From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun Oct 1 03:15:44 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 10:15:44 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Looking for a BA-356 jumper In-Reply-To: <1324.192.168.0.3.1159651300.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <25402.88.211.153.27.1159619299.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <1324.192.168.0.3.1159651300.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <17627.88.211.153.27.1159690544.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello Adrian, I know, I got the docu from a webpage, but I only have a terminator. It misses the jumber board in order to continue the bus on the 2nd half. Regards, Ed > > On Sat, September 30, 2006 1:28 pm, Ed Groenenberg said: >> >> I got a BA-356 with 6 drives ad it came with a dual channel >> personality module. >> >> I want to use it as a single channel tray, and according to >> the user guide it needs a jumper connector. > > Hi Ed, > > The BA356 has its jumper and terminator already installed behind the > blowers, though that it has a dual channel personality module doesn't > necessarily mean the shelf is a split-bus one. If you've powered it up and > it's spun up drives 0, 2, 4 then 1,3,5 etc you just need to swap the > terminator and jumper boards. Remove the blowers on the back and the > jumper cover at the bottom (metal box, it's a pig to remove :o)) then swap > the boards over. > > If I was thinking straight I could tell you how to check which board is > connected where by removing the drives and looking at the backplane, maybe > someone else will do that for me :) > > cheers > > -- > adrian/witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 1 01:37:44 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 02:37:44 -0400 Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: <001301c6e4be$947d8110$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00c901c6e434$04c046a0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <001301c6e4be$947d8110$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <89891904-1187-4683-AECB-673827E64920@neurotica.com> On Sep 30, 2006, at 2:30 PM, Jay West wrote: > Ok, I went there and took a picture, you can see it at http:// > www.ezwind.net/jwest/whatsit/09300001.JPG > > The "aspect ratio" in the picture is misleading. While the front of > the cpu isn't perfectly square, it is more square than the picture > would lead you to believe. In the 3rd party floppy boxes are loads > of WANG label software, as well as customer disks. In the brown box > is about a 1.5 foot long stretch of silver padded WANG binders/ > manuals, many with original software disks. I noticed some stuff > mentioning 2780/3780 communications software which grabbed my > attention. The monitor hooks up to the cpu with an odd "dual din > cable". Two din connectors on each end, one has about 9 pins the > other has about 5 pins. The monitor obviously gets both power and > data on this dual cable. > > The CPU appears to be something called a "Wang Professional > Computer" from what I can glean from the docs. The model tag on the > back is extremely faded black print on silver so it's just a > shadow. It seems to say the model is something vaguely like PM-XC1. > There is an IBM mono "module" which has a part number something > like PM101 and a "winchester controller module" which has a part > number like PM029. > >> From just a 30 second skim of some of the manuals it appears to be >> running a > very customized version of DOS. The proprietary changes to the OS > appear to be more than just cosmetic. Ahh yes, I used to service those. They run DOS but they're not *quite* PC compatible. I LOVE the video on those machines...those little monitors are so wonderfully sharp! They use a proprietary bus, and Wang had quite a few options available for them. They even had the BNC/TNC cable-based interface to connect to the larger Wang OIS and VS systems. Fun machines. Built like tanks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sun Oct 1 04:52:27 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 11:52:27 +0200 Subject: New to the list In-Reply-To: <200608031211.28951.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <44CFD6AE.6080302@gmail.com> <44D1A17B.1020802@oldskool.org> <200608030754240712.503A999B@10.0.0.252> <200608031211.28951.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1159696347.4423.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-08-03 at 12:11 -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Not linux, or at least not to any great extent. Stuff that runs under linux, > KDE and Gnome in particular, yeah. (possibly reviving a dead thread) Can't speak for KDE here, but recent releases of Gnome have been getting very snappy. There have been significant and much-needed(!!) optimizations in the libraries and core applications. gnome-terminal in 2.14 has become significantly faster than xterm(!). Application and desktop startup times are way faster. -toresbe :) From david_comley at yahoo.com Sun Oct 1 06:40:14 2006 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 04:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANG micro? found Message-ID: <20061001114014.5474.qmail@web30604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- From: Jay West To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 3:40:31 PM Subject: Re: WANG micro? found I took more pictures of the unit after removing the chassis. They can be found at: http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/wang The cpu main board is definitely the large L-shaped one that Roy Tellason mentioned. Just eyeballing it, but what kind of backplane connectors are those? They look larger than ISA connectors and appear to be 86 pin. It seems to be quite clean inside and out. Not that I've had much time for classic computers lately, but this one may be interesting for a while :) Jay From david_comley at yahoo.com Sun Oct 1 06:48:19 2006 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 04:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: <000c01c6e4c8$4a5ba530$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20061001114820.62375.qmail@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> These were great machines for their time and were the standard desktop machine at Ford Motor Company in Europe in the early to mid-80's. We had them networked to Wang VS's for e-mail, file and print serving but the most common app in use at that time would have been Wang Word Processing. IIRC Wang made an emulation board that made this look like a normal PC clone. Once Wang started delivering 286's and 386's these became known as Wang Classics to distinguish them from their more mainstream PC clone siblings. Lucky find - I have been looking for one of these forever. -Dave --- Jay West wrote: > I took more pictures of the unit after removing the > chassis. They can be > found at: > > http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/wang > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ajwills at paradise.net.nz Sun Oct 1 07:18:26 2006 From: ajwills at paradise.net.nz (Tony Wills) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 01:18:26 +1300 Subject: Zebra_Design.pdf Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.1.20061002011702.03d151c0@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Did anyone happen to download "Zebra_Design.pdf" "An Outline of the Functional Design of the Stantec Zebra Computer" which was made available on this list in 2002 by Hans Pufal ? Does anyone have other Zebra documentation? Tony. From ajwills at paradise.net.nz Sun Oct 1 07:16:47 2006 From: ajwills at paradise.net.nz (Tony Wills) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 01:16:47 +1300 Subject: Sipke de Wal, xgistor, SC/MP, TI59 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.1.20060930005911.07193870@pop3.paradise.net.nz> References: <6.1.2.0.1.20060929204822.04305210@pop3.paradise.net.nz> <6.1.2.0.1.20060930005911.07193870@pop3.paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.1.20061002010134.03c7ee70@pop3.paradise.net.nz> >At 21:31 29/09/2006, Henk wrote: >>... >>Tony wrote: ... >> > Sipke's TI59-Diag+psu-in-eps.zip >>... >>Just a guess, as a fellow from Holland ... >>Could it be that "in-eps" simply means that the images are >>"in Encapsulated PostScript" ? Thanks to Holger Veit, we now have that file too, and you were right, it contains the diagrams in eps format. Holger also found another half dozen files that were missing so things are looking good. Interestingly some of the TI59 diagrams in the files section are bitmap (.BMP) images that have been zipped, the resulting files are much smaller than the zipped copies of the JPEG versions of the same images. Tony. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Oct 1 08:57:50 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 09:57:50 -0400 Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: <89891904-1187-4683-AECB-673827E64920@neurotica.com> References: <00c901c6e434$04c046a0$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <001301c6e4be$947d8110$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <89891904-1187-4683-AECB-673827E64920@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <451FC95E.8010609@atarimuseum.com> Why is it that Wang equipment is not seen available very often? I just find it interesting that you rarely see many people on the list discussing Wang mini's or Wang workstations. I had the opportunity back in 1991 to install a Novell NACS (Async Comm Server) to a Wang mini so that the company that had it could replace the Wang terminals with PC's running the remote connectivity client and still continue connecting to the Wang mini. Curt Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 30, 2006, at 2:30 PM, Jay West wrote: >> Ok, I went there and took a picture, you can see it at >> http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/whatsit/09300001.JPG >> >> The "aspect ratio" in the picture is misleading. While the front of >> the cpu isn't perfectly square, it is more square than the picture >> would lead you to believe. In the 3rd party floppy boxes are loads of >> WANG label software, as well as customer disks. In the brown box is >> about a 1.5 foot long stretch of silver padded WANG binders/manuals, >> many with original software disks. I noticed some stuff mentioning >> 2780/3780 communications software which grabbed my attention. The >> monitor hooks up to the cpu with an odd "dual din cable". Two din >> connectors on each end, one has about 9 pins the other has about 5 >> pins. The monitor obviously gets both power and data on this dual cable. >> >> The CPU appears to be something called a "Wang Professional Computer" >> from what I can glean from the docs. The model tag on the back is >> extremely faded black print on silver so it's just a shadow. It seems >> to say the model is something vaguely like PM-XC1. There is an IBM >> mono "module" which has a part number something like PM101 and a >> "winchester controller module" which has a part number like PM029. >> >>> From just a 30 second skim of some of the manuals it appears to be >>> running a >> very customized version of DOS. The proprietary changes to the OS >> appear to be more than just cosmetic. > > Ahh yes, I used to service those. They run DOS but they're not > *quite* PC compatible. I LOVE the video on those machines...those > little monitors are so wonderfully sharp! > > They use a proprietary bus, and Wang had quite a few options > available for them. They even had the BNC/TNC cable-based interface > to connect to the larger Wang OIS and VS systems. > > Fun machines. Built like tanks. > > -Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Cape Coral, FL > > > > --No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.10/459 - Release Date: > 9/29/2006 > > From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Sun Oct 1 09:32:14 2006 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Miller, Keven) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 08:32:14 -0600 Subject: 800 bpi tape drive Message-ID: <451FD16E.4040205@reeltapetransfer.com> I'm looking for an 800 bpi readable tape drive, with either HPIB or SCSI connection. (Or option 800 for the HP7980/88780 tape drive, HP part# 07980-60791 NRZI media kit) Any leads would be appreciated. Thanks, Keven Miller From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Oct 1 09:58:17 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 10:58:17 -0400 Subject: A/UX 1.0 was Re: QIC 80 drive needed References: <200608312224.k7VMOpcr017742@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <000801c6e56a$072f1ce0$0b01a8c0@game> Anybody know if A/UX 1.0 was recovered from that tape? Anybody on the list have 1.x available? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 6:24 PM Subject: A/UX 1.0 was Re: QIC 80 drive needed > > > I think I still have them somewhere. It was a/ux 1.0, however, so it's > > > not very interesting. > > > I have 2.1 on CD and 2 copies of 3.x that went with the AWS95, just curious > > on what 1.0 looks like (would have to find a machine to even run it). > > I'd be interested in this as well (run 3.x on my IIci right now). > > -- > --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Make welfare as hard to get as building permits. --------------------------- From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Oct 1 11:40:43 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 12:40:43 -0400 Subject: A/UX 1.0 was Re: QIC 80 drive needed In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 01 Oct 2006 10:58:17 EDT." <000801c6e56a$072f1ce0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200610011640.k91Gejlq013944@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Teo Zenios" wrote: >Anybody know if A/UX 1.0 was recovered from that tape? Anybody on the list >have 1.x available? If you ment me, it turns out it was v0.7. I found the tape and read it. I'm not sure what is there, to be honest. I thought it was the whole kernel source tree but I don't think it is. But then again, I just looked and it does seem to have most everything, just in odd places. Looks like a tar of the root directory. It might boot if you had the macos loader program. I don't have any info on the disk structure, however. Not doubt others could reconstruct it. I don't have any macs that old anymore. As I recall there was a mac program which would set up the proper disk partitions and a stand alone shell (sash) which ran under mac os and a program which would boot a kernel from sysv disk parition, allowing you to enter kernel boot args. While I am a firm believer in copyrights, the archivist in me is going to close it's eyes for a moment: http://www.unlambda.com/download/aux/aux-0.7-bin.tar.gz -brad From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Oct 1 12:26:44 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 13:26:44 -0400 Subject: WANG micro? found Message-ID: <01C6E55D.78582680@MSE_D03> --------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 09:57:50 -0400 From: Curt - Atari Museum Subject: Re: WANG micro? found Why is it that Wang equipment is not seen available very often? I just find it interesting that you rarely see many people on the list discussing Wang mini's or Wang workstations. I had the opportunity back in 1991 to install a Novell NACS (Async Comm Server) to a Wang mini so that the company that had it could replace the Wang terminals with PC's running the remote connectivity client and still continue connecting to the Wang mini. Curt ---------------Reply: Why indeed... Reading from an early '80's VS brochure: "From individual specialized systems design (1951-1964), to the first desktop programmable calculators (1964-1972), to the Company's state-of-the-art family of data processing and word processing office systems, Wang has been a pioneer in the high technology electronics industries." and "As the leading supplier of CRT-based word processing systems, and the number two supplier of small business computing systems, Wang Laboratories carries its reputation proudly into the 1980's" Maybe the name causes problems with porn filters... mike From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 1 12:44:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 10:44:19 -0700 Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: <01C6E55D.78582680@MSE_D03> References: <01C6E55D.78582680@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <200610011044190623.2EECC2A5@10.0.0.252> >Why is it that Wang equipment is not seen available very often? I >just find it interesting that you rarely see many people on the list >discussing Wang mini's or Wang workstations. IIRC, Wang prior to the IBM PC era, kept a very closed system. OS internals, file formats, network protocols, etc. were very hard to come by. Consider also, that Wang found its biggest following in the WP and document segment of the market. Collectors tend not to be interested in old WP equipment as much as general-purpose minis and micros. After the IBM PC came along, there was Multimate, which had the look and feel of the Wang WP software for a system cost that was a fraction of a Wang setup. That really hurt Wang Labs badly. And then there was Fred Wang--probably the biggest mistake the company ever made. He should have read his dad's autobiography. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 1 13:27:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 11:27:57 -0700 Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: <200610011044190623.2EECC2A5@10.0.0.252> References: <01C6E55D.78582680@MSE_D03> <200610011044190623.2EECC2A5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200610011127570969.2F14B60C@10.0.0.252> Forgot to mention that the keyboard I'm typing this on is a Wang-branded IBM model M. Says "Wang" on the top, but "IBM" on the bottom. Manufactured on 6/9/92, right about when Wang was going belly-up. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 1 15:17:57 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 15:17:57 -0500 Subject: hp110+ info References: Message-ID: <008501c6e596$afced260$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote.... >> Do you have any other ROMs in the 'H' sockets? If not, it's possible you >> have a bad buffer chip or something. I do, but it is only the two rom sets that use the H sockets that are not appearing in the PAM list. The roms that do appear, are only using the low sockets. I think that's not a coincidence. > Specifically U5 (74HC245) on the ROM drawer PCB. Octal Bus Transceiver... I guess there are two of them, one for the lower 8 and the one at U5 must be for the upper 8? I am not familiar with that chip. Is there a relatively easy way to test it before just replacing it? Unrelated: I wanted to try the H/L pair chips in a different socket. I chose to remove the BASIC chip and try that one. Upon removal, I noticed the BASIC chip had a bent pin. I figured whoever put it in must not have paid close attention. I put a H/L set (Lotus) in there to check it, and noticed that it bent the same pin on the L chip of the Lotus set. Argh! So I removed the chip and under inspection under a magnifier, I can see that the corresponding hole in the boards "socket" was fouled with something, causing any chip put in there to get that pin pushed up and bent. Yikes. Very careful work under the magnifier cleared the obstruction. I straightened the pin on the BASIC chip and put it back in and it went in fine (and works fine). However, soon as I touched the pin on the L Lotus chip, it broke off (right where the pin becomes narrow). So, I get to try and carefully reattach that pin leg to the chip. Can anyone share broken chip leg repair techniques? I can't attach a tiny segment of wire as a brace - the "socket" on the board is the type where each pin gets it's own socket so a thicker leg probably won't go in. Jay West From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Oct 1 15:25:14 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 16:25:14 -0400 Subject: hp110+ info In-Reply-To: <008501c6e596$afced260$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <008501c6e596$afced260$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200610011625.14700.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 01 October 2006 04:17 pm, Jay West wrote: > Unrelated: I wanted to try the H/L pair chips in a different socket. I > chose to remove the BASIC chip and try that one. Upon removal, I noticed > the BASIC chip had a bent pin. I figured whoever put it in must not have > paid close attention. I put a H/L set (Lotus) in there to check it, and > noticed that it bent the same pin on the L chip of the Lotus set. Argh! So > I removed the chip and under inspection under a magnifier, I can see that > the corresponding hole in the boards "socket" was fouled with something, > causing any chip put in there to get that pin pushed up and bent. Yikes. > Very careful work under the magnifier cleared the obstruction. I > straightened the pin on the BASIC chip and put it back in and it went in > fine (and works fine). However, soon as I touched the pin on the L Lotus > chip, it broke off (right where the pin becomes narrow). So, I get to try > and carefully reattach that pin leg to the chip. Can anyone share broken > chip leg repair techniques? I can't attach a tiny segment of wire as a > brace - the "socket" on the board is the type where each pin gets it's own > socket so a thicker leg probably won't go in. Best thing I can think to suggest there is that you get a socket to plug into the socket, one where the pins coming out the bottom will go into the original socekt and where the holes in the top will accomodate whatever you have to do to get that chip pin repaired... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 1 15:39:32 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 15:39:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Strange modem... Message-ID: <200610012039.k91KdWek046913@keith.ezwind.net> Hi all, Just had a box come today. Inside are around 32 discs from CU Amiga and Amiga Format. I plan to catalogue them along with my other Amiga CD32 stuff during this week (I have the week off). Also in the box is a 56K (Data/Fax/Voice) modem, manufacturer is unknown. It simply states on the front end... "56K V.90/K56 flex" ... with more data on the bottom of the kit: "FCC No.: H52PT-3020 Data: K56 Flex/ITU-T V.90 & ITU-T V.34 MNP 4/5 & V.42/ V.42 bis Fax: G3 14.4K/14.4K Send/Recieve Voice: Simultaneous Audio/Voice & Data; Full-duplex speakerphone mode Power: AC 9V/1A Made in Taiwan" On the front it has two sockets for a mic. and a speaker to be plugged in along with 9 lights for: RD TD CD OH AA HS DTR MR PW I think I know what most of them mean. On the back it has an on/off switch, a power socket, a parallel port style socket (I have necessary cable), line socket and phone socket. I assume the line socket plugs into the phone connection socket, but what's the phone connection for? To plug the phone/fax line in?? I also have Active: Netconnect CD's V2 & V3, so having software to go online shouldn't be a hassle - I just want to upload and download stuff from Aminet (site for storing various Amiga files, utilities, games, patches and more) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Oct 1 15:42:38 2006 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 16:42:38 -0400 Subject: Anyone here from Oregon USA to help with collection pickup? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001163739.02f03c68@mail.degnanco.net> Hi - I have an opportunity to pick up a large collection of vintage computers located in Oregon. I have been told that one would need a truck to get it all in one shot. If there is anyone who lives in or near the "541" area code and is interested in helping, contact me directly and I can give you the details. Thanks. Bill Degnan From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sun Oct 1 16:19:40 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 21:19:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Strange modem... In-Reply-To: <200610012039.k91KdWek046913@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200610012039.k91KdWek046913@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Oct 2006, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Also in the box is a 56K (Data/Fax/Voice) > modem, manufacturer is unknown. It simply > states on the front end... > > "56K V.90/K56 flex" [snip details] Plug it in and ask it ATI1 through ATI9. Ususally the manufafturer's name and model number are in there somewhere. > On the back it has an on/off switch, a power > socket, a parallel port style socket (I have > necessary cable), line socket and phone socket. I hope you mean serial port. It's a DB25F connector, yes? > I assume the line socket plugs into the phone > connection socket, but what's the phone > connection for? To plug the phone/fax line in?? When the modem is offline, the phone socket is connected to the wall socket. When the modem is online, the phone socket is not connected to anything. By plugging your modem into the wall and your phone into the modem, you can share one phone outlet between your phone and modem, with the modem having priority. Alexey From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 1 14:05:35 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 14:05:35 -0500 Subject: WANG micro? found References: <20061001114820.62375.qmail@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003b01c6e58c$98a04420$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> David wrote.... > These were great machines for their time and were the > standard desktop machine at Ford Motor Company in > Europe in the early to mid-80's. Odd, this machine seems a bit large to me to be a standard desktop machine. Maybe built into a desk... but a desktop? Yes, this machine has software on it to interface to Wang VS hosts. But more interesting to me, I noticed that I could boot to a different partition when the machine is in "bios". On that partition is a full development suite, including basic interpreter, basic compiler (both microsoft), Assembler (Microsoft I think), and Pascal compiler. Fun stuff. > Lucky find - I have been looking for one of these > forever. It may be available at some point, especially if you have some interesting stuff to trade :D Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 1 13:58:59 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 13:58:59 -0500 Subject: WANG micro? found References: <01C6E55D.78582680@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <002c01c6e58b$a8159780$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> M H Stein wrote.... > Why is it that Wang equipment is not seen available very often? Because it wasn't all that common. I > just find it interesting that you rarely see many people on the list > discussing Wang mini's or Wang workstations. See above :) Hard to talk about what we don't have! Jay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 1 16:58:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 22:58:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: hp110+ info In-Reply-To: <008501c6e596$afced260$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Oct 1, 6 03:17:57 pm Message-ID: > > Tony wrote.... > >> Do you have any other ROMs in the 'H' sockets? If not, it's possible you > >> have a bad buffer chip or something. > I do, but it is only the two rom sets that use the H sockets that are not > appearing in the PAM list. The roms that do appear, are only using the low > sockets. I think that's not a coincidence. Try moving one of the single ROMs into an 'H' socket. Does it still appear (and work correctly)? Single ROMs can go in any socket, H or L, if the machine is working right. > > > Specifically U5 (74HC245) on the ROM drawer PCB. > Octal Bus Transceiver... I guess there are two of them, one for the lower 8 Correct. I didn't bother to give you the location of the low-byte buffer, I can look it up if you want me to (I have schematics of everything apart from the LCD module, which was bought-in, not made by HP). > and the one at U5 must be for the upper 8? I am not familiar with that chip. > Is there a relatively easy way to test it before just replacing it? It's not going to be easy to test in-circuit. If you desolder it, it should be quite easy to check (grab the data sheet, note that pin 19 must be low to eneable the chip, pin 1 determines which side is input and which is output, and then whatever you apply to the 'input' side should appear on the output side). But if you desolder it, you might as well fit a socket and a new one. [...] > (right where the pin becomes narrow). So, I get to try and carefully > reattach that pin leg to the chip. Can anyone share broken chip leg repair > techniques? I can't attach a tiny segment of wire as a brace - the "socket" > on the board is the type where each pin gets it's own socket so a thicker > leg probably won't go in. What I'd do is find some wire that will go into the sockets on the PCB. Put the end into the appropratie socket, then fit the chip and carefully solder the wire to the stub of the pin. -tony From jrasite at eoni.com Sun Oct 1 17:13:19 2006 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim at work) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 15:13:19 -0700 Subject: Anyone here from Oregon USA to help with collection pickup? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001163739.02f03c68@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <001c01c6e5a6$cd6fb5e0$3500a8c0@supertech> Bill, Just as a heads up... The entire state of Oregon except Portland is the 541 area code. That's a whole lotta real estate. Jim > If there is anyone who lives in or near the "541" area code and is > interested in helping, contact me directly and I can give you the details. > Thanks. > Bill Degnan > > From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Oct 1 17:22:38 2006 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 18:22:38 -0400 Subject: WTD: AT&T 6300 Personal Computer mother bd dip switch map Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001181612.02eeafe8@mail.degnanco.net> Hi - I am attempting to install a CGA card onto a AT&T 6300 Personal Computer. It currently has only a 25-pin CRT port for a terminal dumb terminal (w/o keyboard). I need the dip switch map so I can set for the CGA monitor. The 6300 has a 8086 processor, and it's an OEM system from Olivetti. I assume that the user's guide for the Olivetti 8086 PC would due equally as well. Thanks. Bill D From tosteve at gmail.com Sun Oct 1 18:02:49 2006 From: tosteve at gmail.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 16:02:49 -0700 Subject: Some not-so-rare stuff I want to get rid of - in So Cal. Message-ID: <2e4ce2290610011602n6c6124cen203ff4c47f4ea1de@mail.gmail.com> Folks, Please take this/these away: Working, TRS-80 model II system, with desk, printer, external 8-inch floppy drive system. Looks like this: http://oldcomputers.net/pics/TRS-80-II_table.JPG MUST PICK-UP at zip:92656 (OC) Heathkit H29 video terminal. Atari Jaguar video game system with some carts. Atari Lynx handheld voideo game system with some carts. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 1 18:03:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 16:03:53 -0700 Subject: Anyone here from Oregon USA to help with collection pickup? In-Reply-To: <001c01c6e5a6$cd6fb5e0$3500a8c0@supertech> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001163739.02f03c68@mail.degnanco.net> <001c01c6e5a6$cd6fb5e0$3500a8c0@supertech> Message-ID: <200610011603530735.30115295@10.0.0.252> On 10/1/2006 at 3:13 PM Jim at work wrote: >Just as a heads up... The entire state of Oregon except Portland is the >541 area code. That's a whole lotta real estate. Well, Salem is 503 also. But 541 could be anywhere from the Pacific Ocean, over a couple of mountain ranges and river valleys to the eastern desert.. Cheers, Chuck (in 541, but that's not saying much) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 1 18:03:56 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 00:03:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: WTD: AT&T 6300 Personal Computer mother bd dip switch map In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001181612.02eeafe8@mail.degnanco.net> from "B. Degnan" at Oct 1, 6 06:22:38 pm Message-ID: > > Hi - I am attempting to install a CGA card onto a AT&T 6300 Personal > Computer. It currently has only a 25-pin CRT port for a terminal dumb > terminal (w/o keyboard). I need the dip switch map so I can set for the If that's the machine I think it is, that DB25 is _not_ for a terminal. It's not a seiral port, it's not a parallel port, it's video output for special Olivetti monitors. IIRC there are power lines (at least +12V -- the runoured 70V is a myth!) there as well to power a monochrome monitor. Alas I don't have the pinout or specifications for that connector. -tony From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 1 18:25:50 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 18:25:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Some not-so-rare stuff I want to get rid of - in So Cal. Message-ID: <200610012325.k91NPoFT050236@keith.ezwind.net> --- steven stengel wrote: > Folks, > Please take this/these away: > > Working, TRS-80 model II system, with desk, printe r, > external 8-inch floppy > drive system. Looks like this: > http://oldcomputers.net/pics/TRS-80-II_table.JPG > MUST PICK-UP at zip:92656 (OC) > > Heathkit H29 video terminal. > > Atari Jaguar video game system with some carts. > Atari Lynx handheld voideo game system with some > carts. > Tried to look at the TRS-80 pic, but got a "permission not granted to view this" message! If no-one else wants them, I'll take the Atari Jaguar & Lynx, but I live in the UK so they'll need posting (I'll happily pay for P&P costs). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 1 18:44:23 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 18:44:23 -0500 Subject: WTD: AT&T 6300 Personal Computer mother bd dip switch map In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <452052D7.6050503@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >> Hi - I am attempting to install a CGA card onto a AT&T 6300 Personal >> Computer. It currently has only a 25-pin CRT port for a terminal dumb >> terminal (w/o keyboard). I need the dip switch map so I can set for the > > If that's the machine I think it is, that DB25 is _not_ for a terminal. > It's not a seiral port, it's not a parallel port, it's video output for > special Olivetti monitors. IIRC there are power lines (at least +12V -- > the runoured 70V is a myth!) there as well to power a monochrome monitor. Bingo, that's right. And more sad news for the OP: You cannot install a CGA card in an AT&T PC 6300 (or Olivetti M24 for that matter). There are electronics on that card that are necessary for the operation of the machine. There were EGA cards released that were "compatible" (meaning, inserting them disabled the onboard CGA) but those are few and far between. There was a hardware hack for adding VGA but I've lost it due to time. The DB25 pinout for the monitor is here: http://www.hardwarebook.net/connector/av/attpc6300.html AT&T isn't CGA either; it's 640x400, so I'm not entirely sure if building a db25 to db9 would work... but you could certainly try, since there are 1-to-1 mappings of CGA to the 25 pins in that connector (8 of them are GND for example). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 1 18:44:34 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 19:44:34 -0400 Subject: Anyone here from Oregon USA to help with collection pickup? In-Reply-To: <200610011603530735.30115295@10.0.0.252> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001163739.02f03c68@mail.degnanco.net> <001c01c6e5a6$cd6fb5e0$3500a8c0@supertech> <200610011603530735.30115295@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <452052E2.3020709@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/1/2006 at 3:13 PM Jim at work wrote: > >> Just as a heads up... The entire state of Oregon except Portland is the >> 541 area code. That's a whole lotta real estate. > > Well, Salem is 503 also. But 541 could be anywhere from the Pacific Ocean, > over a couple of mountain ranges and river valleys to the eastern desert.. Isn't there 971 in there somewhere? Peace... Sridhar From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 1 18:48:13 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 18:48:13 -0500 Subject: WTD: AT&T 6300 Personal Computer mother bd dip switch map In-Reply-To: <452052D7.6050503@oldskool.org> References: <452052D7.6050503@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <452053BD.4080501@oldskool.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > And more sad news for the OP: You cannot install > a CGA card in an AT&T PC 6300 (or Olivetti M24 for that matter). Reading my hardware reference, that's not entirely correct; you can install an ADDITIONAL adapter and tell the machine to use that one via DIP switches. I will forward the relevant reference manual pages in another reply, already being composed... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 1 18:57:09 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 18:57:09 -0500 Subject: Some not-so-rare stuff I want to get rid of - in So Cal. References: <200610012325.k91NPoFT050236@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <002f01c6e5b5$5057a400$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Steven wrote.... >> Working, TRS-80 model II system, with desk, printe > r, >> external 8-inch floppy >> drive system. Looks like this: >> http://oldcomputers.net/pics/TRS-80-II_table.JPG >> MUST PICK-UP at zip:92656 (OC) I sure hope someone saves this. Nice system, very retro. I'd take it in a heartbeat if it was in my neck of the woods! Jay From paulrsm at buckeye-express.com Sun Oct 1 19:09:10 2006 From: paulrsm at buckeye-express.com (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 20:09:10 -0400 Subject: KIM-1 7-segment font? References: <200609290457.k8T4vQww026412@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <452058A6.65D75CA3@buckeye-express.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I'm prototyping an LED display thingie and was trying to find a > representation of how folks used to do letters on a 7-segment display. > The two historical examples I came up with were the KIM-1 and a Byte > magazine article between about 1977 and 1981. > what I need is the definitive source for the patterns. For the KIM-1, the only definitive source is the ROM, and that only has patterns for hexadecimal: * HEX-TO-LED SEGMENT CONVERSION TABLE * SAME AS $1FE7 IN THE KIM ROM. DB $BF,$86,$DB,$CF ;0 1 2 3 DB $E6,$ED,$FD,$87 ;4 5 6 7 DB $FF,$EF,$F7,$FC ;8 9 A b DB $B9,$DE,$F9,$F1 ;C d E F As Mr. Veit has written, the First Book of KIM has more letters. Another source is issue 1 of the KIM-6502 User Notes, which has a slightly different alphabet: DB $BD,$F6,$86,$9E ;G H I J DB $B8,$BF,$F3,$ED ;L O P S DB $BE,$EE,$FC,$D8 ;U Y b c DB $DE,$F1,$EF,$F4 ;d f g h DB $84,$9E,$86,$D4 ;i j l n DB $DC,$F3,$D0,$F8 ;o p r t DB $9C,$EE,$C0 ;u y minus DB $F0,$B7,$D4,$E7 ;k m n q DB $BE,$EA,$9C,$94 ;q v w x DB $C9,$D3,$80 ;z ? space You can find the KIM-6502 User Notes at www.6502.org in the publications section. -- Paul R. Santa-Maria Temperance, Michigan USA From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 1 19:14:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 17:14:00 -0700 Subject: Anyone here from Oregon USA to help with collection pickup? In-Reply-To: <452052E2.3020709@gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001163739.02f03c68@mail.degnanco.net> <001c01c6e5a6$cd6fb5e0$3500a8c0@supertech> <200610011603530735.30115295@10.0.0.252> <452052E2.3020709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200610011714000424.305182F6@10.0.0.252> On 10/1/2006 at 7:44 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Isn't there 971 in there somewhere? Yes, but it doesn't cover any new territory. 971 is basically a "new number" overlay code for the 503 area. I wish the telco powers that be would have thought of that scheme when 541 was broken out of the 503 (used to be the entire state) back in the 90's. It would have saved a bunch of printing and mailing costs. Salem (seat of the state government) northwards to the Portland Metro area were the only places to hang onto 503. For a long time, a store in Montreal was getting a bunch of our calls because many PBX's wouldn't handle area codes that didn't have 1 or 0 as the middle digit. So, folks just figured that 541 was an error and that the correct code had to be 514. It's very strange to think of "area codes" in terms of today's technology. I'd have expected that the telcos would have long since assigned everyone their own personal non-area-coded 11 digit universal telephone number. Heck, add a check digit and make it 12 digits, like a credit card. Maybe I'll live long enough to see telephone numbers without country and area codes--but I'm not holding my breath. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 1 20:03:13 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 18:03:13 -0700 Subject: 800 bpi tape drive Message-ID: > I'm looking for an 800 bpi readable tape drive There are six in this lot, which will probably go cheap. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160034789687 From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 1 20:06:33 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 18:06:33 -0700 Subject: ISO HP 88780 schematics Message-ID: Someone promised me copies of these years and years ago, and now now longer returns my emails. I suspect they may have orig come from someone in the Seattle area that had a bunch of 88780's a while back. On the chance this person follows classiccmp, I'm looking for a copy. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Oct 1 22:38:25 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 23:38:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone here from Oregon USA to help with collection pickup? In-Reply-To: <200610011714000424.305182F6@10.0.0.252> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001163739.02f03c68@mail.degnanco.net> <001c01c6e5a6$cd6fb5e0$3500a8c0@supertech> <200610011603530735.30115295@10.0.0.252> <452052E2.3020709@gmail.com> <200610011714000424.305182F6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200610020341.XAA18471@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > It's very strange to think of "area codes" in terms of today's > technology. I'd have expected that the telcos would have long since > assigned everyone their own personal non-area-coded 11 digit > universal telephone number. There would be tremendous privacy issues with having phone numbers forcibly stuck to people (not to mention how it would interact with cases like mine - I "own" four different phone numbers: house land line, house fax line, house data line, and cell line). Besides, it would be routing hell for the telcos - fine initially, but as people move around you'd get the equivalent of what the Internet routing tables would look like if every route were advertised as a /32. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 2 00:06:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 22:06:00 -0700 Subject: Anyone here from Oregon USA to help with collection pickup? In-Reply-To: <200610020341.XAA18471@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001163739.02f03c68@mail.degnanco.net> <001c01c6e5a6$cd6fb5e0$3500a8c0@supertech> <200610011603530735.30115295@10.0.0.252> <452052E2.3020709@gmail.com> <200610011714000424.305182F6@10.0.0.252> <200610020341.XAA18471@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200610012206000564.315CD7E2@10.0.0.252> On 10/1/2006 at 11:38 PM der Mouse wrote: >Besides, it would be routing hell for the telcos - fine initially, but >as people move around you'd get the equivalent of what the Internet >routing tables would look like if every route were advertised as a /32. I know it's OT, but I see the local cable company offering phone service and I've got Skype on my machine. Doesn't the POTS model seem more than a little dated? Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Oct 2 00:23:32 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 00:23:32 -0500 Subject: WTD: AT&T 6300 Personal Computer mother bd dip switch map In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001181612.02eeafe8@mail.degnanco.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001181612.02eeafe8@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <4520A254.1020603@oldskool.org> B. Degnan wrote: > Hi - I am attempting to install a CGA card onto a AT&T 6300 Personal > Computer. It currently has only a 25-pin CRT port for a terminal dumb See previous post; that's the video connector. > terminal (w/o keyboard). I need the dip switch map so I can set for the > CGA monitor. The 6300 has a 8086 processor, and it's an OEM system from > Olivetti. I assume that the user's guide for the Olivetti 8086 PC would > due equally as well. My AT&T 6300 hardware reference manual shows all the settings, but if I attach 100K of .TIFs I think I'll get railroaded by the general populace. Give me an email I can send my scans to. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From root at parse.com Sun Oct 1 11:19:10 2006 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 12:19:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Free to a good home: DEC WT78 + 2xRX02 + Spinwriter + Terminal Message-ID: <200610011619.k91GJAkR003263@amd64.ott.parse.com> Folks, I'm posting this for a friend. Check out the pictures at www.parse.com/~museum/misc/index.html The last two items, the DEC WT78 (with a PDP-8 chip inside!), the RX02 floppy drives, spinwriter, and the terminal, are all free to a good home as per the website. Cheers, -RK -- Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices Realtime Systems Architecture, Consulting, Books and Training at www.parse.com Looking for Digital Equipment Corp. PDP-1 through PDP-15 minicomputers! From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Oct 1 18:49:55 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 01 Oct 2006 16:49:55 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 hard drive questions... Message-ID: <45205423.9030702@msu.edu> I just acquired a TRS-80 Model 16. It came with an external hard drive; model 25-1025, labeled as a "Tandy 10 Meg Disk System". It's a considerably smaller unit than the usual TRS-80 hard drives I've seen -- it looks like it would normally hold a half-height 5.25" MFM drive. Unfortunately, the drive enclosure is empty. I'm not well-versed in the area of TRS-80 drives, so I have a few questions: - Is this drive actually compatible with a Model 16? The limited info I've found seems to hint that this was for a Tandy 2000 or 1000 system. - If it is compatible, what kind of drive goes in the enclosure, and where can I find the proper cable to connect it to the Model 16? (The enclosure has a 20 pin "Data" and a 34-pin "Control" connector on it, looks like a standard ST-506 configuration, while the Model 16 has a single 50-pin connector.) - If the drive isn't compatible, anyone have a compatible one for sale/trade? :) I'd like to try to get Xenix running, I have the installation floppies -- just need something to install it to. I actually work with a guy who ported the Xenix kernel to the Model 16 back in the day, I thought he'd get a kick out of seeing a running system again... Thanks, Josh From philpem at philpem.me.uk Sun Oct 1 18:22:55 2006 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 00:22:55 +0100 Subject: Strange modem... In-Reply-To: <200610012039.k91KdWek046913@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200610012039.k91KdWek046913@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <45204DCF.1070905@philpem.me.uk> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > "FCC No.: H52PT-3020 Plug that into http://www.fcc.gov/oet/fccid/ and you get: Puretek Industrial Co Ltd 4F, No. 14, Lane 235, Pao-Chiao Rd. Hsin Tien City, Taipei Taiwan Given that the first three characters of the FCC ID are the FCC's applicant ID, Puretek's part number for that modem is likely to be PT-3020. BTW, your messages are coming through with Japanese character encoding and it's fudging up the display a bit - can you check the text entry settings on your mail client? -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny philpem at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From paulrsm at buckeye-express.com Mon Oct 2 03:31:00 2006 From: paulrsm at buckeye-express.com (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 04:31:00 -0400 Subject: Digitech 520 protocol analyzer References: <200610011642.k91GgHw7056330@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4520CE44.B643400A@buckeye-express.com> There is a Digitech 520 on eBay http://search.ebay.com/190035403861 A web search says it is a protocol analyzer. Does anyone know anything about it? From kelly at catcorner.org Mon Oct 2 06:36:02 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 07:36:02 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 hard drive questions... Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036192@MEOW.catcorner.org> > Josh Dersch > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 7:50 PM > > - Is this drive actually compatible with a Model 16? The > limited info > I've found seems to hint that this was for a Tandy 2000 or > 1000 system. > Not normally, but it could be used as a secondary drive if you have a 16b HD. > - If it is compatible, what kind of drive goes in the enclosure, and > where can I find the proper cable to connect it to the Model 16? (The > enclosure has a 20 pin "Data" and a 34-pin "Control" connector on it, > looks like a standard ST-506 configuration, while the Model 16 has a > single 50-pin connector.) That enclosure is made for a simple ST-506 drive. It is not meatn to be used as a primary boot drive for a model 16. > - If the drive isn't compatible, anyone have a compatible one for > sale/trade? :) > They're pretty rare, especailly in working condition. I have a couple of the big 50 pin units, but they're all in non-working order. You can replace the hard drive in them with just about any ST-506 drive with a few modifications. They are alsmost identical in interface with a WD1000-HDO card. > I'd like to try to get Xenix running, I have the installation > floppies > -- just need something to install it to. I actually work > with a guy who > ported the Xenix kernel to the Model 16 back in the day, I > thought he'd > get a kick out of seeing a running system again... You also need to verify that it has the latest PAL upgrade to run Xenix 3.1 or higher. See the short reference at: http://www.catcorner.org/xenix Kelly From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 2 09:21:51 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 07:21:51 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 hard drive questions... In-Reply-To: <45205423.9030702@msu.edu> Message-ID: >From: Josh Dersch > >I just acquired a TRS-80 Model 16. It came with an external hard drive; >model 25-1025, labeled as a "Tandy 10 Meg Disk System". It's a >considerably smaller unit than the usual TRS-80 hard drives I've seen -- it >looks like it would normally hold a half-height 5.25" MFM drive. >Unfortunately, the drive enclosure is empty. > >I'm not well-versed in the area of TRS-80 drives, so I have a few >questions: > >- Is this drive actually compatible with a Model 16? The limited info I've >found seems to hint that this was for a Tandy 2000 or 1000 system. Hi I don't think it is compatable without a controller. The 50 pin connector is just a bus connector and has no controller. The older drive boxes, you recall as being bigger, are bigger because they contain the controller. The 20/34 pin connector assumes that it came from a controller in the main CPU box. I've seen a few of the older boxes show up on ebay. They use a circuit similar to a WD1000 as mentioned by another. The firmware seems to be identical. I've been using one of these controllers to run a ST251 and it even seems to handle the auto stepping. The tandy box had a few connections to the drive to run the lights on the front pannel but I'm not using those. If you can find a WD1000 controller or a older 10Meg drive box, it would most likely work. You do need to match the number of cyclinders and heads with what that software expects if you use a different drive. I don't recall what the original drive had. If the controller is bad, they are relatively easy to trouble shoot but if one of the WD100X chips is bad, they are hard to find but available for a price from obsolete part dealer. In any case, you'll need either an original drive box or a controller board. Dwight >- If it is compatible, what kind of drive goes in the enclosure, and where >can I find the proper cable to connect it to the Model 16? (The enclosure >has a 20 pin "Data" and a 34-pin "Control" connector on it, looks like a >standard ST-506 configuration, while the Model 16 has a single 50-pin >connector.) >- If the drive isn't compatible, anyone have a compatible one for >sale/trade? :) > >I'd like to try to get Xenix running, I have the installation floppies -- >just need something to install it to. I actually work with a guy who >ported the Xenix kernel to the Model 16 back in the day, I thought he'd get >a kick out of seeing a running system again... > >Thanks, >Josh From david_comley at yahoo.com Mon Oct 2 09:24:09 2006 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 07:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: <003b01c6e58c$98a04420$6800a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20061002142409.19816.qmail@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jay West wrote: > Odd, this machine seems a bit large to me to be a > standard desktop machine. > Maybe built into a desk... but a desktop? You're right, the box would have been desk-side, on the floor. I use the term 'desktop' in its loosest sense. A lot of folks where I worked had swing-arm mounts for the monitor so the keyboard would have been the only item that required desktop space. > It may be available at some point, especially if you > have some interesting > stuff to trade :D Let me know if you decide to divest yourself of it ! -Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Oct 2 10:17:45 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 11:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone here from Oregon USA to help with collection pickup? In-Reply-To: <200610012206000564.315CD7E2@10.0.0.252> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001163739.02f03c68@mail.degnanco.net> <001c01c6e5a6$cd6fb5e0$3500a8c0@supertech> <200610011603530735.30115295@10.0.0.252> <452052E2.3020709@gmail.com> <200610011714000424.305182F6@10.0.0.252> <200610020341.XAA18471@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200610012206000564.315CD7E2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200610021527.LAA00940@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Besides, it would be routing hell for the telcos - fine initially, >> but as people move around you'd get the equivalent of what the >> Internet routing tables would look like if every route were >> advertised as a /32. > I know it's OT, but I see the local cable company offering phone > service and I've got Skype on my machine. Doesn't the POTS model > seem more than a little dated? POTS is a way of delivering the last mile for telephone service. It has no bearing whatever on routing calls between switches. (There was a time when trunks between switches were many copper pairs. That time is long, long gone.) VoIP - or more properly VoI, as VoIP has existed for a much longer time than most people recognize - doesn't really affect this. If it interacts with the PSTN (in particular, if it shares phone numbers with the PSTN), then my remarks about call routing apply. And if not, whatever it uses in place of PSTN-compatible numbers have the same routing issues, so my remarks about call routing still apply. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From kelly at catcorner.org Mon Oct 2 10:30:30 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 11:30:30 -0400 Subject: Tandy 600 BASIC Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3754C@MEOW.catcorner.org> Does anyone have a dump of the BASIC ROM so that it can be recreated? What is the pinout of the socket? Thanks, Kelly From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 2 11:01:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 09:01:32 -0700 Subject: POTS; was: Anyone here from Oregon USA to help with collection pickup? In-Reply-To: <200610021527.LAA00940@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001163739.02f03c68@mail.degnanco.net> <001c01c6e5a6$cd6fb5e0$3500a8c0@supertech> <200610011603530735.30115295@10.0.0.252> <452052E2.3020709@gmail.com> <200610011714000424.305182F6@10.0.0.252> <200610020341.XAA18471@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200610012206000564.315CD7E2@10.0.0.252> <200610021527.LAA00940@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200610020901320588.33B50043@10.0.0.252> On 10/2/2006 at 11:17 AM der Mouse wrote: >POTS is a way of delivering the last mile for telephone service. It >has no bearing whatever on routing calls between switches. (There was >a time when trunks between switches were many copper pairs. That time >is long, long gone.) That's why I said "POTS model" :) There's a "Temple of Qwest" consisting of several very large boxes erected a couple of years ago on a concrete pad that's located at a corner of my property here. It services heaven only knows how many thousand pairs--in my case, "the last mile" is only about 400 ft. I get great DSL, yet the CO is somewhere around 7 wire miles away--so I've got a pretty good idea of what's inside the temple. No, my comment referred to the mechanism used to address individual subscribers and the quaint hierarchy of country, area and local exchange prefixes. "Long long time" is relative. I recall that sections of Sunnyvale (in the middle of Silicon Valley) north of El Camino were serviced by a type 2 crossbar switch well into the 80's. For me, that's recent history. I still have the location of an old coaxial toll line marked by warning signs nailed to old tree stumps for the "Pacific Telephone and Telegraph Company" that crosses my property. Near the property line, there's an access point where you can clearly see a pair of coaxial lines tie into a terminal block. And the coax replaced an even older surface line--I can still find glass insulators and bits of iron pole hardware in the soil aong the route. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 2 11:15:59 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 12:15:59 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 hard drive questions... In-Reply-To: <45205423.9030702@msu.edu> References: <45205423.9030702@msu.edu> Message-ID: On Oct 1, 2006, at 7:49 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I'd like to try to get Xenix running, I have the installation > floppies -- just need something to install it to. I actually work > with a guy who ported the Xenix kernel to the Model 16 back in the > day, I thought he'd get a kick out of seeing a running system again... I can't help you with your hard drive problem (I'm not well-versed in TRS-80 hard drives either) but I have a Model 16 here in pieces that I will eventually get working. I'd love to have copies of those Xenix floppies...Do you (or will you) have a way to image them? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Oct 2 11:48:30 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 12:48:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: POTS; was: Anyone here from Oregon USA to help with collection pickup? In-Reply-To: <200610020901320588.33B50043@10.0.0.252> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001163739.02f03c68@mail.degnanco.net> <001c01c6e5a6$cd6fb5e0$3500a8c0@supertech> <200610011603530735.30115295@10.0.0.252> <452052E2.3020709@gmail.com> <200610011714000424.305182F6@10.0.0.252> <200610020341.XAA18471@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200610012206000564.315CD7E2@10.0.0.252> <200610021527.LAA00940@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200610020901320588.33B50043@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200610021700.NAA01515@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > No, my comment referred to the mechanism used to address individual > subscribers and the quaint hierarchy of country, area and local > exchange prefixes. So did mine. Basically, I see three reasons to not give individuals individual phone numbers which stick to the individual. One is that the individual -> phone number mapping is neither one-to-one nor onto, and many of the reasons why this is so would not go away; two is the privacy and related concerns; three is hat we don't know how to route even 1e9, much less 1e11, individual addresses worldwide when there's no topological hierarchy available to simplify the problem (note that both the large routing networks in operation today, the Internet and the PSTN, use hierarchical routing in some form). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Oct 2 12:05:38 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 10:05:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Build-It-Yourself Workshops Message-ID: Just a quick note to let everyone know of the workshops we've added to the VCF this year. These workshops feature vintage computing kits that you build yourself, guided by the people who designed the kits. So far we've announced workshops for the XGameStation Pico Edition run by its designer Andre' LaMothe, and a COSMAC Elf 2000 (as featured on the cover of Nuts & Volts last month) run by its designer Bob Armstrong. Very soon I'll be announcing a third workshop run by Vince Briel to build his new Replica-1. These workshops are an excellent way for people who have always been interested in hardware but never had a practical environment for experimenting to pick up some new skills from top notch engineers, and some nice new toys (that you build yourself!) in the process. To read about the workshops, go here: http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/workshop.php There is a registration button for each workshop on its respective page. Payment is via PayPal (from your account funds or credit card). The workshops are scheduled at different times so the really adventurous can go to all of them ;) Vince's Replica-1 workshop will be going up very soon. A full VCF update will be coming out this week, with the current speaker schedule and more information on the first Vintage Computer Film Festival. Remember, Woz will be there, along with a bevy of other early Apple employees and founders for our 30th anniversary celebration of the birth of Apple. I'd also like to see some more exhibits get registered :) E-mail me with any questions you might have. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From kelly at catcorner.org Mon Oct 2 12:18:01 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 13:18:01 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 hard drive questions... Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3754D@MEOW.catcorner.org> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Dave McGuire Sent: Mon 10/2/2006 12:15 PM > I can't help you with your hard drive problem (I'm not well-versed > in TRS-80 hard drives either) but I have a Model 16 here in pieces > that I will eventually get working. I'd love to have copies of those > Xenix floppies...Do you (or will you) have a way to image them? Disk images at my site: http://www.catcorner.org/Xenix Two different sets, Made with image disk, and with CW2DMK: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm http://www.tim-mann.org/catweasel.html use ImageDisk 1.12 (at the top of Dave's page), or DMK2CW on Tim Mann's page. These images work with 8" DS/DD floppies and 5.25" DS/HD floppies. Tandy 5.25" adapter made according to http://nemesis.lonestar.org/computers/tandy/hardware/model16_6000/floppyfix.html PC Adapter to 8" made according Dave's instructions at: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/cnct.htm Kelly From spc at conman.org Mon Oct 2 12:44:48 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 13:44:48 -0400 Subject: POTS; was: Anyone here from Oregon USA to help with collection pickup? In-Reply-To: <200610021700.NAA01515@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001163739.02f03c68@mail.degnanco.net> <001c01c6e5a6$cd6fb5e0$3500a8c0@supertech> <200610011603530735.30115295@10.0.0.252> <452052E2.3020709@gmail.com> <200610011714000424.305182F6@10.0.0.252> <200610020341.XAA18471@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200610012206000564.315CD7E2@10.0.0.252> <200610021527.LAA00940@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200610020901320588.33B50043@10.0.0.252> <200610021700.NAA01515@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20061002174448.GC6514@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > No, my comment referred to the mechanism used to address individual > > subscribers and the quaint hierarchy of country, area and local > > exchange prefixes. > > So did mine. Basically, I see three reasons to not give individuals > individual phone numbers which stick to the individual. One is that > the individual -> phone number mapping is neither one-to-one nor onto, > and many of the reasons why this is so would not go away; two is the > privacy and related concerns; three is hat we don't know how to route > even 1e9, much less 1e11, individual addresses worldwide when there's > no topological hierarchy available to simplify the problem (note that > both the large routing networks in operation today, the Internet and > the PSTN, use hierarchical routing in some form). But what about cell phones and roaming? Last year I went to Las Vegas with a friend of mine. My cell phone is in the 561 area code (Palm Beach County), my friend's phone is in the 205 area code (Tuscaloosa, Alabama). Las Vegas is 702. My Dad was able to call me (760) while I was in Las Vegas, and I was able to call my friend (205 area code, although phyically five feet away) from my cell phone. How do they handle *that*? -spc (Given the horror stories I've heard about phone switch technology, I'm amazed it all even works ... ) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 2 13:07:05 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 14:07:05 -0400 Subject: POTS; was: Anyone here from Oregon USA to help with collection pickup? In-Reply-To: <200610021700.NAA01515@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001163739.02f03c68@mail.degnanco.net> <001c01c6e5a6$cd6fb5e0$3500a8c0@supertech> <200610011603530735.30115295@10.0.0.252> <452052E2.3020709@gmail.com> <200610011714000424.305182F6@10.0.0.252> <200610020341.XAA18471@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200610012206000564.315CD7E2@10.0.0.252> <200610021527.LAA00940@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200610020901320588.33B50043@10.0.0.252> <200610021700.NAA01515@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: > So did mine. Basically, I see three reasons to not give individuals > individual phone numbers which stick to the individual. One is that > the individual -> phone number mapping is neither one-to-one It somewhat looks like this is happening quite well in our cellphone based society. > two is the privacy and related concerns; Is the snail mail system different in any way? These concerns can be handled reasonably, even for the over-the-top privacy types. > three is hat we don't know how to route > even 1e9, much less 1e11, individual addresses worldwide The cellphone guys are doing a pretty good job. > when there's > no topological hierarchy available to simplify the problem (note that > both the large routing networks in operation today, the Internet and > the PSTN, use hierarchical routing in some form). There is still some hierarchy, but noweher near as there used to be. Most of Notes on the Network is obsolete (or getting there fast). -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 2 13:12:53 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 14:12:53 -0400 Subject: POTS; was: Anyone here from Oregon USA to help with collection pickup? In-Reply-To: <20061002174448.GC6514@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001163739.02f03c68@mail.degnanco.net> <200610011603530735.30115295@10.0.0.252> <452052E2.3020709@gmail.com> <200610011714000424.305182F6@10.0.0.252> <200610020341.XAA18471@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200610012206000564.315CD7E2@10.0.0.252> <200610021527.LAA00940@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200610020901320588.33B50043@10.0.0.252> <200610021700.NAA01515@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20061002174448.GC6514@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: > -spc (Given the horror stories I've heard about phone switch technology, > I'm amazed it all even works ... ) Very amazing, it was. I am not sure if "horror stories" is right - most of the old Bell guys really admired the stuff. The system was extremely well thought out, considering it was barely above relay technology. If you can get a copy of Notes on the Network, do so - it explains it all, or rather how it used to work. The big binders are quite hard to find, as they never were to be released to the public. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 2 13:22:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 11:22:03 -0700 Subject: VCF Build-It-Yourself Workshops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200610021122030922.3435A728@10.0.0.252> On 10/2/2006 at 10:05 AM Sellam Ismail wrote: >These workshops feature vintage computing kits that you build yourself, >guided by the people who designed the kits. Great idea, Sellam! One question, though--how much of a "kit" does one of these things have to be? Would an FPGA development kit qualify, given that one can implement any number of antique CPU architectures in one? Just curious is all. Cheers, Chuck From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Oct 2 13:36:47 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 18:36:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: POTS; was: Anyone here from Oregon USA to help with collection pickup? In-Reply-To: <20061002174448.GC6514@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001163739.02f03c68@mail.degnanco.net> <001c01c6e5a6$cd6fb5e0$3500a8c0@supertech> <200610011603530735.30115295@10.0.0.252> <452052E2.3020709@gmail.com> <200610011714000424.305182F6@10.0.0.252> <200610020341.XAA18471@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200610012206000564.315CD7E2@10.0.0.252> <200610021527.LAA00940@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200610020901320588.33B50043@10.0.0.252> <200610021700.NAA01515@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20061002174448.GC6514@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Oct 2006, Sean Conner wrote: > But what about cell phones and roaming? Last year I went to Las Vegas > with a friend of mine. My cell phone is in the 561 area code (Palm Beach > County), my friend's phone is in the 205 area code (Tuscaloosa, Alabama). > Las Vegas is 702. My Dad was able to call me (760) while I was in Las > Vegas, and I was able to call my friend (205 area code, although phyically > five feet away) from my cell phone. > > How do they handle *that*? This is getting dangerously OT, but what the hell, I used to test these things :-) All calls from the PSTN to a particular cell number go to that number's 'home' switch. This switch owns the enclosing block of numbers in the PSTN sense. It also keeps track of which switch is the 'serving' switch for a particular subscriber at any time. When your phone moves into a new location area, it preforms a location updating procedure; this procedure places the phone into the serving switch's list of visitors, the serving switch then lets the home switch know the current serving switch's address, and the home switch tells the old serving switch to purge the number from it's list of visitors. When a call comes in for a cell subscriber, the PSTN routes it to the home switch based on the number alone; the home switch looks up the address of the serving switch for this subscriber in it's database and routes the call to the serving switch, which then delivers it to the phone. Calls from the cell phone are usually handled directly by the serving switch (i.e. they're sent into the PSTN and if the recipient is also a cell number the call delivery procedure above is used by the recipient's home switch). As a result, your mobile-to mobile call with both of you roaming can have either 2 to 4 legs (maybe more if forwarding is in use). It's 2 legs (you -> serving switch -> your buddy) if you're on the same serving switch and it can figure out that the call recipient is on the same switch as the sender. It's 4 legs (you -> your serving switch -PSTN-> your buddy's home switch -PSTN-> your buddy's serving switch -> your buddy) if you're not on the same serving switch or your serving switch doesn't have enough information to figure out that it's also your buddy's serving switch. More or less the same thing is done for number portability, except there can be 3 switches: the switch that owns the number in the PSTN sense, the switch that is the new 'home' and tracks the location of the phone, and the serving switch to which the phone is actually talking. The owns number switch to new home switch mapping is static (updated by people, not software) and the protocols used for number portability are not the same as those used for roaming, but the idea is basically the same. Now take that explanation, stir in tons of telco jargon, make it about 5 times more complicated due to various features (call forwarding, anyone?), route optimizations (saving money on trunk use is a big deal for carriers) and security procedures, and you'll get what's actually going on :-P Alexey From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Oct 2 13:43:30 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 14:43:30 -0400 Subject: VCF Build-It-Yourself Workshops In-Reply-To: <200610021122030922.3435A728@10.0.0.252> References: <200610021122030922.3435A728@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <7E0C956F-FCFC-4B4B-A221-00A1F28F91DC@xlisper.com> > Would an FPGA development kit qualify, given that one can implement > any number of antique CPU architectures in one? I would *love* to assemble an FPGA kit that allowed me to experiment with various classic architectures (and maybe some modern ones!). Sign me up if you decide to have one! From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 2 14:54:53 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 14:54:53 -0500 Subject: POTS; was: Anyone here from Oregon USA to help with collection pickup? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001163739.02f03c68@mail.degnanco.net><001c01c6e5a6$cd6fb5e0$3500a8c0@supertech><200610011603530735.30115295@10.0.0.252><452052E2.3020709@gmail.com> <200610011714000424.305182F6@10.0.0.252><200610020341.XAA18471@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><200610012206000564.315CD7E2@10.0.0.252><200610021527.LAA00940@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><200610020901320588.33B50043@10.0.0.252><200610021700.NAA01515@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA><20061002174448.GC6514@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <001101c6e65c$a18670c0$6700a8c0@BILLING> It was written.... > This is getting dangerously OT.... Yes, it is. It was actually off-topic from the first post ;) Jay From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Oct 2 17:06:54 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 18:06:54 -0400 Subject: couple of things Message-ID: <200610021806.54710.rtellason@verizon.net> I saw some mention in here about old HDs and such -- if anybody's in need of the ribbon cables to hook those up with, either pin-type or edge-connectors I have a pile of them. I also saw mention of a "Spinwriter". If somebody's looking for one of these, I have one sitting in a storage unit, though I will need some money to change hands for the owner of said unit to allow for its removal... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rkaumeier at earthlink.net Mon Oct 2 13:24:05 2006 From: rkaumeier at earthlink.net (Rick Kaumeier) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 12:24:05 -0600 (GMT-06:00) Subject: FA: Casio CM-100 Computer Math Calculator Message-ID: <27419349.1159813445987.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Dug out of the cruft in my desk - a CM-100 calculator in excellent condition. It's excess to my needs, so I've listed it on that great online dumping ground. eBay auction # 140036817700, no reserve. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 2 17:31:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 15:31:28 -0700 Subject: VCF Build-It-Yourself Workshops In-Reply-To: <7E0C956F-FCFC-4B4B-A221-00A1F28F91DC@xlisper.com> References: <200610021122030922.3435A728@10.0.0.252> <7E0C956F-FCFC-4B4B-A221-00A1F28F91DC@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <200610021531280965.3519FF7B@10.0.0.252> On 10/2/2006 at 2:43 PM David Betz wrote: >I would *love* to assemble an FPGA kit that allowed me to experiment >with various classic architectures (and maybe some modern ones!). >Sign me up if you decide to have one! Golly, folks have been doing this for quite awhile. The XESS kits seem to be very popular. There was/is even a fellow who was offering a pin-compatible Z80 replacement implemented in FPGA. Here's one of the lists I've found: http://members.optusnet.com.au/jekent/FPGA.htm What's not really clear to me is what the practical difference is between implementing a classic CPU in FPGA and writing an emulator for on to run on a PeeCee. As someone on the list has mentioned, it's really the old peripherals that are the interesting bit. Cheers, Chuck From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Oct 2 18:31:16 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 18:31:16 -0500 Subject: couple of things In-Reply-To: <200610021806.54710.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061002182946.0db00310@localhost> At 06:06 PM 10/2/2006 -0400, you wrote: >I saw some mention in here about old HDs and such -- if anybody's in need of > >I also saw mention of a "Spinwriter". If somebody's looking for one of >these, >I have one sitting in a storage unit, though I will need some money to >change hands for the owner of said unit to allow for its removal... I should check and see if I still have the spinwriter thimbles I used to have in storage. Someone may want them. >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can >be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" Dude, change your signature. We've all seen it. Although Heinlein was a master... [Acting] I love acting. It is so much more real than life. --Oscar Wilde --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Oct 2 20:25:55 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 21:25:55 -0400 Subject: VCF Build-It-Yourself Workshops In-Reply-To: <200610021531280965.3519FF7B@10.0.0.252> References: <200610021122030922.3435A728@10.0.0.252> <7E0C956F-FCFC-4B4B-A221-00A1F28F91DC@xlisper.com> <200610021531280965.3519FF7B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > On 10/2/2006 at 2:43 PM David Betz wrote: > >> I would *love* to assemble an FPGA kit that allowed me to experiment >> with various classic architectures (and maybe some modern ones!). >> Sign me up if you decide to have one! > > Golly, folks have been doing this for quite awhile. The XESS kits > seem to > be very popular. There was/is even a fellow who was offering a > pin-compatible Z80 replacement implemented in FPGA. Yes, I know people have been doing it for a while. I was thinking that you were suggesting a built-it-yourself session where participants would learn how to do it themselves. I'm a software guy and could easily write a software emulator but have less experience with doing hardware design. I'd love some pointers on how to implement a CPU in an FPGA. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Oct 2 21:01:21 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 22:01:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: POTS; was: Anyone here from Oregon USA to help with collection pickup? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001163739.02f03c68@mail.degnanco.net> <001c01c6e5a6$cd6fb5e0$3500a8c0@supertech> <200610011603530735.30115295@10.0.0.252> <452052E2.3020709@gmail.com> <200610011714000424.305182F6@10.0.0.252> <200610020341.XAA18471@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200610012206000564.315CD7E2@10.0.0.252> <200610021527.LAA00940@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200610020901320588.33B50043@10.0.0.252> <200610021700.NAA01515@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20061002174448.GC6514@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <200610030210.WAA10737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> But what about cell phones and roaming? [...] I suspect that this works only because most cellphones are not roaming at any given moment. (To those who know - can the cellphone system handle having more than a small fraction of the cellphones roaming?) I also note that this works only because each cellphone *has* a "home". Individual portable phone numbers might work if handled similarly, but it would make service for an individual's phone number dependent on a switch that the individual may not have any particular relation to at all (and, depending on how numbers are assigned, may never have had). If I lose service when the switch down the street is knocked out, I find that a lot more tolerable than if, say, I lose service whenever some switch off in Germany, which I've never lived near, dies. Of course, PSTN facilities are supposed to have five nines of uptime. Five minutes a year is probably livable, even if you square it (ten minutes a year) because two mostly unrelated hops (caller -> home switch -> current switch) are involved. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 2 22:07:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 20:07:02 -0700 Subject: VCF Build-It-Yourself Workshops In-Reply-To: References: <200610021122030922.3435A728@10.0.0.252> <7E0C956F-FCFC-4B4B-A221-00A1F28F91DC@xlisper.com> <200610021531280965.3519FF7B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200610022007020086.3616437D@10.0.0.252> On 10/2/2006 at 9:25 PM David Betz wrote: >Yes, I know people have been doing it for a while. I was thinking >that you were suggesting a built-it-yourself session where >participants would learn how to do it themselves. I'm a software guy >and could easily write a software emulator but have less experience >with doing hardware design. I'd love some pointers on how to >implement a CPU in an FPGA. Me too. But I figure that I'm just going to have to get an XESS kit or the like and jump in with both feet. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 2 22:15:55 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 22:15:55 -0500 Subject: naval jelly Message-ID: <001501c6e69a$3ee847c0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I've always had incredibly good success using naval jelly on spot rust. I haven't used it in quite a few years though. Anyone else use this a lot and have a good (cheap) source lined up that they'd care to share the contact info for? Maybe if enough folks are interested we could split a case or something. Jay West From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 2 22:18:25 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 20:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: naval jelly In-Reply-To: <001501c6e69a$3ee847c0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from Jay West at "Oct 2, 6 10:15:55 pm" Message-ID: <200610030318.k933IP8M011332@floodgap.com> > I've always had incredibly good success using naval jelly on spot rust. I tried navel lint once. That didn't work so well though. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The best things in life are sold out. -------------------------------------- From evan at snarc.net Mon Oct 2 22:35:30 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 23:35:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Test, please ignore Message-ID: <3387.68.197.170.207.1159846530.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Just a test. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 2 22:48:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 20:48:03 -0700 Subject: naval jelly In-Reply-To: <001501c6e69a$3ee847c0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001501c6e69a$3ee847c0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200610022048030505.363BD268@10.0.0.252> On 10/2/2006 at 10:15 PM Jay West wrote: >I've always had incredibly good success using naval jelly on spot rust. I >haven't used it in quite a few years though. Anyone else use this a lot >and >have a good (cheap) source lined up that they'd care to share the contact >info for? Maybe if enough folks are interested we could split a case or >something. I'm familiar with the stuff but would never really consider using it on electronics gear--it's basically phosphoric and sulfuric acids with some detergent and silica as a polishing agent. The "jelly" is nothing more than Xanthan gum (also used to thicken salad dressing). Surely, there must be safer ways to clear away rust! Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 2 22:55:21 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 22:55:21 -0500 Subject: naval jelly References: <001501c6e69a$3ee847c0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200610022048030505.363BD268@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <005b01c6e69f$c22b1630$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Chuck wrote.... > I'm familiar with the stuff but would never really consider using it on > electronics gear I wasn't planning on using it on circuit boards! I was thinking of using it on metal panels, racks, etc. >--it's basically phosphoric and sulfuric acids with some > detergent and silica as a polishing agent. The "jelly" is nothing more > than Xanthan gum (also used to thicken salad dressing). Odd, for many years I used Naval Jelly to clean rust off cans in my beer can collection. I never once saw it take any paint off, and I used it on some pretty fragile old cans. It worked wonderfully without messing up the paint. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 2 23:48:22 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 21:48:22 -0700 Subject: naval jelly In-Reply-To: <005b01c6e69f$c22b1630$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001501c6e69a$3ee847c0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200610022048030505.363BD268@10.0.0.252> <005b01c6e69f$c22b1630$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200610022148220779.36730C33@10.0.0.252> On 10/2/2006 at 10:55 PM Jay West wrote: >Odd, for many years I used Naval Jelly to clean rust off cans in my beer >can collection. I never once saw it take any paint off, and I used it on some >pretty fragile old cans. It worked wonderfully without messing up the >paint. I'm sure it did. But Naval Jelly is a very old product and not very safe. There are better, safer, preparations. I've got a friend who runs an antique auto restoration business. He says that he uses the Eastwood products: http://www.offroaders.com/shop/rust.htm Maybe there's something there that might do the job for you. FWIW, Chuck From derschjo at msu.edu Mon Oct 2 18:07:53 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 16:07:53 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 hard drive questions... In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036192@MEOW.catcorner.org> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036192@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <45219BC9.4050105@msu.edu> Thanks for all of the helpful responses to my questions -- looks like I'll start watching out for either a WD1000 controller or an original 50-pin external drive. If anyone out there has one they're willing to part with (sale/trade/barter/human souls/etc.), working or otherwise, please let me know :). As regards the PAL upgrade for Xenix, I checked out the site (http://www.catcorner.org/xenix), but it mentions looking for a PAL at U36 -- on my board there's no PAL at U36, but there is one at U34. I assume that this is because the site is referring to a Model 6000 and that there are differences between the 68k boards of a 6000 and a 16? The PAL at U34 has a checksum of 34063E stamped on it. Does the 16 require the same PAL upgrade as the 6000 in order to run newer Xenix versions? Where might I find one? Thanks once again... Josh Kelly Leavitt wrote: >> Josh Dersch >> Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 7:50 PM >> > > >> - Is this drive actually compatible with a Model 16? The >> limited info >> I've found seems to hint that this was for a Tandy 2000 or >> 1000 system. >> >> > Not normally, but it could be used as a secondary drive if you have a 16b HD. > > >> - If it is compatible, what kind of drive goes in the enclosure, and >> where can I find the proper cable to connect it to the Model 16? (The >> enclosure has a 20 pin "Data" and a 34-pin "Control" connector on it, >> looks like a standard ST-506 configuration, while the Model 16 has a >> single 50-pin connector.) >> > That enclosure is made for a simple ST-506 drive. It is not meatn to be used as a primary boot drive for a model 16. > > >> - If the drive isn't compatible, anyone have a compatible one for >> sale/trade? :) >> >> > They're pretty rare, especailly in working condition. I have a couple of the big 50 pin units, but they're all in non-working order. You can replace the hard drive in them with just about any ST-506 drive with a few modifications. They are alsmost identical in interface with a WD1000-HDO card. > > >> I'd like to try to get Xenix running, I have the installation >> floppies >> -- just need something to install it to. I actually work >> with a guy who >> ported the Xenix kernel to the Model 16 back in the day, I >> thought he'd >> get a kick out of seeing a running system again... >> > You also need to verify that it has the latest PAL upgrade to run Xenix 3.1 or higher. See the short reference at: http://www.catcorner.org/xenix > > Kelly > > > > From derschjo at msu.edu Mon Oct 2 22:04:24 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 20:04:24 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 hard drive questions... In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3754D@MEOW.catcorner.org> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3754D@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <4521D338.5070802@msu.edu> Are there disk images for earlier versions of Model 16 Xenix available on the 'net? My Model 16 came with 2.3A, and it's not looking like I'll be able to run 3.0 or greater unless I find a new CPU board. (After doing some research and examining the hardware I have more closely, it turns out I have a 68k CPU board which cannot be upgraded.) I'm putting together a PC that I can use to read/write 8" floppies so when I get that finished I can make images of my copy of 2.3A, if they don't already exist... Josh Kelly Leavitt wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Dave McGuire > Sent: Mon 10/2/2006 12:15 PM > >> I can't help you with your hard drive problem (I'm not well-versed >> in TRS-80 hard drives either) but I have a Model 16 here in pieces >> that I will eventually get working. I'd love to have copies of those >> Xenix floppies...Do you (or will you) have a way to image them? >> > > Disk images at my site: > > http://www.catcorner.org/Xenix > > Two different sets, Made with image disk, and with CW2DMK: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm > http://www.tim-mann.org/catweasel.html > > use ImageDisk 1.12 (at the top of Dave's page), or DMK2CW on Tim Mann's page. > > These images work with 8" DS/DD floppies and 5.25" DS/HD floppies. > > Tandy 5.25" adapter made according to http://nemesis.lonestar.org/computers/tandy/hardware/model16_6000/floppyfix.html > > PC Adapter to 8" made according Dave's instructions at: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/cnct.htm > > Kelly > > From derschjo at msu.edu Mon Oct 2 23:01:39 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 21:01:39 -0700 Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: <20061001114820.62375.qmail@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20061001114820.62375.qmail@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4521E0A3.7030706@msu.edu> > > Lucky find - I have been looking for one of these > forever. > I don't know where you're currently located (you mention Europe in your mail) but just in case, there appears to be a similar one on eBay right now, located in California: http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Wang-Computer-w-5-1-4-Flopy-Drive_W0QQitemZ190032522943QQihZ009QQcategoryZ1247QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem. Josh David Comley wrote: > These were great machines for their time and were the > standard desktop machine at Ford Motor Company in > Europe in the early to mid-80's. We had them networked > to Wang VS's for e-mail, file and print serving but > the most common app in use at that time would have > been Wang Word Processing. IIRC Wang made an emulation > board that made this look like a normal PC clone. Once > Wang started delivering 286's and 386's these became > known as Wang Classics to distinguish them from their > more mainstream PC clone siblings. > > Lucky find - I have been looking for one of these > forever. > > -Dave > > --- Jay West wrote: > > >> I took more pictures of the unit after removing the >> chassis. They can be >> found at: >> >> http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/wang >> >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > From kelly at catcorner.org Tue Oct 3 03:47:59 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 04:47:59 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 hard drive questions... Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036194@MEOW.catcorner.org> > > Are there disk images for earlier versions of Model 16 Xenix > available > on the 'net? My Model 16 came with 2.3A, and it's not I'll see if I have any complete earlier versions. From richardlynch3 at comcast.net Tue Oct 3 07:55:24 2006 From: richardlynch3 at comcast.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 07:55:24 -0500 Subject: naval jelly In-Reply-To: <200610022148220779.36730C33@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: on 10/2/06 11:48 PM, Chuck Guzis at cclist at sydex.com wrote: > On 10/2/2006 at 10:55 PM Jay West wrote: > >> Odd, for many years I used Naval Jelly to clean rust off cans in my beer >> can collection. I never once saw it take any paint off, and I used it on > some >> pretty fragile old cans. It worked wonderfully without messing up the >> paint. > > I'm sure it did. But Naval Jelly is a very old product and not very safe. > There are better, safer, preparations. > > I've got a friend who runs an antique auto restoration business. He says > that he uses the Eastwood products: > > http://www.offroaders.com/shop/rust.htm > > Maybe there's something there that might do the job for you. > > FWIW, > Chuck > There is a product called Whink Rust Stain Remover that I've used for years on small rust spots. You can get it at WalMart. Richard From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 3 09:07:15 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 14:07:15 +0000 Subject: naval jelly In-Reply-To: <200610022148220779.36730C33@10.0.0.252> References: <001501c6e69a$3ee847c0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200610022048030505.363BD268@10.0.0.252> <005b01c6e69f$c22b1630$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200610022148220779.36730C33@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <45226E93.4090806@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/2/2006 at 10:55 PM Jay West wrote: > >> Odd, for many years I used Naval Jelly to clean rust off cans in my beer >> can collection. I never once saw it take any paint off, and I used it on > some >> pretty fragile old cans. It worked wonderfully without messing up the >> paint. > > I'm sure it did. But Naval Jelly is a very old product and not very safe. > There are better, safer, preparations. Wouldn't electrolysis using a sacrificial anode work? I've used it on small parts before and it works well for getting rid of all the corrosion. Probably doesn't scale well to large panels, though? -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 3 08:53:52 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 09:53:52 -0400 Subject: naval jelly In-Reply-To: <200610022048030505.363BD268@10.0.0.252> References: <001501c6e69a$3ee847c0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200610022048030505.363BD268@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > I'm familiar with the stuff but would never really consider using it on > electronics gear--it's basically phosphoric and sulfuric acids with some > detergent and silica as a polishing agent. The "jelly" is nothing more > than Xanthan gum (also used to thicken salad dressing). > > Surely, there must be safer ways to clear away rust! Not safer, but better. Commercial Naval Jelly is pretty weak stuff. There is a liquid form out there (I do not recall who makes it) that is much stronger and really does a number on rust. It will also really do a number on your eyes, too. -- Will From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 3 09:23:14 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 09:23:14 -0500 Subject: wang professional computer Message-ID: <001c01c6e6f7$78d25a40$6700a8c0@BILLING> Yup, the one someone pointed out on ebay is exactly the one that I got recently (except mine has dual floppies and a hard drive). Note that the auction on ebay does not include the monitor (and the Wang monitor is proprietary). So if anyone here does win that auction, I know where a monitor and cable can be obtained pretty cheap, but only for a short while. The local surplus guy tends to pitch things that don't sell after a while. Jay West From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Oct 3 09:33:55 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 07:33:55 -0700 Subject: naval jelly In-Reply-To: <200610022148220779.36730C33@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 10/2/2006 at 10:55 PM Jay West wrote: > > >Odd, for many years I used Naval Jelly to clean rust off cans in my beer > >can collection. I never once saw it take any paint off, and I used it on >some > >pretty fragile old cans. It worked wonderfully without messing up the > >paint. > >I'm sure it did. But Naval Jelly is a very old product and not very safe. > There are better, safer, preparations. > >I've got a friend who runs an antique auto restoration business. He says >that he uses the Eastwood products: > >http://www.offroaders.com/shop/rust.htm > >Maybe there's something there that might do the job for you. > >FWIW, >Chuck > Hi In another group, some have suggested electrolysis methods. I've not tried it but they talk about hanging the piece in a stainless tub and applying current to it. I don't recall what they suggested for elecrolyte but I suspect it isn't critical. Most anything that doesn't plate out of solution should work. Dwight From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 3 06:39:04 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 07:39:04 -0400 Subject: VCF Build-It-Yourself Workshops Message-ID: <0J6K00KUX5NAIFR1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VCF Build-It-Yourself Workshops > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 15:31:28 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >On 10/2/2006 at 2:43 PM David Betz wrote: > >>I would *love* to assemble an FPGA kit that allowed me to experiment >>with various classic architectures (and maybe some modern ones!). >>Sign me up if you decide to have one! > >Golly, folks have been doing this for quite awhile. The XESS kits seem to >be very popular. There was/is even a fellow who was offering a >pin-compatible Z80 replacement implemented in FPGA. > >Here's one of the lists I've found: > >http://members.optusnet.com.au/jekent/FPGA.htm > >What's not really clear to me is what the practical difference is between >implementing a classic CPU in FPGA and writing an emulator for on to run on >a PeeCee. That depends on many things. An emulator for a PC might be a microprogrammed archetecture for a PDP-5 which is a sequential logic machine. With real logic you have to deal with mudane and annoying things like two registers accessing a single bus. From my point of view doing a classic in FLGA is convenient as your not tied ot a PC but it's still more of a software exercise than real random logic. >As someone on the list has mentioned, it's really the old peripherals that >are the interesting bit. That because you have to interact with the physical world. Often that requires much more than a bit of logic to fly. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 3 06:56:37 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 07:56:37 -0400 Subject: VCF Build-It-Yourself Workshops Message-ID: <0J6K00LZS6GJY0N2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VCF Build-It-Yourself Workshops > From: David Betz > Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 21:25:55 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> On 10/2/2006 at 2:43 PM David Betz wrote: >> >>> I would *love* to assemble an FPGA kit that allowed me to experiment >>> with various classic architectures (and maybe some modern ones!). >>> Sign me up if you decide to have one! >> >> Golly, folks have been doing this for quite awhile. The XESS kits >> seem to >> be very popular. There was/is even a fellow who was offering a >> pin-compatible Z80 replacement implemented in FPGA. > >Yes, I know people have been doing it for a while. I was thinking >that you were suggesting a built-it-yourself session where >participants would learn how to do it themselves. I'm a software guy >and could easily write a software emulator but have less experience >with doing hardware design. I'd love some pointers on how to >implement a CPU in an FPGA. FPGA and hardware are not exactly the same thing. FPGA you implement logic using software tools to compile and test not unlike writing software. Where working with random logic (gates and flops) you have to deal with all of the physical characteristics such as fanout, propagation delays, signal distortion and power distribution. There re a number of sites on the net for FPGA experimentors. Start with http://www.fpga4fun.com/. PISC is pitiful Instruction Set Computer, instructional. http://www.zetetics.com/bj/papers/piscedu2.htm This page and links (web ring) from it are loaded with both random logic implementations and FPGA designs for homebrewed CPUs both unique and classic. http://www.homebrewcpu.com/ Allison From marvin at rain.org Tue Oct 3 10:18:44 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 08:18:44 -0700 Subject: naval jelly Message-ID: <45227F54.346EC5E3@rain.org> > >Odd, for many years I used Naval Jelly to clean rust off cans in my beer > >can collection. I never once saw it take any paint off, and I used it on > some > >pretty fragile old cans. It worked wonderfully without messing up the > >paint. > > I'm sure it did. But Naval Jelly is a very old product and not very safe. > There are better, safer, preparations. Safe is totally in the hands of the user. Cyanide is used in gold plating and is quite safe assuming stupidity is not part of the equation (i.e. let's see what it tastes like.) Navel Jelly does a great job of disolving the rust, and that is what it was intended for. Before using though, I wire brush off the heavy rust deposits and use navel jelly sparingly as the next to final step ... the final step is cleaning :). From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 3 10:29:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 08:29:57 -0700 Subject: naval jelly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200610030829570132.38BE6B82@10.0.0.252> On 10/3/2006 at 7:33 AM dwight elvey wrote: >Hi >In another group, some have suggested electrolysis methods. I've not tried >it but they talk about hanging the piece in a stainless tub and applying >current to it. I don't recall what they suggested for elecrolyte but I suspect it >isn't critical. Most anything that doesn't plate out of solution should work. >Dwight The old tool collectors typically use a solution of washing soda (sodium carbonate) or lye (sodium hydroxide). I've done it myself--just use a battery charger and a steel bucket, immerse the cruddy item in the hot solution and turn on the current. For those old rust-encrusted items, it works really well right down to the otherwise unreachable crevices. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 3 10:41:55 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 08:41:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: naval jelly In-Reply-To: <200610030829570132.38BE6B82@10.0.0.252> from Chuck Guzis at "Oct 3, 6 08:29:57 am" Message-ID: <200610031541.k93Fft1C012416@floodgap.com> > > In another group, some have suggested electrolysis methods. I've not tried > > it but they talk about hanging the piece in a stainless tub and applying > > current to it. I don't recall what they suggested for elecrolyte but I > > suspect it isn't critical. Most anything that doesn't plate out of > > solution should work. > The old tool collectors typically use a solution of washing soda (sodium > carbonate) or lye (sodium hydroxide). I've done it myself--just use a > battery charger and a steel bucket, immerse the cruddy item in the hot > solution and turn on the current. For those old rust-encrusted items, it > works really well right down to the otherwise unreachable crevices. Stupid question -- what would be the anode and cathode in that case? I'm sure this is an obvious thing but I don't have a lot of experience with this. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Support your local hospital. Play hockey. ---------------------------------- From fernande at internet1.net Tue Oct 3 10:44:33 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 11:44:33 -0400 Subject: naval jelly In-Reply-To: <45226E93.4090806@yahoo.co.uk> References: <001501c6e69a$3ee847c0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200610022048030505.363BD268@10.0.0.252> <005b01c6e69f$c22b1630$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200610022148220779.36730C33@10.0.0.252> <45226E93.4090806@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45228561.5040608@internet1.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Wouldn't electrolysis using a sacrificial anode work? Yes, it would. > I've used it on > small parts before and it works well for getting rid of all the > corrosion. Probably doesn't scale well to large panels, though? Haha, you'd be surprised! I 've seen pictures of guys building tanks out of wood and plastic sheeting to do large parts, or as a mid-size tank using garbage cans! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 3 11:12:23 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 11:12:23 -0500 Subject: naval jelly References: <001501c6e69a$3ee847c0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200610022048030505.363BD268@10.0.0.252> <005b01c6e69f$c22b1630$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200610022148220779.36730C33@10.0.0.252><45226E93.4090806@yahoo.co.uk> <45228561.5040608@internet1.net> Message-ID: <008001c6e706$bbecb4b0$6700a8c0@BILLING> It was written.... > Haha, you'd be surprised! I 've seen pictures of guys building tanks out > of wood and plastic sheeting to do large parts, or as a mid-size tank > using garbage cans! I wasn't talking about using it for heavily encrusted parts. Just for some rack panels that have a few light rust spots on them. I'm suprised that someone mentioned there are polishing/abrasive components in the stuff. I never used naval jelly on a rag and scrubbed to remove the rust. I dabbed on a tiny amount on the rust spot, then about 30 minutes later just wiped it off with a damp rag. Rust was gone. No scrubbing or polishing required. There are some of my racks that have large areas of a VERY light mist of rust. I would wipe on some naval jelly, then a few minutes later wipe it off with a damp rag and then a dry rag. As I said, I've never seen it take off paint although I guess that's possible. Jay West From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 3 11:41:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 09:41:29 -0700 Subject: naval jelly In-Reply-To: <200610031541.k93Fft1C012416@floodgap.com> References: <200610031541.k93Fft1C012416@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200610030941290574.38FFEADC@10.0.0.252> On 10/3/2006 at 8:41 AM Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Stupid question -- what would be the anode and cathode in that case? I'm >sure this is an obvious thing but I don't have a lot of experience with >this. The negative terminal of the DC source goes to the tool, so that would make it the cathode. This method is supposed to be among the gentlest of cleaning methods. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 3 11:44:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 09:44:37 -0700 Subject: naval jelly In-Reply-To: <008001c6e706$bbecb4b0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <001501c6e69a$3ee847c0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200610022048030505.363BD268@10.0.0.252> <005b01c6e69f$c22b1630$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200610022148220779.36730C33@10.0.0.252> <45226E93.4090806@yahoo.co.uk> <45228561.5040608@internet1.net> <008001c6e706$bbecb4b0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200610030944370404.3902C892@10.0.0.252> On 10/3/2006 at 11:12 AM Jay West wrote: >There are some of my racks that have large areas of a VERY light mist of >rust. I would wipe on some naval jelly, then a few minutes later wipe it >off >with a damp rag and then a dry rag. As I said, I've never seen it take off >paint although I guess that's possible. Naval Jelly does have silica in it as a polishing agent. But you could remove that light rust with a solution of phosphoric acid (or a can of Coke for that matter). Some old-time remedies are vinegar; another is soaking the part in molasses (treacle for the UK crowd). Yuck! Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 3 11:57:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 09:57:04 -0700 Subject: VCF Build-It-Yourself Workshops In-Reply-To: <0J6K00LZS6GJY0N2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J6K00LZS6GJY0N2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200610030957040879.390E3065@10.0.0.252> On 10/3/2006 at 7:56 AM Allison wrote: >FPGA and hardware are not exactly the same thing. FPGA you implement >logic using software tools to compile and test not unlike writing software. >Where working with random logic (gates and flops) you have to deal with >all of the physical characteristics such as fanout, propagation delays, >signal distortion and power distribution. It's not as if that part couldn't yield to more sophisticated software tools. It's just that successful exploitation of FPGA demanded that the necessary tools be developed. But I can envision a compiler that has as output a PCB layout and BOM of random logic parts. Cheers, Chuck From fernande at internet1.net Tue Oct 3 12:07:30 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 13:07:30 -0400 Subject: naval jelly In-Reply-To: <008001c6e706$bbecb4b0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <001501c6e69a$3ee847c0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200610022048030505.363BD268@10.0.0.252> <005b01c6e69f$c22b1630$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200610022148220779.36730C33@10.0.0.252><45226E93.4090806@yahoo.co.uk> <45228561.5040608@internet1.net> <008001c6e706$bbecb4b0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <452298D2.3060301@internet1.net> Jay, I was referring to electrolysis. I don't have much experience with Naval Jelly, but the few times I did use it, I didn't try to rub it in either. Something to keep in mind.... electrolysis will remove paint. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jay West wrote: > It was written.... >> Haha, you'd be surprised! I 've seen pictures of guys building tanks >> out of wood and plastic sheeting to do large parts, or as a mid-size >> tank using garbage cans! > > I wasn't talking about using it for heavily encrusted parts. Just for > some rack panels that have a few light rust spots on them. I'm suprised > that someone mentioned there are polishing/abrasive components in the > stuff. I never used naval jelly on a rag and scrubbed to remove the > rust. I dabbed on a tiny amount on the rust spot, then about 30 minutes > later just wiped it off with a damp rag. Rust was gone. No scrubbing or > polishing required. > > There are some of my racks that have large areas of a VERY light mist of > rust. I would wipe on some naval jelly, then a few minutes later wipe it > off with a damp rag and then a dry rag. As I said, I've never seen it > take off paint although I guess that's possible. > > Jay West > > > > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Oct 3 12:48:51 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 10:48:51 -0700 Subject: naval jelly In-Reply-To: <008001c6e706$bbecb4b0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <001501c6e69a$3ee847c0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200610022048030505.363BD268@10.0.0.252> <005b01c6e69f$c22b1630$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200610022148220779.36730C33@10.0.0.252><45226E93.4090806@yahoo.co.uk> <45228561.5040608@internet1.net> <008001c6e706$bbecb4b0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4522A283.2040201@msm.umr.edu> Jay West wrote: > > I wasn't talking about using it for heavily encrusted parts. Just for > some rack panels that have a few light rust spots on them. I'm > suprised that someone mentioned there are polishing/abrasive > components in the stuff. I never used naval jelly on a rag and > scrubbed to remove the rust. I dabbed on a tiny amount on the rust > spot, then about 30 minutes later just wiped it off with a damp rag. > Rust was gone. No scrubbing or polishing required. The only thing that worries me about naval jelly, or any other grease product is that after the the spots that you treat draw dust and retain it better than other spots, and you get an ever increasing area which after a year or two looks worse that just a spot with some rust, assuming the rust does not spread. The airborne stuff that collects can do a variety of things, including drawing more moisture to the spot, and causing other areas to get affected. You can try to wipe it off with something to remove the volatiles completely, however if there are plastics or finishes involved, the way you clean the area is a problem getting them clean w/o harm. It is not a huge problem for areas that are cleaned some, only for ones which are cleaned then put up in storage and not cleaned off, as well. Jim From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Oct 3 13:35:42 2006 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 14:35:42 EDT Subject: naval jelly Message-ID: <412.8aa473d.3254077e@aol.com> In a message dated 10/3/2006 11:48:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, spectre at floodgap.com writes: > > In another group, some have suggested electrolysis methods. I've not tried > > it but they talk about hanging the piece in a stainless tub and applying > > current to it. I don't recall what they suggested for elecrolyte but I > > suspect it isn't critical. Most anything that doesn't plate out of > > solution should work. > The old tool collectors typically use a solution of washing soda (sodium > carbonate) or lye (sodium hydroxide). I've done it myself--just use a > battery charger and a steel bucket, immerse the cruddy item in the hot > solution and turn on the current. For those old rust-encrusted items, it > works really well right down to the otherwise unreachable crevices. Stupid question -- what would be the anode and cathode in that case? I'm sure this is an obvious thing but I don't have a lot of experience with this. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser I've used this electrolysis method myself and works great. I've got an article about it on my website. You don't want to use a metal container. A plastic trash can or storage tub works great. I use a scrap of stainless steel for the anode. The bigger the anode, the faster the reaction is. It's totally safe on the part you are derusting. It removes all paint too. I use crystal drain cleaner to make the solution. Use scrap wire to connect the battery charger to the anode/part because they will corrode quickly. Make sure to have good circulation too. Hydrogen gas is produced. When you take the part ouf, it will have a black residue on it. Be sure to scrub it ALL off otherwise if you paint the part, it may rust again. Better yet, use a pressure washer if possible. There should not be any black residue in the pores of the metal object. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 3 13:47:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 11:47:09 -0700 Subject: naval jelly In-Reply-To: <4522A283.2040201@msm.umr.edu> References: <001501c6e69a$3ee847c0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200610022048030505.363BD268@10.0.0.252> <005b01c6e69f$c22b1630$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200610022148220779.36730C33@10.0.0.252> <45226E93.4090806@yahoo.co.uk> <45228561.5040608@internet1.net> <008001c6e706$bbecb4b0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <4522A283.2040201@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200610031147090002.3972FAB1@10.0.0.252> On 10/3/2006 at 10:48 AM jim stephens wrote: >It is not a huge problem for areas that are cleaned some, only for ones >which are cleaned then put up in storage and not cleaned off, as well. Can you say "cosmoline"? :) --Chuck From robo58 at optonline.net Tue Oct 3 15:52:42 2006 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 16:52:42 -0400 Subject: Selling Intel 8096/196 Emulators, Compaq Portable III and Intel 196 Educational Board References: <20060730181346.50833.qmail@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001301c6e72d$df0243d0$6401a8c0@P43200> Hi, I'm cleaning house and have the following equipment available. I thought I'd post it and see if there was any interest. If not, then onto ebay. 1). Intel ICE196PC (80C196 Emulator) installed in a Compaq Portable III PC (80386/20) with an Intel HEC Educational Demo board that lets you experiment with the software and emulator. This is a complete kit, with all the compilers, linker, locator, etc. It passes all diagnostics. The Compaq is 386/20 CPU, 42Mb Drive, 3072Kb of RAM. Everything runs under DOS. This comes with 196PC manual, diskette and CD with all the compilers. 2). Two Intel VLSICE96 Emulators (last ones with bondout chips). These pass some tests and fail others. This is not a clear indication that the emulator bondout chips are bad. Intel made many changes to the diagnostic software and the PAL's on the Crystal Power Accessory (Test module for Confidence tests). I don't have the information or the time to test. So these are buyer beware. I have one complete manual and diskettes. I can also supply all the compilers. Also note that the VLSICE96 emulator software used software timing loops (Intel was dumb) so you can only run these emulators on 8088/8086/80286/80386 PC's, those without internal cache memory. Slowing modern CPU's with caches does not remedy the problem. So if your interested make sure you have an appropriatly older PC. Please email me directly if your interested in any of the above. Robo From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 3 20:08:30 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 21:08:30 -0400 Subject: 486 EISA system Message-ID: <000f01c6e751$9b4efc90$0b01a8c0@game> Another Ebay find came in today, a 486 EISA motherboard and 5 cards. The motherboards seems to be this model: http://artofhacking.com/th99/m/U-Z/31111.htm , but I can't find a company name on it anywhere. It has 8 EISA slots seems to be setup for a 486 DX. it looks like there are 2 DALLAS real time clocks on it, and the machine complains the eisa config battery is low. Are there any cheap hacks to get around this? The cards that came are the following (all EISA): HP 10Mb and 100Mb network card has a HP/AT&T 100VG chip Aview 2e Video card, 1MB VRAM Adaptec AHA-2740 and AHA-2740A SCSI 50 pin (no floppy controller) SCSI cards Mylex DAC960-1/2 caching controller card with what looks like 16MB (maybe 4MB) of RAM installed (4x30 pin). The card has a nice big Intel i960 chip (first one I have). When the machine boots I don't see any info on what processor the system has like you would normally see on a 486 system, and no BIOS screen for the SCSI cards comes up either (not that there is anything connected to them). The caching controller is odd looking because of the large SCSI connectors ( there appears to be a 50 pin SCSI internal , and 2 68 pin SCSI (one looks like a normal 50 pin but its long and has 68 pins, the other looks like a 68pin connector on newer cards but the pin spacing makes it look 3x longer). Is this a raid only card and do I need special cables for the 68 pin connectors or are there adapters for these? I never used an EISA machine before (one of the reason I snagged these) and was wondering if there is anything special about them. Is there a standard configuration utility for EISA cards or do you need to find one for each card? Also since this machine is all EISA slots would putting an ISA card in one of them slow the BUS down? I need to find an EISA floppy and I/O card to complete this, anybody have one they don't need? TZ From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Oct 4 05:42:59 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 06:42:59 -0400 Subject: imac g3 power supply replacement Message-ID: <200610041042.k94Agxbl021161@mwave.heeltoe.com> just curious if anyone here knows much about slotted imac g3's hardware probably doesn't pass the apocryphal "10 year rule" but it just might. (that's a joke. no flames about the existance or non-existance of the any rule, real or imagined) Anyway, I've found a few "slotted" g3 imacs with dead power supplies. There are some web sites which talk about case conversions but they all refer to the older, earlier imacs. One talks about the slotted g3's but its in french and doesnt' speak to my issue (it's a nice site, however - merci!) I pulled the logic board out of the case and I want to power it. It looks like the PAV (the big power supply for the crt) provides 24VAC to the main board and there is a switcher glued on to the logic board which makes the +5,3.3, etc.. It's just that the wires which seem to feed the 24VAC seen very small. They do lead (across the entire pcb) to the switcher connector and those seem to lead to a transformer, so I think I'm on the right track. So, I'm looking for confirmation - is the logic board on a slotted imac g3 powered by 24VAC to a local switcher and are those 4 wimpy little wires supplying the ac? the French site labels them "24VAC phase 1" and "24VAC phase 2". No sense replacing the switcher if it works. I thought I'd find a clear box for the motherboard and my kids would enjoy it. oh, and if anyone has a "marathon irack dv" box they don't want contact me via email. -brad From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Oct 4 06:42:47 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 04:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replica 1 SE Workshop at VCF 9.0! Message-ID: Build Your Own Vintage Computer Replica! Briel Computers Replica 1 SE Workshop at the Vintage Computer Festival November 4, 2006, 10:00pm http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/workshop.php The VCF is proud to present yet another Build-It-Yourself experience at VCF 9.0 this November 4. The Build-It-Yourself workshops are a great introduction for those interested in learning the art of computers, programming and electronics, giving them first-hand experience building and programming their own hardware under the direction of leading engineers. Workshop Description In this workshop participants will build the Briel Computers replica 1 SE. The replica 1 is a functional clone of the famous Apple 1, the computer designed by Steve Wozniak (Woz) and upon which Apple Computer was founded. It was featured in Wired Magazine's Cult of Mac section and in the book "Apple 1 Replica Creation" by Tom Owad. The replica 1 SE contains many of the original components of the Apple 1 including the 6502 CPU and the 6821 PIA. This workshop will cover the complete assembly of this fun to build 8-bit computer. Some soldering experience is expected but a special, nearly assembled version will be available upon prior request for participants with no soldering experience. This workshop is limited to ten participants, so personal assistance from the instructor will be available throughout the session. BONUS: Get your board signed by Woz himself, who will be participating in the Apple 30th year anniversary celebration at the VCF on Saturday, November 4! Instructor This workshop will be conducted by Vince Briel, a computer engineer from Ohio. Vince is the designer of the Replica 1 and has over 20 years of hardware design experience. Vince manages large computer networks and spends most of his spare time designing new hardware projects. Pre-Requisites and Tools The completed replica 1 kit requires only a power supply, PS/2 type keyboard and a monitor or television with composite video inputs. A monitor will be available in the workshop lab for testing built kits once they've been assembled. Participants should bring a soldering iron and solder, wire cutters, and needle-nose pliers. Participants with previous soldering experience will find this kit relatively simply to complete. For those with little or no soldering experience, a mostly assembled version is available at no extra charge upon request when registering. The entire workshop will run for approximately two hours. Registration The fee for this workshop is $149.00 (a savings of $10 off the normal kit price), which includes the replica 1 SE kit. To reserve a spot, go to the weblink provided below and follow the payment instructions (via PayPal). Fees should be paid in advance of the course, although walk-in participants on the day of the workshop will be welcomed. http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/workshop.php?action=select&id=VCF90BCR1SEW Inquiries regarding this workshop should be directed by e-mail to . -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From shirsch at adelphia.net Wed Oct 4 10:13:29 2006 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 11:13:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 486 EISA system In-Reply-To: <000f01c6e751$9b4efc90$0b01a8c0@game> References: <000f01c6e751$9b4efc90$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Oct 2006, Teo Zenios wrote: > Another Ebay find came in today, a 486 EISA motherboard and 5 cards. > > The motherboards seems to be this model: > http://artofhacking.com/th99/m/U-Z/31111.htm , but I can't find a > company name on it anywhere. It has 8 EISA slots seems to be setup for a > 486 DX. it looks like there are 2 DALLAS real time clocks on it, and the > machine complains the eisa config battery is low. Are there any cheap > hacks to get around this? It might use NVRAM in the Dallas module, in which case you may just be able to replace them outright. > The cards that came are the following (all EISA): > > HP 10Mb and 100Mb network card has a HP/AT&T 100VG chip I don't think that 100VG "AnyLAN" is compatible with 100Base ethernet. ISTR it's a proprietary standard that's actually closer to token ring. The 10Mb mode "should" be compatible with ethernet. There are a number of 100BaseTX EISA adapters available. Try to find a 3Com 3c597 (I used all mine to upgrade networking on SGI Indigo 2 boxes ). > Aview 2e Video card, 1MB VRAM > > Adaptec AHA-2740 and AHA-2740A SCSI 50 pin (no floppy controller) SCSI cards > > Mylex DAC960-1/2 caching controller card with what looks like 16MB > (maybe 4MB) of RAM installed (4x30 pin). The card has a nice big Intel > i960 chip (first one I have). You have a DAC-960 EISA bus controller? I thought the DAC960s were all PCI bus. Learn something every day! > When the machine boots I don't see any info on what processor the system > has like you would normally see on a 486 system, and no BIOS screen for > the SCSI cards comes up either (not that there is anything connected to > them). The caching controller is odd looking because of the large SCSI > connectors ( there appears to be a 50 pin SCSI internal , and 2 68 pin > SCSI (one looks like a normal 50 pin but its long and has 68 pins, the > other looks like a 68pin connector on newer cards but the pin spacing > makes it look 3x longer). Is this a raid only card and do I need special > cables for the 68 pin connectors or are there adapters for these? > > I never used an EISA machine before (one of the reason I snagged these) > and was wondering if there is anything special about them. Is there a > standard configuration utility for EISA cards or do you need to find one > for each card? It's worse than that. You need the EISA setup _application_ specific to the motherboard in _addition_ to the config files for each expansion board. If you're lucky, perhaps the setup app for another brand of motherboard using the same chipset will work. > Also since this machine is all EISA slots would putting an ISA card in > one of them slow the BUS down? I need to find an EISA floppy and I/O > card to complete this, anybody have one they don't need? It should be simple enough to find an Adaptec 2742 controller with onboard floppy. As of last Spring, I routinely saw them in the "Free" or "$1.00" bins at flea markets. And, no, an ISA card will not slow things down. You can likely install a run-of-the-mill floppy IO card. Steve -- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 4 10:42:10 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 08:42:10 -0700 Subject: 486 EISA system In-Reply-To: <000f01c6e751$9b4efc90$0b01a8c0@game> References: <000f01c6e751$9b4efc90$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200610040842100739.3DEFF8B5@10.0.0.252> On 10/3/2006 at 9:08 PM Teo Zenios wrote: >Another Ebay find came in today, a 486 EISA motherboard and 5 cards. > >The motherboards seems to be this model: >http://artofhacking.com/th99/m/U-Z/31111.htm , but I can't find a company >name on it anywhere. It has 8 EISA slots seems to be setup for a 486 DX. >it looks like there are 2 DALLAS real time clocks on it, and the machine >complains the eisa config battery is low. Are there any cheap hacks to get >around this? Only one of these is an RTC chip, the other (DS1225V) is an 8Kx8 NVRAM. I wonder if it might be simplest to replace this one with a similar FRAM (Ramtron FM-1608) and be done with the battery issue, at least on the one chip. The Ramtron chip is also cheaper than NOS DS1225Vs, BTW. You might also be able to carve into the encapsulation with a Dremel to get at the lithium cell as a very cheap dodge. As far as the DS1287 RTC, it's been discussed on the list before (you can carve into the epoxy and tie into the lithium cell contacts, or you can just replace the chip). http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/503 has notes on replacement. Cheers, Chuck > >The cards that came are the following (all EISA): > >HP 10Mb and 100Mb network card has a HP/AT&T 100VG chip > >Aview 2e Video card, 1MB VRAM > >Adaptec AHA-2740 and AHA-2740A SCSI 50 pin (no floppy controller) SCSI >cards > >Mylex DAC960-1/2 caching controller card with what looks like 16MB (maybe >4MB) of RAM installed (4x30 pin). The card has a nice big Intel i960 chip >(first one I have). > >When the machine boots I don't see any info on what processor the system >has like you would normally see on a 486 system, and no BIOS screen for >the SCSI cards comes up either (not that there is anything connected to >them). The caching controller is odd looking because of the large SCSI >connectors ( there appears to be a 50 pin SCSI internal , and 2 68 pin >SCSI (one looks like a normal 50 pin but its long and has 68 pins, the >other looks like a 68pin connector on newer cards but the pin spacing >makes it look 3x longer). Is this a raid only card and do I need special >cables for the 68 pin connectors or are there adapters for these?> >I never used an EISA machine before (one of the reason I snagged these) >and was wondering if there is anything special about them. Is there a >standard configuration utility for EISA cards or do you need to find one >for each card? > >Also since this machine is all EISA slots would putting an ISA card in one >of them slow the BUS down? I need to find an EISA floppy and I/O card to >complete this, anybody have one they don't need? > >TZ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 4 13:52:09 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 18:52:09 +0000 Subject: Making large numeric displays Message-ID: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> I got to wondering how to make a large numeric display (a few inches high) for a potential project. I've only seen 7-segment displays up to about an inch in height, plus I quite fancy something with more rounded numerals anyway (all of this came about from thinking about Nixies :) Building something from individual LEDs looks to be cost-prohibitive, not to mention power-hungry; I think I figured on over about 125 LEDs per digit. I came up with something based on 23 segments which I think will look nice. Basically a 14-segment grid like the following: _ _ | | |_ _| | | |_ _| ... then with each square part containing a circle split into four segments. Finally a central segment runs top to bottom to give a '1' digit centered horizontally. (I'm not going to try and draw arcs in ASCII ;) I need to do some tests to see how well light from an LED will travel through perspex (plexiglass, or whatever the preferred term is) if I mount the LED at one end of a strip, box off three sides with metal foil, and (maybe) polish the exposed side. In theory I can easily shape that to give the arcs that I need, too. Of course all of this is just a precursor to see if anyone else has built big displays like this as part of a project, and what they found worked well (or otherwise) It may be that I can get away with having the curved sections live 'inside' the boxes (i.e. it won't be noticeable from a distance anyway), so that there are no points of overlap; time will tell there. Heck of a lot easier driving 23 LEDs per display rather than five times that amount, anyway! If it's technically possible, the issue will be how long it actually takes to make each digit and get it right, though. Ideas are welcome... cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From jplist at kiwigeek.com Wed Oct 4 13:16:58 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 13:16:58 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Perhaps this might give you some ideas: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/present.php?p=GPSClock-1 On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > I got to wondering how to make a large numeric display (a few inches high) for > a potential project. I've only seen 7-segment displays up to about an inch in > height, plus I quite fancy something with more rounded numerals anyway (all of > this came about from thinking about Nixies :) > > Building something from individual LEDs looks to be cost-prohibitive, not to > mention power-hungry; I think I figured on over about 125 LEDs per digit. > > I came up with something based on 23 segments which I think will look nice. > Basically a 14-segment grid like the following: > > _ _ > | | > |_ _| > | | > |_ _| > > ... then with each square part containing a circle split into four segments. > Finally a central segment runs top to bottom to give a '1' digit centered > horizontally. (I'm not going to try and draw arcs in ASCII ;) > > I need to do some tests to see how well light from an LED will travel through > perspex (plexiglass, or whatever the preferred term is) if I mount the LED at > one end of a strip, box off three sides with metal foil, and (maybe) polish > the exposed side. In theory I can easily shape that to give the arcs that I > need, too. > > Of course all of this is just a precursor to see if anyone else has built big > displays like this as part of a project, and what they found worked well (or > otherwise) > > It may be that I can get away with having the curved sections live 'inside' > the boxes (i.e. it won't be noticeable from a distance anyway), so that there > are no points of overlap; time will tell there. > > Heck of a lot easier driving 23 LEDs per display rather than five times that > amount, anyway! If it's technically possible, the issue will be how long it > actually takes to make each digit and get it right, though. Ideas are welcome... > > cheers > > Jules > > -- > A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. > Q. What's wrong with top posting ? > > > From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Oct 4 13:12:39 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 11:12:39 -0700 Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> References: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4523F997.5020505@mindspring.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > > I got to wondering how to make a large numeric display (a few inches > high) for a potential project. I've only seen 7-segment displays up to > about an inch in height, plus I quite fancy something with more > rounded numerals anyway (all of this came about from thinking about > Nixies :) > While you are at it, why not go for broke? See: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/present.php?p=GPSClock-1 From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Oct 4 13:51:17 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 11:51:17 -0700 Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> References: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <452402A5.5090905@dakotacom.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > I got to wondering how to make a large numeric display (a few inches > high) for a potential project. I've only seen 7-segment displays up to > about an inch in height, plus I quite fancy something with more rounded > numerals anyway (all of this came about from thinking about Nixies :) > > Building something from individual LEDs looks to be cost-prohibitive, > not to mention power-hungry; I think I figured on over about 125 LEDs > per digit. > > I came up with something based on 23 segments which I think will look > nice. Basically a 14-segment grid like the following: > > _ _ > | | > |_ _| > | | > |_ _| > > ... then with each square part containing a circle split into four > segments. Finally a central segment runs top to bottom to give a '1' > digit centered horizontally. (I'm not going to try and draw arcs in > ASCII ;) > > I need to do some tests to see how well light from an LED will travel > through perspex (plexiglass, or whatever the preferred term is) if I > mount the LED at one end of a strip, box off three sides with metal > foil, and (maybe) polish the exposed side. In theory I can easily shape > that to give the arcs that I need, too. You haven't said what your viewing conditions are -- darkened room, direct sunlight, etc. There are different display technologies that can be exploited in each. > Of course all of this is just a precursor to see if anyone else has > built big displays like this as part of a project, and what they found > worked well (or otherwise) I built a "display" with 4 ft digits. Very hard to read "up close" :> > It may be that I can get away with having the curved sections live > 'inside' the boxes (i.e. it won't be noticeable from a distance anyway), > so that there are no points of overlap; time will tell there. Is there a reason for the aesthetics? Or, "just because"? > Heck of a lot easier driving 23 LEDs per display rather than five times > that amount, anyway! If it's technically possible, the issue will be how > long it actually takes to make each digit and get it right, though. > Ideas are welcome... You can buy 14 segment displays (look like British flag). Your "segments" may well end up being LED "bars" -- which usually have 3 or 4 discrete lamps in them for more uniform intensity. There are displays that use no "static" power (i.e. only to change state). You can buy 5x7 LED arrays that are end stackable - though this is overkill as it allows for the creation of full graphics. Some vacuum flourescents come with "curved" corners and larger sizes (look at some of the early pinball machines). You also need to consider (in your power/intensity budget) how you drive the displays. I.e. if you multiplex them, intensity goes down (as does power -- though not proportionately). I assume you want to do this on a shoestring budget? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Oct 4 13:16:43 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 14:16:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> References: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200610041843.OAA13537@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I got to wondering how to make a large numeric display (a few inches > high) for a potential project. This reminds me of something I did some years back. I am somewhat myopic (4.5 diopters or so). I wanted a clock I could read from across the room, without my glasses, for my bedroom (so I could read the time upon waking up without having to find my glasses). Initially I would just roll over and haul the bedside clock up next to my face - but then when I met by now-ex and found myself no longer sleeping alone, there was sometimes someone between me and the clock. The largest stock clock I could find had digits only 1.8" high, I think it was. I picked up one of those and found that, as I'd hoped, the display was on a separate board, with wires forming a kind of coarse ribbon cable between that and the main clock board. I cut the wires and probed the display part with power and a resistor suitable for LEDs, to determine the pinout. Then I cut a piece of 1/8" plywood to the size I wanted the clock face to have (something like 8" by 24" - I'd have to go measure to be sure). Then I laid out (digitally) and printed out (piecemeal, on multiple sheets, with registration marks) a clock display 88:88 made up of five LEDs per segment. Using those sheets as a guide, I drilled out the plywood to take round LEDs at the right places. Pushed the LEDs through, soldered them up appropriately, and all that was left was to build the rest of the case and wire up connectors (I used DB25s) to the display and the clock board. I now have a nice wooden clock on my wall, with the electronics board from the original tucked in one corner driving nice big 7-stroke digits. I tried to interpose additional electronics between the clock and the LEDs, because the LED brightness was so variable I could only assume I was near the limit of the clock's drive capability (driving five LEDs instead of the two or so it was designed for - 7.5V drop instead of about 3V). I never managed to make it work; it appears that power-line AC direct from the power transformer is used to drive the two common poles (I forget whether they were wired common cathode or common anode), and that made it difficult to get the switching to behave - I don't totally understand the problems; I punted to driving the LEDs directly and accepting the brightness variations rather than putting the time and effort necessary into figuring out what was causing it. This is different from what you're doing in some rather significant ways, such as being pure 7-stroke instead of the more rounded digits you're looking for, but perhaps the experience can help. > I need to do some tests to see how well light from an LED will travel > through perspex (plexiglass, or whatever the preferred term is) if I > mount the LED at one end of a strip, box off three sides with metal > foil, and (maybe) polish the exposed side. I would actually prefer to sand it (or sandblast, or whatever) to a matte finish instead of a smooth finish, for better light diffusion - the same reason they frost light bulbs, basically. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 4 15:22:01 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 20:22:01 +0000 Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <452402A5.5090905@dakotacom.net> References: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> <452402A5.5090905@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <452417E9.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> Don wrote: [snippety snip] > You haven't said what your viewing conditions are -- darkened room, > direct sunlight, etc. There are different display technologies > that can be exploited in each. Indoors; natural light / fluorescent overheads. It was my question about what to do with Nixies that prompted me to wonder what interesting museum projects could potentially be done with a lot more numerical displays... I hit on the idea of a big wall-mount Sudoku game, either controlled purely by TTL logic, or by some 'period' single-board machine. That means 81 numeric displays are needed, with the ability to vary the intensity of each digit (in order to show which digits can be modified during a game and which can't). There's also the notion of displaying some sort of cursor position, but that's easy and do-able in all sorts of ways. >> Of course all of this is just a precursor to see if anyone else has >> built big displays like this as part of a project, and what they found >> worked well (or otherwise) > > I built a "display" with 4 ft digits. Very hard to read "up close" :> Yep - given the application, I expect each digit probably needs to be 3-4" tall to give a game grid height of somewhere around 3ft. Power consumption would need to be low; even with 7-seg displays, an average of 5 segments per digit would be on at any one time, which means over 400 segments for a full game board. With displays comprising more segments, the numbers get big fairly quick. >> It may be that I can get away with having the curved sections live >> 'inside' the boxes (i.e. it won't be noticeable from a distance >> anyway), so that there are no points of overlap; time will tell there. > > Is there a reason for the aesthetics? Or, "just because"? Purely 'just because'. It may be that the idea of using perspex/plexiglass just doesn't work because it can't be bent to the small diameters needed for a target 4" max height without cracks appearing that'll destroy any light-transmitting ability. Or it may be that idea just plain doesn't work anyway! I'm just wondering if something more pleasing to the eye - akin to a Nixie - is achievable over a plain old 7-segment display... > Your "segments" may well end up being LED "bars" -- which > usually have 3 or 4 discrete lamps in them for more uniform > intensity. Certainly possible for a 7-segment approach. Although I an see us putting the word out and being able to source large amounts of LEDs (particularly the common types), but anything 'custom' would mean $$$... > Some vacuum flourescents come with "curved" corners and larger > sizes (look at some of the early pinball machines). See, that sort of thing would be great - or finding another 72 decimal Nixies :-) (although presumably intensity can't be controlled as it can with LEDs, which means some other way is needed of showing which digits are fixed and which the player can modify) > You also need to consider (in your power/intensity budget) That's the big problem with a 'lots of LEDs' approach. Hence the speculation as to whether an LED can be shone along the length of a bit of clear plastic that's sealed on 3 sides and whether it'd give enough light. > I assume you want to do this on a shoestring budget? Short-term, yes. I'm just exploring possibilities really and seeing if something can be done with materials that are readily available as junk. If not, I'll just scribble some notes down and it can go on the ideas pile; longer term maybe there'll be a budget, or sponsorship, or we'll just happen to have someone donate lots of dot-matrix LED modules etc. :-) [How to control this using only TTL logic is possibly a separate thread and of more interest to people on this list!] cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Oct 4 14:58:14 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 12:58:14 -0700 Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <452417E9.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> References: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> <452402A5.5090905@dakotacom.net> <452417E9.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45241256.5090605@dakotacom.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Don wrote: > [snippety snip] >> You haven't said what your viewing conditions are -- darkened room, >> direct sunlight, etc. There are different display technologies >> that can be exploited in each. > > Indoors; natural light / fluorescent overheads. It was my question about > what to do with Nixies that prompted me to wonder what interesting > museum projects could potentially be done with a lot more numerical > displays... > > I hit on the idea of a big wall-mount Sudoku game, either controlled > purely by TTL logic, or by some 'period' single-board machine. That > means 81 numeric displays are needed, with the ability to vary the > intensity of each digit (in order to show which digits can be modified > during a game and which can't). There's also the notion of displaying > some sort of cursor position, but that's easy and do-able in all sorts > of ways. A less "classic" approach would be a tranny adapter on an overhead projector (poor man's video projection system) driven entirely in software. The ideal (?) display would be similar to the *EM* displays used in railroad/airline/etc. stations to show departures/arrivals (predating the use of VDU's) -- fixed set of data to display, low static power requirements and wicked cool to watch all of the digits "move"/transition to their new values, etc. >>> Of course all of this is just a precursor to see if anyone else has >>> built big displays like this as part of a project, and what they >>> found worked well (or otherwise) >> >> I built a "display" with 4 ft digits. Very hard to read "up close" :> > > Yep - given the application, I expect each digit probably needs to be > 3-4" tall to give a game grid height of somewhere around 3ft. With .75" "bars" for your segments, this is easily do-able. Note that you can drive the displays with a higher *voltage* and wire the individual diodes in each "segment" in series. Though the total *power* consumed still remains roughly unchanged. > Power consumption would need to be low; even with 7-seg displays, an > average of 5 segments per digit would be on at any one time, which means > over 400 segments for a full game board. With displays comprising more > segments, the numbers get big fairly quick. Depends on the choice of LED. And, whether you drive it in a multiplexed fashion or static. Even at ~40mW per indicator, 400 segments would only be 16W (your hard disk draws that much just spinning in place). However, a "segment" would probably use several lamps so the actual power dissipated in the lamps would probably be closer to 50W (ballpark). Plus electronics. >>> It may be that I can get away with having the curved sections live >>> 'inside' the boxes (i.e. it won't be noticeable from a distance >>> anyway), so that there are no points of overlap; time will tell there. >> >> Is there a reason for the aesthetics? Or, "just because"? > > Purely 'just because'. It may be that the idea of using > perspex/plexiglass just doesn't work because it can't be bent to the > small diameters needed for a target 4" max height without cracks > appearing that'll destroy any light-transmitting ability. Or it may be > that idea just plain doesn't work anyway! I'm just wondering if > something more pleasing to the eye - akin to a Nixie - is achievable > over a plain old 7-segment display... How good are you at blowing glass? You could make one out of Ne or Ar... :> (now *that* would be cool!) >> Your "segments" may well end up being LED "bars" -- which >> usually have 3 or 4 discrete lamps in them for more uniform >> intensity. > > Certainly possible for a 7-segment approach. Although I an see us > putting the word out and being able to source large amounts of LEDs > (particularly the common types), but anything 'custom' would mean $$$... In volume, lamps are about a nickel or so. You'll probably spend more in shipping (far east). Still, you'll probably need ~2500 lamps -- or more. And, if you opted for a bi(tri)-color design, prices quickly go up. >> Some vacuum flourescents come with "curved" corners and larger >> sizes (look at some of the early pinball machines). > > See, that sort of thing would be great - or finding another 72 decimal > Nixies :-) (although presumably intensity can't be controlled as it can > with LEDs, which means some other way is needed of showing which digits > are fixed and which the player can modify) VFD's can be intensity controlled. And they make single digit displays. But, unless someone donates them to you, it will be a costly approach. (and, VFD's are fragile compared to LED's) >> You also need to consider (in your power/intensity budget) > > That's the big problem with a 'lots of LEDs' approach. Hence the > speculation as to whether an LED can be shone along the length of a bit > of clear plastic that's sealed on 3 sides and whether it'd give enough > light. > >> I assume you want to do this on a shoestring budget? > > Short-term, yes. I'm just exploring possibilities really and seeing if > something can be done with materials that are readily available as junk. > If not, I'll just scribble some notes down and it can go on the ideas > pile; longer term maybe there'll be a budget, or sponsorship, or we'll > just happen to have someone donate lots of dot-matrix LED modules etc. :-) > > [How to control this using only TTL logic is possibly a separate thread > and of more interest to people on this list!] Driving the displays is easy -- regardless of the display technology used. Putting *smarts* into the design so that the "initial (game) conditions" are solvable using just TTL may be more challenging. It would be more interesting to drive it with *relay* logic! (and a small air conditioning unit to move all those BTU's out of the exhibit :> ) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 4 15:10:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 13:10:11 -0700 Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <45241256.5090605@dakotacom.net> References: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> <452402A5.5090905@dakotacom.net> <452417E9.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> <45241256.5090605@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <200610041310110883.3EE55C88@10.0.0.252> On 10/4/2006 at 12:58 PM Don wrote: >How good are you at blowing glass? You could make one out >of Ne or Ar... :> (now *that* would be cool!) Or you could try multiple lengths of EL wire. Very easy to work with, but since it's driven by high-voltage AC, the driving part could get to be expensive. OTOH, curves are a snap and and there's a wide choice of colors. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 4 16:09:41 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 14:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <452417E9.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> References: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> <452402A5.5090905@dakotacom.net> <452417E9.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > Purely 'just because'. It may be that the idea of using > perspex/plexiglass just doesn't work because it can't be bent to the > small diameters needed for a target 4" max height without cracks > appearing that'll destroy any light-transmitting ability. Or it may be > that idea just plain doesn't work anyway! I'm just wondering if > something more pleasing to the eye - akin to a Nixie - is achievable > over a plain old 7-segment display... How about a mock-nixie made from electro-luminescent wire? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Oct 4 16:33:47 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 14:33:47 -0700 Subject: Making large numeric displays References: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> <452402A5.5090905@dakotacom.net> <452417E9.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <452428BA.F9DD393A@cs.ubc.ca> The following may-or-may-not suit the esthetics you want to achieve, but it certainly would have a retro/low-tech aspect to it: Revert to the 10-layer technique used in the early-mid-sixties. Each digit is made up from 10 layers of clear plastic, where each layer has dimple/dots/pixels forming 1 of the 10 numerals. Light is injected into a layer from the side and refracts out when it hits the dimples. The orginals used incandescent lamps of course, and can be found in early Canon calculators, General Radio digital test equipment, and occasional other bits of equipment. See http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/canon_canola_130s.html (great pictures) or http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/canon161.html (I believe the units from General Radio were actually larger, perhaps 1.5-2 inches digit height.) (Trivia: These displays can be seen on the countdown timer on the atomic bomb in James Bond - Goldfinger.) It does have the disadvantage (as with Nixies) of interference from all the layers, but you also get that cool 3-D effect as the numerals change. Obviously this technique could be updated with LEDs and scaled up in size. A little experimenting might show whether it would be worthwhile in terms of LED count vs brightness, etc. It would probably be even easier to make in larger form as there would be more space for positioning and isolating LEDs at the edges, and interference effects might be reduced by being able to make a finer dimple pattern. As well it might be possible to make each layer just a rectangle and avoid any bending or tabs. Make up a drilling template for each numeral and just drill partially into the layer to form the dimples, the end of a drill bit leaves a surface perfect for refracting/diffusing the light out. Or farm it out to a plastic-machining shop with a computer-controlled-machine, they could zip off multiples in no time. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 4 16:57:48 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 14:57:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: References: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> <452402A5.5090905@dakotacom.net> <452417E9.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061004144902.N35622@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, David Griffith wrote: > How about a mock-nixie made from electro-luminescent wire? howzbout: making 7 segment displays from flourescent tubes? anywhere from about 6 inches to 16 feet per digit or howzbout: rig up a multibit input (parallel port?) on a PC, wire that to the existing 7 segment displays, and write trivial code to display an image of 7 segment displays on the PC's screen (or projector!) In ~1979, my partner in a computer business (Elcompco) negotiated a deal with Lawrence Hall of Science (the museum, not the labs) to make a bunch of power supplies for Kim-1's. I still stumble over them. But, they also needed a classroom display. We took a picture of a Kim-1, enlarged and mounted it, and wired up rows of plain LEDs replacing the digits in the enlarged picture, and put a real Kim-1 behind the poster. I wanted to make LARGE keypads on the poster, but my partner veto'd the idea. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Oct 4 17:24:26 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 15:24:26 -0700 Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <20061004144902.N35622@shell.lmi.net> References: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> <452402A5.5090905@dakotacom.net> <452417E9.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> <20061004144902.N35622@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4524349A.1070000@dakotacom.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, David Griffith wrote: >> How about a mock-nixie made from electro-luminescent wire? > > howzbout: making 7 segment displays from flourescent tubes? > anywhere from about 6 inches to 16 feet per digit I made a display out of ~2 ft tubes -- 4 ft digits. The problem is they are slow to start -- so not useful for a clock display counting seconds, etc. But, for a more "static" display, this wouldn't be an issue. However, they are high voltage devices which complicates their control (presumably, nowadays, you could use small inverters to control individual tubes instead of ballasts) > or howzbout: > rig up a multibit input (parallel port?) on a PC, wire that to the > existing 7 segment displays, and write trivial code to display an image of > 7 segment displays on the PC's screen (or projector!) Or, a mechanical actuator on an X-Y positioner to physically place placards in the desired locations on the "display grid". Personally, I would find the action of mechanically updating the display to be far more engaging than the "wonder" of a machine that plays soduku. Just like watching a chess *robot* is far more interesting than watching a chess *program*! An X-Y positioner approach also has the appeal of being reusable for other sorts of displays -- not just "decimal digits". I.e. you could display placards of chess pieces. or "checkers" (noughts and crosses?). Or any similar "board game". > In ~1979, my partner in a computer business (Elcompco) negotiated a deal > with Lawrence Hall of Science (the museum, not the labs) to make a bunch > of power supplies for Kim-1's. I still stumble over them. > But, they also needed a classroom display. We took a picture of a Kim-1, > enlarged and mounted it, and wired up rows of plain LEDs replacing the > digits in the enlarged picture, and put a real Kim-1 behind the poster. > I wanted to make LARGE keypads on the poster, but my partner veto'd the > idea. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 4 17:55:33 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 15:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <200610041843.OAA13537@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20061004225534.28113.qmail@web82704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- der Mouse wrote: > > I got to wondering how to make a large numeric > display (a few inches > > high) for a potential project. > How about a 4" dot matrix display? You can drive them multiplexed with a small controller so they won't take much power. See ebay: Item number: 300034147522 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 4 18:43:36 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 12:43:36 +1300 Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <452417E9.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> References: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> <452402A5.5090905@dakotacom.net> <452417E9.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 10/5/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > I hit on the idea of a big wall-mount Sudoku game, either controlled purely by > TTL logic, or by some 'period' single-board machine.... > > Yep - given the application, I expect each digit probably needs to be 3-4" > tall to give a game grid height of somewhere around 3ft. I like the idea of the 9-layer plexiglass sandwich displays (you don't need '0' for your application), but I _have_ seen 3"-4"-tall 7-segment displays. We have a "mission control" type clock here (not GPS controlled, but does have an NTP client onboard). I haven't measured the LEDs personally, but the clock is over 3' long. A quick google search on '4" 7-segment display' gives this as the second hit... http://www.elexp.com/opt_0165.htm $8 each (q. 10) doesn't sound bad, but 81 of them is a fair quantity. Perhaps you could negotiate a slighty lower q. 100 price? This sounds like a fun project. Good luck with it. -ethan From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Wed Oct 4 18:58:07 2006 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 00:58:07 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: References: <20060920084945.13443.qmail@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 9/21/06, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: Update: no-one's interested then? Not even in part of it? This stuff really has to be gone soon. Looks like it's going to get landfilled, then. Which is a shame. Ed. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 4 19:16:10 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 01:16:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 4, 6 06:52:09 pm Message-ID: > > > I got to wondering how to make a large numeric display (a few inches high) for > a potential project. I've only seen 7-segment displays up to about an inch in > height, plus I quite fancy something with more rounded numerals anyway (all of > this came about from thinking about Nixies :) > > Building something from individual LEDs looks to be cost-prohibitive, not to > mention power-hungry; I think I figured on over about 125 LEDs per digit. Velleman sell/sold kits for large 7 segment displays. Each 'segment' was a number of LEDs in seires with the appropraite drier electronics. I forget how expensive the kits were, but IIRC, it was OK if you wanted, say, 4 digits for a clock, but too expensive to think of buying many more. LEDs are not that expemive (at least not red ones) if you buy them in quantity. -tony From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Oct 4 19:34:23 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 19:34:23 -0500 Subject: Need Copy of ET-1000 Manual Message-ID: <00b401c6e816$02be2c60$2d406b43@66067007> Anyone know where I can get a copy of the Heathkit ET-1000 Circuit Design Trainer manual? I need to put one back together. A copy of the page showing the wiring would be great also if no one has the complete manual. Thanks John K. From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Oct 4 19:42:13 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 19:42:13 -0500 Subject: A Good Weekend At the Thrifts Message-ID: <00bc01c6e817$1ada3e00$2d406b43@66067007> The wife and I hit about 7 thrifts on Sunday and I came away with a few gems. A working Vectrex for $7 (no games), a mix of various game cartridges with one valued at $45 (by Video Collector mag) for $2.32 at the thrift, a CrossPad Portable Digital Notepad for $2, Atari Flashback in the box complete for $3.33, and many more items. I have not finished cataloging everything yet. From rcini at optonline.net Wed Oct 4 20:02:46 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 21:02:46 -0400 Subject: OT: Hotline clients Message-ID: <008201c6e819$f8c84a20$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: Can anyone recommend a good, low cost Hotline client for Windows? TIA! Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From james.rice at gmail.com Wed Oct 4 20:05:55 2006 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 20:05:55 -0500 Subject: OT: Hotline clients In-Reply-To: <008201c6e819$f8c84a20$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <008201c6e819$f8c84a20$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: On 10/4/06, Richard A. Cini wrote: > > All: > > > > Can anyone recommend a good, low cost Hotline client for > Windows? > > > > TIA! > > > > Rich > > > > Rich Cini > > ftp://ftp.blackcube.org/pub/hlclient_pc_185.exe -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From ajwills at paradise.net.nz Wed Oct 4 20:12:50 2006 From: ajwills at paradise.net.nz (Tony Wills) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 14:12:50 +1300 Subject: Need Copy of ET-1000 Manual In-Reply-To: <00b401c6e816$02be2c60$2d406b43@66067007> References: <00b401c6e816$02be2c60$2d406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.1.20061005141059.077e6200@pop3.paradise.net.nz> At 13:34 5/10/2006, you wrote: >Anyone know where I can get a copy of the Heathkit ET-1000 Circuit Design >Trainer manual? I need to put one back together. Well this literally answers your question: http://www.w7fg.com/manuals.php?manufacturer=Heathkit&page=2 but may be $21 more than you wanted to spend :-) From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Oct 4 21:49:43 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 21:49:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> References: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > I got to wondering how to make a large numeric display (a few inches > high) for a potential project. I've only seen 7-segment displays up to > about an inch in height, plus I quite fancy something with more rounded > numerals anyway (all of this came about from thinking about Nixies :) > > Building something from individual LEDs looks to be cost-prohibitive, > not to mention power-hungry; I think I figured on over about 125 LEDs > per digit. I didn't see anyone else offer this suggestion, so maybe this idea would work... Use some plastic optical effects fiber with a single LED per numerical shape. Paint one end of the fiber, polish and heat shrink the LED to the other and bend the fiber into whatever shape you want. You could easily layer these. The only downside is that you'll probably have to buy a large spool of the fiber, but the plastic stuff is relatively cheap anyway. You won't want bare glass fiber that's normally used for cable splicing. It won't transmit much, if any, light though the sides. The plastic optical effects fiber will, as its made to do just that. If one strand wouldn't be bright or large enough, you could parallel and light more than one strand with the same LED too, particularly if you use a high intensity LED. (Yes, I'm still alive, just not really reading the list much these days. Still have my "collection", more of it is in storage right now do to space and time constraints, but I hope to change that this next year.) -Toth From ajwills at paradise.net.nz Wed Oct 4 23:51:54 2006 From: ajwills at paradise.net.nz (Tony Wills) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 17:51:54 +1300 Subject: Need Copy of ET-1000 Manual In-Reply-To: <00b401c6e816$02be2c60$2d406b43@66067007> References: <00b401c6e816$02be2c60$2d406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.1.20061005174956.034955e0@pop3.paradise.net.nz> At 13:34 5/10/2006, Keys wrote: >Anyone know where I can get a copy of the Heathkit ET-1000 Circuit Design >Trainer manual? I need to put one back together. A copy of the page >showing the wiring would be great also if no one has the complete >manual. Thanks John K. A historic question on the same subject, may be worth following up to see if they've got a copy: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-April/012865.html From dm.hunt at ntlworld.com Wed Oct 4 17:21:47 2006 From: dm.hunt at ntlworld.com (David Hunt) Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 23:21:47 +0100 Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <005701c6e803$7caa0160$3201a8c0@hal> > I got to wondering how to make a large numeric display (a few > inches high) for a potential project. I've only seen > 7-segment displays up to about an inch in height, plus I > quite fancy something with more rounded numerals anyway (all > of this came about from thinking about Nixies :) > > Building something from individual LEDs looks to be > cost-prohibitive, not to mention power-hungry; I think I > figured on over about 125 LEDs per digit. > > I came up with something based on 23 segments which I think > will look nice. > Basically a 14-segment grid like the following: > > _ _ > | | > |_ _| > | | > |_ _| > > ... then with each square part containing a circle split into > four segments. > Finally a central segment runs top to bottom to give a '1' > digit centered horizontally. (I'm not going to try and draw > arcs in ASCII ;) > > I need to do some tests to see how well light from an LED > will travel through perspex (plexiglass, or whatever the > preferred term is) if I mount the LED at one end of a strip, > box off three sides with metal foil, and (maybe) polish the > exposed side. In theory I can easily shape that to give the > arcs that I need, too. > > Of course all of this is just a precursor to see if anyone > else has built big displays like this as part of a project, > and what they found worked well (or > otherwise) > > It may be that I can get away with having the curved sections > live 'inside' > the boxes (i.e. it won't be noticeable from a distance > anyway), so that there are no points of overlap; time will tell there. > > Heck of a lot easier driving 23 LEDs per display rather than > five times that amount, anyway! If it's technically possible, > the issue will be how long it actually takes to make each > digit and get it right, though. Ideas are welcome... You could try using electroluminescent wire, you could then create a Nixie effect by making the wire into the shapes of the numbers/letters you want. See http://www.surelight.com/content.php they have lots of examples of EL wire. I was thinking of individual LEDs and 8x8 matrix LEDs but the driver Ics for matrix LEDs are expensive and usually only drive 2 8x8 or, 4 5x7 matrix displays and they're not cheap, but you would end up with a much more flexible display unit with full graphics capability. Dave ;) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 4 20:10:34 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2006 21:10:34 -0400 Subject: Making large numeric displays Message-ID: <0J6N00EN61VABVP8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Making large numeric displays > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 12:43:36 +1300 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 10/5/06, Jules Richardson wrote: >> I hit on the idea of a big wall-mount Sudoku game, either controlled purely by >> TTL logic, or by some 'period' single-board machine.... >> >> Yep - given the application, I expect each digit probably needs to be 3-4" >> tall to give a game grid height of somewhere around 3ft. > >I like the idea of the 9-layer plexiglass sandwich displays (you don't >need '0' for your application), but I _have_ seen 3"-4"-tall 7-segment >displays. We have a "mission control" type clock here (not GPS >controlled, but does have an NTP client onboard). I haven't measured >the LEDs personally, but the clock is over 3' long. > >A quick google search on '4" 7-segment display' gives this as the second hit... > >http://www.elexp.com/opt_0165.htm > >$8 each (q. 10) doesn't sound bad, but 81 of them is a fair quantity. >Perhaps you could negotiate a slighty lower q. 100 price? > >This sounds like a fun project. Good luck with it. > >-ethan A bunch of years ago I needed some larger LED displays, 2.5 inches (~76mm) and the solution was very cheap. I used stycast a black resin potting compound and lexan. A block of wood to hold the lexan peices, a rubber mold made with silastic (RTV) was most of it. Three red leds to a segment and a little work finishing the face flat and ta daa, big segments that only needed ~6V at 25ma each. Very cheap to make. Edge lit lexan is very good looking and decent brightness. With the new high output leds both color and greater brightness would be easy. The trick is the lit end is clear by polish or solvent and the display side is matt finish (polish to 400 grit). Allison From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Oct 5 02:11:56 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 08:11:56 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 5/10/06 00:58, "listmailgoeshere at gmail.com" wrote: > On 9/21/06, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > > > > Update: no-one's interested then? Not even in part of it? > > This stuff really has to be gone soon. Looks like it's going to get > landfilled, then. Which is a shame. For me it's not a case of not wanting it, it's a case of not having enough room anywhere - all my DEC stuff is currently stored at work and now has to come here to my already-full 1 bedroom cottage while that building gets gutted and rebuilt; whether there's room for it there afterwards remains to be seen :o| -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Oct 5 02:24:13 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 03:24:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <005701c6e803$7caa0160$3201a8c0@hal> References: <005701c6e803$7caa0160$3201a8c0@hal> Message-ID: <200610050724.DAA29754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I was thinking of individual LEDs and 8x8 matrix LEDs but the driver > Ics for matrix LEDs are expensive and usually only drive 2 8x8 or, 4 > 5x7 matrix displays and they're not cheap, I can't see why they'd be expensive. One 8-bit-wide PROM, eight driver transistors, and an 8-to-1 demux would give you the ability to display lots of symbols (as many as you can fit into the PROM, which depends on how many address lines it has - eg, 12 address lines would support 2^(12-3)=512 different symbols). Perhaps I just don't understand, but I can't see why it'd be any worse to put it all on one chip.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From austin at ozpass.co.uk Thu Oct 5 02:47:20 2006 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 08:47:20 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 5/10/06 00:58, "listmailgoeshere at gmail.com" wrote: > Update: no-one's interested then? Not even in part of it? > > This stuff really has to be gone soon. Looks like it's going to get > landfilled, then. Which is a shame. > > Ed. Hi Ed. Sorry for the delayed response - I've been out of the country. Unfortunately both of my works vans are in France and Holland for the next month now, so I can only make a revised "collection" - as much Sun gear as I can fit in the back of a Ford Focus. I can come round on Sunday for it if that's any use to you. Sorry I couldn't take the lot. Kind regards, Austin. From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Thu Oct 5 05:48:40 2006 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 11:48:40 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/5/06, Austin Pass wrote: > On 5/10/06 00:58, "listmailgoeshere at gmail.com" > wrote: > > > Update: no-one's interested then? Not even in part of it? > > > > This stuff really has to be gone soon. Looks like it's going to get > > landfilled, then. Which is a shame. > > > > Ed. > > Hi Ed. > > Sorry for the delayed response - I've been out of the country. > > Unfortunately both of my works vans are in France and Holland for the next > month now, so I can only make a revised "collection" - as much Sun gear as I > can fit in the back of a Ford Focus. I can come round on Sunday for it if > that's any use to you. > > Sorry I couldn't take the lot. > > Kind regards, > Austin. Hi Austin, Yes please, this sounds good. If there's the prospect of you being able to come after a month for the rest, I could hang onto it for you as long as I had a date for when you'd be able to come for it. The address is 22 St. Margaret's Road, Bradford BD7 3AB. Please note (when you're looking at maps) that there's a "blockage" halfway down St. Margaret's Road, so to get to my house you must enter from Great Horton Road. Would you be able to give me a call between now and Sunday so I know what time you'll be arriving? The number again is 07921 136717. Regards, Ed. From javickers at solutionengineers.com Thu Oct 5 06:57:57 2006 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 12:57:57 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <011f01c6e875$93834870$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Hi Ed, It looks like I'm hiring a BFO Luton van this weekend (for unrelated purposes); therefore, I may be able show up on Sunday & take away everything that you've got left. Most/all of it would still be available for other people to have, but it would be located on Merseyside instead of Bradford :) Also, I don't have quite such a tight time constraint... The only downside is: The warehouse in which everything would be located is a bit damp/dirty & unheated, so if ppl wanted stuff that definitely still worked, they'd need to be fairly quick off the mark. Small & rare/fragile items I could put in the office, which is at least warm & dry. Cheers, Ade. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > listmailgoeshere at gmail.com > Sent: 05 October 2006 00:58 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? > > On 9/21/06, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com > wrote: > > > > Update: no-one's interested then? Not even in part of it? > > This stuff really has to be gone soon. Looks like it's going > to get landfilled, then. Which is a shame. > > Ed. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.13/463 - Release Date: 04/10/2006 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 5 09:01:08 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 14:01:08 +0000 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: References: <20060920084945.13443.qmail@web86602.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45251024.1000000@yahoo.co.uk> listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > On 9/21/06, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > > > > Update: no-one's interested then? Not even in part of it? Ed - I sent a private reply to the off-list message which you sent to all interested parties; did you not get that? (dated 29th of last month). Or is this email just a reminder to the list that the remaining items are in danger of being landfilled? cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 5 09:06:49 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 14:06:49 +0000 Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <452428BA.F9DD393A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> <452402A5.5090905@dakotacom.net> <452417E9.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> <452428BA.F9DD393A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <45251179.6000408@yahoo.co.uk> Brent Hilpert wrote: > The following may-or-may-not suit the esthetics you want to achieve, but it > certainly would have a retro/low-tech aspect to it: > > Revert to the 10-layer technique used in the early-mid-sixties. > Each digit is made up from 10 layers of clear plastic, where each layer has > dimple/dots/pixels forming 1 of the 10 numerals. Light is injected into a > layer from the side and refracts out when it hits the dimples. You know, I'd forgotten about that. Our TR-48 uses such displays IIRC. It's certainly a possibility. As you say, there's some light bleed-through between digits, but that actually adds to the effect anyway! cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 5 09:22:17 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 14:22:17 +0000 Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <4524349A.1070000@dakotacom.net> References: <452402D9.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> <452402A5.5090905@dakotacom.net> <452417E9.4060507@yahoo.co.uk> <20061004144902.N35622@shell.lmi.net> <4524349A.1070000@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <45251519.7080207@yahoo.co.uk> Don wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 4 Oct 2006, David Griffith wrote: >> or howzbout: >> rig up a multibit input (parallel port?) on a PC, wire that to the >> existing 7 segment displays, and write trivial code to display an >> image of 7 segment displays on the PC's screen (or projector!) > > Or, a mechanical actuator on an X-Y positioner to physically > place placards in the desired locations on the "display grid". Heh heh. You know me; I like thinking up electronmechanical analogues of electronic devices. I was thinking about something involving individual mechanisms for each digit, but that's way too difficult (in terms of cost / time, not complexity) to do in bulk. However I'd not really considered having just one mechanism and separate cards. I suppose the card stack needs to be large as potentially someone could place the same digit in 81 positions (no reason to during normal gameplay, but you can bet that someone would try :) There'd have to be some way of differentiating between changeable pieces and ones that are static from when the game starts, too. (Potentially, each cell could be backlit I suppose, and the colour of the backlight could be one of two colours per cell) Speed is also an issue - slow enough to see what's happening, but quick enough that it doesn't interfere with gameplay. cheers J. -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 5 09:34:40 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 14:34:40 +0000 Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <200610050724.DAA29754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <005701c6e803$7caa0160$3201a8c0@hal> <200610050724.DAA29754@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45251800.3090903@yahoo.co.uk> der Mouse wrote: >> I was thinking of individual LEDs and 8x8 matrix LEDs but the driver >> Ics for matrix LEDs are expensive and usually only drive 2 8x8 or, 4 >> 5x7 matrix displays and they're not cheap, > > I can't see why they'd be expensive. One 8-bit-wide PROM, eight driver > transistors, and an 8-to-1 demux would give you the ability to display > lots of symbols (as many as you can fit into the PROM, which depends on > how many address lines it has - eg, 12 address lines would support > 2^(12-3)=512 different symbols). I don't think it's that big a deal either, but in this situation I'm trying to keep things as simple as possible. My gut feeling for Sudoku was that: - each display cell needs 5 bits of data; 4 to encode the digit (or blank) and one to dictate whether the user could change the contents of the cell during gameplay. - 'address' is basically formed from the XY position of the cursor (possibly via some form of lookup table so that 'holes' aren't needed in memory). - n starting grids exist in some form of ROM; one of these should be selected at random and copied to 'game memory' at game start. In other words, there's not really any kind of CPU or usual buses in any kind of classic sense. However, using a SBC of some form would certainly speed up development, so I've not ruled it out. I've not sat down and seriously thought about a CPU-less design yet, though - I'm more concerned at present with whether the display side of it can be done (cheaply). -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Thu Oct 5 09:45:17 2006 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 15:45:17 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi list, Here is the current state of play with this: Simon at Bletchley has kindly agreed to take and look after anything anyone in the South wants, until they can collect it from Bletchley. Ade Vickers has also kindly offered to look after anything wanted by anyone in the North, however his storage is non-optimal so you'd best be quick about retrieving whatever it is you want before it succumbs to damp/cold. It looks like Ade will be taking everything that's "left over" rather than it being landfilled :) With that (and those who have contacted me on/off list) in mind, here is the current list of what's earmarked for who. Please shout if: * you're listed against something on here but you no longer want it, or will be unable to collect it from either Merseyside or Bletchley within a reasonable timeframe * no-one is listed against something on here, and you want it > Here goes: > > HP 85 - 5 machines (one or two may be missing a few keys). I posted > about these (and the 86Bs) on this list a while ago. > HP 86B - 3 machines. All work, for varying degrees of "work". One > seems totally OK, one seems to work but various characters of the > screen are stuck as "M" right from switch on, so I'm guessing video > RAM trouble. One has an unresponsive keyboard - a couple of the keys > work but that's it. This one also has keys missing, so is probably > best used as spares for the other two. > There are RAM cartridges and ROM drawers on offer with these as well, > also 5 off 9121 dual single-sided 3.5" HPIB drive and 1 off 9122 dual > double-sided 3.5" HPIB drive, also 3 brand new rolls of paper and 6 > tape cartridges All above to John Shadbolt, although I will look through the ROMs first to see if anything needs to go to Vassilis to be archived. > Sun Ultra 2 300(ish)MHz - 384(ish)MB RAM > Sun Ultra 1 140MHz, not sure how much memory is in it > Sun SPARCstation 4, 110MHz, 96MB RAM, 1GB (I think) disk > Sun SPARCstation 5, 90MHz, there's some memory in it but not sure how much > Sun SPARCstation 2, 2 off, there's memory and disks in both > Sun SPARCstation IPX, 2 off, both have memory and disks I think > Sun SPARCclassic, faulty > Sun SPARCstation SLC, has memory > Sun SPARCstation ELC, has memory > Sun SPARCstation ELC (faulty) - not sure if this one has memory > Box of the system board and socket board combos from > died-of-video-problems SPARCstation ELCs. There are about 8 or so of > these, all have memory IIRC. > Sun EXP-2 disk pack (the 386i style one) - 4 (one is for spares only). > All have disks and/or tape drives in > Sun type 411 disk enclosure, DAT tape drive fitted > Sun type 411 disk enclosure, 4.3GB IBM harddisk fitted > Sun type 611 UniPack disk enclosure, 7 off, all closed-face type. > Most, if not all, have various low-ish size harddisks fitted > Sun type 711 MultiPack disk enclosure, takes 12 SCA harddisks in SPUD > brackets, complete with keys > Sun "SBUS Expansion" with card and cable > Sun GDM-17E10 17" monitor. Last known working, can't guarantee it still is > Sun CPD-1790 17" monitor, works > Sun GDM-20D10 20" monitor, 2 off. Both have different faults. One > works fine once it's warmed up, but while it does the size of the > screen "bounces" alarmingly all over the place. One has (as is written > on the casing in biro) "LINE JITTER PROBLEM". These are stunning > looking monitors - one even has its IR remote control. Make one good > one out of the pair All above to Austin Pass > SGI 14" monitor. Yes, I didn't realise that any 13w3 monitors were > ever made this small, but here it is. Don't know the model number > offhand, sorry No-one yet > Huge box full of SBUS and UPA cards. Along with loads of CG3 and > 501-2015s and stuff, there are some rarities in here (Vigra VGA cards, > 4 off; others as well) > Box full of Sun accessories - audio output breakouts, serial adaptors, > drive mounting sleds, all kinds of stuff Above to Austin Pass > Huge box* full of SCSI cables of all varieties, from Sun DD50 right up to VHDCI To either Austin Pass, Bletchley, or split between > Huge box* full of serial cables and RS232/MMJ-related adaptors Bletchley? No-one yet, I don't think > Huge box* full of IEC 320 power leads No-one yet > Boxes of mice (Sun SDB, PS2 and serial) SDB ones to Austin Pass, no-one for the PC ones yet > About 10 PC keyboards Bin ;) > About 10 Sun Type 4 keyboards > One or two Sun Type 5 keyboards > One Sun Type 6 USB keyboard Two or three to Bletchley, rest to Austin Pass > DEC MicroVAX 3100-30 - not sure if these have memory, they don't have disks Simon Fryer/Bletchley? > DEC LA38 teletype No-one yet. Will be kept rather than landfilled, though, assuming it works, as I have a project in mind for it now :) > DEC VT510 dumb terminal - 2 off > DEC BA356 disk array - full of 4.3GB and 9.1GB drives. Has a > personality module fitted, but I couldn't tell you what kind it is > Other dumb terminals - there are about 20 of various kinds, including > a Lear-Siegler ADM-11 which is retro-tastic No-one for any of this yet > Box of old SCSI ... Bletchley > ...and IDE harddisks No-one yet > 19" rack mount 10baseT network hub - 24 ports I think > Drawer full of motherboards, 486 to Pentium era > Various old media (including some hard-sectored 8" floppes which I > think belong to something Tektronix) Old floppies to Bletchley, no-one for any of the rest yet > 3.5" floppy disk boxes - 3 of the "square" style (2 disks wide) and > one of the "narrow" style (1 disk wide) No-one yet > Mac Plus 1Mb. Also an Apple 20SC harddisk to go with this - don't have > the cable, though. Bletchley > Few miscellaneous external SCSI disk enclosures of various sizes > Some x86 machines - few 486s, couple of Pentia (~120MHz) and two more > interesting machines: > - One DEC which has the CPU on a removable daughterboard (I have 3 of > said boards - two are a single 486 and one is two Socket 5 Pentia. I > can even give you the matched pair of P133 CPUs I bought to put in > this). This machine has onboard Adaptec Wide SCSI. > One Full Tower AT - will take (IIRC) 5 3.5" drives in a nifty > swing-out cage, and 5 half-height drives (CDROMs etc). Currently > fitted with a P200 with 64MB RAM and an Adaptec 2940W SCSI card. No-one yet. > APC UPS system (don't know the model number offhand, but a smallish > one) - batteries are duff, but I bought a slightly bigger battery > (which has to go outside the case) and all the necessary big wires and > connectors to be able to wire it in for use Bletchley > Entire shelf full of CDROM drives, including 4 Nakamichi 5-disc > changers (two SCSI and two IDE) Think the changers are spoken for by a friend of mine, no-one for the others yet > 7 off 3.5" HD floppy drives > Several large bags full of various cables and x86 accessories (floppy, IDE, ...) > Few boxes of various ISA/VLB/PCI cards - mainly graphics and network > Probably a bit more stuff that I haven't listed, as well No-one yet > The catch: you must take it ALL. No longer the case. Just take some of it. Even just one item if that's all you want. > How much? Make me an offer. The offer can be from "free but I can have > it gone REAL SOON" upwards. I really wouldn't say no to some cash ;) Definitely still applies given that my car has just failed its MOT :( Ed. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 5 11:46:56 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 16:46:56 +0000 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45253700.8020106@yahoo.co.uk> Few more thoughts from my end - comments below... >> Huge box* full of SCSI cables of all varieties, from Sun DD50 right up >> to VHDCI > > To either Austin Pass, Bletchley, or split between We actually have a need for a pair of VHDCI-to-68pin cables of 16" or greater length (we've got a 'shallow' server machine that has VHDCI which won't reach any of the deeper disk shelves that we have due to our VHDCI cables all being too short). Beyond that, SCSI cables tend to get used so it'd be nice to keep them out of landfill, but it's the sort of thing we can probably source easier than private collectors as and when needed - so if any individuals have desperate needs for stuff then yell... >> Huge box* full of serial cables and RS232/MMJ-related adaptors > > Bletchley? No-one yet, I don't think Hmm, we're forever scrabbling around for null modem cables, gender changers, and 9-25 pin adapters; if you happen to have any that are labelled up as such and there's room to move them, then throw some in... >> Boxes of mice (Sun SDB, PS2 and serial) > > SDB ones to Austin Pass, no-one for the PC ones yet Some 3-button PS/2 (and to a lesser extent serial) ones would be handy (I'm a particular fan of older Logitech ones before they went all contoured to suit right-handers only). No need for 2-button stuff, however! >> About 10 PC keyboards > > Bin ;) Hmm, could use 5 (say) PS/2 ones if you have any that aren't too shabby. We've got a few machines around (Xterms, Acorns etc.) for which we don't have enough keyboards. Plus every time I needed a PC set up for anything it took me a good 30 mins to find a darn keyboard for it... >> Other dumb terminals - there are about 20 of various kinds Any Cifer? I've got a chap contacted us the other day looking for some specific Cifer models for a project (he's still digging out precise model numbers for me) >> ...and IDE harddisks What sort of size, out of interest? I could use a couple at around the 2GB mark if there happen to be any. Finding IDE drives < 500MB and > 6GB seems easy, but I've never had much luck with anything between. >> Entire shelf full of CDROM drives, including 4 Nakamichi 5-disc >> changers (two SCSI and two IDE) > > Think the changers are spoken for by a friend of mine, no-one for the > others yet If there are a couple of SCSI ones that are jumperable between 515/2048 bytes/sector then throw them in the pile; we can use them for various things. All of this space-permitting, of course. Don't worry about it if the transport issues get difficult! cheers Jules -- A. Because it destroys the natural flow of conversation. Q. What's wrong with top posting ? From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Oct 5 12:42:10 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 18:42:10 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 05 Oct 2006 15:45:17 BST." Message-ID: <200610051742.SAA19571@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Ed said: > Hi list, > > Here is the current state of play with this: > > Simon at Bletchley has kindly agreed to take and look after anything > anyone in the South wants, until they can collect it from Bletchley. > > Ade Vickers has also kindly offered to look after anything wanted by > anyone in the North, however his storage is non-optimal so you'd best > be quick about retrieving whatever it is you want before it succumbs > to damp/cold. It looks like Ade will be taking everything that's "left > over" rather than it being landfilled :) > > With that (and those who have contacted me on/off list) in mind, here > is the current list of what's earmarked for who. Please shout if: > > * you're listed against something on here but you no longer want it, > or will be unable to collect it from either Merseyside or Bletchley > within a reasonable timeframe > > > DEC VT510 dumb terminal - 2 off > > DEC BA356 disk array - full of 4.3GB and 9.1GB drives. Has a > > personality module fitted, but I couldn't tell you what kind it is > > Other dumb terminals - there are about 20 of various kinds, including > > a Lear-Siegler ADM-11 which is retro-tastic > > No-one for any of this yet I need a few terminals, and in spite of my other email, I _can_ pick up on Merseyside (I live there...). Not sure I can store 20 of 'em though! I remember the Lear-Sieglers, very '70s sci-fi :-) Any surplus Sun stuff no-one else wants might be found a home too, rather than see it become land-fill. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Oct 5 13:05:55 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 19:05:55 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 05 Oct 2006 16:46:56 -0000." <45253700.8020106@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200610051805.TAA19618@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jules Richardson said: > >> Other dumb terminals - there are about 20 of various kinds > > Any Cifer? I've got a chap contacted us the other day looking for some > specific Cifer models for a project (he's still digging out precise model > numbers for me) I have a Cifer T-5 for which I never succeded in finding a keyboard. Powers up but displays some garbage characters (upside down question marks IIRC). It's unlikely I'll ever use it. Transport _would_ be a problem though... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Oct 5 03:14:26 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 09:14:26 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 05 Oct 2006 08:11:56 BST." Message-ID: <200610050814.JAA18249@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Adrian Graham said: > On 5/10/06 00:58, "listmailgoeshere at gmail.com" > wrote: > > > On 9/21/06, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > > Update: no-one's interested then? Not even in part of it? > > > > This stuff really has to be gone soon. Looks like it's going to get > > landfilled, then. Which is a shame. > > For me it's not a case of not wanting it, it's a case of not having enough > room anywhere - all my DEC stuff is currently stored at work and now has to > come here to my already-full 1 bedroom cottage while that building gets > gutted and rebuilt; whether there's room for it there afterwards remains to > be seen :o| I would be interested too, but there is absolutely *no* way I could collect anything. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Oct 5 13:52:23 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 11:52:23 -0700 Subject: LX network woes Message-ID: <45255467.603@dakotacom.net> Hi, In the past, I've run my LX on a 10Base5 network using a transceiver on the MII connector. Today, I opted to move it to a 10BaseT hub -- using the "internal" TP connector (adjacent to the ISDN ports). Long story short: it doesn't work. :> Observations: - hub light does not illuminate when cable to LX is plugged in - hub light illuminates when plugged into *second* I/F on the LX (a narrow SCSI + ethernet SBUS card) - able to ping other hosts if I bring this second I/F up i.e. cable and hub port are good - attempts to ping other hosts when using the "first" I/F (prior to configuring the second I/F) result in the "other" host's ARP cache catching the MAC of the LX (i.e. the Tx pair from the LX appears to be intact) -- thogh no replies received Is this some configuration quirk that I have overlooked? (note that the hub light should? illuminate even with NO software running) Perhaps related to the autoselect characteristics of the built-in I/F?? Or, is something broken in the LX (connector pins seem intact)? If the latter, are there any bits I can salvage from the Classic that is sitting in my recycle pile? (or, should I simply add the LX to that same pile? :< ) [note the option of using the second I/F is not viable as that SBUS card will be removed, soon] Thanks! --don From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Oct 5 14:03:01 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 15:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LX network woes In-Reply-To: <45255467.603@dakotacom.net> References: <45255467.603@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Don wrote: > Is this some configuration quirk that I have overlooked? > (note that the hub light should? illuminate even with NO > software running) Perhaps related to the autoselect > characteristics of the built-in I/F?? Make sure you have the AUI interface disconnected, and the TPE cable connected to the Hub when you power on the system. What OS, Solaris or SunOS? If you're running Solaris, you may need to do a 'boot -r' to refresh the device list. In case you don't have it, here's the service manual: http://www.sun.com/products-n-solutions/hardware/docs/pdf/801-2176-13.pdf The 'test net-tpe' diagnostic will check your built-in port, if connected to a hub. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From austin at ozpass.co.uk Thu Oct 5 11:27:46 2006 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 17:27:46 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 5/10/06 15:45, "listmailgoeshere at gmail.com" wrote: > * you're listed against something on here but you no longer want it, > or will be unable to collect it from either Merseyside or Bletchley > within a reasonable timeframe Hi Ed, all. With regard to my (substantial) "shopping list" ;-) I'm now down to a Ford Focus for transport. With that in mind I'll happily defer to anybody else with regard to any items "assigned" to me. I'll call yourself and Ade tomorrow for directions / to coordinate with Ade with regards to arrival time etc. -Austin. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Oct 5 15:26:45 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2006 13:26:45 -0700 Subject: LX network woes In-Reply-To: References: <45255467.603@dakotacom.net> Message-ID: <45256A84.9020803@dakotacom.net> Mike Loewen wrote: > On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Don wrote: > >> Is this some configuration quirk that I have overlooked? >> (note that the hub light should? illuminate even with NO >> software running) Perhaps related to the autoselect >> characteristics of the built-in I/F?? > > Make sure you have the AUI interface disconnected, and the TPE cable > connected to the Hub when you power on the system. Yes on both counts. > What OS, Solaris or SunOS? If you're running Solaris, you > may need to do a 'boot -r' to refresh the device list. NetBSD. Though I can drag out a Solaris system disk to try... > In case you don't have it, here's the service manual: > > http://www.sun.com/products-n-solutions/hardware/docs/pdf/801-2176-13.pdf > > The 'test net-tpe' diagnostic will check your built-in port, if > connected to a hub. Yes -- though it will report "success" on the external loopback even if not connected to a hub :-( When no media type is specified in the ifconfig (defaults to auto select), a subsequent 'ifconfig -a' reports that it has picked 10baseT and is "active". When an explicit "media 10BaseT" is added to the ifconfig to bring the i/f up, I note that outgoing pings seem to *blink* the hub light (whereas the SS5 plugged in next to it keeps the hub light lit, solid). I'll pull the Classic out of the recycle pile and see how *it* behaves (from the ok prompt)... From jwhitton at bellsouth.net Thu Oct 5 15:20:09 2006 From: jwhitton at bellsouth.net (jwhitton) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 16:20:09 -0400 Subject: Part needed: Clock chip MM58274 or variant Message-ID: <003d01c6e8bb$a7eb9380$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> This is an obsolete National part..., once ubiquitous, now difficult to obtain..., unless you want 100 of them. I only need two. Anyone happen to have a couple about? Hit me off-list if so. I've tried the usual catalog sources, no luck. TIA John From sdc695 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 5 23:43:15 2006 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2006 21:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making large numeric displays Message-ID: <20061006044315.63237.qmail@web60822.mail.yahoo.com> I wanted to make this with Lumlines (incandencent lamps that are 1 inch diameter and 1 foot long). The problem is that while you can (you need to look REAL HARD) get the light bulbs, the sockets aren't made any more. The cost would be a bit steep as well, since the light bulbs are over $10/ea, and just for 2 digits it would cost $140. A full digital clock (assuming a 24hour display) would cost over $280 just for the tubes. It would be impressive (a nice large display) for the "war room" clock display. The incandecent lights would be easier to control and be a nice to control. The nice thing about Lumlines is that the connectors for the lights are VERY compact and close to the tube. It would make a cool clock. Now if I can get Leviton (http://www.levitonproducts.com) to make the sockets again, I'd be set! Lobbying welcome, but I suspect I'll need to wait. (*SIGH*) -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Oct 6 04:01:53 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:01:53 +0200 Subject: information about the PDP-11/68 (also for PDP-11 FAQ: The Never 11's) Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488003@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi all, last week I had 2 visitors from HP Storage Systems in my museum. They both started with DIGITAL back in 1981, and love the old systems. They have visited me before :-) While in my little museum they saw the H960 rack with the console of the PDP-11/60 on a 10.5" filler panel, and said something about a 'nice mock-up'. Ahh, I said, that is *not* a mock-up, but a real operational 11/60, but I did not have the space for the low-boy corporate cabinet, so I built the complete 11/60 in this H960 rack. To prove it, I switched on the system :-) You can read the story of the 11/60 on my website (PDP-11/60 folder, "11/60 in H960 rack"). Anyway, one tech told me that there was also a PDP-11/68 (no typo)! The 11/68 was just like the famous 11/74, he told. DIGITAL delivered four 11/74 to customers, but called those machines back. 3 Customers obeyed, but one (AT&T) said "forget it", and never returned the 11/74 to DIGITAL. The tech also told that the 11/68 was cancelled because it would out-perform the other new introduced machine (VAX-11/780, et al). I found a very small bit of information in the PDP-11 FAQ, in the section "The Never 11's" ... Don North added the following *first hand* information: My recollection of the 11/68 was that it was a follow on to the 11/60, intended to remedy the shortcomings (18b vs 22b mode) and increase performance to beyond 11/70 level (ie, be an 11/70 replacement). It was staffed by mostly the key designers from the 11/60 project. IIRC technology was to be the same gatearrays (400 cell TI ISTL?) that were ultimately used in the VAX Comet aka 11/750. At this time I had moved from 11/60 diagnostics to 11/74 CISP microcode. Most of the 11/68 (then known as 11/6X) development was in the next aisle over in the facility in Tewksbury MA. Anyway, I don't think the 11/68 project was all the widely known. It never got past the paper design stage before it was canceled. Most of the design team ended up leaving DEC shortly after to join Three Rivers (aka PERQ) in establishing a design center in Massachusetts (Three Rivers was located in Pittsburgh near CMU and they had trouble attracting people to come there). I even went there for an interview but declined the job offer. Good thing; the Mass design center lasted about 9mos or so before folding. Seems the CTO/Founder of Three Rivers just could not 'let go' of the desire/need to make EVERY technical decision for the company. Having a remote design center of course was then impossible. All the ex-DEC/PERQ guys then went on to form a startup (Mosaic Technologies) which built a graphical workstation using the newly announced National NS32032 VAX-like CPU. They had a booth at SIGGRAPH 80 or 81 IIRC but then shortly ran out of money, and later folded. Perhaps, this is info to be added to "The Never 11's" section ? - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Oct 6 04:24:00 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:24:00 +0200 Subject: how do I copy an RD54 completely? Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488004@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I have an RD54 with a working RSTS system (V10.?) on it. The RD54 was installed in the microPDP-11/93 that I had. I have a microPDP-11/53 with RQDX3 and got a few days ago an Emulex UC07 QBUS SCSI interface with a 1 Gb SCSI disk. Before I mess up the RSTS (because I don't know anything about RSTS yet), I would like to make a copy (dump?) of the complete RD54 to the SCSI disk, so I can restore the whole RD54 to an other RD54 if this one dies ... or is messed up completely by me :-) I think the following steps are a starter (?): 1) install the UC07 and connect the SCSI disk 2) connect the RD54 to the RQDX3 3) start the system till the RSTS "Option" prompt Then what? First, I need to know the device names. Is there some command like RT-11 ".SH DEV" available in RSTS? Then I probably need to initialise the SCSI disk? Then I need some sort of command to get *everything* from the RD54 to the SCSI disk ... Any help is appreciated! TIA, - Henk, PA8PDP This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 6 09:52:36 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 07:52:36 -0700 Subject: Resetting connectors (Was: Personal Iris IRIX issues..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: Mark Tapley > >At 19:30 -0500 9/17/06, Jochen Kunz wrote: >>Sometimes it helps this old hardware to be "kreidlered". I.e. >>disassemble the whole machine, reaseat all PCBs and connectors and try >>again. (Sometimes connectors get a litle bit of corrosion etc. that is >>cleand out by un- and repluging the connector.) > > Thirded (1). I have a Mac Plus with Brainstorm accelerator (16 MHz 68000, >plus SCSI chip upgrade). It has been giving me fits with intermittent >operation for years. Tuning the 5V setting on the analog board *right up* >against (but not over) the crowbar seemed to help, but it'd still reset >periodically. Best diagnostic I have is (unfortunately) still a Radio Shack >Archerkit analog VOM, which does not show momentary Voltage transients. > Finally, this month, I was doing battle with it again, got the 5V setting >tweaked up and the machine running face down, but then it failed when I set >it back up on its feet. At long last, during the post-failure examination, >I took loose and re-seated the power cable from the analog to digital board >at the *analog board* end. I'd done this dozens of times at the *digital >board* end - that's a lot less likely to take out the end of the CRT when >my hand slips - but not at the analog board end. > Machine has been running without problems since then. Wife is re-addicted >to Dark Castle (and I have to put in a good word for Delta Tao on that >score, they just sold me, at a discount, the original software! (2) ), kids >getting addicted to Concertware + MIDI. Next project may be to find a MIDI >interface for the thing and start learning more about digital music. > >(1) I'm curious about the etymology - where does the expression >"kreidlered" come from? > >(2) Not affiliated, but if I had to choose one company in the field to hold >up as wonderful, Delta Tao would be it. >-- > Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer > (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) > 210-379-4635 Hi I recommend putting silicon grease on the connectors before reseating them. DC#4 is the purest but I've had good luck with things like Silglyde from automotive stores. Most electrical supply shops care DC#4. As I've stated before, do not use petrolium greases. While protecting the contact, it will also make the contact worse instead of better. Silicon grease will improve the contact, for even old oxidized and burnt power connectors, as well as protecting them. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 6 12:22:25 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <20061006044315.63237.qmail@web60822.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061006044315.63237.qmail@web60822.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061006102146.J45884@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Tom Watson wrote: > I wanted to make this with Lumlines (incandencent lamps that are 1 inch > diameter and 1 foot long). The problem is that while you can (you need to look > REAL HARD) get the light bulbs, the sockets aren't made any more. The cost Howzbout: aquarium bulbs - standard edison base From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 6 12:36:41 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 10:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <20061006102146.J45884@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20061006173641.60971.qmail@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 5 Oct 2006, Tom Watson wrote: > > I wanted to make this with Lumlines (incandencent > lamps that are 1 inch > > diameter and 1 foot long). The problem is that > while you can (you need to look > > REAL HARD) get the light bulbs, the sockets aren't > made any more. The cost What about using the small backlight bulbs and inverters used in laptop computers? The inverters have on/off control and sometimes dimming and the bulbs are available in many lengths. Bob From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 6 12:57:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 10:57:15 -0700 Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <20061006102146.J45884@shell.lmi.net> References: <20061006044315.63237.qmail@web60822.mail.yahoo.com> <20061006102146.J45884@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200610061057150354.48B8596A@10.0.0.252> On 10/6/2006 at 10:22 AM Fred Cisin wrote: >aquarium bulbs - standard edison base At those wattages, it might be just as easy to make a light box with mechanical shutters over each segment... I wonder if nitinol wire could be used. Cheers, Chuck From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Oct 6 13:06:02 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:06:02 -0500 Subject: how do I copy an RD54 completely? In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488004@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <000301c6e972$15a33980$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Fairly complex topic, but lucky you - I have a very similar setup. Since you are using a UC07, which is the exact same controller I use in my /23+ with RSTS, I know you can partition the disk using the controller - MAKE SURE the disk is hard partitioned by the controller to be below 2GB in size, as RSTS/E does not like disk sizes larger than 2GB (you will get the repeated, rather funny message "THE DISK IS TOO LARGE!") If you have another RD54, you can use SAVRES to image the disk over to another RD54. If you want to replace the disk with a SCSI device, install the UC07 and disk drive, and then when the "Options " prompt comes up, type DSKINT. It will ask you which disk, so put in the correct DUxx: designator, we'll use DU1: in this example. Other than that, you can pick the defaults for everything else up to "Patterns? <3>". I'd let it do the 3 patterns to make sure the disk is reliable, but if you don't want to wait hours for the disk to initialize 3 times, you can put in '0' and 'Y' to erase the disk. Now that you have the freshly formatted disk, you should be returned to the DSKINT program, press Ctrl-Z. At the "Options " prompt, type COPY. It'll prompt you for a disk, enter your DUxx: designator again for the SCSI device.It should then copy the correct files for a bootable (but not useful) system to the new disk. Hit CTRL-Z again and go ahead and start the system. Log in as 1,2 and hopefully you know the password, if you don't, at the "Continue system startup " prompt, just say no and then do a "SET PASSWORD [1,2]", then use "RUN $SHUTUP" to reboot the system. >From that point, all you need to do is use BACKUP and RESTORE once logged in to move your data to the new disk. If you've got a > 2gb disk, you can DSKINT the other hard partition and run your backup file to that, otherwise you need a magtape for this. What you do is enter "BACKUP DU0:[*,*]*.* DU2:BACKUP.BCK" where DU0: would be the RD54 and DU1: would be the SCSI device. Then "RESTORE DU2:BACKUP.BCK DU1:" Go ahead and overwrite everything that was laid down by the COPY. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me off list or find me pretty much 24/7 in #ClassicCmp IRC on the Freenode network. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gooijen, Henk > Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 4:24 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: how do I copy an RD54 completely? > > > I have an RD54 with a working RSTS system (V10.?) on it. > The RD54 was installed in the microPDP-11/93 that I had. > I have a microPDP-11/53 with RQDX3 and got a few days ago an > Emulex UC07 QBUS SCSI interface with a 1 Gb SCSI disk. > > Before I mess up the RSTS (because I don't know anything > about RSTS yet), I would like to make a copy (dump?) of the > complete RD54 to the SCSI disk, so I can restore the whole > RD54 to an other RD54 if this one dies ... or is messed up > completely by me :-) > > I think the following steps are a starter (?): > 1) install the UC07 and connect the SCSI disk > 2) connect the RD54 to the RQDX3 > 3) start the system till the RSTS "Option" prompt > > Then what? > First, I need to know the device names. Is there some command > like RT-11 ".SH DEV" available in RSTS? > Then I probably need to initialise the SCSI disk? > Then I need some sort of command to get *everything* from the > RD54 to the SCSI disk ... > > Any help is appreciated! > TIA, > - Henk, PA8PDP > > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the > use of the addressee and may contain information that is > privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure > under applicable law. > If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof > responsible for delivering this message to the intended > recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, > distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly > prohibited. > If you have received this communication in error, please > notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" > message. > Thank you for your cooperation. > > > > From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 6 13:16:17 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 14:16:17 -0400 Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <20061006173641.60971.qmail@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200610061814.k96IEKsK098616@keith.ezwind.net> >What about using the small backlight bulbs and >inverters used in laptop computers? The inverters have >on/off control and sometimes dimming and the bulbs are >available in many lengths. >Bob Nice idea BUT ... This is ClasicComp where many of us pay storage fees to keep old computers from the scrapper. With that in mind, just how many old laptops would have to give their lives to complete the project at 1 segment per laptop. Finding that many laptops with matching tubes and and inverters would be a project ! I know may of the early laptops used the same generic inverter and tubes but at the least, they would all need to be pulled from the same size screen. Due to the exploding battery problems, I think we will see a large supply of soon to be old laptops all with missing or dead sony batteries in the next few years. Till later.... The other Bob From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 6 13:40:22 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 11:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <200610061814.k96IEKsK098616@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20061006184022.51849.qmail@web82712.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Nice idea BUT ... > > This is ClasicComp where many of us pay storage fees > to keep old computers from the scrapper. > With that in mind, just how many old laptops would > have to give their lives to complete the project at > 1 segment > per laptop. You can buy them surplus, new, without having to kill a single laptop. I bought a box (50) to play with about a year ago. Also, I got 8 really nice ones from a broken desktop monitor, had a cracked screen. They are almost 14" long with inverters for every two tubes. Bob From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Fri Oct 6 13:48:58 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 19:48:58 +0100 Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <20061006044315.63237.qmail@web60822.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000401c6e978$14d46910$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > The cost > would be a bit steep as well, since the light bulbs are over > $10/ea, and just > for 2 digits it would cost $140. A full digital clock (assuming a 24hour > display) would cost over $280 just for the tubes. It would be > impressive (a > nice large display) for the "war room" clock display. The > incandecent lights > would be easier to control and be a nice to control. You might like to look at the LED "equivalent" (eg eBay lot 220034483745) - still quite expensive but probably easier to drive and available in various colours and sizes. Andy From auringer at tds.net Fri Oct 6 16:26:21 2006 From: auringer at tds.net (Jon Auringer) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 16:26:21 -0500 Subject: HP "I" class on eBay Message-ID: <4526C9FD.6040304@tds.net> There is a slightly mislabeled auction for an HP 9000 800/I70. The seller sent me a picture of the back that shows HP part # A2362A. It seems to be complete and well configured. Since it is fairly close to me I was thinking about bidding on it, but I really don't have time to do anything with it, so I decided to pass. If you live near Iowa, take a look. Auction: 110040472514 Jon From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Oct 6 16:51:54 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 17:51:54 -0400 Subject: Free desktop alpha in eastern US Message-ID: If you want it, you pay actual shipping only. I listed it on ebay but it was not sold. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280023101826 From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Oct 6 17:45:58 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 18:45:58 -0400 Subject: Cleaning out old chips.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4526DCA6.2080307@atarimuseum.com> I have a pile of tubes with various eprom, sram's and other assorted PAL, MCU's and other goodies that are not being used and I am looking to sell off, please contact me offlist for interest in any/all items: PAL16R4ANC - Quantity 15 M27C1001-20FL - Quantity 206 MC27C1001 - Quantity 34 MC27C256Q - Quantity 3 M27256-2FL - Quantity 23 AM2764DC - Quantity 37 TC5710000-15 - Quantity 7 DM74LS02N - Quantity 40 HN462532G - Quantity 164 M5M5256P-12L - Quantity 9 SRM20256LC12 - Quantity 175 MC2764Q - Quantity 15 CXK58256PM-12 - Quantity 7 MC27CP128Q - Quantity 14 TIPAL16L8-25CN - Quantity 70 84256-10L - Quantity 16 TC5710000 - Quantity 51 TMM27128AD-20 - Quantity 78 NMC27CP128Q - Quantity 131 TC5516APL - Quantity 8 D27128 - Quantity 13 NMC27C64Q - Quantity 9 M5M5256LP-12 - Quantity 14 NMC27C256Q - Quantity 21 DM74LS02N - Quantity 50 GI PIC 1670-021 - Quantity 1 TC571001D-20 - Quantity 31 KM681000LP-10 - Quantity 8 AY8930 - Quantity 4 AM27C040 - Quantity 10 email directly to curt (~AT~) atarimuseum (~DOT~) com Curt From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 6 17:52:40 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 23:52:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <200610061814.k96IEKsK098616@keith.ezwind.net> from "Bob" at Oct 6, 6 02:16:17 pm Message-ID: > This is ClasicComp where many of us pay storage fees to keep old > computers from the scrapper. > With that in mind, just how many old laptops would have to give their > lives to complete the project at 1 segment > per laptop. Oh come on... Do you really think that 486 and Pentium laptops are 'classic' ? The true classic laptops -- things like the Epson HX20, PX4, PX8, TRS-80 Model 100, HP110 and HP110+, etc -- do not have backlit displays.. Now if you'd suggested raiding HP9830s for the dot matrix LED modules, then I would send some strong messages to the list! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 6 17:49:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 23:49:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Making large numeric displays In-Reply-To: <20061006173641.60971.qmail@web82715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "Bob Rosenbloom" at Oct 6, 6 10:36:41 am Message-ID: > What about using the small backlight bulbs and > inverters used in laptop computers? The inverters have > on/off control and sometimes dimming and the bulbs are > available in many lengths. I've seen similar tubes sold (new) for 'case modding'. And also the inverter modules to power them. Mind you, I'd not want to pay for enough to make a clock display! -tony From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Fri Oct 6 19:10:44 2006 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 01:10:44 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/14/06, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > Forgot to mention: two DEC VR201 monitors. One (amber tube) worked for about 10 minutes and then did no longer. One (white tube) carried on working, and TTBOMK still does. I used the white one to test the HP 86Bs with. Also, a broken VT220. Isn't there some thing about not being a proper geek until you've owned a broken VT220? ;) Ed. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 6 19:15:55 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 13:15:55 +1300 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/7/06, listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > Also, a broken VT220. Isn't there some thing about not being a proper > geek until you've owned a broken VT220? ;) Heh... I owned a working VT220 for *years* until I owned a broken one ;-) The most common cause I've seen on those, BTW, if the video and keyboard work (i.e. - not a flyback problem) is the 9636/9637 EIA drivers/receivers blowing out. It's a quick fix if you have any on-hand. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 6 19:22:25 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 01:22:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: from "listmailgoeshere@gmail.com" at Oct 7, 6 01:10:44 am Message-ID: > Also, a broken VT220. Isn't there some thing about not being a proper > geek until you've owned a broken VT220? ;) s/owned/fixed/ surely :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 6 19:28:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 01:28:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 7, 6 01:15:55 pm Message-ID: > Heh... I owned a working VT220 for *years* until I owned a broken one ;-) > > The most common cause I've seen on those, BTW, if the video and > keyboard work (i.e. - not a flyback problem) is the 9636/9637 EIA Actually, I've found VT220 flyback transformers to be very reliable, which is more than I can say for the ones in VT320s and VT330s... Anyway, a common problem I've had with VT220s is a loss of horizontal lock. The cure seems to be to remove the case, then turn the 'H Hold' prset from end to end a few times, then power up and set said preset to the midpoint of the range where the horizontal deflection locks. Turn off and on again to make sure it locks correctly at power-up. Oh yes, one other tip. Extend the 'leg' fully before trying to get the case off. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 6 20:37:13 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2006 01:37:13 +0000 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <452704C9.2090006@yahoo.co.uk> listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > Also, a broken VT220. Isn't there some thing about not being a proper > geek until you've owned a broken VT220? ;) Given how many broken VT220s there are around these days, no, not any more :-) From evan at snarc.net Sat Oct 7 10:11:00 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 11:11:00 -0400 Subject: Come to the swap meet!!!!!! Message-ID: <200610071511.k97FBGYR028241@keith.ezwind.net> Hi all... We're having fun down here in Delaware but we could really use more of a crowd. All kinds of good stuff for sale and swap. PLEASE come check it out to support the club. Tell all your techie friends to come too. For details see www.marchclub.org - Evan Koblentz From f5inl at wanadoo.fr Sat Oct 7 11:29:30 2006 From: f5inl at wanadoo.fr (Frederic BOSSU) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 18:29:30 +0200 Subject: === IBM s/36 model 5363 === Message-ID: <000001c6ea2d$c444a9e0$0b01a8c0@p4> Hi guys ! Who could help me with that machine? Here is my problem : I've been given an IBM 5363 with an IBM 3197 terminal (twinax). The machine boots well (or seems to do so !), and after few minutes, I can obtain on my display the IPL configuration screen, asking me for my user ID and password. The problem is that whatever I type on the keyboard, NOTHING APPEARS ON THE SCREEN !!!!!! I can only ear the disk drive of the 5363 that is running. As I own three keyboards, I tried to change them, but the problem is always the same... I didn't know what to do , so I simply entered the "E" function on the front pannel of the computer, that made him stop. And I switched it off. Could anyone tell me why the characters don't appear on the screen ? When I strike a key, I just obtain a little blinking cross "X" , that is written on the last line, located at the bottom-left side of the CRT. I'm also looking for images of the IPL and diagnostic disks. Hoping to read from you soon, Fred BOSSU From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 7 13:50:01 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 11:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: naval jelly In-Reply-To: <200610031541.k93Fft1C012416@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20061007185001.13739.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> I haven't been following the thread, and even attempted to find it's origin in the archives with no success (ok I didn't try very hard). But for what it's worth, a good way of removing rust is with a scotch brite and/or fine steel wool and light oil (wd-40 or Liquid Wrench say). I'm not sure the grocery store variety of SBs will work, but maybe it would (perhaps all of them have the little flecks of metal imbedded in it's fibers). But start out with the steel wool. The finest grade is #0000 and can be bought from craft stores, often even the big ones. For this application (?) it should be a good as any method, but careful on machine tools cuz it WILL remove tiny amounts of metal. I went to work on an area of an old Pratt & Whitney lathe with visual hand-scraping marks (an indication of a VERY fine dimensional finish)...and they went away sniff. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 7 14:07:40 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 12:07:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: <20061002142409.19816.qmail@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061007190740.59864.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> there were a couple of big Wangs back in the day. Is anyone out there knowledgeable of the different early Wangs machines. Details of such have eluded me to date. There is something on Ebay right now (closing fast), but this isn't as old as anything here that's being talked about, but still of interest. http://cgi.ebay.com/Wang-Office-Assistant-WOA-40-Computer_ W0QQitemZ290034430165QQihZ019QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWD VWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 7 14:18:57 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 12:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WTD: AT&T 6300 Personal Computer mother bd dip switch map In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001181612.02eeafe8@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <20061007191857.99435.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Bill, I don't see any reason why that 25 pin connection couldn't be adapted to work with say an early Multisync. I posted something on vintage-computer.com a good while back, which IIRC was in effect a pinout of that connector. In reading Nuts and Volts over the years that particular PC (and it's weird video connector) came up at least twice, indicating perhaps it was popular amongst hams and such. As a possible resource, look at some of the ham type magazines at Barnes and Noble or wherever for hints to where you could post help for info. I imagine it's been done. And o yes there's also the web. Duh! I recently joined one ham type forum looking for different info, but can't remember the url. A google search should pinpoint these places of discussion. I could probably be of a bit more help. I intended to build such an adapter myself, but never got around to it, and I know a thing or two about it. I'll try to post something additional if I can dig something up. --- "B. Degnan" wrote: > Hi - I am attempting to install a CGA card onto a > AT&T 6300 Personal > Computer. It currently has only a 25-pin CRT port > for a terminal dumb > terminal (w/o keyboard). I need the dip switch map > so I can set for the > CGA monitor. The 6300 has a 8086 processor, and > it's an OEM system from > Olivetti. I assume that the user's guide for the > Olivetti 8086 PC would > due equally as well. > Thanks. > Bill D > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 7 14:28:25 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 12:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: <200610011127570969.2F14B60C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20061007192825.2454.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> regarding the dearth of information about some machines, I guess it just happens. No they didn't make significant inroads into the mainstream pc market, probably the biggest reason. Out of site out of mind. I'm about to embark on a journey to a far off land (Lake George, NY) to pick up a Canon AS-100. And a pristine example of one I'm told, repleat with all the goodies, ruggedized shipping carton to boot. The man used to be a rep for Canon, and held onto it all these years. Right. Point being, whoever heard of it or even cares? I myself wasn't aware of it's existence until less then 1 year ago. Yet, IMHO it's one of, if not the, grooviest craziest PeeCees out there. It's different, I'm sure as most people would agree. And probably 20 or 30 of them left on the planet (just a guess). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 7 14:42:48 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 12:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061007194248.55028.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard wrote: > > In article > <001301c6e4be$947d8110$6800a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, > "Jay West" writes: > > > [...] I did note that the seller had > > more of the proprietary CRT's and dual din cables > if those are of interest. > > Weird WANG stuff seems to be fairly rare; I'd pick > up anything the guy > is willing to give you. You have a unit from the PC > clone era; stuff > from the pre-PC era is even rarer IMO. Also, there was a unit on casters, like a modern server type case but fatter. Don't know anything about it, possible a z80 or something. It had pre-date the unit currently lol being discussed. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 7 14:45:31 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 12:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: <200609301917.09631.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20061007194531.33940.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> interested in anything that has to do with making this thing closer to a pc. I do have one of this type of Wang on hold. But hardware like that is of particular interest to me, if available. --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > On Saturday 30 September 2006 03:40 pm, Jay West > wrote: > > I took more pictures of the unit after removing > the chassis. They can be > > found at: > > > > http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/wang > > > > The cpu main board is definitely the large > L-shaped one that Roy Tellason > > mentioned. Just eyeballing it, but what kind of > backplane connectors are > > those? They look larger than ISA connectors and > appear to be 86 pin. > > Speaking of which, I probably still have the > backplane left and maybe some > slot covers and that drive mounting plate that I > mentioned in an earlier post > left over from that unit I had here. Maybe. I'll > have to look, if anyone's > interested. > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most > unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a > critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, > "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a > society ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Oct 7 14:48:13 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2006 14:48:13 -0500 Subject: WTD: AT&T 6300 Personal Computer mother bd dip switch map In-Reply-To: <20061007191857.99435.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061007191857.99435.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4528047D.9000301@oldskool.org> Chris M wrote: > I don't see any reason why that 25 pin connection > couldn't be adapted to work with say an early > Multisync. ...except that, in my experience, finding old Multisyncs are just as difficult as finding the original AT&T PC 6300 monitors that go with the machine. Both have similar frequency on ebay, anyway :) > a good while back, which IIRC was in effect a pinout > of that connector. In reading Nuts and Volts over the > years that particular PC (and it's weird video > connector) came up at least twice, indicating perhaps > it was popular amongst hams and such. It was offered to AT&T and Bell Labs employees at a very nice discount (almost half) so that's how I got one (father was AT&T employee) and that's how I saw a LOT of them at garage sales 5-10 years ago (I live in Naperville, home of one of the Lucent campuses). I think it's not entirely coincidence that a lot of HAMs are/were Bell Labs employees... I'm currently a Lucent employee, and I see AT&T 6386s by the trash heap about twice a year (386sx-16 machines, with the same AT&T 640x400 graphics modes, and also VGA). Some quick google and usenet searches shows the following very useful tidbits: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.ibm.pc/msg/085b7157cd54e203?dmode=source&hl=en http://www.electrocution.com/computing/postcodes/olivetti.asp#M24 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.att/msg/20371ba07623d7da?dmode=source&hl=en http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware/msg/a2c678e836b1f7a1?dmode=source&hl=en http://groups.google.com/group/net.micro.pc/msg/35809a1c9856be26?dmode=source&hl=en http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.video/msg/81abf3496a902a00?dmode=source&hl=en http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.att/msg/41bf0d39f4314f34?dmode=source&hl=en Lots of good info there. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Oct 7 15:03:07 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2006 16:03:07 -0400 Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: <20061007194531.33940.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061007194531.33940.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200610071603.07754.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 07 October 2006 03:45 pm, Chris M wrote: > interested in anything that has to do with making this thing closer to a pc. > I do have one of this type of Wang on hold. But hardware like that is of > particular interest to me, if available. > --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: <...> > > Speaking of which, I probably still have the backplane left and maybe > > some slot covers and that drive mounting plate that I mentioned in an > > earlier post left over from that unit I had here. Maybe. I'll have to > > look, if anyone's interested. Well, if I can find any of the hardware bits you're welcome to them. The boards themselves and the power supply are long gone, scrapped out some time ago, though if you need some particular part I may have it on hand still. Feel free to contact me offlist if there's interest. The only thing I remember about that machine that would make it closer to a pc is there was a board that plugged into it, I don't recall if that's where the monitor ended up getting connected instead of the stock setup, but then it's been a while -- I first encountered those machines in 1985, and for a few years after that. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pechter at gmail.com Sat Oct 7 17:00:13 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 18:00:13 -0400 Subject: information about the PDP-11/68 (also for PDP-11 FAQ: The Never 11's) In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488003@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488003@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: I believe the 11/68 was known as the Bluefin and was cancelled fairly early on before it was out of prototype. I think Ontario Hydro was the place that got the 11/74's. I never heard of AT&T having them. My wife was in AT&T, Bell Labs and Bellcore and she never heard of one of them there. The last of the 11/74 KB11-CM cpus were used internal at DEC when they had to ship a ton of refurb 11/70's to AT&T. (they were out of production and wouldn't meet the FCC regs... so DEC called in a bunch of their 11/70 systems from Software Development and Field Service and shipped the newer cpu's from the 11/74 project to them as a replacement. We got one at DEC Princeton around 83 or so... Just different enough to require separate not-too-available spares. They were used for a short time with RSTS/E until the internal stuff moved to VAX/VMS. There also was a system called Unicorn (which I think was another extended 11 prototype which was the development of the VAX SBI bus and MA780 memory -- later used in the VAX but built before that. Bill On 10/6/06, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > Hi all, > > last week I had 2 visitors from HP Storage Systems in my museum. > They both started with DIGITAL back in 1981, and love the old > systems. They have visited me before :-) > While in my little museum they saw the H960 rack with the console > of the PDP-11/60 on a 10.5" filler panel, and said something about > a 'nice mock-up'. > Ahh, I said, that is *not* a mock-up, but a real operational 11/60, > but I did not have the space for the low-boy corporate cabinet, so > I built the complete 11/60 in this H960 rack. > To prove it, I switched on the system :-) You can read the story > of the 11/60 on my website (PDP-11/60 folder, "11/60 in H960 rack"). > > Anyway, one tech told me that there was also a PDP-11/68 (no typo)! > The 11/68 was just like the famous 11/74, he told. > DIGITAL delivered four 11/74 to customers, but called those > machines back. 3 Customers obeyed, but one (AT&T) said "forget it", > and never returned the 11/74 to DIGITAL. > The tech also told that the 11/68 was cancelled because it would > out-perform the other new introduced machine (VAX-11/780, et al). > > I found a very small bit of information in the PDP-11 FAQ, in the > section "The Never 11's" ... > > Don North added the following *first hand* information: > > > > My recollection of the 11/68 was that it was a follow on to the 11/60, > intended to remedy the shortcomings (18b vs 22b mode) and increase > performance to beyond 11/70 level (ie, be an 11/70 replacement). It > was staffed by mostly the key designers from the 11/60 project. IIRC > technology was to be the same gatearrays (400 cell TI ISTL?) that were > ultimately used in the VAX Comet aka 11/750. > > At this time I had moved from 11/60 diagnostics to 11/74 CISP > microcode. Most of the 11/68 (then known as 11/6X) development > was in the next aisle over in the facility in Tewksbury MA. > > Anyway, I don't think the 11/68 project was all the widely known. > It never got past the paper design stage before it was canceled. > Most of the design team ended up leaving DEC shortly after to join > Three Rivers (aka PERQ) in establishing a design center in Massachusetts > (Three Rivers was located in Pittsburgh near CMU and they had trouble > attracting people to come there). I even went there for an interview > but declined the job offer. Good thing; the Mass design center lasted > about 9mos or so before folding. Seems the CTO/Founder of Three Rivers > just could not 'let go' of the desire/need to make EVERY technical > decision for the company. Having a remote design center of course was > then impossible. All the ex-DEC/PERQ guys then went on to form a startup > (Mosaic Technologies) which built a graphical workstation using the > newly announced National NS32032 VAX-like CPU. They had a booth at > SIGGRAPH 80 or 81 IIRC but then shortly ran out of money, and later > folded. > > > > Perhaps, this is info to be added to "The Never 11's" section ? > > - Henk, PA8PDP. > > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the > addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or > otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. > If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for > delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified > that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is > strictly prohibited. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender > immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. > Thank you for your cooperation. > > > > From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Oct 7 16:40:52 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2006 22:40:52 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45281EE4.9060701@gjcp.net> listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: >> DEC VT510 dumb terminal - 2 off >> DEC BA356 disk array - full of 4.3GB and 9.1GB drives. Has a >> personality module fitted, but I couldn't tell you what kind it is >> Other dumb terminals - there are about 20 of various kinds, including >> a Lear-Siegler ADM-11 which is retro-tastic > > No-one for any of this yet If someone can get a couple of terminals to go north-ish I could pick them up. I'm particularly after an ADM-3a especially if it's got the board that emulates a Tek 4016 storage tube display. I had one ages ago that I donated to the then owner of the PDP11 I have now, but it never came back... Gordon. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 7 17:47:19 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 18:47:19 -0400 Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: <20061007194248.55028.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061007194248.55028.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5a78fbea29e072983795c2f8b13cab83@neurotica.com> On Oct 7, 2006, at 3:42 PM, Chris M wrote: >> Weird WANG stuff seems to be fairly rare; I'd pick >> up anything the guy >> is willing to give you. You have a unit from the PC >> clone era; stuff >> from the pre-PC era is even rarer IMO. > > Also, there was a unit on casters, like a modern > server type case but fatter. Don't know anything about > it, possible a z80 or something. It had pre-date the > unit currently lol being discussed. Wang made a number of physically large Z80-based multiuser (no joke!) dedicated word processing systems. They actually worked quite well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Oct 8 00:17:34 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2006 22:17:34 -0700 Subject: Digital Systems Corporation Message-ID: <452889EE.2040702@msm.umr.edu> I am moving stuff out of my warehouse to storage, and am finding all sorts of nifty toys. One is a rom from a pretty old mini or mainframe, which is badged Digital Systems Corporation. It is "alterable" much like I understand the 360/20's were with boards that were used to program sense arrays, and could be altered in the field to change the firmware. As I mention in the web page, I have little information on it, and retrieved it as a close friend was downsizeing his collection of stuff many years ago. I don't know that he obtained it from a working machine, but we both agreed that a packrat like me would be better suited for it than he was, as he wanted to just have less stuff. I was very fortunate to know a few that were downsizeing to me rather than the land fill (and am working with one now). Anyway, maybe someone will have some comment on the company name or logo. I apologize for the current photos, I will try to scan or get better resolution photos of the label and post it, or follow up this on the list. I get nothing on any site that is of any use, as the three words that the company chose for itself may as well be "smith" "jones" or any word with millions or billions of hits, and nothing recent other than companies in Japan and Costa Rica (both unlikely to be useful) Jim http://jwstephens.com/rom/page_01.htm From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Oct 8 00:50:59 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 22:50:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Digital Systems Corporation In-Reply-To: <452889EE.2040702@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20061008055059.5766.qmail@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > One is a rom from a pretty old mini or mainframe, > which is badged > Digital Systems > Corporation. Are you shure this isn't from Digital *Scientific* Corporation? That's what it looks like to me in the photos. This appears to be the control store for a DSC Meta IV. See: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/digitalScientific/ --Bill From ceby2 at csc.com Sun Oct 8 05:36:57 2006 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 11:36:57 +0100 Subject: === IBM s/36 model 5363 === In-Reply-To: <200610071700.k97H02KB031445@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Frederic -- The little 'x' basically says 'bad input'. The console won't take any further input until you hit the reset key. It doesn't not like the data you're giving it either because the data is corrupt, or because it's inappropriate. Sorry if this amounts to telling you how to suck eggs. Data corruption can result from using the wrong type of keyboard -- when you say you have three keyboards, what keyboard are we talking about. Most 3197 terminals used an AT style keyboard connector. I'm not sure whether they are really compatible with all AT style keyboards, and I'm pretty sure they don't support PS/2 style with the adapter. I'm sure someone on this list can confirm or deny that. But you best bet is the 122 key 5250 style keyboard. Again, sorry if this is telling you how to suck eggs. Of course you could also have a faulty cable or the workstation controller may have a bad port. Anything's possible on a system this age. I have a tester somewhere in transit. If it comes down to it, I may be able to arrange the loan of that. I'd like to be more help, but my 5363 along with the rest of the S/36 gear is sitting on the quay-side in Thamesport (I've been moving house). I'm definitely stuck when it comes to helping you with the media. I have the 8" variety, but that wouldn't be compatible even if I could find a way of transferring it to 5.25". If you find a source of th 5.25", I have would certainly be interested in procuring a copy, too. I've wanted to rebuild both my 5363 and 5364 for sometime, but lacked the media to get on with the job. Good luck, Colin Eby -- ceby2 at csc.com CSC - EMEA Northern Region - C&SI -Technology Architect --------------------------- **This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose.** --------------------------- From Gary at realtimecomp.com Sun Oct 8 14:58:54 2006 From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick) Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 12:58:54 -0700 Subject: WANG micro? found In-Reply-To: <000001c6ea44$ec263340$0402a8c0@RealTime.local> Message-ID: <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A69705A175@server1.RealTime.local> Hey, If you view his other auctions, he has a string drive, and 25 carts with no bids. Closes 10/14/06 > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Chris M > Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 12:15 PM > To: Gary > Subject: Re: WANG micro? found > > there were a couple of big Wangs back in the day. Is > anyone out there knowledgeable of the different early > Wangs machines. Details of such have eluded me to > date. There is something on Ebay right now (closing > fast), but this isn't as old as anything here that's > being talked about, but still of interest. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Wang-Office-Assistant-WOA-40-Computer_ > W0QQitemZ290034430165QQihZ019QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWD > VWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Oct 8 16:03:39 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2006 22:03:39 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/10/06 01:10, "listmailgoeshere at gmail.com" wrote: > Also, a broken VT220. Isn't there some thing about not being a proper > geek until you've owned a broken VT220? ;) I've just unearthed a VT220 underneath some bedding, I wonder if it's broken? Heh..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From javickers at solutionengineers.com Sun Oct 8 16:24:45 2006 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 22:24:45 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in this job lot (West Yorkshire, UK)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <032b01c6eb20$3f94e040$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Well, I just finished unpacking what I took today; here is the roster - everything is up for grabs by anyone who wants it; stuff which doesn't get bagsied fairly soon (say, 1 month) will be ebayed or landfilled, depending on what it is. The list: TERMINALS --------- 23x "Liberty" terminals, all with significant yellowing (browning, actually) of the cases. 1 has broken tilt/swivel base. 4x DEC VT510 terminals, 1 with a rather ominous "live electricity on exposed metalwork" warning sticker 2x FALCO terminals 1x FACIT terminal 1x WYSE-55 terminal There are many keyboards, in a variety of states of repair, I will try to match make/model (esp. for the Falcos, which have a non-standard connector). Some (several) are missing various keys, hopefully there are significantly more keyboards than terminals, so most should be usable. MISC/OTHER ---------- 3x 3.5" large disk boxes 1x 3.5" small disk box 1x 7-CD drive thingy, loaded with 7 SCSI CDROMs. 1x "project box" (used to house a DAT tape drive) Nothing's been tested, nor will it be anytime soon (sorry). I think that's all. My brain hurts now, so I'm going to soothe it with a swift half. Cheers! Ade. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.13.1/466 - Release Date: 07/10/2006 From tosteve at gmail.com Sun Oct 8 19:01:07 2006 From: tosteve at gmail.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 17:01:07 -0700 Subject: Wanted: GRiD Compass 1101 info Message-ID: <2e4ce2290610081701l16681f87x69e94a2339afd698@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I have a GRiD Compass 1101, but haven't been able to determine how fast the system actually runs. Many sites say 16MHz, but I don't think the Intel 8086 ran that fast in 1982 - overclocked? The Motherboard only has an 8MHz crystal, so... If anyone has a manual, it may say. Thanks- Steve. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 8 19:25:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2006 17:25:25 -0700 Subject: Wanted: GRiD Compass 1101 info In-Reply-To: <2e4ce2290610081701l16681f87x69e94a2339afd698@mail.gmail.com> References: <2e4ce2290610081701l16681f87x69e94a2339afd698@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200610081725250163.546863FB@10.0.0.252> On 10/8/2006 at 5:01 PM steven stengel wrote: >I have a GRiD Compass 1101, but haven't been able to determine how fast the >system actually runs. >Many sites say 16MHz, but I don't think the Intel 8086 ran that fast in >1982- overclocked? I've got a 1040 and it's 8 MHz, so I doubt yours is any faster. I also have the Grid-peculiar MS-DOS 3.3 for it, if you need it. BTW, I dropped a NEC V30 in mine to replace the 8086. Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Sun Oct 8 20:10:59 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 21:10:59 -0400 Subject: Wanted: GRiD Compass 1101 info In-Reply-To: <200610081725250163.546863FB@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <000601c6eb3f$c890aef0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Mine only has the manual called Management Tools Reference. Nothing in there about hardware speeds. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 8:25 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Wanted: GRiD Compass 1101 info On 10/8/2006 at 5:01 PM steven stengel wrote: >I have a GRiD Compass 1101, but haven't been able to determine how fast the >system actually runs. >Many sites say 16MHz, but I don't think the Intel 8086 ran that fast in >1982- overclocked? I've got a 1040 and it's 8 MHz, so I doubt yours is any faster. I also have the Grid-peculiar MS-DOS 3.3 for it, if you need it. BTW, I dropped a NEC V30 in mine to replace the 8086. Cheers, Chuck From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Oct 8 20:31:04 2006 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2006 21:31:04 -0400 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 monitors - got one now In-Reply-To: <200610081700.k98H0gff042167@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20061008212802.0125a280@mail.degnanco.net> > >Chris M wrote: > > I don't see any reason why that 25 pin connection > > couldn't be adapted to work with say an early > > Multisync. > >...except that, in my experience, finding old Multisyncs are just as >difficult as finding the original AT&T PC 6300 monitors that go with the >machine. Both have similar frequency on ebay, anyway :) Fortunately there was PC 6300 monitor for sale at our club (marchclub.org) swap meet (with three 6300's) this weekend...Problem solved!...it pays to advertise. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Oct 8 21:00:18 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2006 19:00:18 -0700 Subject: Digital Systems Corporation In-Reply-To: <20061008055059.5766.qmail@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20061008055059.5766.qmail@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4529AD32.9@msm.umr.edu> William Maddox wrote: >>One is a rom from a pretty old mini or mainframe, >>which is badged >>Digital Systems >>Corporation. >> >> > >Are you shure this isn't from Digital *Scientific* >Corporation? > I went back and checked, and you are correct. Also I saw that it said San Diego, Ca. I'll take a look at the documents you referenced and see what this might be. I moved two more skids of stuff today. Storage (climate controlled) is up to 10' x 10' x 8' full of tapes, tape drives, and other heat sensitive stuff. so far there is not a lot of the other stuff I am going to save and will sell to scrappers here. (and let Billy take a look, as promised). But a lot of what is being dumped is stuff that should not have been saved anyway. Jim From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Oct 8 21:49:07 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2006 22:49:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Other LX woes Message-ID: <200610090255.WAA05228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > In the past, I've run my LX [...] Speaking of LXen.... I've got two LXen. The LX has a cgsix on the motherboard, and if you "cd" to it and do "words" you'll see - or at least I do for each of mine - that it has resolution-changing words supporting, among others, 1280x1024. But when I setenv output-device to /sbus/cgsix at 3,0:r1280x1024x67 (or whatever it is), the console appears to start fine but wedges as soon as it tries to scroll. However, my two machines wedge in different ways. (One just hangs, still displaying the pre-scroll display; on the other, the video glitches as if it were changing scan frequencies and hangs displaying either black screen or no video, I'm not sure which.) Given this, I rather wonder if I just have two differently busted framebuffers or if this is just how LXes work (or more accurately, fail). So, if anyone has an LX, a monitor capable of 1280x1024, and some way to recover (unplug the keyboard and use serial console, or an OS if you have it set to auto-boot, to change output-device back), I wonder if you could try it and see if yours weird out when they try to scroll at 1280x1024? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bear at typewritten.org Mon Oct 9 02:12:08 2006 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 00:12:08 -0700 Subject: Other LX woes In-Reply-To: <200610090255.WAA05228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200610090255.WAA05228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Oct 8, 2006, at 7:49 PM, der Mouse wrote: > I've got two LXen. The LX has a cgsix on the motherboard, and if you > "cd" to it and do "words" you'll see - or at least I do for each of > mine - that it has resolution-changing words supporting, among others, > 1280x1024. Except that many pixels won't fit in 1 MB of VRAM (not with an 8-bit pixel depth anyway). You'll need the optional VSIMM to actually run at that resolution. I'll bet a shiny penny that installing one cures your LX crashing. ok bear From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Oct 9 03:20:35 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 04:20:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Other LX woes In-Reply-To: References: <200610090255.WAA05228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200610090825.EAA16826@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I've got two LXen. The LX has a cgsix on the motherboard, and if >> you "cd" to it and do "words" you'll see - or at least I do for each >> of mine - that it has resolution-changing words supporting, among >> others, 1280x1024. > Except that many pixels won't fit in 1 MB of VRAM (not with an 8-bit > pixel depth anyway). You'll need the optional VSIMM to actually run > at that resolution. I'll bet a shiny penny that installing one cures > your LX crashing. (No bet, friend. :) So that's what that socket is for! I suppose I was too optimistic assuming that the framebuffer wouldn't advertise a resolution it isn't prepared to handle. (I should have known better from the way a 4M cg14 acts on the SS20...though that doesn't wedge; it just multi-displays the video RAM.) I'll have to ring up MemoryX and get myself one. Or perhaps two, one for each LX, to save shipping. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bqt at softjar.se Mon Oct 9 06:54:35 2006 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 13:54:35 +0200 Subject: information about the PDP-11/68 (also for PDP-11 FAQ: The Never 11's) In-Reply-To: <200610081700.k98H03LY042132@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200610081700.k98H03LY042132@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <452A387B.5040004@softjar.se> On 9 Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2006 18:00:13 -0400 "Bill Pechter" wrote: > I believe the 11/68 was known as the Bluefin and was cancelled fairly > early on before it was out of prototype. I think Ontario Hydro was the > place that got the 11/74's. I never heard of AT&T having them. My wife > was in AT&T, Bell Labs and Bellcore and she never heard of one of them > there. This is urban myth appearantly. No 11/74 systems were left at customers at the end of the field tests. The most common myth is that Ontario Hydro whould have kept one, but sources there have denied it. Another myth about Ontario that I've read were about when DEC tried to convince them to change their 11/70 systems (or if it was disks) because the money they would save from lower power consuption of another system, which were replied to with a "maybe you didn't hear where I come from...". I think that actually may have been a DECUS Q&A session... And that one might be true. I don't know... Anyhow, back to the 11/74 systems... No, I remember (and probably still have the mail somewhere) that persons within Ontario denied that they kept any 11/74 systems. Also, people within DEC have firmly stated that all 11/74 systems *were* returned. > The last of the 11/74 KB11-CM cpus were used internal at DEC when they > had to ship a ton of refurb 11/70's to AT&T. (they were out of > production and wouldn't meet the FCC regs... so DEC called in a bunch > of their 11/70 systems from Software Development and Field Service and > shipped the newer cpu's from the 11/74 project to them as a > replacement. Well, it is true that DEC shipped KB11-CM cards to customers to use in 11/70 systems, but that wasn't the last of it. DEC still had/have working 11/74 systems in house, and in the early 90s they did a corporate wide search for 11/74 components, I believe, to keep their systems running. (Memory a bit hazy now...) When DEC disbanded the PDP-11 OS groups, the RSX team's 11/74 (CASTOR::) were moved to Colorado Springs. The DECnet group's 11/74 (just 2 cpus, POLLUX::) were also there, and FS took over the system. Well, actually Mentec took over the system, and kept it running for another number of years. As far as I know, the system they have still exist, but last I heard they had some hardware problem with the machine, so it wasn't functional. This was maybe four years ago. Also, RSX development have finally moved off the 11/74 onto something faster. But until recent emulators on really fast hardware, the 11/74 was still the best workhorse for the development system. Which is why RSX have a very nice and functional MP implementation. :) However, appearantly the physical machine stayed inside DEC, then Compaq, and I would expect currently HP. And it sounds like there is little chance of the machine ever leaving the premises. If it is disbanded, it's destined for the scrap heap. Or atleast that's what I've been told. If someone ever manage to get it out of there, I would love to help it back to running order. > We got one at DEC Princeton around 83 or so... Just different enough > to require separate not-too-available spares. They were used for a > short time with RSTS/E until the internal stuff moved to VAX/VMS. I would think that most components would be the same as the 11/70. Looking at the module list, only a few modules differ. Analysing it, the changes would be in the memory bus interface (that means both cache modules and memory box bus interface). Second, the MMU and ASRB microcode is changed. But I believe that's it. > There also was a system called Unicorn (which I think was another > extended 11 prototype which was the development of the VAX SBI bus and > MA780 memory -- later used in the VAX but built before that. That would be interesting to learn anything more about. Of course I assume you know that the PDP-11/70 and VAX-11/750 use the same memory bus, and same memory cards (with a few restrictions). Johnny From drb at msu.edu Mon Oct 9 14:41:51 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 15:41:51 -0400 Subject: UREP Message-ID: <200610091941.k99JfpXp011931@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Anyone know if the old UREP (Unix RSCS Emulation Package) is available anywhere any more? De From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Oct 9 15:50:17 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 15:50:17 -0500 Subject: AT&T PC 6300 monitors - got one now In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20061008212802.0125a280@mail.degnanco.net> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061008212802.0125a280@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <452AB609.3090907@oldskool.org> B. Degnan wrote: > > Fortunately there was PC 6300 monitor for sale at our club > (marchclub.org) swap meet (with three 6300's) this weekend...Problem > solved!...it pays to advertise. Wow, that was a stroke of luck! Do try to find games and programs that support the 640x400 high-res mode ("The Colony" comes to mind)... it's neat seeing "CGA" in high-res. Back when I used mine a great deal, I would download macpaint pictures and view them at their correct resolution and aspect ratio... Also, AT&T GWBASIC supports 640x400 with SCREEN 100 if you want to poke around yourself. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jwest at ezwind.net Mon Oct 9 16:32:08 2006 From: jwest at ezwind.net (Jay West) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 16:32:08 -0500 Subject: 11/34 rails sought Message-ID: <000801c6ebea$64d19810$6700a8c0@BILLING> My last PDP11 restoration to do yet is a 11/34 in an H960 cabinet (I'm skipping the /45 for now, jumping over it to maintain sanity and until help strikes me upside the head). I believe the only thing I'm missing to start the /34 project is a set of the "tip up and lock" rails for the /34 cpu itself. Anyone have a set they'd like to trade or sell? I have to get back to classic computing restoration or the basement will continue to decrease in space instead of increase ;) Jay From evan at snarc.net Mon Oct 9 16:54:44 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 17:54:44 -0400 Subject: VCF 9 plans... Message-ID: <003a01c6ebed$881a4f80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I know this is a bit early, but I'm arriving for VCF 9 on Thursday, Nov. 2 if anyone's looking to hang out in the evening. Cell is 646-546-9999. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 9 17:10:56 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 17:10:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Emergency Chicagoland Commodore Convention 2006 pics Message-ID: <200610092210.k99MAujZ014149@keith.ezwind.net> Hi folks, Some cool pics of C64 equipment can be found here: http://lyonlabs.org/commodore/eccc-2006/eccc-2006.ht ml Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 9 17:39:22 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 15:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WTD: AT&T 6300 Personal Computer mother bd dip switch map In-Reply-To: <4528047D.9000301@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20061009223922.13061.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Leonard wrote: > ...except that, in my experience, finding old > Multisyncs are just as > difficult as finding the original AT&T PC 6300 > monitors that go with the > machine. Both have similar frequency on ebay, > anyway :) Besides multisyncs, you can use most any 400 line monitor of the day. Even go as far as to tie all 3 RGB inputs of a color monitor to monochrome video out and *hopefully* get a monochrome display. Yes they're all fairly scarce, but at least you're not locked into AT & T's offerings. I posted sometime ago asking would it be a bad idea to utilize an IBM 5151 type monitor (but NOT an actual 5151) for this type of signal. You'd have to tweak the horizontal hold control to stabilize the picture. The consensus was that it wasn't a bad idea. If dookies can't find their own Multisyncer, that's their problem LOL LOL LOL. I kept my original ;) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 9 17:51:23 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 15:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Needed: Tandy 2000 manuals In-Reply-To: <005801c6e35b$62f8f610$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <20061009225123.61152.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Otay I know I'm late in responding to some of this stuph, but here goes What pray tell are you attempting to create an emulator for Richard? I do have a copy of each, but I don't think I'm going to be lending them out anytime soon Took me a long time to get replacements for the originals I guess I tossed We can discuss this further off-list if you should so desire Why me. Lord why me LOL --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > All: > > > > I'm doing research for another potential > emulation project. Does > anyone have a pointer to an electronic copy of the > Tandy Model 2000 > Programmer's Reference Manual (260-5403) and the > Hardware Reference Manual > (260-5404)? Alternatively, if someone has hard > copies that I can make a copy > of, that'd work. > > > > Thanks a lot. > > > > Rich > > > > Rich Cini > > Collector of classic computers > > Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > > Web site: > > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > > Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ > > /***************************************************/ > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rcini at optonline.net Mon Oct 9 17:57:02 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 18:57:02 -0400 Subject: Needed: Tandy 2000 manuals In-Reply-To: <20061009225123.61152.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000201c6ebf6$3c3a3e50$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Chris: Thanks. I actually bought a complete set of manuals from this guy in Cleveland, including a set of boot disks. Being temporarily bored with some of my other projects, I thought I'd give it a go with a Tandy 2000 emulator using MESS. If that doesn't work, I think I have enough random info to build one from scratch. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 6:51 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Needed: Tandy 2000 manuals Otay I know I'm late in responding to some of this stuph, but here goes What pray tell are you attempting to create an emulator for Richard? I do have a copy of each, but I don't think I'm going to be lending them out anytime soon Took me a long time to get replacements for the originals I guess I tossed We can discuss this further off-list if you should so desire Why me. Lord why me LOL --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > All: > > > > I'm doing research for another potential > emulation project. Does > anyone have a pointer to an electronic copy of the > Tandy Model 2000 > Programmer's Reference Manual (260-5403) and the > Hardware Reference Manual > (260-5404)? Alternatively, if someone has hard > copies that I can make a copy > of, that'd work. > > > > Thanks a lot. > > > > Rich > > > > Rich Cini > > Collector of classic computers > > Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > > Web site: > > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > > Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ > > /***************************************************/ > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 9 18:06:06 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 16:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Needed: Tandy 2000 manuals In-Reply-To: <000201c6ebf6$3c3a3e50$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <20061009230606.64917.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Dude, bless your heart. But why a T2K emulator??? It's really just a botched up peecee lol. Phun to play with, but I ain't sure I'd devote that much time creating an emulator for one. To each his own though and don't let me discourage you. What would really be cool IMHO is a replacement for it's weird SMC CRT controllers and FDD data seperator. Whether concocted from discrete logic or an FPGA sort of thing. If you say you have the manuals, then I guess it's done. But if you should need anything, heck I'll scan them for you. I would say the primary source of info on the thing is USENET or of course Google groups. There's a few peeps on there that actually worked on it supposedly. There also the yahoo group, and I have to tell you there are LOADS of experts on there LOL LOL. I do have most of the original BIOS source code. A few errors. The dude I got it from was working on a primarily software "patch" for want of a better term to make it 100% peecee compatible. He never finished snifful. I'll pass on whatever you want from that stash, but I'm afraid it's not much more then that. Good luck! --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > Chris: > > Thanks. I actually bought a complete set of manuals > from this guy in > Cleveland, including a set of boot disks. Being > temporarily bored with some > of my other projects, I thought I'd give it a go > with a Tandy 2000 emulator > using MESS. If that doesn't work, I think I have > enough random info to build > one from scratch. > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > Web site: > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ > > /***************************************************/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Chris M > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 6:51 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Needed: Tandy 2000 manuals > > Otay > > I know I'm late in responding to some of this > stuph, > but here goes > > What pray tell are you attempting to create an > emulator for Richard? > > I do have a copy of each, but I don't think I'm > going > to be lending them out anytime soon > > Took me a long time to get replacements for the > originals I guess I tossed > > We can discuss this further off-list if you should > so > desire > > Why me. Lord why me LOL > > --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > > > All: > > > > > > > > I'm doing research for another > potential > > emulation project. Does > > anyone have a pointer to an electronic copy of the > > Tandy Model 2000 > > Programmer's Reference Manual (260-5403) and the > > Hardware Reference Manual > > (260-5404)? Alternatively, if someone has hard > > copies that I can make a copy > > of, that'd work. > > > > > > > > Thanks a lot. > > > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > > > Rich Cini > > > > Collector of classic computers > > > > Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > > > > Web site: > > > > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > > > > Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ > > > > > /***************************************************/ > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 9 18:27:06 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 16:27:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need docs for intel 80c186/80c188 evaluation board In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061009232706.51607.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- dwight elvey wrote: > Hi Chris > What are the letters after the 186 or 188 on your > chip. > Depending on the board, I have some AMD stuff that > might work > but it is tied into flash memory on the AMD board. > I also have a Forth that I implemented on a C186 > that might also > work. > Do remember that there are several versions of these > chips with > different registers for hardware configurations. The > suffex letters > are important to know which you have. > Dwight Hi Dwight, sorry for the delay. The thing isn't in front of me, but unless I'm mistaken, it's simply an 80c186. I know there were lots of others, like the 80c186eb and all. There's one socket that's empty, and this worries me. I guess I could contact the seller. I googled the subject, and the only things returned were classiccmp posts... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rcini at optonline.net Mon Oct 9 18:29:19 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 19:29:19 -0400 Subject: Needed: Tandy 2000 manuals In-Reply-To: <20061009230606.64917.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000301c6ebfa$be855bc0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Chris: This is an exercise in learning more than anything. I worked for Radio Shack in the late'80's when they used the T2K for the Store Operating System and I always thought it had great graphics. After reading the Technical Reference Manual I'm beginning to appreciate how oddly designed it was. When it was introduced in 1983 or 1984, PCs already existed for 2+ years so why, oh why, did they decide to ignore the "PC compatible" trend. They must have gotten the SMC chips on special because so far I haven't found anyone else who used them. The only stuff that works is programs which are either designed specifically for it or uses only MS-DOS system calls. BIOS source, bootstrap code or anything like that that you could provide would be greatly appreciated. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 7:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Needed: Tandy 2000 manuals Dude, bless your heart. But why a T2K emulator??? It's really just a botched up peecee lol. Phun to play with, but I ain't sure I'd devote that much time creating an emulator for one. To each his own though and don't let me discourage you. What would really be cool IMHO is a replacement for it's weird SMC CRT controllers and FDD data seperator. Whether concocted from discrete logic or an FPGA sort of thing. If you say you have the manuals, then I guess it's done. But if you should need anything, heck I'll scan them for you. I would say the primary source of info on the thing is USENET or of course Google groups. There's a few peeps on there that actually worked on it supposedly. There also the yahoo group, and I have to tell you there are LOADS of experts on there LOL LOL. I do have most of the original BIOS source code. A few errors. The dude I got it from was working on a primarily software "patch" for want of a better term to make it 100% peecee compatible. He never finished snifful. I'll pass on whatever you want from that stash, but I'm afraid it's not much more then that. Good luck! --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > Chris: > > Thanks. I actually bought a complete set of manuals > from this guy in > Cleveland, including a set of boot disks. Being > temporarily bored with some > of my other projects, I thought I'd give it a go > with a Tandy 2000 emulator > using MESS. If that doesn't work, I think I have > enough random info to build > one from scratch. > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > Web site: > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ > > /***************************************************/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Chris M > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 6:51 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Needed: Tandy 2000 manuals > > Otay > > I know I'm late in responding to some of this > stuph, > but here goes > > What pray tell are you attempting to create an > emulator for Richard? > > I do have a copy of each, but I don't think I'm > going > to be lending them out anytime soon > > Took me a long time to get replacements for the > originals I guess I tossed > > We can discuss this further off-list if you should > so > desire > > Why me. Lord why me LOL > > --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > > > All: > > > > > > > > I'm doing research for another > potential > > emulation project. Does > > anyone have a pointer to an electronic copy of the > > Tandy Model 2000 > > Programmer's Reference Manual (260-5403) and the > > Hardware Reference Manual > > (260-5404)? Alternatively, if someone has hard > > copies that I can make a copy > > of, that'd work. > > > > > > > > Thanks a lot. > > > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > > > Rich Cini > > > > Collector of classic computers > > > > Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > > > > Web site: > > > > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > > > > Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ > > > > > /***************************************************/ > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 9 18:41:07 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2006 16:41:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Needed: Tandy 2000 manuals In-Reply-To: <000301c6ebfa$be855bc0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <20061009234107.31104.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > Chris: > > This is an exercise in learning more than > anything. Alright then! This I can appreciate! Wooohooo > I worked for > Radio Shack in the late'80's when they used the T2K > for the Store Operating > System and I always thought it had great graphics. For it's time yes indeed. > After reading the Technical Reference Manual I'm > beginning to > appreciate how oddly designed it was. I've forgotten alot, but in reality there's alot of peecee in there. A mobo with a very high chip count, though granted floppy, video and parallel/serial stuph built in. It was said that when they ported XENIX to it, all of it's bugs started kicking. There were 40+ service center bulletins (read mods), as I'm sure you'd know if you worked there (again bless you ;). If you google "Jeff Hellige" you'll find his geocities site and IIRC you can download all the bulletins. If he's not on classiccmp already he should be dang. > When it was > introduced in 1983 or > 1984, PCs already existed for 2+ years so why, oh > why, did they decide to > ignore the "PC compatible" trend. It's been said that some did (and as you know some others did) for fear of litigation. Some of these outfits were big enough that they thought that improving on the original they'd shanghai the developing standard. That was my understanding. After all, they were kind of sort of IBM compatible already. Makes sense, no? > They must have > gotten the SMC chips on > special because so far I haven't found anyone else > who used them. The only > stuff that works is programs which are either > designed specifically for it > or uses only MS-DOS system calls. Right, "well behaved" programs that only talked to the hardware through DOS or BIOS calls should run. But as is always the case the vendor supplied API's or whatever you want to call them are too slow to be tolerated. Include the Commie 64 and the Macintosh in that category. >BIOS source, bootstrap code or anything like that > that you could > provide would be greatly appreciated. I'll make a point of digging them out. Don't hesitate to remind me if I take too long. I'll look over your work as time allows Richard, for curiosity's sake more then anything. You know that Lisa emulator probably needs some extra hands when you get through with this... ;) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 9 19:03:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 17:03:33 -0700 Subject: Needed: Tandy 2000 manuals In-Reply-To: <000301c6ebfa$be855bc0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <000301c6ebfa$be855bc0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <200610091703330989.597ABD9A@10.0.0.252> On 10/9/2006 at 7:29 PM Richard A. Cini wrote: > After reading the Technical Reference Manual I'm beginning to >appreciate how oddly designed it was. When it was introduced in 1983 or >1984, PCs already existed for 2+ years so why, oh why, did they decide to >ignore the "PC compatible" trend? Although it's hard to believe in retrospect, this was not at all uncommon. There were still a bunch of manufacturers out there who thought that they could "do better' than IBM at PC design. There was also a mistaken notion that all one had to do was to be MS-DOS compatible. If you think about it, how many systems around this time were truly "PC compatible"? How many had Microsoft BASIC in ROM? While you might have been able to boot PC-DOS, trying to run BASICA would result in failure. There were a few applications that relied on the BASIC ROMs being present. Didn't the Tandy 2000 use an 80186? IIRC, the 186 offered higher speeds and integrated peripherals--a reasonable choice for a personal computer. Heaven knows, they weren't the only one to make the 186 blunder. Although we remember some of the big players, such as AT&T and Tandy, there were many many others. How many folks, for example, have a Stearns PC in their collection? (8086, made in Minnesota). All had varying degrees of "PC Compatibility". If you wanted a PC compatible, you bought something made in Taiwan. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Oct 9 20:30:25 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2006 21:30:25 -0400 Subject: 11/34 rails sought In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 09 Oct 2006 16:32:08 CDT." <000801c6ebea$64d19810$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200610100130.k9A1UPgM021907@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: >My last PDP11 restoration to do yet is a 11/34 in an H960 cabinet (I'm >skipping the /45 for now, jumping over it to maintain sanity and until help >strikes me upside the head). I believe the only thing I'm missing to start >the /34 project is a set of the "tip up and lock" rails for the /34 cpu >itself. Anyone have a set they'd like to trade or sell? I have to get back >to classic computing restoration or the basement will continue to decrease >in space instead of increase ;) I'd like to find a set of these also... are they a standard part or a dec special? -brad From cheri-post at web.de Tue Oct 10 03:13:35 2006 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:13:35 +0200 Subject: Logos and websites Message-ID: <1531454223@web.de> Hey all, just a question: I'm working on a website which presents my collection of classic computers. On the left side, there will be a navigatio bar with the company names and the respective modes. I'd like to directly use the logos (images) of the brands in order to represent their names. Could I run into to difficulties doing that? E.g. a company asking me to remove it or otherwise being confrontated with law issues ? For those who run a website? What are your experiences? Thanks for any hints. Regards, Pierre _______________________________________________________________________ Viren-Scan f?r Ihren PC! Jetzt f?r jeden. Sofort, online und kostenlos. Gleich testen! http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222 From kelly at catcorner.org Tue Oct 10 04:26:44 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 05:26:44 -0400 Subject: NEC Multisync II manual Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30361A6@MEOW.catcorner.org> Does anyone have a scan of one available? Thanks, Kelly From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Oct 10 05:43:21 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 05:43:21 -0500 Subject: S-100 system available in Oregon Message-ID: <200610100935.k9A9ZOYj018394@hosting.monisys.ca> I received this request recently by email: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have and I'm tired of storing an old S-100 box, probably home-made in a formed and machined aluminum enclosure. The whole thing is a tank of impressive proportions and weight. I saved it from the trash years ago, as S-100 systems were common when I first started using computers (Osborne 1 era). Originally, it had 2 8" floppy drives. One of the drives is missing, although I have the door for it. Inside, there's a CPU/IO card, a 64 K DRAM card, an analog data acquisition card, and I don't remember what else. One of the cards says MicroByte. The front panel had a key switch, which is still there, but pulled back from the panel. I have no idea if this works, but at least the major parts appear to be on hand. Are you interested in this beast? Do you want pictures? I don't want any money other than the cost of getting it into better hands. I'm in Eugene, Oregon, by the way. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Too far/heavy/big for me to get it shipped here, however if there is someone on the list who would like to give it a home, please contact me and I'll connect the two of you. Regards. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From psand at mac.com Tue Oct 10 04:59:00 2006 From: psand at mac.com (Per Sandstrom) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 11:59:00 +0200 Subject: Sun-3/60 available in Calgary Message-ID: <452B6EE4.8020005@mac.com> I'm posting this for my friend Shane who isn't subscribed to this list. He'd like to find a good home for his Sun-3/60. The machine is available for pick-up (unless you pay shipping) in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. As far as I know, this 3/60 has 12MB RAM and a CG4 color framebuffer. It includes a color monitor, keyboard, optical mouse and the metal mousepad as well as an external 1GB SCSI disk (not the shoebox) loaded with SunOS 4.1. All cables included. In short, a very complete 3/60! The owner can be contacted directly at . Per From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Oct 10 05:52:55 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 12:52:55 +0200 Subject: how do I copy an RD54 completely? In-Reply-To: <000301c6e972$15a33980$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488010@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi Julian, thanks very much for the description. Along with some documentation, I hope to succeed :-) First, I will use the TK50 in the system to make a backup. I will take a separate TK50 tape for each backup command to prevent running out of tape during a backup ... After that, I will install the UC07 with the SCSI disk, and try the backup to that disk. I am a bit busy in the house to keep my wife glad, but I will certainly post the results. Do you have RSTS V10 (.01 IIRC)? If not, and my backup is succesfull, I can send you a CD-ROM copy, after I managed to copy the SCSI disk on my PC to a CD-ROM ... But that's for later :-) thanks, - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Julian Wolfe > Sent: vrijdag 6 oktober 2006 20:06 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: how do I copy an RD54 completely? > > Fairly complex topic, but lucky you - I have a very similar setup. > > Since you are using a UC07, which is the exact same > controller I use in my /23+ with RSTS, I know you can > partition the disk using the controller - MAKE SURE the disk > is hard partitioned by the controller to be below 2GB in > size, as RSTS/E does not like disk sizes larger than 2GB (you > will get the repeated, rather funny message "THE DISK IS TOO LARGE!") > > If you have another RD54, you can use SAVRES to image the > disk over to another RD54. If you want to replace the disk > with a SCSI device, install the UC07 and disk drive, and then > when the "Options " prompt comes up, type DSKINT. It > will ask you which disk, so put in the correct DUxx: > designator, we'll use DU1: in this example. Other than that, > you can pick the defaults for everything else up to > "Patterns? <3>". I'd let it do the 3 patterns to make sure > the disk is reliable, but if you don't want to wait hours for > the disk to initialize 3 times, you can put in '0' and 'Y' to > erase the disk. > > Now that you have the freshly formatted disk, you should be > returned to the DSKINT program, press Ctrl-Z. At the "Options > " prompt, type COPY. > It'll prompt you for a disk, enter your DUxx: designator > again for the SCSI device.It should then copy the correct > files for a bootable (but not useful) system to the new disk. > > Hit CTRL-Z again and go ahead and start the system. Log in > as 1,2 and hopefully you know the password, if you don't, at > the "Continue system startup " prompt, just say no and > then do a "SET PASSWORD [1,2]", then use "RUN $SHUTUP" to > reboot the system. > > >From that point, all you need to do is use BACKUP and RESTORE once > >logged in > to move your data to the new disk. If you've got a > 2gb > disk, you can DSKINT the other hard partition and run your > backup file to that, otherwise you need a magtape for this. > > What you do is enter "BACKUP DU0:[*,*]*.* DU2:BACKUP.BCK" > where DU0: would be the RD54 and DU1: would be the SCSI device. > > Then "RESTORE DU2:BACKUP.BCK DU1:" Go ahead and overwrite > everything that was laid down by the COPY. > > If you have any questions, feel free to contact me off list > or find me pretty much 24/7 in #ClassicCmp IRC on the > Freenode network. > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Oct 10 09:22:48 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 07:22:48 -0700 Subject: need docs for intel 80c186/80c188 evaluation board In-Reply-To: <20061009232706.51607.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >From: Chris M >--- dwight elvey wrote: > > > Hi Chris > > What are the letters after the 186 or 188 on your > > chip. > > Depending on the board, I have some AMD stuff that > > might work > > but it is tied into flash memory on the AMD board. > > I also have a Forth that I implemented on a C186 > > that might also > > work. > > Do remember that there are several versions of these > > chips with > > different registers for hardware configurations. The > > suffex letters > > are important to know which you have. > > Dwight > > Hi Dwight, sorry for the delay. The thing isn't in >front of me, but unless I'm mistaken, it's simply an >80c186. I know there were lots of others, like the >80c186eb and all. There's one socket that's empty, and >this worries me. I guess I could contact the seller. I >googled the subject, and the only things returned were >classiccmp posts... > Hi Chris If it is a 40 pin socket, it is most likely for a 80C187 math chip. I have a several boards that have this socket but only two 80c187's to go with them. These chips still hold premium pricing( ~100-200$ ). The code most likely didn't use the math chip. I've never fiddle with it but I assume it is 87 compatable. I guess one would have to go by package type. Each 80C186 had a slightly different fixed register structure and I/O mapping. If you had the eprom with it, you might try to save the main reset code. This will have the basic setup to get the memory and I/O configured correctly for that board. Once past the reset, just using 8086 code would work well( except know where things like the serial in and out was ). The 80C186 was basically 86 code with a couple enhanced instructions borrowed from the 286. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 10 10:56:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 08:56:13 -0700 Subject: S-100 system available in Oregon In-Reply-To: <200610100935.k9A9ZOYj018394@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200610100935.k9A9ZOYj018394@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200610100856130560.5CE2E890@10.0.0.252> I"m in Eugene, Dave. Drop me a line and I'll pick it up, though I haven't the faintest idea of what to do with it. Cheers, Chuck On 10/10/2006 at 5:43 AM Dave Dunfield wrote: >I received this request recently by email: >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------- >I have and I'm tired of storing an old S-100 box, probably home-made in a >formed and machined aluminum enclosure. The whole thing is a tank of >impressive proportions and weight. I saved it from the trash years ago, as >S-100 systems were common when I first started using computers (Osborne 1 >era). > >Originally, it had 2 8" floppy drives. One of the drives is missing, >although I have the door for it. > >Inside, there's a CPU/IO card, a 64 K DRAM card, an analog data acquisition >card, and I don't remember what else. One of the cards says MicroByte. >The >front panel had a key switch, which is still there, but pulled back from >the >panel. > >I have no idea if this works, but at least the major parts appear to be on >hand. > >Are you interested in this beast? Do you want pictures? I don't want any >money other than the cost of getting it into better hands. I'm in Eugene, >Oregon, by the way. >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------- > >Too far/heavy/big for me to get it shipped here, however if there is >someone >on the list who would like to give it a home, please contact me and I'll >connect >the two of you. > >Regards. >Dave > >-- >dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From javickers at solutionengineers.com Tue Oct 10 11:59:17 2006 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:59:17 +0100 Subject: OT: Soldering Message-ID: <005801c6ec8d$7edc0490$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Is it just me, or is it now impossible to solder properly with "lead free" solder and "lead free" flux? Is there a decent make of flux available (like you used to get in those little round metal tins, and is nicotine brown in colour), rather than that utterly useless white water-based stuff? Also, while I'm ranting, the white rubbish flux I bought (to try to get a recalcitrant wire soldered up) has more warnings than I've ever seen on any product except peanuts before. Is it my imagination, or is it actually more dangerous than the stuff it's replaced? Grrr Adrian Vickers. (PS: This has nothing to do with terminals - I was fabricating a new battery pack for an Epson PX-8, due to the terminal expiration of the original) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.13.1/469 - Release Date: 09/10/2006 From lyosnorezel at yahoo.com Tue Oct 10 12:37:04 2006 From: lyosnorezel at yahoo.com (Lyos Norezel) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 10:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: group buy for homebrew CPUs? In-Reply-To: <200608120414.AAA14543@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20061010173704.26017.qmail@web55314.mail.re4.yahoo.com> I just had a thought for ya'll (and I'm sorry for butting in like this)... but... ya'll are talking about using SMT chips to create homebrew CPU's. Many of the logic chips ye have been using do, indeed, come in SMT, SOIC type packages correct? Well... using ExpressPCB (the CAD program) I quickly rigged up a SOIC-8 (8 pin SOIC) to a 32 pin DIP package (4 SOIC-8 package on one chip). Below are some links. Anyway... using that kind of setup ya'll could make a PCB that fits into whatever package the original came in. Thus using the old computer with a brand new homebrew CPU. The ExpressPCB miniboard service will run ye 50-some bucks for a quantity of 3 boards (3 boards required)... but ye can fit 21 32 pin dip packages on those boards (7 per board). Thus making them easily profitable if ye should choose to sell them. BTW... when I rigged these pieces up I used a pin to pin connection. If I had the specs for the chips ya'll want to use... the I can easily rig up a similar adapter and (using a 4 layer PCB) connect all GND and VCC/VDD pins together... thus reducing the pin count and allowing more components to fit on the same board. Those who would like to see a certain chip(s) type put on a through-hole adapter... you are welcome to send me an email with the following info: Name: Email: Chip Package: Adapter Package: # of Layers (2 or 4): and attach PDF datasheets on all components if at all possible. Note: I will only draw the PCB... you are on your own ordering the boards. Note2: These boards will require cutting to separate the individual pieces. Note3: The '.zip' file I link to contains the '.pcb' drawing that is compatible with ExpressPCB Links: www.geocities.com/lyosnorezel/soicx4todip.bmp www.geocities.com/lyosnorezel/soicx4todip.jpg www.geocities.com/lyosnorezel/SOICx4toDIP.zip Good Luck! Lyos Gemini Norezel --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2?/min or less. From evan at snarc.net Tue Oct 10 14:41:13 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:41:13 -0400 Subject: Room sharing -- RE: VCF 9 plans... In-Reply-To: <003a01c6ebed$881a4f80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <001601c6eca4$0cdd28d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I have a reservation at the show hotel (Marriott Residence Inn) for Fri./Sat./Sun. nights. It's $99 each night. I'd like to share it with someone to save money. Apparently there's a queen bed and a sofa bed, but I volunteer to take the sofa ... LOL saving $$ is that important to me. -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 5:55 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: VCF 9 plans... I know this is a bit early, but I'm arriving for VCF 9 on Thursday, Nov. 2 if anyone's looking to hang out in the evening. Cell is 646-546-9999. From toby at russellsharpe.com Tue Oct 10 15:00:03 2006 From: toby at russellsharpe.com (Tobias Russell) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 21:00:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: RD53s and RD54s Message-ID: <40216.217.151.109.154.1160510403.squirrel@webmail.russellsharpe.com> Hi, I've decided after many years of accumulating PDP-11s that the time has come to restore a few of them to operational condition. I've decided to start with some QBUS machines as they give me the best chance of a warm fuzzy feeling of success. The first thing I've decided to do was to retrieve all of my RD series harddisks and establish which ones are still operational. I've initially started with 4 RD53s and 4 RD54s which I've connected upto an 11/73 and used XXDP to format. All RD54s have formatted perfectly, confirming their reputation for reliability. However none of the RD53s would format, which I guess also backs up their reputation. I had hoped at least a few of the RD53s would have still been usable (I have about 6 more I've not tested yet). Does anyone have a RD53 still in working condition? Is there any point in keeping the duff drives or should I consign them to the skip? Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Tue Oct 10 15:13:41 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:13:41 -0500 Subject: RD53s and RD54s In-Reply-To: <40216.217.151.109.154.1160510403.squirrel@webmail.russellsharpe.com> Message-ID: <000a01c6eca8$95006610$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> RD53s are always good for a discus throw. Other than that, worthless. RD54s are much more reliable. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tobias Russell > Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 3:00 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RD53s and RD54s > > Hi, > > I've decided after many years of accumulating PDP-11s that > the time has come to restore a few of them to operational > condition. I've decided to start with some QBUS machines as > they give me the best chance of a warm fuzzy feeling of success. > > The first thing I've decided to do was to retrieve all of my > RD series harddisks and establish which ones are still > operational. I've initially started with 4 RD53s and 4 RD54s > which I've connected upto an 11/73 and used XXDP to format. > > All RD54s have formatted perfectly, confirming their > reputation for reliability. However none of the RD53s would > format, which I guess also backs up their reputation. I had > hoped at least a few of the RD53s would have still been > usable (I have about 6 more I've not tested yet). > > Does anyone have a RD53 still in working condition? Is there > any point in keeping the duff drives or should I consign them > to the skip? > > Toby > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous > content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. > > From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Oct 10 15:12:35 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 21:12:35 +0100 Subject: RD53s and RD54s References: <40216.217.151.109.154.1160510403.squirrel@webmail.russellsharpe.com> Message-ID: <008401c6eca8$6d616c80$0200a8c0@p2deskto> From: "Tobias Russell" > > Does anyone have a RD53 still in working condition? Is there any point in > keeping the duff drives or should I consign them to the skip? > We still have a few working in our VAX systems, but have had to change a couple in the last month. Jim. From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Oct 10 15:15:57 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:15:57 -0500 Subject: Logos and websites In-Reply-To: <1531454223@web.de> References: <1531454223@web.de> Message-ID: <452BFF7D.2060706@oldskool.org> Pierre Gebhardt wrote: > just a question: I'm working on a website which presents my collection of classic computers. > On the left side, there will be a navigatio bar with the company names and the respective modes. > I'd like to directly use the logos (images) of the brands in order to represent their names. > Could I run into to difficulties doing that? E.g. a company asking me to remove it or otherwise being confrontated > with law issues ? > For those who run a website? What are your experiences? Your website is historical/educational, which means it falls under the Fair Use clause of the copyright act. You should be fine. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 10 16:12:30 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 14:12:30 -0700 Subject: Ebay bunch of 4/2xx stuff in Philadelphia on eBay Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110042636347 Posting this since the listing title " Vintage Computer Items MUST SEE! Many Items, one go "is pretty useless. From staylor at mrynet.com Tue Oct 10 16:19:35 2006 From: staylor at mrynet.com (User Staylor) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:19:35 -0500 Subject: Need 3 dectapes read Message-ID: <200610102119.k9ALJZca076645@mrynet.com> I've tried manually searching the archives, but I can't find any references... Was there someone who would be able to read 3 DECtapes for me? Two of them are from PDP-11 RSTS systems. The third has sources from ancient UNIX (circa 1974) possibly 4th or 5th edition. Thanks in advance! -scott staylor at smedley dot mrynet dot com From pt at new.rr.com Tue Oct 10 17:11:40 2006 From: pt at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:11:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OT HP3000 question Message-ID: I have inherited a HP3000 918LX. Surpisingly enough it is OT being from 1999 or thereabouts; hopefully MPE/IX is venerable enough to fit in here. I didn't like the machine much when it was in production use as a billing system, but now that its mine I appreciate it a bit more. However, the thing came out of the box in 1999 with MPE 5.5 with 64MB of RAM and was intolerably slow. It was since been migrated (by HP consulting thank goodness) to 7.00 which did not speed it up any. Running a few simple commands and GLANCE begins to gripe about memory and CPU usage. I once exported an ASCII file from LOGTOOL and tried to 'grep' the resulting file in MPE POSIX mode and it took over 2 hours to complete. FTPing to a 90mhz (!) linux box and the grepping took three minutes. This was one of the machine were HP inserted NOP's in the firmware so you didn't get more speed than you paid for, but I would not mind adding some RAM. I have some A2580-60001 60ns RAM from a HP9000 D200 which looks to be compatible with a 918LX. I found other RAM part numbers which claimed to work with both D200's and 918LX's had trouble finding info on this one specifically. Anyone know for sure? I'd rather not release magic smoke. Paul From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 10 17:17:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:17:07 -0700 Subject: Logos and websites In-Reply-To: <452BFF7D.2060706@oldskool.org> References: <1531454223@web.de> <452BFF7D.2060706@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200610101517070487.5E3FA3CF@10.0.0.252> On 10/10/2006 at 3:15 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Your website is historical/educational, which means it falls under the >Fair Use clause of the copyright act. You should be fine. ...except that trademarks (which are what logos are) are treated separately from Copyright law--and probably a good thing too. Trademarks are governed by the Lanham Act. Here's a pretty good guide that should keep you out of the clutches of the weasels: http://www.publaw.com/fairusetrade.html Here's another that includes a fairly recent Supreme Court decision: http://www.cll.com/articles/article.cfm?articleid=32 Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 10 17:20:24 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:20:24 -0500 Subject: OT HP3000 question References: Message-ID: <004401c6ecba$dcaa7a70$6700a8c0@BILLING> Paul wrote..... >I have inherited a HP3000 918LX. Surpisingly enough it is OT being from >1999 or thereabouts; hopefully MPE/IX is venerable enough to fit in here. MPE is borderline probably, but what the heck :) > I have some A2580-60001 60ns RAM from a HP9000 D200 which looks to be > compatible with a 918LX. I found other RAM part numbers which claimed to > work with both D200's and 918LX's had trouble finding info on this one > specifically. I do not know for sure about module compatability. However, if you find they are compatible, I think I have some spare memory for my D220 that might be helpful to you. Jay From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Tue Oct 10 17:40:45 2006 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 00:40:45 +0200 Subject: FA: Amdahl Omniflex 1015 Millennium Omni Model 1015 Server Mainframe Message-ID: See item http://www.dovebid.com/assets/display.asp?ItemID=tbd269094 A bunch of SGIs for $25 : http://www.dovebid.com/assets/display.asp?ItemID=tbd272280 -- Stephane Paris, France. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 10 17:42:21 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Needed: Tandy 2000 manuals In-Reply-To: <200610091703330989.597ABD9A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20061010224221.65955.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Didn't the Tandy 2000 use an 80186? IIRC, the 186 > offered higher speeds > and integrated peripherals--a reasonable choice for > a personal computer. > Heaven knows, they weren't the only one to make the > 186 blunder. Yes it did. So did the Mindset, Northstar Dimension and Televideo Personal Mini (early file servers or something), Burroughs ICON (also available from Xerox IIRC), and maybe more. The earliest Orchid PC-Turbos had a '186, and if you look it up they were awarded some kind of patent for their toils. My Vermont Microsystems PGA clone has an 80188. There was some buzz back when that the Peanut was going to have an 80186. Perhaps that was just media speculation. I'd have to look over the tech manual again, but I was of the persuasion the T2K though sported an 80186, it ignored the integrated peripherals. The use or non-use of the integrated peripherals weren't it's biggest problems (duh like those SMC crt chips don't gum up the works). There was some talk on google groups recently where it was said there were subtle differences between the way the '186 executed instructions, and apparently wasn't 100% object code compatible with the 8086. Timing differences? Don't know. Maybe someone can confirm or deny. > If you wanted a PC compatible, you bought something > made in Taiwan. And if you wanted something even more peecee comp- atible then that, you copied actual peecee roms and plugged them in. I remember one of Dvorak's columns way back in PEECEE magazine complaining how the Canadians did alot of this. LOL no offence to my friends north of the border. I'm just telling you what he said. O man is I in trouble... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 10 17:24:08 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:24:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Needed: Tandy 2000 manuals In-Reply-To: <200610091703330989.597ABD9A@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 9, 6 05:03:33 pm Message-ID: > >1984, PCs already existed for 2+ years so why, oh why, did they decide to > >ignore the "PC compatible" trend? > > Although it's hard to believe in retrospect, this was not at all uncommon. > There were still a bunch of manufacturers out there who thought that they > could "do better' than IBM at PC design. There was also a mistaken notion Well, looking at the IBM design, that's not hard!. And most of what I call 'IBM Incompatibles' were indeed superior hardware designs to the IBM 5150. > that all one had to do was to be MS-DOS compatible. Think of what came before the IBM PC -- CP/M machines. Those had wildly differnt hardware (some had memory mapped video, some used a serial terminal, for example), and yet a lot of software would run on just about any CP/M box with fairly minor configuration. I think the problem was that the IBM BIOS was such a poor piece of firmware that you _had_ to hit the metal directly to do anything much. And that meant that BIOS (and worse still MS-DOS) compatibilty was not enough. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 10 17:45:08 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:45:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Soldering In-Reply-To: <005801c6ec8d$7edc0490$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> from "Ade Vickers" at Oct 10, 6 05:59:17 pm Message-ID: > > Is it just me, or is it now impossible to solder properly with "lead free" > solder and "lead free" flux? All I will says is that the number of dry joints in new consumer stuff here has got to _ridiculous_ levels. I find I have to resolder most things before they will work. Even simple things like LED torches and the like. And a friend of mine specifically looks for hard drives that have been soldered with leaded solder because of reliability problems with unleaded ones. Now, I am not saying that you _can't_ make a reliable connection with unleaded solder (althought the exemptions for medical and military stuff might seem to indicate that!), only that cheap stuff seems a lot less reliable than it was. The good news is that AFAIK if you're doing it for yourself, or if you're repairing something made before the deadline (and thus assembled with leaded solder) there's nothing to stop you using leaded solder now. So classic computer repairs can still be done with proper solder. > (PS: This has nothing to do with terminals - I was fabricating a new battery > pack for an Epson PX-8, due to the terminal expiration of the original) In whcih case there's nothing to stop you using leaded solder. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 10 18:11:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:11:09 -0700 Subject: OT: Soldering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200610101611090261.5E711AD2@10.0.0.252> This topic reminds me of a recent letter in Bob Pease's Electronic Design column: http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/ArticleID/13357/13357.html (It's the second letter) Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 10 18:25:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:25:26 -0700 Subject: Needed: Tandy 2000 manuals In-Reply-To: <20061010224221.65955.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061010224221.65955.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200610101625260156.5E7E2DE6@10.0.0.252> On 10/10/2006 at 3:42 PM Chris M wrote: > Yes it did. So did the Mindset, Northstar Dimension >and Televideo Personal Mini (early file servers or >something), Burroughs ICON (also available from Xerox >IIRC), and maybe more. Several more--one I was directly associated with was the Durango Systems Poppy--186 with optional 286 on the mobo. (The socket for the 286 was present on all models, but not always populated). > I'd have to look over the tech manual again, but I >was of the persuasion the T2K though sported an 80186, >it ignored the integrated peripherals. If so, that was almost criminal. The integrated 20 bit DMA in the 186 was superior to the 8237+4 upper bits latch kludge in the original PeeCee. > And if you wanted something even more peecee comp- >atible then that, you copied actual peecee roms and >plugged them in. I remember one of Dvorak's columns >way back in PEECEE magazine complaining how the >Canadians did alot of this. LOL no offence to my >friends north of the border. I'm just telling you what >he said. O man is I in trouble... My first XT-Taiwanese clone had the BASIC ROMs copied from my 5150. I still have it. AFAIK, all of the no-name Far East clones all duitifully had an extra EPROM socket or two, even if they were never sold with the socket(s) populated. Cheers, Chuck From tosteve at gmail.com Tue Oct 10 18:28:38 2006 From: tosteve at gmail.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:28:38 -0700 Subject: Mystery CPU board - 1981 - SAB-8086 Message-ID: <2e4ce2290610101628q30f27ddq3cb6846c1300146a@mail.gmail.com> Folks, I have a mystery CPU card from 1981. NSC DLC 86/05 CPU 1981 Functional status unknown. See photos below. You can have it if you need/want it (unless it's valuable...) 100Kb - http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/pics/card-small.jpg 400Kb - http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/pics/card-big.jpg Steve. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 10 18:29:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:29:15 -0700 Subject: Needed: Tandy 2000 manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200610101629150517.5E81ADCC@10.0.0.252> On 10/10/2006 at 11:24 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Think of what came before the IBM PC -- CP/M machines. Those had wildly >differnt hardware (some had memory mapped video, some used a serial >terminal, for example), and yet a lot of software would run on just about >any CP/M box with fairly minor configuration. I think it's odd that most of the CP/M software that I've encountered that requires a Z80 CPU (and not, say, an 8080/8085) was written in the twilight of the CP/M 8-bit systems, after the PC had made its debut. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 10 18:29:19 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Needed: Tandy 2000 manuals In-Reply-To: <200610101625260156.5E7E2DE6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20061010232919.1542.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > My first XT-Taiwanese clone had the BASIC ROMs > copied from my 5150. I > still have it. AFAIK, all of the no-name Far East > clones all duitifully > had an extra EPROM socket or two, even if they were > never sold with the > socket(s) populated. Even the 5150 had ancillary sockets, but I wasn't simply referring to adding BASIC roms to a board. What the big deal could have been I don't know, but some at least felt they were getting a little extra something by having the original IBM code on board. Yes there must have been some kind of difference, albeit small. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Oct 10 18:32:17 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Soldering In-Reply-To: <200610101611090261.5E711AD2@10.0.0.252> References: <200610101611090261.5E711AD2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Oct 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:11:09 -0700 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: OT: Soldering > > This topic reminds me of a recent letter in Bob Pease's Electronic Design > column: > > http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/ArticleID/13357/13357.html > > (It's the second letter) > > Cheers, > Chuck > > I'd second that the Kester (SN96.5/AG3/CU.5) work fine for me. Only noticeble differences are: Slightly duller finished joint Slightly higher MP Much stronger joints than leaded solder (say 2X) We've been doing Surface mount and through-hole RoHS compliant assembly for more than a year now. There has been no problem at all with solder joints. Peter Wallace From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Oct 10 18:37:22 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 18:37:22 -0500 Subject: Logos and websites In-Reply-To: <200610101517070487.5E3FA3CF@10.0.0.252> References: <1531454223@web.de> <452BFF7D.2060706@oldskool.org> <200610101517070487.5E3FA3CF@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <452C2EB2.2040702@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/10/2006 at 3:15 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Your website is historical/educational, which means it falls under the >> Fair Use clause of the copyright act. You should be fine. > > ...except that trademarks (which are what logos are) are treated > separately from Copyright law--and probably a good thing too. Trademarks > are governed by the Lanham Act. Yes, but he's not using the marks for any sort of financial gain or libel, so again, he should be fine. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 10 18:52:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 16:52:48 -0700 Subject: Logos and websites In-Reply-To: <452C2EB2.2040702@oldskool.org> References: <1531454223@web.de> <452BFF7D.2060706@oldskool.org> <200610101517070487.5E3FA3CF@10.0.0.252> <452C2EB2.2040702@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200610101652480700.5E973DC4@10.0.0.252> On 10/10/2006 at 6:37 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Yes, but he's not using the marks for any sort of financial gain or >libel, so again, he should be fine. In fact, trademark fair-use guidelines are much more liberal and straightforward than those of copyrighted material. "Fair use' in copyright is a mare's nest situated in a minefield. Cheers, Chuck From kenziem at sympatico.ca Tue Oct 10 19:18:23 2006 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 20:18:23 -0400 Subject: Apollo Domain series 3000 in NY Message-ID: <200610102018.25095.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Received a post from a fellow in New York with a machine to give away. > I have access to an Apollo Domain series 3000 machine, actually was > told to throw it out, and googled the make and model, just for fun. If you are interested email me and I'll forward the replies. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 10 19:42:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:42:09 -0700 Subject: Needed: Tandy 2000 manuals In-Reply-To: <20061010232919.1542.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061010232919.1542.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200610101742090965.5EC46CA2@10.0.0.252> On 10/10/2006 at 4:29 PM Chris M wrote: > Even the 5150 had ancillary sockets, but I wasn't >simply referring to adding BASIC roms to a board. What >the big deal could have been I don't know, but some at >least felt they were getting a little extra something >by having the original IBM code on board. Yes there >must have been some kind of difference, albeit small. One of the benefits was that code was in a standard location and RAM locations used by BIOS had a known assignment. There were early programs that simply used far CALLs to invoke bits and pieces of BIOS ROM routines. For many years, Phoenix tried to keep routine entry points the same as IBM in their BIOSes. Writing a BIOS that was "functionally" equivalent often wasn't good enough. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 10 19:48:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:48:26 -0700 Subject: Mystery CPU board - 1981 - SAB-8086 In-Reply-To: <2e4ce2290610101628q30f27ddq3cb6846c1300146a@mail.gmail.com> References: <2e4ce2290610101628q30f27ddq3cb6846c1300146a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200610101748260385.5ECA2AF3@10.0.0.252> On 10/10/2006 at 4:28 PM steven stengel wrote: >100Kb - http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/pics/card-small.jpg >400Kb - http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/pics/card-big.jpg Looks like a Multibus 8086 card, perhaps for an NSC Starplex development system. If there were any ROMs, they've been scavenged already. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 10 19:59:22 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 17:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: somewhat OT: the return of decimal mode Message-ID: <200610110059.k9B0xNU7020140@floodgap.com> Of course it's not decimal mode the way, say, a 6502 would do it but it's interesting to see a major architecture bring back non-binary-based operations (in this case base 10 calculations to avoid precision difficulties). http://news.com.com/IBMs+Power6+gets+help+with+math%2C+multimedia/2100-1006_3-6124451.html?tag=st_lh -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The best things in life are sold out. -------------------------------------- From hachti at hachti.de Tue Oct 10 20:26:49 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 03:26:49 +0200 Subject: Help with PDP11 modules, DEC and Plessey Message-ID: <452C4859.8010103@hachti.de> Hi folks, today I digged out some PDP11 modules. I wonder what I can do with them. A Plessey-labeled Unibus Box with 11/34 front panel (the simple one) is still waiting to be picked up by me or put to scrap... Ok, what I found: * DEC M8265+M8266 (11/34A CPU), M9301 bootstrap/terminator Question: Is that enough to get the machine going? Do I need anything else (except memory and a kind of tty interface)? What about the "parity controller" which I don't have? * Plessey PM-DC/11 "status control", P/N 700485-100C Plessey PM-K11 "disc control", P/N 700490-101E Plessey PM-K11 "data control", P/N 700475-100B Plessey PMDC/11 "bus control", P/N 700470-100B These are four quad wide boards. I have no clue what they are/where good for. No connectors. Some DIP switches. If anyone could help me out with some information and/or docs - would be great. * Plessey PM-DC1100, P/N 703380-100H This hex wide board looks like an Unibus SMD disk controller. If it's that I am VERY VERY VERY interested in information about that. At the place I found the parts there is still an SMD drive.... It has three 26 pin ribbon connectors and one 60 pin connector. * Plessey memory board (?!), P/N 701830-100G Some information about that would be great. If anyone has something to share.... Ok, if anyone can help me..... All the stuff is available to anybody urgently needing it. Good night, Philipp :-) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 10 23:27:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 21:27:23 -0700 Subject: somewhat OT: the return of decimal mode In-Reply-To: <200610110059.k9B0xNU7020140@floodgap.com> References: <200610110059.k9B0xNU7020140@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200610102127230771.5F929E4C@10.0.0.252> On 10/10/2006 at 5:59 PM Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Of course it's not decimal mode the way, say, a 6502 would do it but it's >interesting to see a major architecture bring back non-binary-based >operations (in this case base 10 calculations to avoid precision difficulties). I don't understand what the hubbub is about. Can anyone explain for me? Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Wed Oct 11 00:05:28 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 01:05:28 -0400 Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices Message-ID: <001901c6ecf2$de7f8e20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> http://stores.ebay.com/Computer-Marketing-Services I found some interesting things to buy, but then saw the prices... not only are they ASTRONOMICAL but the seller lists almost every item, even ordinary keyboards, as "Very Rare"... I wanted a Canon X-07 and a Toshiba T100 but he posted them at $299 and $399 respectively. What the hell!?!?!? From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Oct 10 13:37:39 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:37:39 +0100 Subject: Still Looking for Help In-Reply-To: <016301c6e43a$4f218230$3bd4ef42@66067007> References: <016301c6e43a$4f218230$3bd4ef42@66067007> Message-ID: <452BE873.5050308@gjcp.net> Keys wrote: > Hello All > I'm still looking for help with the second rescue attempt in Georgia and > need either 182 donors of $10 each or 1820 at $1 each. I would like to get > to these items before winter really gets here, so please if you can spare a > $1 (one buck) send it to the Houston Computer Museum, 15827 Thistledew > Drive, Houston, TX 77082-1432. Cash or a check will do. Again the first > trip > was a great success and many thanks to all donors for that rescue. > www.housoncomputermuseum.org If you've got a paypal account I can bung some money in. I'm not sure it's even legal to convert to US dollars and then post it into the US from outside... Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Oct 10 15:40:19 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 21:40:19 +0100 Subject: POTS; was: Anyone here from Oregon USA to help with collection pickup? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061001163739.02f03c68@mail.degnanco.net> <001c01c6e5a6$cd6fb5e0$3500a8c0@supertech> <200610011603530735.30115295@10.0.0.252> <452052E2.3020709@gmail.com> <200610011714000424.305182F6@10.0.0.252> <200610020341.XAA18471@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200610012206000564.315CD7E2@10.0.0.252> <200610021527.LAA00940@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200610020901320588.33B50043@10.0.0.252> <200610021700.NAA01515@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20061002174448.GC6514@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <452C0533.7010404@gjcp.net> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Mon, 2 Oct 2006, Sean Conner wrote: > >> But what about cell phones and roaming? Last year I went to Las Vegas >> with a friend of mine. My cell phone is in the 561 area code (Palm Beach >> County), my friend's phone is in the 205 area code (Tuscaloosa, Alabama). >> Las Vegas is 702. My Dad was able to call me (760) while I was in Las >> Vegas, and I was able to call my friend (205 area code, although >> phyically >> five feet away) from my cell phone. >> >> How do they handle *that*? > > This is getting dangerously OT, but what the hell, I used to test these > things :-) > > All calls from the PSTN to a particular cell number go to that number's > 'home' switch. This switch owns the enclosing block of numbers in the > PSTN sense. It also keeps track of which switch is the 'serving' switch > So there's no real way to distinguish between a mobile phone and a landline? Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Oct 10 15:49:00 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 21:49:00 +0100 Subject: RX02 Problem solved... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <452C073C.4030001@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > I can see no obvious reason why you'd get more errors on inner tracks if > the alignment was off. The errors would be on all tracks I would think. > Unless your leadscrew is so warn that the head is not properly postiioned > (I have _never_ seen that happen). I've seen a drive pick up a nice thick coating of dust and fuzz on the stepper lead screw, which prevented the head from travelling all the way in. Gordon. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Oct 11 01:30:06 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:30:06 +0200 Subject: Help with PDP11 modules, DEC and Plessey In-Reply-To: <452C4859.8010103@hachti.de> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488012@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Philipp Hachtmann > Sent: woensdag 11 oktober 2006 3:27 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Help with PDP11 modules, DEC and Plessey > > Hi folks, > > today I digged out some PDP11 modules. I wonder what I can do > with them. > A Plessey-labeled Unibus Box with 11/34 front panel (the > simple one) is still waiting to be picked up by me or put to scrap... > > Ok, what I found: > > * DEC M8265+M8266 (11/34A CPU), M9301 bootstrap/terminator > > Question: Is that enough to get the machine going? Do I need > anything else (except memory and a kind of tty interface)? > What about the "parity controller" which I don't have? Don't know about the parity controller. I am guessing that it belongs to the memory, not the 11/34 CPU. As you say, a little memory and a console interface M7856 is all you need, besides the DD11-PK (11/34 CPU) 9-slot backplane. If you got the two CPU boards inserted in a backplane, it's probably fine ... Ohh, you need a power supply to with all needed signals like DCLO etc. The 50/60 Hz "tick" is not needed for the CPU, it *might* for the OS to run on it. > * Plessey PM-DC/11 "status control", P/N 700485-100C > Plessey PM-K11 "disc control", P/N 700490-101E > Plessey PM-K11 "data control", P/N 700475-100B > Plessey PMDC/11 "bus control", P/N 700470-100B > > These are four quad wide boards. I have no clue what they > are/where good for. No connectors. Some DIP switches. > If anyone could help me out with some information and/or docs > - would be great. My first idea was immediately going to the RK11-D controller for the RK05 drives. The DEC (equivalent) modules are: M7254 - status control module M7255 - disk control module M7256 - registers module (data path) M7257 - bus control module > * Plessey PM-DC1100, P/N 703380-100H > > This hex wide board looks like an Unibus SMD disk controller. > If it's that I am VERY VERY VERY interested in information > about that. > At the place I found the parts there is still an SMD drive.... > It has three 26 pin ribbon connectors and one 60 pin connector. No clues here ... > * Plessey memory board (?!), P/N 701830-100G > > Some information about that would be great. If anyone has > something to share.... Again, I don't know ... > Ok, if anyone can help me..... > All the stuff is available to anybody urgently needing it. > > Good night, > Philipp :-) > Henk PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Wed Oct 11 01:44:53 2006 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Miller, Keven) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 00:44:53 -0600 Subject: OT HP3000 question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <452C92E5.2010408@reeltapetransfer.com> Paul Thompson wrote: > I have inherited a HP3000 918LX. Surpisingly enough it is OT being from > 1999 or thereabouts; hopefully MPE/IX is venerable enough to fit in here. On ebay search for A3131* in Computers. Right now there is this link (check the wrap!) http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-A3131-60001-128MB-SERVER-MEMORY-2X64MB-E-CLASS_W0QQitemZ220036181974QQihZ012QQcategoryZ58312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem which is listed for 5 more days. Its for a pair of A3131A 64M modules, making 128M memory. These are the largest (that I know of) memory cards that you can put into a 918. Up to 8 or them making a total of 512M. Over the past two years I've watched for these and slowly got my set of 8. Prices I've seen range from $12 a pair up to over $100 a pair. Right now these are listed at $20. This item doesn't list quantity available, but it also comes up in their ebay store, so I suspect they have more. (I just received a set that I purchased in the mail today). Note: when adding memory, I believe, the largest modules need to be installed first with the smaller ones behind them and Modules always need to be added in pairs. You can check your current setup by running sysinfo.prvxl.telesup as seen below. Keven Miller kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Fox 11:sysinfo.prvxl.telesup -------------------------------------------------------------------------- SysInfo_iX (A.06.04) cm2 08.2001 MPE/iX - HP e3000 System Support Tool WED, OCT 11, 2006, 12:21 AM Copyright Hewlett Packard Co. 1989 SysInfo_iX is designed for use by Hewlett Packard Support personnel only. HP IS NOT LIABLE FOR DAMAGES RESULTING FROM UNAUTHORIZED USE -------------------------------------------------------------------------- System Information as of WED, OCT 11, 2006, 12:21 AM MPE/iX HP31900C.16.01 OS: C.60.00 User Version: C.60.02 CPU Model: SERIES 918LX Memory: 512 Mb CPU ID : 1142176371 ($44143A73) Single Processor Limited to 8 Users )mem ------------------------ Memory Information------------------------- SYSTEM MEMORY MAP ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MEMORY CONTROLLER - HARDWARE MODEL NUMBER --------> $22 HARDWARE REVISION NUMBER -----> $0 HARDWARE PHYSICAL ADDRESS ----> $FFFBF000 PHYSICAL MEMORY SIZE ---------> 512 MBYTES MEMORY SIZE SLOT # NUMBER OF BANKS PER BANK STATUS ======== =============== =========== ======== 0A SINGLE (Lo) 64 MBYTES ENABLED 0B SINGLE (Lo) 64 MBYTES ENABLED 1A SINGLE (Lo) 64 MBYTES ENABLED 1B SINGLE (Lo) 64 MBYTES ENABLED 2A SINGLE (Lo) 64 MBYTES ENABLED 2B SINGLE (Lo) 64 MBYTES ENABLED 3A SINGLE (Lo) 64 MBYTES ENABLED 3B SINGLE (Lo) 64 MBYTES ENABLED ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ SPA MAPPING SLOT PAIR ADDRESS RANGE =========== ========================= 0A/0B (Lo) $0000000000 - $0007FFFFFF 1A/1B (Lo) $0008000000 - $000FFFFFFF 2A/2B (Lo) $0010000000 - $0017FFFFFF 3A/3B (Lo) $0018000000 - $001FFFFFFF ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ )e Fox 11: From marvin at rain.org Wed Oct 11 01:47:35 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:47:35 -0700 Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices Message-ID: <452C9387.CF604194@rain.org> > From: "Evan Koblentz" > > I found some interesting things to buy, but then saw the prices... not only > are they ASTRONOMICAL but the seller lists almost every item, even ordinary > keyboards, as "Very Rare"... I wanted a Canon X-07 and a Toshiba T100 but he > posted them at $299 and $399 respectively. What the hell!?!?!? I ran into those items yesterday while checking out pricing for classic computer stuff. My first comment is ... I'M RICH :). Second (and more seriously), I read a while ago that the average selling time for older books is five years. My guess in both cases is that they are priced for someone that *needs* them. I found another closed auction today for a BUNCH (approx. 25) of Northstar Advantage computers/boards/etc. with a starting bid of $500.00 with no reserve. Good thing I didn't see that when the auction was open :)!!! From marvin at rain.org Wed Oct 11 01:56:29 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 23:56:29 -0700 Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices Message-ID: <452C959D.5E52E6B8@rain.org> > From: "Evan Koblentz" > > http://stores.ebay.com/Computer-Marketing-Services > > I found some interesting things to buy, but then saw the prices... not only > are they ASTRONOMICAL but the seller lists almost every item, even ordinary > keyboards, as "Very Rare"... I wanted a Canon X-07 and a Toshiba T100 but he > posted them at $299 and $399 respectively. What the hell!?!?!? Okay, I got curious to see if he was selling anything. Checking all of his listings going back to those that closed a month ago, not a single item has been sold. This starts to restore my faith in the human race again :). I didn't check to see if they had a website and if they are using Ebay as inexpensive advertising to divert people to their website. http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems&userid=computermkt&include=0&since=31&sort=3&rows=50 From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Wed Oct 11 02:03:02 2006 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Miller, Keven) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 01:03:02 -0600 Subject: Need 3 dectapes read In-Reply-To: <200610102119.k9ALJZca076645@mrynet.com> References: <200610102119.k9ALJZca076645@mrynet.com> Message-ID: <452C9726.8020604@reeltapetransfer.com> User Staylor wrote: > Was there someone who would be able to read 3 DECtapes for me? Two of them are > from PDP-11 RSTS systems. The third has sources from ancient UNIX (circa 1974) > possibly 4th or 5th edition. I have offered to read tapes before. I have a 1600/6250 tape drive and have read MPE/IBM/DEC/unix tapes. However, sometimes if the tapes are old, they have not been readable; or contain various IO errors affecting some files. (Remember: 1600/6250, 9-track reels) I'm not a professional site -- its more of a hobby. I'm willing to do it for members of this list with small quantities of tapes -- no charge (or for others or large quantities for a small fee: www.reeltapetransfer.com) But you can check out other sites like http://www.electrovalueinc.com/ From their website, it looks like they do a reading service for $35. There are others, try google search for data recovery services. Keven Miller kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Oct 11 02:20:00 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:20:00 +0100 Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices In-Reply-To: <452C959D.5E52E6B8@rain.org> Message-ID: On 11/10/06 07:56, "Marvin Johnston" wrote: >> From: "Evan Koblentz" >> >> http://stores.ebay.com/Computer-Marketing-Services >> >> I found some interesting things to buy, but then saw the prices... not only >> are they ASTRONOMICAL but the seller lists almost every item, even ordinary >> keyboards, as "Very Rare"... I wanted a Canon X-07 and a Toshiba T100 but he >> posted them at $299 and $399 respectively. What the hell!?!?!? > > Okay, I got curious to see if he was selling anything. Checking all of his > listings going back to those that closed a month ago, not a single item has > been > sold. This starts to restore my faith in the human race again :). I didn't > check > to see if they had a website and if they are using Ebay as inexpensive > advertising to divert people to their website. Nice to see that my WOW! Page is still pertinent in this day and age, it was originally written back when ebay was still a pup. If anyone needs it translating into US English let me know :) (The M25 is europe's busiest motorway stroke car park, a perilous ring of doom that surrounds London that's always badly congested on days ending in 'y') http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/museum-wow.php -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From evan at snarc.net Wed Oct 11 02:32:57 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 03:32:57 -0400 Subject: Timeline of Silent 700 models? Message-ID: <002501c6ed07$79196820$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Per the subject line .... does anyone know of a thorough list of all TI Silent 700 terminals and the years of introduction? From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Oct 11 02:52:40 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 02:52:40 -0500 Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices In-Reply-To: <452C9387.CF604194@rain.org> References: <452C9387.CF604194@rain.org> Message-ID: <452CA2C8.9000406@oldskool.org> Marvin Johnston wrote: > guess in both cases is that they are priced for someone that *needs* them. But who "needs" an 8-bit ISA Peanut modem, probably of the 300 or 1200 baud variety? There are many better alternatives if you're limited to 8-bit ISA slots, selling for the cost of postage on ebay... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From javickers at solutionengineers.com Wed Oct 11 03:51:36 2006 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 09:51:36 +0100 Subject: OT: Soldering In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000a01c6ed12$87f28510$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> Tony Duell wrote: > All I will says is that the number of dry joints in new > consumer stuff here has got to _ridiculous_ levels. I find I > have to resolder most things before they will work. Even > simple things like LED torches and the like. I can't say I've experienced that, but on the other hand I've not bought any electronic consumer stuff in the last couple of years. Time will tell... > Now, I am not saying that you _can't_ make a reliable > connection with unleaded solder (althought the exemptions for > medical and military stuff might seem to indicate that!), > only that cheap stuff seems a lot less reliable than it was. I found that with my standard iron, the solder simply wouldn't grip the wires no matter what I did. Possibly, because the solder I bought (distress purchase from B&Q) wasn't flux cored, and I couldn't find my tin of flux. > The good news is that AFAIK if you're doing it for yourself, > or if you're repairing something made before the deadline > (and thus assembled with leaded solder) there's nothing to > stop you using leaded solder now. So classic computer repairs > can still be done with proper solder. This is what I did in the end (I have recently re-discovered my reel of thin, leaded, flux-cored solder. And it works a treat - although in this particular case (& what prompted the rant) was I was trying to solder decidedly sub-optimal wires; the negative wire has corroded down pretty much the entire length of cable. Eventually, I managed to make them stick (just) by sanding them as best I could, then using lots of flux & solder to get a tiny little bit of tinning done, then sticking them in a massive big blob of solder on the bottom of the battery. It's ugly, and weak, but it has worked. I will re-visit the whole job, though, when I find a suitable plug connector. > > (PS: This has nothing to do with terminals - I was > fabricating a new > > battery pack for an Epson PX-8, due to the terminal > expiration of the > > original) > > In whcih case there's nothing to stop you using leaded solder. Is it possible to still buy leaded solder from anywhere? Cheers, Ade. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.2/471 - Release Date: 10/10/2006 From fryers at gmail.com Wed Oct 11 04:57:20 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 10:57:20 +0100 Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices In-Reply-To: References: <452C959D.5E52E6B8@rain.org> Message-ID: Hey All, On 10/11/06, Adrian Graham wrote: > Nice to see that my WOW! Page is still pertinent in this day and age, it was > originally written back when ebay was still a pup. If anyone needs it > translating into US English let me know :) Read just like many of the autions I read on ebay... Kinda scary! On ebay UK there is someone selling a DEC pin badge as rare. This one item has been comming up in my searches for what seems like at least six months. I am guessing that the selling has a box of them! (Item number 130035232505 is anyone wants the reference). > (The M25 is europe's busiest motorway stroke car park, a perilous ring of > doom that surrounds London that's always badly congested on days ending in > 'y') The M25 fine between the hours of 23:00 and 06:00. The uncalibrated speedometer in my car has shown me doing 80m/h down some streches. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From pt at new.rr.com Wed Oct 11 07:13:59 2006 From: pt at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 07:13:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OT HP3000 question In-Reply-To: <452C92E5.2010408@reeltapetransfer.com> References: <452C92E5.2010408@reeltapetransfer.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Oct 2006, Miller, Keven wrote: > Paul Thompson wrote: >> I have inherited a HP3000 918LX. Surpisingly enough it is OT being from >> 1999 or thereabouts; hopefully MPE/IX is venerable enough to fit in here. > > Over the past two years I've watched for these and slowly got my set of 8. > Prices I've seen range from $12 a pair up to over $100 a pair. Right now > these are > listed at $20. > That sysinfo.prvxl.telesup is a neat trick. I had to horse around some in CSTM to get it to give me the MEM info for the first time, it first said the info wasn't available. System Information as of WED, OCT 11, 2006, 5:54 AM MPE/iX HP31900C.39.06 OS: C.70.00 User Version: C.70.00 CPU Model: SERIES 918LX Memory: 64 Mb CPU ID : 175176381 ($A70FABD) Single Processor Limited to 8 Users I'll have a look at that auction. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Oct 11 07:37:58 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:37:58 -0400 Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices In-Reply-To: <001901c6ecf2$de7f8e20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001901c6ecf2$de7f8e20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: On Oct 11, 2006, at 1:05 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > http://stores.ebay.com/Computer-Marketing-Services > > I found some interesting things to buy, but then saw the prices... > not only > are they ASTRONOMICAL but the seller lists almost every item, even > ordinary > keyboards, as "Very Rare"... I wanted a Canon X-07 and a Toshiba > T100 but he > posted them at $299 and $399 respectively. What the hell!?!?!? > The interesting thing is that he will list items for bidding, then if they don't sell he will relist them at a higher price. He does eventually sell things so I guess it encourages the high prices. Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From drb at msu.edu Wed Oct 11 07:56:59 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:56:59 -0400 Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:37:58 EDT.) References: <001901c6ecf2$de7f8e20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <200610111256.k9BCuxWE020327@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > http://stores.ebay.com/Computer-Marketing-Services > > I found some interesting things to buy, but then saw the prices... > not only are they ASTRONOMICAL but the seller lists almost every item, > even ordinary keyboards, as "Very Rare"... I wanted a Canon X-07 > and a Toshiba T100 but he posted them at $299 and $399 respectively. > What the hell!?!?!? > > The interesting thing is that he will list items for bidding, then > if they don't sell he will relist them at a higher price. He does > eventually sell things so I guess it encourages the high prices. This character drives me nuts. If the Pr1me gear currently listed is any indication, he has no clue what any of it is, and apparently thinks people hang this !@#%&*() on their walls as art. I offered to help him properly id stuff, even provided what details I could work out from his descriptions and (crummy) photos. He's relisted it all twice since, unchanged. De -- I'll just be over here forcing myself to breathe deeply. From pt at new.rr.com Wed Oct 11 08:54:14 2006 From: pt at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 08:54:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OT HP3000 question In-Reply-To: <004401c6ecba$dcaa7a70$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <004401c6ecba$dcaa7a70$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Oct 2006, Jay West wrote: >> I have some A2580-60001 60ns RAM from a HP9000 D200 which looks to be >> compatible with a 918LX. I found other RAM part numbers which claimed to >> work with both D200's and 918LX's had trouble finding info on this one >> specifically. > I do not know for sure about module compatability. However, if you find they > are compatible, I think I have some spare memory for my D220 that might be > helpful to you. > I decided what the heck since there existed modules which claimed to work in both machine types. The unit would not even power on with the D200 RAM in it, either by itself or with the old RAM. Put the old RAM back in and all OK. Bummer. From ray at arachelian.com Wed Oct 11 09:27:38 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 10:27:38 -0400 Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices In-Reply-To: References: <001901c6ecf2$de7f8e20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <452CFF5A.6030402@arachelian.com> Robert Borsuk wrote: > The interesting thing is that he will list items for bidding, then if > they don't sell he will relist them at a higher price. > He does eventually sell things so I guess it encourages the high prices. I've seen this kind of behavior before. It seems to be a new business model. It works by listing and relisting the same items, or opening it as a store and listing them always. Whenever anyone sells a similar item that competes with the store, that store bids and buys the item, then relists it at the higher price. Even if they don't win those items, they'll at least drive up the prices for them to be in range with what their store is selling, thus driving up the expected price for that item in the market. The end goal is to be the only source for a set of items, and to be always available. The high price of the items justifies their cost of doing business (space, ebay fees, buying competing items, etc.) but of course screws the buyers. In the long run, supposedly, they wind up making more money by being the only source. That's what you're seeing. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 11 12:13:37 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 17:13:37 +0000 Subject: Logos and websites In-Reply-To: <200610101652480700.5E973DC4@10.0.0.252> References: <1531454223@web.de> <452BFF7D.2060706@oldskool.org> <200610101517070487.5E3FA3CF@10.0.0.252> <452C2EB2.2040702@oldskool.org> <200610101652480700.5E973DC4@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <452D2641.4090102@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/10/2006 at 6:37 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Yes, but he's not using the marks for any sort of financial gain or >> libel, so again, he should be fine. > > In fact, trademark fair-use guidelines are much more liberal and > straightforward than those of copyrighted material. "Fair use' in > copyright is a mare's nest situated in a minefield. Surely it's all academic given that we don't know where the original poster lives (they didn't say) - won't the copyright law vary wildly from country to country? I suspect that the law which applies is the law in the site owner's home country, which we don't know. *generally* I'd say that putting up a bunch of logos for non-profit use should be fine - it's not like it's doing the company any harm, or releasing information into the wild which isn't already readily visible elsewhere. About the worst I'd expect is a polite letter once in a blue moon along the lines of: "our logo has changed; please take the old one down and replace it with the new one". As I said though, I'm sure each country's laws differ, and given the global nature of the 'net the ones which apply are probably those for the site owner's home country (or possibly the country in which their site's ISP is based, if different) cheers Jules -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 11 11:15:34 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 10:15:34 -0600 Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 11 Oct 2006 10:27:38 -0400. <452CFF5A.6030402@arachelian.com> Message-ID: In article <452CFF5A.6030402 at arachelian.com>, Ray Arachelian writes: > [...] In the long run, supposedly, they wind up > making more money by being the only source. Yes, its all part of my plan to become the sole supplier for C=64s, by crushing 99% of them and sending them to landfills. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 11 11:38:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 09:38:27 -0700 Subject: Logos and websites In-Reply-To: <452D2641.4090102@yahoo.co.uk> References: <1531454223@web.de> <452BFF7D.2060706@oldskool.org> <200610101517070487.5E3FA3CF@10.0.0.252> <452C2EB2.2040702@oldskool.org> <200610101652480700.5E973DC4@10.0.0.252> <452D2641.4090102@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200610110938270539.622FF416@10.0.0.252> On 10/11/2006 at 5:13 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >As I said though, I'm sure each country's laws differ, and given the >global nature of the 'net the ones which apply are probably those for the site >owner's home country (or possibly the country in which their site's ISP is >based, if different) Given the spider's web of WTO treaties regarding intellectual property, it's probably best to play safe. I suspect that if a multinational requested his ISP to pull his account because of trademark abuse, the ISP would likely comply. Unless, of course, the OP lives in Cambodia, where IP seems to be only a theoretical concept. My point in posting was that trademark law is not the same as copyright law--and that was a good thing, as generally-accepted guidelines for "fair use" of trademarks tend to be more liberal. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 11 12:37:41 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 10:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: somewhat OT: the return of decimal mode In-Reply-To: <200610102127230771.5F929E4C@10.0.0.252> References: <200610110059.k9B0xNU7020140@floodgap.com> <200610102127230771.5F929E4C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20061011103656.N86499@shell.lmi.net> > On 10/10/2006 at 5:59 PM Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >Of course it's not decimal mode the way, say, a 6502 would do it but it's > >interesting to see a major architecture bring back non-binary-based > >operations (in this case base 10 calculations to avoid precision > difficulties). On Tue, 10 Oct 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't understand what the hubbub is about. Can anyone explain for me? Has somebody invented Binary Coded Decimal? From ken at seefried.com Wed Oct 11 13:33:30 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:33:30 -0400 Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices In-Reply-To: <200610111700.k9BH06UY084262@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200610111700.k9BH06UY084262@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061011183330.3250.qmail@seefried.com> Make them an offer. There seems to be group of sellers that list things at prices that would have been apropos for a depot repair kind of outfit before eBay existed looking for the "OMFG I have to have that part" hit, but are more than willing to listen to deals offline. Ken From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 11 13:56:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 11:56:33 -0700 Subject: somewhat OT: the return of decimal mode In-Reply-To: <20061011103656.N86499@shell.lmi.net> References: <200610110059.k9B0xNU7020140@floodgap.com> <200610102127230771.5F929E4C@10.0.0.252> <20061011103656.N86499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200610111156330566.62AE630E@10.0.0.252> On 10/11/2006 at 10:37 AM Fred Cisin wrote: >Has somebody invented Binary Coded Decimal? I'm a big fan of XS3 and biquinary, myself. :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 11 14:08:07 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:08:07 -0600 Subject: somewhat OT: the return of decimal mode In-Reply-To: <20061011103656.N86499@shell.lmi.net> References: <200610110059.k9B0xNU7020140@floodgap.com> <200610102127230771.5F929E4C@10.0.0.252> <20061011103656.N86499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <452D4117.7090602@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > Has somebody invented Binary Coded Decimal? Not really. IBM has patented a way of packing 2 decimal digits into 7 binary bits.Of course more hardware is needed but that is patented too. I think the thing that killed BCD computers is thae lack of BCD memory addressing. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Wed Oct 11 14:16:57 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:16:57 -0700 Subject: somewhat OT: the return of decimal mode In-Reply-To: <200610111156330566.62AE630E@10.0.0.252> References: <200610110059.k9B0xNU7020140@floodgap.com> <200610102127230771.5F929E4C@10.0.0.252> <20061011103656.N86499@shell.lmi.net> <200610111156330566.62AE630E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <452D4329.90703@dakotacom.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/11/2006 at 10:37 AM Fred Cisin wrote: > >> Has somebody invented Binary Coded Decimal? > > I'm a big fan of XS3 and biquinary, myself. :) "Decimal" does not imply BCD. My decimal math package uses "binary" encoding -- but "thinks" in decimal. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Oct 11 14:20:11 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (doc at mdrconsult.com) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:20:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: somewhat OT: the return of decimal mode In-Reply-To: <20061011103656.N86499@shell.lmi.net> References: <200610110059.k9B0xNU7020140@floodgap.com><200610102127230771.5F929E4C@10.0.0.252> <20061011103656.N86499@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <55929.32.97.110.142.1160594411.squirrel@www.mdrconsult.com> I might be out of my mind (and mistaken too!), but I'm pretty sure that POWER systems have always been BCD-enabled. At least since POWER2. Doc >> On 10/10/2006 at 5:59 PM Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >Of course it's not decimal mode the way, say, a 6502 would do it but >> it's >> >interesting to see a major architecture bring back non-binary-based >> >operations (in this case base 10 calculations to avoid precision >> difficulties). > On Tue, 10 Oct 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I don't understand what the hubbub is about. Can anyone explain for >> me? > > Has somebody invented Binary Coded Decimal? > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 11 14:31:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:31:11 -0700 Subject: somewhat OT: the return of decimal mode In-Reply-To: <452D4117.7090602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200610110059.k9B0xNU7020140@floodgap.com> <200610102127230771.5F929E4C@10.0.0.252> <20061011103656.N86499@shell.lmi.net> <452D4117.7090602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200610111231110345.62CE174C@10.0.0.252> On 10/11/2006 at 1:08 PM woodelf wrote: >Not really. IBM has patented a way of packing 2 decimal >digits into 7 binary bits.Of course more hardware is needed >but that is patented too. Ah, so 00-63 hex is now proprietary. Better check my old code for violations... >I think the thing that killed BCD computers is thae lack of >BCD memory addressing. You never used a 1620? Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 11 14:36:17 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 15:36:17 -0400 Subject: somewhat OT: the return of decimal mode In-Reply-To: <55929.32.97.110.142.1160594411.squirrel@www.mdrconsult.com> References: <200610110059.k9B0xNU7020140@floodgap.com><200610102127230771.5F929E4C@10.0.0.252> <20061011103656.N86499@shell.lmi.net> <55929.32.97.110.142.1160594411.squirrel@www.mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <452D47B1.20406@gmail.com> doc at mdrconsult.com wrote: > I might be out of my mind (and mistaken too!), but I'm pretty sure that > POWER systems have always been BCD-enabled. At least since POWER2. I'm reasonably certain that you're right. Even with regards to the POWER1. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 11 14:38:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:38:29 -0700 Subject: somewhat OT: the return of decimal mode In-Reply-To: <452D4117.7090602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200610110059.k9B0xNU7020140@floodgap.com> <200610102127230771.5F929E4C@10.0.0.252> <20061011103656.N86499@shell.lmi.net> <452D4117.7090602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200610111238290489.62D4C6C8@10.0.0.252> On 10/11/2006 at 1:08 PM woodelf wrote: >Not really. IBM has patented a way of packing 2 decimal >digits into 7 binary bits.Of course more hardware is needed >but that is patented too. You know, that's not particularly memory-efficient. Packing 6 digits into 20 bits is better. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 11 14:44:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:44:35 -0700 Subject: somewhat OT: the return of decimal mode In-Reply-To: <200610111156330566.62AE630E@10.0.0.252> References: <200610110059.k9B0xNU7020140@floodgap.com> <200610102127230771.5F929E4C@10.0.0.252> <20061011103656.N86499@shell.lmi.net> <200610111156330566.62AE630E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200610111244350389.62DA5C10@10.0.0.252> As long as we're OT, here are two limericks I found on oedilf.com: In the earliest Boolean days All logic was built hardware-ways. The math, now outmoded, Was BCD-coded, Most often when used with displays. When base 2 and base 5 make a pair, A bi-quinary number is there. It's what abaci use, And can roundly confuse Round-eyed Yanks at a Chinatown fair. Biquinary numbers derive >From two systems--base 2 and base 5. Every decimal n Is expressible then As a sum (if you're hip to the jive). From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 11 14:57:04 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:57:04 -0600 Subject: somewhat OT: the return of decimal mode In-Reply-To: <200610111231110345.62CE174C@10.0.0.252> References: <200610110059.k9B0xNU7020140@floodgap.com> <200610102127230771.5F929E4C@10.0.0.252> <20061011103656.N86499@shell.lmi.net> <452D4117.7090602@jetnet.ab.ca> <200610111231110345.62CE174C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <452D4C90.1090709@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/11/2006 at 1:08 PM woodelf wrote: > Ah, so 00-63 hex is now proprietary. Better check my old code for > violations... No it is the way you pack the data. > You never used a 1620? Yes, but I got the programming book to go with that. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 11 14:58:30 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:58:30 -0600 Subject: somewhat OT: the return of decimal mode In-Reply-To: <200610111156330566.62AE630E@10.0.0.252> References: <200610110059.k9B0xNU7020140@floodgap.com> <200610102127230771.5F929E4C@10.0.0.252> <20061011103656.N86499@shell.lmi.net> <200610111156330566.62AE630E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <452D4CE6.1000200@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/11/2006 at 10:37 AM Fred Cisin wrote: > I'm a big fan of XS3 and biquinary, myself. :) > What is XS3? I like the idea of a trinary computer myself but all we have is binary memory. :( From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Oct 11 15:06:44 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 16:06:44 -0400 Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices In-Reply-To: <20061011183330.3250.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200610111700.k9BH06UY084262@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20061011183330.3250.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: On Oct 11, 2006, at 2:33 PM, Ken Seefried wrote: > Make them an offer. There seems to be group of sellers that list > things at prices that would have been apropos for a depot repair > kind of outfit before eBay existed looking for the "OMFG I have to > have that part" hit, but are more than willing to listen to deals > offline. > Ken Here's what happens when you "make deals" off of eBay. I got burned, and yes, I bought from him before. http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=dreamin-v Rob Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 11 15:11:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:11:00 -0700 Subject: somewhat OT: the return of decimal mode In-Reply-To: <452D4C90.1090709@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200610110059.k9B0xNU7020140@floodgap.com> <200610102127230771.5F929E4C@10.0.0.252> <20061011103656.N86499@shell.lmi.net> <452D4117.7090602@jetnet.ab.ca> <200610111231110345.62CE174C@10.0.0.252> <452D4C90.1090709@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200610111311000965.62F28DA8@10.0.0.252> On 10/11/2006 at 1:57 PM woodelf wrote: >No it is the way you pack the data. I can see how manipulating the data (and the circuitry involved therein) might be a basis for a patent, but how can one legitimately patent a representation of a number? How many of the required 100 states out of 128 possible would have to overlap before I'm sued for infringement? Am I infringing more if I use Gray code, XS3, biquinary, or LFSR states to represent my 100 states? Cheers, Chuck From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Oct 11 15:10:49 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 16:10:49 -0400 Subject: Timeline of Silent 700 models? In-Reply-To: <200610111700.k9BH0bZQ084296@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001801c6ed71$58cb1770$6700a8c0@barry> Not exactly, but I can get close (I worked for TI ... in fact in the printer division). They were introduced in the early-1970's ... I was using second generation models in 1977. By 1989 (when I joined TI), I'm pretty sure that they had been discontinued, but they were still in widespread use, and were still being supported. Barry Watzman Watzman at neo.rr.com *************** Message: 5 Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 03:32:57 -0400 From: "Evan Koblentz" Subject: Timeline of Silent 700 models? To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Message-ID: <002501c6ed07$79196820$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Per the subject line .... does anyone know of a thorough list of all TI Silent 700 terminals and the years of introduction? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 11 15:30:10 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:30:10 -0600 Subject: somewhat OT: the return of decimal mode In-Reply-To: <200610111311000965.62F28DA8@10.0.0.252> References: <200610110059.k9B0xNU7020140@floodgap.com> <200610102127230771.5F929E4C@10.0.0.252> <20061011103656.N86499@shell.lmi.net> <452D4117.7090602@jetnet.ab.ca> <200610111231110345.62CE174C@10.0.0.252> <452D4C90.1090709@jetnet.ab.ca> <200610111311000965.62F28DA8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <452D5452.4090104@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/11/2006 at 1:57 PM woodelf wrote: > > >>No it is the way you pack the data. > > > I can see how manipulating the data (and the circuitry involved therein) > might be a basis for a patent, but how can one legitimately patent a > representation of a number? How many of the required 100 states out of 128 > possible would have to overlap before I'm sued for infringement? Am I > infringing more if I use Gray code, XS3, biquinary, or LFSR states to > represent my 100 states? > > Cheers, > Chuck Check here. This was not the orginal link I thought of. All I know is with IBM they seem to have invented this packing algorithom most likely patented for hardware. http://www2.hursley.ibm.com/decimal/ From trag at io.com Wed Oct 11 15:27:30 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 15:27:30 -0500 Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices In-Reply-To: <200610111700.k9BH0bZO084296@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200610111700.k9BH0bZO084296@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 10:27:38 -0400 >From: Ray Arachelian >Robert Borsuk wrote: >> The interesting thing is that he will list items for bidding, then if >> they don't sell he will relist them at a higher price. >> He does eventually sell things so I guess it encourages the high prices. >I've seen this kind of behavior before. It seems to be a new business >model. > >It works by listing and relisting the same items, or opening it as a >store and listing them always. Whenever anyone sells a similar item >that competes with the store, that store bids and buys the item, then >relists it at the higher price. Even if they don't win those items, >they'll at least drive up the prices for them to be in range with what >their store is selling, thus driving up the expected price for that item >in the market. > >The end goal is to be the only source for a set of items, and to be >always available. The high price of the items justifies their cost of >doing business (space, ebay fees, buying competing items, etc.) but of >course screws the buyers. In the long run, supposedly, they wind up >making more money by being the only source. > >That's what you're seeing. I think I experienced this first hand within the last year. I bid on a Fujitsu magneto-optical drive. Ah, here's the URL still on my Snipeswipe page . I was willing to go to about $16 (with shipping it would have been closer to $30). After the auction, the high bidder had the gall to email me to tell me that he sells items of the type I'm interested in and that I should visit his store. Of course, he sells MO drives for well over $100. So this creature outbids me and then tries to turn around and sell me the same item at a higher price. If I had been willing to pay more, I would have bid higher. I can't point out some way in which this behaviour is morally wrong, but it is certainly irritating. Jeff Walther From cheri-post at web.de Wed Oct 11 16:01:47 2006 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 23:01:47 +0200 Subject: Logos and websites Message-ID: <1534682973@web.de> Hello guys, thanks alot for your answers. Unfortunately, I hadn't time yet to read the articles but I'll sure do that as soon as it's the case. To answer the question where I'm situated; I live in Germany. Lawers around here try to find possibilities to gain money by pointing out websites in wwhich law stuff my be broken in any way. It's absolutely rediculous and I don't want to have to pay a thousand euro jsut because a picture had been used without getting a permission for example. But from what you've been pointing out, it seems that it's not a problem to use some logos in the given context. And the context after all is purely educational / historical. So I guess that it shouldn't be a problem. I dont think that there will be issues the my ISP. Nethertheless, is it necessary to ad something like "Alll logos are trademarks of their owners bla bla..." ? Anyway, my site will be up soonish, I'll post a comment as soon as it's the case, as I'd like to get your opinions about it. Thanks, Pierre > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 10/10/2006 at 6:37 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > > > >> Yes, but he's not using the marks for any sort of financial gain or > >> libel, so again, he should be fine. > > > > In fact, trademark fair-use guidelines are much more liberal and > > straightforward than those of copyrighted material. "Fair use' in > > copyright is a mare's nest situated in a minefield. > > Surely it's all academic given that we don't know where the original poster > lives (they didn't say) - won't the copyright law vary wildly from country to > country? I suspect that the law which applies is the law in the site owner's > home country, which we don't know. > > *generally* I'd say that putting up a bunch of logos for non-profit use should > be fine - it's not like it's doing the company any harm, or releasing > information into the wild which isn't already readily visible elsewhere. About > the worst I'd expect is a polite letter once in a blue moon along the lines > of: "our logo has changed; please take the old one down and replace it with > the new one". > > As I said though, I'm sure each country's laws differ, and given the global > nature of the 'net the ones which apply are probably those for the site > owner's home country (or possibly the country in which their site's ISP is > based, if different) > > cheers > > Jules > > > -- > If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow > You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw _______________________________________________________________________ Viren-Scan f?r Ihren PC! Jetzt f?r jeden. Sofort, online und kostenlos. Gleich testen! http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 11 16:03:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:03:16 -0700 Subject: somewhat OT: the return of decimal mode In-Reply-To: <452D4CE6.1000200@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200610110059.k9B0xNU7020140@floodgap.com> <200610102127230771.5F929E4C@10.0.0.252> <20061011103656.N86499@shell.lmi.net> <200610111156330566.62AE630E@10.0.0.252> <452D4CE6.1000200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200610111403160735.632266A3@10.0.0.252> On 10/11/2006 at 1:58 PM woodelf wrote: >What is XS3? Sometimes called "excess three". Basically, a system of doing decimal arithmetic on a binary computer by biasing decimal numbers by 3. Thus decimal 0 = binary 0011; decimal 9 = 1100. There are many other "BCD" codes, such as 5311, 2421. All of these (XS3, 5311, 2421) have the property that the binary one's complement of a number is also the 9's complement--a property not enjoyed by 8421 decimal. CDC 6000 COBOL used a type of XS3 for its decimal arithmetic--a rather happy coincidence being that octal 33 was the display code for zero and 44 was the code for nine. It was possible to do addition and subtraction on two 10-digit decimal numbers without resorting to branching--using only shift, AND and ADD operations. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 11 16:07:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:07:29 -0700 Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices In-Reply-To: References: <200610111700.k9BH0bZO084296@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200610111407290781.63264317@10.0.0.252> On 10/11/2006 at 3:27 PM Jeff Walther wrote: >After the auction, the high bidder had the gall to email me to tell >me that he sells items of the type I'm interested in and that I >should visit his store. Of course, he sells MO drives for well over >$100. This is the reason that I use "sniping" on ePay--waiting until the last second or two to place a bid. I simply prime the sniping software days ahead of time with what I'm willing to pay and don't fall prey to "auction madness". If the price has been bid up too high by the time the auction closes, the other bidders don't know that I'm even in the market for the item. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 11 16:10:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:10:45 -0700 Subject: Logos and websites In-Reply-To: <1534682973@web.de> References: <1534682973@web.de> Message-ID: <200610111410450715.63294073@10.0.0.252> On 10/11/2006 at 11:01 PM Pierre Gebhardt wrote: >But from what you've been pointing out, it seems that it's not a problem >to use some logos in the given context. >And the context after all is purely educational / historical. So I guess >that it shouldn't be a problem. As I read the articles, as long as you're using the logos to identify a product and not attempting to dilute the value of the trademark or denigrate the product or trademark, you're on fairly firm footing. Cheers, Chuck From vax at purdue.edu Wed Oct 11 10:25:45 2006 From: vax at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 11:25:45 -0400 Subject: Need 3 dectapes read In-Reply-To: <452C9726.8020604@reeltapetransfer.com> References: <200610102119.k9ALJZca076645@mrynet.com> <452C9726.8020604@reeltapetransfer.com> Message-ID: <200610111125.45720.vax@purdue.edu> On Wednesday 11 October 2006 03:03, Miller, Keven wrote: > User Staylor wrote: > > Was there someone who would be able to read 3 DECtapes for me? Two > > of them are from PDP-11 RSTS systems. The third has sources from > > ancient UNIX (circa 1974) possibly 4th or 5th edition. > > I have offered to read tapes before. > I have a 1600/6250 tape drive and have read MPE/IBM/DEC/unix tapes. I'll point out that DECtapes are NOT 9-track tapes. You need a TU55/TU56 to read them. (or a homebrew version of that...) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac From jrkeys at jrkeys.cnc.net Wed Oct 11 12:52:00 2006 From: jrkeys at jrkeys.cnc.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 12:52:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Still Looking for Help In-Reply-To: <016301c6e43a$4f218230$3bd4ef42@66067007> Message-ID: <200610111752.NAA13226@captain.cnc.net> ---- General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts wrote: > > Keys wrote: > > Hello All > > I'm still looking for help with the second rescue attempt in Georgia and > > need either 182 donors of $10 each or 1820 at $1 each. I would like to get > > to these items before winter really gets here, so please if you can spare a > > $1 (one buck) send it to the Houston Computer Museum, 15827 Thistledew > > Drive, Houston, TX 77082-1432. Cash or a check will do. Again the first > > trip > > was a great success and many thanks to all donors for that rescue. > > www.housoncomputermuseum.org > > If you've got a paypal account I can bung some money in. I'm not sure > it's even legal to convert to US dollars and then post it into the US > from outside... > > Gordon. > > Yes, I have received money from overseas before with no problem on paypal ( they charge a "across the border\" fee. Use donations at houstoncomputermuseum.org on paypal. Thanks for the help. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 11 17:24:27 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 22:24:27 +0000 Subject: somewhat OT: the return of decimal mode In-Reply-To: <452D4CE6.1000200@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200610110059.k9B0xNU7020140@floodgap.com> <200610102127230771.5F929E4C@10.0.0.252> <20061011103656.N86499@shell.lmi.net> <200610111156330566.62AE630E@10.0.0.252> <452D4CE6.1000200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <452D6F1B.8080805@yahoo.co.uk> woodelf wrote: > I like the idea of a trinary computer myself > but all we have is binary memory. :( Memory's cheap; stack it two bits wide and encode/decode between your memory and data bus... ;-) -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From recycler at swbell.net Wed Oct 11 17:46:50 2006 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick J. Jankowiak) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 17:46:50 -0500 Subject: FWD DEC Pro 350s and 380s for Sale In-Reply-To: <58b.352527c.325e044d@aol.com> References: <58b.352527c.325e044d@aol.com> Message-ID: <452D745A.8090202@swbell.net> Hello Jesse, I do not longer collect them, the museum is defunct. I will forward your message to the classic computer collectors list, by CC. Thanks, Patrick TO CC members: please contact the gentleman "Jesse Bunch" directly if you have an interest in the below described equipment. The pro380 as I recall is quite a nice box and the 350 is nothing to sneeze at. Thank you, Patrick SpiriTek1 at aol.com wrote: > Hi, > > I have 9 DEC PRo 350's and 380's plus color and mono monitors for them, > cables, boards, even one unit mounted on the stand with wheels. Do you > have any interest in these? I am in Silver Spring, MD. I got these > over 10 years ago when I used to buy computer eqpt from Federal Govt > auctions and resell eqpt. > > > 301-910-7858 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 11 17:58:57 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 11:58:57 +1300 Subject: FWD DEC Pro 350s and 380s for Sale In-Reply-To: <452D745A.8090202@swbell.net> References: <58b.352527c.325e044d@aol.com> <452D745A.8090202@swbell.net> Message-ID: On 10/12/06, Patrick J. Jankowiak wrote: > TO CC members: please contact the gentleman "Jesse Bunch" directly if > you have an interest in the below described equipment. The pro380 as I > recall is quite a nice box and the 350 is nothing to sneeze at. Agreed... I'm not in the area, so I'm going to pass on these, but they _are_ nice machines (RT-11, P/OS (RSX-11 variant), Xenix, and 2BSD). For the less-well-familiar, the Pro 350 has an F-11 chip (11/23), and the Pro 380 has a J-11 (11/73). RX50s are common (ubiquitous?) and a large number of units had a hard drive between 5MB (RD50/ST506) and 30MB (RD52/various). They might not be as fast or as easy to expand as random cards in a Qbus chassis, but they are a nice package if you just want to dabble in the PDP-11. If the 'stand with wheels' is the model I'm remembering, it's a bit uncommon (most folks just put the Pro on their desk). The mono monitors are likely to be VR201s which work with DECmates and Rainbows. The color monitors _might_ be VR241s, which also work with VT241 bases. Nice haul for someone close. -ethan P.S. - if anyone happens to have a spare PSU for a Pro380, I'm casually looking for one. (I think there are two capacities in the same form factor - there was a Pro325 that was floppy-only - not enough juice to run a hard drive). > SpiriTek1 at aol.com wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I have 9 DEC PRo 350's and 380's plus color and mono monitors for them, > > cables, boards, even one unit mounted on the stand with wheels. Do you > > have any interest in these? I am in Silver Spring, MD. I got these > > over 10 years ago when I used to buy computer eqpt from Federal Govt > > auctions and resell eqpt. > > > > 301-910-7858 > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 11 17:48:43 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 23:48:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Help with PDP11 modules, DEC and Plessey In-Reply-To: <452C4859.8010103@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Oct 11, 6 03:26:49 am Message-ID: > > Hi folks, > > today I digged out some PDP11 modules. I wonder what I can do with them. > A Plessey-labeled Unibus Box with 11/34 front panel (the simple one) is > still waiting to be picked up by me or put to scrap... > > Ok, what I found: > > * DEC M8265+M8266 (11/34A CPU), M9301 bootstrap/terminator > > Question: Is that enough to get the machine going? Do I need anything > else (except memory and a kind of tty interface)? What about the "parity > controller" which I don't have? Other things you'll need are the backplane (which is not the normal Unibus-only backplane, some slots are specially wired for the CPU cards), as you say, memory and a console interface, a terminator (M9302) for the other end of the bus and grant continuity cards. You don't need a parity controller unless you have an 18 bit wide RAM board (i.e. with parity fro each byte) which doesn't have the controller built-in. > > * Plessey PM-DC/11 "status control", P/N 700485-100C > Plessey PM-K11 "disc control", P/N 700490-101E > Plessey PM-K11 "data control", P/N 700475-100B > Plessey PMDC/11 "bus control", P/N 700470-100B > > These are four quad wide boards. I have no clue what they are/where good > for. No connectors. Some DIP switches. > If anyone could help me out with some information and/or docs - would > be great. Those sound like the boards from a Plessy disk controller. Again you need a special backplane,it's a 4 slot thing. It was mostly RK11-D compatible, althoghh there were minor differeces in the drive interface (that were easy to get round). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 11 18:02:53 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 00:02:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Soldering In-Reply-To: <000a01c6ed12$87f28510$0f01a8c0@solution.engineers> from "Ade Vickers" at Oct 11, 6 09:51:36 am Message-ID: > > I found that with my standard iron, the solder simply wouldn't grip the That might be the first problem. Unleaded solder melts at a higher temperature than the stuff we're used to. I think you _need_ a temperature-controller iron to use it properly. > wires no matter what I did. Possibly, because the solder I bought (distress > purchase from B&Q) wasn't flux cored, and I couldn't find my tin of flux. And no solder will work without flux. > > > The good news is that AFAIK if you're doing it for yourself, > > or if you're repairing something made before the deadline > > (and thus assembled with leaded solder) there's nothing to > > stop you using leaded solder now. So classic computer repairs > > can still be done with proper solder. > > This is what I did in the end (I have recently re-discovered my reel of > thin, leaded, flux-cored solder. And it works a treat - although in this > particular case (& what prompted the rant) was I was trying to solder > decidedly sub-optimal wires; the negative wire has corroded down pretty much > the entire length of cable. Eventually, I managed to make them stick (just) Why don't you replace the wire? You were making a battery for the PX8, right? The connecotrs (2.5mm spacing) are available from RS components (as ever that's not Radio Shack), I bought some when I did up my PX8. I checked earlier tonight, they are still listed. If you can't find them, I will dig out the stock numbers for you. > by sanding them as best I could, then using lots of flux & solder to get a > tiny little bit of tinning done, then sticking them in a massive big blob of > solder on the bottom of the battery. It's ugly, and weak, but it has worked. > I will re-visit the whole job, though, when I find a suitable plug > connector. Be careful. If I rememebr the PX8 schematic correctly, the battery is used as a shut regulator. If it goes open-circuit when the charger is connected, there's a risk of damaging ICs. One thing I made up was a cable with a PX8 battery connector on one end and 2 4mm plugs on the other. I can run my PX8 from a bench supply set to 5V without needed a battery. Of course I looe all RAM contents when I turn the supply off, but that's not a major problem (I have the disk drive...) -tony From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Oct 11 19:00:04 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 20:00:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061012000004.4F94E57ED7@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Jeff Walther > > > I bid on a Fujitsu magneto-optical drive. Ah, here's the URL still > on my Snipeswipe page > . > > I was willing to go to about $16 (with shipping it would have been > closer to $30). > > After the auction, the high bidder had the gall to email me to tell > me that he sells items of the type I'm interested in and that I > should visit his store. Of course, he sells MO drives for well over > $100. > > So this creature outbids me and then tries to turn around and sell me > the same item at a higher price. If I had been willing to pay more, > I would have bid higher. > > I can't point out some way in which this behaviour is morally wrong, > but it is certainly irritating. > Maybe he thinks he is doing you a favour? (Or if this item doesn't come up often, he believes he can extort some money out of you depending on how much you want it..) Cheers, Bryan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 11 21:13:55 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 19:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices In-Reply-To: References: <200610111700.k9BH06UY084262@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20061011183330.3250.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Oct 2006, Robert Borsuk wrote: > > Here's what happens when you "make deals" off of eBay. > I got burned, and yes, I bought from him before. > > http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=dreamin-v Huh? It just looks like you bought stuff from him on eBay, which he didn't deliver. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Oct 11 21:33:16 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 22:33:16 -0400 Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices In-Reply-To: References: <200610111700.k9BH06UY084262@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20061011183330.3250.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: On Oct 11, 2006, at 10:13 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 11 Oct 2006, Robert Borsuk wrote: >> >> Here's what happens when you "make deals" off of eBay. >> I got burned, and yes, I bought from him before. >> >> http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? >> ViewFeedback&userid=dreamin-v > > Huh? It just looks like you bought stuff from him on eBay, which he > didn't deliver. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? If you look at the items on eBay, that didn't total over $300 worth of stuff. In fact it was almost $400 I was buying. It started out with some eBay stuff and then about another $300+ of side stuff. All Data General equipment. What a shame. Anyways, when a month rolled around and I thought I might be getting stiffed I contacted paypal. I even sent them our correspondence. They said it looked like I only bought $70+ dollars on ebay, and with their new refund policy of only a partial refund, I got back about $63. So what can you do? I can threaten him, negative him, make sure that if he ever lists on ebay again I contact all his bidders. What a hassle.Thank goodness at least ebay removed him as a registered user. Rob Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Oct 11 21:59:16 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 22:59:16 -0400 Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices References: <20061012000004.4F94E57ED7@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <006401c6edaa$67fd13e0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 8:00 PM Subject: Re: What the hell -- CRAZY prices > And thusly were the wise words spake by Jeff Walther > > > > > > I bid on a Fujitsu magneto-optical drive. Ah, here's the URL still > > on my Snipeswipe page > > . > > > > I was willing to go to about $16 (with shipping it would have been > > closer to $30). > > > > After the auction, the high bidder had the gall to email me to tell > > me that he sells items of the type I'm interested in and that I > > should visit his store. Of course, he sells MO drives for well over > > $100. > > > > So this creature outbids me and then tries to turn around and sell me > > the same item at a higher price. If I had been willing to pay more, > > I would have bid higher. > > > > I can't point out some way in which this behaviour is morally wrong, > > but it is certainly irritating. > > > > Maybe he thinks he is doing you a favour? (Or if this item doesn't > come up often, he believes he can extort some money out of you > depending on how much you want it..) > > Cheers, > > Bryan >From what I have seen on ebay MO drives seem to go for more money then they are worth. I snagged a 1.3GB 5.25" MO free from somebody who wanted his garage space back with about 100 media discs, but before I started using them for archives I figured I should get a 2nd drive. Ebay prices for the older drives seemed a bit expensive to me, and only a couple sellers bothered listing them at all. So I managed to find another compatible drive on a google swap list real cheap and purchased it there. I figured if one drive dies I have time to find another and can still use the archive for my old 68K Macs as needed. If you are going to corner the market you need an uncommon item that people used for mission critical backup, MO drives fit the bill for this. If you have to restore a file on MO you will pay a premium for the drive (which either broke or was sold off for scrap a long time ago). From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Oct 11 23:04:14 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 23:04:14 -0500 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked Message-ID: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> I'm not sure if this is old news, but the MSDOS 6.0 code was leaked; a copy should still be available at http://www.nurs.or.jp.nyud.net:8080/~nnn/MS-DOS.6.0.Source.Code.zip for the curious. All x86 assembler, of course. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 11 23:38:48 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 22:38:48 -0600 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <452DC6D8.8040105@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > I'm not sure if this is old news, but the MSDOS 6.0 code was leaked; a > copy should still be available at > http://www.nurs.or.jp.nyud.net:8080/~nnn/MS-DOS.6.0.Source.Code.zip for > the curious. All x86 assembler, of course. Better grab the tools too - linker asembler ect. From sdc695 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 11 18:13:06 2006 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 16:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Timeline of Silent 700 models? Message-ID: <20061011231306.35829.qmail@web60814.mail.yahoo.com> I don't know about the timeline of Silent 700s, but I seem to have a few of the bulkier ones in my garage (near San Jose, CA) complete with cassette tape drives if anyone wants to "take them off my hands". I even have a manual somewhere. I've also got some of the smaller ones (with built in acoustic coupler) but I'll probably keep that one (unless offered some $$$). If interested, contact me off list. They were introduced in the 70's (75/76?) as I remember. If you had your Bell 103 modem (I have one of those, another story), they were pretty neat things for "offline" editing of text files. Not exactly a vi editor, but better than paper tape (that's not saying much). Pretty reliable as a "hard copy" (thermal printing) terminal. Now days, you can use thermal FAX paper in them and it works OK. Great to hook up to your DP-8 or something of similar vintage. Just a few facts..... -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Oct 12 09:07:47 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 07:07:47 -0700 Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices In-Reply-To: <20061012000004.4F94E57ED7@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: >From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) > >And thusly were the wise words spake by Jeff Walther > > > > > > I bid on a Fujitsu magneto-optical drive. Ah, here's the URL still > > on my Snipeswipe page > > . > > > > I was willing to go to about $16 (with shipping it would have been > > closer to $30). > > > > After the auction, the high bidder had the gall to email me to tell > > me that he sells items of the type I'm interested in and that I > > should visit his store. Of course, he sells MO drives for well over > > $100. > > > > So this creature outbids me and then tries to turn around and sell me > > the same item at a higher price. If I had been willing to pay more, > > I would have bid higher. > > > > I can't point out some way in which this behaviour is morally wrong, > > but it is certainly irritating. > > > >Maybe he thinks he is doing you a favour? (Or if this item doesn't >come up often, he believes he can extort some money out of you >depending on how much you want it..) > >Cheers, > >Bryan > He Could actually be the same person that put the item for bid or a shill for that seller. Dwight From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 12 09:48:24 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 09:48:24 -0500 Subject: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest Message-ID: <00d201c6ee0d$808eb720$6700a8c0@BILLING> TSIA :) I was skimming through the 11/34 manuals, and some confusion about the termination of that system made me re-read through the M9312 manual. Something doesn't seem right and points to me not understanding something. I seek enlightenment from the list. As I've understood things, you have to terminate both ends of the unibus. Let's say you're dealing with an 11/34 with no expansion backplanes (ie. just a DD11-PK). According to the 11/34 manual you put the M9302 terminator in slot 9AB. That makes sense, it's the unibus out. All the other AB slots are MUD (except slot 1AB, and we'll get to THAT in a moment). So about that other end of the bus now! The manual states you need a M9301 bootstrap/terminator just after the processor (typically, it may be further down if you have the FP and/or Cache options). That also makes sense to me, gotta terminate that "near" bus end. I had a M9302, but I didn't have a M9301. I wondered if I could use a M9312 in place of the M9301. So... I skimmed the M9312 bootstrap/terminator manual, and sure enough, it definitely talks about being able to use the M9312 instead of a M9301 in a processor that "has bus termination built into the cpu such as the 11/04 & 11/34". It even says that you must set the jumpers on the M9312 to remove it's termination capability, because in these specific processors the cpu provides bus termination. Ok, great. I can use my M9312 in place of the M9301 long as I jumper it as described. But... now wait a second! This gives rise to my first question. If the cpu is providing termination, and if you are going to use a M9312 on the near side you have to "jumper off" the M9312's termination ability... then WHY is a M9301 called a "bootstrap TERMINATOR". It must NOT be a terminator, just a bootstrap rom card. Right? It seems to me that if the cpu is providing the termination on the near end, that it is always doing so. Not JUST when you pull out the 9301 and put in the 9312. What gives there? That gives rise to my second question. IF the cpu is providing unibus termination on the one side... why can't you jumper the M9312 to provide bus termination and just put it in slot 9AB? You would get the other end (unibus out) terminated AND get your boot roms as well. This way the M9312 would replace both the 9301 AND the 9302. A few people I mentioned this to said you can't do that. But given the above... it seems logical. What's the scoop here? Clarification is much appreciated! Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 12 09:57:48 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 09:57:48 -0500 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452DC6D8.8040105@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <01d501c6ee0e$df086520$6700a8c0@BILLING> woodelf wrote.... > Better grab the tools too - linker asembler ect. Which are... located where? J From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 12 11:14:14 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:14:14 +0000 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <452DC6D8.8040105@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452DC6D8.8040105@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <452E69D6.1060103@yahoo.co.uk> woodelf wrote: > All x86 assembler, of course. That's interesting - given the evolution of both DOS and the IT industry, I'm surprised that at least parts weren't written in some other language (e.g. C) by the time version 6 came out. > Better grab the tools too - linker asembler ect. Nah, Freedos works just fine for everything I've so far tried it for... -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 12 11:33:13 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:33:13 -0600 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <452E69D6.1060103@yahoo.co.uk> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452DC6D8.8040105@jetnet.ab.ca> <452E69D6.1060103@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <452E6E49.7070904@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > That's interesting - given the evolution of both DOS and the IT > industry, I'm surprised that at least parts weren't written in some > other language (e.g. C) by the time version 6 came out. How do we know it was not cross-assembled? CP/M has a very interesting development history, so DOS may have. With all the stuff I have seen on the web about old OS's, source code is not the only thing needed. How it was bootstraped on the original computer is important too. >> Better grab the tools too - linker asembler ect. > Nah, Freedos works just fine for everything I've so far tried it for... Alas I got to use Crap-dows for internet and a few games. PS. I hindsite why did they not have the time of day clock set to some rational freq like 30 HZ? From trag at io.com Thu Oct 12 11:52:41 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 11:52:41 -0500 Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices In-Reply-To: <200610121613.k9CGDclr098181@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200610121613.k9CGDclr098181@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 14:07:29 -0700 >From: "Chuck Guzis" >Subject: Re: What the hell -- CRAZY prices >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Message-ID: <200610111407290781.63264317 at 10.0.0.252> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >On 10/11/2006 at 3:27 PM Jeff Walther wrote: > >>After the auction, the high bidder had the gall to email me to tell >>me that he sells items of the type I'm interested in and that I >>should visit his store. > >This is the reason that I use "sniping" on ePay--waiting until the last >second or two to place a bid. I did, in fact, use snipeswipe on that auction. But he had a higher bid in place than my snipe. Like I wrote, it wasn't losing the item, that didn't surprise me as my bid was low. It was being emailed by this guy who clearly didn't want the item, he was just outbidding others so he could turn around and charge them more money that it would have cost them if his sorry chemical composition was disassociated. Jeff Walther From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 12 12:23:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:23:14 -0700 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <452E69D6.1060103@yahoo.co.uk> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452DC6D8.8040105@jetnet.ab.ca> <452E69D6.1060103@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200610121023140755.677F4AA0@10.0.0.252> On 10/12/2006 at 4:14 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >That's interesting - given the evolution of both DOS and the IT industry, >I'm surprised that at least parts weren't written in some other language (e.g. >C) by the time version 6 came out. I've probed around in the archive and it looks to be the real thing, based on some old MS-DOS 2.00 code samples I obtained from Microsoft directly--you can still see references to things link IBMBIO.COM. Miserable coding style, by the way--it's amazing that the product could support its own weight for as long as it did. Newer utilities are written in C, for what it's worth--which is about what I'd expect. An interesting bit of the archie is that it includes the source for qbasic--something I didn't expect. And the source and documentation (such as it is) for COW--Microsoft's Character Windows. >From a historical standpoint, it's pretty cool. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 12 12:25:48 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 11:25:48 -0600 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 11 Oct 2006 23:04:14 -0500. <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <452DBEBE.3090305 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > [...] All x86 assembler, of course. There's a good chunk of C code in there, too. Not everything is in assembler, although the older parts are and things like the bootstrap sector are in assembler. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Oct 12 12:28:12 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:28:12 -0700 Subject: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest In-Reply-To: <00d201c6ee0d$808eb720$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <00d201c6ee0d$808eb720$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <452E7B2C.1090703@mindspring.com> Jay West wrote: > TSIA :) > > I was skimming through the 11/34 manuals, and some confusion about the > termination of that system made me re-read through the M9312 manual. > Something doesn't seem right and points to me not understanding > something. I seek enlightenment from the list. > > As I've understood things, you have to terminate both ends of the > unibus. Let's say you're dealing with an 11/34 with no expansion > backplanes (ie. just a DD11-PK). According to the 11/34 manual you put > the M9302 terminator in slot 9AB. That makes sense, it's the unibus > out. All the other AB slots are MUD (except slot 1AB, and we'll get to > THAT in a moment). So about that other end of the bus now! The manual > states you need a M9301 bootstrap/terminator just after the processor > (typically, it may be further down if you have the FP and/or Cache > options). That also makes sense to me, gotta terminate that "near" bus > end. I had a M9302, but I didn't have a M9301. I wondered if I could > use a M9312 in place of the M9301. So... > > I skimmed the M9312 bootstrap/terminator manual, and sure enough, it > definitely talks about being able to use the M9312 instead of a M9301 > in a processor that "has bus termination built into the cpu such as > the 11/04 & 11/34". It even says that you must set the jumpers on the > M9312 to remove it's termination capability, because in these specific > processors the cpu provides bus termination. Ok, great. I can use my > M9312 in place of the M9301 long as I jumper it as described. But... > now wait a second! This gives rise to my first question. If the cpu is > providing termination, and if you are going to use a M9312 on the near > side you have to "jumper off" the M9312's termination ability... then > WHY is a M9301 called a "bootstrap TERMINATOR". It must NOT be a > terminator, just a bootstrap rom card. Right? It seems to me that if > the cpu is providing the termination on the near end, that it is > always doing so. Not JUST when you pull out the 9301 and put in the > 9312. What gives there? > > That gives rise to my second question. IF the cpu is providing unibus > termination on the one side... why can't you jumper the M9312 to > provide bus termination and just put it in slot 9AB? You would get the > other end (unibus out) terminated AND get your boot roms as well. This > way the M9312 would replace both the 9301 AND the 9302. A few people I > mentioned this to said you can't do that. But given the above... it > seems logical. What's the scoop here? > > Clarification is much appreciated! > > Jay West > The issue is there are two different aspects of the UNIBUS that are being terminated: The 11/04 and 11/34 CPUs *ONLY* electrically terminate the BG1-4 and NPG lines; the rest of the UNIBUS address/data/control lines are unterminated and have drivers/receivers only. The M9301/M9312 modules *ALWAYS* electrically terminate the UNIBUS address/data/control lines, *EXCEPT* there are jumpers (W1-W5) that allow selection of whether or not the UNIBUS BG1-4 and NPG signals are electrically terminated. The M9302 module *ALWAYS* terminates ALL UNIBUS lines, address/data/control, BGx/NPG. It also does SACK turnaround, but that is a hole other issue. So when the M9312/M9301 manuals talk about 'programmable termination' they really only mean 'BGx and NPG'; the termination of the other UNIBUS signals is not programmable. What really happens is: Slot1/M8265 CPU - unterminated UNIBUS addr/data/ctrl Slot2/M8266 CPU - terminated UNIBUS BGx/NPG drivers (pullup only) Slot3/M9312 BOOT/TERM - terminated UNIBUS addr/data/ctrl; BGx/NPG unterminated/passthru .... Slot9/M9302 TERM - terminated UNIBUS addr/data/ctrl; terminated BGx/NPG So electrically the UNIBUS is terminated by the M9312 in slot 3 and the M9302 in slot 9. For the specific case of the BGx/NPG signals, they are terminated (pullup only) at the processor in slot2 (or slot1 for the 11/04) and slot9 at the end of the bus. Hope this clears things up a bit. Don North From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Thu Oct 12 12:49:48 2006 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:49:48 -0400 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked Message-ID: <8dd2d95c0610121049s4f9f289ci7a5c2635863928d0@mail.gmail.com> My lord, that's a HUGE wad of code for something as simple as MS-DOS... How the HECK can an OS that fits on a floppy with room to spare have 20 megs of ASM source. Does the wad include the tools that M$ ripped off like Doublespace and the like? From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Oct 12 13:05:30 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:05:30 -0400 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0610121049s4f9f289ci7a5c2635863928d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200610121803.k9CI3ZsW032709@keith.ezwind.net> On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:49:48 -0400, Michael Kerpan wrote: >My lord, that's a HUGE wad of code for something as simple as >MS-DOS... How the HECK can an OS that fits on a floppy with room to >spare have 20 megs of ASM source. Does the wad include the tools that >M$ ripped off like Doublespace and the like? Once upon a time, the idea was to take a huge amount of logic documented by vast amounts of source code to produce a very small piece of binary object code, optimized to do the task. Today it take very few lines of source code to link into many megs of object code. Why ? Because we became lazy and adopted the use of cascadeing libarys. The other Bob From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Oct 12 13:25:10 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:25:10 -0500 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <452E6E49.7070904@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452DC6D8.8040105@jetnet.ab.ca> <452E69D6.1060103@yahoo.co.uk> <452E6E49.7070904@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <452E8886.5060206@oldskool.org> woodelf wrote: > How do we know it was not cross-assembled? A quick poke at the code shows stuff in the .asm like "invoke (routine)" so there must have been something going on. I'm not familiar with "invoke", rather CALL and the like. > PS. I hindsite why did they not have the time of day clock set to some > rational freq like 30 HZ? Probably because they were trying to get it all the way down to 1Hz (so that only full-second resolution were available) and were stopped by the 16-bit value of the divider which only allows going down to 18.2Hz... Or maybe instead they thought "the less interrupts firing, the more CPU time left over for apps" and just made it as slow as it could go. No idea, really... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From drb at msu.edu Thu Oct 12 13:29:24 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:29:24 -0400 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 12 Oct 2006 09:57:48 CDT.) <01d501c6ee0e$df086520$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <01d501c6ee0e$df086520$6700a8c0@BILLING> <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452DC6D8.8040105@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200610121829.k9CITPWO010261@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > Better grab the tools too - linker asembler ect. > > Which are... located where? In the tarball, best I can tell. De From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Oct 12 13:32:53 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:32:53 -0500 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <452E8886.5060206@oldskool.org> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452DC6D8.8040105@jetnet.ab.ca> <452E69D6.1060103@yahoo.co.uk> <452E6E49.7070904@jetnet.ab.ca> <452E8886.5060206@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <452E8A55.8090405@oldskool.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > woodelf wrote: >> How do we know it was not cross-assembled? > > A quick poke at the code shows stuff in the .asm like "invoke (routine)" > so there must have been something going on. I'm not familiar with > "invoke", rather CALL and the like. BTW, check out some of these comments: http://digg.com/security/MS_DOS_6_0_appears_to_be_on_Google_Code_Search My favorite source code comments, pardon the french: ; fuckin' sixteen-bit machine ought ; to be able to handle a SIXTEEN-BIT ; DISPLACEMENT!! With the runner-up: ; BIOS is fucking with us - give up -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Oct 12 13:35:44 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:35:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <452E8886.5060206@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20061012183544.9677E5851E@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Jim Leonard > > woodelf wrote: > > How do we know it was not cross-assembled? > > A quick poke at the code shows stuff in the .asm like "invoke (routine)" Don't you mean PEEK? ;) > so there must have been something going on. I'm not familiar with > "invoke", rather CALL and the like. > Cheers, Bryan P.S. And don't worry, I'll be here all week... From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 12 13:42:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 11:42:42 -0700 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0610121049s4f9f289ci7a5c2635863928d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <8dd2d95c0610121049s4f9f289ci7a5c2635863928d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200610121142420219.67C80961@10.0.0.252> On 10/12/2006 at 1:49 PM Michael Kerpan wrote: >My lord, that's a HUGE wad of code for something as simple as >MS-DOS... How the HECK can an OS that fits on a floppy with room to >spare have 20 megs of ASM source. Does the wad include the tools that >M$ ripped off like Doublespace and the like? AKA Magicdrive? No, it doesn't, sorry. One or two MSDN CD-ROMs had a pretty good rundown on Doublespace, however. Curiously, the material quietly disappeared from the MSDN collection later. Cheers, Chuck From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Oct 12 14:34:09 2006 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:34:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked Message-ID: <25479121.1160681649038.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> invoke is a macro that allows for handling small code model versus large code model... located in dosmac.inc ; call a procedure that may be external. The call will be short. invoke MACRO name .xcref IF2 IFNDEF name EXTRN name:NEAR ENDIF ENDIF .cref CALL name ENDM .xcref invoke -----Original Message----- >From: Bryan Pope >Sent: Oct 12, 2006 2:35 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: MSDOS Source code leaked > >And thusly were the wise words spake by Jim Leonard >> >> woodelf wrote: >> > How do we know it was not cross-assembled? >> >> A quick poke at the code shows stuff in the .asm like "invoke (routine)" > >Don't you mean PEEK? ;) > > >> so there must have been something going on. I'm not familiar with >> "invoke", rather CALL and the like. >> > >Cheers, > >Bryan > >P.S. And don't worry, I'll be here all week... > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 12 14:34:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 12:34:13 -0700 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <452E8886.5060206@oldskool.org> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452DC6D8.8040105@jetnet.ab.ca> <452E69D6.1060103@yahoo.co.uk> <452E6E49.7070904@jetnet.ab.ca> <452E8886.5060206@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200610121234130916.67F73633@10.0.0.252> woodelf wrote: > PS. I hindsite why did they not have the time of day clock set to some > rational freq like 30 HZ? The interrupt rate was set in the BIOS, probably before PC-DOS was even envisioned. So why 55 msec? Easy-- The clock frequency is derived from the 4.77 MHz system clock and is 1.19318 MHz, derived from the 4.77 MHz processor clock. The largest interrupt interval allowed by the 8253 CTC is 65536 counts, which gives you 18.2 times per second. This was a wise move--handling a periodic interrupt to keep the clock updated (and also to figure out when to turn diskette drive motors off) is expensive on slower processors. And, the faster the clock, the tighter the constraints on OS code to not disable interrupts for excessive periods. Given the speed of the original 5150, a 55 msec timer interval was pretty reasonable. Coicidentally, there are quite nearly 2**16 of these interrupts in an hour. It's instructive to compare the original 5150 BIOS code listing with the dreck present in MS-DOS. The BIOS is carefully documented, and enjoys a certain amount of convention. So, if you're within a procedure at label C12, you know that label C13 will probably be the next label in the listing. The BIOS was probably written by a mainframe programmer who had learned to deal with design review meetings, large multi-coder projects and code review. As a curious aside, the trimmer near the 14 MHz crystal on the 5150 is intended not to adjust the time-of-day clock accuracy, but rather to adjust color rendition with the CGA card. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 12 14:39:05 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:39:05 -0500 Subject: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest References: <000e01c6ee2f$1bc7cb70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <000701c6ee36$17b23f00$6700a8c0@BILLING> Don wrote.... > The issue is there are two different aspects of the UNIBUS that are being > terminated: Aha. Now that makes sense! Thank you :) What that means to me then is that in the /34 the 9302 should only be plugged in to a the AB unibus out slot and NOT in a MUD slot, otherwise, you get a funny smell I bet :) So what about the 9312 in the /34 then. I assume it can only (no matter HOW it's jumpered) be put in a MUD (AB) slot, never in an AB unibus slot (Unibus in or Unibus Out). ?? Then, this of course brings me back to my dearly beloved (sarcasm) /45. In that machine, the cpu doesn't terminate anything from what I understand, hence the 930 at the front in slot 1AB. I assume in the /45 then, you CAN put the (appropriately jumpered) 9312 in the last slot (unibus out), and that you don't put another 930 in that slot and put the 9312 in a prior AB slot. Is that all correct? Thanks so much! Jay From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 12 15:05:33 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:05:33 -0600 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:05:30 -0400. <200610121803.k9CI3ZsW032709@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <200610121803.k9CI3ZsW032709 at keith.ezwind.net>, "Bob" writes: > Why ? Because we became lazy and adopted the use of cascadeing libarys. Another way to look at it is that hardware became cheap and programmer's became expensive, so we optimized for the programmer time needed to get the job done. I for one and glad I don't have to write complex distributed applications in assembly language. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 12 15:07:47 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:07:47 -0700 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <25479121.1160681649038.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <25479121.1160681649038.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200610121307470121.6815EE34@10.0.0.252> On 10/12/2006 at 3:34 PM Steve Thatcher wrote: >invoke is a macro that allows for handling small code model versus large >code model... The INVOKE macro cited merely declares the target of the call to be NEAR if not already defined. By the time MASM 6 (aka ML) came out, extended INVOKE was well internalized into MASM--and allowed parameter passing (as well as simplified segment definitions, procedure prototypes, procedure-local labels and a host of other worthwhile features). But this was just a formalization of what many programmers were already doing via macros. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 12 15:17:37 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: from Richard at "Oct 12, 6 02:05:33 pm" Message-ID: <200610122017.k9CKHb0E015284@floodgap.com> > I for one and glad I don't have to write complex distributed > applications in assembly language. Wimp. ;) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegcaps awound? --------------------------------- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 12 16:26:21 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 21:26:21 +0000 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <452EB2FD.7000508@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > I for one and glad I don't have to write complex distributed > applications in assembly language. but then most applications aren't distributed, nor are they even complex at the algorithm level - the complexity these days comes purely because individual applications try to do far too much (we've shifted from lots of small tools doing one job only to few big tools doing lots of different jobs). From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 12 15:36:21 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:36:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UniVac Factronic Computer System Message-ID: <200610122036.k9CKaLJw013628@onyx.spiritone.com> Spotted on comp.os.vms No idea if this is for real or not. http://atlanta.craigslist.org/sys/219423935.html Guy wants $10,000 or "trade for working condition sanfrancisco cable car". I'm suspicious as there doesn't appear to be any history on the system, and the pictures appear to be dated. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 12 15:40:22 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:40:22 -0600 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <200610121234130916.67F73633@10.0.0.252> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452DC6D8.8040105@jetnet.ab.ca> <452E69D6.1060103@yahoo.co.uk> <452E6E49.7070904@jetnet.ab.ca> <452E8886.5060206@oldskool.org> <200610121234130916.67F73633@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <452EA836.6060606@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > woodelf wrote: > The clock frequency is derived from the 4.77 MHz system clock and is > 1.19318 MHz, derived from the 4.77 MHz processor clock. The largest > interrupt interval allowed by the 8253 CTC is 65536 counts, which gives you > 18.2 times per second. Well 20 Hz is better than 18.2. :( From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Oct 12 15:48:24 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:48:24 -0700 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <452EA836.6060606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452DC6D8.8040105@jetnet.ab.ca> <452E69D6.1060103@yahoo.co.uk> <452E6E49.7070904@jetnet.ab.ca> <452E8886.5060206@oldskool.org> <200610121234130916.67F73633@10.0.0.252> <452EA836.6060606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <452EAA18.5030005@dakotacom.net> woodelf wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> woodelf wrote: > >> The clock frequency is derived from the 4.77 MHz system clock and is >> 1.19318 MHz, derived from the 4.77 MHz processor clock. The largest >> interrupt interval allowed by the 8253 CTC is 65536 counts, which >> gives you >> 18.2 times per second. > Well 20 Hz is better than 18.2. :( Not really. Anything that *uses* those timebases would let the compiler figure out how many IRQ's, clock cycles, "whatever" are needed for a specific interval. It's not wise to write code *assuming* you'll be able to do something "simple" to get a "nice number" (e.g., 16Hz would encourage folks to think they could just use a few shifts to get "seconds" from "IRQ's", etc.) And, in some environments (*not* desktops) the jiffy IRQ may not be "periodic" (but that's another issue :> ) From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Oct 12 15:51:15 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:51:15 -0700 Subject: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest In-Reply-To: <000701c6ee36$17b23f00$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <000e01c6ee2f$1bc7cb70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <000701c6ee36$17b23f00$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <452EAAC3.6040008@mindspring.com> Jay West wrote: > Don wrote.... >> The issue is there are two different aspects of the UNIBUS that are >> being terminated: > Aha. Now that makes sense! Thank you :) > > What that means to me then is that in the /34 the 9302 should only be > plugged in to a the AB unibus out slot and NOT in a MUD slot, > otherwise, you get a funny smell I bet :) > Correct ... the M9302 terminator is a UNIBUS slot device. The difference between the AB UNIBUS vs the AB MUD (Modified UNIBUS) is that AB UNIBUS has grounds and BG1_H~BG4_H,NPG_H on pins that AB MUD uses for +20V core, -15VBB, +15VBB and some internal SPC slot parity signals. > So what about the 9312 in the /34 then. I assume it can only (no > matter HOW it's jumpered) be put in a MUD (AB) slot, never in an AB > unibus slot (Unibus in or Unibus Out). ?? You wouldn't want to put in in the UNIBUS out. You still need to terminate both ends of the bus, you want an M9302 somewhere to process SACK timeout, and you can have at most one M9312 in the system. So the only config that meets all these is M9302 in 9AB, and M9312 in 3AB. > > Then, this of course brings me back to my dearly beloved (sarcasm) > /45. In that machine, the cpu doesn't terminate anything from what I > understand, hence the 930 at the front in slot 1AB. I assume in the > /45 then, you CAN put the (appropriately jumpered) 9312 in the last > slot (unibus out), and that you don't put another 930 in that slot and > put the 9312 in a prior AB slot. Is that all correct? > This I will have to defer to someone else. The M9312 doc's indicate there are jumper wire settings (W1-W12) to allow it be in either a MUD (standard position) or for 'other UNIBUS CPUS with M9312 in place of M930'. I would assume this to mean that one of the M930s (which I assume is the 'old' M9302 without the SACK timeout logic) can be replaced by a correctly configured M9312, but you still need the other M930 at the other end of the bus. Or, just speculating here, what about an M9312 at the front of the bus, and an M9302 at the end of the bus (kinda like the 11/34 config)? This would require some research to make sure it doesn't smoke anything. Caveat emptor to be sure. > Thanks so much! > > Jay > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 12 15:55:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 13:55:50 -0700 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <452EA836.6060606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452DC6D8.8040105@jetnet.ab.ca> <452E69D6.1060103@yahoo.co.uk> <452E6E49.7070904@jetnet.ab.ca> <452E8886.5060206@oldskool.org> <200610121234130916.67F73633@10.0.0.252> <452EA836.6060606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200610121355500936.6841EEFE@10.0.0.252> On 10/12/2006 at 2:40 PM woodelf wrote: >Well 20 Hz is better than 18.2. :( For the kind of things that PC-DOS 1.0 did, 1 Hz would have probably been just fine. At any rate, there's nothing to prevent you from increasing the interrupt frequency and dividing down to 18.2 Hz using software and issuing int 0x1c yourself. Many packages did this under DOS when a finer timer resolution was needed. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 12 15:58:42 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:58:42 -0600 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 12 Oct 2006 21:26:21 -0000. <452EB2FD.7000508@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <452EB2FD.7000508 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > Richard wrote: > > I for one and glad I don't have to write complex distributed > > applications in assembly language. > > but then most applications aren't distributed, nor are they even complex at > the algorithm level - [...] This hasn't been true for applications I've worked on for quite some time. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Oct 12 16:06:02 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:06:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UniVac Factronic Computer System In-Reply-To: <200610122036.k9CKaLJw013628@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20061012210602.94381.qmail@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Spotted on comp.os.vms > > No idea if this is for real or not. > > http://atlanta.craigslist.org/sys/219423935.html > > Guy wants $10,000 or "trade for working condition > sanfrancisco cable car". > I'm suspicious as there doesn't appear to be any > history on the system, and > the pictures appear to be dated. > This must be a fraud. The machine in the pictures appears to be the specimen at the Deutsches Museum in Munich. See: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:UNIVAC_I_Factronic.jpg --Bill From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Oct 12 16:06:38 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 23:06:38 +0200 Subject: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest References: <000e01c6ee2f$1bc7cb70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP><000701c6ee36$17b23f00$6700a8c0@BILLING> <452EAAC3.6040008@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C2035A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Don North Verzonden: do 12-10-2006 22:51 Aan: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest Jay West wrote: > Don wrote.... >> The issue is there are two different aspects of the UNIBUS that are >> being terminated: > Aha. Now that makes sense! Thank you :) > > What that means to me then is that in the /34 the 9302 should only be > plugged in to a the AB unibus out slot and NOT in a MUD slot, > otherwise, you get a funny smell I bet :) > Correct ... the M9302 terminator is a UNIBUS slot device. The difference between the AB UNIBUS vs the AB MUD (Modified UNIBUS) is that AB UNIBUS has grounds and BG1_H~BG4_H,NPG_H on pins that AB MUD uses for +20V core, -15VBB, +15VBB and some internal SPC slot parity signals. > So what about the 9312 in the /34 then. I assume it can only (no > matter HOW it's jumpered) be put in a MUD (AB) slot, never in an AB > unibus slot (Unibus in or Unibus Out). ?? You wouldn't want to put in in the UNIBUS out. You still need to terminate both ends of the bus, you want an M9302 somewhere to process SACK timeout, and you can have at most one M9312 in the system. So the only config that meets all these is M9302 in 9AB, and M9312 in 3AB. > > Then, this of course brings me back to my dearly beloved (sarcasm) > /45. In that machine, the cpu doesn't terminate anything from what I > understand, hence the 930 at the front in slot 1AB. I assume in the > /45 then, you CAN put the (appropriately jumpered) 9312 in the last > slot (unibus out), and that you don't put another 930 in that slot and > put the 9312 in a prior AB slot. Is that all correct? > This I will have to defer to someone else. The M9312 doc's indicate there are jumper wire settings (W1-W12) to allow it be in either a MUD (standard position) or for 'other UNIBUS CPUS with M9312 in place of M930'. I would assume this to mean that one of the M930s (which I assume is the 'old' M9302 without the SACK timeout logic) can be replaced by a correctly configured M9312, but you still need the other M930 at the other end of the bus. Or, just speculating here, what about an M9312 at the front of the bus, and an M9302 at the end of the bus (kinda like the 11/34 config)? This would require some research to make sure it doesn't smoke anything. Caveat emptor to be sure. > Thanks so much! > > Jay > > Well, I learned a lot from this. I know that I have a working 11/35 (/40 OEM) which has an M9312 in the last slot (unibus-out). That was 3 years ago, and when I am up to inspecting the /35, I will sure check the M9312 jumpers! The 11/35 documentation mentions M930 as terminator at the "far" end, and I (in my ignorance some years ago) said, just like Jay, "hey, the M9312 is also a terminatoe, so...". The bottom line is that my 11/35 did work with the M9312 at the far end of the unibus, and that I could start the system, and enter "DL" to boot from RL02. Now, if everything was electrically correct (for example not terminating) is something I will certainly check when I get to it. thanks for all the shared information! - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 12 16:12:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:12:01 -0700 Subject: UniVac Factronic Computer System In-Reply-To: <200610122036.k9CKaLJw013628@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200610122036.k9CKaLJw013628@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200610121412010902.6850BFCB@10.0.0.252> It's a joke. The photo of the system is the same as that of the system in the Deutsches Museum in Munich: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/3/34/UNIVAC_I_Factronic.jpg (A very cool place to visit whilst you're taking in the local beer!) Cheers, Chuck On 10/12/2006 at 1:36 PM Zane H. Healy wrote: >Spotted on comp.os.vms > >No idea if this is for real or not. > >http://atlanta.craigslist.org/sys/219423935.html > >Guy wants $10,000 or "trade for working condition sanfrancisco cable car". >I'm suspicious as there doesn't appear to be any history on the system, and >the pictures appear to be dated. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 12 16:53:24 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:53:24 -0600 Subject: UniVac Factronic Computer System In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:06:02 -0700. <20061012210602.94381.qmail@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <20061012210602.94381.qmail at web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, William Maddox writes: > This must be a fraud. The machine in the pictures > appears to be the specimen at the Deutsches Museum in > Munich. See: > > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:UNIVAC_I_Factronic.jpg No doubt the pictures match up, but seriously am I the only person that doesn't have a digital camera handy and cribs other people's photos for things I own? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Oct 12 16:56:21 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:56:21 -0700 Subject: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest Message-ID: I'd like to echo Henk's thanks for the discussion. I too am learning from this as I'm actively working on a /34a and looking at a dormant /70. Interestingly the /70 has an M9312 in 1AB _before_ any of the processor boards and an M9302 (as expected) at the end of the Unibus. Thanks, John From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Oct 12 16:59:49 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:59:49 -0700 Subject: UniVac Factronic Computer System In-Reply-To: <200610122036.k9CKaLJw013628@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200610122036.k9CKaLJw013628@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <452EBAD5.5050003@msm.umr.edu> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >http://atlanta.craigslist.org/sys/219423935.html > > elsewhere claimed to be fraud: (thanks guys) I have dispatched John Bohner to respond and inspect as a serious offer this weekend if it is real. If anyone else is going to visit, and report, or if other info proves it really is not realistic, please email me off list, so I don't waste John's time. If the thing is real in any way (one manual and tape for such sounds fishy w/o fake pictures)., we will pursue it, as John owns a Univac III that is not fake. Thanks for the spotting of the listing. Jim From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 12 17:00:05 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UniVac Factronic Computer System In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Oct 12, 2006 03:53:24 PM Message-ID: <200610122200.k9CM05X6016654@onyx.spiritone.com> > > This must be a fraud. The machine in the pictures > > appears to be the specimen at the Deutsches Museum in > > Munich. See: > > > > http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:UNIVAC_I_Factronic.jpg > > No doubt the pictures match up, but seriously am I the only person > that doesn't have a digital camera handy and cribs other people's > photos for things I own? It wasn't just the photo's that made me suspicious, the way it was written had a "strange" feel to it. Zane From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Oct 12 17:16:26 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 17:16:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices In-Reply-To: <452CFF5A.6030402@arachelian.com> References: <001901c6ecf2$de7f8e20$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <452CFF5A.6030402@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Oct 2006, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Robert Borsuk wrote: > > > The interesting thing is that he will list items for bidding, then if > > they don't sell he will relist them at a higher price. He does > > eventually sell things so I guess it encourages the high prices. > > I've seen this kind of behavior before. It seems to be a new business > model. > > It works by listing and relisting the same items, or opening it as a > store and listing them always. Whenever anyone sells a similar item > that competes with the store, that store bids and buys the item, then > relists it at the higher price. Even if they don't win those items, > they'll at least drive up the prices for them to be in range with what > their store is selling, thus driving up the expected price for that item > in the market. > > The end goal is to be the only source for a set of items, and to be > always available. The high price of the items justifies their cost of > doing business (space, ebay fees, buying competing items, etc.) but of > course screws the buyers. In the long run, supposedly, they wind up > making more money by being the only source. > > That's what you're seeing. It is also done in reverse, that is, another seller will list a large number of the same or similar items as another seller at a lower price in an attempt to extort them into buying those items. I'm actually having that done to me right now. I'd been selling off some brand new telecommunications equipment at a price below wholesale at about 1 item a week. Then another seller listed 40 similar items for about half what I had been selling mine for and wanted to know what I'd offer him for them. I've lost two potential customers to him so far. Heck, I might as well mention the item numbers, as those sales are lost now anyway... The items I'd been selling are these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120038527861 Its the OEM version of the 710/711/universal mounting kit for telecom splice equipment. The other seller listed his here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110040426986 The only difference is the 3M badged version (also made by Jourdan Tech.) has a plastic case instead of a metal one, and doesn't include the mounting base for a splicer's seat/box. So far I've only lost 2 potential customers, but I may have to quit listing the kits for awhile. I really needed the cash too, as I'm liquidating to fund the engine repairs on my car and to replace a bunch of telecom/catv tools that "disappeared" (most likely stolen). -Toth From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Oct 12 17:18:56 2006 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:18:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked Message-ID: <31134218.1160691536512.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> actually we are both wrong, the macro was used to make the call external if needed. The near declaration was required to tell the assembler what addressing to use. If the label was in the module being assembled, then the assembler knew what size to use. -----Original Message----- >From: Chuck Guzis >Sent: Oct 12, 2006 4:07 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: MSDOS Source code leaked > >On 10/12/2006 at 3:34 PM Steve Thatcher wrote: > >>invoke is a macro that allows for handling small code model versus large >>code model... > >The INVOKE macro cited merely declares the target of the call to be NEAR if >not already defined. > >By the time MASM 6 (aka ML) came out, extended INVOKE was well internalized >into MASM--and allowed parameter passing (as well as simplified segment >definitions, procedure prototypes, procedure-local labels and a host of >other worthwhile features). But this was just a formalization of what many >programmers were already doing via macros. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Oct 12 17:25:04 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 17:25:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: What the hell -- CRAZY prices In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Oct 2006, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 11/10/06 07:56, "Marvin Johnston" wrote: > >> From: "Evan Koblentz" > >> > >> http://stores.ebay.com/Computer-Marketing-Services > >> > >> I found some interesting things to buy, but then saw the prices... > >> not only are they ASTRONOMICAL but the seller lists almost every > >> item, even ordinary keyboards, as "Very Rare"... I wanted a Canon > >> X-07 and a Toshiba T100 but he posted them at $299 and $399 > >> respectively. What the hell!?!?!? > > > > Okay, I got curious to see if he was selling anything. Checking all of > > his listings going back to those that closed a month ago, not a single > > item has been sold. This starts to restore my faith in the human race > > again :). I didn't check to see if they had a website and if they are > > using Ebay as inexpensive advertising to divert people to their > > website. > > Nice to see that my WOW! Page is still pertinent in this day and age, it > was originally written back when ebay was still a pup. If anyone needs > it translating into US English let me know :) > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/museum-wow.php I remember seeing that before but I'd forgotten where. Another seller on eBay was trying to sell a TRS-80 Model 3 for $1,500 last week. It was item # 190039593853. I actually sent him a message and told him what I'd paid for my "original" Model 3 years back and got a heated response. A few more messages later, I see he lowered the price. Its now relisted as # 190040639928. If you notice the high and only bidder's registration date, it sure looks suspicious. I figure its a shill bid. -Toth From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Oct 12 17:29:05 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:29:05 -0700 Subject: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <452EC1B1.1060503@mindspring.com> John A. Dundas III wrote: > I'd like to echo Henk's thanks for the discussion. I too am learning > from this as I'm actively working on a /34a and looking at a dormant /70. > > Interestingly the /70 has an M9312 in 1AB _before_ any of the > processor boards and an M9302 (as expected) at the end of the Unibus. > > Thanks, > John > I believe this is one of the supported configurations, assuming the original installer set all the W1..W12 correctly on the M9312. The config manual and prints for the M9312 allows for 11/70 usage, so an M9312 on the CPU side (near the BGx drivers) with the W1..W5 jumpers *IN* provides the necessary 180ohm pullup near the driver. The rest of the UNIBUS is terminated with 180/390. The M9302 at the end of the bus terminates all the UNIBUS signals to 180/390 including the end-of-the-line BGx/NPG signals (and does SACK detect timeout). It's probably the case 11/45 usage would be very similar to the 11/70 config since the '45 and the '70 are really the same basic design. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 12 17:45:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:45:38 -0700 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <31134218.1160691536512.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <31134218.1160691536512.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200610121545380244.68A67268@10.0.0.252> On 10/12/2006 at 6:18 PM Steve Thatcher wrote: >actually we are both wrong, the macro was used to make the call external >if needed. The near declaration was required to tell the assembler what >addressing to use. If the label was in the module being assembled, then >the assembler knew what size to use. Let's see--I said: >>The INVOKE macro cited merely declares the target of the call to be NEAR >>if not already defined. Which is pretty much the same thing--right? If the symbol's not already defined (at pass 2), then it doesn't exist in the same module and is therefore defined as an external NEAR by the macro. If the symbol was defined later in the same module, it would be defined as of pass 2 (hence, the IF2 conditional--a plain old IF would cause serious problems by defining the symbol during pass 1, only to have the darned thing crop up later). If the CALL target needed is FAR, it would have to be defined as such. Later versions of MASM use the PROTO definition to define things in advance, not only with regard to the NEAR or FAR call distance, but also as to the type and number of arguments. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 12 17:46:27 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20061012154559.C58076@shell.lmi.net> > http://www.nurs.or.jp.nyud.net:8080/~nnn/MS-DOS.6.0.Source.Code.zip That site seems to be down now From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 12 17:50:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:50:15 -0600 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:46:27 -0700. <20061012154559.C58076@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20061012154559.C58076 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > > http://www.nurs.or.jp.nyud.net:8080/~nnn/MS-DOS.6.0.Source.Code.zip > > That site seems to be down now I was able to download it just now after reading your mail. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 12 17:51:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:51:34 -0700 Subject: UniVac Factronic Computer System In-Reply-To: <452EBAD5.5050003@msm.umr.edu> References: <200610122036.k9CKaLJw013628@onyx.spiritone.com> <452EBAD5.5050003@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200610121551340590.68ABE25F@10.0.0.252> Do these photos remind you of anything? http://www-db.stanford.edu/pub/voy/museum/pictures/display/basement.htm --Chuck From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Oct 12 18:01:39 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:01:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UniVac Factronic Computer System In-Reply-To: <452EBAD5.5050003@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20061012230139.46814.qmail@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, Jim. I exchanged a bit of email with the seller, and he confirms it's all a joke. Seems like he's got a bet going with a colleague over how long this ad will last. I don't think he expects anyone to take it seriously, and he doesn't seem to be out to rip anyone off. I did mention to him that there are serious collectors of this kind of material, that sometimes really old computers *do* turn up, so that it's not quite so blindingly obvious a joke as he probably intended. --Bill From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Thu Oct 12 18:05:11 2006 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 00:05:11 +0100 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 In-Reply-To: <200610121551340590.68ABE25F@10.0.0.252> References: <200610122036.k9CKaLJw013628@onyx.spiritone.com> <452EBAD5.5050003@msm.umr.edu> <200610121551340590.68ABE25F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <452ECA27.9060501@retrobbs.org> Anyone know what happened to Oregon Software.... or where to find Pascal/2 for RSTS/E. I want it for my PDP emulator... because it is the language I learned to program with. None of that String bollox, real men use Array[1.80] of Char; From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 12 18:28:43 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 17:28:43 -0600 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 In-Reply-To: <452ECA27.9060501@retrobbs.org> References: <200610122036.k9CKaLJw013628@onyx.spiritone.com> <452EBAD5.5050003@msm.umr.edu> <200610121551340590.68ABE25F@10.0.0.252> <452ECA27.9060501@retrobbs.org> Message-ID: <452ECFAB.6080906@jetnet.ab.ca> Mark Firestone wrote: > None of that String bollox, real men use Array[1.80] of Char; Real men pack 6 bit chars into 12,18,36,48,60 bit words. :) From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 12 18:32:57 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:32:57 -0700 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 Message-ID: http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/discimages/rk05/omsiPascal2.1.dsk.gz May work under the RT RTS From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Oct 12 18:31:20 2006 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:31:20 -0700 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <200610121545380244.68A67268@10.0.0.252> References: <31134218.1160691536512.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <200610121545380244.68A67268@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061012162957.02373870@earthlink.net> let's see - I said that the external was the important declaration. The assembler would declare it unreachable if the symbol did not exist in the current module unless you used external, SO it is not the same thing... At 03:45 PM 10/12/2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 10/12/2006 at 6:18 PM Steve Thatcher wrote: > > >actually we are both wrong, the macro was used to make the call external > >if needed. The near declaration was required to tell the assembler what > >addressing to use. If the label was in the module being assembled, then > >the assembler knew what size to use. > >Let's see--I said: > > >>The INVOKE macro cited merely declares the target of the call to be NEAR > >>if not already defined. > >Which is pretty much the same thing--right? If the symbol's not already >defined (at pass 2), then it doesn't exist in the same module and is >therefore defined as an external NEAR by the macro. > >If the symbol was defined later in the same module, it would be defined as >of pass 2 (hence, the IF2 conditional--a plain old IF would cause serious >problems by defining the symbol during pass 1, only to have the darned >thing crop up later). > >If the CALL target needed is FAR, it would have to be defined as such. > >Later versions of MASM use the PROTO definition to define things in >advance, not only with regard to the NEAR or FAR call distance, but also as >to the type and number of arguments. > >Cheers, >Chuck From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Oct 12 18:33:02 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 19:33:02 -0400 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 In-Reply-To: <452ECA27.9060501@retrobbs.org> References: <200610121551340590.68ABE25F@10.0.0.252> <200610122036.k9CKaLJw013628@onyx.spiritone.com> <452EBAD5.5050003@msm.umr.edu> <200610121551340590.68ABE25F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061012193056.03949278@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Mark Firestone may have mentioned these words: >Anyone know what happened to Oregon Software.... or where to find Pascal/2 >for RSTS/E. I want it for my PDP emulator... because it is the language I >learned to program with. > >None of that String bollox, real men use Array[1.80] of Char; Real men use (at least in 6809 - insert your favorite CPU here): str80 RMB 80 ; here's my string and actually knows what to do with it... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Oct 12 18:36:33 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 19:36:33 -0400 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 13 Oct 2006 00:05:11 BST." <452ECA27.9060501@retrobbs.org> Message-ID: <200610122336.k9CNaX7b020770@mwave.heeltoe.com> Mark Firestone wrote: >Anyone know what happened to Oregon Software.... or where to find >Pascal/2 for RSTS/E. I want it for my PDP emulator... because it is the >language I learned to program with. mmm. I used that at lot ('back in the day') under tsx on 11/23's. It was a nice product but I seem to recall the lack of ability to write libraries was a pain. I don't think I have any backup tapes with it, however. I'll check. -brad From fryers at gmail.com Thu Oct 12 18:43:00 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 00:43:00 +0100 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 In-Reply-To: <452ECFAB.6080906@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200610122036.k9CKaLJw013628@onyx.spiritone.com> <452EBAD5.5050003@msm.umr.edu> <200610121551340590.68ABE25F@10.0.0.252> <452ECA27.9060501@retrobbs.org> <452ECFAB.6080906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Heya, On 10/13/06, woodelf wrote: > Mark Firestone wrote: > > > None of that String bollox, real men use Array[1.80] of Char; > Real men pack 6 bit chars into 12,18,36,48,60 bit words. :) What ever happened to 24 bit words, or is this an easy case? Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 12 18:36:19 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 00:36:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <200610121234130916.67F73633@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 12, 6 12:34:13 pm Message-ID: > As a curious aside, the trimmer near the 14 MHz crystal on the 5150 is > intended not to adjust the time-of-day clock accuracy, but rather to adjust > color rendition with the CGA card. But only if you're using a composite NTSC monitor (the colour subcarrier -- 3.58-ish MHz -- is 1/4 of the master clock freqwuncy, of course). On a TTL RGB monitor, like the 5153, the trimemr does nothing. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 12 18:57:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 16:57:34 -0700 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20061012162957.02373870@earthlink.net> References: <31134218.1160691536512.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <200610121545380244.68A67268@10.0.0.252> <7.0.1.0.2.20061012162957.02373870@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200610121657340622.68E84EE7@10.0.0.252> On 10/12/2006 at 4:31 PM Steve Thatcher wrote: >let's see - I said that the external was the important declaration. >The assembler would declare it unreachable if the symbol did not >exist in the current module unless you used external, SO it is not >the same thing... The difference eludes me. Maybe we're just trying to say the same thing. If a call target isn't defined by pass 2, it isn't in the module. If the symbol didn't exist in the current module after pass 2, the assembler wouldn't declare it as unreachable; it would declare it as "undefined". EXTERN declares it at pass 2 time and solves the problem--at least as far as the assembly is concerned. If the symbol name is a typo, then there will be a LINK error. Note that you can't do this in MASM 6 or 7 native mode. IF2 isn't allowed unless you specify MASM 5 compatiblity (/Zm). Cheers, Chuck From kelly at catcorner.org Thu Oct 12 18:59:58 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 19:59:58 -0400 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30361AE@MEOW.catcorner.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mark Firestone > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 7:05 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 > > > Anyone know what happened to Oregon Software.... or where to find > Pascal/2 for RSTS/E. I want it for my PDP emulator... > because it is the > language I learned to program with. > > None of that String bollox, real men use Array[1.80] of Char; I have it for Xenix on the TRS-80 model 16, but I don't think that helps much. Kelly From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 12 19:21:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 17:21:11 -0700 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200610121721110220.68FDEC36@10.0.0.252> On 10/13/2006 at 12:36 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >But only if you're using a composite NTSC monitor (the colour subcarrier >-- 3.58-ish MHz -- is 1/4 of the master clock freqwuncy, of course). On >a TTL RGB monitor, like the 5153, the trimemr does nothing. Just relating what the notation is on the 5150 schematic. Most folks think it's meant for correcting the time-of-day clock. Cheers, Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Oct 12 21:08:57 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 21:08:57 -0500 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Thu, 12 Oct 2006 15:46:27 -0700. <20061012154559.C58076@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200610130100.k9D10w7w011235@hosting.monisys.ca> >> That site seems to be down now > I was able to download it just now after reading your mail. While I wouldn't be surprised if it does get shut down - because of all the publicity that it's getting, just so everyone knows - this archive is not something new ... it has been around in various forms for quite a few years... -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 12 20:32:51 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 18:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061012183132.C65195@shell.lmi.net> > > > http://www.nurs.or.jp.nyud.net:8080/~nnn/MS-DOS.6.0.Source.Code.zip > > That site seems to be down now On Thu, 12 Oct 2006, Richard wrote: > I was able to download it just now after reading your mail. IE and Firefox choked on the URL, but with minor changes, it works. From THX1138 at dakotacom.net Thu Oct 12 21:56:21 2006 From: THX1138 at dakotacom.net (Don) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 19:56:21 -0700 Subject: Sun SCSI cables Message-ID: <452F0055.3000000@dakotacom.net> Hi, I posted this to the rescue list but have had no response :< So, I'll try again, here... ------ I've been trying to move my various peripherals into 611-type cases. Hopefully, get things a bit better organized. These stack nicely with ~12" (WIDE SCSI) cables to daisy chain from the OUT of one to the IN of the next. But, some *other* cases aren't quite as well-behaved. For example, stacking anything atop a 711 case requires a slightly longer cable to tether the 711 to the 611. Likewise, a 622 (?) needs a "cable stretcher" to span the gap to an adjacent 711/611/etc. Did Sun make *slightly* longer wide cables? Like 18"? Obviously, I want to use short cables to keep the chain as short as possible... And, can anyone suggest a good source for the ~12" and similar cables? Is there anything else I should be wary of? Thanks! --don From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Oct 12 22:51:55 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 23:51:55 -0400 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <452F0D5B.3030508@atarimuseum.com> Surprisingly.... its still up. I'd figured the gates-goons-quad would've shut it down within minutes, even something as old as Dos 6.0 You'd figured they'd never allow anything to leak out of their fortress of solitude. Anyone watching the progress of reactos.com ??? A Windows XP clone. Curt Jim Leonard wrote: > I'm not sure if this is old news, but the MSDOS 6.0 code was leaked; a > copy should still be available at > http://www.nurs.or.jp.nyud.net:8080/~nnn/MS-DOS.6.0.Source.Code.zip > for the curious. All x86 assembler, of course. From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Oct 12 22:59:37 2006 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 20:59:37 -0700 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <200610121657340622.68E84EE7@10.0.0.252> References: <31134218.1160691536512.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <200610121545380244.68A67268@10.0.0.252> <7.0.1.0.2.20061012162957.02373870@earthlink.net> <200610121657340622.68E84EE7@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061012185210.021b6898@earthlink.net> most all the assemblers I have worked with required explicit declarations for external. The assembler could certainly assume external if not found, but it was not typical. At 04:57 PM 10/12/2006, you wrote: >On 10/12/2006 at 4:31 PM Steve Thatcher wrote: > > >let's see - I said that the external was the important declaration. > >The assembler would declare it unreachable if the symbol did not > >exist in the current module unless you used external, SO it is not > >the same thing... > >The difference eludes me. Maybe we're just trying to say the same thing. > >If a call target isn't defined by pass 2, it isn't in the module. If the >symbol didn't exist in the current module after pass 2, the assembler >wouldn't declare it as unreachable; it would declare it as "undefined". >EXTERN declares it at pass 2 time and solves the problem--at least as far >as the assembly is concerned. If the symbol name is a typo, then there >will be a LINK error. > >Note that you can't do this in MASM 6 or 7 native mode. IF2 isn't allowed >unless you specify MASM 5 compatiblity (/Zm). > >Cheers, >Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 12 23:19:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 21:19:07 -0700 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20061012185210.021b6898@earthlink.net> References: <31134218.1160691536512.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <200610121545380244.68A67268@10.0.0.252> <7.0.1.0.2.20061012162957.02373870@earthlink.net> <200610121657340622.68E84EE7@10.0.0.252> <7.0.1.0.2.20061012185210.021b6898@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200610122119070853.69D7C2A6@10.0.0.252> On 10/12/2006 at 8:59 PM Steve Thatcher wrote: >most all the assemblers I have worked with required explicit >declarations for external. The assembler could certainly assume >external if not found, but it was not typical. ...and that's why I think MASM 6 and 7 are heads above MASM 5 and its predecessors. For instance: .model small,c .code Flip proto Hither:word Flap proto Yonder:word Flip proc Hither:word invoke Flap,Hither Flip endp end "Flap" is automatically assumed to be external. Simplifies life so much... Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 12 23:29:37 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 22:29:37 -0600 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 In-Reply-To: References: <200610122036.k9CKaLJw013628@onyx.spiritone.com> <452EBAD5.5050003@msm.umr.edu> <200610121551340590.68ABE25F@10.0.0.252> <452ECA27.9060501@retrobbs.org> <452ECFAB.6080906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <452F1631.8020008@jetnet.ab.ca> Simon Fryer wrote: > Heya, > What ever happened to 24 bit words, or is this an easy case? That is 3 8 bit char's. :) I was thinking of Dec's machines and rememberd other brands later. While 24 bit computers were made, I can't think of any off hand. > Simon From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Oct 12 23:33:31 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2006 21:33:31 -0700 Subject: UniVac Factronic Computer System -- update In-Reply-To: <20061012230139.46814.qmail@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20061012230139.46814.qmail@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <452F171B.9070602@msm.umr.edu> William Maddox wrote: >Hi, Jim. > >I exchanged a bit of email with the seller, and he >confirms it's all a joke. Seems like he's got a bet >going with a colleague over how long this ad will >last. > Too bad. I spoke with Billy Pettit about it, and he says there was both a Univac 1101, and a Univac 1 available in Atlanta at one point for the taking and there was a three way "you take it, no you take it" finger point situation between University of Mississippi, Lockheed and some other school when it was decomissioned. He says he actually got the documentation from such a system when it went begging. So there was more than just smoke to a story of a Univac in Atlanta. Oh well, one cant let things go unexplored. We have at least two improbable finds from such listings, and getting there with the means to move sometimes is the difference between scrapheap and not. Jim From fryers at gmail.com Fri Oct 13 03:12:36 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:12:36 +0100 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 In-Reply-To: <452F1631.8020008@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200610122036.k9CKaLJw013628@onyx.spiritone.com> <452EBAD5.5050003@msm.umr.edu> <200610121551340590.68ABE25F@10.0.0.252> <452ECA27.9060501@retrobbs.org> <452ECFAB.6080906@jetnet.ab.ca> <452F1631.8020008@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Hey All, On 10/13/06, woodelf wrote: > Simon Fryer wrote: > > Heya, > > What ever happened to 24 bit words, or is this an easy case? > That is 3 8 bit char's. :) Or 4 x 6 bit characters. Certain parts of RTS/VOS on a Harris H1200 used a truncated ACSII to fit 4 characters into a word. > I was thinking of Dec's machines and rememberd other brands later. > While 24 bit computers were made, I can't think of any off hand. Ahh. The only reason I know anything about the H1200 is that I worked on one. As far as I know, it is still in production use! Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Oct 13 06:33:06 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:33:06 +0200 Subject: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest In-Reply-To: <452EC1B1.1060503@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488021@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don North > Sent: vrijdag 13 oktober 2006 0:29 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest > > John A. Dundas III wrote: > > I'd like to echo Henk's thanks for the discussion. I too > > am learning from this as I'm actively working on a /34a and > > looking at a dormant /70. > > > > Interestingly the /70 has an M9312 in 1AB _before_ any of the > > processor boards and an M9302 (as expected) at the end of > > the Unibus. > > > > Thanks, > > John > > > I believe this is one of the supported configurations, > assuming the original installer set all the W1..W12 correctly > on the M9312. The config manual and prints for the M9312 > allows for 11/70 usage, so an M9312 on the CPU side (near the > BGx drivers) with the W1..W5 jumpers *IN* provides the > necessary 180ohm pullup near the driver. > The rest of the UNIBUS is terminated with 180/390. > > The M9302 at the end of the bus terminates all the UNIBUS > signals to 180/390 including the end-of-the-line BGx/NPG > signals (and does SACK detect timeout). > > It's probably the case 11/45 usage would be very similar to > the 11/70 config since the '45 and the '70 are really the > same basic design. > John, before you power-up your 11/70, check the position of the M9312 ... My PDP-11/70 has the M9312 also in slot #1 ... But, in contrast to all other UNIBUS PDP-11's (that I know), the M9312 in the 11/70 is *not* in position A-B of slot #1, but in position E-F! I will verify with the print set and if it is indeed position E-F, I will make a note on my website to point this out. I can't say anything about the 11/45, I don't have that machine in my collection (yet...). - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 13 08:40:31 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:40:31 +0000 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <452F0D5B.3030508@atarimuseum.com> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452F0D5B.3030508@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <452F974F.3010703@yahoo.co.uk> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Anyone watching the progress of reactos.com ??? A Windows XP clone. I did check that out a while ago - I'm a habitual wine user though, which for my purposes achieves the same goals (plus means I can run windows apps alongside linux; IIRC reactos is a full bootable OS) And as I said in another email, freedos/dosemu does a good job of the DOS side of things under linux - the only annoyance was that it blocks direct access to the floppy drive hardware (which is hardly surprising, though) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 13 08:43:42 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:43:42 +0000 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <452F980E.3070608@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> As a curious aside, the trimmer near the 14 MHz crystal on the 5150 is >> intended not to adjust the time-of-day clock accuracy, but rather to adjust >> color rendition with the CGA card. > > But only if you're using a composite NTSC monitor (the colour subcarrier > -- 3.58-ish MHz -- is 1/4 of the master clock freqwuncy, of course). On > a TTL RGB monitor, like the 5153, the trimemr does nothing. That's interesting, though. IBM must have believed that the 5150 would be a global product and I'd expect that was the plan all along - so why put circuitry on there for one market only? From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Oct 13 08:12:03 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:12:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <452F0D5B.3030508@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20061013131203.2B77558545@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Curt @ Atari Museum > > Anyone watching the progress of reactos.com ??? A Windows XP clone. I just tried to, but the webpage seems to be down.. :( Cheers, Bryan From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 13 08:19:24 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:19:24 -0400 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <452F980E.3070608@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200610131317.k9DDHU8t064743@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:43:42 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: >That's interesting, though. IBM must have believed that the 5150 would be a >global product and I'd expect that was the plan all along - so why put >circuitry on there for one market only? I do not think there was ever was a PAL version of the CGA card. As far as I know the CGA card was the only one dependant on the base clock freq being right on. or It would loose color burst. I always thought the 4.77mhz was chosen because it could also be used as the clock ref for the video. THe other Bob From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Oct 13 08:18:29 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:18:29 -0400 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <20061013131203.2B77558545@mail.wordstock.com> References: <452F0D5B.3030508@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061013091746.04a09368@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Bryan Pope may have mentioned these words: >And thusly were the wise words spake by Curt @ Atari Museum > > > > Anyone watching the progress of reactos.com ??? A Windows XP clone. > >I just tried to, but the webpage seems to be down.. :( Try www.reactos.org. That one works. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 13 09:52:09 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:52:09 -0500 Subject: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest References: <000e01c6ee2f$1bc7cb70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP><000701c6ee36$17b23f00$6700a8c0@BILLING><452EAAC3.6040008@mindspring.com> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C2035A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <00c201c6eed7$2d623cf0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Henck wrote.... > I know that I have a working 11/35 (/40 OEM) which has an M9312 > in the last slot (unibus-out). That was 3 years ago, and when I am > up to inspecting the /35, I will sure check the M9312 jumpers! > The 11/35 documentation mentions M930 as terminator at the "far" > end, and I (in my ignorance some years ago) said, just like Jay, "hey, > the M9312 is also a terminatoe, so...". The bottom line is that my 11/35 > did work with the M9312 at the far end of the unibus, and that I could > start the system, and enter "DL" to boot from RL02. > Now, if everything was electrically correct (for example not terminating) > is something I will certainly check when I get to it. Henk, I believe you are right. The /35 doesn't have the cpu doing this ("partial") termination like the /04 and /34 does I don't think. So your situation for termination is likely to be more similar to mine in the /45... where you typically have a M930 in slot 1AB, and then another M930 in the last unibus out AB slot. To install a M9312 in one of those type of systems, I believe you can replace one of the M930's with the 9312. Given that my background was the /45, I found the situation with the /34 most confusing - hence my post to the list. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 13 09:54:10 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:54:10 -0500 Subject: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488021@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <00c501c6eed7$735f69d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Henck wrote.... > John, before you power-up your 11/70, check the position of the > M9312 ... My PDP-11/70 has the M9312 also in slot #1 ... > But, in contrast to all other UNIBUS PDP-11's (that I know), > the M9312 in the 11/70 is *not* in position A-B of slot #1, but > in position E-F! Odd. Just goes to show... ASSumptions (like I would have made if I got a 11/70) can be bad ;) Speaking of an 11/70... I happened to find in my collection one of the floating point option boards for an 11/70. I have no use whatsoever for it. Anyone want it for a trade? Jay From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Oct 13 09:54:03 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 07:54:03 -0700 Subject: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488021@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488021@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: Trimmed the messages a bit... At 1:33 PM +0200 10/13/06, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don North >> Sent: vrijdag 13 oktober 2006 0:29 >> To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest >> > > John A. Dundas III wrote: > > > Interestingly the /70 has an M9312 in 1AB _before_ any of the >> > processor boards and an M9302 (as expected) at the end of >> > the Unibus. >> > >> > Thanks, > > > John >> > >John, before you power-up your 11/70, check the position of the >M9312 ... My PDP-11/70 has the M9312 also in slot #1 ... >But, in contrast to all other UNIBUS PDP-11's (that I know), >the M9312 in the 11/70 is *not* in position A-B of slot #1, but >in position E-F! I will verify with the print set and if it is >indeed position E-F, I will make a note on my website to point >this out. Henk, I noticed this in your pictures. Interesting. I have the print set here too and I'll look also. While I personally haven't powered the machine up yet, I'm fairly certain it was running just prior to my acquisition from a former DEC FE. [I don't mean to implicate him if indeed the module should be in 1EF as it's possible the machine wasn't working and/or I might have inadvertently moved a few things around.] John From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 13 10:07:51 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:07:51 -0500 Subject: /34 & ba11-k regulator allocation? Message-ID: <000501c6eed9$5af9ebc0$6700a8c0@BILLING> I'm picking different pieces of various leftover /34 systems to make mine. I have a question about the regulators in the back of the /34's ba11k. Exactly what regulators are required as a minimum for a /34 that is just a dd11-pk with no expansion? Assume just a processor, one memory board, RL11 controller, one DL11W... nothing heavy. I have one ba11 with regulators in 4 positions and one with regulators in positions 1-3. However, one had a RK11D which I'm removing, one had a DD11-DK addition which I won't be using... and I would prefer to remove regulators that won't be used so they can sit on a shelf as spares and not be powered up all the time. I've looked in the 11/34 user manual as well as the ba11k technical manual and I can't seem to put together this info. Can someone point me in the right direction? Jay West From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Oct 13 10:25:11 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 08:25:11 -0700 Subject: /34 & ba11-k regulator allocation? In-Reply-To: <000501c6eed9$5af9ebc0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <000501c6eed9$5af9ebc0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: Jay, At 10:07 AM -0500 10/13/06, Jay West wrote: >Exactly what regulators are required as a minimum for a /34 that is >just a dd11-pk with no expansion? Assume just a processor, one >memory board, RL11 controller, one DL11W... nothing heavy. A timely question as several of us seem to be working on this model currently. [Thanks to Julian, Tim, Don, Al, Henk, and all others that have contributed to my own success...] Others will no doubt correct my errors but... I believe for the configuration above one H744 (position 2) IS required. I believe a H745 (position 1) IS also required. A second H744 (position 3) does NOT appear to be required based on your configuration above. I'm not clear whether or not a H754 is required in position 4. My take is that regulator is used primarily for core memory (+20, -5), though I could be wrong. Note that there are other regulators that can be used in place of the H744. John From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 13 11:02:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:02:51 -0700 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 In-Reply-To: References: <200610122036.k9CKaLJw013628@onyx.spiritone.com> <452EBAD5.5050003@msm.umr.edu> <200610121551340590.68ABE25F@10.0.0.252> <452ECA27.9060501@retrobbs.org> <452ECFAB.6080906@jetnet.ab.ca> <452F1631.8020008@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200610130902510764.6C5C0AAE@10.0.0.252> On 10/13/2006 at 9:12 AM Simon Fryer wrote: > >> I was thinking of Dec's machines and rememberd other brands later. >> While 24 bit computers were made, I can't think of any off hand. CDC "Lower 3000" series (3100, 3200, 3300, 3500) were 24-bit/6 bit character systems as well as the earlier 924. SDS 920/930/940, Honeywelll DDP-24. Several early military computers also used a 24-bit word. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 13 11:23:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 09:23:21 -0700 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <452F0D5B.3030508@atarimuseum.com> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452F0D5B.3030508@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200610130923210882.6C6ECFD5@10.0.0.252> On 10/12/2006 at 11:51 PM Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >Surprisingly.... its still up. I'd figured the gates-goons-quad >would've shut it down within minutes, even something as old as Dos >6.0 You'd figured they'd never allow anything to leak out of their >fortress of solitude. So, where's the source for Windows 3.1? :) Cheers, Chuck From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Oct 13 11:39:01 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 12:39:01 -0400 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <200610130923210882.6C6ECFD5@10.0.0.252> References: <452F0D5B.3030508@atarimuseum.com> <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452F0D5B.3030508@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061013123818.04a001c8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >On 10/12/2006 at 11:51 PM Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > >Surprisingly.... its still up. I'd figured the gates-goons-quad > >would've shut it down within minutes, even something as old as Dos > >6.0 You'd figured they'd never allow anything to leak out of their > >fortress of solitude. > >So, where's the source for Windows 3.1? :) Still being used in Windows XP, so it's not ontopic yet... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Oct 13 11:45:44 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 12:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061013123818.04a001c8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20061013164544.04E5D5858B@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Roger Merchberger > > Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: > >On 10/12/2006 at 11:51 PM Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > > >Surprisingly.... its still up. I'd figured the gates-goons-quad > > >would've shut it down within minutes, even something as old as Dos > > >6.0 You'd figured they'd never allow anything to leak out of their > > >fortress of solitude. > > > >So, where's the source for Windows 3.1? :) > > Still being used in Windows XP, so it's not ontopic yet... ;-) > I wonder if anyone has modded (if it is even possible) Windows 3.1 to look like XP? Or the opposite to XP? Cheers, Bryan From ics65 at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 13 11:47:35 2006 From: ics65 at sbcglobal.net (George Wiegand) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 12:47:35 -0400 Subject: Diablo Series 30 Drives Message-ID: <004101c6eee7$491a1520$b68adf45@ics> Hey folks, There's at least one Diablo Series 30 Disk Drive on Government Liquidation. http://web.govliquidation.com/auction/search?searchId=33896&tid=DC00000036 From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 13 12:26:09 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <20061013164544.04E5D5858B@mail.wordstock.com> from Bryan Pope at "Oct 13, 6 12:45:44 pm" Message-ID: <200610131726.k9DHQ9UQ017900@floodgap.com> > I wonder if anyone has modded (if it is even possible) Windows 3.1 > to look like XP? Or the opposite to XP? Well, there was Calmira that made Win3.1 look like 95 (I have it on my 486 utility laptop). I'm sure the converse has been done, seems like an obvious kneeslapper hack. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver. -------------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 13 12:41:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:41:34 -0700 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <200610131726.k9DHQ9UQ017900@floodgap.com> References: <200610131726.k9DHQ9UQ017900@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200610131041340243.6CB66F88@10.0.0.252> On 10/13/2006 at 10:26 AM Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Well, there was Calmira that made Win3.1 look like 95 (I have it on my 486 >utility laptop). I'm sure the converse has been done, seems like an obvious >kneeslapper hack. In theory, anything's possible, given enough code. Just look at Win32S--or the bunch of code that supports NT miniport drivers in 98. Cheers, Chuck From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Oct 13 12:47:06 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:47:06 -0700 Subject: /34 & ba11-k regulator allocation? In-Reply-To: References: <000501c6eed9$5af9ebc0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <452FD11A.5070206@mindspring.com> John A. Dundas III wrote: > Jay, > > At 10:07 AM -0500 10/13/06, Jay West wrote: >> Exactly what regulators are required as a minimum for a /34 that is >> just a dd11-pk with no expansion? Assume just a processor, one memory >> board, RL11 controller, one DL11W... nothing heavy. > > A timely question as several of us seem to be working on this model > currently. [Thanks to Julian, Tim, Don, Al, Henk, and all others that > have contributed to my own success...] Others will no doubt correct > my errors but... > > I believe for the configuration above one H744 (position 2) IS > required. I believe a H745 (position 1) IS also required. A second > H744 (position 3) does NOT appear to be required based on your > configuration above. I'm not clear whether or not a H754 is required > in position 4. My take is that regulator is used primarily for core > memory (+20, -5), though I could be wrong. > > Note that there are other regulators that can be used in place of the > H744. John is exactly correct in his analysis WRT the H744 +5V in slot 2 and H745 -15V in slot 1. The second H744 in slot 3 is not needed unless you have expansion backplanes. The H754 +20V/-5V in slot 4 is only required for core memory. Later generation BA11-K series boxes allowed for a battery backup regulator that would go into slot 4 (for MOS memory) in place of the core voltage regulator. The H744 is a +5V/25A module; the later generation H7441 is +5V/32A and is plug compatible. Technically there is an upgraded power distribution board (54-something-YA) that is supposed to be swapped in when the H7441s replace the H744s (-YA has beefier wiring for +5V distribution) but this is only an issue if you are pushing the limit on an H7441. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Oct 13 12:47:16 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 19:47:16 +0200 Subject: /34 & ba11-k regulator allocation? References: <000501c6eed9$5af9ebc0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20364@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > I'm picking different pieces of various leftover /34 systems to make mine. > I have a question about the regulators in the back of the /34's ba11k. > > Exactly what regulators are required as a minimum for a /34 that is just > a dd11-pk with no expansion? Assume just a processor, one memory board, > RL11 controller, one DL11W... nothing heavy. I have one ba11 with > regulators in 4 positions and one with regulators in positions 1-3. > However, one had a RK11D which I'm removing, one had a DD11-DK addition > which I won't be using... and I would prefer to remove regulators that > won't be used so they can sit on a shelf as spares and not be powered > up all the time. > > I've looked in the 11/34 user manual as well as the ba11k technical > manual and I can't seem to put together this info. Can someone point > me in the right direction? > > Jay West Hi Jay, I copied your mail to my editor, to prevent a time-out on my connection to the e-mail server at work (I'm at home now). First, I can scan on Monday the manual "PDP1134A power system description" (EK-1134A-TM-002) which probably has everything in it you ask. Check if it is available on bitsavers. If not, I'll scan it ... If you look to the BA11-K box, the first PSU (at the side where the 11/34 CPU board are) is the H745 (-15V/10A). +15V comes from the "fixed" part which also has the transformer. IIRC, the H745 *needs* the +15 to operate. Every BA11-K box I've seen has the H745 in the first position. I do not know which modules need the -15V, you could look that up. The M7856 which is common as console interface (20mA current loop or EIA, RS-232) will very likely need the -15V. The 2nd PSU, next to the H745 is the +5V PSU. It can be the H744 (25A.) or the H7441 (32A.) The H744 is fine for the system that you describe. If you need to draw more power (check my website for a power calculation) you can install the H7441, but you must check the distribution panel. The power distribution board 5410864-0 is for the H744. Extra wiring is on the 5410864-YA to support the H7441. (In fact the -YA is also needed to support MOS memory with battery backup). The 3rd PSU (in the "other" half) is also a H744 or H7441. The 4th PSU (at the other outside of the box) can be the H754 (+20V/8A. and -5V/1A.) for core-based systems, or the H785 regulator for MOS memory. The 2nd PSU (+5V) delivers +5V power to the DD11-PK only. The 3rd PSU (+5V) delivers +5V to all other backplanes. This is of course if you put the DD11-PK at the right side, and connect it to the correct sockets on the power distribution panel. The DD11-PK backplane has a few jumpers to allow the MOS memory to be powered separately from the other logic. If you do have battery backup (probably not) the jumpers to +5B, +15B and -15B must be cut, otherwise they must be installed, connected to +5, +15 and -15. The jumpers short the "B" busses to the normal power rails. The power distribution panel 5410864-0 does not have the +5B, +15B and -15B connections as it was not designed for the BBU option. So that is an easy method to recognize which power distribution panel you have ... So, to summarize, the +5V PSU in position #2 is only for the CPU backplane, and the other +5V PSU in position #3 powers the other backplanes (probably one 9-slot DD11-DK and one 4-slot DD11-CK or dedicated functions backplanes like RK611 and RK11-D). The -15V PSU in position #1 and the optional +20V/-5V PSU in position #4 (or H785 BBU) deliver power to *all* backplanes. With your system (only the DD11-PK) you need the regulators in positions #1 (H745) and #2 (H744 or H7441) only. The system that had the RK11-D had probably the 3 PSUs installed. You can use that box, and remove the 3rd PSU, if you will only install the DD11-PK backplane. Remember, as soon as you install any other backplane you *must* install that 3rd (+5V) PSU. - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Oct 13 12:55:54 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:55:54 -0700 Subject: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488021@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488021@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <452FD32A.9000609@mindspring.com> Gooijen, Henk wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don North >> Sent: vrijdag 13 oktober 2006 0:29 >> To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest >> >> John A. Dundas III wrote: >>> I'd like to echo Henk's thanks for the discussion. I too >>> am learning from this as I'm actively working on a /34a and >>> looking at a dormant /70. >>> >>> Interestingly the /70 has an M9312 in 1AB _before_ any of the >>> processor boards and an M9302 (as expected) at the end of >>> the Unibus. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> John >> >> I believe this is one of the supported configurations, >> assuming the original installer set all the W1..W12 correctly >> on the M9312. The config manual and prints for the M9312 >> allows for 11/70 usage, so an M9312 on the CPU side (near the >> BGx drivers) with the W1..W5 jumpers *IN* provides the >> necessary 180ohm pullup near the driver. >> The rest of the UNIBUS is terminated with 180/390. >> >> The M9302 at the end of the bus terminates all the UNIBUS >> signals to 180/390 including the end-of-the-line BGx/NPG >> signals (and does SACK detect timeout). >> >> It's probably the case 11/45 usage would be very similar to >> the 11/70 config since the '45 and the '70 are really the >> same basic design. >> > > John, before you power-up your 11/70, check the position of the > M9312 ... My PDP-11/70 has the M9312 also in slot #1 ... > But, in contrast to all other UNIBUS PDP-11's (that I know), > the M9312 in the 11/70 is *not* in position A-B of slot #1, but > in position E-F! I will verify with the print set and if it is > indeed position E-F, I will make a note on my website to point > this out. > I can't say anything about the 11/45, I don't have that machine > in my collection (yet...). > > - Henk. I don't have my own 11/70 :-( so I can't verify the actual position expected for the M9312 on the cpu side, but the M9312 print set install guide does point out that for an 11/70 application the M9312 would go in slot EF1 of the processor backplane (not 1AB). Not clear how this would apply to the 11/45 backplane, if at all. From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Oct 13 13:21:15 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:21:15 -0500 Subject: /34 & ba11-k regulator allocation? In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20364@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <000601c6eef4$5ecbe710$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> > I copied your mail to my editor, to prevent a time-out on my > connection to the e-mail server at work (I'm at home now). > First, I can scan on Monday the manual "PDP1134A power system > description" > (EK-1134A-TM-002) which probably has everything in it you ask. Please do that, Henk. I'd love to have a copy of this too. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 13 13:32:34 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 12:32:34 -0600 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 In-Reply-To: <200610130902510764.6C5C0AAE@10.0.0.252> References: <200610122036.k9CKaLJw013628@onyx.spiritone.com> <452EBAD5.5050003@msm.umr.edu> <200610121551340590.68ABE25F@10.0.0.252> <452ECA27.9060501@retrobbs.org> <452ECFAB.6080906@jetnet.ab.ca> <452F1631.8020008@jetnet.ab.ca> <200610130902510764.6C5C0AAE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <452FDBC2.9050208@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/13/2006 at 9:12 AM Simon Fryer wrote: > CDC "Lower 3000" series (3100, 3200, 3300, 3500) were 24-bit/6 bit > character systems as well as the earlier 924. SDS 920/930/940, Honeywelll > DDP-24. > Several early military computers also used a 24-bit word. > Cheers, > Chuck So how many people have a working 24 bit computer on *this* list at home or in storage? I may end up building a 24/12 bit design ( the PCB layout and hardware design is my problem ) but designing a schematic is not. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 13 13:30:49 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:30:49 -0400 Subject: 12/24-bit CPUs, was Re: Oregon Software Pascal/2 In-Reply-To: <452FDBC2.9050208@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200610122036.k9CKaLJw013628@onyx.spiritone.com> <452EBAD5.5050003@msm.umr.edu> <200610121551340590.68ABE25F@10.0.0.252> <452ECA27.9060501@retrobbs.org> <452ECFAB.6080906@jetnet.ab.ca> <452F1631.8020008@jetnet.ab.ca> <200610130902510764.6C5C0AAE@10.0.0.252> <452FDBC2.9050208@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Oct 13, 2006, at 2:32 PM, woodelf wrote: > So how many people have a working 24 bit computer on *this* list > at home or in storage? I may end up building a 24/12 bit design > ( the PCB layout and hardware design is my problem ) but designing > a schematic is not. I'd be happy to take care of that end if you're interested in a collaborative effort. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Oct 13 13:26:14 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 20:26:14 +0200 Subject: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488021@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20365@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens John A. Dundas III Verzonden: vr 13-10-2006 16:54 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: RE: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest Trimmed the messages a bit... At 1:33 PM +0200 10/13/06, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org ] On Behalf Of Don North >> Sent: vrijdag 13 oktober 2006 0:29 >> To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest >> > > John A. Dundas III wrote: > > > Interestingly the /70 has an M9312 in 1AB _before_ any of the >> > processor boards and an M9302 (as expected) at the end of >> > the Unibus. >> > >> > Thanks, > > > John >> > >John, before you power-up your 11/70, check the position of the >M9312 ... My PDP-11/70 has the M9312 also in slot #1 ... >But, in contrast to all other UNIBUS PDP-11's (that I know), >the M9312 in the 11/70 is *not* in position A-B of slot #1, but >in position E-F! I will verify with the print set and if it is >indeed position E-F, I will make a note on my website to point >this out. /Henk, /I noticed this in your pictures. Interesting. I have the print set /here too and I'll look also. While I personally haven't powered the /machine up yet, I'm fairly certain it was running just prior to my /acquisition from a former DEC FE. [I don't mean to implicate him if /indeed the module should be in 1EF as it's possible the machine /wasn't working and/or I might have inadvertently moved a few things /around.] / /John Hi John, just to be sure I did not make any errors on my website, I checked the 11/70 field maintenance print set, MP00824. On page 6 is clearly slot 1 E-F for the terminator, with notes to it which are on page 2. It only says that you install M930? or M9312, but not both ... So, your system with the M9312 in slot 1 A-B is a bit of a puzzle. I have not found what the usage is for slot 1 A thru D. Perhaps diagnostic hardware? But my scans are the earlier ones, done as TIFF, not PDF. In Win98SE easy to browse, but in WinXP a PITA. - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 13 13:52:28 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 12:52:28 -0600 Subject: 12/24-bit CPUs, was Re: Oregon Software Pascal/2 In-Reply-To: References: <200610122036.k9CKaLJw013628@onyx.spiritone.com> <452EBAD5.5050003@msm.umr.edu> <200610121551340590.68ABE25F@10.0.0.252> <452ECA27.9060501@retrobbs.org> <452ECFAB.6080906@jetnet.ab.ca> <452F1631.8020008@jetnet.ab.ca> <200610130902510764.6C5C0AAE@10.0.0.252> <452FDBC2.9050208@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <452FE06C.9040005@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 13, 2006, at 2:32 PM, woodelf wrote: > >> So how many people have a working 24 bit computer on *this* list >> at home or in storage? I may end up building a 24/12 bit design >> ( the PCB layout and hardware design is my problem ) but designing >> a schematic is not. > > > I'd be happy to take care of that end if you're interested in a > collaborative effort. Well for now it is mostly sketched out on Quad Paper. It is a 12/24 bit CPU that is similar to the 6809 but only can be clocked to 5 Mhz. It is classic in that is about 1960's to 1970's time frame in that it does not have flags rather branches on testing of the AC. It just has single carry flag. I can get you the opcode and other stuff in a few days as dig out my papers. A mother board, 2 Alu cards, 1 control card 1 I/O card ( 6800 I/O ), 1 memory card ( 1 meg - static ) 1 front panel card & leds. > -Dave > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 13 14:53:21 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 19:53:21 +0000 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <200610130923210882.6C6ECFD5@10.0.0.252> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452F0D5B.3030508@atarimuseum.com> <200610130923210882.6C6ECFD5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <452FEEB1.1080502@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/12/2006 at 11:51 PM Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Surprisingly.... its still up. I'd figured the gates-goons-quad >> would've shut it down within minutes, even something as old as Dos >> 6.0 You'd figured they'd never allow anything to leak out of their >> fortress of solitude. > > So, where's the source for Windows 3.1? :) there was no source - they just kept on generating big random number sequences until they got binaries that ran :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 13 14:01:20 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 12:01:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <452FEEB1.1080502@yahoo.co.uk> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452F0D5B.3030508@atarimuseum.com> <200610130923210882.6C6ECFD5@10.0.0.252> <452FEEB1.1080502@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061013120036.R98616@shell.lmi.net> > > So, where's the source for Windows 3.1? :) On Fri, 13 Oct 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > there was no source - they just kept on generating big random number sequences > until they got binaries that ran :-) . . . and then they chose the runner-up candidate. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 13 14:09:43 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 12:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 12/24-bit CPUs, was Re: Oregon Software Pascal/2 In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 13, 2006 02:30:49 PM Message-ID: <200610131909.k9DJ9if6015536@onyx.spiritone.com> > On Oct 13, 2006, at 2:32 PM, woodelf wrote: > > So how many people have a working 24 bit computer on *this* list > > at home or in storage? Interesting question. I would love to have a Harris system, though realistically I probably don't have room. The first *REAL* computer I worked on was a Harris system running VOS. I was an electrician at the time and I taught the System Administrator for it how to use PC's and he taught me how to do various tasks on the Harris. Nothing like doing the nightly backups *while* making the rounds of the various engineering spaces (I'd stop off in the office where the computer was to change 9-Track tapes). OTOH, it wasn't much fun getting woken up to get the computer back online when it went down because people knew I could, and they knew I lived onboard ship. Zane From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Oct 13 14:31:51 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:31:51 -0400 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <20061012183132.C65195@shell.lmi.net> References: <20061012183132.C65195@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200610131531.53126.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 12 October 2006 09:32 pm, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > http://www.nurs.or.jp.nyud.net:8080/~nnn/MS-DOS.6.0.Source.Code.zip > > > > > > That site seems to be down now > > On Thu, 12 Oct 2006, Richard wrote: > > I was able to download it just now after reading your mail. > > IE and Firefox choked on the URL, > but with minor changes, it works. Firefox here (under linux) has no problems with it. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, dealiest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of spac, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Oct 13 14:40:03 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:40:03 -0600 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <20061013120036.R98616@shell.lmi.net> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452F0D5B.3030508@atarimuseum.com> <200610130923210882.6C6ECFD5@10.0.0.252> <452FEEB1.1080502@yahoo.co.uk> <20061013120036.R98616@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <452FEB93.20404@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > . . . and then they chose the runner-up candidate. That was to save on the Bannanas that the programmer got as pay. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 13 15:27:25 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <200610131531.53126.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at "Oct 13, 6 03:31:51 pm" Message-ID: <200610132027.k9DKRPC0019836@floodgap.com> > > IE and Firefox choked on the URL, > > but with minor changes, it works. > > Firefox here (under linux) has no problems with it. Camino on the Mac has no problems either. What were the minor changes? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't let 'em drive you crazy when it's within walking distance. ----------- From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Oct 13 15:31:11 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:31:11 -0700 Subject: Unibus Termination KnowledgeQuest In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20365@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488021@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20365@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: Wow, I'm glad you guys (Don, Henk) caught that before I powered up the system! Now that you point it out, I see it. It's also made clear in the 11/70 maintenance and installation manual. 1EF it is. One less thing to fry. Thanks, John From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 13 15:37:17 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <200610132027.k9DKRPC0019836@floodgap.com> References: <200610132027.k9DKRPC0019836@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20061013133446.T98616@shell.lmi.net> > > > IE and Firefox choked on the URL, http://www.nurs.or.jp.nyud.net:8080/~nnn/MS-DOS.6.0.Source.Code.zip > > > but with minor changes, it works. > > Firefox here (under linux) has no problems with it. > Camino on the Mac has no problems either. What were the minor changes? http://www.nurs.or.jp/~nnn/MS-DOS.6.0.Source.Code.zip From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 13 15:37:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:37:43 -0700 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <200610132027.k9DKRPC0019836@floodgap.com> References: <200610132027.k9DKRPC0019836@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200610131337430897.6D57B6D5@10.0.0.252> On 10/13/2006 at 1:27 PM Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > IE and Firefox choked on the URL, >> > but with minor changes, it works. >> >> Firefox here (under linux) has no problems with it. > >Camino on the Mac has no problems either. What were the minor changes? Grabbed it just fine with Firefox 1.5.0.7 on Win2K. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 13 15:53:07 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:53:07 -0500 Subject: 11/34 irks References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488021@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20365@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <00b801c6ef09$99c422f0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Ya know... if you're going to design and manufacture a "modular" power supply like is in the 11/34A/BA11K, with those nice regulator modules... wouldn't you think it could be designed so you could pull them out to replace or add without having to remove the backend of the chassis? That's just silly. Perhaps I'm missing it. It appears that you take off the top cover, undo a holding screw in the back (one per regulator), and undo the connector for that regulator underneath. But the two screws underneath and inside? Those don't seem to be removable without taking off the back end of the chassis. Icky. GrumbleGrumble... Jay From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Oct 13 16:16:45 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 23:16:45 +0200 Subject: 11/34 irks References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488021@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net><447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20365@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <00b801c6ef09$99c422f0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20366@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> / Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Jay West / Verzonden: vr 13-10-2006 22:53 / Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts / Onderwerp: 11/34 irks / / Ya know... if you're going to design and manufacture a "modular" power / supply like is in the 11/34A/BA11K, with those nice regulator modules... / wouldn't you think it could be designed so you could pull them out to / replace or add without having to remove the backend of the chassis? That's / just silly. / / Perhaps I'm missing it. It appears that you take off the top cover, undo a / holding screw in the back (one per regulator), and undo the connector for / that regulator underneath. But the two screws underneath and inside? Those / don't seem to be removable without taking off the back end of the chassis. / Icky. GrumbleGrumble... / / Jay Nope, to remove the PSU bricks, you must remove the 3 short screws at both sides. Notice that the metal has a small "triangle" cut out the sheet. Near that is the screw you remove *last*. After removing the other two at both sides and loosening the 3rd screw, you can open up the PSU box a little. With a bit of effort you can disconnect all cables. Make notes! Then unscrew the last one ... Be prepared! The PSU is most of the weight of the whole box ! Now you know why I do fitness 4x a week :-) - Henk. 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From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Oct 13 16:22:42 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:22:42 -0500 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <200610131317.k9DDHU8t064743@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200610131317.k9DDHU8t064743@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <453003A2.7010400@oldskool.org> Bob wrote: > On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:43:42 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> That's interesting, though. IBM must have believed that the 5150 would be a >> global product and I'd expect that was the plan all along - so why put >> circuitry on there for one market only? > > I do not think there was ever was a PAL version of the CGA card. Correct. > As far as I know the CGA card was the only one dependant on the base clock freq being right on. > or It would loose color burst. I always thought the 4.77mhz was chosen because it could also be used as the > clock ref for the video. Yep. The fact that it and the CPU are driven at integral divisions of the timer rate is further proof. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Oct 13 16:26:05 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:26:05 -0500 Subject: 11/34 irks In-Reply-To: <00b801c6ef09$99c422f0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <000b01c6ef0e$30f41140$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> *shrug* I just leave out the hard-to-get-to screw, the other modules fitting next to the keep them lined up properly. However, the bottom screw for the back end of the chassis is only meant to be loosened - iirc, you're supposed to remove the top two screws on either side of the chassis holding the back end on,and it flips down, the other screws on either side being designed as a hinge. At least that's what I've been told. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 3:53 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: 11/34 irks > > Ya know... if you're going to design and manufacture a > "modular" power supply like is in the 11/34A/BA11K, with > those nice regulator modules... > wouldn't you think it could be designed so you could pull > them out to replace or add without having to remove the > backend of the chassis? That's just silly. > > Perhaps I'm missing it. It appears that you take off the top > cover, undo a holding screw in the back (one per regulator), > and undo the connector for that regulator underneath. But the > two screws underneath and inside? Those don't seem to be > removable without taking off the back end of the chassis. > Icky. GrumbleGrumble... > > Jay > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 13 16:36:59 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:36:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <200610121721110220.68FDEC36@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 12, 6 05:21:11 pm Message-ID: > > On 10/13/2006 at 12:36 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >But only if you're using a composite NTSC monitor (the colour subcarrier > >-- 3.58-ish MHz -- is 1/4 of the master clock freqwuncy, of course). On > >a TTL RGB monitor, like the 5153, the trimemr does nothing. > > Just relating what the notation is on the 5150 schematic. Most folks think > it's meant for correcting the time-of-day clock. If you've got the scheamtics, it's obvious that the trimmer just 'pulls' the crystal frequency a bit. And the CGA card scheamatics show how that master clock is used to generate the NTSC colour subcarrier. The TTL RGB monitors just take the 4 digital signals from the CGA card, such a monitor doesn't use the NTSC encoder circuit. So it's clear the clock freqeuncy doesn't alter the colour on said monitor. IIRC, tweaking this trimmer is documetned in the Hardware Maintenance and Service manuals, as a way to correct missing colour on a composite monitor. -tony From ajwills at paradise.net.nz Fri Oct 13 17:00:50 2006 From: ajwills at paradise.net.nz (ajwills at paradise.net.nz) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:00:50 +1300 (NZDT) Subject: NTSC vs PAL onboard. was Re: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <453003A2.7010400@oldskool.org> References: <200610131317.k9DDHU8t064743@keith.ezwind.net> <453003A2.7010400@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1160776850.45300c92c1151@www.paradise.net.nz> Quoting Jim Leonard : > Bob wrote: > > On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:43:42 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> That's interesting, though. IBM must have believed that the 5150 > >> would be a global product and I'd expect that was the plan all along > >> - so why put circuitry on there for one market only? > > > > I do not think there was ever was a PAL version of the CGA card. > > Correct. It wasn't really a problem, you bought a complete system with monitor. It was no different from buying a system with TTL, Hercules, EGA, PGA, or later VGA monitors. For the very few applications where we need to connect to a TV or video recorder etc we'd just have to get a PAL card with composit output or NTSC to PAL conversion hardware. Reminds me of the AppleII, I once bought a Euro-Apple motherboard from a surplus place (late 70's I think), it had PAL onboard instead of NTSC (never released to the market I believe). Trouble was lots of add-on cards wouldn't work with it (from memory 80column video, CP/M and Flex add-ons) ... so I sat down with the schematics (supplied) and compared them with those published in the AppleII manual (yes every manual had the schematics in a foldout inside the back cover) and hacked the motherboard back to a standard AppleII. It worked ;-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 13 16:45:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:45:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <200610131317.k9DDHU8t064743@keith.ezwind.net> from "Bob" at Oct 13, 6 09:19:24 am Message-ID: > > On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:43:42 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > >That's interesting, though. IBM must have believed that the 5150 would be a > >global product and I'd expect that was the plan all along - so why put > >circuitry on there for one market only? > > > I do not think there was ever was a PAL version of the CGA card. There wasn't. In fact I've never seen a PAL version of any classic IBM-compatible video card. It was possible to reprogram the 6845 registers on a CGA card to give European TV timing, albeit still with NTSC-like colour output on the composite connector. I have -- somewhere -- a box that plugs into the DE9 (TTL RGV output) connector on a CGA card and which encodes said signals to PAL. The result (after repogramming the 6845) is a PC that can display on a European TV set. > As far as I know the CGA card was the only one dependant on the base clock freq being right on. A few other cards use the OSC signal from the ISA connector, but AFAIK none of them depend on the exact frequency like the CGA card does. > or It would loose color burst. I always thought the 4.77mhz was chosen because it could also be used as the > clock ref for the video. Absolutely. The mater clock is 14,xx MHz. That was chosen becasue it's 4 tiomes the NTSC subcarrier and the division by 4 gives the quadrature signals needed to make a simple NTSC encoder. The CPU clock is the same master clock divided by 3 (I have no idea why the Intel clock generator has a /3 stage in it...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 13 16:55:22 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:55:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/34 irks In-Reply-To: <00b801c6ef09$99c422f0$6700a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Oct 13, 6 03:53:07 pm Message-ID: > > Ya know... if you're going to design and manufacture a "modular" power > supply like is in the 11/34A/BA11K, with those nice regulator modules... > wouldn't you think it could be designed so you could pull them out to > replace or add without having to remove the backend of the chassis? That's > just silly. > > Perhaps I'm missing it. It appears that you take off the top cover, undo a > holding screw in the back (one per regulator), and undo the connector for > that regulator underneath. But the two screws underneath and inside? Those > don't seem to be removable without taking off the back end of the chassis. > Icky. GrumbleGrumble... It's not quite as bad... What you do is : Remove top cover, loosen the top screw holding the PSU ('backend of the chassis) on each side, and remove the bottmo 2 screws on each side. Then swing the CPU to the vertical position (That's one reason why the rack slides have a tilt mechanism) and the PSU will swing away from the backplane are. Unplug the 8 pin mate-n-lock, remove the 3 screws and slide the regulator out. The connecotrs are on the front of the regulators themselves, not the connectors on the power distrbution PCB. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 13 17:19:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:19:31 -0700 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200610131519310750.6DB4E965@10.0.0.252> On 10/13/2006 at 10:36 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >IIRC, tweaking this trimmer is documetned in the Hardware Maintenance and >Service manuals, as a way to correct missing colour on a composite monitor. Probably. I think the 14.3/4.77 MHz clock and cassette tape interface go a long way toward explaining the original intent of the 5150--basically a home entertainment box driving a TV set, much like the Atari 400/800 boxes. And it also explains that when I tried to order a 5150 for export (50Hz 220v), the IBM sales office told me that it "would be a while yet". Given price point of the PC, it would have been a very difficult sell against the Atari and CBM machines had IBM not changed its marketing focus a bit. Given the (somewhat needless) complexity of the MDA. I get the feeling that it was an afterthought type of product to turn the PC into a desktop computer. So IBM just "stumbled" into the desktop market, it seems. If they were truly aiming for it from the start, their box might have been an 8 MHz 8086. Cheers, Chuck From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Oct 13 17:31:14 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:31:14 -0700 Subject: 11/34 irks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <453013B2.1050901@mindspring.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Ya know... if you're going to design and manufacture a "modular" power >> supply like is in the 11/34A/BA11K, with those nice regulator modules... >> wouldn't you think it could be designed so you could pull them out to >> replace or add without having to remove the backend of the chassis? That's >> just silly. >> >> Perhaps I'm missing it. It appears that you take off the top cover, undo a >> holding screw in the back (one per regulator), and undo the connector for >> that regulator underneath. But the two screws underneath and inside? Those >> don't seem to be removable without taking off the back end of the chassis. >> Icky. GrumbleGrumble... > > It's not quite as bad... What you do is : > > Remove top cover, loosen the top screw holding the PSU ('backend of the > chassis) on each side, and remove the bottmo 2 screws on each side. Then > swing the CPU to the vertical position (That's one reason why the rack > slides have a tilt mechanism) and the PSU will swing away from the > backplane are. Unplug the 8 pin mate-n-lock, remove the 3 screws and > slide the regulator out. > > The connecotrs are on the front of the regulators themselves, not the > connectors on the power distrbution PCB Yup, for all their supposed 'engineering prowess' DEC did some mighty stupid things sometimes, especially in the 1970s vintage systems. Of course the above process only works well if you happen to have a BA11-K box rack mounted with those cute DEC tilt slides. If not, then you are in for a major overhaul. And by the way try and do all this without bending a backplane pin... Think the 11/34 in the BA11-K box is bad ... just try and get to the power supply to replace the fan in a PDP-8m. You have to take the whole box apart. To remove the P/S you need to move the backplane about an inch. To move the backplane, well, that means pulling all the cards, ... what a pain! You'd think by looking at the box the P/S would just slide right out, but no they had to use pressfit bolts on the backpanel instead of regular screws. Jeesh. From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Oct 13 17:53:15 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:53:15 -0400 Subject: 11/34 irks In-Reply-To: <00b801c6ef09$99c422f0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488021@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <00b801c6ef09$99c422f0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200610131853.15945.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 13 October 2006 04:53 pm, Jay West wrote: > Ya know... if you're going to design and manufacture a "modular" power > supply like is in the 11/34A/BA11K, with those nice regulator modules... > wouldn't you think it could be designed so you could pull them out to > replace or add without having to remove the backend of the chassis? That's > just silly. > > Perhaps I'm missing it. It appears that you take off the top cover, undo a > holding screw in the back (one per regulator), and undo the connector for > that regulator underneath. But the two screws underneath and inside? Those > don't seem to be removable without taking off the back end of the chassis. > Icky. GrumbleGrumble... > > Jay Being a hardeware repair kinda guy, this has been a pet peeve of mine for a very long time. I have run across some stuff that was designed to be easy to work on, and in some cases which actually got better over time. And while in some cases there may be slight extra costs incurred to add some bits, there are other cases where just a little bit of consideration for such things in the design process can make all of the difference. "Classic" example (and yes, it's over 10 year old :-): I was trying to change out the battery in a Lumina APV. Like a lot of other stuff, there was a brace that ran across from the sides to the front, and you typically unbolted this thing if you had to and swung it off to one side. And in this case you had to because the battery was sitting under it. Only in this case you couldn't just do that, because the bits of plastic that were bolted on top of it had to get out of the way first -- so to put a battery in that vehicle you had to drop the driver's side headlight! Note that this could have been alleviated by simply contouring the plastic to allow the brace bolts to be accessed, and indeed the plastic _was_ countoured -- just not in the right spot. Automotive stuff in general seems to be getting worse and worse as time goes on for being able to work on it, but the trend seems to be in all sorts of manufactured product. Or maybe I'm just getting grouchier about it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, dealiest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of spac, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 13 18:04:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 16:04:34 -0700 Subject: 11/34 irks In-Reply-To: <200610131853.15945.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488021@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <00b801c6ef09$99c422f0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <200610131853.15945.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200610131604340125.6DDE2529@10.0.0.252> On 10/13/2006 at 6:53 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Automotive stuff in general seems to be getting worse and worse as time >goes on for being able to work on it, but the trend seems to be in all sorts >of manufactured product. Or maybe I'm just getting grouchier about it... It's like everything else nowadays--not made to be serviced at all, just easy to manufacture. The idea being that if you keep your Lumina long enough to have a dead battery, you should have already purchased a new one. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Oct 13 18:26:51 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 19:26:51 -0400 Subject: 11/34 irks In-Reply-To: <200610131604340125.6DDE2529@10.0.0.252> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488021@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <200610131853.15945.rtellason@verizon.net> <200610131604340125.6DDE2529@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200610131926.51344.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 13 October 2006 07:04 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/13/2006 at 6:53 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >Automotive stuff in general seems to be getting worse and worse as time > >goes on for being able to work on it, but the trend seems to be in all > > sorts of manufactured product. Or maybe I'm just getting grouchier about > > it... > > It's like everything else nowadays--not made to be serviced at all, just > easy to manufacture. The idea being that if you keep your Lumina long > enough to have a dead battery, you should have already purchased a new one. Yup, and having made my living for way too much of the time fixing stuff, I find myself without marketable skills these days... :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, dealiest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of spac, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From marvin at rain.org Fri Oct 13 19:11:46 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 17:11:46 -0700 Subject: Tandy 2000 Floppy Drive Replacement Message-ID: <45302B42.E3A4EB0@rain.org> I am playing around right now with a Tandy 2000, but it has no floppy drive. THE HD works fine, but I'd love to get the information off the HD, and that is difficult right now :). I tried a couple of standard 360K/1.2MB drives before Googling around. Does anyone have any information about what can be used as a replacement drive? Interestingly, the information I've seen indicates that the Tandy 2000 runs a modified version of MS-DOS 2.11 but the version on this machine is 2.0. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 13 19:17:25 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 17:17:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy 2000 Floppy Drive Replacement In-Reply-To: <45302B42.E3A4EB0@rain.org> References: <45302B42.E3A4EB0@rain.org> Message-ID: <20061013171428.G17373@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I am playing around right now with a Tandy 2000, but it has no floppy drive. THE > HD works fine, but I'd love to get the information off the HD, and that is > difficult right now :). I tried a couple of standard 360K/1.2MB drives before > Googling around. Does anyone have any information about what can be used as a > replacement drive? The Tandy 2000 uses a 720K 5.25" drive. DSDD 96tpi. Matsushita (Panasonic, Shugart, etc.) 465 Tandon TM100-4 Teac 55F etc. SOME 1.2M drive could work. They need to be jumpered to 300 RPM, "low density" recording current, etc. > Interestingly, the information I've seen indicates that the Tandy 2000 runs a > modified version of MS-DOS 2.11 but the version on this machine is 2.0. With a little work, they can be made to run other versions. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From useddec at gmail.com Fri Oct 13 19:35:56 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 19:35:56 -0500 Subject: Teletype Parts Message-ID: <624966d60610131735n69d593bald08f5e98eb751a3d@mail.gmail.com> I just pickup about 1000 mostly new teletype parts. Looking for a home, > pieces or the entire lot. Thanks, Paul Anderson 217-586-5361 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 13 19:41:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 01:41:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/34 irks In-Reply-To: <453013B2.1050901@mindspring.com> from "Don North" at Oct 13, 6 03:31:14 pm Message-ID: > > It's not quite as bad... What you do is : > > > > Remove top cover, loosen the top screw holding the PSU ('backend of the > > chassis) on each side, and remove the bottmo 2 screws on each side. Then > > swing the CPU to the vertical position (That's one reason why the rack > > slides have a tilt mechanism) and the PSU will swing away from the > > backplane are. Unplug the 8 pin mate-n-lock, remove the 3 screws and > > slide the regulator out. > > > > The connecotrs are on the front of the regulators themselves, not the > > connectors on the power distrbution PCB > > Yup, for all their supposed 'engineering prowess' DEC did some mighty stupid > things sometimes, especially in the 1970s vintage systems. I found they got a lot worse in the early 1980s. > > Of course the above process only works well if you happen to have a > BA11-K box > rack mounted with those cute DEC tilt slides. If not, then you are in for If your BA11-K is not in a rack, then loosen/take out the screws as above, then tip the CPU box onto one side. You can then ease the PSU away from the rest of the CPU and get the regulator out. > a major overhaul. And by the way try and do all this without bending a > backplane pin... > > Think the 11/34 in the BA11-K box is bad ... just try and get to the power > supply to replace the fan in a PDP-8m. You have to take the whole box apart. I am sure I've stated ARD's law of DECSA construction before -- 'The lower the importance of a part of a DECSA, the more screws hold it in place'. The PSUs are held in my 2 screws, the fan tray by 4 screws, but the grille over the fan tray is held on by an amazing 28 screws. Removing the backplane from a DECSA is an entertainment. Everything else has to come out first... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 13 19:50:29 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 01:50:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/34 irks In-Reply-To: <200610131853.15945.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Oct 13, 6 06:53:15 pm Message-ID: > Being a hardeware repair kinda guy, this has been a pet peeve of mine for a > very long time. I have run across some stuff that was designed to be easy to > work on, and in some cases which actually got better over time. And while My favourite 2 'easy to work on' items are both video displays -- a Barco colour monitor nad an HP1311 XY vector display. The point being there's an extended card for the plug-in PCBs stored in a spare slot inside. One of my least-favourite machines to work on is the DEC Rainbow. It seems almsot impossible to set that thing up so that you can get to testpoints on the mainboard. I can rememebr having the PSU balanced upside-down alongside the logic board assembly, for example. > in some cases there may be slight extra costs incurred to add some bits, > there are other cases where just a little bit of consideration for such > things in the design process can make all of the difference. Half the time it seems things are deliberately difficult to repair. Using heat-stakes in place of screws, putting things in the least accessible place possible, and so on. > > "Classic" example (and yes, it's over 10 year old :-): I was trying to > change out the battery in a Lumina APV. Like a lot of other stuff, there I am gettign fed up with the number of cars where it's difficult to change the timing (camshaft) belt. I've seen many examples where the belt goes _through_ an engine mounting, meaning you have to support the engine and remove the mounting to change the belt. Or drop the engine a bit to get to the crankshaft bolt, or... -tony From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 13 19:59:37 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 20:59:37 -0400 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200610140057.k9E0vgZc086530@keith.ezwind.net> Control Systems made an Artist 2 card which was ega like and supported genlock in both NTSC or PAL but not both there was a coil and a cap that had to be changed. It was sold/used for the video overlay of title info on live video. There was a video titleing system that used it, I forget its name. I did an Autocad driver for it in about 1985 or 86ish to do video traceing. Still have a few somewhere in the basement. The other Bob On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 22:45:09 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:43:42 +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> >That's interesting, though. IBM must have believed that the 5150 would be a >> >global product and I'd expect that was the plan all along - so why put >> >circuitry on there for one market only? >> >> >> I do not think there was ever was a PAL version of the CGA card. >There wasn't. In fact I've never seen a PAL version of any classic >IBM-compatible video card. >It was possible to reprogram the 6845 registers on a CGA card to give >European TV timing, albeit still with NTSC-like colour output on the >composite connector. I have -- somewhere -- a box that plugs into the DE9 >(TTL RGV output) connector on a CGA card and which encodes said signals >to PAL. The result (after repogramming the 6845) is a PC that can display >on a European TV set. >> As far as I know the CGA card was the only one dependant on the base clock freq being right on. >A few other cards use the OSC signal from the ISA connector, but AFAIK >none of them depend on the exact frequency like the CGA card does. >> or It would loose color burst. I always thought the 4.77mhz was chosen because it could also be used as the >> clock ref for the video. >Absolutely. The mater clock is 14,xx MHz. That was chosen becasue it's 4 >tiomes the NTSC subcarrier and the division by 4 gives the quadrature >signals needed to make a simple NTSC encoder. The CPU clock is the same >master clock divided by 3 (I have no idea why the Intel clock generator >has a /3 stage in it...) >-tony From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Oct 13 20:08:29 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 20:08:29 -0500 Subject: Teletype Parts References: <624966d60610131735n69d593bald08f5e98eb751a3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <009a01c6ef2d$44586b90$2c406b43@66067007> Were and what? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Anderson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:35 PM Subject: Teletype Parts > I just pickup about 1000 mostly new teletype parts. Looking for a home, >> pieces or the entire lot. > > > > Thanks, Paul Anderson > 217-586-5361 > From useddec at gmail.com Fri Oct 13 21:33:27 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 02:33:27 -0000 Subject: Teletype Parts In-Reply-To: <009a01c6ef2d$44586b90$2c406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <000901c706d4$57f2c5b0$4200a8c0@main> Hi, I'm in IL, and can call you on my dime if you would like. Thanks, Paul 217-586-5361 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Keys Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 8:08 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Teletype Parts Were and what? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Anderson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:35 PM Subject: Teletype Parts > I just pickup about 1000 mostly new teletype parts. Looking for a home, >> pieces or the entire lot. > > > > Thanks, Paul Anderson > 217-586-5361 > From marvin at rain.org Fri Oct 13 22:46:06 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 20:46:06 -0700 Subject: Tandy 2000 Floppy Drive Replacement Message-ID: <45305D7E.54E177E2@rain.org> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006, Fred Ciscin wrote: > The Tandy 2000 uses a 720K 5.25" drive. DSDD 96tpi. > Matsushita (Panasonic, Shugart, etc.) 465 > Tandon TM100-4 > Teac 55F > etc. > > SOME 1.2M drive could work. They need to be jumpered to 300 RPM, "low > density" recording current, etc. First, what other machines used a 5 1/4" 720K drive? I've been looking through the stash, and so far I haven't found anything. Second, IIRC the speed and "low density" recording current are set with jumpers. What is the etc.? I might add that when connecting a standard 360K drive, the light comes on and stays on, and the drive continues to spin when a disk is inserted. This gives me the impression that there may be something wrong with the disk controller for the Tandy 2000. The cables for the 2000 are straight-thru, so I rejumpered the drive to the first drive (D0 of 0-3 or D1 of 1-4.) And yes, I checked and double checked to make sure that pin 1 on the motherboard matches pin 1 on the drive! Thanks! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 13 23:25:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 21:25:48 -0700 Subject: Tandy 2000 Floppy Drive Replacement In-Reply-To: <45305D7E.54E177E2@rain.org> References: <45305D7E.54E177E2@rain.org> Message-ID: <200610132125480609.6F043D1B@10.0.0.252> On 10/13/2006 at 8:46 PM Marvin Johnston wrote: >First, what other machines used a 5 1/4" 720K drive? I've been looking >through the stash, and so far I haven't found anything. I suspect that your 2000 may want a READY/ signal on pin 34. Try finding a jumper for it or grounding it and see if your system likes that. Here are a few 96 tpi candidates from the 70's-early 80's: Altos Series 5 Ampro (support) Archive I, II and III CMC Supersystem Columbia 1600 Compis Compupro (support) Datavue DV80 DECMate II, DEC Rainbow Dictaphone 6000 Digilog 1500 Direct 1025 Eagle (all: I, II, III, IV, V, 16) Epson QX-16 Ericsson DTC, Step One Esprit DBS 16 Florida Graphics Future FX-20 Gemini Galaxy Globe 101 Hazeltine Heath H89 (some) Heurikon MLZ-91A ICL DRS20, 35,36 and 300 IMS 5000 (some) ITT 3030 JC Information Systems Kaypro (some) Lanier LTD MAI Basic Four Michels & Kleberhoff Durango/Molecular Poppy Monroe NCR First Step New Brain Niat Nixdorf 8810/8830 Olympia People Osborne Executive (some), Nuevo OSM Zeus Otrona Attache (some) Pericom Philips PC-2012, 3000 Pied Piper Prince Digico Sanyo MBC-1150, 1250, 4050, 2000 Sharp 5600 Shelton SIG/NET 2 Siemens PG-685 Sperry UTS-30, UTS-5000 Superbrain II Tatung TPC2000 Techron TEF 10 Televideo 1603 Toshiba 300 Transtec U-Micro 1000 Visual 1050 Xerox 1800 Zenith Z-37 Zorba (some) From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Oct 13 23:26:17 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 00:26:17 -0400 Subject: 11/34 irks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200610140026.18138.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 13 October 2006 08:50 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > "Classic" example (and yes, it's over 10 year old :-): I was trying to > > change out the battery in a Lumina APV. Like a lot of other stuff, > > there > > I am gettign fed up with the number of cars where it's difficult to > change the timing (camshaft) belt. I've seen many examples where the belt > goes _through_ an engine mounting, meaning you have to support the engine > and remove the mounting to change the belt. Or drop the engine a bit to > get to the crankshaft bolt, or... Having done a couple of those too, my experience agrees with this. Why make an item that _will_ wear and eventually break so darn difficult to replace? Grr! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, dealiest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of spac, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Oct 13 19:41:55 2006 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 00:41:55 +0000 Subject: 11/34 irks In-Reply-To: <200610140026.18138.rtellason@verizon.net> References: Message-ID: <20061014043945.QSR27612.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > > I am gettign fed up with the number of cars where it's difficult to > > change the timing (camshaft) belt. I've seen many examples where the belt > > goes _through_ an engine mounting, meaning you have to support the engine > > and remove the mounting to change the belt. Or drop the engine a bit to > > get to the crankshaft bolt, or... > > Having done a couple of those too, my experience agrees with this. Why make > an item that _will_ wear and eventually break so darn difficult to replace? > > Grr! > > -- What about those chrysler 2.2/2.5? Do the timing belt on those, it's a SNAP. Did one in my caravan, 2.2 carb to be sure :)) Slugmobile but get job done. Cheers, Wizard From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Oct 14 01:36:03 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 23:36:03 -0700 Subject: Tandy 2000 Floppy Drive Replacement In-Reply-To: <45305D7E.54E177E2@rain.org> Message-ID: <027701c6ef5b$05982fc0$0501a8c0@liberator> Some ALTOS systems did. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Johnston Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 8:46 PM To: ClassicCmp Subject: Re: Tandy 2000 Floppy Drive Replacement On Fri, 13 Oct 2006, Fred Ciscin wrote: > The Tandy 2000 uses a 720K 5.25" drive. DSDD 96tpi. > Matsushita (Panasonic, Shugart, etc.) 465 > Tandon TM100-4 > Teac 55F > etc. > > SOME 1.2M drive could work. They need to be jumpered to 300 RPM, "low > density" recording current, etc. First, what other machines used a 5 1/4" 720K drive? I've been looking through the stash, and so far I haven't found anything. Second, IIRC the speed and "low density" recording current are set with jumpers. What is the etc.? I might add that when connecting a standard 360K drive, the light comes on and stays on, and the drive continues to spin when a disk is inserted. This gives me the impression that there may be something wrong with the disk controller for the Tandy 2000. The cables for the 2000 are straight-thru, so I rejumpered the drive to the first drive (D0 of 0-3 or D1 of 1-4.) And yes, I checked and double checked to make sure that pin 1 on the motherboard matches pin 1 on the drive! Thanks! From rcini at optonline.net Sat Oct 14 06:34:36 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 07:34:36 -0400 Subject: Tandy 2000 Floppy Drive Replacement In-Reply-To: <027701c6ef5b$05982fc0$0501a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <004d01c6ef84$ba897550$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> I think that the Micromint SB180 used them, too. I remember reading in a FAQ somewhere that certain 1.2mb drives can be jumpered to work. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Geoff Reed Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 2:36 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Tandy 2000 Floppy Drive Replacement Some ALTOS systems did. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Johnston Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 8:46 PM To: ClassicCmp Subject: Re: Tandy 2000 Floppy Drive Replacement On Fri, 13 Oct 2006, Fred Ciscin wrote: > The Tandy 2000 uses a 720K 5.25" drive. DSDD 96tpi. > Matsushita (Panasonic, Shugart, etc.) 465 > Tandon TM100-4 > Teac 55F > etc. > > SOME 1.2M drive could work. They need to be jumpered to 300 RPM, "low > density" recording current, etc. First, what other machines used a 5 1/4" 720K drive? I've been looking through the stash, and so far I haven't found anything. Second, IIRC the speed and "low density" recording current are set with jumpers. What is the etc.? I might add that when connecting a standard 360K drive, the light comes on and stays on, and the drive continues to spin when a disk is inserted. This gives me the impression that there may be something wrong with the disk controller for the Tandy 2000. The cables for the 2000 are straight-thru, so I rejumpered the drive to the first drive (D0 of 0-3 or D1 of 1-4.) And yes, I checked and double checked to make sure that pin 1 on the motherboard matches pin 1 on the drive! Thanks! From ray at arachelian.com Sat Oct 14 08:45:29 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 09:45:29 -0400 Subject: 11/34 irks In-Reply-To: <200610140026.18138.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200610140026.18138.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4530E9F9.3060204@arachelian.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Having done a couple of those too, my experience agrees with this. Why make > an item that _will_ wear and eventually break so darn difficult to replace? > > Grr! > Planned obsolescence? Cars are disposable these days on purpose. From alhartman at yahoo.com Sat Oct 14 13:08:14 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:08:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 38, Issue 22 Message-ID: <20061014180814.60153.qmail@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Sounds like you have the Floppy Cable backwards. Try plugging it in the other way around. You have Pin 1 and pin 40 flipped. A constant light and spinning motor is the usual symptom of that. Another way to get data off that machine is to use LapLink V and a Serial LapLink Cable. There were several work-alikes to LapLink like FastMove and others. You should be able to buy LapLink cables rather cheaply these days. Al Phila, PA ----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Marvin Johnston Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 8:46 PM To: ClassicCmp Subject: Re: Tandy 2000 Floppy Drive Replacement On Fri, 13 Oct 2006, Fred Ciscin wrote: > The Tandy 2000 uses a 720K 5.25" drive. DSDD 96tpi. > Matsushita (Panasonic, Shugart, etc.) 465 > Tandon TM100-4 > Teac 55F > etc. > > SOME 1.2M drive could work. They need to be jumpered to 300 RPM, "low > density" recording current, etc. First, what other machines used a 5 1/4" 720K drive? I've been looking through the stash, and so far I haven't found anything. Second, IIRC the speed and "low density" recording current are set with jumpers. What is the etc.? I might add that when connecting a standard 360K drive, the light comes on and stays on, and the drive continues to spin when a disk is inserted. This gives me the impression that there may be something wrong with the disk controller for the Tandy 2000. The cables for the 2000 are straight-thru, so I rejumpered the drive to the first drive (D0 of 0-3 or D1 of 1-4.) And yes, I checked and double checked to make sure that pin 1 on the motherboard matches pin 1 on the drive! Thanks! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 14 15:56:14 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 13:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tandy 2000 Floppy Drive Replacement In-Reply-To: <45305D7E.54E177E2@rain.org> References: <45305D7E.54E177E2@rain.org> Message-ID: <20061014134921.S54575@shell.lmi.net> > On Fri, 13 Oct 2006, Fred Cisin wrote: > > The Tandy 2000 uses a 720K 5.25" drive. DSDD 96tpi. > > Matsushita (Panasonic, Shugart, etc.) 465 > > Tandon TM100-4 > > Teac 55F > > etc. > > SOME 1.2M drive could work. They need to be jumpered to 300 RPM, "low > > density" recording current, etc. > On Fri, 13 Oct 2006, Marvin Johnston wrote: > Second, IIRC the speed and "low density" recording current are set with jumpers. > What is the etc.? Ready v Disk change (pin 34) termination drive select maybe motor on w/drive select > I might add that when connecting a standard 360K drive, the light comes on and > stays on, and the drive continues to spin when a disk is inserted. This gives me > the impression that there may be something wrong with the disk controller for > the Tandy 2000. The cables for the 2000 are straight-thru, so I rejumpered the > drive to the first drive (D0 of 0-3 or D1 of 1-4.) And yes, I checked and double > checked to make sure that pin 1 on the motherboard matches pin 1 on the drive! Hmmmm. check what is happening on pin 10, 12, 14 of the connector, . . . > First, what other machines used a 5 1/4" 720K drive? I've been looking through > the stash, and so far I haven't found anything. There were a lot. Some machines, such as Otrona, had some submodels with 720K drives, and some with other drives. Here's a few to watch for: Advanced Digital Super 6 Altos CP/M, MP/M AMPRO 96 TPI SS AMPRO 96 TPI DS AOS Applied Micro Technology Archive ARC-1 SS 96TPI ARC Micro Associate 96 TPI ATR 8000 80 Tr. Avatar 96 TPI Bio Research, Inc. Burroughs ET2120 MS-DOS California Computer Systems Canon AS100 MS-DOS Cashcom 100 CMC Intl. Super System 2 Comet MPS 3000 Compis Compupro 10 5x1024 Corvus Concept Cromemco 80 Track Datamac 1265 Datavue DV80 80Tr. DECMATE II Soft-Sect. CP/M DEC Rainbow DEC Rainbow MS-DOS V2.05 Delta Systems Dictaphone 6000 Digital MicroSystems Direct 1080 Discovery 500 Durango Eagle II SS Eagle MP/M, CP/M-86, CP/M DS Eagle MS-DOS Epic FACIT DTC Four Phase 8 RBL Four Phase 16 RBL Heurikon MLZ-91A IBM PC/JX PC-DOS, 3.2 IMS 5000 96 TPI IMS Turbodos Intercontinental Micro Turbodos iPDS CP/M J-Format 10 Sector Quad (R) J-Format 10 Sector Quad -old J-Format 5 Sector Quad (N) Kontron Elektronik Lennartz Electronics CP/M-68K Macsym 150 MP/M-86 MAI/Basic Four Micral 9050 80 Tr. CP/M-86 Micro Craft Dimension 68000 80 Tk Micronix Monroe CP/M Monroe MS-DOS M.S.C. MSC-ICO NEC 640K NEC DOS 2DD (PC9801) Niat Nicolet Paratronics M800 CP/M Nokia Micro Mikko M4 SS Nokia Micro Mikko M6 DS Northern Telecom 503 Olympia People CP/M-86 O.S.M. Zeus 3 O.S.M. Zeus 4 Otrona 96 TPI Otrona 96 TPI MS-DOS PBM 1000 Philips P2012 CP/M Philips P3500/P3800 Turbodos Philips 3000/P5020/Micom CP/M Pied Piper Rair Business Computer MP/M-16 Remanco Reynolds & Reynolds TC1500 512BPS R&R TC1500 1024BPS Sage IV Sage II p-System Sanyo MBC 4050 Seiko 8610 Shasta Shelton Instruments 800K Siemens 1611 CCP/M-86 Siemens MS-DOS SKS 2000 Sord Future 32 2DD512 Sperry UTS-30 Superbrain SD 80 TK Tandy 2000 MS-DOS Technicon Televideo TS1603 CP/M Televideo TS1603 MS-DOS T.M.I. 2100/9110 Toshiba T300 8 sector Toshiba T300 9 sector Visual 1050 Wave Mate Bullet ZAP 8 Zeiss Video Analysis System Zenith Z90 w/Z37 96TPI CP/M From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 14 18:05:51 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 16:05:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 38, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: <20061014180814.60153.qmail@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <20061014180814.60153.qmail@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061014160301.D54575@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006, Al Hartman wrote: > Sounds like you have the Floppy Cable backwards. That is certainly the first reaction to consider that. > Try plugging it in the other way around. > You have Pin 1 and pin 40 flipped. A constant light and spinning motor is the usual symptom of that. 34, not 40. The OP did say that he checked that. Next step might even be as extreme as to make sure that pin 1 position on the board is not mismarked! Yes, that has happened. > Another way to get data off that machine is to use LapLink V and a Serial LapLink Cable. There were several work-alikes to LapLink like FastMove and others. Is the Tandy 2000 compatible enough for that end of the laplink software to work? From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Oct 14 19:18:37 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 19:18:37 -0500 Subject: Help with Apple G3 Parts Message-ID: <008c01c6efef$773b6040$14406b43@66067007> While doing some moving today of items to storage I found that Power Macintosh G3 (Blue and White) tower (family M5183) had both support feet broken. Does anyone have a extra set of these, that they are willing give or sell real cheap? Email me off list please. Thanks John From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 14 19:22:53 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 20:22:53 -0400 Subject: 486 EISA system References: <000f01c6e751$9b4efc90$0b01a8c0@game> <200610040842100739.3DEFF8B5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <001801c6eff0$0ea34b50$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 11:42 AM Subject: Re: 486 EISA system > On 10/3/2006 at 9:08 PM Teo Zenios wrote: > > >Another Ebay find came in today, a 486 EISA motherboard and 5 cards. > > > >The motherboards seems to be this model: > >http://artofhacking.com/th99/m/U-Z/31111.htm , but I can't find a company > >name on it anywhere. It has 8 EISA slots seems to be setup for a 486 DX. > >it looks like there are 2 DALLAS real time clocks on it, and the machine > >complains the eisa config battery is low. Are there any cheap hacks to get > >around this? > > Only one of these is an RTC chip, the other (DS1225V) is an 8Kx8 NVRAM. I > wonder if it might be simplest to replace this one with a similar FRAM > (Ramtron FM-1608) and be done with the battery issue, at least on the one > chip. The Ramtron chip is also cheaper than NOS DS1225Vs, BTW. You might > also be able to carve into the encapsulation with a Dremel to get at the > lithium cell as a very cheap dodge. > > As far as the DS1287 RTC, it's been discussed on the list before (you can > carve into the epoxy and tie into the lithium cell contacts, or you can > just replace the chip). > http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/503 has notes on > replacement. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Just getting back to this project (seems I have been getting too many things in lately). Anyway the 2 battery parts on the motherboard are: Dallas DS1225Y-200 and ST micro MK48T87B-24. Is there a link to the discussion (or website) on how to rig a lithium coin battery to this particular part? I have a dremel, battery holder, and plenty of batteries so this should be easy enough. Can the ST Time keeper RAM) chip also be rigged in this way (is it the same part as the DS1287 mentioned above)? From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 14 19:44:46 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 19:44:46 -0500 Subject: Car repair References: <200610140026.18138.rtellason@verizon.net> <4530E9F9.3060204@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <00fc01c6eff3$203ce170$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Is decidedly off-topic. From owad at applefritter.com Sat Oct 14 20:25:39 2006 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 21:25:39 -0400 Subject: For Sale: PDP 11 and some old HP's in PA Message-ID: <13C66248-278D-4D40-8E75-766FCE7889AF@applefritter.com> I have a PDP-11/23 for sale with the following componets in three 4- foot racks: Pictures: http://www.schnitz.com/pdp/ Rack 1: RL02 PDP-11/23 RL-02 The stuff sitting in front of the rack isn't related. Rack 2: Colorado Video Digitizer Chroma Keyer Decoder Model 4706 Bosch unit Another video-related piece of equipment below that There's some wire-wrapped board sitting it the empty space below that. I'm not sure if it's a part of the system, or if I just stuck it there to save space. i'll pull it out tomorrow and take a look. Rack 3: Memory (possibly some other stuff mixed in there too, but the black units are primarily memory) Power Supply Fan Also included: Cabinet of RL02 cartridges. I recall at least one of the tapes was labeled "System" and something else. I can write down what they're all labeled, if it makesa difference to anybody.) Very large drawing tablet The fellow I bought this from told me it was used to do computer- generated graphics in the '70s and that it cost his company a quarter million dollars. I think it's depreciated since then. I bought it several years ago, but never did anything with it. It sat in his basement, then it sat in my garage. He told me it was working when decommissioned, but that was some time ago and it's utterly as-is. He also said it uses the same memory (behind the black panels) as in the Apple II. I bought a milling machine last week and need the room, so I'd like to see it go relatively soon. I'm in York, PA. I also picked up some HP-85B's at an auction last week. I only wanted two, so the rest are for sale. They came out of storage at a very nice lab and look like they're in great shape. Also available from the same auction is a system configured as follows: HP 9144 (tape drive) HP 7957B (hard drive) HP A-Series Controller 3065ST (board tester?) Make offer. Tom -- Apple I Replica Creation: Back to the Garage By Tom Owad, Foreword by Steve Wozniak About the book: OSNews Review: From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 14 20:36:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 18:36:53 -0700 Subject: 486 EISA system In-Reply-To: <001801c6eff0$0ea34b50$0b01a8c0@game> References: <000f01c6e751$9b4efc90$0b01a8c0@game> <200610040842100739.3DEFF8B5@10.0.0.252> <001801c6eff0$0ea34b50$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200610141836530406.738FF06B@10.0.0.252> On 10/14/2006 at 8:22 PM Teo Zenios wrote: >Anyway the 2 battery parts on the motherboard are: Dallas >DS1225Y-200 and ST micro MK48T87B-24. Is there a link to the discussion (or >website) on how to rig a lithium coin battery to this particular part? I >have a dremel, battery holder, and plenty of batteries so this should be >easy enough. Can the ST Time keeper RAM) chip also be rigged in this way >(is it the same part as the DS1287 mentioned above)? The ST product is a drop-in replacement for the DS1287, and I suspect the location of the battery and crystal is the same as the Dallas part. Here are details on rigging an external battery for the 1287 http://www.mcamafia.de/mcapage0/dsrework.htm As far as the DS1225, I don't know exactly where in the potting resin the battery is located--and I can't seem to locate any online information that would give a clue. You could always dig around and see if the battery's in the middle of the package, as it is in the 1287, but no guarantees. About 10 years ago, RAMTRON published an app note that pretty much said that you could replace the DS1225 with their FM1608 part--I don't recall any specific gotchas. Hope this helps, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 14 20:42:13 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 21:42:13 -0400 Subject: Ferguson Big Board Message-ID: Hey folks. Does anyone have a Ferguson Big Board that they might be interested in unloading? I drooled over their ads in BYTE when I was a kid; I'd love to have one now. I have a pair of 8" drives sitting here just waiting for one. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 14 20:49:02 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 21:49:02 -0400 Subject: 486 EISA system References: <000f01c6e751$9b4efc90$0b01a8c0@game> <200610040842100739.3DEFF8B5@10.0.0.252> <001801c6eff0$0ea34b50$0b01a8c0@game> <200610141836530406.738FF06B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <004d01c6effc$17850b30$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 9:36 PM Subject: Re: 486 EISA system > On 10/14/2006 at 8:22 PM Teo Zenios wrote: > > >Anyway the 2 battery parts on the motherboard are: Dallas > >DS1225Y-200 and ST micro MK48T87B-24. Is there a link to the discussion > (or > >website) on how to rig a lithium coin battery to this particular part? I > >have a dremel, battery holder, and plenty of batteries so this should be > >easy enough. Can the ST Time keeper RAM) chip also be rigged in this way > >(is it the same part as the DS1287 mentioned above)? > > The ST product is a drop-in replacement for the DS1287, and I suspect the > location of the battery and crystal is the same as the Dallas part. > > Here are details on rigging an external battery for the 1287 > > http://www.mcamafia.de/mcapage0/dsrework.htm > > As far as the DS1225, I don't know exactly where in the potting resin the > battery is located--and I can't seem to locate any online information that > would give a clue. You could always dig around and see if the battery's in > the middle of the package, as it is in the 1287, but no guarantees. About > 10 years ago, RAMTRON published an app note that pretty much said that you > could replace the DS1225 with their FM1608 part--I don't recall any > specific gotchas. > > Hope this helps, > Chuck > The ST chip is 2 layers that connect at the ends (seems to be some potting there), I wonder if the battery is on the top player or the bottom. I hope there is enough residual voltage for a meter to read so I know which half I need to disconnect. Nothing on the 1225Y then other then finding a replacement? From ssj152 at charter.net Sat Oct 14 21:14:07 2006 From: ssj152 at charter.net (Stuart Johnson) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 21:14:07 -0500 Subject: PDT-11/150 down Message-ID: <001301c6efff$986bac10$8e00a8c0@badddog> Well, this is my first post to the list in quite a while; most of you may not even remember me... but I have been lurking. Now I have a problem I need help with. I have a PDT-11/150HC, the dual drive model with 32KW and the 3 extra serial ports. It had been working fine, up through last year, when I stored it. I was working on another project, building a PDP-11/53 from a DECServer 550 (like Jonathan Engdahl's) when I needed to copy some floppies. I brought out the trusty old PDT, and of course, it wouldn't work. I am using a VT420 with DECConnect wire and shells to talk to the PDT. The VT and wires are all known good, tested with other equipment. What happens is that when I turn the PDT on and type the 2 "@" characters to set the baud rate (4800), the #2 led properly goes out, the RUN led comes on, but NOTHING comes back to the terminal. Thinking that I needed a NULL MODEM in the cable, I put a MMJ crossover connector block between the terminal and the PDT. Strangely, I had exactly the same results - nothing out on the monitor - with TX and RX swapped how the heck does this happen? As I recall, the usual response is something like "Press B to Boot". In any event, pressing "B" does nothing either. I have performed the self test with the lid off and modules elevated and the result was that the first 4 LED's on the Intelligence Module came on. This is result #17, indicating that either the DISK Controller Module or Cable G1 has failed and need to be replaced - impossible, at least in the case of the Disk Module. Besides, what does this have to do with no response on the terminal? My next step is to test the power supply and trace power to the various modules, as per the Mini-Maintenance manual. I'm hoping that someone on the list is more familiar with the PDT and can offer useful suggestions that might shorten an exhaustive troubleshooting effort - I'm not really up to it. I have as resources 3 books, 1) The PDT 11/150 User Guide (EK-PT150UG-001), 2) The PDT 11/150 Installation Guide (EK-PT150-IN-002), and 3) The PDT 11/150 Mini-Maintenance Hardware Guide (EK-PT150-J1-002). I would very much like to get a copy of EK-PT150-TM, the Technical manual, in print or PDF format. I also have the usual DVM, a Tektronix 2215 dual channel scope, and the memories of being an electronics technician (with a radiotelephone license) during my late 20's, a lifetime ago. I spent the last 20 years of my so-called career as a systems programmer and am now retired. Can someone that knows about the PDT assist me? All useful input appreciated! Stuart Johnson Ssj152 AT charter DOT net Old man, Old hobby From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sat Oct 14 21:15:10 2006 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 12:15:10 +1000 Subject: Monochrome video cable ? References: <000f01c6e751$9b4efc90$0b01a8c0@game><200610040842100739.3DEFF8B5@10.0.0.252><001801c6eff0$0ea34b50$0b01a8c0@game><200610141836530406.738FF06B@10.0.0.252> <004d01c6effc$17850b30$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <010001c6efff$c03251e0$0100a8c0@pentium> Anyone have a monochrome cable they'd be willing to sell or part with ? Specifically (sp?) the cable is one that needs to fit a Commodore 1402 (the little 8" x 6" green screen one) that has the usual D connector for the card & a 6 pin round male connector for the monitor. cheers, Lance // http://www.commodore128.org Commodore 128 forums & more! // From rickb at bensene.com Sat Oct 14 21:39:05 2006 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 19:39:05 -0700 Subject: 12/24-bit CPUs, was Re: Oregon Software Pascal/2 Message-ID: On Oct 13, 2006, at 2:32 PM, woodelf wrote: > So how many people have a working 24 bit computer on *this* list > at home or in storage? I may end up building a 24/12 bit design > ( the PCB layout and hardware design is my problem ) but designing > a schematic is not. I unfortunately don't have it (I had a chance, but didn't have a place to put it), but in high school, the school had a 24-bit computer. Quite an interesting machine. It used 8K-word magnetic drum memory. There were two complete redundant CPUs, each with their own 8K drum. There was a "shared register" between the two machines that could be used for inter-CPU communication. The machines also shared a very interesting I/O system that was housed in a large cabinet. The I/O system consisted of a Current Loop interface for an ASR-33 teletype (as well as paper tape reader control), an interface for a wide-carriage IBM output typewriter (individual typebars, not a Selectric-style device), and a large number of digital input and output ports, a number of programmable counters (to be used as interval timers), along with a bunch of A/D and D/A channels. There was also a BCD real-time clock which kept track of the time of day in hours/minutes/seconds, and also toggled a bank of flip flops at various rates which could be polled (no interrupts existed on the machine) to track time in various increments (1/2, 1/4, 1/8 and 1/16-th second intervals, if I remember correctly). There was also a set of thumbwheel numeric input switches which could be read, which, if I recall correctly, was 6 digits long, BCD encoded. The machine was all transistorized. No ICs anywhere. The machine was made by 3M Corp. (Minnesota Mining & Manufacturing). It was a process control machine. Its original use was as a natural gas pipeline pressure monitoring and control system by Northwest Natural Gas Co. in Portland, Oregon. After it was retired, it was donated to our high school. When I started at the high school, one of the drums had failed, so one CPU was inoperative. But, the other worked well. It was a two address machine, with operand address, and next instruction address. Addresses were of the form block/track/sector as the drum was organized. The instruction set was pretty simple, there were five bits in the opcode. There was an accumulator (24 bits), and a "B" register which could be used for temporary storage. The accumulator and B register were discrete registers, not located on the drum. Master timing for the machine was generated by a pre-written clock track on the drum, so all operations of the machine were synchronized with the drum rotation. Some kind of phase locked loop or the like was used to keep the drum rotating at a consistent speed (I think it was 3,600 RPM). The instruction set documentation had a "for optimum programming" section for each instruction, which provided formulas for the operand address and next instruction address to minimize the access time for the instruction. Typically, the operand address was the current address + 3, and the next instruction address was the current address + 6. Using these formulas would mean that the operand would be under the head after the instruction was fetched and decoded, and the next instruction would be under the head when the operation was completed. There were no index registers or base registers or anything like that. Addressing tables and such had to be performed by instruction modification, e.g., load an instruction into the accumulator, increment (or add 3 for optimum programming) to the operand address, store the accumulator back over the top of the instruction, then execute the modified instruction. Made list processing, stacks, and the like rather tedious. Each CPU was in a "drawer" about 8 to 10 rack units high. The drum was located in the center of the chassis, with circuit boards (which, IIRC, were about 7" long, and 5" wide) plugged into a backplane in the shape of a "U" around the drum. The two CPUs mounted in a small rack one atop the other. Controls for the CPU were simple. STOP, START, CLEAR, and LOAD. Clear cleared all of the working registers, and set the program counter to Block 0/Track 0/Sector 0, and halted the machine. Stop halted the computer after the execution of the current instruction was completed. START began program execution. LOAD put the machine into a hardwired loader that would allow address/data pairs to be loaded into the drum from the paper tape reader on the ASR-33. The address and data were expected in octal, with a space separating the address and the data. These controls were momentary pushbuttons, with the START, STOP, and LOAD buttons lit to indicate when the machine was running, halted, or in LOAD mode. Five indicators would show the opcode of the current instruction. I seem to recall that it was possible to single-instruction step the machine by putting the machine into STOP mode, then holding the STOP button down when pressing the RUN button at the same time, but this memory could be incorrect. There was a two-pass assembler called SOAP that could be loaded from tape, then the source run through the paper tape reader twice, with the resulting object code stored on the drum. SOAP was pretty big, though, about 4K resident, which meant that you couldn't write anything much larger than about 4K in size with the assembler. I had spent time at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry (OMSI) on their "Straight 8" PDP-8 System, and had learned FOCAL. I decided to try to write FOCAL on the 3M machine. I actually got to it to the point where small programs could be entered, edited, and executed. It did integer math only (24 bit), as floating point simply wouldn't have fit. When a line of code was entered, and the RETURN key hit, it would take about 1.5 seconds for the line to be parsed, error checked, and stored. This machine was not very fast. I wrote quite a few programs for this machine, including a blackjack game, tic tac toe, an alarm clock (you'd enter the time on the thumbwheel switches, and when the time came along, the teletype would ring the bell). Never got the IBM output typewriter working. It had mechanical problems (probably needed a thorough cleaning and lubrication). After I graduated from high school, the machine didn't get much attention. Someone tried powering it up at one point, and the drum in the still operating CPU failed..bearings went bad, and (fixed) heads crashed. The school eventually moved to a new building two years after I graduated, and that's when I had the opportunity to take the machine, but I had no place to put it, nor any way to move it. It was rather large (and heavy). The cabinetry was all painted a dark blue color. A white formica table top sat on top of the two CPUs in their small rack, and on top was a console with the real-time clock (using incandescent displays that had a GE-47-style lamp that shined through a piece of film that had the digit on it, which projected the digit on the a satin-finish plastic display screen). The clock was not made by 3M, but by someone else, was about 6 rack units high, and had pushbuttons to manually advance the hours, minutes, and seconds. It was implemented with transistor logic, connected as ring counters for each digit. Also on this panel was the six-digit thumbwheel numeric entry device. The IBM typewriter sat to the right of this panel. The controls for the CPUs were mounted on the front plate of each CPU drawer. To the left of the CPU drawers was the large cabinet that housed all of the I/O circuitry. It was crammed full of transistorized modules that plugged into a massive backplane. Each CPU had its own power supply, as well as the I/O cabinet, and the realtime clock. Each CPU needed a 20A 110V circuit. The I/O cabinet needed a 30A 110V circuit. The clock, IBM typewriter, and Teletype had their own 20A 110V circuit. I've been unable to remember the model number of this machine. I recall that it was 4 digits long. At one time, I had a big binder which contained a bunch of documentation for the machine, including the instruction set information, some information about the I/O subsystem programming, and also complete schematics for the CPU. I've searched and searched for it, and can't find it -- so I think that it must have been lost or accidentally tossed in one of many moves. I've searched high and low on the web looking for any references of any computers made by 3M, and have found nothing. My guess is that they didn't made computers for a very long period of time. My recollection is that the date on the documentation was 1965, but not sure of this. Anyway, probably a whole lot more here than anyone cares about, but it is my hope that perhaps someone out there may recall a machine like this made by 3M. Sure had a lot of fun playing with that machine. Learned a great deal from it. The mainstay computing at our highschool was an HP timeshare system (initially, HP 2000C, advancing over the years to a 2000C', 2000F, then 2000/Access) which were accessed by dial-up ASR-33 teletypes. A "closed" BASIC environment, which was great, but no machine-level programming. I learned a great deal about "how computers work" from the old 3M machine. Thanks for letting me spew out all these memories. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Oct 14 21:39:39 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 15:39:39 +1300 Subject: 486 EISA system In-Reply-To: <004d01c6effc$17850b30$0b01a8c0@game> References: <000f01c6e751$9b4efc90$0b01a8c0@game> <200610040842100739.3DEFF8B5@10.0.0.252> <001801c6eff0$0ea34b50$0b01a8c0@game> <200610141836530406.738FF06B@10.0.0.252> <004d01c6effc$17850b30$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: On 10/15/06, Teo Zenios wrote: > The ST chip is 2 layers that connect at the ends (seems to be some potting > there), I wonder if the battery is on the top player or the bottom. I hope > there is enough residual voltage for a meter to read so I know which half I > need to disconnect. > > Nothing on the 1225Y then other then finding a replacement? If I understand what you are describing, it sounds like the same style as Sun "NVRAMs" - you are looking at a 24-pin part with no "missing pins" bent up into the battery area, but with the attachments between the chip and the battery at the ends. You might even be able to see some light between the battery and the chip portions of the package. If that sounds like what you have, the battery is in the top, and the IC is in the bottom, I don't recally off the top of my head if the battery leads are in the front or the back, but embedded in that potting compound are two flat IC leads close together on the same end. You can scrape off the potting compound to expose the leads, then check them with a meter. If you are close to 3V, the battery is probably OK. If you are under 2V (ISTR seeing 1.7 from essentially dead Li cells), you need a new battery. What I have done with a Sun NVRAM (ST MK48T2) is to break the leads at the end of the chip, disconnecting the battery, then soldering on two wires - I happened to use a lead from a 9V battery-powered device - then attaching a battery to those leads. In my rig, I had a spare solder-on motherboard Li coin cell with factory-bonded solderable leads - I soldered it to the snap-top of a dead 9V battery. These days, I'd probably glue a coin-cell holder to the top of the NVRAM if there was vertical clearance in the case to install it that way. Whatever technique you use, don't solder directly to the battery casing. OTOH, if you just want to replace it, the successor product is the 1225AB http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2646 I think you should be OK with an MK48Z08 as well - it's just an 8Kbyte SRAM, no clock (unlike an MK48T08 as used in SPARC2s, etc). No matter what you use, the battery life is approx 10 years whether it's in a powered-on device or not - the leakage current is higher than the current used by the SRAM, so the RAM chip isn't what drains the battery - it's time. -ethan From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Oct 14 21:59:39 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 19:59:39 -0700 Subject: Decwriter II LA 36 In-Reply-To: References: <000f01c6e751$9b4efc90$0b01a8c0@game> <200610040842100739.3DEFF8B5@10.0.0.252> <001801c6eff0$0ea34b50$0b01a8c0@game> <200610141836530406.738FF06B@10.0.0.252> <004d01c6effc$17850b30$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <4531A41B.5020307@sbcglobal.net> I saw this on Craigslist, don't know if it's still available. Thought someone could use it. Bob http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/zip/217538995.html From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 14 22:42:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 20:42:31 -0700 Subject: 486 EISA system In-Reply-To: <004d01c6effc$17850b30$0b01a8c0@game> References: <000f01c6e751$9b4efc90$0b01a8c0@game> <200610040842100739.3DEFF8B5@10.0.0.252> <001801c6eff0$0ea34b50$0b01a8c0@game> <200610141836530406.738FF06B@10.0.0.252> <004d01c6effc$17850b30$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200610142042310034.7402F307@10.0.0.252> On 10/14/2006 at 9:49 PM Teo Zenios wrote: >The ST chip is 2 layers that connect at the ends (seems to be some potting >there), I wonder if the battery is on the top player or the bottom. I hope >there is enough residual voltage for a meter to read so I know which half I >need to disconnect. The datasheet for the ST chip is here: http://www.datasheet4u.com/download.php?id=531672 and clearly says that the battery is in the "top hat", so Ethan's approach shows a lot of promise. >Nothing on the 1225Y then other then finding a replacement? Well, you can try the same method on it and see if you turn up a battery. Otherwise, replacements (either original or FRAM) are inexpensive and available. Cheers, Chuck From nospam at truenames.co.uk Sun Oct 15 06:00:30 2006 From: nospam at truenames.co.uk (Julian Learmonth) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 12:00:30 +0100 Subject: Free to good home (Hampshire, UK) Message-ID: <1160910030.21293.12.camel@wintermute.truenames.co.uk> Hi All, I'm afraid that I no longer have the room to keep either my DEC VAX 4000/705A or my DEC AlphaServer 2000. Both are in working condition. Please note that the Vax is DSSI, not SCSI and has no disks, but does netboot NetBSD/VAX nicely. It also has an internal DSSI DLT (unknown condition as I have no tapes). ==== Hardware specs ==== VAX 4000/705A (aka Legacy+) NVAX CPU (45 VUPS), 256Mb RAM, DSSI, no disks. Running NetBSD/VAX 1.5 ALPHA SERVER 2000 (aka Sable) Dual 21064 200MHz CPUs, 196Mb RAM, SCSI RAID, 6x 4Gb HDD. Running Tru64 5.x ==== Both machines come from when I used to work at Racal. The Alpha comes with media and documentation. The VAX doesn't. I also have a couple of cisco 2500 routers up for grabs too. Thanks, Jules. P.S. my "nospam" email address is real... From dbwood at kc.rr.com Sun Oct 15 10:46:34 2006 From: dbwood at kc.rr.com (dbwood at kc.rr.com) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 10:46:34 -0500 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <200610121023140755.677F4AA0@10.0.0.252> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452DC6D8.8040105@jetnet.ab.ca> <452E69D6.1060103@yahoo.co.uk> <200610121023140755.677F4AA0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Guzis Date: Thursday, October 12, 2006 12:30 pm Subject: Re: MSDOS Source code leaked To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > An interesting bit of the archie is that it includes the source for > qbasic... Where did you see that? I found the binary for QBASIC, but I didn't see the source. Douglas Wood From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 15 11:28:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 09:28:31 -0700 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452DC6D8.8040105@jetnet.ab.ca> <452E69D6.1060103@yahoo.co.uk> <200610121023140755.677F4AA0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200610150928310479.76C03F17@10.0.0.252> On 10/15/2006 at 10:46 AM dbwood at kc.rr.com wrote: >Where did you see that? I found the binary for QBASIC, but I didn't >see the source. Take a look at the /45 directory. In particular, note the build instructions in README.TXT. There's quite a bit of code here and it appears to include all of the utilities (MASM, CL, etc.) needed to build QB for various languages. It might be that something's missing, but it looks pretty complete to me. It's interesting how much code has 1986 as the origin date. One of these days, I'll see if the thing will actually build. Cheers, Chuck From ygehrich at yahoo.com Sun Oct 15 14:20:18 2006 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 15:20:18 -0400 Subject: DOS answering machine ??? In-Reply-To: <200610150928310479.76C03F17@10.0.0.252> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452DC6D8.8040105@jetnet.ab.ca> <452E69D6.1060103@yahoo.co.uk> <200610121023140755.677F4AA0@10.0.0.252> <200610150928310479.76C03F17@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061015151637.05baa878@yahoo.com> I have a large amount (many hundreds) of old software and got the following request: ======================= I am looking for a DOS program to turn my computer into an answering machine. ================================= Does any body remember the names of DOS programs that might do the job for him? I know that I had some software that came with a modem that turned it into an answering machine. Not sure if it was DOS or early Windows. From drb at msu.edu Sun Oct 15 14:35:35 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 15:35:35 -0400 Subject: vtserver, zrqch0 Message-ID: <200610151935.k9FJZZNL020853@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> I've assembled a basic PDP-11/53ish machine from parts. The CPU is from a DECserver 550, converted back into an 11/53 by EPROM swaps. It has an RQDX3 and cable management board, and a Seagate ST-251 (40 MB MFM) drive. This is all installed in a BA213. So far, I haven't managed to get a load device working. I have an RX50, but it seems unwilling to work. I'm trying to format the disk. Jonathan Engdahl describes a trick to bootstrap XXDP utilities using vtserver: http://home.alltel.net/engdahl/xxdp.htm Vtserver does its magic, ODT-ing in the loader, and transferring the modified ZRQCH0 binary (from XXDP 2.5). At this point, the machine seems to hang: @p Opened xboot.dd read-write rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr EOF2 45Boot from vt(0,0,0) at 0177560 : vt(0,0,1) Opened ZRQCH0 read-write rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr EOF2 Boot: bootdev=06401 bootcsr=0177560 I have to cycle power to regain control. Help please. Has anyone else ever tried this? Thanks, De From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Oct 15 15:29:57 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 15:29:57 -0500 Subject: ID of Tomy Controller Message-ID: <00b501c6f098$b360d240$2f406b43@66067007> In a plastic bag at a local thrift I found a Tomy TP1103 blue/white controller, but I can not find anything on using google. Anyone know what system(s) this model works with? Thanks in advance for your help. From feedle at feedle.net Sun Oct 15 15:35:36 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C Sullivan) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 13:35:36 -0700 Subject: ID of Tomy Controller In-Reply-To: <00b501c6f098$b360d240$2f406b43@66067007> References: <00b501c6f098$b360d240$2f406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <45329B98.8020305@feedle.net> Keys wrote: > In a plastic bag at a local thrift I found a Tomy TP1103 blue/white > controller, but I can not find anything on using google. Anyone know > what system(s) this model works with? Thanks in advance for your help. The Tomy Tutor. http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/tomy/ From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Oct 15 15:46:50 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 13:46:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ID of Tomy Controller In-Reply-To: <45329B98.8020305@feedle.net> from C Sullivan at "Oct 15, 6 01:35:36 pm" Message-ID: <200610152046.k9FKkoM3017852@floodgap.com> > > In a plastic bag at a local thrift I found a Tomy TP1103 blue/white > > controller, but I can not find anything on using google. Anyone know > > what system(s) this model works with? Thanks in advance for your help. > > The Tomy Tutor. http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/tomy/ Darn, you beat me to it. :) I'll be exhibiting the full Tomy Tutor family at VCF 9, including the Tutor, the Pyuuta, the Pyuuta Jr. and the Pyuuta Mk II. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The best defense against logic is ignorance. ------------------------------- From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Oct 15 17:02:59 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 23:02:59 +0100 Subject: somewhat OT: the return of decimal mode In-Reply-To: <200610121613.k9CGDclw098181@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200610121613.k9CGDclw098181@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002519B2-FC11-4A64-8A62-7571C370EF2D@microspot.co.uk> > From: woodelf > I think the thing that killed BCD computers is thae lack of > BCD memory addressing. Some BCD computers had BCD memory addressing. Also BCD instructions, though full binary data for masking. Roger Holmes From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Sun Oct 15 17:07:25 2006 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 23:07:25 +0100 Subject: Free to good home (Hampshire, UK) In-Reply-To: <1160910030.21293.12.camel@wintermute.truenames.co.uk> References: <1160910030.21293.12.camel@wintermute.truenames.co.uk> Message-ID: <4532B11D.7020607@retrobbs.org> Julian Learmonth wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm afraid that I no longer have the room to keep either my DEC VAX > 4000/705A or my DEC AlphaServer 2000. Both are in working condition. > Please note that the Vax is DSSI, not SCSI and has no disks, but does > netboot NetBSD/VAX nicely. It also has an internal DSSI DLT (unknown > condition as I have no tapes). > > ==== > Hardware specs > ==== > VAX 4000/705A (aka Legacy+) > NVAX CPU (45 VUPS), 256Mb RAM, DSSI, no disks. Running NetBSD/VAX 1.5 > > ALPHA SERVER 2000 (aka Sable) > Dual 21064 200MHz CPUs, 196Mb RAM, SCSI RAID, 6x 4Gb HDD. Running Tru64 > 5.x > ==== > > Both machines come from when I used to work at Racal. The Alpha comes > with media and documentation. The VAX doesn't. > > I also have a couple of cisco 2500 routers up for grabs too. > > Thanks, > Jules. > P.S. my "nospam" email address is real... > > > > I'd take it, but my wife is (as my chav daughter would say) "giving me evils"... -- "Survival kit contents check. In them you'll find: one forty-five caliber automatic; two boxes of ammunition; four days' concentrated emergency rations; one drug issue containing antibiotics, morphine, vitamin pills, pep pills, sleeping pills, tranquilizer pills; one miniature combination Russian phrase book and Bible; one hundred dollars in rubles; one hundred dollars in gold; nine packs of chewing gum; one issue of prophylactics; three lipsticks; three pair of nylon stockings. Shoot, a fella' could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff." From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Sun Oct 15 17:28:44 2006 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 23:28:44 +0100 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30361AE@MEOW.catcorner.org> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30361AE@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <4532B61C.5000201@retrobbs.org> Kelly Leavitt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mark Firestone >> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 7:05 PM >> To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 >> >> >> Anyone know what happened to Oregon Software.... or where to find >> Pascal/2 for RSTS/E. I want it for my PDP emulator... >> because it is the >> language I learned to program with. >> >> None of that String bollox, real men use Array[1.80] of Char; >> > > I have it for Xenix on the TRS-80 model 16, but I don't think that helps much. > > Kelly > > > > Wild! I haven't seen one of those in about 20 years. -- "Survival kit contents check. In them you'll find: one forty-five caliber automatic; two boxes of ammunition; four days' concentrated emergency rations; one drug issue containing antibiotics, morphine, vitamin pills, pep pills, sleeping pills, tranquilizer pills; one miniature combination Russian phrase book and Bible; one hundred dollars in rubles; one hundred dollars in gold; nine packs of chewing gum; one issue of prophylactics; three lipsticks; three pair of nylon stockings. Shoot, a fella' could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff." From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Sun Oct 15 17:29:43 2006 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 23:29:43 +0100 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4532B657.9000008@retrobbs.org> Al Kossow wrote: > http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/discimages/rk05/omsiPascal2.1.dsk.gz > > May work under the RT RTS > > > > > > Thanks. I'm not sure how to try to use it, beyond mounting it in SIMH. I'll have a look. -- "Survival kit contents check. In them you'll find: one forty-five caliber automatic; two boxes of ammunition; four days' concentrated emergency rations; one drug issue containing antibiotics, morphine, vitamin pills, pep pills, sleeping pills, tranquilizer pills; one miniature combination Russian phrase book and Bible; one hundred dollars in rubles; one hundred dollars in gold; nine packs of chewing gum; one issue of prophylactics; three lipsticks; three pair of nylon stockings. Shoot, a fella' could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with all that stuff." From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 15 18:19:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 16:19:52 -0700 Subject: DOS answering machine ??? In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20061015151637.05baa878@yahoo.com> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <452DC6D8.8040105@jetnet.ab.ca> <452E69D6.1060103@yahoo.co.uk> <200610121023140755.677F4AA0@10.0.0.252> <200610150928310479.76C03F17@10.0.0.252> <7.0.1.0.2.20061015151637.05baa878@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200610151619520038.7838D69F@10.0.0.252> On 10/15/2006 at 3:20 PM Gene Ehrich wrote: >======================= >I am looking for a DOS program to turn my computer into an answering >machine. >================================= You may find that many DOS modem programs are tied to a given manufacturer's modem. One I can remember was VoiceConnect for Zyxel modems. At least one version ran under MS-DOS. I'll dig around and see if I can find any more. But even Windoze 3.1 will give you vastly more choices in software. Cheers, Chuck From rcini at optonline.net Sun Oct 15 19:11:06 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 20:11:06 -0400 Subject: Tandy 2000 boot roms needed Message-ID: <003801c6f0b7$93ad5710$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I was able to get copies of the Tandy 2000 manuals for what is going to be a pretty challenging emulation project that I've undertaken. Since I don't have a 2000 system I was wondering if someone on the list who has one would be able to make copies of the BIOS ROMs from their machine. The BIOS/boot software is contained in two ROMs at locations U47 and U48. U47 is the "odd" rom and U48 is the "even" rom. Thanks again. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From kelly at catcorner.org Sun Oct 15 19:25:37 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 20:25:37 -0400 Subject: Tandy 2000 boot roms needed Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30361B2@MEOW.catcorner.org> > I was able to get copies of the Tandy 2000 > manuals for what is > going to be a pretty challenging emulation project that I've > undertaken. > Since I don't have a 2000 system I was wondering if someone > on the list who > has one would be able to make copies of the BIOS ROMs from > their machine. > The BIOS/boot software is contained in two ROMs at locations > U47 and U48. > U47 is the "odd" rom and U48 is the "even" rom. > > > > Thanks again. Rich: I have a running 2000 here, that I can transfer files from. The 2000 does not have a BIOS like a PC. I believe the internal ROMs are just a POST and a boot strap, and the rest of the PC like BIOS is on the MS-DOS boot disk. I have been relayed this information by someone that used to develop and debug the 2000 for Tandy/Radio Shack. Do you know a way to dump them? I guess if I knew their starting address and length I could use debug. I also have Microsoft's Assembler for the 2000. Kelly PS I still owe you a phone call about the 2000s. I have one that I don't need, but it doesn't work. My suspicion is the power supply, but I've taken no time to verify this. This unit includes keyboard, HD controller, 10 meg drive and one or two 720k floppies, depending on the unit. From rcini at optonline.net Sun Oct 15 19:46:25 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 20:46:25 -0400 Subject: Tandy 2000 boot roms needed In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30361B2@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <003d01c6f0bc$823706c0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Kelly: No problem. When I use the term "BIOS" I use it generically. The technical manual for the T2K reads like any other PC-style book with conventional BIOS interrupts (10h=video, 13h=floppy, etc.) From the Technical Reference, I can't tell how much functionality is in those ROMs and how much is contained in the MS-DOS "bios" (which is in IO.SYS). The easiest way I've found to dump them is by pulling them from the board and reading them in an EPROM programmer. If you don't have equipment do that, you can boot the machine and read the chips using BASIC or DEBUG and saving the info to a binary file. Based on my notes, the BIOS is located from 0xFC000 to 0xFFFFF (length: 16,384 bytes). Based on the ROM size (only 16k), I would have agreed that it probably has less functionality than the typical PC-style BIOS. But, I went back to the ASM listing of the original PC BIOS and it ORGed at FE000, which would result in an 8k BIOS. Thanks again for the help. I've amassed enough code from various sources that I can probably start coding soon. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kelly Leavitt Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2006 8:26 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Tandy 2000 boot roms needed > I was able to get copies of the Tandy 2000 > manuals for what is > going to be a pretty challenging emulation project that I've > undertaken. > Since I don't have a 2000 system I was wondering if someone > on the list who > has one would be able to make copies of the BIOS ROMs from > their machine. > The BIOS/boot software is contained in two ROMs at locations > U47 and U48. > U47 is the "odd" rom and U48 is the "even" rom. > > > > Thanks again. Rich: I have a running 2000 here, that I can transfer files from. The 2000 does not have a BIOS like a PC. I believe the internal ROMs are just a POST and a boot strap, and the rest of the PC like BIOS is on the MS-DOS boot disk. I have been relayed this information by someone that used to develop and debug the 2000 for Tandy/Radio Shack. Do you know a way to dump them? I guess if I knew their starting address and length I could use debug. I also have Microsoft's Assembler for the 2000. Kelly PS I still owe you a phone call about the 2000s. I have one that I don't need, but it doesn't work. My suspicion is the power supply, but I've taken no time to verify this. This unit includes keyboard, HD controller, 10 meg drive and one or two 720k floppies, depending on the unit. From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Oct 15 19:56:54 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 20:56:54 -0400 Subject: DOS answering machine ??? In-Reply-To: <200610151619520038.7838D69F@10.0.0.252> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20061015151637.05baa878@yahoo.com> <200610151619520038.7838D69F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200610152056.55118.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 15 October 2006 07:19 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/15/2006 at 3:20 PM Gene Ehrich wrote: > >======================= > >I am looking for a DOS program to turn my computer into an answering > >machine. > >================================= > > You may find that many DOS modem programs are tied to a given > manufacturer's modem. One I can remember was VoiceConnect for Zyxel > modems. At least one version ran under MS-DOS. > > I'll dig around and see if I can find any more. But even Windoze 3.1 will > give you vastly more choices in software. Speaking of stuff like that, I have only one modem that I can recall mentioning such capabilities. And it had a couple of audio jacks on the back of it in addition to the usual stuff. Weird little unit, a "Maxtech Netpacer Pro" if I'm remembering right, I couldn't find much on it the last time I searched. That was my way to do dialup for a while here until it got weird after a storm. Now no matter what input you give it on the serial port side it comes back saying "boot>". My guess on this is that the writable storage in it got trashed somehow, but other than that I don't know. Suggestions as to how I might deal with this welcomed, either on or off list. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, dealiest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of spac, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 15 20:17:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 18:17:11 -0700 Subject: DOS answering machine ??? In-Reply-To: <200610152056.55118.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <7.0.1.0.2.20061015151637.05baa878@yahoo.com> <200610151619520038.7838D69F@10.0.0.252> <200610152056.55118.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200610151817110334.78A43F63@10.0.0.252> On 10/15/2006 at 8:56 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >That was my way to do dialup for a while here until it got weird after a >storm. Now no matter what input you give it on the serial port side it >comes >back saying "boot>". My guess on this is that the writable storage in it >got >trashed somehow, but other than that I don't know. Suggestions as to how >I >might deal with this welcomed, either on or off list. Well, you might try running the V.90 upgrade package for the modem (I assume that you've got a XPVS56E http://www.maxtech.com/html/fl-modems.html Dunno if your modem is responsive enough to accept it, but it's a guess. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Oct 15 20:32:43 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 21:32:43 -0400 Subject: DOS answering machine ??? In-Reply-To: <200610151817110334.78A43F63@10.0.0.252> References: <452DBEBE.3090305@oldskool.org> <200610152056.55118.rtellason@verizon.net> <200610151817110334.78A43F63@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200610152132.44191.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 15 October 2006 09:17 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/15/2006 at 8:56 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >That was my way to do dialup for a while here until it got weird after a > >storm. Now no matter what input you give it on the serial port side it > >comes back saying "boot>". My guess on this is that the writable storage > >in it got trashed somehow, but other than that I don't know. Suggestions > >as to how I might deal with this welcomed, either on or off list. > > Well, you might try running the V.90 upgrade package for the modem (I > assume that you've got a XPVS56E You prompted me to dig into the modems box and pull the unit out -- and you've nailed the model number exactly, though that number only appears on a paper sticker and the nameplace actually says "Model SF-1156V/T4" on it. > http://www.maxtech.com/html/fl-modems.html Too bad the only thing I see there are .exe files. The one for that model seems to be an LHA self-extracting file, I guess I'll try and see what can be extracted from it under linux... > Dunno if your modem is responsive enough to accept it, but it's a guess. Might be worth a shot. Thanks. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, dealiest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of spac, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rickb at bensene.com Sun Oct 15 20:35:59 2006 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 18:35:59 -0700 Subject: DOS answering machine ??? Message-ID: > >I am looking for a DOS program to turn my computer into an answering > >machine. There was a dedicated ISA-bus card for the PC called "Watson" that did exactly that under DOS. It had a character-based user-interface. It allowed remote access to the voicemail boxes. It could also serve as a "demon dialer", intercepting touch tone signals to do speed dialing and other functions. The device had two RJ-11 jacks, one for the phone line coming into the house, and the other which fed all of the rest of the phones in the house. It could also, with optional software, be set up as a basic AVR system. It could also serve as a 1200-baud (IIRC) modem. I don't recall any FAX capabilities. I have one of these around somewhere, and even the "voicemail" software (on 5 1/4" DOS floppies), along with the documentation. I used it for quite some time on a clone "XT"-class machine utilizing a NEC-made 8088-compatible micrprocessor. It worked pretty well, though the biggest problem was that there was no indication at the phone that voicemail was waiting. You either had to check it, or go to the PC to see if there were messages. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From evan at snarc.net Sun Oct 15 20:48:18 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 21:48:18 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sony Typecorder Message-ID: <001f01c6f0c5$27806fb0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Anybody have one of these? It's an electronic word processor from 1980. It looks similar to the Epson HX-20 (microcassette drive, same "slate" form factor, etc.), but it's just a WP, not a full computer. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 15 22:38:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 20:38:34 -0700 Subject: DOS answering machine ??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200610152038340565.7925AF5A@10.0.0.252> While we're discussing answering machines, etc., I should mention that I've got not one, but two Toshiba Infinia systems loaded with Win95. It includes not only the usual Data/FAX modem, but a through-connection to the sound card for answering machine and voice mailbox facilities. Oh yeah, it also include a TV and FM radio card. The software is something belonging to Intel called Synchro Connect. The machine has power management that pops into "sleep" mode after inactivity and will wake up to answer the phone or (via a button on the front panel, or on the remote control console or the wireless remote control) wake up for normal PeeCee type use. The answering machine isn't half bad, but I've got an answering machine that consumes negligible power and has a battery backup to save things in case of power failure, so what's the point? Didn't IBM also introduce a Win9x based PeeCee "multimedia computer" at around the same time? (1996-98--probably violates the 10 year rule, but is interesting enough that it merits a mention in that it tried to be the Swiss Army knife of home peecees.) Cheers, Chuck From safehaus at webhart.net Sun Oct 15 23:03:36 2006 From: safehaus at webhart.net (Greg Purvis) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 00:03:36 -0400 Subject: AMBRA 486 - How To Access BIOS (Follow-up) In-Reply-To: <007401c6e3e1$7c118eb0$3201a8c0@hal> References: <007401c6e3e1$7c118eb0$3201a8c0@hal> Message-ID: <45330498.4090402@webhart.net> I found out that CTL-ALT-S is pressed during boot-up, to access the Ambra Sprinta's setup page. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Oct 16 00:09:22 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:09:22 -0700 Subject: DOS answering machine ??? --> Complete PC In-Reply-To: <200610152038340565.7925AF5A@10.0.0.252> References: <200610152038340565.7925AF5A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <45331402.2000400@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: >While we're discussing answering machines, etc., > I don't have a modem based answering machine, but a 286 dos box running CompletePC. It involved an add in board set of some number of revisions. The company was one of those with the "we have the best ever, look out" attitude and were not that great. Nor was the technology open so that other things could be done with it, but it was workable, and I ran it for probably 10 or 12 years. I just saw my pile of stuff that ran it, if anyone else ran it. I think the dregs of the company after it imploded was bought up by Boca research, and then vanished. It ran nicely on a 286 system and dos for the time, and really didn't ever run well with Windows. I never liked the windows interface when I tried it, and stayed with the dos box. The thing it offered was remote retrieval of messages, and I could do some amount of remote control with a dial in. Jim From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 16 00:21:55 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:21:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DOS answering machine ??? In-Reply-To: <200610152038340565.7925AF5A@10.0.0.252> from Chuck Guzis at "Oct 15, 6 08:38:34 pm" Message-ID: <200610160521.k9G5LtTT009282@floodgap.com> > Didn't IBM also introduce a Win9x based PeeCee "multimedia computer" at > around the same time? (1996-98--probably violates the 10 year rule, but is > interesting enough that it merits a mention in that it tried to be the > Swiss Army knife of home peecees.) There was the Tandy Sensation!, I remember that. That ran 3.1. I don't remember if it had phone answering capabilities, but it did have most of the other "MPC" spec goodies. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A baby is God's opinion that the world should go on. -- Carl Sandburg ------ From cheri-post at web.de Mon Oct 16 02:09:09 2006 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 09:09:09 +0200 Subject: DEC RA90/RA92 error codes Message-ID: <1543598894@web.de> Hi everybody, does anybody have documentation for the RA9x drives, which goes beyond the user's guide ? A friend of mine has several drives which are faulty and display the type of error with an error code in the display. Unfortunately, the user's guide, which can be found online, doesn't reveal all these codes. Maybe there is a sort of maintenance guide somewhere ? I don't even know, if DEC ever published schematics of these drives, as they appeared on the market in the very early '90s... can anybody confirm that or do schematics exist somewhere? I'm personaly interested, too, as I'm running a SA800 and some additional stand-alone RA92 drives. So far, they have been fine, but this can change any time... Kind regards, Pierre _______________________________________________________________________ Viren-Scan f?r Ihren PC! Jetzt f?r jeden. Sofort, online und kostenlos. Gleich testen! http://www.pc-sicherheit.web.de/freescan/?mc=022222 From ray at arachelian.com Mon Oct 16 08:50:44 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 09:50:44 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sony Typecorder In-Reply-To: <001f01c6f0c5$27806fb0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001f01c6f0c5$27806fb0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <45338E34.6010708@arachelian.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Anybody have one of these? It's an electronic word processor from 1980. It > looks similar to the Epson HX-20 (microcassette drive, same "slate" form > factor, etc.), but it's just a WP, not a full computer. > I do, it's a nice little machine. Mine I think didn't quite work right. It worked on something like 4 AA batteries and saved its data on the microcassette as you mentioned. Looks like a little laptop with a (single?) line LCD - kind of like the Tandy 100. From evan at snarc.net Mon Oct 16 09:24:29 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 10:24:29 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sony Typecorder In-Reply-To: <45338E34.6010708@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <000a01c6f12e$cb0f6050$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> But as I understand it, there's no "computing" there except for the word processor. Is that correct? -----Original Message----- From: Ray Arachelian [mailto:ray at arachelian.com] Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 9:51 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Sony Typecorder Evan Koblentz wrote: > Anybody have one of these? It's an electronic word processor from > 1980. It looks similar to the Epson HX-20 (microcassette drive, same > "slate" form factor, etc.), but it's just a WP, not a full computer. > I do, it's a nice little machine. Mine I think didn't quite work right. It worked on something like 4 AA batteries and saved its data on the microcassette as you mentioned. Looks like a little laptop with a (single?) line LCD - kind of like the Tandy 100. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 16 09:25:55 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 10:25:55 -0400 Subject: DOS answering machine ??? --> Complete PC In-Reply-To: <45331402.2000400@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200610161426.k9GEQ4lL084552@keith.ezwind.net> On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:09:22 -0700, jim stephens wrote: >I don't have a modem based answering machine, but a 286 dos box >running CompletePC. It involved an add in board set of some number >of revisions. >The company was one of those with the "we have the best ever, look >out" attitude and were not that great. Nor was the technology open >so that other things could be done with it, but it was workable, and I >ran it for probably 10 or 12 years. >I just saw my pile of stuff that ran it, if anyone else ran it. >I think the dregs of the company after it imploded was bought up >by Boca research, and then vanished. >It ran nicely on a 286 system and dos for the time, and really >didn't ever run well with Windows. I never liked the windows >interface when I tried it, and stayed with the dos box. >The thing it offered was remote retrieval of messages, and I could >do some amount of remote control with a dial in. >Jim I signed up as a dealor for the CompletePC about 1985'ish when I ran into them at comdex. It supported 99 mailboxes and switch hook forwarding of calles if you had MaBells Centrex lines which supported dialing 9 for an outside call and direct dialing of other extension. There was a guy in Dayton Ohio that buily a multi-line system using the CompletePC cards who purchased my extra cards about 12-15 years back. I kept one, it is in an IDR 386/16 boxed away in storage with the optional fax scanner. The windows 3.1 version left a lot to be desired, I always ran the DOS version. The other Bob From nospam at truenames.co.uk Mon Oct 16 10:56:06 2006 From: nospam at truenames.co.uk (Julian Learmonth) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:56:06 +0100 Subject: Free to good home (Hampshire, UK) Message-ID: <1161014166.31084.15.camel@wintermute.truenames.co.uk> Hi All, There's been some interest in the kit, so here's the answers to the questions that I should really have included in the first email... ;) I would prefer not to have to post anything, so yes, collection is preferred. I'm in all day most Sundays, and after 18:30 during the week. Email me for my address and contact details. The kit is destined for the dump and then landfill if it's not gone my the end of the month. If you can't get to me before the end of the month I will keep stuff, but only if you promise to pick it up ASAP. :) I have also found the following kit to add to the freebie list... * Wangtek 5150ES SCSI QIC internal tape drive. * A.N.Other SCSI DDS2 or 3 SCSI internal tape drive (black). * Grid ruggedised 286 laptop (fully working but no battery, comes with psu) has hdd of indeterminate size and plasma screen, currently running MSDOS. * DEC Alpha 600au workstation (with Tru64 media). * Sun 17" CRT (13W3 connector and converter to HD15, sony tube). Re the two cisco 2500 routers, they are a 2501 and 2514. Each comes with a blue cisco X.21 cable and an AUI to RJ45 converter. Regards, Jules. From kth at srv.net Mon Oct 16 01:20:42 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 00:20:42 -0600 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <001301c6efff$986bac10$8e00a8c0@badddog> References: <001301c6efff$986bac10$8e00a8c0@badddog> Message-ID: <453324BA.1020803@srv.net> Stuart Johnson wrote: >Well, this is my first post to the list in quite a while; most of you may >not even remember me... but I have been lurking. > >Now I have a problem I need help with. I have a PDT-11/150HC, the dual drive >model with 32KW and the 3 extra serial ports. It had been working fine, up >through last year, when I stored it. > >I was working on another project, building a PDP-11/53 from a DECServer 550 >(like Jonathan Engdahl's) when I needed to copy some floppies. I brought out >the trusty old PDT, and of course, it wouldn't work. > >I am using a VT420 with DECConnect wire and shells to talk to the PDT. The >VT and wires are all known good, tested with other equipment. > >What happens is that when I turn the PDT on and type the 2 "@" characters to >set the baud rate (4800), the #2 led properly goes out, the RUN led comes >on, but NOTHING comes back to the terminal. Thinking that I needed a NULL >MODEM in the cable, I put a MMJ crossover connector block between the >terminal and the PDT. Strangely, I had exactly the same results - nothing >out on the monitor - with TX and RX swapped how the heck does this happen? >As I recall, the usual response is something like "Press B to Boot". In any >event, pressing "B" does nothing either. > > To test weither you need a null-modem or not, when you have a 25 pin conector, get one of those RS-232 line monitors (available at RadioShack for < $10.00) which display several of the signals using leds. If both pin 2 and 3 light up, you are probably Ok, If only one lights up, you probably need a null modem. If you then put in a null modem, and still only have one light, you have a bad (cable, interface, etc). >I have performed the self test with the lid off and modules elevated and the >result was that the first 4 LED's on the Intelligence Module came on. >This is result #17, indicating that either the DISK Controller Module or >Cable G1 has failed and need to be replaced - impossible, at least in the >case of the Disk Module. Besides, what does this have to do with no response >on the terminal? > > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 16 11:41:33 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 09:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <453324BA.1020803@srv.net> References: <001301c6efff$986bac10$8e00a8c0@badddog> <453324BA.1020803@srv.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Oct 2006, Kevin Handy wrote: > To test weither you need a null-modem or not, when you > have a 25 pin conector, get one of those RS-232 line > monitors (available at RadioShack for < $10.00) which > display several of the signals using leds. If both pin 2 and > 3 light up, you are probably Ok, If only one lights up, > you probably need a null modem. If you then put in a > null modem, and still only have one light, you have a > bad (cable, interface, etc). I was at a Radio Shack a couple months ago and observed these line monitors being removed from inventory. They said they'd be liquidated by someone else. Jameco may be a more reliable source for this gizmo now. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Oct 16 12:35:08 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:35:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Model M for Murder... Message-ID: <20061016173508.025E958267@mail.wordstock.com> This video tests the myth that you can kill a man with a Model M keyboard and still type on it afterward: http://m.etv.cx/ Cheers, Bryan P.S. I have no relationship with this site other then happening to find it while searching for "RR-Net". From philpem at philpem.me.uk Fri Oct 13 08:38:24 2006 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 14:38:24 +0100 Subject: MSDOS Source code leaked In-Reply-To: <20061013131203.2B77558545@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20061013131203.2B77558545@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <452F96D0.8090401@philpem.me.uk> Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Curt @ Atari Museum >> Anyone watching the progress of reactos.com ??? A Windows XP clone. > > I just tried to, but the webpage seems to be down.. :( That's because the URL is wrong. The correct one is -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny philpem at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From sdc695 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 13 17:42:30 2006 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2006 15:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 (24 bit words) Message-ID: <20061013224230.51604.qmail@web60822.mail.yahoo.com> woodelf Wrote: > Simon Fryer wrote: > > Heya, > > What ever happened to 24 bit words, or is this an easy case? > That is 3 8 bit char's. :) > I was thinking of Dec's machines and rememberd other brands later. > While 24 bit computers were made, I can't think of any off hand. > > Simon Yes, 24 bit machines did exist. In fact before BSD, there was project Genie which made an SDS 930 into an SDS 940 (added paging hardware) and made up a timesharing system. It was the basis of the Tymshare corporation which was formed in the 60's. The machine had (IIRC) 64k of 24 bit words, paged in chunks of 4k words. The technique used what they called "relabeling registers" on the upper 8 bits of the memory address. The software had all sorts of things, including 'forks'. All before Unix (1969). Quite a system for its day. It was the competition to the GE 235 (Later 635) machines that started at Dartmouth. In the early 70's they had a whole bunch of machines in Cupertino under one roof. As for strings: They packed 3 to a word (usually). Trivia: 'BRS 131B' was the system call to crash the system. Just so you know. -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 14 19:23:38 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 20:23:38 -0400 Subject: Tandy 2000 Floppy Drive Replacement Message-ID: <0J75005AKIDUKL23@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Tandy 2000 Floppy Drive Replacement > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 13:56:14 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > The Tandy 2000 uses a 720K 5.25" drive. DSDD 96tpi. >> > Matsushita (Panasonic, Shugart, etc.) 465 >> > Tandon TM100-4 >> > Teac 55F >> > etc. >> > SOME 1.2M drive could work. They need to be jumpered to 300 RPM, "low >> > density" recording current, etc. TEAC FD55GFV jumpered for fixed speed. >> >On Fri, 13 Oct 2006, Marvin Johnston wrote: >> Second, IIRC the speed and "low density" recording current are set with jumpers. >> What is the etc.? > >Ready v Disk change (pin 34) >termination >drive select >maybe motor on w/drive select > >> I might add that when connecting a standard 360K drive, the light comes on and >> stays on, and the drive continues to spin when a disk is inserted. This gives me >> the impression that there may be something wrong with the disk controller for >> the Tandy 2000. The cables for the 2000 are straight-thru, so I rejumpered the >> drive to the first drive (D0 of 0-3 or D1 of 1-4.) And yes, I checked and double >> checked to make sure that pin 1 on the motherboard matches pin 1 on the drive! Connector on drive upside down. Drive runs on power up with light lit, doesnt step (may recal on power up depending on drive). NOTE: if the connector is inverted any media inserted is erased for whatever track the head sits at (write enable is active). >DECMATE II Soft-Sect. CP/M DECMATEII (and III) was a RX50 (SSDD 80tr) ~400k Though one later option was RD31(st225 20mb) or RD32 (ST251 40mb) hard disk with RX33 (FD55GFV). DECmateII treated the FD55GFV as a single platter RX50 (single sided) unless teh firmware was above a certain rev. DECmateIII knew RX33. >DEC Rainbow Most DEC machines prior to VAXmate used RX50 a dual drive of 80tracks single sided and about 400k each. >DEC Rainbow MS-DOS V2.05 Again, RX50 though RX33 could be fitted. RX50 remained the "Corperate" floppy drive till VAXmate. There were a few products that used otehr drives but usually from the start. For example Robin (VT180) used either SA400L or TM100s (40 track single sided DD). Allison From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Oct 15 11:09:11 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 17:09:11 +0100 Subject: PDP11 in Biggleswade Message-ID: <45325D27.7050301@gjcp.net> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190038705808 I'm actually quite interested in it, but it would be a bit of a trek to pick it up. Is there anyone down there that wants this, or better still collect it and bring it about half-way up the UK so I can meet them? Gordon (with not enough weekends and evenings to drive the length of the country, sadly). From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Oct 15 16:56:02 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 14:56:02 -0700 Subject: Finding bad RAM chip on PDP11 M7551? Message-ID: <4532AE72.80006@msu.edu> I have a MicroPDP 11/73 I'm trying to get running again; it has a single M7551-AP memory board (1MB) which appears to have a stuck bit; the startup memory test fails with: Expected Data = 125252 Bad Data = 125253 Address = 01400010 Any ideas how to determine which RAM chip needs to be replaced based on the failing address? Thanks, Josh From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Oct 15 18:22:03 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 00:22:03 +0100 Subject: Transition panels and racking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4532C29B.5030309@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > As I've said before it's not the loss of the more obscure stuff that's > the problem -- you can order it from RS components or Farnell. It's the > fact that they keep so few components (if any) in stock in the shops. So > if you run out of 10k resistors, or 2N3904 transsitors, or... you > probably won't get them in the local Maplin shop. I've never had a problem with Maplins in Glasgow (there are two) stocking components. The only problem I had was when I bought *all* their BC182s (around 30 of them) in one go, and still needed more. They had them the next day. Gordon (analogue filters, in case you wondered) From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Oct 16 12:45:57 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 12:45:57 -0500 Subject: Lightning Damage (was: Re: DOS answering machine ??? ) In-Reply-To: <200610161700.k9GH06Bb057854@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200610161700.k9GH06Bb057854@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 10/16/06, Roy Tellason wrote: >That was my way to do dialup for a while here until it got weird after a >storm. This seems to be a recurring theme in posts here. At least here in the central US, thunderstorms are pretty predictable. I have made it SOP for over a decade now to just disconnect classic gear from the wall when one is known to be approaching. (I even have the family trained to do it if I'm not around; it helps that we and our relatives have lost several TV's, stereos, modems, etc. to lightning strikes, so it's not just a theoretical possibility.) I recommend: 1) Plug all of the classic gear into power strips or surge suppressors. Plug the surge suppressors into the wall for normal use, and shut down/unplug the surge suppressor from the wall for storms. 2) Leave commodity stuff connected, if it's convenient. DSL hubs can be disconnected from the wall (and cable or phone line!) or can be left connected, with the ethernet coming out of them disconnected for duration of the storm. Cheapo modern ink-jet printers can be left connected to the wall, but disconnected from the classic computer or classic network. Nice Laserjet 4MP printers, etc. should be disconnected from the wall. 3) Wireless, where practical, makes disconnecting the network easy. A single wireless/ethernet hub, using radio to get to the wall-connected DSL/cablemodem hub, might be a *great* way to air-gap the whole classic network. That would reduce the storm-proofing operation down to a single wall plug (for the power strip). 4) Exercise the same precautions for winter storms - power line outages/restoration of power can do unpredictable things to line voltage and frequency. 5) Do not trust surge suppressors to do the job, either on power lines or on modem/cable lines. They help, but they have limitations. Some a lot more than others. 6) For stuff that is really hard to re-boot, UPS's can help if they are big enough. Disconnect the UPS from the wall and live with the alarm until the thunder dies down (but this assumes a big battery on the UPS, which might not be realistic). I know server stuff that wants to be up 24/7 is hard to do this with, but for really classic equipment, or for anything that's used on-demand (like Roy's modem), it really seems a shame to expose it to ESD death for want of a minute's work walking around the house and pulling plugs. My worst loss so far (knock on wood) has been a Powerbook 3400 internal modem board (visible damage on the board, pictures available on request). But I've been lucky a few times. Comments or further suggestions welcome! -- Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) 210-379-4635 From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Oct 16 13:06:22 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sethm at loomcom.com) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 11:06:22 -0700 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 (24 bit words) In-Reply-To: <20061013224230.51604.qmail@web60822.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061013224230.51604.qmail@web60822.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061016180622.GA20350@motherbrain.nat.squeep.com> On Fri, Oct 13, 2006 at 03:42:30PM -0700, Tom Watson wrote: > Yes, 24 bit machines did exist. In fact before BSD, there was project Genie > which made an SDS 930 into an SDS 940 (added paging hardware) and made up a > timesharing system. It was the basis of the Tymshare corporation which was > formed in the 60's. The machine had (IIRC) 64k of 24 bit words, paged in > chunks of 4k words. The technique used what they called "relabeling registers" > on the upper 8 bits of the memory address. The software had all sorts of > things, including 'forks'. All before Unix (1969). Quite a system for its > day. It was the competition to the GE 235 (Later 635) machines that started at > Dartmouth. In the early 70's they had a whole bunch of machines in Cupertino > under one roof. > > As for strings: They packed 3 to a word (usually). > Trivia: 'BRS 131B' was the system call to crash the system. It's funny, I was just thinking about the SDS 940 this week. SIMH has an emulator for the 940, but so far I have uncovered no software to run on it. Has anyone ever found any GENIE tapes or backups? -Seth From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 16 13:36:05 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 12:36:05 -0600 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 (24 bit words) In-Reply-To: <20061013224230.51604.qmail@web60822.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061013224230.51604.qmail@web60822.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4533D115.2040806@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Watson wrote: > Trivia: 'BRS 131B' was the system call to crash the system. Now why would *you* happen to know such triva? :) > Just so you know. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 16 14:45:23 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 12:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DOS answering machine ??? MS-Phone In-Reply-To: <200610161426.k9GEQ4lL084552@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200610161426.k9GEQ4lL084552@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20061016124308.Y41627@shell.lmi.net> Microsoft came out with "The Microsoft Cordless Phone"! 900MHz cordless, with a voice modem in the PC. Some neat voice recognition stuff that didn['t work very well, and some features such as TTD that were touted, but never documented on how to invoke. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 16 14:53:43 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 12:53:43 -0700 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 (24 bit words) Message-ID: > Has anyone ever found any GENIE tapes or backups? There are two sets of backups from UCB and Shell Development that have been found. The problem is there are no surviving copies of what was on the swapping drum, so building a runnable system has proven to be very difficult. The contents of the tapes need to have the personal directories expunged before they can be released. Unfortunately, the SDS software library that CHM was just given doesn't contain the system software for the 940. There is one diagnostic tape and a user utility tape. >From going through the documentation that came with the library, it looks like there was very little for the 940 inside SDS as far back as 1971. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 16 15:04:28 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Model M for Murder... In-Reply-To: <20061016173508.025E958267@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20061016173508.025E958267@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Oct 2006, Bryan Pope wrote: > This video tests the myth that you can kill a man with a Model M keyboard > and still type on it afterward: http://m.etv.cx/ It seems obvious that such a keyboard can be used like that. What bugged me more is that someone decided to destroy the keyboards rather than salvage usable parts. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 16 15:09:01 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:09:01 -0400 Subject: Model M for Murder... In-Reply-To: References: <20061016173508.025E958267@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200610161609.01783.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 16 October 2006 16:04, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 16 Oct 2006, Bryan Pope wrote: > > This video tests the myth that you can kill a man with a Model M > > keyboard and still type on it afterward: http://m.etv.cx/ > > It seems obvious that such a keyboard can be used like that. What > bugged me more is that someone decided to destroy the keyboards > rather than salvage usable parts. So how many model M's do you want me to ship you? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Oct 16 15:18:41 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 15:18:41 -0500 Subject: Model M for Murder... In-Reply-To: <200610161609.01783.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <003601c6f160$499e1890$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> I have boxes upon boxes of these also. I think one can be spared for goofiness. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan > Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 3:09 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Model M for Murder... > > On Monday 16 October 2006 16:04, David Griffith wrote: > > On Mon, 16 Oct 2006, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > This video tests the myth that you can kill a man with a Model M > > > keyboard and still type on it afterward: http://m.etv.cx/ > > > > It seems obvious that such a keyboard can be used like that. What > > bugged me more is that someone decided to destroy the > keyboards rather > > than salvage usable parts. > > So how many model M's do you want me to ship you? > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Oct 16 15:26:44 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:26:44 -0700 Subject: Documents for memory board Message-ID: I hope someone recognizes this board and can help locate some documentation for it. It is apparently a PDP-11 Unibus MOS memory board with parity(?). The details are, it says Standard Memories, Applied Magnetics-Trendata, MM-135. A scan is available here: The reverse side is: Any documentation or other pointer would be very helpful. Thanks, John From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Oct 16 15:32:18 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sethm at loomcom.com) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:32:18 -0700 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 (24 bit words) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061016203218.GA28424@motherbrain.nat.squeep.com> On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 12:53:43PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Has anyone ever found any GENIE tapes or backups? > > There are two sets of backups from UCB and Shell Development that have been > found. The problem is there are no surviving copies of what was on the > swapping drum, so building a runnable system has proven to be very > difficult. [...] > Unfortunately, the SDS software library that CHM was just given doesn't > contain the system software for the 940. There is one diagnostic tape and a > user utility tape. > > >From going through the documentation that came with the library, it looks > like there was very little for the 940 inside SDS as far back as 1971. That's a damn shame. As you're more aware than (probably) anyone at this point, software archaeology is exceedingly difficult. It's become something of a passion of mine recently, coincidentally. I've been begging and buying UNIX workstation system software of relatively recent (~20 years) vintage and making backups to hang onto. I don't want the bits to all disappear. -Seth -- "It looks just like a Telefunken U47! Seth Morabito You'll love it." - Frank Zappa sethm at loomcom.com From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Oct 16 15:32:18 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sethm at loomcom.com) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:32:18 -0700 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 (24 bit words) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061016203218.GA28424@motherbrain.nat.squeep.com> On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 12:53:43PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Has anyone ever found any GENIE tapes or backups? > > There are two sets of backups from UCB and Shell Development that have been > found. The problem is there are no surviving copies of what was on the > swapping drum, so building a runnable system has proven to be very > difficult. [...] > Unfortunately, the SDS software library that CHM was just given doesn't > contain the system software for the 940. There is one diagnostic tape and a > user utility tape. > > >From going through the documentation that came with the library, it looks > like there was very little for the 940 inside SDS as far back as 1971. That's a damn shame. As you're more aware than (probably) anyone at this point, software archaeology is exceedingly difficult. It's become something of a passion of mine recently, coincidentally. I've been begging and buying UNIX workstation system software of relatively recent (~20 years) vintage and making backups to hang onto. I don't want the bits to all disappear. -Seth -- "It looks just like a Telefunken U47! Seth Morabito You'll love it." - Frank Zappa sethm at loomcom.com From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 16 15:52:03 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:52:03 -0700 Subject: Software Archaeology (was Oregon Software Pascal/2 (24 bit words)) Message-ID: > As you're more aware than (probably) anyone at > this point, software archaeology is exceedingly difficult. The thing to do is just keep asking anyone who was connected to the industry if they know folks like field serivce techs that were pack rats. The companies themselves either deliberately threw it out so that they wouldn't have to support it, or the physical assets were tossed out when companies were sold. The fact that the SDS 900 series library survived mostly in tact after being given away by Honeywell in 1982 gives me hope that people may have similar stashes somewhere. -- Somewhat related, a CHM press release just went out with this info in it: In support of its international collection and exhibit plans, the Museum also announced that it has acquired an extensive collection totaling seven shipping containers of computing objects salvaged from a crumbling warehouse in Dortmund, Germany this month. The rescued items, along with related documents and software, will augment the Museum?s existing 80,000-object collection that will be used to populate the 2009 exhibit. The historic collection from Germany was rescued from an open-air warehouse that encompassed a physical area of about 12,000 square feet. There are 112 unique manufacturers represented, including Telefunken, Siemens, Zuse, Olivetti and Groupe Bull. European-based manufacturers account for 50% of the acquired artifacts and another 20% in documentation and software. In addition to many rare computer systems, the rescued items will deepen the Museum?s holdings of electromechanical-era objects, as well as mainframe documentation and software. -- The container with documentation and software should be getting here in about a month. From the pictures, there are some very interesting things coming. This was partly from the computer museum which closed in Achen. From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Oct 16 15:44:20 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:44:20 -0400 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: References: <001301c6efff$986bac10$8e00a8c0@badddog> <453324BA.1020803@srv.net> Message-ID: <200610161644.20489.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 16 October 2006 12:41 pm, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 16 Oct 2006, Kevin Handy wrote: > > To test weither you need a null-modem or not, when you > > have a 25 pin conector, get one of those RS-232 line > > monitors (available at RadioShack for < $10.00) which > > display several of the signals using leds. If both pin 2 and > > 3 light up, you are probably Ok, If only one lights up, > > you probably need a null modem. If you then put in a > > null modem, and still only have one light, you have a > > bad (cable, interface, etc). > > I was at a Radio Shack a couple months ago and observed these line > monitors being removed from inventory. They said they'd be liquidated by > someone else. Jameco may be a more reliable source for this gizmo now. I forget where I got mine, some mail-order outfit back when and I was ordering some other stuff and got that while I was at it. A very handy gadget to be sure. I also paid half the price that RS was asking for theirs, which if I'm remembering right was $14.95 or so. What I do with 'em is plug one side in alone, and note what lights up and what doesn't, then do the other side alone. That'll give me a pretty good indication of whether or not I need to cross any lines. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, dealiest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of spac, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Oct 16 15:47:51 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:47:51 -0400 Subject: Lightning Damage (was: Re: DOS answering machine ??? ) In-Reply-To: References: <200610161700.k9GH06Bb057854@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200610161647.52211.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 16 October 2006 01:45 pm, Mark Tapley wrote: > At 12:00 -0500 10/16/06, Roy Tellason wrote: > >That was my way to do dialup for a while here until it got weird after a > >storm. > > This seems to be a recurring theme in posts here. At least here in > the central US, thunderstorms are pretty predictable. I have made it > SOP for over a decade now to just disconnect classic gear from the > wall when one is known to be approaching. As I recall we weren't home at the time and it came up rather suddenly... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, dealiest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of spac, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Oct 16 16:32:12 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 17:32:12 -0400 Subject: Finding bad RAM chip on PDP11 M7551? In-Reply-To: <4532AE72.80006@msu.edu> References: <4532AE72.80006@msu.edu> Message-ID: <4533FA5C.8020109@compsys.to> >Josh Dersch wrote: > I have a MicroPDP 11/73 I'm trying to get running again; it has a > single M7551-AP memory board (1MB) which appears to have a stuck bit; > the startup memory test fails with: > > Expected Data = 125252 > Bad Data = 125253 > Address = 01400010 > > Any ideas how to determine which RAM chip needs to be replaced based > on the failing address? > > Thanks, > Josh Jerome Fine replies: I don't have an installation guide, but I suspect that it might be possible to reduce the available memory until you are able to replace the stuck bit. Based on the bad memory address, I think that the first 256 KBytes of memory are OK. If you set the end address jumpers at 256 KBytes, then the start-up diagnostic should ignore the rest of the memory. If you are able to get by on 256 KBytes of memory for a while, that might solve the problem for the moment. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From hachti at hachti.de Mon Oct 16 17:03:56 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 00:03:56 +0200 Subject: Software Archaeology (was Oregon Software Pascal/2 (24 bit words)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <453401CC.1040103@hachti.de> @Al: Sorry for posing this on the list. But I tried to contact you be email several times with no success. Perhaps I get into a SPAM filter? Was about your H316. Regards, Philipp :-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 16 17:04:05 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 18:04:05 -0400 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: References: <001301c6efff$986bac10$8e00a8c0@badddog> <453324BA.1020803@srv.net> Message-ID: On Oct 16, 2006, at 12:41 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> To test weither you need a null-modem or not, when you >> have a 25 pin conector, get one of those RS-232 line >> monitors (available at RadioShack for < $10.00) which >> display several of the signals using leds. If both pin 2 and >> 3 light up, you are probably Ok, If only one lights up, >> you probably need a null modem. If you then put in a >> null modem, and still only have one light, you have a >> bad (cable, interface, etc). > > I was at a Radio Shack a couple months ago and observed these line > monitors being removed from inventory. They said they'd be > liquidated by > someone else. Jameco may be a more reliable source for this gizmo > now. That sucks. They are extremely handy little devices. I use mine all the time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Oct 16 17:07:12 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 15:07:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <200610161644.20489.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at "Oct 16, 6 04:44:20 pm" Message-ID: <200610162207.k9GM7CnO009172@floodgap.com> > > > To test weither you need a null-modem or not, when you > > > have a 25 pin conector, get one of those RS-232 line > > > monitors (available at RadioShack for < $10.00) which > > > display several of the signals using leds. If both pin 2 and > > > 3 light up, you are probably Ok, If only one lights up, > > > you probably need a null modem. If you then put in a > > > null modem, and still only have one light, you have a > > > bad (cable, interface, etc). > > > > I was at a Radio Shack a couple months ago and observed these line > > monitors being removed from inventory. They said they'd be liquidated by > > someone else. Jameco may be a more reliable source for this gizmo now. > > I forget where I got mine, some mail-order outfit back when and I was > ordering some other stuff and got that while I was at it. A very handy > gadget to be sure. I also paid half the price that RS was asking for theirs, > which if I'm remembering right was $14.95 or so. Fry's has them in bucketloads. I think mine was $10. Very handy. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Computers are like air conditioners. They stop working if you open windows. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 16 17:30:17 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 15:30:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <200610162207.k9GM7CnO009172@floodgap.com> References: <200610162207.k9GM7CnO009172@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20061016152750.R50658@shell.lmi.net> > > gadget to be sure. I also paid half the price that RS was asking for theirs, > > which if I'm remembering right was $14.95 or so. > Fry's has them in bucketloads. I think mine was $10. Very handy. Last time that I bought any of those from Radio Shack or Fry's, I had to pop it open and resolder most of the connections. When they're selling stuff with worse soldering than MINE, it's getting pretty bad. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ohh at drizzle.com Mon Oct 16 17:31:10 2006 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 15:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PSU Capacitors Message-ID: I've got a couple of old DEC machines which look like they could use new filter capacitors in the power supplies: I tried reforming the originals, and in some cases it worked, but there are also a few which look like they'll never see full capacity again. These are electrolytics, with 160,000mf/20v/24v surge and 57,000mf/50v/65v surge being the original values. Soooo here's my two questions: -Where would you recommend buying new ones? Anyone have a capacitor vendor they're particularly fond of (or particularly loathe)? -Does it make better sense to replace these with electrolytics, and have the same characteristics (and the same problems over time) as the originals, or is there some more modern cap-technology which would give the original's performance but with a better lifespan? I'm not up on my capacitor technology. :) Any help or suggestions would be welcome. Thanks! -O.- From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 16 17:48:35 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 15:48:35 -0700 Subject: Software Archaeology (was Oregon Software Pascal/2 (24 bit words)) Message-ID: > Was about your H316. There is nothing new to report. It is still in Canada. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 16 16:33:02 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 22:33:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 (24 bit words) In-Reply-To: <20061013224230.51604.qmail@web60822.mail.yahoo.com> from "Tom Watson" at Oct 13, 6 03:42:30 pm Message-ID: > Yes, 24 bit machines did exist. In fact before BSD, there was project Genie I have a machine here that's 24 bit -- sort-of. The CPU registers are 24 bits wide, as is the ALU, and the full width of the ALU is used to calculate memory addresses (24 bit address bus). But the main memory data bus is 16 bits wide, normally loaded into the bottom 16 bits of the ALU path, but it's possible to take the bottom 8 bits of memory into the top 8 bits of the ALU path (thus letting you load all the bits of a 24 bit register from memory in 2 'goes'). I am sure you know what that machine is... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 16 18:03:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 00:03:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 16, 6 06:04:05 pm Message-ID: > > I was at a Radio Shack a couple months ago and observed these line > > monitors being removed from inventory. They said they'd be > > liquidated by > > someone else. Jameco may be a more reliable source for this gizmo > > now. > > That sucks. They are extremely handy little devices. I use mine > all the time. \begin{aol} Me too \end{aol} The one I have has 7 bicolour LEDs, monitoring TxD, RxD, RTS, CTS, DSR, DTR and CD. I find it very handy fo checking an unknown serial port (is it DTE or DCE), seeing if data is flowing, etc. I have other RS232 test equipment too, up to a Tekky datacoms tester, but I still normally grab this little 'christmas tree' [1] tester first. There's no way I can set it up wrongly for a state. Of course sometimes I do need the more adcanced testers, but not very often [1] That's what they tend to be called over here, because of the red and green flashing lights ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 16 18:04:59 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 00:04:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <20061016152750.R50658@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 16, 6 03:30:17 pm Message-ID: > Last time that I bought any of those from Radio Shack or Fry's, > I had to pop it open and resolder most of the connections. Same with mine. And it's old enough that we can't blame trying to use lead-free sodler at too low a temperature this time. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 16 18:15:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:15:35 -0700 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200610161615350038.7D5B4985@10.0.0.252> On Oct 16, 2006, at 12:41 PM, David Griffith wrote: > I was at a Radio Shack a couple months ago and observed these line > monitors being removed from inventory. They said they'd be > liquidated by someone else. Jameco may be a more reliable source for this gizmo > now. I bought mine sometime back in the early 80's/late 70's along with a bunch of the DB-25 "jumper boxes". A straight-through DB-25 cable, a couple of gender-changers, a couple of DA-9-to-DB-25 converters, a null modem jumper box and a LED monitor box pretty much will get you through any RS232C hookup problem. I guess this all means that RS232C has fallen into the category of "obsolescent technology". Well, it had a good long run--and it's a heckuva lot easier to deal with than USB... Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 16 18:33:26 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 17:33:26 -0600 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <20061016152750.R50658@shell.lmi.net> References: <200610162207.k9GM7CnO009172@floodgap.com> <20061016152750.R50658@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <453416C6.4010406@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > Last time that I bought any of those from Radio Shack or Fry's, > I had to pop it open and resolder most of the connections. > > When they're selling stuff with worse soldering than MINE, > it's getting pretty bad. Hey I got a board that needs soldering... I just found out I need Reading glasses, I better get all my stuff I wanted to build *now* while a got few decades left to enjoy them. :) > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 16 18:46:52 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 17:46:52 -0600 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 (24 bit words) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <453419EC.8070908@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > I have a machine here that's 24 bit -- sort-of. The CPU registers are 24 > bits wide, as is the ALU, and the full width of the ALU is used to > calculate memory addresses (24 bit address bus). But the main memory data > bus is 16 bits wide, normally loaded into the bottom 16 bits of the ALU > path, but it's possible to take the bottom 8 bits of memory into the top > 8 bits of the ALU path (thus letting you load all the bits of a 24 bit > register from memory in 2 'goes'). > I am sure you know what that machine is... Well I don't know off hand. It sounds like a Seymour Cray design for I/O computer but then you need the 'super computer' to go with it. > -tony From tosteve at gmail.com Mon Oct 16 18:56:59 2006 From: tosteve at gmail.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:56:59 -0700 Subject: MAYA 1.0 for Unix available (1998?) Message-ID: <2e4ce2290610161656q306efc41t88b708530f5ccf0e@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I have this CD pack - MAYA 1.0 (1998?) that I dont' need/want. This is from Alias/wavefront - a Silicon Graphics company. It's yours for like $5 or so. Includes these three CDs in a case: --MAYA 1.0 (MAYA F/X, MAYA Artisan, MAYA Developers kit) --Composer 4.5 --Discover MAYA It may not run on your system! Some info here: http://www.alias.com/eng/support/maya/qualified_hardware/QUAL/maya_1_0.html From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 16 19:55:22 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 19:55:22 -0500 Subject: Documents for memory board References: Message-ID: <016a01c6f186$f3ade790$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> John wrote.... > The details are, it says Standard Memories, Applied Magnetics-Trendata, > MM-135. A scan is available here: Good luck, if you find anything let me know. I've been asking about a standard memories MM-144 board here for years , no luck yet. Maybe they have similar jumpers. Jay From ray at arachelian.com Mon Oct 16 21:32:24 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 22:32:24 -0400 Subject: Slightly OT: Sony Typecorder In-Reply-To: <000a01c6f12e$cb0f6050$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000a01c6f12e$cb0f6050$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <453440B8.4000707@arachelian.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > But as I understand it, there's no "computing" there except for the word > processor. Is that correct? > Not sure, I don't have a manual for it, and it's non-functional. But it does appear that it's a word processor like device only. From sieler at allegro.com Mon Oct 16 18:27:03 2006 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 16:27:03 -0700 Subject: Digital Systems Corporation In-Reply-To: <452889EE.2040702@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4533B2D7.29544.14E22A87@localhost> Re: > One is a rom from a pretty old mini or mainframe, which is badged > Digital Systems Digital Scientific Corporation, which was in the outskirts of San Diego. The ROM board looks like one in the Digital Scientific Meta-IV computer ... I remember applying ROM patches by peeling off small squares and sticking on new ones, circa 1971. The Meta-IV was allegedly an IBM 1130 clone. I say "allegedly", because, as I understand it, it had an extra instruction or two that technically made it an IBM 1800 clone ... but that was hearsay. I used the Meta-IV, with the 1130 OS and 1130 APL and FORTRAN for several years at the University of California, San Diego. (IIRC, it was on the fifth floor of building 2A) On it, using FORTRAN, I wrote a SpaceWar (based on the description in the Analog science fiction magazine article circa 1969/1970). Another student added explosion sounds (yeah, so what?!) by talking to a Wavetek function generator sitting on top of the computer. I used an Evans & Sutherland display device for the display, and the 16 toggle switches for input. I wouldn't mind getting a ROM board like that someday :) Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From cc at corti-net.de Tue Oct 17 04:23:43 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:23:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Software Archaeology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Oct 2006, Al Kossow wrote: > Somewhat related, a CHM press release just went out with this info in it: > > In support of its international collection and exhibit plans, the Museum > also announced that it has acquired an extensive collection totaling seven > shipping containers of computing objects salvaged from a crumbling warehouse > in Dortmund, Germany this month. The rescued items, along with related > documents and software, will augment the Museum??s existing 80,000-object > collection that will be used to populate the 2009 exhibit. > > The historic collection from Germany was rescued from an open-air warehouse > that encompassed a physical area of about 12,000 square feet. There are 112 > unique manufacturers represented, including Telefunken, Siemens, Zuse, > Olivetti and Groupe Bull. European-based manufacturers account for 50% of > the acquired artifacts and another 20% in documentation and software. In > addition to many rare computer systems, the rescued items will deepen the > Museum??s holdings of electromechanical-era objects, as well as mainframe > documentation and software. Don't get me wrong, but to be honest: It's a shame that all this went to the US without asking any other real computer museum in Germany first (at least noone did ask the ones I know, and the HNF is not a real computer museum...). This is a great loss because for most of us it will be impossible to see that material again, and I don't think the machines will be running again (220V/380V 50Hz etc.) And I wonder about what money went where etc... Will I be able to get copies of all the software and/or documentation? It would be great to give German collectors at least that opportunity. Christian From akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to Tue Oct 17 05:50:44 2006 From: akb+lists.cctalk at mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 06:50:44 -0400 Subject: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale Message-ID: <0q3b9np663.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Chris Zach needs the space, so he's selling off his KS-10 (2020) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&item=320038687685 This machine was the last host to be named AI.MIT.EDU that ran ITS, and probably the last running DEC 10 or 20 at MIT (though that might have been MC). It comes with an ITS disk pack (and a drive). Might also have TOPS-20. Bidding is at $2k so far. --akb ps: AI, MC, and the hulk of a third 2020 which I think was BLT (Brave Little Toaster) were part of extensive hacker rescue efforts in the early 90s. They were schlepped out of MIT, sat at digex.net for a while until the VC-installed managers almost junked them, then CZ rescued them and has cared for them since. (I'm not sure what he's done with MC, BLT was mostly just the chassis and prolly got scrapped). In the auction photos, those small red tags next to the bar codes are the MIT "deactivated property" tags. From kelly at catcorner.org Tue Oct 17 08:05:55 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 09:05:55 -0400 Subject: 8" disk archive Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B13FD@MEOW.catcorner.org> I'm actually starting the archiving of the more than 1,500 8" disks that I have. Here are my intended methods. If anyone has any comments, please speak up. The ultimate goal is an online searchable database of these disks. 1) number each diskette sequentially with date 2) taking a digital picture of the label 3) Making a catweasel image of the contents 4) Makine an ImageDisk image of the contents 5) Storing the following information in a database Diskette number Any text from the label System if known OS used if known Date of origin if known Description of contents if commercial software, the publisher/author Photo of the label Both disk images Kelly From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 17 09:32:43 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:32:43 +0000 Subject: 8" disk archive In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B13FD@MEOW.catcorner.org> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B13FD@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <4534E98B.3060001@yahoo.co.uk> Kelly Leavitt wrote: > Here are my intended methods. If anyone has any comments, please speak up. That sounds good - it's about as comprehensive as you'll likely to get without recording the actual flux transitions on the disk. You could potentially store the disk catalogue (directory listing) in the database too, outside of the disk images. That might be handy for searching / comparing [1], although it's not vital - and it would require you to have tools to read the directory information from the imagedisk / catweasel archive formats at the point of inserting the images into the database. [1] less of an issue for commercial software, but it's useful if you have a lot of 'working' disks containing homebrew software and the like. Some other things you might want to capture: When you got each disk Who you got it from Some sort of 'batch' number The latter can tie together disks that came in the same pile / haul / box and can be useful if you find something interesting on one disk and want to investigate others from the same batch to see what they contain. Actually, I'd have a think about what sort of 'media type' fields would be useful, such that you can have an archive which copes with other disk sizes rather than just 8" - that way other people can add media once the archive goes online. cheers Jules From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Oct 17 08:49:18 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 08:49:18 -0500 Subject: PSU Capacitors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061017084604.0d543d48@localhost> Look for a swap (amateur radio) otherwise know as a hamfest. They have them all over the place at various times of the year. I usually see big caps that look relatively new for a decent price. This might help you locate a swap in your area: http://www.arrl.org/hamfests.html?dosel=1&subtype=section&selsect=MI 73 de N9QQB At 03:31 PM 10/16/2006 -0700, you wrote: >I've got a couple of old DEC machines which look like they could use new >filter capacitors in the power supplies: I tried reforming the originals, >and in some cases it worked, but there are also a few which look like >they'll never see full capacity again. > >These are electrolytics, with 160,000mf/20v/24v surge and 57,000mf/50v/65v >surge being the original values. > >Soooo here's my two questions: > >-Where would you recommend buying new ones? Anyone have a capacitor vendor >they're particularly fond of (or particularly loathe)? > >-Does it make better sense to replace these with electrolytics, and have >the same characteristics (and the same problems over time) as the >originals, or is there some more modern cap-technology which would give >the original's performance but with a better lifespan? > >I'm not up on my capacitor technology. :) Any help or suggestions >would be welcome. Thanks! > > -O.- [Computing] C++ is to C as Lung Cancer is to Lung --.sig of Thomas Funke (thomas at gamelan.shnet.org) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 17 10:53:05 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 08:53:05 -0700 Subject: German collection (was Software Archaeology) Message-ID: > It's a shame that all this went to the US Not all of this has gone to the US. If there is a single coordinated effort there to save the remaining material, that would be great. I would suggest coordinating this with Doron. There are a number of GA and DEC minis, a System3 and System7 for example that need to be saved. > Will I be able to get copies of all the software and/or documentation? Do you have any idea of how much 1 1/2 shipping containers worth of docs and software is? I will try to make as much material as I can available, as I have been with other things in the CHM collection, but this may literally take years to do. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 17 11:04:19 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 12:04:19 -0400 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <200610161615350038.7D5B4985@10.0.0.252> References: <200610161615350038.7D5B4985@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <5ACDC127-A2AF-4A12-BA51-705D5ECB9AEA@neurotica.com> On Oct 16, 2006, at 7:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I guess this all means that RS232C has fallen into the category of > "obsolescent technology". Ha! Not anytime soon, for better or worse. The same thing was said about things like the Z80, which is being made in larger quantities than ever before. -Dave From rdbrown at pacific.net.au Tue Oct 17 07:19:10 2006 From: rdbrown at pacific.net.au (Rodney Brown) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:19:10 +1000 Subject: OT, tool: HP-IB == IEEE 488 bus sniffer ISA card on ebay Message-ID: <1161087550.5252.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220038281851&fromMakeTrack=true National Instruments AT-GPIB/TNT+ IEEE 488.2 182785E-01 If this is the same as the card below, the analyser software which can sniff the bus, runs under Windows 95, 98 & ME, capturing HP-IB bus traffic into the PC memory. http://cgi.ebay.com/National-Instruments-AT-GPIB-TNT-GPIB-Analyzer_W0QQitemZ230039829212QQihZ013QQcategoryZ10668QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem The following is the beginning of an HP150 boot from a 9133 drive, captured with a TNT+ using the NI Analyser and formatted to text. Capture Stimulus : Data, Command, Control, Handshake, Parallel Poll Handshake Rate : None ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ M Timestamp Data Control mi s ms us ns A H 87654321 E A S R I NR ND D ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- -- -- 80 10000000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 47 950 80 10000000 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 ATN^ REN^ IFC^ 0 0 0 0 100 bf 10111111 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 NDAC^ 0 0 71 571 200 bf 10111111 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 IFCv 0 0 719 102 550 bf 10111111 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 ATNv 0 0 0 0 150 0 00000000 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 NDACv 0 0 0 2 950 0 00000000 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 RENv 0 0 0 48 350 0 00000000 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 ATN^ REN^ IFC^ 0 0 0 0 100 bf 10111111 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 NDAC^ 0 0 71 571 50 bf 10111111 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 IFCv 0 0 5 565 800 94 10010100 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 ??? DAV^ 0 0 0 0 300 94 10010100 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 1 NRFD^ 0 0 0 0 350 94 10010100 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 NDACv 0 0 0 0 100 94 10010100 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 DAVv 0 0 0 0 100 94 10010100 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 NDAC^ 0 0 0 0 50 94 10010100 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 NRFDv 0 0 0 136 900 94 10010100 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 PP-B EOI^ 0 0 0 0 100 0 00000000 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 PP-R NDACv 0 0 0 1 900 0 00000000 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 PP-R NDAC^ 0 0 0 6 900 0 00000000 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 PP-R NDACv 0 0 49 51 400 80 10000000 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 PP-R 0 0 0 16 250 80 10000000 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 PP-E EOIv 0 0 0 0 100 80 10000000 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 NDAC^ 0 0 0 108 450 df 11011111 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 ??? DAV^ 0 0 0 0 300 df 11011111 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 1 NRFD^ 0 0 0 0 350 df 11011111 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 NDACv 0 0 0 0 100 df 11011111 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 DAVv 0 0 0 0 100 df 11011111 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 NDAC^ 0 0 0 0 50 df 11011111 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 NRFDv From rdbrown at pacific.net.au Tue Oct 17 08:38:40 2006 From: rdbrown at pacific.net.au (Rodney Brown) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:38:40 +1000 Subject: OT, tool: NI ISA Analyser card on ebay - looks like no software Message-ID: <1161092320.5252.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> The card doesn't appear to ship with the NI analyser software, which NI is still selling at USD99. http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/10624 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 17 11:28:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 09:28:29 -0700 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <5ACDC127-A2AF-4A12-BA51-705D5ECB9AEA@neurotica.com> References: <200610161615350038.7D5B4985@10.0.0.252> <5ACDC127-A2AF-4A12-BA51-705D5ECB9AEA@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200610170928290659.810CEC8A@10.0.0.252> On 10/17/2006 at 12:04 PM Dave McGuire wrote: > Ha! Not anytime soon, for better or worse. The same thing was >said about things like the Z80, which is being made in larger >quantities than ever before. Observe that I said that RS-232C was "obsolescent" and not "obsolete"--I'm merely implying that it's on a slow decline. The primary uses--connecting an external modem or terminal to a PC aren't nearly as important today as they once were. USB and other interfaces have largely usurped the position that the old "serial port" interface enjoyed. There will be a time when the standard PeeCee lacks a RS232C port--unless added by the user with a USB adapter--just like the way the situation with the floppy drive is evolving. I've heard floppy drives on laptops described in magazine reviews as "quaint" in much the same way that an acetylene headlamp on a modern car might be. Cheers, Chuck From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Oct 17 11:52:50 2006 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 12:52:50 -0400 Subject: 8" disk archive In-Reply-To: <200610171625.k9HGNvmq076998@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20061017124825.013de9e8@mail.degnanco.net> Comment: - This is what preserving the history of computers is all about. Plug forward! Bill D >------------------------------ > >Message: 29 >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 09:05:55 -0400 >From: "Kelly Leavitt" >Subject: 8" disk archive >To: >Message-ID: > <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B13FD at MEOW.catcorner.org> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > >I'm actually starting the archiving of the more than 1,500 8" disks that >I have. Here are my intended methods. If anyone has any comments, please >speak up. >The ultimate goal is an online searchable database of these disks. > >1) number each diskette sequentially with date >2) taking a digital picture of the label >3) Making a catweasel image of the contents >4) Makine an ImageDisk image of the contents >5) Storing the following information in a database >Diskette number >Any text from the label >System if known >OS used if known >Date of origin if known >Description of contents >if commercial software, the publisher/author >Photo of the label >Both disk images > >Kelly > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 17 12:05:39 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 06:05:39 +1300 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <20061016152750.R50658@shell.lmi.net> References: <200610162207.k9GM7CnO009172@floodgap.com> <20061016152750.R50658@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 10/17/06, Fred Cisin wrote: > Last time that I bought any of those from Radio Shack or Fry's, > I had to pop it open and resolder most of the connections. I did for mine, too, but that was 15 years ago. If you don't buy the expensive ones from a company like Black Box, expect to have to fix cheap workmanship. OTOH, my $10 unit was in tiptop shape after 5 minutes work, so overall, it still was a good price. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 17 12:13:32 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 06:13:32 +1300 Subject: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale In-Reply-To: <0q3b9np663.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q3b9np663.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: On 10/17/06, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > > Chris Zach needs the space, > so he's selling off his KS-10 (2020) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&item=320038687685 Boy would I like to get that... since I won't be home for months, I'm going to have to pass, but it sure looks nice. -ethan (who goes back to running TOPS-20 on klh10) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 17 12:19:52 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:19:52 -0400 Subject: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale In-Reply-To: <0q3b9np663.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q3b9np663.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <8806CD6E-2930-4967-8DAC-5CEF343D5C9C@neurotica.com> On Oct 17, 2006, at 6:50 AM, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > ps: AI, MC, and the hulk of a third 2020 which I think was BLT (Brave > Little Toaster) were part of extensive hacker rescue efforts in the > early 90s. They were schlepped out of MIT, sat at digex.net for a > while until the VC-installed managers almost junked them, then CZ > rescued them and has cared for them since. (I'm not sure what he's > done with MC, BLT was mostly just the chassis and prolly got > scrapped). In the auction photos, those small red tags next to the bar > codes are the MIT "deactivated property" tags. Those machines were moved to Doug Humphrey's private warehouse in Laurel, MD, and were never in danger of being scrapped. CZ got AI and perhaps one other; I am not sure. As of yesterday, one remains in Doug's warehouse, which I *think* was MC...I will verify that when I go up there in a few weeks. From that haul also came ML.AI (s/n 4653), which I have here. There's an unidentified KS10 CPU card cage (sans rack) and some related parts in the Maryland warehouse...nobody seems to know anything about them...I'll bet that was BLT. I have no disks or tapes for 4653...I'm looking for an RM03 and a TU45 or TU77; if anyone can help with either of those please let me know. I won't be able to run it 24/7, but I am certainly willing to run it periodically. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 17 12:27:27 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:27:27 -0400 Subject: RS-232 Obsolescence (was PDT-11/150 down) In-Reply-To: <200610171708.k9HH6ZKq077689@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000901c6f211$84906820$6600a8c0@barry> -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of cctech-request at classiccmp.org Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 1:08 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 38, Issue 24 Send cctech mailing list submissions to cctech at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctech or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctech-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctech-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctech digest..." Today's Topics: 1. German collection (was Software Archaeology) (Al Kossow) 2. Re: PDT-11/150 down (Dave McGuire) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 08:53:05 -0700 From: Al Kossow Subject: German collection (was Software Archaeology) To: "classiccmp at classiccmp.org" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > It's a shame that all this went to the US Re: "I guess this all means that RS232C has fallen into the category of "obsolescent technology"." Some brand new JVC DLP 1080P TV sets have a control interface (this is only present in some of the newest, highest end models) that allows the TV to be controlled by {presumably} a media center PC. It's RS-232. These TV sets were only introduced this spring. Why it's not USB is beyond me, but it's not. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 17 12:39:33 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:39:33 -0400 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <200610170928290659.810CEC8A@10.0.0.252> References: <200610161615350038.7D5B4985@10.0.0.252> <5ACDC127-A2AF-4A12-BA51-705D5ECB9AEA@neurotica.com> <200610170928290659.810CEC8A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <45351555.6000104@neurotica.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Ha! Not anytime soon, for better or worse. The same thing was >> said about things like the Z80, which is being made in larger >> quantities than ever before. > > Observe that I said that RS-232C was "obsolescent" and not "obsolete"--I'm > merely implying that it's on a slow decline. The primary uses--connecting > an external modem or terminal to a PC aren't nearly as important today as > they once were. USB and other interfaces have largely usurped the position > that the old "serial port" interface enjoyed. Indeed, I stand corrected, and I agree with your assessment. The applications of RS232 certainly have changed over the years. > There will be a time when > the standard PeeCee lacks a RS232C port--unless added by the user with a > USB adapter--just like the way the situation with the floppy drive is > evolving. Indeed, I think that time has already come, has it not? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Oct 17 12:48:43 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:48:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale In-Reply-To: <0q3b9np663.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q3b9np663.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <2884.84.201.153.130.1161107323.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Tue, October 17, 2006 11:50 am, Andrew K. Bressen said: > > Chris Zach needs the space, > so he's selling off his KS-10 (2020) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&item=320038687685 > > This machine was the last host to be named AI.MIT.EDU that ran ITS, > and probably the last running DEC 10 or 20 at MIT (though that might > have been MC). Nice! That's the sort of machine I'd love to have but will never get I don't think..... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From brian at quarterbyte.com Tue Oct 17 12:50:14 2006 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 10:50:14 -0700 Subject: Digital Systems Corporation Message-ID: <4534B566.1777.F7A3ADF@brian.quarterbyte.com> Hi Jim, What a coincidence -- we just got a lengthy email from Wayne Farmer in the ibm1130.org guestbook, who also talked about working with the that same Meta IV (production serial #1 in fact), at UC San Diego, and he described working with these very microcode ROMs. Hey, are you planning on coming to the Vintage Computer Festival in Mountain View, CA in November? If you are it would be great if you could bring this microcode board with you to show off at the IBM 1130 party which will be held Saturday evening during the VCF. Brian From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Oct 17 13:05:40 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:05:40 -0400 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <45351555.6000104@neurotica.com> References: <200610170928290659.810CEC8A@10.0.0.252> <45351555.6000104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200610171405.40406.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 17 October 2006 13:39, Dave McGuire wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Ha! Not anytime soon, for better or worse. The same thing was > >> said about things like the Z80, which is being made in larger > >> quantities than ever before. > > > > Observe that I said that RS-232C was "obsolescent" and not > > "obsolete"--I'm merely implying that it's on a slow decline. The > > primary uses--connecting an external modem or terminal to a PC > > aren't nearly as important today as they once were. USB and other > > interfaces have largely usurped the position that the old "serial > > port" interface enjoyed. > > Indeed, I stand corrected, and I agree with your assessment. The > applications of RS232 certainly have changed over the years. I dunno. Almost all the machines we have at work, which I admin, have RS-232 console ports.... we even set up our crappy Dell 1U servers with a serial console connection. That's one use for a serial port (and the most common that I can think of now-a-days) that's been around for well over 30 years... And, by the way, it's so much easier to use a text-based serial console over a remote connection from home to fix a problem with a machine, than to either do KVM over IP or VNC-based system management. A lot (if not most) of the machines that we care about enough to have consoles, even PC's, allow access to the firmware/BIOS from the serial console, as well as our bootloader and OS supporting a serial console. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 17 14:11:57 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:11:57 +0000 Subject: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale In-Reply-To: <2884.84.201.153.130.1161107323.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <0q3b9np663.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <2884.84.201.153.130.1161107323.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <45352AFD.1040209@yahoo.co.uk> Witchy wrote: > On Tue, October 17, 2006 11:50 am, Andrew K. Bressen said: >> Chris Zach needs the space, >> so he's selling off his KS-10 (2020) >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&item=320038687685 >> >> This machine was the last host to be named AI.MIT.EDU that ran ITS, >> and probably the last running DEC 10 or 20 at MIT (though that might >> have been MC). > > Nice! That's the sort of machine I'd love to have but will never get I > don't think..... According to an old email that Mike Ross sent me, the last KL series machine in the UK was at BA; that went around 1993. The last KS series was at a college in Aberdeen and went circa 1995. In other words, none left on the UK side of the pond :-( I don't think there are even any in private hands... cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 17 13:12:54 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:12:54 -0500 Subject: PDT-11/150 down References: <200610170928290659.810CEC8A@10.0.0.252><45351555.6000104@neurotica.com> <200610171405.40406.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <00f801c6f217$e5bdd230$6700a8c0@BILLING> Pat wrote.... > Almost all the machines we have at work, which I admin, have > RS-232 console ports.... That's true, most of your name brand data-center class Intel based (and others) have full bios support for serial console. However, those are not the typical machines a consumer buys. Just try finding a laptop these days that has a serial port. You won't find much (if any). I daresay more than half the consumer grade PC's for the home do not have serial ports on them either nowdays. RS232 as far as a general purpose consumer interface is dead. Jay From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Oct 17 13:26:11 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:26:11 +0100 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <00f801c6f217$e5bdd230$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <000901c6f219$b9ef4dd0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> >RS232 as far as a general purpose consumer interface is dead. Interestingly when I needed to configure a *10Gbps* interface today on An HP 3500yl-48G switch, I needed to connect via RS232 (and VT100 emulation Mode!!) to assign an IP address to the switch. I'll grant that consumers are not buying 10G-capable switches today, but it's interesting that such a new switch still expects you to initially say "hello" with an RS232 interface. (OK, the default is DHCP, but the point still stands). My RS232 breakout boxes are still a way from being retired. Antonio From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 17 13:27:17 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:27:17 -0400 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <45351555.6000104@neurotica.com> References: <200610161615350038.7D5B4985@10.0.0.252> <5ACDC127-A2AF-4A12-BA51-705D5ECB9AEA@neurotica.com> <200610170928290659.810CEC8A@10.0.0.252> <45351555.6000104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45352085.40505@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> There will be a time when >> the standard PeeCee lacks a RS232C port--unless added by the user with a >> USB adapter--just like the way the situation with the floppy drive is >> evolving. > > Indeed, I think that time has already come, has it not? Not that I know of. The dual-core Opteron nForce 550 system I just built has one. (But only one.) Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 17 13:31:34 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:31:34 -0400 Subject: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale In-Reply-To: <45352AFD.1040209@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0q3b9np663.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <2884.84.201.153.130.1161107323.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <45352AFD.1040209@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45352186.1010302@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Witchy wrote: >> On Tue, October 17, 2006 11:50 am, Andrew K. Bressen said: >>> Chris Zach needs the space, >>> so he's selling off his KS-10 (2020) >>> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&item=320038687685 >>> >>> This machine was the last host to be named AI.MIT.EDU that ran ITS, >>> and probably the last running DEC 10 or 20 at MIT (though that might >>> have been MC). >> >> Nice! That's the sort of machine I'd love to have but will never get I >> don't think..... > > > > According to an old email that Mike Ross sent me, the last KL series > machine in the UK was at BA; that went around 1993. The last KS series > was at a college in Aberdeen and went circa 1995. > > In other words, none left on the UK side of the pond :-( I don't think > there are even any in private hands... Nope. If memory serves, Update, the computer club at Uppsala University in Sweden, has at least two KL-10's and at least one KS-10. Peace... Sridhar From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 17 13:32:46 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:32:46 -0500 Subject: PDT-11/150 down References: <000901c6f219$b9ef4dd0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <012e01c6f21a$aef52250$6700a8c0@BILLING> I had written.... > >RS232 as far as a general purpose consumer interface is dead. To which antonio replied... > Interestingly when I needed to configure a *10Gbps* interface today on > An HP 3500yl-48G switch, I needed to connect via RS232 (and VT100 Uh... I DID say general purpose CONSUMER grade. An HP 3500yl switch isn't what I'd call consumer grade. > My RS232 breakout boxes are still a way from being retired. Oh, mine either. One of my specialties was RS232 in my "previous" career. I still have my breakout boxes, bert testers, serial protocol analyzers, etc. They won't be going anywhere soon. But what I was saying is that from the mom & pop at home buying a home computer or a home wireless router... rs232 IS dead. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 17 13:33:46 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:33:46 -0500 Subject: PDT-11/150 down References: <200610161615350038.7D5B4985@10.0.0.252> <5ACDC127-A2AF-4A12-BA51-705D5ECB9AEA@neurotica.com> <200610170928290659.810CEC8A@10.0.0.252><45351555.6000104@neurotica.com> <45352085.40505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <012f01c6f21a$cc0d6820$6700a8c0@BILLING> Sridhar wrote.... > Not that I know of. The dual-core Opteron nForce 550 system I just built > has one. (But only one.) I wouldn't qualify a dual core opteron as typical stuff that shows up a a flea market, or at best buy. Jay From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 17 13:35:39 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:35:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale In-Reply-To: <45352186.1010302@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Oct 17, 2006 02:31:34 PM Message-ID: <200610171835.k9HIZdaJ020524@onyx.spiritone.com> > Nope. If memory serves, Update, the computer club at Uppsala University > in Sweden, has at least two KL-10's and at least one KS-10. > > Peace... Sridhar > They do, as well as software and I assume documentation. Zane From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Oct 17 13:32:56 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <000901c6f219$b9ef4dd0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <000901c6f219$b9ef4dd0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <200610171835.OAA29924@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I'll grant that consumers are not buying 10G-capable switches today, > but it's interesting that such a new switch still expects you to > initially say "hello" with an RS232 interface. (OK, the default is > DHCP, but the point still stands). I recently had occasion to configure a new low-end SMC switch (24 10/100 ports, four SFP 1000-capable ports; the 10/100 may actually be 10/100/1000). It didn't even *have* a serial port. Which was very annoying, too, especially since the manual did not include a description of how to reset it to factory settings. (Fortunately, it still had the defaults, and its Web(!) configuration interface had a help page which did describe that mechanism.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 17 13:49:49 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:49:49 -0400 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <012f01c6f21a$cc0d6820$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <200610161615350038.7D5B4985@10.0.0.252> <5ACDC127-A2AF-4A12-BA51-705D5ECB9AEA@neurotica.com> <200610170928290659.810CEC8A@10.0.0.252><45351555.6000104@neurotica.com> <45352085.40505@gmail.com> <012f01c6f21a$cc0d6820$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <453525CD.8070703@gmail.com> Jay West wrote: > Sridhar wrote.... >> Not that I know of. The dual-core Opteron nForce 550 system I just >> built has one. (But only one.) > > I wouldn't qualify a dual core opteron as typical stuff that shows up a > a flea market, or at best buy. I don't know if I could have bought a machine like this one at Best Buy, but I am reasonably certain that I could have bought all of the parts I used there. In fact, I did indeed buy my case, power supply, DVD burner and video card at Best Buy. This is a sub-$500 gaming box. Peace... Sridhar From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 17 13:53:41 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 11:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: machine emulation Message-ID: <20061017185341.67423.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> and was I tempted. O was I tempted. I could have been o so creative with the spelling of the first word in the subject line... I guess the question on many peep's mind is whether a utilization of virtual-8086 mode could be used to creative an emulation of something peecee-like (Tandy 2000 maybe?). I need to do some reading. Maybe should have done it first. I hope this isn't off-topic :O __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Oct 17 14:19:15 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:19:15 -0500 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <00f801c6f217$e5bdd230$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <200610170928290659.810CEC8A@10.0.0.252><45351555.6000104@neurotica.com> <200610171405.40406.pat@computer-refuge.org> <00f801c6f217$e5bdd230$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45352CB3.6010602@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > Pat wrote.... > >> Almost all the machines we have at work, which I admin, have >> RS-232 console ports.... > > That's true, most of your name brand data-center class Intel based (and > others) have full bios support for serial console. However, those are > not the typical machines a consumer buys. > > Just try finding a laptop these days that has a serial port. You won't > find much (if any). I daresay more than half the consumer grade PC's for > the home do not have serial ports on them either nowdays. > > RS232 as far as a general purpose consumer interface is dead. There are widgets available for PowerMacs and PowerBooks that replaces the modem with either an RS232 or Classic Mac-style RS422 8-din serial port. I couldn't quickly find the PB part, but here's one of the RS422 doohickeys: http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/ADA-GEE3.htm System manufacturers would probably like to ditch RS232 and RS422, and many have already, but the users won't let it die. Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 17 12:38:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:38:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <200610161615350038.7D5B4985@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 16, 6 04:15:35 pm Message-ID: > > On Oct 16, 2006, at 12:41 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > > I was at a Radio Shack a couple months ago and observed these line > > monitors being removed from inventory. They said they'd be > > liquidated by someone else. Jameco may be a more reliable source for > this gizmo > > now. > > I bought mine sometime back in the early 80's/late 70's along with a bunch > of the DB-25 "jumper boxes". A straight-through DB-25 cable, a couple of > gender-changers, a couple of DA-9-to-DB-25 converters, a null modem jumper > box and a LED monitor box pretty much will get you through any RS232C > hookup problem. A few things I'll add to that list : A 'universal RS232 ribbon cable'. I've never seen these for sale, you have to make them. It's a length of 25 way IDC cable with a DB25 plug and a DB25 socket crimped on at each end (4 conenctors total). It gets round gender problems, and it's also useful for linking my Tekky datacoms analyser to a line (this has a single DB25 socket on the back) I made up 2 different null-modem adapters. The fist one is labelled 'full handshake' and has the following connections : 1 (PG)---------------1 (PG) 2 (TxD) ------------ 3 (RxD) 3 (RxD) -------------2 (TxD) 4 (RTS)--------------5 (CTS) 5 (CTS) -------------4 (RTS) 6 (DSR)---+----------20 (DTR) 8 (DCD)---+ 7 (SG)---------------7 (SG) 20 (DTR) --------+---6 (DSR) +---8 (DCD) The other is labelled 'loopback handshake) and has these connections 1 (PG)---------------1 (PG) 2 (TxD)--------------3 (RxD) 3 (RxD)--------------2 (TxD) 4 (RTS)---+ +---4 (RTS) 5 (CTS----+ +---5 (CTS) 7 (SG)---------------7 (SG) 6 (DSR)---+ +---6 (DSR) 8 (DCD)---+ +---8 (DCD) 20 (DTR)--+ +---20 (DTR) The first is used when both ends make sensible use of the handshake lines, the second when the don't ( and you rely on software handshaking). I had to make up both of these myself, the null-modem adapter I bought ready made had a _crazy_ set of internal connections (I think 4 and 5 at each side were linked and linked to 4 and 5 at the other end). And for some reason the purchased one had a plug on one end and a socket on the other (mine home-made ones are sockets at both ends). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 17 12:39:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:39:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 (24 bit words) In-Reply-To: <453419EC.8070908@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Oct 16, 6 05:46:52 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I have a machine here that's 24 bit -- sort-of. The CPU registers are 24 > > bits wide, as is the ALU, and the full width of the ALU is used to > > calculate memory addresses (24 bit address bus). But the main memory data > > bus is 16 bits wide, normally loaded into the bottom 16 bits of the ALU > > path, but it's possible to take the bottom 8 bits of memory into the top > > 8 bits of the ALU path (thus letting you load all the bits of a 24 bit > > register from memory in 2 'goes'). > > > I am sure you know what that machine is... > > Well I don't know off hand. It sounds like a Seymour Cray design for I/O computer > but then you need the 'super computer' to go with it. No, it's a standalone machine. Hint, most of these machines were 20 bit, but otherwise identical. -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Oct 17 13:56:24 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:56:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pinball machine available Message-ID: <200610171856.OAA00198@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Okay, it's not quite typical fodder for here, but it seems to me to be close enough to count as on-topic. Two friends of mine (okay, a friend and an acquaintance) have a pinball machine. But it's sitting in a barn and they'd like to get it in the hands of someone who'll use/appreciate it before winter hits (it's been there for a few months, but this would be its first winter). I've never seen it myself. Here's what I've been told: It's a "Data East Robocop" machine. No date apparent to the person who looked (whom I'd primed to look for a date). One piece of glass is shattered; from the description, it sounds to me like the backglass - the vertical glass with artwork in front of the scoring and status displays at the back of the machine. I'm told it's also functionally broken in some minor way, but the person who characterized the malfunction as "minor" is no pinball expert, so I have no idea how accurate the characterization is. I also have no better description of the malfunction. The machine is near Ottawa (Ontario, Canada). So, my questions: (1) is it worth anything in its current shape, or does the damage (and/or maltreatment) cut its value to the point where it's comparable to the cost of hauling it away? (2) anyone have more specific relevant questions that can be answered by someone not versed in pinball machines or electromech devices in general? Oh, and (3) anyone want it? :-) (I'd be tempted myself except I have no place to put it.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 17 16:15:14 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:15:14 +0000 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 (24 bit words) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <453547E2.3060503@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> Well I don't know off hand. It sounds like a Seymour Cray design for I/O computer >> but then you need the 'super computer' to go with it. > > No, it's a standalone machine. Hint, most of these machines were 20 bit, > but otherwise identical. heh heh, wouldn't happen to begin with 'P', would it? :-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 17 15:19:04 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:19:04 +1300 Subject: Info needed on some 1980s-era Intel parts Message-ID: I've been trying to puzzle out a board in front of me, loaded with Intel chips. The CPU on it is a 16MHz 80186 - it appears to be an interface peripheral board for some Astro-Med product. Externally, it has a serial port and a GPIB port. What's strange to me is that I can't identify the parts that appear to be the GPIB buffers - a pair of 28-pin Intel D8293s. There's also a P82C08, which I can't find any hard info on. So... does anyone recognize the Intel part numbers P82C08 or D8293 (yes, I know the P is plastic and the D is ceramic; it's the parts themselves I'm curious about). Thanks, -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 17 15:24:08 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:24:08 -0600 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 (24 bit words) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45353BE8.1020303@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > No, it's a standalone machine. Hint, most of these machines were 20 bit, > but otherwise identical. Just send me the hardware & software and I will not have guess what machine you are thinking of. > -tony From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 17 15:18:49 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:18:49 -0600 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:38:07 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > A 'universal RS232 ribbon cable'. I've never seen these for sale, you > have to make them. [...] I've seen these for sale. I've even seen them with the DB9 style and DB25 style connectors on each end. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 17 15:27:52 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:27:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Info needed on some 1980s-era Intel parts In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 18, 6 09:19:04 am Message-ID: > > So... does anyone recognize the Intel part numbers P82C08 or D8293 I don;t know where you'd find data sheets in electronic form (I think I have them on paper), but the 8293 is a GPIB buffer (the 8291 was the talker/listener chip, the 8292, actually a programmed microcontroler (8042?) was the GPIB contorlelr add-on). And I think the 8208 was some kind of DRAM controller. What indormation do you need? If it's just pinouts I might well be able to tyoe them up. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 17 15:34:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:34:05 -0700 Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI Message-ID: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> The talk about RS-232C reminded me of another simple interface that's been around for awhile--MIDI. I hate MIDI cables--I mean I REALLY hate them. I trip over them, they get tangled up in my chair and I'm afraid the dog will eat them. I've seen a couple of wireless MIDI adaptors, but since they're low-volume items, they're freakishly expensive. Does anyone have any ideas or experience with a low-budget wireless MIDI setup? Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Oct 17 15:39:00 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Oct 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The talk about RS-232C reminded me of another simple interface that's been > around for awhile--MIDI. > > I hate MIDI cables--I mean I REALLY hate them. I trip over them, they get > tangled up in my chair and I'm afraid the dog will eat them. > > I've seen a couple of wireless MIDI adaptors, but since they're low-volume > items, they're freakishly expensive. Does anyone have any ideas or > experience with a low-budget wireless MIDI setup? This topic pops up now and then at http://www.midibox.org/. If you want to homebrew your own solution, this is one of the better places to start. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 17 15:39:15 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:39:15 -0400 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <200610171405.40406.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200610170928290659.810CEC8A@10.0.0.252> <45351555.6000104@neurotica.com> <200610171405.40406.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Oct 17, 2006, at 2:05 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>>> Ha! Not anytime soon, for better or worse. The same thing was >>>> said about things like the Z80, which is being made in larger >>>> quantities than ever before. >>> >>> Observe that I said that RS-232C was "obsolescent" and not >>> "obsolete"--I'm merely implying that it's on a slow decline. The >>> primary uses--connecting an external modem or terminal to a PC >>> aren't nearly as important today as they once were. USB and other >>> interfaces have largely usurped the position that the old "serial >>> port" interface enjoyed. >> >> Indeed, I stand corrected, and I agree with your assessment. The >> applications of RS232 certainly have changed over the years. > > I dunno. Almost all the machines we have at work, which I admin, have > RS-232 console ports.... Well, all server-class computers have serial console ports. I thought he was talking about PCs. > we even set up our crappy Dell 1U servers with > a serial console connection. That's one use for a serial port (and > the > most common that I can think of now-a-days) that's been around for > well > over 30 years... > > And, by the way, it's so much easier to use a text-based serial > console > over a remote connection from home to fix a problem with a machine, > than to either do KVM over IP or VNC-based system management. A lot > (if not most) of the machines that we care about enough to have > consoles, even PC's, allow access to the firmware/BIOS from the serial > console, as well as our bootloader and OS supporting a serial > console. :) Oh absolutely. If you're serious about your data center, your machines have serial consoles...it's as simple as that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 17 15:42:03 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:42:03 -0400 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <000901c6f219$b9ef4dd0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <000901c6f219$b9ef4dd0$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <4CCB4393-E4F8-410B-8C47-0E88B65C89A6@neurotica.com> On Oct 17, 2006, at 2:26 PM, wrote: >> RS232 as far as a general purpose consumer interface is dead. > > Interestingly when I needed to configure a *10Gbps* interface today on > An HP 3500yl-48G switch, I needed to connect via RS232 (and VT100 > emulation > Mode!!) to assign an IP address to the switch. This is hardly "general-purpose consumer" hardware. > I'll grant that consumers are not buying 10G-capable switches > today, but > it's interesting that such a new switch still expects you to initially > say > "hello" with an RS232 interface. (OK, the default is DHCP, but the > point > still stands). > > My RS232 breakout boxes are still a way from being retired. ...as are everyone else's. As I just mentioned in another message, I believe the "dead" comment was meant in relation to desktop personal computing hardware. Indeed, I bought a PowerMac G4 shortly after their release, and it had no serial ports...that was at least six years ago. He did specifically state "as a general purpose consumer interface". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 17 15:44:26 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:44:26 -0400 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <45352CB3.6010602@mdrconsult.com> References: <200610170928290659.810CEC8A@10.0.0.252><45351555.6000104@neurotica.com> <200610171405.40406.pat@computer-refuge.org> <00f801c6f217$e5bdd230$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45352CB3.6010602@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Oct 17, 2006, at 3:19 PM, Doc Shipley wrote: > System manufacturers would probably like to ditch RS232 and > RS422, and many have already, but the users won't let it die. Ahh, one of the few remaining instances in which the customer base dictates what the vendors sell, instead of the vendors ramming unwanted stuff down their customers' throats. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 17 15:45:06 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:45:06 -0400 Subject: Info needed on some 1980s-era Intel parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F641E76-A6F6-47E7-8F74-2943BB4CF49A@neurotica.com> On Oct 17, 2006, at 4:19 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've been trying to puzzle out a board in front of me, loaded with > Intel chips. The CPU on it is a 16MHz 80186 - it appears to be an > interface peripheral board for some Astro-Med product. Externally, it > has a serial port and a GPIB port. What's strange to me is that I > can't identify the parts that appear to be the GPIB buffers - a pair > of 28-pin Intel D8293s. There's also a P82C08, which I can't find any > hard info on. > > So... does anyone recognize the Intel part numbers P82C08 or D8293 > (yes, I know the P is plastic and the D is ceramic; it's the parts > themselves I'm curious about). Hmm...The 8208 is a DRAM controller. Dunno about the 8293. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Oct 17 15:35:06 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:35:06 +0100 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <00f801c6f217$e5bdd230$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <200610170928290659.810CEC8A@10.0.0.252><45351555.6000104@neurotica.com><200610171405.40406.pat@computer-refuge.org> <00f801c6f217$e5bdd230$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45353E7A.20807@dunnington.plus.com> Jay West wrote: > Pat wrote.... > >> Almost all the machines we have at work, which I admin, have >> RS-232 console ports.... > Just try finding a laptop these days that has a serial port. You won't > find much (if any). I daresay more than half the consumer grade PC's for > the home do not have serial ports on them either nowdays. None of the recent desktops I've seen have one, but some of the most recent Toshiba laptops do, interestingly. I almost bought one for that very reason. > RS232 as far as a general purpose consumer interface is dead. True. Fortunately, the USB-to-RS232 adapters I've seen recently work well, unlike some I saw a year or two ago. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 17 15:50:23 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 09:50:23 +1300 Subject: Info needed on some 1980s-era Intel parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/18/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > So... does anyone recognize the Intel part numbers P82C08 or D8293 > > I don't know where you'd find data sheets in electronic form... Indeed... I did look first. > (I think I have them on paper) Those could be handy some day if I ever try to re-use the chips. > but the 8293 is a GPIB buffer That makes sense given where the wires go, but I had just never heard of the part before. >(the 8291 was the talker/listener chip, the 8292, actually a programmed microcontroler > (8042?) was the GPIB contorlelr add-on). Good call - there does happen to be an 8291 on the board, next to the buffers, but no sign of an 8292. There _is_ an 8256, but given its location, I'm guessing it's a UART. There is also a Siemens 8282 nearby that seems to link into the 8291 - could that be the micro-controller? It's 20 pins, and has a printed date code such as one would see on a programmable part. > And I think the 8208 was some kind of DRAM controller. That makes sense - it's next to a bank of 32 41256s. > What indormation do you need? If it's just pinouts I might well be able > to tyoe them up. Primarily, I was curious as to what the GPIB parts were - the board is out of the scrap pile, and I was contemplating scavenging the GPIB-related parts in the hopes of someday wiring them to some machine to talk to Commodore-brand disks and printers. At this point, I might or might not take the time to desolder them. Honestly, I'd rather go with more common parts since if I do build an interface, I'd hate to be at a loss for spare parts or for it to be difficult to make a second one. Thanks for the great info and the quick response, Tony. -ethan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Oct 17 15:58:51 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:58:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale In-Reply-To: <45352AFD.1040209@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0q3b9np663.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <2884.84.201.153.130.1161107323.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <45352AFD.1040209@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <3508.84.201.153.130.1161118731.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Tue, October 17, 2006 8:11 pm, Jules Richardson said: > In other words, none left on the UK side of the pond :-( I don't think > there > are even any in private hands... cheer me up why don't you! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Tue Oct 17 16:09:24 2006 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:09:24 -0500 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <00f801c6f217$e5bdd230$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: We have a Dell box at work that doesn't even have a Centronics parallel port -- just USB ports. I needed to get a USB-to-Parallel converter cable to hook up the laserjet to this box. Bob >From: "Jay West" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: PDT-11/150 down >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 13:12:54 -0500 > >Pat wrote.... > >>Almost all the machines we have at work, which I admin, have >>RS-232 console ports.... >That's true, most of your name brand data-center class Intel based (and >others) have full bios support for serial console. However, those are not >the typical machines a consumer buys. > >Just try finding a laptop these days that has a serial port. You won't find >much (if any). I daresay more than half the consumer grade PC's for the >home do not have serial ports on them either nowdays. > >RS232 as far as a general purpose consumer interface is dead. > >Jay > From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 17 16:10:22 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:10:22 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Chuck wrote.... > I hate MIDI cables--I mean I REALLY hate them. I trip over them, they get > tangled up in my chair and I'm afraid the dog will eat them. Heard of a MIDI patch-bay? :D I recently bought a USB Midisport 8x8/S. Love it. At least it helps aggregate where the cables go to. > I've seen a couple of wireless MIDI adaptors, but since they're low-volume > items, they're freakishly expensive. Does anyone have any ideas or > experience with a low-budget wireless MIDI setup? >From vague foggy probably incorrect memory - isn't the baud rate on midi ports/cables unusually high - far higher than typical serial ports? I wonder if this is why it's not available commonly? Jay West From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Oct 17 16:13:16 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:13:16 -0400 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4535476C.3020709@gmail.com> Robert Feldman wrote: > We have a Dell box at work that doesn't even have a Centronics parallel > port -- just USB ports. I needed to get a USB-to-Parallel converter > cable to hook up the laserjet to this box. My new PC doesn't have one either, but that's no big loss as all of my printers are on the network in one way or another. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 17 16:16:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:16:55 -0700 Subject: Info needed on some 1980s-era Intel parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200610171416550880.8214FE47@10.0.0.252> On 10/18/2006 at 9:19 AM Ethan Dicks wrote: >I've been trying to puzzle out a board in front of me, loaded with >Intel chips. The CPU on it is a 16MHz 80186 - it appears to be an >interface peripheral board for some Astro-Med product. Externally, it >has a serial port and a GPIB port. What's strange to me is that I >can't identify the parts that appear to be the GPIB buffers - a pair >of 28-pin Intel D8293s. There's also a P82C08, which I can't find any >hard info on. Tony's got it right--the 8293's a GPIB transceiver--no intelligence in it. It's in the 1983 Intel Microprocessor and Peripheral Handbook. If you need pinouts, etc. I can scan it for you. The 8208's a DRAM controller--I've got the datasheet for the 8207, which is probably very similar. Cheers, Chuck > >So... does anyone recognize the Intel part numbers P82C08 or D8293 >(yes, I know the P is plastic and the D is ceramic; it's the parts >themselves I'm curious about). > >Thanks, > >-ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 17 17:17:54 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:17:54 +0000 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <00f801c6f217$e5bdd230$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <200610170928290659.810CEC8A@10.0.0.252><45351555.6000104@neurotica.com> <200610171405.40406.pat@computer-refuge.org> <00f801c6f217$e5bdd230$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45355692.8010204@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > Pat wrote.... > >> Almost all the machines we have at work, which I admin, have >> RS-232 console ports.... > That's true, most of your name brand data-center class Intel based (and > others) have full bios support for serial console. However, those are > not the typical machines a consumer buys. I wonder why the original IBM PC didn't include it? I mean, typical machines of that era relied on a serial terminal for control - yet IBM made it pretty much compulsory to have a video board of some description (even if it was just MDA). Sure, they probably never foresaw the PC as a server class system, but given what everyone else was doing at the time I'm surprised they ruled the feature out (at least without a BIOS rewrite). OK, so you can redirect stuff under DOS (or another OS) once booted, but that still means that on typical PC machines you get no feedback on the boot process until the OS has control... > Just try finding a laptop these days that has a serial port. You won't > find much (if any). I daresay more than half the consumer grade PC's for > the home do not have serial ports on them either nowdays. That's why I still have this old Thinkpad - at least it has serial and parallel built in (and USB for when I have to use it), even if it is a bit long in the tooth. [I'm struggling to avoid a general rant about USB at this point] > RS232 as far as a general purpose consumer interface is dead. In a way, I suppose it doesn't fit for a lot of devices beyond things like terminals and modems and simple, low-speed stuff like UPS status/control. Most consumer devices are just too bandwidth-hungry for serial - but that's what parallel ports and SCSI were for; we didn't *need* yet another interface standard... Makes me wonder how well SCSI would have fared had it been hot-pluggable from the start, as that seems to be the main benefit of USB (even if the Microsoft guys can't seem to get the software side of it right!) cheers Jules -- Put your viking helmet on Spread that mayonnaise on the lawn Don't you know it's Weasel Stomping Day From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 17 17:25:34 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:25:34 +0000 Subject: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale In-Reply-To: <3508.84.201.153.130.1161118731.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <0q3b9np663.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <2884.84.201.153.130.1161107323.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <45352AFD.1040209@yahoo.co.uk> <3508.84.201.153.130.1161118731.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4535585E.4090005@yahoo.co.uk> Witchy wrote: > On Tue, October 17, 2006 8:11 pm, Jules Richardson said: >> In other words, none left on the UK side of the pond :-( I don't think >> there >> are even any in private hands... > > cheer me up why don't you! sorry :-P There's always the DECSystem 570 and the VAX 8600 to get your teeth into - not quite in the same league, but they're still both big DECs to mess around with! -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From blkline at attglobal.net Tue Oct 17 15:51:17 2006 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:51:17 -0400 Subject: Pinball machine available In-Reply-To: <200610171856.OAA00198@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200610171856.OAA00198@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45354245.3070107@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 der Mouse wrote: > So, my questions: (1) is it worth anything in its current shape, or > does the damage (and/or maltreatment) cut its value to the point where > it's comparable to the cost of hauling it away? It is definitely worth less due to the damage, but I treat pins the same way as rarer computing equipment -- save them! You can find out more about that machine here: http://www.ipdb.org/search.pl?any=robocop&search=Search+Database&searchtype=quick Even if there is nasty damage to a machine, you can part them out. > (2) anyone have more > specific relevant questions that can be answered by someone not versed > in pinball machines or electromech devices in general? I'd like to know exactly what has been damaged. A few digital pix would go a long way to answering the questions, since one picture is worth a thousand words! > > Oh, and (3) anyone want it? :-) (I'd be tempted myself except I have > no place to put it.) I'd be interested, if I can figure a way to get it here (North American Van Lines is the standard transportation method). Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFNUJFCFu3bIiwtTARAiQIAJ9cortVGyOC0bga6DoWDz3fkIFUaACeNvGO W8ZM0whJeGVBleVhJcaX+Vw= =gTHC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 17 16:37:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:37:46 -0700 Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200610171437460793.8228148F@10.0.0.252> On 10/17/2006 at 4:10 PM Jay West wrote: >From vague foggy probably incorrect memory - isn't the baud rate on midi >ports/cables unusually high - far higher than typical serial ports? I >wonder if this is why it's not available commonly? It's high--but not ridiculously so--31.250 Kbit/sec--and no hardware handshaking. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Oct 17 16:44:02 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:44:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Oct 2006, Jay West wrote: > Chuck wrote.... > > I hate MIDI cables--I mean I REALLY hate them. I trip over them, they get > > tangled up in my chair and I'm afraid the dog will eat them. > Heard of a MIDI patch-bay? :D I recently bought a USB Midisport 8x8/S. Love > it. At least it helps aggregate where the cables go to. > > > I've seen a couple of wireless MIDI adaptors, but since they're low-volume > > items, they're freakishly expensive. Does anyone have any ideas or > > experience with a low-budget wireless MIDI setup? > > > From vague foggy probably incorrect memory - isn't the baud rate on midi > ports/cables unusually high - far higher than typical serial ports? I wonder > if this is why it's not available commonly? Wired midi is a balanced current loop running at 19.2kbps. For obvious reasons, low latency is extremely important and noise is intolerable. These two are big reasons why wireless implementations are expensive. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 17 16:45:58 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:45:58 +1300 Subject: Classic ports missing on modern machines (was Re: PDT-11/150 down) Message-ID: On 10/18/06, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Robert Feldman wrote: > > We have a Dell box at work that doesn't even have a Centronics parallel > > port -- just USB ports. I needed to get a USB-to-Parallel converter > > cable to hook up the laserjet to this box. > > My new PC doesn't have one either, but that's no big loss as all of my > printers are on the network in one way or another. That's true at my place, too, but I have plenty of uses for a parallel port on a machine that has nothing to do with printing and I'm not happy to see that port go on modern machines. (examples - parallel-wired LCDs on LCDproc, analog meters, etc). Likewise, I lament the loss of the serial port on modern laptops (still on desktops so far). I probably have some serial device plugged into my primary desktop 90% of the time. -ethan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Oct 17 16:46:02 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:46:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale In-Reply-To: <4535585E.4090005@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0q3b9np663.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <2884.84.201.153.130.1161107323.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <45352AFD.1040209@yahoo.co.uk> <3508.84.201.153.130.1161118731.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <4535585E.4090005@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <3669.84.201.153.130.1161121562.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Tue, October 17, 2006 11:25 pm, Jules Richardson said: > > There's always the DECSystem 570 and the VAX 8600 to get your teeth into - > not > quite in the same league, but they're still both big DECs to mess around > with! yeah, but the chances of there being 3-phase power in L149 are as slim as Callista Flockhart :) At least the 8600 is complete, it just needs to be put back together properly.... *looks for picture of VAX8600, fails* -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 17 16:50:49 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:50:49 +1300 Subject: VAX 8600 (was Re: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale) Message-ID: On 10/18/06, Witchy wrote: > On Tue, October 17, 2006 11:25 pm, Jules Richardson said: > > > > There's always the DECSystem 570 and the VAX 8600 to get your teeth into - > > *looks for picture of VAX8600, fails* Google Image search is your friend... http://hampage.hu/vax/e_1984.html I never ran one, but I used to walk past one in a semi-stripped condition at Lucent in Columbus, OH, c. 1997. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 17 16:53:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 14:53:28 -0700 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <45355692.8010204@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200610170928290659.810CEC8A@10.0.0.252> <45351555.6000104@neurotica.com> <200610171405.40406.pat@computer-refuge.org> <00f801c6f217$e5bdd230$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45355692.8010204@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200610171453280266.8236721D@10.0.0.252> On 10/17/2006 at 10:17 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >OK, so you can redirect stuff under DOS (or another OS) once booted, but >that still means that on typical PC machines you get no feedback on the boot >process until the OS has control... Of course, even the original 5150 had a serial port--most people just tend not to think of it as such. Namely, the keyboard interface. When the AT came along, it was fully bidirectional. >Makes me wonder how well SCSI would have fared had it been hot-pluggable >from the start, as that seems to be the main benefit of USB (even if the >Microsoft guys can't seem to get the software side of it right!) You're forgetting how much voodoo factor there was to SCSI. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 17 17:02:13 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 15:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Semi-OT: "Inkjet Printable" CD/DVD blanks Message-ID: <200610172202.k9HM2DU7025635@onyx.spiritone.com> Strange question, but it directly relates to preservation of classic computer data. My perfered brand of CD/DVD blanks are the Verbatim DataLifePlus disks. There is no doubt in my mind that these disks have a good long lifespan (though I do need to see about doing a data refresh on some). However, due to their cost, they are no longer that easy to obtain. One source I've been considering using seems to only sell the ones that are "InkJet Printer" ready. I have no desire to use an inkjet printer to do this, does anyone know how safe is it to use a standard "CD Marker" on these blanks? It seems to me that these might actually be easier to write on, and be able to read what you've written than most I've been using. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 17 17:06:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 15:06:33 -0700 Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200610171506330491.82426D56@10.0.0.252> On 10/17/2006 at 2:44 PM David Griffith wrote: >Wired midi is a balanced current loop running at 19.2kbps. For obvious >reasons, low latency is extremely important and noise is intolerable. >These two are big reasons why wireless implementations are expensive. Unbeknownst to me (and probably a lot of other people), there's been an IEEE working group for MIDI-over-ethernet: http://web.archive.org/web/20030625013841/www.plus24.com/ieee1639/ The industry midi.org seems to be at best, lukewarm about the whole affair: http://www.midi.org/about-midi/ethernet.shtml Maybe I'll wait a few more years... Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 17 17:10:10 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 15:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic ports missing on modern machines (was Re: PDT-11/150 down) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 18, 2006 10:45:58 AM Message-ID: <200610172210.k9HMAAeR025741@onyx.spiritone.com> Ethan wrote: > On 10/18/06, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Robert Feldman wrote: > > > We have a Dell box at work that doesn't even have a Centronics parallel > > > port -- just USB ports. I needed to get a USB-to-Parallel converter > > > cable to hook up the laserjet to this box. > > > > My new PC doesn't have one either, but that's no big loss as all of my > > printers are on the network in one way or another. > > That's true at my place, too, but I have plenty of uses for a parallel > port on a machine that has nothing to do with printing and I'm not > happy to see that port go on modern machines. > > (examples - parallel-wired LCDs on LCDproc, analog meters, etc). > > Likewise, I lament the loss of the serial port on modern laptops > (still on desktops so far). I probably have some serial device > plugged into my primary desktop 90% of the time. I just built a new PC, I didn't even think about ports. I personally have very little use for Parallel ports, and am more interested in Serial ports. I didn't even think about it not having a Serial port until I was finishing putting the system together. At least it does have a header for a serial port on the Motherboard, I'll just have to find a port to connect to it (as that didn't come with the board). Oh, and the board does have a Parallel port. Hmmm, this got me to thinking, and a quick check shows the local "PC Chop Shop" I buy parts from does sell Serial and Parallel PCI adapters. The only thing is, they're one port to a card. How hard would it be to put both ports on one card! As for laptops, I didn't realize that my work Thinkpad I use doesn't have one until about a month ago (and I've had it for nearly 3 years). The lack of a serial port on a work laptop is a definite pain. You main not need it often, but when you do... Zane From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Oct 17 17:27:15 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:27:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: References: <200610162207.k9GM7CnO009172@floodgap.com> <20061016152750.R50658@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Oct 2006, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/17/06, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Last time that I bought any of those from Radio Shack or Fry's, I had > > to pop it open and resolder most of the connections. > > I did for mine, too, but that was 15 years ago. If you don't buy the > expensive ones from a company like Black Box, expect to have to fix > cheap workmanship. Oddly enough, I've not had any problems with mine, though having said that, I'll probably have to open it up next time I go to use it. I've never completely understood Black Box's business model. Some of the adapters and cables they sell at a premium price are simply OEM'd products with their own sticker/logo stuck on them. Did they offer some sort of guarantee beyond what the manufacturer would have offered? > OTOH, my $10 unit was in tiptop shape after 5 minutes work, so overall, > it still was a good price. I actually picked up an older but practically new serial analyzer on eBay this last month for about $10. Its a Datacom Technologies DataTool 5500, which is both an analyzer and a breakout box built into one unit. (Datacom Technologies either became Tempo or got bought up by them, I can't remember now.) I believe it only works up to 38400 baud or so, but it will work great for most stuff that I work with. Wish I'd had it back in the mid 90s though ;) -Toth From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 17 17:34:12 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:34:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: 8" disk archive Message-ID: <200610172234.k9HMYAhN045230@keith.ezwind.net> --- Kelly Leavitt wrote: > I'm actually starting the archiving of the more > than 1,500 8" disks that I have. Here are my > intended methods. If anyone has any comments, plea se > speak up. > The ultimate goal is an online searchable database > of these disks. > > 1) number each diskette sequentially with date > 2) taking a digital picture of the label > 3) Making a catweasel image of the contents > 4) Makine an ImageDisk image of the contents > 5) Storing the following information in a database > Diskette number > Any text from the label > System if known > OS used if known > Date of origin if known > Description of contents > if commercial software, the publisher/author > Photo of the label > Both disk images > > Kelly > Sounds like you'll be busy for a long time with archiving all those disks. Do you have any ideas what you will call the site with the archive? Perhaps you should announce a beta version (when it's up and running) for us to test? I generally cataloge my 3.5" disks (mostly Amiga, some PC and a handful of Atari ST disks) so I can find programs I want fairly quickly. Having approx. 600 disks I really need to do that, otherwise I'd be searching for hours :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 17 17:45:20 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 17:45:20 -0500 Subject: VAX 8600 (was Re: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45355D00.7010604@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/18/06, Witchy wrote: >> On Tue, October 17, 2006 11:25 pm, Jules Richardson said: >> > >> > There's always the DECSystem 570 and the VAX 8600 to get your teeth >> into - >> >> *looks for picture of VAX8600, fails* > > Google Image search is your friend... > > http://hampage.hu/vax/e_1984.html That's the critter. Ours looks to be the CPU dual cabinet plus seven other cabinets; I've not seen an inventory of exactly what we've got. The machine's stashed halfway across the country in off-site in storage, so it's less than easy to get to right now! (Actually, it's even more difficult for me given that I'm not in the country ;) cheers Jules -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 17 17:46:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:46:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Info needed on some 1980s-era Intel parts In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 18, 6 09:50:23 am Message-ID: > > On 10/18/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > So... does anyone recognize the Intel part numbers P82C08 or D8293 > > > > I don't know where you'd find data sheets in electronic form... > > Indeed... I did look first. > > > (I think I have them on paper) > > Those could be handy some day if I ever try to re-use the chips. > > > but the 8293 is a GPIB buffer > > That makes sense given where the wires go, but I had just never heard > of the part before. It wasn't a commonly-used one, but it certainly did exist. > > >(the 8291 was the talker/listener chip, the 8292, actually a > programmed microcontroler > > (8042?) was the GPIB contorlelr add-on). > > Good call - there does happen to be an 8291 on the board, next to the > buffers, but no sign of an 8292. There _is_ an 8256, but given its The 8291 gives you all the functions you need to make a talker or listener -- that is a deviec which doesn't act as an GPIB bus controller. The 8292 adds the functions to act as a controller. If you're making a peripjheral, you only need the 8291. If you're making a GPIB controller -- that is a device that can send bus commands, etc, you _also_ need the 8292. The 8292 appears to be a programmed microcontroller, probably an 8042, but I wouldn't swear to that. > location, I'm guessing it's a UART. The number doesn't ring any bells, but I can try to look it up. > There is also a Siemens 8282 nearby that seems to link into the 8291 - > could that be the micro-controller? It's 20 pins, and has a printed I doubt it. It sounds more like a bus buffer. Is there any other procesor on this board? As I said, if this is a peripheral, you'd not need the 8292. > date code such as one would see on a programmable part. > > > And I think the 8208 was some kind of DRAM controller. > > That makes sense - it's next to a bank of 32 41256s. > > > What indormation do you need? If it's just pinouts I might well be able > > to tyoe them up. > > Primarily, I was curious as to what the GPIB parts were - the board is > out of the scrap pile, and I was contemplating scavenging the > GPIB-related parts in the hopes of someday wiring them to some machine > to talk to Commodore-brand disks and printers. If you want to do that, you need to make a GPIB controller. You could use the 8293s and bit-bang the protocol using parallel interface ICs like 6522s (the 8255 has problems, since you can't reverse the direction of the port lines.....). Or you could use something like a 9914. Personally I'd stay away from the 8291, it's an Intel chip and we all know those are unpleasant to use!. If you're only linking to one or two GPIB devices, you can get away with using 74LS14's as the receivers and something like 7438s (open-collector outputs) as the drivers. Yes, it doesn't meet the spec but I can assure you it'll work. If you're really curious, I have schematics for the first HPIB interface -- the one that goes in the HP9830. That used no special ICs at all, just TTL and discretes (I have an idea the output drivers were discrete transistors). > > At this point, I might or might not take the time to desolder them. I'd save them, but I'd not use them in a new design. Keep them for the time you have some rare device that uses them and needs to be fixed. If you can find them, I'd go for a TMS9914 GPIB interface chip and 75160 + 75162 buffers. They are fairly easy to find I think. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 17 18:29:30 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:29:30 +1300 Subject: Info needed on some 1980s-era Intel parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/18/06, Tony Duell wrote: > The 8291 gives you all the functions you need to make a talker or > listener -- that is a deviec which doesn't act as an GPIB bus controller. Gotcha. > The 8292 adds the functions to act as a controller. If you're making a > peripjheral, you only need the 8291. If you're making a GPIB controller > -- that is a device that can send bus commands, etc, you _also_ need the > 8292. The 8292 appears to be a programmed microcontroller, probably an > 8042, but I wouldn't swear to that. Makes sense - this board is almost certainly a peripheral board, not a controller. > > There is also a Siemens 8282 nearby that seems to link into the 8291 - > > could that be the micro-controller? It's 20 pins, and has a printed > > I doubt it. It sounds more like a bus buffer. As I've just noticed there are 3 of them, that also makes sense. > Is there any other procesor on this board? Yes... I mentioned the 16 Mhz 80186 in the initial message. > > Primarily, I was curious as to what the GPIB parts were - the board is > > out of the scrap pile, and I was contemplating scavenging the > > GPIB-related parts in the hopes of someday wiring them to some machine > > to talk to Commodore-brand disks and printers. > > If you want to do that, you need to make a GPIB controller. You could use > the 8293s and bit-bang the protocol using parallel interface ICs... I've seen several implementations of that - easy enough to do the hardware - all the work is in the software (and avoiding timing problems). > ...like 6522s (the 8255 has problems, since you can't reverse the direction of > the port lines.....). Right. Since my first experience with chips of this nature was with the 6520s (6821) and 6522s in Commodore equipment, I was taken aback at how clunky the 8255 is to work with. Still, between my SBC6120, my RB5X, my MC-1N, and several other devices, I'm continually suprised how common the 8255 is. I guess if being able to pick a direction and stick with it isn't a problem (dedicated in and out ports and such), the 8255 isn't so bad. It just lacks a flexibility commonly found in members of the 65xx family. > Or you could use something like a 9914. Personally > I'd stay away from the 8291, it's an Intel chip and we all know those are > unpleasant to use!. That certainly all makes sense. > If you're only linking to one or two GPIB devices, you can get away with > using 74LS14's as the receivers and something like 7438s (open-collector > outputs) as the drivers. Yes, it doesn't meet the spec but I can assure > you it'll work. Interesting - given how rare (to me, at least) "proper" GPIB drivers are, that's handy to know... most of the time, for the sorts of tasks I'm thinking about, 2 peripherals is about the most I'd be talking to. > If you're really curious, I have schematics for the first > HPIB interface -- the one that goes in the HP9830. That used no special > ICs at all, just TTL and discretes (I have an idea the output drivers > were discrete transistors). I'm always interested in learning about new GPIB implemenations. > > At this point, I might or might not take the time to desolder them. > > I'd save them, but I'd not use them in a new design. Keep them for the > time you have some rare device that uses them and needs to be fixed. Good idea. > If you can find them, I'd go for a TMS9914 GPIB interface chip and 75160 > + 75162 buffers. They are fairly easy to find I think. I've seen those buffers on cards for the C-64 and VIC-20, but have no experience with the TMS9914. ISTR there is at least one ISA design using the 9914, so if I see one of those cards float by, I could always extract the chips from that board (and install sockets in case I want to use the ISA board later). Thanks for all the good info, -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 17 18:32:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:32:01 -0700 Subject: Info needed on some 1980s-era Intel parts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200610171632010945.8290ADD0@10.0.0.252> On 10/17/2006 at 11:46 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >> >(the 8291 was the talker/listener chip, the 8292, actually a >> programmed microcontroler (8042?) was the GPIB contorlelr add-on). In one of their rare bits of candor, Intel admits right in the databook that the 8292 is a preprogrammed 8041A. I've got a x80 board here that uses the 92/93 to talk to a hard disk drive. I think I also have the schematics for same and I definitely have the driver source. There were a couple of "quirks", but nothing too awful. If you're not dealing with very high-speed devices, (e.g. voltmeters, etc.) and only talking to a single device, a simple bidirectional printer port can provide most of the functionality of GPIB/HPIB. Sometime in the mid-80's, I released a bit of code (may still be in SIMTEL) for a DOS TSR to drive an HP Plotter through the printer port. It wasn't an original idea--I saw the printer port on the Victor 9000 used to do the same thing. Victor would even sell you a cable for that purpose. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 17 18:39:20 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:39:20 +1300 Subject: Serial devices, analyzers, etc (was Re: PDT-11/150 down) Message-ID: On 10/18/06, Tothwolf wrote: > I've never completely understood Black Box's business model. Some of the > adapters and cables they sell at a premium price are simply OEM'd products > with their own sticker/logo stuck on them. Did they offer some sort of > guarantee beyond what the manufacturer would have offered? If I understand their business model, they charged a premium, but what the customer gained was a single place to go (one catalog, one vendor to send POs to, etc), and some "big name" reassurance. In my experience, large companies deal with small companies poorly or not at all. If a small company comes up with a nice comms-related widget, they can try to sell it themselves with potentially mixed success, or sell quantities in black enclosures through Black Box and get instant exposure when the next catalog comes out. > I actually picked up an older but practically new serial analyzer on eBay > this last month for about $10. Its a Datacom Technologies DataTool 5500, > which is both an analyzer and a breakout box built into one unit. (Datacom > Technologies either became Tempo or got bought up by them, I can't > remember now.) I believe it only works up to 38400 baud or so, but it will > work great for most stuff that I work with. Wish I'd had it back in the > mid 90s though ;) I'm not familiar with that one. We had several analyzers (HP) and BERT boxes (bit error-rate tester?) when I worked at Software Results making sync comms hardware - fortunately I got to take my pick when the doors closed. I still have a bunch of that kit, and it's still useful since most of the gear does async as well as sync. If your analyzer only goes to 38Kbps, it's probably async only. Sync stuff I've worked with, tended to go up to 64Kbps or even 128Kbps (if it wasn't designed for T1-like connections). -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 17 18:53:15 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:53:15 -0700 Subject: 8" disk archive Message-ID: > If anyone has any comments, please speak up. If the contents can be identified, consider some form of checksum per file. Eventually, as multiple copies of the same discs are found from different sources you can verify file integrity. If they are original distrib discs, checksums of the entire volume can be used for disc integrity (and for simple checks for viruses on newer media) From spc at conman.org Tue Oct 17 18:55:43 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:55:43 -0400 Subject: Hot swappable SCSI (was Re: PDT-11/150 down) In-Reply-To: <45355692.8010204@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200610171405.40406.pat@computer-refuge.org> <00f801c6f217$e5bdd230$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45355692.8010204@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061017235543.GF11047@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jules Richardson once stated: > > Makes me wonder how well SCSI would have fared had it been hot-pluggable > from the start, as that seems to be the main benefit of USB (even if the > Microsoft guys can't seem to get the software side of it right!) Would have been nice, and would have saved me 16 hours of recovery time and my boss endless ribbing for attempting to add a SCSI drive to the AIX system (the core of the ISP I was working for at the time) without shutting it down first. -spc (Not sure which version AIX, but it was late 93 when it happened) From kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu Tue Oct 17 19:30:41 2006 From: kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu (Mark KAHRS) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SDS/XDS-940 (900 series) Message-ID: I admit, I cut my teeth on that machine and so I continue to ask around for remaining tidbits. My friends at Tymshare don't have bits apparently and I wasn't around when the 940s went out the back door. Al K. has my copy of the monitor (kernel) listing; that could be OCR'ed but what about the executive and all the other stuff? But the real question is: What does MUL =12525253B do? From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Oct 17 19:34:10 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:34:10 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 38, Issue 25 In-Reply-To: <200610172331.k9HNVDwN086292@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001001c6f24d$217531d0$6600a8c0@barry> Re: "I just built a new PC, I didn't even think about ports. I personally have very little use for Parallel ports, and am more interested in Serial ports. I didn't even think about it not having a Serial port until I was finishing putting the system together. At least it does have a header for a serial port on the Motherboard, I'll just have to find a port to connect to it (as that didn't come with the board). Oh, and the board does have a Parallel port." Let me guess: Asus P5B? I chose a Gigabyte GA-965P-DS3 instead of the P5B primarily for just that reason (the boards themselves are nearly identical). The P5B uses one of the two "standard" cables. Look on alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus about 60 days ago and you will find a discussion of this, along with the specs for the cable (there are two "standards" for this cable, different and incompatible, so you need to get the right one). I can't believe Asus' stupidity in not putting the DB-9 on the I/O shield OR at least in not including the cable to the header. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Oct 17 19:40:45 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:40:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200610180043.UAA11655@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> From vague foggy probably incorrect memory - isn't the baud rate on >> midi ports/cables unusually high - far higher than typical serial >> ports? > Wired midi is a balanced current loop running at 19.2kbps. Not 19.2. It's high but not insanely high, somewhere in the low tens of kbps I think. However, I'm quite sure it's not one of the usual serial-port speeds, which rules out 19.2 kbaud. It's also *opto-isolated* current loop. > For obvious reasons, low latency is extremely important and noise is > intolerable. (In typical - and even moderately atypical - applications, of course.) I've never liked MIDI, because it has no way to send a bunch of messages to set a bunch of notes up and then trigger them all at once. You have to simply depend on its being fast enough that the ear can't hear the delay.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Oct 17 20:36:47 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:36:47 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252><01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <200610180043.UAA11655@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <007801c6f255$e09e4ad0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Someone wrote... >> Wired midi is a balanced current loop running at 19.2kbps. > > Not 19.2. It's high but not insanely high, somewhere in the low tens > of kbps I think. However, I'm quite sure it's not one of the usual > serial-port speeds, which rules out 19.2 kbaud. Yeah, I didn't think it was 19.2k.... > It's also *opto-isolated* current loop. That I remembered, from when I built my own 1-midi-in-8-midi-out box to plug into my original creative labs soundblaster. > I've never liked MIDI, because it has no way to send a bunch of > messages to set a bunch of notes up and then trigger them all at once. > You have to simply depend on its being fast enough that the ear can't > hear the delay.... Well, MIDI is really designed for real-time performance data, not what you describe. But what you are talking about isn't a fault of MIDI. It is a fault of the midi instrument you are talking to. I can think of two ways to accomplish what you mention. 1) If by "a bunch of notes" you mean a single chord, this is certainly possible but it's a function of the instrument, not midi. For example, the Oberheim Xk has a chord mode where you play a chord, then hit the chord button which sets the notes in memory (and silences the chord). Then a single keypress repeats that chord (and keys above/below play the chord transposed the corresponding number of halfsteps). I do not know if the Xk supports setting the notes in the chord via SysEx, but THAT is the way you would do it. Set the chord via SysEX and then trigger via midi. 2) If by "a bunch of notes" you mean a sequence of notes and/or chords, sure you can do this, if the midi device has a sequencer built in to it, many synths with keyboard controllers do. They will take an external command via SysEx or midi or several other methods to begin the playback sequence. Blaming Midi for what you describe is somewhat like blaming TCP/IP for communicating arithmetic precision errors the processor made to your telnet session ;) And with that, I will apologize for going so far off topic! Jay West From sethm at loomcom.com Tue Oct 17 20:52:42 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (sethm at loomcom.com) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:52:42 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: "Inkjet Printable" CD/DVD blanks In-Reply-To: <200610172202.k9HM2DU7025635@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200610172202.k9HM2DU7025635@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20061018015242.GB7522@motherbrain.nat.squeep.com> On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 03:02:13PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > My perfered brand of CD/DVD blanks are the Verbatim > DataLifePlus disks. There is no doubt in my mind that these disks have a > good long lifespan (though I do need to see about doing a data refresh on > some). Not an answer to your question, but I'm curious if you've tried MAM-A Gold Archival discs (formerly Mitsui)? They're quite expensive (about $1.60/disc for 100), but I've read good things about them. What do you like about the DataLifePlus? I'm in the market for some good media myself. I have a huge number of CD images I've backed up to hard drives, but I'd like to have good quality archival backups of them on disc as well. -Seth From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 17 21:39:19 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <4CCB4393-E4F8-410B-8C47-0E88B65C89A6@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Oct 17, 6 04:42:03 pm" Message-ID: <200610180239.k9I2dJFb022700@floodgap.com> > ...as are everyone else's. As I just mentioned in another > message, I believe the "dead" comment was meant in relation to > desktop personal computing hardware. Indeed, I bought a PowerMac G4 > shortly after their release, and it had no serial ports...that was at > least six years ago. The Blue & White G3 was the first Mac without any sort of serial port. The beige ones do have them. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" ------------------ From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Oct 17 21:50:39 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 19:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: <200610180043.UAA11655@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <200610180043.UAA11655@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Oct 2006, der Mouse wrote: > >> From vague foggy probably incorrect memory - isn't the baud rate on > >> midi ports/cables unusually high - far higher than typical serial > >> ports? > > > Wired midi is a balanced current loop running at 19.2kbps. > > Not 19.2. It's high but not insanely high, somewhere in the low tens > of kbps I think. However, I'm quite sure it's not one of the usual > serial-port speeds, which rules out 19.2 kbaud. > > It's also *opto-isolated* current loop. I should know better having built homebrewed MIDI gizmos. 38.8 or 32.x aroundabouts. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From staylor at mrynet.com Tue Oct 17 21:53:23 2006 From: staylor at mrynet.com (User Staylor) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:53:23 -0500 Subject: Dilog DU686 docs? Message-ID: <200610180253.k9I2rNZW009748@mrynet.com> Looking for documentation for the Dilog DU-686 Unibus ESDI controller. Anyone have scanned references for it, or possibly just able to forward me jumper and on-board configuration connection and set-up info? TIA, -scott staylor at smedley dot mrynet dot com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 17 23:39:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:39:08 -0700 Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <200610180043.UAA11655@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200610172139080893.83A9D79C@10.0.0.252> On 10/17/2006 at 7:50 PM David Griffith wrote: >I should know better having built homebrewed MIDI gizmos. 38.8 or 32.x >aroundabouts. You're close--31.250 K. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 17 23:41:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:41:01 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: "Inkjet Printable" CD/DVD blanks In-Reply-To: <20061018015242.GB7522@motherbrain.nat.squeep.com> References: <200610172202.k9HM2DU7025635@onyx.spiritone.com> <20061018015242.GB7522@motherbrain.nat.squeep.com> Message-ID: <200610172141010210.83AB8E54@10.0.0.252> On 10/17/2006 at 6:52 PM sethm at loomcom.com wrote: >Not an answer to your question, but I'm curious if you've tried >MAM-A Gold Archival discs (formerly Mitsui)? They're quite expensive >(about $1.60/disc for 100), but I've read good things about them. We use them exclusively. Never a problem. If you shop around a bit you can get them on a 100-count spindle for under $1.00 per. Which is fine with us, because we use PVC jewel cases, not the stupid styrene ones. Chuck From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Oct 17 16:00:09 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:00:09 +0100 Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <45354459.4020809@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The talk about RS-232C reminded me of another simple interface that's been > around for awhile--MIDI. > > I hate MIDI cables--I mean I REALLY hate them. I trip over them, they get > tangled up in my chair and I'm afraid the dog will eat them. > > I've seen a couple of wireless MIDI adaptors, but since they're low-volume > items, they're freakishly expensive. Does anyone have any ideas or > experience with a low-budget wireless MIDI setup? Don't see why you couldn't use licence-exempt 433MHz "keyfob" transmitters and receivers for that. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Oct 17 16:15:25 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:15:25 +0100 Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <453547ED.1020805@gjcp.net> Jay West wrote: > Chuck wrote.... >> I hate MIDI cables--I mean I REALLY hate them. I trip over them, they >> get >> tangled up in my chair and I'm afraid the dog will eat them. > Heard of a MIDI patch-bay? :D I recently bought a USB Midisport 8x8/S. > Love it. At least it helps aggregate where the cables go to. > >> I've seen a couple of wireless MIDI adaptors, but since they're >> low-volume >> items, they're freakishly expensive. Does anyone have any ideas or >> experience with a low-budget wireless MIDI setup? > From vague foggy probably incorrect memory - isn't the baud rate on midi > ports/cables unusually high - far higher than typical serial ports? I > wonder if this is why it's not available commonly? 31250 baud - unusual, but not that high. I once made a midi port out of a normal serial port card by replacing the 14.odd MHz crystal with a 16MHz one. Gordon. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 18 01:35:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 23:35:04 -0700 Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: <453547ED.1020805@gjcp.net> References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453547ED.1020805@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200610172335040568.0013EA30@10.0.0.252> On 10/17/2006 at 10:15 PM Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >31250 baud - unusual, but not that high. I once made a midi port out of >a normal serial port card by replacing the 14.odd MHz crystal with a >16MHz one. Funny thing is when I was working at Durango on North First St. in San Jose, Sequential Circuits was just a couple of tilt-ups up the block. One of the technical writers was very interested in electronic music and kept jabbering about MIDI. It looked like a serial port to me--and I wondered why they had to invent something special running at an odd speed. My memory is really fuzzy--was it the Atari ST that had the built-in-MIDI port that gamers used tas a cheap network for multi-player games? Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Oct 18 01:47:05 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:47:05 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: <200610172335040568.0013EA30@10.0.0.252> References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453547ED.1020805@gjcp.net> <200610172335040568.0013EA30@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4535CDE9.7090208@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > My memory is really fuzzy--was it the Atari ST that had the built-in-MIDI > port that gamers used tas a cheap network for multi-player games? Yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI_Maze -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 18 03:46:17 2006 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 01:46:17 -0700 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <45352CB3.6010602@mdrconsult.com> References: <200610170928290659.810CEC8A@10.0.0.252> <45351555.6000104@neurotica.com> <200610171405.40406.pat@computer-refuge.org> <00f801c6f217$e5bdd230$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45352CB3.6010602@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <4535E9D9.7050906@socal.rr.com> >> RS232 as far as a general purpose consumer interface is dead. Tell that to my new Sony receiver STR DA3000es, full functional control and status available over the rs232 on the back. Thats pretty much the story for all the top end gear designed for integration with a multiroom etc. type system. From bqt at softjar.se Wed Oct 18 04:28:09 2006 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 11:28:09 +0200 Subject: DEC-20, VAX-8600, PDP-11/70 and Update computer club... In-Reply-To: <200610172355.k9HNsSpd086731@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200610172355.k9HNsSpd086731@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4535F3A9.303@softjar.se> Since we've been mentioned, I might as well fill in the blanks and correct the errors. Yes, Update, located in Uppsala, Sweden, have two DEC-2060 machines. Both were operational when we stopped running them. The last we stopped in 1993 or 1994 (don't remember for sure now). I believe we could atleast get one of them back into running shape if we just had space. But at the moment we don't. And this all is in the hands of Uppsala University. The machines are Aida.Update.UU.SE and Carmen.Update.UU.SE. (Not sure if the DNS is being maintaned for these right now.) While we're at it, we also have one VAX-8650, which is operational. We only need to turn the key, and it will boot. Normally we boot NetBSD on it, but we can also boot it into VMS or Ultrix. (Krille.Update.UU.SE) And someone also mentioned DECsystem-570, which is a PDP-11/70 in a corporate cabinet. We have one 11/70 (in the old style) which also is just a turn of a key away from running. (Magica.Update.UU.SE). However, we do not have any KS-10 machines. I believe Stacken (the computer club at the Royal Institute of Technology in Stockholm, Sweden) have both KS-10 and KL-10 machine still around. In the past they also had a KA-10 machine, which might still be around. And I know of another private individual who have a working KI-10 machine in Stockholm. That is actually a tri-CPU KI-10. As for periperials, we have: RP07 (2) RP06 (4) TU77 (2) TU78 (1) And of course we have MSCP disks and HSCs for the VAXen and PDP-11s. (Oh, and we have another 11/70 and 8650 in storage) Some images and pictures (rather incomplete) can be found at: http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/computers.html There should be some somewhere on Updates official pages as well, but I can't find any right now... Johnny From kelly at catcorner.org Wed Oct 18 09:26:05 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:26:05 -0400 Subject: ID an 8" disk format Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B1402@MEOW.catcorner.org> I've started to read some of the disks. Does anyone recognize the following strings? I'm trying to ID the source OS for the following (it is the ROM source for a Panasonic KX-D4911 terminal). Here are some of the strings: IN-III MACRO ASMB. (Z80.ZILOG) VER. 1-01 830131 DATE 60. 1.10 PAGE 1 SYSTEM ANALYZER IN-III VER. 2-2 ISIS IN-IIIDIN6301 DINZ80B This was a pretty standard DS/DD 8" disk that read right in using a catweasel and also with imagedisk. I think it might have been an Intellec-III, but that is based on the repeated appearance of ISIS, and the fact that it is ROM source. Any clues? Thanks, Kelly From dmabry at mich.com Wed Oct 18 10:01:08 2006 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 11:01:08 -0400 Subject: ID an 8" disk format In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B1402@MEOW.catcorner.org> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B1402@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <453641B4.5060600@mich.com> Kelly Leavitt wrote: >I've started to read some of the disks. Does anyone recognize the following strings? I'm trying to ID the source OS for the following (it is the ROM source for a Panasonic KX-D4911 terminal). > >Here are some of the strings: >IN-III MACRO ASMB. (Z80.ZILOG) VER. 1-01 830131 DATE 60. 1.10 PAGE 1 >SYSTEM ANALYZER IN-III VER. 2-2 >ISIS >IN-IIIDIN6301 >DINZ80B > >This was a pretty standard DS/DD 8" disk that read right in using a catweasel and also with imagedisk. I think it might have been an Intellec-III, but that is based on the repeated appearance of ISIS, and the fact that it is ROM source. > >Any clues? > >Thanks, >Kelly > > One thing that I can say with certainty is that Intel never sold a development system that used double-sided 8" disks. They had a double-density format (MMFM, rather than MFM that most used) but they were single-sided. I have several Series II and Series III Intellec systems and none has double-sided disk drives. Another observation in the above strings...the Z80.ZILOG isn't Intel. They never sold anything that supported any Z-80-specific systems. And ISIS, from Intel, was ISIS-II. Intel would not have left off the "-II" from their identifiers. Now, for my guess. This looks like possibly something from a competitor of Intel, or possibly one of the development systems from Zilog or National. It is possible they used an ISIS-compatible file format, or object module format. That may be what the "ISIS" is all about in that string. But if you are certain about the DS/DD, then it isn't Intel. SS/DD could be. Dave From akbari1ir at yahoo.com Wed Oct 18 08:05:32 2006 From: akbari1ir at yahoo.com (amir akbari) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 06:05:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Help about am2901 Message-ID: <20061018130533.44688.qmail@web37205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Mr I am working on a project and I need gate level schematic or VHDL code of any one 4bit (or a simple)processor like AM2901 . Description by details will be useful . Do you have any ideas where I can find it? Respectfully, Amir __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Oct 18 11:27:17 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:27:17 -0600 Subject: Help about am2901 In-Reply-To: <20061018130533.44688.qmail@web37205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20061018130533.44688.qmail@web37205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <453655E5.6070904@e-bbes.com> amir akbari wrote: > Dear Mr > > I am working on a project and I need gate level > schematic or VHDL code of any one 4bit (or a > simple)processor like AM2901 . > > Description by details will be useful . > > Do you have any ideas where I can find it? Did you try google and "am2901 vhdl" ? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around Probably not ;-) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Oct 18 11:27:34 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 10:27:34 -0600 Subject: Help about am2901 In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 18 Oct 2006 06:05:32 -0700. <20061018130533.44688.qmail@web37205.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <20061018130533.44688.qmail at web37205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, amir akbari writes: > I am working on a project and I need gate level > schematic or VHDL code of any one 4bit (or a > simple)processor like AM2901 . > > Description by details will be useful . > > Do you have any ideas where I can find it? "Bit-Slice Microprocessor Design" by Mick and Brick has block diagrams and data sheets for the entire 29xx bit-slice family along with lots of discussion about how to hook them all up to make your own processor. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Oct 18 12:42:52 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:42:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAX 8600 (was Re: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52845.82.152.112.73.1161193372.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Tue, October 17, 2006 10:50 pm, Ethan Dicks said: > On 10/18/06, Witchy wrote: >> On Tue, October 17, 2006 11:25 pm, Jules Richardson said: >> > >> > There's always the DECSystem 570 and the VAX 8600 to get your teeth >> into - >> >> *looks for picture of VAX8600, fails* > > Google Image search is your friend... > > http://hampage.hu/vax/e_1984.html I meant the 8600 that's in storage for us at Bletchley Park :) http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/VAX%208600.JPG Running state is currently unknown since the building it's in has no power and there's little chance of getting 3-phase anywhere on site! I've audited the boxen and she seems to be complete and apparently worked when decommissioned a year or two ago.... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Oct 18 12:28:08 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:28:08 -0400 Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200610181328.08432.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 17 October 2006 04:34 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The talk about RS-232C reminded me of another simple interface that's been > around for awhile--MIDI. > > I hate MIDI cables--I mean I REALLY hate them. I trip over them, they get > tangled up in my chair and I'm afraid the dog will eat them. > > I've seen a couple of wireless MIDI adaptors, but since they're low-volume > items, they're freakishly expensive. Does anyone have any ideas or > experience with a low-budget wireless MIDI setup? I haven't seen anything out there, but since the interface is to optical-type parts anyhow, would it be reasonable to use IR LEDs and such like you'd use for a remote control? I guess directionality and distance would be the determining factors there. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, dealiest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of spac, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Oct 18 12:34:41 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:34:41 -0400 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <45355692.8010204@yahoo.co.uk> References: <00f801c6f217$e5bdd230$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45355692.8010204@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200610181334.42229.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 17 October 2006 06:17 pm, Jules Richardson wrote: > > RS232 as far as a general purpose consumer interface is dead. > > In a way, I suppose it doesn't fit for a lot of devices beyond things like > terminals and modems and simple, low-speed stuff like UPS status/control. > Most consumer devices are just too bandwidth-hungry for serial - but that's > what parallel ports and SCSI were for; we didn't *need* yet another > interface standard... Unless you were the mfr. and wanted a way cheaper interface connector maybe? > Makes me wonder how well SCSI would have fared had it been hot-pluggable > from the start, as that seems to be the main benefit of USB (even if the > Microsoft guys can't seem to get the software side of it right!) I've noticed that, where software that seems to want to deal with SCSI stuff (in my case a flatbed scanner hooked to one machine and a burner hooked to another) seems to want those devices hooked up and powered when they boot, though I can do things like `cdrecord -scanbus` and get the software to notice what's out there. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, dealiest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of spac, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Oct 18 12:31:45 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:31:45 -0400 Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200610181331.46285.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 17 October 2006 05:10 pm, Jay West wrote: > Chuck wrote.... > > > I hate MIDI cables--I mean I REALLY hate them. I trip over them, they > > get tangled up in my chair and I'm afraid the dog will eat them. > > Heard of a MIDI patch-bay? :D I recently bought a USB Midisport 8x8/S. Love > it. At least it helps aggregate where the cables go to. I've seen some homebrew stuff like that out there on the web. > > I've seen a couple of wireless MIDI adaptors, but since they're > > low-volume items, they're freakishly expensive. Does anyone have any > > ideas or experience with a low-budget wireless MIDI setup? > >From vague foggy probably incorrect memory - isn't the baud rate on midi > > ports/cables unusually high - far higher than typical serial ports? I > wonder if this is why it's not available commonly? If I'm remembering right it's 31.5K, which is not a standard serial rate at all. Which means dedicated hardware, though it doesn't strike me as being all that expensive hardware. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, dealiest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of spac, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Oct 18 12:45:08 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:45:08 -0400 Subject: Classic ports missing on modern machines (was Re: PDT-11/150 down ) In-Reply-To: <200610172210.k9HMAAeR025741@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200610172210.k9HMAAeR025741@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200610181345.09057.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 17 October 2006 06:10 pm, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Hmmm, this got me to thinking, and a quick check shows the local "PC Chop > Shop" I buy parts from does sell Serial and Parallel PCI adapters. ?The > only thing is, they're one port to a card. ?How hard would it be to put > both ports on one card! Not hard at all. They probably just don't have any demand for that stuff, and could maybe order it in for you. I know I've seen boards that had more than one parallel port on them. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, dealiest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of spac, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 18 13:02:10 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 12:02:10 -0600 Subject: Help about am2901 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45366C22.7060601@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: >>Do you have any ideas where I can find it? > "Bit-Slice Microprocessor Design" by Mick and Brick has block diagrams > and data sheets for the entire 29xx bit-slice family along with lots > of discussion about how to hook them all up to make your own processor. Google will find you some VHDL models. Just what will compile them is another story. :) Look under AMD at bitsavers for orginal documentation I think is the best starting point. http://www.bitsavers.org From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Oct 18 12:40:24 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:40:24 -0400 Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200610181340.24556.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 17 October 2006 05:44 pm, David Griffith wrote: > Wired midi is a balanced current loop running at 19.2kbps. Nope. It runs at 31.5K, if I'm remembering right, or pretty close to that. (I worked on musical instrument stuff from around 1975 until we closed our shop up in 1992, and attended several seminars on this stuff including two trips out to SoCal for Yamaha PACE training.) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, dealiest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of spac, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Oct 18 12:42:38 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:42:38 -0400 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <200610171453280266.8236721D@10.0.0.252> References: <45355692.8010204@yahoo.co.uk> <200610171453280266.8236721D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200610181342.38326.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 17 October 2006 05:53 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/17/2006 at 10:17 PM Jules Richardson wrote: > >OK, so you can redirect stuff under DOS (or another OS) once booted, but > >that still means that on typical PC machines you get no feedback on the > >boot process until the OS has control... > > Of course, even the original 5150 had a serial port--most people just tend > not to think of it as such. Namely, the keyboard interface. When the AT > came along, it was fully bidirectional. Interesting thought. I have some XT-class hardware around still, but it's been so long since I've messed with any of that I can't remember -- do you _have to_ have video or other cards in there to get past POST? > >Makes me wonder how well SCSI would have fared had it been hot-pluggable > >from the start, as that seems to be the main benefit of USB (even if the > >Microsoft guys can't seem to get the software side of it right!) > > You're forgetting how much voodoo factor there was to SCSI. I've never personally found SCSI to be all that hard to deal with. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, dealiest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of spac, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 18 13:02:16 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 11:02:16 -0700 Subject: Zebra_Design.pdf Message-ID: >Did anyone happen to download "Zebra_Design.pdf" "An Outline of the >Functional Design of the Stantec Zebra Computer" I've just made scans available on http://bitsavers.org/pdf/stantec in the past few days I'm trying to locate a copy of the document which describes the Algol compiler for the Zebra. The copy that was recently donated to CHM was has severe termite damage. From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Oct 18 12:56:14 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:56:14 -0400 Subject: Info needed on some 1980s-era Intel parts In-Reply-To: <200610171632010945.8290ADD0@10.0.0.252> References: <200610171632010945.8290ADD0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200610181356.15022.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 17 October 2006 07:32 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you're not dealing with very high-speed devices, (e.g. voltmeters, etc.) > and only talking to a single device, a simple bidirectional printer port > can provide most of the functionality of GPIB/HPIB. ?Sometime in the > mid-80's, I released a bit of code (may still be in SIMTEL) for a DOS TSR > to drive an HP Plotter through the printer port. ? > > It wasn't an original idea--I saw the printer port on the Victor 9000 used > to do the same thing. ?Victor would even sell you a cable for that purpose. And all of the Osbornes I've ever encountered called theirs a "Printer/IEEE" port... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, dealiest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of spac, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Oct 18 13:13:47 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: <200610181331.46285.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <200610181331.46285.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200610181816.OAA00316@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [I]sn't the baud rate on midi ports/cables unusually high - far >> higher than typical serial ports? > If I'm remembering right it's 31.5K, which is not a standard serial > rate at all. Which means dedicated hardware, though it doesn't > strike me as being all that expensive hardware. I'm not sure of the 31.5, but I'm quite sure it's not a "standard" serial rate. Yes, it means specialized hardware, but not very; practically any commodity serial chip can do it if you feed a suitable clock to the baud-rate generator. NeXTen, at least the ones I've messed with, have two clocks feeding their serial chips (with software able to select which one is used) so they can do MIDI speeds and stock serial speeds out the same port (not, of course, at the same time!). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Oct 18 13:45:59 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:45:59 -0500 Subject: Experience with cartridge archival? Message-ID: <45367667.4000607@oldskool.org> A mutual acquaintance of mine is trying to write a thesis and needs a little help. He writes: "The project that I am working on is for my Masters in Library Information Science degree with a focus on Archiving. For my paper I have to write a 10 to 12 page paper on a subject that involves the preservation of something that has archival significance. So I decided to do it on video games and what steps are being taken to preserve them on the media that they were originally written on such as Atari and Nintendo cartridges some of which are degrading significantly and no longer work on the game systems they were designed for." If anyone has any help or leads for him, or any experience archiving ROMs/cartridges that may degrade over time and how to properly preserve them, please drop him a line at "andrew.pacilli at simmons.edu". Your input can shape an archivist's future :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Oct 18 13:59:02 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Experience with cartridge archival? In-Reply-To: <45367667.4000607@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20061018185902.E9D195822F@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Jim Leonard > > A mutual acquaintance of mine is trying to write a thesis and needs a > little help. He writes: > > "The project that I am working on is for my Masters in Library > Information Science degree with a focus on Archiving. For my paper I > have to write a 10 to 12 page paper on a subject that involves the > preservation of something that has archival significance. So I decided > to do it on video games and what steps are being taken to preserve them > on the media that they were originally written on such as Atari and > Nintendo cartridges some of which are degrading significantly and no > longer work on the game systems they were designed for." > > If anyone has any help or leads for him, or any experience archiving > ROMs/cartridges that may degrade over time and how to properly preserve > them, please drop him a line at "andrew.pacilli at simmons.edu". Your > input can shape an archivist's future :-) For Atari 2600, can you not just take a .bin downloaded from AtariAge and burn it to a suitable EPROM that is then installed on a suitable cartridge PCB? AtariAge even sells everything you need to make your own cartridges. As for Nintendo, I believe they will be releasing their back catalog for play on their new console, Wii. Cheers, Bryan P.S. All the 2600 carts I have are still working the last time I played them.. It is the label that seems to be going first. From ray at arachelian.com Wed Oct 18 14:15:27 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:15:27 -0400 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <200610181334.42229.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <00f801c6f217$e5bdd230$6700a8c0@BILLING> <45355692.8010204@yahoo.co.uk> <200610181334.42229.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <45367D4F.6080709@arachelian.com> Yeah, basically that's what firewire is all about. Serial SCSI pretty much. With a much cheaper connector too. :-) And no more SCSI ID's or terminators to fumble with. Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Unless you were the mfr. and wanted a way cheaper interface connector maybe? > > >> Makes me wonder how well SCSI would have fared had it been hot-pluggable >> from the start, as that seems to be the main benefit of USB (even if the >> Microsoft guys can't seem to get the software side of it right!) >> > > I've noticed that, where software that seems to want to deal with SCSI stuff > (in my case a flatbed scanner hooked to one machine and a burner hooked to > another) seems to want those devices hooked up and powered when they boot, > though I can do things like `cdrecord -scanbus` and get the software to > notice what's out there. > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 18 14:38:41 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:38:41 -0500 Subject: new part-faulty RAM chips? Message-ID: <453682C1.7040006@yahoo.co.uk> Does anyone know if the Sinclair Spectrum ever made use of RAM chips that were known to be part-faulty as-new? This was just asked over on another mailing list... I recall discussions about such chips in the past on here, where manufacturers would sell 'faulty' RAM to vendors at lower cost where only half of the address map could store data reliably. However, I'm sure that was late 70s or so, not the early 80s when the Spectrum existed; by then I would have thought that the manufacturers would have had the reliability issues sorted out and would simply dump faulty stock? Anyone able to confirm? cheers Jules -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 18 14:54:11 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 14:54:11 -0500 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <200610181342.38326.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <45355692.8010204@yahoo.co.uk> <200610171453280266.8236721D@10.0.0.252> <200610181342.38326.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <45368663.2010107@yahoo.co.uk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> Of course, even the original 5150 had a serial port--most people just tend >> not to think of it as such. Namely, the keyboard interface. When the AT >> came along, it was fully bidirectional. > > Interesting thought. I have some XT-class hardware around still, but it's > been so long since I've messed with any of that I can't remember -- do you > _have to_ have video or other cards in there to get past POST? I'm pretty sure that it's been a fundamental PC feature from day 1, annoyingly. Presumably IBM took the view that serial consoles were for minis and mainframes, and that a PC was a desktop with a screen and so should always have a video board (even if it was text-only) [wonder what the first application that treated a PC as a server was? Quite possibly some form of BBS software, but it'd be interesting to know] >>> Makes me wonder how well SCSI would have fared had it been hot-pluggable >> >from the start, as that seems to be the main benefit of USB (even if the >>> Microsoft guys can't seem to get the software side of it right!) >> You're forgetting how much voodoo factor there was to SCSI. > > I've never personally found SCSI to be all that hard to deal with. Nor me. The trick for me was always to buy good-quality cables and terminators, and to adhere to maximum cable lengths. I've had far more trouble getting pairs of IDE devices playing well together than I've ever had getting SCSI stuff working. cheers J. -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 18 15:07:39 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:07:39 -0700 Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: <200610181331.46285.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <200610181331.46285.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200610181307390273.02FBDA42@10.0.0.252> On 10/18/2006 at 1:31 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >If I'm remembering right it's 31.5K, which is not a standard serial rate >at all. Which means dedicated hardware, though it doesn't strike me as >being all that expensive hardware. 31.25K, close enough. What I really like is the idea of is MIDI-over-ethernet--that would let me use a conventional wireless hookup or a simple ethernet cable. I found a Dutch outfit selling a general-purpose ethernet box with various modules, but no prices or availability: http://kissbox.nl Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 18 15:36:19 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:36:19 +1300 Subject: Odd 8-bit ISA CD-ROM interface? Message-ID: I have this board here, marked "Reveal / Part No. 14-004-008" with an FCC ID if BEJGCD-R420B. It is an 8-bit ISA card with a few jumpers (1-4 and 1-9) and a single 40-pin IDC connector. >From a bit of googling, it seems to be an ancient CD-ROM interface. That would be interesting as it's 8-bit and AFAIK, ATAPI devices are 16-bit only. There's not much on the card - a couple of buffers ('244, '245), an address comparator ('688), and a wee bit of logic ('32 x 2, '08, '00)... nothing to, say, latch two 8-bit writes into a 16-bit register. Anyone recognize this beast? Is it useful in anything besides a DOS/Win3.1 box? -ethan From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Oct 18 12:08:35 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:08:35 +0100 Subject: Help about am2901 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45365F93.1090105@gjcp.net> Richard wrote: > In article <20061018130533.44688.qmail at web37205.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, > amir akbari writes: > >> I am working on a project and I need gate level >> schematic or VHDL code of any one 4bit (or a >> simple)processor like AM2901 . >> >> Description by details will be useful . >> >> Do you have any ideas where I can find it? > > "Bit-Slice Microprocessor Design" by Mick and Brick has block diagrams > and data sheets for the entire 29xx bit-slice family along with lots > of discussion about how to hook them all up to make your own processor. Co-incidentally I picked up a copy of that recently from a friend of mine who was having a clearout. Gordon. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 18 15:48:21 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 16:48:21 -0400 Subject: VAX 8600 (was Re: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale) In-Reply-To: <52845.82.152.112.73.1161193372.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <52845.82.152.112.73.1161193372.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <3BD0E279-1D48-4155-AC0E-6F9425472179@neurotica.com> On Oct 18, 2006, at 1:42 PM, Witchy wrote: > I meant the 8600 that's in storage for us at Bletchley Park :) > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/VAX%208600.JPG > > Running state is currently unknown since the building it's in has > no power > and there's little chance of getting 3-phase anywhere on site! I've > audited the boxen and she seems to be complete and apparently > worked when > decommissioned a year or two ago.... OMG...That is a beautiful system!! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 18 15:59:22 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:59:22 -0700 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <45368663.2010107@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45355692.8010204@yahoo.co.uk> <200610171453280266.8236721D@10.0.0.252> <200610181342.38326.rtellason@verizon.net> <45368663.2010107@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200610181359220115.032B32BB@10.0.0.252> On 10/18/2006 at 2:54 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >> I've never personally found SCSI to be all that hard to deal with. > >Nor me. The trick for me was always to buy good-quality cables and >terminators, and to adhere to maximum cable lengths. I've had far more >trouble >getting pairs of IDE devices playing well together than I've ever had >getting SCSI stuff working. My perception is perhaps colored by my involvement with the field and, in particular, SCSI tape drives. It never failed that we'd get at least one support call a week saying something like "I got tape drive A, SCSI adapter B and system C and it doesn't work." Where A B and C changed very frequently. In particular, early SCSI was colored with devices that *almost* behaved like the spec, but did something a bit peculiar, leading to grief. Cheers, Chuck From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Oct 18 16:24:02 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 16:24:02 -0500 Subject: Pertec / 9 track cable question Message-ID: <001501c6f2fb$bf496850$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Hi all, I've had a malfuntioning magtape setup on my 11/23+ for some time and I'm wondering, is it the card, cabling, or drive? here's what I've got: Overland OD3201 magtape drive (works fine when the parallel port connection is used when connected to a PC) Dilog DQ132 pertec tape controller Two straight-through ribbon cables, 50 pin IDC on one end, 50 pin cardedge on the other. J1 on card is cabled to P1 on drive. J2 on card is cabled to P2 on drive. When I try to perform an operation on the tape drive, it times out The drive does spin a bit first. Rewind operations work correctly. It seems to do this no matter how I have the card configured. Are these cables really supposed to be straight through, or what am I missing? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks! Julian From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Oct 18 16:28:59 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 22:28:59 +0100 Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <45368663.2010107@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <002901c6f2fc$6e2f93d0$6f04010a@uatempname> Jules Richardson wrote: >Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> I've never personally found SCSI to be all that hard to deal with. > >Nor me. The trick for me was always to buy good-quality cables and >terminators, and to adhere to maximum cable lengths. I've had far more trouble >getting pairs of IDE devices playing well together than I've ever had getting >SCSI stuff working. The early problems (with SCSI-1) were down to differing interpretations of the spec (what was mandatory, what was not etc.) Plus the usual amount of works-OK-until-stressed stuff. If you were just doing PC stuff and were using disks expected to be sold into that environment you were probably OK. A slow ISA bus and a largely single-tasking environment (under DOS) would have prevented you seeing the various issues that drives had when hit hard. Trying anything other than a disk (a tape, for example) on anything other than the platform for which it was intended was "fun". Antonio From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 18 16:33:11 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 16:33:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Experience with cartridge archival? Message-ID: <200610182133.k9ILXBuj085508@keith.ezwind.net> --- Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Jim Leonar d > > > > A mutual acquaintance of mine is trying to write a > thesis and needs a > > little help. He writes: > > > > "The project that I am working on is for my > Masters in Library > > Information Science degree with a focus on > Archiving. For my paper I > > have to write a 10 to 12 page paper on a subject > that involves the > > preservation of something that has archival > significance. So I decided > > to do it on video games and what steps are being > taken to preserve them > > on the media that they were originally written o n > such as Atari and > > Nintendo cartridges some of which are degrading > significantly and no > > longer work on the game systems they were design ed > for." > > > > If anyone has any help or leads for him, or any > experience archiving > > ROMs/cartridges that may degrade over time and h ow > to properly preserve > > them, please drop him a line at > "andrew.pacilli at simmons.edu". Your > > input can shape an archivist's future :-) > > For Atari 2600, can you not just take a .bin > downloaded from AtariAge > and burn it to a suitable EPROM that is then > installed on a suitable > cartridge PCB? AtariAge even sells everything you > need to make your > own cartridges. As for Nintendo, I believe they > will be releasing > their back catalog for play on their new console, > Wii. > > Cheers, > > Bryan > Thats not strictly true. Nintendo are releasing *their* games for their old machines, such as the SNES (aka Super Famicom in Japan), for play on the Wii (pronounced "we" - it apparently means "all" in Japanese) However, there are about 2500 (perhaps more?) SNES games of which only 100 or so are by Nintendo. Plus, what about the games by companies that no longer exist, such as Psygnosis (bought by Sony around 1999), Bitmap Brothers (ok, still around but appear to be dead), Probe (dead), US Gold and their subsidiary Kixx (dead) and many others. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 18 16:36:36 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 16:36:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Experience with cartridge archival? Message-ID: <200610182136.k9ILaa1V085596@keith.ezwind.net> Sorry, forgot something (see bottom of email) --- Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Jim Leonar d > > > > A mutual acquaintance of mine is trying to write a > thesis and needs a > > little help. He writes: > > > > "The project that I am working on is for my > Masters in Library > > Information Science degree with a focus on > Archiving. For my paper I > > have to write a 10 to 12 page paper on a subject > that involves the > > preservation of something that has archival > significance. So I decided > > to do it on video games and what steps are being > taken to preserve them > > on the media that they were originally written o n > such as Atari and > > Nintendo cartridges some of which are degrading > significantly and no > > longer work on the game systems they were design ed > for." > > > > If anyone has any help or leads for him, or any > experience archiving > > ROMs/cartridges that may degrade over time and h ow > to properly preserve > > them, please drop him a line at > "andrew.pacilli at simmons.edu". Your > > input can shape an archivist's future :-) > > For Atari 2600, can you not just take a .bin > downloaded from AtariAge > and burn it to a suitable EPROM that is then > installed on a suitable > cartridge PCB? AtariAge even sells everything you > need to make your > own cartridges. As for Nintendo, I believe they > will be releasing > their back catalog for play on their new console, > Wii. > > Cheers, > > Bryan > Thats not strictly true. Nintendo are releasing *their* games for their old machines, such as the SNES (aka Super Famicom in Japan), for play on the Wii (pronounced "we" - it apparently means "all" in Japanese) However, there are about 2500 (perhaps more?) SNES games of which only 100 or so are by Nintendo. Plus, what about the games by companies that no longer exist, such as Psygnosis (bought by Sony around 1999), Bitmap Brothers (ok, still around but appear to be dead), Probe (dead), US Gold and their subsidiary Kixx (dead) and many others. *** forgotten bit follows *** I have found that some of my SNES and Megadrive games (on cartridges) sometimes fail to run the first time after ages (eg. a few years) of not being used. With the exception of one or two, they have all worked on the 2nd or 3rd attempts. I'm not sure why that is, but aslong as they work :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 18 16:47:15 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 16:47:15 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: <200610172335040568.0013EA30@10.0.0.252> References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453547ED.1020805@gjcp.net> <200610172335040568.0013EA30@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20061018164139.04fd9010@mail> At 01:35 AM 10/18/2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >My memory is really fuzzy--was it the Atari ST that had the built-in-MIDI >port that gamers used tas a cheap network for multi-player games? Yes, the Atari had it built-in. The Amiga also handled MIDI speeds and only needed minor adaption. The very first piece of hardware I had for my Amiga was a MIDI dongle from Amiga Corp. circa '85 that plugged into the serial port. It was a handmade, bare, uncased prototype they sent me as a developer interested in making MIDI software. At the time I was working for a computer music software company that had made one of the first MIDI editing packages for DOS PCs. I think I still have a couple Roland MIDI adapters for the PC from that time period. Maybe a rare Roland prototype for the C-64, too. - John From hachti at hachti.de Wed Oct 18 17:00:52 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 00:00:52 +0200 Subject: Al's Canadian buy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4536A414.20209@hachti.de> Hi Al, > There is nothing new to report. It is still in Canada. I understand. Thanks for the info. It was good to have it bought... Hope you get it home/to CHM without any greater trouble.... Next month I will visit Adrian Wise in UK who has a working H316 and a working DDP-516 at home. Perhaps we should make a welcome-software-compilation with some nice tests and other stuff for your machine :-) You can nearly be sure that it is in perfectly working condition - except the contacts and perhaps the PSU. The computers seem to be very robust. Regards, Philipp :-) From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 18 17:35:10 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:35:10 -0500 (CDT) Subject: 3.5" disk storage Message-ID: <200610182235.k9IMZAI1087382@keith.ezwind.net> Hi, I'm starting to get a rather large collection of Amiga and PC disks. What is better for storage and easy access, small cardboard boxes (W:5" D:4" H:5") that I can get for nothing from work or the proper plastic case things that can hold 50 or 100 disks? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From hachti at hachti.de Wed Oct 18 17:40:34 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 00:40:34 +0200 Subject: Honeywell 7-track tape drive - who has EVER seen this? Message-ID: <4536AD62.80604@hachti.de> Hi folks, please take a look at this picture: http://h316.hachti.de?gallery/tape_drive2/dscn1704_1024.jpg More can be found here: http://h316.hachti.de?gallery/tape_drive/ http://h316.hachti.de?gallery/tape_drive2/ Who has ever seen/used/heard about/repaired this kind (similar is ok, too!) of tape drive? Doesn't matter if in a museum, private collection, basement, scrapyard, heaven or hell. Doesn't matter if long time ago or today - let me know! Please contact me if you have seen this kind of machine before. I am looking for EVERY trace of these machines! Every hint is appreciated. Also things like "I have seen such a unit 25 years ago in a factory for women's underwear which is closed since 15 years" are important. I hope to find still some traces. These machines were very heavy so there's a real chance that there are still some of them standing around forgotten. That's a Honeywell 4210 7-track tape drive. Once I've ruined three friends' backs with helping me to get it into my first floor collection room. And now I've got the problem that most of the electronics are missing. I don't have a solution yet. I don't know where to start. And I have no spares. But some documentation. I know only one thing: I want to and will bring it back to work! But it would be better and easier to find spare cards or a second unit. It would also be great to get some pieces (easily exchangeable parts) for some limited time - just to check the rest. So please try to remember and contact me. And yes, I have asked this before. Will do that again and again from time to time. Any luck with that could save me weeks of work (which I actually cannot afford at the moment). Thanks a lot! Best wishes, Philipp :-) -- You have to reboot your computer after powerfail? Haha! http://316.hachti.de From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 18 18:01:09 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:01:09 -0600 Subject: Help about am2901 In-Reply-To: <45365F93.1090105@gjcp.net> References: <45365F93.1090105@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4536B235.2070305@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> "Bit-Slice Microprocessor Design" by Mick and Brick has block diagrams >> and data sheets for the entire 29xx bit-slice family along with lots >> of discussion about how to hook them all up to make your own processor. > > > Co-incidentally I picked up a copy of that recently from a friend of > mine who was having a clearout. Does he have any more for sale? > Gordon. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Oct 18 17:59:51 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 23:59:51 +0100 Subject: VAX 8600 (was Re: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale) In-Reply-To: <3BD0E279-1D48-4155-AC0E-6F9425472179@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 18/10/06 21:48, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On Oct 18, 2006, at 1:42 PM, Witchy wrote: >> I meant the 8600 that's in storage for us at Bletchley Park :) >> >> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/VAX%208600.JPG >> >> Running state is currently unknown since the building it's in has >> no power >> and there's little chance of getting 3-phase anywhere on site! I've >> audited the boxen and she seems to be complete and apparently >> worked when >> decommissioned a year or two ago.... > > OMG...That is a beautiful system!! It is, and thanks to the people that are storing it for us (it's not actually at Bletchley) it's still free of pigeon crap and other airborne nasties that affect paintwork :) I'll dig out the full pix of the system but beware that they're huge because I wanted to make sure all the components were in place..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 18 18:37:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 16:37:07 -0700 Subject: Odd 8-bit ISA CD-ROM interface? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200610181637070443.03BB9E5F@10.0.0.252> On 10/19/2006 at 9:36 AM Ethan Dicks wrote: >I have this board here, marked "Reveal / Part No. 14-004-008" with an >FCC ID if BEJGCD-R420B. It is an 8-bit ISA card with a few jumpers >(1-4 and 1-9) and a single 40-pin IDC connector. >Anyone recognize this beast? Is it useful in anything besides a >DOS/Win3.1 box? Ethan, there were 8 bit cards for early CD-ROM drives. These were "IDE-like" and not necessarily ATAPI. I've got a document somewhere that details all of the nonsense--but you'll need an early "IDE" CD-ROM drive and driver software to use this thing. Cheers, Chuck From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Oct 18 19:01:06 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Help about am2901 In-Reply-To: <4536B235.2070305@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20061019000106.27527.qmail@web81314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> www.abebooks.com currently lists six copies of Mick and Brick, four of them for under $20. --Bill From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Oct 18 19:05:46 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:05:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Experience with cartridge archival? In-Reply-To: <20061018185902.E9D195822F@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20061018185902.E9D195822F@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Oct 2006, Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Jim Leonard > > > If anyone has any help or leads for him, or any experience archiving > > ROMs/cartridges that may degrade over time and how to properly > > preserve them, please drop him a line at "andrew.pacilli at simmons.edu". > > Your input can shape an archivist's future :-) > > For Atari 2600, can you not just take a .bin downloaded from AtariAge > and burn it to a suitable EPROM that is then installed on a suitable > cartridge PCB? You can in many cases, though sometimes an inverter like a 7404 is needed in addition to the EPROM. I reprogrammed my own 2600 Q-Bert cartridge that had its EPROM become unreliable from a .bin file and it still works fine. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Oct 18 19:10:32 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:10:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Odd 8-bit ISA CD-ROM interface? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Oct 2006, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have this board here, marked "Reveal / Part No. 14-004-008" with an > FCC ID if BEJGCD-R420B. It is an 8-bit ISA card with a few jumpers (1-4 > and 1-9) and a single 40-pin IDC connector. > > From a bit of googling, it seems to be an ancient CD-ROM interface. That > would be interesting as it's 8-bit and AFAIK, ATAPI devices are 16-bit > only. There's not much on the card - a couple of buffers ('244, '245), > an address comparator ('688), and a wee bit of logic ('32 x 2, '08, > '00)... nothing to, say, latch two 8-bit writes into a 16-bit register. > > Anyone recognize this beast? Is it useful in anything besides a > DOS/Win3.1 box? It should be supported under Linux or *BSD. I have one of these that I used to use under Linux, so I know they used to be supported anyway. The cdrom drive isn't ATAPI, but was a very common interface before ATA cdrom drives became available. If memory serves, there were 3 non-ATAPI interfaces that were fairly common. Some of the early Soundblaster cards that supported an ATAPI drive also had the other 3 connectors on them. -Toth From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Oct 18 19:14:56 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mick and Brick In-Reply-To: <4536B235.2070305@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20061019001456.34439.qmail@web81314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There are even more copies listed on www.bookfinder.com. Copies for all -- come and get 'em while they last! --Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 18 18:25:53 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 00:25:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Info needed on some 1980s-era Intel parts In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 18, 6 12:29:30 pm Message-ID: > > If you're really curious, I have schematics for the first > > HPIB interface -- the one that goes in the HP9830. That used no special > > ICs at all, just TTL and discretes (I have an idea the output drivers > > were discrete transistors). > > I'm always interested in learning about new GPIB implemenations. Go over to http://www.hpmuseum.net/ . Follow the 'documentation' link then search for 59405 (that's the model number of the interface). IIRC, there are 2 documantes for that, one is a set of unofficial hand-drawn schematics, the other is the operating/service manual, inclduing an official schematic. It's an odd design. Basically, it can transfer bytes between the HP9830's I/O bus and the HPIB, with the ATN line held active if you want it. There is no direct way to set talker or listenr status of the interface, instead. it detects Talk Address and Listen Address commands on the bus. To make the interface a talker, it can send a byte with ATN active which happens to be a Talk Address command with the right address. The interface hardware recognises that and sets talk mode. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 18 18:33:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 00:33:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Info needed on some 1980s-era Intel parts In-Reply-To: <200610171632010945.8290ADD0@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 17, 6 04:32:01 pm Message-ID: > If you're not dealing with very high-speed devices, (e.g. voltmeters, etc.) > and only talking to a single device, a simple bidirectional printer port > can provide most of the functionality of GPIB/HPIB. Sometime in the > mid-80's, I released a bit of code (may still be in SIMTEL) for a DOS TSR > to drive an HP Plotter through the printer port. If not, I appear to have a copy floating around here. I've never used it, though. > > It wasn't an original idea--I saw the printer port on the Victor 9000 used > to do the same thing. Victor would even sell you a cable for that purpose. The printer port on the Sirius (==Vistor 9000) was a GPIB port with a strange pinout and connector. According to the schematics, it uses a 75160 to drive the data lines and a 75161 to drive the handshake lines (for example, pin 1, which would be the strobe line on a Centronics printer is driven by the DAV buffer in the 75161). The whole thing was driven in software (there's a 6522, not suprisingly, behind it :-)). The normal device drives talk to the Centronics printer, for which you use a striaght-through cable. This is the first I've heard of ther being a GPIB cable (and presumably driver software), though. Talking of the Sirius, was the user port ever used for anything. That's a 50 pin header on the mainboard carrying power and ground, light pen input, and all the port lines of a 6522. Well, one of them is also used as the clock for the sound system, but the rest are totally uncommitted. And was the sound input (the little header on the mainboard) ever used? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 18 19:07:51 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 01:07:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDT-11/150 down In-Reply-To: <200610181342.38326.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Oct 18, 6 01:42:38 pm Message-ID: > > > > Of course, even the original 5150 had a serial port--most people just tend > > not to think of it as such. Namely, the keyboard interface. When the AT > > came along, it was fully bidirectional. > > Interesting thought. I have some XT-class hardware around still, but it's And a 5150 or 5160 (not sure about the later machines) can _boot_ from the keyboard connector. If it gets a particular byte back at power-on, it assumes there's a diagnostic tester connected. The next 2 words are the number of bytes (? maybe words) to load, then it reads in the data and stores it in memory starting at a known address. It then jumps to the first byte loaded. All this is documented in the BIOS source listings and AFAIK nowhere else. -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 18 19:50:07 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: <200610181331.46285.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252> <01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> <200610181331.46285.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Oct 2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > If I'm remembering right it's 31.5K, which is not a standard serial rate at > all. Which means dedicated hardware, though it doesn't strike me as being > all that expensive hardware. If by "dedicated hardware", you mean an inexpensive microcontroller, then yes. Please take a look at http://www.midibox.org/. Documented there are all sorts of fun things one can do with MIDI and microcontrollers. MIDI can be used as a quick, easy, and cheap way to wire up and control nearly anything, not just synthesizers. The infamous beer advert from last December with the house lights synced with music is easily doable with midibox modules. Note: My only associations with midibox.org are that I've built the stuff described and enjoy it. Don't discount me because I misremembered midi's speed. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From kelly at catcorner.org Wed Oct 18 19:53:46 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:53:46 -0400 Subject: ID an 8" disk format (SOPHIA SYSTEMS???) Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30361B9@MEOW.catcorner.org> > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dave Mabry > > Kelly Leavitt wrote: > > >Here are some of the strings: > >IN-III MACRO ASMB. (Z80.ZILOG) VER. 1-01 830131 DATE 60. > 1.10 PAGE 1 > >SYSTEM ANALYZER IN-III VER. 2-2 > >ISIS > >IN-IIIDIN6301 > >DINZ80B > > > >This was a pretty standard DS/DD 8" disk that read right in > using a catweasel and also with imagedisk. I think it might > have been an Intellec-III, but that is based on the repeated > appearance of ISIS, and the fact that it is ROM source. > > > One thing that I can say with certainty is that Intel never sold a > development system that used double-sided 8" disks. They had a > double-density format (MMFM, rather than MFM that most used) but they > were single-sided. I have several Series II and Series III Intellec > systems and none has double-sided disk drives. I have verified that it is indeed an DS/DD image. > > Another observation in the above strings...the Z80.ZILOG > isn't Intel. > They never sold anything that supported any Z-80-specific > systems. And > ISIS, from Intel, was ISIS-II. Intel would not have left off > the "-II" > from their identifiers. I have found references to z80 extensions for the Intellec series, however based on the DS/DD discrepancy and other clues, I must agree that this probably is NOT Intellec. > > Now, for my guess. This looks like possibly something from a > competitor > of Intel, or possibly one of the development systems from Zilog or > National. It is possible they used an ISIS-compatible file > format, or > object module format. That may be what the "ISIS" is all > about in that > string. I have been examining more of the disks (there are about 40 that appear to be panasonic source code). I have one that appears to be a CP/M disk with a lot of tools from "SOPHIA SYSTEMS CO., LTD.". They are an ICE developer. 60K CP/M VERS 2.2 SS-5000 SYSTEM Did Sophia Systems make entire units, or just the software and ICE attachments? From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 18 19:58:37 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:58:37 -0500 Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252><01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING><200610181331.46285.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <00f001c6f319$b7c79480$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> David wrote.... > Don't discount me because I misremembered midi's speed. David, you have a freepass in my book - because of your wonderful constant reminder about not top-posting. As follows: > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? The only thing more annoying than top-posting is not top-posting but also neglecting to trim the replies to just the germane info ;) Jay From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 18 19:59:43 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 17:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" disk storage In-Reply-To: <200610182235.k9IMZAI1087382@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200610182235.k9IMZAI1087382@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > I'm starting to get a rather large collection > of Amiga and PC disks. > What is better for storage and easy access, > small cardboard boxes (W:5" D:4" H:5") that I > can get for nothing from work or the proper > plastic case things that can hold 50 or 100 > disks? There are (or used to be) cardboard drawer-style boxes for holding 300 or so disks at a time. The drawers are divided into three columns, each of which is divided into slots which hold 20 or so disks each. An office supply store should have them. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Oct 18 20:14:59 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:14:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IIci cache cards? Message-ID: <200610190114.k9J1ExBu021330@floodgap.com> Anyone got any IIci cache cards they'd be willing to consider parting with? My indefatigable IIci (which has powered DNS, printer services and network power services to my apartment network for going on six years now) has burned through another one, evidenced by 1) a kernel panic in NetBSD 2) the Chimes of Death 3) the Chimes of Death going away replaced by normal booting when I replaced the cache card. It seems I go through one around every two years, so it was due to eat another one, I guess. The 32K variant will do nicely. Please respond offlist, and thanks. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When people get acupuncture, do voodoo dolls die? -------------------------- From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Oct 18 20:17:16 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:17:16 -0400 Subject: 3.5" disk storage References: <200610182235.k9IMZAI1087382@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <005301c6f31c$5748a3d0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Griffith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 8:59 PM Subject: Re: 3.5" disk storage > On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > > I'm starting to get a rather large collection > > of Amiga and PC disks. > > What is better for storage and easy access, > > small cardboard boxes (W:5" D:4" H:5") that I > > can get for nothing from work or the proper > > plastic case things that can hold 50 or 100 > > disks? > > There are (or used to be) cardboard drawer-style boxes for holding 300 or > so disks at a time. The drawers are divided into three columns, each of > which is divided into slots which hold 20 or so disks each. An office > supply store should have them. > > -- > David Griffith I like using old fellows disk drawers that interconnect with others (top and side). I think I have 12 of the 3.5" and 2 of the 5.25" (lockable). These used to cost something like $20 each when new, they come up on ebay once in a while This is the type here: Ebay Item number: 200036617045 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 18 20:48:52 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:48:52 -0600 Subject: Mick and Brick In-Reply-To: <20061019001456.34439.qmail@web81314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20061019001456.34439.qmail@web81314.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4536D984.7070700@jetnet.ab.ca> William Maddox wrote: > There are even more copies listed on > www.bookfinder.com. > Copies for all -- come and get 'em while they last! Well I am broke this month ... real soon now. > --Bill PS... Or when I plan to do more 2901 design. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Oct 18 20:50:11 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:50:11 -0500 Subject: IIci cache cards? In-Reply-To: <200610190114.k9J1ExBu021330@floodgap.com> References: <200610190114.k9J1ExBu021330@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4536D9D3.7060902@mdrconsult.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Anyone got any IIci cache cards they'd be willing to consider parting with? > My indefatigable IIci (which has powered DNS, printer services and network > power services to my apartment network for going on six years now) has > burned through another one, evidenced by 1) a kernel panic in NetBSD 2) the > Chimes of Death 3) the Chimes of Death going away replaced by normal booting > when I replaced the cache card. > > It seems I go through one around every two years, so it was due to eat another > one, I guess. The 32K variant will do nicely. Please respond offlist, and > thanks. Pretty sure I've got one, since there's now a Di'imo board in its place. I'll try to dig it out tomorrow. For that matter, I may very well have a Daystar 68040 for it, if you're interested. Doc From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Oct 18 21:47:24 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 22:47:24 -0400 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive Message-ID: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry> Don't know if any of you saw this, but a 5.25" floppy disk drive just went for $192 on E-Bay tonight (Wed., 10/18). It was a "backpack" external parallel port drive, New Old Stock in Box, still shrink wrapped. I am strongly of the opinion that there is a far bigger market than is generally perceived for a USB floppy disk controller that will support 5.25" and even 8" drives, if only someone would develop the product. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 18 21:55:15 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:55:15 -0500 Subject: 3.5" disk storage In-Reply-To: References: <200610182235.k9IMZAI1087382@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20061018215429.04ff0408@mail> At 07:59 PM 10/18/2006, David Griffith wrote: >There are (or used to be) cardboard drawer-style boxes for holding 300 or >so disks at a time. The drawers are divided into three columns, each of >which is divided into slots which hold 20 or so disks each. An office >supply store should have them. My Amiga disk collection is housed in plastic tubs with lids sold for storing clothes such as sweaters. I made my own cardboard dividers. - John From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 18 22:10:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:10:54 -0700 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <200610182010540287.047F5514@10.0.0.252> On 10/18/2006 at 10:47 PM Barry Watzman wrote: >Don't know if any of you saw this, but a 5.25" floppy disk drive just went >for $192 on E-Bay tonight (Wed., 10/18). > >It was a "backpack" external parallel port drive, New Old Stock in Box, >still shrink wrapped. Note that a 3.5" Backpack will support a 5.25' drive--and I believe that a BP controller can support up to 2 drives. Hmmm, I've still got a few 3.5' BP drives in original shrinkwrap... The backpack controller itself is little more than an NS 80277, a bit of RAM and what looks like a custom-programmed single-chip MPU. Conversation with it is via a 4-bit data path. The neat thing is that you can program that 82077 just like the one on an ISA floppy controller. The amazing thing about MS was their absolute refusal to discuss programming of th thing--I had to take apart their driver myself to figure it out so I could write a Win95 VxD for it. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Oct 18 22:15:32 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 22:15:32 -0500 Subject: 3.5" disk storage In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20061018215429.04ff0408@mail> References: <200610182235.k9IMZAI1087382@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20061018215429.04ff0408@mail> Message-ID: <4536EDD4.90300@oldskool.org> John Foust wrote: > My Amiga disk collection is housed in plastic tubs with lids sold for > storing clothes such as sweaters. I made my own cardboard dividers. My initial knee-jerk reaction to this is "how horrific and crude!" And yet, on further thought, I can't find anything wrong with this solution in terms of weatherproofing, space management (stacking, etc.), etc. Are there pros/cons I'm missing? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Oct 18 22:16:58 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 23:16:58 -0400 Subject: 3.5" disk storage References: <200610182235.k9IMZAI1087382@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20061018215429.04ff0408@mail> Message-ID: <006601c6f32d$0a1b5880$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:55 PM Subject: Re: 3.5" disk storage > At 07:59 PM 10/18/2006, David Griffith wrote: > >There are (or used to be) cardboard drawer-style boxes for holding 300 or > >so disks at a time. The drawers are divided into three columns, each of > >which is divided into slots which hold 20 or so disks each. An office > >supply store should have them. > > My Amiga disk collection is housed in plastic tubs with lids sold for > storing clothes such as sweaters. I made my own cardboard dividers. > > - John Those are not made of the staticy plastic are they? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 18 22:29:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:29:36 -0700 Subject: 3.5" disk storage In-Reply-To: <006601c6f32d$0a1b5880$0b01a8c0@game> References: <200610182235.k9IMZAI1087382@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20061018215429.04ff0408@mail> <006601c6f32d$0a1b5880$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200610182029360461.04907492@10.0.0.252> I couldn't find anything that I really thought was either large enough nor sturdy enough, so I built my own in oak (panel, stile and rail). 6 ft. high, maybe 4 ft. wide on casters with 8 drawers on ball-bearing glides. Holds 8, 5.25 and 3.5" floppies as well as a few CD-ROMs with a bit of storage below for odds and ends. It was fun to do and I justified buying a new router table for building it. Cheers, Chuck . From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Oct 18 22:41:16 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 22:41:16 -0500 Subject: 3.5" disk storage In-Reply-To: <4536EDD4.90300@oldskool.org> References: <200610182235.k9IMZAI1087382@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20061018215429.04ff0408@mail> <4536EDD4.90300@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20061018223753.05a2bae8@mail> At 10:15 PM 10/18/2006, Jim Leonard wrote: >John Foust wrote: >>My Amiga disk collection is housed in plastic tubs with lids sold for >>storing clothes such as sweaters. I made my own cardboard dividers. >My initial knee-jerk reaction to this is "how horrific and crude!" And yet, on further thought, I can't find anything wrong with this solution in terms of weatherproofing, space management (stacking, etc.), etc. Are there pros/cons I'm missing? Once full of disks, the columns of disks don't move much side-to-side. If you leave a little slack in the columns, you can flip through the disks to find the ones you want. Obviously this works better if the columns are full of disks (you don't want one column full and the others empty.) But as you say, they've served well for stacking, dust prevention, and easy access. And the boxes only cost a few bucks each. At 10:16 PM 10/18/2006, Teo Zenios wrote: >Those are not made of the staticy plastic are they? And what do you think static will do to a 3.5" floppy? Or are you worried that touching it will - John From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 18 22:53:43 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:53:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: wavy diagonal lines Message-ID: <20061019035343.71948.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> across the screen. Specifically a trs80 model 4. Is this indicative of a video circuitry problem or a display problem? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 18 23:21:57 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:21:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Oct 2006, Barry Watzman wrote: > Don't know if any of you saw this, but a 5.25" floppy disk drive just went > for $192 on E-Bay tonight (Wed., 10/18). > > It was a "backpack" external parallel port drive, New Old Stock in Box, > still shrink wrapped. > > I am strongly of the opinion that there is a far bigger market than is > generally perceived for a USB floppy disk controller that will support 5.25" > and even 8" drives, if only someone would develop the product. I agree. Perhaps one can start with one of the open-source FPGA implementations of floppy controllers known to support 5.25" and 3.5" drives. Couple that with (mumble)'s 8" converter gizmo. Add to that a general-purpose USB controller chip. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Oct 18 23:25:45 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:25:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: staticy plastic tubs In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20061018223753.05a2bae8@mail> References: <200610182235.k9IMZAI1087382@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20061018215429.04ff0408@mail> <4536EDD4.90300@oldskool.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20061018223753.05a2bae8@mail> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Oct 2006, John Foust wrote: > >Those are not made of the staticy plastic are they? > > And what do you think static will do to a 3.5" floppy? Or are you worried > that touching it will This brings to mind a question: I have lots of chips packaged in static-safe chip tubes which are then put in metalized anti-static plastic bags. Is it okay to put packages like this into said staticy plastic tubs? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Oct 18 23:37:35 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 00:37:35 -0400 Subject: staticy plastic tubs In-Reply-To: References: <200610182235.k9IMZAI1087382@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20061018223753.05a2bae8@mail> Message-ID: <200610190037.35367.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 19 October 2006 00:25, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 18 Oct 2006, John Foust wrote: > > >Those are not made of the staticy plastic are they? > > > > And what do you think static will do to a 3.5" floppy? Or are you > > worried that touching it will > > This brings to mind a question: I have lots of chips packaged in > static-safe chip tubes which are then put in metalized anti-static > plastic bags. Is it okay to put packages like this into said staticy > plastic tubs? Yes, the point of the anti-static bags (or chip tubes) is to dissipate static charges and protect the contents. Just be careful to dissipate static that you (and the anti-static packaging) accumulate after pulling them out of the tub and before you pull the devices out of the tubes. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ENelson at mayerbrownrowe.com Wed Oct 18 15:43:24 2006 From: ENelson at mayerbrownrowe.com (Nelson, Elaine J.) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 15:43:24 -0500 Subject: Western Union Teletype Model 15 or 19 Message-ID: <6FEF76BCE3B34E4286E9CE5B2A1A53F4013B6DD4@CHI-EXCLMB02.americas.global-legal.com> I am in possession of a Western Union teletype machine - I don't have the exact model number with me. I would like to get rid of it and was hoping you might have some idea as to how I can sell or relocate it. Thank you in advance of your consideration. Elaine Nelson Telephone: 312.701.8010 From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Oct 18 16:04:53 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 22:04:53 +0100 Subject: new part-faulty RAM chips? In-Reply-To: <453682C1.7040006@yahoo.co.uk> References: <453682C1.7040006@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <453696F5.6050207@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Does anyone know if the Sinclair Spectrum ever made use of RAM chips > that were known to be part-faulty as-new? This was just asked over on > another mailing list... Yes. The upper 32k were supposed to be 4164s. There are sets of jumpers on board to allow for a couple of different types of chips and to switch which "half" is in use. Naturally, all the chips need to be the same. I learned this the hard way when cannibalising dead Spectrums for bits when I was a skint spotty teenager. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Oct 18 16:06:19 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 22:06:19 +0100 Subject: Odd 8-bit ISA CD-ROM interface? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4536974B.6020309@gjcp.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have this board here, marked "Reveal / Part No. 14-004-008" with an > FCC ID if BEJGCD-R420B. It is an 8-bit ISA card with a few jumpers > (1-4 and 1-9) and a single 40-pin IDC connector. > >> From a bit of googling, it seems to be an ancient CD-ROM interface. > That would be interesting as it's 8-bit and AFAIK, ATAPI devices are > 16-bit only. There's not much on the card - a couple of buffers ('244, > '245), an address comparator ('688), and a wee bit of logic ('32 x 2, > '08, '00)... nothing to, say, latch two 8-bit writes into a 16-bit > register. > > Anyone recognize this beast? Is it useful in anything besides a > DOS/Win3.1 box? Probably some sort of Mitsumi interface. I expect it would be useful as a fast-ish 8-bit parallel port... Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Oct 18 16:13:21 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 22:13:21 +0100 Subject: VAX 8600 (was Re: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <453698F1.7080302@gjcp.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/18/06, Witchy wrote: >> On Tue, October 17, 2006 11:25 pm, Jules Richardson said: >> > >> > There's always the DECSystem 570 and the VAX 8600 to get your teeth >> into - >> >> *looks for picture of VAX8600, fails* > > Google Image search is your friend... > > http://hampage.hu/vax/e_1984.html > > I never ran one, but I used to walk past one in a semi-stripped > condition at Lucent in Columbus, OH, c. 1997. I have an RL02 labelled up "VAX8600 Console" or similar, that came with my PDP-11/73 that originally belonged to Aberdeen College of Agriculture. This may tie in with Aberdeen Uni having a 20.. I doubt the -20 was at RGIT - they had a Honeywell among others, and I missed a couple of PDP-8s before they hit the skip around 15 years ago :-/ Gordon. From root at parse.com Wed Oct 18 20:46:11 2006 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 21:46:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Help about am2901 In-Reply-To: <4536B235.2070305@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Oct 18, 2006 05:01:09 PM Message-ID: <200610190146.k9J1kCxM085900@amd64.ott.parse.com> woodelf sez... > > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> "Bit-Slice Microprocessor Design" by Mick and Brick has block diagrams > >> and data sheets for the entire 29xx bit-slice family along with lots > >> of discussion about how to hook them all up to make your own processor. > > > > > > Co-incidentally I picked up a copy of that recently from a friend of > > mine who was having a clearout. > > Does he have any more for sale? I use "www.abebooks.com" -- they have several for US$2.77 + US$3.75 S/H and up. It's *amazing* what you can find at ABE... My wife uses them for textbooks. Cheers, -RK -- Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices Realtime Systems Architecture, Consulting, Books and Training at www.parse.com Looking for Digital Equipment Corp. PDP-1 through PDP-15 minicomputers! From knightbug at yahoo.com Wed Oct 18 22:59:32 2006 From: knightbug at yahoo.com (BK) Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 20:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ESCON TYPE WRITER INTERFACE Message-ID: <20061019035932.54100.qmail@web35813.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello I was the factory rep on this product. I worked with HP on the installtion traing video. please feel free to reply. bk We will rise up on wings of gold 1Knight __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From henk.gooijen at oce.com Thu Oct 19 01:06:20 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:06:20 +0200 Subject: Help about am2901 In-Reply-To: <200610190146.k9J1kCxM085900@amd64.ott.parse.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488046@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > >> "Bit-Slice Microprocessor Design" by Mick and Brick has block > > >> diagrams and data sheets for the entire 29xx bit-slice > > >> family along with lots of discussion about how to hook them > > >> all up to make your own processor. > > > > > > Co-incidentally I picked up a copy of that recently from > > > a friend of mine who was having a clearout. > > > > Does he have any more for sale? > > I use "www.abebooks.com" -- they have several for US$2.77 + > US$3.75 S/H and up. > > Cheers, > -RK > -- > Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices > Realtime Systems Architecture, Consulting, Books and Training > at www.parse.com Looking for Digital Equipment Corp. PDP-1 > through PDP-15 minicomputers! Thanks Robert, I just ordered a copy for $12 (+$12 shipping to The Netherlands). Will be nice reading material during Xmas days! - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 19 01:44:07 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 00:44:07 -0600 Subject: Help about am2901 In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488046@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488046@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <45371EB7.6040705@jetnet.ab.ca> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > Thanks Robert, I just ordered a copy for $12 (+$12 shipping to > The Netherlands). Will be nice reading material during Xmas days! Hmm another project for Henk I see looking into my Crystal Ball ... *poof* Oh drat there goes the magic smoke ... White this time. > - Henk. Well tommorow I plan to test my SCB6120 so I hope the magic smoke stays inside as I just finished soldering in the sockets. Tommorow a PDP-8 lives < sound effects > Evil laugher , thunder bolts < / sound effects > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Oct 19 03:29:06 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:29:06 +0200 Subject: Odd 8-bit ISA CD-ROM interface? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061019102906.0b45e38f@SirToby.dinner41.de> On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:10:32 -0500 (CDT) Tothwolf wrote: > It should be supported under Linux or *BSD. At least NetBSD supports only the old Mitsumi CDROM controller: mcd(4). Linux supported way more of those funky, proprietary IDE like CDROMs. But most likely this junk was removed from (semi) recent kernels. If you need a CDROM with a 8 bit ISA interface you may use a SCSI drive with a ST-01 / ST-02 or NCR 53C400 SCSI adapter. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ray at arachelian.com Thu Oct 19 08:44:49 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:44:49 -0400 Subject: wavy diagonal lines In-Reply-To: <20061019035343.71948.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061019035343.71948.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45378151.7060302@arachelian.com> Chris M wrote: > across the screen. Specifically a trs80 model 4. Is > this indicative of a video circuitry problem or a > display problem I don't know the TRS80's, but on the Lisa, wavy lines usually indicate power supply problems, typically replacing the large AC capacitors helps. It could also be RFI from something nearby. From ray at arachelian.com Thu Oct 19 08:44:58 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:44:58 -0400 Subject: 3.5" disk storage In-Reply-To: References: <200610182235.k9IMZAI1087382@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4537815A.4040607@arachelian.com> David Griffith wrote: > There are (or used to be) cardboard drawer-style boxes for holding 300 or > so disks at a time. The drawers are divided into three columns, each of > which is divided into slots which hold 20 or so disks each. An office > supply store should have them Shoe boxes work fine too. And they stack quite nicely. Make sure you keep those dessicant packs that come with the shoes in there too. I wouldn't worry about static as much as EM fields. Keep'em away from anything made of steel/iron, CRT's, speakers, power lines, etc. You can use a compass to see if there's any danger around. :-) From ray at arachelian.com Thu Oct 19 08:45:29 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:45:29 -0400 Subject: staticy plastic tubs In-Reply-To: References: <200610182235.k9IMZAI1087382@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20061018215429.04ff0408@mail> <4536EDD4.90300@oldskool.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20061018223753.05a2bae8@mail> Message-ID: <45378179.1050605@arachelian.com> David Griffith wrote: > This brings to mind a question: I have lots of chips packaged in > static-safe chip tubes which are then put in metalized anti-static plastic > bags. Is it okay to put packages like this into said staticy plastic > tubs? > Yes. But to be even safer, you could line the inside of those bins, and if you can, the sides and top with aluminum foil. This will build something like a Faraday cage which will keep the chip tubes nice and safe. From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu Oct 19 02:33:32 2006 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:33:32 +0200 Subject: Help about am2901 In-Reply-To: <4536B235.2070305@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <45365F93.1090105@gjcp.net> <4536B235.2070305@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <45372A4C.5040307@iais.fraunhofer.de> woodelf schrieb: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>> "Bit-Slice Microprocessor Design" by Mick and Brick has block diagrams >>> and data sheets for the entire 29xx bit-slice family along with lots >>> of discussion about how to hook them all up to make your own processor. >> >> >> Co-incidentally I picked up a copy of that recently from a friend of >> mine who was having a clearout. > > Does he have any more for sale? >> Gordon. Some time ago, I ordered one via the "used books" site at Amazon (shipping to Europe unfortunately was more expensive than the book itself which was about 4USD. -- Holger From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Oct 19 02:51:31 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:51:31 +0100 Subject: Somewhat OT: Wireless MIDI In-Reply-To: <00f001c6f319$b7c79480$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200610171334050595.81EDC637@10.0.0.252><01dd01c6f230$a8a622d0$6700a8c0@BILLING><200610181331.46285.rtellason@verizon.net> <00f001c6f319$b7c79480$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <45372E83.30601@gjcp.net> Jay West wrote: > David wrote.... >> Don't discount me because I misremembered midi's speed. > > David, you have a freepass in my book - because of your wonderful > constant reminder about not top-posting. As follows: >> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > The only thing more annoying than top-posting is not top-posting but > also neglecting to trim the replies to just the germane info ;) ... when you receive a daily digest Gordon From kelly at catcorner.org Thu Oct 19 09:06:03 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:06:03 -0400 Subject: Trying to identify a Macro Assembler Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B1405@MEOW.catcorner.org> >From the header of the assembled files: SYSTEM ANALYZER IN-III IN-III MACRO ASMB IN-III LINKER VERSION 3-2 840801 IN-III MACRO ASMB. (Z80.ZILOG) VER. 1-01 830131 DATE 58.09.22 (Japanese style date, Showa 58 = 1983) Dates to around 1983/1984. Supports the 6301, 6809 and Z80. Thanks, Kelly From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 19 10:12:13 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:12:13 -0400 Subject: VAX 8600 (was Re: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <831CFB7F-E978-4B5D-B940-33A3CAB6B958@neurotica.com> On Oct 18, 2006, at 6:59 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: >>> I meant the 8600 that's in storage for us at Bletchley Park :) >>> >>> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/VAX%208600.JPG >>> >>> Running state is currently unknown since the building it's in has >>> no power >>> and there's little chance of getting 3-phase anywhere on site! I've >>> audited the boxen and she seems to be complete and apparently >>> worked when >>> decommissioned a year or two ago.... >> >> OMG...That is a beautiful system!! > > It is, and thanks to the people that are storing it for us (it's not > actually at Bletchley) it's still free of pigeon crap and other > airborne > nasties that affect paintwork :) I'll dig out the full pix of the > system but > beware that they're huge because I wanted to make sure all the > components > were in place..... Please do; I'd love to see them! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 19 10:11:04 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:11:04 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <200610182010540287.047F5514@10.0.0.252> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry> <200610182010540287.047F5514@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <45379588.3020703@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Hmmm, I've still got a few 3.5' BP drives in original shrinkwrap... > > The backpack controller itself is little more than an NS 80277, a bit of > RAM and what looks like a custom-programmed single-chip MPU. Conversation > with it is via a 4-bit data path. The neat thing is that you can program > that 82077 just like the one on an ISA floppy controller. > > The amazing thing about MS was their absolute refusal to discuss > programming of th thing--I had to take apart their driver myself to figure > it out so I could write a Win95 VxD for it. Gah - the BP drive is my least-favourite device of all time. I spent many hours struggling to get one working under Linux a few years ago with no luck - this was including lots of talking to the developers of the Linux BP drivers and sending trace logs back and forth; they couldn't make any sense of it either. Makes me wonder if the timing protocol changed at some point or something. The experience certainly did a lot to put me off external floppy devices, anyway. :-( cheers, Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 19 10:20:49 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:20:49 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <453797D1.5000903@yahoo.co.uk> David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 18 Oct 2006, Barry Watzman wrote: > >> Don't know if any of you saw this, but a 5.25" floppy disk drive just went >> for $192 on E-Bay tonight (Wed., 10/18). >> >> It was a "backpack" external parallel port drive, New Old Stock in Box, >> still shrink wrapped. >> >> I am strongly of the opinion that there is a far bigger market than is >> generally perceived for a USB floppy disk controller that will support 5.25" >> and even 8" drives, if only someone would develop the product. > > I agree. Perhaps one can start with one of the open-source FPGA > implementations of floppy controllers known to support 5.25" and 3.5" > drives. Couple that with (mumble)'s 8" converter gizmo. Add to that a > general-purpose USB controller chip. I know we go around this issue every few months, but it is worth considering your target market. If the aim is for this to be more useful to classic computing enthusiasts (which the inclusion of 8" support suggests) then I would expect as a group we're more likely to have knowledge of programming / building gadgets based around classic 8-bit CPUs and some EPROM, or maybe PIC microcontrollers, than we are of FPGA technology. Same goes for the use of USB for an interface - witness the recent posts from people who much prefer to have RS232 serial around on their systems. Of course maybe the solution is two parallel projects which share the same design philosophy and a lot of the high-level stuff, even though the low-level hardware and interface is different? Either way, I'd say it's probably not worth making a 'classic' floppy controller. We (as a community) badly need a gadget that can read/write raw data at the track level across the interface boundary (be it USB, serial, or something else) - given that need it'd be sensible to make that a design goal from day 1. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 19 10:23:34 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:23:34 -0500 Subject: 3.5" disk storage In-Reply-To: <200610182029360461.04907492@10.0.0.252> References: <200610182235.k9IMZAI1087382@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20061018215429.04ff0408@mail> <006601c6f32d$0a1b5880$0b01a8c0@game> <200610182029360461.04907492@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <45379876.1030202@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I justified buying a new router table for building it. That is, of course, the most important bit :-) From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Oct 19 10:35:48 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:35:48 -0400 Subject: Odd 8-bit ISA CD-ROM interface? In-Reply-To: <200610181637070443.03BB9E5F@10.0.0.252> References: <200610181637070443.03BB9E5F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200610191135.49182.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 18 October 2006 07:37 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/19/2006 at 9:36 AM Ethan Dicks wrote: > >I have this board here, marked "Reveal / Part No. 14-004-008" with an > >FCC ID if BEJGCD-R420B. It is an 8-bit ISA card with a few jumpers > >(1-4 and 1-9) and a single 40-pin IDC connector. > > > >Anyone recognize this beast? Is it useful in anything besides a > >DOS/Win3.1 box? > > Ethan, there were 8 bit cards for early CD-ROM drives. These were > "IDE-like" and not necessarily ATAPI. I've got a document somewhere that > details all of the nonsense--but you'll need an early "IDE" CD-ROM drive > and driver software to use this thing. I have on hand here a number of early ISA sound cards and one or two adapter cards that just provide the CD interface for those pre-IDE interfaces. And I think *one* CD drive that uses one of them, if anybody would find such stuff useful... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, dealiest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of spac, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 19 10:48:29 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:48:29 -0400 Subject: VAX 8600 (was Re: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale) In-Reply-To: <831CFB7F-E978-4B5D-B940-33A3CAB6B958@neurotica.com> References: <831CFB7F-E978-4B5D-B940-33A3CAB6B958@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45379E4D.6090101@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Oct 18, 2006, at 6:59 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: >>>> I meant the 8600 that's in storage for us at Bletchley Park :) >>>> >>>> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/VAX%208600.JPG >>>> >>>> Running state is currently unknown since the building it's in has >>>> no power >>>> and there's little chance of getting 3-phase anywhere on site! I've >>>> audited the boxen and she seems to be complete and apparently >>>> worked when >>>> decommissioned a year or two ago.... >>> >>> OMG...That is a beautiful system!! >> >> It is, and thanks to the people that are storing it for us (it's not >> actually at Bletchley) it's still free of pigeon crap and other airborne >> nasties that affect paintwork :) I'll dig out the full pix of the >> system but >> beware that they're huge because I wanted to make sure all the components >> were in place..... > > Please do; I'd love to see them! Seconded! Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Oct 19 10:49:26 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:49:26 -0400 Subject: 3.5" disk storage In-Reply-To: <45379876.1030202@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200610182235.k9IMZAI1087382@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20061018215429.04ff0408@mail> <006601c6f32d$0a1b5880$0b01a8c0@game> <200610182029360461.04907492@10.0.0.252> <45379876.1030202@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45379E86.8080709@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I justified buying a new router table for building it. > > That is, of course, the most important bit :-) I think the bullnose roundoff bit is the most important bit. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Oct 19 11:25:49 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:25:49 -0500 Subject: Odd 8-bit ISA CD-ROM interface? In-Reply-To: <20061019102906.0b45e38f@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <20061019102906.0b45e38f@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: <4537A70D.4020803@oldskool.org> Jochen Kunz wrote: > Linux supported way more of those funky, proprietary IDE like CDROMs. > But most likely this junk was removed from (semi) recent kernels. Removed from the SOURCE tree, or from most compiled distros? If removed from the source tree, I had better hold onto my older versions... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Oct 19 11:53:44 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:53:44 -0400 Subject: Odd 8-bit ISA CD-ROM interface? In-Reply-To: <4537A70D.4020803@oldskool.org> References: <20061019102906.0b45e38f@SirToby.dinner41.de> <4537A70D.4020803@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200610191253.44515.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 19 October 2006 12:25 pm, Jim Leonard wrote: > Jochen Kunz wrote: > > Linux supported way more of those funky, proprietary IDE like CDROMs. > > But most likely this junk was removed from (semi) recent kernels. > > Removed from the SOURCE tree, or from most compiled distros? > > If removed from the source tree, I had better hold onto my older > versions... I can't speak for other distros, but in Slackware I believe that stuff is still included, just not installed or configured by default. Who gets rid of older versions, anyhow? :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, dealiest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of spac, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 19 11:56:59 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 09:56:59 -0700 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <45379588.3020703@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <200610182010540287.047F5514@10.0.0.252>, <45379588.3020703@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45374BEB.12786.773A036@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Oct 2006 at 10:11, Jules Richardson wrote: > Gah - the BP drive is my least-favourite device of all time. I spent many > hours struggling to get one working under Linux a few years ago with no luck - > this was including lots of talking to the developers of the Linux BP drivers > and sending trace logs back and forth; they couldn't make any sense of it > either. Makes me wonder if the timing protocol changed at some point or something. I don't think so--we sold the 3.5" versions with our special software (for handling 360 RPM 3.5" drives) from the metal-cased version right up to the time they stopped shipping the plastic-cased version. Timing's a little twitchy, but not too bad in the PeeCee universe of things--and the Windoze 9x/3.1 VxD's were solid. Forgot to mention that the BP also has 16x63 bit serial NVRAM in it. Was just reminded of it looking at some old code. If you're thinking about a Catweasel-type external box, then I'd put lots of memory (10 MB or more) and some programmable intelligence in it (so the "nuts and bolts" isn't subject to OS platform-related issues). Maybe interface with something dirt-common, like RS-232C. Of course, this would push the price of a basic unit up pretty high. Cheers, Chuck P.S. This is my first message using a new email client--Pegasus. Calypso finally has developed an irritating bug that I can't fix because I don't have access to the source code. From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Oct 19 12:14:53 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:14:53 -0400 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <200610191705.k9JH5I2u015427@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004c01c6f3a2$18152bd0$6600a8c0@barry> Re: " Hmmm, I've still got a few 3.5' BP drives in original shrinkwrap..." No go. There is no demand for either the 3.5" drives or the CD drives. Only the 5.25" drives ($192 was high, but these usually go for about $100). Reason: There ARE USB 3.5" floppy drives, and USB external CD drives. But, at present, if you need to read a 5.25" floppy on a PC, there is no easy way to do it. Modern motherboards no longer even support two floppy drives [at all, of any kind]. And laptops? Forget it. We NEED a USB 5.25" (and I'd argue even 8") drive interface device. It should support both 360k and 1.2MB 5.15" drives, and perhaps 8" drives as well. At present, the old parallel port 5.25" drives are the only option for many people. So they will fetch absurd prices. I have a 3.5" backpack also. And a backpack tape drive, which used a floppy interface. I'd love to convert either/both to a 5.25" drive if you know how. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 19 12:42:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 10:42:15 -0700 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <45374BEB.12786.773A036@cclist.sydex.com> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <45379588.3020703@yahoo.co.uk>, <45374BEB.12786.773A036@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45375687.24851.79D149F@cclist.sydex.com> On 10/19/2006 at 1:14 PM Barry Watzman wrote: >I have a 3.5" backpack also. And a backpack tape drive, which used >a floppy interface. I'd love to convert either/both to a 5.25" >drive if you know how. The interface electronics for both 3.5 and 5.25 are the same--only the NVRAM content is different--and that can be easily changed. Most of the rest is PSU (most 5.25" drives require +12 in addition to +5) and the physical box to hold it all in. You could even put a 5.25"/3.5" combo drive on the BP controller--it supports 2 drives. I've never fooled with the BP tape drive, so I don't know what's inside. I've also got a Rancho Technologies parallel-to-floppy PCB, but haven't bothered to figure out the programming protocol. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Oct 19 14:14:16 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:14:16 -0600 Subject: Help about am2901 In-Reply-To: <45371EB7.6040705@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488046@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <45371EB7.6040705@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4537CE88.3010109@jetnet.ab.ca> woodelf wrote: > Well tommorow I plan to test my SCB6120 so I hope the magic smoke stays > inside as I just finished soldering in the sockets. Tommorow a PDP-8 > lives < sound effects > Evil laugher , thunder bolts < / sound effects > > A bolt of lightning strikes the 6402 ... Ok I installed it backwards, but I had a spare in my junk box. I pull the power switch ... A bat flies by ... It *lives* . Now I just have to run over to the local computer store a IDE cable and adapter for a laptop drive and mounting hardware. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 19 14:16:19 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:16:19 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <45374BEB.12786.773A036@cclist.sydex.com> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <200610182010540287.047F5514@10.0.0.252>, <45379588.3020703@yahoo.co.uk> <45374BEB.12786.773A036@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4537CF03.1000500@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you're thinking about a Catweasel-type external box, then I'd put > lots of memory (10 MB or more) I don't think you necessarily need anything like that much; I remember Dave Dunfield and I discussing this a while back and it worked out at something like a couple of hundred KB I'm sure. > and some programmable intelligence in > it (so the "nuts and bolts" isn't subject to OS platform-related > issues). Oh, absolutely. I was wondering about making the bulk of device's firmware downloadable from the attached computer to be honest, just so things can be as flexible as possible. > Maybe interface with something dirt-common, like RS-232C. > Of course, this would push the price of a basic unit up pretty high. I don't know, what's a couple of hundred KB of memory, a CPU (say a Z80 for sake of argument), a bit of ROM, and a serial interface chip, plus a bit of glue logic? Actually, some of the PIC micros have RS232 ability (with the addition of line drivers) I believe and might kill two birds with one stone. Not sure what the cost of RAM would be - cheap if DRAM I suppose, but then there's the complexity of refreshing... SRAM would make life really easy. > P.S. This is my first message using a new email client--Pegasus. I feel honoured, or something ;) cheers Jules From jwest at ezwind.net Thu Oct 19 14:34:21 2006 From: jwest at ezwind.net (Jay West) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:34:21 -0500 Subject: dec /34a issue Message-ID: <001a01c6f3b5$96741d20$6700a8c0@BILLING> I just brought up my /34a and apparently it's sick. It has one DD11-PK. Configuration is as follows: 1 - M8266 (A-F) 2 - M8265 (A-F) 3 - M9312 (A-B), M7859 (C-F) 4 - M7891 (A-F) 5 - Grant (D) 6 - Grant (D) 7 - Grant (D) 8 - Grant (D) 9 - M9302 (A-B), Grant (D) What works: Storing & retreiving various patterns from ram via the front panel works fine in all cases. Looping on CLR PC loops as expected Looping on BR . loops as expected Trap catcher works (first pass halts at 1030 filling ram, then a BR . loops as expected). The memory address test program fails though. It halts at 246 indicating a memory addressing error. R1 points to 422. Examining memory via the front panel shows the following: 420 420 422 177355 424 177353 426 177351 430 177347 So it looks to me like it is able to store 420 in 420, but nothing after that. I would normally think there is a problem with the memory board (M7891). However, I have replaced that board with 2 others, and all 3 boards fail at the same address AND with the same values. I find that likely to rule out the memory board as really being bad. In addition, I can deposit and examine values to locations 420 through 430 via the front panel just fine. It's my understanding that the KY11-LB puts data in memory via the unibus, so I would think this makes it somewhat unlikely to be a backplane issue. Is it a strong likelyhood that the problem is the cpu set itself then, as that's what would be writing the values to memory during the address test? And as I type this, I just noticed something interesting. The numbers stored in ram at 422 through 430 are the right numbers, just inverted logic. More specifically if you invert all the bits in 177355 you get 422, if you invert all the bits in 177353 you get 424, inverting 177351 gives 426 (all the latter values being what I'd expect). I'm guessing there's a dead inverter on the cpu set somewhere perhaps? But if that's the case, why does 420 get set to 420 correctly?? Any advice is most appreciated :) Jay West From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Oct 19 14:45:21 2006 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:45:21 -0400 Subject: dec /34a issue In-Reply-To: <001a01c6f3b5$96741d20$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <001a01c6f3b5$96741d20$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4537D5D1.2090602@splab.cas.neu.edu> Well, I don't have the listing in front of me, but perhaps there are multiple passes through the memory test. Maybe it wrote out all the inverted numbers fine on the first pass, then when it tried to write the real numbers it failed (or vice versa). That way it will test all the bits, although not adjacent bit stickiness. So, maybe try to write the inverted number to 420? Just my quick thoughts. Joe Heck Jay West wrote: > I just brought up my /34a and apparently it's sick. It has one DD11-PK. > Configuration is as follows: > > 1 - M8266 (A-F) > 2 - M8265 (A-F) > 3 - M9312 (A-B), M7859 (C-F) > 4 - M7891 (A-F) > 5 - Grant (D) > 6 - Grant (D) > 7 - Grant (D) > 8 - Grant (D) > 9 - M9302 (A-B), Grant (D) > > What works: > Storing & retreiving various patterns from ram via the front panel works > fine in all cases. > Looping on CLR PC loops as expected > Looping on BR . loops as expected > Trap catcher works (first pass halts at 1030 filling ram, then a BR . > loops as expected). > > The memory address test program fails though. It halts at 246 indicating > a memory addressing error. R1 points to 422. Examining memory via the > front panel shows the following: > > 420 420 > 422 177355 > 424 177353 > 426 177351 > 430 177347 > > So it looks to me like it is able to store 420 in 420, but nothing after > that. I would normally think there is a problem with the memory board > (M7891). However, I have replaced that board with 2 others, and all 3 > boards fail at the same address AND with the same values. I find that > likely to rule out the memory board as really being bad. In addition, I > can deposit and examine values to locations 420 through 430 via the > front panel just fine. It's my understanding that the KY11-LB puts data > in memory via the unibus, so I would think this makes it somewhat > unlikely to be a backplane issue. Is it a strong likelyhood that the > problem is the cpu set itself then, as that's what would be writing the > values to memory during the address test? > > And as I type this, I just noticed something interesting. The numbers > stored in ram at 422 through 430 are the right numbers, just inverted > logic. More specifically if you invert all the bits in 177355 you get > 422, if you invert all the bits in 177353 you get 424, inverting 177351 > gives 426 (all the latter values being what I'd expect). I'm guessing > there's a dead inverter on the cpu set somewhere perhaps? But if that's > the case, why does 420 get set to 420 correctly?? > > Any advice is most appreciated :) > > Jay West From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 19 14:51:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:51:00 -0700 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <4537CF03.1000500@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <45374BEB.12786.773A036@cclist.sydex.com>, <4537CF03.1000500@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <453774B4.25279.812F7FE@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Oct 2006 at 14:16, Jules Richardson wrote: > I don't think you necessarily need anything like that much; I remember Dave > Dunfield and I discussing this a while back and it worked out at something > like a couple of hundred KB I'm sure. If you're going track-by-track, probably a couple hundred K is more than enough. But holding a complete 8" DSHD image runs to something like 6MB if you hang onto the whole histogram. I think you'd definitely want to have enough storage to hold a complete image--it'd make copying much simpler, no? Besides, a few megabytes of RAM is nothing nowadays. > I don't know, what's a couple of hundred KB of memory, a CPU (say a Z80 for > sake of argument), a bit of ROM, and a serial interface chip, plus a bit of > glue logic? Probably use something a bit more common, say an ARM? Not that I have anything against a Z80 (or Z180, or EZ80). Just that extra horsepower can be very nice, even if you don't need it right away. Cheers, Chuck From david at classiccomputing.com Thu Oct 19 13:24:32 2006 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:24:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer Audio Book Podcast Message-ID: <12028.208.255.229.66.1161282272.squirrel@wm2> Hi everyone, I would like to announce my newest project, a weekly podcast of an excellent book on computer history, in audio format. I have received permission from the author, Stan Veit, and his publisher to pursue this. The first installment is now ready. My podcasts are in m4a format, but there is a zipped mp3 version of this one that can be downloaded from my web site. Though I am not a professional broadcaster, announcer or reader, I have worked hard to make this production as professional as possible. Please give it a listen if you have a chance. The publisher hopes to put out a new edition of the book soon. This original edition was published in 1993. I have personally sold 250+ copies of it over the years, as I am a big fan and I have met Stan personally. Stan opened the first personal computer store on the east coast in New York City, which was only the second one in the world. He was also the founding Editor-In-Chief of Computer Shopper magazine. Thanks very much, David David Greelish classiccomputing.com The Classic Computing Podcast Home of Computer History Nostalgia Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer Audio Book Podcast From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Oct 19 14:58:28 2006 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (Joe Heck) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:58:28 -0400 Subject: vax/vms file archival ideas and suggestions Message-ID: <4537D8E4.8050203@splab.cas.neu.edu> Hi all, I must be missing something, but I have not found a good way to preserve a bunch of vax/vms files. I've looked at VMSZip, Gzip, VMSTar, etc, and I must be missing something. Here is what I am trying to do: Before my vax finally dies, I want to take the hundred or so TK50s I have and restore them to the hard drive and then move them to PC-land for long term storage. This is halfway done with the tapes that are easily readable. I now have a bunch of directories, one for each tape, with files in them on the VAX. So the tree is only two levels deep on the vax. The files are pretty mixed: backup files, savesets, distributions, text files, etc. Right now the files amount to about 2Gb. Now, the environment is: VAX 3100-30 with SCSI external. THis is where I hooked up the TK70 (TZ30?) to read the tapes. I have network access and can get to it via FTP and TELNET from elsewhere, namely my PC. I also have a bunch of different SCSI tape drives, 8mm, 4mm, 9 track, etc. So, I could transfer all the files if I could containerize (zip) them. Do I try to Zip them somehow (what program) and FTP them, or do I just write them to duplicate disks/tapes and throw them on a shelf, hoping I have a machine to read them in the future? I'm usually pretty good with this stuff, having been around the VMS world for a few decades, but I just have this memory block, or the blinders are on. Any suggestions? Thanks Joe Heck From ohh at drizzle.com Thu Oct 19 14:59:33 2006 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dec /34a issue In-Reply-To: <001a01c6f3b5$96741d20$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: Quoth Jay West, in part: > The memory address test program fails though. It halts at 246 indicating a > memory addressing error. R1 points to 422. Examining memory via the front > panel shows the following: [...] > So it looks to me like it is able to store 420 in 420, but nothing after > that. I would normally think there is a problem with the memory board > (M7891). However, I have replaced that board with 2 others, and all 3 boards > fail at the same address AND with the same values. I find that likely to > rule out the memory board as really being bad. In addition, I can deposit > and examine values to locations 420 through 430 via the front panel just > fine. It's my understanding that the KY11-LB puts data in memory via the > unibus, so I would think this makes it somewhat unlikely to be a backplane > issue. Is it a strong likelyhood that the problem is the cpu set itself > then, as that's what would be writing the values to memory during the > address test? It sounds like you've already done a good job of eliminating the obvious hardware issues. :) The fact that the data is _inverted_ afterwards interests me; that sounds like the sort of complememt-memory test pattern a memory test program would use in alternation with the first. So I wonder: Is the memory-test program corrupted? If so, is the source you loaded the test from bad, or did the test load correctly and later get partially corrupted in memory? If it got corrupted in memory, can you reload it and get it corrupted again? :) More to the point, would it re-corrupt in a consistent manner? ...That's just what pops to my mind, anyway. It seems like it'd be easier to have a fault that corrupted the test program than a fault that produced such peculiar and far-reaching results. :) -O.- From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Oct 19 14:59:41 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:59:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <4537CF03.1000500@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <200610182010540287.047F5514@10.0.0.252>, <45379588.3020703@yahoo.co.uk> <45374BEB.12786.773A036@cclist.sydex.com> <4537CF03.1000500@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Oct 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > Actually, some of the PIC micros have RS232 ability (with the addition > of line drivers) I believe and might kill two birds with one stone. Not > sure what the cost of RAM would be - cheap if DRAM I suppose, but then > there's the complexity of refreshing... SRAM would make life really > easy. I don't think that using an RS232 interface would be the Ideal Approach. The objective of this external drive box is to equip a "modern" computer with archaic disk drives. Given this, a USB interface would be the better choice since it would presumably require no additional driver fiddling. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 19 15:07:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:07:13 -0700 Subject: OT: Good deal on knockout punch set Message-ID: <45377881.31967.821CDEA@cclist.sydex.com> (For list members in the USA only) We were talking about panel work a little while ago and use of punches for larger holes (like the Greenlee punches). Today I note that in my email I have a coupon from Harbor Freight Tools for their knockout punch set: http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid= 91201 $11.99 with coupon, good at any HF retail store. If you'd like said coupon, drop me an email off-line and I'll forward it to you. Cheers, Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Oct 19 16:21:12 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:21:12 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <453774B4.25279.812F7FE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4537CF03.1000500@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200610192013.k9JKD97U004672@hosting.monisys.ca> > Probably use something a bit more common, say an ARM? Not that I > have anything against a Z80 (or Z180, or EZ80). Just that extra > horsepower can be very nice, even if you don't need it right away. If you are willing to go to an ARM, then I would put on say 16M and have lots of room for a complete image - an ethernet inferface would also be easy (built into many ARM devices), and would allow fast transfer of images. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 19 15:13:10 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <45374BEB.12786.773A036@cclist.sydex.com> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <200610182010540287.047F5514@10.0.0.252>, <45379588.3020703@yahoo.co.uk> <45374BEB.12786.773A036@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061019130951.S2835@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 19 Oct 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you're thinking about a Catweasel-type external box, then I'd put > lots of memory (10 MB or more) and some programmable intelligence in > it (so the "nuts and bolts" isn't subject to OS platform-related > issues). Maybe interface with something dirt-common, like RS-232C. > Of course, this would push the price of a basic unit up pretty high. If you don't mind it being rather bulky, . . . just start with an old AT. Put in a lot of RAM (up to 16M on 286 or 386SX), a catweasel, a serial port, and some relatively trivial software. The catweasel is the only part that will cost more than a burger. From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Oct 19 15:13:10 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:13:10 -0700 Subject: dec /34a issue In-Reply-To: <001a01c6f3b5$96741d20$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <001a01c6f3b5$96741d20$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: Jay, At 2:34 PM -0500 10/19/06, Jay West wrote: >420 420 >422 177355 >424 177353 >426 177351 >430 177347 > >So it looks to me like it is able to store 420 in 420, but nothing >after that. I would normally think there is a problem with the >memory board (M7891). However, I have replaced that board with 2 >others, and all 3 boards fail at the same address AND with the same >values. I find that likely to rule out the memory board as really >being bad. In addition, I can deposit and examine values to >locations 420 through 430 via the front panel just fine. I imagine that's just a small sample showing the results from 420 on. How far into memory have you looked? It is certainly painful to step all the way through however much you have (which model M7891?) but more samples may be necessary. Are you certain the backplane is wired correctly? In particular, that slot? John From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Oct 19 15:18:25 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:18:25 -0700 Subject: dec /34a issue In-Reply-To: <4537D5D1.2090602@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <001a01c6f3b5$96741d20$6700a8c0@BILLING> <4537D5D1.2090602@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <4537DD91.5070604@mindspring.com> Jay you mention below 'The memory address test program fails though.' Which memory address test program are you referring to? The M9312? The M9312 11/34 console emulator has a simple memory diagnostic that scans the low 28KW, writes the address of each word to the word, and then rescans, negating each word value in memory. It then adds the address to the negated word, and halts if the result is not zero. Successful test execution results in all of memory being cleared. Normally this test will only be run when you try and boot from some device in your system. See the console listing at: http://www.AK6DN.com/PDP-11/M9312/ under the 'M9312 11/04,34 Diagnostic Console' listing. If you have the capability to program an M9312 boot PROM I generated an image for a pseudo-device 'ZZ' that does nothing but run all the internal M9312 diagnostics forever (processor and memory). I've found it very useful in situations like this. joe heck wrote: > Well, I don't have the listing in front of me, but perhaps there are > multiple passes through the memory test. Maybe it wrote out all the > inverted numbers fine on the first pass, then when it tried to write > the real numbers it failed (or vice versa). That way it will test all > the bits, although not adjacent bit stickiness. So, maybe try to > write the inverted number to 420? > > Just my quick thoughts. > > Joe Heck > > Jay West wrote: > >> I just brought up my /34a and apparently it's sick. It has one >> DD11-PK. Configuration is as follows: >> >> 1 - M8266 (A-F) >> 2 - M8265 (A-F) >> 3 - M9312 (A-B), M7859 (C-F) >> 4 - M7891 (A-F) >> 5 - Grant (D) >> 6 - Grant (D) >> 7 - Grant (D) >> 8 - Grant (D) >> 9 - M9302 (A-B), Grant (D) >> >> What works: >> Storing & retreiving various patterns from ram via the front panel >> works fine in all cases. >> Looping on CLR PC loops as expected >> Looping on BR . loops as expected >> Trap catcher works (first pass halts at 1030 filling ram, then a BR . >> loops as expected). >> >> The memory address test program fails though. It halts at 246 >> indicating a memory addressing error. R1 points to 422. Examining >> memory via the front panel shows the following: >> >> 420 420 >> 422 177355 >> 424 177353 >> 426 177351 >> 430 177347 >> >> So it looks to me like it is able to store 420 in 420, but nothing >> after that. I would normally think there is a problem with the memory >> board (M7891). However, I have replaced that board with 2 others, and >> all 3 boards fail at the same address AND with the same values. I >> find that likely to rule out the memory board as really being bad. In >> addition, I can deposit and examine values to locations 420 through >> 430 via the front panel just fine. It's my understanding that the >> KY11-LB puts data in memory via the unibus, so I would think this >> makes it somewhat unlikely to be a backplane issue. Is it a strong >> likelyhood that the problem is the cpu set itself then, as that's >> what would be writing the values to memory during the address test? >> >> And as I type this, I just noticed something interesting. The numbers >> stored in ram at 422 through 430 are the right numbers, just inverted >> logic. More specifically if you invert all the bits in 177355 you get >> 422, if you invert all the bits in 177353 you get 424, inverting >> 177351 gives 426 (all the latter values being what I'd expect). I'm >> guessing there's a dead inverter on the cpu set somewhere perhaps? >> But if that's the case, why does 420 get set to 420 correctly?? >> >> Any advice is most appreciated :) >> >> Jay West > > From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Oct 19 15:19:53 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:19:53 -0700 Subject: vax/vms file archival ideas and suggestions In-Reply-To: <4537D8E4.8050203@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <4537D8E4.8050203@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: Joe, At 3:58 PM -0400 10/19/06, Joe Heck wrote: >Hi all, > I must be missing something, but I have not found a good way to >preserve a bunch of vax/vms files. I've looked at VMSZip, Gzip, VMSTar, >etc, and I must be missing something. Do you need to preserve them as individual files or would tape images suffice? If tape images are OK, use an appropriate program to create .tap files from the tapes themselves. This allows easy (later) recreation of the tapes as well as use within the various simulators. If on the other hand the files are more important (than being able to recreate the tape exactly), unloading into separate directories is fine. Then create a backup image of the whole directory structure and archive the saveset. If space is an issue, gzip the saveset. Just how I would likely approach it. Good luck, John From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Oct 19 14:24:49 2006 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:24:49 -0400 Subject: vax/vms file archival ideas and suggestions Message-ID: <4537D101.6010303@splab.cas.neu.edu> Hi all, I must be missing something, but I have not found a good way to preserve a bunch of vax/vms files. I've looked at VMSZip, Gzip, VMSTar, etc, and I must be missing something. Here is what I am trying to do: Before my vax finally dies, I want to take the hundred or so TK50s I have and restore them to the hard drive and then move them to PC-land for long term storage. This is halfway done with the tapes that are easily readable. I now have a bunch of directories, one for each tape, with files in them on the VAX. So the tree is only two levels deep on the vax. The files are pretty mixed: backup files, savesets, distributions, text files, etc. Right now the files amount to about 2Gb. Now, the environment is: VAX 3100-30 with SCSI external. THis is where I hooked up the TK70 (TZ30?) to read the tapes. I have network access and can get to it via FTP and TELNET from elsewhere, namely my PC. I also have a bunch of different SCSI tape drives, 8mm, 4mm, 9 track, etc. So, I could transfer all the files if I could containerize (zip) them. Do I try to Zip them somehow (what program) and FTP them, or do I just write them to duplicate disks/tapes and throw them on a shelf, hoping I have a machine to read them in the future? I'm usually pretty good with this stuff, having been around the VMS world for a few decades, but I just have this memory block, or the blinders are on. Any suggestions? Thanks Joe Heck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 19 15:28:03 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:28:03 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <453774B4.25279.812F7FE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <45374BEB.12786.773A036@cclist.sydex.com>, <4537CF03.1000500@yahoo.co.uk> <453774B4.25279.812F7FE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Oct 2006 at 14:16, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I don't think you necessarily need anything like that much; I remember Dave >> Dunfield and I discussing this a while back and it worked out at something >> like a couple of hundred KB I'm sure. > > If you're going track-by-track, probably a couple hundred K is more > than enough. But holding a complete 8" DSHD image runs to something > like 6MB if you hang onto the whole histogram. > > I think you'd definitely want to have enough storage to hold a > complete image--it'd make copying much simpler, no? I don't see what it would gain you, though. You've still got the same amount of data to transfer between host and device - and I bet someone can come up with a situation where they'd want to just read or write a single track rather than an entire image, which makes transferring an entire image wasteful (particularly at RS232 speeds!) Maybe someone can think of a situation where you *need* more than one track in memory at once, though. (Note I'm not thinking at all about storage formats which aren't track-based though) > Besides, a few megabytes of RAM is nothing nowadays. DRAM, no. In that sort of situation providing a SIMM / DIMM socket would seem the best bet and people can populate it with whatever memory they have to hand. There is the refresh issue then, though. >> I don't know, what's a couple of hundred KB of memory, a CPU (say a Z80 for >> sake of argument), a bit of ROM, and a serial interface chip, plus a bit of >> glue logic? > > Probably use something a bit more common, say an ARM? Possibly, depending on cost. I'd hope that something could typically be lashed together (parts cost only) for about 20 bucks, though using a combination of purchased bits and things from the parts bin [1]. Beyond that and it's sort of into catweasel territory (albeit with the convenience of an external device). [1] 8 bit CPUs, SRAM from old PC motherboards, SIO chips, RS232 connectors, cables, old SIMMs, old DIMMs etc. are all easily available for free. For a design based around one of the common old 8-bit CPUs (say Z80 or 6502) the main parts cost is probably the PCB itself. > Not that I have anything against a Z80 (or Z180, or EZ80). Just that extra > horsepower can be very nice, even if you don't need it right away. Actually, a sister project (in a way) would be to oversample the raw data stream from the drive heads in an attempt to read disks that otherwise appeared dead, with software then doing the analysis of the waveform. I know Dave has more than a few thoughts on that subject - and that does need a lot more RAM and CPU horsepower to do. For a 'simple' track-based design though I'd think that CPU choice comes pretty much down to cost only, plus concerns about the average user's ability to program the system with the necessary code after construction. (For example, I can burn EPROMs. I could probably figure out how to program a PIC. I would have absolutely no idea what to do with an FPGA, let alone be able to contribute anything to the design :) From the point of view of the host machine, the set of operations needed isn't complex - something like 'assign parameters', 'read track', 'write track', 'get error information', 'format track', 'seek', and possibly something like 'download firmware'. It shouldn't actually be a complex device - but it is best left to someone who has experience of building SBC-like devices :-) Transfer speed is a huge headache - 200KB or whatever at RS232 speeds is painful. Repeat for 160 tracks and it becomes rather annoying! (It suggests that some sort of simple compression scheme is needed) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 19 15:35:18 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:35:18 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <20061019130951.S2835@shell.lmi.net> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <200610182010540287.047F5514@10.0.0.252>, <45379588.3020703@yahoo.co.uk> <45374BEB.12786.773A036@cclist.sydex.com> <20061019130951.S2835@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4537E186.9020607@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 19 Oct 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> If you're thinking about a Catweasel-type external box, then I'd put >> lots of memory (10 MB or more) and some programmable intelligence in >> it (so the "nuts and bolts" isn't subject to OS platform-related >> issues). Maybe interface with something dirt-common, like RS-232C. >> Of course, this would push the price of a basic unit up pretty high. > > If you don't mind it being rather bulky, . . . > just start with an old AT. Put in a lot of RAM (up to 16M on 286 or > 386SX), a catweasel, a serial port, and some relatively trivial software. > The catweasel is the only part that will cost more than a burger. That's actually exactly where I was heading with design of such a box of tricks for our museum. I don't want the hassle of a hard disk in there, though - but even if I can't figure out how to graft my own boot ROM into the thing, booting from a CF card on an IDE channel would probably do the job (I bought a CF-IDE adapter a couple of months ago with just such a purpose in mind) The other benefit would be that that same box could likely support other classes of device other than floppies which used interfaces like SCSI and IDE. My main headache is with catweasel drivers, though - the use of a CF card probably rules out Windows (which doesn't lend itself to a headless box anyway), but catweasel support software for non-Windows OSes looked to be pretty thin on the ground. cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 19 15:38:15 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:38:15 -0500 Subject: dec /34a issue (more info) References: <001a01c6f3b5$96741d20$6700a8c0@BILLING><4537D5D1.2090602@splab.cas.neu.edu> <4537DD91.5070604@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <003d01c6f3be$819e7860$6700a8c0@BILLING> I did test those locations (420-430) and I can read/write the "normal" values as well as the complemented values VIA the front panel. It's also not "any data written by the processor is complemented" because the trap catcher program does write the correct data to locations 0-770. I'm certain I'm typing in the memory address test correctly. I have no other -11 handy. Is it possible there's a typo in the program I got? It follows: 000004 000226 bus error trap 000006 000000 000010 000012 reserved instruction trap 000012 000000 000200 012706 mov #410,sp set the stack 000202 000410 000204 012700 mov #420,r0 set target memory address 000206 000420 000210 010001 mov r0, r1 copy memory address 000212 010111 loop1: mov r1, (r1) write memory 000214 020111 cmp r1, (r1) check write 000216 001401 beq .+2 OK 000220 000000 halt initial check error 000222 005121 com (r1)+ complement the data 000224 000772 br loop1 loop till bus error 000226 012737 mov #6,@#4 reload trap vector 000230 000006 000232 000004 000234 010001 mov r0,r1 copy memory address 000236 005111 loop2: com (r1) complement memory 000240 020111 cmp r1,(r1) recheck memory 000242 001401 beq .+2 OK 000244 000000 halt memory addressing error 000246 005721 tst (r1)+ increment memory address 000250 000773 br loop2 When I enter and run the above program, it halts at 246. R1 contains 422. In going back after this halt, the program at 200 is unchanged and just as entered. However, location 4 contains a 6, not a 226. Puzzled.... J From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 19 15:39:59 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:39:59 -0700 Subject: vax/vms file archival ideas and suggestions Message-ID: I want to take the hundred or so TK50s I have and restore them to the hard drive -- I would suggest leaving them as blocked tape images and save them uncompressed. If the tapes read without errors, you can deal with them in the future using an emulator or using file extraction programs on whatever system you eventually deal with them on. Tapes with errors are more difficult. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 19 15:44:29 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:44:29 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <200610192013.k9JKD97U004672@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <4537CF03.1000500@yahoo.co.uk> <200610192013.k9JKD97U004672@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4537E3AD.8020500@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Probably use something a bit more common, say an ARM? Not that I >> have anything against a Z80 (or Z180, or EZ80). Just that extra >> horsepower can be very nice, even if you don't need it right away. > > If you are willing to go to an ARM, then I would put on say 16M and > have lots of room for a complete image - an ethernet inferface would > also be easy (built into many ARM devices), and would allow fast > transfer of images. Ethernet seems ideal - high-speed and flexible. What I'm not sure of is how such a box would get configured with its IP address, nor once it was configured how it would be found on the network by a controlling system application somewhere. Maybe DHCP solves half that problem; can a device broadcast on the network and find a DHCP server without being told of its IP address in advance? Even assuming it can, and the DHCP server assigns it an IP address, I'm not sure how client controlling machines would then locate it on the network, though. Doubtless both questions are easily answered by a trained network admin, though :-) Last thing we probably need though is something that relies on DHCP, or on any particular flavour of OS being present on any machine on the network. [All of this is on-topic enough, but is it of interest to the majority? Or is it something better taken to a mailing list for those interested that's set up with the specific aim of bashing out some ideas and hopefully getting something closer to realisation?] cheers Jules From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Oct 19 15:50:47 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 21:50:47 +0100 Subject: vax/vms file archival ideas and suggestions In-Reply-To: <4537D8E4.8050203@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <000401c6f3c0$42595920$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Joe Heck wrote: > Do I try to Zip them somehow (what program) and FTP them, or do I just > write them to duplicate disks/tapes and throw them on a shelf, hoping > I have a machine to read them in the future? > > I'm usually pretty good with this stuff, having been around the VMS > world for a few decades, but I just have this memory block, or the > blinders are on. The way to save OpenVMS data and guarantee being able to restore it in the future (assuming access to OpenVMS ... ) is as a backup saveset. So if your tapes are OpenVMS software distributions then copy the savesets from each tape into a directory per tape (with an appropriate directory name and maybe a README.TXT describing the tape, part number etc.). If the data is stuff you have created yourself then I would get it into BACKUP format. That way all the attributes are sure to be preserved. If it is a bootable tape then you can certainly copy off the savesets but you will lose the ability to boot the recreated tape. So here you need a tape imaging program. Now you have a set of raw data to play with. I would now use LDDRIVER to create a 650(ish)MB LD disk and then copy the data onto that. Dismount the disk, FTP the container file (in binary mode) to somewhere with a CD writer and burn to CD in "image" format. I've done this with Nero before now, but I don't remember the exact details. The way you know you have it right is to take the CD and mount it on any OpenVMS box. Then run ANALYZE/DISK against it and also BACKUP/COMPARE against the original. The final result is an ISO9660 CD that VMS will be able to mount natively (with all protection attributes etc. preserved). Burn everything twice: CDs are cheap and your time probably is not). If I were doing this now I'd probably burn the images (as files) to DVDs ... less to store ... and only then burn individual CDs for the things I really wanted to access under VMS right now. Once you get into the swing of things, you'll find that the most time consuming part is amassing the data ready to write. In which case you might wish to unpack the BACKUP savesets, ZIP up the various trees and FTP the zip files over to be burnt as ordinary ISO9660 files. This is obviously only really applicable where the files make sense off-VMS. Obviously the savesets that make up say OpenVMS V7.1 VAX are not going to be of much use anywhere other than on an OpenVMS box. If you have data that makes sense both under VMS and elsewhere, you can burn a hybrid ISO9660/ODS-2 CD where the data is stored once but available under both "personalities". This takes a little more effort and an Alpha. It really only makes sense for common-format binaries (e.g. PDF) and text (e.g. HTML). I did this a few years ago for some manuals and such that I wanted to access both on an Alpha and a PC. As you'll now have a bunch of disk images lying around on a PC, you could fire up SIMH VAX (with VMS) and mount them to check them out there too. This way you can get at your data even after you've forgotten where your uVAX 3100 has been stored. Antonio From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Oct 19 16:04:35 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:04:35 -0400 Subject: dec /34a issue (more info) In-Reply-To: <003d01c6f3be$819e7860$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <001a01c6f3b5$96741d20$6700a8c0@BILLING> <4537DD91.5070604@mindspring.com> <003d01c6f3be$819e7860$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200610191704.35251.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 19 October 2006 16:38, Jay West wrote: > I did test those locations (420-430) and I can read/write the > "normal" values as well as the complemented values VIA the front > panel. > > It's also not "any data written by the processor is complemented" > because the trap catcher program does write the correct data to > locations 0-770. > > I'm certain I'm typing in the memory address test correctly. I have > no other -11 handy. Is it possible there's a typo in the program I > got? It follows: > When I enter and run the above program, it halts at 246. R1 contains > 422. In going back after this halt, the program at 200 is unchanged > and just as entered. However, location 4 contains a 6, not a 226. > > Puzzled.... If it makes you feel any better, simh gives the same results. So, there's something wrong with the program you have, not your machine. :) Stepping through it, I catch the error: 000250 000773 br loop2 That actually branches back to the instruction *after* loop2. You should instead have 000250 000771 br loop2 That works as expected... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Oct 19 17:15:11 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:15:11 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <4537E3AD.8020500@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200610192013.k9JKD97U004672@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200610192107.k9JL790N013213@hosting.monisys.ca> > > If you are willing to go to an ARM, then I would put on say 16M and > > have lots of room for a complete image - an ethernet inferface would > > also be easy (built into many ARM devices), and would allow fast > > transfer of images. > > Ethernet seems ideal - high-speed and flexible. What I'm not sure of is how > such a box would get configured with its IP address, nor once it was > configured how it would be found on the network by a controlling system > application somewhere. I didn't say IP - however you could do that if you want the complexity... Ethernet is simple and reliable, and easy to work with on a target from DOS or Linix ... I don't see why you would need to use a routable protocol, at least for me the local network is fine. > Maybe DHCP solves half that problem; can a device broadcast on the network and > find a DHCP server without being told of its IP address in advance? Even > assuming it can, and the DHCP server assigns it an IP address, I'm not sure > how client controlling machines would then locate it on the network, though. > Doubtless both questions are easily answered by a trained network admin, > though :-) > > Last thing we probably need though is something that relies on DHCP, or on any > particular flavour of OS being present on any machine on the network. All solvable problems, however in my experience, the IP stack will add as much complexity to your embedded device (or more) than the disk drive interface. Why does it have to be RS-232 or IP - does nobody remember plain simple ethernet anymore? (almost as simple as RS-232 - way faster). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Oct 19 16:10:01 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:10:01 -0400 Subject: dec /34a issue (more info) In-Reply-To: <200610191704.35251.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <001a01c6f3b5$96741d20$6700a8c0@BILLING> <003d01c6f3be$819e7860$6700a8c0@BILLING> <200610191704.35251.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200610191710.01965.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 19 October 2006 17:04, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > That actually branches back to the instruction *after* loop2. You > should instead have > > 000250 000771 br loop2 Crap. I should have checked the result first.... that should be: 000250 000772 br loop2 otherwise you branch back to where r1 gets reset to 420, and the memory test fails (gee I wonder why:). Also, you should halt with PC set to 10, when it's all done. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Oct 19 17:18:33 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:18:33 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk> References: <453774B4.25279.812F7FE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200610192110.k9JLAUbb013768@hosting.monisys.ca> > > I think you'd definitely want to have enough storage to hold a > > complete image--it'd make copying much simpler, no? > > I don't see what it would gain you, though. You've still got the same amount > of data to transfer between host and device - and I bet someone can come up > with a situation where they'd want to just read or write a single track rather > than an entire image, which makes transferring an entire image wasteful > (particularly at RS232 speeds!) > > Maybe someone can think of a situation where you *need* more than one track in > memory at once, though. (Note I'm not thinking at all about storage formats > which aren't track-based though) If you buffer a track at a time, then you need to start/stop the drive while you wait for the data to transfer to the PC (esp. RS-232) - Buffering an image at a time would allow you to read the whole disk while the data is dribbling out - I would still logically do it track by track however - you may need to reanalyze as track formats change etc. > > Besides, a few megabytes of RAM is nothing nowadays. > > DRAM, no. In that sort of situation providing a SIMM / DIMM socket would seem > the best bet and people can populate it with whatever memory they have to > hand. There is the refresh issue then, though. I've been using some CIRRUS ARM based CPUs lately, and the DRAM interface is very simple - reflresh etc. is all done transparently by the DRAM controller. If you go ARM, no reason not to put on a pile of DRAM. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From legalize at xmission.com Thu Oct 19 16:13:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:13:50 -0600 Subject: vax/vms file archival ideas and suggestions In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:19:53 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "John A. Dundas III" writes: > If on the other hand the files are more important (than being able to > recreate the tape exactly), [...] What would require an exact tape image, as opposed to files and their contents? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Oct 19 16:23:10 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:23:10 -0400 Subject: vax/vms file archival ideas and suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200610191723.10196.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 19 October 2006 17:13, Richard wrote: > In article , > > "John A. Dundas III" writes: > > If on the other hand the files are more important (than being able > > to recreate the tape exactly), [...] > > What would require an exact tape image, as opposed to files and their > contents? Booting an OS tape is one instance.... There are plenty more, for example when the block (record) size of the tape is significant for delimiting different parts of data. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ohh at drizzle.com Thu Oct 19 16:23:28 2006 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 14:23:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dec /34a issue (more info) In-Reply-To: <003d01c6f3be$819e7860$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: Boy, I wish I knew PDP-11 assembler better. Someday. :) Jay West wrote: > I'm certain I'm typing in the memory address test correctly. I have no > other -11 handy. Is it possible there's a typo in the program I got? It > follows: [...] > 000236 005111 loop2: com (r1) complement memory [...] > 000250 000773 br loop2 Er, is "br loop2" numerically correct here? It, er, smells wrong. :) -O.- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 19 16:46:38 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 16:46:38 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <200610192107.k9JL790N013213@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200610192013.k9JKD97U004672@hosting.monisys.ca> <200610192107.k9JL790N013213@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4537F23E.8080800@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Why does it have to be RS-232 or IP - does nobody remember plain simple > ethernet anymore? (almost as simple as RS-232 - way faster). A fair point. Wonder what the complexity is like at the 'client' end for the most common OSes though? DOS I imagine is easy because you can pretty much do what you want - but I wonder how hard it is to talk raw Ethernet from user-space applications for OSes like Linux and Windows? Agreed that a full IP stack is a pain for an embedded device (I believe Phil Blundell's done some work with IP stacks and ARM devices, though). For something built from an off-the-shelf redundant PC though it'd be easy, with the exceptions of how to do the IP address assignment / discovery. (For a data recovery type of scenario, I expect several different drive types will be needed anyway - so the bulk of a PC PSU / motherboard / case is hardly an issue!) cheers Jules From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Oct 19 16:56:56 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:56:56 -0400 Subject: OT: Good deal on knockout punch set In-Reply-To: <45377881.31967.821CDEA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45377881.31967.821CDEA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/19/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > (For list members in the USA only) > > We were talking about panel work a little while ago and use of > punches for larger holes (like the Greenlee punches). > > Today I note that in my email I have a coupon from Harbor Freight > Tools for their knockout punch set: > > http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid= > 91201 It happens that I am also active at the diyaudio forum. I had bad experience with those punchs and I started a thread there, http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83528 vax, 9000 > $11.99 with coupon, good at any HF retail store. If you'd like said > coupon, drop me an email off-line and I'll forward it to you. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 18 22:52:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 04:52:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: wavy diagonal lines In-Reply-To: <20061019035343.71948.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Oct 18, 6 08:53:43 pm Message-ID: > > across the screen. Specifically a trs80 model 4. Is > this indicative of a video circuitry problem or a > display problem? To me it sounds like a fault on the monitor PCB, which is mounted on the side of the top cover in these machines. On the top left corner of the CPU board (with the machine in the normal operating position), there's a connector with 3 screend cables going to it. One is Hsync, one is VSync, the last is video (no syncs, not composite). You could looks to see if at least the syncs look reasonable there. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 18 22:56:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 04:56:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: 3.5" disk storage In-Reply-To: <45379876.1030202@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 19, 6 10:23:34 am Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I justified buying a new router table for building it. > > That is, of course, the most important bit :-) Is this like the time I justified spending several Grand on an engineer's lathe in order to repair a photocopier that had cost about \pounds 150? Well, I'd wanted a lathe for some time, and it does have a lot of other uses :-) -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 19 17:05:54 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vax/vms file archival ideas and suggestions In-Reply-To: <4537D101.6010303@splab.cas.neu.edu> from "joe heck" at Oct 19, 2006 03:24:49 PM Message-ID: <200610192205.k9JM5txr008605@onyx.spiritone.com> For software distribution tapes, I'd recommend VMSTPC, and make tape images. For data, it becomes a bit more interesting, but I'd still recommend making images with VMSTPC, and you'll most likely also want to take a look at the lddriver suggestion and make your own CD's. The question really becomes in what form do you want to access this data in the future. If you make TPC images of the tapes, you can then either copy them back to tapes at some point in the future, or use one of the SIMH tools to turn it into a SIMH TAP file. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 19 17:07:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:07:34 -0700 Subject: OT: Good deal on knockout punch set In-Reply-To: References: <45377881.31967.821CDEA@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <453794B6.24689.88FFE18@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Oct 2006 at 17:56, 9000 VAX wrote: > It happens that I am also active at the diyaudio forum. I had bad experience > with those punchs and I started a thread there, > http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83528 I can't vouch for them, I just noted the coupon and remembered the tiie-in. I've got a set of Greenlees that's perhaps 40 years old and works just fine. Maybe these'd be okay with aluminum or very mild steel. Sigh. Probably the same Chinese boron steel that makes bolts snap off if you look at 'em sideways. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 19 20:05:29 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 20:05:29 -0500 Subject: dec /34a issue (Solved) References: Message-ID: <00f801c6f3e5$7f70ff50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> O. Sharp wrote.... > Boy, I wish I knew PDP-11 assembler better. Someday. :) Yes, I do wish I knew it better. Then I may have caught the problem myself ;) >> I'm certain I'm typing in the memory address test correctly. And just to be precise, I was typing the program correctly. The website I copied it from has it posted incorrectly. I'll email the person who runs the website to make a correction. > Er, is "br loop2" numerically correct here? It, er, smells wrong. :) I wouldn't have likely caught that. Patrick was right - thanks! It does in fact pass the test. Now that I've got enough confidence in the machine being somewhat functional, I'm gonna grab an RL02 and see if I can boot :) Thanks for all the input folks! Jay From dundas at caltech.edu Thu Oct 19 17:19:14 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:19:14 -0700 Subject: vax/vms file archival ideas and suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:13 PM -0600 10/19/06, Richard wrote: >In article , > "John A. Dundas III" writes: > >> If on the other hand the files are more important (than being able to >> recreate the tape exactly), [...] > >What would require an exact tape image, as opposed to files and their >contents? Tapes where retention of attributes, block sizes, placement, etc., are just as important as (maybe more so than) the file contents. Two things come to mind: 1) a simulator (SIMH, Charon, etc.) where you wanted to work with a (virtual) tape device. Pat mentioned booting an OS tape; absolutely. 2) the ability to recreate the tape (either on the same media, TK50 I think was this case, or other media 9-track, TK70, etc.). If I copy files from tape to disk, I lose all blocking information (there might be different block sizes on the tape for different files). I won't be able to recreate the tape from the files themselves without additional meta information. Boot tapes often (sometimes?) contain boot data/code outside of recognizable file headers or marks on the tape. I believe the early PDP-11 tapes were this way. I can tell you that later PDP-11 (RSTS) tapes are multi-format, i.e., the first few (maybe dozen) files are DOS-11 format, including the boot file, then the rest of the tape is written in ANSI format. IIRC, DEC's Unix-11 V7m contained boot information at the front of the tape, then several tar images separated by tape marks on the remainder. A tape image is able to capture this sort of information in addition to the file data itself. John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 19 20:35:17 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:35:17 +1300 Subject: What's the easiest way to test unmarked crystals? Message-ID: I have a small handful of crystals and was wondering what the easiest way to divine their frequencies... I can say that I'm reasonably certain that all of them are between 32.768Khz and 50MHz, but some are blank, and some have non-obvious cryptic markings. What I'm looking for is some simple way to get them to oscillate and measure them with a frequency counter (i.e. - assume one is starting with a working, trustable frequency counter). Is it as simple as a pair of inverters/NANDs in the classic crystal loop, or is that circuit massively frequency dependent (i.e. - works for 1Mhz-10Mhz, not faster or slower...)? Thanks for any suggestions. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 19 20:35:13 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 20:35:13 -0500 Subject: M9312 boot rom offer Message-ID: <010601c6f3e7$fd208680$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I'm going to be burning some M9312 boot roms within the next few days, as I find myself short on the ones I want. If anyone wants a particular image, let me know and I'll do it for my cost of the chip, plus $2.00 to get me a rallyburger, plus postage :) I have just a few blanks on hand, so if more than just a few people want roms I'll have to place an order and it'll take a week or so. I don't mind doing that if need be. Off-list please... Jay West From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Oct 19 22:00:15 2006 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 23:00:15 -0400 Subject: vax/vms file archival ideas and suggestions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45383BBF.6080709@splab.cas.neu.edu> Thanks, everybody for your great ideas. Of course I should have remembered some of them, but the grey matter gets leakier every day. 90 percent of the information is either already backup savesets or plain data, so I'll take the suggestions about moving it appropriately. The last ten percent are indeed bootable tapes or images I want to keep as tape images, so the VMSTPC and SIMH stuff is the way to go. Yes, I'll probably want to at least access them from an emulator or simulator on a PC, and just perhaps use them again on a VAX, but for now, I just want to store them in a way I can recover them. The idea about using LDDRIVER (I have VDDRIVER) is also excellent. Joe Heck From james.rice at gmail.com Thu Oct 19 17:42:39 2006 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:42:39 -0500 Subject: OT: Good deal on knockout punch set In-Reply-To: <453794B6.24689.88FFE18@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45377881.31967.821CDEA@cclist.sydex.com> <453794B6.24689.88FFE18@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/19/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Oct 2006 at 17:56, 9000 VAX wrote: > > > It happens that I am also active at the diyaudio forum. I had bad experience > > with those punchs and I started a thread there, > > http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83528 > > I can't vouch for them, I just noted the coupon and remembered the > tiie-in. I've got a set of Greenlees that's perhaps 40 years old and > works just fine. > > Maybe these'd be okay with aluminum or very mild steel. Sigh. > Probably the same Chinese boron steel that makes bolts snap off if > you look at 'em sideways. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > I was an electrician for 27 years. Greenlee makes good punches but even those can be broken and have the threads stripped. For what I need at this momoent, the cheap ones will punch the two or three holes a year I need. If I need more, I'll invest in a new Greenlee hydraulic SlugSplitter set. I've always regretted selling mine after I quit the business. -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Oct 19 18:06:21 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:06:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Oct 2006, Barry Watzman wrote: > Don't know if any of you saw this, but a 5.25" floppy disk drive just > went for $192 on E-Bay tonight (Wed., 10/18). > > It was a "backpack" external parallel port drive, New Old Stock in Box, > still shrink wrapped. I missed that one, but I guess its time for me to pull my used backpack drives out of storage... I actually can get to them right now since I'm cleaning out and sorting stuff anyway :P The NOS TRS-80 cables I packratted away for decades are doing well on eBay since I re-unearthed them again too. -Toth From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Oct 19 21:48:38 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 21:48:38 -0500 Subject: M9312 boot rom offer Message-ID: <012001c6f3f2$3f669340$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I'm going to be burning some M9312 boot roms within the next few days, as I find myself short on the ones I want. If anyone wants a particular image, let me know and I'll do it for my cost of the chip, plus $2.00 to get me a rallyburger, plus postage :) I have just a few blanks on hand, so if more than just a few people want roms I'll have to place an order and it'll take a week or so. I don't mind doing that if need be. Off-list please... Jay West From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 19 17:24:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:24:28 -0700 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <453774B4.25279.812F7FE@cclist.sydex.com>, <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <453798AC.31377.89F7742@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Oct 2006 at 15:28, Jules Richardson wrote: > I don't see what it would gain you, though. You've still got the same amount > of data to transfer between host and device - and I bet someone can come up > with a situation where they'd want to just read or write a single track rather > than an entire image, which makes transferring an entire image wasteful > (particularly at RS232 speeds!) I didn't say that transfers should be whole-image; just that the read operation should be capable of transferring a whole image at a time. Here's why. Suppose the track image of a CW contains HD MFM data--worst-case, you'll have something like 100K flux transitions to record. That's 100K bytes per track. Assuming you use 115K for your serial transfer link, that's 10 bits per byte (8N1) or about 11K bytes per second, so you can transfer the aforementioned track in 9 seconds, roughly. 160 tracks amounts to 24 minutes. That's more time than I want to have the heads loaded and motor spinning with some aging floppy that's barely hanging on to its oxide. Granted, these are back-of-the-envelope calculations, but you get the general idea. When I work with floppies here, I usually read them at most one-and-a- half times. I then spend my head-scratching hours looking at the image, not the original. So, if the aforementioned hypothetical box can simply suck up an entire disk at full drive speed, so much the better for everyone. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 19 17:25:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:25:49 -0700 Subject: 3.5" disk storage In-Reply-To: References: <45379876.1030202@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 19, 6 10:23:34 am, Message-ID: <453798FD.10049.8A0B3BA@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Oct 2006 at 4:56, Tony Duell wrote: > Is this like the time I justified spending several Grand on an > engineer's lathe in order to repair a photocopier that had cost about > \pounds 150? Ah, then you understand! :) Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Oct 19 22:59:24 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 20:59:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 3.5" disk storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Oct 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > Is this like the time I justified spending several Grand on an > engineer's lathe in order to repair a photocopier that had cost about > \pounds 150? > > Well, I'd wanted a lathe for some time, and it does have a lot of other > uses :-) Yeah, you can emulate the Mythbusters by chucking things like 2-liter soda bottles or salami in the lathe. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 19 17:58:53 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:58:53 +1300 Subject: SBC-6120 (was Re: Help about am2901) Message-ID: On 10/20/06, woodelf wrote: > woodelf wrote: > > Well tommorow I plan to test my SCB6120 so I hope the magic smoke stays > > inside as I just finished soldering in the sockets. Tommorow a PDP-8 > > lives < sound effects > Evil laugher , thunder bolts < / sound effects > > > > A bolt of lightning strikes the 6402 ... > Ok I installed it backwards, but I had a spare in my junk box. Oops! At least it's a common chip. > I pull the power switch ... A bat flies by ... It *lives* . Nicely done. > Now I just have to run over to the local computer store a > IDE cable and adapter for a laptop drive and mounting hardware. I have a Mesa-brand CF adapter on mine (and a stack of sub-32MB CF cards). One caveat - it's been discussed on alt.sys.pdp8, but one of the commonly-available games disk image with ADVENT on it has a corrupt FRTS.SV. You'll need a good copy of that to get Colossal Cave working. (thread on alt.sys.pdp8 - http://www.gatago.com/alt/sys/pdp8/21898642.html ) Spare Time Gizmos ADVENT page http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/SBC6120_Adventure.htm In any case, congrats on the new 12-bitter. -ethan From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Oct 19 18:24:20 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:24:20 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <200610192013.k9JKD97U004672@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <4537CF03.1000500@yahoo.co.uk> <200610192013.k9JKD97U004672@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <45380924.1000600@mdrconsult.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Probably use something a bit more common, say an ARM? Not that I >> have anything against a Z80 (or Z180, or EZ80). Just that extra >> horsepower can be very nice, even if you don't need it right away. > > If you are willing to go to an ARM, then I would put on say 16M and > have lots of room for a complete image - an ethernet inferface would > also be easy (built into many ARM devices), and would allow fast > transfer of images. Can we add a LEG later on? OK, OK! I'm getting my hat. Doc From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Oct 19 20:42:38 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 20:42:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: DEC H8571-J MMJ adapters? Message-ID: I've had a hard time finding inexpensive H8571-J equivalent adapters, but I have a huge box of surplus DE9-F to 6-conductor RJ11 adapter kits. I was planning to make up a batch of H8571-J equivalent adapters out of these and some RJ11 to MMJ cords and wondered if anyone else out there could use some? Based on what I've seen on eBay, I suspect I could sell some there, but I wasn't sure if there would be any demand from classiccmp folks as well. I could also wire up some H8571-B equivalent adapters if there is any interest in those as well. Those would actually be simpler to make than the H8571-J. I personally don't need any more H8571-B adapters as I have plenty for the few MicroVAX systems that I have, but they aren't always easy to find. -Toth From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Oct 19 23:11:44 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 21:11:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SBC-6120 (was Re: Help about am2901) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/20/06, woodelf wrote: > > woodelf wrote: > > > Well tommorow I plan to test my SCB6120 so I hope the magic smoke stays > > > inside as I just finished soldering in the sockets. Tommorow a PDP-8 > > > lives < sound effects > Evil laugher , thunder bolts < / sound effects > > > > > > A bolt of lightning strikes the 6402 ... > > Ok I installed it backwards, but I had a spare in my junk box. > > Oops! At least it's a common chip. Speaking of the SBC6120, the front panel PCBs have come back from the fabber. Somehow we got three more than were ordered. So, if someone wants a board and switches (sorry, no panel), I'm taking orders -- first come first served. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Oct 19 19:14:56 2006 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 01:14:56 +0100 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <45374BEB.12786.773A036@cclist.sydex.com>, <4537CF03.1000500@yahoo.co.uk> <453774B4.25279.812F7FE@cclist.sydex.com> <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45381500.903@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Maybe someone can think of a situation where you *need* more than one > track in memory at once, though. (Note I'm not thinking at all about > storage formats which aren't track-based though) Disc-to-disc imaging? > DRAM, no. In that sort of situation providing a SIMM / DIMM socket would > seem the best bet and people can populate it with whatever memory they > have to hand. There is the refresh issue then, though. Use a CPLD and one of the many free SDRAM-to-SRAM-interface Verilog/VDL models - for example. > Possibly, depending on cost. I'd hope that something could typically be > lashed together (parts cost only) for about 20 bucks, though using a > combination of purchased bits and things from the parts bin [1]. Beyond > that and it's sort of into catweasel territory (albeit with the > convenience of an external device). Speaking of the Catweasel, does anyone know what the data it returns actually means? Is it a 'time from last transition to this one' value, or something else? (I've read the programming specs, and they're about as clear as mud) > out how to program a PIC. I would have absolutely no idea what to do > with an FPGA, let alone be able to contribute anything to the design :) Verilog isn't particularly hard to learn, especially if you know C. > From the point of view of the host machine, the set of operations > needed isn't complex - something like 'assign parameters', 'read track', > 'write track', 'get error information', 'format track', 'seek', and > possibly something like 'download firmware'. It shouldn't actually be a > complex device - but it is best left to someone who has experience of > building SBC-like devices :-) That'd be me then. > Transfer speed is a huge headache - 200KB or whatever at RS232 speeds is > painful. Repeat for 160 tracks and it becomes rather annoying! (It > suggests that some sort of simple compression scheme is needed) Maybe have 115200-baud RS232 and multi-megabit USB as an option? Add a jumper to the board to switch between them - one position for RS232, the other for USB. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Oct 19 23:37:39 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 23:37:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OT: Good deal on knockout punch set In-Reply-To: References: <45377881.31967.821CDEA@cclist.sydex.com> <453794B6.24689.88FFE18@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Oct 2006, James Rice wrote: > On 10/19/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Maybe these'd be okay with aluminum or very mild steel. Sigh. > > Probably the same Chinese boron steel that makes bolts snap off if you > > look at 'em sideways. > > I was an electrician for 27 years. Greenlee makes good punches but even > those can be broken and have the threads stripped. For what I need at > this momoent, the cheap ones will punch the two or three holes a year I > need. If I need more, I'll invest in a new Greenlee hydraulic > SlugSplitter set. I just wish they made the SlugSplitter series in sizes larger than 2". If you want the larger sizes, you have to use the regular SlugBuster punches. I have to agree with other folks though, Greenlee makes some of the best punches around. I can't say the same for some of their other tools, but every manufacturer has their specialty. > I've always regretted selling mine after I quit the business. They turn up regularly on eBay. You can get them in like-new condition for about half retail or less. You do have to watch out though, some sellers will repaint the case and tooling to make it look better than it is. Also, just for general reference, the newer punch designs are called the SlugBuster SC and SlugSplitter SC. I'm not sure I really like the newer SC design myself, as they look like they would be less durable long-term. -Toth From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 20 00:23:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (cclist at sydex.com) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 22:23:42 -0700 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, Message-ID: <4537FAEE.7371.A1F4333@cclist.sydex.com> If you're thinking about putting two drives on a BP controller or changing the types, I think I've got the MicroSolutions "write drive type to NVRAM" utility here somewhere if anyone needs it. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 20 09:38:07 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 07:38:07 -0700 Subject: OT: Good deal on knockout punch set In-Reply-To: <453794B6.24689.88FFE18@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 19 Oct 2006 at 17:56, 9000 VAX wrote: > > > It happens that I am also active at the diyaudio forum. I had bad >experience > > with those punchs and I started a thread there, > > http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83528 > >I can't vouch for them, I just noted the coupon and remembered the >tiie-in. I've got a set of Greenlees that's perhaps 40 years old and >works just fine. > >Maybe these'd be okay with aluminum or very mild steel. Sigh. >Probably the same Chinese boron steel that makes bolts snap off if >you look at 'em sideways. > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi One thing to remember for punch health is to keep them lubricated. This is especially true for aluminum. It tends to stick to surfaces. It can cause the punch to skew and break. A light lub on the blade works best while the threads should use a grease. Cleaning the threads will also help to keep chips from getting into the threads. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more?then map the best route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001 From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Oct 20 00:13:37 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 06:13:37 +0100 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <4537E3AD.8020500@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4537CF03.1000500@yahoo.co.uk> <200610192013.k9JKD97U004672@hosting.monisys.ca> <4537E3AD.8020500@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45385B01.7070505@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Maybe DHCP solves half that problem; can a device broadcast on the > network and find a DHCP server without being told of its IP address in > advance? Yes, that's the whole point of DHCP ;-) Gordon From trag at io.com Fri Oct 20 09:27:55 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 09:27:55 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <200610200629.k9K6SpcO025753@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200610200629.k9K6SpcO025753@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:51:00 -0700 >From: "Chuck Guzis" >Subject: Re: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Message-ID: <453774B4.25279.812F7FE at cclist.sydex.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >On 19 Oct 2006 at 14:16, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I don't think you necessarily need anything like that much; I remember Dave >> Dunfield and I discussing this a while back and it worked out at something >> like a couple of hundred KB I'm sure. > >If you're going track-by-track, probably a couple hundred K is more >than enough. But holding a complete 8" DSHD image runs to something >like 6MB if you hang onto the whole histogram. > >I think you'd definitely want to have enough storage to hold a >complete image--it'd make copying much simpler, no? Besides, a few >megabytes of RAM is nothing nowadays. > >> I don't know, what's a couple of hundred KB of memory, a CPU (say a Z80 for >> sake of argument), a bit of ROM, and a serial interface chip, plus a bit of >> glue logic? > >Probably use something a bit more common, say an ARM? Not that I >have anything against a Z80 (or Z180, or EZ80). Just that extra >horsepower can be very nice, even if you don't need it right away. They're a bit more expensive (about $5 in quantity) but the MC9S12UF32 looks interesting. It has a built-in USB interface (in addition to the SCI serial interface) and a built-in ATA-5 interface. I'm not sure what one would use the latter for in this application, but the built-in USB interface would be nice if one wanted to build a unit with both serial and USB interfaces to the host. It would require considerably more software development, but another interesting possibility might be to have an ethernet interface and build the disk drive as a network storage/reading device. The MC9S12NE64 has an ethernet MAC and EPHY built-in as well as the more common SCI. And of course, they both have plenty of extra horsepower. Jeff Walther From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 20 11:24:18 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:24:18 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: References: <200610200629.k9K6SpcO025753@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4538F832.70504@yahoo.co.uk> Jeff Walther wrote: >> Probably use something a bit more common, say an ARM? Not that I >> have anything against a Z80 (or Z180, or EZ80). Just that extra >> horsepower can be very nice, even if you don't need it right away. > > They're a bit more expensive (about $5 in quantity) but the MC9S12UF32 > looks interesting. It has a built-in USB interface (in addition to the > SCI serial interface) and a built-in ATA-5 interface. I'm not sure what > one would use the latter for in this application Hmm, well a CF card should plug right into that given a suitable socket, no? That might be an interesting way of providing the storage area for a disk image as it's non-volatile; in the future someone could add a standalone interface to the gadget and it wouldn't even need the controlling machine until data needed to be downloaded. How useful that is I don't know - and I think a truly portable device is well beyond an initial version anyway - but maybe CF is easier to interface to than lots of memory (with associated refresh issues) anyway? > It would require considerably more software development, but another > interesting possibility might be to have an ethernet interface and build > the disk drive as a network storage/reading device. The MC9S12NE64 has > an ethernet MAC and EPHY built-in as well as the more common SCI. I'm certainly much more in favour of Ethernet than I am USB. I can't help thinking we'd be reinventing the wheel with Ethernet development; surely there are several single-board type devices out there for which people have developed network stacks already? Maybe some of them are even free to use... cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 20 01:32:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (cclist at sydex.com) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 23:32:29 -0700 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <45381500.903@philpem.me.uk> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk>, <45381500.903@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <45380B0D.1100.A5E3B73@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Oct 2006 at 1:14, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Speaking of the Catweasel, does anyone know what the data it returns actually > means? Is it a 'time from last transition to this one' value, or something else? > (I've read the programming specs, and they're about as clear as mud) Just so--and the high order bit of each byte indicates if the INDEX/ line is active. The Catweasel is exceedingly simple-minded. One might be able to get rid of the SRAM and counter that the CW uses for track storage if the host controller supported reliable DMA. > Maybe have 115200-baud RS232 and multi-megabit USB as an option? > Add a jumper to the board to switch between them - one position for RS232, the > other for USB. I *like* the idea of ethernet myself. Hardly anything, save for some very vintage gear that doesn't understand it. I wonder if you could use one of the standard services, such as ftp, to nearly avoid having to write anything for the host system... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 20 13:20:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:20:40 -0700 Subject: Floppy drive box thingie; was: Re: Wow; $192 for a 5.25 Message-ID: <4538B108.21848.CE69B29@cclist.sydex.com> As long as we're talking about it; here are a few more ideas to consider. 1. The Catweasel uses a selectable clock rate to obtain a clock count that will fit in 7 bits. My gripe with this is that I have to read a track or two (if different densities on the same disk) to determine the correct clock rate. There's little worse than finding out that you've guessed wrongly and your image is worthless. If we're going to employ a dedicated MPU/MCU to handle this stuff, why not go with a 10- or 11-bit clock rate and get rid of the rate selection? One of the spare bits could be used for index detection on hard-sectored disks. 2. Some drive diagnostics should be incorporated. Particularly with 5.25" drives, old sticky floppies can really drag the rotational speed down. I'd really like to know that it's happening. 3. I can envision this device as a small box, powered by a wall wart with an RJ-45 ethernet connector and on or two DC-37 female connectors for drives. Given that this thing's going to be used for all manner of drives, there's no compelling reason to provide drive power as part of it. 4. DHCP is a nice feature, but not all vintage networks support it. The option of a fixed IP address (192.168.x.x) would be a plus. 5. Should the box also supply the drive for older 8" drive 3-phase steppers? How about the head-load signal? That's it for now--I'm sure I'll think of something else! Cheers, Chuck From cc at corti-net.de Fri Oct 20 03:59:58 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:59:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: dec /34a issue (more info) In-Reply-To: <200610191704.35251.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <001a01c6f3b5$96741d20$6700a8c0@BILLING> <4537DD91.5070604@mindspring.com> <003d01c6f3be$819e7860$6700a8c0@BILLING> <200610191704.35251.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Oct 2006, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > If it makes you feel any better, simh gives the same results. So, > there's something wrong with the program you have, not your machine. :) > > Stepping through it, I catch the error: > > 000250 000773 br loop2 > > That actually branches back to the instruction *after* loop2. You > should instead have > > 000250 000771 br loop2 ^^^^^^ That should be 000772 > > That works as expected... What nobody has mentioned yet is that this memory tester is listed on the web page "Hints on testing a dead PDP-11". I went through all of this about six years ago when I was restoring our 11/34. I remember this fault, and I'm seeing that I had corrected this typo on the printout I did back then. It seems that the web page has been corrected since then, so Jay must have used an old printout, too. Christian From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Oct 20 13:45:01 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8-inch drive substitutes Message-ID: I recently sold a Qumetrak 842 8-inch floppy drive to a fellow who's restoring a CMI vintage synthesizer. He says that this particular model is what the synth uses. Can anyone think of a reason why he couldn't use some other model of drive as long as it's capable of reading DSDD media? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Oct 20 13:52:31 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:52:31 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <45380B0D.1100.A5E3B73@cclist.sydex.com> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk>, <45381500.903@philpem.me.uk> <45380B0D.1100.A5E3B73@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45391AEF.8010105@mdrconsult.com> cclist at sydex.com wrote: > I *like* the idea of ethernet myself. Hardly anything, save for some very vintage gear that > doesn't understand it. I wonder if you could use one of the standard services, such as ftp, to > nearly avoid having to write anything for the host system... Hrrm. TFTP would be a natural for this, at least if you limit the host to Unix/Linux systems. I have no idea how you'd fare for a TFTP daemon in WinWorld. Normally TFTP services are read-only or allow only modification to existing files, but the daemon can be told to allow file creation. The client code - appliance end - is necessarily tiny, it's lightweight, and most current clients and daemons support RFC1783 negotiation for large-file transfers. The appliance could then boot from the host, too, but that seems like overkill to me. I have a couple of thoughts to offer about this basic concept. 1) I like the idea of using something like ARM processors With everything built into the chip, you'd not only get a much smaller component count, but it seems to me that most of the layout and basic code would likely be already out there. All that spells a lower long-run cost in general, and more universal accessibility. 2) RS232/RS422 serial is getting harder to support, and will continue to get worse. USB is simply not an option for some of us. Anyone with a PDP-11 or a C64 can support an ethernet connection, and almost (?) everything needed for implementation for both host and appliance is already there. Plus, the standards for ethernet transactions are not as "widely interpreted" as those for USB or serial. 3) It might be well to stipulate and design this as a tool for advanced users only, at least to start. I'd happily settle for something simple and raw with 8 pages of install instructions. As an example of what I mean and why, if TFTP is used, having that set up by hand makes it more likely that the user understands the security implications and will handle that. 4) Same concept concerning host platforms. I vote for $FreeOS as the initial supporting platform, but if DOS works better, so be it. Get it out the door and running, and somebody else will write support for the other platforms. 5) For anyone not a network geek, DHCP is a right pain to manage, as is broadcast TFTP. Again as a short-term implementation, how about stipulating a dedicated interface, with the IP preprogrammed and programmable? If can't leave it dedicated, I could set the host IP to talk to the appliance and reprogram the appliance IP and TFTP target to match my subnet. That should actually reduce the amount of setup on the host side. 6) Git 'er dun. I'd like to point at The Great Universal Archive Format Project of a couple of years ago. Trying to anticipate and solve every possible permutation killed that deader than hell. Design in some room to grow, cover the basic common disk formats, and expect v1.0 to suck. I don't have any design skills to offer, but I'd throw some dollars in the pot and such free time as I have for testing. This is a tool that I'd very much like to have. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 20 13:59:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 11:59:07 -0700 Subject: 8-inch drive substitutes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4538BA0B.18042.D09CEB6@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Oct 2006 at 11:45, David Griffith wrote: > I recently sold a Qumetrak 842 8-inch floppy drive to a fellow who's > restoring a CMI vintage synthesizer. He says that this particular model > is what the synth uses. Can anyone think of a reason why he couldn't use > some other model of drive as long as it's capable of reading DSDD media? Seek rate can vary all over the place with 8" drives. I think the 842 will handle either 6 or 8 ms track-to-track, but others may require as much as 30 msec. --Chuck From nico at farumdata.dk Fri Oct 20 14:13:29 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 21:13:29 +0200 Subject: 8-inch drive substitutes References: Message-ID: <001e01c6f47b$dc2f9b20$2101a8c0@finans> From: "David Griffith" Subject: 8-inch drive substitutes > I recently sold a Qumetrak 842 8-inch floppy drive to a fellow who's > restoring a CMI vintage synthesizer. He says that this particular model > is what the synth uses. Can anyone think of a reason why he couldn't use > some other model of drive as long as it's capable of reading DSDD media? > I've seen at least 3 different power connectors, so that could be a reason. Maybe his drive uses voltages different from +5 and +24. I've also seen some differences with regard to the position of the mounting holes. And then we have of course half vs. full height. Nico From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Oct 20 14:17:23 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:17:23 -0400 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <200610201700.k9KH0V0u030708@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <006701c6f47c$5f346870$6600a8c0@barry> Doing this with RS-232 is just dumb. It's clearly a USB application. I really believe that there is a relatively large market for such a device (USB to 5.25 (and possibly 8") interface). I'm thinking tens or hundreds of thousands of units (not a significant market penetration in a world with hundreds of millions of PCs in use and an additional 100 million sold annually, but enough to make design and manufacture easily justifiable). Because I think that this has much wider application than just "us classic computer collectors", I think that size, aesthetics and ease of use matter. Sure, the functionality can be achieved with a whole PC, and an old PC can be nearly "free". But that's not what the CPA firm that needs to access a client's old records on 5.25" diskettes wants. They want a nice, small, not too expensive box that plugs into a USB port and has a CD of drivers and file transfer software (including file transfer programs for non-Microsoft OS' ... even, in fact in particular, CP/M). I personally don't care about a cat-weasel type device that tries to capture every flux transition on the disc. I don't care about hard sector formats either (Heathkit, NorthStar) unless I can do them with no great extra effort. Being able to handle "any" soft-sector format with 128, 256, 512 or 1024 byte sectors, single or double sided, 5.25" (360k or 1.2MB) {and POSSBILY 8" (ok, for me, preferably)) is good enough and is relatively easy to do. A USB interface, a microprocessor and a floppy controller. And some software on the PC side for file transfer. Keep it relatively simple, relatively cheap, and still meet the needs of the vast majority of people who might have a use for such a device. While I might want to use this for CP/M (and the device should allow that, even if the extent of this is that it allows arbitrary read and write I/O to specific side/track/sector, and let software on the PC deal with the file system), the primary use of this is going to be for 5.25" PC diskettes (both 360k and 1.2MB) now that PCs no longer have 5.25" floppies. And, if it wasn't for the fact that there are USB 3.5" floppy drives, we'd soon need it for those as well, as floppy drives of all types and sizes are in their "end days". From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Oct 20 14:23:38 2006 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:23:38 -0400 Subject: 8-inch drive substitutes Message-ID: From: "David Griffith" Subject: 8-inch drive substitutes > I recently sold a Qumetrak 842 8-inch floppy drive to a fellow who's > restoring a CMI vintage synthesizer. He says that this particular model > is what the synth uses. Can anyone think of a reason why he couldn't use > some other model of drive as long as it's capable of reading DSDD media? Stepping rate and head-load timings will vary between drives. Sometimes dramatically (e.g. Persci's!) Jumpering of drives for things such as drive ready, disk change, etc. can get hairy unless you have documentation for both the "original" and "target" drives. Jumpering details can vary between different board revisions. Often transliterating the jumpering needed is easy; other times you think you did it right but there are gotchas you don't see until you look at schematics or pull out your scope. In industrial uses sometimes you see door-lock and disk-eject solenoids - available on many models but not commonly found in many circumstances. (These are also options on some 5.25" and 3.5" drives...) Some drives are capable of remotely spinning up and down. As Nico mentions, some use 50Hz AC for the drive motor, some use 60Hz AC for the drive motor, and others run the drive motor from the +24VDC. And as Nico alludes to, some need just +5/+24V and others need some negative power supply for the electronics and others need line AC for the motor. Often the drive itself is behind some panel/bezel and the holes in the panel must match the holes in the drive :-). Some drives are distinctly non-standard in terms of dimensions, even if they come from "standard" manufacturers (there were some weird-ass Shugarts out there.) Tim. From pdp11 at saccade.com Fri Oct 20 04:28:52 2006 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 02:28:52 -0700 Subject: Oregon Software Pascal/2 In-Reply-To: <452ECA27.9060501@retrobbs.org> References: <200610121551340590.68ABE25F@10.0.0.252> <200610122036.k9CKaLJw013628@onyx.spiritone.com> <452EBAD5.5050003@msm.umr.edu> <200610121551340590.68ABE25F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20061020022039.02f86da8@mail.saccade.com> Hi, >Anyone know what happened to Oregon Software.... Oregon Software went under in the late '80s (1988 IIRC). The decline of the DEC business, their absence in the PC market, and the rise of free GNU toolchains were all contributing factors. They did try to catch the C++ wave (their "Oregon C++" was well regarded) but it was too little, too late. Cheers, jp From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 20 14:48:48 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 12:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8-inch drive substitutes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061020124456.J57928@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, David Griffith wrote: > I recently sold a Qumetrak 842 8-inch floppy drive to a fellow who's > restoring a CMI vintage synthesizer. He says that this particular model > is what the synth uses. Can anyone think of a reason why he couldn't use > some other model of drive as long as it's capable of reading DSDD media? lack of complete standardization of power supply voltages and connectors lack of complete standardization of mounting hole locations obscure feature/jumper combinations esthetics of matching appearance of adjacent drive desire to retain original appearance we once had a nasty go-round with Merganthaler about service with an "after-market" drive installed From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 20 15:26:47 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8-inch drive substitutes In-Reply-To: <4538BA0B.18042.D09CEB6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4538BA0B.18042.D09CEB6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061020132458.C58862@shell.lmi.net> > > I recently sold a Qumetrak 842 8-inch floppy drive to a fellow who's > > restoring a CMI vintage synthesizer. He says that this particular model > > is what the synth uses. Can anyone think of a reason why he couldn't use > > some other model of drive as long as it's capable of reading DSDD media? On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Seek rate can vary all over the place with 8" drives. I think the > 842 will handle either 6 or 8 ms track-to-track, but others may > require as much as 30 msec. Especially interesting because the Qumetrak 142 5.25" drive was the slowest one that had come along. So slow that MS/PC-DOS 2.10 was needed to allow for it. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 20 15:43:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:43:15 -0700 Subject: 8-inch drive substitutes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4538D273.1215.D6926D1@cclist.sydex.com> I took the OP's question a bit differently, I guess. I read it as "If I can't find a Qume 842, is there any reason that I can't use a different drive, all else (power supply, mounting holes, connectors, bezel, etc.) being the same?" Golly, if you want "different", some of the old Japanese drives were really bizarre. Not to mention drives with 3-phase positioners, radial select, onboard data separators, etc. Or drives with the occasional inverted control line--or power supplied through the 50- pin drive connector (e.g. Calcomp). But if you can find a drive that matches up in physical characteristics and takes the same power supply--and has a reasonable set of configuration jumpers, the big gotcha is seek rate, no? A drive without a door-lock solenoid isn't really going to bother you, nor is one that doesn't have an auto-eject feature. But you can't really do much about seek rate unless you want to hack the software. And if the seek rate is too slow (doesn't apply here, since the 842 is a pretty fast drive) for the new drive, operation will likely be extremely noisy. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 20 15:56:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 13:56:19 -0700 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <006701c6f47c$5f346870$6600a8c0@barry> References: <200610201700.k9KH0V0u030708@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <006701c6f47c$5f346870$6600a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <4538D583.9476.D751BB4@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Oct 2006 at 15:17, Barry Watzman wrote: > Doing this with RS-232 is just dumb. It's clearly a USB application. Even for those systems without USB support? You're forgetting who posts on this list! > I personally don't care about a cat-weasel type device that tries to capture > every flux transition on the disc. I don't care about hard sector formats > either (Heathkit, NorthStar) unless I can do them with no great extra > effort. Being able to handle "any" soft-sector format with 128, 256, 512 or > 1024 byte sectors, single or double sided, 5.25" (360k or 1.2MB) {and > POSSBILY 8" (ok, for me, preferably)) is good enough and is relatively easy > to do. A USB interface, a microprocessor and a floppy controller. And some > software on the PC side for file transfer. Keep it relatively simple, > relatively cheap, and still meet the needs of the vast majority of people > who might have a use for such a device. A CPA's not likely to be terribly interested in 5.25" diskettes, is s/he? Given that the statute of limitations in most jurisdictions is about 7 years, that puts the outer edge of the window firmly in 3.5" territory--and there are already cheap USB boxes for that. The other issue is that marketing a box to handle 5.25" and 8" to the Great Horde brings up the problem of where one obtains a 5.25" or 8" drive nowadays. Sure, there's the used-equipment market, but just try selling someone in a white shirt and pinstriped suit on the idea of scavenging a drive. What the heck, if I have to scavenge a drive, why not just use the whole PC that I'm scavenging it from? (nod to Fred). There are many formats that a generic floppy controller won't handle-- and some are not uncommon. For example, old Mac 400K/800K floppies, Apple ][ diskettes, CBM diskettes, Wang, Lanier and many other WP formats? If you're going to sell something to the masses, you'd better offer complete solutions (drives and all) and be able to explain why you can't read old Mac formats. My take, of course. Cheers, Chuck > > While I might want to use this for CP/M (and the device should allow that, > even if the extent of this is that it allows arbitrary read and write I/O to > specific side/track/sector, and let software on the PC deal with the file > system), the primary use of this is going to be for 5.25" PC diskettes (both > 360k and 1.2MB) now that PCs no longer have 5.25" floppies. And, if it > wasn't for the fact that there are USB 3.5" floppy drives, we'd soon need it > for those as well, as floppy drives of all types and sizes are in their "end > days". > > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 20 16:30:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:30:08 -0700 Subject: 8-inch drive substitutes In-Reply-To: <20061020132458.C58862@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4538BA0B.18042.D09CEB6@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061020132458.C58862@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4538DD70.5112.D9412C4@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Oct 2006 at 13:26, Fred Cisin wrote: > Especially interesting because the Qumetrak 142 5.25" drive was the > slowest one that had come along. So slow that MS/PC-DOS 2.10 was needed > to allow for it. The tail end of the Micropolis 5.25" line was so horrifically slow, that they incorporated buffered seek into it. This was circa 1983- 84. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Oct 19 23:42:57 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 00:42:57 -0400 Subject: What's the easiest way to test unmarked crystals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200610200042.58154.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 19 October 2006 09:35 pm, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have a small handful of crystals and was wondering what the easiest > way to divine their frequencies... I can say that I'm reasonably > certain that all of them are between 32.768Khz and 50MHz, but some are > blank, and some have non-obvious cryptic markings. What I'm looking > for is some simple way to get them to oscillate and measure them with > a frequency counter (i.e. - assume one is starting with a working, > trustable frequency counter). > > Is it as simple as a pair of inverters/NANDs in the classic crystal > loop, or is that circuit massively frequency dependent (i.e. - works > for 1Mhz-10Mhz, not faster or slower...)? I'd go with CMOS, myself -- any inverting gate should do it. Put some high-value resistance across it to bias it (10M?), and you may need a cap or two at either end to get the crystal going. Maybe run it off a 9V battery? I have a bunch I need to test too. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, dealiest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of spac, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 20 16:56:12 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 16:56:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: staticy plastic tubs Message-ID: <200610202156.k9KLuCEI006423@keith.ezwind.net> --- Ray Arachelian wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > This brings to mind a question: I have lots of > chips packaged in > > static-safe chip tubes which are then put in > metalized anti-static plastic > > bags. Is it okay to put packages like this into > said staticy plastic > > tubs? > > > Yes. But to be even safer, you could line the > inside of those bins, and > if you can, the sides and top with aluminum foil. > This will build > something like a Faraday cage which will keep the > chip tubes nice and > safe. > err... what's a Faraday cage? Someone I know sends disks to people (including myself) wrapped in aluminum foil. I keep them as he sent them, so I can tell which disks he sent me. The only problem is after getting them out I have a tough time getting them back in the box because of the foil. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Oct 20 17:05:15 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 17:05:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <45391AEF.8010105@mdrconsult.com> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk>, <45381500.903@philpem.me.uk> <45380B0D.1100.A5E3B73@cclist.sydex.com> <45391AEF.8010105@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, Doc Shipley wrote: > 1) I like the idea of using something like ARM processors With > everything built into the chip, you'd not only get a much smaller > component count, but it seems to me that most of the layout and basic > code would likely be already out there. All that spells a lower > long-run cost in general, and more universal accessibility. I was thinking the same thing. Heck, if you are using an ARM already, lots of *nix type OS have already been ported to it, which might mean there are already even more software tools ready for use. > 2) RS232/RS422 serial is getting harder to support, and will continue to > get worse. USB is simply not an option for some of us. Anyone with a > PDP-11 or a C64 can support an ethernet connection, and almost (?) > everything needed for implementation for both host and appliance is > already there. Plus, the standards for ethernet transactions are not as > "widely interpreted" as those for USB or serial. Personally, if someone is going to build a small device such as this, I'd really like to see at least 3 interface options; RS232 serial, USB 2.0, and ethernet. These would pretty much cover 99% of the folks who'd want to use it. If someone wanted to get fancy, firewire would be another option, but USB 2.0 would cover most of the folks who'd want firewire anyway. > 3) It might be well to stipulate and design this as a tool for advanced > users only, at least to start. I'd happily settle for something simple > and raw with 8 pages of install instructions. As an example of what I > mean and why, if TFTP is used, having that set up by hand makes it more > likely that the user understands the security implications and will > handle that. > > 4) Same concept concerning host platforms. I vote for $FreeOS as the > initial supporting platform, but if DOS works better, so be it. Get it > out the door and running, and somebody else will write support for the > other platforms. > > 5) For anyone not a network geek, DHCP is a right pain to manage, as is > broadcast TFTP. Again as a short-term implementation, how about > stipulating a dedicated interface, with the IP preprogrammed and > programmable? If can't leave it dedicated, I could set the host IP to > talk to the appliance and reprogram the appliance IP and TFTP target to > match my subnet. That should actually reduce the amount of setup on the > host side. Is anyone else here familiar with the Empeg? StrongARM processor, USB, serial, ethernet and running Linux. One thing that I think they got right were the connectivity options. USB works pretty much out of the box, as does serial. Ethernet support can work with DHCP or can be manually configured. > 6) Git 'er dun. I'd like to point at The Great Universal Archive Format > Project of a couple of years ago. Trying to anticipate and solve every > possible permutation killed that deader than hell. Design in some room > to grow, cover the basic common disk formats, and expect v1.0 to suck. > > I don't have any design skills to offer, but I'd throw some dollars in > the pot and such free time as I have for testing. This is a tool that > I'd very much like to have. I have a literal pile of 5.25" drive chassis with DB37 connectors on them... I'm not sure which type of 5.25" drive was still installed when they were decommissioned though. I am setup where I can fab cables and wiring harnesses (with the most common types of connectors anyway). Anything I don't have in the way of tooling I can probably find if needed too. -Toth From ray at arachelian.com Fri Oct 20 17:23:37 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 18:23:37 -0400 Subject: staticy plastic tubs In-Reply-To: <200610202156.k9KLuCEI006423@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200610202156.k9KLuCEI006423@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <45394C69.6070305@arachelian.com> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > err... what's a Faraday cage? > When in doubt, google it. :-) Here's a good answer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 20 17:50:33 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 17:50:33 -0500 Subject: dec /34a issue (more info) References: <001a01c6f3b5$96741d20$6700a8c0@BILLING><4537DD91.5070604@mindspring.com><003d01c6f3be$819e7860$6700a8c0@BILLING><200610191704.35251.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <004901c6f49a$274f30c0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Christian wrote... > What nobody has mentioned yet is that this memory tester is listed on the > web page "Hints on testing a dead PDP-11". I went through all of this > about six years ago when I was restoring our 11/34. I remember this fault, > and I'm seeing that I had corrected this typo on the printout I did back > then. It seems that the web page has been corrected since then, so Jay > must have used an old printout, too. Yes, and no. I did use an old printout. However, when Pat spotted the error, I went back to the website and the website definitely had the value wrong. So I copied the section of code right off the website and emailed it to the owner. I suspect that he changed it (possibly again) before you looked at it. Jay From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 20 17:59:20 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 17:59:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) Message-ID: <200610202259.k9KMxJjM007895@keith.ezwind.net> --- Ray Arachelian wrote: > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > > > err... what's a Faraday cage? > > > When in doubt, google it. :-) Here's a good answer : > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage > Ahh, thanks. I had forgotten about Google (not surprising since I have been working 8.5 hour days for the past week and only getting 6 hours sleep each night). I don't like to rely too heavily on Wikipedia as (like alot of information online) you can't be sure what's right or wrong, unless someone knowledgeable in the subject can confirm it. So if I understand correctly, the outer casing of a harddrive acts as a Faraday cage? My (4GB) Toshiba ones I use in my Amiga 600 have circuitry on the underside, but I suspect that may stop it being a Faraday cage, unless it's stuck onto the outside of the unit. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 20 18:10:16 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 17:10:16 -0600 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 20 Oct 2006 17:59:20 -0500. <200610202259.k9KMxJjM007895@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <200610202259.k9KMxJjM007895 at keith.ezwind.net>, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk writes: > I don't like to rely too heavily on Wikipedia > as (like alot of information online) you can't > be sure what's right or wrong, unless someone > knowledgeable in the subject can confirm it. I haven't seen any glaring mistakes yet, just the occasional spelling error or typo, which I correct. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download From ray at arachelian.com Fri Oct 20 18:54:51 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 19:54:51 -0400 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <200610202259.k9KMxJjM007895@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200610202259.k9KMxJjM007895@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <453961CB.3090103@arachelian.com> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > Ahh, thanks. I had forgotten about Google > (not surprising since I have been working > 8.5 hour days for the past week and only > getting 6 hours sleep each night). > Sounds a lot like my schedule. Are you also a sysadmin? :-) > I don't like to rely too heavily on Wikipedia > as (like alot of information online) you can't > be sure what's right or wrong, unless someone > knowledgeable in the subject can confirm it. > For things that I'm familiar with Wikipedia is almost always correct. For things that I'm not familiar with, their external links point to data that agrees with it. > So if I understand correctly, the outer casing > of a harddrive acts as a Faraday cage? My > (4GB) Toshiba ones I use in my Amiga 600 > have circuitry on the underside, but I suspect > that may stop it being a Faraday cage, unless > it's stuck onto the outside of the unit. > The platters are very well protected by the metal case. There are holes for air, (hard drives don't like working in a vacuum or low air pressure) and of course holes for the control/data cables, so it's not a perfect Faraday cage, but it's close enough. Faraday cages protect the inside from static electricity (ESD) as well as limit the amount of Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) that's able to penetrate in or out of them. The board isn't protected by the Faraday cage effect, but since the cards are designed with their ground lines around the edges such that they're less vulnerable and enough resistors to dissipate ESD energy. Even so, ESD is dangerous to hard drives - the controllers anyway. This is why they're shipped in nice anti-static body-bags and have the ESD warnings on them. This is why one bit of advice in repairing drives when they're no longer accessible is to swap the controller card. Of course this requires an identical drive, right down to the same firmware revision for it to work. The controller cards are meant to be protected by the computer's case (or external hard drive case), which is supposed to be shielded. The magnetic media is well protected by the Faraday cage from RFI, but even so, the platters have high coercivity than floppies, which means it would take a very strong magnetic field to flip the bits around. ESD doesn't do very much to the data on the platters. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Oct 20 19:40:47 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 19:40:47 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com> Richard wrote: > In article <200610202259.k9KMxJjM007895 at keith.ezwind.net>, > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk writes: > >> I don't like to rely too heavily on Wikipedia >> as (like alot of information online) you can't >> be sure what's right or wrong, unless someone >> knowledgeable in the subject can confirm it. > > I haven't seen any glaring mistakes yet, just the occasional spelling > error or typo, which I correct. I just had a long running argument with a clown that insisted that interpreted BASIC on a PCjr was as fast as compiled BASIC because the original BASIC compiler wasn't up to snuff in his opinion. I find the pages related to math and science are reasonable, but after that little encounter I'm a little more skeptical about Wiki. Colbert was right when he coined 'Wikiality'. Mike From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 20 20:19:26 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 20:19:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) Message-ID: <200610210119.k9L1JPan011540@keith.ezwind.net> --- Ray Arachelian wrote: > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > Ahh, thanks. I had forgotten about Google > > (not surprising since I have been working > > 8.5 hour days for the past week and only > > getting 6 hours sleep each night). > > > Sounds a lot like my schedule. Are you also a > sysadmin? :-) errr.. no. I work for a water company and am a lab technician. Among other things we test the water to make sure it's safe to drink. > > I don't like to rely too heavily on Wikipedia > > as (like alot of information online) you can't > > be sure what's right or wrong, unless someone > > knowledgeable in the subject can confirm it. > > > For things that I'm familiar with Wikipedia is > almost always correct. > For things that I'm not familiar with, their > external links point to > data that agrees with it. > > So if I understand correctly, the outer casing > > of a harddrive acts as a Faraday cage? My > > (4GB) Toshiba ones I use in my Amiga 600 > > have circuitry on the underside, but I suspect > > that may stop it being a Faraday cage, unless > > it's stuck onto the outside of the unit. > > > The platters are very well protected by the metal > case. There are holes > for air, (hard drives don't like working in a vacu um > or low air > pressure) and of course holes for the control/data > cables, so it's not a > perfect Faraday cage, but it's close enough. They must be really small air holes (or well hidden) as I never saw any when installing the HD's Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 20 10:14:19 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 10:14:19 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <453798AC.31377.89F7742@cclist.sydex.com> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <453774B4.25279.812F7FE@cclist.sydex.com>, <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk> <453798AC.31377.89F7742@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4538E7CB.7020102@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Oct 2006 at 15:28, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I don't see what it would gain you, though. You've still got the same amount >> of data to transfer between host and device - and I bet someone can come up >> with a situation where they'd want to just read or write a single track rather >> than an entire image, which makes transferring an entire image wasteful >> (particularly at RS232 speeds!) > > I didn't say that transfers should be whole-image; just that the read > operation should be capable of transferring a whole image at a time. > Here's why. > > Suppose the track image of a CW contains HD MFM data--worst-case, > you'll have something like 100K flux transitions to record. That's > 100K bytes per track. Assuming you use 115K for your serial transfer > link, that's 10 bits per byte (8N1) or about 11K bytes per second, > so you can transfer the aforementioned track in 9 seconds, roughly. > 160 tracks amounts to 24 minutes. That's more time than I want to > have the heads loaded and motor spinning with some aging floppy > that's barely hanging on to its oxide. Sure - I wouldn't want that either, I'd expect the motor to only be run during each track read, though. Whether starting and stopping the motor n times to read a disk is a good idea or not I don't know - it's more stress on the drive for sure, but whether it's sufficiently more to warrant not doing it I don't know. What's the worst-case floppy rotation speed - 300rpm? So five revolutions per second. Fastest transfer rate is 1Mbps (although didn't some PS/2 systems manage two?) which in theory gives a maximum of 200Kbits for a track. But with 8x oversampling that'll be 200KB of data for a single sampled track read. So roughly 18 seconds per track, given the port speeds you mentioned above. That's slooooow. Given the nature of the data though, it'd probably compress (using something like LZW) reasonably well - but then if driven by an old 8bit CPU it may be that any compression (or decompression for write transfers) uses up any time saved at the transfer stage. > When I work with floppies here, I usually read them at most one-and-a- > half times. I then spend my head-scratching hours looking at the > image, not the original. Yep, same here. I don't normally expect more than a couple of reads out of a disk - although typically they'll do a *lot* more than that (at least for 5.25" media). > So, if the aforementioned hypothetical box can simply suck up an > entire disk at full drive speed, so much the better for everyone. I'm thinking that the "box built from junk PC bits" needs more investigation (would make it easy to provide Ethernet support!). It depends what people want, though - do they want a box to do data recovery from various floppy media (which means a selection of drive types plugged in at once), or do they want a backpack-like single drive solution (which implies they want something compact, and the bulk of a scrap PC motherboard + PSU is too big)? Personally I'd ideally want to throw at least 8", DD + HD 5.25", and DD + HD 3.5" drives in there - which in PC parlance probably means something like a midi-tower case just to fit drives in, so compactness of the controlling hardware isn't an issue. cheers Jules From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 20 19:51:18 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 19:51:18 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com> Message-ID: <00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Someone wrote.... > I just had a long running argument with a clown that insisted that > interpreted BASIC on a PCjr was as fast as compiled BASIC because the > original BASIC compiler wasn't up to snuff in his opinion. I don't know about the PCjr, but I have definitely seen some platforms where an interpreted language was faster in many ways than compiled code. Most of the ones I saw like that had the BASIC stored in a stack-oriented pCode which was then run interpretively. One might think intuitively that compiled code is always faster than interpreted code. That's simply not true. When writing an interpreter you start seeing lots of ways to optimize & "cut corners" that aren't immediately obvious. In addition, it also depends on the underlying architecture of the machine and how the compiled code is generated. Jay West From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 20 14:56:33 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:56:33 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <45391AEF.8010105@mdrconsult.com> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk>, <45381500.903@philpem.me.uk> <45380B0D.1100.A5E3B73@cclist.sydex.com> <45391AEF.8010105@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <453929F1.6060302@yahoo.co.uk> Doc Shipley wrote: > cclist at sydex.com wrote: > >> I *like* the idea of ethernet myself. Hardly anything, save for some >> very vintage gear that doesn't understand it. I wonder if you could >> use one of the standard services, such as ftp, to nearly avoid having >> to write anything for the host system... > > Hrrm. TFTP would be a natural for this, at least if you limit the > host to Unix/Linux systems. I have no idea how you'd fare for a TFTP > daemon in WinWorld. Hmmm, I wouldn't think that the device being the client and the 'attached' computer being the server is a good idea; given that we'd likely want to support more than one OS, it opens up problems of file naming and the like (which aren't an issue the other way around, as it's the OS-specific bit of software running on the attached machine which prompts the user for a filename) Some sort of server on the device *might* be an option depending on architecture and what tools are out there; HTTP and FTP protocols aren't rocket science. Personally I'd like to treat this as though a single attached computer talks to a single 'remote floppy' device for the purpose of transferring a single disk image only at this stage - just to keep things as simple as possible and hopefully speed up development times. Later on there might be scope for having the device able to store more than one image at once or other fun things... > 2) RS232/RS422 serial is getting harder to support, and will continue to > get worse. USB is simply not an option for some of us. Anyone with a > PDP-11 or a C64 can support an ethernet connection, and almost (?) > everything needed for implementation for both host and appliance is > already there. Plus, the standards for ethernet transactions are not as > "widely interpreted" as those for USB or serial. Yep. I am concerned that OS support for sending raw Ethernet packets from any kind of user-space app just isn't there in most modern OSes, though. I really think it'd have to be IP-based to make the 'client' software do-able (and to prevent problems with any intermediate network devices), even if that means more complexity at the device end. > 3) It might be well to stipulate and design this as a tool for advanced > users only, at least to start. I'd happily settle for something simple > and raw with 8 pages of install instructions. As an example of what I > mean and why, if TFTP is used, having that set up by hand makes it more > likely that the user understands the security implications and will > handle that. If the device is the 'server', what's to set up? Plug it in, give it an IP address (method to be determined), fire up the client software and talk to it. > 4) Same concept concerning host platforms. I vote for $FreeOS as the > initial supporting platform, but if DOS works better, so be it. I'm of the same mind there. I expect nearly everyone who will want this can easily rustle up a DOS / Unix / OSX / whatever system, but Windows is more problematic for some of us. > 5) For anyone not a network geek, DHCP is a right pain to manage, as is > broadcast TFTP. Again as a short-term implementation, how about > stipulating a dedicated interface, with the IP preprogrammed and > programmable? If can't leave it dedicated, I could set the host IP to > talk to the appliance and reprogram the appliance IP and TFTP target to > match my subnet. That should actually reduce the amount of setup on the > host side. That was the reason for my question about DHCP; I've almost exclusively used static IP addresses for anything I've ever set up (mainly because most of the time they've been servers), so my knowledge of DHCP is lacking. I can't think of an easy way of doing that initial device configuration in an Ethernet world, though; DIP switches and the like requires a lot of them, but any other configuration seems to require some other form of interface to 'kick start' the initial config. > 6) Git 'er dun. For sure... I'd love for someone to Just Do This. Providing it's cheap I don't really mind how it's implemented either; I'd rather have something than nothing. What I don't want to do is pay 'too much' for something that doesn't do what's needed though, or is completely inflexible. It's probably worth exploring ideas for a couple of weeks, though, just to see what comes of it. After that, hopefully someone can just get on with it :) -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Oct 20 21:26:01 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 21:26:01 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk>, <45381500.903@philpem.me.uk> <45380B0D.1100.A5E3B73@cclist.sydex.com> <45391AEF.8010105@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <45398539.1080808@yahoo.co.uk> Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> 1) I like the idea of using something like ARM processors With >> everything built into the chip, you'd not only get a much smaller >> component count, but it seems to me that most of the layout and basic >> code would likely be already out there. All that spells a lower >> long-run cost in general, and more universal accessibility. > > I was thinking the same thing. Heck, if you are using an ARM already, > lots of *nix type OS have already been ported to it, which might mean > there are already even more software tools ready for use. True. I'm sure one of the guys over on the BBC micro mailing list has mentioned he's come up with an IP stack for one of the ARM boards; I'll have a hunt through messages sometime. > Personally, if someone is going to build a small device such as this, > I'd really like to see at least 3 interface options; RS232 serial, USB > 2.0, and ethernet. These would pretty much cover 99% of the folks who'd > want to use it. Personally I'd prefer SCSI over most other options - for the level of what we'd need it's easy to implement in hardware and easy to program for at the device end, plus certainly for Linux I know there are user-land tools available to send out raw SCSI commands to a device. Any kind of serious data recovery box I built would have SCSI on it anyway, in order to support archival from disks and tapes. I'm atypical, though :-) > Is anyone else here familiar with the Empeg? Yahuh - I've met the designer, actually; he lives not too far from me in the UK and was the person who gave the museum our BeBox. Nice guy. cheers Jules From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Oct 20 22:24:54 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 22:24:54 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com> <00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <45399306.7070201@brutman.com> Jay West wrote: > I don't know about the PCjr, but I have definitely seen some platforms > where an interpreted language was faster in many ways than compiled > code. Most of the ones I saw like that had the BASIC stored in a > stack-oriented pCode which was then run interpretively. One might think > intuitively that compiled code is always faster than interpreted code. > That's simply not true. When writing an interpreter you start seeing > lots of ways to optimize & "cut corners" that aren't immediately > obvious. In addition, it also depends on the underlying architecture of > the machine and how the compiled code is generated. It wasn't a theoretical environment in this case. It was the Wiki page for the PCjr, and the discussion page has the trail. For this discussion the PCjr has the same interpreted BASIC as the IBM PC. And there is no way on Earth that the interpreted BASIC on an IBM 5150 or PCjr is nearly as fast as compiled BASIC. In general I don't believe an interpreted language can beat a compiled language. Interpreting tokens or keywords is just far slower than compiled code, unless the compiler is severely broken. (Which I wouldn't call a fair comparison.) Except for Java VMs using just-in-time compiles (which makes it more of a compiler with a nice run-time environment), I can't think of any machine I've ever heard of where compiled was not faster overall. (Not talking about specific optimization, but rather the whole program.) Mike From evan at snarc.net Fri Oct 20 22:25:37 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:25:37 -0400 Subject: OT: microsoft browser virus! Message-ID: <000301c6f4c0$94ef5990$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I use Firefox 99% of the time, but tonight I decided to update IE 6 to the brand-new IE 7. So I opened Firefox, went to Microsoft.com, clicked the update button for IE on their homepage, and .... absolutely nothing happened. I guess they block FF. Not surprising, but no big deal. Instead I opened IE 6.x, again went to Microsoft.com, clicked the same update button, and .... my anti-virus scanner (Alwil Software' Avast, which I highly recommend) immediately popped up! It read the Microsoft download as a virus and it urged me to abort the connection. I rebooted and tried it again with the same results. It cites "VBS: zulu" as the culprit. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 20 22:54:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 20:54:02 -0700 Subject: OT: microsoft browser virus! In-Reply-To: <000301c6f4c0$94ef5990$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000301c6f4c0$94ef5990$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <4539376A.3684.EF38708@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Oct 2006 at 23:25, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Instead I opened IE 6.x, again went to Microsoft.com, clicked the same > update button, and .... my anti-virus scanner (Alwil Software' Avast, which > I highly recommend) immediately popped up! It read the Microsoft download > as a virus and it urged me to abort the connection. I rebooted and tried it > again with the same results. It cites "VBS: zulu" as the culprit. I dunno, M$ is having a slugfest with McAfee right now: http://tinyurl.com/yardmn So, I don't know whom I'd trust. Huh--that's the first time I've used tinyurl and got a link that even resembles an English word. :) Cheers, Chuck From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Oct 21 00:12:31 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 22:12:31 -0700 Subject: 150 something for disk drive, how about $25,000 for a Kaypro? Message-ID: <4539AC3F.9050409@msm.umr.edu> It hasn't sold, but has two declied offers on it. I have heard of overpricing, but this is pretty much one of the highest I have ever seen. He claims serial number 000003 or such. Anyone know how kaypro serialized their units? Is this really the third Kaypro-II. It isn't an Apple 1, which would demand some sort of premium like this, however, and I wonder if the S/N if it is for anything is for the "test set" he says it is part of, rather than the unit. Jim 300039229895 From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Oct 20 11:07:34 2006 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 17:07:34 +0100 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <4537E3AD.8020500@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4537CF03.1000500@yahoo.co.uk> <200610192013.k9JKD97U004672@hosting.monisys.ca> <4537E3AD.8020500@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4538F446.7040508@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Even assuming it can, and the DHCP server assigns it an IP > address, I'm not sure how client controlling machines would then locate > it on the network, though. Doubtless both questions are easily answered > by a trained network admin, though :-) You send a packet to the broadcast address. Say your client is 10.0.0.1, and the target device is 10.0.0.2, and the subnet mask is 255.0.0.0. That means your broadcast address is 10.255.255.255. Sending a packet to the broadcast address means any device on that subnet will receive the packet. So the target listens on whatever port it's using, the source machine sends out a broadcast, and the target responds by sending a unicast packet (e.g. 10.0.0.2 to 10.0.0.1) back to the source to advertise its presence. As far as protocols go, UDP is nice and simple, but doesn't offer any form of guarantee that a sent packet will arrive, so you'd probably need to hack together some form of send/acknowledge/repeat-if-scrambled/repeat type system. > [All of this is on-topic enough, but is it of interest to the majority? > Or is it something better taken to a mailing list for those interested > that's set up with the specific aim of bashing out some ideas and > hopefully getting something closer to realisation?] Jules, if you want a mailing list setting up, email me off-list and I'll set you one up on my server. Assuming you don't mind it running on Mailman, that is. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From derschjo at msu.edu Fri Oct 20 20:54:35 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 18:54:35 -0700 Subject: Looking for a VT100 keyboard Message-ID: <45397DDB.5070908@msu.edu> Just picked up a VT103 sans keyboard (and also unfortunately, sans any QBus hardware -- just an empty backplane.) First things first, I'd like to find a keyboard for this thing -- anyone in the Seattle area have a spare keyboard they'd be willing to part with? Otherwise I'll go the eBay route... Thanks, Josh From derschjo at msu.edu Fri Oct 20 21:00:59 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 19:00:59 -0700 Subject: Finding bad RAM chip on PDP11 M7551? In-Reply-To: <4533FA5C.8020109@compsys.to> References: <4532AE72.80006@msu.edu> <4533FA5C.8020109@compsys.to> Message-ID: <45397F5B.1020803@msu.edu> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Josh Dersch wrote: > >> I have a MicroPDP 11/73 I'm trying to get running again; it has a >> single M7551-AP memory board (1MB) which appears to have a stuck bit; >> the startup memory test fails with: >> >> Expected Data = 125252 >> Bad Data = 125253 >> Address = 01400010 >> >> Any ideas how to determine which RAM chip needs to be replaced based >> on the failing address? >> >> Thanks, >> Josh > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I don't have an installation guide, but I suspect that > it might be possible to reduce the available memory > until you are able to replace the stuck bit. > > Based on the bad memory address, I think that the first > 256 KBytes of memory are OK. If you set the end address > jumpers at 256 KBytes, then the start-up diagnostic should > ignore the rest of the memory. If you are able to get by > on 256 KBytes of memory for a while, that might solve the > problem for the moment. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > -- > If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail > address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk > e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be > obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the > 'at' with the four digits of the current year. > > > Thanks for the suggestion, but my (eventual) goal is to get 2.11BSD running on the /73, so I'll probably need more than 256k of memory working. I have a 512k board I could steal from my MicroVax I (in fact, I may just do that for the time being...), but I'd really like to repair the board I have at some point. Thanks again, Josh From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Oct 21 00:34:18 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 22:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 150 something for disk drive, how about $25,000 for a Kaypro? In-Reply-To: <4539AC3F.9050409@msm.umr.edu> References: <4539AC3F.9050409@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, jim stephens wrote: > It hasn't sold, but has two declied offers on it. I have heard of > overpricing, but this > is pretty much one of the highest I have ever seen. > > He claims serial number 000003 or such. Anyone know how kaypro > serialized their units? Is this really the third Kaypro-II. It isn't > an Apple 1, which would demand some sort of premium like this, however, > and I wonder if the S/N if it is for anything is for the "test set" he > says it is part of, rather than the unit. Hmm... My Kaypro is missing that metal thingy that props the case up. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 21 00:42:22 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:42:22 -0600 Subject: Finding bad RAM chip on PDP11 M7551? In-Reply-To: <45397F5B.1020803@msu.edu> References: <4532AE72.80006@msu.edu> <4533FA5C.8020109@compsys.to> <45397F5B.1020803@msu.edu> Message-ID: <4539B33E.1000106@jetnet.ab.ca> Josh Dersch wrote: > Thanks for the suggestion, but my (eventual) goal is to get 2.11BSD > running on the /73, so I'll probably need more than 256k of memory > working. I have a 512k board I could steal from my MicroVax I (in fact, > I may just do that for the time being...), but I'd really like to repair > the board I have at some point. A quick google gives 1 meg ram and separate I&D is needed for 2.11 BSD. > Thanks again, > Josh > > . > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 21 01:49:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:49:32 -0700 Subject: 150 something for disk drive, how about $25,000 for a Kaypro? In-Reply-To: References: <4539AC3F.9050409@msm.umr.edu>, Message-ID: <4539608C.24040.F943112@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Oct 2006 at 22:34, David Griffith wrote: > > He claims serial number 000003 or such. Anyone know how kaypro > > serialized their units? Is this really the third Kaypro-II. It isn't > > an Apple 1, which would demand some sort of premium like this, however, > > and I wonder if the S/N if it is for anything is for the "test set" he > > says it is part of, rather than the unit. Not that I'm suggesting that anyone do this, but for $25 grand, it'd be mighty tempting to fake a label. Heck, counterfeiters bleach and re-print sections of $1 bills to gain a lot less than that. Just saying, is all... Cheers, Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Oct 19 18:17:10 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:17:10 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Odd 8-bit ISA CD-ROM interface? In-Reply-To: <20061019102906.0b45e38f@SirToby.dinner41.de> References: <20061019102906.0b45e38f@SirToby.dinner41.de> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Oct 2006, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 19:10:32 -0500 (CDT) > Tothwolf wrote: > > > It should be supported under Linux or *BSD. > > At least NetBSD supports only the old Mitsumi CDROM controller: mcd(4). > Linux supported way more of those funky, proprietary IDE like CDROMs. > But most likely this junk was removed from (semi) recent kernels. Wouldn't surprise me really, from what I remember, a lot of the driver code was kludgey at best. I might have to pull out some of those old drives over the holidays and see what the current driver code looks like. Its been awhile since I did any kernel hacking anyway. > If you need a CDROM with a 8 bit ISA interface you may use a SCSI drive > with a ST-01 / ST-02 or NCR 53C400 SCSI adapter. Speaking of which, I unearthed an odd one myself a few weeks ago while sorting out drives. It is a external Hitachi drive with a special interface card. I never did manage to get it working under Linux or FreeBSD (no driver or docs). I'm not sure which box the card is in right now, but I did locate the drive again. Its built like a tank and unless I'm mistaken, its a single speed drive. From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Oct 21 01:40:35 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 23:40:35 -0700 Subject: Finding bad RAM chip on PDP11 M7551? In-Reply-To: <4539B33E.1000106@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4532AE72.80006@msu.edu> <4533FA5C.8020109@compsys.to> <45397F5B.1020803@msu.edu> <4539B33E.1000106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4539C0E3.3080008@msu.edu> woodelf wrote: > Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Thanks for the suggestion, but my (eventual) goal is to get 2.11BSD >> running on the /73, so I'll probably need more than 256k of memory >> working. I have a 512k board I could steal from my MicroVax I (in >> fact, I may just do that for the time being...), but I'd really like >> to repair the board I have at some point. > A quick google gives 1 meg ram and separate I&D is needed for 2.11 BSD. >> Thanks again, >> Josh >> >> . >> Interesting -- I got inspired tonight and I spent a few hours with VTServer getting 2.11BSD installed on the /73, with the 512k ram board installed -- it seems to run okay, though I haven't done much with it yet (Only have the root partition copied over, looks like getting the rest of the tar files installed will be more of a challenge...). Guess the 1mb ram requirement isn't strictly enforced -- maybe if I get _really_ crazy, I'll try it with 256k :). Thanks, Josh From ray at arachelian.com Sat Oct 21 05:44:41 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 06:44:41 -0400 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <4538E7CB.7020102@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <453774B4.25279.812F7FE@cclist.sydex.com>, <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk> <453798AC.31377.89F7742@cclist.sydex.com> <4538E7CB.7020102@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4539FA19.9080103@arachelian.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Sure - I wouldn't want that either, I'd expect the motor to only be > run during each track read, though. Whether starting and stopping the > motor n times to read a disk is a good idea or not I don't know - it's > more stress on the drive for sure, but whether it's sufficiently more > to warrant not doing it I don't know. > > What's the worst-case floppy rotation speed - 300rpm? So five > revolutions per second. Fastest transfer rate is 1Mbps (although > didn't some PS/2 systems manage two?) which in theory gives a maximum > of 200Kbits for a track. But with 8x oversampling that'll be 200KB of > data for a single sampled track read. So roughly 18 seconds per track, > given the port speeds you mentioned above. > > That's slooooow. Given the nature of the data though, it'd probably > compress (using something like LZW) reasonably well - but then if > driven by an old 8bit CPU it may be that any compression (or > decompression for write transfers) uses up any time saved at the > transfer stage. Sounds to me like the computer driving this needs to be reasonably fast, and needs to have lots of RAM and perhaps even a generously sized hard drive for post-read analysis. Perhaps designing a new floppy controller might be better? One that can get the analog signal from the R/W head directly? You might even be able to use a normal floppy controller to drive the head and motor, but duplicate the R/W head sensor from the floppy drive to an add-on card with a sensitive and fast 8 or 16 bit A/D converter. This way, only a quick, single pass over the floppy is needed, and you don't have to worry about varying the motor speed. If the r/w head is sensitive enough, and the A/D converter is fast enough, a single pass should suffice. Once the data is in RAM and then saved to hard disk, lots and lots of analysis can be done in software regardless of its format. Better yet, it should just be compressed and transferred over to another machine for analysis. The analysis would take a lot longer, but can be done in a batch. (i.e. if you have lots and lots of floppies to go through, in terms of human interaction time, you're better off scanning them in as quickly as possible, and then letting the machine process them overnight.) You'd probably want to scan half tracks as well as any extra tracks the physical drive head is capable of reaching, if you suspect that the disks are protected. Such a setup would be able to handle anything you throw at it and would even be able to recover data from damaged floppies. Well, not physically damaged floppies, but floppies where the sync marks or data are too weak to resolve in normal cases. From ray at arachelian.com Sat Oct 21 05:54:39 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 06:54:39 -0400 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <4538F446.7040508@philpem.me.uk> References: <4537CF03.1000500@yahoo.co.uk> <200610192013.k9JKD97U004672@hosting.monisys.ca> <4537E3AD.8020500@yahoo.co.uk> <4538F446.7040508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4539FC6F.4020806@arachelian.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > You send a packet to the broadcast address. > > Say your client is 10.0.0.1, and the target device is 10.0.0.2, and > the subnet mask is 255.0.0.0. That means your broadcast address is > 10.255.255.255. Sending a packet to the broadcast address means any > device on that subnet will receive the packet. So the target listens > on whatever port it's using, the source machine sends out a broadcast, > and the target responds by sending a unicast packet (e.g. 10.0.0.2 to > 10.0.0.1) back to the source to advertise its presence. > > As far as protocols go, UDP is nice and simple, but doesn't offer any > form of guarantee that a sent packet will arrive, so you'd probably > need to hack together some form of > send/acknowledge/repeat-if-scrambled/repeat type system. Keep it simple and open. Use protocols and code that already exist. HTTP, FTP, Samba and NFS servers come to mind. Use Linux or some sort of BSD. All the code is already built in. And yes, you can use DHCP with those. Reuse some older PC like a P2. Otherwise, you'll spend lots of time engineering the hardware AND the software. It'll be difficult enough just to write the software to get it to do the core task of imaging the disks in the first place. Don't make it more complex than it has to be. Don't be afraid of requiring a generic VGA monitor and a normal USB/AT keyboard for configuration. It greatly simplifies things to have them, and everyone has them already or they wouldn't be trying to image floppies in the first place. If you go with a custom black box design that lacks them, you'll wind up re-engineering lots and lots of kludges just to hide the fact that this is a computer. Treat it like a normal computer and slap some easy to use UI on top of it. Hell, use Firefox and a web server to drive the software. There are lots of wonderful tiny Linux distros that are well suited for this sort of thing. Keeping it as simple as possible and using what's already out there will save lots of time, effort, and headaches. If you try to invent your own protocols, you'll be working on the other stuff for half a year and still not be able to build something that's as robust and as flexible as reusing existing OS code. From ray at arachelian.com Sat Oct 21 05:59:17 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 06:59:17 -0400 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <453929F1.6060302@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk>, <45381500.903@philpem.me.uk> <45380B0D.1100.A5E3B73@cclist.sydex.com> <45391AEF.8010105@mdrconsult.com> <453929F1.6060302@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4539FD85.9050206@arachelian.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > If the device is the 'server', what's to set up? Plug it in, give it > an IP address (method to be determined), fire up the client software > and talk to it. Exactly! > I'm of the same mind there. I expect nearly everyone who will want > this can easily rustle up a DOS / Unix / OSX / whatever system, but > Windows is more problematic for some of us. Nah! Samba works beautifully. As does a USB port and formatting or mounting a FAT32 drive from under Linux. > That was the reason for my question about DHCP; I've almost > exclusively used static IP addresses for anything I've ever set up > (mainly because most of the time they've been servers), so my > knowledge of DHCP is lacking. > > I can't think of an easy way of doing that initial device > configuration in an Ethernet world, though; DIP switches and the like > requires a lot of them, but any other configuration seems to require > some other form of interface to 'kick start' the initial config. Simple enough. Don't try to build a specialized device. Reuse normal hardware and use something like Linux or FreeBSD. It has all that stuff built in. Support for Ethernet, USB, FireWire, TCP/IP, DHCP, FTP client and server, HTTP client and server, NFS client and server, Appletalk server, Samba, FAT-16, FAT32, etc. And the best part is you don't have to spend 6 months to a couple of years reinventing the wheel just to get that side of the project going. From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Oct 21 09:17:54 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:17:54 -0400 Subject: dec /34a issue (Solved) References: <00f801c6f3e5$7f70ff50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <000b01c6f51b$b4548d40$0100a8c0@screamer> Jay, Is this the 11/34 from my garage? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 9:05 PM Subject: Re: dec /34a issue (Solved) > O. Sharp wrote.... >> Boy, I wish I knew PDP-11 assembler better. Someday. :) > Yes, I do wish I knew it better. Then I may have caught the problem myself > ;) > >>> I'm certain I'm typing in the memory address test correctly. > And just to be precise, I was typing the program correctly. The website I > copied it from has it posted incorrectly. I'll email the person who runs > the website to make a correction. > >> Er, is "br loop2" numerically correct here? It, er, smells wrong. :) > I wouldn't have likely caught that. Patrick was right - thanks! It does in > fact pass the test. > > Now that I've got enough confidence in the machine being somewhat > functional, I'm gonna grab an RL02 and see if I can boot :) > > Thanks for all the input folks! > > Jay > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 21 09:57:50 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 09:57:50 -0500 Subject: dec /34a issue (Solved) References: <00f801c6f3e5$7f70ff50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <000b01c6f51b$b4548d40$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <000c01c6f521$51c2e1d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Bob wrote... > Is this the 11/34 from my garage? Mostly, yes. I acquired three 11/34 carcasses in varying states of wholeness - yours was by far the most complete. The machine I'm bringing up now is mostly the one from your garage, but in a different BA11 (the same front panel however). The leftover parts of the remaining /34 will be offered to the list or pitched. There's not much leftover though, as I'll want the regulators in the remaining chassis/panel for spares. Odd - it boots RT11. It passes some diagnostics. Other diagnostics I can't tell for sure if it's passing correctly due to lack of documentation on the diagnostics. I suspect it's failing something though. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 21 10:07:27 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:07:27 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com> Message-ID: <001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> You wrote... > In general I don't believe an interpreted language can beat a compiled > language. Interpreting tokens or keywords is just far slower than > compiled code, unless the compiler is severely broken. (Which I wouldn't > call a fair comparison.) In theory, you are right. In practice I believe you're making too much of a generalization. In school they typically teach that interpreters are always slower in order to explain and drive home the differences. In the real world however, that's quite simply not always the case. I've written both professionally, and I've seen instances that would obviously suprise you. Now if you're comparing interpreted languages vs. written by hand assembler, I could agree with you. But when a compiler is the one generating the object, well, you may be suprised at how closely a interpreted stack machine can get to the ratio of required hardware instructions given the platform. Jay From jonas at otter.se Sat Oct 21 05:37:32 2006 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:37:32 +0200 Subject: Faraday cages Message-ID: <4539F86C.3090005@otter.se> A Faraday cage need not be made of solid metal, it depends on which frequencies you want to keep out (or in). The important thing is that any holes need to be smaller than any wavelength you want blocked. Also, slots and holes can act as antennae, so there are other restrictions as well, but essentially, the idea is to keep the holes small enough. From jonas.otter at gmail.com Sat Oct 21 05:37:56 2006 From: jonas.otter at gmail.com (Jonas Otter) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:37:56 +0200 Subject: Faraday cages Message-ID: <4539F884.4070602@gmail.com> A Faraday cage need not be made of solid metal, it depends on which frequencies you want to keep out (or in). The important thing is that any holes need to be smaller than any wavelength you want blocked. Also, slots and holes can act as antennae, so there are other restrictions as well, but essentially, the idea is to keep the holes small enough. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Oct 21 10:35:13 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:35:13 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com> <001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com> Jay West wrote: > In theory, you are right. In practice I believe you're making too much > of a generalization. In school they typically teach that interpreters > are always slower in order to explain and drive home the differences. In > the real world however, that's quite simply not always the case. I've > written both professionally, and I've seen instances that would > obviously suprise you. Now if you're comparing interpreted languages vs. > written by hand assembler, I could agree with you. But when a compiler > is the one generating the object, well, you may be suprised at how > closely a interpreted stack machine can get to the ratio of required > hardware instructions given the platform. > > Jay > I know of stack machines in theory only, so I'll take your word on it. None of the hardware I've used in the last 20 years (Z80, 6502, 6800, x86, PPC, etc.) would qualify as stack machines, and hence my lack of faith. :-) Mike From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 21 10:48:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 08:48:07 -0700 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: , <001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4539DEC7.8532.118148BD@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Oct 2006 at 10:07, Jay West wrote: > You wrote... > > In general I don't believe an interpreted language can beat a compiled > > language. Interpreting tokens or keywords is just far slower than > > compiled code, unless the compiler is severely broken. (Which I wouldn't > > call a fair comparison.) > > In theory, you are right. In practice I believe you're making too much of a > generalization. It all depends on the language and the work to be performed. Certainly, "tokenizing" can cut down on scanning time without affecting program readability, but that's more a form of input editing than compilation. If the operations performed by the language are complex or time- consuming, then the interpretation overhead is just a small portion of the overall execution time and doesn't matter very much. For example, given the nature of operations in a language such as SNOBOL4, I wouldn't expect that the difference between interpretation and compilation would amount to much. The point being that there's more to a compiler or interpreter than the symbol manipulation. Clever run-time routines can make a huge difference. Consider another common statement, "Native code is faster than P-code". Maybe not... Way back when in the 8-bit world, I was on a project to do a commercial BASIC. We were given free reign of choices, from strict interpretation to compilation to native machine code. Given the operations that BASIC programs tended to perform (lots of floating-point math, string manipulation and I/O) and a requirement that the run-time be multi-user, we determined that compile-to- machine-code had no special benefits and would actually be a detriment (hard to relocate dynamically and lengthy), we used a incremental compile to a P-code and concentrated on making math and string operations very efficient. The vindication came sometime later when we were showing our system at one of the trade shows (Comdex/ NCC? -- I don't remember) and Microsoft was demoing their brand-new compiled Basic-80. A bunch of attendees decided to run benchmarks among the various BASICs. We blew M$ out of the water--in spite of their compile-to-machine code approach, their string handling was dreadful. We actually sold quite a few systems with multitasking (up to 5 way) on a single 3.5 MHz 8085 running the usual suite of small business apps, most of which were ported from the MCBA suite for a DG Nova. Cheers, Chuck From ray at arachelian.com Sat Oct 21 11:07:57 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:07:57 -0400 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com> <001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com> Message-ID: <453A45DD.4060106@arachelian.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I know of stack machines in theory only, so I'll take your word on it. > > None of the hardware I've used in the last 20 years (Z80, 6502, 6800, > x86, PPC, etc.) would qualify as stack machines, and hence my lack of > faith. :-) Stack based machines can be very fast, and depending on their design much faster than IA32/IA64. The idea is to use the stack instead of registers, or as registers, and to have a large stack. Most of the stack lives in L1 cache, and is almost as fast as a large RISC register file. Since C/C++/Java and the like do rely upon the stack heavily, fast stack access is going to buy you a lot more wins. The next closest thing is register windows as used by SPARC. The reason for this is that if you look at compiled C, you have a function calling another, which in turn calls another which may invoke an interrupt to talk to the OS. At each layer, each function is popping a bunch of parameters off the stack which were passed to it, doing some work, then pushing a bunch of parameters onto the stack before calling the next function. All the writes/reads to the stack are the huge bottleneck. Even worst, if you have a bunch of wrapper libraries, you'll find that the function takes its parameters, and passes them onto the functions that it in turn calls! This means that you duplicate the data on the stack several times! See: http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/media/Eric%20LaForest:%20Next%20Generation%20Stack%20Computing.html There's a large video presentation explaining some of these architectures. The idea is that for General Purpose registers, you don't talk to actual registers, but rather to the stack. i.e. referencing r0 goes to the memory pointed at by the stack pointer, r1 is addressed at r0+32 (or 64 bits) off the SP, r2 and so on. If you have a CPU that speeds that whole stack song and dance up in any way whatosoever, you have a big win. This is one reason why when you have a CPU intensive application, you want to go with a SPARC platform, not with IA32/64. On SPARC you almost don't have to push anything on the stack as long as you have less than 6 parameters to your functions. It splits up the register file into Global, In, Local, and Out. When you call a function the Out registers are instantly mapped (not copied) the function's In registers. So function calls are very very fast. (At some point, you run out of registers - either an overflow or underflow, but that generates an IRQ which allows the OS to copy or restore the register file to/from somewhere in memory.) see: http://www.sics.se/~psm/sparcstack.html https://www.cs.tcd.ie/Martin.Emms/Logic/Sparc/SparcNotes/node8.html http://www.cs.clemson.edu/~mark/subroutines/sparc.html In my own personal experience, the only machine that I've ever come across that was a real stack based architecture was the AT&T Eo which used the Hobbit processor. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 21 11:26:16 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:26:16 -0600 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com> <001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <453A4A28.4080406@jetnet.ab.ca> Jay West wrote: > In theory, you are right. In practice I believe you're making too much > of a generalization. In school they typically teach that interpreters > are always slower in order to explain and drive home the differences. In > the real world however, that's quite simply not always the case. I've > written both professionally, and I've seen instances that would > obviously suprise you. Now if you're comparing interpreted languages vs. > written by hand assembler, I could agree with you. But when a compiler > is the one generating the object, well, you may be suprised at how > closely a interpreted stack machine can get to the ratio of required > hardware instructions given the platform. Also at the time most floating point was done in software for the smaller machines. The ratio on integer math 16 bit to floating point may be the factor in most interpreted lanquges being the about the same speed as compiled ones. BASIC/09 for the 6809 was nice in that you could have both versons compiled or interpreted from the same source. PASCAL was nice too in that you had virtual memory ( crummy with a floppy ) so you could run larger programs than 64k. > Jay > . > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 21 11:21:47 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 11:21:47 -0500 Subject: UK rescue: Domesday + Acorn stuff (Camberley / Gillingham, Dorset) Message-ID: <453A491B.70307@yahoo.co.uk> I've just been contacted by a chap who posted to one of the Acorn usenet groups the other day - he has a range of stuff available, including a Domesday system player / disc / manual, 3 x Master 128 machines, and a selection of Cambridge Workstation software and manuals. Unfortunately his deadline for moving it is Monday, and all the people who have responded to his usenet post have let him down. Master 128 machines are common enough, but the rest is reasonably rare. Is anyone able to rescue this lot either for the museum, or for themselves? Whilst we'd welcome the Domesday and Cambridge Workstation stuff at the museum, I'm more interested in the rarer bits not going to landfill than anything. The guy lives in Gillingham (the Dorset one, not any of the others) and works in Camberley, so it seems like a pickup can be sorted out from either location. Original usenet post with a more comprehensive list is here: http://tinyurl.com/y4qv5t If anyone can help, that'd be great and I can put you in touch with the owner; unfortunately there's not a lot more I can do from the wrong side of the pond, and our one guy who lives close to Camberley is away right now... :-( cheers Jules -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 21 11:30:27 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:30:27 -0600 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com> <001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com> Message-ID: <453A4B23.5080602@jetnet.ab.ca> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > None of the hardware I've used in the last 20 years (Z80, 6502, 6800, > x86, PPC, etc.) would qualify as stack machines, and hence my lack of > faith. :-) Well it is hard view them as general purpose computers, more designed for simple character handleing or simple control. The x86 I still am wondering is a 8080 hacked to 16 bits or not? > > Mike > > . > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 21 11:42:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 09:42:43 -0700 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: <453A45DD.4060106@arachelian.com> References: , <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com>, <453A45DD.4060106@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4539EB93.8699.11B347A6@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Oct 2006 at 12:07, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Stack based machines can be very fast, and depending on their design > much faster than IA32/IA64. The idea is to use the stack instead of > registers, or as registers, and to have a large stack. Most of the > stack lives in L1 cache, and is almost as fast as a large RISC register > file. ...and at some point, the stack overlows the L1 cache and degrades to memory-to-memory speed, no? While it's true that stack-based architectures can provide a lot of bang-for-the-buck, like single-accumulator machines, it's difficult to leverage parallelsim to improve performance. I'd venture that it's awfully difficult to design a stack machine that can compete with a 3-address architecture with a large register file, multiple pipelined functional units and instruction scheduling. Would you consider the Burroughs B5000 to be a stack machine? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 21 11:57:19 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:57:19 -0600 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: <4539EB93.8699.11B347A6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com>, <453A45DD.4060106@arachelian.com> <4539EB93.8699.11B347A6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <453A516F.20006@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > While it's true that stack-based architectures can provide a lot of > bang-for-the-buck, like single-accumulator machines, it's difficult > to leverage parallelsim to improve performance. Well all the stack machines I have seen are FORTH or PASCAL or SMALL-C. The code generation is simple 1 pass recusive complier. Once you stop and do better code generation your stack access is cleaned up. > I'd venture that it's awfully difficult to design a stack machine > that can compete with a 3-address architecture with a large register > file, multiple pipelined functional units and instruction scheduling. That is because your stack is unrolled into the register file. > Would you consider the Burroughs B5000 to be a stack machine? > Cheers, > Chuck > > . > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 21 12:02:59 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 13:02:59 -0400 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <453A4B23.5080602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com> <001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com> <453A4B23.5080602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Oct 21, 2006, at 12:30 PM, woodelf wrote: >> None of the hardware I've used in the last 20 years (Z80, 6502, >> 6800, x86, PPC, etc.) would qualify as stack machines, and hence >> my lack of faith. :-) > > Well it is hard view them as general purpose computers, more > designed for simple character handleing or simple control. > The x86 I still am wondering is a 8080 hacked to 16 bits or not? It definitely is...look at the architecture, it's glaringly obvious. I wasn't aware that anyone wondered about or doubted that at all. Unless of course you're talking about the chip design itself, which I'm sure was a from-scratch design. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Oct 21 12:19:29 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:19:29 -0700 Subject: Finding bad RAM chip on PDP11 M7551? In-Reply-To: <4539C0E3.3080008@msu.edu> References: <4532AE72.80006@msu.edu> <4533FA5C.8020109@compsys.to> <45397F5B.1020803@msu.edu> <4539B33E.1000106@jetnet.ab.ca> <4539C0E3.3080008@msu.edu> Message-ID: <453A56A1.2020700@shiresoft.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > woodelf wrote: >> Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>> Thanks for the suggestion, but my (eventual) goal is to get 2.11BSD >>> running on the /73, so I'll probably need more than 256k of memory >>> working. I have a 512k board I could steal from my MicroVax I (in >>> fact, I may just do that for the time being...), but I'd really like >>> to repair the board I have at some point. >> A quick google gives 1 meg ram and separate I&D is needed for 2.11 BSD. >>> Thanks again, >>> Josh >>> >>> . >>> > Interesting -- I got inspired tonight and I spent a few hours with > VTServer getting 2.11BSD installed on the /73, with the 512k ram board > installed -- it seems to run okay, though I haven't done much with it > yet (Only have the root partition copied over, looks like getting the > rest of the tar files installed will be more of a challenge...). > Guess the 1mb ram requirement isn't strictly enforced -- maybe if I > get _really_ crazy, I'll try it with 256k :). > VTserver is different from 2.11BSD. VTserver will run in 192K of memory. The 1MB for 2.11BSD is no joke. It really takes *a lot* of memory (for a PDP-11) to run. However, I'm running it on a 4MB 11/70 and it's quite happy! :-) > Thanks, > Josh > > -- TTFN - Guy From ray at arachelian.com Sat Oct 21 12:24:38 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 13:24:38 -0400 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: <4539EB93.8699.11B347A6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com>, <453A45DD.4060106@arachelian.com> <4539EB93.8699.11B347A6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <453A57D6.5010606@arachelian.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > ...and at some point, the stack overlows the L1 cache and degrades to > memory-to-memory speed, no? > Except that it doesn't matter. They'll fall off out of the cache anyway, and the cache will now see a new area of memory, so the very early calls are no longer in cache, so you get a few cache misses. But the stuff the CPU's currently working on is almost always in cache. Once you return back to the beginning, you have another cache miss, and a reload. You can engineer the stack cache to work with this in mind. i.e. fetch lots and lots at once and don't have too many cache lines. The stack can and should have it's own separate cache, just like some arch's split data/code caches. As long as the cache part of it does lazy writes back to memory and is optimized to cache a stack rather than general memory, it'll fly. > While it's true that stack-based architectures can provide a lot of > bang-for-the-buck, like single-accumulator machines, it's difficult > to leverage parallelsim to improve performance. > Multi-cores would work, each with their own stack caches. The odds are that two cores will never access the same stack, so it should work nicely. You can even dictate that this should never happen and let the OS deal with checking for the stack ranges to ensure it. > I'd venture that it's awfully difficult to design a stack machine > that can compete with a 3-address architecture with a large register > file, multiple pipelined functional units and instruction scheduling. > > Maybe. But unless the above machine uses register windows, or has some way to use the registers to pass data between functions. The expense is that using an L1 cache as a register file means that you need lots of L1 and to make it as fast as possible. At some point just having lots of registers doesn't help you if the compiled function doesn't use them. On context changes you always have to save all the registers to memory, so you'd lose on any interrupt. On the stack machine, you only have to flush the dirty cache lines, and you're done. Don't have to save very many registers at all! (Likely just PC, SP, and status registers.) It would also depend on the type of code you run there. Hand tuned assembly that almost never touches the stack would not benefit at all on a stack machine: the kind of stuff you'd do where you have a single purpose real time controller with very little RAM for example. But for generic C/C++/Pascal/OOP code, well designed stack architectures should run beautifully. The next big slowdown will be threading, as switching between threads will require flushing the stack (and all the other caches.) A multicore design can help eliminate a lot of the thread caused context switches, and besides, you'd have the same problem on any architecture there. IMHO, I think larger register windows would win over a stack machine however, especially when you have a function call chain where one fn passes it's operands to another fn which repeats this. Silicon wise, you'd spend about the same on the stack arch as you would on the register window arch. The flushes to memory would be less often on a register window arch, but would take longer to complete, while on the stack, there'd be more of them, but they'd be more spread out. > Would you consider the Burroughs B5000 to be a stack machine? > I'm not familiar with that machine. What's it look like? From ray at arachelian.com Sat Oct 21 12:46:06 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 13:46:06 -0400 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: <4539EB93.8699.11B347A6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com>, <453A45DD.4060106@arachelian.com> <4539EB93.8699.11B347A6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <453A5CDE.6080101@arachelian.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Would you consider the Burroughs B5000 to be a stack machine? > YES! From what I've read here, it's a beauty! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_B5000#Stack_architecture From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 21 12:46:07 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 10:46:07 -0700 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: <4539EB93.8699.11B347A6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Stack Machines >Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 09:42:43 -0700 > >On 21 Oct 2006 at 12:07, Ray Arachelian wrote: > > > Stack based machines can be very fast, and depending on their design > > much faster than IA32/IA64. The idea is to use the stack instead of > > registers, or as registers, and to have a large stack. Most of the > > stack lives in L1 cache, and is almost as fast as a large RISC register > > file. > >...and at some point, the stack overlows the L1 cache and degrades to >memory-to-memory speed, no? Hi It would be difficult to write an application that would overflow a stack in todays L1 sizes. Still, efficient background stack caching methods can easily hide all but the most agressive stack useage. > >While it's true that stack-based architectures can provide a lot of >bang-for-the-buck, like single-accumulator machines, it's difficult >to leverage parallelsim to improve performance. This is generally true but then it is because the stack machine is handling data and instruction at close to optimal speed to start with. > >I'd venture that it's awfully difficult to design a stack machine >that can compete with a 3-address architecture with a large register >file, multiple pipelined functional units and instruction scheduling. Most Forth stack machines are running 3 or more data paths with address at the same clock cycle. It can also make more effective use of instruction fetch from physical memory. Usually several instructions can be fetched in a single word access. a single 64 bit fetch could almost include a simple program. Program size reduction means more efficient use of L1 or L2 caches. Also no need to translate X86 instructions into a more RISC like instruction set for execution. Another thought is that a vary fast stack engine has a small foot print on silicon. Do a search for a "sea of processors". Comparing a single stack processor to something like todays 64 bit machines could be better compared by looking at power or size per operation. Something like a server could be more efficient handling many task in parallel. Dwight > >Would you consider the Burroughs B5000 to be a stack machine? I don't know enough about this machine to make a judgement. > >Cheers, >Chuck > _________________________________________________________________ Use your PC to make calls at very low rates https://voiceoam.pcs.v2s.live.com/partnerredirect.aspx From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Oct 21 13:17:38 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:17:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK rescue: Domesday + Acorn stuff (Camberley / Gillingham, Dorset) In-Reply-To: <453A491B.70307@yahoo.co.uk> References: <453A491B.70307@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1363.192.168.0.4.1161454658.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, October 21, 2006 5:21 pm, Jules Richardson said: > > I've just been contacted by a chap who posted to one of the Acorn usenet > groups the other day - he has a range of stuff available, including a > Domesday > system player / disc / manual, 3 x Master 128 machines, and a selection of > Cambridge Workstation software and manuals. I HAVE to go and get that lot, please don't tell me he lives in Dorset and drives to Camberley to work so I can't just drive to Camberley on monday and get everything? -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Oct 21 13:22:19 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:22:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK rescue: Domesday + Acorn stuff (Camberley / Gillingham, Dorset) In-Reply-To: <453A491B.70307@yahoo.co.uk> References: <453A491B.70307@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1631.192.168.0.4.1161454939.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, October 21, 2006 5:21 pm, Jules Richardson said: > > I've just been contacted by a chap who posted to one of the Acorn usenet > groups the other day - he has a range of stuff available, including a > Domesday > system player / disc / manual, 3 x Master 128 machines, and a selection of > Cambridge Workstation software and manuals. Gah, he lives about 10 minutes from where I was mon/tues/wed last week! We've got onsite engineers in Southampton so I can ask them to go and pick everything up for us and then ship it all up to me :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 21 13:53:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 11:53:53 -0700 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: <453A57D6.5010606@arachelian.com> References: , <4539EB93.8699.11B347A6@cclist.sydex.com>, <453A57D6.5010606@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <453A0A51.8981.122B5BE8@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Oct 2006 at 13:24, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On context changes you always have to save all the registers to memory, > so you'd lose on any interrupt. That's the bonehead way of doing things. For the way it's done right, take a look at the S/360 calling sequence--the called routine uses the STM instruction to save just the registers that will be used by it. I've worked with 3-address machines with 256 registers of 64 bits. If you're working with even a moderately-sized subroutine under those circumstances, the entire set of local variables will usually fit in the register file A smart compiler or programmer can even segment the variable set out into dynamic and static variables, so the smallest part of the register set is saved upon exit. The point is, that no matter how one touts the benefits of a cache as being able to substitute for a fast register file, it's a false claim. A cache can never have the information about the nature of a program's behavior that the programmer or compiler can--it's too far removed from the actual program context and must rely on history for what belongs in the cache and what doesn't. I could also make the same claim about virtual memory systems, but then I'd be viewed as too much of an anachronism because EVERYBODY knows that virtual memory is best, right? > I'm not familiar with that machine. What's it look like? It's one of the classics in big-iron architecture and the darling of computer-science professors everywhere. Here's a description: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_B5000 But the fact is that even with attached FORTRAN coprocessors and vector boxes, not even a BSP could out-benchmark a CDC Cyber or Cray I on a pure computational load. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Oct 21 14:10:35 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 13:10:35 -0600 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: <453A0A51.8981.122B5BE8@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4539EB93.8699.11B347A6@cclist.sydex.com>, <453A57D6.5010606@arachelian.com> <453A0A51.8981.122B5BE8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <453A70AB.70300@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burroughs_B5000 > > But the fact is that even with attached FORTRAN coprocessors and > vector boxes, not even a BSP could out-benchmark a CDC Cyber or Cray > I on a pure computational load. But remember FORTRAN uses direct addressing any machine that uses local memory like a stack machine has several hidden additions just to calculate your address. That is the price you pay for local adressing. > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > . > From fm.arnold at gmx.net Sat Oct 21 14:32:55 2006 From: fm.arnold at gmx.net (Frank Arnold) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 21:32:55 +0200 Subject: DEC 57-27889-01 Chip, what was it used in? In-Reply-To: <200610210615.k9L6FB8n042545@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200610210615.k9L6FB8n042545@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Hi, someone offers on Ebay this chip-carrier (#130038367943) It looks like the CIS-option fot the 11/23B and 11/24 processors, but there are only 5 chips on it. Who knows this piece of HW, what was it used for in which devices? Thanks, Frank -- Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: - I have preferences. - You have biases. - He/She has prejudices. From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Oct 21 16:17:32 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:17:32 -0400 Subject: dec /34a issue (Solved) References: <00f801c6f3e5$7f70ff50$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP><000b01c6f51b$b4548d40$0100a8c0@screamer> <000c01c6f521$51c2e1d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <001901c6f556$53a71810$0100a8c0@screamer> There are 3 more RL-01 packs that were left behind. Some of the packs you have (and some left behind) have the OMSI Pascal compiler for RT-11. I also found the ribbon cable and bulkhead fixture that goes between the RL-11 board and the RL drive cables. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 10:57 AM Subject: Re: dec /34a issue (Solved) > Bob wrote... >> Is this the 11/34 from my garage? > > Mostly, yes. I acquired three 11/34 carcasses in varying states of > wholeness - yours was by far the most complete. The machine I'm bringing > up now is mostly the one from your garage, but in a different BA11 (the > same front panel however). The leftover parts of the remaining /34 will be > offered to the list or pitched. There's not much leftover though, as I'll > want the regulators in the remaining chassis/panel for spares. > > Odd - it boots RT11. It passes some diagnostics. Other diagnostics I can't > tell for sure if it's passing correctly due to lack of documentation on > the diagnostics. I suspect it's failing something though. > > Jay > From ray at arachelian.com Sat Oct 21 15:00:43 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 16:00:43 -0400 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: <453A0A51.8981.122B5BE8@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4539EB93.8699.11B347A6@cclist.sydex.com>, <453A57D6.5010606@arachelian.com> <453A0A51.8981.122B5BE8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <453A7C6B.5000307@arachelian.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Oct 2006 at 13:24, Ray Arachelian wrote: > > >> On context changes you always have to save all the registers to memory, >> so you'd lose on any interrupt. >> > > That's the bonehead way of doing things. For the way it's done > right, take a look at the S/360 calling sequence--the called routine > uses the STM instruction to save just the registers that will be used > by it. > Note that by context change, I mean switching from one process to another, or from one thread to another, not whilst making a function call! Obviously, no one who is writing efficient assembly would save ALL of the registers around a function call. On an interrupt, you need to switch from userland code to supervisor code to handle the interrupts. You can delay processing by having a small ISR which does very little work and schedules something else to run, but in the end, at some point, you need to switch from one process to another, and doing so requires saving all of the registers. With a stack architecture, you need to flush the stack cache and save only 3-4 registers, (PC, SP, SR) and they can be saved into the process table itself, making context switches cheaper. > I've worked with 3-address machines with 256 registers of 64 bits. > If you're working with even a moderately-sized subroutine under those > circumstances, the entire set of local variables will usually fit in > the register file A smart compiler or programmer can even segment > the variable set out into dynamic and static variables, so the > smallest part of the register set is saved upon exit. > That depends on your code and your optimizer. If you have a lot of function calls that the optimizer can't inline, it won't be as efficient as a stack machine. If you have a big blob of code in a single function that does a lot of floating point, or even integer math, then a stack machine will lose. Also, does your 3-address machine have a way of indexing into registers such that r0 is one register, but if you make a subroutine/function call, r0 is another register? If not you need to save that data somewhere before making the call, and you wind up doing a lot of register shuffling to do it. Either that, or your compiler has to inline a lot of the commonly used functions and assign them different registers from the file. (i.e. it has to treat as if function calls were to nested functions and inline them.) > The point is, that no matter how one touts the benefits of a cache as > being able to substitute for a fast register file, it's a false > claim. A cache can never have the information about the nature of a > program's behavior that the programmer or compiler can--it's too far > removed from the actual program context and must rely on history for > what belongs in the cache and what doesn't. > The stack cache doesn't need any of that information though. That's what's nice about the register windowed and stack machines: It also saves the compiler a lot of headaches in register scheduling and optimizing code. Why would it be any faster if it did? I can see how temporary values that are discarded would wastefully get written back to main memory, but beyond that, its not slower than a large register file. You could even build the stack machine such that if the SP indicates that it returned, any dirty cache entries beyond the SP are thrown away, thus eliminating a lot of those wasted writes. (You'd have to ensure that the return value is not thrown away by placing it somewhere safe first, but that's not hard to do.) BTW: there's nothing inside a stack machine that prevents it from also being a 3-address machine. :-) The only requirement a stack machine is in treating the stack as a register file and optimizing the hell out of the stack cache in terms of how it accesses memory. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 21 16:02:07 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 14:02:07 -0700 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <45399306.7070201@brutman.com> Message-ID: >From: "Michael B. Brutman" > ---snip--- >In general I don't believe an interpreted language can beat a compiled >language. Interpreting tokens or keywords is just far slower than compiled >code, unless the compiler is severely broken. (Which I wouldn't call a >fair comparison.) > This would depend on how effectively memory band width was used. With todays multicore processors, it is quite possible to interpret faster than fetching piles of code through a shared North bridge. Conpaction ratios would determine how well it might work. This assumes that the interpreter can stay in cache. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 21 15:39:19 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 13:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com> <00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20061021133720.O11243@shell.lmi.net> > Someone wrote.... > > I just had a long running argument with a clown that insisted that > > interpreted BASIC on a PCjr was as fast as compiled BASIC because the > > original BASIC compiler wasn't up to snuff in his opinion. A simple "Sieve of Erastothanes" benchmark ran faster in 5150 interpreted BASIC than it did with Microsoft's original PC FORTRAN compiler. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 21 15:43:23 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 13:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <45399306.7070201@brutman.com> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com> <00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20061021134147.L11243@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 20 Oct 2006, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > For this discussion the PCjr has the same interpreted BASIC as the IBM > PC. And there is no way on Earth that the interpreted BASIC on an IBM > 5150 or PCjr is nearly as fast as compiled BASIC. It all depends on how poorly optimized the code is for BASCOM. Were you working with integers, or with the default single precision float? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 21 15:37:00 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 13:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <453929F1.6060302@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk>, <45381500.903@philpem.me.uk> <45380B0D.1100.A5E3B73@cclist.sydex.com> <45391AEF.8010105@mdrconsult.com> <453929F1.6060302@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061021133258.J11243@shell.lmi.net> > > 6) Git 'er dun. > For sure... > I'd love for someone to Just Do This. Providing it's cheap I don't really mind > how it's implemented either; I'd rather have something than nothing. What I > don't want to do is pay 'too much' for something that doesn't do what's needed > though, or is completely inflexible. > It's probably worth exploring ideas for a couple of weeks, though, just to > see what comes of it. After that, hopefully someone can just get on with it :) How long does it TAKE to bolt a drive and board into a case????? It already exists, it is DONE, and the first time that we did it, it took less than an hour start to finish to build the entire device. How can anybody see an Ampro Little Board, and NOT immediately realize that there, sitting in front of you, IS the great mythical external drive?? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 21 15:31:56 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 13:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <4538E7CB.7020102@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <453774B4.25279.812F7FE@cclist.sydex.com>, <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk> <453798AC.31377.89F7742@cclist.sydex.com> <4538E7CB.7020102@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061021131547.G10665@shell.lmi.net> > I'm thinking that the "box built from junk PC bits" needs more investigation > (would make it easy to provide Ethernet support!). It depends what people > want, though - do they want a box to do data recovery from various floppy > media (which means a selection of drive types plugged in at once), or do they > want a backpack-like single drive solution (which implies they want something > compact, and the bulk of a scrap PC motherboard + PSU is too big)? So, NOBODY remembers that these devices WERE commercially available?? In ~1987, there was an aftermarket "external drive for reading PC and CP/M diskettes" being sold for the Macintosh. EXACTLY what we're talking about. It was a full height 5.25" case, with a 1/2 height 360K drive. The remainder of the case held an Ampro Little Board. And nothing else. There was a floppy used to "start-up" the "drive", along with software on the Mac. The software on the Mac was, of course, a simple terminal program. OB_ reminesce: there two two formats misspelled in their format list. Both were ones that had previously been misspelled (and later corrected) on the XenoCopy format list. I have an Ampro Little Board, but it is in an Ampro case, not disguised as an "external drive for reading diskettes", and I promised it to somebody (if/when I dig it out, and remember who I promised it to) The Quark Megatel (80186?), (or OQO!), might be a better choice for the guts of the device, due to software availability. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 21 17:24:54 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 18:24:54 -0400 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <20061021133258.J11243@shell.lmi.net> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk>, <45381500.903@philpem.me.uk> <45380B0D.1100.A5E3B73@cclist.sydex.com> <45391AEF.8010105@mdrconsult.com> <453929F1.6060302@yahoo.co.uk> <20061021133258.J11243@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1CBD1097-4BA3-4D3D-A273-2E72D25E601A@neurotica.com> On Oct 21, 2006, at 4:37 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > How can anybody see an Ampro Little Board, and NOT immediately realize > that there, sitting in front of you, IS the great mythical external > drive?? Have you found a stash of Ampro Little Boards? If so, please share. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Oct 21 16:13:27 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 14:13:27 -0700 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <453961CB.3090103@arachelian.com> Message-ID: >From: Ray Arachelian > > >The platters are very well protected by the metal case. There are holes >for air, (hard drives don't like working in a vacuum or low air >pressure) and of course holes for the control/data cables, so it's not a >perfect Faraday cage, but it's close enough. Hi The main issue for drive is magnetic fields. Surprisingly, the write is more sensative than the read to stray field. This is because during writes, general bias one way or the other effects the amplitude of the signal. Reading is looking for edges and bias has little effect. Actually erasing would take a very strong magnetic field from any distance to the drive( inverse square law ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Add a Yahoo! contact to Windows Live Messenger for a chance to win a free trip! http://www.imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/yahoo/default.aspx?locale=en-us&hmtagline From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 21 17:54:31 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 15:54:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <1CBD1097-4BA3-4D3D-A273-2E72D25E601A@neurotica.com> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk>, <45381500.903@philpem.me.uk> <45380B0D.1100.A5E3B73@cclist.sydex.com> <45391AEF.8010105@mdrconsult.com> <453929F1.6060302@yahoo.co.uk> <20061021133258.J11243@shell.lmi.net> <1CBD1097-4BA3-4D3D-A273-2E72D25E601A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20061021155113.R11243@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 21 Oct 2006, Dave McGuire wrote: > Have you found a stash of Ampro Little Boards? If so, please > share. :) Sorry, I have to apologize; I didn't realize that they had become rare. There were at least a half a dozen different brands of miniature motherboards in that form factor. Are they all rare now? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 21 17:58:24 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 18:58:24 -0400 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <20061021155113.R11243@shell.lmi.net> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk>, <45381500.903@philpem.me.uk> <45380B0D.1100.A5E3B73@cclist.sydex.com> <45391AEF.8010105@mdrconsult.com> <453929F1.6060302@yahoo.co.uk> <20061021133258.J11243@shell.lmi.net> <1CBD1097-4BA3-4D3D-A273-2E72D25E601A@neurotica.com> <20061021155113.R11243@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1D512E5E-76BE-4EE2-A117-7F7DA5C30AF1@neurotica.com> On Oct 21, 2006, at 6:54 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Have you found a stash of Ampro Little Boards? If so, please >> share. :) > > Sorry, I have to apologize; > I didn't realize that they had become rare. Well I'm not sure if I'd call them "rare", but I certainly haven't had much luck finding one. My primary effort (along these lines) has been to find a Ferguson Big Board, but I've been halfheartedly looking for a Little Board for quite a while as well. > There were at least a half a dozen different brands of miniature > motherboards in that form factor. Are they all rare now? Well, the PC-ish ones certainly aren't; I've got a few of those in my closet and they show up on eBay all the time. The CP/M ones, well, I'm an old CP/M hack (from when it was "modern") and I've never even seen one in the flesh. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 21 18:17:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 16:17:32 -0700 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: <453A7C6B.5000307@arachelian.com> References: , <453A0A51.8981.122B5BE8@cclist.sydex.com>, <453A7C6B.5000307@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <453A481C.239.131CB9B1@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Oct 2006 at 16:00, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On an interrupt, you need to switch from userland code to supervisor code to handle the interrupts. > > You can delay processing by having a small ISR which does very little > work and schedules something else to run, but in the end, at some point, > you need to switch from one process to another, and doing so requires > saving all of the registers. With a stack architecture, you need to > flush the stack cache and save only 3-4 registers, (PC, SP, SR) and they > can be saved into the process table itself, making context switches cheaper. You pay the price with context switches regardless at some point. You'll eat up cycles flushing the cache or storing registers, your choice. > > I've worked with 3-address machines with 256 registers of 64 bits. > > If you're working with even a moderately-sized subroutine under those > > circumstances, the entire set of local variables will usually fit in > > the register file A smart compiler or programmer can even segment > > the variable set out into dynamic and static variables, so the > > smallest part of the register set is saved upon exit. > > > That depends on your code and your optimizer. If you have a lot of > function calls that the optimizer can't inline, it won't be as efficient > as a stack machine. If you have a big blob of code in a single function > that does a lot of floating point, or even integer math, then a stack > machine will lose. Also, does your 3-address machine have a way of > indexing into registers such that r0 is one register, but if you make a > subroutine/function call, r0 is another register? It's called global optimization. Real compilers do it. > Either that, or your compiler has to inline a lot of the commonly used > functions and assign them different registers from the file. (i.e. it > has to treat as if function calls were to nested functions and inline them.) > > The point is, that no matter how one touts the benefits of a cache as > > being able to substitute for a fast register file, it's a false > > claim. A cache can never have the information about the nature of a > > program's behavior that the programmer or compiler can--it's too far > > removed from the actual program context and must rely on history for > > what belongs in the cache and what doesn't. > > > The stack cache doesn't need any of that information though. That's > what's nice about the register windowed and stack machines: It also > saves the compiler a lot of headaches in register scheduling and > optimizing code. Why would it be any faster if it did? I can see how > temporary values that are discarded would wastefully get written back to > main memory, but beyond that, its not slower than a large register file. If it's truly a cache, and not just a queue for the stack, it has to use some algorithm based on history to determine what's kept in fast memory and what's not. Any time spent in compilation is one-off. Who cares how long it takes in the real world? Loop unrolling, register coloring, global optimization, variable renaming, vectorization (your stack machine works with vectors, doesn't it?) are all compile time overhead that no one really cares about, other than perhaps a few programmers. And that was the fatal weakness of the B5000 series. When it came down to crunching data, no one really cared if Algol-60 was the system language and the machine didn't have an assembler. The question is "Aside from the claims of elegance and similicity, how fast can you run Linpack?" To date, I've never seen a stack machine that can beat a traditional multi-address register architecture at that game. Have you? Stack machines have been with us at least since the early 60's. There must be a reason that when it comes to applications needing raw performance that no manufacturer adopts the model. Cheers, Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Oct 21 18:31:00 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 18:31:00 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <20061021133720.O11243@shell.lmi.net> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com> <00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20061021133720.O11243@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <453AADB4.9020809@brutman.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > A simple "Sieve of Erastothanes" benchmark ran faster in 5150 interpreted > BASIC than it did with Microsoft's original PC FORTRAN compiler. Good example, but is that an architectural problem with the machine or a comment on how bad the FORTRAN compiler was? I think for that to happen on a PC, the compiler must be seriously broken. As in, it should not have been released. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 21 11:48:21 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 11:48:21 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) References: , <001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <4539DEC7.8532.118148BD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <003301c6f530$b81afe90$6700a8c0@BILLING> Chuck wrote.... > The point being that there's more to a compiler or interpreter than > the symbol manipulation. Clever run-time routines can make a huge > difference. Consider another common statement, "Native code is > faster than P-code". Maybe not... Exactly my point Chuck, thanks :) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 21 11:46:50 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 11:46:50 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com><001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com> Message-ID: <002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> Michael wrote... > I know of stack machines in theory only, so I'll take your word on it. > > None of the hardware I've used in the last 20 years (Z80, 6502, 6800, x86, > PPC, etc.) would qualify as stack machines, and hence my lack of faith. > :-) When I said "stack machine" I wasn't referring to the cpu architecture. I was referring to the software design of the interpreter. Hence, I most definitely was referring to platforms like the 6502, 6800, 68000, intel, etc. And yes, I personally have seen a basic runtime interpreter that was implemented as a "stack machine" that was faster than compiled code on the same platform. As a matter of fact, this was on the 68000 at the time. Jay From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 21 17:44:40 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:44:40 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <4539FD85.9050206@arachelian.com> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk>, <45381500.903@philpem.me.uk> <45380B0D.1100.A5E3B73@cclist.sydex.com> <45391AEF.8010105@mdrconsult.com> <453929F1.6060302@yahoo.co.uk> <4539FD85.9050206@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <453AA2D8.4040105@yahoo.co.uk> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Simple enough. Don't try to build a specialized device. Reuse normal > hardware and use something like Linux or FreeBSD. It has all that stuff > built in. Support for Ethernet, USB, FireWire, TCP/IP, DHCP, FTP client > and server, HTTP client and server, NFS client and server, Appletalk > server, Samba, FAT-16, FAT32, etc. And the best part is you don't have > to spend 6 months to a couple of years reinventing the wheel just to get > that side of the project going. There's definitely a lot of merit to that approach. The downside is that at the interface to the floppy drive(s) there seems to be two possible routes: 1) Use an off-the-shelf catweasel board 2) Build a new board which is totally open (unlike catweasel) Option 1 suffers from lack of good driver support, documentation, and the proprietary nature of the system. Option 2 suffers from a total lack of any hardware interface software (anyone here have experience of writing linux kernel drivers?) I'd *love* an 'open source' catweasel board, I really would. But it's dependent on someone being able to write the necessary kernel-level driver for the hardware (in a DOS world it's not so bad, but the linux kernel is total spaghetti whenever I've looked and there's no apparent 'house style' for how a kernel driver should work) cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 21 18:32:44 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 16:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <453AADB4.9020809@brutman.com> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com> <00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20061021133720.O11243@shell.lmi.net> <453AADB4.9020809@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20061021162926.C11243@shell.lmi.net> > Fred Cisin wrote: > > A simple "Sieve of Erastothanes" benchmark ran faster in 5150 interpreted > > BASIC than it did with Microsoft's original PC FORTRAN compiler. On Sat, 21 Oct 2006, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Good example, but is that an architectural problem with the machine or a > comment on how bad the FORTRAN compiler was? I don't want to be accused of defending the PC architecture nor the MS BASIC interpreter. > I think for that to happen on a PC, the compiler must be seriously > broken. As in, it should not have been released. It was VERY broken. But, ... it was still usable for teaching beginning FORTRAN at a very cheap cost. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 21 18:58:46 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 18:58:46 -0500 Subject: General DEC diagnostic questions Message-ID: <007101c6f56c$dc332410$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I assume these are probably silly questions, but hey, it's just not clear to me :) In the PDP11 diagnostic handbook (1988) on bitsavers, some of the diagnostics mention setting CSR at 174, and SWR at 176 for various options to a given diagnostic. I am assuming that SWR is the console switch register. I thought on a /34 this was off in location 777050 (or something like that). So do I put those options in the keypad and hit LSR (which I thought put them in 777050) or do I need to put them in 176 before starting the diag? Also, is there something special about 174 that I'm not getting? Some of the docs say a particular diagnostic prompts "SWR=000000 NEW="... I assume the diags are querying if I even HAVE a switch register, and if I do, they don't print that question. Correct? Thanks for any education :) J From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 21 19:11:10 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:11:10 -0500 Subject: Specific DEC diagnostic questions (FKTG & ZDLD) Message-ID: <008801c6f56e$94f9e2d0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> The /34 passes FKAA, FKAB, FKAC, ZKMA, ZQMC, - and boots RT11. So it can't be totally hosed. Two diags give me odd results, and I'm not sure if they are saying something is failing or if I'm just not understanding what they're trying to say. ZDLDI0 - DL-11W diagnostic - It prints the following: CZDLDI0 DL11-W 11/44 MFM SLU 01 Devices Under Test --------this line is the complete ascii character set (A-Z, a-z, 0-9, !-+, etc.)----------- --------the above line (complete ascii character set) repeats here a 2nd time---------- ND PASS The odd part is the ND PASS. Where did my E go? It thinks it ended ok, but something seems amiss. I tried this on a VT100, and then on an ADDS VP to make sure it wasn't the terminal. Both gave identical results, both set to 8-1-N which is what the DL11 is set at. This MAY be related to the following... When I run FKTGC0 (11/34 memory management excerciser) it loops on a character set display similar to the ZDLD diag above. But it's not the exact same line every time. About once every 2 seconds it prints the character set line, then prints it again, and this goes on for long enough that I just halt the processor. The only docs I can find on FKTG show a switch option to inhibit TTY output. I select that and run the diag again, and it just prints an * on a new line about once every 12 seconds. I see no documentation telling me if you inhibit TTY output that it's supposed to print a * every so often, it doesn't seem to ever stop (maybe I'm not giving it long enough) so I'm a bit clueless as to if it is completing this diag and * means a pass, or does each * mean a test phase, or does a * mean "fail"? I'd appreciate any input on the two issues above! Thanks! Jay West From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 21 19:16:05 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 20:16:05 -0400 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <4539FA19.9080103@arachelian.com> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry> <453774B4.25279.812F7FE@cclist.sydex.com> <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk> <453798AC.31377.89F7742@cclist.sydex.com> <4538E7CB.7020102@yahoo.co.uk> <4539FA19.9080103@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20061022001605.1D3E6BA4177@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > Sure - I wouldn't want that either, I'd expect the motor to only be > > run during each track read, though. Whether starting and stopping the > > motor n times to read a disk is a good idea or not I don't know - it's > > more stress on the drive for sure, but whether it's sufficiently more > > to warrant not doing it I don't know. > > > > What's the worst-case floppy rotation speed - 300rpm? So five > > revolutions per second. Fastest transfer rate is 1Mbps (although > > didn't some PS/2 systems manage two?) which in theory gives a maximum > > of 200Kbits for a track. But with 8x oversampling that'll be 200KB of > > data for a single sampled track read. So roughly 18 seconds per track, > > given the port speeds you mentioned above. > > > > That's slooooow. Given the nature of the data though, it'd probably > > compress (using something like LZW) reasonably well - but then if > > driven by an old 8bit CPU it may be that any compression (or > > decompression for write transfers) uses up any time saved at the > > transfer stage. > > Sounds to me like the computer driving this needs to be reasonably fast, > and needs to have lots of RAM and perhaps even a generously sized hard > drive for post-read analysis. In the 90's I did some business reading various-format hard-sectored 5.25" and 8" floppies. The drives were perfectly standard drives. The "controller" was a 286-clone (I think I spent $25 for it in the early 90's, it was hopelessly slow and out-of-date even then) interfaced by parallel port to a circuit that would read the transitions off the floppy along with the sector holes for a few revolutions, and store the timing information in a SRAM chip. Overall it was the SRAM chip and a dozen chips of TTL on a breadboard, with a ribbon cable to the PC-clone. This kludge could read each floppy and store the raw transitions to a file on the hard drive in under a minute. Yes, that's a lot longer than optimal but the transfer software was literally something I threw together in GWBASIC. It is almost true that it takes longer to write an E-mail of this length than it takes to throw together the circuit on a protoboard and write the aquisition software :-). I toyed with the idea of optimizing the software by doing it in assembler instead of slow GWBASIC, but even for the several hundred floppies I had to do, I knew I could just chug through all the floppies in far less time than it would take to round up an assembler and the concentration to make it work! So the "reasonably fast PC" and "generously sized hard drive" is basically a 286 clone rescued from the trash in the 90's along with its built-in 10MB IDE drive :-). Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Oct 21 19:21:36 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 20:21:36 -0400 Subject: Specific DEC diagnostic questions (FKTG & ZDLD) In-Reply-To: <008801c6f56e$94f9e2d0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <008801c6f56e$94f9e2d0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20061022002136.79B37BA4182@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Jay West" wrote: > I'd appreciate any input on the two issues above! The XXDP diagnostics should not be given too much weight. They suffered from bit-rot over time especially with respect to documenting all the options/variants on tests and the wide variety of machines and environments they might be run in. The last couple of releases of XXDP did some serious damage to usability on many simple platforms. The formatter/drive exercisers/memory exercisers do have lasting utility. Being able to boot your OS is usually going to be far more relevant than anything XXDP would tell you, especially if you do not understand what the diagnostics are testing or how. Tim. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 21 19:39:11 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:39:11 -0500 Subject: Specific DEC diagnostic questions (FKTG & ZDLD) References: <008801c6f56e$94f9e2d0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20061022002136.79B37BA4182@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <00a101c6f572$7eebb050$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tim wrote... > The XXDP diagnostics should not be given too much weight. To much weight, I can understand. But are they worthless enough to not bother running to get some level of confidence in the machine? > Being able to boot your OS is usually going to be far more relevant > than anything XXDP would tell you, especially if you do not understand > what the diagnostics are testing or how. I generally assume that if a board or machine doesn't pass diagnostics, it's not worth bothering to run an OS on it. It would just get frustrating with random issues. Not that diagnostics prevent that totally, but on my other machines they are a very good litmus test. I have source to all the HP diags, they are extremely well documented, and they are quite thorough. I'd feel better if someone having a similarly configured 34 could run the same diagnostic and see if they get the same odd result :) If so, then I wouldn't mistrust my machine quite so much. Jay From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Oct 21 19:52:20 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 19:52:20 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com><001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com> <002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > And yes, I personally have seen a basic runtime interpreter that was > implemented as a "stack machine" that was faster than compiled code on > the same platform. Then I'm with Mike: That compiler was seriously broken. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 21 20:02:52 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 20:02:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: My sick A600 = dead Message-ID: <200610220102.k9M12qWh005533@keith.ezwind.net> Sadly things have taken a turn to the graveyard... I hadn't been able to find the time to see what the original problem was caused by. A few weeks ago I no ticed that the floppies started coming out of the in ternal floppy drive warm on the underside. Today when I switched her on I heard a click sound ( no, not the switch button, another click) and when I started to see a slight whisp of smoke coming out f rom the floppy drive I knew something was seriously wrong and switched her off. I daren't switch her back on and will have to remove the harddrive and open up my 2nd A600, even if it m eans breaking those damn clips at the back. This comes after a few weeks of long working days (8 to 8.5 hours) when I should only be doing 7 hours a day. I am not a happy man at present. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 21 20:04:40 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 18:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com><001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com> <002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20061021175918.H11243@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 21 Oct 2006, Jim Leonard wrote: > Then I'm with Mike: That compiler was seriously broken. That's not that hard to believe. There were some definite problems with some of the early Microsoft compilers. Bob Wallace, who wrote their Pascal compiler, advised me to never use the runtime library. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Oct 21 20:19:24 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 21:19:24 -0400 Subject: Specific DEC diagnostic questions (FKTG & ZDLD) In-Reply-To: <00a101c6f572$7eebb050$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <008801c6f56e$94f9e2d0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20061022002136.79B37BA4182@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <00a101c6f572$7eebb050$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200610212119.24694.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 21 October 2006 20:39, Jay West wrote: > Tim wrote... > > I'd feel better if someone having a similarly configured 34 could run > the same diagnostic and see if they get the same odd result :) If so, > then I wouldn't mistrust my machine quite so much. You could always try using simh as your "reference" machine... :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 21 20:31:53 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 18:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My sick A600 = dead In-Reply-To: <200610220102.k9M12qWh005533@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20061022013153.85693.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> I actually own a 600 too, never played with it much though. One thing I can say, smoke or another indication of what the problem may be is one of the best problems that could happen with your puter. Probably a capacitor. No way of knowing until you open it though... I was playing chess on my original Tandy 2000 way back, when it locked up, and saw a "memory parity error" on the screen. Well...I've learned that that doesn't necessarily indicate a bad parity chip, but sure enough it was. Learned to desolder the man's way (with a wick), soldered in a socket, and popped in a new 4164. Back in business. --- aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > > Sadly things have taken a turn to the graveyard... > > > I hadn't been able to find the time to see what the > original problem was caused by. A few weeks ago I no > ticed that the floppies started coming out of the in > ternal floppy drive warm on the underside. > Today when I switched her on I heard a click sound ( > no, not the switch button, another click) and when I > started to see a slight whisp of smoke coming out f > rom the floppy drive I knew something was seriously > wrong and switched her off. > I daren't switch her back on and will have to remove > the harddrive and open up my 2nd A600, even if it m > eans breaking those damn clips at the back. > > This comes after a few weeks of long working days (8 > to 8.5 hours) when I should only be doing 7 hours a > day. I am not a happy man at present. > > > Regards, > Andrew B > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 21 20:44:21 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 20:44:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Honeywell 7-track tape drive - who has EVER seen this? Message-ID: <200610220144.k9M1iLwv006522@keith.ezwind.net> --- Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi folks, > > please take a look at this picture: > http://h316.hachti.de?gallery/tape_drive2/dscn1704 _1024.jpg > More can be found here: > http://h316.hachti.de?gallery/tape_drive/ > http://h316.hachti.de?gallery/tape_drive2/ > > Who has ever seen/used/heard about/repaired this > kind (similar is ok, > too!) of tape drive? Well, thanks to you, I have seen one now :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 21 20:00:06 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 20:00:06 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com><001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com><002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote.... > Then I'm with Mike: That compiler was seriously broken. Nah, it wasn't. It's just that (as has been pointed out here), pseudo code that is well designed can sometimes be executed in less instructions than a compiler generates for the equivalent task. Jay From drb at msu.edu Sat Oct 21 22:19:43 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 23:19:43 -0400 Subject: ZRQC formatter issue Message-ID: <200610220319.k9M3JhYl032616@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Esteemed DEC Wizards, I'm trying to format a Seagate ST251-1 (40 MB MFM drive) connected to an RQDX3 using ZRQCH0 from XXDP25. The formatter runs for over two minutes, stepping the heads steadily, and announcing completion of over 50,000 LBNs written. It seems to write all of the low level format, then dies with this error: ZRQC SYS FTL ERR 00007 ON UNIT 00 TST 01 SUB 000 PC: 105472 Controller has reported a fatal error in the format program Status: FCT nonexistent The drive was originally used with WD controllers on 486 class MS-DOS machines. How do I get an FCT onto the drive? Do I need to somehow wipe some additional space on the drive to trick ZRQC into thinking this is a raw drive, or something? Thanks, De From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Oct 21 23:08:57 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 23:08:57 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com><001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com><002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org> <00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <453AEED9.6090609@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > Jim wrote.... >> Then I'm with Mike: That compiler was seriously broken. > Nah, it wasn't. It's just that (as has been pointed out here), pseudo > code that is well designed can sometimes be executed in less > instructions than a compiler generates for the equivalent task. A compiler is supposed to generate assembler-level (machine-level) constructs for what the high-level language is asking for. Nothing is more efficient than that. If the compiler produced code that was so incredibly obtuse and broken that it took longer to execute an operation than an interpreter, the compiler was a piece of crap. I call serious BS on the statement "some interpreters were faster than some compilers". People are going to have to back that up with actual examples before it becomes believable. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 21 23:29:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 21:29:03 -0700 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <453AEED9.6090609@oldskool.org> References: , <00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP>, <453AEED9.6090609@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <453A911F.23582.1439EAEF@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Oct 2006 at 23:08, Jim Leonard wrote: > A compiler is supposed to generate assembler-level (machine-level) > constructs for what the high-level language is asking for. Nothing is > more efficient than that. If the compiler produced code that was so > incredibly obtuse and broken that it took longer to execute an operation > than an interpreter, the compiler was a piece of crap. I'm not sure if you include P-code as "interpreted", but yes, some compilers were indeed inefficient pieces of crap. Even more run-time libraries were pure unadulterated garbage. The thing that will slow down any BASIC, compiled or interpreted, is the floating point package. It used to be that many BASICs did not have integer datatypes, so a slow mathpack can do great harm. Cheers, Chuck From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sat Oct 21 23:51:26 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 21:51:26 -0700 Subject: Specific DEC diagnostic questions (FKTG & ZDLD) In-Reply-To: <008801c6f56e$94f9e2d0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <008801c6f56e$94f9e2d0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <453AF8CE.5030906@mindspring.com> Jay West wrote: > The /34 passes FKAA, FKAB, FKAC, ZKMA, ZQMC, - and boots RT11. So it > can't be totally hosed. > > Two diags give me odd results, and I'm not sure if they are saying > something is failing or if I'm just not understanding what they're > trying to say. > > ZDLDI0 - DL-11W diagnostic - It prints the following: > > CZDLDI0 DL11-W 11/44 MFM SLU > 01 Devices Under Test > > --------this line is the complete ascii character set (A-Z, a-z, 0-9, > !-+, etc.)----------- > > --------the above line (complete ascii character set) repeats here a > 2nd time---------- > > ND PASS > > The odd part is the ND PASS. Where did my E go? It thinks it ended ok, > but something seems amiss. I tried this on a VT100, and then on an > ADDS VP to make sure it wasn't the terminal. Both gave identical > results, both set to 8-1-N which is what the DL11 is set at. This MAY > be related to the following... I tried this on my 11/34 and I see the same behavior, the 'E' is missing. The string printed according to the diagnostic listing is "END PASS " (this is in ZDLDC0, I don't have a listing fro ZDLDI0). I have two DL11-Ws (one console, one TU-58 emulator) and both pass the diagnostic and work 100%. So I think this is either a latent diag bug (I use TTermPro for the terminal emulator). I now remember seeing this before and have just ignored it. > When I run FKTGC0 (11/34 memory management excerciser) it loops on a > character set display similar to the ZDLD diag above. But it's not the > exact same line every time. About once every 2 seconds it prints the > character set line, then prints it again, and this goes on for long > enough that I just halt the processor. The only docs I can find on > FKTG show a switch option to inhibit TTY output. I select that and run > the diag again, and it just prints an * on a new line about once every > 12 seconds. I see no documentation telling me if you inhibit TTY > output that it's supposed to print a * every so often, it doesn't seem > to ever stop (maybe I'm not giving it long enough) so I'm a bit > clueless as to if it is completing this diag and * means a pass, or > does each * mean a test phase, or does a * mean "fail"? I ran this as well, behavior is similar. With TTY output enabled I see the same line repeated over and over again (looks like ascii sequence 0x00..0xFF) as fast as the terminal will run. With TTY output disabled I see a line with just a '*' printed and the bell rings about every 30 sec or so. I don't have a listing for this diagnostic, but this behavior is pretty typical of a 'pass' indicator. > I'd appreciate any input on the two issues above! > I think you have a working system! > Thanks! > > Jay West > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 21 23:28:29 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 23:28:29 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com><001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com><002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org><00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <453AEED9.6090609@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <018b01c6f592$868dfb40$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote... >Nothing is more efficient than that. If the compiler produced code that >was so incredibly obtuse and broken that it took longer to execute an >operation than an interpreter, the compiler was a piece of crap. You've obviously never written an interpreter have you. > I call serious BS on the statement "some interpreters were faster than > some compilers". People are going to have to back that up with actual > examples before it becomes believable. If you'd read what some of the previous people have posted on this topic, you'd get a clue. Instead, I'm left thinking you chose to ignore any input that isn't what you want to hear. Jay From dundas at caltech.edu Sun Oct 22 00:14:17 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (dundas at caltech.edu) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Specific DEC diagnostic questions (FKTG & ZDLD) Message-ID: <6659477646dundas@caltech.edu> > On Saturday 21 October 2006 20:39, Jay West wrote: > > Tim wrote... > > > > I'd feel better if someone having a similarly configured 34 could run > > the same diagnostic and see if they get the same odd result :) If so, > > then I wouldn't mistrust my machine quite so much. > > You could always try using simh as your "reference" machine... :) That works well for many things, but not all. Bob, and the rest of the contributors including myself, don't simulate the entirety of the machine or peripherals such that diagnostics will necessarily successfully run. As a concrete example, memory CSRs are not simulated. Some diagnostics need this to work correctly so that they can set the wrong parity, etc. Cache is another feature of some of the models that is not simulated at all. I actually have SIMH modules for memory controllers (including CSRs) and the J-11 cache (but not other models) that I will submit for inclusion in SIMH someday. Nonetheless, Pat is right. SIMH (and E11, I imagine) can be an excellent reference platform for much machine behavior. John From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 22 00:15:44 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 00:15:44 -0500 Subject: Specific DEC diagnostic questions (FKTG & ZDLD) References: <008801c6f56e$94f9e2d0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <453AF8CE.5030906@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <01a701c6f599$2157c740$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Don wrote... > I tried this on my 11/34 and I see the same behavior, the 'E' is missing. > The string printed according to the diagnostic listing is "END > PASS " > (this is in ZDLDC0, I don't have a listing fro ZDLDI0). I was looking at the listing for ZDLDC0 too. I am wondering if the deficiency in the diagnostic is not allowing padding to account for timing between CR & LF. It looks like the code doesn't allow for that anyways. Just a wild guess. > I ran this as well, behavior is similar. With TTY output enabled I see the > same line repeated over and over again (looks like ascii sequence > 0x00..0xFF) as fast as the terminal will run. I thought it odd that it includes that entire range. Control characters are sure to put many terminals in a state where further printing won't happen. > With TTY output disabled I see a line with just a '*' printed and the bell > rings about every 30 sec or so. I don't have a listing for this > diagnostic, but this behavior is pretty typical of a 'pass' indicator. Ahhh, ok. I didn't see anything in the diag manual saying a "*" was a typical pass indicator. Now I know :) > I think you have a working system! Thanks Don, I really appreciate it. Definitely makes me feel more confident in the machine. On to the LincTapeII :D Jay West From shawn.t.rutledge at gmail.com Sun Oct 22 00:45:08 2006 From: shawn.t.rutledge at gmail.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 22:45:08 -0700 Subject: VZ200 available Message-ID: Anybody interested in one of these? Was going to put it on ebay but thought I'd ask first. It seems to work, too, and comes with the BASIC manual. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Oct 22 01:14:22 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 02:14:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <018b01c6f592$868dfb40$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com><001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com><002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org><00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <453AEED9.6090609@oldskool.org> <018b01c6f592$868dfb40$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200610220618.CAA19604@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> If the compiler produced code that was so incredibly obtuse and >> broken that it took longer to execute an operation than an >> interpreter, the compiler was a piece of crap. > You've obviously never written an interpreter have you. I have (written interpreters, that is), and I still agree that if compiled code is slower than interpreted code, something needs improvement (I wouldn't quite go so far as to use language like "broken" or "piece of crap"). As a trivial argument, the compiler could simply generate the sequence of operations the interpreter would, except without overhead of the interpreter itself. The only reasons I can see to not do this are (1) the compiler writers (or its run-time's writers) aren't as clever as the interpreter writers when it comes to generating fast sequences for certain operations - see the floating-point stuff mentioned upthread for an example - and (2) code size. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 22 01:49:36 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 02:49:36 -0400 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <453AEED9.6090609@oldskool.org> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com><001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com><002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org> <00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <453AEED9.6090609@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <453B1480.9000408@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > I call serious BS on the statement "some interpreters were faster than > some compilers". People are going to have to back that up with actual > examples before it becomes believable. Microsoft QuickBASIC 4.5. Try it with "Gorillas". Peace... Sridhar From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Oct 21 14:00:42 2006 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 12:00:42 -0700 Subject: Finding bad RAM chip on PDP11 M7551? In-Reply-To: <453A56A1.2020700@shiresoft.com> References: <4532AE72.80006@msu.edu> <4533FA5C.8020109@compsys.to> <45397F5B.1020803@msu.edu> <4539B33E.1000106@jetnet.ab.ca> <4539C0E3.3080008@msu.edu> <453A56A1.2020700@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <453A6E5A.1060309@msu.edu> >> Interesting -- I got inspired tonight and I spent a few hours with >> VTServer getting 2.11BSD installed on the /73, with the 512k ram >> board installed -- it seems to run okay, though I haven't done much >> with it yet (Only have the root partition copied over, looks like >> getting the rest of the tar files installed will be more of a >> challenge...). Guess the 1mb ram requirement isn't strictly enforced >> -- maybe if I get _really_ crazy, I'll try it with 256k :). >> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > VTserver is different from 2.11BSD. VTserver will run in 192K of > memory. The 1MB for 2.11BSD is no joke. It really takes *a lot* of > memory (for a PDP-11) to run. > > However, I'm running it on a 4MB 11/70 and it's quite happy! :-) > No, I'm quite positive that I've booted and run 2.11BSD on my /73 with only 512k memory, honest :). I can attach the output of the machine booting if you want proof. Now, as to how _useful_ 2.11BSD will be with only 512k ram... Josh From webmaster at rcworks.com Sat Oct 21 19:05:47 2006 From: webmaster at rcworks.com (Richard Culbertson) Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:05:47 -0700 Subject: Need an obituary for Don Tarbell Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061021164947.027a9388@TheShootist.com> While I met Don briefly a few times my father would be probably the one that knew him best. My father was with him from conception of the cassette interface up to his death. My pop might be open to writing what you want, you should ask him. If your still in need of an obituary let me know and I will give you my dads email address. From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 22 02:39:53 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 02:39:53 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <453B1480.9000408@gmail.com> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com><001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com><002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org> <00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <453AEED9.6090609@oldskool.org> <453B1480.9000408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <453B2049.1050400@oldskool.org> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: >> I call serious BS on the statement "some interpreters were faster than >> some compilers". People are going to have to back that up with actual >> examples before it becomes believable. > > Microsoft QuickBASIC 4.5. Try it with "Gorillas". And what interpreter? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 22 02:52:16 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 02:52:16 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <018b01c6f592$868dfb40$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com><001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com><002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org><00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <453AEED9.6090609@oldskool.org> <018b01c6f592$868dfb40$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <453B2330.3010507@oldskool.org> Jay West wrote: > If you'd read what some of the previous people have posted on this > topic, you'd get a clue. Instead, I'm left thinking you chose to ignore > any input that isn't what you want to hear. I haven't read a single statement that explains how native, compiled code could possibly be beaten by an interpreter. If I want to evaluate the expression "a := a + b" on an x86 machine, where a and b are variables in memory, I would expect a compiler to produce the following: mov bx,b add a,bx You can't tell me any interpreter could possibly beat that. As der mouse said, even if the interpreter produced exactly the same code, there is the overhead of the interpreter itself. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Oct 22 03:59:32 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 10:59:32 +0200 Subject: General DEC diagnostic questions References: <007101c6f56c$dc332410$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20377@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> >Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Jay West >Verzonden: zo 22-10-2006 01:58 >Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Onderwerp: General DEC diagnostic questions > >I assume these are probably silly questions, but hey, it's just >not clear to me :) > >In the PDP11 diagnostic handbook (1988) on bitsavers, some of the >diagnostics mention setting CSR at 174, and SWR at 176 for various >options to a given diagnostic. I am assuming that SWR is the console >switch register. I thought on a /34 this was off in location 777050 >(or something like that). So do I put those options in the keypad >and hit LSR (which I thought put them in 777050) or do I need to put >them in 176 before starting the diag? > >Also, is there something special about 174 that I'm not getting? I am sure others can give way better answers ... SWR is indeed SWitch Register, which is at 777570 btw. A value loaded into the SWR can be read by software, here the diag. It is common that the bits in the SWR have meanings, like halt on error, loop (for scope use), etc. The CSR puzzles me a bit, as I thought that stands for Control & Status, almost always the address of the first register of a controller. So, I would expect something like e.g. 776174 ... as base address. CSR is set by jumpers, but I recall the SET CSR in RT11 command vaguely. I used that with my RH11 MASSbus controller, but that's a few years ago. >Some of the docs say a particular diagnostic prompts "SWR=000000 NEW="... >I assume the diags are querying if I even HAVE a switch register, >and if I do, they don't print that question. Correct? Not sure, but I guess, yes. The new(er) machines do have a SWR, but it is not in the hardware, that we love so much :-) >Thanks for any education :) Aren't we all learning every time a little bit? I am :-) >J - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Oct 22 04:17:31 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:17:31 +0200 Subject: General DEC diagnostic questions References: <007101c6f56c$dc332410$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20377@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20378@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> >Also, is there something special about 174 that I'm not getting? Correction. That address (174) is probably the address where you load a CSR address of the controller under test that the diagnostic will read from. - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Oct 22 06:21:42 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 13:21:42 +0200 Subject: **for grabs** power supply H7868-B fro R215F Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20379@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi all, I am disposing some stuff I really don't want to keep. Most of it is of no interest, but parts may be ... So, if anybody want the PSU of the R215F pedestall it's available for shipping cost (from The Netherlands). Also the two RF72 drives, but they weigh a few kilos ... I will throw the pedestal in a collect bin, so the metal inside (heavy!) will get recycled. - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From rogpugh at mac.com Sun Oct 22 06:39:48 2006 From: rogpugh at mac.com (roger pugh) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:39:48 +0100 Subject: LCD TV's with Home computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <873fa278d63bc0cf7908fbbc3d366d62@mac.com> Does anyone have any experience running home computers, Commodores, Sinclair's, Apple II's and the like on one of these modern LCD TV's. Can they lock on to the cheap modulator signals or work with the composite or RGB. I'm thinking of getting rid of a bulky tv set and various rgb and black and white monitors and use a modern solution. Roger From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Oct 22 09:13:30 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 10:13:30 -0400 Subject: dec /34a issue (Solved) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:17:32 EDT." <001901c6f556$53a71810$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <200610221413.k9MEDUF6020781@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Bob Shannon" wrote: >There are 3 more RL-01 packs that were left behind. > >Some of the packs you have (and some left behind) have >the OMSI Pascal compiler for RT-11. Jay, if you don't want them i'll be happy to retrieve them :-) -brad From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Oct 22 09:23:11 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 15:23:11 +0100 Subject: General DEC diagnostic questions In-Reply-To: <007101c6f56c$dc332410$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <007101c6f56c$dc332410$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <453B7ECF.8020903@dunnington.plus.com> Jay West wrote: > I assume these are probably silly questions, but hey, it's just not > clear to me :) > > In the PDP11 diagnostic handbook (1988) on bitsavers, some of the > diagnostics mention setting CSR at 174, and SWR at 176 for various > options to a given diagnostic. I am assuming that SWR is the console > switch register. That's the original meaning, but many PDP-11s don't have a real switch register, so most XXDP diagnostics use location 176 as a psuedo-SWR. Almost all the diagnostics start at 000200, so 000176 is just the location immediately preceding the program. I thought on a /34 this was off in location 777050 (or > something like that). So do I put those options in the keypad and hit > LSR (which I thought put them in 777050) or do I need to put them in 176 > before starting the diag? If the diagnostic is asking you about 176, put the contents (desired flags and/or unit number) there. > Also, is there something special about 174 that I'm not getting? Not really, it's just the location immediately preceding 176, and many diagnostics which test peripheral controllers allow you to set a value there, to tell the diagnostic where the device CSR really is, in case it's a floating address, or you want to specify a second unit's CSR instead of the first unit, or the device is configured with a non-standard address. > Some of the docs say a particular diagnostic prompts "SWR=000000 > NEW="... I assume the diags are querying if I even HAVE a switch > register, and if I do, they don't print that question. Correct? Not quite, it's saying it doesn't see a hardware SWR (or it's zeroed, or it didn't bother looking) and location 176 -- the pseudo-SWR -- is zeroed, and it's prompting you in case you want to set a different value there. You would typically do that if you wanted to set the loop-on-error, halt-on-error, extended messages or other flags, or set a particular unit number (eg for testing multiple disks on a single controller). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Oct 22 10:00:25 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 10:00:25 -0500 Subject: Compilers vs. Interpreters In-Reply-To: <00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com><001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com><002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org> <00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <453B8789.8060800@brutman.com> Jay West wrote: > Nah, it wasn't. It's just that (as has been pointed out here), pseudo > code that is well designed can sometimes be executed in less > instructions than a compiler generates for the equivalent task. > > Jay Intuitively I still can't wrap my head around that. I don't want to drag the discussion out, but it would seem to me that if the interpreter had a better way of doing something, then the compiler/runtime should be able to implement that same method. And thus it becomes a comparison in implementations, one more optimal than the other. And there is no way to reconcile that. The only time I can see an interpreter having a clear advantage is when it knows something about the runtime environment that the compiler and it's runtime can't know. Modern Java JIT compiler interpreters do this. But in a straight up interpreter vs. a compiler and it's runtime comparison, it's hard to imagine how a reasonable compiler would lose except for specific implementation problems. I'll exclude the stack machines from my head wrapping problem until I get more experience with them. Mike From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Oct 22 09:54:46 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 10:54:46 -0400 Subject: Specific DEC diagnostic questions (FKTG & ZDLD) In-Reply-To: <00a101c6f572$7eebb050$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <008801c6f56e$94f9e2d0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20061022002136.79B37BA4182@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <00a101c6f572$7eebb050$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20061022145446.775E5BA4184@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Jay West" wrote: > Tim wrote... > > The XXDP diagnostics should not be given too much weight. > To much weight, I can understand. But are they worthless enough to not > bother running to get some level of confidence in the machine? If you are capable of booting the machine to an OS, try doing things like assemblies of monitors, running TREK or ADVENT, or something that's actually enjoyable :-). RSX-11M+ has some damn good drive exercisers (IOX). Much more thorough than XXDP for walking washing-machine sized drives across the room! In RT-11, FMT will let you do bad block scans with various patterns. > > Being able to boot your OS is usually going to be far more relevant > > than anything XXDP would tell you, especially if you do not understand > > what the diagnostics are testing or how. > I generally assume that if a board or machine doesn't pass diagnostics, it's > not worth bothering to run an OS on it. It would just get frustrating with > random issues. Not that diagnostics prevent that totally, but on my other > machines they are a very good litmus test. I have source to all the HP > diags, they are extremely well documented, and they are quite thorough. The DEC diagnostics were generally pretty good for doing what they do. There will be some corner cases where the machine will boot into XXDP or RT-11 but will have a fault that might show up in an application. I'm not going to claim that these corner cases never happen because over the years I've run across them a couple of times. But in most cases, a CPU fault or memory fault or drive fault will stop you from even being able to boot into XXDP. In a couple cases XXDP (because it generally doesn't use interrupts) will boot when the real OS's won't (and that itself is a really sharp finger pointing to something in the interrupt chain.) Third-party hardware (e.g. non-DEC drive controllers) will often work just fine in real life but not pass the XXDP diagnostics because XXDP is looking for some (undocumented) timing restriction that doesn't apply to the third-party stuff. Tim. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Oct 22 10:09:50 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 10:09:50 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <018b01c6f592$868dfb40$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com><001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com><002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org><00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <453AEED9.6090609@oldskool.org> <018b01c6f592$868dfb40$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <453B89BE.502@brutman.com> Jay West wrote: > You've obviously never written an interpreter have you. > If you'd read what some of the previous people have posted on this > topic, you'd get a clue. Instead, I'm left thinking you chose to ignore > any input that isn't what you want to hear. > > Jay With all due respect, how would you know if somebody had written or never written an interpreter? Jim used strong language to express his skepticism. I don't think that should open the door to telling people to get a clue. We're subscribers to this list, so I assumed that meant we had somewhat of a clue. You're not dealing with high school students here. Mike From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Sun Oct 22 10:19:42 2006 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles Fox) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:19:42 -0400 Subject: LCD TV's with Home computers In-Reply-To: <873fa278d63bc0cf7908fbbc3d366d62@mac.com> References: <873fa278d63bc0cf7908fbbc3d366d62@mac.com> Message-ID: <20061022151949.05F537972@fep9.cogeco.net> At 07:39 AM 10/22/2006, you wrote: >Does anyone have any experience running home computers, Commodores, >Sinclair's, Apple II's and the like on one of these modern LCD TV's. >Can they lock on to the cheap modulator signals or work with the >composite or RGB. >I'm thinking of getting rid of a bulky tv set and various rgb and >black and white monitors and use a modern solution. > >Roger > I recently bought a Samsung Syncmaster 730MW which will operate as a standard definition TV set, a video monitor, or a computer monitor. Cost in Canada about $ 600.00. I haven't tried it with any old computers, but they should operate with either the composite video input, or the tv channel 3 input. I doubt if the quality would be any better than a proper CRT monitor. Cheers Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor, Ontario 519-254-4991 N8Y 3J8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Oct 22 10:44:13 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 08:44:13 -0700 Subject: ZRQC formatter issue In-Reply-To: <200610220319.k9M3JhYl032616@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: >From: Dennis Boone > >Esteemed DEC Wizards, > >I'm trying to format a Seagate ST251-1 (40 MB MFM drive) connected >to an RQDX3 using ZRQCH0 from XXDP25. The formatter runs for over >two minutes, stepping the heads steadily, and announcing completion >of over 50,000 LBNs written. It seems to write all of the low level >format, then dies with this error: > > ZRQC SYS FTL ERR 00007 ON UNIT 00 TST 01 SUB 000 PC: 105472 > Controller has reported a fatal error in the format program > Status: FCT nonexistent > >The drive was originally used with WD controllers on 486 class MS-DOS >machines. > >How do I get an FCT onto the drive? Do I need to somehow wipe some >additional space on the drive to trick ZRQC into thinking this is a >raw drive, or something? > >Thanks, > >De Hi I had a similar problem on my Olivetti M20 to get it formatted. I had to write all zero's to the first two cylinders to get it to work, otherwise it assumed that any data there must be bad sector data. Once I got it formatted, it had a relatively good test for bad sectors. The bad sector information was easy to understand and if I'd have needed to add any that the manufacture listed, it would have been easy. My drive had no manufacture listed bad sectors but did show some from the test. These were all the same sector on succesive cyclinders of the same head. I suspect it may have been shipping damage. If the platters counter rotate, even slightly, the heads cut into the surface :( It would be great if people would always run a park program on disk before shipping, even on drives like the st251 that are not suppose to need it. I did have to write some assembly code for the Z8000 to get things working. I had other issues as well but that was just getting a controller, not designed for the M20, to work with the M20. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more?then map the best route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001 From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Oct 22 10:54:34 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 17:54:34 +0200 Subject: **for grabs** power supply H7868-B fro R215F References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20379@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C2037D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> All gone ! ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Gooijen, Henk Verzonden: zo 22-10-2006 13:21 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: **for grabs** power supply H7868-B fro R215F Hi all, I am disposing some stuff I really don't want to keep. Most of it is of no interest, but parts may be ... So, if anybody want the PSU of the R215F pedestall it's available for shipping cost (from The Netherlands). Also the two RF72 drives, but they weigh a few kilos ... I will throw the pedestal in a collect bin, so the metal inside (heavy!) will get recycled. - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 22 11:17:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:17:45 -0700 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <453B2330.3010507@oldskool.org> References: , <018b01c6f592$868dfb40$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP>, <453B2330.3010507@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <453B3739.32310.16C2C32B@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Oct 2006 at 2:52, Jim Leonard wrote: > You can't tell me any interpreter could possibly beat that. As der > mouse said, even if the interpreter produced exactly the same code, > there is the overhead of the interpreter itself. No, you're right in the case of most math (although there have been some really awful floating poing packages; I'd expect that most compilers and interpreters would be using NDP instructions by now). But strings are a whole 'nuther story. Take a simple string expression, for example: D$=A$+B$+C$ where "+" is the concatenation operator. If the compiler chooses to implement ASCIIZ strings, where the length of each string isn't known in advance, execution can really bog down. The code could get as bad as: <(re)allocate D$ sufficient to hold temp2> I have actually seen compiled code this awful. And, if a junior programmer who knew nothing but 'C' library functions would likely be strongly tempted to generate this kind of code. Most 'C' programmers aren't even aware of how inefficient null-teminated strings are. Would this be the fault of the runtime or the compiler? A smart interpreter that kept its strings as descriptor-containing length items could run rings around the aforementioned compiler, since the actual statement to be interpreted is likely quite small in comparison to the size of the strings involved. Cheers, Chuck From ygehrich at yahoo.com Sun Oct 22 11:26:08 2006 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:26:08 -0400 Subject: Compilers vs. Interpreters In-Reply-To: <453B8789.8060800@brutman.com> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com> <00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com> <001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com> <002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org> <00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <453B8789.8060800@brutman.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061022122445.05d66d78@yahoo.com> At 11:00 AM 10/22/2006 Michael B. Brutman wrote: >I don't want to drag the discussion out, but it would seem to me >that if the interpreter had a better way of doing something, then >the compiler/runtime should be able to implement that same method. And if a DVD shows a four hour movie then a CD should be able to do the same thing From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Oct 22 11:33:16 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:33:16 -0500 Subject: **for grabs** power supply H7868B fro R215F Message-ID: <3eb33e6606e74ebab43b396cbb55c9ff@valleyimplants.com> Not sure about the power supply, but I would encourage you to consider putting the RF72s for sale on E-bay or something similar. When I was looking to outfit my VAX about a year and a half ago, DSSI drives were quite expensive for their size (generally at least US$40 for a RF72 (I wound up using a HSD05-AA and SCSI drives built into the BA440). From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Oct 22 11:53:58 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:53:58 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <453B3739.32310.16C2C32B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <018b01c6f592$868dfb40$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP>, <453B2330.3010507@oldskool.org> <453B3739.32310.16C2C32B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <453BA226.2040807@brutman.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > A smart interpreter that kept its strings as descriptor-containing > length items could run rings around the aforementioned compiler, > since the actual statement to be interpreted is likely quite small in > comparison to the size of the strings involved. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > Ah, but that is an implementation difference on the way an interpreter and a compiler might handle strings. If the compiler used a length descriptor strings then the implementations would be equivalent, and the compiler should have the upper hand? The topic/question originally started as 'A compiler generally wins, given all other things being equal'. One of the problems with the discussion is that if you include the runtime for the compiler, then you basically can match anything an interpreter can do at run time. So the whole discussion might be moot, and might just come down to 'my specific implementation of such and such is better than yours.' Mike From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Oct 22 11:54:18 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:54:18 -0500 Subject: Compilers vs. Interpreters In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20061022122445.05d66d78@yahoo.com> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com> <00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com> <001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com> <002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org> <00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <453B8789.8060800@brutman.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20061022122445.05d66d78@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <453BA23A.4080303@brutman.com> Gene Ehrich wrote: > At 11:00 AM 10/22/2006 Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> I don't want to drag the discussion out, but it would seem to me that >> if the interpreter had a better way of doing something, then the >> compiler/runtime should be able to implement that same method. > > And if a DVD shows a four hour movie then a CD should be able to do the > same thing > > > Thanks for generating heat, but no light. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 22 12:17:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 10:17:00 -0700 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <453BA226.2040807@brutman.com> References: , <453B3739.32310.16C2C32B@cclist.sydex.com>, <453BA226.2040807@brutman.com> Message-ID: <453B451C.15293.16F90452@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Oct 2006 at 11:53, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > If the compiler used a length descriptor strings then the > implementations would be equivalent, and the compiler should have the > upper hand? Well, I never said that "runtime implementation was equal". As a matter of fact, if you look at my earlier messages, I kept driving home the idea of slow runtimes being the biggest culprit in the "compiler vs. interpreter". But even assuming the same runtimes, is it possible to still make the case? Yes, in the case where the number of cycles spent to perform an operation is large in comparison to the interpereter overhead. Let's go back to that example of mine, D$=A$+B$+C$ and suppose that descriptor-cum-length is used in both the interpreter and compiler. An interpreter that was smart enough to do this> and a compiler that was dumb enough to generate: would, in the case of longer strings, likely turn in the advantage of the interpreter--even though the run-time is the same. To be fair, however, any interpreter smart enough to perform on-the- fly optimization is going to take longer to interpret each statement. And there is no reason that a compiler could be even smarter than the interpreter. On the BASIC-to-P-code compiler I worked on, we spent an inordinate amount of time optimizing string handling, realizing that the bulk of our application base was going to be just that--manipulating strings. And that is what we determined was the big difference between Microsoft compiled BASIC and our own--and why we were able to outperform it by a wide margin--even though MS was generating "native" 8080 code. Cheers, Chuck > > The topic/question originally started as 'A compiler generally wins, > given all other things being equal'. > > One of the problems with the discussion is that if you include the > runtime for the compiler, then you basically can match anything an > interpreter can do at run time. So the whole discussion might be moot, > and might just come down to 'my specific implementation of such and such > is better than yours.' > > > Mike > From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 22 13:07:46 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 13:07:46 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <453B3739.32310.16C2C32B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <018b01c6f592$868dfb40$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP>, <453B2330.3010507@oldskool.org> <453B3739.32310.16C2C32B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <453BB372.9020506@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The code could get as bad as: (snip) > I have actually seen compiled code this awful. (snip) > Would this be the fault of the runtime or the compiler? As you demonstrated yourself, the compiler. Which is still my point. I accept that there have been some truly crappy compilers where a well-written interpreter was able to beat them in execution speed. But what I take offense to is the notion of some people here that the interpreter was *so* cleverly written that it could beat *any* compiler for that language, which is just BS. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Oct 22 13:21:14 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:21:14 -0700 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: <453A481C.239.131CB9B1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" ---SNIP--- > >Stack machines have been with us at least since the early 60's. >There must be a reason that when it comes to applications needing raw >performance that no manufacturer adopts the model. > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi Take any machine from the 1990's and write a routine that can sort 1K 16 bit integers in 19.2ms. That was done on a stack machine running with a 4 MHz clock! A machine that blends the best parts of stacks and registers is actually the best. It has never been about how good the processor is. It is mostly marketing. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more?then map the best route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 22 13:32:49 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 13:32:49 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <20061021155113.R11243@shell.lmi.net> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk>, <45381500.903@philpem.me.uk> <45380B0D.1100.A5E3B73@cclist.sydex.com> <45391AEF.8010105@mdrconsult.com> <453929F1.6060302@yahoo.co.uk> <20061021133258.J11243@shell.lmi.net> <1CBD1097-4BA3-4D3D-A273-2E72D25E601A@neurotica.com> <20061021155113.R11243@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <453BB951.1070700@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 21 Oct 2006, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Have you found a stash of Ampro Little Boards? If so, please >> share. :) > > Sorry, I have to apologize; > I didn't realize that they had become rare. > > There were at least a half a dozen different brands of miniature > motherboards in that form factor. Are they all rare now? Will they all read / write FM density, and allow raw bit-level access to the track data coming from the floppy drive, though? I think that's what we're hoping for from a data imaging device... Actually, there's perhaps three different projects that would be useful to tackle: 1) Off-the-shelf imaging box using a stock FDC chip capable of MFM and FM (with little ability to handle faulty media) 2) Custom imaging box [ which may mean scrap PC + extras ] that does data sampling at the drive digital interface level and reconstruction ( / deconstruction) in software. 3) Custom imaging box which hooks to the floppy drive's heads directly and uses a DAC / ADC; essentially as option 2 but can cope with marginal signal levels to reconstruct data. Option 1 I think is reasonably well covered with things like Imagedisk. Option 3 would be rather useful to a lot of us, but is a lot of work, both to design and set up on a per-drive basis. Option 2 is more middle ground, and seems to be within the realms of something that can be designed using a fairly low parts count and (hopefully) built by most hobbyists. Unless I'm completely misreading the discussion :-) cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 22 13:45:47 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:45:47 -0600 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <453AEED9.6090609@oldskool.org> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com><001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com><002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org> <00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <453AEED9.6090609@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <453BBC5B.4050505@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jay West wrote: > A compiler is supposed to generate assembler-level (machine-level) > constructs for what the high-level language is asking for. Nothing is > more efficient than that. If the compiler produced code that was so > incredibly obtuse and broken that it took longer to execute an operation > than an interpreter, the compiler was a piece of crap. It could be that it is using 32 bit ints under FORTRAN as a default. Looking at FORTRAN IV for the PDP-8 you have 24 bit ints standard so all you integer math is a call to suboutines. > I call serious BS on the statement "some interpreters were faster than > some compilers". People are going to have to back that up with actual > examples before it becomes believable. Some verions of FORTRAN for the PDP 11 was threaded code too. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 22 13:54:42 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:54:42 -0600 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <453BBE72.4070608@jetnet.ab.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > > > >> From: "Chuck Guzis" > > ---SNIP--- > >> >> Stack machines have been with us at least since the early 60's. >> There must be a reason that when it comes to applications needing raw >> performance that no manufacturer adopts the model. >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> > > Hi > Take any machine from the 1990's and write a routine that > can sort 1K 16 bit integers in 19.2ms. That was done on a > stack machine running with a 4 MHz clock! A) Memory access time??? B) Code & data listing??? > A machine that blends the best parts of stacks and > registers is actually the best. > It has never been about how good the processor is. It is > mostly marketing. Like Mr Gates and his wonderfull Wind^H^H^H^H BASIC. > Dwight PS, Does anybody have BYTE's small C benchmarks on line? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Oct 22 14:15:20 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:15:20 -0700 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: <453BBE72.4070608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >From: woodelf > >dwight elvey wrote: > >> >> >> >>>From: "Chuck Guzis" >> >>---SNIP--- >> >>> >>>Stack machines have been with us at least since the early 60's. >>>There must be a reason that when it comes to applications needing raw >>>performance that no manufacturer adopts the model. >>> >>>Cheers, >>>Chuck >>> >> >>Hi >>Take any machine from the 1990's and write a routine that >>can sort 1K 16 bit integers in 19.2ms. That was done on a >>stack machine running with a 4 MHz clock! > >A) Memory access time??? It uses normal 150 ns memory but is was accessing 16 bits in 250ns of the clock speed. >B) Code & data listing??? I'd have to look around for the listing. I'm not sure how much good it will do since it was optimized for that particular stack engine ( NC4000 ). Dwight > >>A machine that blends the best parts of stacks and >>registers is actually the best. >>It has never been about how good the processor is. It is >>mostly marketing. > >Like Mr Gates and his wonderfull Wind^H^H^H^H BASIC. > >>Dwight >PS, Does anybody have BYTE's small C benchmarks on line? > > _________________________________________________________________ Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Oct 22 14:19:10 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 08:19:10 +1300 Subject: LCD TV's with Home computers In-Reply-To: <873fa278d63bc0cf7908fbbc3d366d62@mac.com> References: <873fa278d63bc0cf7908fbbc3d366d62@mac.com> Message-ID: On 10/23/06, roger pugh wrote: > Does anyone have any experience running home computers, Commodores, > Sinclair's, Apple II's and the like on one of these modern LCD TV's. > Can they lock on to the cheap modulator signals or work with the > composite or RGB. > I'm thinking of getting rid of a bulky tv set and various rgb and black > and white monitors and use a modern solution. I haven't tried anything as modern as a C-64, but an Elf w/CDP1861 will *not* work on one (nor on many CRTs made in the past 15 years) because it isn't really "spot on" NTSC video - it's close, but only close enough for old analog monitors. >From my experience, any display new enough to have heavily integrated components for locking onto the video does not like the output of the standard 1861 circuit (as seen in the original Popular Electronics series on the 1802, the RCA reference design for the 1861, the Elf II, the COSMAC VIP, the Spare Time Gizmos Elf2000, etc). I have had lack of success with modern LCD monitors w/NTSC input, Apple 5" CRTs for the Apple IIc, and a wide variety of recently-made displays. I have had total success with B&W CRTs over 20 years old. OTOH, for something slightly newer than an 1861, such as your examples of the C-64, etc., I'd expect them to work with modern video hardware. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 22 14:20:26 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <453BB951.1070700@yahoo.co.uk> References: <002101c6f328$e8af6cd0$6600a8c0@barry>, <4537DFD3.5030601@yahoo.co.uk>, <45381500.903@philpem.me.uk> <45380B0D.1100.A5E3B73@cclist.sydex.com> <45391AEF.8010105@mdrconsult.com> <453929F1.6060302@yahoo.co.uk> <20061021133258.J11243@shell.lmi.net> <1CBD1097-4BA3-4D3D-A273-2E72D25E601A@neurotica.com> <20061021155113.R11243@shell.lmi.net> <453BB951.1070700@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061022121257.K49342@shell.lmi.net> > >> Have you found a stash of Ampro Little Boards? If so, please > > . . . > > There were at least a half a dozen different brands of miniature > > motherboards in that form factor. Are they all rare now? > On Sun, 22 Oct 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > Will they all read / write FM density, WITH A FEW EXCEPTIONS. The x86 ones tend to be reasonable implementations of 37C65, The Z80 ones tend to be WD 179x > and allow raw bit-level access to the > track data coming from the floppy drive, though? No well, the 179x (Z80 ones) have a track read, but additional MINOR circuitry will be needed to get flux transition level access. > I think that's what we're > hoping for from a data imaging device... As you state later, there are at least three different projects/goals being conflated here! 1) One of the most commonly stated is "I want an external 5.25" drive". 2) I want a flux transition editor and recorder 3) I want a universal recovery tool. > Actually, there's perhaps three different projects that would be useful to tackle: > 1) Off-the-shelf imaging box using a stock FDC chip capable of MFM and FM > (with little ability to handle faulty media) > 2) Custom imaging box [ which may mean scrap PC + extras ] that does data > sampling at the drive digital interface level and reconstruction ( / > deconstruction) in software. > 3) Custom imaging box which hooks to the floppy drive's heads directly and > uses a DAC / ADC; essentially as option 2 but can cope with marginal signal > levels to reconstruct data. > Unless I'm completely misreading the discussion :-) Each participant has hold of a different part of the elephant. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 22 14:29:56 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 14:29:56 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) References: , <018b01c6f592$868dfb40$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP>, <453B2330.3010507@oldskool.org><453B3739.32310.16C2C32B@cclist.sydex.com> <453BB372.9020506@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <00cd01c6f610$794e1db0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote... > But what I take offense to is the notion of some people here that the > interpreter was *so* cleverly written that it could beat *any* compiler > for that language, which is just BS. Jim, I didn't say that [an] "interpreter was *so* cleverly written that it could beat *any* compiler" Matter of fact, I was simply rebutting your assertion that a compiler was always faster and if it's not, that the compiler must be broken. That is a sweeping generalization that is just plain BS. Jay From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Oct 22 14:31:14 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 21:31:14 +0200 Subject: **for grabs** power supply H7868B fro R215F - gone References: <3eb33e6606e74ebab43b396cbb55c9ff@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C2037F@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> >Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Scott Quinn >Verzonden: zo 22-10-2006 18:33 >Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Onderwerp: RE: **for grabs** power supply H7868B fro R215F > >Not sure about the power supply, but I would encourage you to consider >putting the RF72s for sale on E-bay or something similar. When I was looking >to outfit my VAX about a year and a half ago, DSSI drives were quite expensive >for their size (generally at least >US$40 for a RF72 >(I wound up using a HSD05-AA and SCSI drives built into the BA440). Thanks for the heads up Scott, but it's too late :-) I promised the drives (in fact the whole R215F, allthough I disassembled it) to a teacher up in the north of The Netherlands. He is restoring a VAX6000 as sort of a study project with some students. Perhaps I could have made a few $, but my guess is that not many people in the USA would buy a drive that must be shipped across the pond. Too much risk of damage, and the shipping costs are not low either. You know the weight of an RF72! So, perhaps I lost a few $$, but OTOH, I have a good feeling about it now by just giving it away for a good cause :-) I am still thinking of putting an 11/34A together with an RX01 and RL02 in an H960 rack and try to sell that, but it would go to somebody nearby, as I am not going to crate it! (Yes, I really need to recover some space, and I have three 11/34A's of which two have not yet been powered up. If I will sell one, it will be in working condition). Sorry to drift off topic :-) - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 22 14:43:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:43:21 -0700 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: References: <453A481C.239.131CB9B1@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <453B6769.16398.177EFF35@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Oct 2006 at 11:21, dwight elvey wrote: > Take any machine from the 1990's and write a routine that > can sort 1K 16 bit integers in 19.2ms. That was done on a > stack machine running with a 4 MHz clock! ANY machine? I daresay the non-stack Cray C-90 could do considerably better than that! My point is that in the somewhat rarefied supercomputer world where computational performance is pretty much the entire game, not ONE machine deployed as far as I know was a stack machine. It would seem that if a stack machine had it all over memory-register systems performance-wise that you'd find at least a single instance of one in that market. ...and how does one efficiently do large vector arithmetic on a stack machine? Cheers, Chuck From rogpugh at mac.com Sun Oct 22 14:44:04 2006 From: rogpugh at mac.com (roger pugh) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:44:04 +0100 Subject: LCD TV's with Home computers In-Reply-To: References: <873fa278d63bc0cf7908fbbc3d366d62@mac.com> Message-ID: <83d1e874e06cfd427a67564021afd703@mac.com> Thanks Ethan and Charles. Nothing i have is older than Apple II, trash-80, or video genie. I should have specified PAL as i'm on the eastern side of the Atlantic. Although NTSC is also relevant for coco3 and others to use. Higher picture quality is not an issue with me but space is. Houses here in south east england are a bit smaller than average. According to the wife i have way too many beige/black boxes (computers) and TV's (monitors). | was hoping an autotunning lcd tv with various inputs will replace a few monitors leaving me more desk space. Roger From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Oct 22 15:08:54 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:08:54 +1300 Subject: Anyone have a datasheet for a Datel MX-1606? Message-ID: >From my googling, I can see that this is a 16-channel CMOS multiplexer. I have 3 here, harvested from a university-built bit of laboratory hardware and I'm wondering if I can put them to use in something. What I lack is a pinout or any detailed specs. Anyone have any in-depth info on the MX-1606? Thanks, -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Oct 22 15:03:08 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 16:03:08 -0400 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <453B2049.1050400@oldskool.org> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com><001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com><002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org> <00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <453AEED9.6090609@oldskool.org> <453B1480.9000408@gmail.com> <453B2049.1050400@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <453BCE7C.3010909@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Jim Leonard wrote: >>> I call serious BS on the statement "some interpreters were faster >>> than some compilers". People are going to have to back that up with >>> actual examples before it becomes believable. >> >> Microsoft QuickBASIC 4.5. Try it with "Gorillas". > > And what interpreter? QuickBASIC 4.5. Compiled programs compiled by QuickBASIC 4.5 is slower than interpreted programs run under the QuickBASIC 4.5 interpreter. Peace... Sridhar From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Oct 22 16:38:02 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 16:38:02 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <453BCE7C.3010909@gmail.com> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com><001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com><002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org> <00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <453AEED9.6090609@oldskool.org> <453B1480.9000408@gmail.com> <453B2049.1050400@oldskool.org> <453BCE7C.3010909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <453BE4BA.7010401@oldskool.org> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: >> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Jim Leonard wrote: >>>> I call serious BS on the statement "some interpreters were faster >>>> than some compilers". People are going to have to back that up with >>>> actual examples before it becomes believable. >>> >>> Microsoft QuickBASIC 4.5. Try it with "Gorillas". >> >> And what interpreter? > > QuickBASIC 4.5. Compiled programs compiled by QuickBASIC 4.5 is slower > than interpreted programs run under the QuickBASIC 4.5 interpreter. I don't have 4.5 but I do have 4.0 so that's what I used and it was substantially faster compiled, particularly in the graphics routines. I wasn't sure how I was supposed to use a game as a benchmark, so I did my own test anyway: I took QB 4.0 on my 5160 and altered SORTDEMO.BAS to force a uniform reverse-sorted list and remove all arbitrary delays, and then ran the Exchange Sort demo (has the least amount of screen drawing; see later). Here are the times in seconds: QB 4.0, interpreted (not really, it's p-code): 7.141 QB 4.0 compiled, runtime linked in: 6.320 MS-DOS Qbasic 1.1: 9.551 MSDOS Qbasic 1.1 may have had an unfair disadvantage because it had slower screen draw routines than the others, but all of the sorts that didn't rely on random variables (insertion, bubble, exchange, shell) across the board showed that the compiled version was faster by a small margin. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Oct 22 16:44:10 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 16:44:10 -0500 Subject: Wow; $192 for a 5.25" floppy disk drive In-Reply-To: <006701c6f47c$5f346870$6600a8c0@barry> References: <200610201700.k9KH0V0u030708@dewey.classiccmp.org> <006701c6f47c$5f346870$6600a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20061022163249.08de0fd8@mail> At 02:17 PM 10/20/2006, Barry Watzman wrote: >I really believe that there is a relatively large market for such a device >(USB to 5.25 (and possibly 8") interface). I'm thinking tens or hundreds of >thousands of units (not a significant market penetration in a world with >hundreds of millions of PCs in use and an additional 100 million sold >annually, but enough to make design and manufacture easily justifiable). If you believe the above... >I personally don't care about a cat-weasel type device that tries to capture >every flux transition on the disc. I don't care about hard sector formats >either (Heathkit, NorthStar) unless I can do them with no great extra >effort. ... then you and the hypothetical person who wants to read aging floppies would also want it to "just work", so handling typical errors in a smarter fashion would be a big feature of the product, no? I tend to like the sound of the Linux approach for the hobbyists, too. A minimal open but custom PCI or ISA board would be great. - John From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Oct 22 17:17:50 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 23:17:50 +0100 Subject: VAX 8600 (was Re: the last MIT ITS dec-20 (AI.MIT.EDU) is up for sale) In-Reply-To: <45379E4D.6090101@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 19/10/06 16:48, "Sridhar Ayengar" wrote: >>> system but >>> beware that they're huge because I wanted to make sure all the components >>> were in place..... >> >> Please do; I'd love to see them! > > Seconded! Aaaand done! http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Digital/VAX8600/index.php :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 22 17:21:06 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 23:21:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: LCD TV's with Home computers In-Reply-To: <873fa278d63bc0cf7908fbbc3d366d62@mac.com> from "roger pugh" at Oct 22, 6 12:39:48 pm Message-ID: > > Does anyone have any experience running home computers, Commodores, > Sinclair's, Apple II's and the like on one of these modern LCD TV's. > Can they lock on to the cheap modulator signals or work with the > composite or RGB. > I'm thinking of getting rid of a bulky tv set and various rgb and black > and white monitors and use a modern solution. Not really what you're asking, but I suspect the technology is similar : I recently needed to show the output of an HP71 handheld computer to a small audience, and I found that a borrowed video projector (which could accept SVGA and composite video inputs) could display the composite output of HP's 80 column video interface (which is a fairly normal 6845-based design, and which outputs composite monochrome video at RS-170 rates). The only thing was it was best to tell the projector that it was getting 'NTSC' video rather than letting it autodetect. Maybe it was the absense of the colourburst or something, but it sometimes got a bit confused. Mu guess, without trying it [1] is that a modern LCD TV would have no problems with home computer output. [1] Personally, I'd rather have a CRT-based monitor that I can understand and repair than an LCD thing full of big ASICs. -tony > > Roger > > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Oct 22 17:55:35 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 15:55:35 -0700 Subject: VAX 6000 at BDI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <453BF6E7.9070803@sbcglobal.net> There is a VAX 6000 system up for auction (closing tonight) on auctionbdi.com. Look at lots 167 through 170 Bob From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Oct 22 18:10:56 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 16:10:56 -0700 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: <453B6769.16398.177EFF35@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 22 Oct 2006 at 11:21, dwight elvey wrote: > > > Take any machine from the 1990's and write a routine that > > can sort 1K 16 bit integers in 19.2ms. That was done on a > > stack machine running with a 4 MHz clock! > >ANY machine? I daresay the non-stack Cray C-90 could do considerably >better than that! > >My point is that in the somewhat rarefied supercomputer world where >computational performance is pretty much the entire game, not ONE >machine deployed as far as I know was a stack machine. It would seem >that if a stack machine had it all over memory-register systems >performance-wise that you'd find at least a single instance of one in >that market. > Hi Chuck Sure a machine the size of a Cray should do faster but the stack machine I was using was created in an ASIC with less then 4000 gates. I was comparing to traditional micro's of the day. >...and how does one efficiently do large vector arithmetic on a stack >machine? Most of the stack machines I've seen were not optimized to deal with large vectors. This isn't to say that if the design was targetting a vector machine that it would be fast. Over the years, several machines have been created that ran quite fast. A variation of the NC4000 made by Rockwell ( I think called the RT2000 ) was often used on DSP excelerator cards. This considering that it wasn't, as you might say, optimized for vectors and had no MAC. Todays DSP's could beat it but at the time is was one of the fastest setups. Most of the reason for lack of success is advertizing and manufacture labling. The other is that most common high level languages have grown up around the register based machines. They just work better on these machines. Dwight > >Cheers, >Chuck > > > _________________________________________________________________ All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial! http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Oct 22 18:15:11 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 00:15:11 +0100 Subject: VAX 6000 at BDI In-Reply-To: <453BF6E7.9070803@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On 22/10/06 23:55, "Bob Rosenbloom" wrote: > There is a VAX 6000 system up for auction (closing tonight) on > auctionbdi.com. > > Look at lots 167 through 170 I know where there's a VAX 6660 for free as long as you pay shipping...... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ray at arachelian.com Sun Oct 22 19:14:23 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:14:23 -0400 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: <453B6769.16398.177EFF35@cclist.sydex.com> References: <453A481C.239.131CB9B1@cclist.sydex.com>, <453B6769.16398.177EFF35@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <453C095F.7090604@arachelian.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > ...and how does one efficiently do large vector arithmetic on a stack > machine? > The same way one efficiently does large vector arithmetic on a non-stack machine. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 22 19:53:14 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 19:53:14 -0500 Subject: HP stuff on ebay Message-ID: <000b01c6f63d$a22109f0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I noticed this in a different category than usual... ebay item # 250040699675 It's an HP 13037C rackmount controller. Doesn't power up, but, there's one day left at 14 bucks. Since it has a complete set of cables it's worth $14 just for that. This item is required for 7905/06/20 disc drives. There's also a 7970E in case no one noticed in the usual category. Jay From jclang at notms.net Sun Oct 22 19:58:24 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:58:24 -0400 Subject: ZRQC formatter issue In-Reply-To: <200610220319.k9M3JhYl032616@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200610220319.k9M3JhYl032616@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <06102220582401.01340@bell> On Saturday 21 October 2006 23:19, you wrote: > Esteemed DEC Wizards, > > I'm trying to format a Seagate ST251-1 (40 MB MFM drive) connected > to an RQDX3 using ZRQCH0 from XXDP25. The formatter runs for over > two minutes, stepping the heads steadily, and announcing completion > of over 50,000 LBNs written. It seems to write all of the low level > format, then dies with this error: > > ZRQC SYS FTL ERR 00007 ON UNIT 00 TST 01 SUB 000 PC: 105472 > Controller has reported a fatal error in the format program > Status: FCT nonexistent > > The drive was originally used with WD controllers on 486 class MS-DOS > machines. > > How do I get an FCT onto the drive? Do I need to somehow wipe some > additional space on the drive to trick ZRQC into thinking this is a > raw drive, or something? > > Thanks, > > be sure to answer: auto format mode = No use RCT = No manufacturing bad block information = No downline load UIT = Yes continue if bad block information is inaccessable = Yes you should be good to go... joe lang From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Oct 22 20:52:23 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 21:52:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Compilers vs. Interpreters In-Reply-To: <453B8789.8060800@brutman.com> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com><001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com><002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org> <00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <453B8789.8060800@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200610230153.VAA25372@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The only time I can see an interpreter having a clear advantage is > when it knows something about the runtime environment that the > compiler and [its] runtime can't know. I'm having trouble thinking of an example of such a "something". Can you cite one? It'd help me understand. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Oct 22 20:53:30 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 21:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <453B3739.32310.16C2C32B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <018b01c6f592$868dfb40$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP>, <453B2330.3010507@oldskool.org> <453B3739.32310.16C2C32B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200610230157.VAA25414@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Take a simple string expression, for example: > D$=A$+B$+C$ > [...] The code could get as bad as: [...really stupid > implementation...] Well, yes. (And an interpreted implementation could be stupid too.) I don't think anyone has said that a stupid compiled implementation can't be beat by a smart interpreter. What I'm having trouble with is the claim that some interpreters can beat compiled code in general, rather than specific (and stupid) compilers' output. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 22 21:11:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 19:11:17 -0700 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: <453C095F.7090604@arachelian.com> References: <453A481C.239.131CB9B1@cclist.sydex.com>, <453B6769.16398.177EFF35@cclist.sydex.com>, <453C095F.7090604@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <453BC255.22115.18E22716@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Oct 2006 at 20:14, Ray Arachelian wrote: > The same way one efficiently does large vector arithmetic on a non-stack > machine. I'm talking about SIMD implementations here. ADDSV (R1,R4),(R2,R5),(R3,R6) Add the two sparse vectors The point being that most vector capabilities are three-address implementations--because they run fastest. Cray went so far as to adopt 3-address architecture using vector registers rather than 3-address memory-to-memory operations. But no stack vector machines exist to the best of my knowledge, although a vector stack would certainly be possible to construct. No, what I've seen are your dumb old three-address implementations. I think that speaks volumes regarding performance. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 22 21:15:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 19:15:27 -0700 Subject: Compilers vs. Interpreters In-Reply-To: <200610230153.VAA25372@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: , <453B8789.8060800@brutman.com>, <200610230153.VAA25372@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <453BC34F.3138.18E5F647@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Oct 2006 at 21:52, der Mouse wrote: > I'm having trouble thinking of an example of such a "something". Can > you cite one? It'd help me understand. I can think of one example--the SNOBOL4 CODE() function that compiles and runs a string of source statements at execution time. Maybe that's cheating, though. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 22 12:25:29 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 12:25:29 -0500 Subject: dec /34a issue (Solved) References: <200610221413.k9MEDUF6020781@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <007a01c6f5ff$12cc91e0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Bob wrote... >>Some of the packs you have (and some left behind) have >>the OMSI Pascal compiler for RT-11. Brad replied... > Jay, if you don't want them i'll be happy to retrieve them :-) No, I'm still planning on getting all this stuff from Bob :) I do however also currently have Oregon Software Pascal-2 version 2.1F on RX02 floppies, an original distribution. Jay From feedle at feedle.net Sun Oct 22 23:11:27 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (Chris Sullivan) Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2006 21:11:27 -0700 Subject: LCD TV's with Home computers In-Reply-To: <873fa278d63bc0cf7908fbbc3d366d62@mac.com> References: <873fa278d63bc0cf7908fbbc3d366d62@mac.com> Message-ID: On Oct 22, 2006, at 4:39 AM, roger pugh wrote: > Does anyone have any experience running home computers, Commodores, > Sinclair's, Apple II's and the like on one of these modern LCD > TV's. Can they lock on to the cheap modulator signals or work with > the composite or RGB. > I'm thinking of getting rid of a bulky tv set and various rgb and > black and white monitors and use a modern solution. For the most part, if you purchase a TV that has a "composite" video input (you can identify this by the one [yellow] plug for video and the two plugs [white and red] for audio), you should have no problem using a composite video cable from a Commodore 64.. that is, a cable that plugs in to the multi-pin DIN connector (if I remember right, the 64 used an 8-pin connector that was similar to the VIC-20 and Atari 800 5-pin connector, with extra signals [if memory serves, some kind of pre-SVideo Y/C kind of thing that only Commodore's monitors supported]). On the Apple ][ series, you should be able to take the 40-column video out and run it directly to the same yellow composite video connector. As far as RF modulated video goes, if it'll tune Channel 3 analog, it should have no problems. My HDTV set's built in analog tuner can handle just about everything I've ever plugged into it just fine. Note that I've casually observed that a lot of older hardware has varying quality of the RF output... I have an Atari Video Music box where the RF out appears to be soft, and I had to purchase an analog video amplifier. Note that this even breaks on a $80 Toshiba 13" NTSC glass tube set as well, so it's not just a "modern set problem." RGB video, like the kind used on the Apple //gs and the Commodore 128, is another issue entirely. You're not going to get it working on any TV without some work (I know the C128's RGB port would be particularly nasty). You're not going to get rid of the dedicated monitors for these machines. I keep a CBM 1084S monitor around just for this purpose. It is also worth noting that a lot of stuff out there uses old "analog" composite video. Check the toy department.. there's lots of emulated (and in the case of the Atari 2600, hackable to even run the original cartridges) classic and 16-bit era console game hardware that uses the same connectors. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 22 23:26:38 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 00:26:38 -0400 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1669D400-6DB2-4C62-813A-1A5821923A9E@neurotica.com> On Oct 22, 2006, at 7:10 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > Over the years, several machines have been created that ran quite > fast. A variation of the NC4000 made by Rockwell ( I think called the > RT2000 ) was often used on DSP excelerator cards. RT2000...Do you mean the RTX2000, by Harris? Wow...Novix NC4000 and Harris RTX2000...damn fine Forth chips. I'd sure like to see a Verilog implementation of one of those designs. (well, less "see" and more "compile, burn into a config PROM, and hack on") -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From vp at drexel.edu Mon Oct 23 00:20:45 2006 From: vp at drexel.edu (Vassilis PREVELAKIS) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 01:20:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LCD TV's with Home computers Message-ID: <200610230520.k9N5KjcO027362@dune.cs.drexel.edu> roger pugh wrote: > Does anyone have any experience running home computers, Commodores, > Sinclair's, Apple II's and the like on one of these modern LCD TV's. > Can they lock on to the cheap modulator signals or work with the > composite or RGB. > I'm thinking of getting rid of a bulky tv set and various rgb and black > and white monitors and use a modern solution. Because of space constraints I use a Samsung LCD-TV for my HP 86B, HP 9915A/B computers and my HP-IL video coverters. The display quality is very good, but the LCD-TV does not have the same flexibility in adjusting the display as analogue monitors, so the leftmost 1 or 2 characters are missing. On a Dell LCD monitor with composite input the display appears correctly, so results may vary between LCD panels. **vp From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon Oct 23 01:39:50 2006 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 08:39:50 +0200 Subject: VAX 6000 at BDI In-Reply-To: References: <453BF6E7.9070803@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20061023063949.GH26271@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2006-10-23 00:15:11 +0100, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 22/10/06 23:55, "Bob Rosenbloom" wrote: > > There is a VAX 6000 system up for auction (closing tonight) on > > auctionbdi.com. > > > > Look at lots 167 through 170 > > I know where there's a VAX 6660 for free as long as you pay shipping...... Wow, a '60? I once imported a 6320 from .uk to .de, it was interesting. Shipping was as excepted more expensive than the machine, and getting it down into the cellar was an unique event. We removed anything we could and brought the remaining metal frame down there with four men. We all had aching backs for two weeks. Depending on the rest of the machine (mostly the BI/XMI cards that are next to the CPUs), I'd probably be interested in it. Any chance to get in contact with the owner? MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: http://perl.plover.com/Questions.html the second : From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Oct 23 02:21:59 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 08:21:59 +0100 Subject: VAX 6000 at BDI In-Reply-To: <20061023063949.GH26271@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On 23/10/06 07:39, "Jan-Benedict Glaw" wrote: > Depending on the rest of the machine (mostly the BI/XMI cards that are > next to the CPUs), I'd probably be interested in it. Any chance to > get in contact with the owner? I'll send a mail over today. I've not seen this machine since january so I can't remember exactly what's in it apart from the CPUs and network; I'm pretty sure I transferred the CI stuff to the 7000 that replaced it. Yep, *replaced*. That was a fun week :o) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Oct 23 06:24:18 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:24:18 -0400 Subject: Compilers vs. Interpreters In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 22 Oct 2006 21:52:23 EDT." <200610230153.VAA25372@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200610231124.k9NBOIiX010979@mwave.heeltoe.com> >> The only time I can see an interpreter having a clear advantage is >> when it knows something about the runtime environment that the >> compiler and [its] runtime can't know. > >I'm having trouble thinking of an example of such a "something". Can >you cite one? It'd help me understand. this thread is becomming tedious, and suffused with more noise than information. Think about the case, for example, where the primatives being modeled are large and complex. So, the overhead of the interpreter is swamped by the actual processing. A compiler (or native code) has no advantage in that case becuase (let's say) 90% of the processing is done inside the primative. I think this whole 'concept' is too broad and generic for a simple description. Just trust those who have written compilers and interpreters. Interpreters can be suprising fast and can be more appropriate choices than a compiler. Nothing is black and white. -brad From bqt at softjar.se Mon Oct 23 02:49:17 2006 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:49:17 +0200 Subject: VAX 8600 In-Reply-To: <200610230218.k9N2HqKE080649@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200610230218.k9N2HqKE080649@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <453C73FD.1080200@softjar.se> Adrian Graham wrote: > Aaaand done! > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Digital/VAX8600/index.php > > :) Hey, nice machine! As a person who actually still keep one of these beasts alive, I have a few comments that might, or might not help you. First of all, it's a fairly loaded machine. You have atleast three unibuses, and since you have a TU79, I would think you also have massbus. Really nice. (First time I've actually seen a TU79, btw. Only seen TA79 before.) However, the buts... There is no memory in the machine. Do you keep those cards in a box somewhere, or are you missing them? Also, if you look at the bottom of the large cabinet, there is a box there, with a TOY in it. That TOY contains four lead batteries, that should not be left unattended for more than six months, or they will probably go bad. Without batteries, the machine will not boot. I think I have some document somewhere on how to bypass this if you don't have the batteries. Let me know if you ever get as far as trying to fire the machine up. Also, the smaller cabinet for the machine, that holds the first unibus box, the console Q-bus, and the RL02 drive is a very important item. The RL02 drive holds the console medium. This pack is extremely valuable for you. Without it, you'll have a inoperative machine, since the frontend boots from the RL02, and the frontend then loads the machine with all the microcode also read from the RL02. Almost all diagnostics are also on the RL02. Store it in a good place, and try to make copies of it. Oh, and is it an ASR-35 I see in the background? :-) The 86x0 machines are wonderful, and loads of fun to play with. As long as you have the power and cooling for them. Oh, and make sure you hook the power up right to it, since the fans for the machine are real 3-phase motors, and will run backwards if you get the phases wrong. And that will soon damage the machine as well. Johnny From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Mon Oct 23 07:28:44 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 08:28:44 -0400 Subject: Compilers vs. Interpreters In-Reply-To: <200610230153.VAA25372@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200610231228.k9NCSniu054769@keith.ezwind.net> One can do things in an interpreted enviroment like LISP with self modifiable code and the (eval) statement that can not be easily done in a compiled enviroment. A learning tree can be built and self updating process lists can be constructed and evaluated based on changing input in LISP. This would break many rules in a conventional compiled programming enviroment. Not to mention the problems with using recursion in a compiled enviroment to identify and learn from unformatted input based on previous experiences often with limited or better yet without any human intervention in the learning process. To do these things in a compiled enviroment requires writing an embedded evaluator or interpreter that can me called into action to parse and evaluate changes in the input stream. The other Bob On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 21:52:23 -0400 (EDT), der Mouse wrote: >> The only time I can see an interpreter having a clear advantage is >> when it knows something about the runtime environment that the >> compiler and [its] runtime can't know. >I'm having trouble thinking of an example of such a "something". Can >you cite one? It'd help me understand. >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Oct 23 07:34:09 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 14:34:09 +0200 Subject: looking for an M8637 module Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848805C@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi all, I am looking for an M8637 PMI memory module to make my 11/84 happy. 1 Mb or 2 Mb, it's not really important. Who has a spare board and is willing to sell or trade it? thanks, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Oct 23 08:11:55 2006 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:11:55 -0600 Subject: LCD TV's with Home computers In-Reply-To: <200610230520.k9N5KjcO027362@dune.cs.drexel.edu> References: <200610230520.k9N5KjcO027362@dune.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <453CBF9B.2080609@e-bbes.com> Just because nobody mentioned it yet ... You could also use one of the Video-In cards for the pc, and see your video on the PC-Monitor. And, if you use one of the older (brooktree ?) Video cards, you can program the input signal to whatever you like. From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Oct 23 08:17:38 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:17:38 +0200 Subject: Compilers vs. Interpreters References: <200610231228.k9NCSniu054769@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <001001c6f6a5$9f508990$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Compilers vs. Interpreters > One can do things in an interpreted enviroment like LISP with self modifiable code > and the (eval) statement that can not be easily done in a compiled enviroment. > Many years ago, I programmed in a language called CREDIT, running on Philips P6000 series. This more-or-less interpreted language had some remarkable features. It had a kernel handling the (1 byte) opcodes. For data, 16 blocks (IIRC) were available, but redefinition was allowed. For each data item, max 16 per block, a table was kept specifying the peculiarities of each item. So, a simple MOVE would demand 3 bytes : 1 for the opcode, 1 for the source and 1 for the destination. A MOVE between two indexed items would take 5 bytes, as two bytes were needed for the indexes (1 byte each). This would make it extremely easy to modify the instructions, as you didnt need to know much about the data. Also, the resulting code was so compact, that we could accommodate a back-office routine for entering financial data (30-40 different record types), plus a routine for transmitting the data via a 3270 connection, within 32K bytes Nico From ray at arachelian.com Mon Oct 23 08:41:10 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:41:10 -0400 Subject: Stack machines ARE fast! (was Re: Stack Machines) In-Reply-To: <453BC255.22115.18E22716@cclist.sydex.com> References: <453A481C.239.131CB9B1@cclist.sydex.com>, <453B6769.16398.177EFF35@cclist.sydex.com>, <453C095F.7090604@arachelian.com> <453BC255.22115.18E22716@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <453CC676.5030103@arachelian.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm talking about SIMD implementations here. > > > > > > > > ADDSV (R1,R4),(R2,R5),(R3,R6) Add the two sparse vectors > > The point being that most vector capabilities are three-address > implementations--because they run fastest. > > Cray went so far as to adopt 3-address architecture using vector > registers rather than 3-address memory-to-memory operations. > Yes, and IBM went so far as to implement AltiVec, etc. A stack architecture is not mutually exclusive from a 3-address opcode, nor is a dedicated vector engine exclusive to a stack machine, anymore than an FPU, MMU or anything else. I believe you're confusing different features here. There is no marriage between a register file implementation and a 3-address instruction set architecture, nor any between a register file implementation and a vector unit, nor between a register window architecture and a 3-address ISA. > But no stack vector machines exist to the best of my knowledge, > although a vector stack would certainly be possible to construct. > Exactly. Just because it hasn't been done in the past doesn't mean that a) it can't be done, or b) if implemented properly it won't be faster running C/C++ code over a similar architecture that isn't a stack machine. Nor does it mean that the first implementation of such a thing will be faster than current technology any more than the first RISC's were that much more substantially faster than previous CISC's. > No, what I've seen are your dumb old three-address implementations. > > I think that speaks volumes regarding performance. > It doesn't actually. Nor would a nascent stack machine built today be necessarily much faster than its peers - for the first iterations! Example: For a lot of things a 68040 running at 40Mhz was a lot faster than a 40Mhz SPARC v7. But after a while as the SPARC ISA progressed, you saw better and better implementations that left the Motorola line in the dust. Let's take this analogy further, to say software floating point routines VS hardware FPU's: The one and only thing an FPU buys you is fast floating point math. If you look at the early implementations of Intel's, you'll find references that say software floating point routines on an 8Mhz 68000 were faster. You can't say that any more of software implemented 680x0 floating point instructions versus, the FPU of an intel chip of a P4. Over time, things improve. Mostly incrementally, but they do improve. Expand it a bit out of FPU's: Nor can you say that an FPU is great or poor at vector processing. A mature FPU will run rings around a nascent vector until, but give it a few generations of design and you'll find the now mature vector units will do much better at vector processing than current FPU's. What I'm saying is that I believe you're comparing oranges and pineapples here. They do completely different things. Up until recently you didn't see vector units inside microprocessors. You do now because they're useful and more importantly because they're becoming practical to implement. In the early days you didn't see FPU's or MMU's, nor SIMD's, nor multiple cores built into the microprocessors. You do now. The various technologies involved do different things and speed up processing in different areas of code, (or in the case of an MMU provide memory protection and virtual memory capabilities). Whether a specific CPU implementation uses a two address or three address ISA is independent of how it implements its register access, and is independent of how it implements a vector unit, or an FPU. Whether your architecture has 2 or 3 addressing depends on only one thing: the guy that mapped out the bits of the opcodes and operands to the opcode decode unit. Did he have enough bits for 3 operands, or did he give up and use 2 like most folks? There's a lot you can do with a 64 bit wide instruction that you can't with a 32 or 16 - (unless you have variable sized opcodes and think that the guys using your chip will benefit from what you put in there.) You don't have to take my word for it. Here's the proof! While the SPARC ISA is not a stack machine, it's based on the next closest thing: register windows, which behave identically to a stack architecture machine up until you have to access main memory. Take a look at this example of SPARC assembly code: ld [%l2],%o0 add %l1,%o0,%l1 add %l2,4,%l2 inc %l0 ba loop See those two ADD instructions? How many addresses do they use? Why 3! Would you say that machines with register windows are faster than those without? How far off is a register window from a stack? Don't answer that, let's look at an actual stack machine: Here's a direct quote from the AT&T 92010 Hobbit CPU manual as used in the Eo 440/880's: "True three-operand (triadic) instructions are not provided. However, instruction encoding that provide two source operands and store the full 32-bit result in the accumulator are provided. This instruction is called a two-and-a-half-operand instruction. "For example, the mnemonic for an addition instruction is ADD3, while a two- operand (dyadic) addition is ADD. For this instruction, the two source operands are added and the full 32-bit result is stored in the accumulator." ... Ok, so far so good, but what exactly is the accumulator, sounds like a register, right? Not quite! "1.4.3 Integer Accumulator** The integer accumulator is not an actual hardware register. It is the word in memory above the word addressed by the current stack pointer (CSP). The CSP is either the stack pointer (SP) or the interrupt stack pointer (ISP) as determined by the program status word (PSW). "The integer accumulator normally resides on-chip in the stack cache, but it may be off-chip if the SP = MSP or CSP = ISP." ... So there you have it, a 3 register operation on a stack machine. Ok, granted the third register isn't addressable like the others, but none the less, it is on the stack, just like the rest of the other operands. Why did they do it that way? Same reason everyone does stupid things (at least from some points of view): Compromise! They didn't think it was important enough to expand the ISA for it - so they went a bit cheaper to save on cost fully supporting it. This is because the ISA doesn't have room in the opcode definition for 3 register indexes. But either way, it's still in there. There is absolutely nothing stopping anyone from building an ISA with 3-addresses as you call them, or 3 triadic operands as AT&T calls them. Wow! What a miracle! A Stack machine that takes 3 addresses! Why does this machine suck you ask? Simple, it only has enough room for 64 stack entries in the cache. It doesn't have an FPU. It doesn't have a vector unit. It has only a single core, at the fastest they've built ran at 32MHz. But you know what, for its day and age, and considering that it was meant to be used in portable machines such as PDA's, it compared very nicely to other CPU's of the era. If you look at the size of it's internal cache, it was certainly on par with low end 32 bit CPU's. What else did it feature? MMU with dual 32 entry TLB's 3-stage instruction pipeline A 32 bit integer unit. Tagged math for OOP coding. Prefetch instructions for on demand prefetching Branch prediction and branch folding Instruction Tracing Vector base for interrupts so that you can have multiple processes. Kernel/User mode 7-level interrupt model like the 68000 (NMI + 6 IRQ's) 3K instruction cache implemented as a 3-way set associative cache 256 byte stack cache big endian/little endian byte ordering Was it a CISC or RISC? Neither, it was something in between, they called it a CRISP ISA. But this was not because it's a stack machine, but rather because it didn't use a fixed opcode size. Like CISC machines it used a variable opcode size, and like RISC machines it had lots of registers. Granted most of those registers were on the stack. If you were to build a modern multi-core 64 bit version of the Hobbit CPU, add an FPU and vector unit and large enough split caches, you'd find it would work quite nicely. But was it fast you ask? To answer your question get your hands on two machines running the PenPoint OS. Two machines from the 1992 era! An AT&T Eo 440 and an IBM Thinkpad 730 The TP730 used a 486SL/33 (no fpu), 8MB of RAM and optional hard drives. The Eo 440 used the Hobbit 92010 running at 20Mhz, and the Eo 880 ran at 30Mhz. They had 4MB of RAM and optional hard drives. Wanna guess which was faster? I'll give you a hint, it's the machine that has the famous deathstar logo on it! Yes, even the low end 440 running at *20Mhz* with *HALF* the RAM outruns the Thinkpad! Now, that's comparing apples to oranges, sure, since they're different machines with different motherboards and chips, but sorry, I've no other way to compare them. That said, if you open up an Eo, you'll find mostly standard PC hardware beyond the AT&T Hobbit chips. And they ran the same operating system: penpoint. Yet, if you compare something very basic such as the response time of the time when it refreshes the screen, (I don't mean just bitblit drawing, but rather when it performed CPU intensive operations), the Eo outran it. In fact, it outran it in every operation I tried including the crappy handwriting recognition. Is it possible that a stack machine could actually fast? Wow! We must be in an alternate universe or something! http://pencomputing.com/old_pcm_website/PCM_7/review_thinkpad_730te.html http://www.bebox.nu/history.php?s=history/eo http://www.quepublishing.com/articles/article.asp?p=481859&seqNum=15&rl=1 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 23 09:55:34 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 07:55:34 -0700 Subject: Stack Machines In-Reply-To: <1669D400-6DB2-4C62-813A-1A5821923A9E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >From: Dave McGuire > >On Oct 22, 2006, at 7:10 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >>Over the years, several machines have been created that ran quite >>fast. A variation of the NC4000 made by Rockwell ( I think called the >>RT2000 ) was often used on DSP excelerator cards. > > RT2000...Do you mean the RTX2000, by Harris? Wow...Novix NC4000 and >Harris RTX2000...damn fine Forth chips. I'd sure like to see a Verilog >implementation of one of those designs. (well, less "see" and more >"compile, burn into a config PROM, and hack on") > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Cape Coral, FL > Hi Dave Yes, I mean Harris RTX2000. A little brain fade. I have a NC4000 on a delta board. I made a few changes. It now has a shadowed boot ROM and I have both hard and floppy drives connected. Chuck is right that vector math is a little difficult to do efficiently. It is just that most stack machines have been implemented as simple stacks. This is mostly to keep them small and fast otherwise. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial! http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 23 11:23:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 09:23:46 -0700 Subject: Stack machines ARE fast! (was Re: Stack Machines) In-Reply-To: <453CC676.5030103@arachelian.com> References: <453A481C.239.131CB9B1@cclist.sydex.com>, <453BC255.22115.18E22716@cclist.sydex.com>, <453CC676.5030103@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <453C8A22.27514.1BEE9DFC@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Oct 2006 at 9:41, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Is it possible that a stack machine could actually fast? Wow! We must > be in an alternate universe or something! All of which to my original point, looks to be a non-sequitur. Give me an example of a supercomper using a stack architecture. Certainly, I can emulate any kind of architecture using any other (complete) architecture--I should hope so! But when raw performance counts (i.e. supercomputers) why are there no examples of stack machines? The architecture's been around long enough; implementors have pretty much a free hand with architecture; customers don't care what the ISA is--so where are all of the high- performance stack supercomputers? Certainly there have been interesting implementations through time. Heck, I was a fan of dataflow machines, once. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Oct 23 11:58:53 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 12:58:53 -0400 Subject: LCD TV's with Home computers In-Reply-To: References: <873fa278d63bc0cf7908fbbc3d366d62@mac.com> Message-ID: <200610231258.53413.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 23 October 2006 00:11, Chris Sullivan wrote: > For the most part, if you purchase a TV that has a "composite" video > input (you can identify this by the one [yellow] plug for video and > the two plugs [white and red] for audio), you should have no problem > using a composite video cable from a Commodore 64.. that is, a cable > that plugs in to the multi-pin DIN connector (if I remember right, > the 64 used an 8-pin connector that was similar to the VIC-20 and > Atari 800 5-pin connector, with extra signals [if memory serves, some > kind of pre-SVideo Y/C kind of thing that only Commodore's monitors > supported]). Some of the early c64 boards also used a 5-pin DIN connectot. You could plug a 5-pin plug into either the 5- or 8-pin sockets and it would still work, though. <...> > RGB video, like the kind used on the Apple //gs and the Commodore > 128, is another issue entirely. You're not going to get it working > on any TV without some work (I know the C128's RGB port would be > particularly nasty). You're not going to get rid of the dedicated > monitors for these machines. I keep a CBM 1084S monitor around just > for this purpose. At least on the 128 you could get monochrome video out of that connector. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ray at arachelian.com Mon Oct 23 12:35:00 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 13:35:00 -0400 Subject: Stack machines ARE fast! (was Re: Stack Machines) In-Reply-To: <453C8A22.27514.1BEE9DFC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <453A481C.239.131CB9B1@cclist.sydex.com>, <453BC255.22115.18E22716@cclist.sydex.com>, <453CC676.5030103@arachelian.com> <453C8A22.27514.1BEE9DFC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <453CFD44.7020201@arachelian.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > All of which to my original point, looks to be a non-sequitur. > Indeed! Somehow you started out with the "It has to have a 3-address to be fast" and "how would you do vector math on a stack machine" argument, and now you change your song when the very thing I've pointed to showed you a stack architecture that uses a 3-address mode? And one that beats out a very similar other machine at that! Nice try! I suppose this kind of cut and run tactic must work on some folks. ;-) Speaking of vectors, have you heard about http://www.sun.com/processors/vis/ - yeah, that's an extension to the UltraSPARC line. :-D > Give me an example of a supercomper using a stack architecture. > Certainly, I can emulate any kind of architecture using any other > (complete) architecture--I should hope so! > I'm sorry, how's that again? Who spoke of emulation? :-) > But when raw performance counts (i.e. supercomputers) why are there > no examples of stack machines? The architecture's been around long > enough; implementors have pretty much a free hand with architecture; > customers don't care what the ISA is--so where are all of the high- > performance stack supercomputers? > Ask supercomputer designers, I'm not one of them, and no familiar with what's out there. It doesn't matter that much anyway since a lot of supercomputers today are built from common off the shelf microcomputer CPU's. That said, I just showed you two very similar 32 bit architectures of the same era that ran the very same OS and were meant for the same purpose: PDA's. They aren't mainframes or supercomputers, they're micros. They were built to run the same OS and have very similar hardware, right down to the RF based digitizer tablet. The type of computer doesn't matter. The basic principles of all computers have a lot in common. What you see on supercomputers, you'll see on microcomputers within reason. Even today, you see multi-core CPU machines that were you to compare with past supercomputers, would pass for such to some extent. They all have ALU's, FPU's, MMU's, RAM, disks, networking, buses, multiple CPU's, I/O devices, etc. They're all computers. You've conveniently ignored the data point where a stack machine beat out a very similar non-stack machine, and retreated to the supercomputer realm. This isn't analogous to the some species of well written interpreter beat some species of poorly implemented compilers. These two machines are very similar and run the same OS. Yet, one beat out the other. You can speak of performance in one area or another, but claiming that a machine that lacks a vector unit, but uses a stack architecture is slower than a machine with a vector unit and uses a register file is a very poor argument. There's nothing to prevent you from building a stack machine that has a vector unit. Of course, for vector math, a vector unit speeds things up, but what if you don't need to do vector math? What if your benchmark is deep recursion, not iteration? Of course a 3-address Instruction Set easier to write a compiler for than 2-address instruction set. But then, in the same way, so is a stack machine's ISA a lot easier to write an optimizing compiler than on a machine that has a plain register file and no register windows. And yes, having a vector unit makes code that uses it much faster, as does having an FPU make floating point code faster. Back to the PenPoint machines: The one machine with the stack architecture outperformed the one without. The one with the stack architecture does infact have the ability to use 3 operands. One of them was implied, but also lives on the stack. It met ALL of your requirements save the supercomputer one, which I find specious. I'll address that in the very next paragraph: Another CPU I've mentioned, the SPARC, is similar to a stack machine in it's use of register windows, and does use 3 operands in its opcodes. In fact SPARC chips are used in supercomputers: Fujitsu PRIMEPOWER HPC2500. So I'm sure you'll find a reason as to why this doesn't fit your request to be shown a stack architecture based supercomputer, and you'd be right as the SPARC isn't a stack architecture. But, in regards to this discussion, it sure quacks like a duck and has the same kinds of feathers. :-) A canard perhaps? 8^) This isn't to say that every stack machine architecture will beat every other non-stack architecture at all jobs. The assertion here is only that a that a well designed stack machine will outperform a well designed non-stack machine with similar other features in one specific area: function calls. Period. I don't believe that I've asserted anything else in this discussion, and I believe that whether on a supercomputer, mainframe, mini, microprocessor, or microcontroller the above statement will hold. From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Mon Oct 23 14:14:11 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 20:14:11 +0100 Subject: Stack machines ARE fast! (was Re: Stack Machines) In-Reply-To: <453CFD44.7020201@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <000401c6f6d7$6c0bec00$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > This isn't to say that every stack machine architecture will beat every > other non-stack architecture at all jobs. The assertion here is only > that a that a well designed stack machine will outperform a well > designed non-stack machine with similar other features in one specific > area: function calls. Period. With that proviso in mind you have an almost self-fulfilling assertion. Function calls in the modern sense (allowing recursion and re-entrancy) can either be handled by a genuine stack (as in "stack machine") or an emulated stack - and the latter has a virtual certainty of being slower. In the older sense where fixed locations and self-modifying-code was acceptable (eg in the CDC6600 and most pre-PDP-11 minicomputers) then a stack was either slower (because emulated) or required more CPU logic (and thus cost more). The B5500 was indeed a very potent machine of its era ... it was also an extremely expensive one. Nowadays any "reasonable" amount of CPU logic essentially costs the same and thus stacks are "free" ... unless, perhaps, you are trying to do something like the EIS on the big GE/Honeywell machines. "Now those four boards are the main CPU including floating point ... and those additional 9 boards are the EIS which is essentially hardware COBOL". (Although EIS also extended the range of address modes to a more complex set than I have seen in any other machine prior or later - the VAX had nothing like the range) Incidently old COBOL programs were notable for the almost complete absence of function calls - and I bet many "dusty decks" from 30 years ago are still being run daily with few significant modifications. I was going to stay out of this "discussion", but felt that a little light might moderate some of the heat. (However, I doubt it :-( Andy From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 23 14:21:17 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 14:21:17 -0500 Subject: DEC boot rom image sought Message-ID: <007301c6f6d8$70c0cc10$6700a8c0@BILLING> Yup, I know it's been asked for here time and again, but I'm going to try and keep it in folks minds ;) Would anyone have the DEC boot rom for the M9312 that boots off TMSCP TK50 & TU81 (MU)? Please check your M9312 boards and your PDP-11/44 boot roms for rom "E39A9" or part number "23-E39A9". If you have it, I (and a few others) would love if I could borrow it to make an image. Best regards, Jay West From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Oct 23 14:32:24 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:32:24 -0400 Subject: DEC boot rom image sought In-Reply-To: <007301c6f6d8$70c0cc10$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <007301c6f6d8$70c0cc10$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <453D18C8.3030004@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > Yup, I know it's been asked for here time and again, but I'm going to > try and keep it in folks minds ;) > > Would anyone have the DEC boot rom for the M9312 that boots off TMSCP > TK50 & TU81 (MU)? Please check your M9312 boards and your PDP-11/44 boot > roms for rom "E39A9" or part number "23-E39A9". Uhhhh. I'm pretty sure one of my /44s booted a TU80 in its previous life and I know one of them booted SDI. Would either of those do ya? Doc From ray at arachelian.com Mon Oct 23 14:43:29 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:43:29 -0400 Subject: Stack machines ARE fast! (was Re: Stack Machines) In-Reply-To: <000401c6f6d7$6c0bec00$655b2c0a@w2kdell> References: <000401c6f6d7$6c0bec00$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <453D1B61.20906@arachelian.com> Andy Holt wrote: > In the older sense where fixed locations and self-modifying-code was > acceptable (eg in the CDC6600 and most pre-PDP-11 minicomputers) then a > stack was either slower (because emulated) or required more CPU logic (and > thus cost more). The B5500 was indeed a very potent machine of its era ... > it was also an extremely expensive one. > Yes, and quite ironically, the thing that did in self-modifying code was the cache. Ok, well pipelining did help drive that nail in the coffin of self modifying code as well. :-) There are some interesting optimizations that you can do with self modifying code that we just don't have today, but overall, the benefits of caches and pipelines outweigh them. > Nowadays any "reasonable" amount of CPU logic essentially costs the same and > thus stacks are "free" Exactly. > Incidently old COBOL programs were notable for the almost complete absence > of function calls - and I bet many "dusty decks" from 30 years ago are still > being run daily with few significant modifications. > Sure, even today when you have a specific application in a device that's very short on memory, let alone stacks, then you have no choice but to write code that can't use stacks. So a stack architecture would be useless there. Writing that code would also be an insane braint wisting effort too. > I was going to stay out of this "discussion", but felt that a little light > might moderate some of the heat. (However, I doubt it :-( > > This may be shocking, but I don't personally care about that much about stack machines. :-) No, seriously, the thing that got my goat was the fuzzy thinking around how one would have a magically fast machine if you had a 3-address ISA and how it's important to do vectors and how a stack machine can't possibly do vectors, and that unless a supercomputer has it, it's just not important somehow. Stuff like this is just pure superstition. (I'd normally use stronger language here, but I didn't want to get too impolite.) :-D For my own needs, I buy whatever reasonably fast machine I can afford from the likes of AMD or Intel and slap either Linux of a BSD on it depending on the need. For day to day use, I've zero use for a vector engine, and zero use for a stack machine. It might be fun to have a nice fast graphics card, which of course would make great use of a GPU that did vectors, but, you know what, I almost don't bother playing modern games at all. I may fire up MAME and play PacMan or Defender until I'm bored, but that's about it. I did go and buy a Playstation 2 back in the day, but after about 6 hours of play, it's been gathering dust for the last 3 years. GPU wise, I might make an exception for OpenCroquet, but beyond that, vector engines or GPU's aren't all useful to me at all. For the stuff that I do, I don't require register windows, stack machines, vector units, GPU's. FPU's are nice, but I don't find myself doing very much requiring them. If they're included in the box I buy, great! Wonderful! Won't make that much of a difference. On the other hand, if I'm recommending a machine professionally, I certainly take into account what their code does, how it works, what resources it needs, and what can make it run faster, and pick accordingly to those specs and their budget. Yes, I do have a very nice set of SPARC and UltraSPARC machines, as well as an Indy and HP-PA, and Eo's, various Macs, and a bunch of beautiful classic 8-bit machines, but day to day, stacks don't make a bit of difference to me. :-) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 23 14:57:49 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 13:57:49 -0600 Subject: Stack machines ARE fast! (was Re: Stack Machines) In-Reply-To: <453D1B61.20906@arachelian.com> References: <000401c6f6d7$6c0bec00$655b2c0a@w2kdell> <453D1B61.20906@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <453D1EBD.7020402@jetnet.ab.ca> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Yes, I do have a very nice set of SPARC and UltraSPARC machines, as well > as an Indy and HP-PA, and Eo's, various Macs, and a bunch of beautiful > classic 8-bit machines, but day to day, stacks don't make a bit of > difference to me. :-) Lets not forget about Smalltalk and better hardware back then than today. Today you can throw a gizzlion gates or so in hardware, but the early graphic machines had to do things with simple software and hardware. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Mon Oct 23 14:56:39 2006 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:56:39 +0200 Subject: DEC boot rom image sought In-Reply-To: <007301c6f6d8$70c0cc10$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <007301c6f6d8$70c0cc10$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <20061023195639.GV26271@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2006-10-23 14:21:17 -0500, Jay West wrote: > Yup, I know it's been asked for here time and again, but I'm going to try > and keep it in folks minds ;) > > Would anyone have the DEC boot rom for the M9312 that boots off TMSCP TK50 > & TU81 (MU)? Please check your M9312 boards and your PDP-11/44 boot roms > for rom "E39A9" or part number "23-E39A9". > > If you have it, I (and a few others) would love if I could borrow it to > make an image. Speaking in general terms, I'd love to see PROM images available for all kinds of machines/periphery... I wrote a little helper for ROM extraction through serial console. Slow, but works :-> jbglaw at d2:~/vax-linux/usr/firmware_dumper$ ls -l rom-* -rw-r----- 1 jbglaw jbglaw 131072 2005-04-21 20:44 rom-DWCTX-BX-0x36000000-128kb-2 -rw-r--r-- 1 jbglaw jbglaw 262144 2004-10-07 13:49 rom-ka42-0x20040000-256kb-3 -rw-r--r-- 1 jbglaw jbglaw 65536 2004-10-07 15:21 rom-ka42-graphic-0x20140000-64kb-1 -rw-r----- 1 jbglaw jbglaw 262144 2005-04-21 20:39 rom-ka43-0x20040000-256kb-3 -rw-r----- 1 jbglaw jbglaw 131072 2005-04-21 20:41 rom-ka43-spx-0x20140000-128kb-2 -rw-r--r-- 1 jbglaw jbglaw 262144 2004-10-07 13:14 rom-ka46-0x20040000-256kb-3 -rw-r--r-- 1 jbglaw jbglaw 65536 2004-10-07 15:23 rom-ka46-lcg-0x20140000-64kb-1 -rw-r----- 1 jbglaw jbglaw 524288 2004-10-05 22:27 rom-ka49-0x20040000-512kb-3 -rw-r--r-- 1 jbglaw jbglaw 131072 2004-10-07 22:24 rom-ka49-lcspx-0x20140000-128kb-2 -rw-r----- 1 jbglaw jbglaw 524288 2004-10-06 16:41 rom-ka49-new-0x20040000-512kb-3 -rw-r--r-- 1 jbglaw jbglaw 131072 2004-10-06 21:24 rom-ka49-new-lcspx-0x20140000-128kb-2 -rw-r----- 1 jbglaw jbglaw 65207 2005-08-07 00:06 rom-ka52-0x20040000-512kb-3 -rw-r----- 1 jbglaw jbglaw 131072 2005-11-09 01:46 rom-ka650-0x20040000-128kb-3 -rw-r----- 1 jbglaw jbglaw 32768 2005-02-28 16:21 rom-PMAZ-AA-via-DWCTX-BX-0x300C0000-32kb-1 -rw------- 1 jbglaw jbglaw 131072 2005-05-21 19:07 rom-SPXG-0x2a100000-128kb-1 -rw-r--r-- 1 jbglaw jbglaw 262144 2005-04-24 21:02 rom-vax6000-0x20040000-256kb-3 -rw-r--r-- 1 jbglaw jbglaw 262144 2004-10-06 18:41 rom-vxt2000+-0x20040000-256kb-3 -rw-r----- 1 jbglaw jbglaw 131072 2004-10-06 23:46 rom-vxt2000+-spx-0x20140000-128kb-2 All these images load find into disass and tools like that, so it's not "pure" ROM images, but these could probably be easily created from my dumps. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Don't believe in miracles: Rely on them! the second : From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Oct 23 13:31:43 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 19:31:43 +0100 Subject: LCD TV's with Home computers In-Reply-To: <200610231258.53413.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <873fa278d63bc0cf7908fbbc3d366d62@mac.com> <200610231258.53413.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <453D0A8F.6080008@gjcp.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> RGB video, like the kind used on the Apple //gs and the Commodore >> 128, is another issue entirely. You're not going to get it working >> on any TV without some work (I know the C128's RGB port would be >> particularly nasty). You're not going to get rid of the dedicated >> monitors for these machines. I keep a CBM 1084S monitor around just >> for this purpose. > > At least on the 128 you could get monochrome video out of that connector. Why not? Seems like RGB is the second simplest baseband video connection you can make to a modern TV. I even have a VGA-to-RGB cable that I made where the clever bit is a transistor and two resistors to combine the sync, and a "strange" modeline that the ATi chipset in my PC understands. Gordon. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Oct 23 15:21:56 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 13:21:56 -0700 Subject: DEC boot rom image sought In-Reply-To: <453D18C8.3030004@mdrconsult.com> References: <007301c6f6d8$70c0cc10$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453D18C8.3030004@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <453D2464.3050601@mindspring.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Jay West wrote: >> Yup, I know it's been asked for here time and again, but I'm going to >> try and keep it in folks minds ;) >> >> Would anyone have the DEC boot rom for the M9312 that boots off TMSCP >> TK50 & TU81 (MU)? Please check your M9312 boards and your PDP-11/44 >> boot roms for rom "E39A9" or part number "23-E39A9". > > Uhhhh. > > I'm pretty sure one of my /44s booted a TU80 in its previous life > and I know one of them booted SDI. Would either of those do ya? > > The TMSCP boot device code is 'MU', the prom DEC part number is 23-E39A9. I believe a TU80 is a TS11 device code 'MS' CSR architecture, different boot PROM (we already have this one in the archive). If it booted a TU81 however that is a TMSCP device. TK50 DLT drive is an TMSCP interface also. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 23 15:38:30 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:38:30 +1300 Subject: DEC boot rom image sought In-Reply-To: <453D2464.3050601@mindspring.com> References: <007301c6f6d8$70c0cc10$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453D18C8.3030004@mdrconsult.com> <453D2464.3050601@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On 10/24/06, Don North wrote: > I believe a TU80 is a TS11 device code 'MS' CSR architecture, different > boot PROM (we already have this one in the archive). Yes. I have real MS boot ROM at home (and have installed 2.9BSD using it). > If it booted a TU81 however that is a TMSCP device. TK50 DLT drive is an > TMSCP interface also. Yep. Don't think I have one of those unless it's in my 11/44 that I've never gotten around to powering up. I won't be able to check it for months, so if someone else has it, please step forward. I can let you know in January or February if nothing turns up before then. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 23 15:39:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 13:39:28 -0700 Subject: Stack machines ARE fast! (was Re: Stack Machines) In-Reply-To: <453CFD44.7020201@arachelian.com> References: <453A481C.239.131CB9B1@cclist.sydex.com>, <453C8A22.27514.1BEE9DFC@cclist.sydex.com>, <453CFD44.7020201@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <453CC610.11065.1CD8B4DB@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Oct 2006 at 13:35, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Nice try! I suppose this kind of cut and run tactic must work on some > folks. ;-) An ad hominem attack? Shame! Well, it's been fun, but I'm getting tired of this. Let's cut to the chase: >The assertion here is only that a that a well designed stack machine >will outperform a well designed non-stack machine with similar other >features in one specific area: function calls. Period. Define "well designed"; define "similar". I'm not at all convinced. But, what defines "performance"? How about "work performed in a given period of time"? Could we agree that two machines with roughly the same gate count applied in the same way and speed and clock rate are "similar"? But I doubt that two such examples even exist. So to "outperform" would be one such machine producing more useful results per unit time than another, no? Where does the function call fit into this picture of getting results? Answer: it doesn't. By and large it's a bit of semantic fluff--an attempt to re-use code that otherwise might be inlined. Unnecessary in the grand scheme of things--and a hindrance to performance and code optimization. While a stack architecture *might* be better than others in the area of function calls, I'm not at all convinced that it is. The comparison just has too many subjective aspects. Almost any instruction is a bit of fluff in the grand view--as long as you have at least one to execute. I've certainly used machines without stacks or CALL instructions and never really missed them for felt that they would make a substantial contribution to performance. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 23 16:13:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 14:13:08 -0700 Subject: Housecleaning - Cipher 525 NIB Message-ID: <453CCDF4.16710.1CF7853B@cclist.sydex.com> I've got a Cipher 525 full-height 5.25" QIC floppy tape drive-- writes DC600A tapes. New, in original bag and box. Free to anyone for the cost of postage. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 23 16:05:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 14:05:09 -0700 Subject: Housecleaning - "Monitor misers" Message-ID: <453CCC15.280.1CF03714@cclist.sydex.com> I've got 4 or 5 of these little boxes for 120v operation that hook in series with a PC keyboard cable (5 pin DIN) and the mains supply for the monitor (3 prong line cord; female IEC cord). They've got a 4- position DIP switch on the back to vary the time between 10 and 40 mintues. The idea is that if the DIPswitch selected time goes by without any keyboard inactivity will turn the monitor mains supply off. Some are the "Monitor Miser" brand; others are the IBM Options "Display Miser" brand--they're identical internally. Free to anyone who wants the lot and pays postage. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 23 16:20:01 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 14:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Housecleaning - Cipher 525 NIB In-Reply-To: <453CCDF4.16710.1CF7853B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061023212001.56352.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> I don't have paypal. If you can wait for a check, then it's a go. This thing doesn't weigh 40 lbs or anything close, right? --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got a Cipher 525 full-height 5.25" QIC floppy > tape drive-- > writes DC600A tapes. New, in original bag and box. > > Free to anyone for the cost of postage. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 23 16:32:50 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 22:32:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: LCD TV's with Home computers In-Reply-To: from "Chris Sullivan" at Oct 22, 6 09:11:27 pm Message-ID: > > > On Oct 22, 2006, at 4:39 AM, roger pugh wrote: > > > Does anyone have any experience running home computers, Commodores, > > Sinclair's, Apple II's and the like on one of these modern LCD > > TV's. Can they lock on to the cheap modulator signals or work with > > the composite or RGB. > > I'm thinking of getting rid of a bulky tv set and various rgb and > > black and white monitors and use a modern solution. > > For the most part, if you purchase a TV that has a "composite" video > input (you can identify this by the one [yellow] plug for video and > the two plugs [white and red] for audio), you should have no problem I would be very suprised if any large-ish LCD TV sold in the UK didn't have at least one SCART socket (in fact I read somewhere that a SCART socket was a legal requirement on all TVs >14" diagonal, but I am not sure I believe that!). The SCART socekt is a 21 pin connector that caries composite video in and out, stereo audio in and out, RGB in (sometimes also S-video, separate Y and C, using 2 of thse pins), etc. You can easily get plugs and cables to fit it (in my experience, the ones from the local 'pound shop', when they have them in stock, are no better or worse than the ones from electronics shops at 5 times the price!) > using a composite video cable from a Commodore 64.. that is, a cable > that plugs in to the multi-pin DIN connector (if I remember right, IMHO, if you're going to mess around with classic computers you pretty much have to be able ot make up cables. > the 64 used an 8-pin connector that was similar to the VIC-20 and > Atari 800 5-pin connector, with extra signals [if memory serves, some > kind of pre-SVideo Y/C kind of thing that only Commodore's monitors > supported]). Has anyoe tried feeding Commodore's Y and C into an Svideo socket? if it doesn't work, why not? -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 23 17:18:19 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Housecleaning - "Monitor misers" In-Reply-To: <453CCC15.280.1CF03714@cclist.sydex.com> References: <453CCC15.280.1CF03714@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Oct 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got 4 or 5 of these little boxes for 120v operation that hook in > series with a PC keyboard cable (5 pin DIN) and the mains supply for > the monitor (3 prong line cord; female IEC cord). They've got a 4- > position DIP switch on the back to vary the time between 10 and 40 > mintues. The idea is that if the DIPswitch selected time goes by > without any keyboard inactivity will turn the monitor mains supply > off. Some are the "Monitor Miser" brand; others are the IBM Options > "Display Miser" brand--they're identical internally. > > Free to anyone who wants the lot and pays postage. And if for some reason someone wants more than 4-5 of them, I have 4-5 of them myself available for postage. I live in zipcode 93306 in USA. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 23 18:09:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 16:09:13 -0700 Subject: Houseclening - 3.5" drive trays Message-ID: <453CE929.19176.1D61CA3F@cclist.sydex.com> I've got about 15 of these to dump or give away. These are the gizmos that fit in a 5.25" HH drive opening and hold a removable tray with a 3.5" hard drive in it. Mostly IDE, a couple are SCSI-I and a few have built-in-fans. Some are still NIB. These do not work with the UDMA4 80-conductor cables (well, they do, just not in UDMA mode). The lot is yours for the shipping cost. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Oct 23 19:26:18 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 17:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8-inch substitutes Message-ID: So, back to my 8-inch drive problem... Would a Shugart 851 be an acceptable substitute for a Qume 842? The client tells me that any of the following will work in his Fairlight CMI synthesizer: Qume 242 YE Data YD174 YE Data YD180 Mitsubishi M2896-63 I'm not clear where he got this list. I'm looking at the manual for the Qume and it claims that it's an electrical and mechanical match for the Shugart 850. Is this a close enough match? Also, the client is in the zipcode 53153. Is there someone near there who I can coax into taking a look? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Oct 23 19:27:54 2006 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 20:27:54 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a datasheet for a Datel MX-1606? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <453D5E0A.3030601@splab.cas.neu.edu> Hi Ethan, Datel Systems, Inc, Engineering Product Handbook, 1977 has 4 pages on the MX-808, MX-1606, MXD-409 and MXD-807. pictures, mechanical dimensions, specifications connections and application (pinouts) and performance. Should I run the copies down to you? You pay the gas... Joe Heck Ethan Dicks wrote: >> From my googling, I can see that this is a 16-channel CMOS > > multiplexer. I have 3 here, harvested from a university-built bit of > laboratory hardware and I'm wondering if I can put them to use in > something. What I lack is a pinout or any detailed specs. > > Anyone have any in-depth info on the MX-1606? > > Thanks, > > -ethan > From ray at arachelian.com Mon Oct 23 19:52:59 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 20:52:59 -0400 Subject: Stack machines ARE fast! (was Re: Stack Machines) In-Reply-To: <453CC610.11065.1CD8B4DB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <453A481C.239.131CB9B1@cclist.sydex.com>, <453C8A22.27514.1BEE9DFC@cclist.sydex.com>, <453CFD44.7020201@arachelian.com> <453CC610.11065.1CD8B4DB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <453D63EB.3030204@arachelian.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Define "well designed"; define "similar". I'm not at all convinced. > "Well that depends on your definition of 'is' " :-) Dude! seriously! > But, what defines "performance"? How about "work performed in a > given period of time"? Could we agree that two machines with roughly > the same gate count applied in the same way and speed and clock rate > are "similar"? But I doubt that two such examples even exist. > And how does Sun compare itself to IBM, and Intel compare itself to PowerPC, and so on? Why benchmarks of course. Is one supercomputer faster than another? Does it outperform another? Everyone other than yourself would say, yes, there is a way to compare two different machines, even if they don't have the same gate count, even if they don't have the same clock speed. To have fair benchmarks, you want the systems as close as possible, but what you're asking of me in order to prove to you that stack machines are useful is you is just inches beyond the insane. Note that I'm not calling you insane, rather I'm pointing out that your debating technique is underhanded and unfair. No matter what I throw your way, you'll find some reason to be unconvinced. > So to "outperform" would be one such machine producing more useful > results per unit time than another, no? > Let me play your game by your rules then: Define "useful." No, wait, don't bother. I'm sure you'll come up with some new moveable benchmark that no one will be able to meet to your satisfaction. Even if I were to build you two supercomputers, both with nearly identical in every way except for the register file vs stack machine difference that we're howling at the moon over, you'd find some way to be unconvinced. > Where does the function call fit into this picture of getting > results? Answer: it doesn't. By and large it's a bit of semantic > fluff--an attempt to re-use code that otherwise might be inlined. > Unnecessary in the grand scheme of things--and a hindrance to > performance and code optimization. > Reality calling: it fits. You've no idea how many CPU cycles are wasted on function calls. Not actual work being done, but just waiting around to shove data on to the stack and then shoveling back and forth and back and forth between calls. If you actually do care about whether this matters or not, take a real program, run it under a debugger with tracing turned all the way into the OS itself and back to the program on and see just how expensive function calls really are even for simple things such as outputting a character out on a serial port because of all the layers between your application. The libraries, the kernel calls, the drivers, and finally the actual hardware. To take your statements to their logical conclusions, you'd have to live in a world where libraries, function calls, classes, methods, and objects and even operating systems do not exist, and code would be gigantic blobs of spaghetti code on machines with infinite enough RAM to inline everything. That's not how things are done. Even on supercomputers. Clue: every function call, every method call, every context switch between one thread and another, or between one process and another, between userland and kernel code, every one of those guys requires state to be stored onto the stack. That's where a stack machine accelerates those calls. In the real world compilers have to optimize code. In the real world not every function can or should be inlined. In the real world function calls are not free. In the real world stacks are not infinite and access to memory is much slower than access to L1 or L2 cache. In the real world programmers call libraries, they do not reinvent the wheel. In the real world libraries call the kernel, and the kernel calls the drivers. To ignore that would be like measuring a straight line on a map and saying The Distance from NYC to Boston is 150 miles, ignoring that you cannot possibly get there in a straight line even if you were to fly there. > While a stack architecture *might* be better than others in the area > of function calls, I'm not at all convinced that it is. The > comparison just has too many subjective aspects. > Yeah, sure, right, and for vector math a vector unit"*might*" be better, and for floating point intensive code, an FPU "*might*" be better according to you. Uh huh. Ask yourself this, if call operations are unimportant semantic "fluff", since according to you, they're not important to the results, why bother with inlining code? After all, it must be that function calls are useless, right? so they must be free, right? In that case, why should a compiler inline code? Maybe, because doing so speeds things up? But why? Is it because function calls (and passing of parameters) are expensive? If so, why? Is it because of shoving all the operands to the THE STACK and then reading them back off? Why would Sun waste all that silicon on implementing register windows if they don't do anything useful, if they didn't speed up something? Maybe, just maybe, it is because function calls really ARE expensive! I agree with you that they don't do any real useful work in the sense of benchmarks. I disagree with you that they aren't useful or that they're fluff. Since you're not convinced, why wouldn't a stack machine be faster at function calls? I, and Sun, and AT&T, and designers of past stack machines would all say that since function calls are expensive, finding a way to deal with them would be a good thing. Would register windows speed up function calls? Sun seems to think so! Would a stack architecture speed up function calls? AT&T thought so, as did many others! So far only you don't. > Almost any instruction is a bit of fluff in the grand view--as long > as you have at least one to execute. I've certainly used machines > without stacks or CALL instructions and never really missed them for > felt that they would make a substantial contribution to performance. > Right, one instruction here, one instruction there, it doesn't matter. One bunch of memory accesses here, another there, no matter. One software floating point math call here, and one there, who needs an FPU? :-) You personally might have not missed stacks on machines lacking them, but what exactly did a C, C++, Pascal, Modula, or Java compiler have to do in order to work on such machines? Did it have to emulate stacks? Did it have to emulate CALL instructions? Were the opcodes emitted in order to emulate all of those operations a lot more expensive than a simple call would have been? Was the code a lot larger because it had to build all that stuff where a simple call would have sufficed? I think we both know the answers to those questions. But of course, none of that matters to you, because you'll just refuse to be convinced. Anything not to agree with me, right? :-) Reminds me of the "invincible" knight in Monty Python's Quest for the Holy Grail. Once armless and legless, he still insisted "Tis but a scratch!" I'm sorry, I must apologize. I tried. I tried to resist replying, but it was too much fun pushing your buttons and watching you come up with more unrealistic constructions! This was just too delicious! :-D From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Oct 23 22:56:31 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 22:56:31 -0500 Subject: COI Linc Tape II Message-ID: <000501c6f720$6b2ad0a0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I can't seem to find any docs on this unit and it's unibus controller. Anyone have docs I could copy or better yet, electronic format? Thanks! Jay From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Oct 23 23:11:35 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:11:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: COI Linc Tape II In-Reply-To: <000501c6f720$6b2ad0a0$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20061024041135.5385.qmail@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jay West wrote: > I can't seem to find any docs on this unit and it's > unibus controller. > Anyone have docs I could copy or better yet, > electronic format? I have one of these as well, with no documentation, and would be interested in anything that turns up. --Bill From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Oct 23 23:42:27 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 00:42:27 -0400 Subject: TD Systems Viking QBUS SCSI adapter info? Message-ID: <200610240042.27755.pat@computer-refuge.org> I've got a TD Systems Viking "VIK/QDA" QBUS SCSI controller, which I'm trying to use. Does anyone have documentation for this thing? It's properly configured to be at the primary (disk) MSCP controller address, and looks OK from the QBUS side, but I can't talk to any SCSI disks that I connect to it. This is what "show qbus" gives me on my VAX 4000/300: >>>show qbus Scan of Qbus I/O Space -20001468 (772150) = B440 RQDX3/KDA50/RRD50/RQC25/KFQSA-DISK -2000146A (772152) = 0B40 -20001600 (773000) = 0A0F -20001602 (773002) = 01FF -20001920 (774440) = FF08 DELQA/DEQNA/DESQA -20001922 (774442) = FF00 -20001924 (774444) = FF2B -20001926 (774446) = FF32 -20001928 (774450) = FFA6 -2000192A (774452) = FF9E -2000192C (774454) = 8400 -2000192E (774456) = 1030 -20001F40 (777500) = 0020 IPCR And, this is what "show uqssp" gives me: >>>show uqssp UQSSP Disk Controller 0 (772150) -DUA0 (@0) -DUA1 (@0) -DUA2 (@0) -DUA3 (@0) -DUA4 (@0) -DUA5 (@0) -DUA6 (@0) So, it's there, and responding to the CPU (and yes, it's the only MSCP device in the system, so it's not conflicting with anything else). I've tried setting the SCSI drive to several different SCSI IDs, and I've used drives from 540MB to 6GB in size, with no luck. When I try a "show uqssp" or a "boot dua0", the controller blinks its red LED, but the activity light on the drive doesn't light up at all (the SCSI ID on the drive was set to "0" when I tried booting from it). Any ideas? Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Oct 23 15:30:09 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2006 21:30:09 +0100 Subject: On the subject of boot ROMs... Message-ID: <453D2651.50400@gjcp.net> ... does anyone else have a Baydel STBC multifunction card that they could read the ROMs off for me? I contacted Baydel, but sadly they'd just pitched the last of their QBus stuff prior to a move a few months ago :-/ Gordon. From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Oct 24 05:58:40 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:58:40 +0200 Subject: Odd 8-bit ISA CD-ROM interface? In-Reply-To: <4537A70D.4020803@oldskool.org> References: <20061019102906.0b45e38f@SirToby.dinner41.de> <4537A70D.4020803@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1161687520.8057.104.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-10-19 at 11:25 -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: > Jochen Kunz wrote: > > Linux supported way more of those funky, proprietary IDE like CDROMs. > > But most likely this junk was removed from (semi) recent kernels. > > Removed from the SOURCE tree, or from most compiled distros? Neither. On the generic Ubuntu Dapper kernel: toresbe at fortran:/lib/modules/2.6.15-26-386/kernel/drivers/cdrom$ ls aztcd.ko cdu31a.ko gscd.ko mcdx.ko sbpcd.ko sonycd535.ko cdrom.ko cm206.ko isp16.ko optcd.ko sjcd.ko Same sets are there on the default x86 Debian Sarge kernels, but understandably not on sparc64. Tore From dj.taylor at starpower.net Tue Oct 24 06:14:01 2006 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 07:14:01 -0400 Subject: TD Systems Viking QBUS SCSI adapter info? In-Reply-To: <200610240042.27755.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200610240042.27755.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20061024071117.01c50508@pop.starpower.net> At 12:42 AM 10/24/2006, you wrote: >I've got a TD Systems Viking "VIK/QDA" QBUS SCSI controller, which I'm >trying to use. Does anyone have documentation for this thing? It's >properly configured to be at the primary (disk) MSCP controller address, >and looks OK from the QBUS side, but I can't talk to any SCSI disks that >I connect to it. > >This is what "show qbus" gives me on my VAX 4000/300: > >>>show qbus >Scan of Qbus I/O Space >-20001468 (772150) = B440 RQDX3/KDA50/RRD50/RQC25/KFQSA-DISK >-2000146A (772152) = 0B40 >-20001600 (773000) = 0A0F >-20001602 (773002) = 01FF >-20001920 (774440) = FF08 DELQA/DEQNA/DESQA >-20001922 (774442) = FF00 >-20001924 (774444) = FF2B >-20001926 (774446) = FF32 >-20001928 (774450) = FFA6 >-2000192A (774452) = FF9E >-2000192C (774454) = 8400 >-2000192E (774456) = 1030 >-20001F40 (777500) = 0020 IPCR > >And, this is what "show uqssp" gives me: > >>>show uqssp >UQSSP Disk Controller 0 (772150) >-DUA0 (@0) >-DUA1 (@0) >-DUA2 (@0) >-DUA3 (@0) >-DUA4 (@0) >-DUA5 (@0) >-DUA6 (@0) > >So, it's there, and responding to the CPU (and yes, it's the only MSCP >device in the system, so it's not conflicting with anything else). > >I've tried setting the SCSI drive to several different SCSI IDs, and I've >used drives from 540MB to 6GB in size, with no luck. When I try a "show >uqssp" or a "boot dua0", the controller blinks its red LED, but the >activity light on the drive doesn't light up at all (the SCSI ID on the >drive was set to "0" when I tried booting from it). > >Any ideas? > >Pat >-- >Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ >The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org Well, I know its not you. I tried using a Viking controller in a BA215 backplane with a 11/53 and it didn't work, although other controllers would work ( UC07, DQ696 ). I thought it might be the termination on the qbus in the 215, but never found out. Doug Taylor From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Oct 24 07:56:01 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 14:56:01 +0200 Subject: PeeCee clones; was:PCW's 25 worst tech products In-Reply-To: <200606272158240972.1C81C07D@10.0.0.252> References: <20060627002516.2927.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <200606261938480432.16DB98B5@10.0.0.252> <44A1C945.7040304@oldskool.org> <200606271727100452.1B8969DF@10.0.0.252> <20060627193409.P20463@shell.lmi.net> <44A1F937.9050103@jcwren.com> <200606272158240972.1C81C07D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <1161694561.8057.114.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-06-27 at 21:58 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6/27/2006 at 11:36 PM J.C. Wren wrote: > >Everyone seems to think every damn card, bus, and system made should > >be backwards to the AND gate. Get over it, move in to the 90's. At the > >very least. > I suspect there's not much life left in the "open up the box and swap a > card" idea, at least as far as personal computers go. Increasingly, I'm > seeing people who have NEVER been inside their systems to add or upgrade a > card. Numbers of expansion slots are decreasing (the system I'm writing > this on has a grand total of 3 PCI slots). Actually, this hasn't changed much at all, really. I think the fact that we're getting fewer bus slots on computers is caused by things that were usually done on the PCI bus now being on the motherboard (NICs, countless USB ports, sound cards, in some cases VGA..), thus freeing up slots that were usually used for the same things, and also partially that we're moving to smaller form factor motherboards. Newbies will always be scared of opening up the machines, especially as long as we have stupid and clumsy chassis designs like the current generic ATX convention. Tore From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Oct 24 10:57:41 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 10:57:41 -0500 Subject: Odd 8-bit ISA CD-ROM interface? In-Reply-To: <1161687520.8057.104.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20061019102906.0b45e38f@SirToby.dinner41.de> <4537A70D.4020803@oldskool.org> <1161687520.8057.104.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <453E37F5.1040208@oldskool.org> Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: >>> Linux supported way more of those funky, proprietary IDE like CDROMs. >>> But most likely this junk was removed from (semi) recent kernels. >> Removed from the SOURCE tree, or from most compiled distros? > > Neither. On the generic Ubuntu Dapper kernel: > toresbe at fortran:/lib/modules/2.6.15-26-386/kernel/drivers/cdrom$ ls > aztcd.ko cdu31a.ko gscd.ko mcdx.ko sbpcd.ko sonycd535.ko > cdrom.ko cm206.ko isp16.ko optcd.ko sjcd.ko > > Same sets are there on the default x86 Debian Sarge kernels, but > understandably not on sparc64. Excellent. This means that, memory and cpu target permitting, I can use recent distros on older hardware. I know that Redhat switched over to Pentium-and-higher only CPU targets a while ago; do any of the major pre-compiled distros (Fedora Core, Ubuntu, Debian, etc.) still support 386? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 24 11:09:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 09:09:55 -0700 Subject: PeeCee clones; was:PCW's 25 worst tech products In-Reply-To: <1161694561.8057.114.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060627002516.2927.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com>, <200606272158240972.1C81C07D@10.0.0.252>, <1161694561.8057.114.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <453DD863.30210.210847CA@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Oct 2006 at 14:56, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > Actually, this hasn't changed much at all, really. I think the fact that > we're getting fewer bus slots on computers is caused by things that were > usually done on the PCI bus now being on the motherboard (NICs, > countless USB ports, sound cards, in some cases VGA..), thus freeing up > slots that were usually used for the same things, and also partially > that we're moving to smaller form factor motherboards. Yes--I think that's the big thing--a large range of items now can be plugged into USB ports. It's not as neat, of course, having little USB doodads and boxes scattered over your desktop as having everything in the box, but it's infinitely less threatening to the average PeeCee user than opening up a box and seeing all that naked electronics stuff. :) I was reminded of the "open up your box" question the other day when I was installing Vista RC1 on an older (but not vintage) box and the Upgrade Advisor gave the warning "Yes, you can install Vista, but you won't get the complete experience because your graphics card isn't one that has a great GPU on it." message. Folks may not take to opeining the box as well as they have in years past simply to upgrade(?) the OS. Cheers, Chuck From josefcub at gmail.com Tue Oct 24 11:47:00 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 11:47:00 -0500 Subject: Odd 8-bit ISA CD-ROM interface? In-Reply-To: <453E37F5.1040208@oldskool.org> References: <20061019102906.0b45e38f@SirToby.dinner41.de> <4537A70D.4020803@oldskool.org> <1161687520.8057.104.camel@localhost.localdomain> <453E37F5.1040208@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <9e2403920610240947m72f9b501lec590301c074675c@mail.gmail.com> Jim, On 10/24/06, Jim Leonard wrote: > I know that Redhat switched over to Pentium-and-higher only CPU targets > a while ago; do any of the major pre-compiled distros (Fedora Core, > Ubuntu, Debian, etc.) still support 386? I know that Ubuntu (Dapper) at least still compiles for a 386 target by default. The problem being that there isn't enough RAM that you can cram onto an "average" 386 board that'll support it. When it comes to 386s and 486s (and some low Pentiums), I always stick with earlier versions of the distributions I run (Slackware, mainly) so that I have RAM left over to be useful. To make it on-topic: My Network General Sniffer (Compaq Portable/386 with 6MB of RAM, math coprocessor, and backpack with a modem and network card) runs a hybridized 3.0-to-4.0 Slackware Linux, cramming in the kernel, base tools, networking tools and clients, C compiler, Basic interpreter, my favorite text editor and some other tools in 30MB of the 40MB Connor drive it came with. That leaves me 5MB for swap, and 5MB user space. Plenty of room for fun! ;) Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Oct 24 14:29:30 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 15:29:30 -0400 Subject: Odd 8-bit ISA CD-ROM interface? In-Reply-To: <453E37F5.1040208@oldskool.org> References: <20061019102906.0b45e38f@SirToby.dinner41.de> <4537A70D.4020803@oldskool.org> <1161687520.8057.104.camel@localhost.localdomain> <453E37F5.1040208@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <453E699A.2090207@mdrconsult.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Excellent. This means that, memory and cpu target permitting, I can use > recent distros on older hardware. > > I know that Redhat switched over to Pentium-and-higher only CPU targets > a while ago; do any of the major pre-compiled distros (Fedora Core, > Ubuntu, Debian, etc.) still support 386? I think Slackware does and I know Debian does out of the box. Even a late-gen kernel can be built to run in small memory, but you'll probably want an older distribution anyway, in order to get a userland lightweight enough to run in < 8MB of memory. Unless you need something unique to Linux, I'd suggest NetBSD or OpenBSD for small-memory systems. Doc From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Oct 24 01:20:23 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 07:20:23 +0100 Subject: LCD TV's with Home computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <453DB0A7.8040001@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Has anyoe tried feeding Commodore's Y and C into an Svideo socket? if it > doesn't work, why not? I have read that it does. If it's legal Y/C then I don't see why it wouldn't. I don't have a Commodore to test it, though. Gordon. From bear at typewritten.org Tue Oct 24 15:12:59 2006 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:12:59 -0700 Subject: LCD TV's with Home computers In-Reply-To: <453DB0A7.8040001@gjcp.net> References: <453DB0A7.8040001@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <622954B8-B160-4A0D-94DD-455FCE879F30@typewritten.org> On Oct 23, 2006, at 11:20 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Has anyoe tried feeding Commodore's Y and C into an Svideo socket? >> if it doesn't work, why not? > > I have read that it does. If it's legal Y/C then I don't see why > it wouldn't. I don't have a Commodore to test it, though. It is legal Y/C, and it does work, at least on my five-year-old Wega XBR. I have also used (am using at this minute) a Commodore 2002 as a studio monitor with Y/C, on all manner of "normal" equipment including Hi8, SVHS, Laserdisc, and DVD. ok bear From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 24 15:46:47 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:46:47 +1300 Subject: Anyone have a datasheet for a Datel MX-1606? In-Reply-To: <453D5E0A.3030601@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <453D5E0A.3030601@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: On 10/24/06, joe heck wrote: > Hi Ethan, > Datel Systems, Inc, Engineering Product Handbook, 1977 has 4 pages on > the MX-808, MX-1606, MXD-409 and MXD-807. pictures, mechanical > dimensions, specifications connections and application (pinouts) and > performance. That sounds like just the thing. > Should I run the copies down to you? You pay the gas... Umm... I'm not sure I understand your colloquialism there... If you mean, should you photocopy the pages and mail them, that's a bit tough at the moment - I'm at the South Pole and it's still Winter. We haven't had a cargo flight since mid-February. (fearful of touching off another scanner thread) do you have a scanner? -ethan From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Tue Oct 24 16:11:27 2006 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 17:11:27 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a datasheet for a Datel MX-1606? In-Reply-To: References: <453D5E0A.3030601@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <453E817F.4010107@splab.cas.neu.edu> Oh, I thought you would let me deliver them in person... Yes, I have a scanner right here, I'll scan them and email them to you in the next couple of days. Joe Heck Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/24/06, joe heck wrote: > >> Hi Ethan, >> Datel Systems, Inc, Engineering Product Handbook, 1977 has 4 >> pages on >> the MX-808, MX-1606, MXD-409 and MXD-807. pictures, mechanical >> dimensions, specifications connections and application (pinouts) and >> performance. > > > That sounds like just the thing. > >> Should I run the copies down to you? You pay the gas... > > > Umm... I'm not sure I understand your colloquialism there... > > If you mean, should you photocopy the pages and mail them, that's a > bit tough at the moment - I'm at the South Pole and it's still Winter. > We haven't had a cargo flight since mid-February. > > (fearful of touching off another scanner thread) do you have a scanner? > > -ethan > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 24 16:18:47 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 10:18:47 +1300 Subject: Anyone have a datasheet for a Datel MX-1606? In-Reply-To: <453E817F.4010107@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <453D5E0A.3030601@splab.cas.neu.edu> <453E817F.4010107@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: On 10/25/06, joe heck wrote: > Oh, I thought you would let me deliver them in person... Heh... ok... wasn't sure if you were being funny or not. There being no land bridge, you'd need a decent sized plane to get here (we had this upgraded DC-3 pass through a few days ago, but it didn't drop any thing off - http://www.southpolestation.com/news/basler1.jpg) > Yes, I have a scanner right here, I'll scan them and email them to you > in the next couple of days. Thanks much. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 24 16:20:55 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 17:20:55 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a datasheet for a Datel MX-1606? In-Reply-To: References: <453D5E0A.3030601@splab.cas.neu.edu> <453E817F.4010107@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <1017E227-EA1B-47C0-83D6-4841876576A8@neurotica.com> On Oct 24, 2006, at 5:18 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Oh, I thought you would let me deliver them in person... > > Heh... ok... wasn't sure if you were being funny or not. There being > no land bridge, you'd need a decent sized plane to get here (we had > this upgraded DC-3 pass through a few days ago, but it didn't drop any > thing off - http://www.southpolestation.com/news/basler1.jpg) Umm...A couch? And a portable living room? Out in the snow?? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 24 16:44:21 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 10:44:21 +1300 Subject: Anyone have a datasheet for a Datel MX-1606? In-Reply-To: <1017E227-EA1B-47C0-83D6-4841876576A8@neurotica.com> References: <453D5E0A.3030601@splab.cas.neu.edu> <453E817F.4010107@splab.cas.neu.edu> <1017E227-EA1B-47C0-83D6-4841876576A8@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 10/25/06, Dave McGuire wrote: > http://www.southpolestation.com/news/basler1.jpg > > Umm...A couch? And a portable living room? Out in the snow?? That "portable living room" is the Passenger Terminal (the sign is at a bit of an oblique angle). I can't explain the couch except to guess it's on its way from the main station out to the "Summer Camp" since we are about to open for Summer as soon as it gets above -55C. -ethan From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Oct 24 17:52:02 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:52:02 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a datasheet for a Datel MX-1606? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 Oct 2006 10:18:47 +1300." Message-ID: <200610242252.k9OMq2v5021934@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Ethan Dicks" wrote: ... >this upgraded DC-3 pass through a few days ago, but it didn't drop any >thing off - http://www.southpolestation.com/news/basler1.jpg) nice. I like the props - those don't look standard (I'm gonna guess those are pt-6's in which case that thing probably rockets off the runway) judging by the nicely planted flags in the background I'm guessing that aren't any runways lights :-) -brad From jim at covington.name Tue Oct 24 17:58:36 2006 From: jim at covington.name (Jim Covington) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 18:58:36 -0400 Subject: OT: south pole (was Anyone have a datasheet for a Datel MX-1606?) In-Reply-To: <200610242252.k9OMq2v5021934@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200610242252.k9OMq2v5021934@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <453E9A9C.4030105@covington.name> PT-6A - the most reliable engine in the world (so I've heard.) And they're Hartzell props. http://www.baslerturbo.com/bt_67_overview.html Brad Parker wrote: > "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > ... > >> this upgraded DC-3 pass through a few days ago, but it didn't drop any >> thing off - http://www.southpolestation.com/news/basler1.jpg) >> > > nice. I like the props - those don't look standard (I'm gonna guess > those are pt-6's in which case that thing probably rockets off the > runway) > > judging by the nicely planted flags in the background I'm guessing that > aren't any runways lights :-) > > -brad > > From safehaus at webhart.net Tue Oct 24 18:18:06 2006 From: safehaus at webhart.net (Greg Purvis) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:18:06 -0400 Subject: AMBRA Sprinta - I need four 4Mb Memory Chips In-Reply-To: <453B8789.8060800@brutman.com> References: <45396C8F.6030201@brutman.com><00ad01c6f4ab$04ee0310$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45399306.7070201@brutman.com><001501c6f522$a4fc7720$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453A3E31.8020207@brutman.com><002b01c6f530$82336740$6700a8c0@BILLING> <453AC0C4.30805@oldskool.org> <00e601c6f575$6a6d8920$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <453B8789.8060800@brutman.com> Message-ID: <453E9F2E.5070505@webhart.net> Hi. A Canadian company wants over $60 CDN for four sticks of 4Mb RAM for the AMBRA Sprinta (price includes shipping and tax). That's a good price, considering their warranty, and the age of the RAM. But that's too much money for me. Does anyone have four 4Mb RAM for the Sprinta that they'd be willing to sell and ship to near Ottawa, ON, for about half that price? Thanks GregP From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 24 19:42:56 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 17:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: just for fun: Strong Bad isn't a vintage computer collector Message-ID: <200610250042.k9P0guwB021572@floodgap.com> Strong Bad blows up his Apple-esque first computer and his "COMPY 386" that uses a Commodore typeface to preserve the 486 laptop that they took hostage. http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail159.html -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION! ------------------------------------ From evan at snarc.net Tue Oct 24 21:16:47 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:16:47 -0400 Subject: Still looking -- anyone want to split my VCF 9 room? In-Reply-To: <001601c6eca4$0cdd28d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <000501c6f7db$9faf92a0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> With just 10 days until VCF, I'll ask again .... I have a room at the VCF 9 hotel from Fri. 11/3 - Sun. 11/5 which I'd like to split with someone to save money ... anybody interested? Non-smokers only please. Please reply off-list to evan at snarc.net -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 3:41 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Room sharing -- RE: VCF 9 plans... I have a reservation at the show hotel (Marriott Residence Inn) for Fri./Sat./Sun. nights. It's $99 each night. I'd like to share it with someone to save money. Apparently there's a queen bed and a sofa bed, but I volunteer to take the sofa ... LOL saving $$ is that important to me. -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 5:55 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: VCF 9 plans... I know this is a bit early, but I'm arriving for VCF 9 on Thursday, Nov. 2 if anyone's looking to hang out in the evening. Cell is 646-546-9999. From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Oct 24 21:23:55 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 21:23:55 -0500 Subject: just for fun: Strong Bad isn't a vintage computer collector In-Reply-To: <200610250042.k9P0guwB021572@floodgap.com> References: <200610250042.k9P0guwB021572@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <453ECABB.1030702@oldskool.org> That is one of the dumbest things I've seen in a while... and yet I couldn't help laughing at the dot-matrix paper (took me by surprise) and the "automatic hole formatting" :-) Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Strong Bad blows up his Apple-esque first computer and his "COMPY 386" that > uses a Commodore typeface to preserve the 486 laptop that they took hostage. > > http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail159.html > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 24 21:29:19 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: just for fun: Strong Bad isn't a vintage computer collector In-Reply-To: <453ECABB.1030702@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Oct 24, 6 09:23:55 pm" Message-ID: <200610250229.k9P2TJYd019412@floodgap.com> > That is one of the dumbest things I've seen in a while... and yet I > couldn't help laughing at the dot-matrix paper (took me by surprise) and > the "automatic hole formatting" :-) I always liked the wheels turning as he types. It's dumb, but it's fun. :) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Remember, Windows is not a virus. Viruses actually do something. ----------- From feedle at feedle.net Tue Oct 24 21:35:56 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (Chris Sullivan) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:35:56 -0700 Subject: just for fun: Strong Bad isn't a vintage computer collector In-Reply-To: <453ECABB.1030702@oldskool.org> References: <200610250042.k9P0guwB021572@floodgap.com> <453ECABB.1030702@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6E33DEFC-4BEC-4B0E-A55A-CE47BEEAEE96@feedle.net> On Oct 24, 2006, at 7:23 PM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Strong Bad blows up his Apple-esque first computer and his "COMPY >> 386" that >> uses a Commodore typeface to preserve the 486 laptop that they >> took hostage. >> http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail159.html It should probably be pointed out that Strongbad's first computer (the one you call "Apple-esque) was supposedly a Tandy 200, at least according to the tags on the early pages. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Oct 24 21:40:41 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: just for fun: Strong Bad isn't a vintage computer collector In-Reply-To: <6E33DEFC-4BEC-4B0E-A55A-CE47BEEAEE96@feedle.net> from Chris Sullivan at "Oct 24, 6 07:35:56 pm" Message-ID: <200610250240.k9P2efq2011944@floodgap.com> > >> Strong Bad blows up his Apple-esque first computer and his "COMPY > >> 386" that > >> uses a Commodore typeface to preserve the 486 laptop that they > >> took hostage. > >> http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail159.html > > It should probably be pointed out that Strongbad's first computer > (the one you call "Apple-esque) was supposedly a Tandy 200, at least > according to the <title> tags on the early pages. True, although it has an Apple-like logo and form factor. The contrast buttons really work, btw. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The new Tourette Syndrome movie: Twitch and Shout! -- John Waters ---------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 24 21:47:45 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:47:45 -0400 Subject: Anyone have a datasheet for a Datel MX-1606? In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0610241444k20487f6dv7707a4e19da24934@mail.gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0610221308x58975348q14f0a8c091271daf@mail.gmail.com> <453D5E0A.3030601@splab.cas.neu.edu> <f4eb766f0610241346i75308b9bq557001e51a5009b0@mail.gmail.com> <453E817F.4010107@splab.cas.neu.edu> <f4eb766f0610241418o7a546078u20ee453c40df9ae6@mail.gmail.com> <1017E227-EA1B-47C0-83D6-4841876576A8@neurotica.com> <f4eb766f0610241444k20487f6dv7707a4e19da24934@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <453ED051.50602@neurotica.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/25/06, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: >> http://www.southpolestation.com/news/basler1.jpg >> >> Umm...A couch? And a portable living room? Out in the snow?? > > That "portable living room" is the Passenger Terminal (the sign is at > a bit of an oblique angle). I can't explain the couch except to guess > it's on its way from the main station out to the "Summer Camp" since > we are about to open for Summer as soon as it gets above -55C. I am green with envy, Ethan. Yes I'd freeze my butt off (hey I'm a Florida boy) but man it'd be worth it to see that place. What cool (non-work-related) hardware do you have down there? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From jpeterson at chinalake.com Tue Oct 24 23:34:01 2006 From: jpeterson at chinalake.com (J. M. Peterson) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 00:34:01 -0400 Subject: OT: Items looking for new home - DEC PCs, MV3100, BA350, misc SCSI drives and cables (MA, USA) Message-ID: <000101c6f7ee$cbdf6450$8c64c80a@prozac> OT: not actually classic systems but interesting and/or useful as DEC hardware I am working my way through storage. Several DEC PCs need a new home as well as an MV3100-80, several DEC SCSI drives and cables, etc. The PCs are not 'classic' but are part of the DEC story. All free with the caveat that you will not turn around and sell off the systems or memory--people with sharp pointy oscilloscope probes will visit you in the night if you do. I will, however, never turn away donations of cash or Guinness, to support body and soul. The units have been in climate managed storage for what that's worth. I am in metro-west Boston, MA and will deliver within a reasonable distance. I will also ship anything if you cover costs. Photos of systems avail at: http://chinalake.home.comcast.net/decstuff/index.html . Queries to whatpdp at chinalake com. Cheers, -jim ------------------------------ DEC PCs: No keyboards or external cables unless noted. If there is some special cable needed, I can dig around in the boxes. Digital PCP12 386/25 laptop (~1992/93?) Also seen w/ Panasonic label in RS stores Interesting note is the integrated mouse Have docs, power, spare battery, and util disk DEC Celebris Pentium 166/133 Slim case design w/ 16 bit ISA (AT) and PCI Removable cache card and processor power factor card Have the green/blue "Celebris" label - Removed when evaling and never got back on. Have docs and disks. DEC Workstation 200i2 Dual PPro/180 or 200 Could come configured either as intel or Alpha by swapping a good chunk of the system board. Not as neat a design as the 486/ST intel/Alpha. Friction latch for front is broken off--mostly a cosmetic issue. Docs and disks. Orig shipped with the two RZ28D scsis below, but now had IDE on built in controller. Collector has first dibs on the drives. Controller when I can locate it (apaptec 2940W). This system's last job was running some flavour of S/370 via Hercules on Linux. DEC DECpc 486 Workstation "Clam Shell" PCW10-A2 Slim design. Connected via a short SCSI cable to its SCSI storage unit. Together it had a clam-like appearance. Support for LK keyboard and had a large Appina video board DEC DECpc Storage box for the DECpc PCWXE-A2 Two HH 5.25 openings and one hidden (holding RZ24-LE) Have the connecting cable for this unit. The unit is generic SCSI, but I will only dispose of it with the PC. There is also a VAXMate if I can find it. In a month or two, two SOLs and Helios drives will be up on ebay. --------------------------- MV 3100-80 RAM: 72 megs Storage: Two RZ25 Ext SCSI (AMP 50 connector) w/ term DWS41 Usual three MMJ ports, etc. AUI-10-baseT adapter (not the term shown, I still need him) White DEC T + 2 50-ohm thinnet terms NON-DEC SCSI CR-ROM in external box if you want it ---------------------------- Misc: -New DEC 15 foot thinnet + 2 T and 4 terms (this is the white molded cable and connectors) -Grey 5' BNC RGB cable - maybe off the GIGIs and/or from BARCOs -DEC BC09J-03 MV 3100 SCSI cable - This the funky HD68 Female to AMP50 -DEC BCO6P-06 - six foot M-M AMP50 Right Angle SCSI -4-32 MEG (128 megs) SIMMS from an old Jensen box Alpha. 72-PIN 70NS Two are DEC and two are DATARAM -3-button workstation mouse VSXXX-GA (7-pin critter, rectalgular body, not the mickey version) -BA350 storage cab, with term, dual power supplies, two fans + spare, 4 covers--I have the rest someplace -TZ87 in cartridge for BA350 (will test) -Locating my box of internal SCSI CR-ROM drives-any takers when I do? -Gigatrend SL Turbo DAT (DDS1 me thinks) external scsi box --------------------------- 3.5 SCSI drives: (2) RZ28D (wide) (1) RZ28 (1) RZ28B Numerous of 50 pin SCSI ribbon cables 2,3,5 connectors Some Wide also ---------------------------EOF--------------------------- From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Oct 25 01:41:24 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 23:41:24 -0700 Subject: And now for something completely different ... PDP-8/S on eBay In-Reply-To: <200610100130.k9A1UPgM021907@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200610100130.k9A1UPgM021907@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <453F0714.9080402@mindspring.com> DEC Digital Equipment PDP-8/S with Power Supply ebay 120045663139 Lots of good pictures, appears to be in remarkably good physical condition. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 10:40:19 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 04:40:19 +1300 Subject: Classic hardware at the bottom of the world (was Re: Anyone have a datasheet for a Datel MX-1606?) Message-ID: <f4eb766f0610250840kfed335ewa096d33152ca7a4c@mail.gmail.com> On 10/25/06, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > I am green with envy, Ethan. Yes I'd freeze my butt off (hey I'm a > Florida boy) but man it'd be worth it to see that place. Our low is typically around -100F to -110F (the record is somewhere around -117F, IIRC) This time of year, -60F to -75F is common. > What cool (non-work-related) hardware do you have down there? I brought plenty of cool non-work-related hardware... my SBC-6120 w/FP-6120 and IOB-6120, a Spare Time GIzmos Embedded Elf w/disk interface, an Elf-2000 w/STG1861, a STG mp3 player, an RB5X robot (INS8073-based), an MC-1N microcontroller (also INS8073-based), several LCD and VFD displays for LCDproc (http://www.lcdproc.org), a "Real Console" 6809 board, a MicroElf, a couple of binary clocks, some Atmel microcontrollers, and a modernish (2002) 6502 SBC. I think that's most of the toys I brought to get through the night. I also have Amiga Forever, simh and klh10 for emulation of various boxes (I used to bring an Amiga down, but now it's just too large to justify). Plenty of toys here. Now I just have to pack them up and take them home. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 25 10:49:01 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 08:49:01 -0700 Subject: Kennedy 96xx series docs on line Message-ID: <C164D57D.8F9B%aek@bitsavers.org> I was able to obtain copies of most of the 96xx series manuals last Friday, so they are now on line on bitsavers.org/pdf/kennedy including the docs for the SCSI interfaces. They were a challenge to find.. Still looking for the schematics for the HP 88780 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Oct 25 12:38:02 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 18:38:02 +0100 Subject: Kennedy 96xx series docs on line In-Reply-To: <C164D57D.8F9B%aek@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <C1655F8A.4FB5%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 25/10/06 16:49, "Al Kossow" <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote: > > I was able to obtain copies of most of the 96xx series manuals last Friday, > so they are now on line on bitsavers.org/pdf/kennedy including the docs for > the SCSI interfaces. > > They were a challenge to find.. Nice one Al, thanks! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jrr at flippers.com Wed Oct 25 11:32:03 2006 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:32:03 -0700 Subject: WTB/WTT:Looking for Pro-Log 1702A module In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0610250840kfed335ewa096d33152ca7a4c@mail.gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0610250840kfed335ewa096d33152ca7a4c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <p06230935c16540b3d227@[192.168.0.101]> Hi, First posting and it's a request...sigh. Still I am looking for this module for my ancient Pro-Log burner so I can fix these old pinball computers (see - it's on topic!). I do have manuals for the burner and a spare triple supply 27126 module that I'd be happy to offer in trade (partial + small $$). There was some talk about these machines back in the spring, but: A) I didn't need it then, and B) I wasn't a member of the list... I have, coming, a 1702 reader that is made by Andromeda REsearch (not advertised on their web site), and I know of the folks in CA that copy 1702's for around $3US, but these Eproms are so rare (un-archived AFAIK) that I am reluctant to ship any off for fear of lost in transit or damage. Much rather do it "by hand" and in-shop. John :-#)# From jwhitton at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 25 12:01:36 2006 From: jwhitton at bellsouth.net (jwhitton) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 13:01:36 -0400 Subject: Classic hardware at the bottom of the world (was Re: Anyone have adatasheet for a Datel MX-1606?) References: <f4eb766f0610250840kfed335ewa096d33152ca7a4c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002e01c6f857$3bc44700$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> > > I brought plenty of cool non-work-related hardware... my SBC-6120 > w/FP-6120 and IOB-6120, a Spare Time GIzmos Embedded Elf w/disk > interface, an Elf-2000 w/STG1861, a STG mp3 player, an RB5X robot > (INS8073-based), an MC-1N microcontroller (also INS8073-based), > several LCD and VFD displays for LCDproc (http://www.lcdproc.org), a > "Real Console" 6809 board, a MicroElf, a couple of binary clocks, some > Atmel microcontrollers, and a modernish (2002) 6502 SBC. I think > that's most of the toys I brought to get through the night. I also > have Amiga Forever, simh and klh10 for emulation of various boxes (I > used to bring an Amiga down, but now it's just too large to justify). > > Plenty of toys here. Now I just have to pack them up and take them home. > Ethan, Gadzooks man! I had no idea that you were currently at such an extreme latitude. How in the dickens did you manage to pack so much gear to take along? I've pretty much finished the schematic for the Cypher IV sbc. Also pretty sure I can make a .gif copy to send along. I would appreciate any comments you might have, as I have had to guess about some of the component values. I'm still soldering the thing together, so it will be a few days. Also, I did find that Unicorn Electronics has the MM58274 clock chips....., for $29.00 each! I'll probably (resentfully) buy one, just to fill out the board, as I've not found anyone else that will sell single items. I would complain about the early frost, but it I fear it would fall on deaf ears...., stay warm. Regards, John Whitton From jpeterson at chinalake.com Wed Oct 25 12:17:20 2006 From: jpeterson at chinalake.com (J. M. Peterson) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 13:17:20 -0400 Subject: OT: GONE! Items looking for new home - DEC PCs, MV3100, BA350, misc SCSI drives and cables (MA, USA) Message-ID: <000e01c6f859$6df1d1a0$8c64c80a@prozac> All gone! Wow, I thought it would take days, not seconds. If I ever need an organ transplant, I am posting here first. Cheers, -Jim From wb6blv at inreach.com Wed Oct 25 14:31:11 2006 From: wb6blv at inreach.com (WB6BLV) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 12:31:11 -0700 Subject: Wang 2200 Message-ID: <005401c6f86c$22214540$5888fea9@dwilegal> Looking for a WANG 2200 MVT system or anything that will read Wang 5 meg removable platters; 8 inch floppy drive also needed; have many of the Wang terminals but a spare mpu might be nice. Thanks John WB6BLV at inreach.com From spc at conman.org Wed Oct 25 15:54:51 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 16:54:51 -0400 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <453B2330.3010507@oldskool.org> References: <E1Gb3VI-0002Je-00@xmission.xmission.com> <453AEED9.6090609@oldskool.org> <018b01c6f592$868dfb40$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <453B2330.3010507@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20061025205451.GC19473@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jim Leonard once stated: > Jay West wrote: > >If you'd read what some of the previous people have posted on this > >topic, you'd get a clue. Instead, I'm left thinking you chose to ignore > >any input that isn't what you want to hear. > > I haven't read a single statement that explains how native, compiled > code could possibly be beaten by an interpreter. A few years ago (and I'd point to the entry on my blog but the server it's on is currently down for reasons beyond my control) I wrote a program to process a logfile in C (on a machine that was either 33MHz or 66Mhz) knowing that Perl would be just too slow to use. It was too slow. The Perl version was faster. As in an order of magnitude (or two) faster. Which was odd, given that I was linking against a regular expression library in my C code. It took me a few days, but I was finally able to figure out the problem. And no, it wasn't the code I wrote (in Perl or C) that was the problem. Nor the computer (slow as it was). -spc (For an interactive program, you only have to be faster than the human running the program ... ) From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Oct 25 17:24:15 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:24:15 -0500 Subject: RL02 latch cable Message-ID: <000a01c6f884$51e76ad0$6700a8c0@BILLING> Does anyone have some experience with the best way to "lubricate?" the cable in the top cover of an RL02 drive? I can't tell for sure if the cable is wire or plastic or plasticoated wire or fiber..... The issue is probably typical... when you release the hand operated slide the clasp on the top cover at the front doesn't slide back all the way to latch the top closed. I am sure that it is not the spring in the front latch. Moving that by hand, there is plenty of spring tension left. The problem is definitely that the cable between the front latch and the hand operated slide isn't "sliding" in the channel. What good way have people found to address this. If it's fiber I was thinking of sliding the cable through wax once or twice. Is there a better way? Graphite would seem a bad idea.... Jay From drb at msu.edu Wed Oct 25 17:50:03 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 18:50:03 -0400 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <200610252250.k9PMo3xb030880@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Anyone have a rev. E or later ROM for an Emulex QD21? Thanks, De From ying6926 at ureach.com Wed Oct 25 18:40:10 2006 From: ying6926 at ureach.com (Henry Ji) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 19:40:10 -0400 Subject: vax 1000 matching monitor Message-ID: <200610252340.TAA30612@www22.ureach.com> We had one monitor Phillips C1435-AS that goes with a DEC Vax 1000, but the monitor is dead now and it has DB9 female connector. Does any one know the specification of this so that I can find a match or does anyone know of video card on vax 1000 computer? I was told it is typically EGA signal out of vax1000 and I was told by some people it is actually analog signal with DB9 connector with special pin match. Any help would be appreciated. Henry From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Oct 25 19:27:59 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 19:27:59 -0500 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <20061025205451.GC19473@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <E1Gb3VI-0002Je-00@xmission.xmission.com> <453AEED9.6090609@oldskool.org> <018b01c6f592$868dfb40$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <453B2330.3010507@oldskool.org> <20061025205451.GC19473@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <4540010F.4040702@oldskool.org> Sean Conner wrote: > It took me a few days, but I was finally able to figure out the problem. > And no, it wasn't the code I wrote (in Perl or C) that was the problem. Nor > the computer (slow as it was). What was it? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From evan at snarc.net Wed Oct 25 19:45:22 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 20:45:22 -0400 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER Message-ID: <000c01c6f898$05ee0440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Not that I or anyone else really needs another Apple IIe, but fyi: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140044907978 From gklinger at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 20:01:02 2006 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:01:02 -0400 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <000c01c6f898$05ee0440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000c01c6f898$05ee0440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <e662ba380610251801x5ca56af3w551ff1454e75e958@mail.gmail.com> Wow. I don't think that price would be justified even if it was new-in-box old stock that had been found somewhere. The Apple IIe just isn't that rare. To what do you attribute that price? Ignorance? Greed? Cockeyed optimism? An unhealthy dose of all three? I'm often stunned when I see things like this on eBay. Do people actually find buyers willing to pay these prices? -- Golan Klinger <gklinger at gmail.com> Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From spc at conman.org Wed Oct 25 20:19:25 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:19:25 -0400 Subject: Faraday cages ( was Re: staticy plastic tubs ) In-Reply-To: <4540010F.4040702@oldskool.org> References: <E1Gb3VI-0002Je-00@xmission.xmission.com> <453AEED9.6090609@oldskool.org> <018b01c6f592$868dfb40$6900a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <453B2330.3010507@oldskool.org> <20061025205451.GC19473@linus.groomlake.area51> <4540010F.4040702@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20061026011925.GC21167@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jim Leonard once stated: > Sean Conner wrote: > > It took me a few days, but I was finally able to figure out the problem. > >And no, it wasn't the code I wrote (in Perl or C) that was the problem. > >Nor > >the computer (slow as it was). > > What was it? Who ever compiled the regex library for that particular distro of Linux must have used the "really dumb mode" of the compiler and not optimized it, or it was optimized for an 80386 and not an 80486 or something. Now that the server is back up and I'm reading the actual entry I made at the time: http://boston.conman.org/2003/01/12.1 I see that it wasn't Perl but a *shell script* that was beating the compiled program. And in the entry above, you can see what I went through in figuring out the problem. So it could be said that a program in an interpreted language could be faster than a compiled program that does the same thing if the interpreter is itself optimized and the compiled program isn't. -spc (And really, when you get right down to it, isn't it all turtles^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hinterpreters all the way down?) From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Oct 25 20:41:28 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:41:28 -0400 Subject: Wanted: OS / diag media for Altos 886 Message-ID: <45401248.5020603@hawkmountain.net> I have an Altos 886 that apparently has corrupted boot blocks... and need to locate a copy of Xenix and probably of the SDX ? diagnostics in order to get it back up and running again. As I understand it, this system ran Xenix 3.2f, and it had to be the Xenix specifically for the Altos 886 (i.e. not 'generic' SCO Xenix). So, anyone out there have installation media that they care to part with or make copies of ? (copying may be difficult as these are Quad density 5.25" media as I understand it... 720K I believe (80 tracks double sided double density)). Thanks, -- Curt From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 20:49:47 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:49:47 -0400 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <e662ba380610251801x5ca56af3w551ff1454e75e958@mail.gmail.com> References: <000c01c6f898$05ee0440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <e662ba380610251801x5ca56af3w551ff1454e75e958@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4540143B.40600@gmail.com> Golan Klinger wrote: > Wow. I don't think that price would be justified even if it was > new-in-box old stock that had been found somewhere. The Apple IIe just > isn't that rare. Maybe it's full of cocaine or something? 8-) Peace... Sridhar From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Oct 25 21:04:14 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 22:04:14 -0400 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <e662ba380610251801x5ca56af3w551ff1454e75e958@mail.gmail.com> References: <000c01c6f898$05ee0440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <e662ba380610251801x5ca56af3w551ff1454e75e958@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4540179E.4010008@hawkmountain.net> Golan Klinger wrote: > Wow. I don't think that price would be justified even if it was > new-in-box old stock that had been found somewhere. The Apple IIe just > isn't that rare. indeed... for that price it ought to be delivered by Woz, and autographed by him too ! :-) > > To what do you attribute that price? Ignorance? Greed? Cockeyed > optimism? An unhealthy dose of all three? I'm often stunned when I see > things like this on eBay. Do people actually find buyers willing to > pay these prices? > And a lot of nerve... you don't even get a color monitor for that price !? I can put together the same setup (possibly minus the duo drive), including the same exact monochrome monitor... and I'd be happy to let it go for a penny on that seller's dollar :-) -- Curt From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 25 21:14:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 19:14:37 -0700 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <e662ba380610251801x5ca56af3w551ff1454e75e958@mail.gmail.com> References: <000c01c6f898$05ee0440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>, <e662ba380610251801x5ca56af3w551ff1454e75e958@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <453FB79D.28236.28583A34@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Oct 2006 at 21:01, Golan Klinger wrote: > Wow. I don't think that price would be justified even if it was > new-in-box old stock that had been found somewhere. The Apple IIe just > isn't that rare. > > To what do you attribute that price? Ignorance? Greed? Cockeyed > optimism? An unhealthy dose of all three? I'm often stunned when I see > things like this on eBay. Do people actually find buyers willing to > pay these prices? The local public schools (and probably schools everywhere) have truckloads of these things stashed away. I've seen pallets of these things loaded up and ready to go to the recycler. No, if this thing sells, I suspect that there's some money-laundering or other hanky-panky going on. Hmmm, maybe I can get $2500 for the Atari 520ST that I'm about to list..... Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Wed Oct 25 21:23:38 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 22:23:38 -0400 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <4540179E.4010008@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <000f01c6f8a5$bf4043b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> MARCH has a duo drive. All yours for the bargain price of $1,000. :) -----Original Message----- From: Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. [mailto:rescue at hawkmountain.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 10:04 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Craziest ebay price EVER Golan Klinger wrote: > Wow. I don't think that price would be justified even if it was > new-in-box old stock that had been found somewhere. The Apple IIe just > isn't that rare. indeed... for that price it ought to be delivered by Woz, and autographed by him too ! :-) > > To what do you attribute that price? Ignorance? Greed? Cockeyed > optimism? An unhealthy dose of all three? I'm often stunned when I see > things like this on eBay. Do people actually find buyers willing to > pay these prices? > And a lot of nerve... you don't even get a color monitor for that price !? I can put together the same setup (possibly minus the duo drive), including the same exact monochrome monitor... and I'd be happy to let it go for a penny on that seller's dollar :-) -- Curt From mmaginnis at gmail.com Wed Oct 25 22:40:42 2006 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 21:40:42 -0600 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <000c01c6f898$05ee0440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000c01c6f898$05ee0440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <45402E3A.30500@gmail.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Not that I or anyone else really needs another Apple IIe, but fyi: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140044907978 > > Topped only by this one: 140043231485 - Mike From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Oct 25 22:51:33 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 22:51:33 -0500 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <45402E3A.30500@gmail.com> References: <000c01c6f898$05ee0440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <45402E3A.30500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <454030C5.8040708@oldskool.org> Yeah, but clearly he didn't pay -- in fact, top two bidders, one looks like a shill and another looks like some guy just screwing around. Mike Maginnis wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Not that I or anyone else really needs another Apple IIe, but fyi: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140044907978 >> >> > > Topped only by this one: > > 140043231485 > > - Mike -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Oct 25 22:52:11 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 20:52:11 -0700 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <45402E3A.30500@gmail.com> References: <000c01c6f898$05ee0440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <45402E3A.30500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <454030EB.1040602@msm.umr.edu> Mike Maginnis wrote: >Evan Koblentz wrote: > > > >Topped only by this one: > >140043231485 > >- Mike > > run up to $6100 by a bunch of 1 and 6 feedback bidders. I noticed that the winner of this auction for the Apple is also the winning bidder, and presumed proud owner of a Vic 20 from his (1) feedback. No idea what was going on, but I figure that someone saw daddy bid on something and doesn't grok the concept of having to pay $6100 for something. jim From wizard at voyager.net Thu Oct 26 00:36:57 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 01:36:57 -0400 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <000c01c6f898$05ee0440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000c01c6f898$05ee0440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <1161841017.6242.15.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2006-10-25 at 20:45 -0400, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Not that I or anyone else really needs another Apple IIe, but fyi: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140044907978 Maybe in a hundred years... when they are actual antiques. I know the feeling, though. I've got an old Monroe (Litton) OC-8820, possibly the finest CP/M machine ever made in one package. I saw one on eBay, and the joker selling it was asking $600. Hmm. Just checked again, and his opening bid is now $250. That's not TOO bad. But, they were selling these machines, and any like them, for $50 each... and thinking about selling by the pound, recently. It's way too early to view this stuff as precious ancient technology. Cripes, I drive a car from that era... Oh, by the way... This is my first post. (Just throw roses...) I'm an oldie, and feeling at home already. Besides modern stuff, most of it running Linux, I've got an Imsai 8080, a bunch of old PC clones, a Radio Shack Color Computer, the Monroe, a Macintosh SE, and some things I whipped up myself. I can't indulge myself as I'd like to, since I don't have all that much space. I'm a true expert in CP/M, and 8080 and 6809 assembly language. Am currently looking for a repair manual for the Monroe, as it has crapped out. I have *** ALL *** the software for it, both CP/M and that oddball Monroe Op/Sys. At the risk of being branded a heretic with my first post, I have to say I'm a fan of the 2.8 megabyte DSL I have now, compared with the 110 baud Teletype 33 KSR I first used... In computers more than any other field, time improves the process. On the down side, I was secure in that NOBODY knew any MORE than I did about an 8080 machine with CP/M. There were quite a few people who knew AS MUCH, but nobody knew more. It's not like that any more -- it's WAY more complicated, by several orders of magnitude. Gone are the days when you can just whip up your own O/S for a computer you designed and built, and have it compete. At any rate, I'm glad to be here. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Oct 26 00:46:30 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 22:46:30 -0700 Subject: CD-ROM archiving Message-ID: <20061026054630.GA20647@motherbrain.nat.squeep.com> Hey folks, Does anyone have any guidelines about making archival images of CD-ROM media? For years, I've been using dd on Solaris or Linux to dump the raw bytes of CD-ROMs, and cdrecord if I want to make a copy from the raw image, but I don't know if this is considered "good enough" to preserve all the associated filesystem and partition structures of the disc. It has been for me, so far, but I'd like to hear other opinions on the matter. How do you archive CD-ROM images? Does anyone use any special software or have any tips? -Seth From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 26 01:02:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:02:51 -0700 Subject: Intel MDS and Mohawk Message-ID: <453FED1B.29869.29292BBC@cclist.sydex.com> I was going over some old 8" Intel diskettes and discovered some that have the legend "MDS is a registered trademark of Mohawk Data Science Corporation" Does anyone remember when Intel started adding the asterisked text to "MDS"? Cheers, Chuck From jedwards4 at cinci.rr.com Thu Oct 26 00:52:39 2006 From: jedwards4 at cinci.rr.com (Jerry) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 01:52:39 -0400 Subject: Western Union self-winding clock Message-ID: <000d01c6f8c2$f26fe0c0$4d0abd41@yourkybtg65gxe> I am a former Western Union employee and while there I got my hands on one of the self winding advertising clocks WU offered with its time service. Saw your articles on the web and wondering if you could point me in the direction of a web site or book(s) that I might be able to find the value of this clock. As information, I have already tried using most of the web search engines such as Google, MSN, Yahoo etc., without much success. Matter of fact that is how I found your articles. Any help or assistance you could provide would be very much apprecated. Jerry Edwards From jedwards4 at cinci.rr.com Thu Oct 26 00:55:27 2006 From: jedwards4 at cinci.rr.com (Jerry) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 01:55:27 -0400 Subject: Western Union self-winding clock Message-ID: <001301c6f8c3$56a82890$4d0abd41@yourkybtg65gxe> Saw your note re self winding clocks on the net and that your dad had one. I am also in possession of one and trying to find the value of it. Have you or your dad ever come across a book(s) or web site that provides some type of value to these clocks. I have tried using the web search engines without any success. Matter of fact that is how I found your request. Any assistance or help you could provide would be appreciated. Jerry Edwards From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Oct 26 01:20:58 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 01:20:58 -0500 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <1161841017.6242.15.camel@linux.site> References: <000c01c6f898$05ee0440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <1161841017.6242.15.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <454053CA.9020800@oldskool.org> Warren Wolfe wrote: > There were quite a few people who knew AS MUCH, but nobody knew more. > It's not like that any more -- it's WAY more complicated, by several > orders of magnitude. I agree, which is why I find myself gravitating toward 8088 assembler, trying to master it. At least that's a stationary target! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From gklinger at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 01:21:34 2006 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 02:21:34 -0400 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <45402E3A.30500@gmail.com> References: <000c01c6f898$05ee0440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <45402E3A.30500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <e662ba380610252321m36fab6ahbe7163aaf87e3218@mail.gmail.com> Mike Maginnis wrote: > Topped only by this one: > > 140043231485 Perhaps the earlier auction explains the current one. The current seller saw that auction price when searching for a value for his Apple IIe and thought that $4700 was a fair price. Sure, it's high, but if you don't know what older computers are going for you might be inclined to believe your 'antique' is worth a great deal. Is that a plausible explanation? I still don't know why anyone would make a ridiculous bid as it as a (somewhat) legally binding contract. One might find themselves being sued, even if only in small claims court, and end up with a serious problem. -- Golan Klinger <gklinger at gmail.com> Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 26 01:49:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2006 23:49:31 -0700 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <1161841017.6242.15.camel@linux.site> References: <000c01c6f898$05ee0440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>, <1161841017.6242.15.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <453FF80B.5727.2953E3A8@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Oct 2006 at 1:36, Warren Wolfe wrote: > I've got an old Monroe (Litton) OC-8820, possibly > the finest CP/M machine ever made in one package. I I dunno--I might disagree with that one. :) The 8820 looks big and boxy. I'll have to post some photos of my 1979 Durango 900--a little bigger than a DECwriter, with two 980K floppies; or one floppy and a 40MB hard disk, multipass dot matrix printer with downloadable fonts (tractor or friction feed), 4 async serial ports, 1 sync port and optional GPIB--all in the same box. Up to 256KB memory, switchable in 1K pages. Ran CP/M, MP/M and its own MT OS. Ran the complete set of MCBA business apps. Cheers, Chuck From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Oct 26 06:50:53 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 06:50:53 -0500 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <1161841017.6242.15.camel@linux.site> References: <000c01c6f898$05ee0440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <200610261043.k9QAhc3x008329@hosting.monisys.ca> > Oh, by the way... This is my first post. (Just throw roses...) Welcome to the list... >I can't indulge myself as I'd like to, since I > don't have all that much space. I'm a true expert in CP/M, and 8080 >and 6809 assembly language. How familier this sounds (my two favorite CPUs). > Am currently looking for a repair manual for > the Monroe, as it has crapped out. I have *** ALL *** the software > for it, both CP/M and that oddball Monroe Op/Sys. Has this software been imaged/archived/preserved? If not, it really should be - If you are interested in doing this, I would be happy to provide assistance, and also to host the images on my site. Regards, -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From wizard at voyager.net Thu Oct 26 07:55:56 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:55:56 -0400 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <453FF80B.5727.2953E3A8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <000c01c6f898$05ee0440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> , <1161841017.6242.15.camel@linux.site> <453FF80B.5727.2953E3A8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1161867356.6242.55.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2006-10-25 at 23:49 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Oct 2006 at 1:36, Warren Wolfe wrote: > > > I've got an old Monroe (Litton) OC-8820, possibly > > the finest CP/M machine ever made in one package. I > > I dunno--I might disagree with that one. :) The 8820 looks big and > boxy. (EEK! Looks like I hit a nerve with my first post. Oh, well, start out with a religious argument, that's MY theory.) Oh, come on... who goes by looks? If looks is the criterion, nothing beats the sexy flashing lights of the Imsai 8080... The Monroe had, far and away, the best BIOS that was ever part of a commercial computer. It is typical that Monroe downplayed the CP/M aspect of the machine, in favor of the Monroe O/S, which, as we all know, conquered the world. Ahem. Anyway, the Monroe would run through the media, seeing if there was a disk from which it could boot, and when it found one, it booted, and made the drive in which the boot disk resided drive A: unless the user switched them. It had 128K of paging memory, and 128K RAM disk. I could load all of CP/M, a few cherished public domain utilities, and Turbo Pascal into the RAM disk, and that baby FLEW! Disk access was highly optimized, too. I had a disk that loaded the "choice" stuff into RAM disk, and one that loaded the basics and dBase, if I was working with data. Then, take out the boot disk, and both disk drives could be used for data with the RAM disk as the default drive. ZOOM! > I'll have to post some photos of my 1979 Durango 900--a little bigger > than a DECwriter, with two 980K floppies; or one floppy and a 40MB > hard disk, multipass dot matrix printer with downloadable fonts > (tractor or friction feed), 4 async serial ports, 1 sync port and > optional GPIB--all in the same box. Up to 256KB memory, switchable > in 1K pages. Ran CP/M, MP/M and its own MT OS. Ran the complete set > of MCBA business apps. Well, don't expect ME to argue with you about your machine. I learned long ago never to tell a proud parent their baby looks like a chimp on dope. (Not that there's any comparison to the present situation...) Oh, yeah, the GPIB reference reminds me... I've got an HP CP/M machine, too, that looks like their old brown monitors, with a standalone dual diskette drive that connects via HPIB. I forget the model number... Cripes, I've got old computers stashed all over the place. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 26 08:03:44 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 08:03:44 -0500 Subject: CD-ROM archiving In-Reply-To: <20061026054630.GA20647@motherbrain.nat.squeep.com> References: <20061026054630.GA20647@motherbrain.nat.squeep.com> Message-ID: <4540B230.1030804@yahoo.co.uk> Seth J. Morabito wrote: > Hey folks, > > Does anyone have any guidelines about making archival images of > CD-ROM media? For years, I've been using dd on Solaris or Linux > to dump the raw bytes of CD-ROMs, and cdrecord if I want to make > a copy from the raw image, but I don't know if this is considered > "good enough" to preserve all the associated filesystem and partition > structures of the disc. It has been for me, so far, but I'd like to > hear other opinions on the matter. How do you archive CD-ROM images? Hmm, won't most tools create an ISO filesystem image from a CD? I would expect that's good enough in nearly all cases, although possibly not for things like games consoles where I believe the original media's screwed around with as an anti-piracy measure. Personally I find that I only ever use a few percent of the commercial software on a CD, though - e.g. I'll just install the app but not all the bundled junk that comes with it. Saving an archive image means you get everything, warts and all. For a true archive you should save everything, but if it's really just for personal use I'd be tempted to just save what you think you'll need. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Oct 26 08:36:37 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 09:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CP/M - was Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <1161867356.6242.55.camel@linux.site> References: <000c01c6f898$05ee0440$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> , <1161841017.6242.15.camel@linux.site> <453FF80B.5727.2953E3A8@cclist.sydex.com> <1161867356.6242.55.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0610260928400.7937@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 26 Oct 2006, Warren Wolfe wrote: > ... > Anyway, the Monroe would run through the media, seeing if there was a > disk from which it could boot, and when it found one, it booted, and > made the drive in which the boot disk resided drive A: unless the user > switched them. It had 128K of paging memory, and 128K RAM disk. I > could load all of CP/M, a few cherished public domain utilities, and > Turbo Pascal into the RAM disk, and that baby FLEW! Disk access was > highly optimized, too. I had a disk that loaded the "choice" stuff into > RAM disk, and one that loaded the basics and dBase, if I was working > with data. Then, take out the boot disk, and both disk drives could be > used for data with the RAM disk as the default drive. ZOOM! I did something similar with my TRS-80 Model 4 with 128KB, running Montezuma Micro CP/M. 64KB was available for CP/M, and the other 64KB could be made into a RAMdisk. I wrote a BIOS patcher which copied the system tracks from the boot disk to the RAMdisk, then switched the system drive to the RAMdisk and made both floppys available for data. With Wordstar's overlays loaded into the RAMdisk, that 4.0MHz system ran rings around the first 4.77MHz IBM PC. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From Glen.Heiberg at gijima.com Thu Oct 26 09:35:10 2006 From: Glen.Heiberg at gijima.com (Glen Heiberg) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:35:10 +0200 Subject: HP CP/M system - [WAS Re: Craziest ebay price EVER] Message-ID: <21983F0E5895694FBDDC5E9E25202592030886@RST-CLE02.za.astgroup.com> Warren wrote: ================== Oh, yeah, the GPIB reference reminds me... I've got an HP CP/M machine, too, that looks like their old brown monitors, with a standalone dual diskette drive that connects via HPIB. I forget the model number... Cripes, I've got old computers stashed all over the place. ================== Must be an HP 125; if it's a 3.5" disk drive, chances are it's an HP 9121D. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Oct 26 10:04:56 2006 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:04:56 +0200 Subject: CD-ROM archiving In-Reply-To: <4540B230.1030804@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20061026054630.GA20647@motherbrain.nat.squeep.com> <4540B230.1030804@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061026150456.GD26271@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2006-10-26 08:03:44 -0500, Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Seth J. Morabito wrote: > > Does anyone have any guidelines about making archival images of > > CD-ROM media? For years, I've been using dd on Solaris or Linux > > to dump the raw bytes of CD-ROMs, and cdrecord if I want to make > > a copy from the raw image, but I don't know if this is considered > > "good enough" to preserve all the associated filesystem and partition > > structures of the disc. It has been for me, so far, but I'd like to > > hear other opinions on the matter. How do you archive CD-ROM images? > > Hmm, won't most tools create an ISO filesystem image from a CD? I would > expect that's good enough in nearly all cases, although possibly not for > things like games consoles where I believe the original media's screwed > around with as an anti-piracy measure. For a pure data CD, an ISO image is probably good enough. (Though you may want to additionally get hold of all the TOC/ATIP information that's not inside the ISO image.) For anything else (CD+G, CDI, ...) you need to understand how a CD works and at which layer this type of CD is operating. Especially for "copy-protected" CDs, which may contain premastered broken sectors, you probably also want to get hold of the C2 level error bits. > Personally I find that I only ever use a few percent of the commercial > software on a CD, though - e.g. I'll just install the app but not all the > bundled junk that comes with it. Saving an archive image means you get > everything, warts and all. For a true archive you should save everything, > but if it's really just for personal use I'd be tempted to just save what > you think you'll need. I started to write some helper library to "easily" access SCSI devices (to which virtually all CD drives belong, even those that are connected to an IDE cable for transport.) That one can read images that contain most of all available information, but that's far from being production-ready... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Gib Dein Bestes. Dann ?bertriff Dich selbst! the second : From william.berkeley at yahoo.com.sg Thu Oct 26 04:12:32 2006 From: william.berkeley at yahoo.com.sg (william zheng) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:12:32 +0800 (CST) Subject: DEC spare parts Message-ID: <20061026091232.47480.qmail@web61114.mail.yahoo.com> I have a bunch of spare parts sitting in my house for quite a while, all are good and many unused as these were formerly support spares or inventory left over. anyone interested pls contact me directly, main constraint is all these are located in Singapore so have to find a good way to get them over to whichever corner in the world! 1. MicroVAX II modules: KA630-AA CPU board with 1MB memory MS630-BB 4MB Memory Emulex QD21 ESDI disk controller DEQNA Ethernet controller KDA50 SDI disk controller KFQSA-AA DSSI-to-Qbus adapter 2. Digital VAXstation 3100 model 30 with: 52MB internal SCSI disk 1.3GB external SCSI disk 8MB memory 3. PDP-11/34 UNIBUS board sets: M7891 (set of 2) M8265/M8266 M7485/M7486 Emulex SC12 disk controller Emulex TC13 tape coupler 4. SUN 4/65 SPARCstation 1+ with: 16MB memory external Shoebox with 150MB QIC tape 327MB SCSI disk external CDROM drive, Toshiba external 4GB Baracudda Disk 5. Clearpoint DNX4RAM/8MB 8MB memory for Apollo DN4000 (unused) 6. Clearpoint DNXRAM/2MB 2MB memory for Apollo DN2000 (unused) 7. Clearpoint DCME-V88/16MB 16MB memory for VAX85XX 8. Clearpoint DCME-V78/8MB 8MB memory for VAX780 (unused) 9. Clearpoint DCME-V75/1MB 1MB memory for VAX750 (unused) 10. Clearpoint SNX2RAM/8MB 8MB memory for SUN 4/2XX, 3/2XX, 3/4XX (unused) 11. Camintonn CMX-1211D 12MB memory for MicroVAX 3100 (unused) 12. Camintonn CMX-871 8MB memory for DECstation 5000 200/240 (unused) 13. DATARAM DR650/32MB memory for VAX63X0 - VAX66X0 (unused) 14. DATARAM DR650/64MB memory for VAX63X0 - VAX66X0 15. DATARAM DR650/128MB memory for VAX63X0 - VAX66X0 16. DATARAM DR3100VS/16MB 16MB memory for MicroVAX 3100 (unused) 22. Clearpoint DCMS-TSB VAXBI-to-SCSI Diff tape controller for 8mm (unused) 23. CMD CQ0220A SCSI host adapter for Qbus, single ended 24. CMD CDI4000/SC DSSI-to-SCSI bridge adapter for 5.25" SCSI drives 25. Digital RQDX3 disk controller for Qbus 26. Digital DEQNA Ethernet controller for Qbus 27. Digital DPV11 single line sync comm controller for Qbus 28. Emulex UC06 SCSI host adapter for Qbus, Differential 29. Emulex UC07 SCSI host adapter for Qbus, single-ended 30. Emulex UC08-III Dual SCSI host adapter for VAX4000 Qbus 31. Emulex DA01 SDI Disk Channel Card for HSC controller 32. EXCELAN EXOS1219-08 Intelligent Ethernet controller for MVIII (unused) 33. Emulex P3000 4 port Print Server (unused), LAT/TCP with: P3KDP Dataproduct I/F P3KCEN Centronics I/F P3KPC DB25 I/F P3KSER Serial I/F 34. Emulex NJ01B-NT+ NetJet Print Server for HP MIO Printers (new), LAT/TCP 35. Emulex NJ01B-NT+ NetJet Print Server for HP MIO Printers, LAT/TCP, used --------------------------------- What is the internet to you? Contribute to the Yahoo! Time Capsule and be a part of internet history. From adamg at pobox.com Thu Oct 26 06:27:26 2006 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 07:27:26 -0400 Subject: CD-ROM archiving Message-ID: <20061026112725.GA87790@silme.pair.com> Seth J. Morabito wrote: > Does anyone have any guidelines about making archival images of > CD-ROM media? For years, I've been using dd on Solaris or Linux > to dump the raw bytes of CD-ROMs, and cdrecord if I want to make > a copy from the raw image, but I don't know if this is considered > "good enough" to preserve all the associated filesystem and partition > structures of the disc. It has been for me, so far, but I'd like to > hear other opinions on the matter. How do you archive CD-ROM images? As long as there's only one track on the CD, dd on Linux will grab everything. On Solaris you might have to be careful to pick the right device node so you grab the whole thing. On MacOS X you definitely have to pick the right device node -- the one time I tried it, I picked wrong and only got one partition. Multi-partition discs usually have just one track containing all partitions. If you want to be sure you can "cdrecord -toc", if there's just one data track, you're good. Some discs actually do have more than one track. The SunCD demo disc is an example. It has a data track (probably with multiple partitions, I don't remember) and a few audio tracks. Some combination of dd (or readcd -- see below) and cdparanoia should be able to copy discs like this. I usually use dd, or even cat, on the first try reading a disc, just out of laziness. But there's a program 'readcd' (part of the cdrtools suite, IIRC) which is a little more sophisticated. In particular, if a disc has a marginal sector or two, dd will give up, but readcd will retry until it gets a good read. Another note, if you are reading CD-Rs which were written in TAO mode, you will get some empty sectors appended to the end, then an I/O error as your drive tries to read past the leadout. But you're not actually losing any data. -- Adam From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Oct 26 11:33:51 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:33:51 +0100 Subject: CD-ROM archiving In-Reply-To: <20061026150456.GD26271@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <008901c6f91c$8a957910$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > For a pure data CD, an ISO image is probably good enough. (Though you > may want to additionally get hold of all the TOC/ATIP information > that's not inside the ISO image.) OpenVMS CDs and Ultrix CDs are not ISO9660 just for starters so I think you really do need a dump of the entire CD (via dd or any of the CD/DVD-writing programs out there). Even if it looks like an ISO9660 CD that's not enough. I've written CDs that have both an ODS-2 filesystem and an ISO9660 filesystem (in my case the data was shared between the two but there could easily have been data that existed in only one or the other). > For anything else (CD+G, CDI, ...) you need to understand how a CD > works and at which layer this type of CD is operating. > > Especially for "copy-protected" CDs, which may contain premastered > broken sectors, you probably also want to get hold of the C2 level > error bits. Ideally you would want a dump of the raw CD "bitstream" (I think it has a proper name but I don't know it) but for most CDs that's far more than is needed. If the CD device for the target system never made that much info available you probably don't need it. Even having all that info won't necessarily be enough to recreate a CD (the PS copy protection scheme you mention relies on deliberate error data and I think even modern writers don't give you enough control to reproduce such a disc). Antonio From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Oct 26 11:47:15 2006 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 18:47:15 +0200 Subject: CD-ROM archiving In-Reply-To: <008901c6f91c$8a957910$5b01a8c0@uatempname> References: <20061026150456.GD26271@lug-owl.de> <008901c6f91c$8a957910$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <20061026164715.GE26271@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2006-10-26 17:33:51 +0100, arcarlini at iee.org <arcarlini at iee.org> wrote: > Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > For a pure data CD, an ISO image is probably good enough. (Though you > > may want to additionally get hold of all the TOC/ATIP information > > that's not inside the ISO image.) > > OpenVMS CDs and Ultrix CDs are not ISO9660 just for starters so I > think you really do need a dump of the entire CD (via dd or any > of the CD/DVD-writing programs out there). Even if it looks like > an ISO9660 CD that's not enough. I've written CDs that have both > an ODS-2 filesystem and an ISO9660 filesystem (in my case the data > was shared between the two but there could easily have been data > that existed in only one or the other). Are they multi-session? > > For anything else (CD+G, CDI, ...) you need to understand how a CD > > works and at which layer this type of CD is operating. > > > > Especially for "copy-protected" CDs, which may contain premastered > > broken sectors, you probably also want to get hold of the C2 level > > error bits. > > Ideally you would want a dump of the raw CD "bitstream" (I think it > has a proper name but I don't know it) but for most CDs that's far more > than is needed. If the CD device for the target system never made that Unfortunately, you cannot access it at the lowest level with regular CD drives. (Well, at least not with the documented MMC-5 commands...) > much info available you probably don't need it. Even having all that > info won't necessarily be enough to recreate a CD (the PS copy > protection > scheme you mention relies on deliberate error data and I think even > modern > writers don't give you enough control to reproduce such a disc). These are two distinct problems: Preserving all information and recreating a new disk from it. Even while we might not be able to reproduce an errorneous disk with today's CD burners, we really might want to preserve the information. Just in case the original CD gets lost. Or think about emulators. They could be taught to emulate errors. I didn't understand all of the CD formats (information about these is quite sparse and I don't have some free money to buy the standards) and I know even less about the burning process. But I remember that there are some (Windows based) tools around to burn CDs with errors, so I guess it's possible to some extent... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf the second : f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger. From wizard at voyager.net Thu Oct 26 12:24:56 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:24:56 -0400 Subject: HP CP/M system - [WAS Re: Craziest ebay price EVER] In-Reply-To: <21983F0E5895694FBDDC5E9E25202592030886@RST-CLE02.za.astgroup.com> References: <21983F0E5895694FBDDC5E9E25202592030886@RST-CLE02.za.astgroup.com> Message-ID: <1161883496.6242.57.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2006-10-26 at 16:35 +0200, Glen Heiberg wrote: > Warren wrote: > > ================== > Oh, yeah, the GPIB reference reminds me... I've got an HP CP/M > machine, too, that looks like their old brown monitors, with a > standalone dual diskette drive that connects via HPIB. I forget the > model number... Cripes, I've got old computers stashed all over the > place. > ================== > > > Must be an HP 125; if it's a 3.5" disk drive, chances are it's > an HP 9121D. Bingo! HP-125. That's the ticket. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 26 12:25:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 10:25:43 -0700 Subject: Intel BPK-72A-4 Message-ID: <45408D27.18192.2B9A5EC6@cclist.sydex.com> For collectors of arcana out there, I've listed an Intel bubble memory development kit on ePay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320042426869&ssPage Name=ADME:L:LCA:US:31 I never got around to using it--after I discovered the power requirements of the thing, I moved on to battery-backed SRAM instead. :) Cheers, Chuck From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Thu Oct 26 12:36:33 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:36:33 -0400 Subject: CD-ROM archiving In-Reply-To: <20061026112725.GA87790@silme.pair.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061026133448.053624a0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Adam Goldman may have mentioned these words: >... > >I usually use dd, or even cat, on the first try reading a disc, just >out of laziness. But there's a program 'readcd' (part of the cdrtools >suite, IIRC) which is a little more sophisticated. In particular, if >a disc has a marginal sector or two, dd will give up, but readcd will >retry until it gets a good read. dd will "give up on that sector but continue beyond error" if one uses: dd conv=noerror ... It can be handy if one needs to get data after a bad spot on the disk. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Thu Oct 26 12:46:08 2006 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:46:08 +0200 Subject: CD-ROM archiving In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061026133448.053624a0@mail.30below.com> References: <20061026112725.GA87790@silme.pair.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20061026133448.053624a0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20061026174608.GI26271@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2006-10-26 13:36:33 -0400, Roger Merchberger <zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com> wrote: > Rumor has it that Adam Goldman may have mentioned these words: > > I usually use dd, or even cat, on the first try reading a disc, just > > out of laziness. But there's a program 'readcd' (part of the cdrtools > > suite, IIRC) which is a little more sophisticated. In particular, if > > a disc has a marginal sector or two, dd will give up, but readcd will > > retry until it gets a good read. > > dd will "give up on that sector but continue beyond error" if one uses: > > dd conv=noerror ... > > It can be handy if one needs to get data after a bad spot on the disk. Prerequisite: * It's a pure data CD * The error wasn't willfully placed `readcd' is a even better than `dd'/`cat', because it can access the CD drive at a lower layer, thus preserving more data. (That is, you can eg. image VideoCDs with it, or CD-DAs and the like. These cannot be cloned using dd.) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Wenn ich wach bin, tr?ume ich. the second : From kelly at catcorner.org Thu Oct 26 13:12:06 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:12:06 -0400 Subject: 8" disk drives and modern PCs Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B1419@MEOW.catcorner.org> I have a qustion about powering the 8" disk drives I have connected to my disk duplicating computer. Specifically, what is the "best" power on sequence? The drives I use are the Tandon TM848-2E. It requires 24V @ 750mA and 5V @ 450 mA to operate. Pretty easy so far. I use an external power supply to power the drives. I want to add a relay powered by one of the diskette drive lines from the standard PC supply to turn this power supply on. Again, faily simple. My question is what is the best order to turn things on. I've always turned the drive on before powering up the PC, and turned the drive off after powering off the PC. Does this really matter? I always make sure there is no disk in the drive before doing any power cycling. To simplify matters, I could always just put everything on one big switch on the mains. You know, like using the power strip to power on/off. Any opinions about this? Any suggestions? Thanks, Kelly From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 26 13:38:55 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:38:55 -0500 Subject: CD-ROM archiving In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061026133448.053624a0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061026133448.053624a0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <454100BF.8060805@yahoo.co.uk> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Adam Goldman may have mentioned these words: >> ... >> >> I usually use dd, or even cat, on the first try reading a disc, just >> out of laziness. But there's a program 'readcd' (part of the cdrtools >> suite, IIRC) which is a little more sophisticated. In particular, if >> a disc has a marginal sector or two, dd will give up, but readcd will >> retry until it gets a good read. > > dd will "give up on that sector but continue beyond error" if one uses: > > dd conv=noerror ... I can never remember if I need 'notrunc' or 'sync' in combination with 'noerror' so that the destination file ends up the same size as the source (with any bad spots padded with zeros). Normally such behaviour is desirable, but I always end up having to do a few tests each time in order to get the right combination of options... From the man page I suspect it's 'sync', but the entry for 'notrunc' is a little ambiguous. 'swab' can be handy too (why isn't it 'swap'? Short for 'swap bytes' maybe?) if manipulation is required on the resulting image. I know the data on my NCR Tower's disks is stored in byte-swapped order, and doubtless there are other systems around like this too. cheers Jules From fireflyst at earthlink.net Thu Oct 26 13:47:43 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 13:47:43 -0500 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <e662ba380610251801x5ca56af3w551ff1454e75e958@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002e01c6f92f$38f3aab0$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> HEY. FREE SHIPPING. :) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Golan Klinger > Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2006 8:01 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Craziest ebay price EVER > > Wow. I don't think that price would be justified even if it > was new-in-box old stock that had been found somewhere. The > Apple IIe just isn't that rare. > > To what do you attribute that price? Ignorance? Greed? > Cockeyed optimism? An unhealthy dose of all three? I'm often > stunned when I see things like this on eBay. Do people > actually find buyers willing to pay these prices? > > -- > Golan Klinger <gklinger at gmail.com> > Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Oct 26 15:34:06 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:34:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CD-ROM archiving In-Reply-To: <454100BF.8060805@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061026133448.053624a0@mail.30below.com> <454100BF.8060805@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200610262035.QAA24623@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > 'swab' can be handy too (why isn't it 'swap'? Short for 'swap bytes' > maybe?) My guess would be yes - from the PDP-11 opcode for byte-swapping a 16-bit value, SWAB. Now if only it had another option to swap the halves of 32-bit quantities.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Oct 26 16:05:37 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:05:37 -0500 Subject: Wang 2200 In-Reply-To: <005401c6f86c$22214540$5888fea9@dwilegal> References: <005401c6f86c$22214540$5888fea9@dwilegal> Message-ID: <45412321.50008@pacbell.net> WB6BLV wrote: > Looking for a WANG 2200 MVT system or > anything that will read Wang 5 meg removable platters; > 8 inch floppy drive also needed; have many of the > Wang terminals but a spare mpu might be nice. > > Thanks > > John > WB6BLV at inreach.com John, I happen to be working on some software to decode the data off of 8" SSSD hard sectored disks using a catweasel card. I have a pile of such disks I want to archive and I no longer have a way to read them natively (I left my 2200 WCS/30 system with www.digibarn.com when I moved -- single 8" 2270 and a 2260 disk pack system). If you are anywhere near santa cruz, maybe you can work a deal out with Bruce Damer (digibarn proprietor) to read your stuff. If your 8" disks are the format I'm building the reader for, I'd be happy to capture yours once I've processed my pile. While my 2200 emulator currently doesn't run the MVP OS (because I don't emulate the terminal mux board or terminals yet), you can run various versions of the VP OS, or even the first generation 2200T Wang BASIC. http://www.wang2200.org From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Oct 26 16:15:51 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:15:51 -0700 Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: <CA45571DE57E1C45BF3552118BA92C9D02909DF1@WDSCEXBECL03.sc.wdc.com> I was at work and needed an EBCDIC code, came across this. A useful link if you are using the old hardware and need a old code. http://www.lookuptables.com/ Billy From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Oct 26 16:23:07 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:23:07 -0500 Subject: Floppy drive box thingie; was: Re: Wow; $192 for a 5.25 In-Reply-To: <4538B108.21848.CE69B29@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4538B108.21848.CE69B29@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4541273B.4050302@yahoo.co.uk> I'm collating all thoughts in to some form of 'pre-design' document at the moment, which is at least a step further than we normally get with these discussions :-) Some questions that it's thrown up: What values of data transfer rates do we need to support? What drive rotational speeds do we support (although this is presumably largely irrelevant, as a by-product of transfer speed and density select?) Do we want to support 'extra features' like motorised eject? What about head load/unload? Such things mean extra configuration and extra hardware (in that some lines need to be able to work as either inputs or outputs depending on config) What configuration exists for a drive (sides, tracks, motor on/off delay etc.) that needs to be stored? How many drives do we want to support? Is it desirable for each drive to have it's own connection to the device (rather than the typical 2 or 4 drives per cable setup)? Do we even want to do something clever and modular so that each drive has its own interface with unique I/O address and you just essentially stack them up on the device's CPU address / data bus as needed? cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 26 16:40:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:40:52 -0700 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 Message-ID: <4540C8F4.3638.2C83F6A1@cclist.sydex.com> I've got a TRS-80 Model 16 that I'm going to put on ePay, but I'd like to clean some of the grunge out of the half-height Tandon 8" diskette drives. In a nutshell, can someone tell me the easy way to remove these drives from the case? Thanks! Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 26 16:55:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 14:55:02 -0700 Subject: 8" disk drives and modern PCs In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B1419@MEOW.catcorner.org> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B1419@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <4540CC46.21562.2C90F016@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Oct 2006 at 14:12, Kelly Leavitt wrote: > My question is what is the best order to turn things on. >I've always turned the drive on before powering up the PC, and >turned the drive off after powering off the PC. Does this really >matter? I always make sure there is no disk in the drive before >doing any power cycling. Given that signals on a floppy interface are active-low, I'm going to venture that the sequence should be power to the CPU, then power to the drive. This should prevent spurious drive head-loads, accidental writes (even if you don't think you'll ever have a disk in the drive) and other nicieites. Similarly, powering down should be drive then CPU. Or at least that's what seems reasonable. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 26 17:48:45 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <CA45571DE57E1C45BF3552118BA92C9D02909DF1@WDSCEXBECL03.sc.wdc.com> from "Billy Pettit" at Oct 26, 2006 02:15:51 PM Message-ID: <200610262248.k9QMmj7b024814@onyx.spiritone.com> > I was at work and needed an EBCDIC code, came across this. A useful link if > you are using the old hardware and need a old code. > > > http://www.lookuptables.com/ > > Billy > You mean you don't have how to create your own EBCDIC table memorized? I memorized it over 16 years ago, and oddly enough I still remember it. Zane From kelly at catcorner.org Thu Oct 26 18:29:55 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 19:29:55 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30361DB@MEOW.catcorner.org> > Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 5:41 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: TRS-80 Model 16 > > > I've got a TRS-80 Model 16 that I'm going to put on ePay, but I'd > like to clean some of the grunge out of the half-height Tandon 8" > diskette drives. > > In a nutshell, can someone tell me the easy way to remove these > drives from the case? > Model 16 or 16B? The procedure is different. If it is a 16b: Remove slot access cover in back. Turn the computer over (feet up) Remove the 10 or so screws from around the case Turn back over, being carefull to keep it together. From the front of the unit, lift top shell and rotate left the CRT stays attached to that piece of the case you lift up You should now see the floppy cage on the right Remove all the screws from around the cage and the two drives should come out as a unit. If it is the original 16: Remove the two back screws from the case cover. Remove this. Remove all the screws from around the front (CRT) bezel. It should drop off, with the CRT attached. You should now be able to get to all of the screws If this is an original 16, please let me know when you list it. If you're interested in private sale, let me know. I'll send an offer that you can either accept or ignore. I wouldn't even ask you to clean the drives. If you need it, I can scan in an exploded diagram from the two service manuals. Kelly From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 26 18:28:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 00:28:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: 8" disk drives and modern PCs In-Reply-To: <4540CC46.21562.2C90F016@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 26, 6 02:55:02 pm Message-ID: <m1GdEek-000IycC@p850ug1> > > On 26 Oct 2006 at 14:12, Kelly Leavitt wrote: > > > My question is what is the best order to turn things on. > >I've always turned the drive on before powering up the PC, and > >turned the drive off after powering off the PC. Does this really > >matter? I always make sure there is no disk in the drive before > >doing any power cycling. > > Given that signals on a floppy interface are active-low, I'm going to > venture that the sequence should be power to the CPU, then power to YEs, but any correctly-designed disk controller would use open-collector drivers, which will appear as floating outputs when powered down. > the drive. This should prevent spurious drive head-loads, accidental > writes (even if you don't think you'll ever have a disk in the drive) > and other nicieites. Maybe. I don;t think it makes much difference. I have an external drive box on my PC/XT, which contains the hard drives (ST412-interface) and a couple of 3.5" floppies. In order to get the hard drives up to speed before the machine tries to boot from them, I always turn the drives on first, then the CPU box. And I have nevr had any problems doing that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 26 18:19:03 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 00:19:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <1161841017.6242.15.camel@linux.site> from "Warren Wolfe" at Oct 26, 6 01:36:57 am Message-ID: <m1GdEV9-000IyUC@p850ug1> > Maybe in a hundred years... when they are actual antiques. I know > the feeling, though. I've got an old Monroe (Litton) OC-8820, possibly > the finest CP/M machine ever made in one package. I saw one on eBay, I am not sure what you mean by 'in one package'. I personally think the Epson QX10 is one of the nicest CP/M machines ever, but that has a separate monitor and keyboard so it might not be 'one package'. I'm also partial to the RML380Z, but mainly becasue that was the first CP/M machine I used )at school).. And to be honest, CP/M was a let-down after the LDOS I used at home on my TRS-80 Model 1. [...] > Oh, by the way... This is my first post. (Just throw roses...) Welcome to the list! > I'm an oldie, and feeling at home already. Besides modern stuff, most > don't have all that much space. I'm a true expert in CP/M, and 8080 and ^^^^^^^^^^ I would be careful about saying things like that here. There are some very knowledgable people here (I am not one of them), and it's worth being very sure of your facts before starting a flamewar. > 6809 assembly language. Am currently looking for a repair manual for > the Monroe, as it has crapped out. I have *** ALL *** the software for Produce your own repair manual. I've done it (but not for that machine). It's not that hard to trace out schematics of a classic computer [1], it's then not too hard to interpret what they mean and what should be happening... In any case, you might not need a schematic. What does 'crapped out' mean? Have you checked the power supply outputs (at least the 5V line should be easy to find)? Is there a clock signal at the CPU? Are the buses doning anything? What about address lines on the DRAMs, RAS/CAS/etc? > it, both CP/M and that oddball Monroe Op/Sys. > > At the risk of being branded a heretic with my first post, I have to > say I'm a fan of the 2.8 megabyte DSL I have now, compared with the 110 > baud Teletype 33 KSR I first used... In computers more than any other > field, time improves the process. On the down side, I was secure in > that NOBODY knew any MORE than I did about an 8080 machine with CP/M. > There were quite a few people who knew AS MUCH, but nobody knew more. > It's not like that any more -- it's WAY more complicated, by several This is one reason I stick to the older machines. I understand them. I know what every last chip a PERQ CPU does. I can see the connections, hang my 'scope and logic analyser on them and sort it out. > orders of magnitude. Gone are the days when you can just whip up your > own O/S for a computer you designed and built, and have it compete. At Why? Nobody's stoping you using old chips, surely? > any rate, I'm glad to be here. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 26 18:51:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:51:14 -0700 Subject: 8" disk drives and modern PCs In-Reply-To: <m1GdEek-000IycC@p850ug1> References: <4540CC46.21562.2C90F016@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 26, 6 02:55:02 pm, <m1GdEek-000IycC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4540E782.28221.2CFB4FD2@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Oct 2006 at 0:28, Tony Duell wrote: > YEs, but any correctly-designed disk controller would use open-collector > drivers, which will appear as floating outputs when powered down. The OP asked if the sequencing might make a difference. Depending on design, it might--and powering the CPU then the drive appears to be safest. Perhaps I should have phrased it that way. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 26 19:17:18 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for the NCR PC4, PC6, PC8 Message-ID: <20061027001719.65071.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> please inform. Thanks. I do have 2 PC4's in *very* questionable condition if anyone is interested (for shipping). I'm primarily looking for the color version of the 4. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 19:22:33 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 13:22:33 +1300 Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <200610262248.k9QMmj7b024814@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <CA45571DE57E1C45BF3552118BA92C9D02909DF1@WDSCEXBECL03.sc.wdc.com> <200610262248.k9QMmj7b024814@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0610261722p295bc8acrdb63aaf75fd14b89@mail.gmail.com> On 10/27/06, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > > I was at work and needed an EBCDIC code, came across this. A useful link if > > you are using the old hardware and need a old code. > > > > http://www.lookuptables.com/ > > You mean you don't have how to create your own EBCDIC table memorized? I > memorized it over 16 years ago, and oddly enough I still remember it. I used to use EBCDIC on a regular basis when I made HASP/3780/SNA gear... now, I think I can only remember 'space' and the numbers.* -ethan * - for the uninitiated, the space char is the only char in common with ASCII, 0x20, and the numbers are 0xF0-0xF9 vs 0x30-0x39 for ASCII. From ygehrich at yahoo.com Thu Oct 26 19:26:29 2006 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:26:29 -0400 Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0610261722p295bc8acrdb63aaf75fd14b89@mail.gmail.co m> References: <CA45571DE57E1C45BF3552118BA92C9D02909DF1@WDSCEXBECL03.sc.wdc.com> <200610262248.k9QMmj7b024814@onyx.spiritone.com> <f4eb766f0610261722p295bc8acrdb63aaf75fd14b89@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061026202610.05d287e0@yahoo.com> At 08:22 PM 10/26/2006 Ethan Dicks wrote: >I used to use EBCDIC on a regular basis when I made HASP/3780/SNA >gear... now, I think I can only remember 'space' and the numbers.* Yes but do you remember good old BCD From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 26 19:28:04 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for the HP Vectra ('286) and Televideo Telecat Message-ID: <20061027002804.37749.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wizard at voyager.net Thu Oct 26 19:32:15 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:32:15 -0400 Subject: Yet Another Old Cyber-Coot In-Reply-To: <m1GdEV9-000IyUC@p850ug1> References: <m1GdEV9-000IyUC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <1161909135.22422.35.camel@linux.site> Subject was: Re: Craziest ebay price EVER On Fri, 2006-10-27 at 00:19 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Maybe in a hundred years... when they are actual antiques. I know > > the feeling, though. I've got an old Monroe (Litton) OC-8820, possibly > > the finest CP/M machine ever made in one package. I saw one on eBay, > > I am not sure what you mean by 'in one package'. I personally think the > Epson QX10 is one of the nicest CP/M machines ever, but that has a > separate monitor and keyboard so it might not be 'one package'. What I mean by "one package" is that the machine is a complete computer -- monitor and keyboard built in. One plug, one diskette, and you're off... My personal preference is for separates, in computers, hi-fi, video, and most other things where there is a choice. That allows one to get the best of <insert category here> and replace any item if a superior type shows up. The Monroe, however, had a screen of similar quality and "feel" to that of the Amdek 310-A. Very easy on the eyes. The keyboard was also of high quality, and the whole machine was ergonomically efficient for a built-together. Also, as in stereo equipment, MOST of the "one package" systems were substandard for their time, in my opinion. Not all, but most. > I'm also partial to the RML380Z, but mainly becasue that was the first > CP/M machine I used )at school).. And to be honest, CP/M was a let-down > after the LDOS I used at home on my TRS-80 Model 1. Perhaps... But CP/M was a hobbyist O/S that sort of became the industry standard. Cool, in a way. The closest thing to THAT today is Linux, and that's a tad bit complicated (and too good) for hacking it to be much use. > > Oh, by the way... This is my first post. (Just throw roses...) > > Welcome to the list! > > > I'm an oldie, and feeling at home already. Besides modern stuff, most > > > don't have all that much space. I'm a true expert in CP/M, and 8080 and > ^^^^^^^^^^ > I would be careful about saying things like that here. There are some > very knowledgable people here (I am not one of them), and it's worth > being very sure of your facts before starting a flamewar. Thanks for the welcome, and thanks for the advice. I know my limits. At one time (but no longer, I just checked) I had ALL the CP/M BDOS calls memorized, I used them so much. I'll grant you CP/M was a rather little pool, but I was a big fish in that pool. I'm adrift when it comes to Windows calls... and, I ended up USING quite a few O/S platforms over time, but never gained the skill in any of them I had in CP/M. Now it sounds like I should tell the kids to keep off my lawn after I talk about it. <Grin> It WAS nice to be the master of the world for a while... I try to avoid flame wars. I'm not always successful. They're pointless for the most part. I've heard it said that winning a flame war on the 'Net is like getting the Gold Medal in the Special Olympics. When all is said and done, it would be better to not be retarded in the first place. There's at least some truth to that. And, truth be told, it's clear that a lot of the people I've seen post in the last 24 hours obviously know a lot more than I do about quite a few things. That is as it should be. Normally, I'm the alpha geek wherever I am, so it's refreshing to think I'll be LEARNING things for a change. So far, it reminds me of the Aloha Computer Club back in the 70s... Everybody is knowledgeable, and some VERY much so, but all experienced in somewhat different areas. Seems like a friendly group, too. I'm a painfully honest person (I know, I know, liars say that, too) so I'll let people know when I don't know something. But, I have picked up quite a bit of knowledge since 1971, when I started out with computers by dialing in to an HP 2000B timeshare BASIC machine. It's odd, spotty knowledge, but, one never knows WHAT issue is coming up next... > > 6809 assembly language. Am currently looking for a repair manual for > > the Monroe, as it has crapped out. I have *** ALL *** the software for > > Produce your own repair manual. I've done it (but not for that machine). > It's not that hard to trace out schematics of a classic computer [1], > it's then not too hard to interpret what they mean and what should be > happening... Can I claim laziness as an excuse? I know what you mean, a friend of mine used to make repair manuals for obsolete, orphan, test equipment. I do recall how he used to smoke a cigarette, drink his coffee, and stare at circuit boards for hours on end, and how, occasionally, he would set down the coffee, stub out the cigarette, walk calmly outside, close the door, and primal scream into the night. He would then come back in, sigh, light another cigarette, take a sip of coffee, and go back to staring. I have reached a point in my life where I value my time and blood pressure more than the $50 bucks or so for an old manual. > In any case, you might not need a schematic. What does 'crapped out' > mean? Have you checked the power supply outputs (at least the 5V line > should be easy to find)? Is there a clock signal at the CPU? Are the > buses doning anything? What about address lines on the DRAMs, > RAS/CAS/etc? Symptom is no video. I don't have access to a 'scope any more, since the ex left mine out in the rain for me to pick up a couple years back. I'm not really desperate to get the Monroe running again, but I'd enjoy having a schematic and seeing if I can think my way through it... > > At the risk of being branded a heretic with my first post, I have to > > say I'm a fan of the 2.8 megabyte DSL I have now, compared with the 110 > > baud Teletype 33 KSR I first used... In computers more than any other > > field, time improves the process. On the down side, I was secure in > > that NOBODY knew any MORE than I did about an 8080 machine with CP/M. > > There were quite a few people who knew AS MUCH, but nobody knew more. > > It's not like that any more -- it's WAY more complicated, by several > > This is one reason I stick to the older machines. I understand them. I > know what every last chip a PERQ CPU does. I can see the connections, hang > my 'scope and logic analyser on them and sort it out. I hear you, brother. I know my IMSAI that way... but no other. I didn't put the Monroe together, and that's a handicap to understanding. I'm an NIST certified calibration technician, so I'm not intimidated by attacking a problem with only a 'scope and a schematic, but I don't have the familiarity with the Monroe I would with the IMSAI. There's something cool about that all-encompassing knowledge. > > orders of magnitude. Gone are the days when you can just whip up your > > own O/S for a computer you designed and built, and have it compete. At > > Why? Nobody's stoping you using old chips, surely? Oh, no, not at all. When I whipped up a computer, though, when I got done I had something better than most people owned. I can't do that now, unless you call buying a motherboard off the shelf, dropping a CPU into it, and plugging in the various cards "building a computer." I suppose it IS, technically, but not the way *I* mean it. Anything I could build now would draw comments like "Oh, isn't that cute" rather than "Oh, my God, that thing's a demon!" Not the same. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 19:36:57 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 13:36:57 +1300 Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20061026202610.05d287e0@yahoo.com> References: <CA45571DE57E1C45BF3552118BA92C9D02909DF1@WDSCEXBECL03.sc.wdc.com> <200610262248.k9QMmj7b024814@onyx.spiritone.com> <f4eb766f0610261722p295bc8acrdb63aaf75fd14b89@mail.gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20061026202610.05d287e0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0610261736l9001fe9ufc9c9bb1090109bc@mail.gmail.com> On 10/27/06, Gene Ehrich <ygehrich at yahoo.com> wrote: > At 08:22 PM 10/26/2006 Ethan Dicks wrote: > >I used to use EBCDIC on a regular basis when I made HASP/3780/SNA > >gear... now, I think I can only remember 'space' and the numbers.* > > Yes but do you remember good old BCD Considering I have a binary (BCD) clock above my desk and have built several more, I should like to think so. I just don't have to analyze SNA BIND sequences on demand anymore and have forgotten most of the EBCDIC I ever knew. -ethan From dj.taylor at starpower.net Thu Oct 26 19:43:46 2006 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:43:46 -0400 Subject: (no subject) QD21 ROM Upgrade In-Reply-To: <200610252250.k9PMo3xb030880@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200610252250.k9PMo3xb030880@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20061026204140.01bd4690@pop.starpower.net> At 06:50 PM 10/25/2006, you wrote: >Anyone have a rev. E or later ROM for an Emulex QD21? > >Thanks, > >De If you get it, I could use one too. I have a QD21 with Rev C I think and no formatting software. Can anyone tell us if upgrading the QD21 is as simple as putting the new ROM in? Doug From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 26 19:47:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 17:47:23 -0700 Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0610261722p295bc8acrdb63aaf75fd14b89@mail.gmail.com> References: <CA45571DE57E1C45BF3552118BA92C9D02909DF1@WDSCEXBECL03.sc.wdc.com>, <200610262248.k9QMmj7b024814@onyx.spiritone.com>, <f4eb766f0610261722p295bc8acrdb63aaf75fd14b89@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4540F4AB.7766.2D2EB70E@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Oct 2006 at 13:22, Ethan Dicks wrote: > * - for the uninitiated, the space char is the only char in common > with ASCII, 0x20, and the numbers are 0xF0-0xF9 vs 0x30-0x39 for > ASCII. Uh, Ethan? Space in EBCDIC is 0x40. And the letters are spaced the same way (according to card code) as they were in the old BCD code: C1-C9 "A' through "I" 12-1 through 12-9 D1-D9 "J" through "R" 11-1 through 11-9 E2-E9 "S" through "Z" 0-2 through 0-9 Which, as bizarre as it looks, made sense on a decimal machine like the 7080--with the exception of a one-position gap between R and S, the alpha characters were consecutive. On binary machines like the S/360, there were larger "holes". Punctuation is a lot harder to remember because the EBCDIC and BCD card codes were different for several common characters. About the only other thing I can recall is that 0-8-2 was a record mark in both systems. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 26 19:50:51 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 13:50:51 +1300 Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <4540F4AB.7766.2D2EB70E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <CA45571DE57E1C45BF3552118BA92C9D02909DF1@WDSCEXBECL03.sc.wdc.com> <200610262248.k9QMmj7b024814@onyx.spiritone.com> <f4eb766f0610261722p295bc8acrdb63aaf75fd14b89@mail.gmail.com> <4540F4AB.7766.2D2EB70E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0610261750v68cbc6d9se28894ab5f59b30f@mail.gmail.com> On 10/27/06, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > On 27 Oct 2006 at 13:22, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > * - for the uninitiated, the space char is the only char in common > > with ASCII, 0x20, and the numbers are 0xF0-0xF9 vs 0x30-0x39 for > > ASCII. > > Uh, Ethan? Space in EBCDIC is 0x40. Whoops... I remember less than I thought I did. -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Oct 26 20:15:19 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 21:15:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <4540F4AB.7766.2D2EB70E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <CA45571DE57E1C45BF3552118BA92C9D02909DF1@WDSCEXBECL03.sc.wdc.com>, <200610262248.k9QMmj7b024814@onyx.spiritone.com>, <f4eb766f0610261722p295bc8acrdb63aaf75fd14b89@mail.gmail.com> <4540F4AB.7766.2D2EB70E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200610270117.VAA26774@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > C1-C9 "A' through "I" 12-1 through 12-9 > D1-D9 "J" through "R" 11-1 through 11-9 > E2-E9 "S" through "Z" 0-2 through 0-9 > Which, as bizarre as it looks, made sense on a decimal machine like > the 7080--with the exception of a one-position gap between R and S, > the alpha characters were consecutive. Ummm...what about D0? Isn't that a hole between I and J? And isn't the gap between R and S two-position, because of E0? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 26 22:06:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 20:06:29 -0700 Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <200610270117.VAA26774@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <CA45571DE57E1C45BF3552118BA92C9D02909DF1@WDSCEXBECL03.sc.wdc.com>, <4540F4AB.7766.2D2EB70E@cclist.sydex.com>, <200610270117.VAA26774@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45411545.3733.2DAE0E78@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Oct 2006 at 21:15, der Mouse wrote: > Ummm...what about D0? Isn't that a hole between I and J? And isn't > the gap between R and S two-position, because of E0? You're right., it's been a long day! None of the letters uses the 0 punch, except as a zone punch. You can see how BCD and EBCDIC codes line up with punch codes and why the strange gaps in the alpha sequence are present: http://homepages.cwi.nl/~dik/english/codes/80col.html Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Oct 26 22:36:27 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 23:36:27 -0400 Subject: CD-ROM archiving In-Reply-To: <200610262035.QAA24623@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061026133448.053624a0@mail.30below.com> <454100BF.8060805@yahoo.co.uk> <200610262035.QAA24623@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200610262336.27602.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 26 October 2006 16:34, der Mouse wrote: > > 'swab' can be handy too (why isn't it 'swap'? Short for 'swap bytes' > > maybe?) > > My guess would be yes - from the PDP-11 opcode for byte-swapping a > 16-bit value, SWAB. > > Now if only it had another option to swap the halves of 32-bit > quantities.... SWAW? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Oct 26 22:48:20 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:48:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: HP boards? eBay # 160042744617 Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0610262245580.11237@host10.invalid.domain> Just saw these listed as "gold scrap", not sure if they are indeed HP boards, but thought I'd pass it along. Looks like only about an hour and a half to go on them, unfortunately. -Toth From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Oct 26 22:40:01 2006 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 23:40:01 -0400 Subject: 8" disk drives and modern PCs In-Reply-To: <4540E782.28221.2CFB4FD2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4540CC46.21562.2C90F016@cclist.sydex.com> <m1GdEek-000IycC@p850ug1> <4540E782.28221.2CFB4FD2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200610262340.01556.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 26 October 2006 19:51, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 27 Oct 2006 at 0:28, Tony Duell wrote: > > YEs, but any correctly-designed disk controller would use open-collector > > drivers, which will appear as floating outputs when powered down. > > The OP asked if the sequencing might make a difference. Depending on > design, it might--and powering the CPU then the drive appears to be > safest. Perhaps I should have phrased it that way. Of the two setups I have which use an external HD interfaced to a CP/M box, my recollection is that it was done the other way around, you'd power up the drive box first and shut it down last. Not sure why that was, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From sdc695 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 26 17:35:17 2006 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 15:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intel MDS and Mohawk Message-ID: <20061026223517.74587.qmail@web60814.mail.yahoo.com> Scribed by "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>: > I was going over some old 8" Intel diskettes and discovered some that > have the legend "MDS is a registered trademark of Mohawk Data Science > Corporation" > > Does anyone remember when Intel started adding the asterisked text to > "MDS"? > > Cheers, > Chuck All I know is some history: Mohawk Data Sciences did all sorts of things in the 60's and 70's. Their main "claim to fame" was a key-to-tape machine that was to replace keypunches (remember 029 keypunches) with something more "modern". They did find some place, but I never used one. On the other hand I was (un)fortunate to interface a Mohawk printer (a model 4330 to be exact) to a larger computer (A Xerox Sigma 5) and it had (still has on the case) a nice MDS logo. I suspect that Intel started using MDS as a marketing term and the lawyers from Mohawk made a nice call on the phone. Another observation: Later Xerox Sigma CPUs had a sticker (inside the control panel door) indicating that the term "Sigma" was used under license from some corporation (Sigma Relays?). They probably got a lawyer call as well. Sometimes these things take a while (years), but eventually it all works out. A recent (very bad) example was a guy called Mike Rowe (I think) who wanted to sell software on the web. He got a "nastygram" from the guys in Redmond who didn't appreciate it too much. I'm sure you can search for the end result. Note to wise: If you think you have a trademark, do a little search. It might save some real money at a later date. -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Oct 27 02:08:44 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:08:44 +0200 Subject: DEC spare parts In-Reply-To: <20061026091232.47480.qmail@web61114.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE08488079@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hello William, I read your post yesterday, but did not reply as I expect that you will get *many* replies. This morning I re-read your message and thought "Well, if I don't try I will sure not get lucky" :-) So, I give it a try and send an e-mail ... I am sure you will get plenty interest for the SCSI stuff, but to maintain my collection (see www.pdp-11.nl ) I would love to get the following boards: > 3. PDP-11/34 UNIBUS board sets: > > M7891 (set of 2) > M8265/M8266 > M7485/M7486 > Emulex SC12 disk controller > Emulex TC13 tape coupler I would be very glad with the M7891, M8265/66 and the TC13. I do not have any use for the SC12, because I do not have disks for it. The SDI board set (M7485/M7486) is already as spares stored in the attic, but if you do not have takers for these, I will take them and store them in a safe warm place (the attic). It is of course logical that I will compensate your effort and shipping costs! I live in The Netherlands ... have a nice weekend, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Oct 27 02:10:16 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 09:10:16 +0200 Subject: DEC spare parts In-Reply-To: <20061026091232.47480.qmail@web61114.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848807A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Darn, clicked "Send" to quick. Sorry, should have been off-list ... This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 27 03:03:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 01:03:11 -0700 Subject: Intel MDS and Mohawk In-Reply-To: <20061026223517.74587.qmail@web60814.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061026223517.74587.qmail@web60814.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45415ACF.32555.2EBDAF7D@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Oct 2006 at 15:35, Tom Watson wrote: > Note to wise: If you think you have a trademark, do a little search. It might > save some real money at a later date. ...and sometimes it doesn't do any good at all. IIRC, Victor (of the Victor 9000) sued someone who'd been doing business as Victor Electronics for at least a decade. As far as Mohawk, it's an interesting and very tangled story as near as I can determine. In 1986, Momentum Technologies purchased the Herkimer (NY) division of Mohawk and merged with Onset Corporation in 1988. Somehow, Onset became the property of DecisionOne. (aka Decision Data Corp) But that was the Herkimer division. The west coast computer operation in Hayward became Qantel and is still in business (although I suspect that there's at least a chapter 11 in there somewhere). See: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0DE0DD133EF935A35756C 0A960948260 http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0DEED9143AF934A35754C 0A960948260 I recall in the 70's, a couple of CDC co-workers going to work for the Los Gatos operation of Mohawk, but I never learned what they did there. For what it's worth (or not), Chuck From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Oct 27 07:53:50 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fabio Message-ID: <20061027125350.BE84858225@mail.wordstock.com> http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/fabio-on-technology-a-brief-interview-210458.php Fabio is an Amiga fan *and* a nerd... Cheers, Bryan From hadsell at blueskystudios.com Fri Oct 27 09:08:02 2006 From: hadsell at blueskystudios.com (Richard Hadsell) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:08:02 -0400 Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0610261750v68cbc6d9se28894ab5f59b30f@mail.gmail.com> References: <CA45571DE57E1C45BF3552118BA92C9D02909DF1@WDSCEXBECL03.sc.wdc.com> <200610262248.k9QMmj7b024814@onyx.spiritone.com> <f4eb766f0610261722p295bc8acrdb63aaf75fd14b89@mail.gmail.com> <4540F4AB.7766.2D2EB70E@cclist.sydex.com> <f4eb766f0610261750v68cbc6d9se28894ab5f59b30f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <454212C2.6060302@blueskystudios.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 10/27/06, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > >> On 27 Oct 2006 at 13:22, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> > * - for the uninitiated, the space char is the only char in common >> > with ASCII, 0x20, and the numbers are 0xF0-0xF9 vs 0x30-0x39 for >> > ASCII. >> >> Uh, Ethan? Space in EBCDIC is 0x40. > > Whoops... I remember less than I thought I did. The thing to remember was that Space was 0x40 in EBCDIC (hex) and 040 in ASCII (octal). -- Dick Hadsell 914-259-6320 Fax: 914-259-6499 Reply-to: hadsell at blueskystudios.com Blue Sky Studios http://www.blueskystudios.com 44 South Broadway, White Plains, NY 10601 From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 27 09:27:05 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 07:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fabio In-Reply-To: <20061027125350.BE84858225@mail.wordstock.com> from Bryan Pope at "Oct 27, 6 08:53:50 am" Message-ID: <200610271427.k9RER50k024202@floodgap.com> > http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/fabio-on-technology-a-brief-interview-210458.php > > Fabio is an Amiga fan *and* a nerd... That. Is. Crazy. The man can solder. That's the part I can't get over. I guess, like Leslie Nielsen, he figured out the best way to make a lot of money is to act stupid and then do your own thing when you're not on the clock. :) Someone said he was an electrical engineer before he started demonstrating the magic of pectoral implants, so I do assign him points for keeping up with his prior career. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Morning-After Pill Decision Delayed ------------------------- From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 27 10:25:24 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:25:24 -0500 Subject: RX02 controller? Message-ID: <001101c6f9dc$232e5c40$6700a8c0@BILLING> Apparently now that I actually need them, I can't find any of my RX02 controllers. Anyone have a spare RX211? Board is M8256, for a unibus box. If you do have one available I'd be happy to trade for it or pay reasonable sums of cash. Thanks! Jay West From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 11:10:24 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:10:24 -0400 Subject: looking for SCSI cable, angled CN50M to HD50M Message-ID: <ddc584f50610270910r54acd6b2l92899f98a41acd29@mail.gmail.com> Centronics 50 pin male to HD50 male (lock, not screw). Pay from paypal $10 shipping included, thank you! vax. 9000 From charlesmorris at hughes.net Fri Oct 27 12:23:13 2006 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (charlesmorris at hughes.net) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:23:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Waduzitdo? Message-ID: <4564412.1161969793008.JavaMail.?@fh094.dia.cp.net> Does anyone have a copy, or preferably a scan, of the Byte article c. 1976 entitled "WADUZITDO"? (It's an interpreted "high-level" language so named by the author since everyone looked at his Altair or IMSAI sitting there and asked, "So what does it do"?) There were two versions (for 6800 and 8080) each of which occupied a whopping 256 bytes! I recall toggling it into my homebrew 8080 machine back in '79 and it actually worked and ran simple programs as promised. I can't find the funny-smelling "wet" photocopy I made at the Computer Science Center at U. of Md., last seen 25 years ago... thanks Charles From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Oct 27 12:34:40 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:34:40 +0100 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <200610270641.k9R6ev2E048256@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200610270641.k9R6ev2E048256@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <0524CD87-A35F-4C65-A488-ACFFF330A8CF@microspot.co.uk> On 27 Oct, 2006, at 07:41, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > It's not that hard to trace out schematics of a classic computer [1], Not all classic computers are micros. Fancy tracing the schematic for my 500 square foot second generation mainframe? Fortunately I have most of them, along with the 'address book' which lists every logic signal, its sources (think wire-OR) and destinations. Its on roughly A3 paper and is in two volumes four inches thick. Welcome to the new chap. BCD is not just a bit coding, its a card code as well. It lacks things like parentheses and brackets but has things like 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4. My 1301 uses it, though strangely there is not a one to one mapping from characters from the card reader to characters on the line printer! The old Friden Flexowriters used a similar code too, though they seem to have varied too. The old Elliott 920 code was different from the code used by my own Flexowriter (which could punch and read 8 paper tape, or using the same mechanism, along the edge of a punched card size medium which I think could be fan-folded. I guess this allowed the operator to write on the rest of the card). Roger Holmes (Who has at home what might be a collection of the largest computers in private ownership - unless you know different as Esther Rantzen used to say on "That's Life"). From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 13:01:44 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 14:01:44 -0400 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <0524CD87-A35F-4C65-A488-ACFFF330A8CF@microspot.co.uk> References: <200610270641.k9R6ev2E048256@dewey.classiccmp.org> <0524CD87-A35F-4C65-A488-ACFFF330A8CF@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <e1d20d630610271101l6781b7feia2e76b164c2cb168@mail.gmail.com> > (Who has at home what might be a collection of the largest > computers in private ownership - unless you know different > as Esther Rantzen used to say on "That's Life"). That is a dangerous claim to make. Paul Pierce would be laughing. -- Will From evan at snarc.net Fri Oct 27 13:34:31 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 14:34:31 -0400 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <e1d20d630610271101l6781b7feia2e76b164c2cb168@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000f01c6f9f6$8ca5e070$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> If he meant physically largest, then I know a guy here in New Jersey who has a Burroughs mainframe which requires an 18-wheeler truck (or two) to move. And let's not forget Indiana's Jim Curry who has a vast collect of Cray supercomputers. I have an impressive collection of the * smallest * computers. :) -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli [mailto:wdonzelli at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 2:02 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Craziest ebay price EVER > (Who has at home what might be a collection of the largest computers > in private ownership - unless you know different as Esther Rantzen > used to say on "That's Life"). That is a dangerous claim to make. Paul Pierce would be laughing. -- Will From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Oct 27 14:18:37 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Waduzitdo? In-Reply-To: <4564412.1161969793008.JavaMail.?@fh094.dia.cp.net> from "charlesmorris@hughes.net" at "Oct 27, 6 05:23:13 pm" Message-ID: <200610271918.k9RJIbwo011544@floodgap.com> > Does anyone have a copy, or preferably a scan, of the Byte article c. > 1976 entitled "WADUZITDO"? (It's an interpreted "high-level" language > so named by the author since everyone looked at his Altair or IMSAI > sitting there and asked, "So what does it do"?) Not to belabour the point, but what does WADUZITDO, er, do? What does the language look like? Is it this? http://www.geocities.com/connorbd/tarpit/waduzitdo/wdzref.html -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Babylon 5, "Deathwalker" ---------- From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 27 14:21:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:21:19 -0700 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <0524CD87-A35F-4C65-A488-ACFFF330A8CF@microspot.co.uk> References: <200610270641.k9R6ev2E048256@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <0524CD87-A35F-4C65-A488-ACFFF330A8CF@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4541F9BF.1707.312A8E92@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Oct 2006 at 18:34, Roger Holmes wrote: > BCD is not just a bit coding, its a card code as well. It lacks things > like parentheses and brackets but has things like 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4. > My 1301 uses it, though strangely there is not a one to one mapping > from characters from the card reader to characters on the line > printer! Was it Edgars Dijkstra who railed on at length about the 1620 being able to read characters from cards that it couldn't detect the presence of nor print? An example is the character ',' read from the punch numerically (0-8-3). Deposited as 821 and tests as a record mark, but a record mark is 82. No way to generate 821 nor distinguish it from 82. And no way to print or punch it numerically. If you can't tell, I have a soft spot in my heart for the lowly Cadet (Can't Add; Doesn't Even Try). :) Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 15:07:20 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 16:07:20 -0400 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <000f01c6f9f6$8ca5e070$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000f01c6f9f6$8ca5e070$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <454266F8.7040203@gmail.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > If he meant physically largest, then I know a guy here in New Jersey who has > a Burroughs mainframe which requires an 18-wheeler truck (or two) to move. I have a machine which fits that description too. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 27 18:08:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 00:08:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Yet Another Old Cyber-Coot In-Reply-To: <1161909135.22422.35.camel@linux.site> from "Warren Wolfe" at Oct 26, 6 08:32:15 pm Message-ID: <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC@p850ug1> > > > > I am not sure what you mean by 'in one package'. I personally think the > > Epson QX10 is one of the nicest CP/M machines ever, but that has a > > separate monitor and keyboard so it might not be 'one package'. > > > What I mean by "one package" is that the machine is a complete > computer -- monitor and keyboard built in. One plug, one diskette, and > you're off... My personal preference is for separates, in computers, Well, the Epson QX10 meets the second of those criteria. It's 3 units (processor box, keyboard, monitor), but there's only one mains cable (the monitor, and obviously the keyboard [1] take power from the PSU in the processor box). [1] Although I do have a keyboard from a Ramtek graphics unit which does have it's own internal mains PSU. > > I'm also partial to the RML380Z, but mainly becasue that was the first > > CP/M machine I used )at school).. And to be honest, CP/M was a let-down > > after the LDOS I used at home on my TRS-80 Model 1. > > > Perhaps... But CP/M was a hobbyist O/S that sort of became the > industry standard. Cool, in a way. The closest thing to THAT today is > Linux, and that's a tad bit complicated (and too good) for hacking it to > be much use. I've always thought the analogy is between CP/M and MSDOS (and not because of the obvious technical similarities). Both are pretty minimal OSes, both became industry standards, and in both cases there were often better choices available. > And, truth be told, it's clear that a lot of the people I've seen > post in the last 24 hours obviously know a lot more than I do about > quite a few things. That is as it should be. Normally, I'm the alpha > geek wherever I am, so it's refreshing to think I'll be LEARNING things > for a change. So far, it reminds me of the Aloha Computer Club back in > the 70s... Everybody is knowledgeable, and some VERY much so, but all > experienced in somewhat different areas. Seems like a friendly group, > too. I'm a painfully honest person (I know, I know, liars say that, > too) so I'll let people know when I don't know something. But, I have I think you are going to fit in here. I certainly consider that the day I stop learning is the day I die. And I think everyone here is basically very honset (certainly all the classic computer collectors I've met face to face are). > picked up quite a bit of knowledge since 1971, when I started out with > computers by dialing in to an HP 2000B timeshare BASIC machine. It's > odd, spotty knowledge, but, one never knows WHAT issue is coming up > next... > > > > > > 6809 assembly language. Am currently looking for a repair manual for > > > the Monroe, as it has crapped out. I have *** ALL *** the software for > > > > Produce your own repair manual. I've done it (but not for that machine). > > It's not that hard to trace out schematics of a classic computer [1], > > it's then not too hard to interpret what they mean and what should be > > happening... > > > Can I claim laziness as an excuse? I know what you mean, a friend Of course... > of mine used to make repair manuals for obsolete, orphan, test > equipment. I do recall how he used to smoke a cigarette, drink his > coffee, and stare at circuit boards for hours on end, and how, > occasionally, he would set down the coffee, stub out the cigarette, walk > calmly outside, close the door, and primal scream into the night. He > would then come back in, sigh, light another cigarette, take a sip of > coffee, and go back to staring. I have reached a point in my life where > I value my time and blood pressure more than the $50 bucks or so for an > old manual. Oh, I buy manuals when they are available, but sometimes they aren't. For example, one of my intersts is HP desktop computers. AFAIK most of them never had real service manuals, only what I call 'boardswapper guides'. The same applies ot the PERQ AGW3300. Or the Torch XXX. In all cases I have (or at least I've seen) the official service manual, but it doesn't contain schematics. So I've had to sit down for a few days/weeks/montsh and trace out schematics. And there's a lot more to producing a schematic than just noting down what connects where. A good shcematic is drawn in such a way that it's obvious what a circuit does (an obvious example of this would be a pair of cross-coupled NAND gats as an SR flip-flop. You don't want to draw it with one on one page and the other on a different page, even if you give the signals sensible names. Come back to that <n> months later and you won't spot it's a flip-flop!). > > > > > In any case, you might not need a schematic. What does 'crapped out' > > mean? Have you checked the power supply outputs (at least the 5V line > > should be easy to find)? Is there a clock signal at the CPU? Are the > > buses doning anything? What about address lines on the DRAMs, > > RAS/CAS/etc? > > > Symptom is no video. I don't have access to a 'scope any more, So the fualt could be just about anywhere. PSU, video circuit, CPU (not intialising the video controller), monitor circuit, CRT, etc. I know nothing about this machine, but you could at least (given a multimeter) check the 5V line. And maybe see if there are any voltages on the CRT electrodes (which would indicate the horizontal output stage is runniog). Given a logic probe or 'scope you could do a lot more. > > This is one reason I stick to the older machines. I understand them. I > > know what every last chip a PERQ CPU does. I can see the connections, hang > > my 'scope and logic analyser on them and sort it out. > > > I hear you, brother. I know my IMSAI that way... but no other. I > didn't put the Monroe together, and that's a handicap to understanding. Well, I didn't design or build the PERQ either. Or any of the other classics I've had to repair over the years... While I like to have schematics, I have fixed many machines without them. The most recent was an HP9816 that I picked up on E-bay. For those who don't know this machine, it's a 9" monitor with a 68000-based computer hidden inside. Physcially the layout is : Large PCB at the bottom containing the CPU, 256K RAM, boot ROM, HPIB interface, RS232 interface, keyboard interface, etc This plugs into a small backplane which carries 2 DIO slots (standard HP9000/200 series expansion slots) Also plugging into the backplane is a PCB above the expansion slots which carries the monitor analogue circuity, +/-12V regulators and the mains connector/switch/fuse (!). Also on this PCB are 2 more connectors for : Test (alpha) video PCB. A 6845 + RAM + a fair bit of TTL and Graphics PCB (DRAM + TTL) There's a SMPSU mounted inside the case which connects by cables to the monitor board. Anyway, when I got it, it didn't work (this was declared in the E-bay listing, I am not moaning). It gave an error message 'Alpha video failure, RAM error, address = <nnn> W=<nnnnnn> R=<nnnnnn>' Well, I had no documetnation at all, but the 9836 boardswapper guide (over on http://www.hpmuseum.net/) told me that address was in the text video RAM area. So it was likely all the errors refered to one problem. Assuming 'W' mandt the value that had been written and 'R' was the value read back, it appeared that bit 11 (IIRC) of the RAM had failed. So I took the machine apart. It was obvious there were 2 2K RAM chips (6116-like) on the text PCB. I traced data bit 11 from the DIO slot (which I had a pinout of) across the monitor PCB to the text video PCB connecotr. Then on that board, I traced it through a buffer chip to a data pin on one of the RAMs. Decoldered that RAM and put in a new one from the junk box. And yes, the machine worked. I'd only had it for 12 hours... > I'm an NIST certified calibration technician, so I'm not intimidated by FWIW I have no qualifications at all in electronics or computing. > Oh, no, not at all. When I whipped up a computer, though, when I > got done I had something better than most people owned. I can't do that > now, unless you call buying a motherboard off the shelf, dropping a CPU > into it, and plugging in the various cards "building a computer." I I call that 'assembling a computer' To me 'building' implies starting from simpler components and using a soldering iron or wire-wrap tool. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 27 18:24:24 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 00:24:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <0524CD87-A35F-4C65-A488-ACFFF330A8CF@microspot.co.uk> from "Roger Holmes" at Oct 27, 6 06:34:40 pm Message-ID: <m1Gdb3v-000IydC@p850ug1> > > > On 27 Oct, 2006, at 07:41, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > It's not that hard to trace out schematics of a classic computer [1], > > Not all classic computers are micros. Fancy tracing the schematic for You think I don't realise that... > my 500 square foot second generation mainframe? Fortunately I > have most of them, along with the 'address book' which lists every > logic signal, its sources (think wire-OR) and destinations. Its on > roughly A3 paper and is in two volumes four inches thick. Ah, right... Actually, given enough time ) would _love_ to trace out something that complicared (in my experience, time taken to trace the schematic goes roughly as the square of the number of component-pins [1]). [1] Although there are many other factors. A known 'big chip' like a microprocessor speeds things up a lot. A big board of TTL, or worse still just discrete transistors, slows things down. The reason is that a micro can be used in essentially one way, it will indentify the data and address buses (OK, maybe then buffered, but you can find those buffers and thus the buses inthe rest of the machine). A NAND gate can be used for dozens of different things. And a transistor even more. That's why sorting out the HP9100B took so long. -tony From wizard at voyager.net Fri Oct 27 20:20:33 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:20:33 -0400 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC@p850ug1> References: <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <1161998433.26404.62.camel@linux.site> Subject formerly: Re: Yet Another Old Cyber-Coot On Sat, 2006-10-28 at 00:08 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > I've always thought the analogy is between CP/M and MSDOS (and not > because of the obvious technical similarities). Both are pretty minimal > OSes, both became industry standards, and in both cases there were often > better choices available. [In the interests of avoiding problems, the following is a composite of several coherent and consistent stories I got from several people who were involved. This is how I understand events to have taken place, and, therefore, constitutes my singular opinion of events as they occurred. No claim of ultimate accuracy should be implied or assumed. That should keep the wolves at bay...] It's not at ALL surprising that MSDOS resembled CP/M. The first version of MSDOS, called simply DOS, was actually a hot copy of CP/M for 8080 that had been run through a program, XLAT, (often called X-LAX by those who had to clean up its output) that translated it from 8080 to 8086 mnemonics. It was produced by Seattle Computer Products (SCP) for its combo 8080/8086 CPU board, from a commercial program of questionable legality which "disassembled" the CP/M code running in your machine when you ran it. (I forget the name. Anybody remember this?) It took the crappy code (in this case code generated by the PL/M compiler, and made commented assembly language source. The folks at Seattle Computer Products got this disassembler, ran it, took the output of that, and ran it into XLAT, and voila! CP/M for the 8086. It was changed so that one could take the various three-letter CP/M commands, and spell them out, and they would work. Also, in an apparent attempt to avoid being sued by Digital Research, they kept "ERASE" as an expanded command, but it only worked, in abbreviated form, as "DEL". Apparently that was sufficient, as nobody got sued. Bill Gates then bought out SCP -- I'm unclear if it was the whole company or just the O/S product, and a legend was born. They went to work, and started cleaning up their copy, and DOS for PC was born. And, if not for a significant error by Gary Kildall, creator of CP/M, it might well have been Digital Research Inc, in the place of MicroSoft. What a different world we would live in, eh? Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From legalize at xmission.com Fri Oct 27 20:23:18 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:23:18 -0600 Subject: Ramtek (was: Yet Another Old Cyber-Coot) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 28 Oct 2006 00:08:13 +0100. <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <E1Gdcus-0007nS-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC at p850ug1>, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > [1] Although I do have a keyboard from a Ramtek graphics unit which does > have it's own internal mains PSU. Speaking of Ramtek, what sort of Ramtek gear does anyone/everyone have? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 27 20:44:55 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 18:44:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <1161998433.26404.62.camel@linux.site> References: <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC@p850ug1> <1161998433.26404.62.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <20061027182951.Q65844@shell.lmi.net> Everybody who was around had hold of different pieces of that elephant. On Fri, 27 Oct 2006, Warren Wolfe wrote: > [In the interests of avoiding problems, the following is a composite > of several coherent and consistent stories I got from several people who > were involved. This is how I understand events to have taken place, > and, therefore, constitutes my singular opinion of events as they > occurred. No claim of ultimate accuracy should be implied or assumed. > That should keep the wolves at bay...] > > It's not at ALL surprising that MSDOS resembled CP/M. The first > version of MSDOS, called simply DOS, was actually a hot copy of CP/M for QDOS, followed by 86-DOS and SCP-DOS > 8080 that had been run through a program, XLAT, (often called X-LAX by > those who had to clean up its output) that translated it from 8080 to > 8086 mnemonics. It was produced by Seattle Computer Products (SCP) for > its combo 8080/8086 CPU board, from a commercial program of questionable > legality which "disassembled" the CP/M code running in your machine when > you ran it. (I forget the name. Anybody remember this?) It took the > crappy code (in this case code generated by the PL/M compiler, and made > commented assembly language source. > The folks at Seattle Computer Products got this disassembler, ran > it, took the output of that, and ran it into XLAT, and voila! CP/M for > the 8086. It was changed so that one could take the various > three-letter CP/M commands, and spell them out, and they would work. > Also, in an apparent attempt to avoid being sued by Digital Research, > they kept "ERASE" as an expanded command, but it only worked, in > abbreviated form, as "DEL". Tim Patterson never denied that QDOS ("Quick and Dirty OS") was based closely on CP/M. Most structures were deliberately kept compatible. However, he liked the idea of a linked list of blocks, as used at that time in the Microsoft "Stand-Alone BASIC" used on some NEC machines, and quite similar to the OS MS wrote for the RS Coco. > Apparently that was sufficient, as nobody > got sued. Bill Gates then bought out SCP -- I'm unclear if it was the > whole company or just the O/S product, and a legend was born. just the OS. and both Tim Patterson ("Falcon Tech"?) and SCP retained rights to use and market the OS! Much later (1987?) when SCP was on the rocks, a number of biggies, reputedly including AT&T were very interested in the asset of a royalty free license. MS sued, but then they settled out of court by MS buying SCP. (MUCH cheaper than the lawsuit would have been!) > They went > to work, and started cleaning up their copy, and DOS for PC was born. > And, if not for a significant error by Gary Kildall, creator of CP/M, it > might well have been Digital Research Inc, in the place of MicroSoft. > What a different world we would live in, eh? If not for the SPECIFIC incident, (Gary flying up to Oakland for the day when IBM was scheduled to meet), DRI (once "Intergalctic Digital Research"!) would still have lost it - there was an extreme level of culture clash. IBM, with their dress code, etc.) was SHOCKED at what they saw in Pacific Grove. And (UNCOFIRMED), when the staff at DRI first saw the IBM people arriving, they thought it was a drug raid. After his death, friends of Gary claimed that the flight to Oakland was essential and necessary! (Nobody else in the company could have handled delivering some manuals to Godbout at the Oakland airport.) It would, indeed, have been a different world! Although the PC 5150 was released with MS-DOS (8/1981), IBM agreed to also sell CP/M-86, as a concession to DRI's objections to copyright violations. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From jim.isbell at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 20:57:27 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 20:57:27 -0500 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <20061027182951.Q65844@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC@p850ug1> <1161998433.26404.62.camel@linux.site> <20061027182951.Q65844@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <b0295dbe0610271857x7b347223q4cdc0696fa94fd09@mail.gmail.com> OK, where did TRSDOS fit in? It was before MSDOS as far as sale to the public. On 10/27/06, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: > Everybody who was around had hold of different pieces of that elephant. > > On Fri, 27 Oct 2006, Warren Wolfe wrote: > > [In the interests of avoiding problems, the following is a composite > > of several coherent and consistent stories I got from several people who > > were involved. This is how I understand events to have taken place, > > and, therefore, constitutes my singular opinion of events as they > > occurred. No claim of ultimate accuracy should be implied or assumed. > > That should keep the wolves at bay...] > > > > It's not at ALL surprising that MSDOS resembled CP/M. The first > > version of MSDOS, called simply DOS, was actually a hot copy of CP/M for > QDOS, followed by 86-DOS and SCP-DOS > > 8080 that had been run through a program, XLAT, (often called X-LAX by > > those who had to clean up its output) that translated it from 8080 to > > 8086 mnemonics. It was produced by Seattle Computer Products (SCP) for > > its combo 8080/8086 CPU board, from a commercial program of questionable > > legality which "disassembled" the CP/M code running in your machine when > > you ran it. (I forget the name. Anybody remember this?) It took the > > crappy code (in this case code generated by the PL/M compiler, and made > > commented assembly language source. > > The folks at Seattle Computer Products got this disassembler, ran > > it, took the output of that, and ran it into XLAT, and voila! CP/M for > > the 8086. It was changed so that one could take the various > > three-letter CP/M commands, and spell them out, and they would work. > > Also, in an apparent attempt to avoid being sued by Digital Research, > > they kept "ERASE" as an expanded command, but it only worked, in > > abbreviated form, as "DEL". > > Tim Patterson never denied that QDOS ("Quick and Dirty OS") was based > closely on CP/M. Most structures were deliberately kept compatible. > However, he liked the idea of a linked list of blocks, as used at that > time in the Microsoft "Stand-Alone BASIC" used on some NEC machines, and > quite similar to the OS MS wrote for the RS Coco. > > > Apparently that was sufficient, as nobody > > got sued. Bill Gates then bought out SCP -- I'm unclear if it was the > > whole company or just the O/S product, and a legend was born. > just the OS. > and both Tim Patterson ("Falcon Tech"?) and SCP retained rights to use and > market the OS! > Much later (1987?) when SCP was on the rocks, a number of biggies, > reputedly including AT&T were very interested in the asset of a royalty > free license. MS sued, but then they settled out of court by MS buying > SCP. (MUCH cheaper than the lawsuit would have been!) > > > They went > > to work, and started cleaning up their copy, and DOS for PC was born. > > And, if not for a significant error by Gary Kildall, creator of CP/M, it > > might well have been Digital Research Inc, in the place of MicroSoft. > > What a different world we would live in, eh? > > If not for the SPECIFIC incident, (Gary flying up to Oakland for the day > when IBM was scheduled to meet), DRI (once "Intergalctic Digital > Research"!) would still have lost it - there was an extreme level of > culture clash. IBM, with their dress code, etc.) was SHOCKED at what they > saw in Pacific Grove. And (UNCOFIRMED), when the staff at DRI first saw > the IBM people arriving, they thought it was a drug raid. > > After his death, friends of Gary claimed that the flight to Oakland was > essential and necessary! (Nobody else in the company could have handled > delivering some manuals to Godbout at the Oakland airport.) > > It would, indeed, have been a different world! > > > Although the PC 5150 was released with MS-DOS (8/1981), IBM agreed to also > sell CP/M-86, as a concession to DRI's objections to copyright violations. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From wizard at voyager.net Fri Oct 27 21:16:52 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 22:16:52 -0400 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <b0295dbe0610271857x7b347223q4cdc0696fa94fd09@mail.gmail.com> References: <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC@p850ug1> <1161998433.26404.62.camel@linux.site> <20061027182951.Q65844@shell.lmi.net> <b0295dbe0610271857x7b347223q4cdc0696fa94fd09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1162001812.26404.69.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-10-27 at 20:57 -0500, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > OK, where did TRSDOS fit in? It was before MSDOS as far as sale to the public. It was its own universe, Jim. The links and questionable parentage of the original version of DOS are tied directly to CP/M, which was the first O/S for personal computers that any significant number of businesses embraced. And, Windows came out of the DOS world, and now dominates as few products have dominated before. (Note: I am NOT claiming this is a GOOD thing.) From what I can tell, TRSDOS was not a rip-off of anyone's software, and nobody bothered to rip it off, so it's pretty much out of the world of O/S scandal. It actually was pretty decent, and had a few ideas of merit that didn't make it into the mainstream world for a while. It was just totally tied to Radio Shack computing, and suffered a mortal wound when IBM came out with their PC. No fault of its own. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 21:15:14 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 15:15:14 +1300 Subject: Looking for details on battery-backup ECO for IOB-6120 Message-ID: <f4eb766f0610271915m7658a8e0oa1065a1d790dd01e@mail.gmail.com> Hi, all, I've posted on the Spare Time Gizmos Yahoo Group, and I've written Jim Kearney twice and no responses yet - I have a couple of IOB-6120s that, due to the nature of the ECOs, I haven't yet installed SRAM on. I'm having problems with the fix between the 74ACT138 and the BQ2201 - what instructions I do have say to lift certain pins before installing both chips, and I've done that; what I'm lacking is the specific directions about how to connect the two with a green wire (where it goes, possible track cuts, etc). I have the directions for the resistor-and-FET fix to the SRAMs themselves. I've decided to skip the 1/8W 10K resistors in favor of 1206 SMT resistors mounted flush to the SRAMs (I'm worried about snagging something and busting off a pin). Unfortunately, without the BQ2201 portion of the fix, my IOB-6120 is somewhat inert. Thanks for any pointers, -ethan P.S. - I already have the info at http://www.jkearney.com/sbc6120/kit-A.htm From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 27 21:20:26 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <b0295dbe0610271857x7b347223q4cdc0696fa94fd09@mail.gmail.com> References: <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC@p850ug1> <1161998433.26404.62.camel@linux.site> <20061027182951.Q65844@shell.lmi.net> <b0295dbe0610271857x7b347223q4cdc0696fa94fd09@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061027190357.L65844@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > OK, where did TRSDOS fit in? It was before MSDOS as far as sale to the public. TRS-DOS, Apple-DOS, and CP/M were the three biggest players in MICROcomputers before MS-DOS came along. TRS-DOS was written, apparently as a "work for hire" by Randy Cook for Tandy. Randy loved to add new features, and was NOT into finishing anything. TRS-DOS 2.0 (the first one released) was far from complete. Randy Cook "finished" TRS-DOS 2.1 in a big hurry. Apparat (among others) documented and fixed hundreds of bugs in TRS-DOS 2.1. Then they released it, first as APR-DOS, and then NewDos. Initially, they claimed that it was an all new product. Then, when Randy's lawyer demonstrated that there was a hidden full screen copyright message with "Randy Cook" credited, they then sold it as a "patch" product, "requiring" that users already own a copy of TRS-DOS. But, since there was no enforcement of that requirement, they had to pull the product. They rewrote a non-infringing version called NEWDOS-80. Radio Shack got fed up with Randy's additions of more features than he finished, and took over the product. and dumped Randy. For 2.2, the "Randy Cook" hidden copyright message was patched to "Tandy Corp" Randy wrote a 3.0 release that he never finished. The distributor of that refused to pay him. Randy wrote a 4.0 release that he never finished. The distributor of that refused to pay him. Lobo drives NEEDED a patched and expanded version of TRS-DOS, because their expansion interface used a 179x chip, and couldn't do all of DAM patterns needed, and they wanted to expand to DS, 8" etc drives. They hired all of the talent that they could find, such as Roy Soltoff, to finish and document the product, to be called LDOS 5.0 The finished it! They spun off a subsidiary company, LSI (Logical Systems, Inc.) to market it. Eventually, RS decided that their Model 3 TRS-DOS 1.3 wasn't cutting it, so they licensed LDOS (as "TRS-DOS 6.0"). And Randy Cook started getting royalties! Although Tim Patterson was familiar with it, TRS-DOS was NOT a significant factor in the design of MS-DOS. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 27 21:24:29 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <1162001812.26404.69.camel@linux.site> References: <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC@p850ug1> <1161998433.26404.62.camel@linux.site> <20061027182951.Q65844@shell.lmi.net> <b0295dbe0610271857x7b347223q4cdc0696fa94fd09@mail.gmail.com> <1162001812.26404.69.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <20061027192133.V65844@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006, Warren Wolfe wrote: > [TRS-DOS] > It was its own universe, Jim. The links and questionable parentage > of the original version of DOS are tied directly to CP/M, which was the > first O/S for personal computers that any significant number of > businesses embraced. And, Windows came out of the DOS world, and now > dominates as few products have dominated before. (Note: I am NOT > claiming this is a GOOD thing.) > > From what I can tell, TRSDOS was not a rip-off of anyone's software, > and nobody bothered to rip it off, so it's pretty much out of the world > of O/S scandal. There WERE several imitators of TRS-DOS (although still for TRS-80), including NEWDOS, DOSPLUS, and the semi-legitimate offspring LDOS. > It actually was pretty decent, and had a few ideas of > merit that didn't make it into the mainstream world for a while. It was > just totally tied to Radio Shack computing, and suffered a mortal wound > when IBM came out with their PC. No fault of its own. Rasio Shack AVOIDED expanding TRS-DOS into other semi-related hardware platforms. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 27 21:26:40 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <20061027190357.L65844@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC@p850ug1> <1161998433.26404.62.camel@linux.site> <20061027182951.Q65844@shell.lmi.net> <b0295dbe0610271857x7b347223q4cdc0696fa94fd09@mail.gmail.com> <20061027190357.L65844@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20061027192615.J65844@shell.lmi.net> > Randy wrote a 3.0 release that he never finished. > The distributor of that refused to pay him. "VTOS" From wizard at voyager.net Fri Oct 27 21:31:47 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 22:31:47 -0400 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <20061027182951.Q65844@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC@p850ug1> <1161998433.26404.62.camel@linux.site> <20061027182951.Q65844@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1162002707.26404.81.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-10-27 at 18:44 -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > Everybody who was around had hold of different pieces of that elephant. Indeed! > > Apparently that was sufficient, as nobody > > got sued. Bill Gates then bought out SCP -- I'm unclear if it was the > > whole company or just the O/S product, and a legend was born. > just the OS. Ah, thanks. > and both Tim Patterson ("Falcon Tech"?) and SCP retained rights to use and > market the OS! > Much later (1987?) when SCP was on the rocks, a number of biggies, > reputedly including AT&T were very interested in the asset of a royalty > free license. MS sued, but then they settled out of court by MS buying > SCP. (MUCH cheaper than the lawsuit would have been!) Oh, thanks! This is a much more comforting reason why I remember BOTH Microsoft buying the O/S AND the company. Previously, I was going with some form of dementia. I like the idea of two separate purchases (and memories) MUCH better. > If not for the SPECIFIC incident, (Gary flying up to Oakland for the day > when IBM was scheduled to meet), DRI (once "Intergalctic Digital > Research"!) would still have lost it - there was an extreme level of > culture clash. IBM, with their dress code, etc.) was SHOCKED at what they > saw in Pacific Grove. And (UNCOFIRMED), when the staff at DRI first saw > the IBM people arriving, they thought it was a drug raid. Probably the LONG term outlook would have been separate, but IBM wasn't expecting the success they had with the PC, so I think they would have gone with DRI alone, without Gary's literally flying off. Gary could be annoying to deal with. I'm given to understand that he also did some touch-and-go landings for practice on the way back, and met the IBM v.i.p.s at the airport without knowing who they were. Ouch. That was when they decided to go with that "snot-nosed kid up near Seattle." Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From jim.isbell at gmail.com Fri Oct 27 21:33:35 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 21:33:35 -0500 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <1162001812.26404.69.camel@linux.site> References: <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC@p850ug1> <1161998433.26404.62.camel@linux.site> <20061027182951.Q65844@shell.lmi.net> <b0295dbe0610271857x7b347223q4cdc0696fa94fd09@mail.gmail.com> <1162001812.26404.69.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <b0295dbe0610271933w593c36f1m7338aeb942a8ccf@mail.gmail.com> I was in love with TRSDOS and also felt betrayed when MSDOS muscled its way in with a big pocket full of dollars and, as far as I was concerned at the time, an inferior product. I dont know if TRSDOS could have evolved to meet the competition or not, but it never had the chance to try because Uncle Bill had too much clout through IBM. Teaming up with IBM is what made MSDOS. It gave them the money to force their monopoly on everyone. I now use Unix and have forsaken the whole world of MSDOS. My wife wont let go though because she doesnt want to learn a new thing and that is what makes Uncle Bill safe in his position a worlds richest man. I think it is something like the US being the only superpower. It cant be dismantled now because the clout is there to always be ahead of ALL competitors. Once a certain size is exceeded, its like a black hole, its all over for the rest of the competition, they just get swallowed. Of course...the dinosaurs were once kings of the world too. But it took a meteor the size of Manhattan to change it. That could happen to the USA and Uncle Bill as well, I guess. On 10/27/06, Warren Wolfe <wizard at voyager.net> wrote: > On Fri, 2006-10-27 at 20:57 -0500, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > > OK, where did TRSDOS fit in? It was before MSDOS as far as sale to the public. > > > It was its own universe, Jim. The links and questionable parentage > of the original version of DOS are tied directly to CP/M, which was the > first O/S for personal computers that any significant number of > businesses embraced. And, Windows came out of the DOS world, and now > dominates as few products have dominated before. (Note: I am NOT > claiming this is a GOOD thing.) > > From what I can tell, TRSDOS was not a rip-off of anyone's software, > and nobody bothered to rip it off, so it's pretty much out of the world > of O/S scandal. It actually was pretty decent, and had a few ideas of > merit that didn't make it into the mainstream world for a while. It was > just totally tied to Radio Shack computing, and suffered a mortal wound > when IBM came out with their PC. No fault of its own. > > > > Peace, > > Warren E. Wolfe > wizard at voyager.net > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From brain at jbrain.com Fri Oct 27 22:06:27 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 22:06:27 -0500 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <20061027190357.L65844@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC@p850ug1> <1161998433.26404.62.camel@linux.site> <20061027182951.Q65844@shell.lmi.net> <b0295dbe0610271857x7b347223q4cdc0696fa94fd09@mail.gmail.com> <20061027190357.L65844@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4542C933.4090709@jbrain.com> Although I'm not a TRS-DOS person, this stuff is truly impressive. Can one of you update a wikipedia entry or put this on a TRS web page so it does not get lost? Jim From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Oct 28 00:13:46 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 22:13:46 -0700 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <20061027192133.V65844@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC@p850ug1> <1161998433.26404.62.camel@linux.site> <20061027182951.Q65844@shell.lmi.net> <b0295dbe0610271857x7b347223q4cdc0696fa94fd09@mail.gmail.com> <1162001812.26404.69.camel@linux.site> <20061027192133.V65844@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4542E70A.8090205@msm.umr.edu> Fred Cisin wrote: >On Fri, 27 Oct 2006, Warren Wolfe wrote: > > >><snip> >> From what I can tell, TRSDOS was not a rip-off of anyone's software, >>and nobody bothered to rip it off, so it's pretty much out of the world >>of O/S scandal. >> >> ><snip> > LNW Research ripped of the machine, the firmware. Did it run a different O/S? I know that it and Pineapple (in various guises) all were of the opinion that the contents of rom were not subject to copyright, and probably forced the process that lead to what is called DRM now in part. When the lawsuits were done, both LNW, and the Pineapple people all ceased operation overnight (at least in the US). Most of the Pineapple people were headquartered in the LA area where I am, and there were junk ones on the market for a year after they were shut down. LNW was headquartered in Irvine, I think, and the operators moved immediatly to found ALR after ceaing operation doing LNW, but did it with licensed designs, etc. From tony.eros at machm.org Sat Oct 28 00:21:20 2006 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Anthony L. Eros) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 01:21:20 -0400 Subject: [Off-topic] Anyone from St. Louis available? Message-ID: <860c408989f245759a00bacd114ed5ac@machm.org> I'm a very happy Cardinals fan stuck on the East Coast. Are there any St. Louis folks on the list who might be willing to pick me up a copy of the Post Dispatch for Saturday and Sunday? I would be happy to pay for the papers, shipping, and a little for your trouble... Thanks! -- Tony From sdc695 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 27 13:44:45 2006 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: <20061027184445.84016.qmail@web60820.mail.yahoo.com> EBCDIC had all sorts of representations. The most variation was in the area of control characters (0x00 to 0x3F). Most of the alpha symbols were pretty standard. The best help was if you knew how cards were punched. That helped quite a bit, but there were all sorts of wierdnesses. The most blantant one was the translation of 0-2-8 (it is labeled that way on an 029 keypunch) into 0xE0. It didn't match the "pattern" at all. I helped design (with logic gates) a converter from card code to EBCDIC and it wasn't fun. It was before roms were wide spread which would make the job MUCH easier. Proper card codes had only a single punch in rows 1-7 (or none) which can be coded as three bits. The other rows (12, 11, 0, 8, 9) made up the other 5 bits. Shuffle that thru a 1702 ROM (256 addresses, 8 bits) and you could (with proper programming) get EBCDIC out the other end. The proper programming of the ROM is left as an excercise to the reader. Another observation: A long time ago I wandered into the DMV to do some menial task, and they had a big thick book of "taken" vanity plates. Having some time to waste, I looked thru it and saw the plate "E2C5E7" listed, and also the plate "E2C5E7Y" listed. Their interpretation is also left as an excercise to the reader. So EBCDIC lives on in wierd ways, where numbers need to be collated AFTER letters. -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From karentompsett at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 27 14:19:53 2006 From: karentompsett at sbcglobal.net (Tim and Karen Tompsett) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 12:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Still Looking for Parts to Complete Omnibot 2000 Message-ID: <20061027191954.13818.qmail@web81203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i have two omnibot 2000. one only needs gear in right sholder the rest like new in org. box.#2lights lt&rt head fw rev ok tape does not work rt arm goes up but not down .make me fair offer and you can both.ihave no idea of shiping coast.tim 501 362 8069 9am too8pm Thank you Tim From mcsinternet at mcsinternet.net Fri Oct 27 16:14:43 2006 From: mcsinternet at mcsinternet.net (Sam Ammons) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:14:43 -0400 Subject: RA6800ML Message-ID: <000501c6fa0c$f1308c00$2101a8c0@T2682> I am looking for the Space Voyage program made by TSC back in the 70's. I would like to port it to the 68hc11. Do you know where I could get a copy of the listing. I had the book but lost it years ago. I have found the s19 files but the I/O and the ram location will have to be changed. Thanks for your time Sam Ammons From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 27 19:43:07 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 20:43:07 -0400 Subject: Yet Another Old Cyber-Coot Message-ID: <0J7T00B0DLXLF7W5@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Yet Another Old Cyber-Coot > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 00:08:13 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> > >> > I am not sure what you mean by 'in one package'. I personally think the >> > Epson QX10 is one of the nicest CP/M machines ever, but that has a >> > separate monitor and keyboard so it might not be 'one package'. >> >> >> What I mean by "one package" is that the machine is a complete >> computer -- monitor and keyboard built in. One plug, one diskette, and >> you're off... My personal preference is for separates, in computers, > >Well, the Epson QX10 meets the second of those criteria. It's 3 units >(processor box, keyboard, monitor), but there's only one mains cable (the >monitor, and obviously the keyboard [1] take power from the PSU in the >processor box). Visual 1050, main box has two floppies and the monitor sits on top of it. If you have the hard disk (sasi interface) then it's three. Z80, 128k with 6502 to do monochrome text and graphics. Runs CP/MV2.2 and CP/M+. For an all in one box, North*Star Advantage Z80, 128k One or two floppies and hard disk Runs NS*dos, CP/M2.2 or UCSD PASCAL. For laptop, PX8 with 120k ramdisk wedge. For totable Kaypro 4/84 with 360k 5.25 floppy, 720/781k 3.5" floppy, Turborom with personality card, Handyman and Advent 1mb ramdisk. In the range of sperates, will S100 do? I also have others. > >[1] Although I do have a keyboard from a Ramtek graphics unit which does >have it's own internal mains PSU. > >> > I'm also partial to the RML380Z, but mainly becasue that was the first >> > CP/M machine I used )at school).. And to be honest, CP/M was a let-down >> > after the LDOS I used at home on my TRS-80 Model 1. My $.02 is LDOS was later and had some good ideas but the software base of applications was smaller. >> >> Perhaps... But CP/M was a hobbyist O/S that sort of became the >> industry standard. Cool, in a way. The closest thing to THAT today is >> Linux, and that's a tad bit complicated (and too good) for hacking it to >> be much use. > >I've always thought the analogy is between CP/M and MSDOS (and not >because of the obvious technical similarities). Both are pretty minimal >OSes, both became industry standards, and in both cases there were often >better choices available. The biggest reason CP/M succeeded was it was good enough, easily ported to new hardware and inexpensive. Because I abstracted the hardware sufficiently the base of software grew as it ran on any machine that could run CP/M. >> And, truth be told, it's clear that a lot of the people I've seen >> post in the last 24 hours obviously know a lot more than I do about >> quite a few things. That is as it should be. Normally, I'm the alpha >> geek wherever I am, so it's refreshing to think I'll be LEARNING things >> for a change. So far, it reminds me of the Aloha Computer Club back in >> the 70s... Everybody is knowledgeable, and some VERY much so, but all >> experienced in somewhat different areas. Seems like a friendly group, >> too. I'm a painfully honest person (I know, I know, liars say that, >> too) so I'll let people know when I don't know something. But, I have > >I think you are going to fit in here. I certainly consider that the day I >stop learning is the day I die. And I think everyone here is basically >very honset (certainly all the classic computer collectors I've met face >to face are). Roger That! Clipped off the Monroe discussion. Nice machine but memory serves they were not simple hardware! Allison From william.berkeley at yahoo.com.sg Fri Oct 27 22:57:12 2006 From: william.berkeley at yahoo.com.sg (william zheng) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 11:57:12 +0800 (CST) Subject: DEC spare parts In-Reply-To: <4542D0BF.4050408@berkeley.sg> Message-ID: <20061028035712.64750.qmail@web61115.mail.yahoo.com> Hello Henk, You were right, my mailbox have been swampped and it will take me a while to sort out who needs what and how to cut the deal. some of the items I would gladly be "contributing" towards charitable cause with shipping cost covered, but certain items that are still of commercial value and purpose will have to be negotiated. I am impressed by what I saw on your web site and the efforts in building a pdp museum. Will revert to you soonest, pls bear with it for a while. Thanks to everyone for sending me your request, I promise to respond to your emails but can't be sure if I can accommodate all your needs! Rgds William Hello William, I read your post yesterday, but did not reply as I expect that you will get *many* replies. This morning I re-read your message and thought "Well, if I don't try I will sure not get lucky" :-) So, I give it a try and send an e-mail ... I am sure you will get plenty interest for the SCSI stuff, but to maintain my collection (see www.pdp-11.nl ) I would love to get the following boards: > 3. PDP-11/34 UNIBUS board sets: > --------------------------------- What will the world find in 2020? Leave a part of your 2006 in the Yahoo! Time Capsule. Contribute now! From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Oct 28 01:02:11 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 23:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Still Looking for Parts to Complete Omnibot 2000 In-Reply-To: <20061027191954.13818.qmail@web81203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20061027191954.13818.qmail@web81203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.55.0610272300310.13477@helios.cs.csubak.edu> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006, Tim and Karen Tompsett wrote: > i have two omnibot 2000. one only needs gear in right > sholder the rest like new in org. box.#2lights lt&rt > head fw rev ok tape does not work rt arm goes up but > not down .make me fair offer and you can both.ihave no > idea of shiping coast.tim 501 362 8069 9am too8pm > Thank you Tim I remember drooling over that thing at the time. As I learned more about computers, I realized how little it could possibly do. What could one actually do with it? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 28 02:07:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 00:07:29 -0700 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <20061027182951.Q65844@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC@p850ug1>, <1161998433.26404.62.camel@linux.site>, <20061027182951.Q65844@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45429F41.4860.33B10967@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Oct 2006 at 18:44, Fred Cisin wrote: > If not for the SPECIFIC incident, (Gary flying up to Oakland for the day > when IBM was scheduled to meet), DRI (once "Intergalctic Digital > Research"!) would still have lost it - there was an extreme level of > culture clash. IBM, with their dress code, etc.) was SHOCKED at what they > saw in Pacific Grove. And (UNCOFIRMED), when the staff at DRI first saw > the IBM people arriving, they thought it was a drug raid. I don't know about that last part. From everyone I've talked to (including some of his poker-playing buddies) the following is about the closest to the actual way that events unfolded. (Apparently, the IBM delegation was taken a bit back by Dorothy's attitude. No one ever says "no" to IBM.): http://www.freeenterpriseland.com/BOOK/KILDALL.html Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 28 02:52:31 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 03:52:31 -0400 Subject: 486 EISA system References: <000f01c6e751$9b4efc90$0b01a8c0@game> <200610040842100739.3DEFF8B5@10.0.0.252> <001801c6eff0$0ea34b50$0b01a8c0@game> <200610141836530406.738FF06B@10.0.0.252> <004d01c6effc$17850b30$0b01a8c0@game> <200610142042310034.7402F307@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <00fa01c6fa66$07f20eb0$0b01a8c0@game> Looks like everything is up and running now. I took a dremel to the ST chip and seem to have killed it in the process, but found a DS12C887 on ebay for $5 shipped. Once I got the RTC installed the system would boot but still gave me an EISA error. Doing a massive amount of googling and cross googling I managed to find AMI EISA Configuration Utility V 2.01 on the internet. Running the ECU allowed me to setup the cards in the system (and the EISA memory seems to be just fine so I don't have to replace that chip). About the only issue I have left is configuring the caching Mylex card (it thinks there is still a HD on ID4 that is not there, but atlleast its battery must be good then), that card needs utilities that will not run in DOS or Windows 3.1. I finally installed my boxed copy of OS/2 2.1 onto an SCSI HD in the 486 EISA machine, which is what I wanted it for anyway so I am happy. As somebody mentioned earlier the network card only works on 10Mb with my network, but seems to be speedy enough (the 100Mb connector stays dark when connected). The AMI software had configuration files for my motherboard, Adaptec SCSI, video card, and network card the only one I needed to dig up was the Mylex board (and it told me exactly what file I needed so that made googling easier). If anybody needs the AMI software I can go and dig up the link or email it to you, handy to have if you mess with old EISA systems. Are there drivers anywhere for the Aview 2E cards so I can get higher resolution then 16 color VGA in Windows and OS/2? I have yet to find any for that card. The card has a full 1MB of VRAM so that should be plenty for Win 3.1. Thanks, TZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Saturday, October 14, 2006 11:42 PM Subject: Re: 486 EISA system > On 10/14/2006 at 9:49 PM Teo Zenios wrote: > > >The ST chip is 2 layers that connect at the ends (seems to be some potting > >there), I wonder if the battery is on the top player or the bottom. I hope > >there is enough residual voltage for a meter to read so I know which half > I > >need to disconnect. > > The datasheet for the ST chip is here: > > http://www.datasheet4u.com/download.php?id=531672 > > and clearly says that the battery is in the "top hat", so Ethan's approach > shows a lot of promise. > > >Nothing on the 1225Y then other then finding a replacement? > > Well, you can try the same method on it and see if you turn up a battery. > Otherwise, replacements (either original or FRAM) are inexpensive and > available. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 28 03:04:39 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 01:04:39 -0700 Subject: 486 EISA system In-Reply-To: <00fa01c6fa66$07f20eb0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <000f01c6e751$9b4efc90$0b01a8c0@game>, <00fa01c6fa66$07f20eb0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <4542ACA7.27312.33E55F11@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Oct 2006 at 3:52, Teo Zenios wrote: > Are there drivers anywhere for the Aview 2E cards so I can get higher > resolution then 16 color VGA in Windows and OS/2? I have yet to find any for > that card. The card has a full 1MB of VRAM so that should be plenty for Win > 3.1. The Aview uses the S3 86C924 chip, no? If so, here's something to try: http://www.winsite.com/bin/Info?500000023341 Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Oct 28 03:14:50 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 04:14:50 -0400 Subject: 486 EISA system References: <000f01c6e751$9b4efc90$0b01a8c0@game> <00fa01c6fa66$07f20eb0$0b01a8c0@game> <4542ACA7.27312.33E55F11@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <011801c6fa69$24825870$0b01a8c0@game> Actually I think its an 86c911 (is that an S3 chip?) going by TH99 for the Rev 1.2 card. I guess generic drivers are better then nothing. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2006 4:04 AM Subject: Re: 486 EISA system > On 28 Oct 2006 at 3:52, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > Are there drivers anywhere for the Aview 2E cards so I can get higher > > resolution then 16 color VGA in Windows and OS/2? I have yet to find any for > > that card. The card has a full 1MB of VRAM so that should be plenty for Win > > 3.1. > > The Aview uses the S3 86C924 chip, no? If so, here's something to > try: http://www.winsite.com/bin/Info?500000023341 > > Cheers, > Chuck From william.berkeley at yahoo.com.sg Sat Oct 28 02:03:50 2006 From: william.berkeley at yahoo.com.sg (william zheng) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 15:03:50 +0800 (CST) Subject: DEC Spare parts Message-ID: <20061028070350.80028.qmail@web61118.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I just noticed there was a small typo-error in the list. Item#26 should read as TQK50 tape controller (M7546) instead of the DEQNA which is listed in item #1 MicroVax II board set Also item#31 should read as Emulex DH01 thanks and rgds william --------------------------------- What is the internet to you? Contribute to the Yahoo! Time Capsule and be a part of internet history. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Oct 28 05:17:50 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 05:17:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: 486 EISA system In-Reply-To: <00fa01c6fa66$07f20eb0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <000f01c6e751$9b4efc90$0b01a8c0@game> <200610040842100739.3DEFF8B5@10.0.0.252> <001801c6eff0$0ea34b50$0b01a8c0@game> <200610141836530406.738FF06B@10.0.0.252> <004d01c6effc$17850b30$0b01a8c0@game> <200610142042310034.7402F307@10.0.0.252> <00fa01c6fa66$07f20eb0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0610280515190.11237@host10.invalid.domain> On Sat, 28 Oct 2006, Teo Zenios wrote: > The AMI software had configuration files for my motherboard, Adaptec SCSI, > video card, and network card the only one I needed to dig up was the Mylex > board (and it told me exactly what file I needed so that made googling > easier). If anybody needs the AMI software I can go and dig up the link or > email it to you, handy to have if you mess with old EISA systems. I have an extensive archive of Mylex stuff here if you need the config files & utilities for your card. Let me know which model you have and I'll see what I can find. -Toth From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Oct 28 06:29:50 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 12:29:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <0524CD87-A35F-4C65-A488-ACFFF330A8CF@microspot.co.uk> References: <200610270641.k9R6ev2E048256@dewey.classiccmp.org> <0524CD87-A35F-4C65-A488-ACFFF330A8CF@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <1210.192.168.0.4.1162034990.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, October 27, 2006 6:34 pm, Roger Holmes said: > > (Who has at home what might be a collection of the largest > computers in private ownership - unless you know different > as Esther Rantzen used to say on "That's Life"). I used to think I did (in the UK), but that's only based on no web evidence found to prove otherwise :) I know there's far bigger collections than mine in Europe and the US..... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From alanp at snowmoose.com Sat Oct 28 08:12:33 2006 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 06:12:33 -0700 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <200610280551.k9S5omft061443@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200610280551.k9S5omft061443@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45435741.2060001@snowmoose.com> > > >From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> > >Tim Patterson never denied that QDOS ("Quick and Dirty OS") was based >closely on CP/M. > > Just FYI. Tim's last name is spelled 'Paterson'. alan From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sat Oct 28 08:20:54 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 15:20:54 +0200 Subject: RA6800ML References: <000501c6fa0c$f1308c00$2101a8c0@T2682> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06C20395@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> >Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Sam Ammons >Verzonden: vr 27-10-2006 23:14 >Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Onderwerp: RA6800ML > >I am looking for the Space Voyage program made by TSC back in the 70's. I would like to port it to the 68hc11. Do you >know where I could get a copy of the listing. I had the book but lost it years ago. I have found the s19 files but the I/O >and the ram location will have to be changed. > >Thanks for your time > >Sam Ammons Hi Sam, give me till monday. I think I have that source listing at work and scanned already! It is not a book - at least some 20 pages is hardly a "book" :-) I'll get back to you. - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From cbajpai at comcast.net Sat Oct 28 10:10:20 2006 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 11:10:20 -0400 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <20061027192133.V65844@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200610281510.k9SFALoQ055822@keith.ezwind.net> How big was the TRS-80 Market to support all thoses DOSes? I remember when NewDOS/80 and I just remember it being fast. Any idea who wrote that? -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:24 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: The Origins of DOS On Fri, 27 Oct 2006, Warren Wolfe wrote: > [TRS-DOS] > It was its own universe, Jim. The links and questionable parentage > of the original version of DOS are tied directly to CP/M, which was the > first O/S for personal computers that any significant number of > businesses embraced. And, Windows came out of the DOS world, and now > dominates as few products have dominated before. (Note: I am NOT > claiming this is a GOOD thing.) > > From what I can tell, TRSDOS was not a rip-off of anyone's software, > and nobody bothered to rip it off, so it's pretty much out of the world > of O/S scandal. There WERE several imitators of TRS-DOS (although still for TRS-80), including NEWDOS, DOSPLUS, and the semi-legitimate offspring LDOS. > It actually was pretty decent, and had a few ideas of > merit that didn't make it into the mainstream world for a while. It was > just totally tied to Radio Shack computing, and suffered a mortal wound > when IBM came out with their PC. No fault of its own. Rasio Shack AVOIDED expanding TRS-DOS into other semi-related hardware platforms. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 28 10:18:26 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 10:18:26 -0500 Subject: H960 question, and part available Message-ID: <000d01c6faa4$55467820$6700a8c0@BILLING> One of my H960's actually came to me with a fan already installed in the top. I have a few loose fans, and my other H960 has no fan so I'm getting ready to install one of those condor fans in my H960. I am wondering if the H960 fans at the top are supposed to pull air in, or push air out? I'm more interested in how DEC actually shipped them rather than "it'll work either way". I checked my H960 and it's set to pull air in from the outside downward into the rack. Of course I have no way of knowing if that's how it originally was, or if some collector/scrap person put it in backwards themselves. Anyone set me straight on this? I suspect that's how it's supposed to be given the channel on top for an air filter of some type. Also, I'm working on the last H960 for my collection, and I have leftover one of the antitip feet that stick out the front. If you're standing in front of the front of the rack facing it - it's the right leg. Anyone wants it - cost = shipping. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Oct 28 10:18:43 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 10:18:43 -0500 Subject: [Off-topic] Anyone from St. Louis available? References: <860c408989f245759a00bacd114ed5ac@machm.org> Message-ID: <000e01c6faa4$681699d0$6700a8c0@BILLING> If you want me to do this let me know, I don't mind. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony L. Eros" <tony.eros at machm.org> To: <cctech at classiccmp.org> Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2006 12:21 AM Subject: [Off-topic] Anyone from St. Louis available? > > > I'm a very happy Cardinals fan stuck on the East Coast. Are there any St. > Louis folks on the list who might be willing to pick me up a copy of the > Post Dispatch for Saturday and Sunday? I would be happy to pay for the > papers, shipping, and a little for your trouble... > > Thanks! > > -- Tony > > > > From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 10:27:19 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 10:27:19 -0500 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <200610281510.k9SFALoQ055822@keith.ezwind.net> References: <20061027192133.V65844@shell.lmi.net> <200610281510.k9SFALoQ055822@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <b0295dbe0610280827m7db14beao42bddb17988e27d7@mail.gmail.com> TRS DOS market was prety big at the time. To begin with it was the ONLY desktop computer available in the mass marked....almost two years if memory serves me well. There were several "mini" computers around, but nothing like the RS computer with 8k of memory and a tape system for probgam loading/saving and BASIC. On 10/28/06, Chandra Bajpai <cbajpai at comcast.net> wrote: > > How big was the TRS-80 Market to support all thoses DOSes? > > I remember when NewDOS/80 and I just remember it being fast. Any idea who > wrote that? > > -Chandra > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:24 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: The Origins of DOS > > On Fri, 27 Oct 2006, Warren Wolfe wrote: > > [TRS-DOS] > > It was its own universe, Jim. The links and questionable parentage > > of the original version of DOS are tied directly to CP/M, which was the > > first O/S for personal computers that any significant number of > > businesses embraced. And, Windows came out of the DOS world, and now > > dominates as few products have dominated before. (Note: I am NOT > > claiming this is a GOOD thing.) > > > > From what I can tell, TRSDOS was not a rip-off of anyone's software, > > and nobody bothered to rip it off, so it's pretty much out of the world > > of O/S scandal. > > There WERE several imitators of TRS-DOS (although still for TRS-80), > including NEWDOS, DOSPLUS, and the semi-legitimate offspring LDOS. > > > It actually was pretty decent, and had a few ideas of > > merit that didn't make it into the mainstream world for a while. It was > > just totally tied to Radio Shack computing, and suffered a mortal wound > > when IBM came out with their PC. No fault of its own. > > Rasio Shack AVOIDED expanding TRS-DOS into other semi-related hardware > platforms. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 10:41:32 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 04:41:32 +1300 Subject: H960 question, and part available In-Reply-To: <000d01c6faa4$55467820$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <000d01c6faa4$55467820$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0610280841m746d2b7fw809821136e5291ef@mail.gmail.com> On 10/29/06, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote: > One of my H960's actually came to me with a fan already installed in the > top. I have a few loose fans, and my other H960 has no fan so I'm getting > ready to install one of those condor fans in my H960. I am wondering if the > H960 fans at the top are supposed to pull air in, or push air out? I'm more > interested in how DEC actually shipped them rather than "it'll work either > way". My recollection is that DEC fought physics and pulled air in from the top and exhausted it from the bottom of H960 racks. No idea why they thought that was a good idea. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 28 07:15:29 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 07:15:29 -0500 Subject: Craziest ebay price EVER In-Reply-To: <1210.192.168.0.4.1162034990.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <200610270641.k9R6ev2E048256@dewey.classiccmp.org> <0524CD87-A35F-4C65-A488-ACFFF330A8CF@microspot.co.uk> <1210.192.168.0.4.1162034990.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <454349E1.6090100@yahoo.co.uk> Witchy wrote: > On Fri, October 27, 2006 6:34 pm, Roger Holmes said: >> (Who has at home what might be a collection of the largest >> computers in private ownership - unless you know different >> as Esther Rantzen used to say on "That's Life"). > > I used to think I did (in the UK), but that's only based on no web > evidence found to prove otherwise :) I know there's far bigger collections > than mine in Europe and the US..... Jim Austin probably gets my vote for biggest private UK collection I think - there may be others who have more items, but I'm not aware of anyone who collects so much big iron... I bet there are a few silent ebay hounds with money and masses of stuff, but personally I don't think they count :-) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 28 07:19:19 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 07:19:19 -0500 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <20061027190357.L65844@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC@p850ug1> <1161998433.26404.62.camel@linux.site> <20061027182951.Q65844@shell.lmi.net> <b0295dbe0610271857x7b347223q4cdc0696fa94fd09@mail.gmail.com> <20061027190357.L65844@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45434AC7.6090806@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 27 Oct 2006, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: >> OK, where did TRSDOS fit in? It was before MSDOS as far as sale to the public. > > TRS-DOS, Apple-DOS, and CP/M were the three biggest players in > MICROcomputers before MS-DOS came along. Although both TRS-DOS and Apple-DOS were pretty much insignificant outside of the US, I would have thought. I don't think RS or Apple ever could have developed a world market the way the CP/M guys did. From jim at jkearney.com Sat Oct 28 12:33:44 2006 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 13:33:44 -0400 Subject: Looking for details on battery-backup ECO for IOB-6120 In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0610271915m7658a8e0oa1065a1d790dd01e@mail.gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0610271915m7658a8e0oa1065a1d790dd01e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45439478.3060003@jkearney.com> Sorry Ethan - SpamAssassin sent your messages into the spam folder. I'll answer your questions off-list. jim On 10/27/2006 10:15 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, all, > > I've posted on the Spare Time Gizmos Yahoo Group, and I've written Jim > Kearney twice and no responses yet - I have a couple of IOB-6120s > that, due to the nature of the ECOs, I haven't yet installed SRAM on. > I'm having problems with the fix between the 74ACT138 and the BQ2201 - > what instructions I do have say to lift certain pins before installing > both chips, and I've done that; what I'm lacking is the specific > directions about how to connect the two with a green wire (where it > goes, possible track cuts, etc). > > I have the directions for the resistor-and-FET fix to the SRAMs > themselves. I've decided to skip the 1/8W 10K resistors in favor of > 1206 SMT resistors mounted flush to the SRAMs (I'm worried about > snagging something and busting off a pin). Unfortunately, without the > BQ2201 portion of the fix, my IOB-6120 is somewhat inert. > > Thanks for any pointers, > > -ethan > > P.S. - I already have the info at > http://www.jkearney.com/sbc6120/kit-A.htm From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Oct 28 13:00:52 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 19:00:52 +0100 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 28 Oct 2006 07:19:19 CDT." <45434AC7.6090806@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200610281800.TAA32301@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jules Richardson said: > Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Fri, 27 Oct 2006, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > >> OK, where did TRSDOS fit in? It was before MSDOS as far as sale to the public. > > > > TRS-DOS, Apple-DOS, and CP/M were the three biggest players in > > MICROcomputers before MS-DOS came along. > > Although both TRS-DOS and Apple-DOS were pretty much insignificant outside of > the US, I would have thought. I don't think RS or Apple ever could have > developed a world market the way the CP/M guys did. > Both Apple and RS were big enough in the uk circa 1978/9 on to support a number of dedicated hardware and software suppliers. Both were used quite a bit by small businesses* that couldn't afford cp/m kit, as well as hobbyists like me. (I got a TRS-80 Model 1 around the beginning of '78 - still got it...) The Apple II was also rebadged and marketed by ITT, in a silver case IIRC. * I wrote and maintained some small business software for the TRS-80 in the early days. Computers were very new to most people at that time and users required a lot of (profitable) hand-holding! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 13:52:40 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 13:52:40 -0500 Subject: Cleaning out the garage. Message-ID: <b0295dbe0610281152o5e94c5d3w2f8ead307e6f03a7@mail.gmail.com> On monday I am having 100 gallons of anti-fouling paint and two Killowat linears delivered to the house. There is no room in the garage. Today we are cleaning it out. My wife sais, "you havent used it in 5 years junk it." I agreed. Then I started picking things up and saying, "This is a good computer" My wife says, "you havent used it since 1962, junk it." She is right. I have boxes of software and software and hardware manuals which I estimate it would take me 3 days to catalog and put on ebay or offer on this list. It will take less than 4 hours to carry it all to the curb. AND I need the space monday, not a month from now. I have boxes of laser printer parts and VGA cards and all manner of CPUs and chips. They are all going. I have boxes of pin feed paper that its easier to haul to the curb. I have boxes of books that weigh to much to ship. How do I quiet my consience that keep screaming at me, "Someone would really like this."? If there ia anyone in the Corpus Christi area that is interested, the trash man wont be here till Wed and if it doesnt rain, some of this stuff has value. I have a 10 car garage and there are only 5 cars in it and I dont have space for 100 gallons of paint!!! -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 28 15:08:32 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 13:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <45435741.2060001@snowmoose.com> References: <200610280551.k9S5omft061443@dewey.classiccmp.org> <45435741.2060001@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <20061028130558.M99648@shell.lmi.net> > >Tim Patterson never denied that QDOS ("Quick and Dirty OS") was based > >closely on CP/M. On Sat, 28 Oct 2006, Alan Perry wrote: > Just FYI. Tim's last name is spelled 'Paterson'. Thank you I keep getting him confused with a guy at UC. He (the one who wrote QDOS), did a nice article in DDJ about 25 years ago From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 28 15:15:53 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 13:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cleaning out the garage. In-Reply-To: <b0295dbe0610281152o5e94c5d3w2f8ead307e6f03a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <b0295dbe0610281152o5e94c5d3w2f8ead307e6f03a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061028131435.L99648@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 28 Oct 2006, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > My wife sais, "you havent used it in 5 years junk it." I agreed. My ex used to say that (except "SIX MONTHS"!) I handed her the fire extinguisher. From gstreet at indy.net Sat Oct 28 15:42:49 2006 From: gstreet at indy.net (Robert) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 16:42:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Origins of DOS Message-ID: <28142772.1162068169178.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> As far as the origins of DOS: How many of you have read the chapter on Gary Kildall in "They Made America," by Harold Evans? A used copy can now be had for cheap (bookfinder.com or amazon.com). Evans used Kildall's unpublished memoir as one of his source documents. Of course, folks can always take issue with Kildall's memory (or slant on things), but in the book, Kildall claimed that he _did_ strike a deal with the IBMer's (including a hand shake -- after returning from his prior engagement with Godbout[iirc]). If Gary's story was accurate, well, then this story would be one of the largest cover-up's in the latter 20th Century. Like someone was kind enough to mention on this discussion group, a year and a half ago, Paterson is suing Evans. Grab a copy of the book. It's an amazing story. I cherish my copy... And while we are on the topic of rumors(or perhaps, facts): It's rumored that the Caldera suit (the one that started out as primarily a complaint about M$'s "aard code" (which was pretty much the death knell for DRI) -- ended up morphing into something far greater. It's alleged that the original complaints (by Kildall) were contained in the documentation that Ray Noorda got when he purchased rights to DR-DOS (and related software. eg: CP/M). It's alleged that it was incredibly damning evidence that M$ wanted to keep surpressed at all costs. In very early 2000, Caldera did win its case for a undisclosed amount (I know that there are readily available figures of the award, but some have stated that those figures were intentionally low-balled). True? I don't know, but I sure wish I had access to the 937 _BOXES_ (not pages) of documents that were shredded. It does seem a little _odd_ that these historic documents would be so conveniently turned into toilet paper. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/05/22/sco_pulps_calderams_trial_archives/ I hope the truth eventually comes to light, but I'm not counting on it. Meanwhile, it sure is interesting... Regards, Robert Greenstreet From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 28 15:47:03 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 15:47:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: I'm back! (plus power component questions) Message-ID: <200610282047.k9SKl32A065740@keith.ezwind.net> Hi folks, I unfortunately lost access to the net last Sunday/Monday when my Dreamcast (model HKT:3010 (Hong Kong)) started resetting itself randomly (usually every 5-10 seconds). Despite having another one (partially broken - the GD disc drive doesn't work), a model HKT:3000 (Japanese), I was unable to sort the problem out. I did opened up the spare one as a test run and gave it a good clean out. I checked it still worked and, apart from the GD disc drive, it did. I opened up the one I had been using and, apart from a dead spder in there, it wasn't at all dirty. I looked over the connections and did everything I could to try and get it working again. It still resets itself randomly, making it pretty useless other than for spare parts. I have borrowed my dads one (model HKT: 3030 (UK/Europe?)) so I can get back online and get a new one from eBay :) While poking around inside the Dreamcast games consoles I noticed some familiar components which I has seen similar versions of in my Amiga. The first one is what I have dubbed the "power towers" and they look like vertical batteries. Usually come in groups of 5. Can anyone tell me there name and/or what they do? The second thing is the erm... plastic(?) "polo mint" that has what appears to be copper wire wrapped around it. Can anyone give me (or send me in the right direction to find) any information on it. Thanks in advance, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat Oct 28 16:07:31 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 22:07:31 +0100 Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <200610280551.k9S5omfu061443@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200610280551.k9S5omfu061443@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5FA2C9ED-3BDD-4798-9216-4957F3958743@microspot.co.uk> On 28 Oct, 2006, at 06:51, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com> > >> (Who has at home what might be a collection of the largest >> computers in private ownership - unless you know different >> as Esther Rantzen used to say on "That's Life"). > > That is a dangerous claim to make. But hopefully start an interesting discussion. > > Paul Pierce would be laughing. > > -- > Will OK, so how much floor space does his largest computer use? > From: "Evan Koblentz" <evan at snarc.net> > > If he meant physically largest, Indeed. > then I know a guy here in New Jersey who has > a Burroughs mainframe which requires an 18-wheeler truck (or two) > to move. When I moved Flossie we used one articulated lorry (I did not count the wheels) and one rigid truck with a tail lift. > And let's not forget Indiana's Jim Curry who has a vast collect of > Cray > supercomputers. The pictures of Cray computers I've seen have no peripherals, just a CPU, which is smaller than the fixed part of Flossie. Much more powerful of course than my Germanium giant which is about the power of a 6502, though it is slightly better handling big numbers. The installation requirements say it needs 700 square feet, though I have one squeezed into 500 square feet. The other (Arthur) is disassembled, some packed around Flossie and some in another part of the barn. > I have an impressive collection of the * smallest * computers. :) Very good, the list as a whole covers most machine types. I lost interest in my mainframes for a few years and moved onto a UK101 then I changed job and programmed the Apple ][, //e, ///, Lisa then just about every Mac, and I'm writing this on an Intel core duo Mac laptop. > > From: "Witchy" <witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk> > On Fri, October 27, 2006 6:34 pm, Roger Holmes said: >> >> (Who has at home what might be a collection of the largest >> computers in private ownership - unless you know different >> as Esther Rantzen used to say on "That's Life"). > > I used to think I did (in the UK), but that's only based on no web > evidence found to prove otherwise :) I know there's far bigger > collections > than mine in Europe and the US..... > > -- > adrian/witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? I do not have the largest number of computers, I am asking are the computers at my home the largest in a private collection? My machines are not even home computers, they cost 247,000 pounds new, though I paid 200 pounds for one and 150 for the slightly smaller one which included loads of spare parts (almost another computer). They contain almost no gold, just some platinum in some relays (which are not part of the logic), hence the scrap price being so low (they cost much less than the cost of transporting them, not counting dismantling which took a week and reassembly which took several months back when I was in my twenties and had more energy and more spare time). Flossie has well over 4,000 printed circuit boards and weighs about five tons. She does not require air conditioning, though the seven Ampex TM4 mag tape drives officially do need it. She uses 13kVA three phase electricity. I showed some of the documentation to a young chap recently and he what he found surprising that the computer comes with a floor plan in the installation instructions. I did not show him the details of the floor loading, nor the requirement for a separate one inch copper braid wired back to the building's mains power inlet earth connection. Roger Holmes. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 16:37:01 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 17:37:01 -0400 Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <5FA2C9ED-3BDD-4798-9216-4957F3958743@microspot.co.uk> References: <200610280551.k9S5omfu061443@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5FA2C9ED-3BDD-4798-9216-4957F3958743@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <e1d20d630610281437v11edd5d4q370d363ef6104f1f@mail.gmail.com> > OK, so how much floor space does his largest computer use? I am not sure, but from some pictures I have seen, he has a LOT of stuff for his two IBM 709s. And then there is the 7094 system. And the S/370 system. Each system may take up 500 square feet. For that matter, if I were to get all the stuff together for my Hitachi AS/6 (A Japanese 3032 clone), it would probably not fit in 500 square feet either. The processor is 21 feet long by three feet wide, and does not contain any RAM or the channel I/O hardware. The six spindle 3330 DASD string is 15 feet long by 4 feet wide. Then the three tapes with controller is another 12 by 3 feet, then the card reader and punch take up two more three by six footprints, then the network box, then the 1403N printer, then the comm controller at five by four, then the other comm controller at 3 by 3, then some more junk I could hang off it if I wanted to. When you add this all up, then figure in the space needed to open the doors and gates for servicing - well, it is a large plot of land. I think Sridhar is in the same boat. For that matter. that 4381 system that sold on Ebay six months or so back would also fits (and sinks) in that boat, having a couple good DASD strings. > Flossie has well over 4,000 printed circuit > boards and weighs about five tons. Pictures please! I am actually trying to buy a building so I can get all this junk in one place. -- Will From ygehrich at yahoo.com Sat Oct 28 17:28:08 2006 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 18:28:08 -0400 Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <e1d20d630610281437v11edd5d4q370d363ef6104f1f@mail.gmail.co m> References: <200610280551.k9S5omfu061443@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5FA2C9ED-3BDD-4798-9216-4957F3958743@microspot.co.uk> <e1d20d630610281437v11edd5d4q370d363ef6104f1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061028182703.05d10b18@yahoo.com> At 05:37 PM 10/28/2006 William Donzelli wrote: >>OK, so how much floor space does his largest computer use? I worked with he IBM 7030 (stretch) many years ago and it took up a very large room certainly much more than 500 sq ft. It was enormous. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 28 17:56:00 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 15:56:00 -0700 Subject: Roger Holmes mystery machine (Flossie) is.. Message-ID: <C1692E10.9356%aek@bitsavers.org> http://web.onetel.com/~rodritab/open_day.htm ICT 1301 Nice pics of the Ampex drives at the bottom. I've been pondering the fact there is so little communications with the UK old iron folks recently. It is nice that the CCS archives are on line http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 28 17:37:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 23:37:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ramtek (was: Yet Another Old Cyber-Coot) In-Reply-To: <E1Gdcus-0007nS-00@xmission.xmission.com> from "Richard" at Oct 27, 6 07:23:18 pm Message-ID: <m1Gdwnj-000IySC@p850ug1> > > [1] Although I do have a keyboard from a Ramtek graphics unit which does > > have it's own internal mains PSU. > > Speaking of Ramtek, what sort of Ramtek gear does anyone/everyone have? I have the keyboard I mentioned and the cardcage (with enough boards to be useful) from an RM9460 (68000-based model). I don't have the outer case or PSUs from that machine though, but I do have Unibus and Qbus interface cards somewhere. One day I'll have a go at getting it going again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 28 17:57:36 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 23:57:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: I'm back! (plus power component questions) In-Reply-To: <200610282047.k9SKl32A065740@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Oct 28, 6 03:47:03 pm Message-ID: <m1Gdx7X-000IycC@p850ug1> > The first one is what I have dubbed the "power > towers" and they look like vertical batteries. > Usually come in groups of 5. Can anyone tell > me there name and/or what they do? Sound like electrolytic capacitors. They act as energy storage devices, to smooth out fluctuations in voltage (for example the output of a rectifier cricuit is pulsating DC, a capacitor will smooth that out). An electrolytic capacitor has a high value of capacitance for its size, but it also has other characteristics (for esample, it's 'polarised', one side must be positive wrt the other or the capacitor will be damaged. And a eelatively high self-inductance) that make it less suitable for some other applications. > > The second thing is the erm... plastic(?) "polo I owuld think that's actually ferrite (a magnetic material) > mint" that has what appears to be copper > wire wrapped around it. Can anyone give me > (or send me in the right direction to find) > any information on it. Sounds like a torroidal inductor. Used for filtering DC power lines, as the energy storage device in switching regulators, etc. I recomend you read a book called 'The Art of Electronics' by Horrowitz and Hill. While it won't specifically answer these questions, it's a very good introduction to electronics. The only downside is that it's not cheap. -tony From staylor at mrynet.com Sat Oct 28 18:01:49 2006 From: staylor at mrynet.com (User Staylor) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 18:01:49 -0500 Subject: Sick RL11 controller help Message-ID: <200610282301.k9SN1njw025711@mrynet.com> I have a PDP-11/34a UNIBUS system, and the RL11 controller just died on me. I haven't a spare RL11 to diagnose it with, so I've been toggling in whatever test programs I can find. The RL02 drives I have, the cables and the packs are all verified good by booting and testing them on an 11/53 system. The symptoms are as follows: o No drive will boot. CPU halts. o Using vtserver, I can copy the first 8 blocks from any drive back to the vtserver host, but then fails on block 8 with HNF (Header Not Found) in the CSR. Always block 8 (blocks 0 thru 7 always read fine). o A toggle-in oscillating head positioner test code (from the manuals) seems to audibly indicate the head carriage is moving back-and-forth continuously. o The machine seems otherwise unaffected. I can toggle in and test basic machine functionality for memory, CPU, interrupts, etc. It seems quite certain that I have a RL11 controller that has stopped working properly. Not having any other UNIBUS disk systems or any way to boot XXDP, I can't do any further testing. The machine and disk were working fine, and I was even running diagnostics on it when the failure occured. My question is this: Is such a sector addressing failure at all common enough that someone could suggest replacing one or more components on the RL11 controller before I try to obtain a replacement and chuck this one into the trash? Perhaps someone has a working controller they could sell? Thanks in advance, -scott staylor (at) smedley (dot) mrynet (dot) com From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 28 18:03:38 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 16:03:38 -0700 Subject: ict1301.co.uk Message-ID: <C1692FDA.9358%aek@bitsavers.org> http://ict1301.co.uk/13012006.htm A bit more up to date than the previous url From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 28 18:09:17 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 16:09:17 -0700 Subject: CCS newsletters Message-ID: <C169312D.935A%aek@bitsavers.org> Argh.. The top link is broken http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/res/ Works for the newsletters. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Oct 28 18:19:42 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 18:19:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: I'm back! (plus power component questions) Message-ID: <200610282319.k9SNJdtF069620@keith.ezwind.net> --- Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > The first one is what I have dubbed the "power > > towers" and they look like vertical batteries. > > Usually come in groups of 5. Can anyone tell > > me there name and/or what they do? > > Sound like electrolytic capacitors. They act as > energy storage devices, ahhhh. I thought I felt a little electric charge when I held my finger on the top of one for a few seconds (power was off at the time, but it had been on about 10 minutes earlier). > to smooth out fluctuations in voltage (for example > the output of a > rectifier cricuit is pulsating DC, a capacitor wil l > smooth that out). An > electrolytic capacitor has a high value of > capacitance for its size, but > it also has other characteristics (for esample, it 's > 'polarised', one > side must be positive wrt the other or the capacit or > will be damaged. And > a eelatively high self-inductance) that make it le ss > suitable for some > other applications. > > > > > The second thing is the erm... plastic(?) "polo > > I owuld think that's actually ferrite (a magnetic > material) > > > mint" that has what appears to be copper > > wire wrapped around it. Can anyone give me > > (or send me in the right direction to find) > > any information on it. > > Sounds like a torroidal inductor. Used for filteri ng > DC power lines, as > the energy storage device in switching regulators, > etc. > > I recomend you read a book called 'The Art of > Electronics' by Horrowitz > and Hill. While it won't specifically answer these > questions, it's a > very good introduction to electronics. The only > downside is that it's not > cheap. > > -tony > Thanks for that Tony. I have been making a list of books (and recommended bookselling websites) that people have mentioned on here. I'll try and track some of them down soon ;) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Oct 28 18:24:56 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 00:24:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <5FA2C9ED-3BDD-4798-9216-4957F3958743@microspot.co.uk> References: <200610280551.k9S5omfu061443@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5FA2C9ED-3BDD-4798-9216-4957F3958743@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <1138.192.168.0.4.1162077896.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, October 28, 2006 10:07 pm, Roger Holmes said: > I do not have the largest number of computers, I am asking are the > computers at my home the > largest in a private collection? My machines are not even home Now I've re-read your original post and that's what you asked, curse my speed reading.... I blame this on my hard day's DIY (UK electrical regulations, mmmmm) and my 7 hour drive tomorrow to fix a DEC Alpha that didn't like being turned off this morning! To be fair that's only 3 hours longer than my normal 4 hour weekly sunday commute to my southern residence :o) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 28 18:26:16 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 16:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <45429F41.4860.33B10967@cclist.sydex.com> References: <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC@p850ug1>, <1161998433.26404.62.camel@linux.site>, <20061027182951.Q65844@shell.lmi.net> <45429F41.4860.33B10967@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061028160550.F99648@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 28 Oct 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't know about that last part. From everyone I've talked to > (including some of his poker-playing buddies) the following is about > the closest to the actual way that events unfolded. (Apparently, the > IBM delegation was taken a bit back by Dorothy's attitude. No one > ever says "no" to IBM.): > http://www.freeenterpriseland.com/BOOK/KILDALL.html A pretty good description (one of the very few that doesn't try to coverup Gary's final incident), but, with a few flaws: > he wrote a high-level language for them that made the processor > infinitely more useful. You could give English-like commands to the chip > instead of talking in 0s and 1s. > When Intel developed the worlds first floppy disk system > and called it CP/M or control program for microprocessors. some say that it USED TO be "Control Program and Monitor", and was changed to "Control Program for Microcomputers" later > For some reason, IBM mistakenly thought that CP/M was owned by Microsoft Due to the popularity of the Microsoft "Softcard" (Z80 board with CP/M for Apple) > IBM never told him they would let customers choose between MS-DOS at $40 > and CP/M at $240. Of course, who would pay 6 times more for the same > thing? That WAS the previously expected price, and there are some sources that say that Kildall SET that price. Many/most "experts" originally EXPECTED CP/M-86 (at $240) to win out over PC-DOS. But, when CP/M-86 finalloy came out, the "placeholder" was too solidly established, and the "benefits" of the "standard" were not clearly visible. And, in terms of the basic premise of the article (that Kildall and Gates would be interchangable), Gary Kildall lacked the greed and competitive drive that it would take to become what billg became. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Oct 28 18:35:48 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 00:35:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Roger Holmes mystery machine (Flossie) is.. In-Reply-To: <C1692E10.9356%aek@bitsavers.org> References: <C1692E10.9356%aek@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1155.192.168.0.4.1162078548.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, October 28, 2006 11:56 pm, Al Kossow said: > > http://web.onetel.com/~rodritab/open_day.htm > > ICT 1301 > > Nice pics of the Ampex drives at the bottom. Must admit I liked that writeup so much I ignored the crimes against apostrophe's :o)) I can recognise the enthusiasm though, even though my own stuff is home micro based (1972 - 1998) my daughter's friends at school still want to know about the 'old days', heh, only 30 years ago eh! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Oct 28 18:48:52 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 00:48:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: ict1301.co.uk In-Reply-To: <C1692FDA.9358%aek@bitsavers.org> References: <C1692FDA.9358%aek@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1189.192.168.0.4.1162079332.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sun, October 29, 2006 12:03 am, Al Kossow said: > > > http://ict1301.co.uk/13012006.htm > > A bit more up to date than the previous url Hm, I'm driving through Kent later on today, I wonder if I could call in and have a visit? :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ohh at drizzle.com Sat Oct 28 19:05:01 2006 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 17:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: H960 question, and part available In-Reply-To: <000d01c6faa4$55467820$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0610281658350.29900-100000@cascadia.drizzle.com> Jay West wrote: > One of my H960's actually came to me with a fan already installed in the > top. I have a few loose fans, and my other H960 has no fan so I'm getting > ready to install one of those condor fans in my H960. I am wondering if the > H960 fans at the top are supposed to pull air in, or push air out? I'm more > interested in how DEC actually shipped them rather than "it'll work either > way". > > I checked my H960 and it's set to pull air in from the outside downward into > the rack. Of course I have no way of knowing if that's how it originally > was, or if some collector/scrap person put it in backwards themselves. > Anyone set me straight on this? I suspect that's how it's supposed to be > given the channel on top for an air filter of some type. I'm in the early stages of work on a PDP-12, and found that one of the two ceiling fans was disconnected - turns out it has a bad squeak; I suspect they unhooked it so they didn't have to listen to it - and discovered, to my surprise, that both fans are set to suck air downward. So not a _definitive_ answer, but certainly another data point suggesting yours is normal. :) -O.- From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 28 19:35:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 17:35:35 -0700 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <20061028160550.F99648@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1GdaoJ-000IyUC@p850ug1>, <45429F41.4860.33B10967@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061028160550.F99648@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <454394E7.381.37709D8A@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Oct 2006 at 16:26, Fred Cisin wrote: > A pretty good description (one of the very few that doesn't try to > coverup Gary's final incident), but, with a few flaws: Yeah, I picked up on the gaffes, too. Weak on the technical accuracy, but as far as the people-to-people story goes, not bad. DRI (not to be confused with the Texas outfit) certainly had an OEM program back then--I've got their OEM licensing packet from 1982 or thereabouts (wonder what that would fetch on ePay)--their rates were quite reasonable and allowed for various purchase arrangements, so I never did understand the $240 story myself. Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Sat Oct 28 20:53:16 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 21:53:16 -0400 Subject: Coincidence or not? Message-ID: <000301c6fafd$00f58c80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I was just watching "Building the Ultimate" on the Science Channel. They were explaining how truckers use high-tech communications systems. They showed a portable terminal that drivers use inside the cab and .... it looked quite similar to a Convergent Workslate! Anyone else see that? From josefcub at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 21:21:24 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 21:21:24 -0500 Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <1138.192.168.0.4.1162077896.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <200610280551.k9S5omfu061443@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5FA2C9ED-3BDD-4798-9216-4957F3958743@microspot.co.uk> <1138.192.168.0.4.1162077896.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <9e2403920610281921t7f30add9s1f9061e6811e9583@mail.gmail.com> > On Sat, October 28, 2006 10:07 pm, Roger Holmes said: > > I do not have the largest number of computers, I am asking are the > > computers at my home the > > largest in a private collection? My machines are not even home This thread is making me and my Data General Eclipse MV/7800 two-rack mini feel inadequate. ;) -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From useddec at gmail.com Sat Oct 28 21:24:09 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 21:24:09 -0500 Subject: H960 question, and part available In-Reply-To: <000d01c6faa4$55467820$6700a8c0@BILLING> References: <000d01c6faa4$55467820$6700a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <624966d60610281924s7660aa6cna864deb2153051c7@mail.gmail.com> Hi Jay, I believe they were shipped from the factory with the fans blowing downward, thus the channels to hold the filter on top of the cab.The thought might have been not to bring contaminants up from the floor, and there was enough airflow to dissipate the heat. Not all computer rooms were really clean. If the customer had a raised computer floor, the filters were taken off and the fans reversed, to work with the clean air coming in from the bottom. Paul Anderson On 10/28/06, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > One of my H960's actually came to me with a fan already installed in the > top. I have a few loose fans, and my other H960 has no fan so I'm getting > ready to install one of those condor fans in my H960. I am wondering if > the > H960 fans at the top are supposed to pull air in, or push air out? I'm > more > interested in how DEC actually shipped them rather than "it'll work either > way". > > I checked my H960 and it's set to pull air in from the outside downward > into > the rack. Of course I have no way of knowing if that's how it originally > was, or if some collector/scrap person put it in backwards themselves. > Anyone set me straight on this? I suspect that's how it's supposed to be > given the channel on top for an air filter of some type. > > Also, I'm working on the last H960 for my collection, and I have leftover > one of the antitip feet that stick out the front. If you're standing in > front of the front of the rack facing it - it's the right leg. Anyone > wants > it - cost = shipping. > > Jay West > > From wizard at voyager.net Sun Oct 29 00:23:53 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 01:23:53 -0400 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <200610281800.TAA32301@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200610281800.TAA32301@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <1162099433.22466.20.camel@linux.site> On Sat, 2006-10-28 at 19:00 +0100, Stan Barr wrote: > * I wrote and maintained some small business software for the TRS-80 > in the early days. Computers were very new to most people at that time > and users required a lot of (profitable) hand-holding! Indeed! My first professional consulting was with a physician in Hawaii, where I lived at the time. I would go over to his house on his days off (always weekdays) and swim in his pool and discuss computers. He picked my brain quite a bit, but it was far and away the most pleasant working conditions I've EVER had. Oddly enough, he got all my input on the subject, and totally ignored it, after paying me about a grand, total. (This was pre-Carter, so a grand was REAL money.) He skipped CP/M, (which I was backing) and got a Radio Shack, with optional diskette drives. He also got one of those weird printers that burnt a silver layer off of black paper to make a mark. By the time he paid for that he had paid more than a CP/M system would have cost, and did not have the expandability. I asked him, as diplomatically as possible, why he had bought a system that would do less, for more money, from RS. His response was that he was greatly comforted by the superior warranty that the RS had. That was a good point... except that he, on the same day, gave me a kit he had purchased, which included a ROM and some support chips, to hack onto his motherboard so that he could have lower case letters. I pointed out that doing that would void his warranty, and was told to go ahead anyway. *SIGH* After about a year, he totaled up what he had spent on his computer, and pointed out to me that he had spent about twice what a CP/M system would have cost him for the same functionality. He also asked me if there was a way to run CP/M on his RS machine, as all the business software he saw was written for CP/M, and most of it did not have RS versions. I bit my tongue until it bled, literally. I just thought I'd pass this on, as it combines your comments on hand-holding with the recent RS thread... </ramble mode> Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Oct 29 01:15:04 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 23:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Coincidence or not? In-Reply-To: <000301c6fafd$00f58c80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> from Evan Koblentz at "Oct 28, 6 09:53:16 pm" Message-ID: <200610290615.k9T6F4K7011894@floodgap.com> > I was just watching "Building the Ultimate" on the Science Channel. They > were explaining how truckers use high-tech communications systems. They > showed a portable terminal that drivers use inside the cab and .... it > looked quite similar to a Convergent Workslate! I love those. I'm trying to figure out how to hack mine. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Remember, kids: for great justice take off every zig! ---------------------- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 28 11:11:53 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 12:11:53 -0400 Subject: The Origins of DOS Message-ID: <0J7U00JZ0SXB5WV7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: The Origins of DOS > From: "Chandra Bajpai" <cbajpai at comcast.net> > Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 11:10:20 -0400 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > >How big was the TRS-80 Market to support all thoses DOSes? In the first year of sales the total was over 250,000 units. I'd suspect that by in year three (1981) there were at least 25-50,000 of those capable of supporting a disk and possibly more. The big three of disk based systems were: CP/M (multiple platforms) Apple (appledos) TRS-80 (TRSDOS, Newdos, LDOS) NS* Horizon (s100) NS*DOS (also cp/m) Not in any order. There wer others but volumes were generally far lower. >I remember when NewDOS/80 and I just remember it being fast. Any idea who >wrote that? That was the Apparat version if memory serves. Allison >-Chandra > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Fred Cisin >Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:24 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: The Origins of DOS > >On Fri, 27 Oct 2006, Warren Wolfe wrote: >> [TRS-DOS] >> It was its own universe, Jim. The links and questionable parentage >> of the original version of DOS are tied directly to CP/M, which was the >> first O/S for personal computers that any significant number of >> businesses embraced. And, Windows came out of the DOS world, and now >> dominates as few products have dominated before. (Note: I am NOT >> claiming this is a GOOD thing.) >> >> From what I can tell, TRSDOS was not a rip-off of anyone's software, >> and nobody bothered to rip it off, so it's pretty much out of the world >> of O/S scandal. > >There WERE several imitators of TRS-DOS (although still for TRS-80), >including NEWDOS, DOSPLUS, and the semi-legitimate offspring LDOS. > >> It actually was pretty decent, and had a few ideas of >> merit that didn't make it into the mainstream world for a while. It was >> just totally tied to Radio Shack computing, and suffered a mortal wound >> when IBM came out with their PC. No fault of its own. > >Rasio Shack AVOIDED expanding TRS-DOS into other semi-related hardware >platforms. > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 28 11:30:49 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 12:30:49 -0400 Subject: The Origins of DOS Message-ID: <0J7U00EL1TSUE0U6@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: The Origins of DOS > From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" <jim.isbell at gmail.com> > Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 10:27:19 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >TRS DOS market was prety big at the time. To begin with it was the >ONLY desktop computer available in the mass marked....almost two years >if memory serves me well. There were several "mini" computers around, >but nothing like the RS computer with 8k of memory and a tape system >for probgam loading/saving and BASIC. >From inside Tandy (at that time) te most common units sold had 16k and the L2 (12k) Basic with the 16k L1 basic using being a close second. Rare was the 4k with L2. As to 8k that was either a user hack or one of a short lived flavor using halfgood 16k parts both of which were far less common. >From experience and being active in computer world of the time S100 was the workhorse systems as were early Apple][ with disk and RS had volumes of (>200,000 first year of sales) of the basic 4kl1 systems. That was the 1978 view. By 1980 Apple][ with disk, TRS80 with EI and disk were by far very prevelent though S100 crates were still being used widely. Apple and RS were dualing for the then infant personal desktop computer market and had put a lot (n > 50,000 with disks) of machines out there. The market from what I'd seen went from near 0 (under 10,000 home computers existed) in 1974(december) to somewhere over 1,000,000 (possibly far more) by December of 1979. Explosive growth! Several things drove this. Lower cost of hardware that included some mass storage(minifloppy). Availability of more user friendly packaged systems(no soldering or kits). The availability of software applications editors, high level languages, software development packages and of course the killer apps of early desktop word processing [Electric pencil, Wordstar] and spreadsheets [visicalc]. Allison > >On 10/28/06, Chandra Bajpai <cbajpai at comcast.net> wrote: >> >> How big was the TRS-80 Market to support all thoses DOSes? >> >> I remember when NewDOS/80 and I just remember it being fast. Any idea who >> wrote that? >> >> -Chandra >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of Fred Cisin >> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:24 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: The Origins of DOS >> >> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006, Warren Wolfe wrote: >> > [TRS-DOS] >> > It was its own universe, Jim. The links and questionable parentage >> > of the original version of DOS are tied directly to CP/M, which was the >> > first O/S for personal computers that any significant number of >> > businesses embraced. And, Windows came out of the DOS world, and now >> > dominates as few products have dominated before. (Note: I am NOT >> > claiming this is a GOOD thing.) >> > >> > From what I can tell, TRSDOS was not a rip-off of anyone's software, >> > and nobody bothered to rip it off, so it's pretty much out of the world >> > of O/S scandal. >> >> There WERE several imitators of TRS-DOS (although still for TRS-80), >> including NEWDOS, DOSPLUS, and the semi-legitimate offspring LDOS. >> >> > It actually was pretty decent, and had a few ideas of >> > merit that didn't make it into the mainstream world for a while. It was >> > just totally tied to Radio Shack computing, and suffered a mortal wound >> > when IBM came out with their PC. No fault of its own. >> >> Rasio Shack AVOIDED expanding TRS-DOS into other semi-related hardware >> platforms. >> >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com >> >> > > >-- >Jim Isbell >"If you are not living on the edge, well then, >you are just taking up too much space." From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Oct 28 16:21:49 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 22:21:49 +0100 Subject: I'm back! (plus power component questions) In-Reply-To: <200610282047.k9SKl32A065740@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200610282047.k9SKl32A065740@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4543C9ED.5020100@gjcp.net> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > While poking around inside the Dreamcast > games consoles I noticed some familiar > components which I has seen similar versions > of in my Amiga. > The first one is what I have dubbed the "power > towers" and they look like vertical batteries. > Usually come in groups of 5. Can anyone tell > me there name and/or what they do? Probably electrolytic capacitors. They'll have a stripe indicating the negative side, and a voltage and capacitance rating. They are used in the power supply sections to smooth out the voltage. They fail - the ends start to bulge and they leak conductive goo. This causes all manner of problems, including random crashes and resets. It's worth making sure none are on the way out, and possibly just replacing them with similar ones. Let's face it, you can hardly make it work any less, just unlikely to ever work again. > The second thing is the erm... plastic(?) "polo > mint" that has what appears to be copper > wire wrapped around it. Can anyone give me > (or send me in the right direction to find) > any information on it. It's a choke. The plastic bit is made of ferrite, which is a sort of magnetic ceramic material. Again, it's a power supply thing, used to stop high-frequency interference making its way out through the power leads. Gordon. From jim at covington.name Sun Oct 29 07:39:50 2006 From: jim at covington.name (Jim Covington) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 08:39:50 -0500 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <0J7U00JZ0SXB5WV7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0J7U00JZ0SXB5WV7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4544AF26.8050204@covington.name> I think that's an overall TRS-80 sales volume, not year 1. Several sources on the web support this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRS-80 http://computing.marzopolis.com/70s/tandy-trs-80.php http://www.thepeoplehistory.com/tandytrs80.html http://www.trs-80.com/trs80-1.htm Allison wrote: >> Subject: RE: The Origins of DOS >> From: "Chandra Bajpai" <cbajpai at comcast.net> >> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 11:10:20 -0400 >> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> >> >> How big was the TRS-80 Market to support all thoses DOSes? >> > > In the first year of sales the total was over 250,000 units. I'd suspect > that by in year three (1981) there were at least 25-50,000 of those capable of > supporting a disk and possibly more. > > > The big three of disk based systems were: > > CP/M (multiple platforms) > Apple (appledos) > TRS-80 (TRSDOS, Newdos, LDOS) > NS* Horizon (s100) NS*DOS (also cp/m) > > Not in any order. There wer others but volumes were generally far lower. > > > >> I remember when NewDOS/80 and I just remember it being fast. Any idea who >> wrote that? >> > > That was the Apparat version if memory serves. > > Allison > > >> -Chandra >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of Fred Cisin >> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:24 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: The Origins of DOS >> >> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006, Warren Wolfe wrote: >> >>> [TRS-DOS] >>> It was its own universe, Jim. The links and questionable parentage >>> of the original version of DOS are tied directly to CP/M, which was the >>> first O/S for personal computers that any significant number of >>> businesses embraced. And, Windows came out of the DOS world, and now >>> dominates as few products have dominated before. (Note: I am NOT >>> claiming this is a GOOD thing.) >>> >>> From what I can tell, TRSDOS was not a rip-off of anyone's software, >>> and nobody bothered to rip it off, so it's pretty much out of the world >>> of O/S scandal. >>> >> There WERE several imitators of TRS-DOS (although still for TRS-80), >> including NEWDOS, DOSPLUS, and the semi-legitimate offspring LDOS. >> >> >>> It actually was pretty decent, and had a few ideas of >>> merit that didn't make it into the mainstream world for a while. It was >>> just totally tied to Radio Shack computing, and suffered a mortal wound >>> when IBM came out with their PC. No fault of its own. >>> >> Rasio Shack AVOIDED expanding TRS-DOS into other semi-related hardware >> platforms. >> >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com >> > > > From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 09:49:36 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 09:49:36 -0600 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <1162099433.22466.20.camel@linux.site> References: <200610281800.TAA32301@citadel.metropolis.local> <1162099433.22466.20.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <b0295dbe0610290749t30431b38xb6e5ef1801f9e7f2@mail.gmail.com> Well, I had similar experience with a doctor that I consulted for, not about RS vs CPM, but just in general in that doctors will not take direction. They have been trained that they are Gods and therefore must make all their own decisions. I consulted with this guy for years on how to implement software to do all his billing and financial work. What ever software I wrote for him he would take home and rewrite it, thought he was a programmer also, then complain to me that it didnt work right. On 10/28/06, Warren Wolfe <wizard at voyager.net> wrote: > On Sat, 2006-10-28 at 19:00 +0100, Stan Barr wrote: > > > > * I wrote and maintained some small business software for the TRS-80 > > in the early days. Computers were very new to most people at that time > > and users required a lot of (profitable) hand-holding! > > > Indeed! My first professional consulting was with a physician in > Hawaii, where I lived at the time. I would go over to his house on his > days off (always weekdays) and swim in his pool and discuss computers. > He picked my brain quite a bit, but it was far and away the most > pleasant working conditions I've EVER had. Oddly enough, he got all my > input on the subject, and totally ignored it, after paying me about a > grand, total. (This was pre-Carter, so a grand was REAL money.) He > skipped CP/M, (which I was backing) and got a Radio Shack, with optional > diskette drives. He also got one of those weird printers that burnt a > silver layer off of black paper to make a mark. By the time he paid for > that he had paid more than a CP/M system would have cost, and did not > have the expandability. I asked him, as diplomatically as possible, why > he had bought a system that would do less, for more money, from RS. His > response was that he was greatly comforted by the superior warranty that > the RS had. That was a good point... except that he, on the same day, > gave me a kit he had purchased, which included a ROM and some support > chips, to hack onto his motherboard so that he could have lower case > letters. I pointed out that doing that would void his warranty, and was > told to go ahead anyway. *SIGH* > > After about a year, he totaled up what he had spent on his computer, > and pointed out to me that he had spent about twice what a CP/M system > would have cost him for the same functionality. He also asked me if > there was a way to run CP/M on his RS machine, as all the business > software he saw was written for CP/M, and most of it did not have RS > versions. I bit my tongue until it bled, literally. I just thought I'd > pass this on, as it combines your comments on hand-holding with the > recent RS thread... </ramble mode> > > > > Peace, > > Warren E. Wolfe > wizard at voyager.net > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Oct 29 10:04:53 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 10:04:53 -0600 Subject: Only a few weeks left to save items Message-ID: <003d01c6fb73$f9a70040$3f406b43@66067007> Winter is coming fast and the donor in GA will not hold on too much longer. The museum still needs the help of about 145 people to donate $10 each to save the computer collection in GA from going to the scraper. You can learn more about the items we are trying save on our website www.houstoncomputermuseum.org. We are a 501 (c) (3) nonprofit and can send you a tax receipt for your donation. If you do not have $10 send us whatever you can be it one dollar or two, heck we will take your $2 winning lottery ticket. Thanks again to everyone that has helped us in the past in our effort to save classic computers and related items. If you would like to donate hardware, manuals, pictures, or whatever contact us. Thanks John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 29 05:28:43 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 05:28:43 -0600 Subject: ict1301.co.uk In-Reply-To: <1189.192.168.0.4.1162079332.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <C1692FDA.9358%aek@bitsavers.org> <1189.192.168.0.4.1162079332.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4544906B.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> Witchy wrote: > On Sun, October 29, 2006 12:03 am, Al Kossow said: >> >> http://ict1301.co.uk/13012006.htm >> >> A bit more up to date than the previous url > > Hm, I'm driving through Kent later on today, I wonder if I could call in > and have a visit? :) I'm pretty sure that's the machine which some of our lot from Bletchley went to see earlier this year (I think I was in the US at the time) - Steve got some nice video of it all which was accessible to our group. I've definitely got a local copy back in the UK; I can check with the relevant people once I'm back in the UK and upload it somewhere if necessary... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 29 05:36:09 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 05:36:09 -0600 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <200610281800.TAA32301@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200610281800.TAA32301@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <45449229.50509@yahoo.co.uk> Stan Barr wrote: > Hi, > > Jules Richardson said: > >> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: >>>> OK, where did TRSDOS fit in? It was before MSDOS as far as sale to the public. >>> TRS-DOS, Apple-DOS, and CP/M were the three biggest players in >>> MICROcomputers before MS-DOS came along. >> Although both TRS-DOS and Apple-DOS were pretty much insignificant outside of >> the US, I would have thought. I don't think RS or Apple ever could have >> developed a world market the way the CP/M guys did. >> > > Both Apple and RS were big enough in the uk circa 1978/9 on to support a > number of dedicated hardware and software suppliers. Both were used > quite a bit by small businesses* that couldn't afford cp/m kit, as > well as hobbyists like me. (I got a TRS-80 Model 1 around the beginning > of '78 - still got it...) > The Apple II was also rebadged and marketed by ITT, in a silver case IIRC. That's interesting, because I don't know where they've all gone! We see far more surviving CP/M machines and things like Nascoms and equivalents than we do Apple and RS systems in the UK. That would suggest that people tossed out the Apple and RS stuff, but held on to other machines for some reason. Later on of course UK people seem to have largely made do with the same 8 bit machines that the games / education market used - I get the impression that the acceptance of IBM PCs and compatibles happened *much* sooner in the US than it did elsewhere. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 29 05:46:33 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 05:46:33 -0600 Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <9e2403920610281921t7f30add9s1f9061e6811e9583@mail.gmail.com> References: <200610280551.k9S5omfu061443@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5FA2C9ED-3BDD-4798-9216-4957F3958743@microspot.co.uk> <1138.192.168.0.4.1162077896.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <9e2403920610281921t7f30add9s1f9061e6811e9583@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45449499.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> Josef Chessor wrote: >> On Sat, October 28, 2006 10:07 pm, Roger Holmes said: >> > I do not have the largest number of computers, I am asking are the >> > computers at my home the >> > largest in a private collection? My machines are not even home > > This thread is making me and my Data General Eclipse MV/7800 two-rack > mini feel inadequate. ;) :-) The question of who has the smallest computer might be an interesting one. Whilst in later years the technology allowed machines to pack a lot more electronics into the case, the physical size didn't really decrease much - and in a lot of cases got bigger (quite often due to built-ins like disk drives that didn't *need* to be part of the main system). I suppose my Acorn System One is probably my smallest system - two Eurocards, about 100 x 160 x 30mm in size, complete with built-in keypad, display, tape, and expansion interfaces. My Sinclair ZX81 is probably next - but of course lacks a display so needs a TV in order to really be useful... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 29 05:55:41 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 05:55:41 -0600 Subject: Roger Holmes mystery machine (Flossie) is.. In-Reply-To: <C1692E10.9356%aek@bitsavers.org> References: <C1692E10.9356%aek@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <454496BD.2080904@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > I've been pondering the fact there is so little communications with the UK > old iron folks recently. By and large they're a quiet bunch :) I'm keeping tabs on quite a few big systems in private hands at the moment - they're out there and being looked after, but the owners aren't interested in the publicity. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 29 11:56:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 09:56:43 -0800 Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <45449499.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200610280551.k9S5omfu061443@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <9e2403920610281921t7f30add9s1f9061e6811e9583@mail.gmail.com>, <45449499.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45447ADB.31535.3B29C7AA@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2006 at 5:46, Jules Richardson wrote: > The question of who has the smallest computer might be an interesting one. > Whilst in later years the technology allowed machines to pack a lot more > electronics into the case, the physical size didn't really decrease much - and > in a lot of cases got bigger (quite often due to built-ins like disk drives > that didn't *need* to be part of the main system). I think you need look no further than your moble phone or perhaps your wristwatch.... :) The mobile probably has far more computing power--and quite possibly (depending on mode) more storage and a higher-resultion display. A friend brought over his newly-purchased PC to get his old stuff from his Socket-7 Pentium system migrated. It was an eye opener as to what was going in bottom-of-the line desktop machines. SATA drives (no parallel ATA available), no serial or parallel ports, no expansion slots other than for the video and a modem card. There was a floppy connector on the mobo, but I have no idea if it supported 1 or 2 floppies. Since his old machine didn't have a network card (and I didn't want to go through the trouble of installing one), I just burned all of this important data on a CD-R and handed it to him. If the manufacturers ever get the display thing licked (e.g. by direct project onto the user's retina) and the keyboard thing done (no, I don't consider texting on a mobile the optimum keyboard entry method), I suspect that we'll all be using mobiles for routine computing tasks shortly. That will make the current desktop PCs seem almost as unwieldly as the computing behemoths of the 50's. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 29 11:25:29 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 10:25:29 -0700 Subject: Large machines in private hands Message-ID: <C16A3219.9406%aek@bitsavers.org> >> I've been pondering the fact there is so little communications with the UK >> old iron folks recently. > > By and large they're a quiet bunch :) I'm keeping tabs on quite a few big > systems in private hands at the moment - they're out there and being looked > after, but the owners aren't interested in the publicity. -- The same appears to be true over here. I know of very few big iron collectors here. I thought I'd here about more working at CHM, but if they're out there, they don't have any contacts with the Museum either. I keep hoping someone has some private stash of mainframe software, but it hasn't surfaced yet. It was interesting to talk to Doron while he was here about the relationship between the Science Museum and CCS. From josefcub at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 12:37:05 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 12:37:05 -0600 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers Message-ID: <9e2403920610291037u24d5fa08x4152b880462f781e@mail.gmail.com> On 10/29/06, Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > :-) > I suppose my Acorn System One is probably my smallest system - two Eurocards, > about 100 x 160 x 30mm in size, complete with built-in keypad, display, tape, > and expansion interfaces. > > My Sinclair ZX81 is probably next - but of course lacks a display so needs a > TV in order to really be useful... > > cheers > > Jules > Would my Microchip PIC18F1320s count? They're 18-pin DIP packages with built-in serial port (USART), RAM, EEPROM data storage... But of course it requires a tiny amount of support circuitry and a PC to burn useful software onto it. (I did, however, have one hooked up to a terminal to play Tic Tac Toe, though ;) My actual smallest whole computer are probably my Apple Newton MessagePads (OMP, 110, or 130). Second to that is my Dauphin DTR-1 with keyboard and pen, and the last of the complete small systems are probably my Epson PX-8s, and my TRS-80 Model 100s. I miss my Timex Sinclair 1000. Poor thing got stepped on by a careless friend one day... Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 12:52:51 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 13:52:51 -0500 Subject: Only a few weeks left to save items In-Reply-To: <003d01c6fb73$f9a70040$3f406b43@66067007> References: <003d01c6fb73$f9a70040$3f406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <ddc584f50610291052w74d328e8o8943c0c34f1576db@mail.gmail.com> It might be me, but I think if you can provide a list of computers that are going to be rescued by this trip, you might have a better chance to recruit enough people to donate. Furthermore, a few photos of the current collection on the webpage will be helpful too. I browsed the webpage and found not much more than the donation message. vax, 9000 On 10/29/06, Keys <jrkeys at concentric.net> wrote: > > Winter is coming fast and the donor in GA will not hold on too much > longer. > The museum still needs the help of about 145 people to donate $10 each to > save the computer collection in GA from going to the scraper. You can > learn > more about the items we are trying save on our website > www.houstoncomputermuseum.org. We are a 501 (c) (3) nonprofit and can send > you a tax receipt for your donation. If you do not have $10 send us > whatever > you can be it one dollar or two, heck we will take your $2 winning lottery > ticket. Thanks again to everyone that has helped us in the past in our > effort to save classic computers and related items. If you would like to > donate hardware, manuals, pictures, or whatever contact us. Thanks John > > From charlesmorris at hughes.net Sun Oct 29 13:07:34 2006 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 14:07:34 -0500 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <200610291801.k9TI0vQ5085505@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200610291801.k9TI0vQ5085505@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <hgu9k21ochjat0er1eq20ms8g4qpkd0c9v@4ax.com> On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 12:01:01 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >Well, I had similar experience with a doctor that I consulted for, not >about RS vs >CPM, but just in general in that doctors will not take direction. >They have been trained that they are Gods and therefore must make all >their own decisions. Just in general you're full of crap. It's nice to see that you conclude that all 570,000 of us won't take direction from programmers or anyone else, based on your large, well-designed trial with 1 physician. Admittedly there are indeed some doctors who think that because they can make life and death decisions that they are good at making other decisions too. Unfortunately I must have missed the class where they taught us how to be "Gods". Incidentally that attitude is not, of course, limited to doctors. Maybe some programmers think they're the only ones who know how to write code that works, too. Charles Morris, MD WB3JOK From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 13:46:33 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 13:46:33 -0600 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <hgu9k21ochjat0er1eq20ms8g4qpkd0c9v@4ax.com> References: <200610291801.k9TI0vQ5085505@dewey.classiccmp.org> <hgu9k21ochjat0er1eq20ms8g4qpkd0c9v@4ax.com> Message-ID: <b0295dbe0610291146q487b43afm43904eca71c0b34b@mail.gmail.com> Well, arent we??? On 10/29/06, Charles <charlesmorris at hughes.net> wrote: > On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 12:01:01 -0600 (CST), you wrote: > Incidentally that attitude is not, of course, limited to doctors. > Maybe some programmers think they're the only ones who know how to > write code that works, too. > > Charles Morris, MD > WB3JOK > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Oct 29 12:19:05 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 18:19:05 +0000 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 29 Oct 2006 05:36:09 CST." <45449229.50509@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200610291819.SAA05930@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jules Richardson said: > Stan Barr wrote: > > Both Apple and RS were big enough in the uk circa 1978/9 on to support a > > number of dedicated hardware and software suppliers. Both were used > > quite a bit by small businesses* that couldn't afford cp/m kit, as > > well as hobbyists like me. (I got a TRS-80 Model 1 around the beginning > > of '78 - still got it...) > > The Apple II was also rebadged and marketed by ITT, in a silver case IIRC. > > That's interesting, because I don't know where they've all gone! We see far > more surviving CP/M machines and things like Nascoms and equivalents than we > do Apple and RS systems in the UK. That would suggest that people tossed out > the Apple and RS stuff, but held on to other machines for some reason. > They still crop up, TRS-80s anyway. There are a couple on eBay atm, including a 4P, the (trans)portable one that I might put in a bid for. > Later on of course UK people seem to have largely made do with the same 8 bit > machines that the games / education market used - I get the impression that > the acceptance of IBM PCs and compatibles happened *much* sooner in the US > than it did elsewhere. IBM PCs were a bit expensive* for the home or samll business user until clones appeared, but they were bought in some numbers by larger firms. I remember examining some of the first ones in the country at an exhibition and being very underwhelmed by MSDOS :-) Our firm bought a number of ATs as soon as they became available, I've still got a low-numbered UK one I got from work, built late '85 I think, two full-height 20Mb disks. * In 1982 IBM PCs were advertised at "from 2,800 pounds" (at about 2 dollars to the pound, I think) for a dual floppy machine with monitor. That would buy you two Apples with dual floppies and monitors and still leave change. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 29 15:25:53 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 13:25:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <9e2403920610291037u24d5fa08x4152b880462f781e@mail.gmail.com> References: <9e2403920610291037u24d5fa08x4152b880462f781e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061029131414.H49309@shell.lmi.net> On 10/29/06, Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > I suppose my Acorn System One is probably my smallest system - two Eurocards, > > about 100 x 160 x 30mm in size, complete with built-in keypad, display, tape, > > and expansion interfaces. > > My Sinclair ZX81 is probably next - but of course lacks a display so needs a > > TV in order to really be useful... On Sun, 29 Oct 2006, Josef Chessor wrote: > My actual smallest whole computer are probably my Apple Newton > MessagePads (OMP, 110, or 130). Second to that is my Dauphin DTR-1 > with keyboard and pen, and the last of the complete small systems are > probably my Epson PX-8s, and my TRS-80 Model 100s. I miss my Timex Epson RC20: Z80 computer in wrist watch form factor Nobody ever ported CP/M to it. Serial port "ROM Roader" (which I don't have): external unit to copy EPROMs into it through the serial port Ruputer: palm pilot like computer in wrist watch form factor Fossil: Palm OS 4.1 in wrist watch form factor. USB port -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bear at typewritten.org Sun Oct 29 15:51:44 2006 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 13:51:44 -0800 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <20061029131414.H49309@shell.lmi.net> References: <9e2403920610291037u24d5fa08x4152b880462f781e@mail.gmail.com> <20061029131414.H49309@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <10E4768E-9179-437D-A32B-62E137B18E08@typewritten.org> On Oct 29, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Fossil: Palm OS 4.1 in wrist watch form factor. USB port That would be the Fossil "Abacus". It also has I/R. It's a bit big for a watch, but no bigger than the old-school Casio wrist calculator. I picked one up when Amazon was closing them out at $50. It's been rather handy. Battery life is rotten, as you might expect--- about 26 to 28 hours. I have to charge mine every night. I'm a Mac user so the Zaurus was a non-starter, though I didn't find that out until after I bought an SL-5600. I carried around my PowerBook G4 for a while, because it worked better and was less of a pain in the butt than the Zaurus. The Abacus has been a fair Godsend in that regard. I don't think I would have paid full retail for one when it was new, but having my entire calendar and address book on my wrist is pretty great. It even has a tiny stylus in the wristband. Not on topic yet though. ok bear From fryers at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 16:31:59 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 23:31:59 +0100 Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <45447ADB.31535.3B29C7AA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200610280551.k9S5omfu061443@dewey.classiccmp.org> <9e2403920610281921t7f30add9s1f9061e6811e9583@mail.gmail.com> <45449499.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> <45447ADB.31535.3B29C7AA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <c86833ca0610291431q3c54e361q42034f5804cf1c7a@mail.gmail.com> Hey All, On 10/29/06, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > On 29 Oct 2006 at 5:46, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > The question of who has the smallest computer might be an interesting one. > > Whilst in later years the technology allowed machines to pack a lot more > > electronics into the case, the physical size didn't really decrease much - and > > in a lot of cases got bigger (quite often due to built-ins like disk drives > > that didn't *need* to be part of the main system). > > I think you need look no further than your moble phone or perhaps > your wristwatch.... :) > > The mobile probably has far more computing power--and quite possibly > (depending on mode) more storage and a higher-resultion display. Strange you should say that. While working on an old sun 3 system earlier in the year I was using a PC as a TFTP and NFS server. The PC was fitted with USB sockets. My mobile is fitted with a 1GB MMC card and wants to behave as a USB mass storage device if you connect the comms cable and live with the defaults. So, suddenly the thought struck me, I can use my mobile as a boot device (disk at least) for a sun 3 system. And my phone (Nokia 3260i, Australian firmware) is a bit smaller and lighter than the average Fujitsu Eagle! Didn't quite implement it, but when I do I'll take some photos and add them to a web page somewhere. [...] Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 29 16:53:44 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 14:53:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <10E4768E-9179-437D-A32B-62E137B18E08@typewritten.org> References: <9e2403920610291037u24d5fa08x4152b880462f781e@mail.gmail.com> <20061029131414.H49309@shell.lmi.net> <10E4768E-9179-437D-A32B-62E137B18E08@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <20061029144718.L49896@shell.lmi.net> > > Fossil: Palm OS 4.1 in wrist watch form factor. USB port On Sun, 29 Oct 2006, r.stricklin wrote: > That would be the Fossil "Abacus". It also has I/R. Actually, both "Fossil" AND "Abacus" were brand name labels for the same product. It was made by Fossil, and the "cheaper" version was sold under their "Abacus" brand name. > It's a bit big for a watch, but no bigger than the old-school Casio > wrist calculator. It is much larger than the Casio CFX40/400. It is a little larger than the Epson RC20. But, it is slightly smaller than the Ruputer. > I picked one up when Amazon was closing them out at > $50. It's been rather handy. Battery life is rotten, as you might > expect--- about 26 to 28 hours. I have to charge mine every night. yeah. and I'm going to have to set up a newer micro, since it only has USB (and IR) to synch with. > It even has a tiny stylus in the wristband. Not on topic yet though. It has been almost 10 years since it was first announced (and delivery was "delayed") :-) From evan at snarc.net Sun Oct 29 17:34:46 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 18:34:46 -0500 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <20061029131414.H49309@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <001801c6fbb2$d1c77ca0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I have a collection of approximately 50 electronic organizers, "pocket" computers, and PDAs from the mid-1970s to early 1990s. Now I'm getting into Big Iron .... vintage laptops. Hey, it's all relative!! :) -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin [mailto:cisin at xenosoft.com] Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 4:26 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Collections of (physically) small computers On 10/29/06, Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > I suppose my Acorn System One is probably my smallest system - two > > Eurocards, about 100 x 160 x 30mm in size, complete with built-in > > keypad, display, tape, and expansion interfaces. > > My Sinclair ZX81 is probably next - but of course lacks a display so > > needs a TV in order to really be useful... On Sun, 29 Oct 2006, Josef Chessor wrote: > My actual smallest whole computer are probably my Apple Newton > MessagePads (OMP, 110, or 130). Second to that is my Dauphin DTR-1 > with keyboard and pen, and the last of the complete small systems are > probably my Epson PX-8s, and my TRS-80 Model 100s. I miss my Timex Epson RC20: Z80 computer in wrist watch form factor Nobody ever ported CP/M to it. Serial port "ROM Roader" (which I don't have): external unit to copy EPROMs into it through the serial port Ruputer: palm pilot like computer in wrist watch form factor Fossil: Palm OS 4.1 in wrist watch form factor. USB port -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 29 17:22:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 23:22:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: I'm back! (plus power component questions) In-Reply-To: <200610282319.k9SNJdtF069620@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Oct 28, 6 06:19:42 pm Message-ID: <m1GeJzI-000IySC@p850ug1> > > > > --- Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > > The first one is what I have dubbed the "power > > > towers" and they look like vertical batteries. > > > Usually come in groups of 5. Can anyone tell > > > me there name and/or what they do? > > > > Sound like electrolytic capacitors. They act as > > energy storage devices, > > ahhhh. I thought I felt a little electric charge > when I held my finger on the top of one for > a few seconds (power was off at the time, > but it had been on about 10 minutes earlier). You want to be careful here. A common tyoe of power supply, called a switch-mode power supply starts out by rectifying (using diodes) and smoothing (using electrolytic capacitors) the mains, producing about 350V DC. When the power supply is connected to the mains, that voltage can easily kill you. Even when the machine is unplugged, the stored charge in those capacitors can be unpleasant, and may cause injury/damage. People who know mw know I have little time for daft safety rules, but I do treat the mains side of a switch-mode power supply with great respect. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 29 17:25:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 23:25:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <9e2403920610281921t7f30add9s1f9061e6811e9583@mail.gmail.com> from "Josef Chessor" at Oct 28, 6 09:21:24 pm Message-ID: <m1GeK2G-000IyUC@p850ug1> > > > On Sat, October 28, 2006 10:07 pm, Roger Holmes said: > > > I do not have the largest number of computers, I am asking are the > > > computers at my home the > > > largest in a private collection? My machines are not even home > > This thread is making me and my Data General Eclipse MV/7800 two-rack > mini feel inadequate. ;) And my PDP11/45 (2 6' racks, 2 free-standing RK07s, and what started out as a MINC contianing 2 RL01s, with the realtime I/O of the MINC linked to the PDP11/45 via a DW11-B Unibus-Qbus interface). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 29 17:45:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 23:45:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <9e2403920610291037u24d5fa08x4152b880462f781e@mail.gmail.com> from "Josef Chessor" at Oct 29, 6 12:37:05 pm Message-ID: <m1GeKL9-000IyeC@p850ug1> > > > > Would my Microchip PIC18F1320s count? They're 18-pin DIP packages :-). More seriously, I think we need to define 'computer'. It should be user-programmable (which rules out most watches and cellular phones). It should have alphanumeric (and not just numeric) I/O. It should be complete, not needing a terminal or TV, or something like that (well, you can have those, but you have to count their volume as part of the size of the computer) In which case, small computers from my collection include HP95LX, HP100LX (both palmtops with an 80x88 processor), HP41 (yes, it was claimed to be a calculator, but it has the features mentioned above, the hardware architecture is the same as just about any other microcomputer, and I rouitinely link mine to a pen plotter, disk drive, inkjet printer, video display, etc. Not that any of thsoe are needed to use the machine), HP71B. Oh heck, they're all HPs... The smallest machine I have with a CRT display is probably the HP9816 (even if you include the volume of the 9122 disk drive it boots from). That is one beautiful small 68000 machine. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 29 18:05:36 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 16:05:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <m1GeKL9-000IyeC@p850ug1> References: <m1GeKL9-000IyeC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20061029160419.M49896@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 29 Oct 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > More seriously, I think we need to define 'computer'. a very risky endeavor > It should be user-programmable (which rules out most watches and cellular > phones). OK > It should have alphanumeric (and not just numeric) I/O. KIM-1? > It should be complete, not needing a terminal or TV, or something like > that (well, you can have those, but you have to count their volume as > part of the size of the computer) OK From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 29 18:26:35 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 18:26:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: I'm back! (plus power component questions) Message-ID: <200610300026.k9U0QZg1010427@keith.ezwind.net> --- Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > > > The first one is what I have dubbed the "pow er > > > > towers" and they look like vertical batterie s. > > > > Usually come in groups of 5. Can anyone tell > > > > me there name and/or what they do? > > > > > > Sound like electrolytic capacitors. They act a s > > > energy storage devices, > > > > ahhhh. I thought I felt a little electric charge > > when I held my finger on the top of one for > > a few seconds (power was off at the time, > > but it had been on about 10 minutes earlier). > > You want to be careful here. A common tyoe of powe r > supply, called a > switch-mode power supply starts out by rectifying > (using diodes) and > smoothing (using electrolytic capacitors) the main s, > producing about 350V > DC. When the power supply is connected to the main s, > that voltage can > easily kill you. Even when the machine is unplugge d, > the stored charge in > those capacitors can be unpleasant, and may cause > injury/damage. > > People who know mw know I have little time for daf t > safety rules, but I > do treat the mains side of a switch-mode power > supply with great respect. > > -tony > Yeah, after touching it the first time I thought that that should be the last time. How would you go about replacing them, if you needed to? Would it be safe after a week of no power, or would the risk of electricution be just as bad? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 18:33:20 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 13:33:20 +1300 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <20061029160419.M49896@shell.lmi.net> References: <m1GeKL9-000IyeC@p850ug1> <20061029160419.M49896@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0610291633q459421f5ge32b7a3d6466f7b6@mail.gmail.com> On 10/30/06, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: > On Sun, 29 Oct 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > > More seriously, I think we need to define 'computer'. > > a very risky endeavor A slippery-slope indeed. > > It should have alphanumeric (and not just numeric) I/O. > KIM-1? One can do alpha on a 7-segment display, plus one could connect a TVT-6 "TV Typewriter" to a KIM-1 without too much difficulty (installing the "upstream tap" being the most invasive step). I think the point here was to differentiate simple "four-banger calculators" from computing devices, not to exclude something that is by nearly all definitions a "computer". Think of the basic Elf design - the primary display is a pair of LED hex displays (TIL-311 or similar HP displays) - unlike a KIM's soft-driven 7-segment LEDs, a TIL-311 can *only* display 0-9/A-F, hardly full alphanumeric, but who would dispute an Elf is a computer? -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 29 18:41:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 16:41:17 -0800 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <m1GeKL9-000IyeC@p850ug1> References: <9e2403920610291037u24d5fa08x4152b880462f781e@mail.gmail.com> from "Josef Chessor" at Oct 29, 6 12:37:05 pm, <m1GeKL9-000IyeC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4544D9AD.20191.3C9C2A82@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2006 at 23:45, Tony Duell wrote: > More seriously, I think we need to define 'computer'. Says who? If it can do I/O and has CPU and memory, what doesn't make it a computer? Let's play by your rules. Your definitions immediately let in iPAQs, Blackberries, Palms, and quite a few other devices. How about the HTC Meteor smartphone? Llots of programs available there--and with more processor horsepower than most "vintage" "computers". Does anyone have a "computer" (by Tony's rules) lighter than 120g? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 29 18:48:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 16:48:02 -0800 Subject: Resistor-protected-fuses Message-ID: <4544DB42.20747.3CA25936@cclist.sydex.com> While repairing a floppy drive with a shorted a bypass cap, I noticed that the manufacturer had very thoughtfully inserted a picofuse in the DC supply line. Predictably, it was the 10 ohm resistor in series with the voltage regulator that turned to toast. The fuse is none the worse for wear. This brought to mind an old friend who earned her living as a field engineer for DEC. At one point, she mentioned that resistor- and transistor-protected fuses were a regular pattern for DEC equipment. This would be back in the early 70's, BTW. Did her observation reflect reality? Are there any other manufacturers that routinely engaged in this practice? Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 18:54:33 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 13:54:33 +1300 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collections of (physically) large computers) Message-ID: <f4eb766f0610291654q67869be3qcaa63aa7ff64cd7d@mail.gmail.com> On 10/30/06, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > And my PDP11/45 (2 6' racks, 2 free-standing RK07s, and what started out > as a MINC contianing 2 RL01s, with the realtime I/O of the MINC linked to > the PDP11/45 via a DW11-B Unibus-Qbus interface). Niiiice. What I/O modules do you have, and are you using them for anything? I have a MINC-11 (that's just a MINC), but only one or two lab modules. I really can't do much with it in its present configuration except use it as a rather ordinary RT-11 box. I've always wanted to find some of the modules and do something "interesting" but I can't imagine what that might be without a pile of boards staring me in the face imploring me to find a use. -ethan From evan at snarc.net Sun Oct 29 19:02:25 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 20:02:25 -0500 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <4544D9AD.20191.3C9C2A82@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <001d01c6fbbf$10a85370$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I say any automated mechanism for doing math is a computer. Size, speed, memory, I/O, features, analog v. digital -- all just details and qualifications. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 7:41 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Collections of (physically) small computers On 29 Oct 2006 at 23:45, Tony Duell wrote: > More seriously, I think we need to define 'computer'. Says who? If it can do I/O and has CPU and memory, what doesn't make it a computer? Let's play by your rules. Your definitions immediately let in iPAQs, Blackberries, Palms, and quite a few other devices. How about the HTC Meteor smartphone? Llots of programs available there--and with more processor horsepower than most "vintage" "computers". Does anyone have a "computer" (by Tony's rules) lighter than 120g? Cheers, Chuck From mross666 at hotmail.com Sun Oct 29 19:15:09 2006 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 01:15:09 +0000 Subject: Nice System/36 5360 needs saving Message-ID: <BAY122-F50F3C91CE922A58C69E5489FA0@phx.gbl> There's a nice, very complete, 5360 on ebay, starting at $0. Believe it's in ?Kansas?. Seller seems a good guy - hope someone saves this. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130041937602 Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ Try Search Survival Kits: Fix up your home and better handle your cash with Live Search! http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmtagline From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 29 19:30:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 17:30:04 -0800 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <001d01c6fbbf$10a85370$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <4544D9AD.20191.3C9C2A82@cclist.sydex.com>, <001d01c6fbbf$10a85370$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <4544E51C.9436.3CC8D4FF@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2006 at 20:02, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I say any automated mechanism for doing math is a computer. Well, IIRC, the ANSI X3J3 (FORTRAN) spec says that a human being is also considered to be a "computer" as well. :) But I'm hardly lighter than 120g, nor smaller than a smartphone! Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Sun Oct 29 19:35:46 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 20:35:46 -0500 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <4544E51C.9436.3CC8D4FF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <002301c6fbc3$b940e430$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I assume we're talking about the machine definition of "computer" and not the previous definition of "a person who computes." -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 8:30 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Collections of (physically) small computers On 29 Oct 2006 at 20:02, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I say any automated mechanism for doing math is a computer. Well, IIRC, the ANSI X3J3 (FORTRAN) spec says that a human being is also considered to be a "computer" as well. :) But I'm hardly lighter than 120g, nor smaller than a smartphone! Cheers, Chuck From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Oct 29 19:36:33 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 20:36:33 -0500 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <4544E51C.9436.3CC8D4FF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4544D9AD.20191.3C9C2A82@cclist.sydex.com> <001d01c6fbbf$10a85370$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <4544E51C.9436.3CC8D4FF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <ddc584f50610291736v72f0cd94gf5f6cc8911f5f765@mail.gmail.com> On 10/29/06, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > > On 29 Oct 2006 at 20:02, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > > I say any automated mechanism for doing math is a computer. > > Well, IIRC, the ANSI X3J3 (FORTRAN) spec says that a human being is > also considered to be a "computer" as well. :) But I'm hardly > lighter than 120g, nor smaller than a smartphone! Then how about my pet hamster? or my pet cricket? They are computers too. Cheers, > Chuck > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 29 19:47:34 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 17:47:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <ddc584f50610291736v72f0cd94gf5f6cc8911f5f765@mail.gmail.com> References: <4544D9AD.20191.3C9C2A82@cclist.sydex.com> <001d01c6fbbf$10a85370$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <4544E51C.9436.3CC8D4FF@cclist.sydex.com> <ddc584f50610291736v72f0cd94gf5f6cc8911f5f765@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061029174637.W49896@shell.lmi.net> > More seriously, I think we need to define 'computer'. > > > I say any automated mechanism for doing math is a computer. > Then how about my pet hamster? or my pet cricket? They are computers too. From evan at snarc.net Sun Oct 29 19:48:43 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 20:48:43 -0500 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <ddc584f50610291736v72f0cd94gf5f6cc8911f5f765@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002a01c6fbc5$881c8f60$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Okay, okay, an automated MAN-MADE mechanism for doing math. A brain is not a computer. It's just a highly improbable biological coincidence. -----Original Message----- From: 9000 VAX [mailto:vax9000 at gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 8:37 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Collections of (physically) small computers On 10/29/06, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > > On 29 Oct 2006 at 20:02, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > > I say any automated mechanism for doing math is a computer. > > Well, IIRC, the ANSI X3J3 (FORTRAN) spec says that a human being is > also considered to be a "computer" as well. :) But I'm hardly lighter > than 120g, nor smaller than a smartphone! Then how about my pet hamster? or my pet cricket? They are computers too. Cheers, > Chuck > > From evan at snarc.net Sun Oct 29 19:51:56 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 20:51:56 -0500 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <20061029174637.W49896@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <002d01c6fbc5$fb3b89b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Even more seriously ..... why? -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin [mailto:cisin at xenosoft.com] Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 8:48 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Collections of (physically) small computers > More seriously, I think we need to define 'computer'. > > > I say any automated mechanism for doing math is a computer. > Then how about my pet hamster? or my pet cricket? They are computers too. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 29 19:58:44 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 17:58:44 -0800 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <ddc584f50610291736v72f0cd94gf5f6cc8911f5f765@mail.gmail.com> References: <4544D9AD.20191.3C9C2A82@cclist.sydex.com>, <4544E51C.9436.3CC8D4FF@cclist.sydex.com>, <ddc584f50610291736v72f0cd94gf5f6cc8911f5f765@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4544EBD4.3367.3CE31263@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Oct 2006 at 20:36, 9000 VAX wrote: > Then how about my pet hamster? or my pet cricket? They are computers too. Yes, but the real question is "Can they read the FORTRAN 90 spec?" :) Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 29 20:03:36 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 18:03:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <4544EBD4.3367.3CE31263@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4544D9AD.20191.3C9C2A82@cclist.sydex.com>, <4544E51C.9436.3CC8D4FF@cclist.sydex.com>, <ddc584f50610291736v72f0cd94gf5f6cc8911f5f765@mail.gmail.com> <4544EBD4.3367.3CE31263@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061029180249.E49896@shell.lmi.net> > > Then how about my pet hamster? or my pet cricket? They are computers too. On Sun, 29 Oct 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yes, but the real question is "Can they read the FORTRAN 90 spec?" :) If that's the requirement, then hansters, crickets, and college administrators do not qualify. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 29 20:05:03 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 21:05:03 -0500 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collections of (physically) large computers) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0610291654q67869be3qcaa63aa7ff64cd7d@mail.gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0610291654q67869be3qcaa63aa7ff64cd7d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <82CA3E44-875F-4595-A951-ACA9F624C594@neurotica.com> On Oct 29, 2006, at 7:54 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have a MINC-11 (that's just a MINC), but only one or two lab > modules. I really can't do much with it in its present configuration > except use it as a rather ordinary RT-11 box. I've always wanted to > find some of the modules and do something "interesting" but I can't > imagine what that might be without a pile of boards staring me in the > face imploring me to find a use. I too have a MINC-11, currently sitting in storage. I hope to hack on it soon, when I have more space at home. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 29 20:47:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 02:47:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <20061029160419.M49896@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 29, 6 04:05:36 pm Message-ID: <m1GeNB8-000IySC@p850ug1> > > On Sun, 29 Oct 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > > More seriously, I think we need to define 'computer'. > > a very risky endeavor Yes, agreed :-) > > It should have alphanumeric (and not just numeric) I/O. > KIM-1? Surely a KIM1 can have a serial port added, whereas most calculators can't (and those that can could probably be classed as computers). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 29 20:50:43 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 02:50:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: I'm back! (plus power component questions) In-Reply-To: <200610300026.k9U0QZg1010427@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Oct 29, 6 06:26:35 pm Message-ID: <m1GeNEc-000IySC@p850ug1> > Yeah, after touching it the first time I thought > that that should be the last time. How would > you go about replacing them, if you needed to? > Would it be safe after a week of no power, or > would the risk of electricution be just as bad? Well, electrolytic capacitors are inherently 'leaky' -- that is, they appear to have a resistor in parallel which will discharge them. Also, any decent [1] swithc mode power supply design would have 'bleeder resistors' connected across the main electrolytic capacitors to discharge them [1] But a lot of SMPSUs are not 'decent'.... Therefore, what I'd do is connect a voltmeter across each of the mains smoothing capacitors in turn, and if there was significant voltage (say >10V), O would connect a 10k resistor (or thereabouts) across said capacitor to discharge it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 29 20:56:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 02:56:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Resistor-protected-fuses In-Reply-To: <4544DB42.20747.3CA25936@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 29, 6 04:48:02 pm Message-ID: <m1GeNKL-000IySC@p850ug1> > > While repairing a floppy drive with a shorted a bypass cap, I noticed > that the manufacturer had very thoughtfully inserted a picofuse in > the DC supply line. Predictably, it was the 10 ohm resistor in > series with the voltage regulator that turned to toast. The fuse is > none the worse for wear. You were lucky, considering that resistors are cheaper and easier to get than picofuses... > This brought to mind an old friend who earned her living as a field > engineer for DEC. At one point, she mentioned that resistor- and > transistor-protected fuses were a regular pattern for DEC equipment. > This would be back in the early 70's, BTW. > > Did her observation reflect reality? Are there any other > manufacturers that routinely engaged in this practice? It's certainly the case for transistors, which fail very quickly when overloaded (much more quickly than even 'FF' fuses). It's a well-known fact to those that repair SMPUS that the chopper will fail long before the fuse does (Actually, I beleive the fuse is there to prevent the whole thing catching fire, not to protect components in the supply). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 29 21:01:51 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 03:01:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collections of (physically) large computers) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0610291654q67869be3qcaa63aa7ff64cd7d@mail.gmail.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 30, 6 01:54:33 pm Message-ID: <m1GeNPO-000IySC@p850ug1> > > On 10/30/06, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > And my PDP11/45 (2 6' racks, 2 free-standing RK07s, and what started out > > as a MINC contianing 2 RL01s, with the realtime I/O of the MINC linked to > > the PDP11/45 via a DW11-B Unibus-Qbus interface). > > Niiiice. What I/O modules do you have, and are you using them for anything? I actually have 3 MINCs. Two are the RL01 version (one of those has had the CPU and memory PCBs pulled and one end of a DW11-B inserted to link it to the 11/45). The other is a MINC-23 (with a PDP11/23 CPU) and an RX02 drive. As regards I/O modules, I think the first 2 each have : MNCAD Analogue to digital converter MNCAA Digital to analogue converter 2 off MNCDI Digital input 2 off NMCDO Digital output MNCKW Clock The last one has MNCTP Thermocouple amplifier MNCAG amplifier (current/voltage/resistance inputs) MNCAD Analouge to digital converter MNCAA Digital to analouge converter MNCDI Digital input MNCDO Digitial output MNCKW Clock I am particularly pleased that I have more than one clock, since 2 in the same machine can be used to make a frequency counter. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 29 21:03:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 03:03:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <4544E51C.9436.3CC8D4FF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 29, 6 05:30:04 pm Message-ID: <m1GeNRH-000IycC@p850ug1> > Well, IIRC, the ANSI X3J3 (FORTRAN) spec says that a human being is > also considered to be a "computer" as well. :) But I'm hardly > lighter than 120g, nor smaller than a smartphone! That, I believe was the original definition (particularly in the sense of 'somebody who operates a computing machine'). Similarly a 'Typewriter' was a person who operates a typing machine. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Oct 29 21:23:20 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 21:23:20 -0600 Subject: paging jerome fine Message-ID: <010801c6fbd2$c0abdb30$6a00a8c0@HPLAPTOP> My email address for Jerome Fine is dead.... anyone have a working email for him please email me offlist! Jay West From legalize at xmission.com Sun Oct 29 21:35:34 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 20:35:34 -0700 Subject: Only a few weeks left to save items In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 29 Oct 2006 13:52:51 -0500. <ddc584f50610291052w74d328e8o8943c0c34f1576db@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <E1GeNvy-00035W-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <ddc584f50610291052w74d328e8o8943c0c34f1576db at mail.gmail.com>, "9000 VAX" <vax9000 at gmail.com> writes: > It might be me, but I think if you can provide a list of computers that are > going to be rescued by this trip, you might have a better chance to recruit > enough people to donate. [...] I agree. The more information the better. I did find this on the web page, but the info is still pretty slim: "Here's a partial listing of what is being offered: GA - IBM 083 card sorter, IBM 552 card interpreter (2), 029 and 129 key punches (5), various IBM patch boards (many), repair parts for unit record equipment (many) Tektronix scope, various SWTP S100 systems (many), and many other goodies." When asking people to help out, even with a tax deduction, the more information the better. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> From wpileggi at juno.com Mon Oct 30 01:02:49 2006 From: wpileggi at juno.com (Bill Pileggi) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 07:02:49 GMT Subject: Apple Macintosh LC complete offered Message-ID: <20061029.230343.717.844664@webmail53.lax.untd.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: <http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20061030/932f7bba/attachment.ksh> From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Oct 30 01:14:39 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 02:14:39 -0500 Subject: Apple Macintosh LC complete offered References: <20061029.230343.717.844664@webmail53.lax.untd.com> Message-ID: <00cf01c6fbf3$1372c070$0b01a8c0@game> What software is available? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Pileggi" <wpileggi at juno.com> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 2:02 AM Subject: Apple Macintosh LC complete offered > One of my customers gave me a complete Apple Macintosh LC circa 1991 in > VG condition. Monitor, computer, keyboard, mouse, O/S disks, plus other > software, she probably still has the manuals, too - will pick up same > when I visit her again. Anybody want it? Obviously not a problem to > ship from 19001. Bill/KA3AIS > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month! > Unlimited Internet Access with 1GB of Email Storage. > Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today! > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 29 13:30:01 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 14:30:01 -0500 Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers Message-ID: <0J7W00EKCWR4E7WB@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Collections of (physically) large computers > From: Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> > Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 05:46:33 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> >The question of who has the smallest computer might be an interesting one. >Whilst in later years the technology allowed machines to pack a lot more >electronics into the case, the physical size didn't really decrease much - and >in a lot of cases got bigger (quite often due to built-ins like disk drives >that didn't *need* to be part of the main system). > >I suppose my Acorn System One is probably my smallest system - two Eurocards, >about 100 x 160 x 30mm in size, complete with built-in keypad, display, tape, >and expansion interfaces. > >My Sinclair ZX81 is probably next - but of course lacks a display so needs a >TV in order to really be useful... > >cheers > >Jules Embedded ELF with serial/RTC/disk(128mb CF), Video(80x24), GPIO (PS2keyboard and 8255) in a stack filling a cube less than 5x5x4". Biggest comment is there is NO surface mount parts. The 5" crt monitor is fully three times the volume!! Second to that is my Z80 minimax. Z80, 64k ram, 128k romdisk, 128k ramdisk 2 serial ports running CP/M. All CMOS and very low power use. Both are way smaller than the PDP-11/73 with RL02, RX02 and 3 RD53in a 50" rack. Allison From jwhitton at bellsouth.net Sun Oct 29 13:40:48 2006 From: jwhitton at bellsouth.net (jwhitton) Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 14:40:48 -0500 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers References: <9e2403920610291037u24d5fa08x4152b880462f781e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002101c6fb92$22eb97e0$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> I have to chime in on this.., what about the various programmable calculators? I might reject those that are only capable of sequenced numeric functions, but items like the R/S pocket computers, and the TI-74 had it all. QWERTY keyboard, alphanumeric display, built-in BASIC, peripheral I/O interface. John From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Oct 30 01:33:10 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 07:33:10 +0000 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <001d01c6fbbf$10a85370$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001d01c6fbbf$10a85370$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <4545AAB6.2090505@gjcp.net> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Does anyone have a "computer" (by Tony's rules) lighter than 120g? That has memory, IO, and has a CPU? Well doesn't that make the matchbox-sized ECU that my Nissan had to tell it to turn on the "idle-up" solenoid when the headlights, heated rear window, heater fan or radiator fan came on? If I recall correctly that had one of the mask-programmed 6502 28-pin variants, a 6116 and some TTL buffers driving a big transistor. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Oct 30 01:42:35 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 07:42:35 +0000 Subject: Resistor-protected-fuses In-Reply-To: <4544DB42.20747.3CA25936@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4544DB42.20747.3CA25936@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4545ACEB.1010805@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Did her observation reflect reality? Are there any other > manufacturers that routinely engaged in this practice? Most guitar amplifiers. If you look at the power amp, you'll see that most have two big NPN power trannies driven by a cascaded NPN and PNP smaller power tranny. If one goes, all four go in a bizarre silicon suicide pact. Gordon From evan at snarc.net Mon Oct 30 04:58:00 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 5:58:00 -0500 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers Message-ID: <200610301058.k9UAwKfi031052@keith.ezwind.net> No, wasn't me who wrote that. -Evan From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Oct 30 06:56:55 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 04:56:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0 News Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0610300456310.14215@vintagetech.com> Vintage Computer Festival 9.0 Saturday, November 4 through Sunday, November 5 Computer History Museum Mountain View, California http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/ Howdy Folks! Just a few more days of meaningless toil and then you'll be in vintage computing heaven at VCF 9.0! Here are some new developments of which you might want to be aware... Workshop Schedule Correction The correct date for Vince Briel's Replica 1 SE Workshop is Saturday, November 4 at 10:00am. The workshop was previously listed as being on Sunday, November 5 on the workshop description page. We apologize if the misleading time has caused you any inconvenience. The reason we have the Replica 1 SE Workshop scheduled for Saturday at 10:00am is so that workshop attendees can have their completed Replica 1 SE ready to get signed by Woz after the Apple 30 Year Anniversary Celebration at 1:00pm on Saturday. The following workshop slots are still available: XGS Pico Edition Workshop - 5 COSMAC Elf 2000 Workshop - 6 Replica 1 SE Workhop - FULL Don't delay, sign up today! Slots are filling fast! http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/workshop.php Vintage Computer Film Festival This year we are launching the Vintage Computer Film Festival at the VCF. The VCFF is a showcase of films with a vintage computing or retro-technology theme. The screening schedule has been posted on the VCF 9.0 website: http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/film.php The Vintage Computer Film Festival is available to all VCF attendees as part of your regular admission. Sponsored by Oddball Film+Video: http://www.oddballfilm.com APL "1 CLEANSPACE" Anniversary Talk Added The APL BUG (APL Bay Area User's Group) in conjunction with the VCF is presenting a talk by Larry Breed on the origins of the programming language APL. The talk has been scheduled for 3:00pm on Saturday, November 4. APL BUG members wishing to attend only this session will not be required to pay admission to the VCF, though they are welcome to do so if they wish to enjoy the rest of the VCF festivities. Check the session schedule for complete session times and information: http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/session.php !!! Prizes and Giveaways !!! Processor Technology Sol-20 The Processor Technology Sol-20 "Terminal Computer", designed by Silicon Valley legend Lee Felsenstein, was one of the earliest fully integrated personal computers on the market, featuring the main processor, RAM, ROM, keyboard, video interface, serial and parallel ports, and cassette tape storage interface as standard features. Stan Sieler of Allego Consultants, a regular exhibitor, exhibit judge and VCF volunteer, has kindly donated a Sol-20 to give away at the Sol-20 celebration at 1:00pm on Sunday, November 5. Check the session schedule on the VCF 9.0 web pages for complete information. Located in San Jose, California, Allegro Consultants specializes in software, services, and consulting for clients with Hewlett-Packard PA-RISC based computers, the HP 3000 and HP 9000. http://www.allegro.com/ Briel Computers Replica 1 SE The Replica 1 SE is a functional clone of the original Apple 1 designed by Steve Wozniak. Vince Briel of Briel Computers has donated a Replica 1 SE to be given away at the Apple 30 Year Anniversary Celebration at 1:00pm on Saturday, November 4. Briel Computers offers more build-it-yourself vintage computer replica kits on their website: http://www.brielcomputers.com/ Minds On Toys Digi-Comp 1 (v2.0) Mechanical Computer Kit Tim Walker of Minds On Toys has created a build-it-yourself replica of the classic Digi-Comp 1, a 3-bit mechanical binary computer. The Digi-Comp 1 was originally sold in the 1960s and was made from cast plastic. The updated version sold by Minds On Toys is constructed from sturdy paper stock. Minds On Toys has donated a Digi-Comp 1 v2.0 to be given away at the VCF. Visit Minds On Toys on the web at: http://www.mindsontoys.com/kits.htm You Can Still Be An Exhibitor! Exhibit registration closes on November 1st. If you wanted to be an exhibitor at this year's VCF, now is the time to register before it's too late: http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/exhibit.php VOLUNTEERS NEEDED! We are in need of several volunteers for Friday evening setup and Sunday evening teardown. Setup on Friday begins at 8pm, and teardown on Sunday begins as soon as the VCF ends. Even if you can provide only fifteen minutes of your time, we can still use you. We've got a lot of work to do in a very short period of time this year so any help we can get would be greatly appreciated. We also need an audio/visual specialist to manage the projectors and recording equipment in the session chambers. This is a very important role so we need someone with experience working data projectors and MP3 players. We'll reward our gallant volunteer with free admission, t-shirts, and other goodies. To volunteer in any of these roles, please contact me directly (and soon) at <sellam at vintage.org>. Thanks! See You There! Complete information about VCF 9.0, including the speaker schedule, exhibit roster, end everything else can be found on the VCF 9.0 web pages: http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/ Best regards, Sellam Ismail Producer Vintage Computer Festival ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jim at covington.name Mon Oct 30 07:22:18 2006 From: jim at covington.name (Jim Covington) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 08:22:18 -0500 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <4545AAB6.2090505@gjcp.net> References: <001d01c6fbbf$10a85370$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <4545AAB6.2090505@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4545FC8A.2060004@covington.name> He also mentioned 'user-programmable' and 'alphanumeric I/O.' Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Does anyone have a "computer" (by Tony's rules) lighter than 120g? > > That has memory, IO, and has a CPU? Well doesn't that make the > matchbox-sized ECU that my Nissan had to tell it to turn on the > "idle-up" solenoid when the headlights, heated rear window, heater fan > or radiator fan came on? If I recall correctly that had one of the > mask-programmed 6502 28-pin variants, a 6116 and some TTL buffers > driving a big transistor. > > Gordon > From Laurence.Cuffe at ucd.ie Mon Oct 30 08:11:21 2006 From: Laurence.Cuffe at ucd.ie (Laurence Cuffe) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 14:11:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <4544D9AD.20191.3C9C2A82@cclist.sydex.com> References: <9e2403920610291037u24d5fa08x4152b880462f781e@mail.gmail.com> <m1GeKL9-000IyeC@p850ug1> <4544D9AD.20191.3C9C2A82@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <fa13bb2641a4.41a4fa13bb26@ucd.ie> ----- Original Message ----- From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> Date: Monday, October 30, 2006 7:20 am Subject: Re: Collections of (physically) small computers To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > On 29 Oct 2006 at 23:45, Tony Duell wrote: > > > More seriously, I think we need to define 'computer'. > > Says who? If it can do I/O and has CPU and memory, what doesn't > make > it a computer? > > Let's play by your rules. Your definitions immediately let in > iPAQs, > Blackberries, Palms, and quite a few other devices. How about the > HTC Meteor smartphone? Llots of programs available there--and with > more processor horsepower than most "vintage" "computers". > > Does anyone have a "computer" (by Tony's rules) lighter than 120g? Yup, Nokia 7610 118g, speaks C++ though you do have to cross compile. All the best Laurence Cuffe > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From safehaus at webhart.net Mon Oct 30 09:13:22 2006 From: safehaus at webhart.net (Greg Purvis) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 10:13:22 -0500 Subject: Printer Heads: How To Clean Without Wasting Ink Message-ID: <45461692.3010502@webhart.net> Hi Is there a way to clean printer heads from the outside, rather than allowing so much ink to be wasted by the machine blowing the ink through the heads to clean them. (This must be in a FAQ. I just need to be pointed to where this has been discussed a thousand times already.) A bit of background: I have an Epson CX6600 printer/scanner that has suddenly quit printing. The company sent the machine to me to replace an earlier model that developed the same problem. Maybe this machine has the same problem, or maybe it just needs head a more aggressive cleaning. I've "blown the jets" a few times, using over half the ink in the cartridges to do it, and the machine still barely leaves an image on the paper. (I keep a towel over my printers when I don't use them, and no one smokes in the house.) I'm hoping to avoid taking the time to crate and ship this machine as well. I'm not really interested in another replacement anyway. Thanks in advance for any help. Greg P. From paul0926 at comcast.net Mon Oct 30 07:32:06 2006 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 06:32:06 -0700 Subject: Nice System/36 5360 needs saving In-Reply-To: <BAY122-F50F3C91CE922A58C69E5489FA0@phx.gbl> References: <BAY122-F50F3C91CE922A58C69E5489FA0@phx.gbl> Message-ID: <FB0EE66C-A268-4F1E-97E4-76B12E76FDD8@comcast.net> I picked up the same setup for $1.00 earlier this year from a guy in Colorado. This one on eBay appears in much better condition except for the terminals which seem to have a fair amount of screen burn-in. The stuff is very heavy, especially the 5225. Don't expect to ship it, and don't expect to transport it in a pickup. You will need a truck with a lift gate, or a wide ramp (difficult to find) and low- profile deck (both units have wheels). If anyone goes for it, I can help you with a few basics (like hacking the memory to find the master security account/password, which you need if you want to do anything useful). I've restored mine as best I can (I'm too afraid to start removing cards from their cages because this stuff is so old). Good luck. Paul On Oct 29, 2006, at 6:15 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > There's a nice, very complete, 5360 on ebay, starting at $0. > Believe it's in ?Kansas?. Seller seems a good guy - hope someone > saves this. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130041937602 > > Mike > http://www.corestore.org From safehaus at webhart.net Mon Oct 30 09:36:47 2006 From: safehaus at webhart.net (Greg Purvis) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 10:36:47 -0500 Subject: Apple Macintosh LC complete offered In-Reply-To: <00cf01c6fbf3$1372c070$0b01a8c0@game> References: <20061029.230343.717.844664@webmail53.lax.untd.com> <00cf01c6fbf3$1372c070$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <45461C0F.2020301@webhart.net> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Pileggi" <wpileggi at juno.com> > To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 2:02 AM > Subject: Apple Macintosh LC complete offered > > > >> One of my customers gave me a complete Apple Macintosh LC circa 1991 in >> VG condition. Monitor, computer, keyboard, mouse, O/S disks, plus other >> software, she probably still has the manuals, too - will pick up same >> when I visit her again. Anybody want it? Obviously not a problem to >> ship from 19001. Bill/KA3AIS >> >> > How much would it cost to ship that to near Ottawa (K8A)? Thanks Greg P. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Oct 30 09:37:25 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 10:37:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Nice System/36 5360 needs saving In-Reply-To: <FB0EE66C-A268-4F1E-97E4-76B12E76FDD8@comcast.net> References: <BAY122-F50F3C91CE922A58C69E5489FA0@phx.gbl> <FB0EE66C-A268-4F1E-97E4-76B12E76FDD8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0610301035320.675@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 30 Oct 2006, Paul Heller wrote: > The stuff is very heavy, especially the 5225. Don't expect to ship it, and > don't expect to transport it in a pickup. You will need a truck with a lift > gate, or a wide ramp (difficult to find) and low-profile deck (both units > have wheels). After helping to move Mike Ross' 5360 from the truck into the exhibition hall at VCF East 3.0, I'll second that. Make sure you have at least 4 baggage handlers to help. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wizard at voyager.net Mon Oct 30 09:45:15 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 10:45:15 -0500 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <002a01c6fbc5$881c8f60$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <002a01c6fbc5$881c8f60$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <1162223115.22466.40.camel@linux.site> On Sun, 2006-10-29 at 20:48 -0500, Evan Koblentz wrote: > A brain is not a computer. It's just a highly improbable biological > coincidence. Yikes. This turned into a religious argument faster than I expected... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 30 04:52:27 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 04:52:27 -0600 Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <45447ADB.31535.3B29C7AA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200610280551.k9S5omfu061443@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <9e2403920610281921t7f30add9s1f9061e6811e9583@mail.gmail.com>, <45449499.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> <45447ADB.31535.3B29C7AA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4545D96B.7070602@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 Oct 2006 at 5:46, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> The question of who has the smallest computer might be an interesting one. >> Whilst in later years the technology allowed machines to pack a lot more >> electronics into the case, the physical size didn't really decrease much - and >> in a lot of cases got bigger (quite often due to built-ins like disk drives >> that didn't *need* to be part of the main system). > > I think you need look no further than your moble phone or perhaps > your wristwatch.... :) > > The mobile probably has far more computing power--and quite possibly > (depending on mode) more storage and a higher-resultion display. :-) I did wonder about setting some rules about what qualifies - but that's so hard to do. Personally I wouldn't consider a phone (somehow not 'general purpose' enough) or anything which called itself a calculator rather than a computer - but it's impossible to tie that down to specific rules without offending someone as there are bound to be exceptions :-) Hence freeform replies are perhaps better - it's just interesting to hear what people out there have. > If the manufacturers ever get the display thing licked (e.g. by > direct project onto the user's retina) and the keyboard thing done > (no, I don't consider texting on a mobile the optimum keyboard entry > method), I suspect that we'll all be using mobiles for routine > computing tasks shortly. Hmm, interesting to guess where things might go. If the retina thing doesn't happen I expect roll-up flexible keyboards and displays might become the norm. That or two 'sticks' on an X-Y axis could be used to read finger positions and to either project a display image or an image of a keyboard matrix. Personally I'm not so sure I'd get on with keyboards like that. Although there's been good and bad keyboards around over the years, anything's got to be better than touching either thin air or a solid object (remember trying to type on a ZX81 :-) > That will make the current desktop PCs seem almost as unwieldly as > the computing behemoths of the 50's. Possibly. But I wonder if the human brain's designed to cope (or can be trained to cope) with such things. Human biology is often something that gadget designers forget at the expense of making things ever smaller, faster, clearer. As an example, I can't stand watching TV on an LCD display because to my eyes it looks *too* crisp and sharp, resulting in something which looks unnatural to me even though it's technically so much 'better' than a CRT. Of course I don't think that most consumers thing of such things - they lap up the marketing hype and then live with the consequences without even thinking about them (particularly where the longevity of a product is concerned) cheers Jules From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Mon Oct 30 10:20:22 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 16:20:22 -0000 Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <4545D96B.7070602@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <000001c6fc3f$4cb41f90$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > ... Personally I wouldn't consider ... > anything which called itself a calculator > rather than a computer ... Now you are reminding me of some University politics from the 1970's. At the time I started work at City University there was a policy of "no departmental computers" (quite strongly enforced through the budgetry system). Unfortunately the net effect of this policy was that, instead of buying sensible PDP-11s and the like, the departments bought overpriced "data loggers" that just happened to come with BASIC or the like - it wouldn't surprise me if there were some "calculators" bought that were similar. As always the law of unintended consequences took charge. Andy From jplist at kiwigeek.com Mon Oct 30 10:56:50 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 10:56:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: Nice System/36 5360 needs saving In-Reply-To: <FB0EE66C-A268-4F1E-97E4-76B12E76FDD8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0610301055160.23950-100000@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 30 Oct 2006, Paul Heller wrote: > The stuff is very heavy, especially the 5225. Don't expect to ship > it, and don't expect to transport it in a pickup. You will need a > truck with a lift gate, or a wide ramp (difficult to find) and low- > profile deck (both units have wheels). Nonsense! http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/IBM_s34/PickUp/ Of course, not everyone is willing to redneck picking up something like that. Then again, I can't imagine it has that much value since no one here is willing to take it back off my hands ;) All things are possible, with a bit of imagination. JP From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 30 06:33:32 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 06:33:32 -0600 Subject: Compaq SLT286 available (south-east UK) Message-ID: <4545F11C.2060706@yahoo.co.uk> Any interest in a Compaq SLT286 'laptop'? We've been offered one, but as we have enough PC machines of this class I don't think there's any need for us to have it. The current owner's located in Chalfont St. Peter, although it sounds like he may be prepared to deliver within a reasonable distance. (A machine like this was my first exposure to the PC world - IDE disk, mono VGA display, 10MHz CPU I think, floppy drive, detachable keyboard; it was a pretty nice system I seem to recall) cheers Jules -- If you've ever wondered how you get triangles from a cow You need buttermilk and cheese, and an equilateral chainsaw From wizard at voyager.net Mon Oct 30 12:51:54 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 13:51:54 -0500 Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <4545D96B.7070602@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200610280551.k9S5omfu061443@dewey.classiccmp.org> , <9e2403920610281921t7f30add9s1f9061e6811e9583@mail.gmail.com> , <45449499.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> <45447ADB.31535.3B29C7AA@cclist.sydex.com> <4545D96B.7070602@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1162234314.21406.20.camel@linux.site> On Mon, 2006-10-30 at 04:52 -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, interesting to guess where things might go. If the retina thing doesn't > happen I expect roll-up flexible keyboards and displays might become the norm. > That or two 'sticks' on an X-Y axis could be used to read finger positions and > to either project a display image or an image of a keyboard matrix. Don't discount voice recognition and holographic display... Both of them are less intrusive, and require less mental mapping, than keyboards and roll-up displays. > Possibly. But I wonder if the human brain's designed to cope (or can be > trained to cope) with such things. Human biology is often something that > gadget designers forget at the expense of making things ever smaller, faster, > clearer. As an example, I can't stand watching TV on an LCD display because to > my eyes it looks *too* crisp and sharp, resulting in something which looks > unnatural to me even though it's technically so much 'better' than a CRT. Of COURSE the human brain is designed for that. How about reality? The real world is ever so much more complex, intricate, and detailed than our sensory receptors. More data can be provided than can be absorbed, and filed, as well. As to your stated distaste for clearer pictures, I cannot shoehorn any physical explanation for that into the situation, or vice versa. Unless you are viewing atrocious subject matter, which is better the less of it that one sees, I can only think of psychological reasons for not liking the increased resolution. Are you more comfortable thinking of Pi as "about three?" Do you prefer a Close-and-Play to a hi-fi system? Or, considering context, is it simply that you like older technology, irrespective of the abilities? Und, how lonk haff you velt zis way aboot yor muzzer? <laughing> > Of course I don't think that most consumers thin[k] of such things - they lap up > the marketing hype and then live with the consequences without even thinking > about them (particularly where the longevity of a product is concerned) If there really *IS* an improvement in picture quality, as you describe above, (there is) then it is NOT hype. Even the SYSTEM is better, when compared with NTSC or, in your case, PAL video, which place an upper limit on quality. Oh, sure, a real improvement can be hyped, but you imply "only hype" by your statement here. And, as to longevity, only time will tell. I still have (platonic) love for my old IMSAI and Monroe computers, but I don't hate the immensely more powerful Pentium descendant powering the Linux system I'm using to write this... I use it, and enjoy it, even if it is more complex than I can easily understand. Quite a few people have spent quite a few years making it easy to use such advanced technology, even if I don't understand it fully. Further, if anything, I dislike older displays with poor resolution, because they tended to give me a headache. The poorest resolution (besides my phone) screen I have is on my Monroe, and that is quite exceptionally clear and stable, albeit monochromatic. The scree clarity is one of the reasons I was drawn to the Monroe in the first place -- I could write without getting a headache. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Oct 30 03:06:19 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 09:06:19 +0000 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 29 Oct 2006 14:40:48 EST." <002101c6fb92$22eb97e0$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> Message-ID: <200610300906.JAA08767@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, jwhitton said: > I have to chime in on this.., what about the various programmable > calculators? I might reject those that are only capable of sequenced numeric > functions, but items like the R/S pocket computers, and the TI-74 had it > all. QWERTY keyboard, alphanumeric display, built-in BASIC, peripheral I/O > interface. I have a Sharp PC-1251 that fits that description. Even with the optional printer and cassette unit attached it's only about the same size as a ZX-81. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Oct 30 13:35:23 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 19:35:23 +0000 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collections of (physically) large computers) In-Reply-To: <82CA3E44-875F-4595-A951-ACA9F624C594@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <C16C047B.50E1%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 30/10/06 02:05, "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: > On Oct 29, 2006, at 7:54 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> find some of the modules and do something "interesting" but I can't >> imagine what that might be without a pile of boards staring me in the >> face imploring me to find a use. > > I too have a MINC-11, currently sitting in storage. I hope to > hack on it soon, when I have more space at home. Ditto! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Oct 30 13:26:08 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 19:26:08 +0000 Subject: ict1301.co.uk In-Reply-To: <4544906B.9010903@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <C16C0250.50E0%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 29/10/06 11:28, "Jules Richardson" <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >> Hm, I'm driving through Kent later on today, I wonder if I could call in >> and have a visit? :) > > I'm pretty sure that's the machine which some of our lot from Bletchley went > to see earlier this year (I think I was in the US at the time) - Steve got > some nice video of it all which was accessible to our group. Ah, I think you're right, in which case it'll be on JohnS' website..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From sdc695 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 30 12:38:12 2006 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 10:38:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cleaning out the garage. Message-ID: <20061030183812.77744.qmail@web60814.mail.yahoo.com> On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> Wrote: > On Sat, 28 Oct 2006, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > My wife sais, "you havent used it in 5 years junk it." I agreed. > My ex used to say that (except "SIX MONTHS"!) > I handed her the fire extinguisher. If you want to compete with someone who wants to dispose of your "Stuff" (there is a George Carlin goodie about this), just go to the female clothes closet and do a dated inventory. Those that are clothes conscious want to believe that things eventually will come back in fashion. Typically it takes MORE than five years (by my estimates). Then there are things that don't fit (NEVER respond to "Do I look fat in this?", you will lose!). Just about the only thing that goes obsolete as quickly as computers is high fashion. -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/) From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Oct 30 14:07:24 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 20:07:24 +0000 Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <200610290907.k9T96mIg080315@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200610290907.k9T96mIg080315@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <31E2944A-1BCD-4AEC-8D9A-246B55F3E2C3@microspot.co.uk> On 29 Oct, 2006, at 09:07, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 17:37:01 -0400 > From: "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com> > Subject: Re: Collections of (physically) large computers > >> OK, so how much floor space does his largest computer use? > > I am not sure, but from some pictures I have seen, he has a LOT of > stuff for his two IBM 709s. And then there is the 7094 system. And the > S/370 system. Each system may take up 500 square feet. I am impressed, the very first computer I wrote a program for was a 7094 installed at Imperial College, London. Later on I got to see it and they had a disc drive hooked up to it. There was a story about a disk platter shattering and the computer room being blasted with shrapnel. I remember it being unavailable for several months whilst they replaced every electrolytic capacitor in it. We got to use the CDC 6600 at the ULCC (University of London Computer Centre) whilst it was being repaired. We used the small Fortran compiler PUFFT (Purdue University Fast Fortran Translator) on the 7094. The size was certainly comparable with Flossie. Keeping one machine of this size running is a lot of work, the thought of keeping three running is daunting. > > For that matter, if I were to get all the stuff together for my > Hitachi AS/6 (A Japanese 3032 clone), it would probably not fit in 500 > square feet either. The processor is 21 feet long by three feet wide, > and does not contain any RAM or the channel I/O hardware. The six > spindle 3330 DASD string is 15 feet long by 4 feet wide. Then the > three tapes with controller is another 12 by 3 feet, then the card > reader and punch take up two more three by six footprints, then the > network box, then the 1403N printer, then the comm controller at five > by four, then the other comm controller at 3 by 3, then some more junk > I could hang off it if I wanted to. When you add this all up, then > figure in the space needed to open the doors and gates for servicing - > well, it is a large plot of land. Yes with access space it adds up. So I'm not the only nutter! > I think Sridhar is in the same boat. For that matter. that 4381 system > that sold on Ebay six months or so back would also fits (and sinks) in > that boat, having a couple good DASD strings. Ok so you do know different. Why is there so little discussion of these on the list? Is there a more appropriate list? Maybe as we all have different manufacturer's kit we have little to talk about, but we still face similar problems, thing like tracking down media, repairing peripherals, fault finding logic, keeping the machine clean and stopping them rusting, keeping the offline support stuff working - keypunches, Flexowriters, Teletypes etc, though maybe that is not a problem for you as your machine has a comms controller. > >> Flossie has well over 4,000 printed circuit >> boards and weighs about five tons. > > Pictures please! I don't think I'm supposed to post pictures to the list and I don't have a web site so the best I can do is to refer you to a picture someone else has made available. It is also very difficult to get a picture of all of Flossie as it is so very cramped in the barn. Here is an old picture of a very similar machine to mine, except it has four one inch tape decks whereas Flossie has six half inch decks. Also Flossie has paper tape I/O and three drums instead of one in the machine pictured. http://www.mikecurley-worked.netfirms.com/P3-2.jpg > > I am actually trying to buy a building so I can get all this junk > in one place. I am trying to extend my building so I can reassemble the second machine which will also give Flossie more space. No plans yet to get the second machine actually running, but maybe one day. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Oct 30 09:18:51 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 09:18:51 -0600 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <200610291819.SAA05930@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200610291819.SAA05930@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <454617DB.9060405@yahoo.co.uk> Stan Barr wrote: > Hi, > > Jules Richardson said: > >> Stan Barr wrote: > >>> Both Apple and RS were big enough in the uk circa 1978/9 on to support a >>> number of dedicated hardware and software suppliers. Both were used >>> quite a bit by small businesses* that couldn't afford cp/m kit, as >>> well as hobbyists like me. (I got a TRS-80 Model 1 around the beginning >>> of '78 - still got it...) >>> The Apple II was also rebadged and marketed by ITT, in a silver case IIRC. >> That's interesting, because I don't know where they've all gone! We see far >> more surviving CP/M machines and things like Nascoms and equivalents than we >> do Apple and RS systems in the UK. That would suggest that people tossed out >> the Apple and RS stuff, but held on to other machines for some reason. >> > > They still crop up, TRS-80s anyway. There are a couple on eBay atm, > including a 4P, the (trans)portable one that I might put in a bid for. Sure, I know they're still about in the UK - just in far fewer numbers than similar machines from the same timeframe. Maybe people were just subconsciously more likely to hang on to their CP/M system (because it was expensive) or their 8 bitter which didn't really have an OS (because they'd invested so much time in getting it to do what they wanted). >> Later on of course UK people seem to have largely made do with the same 8 bit >> machines that the games / education market used - I get the impression that >> the acceptance of IBM PCs and compatibles happened *much* sooner in the US >> than it did elsewhere. > > IBM PCs were a bit expensive* for the home or samll business user until > clones appeared, but they were bought in some numbers by larger firms. In the business world, the UK people seemed to 'make do' with what they already had to a far greater extent though; or rather that's the impression I've got. The home market was somewhat similar on both sides of the pond though, I believe... > * In 1982 IBM PCs were advertised at "from 2,800 pounds" (at about 2 dollars > to the pound, I think) for a dual floppy machine with monitor. That would > buy you two Apples with dual floppies and monitors and still leave change. Hmm, I have two, an original PC and an XT. *one* of those cost around 4000 pounds circa 1984, but unfortunately I don't know which. (I got them around 1992 from an old school; it took a while to organise as they were still down on the books as being worth the same money for which they'd been bought 8 years earlier :-) cheers Jules From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Oct 30 15:07:40 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 21:07:40 +0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 38, Issue 44 In-Reply-To: <200610290907.k9T96mIg080315@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200610290907.k9T96mIg080315@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <A874FF60-DA0F-4ED4-A868-05191D652BE8@microspot.co.uk> On 29 Oct, 2006, at 09:07, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 25 > Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2006 00:48:52 +0100 (BST) > From: "Witchy" <witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk> > Subject: Re: ict1301.co.uk > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: <1189.192.168.0.4.1162079332.squirrel at vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > > > On Sun, October 29, 2006 12:03 am, Al Kossow said: >> >> >> http://ict1301.co.uk/13012006.htm >> >> A bit more up to date than the previous url > > Hm, I'm driving through Kent later on today, I wonder if I could > call in > and have a visit? :) > > > -- > adrian/witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? I wish I'd seen your e-mail yesterday, you would have been very welcome to come. Sorry. I'm about eight miles from M20 junction 9 (Ashford West). If you come my way again, or anyone else on the list is in my neck of the woods and would like a look, could you e-mail me directly to save the delay of getting the digest, and try to give me a little advanced warning. I do not power Flossie up when the temperature is below about 13 degrees C as Germanium transistors are only rated down to 10 C and they are all now very old. Getting new GET872 transistors is almost impossible and even OA5 diodes are getting rare, the last I saw in the RadioSpares catalogue were a pound ($1.60 approx) each, and the machine has them by the thousand. Every word in the core store has two, so thats 4000 in each machine even before even thinking about the logic. If it wasn't for the price dropping when the supply rises I could be close to being a millionaire on the value of components alone! By the way, the above URL does have pictures of Flossie but it is very difficult to get a good picture at the moment - just not enough room around the machine. To access some parts is a major problem moving things around to make space so you can open the covers and get a scope and your body close to the machine. By the way, the storage scope probably has more processing power than the computer! From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 30 14:18:33 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 13:18:33 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems Message-ID: <C16BAC29.9556%aek@bitsavers.org> > Ok so you do know different. Why is there so little discussion of > these on the list? There are VERY VERY few people that have such systems. I only know of at most a dozen in the US, and most of them do not participate in on-line discussions. A few rairly use email. > Is there a more appropriate list? Maybe as we all have different > manufacturer's kit we have little to talk about, but we still face > Similar problems, thing like tracking down media, repairing peripherals, fault > finding logic, keeping the machine clean and stopping them rusting, > keeping the offline support stuff working - keypunches, Flexowriters, > Teletypes etc, though maybe that is not a problem for you as your > machine has a comms controller. The Computer History Museum is formalizing the restoration process, now that several machines have either been restored, or are in the process. Surviving systems from before 1975 are very rare animals, esp mainframes, since so many of them have been scrapped for precious metals. Sadly, there is even less software that has survived. CHM didn't start seriously collecting documentation nor software prior to the move to the West Coast in the 90's. While they have an impressive collection of hardware, and a pretty decent collection of US computer documentation now, the software holdings pre 1975 are minimal. I will be giving a talk at VCF this Saturday on the CHM software collection. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 30 16:34:58 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 14:34:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <C16BAC29.9556%aek@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Oct 30, 2006 01:18:33 PM Message-ID: <200610302234.k9UMYxHS011135@onyx.spiritone.com> > I will be giving a talk at VCF this Saturday on the CHM software collection. Will this be recorded and available for those of us that aren't able to attend? Zane From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 30 17:04:11 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 18:04:11 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <C16BAC29.9556%aek@bitsavers.org> References: <C16BAC29.9556%aek@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <e1d20d630610301504w47f58c7eodd47b77303d60767@mail.gmail.com> > There are VERY VERY few people that have such systems. I only know of at > most a dozen in the US, and most of them do not participate in on-line > discussions. A few rairly use email. Mainframe people also tend to be very introverted when it comes to computers. Even on the IBM-MAIN list (a list for current IBM mainframes), where a more than a few old timers are active, I tend to get shooed away. Go away kid, you bother me... > > Is there a more appropriate list? ClassicMainframes on yahoo, but it is next to dead. > Surviving systems from before 1975 are very rare animals, esp mainframes, > since so many of them have been scrapped for precious metals. I think for mainframes it is the machines *after* 1970 that are very rare. They just were not saved. People had the good sense to save some S/360s, but how many S/370s or 30xx series machines? The whole line of 20 years of IBM muscle computers is basically gone. The same is true for the Burroughs and Univac machines of the same era. The only mainframes of the era that did survive well are PDP-10s, and they are pretty far from the basic definition of mainframe - they are more like what we now call superminis. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 30 17:05:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 15:05:38 -0800 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <200610300906.JAA08767@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <Your message of "Sun, 29 Oct 2006 14:40:48 EST." <002101c6fb92$22eb97e0$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> >, <200610300906.JAA08767@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <454614C2.21649.416AEF96@cclist.sydex.com> Anent this business of mainframe iron, a rather surprising story about modern trends: http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/biztech/10/30/reviving.mainframes.ap/inde x.html Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 30 16:27:12 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 22:27:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Resistor-protected-fuses In-Reply-To: <4545ACEB.1010805@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Oct 30, 6 07:42:35 am Message-ID: <m1GefbF-000IyUC@p850ug1> > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Did her observation reflect reality? Are there any other > > manufacturers that routinely engaged in this practice? > > Most guitar amplifiers. If you look at the power amp, you'll see that > most have two big NPN power trannies driven by a cascaded NPN and PNP > smaller power tranny. If one goes, all four go in a bizarre silicon > suicide pact. I don;t think I've recently described the typical failure mode of the Boschert 2-satge SMPSU (on-topic, since it's used in classic computers, including the PERQ 1). I'll start by describing the basic circuit : Mains in is rectified and smoothed, giving 350V DC This feeds a (non-isolating) step-down switching regulator (using one chopper transsitor and an inductor). The output of this is around 150V (but see below) This feed as pair of chopper transistors which are coupled to a small transformer making a free-running oscillator, the freqeuncy of which is determined by the transfomer properties The output of that feeds the main chooper transformer, the secondaries of which are rectified and smoothed in the usual way. A voltage sense signal is taken from one of the outputs (almost always the +5V line), compared to a reference, and fed back (opto-isolator) across the isolation barrier. This controls the first step-down regulator, thus controlling the voltage to the second choppers, and thus the output. Oh yes, there's a current sense resistor in the first regulator circuit which will shut that chopper down (and thus remove the outputs) if there's an overload. Adn a crowbar on at least one of the outputs. Now for the failure mode : The chopper transistor in the first regulator circuit goes short-circuit. The otuput of this stage (should be 150V remember) leaps to 350V. The second choppers carry on working, so all the outputs try to go up to over twice their normal value. You'd better hope the crowbar fires... Let's assume it does. That short-circuits one of the outputs, thus causing a much higher current in the chopper circuit. This is detected by the overcurrent sense circuit, which removes the drive from the first regulator chopper. Alas that's what has shorted, so removing the drive doesn't do a darn thing!. The 2 second-stage choppers now go short-circuit. This means that across the 350V rectiifed mains you have essentially the 3 transistors (all dead short), some inductor and transformer windings (almost no DC resistance either) and the current sense resistor. The last burns out. This now applies 350V to the current sense inputs of the controller IC (a good old 723) which blows apart. Oh yes, a couple of small signal transistors blow up too, and a PCB track is blwon off the board. Finally the fuse fails And yes, I have seen the results of this happening, and indeed rebuilt the PSU. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 30 16:34:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 22:34:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <4545D96B.7070602@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 30, 6 04:52:27 am Message-ID: <m1Gefhr-000IycC@p850ug1> > I did wonder about setting some rules about what qualifies - but that's so > hard to do. Personally I wouldn't consider a phone (somehow not 'general > purpose' enough) or anything which called itself a calculator rather than a Oh, be careful there... At one time many companies had complex purchasing requirements for 'computers', but 'calculators' or 'programmed data processors' could be bought without too many formalities. So some computer companies deliberately didn't call their products 'computers' A case in point is the HP9830. It's called a 'Model 30 calculator' in many HP documents, in fact I think it's always refered to as a calculator. But this machine has a 16 bit (to a programmer, the hardware is bit-serial) processor, BASIC in ROM (with extension ROMs to add things like string variables, matrix operations, etc), a QWERTY keyboard, a one-line alphanumeric display, a built-in tape drive and RAM up to 16K bytes. There were optional parallel, serial and HPIB interfaces, and even a hard disk system. Is that a calculator? Sure sounds like a computer to me :-) If you're thinking of handheld colculators (as this thread would seem to require), what about the HP41. It's got an alphanumeric display, optional I/O (including RS232, HPIB, parallel ports, a plotter, disk drive, printers, tape drive, etc). It's user-programmable. It has a microprocessor at the middle of it. I think the distinction I normally use is often called 'keeper'. That's a pun on 'Key Per Function' meaning a calcultor has, say, a key labelled 'SIN', whereas on a computer you spell it out. Byt that definition the HP41 is a calculator (although you _can_ spell out the function names if you want to), the HP9830 most vertainly isn't. -tony From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Mon Oct 30 17:16:00 2006 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 23:16:00 +0000 Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <31E2944A-1BCD-4AEC-8D9A-246B55F3E2C3@microspot.co.uk> References: <200610290907.k9T96mIg080315@dewey.classiccmp.org> <31E2944A-1BCD-4AEC-8D9A-246B55F3E2C3@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <1162250160.27364.9.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Mon, 2006-10-30 at 20:07 +0000, Roger Holmes wrote: > Yes with access space it adds up. So I'm not the only nutter! As an idea, I've put a picture of the layout for the 360/30 at: http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/photos/layout.jpg (Note: This was in 1981 or so, it's long gone as far as I know) The scale is two large squares to 1m; the room is about 3.5m x 8m (300sqft). You can see where the access doors open, and also where the logic gates swing out from the 2030 and 2841. The smaller blocks are the drives, and there is also a disk pack storage rack. The space at the bottom was eventually taken up by the printer and card reader, as well as a fourth 2311 drive. I'm packing for my trip to VCF9, so see you there! -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 30 16:44:30 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 15:44:30 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems Message-ID: <C16BCE5E.958A%aek@bitsavers.org> > The whole line of > 20 years of IBM muscle computers is basically gone. The same is true > for the Burroughs and Univac machines of the same era. It is MUCH worse for Burroughs and Univac. IBM was sold in such high numbers that the probability of some surviving was higher. Both Burroughs and Univac had an active "scorched earth" policies for systems in the field to keep them out of the hands of resellers. I don't know of any Burroughs 5xxx/6xxx systems or Univac 1100's that still exist. John's Univac III is about the biggest old Univac system that I know of. There is also a disproportionate number of large scientific computers that have survived vs business systems. There much fewer in CHM's collection. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Oct 30 17:57:54 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 23:57:54 +0000 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <454614C2.21649.416AEF96@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <C16C4202.510A%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 30/10/06 23:05, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > Anent this business of mainframe iron, a rather surprising story > about modern trends: > > http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/biztech/10/30/reviving.mainframes.ap/inde > x.html Heh, I said just as much to people at work last week while they were processing an order for 42 servers for one customer :) Of course, 42 HP boxes are much cheaper than an enterprise class mainframe, but it's the thought that counts eh. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Oct 30 19:56:31 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 20:56:31 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <C16BCE5E.958A%aek@bitsavers.org> References: <C16BCE5E.958A%aek@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <e1d20d630610301756o3ea44af2g2569681dfc2fe010@mail.gmail.com> > It is MUCH worse for Burroughs and Univac. IBM was sold in such high numbers > that the probability of some surviving was higher. Both Burroughs and Univac > had an active "scorched earth" policies for systems in the field to keep > them out of the hands of resellers. I don't know of any Burroughs 5xxx/6xxx > systems or Univac 1100's that still exist. I assume that B6800 in Autralia bit the dust six or seven years back. Anyone know? > John's Univac III is about the biggest old Univac system that I know of. Other than two or three 9300s, a 90/30, and a System/80 (all sort of small machines), are there any other Univacs left? Unisys does not count - but should. > There is also a disproportionate number of large scientific computers that > have survived vs business systems. There much fewer in CHM's collection. While very nice that they are still around, they do not reflect the true life and times of a real mainframe. Boring things like payroll and check balancing, but magnitudes more important than number crunching for the everyday man. -- Will From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Oct 30 20:43:47 2006 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 21:43:47 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Discussion of large systems Message-ID: <31687574.1162262627770.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > Al Kossow said: >There are VERY VERY few people that have such systems. I only know of at >most a dozen in the US, and most of them do not participate in on-line >discussions. A few rarely use email. .... >Surviving systems from before 1975 are very rare animals, esp mainframes, >since so many of them have been scrapped for precious metals. Sadly, there >is even less software that has survived. CHM didn't start seriously >collecting documentation nor software prior to the move to the West Coast in >the 90's. While they have an impressive collection of hardware, and a pretty >decent collection of US computer documentation now, the software holdings >pre 1975 are minimal. > >I will be giving a talk at VCF this Saturday on the CHM software collection. > Al, can you get someone to record your talk and put it on DVD or somewhere that I can see it? As much as I would love to attend the VCF, I am on the other side of the country and busy as hell right now with my job and other things. I own a number of fully functional early-to-mid 1970s blinking light PDP-11 systems and have an 11/40 set up with a replica of my college's 1977-79 era academic computer center, running a timesharing operating system and software of the period, and complete with ASR-33, LA36, LA120, VT52, and VT05 teminals, all fully functional. Other than the operating system, much of the software came from an RK05 disk pack that I had saved since 1978, and from printouts of every program on our system in 1977-78. It has RK05, RL01, RL02, RX01, and RX02 drives. I would very much like to see and hear your presentation. If it is recorded, I would like to get a copy. Hopefully I can make it out to the west coast next year. Ashley Carder Leesville, SC From wacarder at earthlink.net Mon Oct 30 20:51:28 2006 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 21:51:28 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: Discussion of large systems Message-ID: <21976327.1162263089109.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >>Surviving systems from before 1975 are very rare animals, esp mainframes, >>since so many of them have been scrapped for precious metals. Sadly, there >>is even less software that has survived. CHM didn't start seriously >>collecting documentation nor software prior to the move to the West Coast in >>the 90's. While they have an impressive collection of hardware, and a pretty >>decent collection of US computer documentation now, the software holdings >>pre 1975 are minimal. How many 1970s era or earlier mainframes are actually up and running (or in working condition) somewhere? I have not really followed mainframe collecting, although I did work on IBM 370 and 30xx mainframes in the 1980s. Ashley From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 30 19:53:29 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 18:53:29 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems Message-ID: <C16BFAA9.95A9%aek@bitsavers.org> " Al, can you get someone to record your talk and put it on DVD or somewhere that I can see it?" I don't know. Check with Sellam. Since two people have asked now, what I'll be talking about will be extracted from material I presented at the CHM's "Attic and Parlor" workshop last spring, with a bunch of updates based on my last 6 months of work at CHM, and on some things that we've added to the collection since then. I'll try to get a paper version up somewhere (probably on bitsavers) after the talk. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 30 20:55:24 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 21:55:24 -0500 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <454614C2.21649.416AEF96@cclist.sydex.com> References: <Your message of "Sun, 29 Oct 2006 14:40:48 EST." <002101c6fb92$22eb97e0$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com> >, <200610300906.JAA08767@citadel.metropolis.local> <454614C2.21649.416AEF96@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <A803FEB1-3D8F-45C0-B34C-88B6E18BE10B@neurotica.com> On Oct 30, 2006, at 6:05 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Anent this business of mainframe iron, a rather surprising story > about modern trends: > > http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/biztech/10/30/reviving.mainframes.ap/inde > x.html That's an interesting read. I was amused to see that the author of the article knows somewhere between "jack" and "squat" about how software is developed today, but sadly I could find no way by which to send any sort of feedback to the author. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 30 21:31:20 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 19:31:20 -0800 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <A803FEB1-3D8F-45C0-B34C-88B6E18BE10B@neurotica.com> References: <Your message of <002101c6fb92$22eb97e0$6101a8c0@launchmodem.com>, <454614C2.21649.416AEF96@cclist.sydex.com>, <A803FEB1-3D8F-45C0-B34C-88B6E18BE10B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45465308.29994.425E2ED9@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2006 at 21:55, Dave McGuire wrote: > That's an interesting read. I was amused to see that the author > of the article knows somewhere between "jack" and "squat" about how > software is developed today, but sadly I could find no way by which > to send any sort of feedback to the author. :-( Yeah, I liked the quip about the "green screen" programming.... Cheers, Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Mon Oct 30 21:39:36 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 21:39:36 -0600 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <C16C4202.510A%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> References: <454614C2.21649.416AEF96@cclist.sydex.com> <C16C4202.510A%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <624966d60610301939l5eb79255n35bea5daa5d6d777@mail.gmail.com> Anyone have an ANFS-Q7 SAGE system at home? On 10/30/06, Adrian Graham <witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk> wrote: > > On 30/10/06 23:05, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > > > Anent this business of mainframe iron, a rather surprising story > > about modern trends: > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/biztech/10/30/reviving.mainframes.ap/inde > > x.html > > Heh, I said just as much to people at work last week while they were > processing an order for 42 servers for one customer :) Of course, 42 HP > boxes are much cheaper than an enterprise class mainframe, but it's the > thought that counts eh. > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From useddec at gmail.com Mon Oct 30 21:44:22 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 21:44:22 -0600 Subject: MINC-11 (was Re: Collections of (physically) large computers) In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0610291654q67869be3qcaa63aa7ff64cd7d@mail.gmail.com> References: <f4eb766f0610291654q67869be3qcaa63aa7ff64cd7d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <624966d60610301944i3cdcd7e6i123ca62175ade22c@mail.gmail.com> I have a few sets of the MNC boards left, and most of the Q-bus boards. Please feel free to contact me off list. Thanks, Paul Anderson 217-586-5361 On 10/29/06, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: > > On 10/30/06, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > And my PDP11/45 (2 6' racks, 2 free-standing RK07s, and what started out > > as a MINC contianing 2 RL01s, with the realtime I/O of the MINC linked > to > > the PDP11/45 via a DW11-B Unibus-Qbus interface). > > Niiiice. What I/O modules do you have, and are you using them for > anything? > > I have a MINC-11 (that's just a MINC), but only one or two lab > modules. I really can't do much with it in its present configuration > except use it as a rather ordinary RT-11 box. I've always wanted to > find some of the modules and do something "interesting" but I can't > imagine what that might be without a pile of boards staring me in the > face imploring me to find a use. > > -ethan > From useddec at gmail.com Mon Oct 30 21:53:03 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 21:53:03 -0600 Subject: PDP11/35 or 40 RK05F and J, etc Message-ID: <624966d60610301953r34214a91if596dab69e5823b5@mail.gmail.com> I just picked up another full van load this weekend, docs, parts, boards, > options, etc. The 11/35 can be delivered in the midwest, palletized, or > shipped padded van. Please feel free to contact me off list. Thanks, Paul Anderson 217-586-5361 From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Oct 30 22:54:26 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 23:54:26 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival 9.0 News In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0610300456310.14215@vintagetech.com> References: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0610300456310.14215@vintagetech.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061030235344.0223a518@xlisper.com> At 07:56 AM 10/30/2006, you wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival 9.0 > Saturday, November 4 through Sunday, November 5 > Computer History Museum > Mountain View, California > http://www.vintage.org/2006/main/ What happened to www.vintage.org? It seems to be a completely different web site now. From cctech at retro.co.za Tue Oct 31 00:47:08 2006 From: cctech at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 08:47:08 +0200 Subject: Waduzitdo? In-Reply-To: <200610280551.k9S5omfw061443@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20061031084520.06361bc8@alpha.ccii.co.za> Hi all >Does anyone have a copy, or preferably a scan, of the Byte article c. >1976 entitled "WADUZITDO"? I have, but it's in storage. Bug me if you don't come right elsewhere. >Is it this? > > http://www.geocities.com/connorbd/tarpit/waduzitdo/wdzref.html Yes. W From paul0926 at comcast.net Mon Oct 30 18:42:30 2006 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 17:42:30 -0700 Subject: Nice System/36 5360 needs saving In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0610301055160.23950-100000@localhost.localdomain> References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0610301055160.23950-100000@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <5BFBC2A3-4AA7-4FF0-A629-CC2CF339D046@comcast.net> I am certainly impressed, and humbly stand corrected. I guess good advice would be to take the tail gate off! I've heard the 5360 weights 700 pounds. That could be wrong, but it has to be at least 500 pounds. Paul On Oct 30, 2006, at 9:56 AM, JP Hindin wrote: > > Nonsense! > http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/IBM_s34/PickUp/ > > Of course, not everyone is willing to redneck picking up something > like > that. Then again, I can't imagine it has that much value since no > one here > is willing to take it back off my hands ;) > > All things are possible, with a bit of imagination. > > JP > From cctech at retro.co.za Tue Oct 31 01:35:07 2006 From: cctech at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 09:35:07 +0200 Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <200610300723.k9U7NAg2095329@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20061031093136.06928e80@alpha.ccii.co.za> Hi Jules and all >I suppose my Acorn System One is probably my smallest system - two Eurocards, Sharp PC 1500. Used it while studying. Had all my formulas in there, from integration to hex conversion. "Tricked it out" by adding a 32K ram on a PCB in the place of the normal 16K memory module. I have the manuals to program the thing in assembler so it definitely counts as a computer not a programmable calculator (I do regard the smaller Sharp jobbies as glorified calculators even if they have BASIC and a full mini-keyboard. W From vp at drexel.edu Tue Oct 31 01:15:44 2006 From: vp at drexel.edu (Vassilis PREVELAKIS) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 02:15:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers Message-ID: <200610310715.k9V7Fi9S012794@dune.cs.drexel.edu> sorry I couldn't resist ... ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I think the distinction I normally use is often called 'keeper'. That's a > pun on 'Key Per Function' meaning a calcultor has, say, a key labelled > 'SIN', whereas on a computer you spell it out. Byt that definition the > HP41 is a calculator (although you _can_ spell out the function names if > you want to), the HP9830 most vertainly isn't. so what does this make the Sinclair ZX-80, ZX-81 and Spectrum systems? (I am not even sure you *could* type in the commands, I think you *had* to press the appropriate function key). **vp From asholz at topinform.de Tue Oct 31 01:50:21 2006 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 08:50:21 +0100 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <5BFBC2A3-4AA7-4FF0-A629-CC2CF339D046@comcast.net> References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0610301055160.23950-100000@localhost.localdomain> <5BFBC2A3-4AA7-4FF0-A629-CC2CF339D046@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4547003D.6050504@topinform.de> Only about 13Years old, but quite large: http://convex.topinform.de/c38/images/ Andreas From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Oct 31 06:14:48 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 07:14:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <624966d60610301939l5eb79255n35bea5daa5d6d777@mail.gmail.com> References: <454614C2.21649.416AEF96@cclist.sydex.com> <C16C4202.510A%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> <624966d60610301939l5eb79255n35bea5daa5d6d777@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0610310713370.8573@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 30 Oct 2006, Paul Anderson wrote: > Anyone have an ANFS-Q7 SAGE system at home? Only parts of one: :-) http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/SAGE/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 31 02:55:12 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 02:55:12 -0600 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <21976327.1162263089109.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <21976327.1162263089109.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <45470F70.8000200@yahoo.co.uk> Ashley Carder wrote: >>> Surviving systems from before 1975 are very rare animals, esp mainframes, >>> since so many of them have been scrapped for precious metals. Sadly, there >>> is even less software that has survived. CHM didn't start seriously >>> collecting documentation nor software prior to the move to the West Coast in >>> the 90's. While they have an impressive collection of hardware, and a pretty >>> decent collection of US computer documentation now, the software holdings >>> pre 1975 are minimal. > > How many 1970s era or earlier mainframes are actually up and running > (or in working condition) somewhere? Hmm, define 'mainframe' I suppose :-) I mean, we've got the Elliott 803 (umm, 1958 I think) and the Marconi TAC (design was 1959, ours was built 1964 IIRC) - both of those are in need of some trivial maintenance right now but are otherwise kept in running condition. But when I think of mainframe I think of processor + storage along with a bunch of terminals attached; both of those systems are more data processors (albeit general purpose ones) than something capable of supporting several human users. Then we've got the ICL 2966 - I've never managed to get a firm date for that one, although I believe it's late 1970s. That one's definitely recognisable as a mainframe :-) I think we have 40 cabinets for it; it's small by ICL standards, but I think it's probably physically the largest machine in public hands in the UK. Non-runner at present and needs a lot of work, but getting it operational again is a firm project; we've got a large spares cache and all the docs, plus have been talking with various ex-ICL people over the last year who may be able to help out. > I have not really followed mainframe > collecting, although I did work on IBM 370 and 30xx mainframes in the 1980s. I used to work for a computer repair place back in the early 90s - all small stuff it was; various home machines and the like. One day the owner got an IBM 370 in though; he'd agreed to clear out a business premises that was closing and was after all the terminals and standalone machines so that he could sell them on, but had to take the 370 too. Annoyingly, he had no clue how to make money out of this big 370 though - it got offered to me for free if I just hauled it away for him, but of course I didn't have the contacts that I do now and so I couldn't do anything with it either. I seem to remember it sitting in the warehouse for a few months, then the scrapper came in and hauled it off to the crusher :( cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 31 03:37:26 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 03:37:26 -0600 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <C16BAC29.9556%aek@bitsavers.org> References: <C16BAC29.9556%aek@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45471956.9010705@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > Surviving systems from before 1975 are very rare animals, esp mainframes, > since so many of them have been scrapped for precious metals. Sadly, there > is even less software that has survived. You know, I almost think that the UK picture is a little brighter in this respect. Certainly there still seem to be healthy enough numbers of pre-1975 "desk sized" systems about (meaning that there are enough about for anyone who has the necessary restoration skills to be able to have one). Finding them is a little tricky, but they are there. As for the mainframe picture - well, difficult to say. I expect there are still one or two lurkers in private hands stashed away in barns and things, and probably a handful more still in the basements of large companies. > CHM didn't start seriously > collecting documentation nor software prior to the move to the West Coast in > the 90's. While they have an impressive collection of hardware, and a pretty > decent collection of US computer documentation now, the software holdings > pre 1975 are minimal. Again we're perhaps a bit better off there on the UK side of the pond, in that we've done pretty well in securing the software to go with a lot of the systems that we have. Our problem is a total lack of manpower, meaning that the things that we do have aren't getting archived sufficiently (particularly true of anything on magnetic media, but the same applies to paper tape too). Unfortunately that can't change unless we get more volunteers. Afraid I can't say what the UK Science Museum has in the way of software archives; I've seen the hardware asset list but I don't know if an equivalent for software even exists. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 31 04:44:54 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 04:44:54 -0600 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <C16C4202.510A%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> References: <C16C4202.510A%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <45472926.7000701@yahoo.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 30/10/06 23:05, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > >> Anent this business of mainframe iron, a rather surprising story >> about modern trends: >> >> http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/biztech/10/30/reviving.mainframes.ap/inde >> x.html > > Heh, I said just as much to people at work last week while they were > processing an order for 42 servers for one customer :) Of course, 42 HP > boxes are much cheaper than an enterprise class mainframe, but it's the > thought that counts eh. Although working out the cost of those HP servers in terms of power, reliability, security, systems management and user time wasted due to bad software - then rinsing and repeating every couple of years due to the upgrade cycle - might make for some interesting numbers. But as I said in a message to the Bletchley list just now, if we all wanted a centralised, thin-client way of working, we'd all be doing it already because the technology has never gone away. OK, so that's typically based around a handful of core servers rather than a single giant mainframe, but from a user and managerial perspective it looks the same - but hasn't been adopted in wide numbers. Aside: Anyone here have experience of mainframe design? I mean, sure they're reliable and fast and everything - but how much of the cost is due to design effort and how much is purely due to the fact that they don't sell many and need to pay the bills? (I just had this vision of an IBM engineer seeing how many buses, CPUs and I/O interfaces they could draw on a napkin, then adding in a few redundant power supplies and calling it done ;-) cheers Jules From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue Oct 31 09:57:38 2006 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:57:38 -0000 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <45471956.9010705@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <001201c6fd05$4a3d8f50$655b2c0a@w2kdell> > Afraid I can't say what the UK Science Museum has in the way of software > archives; I've seen the hardware asset list but I don't know if > an equivalent > for software even exists. > and as for other sources, the position with the ICT/ICL 1900 seems to be that there is quite a bit about BUT it is not being made generally available because of copyright problems. Dave Holdsworth's work on saving George 3 (via software emulation of the executive interface) seems to be operational but hard to find. Easiest version to find was the one with the Algol68R compiler but Google currently doesn't seem to know where it is. Several other items did appear on http://www.fcs.eu.com/techlib/index.html but are now "Not available yet - please try again soon" (and I didn't manage to grab everything when they were up) - same applies to the manuals (but I got most of them). It is rumoured that a George 1/2 source tape exists - but that nobody has the right version of GIN5 to assemble it. (memories of the days when I kept a full source listing of G2 on my desk - complete with our local modifications). I have no idea whether any Operators Executive tapes exist - if they do I hope they are complete as distributed: bootable at start of tape followed by a complete source listing afterwards). I had a private project in mind to "build" a 1900 on an FPGA - but if no Exec remains that would be pointless. Andy From wizard at voyager.net Tue Oct 31 10:05:41 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 11:05:41 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <45470F70.8000200@yahoo.co.uk> References: <21976327.1162263089109.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <45470F70.8000200@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1162310742.30504.6.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 02:55 -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: > Annoyingly, he had no clue how to make money out of this big 370 though - it > got offered to me for free if I just hauled it away for him, but of course I > didn't have the contacts that I do now and so I couldn't do anything with it > either. I seem to remember it sitting in the warehouse for a few months, then > the scrapper came in and hauled it off to the crusher :( That's painful, isn't it? When I was attending Michigan State University, the computer we used for our programming projects was a Control Data 6500, later upgraded to a 6600. Even later, they upgraded to a CDC Cyber 750, and needed to remove the (then) 6600. They tried to sell it. It was a problem, because they had, essentially, built one end of the Computer Center around it, and whoever took it would have to take out at least one wall, and re-build the wall when they were done. They had no takers at their price. Eventually, they got down to offering the computer for free to anyone who would take it out, and leave the place as they found it. Again, no takers. Finally, the scrappers came in with chainsaws, and made small enough pieces they didn't have to remove a wall. Very sad. The machine had no stack, so I wrote one for it, and developed a stack oriented p-machine for it. If only I had had a spare barn I wasn't using... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Tue Oct 31 10:11:06 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 11:11:06 -0500 Subject: HP 3000 Magnetic Tape In-Reply-To: <001201c6fd05$4a3d8f50$655b2c0a@w2kdell> References: <001201c6fd05$4a3d8f50$655b2c0a@w2kdell> Message-ID: <1162311066.30504.10.camel@linux.site> Hello, All... I have a question... Does anyone here have the necessary hardware and software to read a magnetic tape in HP 3000 Store Format? I believe the machine writing it was using MPE 4.5 at the time, although I could be off a bit on the number... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From jplist at kiwigeek.com Tue Oct 31 10:11:07 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:11:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Nice System/36 5360 needs saving In-Reply-To: <5BFBC2A3-4AA7-4FF0-A629-CC2CF339D046@comcast.net> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0610311009550.23950-100000@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 30 Oct 2006, Paul Heller wrote: > I am certainly impressed, and humbly stand corrected. I guess good > advice would be to take the tail gate off! > > I've heard the 5360 weights 700 pounds. That could be wrong, but it > has to be at least 500 pounds. I have no clue how much the S/34 actually weighed - the woman I picked it up from said that she was pretty sure the shipping label from her original receipt of it (In 1980, for $188,000 no less) said 800lbs. Given the amount of fun we had with the ratchet winches, and how much my half-ton truck sank in the rear end, I believe it's plausible. ;) > On Oct 30, 2006, at 9:56 AM, JP Hindin wrote: > > > > > Nonsense! > > http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/IBM_s34/PickUp/ > > > > Of course, not everyone is willing to redneck picking up something > > like > > that. Then again, I can't imagine it has that much value since no > > one here > > is willing to take it back off my hands ;) > > > > All things are possible, with a bit of imagination. > > > > JP > > > > > From jplist at kiwigeek.com Tue Oct 31 10:11:07 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:11:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Nice System/36 5360 needs saving In-Reply-To: <5BFBC2A3-4AA7-4FF0-A629-CC2CF339D046@comcast.net> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0610311009550.23950-100000@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 30 Oct 2006, Paul Heller wrote: > I am certainly impressed, and humbly stand corrected. I guess good > advice would be to take the tail gate off! > > I've heard the 5360 weights 700 pounds. That could be wrong, but it > has to be at least 500 pounds. I have no clue how much the S/34 actually weighed - the woman I picked it up from said that she was pretty sure the shipping label from her original receipt of it (In 1980, for $188,000 no less) said 800lbs. Given the amount of fun we had with the ratchet winches, and how much my half-ton truck sank in the rear end, I believe it's plausible. ;) > On Oct 30, 2006, at 9:56 AM, JP Hindin wrote: > > > > > Nonsense! > > http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/IBM_s34/PickUp/ > > > > Of course, not everyone is willing to redneck picking up something > > like > > that. Then again, I can't imagine it has that much value since no > > one here > > is willing to take it back off my hands ;) > > > > All things are possible, with a bit of imagination. > > > > JP > > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 31 09:20:02 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 08:20:02 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems Message-ID: <C16CB7B2.9625%aek@bitsavers.org> > The machine had no stack, so I wrote one for it, and > developed a stack oriented p-machine for it. Do you still have this? There is a version of SCOPE/Hustler running in simulation. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Oct 31 09:22:53 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 08:22:53 -0700 Subject: HP 3000 Magnetic Tape Message-ID: <C16CB85D.9627%aek@bitsavers.org> > Does anyone here have the necessary hardware > and software to read a magnetic tape in HP 3000 Store Format? I have the equipment to read the tape at the block level at the Museum. We are looking for early verions of MPE (that would run on Series II or III) as well. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 31 10:55:11 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 09:55:11 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Oct 2006 08:50:21 +0100. <4547003D.6050504@topinform.de> Message-ID: <E1GewtM-0007MI-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <4547003D.6050504 at topinform.de>, Andreas Holz <asholz at topinform.de> writes: > Only about 13Years old, but quite large: > > http://convex.topinform.de/c38/images/ Nice! It saddens me when I see thick cables cut with bolt cutters instead of detached from the receptacle and coiled up with the unit though :-(. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 31 10:55:19 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:55:19 -0600 Subject: Printer Heads: How To Clean Without Wasting Ink In-Reply-To: <45461692.3010502@webhart.net> References: <45461692.3010502@webhart.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20061031105358.0590c308@mail> At 09:13 AM 10/30/2006, you wrote: >Is there a way to clean printer heads from the outside, rather than allowing so much ink to be wasted by the machine blowing the ink through the heads to clean them. A good question. I usually scrub the print heads with a tissue soaked in water or other solvent, but it's not foolproof. I've wondered if there isn't a process of filling a spare cart with a solvent that might help dissolve ink build-up. - John From wizard at voyager.net Tue Oct 31 11:16:08 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 12:16:08 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <C16CB7B2.9625%aek@bitsavers.org> References: <C16CB7B2.9625%aek@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1162314968.30504.15.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 08:20 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > The machine had no stack, so I wrote one for it, and > > developed a stack oriented p-machine for it. > > Do you still have this? I think so... I believe I sent it to work, where it would have ended up on the HP store tape I mentioned in another post... > There is a version of SCOPE/Hustler running in simulation. Oh, really? Cool! What O/S does the simulator use? Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Oct 31 11:41:13 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 09:41:13 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <E1GewtM-0007MI-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <E1GewtM-0007MI-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <45478AB9.4020604@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: > Nice! It saddens me when I see thick cables cut with bolt cutters > >instead of detached from the receptacle and coiled up with the unit >though :-(. > > A lot of times these systems may be hard wired to the mains, and this is no loss, as one will open up the power supplies and rewire it with fresh cable anyway. I was worried from your post they had chopped data cables, but this looks like a very good dismantle job and transport. Great find and rescue. Jim From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Oct 31 11:45:38 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 18:45:38 +0100 Subject: Question regarding floppy drive functionality. Message-ID: <45478BC2.5050605@bluewin.ch> Since this list has a number of people that are very knowledgable on the subject : Am i correct in thinking that, given a custom FDC, i could run a modern 1.44 floppy in FM mode, and at much lower data rates i.e. (say 50 KHz.) ? Background : I am musing on how to give a small amount of storage, say around 100kb, to a very small low tech cpu. I do not care about speed and efficiency. I am aware that IDE-based solutions are simpler, both hard- and software wise, but I would prefer a floppy based solution. Jos Dreesen From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 31 12:01:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:01:46 -0800 Subject: Question regarding floppy drive functionality. In-Reply-To: <45478BC2.5050605@bluewin.ch> References: <45478BC2.5050605@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <45471F0A.12808.457B1D24@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2006 at 18:45, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > Am i correct in thinking that, given a custom FDC, i could run a modern > 1.44 floppy in FM mode, and at much lower data rates i.e. (say 50 KHz.) ? I don't think there should be a problem with what you want to do. If you wanted to run said drive significantly FASTER than the 500KHz data rate, you might run into problems--but slower should be no problem. The low data rate yields all sorts of low-tech encoding possibilities, since ISV and other issues don't matter as much at low speeds. I can imagine that you could use a USART or even a UART with a flipflop NRZ encoder and get very good results. Cheers, Chuck From wizard at voyager.net Tue Oct 31 12:10:04 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 13:10:04 -0500 Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20061031105358.0590c308@mail> References: <45461692.3010502@webhart.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20061031105358.0590c308@mail> Message-ID: <1162318204.30504.53.camel@linux.site> Hello, All, At the risk of setting some folks off, I'd like to institute a claim that I was involved one of the very first e-mail projects in history. Recently, I saw a couple of alpha geeks arguing over which one of them wrote the first e-mail program, based on full functionality versus first actual use, and some other technical considerations. I was interested, and kept watching. I was totally shocked when they started talking about the dates involved (no, not dates with women -- get real.) because they were in 1975 and 1976. I was wondering what it was that caused them to ignore things about which I know... I know that Fernando Corbato's group at M.I.T. developed something like e-mail, which was functionally identical to the system we developed, in 1965. It required all users to use the same computer system. I also know that, in 1971 or 1972, about the time we did our project, Ray Tomlinson developed the first e-mail system that sent mail between computers, incidentally using the "@" character to signify the beginning of the host name. But, when we were working on our program, we knew nothing of either of these projects. When I was in my senior year of high school, around Novmber of 1971, I "took over" the computer that served our school district. I hacked through, and figured out the scheme used to create passwords for the various schools. Therefore, I could log into the area of all of the schools, with one or two exceptions, whose codes I either figured out or "James Bonded" over the next couple of weeks, while I simultaneously learned all the system administration functions and commands. (ASR-33 paper tape, set to punch, short strip of tape, positioned to curl up inside the mechanism - viola! Key logging...) Much to my surprise, however, when I broke in I found convincing evidence that there were not one, but two other people who did the same thing at, apparently, EXACTLY the same time. Before long, we were all talking on the phone, and got together. One of the others was named Chet Heiber, also a senior, and after I graduated, I never saw him again. The other guy was Max Rubow, a junior, who remains a close personal friend to this day. On the computer, we would leave text files for each other with suggestive names, in various directories. Soon, we found one directory which was given to a school which didn't have anyone interested in the computer, leaving an empty directory, which we appropriated. I was grousing about our system of messaging one day, and Max challenged me to come up with a better way. Okay, I said, and started describing a database of records with sender, recipient, "has been read", and time/date stamp fields. I got into it, and actually, on the spot, fleshed out a pretty good working arrangement for e-mail. Max was impressed. Much to my surprise, about two weeks later, he approached me with a program (which almost worked) to implement what I had been blue-skying with him. We worked together on the system, and actually had it working, and used, before I graduated in June of 1972. Over the next year, without me, Max polished it up, and had a very good, stable, and functional system which stored every sort of information available to a running HP-2000B BASIC program in the file. It was, actually, full-featured e-mail, albeit limited to one machine. While I had the original inspiration, Max wrote the vast majority of the code. I helped out for a couple of months before I graduated, but my estimate is that less than 10% of the code was mine by the time it worked, and even less, after all the enhancements the next year brought. Now, if these jokers can argue over whether their 1975 or 1976 programs were first... why can't I argue that our 1972 program was first? I STILL want to know how they passed over Tomlinson and Corbato... Anyway, I have, somewhere, a spool of paper tape from a Teletype 33-ASR punch which contains a version (I'm not sure WHICH version) of the READER program. I would imagine that this is relatively easy to get moved into the modern world. Yes? I'd kind of like to get all my old stuff, hollerith cards, paper tape, HP store tape, etc. on a disk... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 31 12:17:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 11:17:57 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Oct 2006 09:41:13 -0800. <45478AB9.4020604@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <E1GeyBW-0004bT-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <45478AB9.4020604 at msm.umr.edu>, jim stephens <jwstephens at msm.umr.edu> writes: > A lot of times these systems may be hard wired to the mains, and this is > no loss, as one will open up the power supplies and rewire it with fresh > cable anyway. But if they cut the mains end, you still have the original cable that you can use! I imagine that they probably cut /both/ ends if it was as you describe, leaving a bunch of cable for scrap. I guess I just prefer not to see things go to waste. If they cut the cable at the computer end, its not like they're going to do anything useful with the cable from the mains end. > I was worried from your post they had chopped data cables, but this > looks like a very good dismantle job and transport. Great find and > rescue. Yeah, they look like power cables but I don't know for certain. I've certainly seen all cabling, regardless of use, cut as a machine was "decomissioned", even things like RS-232 cables that have a connector on them! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 31 12:20:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:20:11 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <1162310742.30504.6.camel@linux.site> References: <21976327.1162263089109.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <45470F70.8000200@yahoo.co.uk>, <1162310742.30504.6.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <4547235B.3039.458BFA53@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2006 at 11:05, Warren Wolfe wrote: > That's painful, isn't it? When I was attending Michigan State > University, the computer we used for our programming projects was a > Control Data 6500, later upgraded to a 6600. . They tried to > sell it. Now here's where I'm mystified. Why would anyone in their right mind want to run one of these nowadays? 400Hz power, chilled water supply for cooling and cordwood modules that would go bad if the phase of the moon was wrong. I don't understand the deal about "writing a stack"for the 6000. There was Algol-60 at least since 1965 or so, not to mention a host of other languages that needed to support recursion and local variables. So I'm a bit mystified. By far, the neatest feat I'd ever seen done with that system was a COBOL compiler and run-time implemented in a PPU. Bizarre and lots and lots of overlaid code of course, but a great illustration of how much could be done with 4K of 12 bit words. Cheers, Chuck From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue Oct 31 12:50:08 2006 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 12:50:08 -0600 Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail In-Reply-To: <1162318204.30504.53.camel@linux.site> References: <45461692.3010502@webhart.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20061031105358.0590c308@mail> <1162318204.30504.53.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <a06230914c16d4b3a7245@[157.178.124.226]> Do you have some hp-2000 magnetic tapes of software? Those can easily be loaded into an emulated hp2000 system and therefore made usable again. -Bob >Hello, All, > > At the risk of setting some folks off, I'd like to institute a claim >that I was involved one of the very first e-mail projects in history. >Recently, I saw a couple of alpha geeks arguing over which one of them >wrote the first e-mail program, based on full functionality versus first >actual use, and some other technical considerations. I was interested, >and kept watching. I was totally shocked when they started talking >about the dates involved (no, not dates with women -- get real.) because >they were in 1975 and 1976. I was wondering what it was that caused >them to ignore things about which I know... > > I know that Fernando Corbato's group at M.I.T. developed something >like e-mail, which was functionally identical to the system we >developed, in 1965. It required all users to use the same computer >system. I also know that, in 1971 or 1972, about the time we did our >project, Ray Tomlinson developed the first e-mail system that sent mail >between computers, incidentally using the "@" character to signify the >beginning of the host name. But, when we were working on our program, >we knew nothing of either of these projects. > > When I was in my senior year of high school, around Novmber of 1971, >I "took over" the computer that served our school district. I hacked >through, and figured out the scheme used to create passwords for the >various schools. Therefore, I could log into the area of all of the >schools, with one or two exceptions, whose codes I either figured out or >"James Bonded" over the next couple of weeks, while I simultaneously >learned all the system administration functions and commands. (ASR-33 >paper tape, set to punch, short strip of tape, positioned to curl up >inside the mechanism - viola! Key logging...) Much to my surprise, >however, when I broke in I found convincing evidence that there were not >one, but two other people who did the same thing at, apparently, EXACTLY >the same time. Before long, we were all talking on the phone, and got >together. > > One of the others was named Chet Heiber, also a senior, and after I >graduated, I never saw him again. The other guy was Max Rubow, a >junior, who remains a close personal friend to this day. On the >computer, we would leave text files for each other with suggestive >names, in various directories. Soon, we found one directory which was >given to a school which didn't have anyone interested in the computer, >leaving an empty directory, which we appropriated. > > I was grousing about our system of messaging one day, and Max >challenged me to come up with a better way. Okay, I said, and started >describing a database of records with sender, recipient, "has been >read", and time/date stamp fields. I got into it, and actually, on the >spot, fleshed out a pretty good working arrangement for e-mail. Max was >impressed. Much to my surprise, about two weeks later, he approached me >with a program (which almost worked) to implement what I had been >blue-skying with him. We worked together on the system, and actually >had it working, and used, before I graduated in June of 1972. Over the >next year, without me, Max polished it up, and had a very good, stable, >and functional system which stored every sort of information available >to a running HP-2000B BASIC program in the file. It was, actually, >full-featured e-mail, albeit limited to one machine. > > While I had the original inspiration, Max wrote the vast majority of >the code. I helped out for a couple of months before I graduated, but >my estimate is that less than 10% of the code was mine by the time it >worked, and even less, after all the enhancements the next year brought. >Now, if these jokers can argue over whether their 1975 or 1976 programs >were first... why can't I argue that our 1972 program was first? I >STILL want to know how they passed over Tomlinson and Corbato... > > Anyway, I have, somewhere, a spool of paper tape from a Teletype >33-ASR punch which contains a version (I'm not sure WHICH version) of >the READER program. I would imagine that this is relatively easy to get >moved into the modern world. Yes? I'd kind of like to get all my old >stuff, hollerith cards, paper tape, HP store tape, etc. on a disk... > > > > Peace, > > Warren E. Wolfe > wizard at voyager.net -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Oct 31 12:56:54 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 18:56:54 +0000 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <4547003D.6050504@topinform.de> Message-ID: <C16D4CF6.5177%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 31/10/06 07:50, "Andreas Holz" <asholz at topinform.de> wrote: > Only about 13Years old, but quite large: > > http://convex.topinform.de/c38/images/ Don't you just hate it when decommissioners cut the power cables like that! Is the system still in bits or has it been reassembled? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Oct 31 12:59:45 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 18:59:45 +0000 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <45470F70.8000200@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <C16D4DA1.5178%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 31/10/06 08:55, "Jules Richardson" <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Then we've got the ICL 2966 - I've never managed to get a firm date for that > one, although I believe it's late 1970s. That one's definitely recognisable as I started in Operations on a 2966 in 1982/3-ish and they'd just upgraded from a 2900 which was still spread all over the computer room and outlying areas. I'd love to say 'happy days' but I was the printer and tape monkey so didn't have THAT much fun. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Oct 30 14:53:54 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 20:53:54 +0000 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 30 Oct 2006 09:18:51 CST." <454617DB.9060405@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200610302053.UAA12341@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jules Richardson said: > Stan Barr wrote: > > > * In 1982 IBM PCs were advertised at "from 2,800 pounds" (at about 2 dollars > > to the pound, I think) for a dual floppy machine with monitor. > > Hmm, I have two, an original PC and an XT. *one* of those cost around 4000 > pounds circa 1984, but unfortunately I don't know which. I was quoting from an advert in "Practical Computing", April 1982. I well remember the sharp intakes of breath at IBMs prices at the time, but I imagine they dropped sharply if you bought enough machines. They were certainly cheaper a year or so later when our firm bought their first few. For comparison, a 48K Apple II cost 650 pounds, a double floppy 550 pounds and a monitor 99 pounds - 1299 pounds total, plus the dreaded VAT. A 128K ACT Sirius with CP/M86 or MSDOS was 2395 pounds + VAT, so IBMs prices weren't really _that_ outrageous. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 31 13:39:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 11:39:34 -0800 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <200610302053.UAA12341@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <Your message of "Mon, 30 Oct 2006 09:18:51 CST." <454617DB.9060405@yahoo.co.uk> >, <200610302053.UAA12341@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <454735F6.4148.45D4A77A@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Oct 2006 at 20:53, Stan Barr wrote: > I was quoting from an advert in "Practical Computing", April 1982. > I well remember the sharp intakes of breath at IBMs prices at the time, > but I imagine they dropped sharply if you bought enough machines. > They were certainly cheaper a year or so later when our firm bought > their first few. Aroiund 1983, my business partner and I were setting up an operation in India (outsourcing of programming isn't that new!) and wanted to get a few PCs for use over there. So we went to the IBM sales office (on Arques in Sunnyvale, IIRC) and asked about getting some 220v/50Hz "export" machines. We were told that they were on a rather long backorder and we'd just have to wait our turn. And, yes, the price differential was pretty staggering, especially when compared to similarly-equipped domestic models. We asked if the domestic models would run on 50Hz if a suitable transformer was supplied to drop the line voltage to 120vac. We were informed rather curtly that doing so would be viewed as a violation of the warranty. We considered getting an MG set, but eventually decided to push our luck (the only mains-connected component other than the PSU itself that I could find was the PSU fan) and ran the domestic PCs off of a stepdown transformer. They worked just fine until they were retired. Cheers, Chuck From marian.capel at bluewin.ch Tue Oct 31 11:26:22 2006 From: marian.capel at bluewin.ch (Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 18:26:22 +0100 Subject: A question regarding floppy drives functionality.. Message-ID: <4547873E.5030200@bluewin.ch> Since this list has a number of people that are very knowledgable on the subject : Am i correct in thinking that, given a custom FDC, i could run a modern 1.44 floppy in FM mode, and at much lower data rates i.e. (say 50 KHz.) ? Background : I am musing on how to give a small amount of storage, say around 100kb, to a very small low tech cpu. I do not care about speed and efficiency. I am aware that IDE-based solutions are simpler, both hard- and software wise, but I would prefer a floppy based solution. Jos Dreesen From wizard at voyager.net Tue Oct 31 13:58:57 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 14:58:57 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <4547235B.3039.458BFA53@cclist.sydex.com> References: <21976327.1162263089109.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> , <45470F70.8000200@yahoo.co.uk>, <1162310742.30504.6.camel@linux.site> <4547235B.3039.458BFA53@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1162324737.30504.57.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 10:20 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't understand the deal about "writing a stack"for the 6000. > There was Algol-60 at least since 1965 or so, not to mention a host > of other languages that needed to support recursion and local > variables. So I'm a bit mystified. In a macro assembly language module, with "PUSH" and "POP" that worked on a data stack, and "CALL" and "RETURN" which worked on a program stack. Didn't say it was earth-shaking... just handy as all get-out. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Tue Oct 31 14:00:13 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:00:13 -0500 Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail In-Reply-To: <a06230914c16d4b3a7245@[157.178.124.226]> References: <45461692.3010502@webhart.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20061031105358.0590c308@mail> <1162318204.30504.53.camel@linux.site> <a06230914c16d4b3a7245@[157.178.124.226]> Message-ID: <1162324813.30504.59.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 12:50 -0600, Bob Brown wrote: > Do you have some hp-2000 magnetic tapes of software? Those can > easily be loaded into an emulated hp2000 system and therefore made > usable again. Just paper tape... I suppose SOMEONE might. Odds are not good at all, though. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Oct 31 13:57:51 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 19:57:51 +0000 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <200610311801.k9VI16Xt039333@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200610311801.k9VI16Xt039333@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <C012CF29-3BA4-4856-9B22-BA33E0AF4CDF@microspot.co.uk> On 31 Oct, 2006, at 18:01, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > But when I think of mainframe I think of > processor + storage along with a bunch of terminals attached; both > of those > systems are more data processors (albeit general purpose ones) than > something > capable of supporting several human users. Except the older ones did not have terminals, sometimes not even for the operator. Surely anything which predates the Minicomputer is by definition a mainframe, unless it was designed as a peripheral processor rather than intended as a central processor. That would let out things like the CDC 1700 which is the first machine I learnt assembler code on as it was no longer needed to read cards and send the data to the main 6600 which was several miles away. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 31 14:22:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 12:22:45 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <1162324737.30504.57.camel@linux.site> References: <21976327.1162263089109.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <4547235B.3039.458BFA53@cclist.sydex.com>, <1162324737.30504.57.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <45474015.13211.45FC2F43@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2006 at 14:58, Warren Wolfe wrote: > In a macro assembly language module, with "PUSH" and "POP" that > worked on a data stack, and "CALL" and "RETURN" which worked on a > program stack. Didn't say it was earth-shaking... just handy as all > get-out. Ah, okay, now I get it. 6000 COMPASS did have a very powerful macro capability. It was usually the case when building any of the standard product set, that most of the build time was spent crunching through macro (or micro) sequences. I worked on a project to translate COBOL dialects. I took the approach of designing a lexical processor and its instruction set, then implemented the whole thing as COMPASS macros, first intrepreted (to debug) by a small routine, then implemented as machine-language instruction sequences. So, one could have instructions such as: IQTF T_COMMA,NEXT,SYNTAX_ERR which was "query if the current input token is a comma ; if true, call the get-next-token routine, otherwise, jump to the syntax-error routine. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Oct 31 14:24:40 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:24:40 -0500 Subject: Question regarding floppy drive functionality. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 31 Oct 2006 18:45:38 +0100." <45478BC2.5050605@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <200610312024.k9VKOexD000876@mwave.heeltoe.com> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: >Since this list has a number of people that are very knowledgable on the >subject : > >Am i correct in thinking that, given a custom FDC, i could run a modern >1.44 floppy in FM mode, and at much lower data rates i.e. (say 50 KHz.) ? > >Background : I am musing on how to give a small amount of storage, say >around 100kb, to a very small low tech cpu. >I do not care about speed and efficiency. > >I am aware that IDE-based solutions are simpler, both hard- and software >wise, but I would prefer a floppy based solution. Have you concidered MMC? It's only 4 wires and you can make a 3.3v supply from 5v using a LDO and 2 caps. There's a bunch of pic and z80 examples on the web and block i/o is really simple. I don't think you can beat it for simplicity and since the media is socketed you can read it on any other machine with a usb adapter. I was able to do dos file i/o on a pic 18f... (and I bet you could easily do MMC using a pc parallel port - you'd just have to buffer the 5v signals since the mmc is 3.3v. a fun project!) -brad From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 31 14:34:26 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 12:34:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <200610302053.UAA12341@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200610302053.UAA12341@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <20061031122615.F54468@shell.lmi.net> > > > * In 1982 IBM PCs were advertised at "from 2,800 pounds" (at about 2 dollars > > > to the pound, I think) for a dual floppy machine with monitor. > > Hmm, I have two, an original PC and an XT. *one* of those cost around 4000 > > pounds circa 1984, but unfortunately I don't know which. On Mon, 30 Oct 2006, Stan Barr wrote: > I was quoting from an advert in "Practical Computing", April 1982. > I well remember the sharp intakes of breath at IBMs prices at the time, > but I imagine they dropped sharply if you bought enough machines. > They were certainly cheaper a year or so later when our firm bought > their first few. > For comparison, a 48K Apple II cost 650 pounds, a double floppy 550 > pounds and a monitor 99 pounds - 1299 pounds total, plus the dreaded VAT. > A 128K ACT Sirius with CP/M86 or MSDOS was 2395 pounds + VAT, so IBMs > prices weren't really _that_ outrageous. IFF you bought a fully expanded machine from IBM, THEN the prices were high. Our college negotiated a "great deal", but even with deep discounts, by the time that you added in all the other CRAP that was included (including many software packages), the price was terrible. >From the time that it was introduced (August 1981), the IBM PC 5150 was also available bare for about $1360 (USD). If you put in your own Tandon TM100 drives at ~$150 each, instead of IBM's at ~$500 each, put in your own RAM at ~$75 per 16K v IBM's at $300 per 16K, added a serial card for ~$150?, added an FDC board for ~$300, a video board for ~$300, and your own monitor for ~$100 v IBM's at ~$600, etc. you ended up with a machine at comparable prices to an Apple ][. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Oct 31 14:39:18 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 12:39:18 -0800 Subject: Printer Heads: How To Clean Without Wasting Ink In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20061031105358.0590c308@mail> Message-ID: <42e201c6fd2c$a359d680$0501a8c0@liberator> There is, and there are a few companies that sell various solvent filled carts.... the company that produces the macinker does, if they are still in biz. http://www.cfriends.com/ Computer friends. And they still sell the macinker (reinking tool for ribbon carts :) ) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Foust Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 8:55 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Printer Heads: How To Clean Without Wasting Ink At 09:13 AM 10/30/2006, you wrote: >Is there a way to clean printer heads from the outside, rather than allowing so much ink to be wasted by the machine blowing the ink through the heads to clean them. A good question. I usually scrub the print heads with a tissue soaked in water or other solvent, but it's not foolproof. I've wondered if there isn't a process of filling a spare cart with a solvent that might help dissolve ink build-up. - John From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Oct 31 14:57:51 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 14:57:51 -0600 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <f4eb766f0610291633q459421f5ge32b7a3d6466f7b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <m1GeKL9-000IyeC@p850ug1> <20061029160419.M49896@shell.lmi.net> <f4eb766f0610291633q459421f5ge32b7a3d6466f7b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4547B8CF.5050309@oldskool.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I think the point here was to differentiate simple "four-banger > calculators" from computing devices, not to exclude something that is "Four-banger"? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 31 15:20:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 13:20:45 -0800 Subject: The Origins of DOS In-Reply-To: <20061031122615.F54468@shell.lmi.net> References: <200610302053.UAA12341@citadel.metropolis.local>, <20061031122615.F54468@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45474DAD.1065.46314A20@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2006 at 12:34, Fred Cisin wrote: > >From the time that it was introduced (August 1981), the IBM PC 5150 was > also available bare for about $1360 (USD). If you put in your own Tandon > TM100 drives at ~$150 each, instead of IBM's at ~$500 each, put in your > own RAM at ~$75 per 16K v IBM's at $300 per 16K, added a serial card for > ~$150?, added an FDC board for ~$300, a video board for ~$300, and your > own monitor for ~$100 v IBM's at ~$600, etc. you ended up with a machine > at comparable prices to an Apple ][. But it was IBM's picing and packaging of options that engendered the third-party add-on board makers, like Quadram and Everex. What made them really attractive was packing more than a single function on a board (remember that the original 5150 had only 5 expansion slots) So, for example, a board that gave you RAM, a parallel port two serial ports, as well as a clock was very attractive if the alternative was purchasing an expansion box ($$$) for the extra single-function cards that you'd need from IBM. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 31 15:49:52 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 10:49:52 +1300 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <4547B8CF.5050309@oldskool.org> References: <m1GeKL9-000IyeC@p850ug1> <20061029160419.M49896@shell.lmi.net> <f4eb766f0610291633q459421f5ge32b7a3d6466f7b6@mail.gmail.com> <4547B8CF.5050309@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <f4eb766f0610311349o26fa1e68vd0e444ef19346e42@mail.gmail.com> On 11/1/06, Jim Leonard <trixter at oldskool.org> wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I think the point here was to differentiate simple "four-banger > > calculators" from computing devices, not to exclude something that is > > "Four-banger"? A slang term that refers to simple calculators that only know how to do do the basic four operations, addition, subtraction, multiplication, division. I.e. - you can only "bang out" four types of operations on the keyboard. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Four+Banger (meaning 2) http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/archv013.cgi?read=40869 -ethan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Oct 31 15:56:08 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 21:56:08 +0000 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <45474DAD.1065.46314A20@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <C16D76F8.51A3%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Hi folks, I know this was published in the UK media in 1983 which doesn't really vouch for its authenticity, but it gives a good idea of prices for the micros that were available at the time. It's the A-Z of Personal Computers published by Video Press in 1983 and some of its prices are thus: (all UK pounds, multiply by roughly 2 to get the $) Tandy TRS80 M1: 199 Apple ][ and ][e: 1209/1270 Osborne 1: 1430 Commodore 4016: 632 Apple ///: 2418 Apple Lisa: 7500 DEC Rainbow 100: 2300 HH Tiger: 2700 IBM PC: 2390 N* Advantage/Horizon: 2300/2295 ACT Sirius 1 (Victor 9000): 2754 Intertec Superbrain II: 2100 Send your 'oh no it was priced at x' comments to 12 Kingsbridge Ave, London, W3 9AJ, UK though I guess whoever is now at that address won't know what you're talking about given that it was 23 years ago :o)) On 31/10/06 21:20, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > On 31 Oct 2006 at 12:34, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> From the time that it was introduced (August 1981), the IBM PC 5150 was >> also available bare for about $1360 (USD). If you put in your own Tandon >> TM100 drives at ~$150 each, instead of IBM's at ~$500 each, put in your >> own RAM at ~$75 per 16K v IBM's at $300 per 16K, added a serial card for >> ~$150?, added an FDC board for ~$300, a video board for ~$300, and your >> own monitor for ~$100 v IBM's at ~$600, etc. you ended up with a machine >> at comparable prices to an Apple ][. > > But it was IBM's picing and packaging of options that engendered the > third-party add-on board makers, like Quadram and Everex. What made > them really attractive was packing more than a single function on a > board (remember that the original 5150 had only 5 expansion slots) > So, for example, a board that gave you RAM, a parallel port two > serial ports, as well as a clock was very attractive if the > alternative was purchasing an expansion box ($$$) for the extra > single-function cards that you'd need from IBM. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Oct 31 16:04:14 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:04:14 -0500 Subject: Collections of (physically) small computers In-Reply-To: <4547B8CF.5050309@oldskool.org> References: <f4eb766f0610291633q459421f5ge32b7a3d6466f7b6@mail.gmail.com> <m1GeKL9-000IyeC@p850ug1> <20061029160419.M49896@shell.lmi.net> <f4eb766f0610291633q459421f5ge32b7a3d6466f7b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061031165330.059ded88@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jim Leonard may have mentioned these words: >Ethan Dicks wrote: >>I think the point here was to differentiate simple "four-banger >>calculators" from computing devices, not to exclude something that is > >"Four-banger"? Four functions: Addition, Subtraction, Multiplication and Division. I've said it here a coupla times and I'll say 'er again: When I was in high school, the "accepted" definition of a computer was: "A device that performs both arithmetic and logic functions without the aid of a human." Which, in my eyes, seems a pretty decent and logical benchmark. A "four-banger" is not a computer; it can perform arithmetic but it cannot perform any logic on said arithmetic. Even the non-programmable scientific calcs; if there's no logic, it's not a computer. It needs the aid of a human for the logic aspect. Even simple macro-based calcs I wouldn't consider computers if they don't have some form of if/then/else or looping structures (i.e. implying the logic part of the equation). I've had "programmable calculators" that had more memory and nearly as powerful programming language(s) than my first computer - To me, they'd fit the definition of a computer... Anyway, that's my take, and it seems pretty levelheaded to me. When someone comes up with something that makes more logic, I'll either change my mind, or I won't. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 31 16:04:33 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 14:04:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <C16D76F8.51A3%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061031220433.45356.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> > >>> From the time that it was introduced (August > 1981), the IBM PC 5150 was > >> also available bare for about $1360 (USD). From memory (of the ad I read in BYTE within the last 6 months) there was this secretary looking lady proclaiming she could have one on her desk for ~$1700. I don't mean to be contentious (not right now anyway LOL), it's just what I seem to remember the blooming the ultra bare-bones price being. In ultra-bare bones read cassette storage only. But perhaps that included some sort of display adapter (CGA->TV?)...it would have to otherwise it would be essentially an expensive paper weight. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates (http://voice.yahoo.com) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 31 16:29:21 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:29:21 -0700 Subject: Anyone near Goddard Space Flight Center? (Greenbelt, MD) Message-ID: <E1Gf26j-0006VW-00@xmission.xmission.com> This VT50 needs rescuing! <http://sales.gsfc.nasa.gov/web/sales/dsp_viewByCatalog.cfm?sSaleNumber=80322620070013&sViewBy=catalog> <http://sales.gsfc.nasa.gov/web/images/lots/80322620070013/lot019.jpg> These seem to be pretty rare these days, whereas VT-100's are fairly common. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Oct 31 16:41:05 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:41:05 -0000 Subject: Anyone near Goddard Space Flight Center? (Greenbelt, MD) In-Reply-To: <E1Gf26j-0006VW-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <002c01c6fd3d$aba53080$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Richard wrote: > This VT50 needs rescuing! > > <http://sales.gsfc.nasa.gov/web/sales/dsp_viewByCatalog.cfm?sSaleNumber= 80322620070013&sViewBy=catalog> > <http://sales.gsfc.nasa.gov/web/images/lots/80322620070013/lot019.jpg> I'm nowhere near (not even the right continent :-)) but I see this: CASE #: 8032266186S016 ITEM: TERMINAL, DATA PROCESSING MFG: DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORP Model #: VT50AA DESCRIPTION: POC KEN LEE 6X4766/G21053 SERIAL#: 20516NX MFG YEAR: 1986 CONDITION: REPAIRABLE Now "MFG YEAR" of 1986 sounds way too late. Surely the VT100s would have driven the VT5x stuff off customer radar by then? Was DEC really still making VT5x terminals this late in the day? (I wouldn't be at all surprised to know that they were supported a long time beyond that date - for a fee! - but I'm having a hard time believing that they were made and sold in 1986 ....) Antonio From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 31 16:44:51 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:44:51 -0700 Subject: Anyone near Goddard Space Flight Center? (Greenbelt, MD) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:29:21 -0700. <E1Gf26j-0006VW-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <E1Gf2Lj-0001xx-00@xmission.xmission.com> Apparently I misread the date as November 10th, when it was October 11th. Argh... NASA seems to be one of the few gov't agencies that holds onto stuff for *ages*. Anyone have experience with the weapons labs? I hear lots of stuff dribbles out of Los Alamos, but its not exactly close to me... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Oct 31 16:44:44 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:44:44 +0000 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <20061031220433.45356.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <C16D825C.51B0%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 31/10/06 22:04, "Chris M" <chrism3667 at yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> From the time that it was introduced (August >> 1981), the IBM PC 5150 was >>>> also available bare for about $1360 (USD). > > From memory (of the ad I read in BYTE within the last > 6 months) there was this secretary looking lady > proclaiming she could have one on her desk for ~$1700. > I don't mean to be contentious (not right now anyway > LOL), it's just what I seem to remember the blooming > the ultra bare-bones price being. In ultra-bare bones > read cassette storage only. > But perhaps that included some sort of display > adapter (CGA->TV?)...it would have to otherwise it > would be essentially an expensive paper weight. I wish I could easily scan this glued-spine A3 magazine I've got in front of me, perhaps I'll precis it instead :) The IBM PC was launched in 01/83 at ukp2390 and has captured 20% of the US market. The System unit includes an enhanced version of Microsoft BASIC-80 Interpreter without diskette functions. 'The IBM PC is a rather conservative design and is 2 or 3 years out of date. However, it's also true that any design flaws will have been ironed out since it has been available in the US for so long' OS support is interesting: MS DOS, CP/M86, UCSD-P Expansion: Provision for 1x160k Floppy, cassette -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 31 16:46:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:46:40 -0700 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Oct 2006 14:04:33 -0800. <20061031220433.45356.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <E1Gf2NU-00018k-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <20061031220433.45356.qmail at web61022.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M <chrism3667 at yahoo.com> writes: > But perhaps that included some sort of display > adapter (CGA->TV?)...it would have to otherwise it > would be essentially an expensive paper weight. The 5150 came with a monochrome adapter, IIRC, not CGA. CGA was later! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Oct 31 16:51:38 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:51:38 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <4547235B.3039.458BFA53@cclist.sydex.com> References: <21976327.1162263089109.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <45470F70.8000200@yahoo.co.uk> <1162310742.30504.6.camel@linux.site> <4547235B.3039.458BFA53@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <e1d20d630610311451m75705705w5856363d98a2da77@mail.gmail.com> > Now here's where I'm mystified. Why would anyone in their right mind > want to run one of these nowadays? 400Hz power, chilled water supply > for cooling and cordwood modules that would go bad if the phase of > the moon was wrong. Why would anyone in their right mind want to drive a 57 Chevy when a nice Honda is available? Why would anyone in their right mind want to operate a steam locomotive when a nice GM diesel is available? Why would anyone in their right mind want to read a newspaper when a Google news is available? Why would anyone in their right mind want to refinish a table when a Ikea is available? Why would anyone in their right mind want to cook a nice meal when Applebees is available? Because it is enjoyable? -- Will From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 31 11:52:59 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 11:52:59 -0600 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <C16D76F8.51A3%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> References: <C16D76F8.51A3%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <45478D7B.9060608@yahoo.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > Tandy TRS80 M1: 199 > Apple ][ and ][e: 1209/1270 > Osborne 1: 1430 > Commodore 4016: 632 > Apple ///: 2418 > Apple Lisa: 7500 > DEC Rainbow 100: 2300 > HH Tiger: 2700 > IBM PC: 2390 > N* Advantage/Horizon: 2300/2295 > ACT Sirius 1 (Victor 9000): 2754 > Intertec Superbrain II: 2100 You know, I never would have guessed that the Apple /// cost more than an IBM PC! I would have thought it was fairly close, but still a couple of hundred or so less. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 31 11:55:09 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 11:55:09 -0600 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <C16D825C.51B0%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> References: <C16D825C.51B0%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <45478DFD.5060602@yahoo.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: > However, it's also true that any design flaws will have been ironed out > since it has been available in the US for so long' LMAO! And we're still stuck with half of 'em over 20 years later :) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 31 16:59:41 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 14:59:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <E1Gf2NU-00018k-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <20061031225941.95810.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> > The 5150 came with a monochrome adapter, IIRC, not > CGA. CGA was later! Ok, but the relevance of stating one could have (i.e. use) one for $1,700 or whatever seems irrelevant (if an expensive *IBM* monitor had to be added). Don't have the ad in front of me, but I was also of the persuasion any display adapter was optional equipment. But there's nothing to say that an ad needs to be relevant I guess... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited (http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 31 17:00:31 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:00:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <C16D825C.51B0%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> References: <C16D825C.51B0%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061031145409.V54468@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 31 Oct 2006, Adrian Graham wrote: > I wish I could easily scan this glued-spine A3 magazine I've got in front of > me, perhaps I'll precis it instead :) WHAT magazine? > The IBM PC was launched in 01/83 at ukp2390 and has captured 20% of the US > market. The IBM PC (5150) was launched in the USA in AUGUST 1981. By '83, the XT had taken over, and the AT was being almost ready to release. What this implies is that the PC was several years delayed in UK. > The System unit includes an enhanced version of Microsoft BASIC-80 > Interpreter without diskette functions. > 'The IBM PC is a rather conservative design and is 2 or 3 years out of date. number of years is quite subjective -3 < N < 5 > However, it's also true that any design flaws will have been ironed out > since it has been available in the US for so long' hardly. > OS support is interesting: MS DOS, CP/M86, UCSD-P > Expansion: Provision for 1x160k Floppy, cassette The PC (5150) ALWAYS had space for TWO floppy drives. The XT had space for one, with the other bay occupied by a 10M drive. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 31 17:07:07 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 16:07:07 -0700 Subject: Anyone near Goddard Space Flight Center? (Greenbelt, MD) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:41:05 +0000. <002c01c6fd3d$aba53080$5b01a8c0@uatempname> Message-ID: <E1Gf2hH-0001QD-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <002c01c6fd3d$aba53080$5b01a8c0 at uatempname>, <arcarlini at iee.org> writes: > I'm nowhere near (not even the right continent :-)) but I see this: > > CASE #: 8032266186S016 > ITEM: TERMINAL, DATA PROCESSING MFG: DIGITAL > EQUIPMENT CORP Model #: VT50AA > DESCRIPTION: POC KEN LEE 6X4766/G21053 > SERIAL#: 20516NX MFG YEAR: 1986 CONDITION: > REPAIRABLE > > > Now "MFG YEAR" of 1986 sounds way too late. Surely the VT100s would have > driven the VT5x stuff off customer radar by then? Was DEC really still > making VT5x terminals this late in the day? (I wouldn't be at all > surprised to know that they were supported a long time beyond that > date - for a fee! - but I'm having a hard time believing that they > were made and sold in 1986 ....) I doubt that as well, but I've found that these surplus property auction places *rarely* have accurate information about the items. Some poor schmuck is paid minimum wage to enter all the data about all this junked property into a database. What do they care if its accurate? It could be 1976 instead of 1986 and what would they care? By 1979 I remember that the VT5x was becoming rare and the VT100 was becoming the dominant model. VT100.net says the VT52 was introduced in 1975 and the VT100 introduced in 1978. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 31 17:07:34 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:07:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <45478D7B.9060608@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061031230734.19771.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> > > N* Advantage/Horizon: 2300/2295 Umm, where's the Dimension? I want one if anyone's got... > You know, I never would have guessed that the Apple > /// cost more than an IBM > PC! I would have thought it was fairly close, but > still a couple of hundred or > so less. Dude look at the cost of the Lisa just below it (and originally that was 10G's as I recall). Granted we're talking about Apple's and uh...Apples, but that's besides the point. I passed up a primo Apple 3 system recently. Was nice too! But what in blazes would I do with it??? Nice or not-so-nice comments are welcome. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Low, Low, Low Rates! Check out Yahoo! Messenger's cheap PC-to-Phone call rates (http://voice.yahoo.com) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 31 17:08:55 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:08:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <E1Gf2NU-00018k-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <E1Gf2NU-00018k-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <20061031150146.V54468@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 31 Oct 2006, Richard wrote: > The 5150 came with a monochrome adapter, IIRC, not CGA. CGA was later! ONLY IN CERTAIN SUB-MARKETS. CGA and MDP were available at the same time. MDP had much nicer text display; CGA color monitors were very expensive. Therefore, it didin't make much sense to go CGA. UNLESS, . . . you have the extreme level of technical expertise to make or buy a cable to connect a composite video monitor (often with UHF connectors) to the composite RCA jack (or to the 4 pin Berg that was supplied for connecting SUP'RMOD2 RF modulator), and the willingness to accept video quality that was about the same as other current micros, just to save $700. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 31 17:12:45 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:12:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone near Goddard Space Flight Center? (Greenbelt, MD) In-Reply-To: <E1Gf2hH-0001QD-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <E1Gf2hH-0001QD-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <20061031151102.E54468@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 31 Oct 2006, Richard wrote: > > CASE #: 8032266186S016 > > ITEM: TERMINAL, DATA PROCESSING MFG: DIGITAL > > EQUIPMENT CORP Model #: VT50AA > > DESCRIPTION: POC KEN LEE 6X4766/G21053 > > SERIAL#: 20516NX MFG YEAR: 1986 CONDITION: > > REPAIRABLE > I doubt that as well, but I've found that these surplus property > auction places *rarely* have accurate information about the items. > Some poor schmuck is paid minimum wage to enter all the data about all > this junked property into a database. What do they care if its > accurate? It could be 1976 instead of 1986 and what would they care? Very true. > By 1979 I remember that the VT5x was becoming rare and the VT100 was > becoming the dominant model. VT100.net says the VT52 was introduced > in 1975 and the VT100 introduced in 1978. But GSFC was likely to have still been purchasing new VT50s long after newer models had been released. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Oct 31 17:16:49 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:16:49 +0000 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <20061031145409.V54468@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <C16D89E1.51C5%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Fred, Fred, Fred, If you'd read my original message fully you'd have seen me mention not only the magazine name but also its publishers. > The IBM PC (5150) was launched in the USA in AUGUST 1981. > By '83, the XT had taken over, and the AT was being almost ready to > release. *I* know that, I was quoting from the magazine. > What this implies is that the PC was several years delayed in UK. No, this implies I was quoting from a magazine. > The PC (5150) ALWAYS had space for TWO floppy drives. > The XT had space for one, with the other bay occupied by a 10M drive. See above. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 31 17:22:10 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:22:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <20061031150146.V54468@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20061031232210.35856.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> > Therefore, it didin't make much sense to go CGA. > > UNLESS, . . . you have the extreme level of > technical expertise > to make or buy a cable to connect a composite video > monitor > (often with UHF connectors) to the composite RCA > jack (or to the > 4 pin Berg that was supplied for connecting > SUP'RMOD2 RF modulator), > and the willingness to accept video quality that was > about the same > as other current micros, just to save $700. Every composite monitor I've ever seen had an RCA. Needless to say though, I haven't seen it all... I think the idea was that you could get by with less expenditure. The majority of peecees I've seen had the mono monitor plopped atop though. I got to dig out that ad. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates (http://voice.yahoo.com) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 31 17:23:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:23:13 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <e1d20d630610311451m75705705w5856363d98a2da77@mail.gmail.com> References: <21976327.1162263089109.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <4547235B.3039.458BFA53@cclist.sydex.com>, <e1d20d630610311451m75705705w5856363d98a2da77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45476A61.26117.46A167DD@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2006 at 17:51, William Donzelli wrote: > Why would anyone in their right mind want to drive a 57 Chevy when a > nice Honda is available? Dunno--a couple of years ago, I traded a 56 Chevy for a Volvo and was (and still am) much happier--and a lot cleaner. > Why would anyone in their right mind want to read a newspaper when a > Google news is available? One of the local newspapers folded up shop this week, so if you've got a good answer to that one, I'm sure the newspaper business would love to hear about it. > Why would anyone in their right mind want to refinish a table when a > Ikea is available? Because Ikea doesn't make solid teak tables? > Why would anyone in their right mind want to cook a nice meal when > Applebees is available? Because I can cook better than the folks at Applebees--and I don't have to leave home to eat a good meal made from fresh local produce instead of whatever it is that Applebee's uses? Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 31 17:26:02 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:26:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <C16D89E1.51C5%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061031232603.26259.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> > > What this implies is that the PC was several years > delayed in UK. > > No, this implies I was quoting from a magazine. I've heard stuph to the effect that there wasn't alot of Big Blue stuph in the UK, at least not in the early days. Research Machines was a big name though, and common. I still want the blooming Nimbus, but chances are if I'm offered one I'll be too cheap to pay the freight. By all means give it a go though if you find one surplus to your needs. __________________________________________________________________________________________ Check out the New Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 31 17:26:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 15:26:52 -0800 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <20061031150146.V54468@shell.lmi.net> References: <E1Gf2NU-00018k-00@xmission.xmission.com>, <20061031150146.V54468@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45476B3C.25111.46A4C18B@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2006 at 15:08, Fred Cisin wrote: > Therefore, it didin't make much sense to go CGA. ...or unless you needed graphics. :) Cheers, Chuck From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Tue Oct 31 17:28:05 2006 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:28:05 +0000 Subject: RX02 Controller Boards available Message-ID: <11c909eb0610311528j20711884w4b9406d11d78e476@mail.gmail.com> I've got 3 16"x9" (approx) boards here, 2 of which are RX02 related, the other I'm not so sure. The first 2: M7744 RX02 Floppy Disk Controller M7745 RX02 R/W Control . The 3rd, covered in (mostly) 74xxx logic with 5 berg connectors, no DEC style letter+4 digit code, just the words 'DRIVE LOGIC' screened onto side 2. No idea if they are working boards. As I don't have any other kit they might conceivably be useful for, all are free to anyone prepared to cover postage, bear in mind I'm in Chester, UK. Cheers, Pete -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Oct 31 17:37:03 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:37:03 +0000 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <45478D7B.9060608@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <C16D8E9F.51CE%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 31/10/06 17:52, "Jules Richardson" <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > Adrian Graham wrote: >> Tandy TRS80 M1: 199 >> Apple ][ and ][e: 1209/1270 >> Osborne 1: 1430 >> Commodore 4016: 632 >> Apple ///: 2418 >> Apple Lisa: 7500 >> DEC Rainbow 100: 2300 >> HH Tiger: 2700 >> IBM PC: 2390 >> N* Advantage/Horizon: 2300/2295 >> ACT Sirius 1 (Victor 9000): 2754 >> Intertec Superbrain II: 2100 > > You know, I never would have guessed that the Apple /// cost more than an IBM > PC! I would have thought it was fairly close, but still a couple of hundred or > so less. What can I say, it's what was published at the time! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Oct 31 17:45:27 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:45:27 +0000 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <20061031232603.26259.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <C16D9097.51D5%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 31/10/06 23:26, "Chris M" <chrism3667 at yahoo.com> wrote: > common. I still want the blooming Nimbus, but chances > are if I'm offered one I'll be too cheap to pay the > freight. By all means give it a go though if you find > one surplus to your needs. At last count I had 3 base units, one for the museum and the others for whoever wants one. I don't mind shipping over the pond as long as you don't mind waiting until I get home to do so! I live 250 miles away from home during the week so this is a weekend only thing..........also my RM stuff is buried in our garage..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 31 17:55:55 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 16:55:55 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <e1d20d630610311451m75705705w5856363d98a2da77@mail.gmail.com> References: <21976327.1162263089109.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <45470F70.8000200@yahoo.co.uk> <1162310742.30504.6.camel@linux.site> <4547235B.3039.458BFA53@cclist.sydex.com> <e1d20d630610311451m75705705w5856363d98a2da77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4547E28B.8010806@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > Why would anyone in their right mind want to operate a steam > locomotive when a nice GM diesel is available? Coal is cheap in China! -- > Will > > . > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 31 17:33:36 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:33:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <200610310715.k9V7Fi9S012794@dune.cs.drexel.edu> from "Vassilis PREVELAKIS" at Oct 31, 6 02:15:44 am Message-ID: <m1Gf372-000IycC@p850ug1> > > > sorry I couldn't resist ... > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > I think the distinction I normally use is often called 'keeper'. That's a > > pun on 'Key Per Function' meaning a calcultor has, say, a key labelled > > 'SIN', whereas on a computer you spell it out. Byt that definition the > > HP41 is a calculator (although you _can_ spell out the function names if > > you want to), the HP9830 most vertainly isn't. > > so what does this make the Sinclair ZX-80, ZX-81 and Spectrum systems? The exception that proves the rule ? :-) (I couldn't resist either). > (I am not even sure you *could* type in the commands, I think you *had* > to press the appropriate function key). You do. It saved them having to fit a tokenising routine into the ROM. So how do you distinguish 'calculator' from 'computer'? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 31 17:37:10 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:37:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20061031093136.06928e80@alpha.ccii.co.za> from "Wouter" at Oct 31, 6 09:35:07 am Message-ID: <m1Gf3AU-000IydC@p850ug1> > >I suppose my Acorn System One is probably my smallest system - two Eurocards, > > Sharp PC 1500. Lovelly little machine :-). I have a couple, along with the printer/plotter and the RS232 interface. Oh, and the technical manual... [...] > > I have the manuals to program the thing in assembler so it definitely > counts as a computer not a programmable calculator (I do regard the > smaller Sharp jobbies as glorified calculators even if they have > BASIC and a full mini-keyboard. I recently bought a Sharp PC1350, which is one of the 'smaller Sharp jobbies'. I would claim that's a computer, it can be programemd in machine code (I have the machine language manual and the service manual), it's got the tranditional CPU + ROM + RAM + I/O type of architecture, there's even a built-in CMOS-level serial port (I got the RS232 interface with mine, it's just a level shifter). All I need to find now is a CE124 cassette interface (I suspect that's little more than a level shifter too...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 31 17:39:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:39:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <45471956.9010705@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Oct 31, 6 03:37:26 am Message-ID: <m1Gf3DF-000IyeC@p850ug1> > > Al Kossow wrote: > > Surviving systems from before 1975 are very rare animals, esp mainframes, > > since so many of them have been scrapped for precious metals. Sadly, there > > is even less software that has survived. > > You know, I almost think that the UK picture is a little brighter in this > respect. Certainly there still seem to be healthy enough numbers of pre-1975 > "desk sized" systems about (meaning that there are enough about for anyone who I would agree. I haev 3 or 4 pre-1975 Unibus PDP11s, a PDP8/e, a Philips P850 and an HP9830 (along with a couple of 9100Bs, a couple of 9810s and a 9820 if you count those as computers). I don't think any are _that_ rare... Mainfreames are prohably another matter. I've not tried to collect those, I certainly don't have the space for one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 31 17:44:24 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:44:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: A question regarding floppy drives functionality.. In-Reply-To: <4547873E.5030200@bluewin.ch> from "Marian Capel" at Oct 31, 6 06:26:22 pm Message-ID: <m1Gf3HT-000IygC@p850ug1> > > Since this list has a number of people that are very knowledgable on the > subject : > > Am i correct in thinking that, given a custom FDC, i could run a modern > 1.44 floppy in FM mode, and at much lower data rates i.e. (say 50 KHz.) ? You;ll have no problem with using FM, but I thought there was a minimum data rate requirement too. Certainly the read output will give a fixed-width pulse for every flux transtion on the media (so don't expect the read data output to faithfully reproduce the pulses you fed into the write data line, in fact just the leading edges will be preserved). I had an idea that if the flux transitions were too far apart then some part of the read chain got confused, but maybe not. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 31 17:47:05 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:47:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <4547235B.3039.458BFA53@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 31, 6 10:20:11 am Message-ID: <m1Gf3K4-000IyjC@p850ug1> > > On 31 Oct 2006 at 11:05, Warren Wolfe wrote: > > > That's painful, isn't it? When I was attending Michigan State > > University, the computer we used for our programming projects was a > > Control Data 6500, later upgraded to a 6600. . They tried to > > sell it. > > Now here's where I'm mystified. Why would anyone in their right mind > want to run one of these nowadays? 400Hz power, chilled water supply Since when have any of us been in our right mind here? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 31 17:52:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:52:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <C16D76F8.51A3%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> from "Adrian Graham" at Oct 31, 6 09:56:08 pm Message-ID: <m1Gf3PQ-000IylC@p850ug1> > HH Tiger: 2700 > IBM PC: 2390 You mean a Tiger was more expensive than an IBM PC? No wonder the former didn't sell... OK, it's a nice machine (Z80 + 6809 for I/O + 7220 graphics chip), but still... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 31 17:56:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:56:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <20061031145409.V54468@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 31, 6 03:00:31 pm Message-ID: <m1Gf3TR-000IynC@p850ug1> > The PC (5150) ALWAYS had space for TWO floppy drives. > The XT had space for one, with the other bay occupied by a 10M drive. It was possible to get the XT with 2 floppy drives (and no hard drive). My XT came like that, and AFAIK both drives are original (they are both IBM-badged). -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 31 18:20:07 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:20:07 -0700 Subject: Collections of (physically) large computers In-Reply-To: <m1Gf372-000IycC@p850ug1> References: <m1Gf372-000IycC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4547E837.3070300@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > You do. It saved them having to fit a tokenising routine into the ROM. > > So how do you distinguish 'calculator' from 'computer'? They work better as a door jam. :) > -tony > > . > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 31 18:21:50 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:21:50 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <m1Gf3K4-000IyjC@p850ug1> References: <m1Gf3K4-000IyjC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <4547E89E.8000006@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >>Now here's where I'm mystified. Why would anyone in their right mind >>want to run one of these nowadays? 400Hz power, chilled water supply > Since when have any of us been in our right mind here? Don't that come under 'VAX BAR'? > -tony > > . > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Oct 31 18:26:03 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 00:26:03 +0000 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <m1Gf3PQ-000IylC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <C16D9A1B.51E6%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 31/10/06 23:52, "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> HH Tiger: 2700 >> IBM PC: 2390 > > You mean a Tiger was more expensive than an IBM PC? No wonder the former > didn't sell... OK, it's a nice machine (Z80 + 6809 for I/O + 7220 > graphics chip), but still... According to this magazine here next to me, yes. I need to dig out my copy of 'Personal Computer News' that had the Tiger on the cover plus in-depth review to be sure. Presumably you know the Tiger was a Tangerine design that had been bought by H|H, a company still known for its guitar amplifier units? Why H|H decided to try to break into the PC market is anyone's guess. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Oct 31 18:26:47 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 00:26:47 +0000 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <m1Gf3K4-000IyjC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <C16D9A47.51E7%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> On 31/10/06 23:47, "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >> On 31 Oct 2006 at 11:05, Warren Wolfe wrote: >> >>> That's painful, isn't it? When I was attending Michigan State >>> University, the computer we used for our programming projects was a >>> Control Data 6500, later upgraded to a 6600. . They tried to >>> sell it. >> >> Now here's where I'm mystified. Why would anyone in their right mind >> want to run one of these nowadays? 400Hz power, chilled water supply > > Since when have any of us been in our right mind here? Quote of the year, there :oD -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 31 18:30:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 16:30:23 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <m1Gf3K4-000IyjC@p850ug1> References: <4547235B.3039.458BFA53@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Oct 31, 6 10:20:11 am, <m1Gf3K4-000IyjC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <45477A1F.11971.46DEE784@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2006 at 23:47, Tony Duell wrote: > Since when have any of us been in our right mind here? Or, as a friend of mine recently put it. "You know, I really like pancakes and have eaten some truly memorable ones, but I've never had the urge to collect them." :) Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 31 19:03:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:03:11 -0800 Subject: A question regarding floppy drives functionality.. In-Reply-To: <m1Gf3HT-000IygC@p850ug1> References: <4547873E.5030200@bluewin.ch> from "Marian Capel" at Oct 31, 6 06:26:22 pm, <m1Gf3HT-000IygC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <454781CF.6576.46FCED88@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2006 at 23:44, Tony Duell wrote: > Certainly the read output will give a fixed-width pulse for every flux > transtion on the media (so don't expect the read data output to > faithfully reproduce the pulses you fed into the write data line, in fact > just the leading edges will be preserved). I had an idea that if the flux > transitions were too far apart then some part of the read chain got > confused, but maybe not. I know that most drives have low-pass filtering on them, but I'm not so sure about high-pass. The OP was asking about a 50 KHz data rate, which I think is probably within the bandpass of most drives, at least at the double-density (250K) rate. I do recall that some older drives using the MC3470 read amp will belch out a false read pulse if it's been too long since the last one. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 31 19:05:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:05:35 -0800 Subject: More ePay items Message-ID: <4547825F.31444.46FF1F32@cclist.sydex.com> If anyone's interested, I've just listed a NIB Micro Solutions 3.5" Backpack drive and a NIB CompatiCard IV for auction. Thanks, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 31 19:22:42 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:22:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: dude...yer gettin' a Dell Message-ID: <20061101012242.75529.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> or it's progenitor rather: http://cgi.ebay.com/Collectible-Personal-Computer-PCs-Limited-brand_W0QQitemZ230043218116QQihZ013QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem funny, you can get a new Dell for less cash though. Ouch. And that appears to be a goofy Tandy monitor sitting atop. Don't that really sweeten the pot. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business (http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com) From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Oct 31 19:31:09 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 20:31:09 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <m1Gf3DF-000IyeC@p850ug1> References: <m1Gf3DF-000IyeC@p850ug1> Message-ID: <20061101013109.F0973BA4199@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I would agree. I haev 3 or 4 pre-1975 Unibus PDP11s, a PDP8/e, a Philips > P850 and an HP9830 (along with a couple of 9100Bs, a couple of 9810s and > a 9820 if you count those as computers). I can forsee a world where computers are being saved, but peripherals and special-purpose machines (calculators, industrial controllers, sequencers, etc.) are not. Why? Well, they aren't computers. And we're all here talking about computers. And while there are museums of "science and industry" they can only sample the automation that was happening from the 1800's through the 20th century, often having the control system but none of the machinery, or the other way around. But they truly do set the context for the industry and people and machines. And in the case of the peripherals, the computers aren't particularly useful without them! Private collectors fall into the same trap as the institutions and museums, ending up with lots of CPU's but few of the necessary peripherals. Tim. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Oct 31 19:33:34 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:33:34 -0800 Subject: EBCDIC Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036555@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: You mean you don't have how to create your own EBCDIC table memorized? I memorized it over 16 years ago, and oddly enough I still remember it. Zane Sorry. I grew up in the world of BCD and 6 bit characters. CDC finally started cutting in ASCII in the late 60's, but with little enthusiasm. EBCDIC is something I only encounter when restoring old IBM et al machines. And even then, usually it is just the codes that were perverted into vendor unique control characters that I have to question. Billy From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 31 19:56:34 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 18:56:34 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Oct 2006 20:31:09 -0500. <20061101013109.F0973BA4199@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <E1Gf5LG-0002IH-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <20061101013109.F0973BA4199 at mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) writes: > I can forsee a world where computers are being saved, but peripherals > and special-purpose machines (calculators, industrial controllers, > sequencers, etc.) are not. I agree, which is why I started collecting in two areas: serial terminals and graphics boxes. "Graphics boxes" includes things like dial boxes, button boxes and graphics tablets and even plotters. However, I see things like large line printers and other such early printing peripherals seem to be rare. They only seem to appear in people's collections if they were part of a big bundle. Any other peripheral collectors out there? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 31 20:04:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 18:04:40 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <20061101013109.F0973BA4199@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <m1Gf3DF-000IyeC@p850ug1>, <20061101013109.F0973BA4199@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <45479038.22326.4735378C@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2006 at 20:31, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Private collectors fall into the same trap as the institutions > and museums, ending up with lots of CPU's but few of the necessary > peripherals. Bravo, Tim! In my way of thinking, the LEAST important part of a system is the CPU--heck, you can easily recreate that (or at leas a simulacrum) using modern components. But peripherals are a whole 'nuther smoke. Very difficult to reproduce without expending large hunks of labor and money--and essential to resurrecting the recorded media of bygone days. And it's the peripherals that are the very devil to keep in working order. Heck, if you want to show folks a Spectrola 70 CPU, just keep the empty cabinets and blinkenlights and stick a PeeCee inside with lots of I/O lines to run the switches and lights. You'll have less grief in the long run than if you had the real innards.. Bits are bits; they don't care how old the iron is. After alll, it was the tape drives that defined a computer for Hollywood for many years... Cheers, Chuck From drb at msu.edu Tue Oct 31 20:06:35 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 21:06:35 -0500 Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 31 Oct 2006 21:56:08 GMT.) <C16D76F8.51A3%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> References: <C16D76F8.51A3%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> Message-ID: <200611010206.kA126ZRr026063@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Osborne 1: 1430 For comparison, I bought an Osborne 1 in the US in the Fall of '82. I bought with it an Epson MX-80 Graftrax, and a 300 baud Hayes Smartmodem. I didn't pay anywhere near USD2800 for the whole setup; if memory serves, it was much closer to USD1800. The point of my comment is that these US-made machines seem to have been more expensive in the UK than the US -- hardly surprising. Figuring out what UK prices were in equivalent USD is fairly simple, but figuring out US prices from that list isn't trivial. De From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 31 20:07:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 18:07:56 -0800 Subject: EBCDIC In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036555@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036555@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <454790FC.28155.4738340B@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2006 at 17:33, Billy Pettit wrote: > Sorry. I grew up in the world of BCD and 6 bit characters. CDC finally > started cutting in ASCII in the late 60's, but with little enthusiasm. ...yup, my 7600 quick reference card has ASCII on it in addition to BCD and card punch codes. I never could figure out what the ASCII column was for. OTOH, the Cyber 200/STAR machines were strictly ASCII boxes--but they also used 8 bit characters. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Oct 31 20:54:27 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 19:54:27 -0700 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Oct 2006 18:04:40 -0800. <45479038.22326.4735378C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <E1Gf6FH-0002HD-00@xmission.xmission.com> In article <45479038.22326.4735378C at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes: > After alll, it was the tape drives that defined a computer for > Hollywood for many years... So far noone has responded to my earlier query in the affirmative: Does anyone have enough tape drives that they can do the multi-drive merge/sort tape algorithms described in Knuth's Art of Computer Programming? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 31 20:54:47 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 18:54:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1983 Micro prices (was Re: The Origins of DOS) In-Reply-To: <200611010206.kA126ZRr026063@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <C16D76F8.51A3%witchy@binarydinosaurs.co.uk> <200611010206.kA126ZRr026063@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20061031185325.V71584@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 31 Oct 2006, Dennis Boone wrote: > The point of my comment is that these US-made machines seem to have > been more expensive in the UK than the US -- hardly surprising. > Figuring out what UK prices were in equivalent USD is fairly simple, > but figuring out US prices from that list isn't trivial. ...and a price comparison of USA machines using only what they were peddled for in UK seems somewhat futile From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Oct 31 21:45:51 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 21:45:51 -0600 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <E1Gf6FH-0002HD-00@xmission.xmission.com> References: <E1Gf6FH-0002HD-00@xmission.xmission.com> Message-ID: <4548186F.30908@mdrconsult.com> Richard wrote: > In article <45479038.22326.4735378C at cclist.sydex.com>, > "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes: > >> After alll, it was the tape drives that defined a computer for >> Hollywood for many years... > > So far noone has responded to my earlier query in the affirmative: > > Does anyone have enough tape drives that they can do the > multi-drive merge/sort tape algorithms described in Knuth's > Art of Computer Programming? How many would that be? Doc <-- mechanic, not programmer From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 31 21:58:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 19:58:50 -0800 Subject: "All in one" Early PCs Message-ID: <4547AAFA.3803.479DBC94@cclist.sydex.com> All: Since I couldn't find much on the web about it, I decided to snap a couple of photos and put the information on my Durango F-85 system on a web page. http://www.sydex.com/durango/durango.html I've actually got two of these things; the second has the integrated hard disk but is otherwise the same. Does anyone think a photo of the external hard drive (SA-4008) would be worthwhile including? How about an old (and worthless) Durango stock certificate? Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Oct 31 22:00:49 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:00:49 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <4548186F.30908@mdrconsult.com> References: <E1Gf6FH-0002HD-00@xmission.xmission.com> <4548186F.30908@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200610312300.49417.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 31 October 2006 22:45, Doc Shipley wrote: > Richard wrote: > > In article <45479038.22326.4735378C at cclist.sydex.com>, > > > > "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes: > >> After alll, it was the tape drives that defined a computer for > >> Hollywood for many years... > > > > So far noone has responded to my earlier query in the affirmative: > > > > Does anyone have enough tape drives that they can do the > > multi-drive merge/sort tape algorithms described in Knuth's > > Art of Computer Programming? > > How many would that be? Assuming it's the same as the one talked about on here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merge_sort That's 4 drives. I could easily do that on DLT or 3480 media. :) I've got enough 9-tracks to do that, but they're not all of the same interface type, so it would be somewhat harder to do... (3 IBM 3420's, 2 DEC TU81+'s, 2 SCSI 9 tracks, and a partridge..er.. Fujitsu M2444 PERTEC tape drive.) I guess I could probably set up a VAX with two TU81+'s and the SCSI tape drives... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Oct 31 22:07:24 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 22:07:24 -0600 Subject: "All in one" Early PCs References: <4547AAFA.3803.479DBC94@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <01e801c6fd6b$3e39ef30$07406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 9:58 PM Subject: "All in one" Early PCs > All: > > Since I couldn't find much on the web about it, I decided to snap a > couple of photos and put the information on my Durango F-85 system on > a web page. > > http://www.sydex.com/durango/durango.html > > I've actually got two of these things; the second has the integrated > hard disk but is otherwise the same. Does anyone think a photo of > the external hard drive (SA-4008) would be worthwhile including? > > How about an old (and worthless) Durango stock certificate? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > I collect old stock certificates from old computer companies that have gone forever, plus some of the ones still with us like IBM. From spc at conman.org Tue Oct 31 22:31:00 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:31:00 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <4548186F.30908@mdrconsult.com> References: <E1Gf6FH-0002HD-00@xmission.xmission.com> <4548186F.30908@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20061101043100.GB32663@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Doc Shipley once stated: > Richard wrote: > >In article <45479038.22326.4735378C at cclist.sydex.com>, > > "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes: > > > >>After alll, it was the tape drives that defined a computer for > >>Hollywood for many years... > > > >So far noone has responded to my earlier query in the affirmative: > > > > Does anyone have enough tape drives that they can do the > > multi-drive merge/sort tape algorithms described in Knuth's > > Art of Computer Programming? > > How many would that be? How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop? Let's find out ... one ... tw-hooo ... three <crunch>. Oh, sorry. Chapter 5.4.6: six tapes are used in the sample given in the section. -spc (But the algorithm has been generalized for P tapes ... ) From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Oct 31 23:18:12 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 23:18:12 -0600 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <200610312300.49417.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <E1Gf6FH-0002HD-00@xmission.xmission.com> <4548186F.30908@mdrconsult.com> <200610312300.49417.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <45482E14.3060405@mdrconsult.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday 31 October 2006 22:45, Doc Shipley wrote: >> Richard wrote: >>> In article <45479038.22326.4735378C at cclist.sydex.com>, >>> >>> "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes: >>>> After alll, it was the tape drives that defined a computer for >>>> Hollywood for many years... >>> So far noone has responded to my earlier query in the affirmative: >>> >>> Does anyone have enough tape drives that they can do the >>> multi-drive merge/sort tape algorithms described in Knuth's >>> Art of Computer Programming? >> How many would that be? > > Assuming it's the same as the one talked about on here: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merge_sort > > That's 4 drives. I could easily do that on DLT or 3480 media. :) Hrrrm. I think I could do that on TZ30s. *shudder* I know I could do it on SCSI DDS. > I guess I could probably set up a VAX with two TU81+'s and the SCSI tape > drives... I could do that on the 11/84. Two TU80s and 2 TSZ07 Or cheat horribly and attach a bunch of TU58 emulators to a box with multi-line serial board.... Doc From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 31 23:43:10 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 21:43:10 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <45482E14.3060405@mdrconsult.com> References: <E1Gf6FH-0002HD-00@xmission.xmission.com>, <200610312300.49417.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <45482E14.3060405@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <4547C36E.1517.47FD3E08@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Oct 2006 at 23:18, Doc Shipley wrote: > Or cheat horribly and attach a bunch of TU58 emulators to a box with > multi-line serial board.... ...or just do it with some disk files. When I first encountered really big (100MB+) hard disk storage, one of the guys on my programming team was ecstatic because he thought he could invent some really new and revolutionary sort using disk files-- after all, random access, unlike tape, takes little more time than consecutive access (why did IBM ever call it "sequential"?) on a disk file. After about a month of fooling around with various ideas, he reported that his balloon had been burst--a plain old balanced merge worked about as well as anything. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 31 16:00:37 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:00:37 -0500 Subject: A question regarding floppy drives functionality.. Message-ID: <0J8000GUAT1BAZVF@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: A question regarding floppy drives functionality.. > From: Marian Capel <marian.capel at bluewin.ch> > Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 18:26:22 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Since this list has a number of people that are very knowledgable on the >subject : > >Am i correct in thinking that, given a custom FDC, i could run a modern >1.44 floppy in FM mode, and at much lower data rates i.e. (say 50 KHz.) ? You may not be able to run that slow but you could test by recording square waves of varying frequencies and look at what comes back. >Background : I am musing on how to give a small amount of storage, say >around 100kb, to a very small low tech cpu. >I do not care about speed and efficiency. Myself for 100k I'd use a EEprom. Eprom or even 128k ram with a battery. >I am aware that IDE-based solutions are simpler, both hard- and software >wise, but I would prefer a floppy based solution. FYI the slowest floppies are the oldest 5.25 like the SA400 and TM100 as they will reach down to 64khz, I did some testing once. I'd suspect some of the later 360k drives would do well (slow data) too. I do know that most of the 360k drives work fine at FM (single density) data rates (125khz). Allison From cctech at porky.vax-11.org Tue Oct 31 17:31:40 2006 From: cctech at porky.vax-11.org (cctech at porky.vax-11.org) Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 16:31:40 -0700 (MST) Subject: Tales of Ancient E-Mail In-Reply-To: <1162318204.30504.53.camel@linux.site> References: <45461692.3010502@webhart.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20061031105358.0590c308@mail> <1162318204.30504.53.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0610311626450.12689@porky.vax-11.org> I do NOT want to start a flame war here. <Proceed with inflammatory comments> I would argue that since the program you co-developed did not actually move the message from one place to another, it is better described as a bulletin board system than an email system. <End of inflammation> On the other hand, Tomlinson's work is moving message from one place to another, presumably with some form of routing, so it qualifies (in my tiny brain) as email. Do you know what the mechanism for moving messages was? It is my belief that UUCP was used to move the first email messages, but I could be wrong. Regards, Clint On Tue, 31 Oct 2006, Warren Wolfe wrote: > Hello, All, > > At the risk of setting some folks off, I'd like to institute a claim > that I was involved one of the very first e-mail projects in history. > Recently, I saw a couple of alpha geeks arguing over which one of them > wrote the first e-mail program, based on full functionality versus first > actual use, and some other technical considerations. I was interested, > and kept watching. I was totally shocked when they started talking > about the dates involved (no, not dates with women -- get real.) because > they were in 1975 and 1976. I was wondering what it was that caused > them to ignore things about which I know... > > I know that Fernando Corbato's group at M.I.T. developed something > like e-mail, which was functionally identical to the system we > developed, in 1965. It required all users to use the same computer > system. I also know that, in 1971 or 1972, about the time we did our > project, Ray Tomlinson developed the first e-mail system that sent mail > between computers, incidentally using the "@" character to signify the > beginning of the host name. But, when we were working on our program, > we knew nothing of either of these projects. > > When I was in my senior year of high school, around Novmber of 1971, > I "took over" the computer that served our school district. I hacked > through, and figured out the scheme used to create passwords for the > various schools. Therefore, I could log into the area of all of the > schools, with one or two exceptions, whose codes I either figured out or > "James Bonded" over the next couple of weeks, while I simultaneously > learned all the system administration functions and commands. (ASR-33 > paper tape, set to punch, short strip of tape, positioned to curl up > inside the mechanism - viola! Key logging...) Much to my surprise, > however, when I broke in I found convincing evidence that there were not > one, but two other people who did the same thing at, apparently, EXACTLY > the same time. Before long, we were all talking on the phone, and got > together. > > One of the others was named Chet Heiber, also a senior, and after I > graduated, I never saw him again. The other guy was Max Rubow, a > junior, who remains a close personal friend to this day. On the > computer, we would leave text files for each other with suggestive > names, in various directories. Soon, we found one directory which was > given to a school which didn't have anyone interested in the computer, > leaving an empty directory, which we appropriated. > > I was grousing about our system of messaging one day, and Max > challenged me to come up with a better way. Okay, I said, and started > describing a database of records with sender, recipient, "has been > read", and time/date stamp fields. I got into it, and actually, on the > spot, fleshed out a pretty good working arrangement for e-mail. Max was > impressed. Much to my surprise, about two weeks later, he approached me > with a program (which almost worked) to implement what I had been > blue-skying with him. We worked together on the system, and actually > had it working, and used, before I graduated in June of 1972. Over the > next year, without me, Max polished it up, and had a very good, stable, > and functional system which stored every sort of information available > to a running HP-2000B BASIC program in the file. It was, actually, > full-featured e-mail, albeit limited to one machine. > > While I had the original inspiration, Max wrote the vast majority of > the code. I helped out for a couple of months before I graduated, but > my estimate is that less than 10% of the code was mine by the time it > worked, and even less, after all the enhancements the next year brought. > Now, if these jokers can argue over whether their 1975 or 1976 programs > were first... why can't I argue that our 1972 program was first? I > STILL want to know how they passed over Tomlinson and Corbato... > > Anyway, I have, somewhere, a spool of paper tape from a Teletype > 33-ASR punch which contains a version (I'm not sure WHICH version) of > the READER program. I would imagine that this is relatively easy to get > moved into the modern world. Yes? I'd kind of like to get all my old > stuff, hollerith cards, paper tape, HP store tape, etc. on a disk... > > > > Peace, > > Warren E. Wolfe > wizard at voyager.net > >