From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 00:46:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:46:57 -0800 Subject: WANTED: 8088 Assembler In-Reply-To: <43E01415.6000706@brutman.com> References: <20060201012635.99991.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43E01415.6000706@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200601312246570478.4B1208F0@10.0.0.252> Want some freebie x86 assemblers? Look here: http://www.simtel.net/category.php%5Bid%5D16%5BSiteID%5Dsimtel.net From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 1 01:53:00 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 01:53:00 -0600 Subject: WANTED: 8088 Assembler In-Reply-To: <200601312246570478.4B1208F0@10.0.0.252> References: <20060201012635.99991.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43E01415.6000706@brutman.com> <200601312246570478.4B1208F0@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43E068DC.9000007@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Want some freebie x86 assemblers? > > Look here: > > http://www.simtel.net/category.php%5Bid%5D16%5BSiteID%5Dsimtel.net Here's my vote for the best one of that bunch: http://eji.com/a86/ And comes with a pretty good debugger (not the best I've used, but the best *free* one I've used). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Feb 1 05:47:25 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 11:47:25 +0000 Subject: WANTED: 8088 Assembler In-Reply-To: <43E068DC.9000007@oldskool.org> References: <20060201012635.99991.qmail@web34114.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <43E01415.6000706@brutman.com> <200601312246570478.4B1208F0@10.0.0.252> <43E068DC.9000007@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43E09FCD.2050602@gjcp.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Want some freebie x86 assemblers? >> >> Look here: >> >> http://www.simtel.net/category.php%5Bid%5D16%5BSiteID%5Dsimtel.net > > Here's my vote for the best one of that bunch: http://eji.com/a86/ > And comes with a pretty good debugger (not the best I've used, but the > best *free* one I've used). A86 does indeed rock. For a long time, A86 and D86 were my weapon of choice. Gordon. From billdeg at degnanco.com Wed Feb 1 08:24:19 2006 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 09:24:19 -0500 Subject: (Slightly OT) Rare item I passed up: mCGA In-Reply-To: <200602010738.k117cilJ088827@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060201090941.028dbec0@mail.degnanco.net> When I worked at DuPont they disposed of an IBM "mCGA" monitor and display card among some other parts that I could take from work if I wanted them. The card came out of an IBM XT and the monitor looked pretty much like a regular IBM CGA monitor except that it had more of a green tint to the screen when powered off. In use it looked pretty much like a regular CGA monitor but that might be because I was only interested in verifying that I could view the RAM loading sequence upon boot up. I remember that a regular CGA was not compatible with the card, and that's the reason I originally set these two aside. We needed a "regular XT setup" more than we needed a funky monitor. I assumed it was for CAD work. Haven't seen once since. Anyone have info on this IBM CGA-like "mCGA" I can't remember what the m stood for. Bill D From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Feb 1 08:34:47 2006 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 09:34:47 -0500 Subject: Me vs NiCad battery damage on PC boards Message-ID: A lot of nice radio/test/computer equipment from the late 70's through the 80's and even the early 90's had the "feature" of battery-backed-up configuration settings. Often this was done thorugh NiCads soldered to the PC board (often in those little plastic modules). Over the years, the NiCads have usually leaked out their gunk (if not liquid, then fumes?) which has gone on to attack the PC boards and components/sockets around it. All the originally shiny metal now has a layer of white or white/green deposits over it. My primitive chemical understanding is that something-hydroxide (calcium hydroxide, sodium hydroxide?) from the battery gets out (if not as a liquid, then as a vapor) which is a base. This corrodes the metal surfaces around the battery. In my most recent escapade, I took such a board and put it in some dilute acetic acid (think "vinegar" except I was using some photo chemicals and I probably had the concentration stronger than the grocery store vinegar). The deposits turn even greener (in some cases bluer but maybe that was the indicator in the stop bath). Using a plastic brush I scrub away these deposits, but this does not result in a shiny clean PC board. Again, my primitive chemical understanding: the acid combines with the base whatevery-hydroxide and what we're left with salts. Rinsing in water and repeating does help get off more of the gunk but it's never all gone. In any event, I've at least slowed (maybe stopped) damage to the PC board, and after drying off I find it still works - in some cases works better because we don't have all the gunk anymore. When I see the gunk I see it mostly as an insulator that will stop conductivity, but of course it also bridges together traces and probably gives very real leakage in some cases too. Incidentally in many cases the board doesn't work right until it is really really dry, so I think that in some cases just the leakage due to the rinse water is enough to inhibit normal operation. But now, say I want to remove a somewhat corroded IC socket off the board because I suspect it's causing problems. I put my soldering iron on the pad and try to heat up and melt the solder. I heat, and heat, and heat, but nothing's melting! Check that the soldering iron is working and that the tip isn't covered with crud... well, maybe there was some crud but after wiping it off the soldering iron is working fine. So I go in with a wire brush and an X-acto knife and try getting past whatever chemical is still covering the pads and traces, and find it's really tough stuff. The wire brush works but it also erodes the traces. The X-acto knife works somewhat on pads with solder on 'em. After repeated attacks, though, the solder still doesn't really want to melt. I try putting on some new solder thinking that the rosin and new new metal will help, but all it does is ball up and roll off. So what I'm left with is a PC board that is somewhat/mostly working but in cosmetically poor shape, and feeling that I should do more. What's semi-ironic about all this is that the board usually doesn't have any more than $10 worth of parts on it but an instrument that cost $10K twenty years ago (and is maybe worth $1K today on the used market) is dependent on this still crud-covered PC board that I can't even fix the sockets on. Buying a replacement PC board is usually out of the question because they haven't made this doohickey in 20 years, and all the boards out there all have NiCad leakage damage on them. One solution would be to lay out a clone PC board that never had the NiCad damage done to it and stuff it with new parts. Realistically in some cases this would take less time to do than I've already spent cleaning/rinsing/drying/attempting to solder on the existing board. But is there some magic chemical or mechanical means that will render the existing cruddy PC board solderable so I can replace these flaky sockets? Tim. From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 08:41:29 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 14:41:29 +0000 Subject: (Slightly OT) Rare item I passed up: mCGA In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060201090941.028dbec0@mail.degnanco.net> References: <200602010738.k117cilJ088827@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20060201090941.028dbec0@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <26c11a640602010641h5f67e88g@mail.gmail.com> On 01/02/06, B. Degnan wrote: > When I worked at DuPont they disposed of an IBM "mCGA" monitor and display > card among some other parts that I could take from work if I wanted > them. The card came out of an IBM XT and the monitor looked pretty much > like a regular IBM CGA monitor except that it had more of a green tint to > the screen when powered off. In use it looked pretty much like a regular > CGA monitor but that might be because I was only interested in verifying > that I could view the RAM loading sequence upon boot up. I remember that a > regular CGA was not compatible with the card, and that's the reason I > originally set these two aside. We needed a "regular XT setup" more than > we needed a funky monitor. I assumed it was for CAD work. Haven't seen > once since. Anyone have info on this IBM CGA-like "mCGA" I can't > remember what the m stood for. > Bill D > > > > > > Try here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicolor_Graphics_Adapter Dan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 08:48:46 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 09:48:46 -0500 Subject: (Slightly OT) Rare item I passed up: mCGA In-Reply-To: <26c11a640602010641h5f67e88g@mail.gmail.com> References: <200602010738.k117cilJ088827@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20060201090941.028dbec0@mail.degnanco.net> <26c11a640602010641h5f67e88g@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43E0CA4E.9070608@gmail.com> Dan Williams wrote: >>When I worked at DuPont they disposed of an IBM "mCGA" monitor and display >>card among some other parts that I could take from work if I wanted >>them. The card came out of an IBM XT and the monitor looked pretty much >>like a regular IBM CGA monitor except that it had more of a green tint to >>the screen when powered off. In use it looked pretty much like a regular >>CGA monitor but that might be because I was only interested in verifying >>that I could view the RAM loading sequence upon boot up. I remember that a >>regular CGA was not compatible with the card, and that's the reason I >>originally set these two aside. We needed a "regular XT setup" more than >>we needed a funky monitor. I assumed it was for CAD work. Haven't seen >>once since. Anyone have info on this IBM CGA-like "mCGA" I can't >>remember what the m stood for. > > Try here : > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicolor_Graphics_Adapter I don't believe that's the same thing. I believe the mCGA was the monochrome "CGA". It's capable of graphics, unlike MDA. Peace... Sridhar From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Feb 1 09:11:00 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 07:11:00 -0800 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <200601312133150520.4ACE8FAA@10.0.0.252> References: <1138748199.43dfeb272e0a8@webmail.secure-wi.com> <43E01306.30004@brutman.com> <200601312133150520.4ACE8FAA@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <1138806660.43e0cf849be6b@webmail.secure-wi.com> I like the BIOS ROM extension better myself, but what I grabbed is what I grabbed ... It occurred to me last night that I had not changed the CMOS settings for the drive, so the nice 600+MB IDE drive that I stuck in there was being treated like the old full-height monster that it replaced. Today's project will be to put a Promise EIDE MAX in a spare slot - that will give it the BIOS extension that it needs to recognize larger drives. I'm also going to run DIAGs on the beast and work out some other problems. It's been a fun project so far. This AT is in a rack-mount case which is even more overkill than the original AT case. The funny thing is that somebody ditched the presumably industrial rack-mount coverings and built a plexiglass cover for the case that gives you see-through views of the top, front, and two sides. Horrible for inteference, but really fun to look at. Besides the 5154 EGA display I have an original monochrome display, but it doesn't work at all. I'm not sure that it is even getting power. I have the Sams schematics for it, so when I get some free time I'll open it and start looking for simple things like blown fuses. I found this machine where I work and it hasn't come home yet, and may never due to work policies. So whatever I get it to do is a bonus. It'll complement the PCjr I keep in the office nicely. From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Feb 1 09:36:00 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 09:36:00 -0600 Subject: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? In-Reply-To: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060201093446.02424140@mail.ubanproductions.com> Brad, I believe that you can find the schematics of the M105 and M7821 in the Peripherals Handbook, which I believe is scanned on bitsavers. --tom At 04:48 PM 1/31/2006 -0500, you wrote: >Turns out the RX02 emulator needs an M105 and M7821 single height UNIBUS >card to work. > >Anyone have an extra M105 and M7821? > >I've never seen one of these, but that doesn't mean much. Are they common? > >Also, does any one have Schematics for the M105 and M7821? I looked on >bitsavers and did not find anything. > >-brad From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 09:42:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 07:42:00 -0800 Subject: Me vs NiCad battery damage on PC boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602010742000290.4CFBDFF7@10.0.0.252> On 2/1/2006 at 9:34 AM Tim Shoppa wrote: >But is there some magic chemical or mechanical means that will render >the existing cruddy PC board solderable so I can replace these flaky >sockets? If you can't get solder to adhere to a copper trace using a rosin flux, there aren't many reasons--the copper isn't getting clean enough or your iron isn't tinned well. After you get the big hunks of crud removed, I'd start with a couple drops of a mild soap in some distilled water and a toothbrush, then graduate to wood alcohol (methanol). The methanol will help to dry things out as it evaporates. For the really tough spots, don't overlook using a slightly-abrasive (pink) pencil eraser to clean up. If that got nowhere, I'd be tempted to try a copper-bristle brush on a dremel tool with a very light touch to knock the crud off. To repair broken traces, there are pens available that dispense a conductive silver coating. Cheers, Chuck From jcwren at jcwren.com Wed Feb 1 10:45:11 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 11:45:11 -0500 Subject: Machine tool 24 pin sockets, 0.4" wide available Message-ID: <43E0E597.40102@jcwren.com> MPJA is having a good deal on 24 pin 0.4" wide machine tool pin sockets. These are good for certain vintage memories. http://www.mpja.com/allpictspl.asp?d=5&r=Y134908&p=16224+ic From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Feb 1 10:53:59 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 11:53:59 -0500 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602011153.59034.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 31 January 2006 04:20 pm, Richard wrote: > In article <200601311445.58666.rtellason at blazenet.net>, > > "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > > On Tuesday 31 January 2006 01:55 pm, Richard wrote: > > > I do have one monitor. I haven't tried to power it up, but written on > > > the case is the word "DIM", presumably identifying a failure in the > > > monitor somewhere. I've never repaired monitors, so I'm not sure what > > > a dim image is suppose to indicate. Failing HV drive circuitry? > > > > Power supply problems more likely than anything else. Maybe caused by > > weak capacitors, as those will age more than any other part. Other > > failure modes will all (mostly) cause an outright failure. > > Other than checking for obvious shorts and opens, what's a good way to > check a (safely discharged) capacitor for such problems? Depends on where it is, but a scope would probably be the best tool for that particular job... If it's a bypass cap or power supply filter, you should NOT see any signal there! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From allain at panix.com Wed Feb 1 11:10:37 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:10:37 -0500 Subject: SIMMS and other memory dongles References: Message-ID: <009b01c62752$6c44fd60$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Richard asked: > Is there an easy way to spot the size of the SIMM? I don't have chip > numbers memorized. Now there's a question I'd like to see answered with a website. Keeping the SIMM (and other boards) "closed coded" so that only inner circle suppliers can deal with them intelligently seemed to be the motivation. Chip numbers are probably the only sure way out, many of us could use a www table for that. John A. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 11:19:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 09:19:51 -0800 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <1138806660.43e0cf849be6b@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <1138748199.43dfeb272e0a8@webmail.secure-wi.com> <43E01306.30004@brutman.com> <200601312133150520.4ACE8FAA@10.0.0.252> <1138806660.43e0cf849be6b@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <200602010919510439.4D557645@10.0.0.252> On 2/1/2006 at 7:11 AM mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: >I like the BIOS ROM extension better myself, but what I grabbed is what I >grabbed ... It occurred to me last night that I had not changed the CMOS >settings for the drive, so the nice 600+MB IDE drive that I stuck in there >was being treated like the old full-height monster that it replaced. > >Today's project will be to put a Promise EIDE MAX in a spare slot - that >will give it the BIOS extension that it needs to recognize larger drives. I'm >also going to run DIAGs on the beast and work out some other problems. I remember well getting my first 1224 cylinder MFM drive (Miniscribe, I think) to go with my Faraday ATease 286 mobo and realizing that the BIOS wouldn't get me past the 1024 cylinder mark, leaving almost 20% of the drive unusable. This was in the bad old MS-DOS days, so I eventually just wrote a DOS device driver that gave me a partition with the remaining capacity. With a WD-1006 RLL card, I was looking at a whopping 250 MB! Seems kind of strange now that one can buy little bitty flash cartridges with a gig or more on them that are smaller than the power connector on the drive. Remember, you can still run OS/2 1.x on that AT box. I think a lot of very serviceable older hardware goes into the landfill because of performance issues that aren't necessarily related to preocessor speed. Often, just increasing the memory and adding a faster (ATA6) hard disk controller can make a huge difference on older Pentium I and II machines. And it's these older machines that still have a few ISA slots for older peripherals. I've just finished setting up a 200 MHz PII box this way with Win98, RH9 and Win2K. Performance for most mundame programmer-type tasks is very adequate. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 1 11:48:35 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 10:48:35 -0700 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 01 Feb 2006 09:19:51 -0800. <200602010919510439.4D557645@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200602010919510439.4D557645 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I think a lot of very serviceable older hardware goes into the landfill > because of performance issues that aren't necessarily related to preocessor > speed. Often, just increasing the memory and adding a faster (ATA6) hard > disk controller can make a huge difference on older Pentium I and II > machines. And it's these older machines that still have a few ISA slots > for older peripherals. I've just finished setting up a 200 MHz PII box > this way with Win98, RH9 and Win2K. Performance for most mundame > programmer-type tasks is very adequate. I think I found a good home for the remaining Pentium/Pentium II machines they unloaded here at work. Yay! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 1 12:00:20 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 11:00:20 -0700 Subject: SIMMS and other memory dongles In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 01 Feb 2006 12:10:37 -0500. <009b01c62752$6c44fd60$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: In article <009b01c62752$6c44fd60$5f25fea9 at ibm23xhr06>, "John Allain" writes: > Chip numbers are probably the only sure way out, many of us could use > a www table for that. Probably the best way to collect that information is to edit this page on wikipedia: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 12:16:40 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 18:16:40 +0000 Subject: Machine tool 24 pin sockets, 0.4" wide available In-Reply-To: <43E0E597.40102@jcwren.com> References: <43E0E597.40102@jcwren.com> Message-ID: On 2/1/06, J.C. Wren wrote: > MPJA is having a good deal on 24 pin 0.4" wide machine tool pin > sockets. These are good for certain vintage memories. > > http://www.mpja.com/allpictspl.asp?d=5&r=Y134908&p=16224+ic Handy for reusing 256Kx8 cache SRAMs as well as building projects with GAL 22V10s. $0.10 is a great price. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 12:18:18 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 18:18:18 +0000 Subject: Just won HP 4952A / HP 18179A protocol analyzer/serial adapter In-Reply-To: <002601c626c0$3e897550$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <002601c626c0$3e897550$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: On 1/31/06, Richard A. Cini wrote: > All: > > I just won this protocol analyzer (with the 002 option which is > the extended memory option) on eBay. Does anyone have a PDF of the manual > and disk images (or pointers thereto)? Thanks!! I have one of these at home and am also looking for disk images - especially the terminal emulator program. I've used older ones with tape cassettes, and I can say that if you want to scope serial comms, sync or async, these are great devices to have around. -ethan From jcwren at jcwren.com Wed Feb 1 12:26:57 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 13:26:57 -0500 Subject: Machine tool 24 pin sockets, 0.4" wide available In-Reply-To: References: <43E0E597.40102@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <43E0FD71.1000907@jcwren.com> You're doing unnatural things to those pins to get them to fit in a .4" socket. At least, all my 22V10s are 0.3" wide... --jc Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 2/1/06, J.C. Wren wrote: > >> MPJA is having a good deal on 24 pin 0.4" wide machine tool pin >> sockets. These are good for certain vintage memories. >> >> http://www.mpja.com/allpictspl.asp?d=5&r=Y134908&p=16224+ic >> > > Handy for reusing 256Kx8 cache SRAMs as well as building projects with > GAL 22V10s. > > $0.10 is a great price. > > -ethan > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 12:30:35 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 18:30:35 +0000 Subject: RX02 emulator? In-Reply-To: References: <43DFB933.5020303@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On 1/31/06, Richard wrote: > So with the T-bus wire wrap board, does it already handle the bus > tranceiver stuff? I've been talking off list about techniques for > handling the bus requirements of Q-bus. It looks like you still have > to handle this yourself with a wirewrap board; I'm assuming chips in > the bottom row of > are the bus transceivers? It looks like it to me - from the schematic, he's using old National chips (8838, etc)... not a bad trick for a one-off, but not so easy to manage for, say, an new community design. Personally, I collect all of the NS 8xxx chips I come across (a handful per year), more to repair old boards than anything else, but someday, if an interesting design crossed my path, I'd have parts to build one. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 12:32:08 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 18:32:08 +0000 Subject: Machine tool 24 pin sockets, 0.4" wide available In-Reply-To: <43E0FD71.1000907@jcwren.com> References: <43E0E597.40102@jcwren.com> <43E0FD71.1000907@jcwren.com> Message-ID: On 2/1/06, J.C. Wren wrote: > You're doing unnatural things to those pins to get them to fit in a .4" > socket. At least, all my 22V10s are 0.3" wide... > > --jc > >> http://www.mpja.com/allpictspl.asp?d=5&r=Y134908&p=16224+ic Hmm... I wonder what they are selling, then... I saw the picture and thought 0.3", despite the text (and the original message saying 0.4"). -ethan From henk.gooijen at oce.com Wed Feb 1 12:46:13 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 19:46:13 +0100 Subject: RX02 emulator Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2303@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi Doc, I catched this topic in my spam filter, don't know how it got there ... I have built the prototype for Pete and tested it in my 11/34A. In 3 words: it works great! You install the board in an empty UNIBUS slot, position C-D. Further, you need a M105 in position E, and a M7821 in position F, IIRC, but Pete's website explains it all. See http://www.pdp-11.nl/rx11emul.jpg for the RX11 emulator in action, or search the Classiccmp archive, two weeks ago or so ... BTW, if your system has the (real) RX11 (for RX01) or RX211 (for RX02) installed, you must either remove that module, or configure it at on other CSR. Also, Pete's RX11 board does *not* short-circuit NPR (CA1-CB1), so check the backplane, or (what I did) solder a short on Pete's board. Remember the NPG of the RX211! I asked Pete if he is willing to develop a PCB for the RXV11 (qbus) too, and he said that as he has the board"fingers", that would be do-able. So, if enough people ask for the RXV11 ... I'd like one! - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 1 12:51:45 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 11:51:45 -0700 Subject: RX02 emulator? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 01 Feb 2006 18:30:35 +0000. Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > On 1/31/06, Richard wrote: > > [...] I'm assuming chips in > > the bottom row of > > are the bus transceivers? > > It looks like it to me - from the schematic, he's using old National > chips (8838, etc)... not a bad trick for a one-off, but not so easy to > manage for, say, an new community design. Personally, I collect all > of the NS 8xxx chips I come across (a handful per year), more to > repair old boards than anything else, but someday, if an interesting > design crossed my path, I'd have parts to build one. A batch of these was just offered on ebay; I purchased 5 of the DS8641N and 10 of the DS8640N. He still had 10 more of the DS8640N in his auction. I want to make some sort of emulated drive interface for my 11/03 so that I don't have to put wear and tear on the RL01 drives in order to play with it :-). Plus it would give me access to much larger storage capacity by using some sort of emulator or whatnot. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jcwren at jcwren.com Wed Feb 1 12:53:20 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 13:53:20 -0500 Subject: Machine tool 24 pin sockets, 0.4" wide available In-Reply-To: References: <43E0E597.40102@jcwren.com> <43E0FD71.1000907@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <43E103A0.5030404@jcwren.com> No, definitely .4". 2 pins will fit equally spaced between the two rows, and if you mentally swing 4 pins 90 degrees, you can visualize the width. --jc Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 2/1/06, J.C. Wren wrote: > >> You're doing unnatural things to those pins to get them to fit in a .4" >> socket. At least, all my 22V10s are 0.3" wide... >> >> --jc From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Feb 1 13:56:05 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 13:56:05 Subject: Me vs NiCad battery damage on PC boards In-Reply-To: <200602010742000290.4CFBDFF7@10.0.0.252> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060201135605.123f026a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> >On 2/1/2006 at 9:34 AM Tim Shoppa wrote: > >>But is there some magic chemical or mechanical means that will render >>the existing cruddy PC board solderable so I can replace these flaky >>sockets? I've seen the stuff you're talking about. Even after you clean off the blue-green corrision the copper is black and solder won't stick to it. I expect the black is due to copper oxide. You need to remove it by treating it with some kind of acid that will form a water soluable salt with copper. I expect dilute sulfuric acid may be the best. That's what they use to clean copper circuit boards prior to assembly as well as copper items prior to electroplating, etc. I'm sure you're aware of the dangers of sulfuric acid and how much damage it can do to the board and components so be careful! Joe From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 1 12:58:47 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 11:58:47 -0700 Subject: RX02 emulator In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 01 Feb 2006 19:46:13 +0100. <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2303@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: In article <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2303 at OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net>, "Gooijen, Henk" writes: > I asked Pete if he is willing to develop a PCB for the RXV11 (qbus) > too, and he said that as he has the board"fingers", that would be > do-able. So, if enough people ask for the RXV11 ... I'd like one! Yeah! I'd like something Q-bussable :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 1 12:56:15 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 12:56:15 -0600 Subject: OT: seeking: MPG3102AT (in UK) In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.0.20060131170113.054c2c30@irrelevant.com> References: <7.0.0.16.0.20060131170113.054c2c30@irrelevant.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060201125411.04f19a60@mail> Did you check eBay? I see someone selling just the logic boards for $20. I'm sure they'd ship to the UK. Others are selling drives for $9-90. http://store.yahoo.com/hd4less/fuj10uathard4.html - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 13:11:27 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 19:11:27 +0000 Subject: TU-58 connection to 11/03? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/31/06, Richard wrote: > I'll have to check the modules on my machine, but if I recall > correctly it has the console module that has 1 serial port and the > asynchronous SLU module for the printer. Is there another serial port > lurking on the console module that I don't know about? No... they are obvious... sounds like you have a KDF-11B, if I remember the numbers correctly. I was talking about a DLJ11-V - a 4-port dual-height card that was common in 11/03s and dual-height 11/23 systems (KDF-11A)... one port was strapped to be the console, and the other three had "standard" addresses that meant that in a typical system, you only had to worry about baud rate and parity jumpers to put the card to full use. In the case of your CPU card, you might or might not have to re-strap the CSR and vector of the secondary port to make it useful to talk to a TU-58 or TU-58 emulator. Perusal of the handbooks will clarify what's needed (I've never done it, but it shouldn't be too hard). -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Feb 1 13:21:23 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 14:21:23 -0500 Subject: RX02 emulator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602011421.24005.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 01 February 2006 13:51, Richard wrote: > A batch of these was just offered on ebay; I purchased 5 of the > DS8641N and 10 of the DS8640N. He still had 10 more of the DS8640N > in his auction. I want to make some sort of emulated drive interface > for my 11/03 so that I don't have to put wear and tear on the RL01 > drives in order to play with it :-). Plus it would give me access to > much larger storage capacity by using some sort of emulator or > whatnot. I'd suggest that you first look for an RQDX3; they usually show up fairly cheaply - they support ST506 hard drives, and RX50 and RX33 floppy drives. You can get a Teac FD-55GFR, rejumper it to act like an RX33, and an ST225/238R (same as a DEC RD31), and have a 1.2MB floppy drive and a 25MB HDD hanging off of your box pretty cheaply. On an 11/03, the only "tough" parts will be building the distribution board that converts the cable from the RQDX3 to the drives, and getting a boot PROM for MSCP boot (though you *can* use ODT to boot the machine, it's just a bit painful, but not as painful as toggling in the bootstrap :). Actually, an RX33 is nearly 1/4 the (MB) size of an RL01, and probably close to the same speed. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 1 13:24:52 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 12:24:52 -0700 Subject: TU-58 connection to 11/03? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 01 Feb 2006 19:11:27 +0000. Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > I was talking about a DLJ11-V - a 4-port dual-height card that was > common in 11/03s and dual-height 11/23 systems (KDF-11A)... one port > was strapped to be the console, and the other three had "standard" > addresses that meant that in a typical system, you only had to worry > about baud rate and parity jumpers to put the card to full use. IIRC, I have the console port on one card and a printer port on a second card. I'll have to make a list of the module numbers and update my collection web page so I can remember this stuff without access to the HW ;-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Feb 1 13:40:19 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 11:40:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Machine tool 24 pin sockets, 0.4" wide available Message-ID: <200602011940.LAA32475@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi Still, at .10 a bandsaw makes a universal socket for projects. Dwight >From: "J.C. Wren" > >No, definitely .4". 2 pins will fit equally spaced between the two >rows, and if you mentally swing 4 pins 90 degrees, you can visualize the >width. > > --jc > >Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On 2/1/06, J.C. Wren wrote: >> >>> You're doing unnatural things to those pins to get them to fit in a .4" >>> socket. At least, all my 22V10s are 0.3" wide... >>> >>> --jc From allain at panix.com Wed Feb 1 14:10:40 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 15:10:40 -0500 Subject: ISA bus throughput References: Message-ID: <014501c6276b$993c7d20$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> >> I think a lot of very serviceable older hardware goes into the landfill >> ... > I think I found a good home ... Find a charity to donate your old Pentium to: http://www.cristina.org/ John A. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 14:13:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 12:13:21 -0800 Subject: Machine tool 24 pin sockets, 0.4" wide available In-Reply-To: <43E0FD71.1000907@jcwren.com> References: <43E0E597.40102@jcwren.com> <43E0FD71.1000907@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <200602011213210589.4DF44DB3@10.0.0.252> On 2/1/2006 at 1:26 PM J.C. Wren wrote: >You're doing unnatural things to those pins to get them to fit in a .4" >socket. At least, all my 22V10s are 0.3" wide... Are these the mid-size 24 pin DIPS, like that used on the old TI 2107 DRAMs? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 14:14:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 12:14:01 -0800 Subject: Machine tool 24 pin sockets, 0.4" wide available In-Reply-To: <43E0FD71.1000907@jcwren.com> References: <43E0E597.40102@jcwren.com> <43E0FD71.1000907@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <200602011214010808.4DF4EACD@10.0.0.252> On 2/1/2006 at 1:26 PM J.C. Wren wrote: >You're doing unnatural things to those pins to get them to fit in a .4" >socket. At least, all my 22V10s are 0.3" wide... At 0.10 the each, you can afford to slice and dice these things. Cheers, Chuck From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Feb 1 14:18:15 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:18:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Me vs NiCad battery damage on PC boards Message-ID: <200602012018.MAA01144@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi Normally the PC board will have a thin layer of nickel over the copper before the solder. This also produces a blue-ish green oxide. The dark brown to black is the copper oxides and salts. It can be removed with acid and/or mechanical rubbing. If using any acid that does not evaporate, it needs to be neutralized. If you can't find something to use, two part radiator cleaner should do the job. They normally use oxalic acid so handle as a toxic substance and use gloves and face shield. I've not tried this but it should work. You may need to heat the bath. One thing to consider. If it is a location the will see high temperatures ( on the order of 100C ) during operation, a copper to solder joint will fail with high resistance. This is one of the reasons they put on the nickel layer(see note). For most locations, the temperature thing is not an issue but near regulators and other power devices, you'll need to restore the nickel layer. Note: The nickel layer also simplifies the PC processing. Dwight >From: "Joe R." > > >>On 2/1/2006 at 9:34 AM Tim Shoppa wrote: >> >>>But is there some magic chemical or mechanical means that will render >>>the existing cruddy PC board solderable so I can replace these flaky >>>sockets? > > I've seen the stuff you're talking about. Even after you clean off the >blue-green corrision the copper is black and solder won't stick to it. I >expect the black is due to copper oxide. You need to remove it by treating >it with some kind of acid that will form a water soluable salt with copper. >I expect dilute sulfuric acid may be the best. That's what they use to >clean copper circuit boards prior to assembly as well as copper items >prior to electroplating, etc. I'm sure you're aware of the dangers of >sulfuric acid and how much damage it can do to the board and components so >be careful! > > Joe From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 14:22:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 12:22:15 -0800 Subject: Me vs NiCad battery damage on PC boards In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060201135605.123f026a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060201135605.123f026a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200602011222150363.4DFC72B1@10.0.0.252> On 2/1/2006 at 1:56 PM Joe R. wrote: > I've seen the stuff you're talking about. Even after you clean off the >blue-green corrision the copper is black and solder won't stick to it. I >expect the black is due to copper oxide. You need to remove it by treating >it with some kind of acid that will form a water soluable salt with copper. >I expect dilute sulfuric acid may be the best. That's what they use to >clean copper circuit boards prior to assembly as well as copper items >prior to electroplating, etc. The brass instrument folks use muriatic (hydrochloric) acid or sulfamic acid for cleaning. Still as dangerous as sulfuric when it comes to getting it lodged in nooks and crannies (and if this is an old board, it can even get wicked under traces), but easier to get because they're not on the list of reagents that explosive or drug makers use. Another chemical that may work is thiourea. If you decide to try sulfuric acid (or any other concentrated acid), remember, when diluting: "Do what you oughter; Pour acid into water" But I'd still stick with mechanical and chemically neutral methods if I were you. Cheers, Chuck From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 1 14:25:57 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 12:25:57 -0800 Subject: Me vs NiCad battery damage on PC boards Message-ID: <43E11955.9420CC00@rain.org> When cleaning PC Boards that have had battery leakage, I always use Muriatic Acid (about 33% Hydrochloric Acid) also known as pool acid for adjusting pool pH. When I still owned the Printed Circuit shop, I would use something called Solder Brite to remove the oxidation on the boards after etching and prior to reflow. If you have a PC shop close by, you might stop by and see if they would give you a couple of ounces to try. IIRC, Solder Brite was basically Muriatic acid with some additives. BTW, when I am cleaning up the crud on PC boards, I only use a couple of *drops* of Muriatic acid and I would guess that Solder Brite could be used the same way. Once it stops foaming, I am done :). > From: "Tim Shoppa" > But is there some magic chemical or mechanical means that will render > the existing cruddy PC board solderable so I can replace these flaky > sockets? > > Tim. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 14:27:18 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 15:27:18 -0500 Subject: Me vs NiCad battery damage on PC boards In-Reply-To: <200602011222150363.4DFC72B1@10.0.0.252> References: <3.0.6.16.20060201135605.123f026a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200602011222150363.4DFC72B1@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43E119A6.4060505@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2/1/2006 at 1:56 PM Joe R. wrote: > > >> I've seen the stuff you're talking about. Even after you clean off the >>blue-green corrision the copper is black and solder won't stick to it. I >>expect the black is due to copper oxide. You need to remove it by treating >>it with some kind of acid that will form a water soluable salt with > > copper. > >>I expect dilute sulfuric acid may be the best. That's what they use to >>clean copper circuit boards prior to assembly as well as copper items >>prior to electroplating, etc. > > > The brass instrument folks use muriatic (hydrochloric) acid or sulfamic > acid for cleaning. Still as dangerous as sulfuric when it comes to getting > it lodged in nooks and crannies (and if this is an old board, it can even > get wicked under traces), but easier to get because they're not on the list > of reagents that explosive or drug makers use. Another chemical that may > work is thiourea. Does one need to use a strong acid for this cleaning? Can one use a concentrated weak acid instead? Peace... Sridhar From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Feb 1 14:31:55 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:31:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Me vs NiCad battery damage on PC boards Message-ID: <200602012031.MAA01668@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi As a note, Muriatic acid is hydrochloric acid. Dwight >From: "Marvin Johnston" > > >When cleaning PC Boards that have had battery leakage, I always use >Muriatic Acid (about 33% Hydrochloric Acid) also known as pool acid for >adjusting pool pH. When I still owned the Printed Circuit shop, I would >use something called Solder Brite to remove the oxidation on the boards >after etching and prior to reflow. If you have a PC shop close by, you >might stop by and see if they would give you a couple of ounces to try. >IIRC, Solder Brite was basically Muriatic acid with some additives. > >BTW, when I am cleaning up the crud on PC boards, I only use a couple of >*drops* of Muriatic acid and I would guess that Solder Brite could be >used the same way. Once it stops foaming, I am done :). > >> From: "Tim Shoppa" > >> But is there some magic chemical or mechanical means that will render >> the existing cruddy PC board solderable so I can replace these flaky >> sockets? >> >> Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 14:58:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 12:58:16 -0800 Subject: Me vs NiCad battery damage on PC boards In-Reply-To: <43E119A6.4060505@gmail.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060201135605.123f026a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200602011222150363.4DFC72B1@10.0.0.252> <43E119A6.4060505@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200602011258160715.4E1D6D39@10.0.0.252> On 2/1/2006 at 3:27 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Does one need to use a strong acid for this cleaning? Can one use a >concentrated weak acid instead? I'd much rather use a dilute strong acid (such as hydrochloric or phosphoric) than a concentrated weak acid, such as acetic. A chem flush of a brass instrument typically uses hydrchloric diluted about 50:1. Gets the calcium deposits and dissolves the oxide but doesn't etch the metal too much. I've tried cleaning with acetic acid, but it's much slower. As mentioned, sulfamic is another candidate--found in stuff like CLR (calcium lime rust) remover and Tarn-X silver cleaner (along with thiourea)--and may be worth a try if you're looking for a supermarket solution. Cheers, Chuck From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Feb 1 17:34:11 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 17:34:11 Subject: Motorola "DEVL"? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060201173411.2d872cd4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Anybody know exactly what "DEVL" means on this 68332 CPU? . From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 16:34:14 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 17:34:14 -0500 Subject: Me vs NiCad battery damage on PC boards In-Reply-To: <200602011258160715.4E1D6D39@10.0.0.252> References: <3.0.6.16.20060201135605.123f026a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200602011222150363.4DFC72B1@10.0.0.252> <43E119A6.4060505@gmail.com> <200602011258160715.4E1D6D39@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43E13766.8000408@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>Does one need to use a strong acid for this cleaning? Can one use a >>concentrated weak acid instead? > > > I'd much rather use a dilute strong acid (such as hydrochloric or > phosphoric) than a concentrated weak acid, such as acetic. A chem flush of > a brass instrument typically uses hydrchloric diluted about 50:1. Gets the > calcium deposits and dissolves the oxide but doesn't etch the metal too > much. I've tried cleaning with acetic acid, but it's much slower. > > As mentioned, sulfamic is another candidate--found in stuff like CLR > (calcium lime rust) remover and Tarn-X silver cleaner (along with > thiourea)--and may be worth a try if you're looking for a supermarket > solution. What about tetramethylammonium hydroxide? Peace... Sridhar From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Feb 1 16:39:28 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 14:39:28 -0800 Subject: Motorola "DEVL"? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060201173411.2d872cd4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060201173411.2d872cd4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43E138A0.5050700@msm.umr.edu> Joe R. wrote: > Anybody know exactly what "DEVL" means on this 68332 CPU? >. > > > > Perhaps it is a sample 68332 in an ICE probe? Isn't 93 early for 68332's? We used them in our early test gear here, but I later found them in the low profile mac's, specifically in the LC-III's. Jim From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Feb 1 17:42:36 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 17:42:36 Subject: FA: NEC PC-8300, Tek curve tracer adapters, Multibus extender card Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060201174236.4447b610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Cleaning out some of the misc stuff. See Joe From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 17:17:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 15:17:45 -0800 Subject: Me vs NiCad battery damage on PC boards In-Reply-To: <43E13766.8000408@gmail.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060201135605.123f026a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200602011222150363.4DFC72B1@10.0.0.252> <43E119A6.4060505@gmail.com> <200602011258160715.4E1D6D39@10.0.0.252> <43E13766.8000408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200602011517450659.4E9D1F6E@10.0.0.252> On 2/1/2006 at 5:34 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >What about tetramethylammonium hydroxide? TMAH? Nasty stuff--and it's a strong base too, not an acid. I know that it's used to strip PCB resist, but that's not what we're after here. I can't think of any particular advantage it may have to the problem at hand other than being corrosive, toxic and stinky, :) Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 17:23:18 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 18:23:18 -0500 Subject: Me vs NiCad battery damage on PC boards In-Reply-To: <200602011517450659.4E9D1F6E@10.0.0.252> References: <3.0.6.16.20060201135605.123f026a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200602011222150363.4DFC72B1@10.0.0.252> <43E119A6.4060505@gmail.com> <200602011258160715.4E1D6D39@10.0.0.252> <43E13766.8000408@gmail.com> <200602011517450659.4E9D1F6E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43E142E6.1060006@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2/1/2006 at 5:34 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > >>What about tetramethylammonium hydroxide? > > > TMAH? Nasty stuff--and it's a strong base too, not an acid. I know that > it's used to strip PCB resist, but that's not what we're after here. I > can't think of any particular advantage it may have to the problem at hand > other than being corrosive, toxic and stinky, > > :) It's not particularly toxic or corrosive. It stings a bit on your hands, but not all that much. It removes oxidation very easily too, and without much concentration. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 17:56:41 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 15:56:41 -0800 Subject: Me vs NiCad battery damage on PC boards In-Reply-To: <43E142E6.1060006@gmail.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060201135605.123f026a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200602011222150363.4DFC72B1@10.0.0.252> <43E119A6.4060505@gmail.com> <200602011258160715.4E1D6D39@10.0.0.252> <43E13766.8000408@gmail.com> <200602011517450659.4E9D1F6E@10.0.0.252> <43E142E6.1060006@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200602011556410458.4EC0C35F@10.0.0.252> On 2/1/2006 at 6:23 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >It's not particularly toxic or corrosive. It stings a bit on your >hands, but not all that much. It removes oxidation very easily too, and >without much concentration. That last word may be the key. The MSDS reads "nasty": http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/t1814.htm From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 18:04:52 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 19:04:52 -0500 Subject: Me vs NiCad battery damage on PC boards In-Reply-To: <200602011556410458.4EC0C35F@10.0.0.252> References: <3.0.6.16.20060201135605.123f026a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200602011222150363.4DFC72B1@10.0.0.252> <43E119A6.4060505@gmail.com> <200602011258160715.4E1D6D39@10.0.0.252> <43E13766.8000408@gmail.com> <200602011517450659.4E9D1F6E@10.0.0.252> <43E142E6.1060006@gmail.com> <200602011556410458.4EC0C35F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43E14CA4.8000302@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2/1/2006 at 6:23 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > >>It's not particularly toxic or corrosive. It stings a bit on your >>hands, but not all that much. It removes oxidation very easily too, and >>without much concentration. > > > That last word may be the key. The MSDS reads "nasty": > > http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/t1814.htm I used to work in an environment where it was used in large quantities on a daily basis. I can vouch that it isn't nearly as nasty as that MSDS says. You're fine as long as you aren't bathing in it, getting into your eyes, drinking it, etc. Peace... Sridhar From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 1 18:08:57 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 16:08:57 -0800 Subject: Me vs NiCad battery damage on PC boards Message-ID: <43E14D99.2677CDF7@rain.org> A normal PC board DOES NOT have a nickel plate under the tin/lead. I suspect you are thinking about PC boards that have been gold plated, and yes, those do have a nickel underplate. > > From: "Dwight Elvey" > > Normally the PC board will have a thin layer of > nickel over the copper before the solder. This also > produces a blue-ish green oxide. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 1 19:02:19 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 01:02:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Machine tool 24 pin sockets, 0.4" wide available In-Reply-To: <43E0E597.40102@jcwren.com> from "J.C. Wren" at Feb 1, 6 11:45:11 am Message-ID: > > MPJA is having a good deal on 24 pin 0.4" wide machine tool pin > sockets. These are good for certain vintage memories. Are they? Most 0.4" wide ICs are 22 pin (OK, ignore 2 pins at one end of the socket). Most 24 pin ICs are 0.6" (old) or 0.3" (new). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 1 18:36:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 00:36:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <200601311656200601.49D10C2C@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 31, 6 04:56:20 pm Message-ID: > > On 1/31/2006 at 11:50 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >Those were not common over here, possibly because 99.9% of valved > >monochrome TVs had a series chain of heaters which included the CRT. > > That setup didn't manifest itself here until the 1960's. All 1950's sets > had very large (and desirable for other projects) power transformers. I A few very early UK TVs had mains transformers, and even produced the EHT (about 7kV) from that. That supply could source considerable current and was lethal. A few later TVs had mains tranformers, but were often live-chassis too. The mains tranformer might be for the heaters only, or might be an autotransformer, or something like that. Be careful if working on one of these. Most B&W TVs had series string heaters (the P-series 300mA valves). There were oddities with some 100mA nand 200mA strings in them them, but you're not likely to find one of those. The HT (B+) line came from half-wave rectifying the mains, either using a valve (U291, PY32, PY82, etc), or a contact-cooled selenium rectifier, or a silicon diode depending on the age of the set. The EHT came from the flyback transformer, of course. Most colour TVs had a mains transoformer, if only for the CRT heater. But again you might find a series string of heaters (possibly fed from a tap on the transformer), and the HT line would come directly from the mains. Of course modern TVs have an SMPSU and an isolated chassis, if only to simplify the circuitry for the SCART connector (this has composite video I/O, RGB in, audio I/O on it, isolating all those signals would be a lot more work than an isolated SMPSU). > imagine that today the glass audio folks would really love to get some of > those old hunks of iron. Secondary winding was typically something like > 450-0-450v rms, with several separate heater windings; usually 5v for the > rectifier (usually a 5U4) and 6.3v for most of the other bits and maybe an > extra winding for the horizontal output heater. It wasn't that uncommon In UK sets, the horizontal output valve (line output valve, something like a 30P4, PL36, PL81, PL504 depending on the age of the set) and the booster diode (damper to you, soemthing like a U191 or PY800) were in the normal series string. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 1 19:06:12 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 01:06:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Machine tool 24 pin sockets, 0.4" wide available In-Reply-To: <43E103A0.5030404@jcwren.com> from "J.C. Wren" at Feb 1, 6 01:53:20 pm Message-ID: > > No, definitely .4". 2 pins will fit equally spaced between the two > rows, and if you mentally swing 4 pins 90 degrees, you can visualize the > width. Hang on, if you get 2 pins between the 2 rows, that's 0.3" spacing : o o o o | | | | 4 pins, 3 gaps, each gap is 0.1", so 0.3" total. I've soldered enough 0.3" IC sockets onto stripboard to know you get 2 columns of holes between the columns of pins, too... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 1 18:40:17 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 00:40:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <200602010115.RAA07558@ca2h0430.amd.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Jan 31, 6 05:15:09 pm Message-ID: > >The method generally used on TV tubes of the period (and I don't see why > >monitor tubes would be any different) was something like : > > > >1) Over-run the heater. Typically a 6.3V heater would be run at 8V or 10V > > > >2) Apply a fairly high (200V-ish) +ve voltage the control grid (wrt the > >cathode), all other electrodes floating (no EHT applied either). > > Hi > I've had better luck with 0 volts. If the tube has not been used > for a long time, it will be a little gassy. This tends to boil Interesting... I've never seen this suggested anywhere, but most of the designs for boosters assume you'll be trying to improve a CRT that's been in use quite recently (e.g. a TV you've been watching), so presumably the gas problem is no so serious. > off the cathode along with the other stuff. When you have the voltage, > the electrons will hit the gass atoms and ionize them. These are > then slammed back into the cathode. One article I read stated > that the first stage should be done with 0 volts and then switch > to a + volts on the grid(s)+anode for the last part. > I've not tried this myself but the method makes sense. In the > first part, the getter has time to catch the outgassing. The > last part helps to freshen the surface. > I know that there are many articles that state to put the voltage > on from the beginning. I've also read in a only a couple of > articles that the outgassing from the initial stages can poison > the cathode enough to make the process useless. I recover > many old vacuum tubes for my old battery radios. I've had > good enough experience with the 0 volts and enough bad > experience with the voltage on the grid/plate that I use > the 0 volt. Those valves are likely to be directly heated, right? I wonder if that would make a difference. AFAIK all TV and monitor CRTs are indirectly heated (well, I think there was a Japanese colour CRT that was directly heated, but I doubt you'll find one of those. Yes it did have 6 heater pins). -tony From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 1 19:17:00 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 19:17:00 -0600 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <200602010919510439.4D557645@10.0.0.252> References: <1138748199.43dfeb272e0a8@webmail.secure-wi.com> <43E01306.30004@brutman.com> <200601312133150520.4ACE8FAA@10.0.0.252> <1138806660.43e0cf849be6b@webmail.secure-wi.com> <200602010919510439.4D557645@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43E15D8C.8080901@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I think a lot of very serviceable older hardware goes into the landfill > because of performance issues that aren't necessarily related to preocessor > speed. Often, just increasing the memory and adding a faster (ATA6) hard > disk controller can make a huge difference on older Pentium I and II > machines. And it's these older machines that still have a few ISA slots > for older peripherals. I've just finished setting up a 200 MHz PII box > this way with Win98, RH9 and Win2K. Performance for most mundame > programmer-type tasks is very adequate. Seconded. Most Pentium Pro and later machines will take 256MB of RAM, which greatly increases what they can run (although faster I/O helps too). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 1 19:18:32 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 19:18:32 -0600 Subject: (Slightly OT) Rare item I passed up: mCGA In-Reply-To: <43E0CA4E.9070608@gmail.com> References: <200602010738.k117cilJ088827@dewey.classiccmp.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20060201090941.028dbec0@mail.degnanco.net> <26c11a640602010641h5f67e88g@mail.gmail.com> <43E0CA4E.9070608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43E15DE8.3050608@oldskool.org> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I believe the mCGA was the monochrome "CGA". It's capable of graphics, > unlike MDA. Yep, sounds a lot like my first AT&T PC 6300 monitor, which was monochrome but took CGA TTL and displayed the 16 colors as shades of green. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Feb 1 19:36:49 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 17:36:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them Message-ID: <200602020136.RAA11231@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >The method generally used on TV tubes of the period (and I don't see why >> >monitor tubes would be any different) was something like : >> > >> >1) Over-run the heater. Typically a 6.3V heater would be run at 8V or 10V >> > >> >2) Apply a fairly high (200V-ish) +ve voltage the control grid (wrt the >> >cathode), all other electrodes floating (no EHT applied either). >> >> Hi >> I've had better luck with 0 volts. If the tube has not been used >> for a long time, it will be a little gassy. This tends to boil > >Interesting... I've never seen this suggested anywhere, but most of the >designs for boosters assume you'll be trying to improve a CRT that's been >in use quite recently (e.g. a TV you've been watching), so presumably the >gas problem is no so serious. > >> off the cathode along with the other stuff. When you have the voltage, >> the electrons will hit the gass atoms and ionize them. These are >> then slammed back into the cathode. One article I read stated >> that the first stage should be done with 0 volts and then switch >> to a + volts on the grid(s)+anode for the last part. >> I've not tried this myself but the method makes sense. In the >> first part, the getter has time to catch the outgassing. The >> last part helps to freshen the surface. >> I know that there are many articles that state to put the voltage >> on from the beginning. I've also read in a only a couple of >> articles that the outgassing from the initial stages can poison >> the cathode enough to make the process useless. I recover >> many old vacuum tubes for my old battery radios. I've had >> good enough experience with the 0 volts and enough bad >> experience with the voltage on the grid/plate that I use >> the 0 volt. > >Those valves are likely to be directly heated, right? I wonder if that >would make a difference. Hi Tony Yes, most of the tubes I look at are directly heated. This might be different on how they act. There were several diffent materials use for directly heated filaments and some don't ever recover. I still try anyway. What have I got to lose. Dwight AFAIK all TV and monitor CRTs are indirectly >heated (well, I think there was a Japanese colour CRT that was directly >heated, but I doubt you'll find one of those. Yes it did have 6 heater pins). > >-tony From nerdware at ctgonline.org Wed Feb 1 21:50:19 2006 From: nerdware at ctgonline.org (Paul Braun) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 21:50:19 -0600 Subject: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery pack Message-ID: <43E1817B.1090200@ctgonline.org> Those of you in data centers that may have a dead APC lying around... Someone donated a Smart-UPS 1000 to our theatre. Dead batteries, but otherwise it's good. I ordered a set of replacement cells from a 3rd-party vendor, but when I went to pull the dead cells, one of the wire jumpers that connects between the cell terminal and the blue 60A fuse was all corroded from leaked battery goo. And I accidentally cracked the fuse while trying to extricate everything. I know I can get the fuse at the parts store, but I don't think I'm going to have much luck finding someone at APC to send me one jumper... Anybody have a dead UPS that you're about to scrap that has the fuse assembly you'd be willing to pull and part with? You can email me offlist. Thanks. -- Paul Braun Valparaiso, IN "There's a fine line between stupid, and clever." - David St. Hubbins "Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon "The Fountain of Youth is a state of mind." - The Ides of March From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 22:49:28 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 23:49:28 -0500 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <004201c6260a$0e716a00$72781941@game> References: <004201c6260a$0e716a00$72781941@game> Message-ID: On 1/30/06, Teo Zenios wrote: > I was wondering have you guys ever seen piles of computer equipment that was > dirt cheap but you didn't bother grabbing at the time only to see them > become rare and desired later on? vacuum tubes. > > > From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 22:53:29 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 23:53:29 -0500 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: References: <004201c6260a$0e716a00$72781941@game> Message-ID: <43E19049.1080307@gmail.com> 9000 VAX wrote: > On 1/30/06, Teo Zenios wrote: > >>I was wondering have you guys ever seen piles of computer equipment that was >>dirt cheap but you didn't bother grabbing at the time only to see them >>become rare and desired later on? > > > vacuum tubes. Indeed. You passed up tubes. That must've hurt. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 1 23:03:36 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 22:03:36 -0700 Subject: IBM RS/6000 Message-ID: Does anyone on the list have an IBM RS/6000 machine? They had some pretty spiffy graphics options in the early 90s. I had a coworker who did some cool fractal demo hacks for them while he worked for the local IBM office. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Feb 1 23:10:24 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 00:10:24 -0500 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602020010.24510.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 02 February 2006 00:03, Richard wrote: > Does anyone on the list have an IBM RS/6000 machine? They had some > pretty spiffy graphics options in the early 90s. I had a coworker who > did some cool fractal demo hacks for them while he worked for the > local IBM office. Yeah, I've got a few dozen, and I know some other people, like Sridhar, have some too. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From Useddec at aol.com Wed Feb 1 23:23:00 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 00:23:00 EST Subject: Tek 4014 spares kit Message-ID: I have a field service spares kit for a tek 4014. Please contact me if you have any interest. Thanks, Paul From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 23:25:18 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 00:25:18 -0500 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E197BE.6010506@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > Does anyone on the list have an IBM RS/6000 machine? They had some > pretty spiffy graphics options in the early 90s. I had a coworker who > did some cool fractal demo hacks for them while he worked for the > local IBM office. I have dozens (literally) of RS/6000's, plus I admin RS/6000's for a living. Peace... Sridhar From Useddec at aol.com Wed Feb 1 23:29:26 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 00:29:26 EST Subject: DEC field service spares kits Message-ID: <1b8.23ca1d8a.3112f2b6@aol.com> I have a large number of field service spares kits for a variety of DEC items including but not limited to tapes, disks, printers, terminals, CPU's (including, q-bus, unibus, pdp8, and VAX's) and much more. If you have any questions or interest, please contact me directly. Thanks, Paul From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 1 23:46:05 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 21:46:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: from Richard at "Feb 1, 6 10:03:36 pm" Message-ID: <200602020546.VAA23076@floodgap.com> > Does anyone on the list have an IBM RS/6000 machine? I admined them for awhile. I now have and still run the only (I think) non-IBM machine to run AIX, the Apple Network Server -- I have a 500 and a 700. They both run AIX 4. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Workers of the world, stand up! You have nothing to lose but your chairs. -- From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 23:48:19 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 00:48:19 -0500 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: <200602020546.VAA23076@floodgap.com> References: <200602020546.VAA23076@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <43E19D23.6050801@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>Does anyone on the list have an IBM RS/6000 machine? > > > I admined them for awhile. I now have and still run the only (I think) non-IBM > machine to run AIX, the Apple Network Server -- I have a 500 and a 700. > They both run AIX 4. Nope. There are a bunch of machines made by Groupe Bull that run a customized AIX. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 1 23:52:07 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 21:52:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: <43E19D23.6050801@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Feb 2, 6 00:48:19 am" Message-ID: <200602020552.VAA16200@floodgap.com> > > I admined them for awhile. I now have and still run the only (I think) > > non-IBM > > machine to run AIX, the Apple Network Server -- I have a 500 and a 700. > > They both run AIX 4. > > Nope. There are a bunch of machines made by Groupe Bull that run a > customized AIX. I thought those were rebadged RS/6000s, though (that were otherwise bog standard designs). If not, what's the difference? (For the curious, the ANSes are just funky Power Macs, distant relatives of the 9500.) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. -- Leonardo da Vinci ----------- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 23:56:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 21:56:18 -0800 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <43E19049.1080307@gmail.com> References: <004201c6260a$0e716a00$72781941@game> <43E19049.1080307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200602012156180800.5009FF56@10.0.0.252> On 2/1/2006 at 11:53 PM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Indeed. You passed up tubes. That must've hurt. > >Peace... Sridhar I can remember when the Michigan Ave. surplus dealers were selling WW II surplus 1625's (807s with a 7 pin base and 12.6v heaters) for $10 per original case of 50. The 50's and 60's were a very heady time for military surplus. I still have a shipboard general-coverage receiver that last saw service in Okinawa in 1945. I run it from an old WE telco power supply. Not a bit of hum in the output. Maybe we'll see some surplus from the current entanglements, someday. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 00:13:46 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 01:13:46 -0500 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: <200602020552.VAA16200@floodgap.com> References: <200602020552.VAA16200@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <43E1A31A.9040203@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>I admined them for awhile. I now have and still run the only (I think) >>>non-IBM >>>machine to run AIX, the Apple Network Server -- I have a 500 and a 700. >>>They both run AIX 4. >> >>Nope. There are a bunch of machines made by Groupe Bull that run a >>customized AIX. > > I thought those were rebadged RS/6000s, though (that were otherwise bog > standard designs). If not, what's the difference? Mostly onboard peripherals. And chipset stuff. The machine is different enough to require a customized OS image. > (For the curious, the ANSes are just funky Power Macs, distant relatives > of the 9500.) But, the PReP RS/6000's aren't all that different from a Mac. Hell, the CHRP RS/6000's aren't unrecognizable to a Mac OS hacker. Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Feb 2 00:28:57 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 00:28:57 -0600 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: <43E19D23.6050801@gmail.com> References: <200602020546.VAA23076@floodgap.com> <43E19D23.6050801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43E1A6A9.3090807@mdrconsult.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>> Does anyone on the list have an IBM RS/6000 machine? >> >> >> >> I admined them for awhile. I now have and still run the only (I think) >> non-IBM >> machine to run AIX, the Apple Network Server -- I have a 500 and a 700. >> They both run AIX 4. > > > Nope. There are a bunch of machines made by Groupe Bull that run a > customized AIX. And the Motorola PowerStacks, too. Doc From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Feb 2 00:29:41 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 22:29:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Convergent Technologies CTOS/ Burroughs BTOS systems on eBay Message-ID: <20060202062941.58263.qmail@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> CTOS was a distributed microkernel OS considered to be quite ahead of its time. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8757530160&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 eBay: Collection of Burroughs B20/BTOS systems, B25, B28, B38 (item 8757530160 end time Feb-02-06 22:57:02 PST) From trag at io.com Wed Feb 1 12:55:30 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 12:55:30 -0600 Subject: SIMMs and other memory dongles (was: Common items you passed up In-Reply-To: <200602010738.k117cilG088827@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200602010738.k117cilG088827@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:17:49 +0000 (GMT) >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >> >> It is. I own some three or four cards which have four 30-pin SIMM >> >> sockets and are designed to plug into a 72-pin socket. >> > As I look at these, I notice that they're all adapters as opposed to >> > something that gangs up multiple SIMMs to create a higher capacity >> > "SIMM". Anyone seen anything like that? >> >> Um, that's exactly what mine do, unless I'm misunderstanding you. For >> example, you can plug four 1M 30-pin SIMMs into one and you get a 4M >> 72-pin "SIMM". > >A 1M 30 pin ZIMM has 1048576 locations each of 9 bits. > >A 4M 72 pin SIMM has 1048576 locations each of 36 bits. It's electrically >much the same a 4 20 pin SIMMs. I suspect the adapter is just connectors >wired together in the right way. > >I think what the first poster wants is a thing that takes 4 30-pin 1M >SIMMs and looks like a 4M 30 pin SIMM to the rest of the system. That is, >it appears to have 4194304 locations, each of 9 bits. It's not hard to >design something like that I think, but it would inovlve a few chips It would be the same logic one finds on "composite" SIMMs. These are SIMMs of larger capacity built out of many chips of smaller capacity. Typically, there are 32 or 36 (non-parity vs. parity) identical memory chips on a composite SIMM, plus one or more chips to handle the logic to which Tony refers. I've seen the logic handled in one or two 16V8 PALs in a 20 pin PLCC package. The composite 30-pin SIMMs I've seen have a total capacity of 16MB (16M X 8 or 9) built out of thirty-two or thirty-six 4M X 1 chips. I have also seen composite 72-pin SIMMs with a capacity of 64MB (16M X 36, parity) built out of thirty-six 4M X 4 chips. However, the 72-pin composite SIMM had no additional logic. I haven't looked at the spec, but I assume that 72 pin SIMMs support splitting the CAS lines from the host somehow into multiple banks on a single SIMM? Or maybe there were some surface mount transistors playing with the address lines which I overlooked. I've seen adapters under the commercial name SIMM'verter that do the 4 30-pin into 1 72 pin conversion. But I've never seen one that does 4 30-pin into 1 30-pin. However, I have seen 2 72-pin into 1 72-pin adapters, so there might be a 4:1 30 pin adapter. Still, a set of four 16MB 30 pin SIMMs on Ebay typically goes for $25 plus shipping. So why not just buy the 16MB 30 pin SIMMs and avoid the possible reliability issues of converters? A converter (and/or composite SIMM) may overload the current capacity of the address or control line drivers of the host machine. I have been working on (very slowly) a design for some 16MB 30-pin SIMMs that use just two 16M X 4 chips. It is going slowly because I'm laying out an 8.5" X 11" panel for economic reasons, and my IIfx SIMM design is on the same panel, and my software doesn't copy and paste traces, so I'm having to layout duplicates on the panel by hand. Jeff Walther From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 1 19:37:30 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 17:37:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: archiving hard drives, Televideo PM/4T and AT&T7300 Message-ID: <20060202013730.35321.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> I have 2 systems in particular for which I'd like to create images of the hard drives (well it would be nice anyway). The first is an AT & T 7300 "UNIX PC" (68010 based). The other is a Televideo "Personal Mini" PM/4T or something (80186 based). What's the best way to go about it? It's not unlikely I'd find an archive of 7300 software out there on the net (I have MANY of the original disks, and my attempts at imaging them have failed), but the Televid uses Infoshare, which I believe is OEM Netware 1.0 or something. So what would be the best way to go about it? This is assuming the Televideo's hard drive works at all (it spins). I have it's original disks also, but they're flakey. I'll get more info on the type of drives used in the coming days. It would be nice if I could plug them into a peecee, but this is assuming the file systems are compatible - somewhat of a long shot. Grassyass. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Feb 2 01:15:04 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 02:15:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: PLATO system / CDC mainframe / PLATO terminals In-Reply-To: <43DFA4BF.9020606@mcdermith.net> References: <200601311607.LAA22786@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <43DFA4BF.9020606@mcdermith.net> Message-ID: <200602020721.CAA28775@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I used PLATO in the late '70s at the University of Colorado >> (Colorado Springs branch) - they had a couple of terminals which >> were connected to a machine somewhere farther north; my memory >> waffles on whether it was at Urbana-Champaign or >> Minneapolis/St-Paul. > UCCS terminals went through a concentrator to Boulder first, then on > to the CDC system in Minnesota. Ah, okay. (I never knew enough about PLATO to pick up on details like that, if indeed I as an end user would be capable of noticing such things....) > At least in Colorado Springs, we did not have access to the UI > machines. "We"? You were at UCCS at the time? (See below.) >> I feel very nostalgic about it. I'd like to find a live PLATO >> community. (cyber1.org is out because they demand agreeing to >> foreign legal jurisdiction, and worse, the jurisdiction they demand >> is in the USA, one of the most unreasonably litigous places on the >> planet.) > I don't mind, living in this "unreasonably litigous place".... Yes, if I lived there I probably wouldn't mind - or certainly would mind a lot less - myself. Of course, its litigousness is one of the reasons I *don't* live there, so make of that what you will.... > I was also at UCCS in the later 70's and spent a fair bit of time on > the two PLATO plasma terminals that were across the hall from the > "computing center" (the room with the batch terminal to the CDC > machines in boulder) Now that is cool. Small world. There's some chance you'd even remember me, since I was somewhat memorable at the time - UCCS News even did a few pages on me, and while I'm not thrilled by the direction the spun some of it, it was kinda neat to be in the student paper. I was that kid of 13 or so. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Feb 2 01:21:50 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 01:21:50 -0600 Subject: archiving hard drives, Televideo PM/4T and AT&T7300 In-Reply-To: <20060202013730.35321.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060202013730.35321.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43E1B30E.4080906@mdrconsult.com> Chris M wrote: > I have 2 systems in particular for which I'd like to > create images of the hard drives (well it would be > nice anyway). The first is an AT & T 7300 "UNIX PC" > (68010 based). The other is a Televideo "Personal > Mini" PM/4T or something (80186 based). What's the > best way to go about it? It's not unlikely I'd find an > archive of 7300 software out there on the net (I have > MANY of the original disks, and my attempts at imaging > them have failed) Chris, the UnixPC will dupe those disks itself. It's slow going to be sure, but it works. I've got an idea that Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk might handle those install floppies, but my UnixPC is in storage and *way* down on the project list. Doc From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 2 01:23:12 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 23:23:12 -0800 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: <43E19D23.6050801@gmail.com> References: <200602020546.VAA23076@floodgap.com> <43E19D23.6050801@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 12:48 AM -0500 2/2/06, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Nope. There are a bunch of machines made by Groupe Bull that run a >customized AIX. Out of curiosity, are those some of the funky front-ends to GCOS-8 systems? Or something different? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jhoger at pobox.com Thu Feb 2 01:31:05 2006 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 23:31:05 -0800 Subject: CP/M driver questions In-Reply-To: <200601291312060175.3EB70BE9@10.0.0.252> References: <1138510680.32376.307.camel@aragorn> <200601282126390634.3B557947@10.0.0.252> <200601291312060175.3EB70BE9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <1138865465.32376.471.camel@aragorn> On Sun, 2006-01-29 at 13:12 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1/28/2006 at 9:26 PM Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >>Can drivers for CP/M machines be loaded at run-time? > > Also, have a look at the way XSUB.COM operates--for all intents and > purposes, it's a CP/M TSR that hooks the BDOS request entry. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Thanks Chuck. Seems I've a bit of a learning curve on CP/M, but I'd like to figure this out. My NEC 8500 would be so much more fun if I could build little programs on it. -- John. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 2 01:31:04 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 23:31:04 -0800 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:03 PM -0700 2/1/06, Richard wrote: >Does anyone on the list have an IBM RS/6000 machine? They had some >pretty spiffy graphics options in the early 90s. I had a coworker who >did some cool fractal demo hacks for them while he worked for the >local IBM office. Had one on my desk at work for years (and the P200 monitor till it died), plus I was responsible for several of the big servers. Personally all the ones I've seen with a graphics display, had pretty poor 8-bit graphics. But then the Sun's of that era tended to be 8-bit as well. This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask, I've got an RS/6000-350 era keyboard, is there anyway to use it on a standard PC? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Feb 2 01:34:32 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 01:34:32 -0600 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E1B608.3070604@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask, I've got an > RS/6000-350 era keyboard, is there anyway to use it on a standard PC? Did you try plugging it in? Seriously, it's not *exactly* PeeCee PS/2, but your PC won't notice the difference. Best keyboards in the biz, baybee. It was worth finding a USB-PS/2 dobgle that really works so I can use one on my G5. Doc From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 02:33:25 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 01:33:25 -0700 Subject: PLATO system / CDC mainframe / PLATO terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:56:15 -0700. <43DFA4BF.9020606@mcdermith.net> Message-ID: In article <43DFA4BF.9020606 at mcdermith.net>, Bill McDermith writes: > I was also at UCCS in the later 70's and spent a fair bit of time on the two > PLATO plasma terminals that were across the hall from the "computing > center" (the room with the batch terminal to the CDC machines in boulder) Once again it sounds like I was lucky enough to be in a spoiled environment. UDel had a *large* PLATO installation, with PLATO terminal rooms located in the music building, the computer science building, and the education department building. The smallest of these PLATO terminal rooms had ~10 terminals, while the largest easily had 25-30. Of course, we had our own CDC machine, I can't recall the model number. Our timesharing terminal room easily had 100 terminals in it: a mix of HP2621s, HP2648As and LA-36s. Over time the LAs were all swapped out for VT-100 clones, I think they were Wyse? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 02:37:05 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 01:37:05 -0700 Subject: PLATO system / CDC mainframe / PLATO terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 02:15:04 -0500. <200602020721.CAA28775@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: In article <200602020721.CAA28775 at Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, der Mouse writes: > I was that kid of 13 or so. :-) Well, I never got any publicity over it, but similarly I was 13 and teaching myself BASIC on UDel's HP3000 and then later the PDP-11/70 run by Project DELTA. I was in 8th grade (middle school) at the time and everyone seemed rather impressed, but it just seemed like another intellectual pursuit to me. I also used PLATO (the educational software was fun at that age), did a teensy eensy bit of Tutor programming, and got my EE undergrad degree there as well. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 02:51:58 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 01:51:58 -0700 Subject: DEC field service spares kits In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 00:29:26 -0500. <1b8.23ca1d8a.3112f2b6@aol.com> Message-ID: In article <1b8.23ca1d8a.3112f2b6 at aol.com>, Useddec at aol.com writes: > I have a large number of field service spares kits for a variety of DEC items > including but not limited to tapes, disks, printers, terminals, CPU's > (including, q-bus, unibus, pdp8, and VAX's) and much more. If you have any q uestions > or interest, please contact me directly. More wish list items: - VT-100 - LA-120 - PDP_11/70 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 02:51:02 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 01:51:02 -0700 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 01:34:32 -0600. <43E1B608.3070604@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: In article <43E1B608.3070604 at mdrconsult.com>, Doc Shipley writes: > Best keyboards in the biz, baybee. It was worth finding a USB-PS/2 > dobgle that really works so I can use one on my G5. I liked the NCD 16 X terminal keyboards very much. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 02:50:22 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 01:50:22 -0700 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 01 Feb 2006 23:31:04 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > Personally all the ones I've seen with a graphics display, had pretty > poor 8-bit graphics. But then the Sun's of that era tended to be > 8-bit as well. Well, you could get an E&S Freedom accelerator for it :-), which was a pretty good piece of graphics iron. (You could also get a Freedom for Sun or HP; E&S gave up making their own platform after the MIPS based ESV and their next workstation product was an accelerator for other people's platform, with only the host interface and software changing between platforms. The Freedom had something like 128 bitplanes, hardware texture and so-on. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 02:46:25 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 01:46:25 -0700 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 00:25:18 -0500. <43E197BE.6010506@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <43E197BE.6010506 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > I have dozens (literally) of RS/6000's, plus I admin RS/6000's for a living. So apparently they're not hard to come by :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 2 06:35:58 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 12:35:58 +0000 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E1FCAE.8090709@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > Does anyone on the list have an IBM RS/6000 machine? They had some > pretty spiffy graphics options in the early 90s. I had a coworker who > did some cool fractal demo hacks for them while he worked for the > local IBM office. Should be a couple of racked ones heading this way in the near future - will be nice to see, as we don't have much IBM kit (other than the usual 5150 / 5160 / AT stuff) cheers Jules From shirsch at adelphia.net Thu Feb 2 06:40:58 2006 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 07:40:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:03 PM -0700 2/1/06, Richard wrote: > >Does anyone on the list have an IBM RS/6000 machine? They had some > >pretty spiffy graphics options in the early 90s. I had a coworker who > >did some cool fractal demo hacks for them while he worked for the > >local IBM office. > > Had one on my desk at work for years (and the P200 monitor till it died), plus > I was responsible for several of the big servers. Personally all the ones > I've seen with a graphics display, had pretty poor 8-bit graphics. But then > the Sun's of that era tended to be 8-bit as well. > > This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask, I've got an RS/6000-350 > era keyboard, is there anyway to use it on a standard PC? To the best of my knowledge, the only difference between an RS6K and PC/AT style keyboard is the presence of an internal speaker on the former. Steve From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 07:28:40 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:28:40 -0500 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: <43E1A6A9.3090807@mdrconsult.com> References: <200602020546.VAA23076@floodgap.com> <43E19D23.6050801@gmail.com> <43E1A6A9.3090807@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43E20908.3090700@gmail.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> >>>> Does anyone on the list have an IBM RS/6000 machine? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I admined them for awhile. I now have and still run the only (I >>> think) non-IBM >>> machine to run AIX, the Apple Network Server -- I have a 500 and a 700. >>> They both run AIX 4. >> >> >> >> Nope. There are a bunch of machines made by Groupe Bull that run a >> customized AIX. > > > And the Motorola PowerStacks, too. Oh yeah. I forgot about those. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 07:29:18 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:29:18 -0500 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: <200602020546.VAA23076@floodgap.com> <43E19D23.6050801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43E2092E.3050100@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 12:48 AM -0500 2/2/06, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Nope. There are a bunch of machines made by Groupe Bull that run a >> customized AIX. > > > Out of curiosity, are those some of the funky front-ends to GCOS-8 > systems? Or something different? Nope. They're pretty standard AIX-based servers. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 07:30:20 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:30:20 -0500 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E2096C.3010400@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:03 PM -0700 2/1/06, Richard wrote: > >> Does anyone on the list have an IBM RS/6000 machine? They had some >> pretty spiffy graphics options in the early 90s. I had a coworker who >> did some cool fractal demo hacks for them while he worked for the >> local IBM office. > > > Had one on my desk at work for years (and the P200 monitor till it > died), plus I was responsible for several of the big servers. > Personally all the ones I've seen with a graphics display, had pretty > poor 8-bit graphics. But then the Sun's of that era tended to be 8-bit > as well. > > This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask, I've got an > RS/6000-350 era keyboard, is there anyway to use it on a standard PC? If it's one without the speaker, just plugging it in should work. If it isn't, it's probably a bit of a waste using it on a PC. Should really be used on a risc. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 07:31:06 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:31:06 -0500 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E2099A.5080206@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <43E197BE.6010506 at gmail.com>, > Sridhar Ayengar writes: > > >>I have dozens (literally) of RS/6000's, plus I admin RS/6000's for a living. > > So apparently they're not hard to come by :) Not particularly. Especially around here in IBMland. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 07:31:41 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:31:41 -0500 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E209BD.3050404@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article , > "Zane H. Healy" writes: > > >>Personally all the ones I've seen with a graphics display, had pretty >>poor 8-bit graphics. But then the Sun's of that era tended to be >>8-bit as well. > > > Well, you could get an E&S Freedom accelerator for it :-), which was a > pretty good piece of graphics iron. (You could also get a Freedom for > Sun or HP; E&S gave up making their own platform after the MIPS based > ESV and their next workstation product was an accelerator for other > people's platform, with only the host interface and software changing > between platforms. > > The Freedom had something like 128 bitplanes, hardware texture and > so-on. That's not the only one. There were the POWER GXT series. Some of the 3D ones had quite a bit of speed. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 07:33:00 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:33:00 -0500 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E20A0C.3070106@gmail.com> Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > On Wed, 1 Feb 2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >>At 10:03 PM -0700 2/1/06, Richard wrote: >> >>>Does anyone on the list have an IBM RS/6000 machine? They had some >>>pretty spiffy graphics options in the early 90s. I had a coworker who >>>did some cool fractal demo hacks for them while he worked for the >>>local IBM office. >> >>Had one on my desk at work for years (and the P200 monitor till it died), plus >>I was responsible for several of the big servers. Personally all the ones >>I've seen with a graphics display, had pretty poor 8-bit graphics. But then >>the Sun's of that era tended to be 8-bit as well. >> >>This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask, I've got an RS/6000-350 >>era keyboard, is there anyway to use it on a standard PC? > > > To the best of my knowledge, the only difference between an RS6K and > PC/AT style keyboard is the presence of an internal speaker on the former. AFAICR, there's some scan code difference. And it's not the AT keyboard it's similar to. It's the PS/2 keyboard. Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 07:48:56 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 06:48:56 -0700 Subject: what bus is this for? Message-ID: ebay item #8760295547, prototyping board Card edge connector with 44 contacts, 22 per side, 0.156" spacing Is this STD bus? I'm not planning on buying it, I was just curious :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 07:56:42 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 06:56:42 -0700 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:31:06 -0500. <43E2099A.5080206@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <43E2099A.5080206 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > Richard wrote: > > In article <43E197BE.6010506 at gmail.com>, > > Sridhar Ayengar writes: > > > > > >>I have dozens (literally) of RS/6000's, plus I admin RS/6000's for a living . > > > > So apparently they're not hard to come by :) > > Not particularly. Especially around here in IBMland. Do you particularly care what graphics they are running? Or do you just take 'em with whatever they have. At some point I'd like to get one of these with a nice 3D graphics option installed. When that time comes, I'd like to know what's commonly in them as far as graphics options are concerned. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 07:59:35 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 06:59:35 -0700 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:31:41 -0500. <43E209BD.3050404@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <43E209BD.3050404 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > Richard wrote: > > In article , > > "Zane H. Healy" writes: > > > >>Personally all the ones I've seen with a graphics display, had pretty > >>poor 8-bit graphics. But then the Sun's of that era tended to be > >>8-bit as well. > > > > Well, you could get an E&S Freedom accelerator for it :-) [...] > > That's not the only one. There were the POWER GXT series. Some of the > 3D ones had quite a bit of speed. Oh yes, I didn't mean to imply the Freedom was the only beefy 3D card for it. I know IBM had their own 3D pipe around that time (1992) that they had for it. However, since I worked on the Freedom, its kinda dear to me :-). Speaking of Freedoms, if anyone comes across host interface cards or host software for Freedom accelerators, no matter what the host bus -- HP, Sun, IBM -- please let me know! I've got some accelerators here, but no host adapters or software. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From fryers at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 08:00:16 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 14:00:16 +0000 Subject: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery pack In-Reply-To: <43E1817B.1090200@ctgonline.org> References: <43E1817B.1090200@ctgonline.org> Message-ID: All, On 2/2/06, Paul Braun wrote: > Someone donated a Smart-UPS 1000 to our theatre. I have one of these - great units. [...] > And I accidentally > cracked the fuse while trying to extricate everything. I know I can get > the fuse at the parts store, but I don't think I'm going to have much > luck finding someone at APC to send me one jumper... Sorry for my density here, but, a) is the fuse carrier damaged? b) is the spade connector on the end of the lead damaged? c) is the cable damaged? My interpretation is a) but please correct me. I haven't had a chance to have a look at my SmartUPS 1000 but from what I remember when I changed the batteries, the spade lugs and wire are all pretty much standard items. The fuse carrier could be a little more difficult to source but it didn't strike me as being something that could be unobtainable. I would have thought that making an equivalent jumper would not have posed any great difficulty. I have just tried to check the fuse carrier in a 700 model but this one does not seem to have the same fuse arrangement. [...] > "The Fountain of Youth is a state of mind." - The Ides of March You are only as old as the woman you feel. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Feb 2 08:15:43 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 06:15:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP Message-ID: <200602021415.GAA12298@floodgap.com> http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060201/sc_space/eraendswesternunionstopssendingt elegrams STOP -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It is one thing to praise discipline, and another to submit to it.-Cervantes From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Feb 2 08:27:13 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 09:27:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: PLATO system / CDC mainframe / PLATO terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602021428.JAA00276@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I was that kid of 13 or so. :-) > Well, I never got any publicity over it, but similarly I was 13 and > teaching myself BASIC on UDel's HP3000 and then later the PDP-11/70 > run by Project DELTA. I was in 8th grade (middle school) at the time Ah, well, you see, I was a regular UCCS student at the time. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Feb 2 08:47:30 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 09:47:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <200602012156180800.5009FF56@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > I still have a shipboard general-coverage receiver that > last saw service in Okinawa in 1945. What kind? And how do you know it was in Okinawa? > Maybe we'll see some surplus from the current entanglements, someday. Probably not. Military surplus is mostly dead, thanks to the politicians. What oes get thru to the public auctions generally has to be shredded or smashed. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 08:57:10 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 09:57:10 -0500 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E21DC6.4010701@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <43E2099A.5080206 at gmail.com>, > Sridhar Ayengar writes: > > >>Richard wrote: >> >>>In article <43E197BE.6010506 at gmail.com>, >>> Sridhar Ayengar writes: >>> >>> >>> >>>>I have dozens (literally) of RS/6000's, plus I admin RS/6000's for a living > > . > >>>So apparently they're not hard to come by :) >> >>Not particularly. Especially around here in IBMland. > > > Do you particularly care what graphics they are running? Or do you > just take 'em with whatever they have. At some point I'd like to get > one of these with a nice 3D graphics option installed. When that time > comes, I'd like to know what's commonly in them as far as graphics > options are concerned. I use most of them as servers, and when I am looking for a workstation, I usually buy the cards separately on ebay anyway (they're readily available), so I don't really care about the graphics. My current primary workstation has a POWER GXT6500P. Very, very fast PCI card. Peace... Sridhar From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Feb 2 08:44:08 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 06:44:08 -0800 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <20060201001211.96279.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060201001211.96279.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1138891448.43e21ab8b1dee@webmail.secure-wi.com> Quoting Chris M : > You're not saying a modern (internal) ATAPI cd-rom > (or dvd-rom?) would operate in such a machine with an > IDE card? I guess I could just try it - had my 5170 > out not hours ago to test my old 80188 based graphics > card (beeeeep beep beep :( ), but I don't know where > my IDE card went. I think it would work. It just seems out of character for a machine that old. But then again, loading everything via 1.2MB floppies was a nightmare yesterday . my data transfer machine is a PCjr with 360K floppies, which made things interesting. I'll probably put an IDE CD-ROM on it just to make it a little more useful instead of adding a 3.5" drive. (Or at least see how far I can get with that configuration before breaking down and adding the 3.5" drive.) > It would be nice to obtain a schematic of one of the > more primitive IDE cards *whistles*. And wouldn't > artwork be nice too ;). Would an 8-bit card take the > place of a 16-bit card in an AT? Presumably yes, > albeit slower I guess. The Acculogic sIDE/16 or > something has all discrete logic, save for a pal or > gal (or 2). Yes, this would be interesting. I had never realized that IDE was a superset of ST506. Now I'm thinking of all of the old 8 bit machines I have that could use an IDE hard disk. I've been trying to graft SCSI cards onto them, but 8 bit SCSI cards with BIOS aren't exactly common either. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 09:31:41 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:31:41 -0700 Subject: "Archives II" computer? Message-ID: E-bay item #8757314169 Anyone know what this is? There isn't much information posted there. I'm guessing its one of the Z80 CP/M herd of computers that were around before the IBM PC became the defacto "standard". I asked the guy some questions about it, but he hasn't reponded. Auction ends in 5.5 hrs with 0 bids so far... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 09:19:36 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:19:36 -0700 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 09:47:30 -0500. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > Maybe we'll see some surplus from the current entanglements, someday. > > Probably not. Military surplus is mostly dead, thanks to the > politicians. What oes get thru to the public auctions generally has to be > shredded or smashed. I see lots of stuff going through govliquidation.com, but most of it isn't very interesting and like ebay, they've eliminated market inefficiencies which translates to fewer good deals for scroungers like us. What is mostly frustrating is that they don't just wipe hard drives from computers, they *remove* them. So there are all these computers out there, some of which are interesting, but don't have any kind of storage to go with them. If you thought it was difficult to find classic computers, try getting isolated storage units for classic computers! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Feb 2 10:08:37 2006 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:08:37 -0500 Subject: northstart stuff In-Reply-To: <001101c6194d$ee5aebb0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> References: <001101c6194d$ee5aebb0$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Message-ID: <43E22E85.80407@bellsouth.net> Jay West wrote: > So, in all this mess, it sounds like there is no OS disks. Hopefully, > there are some Northstar fans around than can help :) Contact Allison Parent -- I'm certain she has every North* disk imaginable and will be happy to share. Unfortunately, she is no longer monitoring this list. She originally unsubscribed during the Great Flame War which resulted in the cctalk/cctech split -- along with quite a few other highly knowledgable long-timers who had better things to do than wade through a bunch of rants. After two years, she decided to sign up again, but bailed because of the (IMHO, and evidently hers too) *outrageous* "hand over the code" opinions which were voiced regarding Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk project. Among other things, Allison is a top-notch expert and repository of knowledge concerning DEC equipment, CP/M, and the 765, and she is always willing to share information and help those in need. As far as I can tell from my email exchanges with her, she just couldn't stomach the belligerent and disrespectful *crap* posted by those list-members -- and they know who they are -- who persisted in denigrating Mr. Dunfield and his contributions to classic computing, even going so far as to state that he was "harming the hobby." Again, we have lost the contributions of an expert member of this list due to the actions of a few self-righteous bullies, and personally, I think it is a crying f*cking shame. Glen Goodwin 0/0 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 2 10:24:50 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:24:50 -0800 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: <43E1B608.3070604@mdrconsult.com> References: <43E1B608.3070604@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: At 1:34 AM -0600 2/2/06, Doc Shipley wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask, I've got an >>RS/6000-350 era keyboard, is there anyway to use it on a standard >>PC? > > Did you try plugging it in? Seriously, it's not *exactly* PeeCee >PS/2, but your PC won't notice the difference. When the RS/6000-370 on my desk was replaced with a IBM PC running Linux I tried it, but didn't have any luck. I'll have to see if I can get it working on my new systems. There are at least two of us that are wanting to use them (though I think I'm the only person that's hung onto their keyboard, the other person is looking for one). > Best keyboards in the biz, baybee. It was worth finding a >USB-PS/2 dobgle that really works so I can use one on my G5. You have it working on your G5!?!? Of course I'm still running my Apple Extended II Keyboard via a USB-ADB converter :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Feb 2 10:36:24 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:36:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Feb 2, 6 08:24:50 am" Message-ID: <200602021636.IAA17354@floodgap.com> > > Best keyboards in the biz, baybee. It was worth finding a > > USB-PS/2 dobgle that really works so I can use one on my G5. > > You have it working on your G5!?!? Of course I'm still running my > Apple Extended II Keyboard via a USB-ADB converter :^) LOL! I did the exact same thing! -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I've dedicated my life to linguini." ----- From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Feb 2 10:47:28 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:47:28 -0800 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602020847.28308.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 01 February 2006 21:03, Richard wrote: > Does anyone on the list have an IBM RS/6000 machine? They had some > pretty spiffy graphics options in the early 90s. I had a coworker who > did some cool fractal demo hacks for them while he worked for the > local IBM office. I have several - and one which I keep running, sitting right next to the Linux workstation I use for email. It's running AIX 5L and has a rather high end graphic card (for it's time). I'd like to play with the fractal demo if you have a copy. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From nerdware at ctgonline.org Thu Feb 2 11:00:15 2006 From: nerdware at ctgonline.org (Paul Braun) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:00:15 -0600 Subject: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery pack In-Reply-To: References: <43E1817B.1090200@ctgonline.org> Message-ID: <43E23A9F.4030202@ctgonline.org> Simon Fryer wrote: > > Sorry for my density here, but, > a) is the fuse carrier damaged? This isn't the AC fuse, but the blue plastic automotive fuse that is in series between the two cells in the battery pack. > b) is the spade connector on the end of the lead damaged? Yep. It's quite corroded. I tried soaking it in Coke and something else to clean off the corrosion, but it's still pretty ugly. I also broke the spade on the fuse, but that should be a standard automotive fuse. > c) is the cable damaged? > Only to the extent that the crimped-on spade lug is nasty. > > I would have thought that making an equivalent jumper would not have > posed any great difficulty. > I have a couple of heavy jumpers that have spades matching the battery terminals, but the fuse lugs are wider and won't fit. The factory jumpers have two different-sized lugs. I could probably just try the local electronic store and see if they have lugs that match. This UPS has an AC fuse in a holder on the back panel, and the 60 amp fuse in between the two battery cells. > > > You are only as old as the woman you feel. > > I designed sound for a play that used that phrase... -- Paul Braun Valparaiso, IN "There's a fine line between stupid, and clever." - David St. Hubbins "Enjoy every sandwich." - Warren Zevon "The Fountain of Youth is a state of mind." - The Ides of March From ken at seefried.com Thu Feb 2 11:01:49 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 12:01:49 -0500 Subject: what bus is this for? In-Reply-To: <200602021616.k12GGLas009047@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200602021616.k12GGLas009047@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060202170149.3396.qmail@seefried.com> From: Richard > > ebay item #8760295547, prototyping board > > Card edge connector with 44 contacts, 22 per side, 0.156" spacing > > Is this STD bus? I'm not planning on buying it, I was just > curious :) > STD-Bus has 56-pins on .125" centers. Ken From bert at brothom.nl Thu Feb 2 11:14:57 2006 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 18:14:57 +0100 Subject: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery pack In-Reply-To: <43E23A9F.4030202@ctgonline.org> References: <43E1817B.1090200@ctgonline.org> <43E23A9F.4030202@ctgonline.org> Message-ID: <43E23E11.2020900@brothom.nl> > Yep. It's quite corroded. I tried soaking it in Coke and something > else to clean off the corrosion, but it's still pretty ugly. Hey, mythbusters busted that one! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 11:20:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 10:20:44 -0700 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 08:47:28 -0800. <200602020847.28308.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: In article <200602020847.28308.lbickley at bickleywest.com>, Lyle Bickley writes: > [...] I'd like to play with the fractal demo if you > have a copy. He made it for a visualization symposium at the UofU, probably around 1994/1995 time frame. I've been trying to get him to send me the source code for years, I don't know if its even accessible at this point, but I'll prod him again and see what happens :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 11:21:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 10:21:57 -0700 Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery pack) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 18:14:57 +0100. <43E23E11.2020900@brothom.nl> Message-ID: In article <43E23E11.2020900 at brothom.nl>, Bert Thomas writes: > > Yep. It's quite corroded. I tried soaking it in Coke and something > > else to clean off the corrosion, but it's still pretty ugly. > > Hey, mythbusters busted that one! Maybe we should come up with a list of computing myths and submit them to mythbusters? I bet the old hands around here know quite a few! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 2 11:23:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 09:23:32 -0800 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602020923320289.527F2AA5@10.0.0.252> On 2/2/2006 at 9:47 AM William Donzelli wrote: >> I still have a shipboard general-coverage receiver that >> last saw service in Okinawa in 1945. > >What kind? And how do you know it was in Okinawa? CAY-46077, part of an RBM-4 installation. The service records were kept on a sheet of paper attached to the inside of the top access lid. Made by Westinghouse. >Probably not. Military surplus is mostly dead, thanks to the >politicians. What oes get thru to the public auctions generally has to be >shredded or smashed. That's a shame. If I think of the things that made electronics fun back in the 1950's and 60's, it was the availability of components scavenged from old radios and TVs and military surplus. If you were on a budget, you usually could afford to buy a "Command Set" and rig up a power supply for it. A novice could build a very serviceable CW transmitter using parts from a junked TV (using the horizontal output tube, something like a 6BG6 for the final). War surplus crystals and a key and you were in business. At worst, you could use the remainder of what you found to build a workable regen receiver. I don't know how someone would being to learn and tinker with electronics today. Most semiconductors one runs into are highly minaturized and highly integrated; scavenging is a lot more difficult. Cheers, Chuck From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 2 11:30:55 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:30:55 -0500 Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery pack) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c6281e$6cefe9b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> My favorite computer myth is Apple invented PDAs. It is sooooo not true (nor HP, nor Psion...) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 12:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery pack) In article <43E23E11.2020900 at brothom.nl>, Bert Thomas writes: > > Yep. It's quite corroded. I tried soaking it in Coke and something > > else to clean off the corrosion, but it's still pretty ugly. > > Hey, mythbusters busted that one! Maybe we should come up with a list of computing myths and submit them to mythbusters? I bet the old hands around here know quite a few! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Feb 2 11:41:14 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:41:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery In-Reply-To: <000901c6281e$6cefe9b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <20060202174114.138F65813E@mail.wordstock.com> > > My favorite computer myth is Apple invented PDAs. > > It is sooooo not true (nor HP, nor Psion...) > I remember your talk (and display!) at the last VCF east. You didn't hold back how you felt about Apple... ;) Cheers, Bryan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 11:42:10 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:42:10 +0000 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <200602020923320289.527F2AA5@10.0.0.252> References: <200602020923320289.527F2AA5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 2/2/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't know how someone would being to learn and tinker with electronics > today. Most semiconductors one runs into are highly minaturized and highly > integrated; scavenging is a lot more difficult. Mostly I scavenge connectors and such... lots of the gear I tear apart is filled with purpose-built semiconductors. I think I get further hacking entire devices for new purposes (iOpeners and similar data "appliances"). -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 2 11:46:47 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 09:46:47 -0800 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <1138891448.43e21ab8b1dee@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <20060201001211.96279.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <1138891448.43e21ab8b1dee@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <200602020946470826.529475F5@10.0.0.252> On 2/2/2006 at 6:44 AM mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: >Yes, this would be interesting. I had never realized that IDE was a >superset of ST506. Now I'm thinking of all of the old 8 bit machines I have that >could use an IDE hard disk. I've been trying to graft SCSI cards onto them, but 8 >bit SCSI cards with BIOS aren't exactly common either. Careful--most recent IDE drives are not capable of 8-bit data transfers. Commands and status are read and written from 8 bit registers, but the data transfer part of the operation is 16 bit. There IS an 8-bit transfer capability defined by the ATA standard, but it was deprecated in ATA-3 and most drives don't handle it. There may be some old controllers around that can do the translation, but ATA on 8 bit PC-XT was pretty rare. However, it'd be easy to prototype up a controller. Alternatively, you could do much of what you wanted in software--just ignore half the sector data and read 2 sectors when one was requested. All in all, it'd probably STILL be faster than the old 5.25 MFM drives. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 11:52:03 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 10:52:03 -0700 Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery pack) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 12:30:55 -0500. <000901c6281e$6cefe9b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: In article <000901c6281e$6cefe9b0$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" writes: > My favorite computer myth is Apple invented PDAs. Sure, but that's not the kind of myth they test at mythbusters :-). This is just simple historical incorrectness which can be debunked by a little history reading. I'm thinking things like oh... if you put your wallet on top of device X, then all your credit cards will be demagnetized. Stuff like that. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 2 11:52:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 09:52:18 -0800 Subject: what bus is this for? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602020952180859.52998A1C@10.0.0.252> On 2/2/2006 at 6:48 AM Richard wrote: >ebay item #8760295547, prototyping board > >Card edge connector with 44 contacts, 22 per side, 0.156" spacing > >Is this STD bus? I'm not planning on buying it, I was just >curious :) Not STD bus, but pretty ubiquitous as a prototyping item for a long time--I don't think Vector ever gave a specific name to its application. I remember installing a sub-card cage in my Altair 8800 with some of these (and a regulated +5v line) to give me an easy way to try out small circuits without going through the expense and rigamarole of a full sized S-100 prototyping card. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 11:53:05 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 10:53:05 -0700 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:42:10 +0000. Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > Mostly I scavenge connectors and such... lots of the gear I tear apart > is filled with purpose-built semiconductors. So how do you scavenge them? Turn on a blowtorch and wave vigorously on the underside untilt eh connector comes loose from the board? ;-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 11:55:42 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:55:42 +0000 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/2/06, Richard wrote: > So how do you scavenge them? Turn on a blowtorch and wave vigorously > on the underside untilt eh connector comes loose from the board? ;-) Nothing so expensive... I use a heat gun or a solder pot. -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 2 11:59:23 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:59:23 -0500 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: <43E1B608.3070604@mdrconsult.com> References: <43E1B608.3070604@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200602021259.23445.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 02 February 2006 02:34, Doc Shipley wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask, I've got an > > RS/6000-350 era keyboard, is there anyway to use it on a standard > > PC? > > Did you try plugging it in? Seriously, it's not *exactly* PeeCee > PS/2, but your PC won't notice the difference. > > Best keyboards in the biz, baybee. It was worth finding a > USB-PS/2 dobgle that really works so I can use one on my G5. Heh, I feel a little better knowing that I'm not the only one that has an RS/6000 keyboard hanging off my G5. I even have the 3-button RS/6000 mouse to go with it. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 2 11:59:27 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:59:27 -0500 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: <43E1B608.3070604@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200602021259.27303.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 02 February 2006 11:24, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 1:34 AM -0600 2/2/06, Doc Shipley wrote: > >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>This reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask, I've got an > >>RS/6000-350 era keyboard, is there anyway to use it on a standard > >>PC? > > > > Did you try plugging it in? Seriously, it's not *exactly* PeeCee > >PS/2, but your PC won't notice the difference. > > When the RS/6000-370 on my desk was replaced with a IBM PC running > Linux I tried it, but didn't have any luck. I'll have to see if I > can get it working on my new systems. There are at least two of us > that are wanting to use them (though I think I'm the only person > that's hung onto their keyboard, the other person is looking for > one). You could also just use a standard (PS/2) model M. Not all PCs will work with the RS/6000 version, We've got a bunch of SFF Gateway PC's we have as HPC cluster nodes, which won't work with the RS/6000 Model M's. I'd guess the problem is related to the extra current draw, or exceedingly long cable. Where would you find a Model M, you ask? Try emailing me off-list. :) > > Best keyboards in the biz, baybee. It was worth finding a > >USB-PS/2 dobgle that really works so I can use one on my G5. > > You have it working on your G5!?!? Of course I'm still running my > Apple Extended II Keyboard via a USB-ADB converter :^) Ick. Apple never made a keyboard nearly clicky enough to be usable IMO. :) Though, the older Apple (beige) keyboards are a lot more usable than the current (white, mushy) ones. I actually can't type worth a darn on those things. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 2 12:10:42 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:10:42 -0500 Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery In-Reply-To: <20060202174114.138F65813E@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <001b01c62823$fb72d0d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I found out lots more stuff after that talk, such as Apple's * other * handheld skunkworks projects. The top engineers from those projects all left Apple in frustration when the inferior Newton was picked as the one to commercialize. This information came from first-person sources. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Pope Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 12:41 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery > > My favorite computer myth is Apple invented PDAs. > > It is sooooo not true (nor HP, nor Psion...) > I remember your talk (and display!) at the last VCF east. You didn't hold back how you felt about Apple... ;) Cheers, Bryan From fryers at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 12:10:29 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 18:10:29 +0000 Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery pack) In-Reply-To: References: <000901c6281e$6cefe9b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: On 2/2/06, Richard wrote: > I'm thinking things like oh... if you put your wallet on top of device > X, then all your credit cards will be demagnetized. Stuff like that. You need something with a bit of a bigger bang and/or a higher level of danger. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 12:22:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:22:30 -0700 Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery pack) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 18:10:29 +0000. Message-ID: In article , Simon Fryer writes: > On 2/2/06, Richard wrote: > > > I'm thinking things like oh... if you put your wallet on top of device > > X, then all your credit cards will be demagnetized. Stuff like that. > > You need something with a bit of a bigger bang and/or a higher level of dange r. "A good way to discharge a capacitor is to use a screwdriver across the terminals." ??? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 12:21:54 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:21:54 -0700 Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:10:42 -0500. <001b01c62823$fb72d0d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: In article <001b01c62823$fb72d0d0$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" writes: > [...] The top engineers from those projects all > left Apple in frustration when the inferior Newton was picked as the one to > commercialize. Where did they go? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Feb 2 12:48:10 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 19:48:10 +0100 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP References: <200602021415.GAA12298@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <002e01c62829$3acea830$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 3:15 PM Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP > http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060201/sc_space/eraendswesternunionstopssendingt > elegrams > > STOP > Having been a Gentex telegrapher from 1962 to 1969 (31068 GV NL), and having enjoyed that job big time, it makes me a bit sad. Western Union had a regular office in Holland (12650 WU NL), just like Commercial (22106 CIAL NL). Commercial folded already in the early 70's, if I recall correctly. IMPERIAL didnt have an office in Holland, we were served from Belgium. Well, a big NNNN to them... Nico From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Feb 2 12:44:57 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 10:44:57 -0800 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E25329.5020701@mindspring.com> He's probably alluding to 'General Magic'. See http://www.byte.com/art/9402/sec3/art1.htm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Magic Richard wrote: > In article <001b01c62823$fb72d0d0$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, > "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" writes: > > >> [...] The top engineers from those projects all >> left Apple in frustration when the inferior Newton was picked as the one to >> commercialize. >> > > Where did they go? > From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Feb 2 12:48:50 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:48:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060202184850.A460A58138@mail.wordstock.com> > > > > "A good way to discharge a capacitor is to use a screwdriver across > the terminals." ??? > Isn't it? (As long as you are not touching the metal part of the screwdriver!) Cheers, Bryan From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Feb 2 12:49:01 2006 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:49:01 -0500 Subject: what bus is this for? Message-ID: From: Richard > > ebay item #8760295547, prototyping board > > Card edge connector with 44 contacts, 22 per side, 0.156" spacing > > Is this STD bus? I'm not planning on buying it, I was just > curious :) This 44-pin protoboard system was popularized by Vector and you could buy "backplanes" (either bare or bussed) as well as several different types of proto boards up through the 90's. They were on the shelves at Radio Shack for a couple decades. I think the boards are still available but the backplanes are not ready-made anymore. These were largely used for special-purpose one-off hardware designs, although certainly some did use them in bussed systems. 44 pins is a little sparse for a bus for an 8-bit-data-16-but-address system (although doable). Even the 100-pin S-100 bus didn't have enough grounds! Tim. From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Feb 2 12:52:27 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:52:27 -0500 Subject: what bus is this for? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602021352.27756.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 02 February 2006 08:48 am, Richard wrote: > ebay item #8760295547, prototyping board > > Card edge connector with 44 contacts, 22 per side, 0.156" spacing > > Is this STD bus? I'm not planning on buying it, I was just > curious :) STD bus is, IIRC, 56 contacts, I don't recall the spacing offhand but that might be it. Those 44-pin connectors were *real* common for a while, you could even buy them at radio shack and I even have some of those boards still new in the packaging. I also have a rackmount case with a card cage for those that I haven't decided what I'm going to do with it yet. 44 pins really isn't quite enough for a bus, unfortunately, not if you want all address and data lines running through it and enough control lines... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 2 12:58:45 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 10:58:45 -0800 Subject: Keyboard Converters (was Re: IBM RS/6000) In-Reply-To: <200602021636.IAA17354@floodgap.com> References: <200602021636.IAA17354@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 8:36 AM -0800 2/2/06, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Best keyboards in the biz, baybee. It was worth finding a >> > USB-PS/2 dobgle that really works so I can use one on my G5. >> >> You have it working on your G5!?!? Of course I'm still running my >> Apple Extended II Keyboard via a USB-ADB converter :^) > >LOL! I did the exact same thing! Something tells me that this is a fairly popular configuration with long-time Mac users. I used the keyboard that came with my G4/450 AGP for exactly 3 days till I could get the converter. It was three of the worst days of my life, as the original G4's shipped with that pathetic keyboard that was on the original iMac's. I didn't even try the keyboard that came with my G5, I simply set it aside. I do use it now, but on my work laptop, and only then because I don't have a better USB keyboard around. Mice are where I've had real problems once I switched to Mac OS X. First I was using a semi-acceptable mouse that shipped with HP Itanium 2 Workstations, now I'm using an IBM optical mouse (seems appropriate since I'm using my G5 keyboard on a Thinkpad). What I really want is a mouse like the classic Logitech mouse that shipped with most workstations in the late 90's. I've thought about getting a PS/2-to-USB converter to try and hook one up, but have kind of become hooked on the scroll-wheel for my Mac. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Feb 2 12:57:23 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 13:57:23 -0500 Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602021357.23697.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 02 February 2006 10:19 am, Richard wrote: > What is mostly frustrating is that they don't just wipe hard drives > from computers, they *remove* them. So there are all these computers > out there, some of which are interesting, but don't have any kind of > storage to go with them. If you thought it was difficult to find > classic computers, try getting isolated storage units for classic > computers! This is probably also the case at the "state surplus" in Harrisburg (PA). They used to sell more or less complete systems, but a while back some idiot of a reporter got a hold of some and bleated all over about how he found a bunch of personal information on one of the drives, including data on people and their social security numbers etc. So now they sell no hard drives at all. :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Feb 2 13:02:36 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:02:36 -0600 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: <43E1B608.3070604@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43E2574C.6070602@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > When the RS/6000-370 on my desk was replaced with a IBM PC running Linux > I tried it, but didn't have any luck. I'll have to see if I can get it > working on my new systems. There are at least two of us that are > wanting to use them (though I think I'm the only person that's hung onto > their keyboard, the other person is looking for one). Huh. I've had RS/6000s that wouldn't play nice with a PeeCee keyboard, but I've never seen an RS/6000 keyboard that didn't work on a PeeCee. > You have it working on your G5!?!? Of course I'm still running my Apple > Extended II Keyboard via a USB-ADB converter :^) Yep, with a no-name USB-to-dual-PS/2 adapter. That Apple Extended II Keyboard thing always tickles me - I hate 'em with a passion, but I completely understand why people pay $50-75 for the old IBM clickety keyboards. It must be a "where you came from" thing. So, the iMate works on a G5? Somebody asked me that recently. He's sticking with a DP G4 because he heard his iMate wasn't supported on the Big Gray Box. Doc From vrs at msn.com Thu Feb 2 13:04:37 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:04:37 -0800 Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC batterypack) References: Message-ID: From: "Richard" > "A good way to discharge a capacitor is to use a screwdriver across > the terminals." ??? Maybe all that silliness about imploding CRT tubes? Vince From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Feb 2 13:10:09 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:10:09 -0600 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: <200602021259.23445.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <43E1B608.3070604@mdrconsult.com> <200602021259.23445.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <43E25911.6050204@mdrconsult.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Heh, I feel a little better knowing that I'm not the only one that has > an RS/6000 keyboard hanging off my G5. I even have the 3-button > RS/6000 mouse to go with it. :) Both my wrists are wrecked from motorcycles and drilling rigs. Logitech Marble is the ONLY way to fly. Doc From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 2 13:20:27 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 14:20:27 -0500 Subject: IBM RS/6000 References: <43E1B608.3070604@mdrconsult.com> <200602021259.23445.pat@computer-refuge.org> <43E25911.6050204@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <011001c6282d$ba18e1b0$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 2:10 PM Subject: Re: IBM RS/6000 > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Heh, I feel a little better knowing that I'm not the only one that has > > an RS/6000 keyboard hanging off my G5. I even have the 3-button > > RS/6000 mouse to go with it. :) > > Both my wrists are wrecked from motorcycles and drilling rigs. > Logitech Marble is the ONLY way to fly. > > > Doc I have one of those Logitech marbles, they work well enough. In general I like using Microsoft optical on anything they will pug into. The other day I replaced my older belkin KVM with a newer version that does serial to PS2 mouse conversion so that my MS optical USB with PS2 adapter is connected to the KVM and my old 486/133 DOS/Windows 3.1 machine (using the old MS mouse driver disk) connected to the KVM with a serial cable works with it. There is just nothing smoother then an optical mouse in my opinion, and no balls that need cleaned (or mousepads full of cheet-os to dust off). From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 2 13:27:55 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 14:27:55 -0500 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <43E25329.5020701@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <000a01c6282e$c6c454c0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Nope, other stuff. One guy was Harry Vertelney who worked on a project called Smartifacts. He went into interactive TV and now he works on DARPA stuff at Sun. The other guy was Paul Mercer who worked on a project called Swatch. He founded Pixo which made the iPod interface and now he's doing a startup doing OS design for phones. Commercial plug: the relevant parts of their stories are on my PDA history page at http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm .... -Evan -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don North Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 1:45 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mythbusters He's probably alluding to 'General Magic'. See http://www.byte.com/art/9402/sec3/art1.htm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Magic Richard wrote: > In article <001b01c62823$fb72d0d0$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, > "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" writes: > > >> [...] The top engineers from those projects all left Apple in >> frustration when the inferior Newton was picked as the one to >> commercialize. >> > > Where did they go? > From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Feb 2 13:31:24 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:31:24 -0600 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: <011001c6282d$ba18e1b0$72781941@game> References: <43E1B608.3070604@mdrconsult.com> <200602021259.23445.pat@computer-refuge.org> <43E25911.6050204@mdrconsult.com> <011001c6282d$ba18e1b0$72781941@game> Message-ID: <43E25E0C.70805@mdrconsult.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > > I have one of those Logitech marbles, they work well enough. In general I > like using Microsoft optical on anything they will pug into. The other day I > replaced my older belkin KVM with a newer version that does serial to PS2 > mouse conversion so that my MS optical USB with PS2 adapter is connected to > the KVM and my old 486/133 DOS/Windows 3.1 machine (using the old MS mouse > driver disk) connected to the KVM with a serial cable works with it. There > is just nothing smoother then an optical mouse in my opinion, and no balls > that need cleaned (or mousepads full of cheet-os to dust off). Mmmm, Cheet-Os! You're right about the optical smoothness, which is why I like the Marble. It does need cleaning every couple of months, but it's worth it to avoid the wrist movement of a normal mouse. ObCC: And it works perfectly with RS/6000s, SGIs, NeXTstations, SPARC (with adapter), AXP, Mac, and even PeeCees! Doc From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 2 13:27:35 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:27:35 -0600 Subject: Realistic terminal emulator Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060202132609.04f98d20@mail> http://ldopa.net/2006/01/14/glterminal/ For Mac OS X, it uses OpenGL to imitate the distortion of the glass tube, simulates low baud rates, variations in brightness, flicker, in green or amber. - John From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Feb 2 13:36:06 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:36:06 -0600 Subject: Speaking of mice & keyboards Message-ID: <43E25F26.2020500@mdrconsult.com> Is there an adapter to use PS/2 or AT/serial input devices with an ADB Mac? If I could plug it into my KVM, my A/UX box would get a lot more use. Doc From kth at srv.net Thu Feb 2 14:04:48 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:04:48 -0700 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <20060202184850.A460A58138@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060202184850.A460A58138@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <43E265E0.3090602@srv.net> Bryan Pope wrote: >> >>"A good way to discharge a capacitor is to use a screwdriver across >>the terminals." ??? >> >> >> >Isn't it? (As long as you are not touching the metal part of the >screwdriver!) > > > Isn't it a good way to make a lousy hammer? Spot weld capaciter to the side of screwdriver. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Feb 2 13:58:03 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 11:58:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Speaking of mice & keyboards In-Reply-To: <43E25F26.2020500@mdrconsult.com> from Doc Shipley at "Feb 2, 6 01:36:06 pm" Message-ID: <200602021958.LAA17322@floodgap.com> > Is there an adapter to use PS/2 or AT/serial input devices with an > ADB Mac? I know such things existed, because I'd seen them, but I don't know what the brand names were or anything. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A zebra cannot change its spots. -- Al Gore -------------------------------- From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 14:01:48 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:01:48 -0500 Subject: Job openings in wireless/signal/embedded area? Message-ID: Folks, I am looking for a job. If you know job openings I would appreciate it if you could let me know. I hold a master's degree in wireless communications and you know I am also skilled in embedded/DSP area. Take a look of www.mscpscsi.com if you are suspecious of that :) vax, 9000 From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 2 14:29:09 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:29:09 -0500 Subject: Speaking of mice & keyboards References: <43E25F26.2020500@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <012301c62837$52d2d920$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 2:36 PM Subject: Speaking of mice & keyboards > Is there an adapter to use PS/2 or AT/serial input devices with an > ADB Mac? > > If I could plug it into my KVM, my A/UX box would get a lot more use. > > > Doc Belkin makes an overpriced small box that converts ADB into 2 separate PS/2 type inputs (and I think converts apples old video plug to standard vga) they sell to interface with their PS2 style KVM's. They show up on ebay all the time, but are $20+ or more I think. Since I have quite a few Macs I use a Dr.Bott 4 port ADB KVM, very nice but $200 new (mine was $50 on ebay mint condition with cables). What machine do you run A/UX on and what version of the software? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 2 14:29:20 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 12:29:20 -0800 Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery In-Reply-To: <20060202184850.A460A58138@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060202184850.A460A58138@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200602021229200492.53294DBC@10.0.0.252> > >> "A good way to discharge a capacitor is to use a screwdriver across the terminals." ??? >> >Isn't it? (As long as you are not touching the metal part of the >screwdriver!) Assuming you could get close enough with a large enough screwdriver, discharging one of those high-voltage PFC capacitor banks ought to give you a real sense of your own mortality. And how about those ultracaps being touted as energy storage for EVs? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 2 14:34:20 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 12:34:20 -0800 Subject: what bus is this for? In-Reply-To: <200602021352.27756.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200602021352.27756.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200602021234200290.532DE0D5@10.0.0.252> On 2/2/2006 at 1:52 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >new in the packaging. I also have a rackmount case with a card cage for >those that I haven't decided what I'm going to do with it yet. 44 pins >really isn't quite enough for a bus, unfortunately, not if you want all >address and data lines running through it and enough control lines... In the case of my MITS setup, the signals were pretty simple--8 I/O address lines, 16 data lines (IN/OUT) and decoded IORead and IOWrite. +5 and +/-12 power lines and the rest were grounded. There wasn't a ground for every signal, but given the speeds it worked at, it was fine. -Chuck From bert at brothom.nl Thu Feb 2 14:37:21 2006 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:37:21 +0100 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E26D81.1030403@brothom.nl> "You can't damage hardware by software" From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Feb 2 14:39:38 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:39:38 -0600 Subject: Speaking of mice & keyboards In-Reply-To: <012301c62837$52d2d920$72781941@game> References: <43E25F26.2020500@mdrconsult.com> <012301c62837$52d2d920$72781941@game> Message-ID: <43E26E0A.90906@mdrconsult.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > Belkin makes an overpriced small box that converts ADB into 2 separate PS/2 > type inputs (and I think converts apples old video plug to standard vga) > they sell to interface with their PS2 style KVM's. They show up on ebay all > the time, but are $20+ or more I think. $20 would actually be acceptable, expecially if it has a decent vbideo converter. > What machine do you run A/UX on and what version of the software? Quadra 700 with 64MB, and version 3.1. A couple of years ago I bought a literal pickup-load of Mac gear and broken VCRs just to get the original A/UX CDs and boot floppies. *Nothing* in that $75 load worked except the A/UX software and one 1GB SCSI drive. Doc From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 2 14:44:08 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:44:08 -0500 Subject: Mythbusters References: <43E26D81.1030403@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <013801c62839$6a9d79f0$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bert Thomas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 3:37 PM Subject: Re: Mythbusters > "You can't damage hardware by software" Outside of industrial automation? From kth at srv.net Thu Feb 2 15:04:47 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:04:47 -0700 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <43E26D81.1030403@brothom.nl> References: <43E26D81.1030403@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <43E273EF.7000001@srv.net> Bert Thomas wrote: > "You can't damage hardware by software" > > If you give a computer an impossible problem, it will explode. From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 14:53:25 2006 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 20:53:25 +0000 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <43E26D81.1030403@brothom.nl> References: <43E26D81.1030403@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <11c909eb0602021253j3bf88d87w@mail.gmail.com> On 02/02/06, Bert Thomas wrote: > > "You can't damage hardware by software" > > This may be a false memory, but wasn't there a POKE on CBM Pets that would fry the video hardware? -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 2 14:56:53 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:56:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: <43E2574C.6070602@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Feb 02, 2006 01:02:36 PM Message-ID: <200602022056.k12KurbR008476@onyx.spiritone.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Huh. I've had RS/6000s that wouldn't play nice with a PeeCee > keyboard, but I've never seen an RS/6000 keyboard that didn't work on a > PeeCee. It wouldn't work with the IBM MPro that I had (Dual CPU Pentium II), however, it seems to work with my current systems (IBM Thinkpad and an HP box, they're connected via a Cybex KVM). So far no issues, though I think my wrists are going to need to get used to using it again. > > You have it working on your G5!?!? Of course I'm still running my Apple > > Extended II Keyboard via a USB-ADB converter :^) > > Yep, with a no-name USB-to-dual-PS/2 adapter. One of these days I need to pick one of those up to experiment with. Though how on earth do you get the extra Apple keys on an IBM keyboard? > That Apple Extended II Keyboard thing always tickles me - I hate 'em > with a passion, but I completely understand why people pay $50-75 for > the old IBM clickety keyboards. It must be a "where you came from" thing. > > So, the iMate works on a G5? Somebody asked me that recently. He's > sticking with a DP G4 because he heard his iMate wasn't supported on the > Big Gray Box. I used a *lot* of different keyboards prior to the Apple Extended II Keyboard. It has a very nice solid feel to it, and I've been using it now for 9 years (three Mac's). In my case, I don't think it's a "where you came from" thing, I simply like the way it feels, and they way it sits on my desk. A *assume* what I'm using is an iMate. There are a couple of things that require a modern Apple USB keyboard, but that's only if you're trying to enter keycodes during startup. For that I simply hook the keyboard that came with it up to the front. I don't remember having any such issues with my G4. The other thing is F12 (I think that's right) ejects the CD. Zane From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 2 14:57:36 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:57:36 -0500 Subject: Speaking of mice & keyboards References: <43E25F26.2020500@mdrconsult.com> <012301c62837$52d2d920$72781941@game> <43E26E0A.90906@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <014101c6283b$4de8ed10$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 3:39 PM Subject: Re: Speaking of mice & keyboards > Teo Zenios wrote: > > Belkin makes an overpriced small box that converts ADB into 2 separate PS/2 > > type inputs (and I think converts apples old video plug to standard vga) > > they sell to interface with their PS2 style KVM's. They show up on ebay all > > the time, but are $20+ or more I think. > > $20 would actually be acceptable, expecially if it has a decent > vbideo converter. > > > What machine do you run A/UX on and what version of the software? > > Quadra 700 with 64MB, and version 3.1. > > A couple of years ago I bought a literal pickup-load of Mac gear and > broken VCRs just to get the original A/UX CDs and boot floppies. > *Nothing* in that $75 load worked except the A/UX software and one 1GB > SCSI drive. > > > Doc I spent $50 (mostly shipping) to get my first A/UX 3.1 media and manuals (for the aws95) from a guy in New Zealand. years later I got a new set mint in shrinkwrap from a guy close to me for free along with a mint AWS 95 free. I would be surprised that a whole truckload of Macs would be dead, not so surprised that all of them won't boot because of a dead PRAM battery (every machine I acquired needed one). http://www.kvms.com/nav/item.asp?item=1149 This is the device I was talking about, expensive new (worth a few times what the Quadra 700 would cost to replace) but can be found on ebay if you keep looking. From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 2 15:12:36 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:12:36 -0800 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building Message-ID: <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> One thing I've been concerned about for a while is what seems to be the lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack equipment anymore as I view that more of an excuse for not building. It also seems that most (not all) of the people I know that collect computers now (and used them in the 70's and early 80's) are fairly competent at working on electronics. Are kits at all desireable to build by newer entries into electronics and computers? Or existing builders? Comments? From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Feb 2 15:25:30 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:25:30 -0800 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <43E273EF.7000001@srv.net> References: <43E26D81.1030403@brothom.nl> <43E273EF.7000001@srv.net> Message-ID: <43E278CA.5000000@msm.umr.edu> Kevin Handy wrote: > Bert Thomas wrote: > >> "You can't damage hardware by software" >> half cycle read w/o delay on microdata 1600. indirect reference on certain nova models, which referenced the same location in an infinite fashion. (I think this was fixed, maybe nova people remember this) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 2 13:18:53 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 19:18:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <20060201001211.96279.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Jan 31, 6 04:12:11 pm Message-ID: > It's no news that cd-roms could operate in older > machines. I remember a friend with a Tandy 1000 > something years ago who had one hooked up (can't > remember if it was internal or external though). And > he could listen to music while he was doing > *presumably* something useful with the machine. Most older CD-ROM drives had built-in DACs and thus an audio output. You could use that to play a music CD without using any of the host computer's CPU cycles at all (the external Philips I have has play/stop/skip track controls on the front, it can be used as a simple audio CD player without connecting it to a computer). There was often an audio connector that you linked to your soundcard, but that just fed into the mixer stage of the soundcard. Again no host CPU cyclers were needed. > It would be nice to obtain a schematic of one of the > more primitive IDE cards *whistles*. And wouldn't I did trace out the schematics of the one in this machine. To be honest, it was totally trivial. A few buffers and a PAL. I would thoink you could design one by reading the IDE spec/ > artwork be nice too ;). Would an 8-bit card take the > place of a 16-bit card in an AT? Presumably yes, > albeit slower I guess. The Acculogic sIDE/16 or Most IDE drives expect a 16 bit data bus, at least for the data register. The 16 data lines from the drive are buffered and fed to the 16 data lines on the ISA slot. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 2 15:11:41 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:11:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: <43E20A0C.3070106@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Feb 2, 6 08:33:00 am Message-ID: > AFAICR, there's some scan code difference. And it's not the AT keyboard > it's similar to. It's the PS/2 keyboard. Other than the physical connector, what's the differnce between a PS/2 and a PC/AT keyboard? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 2 15:19:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:19:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: <1138891448.43e21ab8b1dee@webmail.secure-wi.com> from "mbbrutman-cctalk@brutman.com" at Feb 2, 6 06:44:08 am Message-ID: > > It would be nice to obtain a schematic of one of the > > more primitive IDE cards *whistles*. And wouldn't > > artwork be nice too ;). Would an 8-bit card take the > > place of a 16-bit card in an AT? Presumably yes, > > albeit slower I guess. The Acculogic sIDE/16 or > > something has all discrete logic, save for a pal or > > gal (or 2). > > Yes, this would be interesting. I had never realized that IDE was a superset of > ST506. Now I'm thinking of all of the old 8 bit machines I have that could use It's not. IDE and ST506 are very different interfaces. IDE ias a formatted interface. You transfer nice 8-bit bytes and 16 bit words to the drive. The drive takes care of turning them into a suitable pulse train to send ot thehead, etc. ST506 is a low-level, raw, interface. What you see on the interface connectoer is essentially the pulse stream to/from the head. It's up to the cotnroller to turn that into the user data bytes/words. The origianl PC/AT controller talked to an ST506 drive. But of course it also had a host-side interface -- it plugged into an ISA slot and appeared as a number of I/O ports to the 286 (or whatever) processor. The controller card did the translation betweenn the user bytes/words and the pulse stream on the ST506 interface connector. Now you could also split the system up in a different way. Specifically, move most of the controller over to the drive. The 'controller card' now becomes little more than an address decoder which lets the host processor talk to I/O port registers physically located in the drive. To the host, it looks the same as the old ST506 controller (you send the same bytes to the same ports to read a particular sector). Inside the drive, who knows what goes on. That's IDE. > an IDE hard disk. I've been trying to graft SCSI cards onto them, but 8 bit > SCSI cards with BIOS aren't exactly common either. You will have a lot of fun (for suitable values of fun) trying to get most old hard disk controllers or their hosts talking to IDE drives. Just because an IDE drive looks the same to the host as one particular ST506 controller doesn't mean that all ST506 controllers look the same. They don't. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 2 15:27:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:27:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery In-Reply-To: <20060202184850.A460A58138@mail.wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at Feb 2, 6 01:48:50 pm Message-ID: > > > > > > > > > "A good way to discharge a capacitor is to use a screwdriver across > > the terminals." ??? > > > Isn't it? (As long as you are not touching the metal part of the > screwdriver!) It's a good way to damage the capacitor due to the high current that flows, and it's a good way to put a nice pit in the end of the screwdriver if the capacitor is large enough/charger to a high enough voltage. -tony From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Feb 2 16:40:30 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:40:30 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060202164030.4107b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I was talking to a buddy of mine about this at lunch. He's an old ham and used to build a lot of stuff. We were noting how people don't buy their kids things like Tinker Toys or Erector sets or anything that encourages them to build things. I don't know all the reasons why but I've been noticing for years that FEW people build or repair things. I've tried to sell electonic companents and tools at the hamfests and no one is buying. I had a big box of top quality Utica tools for $3 each that I took to three hamfests and I sold ONE tool. When I was growing up MOST men repaired their own cars (at least minor repairs) but now very few people even change their own oil. I look at the modern hot roders and laugh. They hang a different exhaust tip on their car and think they have a race car! I BUILT my first car (Meyers Manx dunebuggy). I think the small size of the components deters SOME repairs/projects but I think that's only a small part of the problem. Most people are totally clueless about repairing or building ANYTHING. Joe At 01:12 PM 2/2/06 -0800, you wrote: > >One thing I've been concerned about for a while is what seems to be the >lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work >on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the >argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack >equipment anymore as I view that more of an excuse for not building. > >It also seems that most (not all) of the people I know that collect >computers now (and used them in the 70's and early 80's) are fairly >competent at working on electronics. > >Are kits at all desireable to build by newer entries into electronics >and computers? Or existing builders? > >Comments? > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 2 15:48:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:48:23 -0800 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602021348230084.5371ABAB@10.0.0.252> On 2/2/2006 at 9:19 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >ST506 is a low-level, raw, interface. What you see on the interface >connectoer is essentially the pulse stream to/from the head. It's up to >the cotnroller to turn that into the user data bytes/words. A small nit--and an itch when I hear folks talking about the "ST506 interface" on a PC. I don't think a stock PC ever talked to an ST506 for the simple reason that the ST506 lacks buffered seek. AFAIK, every PC controller shipped with BIOS that assumed buffered seek. You could reprogram most (but not all) controllers to deliver the timed(3 msec?) seek pulses that the 506 required, but it wasn't stock. We should really be talking about the "ST412 Interface", no? I think the original poster was talking about the software compatibility. While an IDE drive will respond to commands intended for an AT-style (WD1003?) controller, such is not the case for the old XT controller, which is close, but still a different animal. However, if we're talking 8 bit PCs, it doesn't really matter too much, as the INT 13 interface is carried on the controller's BIOS extension ROM--which is what you need with an XT-class system. Cheers, Chuck From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Thu Feb 2 15:48:59 2006 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:48:59 -0600 Subject: IBM Model M Keyboards (Was: IBM RS/6000) In-Reply-To: <200602021259.27303.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <43E1B608.3070604@mdrconsult.com> <200602021259.27303.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20060202214859.GA29904@RawFedDogs.net> On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 12:59:27PM -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Where would you find a Model M, you ask? Try emailing me off-list. :) Actually, I found one right under my fingertips as I was typing this reply. But, you've made me curious. I just might try e-mailing you off-list. It would be nice to have a few more Model M's around. Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX From kth at srv.net Thu Feb 2 16:02:15 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 15:02:15 -0700 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E28167.7020202@srv.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>> >>>"A good way to discharge a capacitor is to use a screwdriver across >>>the terminals." ??? >>> >>> >>> >>Isn't it? (As long as you are not touching the metal part of the >>screwdriver!) >> >> > >It's a good way to damage the capacitor due to the high current that >flows, and it's a good way to put a nice pit in the end of the >screwdriver if the capacitor is large enough/charger to a high enough >voltage. > > For a large enough capaciter, it is also a good way to weld the screwdriver to the capaciter. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Feb 2 15:48:34 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 16:48:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery In-Reply-To: <20060202184850.A460A58138@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060202184850.A460A58138@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200602022151.QAA03133@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> "A good way to discharge a capacitor is to use a screwdriver across >> the terminals." ??? > Isn't it? (As long as you are not touching the metal part of the > screwdriver!) Perhaps. If your only goal is to discharge the cap, and everything else is secondary to that, it's fine. But if you're interested in not damaging the cap, the screwdriver, your vision for the next few minutes, etc, in the process...you might want to use a bleeder resistor instead. :) At least if the voltage*capacitance product is large enough to carry significant amounts of energy. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 2 15:51:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:51:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> from "Marvin Johnston" at Feb 2, 6 01:12:36 pm Message-ID: > > > One thing I've been concerned about for a while is what seems to be the > lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work > on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the > argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack Nor do I. The larger SMD parts are perfectly easy to homebrew with, and I am quite sure _I'll_ find a way to use even BGAs as/when I have to. That said, there are plenty of pin-through-hole parts around still. Nor do I buy the argument that it's not worth homebrewing as you can buy a better unit for less. Firstly what you buy ready made is often not better than that which you could build. Secondly, there are plenty of things you can't buy. And thirdly, nothing (IMHO) compares with the feeling when one of your homebrew designs works. And what about programming? 20 years ago (or so), most people who bought a home computer learnt to program, at least in BASIC. Many went on to learn other languages. Now, I'll bet that most computer owners have never written a line of code in their lives. Even though computers are a lot more common than they were 20 years ago, I suspect the total number of amateur programmers has decreased. And yet the programming tools are now even eaier to obtain than they were 25 years ago (there are free versions of most ocmmon languages, home computers are powerful enough to run said free versions). There are still a number of people in the UK who make mechanical clocks at home. To make a clock, you can expend to spend \pounds 100 on metal, and about as much again (if not more) on the gear cutters. That assumes you already have a lathe, dividing head, etc. And the result is a worse timekeeper than any 5 quid quartz clock. Don't get me wrong. The clocks they make are beuatiful, and I would love to be able to make one (in fact, I fully intend to do so sometime). But financially it makes no sense at all, unless you consider the enjoyment and education you get by making said clock -- things that also apply to homebrewing electronics. That said, though, there are not that many model engineers or amateur clockmakers in the UK. Just as there are a few, but not that many electronics hackers. And I think one of the reasons is simple. Most kids have realised that there is no point going into science/engineering. There are no good well-paid, satisfying jobs in those areas. Well paid jobs (at least in the UK) seem to reserved for those who can kick a football or strum a guitar. And the educational system seems to be designed to remove any curiousity that a child might have (fortunately, it didn't work on me). -tony From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Feb 2 15:52:01 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 16:52:01 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> References: <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> Message-ID: <200602021652.01721.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 02 February 2006 04:12 pm, Marvin Johnston wrote: > One thing I've been concerned about for a while is what seems to be the > lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work > on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the > argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack > equipment anymore as I view that more of an excuse for not building. I sure as heck know that *my* eyes aren't what they used to be... Back around the time I closed up my shop (spring of 1992) I found that I was increasingly using a lighted magnifier for more routine tasks. These days if I want to read the numbers on a transistor or a chip I reach for a magnifying glass. It sucks. > It also seems that most (not all) of the people I know that collect > computers now (and used them in the 70's and early 80's) are fairly > competent at working on electronics. Made my living at it, for a while. When there was a market for such skills, which there doesn't seem to be any more. :-( > Are kits at all desireable to build by newer entries into electronics > and computers? Or existing builders? What kits I remember seeing any more are either way too simple, designed more as learning environments than kits, or come with major portions of it preassembled. The last one I put together was in 1978, and that was a Heathkit H11 computer -- which came with the CPU board preassembled. These days I have this massive collection of parts and I keep on salvaging more, yet the simplest circuit board seems to be so _tedious_ compared with the way I used to feel about it. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Feb 2 15:57:16 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 16:57:16 -0500 Subject: ISA bus throughput In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602021657.16243.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 02 February 2006 04:19 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > Yes, this would be interesting. I had never realized that IDE was a > > superset of ST506. Now I'm thinking of all of the old 8 bit machines I > > have that could use > > It's not. IDE and ST506 are very different interfaces. > > IDE ias a formatted interface. You transfer nice 8-bit bytes and 16 bit > words to the drive. The drive takes care of turning them into a suitable > pulse train to send ot thehead, etc. > > ST506 is a low-level, raw, interface. What you see on the interface > connectoer is essentially the pulse stream to/from the head. It's up to > the cotnroller to turn that into the user data bytes/words. > > The origianl PC/AT controller talked to an ST506 drive. But of course it > also had a host-side interface -- it plugged into an ISA slot and > appeared as a number of I/O ports to the 286 (or whatever) processor. The > controller card did the translation betweenn the user bytes/words and the > pulse stream on the ST506 interface connector. > > Now you could also split the system up in a different way. Specifically, > move most of the controller over to the drive. The 'controller card' now > becomes little more than an address decoder which lets the host processor > talk to I/O port registers physically located in the drive. To the host, > it looks the same as the old ST506 controller (you send the same bytes to > the same ports to read a particular sector). Inside the drive, who knows > what goes on. > > That's IDE. It's not the _interface_ (as in hardware) that's got parts in common, it's the command set. Which is one of the reasons we keep bumping into size limitations. <...> > Just because an IDE drive looks the same to the host as one particular ST506 > controller doesn't mean that all ST506 controllers look the same. They > don't. The way it looks to the host is exactly the point. And how different are they? The main thing I remember having to do with those early HD cards is to use the BIOS routines that were on the card (in XT-class stuff) to format the drive. AT-class stuff and later didn't have any BIOS on the cards, the MB BIOS took care of that, so there must have been a lot of it which was the same. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Feb 2 16:01:33 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:01:33 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060202164030.4107b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060202164030.4107b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200602021701.33768.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 02 February 2006 11:40 am, Joe R. wrote: > I was talking to a buddy of mine about this at lunch. He's an old ham and > used to build a lot of stuff. We were noting how people don't buy their > kids things like Tinker Toys or Erector sets or anything that encourages > them to build things. I don't know all the reasons why but I've been > noticing for years that FEW people build or repair things. I've tried to > sell electonic companents and tools at the hamfests and no one is buying. I > had a big box of top quality Utica tools for $3 each that I took to three > hamfests and I sold ONE tool. When I was growing up MOST men repaired their > own cars (at least minor repairs) but now very few people even change their > own oil. I look at the modern hot roders and laugh. They hang a different > exhaust tip on their car and think they have a race car! I BUILT my first > car (Meyers Manx dunebuggy). I think the small size of the components > deters SOME repairs/projects but I think that's only a small part of the > problem. Most people are totally clueless about repairing or building > ANYTHING. > > Joe It's a cultural thing. And for as long as I can remember those that worked with their hands were looked down on by those who didn't, and that attitude seems to have carried over into the present day, even though most of those "white collar" jobs I see are a freakin' joke, and most of the folks who hold that attitude couldn't say why they do. It also appears to be a very much urban vs. rural thing, too -- the more rural you are, the more likely you are not to have that attitude. > At 01:12 PM 2/2/06 -0800, you wrote: > >One thing I've been concerned about for a while is what seems to be the > >lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work > >on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the > >argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack > >equipment anymore as I view that more of an excuse for not building. > > > >It also seems that most (not all) of the people I know that collect > >computers now (and used them in the 70's and early 80's) are fairly > >competent at working on electronics. > > > >Are kits at all desireable to build by newer entries into electronics > >and computers? Or existing builders? > > > >Comments? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 2 16:08:47 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:08:47 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building References: <3.0.6.16.20060202164030.4107b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 11:40 AM Subject: Re: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building > I was talking to a buddy of mine about this at lunch. He's an old ham and > used to build a lot of stuff. We were noting how people don't buy their > kids things like Tinker Toys or Erector sets or anything that encourages > them to build things. I don't know all the reasons why but I've been > noticing for years that FEW people build or repair things. I've tried to > sell electonic companents and tools at the hamfests and no one is buying. I > had a big box of top quality Utica tools for $3 each that I took to three > hamfests and I sold ONE tool. When I was growing up MOST men repaired their > own cars (at least minor repairs) but now very few people even change their > own oil. I look at the modern hot roders and laugh. They hang a different > exhaust tip on their car and think they have a race car! I BUILT my first > car (Meyers Manx dunebuggy). I think the small size of the components > deters SOME repairs/projects but I think that's only a small part of the > problem. Most people are totally clueless about repairing or building > ANYTHING. > > Joe > I think its because the tools needed to tinker have started getting expensive, the schematics are hard to find, the equipment itself is so cheap and outdated so quickly to bother with, large scale integration of many circuits into proprietary hard to get chips, logic being done with software, and most important of all its just not cool to do it. People who tinker with cars these days do it by buying a new chip some engineering company put allot of effort into making, or extreme bolt on intake packages and nitrous for those who like melting engines. Most computer hacking these days just involves software and adapters that convert inputs and maybe some case modding. People used to get their shoes repaired too, when is the last time you seen somebody get their Nikes resoled? The only tools I use are analog (a decent handheld multimeter). My electronics toolbox consists of a bunch of screwdrivers, a chip puller, fluke meter, various memory chips and SIMMs, fuses, battery holders, and jumper wires. All I need it for is to figure out what is blow and swap it out with another chip (if its socketed) or replace the board if I have to. For the equipment I collect its not cost effective to buy a scope and surface mount soldering stuff to repair a $20 machine or a $5 board even if I knew how to use the equipment. Most of the people who do chip level work here used to do it for a living, have an electronics background, or work on equipment that predates surface mount large scale integration. I would think the last thing a parent wants their kids to do these days is be a commodity coder, engineer, or electronics repairman because of the low pay and offshoring. We are turning into a nation of MBAs, burger flippers, salespeople, and paper shufflers. From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Feb 2 16:08:45 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:08:45 -0500 Subject: old drives and interfaces Message-ID: <200602021708.45326.rtellason@blazenet.net> Since the subject has come up, maybe somebody can shed some light on this... I have a box around here, containing what I *think* is a WD-1000 controller card, which interfaced to my Osborne Executive through the printer/IEEE port. When I first got this box, the drive in it (a "Tulin", which I've never heard of before or since) had such bad bearings that you really didn't want to run it at all. So I stuck an ST225 in there. So far so good, I got it working by hacking away at some copy of the boot disk, which was enough to let me make the HD be drive C:, and I had it partitioned up into four chunks, giving me C:, D:, E:, and F:. A problem surfaced in trying to use that last one, though -- I can't seem to get any reasonable access to the last bit of the drive, about the last 3M or so. Am wondering if maybe write precomp (which the '225 needed IIRC) might have something to do with this? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 2 16:14:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:14:55 -0800 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <200602021652.01721.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> <200602021652.01721.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200602021414550798.5389F701@10.0.0.252> In 2/2/2006 at 4:52 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >I sure as heck know that *my* eyes aren't what they used to be... > >Back around the time I closed up my shop (spring of 1992) I found that I >was increasingly using a lighted magnifier for more routine tasks. These days >if I want to read the numbers on a transistor or a chip I reach for a >magnifying glass. It sucks. Invest in a binocular loupe (or several of them). My arsenal includes a few jewelers' loupes as well as the binocular sort. What I reall like to get my hands on is the gizmo that dentists and neurosurgeons use that clips to their glasses. Sort of a miniature telescope. The last time I priced one of these, it was several hundred dollars, however. For working on larger things, I have several sets of inexpensive reading glasses in variouis powers. Now, if someone could offer suggestions for stedying hands around these tiny widgets, I'd really be happy. CHeers, Chuck From jcwren at jcwren.com Thu Feb 2 16:16:09 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:16:09 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <200602021652.01721.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> <200602021652.01721.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <43E284A9.3080900@jcwren.com> I disagree with this quite a bit. There are plenty of projects out there people are doing. I see lots of stuff on hackaday.com, avrfreaks.com, people in the Microchip forums, homebrew CPUs, etc. There's no loss of desire at all. Sure, maybe it's not all built of TTL, but so what? TTL is slowly going away (IMHO), in favor of micros, FPGAs, and PLDs. To say the interest in building skills is waning just says to me you're not looking in the right places. --jc On Thursday 02 February 2006 04:12 pm, Marvin Johnston wrote: >One thing I've been concerned about for a while is what seems to be the lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack equipment anymore as I view that more of an excuse for not building. From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Feb 2 16:15:48 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:15:48 -0800 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1138918548.7731.33.camel@r003519> On Thu, 2006-02-02 at 21:51 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > One thing I've been concerned about for a while is what seems to be the > > lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work > > on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the > > argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack > > Nor do I. The larger SMD parts are perfectly easy to homebrew with, and I > am quite sure _I'll_ find a way to use even BGAs as/when I have to. That > said, there are plenty of pin-through-hole parts around still. Actually, I saw an article (I have to find out where it was) where I guy used an old toaster oven as a basis for soldering all sorts of surface mount components at once...ie just like the "real" assembly houses do it. > That said, though, there are not that many model engineers or amateur > clockmakers in the UK. Just as there are a few, but not that many > electronics hackers. And I think one of the reasons is simple. Most kids > have realised that there is no point going into science/engineering. > There are no good well-paid, satisfying jobs in those areas. Well paid > jobs (at least in the UK) seem to reserved for those who can kick a > football or strum a guitar. ...or (in the US atleast) become lawyers. > And the educational system seems to be > designed to remove any curiousity that a child might have (fortunately, > it didn't work on me). > I have too many (horror) stories about how the schools here fail...I won't use the list bandwidth to go into them. -- TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 2 16:20:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:20:00 -0800 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941@game> References: <3.0.6.16.20060202164030.4107b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941@game> Message-ID: <200602021420000282.538E9C69@10.0.0.252> On 2/2/2006 at 5:08 PM Teo Zenios wrote: >the last thing a parent wants their kids to do these days is be a commodity >coder, engineer, or electronics repairman because of the low pay and >offshoring. We are turning into a nation of MBAs, burger flippers, >salespeople, and paper shufflers. OT: I picked up the current issues of DDJ, Electronic Design and EETimes this morning out of the mail. The DDJ ran to a grand total of 56 pages--it's so thin that there's no spine on the binding--it's just stapled together. ED isn't much better and EET was thinner than my Sunday newspaper magazine supplement. (P.S. Bob Pease rambled on about crampons). Signs of the times? Is the computer business in the US running out of steam? Cheers, Chuck From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 2 16:25:29 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:25:29 -0800 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building Message-ID: <43E286D9.24A3D241@rain.org> A friend of mine got an article published in the September 2005 issue of QST Magazine describing how to build an 80M DF receiver and asked if I would be interested in supplying kits. The supplier of the circuit boards told me he had maybe a half dozen or so calls for the circuit board. I sold about 40 kits of which about half were ordered assembled and tested. FWIW, about half of those that ordered the unit were using it for interference tracking with the remainder using it for direction finding. Another friend of mine designed a single board computer and put it up on his website; I don't know if anyone has ordered a board or built it. I am planning on being at the Dayton Hamvention this year to sell DF equipment, and it will be *very* interesting to see what kind of a response I get. Of course, I also plan on checking out the 2000+ vendors for any classic computer stuff too :). > I was talking to a buddy of mine about this at lunch. He's an old ham and > used to build a lot of stuff. We were noting how people don't buy their > kids things like Tinker Toys or Erector sets or anything that encourages > them to build things. I don't know all the reasons why but I've been > noticing for years that FEW people build or repair things. I've tried to > Joe From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Feb 2 16:33:38 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:33:38 -0600 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <200602021652.01721.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060202160940.047bce78@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 04:52 PM 2/2/2006 -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >On Thursday 02 February 2006 04:12 pm, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > One thing I've been concerned about for a while is what seems to be the > > lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work > > on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the > > argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack > > equipment anymore as I view that more of an excuse for not building. > >I sure as heck know that *my* eyes aren't what they used to be... > >Back around the time I closed up my shop (spring of 1992) I found that I was >increasingly using a lighted magnifier for more routine tasks. These days if >I want to read the numbers on a transistor or a chip I reach for a magnifying >glass. It sucks. After 40, my eyes experienced a similar degradation. Fortunately modern circuit board assembly with surface mount is aided by a good microscope anyway, so the eye failure is not that big of a detriment. I believe that the reason why people don't seem to have as much interest in electronics today as in the past is because we a inundated with electronic devices of every conceivable kind, everywhere we look. Back in the day, I (and I believe others) used to have the desire to build a micro computer simply because the only computer access was available from some large machine at a university or similar. Also, as micro computers did slowly become available, they were very expensive and building your own was the only financial path to owning one for many people. I think that electronic kits are similar in that for most, while they may have the ability to build their own gear, the desire is at least partially driven by the cost of ownership of whatever gizmo the kit turns into. As most any gizmo is now readily available at some ridiculously cheap cost, at least as compared to an equivalent kit, the kits are not in demand. > > It also seems that most (not all) of the people I know that collect > > computers now (and used them in the 70's and early 80's) are fairly > > competent at working on electronics. > >Made my living at it, for a while. When there was a market for such skills, >which there doesn't seem to be any more. :-( There is still some market for such skills, but it is certainly dwindling. A friend of mine opened a repair shop after he retired and after experimenting with various different markets, he found his niche with industrial repairs. There are still quite a number of DEC terminals (and the like) in use in industry and they require service. As far as consumer product repair, it is often cheaper to just buy a new one and throw the old one away. Failure just gives the consumer a reason to upgrade to the latest/greatest gizmo. > > Are kits at all desireable to build by newer entries into electronics > > and computers? Or existing builders? > >What kits I remember seeing any more are either way too simple, designed >more >as learning environments than kits, or come with major portions of it >preassembled. The last one I put together was in 1978, and that was a >Heathkit H11 computer -- which came with the CPU board preassembled. > >These days I have this massive collection of parts and I keep on salvaging >more, yet the simplest circuit board seems to be so _tedious_ compared with >the way I used to feel about it. The local electronics store (we still have one amazingly, and it isn't a Radio Shack) still caries some kits. I've even been tempted to buy one a couple of times, but haven't. I keep going through the cost comparison equation in my head and have a hard time justifying paying much more for a kit than a finished product. --tom From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 2 16:33:08 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 22:33:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery In-Reply-To: <200602022151.QAA03133@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Feb 2, 6 04:48:34 pm Message-ID: > At least if the voltage*capacitance product is large enough to carry > significant amounts of energy. Make that voltage _sqyared_ * capacitance product (actually, divide it by 2 if you're using sane units). Energy stored goes up more quickly with the voltaeg than with the capacitance. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 16:32:58 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:32:58 -0500 Subject: Keyboard Converters (was Re: IBM RS/6000) In-Reply-To: References: <200602021636.IAA17354@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <43E2889A.4070400@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Mice are where I've had real problems once I switched to Mac OS X. First > I was using a semi-acceptable mouse that shipped with HP Itanium 2 > Workstations, now I'm using an IBM optical mouse (seems appropriate > since I'm using my G5 keyboard on a Thinkpad). What I really want is a > mouse like the classic Logitech mouse that shipped with most > workstations in the late 90's. I've thought about getting a PS/2-to-USB > converter to try and hook one up, but have kind of become hooked on the > scroll-wheel for my Mac. IBM has an optical mouse with three real buttons and a two-direction scrollpoint. It's inexpensive too. It's my favorite, and I won't use anything else. Peace... Sridhar From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 2 16:35:11 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:35:11 -0800 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building Message-ID: <43E2891F.16D14260@rain.org> This is good news, and I would very much like to be wrong on this! But I see it at hamfests, swapfests, etc. where people who are selling components, kits, etc. designed for the homebrew projects. The TRW swapmeet in El Segundo, CA has gone from a great source of "good stuff" to more cheap tools, computers and parts, and a lot of other things unrelated to electronics. BTW, buys there by myself and others include a lot of classic computer stuff including S-100 cards, DEC stuff, Imsai, Alpha Micro, Atari 400/800 computers, Cosmic Elf, Popular Electronics including the Jan/Feb 1975 Altair issues, and the list goes on. Now, it is rare to find anything classic computer related or the parts to build stuff with. What are the right places to look (excluding online Internet sites)? > I disagree with this quite a bit. There are plenty of projects out > there people are doing. I see lots of stuff on hackaday.com, > avrfreaks.com, people in the Microchip forums, homebrew CPUs, etc. > There's no loss of desire at all. Sure, maybe it's not all built of > TTL, but so what? TTL is slowly going away (IMHO), in favor of micros, > FPGAs, and PLDs. To say the interest in building skills is waning just > says to me you're not looking in the right places. > > --jc > > On Thursday 02 February 2006 04:12 pm, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > >One thing I've been concerned about for a while is what seems to be > the lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to > work on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the > argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack > equipment anymore as I view that more of an excuse for not building. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 2 16:36:47 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:36:47 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building References: <3.0.6.16.20060202164030.4107b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941@game> <200602021420000282.538E9C69@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <01a301c62849$274b0770$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 5:20 PM Subject: Re: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building > On 2/2/2006 at 5:08 PM Teo Zenios wrote: > > >the last thing a parent wants their kids to do these days is be a > commodity > >coder, engineer, or electronics repairman because of the low pay and > >offshoring. We are turning into a nation of MBAs, burger flippers, > >salespeople, and paper shufflers. > > OT: I picked up the current issues of DDJ, Electronic Design and EETimes > this morning out of the mail. The DDJ ran to a grand total of 56 > pages--it's so thin that there's no spine on the binding--it's just stapled > together. ED isn't much better and EET was thinner than my Sunday > newspaper magazine supplement. (P.S. Bob Pease rambled on about crampons). > > Signs of the times? Is the computer business in the US running out of > steam? > > Cheers, > Chuck > Go buy the one of each of the top 10 computer brands here in the US and list all the parts manufactured here in the US, 5 years from now do the same thing and show me the parts that were designed here in the US. All the manufacturing is done overseas mostly, now the design work is going there also. I would think the vast majority of EE's are doing installation work and not design here anymore (those still working the profession). From allain at panix.com Thu Feb 2 16:42:27 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:42:27 -0500 Subject: Mythbusters References: <43E26D81.1030403@brothom.nl> <43E273EF.7000001@srv.net> Message-ID: <08ea01c62849$f1ee7ca0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> >> "You can't damage hardware by software" some common misconceptions The larger the software company, the higher quality the software. It's impossible to write software that is completely bug free. Product CD's can only be installed on one computer. (may != can) PC's wear out*. Broadband only works with a new computer. Marketing erases genericism, as in, you can only use XYZ keyboards on a XYZ PC. A rising tide lifts all boats. John A. (* at a MTBF value much worse than reality) From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 16:42:57 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:42:57 -0500 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E28AF1.20405@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>AFAICR, there's some scan code difference. And it's not the AT keyboard >>it's similar to. It's the PS/2 keyboard. > > > Other than the physical connector, what's the differnce between a PS/2 > and a PC/AT keyboard? The logo, the copyright date, the labels, slight difference in the key colors and shape, key label font, key feel, etc. It's a completely different keyboard. IMHO, the AT version is superior. Peace... Sridhar From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Thu Feb 2 16:44:05 2006 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:44:05 -0600 Subject: IBM RS/6000 Message-ID: The best mouse/trackball I had was an Atari video arcade trackball that I got from Happ Controls and wired to the guts of a cheap PC serial mouse (optical sensors on the track ball, electronics from the mouse). This trackball measures about 6" x 6" x 2.5" and I had it in a foamcore box. Used 1" diameter arcade buttons to replace the mouse buttons. I made it as a prototype for a dozen or so that I wired up for use in exhibits at the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago with the computer games I wrote. I used the track ball for more than 10 years before I even needed to clean it. Message: 19 Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:31:24 -0600 From: Doc Shipley Subject: Re: IBM RS/6000 To: General at mdrconsult.com, "Discussion at mdrconsult.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <43E25E0C.70805 at mdrconsult.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Teo Zenios wrote: > >I have one of those Logitech marbles, they work well enough. In general I >like using Microsoft optical on anything they will pug into. The other day >I >replaced my older belkin KVM with a newer version that does serial to PS2 >mouse conversion so that my MS optical USB with PS2 adapter is connected to >the KVM and my old 486/133 DOS/Windows 3.1 machine (using the old MS mouse >driver disk) connected to the KVM with a serial cable works with it. There >is just nothing smoother then an optical mouse in my opinion, and no balls >that need cleaned (or mousepads full of cheet-os to dust off). Mmmm, Cheet-Os! You're right about the optical smoothness, which is why I like the Marble. It does need cleaning every couple of months, but it's worth it to avoid the wrist movement of a normal mouse. ObCC: And it works perfectly with RS/6000s, SGIs, NeXTstations, SPARC (with adapter), AXP, Mac, and even PeeCees! Doc From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Feb 2 16:47:05 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:47:05 GMT Subject: Realistic terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060202132609.04f98d20@mail> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060202132609.04f98d20@mail> Message-ID: <3d1118f34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <6.2.3.4.2.20060202132609.04f98d20 at mail> John Foust wrote: > http://ldopa.net/2006/01/14/glterminal/ Am I the only person here that would REALLY like to see this running on Linux? :) That is the sort of thing that would look real nice running on my laptop... which incidentally needs a new TFT (Lo! Dead pixel swarm!). Anyone got a Toshiba Satellite Pro 4600 with 14.1" TFT lying around in a scrap pile? Apparently the display is a Samsung LTN141X7-L06, but the Toshiba LTM14C433 and Chi Mei N141X202 are also rumoured to be suitable. -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA220 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G ... Divers do it deeper. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Feb 2 16:51:34 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:51:34 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> References: <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> Message-ID: <20060202225134.F0C4A8C00A4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Marvin Johnston wrote: > One thing I've been concerned about for a while is what seems to be the > lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work > on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the > argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack > equipment anymore as I view that more of an excuse for not building. > > It also seems that most (not all) of the people I know that collect > computers now (and used them in the 70's and early 80's) are fairly > competent at working on electronics. > > Are kits at all desireable to build by newer entries into electronics > and computers? Or existing builders? There are a lot of things to build that are not "computers" in the box-that-sits-on-a-desk-with-disk-storage-and-CRT-and-keyboard realm, but are interesting electronics. Lots of fun is to be had playing with microcontrollers for all sorts of purposes. Analog computers are always imminently hackable. Try building a circuit for integrating the Lorentz equations for example. Turn a knob, and you're tweaking the constants! At the anti-digital end, some of us are still building radios with tubes and coils :-). I'm not going to say that there is no computer stuff to be built, I'm just saying that many of us have been there, done that, and now choose to do other things which we find more fulfilling. Tim. From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Feb 2 16:50:01 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:50:01 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060202160940.047bce78@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20060202160940.047bce78@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <200602021750.01149.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 02 February 2006 05:33 pm, Tom Uban wrote: > I believe that the reason why people don't seem to have as much interest > in electronics today as in the past is because we a inundated with > electronic devices of every conceivable kind, everywhere we look. Back in > the day, I (and I believe others) used to have the desire to build a micro > computer simply because the only computer access was available from some > large machine at a university or similar. Also, as micro computers did > slowly become available, they were very expensive and building your own was > the only financial path to owning one for many people. I think you're probably right about this. I have had many thoughts about building computers over the years, that kept on morphing into different things as time went on, but eventually I just acquired some working hardware and started _using_ it. Which, in spite of my continuing to accumulate all sorts of hardware bits these days, is still where I end up spending most of my time. > I think that electronic kits are similar in that for most, while they may > have the ability to build their own gear, the desire is at least partially > driven by the cost of ownership of whatever gizmo the kit turns into. As > most any gizmo is now readily available at some ridiculously cheap cost, at > least as compared to an equivalent kit, the kits are not in demand. Yes. There's little or no fascination with building a radio when you can buy a radio that's cheaper than the kit... > > > It also seems that most (not all) of the people I know that collect > > > computers now (and used them in the 70's and early 80's) are fairly > > > competent at working on electronics. > > > >Made my living at it, for a while. When there was a market for such > > skills, which there doesn't seem to be any more. :-( > > There is still some market for such skills, but it is certainly dwindling. > A friend of mine opened a repair shop after he retired and after > experimenting with various different markets, he found his niche with > industrial repairs. I've done some of that, too, but the general market for such stuff around here seems to be in terms of companies having people on staff full-time. And those positions that I've applied for I haven't gotten. It does seem to me though that industrial electronics might be one of the few places left where I could apply my skillset. > There are still quite a number of DEC terminals (and the like) in use in > industry and they require service. As far as consumer product repair, it is > often cheaper to just buy a new one and throw the old one away. Often? Seems more like always to me, lately. People have no idea what it takes to support repairs, in terms of not just the place but the equipment, the parts you should have on hand, the skillset that has to be constantly honed when new equipment comes out (often!), the service manuals, and the absurdly-priced manufacturer's parts kits that some of them seem to insist that you get from them (a gimmick to dispose of excess inventory, I'm sure). > Failure just gives the consumer a reason to upgrade to the latest/greatest > gizmo. I think they do that on purpose. > > > Are kits at all desireable to build by newer entries into electronics > > > and computers? Or existing builders? > > > >What kits I remember seeing any more are either way too simple, designed > >more as learning environments than kits, or come with major portions of it > >preassembled. The last one I put together was in 1978, and that was a > >Heathkit H11 computer -- which came with the CPU board preassembled. > > > >These days I have this massive collection of parts and I keep on salvaging > >more, yet the simplest circuit board seems to be so _tedious_ compared > > with the way I used to feel about it. > > The local electronics store (we still have one amazingly, and it isn't > a Radio Shack) still caries some kits. I've even been tempted to buy one > a couple of times, but haven't. I keep going through the cost comparison > equation in my head and have a hard time justifying paying much more for > a kit than a finished product. What sort of kits are they offering? I might be tempted for those situations where just having a board is nice, as opposed to going the perfboard route... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Feb 2 16:54:01 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:54:01 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <43E284A9.3080900@jcwren.com> References: <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> <200602021652.01721.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43E284A9.3080900@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <20060202225401.796521040001@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "J.C. Wren" wrote: > TTL is slowly going away (IMHO), in favor of micros, Gees, some of us said the same thing in the early 70's :-). Tim. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Feb 2 16:58:58 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:58:58 GMT Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941@game> References: <3.0.6.16.20060202164030.4107b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941@game> Message-ID: <9d2719f34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941 at game> "Teo Zenios" wrote: > I would think > the last thing a parent wants their kids to do these days is be a commodity > coder, engineer, or electronics repairman because of the low pay and > offshoring. We are turning into a nation of MBAs, burger flippers, > salespeople, and paper shufflers. Yes, but wait until those MBAs and sales guys realise they actually need products to sell. Who's going to design their products if there are no engineers left? You can't escape death, and you can't build a business on hot air and empty promises. -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA220 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G ... Where do you find 100 talking invertebrates? The US Senate! From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Feb 2 17:05:33 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:05:33 -0600 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <200602021750.01149.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060202160940.047bce78@mail.ubanproductions.com> <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20060202160940.047bce78@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060202170308.047e9238@mail.ubanproductions.com> >Often? Seems more like always to me, lately. People have no idea what it >takes to support repairs, in terms of not just the place but the equipment, >the parts you should have on hand, the skillset that has to be constantly >honed when new equipment comes out (often!), the service manuals, and the >absurdly-priced manufacturer's parts kits that some of them seem to insist >that you get from them (a gimmick to dispose of excess inventory, I'm sure). These are all valid points. I said often because I didn't want to make a statement that I couldn't back up. Doesn't there have to be a kit somewhere which is cheaper than buying the finished product? Maybe not... :-( >What sort of kits are they offering? I might be tempted for those situations >where just having a board is nice, as opposed to going the perfboard >route... The next time I stop in I will compile a list and post it. --tom From lee at geekdot.com Thu Feb 2 17:05:55 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (lee at geekdot.com) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 00:05:55 +0100 (CET) Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building Message-ID: <1175.86.139.194.172.1138921555.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > Actually, I saw an article (I have to find out where it was) where I > guy used an old toaster oven as a basis for soldering all sorts of > surface mount components at once...ie just like the "real" assembly > houses do it. http://www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/200006/oven_art.htm Lee. From shirsch at adelphia.net Thu Feb 2 17:08:17 2006 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 18:08:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Keyboard Converters (was Re: IBM RS/6000) In-Reply-To: References: <200602021636.IAA17354@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 8:36 AM -0800 2/2/06, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > Best keyboards in the biz, baybee. It was worth finding a > > > > USB-PS/2 dobgle that really works so I can use one on my G5. > > > > > > You have it working on your G5!?!? Of course I'm still running my > > > Apple Extended II Keyboard via a USB-ADB converter :^) > > > >LOL! I did the exact same thing! > > Something tells me that this is a fairly popular configuration with long-time > Mac users. I used the keyboard that came with my G4/450 AGP for exactly 3 > days till I could get the converter. It was three of the worst days of my > life, as the original G4's shipped with that pathetic keyboard that was on the > original iMac's. I didn't even try the keyboard that came with my G5, I > simply set it aside. I do use it now, but on my work laptop, and only then > because I don't have a better USB keyboard around. > > Mice are where I've had real problems once I switched to Mac OS X. First I was > using a semi-acceptable mouse that shipped with HP Itanium 2 Workstations, now > I'm using an IBM optical mouse (seems appropriate since I'm using my G5 > keyboard on a Thinkpad). What I really want is a mouse like the classic > Logitech mouse that shipped with most workstations in the late 90's. I've > thought about getting a PS/2-to-USB converter to try and hook one up, but have > kind of become hooked on the scroll-wheel for my Mac. I never had much luck using a PS2 keyboard + USB converter on my G4 tower. Any particular brands which seem to work better than others? Any which map to the Apple / Command keys? Steve From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Feb 2 17:07:22 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 18:07:22 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <9d2719f34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060202164030.4107b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941@game> <9d2719f34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <200602021807.22419.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 02 February 2006 05:58 pm, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941 at game> > > "Teo Zenios" wrote: > > I would think > > the last thing a parent wants their kids to do these days is be a > > commodity coder, engineer, or electronics repairman because of the low > > pay and offshoring. We are turning into a nation of MBAs, burger > > flippers, salespeople, and paper shufflers. > > Yes, but wait until those MBAs and sales guys realise they actually need > products to sell. Who's going to design their products if there are no > engineers left? > > You can't escape death, and you can't build a business on hot air and empty > promises. You don't think they'll try and outsource that, too? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Feb 2 17:16:07 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:16:07 -0600 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <9d2719f34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941@game> <3.0.6.16.20060202164030.4107b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941@game> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060202170623.02454e48@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 10:58 PM 2/2/2006 +0000, you wrote: >In message <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941 at game> > "Teo Zenios" wrote: > > > I would think > > the last thing a parent wants their kids to do these days is be a commodity > > coder, engineer, or electronics repairman because of the low pay and > > offshoring. We are turning into a nation of MBAs, burger flippers, > > salespeople, and paper shufflers. > >Yes, but wait until those MBAs and sales guys realise they actually need >products to sell. Who's going to design their products if there are no >engineers left? Along these lines, I find it disconcerting that in the back of recent Circuit Cellar magazines (one of the few, if not only, mags around still targeting homebrew) there has been a company (http://www.aequus-research.com/) advertising "Outsourcing to China" of embedded engineering for $15/hour, including both HW and SW. This would put serious doubt into my choice to major as an EE/computer scientist if I were making it today. --tom From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Feb 2 17:17:13 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 18:17:13 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060202170308.047e9238@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060202160940.047bce78@mail.ubanproductions.com> <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20060202160940.047bce78@mail.ubanproductions.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20060202170308.047e9238@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <20060202231713.77C188C00AA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > >What sort of kits are they offering? I might be tempted for those situations > >where just having a board is nice, as opposed to going the perfboard > >route... I suspect you mean "PC board" :-(. Try building a radio on a breadboard! Screw down the transformers, octal sockets, etc., just like they did 50 years ago. Alternatively, a lot of really good radios are built on nothing but solid unetched PC board (as a ground plane) using "dead bug" construction. Or hacked-into-squares-of-conductor board using "Manhattan" construction. It's a true art form - and actually extremely sturdy. Tim. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Feb 2 17:20:13 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 23:20:13 GMT Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95191bf34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Nor do I. The larger SMD parts are perfectly easy to homebrew with, and I Yeah, I've done SMD soldering down to 0604 passives, SOT23 transistors, and TSSOP ICs. I've even tried soldering down the little leadless packages ADI use for their uMEMS accelerometers - not too hard, with the right tools and plenty of rosin flux. > am quite sure _I'll_ find a way to use even BGAs as/when I have to. Enamelled copper wire soldered to the balls dead-bug style? > Nor do I buy the argument that it's not worth homebrewing as you can buy > a better unit for less. Firstly what you buy ready made is often not > better than that which you could build. Secondly, there are plenty of > things you can't buy. And thirdly, nothing (IMHO) compares with the > feeling when one of your homebrew designs works. Hell yeah. > Even though computers are a lot > more common than they were 20 years ago, I suspect the total number of > amateur programmers has decreased. And yet the programming tools > are now even eaier to obtain than they were 25 years ago (there are free > versions of most ocmmon languages, home computers are powerful enough to > run said free versions). It's a bit much to expect the average Joe to learn to program when he can't even learn not to open the EXE attachments on his emails. "But it was from a friend!" / "And it takes five seconds to email back and ask 'Did you really mean to send me this? What is it?', so why didn't you do it?" FFS, if you're going to buy a computer, you might as well learn to secure it properly. There really should be a requirement for licensing of computer owners/users - if you can't prove you can secure a machine properly, you don't get to own one... > And the result is a worse > timekeeper than any 5 quid quartz clock. Don't get me wrong. The clocks > they make are beuatiful, and I would love to be able to make one (in > fact, I fully intend to do so sometime). But financially it makes no > sense at all, unless you consider the enjoyment and education you get by > making said clock -- things that also apply to homebrewing electronics. It's the beauty of the thing that's appealing though. You'll never find a clock in a shop that looks anywhere near as nice - everything you see these days is plastic, plastic and more plastic. And I wouldn't be so sure about quartz clocks being more accurate, especially the cheap ones... I'd rather tie a GPS receiver to a PIC and build a "totally accurate clock" of some description. > That said, though, there are not that many model engineers or amateur > clockmakers in the UK. Just as there are a few, but not that many > electronics hackers. And I think one of the reasons is simple. Most kids > have realised that there is no point going into science/engineering. > There are no good well-paid, satisfying jobs in those areas. Well paid > jobs (at least in the UK) seem to reserved for those who can kick a > football or strum a guitar. And the educational system seems to be > designed to remove any curiousity that a child might have (fortunately, > it didn't work on me). Me neither. I pissed my science teacher off no end by continually asking "So if X does Y, how does Y work?" type questions. Got hauled in front of the headmaster a few times for that, too. Still didn't stop me. :) -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G ... Profanity, the language computerists know. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Feb 2 17:20:07 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 23:20:07 GMT Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <1138918548.7731.33.camel@r003519> References: <1138918548.7731.33.camel@r003519> Message-ID: <88171bf34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <1138918548.7731.33.camel at r003519> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Actually, I saw an article (I have to find out where it was) where I guy > used an old toaster oven as a basis for soldering all sorts of surface > mount components at once...ie just like the "real" assembly houses do > it. www.seattlerobotics.org -> Encoder The guy you're thinking about is (IIRC) Kenneth Maxon. > I have too many (horror) stories about how the schools here fail...I > won't use the list bandwidth to go into them. Try the UK ones if you want to see failure... Chemistry (in practical form at least) is basically gone, too unsafe - replaced almost entirely by simulations and theory. The few good science teachers that are left don't get to teach properly, for fear of some parent suing them because little Jimmy burned his finger on a Bunsen burner. Compensation culture is evil. "Everything is someone else's fault". Parents these days are far too overprotective... Kids don't get to play out for fear of paedophiles and murderers roaming the streets (two words for you: "highly unlikely" - two more: "media exaggeraton"). So they sit inside playing on their Playstations and Gameboys and eating microwave meals. Why the hell does nobody cook anything from scratch anymore? The more I observe the world, the more I realise it's gone to the dogs. -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G ... Reactance: your imaginary friend. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 2 17:20:59 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 18:20:59 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building References: <3.0.6.16.20060202164030.4107b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941@game> <9d2719f34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <01cb01c6284f$59513720$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 5:58 PM Subject: Re: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building > In message <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941 at game> > "Teo Zenios" wrote: > > > I would think > > the last thing a parent wants their kids to do these days is be a commodity > > coder, engineer, or electronics repairman because of the low pay and > > offshoring. We are turning into a nation of MBAs, burger flippers, > > salespeople, and paper shufflers. > > Yes, but wait until those MBAs and sales guys realise they actually need > products to sell. Who's going to design their products if there are no > engineers left? > > You can't escape death, and you can't build a business on hot air and empty > promises. > > They do have products to sell, they just happen to be designed and made in a different country buy engineers who might have been educated and trained here and then went back to their home country. The only thing the US and Europe had going for it was inventing industries and products because of the R&D they used to conduct. Now that R&D is being done overseas by foreigners you can see our economies are going down the tubes both in the short term outsourcing of manufacturing and in the long term brain drain associated with doing R&D in foreign locations with local engineers. It is just a matter of time before China cashes in the US dollars it holds and buys up US tech companies and ships them overseas along with their patents. Then the MBA's who helped start this offshoring mess will be out of a job also. From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Feb 2 17:21:59 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 18:21:59 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <20060202231713.77C188C00AA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060202160940.047bce78@mail.ubanproductions.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20060202170308.047e9238@mail.ubanproductions.com> <20060202231713.77C188C00AA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200602021821.59622.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 02 February 2006 06:17 pm, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > >What sort of kits are they offering? I might be tempted for those > > > situations where just having a board is nice, as opposed to going the > > > perfboard route... > > I suspect you mean "PC board" :-(. Yeah. > Try building a radio on a breadboard! Screw down the transformers, octal > sockets, etc., just like they did 50 years ago. Hey, I *have* some octal sockets, anyhow, and even some of those that are for the older tubes, too. No tubes, though. > Alternatively, a lot of really good radios are built on nothing but > solid unetched PC board (as a ground plane) using "dead bug" construction. Point-to-point with a ground plane. I haven't tried it yet. > Or hacked-into-squares-of-conductor board using "Manhattan" construction. > It's a true art form - and actually extremely sturdy. Yeah, but not too terribly repairable. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Feb 2 17:24:35 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 18:24:35 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <95191bf34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <95191bf34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <200602021824.35669.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 02 February 2006 06:20 pm, Philip Pemberton wrote: > It's the beauty of the thing that's appealing though. You'll never find a > clock in a shop that looks anywhere near as nice - everything you see these > days is plastic, plastic and more plastic. Yeah, and some of those plastics degrade over time, too. Get brittle, and fall apart... I knew a guy who used to collect and refurbish old radios, but he didn't bother with anything that had plastic cases. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 2 17:28:48 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:28:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: from "Robert Feldman" at Feb 02, 2006 04:44:05 PM Message-ID: <200602022328.k12NSmUb012208@onyx.spiritone.com> > The best mouse/trackball I had was an Atari video arcade trackball that I > got from Happ Controls and wired to the guts of a cheap PC serial mouse > (optical sensors on the track ball, electronics from the mouse). This > trackball measures about 6" x 6" x 2.5" and I had it in a foamcore box. Used > 1" diameter arcade buttons to replace the mouse buttons. I made it as a > prototype for a dozen or so that I wired up for use in exhibits at the Field > Museum of Natural History in Chicago with the computer games I wrote. I used > the track ball for more than 10 years before I even needed to clean it. Sounds very non-ergonomic, but if that's the trackball used in the Missle Command games, that would be the best trackball I've ever seen! Zane From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 2 17:30:43 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 23:30:43 +0000 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E29623.7090404@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > That said, though, there are not that many model engineers or amateur > clockmakers in the UK. Just as there are a few, but not that many > electronics hackers. And I think one of the reasons is simple. Most kids > have realised that there is no point going into science/engineering. > There are no good well-paid, satisfying jobs in those areas. Well paid > jobs (at least in the UK) seem to reserved for those who can kick a > football or strum a guitar. And the educational system seems to be > designed to remove any curiousity that a child might have (fortunately, > it didn't work on me). You know, I think those sorts of skills will come back, at least in Europe. Landfill taxes are set to go through the roof in the next few decades, and there will likely be all sorts of Government incentives to persuade consumers to repair and recycle equipment rather than simply dumping it as they do now - hopefully there'll be a lot more call for skilled repair people as a result. Not sure what the situation is like in the US though - after all there's a lot more space, and so far there doesn't seem to be much concern for using what we have rather than simply making more (I realise that probably isn't true for inhabitants of this list :) cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 17:28:02 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:28:02 -0700 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:40:30. <3.0.6.16.20060202164030.4107b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: In article <3.0.6.16.20060202164030.4107b960 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com>, "Joe R." writes: > I was talking to a buddy of mine about this at lunch. He's an old ham and > used to build a lot of stuff. We were noting how people don't buy their > kids things like Tinker Toys or Erector sets or anything that encourages > them to build things. [...] It depends on the person and the area. For instance, robot competitions with kit robots are very popular these days. I know people that work on cars with custom mods and whatnot, but for special applications like 4-wheeling in southern Utah. Me, I was never a motor head. A car is a tool to me, not a device I feel like learning about. My computers are the opposite. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 2 17:32:31 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:32:31 -0800 Subject: Apple USB keyboards (was Keyboard Converters (was Re: IBM RS/6000)) Message-ID: I never had much luck using a PS2 keyboard + USB converter on my G4 tower. Any particular brands which seem to work better than others? Any which map to the Apple / Command keys? -- Every keyboard and mouse Apple shipped since Steve came back are crap, esp the puck 'cripple-mice'. My wrists hurt so bad after using one when we first released them that I refused to use them, or any of their descendants. The travel is too short, and the key shafts bind at normal typing speed. Find a macally ikey and a logitech m-bj69 roller mouse. The macally has they key layout of the adb extended kb and has the same key pressure and travel. I've been picking them up fairly cheap in surplus places and on eBay as people dump their iMacs and early G4s. If you're using OSX, the roller mouse does what it's supposed to. What pisses me off is we had a prototype ADB roller mouse that did all the stuff you can do now with the Logitech 15 years ago, including programmable detents on the roller (it actually had a little motor inside..) but couldn't convince people it was useful. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 2 17:38:24 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 23:38:24 +0000 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <9d2719f34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060202164030.4107b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941@game> <9d2719f34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <43E297F0.1070503@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941 at game> > "Teo Zenios" wrote: > >> I would think >> the last thing a parent wants their kids to do these days is be a commodity >> coder, engineer, or electronics repairman because of the low pay and >> offshoring. We are turning into a nation of MBAs, burger flippers, >> salespeople, and paper shufflers. > > Yes, but wait until those MBAs and sales guys realise they actually need > products to sell. Who's going to design their products if there are no > engineers left? You don't need an engineer to design the current crop of products - you just need someone who can push a mouse around on a screen, without any real understanding of how the bits they're bolting together actually work :-( The sad truth is, the consumer has no idea how shit the final product is because they've never actually known any different :( cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 2 17:47:33 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:47:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <43E26D81.1030403@brothom.nl> References: <43E26D81.1030403@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <20060202154646.G69212@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Bert Thomas wrote: > "You can't damage hardware by software" ever try cycling through ALL of the possible modes of IBM MDA? From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Feb 2 17:49:37 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 15:49:37 -0800 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <000a01c6282e$c6c454c0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000a01c6282e$c6c454c0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <43E29A91.3020601@mindspring.com> Actually I was at Apple and in the same group (ATG, Advanced Technology Group) at that time. I think you are being a lot more generous to the 'Smartifacts' project being 'real' than is my recollection. It was an interesting RESEARCH effort, but it never even got close to product status. Smartifacts was never even close to a competitor to Newton (or any kind of PDA) as a product. Don North Apple, 1982-1997 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Nope, other stuff. One guy was Harry Vertelney who worked on a project > called Smartifacts. He went into interactive TV and now he works on DARPA > stuff at Sun. The other guy was Paul Mercer who worked on a project called > Swatch. He founded Pixo which made the iPod interface and now he's doing a > startup doing OS design for phones. > > Commercial plug: the relevant parts of their stories are on my PDA history > page at http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm .... > > -Evan > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Don North > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 1:45 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Mythbusters > > He's probably alluding to 'General Magic'. See > http://www.byte.com/art/9402/sec3/art1.htm and > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Magic > > Richard wrote: > >> In article <001b01c62823$fb72d0d0$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, >> "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" >> > writes: > >> >> >>> [...] The top engineers from those projects all left Apple in >>> frustration when the inferior Newton was picked as the one to >>> commercialize. >>> >>> >> Where did they go? >> >> > > > From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 17:50:51 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:50:51 -0700 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:35:11 -0800. <43E2891F.16D14260@rain.org> Message-ID: In article <43E2891F.16D14260 at rain.org>, Marvin Johnston writes: > [...] The TRW > swapmeet in El Segundo, CA has gone from a great source of "good stuff" > [...] BTW, buys there by myself and others include a > lot of classic computer stuff including S-100 cards, DEC stuff, Imsai, > Alpha Micro, Atari 400/800 computers, Cosmic Elf, Popular Electronics > including the Jan/Feb 1975 Altair issues, and the list goes on. Now, it > is rare to find anything classic computer related or the parts to build > stuff with. I think this is why people need to revise their advice about where to find classic computing gear. I keep getting told "go to a hamfest or swapfest", but they don't even exist in my area and I don't think that there would be much stuff like that in these places if they did exist in my area. This advice seems to be coming more from old memories than "I saw a PDP-8 down at the hamfest just last week" sort of story. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Feb 2 17:52:09 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 23:52:09 -0000 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> Message-ID: <004e01c62853$af8bd010$5b01a8c0@pc1> Marvin Johnston wrote: > One thing I've been concerned about for a while is what seems to be > the lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire > to work on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. Because you can buy X for much less than it would cost you to build X, in fact you can probably buy X for much less than the cost of building the subset of X that you actually want. It must be very hard making a living wage fixing TVs etc. these days. You can still make money designing electronics (at least we employ some such people in the UK so I assume they earn at least enough to eat :-)) but I'm not sure that this will continue to be the case for much longer. The same goes for software engineers like me. There's nothing that we do that could not in principle be done almost anywhere else in the world - and there are plenty of places where it is cheaper to hire workers than in the UK. I'm sure that argument must be pretty obvious to most people (perhaps not to teenagers, but certainly their parents must know and the vibes will filter through). > BUY the argument that components are so small now that nobody can > build or hack equipment anymore as I view that more of an excuse for > not building. I do not buy that argument either. Most people never even open the box up so the size of the components is not something they know about! For that matter, most people do not fix their washing machines or dishwashers or vacuum cleaners ... and none of those (that I've had to play with) have small components in them. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Feb 2 18:07:08 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 00:07:08 -0000 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005201c62855$c7751c70$5b01a8c0@pc1> Tony Duell wrote: > Nor do I buy the argument that it's not worth homebrewing as you can > buy a better unit for less. Firstly what you buy ready made is often > not better than that which you could build. For suitable values of "you". I don't think my teenagers could put together a radio (without quite a bit of guidance) and I bet it would not support RDS :-) I wasn't much better at their age either. > Secondly, there are > plenty of things you can't buy. Like what? Please restrict yourself to something a kid would want to build. I'll even allow you to aim for something I would have wanted to build as a teenager _before_ I wandered into electronics. > And thirdly, nothing (IMHO) compares > with the feeling when one of your homebrew designs works. Agreed. And that probably applies to almost any building activity. Even getting my first flat-pack cupboard to stand upright many years ago was a source of some satisfaction :-) But I certainly didn't start out thinking that I would enjoy the feeling of successfully building something. For me it was mostly because I had a couple of friends who were into electronics plus I enjoyed anything scientific anyway. > And what about programming? 20 years ago (or so), most people who > bought a home computer learnt to program, at least in BASIC. Many > went on to learn other languages. Now, I'll bet that most computer > owners have never written a line of code in their lives. Even though > computers are a lot more common than they were 20 years ago, I > suspect the total number of amateur programmers has decreased. And > yet the programming tools > are now even eaier to obtain than they were 25 years ago (there are > free versions of most ocmmon languages, home computers are powerful > enough to run said free versions). But most of the computers sold today are tools (to get on the net, to play games, to write letters etc.). I guess gaming played a part too even back then, but you were much more likely to be exposed to programming if you had to type in a listing from a magazine before you could blast your aliens! > That said, though, there are not that many model engineers or amateur > clockmakers in the UK. Just as there are a few, but not that many > electronics hackers. And I think one of the reasons is simple. Most > kids have realised that there is no point going into > science/engineering. There are no good well-paid, satisfying jobs in > those areas. There are still model engineering clubs around. There's one in north Oxford, they even display their home-built trains on a purpose built track. Last time I was there (which was a few years ago now) there were even some younger members (late teenagers, early twenties). And there are a few of us at work who can pick up a soldering iron without leaving burn marks on skin. Not that any of us are actually _paid_ to do that though. Job satisfaction is still to be had in those areas (I enjoy my job, for example), the problem is convincing the anyone that it's true and will remain true for long enough for them to get started on the career ladder. > Well paid jobs (at least in the UK) seem to reserved > for those who can kick a football or strum a guitar. I won't argue that some of them are not well paid, but a fair few of them don't seem to be able to _consistently_ kick a ball well :-) Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 2 18:10:14 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 19:10:14 -0500 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <43E29A91.3020601@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <002601c62856$35db49a0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Don, thanks for speaking up. Let's continue offline, I will email you. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don North Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 6:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mythbusters Actually I was at Apple and in the same group (ATG, Advanced Technology Group) at that time. I think you are being a lot more generous to the 'Smartifacts' project being 'real' than is my recollection. It was an interesting RESEARCH effort, but it never even got close to product status. Smartifacts was never even close to a competitor to Newton (or any kind of PDA) as a product. Don North Apple, 1982-1997 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Nope, other stuff. One guy was Harry Vertelney who worked on a > project called Smartifacts. He went into interactive TV and now he > works on DARPA stuff at Sun. The other guy was Paul Mercer who worked > on a project called Swatch. He founded Pixo which made the iPod > interface and now he's doing a startup doing OS design for phones. > > Commercial plug: the relevant parts of their stories are on my PDA > history page at http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm .... > > -Evan > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Don North > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 1:45 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Mythbusters > > He's probably alluding to 'General Magic'. See > http://www.byte.com/art/9402/sec3/art1.htm and > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Magic > > Richard wrote: > >> In article <001b01c62823$fb72d0d0$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, >> "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" >> > writes: > >> >> >>> [...] The top engineers from those projects all left Apple in >>> frustration when the inferior Newton was picked as the one to >>> commercialize. >>> >>> >> Where did they go? >> >> > > > From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 18:06:09 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:06:09 -0700 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:51:34 -0500. <20060202225134.F0C4A8C00A4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: In article <20060202225134.F0C4A8C00A4 at mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) writes: > There are a lot of things to build that are not "computers" in the > box-that-sits-on-a-desk-with-disk-storage-and-CRT-and-keyboard realm, > but are interesting electronics. > > Lots of fun is to be had playing with microcontrollers for all sorts of > purposes. > > Analog computers are always imminently hackable. Try building a circuit > for integrating the Lorentz equations for example. Turn a knob, and you're > tweaking the constants! Don't forget things like building your own earthquake detector or weather station. I have a kit book for these sorts of projects. They are fun, cool to integrate with a uP for data recording/analysis and are easy to build with low-cost components and electromechanical gear. My interest in this sort of electronics is in making weird electrokinetic sculpture type machines. Survival Research Laboratories, anyone? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 18:34:56 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:34:56 -0700 Subject: what bus is this for? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:52:27 -0500. <200602021352.27756.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: In article <200602021352.27756.rtellason at blazenet.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > [...] 44 pins > really isn't quite enough for a bus, unfortunately, not if you want all > address and data lines running through it and enough control lines... Assuming your data paths are parallel. What if you used high speed serial data paths? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 18:29:18 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:29:18 -0700 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 20:53:25 +0000. <11c909eb0602021253j3bf88d87w@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <11c909eb0602021253j3bf88d87w at mail.gmail.com>, Pete Edwards writes: > On 02/02/06, Bert Thomas wrote: > > > > "You can't damage hardware by software" > > > > > This may be a false memory, but wasn't there a POKE on CBM Pets that would > fry the video hardware? Yes, its referred to as the "Killer Poke". There was also something you could do on early IBM PC graphics adapaters where you could fry the monitor by writing a zero value to a frequency register, IIRC. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 18:33:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:33:40 -0700 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 19:48:10 +0100. <002e01c62829$3acea830$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: Does this mean we can expect to see lots of discarded telegram gear now? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 2 18:51:01 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 19:51:01 -0500 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP References: Message-ID: <020e01c6285b$eb242f70$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 7:33 PM Subject: Re: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP > > Does this mean we can expect to see lots of discarded telegram gear now? They should be on the same rack with the handheld TV's that will become useless when we go all digital. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 2 19:15:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:15:31 -0800 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602021715310910.542F4ED2@10.0.0.252> On 2/2/2006 at 5:29 PM Richard wrote: >Yes, its referred to as the "Killer Poke". There was also something >you could do on early IBM PC graphics adapaters where you could fry >the monitor by writing a zero value to a frequency register, IIRC. All you really had to do to fry the MDA on a PC was to program the horizontal frequency a few KHz too high. The display would keep sync, but eventually the HOT would get smoked. I fried a couple of HOTs while working on SIMGA--fortunately, the distributor for the monitors was about 6 blocks away and they had an ample supply of replacement parts. But heck, that isn't dramatic. The display just goes dark. I want a Star Trek-type "ERROR ER ROR MUST RE EVALUATE" type of smoke and sparks type of software failure ending in an explosion of thermonuclear proportions... Cheers, Chuck From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 2 19:28:05 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 20:28:05 -0500 Subject: what bus is this for? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002b01c62861$15fae220$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>> what bus is this for? The #38 uptown to the Bronx. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 7:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: what bus is this for? In article <200602021352.27756.rtellason at blazenet.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > [...] 44 pins > really isn't quite enough for a bus, unfortunately, not if you want > all address and data lines running through it and enough control lines... Assuming your data paths are parallel. What if you used high speed serial data paths? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 2 19:31:43 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 20:31:43 -0500 Subject: what bus is this for? References: <002b01c62861$15fae220$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <022001c62861$975ab200$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 8:28 PM Subject: RE: what bus is this for? > >>>> what bus is this for? > > The #38 uptown to the Bronx. > I was tempted to say the short yellow one. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 2 19:39:38 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 01:39:38 +0000 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <020e01c6285b$eb242f70$72781941@game> References: <020e01c6285b$eb242f70$72781941@game> Message-ID: <43E2B45A.1060105@yahoo.co.uk> Teo Zenios wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 7:33 PM > Subject: Re: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP > > >> Does this mean we can expect to see lots of discarded telegram gear now? > > They should be on the same rack with the handheld TV's that will become > useless when we go all digital. And the same deal with radios... Great, an increase of channels with worse reception and programming quality than analogue - all in the name of progress :( Grrr! From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 19:42:32 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 17:42:32 -0800 Subject: Harris View-writer terminal seen Message-ID: Saw a new Harris View-writer terminal FS at the Longview WA Goodwill. Three pieces, the base, keyboard and monitor. The keyboard seems never used. Early 1990s I think. The monitor is small, looks like it has a 20 line by 80 character screen. I think it is a serial terminal but would have to check again. If there is any interest contact me off list. I am going back through Longview next Monday or Tuesday. Haven't seen many terminals in recent years. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 2 19:43:09 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 20:43:09 -0500 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP References: <020e01c6285b$eb242f70$72781941@game> <43E2B45A.1060105@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <023101c62863$306b9cb0$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 8:39 PM Subject: Re: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP > Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Richard" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 7:33 PM > > Subject: Re: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP > > > > > >> Does this mean we can expect to see lots of discarded telegram gear now? > > > > They should be on the same rack with the handheld TV's that will become > > useless when we go all digital. > > And the same deal with radios... > > Great, an increase of channels with worse reception and programming quality > than analogue - all in the name of progress :( Grrr! > Is radio going digital only? I thought the TV band was enough for everyone to play in once we go digital. From jcwren at jcwren.com Thu Feb 2 19:42:37 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 20:42:37 -0500 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <43E2B45A.1060105@yahoo.co.uk> References: <020e01c6285b$eb242f70$72781941@game> <43E2B45A.1060105@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43E2B50D.7000800@jcwren.com> Just like digital cellphones. We all know how much it easier it is to hear someone in a marginal area on digital, right? Why, rather than just a fade out or a burst of static, we get a burst of encoded noise, and a dropped call. Yea, that's progress! --jc Jules Richardson wrote: > Teo Zenios wrote: >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 7:33 PM >> Subject: Re: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP >> >> >>> Does this mean we can expect to see lots of discarded telegram gear >>> now? >> >> They should be on the same rack with the handheld TV's that will become >> useless when we go all digital. > > And the same deal with radios... > > Great, an increase of channels with worse reception and programming > quality than analogue - all in the name of progress :( Grrr! > > From brian at quarterbyte.com Thu Feb 2 19:47:53 2006 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:47:53 -0800 Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance Message-ID: <43E245C9.26379.8E316330@brian.quarterbyte.com> Hi Folks, As many of you know, the venerable Mike Quinn Electronics in San Leandro, CA (down by the Oakland Airport) closed last Saturday with virtually no advance notice. If you're in the San Francisco Bay Area, you know Mike Quinn is the one of the very last of the nitty gritty electronics salvage shops left, with an emphasis on gritty. I stopped by today, and mentioned to Maurice, the owner, that a lot of people would have liked to have had one last shot at a visit. So, he has extented an invitation to y'all to visit next week, Tuesday through Friday February 7-10, 2006, during normal business hours, for one last shopping spree. He is trying to find a buyer for the stock in the store. This is almost certainly the last chance to visit. If you can, it's worth doing whatever you have to do to make the pilgrimage. Buy some stuff to thank Maurice for keeping it going all this time. There are zillions of connectors and components, heaps of transformers and power supplies, scads of cables and keyboards and monitors and other PC junk, a jet fighter console or two, a couple of early 80's HP desktop computers (the ones with built-in BASIC, can't recall the model numbers), lots of relays, and much more, all arranged in an archaeologically interesting and un-seismically-safe way. If you need it, they have it, and they might even be able to find it. Mike Quinn Electronics 401 McCormick Street (at the corner of Adams and McCormick) San Leandro, CA 94577 Brian From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 2 19:50:49 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 20:50:49 -0500 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP References: <020e01c6285b$eb242f70$72781941@game> <43E2B45A.1060105@yahoo.co.uk> <43E2B50D.7000800@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <023c01c62864$452178e0$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "J.C. Wren" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 8:42 PM Subject: Re: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP > Just like digital cellphones. We all know how much it easier it is > to hear someone in a marginal area on digital, right? Why, rather than > just a fade out or a burst of static, we get a burst of encoded noise, > and a dropped call. Yea, that's progress! > > --jc > Do you have any idea how crystal clear analog cell phones are with the rest of the world using digital? Up until last year when I retired my Nokia 100 I was getting crystal clear reception all over. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 20:09:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 19:09:50 -0700 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:15:31 -0800. <200602021715310910.542F4ED2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200602021715310910.542F4ED2 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > All you really had to do to fry the MDA on a PC was to program the > horizontal frequency a few KHz too high. I thought what killed it was setting the horizontal frequency to zero. :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From josefcub at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 20:15:40 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 20:15:40 -0600 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <200602021715310910.542F4ED2@10.0.0.252> References: <200602021715310910.542F4ED2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <9e2403920602021815u6ace786bw388449ec1e8de5c1@mail.gmail.com> It's not a killer POKE, but... In the mid-80s, my roommate owned an Apple IIe. He lived in an out-of-the-way apartment complex in Austin, TX, right underneath the complex's power transformer block. Well, he was typing on the Apple IIe, and a neighbor decided to leave the complex. C-A-T-A-L-O-G-- At the same instant that the roommate hit ENTER, the car managed to back into the power transformer. There was a loud explosion outside, and inside a smaller one was accompanied by (as he described it) "the floppy drive flying right by my head and into the wall"! The accompanying surge blew out every electronic device in the complex that was directly attached to an outlet. Ironically enough, the Apple IIe (sans unfortunate disk drive) survived. It had a Kensington System Saver installed... According to the roommate, the System Saver saved itself... The spike was shunted to the power supply, which shunted it to the motherboard, which shunted it to the disk drive. Having nowhere to shunt the spike, the disk drive saved the computer by commiting suicide. The last part I had no faith in, until uncovering his Apple IIe in a store-room a few years ago. There was the system saver, the IIe, and two disk drives... The first ("Drive 2") was perfectly functional, if dirty... The second ("Drive 1") didn't work. On disassembly, a large scorched hole winked out from a place on the analog board that once housed a major IC. After swapping the analog board I still use his old drive, and his old IIe with system saver, to this day. Does that fit the description of "and sparks type of software failure ending in an explosion"? Granted, it was an organic software failure... My $0.02, Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Feb 2 20:16:48 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:16:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance In-Reply-To: <43E245C9.26379.8E316330@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: > As many of you know, the venerable Mike Quinn Electronics in San > Leandro, CA (down by the Oakland Airport) closed last Saturday with > virtually no advance notice. If you're in the San Francisco Bay Area, > you know Mike Quinn is the one of the very last of the nitty gritty > electronics salvage shops left, with an emphasis on gritty. Another one goes. I can understand why - unless you live in the middle of nowhere with basically zero overhead (think Fair or Nebraska Surplus), you just can not drum up the business. As much as I like the idea of opening a retail outlet for my junk, I know it would be suicide. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Feb 2 20:18:03 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:18:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <200602021824.35669.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: > I knew a guy who used to collect and refurbish old radios, but he didn't > bother with anything that had plastic cases. Probably because the plastic used on old radios is amongst the worst ever made. No fault of theirs, of course - plastic back then and plastic now are very different animals. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Feb 2 20:19:33 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:19:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <43E284A9.3080900@jcwren.com> Message-ID: > TTL is slowly going away (IMHO), in favor of micros, > FPGAs, and PLDs. I think it is more like making a beeline towards the exit, rather than slowly. It started many years ago. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Feb 2 20:24:44 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 21:24:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Common items you passed up that turned rare when you wanted them In-Reply-To: <200602020923320289.527F2AA5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > CAY-46077, part of an RBM-4 installation. The service records were kept on > a sheet of paper attached to the inside of the top access lid. Made by > Westinghouse. Nice provenance. The RBM-4 was used by the Marine Corps as an advance medium power radio station for things like beach landings. The transmitter is a TBW-4, and together they make an MM-4, the complete set. I would bet that only ten or so MMs saw use in any landing, perhaps even less. Your radio probably handled some VERY important traffic. More info offlist if you want. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 2 20:12:21 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 20:12:21 -0600 Subject: Realistic terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <3d1118f34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060202132609.04f98d20@mail> <3d1118f34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060202201115.04e458b8@mail> At 04:47 PM 2/2/2006, Philip Pemberton wrote: >Am I the only person here that would REALLY like to see this running on >Linux? :) Emulations won't be adequate until they recreate the sounds of the floppies and disk drives and paper tape and Bell 103... - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 2 20:36:01 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 20:36:01 -0600 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <004e01c62853$af8bd010$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> <004e01c62853$af8bd010$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060202202345.04e454e0@mail> At 05:52 PM 2/2/2006, a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: >It must be very hard making a living wage fixing TVs etc. these days. I had my $500 Sony TV repaired the old fashion way last summer. For $200 total or so, out of warranty, a guy from a big TV/appliance regional chain drove 40 minutes, debugged which transistor was flakey, then made the return trip with the replacement and resoldered it right there in my living room. Fairly old school, maybe 55 or so. But looking inside the TV, it was clear there weren't that many non-IC non-daughterboard parts. My problem was relatively simple; the TV wouldn't turn on reliably. But so few things are repaired these days. I know the IT people at several nearby school systems. Regional consortiums (called CESA in WI) once repaired their small electronic equipment, but now they're gone and now they're stuck. Where to go to repair a laser printer? An overhead projector? It was the CESA that once provided the dial-up DEC access that I used in middle school and high school, circa '77-81. The writing is on the wall for so many TVs to be replaced by purely digital devices. Not all, but many. Look at the average Joe and Jane who see the Media Edition bundles for $2K or so at Best Buy - the salesdroid tells them they can load 90 DVDs or 200 CDs to the hard drive or get movies off the net, they lust over the big flat panel, and the lightbulb goes on over their head. - John From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Feb 2 21:03:16 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:03:16 -0600 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <200602021415.GAA12298@floodgap.com> References: <200602021415.GAA12298@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <43E2C7F4.1050809@oldskool.org> Goddammit, I always wanted to send/receive a telegram before I died. Too late!! Cameron Kaiser wrote: > http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060201/sc_space/eraendswesternunionstopssendingt > elegrams > > STOP > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Feb 2 21:04:13 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:04:13 -0600 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <43E2B45A.1060105@yahoo.co.uk> References: <020e01c6285b$eb242f70$72781941@game> <43E2B45A.1060105@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43E2C82D.2020201@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > Great, an increase of channels with worse reception and programming > quality than analogue - all in the name of progress :( Grrr! TV, or radio? Radio, no idea, but digital TV I welcome with open arms. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Feb 2 21:07:58 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:07:58 -0600 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060202164030.4107b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060202164030.4107b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43E2C90E.9050206@oldskool.org> Joe R. wrote: > Most people are totally clueless about repairing or building > ANYTHING. Not sure if that's a shame or not. For example, I am one of those schleps who pay someone to "change my oil" -- this is because my time is extremely valuable. Money, I can scrape up; time, I can't. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Feb 2 21:10:59 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:10:59 -0600 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E2C9C3.3000906@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: > Maybe we should come up with a list of computing myths and submit them > to mythbusters? I bet the old hands around here know quite a few! They've actually done a few. I recall the CDROM label high-speed shatter myth. People swear by it, but they couldn't reproduce it under normal circumstances. They did however cause me to pee my pants laughing by "seeing what happens when they increase the RPM to 36000". It didn't just shatter, it disintegrated :-D -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Feb 2 21:32:00 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:32:00 -0600 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <43E26D81.1030403@brothom.nl> References: <43E26D81.1030403@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <43E2CEB0.2000703@oldskool.org> Bert Thomas wrote: > "You can't damage hardware by software" That is for sure. In my teens, I had a friend who got the IBM convertable (the luggable one with the monochrome monitor) from a Computerland. He was screwing around with POKE in basic and poke'd a value somewhere into CGA-land, saw some pretty squiggles for about 3 seconds, then >poof< and the smell of ozone. Went back to Computerland, but they told him that there was no way that could have happened and they weren't going to repair it. So my friend, with salesman watching with one eye from across the room, walks over to another one on display, takes the diskette out, boots into BASIC, writes a 1-line program, and >poof< ozone and no more monitor. Salesman grew extremely irate, got the attention of the manager, who said they'd honor the warranty if the kid would stop doing that. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Feb 2 21:41:07 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:41:07 -0600 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <08ea01c62849$f1ee7ca0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <43E26D81.1030403@brothom.nl> <43E273EF.7000001@srv.net> <08ea01c62849$f1ee7ca0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <43E2D0D3.3040003@oldskool.org> John Allain wrote: > Broadband only works with a new computer. ...however, I can see how this myth was created. My father ran on a 486/66 with modem from 1995-2001. In 2001 he got cable modem broadband, but his 486/66 was so slow that it couldn't process complex web pages much quicker than it already was, so he saw no actual speed benefit. So he went back to the modem, at which point I almost lost it ("How can you *want* to go *slower*?!") Later he upgraded to a Pentium 3 @ 450MHz, and could finally perceive the modem as a bottleneck. OT: Ironically, two years later, I did the same thing. Through a telephone conversation mix-up, I agreed to reserve and purchase a Yamaha snowblower -- and when I got there, I had reserved the wrong one. What I thought was going to be a $600 18- or 24-inch blower was actually a $1300 36-inch semi-industrial model. I was coerced into buying it because renigging on the reservation meant I would be charged $50 because these things were in demand in the middle of winter. So I bought it to avoid the fee, took it home, opened the box, took one look at it and knew I could never use it for my tiny driveway without being embarrased (it wouldn't even fit in my garage with both cars), and proceeded to box it up and return it. On that day, a snowstorm began. As I'm returning this monster snowblower, I get a goofy look from the kid helping me; when I inquire, he says, "I've just never seen anyone return a snowblower in the middle of a snow storm!". -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Feb 2 21:46:44 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:46:44 -0500 Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:47:53 PST." <43E245C9.26379.8E316330@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <200602030346.k133ki3P027224@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Brian Knittel" wrote: ... >As many of you know, the venerable Mike Quinn Electronics in San >Leandro, CA (down by the Oakland Airport) closed last Saturday with hmmm... as a kid I flew u-control planes in Pleasanton as a kid with someone named Mike Quinn. wonder if it's the same guy :-) I think he ran the club. he might have been from Dublin, however. He had some cool planes. And a very nice guy. -brad From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Feb 2 21:55:10 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 22:55:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <43E2C82D.2020201@oldskool.org> Message-ID: > TV, or radio? Radio, no idea, but digital TV I welcome with open arms. I as well. If digital TV is an upgrade like digital cable, I am all for it. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Feb 2 22:00:30 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:00:30 -0600 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <08ea01c62849$f1ee7ca0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <43E26D81.1030403@brothom.nl> <43E273EF.7000001@srv.net> <08ea01c62849$f1ee7ca0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <43E2D55E.3020003@mdrconsult.com> John Allain wrote: > Broadband only works with a new computer. Hell, even Time Warner's mouth-breathing contract technicians believe this one. I built a 90MHz PC firewall/NAT box for a friend a couple of years ago because he wanted it in before he got the cable modem, and the technician made him bypass it and attach his faster main system to do the installation. Michiel said the guy kept pointing at the system requirements on the software CD and telling him that "you can't set this up without Windows 98 or better". Although I'll grant that TW's Windows software might *need* a petahurtz computer to run right.... And we're NOT going to discuss AOL Broadband. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Feb 2 22:02:43 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:02:43 -0600 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E2D5E3.6090002@mdrconsult.com> William Donzelli wrote: >>TV, or radio? Radio, no idea, but digital TV I welcome with open arms. > > > I as well. If digital TV is an upgrade like digital cable, I am all for > it. I dunno about an upgade, but it's surely different. Instead of snow you get pixellated. Doc From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Feb 2 22:08:45 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 23:08:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <43E2D5E3.6090002@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: > I dunno about an upgade, but it's surely different. Instead of snow > you get pixellated. I will take a little pixellation over a bunch of snow, any day. Some of the digital cable systems are fairly picky about what coax cable and connectors are used - it can make a difference. When a system is properly cabled up, one gets very little pixellation (except, of course, if the downlink is having issues). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 2 22:18:56 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:18:56 -0600 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: References: <43E2C82D.2020201@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060202221656.0455c628@mail> At 09:55 PM 2/2/2006, William Donzelli wrote: >> TV, or radio? Radio, no idea, but digital TV I welcome with open arms. >I as well. If digital TV is an upgrade like digital cable, I am all for it. Digital off-air TV is better than digital cable. Digital cable gets re-MPEG-compressed as the cable company sees fit; but the off-air is consistently higher quality at least in terms of the signal - but of course you're only able to watch major networks and PBS. - John From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Feb 2 22:23:00 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 22:23:00 -0600 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP References: <43E2C82D.2020201@oldskool.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20060202221656.0455c628@mail> Message-ID: <001b01c62879$8526e370$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> SEMI OT? From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Feb 2 22:31:26 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 22:31:26 -0600 Subject: Computer Mythbusters Message-ID: I just busted a recent myth. . . connected my KZQSA up to a RRD42 and a IBM 0661 Winchester - worked just fine booting, mounting, etc under VMS 7.2. Slow, but functional. KZQSA supports more than one device and works with HDDs From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Feb 2 22:38:08 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 22:38:08 -0600 Subject: Looking for DEC ISE drive sleds Message-ID: <0ea08463bf484a1fb48c31c28ce1c23f@valleyimplants.com> I'm trying to get my VAX 4200 running, but the ISEs seem to be hard to come by (even tried the TK70 sled, it's wired for SCSI. grrr.) My goal is (at this point) wire up a HSD05-AA to a DSSI sled and bring out the resultant SCSI bus to drives for a nice single-chassis solution, but I need a sled for mechanical attachment and to bring the signals from the backplane non-destructively. Does anyone here have DSSI wired ISEs for the BA400 series VAXen that they would be interested in selling? with or without drives (I'd use a RF if it came available). Thanks for the help on the VAXstation drive sled- I do have the metal drive plate, but whoever stripped the drives took the drive "mushrooms" with them (and trashed the SCSI cable as well, but it's passable). From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Feb 2 22:39:37 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:39:37 -0600 Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E2DE89.2070408@mdrconsult.com> Richard wrote: > Do you particularly care what graphics they are running? Or do you > just take 'em with whatever they have. At some point I'd like to get > one of these with a nice 3D graphics option installed. When that time > comes, I'd like to know what's commonly in them as far as graphics > options are concerned. http://www-03.ibm.com/servers/intellistation/power/285/index.html ;) Seriously, prior to the 7043-150, a GXT800 is a good, reasonably fast 3D option. The GXT550 and GXT500 are OK, but a PITA to administer. For the 7043-150 and later, a GXT2000P is about minimum for "nice 3D". The GXT130P is ironically usually more expensive on the used market, and it sucks mightily for 3D. It's effectively a Matrox G200 PCI with DMA disabled. I run a GXT3000P in my 7043-260, and it's about as good as I need. Fast 2D, decent 3D, and can be had for less than $75USD. The GXT4500, GXT6500, etc, are stupid expensive. I teach AIX classes some, and my boss worked for IBM for many years, so we have "friends" on the Austin IBM campus. I once got to play Quake3 on an 8-way p690 with 16GB RAM. It was.... Ehhh. I'm not much of a gamer. But the brag factor was not to be passed up. Doc From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Feb 2 22:44:24 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 20:44:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <001b01c62879$8526e370$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> from Jay West at "Feb 2, 6 10:23:00 pm" Message-ID: <200602030444.UAA09148@floodgap.com> > SEMI OT? DEFINITELY NOT COMPUTER BUT FIGURED WAS CLASSIC THEREFORE SEMI STOP OR SHOULD I STOP er, STOP? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If a seagull flies over the sea, what flies over the bay? ------------------ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Feb 2 22:47:31 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:47:31 -0600 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <43E2D5E3.6090002@mdrconsult.com> References: <43E2D5E3.6090002@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43E2E063.2020808@oldskool.org> Doc Shipley wrote: > I dunno about an upgade, but it's surely different. Instead of snow > you get pixellated. In the demos I witnessed, you get black or frozen instead of snow. Doesn't matter, I'll still take it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Feb 2 22:56:25 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:56:25 -0600 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <001b01c62879$8526e370$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> References: <43E2C82D.2020201@oldskool.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20060202221656.0455c628@mail> <001b01c62879$8526e370$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Message-ID: <43E2E279.5040103@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > SEMI OT? Ruh roh. Daddy's home. 8-) Doc From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 2 23:10:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:10:04 -0800 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602022110040080.550605AC@10.0.0.252> On 2/2/2006 at 10:55 PM William Donzelli wrote: >> TV, or radio? Radio, no idea, but digital TV I welcome with open arms. What we really need are some new digital screenwriters. My wife and I have decided we'll let our 30-year old Sony go black rather than spend bucks to watch commercials on HDTV. We barely watch anything now, but it seems to keep the dogs entertained. OTOH, virtually 100% of our radio listening is off the net. Got an FM modulator hooked up to the box that I use for a server, so I can pick it up on any set in the house. Some very fine stuff out there--most of it from outside of the US. But then, the big attraction for cable was that there were no commercials. I'm sure net radio will get "discovered" and we'll be stuck with the usual garbage selling everything from cars to impotence remedies. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 2 23:11:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:11:37 -0800 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <43E2C9C3.3000906@oldskool.org> References: <43E2C9C3.3000906@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200602022111370698.5507735A@10.0.0.252> On 2/2/2006 at 9:10 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Richard wrote: >> Maybe we should come up with a list of computing myths and submit them >> to mythbusters? I bet the old hands around here know quite a few! That slide-out thingie on my PC is a cup holder. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Feb 2 23:12:22 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 23:12:22 -0600 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <200602022110040080.550605AC@10.0.0.252> References: <200602022110040080.550605AC@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43E2E636.2080900@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > What we really need are some new digital screenwriters. My wife and I have > decided we'll let our 30-year old Sony go black rather than spend bucks to > watch commercials on HDTV. We barely watch anything now, but it seems to > keep the dogs entertained. One word: Netflix. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 2 23:29:12 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:29:12 -0800 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602022129120237.55178A7B@10.0.0.252> On 2/2/2006 at 9:18 PM William Donzelli wrote: >Probably because the plastic used on old radios is amongst the worst ever >made. No fault of theirs, of course - plastic back then and plastic now >are very different animals. Your comment sent me to the bathroom vanity, where, in a bottom drawer, my wife has an old transistor radio with leather case and with a slightly cracked case back. On the front is "ALL TRANSISTOR" on the back is "NT-6B Nippon Electric Co., Ltd. JAPAN". Does anyone collect old Japanese transistor radios? This one still works, but probably doesn't put out more than about 50 mw of sound. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 2 23:31:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:31:57 -0800 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602022131570631.551A1086@10.0.0.252> On 2/2/2006 at 7:09 PM Richard wrote: >> All you really had to do to fry the MDA on a PC was to program the >> horizontal frequency a few KHz too high. > >I thought what killed it was setting the horizontal frequency to zero. Nah, think about it. That would be equivalent to unplugging the thing, which doesn't hurt at all. The failure with the higher-than-allowed frequency is almost always a short in the HV secondary. Cheers, Chuck From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Feb 3 00:38:55 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 07:38:55 +0100 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E2FA7F.9080301@bluewin.ch> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> One thing I've been concerned about for a while is what seems to be the >> lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work >> on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the >> argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack > > Nor do I. The larger SMD parts are perfectly easy to homebrew with, and I > am quite sure _I'll_ find a way to use even BGAs as/when I have to. That > said, there are plenty of pin-through-hole parts around still. I most certainly believe that newer devices are problematic. Older SMD is doable, newer stuff is getting very hard. One 432 pin BGA FPGA MIGHT be doable in the converted toaster, but what is the successrate going to be if you need say 4 or 5 BGAs in your design ? I wanted to construct a efficient LED lighting system for my bike. Turns out all these white led driver IC ic s are in MLP or TDFN packages.... Not even a SOT8 variant available. > things you can't buy. And thirdly, nothing (IMHO) compares with the > feeling when one of your homebrew designs works. That, of course, is very true. > There are no good well-paid, satisfying jobs in those areas. You probably look in the wrong places. I know a UK based electronics designer (ic designer, not self-employed), who makes 50K pounds a year. Sounds pretty decent to me.... One reason has to be that her skillset does NOT include knowing how to use TTL. In general, for those listreaders with fear of the future of technics in Europe or the US (and I am also one of those engineers whose job will end up in Shanghai): There are examples of very successful, small, Europe-based companies being run by tinkerers. My favorite ( sorry, very OT, not electronics based )is www.velomobiel.nl They (3 people) design and build their products themselves, in expensive Europe, are already fully booked until the end of 2009 and make a decent living from it. It is all about being inventive and having the right product and quality. I certainly enjoy my Mango..... Jos Dreesen From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Feb 3 00:52:27 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 01:52:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <08ea01c62849$f1ee7ca0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <43E26D81.1030403@brothom.nl> <43E273EF.7000001@srv.net> <08ea01c62849$f1ee7ca0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200602030655.BAA11994@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > some common misconceptions ... > It's impossible to write software that is completely bug free. This is a misconception? Or are you quibbling by not saying "of nontrivial size" or some such? If you really think it is a misconception and not based on such a quibble, what is your basis for thinking so? > PC's wear out*. > (* at a MTBF value much worse than reality) Actually, they do, provided you define "failure" so as to include "failure to meet user expectation", that being the predominant failure mode in end-user PCs these days. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Feb 3 00:56:23 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 01:56:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <95191bf34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <95191bf34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <200602030659.BAA12017@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > FFS, if you're going to buy a computer, you might as well learn to > secure it properly. There really should be a requirement for > licensing of computer owners/users - if you can't prove you can > secure a machine properly, you don't get to own one... Except, where are you going to find license examiners competent to evaluate whether someone can secure a machine properly? I would be totally astonished to find them doing anything but Windows and maybe Macintoshes, and here of all places knows that's not all computers are. Also, minor quibble - I have no problem with incompetent idiots owning cokmputers, any more than I do with incompetent drivers owning cars. It's only when they connect to the net - or want to take them on the public roads - that there's any reason for the State to get involved. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From Useddec at aol.com Fri Feb 3 01:20:12 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 02:20:12 EST Subject: More Tek and some Data Products field service spares kits Message-ID: <1ef.4b2c2954.31145e2c@aol.com> In addition to the 4014 kit, I have found Tek 4611, 4631, and GMA125, and Data Products B300/600, LB615, the DEC LP27. If you have any interest, please contact me directly. Thanks, Paul From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 3 01:33:41 2006 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 23:33:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Intellec 4 front panel Message-ID: <20060203073341.10049.qmail@web50514.mail.yahoo.com> If anyone has a good photo or diagram of an Intellec 4 front panel where one can read all of the labels for the switches and LEDs, I'd really appreciate receiving it. I can't find anything adequate via a Google search as the few photos I can find are all far too small. Thanks, Bill __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From spc at conman.org Fri Feb 3 01:59:07 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 02:59:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: PS/2 keyboards on Apple Macs Message-ID: <20060203075908.8041673029@linus.area51.conman.org> The Great Zane H. Healy was quoted as saying: > > One of these days I need to pick one of those up to experiment with. Though > how on earth do you get the extra Apple keys on an IBM keyboard? and The Great Steven N. Hirsch once said: > > I never had much luck using a PS2 keyboard + USB converter on my G4 tower. > Any particular brands which seem to work better than others? Any which > map to the Apple / Command keys? I use a PS/2 keyboard on my Mac mini (and my girlfriend uses a PS/2 keybaord on *her* Mac mini---we're both snobs about our keyboards). We both have a PS/2 to USB converter, and I installed DoubleCommand [1], which lets you remap the keyboard (I converted the Alt key to the Macintosh Command key). I figure this is on topic as it allows one to use on-topic hardware (PS/2 keyboards) with new equipment. -spc (Haven't had any problems with the keyboard at all ... ) [1] http://doublecommand.sourceforge.net/ From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Feb 3 02:37:56 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 03:37:56 -0500 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <43E2C7F4.1050809@oldskool.org> References: <200602021415.GAA12298@floodgap.com> <43E2C7F4.1050809@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20060203083757.1A78BBA486C@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Goddammit, I always wanted to send/receive a telegram before I died. > Too late!! Well, if I had, it would've been a Nobel Prize. To quote Prof. Farnsworth, it doesn't matter which one, they all pay the same! Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Feb 3 02:39:33 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 03:39:33 -0500 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <43E2C82D.2020201@oldskool.org> References: <020e01c6285b$eb242f70$72781941@game> <43E2B45A.1060105@yahoo.co.uk> <43E2C82D.2020201@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20060203083933.8A8C5BA486C@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > Great, an increase of channels with worse reception and programming > > quality than analogue - all in the name of progress :( Grrr! > > TV, or radio? Radio, no idea, but digital TV I welcome with open arms. My house has no cable or satellite access; I look forward to throwing away all the TV's when NTSC broadcasts are gone! I should've ditched the idiot box years ago! Tim. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Feb 3 03:48:39 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:48:39 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <43E2C90E.9050206@oldskool.org> References: <3.0.6.16.20060202164030.4107b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <43E2C90E.9050206@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <50037.195.212.29.75.1138960119.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > Joe R. wrote: >> Most people are totally clueless about repairing or building >> ANYTHING. > > Not sure if that's a shame or not. For example, I am one of those > schleps who pay someone to "change my oil" -- this is because my time is > extremely valuable. Money, I can scrape up; time, I can't. Offtopic, but... I always take the time to change the oil in my cars myself. Why? Because it takes ten minutes and I know that it has the right kind of good quality oil and filters. Since all three cars have very different requirements, (fully synthetic ?30-per-gallon stuff for the XM, 20W50 thick goop for the CX and 10W40 for the AX, and genuine Purflux filters which are the right part but don't come with a Citro?n sticker on the box and therefore are 1/4 the price). I know it's a bit arrogant, but I take the "if you want a thing done properly, do it yourself" attitude to pretty much all my work. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Feb 3 04:00:42 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:00:42 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Realistic terminal emulator In-Reply-To: <3d1118f34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060202132609.04f98d20@mail> <3d1118f34d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <38656.195.212.29.75.1138960842.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > In message <6.2.3.4.2.20060202132609.04f98d20 at mail> > John Foust wrote: > >> http://ldopa.net/2006/01/14/glterminal/ > > Am I the only person here that would REALLY like to see this running on > Linux? :) me too! Think I'll create a bitmap of the font in my CIT-101 terminals. How does the Apple II emulator screensaver work? Would that be a good starting point? Gordon. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Feb 3 04:57:56 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 11:57:56 +0100 Subject: RK611 schematics Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2674@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> The subject line does not cover this reply, but I think it is good to keep the reply in this thread. I ran the 5 diagnostics (ZR6A - ZR6E) for the RK611 controller, and let each diagnostic run for 2 passes. They all reported no errors. So, time to connect the RK07 drive. Then I ran ZR6H, the first diagnostic for controller -and- a drive. After some 12 minutes I got a print out of the controller registers, (as I had before ...), but this time I looked a bit better at the data and went through the meaning of all bits. In RKCS1 bit 15 CERR was set, this is the Combined Error flag, and you must look at the other bits to find the reason. Then I found that the BSE, Bad Sector Error bit was set ...! I wondered "is the pack I'm using good?", and mounted an other pack. To cut a long story short: I am now booting the 11/34 from DM0: !!! Again, I learned a lot about the hardware, but more important: - do not assume the worst, the problem is often simple. - if the system gives you data, have a *very* good look at it. thanks, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 06:07:49 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 01:07:49 +1300 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <20060202231713.77C188C00AA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> <5.2.0.9.0.20060202160940.047bce78@mail.ubanproductions.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20060202170308.047e9238@mail.ubanproductions.com> <20060202231713.77C188C00AA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On 2/3/06, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I suspect you mean "PC board" :-(. Try building a radio on a breadboard! > Screw down the transformers, octal sockets, etc., just like they did 50 > years ago. Two years ago, I built a COSMAC Elf right out of the pages of the 1977-1978 Popular Electronics articles, on perfboard, down to the 1861 'Pixie' chip. The most modern facet of my implementation was that I couldn't find a 74L00 for the clock divider, so I happen to have a 1970s TTL part in there at the moment. Some of those old projects can be hard to find parts for (especially the RTL-logic-based projects from the early 1970s), but there's plenty of material to work from there. -ethan From jgessling at yahoo.com Fri Feb 3 08:53:49 2006 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 06:53:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1980's computer magazines available In-Reply-To: <001b01c62879$8526e370$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Message-ID: <20060203145349.40860.qmail@web31909.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A friend of mine has cleaned out his garage and given me these magazines to distrubute. It's a heavy box full but we can arrange something (I'm in the San Francisco Bay area). I'd like to trade for something, I really want the manual for Heathkit 3400 Microprocessor trainer, but will consider most anything calculator related as well. Here's the list: PC Computing Mar 1990 Personal Computing April 1989 Micro Computing August 1983, January 1983 InCider (appli II) January 1986 Creative Computing April 1983 PCM (Tandy) May 1990 Popular Computing June 1983, March 1982 PC Magazine Sept 30, 1986, March 10, 1987 Run (Commodore) June 1985 Compute! 1983 - June, July, Aug, Sep, Oct, Nov 1984 - Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr. May, Jun, JUly, Aug, Sep, Oct, Dec Regards, Jim __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Feb 3 09:51:40 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 09:51:40 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <200602021414550798.5389F701@10.0.0.252> References: <200602021652.01721.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43E275C4.462826FE@rain.org> <200602021652.01721.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060203095140.3fbfd6f6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:14 PM 2/2/06 -0800, Chuck wrote: > > >Now, if someone could offer suggestions for stedying hands around these >tiny widgets, I'd really be happy. Beer! Joe (I only drink to steady my nerves. Sometimes I'm so steady that I don't move for days!) > >CHeers, >Chuck > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Feb 3 10:28:58 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 10:28:58 Subject: TWO! HP IPCs on e-bay! Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060203102858.44c722ae@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Item number: 8760228477 Item number: 8760034787 From rcini at optonline.net Fri Feb 3 10:05:38 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 11:05:38 -0500 Subject: Ithaca Audio IA-1050 EPROM card manual needed Message-ID: <004901c628db$ad003a60$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I just found on of these boards in a box stuff but I don't have the manual for it. Does anyone have a PDF they can point me to? Searching the usual manual archives produced nothing. Of course, I'm most interested in the configuration pages from the manual. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 3 10:41:07 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 16:41:07 +0000 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <43E2C82D.2020201@oldskool.org> References: <020e01c6285b$eb242f70$72781941@game> <43E2B45A.1060105@yahoo.co.uk> <43E2C82D.2020201@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43E387A3.5000908@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Great, an increase of channels with worse reception and programming >> quality than analogue - all in the name of progress :( Grrr! > > TV, or radio? Radio, no idea, but digital TV I welcome with open arms. Both. I can't really comment on what either is like in the US (except to say that the times when I have been in the States I've been amazed at how bad TV picture quality is - possibly that's due to being used to better vertical resolution in Europe). Experience of digital TV (Satellite or cable) or digital radio in the UK though has been that they compress the data so much in order to provide more channels that the resulting picture/audio is far worse than can be achieved with a good analogue TV/radio with a decent aerial setup. Not to mention that said analogue setups seem to cope far better during periods of extreme atmospherics - digital services on the other hand seem to either break up or stop working altogether. There are of course issues of programme quality too (which seems to affect digital TV far more than radio) - as soon as it becomes easy for a service provider to deliver lots of low-bitrate digital channels rather than a few analogue ones, the quality of actual content goes through the floor because they can't be bothered to keep standards up. In the cases where there *are* good shows, they end up being repeated endlessly, and it's only when you stop and think that you realise there are only a few hours of really good content per month out of tens/hundreds of channels. Now paying nothing for all those channels and *only* paying per-programme for what you watch would be nice - but even then only if the provider can deliver at an equal or superior picture to analogue (otherwise I may as well just go to the movies or rent a DVD). There seems to be a common misconception in society that digital services are automagically better than analogue ones - but that's only true if the people providing those services make a commitment to keep standards up. :-) cheers Jules From fryers at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 11:01:30 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:01:30 +0000 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <43E387A3.5000908@yahoo.co.uk> References: <020e01c6285b$eb242f70$72781941@game> <43E2B45A.1060105@yahoo.co.uk> <43E2C82D.2020201@oldskool.org> <43E387A3.5000908@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: All, On 2/3/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Great, an increase of channels with worse reception and programming > >> quality than analogue - all in the name of progress :( Grrr! > > > > TV, or radio? Radio, no idea, but digital TV I welcome with open arms. > > Both. > > I can't really comment on what either is like in the US (except to say that > the times when I have been in the States I've been amazed at how bad TV > picture quality is - possibly that's due to being used to better vertical > resolution in Europe). Never Twice Same Colour, or is that National Television Standards Committee? :) [...] > :-) Being in the UK I tend to agree, and after seeing Australian cable content, it is not much better. I seem to gather that the total TV quality content is constant, it just gets distributed between a larger number of channels! The house in which I rent a room does not have a TV in any of the communal areas and I don't own a TV. so I can say that I don't have easy TV access. The only programs I am remotely missing are Mythbusters and Scrapheap Challenge. Since moving, for the first time in the last 10 years, I am actually reading more books that I am buying and starting to work through my todo list! Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Feb 3 11:07:39 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:07:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <001b01c62879$8526e370$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Message-ID: > SEMI OT? OK, it is OT now. When the thread started it was relatively OnT. Western Union had it all and could have ruled the datacom/internet world...but now they just transfer money. What a way to drop the ball. I would bet the only Telegrams sent in the past 10 years were for the Nobel prizes. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Feb 3 11:12:03 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 12:12:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <200602022129120237.55178A7B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > Your comment sent me to the bathroom vanity, where, in a bottom drawer, my > wife has an old transistor radio with leather case and with a slightly > cracked case back. On the front is "ALL TRANSISTOR" on the back is "NT-6B > Nippon Electric Co., Ltd. JAPAN". Does anyone collect old Japanese > transistor radios? This one still works, but probably doesn't put out more > than about 50 mw of sound. Discrete transistors are no fun in radios. They are only fun in computers. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From mmaginnis at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 11:33:13 2006 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:33:13 -0700 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941@game> References: <3.0.6.16.20060202164030.4107b960@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941@game> Message-ID: On 2/2/06, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe R." > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 11:40 AM > Subject: Re: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building > > > > I was talking to a buddy of mine about this at lunch. He's an old ham > and > > used to build a lot of stuff. We were noting how people don't buy their > > kids things like Tinker Toys or Erector sets or anything that encourages > > them to build things. I don't know all the reasons why but I've been > > noticing for years that FEW people build or repair things. I've tried to > > sell electonic companents and tools at the hamfests and no one is buying. > I > > had a big box of top quality Utica tools for $3 each that I took to three > > hamfests and I sold ONE tool. When I was growing up MOST men repaired > their > > own cars (at least minor repairs) but now very few people even change > their > > own oil. I look at the modern hot roders and laugh. They hang a different > > exhaust tip on their car and think they have a race car! I BUILT my first > > car (Meyers Manx dunebuggy). I think the small size of the components > > deters SOME repairs/projects but I think that's only a small part of the > > problem. Most people are totally clueless about repairing or building > > ANYTHING. > > > > Joe > > > > I think its because the tools needed to tinker have started getting > expensive, the schematics are hard to find, the equipment itself is so cheap > and outdated so quickly to bother with, large scale integration of many > circuits into proprietary hard to get chips, logic being done with software, > and most important of all its just not cool to do it. People who tinker with > cars these days do it by buying a new chip some engineering company put > allot of effort into making, or extreme bolt on intake packages and nitrous > for those who like melting engines. Most computer hacking these days just > involves software and adapters that convert inputs and maybe some case > modding. People used to get their shoes repaired too, when is the last time > you seen somebody get their Nikes resoled? > > The only tools I use are analog (a decent handheld multimeter). My > electronics toolbox consists of a bunch of screwdrivers, a chip puller, > fluke meter, various memory chips and SIMMs, fuses, battery holders, and > jumper wires. All I need it for is to figure out what is blow and swap it > out with another chip (if its socketed) or replace the board if I have to. > For the equipment I collect its not cost effective to buy a scope and > surface mount soldering stuff to repair a $20 machine or a $5 board even if > I knew how to use the equipment. Most of the people who do chip level work > here used to do it for a living, have an electronics background, or work on > equipment that predates surface mount large scale integration. I would think > the last thing a parent wants their kids to do these days is be a commodity > coder, engineer, or electronics repairman because of the low pay and > offshoring. We are turning into a nation of MBAs, burger flippers, > salespeople, and paper shufflers. > > > Case modding is now considered hacking? Blasphemy... - Mike From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Feb 3 11:40:23 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:40:23 -0800 Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance In-Reply-To: References: <43E245C9.26379.8E316330@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: On 2/2/06, William Donzelli wrote: > As many of you know, the venerable Mike Quinn Electronics in San > Leandro, CA (down by the Oakland Airport) closed last Saturday with > virtually no advance notice. If you're in the San Francisco Bay Area, > you know Mike Quinn is the one of the very last of the nitty gritty > electronics salvage shops left, with an emphasis on gritty. Damn. I made it a point to buy something every time I went in there just to keep some cash flowing. It was one of the last places you could get things for reasonable prices. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 12:07:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 10:07:19 -0800 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602031007190228.57CD9D6F@10.0.0.252> On 2/3/2006 at 12:07 PM William Donzelli wrote: >I would bet the only Telegrams sent in the past 10 years were for the >Nobel prizes. Now it'll have to be done by email. I can just imagine the phishing: "Dear William Donzelli, On behalf of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences..." --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 3 12:14:08 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 11:14:08 -0700 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 02 Feb 2006 23:12:22 -0600. <43E2E636.2080900@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <43E2E636.2080900 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > What we really need are some new digital screenwriters. My wife and I have > > decided we'll let our 30-year old Sony go black rather than spend bucks to > > watch commercials on HDTV. We barely watch anything now, but it seems to > > keep the dogs entertained. > > One word: Netflix. One word: BitTorrent :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 3 12:05:22 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 11:05:22 -0700 Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 03 Feb 2006 09:40:23 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Eric J Korpela writes: > On 2/2/06, William Donzelli wrote: > > As many of you know, the venerable Mike Quinn Electronics in San > > Leandro, CA (down by the Oakland Airport) closed last Saturday with > > virtually no advance notice. If you're in the San Francisco Bay Area, > > you know Mike Quinn is the one of the very last of the nitty gritty > > electronics salvage shops left, with an emphasis on gritty. > > Damn. I made it a point to buy something every time I went in there > just to keep some cash flowing. It was one of the last places you > could get things for reasonable prices. For those of us that are within road-trip distance, but not within casual driving distance, can you give us an idea of what sort of classic computing gear we might find there? I'm willing to take a trip for specific whole items but not for just parts. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From us21090 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 3 12:20:27 2006 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 10:20:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Best computer history museums in the US? Message-ID: <20060203182027.46179.qmail@web51109.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Bill, Two suggestions: Check out Evan Koblentz's list of museums: http://www.snarc.net/c-places.php Also, There's a pretty cool Historical Electronics Museum near Baltimore-Washington International Airport that has a broad range of gear and exhibits: www.hem-usa.org . You can see on their site, that many of the exhibits are Defense-related. They have different areas: Fundamentals Gallery Communications Gallery Early Radar Gallery Cold War Radar Gallery Modern Radar Gallery Countermeasures Gallery Under Seas Gallery Electro-optical Gallery Space Sensor Gallery My kids love it. We also use their facility for our yearly Robot Fest. Nice folks to work with. Scott -------------------- I've heard that the Computer History Museum in Mountain View CA is a good one. Any comments? If one had to choose only one (pre-PC) computer history museum to visit in the US, would that be the one to choose? Please provide leads to any other good computer museums in the US that have good hardware collections. I'm interested in pre-PC computer history only. The history of IC technology development also interests me and I'd enjoy hearing about any US museums/exhibits which focus on that topic. Thanks, Bill --------------------------------- Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 3 12:21:05 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 11:21:05 -0700 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 04 Feb 2006 01:07:49 +1300. Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > On 2/3/06, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > I suspect you mean "PC board" :-(. Try building a radio on a breadboard! > > Screw down the transformers, octal sockets, etc., just like they did 50 > > years ago. > > Two years ago, I built a COSMAC Elf right out of the pages of the > 1977-1978 Popular Electronics articles, on perfboard, down to the 1861 > 'Pixie' chip. The most modern facet of my implementation was that I > couldn't find a 74L00 for the clock divider, so I happen to have a > 1970s TTL part in there at the moment. > > Some of those old projects can be hard to find parts for (especially > the RTL-logic-based projects from the early 1970s), but there's plenty > of material to work from there. > > -ethan > Is the Popular Electronis article scanned online? This sounds kinda cool! And a nice way to get a little experience without damaging anything hard to find. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Feb 3 03:17:01 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 09:17:01 +0000 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Feb 2006 20:43:09 EST." <023101c62863$306b9cb0$72781941@game> Message-ID: <200602030917.JAA31614@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jules Richardson said: > Is radio going digital only? I thought the TV band was enough for everyone > to play in once we go digital. > Here in the UK it is, eventually. MW&LW AM will remain (for the moment, I notice a couple of digital stations already) but VHF/FM is due to be phased out except for local community broadcasting. After 2010, I think. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Feb 3 03:07:11 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 09:07:11 +0000 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 02 Feb 2006 17:50:01 EST." <200602021750.01149.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200602030907.JAA31600@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Roy J. Tellason said: > On Thursday 02 February 2006 05:33 pm, Tom Uban wrote: > > I think that electronic kits are similar in that for most, while they may > > have the ability to build their own gear, the desire is at least partially > > driven by the cost of ownership of whatever gizmo the kit turns into. As > > most any gizmo is now readily available at some ridiculously cheap cost, at > > least as compared to an equivalent kit, the kits are not in demand. > > Yes. There's little or no fascination with building a radio when you can buy > a radio that's cheaper than the kit... Sometimes what you want is simply not available ready built, or the kit one is better/cheaper than ready-made. See: http://www.elecraft.com/ or http://www.ten-tec.com/ for some American kits. The radio kit market is doing quite well atm. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 12:34:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 10:34:01 -0800 Subject: OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602031034010833.57E6119C@10.0.0.252> On 2/3/2006 at 11:14 AM Richard wrote: >> One word: Netflix. > >One word: BitTorrent :-) WAY OT: Give me a break! Hollywood screenwriters can't even come up with an original idea, judging from the number of remakes of old classics (some of which weren't all that wonderful to start with). I note that the "Pink Panther" is due for release, as if anyone can trump the late Peter Sellers in the part. I guess "Plan 9 from Outer Space" is due for the treatment any day now. Netflix seems to be an awfully expensive way to keep the dogs entertained, anyway! Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 13:04:48 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:04:48 -0500 Subject: OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <200602031034010833.57E6119C@10.0.0.252> References: <200602031034010833.57E6119C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43E3A950.3010500@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2/3/2006 at 11:14 AM Richard wrote: > > >>>One word: Netflix. >> >>One word: BitTorrent :-) > > > WAY OT: Give me a break! Hollywood screenwriters can't even come up with > an original idea, judging from the number of remakes of old classics (some > of which weren't all that wonderful to start with). I note that the "Pink > Panther" is due for release, as if anyone can trump the late Peter Sellers > in the part. > > I guess "Plan 9 from Outer Space" is due for the treatment any day now. > > Netflix seems to be an awfully expensive way to keep the dogs entertained, > anyway! Hence the bittorrent suggestion. Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Feb 3 13:08:59 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 13:08:59 -0600 Subject: OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <200602031034010833.57E6119C@10.0.0.252> References: <200602031034010833.57E6119C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43E3AA4B.6070900@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2/3/2006 at 11:14 AM Richard wrote: > > >>>One word: Netflix. >> >>One word: BitTorrent :-) > > > WAY OT: Give me a break! Hollywood screenwriters can't even come up with > an original idea, judging from the number of remakes of old classics (some > of which weren't all that wonderful to start with). I note that the "Pink > Panther" is due for release, as if anyone can trump the late Peter Sellers > in the part. > > I guess "Plan 9 from Outer Space" is due for the treatment any day now. > > Netflix seems to be an awfully expensive way to keep the dogs entertained, > anyway! Netflix is "Teh Awes0me!" if, like us, you have a hard time getting the movies back on time. Plus they have a great selection of TV series' compilations, which is the only way I can watch TV. Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 3 12:40:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 18:40:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <43E2B45A.1060105@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 3, 6 01:39:38 am Message-ID: > > They should be on the same rack with the handheld TV's that will become > > useless when we go all digital. > > And the same deal with radios... > > Great, an increase of channels with worse reception and programming quality > than analogue - all in the name of progress :( Grrr! And more complciated receivers, with more custom parts, worse documentation, and higher power consumption (I am told the battery life on portable digital radios is a total joke). When the analogue TV transmitters are finally turned off, I, for one, will not be renewing my TV license. There are many more intersting things to do than watch TV... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 3 12:41:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 18:41:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Feb 2, 6 07:09:50 pm Message-ID: > > All you really had to do to fry the MDA on a PC was to program the > > horizontal frequency a few KHz too high. > > I thought what killed it was setting the horizontal frequency to zero. No, the horizontal drive in the 5151 monitor is at least AC coupled (by the line driver transformer if nothing else), so a constant high or low on the horizotnal pin of the DE9 connecotr does no damage at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 3 12:44:05 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 18:44:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <9e2403920602021815u6ace786bw388449ec1e8de5c1@mail.gmail.com> from "Josef Chessor" at Feb 2, 6 08:15:40 pm Message-ID: > Well, he was typing on the Apple IIe, and a neighbor decided to leave > the complex. > > C-A-T-A-L-O-G-- > > At the same instant that the roommate hit ENTER, the car managed to > back into the power transformer. There was a loud explosion outside, > and inside a smaller one was accompanied by (as he described it) "the > floppy drive flying right by my head and into the wall"! > > The accompanying surge blew out every electronic device in the complex > that was directly attached to an outlet. Ironically enough, the Apple > IIe (sans unfortunate disk drive) survived. It had a Kensington > System Saver installed... > > According to the roommate, the System Saver saved itself... The spike > was shunted to the power supply, which shunted it to the motherboard, > which shunted it to the disk drive. Having nowhere to shunt the > spike, the disk drive saved the computer by commiting suicide. > > The last part I had no faith in, until uncovering his Apple IIe in a > store-room a few years ago. There was the system saver, the IIe, and > two disk drives... The first ("Drive 2") was perfectly functional, if > dirty... The second ("Drive 1") didn't work. On disassembly, a large > scorched hole winked out from a place on the analog board that once > housed a major IC. Could you please explain that in a way that makes electrical sense. A surge does not run around until it finds nowhere to go and then blows up an IC.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 3 12:49:55 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 18:49:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060202202345.04e454e0@mail> from "John Foust" at Feb 2, 6 08:36:01 pm Message-ID: > I had my $500 Sony TV repaired the old fashion way last summer. > For $200 total or so, out of warranty, a guy from a big TV/appliance > regional chain drove 40 minutes, debugged which transistor was I'm wondering why you didn't just grab the service manual from the shelf and track it down yourself... It couldn't have taken that long. Actually, that's one reason I repair instead of replace, even on old stuff. Having invested in the service manual, and in some cases made up extension leads. test jigs, etc, I don't want to have to do all that again because I've bought some new device. > flakey, then made the return trip with the replacement and > resoldered it right there in my living room. Fairly old school, > maybe 55 or so. But looking inside the TV, it was clear there > weren't that many non-IC non-daughterboard parts. My problem was In the UK, if TVs are repaired at all, then the daughterboards are also repaired to compoennt level, even when they contain 100+ pin SMD ICs. Boardswapping in consumer electronics is relatively uncommon over here, at least from what I've read. > relatively simple; the TV wouldn't turn on reliably. > > But so few things are repaired these days. I know the IT people > at several nearby school systems. Regional consortiums (called > CESA in WI) once repaired their small electronic equipment, but > now they're gone and now they're stuck. Where to go to repair > a laser printer? An overhead projector? And just how many components are there in an OHP? And how hard is it to trace the fault with nothing mroe than a multimeter? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 3 13:21:29 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 19:21:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <50037.195.212.29.75.1138960119.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> from "gordonjcp@gjcp.net" at Feb 3, 6 09:48:39 am Message-ID: > Offtopic, but... > > I always take the time to change the oil in my cars myself. Why? Becaus= > e I do all work on my father's car myself. Why? Because quite literally my life could be at risk if it wos done wrongly, and I am not going to risk that. > I know it's a bit arrogant, but I take the "if you want a thing done > properly, do it yourself" attitude to pretty much all my work. I suffer from the same problem.... I've learnt to trust nobody else (this is, alas, based on hard experience) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 3 13:23:55 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 19:23:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RK611 schematics In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2674@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Feb 3, 6 11:57:56 am Message-ID: > To cut a long story short: I am now booting the 11/34 from DM0: !!! > COngratulations. > Again, I learned a lot about the hardware, but more important: > - do not assume the worst, the problem is often simple. On the other hand, it's a mistake to assume the cause will be simple without gathering evidence first. > - if the system gives you data, have a *very* good look at it. Oh yess, examine all evidence (whether from diagnostic programs, the front panel, the 'scope, whatever) very carefully.... -tony From allain at panix.com Fri Feb 3 13:33:43 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:33:43 -0500 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP References: <43E2C82D.2020201@oldskool.org> <6.2.3.4.2.20060202221656.0455c628@mail> Message-ID: <046601c628f8$e0bcae20$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > Digital off-air TV is better than digital cable. Digital cable > gets re-MPEG-compressed as the cable company sees fit; but the > off-air is consistently higher quality at least in terms of the signal Witnessed this at my sister's house. Switching a channel took over a second. Something about the decoder waiting for the key frame perhaps? Made chanel surfing excrutiating. I will not automatically expect digital TV to be superior to current, will have to see it perform to believe. Warning: thread drift may result in flame damage. Anybody have "The Agency", (CBS 2001-2003) archived? John A., ducking From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 13:39:07 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 19:39:07 +0000 Subject: Building electronic projects from 30-year-old articles (was Re: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building) Message-ID: On 2/3/06, Richard wrote: > In article , > Ethan Dicks writes: > > Two years ago, I built a COSMAC Elf right out of the pages of the > > 1977-1978 Popular Electronics articles, on perfboard... > > Is the Popular Electronis article scanned online? This sounds kinda > cool! And a nice way to get a little experience without damaging > anything hard to find. http://www.incolor.com/bill_r/elf/html/elf-1-33.htm I even used real HP displays (electrically identical to TIL-311s, but in a different package) and 1822 (5101) 256x4 SRAMs. If you are shooting for software compatibility without a slavish devotion to the 1976 appearance, you can use a modern 32Kx8 SRAM and even add a latch to access memory over 256 bytes (but toggling in that much data is kinda tedious). You will find it hard to locate a genuine 1861, but Spare Time Gizmos has a modern 1861 pin-compatible emulator (a shift register, a counter, and two 22V10 GALs) that fits in the socket for a real 1861. If you don't care about video, you can get a newer 1802 processor and run the entire thing at 5MHz. For those that don't know, there's a reasonably active 1802 group on Yahoo... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cosmacelf/ ... I'd recommend it if you want to play with the 1802. -ethan From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Feb 3 13:55:51 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 13:55:51 -0600 Subject: Road Trips In-Reply-To: <200601290502.k0T5253x034557@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200601290502.k0T5253x034557@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > How many of you have done a road trip to get equipment? > - travelled 50 miles? San Antonio/Kerrville, Columbia/DC > - travelled 100 miles? San Antonio/Austin, a couple times for various > - travelled 250 miles each way? San Antonio/Houston, a couple times for Alphas, VAX VLC's, NeXTs, etc. > - travelled 500+ miles each way? > - travelled 750 miles? > - travelled 1,200+ miles each way? -- - Mark NOTE: MOBILE CONTACT NOW 2-WAY PAGER AT: 888-733-0967 office is still: 210-522-6025 From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 3 14:05:02 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 13:05:02 -0700 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans Message-ID: Hey, so I'm glad that I read a web page (can't remember the URL, sorry... linked from the Nike Missile site, I think) about refurbishing deteriorated parts in old machines. I bought a 2648A main unit (would love a keyboard for it, if anyone has an extra) and opened it up last night. The tape drive capstans have turned to a puddle of goo! So I figure that if I ever want the tape drive to be in working order, that I need to: i) remove the goo ii) recreate/replace the capstan Does anyone have a unit with an intact capstan that could give me physical dimensions? I doubt anyone has a repair kit that would include the capstan, but that would certainly be welcome! Aside from the capstans and a little dust inside the case, the internals look fine. The case has a small crack in one corner, but otherwise appears in typical condition for its age. This thing is basically a microcomputer... when I used them back in 1979, I had no idea that there was this much electronics inside the thing! I do have the user manual from bitsavers, but it doesn't go into repair stuff, just installation (which is how I figured out how to open the case) of options. As always... thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 3 14:35:59 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 13:35:59 -0700 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 03 Feb 2006 13:05:02 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > [...] I bought a 2648A > main unit (would love a keyboard for it, if anyone has an extra) OK, serendipity strikes again. In contacting another place in Boise that had a 2648A w/keyboard, they had another keyboard, so I don't need a 2nd KB. I'd still like to hear about capstans though. Does anyone have experiences to share in addition to the one online at the Computer History Museum? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Feb 3 14:49:39 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 20:49:39 -0000 Subject: Computer Mythbusters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003c01c62903$5b212f60$5b01a8c0@pc1> compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > I just busted a recent myth. . . connected my KZQSA up to a RRD42 and > a IBM 0661 Winchester - worked just fine booting, mounting, etc under > VMS 7.2. Slow, but functional. KZQSA supports more than one device > and works with HDDs I don't think anyone ever claimed it does not work at all. It just is not supported by OpenVMS. I forget the exact reason (other than just plain speed) but I think there are some corner cases where it does not work properly. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 14:52:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 12:52:02 -0800 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602031252020065.586468DF@10.0.0.252> On 2/3/2006 at 1:35 PM Richard wrote: >I'd still like to hear about capstans though. Does anyone have >experiences to share in addition to the one online at the Computer >History Museum? Not to put too much of fine point on it, but are we talking about capstans or pinch rollers? I always thought that the capstan was the hard steel driven shaft and the pinch roller was the soft larger roller that pressed the tape against the capstan. At least in the nautical sense of the word, this would seem to make better sense. At any rate, would any of the commercially available replacement parts for VCRs or audio tape do the job? Cheers, Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Feb 3 14:57:36 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:57:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Silent 700 manual In-Reply-To: <43E245C9.26379.8E316330@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <43E245C9.26379.8E316330@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: Does anyone have a service manual for a TI Silent 700, model 745? Mostly, I'd like to have a schematic. Thanks. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 3 15:07:06 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:07:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Feb 3, 6 01:05:02 pm Message-ID: > opened it up last night. The tape drive capstans have turned to a > puddle of goo! So I figure that if I ever want the tape drive to be THis is a well-known problem on most old HP machines. I've repaired many handhelds (the card reader roller fails the same way), the rollers in my 9100Bs, 9810, etc. I've not yet done this sort of drive, though. There have been several comments on web sites about repairing similar drives. Look back through the archives on http://www.hpmuseum.org/ for some ideas. I don't know if this drive is similar to any other HP unit (is there a part number on the PCB wired to the mechanism?) but I would guess ideas for the 9815/9825/9835/9845 or the HP85 might be applicable. > in working order, that I need to: > > i) remove the goo > ii) recreate/replace the capstan > > Does anyone have a unit with an intact capstan that could give me > physical dimensions? I doubt anyone has a repair kit that would > include the capstan, but that would certainly be welcome! Aside from If it's like the 9815/9825 one, then the smallest FRU was the complete drive, alas. The do come apart, although it can be hard to remove the capstan from the motor spindle (the grub screws put burrs on the motor spindle, and you can't lever it off because of the tachometer disk which is fairly delicate). If you think it's similar to either of the drives I've mentioned, I can talk you through taking it apart. > I do have the user manual from bitsavers, but it doesn't go into > repair stuff, just installation (which is how I figured out how to > open the case) of options. You might also find some documentaition on http://www.hpmuseum.net/ (this is not the same site I mentioned earlier, one is .org, the other .net). But I don't recall seing a schematic or similar info for any terminal there. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 3 15:13:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:13:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: <200602031252020065.586468DF@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 3, 6 12:52:02 pm Message-ID: > > On 2/3/2006 at 1:35 PM Richard wrote: > > >I'd still like to hear about capstans though. Does anyone have > >experiences to share in addition to the one online at the Computer > >History Museum? > > Not to put too much of fine point on it, but are we talking about capstans > or pinch rollers? I always thought that the capstan was the hard steel If it's the sort of drive I think it is (alas I don't have this HP terminal, wish I did...), it works like a QIC tape drive. The motor spindle has a rubber wheel on the end (this is normally called the capstan), this turns a hard roller (normally called the drive puck) in the catrridsge, which then moves the tape by an endless belt that runs between the 2 spools of tape. We had a discussion some months back about how this actually tensions the tape (I understood it in the end, it depends on the fact hat the belt stretches slightly). The is no capstan/pinch roller like in an audio tape recorder [1]. The roller that fails is the rubber coated one on the motor spindle, part of the drive. I have worked on 2 HP tape drives like this. One is the type used in the HP85 computer. It has a PCB fixed to the back with an HP custom chip on it. The other is the one used in the HP9815, HP9825, HP9845, etc computers. It has a PCB attached by wires with a few standard ICs on it (a TTL decoder chip, 2 or 3 op-amps). [1] My HP9830 has a built-in tape drive that takes tapes that look like audio compact cassettes. But there's no pinch roller and capstan, the only drive is to the spools. And I amp pretty sure this is nothing like the drive in said HP terminal. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 15:24:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 13:24:09 -0800 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602031324090238.5881D0CF@10.0.0.252> On 2/3/2006 at 9:13 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >If it's the sort of drive I think it is (alas I don't have this HP >terminal, wish I did...), it works like a QIC tape drive. Ah, okay--that makes sense if it is. A couple of months ago, someone posted a link to a fellow who rebuilds these things "like new" quite reasonably. Mostly, he does audio and video work, but there's no good reason that he can't do the HP capstan. A google may turn him up. Cheers, Chuck From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Feb 3 15:31:33 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:31:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060203213133.B5FF65808D@mail.wordstock.com> > > > Could you please explain that in a way that makes electrical sense. A > surge does not run around until it finds nowhere to go and then blows up > an IC.... > In the movies it does! 8-) Cheers, Bryan (who hates disaster movies because somehow the disaster always targets the "hero") From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 3 15:36:19 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:36:19 -0700 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 03 Feb 2006 12:52:02 -0800. <200602031252020065.586468DF@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200602031252020065.586468DF at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Not to put too much of fine point on it, but are we talking about capstans > or pinch rollers? I'm probably calling them the wrong thing through ignorance and assumptions! :-) I believe you are correct based on this picture: So yes, its the pinch roller that looks like a pile of goo on a spindle :-) > At any rate, would any of the commercially available replacement parts for > VCRs or audio tape do the job? As you can see, I'm so much of a n00b that I can't even name the parts properly, so I'm not one to answer that! :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 3 15:37:58 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:37:58 -0700 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 03 Feb 2006 13:24:09 -0800. <200602031324090238.5881D0CF@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200602031324090238.5881D0CF at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 2/3/2006 at 9:13 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >If it's the sort of drive I think it is (alas I don't have this HP > >terminal, wish I did...), it works like a QIC tape drive. > > Ah, okay--that makes sense if it is. A couple of months ago, someone > posted a link to a fellow who rebuilds these things "like new" quite > reasonably. Mostly, he does audio and video work, but there's no good > reason that he can't do the HP capstan. A google may turn him up. Do you remember the thread subject? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From george at rachors.com Fri Feb 3 16:05:40 2006 From: george at rachors.com (George L. Rachor Jr.) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 14:05:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Road Trips In-Reply-To: References: <200601290502.k0T5253x034557@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060203140455.U48489@racsys.rachors.com> ok... I once traveled from Portland Oregon to the Bay area to snatch a Heathkit H8... George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george at rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Mark Tapley wrote: >> How many of you have done a road trip to get equipment? >> - travelled 50 miles? > San Antonio/Kerrville, Columbia/DC >> - travelled 100 miles? > San Antonio/Austin, a couple times for various >> - travelled 250 miles each way? > San Antonio/Houston, a couple times for Alphas, VAX VLC's, NeXTs, > etc. >> - travelled 500+ miles each way? >> - travelled 750 miles? >> - travelled 1,200+ miles each way? > > -- > - Mark > NOTE: MOBILE CONTACT NOW 2-WAY PAGER AT: 888-733-0967 > office is still: 210-522-6025 > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 16:20:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:20:07 -0800 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602031420070771.58B50FF2@10.0.0.252> On 2/3/2006 at 2:37 PM Richard wrote: >Do you remember the thread subject? No, but for some unexplained reason, I set a bookmark: http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/ Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 3 17:04:29 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 16:04:29 -0700 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:20:07 -0800. <200602031420070771.58B50FF2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200602031420070771.58B50FF2 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > No, but for some unexplained reason, I set a bookmark: > > http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/ Sweet. It looks like if I can find the appropriate dimensions for this that he could make an appropriate replacement. Then the next major mission would be to find media for these tape drives. I suppose I can get an HP catalog number out of the user's manual to start the search. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Feb 3 17:23:41 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 18:23:41 -0500 Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602031823.41191.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 02 February 2006 09:16 pm, William Donzelli wrote: > > As many of you know, the venerable Mike Quinn Electronics in San > > Leandro, CA (down by the Oakland Airport) closed last Saturday with > > virtually no advance notice. If you're in the San Francisco Bay Area, > > you know Mike Quinn is the one of the very last of the nitty gritty > > electronics salvage shops left, with an emphasis on gritty. > > Another one goes. > > I can understand why - unless you live in the middle of nowhere with > basically zero overhead (think Fair or Nebraska Surplus), you just can not > drum up the business. As much as I like the idea of opening a retail > outlet for my junk, I know it would be suicide. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org Which sure explains why all of those wonderful places I used to get to in NYC are long gone... :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Feb 3 17:30:41 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:30:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: what bus is this for? Message-ID: <200602032330.PAA16475@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi I think ( but I'm not sure ) that this spacing was used for the bus connectors on the KIM-1 and the SYM-1/2. Dwight >From: "Richard" > >ebay item #8760295547, prototyping board > >Card edge connector with 44 contacts, 22 per side, 0.156" spacing > >Is this STD bus? I'm not planning on buying it, I was just >curious :) > >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Feb 3 17:39:53 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 15:39:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans Message-ID: <20060203233953.41734.qmail@web81107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I fixed mine my cleaning off the goo and sliding a thick piece of surgical tubing over the pinch roller. I had to strech the tubing quite a bit, but it works just fine. I have heard other people use o-rings but I don't know they keep them on. Bob Message: 20 Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 13:05:02 -0700 From: Richard Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Hey, so I'm glad that I read a web page (can't remember the URL, sorry... linked from the Nike Missile site, I think) about refurbishing deteriorated parts in old machines. I bought a 2648A main unit (would love a keyboard for it, if anyone has an extra) and opened it up last night. The tape drive capstans have turned to a puddle of goo! So I figure that if I ever want the tape drive to be in working order, that I need to: i) remove the goo ii) recreate/replace the capstan Does anyone have a unit with an intact capstan that could give me physical dimensions? I doubt anyone has a repair kit that would include the capstan, but that would certainly be welcome! Aside from the capstans and a little dust inside the case, the internals look fine. The case has a small crack in one corner, but otherwise appears in typical condition for its age. This thing is basically a microcomputer... when I used them back in 1979, I had no idea that there was this much electronics inside the thing! I do have the user manual from bitsavers, but it doesn't go into repair stuff, just installation (which is how I figured out how to open the case) of options. As always... thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 17:52:22 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:52:22 -0800 Subject: what bus is this for? In-Reply-To: <200602032330.PAA16475@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200602032330.PAA16475@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200602031552220176.590981F2@10.0.0.252> On 2/3/2006 at 3:30 PM Dwight Elvey wrote: >Hi > I think ( but I'm not sure ) that this spacing was >used for the bus connectors on the KIM-1 and the SYM-1/2. >Dwight Could be. I've got an Optimal Technology EP-2A EPROM programmer board that I believe was intended for use with the KIM-1. It does use that 44-pin connector. Basically it's a 4000-series CMOS counter and some drivers. IIRC, you had to provide VPP and probably the other voltages. I think it's limited to 2708's. It's in my hellbox and I'm not even sure if I have the docs for it--although I just might be convinced to check for them if someone wants to make an offer on it. It's never been used--the fellow with the KIM-1 who was having me build a little PS for this thing lost interest when he figured out he'd have to also buy a UV EPROM eraser (not cheap back then). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 17:54:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:54:33 -0800 Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance In-Reply-To: <200602031823.41191.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200602031823.41191.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200602031554330832.590B8433@10.0.0.252> On 2/3/2006 at 6:23 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >Which sure explains why all of those wonderful places I used to get to in >NYC are long gone... :-( Yeah, even compared to Silicon Valley surplus outlets, there still was nothing that could quite compare with "Radio Row" (South Michigan Ave.) in Chicago in its heyday. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 3 18:09:34 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 17:09:34 -0700 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:39:53 -0800. <20060203233953.41734.qmail@web81107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <20060203233953.41734.qmail at web81107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > I fixed mine my cleaning off the goo and sliding a > thick piece of surgical tubing over the pinch roller. > I had to strech the tubing quite a bit, but it works > just fine. I have heard other people use o-rings but I > don't know they keep them on. Can you measure the diameter of the end result that you made? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From charlesmorris at direcway.com Fri Feb 3 18:40:07 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 19:40:07 -0500 Subject: Silent 700 manual In-Reply-To: 43E245C9.26379.8E316330@brian.quarterbyte.com Message-ID: <3qt7u1ptah5stb9b0rq7faumm3gdfe788c@4ax.com> I've previously posted here twice, looking for a manual or schematic, without success. I have two model 745's that don't work and fixing them would be *much* simpler with a schematic. If anyone does come across a manual I'd be interested in a copy too. thanks Charles From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 18:47:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 16:47:51 -0800 Subject: Favorite DOS batch language Message-ID: <200602031647510169.593C4D2C@10.0.0.252> Does anyone have any favorites when it comes to extending MS-DOS's batch language? Ideally, I'd like a facility to do simple arithmetic and looping and be able to parse filenames into their components a la 'C' "splitpath". Long file name support would be a bonus. Anyone have any candidates? Cheers, Chuck From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Feb 3 18:52:03 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:52:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Favorite DOS batch language Message-ID: <200602040052.QAA19042@ca2h0430.amd.com> fpc ( Forth ) Dwight >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >Does anyone have any favorites when it comes to extending MS-DOS's batch >language? Ideally, I'd like a facility to do simple arithmetic and looping >and be able to parse filenames into their components a la 'C' "splitpath". >Long file name support would be a bonus. > >Anyone have any candidates? > >Cheers, >Chuck > > From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Feb 3 18:58:31 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:58:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Favorite DOS batch language In-Reply-To: <200602031647510169.593C4D2C@10.0.0.252> References: <200602031647510169.593C4D2C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Does anyone have any favorites when it comes to extending MS-DOS's batch > language? Ideally, I'd like a facility to do simple arithmetic and looping > and be able to parse filenames into their components a la 'C' "splitpath". > Long file name support would be a bonus. > > Anyone have any candidates? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > 4DOS Does you file name parsing plus stuff like: copy frap*.foo brap*.goo Peter Wallace From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Feb 3 18:58:32 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 18:58:32 -0600 Subject: Computer Mythbusters Message-ID: <4b2d887595f34fa893adc4a0d34a47e8@valleyimplants.com> Misunderstanding between "unsupported = not guaranteed to work by the manufacturer" (KZQSA disk drives on VMS, HP-UX 11i on G70) and "unsupported = will not work or is not likely to work" (KZQSA on NetBSD, NetBSD on G70) My read of an earlier thread was that KZQSA was not likely to support multiple devices or fixed disks under VMS, rather than merely "HP will not guarantee OpenVMS to support all disks on KZQSA". It would be nice if a definite distinction was made between these two connotations of "unsupported", but I suppose it would be a lot of bother for anyone trying to do that, especially the companies. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 19:12:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 17:12:58 -0800 Subject: Favorite DOS batch language In-Reply-To: References: <200602031647510169.593C4D2C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200602031712580554.59534D4A@10.0.0.252> On 2/3/2006 at 4:58 PM Peter C. Wallace wrote: >4DOS > >Does you file name parsing plus stuff like: > >copy frap*.foo brap*.goo How about a bash or csh-like replacement? Cheers, Chuck From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Feb 3 20:05:57 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 20:05:57 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060203200557.3d7f5bfc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Check the archives for messages about HP-85 repairs. They use the same tape drive and this has been discussed numerous times. Joe At 01:05 PM 2/3/06 -0700, you wrote: >Hey, so I'm glad that I read a web page (can't remember the URL, >sorry... linked from the Nike Missile site, I think) about >refurbishing deteriorated parts in old machines. I bought a 2648A >main unit (would love a keyboard for it, if anyone has an extra) and >opened it up last night. The tape drive capstans have turned to a >puddle of goo! So I figure that if I ever want the tape drive to be >in working order, that I need to: > > i) remove the goo > ii) recreate/replace the capstan > >Does anyone have a unit with an intact capstan that could give me >physical dimensions? I doubt anyone has a repair kit that would >include the capstan, but that would certainly be welcome! Aside from >the capstans and a little dust inside the case, the internals look >fine. The case has a small crack in one corner, but otherwise appears >in typical condition for its age. This thing is basically a >microcomputer... when I used them back in 1979, I had no idea that >there was this much electronics inside the thing! > >I do have the user manual from bitsavers, but it doesn't go into >repair stuff, just installation (which is how I figured out how to >open the case) of options. > >As always... thanks! >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Feb 3 20:13:31 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 20:13:31 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: <"03 Feb 2006 14:20:07 -0800." <200602031420070771.58B50FF2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060203201331.3cdf6712@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:04 PM 2/3/06 -0700, you wrote: > >In article <200602031420070771.58B50FF2 at 10.0.0.252>, > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > >> No, but for some unexplained reason, I set a bookmark: >> >> http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/ > >Sweet. It looks like if I can find the appropriate dimensions for >this that he could make an appropriate replacement. Then the next >major mission would be to find media for these tape drives. I suppose >I can get an HP catalog number out of the user's manual to start the >search. Don't bother with the old HP tapes. I've never seen a one that worked more than a couple of days, even NOS ones. And I've tried dozens of them. I even got a hold of a SEALED case of 100 new sealed tapes and even those were useless. The old DECassette tapes hold up pretty good and some of the old 40Mb DC 2 something,something,something tapes used in the early PC tape drives will also work in the HPs and about half of them that you find are good. Again this has been covered extensively on this list and should be in the archives. Joe >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Feb 3 20:14:40 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 20:14:40 Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance In-Reply-To: <200602031823.41191.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060203201440.3cdf4bac@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:23 PM 2/3/06 -0500, you wrote: >On Thursday 02 February 2006 09:16 pm, William Donzelli wrote: >> > As many of you know, the venerable Mike Quinn Electronics in San >> > Leandro, CA (down by the Oakland Airport) closed last Saturday with >> > virtually no advance notice. If you're in the San Francisco Bay Area, >> > you know Mike Quinn is the one of the very last of the nitty gritty >> > electronics salvage shops left, with an emphasis on gritty. >> >> Another one goes. >> >> I can understand why - unless you live in the middle of nowhere with >> basically zero overhead (think Fair or Nebraska Surplus), you just can not >> drum up the business. As much as I like the idea of opening a retail >> outlet for my junk, I know it would be suicide. >> >> William Donzelli >> aw288 at osfn.org > >Which sure explains why all of those wonderful places I used to get to in NYC >are long gone... :-( All of the neat old electronics places in NYC were bulldozed to make room for the World Trade Center. Joe > >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can >be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James >M Dakin > From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Feb 3 19:34:23 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 17:34:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Favorite DOS batch language In-Reply-To: <200602031712580554.59534D4A@10.0.0.252> References: <200602031647510169.593C4D2C@10.0.0.252> <200602031712580554.59534D4A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2/3/2006 at 4:58 PM Peter C. Wallace wrote: > >> 4DOS >> >> Does you file name parsing plus stuff like: >> >> copy frap*.foo brap*.goo > > How about a bash or csh-like replacement? > > Cheers, > Chuck > Theres a version of GNU bash ported to DOS but it needs DPMI (its compiled with DJGPP) OK if you have a 386+ > > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From jcwren at jcwren.com Fri Feb 3 19:24:13 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 20:24:13 -0500 Subject: Favorite DOS batch language In-Reply-To: <200602031712580554.59534D4A@10.0.0.252> References: <200602031647510169.593C4D2C@10.0.0.252> <200602031712580554.59534D4A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43E4023D.9080309@jcwren.com> cygwin (cygwin.com) is great. I used to be a very heavy 4DOS user, but mostly I've switched to bash under cygwin, since it's a more unix-y environment. --jc Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2/3/2006 at 4:58 PM Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > >> 4DOS >> >> Does you file name parsing plus stuff like: >> >> copy frap*.foo brap*.goo >> > > How about a bash or csh-like replacement? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Feb 3 19:54:58 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 17:54:58 -0800 Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics: Liquidation sale Message-ID: <200602031754580427.1E25AE13@192.168.42.129> Fellow CCTECH'ers, especially those in the Bay Area, I just got an E-mail from a fellow scrounger. It seems that, though Mike Quinn Electronics is indeed closing their doors for good, they will be having a big liquidation sale this coming week. Hours for the event will be Tuesday (the 7th) through Friday (the 10th) from 10:00 to 16:00. Regrettably, I have neither the available time nor the budget to make the trip down. I would appreciate hearing from anyone who visits during the final week to hear how it went. Please give Jay my regards if you see him. Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 20:26:43 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 21:26:43 -0500 Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060203201440.3cdf4bac@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060203201440.3cdf4bac@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43E410E3.2000806@gmail.com> Joe R. wrote: > At 06:23 PM 2/3/06 -0500, you wrote: > >>On Thursday 02 February 2006 09:16 pm, William Donzelli wrote: >> >>>>As many of you know, the venerable Mike Quinn Electronics in San >>>>Leandro, CA (down by the Oakland Airport) closed last Saturday with >>>>virtually no advance notice. If you're in the San Francisco Bay Area, >>>>you know Mike Quinn is the one of the very last of the nitty gritty >>>>electronics salvage shops left, with an emphasis on gritty. >>> >>>Another one goes. >>> >>>I can understand why - unless you live in the middle of nowhere with >>>basically zero overhead (think Fair or Nebraska Surplus), you just can not >>>drum up the business. As much as I like the idea of opening a retail >>>outlet for my junk, I know it would be suicide. >>> >>>William Donzelli >>>aw288 at osfn.org >> >>Which sure explains why all of those wonderful places I used to get to in > > NYC > >>are long gone... :-( > > > > All of the neat old electronics places in NYC were bulldozed to make room > for the World Trade Center. Later on, there were a bunch in Brooklyn, but they're long gone too. Peace... Sridhar From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Feb 3 20:38:16 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:38:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance In-Reply-To: <43E410E3.2000806@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Later on, there were a bunch in Brooklyn, but they're long gone too. Leeds is still around, I think. There is also quite a bit of the remains of Compass at a place called Federal Signal and Ironworks. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Feb 3 20:40:04 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:40:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060203201440.3cdf4bac@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > All of the neat old electronics places in NYC were bulldozed to make room > for the World Trade Center. A few left town and set up camp elsewhere, just to close up later. Some migrated to Canal St., where one remains (the motor and blower store). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Feb 3 20:38:13 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:38:13 -0500 Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060203201440.3cdf4bac@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060203201440.3cdf4bac@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200602032138.13440.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 03 February 2006 03:14 pm, Joe R. wrote: > >Which sure explains why all of those wonderful places I used to get to in > > NYC are long gone... :-( > > All of the neat old electronics places in NYC were bulldozed to make room > for the World Trade Center. I know where some of those were, I was there... Aha! An alternate explanation for the destruction of 9/11! :-0 (Adjusting tinfoil hat, here.) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Feb 3 20:40:18 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:40:18 -0500 Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602032140.18988.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 03 February 2006 09:38 pm, William Donzelli wrote: > > Later on, there were a bunch in Brooklyn, but they're long gone too. > > Leeds is still around, I think. > > There is also quite a bit of the remains of Compass at a place called > Federal Signal and Ironworks. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org Still? Whereabouts are these places located? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From news at computercollector.com Fri Feb 3 20:49:46 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:49:46 -0500 Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance In-Reply-To: <200602032138.13440.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <000701c62935$a9519760$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> An alternate explanation for the destruction of 9/11! :-0 NOT funny. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roy J. Tellason Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 9:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance On Friday 03 February 2006 03:14 pm, Joe R. wrote: > >Which sure explains why all of those wonderful places I used to get to in > > NYC are long gone... :-( > > All of the neat old electronics places in NYC were bulldozed to make > room for the World Trade Center. I know where some of those were, I was there... Aha! An alternate explanation for the destruction of 9/11! :-0 (Adjusting tinfoil hat, here.) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Feb 3 21:22:53 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 21:22:53 -0600 Subject: Favorite DOS batch language In-Reply-To: <200602031647510169.593C4D2C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060203210810.0c21aeb8@localhost> In the 80's I wrote extensions to WHAT.EXE a simple DOS batch extender that would get stuff and put it in the environment and exit code. It helped make DOS batch a little more bearable without learning a new batch language. I had to rewrite it to handle newer DOS versions (old methods of finding the master environment and updating using MASM didn't work anymore) and added several commands. Many no longer work as of Windows ME. Most of these functions are incorporated now into the CMD command processor's extended shell commands. I tested WHAT.EXE in the WinXP CMD processor and it can't properly update the master environment table. But you can run COMMAND.COM and there it works. WHAT V1.51- Batch file enhancer Command Purpose Argument Environ Exit Extended --------- ------- -------- ------- ---- ------ C[E] ["prompt"] [chars] Get Allowable Character Character Echo character characters G[E] ["prompt"] [chars] Get Allowable Character Character Echo character characters (G option gives up after a while and returns TO for TIMEOUT.) S[E] ["prompt"] Get string None String Length Echo D[E] Check DOS None Major (Major*10) Minor version +Minor version E[E] Get environ None Bytes Bytes/10 10 bytes bytes left bytes in exit F[E] filespec Get file Filespec Kilobytes Ks/10Ks 10Ks in size (255=directory) exit Command Purpose Argument Environ Exit Extended --------- ------- -------- ------- ---- ------ K[E] [driveletter] Get disk Drive Kilobytes Ks/10Ks 10Ks in space exit M[E] Check None Kilobytes Ks/10Ks 10Ks in memory exit P[E] Check for n =1-4, Status 1=yes,0=no Verbal printer LPTn: message (is ready) Message V [number] Get/Set New mode Current or Current or None video mode last mode last mode 7 Check for None 1=yes,0=no 1=yes,0=no None coprocessor Command Purpose Argument Environ Exit Extended --------- ------- -------- ------- ---- ------ A Check for None 1=yes,0=no 1=yes,0=no None ANSI driver Y[E] Get current None Directory Level/Drive Drive directory T[E] Get Time None HH:MM Nothing 12 hour of day format X[E] Get Date None mm-dd-yy Nothing yy-mm-dd W[E] Get Day None Day Name 0-7 for Abbrev. of week Sun-Sat B[E] Get File Filename mm-dd-yy Nothing yy-mm-dd Date At 04:47 PM 2/3/2006 -0800, you wrote: >Does anyone have any favorites when it comes to extending MS-DOS's batch >language? Ideally, I'd like a facility to do simple arithmetic and looping >and be able to parse filenames into their components a la 'C' "splitpath". >Long file name support would be a bonus. > >Anyone have any candidates? > >Cheers, >Chuck [Alcohol] You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline - it helps if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at the very least you need a beer. --Frank Zappa --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From josefcub at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 21:29:32 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:29:32 -0600 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: References: <9e2403920602021815u6ace786bw388449ec1e8de5c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920602031929j7b561813kd3ce21bfa0f50487@mail.gmail.com> On 2/3/06, Tony Duell wrote: > Could you please explain that in a way that makes electrical sense. A > surge does not run around until it finds nowhere to go and then blows up > an IC.... Of course it doesn't. That's a bit of poetic license, if you will. All I know is that the physical evidence I found, 20 years later, corroborating my roommate's story included a functioning Apple IIe with Kensington System Saver, and one dead disk drive that had a big black hole through the analog board. The story, if nothing else, is amusing long after the fact. ;-) I figured that the story belongs, in an obtuse way, in the category of killer POKEs. (Even if it's more like a killer CATALOG...) From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 22:17:06 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:17:06 -0500 Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E42AC2.6070105@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >>Later on, there were a bunch in Brooklyn, but they're long gone too. > > > Leeds is still around, I think. > > There is also quite a bit of the remains of Compass at a place called > Federal Signal and Ironworks. Where is Federal Signal and Ironworks? That name sound very familiar. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 22:17:41 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:17:41 -0500 Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance In-Reply-To: <000701c62935$a9519760$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <000701c62935$a9519760$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <43E42AE5.7040006@gmail.com> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >>>>An alternate explanation for the destruction of 9/11! :-0 > > > NOT funny. Definitely not funny. Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Feb 3 22:44:33 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 22:44:33 -0600 Subject: Favorite DOS batch language In-Reply-To: References: <200602031647510169.593C4D2C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43E43131.1020100@mdrconsult.com> Peter C. Wallace wrote: > On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Does anyone have any favorites when it comes to extending MS-DOS's batch >> language? Ideally, I'd like a facility to do simple arithmetic and >> looping >> and be able to parse filenames into their components a la 'C' >> "splitpath". >> Long file name support would be a bonus. >> >> Anyone have any candidates? >> > > 4DOS Do they still sell that? I used to have a "borrowed" registered version, but I haven't seen it in a long time. As much time as I've spent running DOS recently, I might even pay for it. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 23:03:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 21:03:33 -0800 Subject: Favorite DOS batch language In-Reply-To: <43E43131.1020100@mdrconsult.com> References: <200602031647510169.593C4D2C@10.0.0.252> <43E43131.1020100@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200602032103330693.5A266723@10.0.0.252> On 2/3/2006 at 10:44 PM Doc Shipley wrote: > Do they still sell that? I used to have a "borrowed" registered >version, but I haven't seen it in a long time. As much time as I've >spent running DOS recently, I might even pay for it. Don't know, but I have a legit copy of my own from years ago. It was okay, but not quite what I'm looking for. Cruising the SIMTEL archives, I stumbled on a really cool batch language, called CENVID (archive name is cenvi211.zip). It's basically an interperter of a stripped-down version of C, called C minus-minus. It claims to be NT and 9x compatible, so I may also try it on my 2K system. It's very slick under 98. It was shareware back in 1996, so I'll have to see if the author is still around. I'll also look for that Bourne shell port. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 23:05:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 21:05:51 -0800 Subject: Favorite DOS batch language In-Reply-To: <43E4023D.9080309@jcwren.com> References: <200602031647510169.593C4D2C@10.0.0.252> <200602031712580554.59534D4A@10.0.0.252> <43E4023D.9080309@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <200602032105510883.5A2882F0@10.0.0.252> On 2/3/2006 at 8:24 PM J.C. Wren wrote: >cygwin (cygwin.com) is great. I used to be a very heavy 4DOS user, but >mostly I've switched to bash under cygwin, since it's a more unix-y >environment. I've had cygwin installed on an Win2K system--it's pretty beefy, I didn't know that there was an MS-DOS version. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Feb 3 23:12:03 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:12:03 -0600 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <43E387A3.5000908@yahoo.co.uk> References: <020e01c6285b$eb242f70$72781941@game> <43E2B45A.1060105@yahoo.co.uk> <43E2C82D.2020201@oldskool.org> <43E387A3.5000908@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43E437A3.3080200@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > Experience of digital TV (Satellite or cable) or digital radio in the UK > though has been that they compress the data so much in order to provide > more channels that the resulting picture/audio is far worse than can be > achieved with a good analogue TV/radio with a decent aerial setup. This depends on the carrier. Over here it ranges from incredible (HDTV) to abysmal (DirectTV (depending on the satellite and market you get)). > rather than a few analogue ones, the quality of actual content goes > through the floor because they can't be bothered to keep standards up. > In the cases where there *are* good shows, they end up being repeated > endlessly, and it's only when you stop and think that you realise there > are only a few hours of really good content per month out of > tens/hundreds of channels. Yes. That's what DVDs and DVRs are for. I record 200 hours of television a month and only watch about 15, seperating the wheat from the chaff. > :-) Understood :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Feb 3 23:13:20 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:13:20 -0600 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E437F0.3050702@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: >>One word: Netflix. > > One word: BitTorrent :-) Not at 320x240, sorry :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Feb 3 23:16:39 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:16:39 -0600 Subject: Favorite DOS batch language In-Reply-To: References: <200602031647510169.593C4D2C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43E438B7.2030805@oldskool.org> Peter C. Wallace wrote: > 4DOS Wholeheartedly agree, but if you plan on doing useful work on sub-386 PCs you need to find an older version. Somewhere along the way it became 386-only. I use 4dos 3.x on my 8088. 4dos 7.x is free from the author's website. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Feb 3 23:43:15 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 21:43:15 -0800 Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics: Liquidation sale In-Reply-To: <200602031754580427.1E25AE13@192.168.42.129> References: <200602031754580427.1E25AE13@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200602032143.15881.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 03 February 2006 17:54, Bruce Lane wrote: > Fellow CCTECH'ers, especially those in the Bay Area, > > I just got an E-mail from a fellow scrounger. It seems that, though Mike > Quinn Electronics is indeed closing their doors for good, they will be > having a big liquidation sale this coming week. Hours for the event will be > Tuesday (the 7th) through Friday (the 10th) from 10:00 to 16:00. I was there last Saturday - the day Mike Quinn's "officially closed". I picked up a couple of nice SGI monitors - but there wasn't much else of interest to me there. Most of the same stuff has been around for the last 5 or 10 years - PCs, gears, old P/S, old test gear, etc. Most of us who have gone there over the years have picked over just about everything and already "gleaned" the good stuff. (I first went to Quinn's over 20 years ago when they were located at the Oakland Airport). So only go to the "'new' final sale" if you've been there before and know what you want. There was no interesting DEC. HP or SGI gear there - and in terms of vintage computers - only a few classic Macs, and a stack of SGI Indigo2's. Also lots of glass monitors of every ilk - and tons (literally) of parts - gears, motors, resistors, eproms, telephone switchboards, LEDs, old ISA controllers, etc.,etc. Wear your boots and gloves [especially if you go in the "employees only" back room] (as usual). > Regrettably, I have neither the available time nor the budget to make the > trip down. I would appreciate hearing from anyone who visits during the > final week to hear how it went. Please give Jay my regards if you see him. I just chatted with Jay by email today - it doesn't look like he'll be there - so this must be a Maurice "event"... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 4 00:57:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:57:15 -0700 Subject: Price = Call Message-ID: Grrr..... I know that prices can change and can be negotiated, but it irks me when people put "Price = Call" all over their web site for *every* single item on it. Why bother to do that? Either publish a price or don't, but don't try to pretend you're publishing a price when you have no intention of doing so. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Feb 4 01:19:19 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 02:19:19 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building Message-ID: <01C62931.69A9A660@mse-d03> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 01:56:23 -0500 (EST) From: der Mouse Subject: Re: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building >> There really should be a requirement for >> licensing of computer owners/users - if you can't prove you can >> secure a machine properly, you don't get to own one... >It's only when they connect to the net - or want to take them on the >public roads - that there's any reason for the State to get involved. You're soooo right!!! We have waaaayyy too much freedom and not nearly enough State control!!! Programmers should of course also be licensed and only State-approved languages and programs should be permitted. You should also not be allowed to access the 'Net with anything other than an Intel-inside PC-compatible meeting State-approved specs and running State-approved security software (with built-in provisions for bypassing and access by any State agency that wants it, of course). I'm sure this would stop every hacker & virus-writer cold, just like our billion-dollar-plus (original cost estimate: 2 million) gun registry has eradicated all gun-related crime in Canada (especially here in Toronto). Oh, wait - no, it's actually more or less tripled since they brought that in; hmmm... Love the caps on the State, BTW; puts it right up there with the Big Guy/Gal where it belongs... Sheesh... and I made a New Year's resolution to never again get sucked into and contribute to one of these moronic elitist threads... Sorry. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Feb 4 01:54:49 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 02:54:49 -0500 Subject: what bus is this for? Message-ID: <01C62936.914DB6C0@mse-d03> Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:52:22 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: what bus is this for? On 2/3/2006 at 3:30 PM Dwight Elvey wrote: >>Hi >> I think ( but I'm not sure ) that this spacing was >>used for the bus connectors on the KIM-1 and the SYM-1/2. >>Dwight >Could be. I've got an Optimal Technology EP-2A EPROM programmer board that >I believe was intended for use with the KIM-1. It does use that 44-pin >connector. Also used on the AIM65 (and, IIRC, the VIC20) BTW, Issue 7 of the AIM Interactive mag (available on Rich's site) had the schematic & software (in Forth) for a very simple 2716/2532(2732) EPROM programmer; 2 TTL & CMOS chips and two relays (!). mike From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Feb 4 01:55:15 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 02:55:15 -0500 Subject: Favorite DOS batch language Message-ID: <01C62936.92511D00@mse-d03> Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 16:58:31 -0800 (PST) From: "Peter C. Wallace" Subject: Re: Favorite DOS batch language >On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Does anyone have any favorites when it comes to extending MS-DOS's batch >> language? >4DOS >Does you file name parsing plus stuff like: >copy frap*.foo brap*.goo >Peter Wallace Hmmm, I can do that with MS-DOS; what am I missing? mike From CaptnZilog at aol.com Sat Feb 4 07:37:11 2006 From: CaptnZilog at aol.com (Peter Hufnagel) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 08:37:11 -0500 Subject: free stuff Message-ID: <43E4AE07.5050403@aol.com> Found another box of TK50 tapes, so figured I'd ask again if anyone is interested, contact me. Also have a couple of external SCSI tk50 drives I could part with, and a VaxStation2000, with a 19" vax monitor (monitor is probably prohibitively expensive to ship, but anyone near CT who wants both, and keyboard/mouse, etc, I'd give preference to parting with both together). Also tons of 90M DAT tapes, if anyone is interested. Also for anyone near CT, I have a compaq 1600, dual 600mhz cpu's, all 5 drive trays (one 4gig drive dead, but I think I have one to replace it with), and I'll toss in a 3200-raid controller. Free to anyone who wants to pick it up, or meet someplace. I'd consider shipping it if someone wants to cover the shipping costs. And a pair of Mac IIsi's, and three MacSE/30's, all with NIC's (at least one of the SE/30's has NetBSD on it). Free, just looking to clean house (keeping my quadra 650). And anyone who might be looking for TEK service manuals, the old job was tossing several xerox-paper boxes of them out, I'll try to make a list, but if you're looking feel free to ask. Also have some plugins for the 7000 series O-scopes, probably take a few bucks for those, but I can certainly come up with a list. -- Pete From tfuller at kalittaair.com Thu Feb 2 07:17:05 2006 From: tfuller at kalittaair.com (Telia Fuller) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:17:05 -0500 Subject: DEC Stuff available in MA ... Part #1 Message-ID: <6172C36FA574C0408E02F23B34F7CE840F6EE1@ntserver05.kalittaair.com> Richard, I realize I'm probably a little later but non the less, I'm interested in those Vt 320 Terminals that you mentioned. If by chance they are still available pls drop me a line or call. Thanks. Telia "T" Fuller Flight Sim Kalitta Air 734 544-7010 x7180 From phufnagel at snet.net Thu Feb 2 09:29:48 2006 From: phufnagel at snet.net (Peter Hufnagel) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 10:29:48 -0500 Subject: more machines for good homes Message-ID: <43E2256C.7080104@snet.net> I have some machines to give to good homes... a pair of Mac IIsi's (one has NetBSD loaded on it, probably 1.3.2, if my memory serves me, the other I had as a "spare" in case the 1st died). The one has a working NIC in it, I think I have one for the other box as well. an HP425t and an HP400, just the machine, plus I think I have a 425t downstairs with a monitor on it (probably not worth shipping the monitor, but anyone in the CT area could pick up or I could meet if it was like RI/MA/NY/upper-NJ area). I also have a few Mac SE/30's, one has NetBSD on it (again, I think 1.3.x), the other might too, with NIC cards in them (I think I have 3 of them, one might not have a NIC). Any interest, email me. - Pete From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Feb 2 12:23:00 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:23:00 -0500 Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery pack) In-Reply-To: References: <000901c6281e$6cefe9b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060202132140.051c1420@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Simon Fryer may have mentioned these words: >On 2/2/06, Richard wrote: > > > I'm thinking things like oh... if you put your wallet on top of device > > X, then all your credit cards will be demagnetized. Stuff like that. > >You need something with a bit of a bigger bang and/or a higher level of >danger. Like, say, for example, ads that advertised ruggedized computers by saying they could survive a drop from the empire state building... Were there any? ;-) That would be a good show... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Thu Feb 2 13:12:22 2006 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:12:22 -0500 Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery pack) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200602021923.k12JNQIs066201@keith.ezwind.net> On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:22:30 -0700, Richard wrote: >In article , > Simon Fryer writes: >> On 2/2/06, Richard wrote: >> >> > I'm thinking things like oh... if you put your wallet on top of device >> > X, then all your credit cards will be demagnetized. Stuff like that. >> >> You need something with a bit of a bigger bang and/or a higher level of dange >r. >"A good way to discharge a capacitor is to use a screwdriver across >the terminals." ??? Like ... A good way to see if anode voltage is up, is to draw a nice ark with a screw driver, just watch what you are touching. or how about: Spark the battery with your keys or some kind of tool to see if it has a full charge yet. My favorite Darwin candidate: liberated thin wall electrical conduit from a construction sight and dragged it to a remote power substation, They could throw them at the big transformers and watch them arc and spark and sometimes blow up real nice like big fuses. They did not have to hit the wires just passing within a foot or two caused momentary arc over. By the third night the burnt remains of the pipe had been found and a guard had been posted. The fun ended quietly with only minor welding like spatter burns evident from the previous nights fun. Myth or Fact, I will never tell :) Bob at ibmcollectables.com >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 2 17:52:02 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 15:52:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <20060202154646.G69212@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20060202235202.94711.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Bert Thomas wrote: > > > "You can't damage hardware by software" > > ever try cycling through ALL of the possible modes > of IBM MDA? I assume you're talking about the routine damaging the monitor. But there are modern viruses that can overclock your ram I'm told. What about the older ones that park your hard drive head, then tell it to do a seek...across the entire platter! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Thu Feb 2 20:11:06 2006 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 21:11:06 -0500 Subject: Job openings in wireless/signal/embedded area? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20060202210824.0443a0f8@boff-net.dhs.org> Should look at IBM in NY state or some of the other companies in the hudson valley area. They seem to be hiring (or at least their sub contractors) every few months for guys like you. I see ads in Dice.com, simplyhired.com, monster.com, hotjobs.com and careerbuilder.com. -John Boffemmyer IV At 03:01 PM 2/2/2006, you wrote: >Folks, > I am looking for a job. If you know job openings I would appreciate >it if you could let me know. I hold a master's degree in wireless >communications and you know I am also skilled in embedded/DSP area. >Take a look of www.mscpscsi.com if you are suspecious of that :) > >vax, 9000 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/248 - Release Date: 2/1/2006 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 2 20:25:03 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 18:25:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building Message-ID: <20060203022503.98377.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> BAKELITE ROOLZ!!! --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > I knew a guy who used to collect and refurbish old radios, but he didn't > > bother with anything that had plastic cases. > > Probably because the plastic used on old radios is amongst the worst ever > made. No fault of theirs, of course - plastic back then and plastic now > are very different animals. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 3 11:15:40 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 09:15:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060203171540.13460.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- William Donzelli wrote: > > Your comment sent me to the bathroom vanity, > where, in a bottom drawer, my > > wife has an old transistor radio with leather case > and with a slightly > > cracked case back. On the front is "ALL > TRANSISTOR" on the back is "NT-6B > > Nippon Electric Co., Ltd. JAPAN". Does anyone > collect old Japanese > > transistor radios? This one still works, but > probably doesn't put out more > > than about 50 mw of sound. > > Discrete transistors are no fun in radios. They are > only fun in computers. O please. Trannys rock! I don't collect old radios per se, but that seems like an interesting piece. NEC. Usually you see other names like Panasonic etc. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Fri Feb 3 12:50:59 2006 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 13:50:59 -0500 Subject: It will be a while before Digital TV reaches the 10 year mark and be on topic again :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200602031902.k13J22pB096187@keith.ezwind.net> So here is my 2cents .. We live in a cable market, in an urban area, with a TV lifestyle :) I have a cable modem and a splitter running an ATI all-in-wonder card and am very happy with basic cable in a 4 - 6" window on the far left 20" monitor here in my cave. NTSC picture quality is of little importance to me, most of the time the picture is covered with what ever I am doing on that desktop and I am only listening to it. The TV window is never larger than about 8" when I am active watching Si-Fi or Discovery. I wander from CNBC, to Discovery, to FOXnews, to Si-Fi, CNN, to History, from when I get up in the morning and check the monitors, until last glance at the screens before going to bed. I do not conceder basic cable to be entertainment, but a primary information source on a wide range of subjects. If I want entertainment, I join my wife in her room. I check in here during commercials or between shows to deal with e-mail and return calls :) SheWhoMustBeObayed has a 4 year old RCA Big Glass 38" wide screen HDTV with a HD-DirectTV tuner built in. We live in a market with ABC,CBS,NBC,PBS1-4, and FOX DTV on-air transmitters I can see with rabit-ears. We rarely ever watch anything on the big screen that set that is not 1080i HD or DTV at the least. If we had a PAL here in the States, I do not think on-air HD tv would have ever become a reality But NTSC is easy to replace. Where else would the munies get their new wi-fi space. They would have had problems kicking the hams out of their air space :) We purchased the RCA about 4 years back, when the first CBS local went on the AIR and got a new DSS dish at the same time. HBO and HDnet were the only HD choices at the time, Showtime came a year latter when I got the third head and upgraded for the disk. Now it is 4+ years latter and I would never watch analog tv for entertainment again, I have begun going to some movies and being concerned about the graininess. Eye Candy of all kinds, has become addicting, we have been thinking of getting the DirectTV-HD tivo, but I successfully removed video recording from the house when we went HD and it has been nice not to have to deal with it :-) Now to put this back on topic with a request ..... Well kind of ... I am still on the lookout for examples of the IBM 13 Stripe logos (google ThirteenStripers if you are clueless). Ok, all you IBMers out there, drag out those old collectables and take a look. References to any early TSS/360 - 360/67 related documentation using the ThirteenStriper would make me very happy. While you are at it if you find any early block M logos with the old flat bottom M please let me know ! I would like to assemble a photo gallery of known examples. Thanks Bob From bill_mcdermith at mcdermith.net Fri Feb 3 17:04:51 2006 From: bill_mcdermith at mcdermith.net (Bill McDermith) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 16:04:51 -0700 Subject: Road Trips In-Reply-To: <20060203140455.U48489@racsys.rachors.com> References: <200601290502.k0T5253x034557@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20060203140455.U48489@racsys.rachors.com> Message-ID: <43E3E193.9030303@mcdermith.net> On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Mark Tapley wrote: > How many of you have done a road trip to get equipment? > - travelled 750 miles? Colorado Springs, CO to St. Louis, MO to drop off HP2100 Minis to someone who could actually use them (see below) Mapquest says 835 miles each way, though it seemed longer... This, of course, doesn't really qualify as I didn't take anything home on the return trip, not wanting to promote domestic violence... (see below) > - travelled 1,200+ miles each way? Colorado Springs, CO to Toronto, Ontario, Canada for HP2100 Minis before my wife actually saw how big they really were... Mapquest says 1578 miles each way, though it did seem longer :-) Bill From phufnagel at snet.net Fri Feb 3 19:40:31 2006 From: phufnagel at snet.net (Peter Hufnagel) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2006 20:40:31 -0500 Subject: free stuff Message-ID: <43E4060F.7040607@snet.net> Found another box of TK50 tapes, so figured I'd ask again if anyone is interested, contact me. Also have a couple of external SCSI tk50 drives I could part with, and a VaxStation2000, with a 19" vax monitor (monitor is probably prohibitively expensive to ship, but anyone near CT who wants both, and keyboard/mouse, etc, I'd give preference to parting with both together). Also tons of 90M DAT tapes, if anyone is interested. Also for anyone near CT, I have a compaq 1600, dual 600mhz cpu's, all 5 drive trays (one 4gig drive dead, but I think I have one to replace it with), and I'll toss in a 3200-raid controller. Free to anyone who wants to pick it up, or meet someplace. I'd consider shipping it if someone wants to cover the shipping costs. And a pair of Mac IIsi's, and three MacSE/30's, all with NIC's (at least one of the SE/30's has NetBSD on it). Free, just looking to clean house (keeping my quadra 650). And anyone who might be looking for TEK service manuals, the old job was tossing several xerox-paper boxes of them out, I'll try to make a list, but if you're looking feel free to ask. Also have some plugins for the 7000 series O-scopes, probably take a few bucks for those, but I can certainly come up with a list. -- Pete From wernerbusch at t-online.de Sat Feb 4 05:28:09 2006 From: wernerbusch at t-online.de (werner busch) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 12:28:09 +0100 Subject: emulator Message-ID: <004d01c6297e$13b6c100$0201a8c0@dududidi> Dear Sirs, we need Your help for analyzing a the software of a control unit. We are a German Company and the unit is not longer supported by developer. ( company is down). Target is to analyze some parts of the software and make some little changes. ( change 2 parameters dirct in software). The cpu on control unit is a NEC V25 / V25+ (80186 derivate, 84-pin PLCC ), software is on eeprom 512 KByte. We want to trace the running program, analyze some parts, see registers etc. Is this possible with one of your systems ? Please tell us what we need to reach our target and what are the price for the system we need. Kind Regards Busch-Automation Werner Busch From jim.isbell at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 09:18:40 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 09:18:40 -0600 Subject: Price = Call In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is always my opinion that they are NOT proud of the price so I dont call. On 2/4/06, Richard wrote: > Grrr..... I know that prices can change and can be negotiated, but it > irks me when people put "Price = Call" all over their web site for > *every* single item on it. Why bother to do that? Either publish a > price or don't, but don't try to pretend you're publishing a price > when you have no intention of doing so. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 09:33:30 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 10:33:30 -0500 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060202132140.051c1420@mail.30below.com> References: <000901c6281e$6cefe9b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <5.1.0.14.2.20060202132140.051c1420@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <43E4C94A.6000008@gmail.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Simon Fryer may have mentioned these words: > >> On 2/2/06, Richard wrote: >> >> > I'm thinking things like oh... if you put your wallet on top of device >> > X, then all your credit cards will be demagnetized. Stuff like that. >> >> You need something with a bit of a bigger bang and/or a higher level >> of danger. > > > Like, say, for example, ads that advertised ruggedized computers by > saying they could survive a drop from the empire state building... > > Were there any? ;-) That would be a good show... I doubt that's even possible. Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Feb 4 10:43:42 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 11:43:42 -0500 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <43E4C94A.6000008@gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060202132140.051c1420@mail.30below.com> <43E4C94A.6000008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200602041143.42115.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 04 February 2006 10:33, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Rumor has it that Simon Fryer may have mentioned these words: > >> On 2/2/06, Richard wrote: > >> > I'm thinking things like oh... if you put your wallet on top of device > >> > X, then all your credit cards will be demagnetized. Stuff like that. > >> > >> You need something with a bit of a bigger bang and/or a higher level > >> of danger. > > > > Like, say, for example, ads that advertised ruggedized computers by > > saying they could survive a drop from the empire state building... > > > > Were there any? ;-) That would be a good show... > > I doubt that's even possible. If it had some distance-finding radar/sonar, and a parachute, as standard equipment, then it probably could (or was just shaped appropriately). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Feb 4 10:51:27 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 11:51:27 -0500 Subject: Help needed in Albany, NY. Message-ID: <200602041151.27813.pat@computer-refuge.org> Hey, I know some of you are in upstate New York... i've got something (IBM gear) that I want to get, which demands pickup-only in Albany. Is anyone willing to help with arranging freight shipping for that? The stuff needs to probably be palletized, banded, and shrink wrapped- should be 2 pallets of stuff (3 units)- and possibly dropped off at a freight depot. Contact me off-list if you're willing to help. Thanks, Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat Feb 4 11:01:06 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 12:01:06 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <01C62931.69A9A660@mse-d03> References: <01C62931.69A9A660@mse-d03> Message-ID: <200602041201.07012.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 04 February 2006 02:19 am, M H Stein wrote: > I'm sure this would stop every hacker & virus-writer cold, just like our > billion-dollar-plus (original cost estimate: 2 million) gun registry has > eradicated all gun-related crime in Canada (especially here in Toronto). > Oh, wait - no, it's actually more or less tripled since they brought that > in; hmmm... Canadian? I was told by a fella I know there that he heard about one guy who registered his _soldering gun_... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 4 11:08:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 09:08:28 -0800 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <43E4C94A.6000008@gmail.com> References: <000901c6281e$6cefe9b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <5.1.0.14.2.20060202132140.051c1420@mail.30below.com> <43E4C94A.6000008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200602040908280883.5CBE15A5@10.0.0.252> On 2/4/2006 at 10:33 AM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >I doubt that's even possible. Atttach the thing to a sufficient number of helium ballons and even a Gateway laptop would survive such a drop... :) Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat Feb 4 11:06:30 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 12:06:30 -0500 Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery pack) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060202132140.051c1420@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060202132140.051c1420@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200602041206.30714.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 02 February 2006 01:23 pm, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Simon Fryer may have mentioned these words: > >On 2/2/06, Richard wrote: > > > I'm thinking things like oh... if you put your wallet on top of device > > > X, then all your credit cards will be demagnetized. Stuff like that. > > > >You need something with a bit of a bigger bang and/or a higher level of > >danger. > > Like, say, for example, ads that advertised ruggedized computers by saying > they could survive a drop from the empire state building... > > Were there any? ;-) That would be a good show... There was some "event" out on the west coast a while back where they did just that sort of thing, dropping computers off of the top of a building. I remember seeing an announcement for it, don't recall if the followup video that was promised ever materialized or not. Sounds like it might have been fun to watch, from a safe distance, anyhow... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sat Feb 4 11:58:57 2006 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 12:58:57 -0500 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans Message-ID: <20060204175857.854492012338@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Richard wrote: > I believe you are correct based on this picture: > this picture is for a normal (Philips) cassette player (or similar) the particular drive is totally different in that the tape catridge itself contains a belt that moves the two spools. Here is a picture of such a tape drive: http://www.series80.org/Articles/tape-cartridge-lr.gif The HP2648A uses these cartridges as you can see on page 11-1 of the HP2648A user's manual (available at: http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=423 Now to repair the capstan you may wish to refer to this page: http://www.series80.org/Articles/capstan-repair.html **vp From ygehrich at yahoo.com Sat Feb 4 13:11:31 2006 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 14:11:31 -0500 Subject: Juki 6100 printer on e-bay In-Reply-To: <43E3E193.9030303@mcdermith.net> References: <200601290502.k0T5253x034557@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20060203140455.U48489@racsys.rachors.com> <43E3E193.9030303@mcdermith.net> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060204141041.042d6ed0@yahoo.com> Juki 6100 printer for Commodore From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Feb 4 14:07:08 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 15:07:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mike Quinn Electronics -- one last chance In-Reply-To: <200602032140.18988.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: > Still? Whereabouts are these places located? http://www.leedselect.com/ FSIW is by appointment only. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From recycler at swbell.net Sat Feb 4 15:32:09 2006 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 15:32:09 -0600 Subject: Mitron STD1600 9-track - manuals and cables and software found Message-ID: <43E51D59.2010305@swbell.net> Hi, Whomever got the as-new Mitron STD1600 9-track from me, I found the books and cables. software is on the PC. Please contact me by phone to receive the items. Patrick Jankowiak 214-763-4764 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 4 15:59:44 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 13:59:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <20060202235202.94711.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060202235202.94711.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060204135339.F95695@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Chris M wrote: > I assume you're talking about the routine damaging > the monitor. But there are modern viruses that can > overclock your ram I'm told. What about the older ones > that park your hard drive head, then tell it to do a > seek...across the entire platter! Moving the head to cylinder #306 ("parking the head"), and then moving it to cylinder 0 won't damage anything on my machines. Howzbout: "reflashing" the BIOS? Although that does NOT actually damage any hardware, on some machines the BIOS would then have to be unsoldered, and then reflashed on a different (functioning) machine. a bit more hassle than an erased MBR, or a wiped CMOS on a machine without a "SETUP" in ROM. From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Feb 4 16:19:47 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 16:19:47 -0600 Subject: DEC Stuff available in MA ... Part #1 In-Reply-To: <6172C36FA574C0408E02F23B34F7CE840F6EE1@ntserver05.kalittaair.com> References: <6172C36FA574C0408E02F23B34F7CE840F6EE1@ntserver05.kalittaair.com> Message-ID: <43E52883.1050401@mdrconsult.com> Telia Fuller wrote: > Richard, > > I realize I'm probably a little later but non the less, I'm interested > in those Vt 320 Terminals that you mentioned. If by chance they are > still available pls drop me a line or call. Thanks. Hi. If Richard doesn't have one left, I can help you out. I'm not sure I have a spare LK201 keyboard, but I do have a VT320 you can have for the price of shipping & packaging. Shipping would be from Central Texas. Doc Shipley From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Feb 4 16:29:00 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 16:29:00 -0600 Subject: NCR 53C400 or FD 9C50 DataSheets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E52AAC.50706@brutman.com> Does anybody have datasheets or application notes for these two? The NCR chip was used on many SCSI controllers. The FD 9C50 was used on their 8 bit SCSI products. Thanks, Mike From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 4 16:32:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 14:32:52 -0800 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <20060204135339.F95695@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060202235202.94711.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <20060204135339.F95695@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200602041432520778.5DE7196D@10.0.0.252> On 2/4/2006 at 1:59 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >Moving the head to cylinder #306 ("parking the head"), >and then moving it to cylinder 0 won't damage anything on my machines. I've got a couple of 8" floppy drives where attempting to seek beyond cylinder 77 will cause the heads to "bounce" back to cylinder 55 or so. I don't think it hurts anything, but it is kind of neat to watch. ...and I've got a couple of 5.25" floppies where seeking to anything past about cylinder 84/42 (depending on the drive) will cause the head to jam, requiring manual intervention to free it. I suppose that one could pound a hole through a ribbon or paper with an impact printer printing over and over at the same spot. And line printers with carriage control tapes where someone forgot to punch a hole could run through a box of paper in no time on a "skip to channel" command. But neither of those is anything more than an annoyance. I'm still looking for that magical "self destruct sequence"... Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat Feb 4 16:32:26 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 17:32:26 -0500 Subject: Juki 6100 printer on e-bay In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060204141041.042d6ed0@yahoo.com> References: <200601290502.k0T5253x034557@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43E3E193.9030303@mcdermith.net> <7.0.1.0.2.20060204141041.042d6ed0@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200602041732.26210.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 04 February 2006 02:11 pm, Gene Ehrich wrote: > ame=STRK:MESE:IT>Juki 6100 printer for > ame=STRK:MESE:IT>Commodore Is there much interest in this stuff at all? I've scrapped some of that sort of thing (if anybody needs any model-specific parts...) and I also have a couple of big old printers in storage, one being an NEC "Spinwriter" (uses a thing they called a "thimble" instead of a daisywheel but it's the same idea) that I know works and another one that's comparable in size that's a daisywheel but I forget if it works or not. I was going to scrap these out, but if there's any interest I'd be happy to part with them instead... Contact me off-list if so. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 4 16:40:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 14:40:52 -0800 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: <20060204175857.854492012338@mail.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20060204175857.854492012338@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <200602041440520252.5DEE6A5A@10.0.0.252> I'm a little curious--what kind of success might one have reading old (20+ years) HP tapes written on an HP9835? I was asked this recently and I opined that based on what I'd heard, particularly from the HP calculator group, that the chances of retrieving error-free data was not all that good. Was I accurate? Or are the 98xx tapes an exception? Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat Feb 4 16:51:20 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 17:51:20 -0500 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <200602041432520778.5DE7196D@10.0.0.252> References: <20060202235202.94711.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <20060204135339.F95695@shell.lmi.net> <200602041432520778.5DE7196D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200602041751.20116.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 04 February 2006 05:32 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ...and I've got a couple of 5.25" floppies where seeking to anything past > about cylinder 84/42 (depending on the drive) will cause the head to jam, > requiring manual intervention to free it. I used to see this fairly often when I was fixing commodore stuff, the head on the 1541 would get jammed to the inside, and one would have to open the case and manually move it out before the drive would work again. > I suppose that one could pound a hole through a ribbon or paper with an > impact printer printing over and over at the same spot. Done that one, too... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 4 17:15:24 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 23:15:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Juki 6100 printer on e-bay In-Reply-To: <200602041732.26210.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Feb 4, 6 05:32:26 pm Message-ID: > > On Saturday 04 February 2006 02:11 pm, Gene Ehrich wrote: > > >ame=STRK:MESE:IT>Juki 6100 printer for > > >ame=STRK:MESE:IT>Commodore > > Is there much interest in this stuff at all? I've scrapped some of that sort As a primarily hardware-based person, I do find _some_ old peripherals to be as interesting as old computers. I think the things that are likely to be of interest are : 1) Peripherals that were made by the same company as the processor. Many PDP11 hackers have at least some DEC disk drives and terminals on their machines, dittoe HP minicomputer collectors, etc. 2) Peripherals that had interesting design consturctional features. An example that I have (and have jsut restored) is the HP7245 printer/plotter. It's a combined dot-matrix thermal printer _and_ a thermal vector plotter. I know of no other machine like it (and being an HP, it's beautifully made). Other examples would be the Versatec V80 electrostatic printers, Sanders letter-quality dot matrix printers, etc 3) Peripherals that are historically significant. I'll let others suggest models here, since this is not my main interest. Alas third party printers are unlikely to be of much interest since they are large and don't seem to have much special about them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 4 16:53:02 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 22:53:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <20060202235202.94711.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 2, 6 03:52:02 pm Message-ID: > overclock your ram I'm told. What about the older ones > that park your hard drive head, then tell it to do a > seek...across the entire platter! What harm does that do, unless done repeatedly for a long enough time (which would wear out the positioner beariongs, I suppose). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 4 16:56:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 22:56:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: <20060203233953.41734.qmail@web81107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "Bob Rosenbloom" at Feb 3, 6 03:39:53 pm Message-ID: > > I fixed mine my cleaning off the goo and sliding a > thick piece of surgical tubing over the pinch roller. > I had to strech the tubing quite a bit, but it works > just fine. I have heard other people use o-rings but I > don't know they keep them on. I use O-rings to rebuild the 9810 card reader roller, but I turn a new hub from brass rod with a groove to take the O-ring.... Making a complete new metal hub for the tape drive would be a lot harder, due to the tachometer disk at the bottom end (I am not sure how easy it would be to move this to the new metal hub). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 4 17:19:54 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 23:19:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: <200602041440520252.5DEE6A5A@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 4, 6 02:40:52 pm Message-ID: > > I'm a little curious--what kind of success might one have reading old (20+ > years) HP tapes written on an HP9835? I was asked this recently and I > opined that based on what I'd heard, particularly from the HP calculator > group, that the chances of retrieving error-free data was not all that > good. > > Was I accurate? Or are the 98xx tapes an exception? Alas fairly low. The tapes for the 98x5 machines are much the same construction as those for the HP85. The problem is that the belt sticks to the oxide layer on the tape, and/or the tape sticks together, and you get major loss of the magnetic coating when you try to read the tape. Needless to say this makes it unreadable. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 4 17:30:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 15:30:31 -0800 Subject: NCR 53C400 or FD 9C50 DataSheets In-Reply-To: <43E52AAC.50706@brutman.com> References: <43E52AAC.50706@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200602041530310906.5E1BE183@10.0.0.252> On 2/4/2006 at 4:29 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: >Does anybody have datasheets or application notes for these two? The >NCR chip was used on many SCSI controllers. The FD 9C50 was used on >their 8 bit SCSI products. What with the game of hot potato that NCR/SymBIOS/Adaptec/LSI Logic turned into, it's very difficult to find datasheets for NCR SCSI ICs, particularly the later ones. IIRC, if what you're wondering about is programming, I seem to remember that the 53C400 supports 5380 programming as a subset. And THAT chip can be found: http://www.national.com/ds/DP/DP5380.pdf Don't know about the Future Domain part, though. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 4 17:58:28 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 23:58:28 +0000 Subject: Intel 80286 "DCU" Multibus system Message-ID: <43E53FA4.8080605@yahoo.co.uk> Anyone know anything about these? It's a Multibus system, with an 80286 CPU board inside, Ethernet board, ST506/412 disk controller, floppy, and 40MB hard disk. Date seems to be 1990, which seems a little late for a '286 system. Two serial ports on the back, Ethernet, Centronics, and another DB25 (serial console?). Options on the back for another 19 DB25 ports, 3 larger ports (poss. external disks?), and a DA15 (another Ethernet card I assume) No apparent model number for the whole box, but a label on the front just says: Node name: DCU-NODE ... and a network address. On the underside there's what seems to be a board/part listing: PSYP310-90C iSBC286/12 SCX110 SBX344A SBC552A SBC214 40Mb HH Winchester 360Kb HH floppy ****ESYP310BYATLP**** The CPU board has an extra 1MB memory board fitted, a daughterboard which goes to the possible-console connector, and a battery-backed clock card (luckily there's minimum damage from battery corrosion) Google seems spectacularly unhelpful. Anyone know if "DCU" is meaningful, or if there was any particular target market for these systems? (we need to do PSU checks etc. and find out if that is a serial console before seeing if it'll fire up) Given the port options on the back it was obviously designed to cater for several users - but if it was just an off the shelf UNIX/other server it seems strange that the case wasn't given any badge, overall model label etc. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 4 18:03:07 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 00:03:07 +0000 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <20060204135339.F95695@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060202235202.94711.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <20060204135339.F95695@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <43E540BB.1070703@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Chris M wrote: > Howzbout: "reflashing" the BIOS? Not been following this thread too closely, so I'm probably out of context, but I bet you could download new firmware into some SCSI drives (and IDE too?) that would kill them - I'm not sure if you could go to the extent of something like disabling spindle speed checks, but I suppose you could tell the drive to repeatedly seek heads into areas that they're not supposed to go... From lee at geekdot.com Sat Feb 4 18:15:46 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (lee at geekdot.com) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 01:15:46 +0100 (CET) Subject: Intel 80286 "DCU" Multibus system Message-ID: <4237.86.139.194.172.1139098546.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > Anyone know if "DCU" is meaningful Data Concentrator Unit springs to mind, especially with the many ports option. Lee. .. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Feb 4 18:27:33 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 16:27:33 -0800 Subject: Emulex UC13 PDF? Message-ID: <200602041627.33870.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Anyone have a PDF of an Emulex UC13 Manual? If so, please email me a copy. If it's too big for your email system, let me know and I can pick it up from your ftp site or I'll point you to an upload ftp site. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 4 19:20:37 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 01:20:37 +0000 Subject: Intel 80286 "DCU" Multibus system In-Reply-To: <4237.86.139.194.172.1139098546.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <4237.86.139.194.172.1139098546.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <43E552E5.5090503@yahoo.co.uk> lee at geekdot.com wrote: >> Anyone know if "DCU" is meaningful > > Data Concentrator Unit springs to mind, especially with the many ports > option. Hmm, true. I've made a bit of progress - apparently the system as a whole is an Intel 310. Still not much google info, but I'm on my way to bitsavers in a sec... cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 4 20:08:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 18:08:57 -0800 Subject: Qume DataTrack 8 info needed Message-ID: <200602041808570760.5EACEC7B@10.0.0.252> Does anyone out there have at least a schematic of a Qume DT-8 drive? My favorite just packed up--no read, no write, but positions and loads the heads just fine. Bitsavers appears to have the 242 and 842 QT drives online, but not the DT-8. Cheers, Chuck From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Feb 4 21:21:58 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 21:21:58 Subject: IPC manuals? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060204212158.461f2224@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anyone if the HP IPC manuals are scanned and posted online somewhere? I THOUGHT they were but can't find them. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Feb 4 21:29:57 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 21:29:57 Subject: Price = Call In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060204212957.32e71dd8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:57 PM 2/3/06 -0700, you wrote: >Grrr..... I know that prices can change and can be negotiated, but it >irks me when people put "Price = Call" all over their web site for >*every* single item on it. Why bother to do that? Either publish a >price or don't, but don't try to pretend you're publishing a price >when you have no intention of doing so. I have NEVER found a place like that that didn't have an outragous price. The same goes for gas stations and stores that don't post their prices. Now if I find somewhere that doesn't have posted prices I don't even ask. I just go to the next place. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Feb 4 21:33:30 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 21:33:30 Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <01C62931.69A9A660@mse-d03> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060204213330.461f5ad2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:19 AM 2/4/06 -0500, Mike wrote: >Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2006 01:56:23 -0500 (EST) >From: der Mouse >Subject: Re: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building > >>> There really should be a requirement for >>> licensing of computer owners/users - if you can't prove you can >>> secure a machine properly, you don't get to own one... > >>It's only when they connect to the net - or want to take them on the >>public roads - that there's any reason for the State to get involved. > >You're soooo right!!! We have waaaayyy too much freedom and not nearly >enough State control!!! Programmers should of course also be licensed and >only State-approved languages and programs should be permitted. You should >also not be allowed to access the 'Net with anything other than an Intel-inside >PC-compatible meeting State-approved specs and running State-approved >security software (with built-in provisions for bypassing and access by >any State agency that wants it, of course). > >I'm sure this would stop every hacker & virus-writer cold, just like our >billion-dollar-plus (original cost estimate: 2 million) gun registry has >eradicated all gun-related crime in Canada (especially here in Toronto). >Oh, wait - no, it's actually more or less tripled since they brought that >in; hmmm... > >Love the caps on the State, BTW; puts it right up there with the Big Guy/Gal >where it belongs... > >Sheesh... and I made a New Year's resolution to never again get sucked >into and contribute to one of these moronic elitist threads... > >Sorry. Don't worry Mike. You didn't contribute to it, you poked holes in it. Joe From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 4 20:58:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 18:58:11 -0800 Subject: Qume DataTrack 8 info needed In-Reply-To: <200602041808570760.5EACEC7B@10.0.0.252> References: <200602041808570760.5EACEC7B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200602041858110344.5ED9FD58@10.0.0.252> At first blush the drive electronics on the DT-8 and 842 seem to be very similar, so I may have what I need from Bitsavers already. Thanks, Chuck From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Feb 4 21:26:10 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 04:26:10 +0100 Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery pack) In-Reply-To: References: <000901c6281e$6cefe9b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <1139109970.16238.6.camel@fortran.babel> On Thu, 2006-02-02 at 18:10 +0000, Simon Fryer wrote: > On 2/2/06, Richard wrote: > > > I'm thinking things like oh... if you put your wallet on top of device > > X, then all your credit cards will be demagnetized. Stuff like that. > > You need something with a bit of a bigger bang and/or a higher level of danger. One tale I hold very dear to my heart is one my granny told me. A friend of my grandmother is very fond of all the alternative cure bullshit out and about. Her cure du jour a while ago was magnet therapy. She bought a magnet therapy bracelet and wore it for a day. Can you guess what happened? :) All her magnetic cards were erased! I guess they improved her economy, if nothing else. ;) -toresbe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Feb 4 22:22:36 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 22:22:36 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: <200602041440520252.5DEE6A5A@10.0.0.252> References: <20060204175857.854492012338@mail.cs.drexel.edu> <20060204175857.854492012338@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060204222236.461f5560@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:40 PM 2/4/06 -0800, you wrote: >I'm a little curious--what kind of success might one have reading old (20+ >years) HP tapes written on an HP9835? I was asked this recently and I >opined that based on what I'd heard, particularly from the HP calculator >group, that the chances of retrieving error-free data was not all that >good. > >Was I accurate? Or are the 98xx tapes an exception? Yes. No. They're ALL the same tapes and there are only two different models of tapes drives (but both are very similar and have the same drive wheel problem). Chances of reading original tapes at all are less than 50-50 in my experience. First, fix the tape drive and test it with a sacrifical tape. Once you KNOW it works*, format a couple of tapes to store the files on (or better yet, hook up a disk drive and save them on disks) then try to read your original tape. Read a file then immediately save it. Repeat until you've saved all the files. Don't play around and try to run the files, read other files or anything else. The chances that you'll be able to read a file a second time are SLIM. I once experimented with 13 or 14 HP tapes (ones that all had good drive bands in them). At least four of them failed within 2 to 3 reads! A few lasted for about 10 or 12 reads (that's about enough to read all the files on a typical tape). Only three lasted longer and only one lasted till the end of the first day and it failed within 3 or 4 days. MANY HP tapes fail to read even once due to bad drive bands, in fact I'd say most of them have that problem. You can replace the drive belt with one from a newer tape but it's a PITA and I've never had much luck with it. But I know others that say that they can replace them and they work ok so I must be doing something wrong. BUT even if you overcome the drive belt problem, the tape will almost cetainly shed the magnetic media and you won't be able to read anything beyond that point since it sees the media-less tapes as an End-Of-Tape hole. VP's webpage has some excellant pictures of these problems at . If anyone gets Gung-Ho and gets properly setup and wants to spend some time recovering files I have a LOT of original HP tapes with HP software. *Oh yeah, FYI the tape drives will work even if the capstan isn't exactly the right size. That is it will write and read tapes formatted in it but it won't be able to read original HP tapes or tapes written in another machine. IIRC the capstan has to be +/- .008" for it to read properly. It's been a long time since I worked on the HP-85 drives and I gave away all my notes but >IIRC< the correct size for the capstan is 0.421" But I may be completely wrong about that. I'm sure some of you have experimented with repairing the drives and you realize that your heat shrink tubing, surgical tubing or whatever you're using only comes in certain thicknesses so it's difficult to get the capstan the exact size that you want. But here's a little secret that I used to use. I would repair the capstan then measure it's o.d. If it was too small then I'd take the tubing off and wrap the capstan with thin cellopane tape. Cut the end so that it matches up with the beginning of the tape and doesn't leave a lump. You can even cut the beginning and end at an angle to minimize any lump. The tape that I used was 0.001" thick so each layer was 0.002" thick (2 sides of the capstan remember). I put on enough layers to exactly make up the difference between the measured o.d. and the desired o.d. When I was rebuilding drives I kept the final size to within +/- 0.001" and EVERY drive that I sent out worked fine. The materials that we're working with aren't entirely consistant and the results aren't always predictable so if the final o.d. was out by more than .001" I tore everything off and started over. I also measured the capstand from several different angles to be sure that it was round. If it wasn't then I'd start over. Yeah, it was a long tedious process. That's why I don't do it any more! Joe > >Cheers, >Chuck > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Feb 4 22:38:06 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 22:38:06 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: <200602041440520252.5DEE6A5A@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060204223806.47871042@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:19 PM 2/4/06 +0000, you wrote: >> >> I'm a little curious--what kind of success might one have reading old (20+ >> years) HP tapes written on an HP9835? I was asked this recently and I >> opined that based on what I'd heard, particularly from the HP calculator >> group, that the chances of retrieving error-free data was not all that >> good. >> >> Was I accurate? Or are the 98xx tapes an exception? > >Alas fairly low. The tapes for the 98x5 machines are much the same >construction as those for the HP85. The problem is that the belt sticks >to the oxide layer on the tape, and/or the tape sticks together, and you >get major loss of the magnetic coating when you try to read the tape. >Needless to say this makes it unreadable. > Tony's right. Two things can happen. First, reading the tape will cause the media to shed but even worse is that if a tape is used with a gooy capstan the goo will work it's way into the tape and gets wound up bewteen the layers of tape on one of the hubs. Then it dries there and the next time that you unwind the tape to that point the dried goo pulls the media off the tape. I've also HEARD that some of the tapes also stick together due to fungus, moisture or other things with the same results. You can deal with the first problem by absolutely minimizing the tape useage. Read each file then save it on another tape or drive. DON'T play around with the drive and tape! As for the second problem I guess you could try unwinding/rewinding each tape by hand to look for any sticking tape but I haven't tried it. It seems like it would be pointless since you probably coudn't do anything about it even if you found a stuck layer. Also the HP-85 tapes and 98xx tapes are EXACTLY the same and have the same PN. So are the ones used in the HP protocall analyzers, spectrum analyzers, 2648 terminals and ALL HP products of that era except for the big DC-600 type tapes used in the HP 9144, etc. They did use a different tape in some earlier products but they were VERY different and immediately recognizable. I have a couple of those drives but I've never seen a tape for them. It was driven like an audio cassette tape via the hubs. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Feb 4 22:51:42 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 22:51:42 Subject: Intel 80286 "DCU" Multibus system In-Reply-To: <43E53FA4.8080605@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060204225142.2dd787a6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:58 PM 2/4/06 +0000, you wrote: > >Anyone know anything about these? I've never heard of them and I collect Multibus cards and systems. Is it an Intel system or does it just use Intel boards? Intel started selling the boards seaparely specificly so that people could build their own systems with them. > PSYP310-90C Are you sure that that's a board number? It sounds like it might be the model number and I've never heard of a board with that number. Intel did build a computer with that model number. I think I have one. I don't have the details handy (and the Intel catalog is rather vague about it anyway). I probably have docs for some of the cards but for now you can look up the cards (and pictures and brief descriptions) here . Can you send or post a picture of the unit? BTW it most likely has iRMX or iRMX86 installed on the system and you'll have to have a paasword to get into it. Speaking from experience :-( More below. It's a Multibus system, with an 80286 CPU >board inside, Ethernet board, ST506/412 disk controller, floppy, and 40MB hard >disk. Date seems to be 1990, which seems a little late for a '286 system. > >Two serial ports on the back, Ethernet, Centronics, and another DB25 (serial >console?). Options on the back for another 19 DB25 ports, 3 larger ports >(poss. external disks?), and a DA15 (another Ethernet card I assume) > >No apparent model number for the whole box, but a label on the front just says: > > Node name: DCU-NODE > >... and a network address. > >On the underside there's what seems to be a board/part listing: > > iSBC286/12 > SCX110 > SBX344A > SBC552A > SBC214 > 40Mb HH Winchester > 360Kb HH floppy > ****ESYP310BYATLP**** > >The CPU board has an extra 1MB memory board fitted, a daughterboard which goes >to the possible-console connector, and a battery-backed clock card (luckily >there's minimum damage from battery corrosion) > >Google seems spectacularly unhelpful. Anyone know if "DCU" is meaningful, or >if there was any particular target market for these systems? (we need to do >PSU checks etc. and find out if that is a serial console before seeing if >it'll fire up) > >Given the port options on the back it was obviously designed to cater for >several users - but if it was just an off the shelf UNIX/other server it seems >strange that the case wasn't given any badge, overall model label etc. The Intel computers (other than the MDSs) that I have only have a plastic Intel badge on them and no other markings except the board list on the bottom of the case. Joe > >cheers > >Jules > From waisun.chia at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 22:41:27 2006 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 12:41:27 +0800 Subject: MS11-LD (M7891-DA) Message-ID: Quick one: Can I plug a M7891-DA into a 11/44? This is supposed to be 128kW MOS RAM for the 11/24 and 11/34A... BTW, what kinds of memory options/expansions does a 11/44 have? From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 22:45:29 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 23:45:29 -0500 Subject: Job openings in wireless/signal/embedded area? In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20060202210824.0443a0f8@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <7.0.0.16.2.20060202210824.0443a0f8@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: On 2/2/06, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Should look at IBM in NY state or some of the other companies in the > hudson valley area. They seem to be hiring (or at least their sub > contractors) every few months for guys like you. I see ads in > Dice.com, simplyhired.com, monster.com, hotjobs.com and careerbuilder.com. > -John Boffemmyer IV > Thank you! I will take a look. Have a nice day vax, 9000 From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 4 22:45:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 21:45:43 -0700 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 04 Feb 2006 23:19:54 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > > I'm a little curious--what kind of success might one have reading old (20+ > > years) HP tapes written on an HP9835? I was asked this recently and I > > opined that based on what I'd heard, particularly from the HP calculator > > group, that the chances of retrieving error-free data was not all that > > good. > > > > Was I accurate? Or are the 98xx tapes an exception? > > Alas fairly low. The tapes for the 98x5 machines are much the same > construction as those for the HP85. The problem is that the belt sticks > to the oxide layer on the tape, and/or the tape sticks together, and you > get major loss of the magnetic coating when you try to read the tape. > Needless to say this makes it unreadable. Anyone tried readtapes.com with one? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 4 22:51:02 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 21:51:02 -0700 Subject: Juki 6100 printer on e-bay In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 04 Feb 2006 23:15:24 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Alas third party printers are unlikely to be of much interest since they > are large and don't seem to have much special about them. Ever been to the Henry Ford Museum in Michigan? You'd be surprised what you learn by seeing the evolution of an item historically by just sitting all the items side-by-side. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From fernande at internet1.net Sat Feb 4 22:54:12 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 23:54:12 -0500 Subject: Free DEC BA123 chassis in Michigan Message-ID: <43E584F4.10801@internet1.net> Hi all, I have a BA123 that I don't need. It's disassembled and didn't look the greatest before being taken apart. The outside panels are a bit warped and dirty/scratched. It looks to be structurally sound, However. I do have the power supply, although, I haven't tried testing it. Pick up only in Battle Creek. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 4 23:00:26 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 21:00:26 -0800 Subject: IPC manuals? Message-ID: <5AEBB65F-467A-49C8-8F46-EB2D14618FD6@bitsavers.org> > Does anyone if the HP IPC manuals are scanned and posted online We exchanged some mail about it, but I needed to clear the backlog of 98x6 stuff first. I have the service manual scanned, but it isn't on line yet. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 4 23:03:18 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 21:03:18 -0800 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans Message-ID: <885B85DD-F397-4B3F-BA69-C376404234A3@bitsavers.org> > Anyone tried readtapes.com with one? John is only set up to read 7 and 9 track 1/2" tapes. From news at computercollector.com Sun Feb 5 00:11:57 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 01:11:57 -0500 Subject: OT but very funny Message-ID: <001101c62a1b$11cda050$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Everyone here should read today's Dilbert. http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20060205.html ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From Tim at Rikers.org Sun Feb 5 00:28:37 2006 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 23:28:37 -0700 Subject: Favorite DOS batch language In-Reply-To: <43E438B7.2030805@oldskool.org> References: <200602031647510169.593C4D2C@10.0.0.252> <43E438B7.2030805@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43E59B15.2030200@Rikers.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > Peter C. Wallace wrote: > >> 4DOS > > > Wholeheartedly agree, but if you plan on doing useful work on sub-386 > PCs you need to find an older version. Somewhere along the way it > became 386-only. I use 4dos 3.x on my 8088. > > 4dos 7.x is free from the author's website. FYI: 7.5 is here: http://www.jpsoft.com/download.html -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From Tim at Rikers.org Sun Feb 5 00:33:38 2006 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 23:33:38 -0700 Subject: Mitron STD1600 9-track - manuals and cables and software found In-Reply-To: <43E51D59.2010305@swbell.net> References: <43E51D59.2010305@swbell.net> Message-ID: <43E59C42.8020904@Rikers.org> I'm still trying to find my dos software for an ATC-16 to drive a pertec interface Cypher M990. If your software happens to be for that card I'm interested. ;-) I owned the DOS version, not the win* version. Patrick Jankowiak wrote: > Hi, > > Whomever got the as-new Mitron STD1600 9-track from me, I found the > books and cables. software is on the PC. > > Please contact me by phone to receive the items. > > Patrick Jankowiak > 214-763-4764 -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 5 00:37:29 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 22:37:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: SE/30 runs OS X Message-ID: <200602050637.WAA12988@floodgap.com> ... sort of. http://www.kaede.sakura.ne.jp/~kidou/mac/macmini01.html -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Specialization is for insects. -- Robert Heinlein -------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 5 00:52:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 22:52:43 -0800 Subject: SE/30 runs OS X In-Reply-To: <200602050637.WAA12988@floodgap.com> References: <200602050637.WAA12988@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200602042252430954.5FB0B5EA@10.0.0.252> On 2/4/2006 at 10:37 PM Cameron Kaiser wrote: >... sort of. > >http://www.kaede.sakura.ne.jp/~kidou/mac/macmini01.html Feh! That's cheating. By the same method, one could make an IBM PC 5150 run OS/X--or a Buck Rogers lunchbox run OS/X, or the box that my last pair of shoes came in run OS/X... Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 5 01:04:23 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2006 23:04:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: SE/30 runs OS X In-Reply-To: <200602042252430954.5FB0B5EA@10.0.0.252> from Chuck Guzis at "Feb 4, 6 10:52:43 pm" Message-ID: <200602050704.XAA20634@floodgap.com> > >... sort of. > > > >http://www.kaede.sakura.ne.jp/~kidou/mac/macmini01.html > > Feh! That's cheating. By the same method, one could make an IBM PC 5150 > run OS/X--or a Buck Rogers lunchbox run OS/X, or the box that my last pair > of shoes came in run OS/X... Well, to make it somewhat fair, an SE/30 could run any of the Unices and then PearPC on top of that. Someone had a 68K booting OS X in this fashion. Obviously speed was not stellar in that configuration ... -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The whippings shall continue until morale improves. ------------------------ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Feb 5 01:09:51 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 07:09:51 +0000 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <1139109970.16238.6.camel@fortran.babel> References: <000901c6281e$6cefe9b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <1139109970.16238.6.camel@fortran.babel> Message-ID: <43E5A4BF.3010403@gjcp.net> Tore S Bekkedal wrote: > On Thu, 2006-02-02 at 18:10 +0000, Simon Fryer wrote: >> On 2/2/06, Richard wrote: >> >>> I'm thinking things like oh... if you put your wallet on top of device >>> X, then all your credit cards will be demagnetized. Stuff like that. >> You need something with a bit of a bigger bang and/or a higher level of danger. > > One tale I hold very dear to my heart is one my granny told me. > > A friend of my grandmother is very fond of all the alternative cure > bullshit out and about. Her cure du jour a while ago was magnet > therapy. > > She bought a magnet therapy bracelet and wore it for a day. > > Can you guess what happened? :) > All her magnetic cards were erased! > > I guess they improved her economy, if nothing else. ;) > > -toresbe I have one of those, kind of plated springy bracelet thing with little balls with magnets in them at the ends. No way is it powerful enough to wipe credit cards, but what it's *great* for is catching falling circlips, washers and other such pingf**kits while working on the car, or LA36. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Feb 5 01:11:59 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 07:11:59 +0000 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E5A53F.6010806@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm a little curious--what kind of success might one have reading old (20+ >> years) HP tapes written on an HP9835? I was asked this recently and I >> opined that based on what I'd heard, particularly from the HP calculator >> group, that the chances of retrieving error-free data was not all that >> good. >> >> Was I accurate? Or are the 98xx tapes an exception? > > Alas fairly low. The tapes for the 98x5 machines are much the same > construction as those for the HP85. The problem is that the belt sticks > to the oxide layer on the tape, and/or the tape sticks together, and you > get major loss of the magnetic coating when you try to read the tape. > Needless to say this makes it unreadable. Is that specific to the HP tapes, or are all the similar tapes just as bad? And is there a way to prevent this, like maybe taking it apart and removing the belt first? Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Feb 5 01:18:22 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 07:18:22 +0000 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <200602041751.20116.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <20060202235202.94711.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <20060204135339.F95695@shell.lmi.net> <200602041432520778.5DE7196D@10.0.0.252> <200602041751.20116.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <43E5A6BE.1070104@gjcp.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Saturday 04 February 2006 05:32 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> ...and I've got a couple of 5.25" floppies where seeking to anything past >> about cylinder 84/42 (depending on the drive) will cause the head to jam, >> requiring manual intervention to free it. > > I used to see this fairly often when I was fixing commodore stuff, the head > on the 1541 would get jammed to the inside, and one would have to open the > case and manually move it out before the drive would work again. > I'm sure I've mentioned before about the 1541 test and alignment disk we used to have in a workshop I used to work at... Basically it had tracks written starting too far out and progressively moving in until they were too far in. They were, I believe, written with "worst case" patterns, and possibly a bit "quiet". The first few tracks on the disk were written fairly hot so that even if the head was a bit out, it would still boot. What would then happen was it would step through the disk a couple of times, working out how "close" the head was by determining which track gave the least CRC errors. Then it would work out which way the head needed to be moved, wind it back and then smack it off the opposite end stop a few times. Then it would cycle through its calibration reading again, and repeat until it was done. Brutal, but it worked surprisingly well. Gordon. From news at computercollector.com Sun Feb 5 02:08:03 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 03:08:03 -0500 Subject: Update on VCF East 3.0 Message-ID: <001f01c62a2b$4a246fa0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Here's an update... - We have nine exhibitors already signed up. Visit the VCF web site at http://www.vintage.org/2006/east/exhibit.php to sign up now. We're close to finalizing the prices; it will probably be $25 to exhibit (as a non-profit group we REALLY need the funds.) - We arranged for discounted rooms (Fri., May 12 - Sun., May 14) at the nearby Holiday Inn (where these is good food and broadband) -- call (732) 544-9300 and tell them it's for the Vintage Computer Festival. - In addition to the antique computers, there will be a special area with small exhibits from the other groups headquarted at our venue (the InfoAge Learning Center) which includes historic collections of military vehicles, diving gear, radio, and more. - Although this VCF is only one day (Sat., May 13), there will still be a post-VCF event for exhibitors and VIPs that evening. - We haven't yet started signing up speakers, but that will begin soon. Meanwhile we are trying to get some celebrity speakers (relatively speaking!) with an emphasis on computing history local to the east coast. Let your imagination run wild. :) ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 5 03:57:58 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 01:57:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <43E5A6BE.1070104@gjcp.net> from Gordon JC Pearce at "Feb 5, 6 07:18:22 am" Message-ID: <200602050957.BAA18632@floodgap.com> > I'm sure I've mentioned before about the 1541 test and alignment disk we > used to have in a workshop I used to work at... > > Basically it had tracks written starting too far out and progressively > moving in until they were too far in. They were, I believe, written > with "worst case" patterns, and possibly a bit "quiet". The first few > tracks on the disk were written fairly hot so that even if the head was > a bit out, it would still boot. I've seen something like this. The Epyx Vorpal Toolkit disk used a similar method of software auto-alignment which worked surprisingly effectively. I wrote a tool called Torquemada 1541 that could do this with "normal" disks (assuming the disk was written in God's Holy Pristinely Aligned 1541), but it was relatively blind without the special formatting Vorpal -- and the package you mention -- included, so it wasn't nearly as effective on as wide a range of alignment problems. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Well done is better than well said. -- Benjamin Franklin ------------------- From cc at corti-net.de Sun Feb 5 04:40:40 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 11:40:40 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060203201331.3cdf6712@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <"03 Feb 2006 14:20:07 -0800." <200602031420070771.58B50FF2@10.0.0.252> <3.0.6.16.20060203201331.3cdf6712@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Joe R. wrote: > Don't bother with the old HP tapes. I've never seen a one that worked > more than a couple of days, even NOS ones. And I've tried dozens of them. I My old ones (over 20 years old) work flawlessly. And my NOS ones (3M) work nicely, too. I use them regularly to load some simple programs into a HP1000 system or to transfer files between HP1000 and UNIX. > even got a hold of a SEALED case of 100 new sealed tapes and even those > were useless. The old DECassette tapes hold up pretty good and some of the > old 40Mb DC 2 something,something,something tapes used in the early PC > tape drives will also work in the HPs and about half of them that you find > are good. Again this has been covered extensively on this list and should > be in the archives. ?!?!? The 40MB cartridges (DC-2000) and up do *not* work in those HP drives because they are too big. The tape's 0.25" in these cartridges (QIC), the tape used with the HP drives is called DC-100 and its tape is much smaller (about half the height). A DC-2000 or so called QIC-80 cartridge won't even fit mechanically into a HP drive. On the other hand I would be very happy if someone gave me 100 new or used DC-100 tapes; they are *very* rare, at least where I am. The only thing you have to do with tapes that haven't been used for a long time is to unstick the belt from the spools by heating the cassette. After that they work just fine. Christian From cc at corti-net.de Sun Feb 5 05:04:03 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 12:04:03 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Feb 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > construction as those for the HP85. The problem is that the belt sticks > to the oxide layer on the tape, and/or the tape sticks together, and you > get major loss of the magnetic coating when you try to read the tape. > Needless to say this makes it unreadable. So you try to shred a tape first and after that you begin to think about it? Everyone who *knows* that the belt is sticking opens the cartridge and tries to unstick the belt without damaging the tape. This works very fine by applying heat (similar to baking sticky tapes, but here the tape is not sticky, it's only the belt). And the tapes are fine afterwards. It's how I revived all the original HP cartidges with software for the HP1000 (dated from 1980 to 1985) that I have. I've made backups, of course, but they are still fine. There are other tape cartridges that are really bad, notably DC-300 QIC tapes from around 1977-1982. They have sticky belts *and* sticky tape *and* a belt that will simply tear when the tape is moved. Christian From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Feb 5 06:28:12 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 04:28:12 -0800 Subject: Just won HP 4952A / HP 18179A protocol analyzer/serial adapter Message-ID: > I have one of these at home and am also looking for disk images - > especially the terminal emulator program. they'll be up for a day or two at http://www.bitsavers.org/HP4952A as a dmk and raw images From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 5 08:01:08 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 14:01:08 +0000 Subject: Intel 80286 "DCU" Multibus system In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060204225142.2dd787a6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060204225142.2dd787a6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43E60524.2050000@yahoo.co.uk> Joe R. wrote: > At 11:58 PM 2/4/06 +0000, you wrote: >> Anyone know anything about these? > > I've never heard of them and I collect Multibus cards and systems. I was hoping you'd speak up :) > Is it > an Intel system or does it just use Intel boards? Intel started selling the > boards seaparely specificly so that people could build their own systems > with them. All Intel - seems to be more commonly known as an Intel 310. Couple of pics of the outside at: http://www.patooie.com/temp/intel_310_front.jpg http://www.patooie.com/temp/intel_310_back.jpg >> PSYP310-90C > > Are you sure that that's a board number? It sounds like it might be the > model number and I've never heard of a board with that number. Intel did > build a computer with that model number. Yes, I suspect that's overall model number - or maybe a part number for the case, assuming it was unique to this system. > I probably have docs for some of the cards but for now you can look up > the cards (and pictures and brief descriptions) here > . Thanks - I was looking for that URL as I remember you posting it a few months ago! (Incidentally, I can grab pics of my NCR Tower's multibus boards for you sometime if you want - I think I've got an MSC board here at home, then the machine is over at Bletchley and has the CPU, HPSIO, Ethernet and HPMSC boards in it) > Can you send or post a picture of the unit? see above :) > BTW it most likely has iRMX or iRMX86 installed on the system and you'll > have to have a paasword to get into it. Speaking from experience :-( Yep :-( That or Xenix. Not sure how to get around that one - I can get round passwords on SCSI disks easy enough but I've got no way of hooking that ST506/412 drive to anything more modern in order to modify it :( > The Intel computers (other than the MDSs) that I have only have a > plastic Intel badge on them and no other markings except the board list on > the bottom of the case. Yep, sounds like we have the same thing then... cheers Jules From rcini at optonline.net Sun Feb 5 08:01:02 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 09:01:02 -0500 Subject: Just won HP 4952A / HP 18179A protocol analyzer/serial adapter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <009801c62a5c$996b9440$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Awesome. Thanks. I also "rented" the manuals for a week from a manual service so I'm going to copy/scan them. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 7:28 AM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Just won HP 4952A / HP 18179A protocol analyzer/serial adapter > I have one of these at home and am also looking for disk images - > especially the terminal emulator program. they'll be up for a day or two at http://www.bitsavers.org/HP4952A as a dmk and raw images From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Feb 5 09:15:08 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 09:15:08 -0600 Subject: OT but very funny References: <001101c62a1b$11cda050$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <004601c62a67$d66fff60$3e406b43@66067007> Good One :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 12:11 AM Subject: OT but very funny > Everyone here should read today's Dilbert. > > http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20060205.html > > > ----------------------------------------- > Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net > > Computer Collector Newsletter: >>> http://news.computercollector.com > > Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >>> http://www.marchclub.org >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Feb 5 11:37:16 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 09:37:16 -0800 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602050937.16761.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 05 February 2006 03:04, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sat, 4 Feb 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > > construction as those for the HP85. The problem is that the belt sticks > > to the oxide layer on the tape, and/or the tape sticks together, and you > > get major loss of the magnetic coating when you try to read the tape. > > Needless to say this makes it unreadable. > > So you try to shred a tape first and after that you begin to think about > it? Everyone who *knows* that the belt is sticking opens the cartridge and > tries to unstick the belt without damaging the tape. This works very fine > by applying heat (similar to baking sticky tapes, but here the tape is not > sticky, it's only the belt). And the tapes are fine afterwards. It's how I > revived all the original HP cartidges with software for the HP1000 (dated > from 1980 to 1985) that I have. I've made backups, of course, but they are > still fine. How do you heat them? How do you know when "enough is enough" heat? Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Feb 5 12:00:41 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 13:00:41 -0500 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <43E5A6BE.1070104@gjcp.net> References: <20060202235202.94711.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <200602041751.20116.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43E5A6BE.1070104@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200602051300.41146.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 05 February 2006 02:18 am, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Saturday 04 February 2006 05:32 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> ...and I've got a couple of 5.25" floppies where seeking to anything > >> past about cylinder 84/42 (depending on the drive) will cause the head > >> to jam, requiring manual intervention to free it. > > > > I used to see this fairly often when I was fixing commodore stuff, the > > head on the 1541 would get jammed to the inside, and one would have to > > open the case and manually move it out before the drive would work again. > > I'm sure I've mentioned before about the 1541 test and alignment disk we > used to have in a workshop I used to work at... > > Basically it had tracks written starting too far out and progressively > moving in until they were too far in. They were, I believe, written > with "worst case" patterns, and possibly a bit "quiet". The first few > tracks on the disk were written fairly hot so that even if the head was > a bit out, it would still boot. > > What would then happen was it would step through the disk a couple of > times, working out how "close" the head was by determining which track > gave the least CRC errors. > > Then it would work out which way the head needed to be moved, wind it > back and then smack it off the opposite end stop a few times. Then it > would cycle through its calibration reading again, and repeat until it > was done. > > Brutal, but it worked surprisingly well. > > Gordon. I don't see how it would, since there wasn't typically anything on the inner end for it to smack against... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 5 12:51:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 18:51:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IPC manuals? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060204212158.461f2224@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Feb 4, 6 09:21:58 pm Message-ID: > > Does anyone if the HP IPC manuals are scanned and posted online > somewhere? I THOUGHT they were but can't find them. There are a few IPC (Integral) manuals on http://www.hpmuseum.net Be warmnd that 'my' Integral schematics on that site are an old version and are known to have a couple of errors. There's an updated version on the latest HPCC CD-ROM, with the errors corrected and with a schematic for the internal modem board. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 5 12:59:30 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 18:59:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060204223806.47871042@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Feb 4, 6 10:38:06 pm Message-ID: > big DC-600 type tapes used in the HP 9144, etc. They did use a different > tape in some earlier products but they were VERY different and immediately > recognizable. I have a couple of those drives but I've never seen a tape > for them. It was driven like an audio cassette tape via the hubs. If that's the tape I'm thinking of, it's used in the 9830, and I think also the 982. There was an external tape drive for these machines that I forget the number of (HP9865???) The tapes are mechanically compatible with audio compact cassettes, but the tape is almost certainly different. These drives detect the clear leader by an optical sensor that reflects off the inside of the cassette shell where you'd expect the capstan/pinch roller to be, you need to use a light-coloured cassette. I've got a few Verbatim digital cassettes that work fine in my 9830. Interesting thing : That drive is mechanically very similar to the one in a Racal Thermionic Digideck. Similar enough that some parts will interchange. And the encoding scheme -- a pulse on one track for a '1', a pulse on the other track for a '0' and a pulse on both tracks for a marker (in the case of the HP, it's a byte marker) is the same too. As is the dact that the thing records 9 bits for each byte, the middle bit is some kind of marker to distinuish headers from data (the advantage of making it the middle bit is that you can read it with the tape moving in either direction. I would guess that the mechanism is not wholely an HP design/build... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 5 13:08:02 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 19:08:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Juki 6100 printer on e-bay In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Feb 4, 6 09:51:02 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > Alas third party printers are unlikely to be of much interest since they > > are large and don't seem to have much special about them. > > Ever been to the Henry Ford Museum in Michigan? You'd be surprised I've never even been to the States (I would like to go one day, but alas finances don't allow it at the moment...) > what you learn by seeing the evolution of an item historically by just > sitting all the items side-by-side. Oh, absolutely. Alas in the case of this sort of computer stuff it's a matter of seeing what corners can be cut, what can be left out, etc (I have an aversion to floppy drives without a track0 sensor, for example!). The problem with collecting , say, 3rd party printers is that they're large, and you can't do _that_ much with them. In an ideal world, I'd collect them. In this world, I have to only collect stuff of special interest to _me_... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 5 13:12:50 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 19:12:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Feb 5, 6 12:04:03 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 4 Feb 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > > construction as those for the HP85. The problem is that the belt sticks > > to the oxide layer on the tape, and/or the tape sticks together, and you > > get major loss of the magnetic coating when you try to read the tape. > > Needless to say this makes it unreadable. > > So you try to shred a tape first and after that you begin to think about it? Well _I_ don't, but plenty of other people do. I don't use these tapes if I can help it > Everyone who *knows* that the belt is sticking opens the cartridge and > tries to unstick the belt without damaging the tape. This works very fine > by applying heat (similar to baking sticky tapes, but here the tape is Thanks for the tip, I will give it a go on a couple of old HP85 tapes I have (nothing rare, the stuff is already archived on the web, and I think I have them on floppies anyway). > There are other tape cartridges that are really bad, notably DC-300 QIC > tapes from around 1977-1982. They have sticky belts *and* sticky tape > *and* a belt that will simply tear when the tape is moved. Any tips for dealing with those? -tong From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Feb 5 15:35:50 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 21:35:50 GMT Subject: Juki 6100 printer on e-bay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <490d9df44d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I've never even been to the States (I would like to go one day, but alas > finances don't allow it at the moment...) I've been to New York (had a look round NYC, stayed on Long Island), Connecticut (Mystic Seaport) and Orlando (Florida). You aren't missing much :P One of these days I intend to go to one of the VCF events, but there's no way I could manage it ATM. > Oh, absolutely. Alas in the case of this sort of computer stuff it's a > matter of seeing what corners can be cut, what can be left out, etc (I > have an aversion to floppy drives without a track0 sensor, for example!). The CBM 1541. (in)famous for the *BANG* sound you got when the head hit the end stop. Probably why they ended up going out of alignment quite quickly... At least, I *think* it was the 1541. Same drive that had a stupidly underrated power supply that tended to blow with the slightest provocation. -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G ... The wise don't merely stalk their prey, they make the kill. From roosmcd at dds.nl Sun Feb 5 15:47:51 2006 From: roosmcd at dds.nl (roosmcd at dds.nl) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 22:47:51 +0100 Subject: Fs/Ft. HP-HIL/ SUN converters In-Reply-To: <200602051800.k15I03TR063912@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200602051800.k15I03TR063912@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1139176071.43e672878e07d@webmail.dds.nl> Hello, I've got three original (no idea if anyone else beside HP made these) HP-HIL keyboard adapter modules, without any cables however. IIRC these will allow you to connect a standard PS/2 keyboard and mouse to any workstation with HP-HIL keyboard connector (although it's been some time since I had a workstation with HP-HIL). Another thing I have is a couple of Siplex FT SMS U10 and SMS U8, made by Infratec (googling for infratec+siplex should give you the page). These would be to connect a machine with a SUN keyboard or console connector to a KVM switch, but unfortunately they have the wrong firmware in them. IIRC there was an ATMega uC inside them. These do come with a cable set. As for trades, a better videocard for an PWS500a would be nice, otherwise laserdiscs, CD-i or a MCA soundcard/networkcard for my P70. Also looking to get rid of a few P2000 machines an a Domesday system. greetings, Michiel From peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk Sun Feb 5 16:05:43 2006 From: peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk (Peter Hicks) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 22:05:43 +0000 Subject: BBC monitor up for grabs Message-ID: <43E676B7.6070608@poggs.co.uk> All, I have a BBC monitor up for grabs - I know nothing about it, but do have the following two pictures: * http://www.welikegoats.com/ebay/bbc1.jpg * http://www.welikegoats.com/ebay/bbc2.jpg It comes with a free DB9 to mini-DIN lead too. Offers in the region of ?0.00p, but you'll have to collect from Leatherhead (UK). If you're interested, drop me a mail off-list (otherwise it's going to go in a folder I don't read often!). Poggs -- Peter Hicks | e: my.name at poggs.co.uk | g: 0xE7C839F4 | w: www.poggs.com A: Because it destroys the flow of the conversation Q: Why is top-posting bad? From vrs at msn.com Sun Feb 5 16:15:24 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 14:15:24 -0800 Subject: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: From: "Brad Parker" > Turns out the RX02 emulator needs an M105 and M7821 single height UNIBUS > card to work. > > Anyone have an extra M105 and M7821? I have been looking at suitable driver chips for Unibus/Qbus with Richard, and it looks like the SN75ALS057 is both suitable and readily available. So, I drew up an M105 replacement (modern parts, same functionality) with my CAD tools. If there is interest, I could make the drawings available, and someone could use them for a one-off or a group PCB buy. (I'm not that proud of the drawings themselves; they are kind of ugly, and I didn't need them pretty enough to invest the time to redraw them. Hopefully they are pretty close to electrically correct :-).) > Also, does any one have Schematics for the M105 and M7821? I looked on > bitsavers and did not find anything. The M105 schematic can be found in KI10_moduleSchems_V2_Oct74.pdf (page 23) on bitsavers. (The M7820 is on page 168, but I didn't find the M7821.) Vince From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 5 16:33:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 15:33:44 -0700 Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery pack) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 04 Feb 2006 12:06:30 -0500. <200602041206.30714.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: In article <200602041206.30714.rtellason at blazenet.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > > Like, say, for example, ads that advertised ruggedized computers by saying > > they could survive a drop from the empire state building... > > > > Were there any? ;-) That would be a good show... > > There was some "event" out on the west coast a while back where they did just > that sort of thing, dropping computers off of the top of a building. > [...] In 1978 I was told that Ma Bell telephones would survive a drop from a 3-story building. I was in disbelief. I was made a believer by throwing a phone out a window and collecting it from the ground below. The plastic has some scuffs and scrapes on it, but everything worked and nothing was broken. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 5 16:34:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 14:34:32 -0800 Subject: Juki 6100 printer on e-bay In-Reply-To: <490d9df44d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <490d9df44d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <200602051434320307.630EF517@10.0.0.252> On 2/5/2006 at 9:35 PM Philip Pemberton wrote: >The CBM 1541. (in)famous for the *BANG* sound you got when the head hit the >end stop. Probably why they ended up going out of alignment quite >quickly... > >At least, I *think* it was the 1541. Same drive that had a stupidly >underrated power supply that tended to blow with the slightest provocation. Yeah, it was the 1541--and didn't the Apple ][ drives use the same technique of "step into the stop until you're sure you've hit bottom"? But then, some dot-matrix printers used the same technique for zeroing the carriage. If you had the carriage powered by a DC servo instead of a stepper, you could even monitor the motor current to see when you'd slammed into the stop. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 5 16:35:01 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 15:35:01 -0700 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 04 Feb 2006 14:32:52 -0800. <200602041432520778.5DE7196D@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In article <200602041432520778.5DE7196D at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I suppose that one could pound a hole through a ribbon or paper with an > impact printer printing over and over at the same spot. Been there, done that with an LA-36 25+ years ago :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 5 16:37:17 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 15:37:17 -0700 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 04 Feb 2006 22:53:02 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > overclock your ram I'm told. What about the older ones > > that park your hard drive head, then tell it to do a > > seek...across the entire platter! > > What harm does that do, unless done repeatedly for a long enough time > (which would wear out the positioner beariongs, I suppose). I've been told that the imparted momentum on some large dishwasher sized drives was such that if you rapidly seeked all the way across the drive, the impact at the end would jiggle the drive slightly. By writing a routine that did something like: loop: seek 0 to 128 seek 128 to 127 seek 127 to 126 seek 126 to 125 ... seek 1 to 0 goto loop You could cause the drive to walk across the machine room and unplug itself once the cord limit was reached. Now *that* seems like a computer myth they might be able to test, although it would require finding a large vintage drive :-). Anyone heard this one before? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Feb 5 16:39:38 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 17:39:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery pack) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > In 1978 I was told that Ma Bell telephones would survive a drop from a > 3-story building. I was in disbelief. I was made a believer by > throwing a phone out a window and collecting it from the ground below. > The plastic has some scuffs and scrapes on it, but everything worked > and nothing was broken. My first PDP-8/e was thrown out a telco building into a dumpster, probably from the 2nd floor. Not Ma Bell, but Centel. Also, there is a company in Armonk NY (that is not IBM!) that make very ruggedized computers, and yes, they do throw them off the building every so often to test them. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 5 16:45:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 14:45:01 -0800 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602051445010304.63188E0F@10.0.0.252> On 2/5/2006 at 6:59 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >If that's the tape I'm thinking of, it's used in the 9830, and I think >also the 982. There was an external tape drive for these machines that I >forget the number of (HP9865???) No--the DC-300 is a big tape, thinner, but almost the size of a VHS cassette. DC-300, DC-600, DC-6150, DC-6250 and several other formats share the same mechanical layout and size. I've still got a bunch of the little DC-1000's squirreled away. The drive (Iwin) has 3.5" FH form factor. Are there any other 3.5" DC-xxx drives? Anyone remember a really silly format brought out about 1993? Used a 2.5mm tape in a cart about the size of an audio microcassette. The mechanism was a Sony helical-scan setup. It could run on 4 AA cells and interfaced through the parallel port. I was sent one as an evaluation unit and never could get it to work reliably. Tapes were expensive--about $15--and available only via Fedex from the manufacturer. I normally don't send many eval units back, but when I got wind that the manufacturer was telling customers that that we "were working on a driver" for it, I sent the unit back with an angry letter. One of my customers bought 50 of the units anyway and, for all I know, they're still sitting in a warehouse somewhere, unopened and unused. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 5 16:45:32 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 15:45:32 -0700 Subject: Juki 6100 printer on e-bay In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 04 Feb 2006 17:32:26 -0500. <200602041732.26210.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: In article <200602041732.26210.rtellason at blazenet.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > couple of big old printers in storage, one being an NEC "Spinwriter" (uses a > thing they called a "thimble" instead of a daisywheel but it's the same idea) Spinwriter? This doesn't use a diablo style print wheel, does it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Feb 5 18:29:29 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 19:29:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Feb 2006, Richard wrote: > I've been told that the imparted momentum on some large dishwasher > sized drives was such that if you rapidly seeked all the way across > the drive, the impact at the end would jiggle the drive slightly. By > writing a routine that did something like: >... > You could cause the drive to walk across the machine room and unplug > itself once the cord limit was reached. Been there, seen it. The HP 7933 drives: http://hpmuseum.net/image.php?file=1344 had onboard diagnostics, including a random seek test. If you didn't have the stabilizer feet cranked down, these drives would indeed "walk" during the seek test. The 7933 used a large "voice coil" to position the head assembly. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 5 17:46:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 15:46:28 -0800 Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery pack) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602051546280380.6350D069@10.0.0.252> On 2/5/2006 at 3:33 PM Richard wrote: >In 1978 I was told that Ma Bell telephones would survive a drop from a >3-story building. I was in disbelief. I was made a believer by >throwing a phone out a window and collecting it from the ground below. >The plastic has some scuffs and scrapes on it, but everything worked >and nothing was broken. I believe that WE phones were among the first to use Cycolac ABS for the case. Well into the 60's you could often find a 500 series desk set with a bakelite handset and cycolac base. Ma Bell apparently didn't let much go to waste. Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Feb 5 18:04:12 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 18:04:12 -0600 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E6927C.3080306@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: > You could cause the drive to walk across the machine room and unplug > itself once the cord limit was reached. > > Anyone heard this one before? Yep! The kernel developers at MWC would tell me stories of "racing hard drives" across the data center floor and betting on who would win. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 5 18:04:36 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 00:04:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Juki 6100 printer on e-bay In-Reply-To: <200602051434320307.630EF517@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 6 02:34:32 pm Message-ID: > >At least, I *think* it was the 1541. Same drive that had a stupidly > >underrated power supply that tended to blow with the slightest > provocation. > > Yeah, it was the 1541--and didn't the Apple ][ drives use the same > technique of "step into the stop until you're sure you've hit bottom"? Indeed they did :-( > > But then, some dot-matrix printers used the same technique for zeroing the > carriage. If you had the carriage powered by a DC servo instead of a > stepper, you could even monitor the motor current to see when you'd slammed > into the stop. The infamous LA36 does this, but I thougth it detected the end stop by a lack of pulses from the shaft encoder on the back of the motor. We had an LA36 in the lab where I worked. The plastic key in the carriage drive sprocket broke, and the motor therefore didn't stop when the carriage hit the end stop, it just kept on turning very slowly against a heavy load (the friction of the sprocket on the shaft). The result was the motor got hot enough to burn the insulation off the windings, and at that point the carriage motor fuse blew. Well it didn't take me long to track that fault down. The motor drew 4A from a bench supply with no mechanal load. The only problem was that DEC charged some ridiculous price -- about \pounds 150 I think -- for a new motor. Since research student's time is not worth much, another chap and I spent an afternoon rewinding it. A few years later, that LA36 was scrapped. No I didn't take it (one of the few DEC items I didn't grab), but I did take some bits out of it. I still have the carriage motor with the 'rewound by ARD and AMG' label on it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 5 18:07:34 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 00:07:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: <200602051445010304.63188E0F@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 6 02:45:01 pm Message-ID: > > On 2/5/2006 at 6:59 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >If that's the tape I'm thinking of, it's used in the 9830, and I think > >also the 982. There was an external tape drive for these machines that I > >forget the number of (HP9865???) > > No--the DC-300 is a big tape, thinner, but almost the size of a VHS > cassette. DC-300, DC-600, DC-6150, DC-6250 and several other formats share > the same mechanical layout and size. I know what a DC300 looks like. I have a Sidewinder drive on my PERQ.... Joe mentioned that this other HP tape was driven by the hubs like an audio cassette. A DC300 isn't, it's got the belt-between-the-spools drive. I rather misinterpretted Joe and thought he said it _was_ like an audio cassette (which the 9830 tape certainly is). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 5 18:16:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 16:16:36 -0800 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602051616360456.636C6711@10.0.0.252> On 2/6/2006 at 12:07 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Joe mentioned that this other HP tape was driven by the hubs like an >audio cassette. A DC300 isn't, it's got the belt-between-the-spools >drive. I rather misinterpretted Joe and thought he said it _was_ like an >audio cassette (which the 9830 tape certainly is). Maybe a DC-100? Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 5 18:31:26 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 17:31:26 -0700 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 05 Feb 2006 11:40:40 +0100. Message-ID: In article , Christian Corti writes: > On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Joe R. wrote: > > Don't bother with the old HP tapes. I've never seen a one that worked > > more than a couple of days, even NOS ones. And I've tried dozens of them. I > > My old ones (over 20 years old) work flawlessly. And my NOS ones (3M) work > nicely, too. I use them regularly to load some simple programs into a > HP1000 system or to transfer files between HP1000 and UNIX. Maybe the issue in question then isn't the tape, but that the drive is out of alignment. When a floppy is out of alignment, it won't matter if you put brand new disks in them, it won't work properly. The service docs and technical docs for the tape drive are on -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 18:49:02 2006 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 00:49:02 +0000 Subject: Powering up sleeping uVAX II Message-ID: <11c909eb0602051649l6169bb6cu@mail.gmail.com> Hi List, I have here a uVAX II in a ba23 box, most likely not powered up for 2 or 3 years. The innards are clean, no nasty smells, no other trace of prior problems. Even so, to minimise the risk of damage I'm going to disconnect all the 5v & 12v leads, then attach some suitable dummy load(s), switch on and wait for smoke. Does this seem an appropriate plan? Can anyone point me to pinouts for the various supply leads from an H7864? Does anyone have any other recommendations/experience of going though this process, and is there anything I've missed that I should have included above? Cheers, Pete -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Feb 5 19:49:09 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 19:49:09 -0600 Subject: Powering up sleeping uVAX II In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0602051649l6169bb6cu@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060205194355.0bb08a18@localhost> At 12:49 AM 2/6/2006 +0000, you wrote: >Hi List, > >I have here a uVAX II in a ba23 box, most likely not powered up for 2 or 3 >years. >The innards are clean, no nasty smells, no other trace of prior problems. >Even so, to minimise the risk of damage I'm going to disconnect all the 5v & >12v leads, then attach some suitable dummy load(s), switch on and wait for >smoke. > >Does this seem an appropriate plan? Can anyone point me to pinouts for the >various supply leads from an H7864? >Does anyone have any other recommendations/experience of going though this >process, and is there anything I've missed that I should have included >above? All wise precautions. Many others recommend also using a variac to bring up the voltage slowly, in stages, letting the capacitors reform for a few hours at each stop. That also affords more chances to check for smoke leakage. If you have an ammeter in line, you can watch for outrageous current draw once you get closer to design voltage. Most of us would have to find someone to borrow a sufficiently beefy variac from, however. (I would.) [Computing] A successful tool is one that was used to do something undreamed of by its author. --S. C. Johnson --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Feb 5 19:54:41 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 20:54:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Powering up sleeping uVAX II In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060205194355.0bb08a18@localhost> Message-ID: > All wise precautions. Many others recommend also using a variac to bring up > the voltage slowly, in stages, letting the capacitors reform for a few > hours at each stop. That also affords more chances to check for smoke > leakage. If you have an ammeter in line, you can watch for outrageous > current draw once you get closer to design voltage. Unless the uVax hasn't been powered up since the day it left the factory, the capacitors will not need to be reformed. It take quite a long time for modern (i.e. post-1950) electrolytics to even start thinking about going bad. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Feb 5 19:55:37 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 20:55:37 -0500 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 05 Feb 2006 09:37:16 PST." <200602050937.16761.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <200602060155.k161tbYK004802@mwave.heeltoe.com> Lyle Bickley wrote: > >How do you heat them? How do you know when "enough is enough" heat? heh. good question. I've found that 130F is fine for most tape. Over 145-150F seems to cause problems with the plastic housing & flanges (but the tape seems fine). At one point in time Ampex recommened 130F for baking. My experience is that the RH in the area around the tape while at temperature has a lot to do with getting the moisture out (which makes sense... pv=nrt) I've baked tapes for as little as 7 hours and as long as 5 days. The time does not seem to be as important as the RH around the tape. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Feb 5 20:02:56 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 21:02:56 -0500 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 05 Feb 2006 15:37:17 MST." Message-ID: <200602060202.k1622upK005149@mwave.heeltoe.com> Richard wrote: > >You could cause the drive to walk across the machine room and unplug >itself once the cord limit was reached. heh. you've never seen an IBM 370/158 running MVS page before, have you? I remember some of the those top loading drives shaking so hard I thought they would destroy themselves. but they never did. Easily +/- 1/2" of motion, constantly, for hours on end. Clearly we needed more core... Before I saw that I thought an RK05 paging for RSTS was bad, but that was only like 1/4" of sway. I never saw one walk, but it would be easy to imagine. I would worry they would fly apart first :-) simple walking would ok! -brad From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Feb 5 20:07:12 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 21:07:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <200602060202.k1622upK005149@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: > heh. you've never seen an IBM 370/158 running MVS page before, have > you? > > I remember some of the those top loading drives shaking so hard I > thought they would destroy themselves. but they never did. Easily +/- > 1/2" of motion, constantly, for hours on end. Clearly we needed more > core... What model drives? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sun Feb 5 20:51:40 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 18:51:40 -0800 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? In-Reply-To: References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> vrs wrote: > From: "Brad Parker" > >> Turns out the RX02 emulator needs an M105 and M7821 single height UNIBUS >> card to work. >> >> Anyone have an extra M105 and M7821? >> > I have been looking at suitable driver chips for Unibus/Qbus with Richard, > and it looks like the SN75ALS057 is both suitable and readily available. > The bus driver/receiver voltage spec (absolute maximum voltage of 2.5V) of these parts is NOT suitable for UNIBUS/QBUS. These parts are designed for low voltage swing busses and may work in the short term on UNIBUS, but will eventually fail, as the UNIBUS termination voltage (static high level) is 3.5V, 1V over the abs max rating. I've looked at this problem a bit and the most suitable modern day (ie, still in active production) part I've found is the Am26S10C. TI now produces this older AMD part, and it is available in both 16DIP and 16SOIC. It is a quad part not unlike the DS8641. You can get them at Digikey for about US$1.35 each. Even in Pb-free packages. The 26S10 has 100ma OC drivers, and the bus receiver input threshold is in the 1.75-2.25V range, very close to UNIBUS specification. The only issue I see in using this part is that the specs of the output rise/fall time are sub 10ns transitions. This may cause problems with reflections, especially on UNIBUS systems with longer cables. Don From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sun Feb 5 21:14:51 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 19:14:51 -0800 Subject: MS11-LD (M7891-DA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E6BF2B.9070902@mindspring.com> Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > Quick one: > Can I plug a M7891-DA into a 11/44? > This is supposed to be 128kW MOS RAM for the 11/24 and 11/34A... > > BTW, what kinds of memory options/expansions does a 11/44 have? > > > I believe the M7891 (MS11-Lx) is compatible with the 11/44 memory slots, but it needs to have some jumpers changed to allow this: 1) Change from MODIFIED UNIBUS (MUD, 18b) to EXTENDED UNIBUS (EUB, 22b) decoding. Jumper W4: MOD/IN EUB/OUT 2) Change from +15V supply (MUD slot) to +12V supply (EUB slot, 11/44 backplane). Jumpers W1&W2: +15v/W1-OUT,W2-IN +12v/W1-IN,W2-OUT The MS11-Lx is a parity module, up to 256KB density. More standard memory options for the 11/44 would be MS11-Mx 256KB ECC, and MS11-Px 1024KB ECC. Don From waisun.chia at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 21:41:26 2006 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:41:26 +0800 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? In-Reply-To: <43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On 2/6/06, Don North wrote: > > I've looked at this problem a bit and the most suitable modern day (ie, > still in active production) part I've found is the Am26S10C. TI now > produces this older AMD part, and it is available in both 16DIP and > 16SOIC. It is a quad part not unlike the DS8641. You can get them at > Digikey for about US$1.35 each. Even in Pb-free packages. > First off, thanks for the R&D. I'm sure everybody in the classiccmp community appreciates this.. :-) Secondly, the immediate thing that strikes me when I open the datasheet is "The AM26S11C is not recommended for new designs"! Wouldn't it behoove us if we're looking for replacements for an obsolete part, we try not to go for a soon-to-be-obsolete replacement? What is the typical time frame between the time a manufacturer deprecates a part and when production actually stops? From waisun.chia at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 21:45:30 2006 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:45:30 +0800 Subject: MS11-LD (M7891-DA) In-Reply-To: <43E6BF2B.9070902@mindspring.com> References: <43E6BF2B.9070902@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On 2/6/06, Don North wrote: > Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > > Quick one: > > Can I plug a M7891-DA into a 11/44? > > This is supposed to be 128kW MOS RAM for the 11/24 and 11/34A... > > > > BTW, what kinds of memory options/expansions does a 11/44 have? > > > > > > > I believe the M7891 (MS11-Lx) is compatible with the 11/44 memory slots, > but it needs to have some jumpers changed to allow this: > > 1) Change from MODIFIED UNIBUS (MUD, 18b) to EXTENDED UNIBUS (EUB, 22b) > decoding. > Jumper W4: MOD/IN EUB/OUT > > 2) Change from +15V supply (MUD slot) to +12V supply (EUB slot, 11/44 > backplane). > Jumpers W1&W2: +15v/W1-OUT,W2-IN +12v/W1-IN,W2-OUT > > The MS11-Lx is a parity module, up to 256KB density. More standard > memory options for the 11/44 would be MS11-Mx 256KB ECC, and MS11-Px > 1024KB ECC. Hey, thanks for the detailed slot hacking procedures! :-) I didn't know that one could use a MS11-Px and save 3 slots tto get 1MB on a 11/44!! So theoretically I can cram 4 MS11-Px boards to achieve full 22bits (4MB) RAM on a 11/44?? From vrs at msn.com Sun Feb 5 22:06:51 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 20:06:51 -0800 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> Message-ID: > > I have been looking at suitable driver chips for Unibus/Qbus with Richard, > > and it looks like the SN75ALS057 is both suitable and readily available. > > > The bus driver/receiver voltage spec (absolute maximum voltage of 2.5V) > of these parts is NOT suitable for UNIBUS/QBUS. These parts are designed > for low voltage swing busses and may work in the short term on UNIBUS, > but will eventually fail, as the UNIBUS termination voltage (static high > level) is 3.5V, 1V over the abs max rating. Sigh. Looks like you are right about that. I see that the DS3896 had the same limitation, but that the DS3862 (and the DS3662 before that) did not. > I've looked at this problem a bit and the most suitable modern day (ie, > still in active production) part I've found is the Am26S10C. TI now > produces this older AMD part, and it is available in both 16DIP and > 16SOIC. It is a quad part not unlike the DS8641. You can get them at > Digikey for about US$1.35 each. Even in Pb-free packages. > > The 26S10 has 100ma OC drivers, and the bus receiver input threshold is > in the 1.75-2.25V range, very close to UNIBUS specification. The only > issue I see in using this part is that the specs of the output rise/fall > time are sub 10ns transitions. This may cause problems with reflections, > especially on UNIBUS systems with longer cables. I think the driver part of the Am26S10 is pretty good, except the rise time can be too fast (might have to select parts more toward the "typical" values, rather than the minimum values from the datasheet). I'm a little concerned about the input thresholds on the Am261S0, though. The 1.8V Vil is actually in the allowable range for a UNIBUS high! OTOH, the DS8838/8T38/MC3438 that were used in the RX emulator won't sense voltages that low as a high, either! (I don't know why the bus spec Vih is so low; is it just because the DS8641 was that way? Is it is really possible to have that much leakage on a real world bus?) Looking at the bus specs, 105ua of leakage are allowed per bus load. I calculate that over 9ma of load would be required to drag the bus down to the Vih 0f 2.3V for the Am26S10. That works out to 87 bus loads!? For the DS8838 (2.5V), I get 71 bus loads. Am I doing this right? If so, I am guessing that the bus can't get that big, and the Am26S10 should work fine? Vince From vrs at msn.com Sun Feb 5 22:12:13 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 20:12:13 -0800 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibuscard? References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com><43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> Message-ID: From: "Wai-Sun Chia" > Secondly, the immediate thing that strikes me when I open the > datasheet is "The AM26S11C is not recommended for new designs"! (I think you meant the AM26S10C.) > Wouldn't it behoove us if we're looking for replacements for an > obsolete part, we try not to go for a soon-to-be-obsolete replacement? It would, if there were any such parts! That was why I was excited about the sn75als057 (which apparently won't work). Vince From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sun Feb 5 22:27:27 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 20:27:27 -0800 Subject: MS11-LD (M7891-DA) In-Reply-To: References: <43E6BF2B.9070902@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <43E6D02F.2040101@mindspring.com> Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > On 2/6/06, Don North wrote: > >> Wai-Sun Chia wrote: >> >>> Quick one: >>> Can I plug a M7891-DA into a 11/44? >>> This is supposed to be 128kW MOS RAM for the 11/24 and 11/34A... >>> >>> BTW, what kinds of memory options/expansions does a 11/44 have? >>> >> I believe the M7891 (MS11-Lx) is compatible with the 11/44 memory slots, >> but it needs to have some jumpers changed to allow this: >> >> 1) Change from MODIFIED UNIBUS (MUD, 18b) to EXTENDED UNIBUS (EUB, 22b) >> decoding. >> Jumper W4: MOD/IN EUB/OUT >> >> 2) Change from +15V supply (MUD slot) to +12V supply (EUB slot, 11/44 >> backplane). >> Jumpers W1&W2: +15v/W1-OUT,W2-IN +12v/W1-IN,W2-OUT >> >> The MS11-Lx is a parity module, up to 256KB density. More standard >> memory options for the 11/44 would be MS11-Mx 256KB ECC, and MS11-Px >> 1024KB ECC. >> > > Hey, thanks for the detailed slot hacking procedures! :-) > I didn't know that one could use a MS11-Px and save 3 slots tto get > 1MB on a 11/44!! > > So theoretically I can cram 4 MS11-Px boards to achieve full 22bits > (4MB) RAM on a 11/44?? > I'm running my 11/44 with four MS11-PB (4096K total physical). However, due to the I/O page and UNIBUS map restrictions that eat up some physical address space, the usable physical memory is only 3840KB (not 4096KB). I believe the MS11-Px series was specifically designed for the 11/44 and 11/24 systems. From waisun.chia at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 22:40:25 2006 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:40:25 +0800 Subject: MS11-LD (M7891-DA) In-Reply-To: <43E6D02F.2040101@mindspring.com> References: <43E6BF2B.9070902@mindspring.com> <43E6D02F.2040101@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On 2/6/06, Don North wrote: > Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > > > I'm running my 11/44 with four MS11-PB (4096K total physical). However, Very nice! > due to the I/O page and UNIBUS map restrictions that eat up some > physical address space, the usable physical memory is only 3840KB (not > 4096KB). Yeah. Unibus I/O map... > > I believe the MS11-Px series was specifically designed for the 11/44 and > 11/24 systems. > Any MS11-Px to spare? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Feb 5 22:59:35 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 23:59:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building In-Reply-To: <01C62931.69A9A660@mse-d03> References: <01C62931.69A9A660@mse-d03> Message-ID: <200602060500.AAA20618@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> There really should be a requirement for licensing of computer >>> owners/users - if you can't prove you can secure a machine >>> properly, you don't get to own one... >> It's only when they connect to the net - or want to take them on the >> public roads - that there's any reason for the State to get involved. > You're soooo right!!! We have waaaayyy too much freedom and not > nearly enough State control!!! [...] I'm saying that connection to the net is *necessary* for State involvement to be appropriate. I'm not saying it is *sufficient*. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sun Feb 5 23:38:05 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 21:38:05 -0800 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? In-Reply-To: References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <43E6E0BD.1020702@mindspring.com> >> The 26S10 has 100ma OC drivers, and the bus receiver input threshold is >> in the 1.75-2.25V range, very close to UNIBUS specification. The only >> issue I see in using this part is that the specs of the output rise/fall >> time are sub 10ns transitions. This may cause problems with reflections, >> especially on UNIBUS systems with longer cables. >> > > I think the driver part of the Am26S10 is pretty good, except the rise time > can be too fast (might have to select parts more toward the "typical" values, > rather than the minimum values from the datasheet). > This is my main concern as well; the Am26S10C may be just a little to 'hot' for some UNIBUS configurations. My suspicion is it will work just fine for most configurations, but some (lightly loaded using longer UNIBUS cables) may have reflections/ringing problems that will manifest themselves as 'flakiness'. > I'm a little concerned about the input thresholds on the Am261S0, though. > The 1.8V Vil is actually in the allowable range for a UNIBUS high! OTOH, > the DS8838/8T38/MC3438 that were used in the RX emulator won't sense > voltages that low as a high, either! > The Vih(min) of the 26S10 is 2.25V, similar to that of the DS8837/8 parts with Vih(typ) of 2.5V. It is still about 0.5V higher than the 'gold standard' DS8641 tho. > (I don't know why the bus spec Vih is so low; is it just because the DS8641 > was that way? Is it is really possible to have that much leakage on a real > world bus?) > > Looking at the bus specs, 105ua of leakage are allowed per bus load. I > calculate that over 9ma of load would be required to drag the bus down > to the Vih 0f 2.3V for the Am26S10. That works out to 87 bus loads!? > For the DS8838 (2.5V), I get 71 bus loads. Am I doing this right? If > so, I am guessing that the bus can't get that big, and the Am26S10 should > work fine? > > If you look in the UnibusTroubleshooting guide on bitsavers, they have several charts of allowed AC loads vs static high level. Allowing for 200ua per load leakage, the minimum static high level for a 20load segment works about to be about 3.0V (down from 3.4V which is the termination voltage). The issue will be that due to imperfect termination, negative ringing on the high level now has to be less than 0.75V (3.0V - 2.25V) with the 26S10 versus 1.3V (3.0V - 1.70V) with the 8641. So the 26S10 receivers will be more sensitive to ringing on L-H transitions, possibly causing false transitions on the output. This is probably not a concern for data/address lines given adequate deskew delay, but more problematic for such lines as MSYN/SSYN/etc that are actually clock edges. I don't have a good solution to this other than don't configure heavily loaded / very long UNIBUS segments if you plan to use the 26S10. I don't see another part that is usable however (other than salvaging old 8641s). From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 00:28:33 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 01:28:33 -0500 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? In-Reply-To: <43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> Message-ID: I have done extensive research on this issue. If you happen to take a look of the schematic of the mscp scsi project, you know my choice. It is the plain TTL 7406. I can defend this choice for Qbus. It satisfies the majority of the requirements, and has work around of the rest. 1. availability, price 2. leak current satisfies requirement (Yes, I measured. 0.25mA specification is for 30V, not 5V) 3. rise/fall time satisfies requirement (This is the most important factor) 4. drain current work around. use one for single terminated QBUS, parallel two for double terminated QBUS. (when in parallel, leak current doubles; but the QBUS tolerance doubles too.) vax, 9000 From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Feb 6 01:00:36 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 23:00:36 -0800 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? In-Reply-To: References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <43E6F414.1050102@mindspring.com> 9000 VAX wrote: > I have done extensive research on this issue. If you happen to take a > look of the schematic of the mscp scsi project, you know my choice. It > is the plain TTL 7406. I can defend this choice for Qbus. It satisfies > the majority of the requirements, and has work around of the rest. > 1. availability, price > 2. leak current satisfies requirement (Yes, I measured. 0.25mA > specification is for 30V, not 5V) > 3. rise/fall time satisfies requirement (This is the most important factor) > 4. drain current work around. use one for single terminated QBUS, > parallel two for double terminated QBUS. (when in parallel, leak > current doubles; but the QBUS tolerance doubles too.) > > vax, 9000 > The 7406 works for the output/driver side (most any of the older OC drivers can sink enough current, and have slow enough edge rates), but the issue is with the receiver L/H input thresholds. Standard TTL levels of 0.8V/2.0V VIL/VIH do not have enough noise margin on the low side; that is why the original DS8641/DS883x etc parts were designed to support 1.7V/2.5V thresholds. For a small single slot QBUS backplane I could agree up front the 7406 probably works just fine. But I would be doubtful it works reliably for larger UNIBUS configurations (multiple 9-slot with bus jumpers, for example). From vrs at msn.com Mon Feb 6 01:13:49 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 23:13:49 -0800 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> <43E6F414.1050102@mindspring.com> Message-ID: From: "Don North" > 9000 VAX wrote: > > I have done extensive research on this issue. If you happen to take a > > look of the schematic of the mscp scsi project, you know my choice. It > > is the plain TTL 7406. I can defend this choice for Qbus. It satisfies > > the majority of the requirements, and has work around of the rest. > > 1. availability, price > > 2. leak current satisfies requirement (Yes, I measured. 0.25mA > > specification is for 30V, not 5V) > > 3. rise/fall time satisfies requirement (This is the most important factor) > > 4. drain current work around. use one for single terminated QBUS, > > parallel two for double terminated QBUS. (when in parallel, leak > > current doubles; but the QBUS tolerance doubles too.) > The 7406 works for the output/driver side (most any of the older OC > drivers can sink enough current, and have slow enough edge rates), but > the issue is with the receiver L/H input thresholds. Standard TTL levels > of 0.8V/2.0V VIL/VIH do not have enough noise margin on the low side; > that is why the original DS8641/DS883x etc parts were designed to > support 1.7V/2.5V thresholds. > > For a small single slot QBUS backplane I could agree up front the 7406 > probably works just fine. But I would be doubtful it works reliably for > larger UNIBUS configurations (multiple 9-slot with bus jumpers, for > example). Isn't the Iil value a couple of orders of magnitude out of specification (for a receiver) too? Vince From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Feb 6 01:23:04 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 23:23:04 -0800 Subject: M7821 module schematic Message-ID: <63311F18-855A-4AFA-A5C3-1F68BC2117D8@bitsavers.org> Did some digging.. You can find it on pages 76 and 77 of the RP11C controller schematics RP11-C_schemMay73.pdf I'll extract the pages and add it to the M-series module schematics on bitsavers. From vrs at msn.com Mon Feb 6 01:27:42 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 23:27:42 -0800 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> <43E6E0BD.1020702@mindspring.com> Message-ID: From: "Don North" > The issue will be that due to imperfect termination, negative ringing on > the high level now has to be less than 0.75V (3.0V - 2.25V) with the > 26S10 versus 1.3V (3.0V - 1.70V) with the 8641. So the 26S10 receivers > will be more sensitive to ringing on L-H transitions, possibly causing > false transitions on the output. This is probably not a concern for > data/address lines given adequate deskew delay, but more problematic for > such lines as MSYN/SSYN/etc that are actually clock edges. Makes sense. Thanks for the explanation! Vince From vrs at msn.com Mon Feb 6 01:33:58 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 23:33:58 -0800 Subject: M7821 module schematic References: <63311F18-855A-4AFA-A5C3-1F68BC2117D8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: From: "Al Kossow" > Did some digging.. You can find it on pages 76 and 77 of > the RP11C controller schematics RP11-C_schemMay73.pdf > > I'll extract the pages and add it to the M-series module > schematics on bitsavers. Thanks! Vince From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Feb 6 01:34:19 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 23:34:19 -0800 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? In-Reply-To: References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> <43E6F414.1050102@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <43E6FBFB.8030105@mindspring.com> vrs wrote: > From: "Don North" > >> 9000 VAX wrote: >> >>> I have done extensive research on this issue. If you happen to take a >>> look of the schematic of the mscp scsi project, you know my choice. It >>> is the plain TTL 7406. I can defend this choice for Qbus. It satisfies >>> the majority of the requirements, and has work around of the rest. >>> 1. availability, price >>> 2. leak current satisfies requirement (Yes, I measured. 0.25mA >>> specification is for 30V, not 5V) >>> 3. rise/fall time satisfies requirement (This is the most important >>> > factor) > >>> 4. drain current work around. use one for single terminated QBUS, >>> parallel two for double terminated QBUS. (when in parallel, leak >>> current doubles; but the QBUS tolerance doubles too.) >>> > > >> The 7406 works for the output/driver side (most any of the older OC >> drivers can sink enough current, and have slow enough edge rates), but >> the issue is with the receiver L/H input thresholds. Standard TTL levels >> of 0.8V/2.0V VIL/VIH do not have enough noise margin on the low side; >> that is why the original DS8641/DS883x etc parts were designed to >> support 1.7V/2.5V thresholds. >> >> For a small single slot QBUS backplane I could agree up front the 7406 >> probably works just fine. But I would be doubtful it works reliably for >> larger UNIBUS configurations (multiple 9-slot with bus jumpers, for >> example). >> > > Isn't the Iil value a couple of orders of magnitude out of specification > (for a receiver) too? > > Vince > > That is certainly true (7406 requires sinking 1.6ma on the input to drive the output low; the DS8641/883x/29S10 all have maximum input current specs of 100uA under all input voltage and power supply voltage conditions). It's not clear from the above discussion from 9000vax as to what he used for the bus receiver; he just describes using the 7406 as an output driver on QBUS. Not clear what he uses on input. From cc at corti-net.de Mon Feb 6 03:23:16 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:23:16 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: <200602050937.16761.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200602050937.16761.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Feb 2006, Lyle Bickley wrote: > How do you heat them? How do you know when "enough is enough" heat? I take a lamp with a strong light bulb (ordinary 100W or a halogen lamp) and hold the tape near the bulb. I constantly move the tape so there will be no overheating at some spots. Actually you can see when the belt goes from the sticky to the non-sticky condition. Before it has a whitish coating, when applying heat to the belt it gets black again and might show a shiny surface. The advantage of this method is that you can see what is going on and react accordingly. Christian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 03:32:29 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:32:29 +0000 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? In-Reply-To: <43E6E0BD.1020702@mindspring.com> References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> <43E6E0BD.1020702@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On 2/6/06, Don North wrote: > I don't have a good solution to this other than don't configure heavily > loaded / very long UNIBUS segments if you plan to use the 26S10. I don't > see another part that is usable however (other than salvaging old 8641s). For Unibus projects, I happen to have tubes of NOS 8641s left over from the COMBOARD days (as well as several cubic feet of scrap COMBOARDs with several 8641s each, if one wants to pull them from a 6-layer board). We used 8641s and DC013s for our Unibus interface layer (and real DEC DC005s and DC010s for our Qbus boards). I don't think I could supply all the Unibus hobbyists in the world, but I have enough chips for a limited run of new boards. Still, I think it'd be nice to find something modern that works for bus drivers and bus receivers. -ethan From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Feb 6 07:26:30 2006 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 08:26:30 -0500 Subject: Powering up sleeping uVAX II Message-ID: Pete asked: > I have here a uVAX II in a ba23 box, most likely not powered up for 2 or 3 > years. > > The innards are clean, no nasty smells, no other trace of prior problems. > Even so, to minimise the risk of damage I'm going to disconnect all the 5v & > 12v leads, then attach some suitable dummy load(s), switch on and wait for > smoke. > > Does this seem an appropriate plan? Can anyone point me to pinouts for the > various supply leads from an H7864? > Does anyone have any other recommendations/experience of going though this > process, and is there anything I've missed that I should have included > above? Just plug it in and turn it on. Unless the economics have drastically changed in the past 5 or 10 years, a uVax II in a BA23 has a street value of $50 tops. If there's any irreplacable components/assemblies/drives you may indeed want to remove them during initial testing (in any event as you reconfigure the system you certainly want to start with the simplest "has to work" configuration and then add on all the unknowns.) Ignore anyone who tells you to bring this up on a Variac. You will be increasing the chances of damage by doing so. Variac's are great for linear supplies in reforming electrolytic caps, but they only make life worse in a switching power supply because you're gonna cause all sorts of out-of-usual conditions. See, a switching power supply has negative impedance as seen from the "in" connector: if you decrease input voltage, it will increase its current draw to keep power out constant. Outside of a reasonable range (say +/- 30%) of input voltage the flyback pulse widths etc. will be seriously out of whack too, also probably triggering a shutdown. My personal preference with linear supplies is to just plug it in and let any bad electrolytics blow up :-). The BA23's power supply (like most switching supplies) has more than adequate shutdown-on-overvoltage-out circuitry. The one thing to check: look at the 0.156" spacing harness from the PS to the backplane. Wiggle it on and off, look for charring and overheating. Some signs of past heat are likely, but if any of the contacts are burnt up you might want to look for or fabricate a different jumper. Worst case will be that you burn up the jumper, and you won't be the first to have it happen! After you get it up and going, you will probably find that the NiCads that hold the CPU configuration and run the TOY clock don't hold a charge. It's just 3 AAA's in series. It's not really necessary if you don't mind setting the clock and selecting the boot device manually at every startup. NiMH's are more available today and probably a better technical choice for replacement if you decide you need to TOY clock and config RAM. Tim. From charlesmorris at direcway.com Mon Feb 6 07:49:31 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 07:49:31 -0600 Subject: HP 6020i SureStore drive In-Reply-To: <200602061215.k16CFb8q075678@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200602061215.k16CFb8q075678@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1nkeu1hilbe1cgm6fc8bgebikaioqv6kmi@4ax.com> My ten year old HP 6020i CD-Writer drive isn't working properly any more (frequently gives "Power Calibration Errors" while trying to write a CD-R). I've never worked inside these drives and for only 2X write speed don't want to learn. I just got a 52X drive for $23.99 and the difference is dramatic (2 minutes to burn a CD vs. 38 minutes!) Anyway, if anyone wants it, with the manuals and installation CD, they can have it for the cost of postage, otherwise it's going in the trash... thanks Charles From alberto at a2sistemi.it Mon Feb 6 08:21:12 2006 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:21:12 +0100 Subject: Atari 800 Schematics In-Reply-To: <1nkeu1hilbe1cgm6fc8bgebikaioqv6kmi@4ax.com> Message-ID: Anyone has the schematic diagrams of the Atari 800 ? Not the 800xl ! Alberto ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel +39 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax +39 0321 391769 Skype : albertorubinelli Mobile +39 335 6026632 Il mio museo di vecchi computers/My old computers museum http://www.retrocomputing.net ICQ : 49872318 ------------------------------------------------------ From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Feb 6 09:24:10 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:24:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Powering up sleeping uVAX II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > My personal preference with linear supplies is to just plug it in and let any > bad electrolytics blow up :-). This is not a bad idea, and reasonable for "modern" electrolytics (the quality of components, especially electrolytics, increased greatly in the 1950s, thanks to the military). If something has not been turned on for 15 or 20 years - OK, maybe it is a worthwhile precaution, but nothing to go nuts over. Otherwise, just a power up, perhaps with the supplies not feeding anything, will almost always work. If a cap blows, chances are great that it was failing due to another reason (moisture getting thru the seals is a culprit), and would have blown at some point anyway. All the years I have been doing this, I have never had an electrolytic drastically fail, and have only personally seen it once on someone else's equipment. The failure did not damage anything else. Electrolytics from the 30s and 40s are a different story. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From rickb at bensene.com Mon Feb 6 09:58:32 2006 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 07:58:32 -0800 Subject: Signetics 8266 In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0602051649l6169bb6cu@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001c62b36$2e051070$030aa8c0@bensene.com> Hi, all, I've run across an old calculator that uses a couple of Signetics 8266 data selectors (selects one of two groups of 4-bit inputs). The problem is that this part is different than the 74157 -- it inverts one set of the inputs, and its select inputs are different. There's not enough room in the circuit board to kludge in a logical replacement, and I've searched high and low to try to find a couple of these. I'm positive that one of them is bad, as I can watch the inputs with a scope, and compare with the outputs, and there's one data line that is stuck high. Anyone out there happen to have one or two of these laying around that they'd be willing to part with for a reasonable price, or, perhaps know of a supplier where I might be able to buy a few of them? Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Wen Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 6 10:00:54 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 10:00:54 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: <43E5A53F.6010806@gjcp.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060206100054.32e7d0d8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:11 AM 2/5/06 +0000, you wrote: >Tony Duell wrote: >>> I'm a little curious--what kind of success might one have reading old (20+ >>> years) HP tapes written on an HP9835? I was asked this recently and I >>> opined that based on what I'd heard, particularly from the HP calculator >>> group, that the chances of retrieving error-free data was not all that >>> good. >>> >>> Was I accurate? Or are the 98xx tapes an exception? >> >> Alas fairly low. The tapes for the 98x5 machines are much the same >> construction as those for the HP85. The problem is that the belt sticks >> to the oxide layer on the tape, and/or the tape sticks together, and you >> get major loss of the magnetic coating when you try to read the tape. >> Needless to say this makes it unreadable. > >Is that specific to the HP tapes, or are all the similar tapes just as >bad? And is there a way to prevent this, like maybe taking it apart and >removing the belt first? I don't know of any way to prevent it. The case of NIB HP tapes that I had had been stored inside in an airconditioned building on an Air Force base so storage conditions don't seem to be a factor. Other brands of compatible tapes such as the DEC CompacTape (or whatever they call it) and the PC 40 Mb tapes seem to have the same problems but not as often. But I think they're all going to deteriorate soon. I THINK the DEC and PC may be a bit newer. The HP Journal that talked about these tape drives said that the tapes and drives were developed by 3M and HP. So I believe HP was the first to use them so the HP tapes are probably the oldest out there. I don't know what good taking the belt off would do. I urge everyone to gather their tapes up and try to have someone read them and store the contents to disk or some other media. Joe > >Gordon. > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 6 10:40:48 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 10:40:48 Subject: speaking of Intel computers - ARPA DOT? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060206104048.4f4f9e64@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I was out scrounging yesterday and found an odd looking computer (I THINK it was a computer) with a name plate that said ARPA DOT. Any idea what this is? It was heavy aluminium case about two foot high and about 8 inches wide and about 2 foot deep. The top edges were cut at 45d angle about 1" high and the bottom flared out about 1 1/2" on each side and the case was painted a dark grey. On the bottom front was a brass name plate that was screwed to the case. The name plate said ISSI Intel ARPA DOT and was arranged like this: ARPA ISSI Intel DOT The case had two large vertical card solts that opened in the front. The one on the left had a 3 1/2" hard drive in it. The one on the right was emply but looked like it held the CPU, memory etc. There didn't appear to be any electonics in the case except for the power supply. The "drive board" had a small HD SCSI connector on the front but there were no other connectors on the outside the case except for one for an AC power cord. It was definitely unique looking but since the main board was missing and I had a full load I passed it up. I TRY to keep my digital camera with me for opportunities like this but I was driving a different car and didn't have it. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 6 10:53:35 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 10:53:35 Subject: IPC manuals? In-Reply-To: <5AEBB65F-467A-49C8-8F46-EB2D14618FD6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060206105335.4f4f30aa@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi Al, I remember. I know you want to scan my manuals but I THOUGHT that one or two manuals were already posted somewhere. Someone posted some of the SW but I couldn't find the manuals. BTW good luck on the bidding! I'm tempted but I have enough of them. Joe At 09:00 PM 2/4/06 -0800, Al K wrote: > > > Does anyone if the HP IPC manuals are scanned and posted online > >We exchanged some mail about it, but I needed to clear the backlog >of 98x6 stuff first. > >I have the service manual scanned, but it isn't on line yet. > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 6 10:49:54 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 10:49:54 Subject: Intel 80286 "DCU" Multibus system In-Reply-To: <43E60524.2050000@yahoo.co.uk> References: <3.0.6.16.20060204225142.2dd787a6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060204225142.2dd787a6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060206104954.32e7e0fe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:01 PM 2/5/06 +0000, you wrote: >Joe R. wrote: >> At 11:58 PM 2/4/06 +0000, you wrote: >>> Anyone know anything about these? >> >> I've never heard of them and I collect Multibus cards and systems. > >I was hoping you'd speak up :) > > >> Is it >> an Intel system or does it just use Intel boards? Intel started selling the >> boards seaparely specificly so that people could build their own systems >> with them. > >All Intel - seems to be more commonly known as an Intel 310. I think you're right. I have a BRIEF description of the 310 in one of my Intel catalogs but since you know what cards are in it you probably already know more than what the description tells. I have some manuals for the 330 system which is part of the same series but I doubt they're be on any real help. I've been looking for manuals for the 310 myself. Hmm. I've been dealing with one of the Multibus retailers lately. I should see if he has any 310 manuals. Is ther anything that you're specificly trying to find out? (other than how to get around the passwoards!) > >Couple of pics of the outside at: > >http://www.patooie.com/temp/intel_310_front.jpg >http://www.patooie.com/temp/intel_310_back.jpg > >>> PSYP310-90C >> >> Are you sure that that's a board number? It sounds like it might be the >> model number and I've never heard of a board with that number. Intel did >> build a computer with that model number. > >Yes, I suspect that's overall model number - or maybe a part number for the >case, assuming it was unique to this system. > >> I probably have docs for some of the cards but for now you can look up >> the cards (and pictures and brief descriptions) here >> . > >Thanks - I was looking for that URL as I remember you posting it a few months ago! > >(Incidentally, I can grab pics of my NCR Tower's multibus boards for you >sometime if you want - I think I've got an MSC board here at home, then the >machine is over at Bletchley and has the CPU, HPSIO, Ethernet and HPMSC boards >in it) Sure send them along. I like to add information about the systems that the boards are found in. > >> Can you send or post a picture of the unit? > >see above :) > >> BTW it most likely has iRMX or iRMX86 installed on the system and you'll > > have to have a paasword to get into it. Speaking from experience :-( > >Yep :-( That or Xenix. Not sure how to get around that one - I can get round >passwords on SCSI disks easy enough but I've got no way of hooking that >ST506/412 drive to anything more modern in order to modify it :( I wish I could help but I don't know either. I wonder if anybody has Linux running on a system with a ST 412 controller and might be able to hack into the drive and delete/change the password. > >> The Intel computers (other than the MDSs) that I have only have a >> plastic Intel badge on them and no other markings except the board list on >> the bottom of the case. > >Yep, sounds like we have the same thing then... Yeap. I looked at your pictures and it's definitely an Intel system. That case looks like the same one that they used for the expansion chassis and some of their external drive chassis for the MDSs. Joe > >cheers > >Jules > From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Feb 6 10:02:51 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 08:02:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? In-Reply-To: References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> <43E6E0BD.1020702@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Feb 2006, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 2/6/06, Don North wrote: >> I don't have a good solution to this other than don't configure heavily >> loaded / very long UNIBUS segments if you plan to use the 26S10. I don't >> see another part that is usable however (other than salvaging old 8641s). > > For Unibus projects, I happen to have tubes of NOS 8641s left over > from the COMBOARD days (as well as several cubic feet of scrap > COMBOARDs with several 8641s each, if one wants to pull them from a > 6-layer board). We used 8641s and DC013s for our Unibus interface > layer (and real DEC DC005s and DC010s for our Qbus boards). > > I don't think I could supply all the Unibus hobbyists in the world, > but I have enough chips for a limited run of new boards. Still, I > think it'd be nice to find something modern that works for bus drivers > and bus receivers. > > -ethan > What about 7406's for drivers and a quad comparator or differential line reciever for the receiver side. That way the input threshold would be settable... Peter Wallace From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Feb 6 10:14:49 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 10:14:49 -0600 Subject: Signetics 8266 In-Reply-To: <000001c62b36$2e051070$030aa8c0@bensene.com> References: <11c909eb0602051649l6169bb6cu@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060206101328.025b65a8@mail.ubanproductions.com> In a pinch, you might be able to fit a logical equivalent circuit using either some surface mount parts or a PAL/GAL... --tom At 07:58 AM 2/6/2006 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, all, > >I've run across an old calculator that uses a couple of Signetics 8266 data >selectors (selects one of two groups of 4-bit inputs). The problem is that >this part is different than the 74157 -- it inverts one set of the inputs, >and its select inputs are different. There's not enough room in the circuit >board to kludge in a logical replacement, and I've searched high and low to >try to find a couple of these. I'm positive that one of them is bad, as I >can watch the inputs with a scope, and compare with the outputs, and there's >one data line that is stuck high. > >Anyone out there happen to have one or two of these laying around that >they'd be willing to part with for a reasonable price, or, perhaps know of a >supplier where I might be able to buy a few of them? > >Rick Bensene >The Old Calculator Wen Museum >http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 6 10:19:03 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 09:19:03 -0700 Subject: Affects of moisture (or lack thereof) on components (was: Powering up sleeping uVAX II) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Feb 2006 10:24:10 -0500. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > [...] If a cap blows, chances are > great that it was failing due to another reason (moisture getting thru the > seals is a culprit), and would have blown at some point anyway. I live in the desert. I've seen comments that excessive moisture can be damaging for components (such as above) and I've seen photos of monitors that have some funky spotting on them from being stored in very humid environments (like a SF bay area garage). Does anything bad happen to electronics that are stored in very dry conditions for long periods of time? Cities like this would be anything in Utah, Arizona, Nevada and Idaho (Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Boise, Reno, etc.). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Feb 6 10:20:07 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 10:20:07 -0600 Subject: speaking of Intel computers - ARPA DOT? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060206104048.4f4f9e64@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060206104048.4f4f9e64@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060206101446.054bde80@mail> At 04:40 AM 2/6/2006, you wrote: > It was heavy aluminium case about two foot high and about 8 inches wide >and about 2 foot deep. The top edges were cut at 45d angle about 1" high >and the bottom flared out about 1 1/2" on each side and the case was >painted a dark grey. On the bottom front was a brass name plate that was >screwed to the case. The name plate said ISSI Intel ARPA DOT and was >arranged like this: A guess: ISSI Inter-Switching System Interface. Standard interface between SMDS switches. SMDS Switched Multimegabit Data Service. A metropolitan area packet switching data network using T-1 and T-3 lines. DOT: Dept. of Transportation? - John From vrs at msn.com Mon Feb 6 10:34:43 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 08:34:43 -0800 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com><43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com><43E6E0BD.1020702@mindspring.com> Message-ID: > What about 7406's for drivers and a quad comparator or differential line > reciever for the receiver side. That way the input threshold would be > settable... I looked at the 7438 for drivers and the TL3116 comparator for the receiver for a while. I found that comparators were pretty spendy if you get them fast enough. I also had some trouble finding a quad part for an "ultra-fast" comparator. The worst problem then was with the real-estate. You really don't want a zillion 8 pin parts on the boards :-). (There were some inexpensive possibilities that weren't rail-to-rail, and so would need to run off the +/-15V or something.) I think we may be forced down that path when parts like the Am26S10 are no longer readily available. Vince From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 6 10:41:12 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 16:41:12 +0000 Subject: Intel 80286 "DCU" Multibus system In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060206104954.32e7e0fe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060204225142.2dd787a6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060204225142.2dd787a6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060206104954.32e7e0fe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43E77C28.4040400@yahoo.co.uk> Joe R. wrote: > I have some manuals for the 330 system which is part of the same series > but I doubt they're be on any real help. Well it turns out there's some useful stuff on Bitsavers - it only seems to cover the earlier 286/10 boards (and no mention of the 1MB memory board that's in this system), but it's enough to be getting on with. > Is ther anything that you're specificly trying to find out? (other than > how to get around the passwoards!) Well I think the bitsavers info should be enough to go on in order to drive the internal diagnostics, so passwords are then really the only problem assuming the hard disk even works (the rest of the system seems in good condition, so I think there's a good chance it'll be OK). I think my initial curiousity was that it was an oddball Intel machine with Ethernet support - I didn't know that Intel actually branched out into building their own minis along with the MDS line. >> (Incidentally, I can grab pics of my NCR Tower's multibus boards for you >> sometime if you want - I think I've got an MSC board here at home, then the >> machine is over at Bletchley and has the CPU, HPSIO, Ethernet and HPMSC > boards in it) > > Sure send them along. I like to add information about the systems that > the boards are found in. No probs - will try and get something this coming weekend. >>> BTW it most likely has iRMX or iRMX86 installed on the system and you'll >>> have to have a paasword to get into it. Speaking from experience :-( >> Yep :-( That or Xenix. Not sure how to get around that one - I can get > round >> passwords on SCSI disks easy enough but I've got no way of hooking that >> ST506/412 drive to anything more modern in order to modify it :( > > I wish I could help but I don't know either. I wonder if anybody has > Linux running on a system with a ST 412 controller and might be able to > hack into the drive and delete/change the password. Usual ST controller problem then though in that the PC's controller likely won't talk nicely to the format used by the Intel machine :-( Someone with a few years worth of rainy days could do something from the 310's built in debugger I suppose ;) > Yeap. I looked at your pictures and it's definitely an Intel system. > That case looks like the same one that they used for the expansion chassis > and some of their external drive chassis for the MDSs. Ahh, you know I had wondered after I left the site, but didn't have any photos of our MDS systems handy at the time. Makes sense that they'd just re-use the case, though. cheers Jules From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 10:39:27 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:39:27 -0500 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? In-Reply-To: <43E6FBFB.8030105@mindspring.com> References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> <43E6F414.1050102@mindspring.com> <43E6FBFB.8030105@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On 2/6/06, Don North wrote: > It's not clear from the above discussion from 9000vax as to what he used > for the bus receiver; he just describes using the 7406 as an output > driver on QBUS. Not clear what he uses on input. > I use ALTERA EPM1270 CPLD to receive QBUS directly. It has 4V absolute max input level but I can enable the internal diode to limit the possible voltage surge (in PCI pin compatible mode). I set the input level to 3.3V LVTTL for a time and it worked OK too. vax, 9000 From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 6 10:40:07 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 09:40:07 -0700 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Feb 2006 10:00:54. <3.0.6.16.20060206100054.32e7d0d8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: In article <3.0.6.16.20060206100054.32e7d0d8 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com>, "Joe R." writes: > I urge everyone to gather their tapes up and try to have someone read > them and store the contents to disk or some other media. I can understand that important stuff may be out there for HP-85s, since they are actual computers. The 2648A is a terminal though. A very sophisticated terminal, but just a terminal. Its my impression that the tapes would have been used for storing entered data or plot data as the terminal has an "autoplot" feature (very cool, I only learned about this last night and didn't know it back in 78 :-). Was there ever any "software" made for the 2648A? I don't see anything in the service, reference or user's manual for it. (A big thanks to hpmuseum.net for having all that stuff scanned!) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From vrs at msn.com Mon Feb 6 10:40:50 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 08:40:50 -0800 Subject: Intel 80286 "DCU" Multibus system References: <3.0.6.16.20060204225142.2dd787a6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><3.0.6.16.20060204225142.2dd787a6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060206104954.32e7e0fe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > >Yep :-( That or Xenix. Not sure how to get around that one - I can get > round > >passwords on SCSI disks easy enough but I've got no way of hooking that > >ST506/412 drive to anything more modern in order to modify it :( > > I wish I could help but I don't know either. I wonder if anybody has > Linux running on a system with a ST 412 controller and might be able to > hack into the drive and delete/change the password. If it's XENIX, I have the install floppies. You should be able to boot from floppy, mount the root partition, and just remove the password from /mnt/etc/passwd. (They weren't even shadowed in those days.) (My floppies are the pilot units, though, so I am not eager to part with them. Maybe I could figure out how to duplicate them.) Vince From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 10:42:32 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:42:32 -0500 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? In-Reply-To: References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> <43E6F414.1050102@mindspring.com> <43E6FBFB.8030105@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On 2/6/06, 9000 VAX wrote: > I use ALTERA EPM1270 CPLD to receive QBUS directly. It has 4V absolute > max input level but I can enable the internal diode to limit the > possible voltage surge (in PCI pin compatible mode). I set the input > level to 3.3V LVTTL for a time and it worked OK too. On the REV.0 board I used 74LS14 to receive critical lines (DIN, DOUT, RPLY...), and plain LSTTL for other non critical lines (DAL0-22, WTBT, BS7...) and it worked OK too. > > vax, 9000 > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 6 10:59:26 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 16:59:26 +0000 Subject: Intel 80286 "DCU" Multibus system In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20060204225142.2dd787a6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><3.0.6.16.20060204225142.2dd787a6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060206104954.32e7e0fe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43E7806E.5030209@yahoo.co.uk> vrs wrote: >>> Yep :-( That or Xenix. Not sure how to get around that one - I can get >> round >>> passwords on SCSI disks easy enough but I've got no way of hooking that >>> ST506/412 drive to anything more modern in order to modify it :( >> I wish I could help but I don't know either. I wonder if anybody has >> Linux running on a system with a ST 412 controller and might be able to >> hack into the drive and delete/change the password. > > If it's XENIX, I have the install floppies. You should be able to boot > from floppy, mount the root partition, and just remove the password from > /mnt/etc/passwd. (They weren't even shadowed in those days.) Yep, true :) > (My floppies are the pilot units, though, so I am not eager to part > with them. Maybe I could figure out how to duplicate them.) Hmm, well I expect Imagedisk on a suitable PC will produce an image of them. I doubt the systems used anything particularly strange for the disk controller, so they're probably fairly standard geometry FM or MFM format. I don't mind doing a fresh install if needs be - although it'd be nice to nose around the hard disk and see what the machine was used for. At the end of the day though, having something that works and can be maintained in working condition is more important! :-) cheers Jules From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Feb 6 11:07:53 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:07:53 -0800 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: <200602050937.16761.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <200602060907.54155.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 06 February 2006 01:23, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sun, 5 Feb 2006, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > How do you heat them? How do you know when "enough is enough" heat? > > I take a lamp with a strong light bulb (ordinary 100W or a halogen lamp) > and hold the tape near the bulb. I constantly move the tape so there will > be no overheating at some spots. Actually you can see when the belt goes > from the sticky to the non-sticky condition. Before it has a whitish > coating, when applying heat to the belt it gets black again and might show > a shiny surface. > The advantage of this method is that you can see what is going on and > react accordingly. Thanks! Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ken at seefried.com Mon Feb 6 11:09:56 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 12:09:56 -0500 Subject: Intel 80286 "DCU" Multibus system In-Reply-To: <200602050453.k154pfO6058001@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200602050453.k154pfO6058001@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060206170956.5644.qmail@seefried.com> > From: Jules Richardson > > The CPU board has an extra 1MB memory board fitted, > This would likely be an iLBX bus memory card. > > a daughterboard which goes > to the possible-console connector, and a battery-backed clock card (luckily > there's minimum damage from battery corrosion) > These would likely be iSBX bus cards. Definately looks like some variation on a 310 to me. From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Feb 6 11:29:11 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:29:11 -0500 Subject: Juki 6100 printer on e-bay In-Reply-To: <490d9df44d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <490d9df44d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <200602061229.11632.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 05 February 2006 04:35 pm, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Oh, absolutely. Alas in the case of this sort of computer stuff it's a > > matter of seeing what corners can be cut, what can be left out, etc (I > > have an aversion to floppy drives without a track0 sensor, for example!). > > The CBM 1541. (in)famous for the *BANG* sound you got when the head hit the > end stop. Probably why they ended up going out of alignment quite > quickly... > > At least, I *think* it was the 1541. Same drive that had a stupidly > underrated power supply that tended to blow with the slightest provocation. Yep. They used a 1 amp bridge rectifier in there, which I've replaced a few of with a 4A part having a similar form factor and which was purchased at radio shack. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dogas at bellsouth.net Mon Feb 6 11:33:41 2006 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (dogas at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:33:41 -0500 Subject: best yardsale in a decade Message-ID: <20060206173341.MZJS29637.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> yep, the ad in the paper said 'free osciliscope and electronics parts' Tony would have had a boner at this one. I picked up a nice Tek 422 scope with 3 probes, and then filled the car with boxes of TTL, and every other type discrete electronics, a few power supplies and a few other goodies packed within. There was a boxed Imsai PIO-4 and a few other s100 cards (8k static and a few wirewrapped z80 processors). There were a few incredible chips in pile that the foam really screwed up... check out: http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/chips1.jpg There was a ceramic C8080A with the pins completly eaten away , a Ceramic MOS 6532 that faired only a little better, a ceramic/traced AMI 6810, and a early plastic 6502 and 6530 among the more conventional stuff. Any recommendations on neutralizing/cleaning the gunk of the ceramics? Oh yeah, then there was the boxed SD Z-80 Starter Kit SBC with manual and cassette. A sweet little sbc with 2 s-100 slots (installable) but I had to buy that one for $8 It has been a long dry season and all I can say is its about damn time. ;) - Mike: dogas at bellsouth.net From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Feb 6 11:30:33 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:30:33 -0500 Subject: Mythbusters (was: OT - Need fuse and jumpers from APC battery pack) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602061230.33702.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 05 February 2006 05:33 pm, Richard wrote: > In article <200602041206.30714.rtellason at blazenet.net>, > > "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > > > Like, say, for example, ads that advertised ruggedized computers by > > > saying they could survive a drop from the empire state building... > > > > > > Were there any? ;-) That would be a good show... > > > > There was some "event" out on the west coast a while back where they did > > just that sort of thing, dropping computers off of the top of a > > building. [...] > > In 1978 I was told that Ma Bell telephones would survive a drop from a > 3-story building. I was in disbelief. I was made a believer by > throwing a phone out a window and collecting it from the ground below. > The plastic has some scuffs and scrapes on it, but everything worked > and nothing was broken. The really old phones were built *solid*, I don't know what kind of plastic that was, but you could do all sorts of stuff with them and they'd keep on working. Not like the crap that's being sold these days... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 6 11:36:37 2006 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 09:36:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari 800 Schematics In-Reply-To: <200602061624.k16GO2HF079223@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060206173637.91631.qmail@web50503.mail.yahoo.com> > Anyone has the schematic diagrams of the Atari 800 ? Not the 800xl ! > > Alberto The Atari 400/800 Technical Reference Notes (which include schematics) are on-line here: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/kryten_droid/Atari/800XL/Atari_technical_reference.htm Bill __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Feb 6 11:34:17 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:34:17 -0500 Subject: Juki 6100 printer on e-bay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602061234.17126.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 05 February 2006 05:45 pm, Richard wrote: > In article <200602041732.26210.rtellason at blazenet.net>, > > "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > > couple of big old printers in storage, one being an NEC "Spinwriter" > > (uses a thing they called a "thimble" instead of a daisywheel but it's > > the same idea) > > Spinwriter? This doesn't use a diablo style print wheel, does it? I dunno from "diablo style", it uses a thingy they called a "thimble", which should give you a rough idea of how it was shaped. Something vaguely like "\_/", I think. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Feb 6 11:56:50 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:56:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Affects of moisture (or lack thereof) on components (was: Powering up sleeping uVAX II) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Does anything bad happen to electronics that are stored in very dry > conditions for long periods of time? Cities like this would be anything > in Utah, Arizona, Nevada and Idaho (Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, Phoenix, > Boise, Reno, etc.). I would not think so, as long as the items are protcted from the sun and static discharg (higher in the dry heat, obviously). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Feb 6 12:14:50 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:14:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: emulator Message-ID: <200602061814.KAA20660@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi Although, it would be nice to find someone with an ICE for the V25, many in our group would be able to help you with as little as an oscilloscope and a simple disassembled listing from the EPROM. Using a digital oscilloscope or a logic analyzer could speed things along. There are a few members of our group in Germany that would be able to help you out. The 186 is a relatively well known processor. Dwight >From: "werner busch" > >Dear Sirs, > >we need Your help for analyzing a the software of a control unit. >We are a German Company and the unit is not longer supported by developer. >( company is down). > >Target is to analyze some parts of the software and make some little changes. >( change 2 parameters dirct in software). > >The cpu on control unit is a NEC V25 / V25+ (80186 derivate, 84-pin PLCC ), software is on eeprom 512 KByte. > >We want to trace the running program, analyze some parts, see registers etc. > >Is this possible with one of your systems ? > >Please tell us what we need to reach our target and what are the price for the system we need. > > >Kind Regards > >Busch-Automation >Werner Busch > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 6 12:17:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 10:17:16 -0800 Subject: Juki 6100 printer on e-bay In-Reply-To: <200602061234.17126.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200602061234.17126.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200602061017160545.6749C3CC@10.0.0.252> On 2/6/2006 at 12:34 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> Spinwriter? This doesn't use a diablo style print wheel, does it? > >I dunno from "diablo style", it uses a thingy they called a "thimble", >which >should give you a rough idea of how it was shaped. Something vaguely like >"\_/", I think. Think of a cup, whose sides have been slit into many 1/8" or so wide strips. At the end of each strip where the cup rim would be, you find a character molded into the plastic. Basically a daisywheel where someone has severely punched in the hub. The hammer strikes from the inside of the cup. NEC was about the first on the scene after Diablo and Qume with any sort of daisywheel-like technoloty. The pritners were definitely lighter-weight than the corresponding Diablo "built like a brick outhouse" version--and they seemed more cheaply constructed. No clear benefit to the thimble technology and a little more difficult to change thimbles. I don't think daisywheel printers were terribly popular in Japan, due to the limited character set. On the other hand, the Japanese took dot-matrix technology and refined it to a fare-thee-well. I recall being very impressed the first time I saw an Okidata printer with a 22-wire printhead. At the time, the Oki reps weren't even sure that they were going to market the printer in the US, because the thought was that no one wanted to pay for high-quality dot matrix printers with huge character sets. Sanders was pushing a multipass 9 wire printer for higher quality. Cheers, Chuck From ygehrich at yahoo.com Mon Feb 6 12:46:54 2006 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 13:46:54 -0500 Subject: Juki 6100 versus Juki 6000 In-Reply-To: <200602061017160545.6749C3CC@10.0.0.252> References: <200602061234.17126.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200602061017160545.6749C3CC@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060206134542.0433c7b8@yahoo.com> Can anyone tell me the difference between the Juki 6000 and the Juki 6100 printers? I did a lot of googling but did not find the answer. From alberto at a2sistemi.it Mon Feb 6 12:56:43 2006 From: alberto at a2sistemi.it (Alberto Rubinelli - A2 Sistemi) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:56:43 +0100 Subject: Atari 800 Schematics In-Reply-To: <20060206173637.91631.qmail@web50503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > The Atari 400/800 Technical Reference Notes (which include > schematics) are on-line here: > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/kryten_droid/Atari/800XL/Atari_techni > cal_reference.htm GREAT !!! Thanks Bill ! Alberto ------------------------------------------------------ Alberto Rubinelli Mail : alberto at a2sistemi.it A2 SISTEMI Web : www.a2sistemi.it Via Costantino Perazzi 22 Tel +39 0321 640149 28100 NOVARA (NO) - ITALY Fax +39 0321 391769 Skype : albertorubinelli Mobile +39 335 6026632 Il mio museo di vecchi computers/My old computers museum http://www.retrocomputing.net ICQ : 49872318 ------------------------------------------------------ From vrs at msn.com Mon Feb 6 12:59:49 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:59:49 -0800 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibuscard? References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com><43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com><43E6F414.1050102@mindspring.com><43E6FBFB.8030105@mindspring.com> Message-ID: From: "9000 VAX" > On the REV.0 board I used 74LS14 to receive critical lines (DIN, DOUT, > RPLY...), and plain LSTTL for other non critical lines (DAL0-22, WTBT, > BS7...) and it worked OK too. Ouch. I'd at least use the 74HCT14, to reduce the bus loading. That way, the problems will show up with your device, rather than some other :-). But you still won't get much noise immunity from the 0.6V Vil. Vince From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Feb 6 13:30:28 2006 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:30:28 -0500 Subject: Affects of moisture (or lack thereof) on components (was: Powering up sleeping uVAX II) Message-ID: > Does anything bad happen to electronics that are stored in very dry > conditions for long periods of time? Cities like this would be anything > in Utah, Arizona, Nevada and Idaho (Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, Phoenix, > Boise, Reno, etc.). In places that are hot and have lots of pollution/ozone (e.g. Los Angeles) foams and rubber and plastics can become brittle and crumble/fall apart much more readily than other places. Sunlight combined with heat and ozone is particularly brutal. Of the places you name, Phoenix is the one I know of that has some pollution/ozone issues but in my limitied time there (springtime, with temps in the 90's) the pollution didn't seem so awful. Tim. From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 13:33:49 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:33:49 -0500 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibuscard? In-Reply-To: References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> <43E6F414.1050102@mindspring.com> <43E6FBFB.8030105@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On 2/6/06, vrs wrote: > From: "9000 VAX" > > On the REV.0 board I used 74LS14 to receive critical lines (DIN, DOUT, > > RPLY...), and plain LSTTL for other non critical lines (DAL0-22, WTBT, > > BS7...) and it worked OK too. > > Ouch. I'd at least use the 74HCT14, to reduce the bus loading. That > way, the problems will show up with your device, rather than some > other :-). REV.0 was not suppose to be used in a big system any way. 74HCT14 has a lower load, but its voltage range is too big. > > But you still won't get much noise immunity from the 0.6V Vil. > > Vince > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 6 13:44:31 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:44:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help in identifying some items Message-ID: <20060206194431.61731.qmail@web81108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I bought a few items from the govliquidation web site that I'm looking for information on. The first is a Univac data buffer. It was designed for shipboard use and is in a very heavy case. Photos can be seen at: http://www.dvq.com select "old computers" then "misc. computer stuff" it's toward the bottom. Any idea what it was used for? The other item is a Singer magnetic disk unit. Three large photos are here: http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos/singer1.JPG http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos/singer2.JPG http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos/singer3.JPG Does anyone know what systems/computers these were used with? I have four of them. Thanks, Bob From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Feb 6 14:05:33 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 12:05:33 -0800 Subject: Affects of moisture (or lack thereof) on components (was: Powering up sleeping uVAX II) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602061205.33647.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 06 February 2006 08:19, Richard wrote: > Does anything bad happen to electronics that are stored in very dry > conditions for long periods of time? Cities like this would be anything > in Utah, Arizona, Nevada and Idaho (Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, Phoenix, > Boise, Reno, etc.). I pickup a lot of vintage gear the southern S.F. Bay Area (mostly Silicon Valley) - which has what is called a "Mediterranean" climate - generally "mild" temperatures and a typical humidity in the 25%-35% range. (Not quite desert, but practically no rain from May to October). Other than the usual DEC foam problems and HP rubber/capstan problems, which seem to be unrelated to climate, equipment stored under a roof here is generally in excellent condition. Equipment I've received from humid environments often has rust, mildew, damaged capacitors, etc. Based on years of collecting experience, I'm a firm believer that climate plays a very important role in the condition of vintage gear that hasn't "lived" in a controlled environment. BTW: Slightly "off-topic" - vintage cars are also in abundance here for the same reason. I have a 1973 Mustang Convertable, and it has practically no rust - and it's rubber parts are almost entirely original and in good shape. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From allain at panix.com Mon Feb 6 14:19:02 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 15:19:02 -0500 Subject: Powering up sleeping uVAX II References: Message-ID: <00dd01c62b5a$9317cf60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Unless the economics have drastically changed in the past 5 or 10 > years, a uVax II in a BA23 has a street value of $50 tops. I'd resist this characterization. I witnessed uVII's go through the $50 point 3 or 4 years ago. When that happens to a price of a thing of this size usually it will first disappear, then, (bounce) increase in value for those still looking for one. Also, VAXes have completely disappeared from "Processor", the resellers magazine for one. John A. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 6 15:18:01 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:18:01 Subject: Intel 80286 "DCU" Multibus system In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20060204225142.2dd787a6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060204225142.2dd787a6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060206104954.32e7e0fe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060206151801.32cfc050@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Vince, Do you have floppies for an Intel system???? If so which system? I have floppies for Tandy XENIX and IBM PC XENIX but not for the Intels. I have an Intel that runs XENIX and I have't been able to get past the password on it either. Joe At 08:40 AM 2/6/06 -0800, you wrote: >> >Yep :-( That or Xenix. Not sure how to get around that one - I can get >> round >> >passwords on SCSI disks easy enough but I've got no way of hooking that >> >ST506/412 drive to anything more modern in order to modify it :( >> >> I wish I could help but I don't know either. I wonder if anybody has >> Linux running on a system with a ST 412 controller and might be able to >> hack into the drive and delete/change the password. > >If it's XENIX, I have the install floppies. You should be able to boot >from floppy, mount the root partition, and just remove the password from >/mnt/etc/passwd. (They weren't even shadowed in those days.) > >(My floppies are the pilot units, though, so I am not eager to part >with them. Maybe I could figure out how to duplicate them.) > > Vince > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 6 15:15:22 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:15:22 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: <"06 Feb 2006 10:00:54." <3.0.6.16.20060206100054.32e7d0d8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060206151522.32cf049a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:40 AM 2/6/06 -0700, Richard wrote: > >In article <3.0.6.16.20060206100054.32e7d0d8 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com>, > "Joe R." writes: > >> I urge everyone to gather their tapes up and try to have someone read >> them and store the contents to disk or some other media. > >I can understand that important stuff may be out there for HP-85s, >since they are actual computers. The 2648A is a terminal though. A >very sophisticated terminal, but just a terminal. Its my impression >that the tapes would have been used for storing entered data or plot >data as the terminal has an "autoplot" feature (very cool, I only >learned about this last night and didn't know it back in 78 :-). > >Was there ever any "software" made for the 2648A? I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me if there was. But there are lots of other systems that use the same drives and tapes such as the HP 9845, 9835, 9825 calculator/computers along with LOTs of their test equipment. Joe I don't see >anything in the service, reference or user's manual for it. (A big >thanks to hpmuseum.net for having all that stuff scanned!) >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 6 15:22:04 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:22:04 Subject: Intel 80286 "DCU" Multibus system In-Reply-To: <43E77C28.4040400@yahoo.co.uk> References: <3.0.6.16.20060206104954.32e7e0fe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060204225142.2dd787a6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060204225142.2dd787a6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060206104954.32e7e0fe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060206152204.121f5a68@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:41 PM 2/6/06 +0000, you wrote: >Joe R. wrote: > >>>> BTW it most likely has iRMX or iRMX86 installed on the system and you'll >>>> have to have a paasword to get into it. Speaking from experience :-( >>> Yep :-( That or Xenix. Not sure how to get around that one - I can get >> round >>> passwords on SCSI disks easy enough but I've got no way of hooking that >>> ST506/412 drive to anything more modern in order to modify it :( >> >> I wish I could help but I don't know either. I wonder if anybody has >> Linux running on a system with a ST 412 controller and might be able to >> hack into the drive and delete/change the password. > >Usual ST controller problem then though in that the PC's controller likely >won't talk nicely to the format used by the Intel machine :-( I know. That's why I suggested Linux. With it they may be able to program the controller to read the Intel format. > >Someone with a few years worth of rainy days could do something from the 310's >built in debugger I suppose ;) I've played with the debugger and I don't think it had any functions to allow raw disk reads. BTW the debugger is simple and easy to figure out. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 6 15:47:40 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:47:40 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20060204223806.47871042@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060206154740.121fc9ca@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:59 PM 2/5/06 +0000, Tony wrote: >> big DC-600 type tapes used in the HP 9144, etc. They did use a different >> tape in some earlier products but they were VERY different and immediately >> recognizable. I have a couple of those drives but I've never seen a tape >> for them. It was driven like an audio cassette tape via the hubs. > >If that's the tape I'm thinking of, it's used in the 9830, and I think >also the 982. There was an external tape drive for these machines that I >forget the number of (HP9865???) No, the drives and tapes used on the 9830, 9865, and the other 98x0 machines is an earlier tape and it's different. They're more like audio tapes and have an all plastic shell and the tape is driven via the hubs. The tapes that I was talking about are similar to the HP-85 tapes but much larger (DC-600 size) and use an aluminium base plate and are used in the HP 9142, 9144 and 7942 and similar drives. FWIW some of these larger tapes are marked 16 track and others are 32 track but they both look alike. > >The tapes are mechanically compatible with audio compact cassettes, but the >tape is almost certainly different. These drives detect the clear leader >by an optical sensor that reflects off the inside of the cassette shell >where you'd expect the capstan/pinch roller to be, you need to use a >light-coloured cassette. I've got a few Verbatim digital cassettes that >work fine in my 9830. That's good to know. I have a 9830 and a 9865 but I've never tried to use the tape drives in them. > >Interesting thing : That drive is mechanically very similar to the one in >a Racal Thermionic Digideck. Similar enough that some parts will >interchange. And the encoding scheme -- a pulse on one track for a '1', a >pulse on the other track for a '0' and a pulse on both tracks for a >marker (in the case of the HP, it's a byte marker) is the same too. As is >the dact that the thing records 9 bits for each byte, the middle bit is >some kind of marker to distinuish headers from data (the advantage of >making it the middle bit is that you can read it with the tape moving in >either direction. > >I would guess that the mechanism is not wholely an HP design/build... Probably not. I don't really know anything about those older drives but I know that the HP Journal said that the later drives (HP-85 style) was a joint program bewteen HP and 3M so I'm assuming that onr or the other (or both of them) designed it. Joe > >-tony > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 6 15:25:20 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:25:20 Subject: best yardsale in a decade In-Reply-To: <20060206173341.MZJS29637.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bells outh.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060206152520.403fcf6e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> You lucky dog! Dammed shame about those ICs! Are you coming down for the hamfest? Joe At 12:33 PM 2/6/06 -0500, you wrote: >yep, the ad in the paper said 'free osciliscope and electronics parts' Tony would have had a boner at this one. > >I picked up a nice Tek 422 scope with 3 probes, and then filled the car with boxes of TTL, and every other type discrete electronics, a few power supplies and a few other goodies packed within. There was a boxed Imsai PIO-4 and a few other s100 cards (8k static and a few wirewrapped z80 processors). There were a few incredible chips in pile that the foam really screwed up... check out: > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/chips1.jpg > >There was a ceramic C8080A with the pins completly eaten away , a Ceramic MOS 6532 that faired only a little better, a ceramic/traced AMI 6810, and a early plastic 6502 and 6530 among the more conventional stuff. Any recommendations on neutralizing/cleaning the gunk of the ceramics? > >Oh yeah, then there was the boxed SD Z-80 Starter Kit SBC with manual and cassette. A sweet little sbc with 2 s-100 slots (installable) but I had to buy that one for $8 > >It has been a long dry season and all I can say is its about damn time. > >;) >- Mike: dogas at bellsouth.net > > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 6 15:32:53 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:32:53 -0700 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:47:40. <3.0.6.16.20060206154740.121fc9ca@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: I picked up a 2nd 2648A in Boise, ID and the capstans look intact on this one (looking into the case from the tape slot). This gives me one crappy unit for spares and one good condition unit for play :-). Now what's a good way to clean the stateful switches on the top of the keyboard? One of the keyboards has switches that don't release without a little manual assistance. I figure gunk has gotten into the switch mechanism over time. I'm *not* going to put this guy through the dishwasher, I'm too scared of what might happen ;-). Also, some people were saying that they had a keyboard "without the tape controls on top", but everything I can see in the 2648A manuals shows that all the keyboards have the tape controls, but your keyboard might not have the key overlay. Can someone show me a picture of the keyboard *without* the tape controls for comparison and get a part number off it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 6 16:09:26 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 16:09:26 -0600 Subject: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? Message-ID: <43E7C916.4070103@oldskool.org> Random woman emailed me that she has this thing and I don't know what to tell her. She uses the wording "monitor" but I can't tell if it really is a monitor or a laptop. She wrote: "The Monitor looks like a laptop with a handle on it. Sort of like a 60's 70's first battery operated radio. Very, very heavy. It is flat and opens like a laptop and has a screen and keyboard. I can send a pic to you if you like. The telephone don't go with it I figured out. LOL someone must have just stuck it in the big case for some reason. The booklet says it is an AT&T Color Monitor CRT 345i and it has Safari written on the top of it." What is this thing? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From vrs at msn.com Mon Feb 6 16:19:37 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:19:37 -0800 Subject: Intel 80286 "DCU" Multibus system References: <3.0.6.16.20060204225142.2dd787a6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><3.0.6.16.20060204225142.2dd787a6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><3.0.6.16.20060206104954.32e7e0fe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060206151801.32cfc050@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > Do you have floppies for an Intel system???? If so which system? I have > floppies for Tandy XENIX and IBM PC XENIX but not for the Intels. I have an > Intel that runs XENIX and I have't been able to get past the password on it > either. The floppies that I have are the XENIX installation floppies from Intel. I have the pilot units, as I was the team leader for the evaluation of that product. (Pilot units were the very first one made, which was sent to the evaluation group to verify that they were manufactured correctly. One time they weren't, and the poor sod that made them lost his job.) Vince From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 6 16:29:47 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:29:47 -0700 Subject: Telemechanics/AT&T keyboard? Message-ID: Anyone ever seen one of these? The auction listing says: Telemechanics Inc., American Tleephone and Telegraph Co. Part #40K101CAD -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 6 16:32:11 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:32:11 -0700 Subject: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Feb 2006 16:09:26 -0600. <43E7C916.4070103@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <43E7C916.4070103 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > What is this thing? Maybe an early luggable portable terminal? That might explain why the phone was in there. Ask her if it has two cup holders :-) (i.e. acoustic coupler). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 6 16:48:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 14:48:02 -0800 Subject: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? In-Reply-To: <43E7C916.4070103@oldskool.org> References: <43E7C916.4070103@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200602061448020939.6841B0AD@10.0.0.252> On 2/6/2006 at 4:09 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Random woman emailed me that she has this thing and I don't know what to >tell her. She uses the wording "monitor" but I can't tell if it really >is a monitor or a laptop. Well, the Safari was a laptop and there were several models, but I've never heard of a 345i. Maybe a 3151? At any rate, here's a photo of one: http://imagine41.com/catalog/images/at&tsafari3151laptop001.gif From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Feb 6 17:17:18 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 23:17:18 GMT Subject: best yardsale in a decade In-Reply-To: "best yardsale in a decade" (Feb 6, 12:33) References: <20060206173341.MZJS29637.ibm70aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <10602062317.ZM19781@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> On Feb 6 2006, 12:33, wrote: > There were a few incredible chips in pile that the foam really screwed up... check out: > > http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/chips1.jpg > > There was a ceramic C8080A with the pins completly eaten away , a Ceramic MOS 6532 that faired only a little better, a ceramic/traced AMI 6810, and a early plastic 6502 and 6530 among the more conventional stuff. Any recommendations on neutralizing/cleaning the gunk of the ceramics? The green icky stuff looks like verdigris. I'd just scrub it off with a toothbrush and warm water. If that doesn't shift it, dilute acid such as vinegar or lemon juice will, but rinse the ICs thoroughly afterwards if you do that. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Feb 6 17:30:55 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:30:55 -0500 Subject: Juki 6100 versus Juki 6000 In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20060206134542.0433c7b8@yahoo.com> References: <200602061017160545.6749C3CC@10.0.0.252> <7.0.1.0.2.20060206134542.0433c7b8@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200602061830.55939.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 06 February 2006 01:46 pm, Gene Ehrich wrote: > Can anyone tell me the difference between the Juki 6000 and the Juki > 6100 printers? > > I did a lot of googling but did not find the answer. I've never heard of a 6000 before, but the difference between the 6100 and the 6300 (which I've also run into) was the width of the carriage, "normal" vs. "wide". -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Feb 6 17:41:48 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 18:41:48 -0500 Subject: Bigboard II, odd laptop Message-ID: <200602061841.48738.rtellason@blazenet.net> Anybody out there familiar with the Bigboard II? I have one, and rather like some features of the thing. One of the features in the rom code is that it'll look at the second rom socket and try some sort of weird CRC algorithm on it and if that checks out transfer control to the chip. Problem is, I don't understand the code. Also, somewhere I have this 286-based Zenith "laptop", non-functional the last time I tried it. Anybody know if there's any service info out there on this thing? I used to be a ZDS service center way back when, but we stopped doing that when they moved all of the training to Chicago and required several trips a year plus _paying_ for the training to continue with it (more than we made working on their stuff), and so I never saw any service data on that sort of thing, though I do have some on their earlier stuff, and monitors, if anybody needs some. I do remember seeing one of those in operation one time, and it had a real pretty blue-lit screen. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Feb 6 18:27:53 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:27:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: best yardsale in a decade Message-ID: <200602070027.QAA00798@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi I think the corrosion is from sulfur in the foam. If so, I'd suspect it to be an acidic corrosion. After cleaning with something like vinegar, following with some baking soda might be a good idea before the final washing. This should help neutralize any remaining acid. Dwight >From: "Pete Turnbull" > >On Feb 6 2006, 12:33, wrote: > >> There were a few incredible chips in pile that the foam really >screwed up... check out: >> >> http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/dogas/chips1.jpg >> >> There was a ceramic C8080A with the pins completly eaten away , a >Ceramic MOS 6532 that faired only a little better, a ceramic/traced AMI >6810, and a early plastic 6502 and 6530 among the more conventional >stuff. Any recommendations on neutralizing/cleaning the gunk of the >ceramics? > >The green icky stuff looks like verdigris. I'd just scrub it off with >a toothbrush and warm water. If that doesn't shift it, dilute acid >such as vinegar or lemon juice will, but rinse the ICs thoroughly >afterwards if you do that. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 6 17:51:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 23:51:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Feb 5, 6 05:31:26 pm Message-ID: > Maybe the issue in question then isn't the tape, but that the drive is > out of alignment. When a floppy is out of alignment, it won't matter > if you put brand new disks in them, it won't work properly. Eh? If a floppy drive is out of alignment (this generally means 'radial alignment'), it will read its own disks. You can take a bulk-erased disk, format it, rite to it, and read it. What you can't do is use that disk in a correctly-aligned drive, or use disks from a correctly aligned drive in an incorrecetly aligned one. In fact, if you are repairing a floppy drive, you get it working on a blank disk first. That verifies that the drive is capable of working correctly. Only then do you put an alignment disk in and do the adjustments. If you put the alignment disk in from the start, there's a chance you'll ruin the alignment disk (maybe the write circuit is permanently enabled due to an electronic fault). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 6 17:54:40 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 23:54:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Powering up sleeping uVAX II In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060205194355.0bb08a18@localhost> from "Tom Peters" at Feb 5, 6 07:49:09 pm Message-ID: > > At 12:49 AM 2/6/2006 +0000, you wrote: > >Hi List, > > > >I have here a uVAX II in a ba23 box, most likely not powered up for 2 or= > 3 > >years. > >The innards are clean, no nasty smells, no other trace of prior problems. > >Even so, to minimise the risk of damage I'm going to disconnect all the = > 5v & > >12v leads, then attach some suitable dummy load(s), switch on and wait f= > or > >smoke. > > > >Does this seem an appropriate plan? Can anyone point me to pinouts for t= > he > >various supply leads from an H7864? > >Does anyone have any other recommendations/experience of going though th= > is > >process, and is there anything I've missed that I should have included > >above? > > All wise precautions. Many others recommend also using a variac to bring = > up=20 It is a very bad idea to 'run up' a swtich mode PSU (which this is) on a Variac. SMPSUs appear as conatant power loads, as the input voltage decreases, the current increases. Some supplies will blow their chopper transistors under such conditions. If you want to re-form the capacitors (and I don;t think it's necessary, I've never had problems with capacitors in computer power supplies), take them out of the circuit, and reform them using a bench supply and a resistor. One thing I would recoemnd is that you check all the fans are running. If not, either replace them or repair them (I do the latter...). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 6 18:22:28 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 00:22:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060206154740.121fc9ca@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Feb 6, 6 03:47:40 pm Message-ID: > > At 06:59 PM 2/5/06 +0000, Tony wrote: > >> big DC-600 type tapes used in the HP 9144, etc. They did use a different > >> tape in some earlier products but they were VERY different and immediately > >> recognizable. I have a couple of those drives but I've never seen a tape > >> for them. It was driven like an audio cassette tape via the hubs. > > > >If that's the tape I'm thinking of, it's used in the 9830, and I think > >also the 982. There was an external tape drive for these machines that I > >forget the number of (HP9865???) > > No, the drives and tapes used on the 9830, 9865, and the other 98x0 > machines is an earlier tape and it's different. They're more like audio > tapes and have an all plastic shell and the tape is driven via the hubs. > The tapes that I was talking about are similar to the HP-85 tapes but much > larger (DC-600 size) and use an aluminium base plate and are used in the HP I nkonw tham... But you said (in a bit you quoted above) 'It was driven like an audio cassette tape via the hubs.' That applies to the 9820, not to the DC600s... > 9142, 9144 and 7942 and similar drives. FWIW some of these larger tapes are > marked 16 track and others are 32 track but they both look alike. The tapes for the 9144 and 9145 are pre-formatted by the factory, it's a special HP format. IIRC the 9145 (32 track) can read but not write the 9144 (16 track) tapes. I only have 9144s. The 9142 uses plain DC600 tapes. They are not factory-formatted, and AFAIK the format is one of the QIC standards (QIC24?). > > > > > >The tapes are mechanically compatible with audio compact cassettes, but the > >tape is almost certainly different. These drives detect the clear leader > >by an optical sensor that reflects off the inside of the cassette shell > >where you'd expect the capstan/pinch roller to be, you need to use a > >light-coloured cassette. I've got a few Verbatim digital cassettes that > >work fine in my 9830. > > That's good to know. I have a 9830 and a 9865 but I've never tried to > use the tape drives in them. There's not a lot to go wrong with them. There are rubber O-ring tyres on the back of the drive spindles that could fail, but they should be easy to replace (I can tell you how to take the drive apart). The EOT sensor bulb coul fail too, but apart from that there's not a lot to go wrong. No rubber rollers, for example. Oh what the heck... Here are the dismantling instructions... ------------- Undo the 4 screws holding the mounting bracket to the drive. Ease the bracket (and PCB) away, unplug the 4 'plugs' (actually PCBs with pins) from the rear PCB. These plugs are marked 'Motor', 'Solenoid' (also carries the cassette-in and write-protect swtich signals), 'Photo' (EOT sensor) and 'Head' (to Head PCB). Undo the 3 screws holding the PCB to the bracket, evenly. The spacers and screws normally stay with the bracket. Remove the PCB. Undo the long through-bolt holding the front panel in place. Remove the nut, shakeproof washer, flat washer and spacer. Pull out the bolt (with spacer, flat washer and shakeproof washer at the head end). Remove the front panel and slide out the window (it often falls out!). Undo the nut and bolt holding the earth wire to the front panel, and remove the panel completely. Undo the 4 screws holding the motor rear support bracket to the side frames. Remove the central screw and the bracket. Slide out the motor assembly from the pivot post. Disconnect the 4 wires at the back of the head (push-on terminals), noting their positions. Undo the 2 screws holding the head PCB to the head plate assembly, Remove the PCB and the spacers. Undo the 3 screws holding the left side plate to the head plate assmebly. Remove the plate (unhook the cassette holding spring from inside the side frame of the head plate). Remove the 2 spacers from the pivot posts. Turn the drive over, free the right side plate (and complete head plate assembly) from the posts on the right hand side. Remove the spacers. To repair the optical EOT sensor, remove the 2 remaining screws on the PCB (one was removeed when the head PCB was removed). Free the P-clip. Remove the tape guide from the front of the sensor, and carefully remove the PCB. It contains an LDR and light bulb. Back on the main chassis, remove the screw holding the motor pivot post in place. Remove the post. Remove the leaf spring from the back of each cassette spindle pulley (one screw each). Remove the circlip from the front of the cassette spindle, slide off the plastic washer, then remove the spindle. Remove the second plastic washer from the face of the pulley. Remove the O-ring from the pulley Undo the 2 screws holding the brake plate in place. Free the spring, then lift off the brake plate and the 2 plastic spacers. Note that both of these must be fitted the right way up. --------------- -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 6 18:11:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 00:11:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Powering up sleeping uVAX II In-Reply-To: from "Tim Shoppa" at Feb 6, 6 08:26:30 am Message-ID: > > Pete asked: > > > I have here a uVAX II in a ba23 box, most likely not powered up for 2 or 3 > > years. > > > > The innards are clean, no nasty smells, no other trace of prior problems. > > Even so, to minimise the risk of damage I'm going to disconnect all the 5v & > > 12v leads, then attach some suitable dummy load(s), switch on and wait for > > smoke. > > > > Does this seem an appropriate plan? Can anyone point me to pinouts for the > > various supply leads from an H7864? > > Does anyone have any other recommendations/experience of going though this > > process, and is there anything I've missed that I should have included > > above? > > Just plug it in and turn it on. > > Unless the economics have drastically changed in the past 5 or 10 years, > a uVax II in a BA23 has a street value of $50 tops. If there's any irreplacable So? There are not an unlimited supply of MVIIs (it may seem like they're common now, but they won't always be). IMHO there is never an excuse not to same sensible precaustions like testing the PSU first. It doesn't take long, and it's good practice... As an aside at this point, I have read seveal books on clock and camera repair (2 of my other interests). Many of them make the same sort of point. Although you must practice on junk devices, you must not let yourself thing 'What the heck, this one is ruined anyway so I'll cut corners'. You must not learn bad habits. > components/assemblies/drives you may indeed want to remove them during > initial testing (in any event as you reconfigure the system you certainly want to > start with the simplest "has to work" configuration and then add on all the > unknowns.) > > Ignore anyone who tells you to bring this up on a Variac. You will be increasing > the chances of damage by doing so. Variac's are great for linear supplies in > reforming electrolytic caps, but they only make life worse in a switching > power supply because you're gonna cause all sorts of out-of-usual > conditions. See, a switching power supply has negative impedance as seen > from the "in" connector: if you decrease input voltage, > it will increase its current draw to keep power out constant. Outside of a > reasonable range (say +/- 30%) of input voltage the flyback pulse widths etc. will > be seriously out of whack too, also probably triggering a shutdown. Sure. > > My personal preference with linear supplies is to just plug it in and let any > bad electrolytics blow up :-). My preference on any computer power supply (linear or switcher) is to inspect it for obvious problems (physically leaking electrolytics, burnt components, etc), and it if looks OK, give it a dummy load and turn it on. > > The BA23's power supply (like most switching supplies) has more than adequate > shutdown-on-overvoltage-out circuitry. Which I would rather not depend on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 6 18:13:43 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 00:13:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060206151522.32cf049a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Feb 6, 6 03:15:22 pm Message-ID: > I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me if there was. But there are > lots of other systems that use the same drives and tapes such as the HP > 9845, 9835, 9825 calculator/computers along with LOTs of their test equipment. The drive in this terminal, is it closer to the HP85 one ,or the HP98x5 one? The dismantling of those 2 types of drive is quite different, does the terminal one come apart like one of them, or is it yet another type? -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 6 18:53:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 16:53:31 -0800 Subject: best yardsale in a decade In-Reply-To: <200602070027.QAA00798@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200602070027.QAA00798@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200602061653310534.68B48E48@10.0.0.252> On 2/6/2006 at 4:27 PM Dwight Elvey wrote: > I think the corrosion is from sulfur in the foam. >If so, I'd suspect it to be an acidic corrosion. >After cleaning with something like vinegar, following >with some baking soda might be a good idea before >the final washing. This should help neutralize any >remaining acid. Now, this is where I'd put some of Sridhar's TMAH to good use. Probably clean these things up in a jiffy. If you wanted high-quality restoration, you could always brush-plate the pins with gold. Cheers, Chuck From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 19:00:35 2006 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 01:00:35 +0000 Subject: Powering up sleeping uVAX II In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060205194355.0bb08a18@localhost> Message-ID: <11c909eb0602061700v428f1dcdk@mail.gmail.com> On 06/02/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > > It is a very bad idea to 'run up' a swtich mode PSU (which this is) on a > Variac. SMPSUs appear as conatant power loads, as the input voltage > decreases, the current increases. Some supplies will blow their chopper > transistors under such conditions. Having witnessed the effect of a sustained brownout (I think it went down to 50V for about 15 minutes) on a UPS-less machine room full of kit with 240V switched mode PSUs, I know that's a no-no. I think the survival rate was about 20%. -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From rcini at optonline.net Mon Feb 6 19:24:46 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 20:24:46 -0500 Subject: A good BASIC version for an IMSAI Message-ID: <003201c62b85$48b4efe0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I'm looking for recommendations for a good version of BASIC for my restored IMSAI. It's a Z80-based machine with 48k and a serial console. Ideally I'd like it to be ROMable. I have copies of the original TinyBASIC, Lawrence Livermore BASIC, Minol TinyBASIC, Denver BASIC, and a BASIC from Dave Dunfield. I haven't slogged through the source for each yet but I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Mon Feb 6 21:10:35 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 22:10:35 -0500 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: <43E4AE07.5050403@aol.com> References: <43E4AE07.5050403@aol.com> Message-ID: <63FB4B4E-2B9D-42DD-A239-68EC399889FC@xlisper.mv.com> Peter, Did you ever find someone to take the VaxStation 2000, monitor and keyboard? Thanks, David On Feb 4, 2006, at 8:37 AM, Peter Hufnagel wrote: > Found another box of TK50 tapes, so figured I'd ask again if anyone > is interested, contact me. > Also have a couple of external SCSI tk50 drives I could part with, > and a VaxStation2000, with a 19" vax monitor (monitor is probably > prohibitively expensive to ship, but anyone near CT who wants both, > and keyboard/mouse, etc, I'd give preference to parting with both > together). > > Also tons of 90M DAT tapes, if anyone is interested. > > Also for anyone near CT, I have a compaq 1600, dual 600mhz cpu's, > all 5 drive trays (one 4gig drive dead, but I think I have one to > replace it with), and I'll toss in a 3200-raid controller. Free to > anyone who wants to pick it up, or meet someplace. I'd consider > shipping it if someone wants to cover the shipping costs. > > And a pair of Mac IIsi's, and three MacSE/30's, all with NIC's (at > least one of the SE/30's has NetBSD on it). Free, just looking to > clean house (keeping my quadra 650). > And anyone who might be looking for TEK service manuals, the old > job was tossing several xerox-paper boxes of them out, I'll try to > make a list, but if you're looking feel free to ask. > Also have some plugins for the 7000 series O-scopes, probably take > a few bucks for those, but I can certainly come up with a list. > > -- Pete > From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 6 21:54:51 2006 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 19:54:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Affects of moisture (or lack thereof) on components In-Reply-To: <200602070043.k170hPYW088476@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060207035451.53821.qmail@web50515.mail.yahoo.com> > > Does anything bad happen to electronics that are stored in very dry > > conditions for long periods of time? Cities like this would be anything > > in Utah, Arizona, Nevada and Idaho (Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, Phoenix, > > Boise, Reno, etc.). Other than ESD which has already been mentioned, if the device relies on any rubber components (like capstan rollers) the dry heat might cause them to dry rot. Same for grommets. However, the USAF seals up its old planes and stores the in "the boneyard" at Davis-Montahn AFB in Tucson, AZ, so it can't be all bad. Bill __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From charlesmorris at direcway.com Mon Feb 6 22:03:53 2006 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (Charles) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 22:03:53 -0600 Subject: What moves the ribbon on a Teletype 43? Message-ID: I just got some new ribbons for my Teletype 43 and the print was (at first) nice and dark. But it soon started to fade. I watched the ribbon while printing and it didn't move! (There are two rollers on the left side of the typing unit which allow rotation only in one direction, and the ribbon is a continuous loop reinked as it passes through its cartridge, mounted at the right side). So obviously when *something* moves the ribbon, the ratchet action on the rollers prevents it from reversing direction, so there is net motion of the loop in one direction. It looks like the ribbon is intended to move during each carriage return. But what actually moves it? I don't see any source of friction other than where the ribbon passes over the printhead which is quite smooth. There is also very little tension on the ribbon (there is a spring mechanism that holds the rollers to the left). I don't have a service manual, just the basic operator's manual, and can't find one online. thanks for any assistance. -Charles From vp at cs.drexel.edu Mon Feb 6 22:51:54 2006 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 23:51:54 -0500 Subject: IPC manuals? Message-ID: <20060207045154.21FF6201316F@mail.cs.drexel.edu> > Does anyone if the HP IPC manuals are scanned and posted online > somewhere? I THOUGHT they were but can't find them. These are the manuals available from hpmuseum.net: HPJournal1985Oct-Integral-36pages.pdf http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=457 ConnectingPeripheralsToIntegralPC-00095-90124-76pages-Nov85.pdf http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=559 UsingYourIntegralPC-00095-90123-410pages-Oct85.pdf http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=916 82904ABusExpanderForIntegralInstallationManual-82904-90006-14pages-Jun85.pdf http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=925 82920AIntegralCurrentLoopInterfaceOwnersManual-82920-90001-50pages-Nov84.pdf http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=926 Integral-SchematicsByTonyDuell-55pages.pdf http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=999 IntegralPersonalComputer_AdvanceCopy_5954-1228_4pages_Nov84.pdf http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=1437 IntegralPersonalComputer_Brochure_5954-2411_18pages_Jan85.pdf http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=1438 82919AIntegralSerialInterfaceOwnersManual-82919-90001-78pages-Aug84.pdf http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=573 IntegratingHPBASICWithMS-DOSApplications-82301-90023-133pages-Jun89.pdf http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?catfile=169 IntegratedControllerDiscUtilities_ReferenceManual_5955-4355_107pages_Dec81.pdf http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=1150 Integral-HP-UX-TechnicalBASICReferenceManualVol1-82860-90002-456pages-Oct84.pdf http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?swfile=36 Integral-HP-UX-TechnicalBASICGettingStartedGuide-82860-90016-26pages-Nov85.pdf http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?swfile=15 Integral-HP-UXTechnicalBASICImplementationGuide-82860-90017-48pages-Nov85.pdf http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?swfile=16 Integral-HP-UX-TechnicalBASICReferenceManualVol2-82860-90003-88pages-Oct84.pdf http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?swfile=17 **vp From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Mon Feb 6 22:53:03 2006 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 20:53:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: NeXTstation TurboColor find Message-ID: <20060207045303.62359.qmail@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Today I received a NeXTstation TurboColor, with full doc, original boxes, NeXTstep 3.0-3.3, 17" Color Monitor, Laser Printer, Modem, set of NextWorld magazines, various books and doc and tons of software. It was shipped down from Canada and arrived in my office where a co-worker looked at it a moment, then looked at me and asked, "so when was that state of the art?" :) Now to catalog, setup and add to my site. David Williams http://www.trailingedge.com From Useddec at aol.com Mon Feb 6 23:46:36 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 00:46:36 EST Subject: MJD.no.bishop Message-ID: <242.67155cd.31198e3c@aol.com> Hi, I tried replying to your E-mail, and it was returned to me. I'm in Illinois, and have lots of DEC items. Feel free to send me a wish list. Thanks, Paul From james.rice at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 23:53:18 2006 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 23:53:18 -0600 Subject: NeXTstation TurboColor find In-Reply-To: <20060207045303.62359.qmail@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060207045303.62359.qmail@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43E835CE.9050509@gmail.com> nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com wrote: >Today I received a NeXTstation TurboColor, with full >doc, original boxes, NeXTstep 3.0-3.3, 17" Color >Monitor, Laser Printer, Modem, set of NextWorld >magazines, various books and doc and tons of software. > It was shipped down from Canada and arrived in my >office where a co-worker looked at it a moment, then >looked at me and asked, "so when was that state of the >art?" :) > >Now to catalog, setup and add to my site. > >David Williams >http://www.trailingedge.com > > > > My TurboColor was my first NeXT and is still one of my favorites. It never ceases to amaze me the number of so called IT workers who have never heard of NeXT. It's like if it's not M$, then it surely couldn't have been relevant to computing history. An off topic comment, I was assisting a customer's site today who happens to be running a version of our medical software that is serveral versions behind the upgrade curve. It so happens that the particular version they use must run on a Win9x platform. The motherboard in their P2 PeeCee died and was replaced by Geek Squad over the weekend with a new board and cpu. The so called "technician" they sent out had never seen a Win95 machine and had no clue how to install the drivers for hardware that plug-n-pray didn't detect. If it wasn't XP, he was totally lost. A glimpse of the future of computing! James -- http://www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Orphaned and Wayward Computers From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Feb 6 23:50:47 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 21:50:47 -0800 Subject: Original 11/74 front panel In-Reply-To: <200602061841.48738.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200602061841.48738.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <43E83537.3010901@mindspring.com> Found when I was going thru a box of DEC memorabilia ... an original 11/74 front panel (plexiglass only). You can tell it is from a 'true' 11/74 as it has front panel positions for the commercial instruction set microengine (CIS uADRS, CIS DECIMAL datapath, and CIS DESCRIPTOR datapath). Here's a pix: http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/1174.jpg (not the best quality, done on a scanner, not by camera). I need to figure out a way to get the LED positions to light up. Maybe I'll build a LED board and hook it up to my 11/34... No, it is not for sale. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Mon Feb 6 23:58:22 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 21:58:22 -0800 Subject: VAX 8250 available with some big disks In-Reply-To: <43E83537.3010901@mindspring.com> References: <200602061841.48738.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43E83537.3010901@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <43E836FE.6070304@mindspring.com> Seen on comp.os.vms: Anyone in the Ann Arbor, Michigan area (or beyond), that is interested in an old boat-anchor of a VAX? I have a VAX 8250 with a TU81, and six RA81?s. If you want it, you pick it up, no shipping, no exceptions unless you pay 100% of shipping and packaging. If there isn?t any interest between now and my next return visit to Saline, it?s being shipped to the VAX scrap heap in the sky. Barry Treahy, Jr Vice President/CIO Midwest Microwave, Inc. Emerson Network Power Connectivity Solutions E-mail: Barry.Treahy at EmersonNetworkPower.com Phone: 480/314-1320 Cell: 480/216-9568 Fax: 480/661-7028 From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Feb 7 00:34:49 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 22:34:49 -0800 Subject: KM11 replica Message-ID: <1139294089.8380.7.camel@linux.site> Hi, I *finally* managed to get a board assembled and tested. All of the documentation has been written and is available as a PDF on my website. I still have to get the documentation to the printer but they should be back this week. The KM11 replica is now available for order. Please consult my website (www.shiresoft.com) for ordering instructions. As I had stated previously when I did the prototype that the design was based upon Tony Duell's design. Here's a link to the original post to classiccmp (http://archive.netbsd.se/index.php?ml=cctech&a=2004-11&t=481814). -- TTFN - Guy From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Feb 7 00:57:09 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 07:57:09 +0100 Subject: Mini was KM11 replica References: <1139294089.8380.7.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <002701c62bb3$b75e2aa0$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Guy Sotomayor" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > The KM11 replica is now available for order. Please consult my website > (www.shiresoft.com) for ordering instructions. > It might interest you to know, that the nickname used for Morris/Austin Minis in Denmark, is "Mascot". When you tell someone that you have a Morris Mini, they either say "Huh??", or they think of the Morris 1000. Nico From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Feb 7 01:10:26 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 08:10:26 +0100 Subject: Original 11/74 front panel Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2685@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Damn, that's a cool find, even if it's in a box you already have! What do you think, Don, hHow many exist of this panel? - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don North > Sent: dinsdag 7 februari 2006 6:51 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Original 11/74 front panel > > Found when I was going thru a box of DEC memorabilia ... an original > 11/74 front panel (plexiglass only). You can tell it is from a 'true' > 11/74 as it has front panel positions for the commercial > instruction set microengine (CIS uADRS, CIS DECIMAL datapath, > and CIS DESCRIPTOR datapath). > > Here's a pix: http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/1174.jpg (not the best > quality, done on a scanner, not by camera). I need to figure > out a way to get the LED positions to light up. Maybe I'll > build a LED board and hook it up to my 11/34... > > No, it is not for sale. > > > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Sun Feb 5 04:53:40 2006 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (dr.emiel) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 11:53:40 +0100 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans References: Message-ID: <001701c62a42$6c70d5a0$0501a8c0@xp1800> The trick with old tapes (incl. HP-tapes) is : You have to heat them in the oven to about 55-60 degrees Celcius and leave them for about 2 to 3 hours. Then when the tape is yet warm carefully roll the drivewheel. After this there is a reasanable change that you can use the tapes. It is a old trick from the audio world. Otherwise you have to cut the bad part out and fix the tapes. Gr. Rik ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 10:13 PM Subject: Re: HP2648A tape drive capstans >> >> On 2/3/2006 at 1:35 PM Richard wrote: >> >> >I'd still like to hear about capstans though. Does anyone have >> >experiences to share in addition to the one online at the Computer >> >History Museum? >> >> Not to put too much of fine point on it, but are we talking about >> capstans >> or pinch rollers? I always thought that the capstan was the hard steel > > If it's the sort of drive I think it is (alas I don't have this HP > terminal, wish I did...), it works like a QIC tape drive. The motor > spindle has a rubber wheel on the end (this is normally called the > capstan), this turns a hard roller (normally called the drive puck) in > the catrridsge, which then moves the tape by an endless belt that runs > between the 2 spools of tape. We had a discussion some months back about > how this actually tensions the tape (I understood it in the end, it > depends on the fact hat the belt stretches slightly). > > The is no capstan/pinch roller like in an audio tape recorder [1]. The > roller that fails is the rubber coated one on the motor spindle, part of > the drive. I have worked on 2 HP tape drives like this. One is the type > used in the HP85 computer. It has a PCB fixed to the back with an HP > custom chip on it. The other is the one used in the HP9815, HP9825, > HP9845, etc computers. It has a PCB attached by wires with a few standard > ICs on it (a TTL decoder chip, 2 or 3 op-amps). > > [1] My HP9830 has a built-in tape drive that takes tapes that look like > audio compact cassettes. But there's no pinch roller and capstan, the > only drive is to the spools. And I amp pretty sure this is nothing like > the drive in said HP terminal. > > -tony > > > From recycler at swbell.net Sun Feb 5 14:33:51 2006 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2006 14:33:51 -0600 Subject: Mitron STD1600 9-track - manuals and cables and software found In-Reply-To: <43E59C42.8020904@Rikers.org> References: <43E51D59.2010305@swbell.net> <43E59C42.8020904@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <43E6612F.40500@swbell.net> Well therein lies the oddity. The Mitron has a serial port. it was meant to be used with a modem, and there are some programs to allow a PC to talk to a mainframe to accomplish the task through the PC serial ports. Attached is the zip if it is of any use. Tim Riker wrote: > I'm still trying to find my dos software for an ATC-16 to drive a pertec > interface Cypher M990. If your software happens to be for that card I'm > interested. ;-) I owned the DOS version, not the win* version. > > Patrick Jankowiak wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Whomever got the as-new Mitron STD1600 9-track from me, I found the >> books and cables. software is on the PC. >> >> Please contact me by phone to receive the items. >> >> Patrick Jankowiak >> 214-763-4764 > > > From peter.braroe at newsmachine.com Mon Feb 6 04:20:48 2006 From: peter.braroe at newsmachine.com (Peter Braroe) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 11:20:48 +0100 Subject: LMI CADR machine boot disk? Message-ID: <200602061032.k16AWFOj066865@keith.ezwind.net> Bob Shannon bshannon at tiac.net Hello! Hope this email adress works! I have two LMI CADR machines and I booted one as late as ten years ago 1995! I saw this post: http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2001-May/172026.html and you said you had spare parts? I may need some as I am going to try to get the machine to run again. I would be happy to try to create a boot disk image for you if mine are still good so you can boot yours too. do you have any tape drive interface for the CADR that could be used to get the data off it? Best regards, /Peter ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Peter A. Braroe VD, NewsMachine Blekingegatan 44 S-116 62 Stockholm Office: +46-(0)8-442 03 31 Mobile: +46-(0)708-750 991 From neil2 at localnet.com Mon Feb 6 16:36:02 2006 From: neil2 at localnet.com (Neil Conary) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 14:36:02 -0800 Subject: Apple RGB monitor Message-ID: <000601c62b6d$b9b95b80$b958ca42@pavilion> Mike I don't suppose you atill have the AppleColor RGB Monitor. If you should or could point me in any direction it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Much!! Neil From bill_mcdermith at mcdermith.net Mon Feb 6 17:13:44 2006 From: bill_mcdermith at mcdermith.net (Bill McDermith) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2006 16:13:44 -0700 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060206151522.32cf049a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <"06 Feb 2006 10:00:54." <3.0.6.16.20060206100054.32e7d0d8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20060206151522.32cf049a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43E7D828.2080104@mcdermith.net> Joe R. wrote: > At 09:40 AM 2/6/06 -0700, Richard wrote: > >> Was there ever any "software" made for the 2648A? >> > > I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me if there was. But there are > lots of other systems that use the same drives and tapes such as the HP > 9845, 9835, 9825 calculator/computers along with LOTs of their test equipment. > > Joe > At least internally there was a basic interpreter for the 2648A (the graphics terminal, right?) that ran from the tape drive. Don't know if it was sold as a product... Bill From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 6 18:21:48 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 16:21:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Texas Instruments Portable Professional Computer Message-ID: <20060207002148.89243.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> If W.Smith is still on this list, I'd appreciate it if he contacted me. > On Tue, 7 Jan 2003, John Clarke wrote: > > > Anyway, is there some way to find out what the value of my > Compaq is? > > Sure, I'll tell you: $5. > > :) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival Nadeau's book gives a range of $20 - $75, but I wouldn't give $20 for the hardware alone. Original documentation and software, on the other hand, is likely much harder to find and would be worth some extra $$$s. It's hard to quantify value if you have all the extras, which are often almost impossible to accumulate. I think most collectors know that documentation is far more difficult to find than machines. I have an IBM 5100, which is somewhat rare, but what is really rare is the full set of documentation I have, including the original sales invoice and factory build sheet. For example, I have a Texas Instruments Portable Professional Computer (actually I have three of them) which in terms of hardware, is not worth much ($15 to $40 according to Nadeau). But, I also have virtually every piece of software and documentation that ever went with it (all in those hideous orange TI boxes), as well as a big box full of development boards of every variety that I got from a retired TI guy that worked on the project in the early 80s. I also have stacks of preliminary production documentation and schematics from the same sorce. Now that's history -- and as they say in the Master Card commercials -- "priceless." By the way, one of my three TIPPCs has an upgraded 286-10 Soyo MB and is IBM compatible (and therefore won't run the bulk of the specialize TI software). Anyone ever see one of these before? -W __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ifinlay at tycoint.com Sun Feb 5 17:35:26 2006 From: ifinlay at tycoint.com (Ian Finlay) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2006 10:35:26 +1100 Subject: Glockenspiel C++ or CFRONT sources Message-ID: <200602052335.k15NZQo03902@fireryd.nsw.tycoint.com.au> Dear Ram, I saw your post: http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2005-July/047615.html I also need a Cfront Translator from C++ to C (preferably for MS-DOS or Windows). Company previously used a, now deceased Apollo workstation with Domain 2.1.0. But its not working any more, so have managed to move all but the C++ to C translation onto the Microsoft development platform. If you get any feedback I would appreciate it. Sincerely Ian Finlay Wormald Technology From jclang at notms.net Sun Feb 5 11:08:39 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2006 12:08:39 -0500 Subject: pro-350 dumpster dive Message-ID: <06020512083900.10347@bell> I've been hanging around the dumpster again.... I salvaged some DEC pro-350 parts. I don't have a 350, so they are available to anyone for the shipping cost. I'm not sure if the numbers are the actual part numbers, They are whatever I could find on the boards. 5415134 winchester disk controller 5415057 rx-50 controller 5415084 memory boards 128kb (quan. 2) ( not the c-bus boards) 5015487 pc350 memory 256kb (c-bus board) 5015137 ct100 video generator 5015145 ct100 color bit map joe lang From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 4 18:23:52 2006 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2006 18:23:52 -0600 Subject: Superset graphics supercomputer Message-ID: I used to play around with one of these. I am eager to find out any more information (or even find one for my collection!) We sold them and I became friends with the designer Ian Hirscholn. He later wrote an article in Dr. Dobbs about a version of his OS running on a pc, it was called PORT Randy _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee? Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 7 02:10:06 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 01:10:06 -0700 Subject: Stellar / Ardent / Stardent Message-ID: Anyone remember these visualization workstations from around 1990? Anyone got one? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cannings at earthlink.net Tue Feb 7 02:18:53 2006 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 00:18:53 -0800 Subject: Building electronic projects from 30-year-old articles (was Re: OldComputer Collecting vs Electronics Building) References: Message-ID: <001101c62bbf$23356e90$6401a8c0@hal9000> Spare Time Gizmos has a pretty neat COSMAC kit. It has BBU ( Battery Backed-Up ) 32K SRAM and the EPROM has an ASSEMBLER, EDITOR, Tiny BASIC, FORTH and " provisions " for CHIP-8. Plus this kit allows use of 1802s, 1804s and 1805s ( jumper selected ). For the lazy bastards ( like me ) you can download a " virtual " COSMAC ELF ( 84 K zip file ) from; http://incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r/computer_simulators.htm It even has graphics generated from a " virtual " 1861. And did I mention the price is right ( free ) ? Best regards, Steven Canning ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 11:39 AM Subject: Building electronic projects from 30-year-old articles (was Re: OldComputer Collecting vs Electronics Building) > On 2/3/06, Richard wrote: > > In article , > > Ethan Dicks writes: > > > Two years ago, I built a COSMAC Elf right out of the pages of the > > > 1977-1978 Popular Electronics articles, on perfboard... > > > > Is the Popular Electronis article scanned online? This sounds kinda > > cool! And a nice way to get a little experience without damaging > > anything hard to find. > > http://www.incolor.com/bill_r/elf/html/elf-1-33.htm > > I even used real HP displays (electrically identical to TIL-311s, but > in a different package) and 1822 (5101) 256x4 SRAMs. If you are > shooting for software compatibility without a slavish devotion to the > 1976 appearance, you can use a modern 32Kx8 SRAM and even add a latch > to access memory over 256 bytes (but toggling in that much data is > kinda tedious). > > You will find it hard to locate a genuine 1861, but Spare Time Gizmos > has a modern 1861 pin-compatible emulator (a shift register, a > counter, and two 22V10 GALs) that fits in the socket for a real 1861. > If you don't care about video, you can get a newer 1802 processor and > run the entire thing at 5MHz. > > For those that don't know, there's a reasonably active 1802 group on Yahoo... > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cosmacelf/ > > ... I'd recommend it if you want to play with the 1802. > > -ethan > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 7 02:08:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 01:08:30 -0700 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 06 Feb 2006 16:13:44 -0700. <43E7D828.2080104@mcdermith.net> Message-ID: In article <43E7D828.2080104 at mcdermith.net>, Bill McDermith writes: > At least internally there was a basic interpreter for the 2648A (the > graphics terminal, right?) Right, the graphics "terminal" -- its really more like a PC, but externally it looks like a terminal. Inside is a card cage, processor, memory, tape controller, etc. > that ran from the tape drive. Don't know if it was sold as a product... This would be the first I've heard of that; sounds like an internal hack and not a product as I can't find any mention of software products for the 2648A anywhere in web sites or HP docs. I don't suppose you have a tape? :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 7 05:38:34 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 11:38:34 +0000 Subject: Powering up sleeping uVAX II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E886BA.7040508@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > (and I don;t think it's necessary, > I've never had problems with capacitors in computer power supplies) ... except X1 / X2 mains filter ones, which die with alarming regularity (and always after the system's been running for a while and you *think* all is well!) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 7 05:40:18 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 11:40:18 +0000 Subject: NeXTstation TurboColor find In-Reply-To: <20060207045303.62359.qmail@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060207045303.62359.qmail@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43E88722.50900@yahoo.co.uk> nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com wrote: > Today I received a NeXTstation TurboColor, with full > doc, original boxes, NeXTstep 3.0-3.3, 17" Color > Monitor, Laser Printer, Modem, set of NextWorld > magazines, various books and doc and tons of software. Git :-) > It was shipped down from Canada and arrived in my > office where a co-worker looked at it a moment, then > looked at me and asked, "so when was that state of the > art?" :) That's interesting. NeXT hardware still looks externally as though it could be modern to me - the styling never looks dated like nearly all other vintage machines. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 7 05:44:03 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 11:44:03 +0000 Subject: VAX 8250 available with some big disks In-Reply-To: <43E836FE.6070304@mindspring.com> References: <200602061841.48738.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43E83537.3010901@mindspring.com> <43E836FE.6070304@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <43E88803.1060902@yahoo.co.uk> Don North wrote: > Seen on comp.os.vms: > > > Anyone in the Ann Arbor, Michigan area (or beyond), that is interested > in an old boat-anchor of a VAX? I have a VAX 8250 with a TU81, and six > RA81?s. Probably worth somebody saving the HDA's at least, assuming that nobody can be found to rescue the whole lot - they're the one bit that couldn't easily be fixed by a hobbyist... Best done *before* the whole lot gets hauled to the scrappy without anyone bothering to lock the drive heads! TU81 heads might be worth salvaging too. Hopefully someone can take the whole system though... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 7 05:45:35 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 11:45:35 +0000 Subject: Stellar / Ardent / Stardent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E8885F.6040403@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > Anyone remember these visualization workstations from around 1990? > > Anyone got one? :-) No - we seem to have gained a couple of their workstation monitors over the years, but for some reason have no other bits to go with them :-( If anyone knows of any systems in the UK, shout! cheers Jules From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue Feb 7 06:38:18 2006 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:38:18 +0100 Subject: VAX 8250 available with some big disks In-Reply-To: <43E836FE.6070304@mindspring.com> References: <200602061841.48738.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43E83537.3010901@mindspring.com> <43E836FE.6070304@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20060207123818.GP19232@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2006-02-06 21:58:22 -0800, Don North wrote: > Anyone in the Ann Arbor, Michigan area (or beyond), that is interested > in an old boat-anchor of a VAX? I have a VAX 8250 with a TU81, and six > RA81?s. If you want it, you pick it up, no shipping, no exceptions > unless you pay 100% of shipping and packaging. If there isn?t any > interest between now and my next return visit to Saline, it?s being > shipped to the VAX scrap heap in the sky. I might be interested in the card cage's contents, but i don't have a 8000, so I couldn't (yet) make use out of it. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From RMeenaks at olf.com Tue Feb 7 08:03:47 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 09:03:47 -0500 Subject: Glockenspiel C++ or CFRONT sources Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701271808@cpexchange.olf.com> Unfortunately, not. But there is an alternative which I havent tried. If you are willing to pay $900 or so, you can pick up the cfront sources from AT&T. Also, SUN has a GNU C++ to GNU C translator on their website which might help as well... Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian Finlay > Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 6:35 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Glockenspiel C++ or CFRONT sources > > > Dear Ram, > > > > I saw your post: > http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2005-July/047615.html I also need a Cfront Translator from C++ to C (preferably for MS-DOS or Windows). Company previously used a, now deceased Apollo workstation with Domain 2.1.0. But its not working any more, so have managed to move all but the C++ to C translation onto the Microsoft development platform. If you get any feedback I would appreciate it. Sincerely Ian Finlay Wormald Technology From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Feb 7 08:39:43 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 08:39:43 -0600 Subject: pro-350 dumpster dive In-Reply-To: <06020512083900.10347@bell> References: <06020512083900.10347@bell> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060207082010.0a753de8@mail> At 11:08 AM 2/5/2006, joseph c lang wrote: >I've been hanging around the dumpster again.... >I salvaged some DEC pro-350 parts. I've got to ask - what sort of dumpster has Pro 350 parts in it? - John From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 7 08:51:37 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 07:51:37 -0700 Subject: Stellar / Ardent / Stardent In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Feb 2006 11:45:35 +0000. <43E8885F.6040403@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <43E8885F.6040403 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > Richard wrote: > > Anyone remember these visualization workstations from around 1990? > > > > Anyone got one? :-) > > No - we seem to have gained a couple of their workstation monitors over the > years, but for some reason have no other bits to go with them :-( If anyone > knows of any systems in the UK, shout! I remember that they had a feature called a "Z-blit" that was useful for rendering large complex ball-and-stick molecular models. Essentially it was a 2D blt operation but also included a blt to the Z-buffer with a Z compare during the blt. So you could pre-render an awesome looking sphere into a color buffer and z buffer pair and then blt these all over the screen to put a sphere anywhere you wanted/needed. Now that I think about it, there must have been some sort of Z transformation done on the associated Z-buffer as well, or it wouldn't have worked well for complex scenes. I never got the engineering details on it, but I did see a demo and it was pretty impressive for the time. Nowadays you'd just brute force render everything. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From fryers at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 10:13:51 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 16:13:51 +0000 Subject: emulator In-Reply-To: <200602061814.KAA20660@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200602061814.KAA20660@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: Depending on what the controller was controlling, it may be easier to determine the set of requirements/control stratagy and recode from the start for the target platform. Unless the controller is highly specialised, whoever is responsible for running the final system is taking a lot of risk by using equipment that can not be replaced/repaired qucikly & easily. Suggest to the person responsible for the process being controlled that it could be wiser to replace the controller for a more modern unit where off the shelf spares are available. If you don't mind me asking, what is the function of the control unit, and who is the manufacturer? On 2/6/06, Dwight Elvey wrote: > Hi > Although, it would be nice to find someone with > an ICE for the V25, many in our group would be able to > help you with as little as an oscilloscope and a simple > disassembled listing from the EPROM. Using a digital > oscilloscope or a logic analyzer could speed things along. > There are a few members of our group in Germany that > would be able to help you out. The 186 is a relatively > well known processor. > Dwight > > > >From: "werner busch" > > > >Dear Sirs, > > > >we need Your help for analyzing a the software of a control unit. > >We are a German Company and the unit is not longer supported by developer. > >( company is down). > > > >Target is to analyze some parts of the software and make some little changes. > >( change 2 parameters dirct in software). > > > >The cpu on control unit is a NEC V25 / V25+ (80186 derivate, 84-pin PLCC ), > software is on eeprom 512 KByte. > > > >We want to trace the running program, analyze some parts, see registers etc. > > > >Is this possible with one of your systems ? > > > >Please tell us what we need to reach our target and what are the price for the > system we need. > > > > > >Kind Regards > > > >Busch-Automation > >Werner Busch Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Feb 7 12:15:56 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 19:15:56 +0100 Subject: Original 11/74 front panel In-Reply-To: <200602071145.k17BjI4n094881@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200602071145.k17BjI4n094881@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43E8E3DC.6030600@update.uu.se> Don North wrote: > Found when I was going thru a box of DEC memorabilia ... an original > 11/74 front panel (plexiglass only). You can tell it is from a 'true' > 11/74 as it has front panel positions for the commercial instruction set > microengine (CIS uADRS, CIS DECIMAL datapath, and CIS DESCRIPTOR datapath). > > Here's a pix: http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/1174.jpg (not the best > quality, done on a scanner, not by camera). I need to figure out a way > to get the LED positions to light up. Maybe I'll build a LED board and > hook it up to my 11/34... Very nice! However, a few things I've wondered about for a long time. This is obviously a panel for a corporate cabinet. I've also seen a picture of an alleged 11/74 that was in a corporate cabinet. However, the one picture I've seen in real life (as opposed to on the internet) of an 11/74, it was in full height 19" cabinets with the traditional maroon/red color scheme. Also, I am under the impression that a CIS was never completed. That would have required the KB11-E. The only 11/74 CPU I know was done was the KB11-Cm, which is a modified KB11-C (aka 11/70). This won't allow you to add a CIS option. No place nor wiring for it. Does anyone know *for sure* that the KB11-E was made, or might this front have been a prototype for a possible KB11-E, but in reality used just with a KB11-Cm? (Oh, and for those of you who care... login to mim.update.uu.se as guest/guest, and run RMD...) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Feb 7 13:05:26 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 11:05:26 -0800 Subject: Original 11/74 front panel In-Reply-To: <43E8E3DC.6030600@update.uu.se> References: <200602071145.k17BjI4n094881@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43E8E3DC.6030600@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <43E8EF76.2040507@mindspring.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > Don North wrote: >> Found when I was going thru a box of DEC memorabilia ... an original >> 11/74 front panel (plexiglass only). You can tell it is from a 'true' >> 11/74 as it has front panel positions for the commercial instruction >> set microengine (CIS uADRS, CIS DECIMAL datapath, and CIS DESCRIPTOR >> datapath). >> >> Here's a pix: http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/1174.jpg (not the best >> quality, done on a scanner, not by camera). I need to figure out a >> way to get the LED positions to light up. Maybe I'll build a LED >> board and hook it up to my 11/34... > > Very nice! > > However, a few things I've wondered about for a long time. > This is obviously a panel for a corporate cabinet. I've also seen a > picture of an alleged 11/74 that was in a corporate cabinet. > > However, the one picture I've seen in real life (as opposed to on the > internet) of an 11/74, it was in full height 19" cabinets with the > traditional maroon/red color scheme. The 11/74 was basically an 11/70 as the core CPU (a couple of CPU boards were actually updated to provide hooks for the CISP) and a revised backplane to handle the multi-card CIS 11/74 option. The 11/74 used the same physical chassis as the 11/70, so it could easily be mounted anywhere a classic 11/70 could be. > > Also, I am under the impression that a CIS was never completed. That > would have required the KB11-E. The only 11/74 CPU I know was done was > the KB11-Cm, which is a modified KB11-C (aka 11/70). This won't allow > you to add a CIS option. No place nor wiring for it. The multiprocessor version of the 11/70 was not *really* the 11/74. The 11/70MP modified the microcode for the ASRB instruction to define it as the atomic lock primitive (forcing a DATIP/DATOB cycle instead of a plain old DATI/DATOB). It also added the IIST (interprocessor interrupt and sanity timer) for interprocessor interrupt capability and a watchdog timer. The 11/74 and CISP were most certainly completed. I know first hand because I worked on them and was one of the three microcoders that wrote about 4K of 96b microcode to implement the PDP-11 commercial instruction set. The complete irony is the same day that engineering signed off the system to manufacturing, releasing all the hardware and PROM code to production, DEC product management killed it. They finally decided that high-end PDP-11s should be EOLed in favor of the newly released VAX-11/780 (this was in 1979 IIRC). The 11/44 CIS project started up shortly after the 11/74 CIS, but it had a much lower performance target. It actually did ship to customers. Part of the problem was that we did too good a job (IMHO anyway :-). PDP-11 Cobol performance (the Cobol compiler actually used CIS instructions) on an 11/74 was a factor two or better than that of the 11/780 running the same Cobol program. Marketing could not figure out how to push the new 11/780 into commercial accounts when the 11/74 was a clear performance winner. Of course the real benefit of the VAX was the 32b architecture, allowing programs larger than 128KB (I/D) without having to resort to overlays (disk and/or memory swapping). > > Does anyone know *for sure* that the KB11-E was made, or might this > front have been a prototype for a possible KB11-E, but in reality used > just with a KB11-Cm? Yes, the 11/74 KB11-E was finished by engineering (started in the Mill, moved to Tewksbury) but abandoned by DEC marketing. Some number of proto systems were around for a while being used internally within DEC but I don't believe the 11/74 was ever offered externally. Don North DEC 1975-1982 > > (Oh, and for those of you who care... login to mim.update.uu.se as > guest/guest, and run RMD...) > > Johnny > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Feb 7 13:13:06 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 11:13:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: pro-350 dumpster dive In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060207082010.0a753de8@mail> from "John Foust" at Feb 07, 2006 08:39:43 AM Message-ID: <200602071913.k17JD6ww016019@onyx.spiritone.com> > > At 11:08 AM 2/5/2006, joseph c lang wrote: > >I've been hanging around the dumpster again.... > >I salvaged some DEC pro-350 parts. > > I've got to ask - what sort of dumpster has Pro 350 parts in it? > > - John > The kind we'd all like to hang around :^) Zane From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 7 13:19:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 11:19:33 -0800 Subject: emulator In-Reply-To: References: <200602061814.KAA20660@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200602071119330299.6CA91E88@10.0.0.252> On 2/7/2006 at 4:13 PM Simon Fryer wrote: >If you don't mind me asking, what is the function of the control unit, >and who is the manufacturer? We run into this quite frenquently. As you probably realize, the big problem is analyzing what the peripheral hardware does and how one programs it--and all of the little program tweaks that were necessary to get it to work as advertised. 512K of program code is not a drop in the bucket. And it goes without stressing that checkout of any replacement involves hands-on access to hardware. They might be better off having the original design duplicated to maintain a stock of replacements--it might be cheaper that way. It's what you don't know that will kill you. That V25 may be hosting older 8080 code being run in emulation mode. In that case, replacement with, say, an 80188 may not be straightforward. FWIW, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 7 13:21:31 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 12:21:31 -0700 Subject: pro-350 dumpster dive In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Feb 2006 11:13:06 -0800. <200602071913.k17JD6ww016019@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: Speaking of dumpster diving, if you do some diving, what sort of companies do you target? I find its real hit-or-miss unless you know something about the kind of things the company is likely to toss. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From allain at panix.com Tue Feb 7 14:18:41 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 15:18:41 -0500 Subject: pro-350 dumpster dive References: Message-ID: <06a501c62c23$b9ac6b80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > Speaking of dumpster diving, if you do some diving, > what sort of companies do you target? Public Recycling centers for local cities. A recycling service provider who rolls off others' Dumpsters under contract. A dumpster on private property makes me nervous, as in illegal trespass nervous. John A. From john at guntersville.net Tue Feb 7 15:05:07 2006 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 15:05:07 -0600 Subject: pro-350 dumpster dive References: <06a501c62c23$b9ac6b80$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <43E90B83.3BAEE929@guntersville.net> John Allain wrote: > > > Speaking of dumpster diving, if you do some diving, > > what sort of companies do you target? > > Public Recycling centers for local cities. > A recycling service provider who rolls off others' > Dumpsters under contract. > > A dumpster on private property makes me nervous, > as in illegal trespass nervous. > > John A. Some places you can't legally go dumpster diving. Around here if it goes into a dumpster it belongs to the waste management company. You can't even legally retrieve an item from the dumpster that you are renting from them. I would have to tell them to remove their dumpster from my property now if not sooner if they made a row with me over something like that. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Feb 7 15:23:58 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:23:58 -0800 Subject: RSTS/E entry in wikipedia Message-ID: <9216644B-C403-4918-83CB-5FDA1D69A4F5@bitsavers.org> from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSTS/E "Mentec would later publicly grant a no-cost license to anyone for non-commercial hobby purpose use of the operating system software developed for the PDP-11, and as the result of the release (for non-commercial use) of a PDP-11 emulator for the IBM-PC, as well as image copies of disk drives of RSTS which exist on the Internet, it is possible for a hobbyist to run RSTS/E on a personal computer in software emulation as fast or faster than it originally ran on the real hardware." It's on the web, so it must be true! From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 15:48:18 2006 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 13:48:18 -0800 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: <43E7D828.2080104@mcdermith.net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90602071348h508dbd61ide07338198a2c047@mail.gmail.com> On 2/7/06, Richard wrote: > > This would be the first I've heard of that; sounds like an internal > hack and not a product as I can't find any mention of software > products for the 2648A anywhere in web sites or HP docs. I don't > suppose you have a tape? :-). I don't know whether basic interpreters exist for other 264x terminals, but there was a basic interpreter for the 2647F terminal. The 2647F used externally connected floppy drives instead of tape drives. I have a 2647F but unfortunately don't have a copy of the basic disks. Someone on the list (Eric?) mentioned having copies a long time ago and I didn't follow up and get copies at the time. Maybe one of the primary uses of 264x tape storage was for HP 1000 storage media. One of the standard boot proms for the HP 1000 will boot from 264x tape media. I have a set of HP 1000 diagnostic programs on 264x tape media. Unfortunately they are almost all unreadable. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Feb 7 16:12:04 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 22:12:04 +0000 Subject: Powering up sleeping uVAX II In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0602061700v428f1dcdk@mail.gmail.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060205194355.0bb08a18@localhost> <11c909eb0602061700v428f1dcdk@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43E91B34.8090501@gjcp.net> Pete Edwards wrote: > On 06/02/06, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> It is a very bad idea to 'run up' a swtich mode PSU (which this is) on a >> Variac. SMPSUs appear as conatant power loads, as the input voltage >> decreases, the current increases. Some supplies will blow their chopper >> transistors under such conditions. > > > Having witnessed the effect of a sustained brownout (I think it went down > to 50V for about 15 minutes) on a UPS-less machine room full of kit with > 240V switched mode PSUs, I know that's a no-no. I think the survival rate > was about 20%. While working doing tech support for retail EPOS equipment, I had a batch of calls all for the same supermarket, all for tills that wouldn't power on. About six, all logged at the same time. So - phone the customer. Asked the customer services manager (for it is them who deal with these things) if she could think of something that might have caused this. "Ah," she said, "yes. A JCB dug through a cable and blew up the substation that we run off." "Ok, then. Did they come up at all when power was restored?" "Yes - for a while anyway, maybe about two hours" "Right," I said, "What happened after two hours?" "Well the standby genny ran out of diesel..." That'll be six new power supplies, then. And billable, at that. Gordon. From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 17:42:03 2006 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 23:42:03 +0000 Subject: Powering up sleeping uVAX II In-Reply-To: <43E91B34.8090501@gjcp.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060205194355.0bb08a18@localhost> <11c909eb0602061700v428f1dcdk@mail.gmail.com> <43E91B34.8090501@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <11c909eb0602071542k598b2cd8x@mail.gmail.com> You'll all be pleased to hear it didn't explode or do any other wierd stuff. Pity whoever despatched it into retrocomputingland(tm) stripped out all the disks and controllers, but left a scsi connector on the bulkhead. I don't remember BA23s being so flipping noisy! -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 7 17:50:44 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 23:50:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: What moves the ribbon on a Teletype 43? In-Reply-To: from "Charles" at Feb 6, 6 10:03:53 pm Message-ID: > > I just got some new ribbons for my Teletype 43 and the print was > (at first) nice and dark. But it soon started to fade. I watched > the ribbon while printing and it didn't move! > > (There are two rollers on the left side of the typing unit which > allow rotation only in one direction, and the ribbon is a > continuous loop reinked as it passes through its cartridge, > mounted at the right side). So obviously when *something* moves > the ribbon, the ratchet action on the rollers prevents it from > reversing direction, so there is net motion of the loop in one > direction. It looks like the ribbon is intended to move during > each carriage return. > > But what actually moves it? I don't see any source of friction > other than where the ribbon passes over the printhead which is > quite smooth. There is also very little tension on the ribbon > (there is a spring mechanism that holds the rollers to the left). IIRC, the rollers on the carriage have one-way ratchets or clutches too. When the carriage moves one way (return?) the rollers on the carriage lock, the ones on the frame slip, so the ribbon is pulled along by the carrage. When the caraige moves the other way, the rollers on the carriage slip, the ones on the chassis lock, and the ribbon is held fixed. I asusme you have the printhead locked in the towards-platten postiion (lever on the side of the carriage). If not, the ribbon will be loose. > I don't have a service manual, just the basic operator's manual, > and can't find one online. I do have the KSR43 service manaul sometime. It's an odd book, it's got diagrams with arrowns labelled '1 : disconnect cable' '2 : Release clips' '3 : lift out power supply', things like that. Not like any other service manual I've worked from. But it includes the schematics, and even instructions on dismantling the print head, so it is quite useful. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 7 17:52:32 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 23:52:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: KM11 replica In-Reply-To: <1139294089.8380.7.camel@linux.site> from "Guy Sotomayor" at Feb 6, 6 10:34:49 pm Message-ID: > As I had stated previously when I did the prototype that the design was > based upon Tony Duell's design. Here's a link to the original post to > classiccmp > (http://archive.netbsd.se/index.php?ml=cctech&a=2004-11&t=481814). Thank you for the acknowledgement, needless to say I am happy with this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 7 18:03:28 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 00:03:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: pro-350 dumpster dive In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060207082010.0a753de8@mail> from "John Foust" at Feb 7, 6 08:39:43 am Message-ID: > > At 11:08 AM 2/5/2006, joseph c lang wrote: > >I've been hanging around the dumpster again.... > >I salvaged some DEC pro-350 parts. > > I've got to ask - what sort of dumpster has Pro 350 parts in it? When I was at university (both undergrad and grad student), I had permission to 'skip dive' (same thing as dumpster diving, I guess). Among the things I recovered were : An HP2100A minicomputer with 7900 disk (that was in poor condtiion as it landed on the front panel) and paper tape reader A couple of Facit 4070 punches A complete set of boards for a Versatec V80 printer/plotter The test boards for the BBC micro An AR88-LF (off-topic, but still a nice find for free) An HP9831 Many more PCBs, machines, bits that I've forgotten... -tony From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 7 18:11:18 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 18:11:18 -0600 Subject: AT&T Safari revisited Message-ID: <43E93726.6090100@oldskool.org> Here's pictures of the thing: http://photos.msn.com/Viewing/Album.aspx?PST=8nK2AN1B!1JkYezkeWQp2eofXeYxx02JbnOfFYjEfJSSsifM924aOHYGLTJ1*zhyOY5!ATp6IZR!Kb64dx5XIg%24%24 Owner wants to give it to a good home and lives in Levittown, PA 19055, contact nannyshere at msn.com if you'd like to grab it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 7 18:12:20 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 17:12:20 -0700 Subject: RSTS/E entry in wikipedia In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Feb 2006 13:23:58 -0800. <9216644B-C403-4918-83CB-5FDA1D69A4F5@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <9216644B-C403-4918-83CB-5FDA1D69A4F5 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > It's on the web, so it must be true! Which part isn't true? And its wikipedia, so you should have fixed any errors yourself! ;-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 7 18:14:08 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 17:14:08 -0700 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 07 Feb 2006 13:48:18 -0800. <1e1fc3e90602071348h508dbd61ide07338198a2c047@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <1e1fc3e90602071348h508dbd61ide07338198a2c047 at mail.gmail.com>, Glen Slick writes: > Maybe one of the primary uses of 264x tape storage was for HP 1000 > storage media. One of the standard boot proms for the HP 1000 will > boot from 264x tape media. I have a set of HP 1000 diagnostic > programs on 264x tape media. Unfortunately they are almost all > unreadable. Unreadable as in the media is physically damaged or unreadable as in the physical shape is OK but putting it through the drive doesn't yield anything useful? It wouldn't be the first time I've seen someone use a different read head with older tapes that were "unreadable" and squeeze out the bits with modern signal processing equipment and an analog signal from a compatible head. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Feb 7 19:51:01 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 17:51:01 -0800 Subject: RSTS/E entry in wikipedia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:12 PM -0700 2/7/06, Richard wrote: >In article <9216644B-C403-4918-83CB-5FDA1D69A4F5 at bitsavers.org>, > Al Kossow writes: > >> It's on the web, so it must be true! > >Which part isn't true? And its wikipedia, so you should have fixed >any errors yourself! ;-) Basically the whole thing looks to be untrue. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From lee at geekdot.com Tue Feb 7 20:26:13 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (lee at geekdot.com) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 03:26:13 +0100 (CET) Subject: Powering up sleeping uVAX II Message-ID: <2470.86.139.194.172.1139365573.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> >... except X1 / X2 mains filter ones, which die with alarming regularity > (and always after the system's been running for a while and you *think* > all is well!) http://www.themotionstore.com/leeedavison/6502/tangerine/goboom/index.html Indeed. Lee. From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Feb 7 21:00:11 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 21:00:11 -0600 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060207205704.0a6c4dc8@mail> At 06:14 PM 2/7/2006, Richard wrote: >It wouldn't be the first time I've seen someone use a different read >head with older tapes that were "unreadable" and squeeze out the bits >with modern signal processing equipment and an analog signal from a >compatible head. I look forward to the future universal head-head that'll be used to recover signals from tapes of all types. Do it all in software and it doesn't need to be real-time. Is there something physically impossible in this problem that I'm missing? Certainly old perpendicular N-track head is easy, and a helical scan flying head is tiny and fast, but aren't there many possible ways to skin this cat? - John From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Feb 8 00:47:53 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 22:47:53 -0800 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? In-Reply-To: References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <43E99419.9060401@mindspring.com> vrs wrote: > > I'm a little concerned about the input thresholds on the Am261S0, though. > The 1.8V Vil is actually in the allowable range for a UNIBUS high! OTOH, > the DS8838/8T38/MC3438 that were used in the RX emulator won't sense > voltages that low as a high, either! > > (I don't know why the bus spec Vih is so low; is it just because the DS8641 > was that way? Is it is really possible to have that much leakage on a real > world bus?) > > Looking at the bus specs, 105ua of leakage are allowed per bus load. I > calculate that over 9ma of load would be required to drag the bus down > to the Vih 0f 2.3V for the Am26S10. That works out to 87 bus loads!? > For the DS8838 (2.5V), I get 71 bus loads. Am I doing this right? If > so, I am guessing that the bus can't get that big, and the Am26S10 should > work fine? > So to shed more light on the Am26S10 receiver threshold I decided to do a little lab work, since I have both DS8641 and Am26S10 physical devices available. The Vbus vs Vrcvr input/output plots can be seen here: http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/26S10vs8641.jpg As can be seen in the plot, the classic DS8641 has a very well defined receiver switching threshold in the 1.35-1.5V range. The Am26S10 receiver threshold is in the 1.85-2.25V range, about 0.5-0.75V higher (not unexpected, this is what the data sheet indicates). So the Am26S10 parts are somewhere in between the DS8641 at 1.7V and the older DS8838/DEC380 parts at 2.5V. They should work on a reasonably sized UNIBUS system (not pushing loads and/or lengths) but may not be optimal for some configurations (Appendix B of the UNIBUS Troubleshooting Guide on bitsavers has some good background info on the threshold issue). From Glen.Heiberg at gijima.com Wed Feb 8 00:52:18 2006 From: Glen.Heiberg at gijima.com (Glen Heiberg) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 08:52:18 +0200 Subject: HP150-II Message-ID: <831434B713AA43429AF3F3EE801F38B201D9D3@rst-exc06.za.astgroup.com> Hello list, A couple of questions on the HP150-II... 1) Just how rare are these machines? www.hpmuseum.net rates the HP150-II with a "rarity factor" of 2/10 (where 10 is extremely rare). Is this about correct? I know the original HP150 was quite widely used in HP shops, but I've seen only 2 HP150-II's here in South Africa. I've got one, and the other was used as a console on an HP3000 series 70. 2) I've already had most of the software available that hpmuseum.net offers for the HP150; however, anyone got Windows (was it v 1.03?) for this box? Cheers Glen. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Feb 8 01:16:17 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2006 23:16:17 -0800 Subject: Original 11/74 front panel In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2685@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF2685@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <43E99AC1.4090103@mindspring.com> Well, I knew I still had it (somewhere!) so it was not like I found it at someone's garage sale (I worked on the development of the 11/74 CIS back in the late 70s while at DEC). But it was just temporarily 'misplaced'. As to how many of these exist, I would hazard to guess very few. The 11/74 was cancelled just after the design was completed ( a great product management strategy :-) ) but a number of proto/preproduction systems had been shipped to internal DEC sites (Maynard Mill and Spitbrook Road IIRC). There were probably no more that a dozen or so of these front panels produced (I'm guessing here) as the plan was also to move to the 'electronic console' for remote diagnostic capability and get rid of the manual lights and switches (an EMI nightmare!) in favor of a serial console interface. So how many of these panels exist is hard to say. I know only of one. Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Damn, that's a cool find, even if it's in a box you already have! > What do you think, Don, how many exist of this panel? > > - Henk, PA8PDP. > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don North >> Sent: dinsdag 7 februari 2006 6:51 >> To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Original 11/74 front panel >> >> Found when I was going thru a box of DEC memorabilia ... an original >> 11/74 front panel (plexiglass only). You can tell it is from a 'true' >> 11/74 as it has front panel positions for the commercial >> instruction set microengine (CIS uADRS, CIS DECIMAL datapath, >> and CIS DESCRIPTOR datapath). >> >> Here's a pix: http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/1174.jpg (not the best >> quality, done on a scanner, not by camera). I need to figure >> out a way to get the LED positions to light up. Maybe I'll >> build a LED board and hook it up to my 11/34... >> >> No, it is not for sale. >> >> >> From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 04:36:12 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 10:36:12 +0000 Subject: VAX 8250 available with some big disks In-Reply-To: <20060207123818.GP19232@lug-owl.de> References: <200602061841.48738.rtellason@blazenet.net> <43E83537.3010901@mindspring.com> <43E836FE.6070304@mindspring.com> <20060207123818.GP19232@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: On 2/7/06, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > I might be interested in the card cage's contents, but i don't have a > 8000, so I couldn't (yet) make use out of it. I would be interested in the cards, but not enough to organize that heavy of a haul right now (I have a complete 8300 and several RA81s as it is). It'd be a fun box to whomever goes and gets it. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Feb 8 05:26:27 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 11:26:27 +0000 Subject: pro-350 dumpster dive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E9D563.90009@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> At 11:08 AM 2/5/2006, joseph c lang wrote: >>> I've been hanging around the dumpster again.... >>> I salvaged some DEC pro-350 parts. >> I've got to ask - what sort of dumpster has Pro 350 parts in it? > > When I was at university (both undergrad and grad student), I had > permission to 'skip dive' (same thing as dumpster diving, I guess). Among > the things I recovered were : > > An HP2100A minicomputer with 7900 disk (that was in poor condtiion as it > landed on the front panel) and paper tape reader Heh. Apparently the Meiko CS1 transputer machine that I used to use at Kent uni ended up in the skip (I think it was running at about 140 processors when I was there). The story goes that some students rescued it and it went to the Science Museum (and there is something on their asset list that *could* be that machine). I need to make enquiries and find out how complete it is - hopefully it's all there *and* all the docs etc. were saved too. When I was at Kent though most of the surplus equipment was put out in Computing for people to pick over prior to it going in the skip - needless to say, the computing staff tended to take any workstations / minis home with them before us mere mortals even saw it :) > The test boards for the BBC micro Those are not easy to find. Far as I know they only ever went to service centres, so there can't have been that many built. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Feb 8 05:29:18 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 11:29:18 +0000 Subject: RSTS/E entry in wikipedia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43E9D60E.6000401@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > In article <9216644B-C403-4918-83CB-5FDA1D69A4F5 at bitsavers.org>, > Al Kossow writes: > >> It's on the web, so it must be true! > > Which part isn't true? And its wikipedia, so you should have fixed > any errors yourself! ;-) I've always wondered how they resolve 'fights' on there, when you have two people with conflicting views about what the correct answer to something is. Surely it just descends into a usenet-style flame war? From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 05:35:26 2006 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 06:35:26 -0500 Subject: RSTS/E entry in wikipedia In-Reply-To: <43E9D60E.6000401@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: There is the 'talk' page, and 'contested' status for the pages until the fight's resolved. On 2/8/06 6:29 AM, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > Richard wrote: >> In article <9216644B-C403-4918-83CB-5FDA1D69A4F5 at bitsavers.org>, >> Al Kossow writes: >> >>> It's on the web, so it must be true! >> >> Which part isn't true? And its wikipedia, so you should have fixed >> any errors yourself! ;-) > > I've always wondered how they resolve 'fights' on there, when you have two > people with conflicting views about what the correct answer to something is. > Surely it just descends into a usenet-style flame war? > > > From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Wed Feb 8 09:14:03 2006 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 10:14:03 -0500 Subject: source of manuals for terminals, test equipment Message-ID: I just ordered a set of manuals from this firm the other day. $25 per manual per week (from the date of receipt) for manuals that they have only one of. I don't know what the cost to purchase one is. Very professionally run operation in my opinion. Quality of the manuals seems to vary from originals to copies (that in my case were missing pages). I got one original and one copy to work with. If you have nowhere to turn for a rare equipment manual, this place is a good option. I have no connection to them other than being a satisfied customer. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 11:40 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: source of manuals for terminals, test equipment Stumbled across this today, maybe it will come in handy for someone: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From vrs at msn.com Wed Feb 8 09:23:02 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 07:23:02 -0800 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43E6B9BC.8030900@mindspring.com> <43E99419.9060401@mindspring.com> Message-ID: > So to shed more light on the Am26S10 receiver threshold I decided to do > a little lab work, since I have both DS8641 and Am26S10 physical devices > available. The Vbus vs Vrcvr input/output plots can be seen here: > > http://www.ak6dn.com/stuff/26S10vs8641.jpg Nice :-)! > As can be seen in the plot, the classic DS8641 has a very well defined > receiver switching threshold in the 1.35-1.5V range. The Am26S10 > receiver threshold is in the 1.85-2.25V range, about 0.5-0.75V higher > (not unexpected, this is what the data sheet indicates). > > So the Am26S10 parts are somewhere in between the DS8641 at 1.7V and the > older DS8838/DEC380 parts at 2.5V. They should work on a reasonably > sized UNIBUS system (not pushing loads and/or lengths) but may not be > optimal for some configurations (Appendix B of the UNIBUS > Troubleshooting Guide on bitsavers has some good background info on the > threshold issue). Agreed. Among the off-the-shelf interface parts, I couldn't find anything better. (Wish the 75als057 had higher voltage tolerances!) Vince From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 8 10:09:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 09:09:43 -0700 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 08 Feb 2006 07:23:02 -0800. <003b01c62cc3$8dce7300$6700a8c0@vrs> Message-ID: So... suppose for a moment that there's no viable commercially available part for making a bus transceiver with the proper specifications. Do any of us have enough Q-smarts to make a bus transceiver from discrete transistors? (I don't.) Do any of us have enough IC layout smarts to design a transceiver SSI chip from raw transistor layouts on an IC? (I don't.) I'm just wondering about what happens when the current candidate for substitution also becomes unavailable... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From vrs at msn.com Wed Feb 8 10:31:55 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 08:31:55 -0800 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibuscard? References: Message-ID: > So... suppose for a moment that there's no viable commercially > available part for making a bus transceiver with the proper > specifications. > > Do any of us have enough Q-smarts to make a bus transceiver from > discrete transistors? (I don't.) > > Do any of us have enough IC layout smarts to design a transceiver SSI > chip from raw transistor layouts on an IC? (I don't.) Me either. > I'm just wondering about what happens when the current candidate for > substitution also becomes unavailable... I do think I could make a Q-bus receiver from a linear IC, like an "ultra-fast" comparator, pretty easily. Vince From fernande at internet1.net Wed Feb 8 11:11:54 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 12:11:54 -0500 Subject: RS/6000 7012 Powerstation front panel question Message-ID: <43EA265A.7010800@internet1.net> Hey guys, I'm trying to build one nice 7012-370 with the help of a 320H, since the case of the 370 has several cracks in it. How do the yellow reset switches come apart from the front panel? I want to be able to thoroughly clean/scrub the panel, but really want to remove that switch first! I don't have the lock out yet, but I think once I get a decent set of snap ring pliers I'll be all set, with that. Thanks! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 8 11:13:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 09:13:51 -0800 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibuscard? In-Reply-To: <006501c62ccd$2cdc7100$6700a8c0@vrs> References: <006501c62ccd$2cdc7100$6700a8c0@vrs> Message-ID: <200602080913510393.715C60E8@10.0.0.252> On 2/8/2006 at 8:31 AM vrs wrote: >> I'm just wondering about what happens when the current candidate for >> substitution also becomes unavailable... > >I do think I could make a Q-bus receiver from a linear IC, like an >"ultra-fast" comparator, pretty easily. Not being part of this discussion, I wondered why that approach hadn't been considered, given the flexibility it affords. How fast do you need the part to be? 20-25 nsec isn't considered to be "ultra fast" nowadays. Cheers, Chuck From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Feb 8 12:02:48 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 10:02:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibuscard? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, vrs wrote: >> So... suppose for a moment that there's no viable commercially >> available part for making a bus transceiver with the proper >> specifications. >> >> Do any of us have enough Q-smarts to make a bus transceiver from >> discrete transistors? (I don't.) >> >> Do any of us have enough IC layout smarts to design a transceiver SSI >> chip from raw transistor layouts on an IC? (I don't.) > > Me either. > >> I'm just wondering about what happens when the current candidate for >> substitution also becomes unavailable... > > I do think I could make a Q-bus receiver from a linear IC, like an > "ultra-fast" comparator, pretty easily. > > Vince > If cost was not an object, something like the LTC1520 would be probably be OK (Quad 18 ns 5V powered comparator) but its >$5.00 each. Maybe some of the faster RS-485 receivers would do also... Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Feb 8 12:13:32 2006 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 12:13:32 -0600 Subject: DX10 Documentation Message-ID: <20060208181332.GA9500@RawFedDogs.net> Does anyone know where one can find DX10 documentation in addition to what's available on BitSavers? I'm new to the DX10 world but thanks to David Pitts' sim990 simulator I've been checking out DX10. I'd especially like to have docs on DX10 COBOL, TIFORMS, and/or TPL, as those packages appear to be available for sim990 from Dave's web site. Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX From vrs at msn.com Wed Feb 8 12:13:18 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 10:13:18 -0800 Subject: UNIBUS transceiver was RE: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibuscard? References: <006501c62ccd$2cdc7100$6700a8c0@vrs> <200602080913510393.715C60E8@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > >I do think I could make a Q-bus receiver from a linear IC, like an > >"ultra-fast" comparator, pretty easily. > > Not being part of this discussion, I wondered why that approach hadn't been > considered, given the flexibility it affords. How fast do you need the > part to be? 20-25 nsec isn't considered to be "ultra fast" nowadays. When I looked into it, I didn't find a very nice combination of price, speed, and pin count. I think the ideal part would be a quad comparator, with 10-20ns propagation delays, 200mV threshold, and rail-rail inputs. If you know of inexpensive part like that, I could probably figure out how to use it :-). (Someone with some expertise using linear chips would be better suited to that task, though.) Vince "Ultra-fast" seemed to be the marketing term that was being used for comparators that switched at these speeds, in the datasheets I was reading. From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Feb 8 12:24:29 2006 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 13:24:29 -0500 Subject: Original 11/74 front panel Message-ID: Don North wrote > So how many of these panels exist is hard to say. I know only of one. Two more can be seen at http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/1174Xopen.jpg So that makes three :-). Tim. From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 12:50:21 2006 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 10:50:21 -0800 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: <1e1fc3e90602071348h508dbd61ide07338198a2c047@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90602081050y7696c1a8v36f494004a6a5d3a@mail.gmail.com> On 2/7/06, Richard wrote: > Unreadable as in the media is physically damaged or unreadable as in > the physical shape is OK but putting it through the drive doesn't > yield anything useful? > Unreadable as in the common problem with this type of media where the oxide has been shedded from the tape in a few spots. I'm not sure how many tapes there are where I know this has happened. I might have just not bothered looking at the other tapes and assumed they would all have the same problem. Maybe I'll look into the 'baking" suggestions and see if that helps with some of the tapes that have not yet been damaged. From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Feb 8 13:05:59 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 13:05:59 -0600 Subject: Original 11/74 front panel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060208130505.0247bcf8@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 01:24 PM 2/8/2006 -0500, you wrote: >Don North wrote > > So how many of these panels exist is hard to say. I know only of one. > >Two more can be seen at > > http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/1174Xopen.jpg > >So that makes three :-). > >Tim. Wow Tim, what can you tell us about the machine in that picture? Thanks for sharing! --tom From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Feb 8 13:21:15 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe (FireflyST)) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 13:21:15 -0600 (GMT-06:00) Subject: Original 11/74 front panel Message-ID: <17379452.1139426475782.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Okay, what I immediately noticed is that these machines say "MP" and Don's panel doesn't. Were there non-multiprocessor 11/74s? If so, what would have been the benefits over 11/70s? -----Original Message----- >From: Tim Shoppa >Sent: Feb 8, 2006 12:24 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Original 11/74 front panel > >Don North wrote >> So how many of these panels exist is hard to say. I know only of one. > >Two more can be seen at > > http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/1174Xopen.jpg > >So that makes three :-). > >Tim. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 8 14:32:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 13:32:44 -0700 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 08 Feb 2006 10:50:21 -0800. <1e1fc3e90602081050y7696c1a8v36f494004a6a5d3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <1e1fc3e90602081050y7696c1a8v36f494004a6a5d3a at mail.gmail.com>, Glen Slick writes: > Maybe I'll look into the 'baking" suggestions and see if that helps > with some of the tapes that have not yet been damaged. The readtapes.com web site had a page describing how they coped with shedding media. However, that web site appears to be dead now :-(. Anyone know the story with readtapes.com? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Feb 8 14:54:58 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 12:54:58 -0800 Subject: Original 11/74 front panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43EA5AA2.7010709@mindspring.com> Tim's '11/74MP' panels are slightly different; I suspect they are really 11/70MP systems that do not support the CIS option. You can tell that because the lower selector switch on the right (for the DATA lights) is only 4 position instead of 8 position. Of course these are (or were? do they still exist, or is this just a picture?) real systems, so that counts for a bit :-) Tim Shoppa wrote: > Don North wrote > >> So how many of these panels exist is hard to say. I know only of one. >> > > Two more can be seen at > > http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/1174Xopen.jpg > > So that makes three :-). > > Tim. > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 8 15:00:04 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 13:00:04 -0800 Subject: 11/74 panel Message-ID: There is a picture of one on page 46 of the RSTS Professional v4n4 (Aug 82) taken before an internal DECUS meeting. I'm pretty sure there is a plex at CHM as well. They have a collection of several dozen unusual DEC front panel plastics, including one for a 32 bit machine that looks like it would be for a 360 architecture. No one has ever been able to identify what THAT was for. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 15:10:06 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 13:10:06 -0800 Subject: Multibus 1 386.387 wi 8 megs on epay. Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8761090577 Not my sale but I thought of interest to those Multibus one collectoors / users out there. One of the last Multibus one boards.made. It is a 386 with the 387 Math coprocessor and 8 megs of ram. Looks like no eproms. The seller doesn't know what he has (there is no IDE, those are iSBX headers) and the current buyer is a multibus dealer. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Feb 8 15:33:53 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 15:33:53 -0600 Subject: 11/74 panel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060208153301.04374548@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 01:00 PM 2/8/2006 -0800, you wrote: >There is a picture of one on page 46 of the RSTS Professional >v4n4 (Aug 82) taken before an internal DECUS meeting. > >I'm pretty sure there is a plex at CHM as well. They have a >collection of several dozen unusual DEC front panel plastics, >including one for a 32 bit machine that looks like it would >be for a 360 architecture. > >No one has ever been able to identify what THAT was for. Are there plans to put more of those sorts of things on display at CHM? --tom From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Feb 8 15:41:16 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 21:41:16 +0000 Subject: Multibus 1 386.387 wi 8 megs on epay. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43EA657C.9050404@yahoo.co.uk> Paxton Hoag wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8761090577 (for once someone posting a URL that isn't a billion characters long - well done :-) > Looks like no eproms. Agreed. If it's anything like this '286 board in the system I've been looking at then it should at least ship with a monitor ROM. Doubtless someone out there has a board like this and can supply one, though. > there is no IDE, those are iSBX headers) Is there such thing as a Multibus IDE adapter? I've only ever seen SCSI/ST412/SMD before. cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Feb 8 16:05:46 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 14:05:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Multibus 1 386.387 wi 8 megs on epay. Message-ID: <200602082205.OAA05833@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" > >Paxton Hoag wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8761090577 > >(for once someone posting a URL that isn't a billion characters long - well >done :-) > >> Looks like no eproms. > >Agreed. If it's anything like this '286 board in the system I've been looking >at then it should at least ship with a monitor ROM. Doubtless someone out >there has a board like this and can supply one, though. > >> there is no IDE, those are iSBX headers) > >Is there such thing as a Multibus IDE adapter? I've only ever seen >SCSI/ST412/SMD before. Hi I've seen iSBX IDE adapters someplace. I'm sure a search on the web will find one someplace. If the board takes iSBX it is a done deal. Dwight > >cheers > >Jules > From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Feb 8 20:13:16 2006 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 18:13:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: <200602082205.OAA05833@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: A lawyer asked me if I had any devices made before 1997 that used RGB LEDs. I know that RGB LEDs have been around since at least 1991, but I don't have anything to offer them. If you have a device that uses a mux and PWM with the LEDs, that would apparently please them very much. I'm sure there will be a bounty involved, but I haven't been given specifics. Cheers, Doug From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 8 17:54:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 23:54:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150-II In-Reply-To: <831434B713AA43429AF3F3EE801F38B201D9D3@rst-exc06.za.astgroup.com> from "Glen Heiberg" at Feb 8, 6 08:52:18 am Message-ID: > > Hello list, > > A couple of questions on the HP150-II... > > 1) Just how rare are these machines? www.hpmuseum.net rates the HP150-II > with a "rarity factor" of 2/10 (where 10 is extremely rare). Is this > about correct? I know the original HP150 was quite widely used in HP > shops, but I've seen only 2 HP150-II's here in South Africa. I've got > one, and the other was used as a console on an HP3000 series 70. Rarity does depend on the country in my experience. For examle the BBC micro is extremely common in the UK, less so in the States. FWIW, I have an HP150-II with most of the mnauls (including the techref with the suplement for the -II model) and a fair amount of software. > > 2) I've already had most of the software available that hpmuseum.net > offers for the HP150; however, anyone got Windows (was it v 1.03?) for > this box? I am ashamed to admit that I think I haev it somewhere. Be warned it's painful to use (even worse than later versions of LuseDoze on PCs in some respsects...) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 8 18:41:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 16:41:04 -0800 Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602081641040299.72F5D0DB@10.0.0.252> I'd send him to an LED collector, like this guy: http://ledmuseum.home.att.net/ledleft.htm Cheers, Chuck On 2/8/2006 at 6:13 PM Doug Salot wrote: >A lawyer asked me if I had any devices made before 1997 that used RGB >LEDs. I know that RGB LEDs have been around since at least 1991, but I >don't have anything to offer them. If you have a device that uses a mux >and PWM with the LEDs, that would apparently please them very much. > >I'm sure there will be a bounty involved, but I haven't been given >specifics. > >Cheers, >Doug From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed Feb 8 19:00:50 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 02:00:50 +0100 Subject: 11/74 panel In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20060208153301.04374548@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20060208153301.04374548@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <1139446850.16238.53.camel@fortran.babel> On Wed, 2006-02-08 at 15:33 -0600, Tom Uban wrote: > At 01:00 PM 2/8/2006 -0800, you wrote: > > >There is a picture of one on page 46 of the RSTS Professional > >v4n4 (Aug 82) taken before an internal DECUS meeting. > > > >I'm pretty sure there is a plex at CHM as well. They have a > >collection of several dozen unusual DEC front panel plastics, > >including one for a 32 bit machine that looks like it would > >be for a 360 architecture. > > > >No one has ever been able to identify what THAT was for. > > Are there plans to put more of those sorts of things on display at CHM? Or maybe some pictures online? -toresbe :) From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Feb 8 19:15:09 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 17:15:09 -0800 Subject: sad ebay listing Message-ID: <43EA979D.3060006@msm.umr.edu> I saw a calculator listing just now that said "turned it on, it glowed a minute, now it only glows green on the screen" "I'm not going to try to fix it"... THANK YOU. I'm not listing numbers so I don't get sued, but it isn't hard to find. Jim From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Feb 8 19:47:40 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 19:47:40 -0600 Subject: RS/6000 7012 Powerstation front panel question Message-ID: On metal cased (7030 and later 7012s) RS6ks the yellow button is push-on to a switch that screws into the front panel. These are easy, just push the button off with two prodding devices (straightened paper clips, old dental picks, small cocktail umbrellas, etc.) As this is completely useless to you, I naturally put it in first. Older RS6ks are the same setup it appears, but you need to contrive a small hook (again, I commend old dental picks to your attention) that will hook under the rim about 1/2" below the surface of the button. Use two for a balanced pull. Have fun, and long live the classic 6K! P.S. - does anyone here have an idea why I.B.M. used Medeco locks on the system unit, when plenty of mischief can be made anyway? Fortunately, both mine came with keys. From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Feb 8 20:25:50 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 21:25:50 -0500 Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Feb 2006 18:13:16 PST." Message-ID: <200602090225.k192PoBb024590@mwave.heeltoe.com> Doug Salot wrote: >A lawyer asked me if I had any devices made before 1997 that used RGB >LEDs. I know that RGB LEDs have been around since at least 1991, but I >don't have anything to offer them. If you have a device that uses a mux >and PWM with the LEDs, that would apparently please them very much. I remember costing blue leds for a front panel sometime around 1991. They were hundreds of dollars (I think out purchasing person spit out here coffe when she got the info :-) we went with red and green :-) -brad From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 8 20:30:49 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 18:30:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: <200602090225.k192PoBb024590@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200602090225.k192PoBb024590@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <20060208182846.J63431@shell.lmi.net> > Doug Salot wrote: > >A lawyer asked me if I had any devices made before 1997 that used RGB > >LEDs. I know that RGB LEDs have been around since at least 1991, but I > >don't have anything to offer them. If you have a device that uses a mux > >and PWM with the LEDs, that would apparently please them very much. > On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Brad Parker wrote: > I remember costing blue leds for a front panel sometime around 1991. They > were hundreds of dollars (I think out purchasing person spit out here coffe > when she got the info :-) > we went with red and green :-) In those days, "Tri-state" LEDs were available, that would give you a single LED, with red and green (and yellow (not brown)) depending on polarity From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 21:00:15 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 19:00:15 -0800 Subject: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? In-Reply-To: <200602061448020939.6841B0AD@10.0.0.252> References: <43E7C916.4070103@oldskool.org> <200602061448020939.6841B0AD@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: I think it is an AT&T terninal set up as a portable. The 345 series of numbers fits their last line of serial terniminals. I bet the "i" refers to intelligent so it has a CPU in it.(8 bit prob.) Some of ther terminals I have seen from that era had a handle on the top and a fold down keyboard. Paxton Astoria, OR USA On 2/6/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2/6/2006 at 4:09 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > > >Random woman emailed me that she has this thing and I don't know what to > >tell her. She uses the wording "monitor" but I can't tell if it really > >is a monitor or a laptop. > > Well, the Safari was a laptop and there were several models, but I've never > heard of a 345i. Maybe a 3151? At any rate, here's a photo of one: > > http://imagine41.com/catalog/images/at&tsafari3151laptop001.gif > > > > -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 8 21:04:32 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 20:04:32 -0700 Subject: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 08 Feb 2006 19:00:15 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Paxton Hoag writes: > I think it is an AT&T terninal set up as a portable. The 345 series > of numbers fits their last line of serial terniminals. I bet the "i" > refers to intelligent so it has a CPU in it.(8 bit prob.) The entry in "Collectible Microcomputers" jibes with the picture and describes it as a laptop running windows 3. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From news at computercollector.com Wed Feb 8 21:09:20 2006 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 19:09:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060209030920.10050.qmail@web31814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I contacted the seller. She explained that the 345 model number came from a manual she found in the laptop bag. I asked her what the manual said on it... she said "CRT"... LOL, she didn't realize the manual was from an entirely unrelated ordinary computer monitor and has nothing to do with the laptop at all. Later she mentioned a copyright reference to 1991 upon booting, but she didn't say if it got past booting or not. Anyway, the '91 reference gives it away: I am 99% sure it's just a not-too-interesting 386 laptop. --- Richard wrote: > > In article , > Paxton Hoag writes: > > > I think it is an AT&T terninal set up as a portable. The 345 series > > of numbers fits their last line of serial terniminals. I bet the "i" > > refers to intelligent so it has a CPU in it.(8 bit prob.) > > The entry in "Collectible Microcomputers" jibes with the picture and > describes it as a laptop running windows 3. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From josefcub at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 21:38:57 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 21:38:57 -0600 Subject: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? In-Reply-To: References: <43E7C916.4070103@oldskool.org> <200602061448020939.6841B0AD@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <9e2403920602081938j71d1d770ifb23dd7a8fed12b@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, The AT&T Safari is indeed a 386 laptop -- I used to run an early version of Linux on one, before it died an ignoble death. Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 8 21:45:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 19:45:38 -0800 Subject: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? In-Reply-To: <20060209030920.10050.qmail@web31814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060209030920.10050.qmail@web31814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200602081945380914.739ECC35@10.0.0.252> On 2/8/2006 at 7:09 PM Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: >I contacted the seller. She explained that the 345 model number came >from a >manual she found in the laptop bag. I asked her what the manual said on >it... >she said "CRT"... LOL, she didn't realize the manual was from an entirely >unrelated ordinary computer monitor and has nothing to do with the laptop >at >all. Later she mentioned a copyright reference to 1991 upon booting, but >she >didn't say if it got past booting or not. Anyway, the '91 reference gives >it >away: I am 99% sure it's just a not-too-interesting 386 laptop. Probably a 486 laptop, actually. Too new to be interesting? From news at computercollector.com Wed Feb 8 21:49:20 2006 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 19:49:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? In-Reply-To: <200602081945380914.739ECC35@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060209034920.49806.qmail@web31809.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >>> Probably a 486 laptop, actually. Too new to be interesting? As far as I'm concerned, even a 286 would be "too new to be interesting"... but I hope nobody wants to have THAT discussion again! --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 2/8/2006 at 7:09 PM Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > > >I contacted the seller. She explained that the 345 model number came > >from a > >manual she found in the laptop bag. I asked her what the manual said on > >it... > >she said "CRT"... LOL, she didn't realize the manual was from an entirely > >unrelated ordinary computer monitor and has nothing to do with the laptop > >at > >all. Later she mentioned a copyright reference to 1991 upon booting, but > >she > >didn't say if it got past booting or not. Anyway, the '91 reference gives > >it > >away: I am 99% sure it's just a not-too-interesting 386 laptop. > > Probably a 486 laptop, actually. Too new to be interesting? > > > > ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 8 21:50:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 19:50:17 -0800 Subject: HP150-II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602081950170140.73A30B02@10.0.0.252> On 2/8/2006 at 11:54 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Rarity does depend on the country in my experience. For examle the BBC >micro is extremely common in the UK, less so in the States. > >FWIW, I have an HP150-II with most of the mnauls (including the techref >with the suplement for the -II model) and a fair amount of software. The HP-150 II was common enough that we did a MS-DOS device driver to handle both 150 and 150-II diskette formats on IBM-PC systems. Mostly just another wannabe-IBM PC. --Chuck From allain at panix.com Wed Feb 8 22:01:13 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 23:01:13 -0500 Subject: sad ebay listing References: <43EA979D.3060006@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <007c01c62d2d$9647bd60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Sadder are things of value not offered on eBay, and just thrown in the trash. John A. From fernande at internet1.net Wed Feb 8 22:20:34 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 23:20:34 -0500 Subject: RS/6000 7012 Powerstation front panel question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43EAC312.6070405@internet1.net> compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > On metal cased (7030 and later 7012s) Metal cased? I wonder why they switched. I find the fibrous plastic of the RS6K's and PS/2's to be very nice..... one of the few times I can think of, that I've been impressed with plastic! > Older RS6ks are the same setup it appears, but you need to contrive a small hook (again, I commend old dental picks to your attention) that will hook under the rim about 1/2" below the surface of the button. Use two for a balanced pull. Have fun, and long live the classic 6K! I don't have any dental picks handy, but I do have a large paper clip and pliers. I've successfully pulled one off, and removed the switch from the panel. Thank You!! > P.S. - does anyone here have an idea why I.B.M. used Medeco locks on the system unit, when plenty of mischief can be made anyway? Fortunately, both mine came with keys. Neither of these 7012's have keys. I've never been on the inside of a lock, but I think it has little pins inside that I can remove. I'd like to pull the pins so I can use the key to my 7013-5xx. Granted it'll cease being a lock, but at least it will look factory finished and won't get bumped to a different position. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From James at jdfogg.com Wed Feb 8 23:19:46 2006 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 00:19:46 -0500 Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5C57@sbs.jdfogg.com> > A lawyer asked me if I had any devices made before 1997 that used RGB > LEDs. I know that RGB LEDs have been around since at least > 1991, but I > don't have anything to offer them. If you have a device > that uses a mux > and PWM with the LEDs, that would apparently please them very much. Could this be about the law suit Ford Motor Company settled with a Brazilian patent holder? It concerned the new "MyColor" color selectable instrument cluster lighting in the 2005/2006 Mustangs. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Feb 9 01:03:16 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 07:03:16 -0000 (GMT) Subject: sad ebay listing In-Reply-To: <43EA979D.3060006@msm.umr.edu> References: <43EA979D.3060006@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <6896.195.212.29.67.1139468596.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > I saw a calculator listing just now that said > > "turned it on, it glowed a minute, now it only glows green on the screen" > > "I'm not going to try to fix it"... > > THANK YOU. > > I'm not listing numbers so I don't get sued, but it isn't hard to find. > > Jim Well, what? Maybe they don't know much about electronics, and would rather see it go to someone who *can* repair it, without any tampering. Gordon. From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Thu Feb 9 01:11:25 2006 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 08:11:25 +0100 (MET) Subject: pro-350 dumpster dive Message-ID: <32127.1139469085@www103.gmx.net> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > When I was at university (both undergrad and grad student), I had > permission to 'skip dive' (same thing as dumpster diving, I guess). Over here we still have. If only there was a bit of an announcement before...would sometimes save dangerous stunts. I once dug back to the bottom of a nearly half-filled container to rescue a Sun Ultra 1 *and* had it snatched away minutes later while I was getting a cart to haul away my stuff. Bummer. > Among the things I recovered were : > > An HP2100A minicomputer with 7900 disk (that was in poor condtiion > as it landed on the front panel) and paper tape reader Broken trim and bad harddisks are alas common consequences of people treating as trash what they consider trash. Nearly made me jump down from a 2nd floor window when I heard the racket and saw somebody hurtling a Sun IPX into that same skip so hard it broke open! I also missed several boxes of VMEbus cards that day. My best and biggest dumpster pick up to now was a Sun SPARCserver 1000. It was piled atop a fully loaded skip so I had to stand on the maybe 4" wide side rail clinging to the rim and carefully balance it on the wall so I could jump down and get it. Note on dumpsters on private property: Over here in Europe you often only have to ring the bell and ask and you get invited to help yourself to whatever you want from there - that's how it usually works for me. Cheers, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de DSL-Aktion wegen gro?er Nachfrage bis 28.2.2006 verl?ngert: GMX DSL-Flatrate 1 Jahr kostenlos* http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Feb 9 01:19:52 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 07:19:52 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: <200602090225.k192PoBb024590@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: Your message of "Wed, 08 Feb 2006 18:13:16 PST." <200602090225.k192PoBb024590@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <63030.195.212.29.67.1139469592.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > > Doug Salot wrote: >>A lawyer asked me if I had any devices made before 1997 that used RGB >>LEDs. I know that RGB LEDs have been around since at least 1991, but I >>don't have anything to offer them. If you have a device that uses a mux >>and PWM with the LEDs, that would apparently please them very much. > > I remember costing blue leds for a front panel sometime around 1991. They > were hundreds of dollars (I think out purchasing person spit out here > coffe > when she got the info :-) > > we went with red and green :-) > > -brad I remember seeing blue LEDs in a catalogue in the late 80s - the listing said something like "BLUE LEDs! Yes, *BLUE* ?30 (that's right, 30 quid)" This was from an otherwise fairly serious company, can't remember who though... Gordon. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 9 01:26:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 23:26:14 -0800 Subject: pro-350 dumpster dive In-Reply-To: <32127.1139469085@www103.gmx.net> References: <32127.1139469085@www103.gmx.net> Message-ID: <200602082326140790.7468C1D1@10.0.0.252> On 2/9/2006 at 8:11 AM Arno Kletzander wrote: >Note on dumpsters on private property: >Over here in Europe you often only have to ring the bell and ask and >you get invited to help yourself to whatever you want from there - >that's how it usually works for me. Many of the larger firms (read: the ones with really good stuff to throw out) employ a hydraulic compactor to reduce the volume of trash. I cannot imagine for one second any facilities person allowing you near such a device. Most of the really good equipment that I've seen people get was done by arrangement with the facilities staff to have the aforementioned goodie mysteriously disappear off the loading dock before hitting the dumpster. A little cash can sometimes result in great favors. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 9 01:28:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2006 23:28:49 -0800 Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: <63030.195.212.29.67.1139469592.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> References: Your message of "Wed, 08 Feb 2006 18:13:16 PST." <200602090225.k192PoBb024590@mwave.heeltoe.com> <63030.195.212.29.67.1139469592.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200602082328490856.746B1F88@10.0.0.252> On 2/9/2006 at 7:19 AM gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: >I remember seeing blue LEDs in a catalogue in the late 80s - the listing >said something like "BLUE LEDs! Yes, *BLUE* ?30 (that's right, 30 quid)" IIRC, the first blue LEDs were silicon carbide devices and miserably dim compared to their red and green cousins. I suppose someone could have created a full-color display with them, but it would have been expensive and not very bright. Cheers, Chuck From trimarktc at yahoo.com Wed Feb 8 10:54:49 2006 From: trimarktc at yahoo.com (Mark Dunning) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 08:54:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for DEC Parts???? Message-ID: <20060208165449.16246.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> Are you still looking for DEC Part Number 21-17311-01??? Mark Dunning __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Feb 8 18:15:48 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 16:15:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Doug Salot wrote: > A lawyer asked me if I had any devices made before 1997 that used RGB > LEDs. I know that RGB LEDs have been around since at least 1991, but I > don't have anything to offer them. If you have a device that uses a mux > and PWM with the LEDs, that would apparently please them very much. > > I'm sure there will be a bounty involved, but I haven't been given > specifics. Hey Doug! I would imagine one of those scrolling LED displays you see at the bank or the DMV might be useful. I can't think of anything in my collection that would fit the bill. Sounds like someone is trying to invalidate a patent on color flat panel displays. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 8 18:58:03 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 16:58:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP150-II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060209005803.54986.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> > > anyone got Windows > (was it v 1.03?) for > > this box? > > I am ashamed to admit that I think I haev it > somewhere. Be warned it's > painful to use (even worse than later versions of > LuseDoze on PCs in some > respsects...) Shouldn't only a driver be required to run Windows 1.0x on any of the semi-compatibles? Does the "-II" refer to the unit they added the touchscreen feature to? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 8 21:39:54 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2006 19:39:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: need a keyboard for a MINDSET computer Message-ID: <20060209033954.96554.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> I would imagine the only way to get one is to find another whole system. In the rare event theres any technical docs out there, those could definately be useful. I opened the thing up and apparently it uses an 8042 in a supervisory capacity (like an IBM PC/AT I guess). It has a second one for I dont know what. The BYTE article referred to them as auxiliary coprocessors or some crap. What the vintage computer community needs is a reconfigurable keyboard thingamabob. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Phil.Gobbett at ntl.com Tue Feb 7 16:00:41 2006 From: Phil.Gobbett at ntl.com (Phil Gobbett) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2006 22:00:41 -0000 Subject: Can anyone help me Message-ID: <5DD689222800D411B26100508B5E95841442704C@mast-hk0-se02.private.ntl.com> Hi, Just found your board and thought you might be able to help me. I'm currently trying to reverse engineer the code in my Ford EEC-V Engine control unit. This unit is based around the Intel 8065 Chip set and I was hoping someone on the board may be able to help me reverse engineer the software in this unit, so that I can play around with the various fuel and ignition maps and other variables in the code. If I'm really able to get to grips with the code I'd like to rewrite it to: Use a single coil per cylinder rather the wasted spark method. Use a wide band O2 sensor Gary Messick has posted on this subject on this board 4 years ago but I don't know if he is still active. Ideally I'm looking for someone who had exposure to the Ford / Intel 8061 / 8065 chip set as part of their work Here's hoping one of you is able to help me or can point me at a current email address for Gary Messick. Regards Phil The contents of this email and any attachments are sent for the personal attention of the addressee(s) only and may be confidential. If you are not the intended addressee, any use, disclosure or copying of this email and any attachments is unauthorised - please notify the sender by return and delete the message. Any representations or commitments expressed in this email are subject to contract. ntl Group Limited From bqt at update.uu.se Thu Feb 9 04:59:29 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 11:59:29 +0100 Subject: Original 11/74 front panel In-Reply-To: <200602090717.k197HRO7022490@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200602090717.k197HRO7022490@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43EB2091.6040306@update.uu.se> "Julian Wolfe (FireflyST)" wrote: > Okay, what I immediately noticed is that these machines say "MP" and Don's panel doesn't. More differences: Don's panel have the location for the key moved to the other side of the parity lamps. Which is rather weird. Also, the screenprint of 11/74 looks shadowed, which is weird. And the right hand side have a different color than the left hand side. And of course, the 11/74s from Tim don't have any CIS stuff on the front panel. (I'm still thinking that Don's panel have never had a matching piece of real hardware, since I don't think that CPU was ever built.) Tim's picture however are of a real machine. Don't know which one, though. If it's just a two CPU machine, it might have been POLLUX::, since CASTOR:: was four CPUs. However, other machine have existed in the past. > Were there non-multiprocessor 11/74s? If so, what would have been the benefits over 11/70s? Yes there were. And the benifits were none. Actually, they were slightly worse than normal 11/70s, but the difference were minimal. After DEC decided to not make the 11/74 into a commercial product, they used 11/74 parts for 11/70 machines. Atleast inhouse. Not sure if any of those parts found their way into customers machines. Used as such, the differences were basically related to cache: The MMU have the cache bypass bit. The ASRB instruction always bypass the cache, and you can also order the machine to explicitly bypass the cache (unless my memory fails me). But nothing of this was used by any OS normally, so the only thing noticeable would be the slower ASRB instruction. Johnny > -----Original Message----- > >>From: Tim Shoppa >>Sent: Feb 8, 2006 12:24 PM >>To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>Subject: Re: Original 11/74 front panel >> >>Don North wrote >> >>>So how many of these panels exist is hard to say. I know only of one. >> >>Two more can be seen at >> >> http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/1174Xopen.jpg >> >>So that makes three :-). >> >>Tim. -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Feb 9 05:07:36 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 11:07:36 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Original 11/74 front panel In-Reply-To: <43EB2091.6040306@update.uu.se> References: <200602090717.k197HRO7022490@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43EB2091.6040306@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <43030.195.212.29.67.1139483256.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > "Julian Wolfe (FireflyST)" wrote: > >> Okay, what I immediately noticed is that these machines say "MP" and >> Don's panel doesn't. > > More differences: Don's panel have the location for the key moved to the > other side of the parity lamps. Which is rather weird. > Also, the screenprint of 11/74 looks shadowed, which is weird. And the > right hand side have a different color than the left hand side. I think that was an artifact of scanning it. Gordon. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 9 05:10:42 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 11:10:42 +0000 Subject: sad ebay listing In-Reply-To: <43EA979D.3060006@msm.umr.edu> References: <43EA979D.3060006@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <43EB2332.4070904@yahoo.co.uk> jim stephens wrote: > I saw a calculator listing just now that said > > "turned it on, it glowed a minute, now it only glows green on the screen" We get that a lot with museum donations - people want to be able to say whether the item works or not when they offer it to us, so they turn it on even if they know nothing about computers. "It did work but then the smoke came out - anyway, do you want it?" is quite common... (normally just caps thankfully. The really annoying ones are when the media gets trashed!) cheers Jules From lee at geekdot.com Thu Feb 9 05:12:59 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (lee at geekdot.com) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 12:12:59 +0100 (CET) Subject: sad ebay listing Message-ID: <4836.86.139.194.172.1139483579.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > I'm not listing numbers so I don't get sued, but it isn't hard to find. 5863827105 .. and it would have been easier to find if your quotes had not been paraphrased. Lee. From cbajpai at comcast.net Thu Feb 9 06:38:39 2006 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 07:38:39 -0500 Subject: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? In-Reply-To: <20060209030920.10050.qmail@web31814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200602091250.k19Co8k2060455@keith.ezwind.net> It's definitely a 386 laptop based on the Intel 386SL chipset. If it's the same machine I'm thinking of it also has a PCMCIA slot - the company I worked for, SystemSoft did both the BIOS firmware and PCMCIA for the machine. The interesting thing about the machine that it seemed very rugged to the point of being bulky, but it was designed for on the road use. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Computer Collector Newsletter Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 10:09 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? I contacted the seller. She explained that the 345 model number came from a manual she found in the laptop bag. I asked her what the manual said on it... she said "CRT"... LOL, she didn't realize the manual was from an entirely unrelated ordinary computer monitor and has nothing to do with the laptop at all. Later she mentioned a copyright reference to 1991 upon booting, but she didn't say if it got past booting or not. Anyway, the '91 reference gives it away: I am 99% sure it's just a not-too-interesting 386 laptop. --- Richard wrote: > > In article , > Paxton Hoag writes: > > > I think it is an AT&T terninal set up as a portable. The 345 series > > of numbers fits their last line of serial terniminals. I bet the "i" > > refers to intelligent so it has a CPU in it.(8 bit prob.) > > The entry in "Collectible Microcomputers" jibes with the picture and > describes it as a laptop running windows 3. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 9 07:23:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 06:23:55 -0700 Subject: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 08 Feb 2006 19:09:20 -0800. <20060209030920.10050.qmail@web31814.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <20060209030920.10050.qmail at web31814.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Computer Collector Newsletter writes: > [...] I am 99% sure it's just a not-too-interesting 386 laptop. Collectible Microcomputers claims it has some interest :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Feb 9 07:34:54 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 08:34:54 -0500 Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43EB44FE.50100@atarimuseum.com> I'm trying to remember exactly, but I semi-recall a ChipCom concentrator I installed back in 95' that had tri state LEDs in them for displaying active/disable/partition status, I installed one at Lighthouse for the Blind in Manhattan and we had multiple networking running through it and partitioning of networks on the cards for the IPX/SPX trafffic and the LAT Terminal servers traffic, you may want to check. Curt Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Doug Salot wrote: > > >> A lawyer asked me if I had any devices made before 1997 that used RGB >> LEDs. I know that RGB LEDs have been around since at least 1991, but I >> don't have anything to offer them. If you have a device that uses a mux >> and PWM with the LEDs, that would apparently please them very much. >> >> I'm sure there will be a bounty involved, but I haven't been given >> specifics. >> > > Hey Doug! > > I would imagine one of those scrolling LED displays you see at the bank or > the DMV might be useful. I can't think of anything in my collection that > would fit the bill. > > Sounds like someone is trying to invalidate a patent on color flat panel > displays. > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.3/254 - Release Date: 2/8/2006 From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Feb 9 09:08:43 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 09:08:43 -0600 Subject: SmallDog Elex. recycling - source? In-Reply-To: <200602022102.k12L2aMB015273@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200602022102.k12L2aMB015273@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Is anyone near Waitsfield, Vermont? I note that Small Dog Electronics ( http://www.smalldog.com ) has a website that harps on their environmental responsibility, and offers a computer recycling service. Not affiliated except as a customer, and curious (if you already know them) whether they are good folks. If they are, they might be willing to filter out interesting stuff from their recycle stream. -- - Mark NOTE: MOBILE CONTACT NOW 2-WAY PAGER AT: 888-733-0967 office is still: 210-522-6025 From James at jdfogg.com Thu Feb 9 09:30:51 2006 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 10:30:51 -0500 Subject: SmallDog Elex. recycling - source? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5C58@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Is anyone near Waitsfield, Vermont? I note that Small Dog > Electronics ( http://www.smalldog.com ) has a website that > harps on their environmental responsibility, and offers a > computer recycling service. Not affiliated except as a > customer, and curious (if you already know them) whether they > are good folks. If they are, they might be willing to filter > out interesting stuff from their recycle stream. > -- Smalldog is near me (1 hour away). These guys are awesome. Friends and I have done business with them (friends were by weborder/mailorder). They do recycle, and they use Wincycle as a recycling partner (www.wincycle.org). And yes, Wincycle gets rescue-worthy systems frequently, I just don't get out there often enough. Wincycle will recondition / resell what's useable, mostly to schools, non profits and low income families. Smalldog is very active in Apple's refurb program. Smalldog also lets me bring my small dogs with me to visit (the dog theme is based in a real life dog story). From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Feb 9 11:39:22 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 12:39:22 -0500 Subject: need a keyboard for a MINDSET computer In-Reply-To: <20060209033954.96554.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060209033954.96554.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43EB7E4A.40500@atarimuseum.com> Chris, Have a look on my webpage - http://www.atarimuseum.com/otherprojects/nonatari/mindset/mindset.html Down at the bottom of the page of photo's of the inside of the keyboard, I don't have a reader compatible with an 8749, if anyone has one and would read the code off the microprocessor, I will post it up onto the webpage as well... Curt Chris M wrote: > I would imagine the only way to get one is to find > another whole system. In the rare event theres any > technical docs out there, those could definately be > useful. I opened the thing up and apparently it uses > an 8042 in a supervisory capacity (like an IBM PC/AT I > guess). It has a second one for I dont know what. The > BYTE article referred to them as auxiliary > coprocessors or some crap. What the vintage computer > community needs is a reconfigurable keyboard thingamabob. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.3/254 - Release Date: 2/8/2006 From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 9 11:51:58 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 12:51:58 -0500 Subject: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c62da1$875a3b60$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Michael N. once told me that his manuscript actually included 1,200 systems but the publisher cut it to 700. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 8:24 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? In article <20060209030920.10050.qmail at web31814.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Computer Collector Newsletter writes: > [...] I am 99% sure it's just a not-too-interesting 386 laptop. Collectible Microcomputers claims it has some interest :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Feb 9 11:49:54 2006 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 12:49:54 -0500 Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Doug Salot wrote: > A lawyer asked me if I had any devices made before 1997 that used RGB > LEDs. I know that RGB LEDs have been around since at least 1991, but I > don't have anything to offer them. If you have a device that uses a mux > and PWM with the LEDs, that would apparently please them very much. > > I'm sure there will be a bounty involved, but I haven't been given > specifics. Just as a backgrounder, there's a company called Color Kinetics that owns the patent for mixing R, G, and B light from LED's. I was briefly targeted by the company in the 90's for suggesting on Usenet that the same could be done without paying them royalties. I know that most legal action is heavy-handed, but these guys are big hitters and will come down hard on anyone who suggests that mixing these colors can be done without paying them royalties. Tim. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 9 12:08:12 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 11:08:12 -0700 Subject: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 09 Feb 2006 12:51:58 -0500. <000601c62da1$875a3b60$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: In article <000601c62da1$875a3b60$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" writes: > Michael N. once told me that his manuscript actually included 1,200 systems > but the publisher cut it to 700. I can believe that. Publishers are bastards :-). I would rather pay a reasonable fee for an online database that experienced continual updates. Until Michael makes something like that, there's ; I encourage people to contribute to that site if they haven't already. The problem is that most times when people adopt a subscriber model for internet content their subscriber fees are so unreasonable that they are exhorbitant. Things like online subscriptions costing more than print subscriptions, but being bombarded with more invasive advertising in the online version. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 9 12:21:02 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 13:21:02 -0500 Subject: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001801c62da5$95ef9cc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I definitely agree that www.old-computers.com is the best online resource for microcomputer systems data. I think of that site mostly as reference guide, almost an encyclopedia, of microcomputer history. Lucky for me, their "magazine" page is rarely updated. :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 1:08 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? In article <000601c62da1$875a3b60$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" writes: > Michael N. once told me that his manuscript actually included 1,200 > systems but the publisher cut it to 700. I can believe that. Publishers are bastards :-). I would rather pay a reasonable fee for an online database that experienced continual updates. Until Michael makes something like that, there's ; I encourage people to contribute to that site if they haven't already. The problem is that most times when people adopt a subscriber model for internet content their subscriber fees are so unreasonable that they are exhorbitant. Things like online subscriptions costing more than print subscriptions, but being bombarded with more invasive advertising in the online version. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 9 12:18:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 10:18:02 -0800 Subject: OT Rant: Re: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602091018020382.76BD7DDB@10.0.0.252> On 2/9/2006 at 12:49 PM Tim Shoppa wrote: >Just as a backgrounder, there's a company called Color Kinetics that >owns the patent for mixing R, G, and B light from LED's. I was briefly targeted >by the company in the 90's for suggesting on Usenet that the same could be done >without paying them royalties. If you ever want to know what's wrong with the US patent system, look no further than this. Exactly how is this "idea" different from using colored incandescent or fluorescent lamps, lasers, or for that matter, colored bits of starch on a transparent background or even colored signal flares? It uses LEDs. To me, this falls under the category of "obvious", but it would likely take years of litigation and megabucks to get the patent overturned. How does this kind of stuff advance the art? And don't get me started on the subject of software patents... --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Feb 9 12:27:29 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 13:27:29 -0500 Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43EB8991.1060407@atarimuseum.com> I'm wondering if this may have something to do with Nintendo's big E3 display back on 05' They had these huge towering columns running with little "paks" of RGB leds on them and where creating realtime full motion animation on them throughout the E3 show, where it would show much of the gameplay and such of their Nintendo DS handhelds, there were also some full sized "screens" using the LED's and acting as Television sets in effect, the images were only viewable quality from 50 or so feet away, but very cool nonetheless, so I'm wondering if perhaps someone OEM'd them to Nintendo or other companies and perhaps that is where these questions are stemming from? Curt Tim Shoppa wrote: > On Wed, 8 Feb 2006, Doug Salot wrote: > > >> A lawyer asked me if I had any devices made before 1997 that used RGB >> LEDs. I know that RGB LEDs have been around since at least 1991, but >> > I > >> don't have anything to offer them. If you have a device that uses a >> > mux > >> and PWM with the LEDs, that would apparently please them very much. >> >> I'm sure there will be a bounty involved, but I haven't been given >> specifics. >> > > Just as a backgrounder, there's a company called Color Kinetics that > owns the > patent for mixing R, G, and B light from LED's. I was briefly targeted > by the > company in the 90's for suggesting on Usenet that the same could be done > without > paying them royalties. I know that most legal action is heavy-handed, > but these > guys are big hitters and will come down hard on anyone who suggests that > mixing these colors can be done without paying them royalties. > > Tim. > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.3/254 - Release Date: 2/8/2006 From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Feb 9 12:54:40 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:54:40 +0000 Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: <43EB8991.1060407@atarimuseum.com> References: <43EB8991.1060407@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <43EB8FF0.105@gjcp.net> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I'm wondering if this may have something to do with Nintendo's big E3 > display back on 05' They had these huge towering columns running with > little "paks" of RGB leds on them and where creating realtime full > motion animation on them throughout the E3 show, where it would show > much of the gameplay and such of their Nintendo DS handhelds, there were > also some full sized "screens" using the LED's and acting as Television > sets in effect, the images were only viewable quality from 50 or so feet > away, but very cool nonetheless, so I'm wondering if perhaps someone > OEM'd them to Nintendo or other companies and perhaps that is where > these questions are stemming from? You can buy huge truck-mounted mobile LED full-colour displays. There was one on eBay a few months back for about ?140,000 B.I.N. which even included the 60kVA genny. Gordon. From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Feb 9 13:03:03 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 19:03:03 -0000 Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00cc01c62dab$75220860$5b01a8c0@pc1> Tim Shoppa wrote: > Just as a backgrounder, there's a company called Color Kinetics that > owns the patent for mixing R, G, and B light from LED's. I was > briefly targeted by the company in the 90's for suggesting on Usenet > that the same could be done without paying them royalties. I know > that most legal action is heavy-handed, but these guys are big > hitters and will come down hard on anyone who suggests that mixing > these colors can be done without paying them royalties. They musty have been trying it on. There's surely no way they can do anything to stop you discussing how to avoid their patent. Nothing to stop them trying to scare you off though. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Feb 9 13:20:59 2006 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:20:59 -0500 Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? Message-ID: a.carlini wrote: > They musty have been trying it on. There's surely no way they > can do anything to stop you discussing how to avoid their patent. > Nothing to stop them trying to scare you off though. I was actually doing more than just discussing it, I had been doing it in my basement for a couple of years and even was selling my product. My mistake was discussing it on Usenet. "It" in this case is PWM modulation of R, G, and B LED's which are then mixed together. And that is exactly what their patent covers, even though it was blatantly obvious long before they ever existed. Tim. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Feb 9 13:37:06 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 11:37:06 -0800 Subject: Original 11/74 front panel In-Reply-To: <43030.195.212.29.67.1139483256.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> References: <200602090717.k197HRO7022490@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43EB2091.6040306@update.uu.se> <43030.195.212.29.67.1139483256.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43EB99E2.2060807@mindspring.com> gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: >> "Julian Wolfe (FireflyST)" wrote: >> >> >>> Okay, what I immediately noticed is that these machines say "MP" and >>> Don's panel doesn't. >>> >> More differences: Don's panel have the location for the key moved to the >> other side of the parity lamps. Which is rather weird. >> Also, the screenprint of 11/74 looks shadowed, which is weird. And the >> right hand side have a different color than the left hand side. >> > > I think that was an artifact of scanning it. > > Gordon. > Completely true. This is not a digital photograph, but I put the panel on a flatbed scanner with a 14" max capability. Since the panel is over 14" wide I had to scan it in two pieces and merge them; that accounts for the vertical line artifact between the main lights and the switches on the righthand side. One of these days I'll take a better single view digital picture. Don From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Feb 9 14:01:18 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 12:01:18 -0800 Subject: Original 11/74 front panel In-Reply-To: <43EB2091.6040306@update.uu.se> References: <200602090717.k197HRO7022490@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43EB2091.6040306@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <43EB9F8E.7050808@mindspring.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > "Julian Wolfe (FireflyST)" wrote: > >> Okay, what I immediately noticed is that these machines say "MP" and >> Don's panel doesn't. > > More differences: Don's panel have the location for the key moved to > the other side of the parity lamps. Which is rather weird. > Also, the screenprint of 11/74 looks shadowed, which is weird. And the > right hand side have a different color than the left hand side. > And of course, the 11/74s from Tim don't have any CIS stuff on the > front panel. Besides moving the keyswitch, the dial selector knobs on the righthand side were moved around as well to make space to label all the extra switch positions. As I mentioned in another reply, the artifacts are due to scanning the panel on a 14" flatbed scanner in two pieces, and merging the scans. When I get around to it I'll take a high quality single-view photograph. > (I'm still thinking that Don's panel have never had a matching piece > of real hardware, since I don't think that CPU was ever built.) I can only say that I worked on real 11/74 hardware in 1978-9 writing microcode for the 11/74 CIS (commercial instruction set) accelerator (packed decimal, string instructions, etc). See http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/Prelim_KB11-E_Diffs_Aug78.pdf for a memo written by Ray Boucher, one of the hardware designers (Al, how did you ever come across a memo such as this???). The other hardware designed was Mike Brown. The other microcoders were Dave Sager and Lewis Costas. The project manager was Dave Barry. How much more do you need to know? Not a lot of 11/74 CIS systems were built, probably no more than a dozen or so maximum. The 11/74 folded in the 11/70MP changes which had been done about a year earlier, so an 11/74 was really an 11/70MP base plus the CIS option. Later when the 11/74 CIS was killed as a product, the 11/74 name lived on, but it was strictly a renamed version of the 11/70MP. > > Tim's picture however are of a real machine. Don't know which one, > though. If it's just a two CPU machine, it might have been POLLUX::, > since CASTOR:: was four CPUs. However, other machine have existed in > the past. > >> Were there non-multiprocessor 11/74s? If so, what would have been >> the benefits over 11/70s? > > Yes there were. And the benifits were none. Actually, they were > slightly worse than normal 11/70s, but the difference were minimal. > After DEC decided to not make the 11/74 into a commercial product, > they used 11/74 parts for 11/70 machines. Atleast inhouse. Not sure if > any of those parts found their way into customers machines. > > Used as such, the differences were basically related to cache: The MMU > have the cache bypass bit. The ASRB instruction always bypass the > cache, and you can also order the machine to explicitly bypass the > cache (unless my memory fails me). > > But nothing of this was used by any OS normally, so the only thing > noticeable would be the slower ASRB instruction. > > Johnny > > All true statements. ASRB to memory was modified to act as the semaphore instruction and thus always bypassed the cache AND did an atomic read/modify/write cycle to the memory. The valid semaphore memory values were 0 and 1; ASRB would then always set the memory value to 0 and return the old value in the C-bit from the right shift carry out. From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Feb 9 14:30:30 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 15:30:30 -0500 Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: <200602091800.k19I0bi2027299@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004101c62db7$abc11260$6601a8c0@barry> Wrong. Blue (and White) LEDs are a relatively recent invention. I'm not sure when they first came into existence, but it was WAY after 1991; it was closer to or even after 2000, although it might have been in the very late 1990's. White LEDs were even later. There were 3 color LEDs in 1991, but not RGB. > >A lawyer asked me if I had any devices made before 1997 that used RGB >LEDs. I know that RGB LEDs have been around since at least 1991 > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 9 14:49:22 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:49:22 +0000 Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: <004101c62db7$abc11260$6601a8c0@barry> References: <004101c62db7$abc11260$6601a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <43EBAAD2.40806@yahoo.co.uk> Barry Watzman wrote: > > Wrong. Blue (and White) LEDs are a relatively recent invention. I'm not > sure when they first came into existence, but it was WAY after 1991; it was > closer to or even after 2000 Blue LEDs are listed as 2 pounds each in my 1994 Maplin catalogue, FWIW (but no sign of white ones then) cheers Jules From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Feb 9 14:49:06 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:49:06 +0000 Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Feb 2006 15:30:30 EST." <004101c62db7$abc11260$6601a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <200602092049.UAA27238@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Barry Watzman said: > > > Wrong. Blue (and White) LEDs are a relatively recent invention. I'm not > sure when they first came into existence, but it was WAY after 1991; it was > closer to or even after 2000, although it might have been in the very late > 1990's. White LEDs were even later. There were 3 color LEDs in 1991, but > not RGB. I have blue LEDs listed in a 1995 catalog. They're not even very expensive, 74 pence each, say about $1.25, so they must have been around for a while before that. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From doug at blinkenlights.com Thu Feb 9 17:10:28 2006 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 15:10:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: <004101c62db7$abc11260$6601a8c0@barry> Message-ID: On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, Barry Watzman wrote: > Wrong. Blue (and White) LEDs are a relatively recent invention. I'm not > sure when they first came into existence, but it was WAY after 1991; it was > closer to or even after 2000, although it might have been in the very late > 1990's. White LEDs were even later. There were 3 color LEDs in 1991, but > not RGB. LEDTRONICS INCORPORATED * FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE * 9005 Pacific Coast Highway Torrance, CA 90505 (213) 549-9995 fax (213)549-4820 MARCH 8, 1991 FULL SPECTRUM RGB LED PRODUCES A RAINBOW OF COLORS TORRANCE, CALIFORNIA -- Today, the industry's first integrated red, green, blue (RGB) LED is available for the wide range of applications anticipated since last years introduction of the blueLED. Designated the L300RGB series, this discrete is packaged in a clear or diffused 0.300" ( 8mm ) case. Incorporating state of the art chip mounting technology that dissipates heat in closely spaced chip arrays, this discrete utilizes high efficiency red chips ( 635nm), high efficiency green chips ( 565nm), and 470nm blue chips. Direct access to the RGB chips and a common cathode provide a virtual cornucopia of color to the applications engineer. Within the next six (6) months, this RGB discrete will be available in a T1-3/4 (3mm) package. Design analyses for the T1 (3mm) package are progressing. Additionally, total flexibility in chip selection has been retained. Thus, this device can be manufactured with deep red (660nm), pure green (555nm), and 470nm blue chips. The potential applications for this discrete are as varied as the colors available from it. First, of course, is a the [sic] best rendition of a white color available in the LED market. The L300RGB also serves as the fundamental multicolored pixel for large area full color screens/monitors/displays. Additionally, the L300RGB can be used in full color moving signs/displays, as a light source for a variety of scanners such as used in color copiers and equipment which senses a paper's color differences to detect counterfeit currency, as a spectral analysis reference or source in color scanning and high speed document reading, and color synthesis for photic stimulation/simulation. Data sheets for the L300RGB are available describing the brightness of each chip and related electro-optical characteristics. Necessary bias requirement to operate the L300RGB as a 5 VDC discrete to obtain a white color are also provided. Application notes regarding other colors/characteristics are currently in preperation. Gather up the power supply and decade resistance box -- develop your rainbow of color. Prototype quantities are immediately available. Costs for OEM quantities are expected to be in the $5-$7 range. From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 9 15:13:32 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 16:13:32 -0500 Subject: VCF East 3 plans, part two.... Message-ID: <005d01c62dbd$aea278b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Part 2: (in case you missed part 1, it's below) -- I forgot to mention in Part 1 that all exhibitors also get one free guest pass -- We have hotel rate of $109 at the Holiday Inn (wifi, decent food) -- (732) 544-9300 -- We could use some volunteer staffers, if anyone's willing just ping me... --------------- Part 1: Our club, MARCH (Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists), is now announcing the prices and times for VCF East 3.0: General public admission: Adults -- $10 13 and under -- $7 Hours: Sat. 9:30AM-6:00PM ------------------- Consignment area: - $1 to be included / First-come, first-served (limited space) - 20% of sale goes to MARCH / 80% goes to seller - Anything unclaimed becomes a MARCH donation ------------------- Exhibitor fees: Standard booth (approx. 6x8 ft.): MARCH members -- $20 Non-members -- $25 Extra-large booth (limited availability) MARCH members - $30 Non-members -- $35 Included for all exhibitor booths: basic 110V power, one t-shirt, a 2x6-ft. table, and dinner (pizza etc.) Friday set-up -- 3PM - 8PM / Saturday set-up -- 7AM-9AM Exhibitor / VIP dinner -- Sat. 7PM ------------------ Lectures will run all day long. Questions / Special requests: please email me at evank at marchclub.org (NOT at my newsletter address) ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 9 15:24:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 13:24:26 -0800 Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602091324260517.77682C71@10.0.0.252> On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, Barry Watzman wrote: > > Wrong. Blue (and White) LEDs are a relatively recent invention. I'm not > sure when they first came into existence, but it was WAY after 1991; it >was closer to or even after 2000, although it might have been in the very >late 1990's. White LEDs were even later. There were 3 color LEDs in 1991, >but not RGB. Cree introduced their SiC blue LED in 1990. But there were yellow SiC LEDs dating from the 1970s and electroluminescence from SiC was observed as early as 1907. SiC LEDs aren't very efficient, nor do they put out a lot of light (they will operate at very high temperatures, however). GaN blue LEDs date from about 1996. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Feb 9 15:34:03 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:34:03 -0500 Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 09 Feb 2006 15:30:30 EST." <004101c62db7$abc11260$6601a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <200602092134.k19LY3AV007478@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Barry Watzman" wrote: > > >Wrong. Blue (and White) LEDs are a relatively recent invention. I'm not >sure when they first came into existence, but it was WAY after 1991; I beg to differ. I had one in a plastic bag in the early '90's. It was very expensive but I would swear it was before 1992. Certainly before 1994 - of that I am certain. (I mark time by which company I started when :-) By '94 I was running a small ISP and we didn't do product development) They didn't become widely available until the late '90s, I agree. -brad "Silicon Carbide Blue - These are the original commercially successful blue LEDs pioneered by Cree in the early 1990's." http://members.misty.com/don/ledc.html From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 9 16:06:41 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:06:41 -0800 Subject: GPIB-to-USB Message-ID: <200602091406410351.778EDA56@10.0.0.252> I know that there are a number of HP enthusiasts here. This item was in the current EDN online and I thought it might interest someone: http://www.edn.com/article/CA6290453.html?spacedesc=designideas Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 9 16:22:55 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 15:22:55 -0700 Subject: SEMI OT END OF TELEGRAM AGE STOP In-Reply-To: <20060203083933.8A8C5BA486C@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <020e01c6285b$eb242f70$72781941@game> <43E2B45A.1060105@yahoo.co.uk> <43E2C82D.2020201@oldskool.org> <20060203083933.8A8C5BA486C@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <43EBC0BF.8050907@jetnet.ab.ca> Tim Shoppa wrote: >My house has no cable or satellite access; I look forward to throwing >away all the TV's when NTSC broadcasts are gone! I should've ditched >the idiot box years ago! > > > But you need still cable or even a local TV station like my new wide screen Tv that is used only for DVD's and VHS tapes.The default power on setup is to scan all the channels and video sources that is a pain since you can't easly break out out the scaning loop to look out all unused channels. >Tim. > >. > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 9 14:42:31 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 20:42:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150-II In-Reply-To: <20060209005803.54986.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 8, 6 04:58:03 pm Message-ID: > > I am ashamed to admit that I think I haev it > > somewhere. Be warned it's > > painful to use (even worse than later versions of > > LuseDoze on PCs in some > > respsects...) > > Shouldn't only a driver be required to run Windows > 1.0x on any of the semi-compatibles? Wuite possibly. But WIndows was sold as an HP product for the HP150 (I have it, original disks and manual). > Does the "-II" refer to the unit they added the > touchscreen feature to? No (in fact you could say it's the reverse, the HP150 always has the touchscreen, on the 150-II it's an option). The 150-II is quite different from the 150. It's in an almost cubical case with a tilting CRT (like some of the later HP termninals). The CRT is 12" (the 150's is 9") It has 4 vertically-positioned expansion slots (the 150 has 2, horizontally positioned). The 150-II uses HP-HIL for the keyboard and touchscreen (and you can add a mouse on HP-HIL too). There is no optional intenral printer on the 150-II. It has a power output socket for the 9123 diosk drive. It can officially take an 8087 coprocrssor card [1]. I have an idea there are even a few software incompatabilities between the 150 and 150-II Electronically it's a complete redisign, with a lot more custom chips than a 150. [1] What a kludge. The 150-II has an 8088 on the mainboard, used in 'minimum mode', which means some of the coprocessor signals are not available. The coprocessor card contains an 8088 in 'maximum mode', the 8087 and some interface logic. It disables the 8088 on the mainboard.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 9 14:45:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 20:45:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: sad ebay listing In-Reply-To: <43EA979D.3060006@msm.umr.edu> from "jim stephens" at Feb 8, 6 05:15:09 pm Message-ID: > > I saw a calculator listing just now that said > > "turned it on, it glowed a minute, now it only glows green on the screen" However many times we sau that applying power is the _last_ thing to do (in other words, check over the machine first, at least a visual inspection, and run the PSU on dummy load), people still do it. At least in this case it's unlikely the machine is irrepairable. > > "I'm not going to try to fix it"... I guess we should be thankful for that. Anyone who plugs in an old machine without checking it over first is not likely to be that good at repairing it. > > THANK YOU. > > I'm not listing numbers so I don't get sued, but it isn't hard to find. If it's the machine I think it is (a Friden), the listing is inconsistent anyway. He says he'll ship to Europe (it shows up in ebay.co.uk, for example), but says in the description that he won't ship overseas. I am wondering how you get it to Europe without going overseas ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 9 14:51:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 20:51:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: sad ebay listing In-Reply-To: <007c01c62d2d$9647bd60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Feb 8, 6 11:01:13 pm Message-ID: > > Sadder are things of value not offered on eBay, > and just thrown in the trash. And please renmember that things most people consider to be trash may well be useful for restoring vintage computers. A defective cirucit board may either be repairable, or may yield an otherwise hard-to-find chip. As an example, I am looking for a couple of a particualr Sony 3.5" disk drive (I can look up the model number). I don't care about the condition of the heads. I don't care if the chips are blown. I don't care if the PCB is cracked. What I need, actually, are the plastic front panels and eject buttons. These drives were used in an Acorn filestore unit, I have 2 drives from other Acorn machines where they were used without panels and buttons (the computer case mouldings provided the disk slot, etc). Yes I could use any 720K drive, but I like to keep hardware as original as possible... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 9 16:10:43 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 22:10:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: <63030.195.212.29.67.1139469592.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> from "gordonjcp@gjcp.net" at Feb 9, 6 07:19:52 am Message-ID: > I remember seeing blue LEDs in a catalogue in the late 80s - the listing > said something like "BLUE LEDs! Yes, *BLUE* =A330 (that's right, 30 quid)= > " I remember wehn Maplin started selling blue LEDs. The 5mm one was about \pounds 11. I was at Bristol University at the time, and Maplin in Bristol had a reasonable stock of compoennts back then. I bought the first blue LED they got in, took it back to the lab and powered it up (bench supply + suitanble resistor). I rememebr half the Physics Depeartment coming to look at it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 9 16:25:36 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 22:25:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Date on STK7551 regulator? Message-ID: Does anyone have, or know of a source of, data on the STK7551? This is a hybrid circuit, designed to mount onto a heatsink. It's got 16 (or so) connectons on oen edge, which are soldered to the PCB. What I know : It's a voltage regulator. It says so on the package. It's used in the Epson TF20 disk drive power supply, where it outputs +5V and +12V. It's clearly a dual regulator, and I uspect it's a switcher. What I would like is at least a pinout, and preferably even more data (Please don't send anything but plain text to me here, if you've got images, or pdfs, or something, contact me, and I'll give you an address to sned them to. Thanks!) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 9 16:21:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 22:21:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: <004101c62db7$abc11260$6601a8c0@barry> from "Barry Watzman" at Feb 9, 6 03:30:30 pm Message-ID: > > > > Wrong. Blue (and White) LEDs are a relatively recent invention. I'm not > sure when they first came into existence, but it was WAY after 1991; it was > closer to or even after 2000, although it might have been in the very late > 1990's. White LEDs were even later. There were 3 color LEDs in 1991, but > not RGB. I bought a blue LED while I was doing my Ph.D. at Bristol (this would therefore be before 1995). And that was from a hobbyist shop, in 1-off quanities. It wouldn't suprise me that they were around a couple of years before I got mine. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 9 16:36:32 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 15:36:32 -0700 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <200602041143.42115.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20060202132140.051c1420@mail.30below.com> <43E4C94A.6000008@gmail.com> <200602041143.42115.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <43EBC3F0.3020007@jetnet.ab.ca> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >If it had some distance-finding radar/sonar, and a parachute, as standard >equipment, then it probably could (or was just shaped appropriately). > >Pat > > I suspect King Kong would catch any puters dropped instead. From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Feb 9 16:37:54 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 17:37:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060209223754.8FC4F58166@mail.wordstock.com> > > I remember wehn Maplin started selling blue LEDs. The 5mm one was about > \pounds 11. I was at Bristol University at the time, and Maplin in > Bristol had a reasonable stock of compoennts back then. I bought the > first blue LED they got in, took it back to the lab and powered it up > (bench supply + suitanble resistor). I rememebr half the Physics > Depeartment coming to look at it... > I think they would be saying "oooh" and "aaah" just like the green aliens from Toy Story... :D Cheers, Bryan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 9 16:41:04 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 22:41:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: GPIB-to-USB In-Reply-To: <200602091406410351.778EDA56@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 9, 6 02:06:41 pm Message-ID: > > I know that there are a number of HP enthusiasts here. This item was in > the current EDN online and I thought it might interest someone: > > http://www.edn.com/article/CA6290453.html?spacedesc=designideas >From the subject: line, I asusme this is a device to link GPIB peripherals to a USB host, and not the much more useful (to me) interface to link USB peripherals to an HPIB controller... -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 9 16:48:15 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:48:15 +0000 Subject: Revisited: Re: Unix on BBC micro with 16032 coprocessor In-Reply-To: <2ddaa6ea0510081032jd142dfej@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ddaa6ea0510081032jd142dfej@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43EBC6AF.4060904@yahoo.co.uk> Pete Hollobon wrote: > Does anyone know if Xenix / Unix were ever available on the NS 16032 second > processor for the BBC micro? I remember reading that it was intended to be > made available in the user's guide years ago. > > Pete Revisiting this thread from October last year... I've just been digging out some PANOS-related floppies that I got from an ex-Acorn employee last year, with a view to imaging them in the next few days and seeing what's on them (potentially interesting things like the actual sources to PANOS, going by disk labels) The relevant bit to this thread though is that there's also a floppy labelled "XENIX discussion document", which might shed some light on where Acorn were going with a 32016 port of XENIX... (the floppy looks to be in good physical condition - no guarantee that it is what it says it is, hasn't been wiped, still has readable data on it, isn't in some totally obscure format etc.) Watch this space... (To Graham Toal: I know you were asking about source to Acorn's 32016-resident compilers; I'll let you know if I spot anything relevant) cheers Jules From mokuba at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 17:17:06 2006 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:17:06 -0500 Subject: sad ebay listing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bering straights land bridge! On 2/9/06 3:45 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> >> I saw a calculator listing just now that said >> >> "turned it on, it glowed a minute, now it only glows green on the screen" > > However many times we sau that applying power is the _last_ thing to do > (in other words, check over the machine first, at least a visual > inspection, and run the PSU on dummy load), people still do it. > > At least in this case it's unlikely the machine is irrepairable. > >> >> "I'm not going to try to fix it"... > > I guess we should be thankful for that. Anyone who plugs in an old > machine without checking it over first is not likely to be that good at > repairing it. > > >> >> THANK YOU. >> >> I'm not listing numbers so I don't get sued, but it isn't hard to find. > > If it's the machine I think it is (a Friden), the listing is inconsistent > anyway. He says he'll ship to Europe (it shows up in ebay.co.uk, for > example), but says in the description that he won't ship overseas. I am > wondering how you get it to Europe without going overseas ;-) > > -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 9 18:04:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:04:32 -0800 Subject: Date on STK7551 regulator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602091604320102.77FABC37@10.0.0.252> Tony, The 7551/7552/7553 are all discontinued, but I believe the replacements are part of the STK755-xxx series. Here's the datasheet (in Japanese) for the 755-110, which outputs +12 and +5. Maybe this will help... Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Feb 9 18:19:21 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:19:21 -0600 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware Message-ID: <43EBDC09.2080203@oldskool.org> I finally got a chance to try the Silicon Valley Computer ADP50L (an 8-bit ISA IDE controller) in my IBM 5160 and I have to say, I love the thing and want to put it to full active use. My problem is, how do I properly mount a "modern" (3.5" half-height) hard drive into the case? Looking at the existing ST-225 that's currently in there, it has much larger dimensions so that it not only reaches the screw holes on the side of the case, but for additional stability has the front faceplate directly screwed onto it as well. It's in there pretty tight. I can remove it, but how do I put my 340MB smaller drive in it's place? I know I could just lay it down gingerly and try not to move the case, but I've got kids and wouldn't want an accident to damage the drive (or worse, damage the innards if the drive goes flying into the center of the machine). Any ideas? Is there a safe, non-flammable, non-disintegrating material I can use to wedge it in perhaps? (ick) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 9 18:19:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:19:55 -0800 Subject: sad ebay listing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602091619550171.7808D206@10.0.0.252> On 2/9/2006 at 8:51 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >And please renmember that things most people consider to be trash may >well be useful for restoring vintage computers. A defective cirucit board >may either be repairable, or may yield an otherwise hard-to-find chip. Consider the big picture--there are folks who collect everything from barbed wire to bottlecaps. I once knew a fellow who collected Mrs> Butterworth's Syrup bottles (they all looked the same to me, but he said there were significant differences and he had hundreds). It's entirely likely that I've recycled barbed wire or tossed a bottlecap in the trash that some collector would have given his eyeteeth for. I used to run into old glass power-line insulators all the time when I was clearing brush--I threw them away or gave them to neighbors who used them as something pretty to put in the garden. I didn't know that there were avid collectors out there. To most folks, an old computer is just that. Don't blame them for throwing them into the landfill. On the other hand, many disposal authorities now demand that you take your old electronics gear to a specialy recycler (who will usually charge a fee to take something off your hands). That's good--not many people will spend money to throw something away. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 9 18:20:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:20:37 -0800 Subject: Date on STK7551 regulator? In-Reply-To: <200602091604320102.77FABC37@10.0.0.252> References: <200602091604320102.77FABC37@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200602091620370541.78097789@10.0.0.252> On 2/9/2006 at 4:04 PM Chuck Guzis wrote: Here's the datasheet (in Japanese) for the 755-110, which outputs +12 and +5. http://www.datasheetarchive.com/semiconductors/download.php?Datasheet=200810 2 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 9 18:30:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:30:23 -0800 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: <43EBDC09.2080203@oldskool.org> References: <43EBDC09.2080203@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200602091630230231.7812676F@10.0.0.252> On 2/9/2006 at 6:19 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >I finally got a chance to try the Silicon Valley Computer ADP50L (an >8-bit ISA IDE controller) in my IBM 5160 and I have to say, I love the >thing and want to put it to full active use. My problem is, how do I >properly mount a "modern" (3.5" half-height) hard drive into the case? Why not use a 3.5"-5.25" floppy mounting adapter? They shouldn't be hard to find. If you lacked a filler plate of the correct size for the bezel, you could always cut out a sheet of tinted acrylic or ABS to do the job. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 9 18:30:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 00:30:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: sad ebay listing In-Reply-To: <200602091619550171.7808D206@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 9, 6 04:19:55 pm Message-ID: > > On 2/9/2006 at 8:51 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >And please renmember that things most people consider to be trash may > >well be useful for restoring vintage computers. A defective cirucit board > >may either be repairable, or may yield an otherwise hard-to-find chip. > > Consider the big picture--there are folks who collect everything from > barbed wire to bottlecaps. I once knew a fellow who collected Mrs> Sure. I try to find homes for stuff I don't want but I know others do (an example would be the original boxes for computers, etc -- I have no interest in those, I know people who like them). But I am sure I've thrown out stuff that somebody, somewhere, wants. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 9 18:31:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:31:08 -0800 Subject: GPIB-to-USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602091631080586.7813189A@10.0.0.252> On 2/9/2006 at 10:41 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >>From the subject: line, I asusme this is a device to link GPIB >peripherals to a USB host, and not the much more useful (to me) interface >to link USB peripherals to an HPIB controller... Well, yes--that would be the most useful direction to MOST people! From menadeau at comcast.net Thu Feb 9 18:34:20 2006 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 19:34:20 -0500 Subject: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? References: <000601c62da1$875a3b60$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <008701c62dd9$bbf38650$6401a8c0@Mike> The Safari was indeed an interesting 386 system. It had a built-in messaging system that some say is the forerunner of the Blackberry. It was also one of the most visually pleasing systems with a sculpted look and aqua-colored trim on a dark grey case. If I remember correctly, it was developed out of Bell Labs in NJ. That's where the product group was located and where I got a preview of it when I was at BYTE. Of course, this was AT&T--cool technology, terrible marketing. The Safari was sold for only a short time, and I doubt many survive. ----- Original Message ----- From: "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 12:51 PM Subject: RE: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? > Michael N. once told me that his manuscript actually included 1,200 > systems > but the publisher cut it to 700. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 8:24 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: What is an "AT&T 345i Safari"? > > > In article <20060209030920.10050.qmail at web31814.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, > Computer Collector Newsletter writes: > >> [...] I am 99% sure it's just a not-too-interesting 386 laptop. > > Collectible Microcomputers claims it has some interest :-) > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 9 18:34:54 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 16:34:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: sad ebay listing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060209163330.G14136@shell.lmi.net> > On 2/9/06 3:45 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: > > If it's the machine I think it is (a Friden), the listing is inconsistent > > anyway. He says he'll ship to Europe (it shows up in ebay.co.uk, for > > example), but says in the description that he won't ship overseas. I am > > wondering how you get it to Europe without going overseas ;-) To get from England to europe, without going overseas, couldn't you go UNDERseas through the tunnel? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 9 18:35:51 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 00:35:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Date on STK7551 regulator? In-Reply-To: <200602091604320102.77FABC37@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 9, 6 04:04:32 pm Message-ID: > > Tony, > > The 7551/7552/7553 are all discontinued, but I believe the replacements are That does not suprise me. The Epson TF20 floppy drive (which is where I came across it) must be at least 20 years old now. Fortunately, all the chips on the cotnroller board are recognisable (some are almost certainly discontinued, but common -- rows of 74LSxx TTL, a Z80A, 8 off 4164 DRAMs, a 2716, a 765 disck controller, etc) > part of the STK755-xxx series. Here's the datasheet (in Japanese) for the > 755-110, which outputs +12 and +5. Where? Did you forget the URL? The PSU board in the TF20 contains this hybrid, a bridge rectifier/smoothing capacitor (takes in 24V AC from a transfromer on the main chassis), a few smaller capactiors, 4 torroidal inductors (looks to be an energy storage inductor and a filter for each output), 2 of what look to be snubber networks (diode, resistor, small capacitor) and a couple more resistors and a zennr. The last makes me wonder if the output voltage of the 7551 can be set by external compoennts. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 9 18:41:00 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 00:41:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: <43EBDC09.2080203@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Feb 9, 6 06:19:21 pm Message-ID: > > I finally got a chance to try the Silicon Valley Computer ADP50L (an > 8-bit ISA IDE controller) in my IBM 5160 and I have to say, I love the > thing and want to put it to full active use. My problem is, how do I > properly mount a "modern" (3.5" half-height) hard drive into the case? > > Looking at the existing ST-225 that's currently in there, it has much > larger dimensions so that it not only reaches the screw holes on the > side of the case, but for additional stability has the front faceplate > directly screwed onto it as well. It's in there pretty tight. I can > remove it, but how do I put my 340MB smaller drive in it's place? Untill not too long ago (and maybe still if you hunt for them) you could get adapter kits to mount 3.5" devices in 5.25" (half height) bays. You either got a chassis or 2 U-shapped channels to fit the device onto and which would then have tapped holes to line up with the original mouting holse in the case. The kits for floppy drives also included a front bezel, a signal cable adapter (fitted on the 34 pin header plug of the drive, took the edge connector on the cable) and a power cable adapter. If oyou can find such a kit, you could use it to fix the drive in place with the original screws. As regards the front panel, either make something from scratch, or take the panel off the old hard drive (a couple of screws) and make up brackets to fix it to the adapter chassis. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 9 18:49:18 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 00:49:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: GPIB-to-USB In-Reply-To: <200602091631080586.7813189A@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 9, 6 04:31:08 pm Message-ID: > > > On 2/9/2006 at 10:41 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >>From the subject: line, I asusme this is a device to link GPIB > >peripherals to a USB host, and not the much more useful (to me) interface > >to link USB peripherals to an HPIB controller... > > Well, yes--that would be the most useful direction to MOST people! But this is classiccmp.... I have many machines, even pocket-sized machines, which can act as HPIB controllers. I haev nothing that can take a USB port (and you must admit if you could design something to work the other way, even for a limited subest of USB peripherals, there would be a certain hack value in having a USB-capable HP9830...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 9 18:51:48 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 00:51:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: sad ebay listing In-Reply-To: <20060209163330.G14136@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 9, 6 04:34:54 pm Message-ID: > > > On 2/9/06 3:45 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: > > > If it's the machine I think it is (a Friden), the listing is inconsistent > > > anyway. He says he'll ship to Europe (it shows up in ebay.co.uk, for > > > example), but says in the description that he won't ship overseas. I am > > > wondering how you get it to Europe without going overseas ;-) > > To get from England to europe, without going overseas, > couldn't you go UNDERseas through the tunnel? :-). One semi-serious question. Given that this item showed up in the listings on ebay.co.uk (which, as I understand it, is only supposed to list items available to the UK), and given that the summary specifies he will ship to Europe, even though the description says he won't, what would happen if I bid on, and won, that item? I assume he couldn't demand I pay for it and receive nothing. (Don't worry, I don't intend to bid on it, I am just curious) -tony From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Thu Feb 9 19:00:19 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J. Blaser) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 18:00:19 -0700 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: <200602100022.k1A0Lvm7032228@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200602100022.k1A0Lvm7032228@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43EBE5A3.8090709@rogerwilco.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > I finally got a chance to try the Silicon Valley Computer ADP50L (an > 8-bit ISA IDE controller) in my IBM 5160 and I have to say, I love the > thing and want to put it to full active use. My problem is, how do I > properly mount a "modern" (3.5" half-height) hard drive into the case? > ... > Any ideas? Is there a safe, non-flammable, non-disintegrating material > I can use to wedge it in perhaps? (ick) There are mounting brackets available to allow one to mount a 3-1/2" devide in a 5-1/4" wide bay for modern PCs. Seems that this trick should also work with your 5160. The brackets add 'width' to the smaller drive and provide mounting holes on the outer dimension where they would normally be expected for a real 5-1/4" device. You can buy these kits, but you might actually be able to pick some up free from a local recycler. J From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Feb 9 19:47:38 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 17:47:38 -0800 Subject: sad ebay listing In-Reply-To: <200602091619550171.7808D206@10.0.0.252> References: <200602091619550171.7808D206@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43EBF0BA.3020303@msm.umr.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 2/9/2006 at 8:51 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > > I worry now that monitors and systems are being considered both toxic waste, and that people are starting to fear what may be on their disk drives when they discard them, so for both reasons, bad things happen to hardware that would be collectable. you usually don't get anyone wanting to properly prepare obsolete systems for disposal with any care, so ripping out the hard drive and powering it or otherwise horribly damaging it and the system is happening more and more. Also, unless someone pulls systems out of service with the possiblity that they may be scrounged for parts, the care is even worse overall. Also no one ever seems to realize when they do recycle that those boxes of software and manuals may be more valuable than the systems themselves. anyway, hopefully someone can get this calculator running again. It has many nice things for it's time, with the delay line memory, and the CRT being pretty advanced for their time. Also that it is RPN is interesting, considering that it was sold as a business device at the time. I lucked into a pile before a guy sold them to local hams for scrounging the 5" crt for ham shack duty, and still have 2 or 3 around. The crt system was actually a dropin as a module, and could be pulled from the calculator and used as an X-Y indicator or whatever quite easily (so I'm told), so many went that way, and were lost. Jim From bob099 at centurytel.net Thu Feb 9 20:31:49 2006 From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Choctaw Bob) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:31:49 -0600 Subject: LEGO Difference Engine Message-ID: <43EBFB15.2090708@centurytel.net> Building A Calculating Machine Using LEGO http://acarol.woz.org/ If you want something different. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Feb 9 21:13:11 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 21:13:11 -0600 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: <200602091630230231.7812676F@10.0.0.252> References: <43EBDC09.2080203@oldskool.org> <200602091630230231.7812676F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43EC04C7.7030705@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Why not use a 3.5"-5.25" floppy mounting adapter? They shouldn't be hard > to find. If you lacked a filler plate of the correct size for the bezel, > you could always cut out a sheet of tinted acrylic or ABS to do the job. I have no idea where to get a sheet of acrylic let alone know how to cut it :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Feb 9 21:18:38 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 21:18:38 -0600 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: <43EBE5A3.8090709@rogerwilco.org> References: <200602100022.k1A0Lvm7032228@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43EBE5A3.8090709@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <43EC060E.4030404@oldskool.org> J. Blaser wrote: > There are mounting brackets available to allow one to mount a 3-1/2" > devide in a 5-1/4" wide bay for modern PCs. I thought of this, but I haven't seen a pair of those for over a decade. > You can buy these kits, but you might actually be able to pick some up > free from a local recycler. Don't have local recyclers here (southwestern suburb of Chicago). Where can I order one? The only place I can think of is JDR... Hey, they have them! http://www.jdr.com/interact/item.asp?itemno=GR-MHW Thanks! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jcwren at jcwren.com Thu Feb 9 21:24:31 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:24:31 -0500 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: <43EC04C7.7030705@oldskool.org> References: <43EBDC09.2080203@oldskool.org> <200602091630230231.7812676F@10.0.0.252> <43EC04C7.7030705@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43EC076F.70401@jcwren.com> Lowes / Home Depot. With a router. Also available at Lowes / Home Depot. --jc Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Why not use a 3.5"-5.25" floppy mounting adapter? They shouldn't be >> hard >> to find. If you lacked a filler plate of the correct size for the >> bezel, >> you could always cut out a sheet of tinted acrylic or ABS to do the job. > > I have no idea where to get a sheet of acrylic let alone know how to > cut it :-) From mokuba at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 21:28:18 2006 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:28:18 -0500 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: <43EC060E.4030404@oldskool.org> Message-ID: I've got a few sets of these, if you or anyone else wants the brackets. On 2/9/06 10:18 PM, "Jim Leonard" wrote: > J. Blaser wrote: >> There are mounting brackets available to allow one to mount a 3-1/2" >> devide in a 5-1/4" wide bay for modern PCs. > > I thought of this, but I haven't seen a pair of those for over a decade. > >> You can buy these kits, but you might actually be able to pick some up >> free from a local recycler. > > Don't have local recyclers here (southwestern suburb of Chicago). Where > can I order one? The only place I can think of is JDR... Hey, they have > them! http://www.jdr.com/interact/item.asp?itemno=GR-MHW > Thanks! From jcwren at jcwren.com Thu Feb 9 21:32:24 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:32:24 -0500 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: <43EC060E.4030404@oldskool.org> References: <200602100022.k1A0Lvm7032228@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43EBE5A3.8090709@rogerwilco.org> <43EC060E.4030404@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43EC0948.2010208@jcwren.com> Cyberguys.com has these brackets, and they're cheap. I've also seen them in CompUSA, Microcenter and Frys. --jc Jim Leonard wrote: > J. Blaser wrote: >> There are mounting brackets available to allow one to mount a 3-1/2" >> devide in a 5-1/4" wide bay for modern PCs. > > I thought of this, but I haven't seen a pair of those for over a decade. > >> You can buy these kits, but you might actually be able to pick some >> up free from a local recycler. > > Don't have local recyclers here (southwestern suburb of Chicago). > Where can I order one? The only place I can think of is JDR... Hey, > they have them! http://www.jdr.com/interact/item.asp?itemno=GR-MHW > Thanks! From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Feb 9 21:41:55 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 22:41:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Truely Ancient 2400 Baud Modems, last call! Message-ID: The big cleanup continues, and these damn grey boxes are in the way. The grey boxes in question are a bunch of rackmount Western Electric 102B (or is it 201B?) modems, ex Goddard Space Flight Center. Apparently these handled encrypted voice and data, and perhaps some AUTODIN traffic. These are mostly 1967 builds, maybe a few from 1966. Getting 2400 baud thru a phone line back then required a foot tall section of rack space (21 inch!) full of cards stuffed with transistors. I have tried to sell these things, but they apparently belong in the lead balloon department. Being Western Electric from the good ole' days, these are dripping with gold, so I really need to get $50 a piece. So this is the last call. If you are interested, let me know, else they get scrapped. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Feb 9 22:03:05 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 22:03:05 -0600 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: <43EC0948.2010208@jcwren.com> References: <200602100022.k1A0Lvm7032228@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43EBE5A3.8090709@rogerwilco.org> <43EC060E.4030404@oldskool.org> <43EC0948.2010208@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <43EC1079.3020704@oldskool.org> Sure enough: http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/searchdetail.asp?T1=161+0410&dept=&search=&child= Thanks guys! J.C. Wren wrote: > Cyberguys.com has these brackets, and they're cheap. I've also seen > them in CompUSA, Microcenter and Frys. > > --jc > > Jim Leonard wrote: > >> J. Blaser wrote: >> >>> There are mounting brackets available to allow one to mount a 3-1/2" >>> devide in a 5-1/4" wide bay for modern PCs. >> >> >> I thought of this, but I haven't seen a pair of those for over a decade. >> >>> You can buy these kits, but you might actually be able to pick some >>> up free from a local recycler. >> >> >> Don't have local recyclers here (southwestern suburb of Chicago). >> Where can I order one? The only place I can think of is JDR... Hey, >> they have them! http://www.jdr.com/interact/item.asp?itemno=GR-MHW >> Thanks! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 9 22:31:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:31:37 -0800 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: <43EC04C7.7030705@oldskool.org> References: <43EBDC09.2080203@oldskool.org> <200602091630230231.7812676F@10.0.0.252> <43EC04C7.7030705@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200602092031370380.78EF4155@10.0.0.252> n 2/9/2006 at 9:13 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >I have no idea where to get a sheet of acrylic let alone know how to cut >it :-) Look in the yellow pages under "Plastics". Cut it with a fine-toothed hacksaw. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 9 22:33:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:33:08 -0800 Subject: Truely Ancient 2400 Baud Modems, last call! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602092033080820.78F0A687@10.0.0.252> On 2/9/2006 at 10:41 PM William Donzelli wrote: >I have tried to sell these things, but they apparently belong in the lead >balloon department. Being Western Electric from the good ole' days, these >are dripping with gold, so I really need to get $50 a piece. So this is >the last call. If you are interested, let me know, else they get scrapped. IIRC, the really good modems back then were made by Milgo. From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Feb 9 22:37:57 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 23:37:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Truely Ancient 2400 Baud Modems, last call! In-Reply-To: <200602092033080820.78F0A687@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > IIRC, the really good modems back then were made by Milgo. DO NOT BLASPHEME THE GREAT WESTERN ELECTRIC! William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Feb 9 23:22:16 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 23:22:16 -0600 Subject: Truely Ancient 2400 Baud Modems, last call! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43EC2308.5060209@oldskool.org> William Donzelli wrote: >>IIRC, the really good modems back then were made by Milgo. > > DO NOT BLASPHEME THE GREAT WESTERN ELECTRIC! This was a "shoot soda out my nose" laugh-out-loud moment! Never saw it coming. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Feb 10 00:53:22 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 06:53:22 -0000 Subject: GPIB-to-USB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00ec01c62e0e$b0912580$5b01a8c0@pc1> Tony Duell wrote: > But this is classiccmp.... It's still useful to many people. I have no idea whether I could hang a PET 4040 drive off this thing, but it would be useful if I could. > I have many machines, even pocket-sized machines, which can act as > HPIB controllers. I haev nothing that can take a USB port Again, _most_ people might be a bit different! > (and you must admit if you could design something to work the other > way, even for a limited subest of USB peripherals, there would be a > certain hack value in having a USB-capable HP9830...) Absolutely. I've not looked at this project in detail but it does seem to be "open" so it may be easy to either "turn it around" or, better yet, make it "work both ways". Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Feb 10 01:16:40 2006 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:16:40 +0100 (MET) Subject: pro-350 dumpster dive Message-ID: <7136.1139555800@www047.gmx.net> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 2/9/2006 at 8:11 AM Arno Kletzander wrote: > > >Note on dumpsters on private property: > >Over here in Europe you often only have to ring the bell and ask and > >you get invited to help yourself to whatever you want from there - > >that's how it usually works for me. > > Many of the larger firms (read: the ones with really good stuff > to throw out) employ a hydraulic compactor to reduce the volume of > trash. They're already throwing out *organic* computers?! ;-) (I've never seen such a device used over here for trash containing anything harder than maybe plastic in big chunks. Mainly just for paper, cardboard packing boxes and styrofoam.) Come to think of it, I don't remember ever seeing one "in the wild" anywhere. They only have them at the communal recycling centers. Therefore, my above comment was only targeting plain old metal dumpsters without any "life of their own", and I thought clearly so. > I cannot imagine for one second any facilities person allowing you > near such a device. That's damn sure, and not such a bad idea in itself, unless one believes in Darwin's Law above all else. Then again, what's in there is not very likely to be of use any more. > Most of the really good equipment that I've seen people get was > done by arrangement with the facilities staff to have the > aforementioned goodie mysteriously disappear off the loading dock > before hitting the dumpster. A little cash can sometimes result > in great favors. That may be the better way (saving some damage to the equipment), but how often does stuff get hauled out before the dumpster arrives? Not very often in the places I frequent. Cheers, Chuck -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Telefonieren Sie schon oder sparen Sie noch? NEU: GMX Phone_Flat http://www.gmx.net/de/go/telefonie From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Feb 10 01:28:11 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 07:28:11 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: References: <004101c62db7$abc11260$6601a8c0@barry> from "Barry Watzman" at Feb 9, 6 03:30:30 pm Message-ID: <2605.195.212.29.67.1139556491.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> >> >> >> >> Wrong. Blue (and White) LEDs are a relatively recent invention. I'm >> not >> sure when they first came into existence, but it was WAY after 1991; it >> was >> closer to or even after 2000, although it might have been in the very >> late >> 1990's. White LEDs were even later. There were 3 color LEDs in 1991, >> but >> not RGB. > > I bought a blue LED while I was doing my Ph.D. at Bristol (this would > therefore be before 1995). And that was from a hobbyist shop, in 1-off > quanities. It wouldn't suprise me that they were around a couple of years > before I got mine. > > -tony They were *definitely* in electronics catalogues (I wish I could remember which one - Birkit? Not Bi-Pak, certainly) in the late 80s/early 90s. As I said earlier, I distinctly remember seeing one in the catalogue I was reading on the way to school, and I left school in early 1991... Furthermore it was before we moved house when I was in 5th year, which potentially makes it 1989. Gordon. From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Feb 10 01:42:28 2006 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 23:42:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old Apple computer magazines, books for you Message-ID: <20060210074228.91689.qmail@web34105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Do not contact me (Steven), please contact: Addison Phillips wrote: I have a may 1987 byte magazine, vol 12 no 5 here that I want to get rid of . I also have quite a few issues of incider, and nibble, not to mention tons of appleII programming books. In Tampa Florida. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 9 14:34:02 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 15:34:02 -0500 Subject: VCF East 3.0 -- prices and times are now final Message-ID: <004b01c62db8$2b98e2b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Our club, MARCH (Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists), is now announcing the prices and times for VCF East 3.0: General public admission: Adults -- $10 13 and under -- $7 Hours: Sat. 9:30AM-6:00PM ------------------- Consignment area: - $1 to be included / First-come, first-served (limited space) - 20% of sale goes to MARCH / 80% goes to seller - Anything unclaimed becomes a MARCH donation ------------------- Exhibitor fees: Standard booth (approx. 6x8 ft.): MARCH members -- $20 Non-members -- $25 Extra-large booth (limited availability) MARCH members - $30 Non-members -- $35 Included for all exhibitor booths: basic 110V power, one t-shirt, a 2x6-ft. table, and dinner (pizza etc.) Friday set-up -- 3PM - 8PM / Saturday set-up -- 7AM-9AM Exhibitor / VIP dinner -- Sat. 7PM ------------------ Lectures will run all day long. Questions / Special requests: please email me at evank at marchclub.org (NOT at my newsletter address) ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From bill_mcdermith at mcdermith.net Thu Feb 9 17:23:47 2006 From: bill_mcdermith at mcdermith.net (Bill McDermith) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:23:47 -0700 Subject: GPIB-to-USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43EBCF03.5080108@mcdermith.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> I know that there are a number of HP enthusiasts here. This item was in >> the current EDN online and I thought it might interest someone: >> >> http://www.edn.com/article/CA6290453.html?spacedesc=designideas >> > > >From the subject: line, I asusme this is a device to link GPIB > peripherals to a USB host, and not the much more useful (to me) interface > to link USB peripherals to an HPIB controller... > > -tony > Well, the article looked like they used 75160/75161 as the GPIB bus driver pair. IIRC, if you used 75160/75162, then the HPIB side could be a bus controller. Of course, the hardware here is very simple, and all the smarts are in the microcontroller, so though a "Simple Matter Of Programming" you could have commands from the HPIB going on to USB peripherals or reverse with the original hardware, or you could have a master on the HPIB bus with the other driver chip... One interesting point is that with the new USB-enabled microcontrollers, you could make the solution even smaller... Philips, ST Micro, and Fujitsu all have fairly capable microcontrollers with and ARM-7 core, flash, sram, several parallel I/O ports, and a USB2.0 compatible controller on the die, that would be pretty handy for this sort of application. (The USB2.0 interface on the current batch of chips is USB2.0 _compatible_, but won't run in the fast mode, so you still only get 12MBPS) Bill From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 9 18:16:30 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 16:16:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP150-II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060210001630.97443.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> > [1] What a kludge. The 150-II has an 8088 on the > mainboard, used in > 'minimum mode', which means some of the coprocessor > signals are not > available. The coprocessor card contains an 8088 in > 'maximum mode', the > 8087 and some interface logic. It disables the 8088 > on the mainboard.... what's the purpose of the coprocessor card (other then adapting an 8087 to the system)? Is the 2nd 8088 only there so that an 8087 CAN be accomodated (a min mode 8088 disallows any other processors on the bus)? A kludge indeed, but an expensive one if I managed to make any sense of the scheme. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cctech at porky.vax-11.org Thu Feb 9 22:09:26 2006 From: cctech at porky.vax-11.org (cctech at porky.vax-11.org) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 21:09:26 -0700 (MST) Subject: LEGO Difference Engine In-Reply-To: <43EBFB15.2090708@centurytel.net> References: <43EBFB15.2090708@centurytel.net> Message-ID: Way cool.... On Thu, 9 Feb 2006, Choctaw Bob wrote: > > Building A Calculating Machine Using LEGO > > http://acarol.woz.org/ > > If you want something different. > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 10 00:53:36 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2006 22:53:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sirius 1 (aka Victor 9000) on Ebay (UK) Message-ID: <20060210065337.95399.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> what you get someone whos got everything else. Or at least every other IBM incompatible on the planet (ok Im not quite there). Also a must for the truly masochistic (gcr floppies). What every guru/sicko needs. Alas the shipping is prohibitive if youre on this side of the pond. --- Free_Software_for_DOS at yahoogroups.com wrote: > > I don't know if there is a mirror... But I have tried > downloading the files again and it works! Try > downloading later. By the way, the program is just a > much more functional version of GS which is already on > the Free Software For DOS website. > > Denis > > > > Short Stop's Pages : > > > On 9 Feb 2006 Denis Andrianov wrote (snipped): > > > > > Tja, hier habe ich geplant, andere Programme zu > stellen, die > > > eventuell von Nutzen sind. Die kriegen allerdings > keine technische > > > Unterstützung* von mir. Aber ich freue mich > auf Bescheid, wie > > > das Programm bei dir funktioniert hat... and bugs, too! > > > > :) I recognized that broken German text, because... > > > > > Hi everyone. It has been very quiet lately on this > > > mailing list. Anyway, here is something interesting. A > > > new (2005) port of Ghostscript is now available for > > > DOS. ............ Please > > > add this link to the Free Software for DOS site: > > > http://www.caddit.net/programming.php. > > > > ... I've visited that site repeatedly since December, > and tried to > > download the Ghostscript binary and source packages, > but no luck - the > > server stops serving. I know for sure that's the > problem, because I get > > > > its timeout message, appended to the part of the ZIP > file that actually > > > > comes down the pipe. > > > > So until that problem gets fixed, and I can look the > program over, I > > can't recommend it in the Free Software pages. > > > > Denis - do you know if there is another download site? > > > > Peace, > > Steve @ Short.Stop > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Free_Software_for_DOS/ > > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > Free_Software_for_DOS-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com > > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 10 02:22:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 00:22:40 -0800 Subject: Sirius 1 (aka Victor 9000) on Ebay (UK) In-Reply-To: <20060210065337.95399.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060210065337.95399.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200602100022400573.79C2C821@10.0.0.252> On 2/9/2006 at 10:53 PM Chris M wrote: >what you get someone whos got everything else. Or at >least every other IBM incompatible on the planet (ok >Im not quite there). Also a must for the truly >masochistic (gcr floppies). What every guru/sicko >needs. Alas the shipping is prohibitive if youre on >this side of the pond. What tickles my sense of irony was that when it started up, Victor began harrassing small businesses that had similar names. IIRC, under threat of legal action, they actually forced a retailer who'd been doing business as Victor Electronics for 20 years to change his business name. Victor got a fair amount of press when it started up--but didn't last long...and then it fizzled. From roosmcd at dds.nl Fri Feb 10 03:30:49 2006 From: roosmcd at dds.nl (roosmcd at dds.nl) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:30:49 +0100 Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: <200602100022.k1A0LvmH032228@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200602100022.k1A0LvmH032228@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1139563849.43ec5d4983f4e@webmail.dds.nl> Hello, Not sure if this link was already mentioned in the LED thread: http://ledmuseum.home.att.net/1990.htm Lots of other led information on the site about new and old leds. And I take it you've already contacted the manufacturers of RGB leds? They could have know where there products were used or developed a product demo display. greetings, Michiel From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Feb 10 03:31:28 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:31:28 +0100 Subject: Original 11/74 front panel In-Reply-To: <200602100022.k1A0LvmI032228@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200602100022.k1A0LvmI032228@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43EC5D70.8040002@update.uu.se> Don North wrote: Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> "Julian Wolfe (FireflyST)" wrote: >>> >> >>>>> Okay, what I immediately noticed is that these machines say "MP" and >>>>> Don's panel doesn't. >> >>> More differences: Don's panel have the location for the key moved to >>> the other side of the parity lamps. Which is rather weird. >>> Also, the screenprint of 11/74 looks shadowed, which is weird. And the >>> right hand side have a different color than the left hand side. >>> And of course, the 11/74s from Tim don't have any CIS stuff on the >>> front panel. > > Besides moving the keyswitch, the dial selector knobs on the righthand > side were moved around as well to make space to label all the extra > switch positions. > > As I mentioned in another reply, the artifacts are due to scanning the > panel on a 14" flatbed scanner in two pieces, and merging the scans. > When I get around to it I'll take a high quality single-view photograph. Yes, I saw that. Well, that explains those artifacts. It would definitely by nice if you could take a good photo of it at some time. >>> (I'm still thinking that Don's panel have never had a matching piece >>> of real hardware, since I don't think that CPU was ever built.) > > I can only say that I worked on real 11/74 hardware in 1978-9 writing > microcode for the 11/74 CIS (commercial instruction set) accelerator > (packed decimal, string instructions, etc). See http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/Prelim_KB11-E_Diffs_Aug78.pdf > for a memo written by Ray Boucher, one of the hardware designers (Al, > how did you ever come across a memo such as this???). The other hardware > designed was Mike Brown. The other microcoders were Dave Sager and Lewis > Costas. The project manager was Dave Barry. How much more do you need to > know? Ok. I'm conviced. :-) Thanks, by the way for clearing that up. > Not a lot of 11/74 CIS systems were built, probably no more than a dozen > or so maximum. The 11/74 folded in the 11/70MP changes which had been > done about a year earlier, so an 11/74 was really an 11/70MP base plus > the CIS option. Later when the 11/74 CIS was killed as a product, the > 11/74 name lived on, but it was strictly a renamed version of the 11/70MP. Wonderful that some were really built. Were they every used for anything, or were they just built to prove it worked, and then cancelled? What happened to those machines? Hmm, you raised a new question in my mind. I have always been under the impression that the 11/74 designation was for the MP system, but here you seem to imply that the 11/74 was really the 11/70 with CIS, and the moniker was actually only taken over by the MP system after the 11/70 CIS was cancelled. Is that correctly understood? If so, that's interesting. Do you know why they cancelled it? (Well, I could guess that the CIS really didn't turn out to be something customers asked for, especially not after the VAX started rolling, but anyway...) >>>>> Were there non-multiprocessor 11/74s? If so, what would have been >>>>> the benefits over 11/70s? >> >>> >>> Yes there were. And the benifits were none. Actually, they were >>> slightly worse than normal 11/70s, but the difference were minimal. >>> After DEC decided to not make the 11/74 into a commercial product, >>> they used 11/74 parts for 11/70 machines. Atleast inhouse. Not sure if >>> any of those parts found their way into customers machines. >>> >>> Used as such, the differences were basically related to cache: The MMU >>> have the cache bypass bit. The ASRB instruction always bypass the >>> cache, and you can also order the machine to explicitly bypass the >>> cache (unless my memory fails me). >>> >>> But nothing of this was used by any OS normally, so the only thing >>> noticeable would be the slower ASRB instruction. >>> > > All true statements. ASRB to memory was modified to act as the semaphore > instruction and thus always bypassed the cache AND did an atomic > read/modify/write cycle to the memory. The valid semaphore memory values > were 0 and 1; ASRB would then always set the memory value to 0 and > return the old value in the C-bit from the right shift carry out. Just to clarify things here. The ASRB didn't always write a 0 back, it's just for the spinlock semaphores that only held the value 0 or 1 that ASRB in effect always wrote a 0 (right?). I seem to remember some other paper about this that also pointed out that one optimization done was that if the data read by the ASRB was already 0, it didn't do a write at all, which improved efficiency a lot. Thanks for providing some insight here. If you have more gems stored in your head, perhaps we could talk a bit offline. There are things I'd like to know. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 10 06:26:32 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:26:32 +0000 Subject: Sirius 1 (aka Victor 9000) on Ebay (UK) In-Reply-To: <20060210065337.95399.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060210065337.95399.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43EC8678.9020902@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > what you get someone whos got everything else. Or at > least every other IBM incompatible on the planet (ok > Im not quite there). Also a must for the truly > masochistic (gcr floppies). What every guru/sicko > needs. They're pretty common on this side of the pond for some reason - I can only assume that at one time one of the big UK national companies standardised on them and bought them in the thousands, and they've gradually filtered into private ownership. I can't imagine so many were bought from new by individuals. cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 10 06:35:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 05:35:57 -0700 Subject: GPIB-to-USB In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 10 Feb 2006 06:53:22 +0000. <00ec01c62e0e$b0912580$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: In article <00ec01c62e0e$b0912580$5b01a8c0 at pc1>, "a.carlini at ntlworld.com" writes: > Tony Duell wrote: > > But this is classiccmp.... > > It's still useful to many people. I have no idea whether I > could hang a PET 4040 drive off this thing, but it > would be useful if I could. I have an CBM 8050 drive and it would be very helpful for data interchange if I could hook that up to a PC through some sort of IEEE-488 interface. Does anyone know of one that will work with this drive? Apparently the NI cards don't work so well... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Feb 10 07:58:31 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 05:58:31 -0800 Subject: archiving hard drives, Televideo PM/4T and AT&T7300 In-Reply-To: <20060202013730.35321.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060202013730.35321.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200602100558310698.002498D2@192.168.42.129> Hi, Chris, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 01-Feb-06 at 17:37 Chris M wrote: >I have 2 systems in particular for which I'd like to >create images of the hard drives (well it would be >nice anyway). The first is an AT & T 7300 "UNIX PC" >(68010 based). The other is a Televideo "Personal >Mini" PM/4T or something (80186 based). What's the >best way to go about it? It's not unlikely I'd find an Your desire to do this on a PeeCee is not at all far-fetched. There exists a Windows-based package from Micro-Magic, called SCSI Mechanic, that can make an exact bit-for-bit image file out of them. Very handy for data forensics and image preservation, and it doesn't give a flying banana what the original OS or filesystem on the disk is: It just does a bit-for-bit, period. SCSI Mechanic will also work on IDE drives. Its drivers re-interpret IDE interfaces as SCSI. I have not yet tried it with MFM/RLL interfaces, though I think it would be an interesting experiment. The only downside is that SCSI Mechanic is not cheap (about $130 for a downloaded package). The upside is that it's a really versatile and well-written utility that can do a lot more than take image snapshots. Check http://www.scsimechanic.com for details. Don't the Unix-based OS's have a similar capability with the 'dd' function, BTW? Or does that not do the boot sectors? I find this sort of thread particularly interesting. I'll be curious to see what other listmembers have to say about it. Happy hunting. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 10 08:14:59 2006 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:14:59 -0500 Subject: VCF East 3.0 -- prices and times are now final In-Reply-To: <004b01c62db8$2b98e2b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <004b01c62db8$2b98e2b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <43EC9FE3.5050903@bellsouth.net> Hi Evan -- Am I blind, or is the DATE of the event missing from this email message?? Glen 0/0 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Our club, MARCH (Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists), is now announcing > the prices and times for VCF East 3.0: > > General public admission: > Adults -- $10 > 13 and under -- $7 > > Hours: > Sat. 9:30AM-6:00PM > > ------------------- > > Consignment area: > > - $1 to be included / First-come, first-served (limited space) > - 20% of sale goes to MARCH / 80% goes to seller > - Anything unclaimed becomes a MARCH donation > > ------------------- > > Exhibitor fees: > > Standard booth (approx. 6x8 ft.): > MARCH members -- $20 > Non-members -- $25 > > Extra-large booth (limited availability) MARCH members - $30 Non-members -- > $35 > > Included for all exhibitor booths: basic 110V power, one t-shirt, a 2x6-ft. > table, and dinner (pizza etc.) > > Friday set-up -- 3PM - 8PM / Saturday set-up -- 7AM-9AM > > Exhibitor / VIP dinner -- Sat. 7PM > > ------------------ > > Lectures will run all day long. > > Questions / Special requests: please email me at evank at marchclub.org (NOT at > my newsletter address) > > > > ----------------------------------------- > Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net > > Computer Collector Newsletter: > >>>http://news.computercollector.com > > > Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: > >>>http://www.marchclub.org >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Feb 10 08:44:35 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:44:35 -0600 Subject: Gordon Bell tours of CHM Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060210073646.0516cde8@mail> Microsoft has "Channel 9", a place for their videos and podcasts. There are almost 700 videos there. Among them, two related to classic computers, as tours of the Computer History Museum. http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=123333 http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=123765 Yes, you'll need a contemporary Windows machine to view these videos. They will not run on your glass TTY at 300 baud. Both are about one hour or 220 meg downloads (you can right-click Save Target As to download if you like). There's another "What Did Gordon Miss?" at: http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=51156 (80 meg) and another : http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=47043 - John From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Feb 10 10:15:16 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:15:16 -0500 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: <200602091630230231.7812676F@10.0.0.252> References: <43EBDC09.2080203@oldskool.org> <200602091630230231.7812676F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200602101115.16908.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 09 February 2006 07:30 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2/9/2006 at 6:19 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > >I finally got a chance to try the Silicon Valley Computer ADP50L (an > >8-bit ISA IDE controller) in my IBM 5160 and I have to say, I love the > >thing and want to put it to full active use. My problem is, how do I > >properly mount a "modern" (3.5" half-height) hard drive into the case? > > Why not use a 3.5"-5.25" floppy mounting adapter? They shouldn't be hard > to find. If you lacked a filler plate of the correct size for the bezel, > you could always cut out a sheet of tinted acrylic or ABS to do the job. I have several instances where I wanted to mount a small drive in a large drive bay, and a bunch of those adapters that I've gotten from different sources. In some cases they worked out just fine. In some others, they were obviously "floppy" adapters and the screw holes were just in the wrong place to work with any HD I had on hand here... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Feb 10 10:25:57 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:25:57 -0500 Subject: GPIB-to-USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602101125.57512.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 10 February 2006 07:35 am, Richard wrote: > In article <00ec01c62e0e$b0912580$5b01a8c0 at pc1>, > > "a.carlini at ntlworld.com" writes: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > But this is classiccmp.... > > > > It's still useful to many people. I have no idea whether I > > could hang a PET 4040 drive off this thing, but it > > would be useful if I could. > > I have an CBM 8050 drive and it would be very helpful for data > interchange if I could hook that up to a PC through some sort of > IEEE-488 interface. Does anyone know of one that will work with this > drive? Apparently the NI cards don't work so well... Osborne computers used the parallel "printer" port as an IEEE port as well, it may be worth looking at how they did that. I'm pretty sure that code is out there to be had... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 10 11:25:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:25:54 -0800 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: <200602101115.16908.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <43EBDC09.2080203@oldskool.org> <200602091630230231.7812676F@10.0.0.252> <200602101115.16908.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200602100925540120.7BB41EA2@10.0.0.252> On 2/10/2006 at 11:15 AM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >I have several instances where I wanted to mount a small drive in a large >drive bay, and a bunch of those adapters that I've gotten from different >sources. In some cases they worked out just fine. In some others, they >were obviously "floppy" adapters and the screw holes were just in the >wrong place to work with any HD I had on hand here... There are obviously adapters, and then there are adapters. I pefer the ones that are a complete tray, rather than just two U-shaped pieces, as the tray type usually includes bottom-mount holes for drives, which, AFAIK, will always work. Anent this, something that hasn't been mentioned is the use of removable drive trays to accomplish the same idea. These fit in a 5.25" HH drive bay and enclose your 3.5" drive in a removable (and usually lockable) tray. This gives you the option of using several drives in the same system. This probably wouldn't make the purists happy who want 5.25" authentic appearance rather than functionality, but it's a very clean way to do what's needed. If anyone cares, I've got a pile of these things in IDE and a few in SCSI (they don't work with the "Ultra" mode drives (no, not even if you ground the appropriate signal pin)) that I'd be willing to send off for nothing more than what it costs to ship. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 10 11:28:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:28:33 -0800 Subject: archiving hard drives, Televideo PM/4T and AT&T7300 In-Reply-To: <200602100558310698.002498D2@192.168.42.129> References: <20060202013730.35321.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <200602100558310698.002498D2@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200602100928330859.7BB68E9D@10.0.0.252> On 2/10/2006 at 5:58 AM Bruce Lane wrote: > Your desire to do this on a PeeCee is not at all far-fetched. There >exists a Windows-based package from Micro-Magic, called SCSI Mechanic, >that can make an exact bit-for-bit image file out of them. Very handy for >data forensics and image preservation, and it doesn't give a flying banana >what the original OS or filesystem on the disk is: It just does a >bit-for-bit, period. Dig around a bit on the web "hard disk imaging" is a good phrase. There are several of these packages in either freeware or shareware for PC platforms--some in DOS, some in Windoze and some in Linux. Imaging is a big part of computer forensics and so there has been a lot of interest. Cheers, Chuck From news at computercollector.com Fri Feb 10 11:33:12 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:33:12 -0500 Subject: VCF East 3.0 -- prices and times are now final In-Reply-To: <43EC9FE3.5050903@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <002301c62e68$11b21dc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Doh! The date would help, wouldn't it? Saturday, May 13, this year, this star system. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Goodwin Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 9:15 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VCF East 3.0 -- prices and times are now final Hi Evan -- Am I blind, or is the DATE of the event missing from this email message?? Glen 0/0 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Our club, MARCH (Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists), is now > announcing the prices and times for VCF East 3.0: > > General public admission: > Adults -- $10 > 13 and under -- $7 > > Hours: > Sat. 9:30AM-6:00PM > > ------------------- > > Consignment area: > > - $1 to be included / First-come, first-served (limited space) > - 20% of sale goes to MARCH / 80% goes to seller > - Anything unclaimed becomes a MARCH donation > > ------------------- > > Exhibitor fees: > > Standard booth (approx. 6x8 ft.): > MARCH members -- $20 > Non-members -- $25 > > Extra-large booth (limited availability) MARCH members - $30 > Non-members -- > $35 > > Included for all exhibitor booths: basic 110V power, one t-shirt, a 2x6-ft. > table, and dinner (pizza etc.) > > Friday set-up -- 3PM - 8PM / Saturday set-up -- 7AM-9AM > > Exhibitor / VIP dinner -- Sat. 7PM > > ------------------ > > Lectures will run all day long. > > Questions / Special requests: please email me at evank at marchclub.org > (NOT at my newsletter address) > > > > ----------------------------------------- > Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net > > Computer Collector Newsletter: > >>>http://news.computercollector.com > > > Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: > >>>http://www.marchclub.org >>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ > > > From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Feb 10 12:09:27 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:09:27 -0600 Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: <43EC5D70.8040002@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Speaking of CIS, can anyone point me to a good document as to what the benefits of CIS are? I've often wondered what this is about, as it's a plug-in chip on my 11/23+ > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 3:31 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Original 11/74 front panel > > Don North wrote: > > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > >>> "Julian Wolfe (FireflyST)" wrote: > >>> > >> > >>>>> Okay, what I immediately noticed is that these > machines say "MP" and >>>>> Don's panel doesn't. > >> > >>> More differences: Don's panel have the location for the > key moved to >>> the other side of the parity lamps. Which > is rather weird. > >>> Also, the screenprint of 11/74 looks shadowed, which is > weird. And the >>> right hand side have a different color > than the left hand side. > >>> And of course, the 11/74s from Tim don't have any CIS > stuff on the >>> front panel. > > > > Besides moving the keyswitch, the dial selector knobs on > the righthand > side were moved around as well to make space > to label all the extra > switch positions. > > > > As I mentioned in another reply, the artifacts are due to > scanning the > panel on a 14" flatbed scanner in two pieces, > and merging the scans. > > When I get around to it I'll take a high quality > single-view photograph. > > Yes, I saw that. > Well, that explains those artifacts. It would definitely by > nice if you could take a good photo of it at some time. > > >>> (I'm still thinking that Don's panel have never had a > matching piece >>> of real hardware, since I don't think > that CPU was ever built.) > > I can only say that I worked > on real 11/74 hardware in 1978-9 writing > microcode for the > 11/74 CIS (commercial instruction set) accelerator > (packed > decimal, string instructions, etc). See > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1174/Prelim_KB11-E_Diff s_Aug78.pdf > > for a memo written by Ray Boucher, one of the hardware > designers (Al, > how did you ever come across a memo such as > this???). The other hardware > designed was Mike Brown. The > other microcoders were Dave Sager and Lewis > Costas. The > project manager was Dave Barry. How much more do you need to > know? > > Ok. I'm conviced. :-) > Thanks, by the way for clearing that up. > > > Not a lot of 11/74 CIS systems were built, probably no > more than a dozen > or so maximum. The 11/74 folded in the > 11/70MP changes which had been > done about a year earlier, > so an 11/74 was really an 11/70MP base plus > the CIS > option. Later when the 11/74 CIS was killed as a product, the > > 11/74 name lived on, but it was strictly a renamed version > of the 11/70MP. > > Wonderful that some were really built. Were they every used > for anything, or were they just built to prove it worked, and > then cancelled? What happened to those machines? > > Hmm, you raised a new question in my mind. I have always been > under the impression that the 11/74 designation was for the > MP system, but here you seem to imply that the 11/74 was > really the 11/70 with CIS, and the moniker was actually only > taken over by the MP system after the 11/70 CIS was > cancelled. Is that correctly understood? If so, that's interesting. > > Do you know why they cancelled it? (Well, I could guess that > the CIS really didn't turn out to be something customers > asked for, especially not after the VAX started rolling, but > anyway...) > > >>>>> Were there non-multiprocessor 11/74s? If so, what > would have been >>>>> the benefits over 11/70s? > >> > >>> > >>> Yes there were. And the benifits were none. Actually, > they were >>> slightly worse than normal 11/70s, but the > difference were minimal. > >>> After DEC decided to not make the 11/74 into a > commercial product, >>> they used 11/74 parts for 11/70 > machines. Atleast inhouse. Not sure if >>> any of those > parts found their way into customers machines. > >>> > >>> Used as such, the differences were basically related to > cache: The MMU >>> have the cache bypass bit. The ASRB > instruction always bypass the >>> cache, and you can also > order the machine to explicitly bypass the >>> cache (unless > my memory fails me). > >>> > >>> But nothing of this was used by any OS normally, so the > only thing >>> noticeable would be the slower ASRB instruction. > >>> > > > > All true statements. ASRB to memory was modified to act as > the semaphore > instruction and thus always bypassed the > cache AND did an atomic > read/modify/write cycle to the > memory. The valid semaphore memory values > were 0 and 1; > ASRB would then always set the memory value to 0 and > > return the old value in the C-bit from the right shift carry out. > > Just to clarify things here. The ASRB didn't always write a 0 > back, it's just for the spinlock semaphores that only held > the value 0 or 1 that ASRB in effect always wrote a 0 (right?). > I seem to remember some other paper about this that also > pointed out that one optimization done was that if the data > read by the ASRB was already 0, it didn't do a write at all, > which improved efficiency a lot. > > Thanks for providing some insight here. If you have more gems > stored in your head, perhaps we could talk a bit offline. > There are things I'd like to know. :-) > > Johnny > > -- > Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus > || on a psychedelic trip > email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books > pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 10 12:15:17 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:15:17 -0700 Subject: Project Delta pictures Message-ID: Some of you guys may have noticed I often refer to the computing center at udel.edu "back in the day". Here are some B&W photos of their machine room at the time. You may find them interesting. Systems shown: PDP-11/70 DEC-10 Burroughs B7700 Control Data Corporation Cyber-173(?) Xerox 1200 laser printer -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 10 12:50:28 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 10:50:28 -0800 Subject: archiving hard drives, Televideo PM/4T and AT&T7300 Message-ID: <636BA87D-86D3-4D44-92BA-154633F01E71@bitsavers.org> > Don't the Unix-based OS's have a similar capability with the 'dd' function, BTW? dd will fail on the first bad block on the device. It also wouldn't work if the SCSI device is using a sector size different from what the raw device driver is expecting. Getting disc images of these discs may be more difficult than you might initially think, because they aren't likely to be either SCSI or IDE. If they are ST506, you have to have a disc interface that matches the sector encoding. It is unlikely you are going to be able to find one that will match using commodity ISA controllers. If the computers are working, you'll probably have to write some code to send the data out through some interface on the computer, like a serial port, dealing with the possiblity of bad sectors. The 7300 was common enough that I would think a program exists somewhere to to that. From bdwheele at indiana.edu Fri Feb 10 12:57:40 2006 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:57:40 -0500 Subject: archiving hard drives, Televideo PM/4T and AT&T7300 In-Reply-To: <636BA87D-86D3-4D44-92BA-154633F01E71@bitsavers.org> References: <636BA87D-86D3-4D44-92BA-154633F01E71@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1139597860.21493.2.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> On Fri, 2006-02-10 at 10:50 -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > > Don't the Unix-based OS's have a similar capability with the 'dd' > function, BTW? > > dd will fail on the first bad block on the device. Not necessarily. most dd's have "conv=noerror" which just put a block of nulls wherever there's errors. Brian From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Feb 10 12:58:02 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:58:02 -0500 Subject: archiving hard drives, Televideo PM/4T and AT&T7300 In-Reply-To: <636BA87D-86D3-4D44-92BA-154633F01E71@bitsavers.org> References: <636BA87D-86D3-4D44-92BA-154633F01E71@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <43ECE23A.6090604@atarimuseum.com> Yeah, I've run into that as well, dd is not very forgiving.... Curt Al Kossow wrote: > > > Don't the Unix-based OS's have a similar capability with the 'dd' > function, BTW? > > dd will fail on the first bad block on the device. > > It also wouldn't work if the SCSI device is using a sector size > different from > what the raw device driver is expecting. > > Getting disc images of these discs may be more difficult than you > might initially > think, because they aren't likely to be either SCSI or IDE. If they > are ST506, you > have to have a disc interface that matches the sector encoding. It is > unlikely > you are going to be able to find one that will match using commodity > ISA controllers. > > If the computers are working, you'll probably have to write some code > to send the > data out through some interface on the computer, like a serial port, > dealing with > the possiblity of bad sectors. The 7300 was common enough that I would > think a > program exists somewhere to to that. > > > > > --No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.5/256 - Release Date: 2/10/2006 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.5/256 - Release Date: 2/10/2006 From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Feb 10 13:11:36 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 20:11:36 +0100 Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2319@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> CIS stands for Commercial Instruction Set. The chip adds new "instruction opcodes" to the processor. AFAIK it is of little use, unless you have COBOL programs, or do a lot of string manipulations, and then of course it is only used if the program recognizes it. That's about what I know. I have the chip here too, but never thought of installing it, because it will draw power, generate some extra heat, and that's about it. But I keep the chip, it's a bit rare, and because of its looks :-) - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Julian Wolfe Verzonden: vr 10-02-2006 19:09 Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Onderwerp: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) Speaking of CIS, can anyone point me to a good document as to what the benefits of CIS are? I've often wondered what this is about, as it's a plug-in chip on my 11/23+ This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Feb 10 13:27:32 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:27:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: from "Julian Wolfe" at Feb 10, 2006 12:09:27 PM Message-ID: <200602101927.k1AJRWt4020161@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Speaking of CIS, can anyone point me to a good document as to what the > benefits of CIS are? I've often wondered what this is about, as it's a > plug-in chip on my 11/23+ > As I recall, it's for *business* computing, rather than *scientific* computing. I think it speeds up Cobol, and maybe some other stuff. Out of *all* of my PDP-11's, the only system I have with the CIS option is a /23+. I rather wish I had it for my /44, though I don't actually need it :^) Zane From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Feb 10 13:27:47 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 20:27:47 +0100 Subject: Original 11/74 front panel Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE231A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hmm, I was wondering ... (as if I don't have enough projects at hand), the 11/70MP or 11/74 are of course real unobtainium gold-pressed latinum (perhaps even literally!). So, I think it makes sense to get SIMH running on a PC/104 board (trivial), add the Blinkenlight Core and I/O Board and build an 11/74 console. You could make a replica of the console, or perhaps re-use an 11/70 console panel and make a new plastic front. If the key switch or the rotary knobs are in the wrong position, you could re-arrange that. What matters are the switches and the LEDs for a "real" replica. Of course, I am *not* saying that you should rip a console of a real 11/70 ! We know a source, just be prepared to put down some money ... I bought a real 11/70 console, and started on the metal workz to build a nice (smallish) box behind the panel. Guess what's going inside that :-) But this gets close to the new thread "mounting new hardware in vintage hardware". - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Tim Shoppa Verzonden: wo 08-02-2006 19:24 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: Original 11/74 front panel Don North wrote > So how many of these panels exist is hard to say. I know only of one. Two more can be seen at http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/1174Xopen.jpg So that makes three :-). Tim. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Feb 10 13:42:08 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:42:08 -0600 Subject: Project Delta pictures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060210134148.02622d30@mail.ubanproductions.com> Nice pictures! Thanks for sharing! --tom At 11:15 AM 2/10/2006 -0700, you wrote: >Some of you guys may have noticed I often refer to the computing >center at udel.edu "back in the day". Here are some B&W photos of >their machine room at the time. You may find them interesting. > >Systems shown: > > PDP-11/70 > DEC-10 > Burroughs B7700 > Control Data Corporation Cyber-173(?) > Xerox 1200 laser printer > > >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Feb 10 14:49:19 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:49:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90602071348h508dbd61ide07338198a2c047@mail.gmail.com> References: <43E7D828.2080104@mcdermith.net> <1e1fc3e90602071348h508dbd61ide07338198a2c047@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Glen Slick wrote: > I don't know whether basic interpreters exist for other 264x > terminals, but there was a basic interpreter for the 2647F terminal. > The 2647F used externally connected floppy drives instead of tape > drives. I have a 2647F but unfortunately don't have a copy of the > basic disks. Someone on the list (Eric?) mentioned having copies a > long time ago and I didn't follow up and get copies at the time. Something about Autoplot triggered a distant memory, and I found a couple of 5-1/4" diskettes which may be for the 2647F. The first is labeled AUTOPLOT/47, with a part number of 02647-13401. If I'm reading the hex dump of what appears to be the directory sector correctly, it has the following files: WELCOME SLIDEX PIE AGLX AUTO AUTO2 AUTOX AUTOX2 CTUL001 BASIC LINEAR BAR SLIDE BACKUP MESSAGE1 There are two other diskettes, with DEMO/47 and something else I'll have to check on when I get home. What filesystem format did the 2647F use? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From henk.gooijen at oce.com Fri Feb 10 13:44:13 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 20:44:13 +0100 Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE231D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> now you got me thinking, Zane. I have FIS in my 11/44, and I am not sure I have CIS either installed in the /44, or the module is somewhere, or I passed on it for the same reason I did not install the CIS chip in the QBUS-based 11. My 11/35 OTOH does have FIS and CIS (and MMU plus SLR), but that's just to have a complete CPU with *all* options :-) - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Zane H. Healy Verzonden: vr 10-02-2006 20:27 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) > > Speaking of CIS, can anyone point me to a good document as to what the > benefits of CIS are? I've often wondered what this is about, as it's a > plug-in chip on my 11/23+ > As I recall, it's for *business* computing, rather than *scientific* computing. I think it speeds up Cobol, and maybe some other stuff. Out of *all* of my PDP-11's, the only system I have with the CIS option is a /23+. I rather wish I had it for my /44, though I don't actually need it :^) Zane This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Feb 10 13:54:22 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:54:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: archiving hard drives, Televideo PM/4T and AT&T7300 In-Reply-To: <636BA87D-86D3-4D44-92BA-154633F01E71@bitsavers.org> References: <636BA87D-86D3-4D44-92BA-154633F01E71@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200602101956.OAA24811@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > dd will fail on the first bad block on the device. Not if you use conv=noerror,sync. But unless your bs= value equals the sector size, a bad block will take out some nearby blocks as well when run that way; you really want something better tuned to imaging disks, something that in particular steps down to smaller blocksizes when it gets a read error, so as to recover as much as it can. Of course, this all presumes that there is a Unix variant for a machine to which the disks can be attached.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Feb 10 13:58:49 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:58:49 -0600 Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE231D@OVL-EXBE01.oceven lo.oce.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20060210135744.043a3550@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 08:44 PM 2/10/2006 +0100, you wrote: >now you got me thinking, Zane. >I have FIS in my 11/44, and I am not sure I have CIS either installed >in the /44, or the module is somewhere, or I passed on it for the same >reason I did not install the CIS chip in the QBUS-based 11. >My 11/35 OTOH does have FIS and CIS (and MMU plus SLR), but Do you mean EIS (M7238) instead of CIS here? --tom >that's just to have a complete CPU with *all* options :-) > >- Henk. > >________________________________ > >Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Zane H. Healy >Verzonden: vr 10-02-2006 20:27 >Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Onderwerp: Re: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) > > > > > > > Speaking of CIS, can anyone point me to a good document as to what the > > benefits of CIS are? I've often wondered what this is about, as it's a > > plug-in chip on my 11/23+ > > > >As I recall, it's for *business* computing, rather than *scientific* >computing. I think it speeds up Cobol, and maybe some other stuff. > >Out of *all* of my PDP-11's, the only system I have with the CIS option is a >/23+. I rather wish I had it for my /44, though I don't actually need it >:^) > > Zane > > > > > > >This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the >addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or >otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. >If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for >delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified >that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is >strictly prohibited. >If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender >immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. >Thank you for your cooperation. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Feb 10 13:58:08 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:58:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE231D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Feb 10, 2006 08:44:13 PM Message-ID: <200602101958.k1AJw8R0020967@onyx.spiritone.com> > now you got me thinking, Zane. > I have FIS in my 11/44, and I am not sure I have CIS either installed > in the /44, or the module is somewhere, or I passed on it for the same > reason I did not install the CIS chip in the QBUS-based 11. > My 11/35 OTOH does have FIS and CIS (and MMU plus SLR), but > that's just to have a complete CPU with *all* options :-) > > - Henk. I think you've gotten me beat, I don't believe I have the FIS for my /44 either. As I recall I have the base CPU boardset. But hey, I've got a SCSI Disk/Tape board in there, as well as ethernet, RL02 controller, and something like 1MB RAM so I can't complain :^) My /23+ does have FIS and CIS I believe (I know it has all the CPU options). Having said that, the only system I really ever use is my /73. Zane From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Feb 10 14:01:06 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:01:06 -0800 Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2319@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2319@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <43ECF102.80509@mindspring.com> What Henk says is basically accurate. The PDP-11 Commercial Instruction Set was designed to support PDP-11 Cobol applications. AFAIK the PDP-11 RSX-11M Cobol compiler was the only application that actually made any use of CIS, altho it is possible that some OSes internally might have used the string move (MOVC) instruction for moving memory around (it worked on arbitratry sized/aligned blocks of up to 64KB, the entire memory space). I don't know of a good description available of PDP-11 CIS, but it might be available in PDP-11 CPU guides for the PDP-11/44, PDP-11/23-4, which had CIS options. For a reasonably good overview, look in the SIMH PDP-11 sources at the file "pdp11_cis.c" which implements the CIS instruction set in C code and has a lot of good commentary. The list of CIS instructions is really rather short: MOVC,MOVRC,MOVTC -- string moves CMPC,LOCC,SKPC,SCANC,SPANC,MATC -- string operations ADDP,SUBP,CMPP,ASHP,MULP,DIVP -- packed decimal math ADDN,SUBN,CMPN,ASHN -- unpacked decimal math CVTNL,CVTLN,CVTPN,CVTNP,CVTPL,CVTLP -- data conversion LD2R,LD3R -- descriptor loads I wrote the 11/74 microcode for LDxR, CMPC~MATC, and the CVTxx groups. Probably the most interesting/fun instruction to code was MATC (match substring in string). One of the more complicated, believe it or not, was the plain old MOVC, as least in the 11/74 CIS implementation, as it was highly optimized to run the 11/74 memory subsystem at full bandwidth, no wasted cycles. MOVC is also tricky because it allowed for overlapping source/destination strings, and the microcode must handle this correctly. And of course since all these instructions could run for a very long time (eg, 64K memory move) they had to be interruptible/continuable/restartable so as not to degrade the system interrupt latency. Now you know why RISC architecture is so popular... this all took 4KW of 96b wide micro code in the CISP and another 512W of 64b wide code in the base 11/74 CPU. Gooijen, Henk wrote: > CIS stands for Commercial Instruction Set. > The chip adds new "instruction opcodes" to the processor. > AFAIK it is of little use, unless you have COBOL programs, > or do a lot of string manipulations, and then of course it > is only used if the program recognizes it. > That's about what I know. I have the chip here too, but never > thought of installing it, because it will draw power, generate > some extra heat, and that's about it. > But I keep the chip, it's a bit rare, and because of its looks :-) > > - Henk, PA8PDP. > > ________________________________ > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Julian Wolfe > Verzonden: vr 10-02-2006 19:09 > Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Onderwerp: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) > > > > Speaking of CIS, can anyone point me to a good document as to what the > benefits of CIS are? I've often wondered what this is about, as it's a > plug-in chip on my 11/23+ > > From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Feb 10 14:05:09 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:05:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: archiving hard drives, Televideo PM/4T and AT&T7300 In-Reply-To: <200602101956.OAA24811@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20060210200509.4FB455817F@mail.wordstock.com> > > > dd will fail on the first bad block on the device. > > Not if you use conv=noerror,sync. But unless your bs= value equals the > sector size, a bad block will take out some nearby blocks as well when > run that way; you really want something better tuned to imaging disks, > something that in particular steps down to smaller blocksizes when it > gets a read error, so as to recover as much as it can. > > Of course, this all presumes that there is a Unix variant for a machine > to which the disks can be attached.... > dd has also been talked about on Commodore mailing lists as a tool to backup hard drives connected to a C64 or 128. Cheers, Bryan From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Feb 10 14:06:36 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:06:36 -0800 Subject: Original 11/74 front panel In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE231A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE231A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <43ECF24C.1050708@mindspring.com> Actually I was thinking of making a replacement/alternate front panel for my 11/44 uisng the 11/74 panel. Add real blinking lights/switches connected up to the real UNIBUS/memorybus. The 11/44 panel is *way* too spartan looking, and the 11/74 panel would fit just perfectly on the front of the box. Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Hmm, I was wondering ... (as if I don't have enough projects at hand), > the 11/70MP or 11/74 are of course real unobtainium gold-pressed latinum > (perhaps even literally!). So, I think it makes sense to get SIMH running > on a PC/104 board (trivial), add the Blinkenlight Core and I/O Board and > build an 11/74 console. You could make a replica of the console, or perhaps > re-use an 11/70 console panel and make a new plastic front. If the key switch > or the rotary knobs are in the wrong position, you could re-arrange that. > What matters are the switches and the LEDs for a "real" replica. > Of course, I am *not* saying that you should rip a console of a real 11/70 ! > We know a source, just be prepared to put down some money ... > > I bought a real 11/70 console, and started on the metal workz to build a > nice (smallish) box behind the panel. Guess what's going inside that :-) > But this gets close to the new thread "mounting new hardware in vintage > hardware". > > - Henk, PA8PDP. > > ________________________________ > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Tim Shoppa > Verzonden: wo 08-02-2006 19:24 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Original 11/74 front panel > > > > Don North wrote > >> So how many of these panels exist is hard to say. I know only of one. >> > > Two more can be seen at > > http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/1174Xopen.jpg > > So that makes three :-). > > Tim. > > > > > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. > If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. > If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. > Thank you for your cooperation. > > > From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Feb 10 14:35:04 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Edward) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 21:35:04 +0100 (CET) Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: <200602101958.k1AJw8R0020967@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE231D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Feb 10, 2006 08:44:13 PM <200602101958.k1AJw8R0020967@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <21305.88.211.153.27.1139603704.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > >> My 11/35 OTOH does have FIS and CIS (and MMU plus SLR), but >> that's just to have a complete CPU with *all* options :-) Ehh, I think that should be FIS & EIS.... Ed From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 10 14:41:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:41:42 -0800 Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: <43ECF102.80509@mindspring.com> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2319@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <43ECF102.80509@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200602101241420400.7C6761EF@10.0.0.252> On 2/10/2006 at 12:01 PM Don North wrote: >Now you know why RISC architecture is so popular... this all took 4KW of >96b wide micro code in the CISP and another 512W of 64b wide code in the base 11/74 CPU. Interesting--the lower CDC Cybers (72,73 and probably the 172, 173) had an option for a CMU "Compare/Move Unit", which implemented varioius 6-bit byte oriented operations. The 74 and 174 didn't implement it. Interestingly, the 6600/74/174 without the CMU could pretty much bury any other "commercial instruction set" CPU available running COBOL. There are some pretty nifty bit-twiddling tricks that a 1's-complement arithmetic instruction set operating on wide (for the time) words can perform that pretty much makes a CMU-like box redundant, particularly on a parallel-issue architecture like the 6600. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 10 14:46:48 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:46:48 -0700 Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 10 Feb 2006 11:58:08 -0800. <200602101958.k1AJw8R0020967@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: If anyone has one laying around they're not using, I'd like a FIS for my 11/03 :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Feb 10 15:04:45 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:04:45 -0500 Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:01:06 PST." <43ECF102.80509@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200602102104.k1AL4jY6017614@mwave.heeltoe.com> Don North wrote: >What Henk says is basically accurate. The PDP-11 Commercial Instruction >Set was >designed to support PDP-11 Cobol applications. AFAIK the PDP-11 RSX-11M >Cobol compiler was the only application that actually made any use of >CIS, altho it I thought DIBOL used it also. At one time (while in college) I moonlighted (moonlit?) writing DIBOL code for a local newspaper. The older gentle man who ran the shop didn't think it was funny when I wrote a RSTS background job which would pop up on a random terminal and say something like "I am the random glitch - catch me if you can!" :-) anyway, I thought that machine was an 11/34 with CIS. I seem to remember something about a dibol subsystem. But I was not entirely lucid at the time, being a college student and all. -brad From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Feb 10 15:17:12 2006 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 13:17:12 -0800 Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Others have already pointed out what CIS stands for and what the instructions are. SIMH is a good source for describing the instructions, but also the later PDP-11 Processor Handbooks have complete chapters devoted to explaining the instructions. For example, my 1979-80 04/34a/44/60/70 handbook (a spare that I keep at work) has Chapter 12 devoted entirely to CIS. A couple of other ideas: Seems to me that the VAX string and decimal instructions are direct descendents of the CIS set. I never asked anyone at the time as it seemed obvious. But maybe I should ask the former DEC-types. Is this true? One of the most used string instructions on VAX was MOVC3/MOVC5. [At least in my opinion, in my own code, and in most of the OS code.] Later versions of RSTS (starting around 9.0) used CIS in the OS, if it was available. Perhaps Paul Koning could comment on what it was used for. [Do we have any other former RSTS developers on list?] While COBOL was the primary user of CIS, it wasn't limited to COBOL programmers, of course. I don't remember if there are options in F-77 or BP2+ to use CIS if available, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were. Of course a Macro programmer could access the instructions. One of the things I actually did on the VAX but never got around to back-porting to CIS on an -11 was to use the string and decimal instructions to implement sprintf() internals. There were some neat tricks one could do converting decimal to ASCII. For example, here is my ltoa() routine: .title ltoa - integer to ascii conversions .ident /31-Oct-1984/ .enable debug .dsabl global ; ; *** Edit History *** ; ; 27-Jun-1984 Original creation and testing. Only `d' ; implemented. ; ; 28-Jun-1984 Octal, hex and unsigned added. Decimal re-written. ; ; 20-Jul-1984 Re-write of the dispatch mechanism. ; Common exit path which copies out the string and ; makes it asciz. ; ; 30-Jul-1984 Add binary. ; Use mulp instead of movp and addp in unsigned. ; ; 31-Jul-1984 Grab more stack space. Binary conversion needs it. ; Reduce code for non-decimal conversions. ; ; 01-Aug-1984 Minor change to binary code. ; ; 10-Aug-1984 Enable debugging in the source module. ; Use the `packed' directive instead of compiling ; packed values by hand. ; ; 10-Sep-1984 Use the same dispatch method as jd_format(). ; Use movc3 instead of movc5 in all_common. ; ; 19-Oct-1984 Reverse change of 30-Jul-1984. According to the internal ; VAX Performance Summary, the movp/addp4 combination will ; be faster (on all machines) than the mulp instruction. ; Make sure that the `forms' and `action' tables have the ; same number of entries in them. ; ; 31-Oct-1984 Change movc5 to use a better source mode. ; .psect jd_ro_data, noexe, pic, shr, rd, nowrt packed_one: .packed 1 ;packed_two: ; .packed 2 dec_pattern: eo$float 9 eo$end_float eo$move 1 eo$end upper_hex: .ascii /0123456789ABCDEF/ lower_hex: .ascii /0123456789abcdef/ forms: .ascii /duoxXb/ ; format types that we handle form_len = . - forms action: .address signed ; %d - regular decimal .address unsigned ; %u - unsigned decimal .address octal ; %o - octal .address hex_low ; %x - hexadecimal lower case .address hex_comm ; %X - hexadecimal upper case .address binary ; %b - binary act_len = . - action assume eq form_len ; tables must have same number of entries ; ; function void jd_ltoa (buffer, radix, value) ; char *buffer, radix; ; int value; ; .psect jd_ro_code, pic, shr, rd, nowrt .entry jd_ltoa, ^m movab -40(sp), sp ; get some local space movc5 #0, (sp), #0, #40, (sp) ; pre-zero it locc 8(ap), #form_len, forms ; find the radix character beql 10$ ; not found, exit movab upper_hex, r4 ; set this up if needed subl3 r0, #form_len, r0 ; create offset movl action[r0], r0 ; get action routine address jmp (r0) ; dispatch 10$: clrb @4(ap) ; asciz string ret ; ... signed: cvtlp 12(ap), #10, -20(fp) ; convert long to packed dec_common: editpc #10, -20(fp), dec_pattern, (sp) ; edit the string skpc #^a/ /, #10, (sp) ; skip leading blanks all_common: incl r0 ; plus the one we're on movc3 r0, (r1), @4(ap) ; move out the string clrb (r3) ; make it asciz ret ; ... unsigned: extzv #1, #31, 12(ap), r0 ; get all but the lowest bit cvtlp r0, #10, (sp) ; convert long to packed movp #10, (sp), -20(fp) ; replicate the result addp4 #10, (sp), #10, -20(fp) ; * 2 ; mulp #1, packed_two, #10, (sp), #10, -20(fp) ; *2 blbc 12(ap), dec_common ; was the low bit set originally? addp4 #1, packed_one, #10, -20(fp) ; add a one into it brb dec_common ; to common code octal: movzbl #30, r2 ; initial position movzbl #3, r3 ; field width movzbl #10, r7 ; number of significant digits brb oct_comm hex_low: movab lower_hex, r4 ; table to use hex_comm: movzbl #28, r2 ; initial position movzbl #4, r3 ; field width movzbl #7, r7 ; number of significant digits oct_comm: mnegl r3, r5 ; increment movl 12(ap), r6 ; get the value movab (sp), r0 ; get the addr of temp buffer 10$: extzv r2, r3, r6, r1 ; extract a digit of right size movb (r4)[r1], (r0)+ ; move a byte acbl #0, r5, r2, 10$ ; continue 'till done skpc #^a/0/, r7, (sp) ; skip leading 0's brb all_common ; use common code binary: movzbl #31, r2 ; initial position movzbl #1, r3 ; field width movl r2, r7 ; number of significant digits brb oct_comm ; use common code .end Might be a fun exercise to try converting this to Macro-11 with CIS. John From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Feb 10 15:23:57 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 21:23:57 -0000 Subject: Paging Henk..... Message-ID: <023001c62e88$4dd25de0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Henk, I sent you a message last weekend, which I think may have fallen into your spam filter. Regards Jim Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 10 15:39:56 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:39:56 -0700 Subject: DIBOL (was: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 10 Feb 2006 16:04:45 -0500. <200602102104.k1AL4jY6017614@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: In article <200602102104.k1AL4jY6017614 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, Brad Parker writes: > I thought DIBOL used it also. Wow, someone mentioned DIBOL :-). My 11/03 came with a DIBOL manual and apparently there are some .DBL files sprinkled around the disk packs (I haven't inventoried them completely yet). I hadn't heard of DIBOL until I got this system, probably because we didn't have it for our 11/70 and I never cared for COBOL anyway :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 10 16:04:14 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:04:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: GPIB-to-USB In-Reply-To: <43EBCF03.5080108@mcdermith.net> References: <43EBCF03.5080108@mcdermith.net> Message-ID: <20060210140119.P18670@shell.lmi.net> if you used q device to connect USB peripherals to a GPIB host, you will definitely have to write your own drivers. It seems like a lot of work for connecting a USB fake aquarium to an old HP. From jcwren at jcwren.com Fri Feb 10 16:07:29 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:07:29 -0500 Subject: DIBOL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43ED0EA1.9040106@jcwren.com> Years ago I worked for a company whose product went in-line with a copier harness, and would count copies. The user entered an account code, and after the copies completed, the account code, date, time and copy count was written to a cassette on a little Z80 box. We then read these tapes on a PDP-8 system (can't remember the nomenclature, but the one that looked like an office desk). The initial tape read was done with a COS-310 program and wrote the data to a floppy in some weird format whose main characteristics seemed to be that COS-310 and OS/8 could read them, but had no directory. Each customer had their own floppy with the account processing programs on it, as they often had different billing rates and such. Under OS/8, a DIBOL program read the data diskette(s) and sorted by date time, account code, combined account codes, etc, and then printed a report. The report might range anywhere from 10 pages to 300, depending on the volume (on a LA-36, no less!). Then we hand-scrawled a three letter company code on the report, and the couriers would deliver those back to the companies. Some of these law firms would bill out as few as 5% of their copies prior to our system, and we could usually get them up to 97% or so. Because this PDP-8 really interested me, I learned DIBOL and wrote a program that would write a large 3 letter banner on the cover sheet, long with that, it wrote the companies name, address, phone number and contact information, giving us a much more professional appearance. I was one of the three guys who ran tapes. We rented time on the PDP8 from a law firm, so we only had access to the machines from 6PM to 6AM. One of our people was highly (obnoxiously) religious person, prone to posting little notes. I taught myself PDP-8 assembly and modified to the tape read program to display little counter quips back at him on the VT-52. He turned about and taught himself enough to do the same, and the war escalated. After I wrote the banner program, so many customers commented on how pleasing the reports looked that the company paid me for the 20 hours or so it took to write it (at $7/hr, big money!) and a $500 bonus. Not bad for a 16 year old. --jc Richard wrote: > In article <200602102104.k1AL4jY6017614 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, > Brad Parker writes: > > >> I thought DIBOL used it also. >> > > Wow, someone mentioned DIBOL :-). > > My 11/03 came with a DIBOL manual and apparently there are some .DBL > files sprinkled around the disk packs (I haven't inventoried them > completely yet). > > I hadn't heard of DIBOL until I got this system, probably because we > didn't have it for our 11/70 and I never cared for COBOL anyway :-). > From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Feb 10 16:10:16 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:10:16 -0800 Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43ED0F48.8020300@mindspring.com> John A. Dundas III wrote: > Others have already pointed out what CIS stands for and what the > instructions are. SIMH is a good source for describing the > instructions, but also the later PDP-11 Processor Handbooks have > complete chapters devoted to explaining the instructions. For > example, my 1979-80 04/34a/44/60/70 handbook (a spare that I keep at > work) has Chapter 12 devoted entirely to CIS. > A couple of other ideas: > > Seems to me that the VAX string and decimal instructions are direct > descendents of the CIS set. I never asked anyone at the time as it > seemed obvious. But maybe I should ask the former DEC-types. Is this > true? > The PDP-11 CIS was defined about the same time as the VAX architecture was being developed (1977-78), so it should be no surprise they are very similar, and in many cases share the same opcode mnemonics (LOCC, SKPC, CVTLP, etc). Neither one is really the ancestor of the other; they are really more like siblings or cousins. The main difference is in how operands are specified; the PDP-11 is much more register and opcode-limited, so a descriptor approach was used, with operands specified by a pair of general registers (Reven=type/length, Rodd=address). So the register pairs R0/R1, R2/3, R4/R5 could hold up to three descriptors, usually two source and one destination (like ADDP3). Having the descriptors in registers also helped those instructions that were interruptible; partial results could be left in the registers if the instruction was interrupted midstream and later restarted. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 10 16:37:10 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 14:37:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: GPIB-to-USB In-Reply-To: <200602101125.57512.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200602101125.57512.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <20060210143322.N18670@shell.lmi.net> > I have an CBM 8050 drive and it would be very helpful for data > interchange if I could hook that up to a PC through some sort of > IEEE-488 interface. Does anyone know of one that will work with this > drive? Apparently the NI cards don't work so well... I played around for a while with an MSD IEEE-488 drive (intended for Commodore), using an IBM [8 bit] IEEE-488 board. There are people using some of the cheap Commodore drives with PC parallel ports. (is that using the IEC port of the drive? is it still called IEC?) From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Feb 10 12:33:46 2006 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 18:33:46 +0000 Subject: Date on STK7551 regulator? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060210233247.WCZY18394.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > Does anyone have, or know of a source of, data on the STK7551? > > This is a hybrid circuit, designed to mount onto a heatsink. It's got 16 > (or so) connectons on oen edge, which are soldered to the PCB. > > What I know : > -Tony Tony, I think this date is in japanese semiconductor date format. Cheers, Wizard From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Feb 10 12:33:46 2006 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 18:33:46 +0000 Subject: Anybody have devices using RGB LEDs? In-Reply-To: <00cc01c62dab$75220860$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: Message-ID: <20060210233250.WDAH18394.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > Just as a backgrounder, there's a company called Color Kinetics that > > owns the patent for mixing R, G, and B light from LED's. I was > They musty have been trying it on. There's surely no way they > can do anything to stop you discussing how to avoid their patent. > > Nothing to stop them trying to scare you off though. > > Antonio When we're referring to RGB LED, we meant red, green AND BLUE dies in one package and accessible interdependent of each other to get full rainbow color range. from green, blue, red all the way to white. Not bi-color LEDs with 3 leads. These have 2 LED dies in one package and when both lit, it is not white. White LEDs is kind of a cheat. No "true white die LED" yet. White LEDs is done two ways by 3 dies lit up in correct ratios to get white or using blue LED die smothered with white phosphors. That is reason you usually see low grade white LED glowing purplish to bluish tinted even "urine-tinted". UGH. For this reason luxeon bin their high wattage white LEDs by grades all the way from bluish, ice cold white to nice soothing warm-white. Quantum dots will come up eventually for white emission by solid state like LED are. This recently discovered last year. Cheers, Wizard > -- > > Antonio carlini > arcarlini at iee.org > From bqt at update.uu.se Fri Feb 10 17:52:47 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 00:52:47 +0100 Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: <200602102209.k1AM9A8P046603@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200602102209.k1AM9A8P046603@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43ED274F.9060506@update.uu.se> "Julian Wolfe" wrote: > Speaking of CIS, can anyone point me to a good document as to what the > benefits of CIS are? I've often wondered what this is about, as it's a > plug-in chip on my 11/23+ As others have said, CIS stands for Commercial Instruction Set. It's an add-on to the PDP-11 for string manipulation. It's entirely described in a number of versions of the PDP-11 processor handbook. Probably any version dealing with the 11/44, 11/23 or 11/24, since those were the only CPUs to have CIS (if we ignore the 11/74). Further comments on this thread: An 11/44 cannot have FIS. (Jeez, don't you know anything? :-) ) The FIS was an early floating point implementation which only exists for the 11/35, 11/40 and 11/03. All others use some variant of the FPP-11. Different opcodes, different data formats, different just about everything. RSTS/E in late versions use MOVC if it exists, to move data around in the kernel. RSX never use CIS in the kernel. Neither FORTRAN IV, FORTRAN 77, PDP-11, nor BASIC+2 uses CIS. They will all use FPP however, if it exists. FORTRAN IV can also use FIS, if I remember right. I don't think DIBOL uses CIS, but I'm not entirely sure. COBOL uses CIS if it exists, however. Of course an assembler programmer can use CIS if he wants to. :-) EAE is another beast, and one which any Unibus cpu probably can use, since it's not really an addition to the CPU, but actually a peripherial. Not much point in it, however, atleast not if you have EIS. Since that does more, better and faster than EAE. It was mostly something used in the 11/20 and 11/15. And e11 V5 actually have the 11/74 implemented, along with the other stuff needed for multiprocessor PDP-11s. And it works, even if it is a bit tricky to set up, and not really documented any good. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From kth at srv.net Fri Feb 10 18:30:47 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:30:47 -0700 Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: <43ED274F.9060506@update.uu.se> References: <200602102209.k1AM9A8P046603@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43ED274F.9060506@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <43ED3037.2050309@srv.net> Johnny Billquist wrote: > RSTS/E in late versions use MOVC if it exists, to move data around in > the kernel. RSX never use CIS in the kernel. > Neither FORTRAN IV, FORTRAN 77, PDP-11, nor BASIC+2 uses CIS. They > will all use FPP however, if it exists. FORTRAN IV can also use FIS, > if I remember right. > I don't think DIBOL uses CIS, but I'm not entirely sure. COBOL uses > CIS if it exists, however. > From what I remember, I believe that dibol requires it. I don't think it can run without it. Had a customer with an 11/24(?) running a commercial Dibol accounting applications. That software didn't use RMS because "it was too slow". Spend a lot of time repairing the database, fixing slow searches (1/2 hour to check if a new PO number was already in use), and data fields that were too small (max $99,999.99 in the General Ledger). Modified all programs to use an "include" instead of having the file layouts hard coded into every program, with weird extra add-on programs to update the layouts. When the number of deleted records in the customer file hit a certain limit, it automagically resequenced it, using the assumption that the key file and the data file were in the same order. They wern't. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 10 18:48:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:48:40 -0700 Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:30:47 -0700. <43ED3037.2050309@srv.net> Message-ID: In article <43ED3037.2050309 at srv.net>, Kevin Handy writes: > From what I remember, I believe that dibol requires it. Interesting! I'll have to check my 11/03 CPU board. Is the chip explicitly labelled CIS? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Feb 10 19:44:58 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 17:44:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: GPIB-to-USB In-Reply-To: <20060210143322.N18670@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Feb 10, 6 02:37:10 pm" Message-ID: <200602110144.RAA20914@floodgap.com> > There are people using some of the cheap Commodore drives with PC parallel > ports. (is that using the IEC port of the drive? is it still called > IEC?) Yes, that's the official name, though to make it more confusing, most Commodore geeks call it just "the serial bus." Unfortunately, I don't know of an IEC-based drive that can read an 8050 disk, let alone an 8250 one. The 1541/1571 *can* read 4040 format (from the 4040 and the 2031), but you should never write to one because of the slight differences in write gap in the respective GCR headers the drives lay down. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Surrender" from "Tomorrow Never Dies" ------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 10 19:31:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 01:31:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: <43EC04C7.7030705@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Feb 9, 6 09:13:11 pm Message-ID: > I have no idea where to get a sheet of acrylic let alone know how to cut > it :-) I have no idea where you've get it in the State, but I assume cutting it is much the same in all countries :-) I'd use a fine-toothed hacksaw blade. One trick that avoids chatter is to stick a piece of sellotape [1] along the lind of the cut on both sides, and to cut through it. [1] Does that term make sense? It's a brand-name-that-became-generic for slef-adhexive plastic tape, normally used to stick paper together, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 10 19:38:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 01:38:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sirius 1 (aka Victor 9000) on Ebay (UK) In-Reply-To: <20060210065337.95399.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 9, 6 10:53:36 pm Message-ID: > > what you get someone whos got everything else. Or at > least every other IBM incompatible on the planet (ok > Im not quite there). Also a must for the truly > masochistic (gcr floppies). What every guru/sicko The hardware is a bit odd... It clearly shows the Chuck Peddle influence, it's full of 6522s (3 on the mainboard, 3 on the disk controller), and the disk read/write circuit is very similar to that in a Commodore PET drive... A couple of odd things. Firstly, the Centronics port is driven by GPIB buffers (75160 and I think 75162). A 'little matter of programming' and the right cable would get you a GPIB port there, Then there's the user port. A 50 pin header on the mainboard. It's almost a complete 6522 (I think one of the port lines is used to clock the sound circuitry), along with a light pen input and power lines. Odd.... And the sound iput. THe encoding half of the codec is wired to the receive side of the 6852. The input to that codec comes from a pin on header on the mainbosrd (along with power lines, ground, etc). It would not be hard to feed an audio signal in there, the hard part would be to write/find the necessary software.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 10 19:43:56 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 01:43:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: <200602101115.16908.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Feb 10, 6 11:15:16 am Message-ID: > I have several instances where I wanted to mount a small drive in a large > drive bay, and a bunch of those adapters that I've gotten from different > sources. In some cases they worked out just fine. In some others, they > were obviously "floppy" adapters and the screw holes were just in the wrong > place to work with any HD I had on hand here... The obvious cure for that involves a set of twist drill bits :-). [Before soembody does a very silly thing, I am suggesting drilling extra holes in the adapter bracket, not the drive...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 10 19:21:05 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 01:21:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: GPIB-to-USB In-Reply-To: <43EBCF03.5080108@mcdermith.net> from "Bill McDermith" at Feb 9, 6 04:23:47 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> I know that there are a number of HP enthusiasts here. This item was in > >> the current EDN online and I thought it might interest someone: > >> > >> http://www.edn.com/article/CA6290453.html?spacedesc=designideas > >> > > > > >From the subject: line, I asusme this is a device to link GPIB > > peripherals to a USB host, and not the much more useful (to me) interface > > to link USB peripherals to an HPIB controller... > > > > -tony > > > Well, the article looked like they used 75160/75161 as the GPIB bus > driver pair. IIRC, if you used > 75160/75162, then the HPIB side could be a bus controller. Of course, I thought the GPIB side already was a controller. Surely it's not a mailbox (to use the HP terminology) to link a GPIB controller to a USB host. I thought you could use the 75161 as the control buffer for a controller, btu there was something you couldn't then do (is it pass control to another device ?) But I would have to check the data sheet to be sure. > the hardware here is very > simple, and all the smarts are in the microcontroller, so though a > "Simple Matter Of Programming" > you could have commands from the HPIB going on to USB peripherals or > reverse with the original > hardware, or you could have a master on the HPIB bus with the other > driver chip... My worry is in the very asymmetric (logically) nature of the USB interface. I haven't really looked at it, but I've got the impression that moat of the micorcotnrollers with USB interfaces can only be used as slave devices, and that rather more smarts are needs to make a host. If not, and you can use one of these microcontrollers to talk to USB peripherals, I am going to have to give it a go. > mode, so you still only > get 12MBPS) As if that would be a problem in this application :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 10 19:48:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 01:48:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Date on STK7551 regulator? In-Reply-To: <20060210233247.WCZY18394.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Feb 10, 6 06:33:46 pm Message-ID: > > > Does anyone have, or know of a source of, data on the STK7551? > > > > This is a hybrid circuit, designed to mount onto a heatsink. It's got 16 > > (or so) connectons on oen edge, which are soldered to the PCB. > > > > What I know : > > > -Tony > > Tony, > > I think this date is in japanese semiconductor date format. I really should check my typing... the Subject: line should have been 'DATA on the STK7551' Anyway, Chuck (I think) pointed me at the STK755 series. These may be functional replacements, but they surely are not pin compatible (the 7551 has 16 pins, the 755 has 15, and no, it's not just one left off at one end). But I also found a data shert on the STK7554 on digchip. I couldn't read much of it (I don't read Japanese), but at least the pinout was in English, and at least some of the pins match up. So that might be a start. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 10 19:51:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 01:51:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE231D@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Feb 10, 6 08:44:13 pm Message-ID: > > now you got me thinking, Zane. > I have FIS in my 11/44, and I am not sure I have CIS either installed > in the /44, or the module is somewhere, or I passed on it for the same > reason I did not install the CIS chip in the QBUS-based 11. > My 11/35 OTOH does have FIS and CIS (and MMU plus SLR), but Surely you mean EIS and FIS here. AFAIK CIS was never available for the 11/35 Qlso be warned that FIS (Floating point Instruction Set) is not the same as the FPU, it's not even software compatible with it. And I sometimes whish I had the CIS option in my 11/44. I don't like empty slots :-). IIRC it's 2 boards, a hex and a quad . -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 10 19:27:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 01:27:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150-II In-Reply-To: <20060210001630.97443.qmail@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 9, 6 04:16:30 pm Message-ID: > > > [1] What a kludge. The 150-II has an 8088 on the > > mainboard, used in > > 'minimum mode', which means some of the coprocessor > > signals are not > > available. The coprocessor card contains an 8088 in > > 'maximum mode', the > > 8087 and some interface logic. It disables the 8088 > > on the mainboard.... > > what's the purpose of the coprocessor card (other > then adapting an 8087 to the system)? Is the 2nd 8088 The trivial anwaer is 'to add a maths coprocessor' :-) > only there so that an 8087 CAN be accomodated (a min > mode 8088 disallows any other processors on the bus)? My inital thoguth was that the machine was designed without thinking of the comprocessor, so the 8088 was used in minimum mode. Since that can't support a coprocoessor, and since the changes to the interface logic between the 8088 and the system buses are considerable if you change it to maximum mode, the only sane thing to do is to put another 8088 on the card, run that in maximum mode, add the logic too, and disable the one on the mainboard so that the 8088 on the coprocessor card takes over. The only problem with that theory is that all 150-IIs have the coprrocessor board connector. IMHO it would have been simpler to put the logic on the mainboard, run that 8088 in maximum mode, and just have a socket for the 8087 (like on an IBM PC). Another explanationg that breaks down is that they wanted to keep the circuitry from the origianl 150 (which never officially accepted a coprocessor). Problem with that idea is that so much of the machine was redesigned going to the 150-II, it would have been easy to redesign this bit too. Who knows? Incindentally, doea anyone (else) have an HP150-II with na Elmer board? The story of that is that one of the gate arrays -- codenamed Elmer -- wasn't finished in time, so early machines have a PCB containing standard chips (real time clock, baud rate generator, TTL for the handsahke line ports, etc) in place of it. It's the same sort of size as the 8087 board, and fits alongside it (standing vertically). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 10 20:24:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 18:24:43 -0800 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602101824430720.7DA16C85@10.0.0.252> On 2/11/2006 at 1:31 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >[1] Does that term make sense? It's a brand-name-that-became-generic for >slef-adhexive plastic tape, normally used to stick paper together, etc. Usually referred to here as "Scotch Tape", although it doesn't taste the least like alcoholic spirits. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 10 21:10:10 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 19:10:10 -0800 Subject: Date on STK7551 regulator? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602101910100266.7DCB068F@10.0.0.252> On 2/11/2006 at 1:48 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >But I also found a data shert on the STK7554 on digchip. I >couldn't read much of it (I don't read Japanese), but at least the >pinout was in English, and at least some of the pins match up. So that >might be a start. The Sanyo hybrids are strange devices regarding nomenclature. I had an STK4541 (no suffix) go toes up on an amplifier here. Scouting around yeilded sources for an STK4541II and a STK4541V. No clue as to what's different. I ordered a 4541II, put it in and it works. Was there an III and IV? No idea--a google finds no mention of them. But I still don't have a clue--if it'll put in another 16 years, I won't complain too much. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Feb 10 21:42:22 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 22:42:22 -0500 Subject: Need some information on a DEC machine References: <200602101910100266.7DCB068F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <001e01c62ebd$2b399b10$72781941@game> A friend of mine recently found a DECpc XL 590 and is looking for information on it. Do DEC manuals for these system exist in PDF format? The machine appears to be a dual Pentium I machine but only came with a single P90 in it. Can these be upgraded to Alphas by chance? From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Feb 10 22:07:05 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 20:07:05 -0800 Subject: Need some information on a DEC machine In-Reply-To: <001e01c62ebd$2b399b10$72781941@game> References: <200602101910100266.7DCB068F@10.0.0.252> <001e01c62ebd$2b399b10$72781941@game> Message-ID: >A friend of mine recently found a DECpc XL 590 and is looking for >information on it. Do DEC manuals for these system exist in PDF format? The >machine appears to be a dual Pentium I machine but only came with a single >P90 in it. Can these be upgraded to Alphas by chance? Manuals might exist somewhere in PDF format, it's old enough that it might be on the DEC MDS CD's that used to be online somewhere or another. It can't be upgraded to an Alpha. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sat Feb 11 01:32:06 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 23:32:06 -0800 Subject: SIMMS and other memory dongles In-Reply-To: References: <5a7e0ed1ec36401c8d0d5867a7e6a0ec@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: Wow, January 31. Due to the talk-to-tech delay, this might have been answered already, but here goes... > Is there an easy way to spot the size of the SIMM? I don't have chip > numbers memorized. For 72 pin SIMMS, the installed jumper (0 ohm) resistors usually tell the story on size and speed. The key I have says jumpers J1 and J2 are the size. J3 and J4 are the speed. ..00 60ns ..10 70ns ..01 80ns ..11 50 or 100ns. 00.. 8MB 10.. 1MB or 16MB 01.. 2MB or 32MB 11.. 4MB or 64MB If there are only two jumpers on your SIMM it's probably a 60ns SIMM. You can usually guess whether it's parity or not by chip count. If pin 19 is connected, it's probably the larger of the two options. I don't know how to identify smaller SIMMS (128K and 512K 72-pin SIMMS apparently existed, Maybe J0 and J5 which are identified in some data sheets, but I've never seen a SIMM with jumpers for them.) For 30 pin SIMMS you'll probably need to look at the chips. Most of the time there's an obvious sign of the size (a 256 or 512 in the part number.) From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sat Feb 11 01:32:06 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 23:32:06 -0800 Subject: SIMMS and other memory dongles In-Reply-To: References: <5a7e0ed1ec36401c8d0d5867a7e6a0ec@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: Wow, January 31. Due to the talk-to-tech delay, this might have been answered already, but here goes... > Is there an easy way to spot the size of the SIMM? I don't have chip > numbers memorized. For 72 pin SIMMS, the installed jumper (0 ohm) resistors usually tell the story on size and speed. The key I have says jumpers J1 and J2 are the size. J3 and J4 are the speed. ..00 60ns ..10 70ns ..01 80ns ..11 50 or 100ns. 00.. 8MB 10.. 1MB or 16MB 01.. 2MB or 32MB 11.. 4MB or 64MB If there are only two jumpers on your SIMM it's probably a 60ns SIMM. You can usually guess whether it's parity or not by chip count. If pin 19 is connected, it's probably the larger of the two options. I don't know how to identify smaller SIMMS (128K and 512K 72-pin SIMMS apparently existed, Maybe J0 and J5 which are identified in some data sheets, but I've never seen a SIMM with jumpers for them.) For 30 pin SIMMS you'll probably need to look at the chips. Most of the time there's an obvious sign of the size (a 256 or 512 in the part number.) From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Feb 11 02:24:30 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 02:24:30 -0600 Subject: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions? Message-ID: <43ED9F3E.7070304@oldskool.org> I discovered tonight that the right-most ISA slot (the one closest to the power supply) in my newly-unearthed 5160 won't take the Silicon Valley Computer ADP50L IDE controller I'm playing with. It will take other (very short!) cards, but when I put the IDE controller into it, either the option ROM is invisible (ie. 55AA not found) or won't initialize for some reason, because I don't get functionality out of it (least of all, the boot "banner" produced by the card is missing). I can only conclude that: 1. The IDE board is slightly awry 2. The right-most ISA slot is slightly awry 3. There is some technical limitation I'm not aware of #1 and #2 are easy to accept, but not #3. Is there such a limitation? I remember that some of the very first PCI Pentium boards (circa 1994-1995) would only take PCI video cards in one particular PCI slot, so maybe that's where I'm pulling this from... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Feb 11 03:20:10 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 03:20:10 -0600 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: <200602100925540120.7BB41EA2@10.0.0.252> References: <43EBDC09.2080203@oldskool.org> <200602091630230231.7812676F@10.0.0.252> <200602101115.16908.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200602100925540120.7BB41EA2@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43EDAC4A.4070106@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > There are obviously adapters, and then there are adapters. I pefer the > ones that are a complete tray, rather than just two U-shaped pieces, as the > tray type usually includes bottom-mount holes for drives, which, AFAIK, > will always work. Follow-up: I received some very nice offers, but after some basement-diving I was able to unearth a pair. They were obviously meant for floppy drives, but they will suffice. (I found a pair specifically for hard drives because they had many more holes on the bottom, including one that lined up perfectly with that bizarre recessed-by-an-inch hole in the bottom of the case, but they curl upward and prevent the front black front panel from fitting so I set those aside.) Now that I've got it all nice and tightly mounted, I have found that the ADP50L, for some dumb reason I obviously didn't test throroughly enough to notice, won't boot the machine from the drive. You can boot from a floppy and interact with the drive just fine, but it won't boot from that controller. It has a BIOS, so WTF? Argh!! I will probably stick the Data Tech MFM controller/ST-225 combo back in just so I can boot it without floppies, then jumper the IDE controller to an alternate ROM address and hope I can see both of them... I'll also get that panel back on in the process :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Feb 11 03:13:15 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 09:13:15 +0000 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 11 Feb 2006 01:31:09 GMT." Message-ID: <200602110913.JAA00601@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: > > I have no idea where to get a sheet of acrylic let alone know how to cut > > it :-) > > I have no idea where you've get it in the State, but I assume cutting it > is much the same in all countries :-) > > I'd use a fine-toothed hacksaw blade. One trick that avoids chatter is to > stick a piece of sellotape [1] along the lind of the cut on both sides, > and to cut through it. I've cut a *lot* of this stuff over the years. A hacksaw blade works fine, and you can even buy a handle that holds a hacksaw blade to make it easier. Difficult curves can be cut with a fret saw or a scroll saw. A little candle wax on the blade helps lube it. If you saw too fast the acrylic will melt locally and stick to the blade, so go slowly. Also don't cut it when it's very cold, it's prone to shatter, leave it to stand in a warm room for a while in cold weather. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Feb 11 05:25:01 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 06:25:01 -0500 Subject: CNET artical on ENIAC Message-ID: <20060211112503.ZKEZ17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Case anyone here is interested - CNET will be publishing an artical on the ENIAC on news.com monday morning. I'm told it will contain 15 minutes of video on the ENIAC and it's creators, as well as a gallery of historic computers. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sat Feb 11 06:21:53 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:21:53 +0100 Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE231E@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Yes, I stand corrected. I should have written EIS, Extended Instruction Set. And as Billy points out, FIS is *not* FP11-x or FPP-x. I might have taken a bit more time to write it down correct the first time. OTOH, this is a thread worthy of CC, which is not always the case :-) have a nice weekend, - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Tom Uban Verzonden: vr 10-02-2006 20:58 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: RE: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) At 08:44 PM 2/10/2006 +0100, you wrote: >now you got me thinking, Zane. >I have FIS in my 11/44, and I am not sure I have CIS either installed >in the /44, or the module is somewhere, or I passed on it for the same >reason I did not install the CIS chip in the QBUS-based 11. >My 11/35 OTOH does have FIS and CIS (and MMU plus SLR), but Do you mean EIS (M7238) instead of CIS here? --tom >that's just to have a complete CPU with *all* options :-) > >- Henk. > >________________________________ > >Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Zane H. Healy >Verzonden: vr 10-02-2006 20:27 >Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Onderwerp: Re: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) > > > > > > > Speaking of CIS, can anyone point me to a good document as to what the > > benefits of CIS are? I've often wondered what this is about, as it's a > > plug-in chip on my 11/23+ > > > >As I recall, it's for *business* computing, rather than *scientific* >computing. I think it speeds up Cobol, and maybe some other stuff. > >Out of *all* of my PDP-11's, the only system I have with the CIS option is a >/23+. I rather wish I had it for my /44, though I don't actually need it >:^) > > Zane > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sat Feb 11 06:42:28 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:42:28 +0100 Subject: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE231F@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Yes, I read that 11/74 is in the newest release of E11, and that you have put in a lot of good work together with John. But I have never looked into the possibility to connect switches and lights to work with E11. (I did built the 16 LEDs connected to the parallel printer port, but that is not a "complete" panel). In SIMH, I can hack around to connect what I want :-) E11, from V4, provides hooks, but as said, I did not dive into that. - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Johnny Billquist Verzonden: za 11-02-2006 00:52 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel) And e11 V5 actually have the 11/74 implemented, along with the other stuff needed for multiprocessor PDP-11s. And it works, even if it is a bit tricky to set up, and not really documented any good. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From dzubint at vcn.bc.ca Sat Feb 11 06:51:07 2006 From: dzubint at vcn.bc.ca (Thomas Dzubin) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 04:51:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Kaypro 10 on TV sitcom last night (Feb 2006) Message-ID: Hmmmm...I never thought that I'd see classic computers on modern TV shows or movies anymore, but in the third-to-last episode of "Arrested Development" (sitcom) last night on FOX, a Kaypro 10 held the secret to a pivotal plot element. There were a whole bunch of classic computers shown including a Commodore PET. From shirsch at adelphia.net Sat Feb 11 07:38:02 2006 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 08:38:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM RS/6000 In-Reply-To: <43E20A0C.3070106@gmail.com> References: <43E20A0C.3070106@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Feb 2006, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > > > > To the best of my knowledge, the only difference between an RS6K and PC/AT > > style keyboard is the presence of an internal speaker on the former. > > AFAICR, there's some scan code difference. And it's not the AT keyboard it's > similar to. It's the PS/2 keyboard. Hmm. Never tripped over this, then. After an office move at work, I called the service folks to figure out why the internal speaker on my Risc 390H had stopped working. Yes, you guessed it, I had crossed up the keyboards between my Intel box and the RS/6K. If there were scan-code differences, I never encountered them. Steve From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Feb 11 07:56:43 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 08:56:43 -0500 Subject: DIBOL (was: What's CIS for? (was RE: Original 11/74 front panel)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060211135643.3EBEA1040008@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Richard wrote: > In article <200602102104.k1AL4jY6017614 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, > Brad Parker writes: > > > I thought DIBOL used it also. > > Wow, someone mentioned DIBOL :-). > > My 11/03 came with a DIBOL manual and apparently there are some .DBL > files sprinkled around the disk packs (I haven't inventoried them > completely yet). > > I hadn't heard of DIBOL until I got this system, probably because we > didn't have it for our 11/70 and I never cared for COBOL anyway :-). DIBOL lives on... significant chunks of large car reservation systems are still written and maintained in it, one of the more recent upgrades including TCP/IP networking to other back-end systems. Under VMS, DIBOL makes most excellent use of descriptors in calling system services etc. IMHO it is even more "natural" feeling than MACRO or BLISS. DIBOL is like COBOL in the same way that a BMW is like a Steam Locomotive. Tim. From lee at geekdot.com Sat Feb 11 07:57:44 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (lee at geekdot.com) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 14:57:44 +0100 (CET) Subject: OT: Kaypro 10 on TV sitcom last night (Feb 2006) Message-ID: <4935.86.139.194.172.1139666264.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > There were a whole bunch of classic computers shown including a > Commodore PET. The sitcom 'IT Crowd' on Channel 4 in the UK features quite a lot of classic computing equipment as scenery, including a Commodore PET. http://www.channel4.com/entertainment/tv/microsites/I/itcrowd/ Lee. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Feb 11 08:51:40 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 08:51:40 -0600 Subject: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions? In-Reply-To: <43ED9F3E.7070304@oldskool.org> References: <43ED9F3E.7070304@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43EDF9FC.3070603@brutman.com> From the XT Technical Reference: "Timing requirements on slot J8 are much stricter than those on slots J1 through J7. Slot J8 also requires the card to provide a signal designating when the card is selected." Traditionally that slot was populated by the asynch card, which probably meets the requirements. It's possible that your IDE card is either off on the timing or doesn't have the card select that the XT needs. From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 11 11:04:04 2006 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 09:04:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: CNET artical on ENIAC In-Reply-To: <200602111256.k1BCtj3s057003@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20060211170404.64112.qmail@web50501.mail.yahoo.com> > Case anyone here is interested - CNET will be publishing an > artical on the ENIAC on news.com monday morning. I'm told it > will contain 15 minutes of video on the ENIAC and it's creators, > as well as a gallery of historic computers. Please post the URL after they post that. Otherwise, I will likely forget. Thanks, Bill __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Feb 11 11:46:36 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 11:46:36 -0600 Subject: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions? In-Reply-To: <43ED9F3E.7070304@oldskool.org> References: <43ED9F3E.7070304@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43EE22FC.70706@mdrconsult.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > I discovered tonight that the right-most ISA slot (the one closest to > the power supply) in my newly-unearthed 5160 won't take the Silicon > Valley Computer ADP50L IDE controller I'm playing with. It will take > other (very short!) cards, but when I put the IDE controller into it, > either the option ROM is invisible (ie. 55AA not found) or won't > initialize for some reason, because I don't get functionality out of it > (least of all, the boot "banner" produced by the card is missing). > > I can only conclude that: > > 1. The IDE board is slightly awry > 2. The right-most ISA slot is slightly awry > 3. There is some technical limitation I'm not aware of > > #1 and #2 are easy to accept, but not #3. Is there such a limitation? I think that there is. I have a Western Digital XT-150 IDE-XT adapter, and WD's docs specifically state that "for IBM XT owners", the card cannot be placed in the slot nearest the PSU. This also applies to the WD XT-140. I have no idea why that restriction exists; I just remembered seeing it in the XT-150 docs. Doc From news at computercollector.com Sat Feb 11 12:26:42 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:26:42 -0500 Subject: CNET artical on ENIAC In-Reply-To: <20060211112503.ZKEZ17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <002f01c62f38$b56161d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Ah here we go -- ENIAC was announced 60 years ago on Feb 14. http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~museum/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 6:25 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: CNET artical on ENIAC Case anyone here is interested - CNET will be publishing an artical on the ENIAC on news.com monday morning. I'm told it will contain 15 minutes of video on the ENIAC and it's creators, as well as a gallery of historic computers. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Feb 11 12:30:55 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:30:55 -0500 Subject: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions? In-Reply-To: <43EE22FC.70706@mdrconsult.com> References: <43ED9F3E.7070304@oldskool.org> <43EE22FC.70706@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43EE2D5F.90209@atarimuseum.com> The old rule of thumb (or wifes tale) was on the original PC and XT's it was best to put all the high bandwidth adapters closer towards the power supply like the Memory, then the MFM, RLL, and SCSI controllers, followed by networking and video, then parallel and serial cards... Do you have another system to test your card in, perhaps it is the card or it could be a conflicting mem i/o setting? Curt Doc Shipley wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: >> I discovered tonight that the right-most ISA slot (the one closest to >> the power supply) in my newly-unearthed 5160 won't take the Silicon >> Valley Computer ADP50L IDE controller I'm playing with. It will take >> other (very short!) cards, but when I put the IDE controller into it, >> either the option ROM is invisible (ie. 55AA not found) or won't >> initialize for some reason, because I don't get functionality out of >> it (least of all, the boot "banner" produced by the card is missing). >> >> I can only conclude that: >> >> 1. The IDE board is slightly awry >> 2. The right-most ISA slot is slightly awry >> 3. There is some technical limitation I'm not aware of >> >> #1 and #2 are easy to accept, but not #3. Is there such a limitation? > > I think that there is. I have a Western Digital XT-150 IDE-XT > adapter, and WD's docs specifically state that "for IBM XT owners", > the card cannot be placed in the slot nearest the PSU. This also > applies to the WD XT-140. > > I have no idea why that restriction exists; I just remembered seeing > it in the XT-150 docs. > > > Doc > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.6/257 - Release Date: 2/10/2006 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 11 12:48:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 10:48:02 -0800 Subject: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions? In-Reply-To: <43ED9F3E.7070304@oldskool.org> References: <43ED9F3E.7070304@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200602111048020765.8125A983@10.0.0.252> On 2/11/2006 at 2:24 AM Jim Leonard wrote: >I can only conclude that: > >1. The IDE board is slightly awry >2. The right-most ISA slot is slightly awry >3. There is some technical limitation I'm not aware of > >#1 and #2 are easy to accept, but not #3. Is there such a limitation? Yes. The 8th card slot on the XT is "different" in its timings. Mostly meant for certain specific cards; I've got a bunch of old documentation for add-in cards that say they won't work in that slot. Offhand, I can't recall which cards work there, but a guess might be a memory expansion card. Cheers, Chuck From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Feb 11 12:51:16 2006 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:51:16 -0500 Subject: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions? In-Reply-To: <200602111048020765.8125A983@10.0.0.252> References: <43ED9F3E.7070304@oldskool.org> <200602111048020765.8125A983@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060211134858.02342ae0@earthlink.net> the timing was different for use with the expansion chassis adapter card. Probably to account for the associated delays times with extra buffers that would have been required for the cable connect between the two boxes. best regards, Steve Thatcher At 01:48 PM 2/11/2006, you wrote: >On 2/11/2006 at 2:24 AM Jim Leonard wrote: > > >I can only conclude that: > > > >1. The IDE board is slightly awry > >2. The right-most ISA slot is slightly awry > >3. There is some technical limitation I'm not aware of > > > >#1 and #2 are easy to accept, but not #3. Is there such a limitation? > >Yes. The 8th card slot on the XT is "different" in its timings. Mostly >meant for certain specific cards; I've got a bunch of old documentation for >add-in cards that say they won't work in that slot. Offhand, I can't >recall which cards work there, but a guess might be a memory expansion >card. > >Cheers, >Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 11 12:55:56 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 11:55:56 -0700 Subject: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:51:16 -0500. <7.0.1.0.2.20060211134858.02342ae0@earthlink.net> Message-ID: In article <7.0.1.0.2.20060211134858.02342ae0 at earthlink.net>, Steve Thatcher writes: > the timing was different for use with the expansion chassis adapter > card. I have one of these cards if anyone wants it! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 11 14:18:42 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:18:42 -0700 Subject: eBay Item Not Won: Vintage Digital DECWriter IV terminal, DEC, serial (8761560822) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 11 Feb 2006 11:48:45 -0800. <660188001.1139687325930.JavaMail.ebayapp@sj-besreco007> Message-ID: Umm... is this really the typical going price for a DECWriter IV, or is it another ebay frenzy? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From news at computercollector.com Sat Feb 11 14:23:49 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 15:23:49 -0500 Subject: Announcing a VCF keynote speaker... Message-ID: <006d01c62f49$11f031f0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> We confirmed a keynote by Steve Lukasik this morning. Steve was director of ARPA in the first half of the 1970s when ARPAnet was happening. He also actually trained at Camp Evans in the 1950s. (Camp Evans was the Army's name for what is now InfoAge, which is our venue.) Also trying to get someone from Lucent (Bell Labs), someone from IBM, maybe someone from Penn (because of ENIAC etc.) ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 11 14:56:08 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 20:56:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions? In-Reply-To: <43ED9F3E.7070304@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Feb 11, 6 02:24:30 am Message-ID: > > I discovered tonight that the right-most ISA slot (the one closest to > the power supply) in my newly-unearthed 5160 won't take the Silicon > Valley Computer ADP50L IDE controller I'm playing with. It will take > other (very short!) cards, but when I put the IDE controller into it, > either the option ROM is invisible (ie. 55AA not found) or won't > initialize for some reason, because I don't get functionality out of it > (least of all, the boot "banner" produced by the card is missing). > > I can only conclude that: > > 1. The IDE board is slightly awry > 2. The right-most ISA slot is slightly awry > 3. There is some technical limitation I'm not aware of > > #1 and #2 are easy to accept, but not #3. Is there such a limitation? Yes, it's more (3) than (2). There is no fault with your particular board. For some reason, the data lines on slot 8 are wired to the other side of a bus buffer chip to the data lines on the other 7 slots. A card in slot 8, therefore, has to assert a special signal on the ISA connector to enable this buffer -- my memory says it's that it must pull pin B8 low during a read access to any device on that card. The IBM Async card could do this (fit an unmarked jumper on the board). Some Microsoft mouse interface cards did this too. I homebuilt one card that did it (I needed it to go in slot 8 of an XT). AFAIK no other cards do. -tony From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Feb 11 15:26:26 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 15:26:26 -0600 Subject: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43EE5682.7080802@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > For some reason, the data lines on slot 8 are wired to the other side of > a bus buffer chip to the data lines on the other 7 slots. A card in slot > 8, therefore, has to assert a special signal on the ISA connector to > enable this buffer -- my memory says it's that it must pull pin B8 low > during a read access to any device on that card. Thanks to everyone for the information! I was *not* expecting that slot 8 really was special, but empirical evidence was telling me otherwise. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 11 15:29:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:29:42 -0800 Subject: eBay Item Not Won: Vintage Digital DECWriter IV terminal, DEC, serial (8761560822) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602111329420708.81B9B28B@10.0.0.252> On 2/11/2006 at 1:18 PM Richard wrote: >Umm... is this really the typical going price for a DECWriter IV, >or is it another ebay frenzy? It wasn't the DECWriter, it was the two free ribbons that drove the price up. Maybe it was the "white" color--but weren't these things painted at the factory? If color was that important, seems like $3 for an aerosol can of the appropriate paint might be a better deal. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Feb 11 15:43:16 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 16:43:16 -0500 Subject: eBay Item Not Won: Vintage Digital DECWriter IV terminal, DEC, serial (8761560822) In-Reply-To: <200602111329420708.81B9B28B@10.0.0.252> References: <200602111329420708.81B9B28B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200602111643.17018.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 11 February 2006 16:29, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2/11/2006 at 1:18 PM Richard wrote: > >Umm... is this really the typical going price for a DECWriter IV, > >or is it another ebay frenzy? > > It wasn't the DECWriter, it was the two free ribbons that drove the price > up. Maybe it was the "white" color--but weren't these things painted at > the factory? If color was that important, seems like $3 for an aerosol > can of the appropriate paint might be a better deal. I hope it wasn't because of the ribbons; about two years ago when I got my (first) DW4, I spent $20-25 at the local office supply store to get a pair of new ribbons for it. They had to be special ordered, but it wasn't all *that* expensive. That it's actually working is more impressive to me; I have had 2 for 2 with symptoms of a bad power supply. The latest one (which I still have) is waiting patiently for me to have time to fix it. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From CCTalk at catcorner.org Sat Feb 11 16:01:05 2006 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:01:05 -0500 Subject: Tandy Xenix disk images Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A337B6@mail.catcorner.org> I have started making images of the Tandy 3.2 Xenix install disks. Right now the first two disks are in "catweasel" .dmk format on http://www.catcorner.org/Xenix If anyone needs them, download them and give them a try. Let me know which works. The second image of the second disk is a single sided image, which should be all you really need. Kelly From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 11 16:23:02 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 14:23:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060211141719.C83227@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 11 Feb 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > For some reason, the data lines on slot 8 are wired to the other side of > a bus buffer chip to the data lines on the other 7 slots. A card in slot > 8, therefore, has to assert a special signal on the ISA connector to > enable this buffer -- my memory says it's that it must pull pin B8 low > during a read access to any device on that card. > The IBM Async card could do this (fit an unmarked jumper on the board). > Some Microsoft mouse interface cards did this too. I homebuilt one card > that did it (I needed it to go in slot 8 of an XT). AFAIK no other cards do. We don't know what IBM ORIGINALLY intended to do with that slot. Whatever it was, might not have ever happened. When the XT came out, IBM did not want people to plug other boards in there. They also had a horrendous surplus of some boards, such as the Asynch (RS232 & 20mA), due to the popularity of "multifunction" boards. So the XT was sold with a "FREE" Asynch board already installed in slot 8. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 11 16:27:17 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 14:27:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060211142635.T83227@shell.lmi.net> > > were obviously "floppy" adapters and the screw holes were just in the wrong > > place to work with any HD I had on hand here... On Sat, 11 Feb 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > The obvious cure for that involves a set of twist drill bits :-). > [Before soembody does a very silly thing, I am suggesting drilling extra > holes in the adapter bracket, not the drive...) ... and take the drive out of the adapter while drilling From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 11 16:31:20 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 14:31:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: <200602101824430720.7DA16C85@10.0.0.252> References: <200602101824430720.7DA16C85@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060211142926.B83227@shell.lmi.net> > >[1] Does that term make sense? It's a brand-name-that-became-generic for > >slef-adhexive plastic tape, normally used to stick paper together, etc. On Fri, 10 Feb 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Usually referred to here as "Scotch Tape", although it doesn't taste the > least like alcoholic spirits. "Scotch Tape" was a trademark (poorly enforced) of 3M (Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing) From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 11 16:45:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 14:45:51 -0800 Subject: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions? In-Reply-To: <20060211141719.C83227@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060211141719.C83227@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200602111445510052.81FF6776@10.0.0.252> On 2/11/2006 at 2:23 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >When the XT came out, IBM did not want people to plug other boards in >there. They also had a horrendous surplus of some boards, such as the >Asynch (RS232 & 20mA), due to the popularity of "multifunction" boards. >So the XT was sold with a "FREE" Asynch board already installed in slot 8. Under "puzzles for the ages", one might also wonder what the IBM was thinking when they added the 20ma current loop circuitry to the board. Did they really think that folks were going to use them to drive an ASR 33? Or that RS232-to-current loop adapters were hard to obtain? Cheers, Chuck From CCTalk at catcorner.org Sat Feb 11 16:46:07 2006 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:46:07 -0500 Subject: Tandy Xenix disk images Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A337B7@mail.catcorner.org> > > I have started making images of the Tandy 3.2 Xenix install > disks. Right now > the first two disks are in "catweasel" .dmk format on > http://www.catcorner.org/Xenix > > If anyone needs them, download them and give them a try. Let > me know which > works. The second image of the second disk is a single sided > image, which > should be all you really need. > > Kelly > FWIW the complete OS install set is now uploaded. How long before M$ jumps on me for this... Remember when a base Xenix install took less than 6 meg!!! Kelly From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 11 17:22:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 23:22:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions? In-Reply-To: <200602111445510052.81FF6776@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 11, 6 02:45:51 pm Message-ID: > Under "puzzles for the ages", one might also wonder what the IBM was > thinking when they added the 20ma current loop circuitry to the board. Did > they really think that folks were going to use them to drive an ASR 33? Or > that RS232-to-current loop adapters were hard to obtain? A few random guesses (as I haev said before, you can find out _what_ was done (e.g. by looking at schemaitcs or listings), but not in general _why_) 1) The IBM PC had similar design ideas to the Apple ][ (open machine, basic/cassette port, etc). One of the early Apple ][ serial boards had a current loop intenrface (and the manual for that _did_ describe how to connect it to an ASR33) 2) IIRC IBM made some current loop printers. A friend of mine has a System 23 (Datamaster), I seem to remember the printer on that has a current loop interface 3) There were other current loop devices around, maybe the extra circuitry was added for people who wanted to use thoase Why have to bother with an ecternal converter unit? -tony From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 11 17:44:33 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 16:44:33 -0700 Subject: eBay Item Not Won: Vintage Digital DECWriter IV terminal, DEC, serial (8761560822) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:18:42 -0700. Message-ID: I forgot to mention it sold for $260 + shipping. It seemed a little pricey to me. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 11 17:46:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 16:46:30 -0700 Subject: Current loop interface (was: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 11 Feb 2006 23:22:37 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > Under "puzzles for the ages", one might also wonder what the IBM was > > thinking when they added the 20ma current loop circuitry to the board. Did > > they really think that folks were going to use them to drive an ASR 33? Or > > that RS232-to-current loop adapters were hard to obtain? > > A few random guesses [...] Speaking of current loop interfaces, just exactly how is data transmitted? Is it a current pulse train? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 11 17:49:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 15:49:42 -0800 Subject: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602111549420780.8239DF00@10.0.0.252> On 2/11/2006 at 11:22 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >A few random guesses (as I haev said before, you can find out _what_ was >done (e.g. by looking at schemaitcs or listings), but not in general _why_) When the CL interface was dropped by IBM, IIRC, the silence was deafening. I suspect that customers who really needed the CL interface added an external converter anyway because it wasn't widely known that the card included such an interface. My guess is that some IBM engineer was tasked with coming up with a serial card and probably couldn't stand the desolation of the half-empty card. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 11 18:05:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 16:05:46 -0800 Subject: Current loop interface (was: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602111605460125.82489207@10.0.0.252> On 2/11/2006 at 4:46 PM Richard wrote: >Speaking of current loop interfaces, just exactly how is data >transmitted? Is it a current pulse train? It's exactly what it sounds like. Instead of a voltage driven signalling as RS-232C, the current loop interface is driven with a current source (20ma or the older 60ma) for space and the signal is interrupted (no current) for mark. The big advantage is that so long as the specified current is maintained, the distance between the sender and receiver can be substantial. In the old days, the selector magnet on a teletype would be part of that circuit. IIRC, this is also where the name for the "break" key came from--it interrupts the circuit. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 11 20:58:01 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 18:58:01 -0800 Subject: DAP-610 on VCM Message-ID: <955559F2-7B4E-40E3-815E-2117CE220ED5@bitsavers.org> http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=2080 Someone needs to save this. In the ideal world, it should go to the CHM, though I don't know if they have one of the DAP series, or even if they care (it appears all they want are boxes with lights to go "ohhhh ahhhh" at). There were not many sold (like 5...), and it says it has the software. Normally, they would be attached processors to something like a Sun. Dick Lyon had a small one in Apple ATG in the late 80's.. http://www.new-npac.org/projects/cdroms/cewes-1999-06-vol1/nhse/ hpccsurvey/orgs/cpp/cpp.html This may be the same machine offered back in 2003 on the list. From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat Feb 11 21:56:33 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 22:56:33 -0500 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602112256.33159.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 10 February 2006 08:43 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > I have several instances where I wanted to mount a small drive in a large > > drive bay, and a bunch of those adapters that I've gotten from different > > sources. In some cases they worked out just fine. In some others, they > > were obviously "floppy" adapters and the screw holes were just in the > > wrong place to work with any HD I had on hand here... > > The obvious cure for that involves a set of twist drill bits :-). Got fractional, letter, and number. But no drill press or serious holding hardware to do that in. And enough other bracket assemblies that I didn't have to worry about it too much... > [Before soembody does a very silly thing, I am suggesting drilling extra > holes in the adapter bracket, not the drive...) One further complication is that the ones for floppies were designed to hold the drive right flush up against the front panel, while the ones for HDs held it much further back, giving better airflow. If I *did* drill holes for the purpose the HD would be much too far forward, depending on which case I was sticking it in. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Sat Feb 11 22:06:38 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 23:06:38 -0500 Subject: Current loop interface (was: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions?) In-Reply-To: <200602111605460125.82489207@10.0.0.252> References: <200602111605460125.82489207@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200602112306.38186.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Saturday 11 February 2006 07:05 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2/11/2006 at 4:46 PM Richard wrote: > >Speaking of current loop interfaces, just exactly how is data > >transmitted? Is it a current pulse train? > > It's exactly what it sounds like. Instead of a voltage driven signalling > as RS-232C, the current loop interface is driven with a current source > (20ma or the older 60ma) for space and the signal is interrupted (no > current) for mark. The big advantage is that so long as the specified > current is maintained, the distance between the sender and receiver can be > substantial. In the old days, the selector magnet on a teletype would be > part of that circuit. IIRC, this is also where the name for the "break" > key came from--it interrupts the circuit. > > Cheers, > Chuck The first computer that I actually got hands-on time with (I actually built the thing) was a Heath H11 system, back around the beginning of 1978 or so. The "terminal" that we started out with at the time was an LA36, and the interface used was current-loop. I don't know why that was chosen, at the time... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Feb 11 22:28:53 2006 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 23:28:53 -0500 Subject: LMI CADR machine boot disk? References: <200602061032.k16AWFOj066865@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <000901c62f8c$d5f6b540$0100a8c0@screamer> Hello, The email address does indeed work. I've sold my CADR, and all the spare parts to Al Kossow. Al's placed much of the documentation on-line. I'm sure he would love to hear from you. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Braroe" To: Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 5:20 AM Subject: LMI CADR machine boot disk? > Bob Shannon > &In-Reply-To=> bshannon at tiac.net > > > > Hello! > > > > Hope this email adress works! > > > > I have two LMI CADR machines and I booted one as late as ten years ago > 1995! > > > > I saw this post: > > http://classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2001-May/172026.html > > > > and you said you had spare parts? I may need some as I am going to try to > get the machine to run again. I would be happy to try to create a boot > disk > image for you if mine are still good so you can boot yours too. > > > > do you have any tape drive interface for the CADR that could be used to > get > the data off it? > > > > Best regards, > > > > /Peter > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Peter A. Braroe > VD, NewsMachine > Blekingegatan 44 > S-116 62 Stockholm > Office: +46-(0)8-442 03 31 > Mobile: +46-(0)708-750 991 > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 11 22:51:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 20:51:57 -0800 Subject: Current loop interface (was: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions?) In-Reply-To: <200602112306.38186.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200602111605460125.82489207@10.0.0.252> <200602112306.38186.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <200602112051570301.834E92D7@10.0.0.252> On 2/11/2006 at 11:06 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote: >The "terminal" that we started out with at the time was an LA36, and the >interface used was current-loop. I don't know why that was chosen, at >the time... Probably not a factor, but one nice thing about current loop is that you don't need voltage sources for mark and space levels. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 11 22:53:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 20:53:00 -0800 Subject: Tandy Xenix disk images In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A337B7@mail.catcorner.org> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A337B7@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <200602112053000855.834F8B17@10.0.0.252> On 2/11/2006 at 5:46 PM Kelly Leavitt wrote: >> If anyone needs them, download them and give them a try. Let >> me know which >> works. The second image of the second disk is a single sided >> image, which >> should be all you really need. Kelly, how can I tell if I've got the right flavor Model 16 to run this thing? Thanks, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 11 23:14:08 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 21:14:08 -0800 Subject: LMI CADR machine boot disk? Message-ID: > I'm sure he would love to hear from you. Brad Parker would as well http://www.unlambda.com/cadr/index.html From elf at ucsd.edu Sun Feb 12 02:04:53 2006 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 00:04:53 -0800 Subject: Dr. Strangelove -- Classic Computer sighting Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060211235611.049d73b0@popmail.ucsd.edu> Was watching Stanley Kubrick's movie "Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb" (circa 1964) on the tube last night, and noticed Peter Sellers sitting in front of a console of some mainframe computer. It was a beautiful looking console, lots of switches, lights, mag tape units in the background. A state-of-the-art-unit for the era, I'm sure. Anyone who has seen it know what computer it was? -Eric From news at computercollector.com Sun Feb 12 02:17:04 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 03:17:04 -0500 Subject: Speaking of sightings on TV... Message-ID: <000001c62fac$b5883200$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Our local club, MARCH, was recently contacted by some commercial producers on behalf of the Bank of New York. They rented a vintage computer from us for a commercial that should air next month. I won't disclose what they rented (and to the rest of your MARCHians out there, please keep the secret!)... We'll see if anyone out there in cctalk-ville can figure out what it is! ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Feb 12 04:23:50 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:23:50 GMT Subject: OT: Kaypro 10 on TV sitcom last night (Feb 2006) In-Reply-To: <4935.86.139.194.172.1139666264.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <4935.86.139.194.172.1139666264.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <2b61faf74d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <4935.86.139.194.172.1139666264.squirrel at webmail.geekdot.com> lee at geekdot.com wrote: > The sitcom 'IT Crowd' on Channel 4 in the UK features quite a lot of > classic computing equipment as scenery, including a Commodore PET. Yeah, I noticed that and pointed it out to my brother. The conversation went something like: "Hey, is that a Commodore PET in the background? Wait.. it IS a PET.. Heh." "Phil, you are a total geek. I knew you'd say something like that." "Oh, did you recognise it too?" "No, but I new it was damn old.. I mean, it even has a built in monitor and keyboard!" I think I need to get out more... -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G ... The future is like the present, only longer. From dzubint at vcn.bc.ca Sun Feb 12 07:43:48 2006 From: dzubint at vcn.bc.ca (Thomas Dzubin) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 05:43:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dr. Strangelove -- Classic Computer sighting Message-ID: Eric F. (elf at ucsd.edu) asked: "Anyone who has seen it know what computer it was?" A quick check of Google have multiple (independant?) web sites saying: "an IBM 7090 with a 1401 front-end" and "the 1403 printer playing a pivotal role in the plot" Although I've seen the movie multiple times, I'm a DEC guy and can't identify IBM equipment. (as opposed to the PDP-8 in "Three Days of the Condor")) Thomas From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Feb 12 10:12:43 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:12:43 Subject: Orlando Hamfest Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060212101243.107f6f0a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I just returned from two days at the Orlando Hamfest. The hamfest was HUGE this year but I really didn't find much of interest. I think that's largely becuase I've gotten so good at scrounging up stuff that I already have better stuff than they have for sale at the hamfest. There was very little PC stuff there and only saw three classic MOL computers. A guy there had three Amigos with the video toasters that he was trying desperately to sell. I think he finally gave up and just left them there when he left. I tried to call a couple of CC Listers that I though might be interested in them but never got an answer and I didn't want them so I left them behind. I did pick up up an HP-42S, HP-49G with manuals, an operator's manual for the Xerox 820 and a couple of options (A68 and A09) for the HP 1611 Logic Analyzer. The options are pretty neat. They are complete packages and appear to have never been used. One option (A68) is for the 6800 and related CPUs and the other (A09) is for the 6809 and related CPUs. Each includes the Operators and Service manual plus two boards that install in the 1611, a pod that plugs into the CPU socket of the target system and a panel that mounts on the front of the 1611 to the right of the CRT*. These allow the 1611 to monitor and control all of the control and data lines for that CPU as well as decode the data back into the mneunonics for that CPU. I also got a GOOD deal on a New Hermes Engravograph (pantograph) with several sets of brass type patterns. * You can see what the panel for a 6809 looks like on this picture of a HP-1611 for sale on E-bay. Item number: 3820281013 Joe From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Feb 12 11:19:48 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 12:19:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Dr. Strangelove -- Classic Computer sighting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Feb 2006, Thomas Dzubin wrote: > Eric F. (elf at ucsd.edu) asked: > "Anyone who has seen it know what computer it was?" > > A quick check of Google have multiple (independant?) web sites saying: > "an IBM 7090 with a 1401 front-end" and "the 1403 printer playing a > pivotal role in the plot" I've made some screen grabs of the movie available on my site: http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Strange1.jpg http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Strange2.jpg http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Strange3.jpg http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Strange4.jpg http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Strange5.jpg Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 12 12:28:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 11:28:30 -0700 Subject: eBay Item Not Won: Video Data Systems RDT-2000 Remote Terminal (8761840334) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 12 Feb 2006 05:05:04 -0800. <347939773.1139749504815.JavaMail.ebayapp@sj-besreco003> Message-ID: Yikes, this was even crazier, although I suppose the rarity was what caused it. Closed at $354. That's more than I paid for the PDP-11/03, dual RL01s, 23 RL01 packs, full set of manuals, LA-120 and VT-100, including gasoline for the drive out and back (1100 miles). I couldn't dig up anything on the net about this terminal. Has anyone on the list seen one? (or were you the person who bought it on ebay? :-) ... you can tell me privately and I'll keep the secret!) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Feb 12 12:34:50 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:34:50 -0800 Subject: IBM 7090 in "Dr. Strangelove" Message-ID: <19BE29D3-4781-434D-9997-E05308C5CF50@bitsavers.org> http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Strange3.jpg 7090 console, with the channel maint panels in the foreground I've wondered where that installation actually was... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 12 12:42:14 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 18:42:14 +0000 Subject: DAP-610 on VCM In-Reply-To: <955559F2-7B4E-40E3-815E-2117CE220ED5@bitsavers.org> References: <955559F2-7B4E-40E3-815E-2117CE220ED5@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <43EF8186.70802@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=2080 > > Someone needs to save this. In the ideal world, it should > go to the CHM, though I don't know if they have one of the > DAP series, or even if they care (it appears all they want > are boxes with lights to go "ohhhh ahhhh" at). > > There were not many sold (like 5...), and it says it has the software. > Normally, they would be attached processors to something > like a Sun. Is that the same thing as an ICL DAP, just with different branding? From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Feb 12 12:47:25 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 12:47:25 -0600 Subject: Slightly OT: Sources for slightly older PeeCee server class hardware Message-ID: <43EF82BD.1040201@brutman.com> I've been using a Linux box as a firewall for the cable modem before Linksys and the other networking companies came out with small router boxes. Along the years the uses for the box have grown, so I do a little hacking on it, some file servering, backup/restore to the Windoze boxes, etc. The original box was an old 486-66 running Redhat 6.1. (It ran OS/2 2.1 originally). I only decommissioned it last year, and it is still sitting in the room waiting for it's next purpose in life. The current box is a Pentium 233, and it's been doing just fine except I fear that it's starting to crap out. It will not boot off of a floppy disk no matter what I try. I've tried 2 cables, 3 drives, and four different known good boot disks. I've stripped the system down, screwed with the onboard setup, etc. To make a long story short, after 3 hours I've finally decided that the onboard FDC controller is heading south. Disks are still readable, but only after you've booted from hard disk. The motherboard was an ABIT IT5H - good at the time, but given ABIT's reputation at the time I'm really happy that it made it this far. Since the end is near for this machine, it's time to get my data off of it and find a replacement. I'm thinking of something: - a little more robust .. ie, quality - needs to take a few PCI cards. Right now I use 2 NICs, 1 SCSI, and 1 video card. If some of those functions are on the motherboard that is fine. - Can be left on continuously and ignored. What's a good source for stuff like this? I'm thinking of monitoring eBay for items I can do local pickup on, but I'm not sure if small businesses that have this kind of hardware take the time to put it out on eBay when it comes time to upgrade. (I'm in Rochester MN, so my sources of this stuff are limited.) Any ideas on the floppy controller? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 12 04:22:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:22:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Current loop interface (was: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions?) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Feb 11, 6 04:46:30 pm Message-ID: > Speaking of current loop interfaces, just exactly how is data > transmitted? Is it a current pulse train? Basically, yes. For the digital current loops we're talking about here, one state is represented by a given current (normally either 20mA or 60mA) flowing round the loop. The other state is no current. So to send serial data, you turn the current on and off apropriately. There is also an analogue current loop used for industrial sensors. It typically uses currents between 4mA and 20mA. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 12 12:56:12 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 11:56:12 -0700 Subject: DAP-610 on VCM In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 12 Feb 2006 18:42:14 +0000. <43EF8186.70802@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: What's a DAP, anyway? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Feb 12 12:57:59 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 12:57:59 -0600 Subject: Slightly OT: Sources for slightly older PeeCee server class hardware References: <43EF82BD.1040201@brutman.com> Message-ID: <005d01c63006$3fd8d5f0$42406b43@66067007> Take a drive to Minn./St Paul and shop the Goodwill ($5 to $100), UofM warehouse($5 to $50), and each month 3M has a auction at their warehouse and you can get a pallet load of boxes for $25. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael B. Brutman" To: Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 12:47 PM Subject: Slightly OT: Sources for slightly older PeeCee server class hardware > I've been using a Linux box as a firewall for the cable modem before > Linksys and the other networking companies came out with small router > boxes. Along the years the uses for the box have grown, so I do a little > hacking on it, some file servering, backup/restore to the Windoze boxes, > etc. > > The original box was an old 486-66 running Redhat 6.1. (It ran OS/2 2.1 > originally). I only decommissioned it last year, and it is still sitting > in the room waiting for it's next purpose in life. > > The current box is a Pentium 233, and it's been doing just fine except I > fear that it's starting to crap out. It will not boot off of a floppy > disk no matter what I try. I've tried 2 cables, 3 drives, and four > different known good boot disks. I've stripped the system down, screwed > with the onboard setup, etc. To make a long story short, after 3 hours > I've finally decided that the onboard FDC controller is heading south. > Disks are still readable, but only after you've booted from hard disk. The > motherboard was an ABIT IT5H - good at the time, but given ABIT's > reputation at the time I'm really happy that it made it this far. > > Since the end is near for this machine, it's time to get my data off of it > and find a replacement. I'm thinking of something: > > - a little more robust .. ie, quality > - needs to take a few PCI cards. Right now I use 2 NICs, 1 SCSI, and 1 > video card. If some of those functions are on the motherboard that is > fine. > - Can be left on continuously and ignored. > > > What's a good source for stuff like this? I'm thinking of monitoring eBay > for items I can do local pickup on, but I'm not sure if small businesses > that have this kind of hardware take the time to put it out on eBay when > it comes time to upgrade. (I'm in Rochester MN, so my sources of this > stuff are limited.) > > > Any ideas on the floppy controller? > > > From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 12 13:07:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 12:07:57 -0700 Subject: Add-on boards for VT-100 backplane Message-ID: What cards exist that you can plug into the VT-100 backplane? Has anyone any experience with making your own card to plug into it for a graphcis overlay feature? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 12 13:24:17 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:24:17 +0000 Subject: DAP-610 on VCM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43EF8B61.3080602@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > What's a DAP, anyway? Well the ICL ones were early parallel machines (DAP = Distributed Array Processor if I remember right). We had one down at Kent uni, but by the early 90's all the serious parallel work was being done on the Meiko CS1 - I think the DAP was canned in 1994, and I'm not sure what happened to it :-( cheers Jules From rcini at optonline.net Sun Feb 12 13:21:54 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 14:21:54 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Sources for slightly older PeeCee server class hardware In-Reply-To: <43EF82BD.1040201@brutman.com> Message-ID: <006f01c63009$95d21590$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> I've actually bought HW like this from ISellSurplus and eBay. Over the years, I've gotten two Compaq Proliant servers from eBay and both have been great. The one I'm running now was a new old stock Proliant 1600 and cost more than probably what you want to spend but still a fraction of the new cost. There are many recyclers on eBay who buy decommissioned corporate hardware and resell it. My first server (a Proliant 800) came from the accounting firm Ernst & Young (it had the asset tag still on it). Both of these were rack mounted servers. On ISellSurplus I got two Pentium II machines that I used for experimenting with Snort. I think they were $25 each but I had to buy the RAM and HD separately. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael B. Brutman Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 1:47 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Slightly OT: Sources for slightly older PeeCee server class hardware I've been using a Linux box as a firewall for the cable modem before Linksys and the other networking companies came out with small router boxes. Along the years the uses for the box have grown, so I do a little hacking on it, some file servering, backup/restore to the Windoze boxes, etc. The original box was an old 486-66 running Redhat 6.1. (It ran OS/2 2.1 originally). I only decommissioned it last year, and it is still sitting in the room waiting for it's next purpose in life. The current box is a Pentium 233, and it's been doing just fine except I fear that it's starting to crap out. It will not boot off of a floppy disk no matter what I try. I've tried 2 cables, 3 drives, and four different known good boot disks. I've stripped the system down, screwed with the onboard setup, etc. To make a long story short, after 3 hours I've finally decided that the onboard FDC controller is heading south. Disks are still readable, but only after you've booted from hard disk. The motherboard was an ABIT IT5H - good at the time, but given ABIT's reputation at the time I'm really happy that it made it this far. Since the end is near for this machine, it's time to get my data off of it and find a replacement. I'm thinking of something: - a little more robust .. ie, quality - needs to take a few PCI cards. Right now I use 2 NICs, 1 SCSI, and 1 video card. If some of those functions are on the motherboard that is fine. - Can be left on continuously and ignored. What's a good source for stuff like this? I'm thinking of monitoring eBay for items I can do local pickup on, but I'm not sure if small businesses that have this kind of hardware take the time to put it out on eBay when it comes time to upgrade. (I'm in Rochester MN, so my sources of this stuff are limited.) Any ideas on the floppy controller? From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Feb 12 13:30:33 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:30:33 -0600 Subject: Slightly OT: Sources for slightly older PeeCee server class hardware In-Reply-To: <006f01c63009$95d21590$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <006f01c63009$95d21590$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <43EF8CD9.2090700@brutman.com> The only thing that scare me about 'real' servers designed for corporate use is the non-standard parts, like drive sleds, RAM, etc. Back in the day (here I go .. rant mode) you could buy reasonable quality hardware without going to a full blown server. Usually that meant going SCSI instead of IDE, or buying Matrox instead of Diamond. Those days are over. I also know nothing about PC server class hardware, which is going to be a problem. It's hard to see the gotchas. Mike From news at computercollector.com Sun Feb 12 13:38:20 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 14:38:20 -0500 Subject: Top Antique Computers on Camera Contest! was: RE: IBM 7090 in "Dr. Strangelove" In-Reply-To: <19BE29D3-4781-434D-9997-E05308C5CF50@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <002001c6300b$e23e6030$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I think it's time to publish a "Top 10 Antique Computers on Camera" list in my newsletter. So, I request that everyone interested send me an OFF-LIST email with his/her Top 10 list (or however many you can think of.) Then I'll publish the results in an upcoming issue. And just to make it controversial (like any good Top 10 list should be!), I will let former cctalker Sellam Ismail judge which list wins. LOL, I promise to remove the list author names first so he can't make any prejudgments. :) Olympic truce, ya know??? Let the games begin and may the nerdiest cctalker win! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 1:35 PM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: IBM 7090 in "Dr. Strangelove" http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Strange3.jpg 7090 console, with the channel maint panels in the foreground I've wondered where that installation actually was... From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Feb 12 13:39:10 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 13:39:10 -0600 Subject: Slightly OT: Sources for slightly older PeeCee server class hardware In-Reply-To: <43EF8CD9.2090700@brutman.com> References: <006f01c63009$95d21590$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <43EF8CD9.2090700@brutman.com> Message-ID: <43EF8EDE.9030108@mdrconsult.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > The only thing that scare me about 'real' servers designed for corporate > use is the non-standard parts, like drive sleds, RAM, etc. > > Back in the day (here I go .. rant mode) you could buy reasonable > quality hardware without going to a full blown server. Usually that > meant going SCSI instead of IDE, or buying Matrox instead of Diamond. > Those days are over. Yep. I finally quit that rat run and my firewall is now a Soekris net4801. It runs Linux, and it's only more expensive than the Old PC route if air conditioning, power to run the firewall, and my time are free. I love Soekris' hardware. The quality of design and execution is quite rare. Doc From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 12 13:39:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 12:39:43 -0700 Subject: DAP-610 on VCM In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:24:17 +0000. <43EF8B61.3080602@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <43EF8B61.3080602 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > Richard wrote: > > What's a DAP, anyway? > > Well the ICL ones were early parallel machines (DAP = Distributed Array > Processor if I remember right). So its like... a hardware systolic array? I mean, its like a peripheral for something like a PDP-11? Or can it be hooked up to anything? Any docs on bitsavers about it? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Feb 12 13:47:07 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 14:47:07 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Sources for slightly older PeeCee server class hardware In-Reply-To: <43EF8CD9.2090700@brutman.com> References: <006f01c63009$95d21590$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <43EF8CD9.2090700@brutman.com> Message-ID: I run an OEM pc as router (low end even in its day). I under-clocked the cpu (as low as I can go), gave it a huge heat sink and ran its 12v fan on 5v. It is noiseless and is very reliable. I don't want to run 'server class hardware" because they are usually noisy and they often consume too much power. vax, 9000 On 2/12/06, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > The only thing that scare me about 'real' servers designed for corporate > use is the non-standard parts, like drive sleds, RAM, etc. > > Back in the day (here I go .. rant mode) you could buy reasonable > quality hardware without going to a full blown server. Usually that > meant going SCSI instead of IDE, or buying Matrox instead of Diamond. > Those days are over. > > I also know nothing about PC server class hardware, which is going to be > a problem. It's hard to see the gotchas. > > > Mike > > From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Feb 12 14:05:35 2006 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 12:05:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Classic computers on TV - Seinfeld Message-ID: <20060212200535.11593.qmail@web34112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Episode 28 - "The Alternate Side" When Jerry is trying to pick up his rental car, the agents are using TRS-80 model III computers, I believe. http://black-celebration.net/caps/displayimage.php?album=21&pos=43 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rcini at optonline.net Sun Feb 12 14:16:16 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 15:16:16 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Sources for slightly older PeeCee server classhardware In-Reply-To: <43EF8EDE.9030108@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <007001c63011$2dc9e060$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> I would agree with the gotchas in corporate-level hardware, but I have not ever had a problem obtaining various spares from eBay merchants or direct from HPQ. Sleds and drives are plentiful on eBay. I wouldn't try running Linux on one of these unless it's been certified for it. I run Windows NT Server 4.0 patched as far as it goes and it works for my modest needs. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doc Shipley Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 2:39 PM To: General at mdrconsult.com Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Sources for slightly older PeeCee server classhardware Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > The only thing that scare me about 'real' servers designed for corporate > use is the non-standard parts, like drive sleds, RAM, etc. > > Back in the day (here I go .. rant mode) you could buy reasonable > quality hardware without going to a full blown server. Usually that > meant going SCSI instead of IDE, or buying Matrox instead of Diamond. > Those days are over. Yep. I finally quit that rat run and my firewall is now a Soekris net4801. It runs Linux, and it's only more expensive than the Old PC route if air conditioning, power to run the firewall, and my time are free. I love Soekris' hardware. The quality of design and execution is quite rare. Doc From rcini at optonline.net Sun Feb 12 14:17:45 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 15:17:45 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Sources for slightly older PeeCee server classhardware In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <007101c63011$634177d0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> I was concerned about the noise, too, but when I upgraded from the PL800 plus an external RAID box to the 1600, which has a six-slot RAID array built-in, the sound level went down. If you're looking for real low noise, try one of the mini PCs, a Mini-ITX or BTX mobo. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 9000 VAX Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 2:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Sources for slightly older PeeCee server classhardware I run an OEM pc as router (low end even in its day). I under-clocked the cpu (as low as I can go), gave it a huge heat sink and ran its 12v fan on 5v. It is noiseless and is very reliable. I don't want to run 'server class hardware" because they are usually noisy and they often consume too much power. vax, 9000 On 2/12/06, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > The only thing that scare me about 'real' servers designed for corporate > use is the non-standard parts, like drive sleds, RAM, etc. > > Back in the day (here I go .. rant mode) you could buy reasonable > quality hardware without going to a full blown server. Usually that > meant going SCSI instead of IDE, or buying Matrox instead of Diamond. > Those days are over. > > I also know nothing about PC server class hardware, which is going to be > a problem. It's hard to see the gotchas. > > > Mike > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 12 14:43:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 12:43:40 -0800 Subject: Slightly OT: Sources for slightly older PeeCee server class hardware In-Reply-To: <43EF82BD.1040201@brutman.com> References: <43EF82BD.1040201@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200602121243400795.00F706D2@10.0.0.252> On 2/12/2006 at 12:47 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote: >- a little more robust .. ie, quality >- needs to take a few PCI cards. Right now I use 2 NICs, 1 SCSI, and 1 >video card. If some of those functions are on the motherboard that is >fine. Can be left on continuously and ignored. > > >What's a good source for stuff like this? I'm thinking of monitoring >eBay for items I can do local pickup on, but I'm not sure if small >businesses that have this kind of hardware take the time to put it out I've got a similar setup here (even have an FM transmitter hooked to the audio output, so I can broadcast net radio throughout the house. After having a couple of cheaper no-name systems crap out on me, I bought an off-lease Compaq Deskpro P3 600. This is one of the old-style ones with the separate slide-out daugherboard for expansion cards. Basically built like a tank. Thus far, it's been running for about 4 years continuously with not a glitch. It's hooked to a big old Elgar UPS powered by 3 garden tractor batteries, which I replace every few years. We've had a few power failures, some lasting up to 8 hours over the last few years and not a bit dropped. After that much time, I power up the generator--got to keep the stuff in my fridge cold and the water tank full. But I've never had a bad experience picking my gear up from off-lease wholesalers. Quite often, the stuff is less than a year old and sells at a fraction of the original price. The system I'm working on now (an HP Vectra P3 1Ghz) was purchased 5 years ago for $120. Never had a bit of trouble with it. Right now, a local ISP is offering wireless 768Kbps down for $20/month. I'm on DSL 256K at more than that, which is all that's been available to me, since I don't live in town. The trick is to figure out whether I can get sufficient signal strength here--I can SEE the transmitting tower about 3 miles off on the horizon, so maybe there's hope. Cheers, Chuck From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Sun Feb 12 16:03:40 2006 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 22:03:40 +0000 Subject: IBM 7090 in "Dr. Strangelove" In-Reply-To: <19BE29D3-4781-434D-9997-E05308C5CF50@bitsavers.org> References: <19BE29D3-4781-434D-9997-E05308C5CF50@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <11c909eb0602121403p2909bd1eu@mail.gmail.com> On 12/02/06, Al Kossow wrote: > > > http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Strange3.jpg > > 7090 console, with the channel maint panels in the foreground > > I've wondered where that installation actually was... > > > > http://www.kubricklocations.com/ I guessed it would be in the UK because Kubrick famously wouldn't travel by plane. -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From molists at yahoo.com Sun Feb 12 16:12:18 2006 From: molists at yahoo.com (Mo) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 14:12:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: eBay Item Not Won: Vintage Digital DECWriter IV terminal, DEC, serial (8761560822) In-Reply-To: <200602111643.17018.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20060212221218.63644.qmail@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Saturday 11 February 2006 16:29, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 2/11/2006 at 1:18 PM Richard wrote: > > >Umm... is this really the typical going price for a DECWriter IV, > > >or is it another ebay frenzy? > > That it's actually working is more impressive to me; I have had 2 for > 2 with > symptoms of a bad power supply. The latest one (which I still have) > is > waiting patiently for me to have time to fix it. I would attribute the price to a buyer with deep pockets, perhaps he will de-lurk. I never understood the appeal of the Decwriter IV, or any other platen-ed teleprinters with pinfeed, tractor feed, or other auto-jamming mechanisms. Then again, they did look nice, and had keyboard feel on par with the first-generation C. Itoh 101, superior to any VT100 or VT220. There are still quite a few PDP-11, VAX, and Alpha end-users out there, who need replacement parts. I happily sold my Decwriter IV two years ago for a king's ransom to a gentleman with an alarm monitoring system. Those needing KSR units don't have many options. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 12 16:23:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 14:23:25 -0800 Subject: eBay Item Not Won: Vintage Digital DECWriter IV terminal, DEC, serial (8761560822) In-Reply-To: <20060212221218.63644.qmail@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060212221218.63644.qmail@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200602121423250646.0152568B@10.0.0.252> On 2/12/2006 at 2:12 PM Mo wrote: >There are still quite a few PDP-11, VAX, and Alpha end-users out there, >who need replacement parts. I happily sold my Decwriter IV two years >ago for a king's ransom to a gentleman with an alarm monitoring system. > Those needing KSR units don't have many options. Is there any reason that a dumb terminal with a printer attached wouldn't have worked? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 12 18:01:45 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 00:01:45 +0000 Subject: DAP-610 on VCM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43EFCC69.4020208@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > In article <43EF8B61.3080602 at yahoo.co.uk>, > Jules Richardson writes: > >> Richard wrote: >>> What's a DAP, anyway? >> Well the ICL ones were early parallel machines (DAP = Distributed Array >> Processor if I remember right). > > So its like... a hardware systolic array? > > I mean, its like a peripheral for something like a PDP-11? Or can it > be hooked up to anything? My memory's too fuzzy I'm afraid - I used to use the Meiko which replaced the DAP at uni (about 140 T800 processors I think - replaced in the mid 90's with a Parsys box that had a pile of T9000's inside). Google suggests that the original DAP was a 4096 array of single-bit processors, but I'm not convinced about that - I've got a hazy memory of a machine with about 40 processors, but that may have been something else! :-) (Kent uni seemed to be something of a UK centre for parallel computing research back then) Google also says that the DAP was an add-on for an ICL 2900 series mainframe. That is possible; there was a 2900 at Kent once although it was all gone by the time I was there; some notes I have found say that the DAP was using a Sun box as the front end in the early 90's. I'll have another dig around tomorrow as I'm sure I should have some background info on the machine *somewhere*... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 12 18:07:36 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 00:07:36 +0000 Subject: HP 9000 V-class Message-ID: <43EFCDC8.3070104@yahoo.co.uk> Anybody familiar with these boxes? We've acquired one at Bletchley (a 9000/800/v2200) but no documentation, so getting an OS installed on it is proving to be a nightmare - hence finding someone who has details and would be willing to look up a few odds and ends would be most handy! HP's website seems spectacularly useless in documenting the hardware / resident firmware and only covers the OS side of things :( cheers Jules From allain at panix.com Sun Feb 12 18:25:49 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:25:49 -0500 Subject: Add-on boards for VT-100 backplane References: Message-ID: <004101c63034$1bd95b60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> What immediately comes to mind was thet DEC RgGIS graphics was available as an upgrade (and also bundled as the VT-125), and a Digital Engineering (3rd party) graphics board called "Retrographics" VT640 that did Tektronix codes. John A. they called it Retrographics back then. How ironic. From allain at panix.com Sun Feb 12 18:33:08 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:33:08 -0500 Subject: Top Antique Computers on Camera Contest! was: RE: IBM 7090 in "Dr.Strangelove" References: <002001c6300b$e23e6030$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <004f01c63035$10dc22a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> I kinda hope that a master list would be compiled from all the submissions, after doing a merge and dedupe, so as to be the best possible ClassicComp movie guide. John A. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 12 18:38:10 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 16:38:10 -0800 Subject: Add-on boards for VT-100 backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602121638100070.01CDB20E@10.0.0.252> On 2/12/2006 at 12:07 PM Richard wrote: >What cards exist that you can plug into the VT-100 backplane? Wasn't the VT-180 basically a VT-100 with an added Z80 board and external floppy? Was there a VT-100-to-VT-180 upgrade path? Cheers, Chuck From Useddec at aol.com Sun Feb 12 18:41:33 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:41:33 EST Subject: Top Antique Computers on Camera Contest! was: RE: IBM 7090 in "Dr.Strange... Message-ID: <2b6.47a9b0e.31212fbd@aol.com> I think the ANSF-Q7 (SAGE) was seen on Voyage To the Bottom of the Sea. I've also seen it on several other movies and TV shows, but don't recall which ones. Paul From Useddec at aol.com Sun Feb 12 18:48:44 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:48:44 EST Subject: Add-on boards for VT-100 backplane Message-ID: <267.59ab3d5.3121316c@aol.com> The VT103 had a Q-bus backplane. The VT105 and VT125, and several compatible, were all add ons. The VT101, 02, 31, and 32 were just different boards in the same unit. There was also the PDT11/130, and a few others. Paul From Useddec at aol.com Sun Feb 12 18:52:11 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:52:11 EST Subject: Add-on boards for VT-100 backplane Message-ID: <260.6bc8ff5.3121323b@aol.com> Yes, that's another one, and it used the RX180. Need any? Paul From news at computercollector.com Sun Feb 12 19:00:56 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 20:00:56 -0500 Subject: Top Antique Computers on Camera Contest! was: RE: IBM 7090 in"Dr.Strangelove" In-Reply-To: <004f01c63035$10dc22a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <004501c63038$f3350d80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I'll certainly consider the mentions posted here, although I have no intention of making a "best possible ... movie guide". LOL, there's no entertainment editor here at Computer Collector Newsletter. But if someone else is a film buff and wants to make a guide, then I'll glady share the contributed Top 10 lists (sans author names) so they can compile a guide, and I'll give them space to write about it. Only one person sent me a personal, private Top 10 list so far. The rest of you should get thinking! :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Allain Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2006 7:33 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Top Antique Computers on Camera Contest! was: RE: IBM 7090 in"Dr.Strangelove" I kinda hope that a master list would be compiled from all the submissions, after doing a merge and dedupe, so as to be the best possible ClassicComp movie guide. John A. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 12 19:03:06 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 17:03:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Classic computers on TV - Seinfeld In-Reply-To: <20060212200535.11593.qmail@web34112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from steven stengel at "Feb 12, 6 12:05:35 pm" Message-ID: <200602130103.RAA12724@floodgap.com> > Episode 28 - "The Alternate Side" > > When Jerry is trying to pick up his rental car, the > agents are using TRS-80 model III computers, I > believe. > > http://black-celebration.net/caps/displayimage.php?album=21&pos=43 I dunno ... from that angle it could be anything. Was there a grab that was more head-on? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A pedestal is as much a prison as any small, confined space. -- G. Steinem - From javickers at solutionengineers.com Sun Feb 12 19:16:03 2006 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 01:16:03 -0000 Subject: Classic computers on TV 2 - Egg card commercials (UK) In-Reply-To: <20060212200535.11593.qmail@web34112.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200602130127.k1D1Rbkr060332@keith.ezwind.net> Currently, Egg are running a series of amusing UK comercials featuring a bunch of gerbils - some of whom are having financial problems. In order to help them out, Egg "give" the gerbils a computer(!) - which is clearly a stylised CBM Pet, albeit with the incongruous addition of a large trackball. Egg do, conversely, stick faithfully to the green-on-black display, even if their gerbil-scale Pet seems to exhibit better graphics resolution than the prototype... Cheers! Ade. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.6/257 - Release Date: 10/02/2006 From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Feb 12 19:24:09 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 17:24:09 -0800 Subject: DAP-610 on VCM In-Reply-To: <43EFCC69.4020208@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43EFCC69.4020208@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200602121724.11033.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 12 February 2006 16:01, Jules Richardson wrote: --snip-- > Google also says that the DAP was an add-on for an ICL 2900 series > mainframe. That is possible; there was a 2900 at Kent once although it was > all gone by the time I was there; some notes I have found say that the DAP > was using a Sun box as the front end in the early 90's. > > I'll have another dig around tomorrow as I'm sure I should have some > background info on the machine *somewhere*... For more detail on the DAP-610 (and other period supercomputers) download "mp-computers.ps.gz" via anonymous FTP from bickleywest.com/supercomputer (or ftp://bickleywest.com/supercomputer). BTW: The DAP-610 is on page 14 of the document. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Feb 12 19:27:11 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 20:27:11 -0500 Subject: Add-on boards for VT-100 backplane In-Reply-To: <200602121638100070.01CDB20E@10.0.0.252> References: Message-ID: <20060213012715.ZTGM17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > On 2/12/2006 at 12:07 PM Richard wrote: > > >What cards exist that you can plug into the VT-100 backplane? > > Wasn't the VT-180 basically a VT-100 with an added Z80 board and external > floppy? Was there a VT-100-to-VT-180 upgrade path? Yes and Yes. You could purchase an upgrade kit which includes the CP/M boards and a new backplate for the unit to accomodate the additional I/O connectors. From what I've read, the kit also included a replacement "VT-180" badge, although my 180 still has the VT-100 badge and a little red sticker that says "special option installed". I have photos of the individual boards on my site. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Feb 12 20:33:02 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 21:33:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Top Antique Computers on Camera Contest! was: RE: IBM 7090 in "Dr.Strange... In-Reply-To: <2b6.47a9b0e.31212fbd@aol.com> References: <2b6.47a9b0e.31212fbd@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 Useddec at aol.com wrote: > I think the ANSF-Q7 (SAGE) was seen on Voyage To the Bottom of the Sea. > I've also seen it on several other movies and TV shows, but don't recall > which ones. Yes, part of the Simplex Maintenance Console was used on season 4 of Voyage, along with some assorted other panels. See my web page for lots more: http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Q7/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sun Feb 12 20:29:09 2006 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 21:29:09 -0500 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware Message-ID: <20060213022909.D9CCE20115FE@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > But no drill press or serious holding hardware to do that in. Surely you can improvise, just screw the metal bracket to a piece of flat wooden surface (e.g. leftovers from IKEA bookcases). I also find that its easier if you start with a very thin bit to drill a guide hole. > One further complication is that the ones for floppies were designed to hold > the drive right flush up against the front panel, while the ones for HDs > held it much further back, giving better airflow. If I *did* drill holes > for the purpose the HD would be much too far forward, depending on which > case I was sticking it in. Ah, yes, in that case you may want to copy a scheme that was used on Olivetti servers. These had 10-15 5mm holes on the plastic panel sitting in front of the drive (the thing you remove if you want to mount a tape drive or CDROM). These provided more than adequate ventilation for the drives which were placed just behind the panel. I have used the same trick on a machine that had a bunch of Seagate 75Gb SCSI drives (these were getting real hot) and it allowed sufficient cooling to let them operate 24/7 in an office environment. **vp From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 13 00:28:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 22:28:36 -0800 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: <20060213022909.D9CCE20115FE@mail.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20060213022909.D9CCE20115FE@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <200602122228360375.030E8515@10.0.0.252> On 2/12/2006 at 9:29 PM Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: >Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> But no drill press or serious holding hardware to do that in. >Surely you can improvise, just screw the metal bracket to a piece of >flat wooden surface (e.g. leftovers from IKEA bookcases). I also find >that its easier if you start with a very thin bit to drill a guide hole. An automatic center punch is inexpensive and pretty much foolproof. Slides in some cases are a problem. I've mounted a couple of extra floppy drives in a Toshiba Inifinia case using strips of oak in place of the factory slides. Sure, it's not authentic, but who's going to see? Cheers, Chuck From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 13 00:38:07 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 00:38:07 -0600 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? Message-ID: <43F0294F.3030705@oldskool.org> Have a working Intel Above Board Plus 8 with 2MB RAM and would like to populate it to the full 8MB. It will take 120ns or faster 1mbit chips -- but where can one find that kind of thing nowadays? Are those still commercially available or am I going to have to scavenge them from somewhere else? Manual lists acceptable part numbers like: Fujitsu MB81C1000P-xx Hitachi HM511000P-xxS Mitsubishi M5M41000AP-xx Motorola M5M511000P-xx NEC UPD421000C-xx NMB AAA1M100-xx OKI M511000RS-xx Samsung KM41C1000P-xx TI TMS4C1024-xx Toshiba TC511000P-xx ...etc but google searches haven't been very fruitful (that is, the pages returned when I search for IC part numbers don't return vendors with plain pricing/availability info). I just want a few tubes of these to populate the board, I'm not looking for a box of 'em :-) Any pointers? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From Maurice.Smulders at gmail.com Fri Feb 10 09:20:47 2006 From: Maurice.Smulders at gmail.com (Maurice.Smulders) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:20:47 -0700 Subject: GPIB-to-USB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43ECAF4F.7000101@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> I know that there are a number of HP enthusiasts here. This item was in >> the current EDN online and I thought it might interest someone: >> >> http://www.edn.com/article/CA6290453.html?spacedesc=designideas >> > > >From the subject: line, I asusme this is a device to link GPIB > peripherals to a USB host, and not the much more useful (to me) interface > to link USB peripherals to an HPIB controller... > > -tony > > It's actually a HPIB controller which is controlled over USB. http://lsd.fe.uni-lj.si/gpib/ They are working on a kit...Which is good because the 75162 is generally available in DIL anymore... Thanks, Maurice From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 11 04:37:55 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 02:37:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: archiving hard drives, Televideo PM/4T and AT&T7300 Message-ID: <20060211103755.64276.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> when I said my attempts failed, its due to the way those disks were stored (i.e theyre just bad). I probably have ALL the docs for the machine though, a stack of slipcovered binders 2-3ft tall. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > I have 2 systems in particular for which I'd like to > > create images of the hard drives (well it would be > > nice anyway). The first is an AT & T 7300 "UNIX PC" > > (68010 based). The other is a Televideo "Personal > > Mini" PM/4T or something (80186 based). What's the > > best way to go about it? It's not unlikely I'd find an > > archive of 7300 software out there on the net (I have > > MANY of the original disks, and my attempts at imaging > > them have failed) > > Chris, the UnixPC will dupe those disks itself. It's slow going to > be sure, but it works. > > I've got an idea that Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk might handle those > install floppies, but my UnixPC is in storage and *way* down on the > project list. > > > Doc __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jclang at notms.net Sat Feb 11 18:07:37 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 19:07:37 -0500 Subject: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06021119073700.01320@bell> On Saturday 11 February 2006 18:22, you wrote: > > Under "puzzles for the ages", one might also wonder what the IBM was > > thinking when they added the 20ma current loop circuitry to the board. > > Did they really think that folks were going to use them to drive an ASR > > 33? Or that RS232-to-current loop adapters were hard to obtain? > > A few random guesses (as I haev said before, you can find out _what_ was > done (e.g. by looking at schemaitcs or listings), but not in general _why_) > > 1) The IBM PC had similar design ideas to the Apple ][ (open machine, > basic/cassette port, etc). One of the early Apple ][ serial boards had a > current loop intenrface (and the manual for that _did_ describe how to > connect it to an ASR33) > > 2) IIRC IBM made some current loop printers. A friend of mine has a > System 23 (Datamaster), I seem to remember the printer on that has a > current loop interface > > 3) There were other current loop devices around, maybe the extra > circuitry was added for people who wanted to use thoase Why have to > bother with an ecternal converter unit? > > -tony The writeup that IBM published at the time, said they handled slot 8 differently to support the expansion interface. The bus driver was normally off unless a device the the expansion chassis was addressed. I assume it would be for RFI reduction, but that's a guess on my part. I've never seen docs on the expansion interface, so can't verify it. joe lang From rp0428 at pacbell.net Sat Feb 11 19:32:33 2006 From: rp0428 at pacbell.net (RPost) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 17:32:33 -0800 Subject: VERY LONG: Latest S-100 Haul Message-ID: <000701c62f74$34719a90$1401a8c0@RPWS002> Hi, Just ran across you email from 4 years ago about your 'Latest S-100 Haul'. Do you still have the DataStar manual? I worked at MicroPro in 1980-82 as the primary developer on DataStar after Diane Hajicek moved on to InfoStar. I have a copy of DataStar release 1.1 that I can still run on my PC (W2K or XP) using a Z80 and CP/M emulator. But I can't find out where the patch area is for the terminal installation strings. The DataStar manual should have an appendix that lists the terminal strings and patch areas. Also, I found a site (http://www.triousa.com/) run by Gordon Jackson (formerly of MicroPro). His company can still do file conversions and things. Don't know if he can handle 8" disks but he might. Thanks for any info or leads you can provide. Rick From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 11 22:13:39 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 20:13:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sirius 1 (aka Victor 9000) on Ebay (UK) Message-ID: <20060212041339.54403.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> I want one anyway. I WANT IT I WANT IT! Another minimum mode 8088 I seem to perceive. Used to think that amounted to an 8085, but its not limited to 64k. Chuckie also chose a non-conformist Hitachi crt controller. I ran across something else that used it the other day, but I forget what it was. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > what you get someone whos got everything else. Or at > > least every other IBM incompatible on the planet (ok > > Im not quite there). Also a must for the truly > > masochistic (gcr floppies). What every guru/sicko > > The hardware is a bit odd... It clearly shows the Chuck Peddle influence, > it's full of 6522s (3 on the mainboard, 3 on the disk controller), and > the disk read/write circuit is very similar to that in a Commodore PET > drive... > > A couple of odd things. Firstly, the Centronics port is driven by GPIB > buffers (75160 and I think 75162). A 'little matter of programming' and > the right cable would get you a GPIB port there, > > Then there's the user port. A 50 pin header on the mainboard. It's almost > a complete 6522 (I think one of the port lines is used to clock the sound > circuitry), along with a light pen input and power lines. Odd.... > > And the sound iput. THe encoding half of the codec is wired to the > receive side of the 6852. The input to that codec comes from a pin on > header on the mainbosrd (along with power lines, ground, etc). It would > not be hard to feed an audio signal in there, the hard part would be to > write/find the necessary software.... > > -tony __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 11 22:55:50 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 20:55:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mythbusters Message-ID: <20060212045550.10129.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> although its been refuted on this list, I do seem to recall reading that plugging a 5151 into a CGA card was catastrophic - read IMPLOSION. Alas only a suburban legend. And as much as Id like to see it (not that I have anything against 5151s), Im not going to be trying it anytime soon. No way, no how... --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > On 2/2/2006 at 5:29 PM Richard wrote: > > >Yes, its referred to as the "Killer Poke". There was also something > >you could do on early IBM PC graphics adapaters where you could fry > >the monitor by writing a zero value to a frequency register, IIRC. > > All you really had to do to fry the MDA on a PC was to program the > horizontal frequency a few KHz too high. The display would keep sync, but > eventually the HOT would get smoked. I fried a couple of HOTs while > working on SIMGA--fortunately, the distributor for the monitors was about 6 > blocks away and they had an ample supply of replacement parts. > > But heck, that isn't dramatic. The display just goes dark. > > I want a Star Trek-type "ERROR ER ROR MUST RE EVALUATE" type of smoke and > sparks type of software failure ending in an explosion of thermonuclear > proportions... > > Cheers, > Chuck > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kelly at catcorner.org Sun Feb 12 06:12:04 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 07:12:04 -0500 Subject: Tandy Xenix disk images Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A337C3@mail.catcorner.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] > Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 11:53 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Tandy Xenix disk images > > > On 2/11/2006 at 5:46 PM Kelly Leavitt wrote: > > >> If anyone needs them, download them and give them a try. Let > >> me know which > >> works. The second image of the second disk is a single sided > >> image, which > >> should be all you really need. > > Kelly, how can I tell if I've got the right flavor Model 16 > to run this > thing? > > Thanks, > Chuck > > Chuck: The 16 will need to have the last PAL upgrade, with checksum 3646D4 on U36. This would be on the 68000 CPU board. I have version 3.0 around somewhere that doesn't require that upgrade. I'll image that when time permits. Kelly From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Sun Feb 12 13:17:28 2006 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 14:17:28 -0500 Subject: IBM 7090 in "Dr. Strangelove" In-Reply-To: <19BE29D3-4781-434D-9997-E05308C5CF50@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200602121928.k1CJSrvq054201@keith.ezwind.net> I know an old guy in the Gold Recovery business in LA who was GSA approved and had a nice side business selling stuff to Hollywood, But in 1964 that had to be someones system, as that was way too early in it's life for it to have been a simple movie prop. Just my thoughts Bob Bradlee On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:34:50 -0800, Al Kossow wrote: >http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Strange3.jpg >7090 console, with the channel maint panels in the foreground >I've wondered where that installation actually was... From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 12 18:40:15 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 16:40:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: need early version (1.?) of Netware Message-ID: <20060213004015.87669.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> in particular the version - Infoshare ( = OEM Netware 1.0?) - that ran on the Televideo Personal Mini PM/16T (80186 based). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From adamg at pobox.com Sat Feb 11 22:39:37 2006 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 23:39:37 -0500 Subject: VCP200 chip available Message-ID: <20060212043937.GA55878@silme.pair.com> I have an old VCP200 voice recognition chip -- think I bought it at Rat Shack a long time ago. It's been sitting in its original antistatic foam in a pile of dust atop my monitor for several years. I never tried using it and have no idea if it's good. The chip has the Motorola logo and then says VCPI (c) 1988 VCP200 A61A8902. Anyone want it? First person to send me their snail-mail address gets it. -- Adam From herby1620 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 11 15:51:27 2006 From: herby1620 at yahoo.com (Herbert C. Williams) Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:51:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: What bus is this for? Message-ID: <20060211215127.87895.qmail@web36808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On Thursday 02 February 2006 08:48 am, Richard wrote: > ebay item #8760295547, prototyping board > > Card edge connector with 44 contacts, 22 per side, 0.156" spacing > > Is this STD bus? I'm not planning on buying it, I was just > curious :) Oh, yes, the 44 pin cards. There were quite a few connectors that used the .156 spacing for contacts (before everyone went to .1 centers). They still are around in lots of places. The "numbering" of the contacts was USUALLY one side with numbers, and the other side with letters (missing G, I, O, Q). This means that the 44 pin connector had letters from A to Z! I designed a 6800 system using these cards (the prototyping cards were available where I worked at VERY low cost!), and it worked quite well. 8 data lines, 16 address lines, and 7 controls. I used 21 & Y for +5 volts and 22 & Z for ground. Look, it was 1975, and only 1MHz!. It actually worked out quite well, and I get a company going for around 4 years (it died of bad management!). Yes, there were LOTS of prototyping boards around for this from factor, and I was thankful for that. One of the goodies that I did was a Centronics interface using only a single 6821 (PIA) on the board. It worked quite well (a slot select line was wired into the board which made it pretty simple!). Those were the days. Simple interfaces and all the source you could see. (*SIGH*) Yes, STD bus is 56 pins at .150 spacing, but same form factor! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From sellam at vintagetech.com Sun Feb 12 14:56:26 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 12:56:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need Xerox ViewPoint 1.0 for 6085 Message-ID: I need the install media (disk or tape) for ViewPoint version 1.0 for the Xerox 6085. Does anyone have this? If so, please contact me directly. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From terry at terryking.us Fri Feb 10 08:02:47 2006 From: terry at terryking.us (Terry King) Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 15:02:47 +0100 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 30, Issue 12 In-Reply-To: <200602101253.k1ACrFC4040583@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20060210150150.02938f08@mail.terryking.us> At 06:53 AM 2/10/2006 -0600, you wrote: >I am wondering how you get it to Europe without going overseas ;-) By driving thru the tunnel, or taking the train UNDER the English Channel... Regards, Terry King ...On The Mediterranean in Carthage, Tunisia terry at terryking.us From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 13 02:59:06 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 02:59:06 -0600 Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <20060212045550.10129.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060212045550.10129.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43F04A5A.3010900@oldskool.org> Chris M wrote: > although its been refuted on this list, I do seem to > recall reading that plugging a 5151 into a CGA card > was catastrophic - read IMPLOSION. Alas only a > suburban legend. And as much as Id like to see it (not > that I have anything against 5151s), Im not going to > be trying it anytime soon. No way, no how... The frequencies are different but not enough to blow anything up. Excessively *high* frequencies, on the other hand, will release the magic smoke. I've seen this firsthand by a program a friend wrote that output random values to the CGA registers until monitor go >poof<. The particular combination was CGA card connected to "monochrome CGA" monitor (it was monochrome, but accepted a CGA signal and displayed the 16 colors as 16 shades of gray). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From asholz at topinform.de Mon Feb 13 06:59:03 2006 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:59:03 +0100 Subject: HP 9000 V-class In-Reply-To: <43EFCDC8.3070104@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43EFCDC8.3070104@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43F08297.50900@topinform.de> Jules, do you got the system including the teststation? Andreas > > Anybody familiar with these boxes? We've acquired one at Bletchley (a > 9000/800/v2200) but no documentation, so getting an OS installed on it > is proving to be a nightmare - hence finding someone who has details > and would be willing to look up a few odds and ends would be most handy! > > HP's website seems spectacularly useless in documenting the hardware / > resident firmware and only covers the OS side of things :( > > cheers > > Jules > > > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Feb 12 22:01:25 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 23:01:25 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div" Message-ID: <43F00495.10501@compsys.to> Hi All, I have noticed what may be an interesting result when I use the PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div". Since I have noticed at least one individual who worked on the microcode for the PDP-11, perhaps there is an explicit "Yes / No" answer to my question: If I divide 196612 by 3 - i.e. "Div (R2),R0" where R0 = 3, R1 = 4, (R2) = 3 the result (in addition to the condition bits) is R0 = 1, R1 = 1 which is exactly correct if the quotient is regarded as a 32 bit result with R0 being the low order 16 bits of that result and the high order 32 bits are somewhere else - probably inaccessible as far as programming is concerned, but easily obtained by: Mov R1-(SP) ; Save low order 16 bits of dividend Mov R0,R1 ; Divide high order 16 bits Clr R0 ; of dividend Div (R2),R0 ; by the divisor Mov R0,R3 ; Save high order 16 bits of quotient Mov R1,R0 ; Divide the remainder Mov (SP)+,R1 ; of the dividend Div (R2),R0 ; by the divisor i.e. R3 now contains the high order 16 bits of the 32 bit quotient with R0 holding the low order 16 bits of the 32 bit quotient Reason for the question: I require the complete quotient ONLY when the remainder is ZERO (specifically when the dividend is not a prime number since (R2) is ALWAYS a prime number). Thus, if I can avoid performing the first division except when the remainder is zero and I require the high order 16 bits of the quotient to continue, I can optimize the code. Thus far I have tested the code on numbers up to 100,000,000 when I divide by 3 and the results are always correct. Can anyone confirm what I have found in practice? Even better would be a method of retrieving the high order 16 bits of the quotient in a manner which takes fewer instructions and without a second divide instruction! For those who are interested, I am attempting to calculate the Mobius Function - mu(n). If you check on Google, mu(n) requires the number of factors of n. Thus while a sieve program can be used to remove the prime numbers, the rest of the numbers must be factored to obtain the number of factors. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Feb 13 08:41:04 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:41:04 +0100 Subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel (was: Re: Original 11/74 front panel) Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF269A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Without thinking much about it, I'd say that mounting any real blinkenlight console on a 11/44 is *not* trivial! Of course, grabbing UNIBUS address- and data-lines and wiring that to the lights is trivial, but to get all panel functions (LOAD ADDR, DEP, EXAM, etc). working on an 11/44 is more work. I guess there are more people on the list who have a boring PDP-11/44 with a dull panel, that would like to make the /44 more sexy with an 'appropriate' panel. The "upgrade" is, of course, done in such a way that it can be undone ... I (we) do not have a /74 panel :-( , but I'd like to hear what approach you are thinking of, Don. Hmm, you could do it like I did as add-on to SIMH. Hardware with some intelligence reads the front panel and translates the switches to messages in ODT syntax which are send to the 11/44 monitor program ... - Henk, PA8PDP. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don North > Sent: vrijdag 10 februari 2006 21:07 > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Original 11/74 front panel > > Actually I was thinking of making a replacement/alternate > front panel for my 11/44 using the 11/74 panel. > Add real blinking lights/switches connected up to the real > UNIBUS/memorybus. > > The 11/44 panel is *way* too spartan looking, and the 11/74 > panel would fit just perfectly on the front of the box. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Feb 13 08:56:32 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 09:56:32 -0500 Subject: Mounting new hardware in vintage hardware In-Reply-To: <20060213022909.D9CCE20115FE@mail.cs.drexel.edu> References: <20060213022909.D9CCE20115FE@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <200602130956.32048.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Sunday 12 February 2006 09:29 pm, Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > But no drill press or serious holding hardware to do that in. > > Surely you can improvise, just screw the metal bracket to a piece of > flat wooden surface (e.g. leftovers from IKEA bookcases). I also find > that its easier if you start with a very thin bit to drill a guide hole. > > > One further complication is that the ones for floppies were designed to > > hold the drive right flush up against the front panel, while the ones > > for HDs held it much further back, giving better airflow. If I *did* > > drill holes for the purpose the HD would be much too far forward, > > depending on which case I was sticking it in. > > Ah, yes, in that case you may want to copy a scheme that was used on > Olivetti servers. These had 10-15 5mm holes on the plastic panel sitting > in front of the drive (the thing you remove if you want to mount a tape > drive or CDROM). These provided more than adequate ventilation for the > drives which were placed just behind the panel. I have used the same trick > on a machine that had a bunch of Seagate 75Gb SCSI drives (these were > getting real hot) and it allowed sufficient cooling to let them operate > 24/7 in an office environment. > > **vp I have a big tower case that I'm in the process of building, which uses a bunch of these adapters, holding a RAID array. Gonna be a file server someday... The use of those rather than putting them in smaller bays allows for lots of room for air circulation. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Feb 13 09:03:04 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 10:03:04 -0500 Subject: bus connectors I could use Message-ID: <200602131003.04135.rtellason@blazenet.net> If anybody has them to spare, I could use *one* STD bus connector (okay, and maybe a spare :-) for the spot on my BigBoard 2 that allows for that... I also have a partially-constructed S-100 backplane, made by Vector (I'm still missing a few Tantalum caps for the active termination portion) but need the S-100 connectors to go into it. Not something I can afford to invest in at this point in time, funds being rather tight, but if you have some of these connectors that you'd be willing to part with... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rcini at optonline.net Mon Feb 13 09:24:35 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 10:24:35 -0500 Subject: BIOS upgrade cards Message-ID: <000201c630b1$988e11f0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I have an old Compaq 386 that I use for various tasks in the shop. The Compaq BIOS has a fixed hard drive table and no "type 47 - user" entry. So, I just used whatever I had for a drive in stock and I picked the entry closest to the drive size. This brings up an interesting query. I remember way back when, people sold BIOS upgrade cards that provided a BIOS extension so that you could use hard drives not originally designed for the computer. What were these boards called? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Feb 13 10:58:19 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:58:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Classic computers on TV 2 - Egg card commercials (UK) In-Reply-To: <43F0BA47.7000805@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20060213165819.B5B7C58188@mail.wordstock.com> Ade Vickers wrote: > Currently, Egg are running a series of amusing UK comercials featuring a > bunch of gerbils - some of whom are having financial problems. > > In order to help them out, Egg "give" the gerbils a computer(!) - which is > clearly a stylised CBM Pet, albeit with the incongruous addition of a large > trackball. Egg do, conversely, stick faithfully to the green-on-black > display, even if their gerbil-scale Pet seems to exhibit better graphics > resolution than the prototype... > > Cheers! > Ade. > > http://www.visit4info.com/moredetails.cfm?adnum=29668 http://www.visit4info.com/moredetails.cfm?adnum=28418 has the ads... FYI - they are guinea pigs! :) Cheers, Bryan From cheri-post at web.de Mon Feb 13 11:26:54 2006 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:26:54 +0100 Subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel (was: Re: Original 11/74 front panel) Message-ID: <1145702118@web.de> > I guess there are more people on the list who have a boring > PDP-11/44 with a dull panel, that would like to make the /44 > more sexy with an 'appropriate' panel. The "upgrade" is, > of course, done in such a way that it can be undone ... > I (we) do not have a /74 panel :-( Well Henk, at least, you HAVE PDPs with a "lights and switches" console. Please think of those (I'm part of them!) who are eager to get one. 11/24 or 11/73s are nice, but unfortunately not the same. Today, it's almost impossible to get one...if you don't consider the possibility of buying one for a 1000$. THAT'S definitely the case for students like me. ... 11/74s are really cool! Thanks for that nice picture, Tim. Regards, Pierre ______________________________________________________________ Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS! Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193 From bert at brothom.nl Mon Feb 13 12:07:23 2006 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 19:07:23 +0100 Subject: Classic computers on TV 2 - Egg card commercials (UK) In-Reply-To: <20060213165819.B5B7C58188@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060213165819.B5B7C58188@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <43F0CADB.9080404@brothom.nl> Bryan Pope wrote: > http://www.visit4info.com/moredetails.cfm?adnum=29668 > http://www.visit4info.com/moredetails.cfm?adnum=28418 > > has the ads... FYI - they are guinea pigs! :) I'd love to see them, but I refuse to pay to watch an ad... From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Feb 13 12:18:59 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:18:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Classic computers on TV 2 - Egg card commercials (UK) In-Reply-To: <43F0CADB.9080404@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <20060213181859.D06F05818F@mail.wordstock.com> > > Bryan Pope wrote: > > http://www.visit4info.com/moredetails.cfm?adnum=29668 > > http://www.visit4info.com/moredetails.cfm?adnum=28418 > > > > has the ads... FYI - they are guinea pigs! :) > > I'd love to see them, but I refuse to pay to watch an ad... > There are free Broadband versions of the ads... You only have to pay if you want to watch the full-screen versions. Cheers, Bryan From jcwren at jcwren.com Mon Feb 13 12:31:23 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:31:23 -0500 Subject: Classic computers on TV 2 - Egg card commercials (UK) In-Reply-To: <43F0CADB.9080404@brothom.nl> References: <20060213165819.B5B7C58188@mail.wordstock.com> <43F0CADB.9080404@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <43F0D07B.3010507@jcwren.com> They're free. I just watched them all. If you want full screen or to download them, you have to be a member. Look again. --jc Bert Thomas wrote: > Bryan Pope wrote: >> http://www.visit4info.com/moredetails.cfm?adnum=29668 >> http://www.visit4info.com/moredetails.cfm?adnum=28418 >> >> has the ads... FYI - they are guinea pigs! :) > > I'd love to see them, but I refuse to pay to watch an ad... > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 13 12:43:04 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:43:04 -0700 Subject: Classic computers on TV In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:31:23 -0500. <43F0D07B.3010507@jcwren.com> Message-ID: I just watched a Tom Baker Doctor Who episode recently "Seeds of Doom" in which there is clearly a purple skinned PDP-11 in the background of the archaeology lab. I'll see if I can grab some screen shots. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 13 12:50:11 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:50:11 -0700 Subject: 1 cent ebay items for pickup only -- St. Charles, MO 63303 Message-ID: 8765626540 Cromemco System Three Case Kinda Rough Pickup Only 8765634509 Ohio Scientific OSI C3 Cabinet Incomplete Pickup Only 8765637723 IBM System/23 Datamaster for Pickup Only 8765639131 IBM 5247 Hard Disk Unit for Pickup Only If anyone goes out there and isn't interested in the Cromemco/OSI stuff, I'd like to talk to them :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 13 12:52:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 10:52:45 -0800 Subject: BIOS upgrade cards In-Reply-To: <000201c630b1$988e11f0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <000201c630b1$988e11f0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <200602131052450177.005E4FE5@10.0.0.252> On 2/13/2006 at 10:24 AM Richard A. Cini wrote: >This brings up an interesting query. I remember way back when, people sold >BIOS upgrade cards that provided a BIOS extension so that you could use >hard drives not originally designed for the computer. What were these boards >called? Are you thinking of a DTC 1181? No controller, just a ROM on a card. Some later models also provide BIOS Y2K fixes. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 13 13:14:49 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 12:14:49 -0700 Subject: Add-on boards for VT-100 backplane In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:48:44 -0500. <267.59ab3d5.3121316c@aol.com> Message-ID: In article <267.59ab3d5.3121316c at aol.com>, Useddec at aol.com writes: > The VT103 had a Q-bus backplane. But NOT in the VT-100, right? The backplane looked custom to the VT-100 and not a standard backplane. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From drb at msu.edu Mon Feb 13 13:27:17 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 14:27:17 -0500 Subject: 1 cent ebay items for pickup only -- St. Charles, MO 63303 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:50:11 MST.) References: Message-ID: <200602131927.k1DJRHEh016311@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > 8765637723 IBM System/23 Datamaster for Pickup Only > 8765639131 IBM 5247 Hard Disk Unit for Pickup Only If I may join those in search of rides to mooch, anyone passing Michigan on the way to/from MO to collect, I'd be interested in talking to you about moving this S/23 gear. (I'm guessing that the 5247 is S/23 gear, though I can't recall from my brief stint on 23s years ago.) De From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Feb 13 13:34:48 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:34:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry Message-ID: I'm trying to restore an Osborne Executive, but there seems to be something wrong in the CRT circuitry. The machine powers up and beeps, but I see nothing on the CRT. Fiddling with the CRT pots does nothing. I hear none of the expected noises from the CRT circuitry, nor do I see or smell anything burnt. Can someone here point me in the right direction? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 13:38:17 2006 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:38:17 -0800 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <43F0294F.3030705@oldskool.org> References: <43F0294F.3030705@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90602131138r4ff57282q20bfcde5703d8768@mail.gmail.com> On 2/12/06, Jim Leonard wrote: > I just want a few tubes of these to populate the board, I'm not looking > for a box of 'em :-) Any pointers? www.unicornelectronics.com 511000-100 $1.89 quanity 25-99 From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Feb 13 13:48:21 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 20:48:21 +0100 Subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel (was: Re: Original 11/74 front panel) Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2325@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Very true, Pierre. It is a matter willingness to travel several hundreds of kilometers just to get something, but in the first instance it's of course a matter of luck. The years that the real old stuff was thrown out are gone. An 11/34 can be found with some patience, but the machines with many lights and switches are indeed becoming a "rare find". Edward and I travelled from The Netherlands to Italy to get two (!) 11/70's ... already some four years ago! We did not pay $1000 for the machines, but we both paid $400 for the truck rental. Almost the same, as in the end, your wallet is just as empty :-( - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Pierre Gebhardt Verzonden: ma 13-02-2006 18:26 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: sexy PDP-11/44 panel (was: Re: Original 11/74 front panel) > I guess there are more people on the list who have a boring > PDP-11/44 with a dull panel, that would like to make the /44 > more sexy with an 'appropriate' panel. The "upgrade" is, > of course, done in such a way that it can be undone ... > I (we) do not have a /74 panel :-( Well Henk, at least, you HAVE PDPs with a "lights and switches" console. Please think of those (I'm part of them!) who are eager to get one. 11/24 or 11/73s are nice, but unfortunately not the same. Today, it's almost impossible to get one...if you don't consider the possibility of buying one for a 1000$. THAT'S definitely the case for students like me. ... 11/74s are really cool! Thanks for that nice picture, Tim. Regards, Pierre This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Feb 13 13:55:26 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 14:55:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel (was: Re: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2325@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: > The years that the real old stuff was thrown out are gone. An 11/34 can be > found with some patience, but the machines with many lights and switches > are indeed becoming a "rare find". Getting hard to find, indeed, but I think there are quite a lot left to be uncovered. It takes patience and legwork. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Mon Feb 13 13:57:27 2006 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 14:57:27 -0500 Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.0.20060213144829.01972578@cogeco.ca> At 02:34 PM 2/13/2006, you wrote: >I'm trying to restore an Osborne Executive, but there seems to be >something wrong in the CRT circuitry. The machine powers up and beeps, >but I see nothing on the CRT. Fiddling with the CRT pots does nothing. >I hear none of the expected noises from the CRT circuitry, nor do I see or >smell anything burnt. Can someone here point me in the right direction? > >-- >David Griffith >dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Just a couple of suggestions, take a look at the back of the crt and see if the heater is lit. If not tube may be burned out or heater voltage may not be arriving at the socket. Also try looking at the face of the tube in a dark room with the brightness control turned up and switching off. If there is high voltage and the tube is just dim, you may see the raster collapse to a small dot on the screen. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 519-254-4991 cfox1 at cogeco.ca Check out The Camcorder Kindergarten at www.chasfoxvideo.com From john at guntersville.net Mon Feb 13 14:35:33 2006 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 14:35:33 -0600 Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry References: Message-ID: <43F0ED95.341EF078@guntersville.net> David Griffith wrote: > > I'm trying to restore an Osborne Executive, but there seems to be > something wrong in the CRT circuitry. The machine powers up and beeps, > but I see nothing on the CRT. Fiddling with the CRT pots does nothing. > I hear none of the expected noises from the CRT circuitry, nor do I see or > smell anything burnt. Can someone here point me in the right direction? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Check the composite video out at the RCA jack on the front panel. The same signals drive two buffer ICs, the composite comes through U22 and the internal CRT drive comes through u7. There needs to be a jumper plug on the external CRT edge connector, beside the RCA jack, in case yours is missing. That jumpers the CRT drive signals back into the internal monitor. John From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Feb 13 14:42:50 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 20:42:50 -0000 Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry In-Reply-To: <43F0ED95.341EF078@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <001101c630de$0f70c700$5b01a8c0@pc1> John C. Ellingboe wrote: > Check the composite video out at the RCA jack on the front panel. > The same signals drive two buffer ICs, the composite comes through > U22 and the internal CRT drive comes through u7. There needs to be a > jumper plug on the external CRT edge connector, beside the RCA jack, > in case yours is missing. That jumpers the CRT drive signals back > into the internal monitor. I'm sure I've read that that jumper plug on the Osborne (and hence possibly on the Osborne Executive) should only be inserted or removed with the machine powered off. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Feb 13 15:50:28 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:50:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry In-Reply-To: <001101c630de$0f70c700$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <001101c630de$0f70c700$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Feb 2006, a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > I'm sure I've read that that jumper plug on the Osborne > (and hence possibly on the Osborne Executive) should only > be inserted or removed with the machine powered off. So it says, right on the plug. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 15:10:26 2006 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:10:26 -0800 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: <43E7D828.2080104@mcdermith.net> <1e1fc3e90602071348h508dbd61ide07338198a2c047@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90602131310t3dd0e17cvc110c9ccafffc7db@mail.gmail.com> On 2/10/06, Mike Loewen wrote: > > Something about Autoplot triggered a distant memory, and I found a > couple of 5-1/4" diskettes which may be for the 2647F. The first is > labeled AUTOPLOT/47, with a part number of 02647-13401. > There are two other diskettes, with DEMO/47 and something else I'll > have to check on when I get home. > > What filesystem format did the 2647F use? > I have no idea what filesystem format was used on the 2647F. I'll have to hook mine up and create some data files and then take a look at the disks. Maybe it is something like LIF. If you can create some disk images of the disks you have I'd like to try creating disks from them and see if I do anything interesting with them. I have just a skimpy user manual for the 2647F but I think it does have some mention of Autoplot. I'll have to take a look at the manual. From rcini at optonline.net Mon Feb 13 15:12:24 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:12:24 -0500 Subject: BIOS upgrade cards In-Reply-To: <200602131052450177.005E4FE5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <002401c630e2$2f753370$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> I didn't remember the manufacturer but that's the kind of card I was thinking of. Thanks a lot. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 1:53 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: BIOS upgrade cards On 2/13/2006 at 10:24 AM Richard A. Cini wrote: >This brings up an interesting query. I remember way back when, people sold >BIOS upgrade cards that provided a BIOS extension so that you could use >hard drives not originally designed for the computer. What were these boards >called? Are you thinking of a DTC 1181? No controller, just a ROM on a card. Some later models also provide BIOS Y2K fixes. Cheers, Chuck From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Feb 13 15:19:13 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (dave04a at dunfield.com) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:19:13 -0500 Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry In-Reply-To: <001101c630de$0f70c700$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <43F0ED95.341EF078@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <200602132125.k1DLPjlM010075@mail1.magma.ca> > John C. Ellingboe wrote: > > > Check the composite video out at the RCA jack on the front panel. > > The same signals drive two buffer ICs, the composite comes through > > U22 and the internal CRT drive comes through u7. There needs to be a > > jumper plug on the external CRT edge connector, beside the RCA jack, > > in case yours is missing. That jumpers the CRT drive signals back > > into the internal monitor. > > I'm sure I've read that that jumper plug on the Osborne > (and hence possibly on the Osborne Executive) should only > be inserted or removed with the machine powered off. I don't know about the executive, however on the O-1, all the jumper does is connect the fingers on the top side of the board to the corresponding fingers to the bottom side of the board. The jumper plug is the same size as the cable connector for the small edge connector for a ST-506 type hard drive - I made a jumper plug for one of my O-1's by just bridging such a connector. A little bit if "filler glue" and a label made by photocopying the one from an official plug, and it is almost indistinguishable from the original plug. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. From john at guntersville.net Mon Feb 13 15:32:11 2006 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:32:11 -0600 Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry References: <43F0ED95.341EF078@guntersville.net> <200602132125.k1DLPjlM010075@mail1.magma.ca> Message-ID: <43F0FADB.CF6B4BC4@guntersville.net> dave04a at dunfield.com wrote: > > > John C. Ellingboe wrote: > > > > > Check the composite video out at the RCA jack on the front panel. > > > The same signals drive two buffer ICs, the composite comes through > > > U22 and the internal CRT drive comes through u7. There needs to be a > > > jumper plug on the external CRT edge connector, beside the RCA jack, > > > in case yours is missing. That jumpers the CRT drive signals back > > > into the internal monitor. > > > > I'm sure I've read that that jumper plug on the Osborne > > (and hence possibly on the Osborne Executive) should only > > be inserted or removed with the machine powered off. > > I don't know about the executive, however on the O-1, all the jumper > does is connect the fingers on the top side of the board to the corresponding > fingers to the bottom side of the board. The jumper plug is the same size as > the cable connector for the small edge connector for a ST-506 type hard drive > - I made a jumper plug for one of my O-1's by just bridging such a connector. > A little bit if "filler glue" and a label made by photocopying the one from an > official plug, and it is almost indistinguishable from the original plug. > > Dave They are the same.. I didn't know how familiar you were with the OZ machines and some people don't know that the jumper has to be there for the internal monitor to work. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Feb 13 15:39:06 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:39:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry In-Reply-To: <001101c630de$0f70c700$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <001101c630de$0f70c700$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Feb 2006, a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > John C. Ellingboe wrote: > > > Check the composite video out at the RCA jack on the front panel. > > The same signals drive two buffer ICs, the composite comes through > > U22 and the internal CRT drive comes through u7. There needs to be a > > jumper plug on the external CRT edge connector, beside the RCA jack, > > in case yours is missing. That jumpers the CRT drive signals back > > into the internal monitor. > > I'm sure I've read that that jumper plug on the Osborne > (and hence possibly on the Osborne Executive) should only > be inserted or removed with the machine powered off. That jumper pack is in place and I've only removed it once (with power off). -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 13 16:06:10 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:06:10 -0600 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90602131138r4ff57282q20bfcde5703d8768@mail.gmail.com> References: <43F0294F.3030705@oldskool.org> <1e1fc3e90602131138r4ff57282q20bfcde5703d8768@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43F102D2.5040106@oldskool.org> Glen Slick wrote: >>I just want a few tubes of these to populate the board, I'm not looking >>for a box of 'em :-) Any pointers? > > www.unicornelectronics.com > 511000-100 $1.89 quanity 25-99 Much obliged, thanks! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 13 16:50:11 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 14:50:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: BIOS upgrade cards In-Reply-To: <000201c630b1$988e11f0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <000201c630b1$988e11f0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <20060213144704.N74307@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 13 Feb 2006, Richard A. Cini wrote: > This brings up an interesting query. I remember way back when, people sold > BIOS upgrade cards that provided a BIOS extension so that you could use hard > drives not originally designed for the computer. What were these boards > called? An ability to add an extra ROM chip is handy. You COULD edit your existing BIOS, and burn a new ROM. In the 5150, there was room for 48K of ROMs, with 40K being used. There were a few aftermarket add-on ROMs. An extra board with ROM(s) would be handy. But, if you can manage to boot an OS with the existing hardware, it is trivial to write a TSR that can augment or supplant part or all of the ROM(s) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 13 17:29:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:29:15 -0800 Subject: BIOS upgrade cards In-Reply-To: <20060213144704.N74307@shell.lmi.net> References: <000201c630b1$988e11f0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> <20060213144704.N74307@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200602131529150906.015B75D1@10.0.0.252> On 2/13/2006 at 2:50 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >An ability to add an extra ROM chip is handy. >You COULD edit your existing BIOS, and burn a new ROM. >In the 5150, there was room for 48K of ROMs, with 40K being used. There >were a few aftermarket add-on ROMs. > >An extra board with ROM(s) would be handy. > >But, if you can manage to boot an OS with the existing hardware, it is >trivial to write a TSR that can augment or supplant part or all of the >ROM(s) What wasn't clear is if this was a 386 with an onboard hard disk controller. If not, I'd simply try to find a controller with its own BIOS and save a slot. Cheers, Chuck From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Feb 13 18:28:46 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 01:28:46 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div", To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Post In-Reply-To: <200602131800.k1DI04X5091506@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200602131800.k1DI04X5091506@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43F1243E.209@update.uu.se> "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > Hi All, > > I have noticed what may be an interesting result when I use the > PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div". Since I have noticed > at least one individual who worked on the microcode for the > PDP-11, perhaps there is an explicit "Yes / No" answer to my > question: Since this actually have nothing to do with the microcode, and actually is nothing specific with the PDP-11 DIV instruction, just about anyone should be able to answer definitely. > If I divide 196612 by 3 - i.e. "Div (R2),R0" where R0 = 3, R1 = 4, (R2) = 3 > the result (in addition to the condition bits) is R0 = 1, R1 = 1 which is > exactly correct if the quotient is regarded as a 32 bit result with R0 being > the low order 16 bits of that result and the high order 32 bits are somewhere > else - probably inaccessible as far as programming is concerned, but easily > obtained by: > Mov R1-(SP) ; Save low order 16 bits of dividend > Mov R0,R1 ; Divide high order 16 bits > Clr R0 ; of dividend > Div (R2),R0 ; by the divisor > Mov R0,R3 ; Save high order 16 bits of quotient > Mov R1,R0 ; Divide the remainder > Mov (SP)+,R1 ; of the dividend > Div (R2),R0 ; by the divisor > i.e. R3 now contains the high order 16 bits of the 32 bit quotient > with R0 holding the low order 16 bits of the 32 bit quotient What you have implemented here, as well as described, is the exact way you should have been taught how to do division on paper in elementary school. Yes, that algorithm is valid, and can be extended to arbitrary sizes, as long as you remember the full method. > Can anyone confirm what I have found in practice? Certainly. It's basic math, the way it's taught in elementary school. That was atleast the first way I was taught how do do divides on big numbers on paper. > Even better would be a method of retrieving the high > order 16 bits of the quotient in a manner which takes > fewer instructions and without a second divide instruction! I doubt you'll find it. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 13 09:14:55 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:14:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions? In-Reply-To: <06021119073700.01320@bell> from "joseph c lang" at Feb 11, 6 07:07:37 pm Message-ID: > The writeup that IBM published at the time, said they handled slot 8 > differently to support the expansion interface. The bus driver was normally > off unless a device the the expansion chassis was addressed. > I assume it would be for RFI reduction, but that's a guess on my part. > I will ahve to check the techref to see if the expansion card (I assume you mean the card that links to the 5161 expansion unit) does anything with pin B8. I do know that the expansion card does not _have_ to be in slot 8. It will work in any slot. It's supported on the 5155, where the card will not physically go in slot 8. Anf I've seen working systems with an Async card in slot 8 and the expansion card in some other slot. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 13 09:18:27 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:18:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sirius 1 (aka Victor 9000) on Ebay (UK) In-Reply-To: <20060212041339.54403.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 11, 6 08:13:39 pm Message-ID: > > I want one anyway. I WANT IT I WANT IT! Another > minimum mode 8088 I seem to perceive. Used to think I think so, but I would have to find the schematic to be sure. > that amounted to an 8085, but its not limited to 64k. > Chuckie also chose a non-conformist Hitachi crt I thought it was just amother 6845-a-like. But it addresses 2K*16 bits of SRAM, some of the outputs of which are used as part of an address to the main system DRAM which cotnains the character bitmaps (!). Not suprisingly, the Apricot does the same thing. There are enough outputs taken from the SRAM to form that address that each character cell on the screen can have a different bitmap assigned to it, thus allowing a rather eccentric bitmapped graphics mode. Oh yess, the brightness and contrast of the monitor are controlled by 2 3-bit ressitor ladder DACs driven by yet another 6522... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 13 09:50:18 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:50:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Mythbusters In-Reply-To: <20060212045550.10129.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 11, 6 08:55:50 pm Message-ID: > > although its been refuted on this list, I do seem to > recall reading that plugging a 5151 into a CGA card > was catastrophic - read IMPLOSION. Alas only a No way. Or perhaps you can explain the physcial mechanism for this. What will happen is that the horizontal output state will be driven way off frequency. The horizontal output transistor will fail, maybe (although unlikely) the flyback transformer too. The CRT shouldn't be harmed at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 13 09:52:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:52:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel (was: Re: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF269A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Feb 13, 6 03:41:04 pm Message-ID: > > Without thinking much about it, I'd say that mounting any > real blinkenlight console on a 11/44 is *not* trivial! > Of course, grabbing UNIBUS address- and data-lines and wiring > that to the lights is trivial, but to get all panel functions > (LOAD ADDR, DEP, EXAM, etc). working on an 11/44 is more work. I wondered about wiring the panel to the 8085 console processor, and re-writing that firmware to take commands from the panel switches, not from the serial port. But it's not something I am likely to work on any time soon... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 13 09:58:55 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:58:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Feb 13, 6 11:34:48 am Message-ID: > > > I'm trying to restore an Osborne Executive, but there seems to be > something wrong in the CRT circuitry. The machine powers up and beeps, > but I see nothing on the CRT. Fiddling with the CRT pots does nothing. > I hear none of the expected noises from the CRT circuitry, nor do I see or > smell anything burnt. Can someone here point me in the right direction? Do you have schematics? I don't, I've never seen one of these, so the below is the sort of tests I'd do on any small, conventional, mono monitor. My first thing would be to look at the CRT heater. If it's not glowing, then either it is open circuit (:-() or its power supply has failed. Yiu can test the former by carfully unplugging the CRT base connector and checking the resistance between the heater pins (3 and 4 for a 7 pin CRT, 1 and 8 for an 8 pin one, at least 99% of the time). If the heater is OK, the supply is missing. It will either come from one of the main PSU outputs (in which case, check for things like a fuse on the monitor mainboard), or from the horizontal output stage. The next thing I would do is to check the CRT voltages, including the EHT (I have an EHT meter :-)). This may point to the fact that the horizontal output stage isn't doing a lot -- maybe the transistor is open-circuit, maybe it's not geting any drive, and so on. -tony From CCTalk at catcorner.org Mon Feb 13 19:59:47 2006 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 20:59:47 -0500 Subject: Tandy Xenix disk images Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A337D0@mail.catcorner.org> I have created new disks. I was interpreting the DS/SS index hole incorrectly on the first try. Still trying to create ImageDisk images also. Doing these next, probably by Wednesday. Kelly From elf at ucsd.edu Mon Feb 13 21:40:13 2006 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 19:40:13 -0800 Subject: Dr. Strangelove -- Classic Computer sighting In-Reply-To: <200602121800.k1CI042w076743@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200602121800.k1CI042w076743@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20060213193125.02378358@popmail.ucsd.edu> [On Sun, 12 Feb 2006, Thomas Dzubin wrote:] >> A quick check of Google have multiple (independant?) web sites saying: >> "an IBM 7090 with a 1401 front-end" and "the 1403 printer playing a >> pivotal role in the plot" [On Sun, 12 Feb 2006, Mike Loewen wrote:] > I've made some screen grabs of the movie available on my site: > http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Strange1.jpg > http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Strange2.jpg > http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Strange3.jpg > http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Strange4.jpg > http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Strange5.jpg Cool -- thanks to both of you -- for posting those pictures -- and for ID'ing the machine! -Eric From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 22:32:07 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 23:32:07 -0500 Subject: eBay Item Not Won: Vintage Digital DECWriter IV terminal, DEC, serial (8761560822) In-Reply-To: <200602121423250646.0152568B@10.0.0.252> References: <20060212221218.63644.qmail@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200602121423250646.0152568B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 2/12/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2/12/2006 at 2:12 PM Mo wrote: > > > >There are still quite a few PDP-11, VAX, and Alpha end-users out there, > >who need replacement parts. I happily sold my Decwriter IV two years > >ago for a king's ransom to a gentleman with an alarm monitoring system. > > Those needing KSR units don't have many options. > > Is there any reason that a dumb terminal with a printer attached wouldn't > have worked? > > There are two DECwriter II here, which look like small study desks, waiting to be dumped. I guess $10 can buy two. vax, 9000 From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Feb 13 22:36:56 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 23:36:56 -0500 Subject: Older Monitors References: <200602121800.k1CI042w076743@dewey.classiccmp.org> <6.1.2.0.2.20060213193125.02378358@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <000c01c63120$4d310310$72781941@game> A thread was started on a forum I frequent about people matching up monitors with the equipment they collect. I have a few Commodore monitors with my Amigas, the correct Apple monitor for my IIgs and Atari monitor for my 1040STF but I could never find a decent working larger monitor for my vintage 68K Macs. The question I have is do the 19"+ Supermac/Radius type monitors have such a bad design that they lasted only a few years? How do early 1990's monitors of that size compare to the monitors that came before and after them? Also larger older monitors seem to use up quite a bit more electricity and generate quite a bit of heat (maybe thats why they didn't last), do you guys have issue with older monitors? From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 22:41:10 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 20:41:10 -0800 Subject: eBay Item Not Won: Vintage Digital DECWriter IV terminal, DEC, serial (8761560822) In-Reply-To: References: <20060212221218.63644.qmail@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200602121423250646.0152568B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: I, too, have access to a pair of Decwriter IIIs but they ould have to be shipped freight or delivered in the NW. Paxton Astoria, Oregon -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 23:00:26 2006 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:00:26 -0800 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: <43E7D828.2080104@mcdermith.net> <1e1fc3e90602071348h508dbd61ide07338198a2c047@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90602132100n707e4749kb5a4fa569daf5ee8@mail.gmail.com> On 2/10/06, Mike Loewen wrote: > > Something about Autoplot triggered a distant memory, and I found a > couple of 5-1/4" diskettes which may be for the 2647F. The first is > labeled AUTOPLOT/47, with a part number of 02647-13401. If I'm reading > the hex dump of what appears to be the directory sector correctly, it has > the following files: Can you create a disk image of the 02647-13401 disk (and other 2647 disks you may have)? The "getting started with your 2647F" manual (02647-90036) I have says that disk 02647-13401 is the BASIC / AUTOPLOT / 47 disk that I am missing. According to the manual the disks should be formatted with 256 byte sectors, double sided, 16 sectors per track, 1056 sectors total, which must mean 33 tracks, although the 13272 Flexible Disc System manual (13255-91223) says there are 35 tracks. From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Feb 13 23:35:13 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 00:35:13 -0500 Subject: PDP11/34 Mega Racks on Ebay... In-Reply-To: References: <20060212221218.63644.qmail@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200602121423250646.0152568B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43F16C11.40106@atarimuseum.com> Not mine... a LOT of nice equipment, make a Best Offer... In OH: http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-PDP1134-Mainframe-Racks-Disc-n-Tape-Drives_W0QQitemZ8754863240QQcategoryZ1247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.6/258 - Release Date: 2/13/2006 From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 13 23:57:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 22:57:50 -0700 Subject: eBay Item Not Won: Vintage Digital DECWriter IV terminal, DEC, serial (8761560822) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 13 Feb 2006 20:41:10 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Paxton Hoag writes: > I, too, have access to a pair of Decwriter IIIs but they ould have to > be shipped freight or delivered in the NW. Wait, so far there has been mention of: LA-36 DECwriter II LA-120 DECwriter III and DECwriter IV (dunno its LA- designation?) I have an LA-120 and am looking for an LA-36 (or a pair) and a DECwriter IV. Does anyone have DEC lineprinters or other printers w/out keyboards in their collections? Pictures? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 14 00:06:11 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 23:06:11 -0700 Subject: PDP11/34 Mega Racks on Ebay... In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 14 Feb 2006 00:35:13 -0500. <43F16C11.40106@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article <43F16C11.40106 at atarimuseum.com>, "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > Not mine... a LOT of nice equipment, make a Best Offer... In OH: Holy shit that's nice. Medical imaging. YUM! It would be crazy, man, crazy. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From news at computercollector.com Tue Feb 14 01:34:32 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 02:34:32 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <000401c6184e$27d95cb0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <00e301c63139$191dfb50$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Son of a b--ch! The bastard plagiarist is BACK. I just found this posted from five days after he finally removed it the first time: http://www.britishinformation.com/chat/showpost.php?p=7144&postcount=1 Yes, it has my name and link on it, but that DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT that he has NO PERMISSION to post my work. Last time this moron threated to sue ME ... LOL how can he sue me for saying "please stop stealing other people's work"...!? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 9:32 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists Thanks for the tip. It's now reduced to just "This guy is a liar." Oh well. At least that part's sometimes true. ;) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Williams Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 4:26 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists It appears that it has gone now (or moved). Dan From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Feb 14 03:11:25 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:11:25 +0100 Subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel (was: Re: Original 11/74 front panel) Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2328@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> That would certainly be a good approach, but also definitely not the easiest. Writing the required code in "pseudo language", then code in 8085 assembler and burn in EPROM is just one step, but you need some 50-60 I/O lines to control the lights and read the switches. That's additional hardware ... but I have not [yet] looked at the diagram of the 11/70 console. Perhaps you can modify it slightly and add multiplexers to get the I/O line count down. Also, but this depends a bit on the console you want to hang on the /44, you cannot simply connect the (data) LEDs to that UNIBUS DATA lines, because depending the knobs (on a /45 or /70) you must display something different. OTOH, a good question would be "to what extend must the attached panel be operational? Fully or partially?" If you select the /35 (aka /40) or even easier the /20 or /10 console you can safe yourself a lot of work. Or go one step further and add the /34 or /60 console on the /44. Not *that*, I would certainly *not* start on. Indeed, not going to attempt any of this, not even in the far future! But I would love to read the workz of others in this area! - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Tony Duell Verzonden: ma 13-02-2006 16:52 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: sexy PDP-11/44 panel (was: Re: Original 11/74 front panel) > > Without thinking much about it, I'd say that mounting any > real blinkenlight console on a 11/44 is *not* trivial! > Of course, grabbing UNIBUS address- and data-lines and wiring > that to the lights is trivial, but to get all panel functions > (LOAD ADDR, DEP, EXAM, etc). working on an 11/44 is more work. I wondered about wiring the panel to the 8085 console processor, and re-writing that firmware to take commands from the panel switches, not from the serial port. But it's not something I am likely to work on any time soon... -tony This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Feb 14 04:04:18 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 05:04:18 -0500 Subject: Older Monitors In-Reply-To: <000c01c63120$4d310310$72781941@game> References: <200602121800.k1CI042w076743@dewey.classiccmp.org> <6.1.2.0.2.20060213193125.02378358@popmail.ucsd.edu> <000c01c63120$4d310310$72781941@game> Message-ID: <20060214100418.88C87BA4882@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Teo Zenios" wrote: > The question I have is do the 19"+ Supermac/Radius type > monitors have such a bad design that they lasted only a few years? How do > early 1990's monitors of that size compare to the monitors that came before > and after them? I'm most familiar with DEC monitors of that size range (17", 19", and 21"), my impression is that the electronics (with a few modifications, such as no sync-on-green) were sold under other badges in that same era. While some of the generics (e.g. Idek) were superior to the DEC-branded units in reliability, it wasn't by a whole lot, and I think that my perception of reliability may be twisted by the fact that the generics came a couple of years after the DEC-branded ones. Realistically, yes, they lasted 3-4 years in their prime in 24x7 usage. And they were big-ticket items at the time too (list price in the $900-$1500 range) so typically they were repaired/refurbed and returned to service. Typically they would go a couple of cycles like this before they suffered a really catastrophic failure ("letting the smoke out"). Where I have worked we have literally hundreds of 21" monitors, most on 24x7. Only a few DEC units from the early 90's have survived to today. A few more Ideks and other generic units from the mid-90's. Most of these pre-1996 units have seen at least one repair/refurb. The Dell-branded monitors from the late 90's are generally still in service, although some have obvious CRT blooming. We also have lots of black Dell-branded 21" monitors from the last couple of years. Tim. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 04:17:03 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 05:17:03 -0500 Subject: PDP11/34 Mega Racks on Ebay... In-Reply-To: <43F16C11.40106@atarimuseum.com> References: <20060212221218.63644.qmail@web31501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200602121423250646.0152568B@10.0.0.252> <43F16C11.40106@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On 2/14/06, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Not mine... a LOT of nice equipment, make a Best Offer... In OH: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-PDP1134-Mainframe-Racks-Disc-n-Tape-Drives_W0QQitemZ8754863240QQcategoryZ1247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting $4,999 BIN?!? Dream on. I wonder what offer they'll get. I have an 11/34, so it's not something I'll pursue, but it'll be nice if you live close enough to go get it (and they really do take the "best" offer). -ethan From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Feb 14 04:59:24 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:59:24 +0000 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <00e301c63139$191dfb50$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <00e301c63139$191dfb50$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <43F1B80C.7080903@gjcp.net> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Son of a b--ch! The bastard plagiarist is BACK. I just found this posted > from five days after he finally removed it the first time: > > http://www.britishinformation.com/chat/showpost.php?p=7144&postcount=1 > > Yes, it has my name and link on it, but that DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT that > he has NO PERMISSION to post my work. > > Last time this moron threated to sue ME ... LOL how can he sue me for saying > "please stop stealing other people's work"...!? Administrative Contact Sarah Meheux: domainadmin at britishinformation.com Stem Distribution Ltd 64 Queens Road Beckenham, Kent BR3 4JL GB Phone 44 208 249 2690 Fax 44 208 249 2690 Want me to give them a phone? Gordon. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Feb 14 07:21:05 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 08:21:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90602132100n707e4749kb5a4fa569daf5ee8@mail.gmail.com> References: <43E7D828.2080104@mcdermith.net> <1e1fc3e90602071348h508dbd61ide07338198a2c047@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90602132100n707e4749kb5a4fa569daf5ee8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Feb 2006, Glen Slick wrote: > Can you create a disk image of the 02647-13401 disk (and other 2647 > disks you may have)? The "getting started with your 2647F" manual > (02647-90036) I have says that disk 02647-13401 is the BASIC / > AUTOPLOT / 47 disk that I am missing. I'll make images of the three disks that I have, and send you a pointer to them. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Feb 14 07:28:54 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 08:28:54 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div", To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Post In-Reply-To: <43F1243E.209@update.uu.se> References: <200602131800.k1DI04X5091506@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43F1243E.209@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <43F1DB16.9090908@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >"Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > > I have noticed what may be an interesting result when I use the > > PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div". Since I have noticed > > at least one individual who worked on the microcode for the > > PDP-11, perhaps there is an explicit "Yes / No" answer to my > > question: > Since this actually have nothing to do with the microcode, and > actually is nothing specific with the PDP-11 DIV instruction, just > about anyone should be able to answer definitely. Jerome Fine replies: I suggest that you might not be aware of the exact implementation of the PDP-11 integer "Div" instruction when an overflow occurs. Please see below! > > If I divide 196612 by 3 - i.e. "Div (R2),R0" where R0 = 3, R1 = 4, > (R2) = 3 > > the result (in addition to the condition bits) is R0 = 1, R1 = 1 > which is > > exactly correct if the quotient is regarded as a 32 bit result with > R0 being > > the low order 16 bits of that result and the high order 32 bits are > somewhere > > else - probably inaccessible as far as programming is concerned, but > easily > > obtained by: > > Mov R1-(SP) ; Save low order 16 bits of dividend > > Mov R0,R1 ; Divide high order 16 bits > > Clr R0 ; of dividend > > Div (R2),R0 ; by the divisor > > Mov R0,R3 ; Save high order 16 bits of quotient > > Mov R1,R0 ; Divide the remainder > > Mov (SP)+,R1 ; of the dividend > > Div (R2),R0 ; by the divisor > > i.e. R3 now contains the high order 16 bits of the 32 bit quotient > > with R0 holding the low order 16 bits of the 32 bit quotient > What you have implemented here, as well as described, is the exact way > you should have been taught how to do division on paper in elementary > school. > Yes, that algorithm is valid, and can be extended to arbitrary sizes, > as long as you remember the full method. I agree that the above code is the "correct" method to ensure a valid result. BUT, that is NOT what I am attempting to determine. Specifically, I have found that the following code also works: Mov R0,R3 Div (R2),R0 ; First Divide Instruction Tst R1 Bne Somewhere - since the quotient is not of interest when a non-zero remainder Mov R0,-(SP) Mov R3,R1 Clr R0 Div (R2),R0 ; Second Divide Instruction Mov (SP)+,R1 At this point, R0 / R1 now contains 32 bit quotient IF the first "Div" instruction places the low order 16 bits of the 32 bit quotient into R0. I have found this result in practice and since there is a VERY HIGH probability that the remainder is NOT zero, the above code is MUCH faster. Again, the specific question is IF the quotient of the "Div" instruction is the low order 16 bits of a 32 bit quotient all of the time or just when the high order 16 bits are all zero???????? > > Can anyone confirm what I have found in practice? > Certainly. It's basic math, the way it's taught in elementary school. > That was atleast the first way I was taught how do do divides on big > numbers on paper. I learned that also, but the observation is not relevant to my question. I realize that the DEC manual description of the "Div" instruction does not address the situation when the quotient exceeds 65535 (decimal) or 16 bits, but again, perhaps someone who knows the microcode might have an answer. > > Even better would be a method of retrieving the high > > order 16 bits of the quotient in a manner which takes > > fewer instructions and without a second divide instruction! > > I doubt you'll find it. I AGREE!! It would have been "nice" though if DEC knew where the value was and made that high order 16 bits available via the next instruction if the user needed it. That information would also have exactly defined whether or not the low order 16 bits of the quotient and the remainder were correct all of the time. Any comments on these TWO observations? I realize that the instruction set is long past being subject to change in DEC hardware, but that does not mean that an emulator could not manage to make a few small but vital improvements. And certainly, at least in SIMH, it is possible to examine the code to determine the answer to my original question. Does anyone have the code for the "Div" emulation in SIMH and what does happen when the high order 16 bits of the quotient are non-zero? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From robo58 at optonline.net Tue Feb 14 07:54:21 2006 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 08:54:21 -0500 Subject: Intel 80286 "DCU" Multibus system References: <4237.86.139.194.172.1139098546.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> <43E552E5.5090503@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <004001c6316e$28643fe0$6401a8c0@P43200> Hi Jules, Intel 310 systems were pretty common. On the RMX side they were used for industrial control and automation. On the Xenix side they were business systems used in transaction processing and distributed computing systems. A company called InBus purchased all of the rights for Intel's development and MBI/II systems and O/S's. http://www.inbus.com/products/multibus/mb1/default.htm#sys Robo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 8:20 PM Subject: Re: Intel 80286 "DCU" Multibus system > lee at geekdot.com wrote: >>> Anyone know if "DCU" is meaningful >> >> Data Concentrator Unit springs to mind, especially with the many ports >> option. > > Hmm, true. > > I've made a bit of progress - apparently the system as a whole is an Intel > 310. Still not much google info, but I'm on my way to bitsavers in a > sec... > > cheers > > Jules > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Feb 14 09:56:13 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 07:56:13 -0800 Subject: Just won HP 4952A / HP 18179A protocol analyzer/serial adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602140756130662.0F1A4726@192.168.42.129> Hi, Al, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 05-Feb-06 at 04:28 Al Kossow wrote: >> I have one of these at home and am also looking for disk images - > > especially the terminal emulator program. > >they'll be up for a day or two at http://www.bitsavers.org/HP4952A as >a dmk and raw images I just tried retrieving those for my own archives. The URL you give above is currently 404-compliant. Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From lee at geekdot.com Tue Feb 14 10:39:57 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (lee at geekdot.com) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 17:39:57 +0100 (CET) Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists Message-ID: <2258.86.139.194.172.1139935197.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Look what someone posted .. http://www.britishinformation.com/forums/about1931.html Lee. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Feb 14 10:48:05 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 08:48:05 -0800 Subject: have an extra M105 + M7821 unibus card? In-Reply-To: <018f01c62aa1$a9e50e60$6700a8c0@vrs> References: <200601312148.k0VLmbsf021571@mwave.heeltoe.com> <018f01c62aa1$a9e50e60$6700a8c0@vrs> Message-ID: <1139935685.7271.2.camel@linux.site> On Sun, 2006-02-05 at 14:15 -0800, vrs wrote: > From: "Brad Parker" > > Turns out the RX02 emulator needs an M105 and M7821 single height UNIBUS > > card to work. > > > > Anyone have an extra M105 and M7821? I have a number of M105 and M7821 boards available. $15/ea (ie $30 for the pair) + shipping. If anyone's interested. -- TTFN - Guy From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 14 10:58:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 09:58:43 -0700 Subject: PDP11/34 Mega Racks on Ebay... In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 14 Feb 2006 05:17:03 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Ethan Dicks writes: > On 2/14/06, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > Not mine... a LOT of nice equipment, make a Best Offer... In OH: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-PDP1134-Mainframe-Racks-Disc-n-Tape-Drives_ W0QQitemZ8754863240QQcategoryZ1247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebaypho tohosting > > $4,999 BIN?!? Dream on. So what do you think is a fair offer for this? Remember that the medical imaging peripherals are probably a one-of or handfull-of at this point. When I look at this, I don't see the 11/34 as the piece that's worthy of the pricetag, its the ensemble plus the rare imaging/graphics peripherals. Unless those peripherals and a similar system are easy to put together from pieces, but I'm not seeing those peripherals offered anywhere in the time I've been paying attention over the last year or so. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From news at computercollector.com Tue Feb 14 11:27:53 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 12:27:53 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <2258.86.139.194.172.1139935197.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <001201c6318b$fcdfac10$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Oy! This guy Stussy doesn't need my site, he needs some professional help. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of lee at geekdot.com Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 11:40 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists Look what someone posted .. http://www.britishinformation.com/forums/about1931.html Lee. From news at computercollector.com Tue Feb 14 11:28:35 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 12:28:35 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <43F1B80C.7080903@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <001301c6318c$16240680$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Sure, that couldn't hurt any more, right? :) Seriously, if you think you can talk sense into 'em, then by all means, I would appreciate it. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 5:59 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Son of a b--ch! The bastard plagiarist is BACK. I just found this posted > from five days after he finally removed it the first time: > > http://www.britishinformation.com/chat/showpost.php?p=7144&postcount=1 > > Yes, it has my name and link on it, but that DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT > that he has NO PERMISSION to post my work. > > Last time this moron threated to sue ME ... LOL how can he sue me for > saying "please stop stealing other people's work"...!? Administrative Contact Sarah Meheux: domainadmin at britishinformation.com Stem Distribution Ltd 64 Queens Road Beckenham, Kent BR3 4JL GB Phone 44 208 249 2690 Fax 44 208 249 2690 Want me to give them a phone? Gordon. From fryers at gmail.com Tue Feb 14 11:36:24 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 17:36:24 +0000 Subject: anyone heard of Berkely systems? In-Reply-To: <20060129075120.84186.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060129075120.84186.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: All, Apologies about the delay in reply. I am slowly working back through my inbox. On 1/29/06, Chris M wrote: > produced a 68000 based high end graphical unit. The > only mention Ive ever heard was this dude in Australia > (who has one). Now that you mention it, the name does ring a bell. I seem to remember tinkering with a Q22 uVax based sytem with Berkely Systems on the nameplate. I think the system may have originally purchased by the Physics Dept of the Uni of Western Australia. I have have the distinct impression that the Physcology Department also had a few Berkely Systems Vax/uVax stuff - but I could be very wrong here. I can't say that I ever seemed to pay much attention to the nameplates. Actually getting the machines running was always more of an interest. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From f5inl at wanadoo.fr Tue Feb 14 11:46:51 2006 From: f5inl at wanadoo.fr (Frederic BOSSU) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:46:51 +0100 Subject: === IBM 5151 terminal keyboard === Message-ID: <000001c6318e$a8ab6640$0b01a8c0@p4> Hi guys ! Should anyone help me and give me some informations regarding the keyboard signals and keyboard's connector pin assignment from the IBM 5151 terminal ? I supposed the pin assignment was the same as for the IBM 5121but it's not true... (The keyboard connector of the 5151 is a DB25 female, and using a single gender changer is not enough). Many thanks for your help ! Fred. --... ...-- -.. . ..-. ..... .. -. .-.. 73 de F5INL From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Feb 14 11:55:34 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 12:55:34 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <001301c6318c$16240680$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001301c6318c$16240680$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <200602141255.34302.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 14 February 2006 12:28, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Sure, that couldn't hurt any more, right? :) > > Seriously, if you think you can talk sense into 'em, then by all > means, I would appreciate it. Since he appears to be leeching images from your site, why don't you have some fun with him... either move your images, and replace the one's he's pointing to with something else (be creative), or have it give different images if the Referrer for the request is his site. Pat > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce > Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 5:59 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists > > 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > > Son of a b--ch! The bastard plagiarist is BACK. I just found > > this > > posted > > > from five days after he finally removed it the first time: > > > > http://www.britishinformation.com/chat/showpost.php?p=7144&postcoun > >t=1 > > > > Yes, it has my name and link on it, but that DOES NOT CHANGE THE > > FACT that he has NO PERMISSION to post my work. > > > > Last time this moron threated to sue ME ... LOL how can he sue me > > for saying "please stop stealing other people's work"...!? > > Administrative Contact > Sarah Meheux: domainadmin at britishinformation.com > Stem Distribution Ltd > 64 Queens Road > Beckenham, Kent BR3 4JL > GB > Phone 44 208 249 2690 > Fax 44 208 249 2690 > > Want me to give them a phone? > > Gordon. -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From news at computercollector.com Tue Feb 14 12:05:40 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:05:40 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <200602141255.34302.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <004201c63191$44153fa0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> have it give different images if the Referrer for the request is his site. How do I do that? I guess you should reply off-list since this is now getting too OT ... sorry Jay! :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 12:56 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists On Tuesday 14 February 2006 12:28, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Sure, that couldn't hurt any more, right? :) > > Seriously, if you think you can talk sense into 'em, then by all > means, I would appreciate it. Since he appears to be leeching images from your site, why don't you have some fun with him... either move your images, and replace the one's he's pointing to with something else (be creative), or have it give different images if the Referrer for the request is his site. Pat > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce > Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 5:59 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists > > 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > > Son of a b--ch! The bastard plagiarist is BACK. I just found > > this > > posted > > > from five days after he finally removed it the first time: > > > > http://www.britishinformation.com/chat/showpost.php?p=7144&postcoun > >t=1 > > > > Yes, it has my name and link on it, but that DOES NOT CHANGE THE > > FACT that he has NO PERMISSION to post my work. > > > > Last time this moron threated to sue ME ... LOL how can he sue me > > for saying "please stop stealing other people's work"...!? > > Administrative Contact > Sarah Meheux: domainadmin at britishinformation.com > Stem Distribution Ltd > 64 Queens Road > Beckenham, Kent BR3 4JL > GB > Phone 44 208 249 2690 > Fax 44 208 249 2690 > > Want me to give them a phone? > > Gordon. -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 14 12:58:22 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 12:58:22 -0600 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <00e301c63139$191dfb50$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <00e301c63139$191dfb50$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <43F2284E.7040907@oldskool.org> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Yes, it has my name and link on it, but that DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT that > he has NO PERMISSION to post my work. Does he have permission to link to it? Do *I* have permission to link to it? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 14 13:01:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:01:06 -0800 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <004201c63191$44153fa0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <004201c63191$44153fa0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <200602141101060580.058C4A94@10.0.0.252> On 2/14/2006 at 1:05 PM 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >>>> have it give different images if the Referrer for the request is his >site. > >How do I do that? It would be good to learn a little Javascript. The "document.referrer" property will tell you where your page was linked from. With that information, you can do a little more JS hocus-pocus and do whatever to you want to folks who have been referred from the guy's site. In point of fact, JS is useful for making things hard for others to copy. Since it's all out in the open, anyone can unravel your JS and get what they want, but it can be a bunch of trouble and that's usually enough of a deterrent. You could also do the same thing with a Java applet or a server-side script. Cheers, Chuck From news at computercollector.com Tue Feb 14 13:08:30 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 14:08:30 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <43F2284E.7040907@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <005201c6319a$0b325390$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I'm all for linking. In fact, the site is linked all over the web, and I love that. IMHO, no one should need permission to link. If you put a site on the public web, then anyone can link to it. The whole point of hypertext, right? Prudent quoting is just as okay-dokey. My problem is with wholesale copying. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Leonard Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 1:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Yes, it has my name and link on it, but that DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT > that he has NO PERMISSION to post my work. Does he have permission to link to it? Do *I* have permission to link to it? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Feb 14 13:17:59 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 11:17:59 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div", To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Post In-Reply-To: <43F1DB16.9090908@compsys.to> References: <200602131800.k1DI04X5091506@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43F1243E.209@update.uu.se> <43F1DB16.9090908@compsys.to> Message-ID: <43F22CE7.7070007@mindspring.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> >"Jerome H. Fine" wrote: >> > I have noticed what may be an interesting result when I use the >> > PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div". Since I have noticed >> > at least one individual who worked on the microcode for the >> > PDP-11, perhaps there is an explicit "Yes / No" answer to my >> > question: >> Since this actually have nothing to do with the microcode, and >> actually is nothing specific with the PDP-11 DIV instruction, just >> about anyone should be able to answer definitely. > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I suggest that you might not be aware of the exact implementation > of the PDP-11 integer "Div" instruction when an overflow occurs. > Please be aware there is no one "PDP-11 microcode". The internals and microflows of each machine are different, except for the 11/45-55 and 11/70 which are very closely related implementations (same basic core CPU). Some of the VLSI CPUs also tend to behave the same as they are based on the same core CPU (F11, J11, etc). How the DIV instruction behaves in boundary conditions (ie, when the true quotient can not be represented in 16b) can, but may not, be CPU specific. Some CPUs may generate the correct 16 LSB of the 32b quotient. Others may not. The PDP-11 programmers guide for various CPUs indicates that the only affect one can count on is that the 'V' bit is set. In practice, given the standard shift/subtract algorithms for binary division, it is probably the case that the 16b quotient is a true subset of the 32b quotient. However, there is no easy way to prove this without examining the microcode on each machine, or writing a test program and running it on each machine. SIMH implements PDP-11 DIV as: case 1: /* DIV */ if (!CPUO (OPT_EIS)) { setTRAP (TRAP_ILL); break; } src2 = dstreg? R[dstspec]: ReadW (GeteaW (dstspec)); src = (((uint32) R[srcspec]) << 16) | R[srcspec | 1]; if (src2 == 0) { N = 0; /* J11,11/70 compat */ Z = V = C = 1; /* N = 0, Z = 1 */ break; } if ((src == 020000000000) && (src2 == 0177777)) { V = 1; /* J11,11/70 compat */ N = Z = C = 0; /* N = Z = 0 */ break; } if (GET_SIGN_W (src2)) src2 = src2 | ~077777; if (GET_SIGN_W (R[srcspec])) src = src | ~017777777777; --> dst = src / src2; N = (dst < 0); /* N set on 32b result */ if ((dst > 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) { V = 1; /* J11,11/70 compat */ Z = C = 0; /* Z = C = 0 */ break; } --> R[srcspec] = dst & 0177777; ->> R[srcspec | 1] = (src - (src2 * dst)) & 0177777; Z = GET_Z (dst); V = C = 0; break; which would appear that the 16b quotient returned is the 16 LSB of the correct 32b quotient. > Please see below! > >> > If I divide 196612 by 3 - i.e. "Div (R2),R0" where R0 = 3, R1 = 4, >> (R2) = 3 >> > the result (in addition to the condition bits) is R0 = 1, R1 = 1 >> which is >> > exactly correct if the quotient is regarded as a 32 bit result with >> R0 being >> > the low order 16 bits of that result and the high order 32 bits are >> somewhere >> > else - probably inaccessible as far as programming is concerned, >> but easily >> > obtained by: >> > Mov R1-(SP) ; Save low order 16 bits of dividend >> > Mov R0,R1 ; Divide high order 16 bits >> > Clr R0 ; of dividend >> > Div (R2),R0 ; by the divisor >> > Mov R0,R3 ; Save high order 16 bits of quotient >> > Mov R1,R0 ; Divide the remainder >> > Mov (SP)+,R1 ; of the dividend >> > Div (R2),R0 ; by the divisor >> > i.e. R3 now contains the high order 16 bits of the 32 bit quotient >> > with R0 holding the low order 16 bits of the 32 bit quotient >> What you have implemented here, as well as described, is the exact >> way you should have been taught how to do division on paper in >> elementary school. >> Yes, that algorithm is valid, and can be extended to arbitrary sizes, >> as long as you remember the full method. > > I agree that the above code is the "correct" method to ensure > a valid result. BUT, that is NOT what I am attempting to determine. > > Specifically, I have found that the following code also works: > Mov R0,R3 > Div (R2),R0 ; First Divide Instruction > Tst R1 > Bne Somewhere - since the quotient is not of interest when a > non-zero remainder > Mov R0,-(SP) > Mov R3,R1 > Clr R0 > Div (R2),R0 ; Second Divide Instruction > Mov (SP)+,R1 > At this point, R0 / R1 now contains 32 bit quotient IF the first > "Div" instruction places the low order 16 bits of the 32 bit > quotient into R0. I have found this result in practice and since > there is a VERY HIGH probability that the remainder is NOT > zero, the above code is MUCH faster. > > Again, the specific question is IF the quotient of the "Div" instruction > is the low order 16 bits of a 32 bit quotient all of the time or just > when the high order 16 bits are all zero???????? > >> > Can anyone confirm what I have found in practice? >> Certainly. It's basic math, the way it's taught in elementary school. >> That was atleast the first way I was taught how do do divides on big >> numbers on paper. > > I learned that also, but the observation is not relevant > to my question. > > I realize that the DEC manual description of the "Div" instruction > does not address the situation when the quotient exceeds 65535 > (decimal) or 16 bits, but again, perhaps someone who knows > the microcode might have an answer. > >> > Even better would be a method of retrieving the high >> > order 16 bits of the quotient in a manner which takes >> > fewer instructions and without a second divide instruction! >> >> I doubt you'll find it. > > I AGREE!! It would have been "nice" though if > DEC knew where the value was and made that high > order 16 bits available via the next instruction > if the user needed it. That information would > also have exactly defined whether or not the low > order 16 bits of the quotient and the remainder > were correct all of the time. Any comments on these > TWO observations? > > I realize that the instruction set is long past being > subject to change in DEC hardware, but that does not > mean that an emulator could not manage to make a few > small but vital improvements. And certainly, at least > in SIMH, it is possible to examine the code to determine > the answer to my original question. Does anyone have > the code for the "Div" emulation in SIMH and what does > happen when the high order 16 bits of the quotient are > non-zero? > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > -- > If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail > address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk > e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be > obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the > 'at' with the four digits of the current year. > > From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Feb 14 13:21:40 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 20:21:40 +0100 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <200602141101060580.058C4A94@10.0.0.252> References: <004201c63191$44153fa0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <43F23BD4.11737.B1C8099B@localhost> Am 14 Feb 2006 11:01 meinte Chuck Guzis: > On 2/14/2006 at 1:05 PM 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > >>>> have it give different images if the Referrer for the request is his > >site. > >How do I do that? > It would be good to learn a little Javascript. The "document.referrer" > property will tell you where your page was linked from. With that > information, you can do a little more JS hocus-pocus and do whatever to you > want to folks who have been referred from the guy's site. > In point of fact, JS is useful for making things hard for others to copy. > Since it's all out in the open, anyone can unravel your JS and get what > they want, but it can be a bunch of trouble and that's usually enough of a > deterrent. > You could also do the same thing with a Java applet or a server-side > script. Perfect solution ... except that I usualy choos the simple aproach: If someone uses my pics from MY server (and sucks bandwith) I just change the URL - a simple search and replace thru all my pages keeps my pages intact - and then I place a nice file at the old location, informing all visitors (of the other site) what happened, and how much I enjoyed his theft of bandwith. No Java, no complicated programms. If you realy want to go for the referer aproach, you should keep in mind that this will invalidate not only all reachbots (so, noone will find you page by searching for a picture of a specific machine), but also ban users from seeing picture wo either have unusual browser, or who are concerned about their privacy, and therefore have configured their browser not to send referer-header. Also, before using Java and bloating the pages, a simple regexp in the server configuration for the picture files can do the same trick. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Tue Feb 14 13:27:17 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 20:27:17 +0100 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <005201c6319a$0b325390$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <43F2284E.7040907@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43F23D25.470.B1CD2FD8@localhost> Am 14 Feb 2006 14:08 meinte 'Computer Collector Newsletter': > I'm all for linking. In fact, the site is linked all over the web, and I > love that. > IMHO, no one should need permission to link. If you put a site on the > public web, then anyone can link to it. The whole point of hypertext, > right? YES, you nailed it. There are only two things which are bad: - copying a whole or partitional site (maybe with an exception for archiving/searching purpose and if permission to copy is given) - and stealing bandwith by using pictures from your site on his own without copying > Prudent quoting is just as okay-dokey. My problem is with wholesale > copying. Well, you'll always have a hard time if someone is wgeting a whole page or site. Almost no way to chatch easy. At leas it desn't cost you additional money, as it is the case if he's only copying the text, and stil linking to your original pictures. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From news at computercollector.com Tue Feb 14 13:43:05 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 14:43:05 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <43F23D25.470.B1CD2FD8@localhost> Message-ID: <006101c6319e$e0437970$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Hans, thank you, I appreciate the support! (And from everyone else here on cctalk as well -- thank you.) ...Although it has nothing to do with bandwidth or money as far as I'm concerned. I write for a living, I worked for years on that site, and it's not "open source" for anyone to copy. The guy who copied it insists he did so for my own benefit, but it's not anyone else's IP but mine to decide what to do with, ya know? If I wanted other people's opinions to influence how it's presented, then I would have posted a wiki instead. I think even Richard Stallman would understand that. :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Hans Franke Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 2:27 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists Am 14 Feb 2006 14:08 meinte 'Computer Collector Newsletter': > I'm all for linking. In fact, the site is linked all over the web, > and I love that. > IMHO, no one should need permission to link. If you put a site on the > public web, then anyone can link to it. The whole point of hypertext, > right? YES, you nailed it. There are only two things which are bad: - copying a whole or partitional site (maybe with an exception for archiving/searching purpose and if permission to copy is given) - and stealing bandwith by using pictures from your site on his own without copying > Prudent quoting is just as okay-dokey. My problem is with wholesale > copying. Well, you'll always have a hard time if someone is wgeting a whole page or site. Almost no way to chatch easy. At leas it desn't cost you additional money, as it is the case if he's only copying the text, and stil linking to your original pictures. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Feb 14 13:35:09 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 14:35:09 -0500 Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602141435.09764.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 13 February 2006 02:34 pm, David Griffith wrote: > I'm trying to restore an Osborne Executive, but there seems to be > something wrong in the CRT circuitry. The machine powers up and beeps, > but I see nothing on the CRT. Fiddling with the CRT pots does nothing. > I hear none of the expected noises from the CRT circuitry, nor do I see or > smell anything burnt. Can someone here point me in the right direction? First question is, do you have that jumper plug in place? The one that bears a sticker about not removing it while power is on, or something to that effect. This is visible on the front panel, and if it's not there you'll get exactly nothing from the monitor at all. The plug I refer to is visible at: http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Osborne/Executive4L.jpg just to the right of the two monitor knobs and to the left of the reset button. If it's missing (I've encountered this on some O-1s), you can possibly jump from top to bottom of the board in a few places and get things working. If this isn't the problem, then what you're most likely seeing is bad capacitors in the monitor itself. Mine worked the last time I had it on, but there was just a little bit of jitter to the display. I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't work the next time I tried it, but then I have a spare monitor tucked away that I picked up some years ago. There's also that composite video output over on the right -- try plugging that into something, either a TV with composite input or if you don't have one handy the video input of a VCR to use its modulator to feed into the TV. I happen to have a Zenith 12" amber monitor that I used for this purpose as well. If you don't get any display at all, then there may be problems with the logic board, though getting the beep makes this sound less likely. If the monitor itself is the problem, I remember reading in some issues of "FOGHORN" years back that there were certain capacitors in the monitor assembly that would cause problems, though I don't remember which ones they were. The monitor itself was apparently made by Zenith, but I have not yet been able to locate a schematic for that portion of things, though I have complete tech info on the rest of the computer. If anybody knows where I might find a schematic of the monitor as well I'd sure like to hear about it. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Feb 14 13:48:39 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 20:48:39 +0100 Subject: seeking connection information of CRT assy of Olivetti M21 Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2329@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi all, I got an amber 10" monitor that was originally in an Olivetti M21. I like the screen size and the color, so I would like to build some sort of terminal with it. From the PCB comes a flat cable which ends in a DB25 connector. As this is all connections I see, I assume that it gets a low voltage power supplied via this cable. Does anybody have more info on this connector? thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From bqt at update.uu.se Tue Feb 14 14:00:38 2006 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:00:38 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div" In-Reply-To: <200602141800.k1EI0IOO005545@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200602141800.k1EI0IOO005545@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43F236E6.5080303@update.uu.se> "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: >>Johnny Billquist wrote: > > >>>> >"Jerome H. Fine" wrote: >>>> > I have noticed what may be an interesting result when I use the >>>> > PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div". Since I have noticed >>>> > at least one individual who worked on the microcode for the >>>> > PDP-11, perhaps there is an explicit "Yes / No" answer to my >>>> > question: >> >>> Since this actually have nothing to do with the microcode, and >>> actually is nothing specific with the PDP-11 DIV instruction, just >>> about anyone should be able to answer definitely. > > >Jerome Fine replies: > >I suggest that you might not be aware of the exact implementation >of the PDP-11 integer "Div" instruction when an overflow occurs. But the algorithm can't produce an overflow. However, it requires that the math be unsigned. Herein lies a problem; the DIV instruction is signed, so the result cannot be allowed to be > 32767. Afraid that problem really kicks butt. Oh well, you cannot use the DIV instruction then. Interestingly enough, it seems as if atleast E11 don't work the same way as a real PDP-11 in this case. I really need to check this more. It might be neccesary to report this to John Wilson. In E11, the V flag is still set, but it also actually performs the division. The J11 does not. What have you tried your code on? I believe it shouldn't have produced correct results for you on a real PDP-11, but I believe it would on E11. Don't know about SIMH, or other PDP-11 emulators (and I've only tested a real J11 so far, I'll try to check on a real 11/70 tomorrow). >Please see below! Happy to. >>>> > If I divide 196612 by 3 - i.e. "Div (R2),R0" where R0 = 3, R1 = 4, >> >>> (R2) = 3 >> >>>> > the result (in addition to the condition bits) is R0 = 1, R1 = 1 >> >>> which is >> >>>> > exactly correct if the quotient is regarded as a 32 bit result with >> >>> R0 being >> >>>> > the low order 16 bits of that result and the high order 32 bits are >> >>> somewhere >> >>>> > else - probably inaccessible as far as programming is concerned, but >> >>> easily >> >>>> > obtained by: [...] Well, now that I'v actually tested this, I can tell you that this works in E11, but does not work on a J11. If you load R0=3, R1=4, R2=3 and do a DIV R2,R0, the only thing that happens is that the V-bit of the PSW is set, and the registers remain unchanged. >I agree that the above code is the "correct" method to ensure >a valid result. BUT, that is NOT what I am attempting to determine. Well, what we now know is that the piece of code you have will not actually produce correct results on a real PDP-11, since we have a overflow into the sign bit, which aborts the DIV instruction. >Specifically, I have found that the following code also works: > Mov R0,R3 > Div (R2),R0 ; First Divide Instruction > Tst R1 > Bne Somewhere - since the quotient is not of interest when a non-zero remainder > Mov R0,-(SP) > Mov R3,R1 > Clr R0 > Div (R2),R0 ; Second Divide Instruction > Mov (SP)+,R1 >At this point, R0 / R1 now contains 32 bit quotient IF the first >"Div" instruction places the low order 16 bits of the 32 bit >quotient into R0. I have found this result in practice and since >there is a VERY HIGH probability that the remainder is NOT >zero, the above code is MUCH faster. And this will totally fail on atleast a J11, and probably all other "real" PDP-11s. At overflow, nothing gets computed. The register remain unchanged. >Again, the specific question is IF the quotient of the "Div" instruction >is the low order 16 bits of a 32 bit quotient all of the time or just >when the high order 16 bits are all zero???????? Basically never. It the quotient can't be expressed in *15* bits, the registers will remain unchanged. >>>> > Can anyone confirm what I have found in practice? >> >>> Certainly. It's basic math, the way it's taught in elementary school. >>> That was atleast the first way I was taught how do do divides on big >>> numbers on paper. > > >I learned that also, but the observation is not relevant >to my question. True. The algorithm is correct, but the PDP-11 DIV instruction have more limitations. You could use it if you played with smaller quantities. Easiest would be to work at 8 bits at a time instead of 16. However, that also requires the divisor to only be 8 bits, which might be a bit limiting. If you do 15 bits at a time, you're at the limit of the DIV instuction, but still working. You have to do the bit packing and unpacking though. And all that will probably take much more time than just implementing a DIV yourself. >I realize that the DEC manual description of the "Div" instruction >does not address the situation when the quotient exceeds 65535 >(decimal) or 16 bits, but again, perhaps someone who knows >the microcode might have an answer. Uh. My processor handbooks actually do address the situation, but it's actually when it exceeds 32767. And I have three different processor handbooks here. (1977-1978 pdp11/70 processor handbook, 1979-1980 pdp11 processor handbook for pdp11/04/34a/44/60/70, and 1983-1984 PDP-11 Architecture Handbook). Look in any processor handbook you have at the DIV instruction, and the V condition. >>>> > Even better would be a method of retrieving the high >>>> > order 16 bits of the quotient in a manner which takes >>>> > fewer instructions and without a second divide instruction! >> >>> >>> I doubt you'll find it. > > >I AGREE!! It would have been "nice" though if >DEC knew where the value was and made that high >order 16 bits available via the next instruction >if the user needed it. That information would >also have exactly defined whether or not the low >order 16 bits of the quotient and the remainder >were correct all of the time. Any comments on these >TWO observations? Unfortunately, the DIV instruction is explicitly a 16-bit signed divide. They actually don't do a 32-bit divide, so there aren't any upper 16 bits to tell about somehow. >I realize that the instruction set is long past being >subject to change in DEC hardware, but that does not >mean that an emulator could not manage to make a few >small but vital improvements. And certainly, at least >in SIMH, it is possible to examine the code to determine >the answer to my original question. Does anyone have >the code for the "Div" emulation in SIMH and what does >happen when the high order 16 bits of the quotient are >non-zero? Afraid I haven't looked at simh in a while, and I also apologize for my previous answer. I was just observing the algorithm, and not how the PDP-11 DIV instruction actually worked. I should have looked in the processor handbook, which I did this time. But then again, since you observed that your code worked, then I had no reason to doubt it. But in fact, it will not work on a real PDP-11. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 14 14:10:00 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 14:10:00 -0600 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <004201c63191$44153fa0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <004201c63191$44153fa0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <43F23918.8080404@oldskool.org> Search apache docs for "referrer" and you'll find it. mod-referrer, I think. We do this on mobygames.com -- go ahead and try to link to an image on your own page to see what you get instead :-) 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >>>>have it give different images if the Referrer for the request is his > > site. > > How do I do that? > > I guess you should reply off-list since this is now getting too OT ... sorry > Jay! :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan > Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 12:56 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists > > On Tuesday 14 February 2006 12:28, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' > wrote: > >>Sure, that couldn't hurt any more, right? :) >> >>Seriously, if you think you can talk sense into 'em, then by all >>means, I would appreciate it. > > > Since he appears to be leeching images from your site, why don't you have > some fun with him... either move your images, and replace the one's he's > pointing to with something else (be creative), or have it give different > images if the Referrer for the request is his site. > > Pat > > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >>[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce >>Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 5:59 AM >>To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists >> >>'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >> >>>Son of a b--ch! The bastard plagiarist is BACK. I just found >>>this >> >>posted >> >> >>>from five days after he finally removed it the first time: >>> >>>http://www.britishinformation.com/chat/showpost.php?p=7144&postcoun >>>t=1 >>> >>>Yes, it has my name and link on it, but that DOES NOT CHANGE THE >>>FACT that he has NO PERMISSION to post my work. >>> >>>Last time this moron threated to sue ME ... LOL how can he sue me >>>for saying "please stop stealing other people's work"...!? >> >> Administrative Contact >> Sarah Meheux: domainadmin at britishinformation.com >> Stem Distribution Ltd >> 64 Queens Road >> Beckenham, Kent BR3 4JL >> GB >> Phone 44 208 249 2690 >> Fax 44 208 249 2690 >> >>Want me to give them a phone? >> >>Gordon. > > > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 14 14:15:53 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 14:15:53 -0600 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <005201c6319a$0b325390$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <005201c6319a$0b325390$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <43F23A79.2070008@oldskool.org> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > I'm all for linking. In fact, the site is linked all over the web, and I > love that. > > IMHO, no one should need permission to link. If you put a site on the > public web, then anyone can link to it. The whole point of hypertext, > right? > > Prudent quoting is just as okay-dokey. My problem is with wholesale > copying. +2 INT for the right answer ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Feb 14 14:19:47 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 12:19:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: seeking connection information of CRT assy of Olivetti M21 Message-ID: <200602142019.MAA22221@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi Henk I just did some google and found a web page that looks like it may have technical docs for the M21. Look at: http://www.elhvb.com/mboards/olivetti/system1.html Selecting cap1.pdf brings up a email request. I'm not sure if it will lead to anything but you might get a schematic showing the connector pins. Dwight >From: "Gooijen, Henk" > >Hi all, >I got an amber 10" monitor that was originally in an Olivetti M21. >I like the screen size and the color, so I would like to build some >sort of terminal with it. From the PCB comes a flat cable which >ends in a DB25 connector. As this is all connections I see, >I assume that it gets a low voltage power supplied via this cable. > >Does anybody have more info on this connector? > > thanks, >- Henk, PA8PDP. > > > > >This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. >If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. >If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. >Thank you for your cooperation. > > From spc at conman.org Tue Feb 14 14:22:47 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:22:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <200602141101060580.058C4A94@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 14, 2006 11:01:06 AM Message-ID: <20060214202248.7D59973029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > > You could also do the same thing with a Java applet or a server-side > script. If you are using Apache (a good chance) you can use mod_rewrite (if it's enabled) to check the referer and redirect (internally within Apache) to another graphic or just return a 404. Works reguardless if Javascript is enabled or not. It would look something like: RewriteCond %{REQUEST_URI} .*\.jpg$ RewriteRule %{HTTP_REFERER} !^http://www\.example\.net/.* RewriteRule .* /dont.steal.my.pics.jpg -spc (Untested, may not work, read the documentation, etc etc) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 13 21:55:02 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 03:55:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: eBay Item Not Won: Vintage Digital DECWriter IV terminal, DEC, In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Feb 13, 6 10:57:50 pm Message-ID: > > Does anyone have DEC lineprinters or other printers w/out keyboards in > their collections? Pictures? I've got at least one LA100 (receive-only) in my collection (and I think a KSR one with a keyboard). Externally these look like a DECwriter 4, but have redesigned internals, with a printhead that's shiffted up and down mechancially to give twice the verical resouliton (the NLQ font is printed in 2 passes, one with the head in each posuition). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 13 21:58:55 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 03:58:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel (was: Re: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2328@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Feb 14, 6 10:11:25 am Message-ID: > > That would certainly be a good approach, but also definitely not the easies= > t. > Writing the required code in "pseudo language", then code in 8085 assembler= > > and burn in EPROM is just one step, but you need some 50-60 I/O lines to > control the lights and read the switches. That's additional hardware ... bu= The main problem is tha the 8085 bus is not brought off the PCB AFAIK. You'd have to pick up the address/data by, say, plggybacking on top of the 8085. Once you've done that, adding the I/O ports is not hard, just 3-state buffers for inputsn and latches for outputs. > t > I have not [yet] looked at the diagram of the 11/70 console. Perhaps you ca= > n > modify it slightly and add multiplexers to get the I/O line count down. Not having any spare lights-and-switches boards, I was assuming you'd make this from scratch.. Not that it would make that much difference. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 13 22:01:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 04:01:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <43F1B80C.7080903@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Feb 14, 6 10:59:24 am Message-ID: > Want me to give them a phone? I would have thought giving them a clue was more appropriate -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 13 22:12:15 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 04:12:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry In-Reply-To: <200602141435.09764.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Feb 14, 6 02:35:09 pm Message-ID: > The monitor itself was apparently made by Zenith, but I have not yet been > able to locate a schematic for that portion of things, though I have > complete tech info on the rest of the computer. If anybody knows where I > might find a schematic of the monitor as well I'd sure like to hear about it. How hard would it be to trace out a schematic? OK, Zenith often used house-coded ICs which will make things slightly more difficult, but at least they're not custom ICs so they can be identified in the end. I can't believe a small mono monitor is _that_ complicated. -tony From henk.gooijen at oce.com Tue Feb 14 14:51:27 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:51:27 +0100 Subject: seeking connection information of CRT assy of Olivetti M21 Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE232A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Thanks Dwight. I will do some more Googling tomorrow, and wade through the results :-( I tried the link a few times, but I get a 404. Will try it again tomorrow too. - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Dwight Elvey Verzonden: di 14-02-2006 21:19 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: seeking connection information of CRT assy of Olivetti M21 Hi Henk I just did some google and found a web page that looks like it may have technical docs for the M21. Look at: http://www.elhvb.com/mboards/olivetti/system1.html Selecting cap1.pdf brings up a email request. I'm not sure if it will lead to anything but you might get a schematic showing the connector pins. Dwight >From: "Gooijen, Henk" > >Hi all, >I got an amber 10" monitor that was originally in an Olivetti M21. >I like the screen size and the color, so I would like to build some >sort of terminal with it. From the PCB comes a flat cable which >ends in a DB25 connector. As this is all connections I see, >I assume that it gets a low voltage power supplied via this cable. > >Does anybody have more info on this connector? > > thanks, >- Henk, PA8PDP. > > > > This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From john at guntersville.net Tue Feb 14 14:54:46 2006 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 14:54:46 -0600 Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry References: Message-ID: <43F24396.9EFF56CA@guntersville.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > > The monitor itself was apparently made by Zenith, but I have not yet been > > able to locate a schematic for that portion of things, though I have > > complete tech info on the rest of the computer. If anybody knows where I > > might find a schematic of the monitor as well I'd sure like to hear about it. > > How hard would it be to trace out a schematic? OK, Zenith often used > house-coded ICs which will make things slightly more difficult, but at > least they're not custom ICs so they can be identified in the end. I > can't believe a small mono monitor is _that_ complicated. > > -tony Both Dave and Roy now have the Monitor schematics for the Exec. It is all discrete components. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Feb 14 14:59:44 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 12:59:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Feb 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > > The monitor itself was apparently made by Zenith, but I have not yet > > been able to locate a schematic for that portion of things, though I > > have complete tech info on the rest of the computer. If anybody knows > > where I might find a schematic of the monitor as well I'd sure like to > > hear about it. > > How hard would it be to trace out a schematic? OK, Zenith often used > house-coded ICs which will make things slightly more difficult, but at > least they're not custom ICs so they can be identified in the end. I > can't believe a small mono monitor is _that_ complicated. I've acquired schematics for the CRT subsection. All the ICs used are 74ls series logic. I think I have what I need to do some meaningful diagnosis. I'll follow up when I get the time to sit down and fiddle with the machine. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Feb 14 14:56:03 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:56:03 -0500 Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602141556.03693.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 13 February 2006 11:12 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > The monitor itself was apparently made by Zenith, but I have not yet > > been able to locate a schematic for that portion of things, though I > > have complete tech info on the rest of the computer. If anybody knows > > where I might find a schematic of the monitor as well I'd sure like to > > hear about it. > > How hard would it be to trace out a schematic? OK, Zenith often used > house-coded ICs which will make things slightly more difficult, but at > least they're not custom ICs so they can be identified in the end. I > can't believe a small mono monitor is _that_ complicated. Well, since around the time we closed up our shop (April of 1992) I've been having to use a lighted magnifier to be able to see stuff that I was able to deal with quite nicely before, I'm not up to it. Sucks, but there it is, and I just deal with it. You'd also need to remove some of the stuff from the assembly, which is pretty tight. And, shining a strong light through the boards to see where traces go etc. is complicated by the fact that Zenith used blobs of hot glue to hold the bulkier components in place, including a lot of the caps, TO220 transistors, etc. I once tried to acquire a schematic from Zenith, since we were a ZDS service center at the time, but apparently ZDS knew nothing about this side of things, and I wasn't successful. I imagine that info has to be out there somewhere. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 14 15:12:55 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:12:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: anyone heard of Berkely systems? In-Reply-To: References: <20060129075120.84186.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060214131137.I78423@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 14 Feb 2006, Simon Fryer wrote: > I seem to remember tinkering with a Q22 uVax based sytem with Berkely > Systems on the nameplate. > > I can't say that I ever seemed to pay much attention to the > nameplates. Especially since the Berkeley Systems that I knew was spelled BERKELEY. From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 14 15:25:02 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:25:02 -0600 Subject: Online manual repository? Message-ID: <43F24AAE.3070803@oldskool.org> I lost yet another bid for the Technical Reference Manual for IBM PC-XT; is there an online tech ref manual archive somewhere? I hate to keep bugging you guys with questions; I'd rather consult tech docs and *then* ask if I'm stumped. But if these things keep going for $50, $100, or more on ebay I won't ever get a hold of a copy... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Feb 14 15:23:06 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 16:23:06 -0500 Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry In-Reply-To: <43F24396.9EFF56CA@guntersville.net> References: <43F24396.9EFF56CA@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <200602141623.06607.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 14 February 2006 03:54 pm, John C. Ellingboe wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > The monitor itself was apparently made by Zenith, but I have not yet > > > been able to locate a schematic for that portion of things, though I > > > have complete tech info on the rest of the computer. If anybody knows > > > where I might find a schematic of the monitor as well I'd sure like to > > > hear about it. > > > > How hard would it be to trace out a schematic? OK, Zenith often used > > house-coded ICs which will make things slightly more difficult, but at > > least they're not custom ICs so they can be identified in the end. I > > can't believe a small mono monitor is _that_ complicated. > > > > -tony > > Both Dave and Roy now have the Monitor schematics for the Exec. > It is all discrete components. Yup! They got here just fine... And if anybody is working on any Osborne, Kaypro, or C64 stuff feel free to give a holler as I did quite a bit of that and have tech info available if I need it. And lots of parts, particularly for the c64 stuff (although I could use a mess of SID chips if anybody has any units I could scrap for them). -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Feb 14 15:35:37 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:35:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: seeking connection information of CRT assy of Olivetti M21 Message-ID: <200602142135.NAA24630@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi Henk 'Got the pointer wrong, should be: http://www.elhvb.com/mboards/olivetti/systems1.html Take care Dwight >From: "Gooijen, Henk" > >Thanks Dwight. >I will do some more Googling tomorrow, and wade through the results :-( >I tried the link a few times, but I get a 404. Will try it again tomorrow too. > >- Henk. > >________________________________ > >Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Dwight Elvey >Verzonden: di 14-02-2006 21:19 >Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Onderwerp: Re: seeking connection information of CRT assy of Olivetti M21 > > > >Hi Henk > I just did some google and found a web page that >looks like it may have technical docs for the M21. >Look at: > >http://www.elhvb.com/mboards/olivetti/system1.html > >Selecting cap1.pdf brings up a email request. I'm not >sure if it will lead to anything but you might get a >schematic showing the connector pins. >Dwight > > >>From: "Gooijen, Henk" >> >>Hi all, >>I got an amber 10" monitor that was originally in an Olivetti M21. >>I like the screen size and the color, so I would like to build some >>sort of terminal with it. From the PCB comes a flat cable which >>ends in a DB25 connector. As this is all connections I see, >>I assume that it gets a low voltage power supplied via this cable. >> >>Does anybody have more info on this connector? >> >> thanks, >>- Henk, PA8PDP. >> >> >> >> > > > >This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. >If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. >If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. >Thank you for your cooperation. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 14 00:24:21 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 06:24:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry In-Reply-To: <200602141556.03693.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Feb 14, 6 03:56:03 pm Message-ID: > Well, since around the time we closed up our shop (April of 1992) I've been > having to use a lighted magnifier to be able to see stuff that I was able to > deal with quite nicely before, I'm not up to it. Sucks, but there it is, > and I just deal with it. I didn't necessarily mean that _you_ should do it. There must be other people with that machine (amazingly, I don't own any CP/M luggables yet...) > > You'd also need to remove some of the stuff from the assembly, which is > pretty tight. > > And, shining a strong light through the boards to see where traces go etc. is > complicated by the fact that Zenith used blobs of hot glue to hold the > bulkier components in place, including a lot of the caps, TO220 > transistors, etc. I'd not do it that way. What I'd do is desolder any components that would test as a short-circuit (fuses, low-value resistors, inductors, transformers), and use a continuity tester to check where things go. I've done this many times on monitors and PSUs and never had any problems. Incidentally, if that glue is like the stuff we get in TV sets over here, it goes conductive with age (!). It causes all sorts of interesting faults... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 14 00:30:55 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 06:30:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry In-Reply-To: <200602141623.06607.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Feb 14, 6 04:23:06 pm Message-ID: > > And if anybody is working on any Osborne, Kaypro, or C64 stuff feel free to > give a holler as I did quite a bit of that and have tech info available if I I don;'t suppose you know anything about the Sony CX065B chip, do you? It's a motor speed controller, and I'm doing battle with it (and other components) in the spindle motor of an Epson SD320 drive, used in a TF20. I have the service information on the SD321 drive (same unit without a head load solenoid) in the QX10 techical mnaul, but it doesn't really explain this chip at all. The reason I ask here is that I've discovered the same chip was used in the Alps drive mechanism used in the Commodore 1504 and 1541. I have the offical CBM serivce manual which contains a scheamtic and little else, I also have the Sams book on repairing said units which contains rather more information. I wondered if you had anything else? -tony From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Feb 14 17:30:51 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:30:51 -0500 Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602141830.51736.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 14 February 2006 01:24 am, Tony Duell wrote: > Incidentally, if that glue is like the stuff we get in TV sets over here, > it goes conductive with age (!). It causes all sorts of interesting > faults... I've heard that, that this is the case with whatever the goop is that Japanese mfrs. use for stuff like holding down large capacitors, etc. And that it starts out as a light brown in color, turning very dark as it ages. The stuff I was referring to is off-white (milky-looking) and quite hard when it's set, which makes it interesting to remove components. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 14 17:43:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:43:17 -0800 Subject: Smart Alec II? Message-ID: <200602141543170339.068EA5FA@10.0.0.252> I was cleaning out a cabinet to make some room and found several diskettes for a Dynasty Smart Alec II system. Format is SSDD 5.25 48 tpi, but for the first track which is SSSD--the system is CP/M-80. I can find scant information on the web about this beast--I'm curious if someone can fill me in. Cheers, Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Feb 14 17:48:50 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 17:48:50 -0600 Subject: Online manual repository? In-Reply-To: <43F24AAE.3070803@oldskool.org> References: <43F24AAE.3070803@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43F26C62.40002@brutman.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > I lost yet another bid for the Technical Reference Manual for IBM PC-XT; > is there an online tech ref manual archive somewhere? > > I hate to keep bugging you guys with questions; I'd rather consult tech > docs and *then* ask if I'm stumped. But if these things keep going for > $50, $100, or more on ebay I won't ever get a hold of a copy... The DOS 3.3 Tech Ref just set me back close to $30 .. it was probably the same seller. On the other hand, I don't have to worry about finding it again. Documentation is so golden .. A good part of my collection isn't machines anymore, it's paper. Mike From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Feb 14 17:46:01 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:46:01 -0500 Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602141846.01140.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 14 February 2006 01:30 am, Tony Duell wrote: > > And if anybody is working on any Osborne, Kaypro, or C64 stuff feel free > > to give a holler as I did quite a bit of that and have tech info > > available if I > > I don;'t suppose you know anything about the Sony CX065B chip, do you? That number doesn't ring any bells offhand. A quick search on the number doesn't turn anything up. > It's a motor speed controller, and I'm doing battle with it (and other > components) in the spindle motor of an Epson SD320 drive, used in a TF20. > I have the service information on the SD321 drive (same unit without a > head load solenoid) in the QX10 techical mnaul, but it doesn't really > explain this chip at all. > > The reason I ask here is that I've discovered the same chip was used in > the Alps drive mechanism used in the Commodore 1504 and 1541. I have the > offical CBM serivce manual which contains a scheamtic and little else, I > also have the Sams book on repairing said units which contains rather > more information. I wondered if you had anything else? Not offhand. The only time I ever really encountered any serious speed problems with those motors was when the tach winding opened up, and they'd run at full-speed with no regulation. I do have the manuals for the 1541 in the other room, and can take a look... I have had speed control chips fail on a small number of occasions, but don't recall whether this was one of the numbers or not. Usually if you're getting a good waveform off the tach winding and power to the chip, and no control coming out, that's the problem -- it's been either the motor or the chip in those cases, not much else in there. What sort of a problem are you having? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 14 18:02:08 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 00:02:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Online manual repository? In-Reply-To: <43F26C62.40002@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Feb 14, 6 05:48:50 pm Message-ID: > > Jim Leonard wrote: > > I lost yet another bid for the Technical Reference Manual for IBM PC-XT; > > is there an online tech ref manual archive somewhere? > > > > I hate to keep bugging you guys with questions; I'd rather consult tech > > docs and *then* ask if I'm stumped. But if these things keep going for > > $50, $100, or more on ebay I won't ever get a hold of a copy... Well, I probably paid that sort of figure for the TechRefs 10 years ago. OK, they were brand new, from IBM. And I regard that as money very well spent. Think how long it would tkae to re-create all that information -- to trace out all the schematics and comment the BIOS source. [...] > Documentation is so golden .. A good part of my collection isn't > machines anymore, it's paper. Mine too. I make a point of buying any second-hand computer book that contains non-obvious infromation (I probably won't publish an 'introduction to BASIC' type book if it's generic, but I would buy one for a specific machine if it contained bus pinouts or a schematic, or a detailed memory mape that I didn't already have). I have books on machines I don't own, and probably will never own. The information in them, though, comes in very useful quite often (as I mentioned in another message, a 3rd party book on repairing the Commodore 1541 -- a drive I have little interest in -- had some useful information regarding a chip used in an Epson drive that I am interested in repairing. Thank %deity I bought that book when I saw it). And I mean, there must be somebody who needs a schematic for an interface between Unibus amd an IBM 360 channel, right? (No, I am not offering to get rid of my DX11 printset..) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 14 18:06:43 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 00:06:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry In-Reply-To: <200602141846.01140.rtellason@blazenet.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Feb 14, 6 06:46:01 pm Message-ID: The Epson motor is very different to the Commodore one. Commodore used a permanent magnet DC motor, the Epson drive uses a 4 phase motor with electronic commutation (there are 2 hall sensors under the PCB). It's just the speed controller chip that's the same/ > Not offhand. The only time I ever really encountered any serious speed > problems with those motors was when the tach winding opened up, and they'd That problem I've got. I've taken the motor housing apart, and have tried to repair the coil. Time will tell... > run at full-speed with no regulation. I do have the manuals for the 1541 in > the other room, and can take a look... I have the ofifical Commodore manual, so if that's what you have there's no need for you to look. > > I have had speed control chips fail on a small number of occasions, but don't > recall whether this was one of the numbers or not. Usually if you're > getting a good waveform off the tach winding and power to the chip, and no > control coming out, that's the problem -- it's been either the motor or the Sure... > chip in those cases, not much else in there. See above, the Epson motor is a lot more complicated. There's the chip and 10 discrete transistors on the PCB. For interest I'd like to know exactly what the chip does (I am curious like that...). I'd also like to know just what the 'other' preset on the Epson board is for (not the one that sets the speed), it seems to balance the 2 hall sensors or something like that. > > What sort of a problem are you having? Initially an open FG coil, let's hope I can get that right... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 14 18:15:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 16:15:32 -0800 Subject: SN76488N Message-ID: <200602141615320341.06AC2C81@10.0.0.252> Anyone still looking for one of these? I found one--I had it stashed away with a bunch of PC CMOS clock chips. Drop me a private email if so. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 14 18:18:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 16:18:51 -0800 Subject: Repairing wall warts Message-ID: <200602141618510840.06AF37C9@10.0.0.252> Maybe it's the Scrooge in me, but I've got a couple of wall warts (power supplies) that either have open fuses or dried up caps in them. They're either multi-voltage or have unusual enough ratings (e.g. 18 vdc @ 1500 ma) that I'm reluctant to scrap them. Does anyone have a sure-fire method for getting into the case such that it can be reclosed? I was thinking about using a saw blade on a Dremel to separate the case halves. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Feb 14 18:36:44 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:36:44 -0600 Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: <200602141618510840.06AF37C9@10.0.0.252> References: <200602141618510840.06AF37C9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43F2779C.7050906@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Maybe it's the Scrooge in me, but I've got a couple of wall warts (power > supplies) that either have open fuses or dried up caps in them. They're > either multi-voltage or have unusual enough ratings (e.g. 18 vdc @ 1500 ma) > that I'm reluctant to scrap them. > > Does anyone have a sure-fire method for getting into the case such that it > can be reclosed? I was thinking about using a saw blade on a Dremel to > separate the case halves. If it's a variable-speed Dremel and a real saw, as opposed to a carborundum wheel, that works. Otherwise cutting plastic is just a mess. I like a regular fine-tooth scroll saw better. Doc From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Feb 14 18:43:08 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 16:43:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Repairing wall warts Message-ID: <200602150043.QAA30534@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi I've used a sharp chisel and hammer. No matter how you do it, you'll break some plastic someplace. I have good luck at keeping the main damage inside the cover. The most common failure is the transformer. It will either be burnt up or have an open turn. If it is open, it is usually the wire that runs across the top of the coil and not inside the coil. Of course, it is usually the primary that is open. I find that the turns ratio is usually a nice integer number. In other words, for 120V input, it might have 120 or 240 turns on the primary. Things like that. If the primary is badly burnt, you can use the secondary as a input ( from another AC wall wart ) and a few turns replacing the primary to determine the turns ratio. Also, be warned that the cost of the wire is often more than the value of the wart, unless you have a good source. If you have several scrap warts of the same size, you can often swap coils. Dwight >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >Maybe it's the Scrooge in me, but I've got a couple of wall warts (power >supplies) that either have open fuses or dried up caps in them. They're >either multi-voltage or have unusual enough ratings (e.g. 18 vdc @ 1500 ma) >that I'm reluctant to scrap them. > >Does anyone have a sure-fire method for getting into the case such that it >can be reclosed? I was thinking about using a saw blade on a Dremel to >separate the case halves. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Feb 14 18:50:06 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:50:06 -0600 Subject: Smart Alec II? In-Reply-To: <200602141543170339.068EA5FA@10.0.0.252> References: <200602141543170339.068EA5FA@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43F27ABE.7020504@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I was cleaning out a cabinet to make some room and found several diskettes > for a Dynasty Smart Alec II system. Format is SSDD 5.25 48 tpi, but for > the first track which is SSSD--the system is CP/M-80. > > I can find scant information on the web about this beast--I'm curious if > someone can fill me in. > > Cheers, > Chuck My recollection (not first hand -- just from web browsing) is it is a rebadged exidy sorcerer, or perhaps a clone of it. From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Feb 14 15:36:19 2006 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:36:19 +0000 Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry In-Reply-To: <200602141830.51736.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: Message-ID: <20060215023508.JWMT21861.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > I've heard that, that this is the case with whatever the goop is that > Japanese mfrs. use for stuff like holding down large capacitors, etc. And > that it starts out as a light brown in color, turning very dark as it ages. > > The stuff I was referring to is off-white (milky-looking) and quite hard when > it's set, which makes it interesting to remove components. > > -- Yes it is the stuff. Seems this particular glue found in low quality stuff. Fresh stuff is very TOUGH to cut through and hard to rip apart, baked, crispy-black & conductive. Cheers, WIzard From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Feb 14 21:46:59 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:46:59 -0500 Subject: WTD - 2 C64's and 2 VIC's In-Reply-To: <43F27ABE.7020504@pacbell.net> References: <200602141543170339.068EA5FA@10.0.0.252> <43F27ABE.7020504@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <43F2A433.70005@atarimuseum.com> Hi all... I need a pair of C64's and a pair of VIC 20s that are in good to excellent cosmetic condition, I am not going to duke it out for EBay'ish prices, so I wanted to see if anyone on the list may have a few Commodores to sell at reasonable prices. Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.7/259 - Release Date: 2/13/2006 From ygehrich at yahoo.com Tue Feb 14 21:51:03 2006 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:51:03 -0500 Subject: WTD - 2 C64's and 2 VIC's In-Reply-To: <43F2A433.70005@atarimuseum.com> References: <200602141543170339.068EA5FA@10.0.0.252> <43F27ABE.7020504@pacbell.net> <43F2A433.70005@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20060214225011.0445ec50@yahoo.com> At 10:46 PM 2/14/2006, you wrote: >Hi all... > > I need a pair of C64's and a pair of VIC 20s that are in good to > excellent cosmetic condition, I am not going to duke it out for > EBay'ish prices, so I wanted to see if anyone on the list may have > a few Commodores to sell at reasonable prices. I may have some. Do they need to be tested and working? Do you need anything besides the keyboards. From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Feb 14 21:12:20 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:12:20 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 30, Issue 39 Message-ID: <01C631CC.188FBB40@MSE_D03> >Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 03:55:02 +0000 (GMT) >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >Subject: Re: eBay Item Not Won: Vintage Digital DECWriter IV terminal, DEC, >> Does anyone have DEC lineprinters or other printers w/out keyboards in >> their collections? Pictures? >I've got at least one LA100 (receive-only) in my collection (and I think >a KSR one with a keyboard). >Externally these look like a DECwriter 4, but have redesigned internals, >with a printhead that's shiffted up and down mechancially to give twice >the verical resouliton (the NLQ font is printed in 2 passes, one with the >head in each posuition). >-tony --------------------------- Ah yes, that would be the Letterprinter 100 and the Letterwriter 100 respectively; I have a few of those myself awaiting a trip to the dumpster, as well as some parts & ribbons. Tony, I naturally assume you have the documentation set? That reminds me of a little story: when we converted our clients from Cromemco systems to PCs, we needed to convert the LA100s from Xon/Xoff to hardware handshaking. After several days of asking techs at DEC Canada and their reps and just getting unhelpful "can't be done" or "yeah, I think there's a jumper somewhere (but no one knew where)" replies, I finally called DEC US; when I asked the receptionist (those were the days!) for the tech department, she asked me what it was about. Figuring I was about to waste more time explaining the problem to someone who wasn't going to be any help, I nearly fell off my chair when she replied, "no problem, just run a jumper from pin 11 of IC27 to the pad beside pin such-and-such of IC so-and-so (the actual details are buried in my notes somewhere)". After I confessed and apologized for my sexist expectations and told her that she was probably the only person in North America who knew that, she laughed and admitted that a savvy engineer had happened to be standing beside her and overheard what she'd repeated. BTW, Tony, for someone as meticulous as you about some things, I'm surprised to see so many typos in your messages lately; is this a hardware or mushware problem, or none of my business? mike From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Feb 15 00:14:23 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:14:23 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div", To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Post In-Reply-To: <43F22CE7.7070007@mindspring.com> References: <200602131800.k1DI04X5091506@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43F1243E.209@update.uu.se> <43F1DB16.9090908@compsys.to> <43F22CE7.7070007@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <43F2C6BF.6010202@mindspring.com> Don North wrote: > Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >>> >"Jerome H. Fine" wrote: >>> > I have noticed what may be an interesting result when I use the >>> > PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div". Since I have noticed >>> > at least one individual who worked on the microcode for the >>> > PDP-11, perhaps there is an explicit "Yes / No" answer to my >>> > question: >>> Since this actually have nothing to do with the microcode, and >>> actually is nothing specific with the PDP-11 DIV instruction, just >>> about anyone should be able to answer definitely. >> >> Jerome Fine replies: >> >> I suggest that you might not be aware of the exact implementation >> of the PDP-11 integer "Div" instruction when an overflow occurs. >> > > Please be aware there is no one "PDP-11 microcode". The internals and > microflows of each machine are different, except for the 11/45-55 and > 11/70 which are very closely related implementations (same basic core > CPU). Some of the VLSI CPUs also tend to behave the same as they are > based on the same core CPU (F11, J11, etc). > > How the DIV instruction behaves in boundary conditions (ie, when the > true quotient can not be represented in 16b) can, but may not, be CPU > specific. Some CPUs may generate the correct 16 LSB of the 32b > quotient. Others may not. The PDP-11 programmers guide for various > CPUs indicates that the only affect one can count on is that the 'V' > bit is set. > > In practice, given the standard shift/subtract algorithms for binary > division, it is probably the case that the 16b quotient is a true > subset of the 32b quotient. However, there is no easy way to prove > this without examining the microcode on each machine, or writing a > test program and running it on each machine. > > SIMH implements PDP-11 DIV as: > > case 1: /* DIV */ > if (!CPUO (OPT_EIS)) { > setTRAP (TRAP_ILL); > break; > } > src2 = dstreg? R[dstspec]: ReadW (GeteaW (dstspec)); > src = (((uint32) R[srcspec]) << 16) | R[srcspec | 1]; > if (src2 == 0) { > N = 0; /* J11,11/70 > compat */ > Z = V = C = 1; /* N = 0, Z = 1 */ > break; > } > if ((src == 020000000000) && (src2 == 0177777)) { > V = 1; /* J11,11/70 > compat */ > N = Z = C = 0; /* N = Z = 0 */ > break; > } > if (GET_SIGN_W (src2)) src2 = src2 | ~077777; > if (GET_SIGN_W (R[srcspec])) src = src | ~017777777777; > --> dst = src / src2; > N = (dst < 0); /* N set on 32b > result */ > if ((dst > 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) { > V = 1; /* J11,11/70 > compat */ > Z = C = 0; /* Z = C = 0 */ > ====>> break; > } > --> R[srcspec] = dst & 0177777; > --> R[srcspec | 1] = (src - (src2 * dst)) & 0177777; > Z = GET_Z (dst); > V = C = 0; > break; > > which would appear that the 16b quotient returned is the 16 LSB of the > correct 32b quotient. Actually I read the C code wrong. If overflow is detected, the 'break;' jumps out of the code and no registers are modified. So SIMH does NOT modify any registers if the V-bit has been set. I checked the 11/34 MAINDEC EIS diagnostic. For the DIV tests, the result registers are NOT checked if the Vbit is set. The diagnostic does not verify that the registers are unchanged; it assumes the registers are UNDEFINED if V is set. I ran some simple DIV tests on a real 11/44: >>>s 1000 (Program) DIV Test of 'div r2,r0' ..R0.. ..R1.. ..R2.. ....NUM... ..DEN.. => ..R0.. ..R1.. ..R2.. NZVC ..QUO.. ..REM.. 000003 000004 000003 196612. 3. => 000003 000004 000003 0010 3. 4. 000000 000000 000000 0. 0. => 000000 000000 000000 0011 0. 0. <-- Zbit clear 000001 000001 000000 65537. 0. => 000001 000001 000000 0011 1. 1. <-- Zbit clear 000000 001000 000010 512. 8. => 000100 000000 000010 0000 64. 0. 000000 001234 000021 668. 17. => 000047 000005 000021 0000 39. 5. 000010 001234 005432 524956. 2842. => 000270 003754 005432 0000 184. 2028. 012345 012345 054321 350557413. 22737. => 036071 051134 054321 0000 15417. 21084. 012345 012345 000005 350557413. 5. => 012345 012345 000005 0010 5349. 5349. 000000 040000 000002 16384. 2. => 020000 000000 000002 0000 8192. 0. 000000 100000 000002 32768. 2. => 040000 000000 000002 0000 16384. 0. 000001 000000 000002 65536. 2. => 100000 000000 000002 0010 -32768. 0. <-- R0 changed, Vbit set 000002 000000 000002 131072. 2. => 000002 000000 000002 0010 2. 0. Goodbye (Console) Halted at 165146 and an 11/44 under the latest SIMH: local[625] pdp11 divtest.ini PDP-11 simulator V3.5-0 DIV Test of 'div r2,r0' ..R0.. ..R1.. ..R2.. ....NUM... ..DEN.. => ..R0.. ..R1.. ..R2.. NZVC ..QUO.. ..REM.. 000003 000004 000003 196612. 3. => 000003 000004 000003 0010 3. 4. 000000 000000 000000 0. 0. => 000000 000000 000000 0111 0. 0. <-- Zbit set 000001 000001 000000 65537. 0. => 000001 000001 000000 0111 1. 1. <-- Zbit set 000000 001000 000010 512. 8. => 000100 000000 000010 0000 64. 0. 000000 001234 000021 668. 17. => 000047 000005 000021 0000 39. 5. 000010 001234 005432 524956. 2842. => 000270 003754 005432 0000 184. 2028. 012345 012345 054321 350557413. 22737. => 036071 051134 054321 0000 15417. 21084. 012345 012345 000005 350557413. 5. => 012345 012345 000005 0010 5349. 5349. 000000 040000 000002 16384. 2. => 020000 000000 000002 0000 8192. 0. 000000 100000 000002 32768. 2. => 040000 000000 000002 0000 16384. 0. 000001 000000 000002 65536. 2. => 000001 000000 000002 0010 1. 0. <-- R0 unchanged, Vbit set 000002 000000 000002 131072. 2. => 000002 000000 000002 0010 2. 0. Goodbye HALT instruction, PC: 000010 (000012) Goodbye local[626] the interesting case is the (65536. / 2.) computation where the real 11/44 generates the correct unsigned quotient in R0, but also sets the Vbit. In most cases however it appears that if DIV overflows the quo and rem registers are unaltered and the Vbit is set. SIMH and a real 11/44 (mostly) behave this way. The behavior below found by Jerome may be an anomaly seen in E11. > >> Please see below! >> >>> > If I divide 196612 by 3 - i.e. "Div (R2),R0" where R0 = 3, R1 = 4, >>> (R2) = 3 >>> > the result (in addition to the condition bits) is R0 = 1, R1 = 1 >>> which is >>> > exactly correct if the quotient is regarded as a 32 bit result >>> with R0 being >>> > the low order 16 bits of that result and the high order 32 bits are >>> somewhere >>> > else - probably inaccessible as far as programming is concerned, >>> but easily >>> > obtained by: >>> > Mov R1-(SP) ; Save low order 16 bits of dividend >>> > Mov R0,R1 ; Divide high order 16 bits >>> > Clr R0 ; of dividend >>> > Div (R2),R0 ; by the divisor >>> > Mov R0,R3 ; Save high order 16 bits of quotient >>> > Mov R1,R0 ; Divide the remainder >>> > Mov (SP)+,R1 ; of the dividend >>> > Div (R2),R0 ; by the divisor >>> > i.e. R3 now contains the high order 16 bits of the 32 bit quotient >>> > with R0 holding the low order 16 bits of the 32 bit quotient >>> What you have implemented here, as well as described, is the exact >>> way you should have been taught how to do division on paper in >>> elementary school. >>> Yes, that algorithm is valid, and can be extended to arbitrary >>> sizes, as long as you remember the full method. >> >> I agree that the above code is the "correct" method to ensure >> a valid result. BUT, that is NOT what I am attempting to determine. >> >> Specifically, I have found that the following code also works: >> Mov R0,R3 >> Div (R2),R0 ; First Divide Instruction >> Tst R1 >> Bne Somewhere - since the quotient is not of interest when a >> non-zero remainder >> Mov R0,-(SP) >> Mov R3,R1 >> Clr R0 >> Div (R2),R0 ; Second Divide Instruction >> Mov (SP)+,R1 >> At this point, R0 / R1 now contains 32 bit quotient IF the first >> "Div" instruction places the low order 16 bits of the 32 bit >> quotient into R0. I have found this result in practice and since >> there is a VERY HIGH probability that the remainder is NOT >> zero, the above code is MUCH faster. >> >> Again, the specific question is IF the quotient of the "Div" instruction >> is the low order 16 bits of a 32 bit quotient all of the time or just >> when the high order 16 bits are all zero???????? >> >>> > Can anyone confirm what I have found in practice? >>> Certainly. It's basic math, the way it's taught in elementary school. >>> That was atleast the first way I was taught how do do divides on big >>> numbers on paper. >> >> I learned that also, but the observation is not relevant >> to my question. >> >> I realize that the DEC manual description of the "Div" instruction >> does not address the situation when the quotient exceeds 65535 >> (decimal) or 16 bits, but again, perhaps someone who knows >> the microcode might have an answer. >> >>> > Even better would be a method of retrieving the high >>> > order 16 bits of the quotient in a manner which takes >>> > fewer instructions and without a second divide instruction! >>> >>> I doubt you'll find it. >> >> I AGREE!! It would have been "nice" though if >> DEC knew where the value was and made that high >> order 16 bits available via the next instruction >> if the user needed it. That information would >> also have exactly defined whether or not the low >> order 16 bits of the quotient and the remainder >> were correct all of the time. Any comments on these >> TWO observations? >> >> I realize that the instruction set is long past being >> subject to change in DEC hardware, but that does not >> mean that an emulator could not manage to make a few >> small but vital improvements. And certainly, at least >> in SIMH, it is possible to examine the code to determine >> the answer to my original question. Does anyone have >> the code for the "Div" emulation in SIMH and what does >> happen when the high order 16 bits of the quotient are >> non-zero? >> >> Sincerely yours, >> >> Jerome Fine >> -- >> If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail >> address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk >> e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be >> obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the >> 'at' with the four digits of the current year. >> >> > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 15 00:38:20 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:38:20 -0800 Subject: SN76488N References: <200602141615320341.06AC2C81@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200602142238200727.080AA0DA@10.0.0.252> My mail server's been acting up today and some of my posts seem to have disappeared into the aether. Please forgive me if this is a double post. Anyone still looking for one of these? I found one--I had it stashed away with a bunch of PC CMOS clock chips. Drop me a private email if so. Cheers, Chuck From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Feb 15 00:53:11 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 22:53:11 -0800 Subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel (was: Re: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF269A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF269A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <43F2CFD7.70209@mindspring.com> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Without thinking much about it, I'd say that mounting any > real blinkenlight console on a 11/44 is *not* trivial! > Of course, grabbing UNIBUS address- and data-lines and wiring > that to the lights is trivial, but to get all panel functions > (LOAD ADDR, DEP, EXAM, etc). working on an 11/44 is more work. > > I guess there are more people on the list who have a boring > PDP-11/44 with a dull panel, that would like to make the /44 > more sexy with an 'appropriate' panel. The "upgrade" is, > of course, done in such a way that it can be undone ... > I (we) do not have a /74 panel :-( , but I'd like to hear > what approach you are thinking of, Don. > Well, what I thought about was a simple little dual-width UNIBUS card (MUD slot and 11/44 extended MUD compatible for the extra phys address lines) that would read-only buffer the UNIBUS address/data/control lines and send them to the display board (either parallel or multiplexed, undecided). The display board would be run by a PIC micro (I have lots of experience with these) that would intercept the 11/44 console serial port lines and would generate all the appropriate exam/dep/etc commands to mimic the switch commands. The PIC would also run all the display lites, selecting either real-time UNIBUS A/D display, or the manual results obtained from running commands. I would use my 11/74 panel for the display bezel (no destructive changes of course) just to provide some extra atmosphere. There is no ETA on this right now, got other things to do first... > Hmm, you could do it like I did as add-on to SIMH. Hardware > with some intelligence reads the front panel and translates the > switches to messages in ODT syntax which are send to the 11/44 > monitor program ... > > - Henk, PA8PDP. > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don North >> Sent: vrijdag 10 februari 2006 21:07 >> To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Original 11/74 front panel >> >> Actually I was thinking of making a replacement/alternate >> front panel for my 11/44 using the 11/74 panel. >> Add real blinking lights/switches connected up to the real >> UNIBUS/memorybus. >> >> The 11/44 panel is *way* too spartan looking, and the 11/74 >> panel would fit just perfectly on the front of the box. >> > > From Glen.Heiberg at gijima.com Wed Feb 15 00:54:03 2006 From: Glen.Heiberg at gijima.com (Glen Heiberg) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 08:54:03 +0200 Subject: Data General MV/1400 info Message-ID: <831434B713AA43429AF3F3EE801F38B202E85F@rst-exc06.za.astgroup.com> Saw a Data General MV/1400 machine at a client site yesterday acting as a coffee stand! It's about the size of a 6U rack server standing on its side, mounted on a 'foot'. Apart from an ON/OFF button and the name badge, the front has a QIC-type tape drive, and next to it a blanking plate that appears to be able to house either another QIC drive or a floppy drive. Nothing else interesting. Unfortunately I wasn't able to peek at the back. Google didn't yield much on this machine. Anybody know more details? Glen. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 15 01:08:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 23:08:03 -0800 Subject: Smart Alec II? References: <200602141543170339.068EA5FA@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200602142308030569.0825D4BB@10.0.0.252> I was cleaning out a cabinet to make some room and found several diskettes for a Dynasty Smart Alec II system. Format is SSDD 5.25 48 tpi, but for the first track which is SSSD--the system is CP/M-80. I can find scant information on the web about this beast--I'm curious if someone can fill me in. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 15 01:07:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 23:07:55 -0800 Subject: Repairing wall warts References: <200602141618510840.06AF37C9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200602142307550587.0825B58E@10.0.0.252> Maybe it's the Scrooge in me, but I've got a couple of wall warts (power supplies) that either have open fuses or dried up caps in them. They're either multi-voltage or have unusual enough ratings (e.g. 18 vdc @ 1500 ma) that I'm reluctant to scrap them. Does anyone have a sure-fire method for getting into the case such that it can be reclosed? I was thinking about using a saw blade on a Dremel to separate the case halves. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 13 18:47:21 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:47:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: extra rom sockets was Re: BIOS upgrade cards In-Reply-To: <20060213144704.N74307@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20060214004721.49641.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > ...there was room for 48K of ROMs, with > 40K being used (IBM 5150) therefore anything you plug into those extra rom sockets would allow you to access them and create a "hex dump" if that's the right term, and save it to disk. ISTR Intel having some sort of hex format for rom images. I'm not saying the code (rom) you plug into the board has to be useful (or useable). Just that you could read it? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 13 19:10:01 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 17:10:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sirius 1 (aka Victor 9000) on Ebay (UK) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060214011001.33675.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > Chuckie also chose a non-conformist Hitachi crt > > I thought it was just amother 6845-a-like. Pretty sure it was a Hitachi something or other. At least according to the BYTE review *not in front of me*. Whether or not that amounted to a 6845 clone...dunno. The TI PC used a 6545. I think there may even have been a discussion about it recently. Is that essentially a 6845 clone? I think I even have the app note for it somewhere... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Tue Feb 14 14:13:09 2006 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:13:09 +0100 (CET) Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry In-Reply-To: <200602141435.09764.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <1F96Xu-0W163s0@fwd31.sul.t-online.de> On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 14:35:09 -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >On Monday 13 February 2006 02:34 pm, David Griffith wrote: >> I'm trying to restore an Osborne Executive, but there seems to be >> something wrong in the CRT circuitry. The machine powers up and beeps, >> >If the monitor itself is the problem, I remember reading in some issues of >"FOGHORN" years back that there were certain capacitors in the monitor >assembly that would cause problems, though I don't remember which ones they >were. > >The monitor itself was apparently made by Zenith, but I have not yet been >able to locate a schematic for that portion of things, though I have >complete tech info on the rest of the computer. If anybody knows where I >might find a schematic of the monitor as well I'd sure like to hear about it. this should be the right one if the sold exceutive in germany ist identical.-) For the foghorn I must have to search. http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/osborne/executiv/manua l/sheets/osbe_video.png Here ist other http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/osborne/executiv/ Mit freundlichen Gruessen Fritz Chwolka From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Tue Feb 14 14:28:44 2006 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 21:28:44 +0100 (CET) Subject: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry Message-ID: <1F96mz-1p4ftQ0@fwd27.sul.t-online.de> I don't know if my first mail was send correctly. Someone needs an sheet for osborne executive video this should be the right one if the sold exceutive in germany ist identical.-) For the foghorn I must have to search. http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/osborne/executiv/manua l/sheets/osbe_video.png Mit freundlichen Gruessen Fritz Chwolka From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 14 19:23:48 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 17:23:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM System 23/Datamaster for p.u. only (St.Charles, MO) Message-ID: <20060215012348.73039.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> on ebay. search it and check it out. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jeff at selectcomputer.net Tue Feb 14 18:04:33 2006 From: jeff at selectcomputer.net (Jeff Silverman) Date: 15 Feb 2006 00:04:33 -0000 Subject: We Moved, please update your records with our new address, phones numbers stay the same! Message-ID: <1139961873.29772.322083.sendUpdate@mx.plaxo.com> cctech at classiccmp.org, I'm updating my address book. Please take a moment to update me with your latest contact info. Click the following link to correct or confirm your information: https://www.plaxo.com/edit_contact_info?r=4295311943-82525385--637936337 Name: cctech at classiccmp.org Job Title: Company: Work E-mail: cctech at classiccmp.org Work Phone: Work Fax: Work Address Line 1: Work Address Line 2: Work City, State, Zip: Mobile Phone: Home E-mail: Home Phone: Home Fax: Home Address Line 1: Home Address Line 2: Home City, State, Zip: Birthday: P.S. I've included my Plaxo card below so that you have my current information. I've also attached a copy as a vCard. +----------------- | Jeff Silverman | jeff at selectcomputer.net | CEO | | Select Computer Technology Inc. | 1605D Mabury Rd. | San Jose, Ca 95133 | work: 408-944-9475 | fax: 408-944-9476 | mobile: 408-390-3760 | im: jsilve1260 | web: www.selectcomputer.net +------------------------------------- ____________________________________________________________ This message was sent to you by jeff at selectcomputer.net via Plaxo. To opt out: https://www.plaxo.com/opt_out?r=4295311943-82525385--637936337 Plaxo's Privacy Policy: http://www.plaxo.com/support/privacy From luisa at marvineng.com Mon Feb 13 13:45:54 2006 From: luisa at marvineng.com (Luis Algutria) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:45:54 -0800 Subject: Fluke DOS&In-Reply-To= Message-ID: I have the operating system and manuals for 1722 fluke. The version is 2.2 From ruthanne.fecteau at sympatico.ca Mon Feb 13 10:08:20 2006 From: ruthanne.fecteau at sympatico.ca (Ruthanne Fecteau) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:08:20 -0500 Subject: Fw: Spectrum Holobyte's "BreakThru!" Message-ID: <000001c630b7$bcef5df0$6401a8c0@yourae066c3a9b> I HAD AN OLD VERSION OF BREAKTHRU BUT THE COMPUTER DIED AND I WANT TO KNOW HOW TO GET ANOTHER ONE From Useddec at aol.com Wed Feb 15 01:40:22 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:40:22 EST Subject: DEC stuff for sale Message-ID: <2a5.58c6065.312434e6@aol.com> Hi Adam, I'm still having e-mail problems. Can you throw all of this on a skid if I have a truck pick it up? Thanks, Paul From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Feb 14 12:23:36 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 13:23:36 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <200602141255.34302.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <001301c6318c$16240680$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <001301c6318c$16240680$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060214131716.05157580@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Patrick Finnegan may have mentioned these words: >On Tuesday 14 February 2006 12:28, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' >wrote: > > Sure, that couldn't hurt any more, right? :) > > > > Seriously, if you think you can talk sense into 'em, then by all > > means, I would appreciate it. > >Since he appears to be leeching images from your site, why don't you >have some fun with him... either move your images, and replace the >one's he's pointing to with something else (be creative), Neat idea as long as not too many people have it bookmarked and would go "straight there" and see the "creative adjustments" > or have it >give different images if the Referrer for the request is his site. That would be kewl, but I would have no idea how to set that up, and I know my way around a webserver fairly well. Not a task for the "technologically lighthearted." ;-) FAQs for that anywhere? ;-) =-=-=-=-= My idea: It seems that the guy likes to log in and change others' postings as well. Why don't we all register a login & start letting him know how we feel? I did it - my username on his forums is pffft. ;-) Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From Glen.Heiberg at gijima.com Wed Feb 15 02:13:22 2006 From: Glen.Heiberg at gijima.com (Glen Heiberg) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:13:22 +0200 Subject: Replace 3.5" drives in HP9122D/HP9133H Message-ID: <831434B713AA43429AF3F3EE801F38B202E867@rst-exc06.za.astgroup.com> I am wondering whether it is possible to replace the ailing Sony 3.5" disc drives in both my HP9122D and HP9133H HP-IB units with PC 3.5" drives? These are the older Sony 3/4 height units with separate data & power connectors, model OA-D32W-10 (double sided). The data connector has 26 pins. The power connector is standard 4 pin. I located the pin-outs for these drives on a Japanese site, and found that I could match all but 3 signals to a 'standard' 3.5" disc drive: SONY OA-D32W-10 STANDARD 1 Motor On -----> 10 /MOTEA - 0=Motor Enable Drive 0 2 Drive Select 0 -----> 14 /DRVSB - Drive Select 0 3 Disk Change -----> 34 /DSKCHG - 1=Disk Change/0=Ready 4 Drive Select 1 -----> 12 /DRVSB - Drive Select 1 5 Disk Change Reset -----> ???? 6 Direction Select -----> 18 /DIR - 0=Direction Select 7 GND -----> GND 8 Step -----> 20 /Step - 0=Head Step 9 GND -----> GND 10 Write Data -----> 22 /WDATE - Write Data 11 GND -----> GND 12 Write Gate -----> 24 /WGATE - Floppy Write Enable, 0=Write Gate 13 GND -----> GND 14 Head Read -----> ???? 15 GND -----> GND 16 Head Select -----> 32 /SIDE1 - 0=Head Select 17 GND -----> GND 18 Index -----> 8 /Index - 0=Index 19 GND -----> GND 20 Track 00 -----> 26 /TRK00 - 0=Track 00 21 GND -----> GND 22 Write Protected -----> 28 /WPT - 0=Write Protect 23 GND -----> GND 24 Read Data -----> 30 /RDATA - Read Data 25 GND -----> GND 26 Ready -----> ???? Is such a retro-fitting exercise possible? One possible problem could be the rotational speed; I know the Sony drives spun at 600rpm as opposed to the PC standard 300rpm... Any comments and/or suggestions about the feasibility, as well as matching the signals of pins 5, 14, and 26? Cheers Glen. From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Feb 15 04:53:00 2006 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 02:53:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060214131716.05157580@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Feb 2006, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > or have it > >give different images if the Referrer for the request is his site. > > That would be kewl, but I would have no idea how to set that up, and I know > my way around a webserver fairly well. Not a task for the "technologically > lighthearted." ;-) FAQs for that anywhere? ;-) I recently did this myself after somebody stole some images I was using for an eBay listing. You just need a simple rewrite rule. If you're running apache, you can put something like the following in an .htaccess file: RewriteEngine on rewriteCond %{HTTP_referer} ^http://ripoff.com/pattern rewriteRule \.*$ http://foo.bar/newimage.jpg -- Doug From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Feb 15 07:30:17 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 08:30:17 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43F32CE9.3000404@atarimuseum.com> Its bad enough when people steal photo's from a site, its far worse when they just link into your site and you get the pay the bandwidth costs so someone can make some money, its not so bad when its one or two auctions here or there... I had a huge spike in bandwidth usage one time and started to investigate, I had found nearly 4 dozen Atari related auctions running on ebay at any given time using stolen images directly linking from my server, so I cut off access to the ebay and subset domains from accessing my site. People on the net have gotten so used to the "its free, its free!" mentality of the Internet, they forget that somebody has to be paying these hosting and bandwidth bills someplace. Curt Doug Salot wrote: > On Tue, 14 Feb 2006, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > >>> or have it >>> give different images if the Referrer for the request is his site. >>> >> That would be kewl, but I would have no idea how to set that up, and I know >> my way around a webserver fairly well. Not a task for the "technologically >> lighthearted." ;-) FAQs for that anywhere? ;-) >> > > I recently did this myself after somebody stole some images I was using > for an eBay listing. > > You just need a simple rewrite rule. If you're running apache, you can > put something like the following in an .htaccess file: > > RewriteEngine on > rewriteCond %{HTTP_referer} ^http://ripoff.com/pattern > rewriteRule \.*$ http://foo.bar/newimage.jpg > > -- Doug > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.9/261 - Release Date: 2/15/2006 From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Feb 15 07:36:28 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 08:36:28 -0500 Subject: Anyone with an ATW800 (Transputer workstation)? Message-ID: <20060215133642.DRXZ15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Does anyone on the list have an Atari ATW800 "Transputer Workstation"? Just acquired one - am bringing it up, and have a few questions... Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From RMeenaks at olf.com Wed Feb 15 08:32:59 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:32:59 -0500 Subject: Anyone with an ATW800 (Transputer workstation)? Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701271AA6@cpexchange.olf.com> Curt has one. The software is on my website at http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer.... Cheers, Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 8:36 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Anyone with an ATW800 (Transputer workstation)? > > > Does anyone on the list have an Atari ATW800 "Transputer Workstation"? > > Just acquired one - am bringing it up, and have a few questions... > > Dave > > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Feb 15 09:18:17 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:18:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fw: Spectrum Holobyte's "BreakThru!" In-Reply-To: <000001c630b7$bcef5df0$6401a8c0@yourae066c3a9b> Message-ID: <20060215151817.6848B5817D@mail.wordstock.com> > > I HAD AN OLD VERSION OF BREAKTHRU BUT THE COMPUTER DIED AND I WANT TO KNOW > HOW TO GET ANOTHER ONE > http://www.the-underdogs.org/game.php?id=148 has some info about this game... Cheers, Bryan From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Feb 15 09:51:35 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (dave04a at dunfield.com) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:51:35 -0500 Subject: Anyone with an ATW800 (Transputer workstation)? In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701271AA6@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <200602151558.k1FFwADX030406@mail2.magma.ca> > Curt has one. The software is on my website at > http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer.... Thanks (Already found your website :-) Actually, I received software with the unit, and it appears to have an installation already on the hard drive. I first powered the unit with the hard drive disconnected. This got me to the GEM desktop of the integrated Mega-ST. Booting the ATW800 Boot Disk resulted in an expected message that there is no SCSI drive. Connecting the SCSI drive, the unit did not appear to boot on it's own, however booting the ATW800 boot disk results in access to the hard drive, followed by startup message for the Helios server, and ends with the message "Booted..." After that, no more data comes from the Atari monitor connected to the Mega. However entering "trash" on the keyboard and pressing ENTER results in hard drive activity, so I assume the system is actually running, and outputting to the Blossum video display (?) I currently do not have an RGB monitor suitable for connection to the Blossum card - is there any way to direct the Helios console to the Atari Monitor. I have the Helios documents from your site (many thanks), but I have not found information specific to the ATW800, and how to get it up and running ...any pointers you can give me would be most helpful. Regards, Dave BTW: I have already posted IMD images of the disks that I received with it to my site. This includes the ATW800 boot disk, Helios dsiks, Something called "Mira shading", several disks marked "Xdemos", and several more marked "Public Domain". -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. From RMeenaks at olf.com Wed Feb 15 10:18:36 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:18:36 -0500 Subject: Anyone with an ATW800 (Transputer workstation)? Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701271ABE@cpexchange.olf.com> There was once a website called "The Totally Unofficial ATW800 Page" that was maintained by Chris Gray. Unforunately, it died like the dinosaur years ago when the host provider decided accidently to end his web account. I archived it locally on my website with the Chris' permission (thank god for the wayback machine). It is basically verbatim from the original site. You can find it here: http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/rtu_atw800.htm http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/gs_atw800.htm If you go the ATW800 specs, there are a lot of links to other users who have the ATW800: http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/atw800.htm These guys are more than happy to help fellow ATW800 users (especially Jean-Marie). Also, there are much more documentation on ATW800 on the previous link that is not contained in the Helios link... I wish I could help you further, but I don't have one :-( Cheers, Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > dave04a at dunfield.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 10:52 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Anyone with an ATW800 (Transputer workstation)? > > > > Curt has one. The software is on my website at > > http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer.... > > Thanks (Already found your website :-) > > Actually, I received software with the unit, and it appears > to have an installation already on the hard drive. > > I first powered the unit with the hard drive disconnected. > This got me to the GEM desktop of the integrated Mega-ST. > Booting the ATW800 Boot Disk resulted in an expected message > that there is no SCSI drive. > > Connecting the SCSI drive, the unit did not appear to boot > on it's own, however booting the ATW800 boot disk results > in access to the hard drive, followed by startup message > for the Helios server, and ends with the message > "Booted..." > > After that, no more data comes from the Atari monitor > connected to the Mega. However entering "trash" on > the keyboard and pressing ENTER results in hard drive > activity, so I assume the system is actually running, > and outputting to the Blossum video display (?) > > I currently do not have an RGB monitor suitable for > connection to the Blossum card - is there any way to > direct the Helios console to the Atari Monitor. > > I have the Helios documents from your site (many thanks), > but I have not found information specific to the ATW800, > and how to get it up and running ...any pointers you can > give me would be most helpful. > > Regards, > Dave > > BTW: I have already posted IMD images of the disks that I > received with it to my site. This includes the ATW800 boot > disk, Helios dsiks, Something called "Mira shading", several > disks marked "Xdemos", and several more marked "Public Domain". > > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. From RMeenaks at olf.com Wed Feb 15 10:33:51 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:33:51 -0500 Subject: Anyone with an ATW800 (Transputer workstation)? Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701271AC5@cpexchange.olf.com> Forgot to mention that this is basically a problem with the host.con file. If you go to the links I provided, it will tell you how to change it to work off of the regular monitor. I suspect it is configured to run X instead. You can use a regular RGB to VGA adapter which is what most people do. Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > dave04a at dunfield.com > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 10:52 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Anyone with an ATW800 (Transputer workstation)? > > > > Curt has one. The software is on my website at > > http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer.... > > Thanks (Already found your website :-) > > Actually, I received software with the unit, and it appears > to have an installation already on the hard drive. > > I first powered the unit with the hard drive disconnected. > This got me to the GEM desktop of the integrated Mega-ST. > Booting the ATW800 Boot Disk resulted in an expected message > that there is no SCSI drive. > > Connecting the SCSI drive, the unit did not appear to boot > on it's own, however booting the ATW800 boot disk results > in access to the hard drive, followed by startup message > for the Helios server, and ends with the message > "Booted..." > > After that, no more data comes from the Atari monitor > connected to the Mega. However entering "trash" on > the keyboard and pressing ENTER results in hard drive > activity, so I assume the system is actually running, > and outputting to the Blossum video display (?) > > I currently do not have an RGB monitor suitable for > connection to the Blossum card - is there any way to > direct the Helios console to the Atari Monitor. > > I have the Helios documents from your site (many thanks), > but I have not found information specific to the ATW800, > and how to get it up and running ...any pointers you can > give me would be most helpful. > > Regards, > Dave > > BTW: I have already posted IMD images of the disks that I > received with it to my site. This includes the ATW800 boot > disk, Helios dsiks, Something called "Mira shading", several > disks marked "Xdemos", and several more marked "Public Domain". > > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Feb 15 10:42:49 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:42:49 -0500 Subject: OT - Anyone work with Disk on a Chips? In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701271ABE@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701271ABE@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <43F35A09.6020405@atarimuseum.com> Need some help with an IMG file, I was wondering if anyone else has worked with the M-Systems DoC's ??? I'm trying to create an embedded HD off of my Atari 800 OS card.... Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.9/261 - Release Date: 2/15/2006 From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Feb 15 12:16:42 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:16:42 -0800 Subject: Online manual repository? In-Reply-To: References: <43F26C62.40002@brutman.com> Message-ID: Jim Leonard wrote: > I lost yet another bid for the Technical Reference Manual for IBM PC-XT; > is there an online tech ref manual archive somewhere? > > I hate to keep bugging you guys with questions; I'd rather consult tech > docs and *then* ask if I'm stumped. But if these things keep going for > $50, $100, or more on ebay I won't ever get a hold of a copy... Damn, I think I saw one in a box at Mike Quinn on Friday. Could have just been the binder, though. It seems that empty binders for the Tech Ref are far more common than full ones. Eric From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 15 12:16:57 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 10:16:57 -0800 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists Message-ID: <43F37019.9FA37C72@rain.org> One of the best ways I've heard of to "encourage" people not to directly link is to: 1) change the image name for your site 2) change the linked image to a porno type photo. That tends to get auctions shut down fairly quickly :). > here or there... I had a huge spike in bandwidth usage one time and > started to investigate, I had found nearly 4 dozen Atari related > auctions running on ebay at any given time using stolen images directly > linking from my server, so I cut off access to the ebay and subset > Curt From vp at cs.drexel.edu Wed Feb 15 12:41:11 2006 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 13:41:11 -0500 Subject: Replace 3.5" drives in HP9122D/HP9133H Message-ID: <20060215184111.186FF2013088@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Unfortunately this not possible as the RPM of the drives is different. Ironically, when I was looking for drives for my HP-85 I selected the 9122 because I thought I would have spares for the floppy drives. This turned out not to be the case (plus I had to find the super rate EMS ROM which meant that the 9122 sat on a shelf for about a year). **vp From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Feb 15 13:00:53 2006 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 14:00:53 -0500 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: <43E7D828.2080104@mcdermith.net> References: <3.0.6.16.20060206151522.32cf049a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200602151901.k1FJ0t08004004@mail.bcpl.net> On 6 Feb 2006 at 16:13, Bill McDermith wrote: > At least internally there was a basic interpreter for the 2648A (the > graphics terminal, right?) that ran from the tape drive. Don't know if > it was sold as a product... HP sold a 2647A terminal (I have one) with dual DC-100 drives that came with a BASIC interpreter on mini-cartridge. The tape label says: Hewlett-Packard Multiplot/BASIC Interpreter 02647-13301 Rev. F 2114-42 -- Dave From news at computercollector.com Wed Feb 15 13:34:52 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 14:34:52 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <43F32CE9.3000404@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <001901c63266$e47650d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Feedback's been great -- thanks again everyone. It's not the images I care too much about, it's the (ahem) 10,000 words of text which is STILL posted over there: http://www.britishinformation.com/chat/printthread.php?t=1931 The poster thinks I'm ungrateful. I say he's a lowly thief. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curt @ Atari Museum Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 8:30 AM To: General at smtp1.suscom.net; Discussion at smtp1.suscom.net :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists Its bad enough when people steal photo's from a site, its far worse when they just link into your site and you get the pay the bandwidth costs so someone can make some money, its not so bad when its one or two auctions here or there... I had a huge spike in bandwidth usage one time and started to investigate, I had found nearly 4 dozen Atari related auctions running on ebay at any given time using stolen images directly linking from my server, so I cut off access to the ebay and subset domains from accessing my site. People on the net have gotten so used to the "its free, its free!" mentality of the Internet, they forget that somebody has to be paying these hosting and bandwidth bills someplace. Curt Doug Salot wrote: > On Tue, 14 Feb 2006, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > >>> or have it >>> give different images if the Referrer for the request is his site. >>> >> That would be kewl, but I would have no idea how to set that up, and >> I know my way around a webserver fairly well. Not a task for the >> "technologically lighthearted." ;-) FAQs for that anywhere? ;-) >> > > I recently did this myself after somebody stole some images I was > using for an eBay listing. > > You just need a simple rewrite rule. If you're running apache, you > can put something like the following in an .htaccess file: > > RewriteEngine on > rewriteCond %{HTTP_referer} ^http://ripoff.com/pattern rewriteRule > \.*$ http://foo.bar/newimage.jpg > > -- Doug > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.9/261 - Release Date: 2/15/2006 From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 15 13:57:42 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 12:57:42 -0700 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 15 Feb 2006 14:00:53 -0500. <200602151901.k1FJ0t08004004@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: Based on posts here and information at hpmuseum.net, it seems that the 2647A and 2649A had a programmable aspect to the equipment, while the other 264x terminals did not. hpmuseum.net describes the following models in this line: 2640A introduced 1975, base terminal 2644A introduced 1975, added two mini cartridge tape drives 2645A introduced 1976, replaced the 2644A, "most common" 2648A introduced 1977, added graphics capability 2649A introduced 1977, programmable w/out tape drives 2647A introduced 1978, BASIC programmable w/tape drives & graphics -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Feb 15 14:40:34 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 14:40:34 -0600 Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: <200602142307550587.0825B58E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: I've used rubber mallets with much success opening those up. It's a crapshoot though. Seems to work on Atari power supplies at least. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 1:08 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Repairing wall warts > > Maybe it's the Scrooge in me, but I've got a couple of wall > warts (power > supplies) that either have open fuses or dried up caps in > them. They're either multi-voltage or have unusual enough > ratings (e.g. 18 vdc @ 1500 ma) that I'm reluctant to scrap them. > > Does anyone have a sure-fire method for getting into the case > such that it can be reclosed? I was thinking about using a > saw blade on a Dremel to separate the case halves. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Feb 15 15:32:17 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 15:32:17 Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: <200602142307550587.0825B58E@10.0.0.252> References: <200602141618510840.06AF37C9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060215153217.3a870364@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Chuck, You may not believe it but the best method that I've found to get into wallwarts is to lay them on a hard surface and smack them with a hammer! It's sort of like cracking open walnuts. If you hit it on a seam you can usually pop the seam apart. One of the advantges of doing it this way is that there's no gap to fill such as there would be if you cut it open. It takes a bit of practice to learn how how to hit them but once you learn you can pop the shell apart without damaging anything inside. If you don't trust yourself to break one open then the next best thing is one of the THIN saws made by Exacto. They're about 6 inches long and fit in the large Exacto handle. The nice thing about them is that they have FINE teeth (just right for cutting thin plastic) and the blade is very thin so there's little gap left to fill when you glue the case back together. The saw blade is about 1 1/4" deep and has a backbone on it to keep it stiff. You should be able to find one in any good hobby shop. Joe At 11:07 PM 2/14/06 -0800, you wrote: >Maybe it's the Scrooge in me, but I've got a couple of wall warts (power >supplies) that either have open fuses or dried up caps in them. They're >either multi-voltage or have unusual enough ratings (e.g. 18 vdc @ 1500 ma) >that I'm reluctant to scrap them. > >Does anyone have a sure-fire method for getting into the case such that it >can be reclosed? I was thinking about using a saw blade on a Dremel to >separate the case halves. > >Cheers, >Chuck > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Feb 15 15:43:08 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 15:43:08 Subject: Replace 3.5" drives in HP9122D/HP9133H In-Reply-To: <831434B713AA43429AF3F3EE801F38B202E867@rst-exc06.za.astgro up.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060215154308.0fef0f68@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:13 AM 2/15/06 +0200, you wrote: >I am wondering whether it is possible to replace the ailing Sony 3.5" >disc drives in both my HP9122D and HP9133H HP-IB units with PC 3.5" >drives? Not a chance! Tony Duell can give you all the technical details but the short version is that drives are completely different. The good news is that 9122 and compatible drives are frequently cheap on E-bay and in surplus stores. Joe > >These are the older Sony 3/4 height units with separate data & power >connectors, model OA-D32W-10 (double sided). The data connector has 26 >pins. The power connector is standard 4 pin. > >I located the pin-outs for these drives on a Japanese site, and found >that I could match all but 3 signals to a 'standard' 3.5" disc drive: > >SONY OA-D32W-10 STANDARD > >1 Motor On -----> 10 /MOTEA - 0=Motor Enable >Drive 0 >2 Drive Select 0 -----> 14 /DRVSB - Drive Select 0 >3 Disk Change -----> 34 /DSKCHG - 1=Disk Change/0=Ready >4 Drive Select 1 -----> 12 /DRVSB - Drive Select 1 > >5 Disk Change Reset -----> ???? > >6 Direction Select -----> 18 /DIR - 0=Direction Select >7 GND -----> GND >8 Step -----> 20 /Step - 0=Head Step >9 GND -----> GND >10 Write Data -----> 22 /WDATE - Write Data >11 GND -----> GND >12 Write Gate -----> 24 /WGATE - Floppy Write Enable, >0=Write Gate >13 GND -----> GND > >14 Head Read -----> ???? > >15 GND -----> GND >16 Head Select -----> 32 /SIDE1 - 0=Head Select >17 GND -----> GND >18 Index -----> 8 /Index - 0=Index >19 GND -----> GND >20 Track 00 -----> 26 /TRK00 - 0=Track 00 >21 GND -----> GND >22 Write Protected -----> 28 /WPT - 0=Write Protect >23 GND -----> GND >24 Read Data -----> 30 /RDATA - Read Data >25 GND -----> GND > >26 Ready -----> ???? > >Is such a retro-fitting exercise possible? One possible problem could be >the rotational speed; I know the Sony drives spun at 600rpm as opposed >to the PC standard 300rpm... Any comments and/or suggestions about the >feasibility, as well as matching the signals of pins 5, 14, and 26? > >Cheers > >Glen. > From James at jdfogg.com Wed Feb 15 14:42:10 2006 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 15:42:10 -0500 Subject: Data General MV/1400 info Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A01AE66@sbs.jdfogg.com> My older brother was one of the developers of AOS/VS, the OS this machine ran. I have been looking for such a machine for a long time. The MV's are early 32bit minis. They were competitive with the PDP's and other minis of the era (1980's). They communicate with serial terminals mostly, and the terminal is slightly odd in its protocol (Dasher terminals). A DEC terminal will get you started, but will be frustrating. There's a lot to know about these machines and there is at least one knowledgeable person on this list who has various DG equipment (other lines are the NOVA and ECLIPSE systems). They are one of the rarer minis. And I apologize in advance for top-posting, and for the stupid little attachment that some users will see. I'm stuck on Outlook Web Access today and it doesn't play nice. ________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Glen Heiberg Sent: Wed 2/15/2006 1:54 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Data General MV/1400 info Saw a Data General MV/1400 machine at a client site yesterday acting as a coffee stand! It's about the size of a 6U rack server standing on its side, mounted on a 'foot'. Apart from an ON/OFF button and the name badge, the front has a QIC-type tape drive, and next to it a blanking plate that appears to be able to house either another QIC drive or a floppy drive. Nothing else interesting. Unfortunately I wasn't able to peek at the back. Google didn't yield much on this machine. Anybody know more details? Glen. From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Feb 15 15:07:06 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:07:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060215153217.3a870364@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > If you don't trust yourself to break one open then the next best thing > is one of the THIN saws made by Exacto. They're about 6 inches long and fit > in the large Exacto handle. The nice thing about them is that they have > FINE teeth (just right for cutting thin plastic) and the blade is very thin > so there's little gap left to fill when you glue the case back together. > The saw blade is about 1 1/4" deep and has a backbone on it to keep it > stiff. You should be able to find one in any good hobby shop. When I have needed to cut open a wallwart nicely, I do it on a table saw. This way I can control the depth of the cut, as well as having a nice even seam. The only problem (and not much of one, really) is the gap that might result from the wider width blades. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Feb 15 15:04:12 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:04:12 -0500 Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: <200602141618510840.06AF37C9@10.0.0.252> References: <200602141618510840.06AF37C9@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200602151604.12946.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Tuesday 14 February 2006 07:18 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Maybe it's the Scrooge in me, but I've got a couple of wall warts (power > supplies) that either have open fuses or dried up caps in them. They're > either multi-voltage or have unusual enough ratings (e.g. 18 vdc @ 1500 ma) > that I'm reluctant to scrap them. > > Does anyone have a sure-fire method for getting into the case such that it > can be reclosed? I was thinking about using a saw blade on a Dremel to > separate the case halves. Not "sure fire", but the first thing I'd try is a swab soaked in acetone (nail polish remover :-) along the seam... I've had some luck with that, anyhow. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Feb 15 15:14:31 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:14:31 -0500 Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: <200602151604.12946.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200602141618510840.06AF37C9@10.0.0.252> <200602151604.12946.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <43F399B7.4020603@gmail.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 14 February 2006 07:18 pm, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>Maybe it's the Scrooge in me, but I've got a couple of wall warts (power >>supplies) that either have open fuses or dried up caps in them. They're >>either multi-voltage or have unusual enough ratings (e.g. 18 vdc @ 1500 ma) >>that I'm reluctant to scrap them. >> >>Does anyone have a sure-fire method for getting into the case such that it >>can be reclosed? I was thinking about using a saw blade on a Dremel to >>separate the case halves. > > > Not "sure fire", but the first thing I'd try is a swab soaked in acetone > (nail polish remover :-) along the seam... > > I've had some luck with that, anyhow. I've tried that too. I think the hammer trick works better. Peace... Sridhar From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Feb 15 15:12:38 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:12:38 -0500 Subject: c= stuff Message-ID: <200602151612.38890.rtellason@blazenet.net> Anybody have any c64s or 128s kicking around? I have some folks that are interested in SID chips, the computers need not be working, I want 'em to scrap, and don't need the other parts to be good either, nor the power supplies, cases, keyboards, etc. -- just the boards. I'm not looking to go beyond "yard sale prices", either. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 15 15:34:12 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 15:34:12 -0600 Subject: c= stuff In-Reply-To: <200602151612.38890.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200602151612.38890.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060215153243.04f2ddd0@mail> At 03:12 PM 2/15/2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >I have some folks that are interested in SID chips, the computers need not be >working, I want 'em to scrap, What are these folks actually do with them? Has anyone ever determined why SID chips were so sensitive and tried to determine a preventative? - John From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Feb 15 15:56:58 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:56:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: c= stuff In-Reply-To: <200602151612.38890.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <20060215215658.7E65258103@mail.wordstock.com> > > Anybody have any c64s or 128s kicking around? > > I have some folks that are interested in SID chips, the computers need not be > working, I want 'em to scrap, and don't need the other parts to be good > either, nor the power supplies, cases, keyboards, etc. -- just the > boards. > Most C= people don't like the idea of scrapping a working system just to get a part or two... Cheers, Bryan From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Feb 15 16:02:15 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:02:15 -0600 Subject: c= stuff In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060215153243.04f2ddd0@mail> References: <200602151612.38890.rtellason@blazenet.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060215153243.04f2ddd0@mail> Message-ID: <43F3A4E7.3030700@pacbell.net> John Foust wrote: > At 03:12 PM 2/15/2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> I have some folks that are interested in SID chips, the computers need not be >> working, I want 'em to scrap, > > What are these folks actually do with them? > > Has anyone ever determined why SID chips were so sensitive and > tried to determine a preventative? I know that the catweasel has a space for plugging in a SID chip. it has nothing to do with floppy emulation, but I guess it didn't take up much room and many of the catweasel users are commodore fans. From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Feb 15 15:16:14 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:16:14 -0500 Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? In-Reply-To: <001901c63266$e47650d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001901c63266$e47650d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <43F39A1E.8070400@atarimuseum.com> Anyone know of any PCB firms that still do PCB production based on original Film art? I have most of the films for what was and wasn't produced by Atari, there are no digital files (heck some of these very early films, like the original Pong console are done with adhesive tape onto a clear plastic film for crying out loud!) So I am looking for a place that can still work with this old style way of making PCB's, anyone? Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.9/261 - Release Date: 2/15/2006 From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Feb 15 15:17:30 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:17:30 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <43F37019.9FA37C72@rain.org> References: <43F37019.9FA37C72@rain.org> Message-ID: <43F39A6A.5080601@atarimuseum.com> I did that one time (not a porno pic) but I replaced the file with a picture saying "PICTURE STOLEN FROM ATARI MUSEUM" and that got the sellers attention VERY quickly :-) Curt Marvin Johnston wrote: > One of the best ways I've heard of to "encourage" people not to directly > link is to: > > 1) change the image name for your site > 2) change the linked image to a porno type photo. That tends to get > auctions shut > down fairly quickly :). > > > >> here or there... I had a huge spike in bandwidth usage one time and >> started to investigate, I had found nearly 4 dozen Atari related >> auctions running on ebay at any given time using stolen images directly >> linking from my server, so I cut off access to the ebay and subset >> > > >> Curt >> > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.9/261 - Release Date: 2/15/2006 From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Feb 15 16:32:09 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:32:09 -0500 Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:16:14 EST." <43F39A1E.8070400@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200602152232.k1FMW9lw000582@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: >Anyone know of any PCB firms that still do PCB production based on >original Film art? I have most of the films for what was and wasn't >produced by Atari, there are no digital files (heck some of these very >early films, like the original Pong console are done with adhesive tape >onto a clear plastic film for crying out loud!) So I am looking for a >place that can still work with this old style way of making PCB's, anyone? I doubt you'll find anyone because they all "palletize" using gerber files. But I might be wrong. I wonder if you could not scan the film and then (waves arms and thinks of AI, chicken feathers and blind luck) somehow extract a gerber out of it. Actually, spending a minute in google, it seems that this is a common service done my cad conversion houses. Seems like feature extraction in such a limited domain might actually be pretty good - i.e. you could do it mostly in software. -brad From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 15 16:32:46 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:32:46 -0600 Subject: c= stuff In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060215153243.04f2ddd0@mail> References: <200602151612.38890.rtellason@blazenet.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060215153243.04f2ddd0@mail> Message-ID: <43F3AC0E.5090508@oldskool.org> John Foust wrote: >>I have some folks that are interested in SID chips, the computers need not be >>working, I want 'em to scrap, > > What are these folks actually do with them? Synthesizers and emulators. Catweasel has a socket for one so that you can emulate a C64 but with real C64 SID sound and read the diskettes natively on your PC 5.25" drive. As for synths, retro sound is (still) popular, so there are cards that take four SIDs and give you 12 voices controllable by MIDI (including sysex stuff like filters). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 15 16:34:54 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:34:54 -0600 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <43F39A6A.5080601@atarimuseum.com> References: <43F37019.9FA37C72@rain.org> <43F39A6A.5080601@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <43F3AC8E.7070901@oldskool.org> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I did that one time (not a porno pic) but I replaced the file with a > picture saying "PICTURE STOLEN FROM ATARI MUSEUM" and that got the > sellers attention VERY quickly :-) Yep, this is what we do at mobygames.com (any linked images are replaced on the fly with "Visit MobyGames.com!") -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Feb 15 16:35:26 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:35:26 -0500 Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? In-Reply-To: <200602152232.k1FMW9lw000582@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200602152232.k1FMW9lw000582@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <43F3ACAE.5010903@atarimuseum.com> Someone just contacts me off-list with a place that may help, here is one set I'm looking to reproduce: http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/8BITS/1200xl/s-16/s-16-proto_PCB_RevX8A.jpg Curt Brad Parker wrote: > "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > >> Anyone know of any PCB firms that still do PCB production based on >> original Film art? I have most of the films for what was and wasn't >> produced by Atari, there are no digital files (heck some of these very >> early films, like the original Pong console are done with adhesive tape >> onto a clear plastic film for crying out loud!) So I am looking for a >> place that can still work with this old style way of making PCB's, anyone? >> > > I doubt you'll find anyone because they all "palletize" using gerber > files. But I might be wrong. > > I wonder if you could not scan the film and then (waves arms and thinks > of AI, chicken feathers and blind luck) somehow extract a gerber out of > it. > > Actually, spending a minute in google, it seems that this is a common > service done my cad conversion houses. > > Seems like feature extraction in such a limited domain might actually be > pretty good - i.e. you could do it mostly in software. > > -brad > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.9/261 - Release Date: 2/15/2006 From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 15 16:35:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 15:35:55 -0700 Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:16:14 -0500. <43F39A1E.8070400@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article <43F39A1E.8070400 at atarimuseum.com>, "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > Anyone know of any PCB firms that still do PCB production based on > original Film art? [...] Is it possible to scan the film art to produce a digital work file? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Feb 15 17:12:47 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:12:47 -0500 Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43F3B56F.8070404@atarimuseum.com> It would be an interesting idea, use a CAD program, place the image as a background, maybe make the lines a bright color, then use the tools to literally do a CAD "trace" over the background and create a new digital image... Curt Richard wrote: > In article <43F39A1E.8070400 at atarimuseum.com>, > "Curt @ Atari Museum" writes: > > >> Anyone know of any PCB firms that still do PCB production based on >> original Film art? [...] >> > > Is it possible to scan the film art to produce a digital work file? > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.9/261 - Release Date: 2/15/2006 From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Feb 15 17:57:28 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:57:28 -0500 Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:35:26 EST." <43F3ACAE.5010903@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200602152357.k1FNvS8L018704@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: >Someone just contacts me off-list with a place that may help, here is >one set I'm looking to reproduce: > >http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/8BITS/1200xl/s-16/s-16-proto_PCB_RevX8A.j >pg Oh, I was *afraid* you where going there :-) that sure looks like a coin-op game to me! but what the heck are those 5 big Hershey bars? i can't tell from that photo, but it looks like there might be enough logic for some line ram and counters, maybe a cpu but I don't see any stacks of eproms for stamps or background. what ever it is the graphics can't be too magical. so, what is it? :-) i'm guessing it's not pong, becuase it has a cpu. -brad From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Feb 15 17:54:52 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:54:52 -0500 Subject: c= stuff In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060215153243.04f2ddd0@mail> References: <200602151612.38890.rtellason@blazenet.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060215153243.04f2ddd0@mail> Message-ID: <200602151854.52165.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 15 February 2006 04:34 pm, John Foust wrote: > At 03:12 PM 2/15/2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >I have some folks that are interested in SID chips, the computers need > > not be working, I want 'em to scrap, > > What are these folks actually do with them? It's my understanding that the folks interested in these are using them in audio synthesizer type applications. I haven't really gotten into it in much detail with them, just sent a bunch of the ones I had off and got a request for a whole bunch more. > Has anyone ever determined why SID chips were so sensitive and > tried to determine a preventative? Sensitive how? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Feb 15 17:55:59 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:55:59 -0500 Subject: c= stuff In-Reply-To: <20060215215658.7E65258103@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060215215658.7E65258103@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200602151855.59815.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 15 February 2006 04:56 pm, Bryan Pope wrote: > > Anybody have any c64s or 128s kicking around? > > > > I have some folks that are interested in SID chips, the computers need > > not be working, I want 'em to scrap, and don't need the other parts to > > be good either, nor the power supplies, cases, keyboards, etc. -- > > just the boards. > > Most C= people don't like the idea of scrapping a working system just to > get a part or two... That's why I said they need not work. :-) I used to fix a *lot* of those, and when we closed up the shop I ended up with a pile of the "difficult cases" that ended up being scrapped out. Now they're all gone and I'd like to get my hands on some more, only nobody seems to have any that I've found so far. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 15 18:24:31 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 18:24:31 -0600 Subject: c= stuff In-Reply-To: <200602151854.52165.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200602151612.38890.rtellason@blazenet.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060215153243.04f2ddd0@mail> <200602151854.52165.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060215182224.0505cdb8@mail> At 05:54 PM 2/15/2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >It's my understanding that the folks interested in these are using them in >audio synthesizer type applications. "Emulation" has a new shade of meaning in this context, doesn't it? Incorporating old chips into new designs in order to perfectly reproduce unique functionality like the quirks of the SID audio. >> Has anyone ever determined why SID chips were so sensitive and >> tried to determine a preventative? > >Sensitive how? SID and CIA chips used to die left and right back in the day, no? CIAs are understandable because they dealt with I/O connectors, but I thought SID chips died often, too. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 15 18:49:54 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:49:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <43F39A6A.5080601@atarimuseum.com> References: <43F37019.9FA37C72@rain.org> <43F39A6A.5080601@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20060215164842.W95207@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 15 Feb 2006, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I did that one time (not a porno pic) but I replaced the file with a > picture saying "PICTURE STOLEN FROM ATARI MUSEUM" and that got the > sellers attention VERY quickly :-) Do you have any pictures of machines that are charred, melted, smashed, rusty, with bugs and weeds growing in them? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 15 18:19:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:19:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: extra rom sockets was Re: BIOS upgrade cards In-Reply-To: <20060214004721.49641.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 13, 6 04:47:21 pm Message-ID: > > --- Fred Cisin wrote: > > > ...there was room for 48K of ROMs, with > > 40K being used (IBM 5150) > > therefore anything you plug into those extra rom > sockets would allow you to access them and create a > "hex dump" if that's the right term, and save it to > disk. ISTR Intel having some sort of hex format for > rom images. I think so. There would be two caveats, though : 1) The ROM would have ot have the right pinout (although I am pretty sure IBM used a standard one). 2) The ROM had better not look like a valid BIOS extension ROM (i.e. have the right header and checksum) if you don't want it to be executed at boot-up. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 15 18:21:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:21:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sirius 1 (aka Victor 9000) on Ebay (UK) In-Reply-To: <20060214011001.33675.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 13, 6 05:10:01 pm Message-ID: > Pretty sure it was a Hitachi something or other. At > least according to the BYTE review *not in front of > me*. Whether or not that amounted to a 6845 > clone...dunno. > The TI PC used a 6545. I think there may even have > been a discussion about it recently. Is that > essentially a 6845 clone? I think I even have the app I think so (and I think the Hitachi one was as well). There may be minor differences, IIRC one manufacture let you read back any of the internal registers, on the original Motorola part they were write-only (the only thigh you could read were the light-pen latches). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 15 18:27:41 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:27:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: <200602141618510840.06AF37C9@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 14, 6 04:18:51 pm Message-ID: > > Maybe it's the Scrooge in me, but I've got a couple of wall warts (power > supplies) that either have open fuses or dried up caps in them. They're Very few wall-wears (at least the ones sold over here) contain fuses any more. The transformer is designed to burn out in a safe way if overloaded, or so I am told -- personal experience suggests it does not do so before the case has started to melt and smoke is coming out! > either multi-voltage or have unusual enough ratings (e.g. 18 vdc @ 1500 ma) > that I'm reluctant to scrap them. > > Does anyone have a sure-fire method for getting into the case such that it > can be reclosed? I was thinking about using a saw blade on a Dremel to > separate the case halves. The method I normally use is to put a thin piece of metal in the crack between the case halves and tap it with a hammer. The idea is to shock the glued joint between the 2 parts. Work round and round the case, in the end it'll start to separate. You will probably slightly damage one case half, but nothing serious, When youv've done the repair, put the parts back together and run a fine brush dipped in dichloromethane (methylene chloride) round the crack. That should disolve the plastic and weld the case back together. Another method of opening them I've heard of, but don't have the courage to try is to swing the wall wart by the cables against a hard surface repeatedly until it pops apart.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 15 19:09:52 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 01:09:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 30, Issue 39 In-Reply-To: <01C631CC.188FBB40@MSE_D03> from "M H Stein" at Feb 14, 6 10:12:20 pm Message-ID: > > >Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 03:55:02 +0000 (GMT) > >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > >Subject: Re: eBay Item Not Won: Vintage Digital DECWriter IV terminal, > DEC, > > > >> Does anyone have DEC lineprinters or other printers w/out keyboards in > >> their collections? Pictures? > > >I've got at least one LA100 (receive-only) in my collection (and I think > >a KSR one with a keyboard). > > >Externally these look like a DECwriter 4, but have redesigned internals, > >with a printhead that's shiffted up and down mechancially to give twice > >the verical resouliton (the NLQ font is printed in 2 passes, one with the > >head in each posuition). > > >-tony > --------------------------- > Ah yes, that would be the Letterprinter 100 and the Letterwriter 100 Exactly. I'd forgotten the name last night. > respectively; I have a few of those myself awaiting a trip to the dumpster, as Why? I regard them as one of the more interesting dot-matrix printers of the time. Not quite a Sanders, but higher resolution than it should be. > well as some parts & ribbons. Tony, I naturally assume you have the > documentation set? I think so. I certain;y have the Letterwriter 210 programmer's mamuals, etc (and the control codes are much the same -- heck, the design is much the same). I know I have the LA100 printset as well (which for some odd reason doesn't include a schrmatic of the PSU). Talking of old DEC printers, doea anyone know the LA324? It's more modern (but still, I think, over 10 years old). I think it's 24 pin dot matrix, can take a colour ribbon, and has 3 microcontrollers inside. I don't think I do have the control codes for that one -- any ideas where I could find them. > > BTW, Tony, for someone as meticulous as you about some things, I'm > surprised to see so many typos in your messages lately; is this a hardware > or mushware problem, or none of my business? Oh, a wetware problem, certainly. Too many late nights looking at obscure bits of hardware. I need a holiday (I've not had one for 20 years), but alas if I'm anywhere near old computer bits I can't resist fiddling with them, and holidays far from computers cost money that I don't have... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 15 18:51:03 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:51:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Replace 3.5" drives in HP9122D/HP9133H In-Reply-To: <831434B713AA43429AF3F3EE801F38B202E867@rst-exc06.za.astgroup.com> from "Glen Heiberg" at Feb 15, 6 10:13:22 am Message-ID: > > I am wondering whether it is possible to replace the ailing Sony 3.5" > disc drives in both my HP9122D and HP9133H HP-IB units with PC 3.5" > drives? Personally, I think it would be a lot easier to repair the existing drives. The main problem with these is that the grease on the eject mechanism hardens, and the mechanism doesn't lock properly. If this is not caught in time, then the upper head will catch in the disk shutter when you eject the disk and will be ripped off the gimbal spring. If that's happend you're looking for a new head assembly (been there, done that). The procedure for stripping down the drive has been posted here and on http://www.hpmuseum.org/ many times in the past. Let me know if you want me to go through it again... If you have electronic faults, you might want to grab 'my' 9114A scheamtics from http://www.hpmuseum.net (not the same site as above!). I included diagrams for the 2 common versions of the PCB (FC9, FC16) and the motor. > > These are the older Sony 3/4 height units with separate data & power > connectors, model OA-D32W-10 (double sided). The data connector has 26 > pins. The power connector is standard 4 pin. I know them only too well! > > I located the pin-outs for these drives on a Japanese site, and found > that I could match all but 3 signals to a 'standard' 3.5" disc drive: > > SONY OA-D32W-10 STANDARD > > 1 Motor On -----> 10 /MOTEA - 0=Motor Enable > Drive 0 > 2 Drive Select 0 -----> 14 /DRVSB - Drive Select 0 > 3 Disk Change -----> 34 /DSKCHG - 1=Disk Change/0=Ready > 4 Drive Select 1 -----> 12 /DRVSB - Drive Select 1 Be casreful. IIRC the double-sided Sony drives use a binary encoded select scheme (i.e. they allow for 4 drives on the cable, selected by a 2 bit binary number, not the 1-of-n code used on almost all other drives. This is clear from the schematics...) > > 5 Disk Change Reset -----> ???? This is an input to the drive. you might be able to ignore it. > > 6 Direction Select -----> 18 /DIR - 0=Direction Select > 7 GND -----> GND > 8 Step -----> 20 /Step - 0=Head Step > 9 GND -----> GND > 10 Write Data -----> 22 /WDATE - Write Data > 11 GND -----> GND > 12 Write Gate -----> 24 /WGATE - Floppy Write Enable, > 0=Write Gate > 13 GND -----> GND > > 14 Head Read -----> ???? There are many jokes based on confusion between 'L' and 'R' in Japanese. It appears they may be based on fact. That pin is 'Head Load' (and yes, these drives do have a head load solenoid). > > 15 GND -----> GND > 16 Head Select -----> 32 /SIDE1 - 0=Head Select > 17 GND -----> GND > 18 Index -----> 8 /Index - 0=Index > 19 GND -----> GND > 20 Track 00 -----> 26 /TRK00 - 0=Track 00 > 21 GND -----> GND > 22 Write Protected -----> 28 /WPT - 0=Write Protect > 23 GND -----> GND > 24 Read Data -----> 30 /RDATA - Read Data > 25 GND -----> GND > > 26 Ready -----> ???? > > Is such a retro-fitting exercise possible? One possible problem could be > the rotational speed; I know the Sony drives spun at 600rpm as opposed > to the PC standard 300rpm... Any comments and/or suggestions about the That's the major problem. You would have to modify the controller to run at hald the data rate. Maybe the firmware would need modification too. Personally, I'd think it would be a lot easier to repair the existing drive. > feasibility, as well as matching the signals of pins 5, 14, and 26? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 15 18:56:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:56:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Anyone with an ATW800 (Transputer workstation)? In-Reply-To: <20060215133642.DRXZ15335.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> from "Dave Dunfield" at Feb 15, 6 08:36:28 am Message-ID: > > Does anyone on the list have an Atari ATW800 "Transputer Workstation"? > > Just acquired one - am bringing it up, and have a few questions... > > Dave > > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > Does anyone on the list have an Atari ATW800 "Transputer Workstation"? > > Just acquired one - am bringing it up, and have a few questions... Oooh... Very nice! I don't know that machine specifically, but I've done a bit with transputers, including making a homebrew system (heck, that's classic now, I built it over 10 years ago). If you need any hardware info on the transputer (which I regard as a very nice microcontroller [1]) let me know [1] Well, it has on-chip RAM, on-chip boot ROM, and built-in serial ports. Why shouldn't I call it a microcontroller? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 15 19:00:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 01:00:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Feb 15, 6 04:07:06 pm Message-ID: > When I have needed to cut open a wallwart nicely, I do it on a table > saw. This way I can control the depth of the cut, as well as having a nice > even seam. The only problem (and not much of one, really) is the gap that > might result from the wider width blades. Waht about using a slitting saw in a milling machine (or lathe with vertical slide)? I've seen those down to a few thou' cut width, and you'd have excellent control off the depth of cut. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 15 19:16:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:16:50 -0800 Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060215153217.3a870364@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200602141618510840.06AF37C9@10.0.0.252> <3.0.6.16.20060215153217.3a870364@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200602151716500826.0C0AA05B@10.0.0.252> On 2/15/2006 at 3:32 PM Joe R. wrote: > You may not believe it but the best method that I've found to get into >wallwarts is to lay them on a hard surface and smack them with a hammer! >It's sort of like cracking open walnuts. If you hit it on a seam you can >usually pop the seam apart. One of the advantges of doing it this way is >that there's no gap to fill such as there would be if you cut it open. It >takes a bit of practice to learn how how to hit them but once you learn you >can pop the shell apart without damaging anything inside. Well, I've got a bunch of nice soft-faced hammers, from a 10 oz. rubber mallet to a rawhide hammer. I started with a NEC 18v 1800ma. cube with a blown fuse. I whacked that thing until the experience was no longer cathartic and my arm was tired--nothing. I then grabbed my jeweler's frame saw and ran the very thin blade down the groove a bit (using a couple of drops of oil to prevent binding). I didn't cut all the way through; maybe only the first 1/64 of an inch to weaken the joint a bit. A few more healthy whacks with a mallet and the thing opened right up, without damaging a thing! I wish I'd hung onto the plastic-faced shot-filled flooring hammer I once owned--it was probably about 20 oz. and you could land some serious blows with it. Next up is an early 80's Racal Vadic modem PSU. Not really a wall wart in the sense that it actually has a line cord; but the caps in it have dried out and the regulated +/-12, +5 supplies make this one worth salvaging, as the internal caps have dried out. Actually, most DC wall warts are doomed if they get warm enough during operation. Darned things just cook the juices out of the caps. Thanks all, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 15 19:27:59 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:27:59 -0800 Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602151727590511.0C14D447@10.0.0.252> On 2/16/2006 at 12:27 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Very few wall-wears (at least the ones sold over here) contain fuses any >more. The transformer is designed to burn out in a safe way if >overloaded, or so I am told -- personal experience suggests it does not >do so before the case has started to melt and smoke is coming out! That's pretty surprising to me, considering that most UK appliances seem to have a fuse in the mains plug (almost every one I've seen has been 13A, yet I KNOW other values are sold). Over here, consumer electronics are usually fused, but appliances are not, depending on the 15 or 20A distribution panel breaker to trip. The NEC wart that I just opened has a microfuse in the DC output. Somehow, I'd expected to see a fuse in the transformer primary. It seems to me that the fuse as is may protect the attached equipment, but if the transformer developed a short in the windings, the thing would turn to slag before opening the circuit. Cheers, Chuck From lee at geekdot.com Wed Feb 15 20:15:42 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (lee at geekdot.com) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 03:15:42 +0100 (CET) Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists Message-ID: <4561.86.138.229.113.1140056142.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> It would seem that stussy is feeling a little pressured. http://www.britishinformation.com/forums/about1931.html What a shame. Lee. From doug at blinkenlights.com Wed Feb 15 22:54:55 2006 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 20:54:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <20060215164842.W95207@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Feb 2006, Fred Cisin wrote: > Do you have any pictures of machines that are charred, melted, smashed, > rusty, with bugs and weeds growing in them? He he. This is the one I used when somebody ripped my images for their ebay listing: http://www.geolf.ntnu.no/broken_computer.jpg -- Doug From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 15 21:10:08 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 19:10:08 -0800 Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? Message-ID: <43F3ED10.B30177F7@rain.org> I can't imagine any PC house not being able to use photo artwork to produce the boards. The one thing a gerber file does provide is the drill file with drill sizes, so you would need to take the padmaster and identify the different hole sizes. The PC house will normally enlarge the sizes you come up with so that the plating and solder reflow process brings the holes sizes down to what you specify. If indeed you have the master 2X or 4X layouts, an engineering photo lab should be able to reduce them to 1X artwork. BTW, I also have the photo artwork for several Polymorphic PC boards. > Anyone know of any PCB firms that still do PCB production based on > original Film art? I have most of the films for what was and wasn't > produced by Atari, there are no digital files (heck some of these very > early films, like the original Pong console are done with adhesive tape > onto a clear plastic film for crying out loud!) So I am looking for a > place that can still work with this old style way of making PCB's, anyone? > > Curt From allain at panix.com Wed Feb 15 21:52:45 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 22:52:45 -0500 Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? References: <43F3B56F.8070404@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <004f01c632ac$729ea0c0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > use the tools to literally do a CAD "trace" over the > background and create a new ... The copy of Corel I have (old, v8: 1998) includes as it does OCR for text, also tracepaths for lineart. John A. tr -english From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Feb 15 22:07:43 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 20:07:43 -0800 Subject: KM11 replica Message-ID: <1140062863.7257.8.camel@linux.site> It was pointed out to me today that the parts list that I supplied for my KM11 replica has an error in it. For IC1-IC4 the part number has two of the digits transposed. The correct part number is ULN2803A. The PDF documentation and the parts list on the web site have both been updated with the correct part number. -- TTFN - Guy From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Feb 15 22:19:47 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:19:47 -0500 Subject: c= stuff In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060215182224.0505cdb8@mail> References: <200602151612.38890.rtellason@blazenet.net> <200602151854.52165.rtellason@blazenet.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060215182224.0505cdb8@mail> Message-ID: <200602152319.47942.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 15 February 2006 07:24 pm, John Foust wrote: > At 05:54 PM 2/15/2006, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >It's my understanding that the folks interested in these are using them in > >audio synthesizer type applications. > > "Emulation" has a new shade of meaning in this context, doesn't it? > Incorporating old chips into new designs in order to perfectly > reproduce unique functionality like the quirks of the SID audio. > > >> Has anyone ever determined why SID chips were so sensitive and > >> tried to determine a preventative? > > > >Sensitive how? > > SID and CIA chips used to die left and right back in the day, no? > CIAs are understandable because they dealt with I/O connectors, > but I thought SID chips died often, too. Not that often in my experience. But yeah those CIA chips... We used to buy a square of that black foam that radio shack sold, which being way too springy was next to useless for sticking chips into, and with an empty DB9 shell stuff a sliver of it into the joystick connectors on a c64 or 128. It didn't bother the joysticks any, though it would tend to upset game paddles or some other peripherals (which most folks didn't use anyhow). Saved a lot of repeat stuff, that little trick... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Feb 15 22:39:26 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 20:39:26 -0800 Subject: New PDP-11 stuff Message-ID: <1140064766.7257.38.camel@linux.site> I just thought I'd give an update on the various progress on the "new" PDP-11 stuff that I'm working on. As you all know the KM11 replica is now available. I have some "accessories" made up for it (actually someone did them on their own and I bought them). The accessories include some really cool plastic that allows the overlays to be set up on the board. I'll put some more information up on my website (http://www.shiresoft.com/products) shortly. I still have to make up the actual overlays themselves. I'm almost ready to send the MEM11A board out for fab. The layout has passed all of the checks (both EagleCAD and the board house). So I expect to have production boards ready by the end of April (protos back by end of February, debug, etc). Production boards (to get "reasonable" pricing) take 4 weeks. Just to let y'all know now, I'll need some firm orders before I go and build the production boards. To get the price I've indicated my website, I have to fork over ~$2K for the production run. I'm also finishing up a design for a "Unibus Analyzer". One of the problems I've had in debugging Unibus systems has been to: 1. get all of the signals grouped reasonably so I don't have to keep counting pins (and half the time getting it wrong) on the backplane. 2. having reasonable triggers 3. being able to "see" all of the signals at once. So, what I've done is design a board that goes in any SPC slot (...OK so it's not strictly Unibus...shoot me): 1. buffers and groups all of the unibus signals for easy access for a scope and/or logic analyzer probes (ie all address signals are grouped together, all data, etc) 2. provides comparators for the address and data lines to provide pattern matching to be used as a trigger for scope/logic analyzer. 3. provides LEDs for *all* unibus signals. Interested? Comments? With the recent talk about providing a "cool" front panel for an 11/44, I think I have an idea. I need to look at the details a bit more, but here's what I think it'll be able to do: 1. set an address 2. examine contents of memory 3. write into memory 4. run/halt CPU (haven't quite thought that one out completely yet). 5. switch register at a settable address. It'll be a two board set, one goes into (you guessed it) an SPC slot and has ribbon cables that go to the "lights & switches" that's mounted where you want it. It should work in any Unibus 11, but obviously would be best in 11/04, 11/24, 11/34, 11/44. I also think that it could be adapted to be used in a Qbus system. I'm taking the approach that the external lights & switches board would be common between the Unibus and Qbus versions. Do folks have other things they'd like done? BTW the disk emulator project is progressing (but slowly...it's a reasonably complex design and I want to get it "right"). These other projects are actually helping me out with it. -- TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 15 22:45:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 20:45:23 -0800 Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: <200602151727590511.0C14D447@10.0.0.252> References: <200602151727590511.0C14D447@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200602152045230986.0CC98E92@10.0.0.252> On 2/15/2006 at 5:27 PM Chuck Guzis wrote: Well, I applied the "smack it and crack it" approach to the Racal-Vadic supply. It opened, but the break wasn't very clean, mostly because there isn't a "groove" where the top meets the bottom part of the case. So it breaks along the weakest line--in this case, the part of the top case just above the overlap from the bottom part of the case. Somewhat irregular line, too. No matter--it can be stuck back together and if I have to repeat this operation on another wart, I'll remember to score a groove in the case if it doesn't have one. Cheers, Chuck From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Feb 15 22:53:01 2006 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:53:01 -0500 Subject: IBM PC110 For sale? Message-ID: I'm looking for an IBM PC110 now ... Any tipoffs would be greatly appreciated :) From m_thompson at ids.net Wed Feb 15 23:33:03 2006 From: m_thompson at ids.net (Michael Thompson) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:33:03 -0500 Subject: Stellar / Ardent / Stardent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20060216003232.01d544f0@ids.net> The Rhode Island Computer Museum has one. http://ricm.museum.com/collections/ardent/ardent.html At 03:10 AM 2/7/2006, Richard wrote: >Anyone remember these visualization workstations from around 1990? > >Anyone got one? :-) > >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > Michael Thompson E-Mail: M_Thompson at IDS.net From Glen.Heiberg at gijima.com Thu Feb 16 01:40:50 2006 From: Glen.Heiberg at gijima.com (Glen Heiberg) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 09:40:50 +0200 Subject: Replace 3.5" drives in HP9122D/HP9133H Message-ID: <831434B713AA43429AF3F3EE801F38B202E88F@rst-exc06.za.astgroup.com> Pity. And yes, I am sure Tony will be able to give us the tech details. Unfortunately, e-Bay is not necessarily good news for those of us outside the US. I investigated this route a while ago, and in most cases shipping to South Africa will be prohibitively expensive. >I am wondering whether it is possible to replace the ailing Sony 3.5" >disc drives in both my HP9122D and HP9133H HP-IB units with PC 3.5" >drives? Not a chance! Tony Duell can give you all the technical details but the short version is that drives are completely different. The good news is that 9122 and compatible drives are frequently cheap on E-bay and in surplus stores. Joe From technobug at comcast.net Thu Feb 16 02:22:19 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 01:22:19 -0700 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: <200602070043.k170hPYN088476@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200602070043.k170hPYN088476@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <9490E950-CD14-457D-A6E1-07CC23E2A17D@comcast.net> I've been following this thread with interest since I'm in the midst of restoring an HP Dynamic Systems Analyzer with two of the same tape drives installed. Both capstans were gooey. I considered the various suggestions and came up with an easy, inexpensive and accurate way of restoring the rubber coating on the capstan. Plasti Dip International makes a coating for tools, insulating, weatherproofing, etc. You dip the object you want to coat as many times as necessary to build up the necessary layer. The product has just about the right consistency to replace the old capstan rubber and appears to have excellent wear characteristics. I was able to add 0.021" [53.3] coating to the capstan in three dips to bring the diameter to the proper value. The diameter varies less than 0.001" [0.025] over several measures and the run-out is around 0.002" [0.051]. This was on the first try. The drive appeared to run the tapes on hand properly. A couple of hints: - stir the stuff well. However, not so fast as to introduce bubbles. - attach an extension to the can of dip and add one or two drops of solvent to the top of the dip. This will ensure that the area above the surface of the dip is saturated with solvent and will prevent skimming. - coat past the capstan onto the shaft. The added weight is negligible and will ensure that the coating is uniform over the capstan's surface. My next try will be on a capstan for a DEC 7-track tape drive belonging to a friend. From technobug at comcast.net Thu Feb 16 02:30:16 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 01:30:16 -0700 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: <9490E950-CD14-457D-A6E1-07CC23E2A17D@comcast.net> References: <200602070043.k170hPYN088476@dewey.classiccmp.org> <9490E950-CD14-457D-A6E1-07CC23E2A17D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2AAAEA88-F999-48D9-A21E-9A34D5BA70E3@comcast.net> Now that I have working tape drives for the Analyzer I find that the tensioning band in all the cassettes (30 YO ++) I have are blotto. The tapes themselves appear to be in excellent shape, even after running several. However, they quickly lose tension whenever they near the end of the tape. Inspection of the innards shows that all the bands have elongated holes and have zip elasticity. Any hints on how to get these cassettes operational? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 16 03:24:49 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 04:24:49 -0500 Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? In-Reply-To: <200602152357.k1FNvS8L018704@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <43F3ACAE.5010903@atarimuseum.com> <200602152357.k1FNvS8L018704@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 2/15/06, Brad Parker wrote: > "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > >http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/8BITS/1200xl/s-16/s-16-proto_PCB_RevX8A.jpg > > but what the heck are those 5 big Hershey bars? If I had to guess, some bit-slice parts, like the AMD2901s or similar. I know they used them on games like "Star Wars" for vector processors. -ethan From cc at corti-net.de Thu Feb 16 03:31:30 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:31:30 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Feb 2006, Richard wrote: > Based on posts here and information at hpmuseum.net, it seems that the > 2647A and 2649A had a programmable aspect to the equipment, while the > other 264x terminals did not. Each 264x terminal is programmable. You can write your own machine code and load it either from remote or from the tape drive into memory and execute it. There are several games for these terminals that run on the builtin processor, for both the i8008 (e.g. HP2644) and the i8080 (e.g. HP2645/48). The system calls are well documented in the technical manuals, as well as all ROM entry points, variables etc. I have about four or five *thick* binders for the HP2648 with detailed technical descriptions, microcode listings and schematics for all options that were available. Christian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 16 07:33:00 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:33:00 +0000 Subject: SGI Indyzone CDs + older SGI demos Message-ID: <43F47F0C.10302@yahoo.co.uk> Out of interest, has anyone archived the Indyzone CDs on the web? We've got one or two at the museum, but it'd be nice to find some others. I also picked up a 4D/35 (IP12, 80MB memory, Elan graphics) and an Indigo (only an R3k, but also with the Elan option). As both of these have the top of the range graphics options, if anyone has a pointer to any SGI demos / stuff that'd run under IRIX 5.3 and really show off the hardware it'd be much appreciated! (Actually I think one of our pair of existing Indigos is an R4k, so I can see a bit of mixing and matching coming on there) cheers Jules From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Feb 16 09:41:07 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:41:07 +0100 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <20060215164842.W95207@shell.lmi.net> References: <43F39A6A.5080601@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <43F4AB23.4891.57E388D@localhost> Am 15 Feb 2006 16:49 meinte Fred Cisin: > On Wed, 15 Feb 2006, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > I did that one time (not a porno pic) but I replaced the file with a > > picture saying "PICTURE STOLEN FROM ATARI MUSEUM" and that got the > > sellers attention VERY quickly :-) > Do you have any pictures of machines that are charred, melted, smashed, > rusty, with bugs and weeds growing in them? Just take the ones linked and let your friend Photoshop do the weed growing. Also nice, Picasso like deformations :) H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Feb 16 09:41:40 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 10:41:40 -0500 Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? In-Reply-To: <200602152357.k1FNvS8L018704@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200602152357.k1FNvS8L018704@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <43F49D34.4000601@atarimuseum.com> Hi Brad, it is an early proto design of the Atari 1200XL computer system. The "Hersey" bars are the footprints for the VLSI chips - 6502C, Antic, GTIA, Pokey, MMU, associated TTL's and RAM. Curt Brad Parker wrote: > "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > >> Someone just contacts me off-list with a place that may help, here is >> one set I'm looking to reproduce: >> >> http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/8BITS/1200xl/s-16/s-16-proto_PCB_RevX8A.j >> pg >> > > Oh, I was *afraid* you where going there :-) that sure looks like a > coin-op game to me! > > but what the heck are those 5 big Hershey bars? > > i can't tell from that photo, but it looks like there might be enough > logic for some line ram and counters, maybe a cpu but I don't see any > stacks of eproms for stamps or background. > > what ever it is the graphics can't be too magical. > > so, what is it? :-) i'm guessing it's not pong, becuase it has a cpu. > > -brad > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.10/262 - Release Date: 2/16/2006 From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Feb 16 09:59:12 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 07:59:12 -0800 Subject: SGI Indyzone CDs + older SGI demos In-Reply-To: <43F47F0C.10302@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43F47F0C.10302@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200602160759.12988.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Jules, On Thursday 16 February 2006 05:33, Jules Richardson wrote: > Out of interest, has anyone archived the Indyzone CDs on the web? We've got > one or two at the museum, but it'd be nice to find some others. > > > I also picked up a 4D/35 (IP12, 80MB memory, Elan graphics) and an Indigo > (only an R3k, but also with the Elan option). As both of these have the top > of the range graphics options, if anyone has a pointer to any SGI demos / > stuff that'd run under IRIX 5.3 and really show off the hardware it'd be > much appreciated! I haven't seen IRIX 5.3 or Indy Zone CDs on the net. Perhaps I'll take that up as my next "release" project (SGI is headquartered here in Mountain View). You might want to check with Ian Mapleson . He's located in England and may have everything you need. I mirror his website, which has lots of SGI info, drivers, etc. http://vintagecomputers.info/ > > (Actually I think one of our pair of existing Indigos is an R4k, so I can > see a bit of mixing and matching coming on there) Go for it. I've got several R4K Elan Indys - I think they are the "prettiest" machine that SGI ever produced. Of course, my SGI Infinite Reality will whip the little Indy all over in performance - but the Indy ELAN is a very cool machine! Cheers, Lyle > > cheers > > Jules -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Feb 16 12:51:08 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:51:08 -0500 Subject: eBay Item Not Won: Vintage Digital DECWriter IV terminal,DEC, Message-ID: <01C63300.7CC464A0@MSE_D03> >Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 01:09:52 +0000 (GMT) >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 30, Issue 39 >> respectively; I have a few of those myself awaiting a trip to the dumpster, as >Why? I regard them as one of the more interesting dot-matrix printers of >the time. Not quite a Sanders, but higher resolution than it should be. Well, I'm not a "collector" myself and unfortunately there doesn't seem to be enough interest in printers & terminals to justify the time, trouble and expense of properly packing & shipping them. >> well as some parts & ribbons. Tony, I naturally assume you have the >> documentation set? >I think so. I certain;y have the Letterwriter 210 programmer's mamuals, >etc (and the control codes are much the same -- heck, the design is much >the same). I know I have the LA100 printset as well (which for some odd >reason doesn't include a schrmatic of the PSU). True enough; the PSU had its own separate printset (B-TC-H7837-0-1, which I don't have either), although there is a block diagram and functional description in the Tech manual. mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 16 12:56:49 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:56:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: <200602151727590511.0C14D447@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 15, 6 05:27:59 pm Message-ID: > > On 2/16/2006 at 12:27 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >Very few wall-wears (at least the ones sold over here) contain fuses any > >more. The transformer is designed to burn out in a safe way if > >overloaded, or so I am told -- personal experience suggests it does not > >do so before the case has started to melt and smoke is coming out! > > That's pretty surprising to me, considering that most UK appliances seem to > have a fuse in the mains plug (almost every one I've seen has been 13A, yet Yes, the standard mains plug over here is rated at 13A, and contains a cartridge fuse (nromally, 3A, 5A, or 13A). Obviously PSUs with a mains cable are fitted with such a plug which contains a fuse (even moulded-on mains plugs [1] have a fuseholder and fuse) [1] %deity I hate those things. I've had all sorts of problems with them, from live/neutral reversed, to no strain relief on the cable... I cut them off and put a rewireable plug on the cable. But wall warts seem never to contain fuses, relying instead on the transformer burning out in a safe way. Since the fuse in the fusebox is generally rated at 30A, I am not very happy about this. I never use wall warts for homebrew projects. I build my own PSU, with fuses all over the place. OK, I can't stick an approval label on it, but I am darn sure it's safer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 16 13:16:19 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 19:16:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: eBay Item Not Won: Vintage Digital DECWriter IV terminal,DEC, In-Reply-To: <01C63300.7CC464A0@MSE_D03> from "M H Stein" at Feb 16, 6 01:51:08 pm Message-ID: > >> respectively; I have a few of those myself awaiting a trip to the dumpster, as > > >Why? I regard them as one of the more interesting dot-matrix printers of > >the time. Not quite a Sanders, but higher resolution than it should be. > > Well, I'm not a "collector" myself and unfortunately there doesn't seem to I'm not a collector either, at least not in the traditional sense. I _use_ these old machines after all. > be enough interest in printers & terminals to justify the time, trouble and > expense of properly packing & shipping them. This always upsets me. A computer is a lot more than just the CPU!. Perhaps since I am more interested in hardware, I can find as much interest in a terminal or a PSU than in the actual CPU. > > >> well as some parts & ribbons. Tony, I naturally assume you have the > >> documentation set? > > >I think so. I certain;y have the Letterwriter 210 programmer's mamuals, > >etc (and the control codes are much the same -- heck, the design is much > >the same). I know I have the LA100 printset as well (which for some odd > >reason doesn't include a schrmatic of the PSU). > > True enough; the PSU had its own separate printset (B-TC-H7837-0-1, > which I don't have either), although there is a block diagram and functional > description in the Tech manual. I don't think I have the technical manual, just the printset and the programming stuff. I assume you're not throwing out any manuals, if you are, please, please, please get them to somebody who will scan them (Yes, I much prefer paper manuals, and find scans very difficult to make use of here, but they're a lot better than having the information lost). Should I ever need to fix the PSU, I don't think it would take me that long to produce a schematic! -tony From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 16 14:24:41 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 14:24:41 -0600 Subject: SGI Indyzone CDs + older SGI demos In-Reply-To: <43F47F0C.10302@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43F47F0C.10302@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060216142226.05856af8@mail> At 07:33 AM 2/16/2006, Jules Richardson wrote: >Out of interest, has anyone archived the Indyzone CDs on the web? We've got one or two at the museum, but it'd be nice to find some others. I once had SGI developer status, and a few years back I sold on eBay an Indy and all sorts of other manuals and CDs. They sold at nice prices, as I recall... especially a hardware tech ref manual I had that I think was rare. They are in demand by all those folk who've rescued hardware without software. - John From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Thu Feb 16 15:11:30 2006 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 21:11:30 -0000 Subject: Repairing wall warts References: <200602151727590511.0C14D447@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <002a01c6333d$b56ed8c0$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 1:27 AM Subject: Re: Repairing wall warts > On 2/16/2006 at 12:27 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >Very few wall-wears (at least the ones sold over here) contain fuses any > >more. The transformer is designed to burn out in a safe way if > >overloaded, or so I am told -- personal experience suggests it does not > >do so before the case has started to melt and smoke is coming out! > > That's pretty surprising to me, considering that most UK appliances seem to > have a fuse in the mains plug (almost every one I've seen has been 13A, yet > I KNOW other values are sold). Over here, consumer electronics are usually > fused, but appliances are not, depending on the 15 or 20A distribution > panel breaker to trip. > > The NEC wart that I just opened has a microfuse in the DC output. Somehow, > I'd expected to see a fuse in the transformer primary. It seems to me that > the fuse as is may protect the attached equipment, but if the transformer > developed a short in the windings, the thing would turn to slag before > opening the circuit. > > Cheers, > Chuck A lot of the ones I've seen recently have a thermal fuse on top of the primary winding. Geoff. From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 16 16:16:42 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:16:42 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <00e301c63139$191dfb50$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <001201c63346$ab01ff80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I finally heard back from the site owner today. She apologized for Stussy's actions, removed the offending posts, and asked that "you and your friends stop posting on the Britishinformation.com boards. I am particularly concerned at the fact that your associates copied our sensitive whois data and published this alongside negative and untrue comments about our company on our website and cannot accept this so please do not do it again." Computer collectors are a force to be reckoned with! :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 2:35 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists Son of a b--ch! The bastard plagiarist is BACK. I just found this posted from five days after he finally removed it the first time: From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Feb 16 16:32:07 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:32:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <001201c63346$ab01ff80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001201c63346$ab01ff80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <200602162232.RAA09632@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > "[...] I am particularly concerned at the fact that your associates > copied our sensitive whois data [...]" *snerk* Anyone who thinks whois data is sensitive needs a pretty drastic reality check. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 16 16:36:30 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:36:30 -0500 Subject: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists In-Reply-To: <200602162232.RAA09632@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <001301c63349$6ed01e40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Agreed, but I'm just happy they removed the copied posts, so I didn't want to make more waves. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of der Mouse Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 5:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Slightly OT: Bastard plagiarists > "[...] I am particularly concerned at the fact that your associates > copied our sensitive whois data [...]" *snerk* Anyone who thinks whois data is sensitive needs a pretty drastic reality check. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Feb 16 18:01:00 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:01:00 +0000 Subject: 5160 motherboard slot restrictions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43F5123C.2000409@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> Under "puzzles for the ages", one might also wonder what the IBM was >> thinking when they added the 20ma current loop circuitry to the board. Did >> they really think that folks were going to use them to drive an ASR 33? Or >> that RS232-to-current loop adapters were hard to obtain? > > A few random guesses (as I haev said before, you can find out _what_ was > done (e.g. by looking at schemaitcs or listings), but not in general _why_) > > 1) The IBM PC had similar design ideas to the Apple ][ (open machine, > basic/cassette port, etc). One of the early Apple ][ serial boards had a > current loop intenrface (and the manual for that _did_ describe how to > connect it to an ASR33) > > 2) IIRC IBM made some current loop printers. A friend of mine has a > System 23 (Datamaster), I seem to remember the printer on that has a > current loop interface > > 3) There were other current loop devices around, maybe the extra > circuitry was added for people who wanted to use thoase Why have to > bother with an ecternal converter unit? > > -tony > Store Loop is basically 38400 baud current loop, using a protocol kind of similar to Broken Ring. It's bloody horrible, and the last few shops using it for their EPOS systems have now gone over to nice new systems that use Ethernet, just like the rest of the world. I must try and grab a couple of Store Loop cards before I finish working at Big Blue. Gordon. From CCTalk at catcorner.org Thu Feb 16 18:18:33 2006 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 19:18:33 -0500 Subject: Tandy Xenix disks in imagedisk format Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A337DF@mail.catcorner.org> Thanks to Dave Dunfield you can now create your own disks using Image Disk. You have to have version 1.11 of Imagedisk to write these to 5.25" HD media. see: http://www.catcorner.org/Xenix Kelly From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Feb 16 18:58:24 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 19:58:24 -0500 Subject: Anyone with an ATW800 (Transputer workstation)? In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701271AC5@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <20060217005835.TCCU17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > Forgot to mention that this is basically a problem with the host.con > file. If you go to the links I provided, it will tell you how to change > it to work off of the regular monitor. I suspect it is configured to > run X instead. You can use a regular RGB to VGA adapter which is what > most people do. Thanks for the helpfull hints. I "hot wired" an adapter for a DB-15 to a LCD panel which does RGB with sync on green, and the system came up perfectly (Nice screen full of Atari logos in the startup). Couldn't find a SHUTDOWN or HALTSYS command ('STOP' produces the encouraging message 'So far unimplimented') ... but entering ^D to the X-console causes a flurry of disk activity terminating with what "could be the sound of a head park"... and returns control to the Mega/GEM desktop on the Atari monitor - is this the correct procedure to shut down Helios? Very cool system! Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From CCTalk at catcorner.org Thu Feb 16 19:20:31 2006 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 20:20:31 -0500 Subject: Tandy Xenix disks in imagedisk format Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A337E2@mail.catcorner.org> > > Thanks to Dave Dunfield you can now create your own disks > using Image Disk. > You have to have version 1.11 of Imagedisk to write these to > 5.25" HD media. > see: http://www.catcorner.org/Xenix > > Kelly > Here I go replying to my own email again. And before anyone asks, I talk to myself too. Based on a couple of received emails, there seems to be some confusion here. My email was not announcing ImageDisk. I was announcing that the images of the Tandy Xenix disk I recently posted in catweasel/.dmk format are now available in ImageDisk's .imd format. Don't care how anyone feels about either tool, they're what I had to use. One format (imagedisk) is available to anyone on a limited budget, with minimal investment. I got mine running from parts pulled from my board storage. I actualy found two floppy controllers in my stash that could handle FM/MFM mixed formats. The other (catweasel) requires special hardware, but works well to. If there are other ways to make these images and other formats to store them in, let me know. I'll try to gather what I need to create them too wherever possible, although I don't think I could possibly install another floppy in the machine I created for making these images. Right now it has 8 floppy drives in various configurations. Watch the catcorner.org site. I also plan to image the other various Tandy model II/12/16/6000 disks I have. Here is a partial list of the software I have for these systems: Cobol, Fortran, Basic (and Xenix mBasic) 4 different versions of Xenix 2 versions of the development system a couple of CP/Ms TRS-DOS II, 4.2 and 16. Scripsit, Scripsit 2.0, Scripsit 16 Multiplan, VisiCalc, Informix, Unify the list goes on... I have ProFile, filePro and filePro 16+, but I probably won't make images of that since they're still around. At least not until I get permission. Let me know if there is anything in the list anyone needs. Kelly From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 16 19:40:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 17:40:55 -0800 Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602161740550181.114707E3@10.0.0.252> On 2/16/2006 at 6:56 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Yes, the standard mains plug over here is rated at 13A, and contains a >cartridge fuse (nromally, 3A, 5A, or 13A). Obviously PSUs with a mains >cable are fitted with such a plug which contains a fuse (even moulded-on >mains plugs [1] have a fuseholder and fuse) Are there any appliances in the UK, save for heaters, that draw 13A? From my viewpoint in the US, with 120v mains outlets, appliances are rated at less than 15A. 13A at 220v seems to me to be a huge amount of power. To be sure, we have some 240v appliances, but they're mostly stationary items, like ranges (cookers) and clothes dryers and have special (usually a large crowfoot) receptacles connected to a single distribution panel circuit. Cheers, Chuck From Tim at Rikers.org Thu Feb 16 22:20:29 2006 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 21:20:29 -0700 Subject: SGI Indyzone CDs + older SGI demos In-Reply-To: <43F47F0C.10302@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43F47F0C.10302@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43F54F0D.1090708@Rikers.org> I wonder how many ancient copies of BZFlag you'll come up with. ;-) -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Feb 16 22:49:29 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 22:49:29 -0600 Subject: SGI Indyzone CDs + older SGI demos Message-ID: <103e0664fd0a472f8e6fb8417c45ec4b@valleyimplants.com> I have the IndiZone 3 CD- Don't know what the legal status is but as they gave them away for shipping . . . Another thing that would be nice to have would be IDO 4.1 for some of the older 4D IRI. Would be nice if SGI made 5.3 (and 6.2- almost OnTopic now) available, seeing as none of the machines that will run them are currently supported by 6.5.(x>22), but it is likely that there is much 3rd party code in there, and I doubt SGI has the extra man-hours at this point to seek it out and ask for permission from all concerned. One thing I really miss from their website was the tarballs of recommended/required patchsets for old systems- 5.3, 6.2 etc. Saved a lot of time when you have an asphaltnet between you and the nearest high-speed hookup. ftp.mayn.de/pub/really_old_stuff/irix has an eclectic collection of stuff for older IRIXes. Like vmsone.net, I don't want to see this one driven off the net so if many people want to get stuff from them, we should probably try to "netpool" there- it was down for several months a while ago already with a message about excessive bandwidth use. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Feb 15 08:47:56 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:47:56 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div", To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Post In-Reply-To: <43F2C6BF.6010202@mindspring.com> References: <200602131800.k1DI04X5091506@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43F1243E.209@update.uu.se> <43F1DB16.9090908@compsys.to> <43F22CE7.7070007@mindspring.com> <43F2C6BF.6010202@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <43F33F1C.5000209@compsys.to> >Don North wrote: > >Don North wrote: > >> >Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >>> >Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >>>> >"Jerome H. Fine" wrote: >>>> > I have noticed what may be an interesting result when I use the >>>> > PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div". Since I have noticed >>>> > at least one individual who worked on the microcode for the >>>> > PDP-11, perhaps there is an explicit "Yes / No" answer to my >>>> > question: >>>> Since this actually have nothing to do with the microcode, and >>>> actually is nothing specific with the PDP-11 DIV instruction, just >>>> about anyone should be able to answer definitely. >>> >>> Jerome Fine replies: >>> I suggest that you might not be aware of the exact implementation >>> of the PDP-11 integer "Div" instruction when an overflow occurs. >> >> Please be aware there is no one "PDP-11 microcode". The internals and >> microflows of each machine are different, except for the 11/45-55 and >> 11/70 which are very closely related implementations (same basic core >> CPU). Some of the VLSI CPUs also tend to behave the same as they are >> based on the same core CPU (F11, J11, etc). >> >> How the DIV instruction behaves in boundary conditions (ie, when the >> true quotient can not be represented in 16b) can, but may not, be CPU >> specific. Some CPUs may generate the correct 16 LSB of the 32b >> quotient. Others may not. The PDP-11 programmers guide for various >> CPUs indicates that the only affect one can count on is that the 'V' >> bit is set. >> >> In practice, given the standard shift/subtract algorithms for binary >> division, it is probably the case that the 16b quotient is a true >> subset of the 32b quotient. However, there is no easy way to prove >> this without examining the microcode on each machine, or writing a >> test program and running it on each machine. >> >> SIMH implements PDP-11 DIV as: >> >> case 1: /* DIV */ >> if (!CPUO (OPT_EIS)) { >> setTRAP (TRAP_ILL); >> break; >> } >> src2 = dstreg? R[dstspec]: ReadW (GeteaW (dstspec)); >> src = (((uint32) R[srcspec]) << 16) | R[srcspec | 1]; >> if (src2 == 0) { >> N = 0; /* J11,11/70 >> compat */ >> Z = V = C = 1; /* N = 0, Z = >> 1 */ >> break; >> } >> if ((src == 020000000000) && (src2 == 0177777)) { >> V = 1; /* J11,11/70 >> compat */ >> N = Z = C = 0; /* N = Z = 0 */ >> break; >> } >> if (GET_SIGN_W (src2)) src2 = src2 | ~077777; >> if (GET_SIGN_W (R[srcspec])) src = src | ~017777777777; >> --> dst = src / src2; >> N = (dst < 0); /* N set on >> 32b result */ >> if ((dst > 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) { >> V = 1; /* J11,11/70 >> compat */ >> Z = C = 0; /* Z = C = 0 */ >> ====>> break; >> } >> --> R[srcspec] = dst & 0177777; >> --> R[srcspec | 1] = (src - (src2 * dst)) & 0177777; >> Z = GET_Z (dst); >> V = C = 0; >> break; >> >> which would appear that the 16b quotient returned is the 16 LSB of >> the correct 32b quotient. > > Actually I read the C code wrong. If overflow is detected, the > 'break;' jumps out of the code and no registers are modified. > So SIMH does NOT modify any registers if the V-bit has been set. > > I checked the 11/34 MAINDEC EIS diagnostic. For the DIV tests, the > result registers are NOT checked if the Vbit is set. > The diagnostic does not verify that the registers are unchanged; it > assumes the registers are UNDEFINED if V is set. > > I ran some simple DIV tests on a real 11/44: > > >>>s 1000 > > (Program) > > DIV Test of 'div r2,r0' > > ..R0.. ..R1.. ..R2.. ....NUM... ..DEN.. => ..R0.. ..R1.. ..R2.. NZVC > ..QUO.. ..REM.. > > 000003 000004 000003 196612. 3. => 000003 000004 000003 > 0010 3. 4. > 000000 000000 000000 0. 0. => 000000 000000 000000 > 0011 0. 0. <-- Zbit clear > 000001 000001 000000 65537. 0. => 000001 000001 000000 > 0011 1. 1. <-- Zbit clear > 000000 001000 000010 512. 8. => 000100 000000 000010 > 0000 64. 0. > 000000 001234 000021 668. 17. => 000047 000005 000021 > 0000 39. 5. > 000010 001234 005432 524956. 2842. => 000270 003754 005432 > 0000 184. 2028. > 012345 012345 054321 350557413. 22737. => 036071 051134 054321 0000 > 15417. 21084. > 012345 012345 000005 350557413. 5. => 012345 012345 000005 > 0010 5349. 5349. > 000000 040000 000002 16384. 2. => 020000 000000 000002 > 0000 8192. 0. > 000000 100000 000002 32768. 2. => 040000 000000 000002 0000 > 16384. 0. > 000001 000000 000002 65536. 2. => 100000 000000 000002 0010 > -32768. 0. <-- R0 changed, Vbit set > 000002 000000 000002 131072. 2. => 000002 000000 000002 > 0010 2. 0. > > Goodbye > > (Console) > Halted at 165146 > > and an 11/44 under the latest SIMH: > > local[625] pdp11 divtest.ini > > PDP-11 simulator V3.5-0 > > DIV Test of 'div r2,r0' > > ..R0.. ..R1.. ..R2.. ....NUM... ..DEN.. => ..R0.. ..R1.. ..R2.. NZVC > ..QUO.. ..REM.. > > 000003 000004 000003 196612. 3. => 000003 000004 000003 > 0010 3. 4. > 000000 000000 000000 0. 0. => 000000 000000 000000 > 0111 0. 0. <-- Zbit set > 000001 000001 000000 65537. 0. => 000001 000001 000000 > 0111 1. 1. <-- Zbit set > 000000 001000 000010 512. 8. => 000100 000000 000010 > 0000 64. 0. > 000000 001234 000021 668. 17. => 000047 000005 000021 > 0000 39. 5. > 000010 001234 005432 524956. 2842. => 000270 003754 005432 > 0000 184. 2028. > 012345 012345 054321 350557413. 22737. => 036071 051134 054321 0000 > 15417. 21084. > 012345 012345 000005 350557413. 5. => 012345 012345 000005 > 0010 5349. 5349. > 000000 040000 000002 16384. 2. => 020000 000000 000002 > 0000 8192. 0. > 000000 100000 000002 32768. 2. => 040000 000000 000002 0000 > 16384. 0. > 000001 000000 000002 65536. 2. => 000001 000000 000002 > 0010 1. 0. <-- R0 unchanged, Vbit set > 000002 000000 000002 131072. 2. => 000002 000000 000002 > 0010 2. 0. > > Goodbye > > HALT instruction, PC: 000010 (000012) > Goodbye > local[626] > > the interesting case is the (65536. / 2.) computation where the real > 11/44 generates the correct unsigned quotient in R0, but also sets the > Vbit. > > In most cases however it appears that if DIV overflows the quo and rem > registers are unaltered and the Vbit is set. > > SIMH and a real 11/44 (mostly) behave this way. The behavior below > found by Jerome may be an anomaly seen in E11. Jerome Fine replies: I normally attempt to delete anything from previous posts which is not essential. Here, I can't find anything that can easily be omitted from the previous record. FIRST - I want to apologize for misleading Johnny when I sort of stated that I had obtained the results by running on a PDP-11 when in fact the most recent activity was ONLY under E11. I had previously made a number of tests on a real DEC PDP-11/73 (KDJ11-AB) and found results (IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY) which seem to agree with the results on the real DEC PDP-11/44, SPECIFICALLY the second last test of 65536. / 2. => -32768. QUO / 0. REM In general, I remember that as long as the value in R0 was LESS than the divisor, then the quotient was correct even if overflow did occur. Then meant that for both values initially being positive, the quotient can be greater than 32767. which appears to be negative but which is actually an unsigned 16 bit integer. So, the best example if you can do the test again on both systems is: 196607. / 3. => 65535. QUO / 2. REM OR in OCTAL R0 = 2, R1 = 177777, R2 = 3 produces R0 = 177777, R1 = 2, R2 = 3 likely the v bit and n bit will be set, but the key point is that as long as R0 is initially LESS than the divisor in R2, then the divide operation is attempted. THEN, the full 16 bit unsigned integer result seems to appear in R0 even if the v bit is set when the QUO exceeds 32767. Right now, my system is in parts and it will take a while before I can repeat the test. Again, I apologize for misleading Johnny in respect to my recent tests under E11 where I agree that the full 32 bit result is computed and the low order 16 bits placed in R0 for the QUO before the v bit is determined. I have been in touch with John Wilson and he confirmed that this is what his code does - or at least this is what I seem to understand from his e-mail. BUT, AND THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART!!!!!!!!! Johnny agrees that my original code (please respond Johnny to this assumption whether or not I am correct or incorrect, i.e. an actual response) that my original code suggestion of first dividing R0 by itself (Mov R1,-(SP) and Mov R0,R1 and Clr R0) by the divisor is the correct method as it appears just below these lines. If anyone thinks this through, then 393215. / 3. has register values of R0 = 5, R1 = 177777, R2 = 3 should (if my brain is not still asleep) qualify using my code below (in which I use TWO divide instructions to first reduce R0 < R2), but STILL produce the v bit SET (v = 1) on the second divide which has R0 = 2, R1 = 177777, R2 = 3 as per my previous example with, of course the same results of the quotient R0 = 65535. and v = 1. I will check this ASAP on my own PDP-11/73, but not today. If Don North can check and Johnny as well, it would be appreciated. IF MY ASSUMPTIONS are correct, then I would assume that the microcode (or hardware) essentially does the same check as essentially my code below does when my code ensures that R0 is LESS than the divisor by first dividing R0 by itself by the divisor. Obviously the remainder in R1 MUST be smaller than the divisor. BUT that still allows the low order 16 bits of the quotient (when all original values are positive) to be larger than 32767. as per my example as long as all of the bits fit into 16 bits which will be the case as long as R0 is less than the divisor. If what I have just stated in the above two paragraphs is confusing, please disregard. I think my examples speak for themselves if you verify what happens on a real DEC PDP-11 system with "Div". AGAIN (ONCE MORE), then there is a HUGE (???) problem if when R0 is less than the divisor that the "Div" instruction can NOT be depended upon to produce a valid quotient in every case. My code below (which Johnny agreed would work) actually will not and I am at a loss now to figure out how to handle the calculation, although I am sure I will figure some way to get the result I require. One the other hand, if SIMH is attempting to duplicate the real DEC PDP-11 hardware, it will also NEED to note when the PDP-11/44 (and maybe other chips as well) do produce a valid 16 bit quotient even when the v bit is set so long as the upper 16 bits of the 32 bit quotient are all zero. >> >>> Please see below! >>> >>>> > If I divide 196612 by 3 - i.e. "Div (R2),R0" where R0 = 3, R1 = >>>> 4, (R2) = 3 >>>> > the result (in addition to the condition bits) is R0 = 1, R1 = 1 >>>> which is >>>> > exactly correct if the quotient is regarded as a 32 bit result >>>> with R0 being >>>> > the low order 16 bits of that result and the high order 32 bits are >>>> somewhere >>>> > else - probably inaccessible as far as programming is concerned, >>>> but easily >>>> > obtained by: >>>> > Mov R1-(SP) ; Save low order 16 bits of dividend >>>> > Mov R0,R1 ; Divide high order 16 bits >>>> > Clr R0 ; of dividend >>>> > Div (R2),R0 ; by the divisor >>>> > Mov R0,R3 ; Save high order 16 bits of quotient >>>> > Mov R1,R0 ; Divide the remainder >>>> > Mov (SP)+,R1 ; of the dividend >>>> > Div (R2),R0 ; by the divisor >>>> > i.e. R3 now contains the high order 16 bits of the 32 bit quotient >>>> > with R0 holding the low order 16 bits of the 32 bit quotient >>>> What you have implemented here, as well as described, is the exact >>>> way you should have been taught how to do division on paper in >>>> elementary school. >>>> Yes, that algorithm is valid, and can be extended to arbitrary >>>> sizes, as long as you remember the full method. >>> >>> >>> I agree that the above code is the "correct" method to ensure >>> a valid result. BUT, that is NOT what I am attempting to determine. >>> >>> Specifically, I have found that the following code also works: >>> Mov R0,R3 >>> Div (R2),R0 ; First Divide Instruction >>> Tst R1 >>> Bne Somewhere - since the quotient is not of interest when a >>> non-zero remainder >>> Mov R0,-(SP) >>> Mov R3,R1 >>> Clr R0 >>> Div (R2),R0 ; Second Divide Instruction >>> Mov (SP)+,R1 >>> At this point, R0 / R1 now contains 32 bit quotient IF the first >>> "Div" instruction places the low order 16 bits of the 32 bit >>> quotient into R0. I have found this result in practice and since >>> there is a VERY HIGH probability that the remainder is NOT >>> zero, the above code is MUCH faster. >>> >>> Again, the specific question is IF the quotient of the "Div" >>> instruction >>> is the low order 16 bits of a 32 bit quotient all of the time or just >>> when the high order 16 bits are all zero???????? >>> >>>> > Can anyone confirm what I have found in practice? >>>> Certainly. It's basic math, the way it's taught in elementary school. >>>> That was atleast the first way I was taught how do do divides on >>>> big numbers on paper. >>> >>> >>> I learned that also, but the observation is not relevant >>> to my question. >>> >>> I realize that the DEC manual description of the "Div" instruction >>> does not address the situation when the quotient exceeds 65535 >>> (decimal) or 16 bits, but again, perhaps someone who knows >>> the microcode might have an answer. >>> >>>> > Even better would be a method of retrieving the high >>>> > order 16 bits of the quotient in a manner which takes >>>> > fewer instructions and without a second divide instruction! >>>> >>>> I doubt you'll find it. >>> >>> >>> I AGREE!! It would have been "nice" though if >>> DEC knew where the value was and made that high >>> order 16 bits available via the next instruction >>> if the user needed it. That information would >>> also have exactly defined whether or not the low >>> order 16 bits of the quotient and the remainder >>> were correct all of the time. Any comments on these >>> TWO observations? >>> >>> I realize that the instruction set is long past being >>> subject to change in DEC hardware, but that does not >>> mean that an emulator could not manage to make a few >>> small but vital improvements. And certainly, at least >>> in SIMH, it is possible to examine the code to determine >>> the answer to my original question. Does anyone have >>> the code for the "Div" emulation in SIMH and what does >>> happen when the high order 16 bits of the quotient are >>> non-zero? >> I left the rest of the post by Don North intact since it contains the code I suggested the first time AND the second time. ALSO, thank you Don for the actual tests on both systems. It would seem that although E11 does set the v bit when there is an overflow, the low order 16 bits of the quotient are calculated FIRST and placed into R0 even if the high order 16 bits of the quotient are non-zero. I am not sure if John Wilson will "correct" this on future versions of E11, i.e. make the actual results conform with the DEC hardware, but I guess I should NOT depend on the current situation. My code is MUCH faster at this point, but better to be safe than have it break later when I don't expect the current E11 code to be changed to the "correct" results which agree with real DEC hardware. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jdoyle7 at gmail.com Wed Feb 15 10:56:01 2006 From: jdoyle7 at gmail.com (John Doyle) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:56:01 -0500 Subject: DEMSA-AA Emulator Message-ID: <99fe082b0602150856w28fb1e4asc214b8ac7eeb6fd6@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone know where a software emulator or a hardware replacement for a DEC DEMSA AA can be found? Thanks John From sanyo.hs at ix.netcom.com Wed Feb 15 13:28:31 2006 From: sanyo.hs at ix.netcom.com (Howard Sussman) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 14:28:31 -0500 Subject: Free PDP Memory/BA11/Modem Manuals Message-ID: <43F380DF.6010409@ix.netcom.com> Hi, Do you still have a copy of the Mostek MK8015 manual ? Howard From info at museum-of-computing.org.uk Wed Feb 15 17:56:34 2006 From: info at museum-of-computing.org.uk (Simon Webb) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:56:34 -0000 Subject: Museum of Computing Calculator Exhibition Message-ID: The Museum of Computing is delighted to announce that Sir Clive Sinclair will be guest of honour at the launch party for the Museums' latest exhibition. 'CALCULATOR' from the Abacus to the Microchip opens to the public from 7th March 2006 and will feature over 100 exhibits, tracing the history of the incredible devices man has built to aid his mathematical manipulations. The undoubted star of the show is the stunning gold plated Sinclair Sovereign, once described as the worlds most beautiful calculator. The exhibition will run for six months, admission is free. For more information www.museum-of-computing.org.uk Simon Webb, Curator Museum of Computing From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Feb 15 18:14:52 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 19:14:52 -0500 Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? In-Reply-To: <200602152357.k1FNvS8L018704@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060215191039.04877118@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Brad Parker may have mentioned these words: >"Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > >Someone just contacts me off-list with a place that may help, here is > >one set I'm looking to reproduce: > > > >http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/8BITS/1200xl/s-16/s-16-proto_PCB_Rev > X8A.j > >pg > >Oh, I was *afraid* you where going there :-) that sure looks like a >coin-op game to me! With the 9-pin joystick ports on the lefthand side, I'd say that it was an Atari home machine. [[ If I had to deduce any info from the URL, I'd think maybe it was an Atari 1200XL 8-bit machine. ]] >but what the heck are those 5 big Hershey bars? CPU / UART / etc... looks pretty normal for a home-machine SBC. >i can't tell from that photo, but it looks like there might be enough >logic for some line ram and counters, maybe a cpu but I don't see any >stacks of eproms for stamps or background. You must be used to them Socket 939 thingies, and forget that CPUs used to have 40-pins... ;-) ;-) >what ever it is the graphics can't be too magical. *having* graphics was magical, back in the day... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 15 19:23:35 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:23:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: do floppy drives need a switching p/s? Message-ID: <20060216012335.87648.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> I'm guessing so. Am wondering if the 1.67 amp 24 vdc regulated wall warts from BGMicro are sufficient to power an 8" floppy drive (NEC FD1165-A). Needs 24 vdc @ 18 watts. Would love to devise a circuit to get the 5 vdc (@ 5 watts) off the same brick, but that may be asking too much ;). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From graham.h at microtech-electronics.co.uk Thu Feb 16 07:02:02 2006 From: graham.h at microtech-electronics.co.uk (Graham Harvey) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:02:02 -0000 Subject: identify this ISA card? Message-ID: <000601c632f9$3200da40$0700a8c0@geharvey.freeonline.co.uk> Hello, I've just seen your post about an ISA card. I know it was posted in 2003 but there were no replies. The card is possibly a BMS (Building Management System) controller card. It is installed in a PC and runs an operating system called OS9. It then communicates with a BMS outstation via an RS244 interface. I hope this information will be of some use to you. Best regards, Graham Harvey -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.8/260 - Release Date: 14/02/2006 From j.e.vandergeest at zonnet.nl Thu Feb 16 11:12:37 2006 From: j.e.vandergeest at zonnet.nl (j.e. van der Geest) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:12:37 +0100 Subject: Kaypro 10 Western Digital Hard Disk Controller WD 1002-HD0 Message-ID: <000501c6331c$2feb52d0$0300000a@AMD> Any schematic available for the WD 1002-HD0 Need them badly Jos From sanyo.hs at ix.netcom.com Thu Feb 16 17:38:05 2006 From: sanyo.hs at ix.netcom.com (Howard Sussman) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 18:38:05 -0500 Subject: PDP Memory/BA11/Modem Manuals In-Reply-To: <43F380DF.6010409@ix.netcom.com> References: <43F380DF.6010409@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <43F50CDD.7050801@ix.netcom.com> Hi, Do you still have the xerox copy of the Mostek MK8015 manual ? I would like to purchase a copy. Thanks, Howard cell 508 353-7900 From cctech at porky.vax-11.org Thu Feb 16 17:54:47 2006 From: cctech at porky.vax-11.org (cctech at porky.vax-11.org) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:54:47 -0700 (MST) Subject: TRS-80 in Boulder, CO In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060216142226.05856af8@mail> References: <43F47F0C.10302@yahoo.co.uk> <6.2.3.4.2.20060216142226.05856af8@mail> Message-ID: I've been dumpster diving again, and found a TRS-80 model 4 (128K? ram, 2 5.25 drives). Unknown condition, if someone is interested I probably could be convinced to do some simple checking. Anybody want it? 10$ (packing material) + shipping. Preference given to local pickup within 1 week (or so). Regards, Clint From aggressive_mimicry at yahoo.com Thu Feb 16 23:12:43 2006 From: aggressive_mimicry at yahoo.com (alan dalbol) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 21:12:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore SX 64 for sale Message-ID: <20060217051243.75966.qmail@web32512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Wondering If your SX 64 was still for sale Thanks Al __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 17 02:14:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:14:34 -0800 Subject: do floppy drives need a switching p/s? In-Reply-To: <20060216012335.87648.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060216012335.87648.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200602170014340663.12AF6CF3@10.0.0.252> On 2/15/2006 at 5:23 PM Chris M wrote: >I'm guessing so. Am wondering if the 1.67 amp 24 vdc >regulated wall warts from BGMicro are sufficient to >power an 8" floppy drive (NEC FD1165-A). Needs 24 vdc >@ 18 watts. Would love to devise a circuit to get the >5 vdc (@ 5 watts) off the same brick, but that may be >asking too much ;). One of mine doesn't--just uses a transformer with 2 secondaries and a small rectifier/filter/regulator PC tucked into the case in about 2" of speace behind the drive. Works fine on a Qume DT-8. That 24vdc supply you mention should do just fine, but the 5vdc draw may be heavier than you think, particularly if you have the standard 220/330 terminators installed. Cheers, Chuck From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 02:43:31 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 03:43:31 -0500 Subject: MSCP SCSI cdrom behavior Message-ID: Greeting, May I ask how an MSCP SCSI controller behaves when a CDROM drive is connected to it? When there is no CD in the drive, what does "show dev" console command show? Can I take out the CD when an OS is running? Can I take out the CD after I unmount it from the file system? My controller treats a CDROM drive as a read-only HD now. Please let me know how other controllers deal with the CDROM drive. Thank you. vax, 9000 From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Feb 17 02:50:12 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 00:50:12 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div" In-Reply-To: <43F33F1C.5000209@compsys.to> References: <200602131800.k1DI04X5091506@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43F1243E.209@update.uu.se> <43F1DB16.9090908@compsys.to> <43F22CE7.7070007@mindspring.com> <43F2C6BF.6010202@mindspring.com> <43F33F1C.5000209@compsys.to> Message-ID: <43F58E44.6000209@mindspring.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I normally attempt to delete anything from previous posts which is > not essential. Here, I can't find anything that can easily be omitted > from > the previous record. > > FIRST - I want to apologize for misleading Johnny when I sort of stated > that I had obtained the results by running on a PDP-11 when in fact the > most recent activity was ONLY under E11. I had previously made a > number of tests on a real DEC PDP-11/73 (KDJ11-AB) and found > results (IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY) which seem to agree > with the results on the real DEC PDP-11/44, SPECIFICALLY the > second last test of 65536. / 2. => -32768. QUO / 0. REM > > In general, I remember that as long as the value in R0 was LESS > than the divisor, then the quotient was correct even if overflow did > occur. Then meant that for both values initially being positive, the > quotient can be greater than 32767. which appears to be negative > but which is actually an unsigned 16 bit integer. So, the best example > if you can do the test again on both systems is: > > 196607. / 3. => 65535. QUO / 2. REM OR in OCTAL > R0 = 2, R1 = 177777, R2 = 3 produces R0 = 177777, R1 = 2, R2 = 3 > likely the v bit and n bit will be set, but the key point is that as long > as R0 is initially LESS than the divisor in R2, then the divide operation > is attempted. THEN, the full 16 bit unsigned integer result seems to > appear in R0 even if the v bit is set when the QUO exceeds 32767. I added the suggested test case 196607./3. to the DIV test, and here are the results from both SIMH and the 11/44. The suggested behavior above does not hold true. In both instances for this test case (the second lines) the result registers are unchanged, and the V-bit is set. The quotient result is not the low 16b of the 32b quotient, but is the source register unaltered. Don North Here's the result from SIMH: local[516] pdp11 divtest.ini PDP-11 simulator V3.5-0 DIV Test of 'div r2,r0' ..R0.. ..R1.. ..R2.. ....NUM... ..DEN.. => ..R0.. ..R1.. ..R2.. NZVC ..QUO.. ..REM.. 000003 000004 000003 196612. 3. => 000003 000004 000003 0010 3. 4. 000002 177777 000003 196607. 3. => 000002 177777 000003 0010 2. -1. <--- 000000 000000 000000 0. 0. => 000000 000000 000000 0111 0. 0. 000001 000001 000000 65537. 0. => 000001 000001 000000 0111 1. 1. 000000 001000 000010 512. 8. => 000100 000000 000010 0000 64. 0. 000000 001234 000021 668. 17. => 000047 000005 000021 0000 39. 5. 000010 001234 005432 524956. 2842. => 000270 003754 005432 0000 184. 2028. 012345 012345 054321 350557413. 22737. => 036071 051134 054321 0000 15417. 21084. 012345 012345 000005 350557413. 5. => 012345 012345 000005 0010 5349. 5349. 000000 040000 000002 16384. 2. => 020000 000000 000002 0000 8192. 0. 000000 100000 000002 32768. 2. => 040000 000000 000002 0000 16384. 0. 000001 000000 000002 65536. 2. => 000001 000000 000002 0010 1. 0. 000002 000000 000002 131072. 2. => 000002 000000 000002 0010 2. 0. Goodbye HALT instruction, PC: 000010 (000012) Goodbye local[517] and here's the result from a real PDP-11/44: >>s 1000 (Program) DIV Test of 'div r2,r0' ..R0.. ..R1.. ..R2.. ....NUM... ..DEN.. => ..R0.. ..R1.. ..R2.. NZVC ..QUO.. ..REM.. 000003 000004 000003 196612. 3. => 000003 000004 000003 0010 3. 4. 000002 177777 000003 196607. 3. => 000002 177777 000003 0010 2. -1. <--- 000000 000000 000000 0. 0. => 000000 000000 000000 0011 0. 0. 000001 000001 000000 65537. 0. => 000001 000001 000000 0011 1. 1. 000000 001000 000010 512. 8. => 000100 000000 000010 0000 64. 0. 000000 001234 000021 668. 17. => 000047 000005 000021 0000 39. 5. 000010 001234 005432 524956. 2842. => 000270 003754 005432 0000 184. 2028. 012345 012345 054321 350557413. 22737. => 036071 051134 054321 0000 15417. 21084. 012345 012345 000005 350557413. 5. => 012345 012345 000005 0010 5349. 5349. 000000 040000 000002 16384. 2. => 020000 000000 000002 0000 8192. 0. 000000 100000 000002 32768. 2. => 040000 000000 000002 0000 16384. 0. 000001 000000 000002 65536. 2. => 100000 000000 000002 0010 -32768. 0. 000002 000000 000002 131072. 2. => 000002 000000 000002 0010 2. 0. Goodbye (Console) Halted at 165146 From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Feb 17 06:04:46 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:04:46 -0500 Subject: DEMSA-AA Emulator In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 15 Feb 2006 11:56:01 EST." <99fe082b0602150856w28fb1e4asc214b8ac7eeb6fd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200602171204.k1HC4kwc027507@mwave.heeltoe.com> John Doyle wrote: >Does anyone know where a software emulator or a hardware replacement for a >DEC DEMSA AA can be found? I don't, sorry. I'm curious what the application is, however. X.25 or SNA gateway? certainly someone custom could be created, but the cost would probably be far too high. some of my customers make small sync devices using PowerPC 823/850's running linux. works well for 2 sync ports, maybe 3. -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting +1-781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Feb 17 06:08:33 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:08:33 -0500 Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 15 Feb 2006 19:14:52 EST." <5.1.0.14.2.20060215191039.04877118@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200602171208.k1HC8XZL027665@mwave.heeltoe.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: ... >CPU / UART / etc... looks pretty normal for a home-machine SBC. > >>i can't tell from that photo, but it looks like there might be enough >>logic for some line ram and counters, maybe a cpu but I don't see any >>stacks of eproms for stamps or background. > >You must be used to them Socket 939 thingies, and forget that CPUs used to >have 40-pins... ;-) ;-) Sorry, I was thinking coin-op game, not home computer. Very different. I don't have much experience with home computers. Most atari coin-op games have fairly obvious graphics hardware, either raster or vector, which is separate from the cpu... and an occasional pokey or two for sound :-) -brad From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Feb 17 07:35:37 2006 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 13:35:37 +0000 Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: <200602161740550181.114707E3@10.0.0.252> References: <200602161740550181.114707E3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43F5D129.9030207@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2/16/2006 at 6:56 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > >> Yes, the standard mains plug over here is rated at 13A, and contains a >> cartridge fuse (nromally, 3A, 5A, or 13A). Obviously PSUs with a mains >> cable are fitted with such a plug which contains a fuse (even moulded-on >> mains plugs [1] have a fuseholder and fuse) > > Are there any appliances in the UK, save for heaters, that draw 13A? From (Looks around) Single phase welders, plasma cutters, some water boilers, some washing machines and tumble driers... > my viewpoint in the US, with 120v mains outlets, appliances are rated at > less than 15A. 13A at 220v seems to me to be a huge amount of power. To > be sure, we have some 240v appliances, but they're mostly stationary items, > like ranges (cookers) and clothes dryers and have special (usually a large > crowfoot) receptacles connected to a single distribution panel circuit. Electric cookers tend to be wired to a special 30A circuit, and are permanently installed. Same for immersion heaters and certain panel heaters, but they're not really considered to be appliances in the same way (you wouldn't remove it when you move house). Everything else just plugs in. Gordon. From marvin at rain.org Fri Feb 17 08:43:34 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 06:43:34 -0800 Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? Message-ID: <43F5E116.927832E8@rain.org> I just looked at the picture, and it appears to be of a standard printed circuit padmaster type layout. These typically had a single sheet with all the pads, another sheet with the component traces, another sheet with the non-component traces, and another with the silkscreen layer. Pins are used to align the sheets when doing the layout (and photo reductions.) The padmaster is laid out first, and then the other sheets are done with the padmaster on the bottom. The usual way of making the soldermask artwork was a bit more involved. A "picture" of the holes in the drilled board was overlayed with 1:1 photo positive of the padmaster (to block out the holes in the pads) and the resulting "picture" was made into a negative which was then blown up photographically by the amount needed by the PC house large enough (usually about 0.005" - 0.010") so the soldermask wouldn't bleed onto the pads when it was silkscreened onto the board. Yes, dry film solder mask could have been used with a smaller enlargement, but it was not generally used on high volume production boards (too pricy.) Also, the adhesive on the tape tends to dry out/become brittle with time, so I would be *very* careful in handling these layouts. Any engineering photolab can reduce them to 1:1 positives and negatives. When you find a PC shop to manufacture the boards, they should also have the contacts to get them reduced. Again, unless you have the drill drawing, you will need to make one. *Usually*, different pad sizes were used for the different size holes. Double check the final artwork to make sure that a piece of tape didn't fall off the original artwork. It will usually be "obvious" since there will be either pads with nothing attached, or traces that just end. FYI, another way of laying out boards was to use red and blue tape with black hole pads. One color was used for the component side traces, and the other color was used for the non-component side traces. The artwork would then be done by using filters to create the photo artwork. > Someone just contacts me off-list with a place that may help, here is > one set I'm looking to reproduce: > > http://www.atarimuseum.com/computers/8BITS/1200xl/s-16/s-16-proto_PCB_RevX8A.jpg > > Curt From RMeenaks at olf.com Fri Feb 17 09:32:06 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 10:32:06 -0500 Subject: Anyone with an ATW800 (Transputer workstation)? Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701271BAC@cpexchange.olf.com> I am VERY VERY JEALOUS! I really wanted one myself but could never find one :-( So, I decided to rig my own using off the shelf transputer TRAMS... The blue book should tell you what the commands are (again on my website). Did you download the latest version of Helios? Also, the set of commands can be found by looking at: http://web.archive.org/web/19970725072307/www.perihelion.co.uk/helios/he lp/General/RebootingHelios.html You should be able to terminate the system from the server that is running... Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Dunfield > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 7:58 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Anyone with an ATW800 (Transputer workstation)? > > > > Forgot to mention that this is basically a problem with the > host.con > > file. If you go to the links I provided, it will tell you how to > > change it to work off of the regular monitor. I suspect it is > > configured to run X instead. You can use a regular RGB to > VGA adapter > > which is what most people do. > > Thanks for the helpfull hints. > > I "hot wired" an adapter for a DB-15 to a LCD panel which > does RGB with sync on green, and the system came up perfectly > (Nice screen full of Atari logos in the startup). > > Couldn't find a SHUTDOWN or HALTSYS command ('STOP' produces > the encouraging message 'So far unimplimented') ... but > entering ^D to the X-console causes a flurry of disk activity > terminating with what "could be the sound of a head park"... > and returns control to the Mega/GEM desktop on the Atari > monitor - is this the correct procedure to shut down Helios? > > Very cool system! > > Regards, > Dave > > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Feb 17 09:42:01 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 07:42:01 -0800 Subject: MSCP SCSI cdrom behavior In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:43 AM -0500 2/17/06, 9000 VAX wrote: >Greeting, > May I ask how an MSCP SCSI controller behaves when a CDROM drive is >connected to it? When there is no CD in the drive, what does "show >dev" console command show? Can I take out the CD when an OS is >running? Can I take out the CD after I unmount it from the file >system? > > My controller treats a CDROM drive as a read-only HD now. Please let >me know how other controllers deal with the CDROM drive. Thank you. Good question. One thing to remember is that a lot of Q-Bus MSCP SCSI controllers won't even talk to CD-ROM's, and if they will you have to find one that will talk ot it. I've had good luck with Plextor caddie drives, and an RDD-42, but I've another drive that works fine on my Alpha's that won't work with my Q-Bus controller. I only use my SCSI (Unibus or Q-Bus) on PDP-11's, so I don't have the "SHOW DEV" option. Having said that, as I recall, they show up as a Read-Only HD. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Feb 17 10:27:52 2006 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 11:27:52 -0500 Subject: Anyone with an ATW800 (Transputer workstation)? In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701271BAC@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <20060217162802.KGNF17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Hi Ram, > I am VERY VERY JEALOUS! I really wanted one myself but could never find > one :-( I just "lucked into it" - The original owner had given it to a museum, however when they closed they returned it to him due to it's unique nature. He wanted to put it somewhere where it would be preserved and found me! As fortune would have it, we in the same province (about 6 hours away). The history the owner gave me might make you cry however. He was working for a company in Toronto who had about 20 of them shipped over from Germany and either never used them, or used them only for a short while. They were all stacked up in a storeroom for "years" and someone decided it was time to clean out "all that junk" - He snagged one, but he's pretty sure that most or all of the others got landfilled. - The one I got is "like new", and in it's original shipping box ... I expect the others were the same :-( > The blue book should tell you what the commands are (again on my > website). Did you download the latest version of Helios? Also, the > set of commands can be found by looking at: > > http://web.archive.org/web/19970725072307/www.perihelion.co.uk/helios/he > lp/General/RebootingHelios.html Thanks - I guess it just looked so "unixey" that I expected a shutdown command. I've grabbed most of the docs, and I will be going through them in detail. So far I have NOT replaced the original OS. The distribution disks say version 1.1, IIRC I saw a version 1.17 somewhere on the screen but I wasn't taking notes at the time (just trying to get it to come up). Next time I fire it up I will record the details of what is there. The file structure looked pretty clean (like a system that hadn't seen much use at all) - pretty much just basic system utilities etc. I will at some point try the Helios 1.3 that you have posted, however I don't want to wipe the original drive, so I'm going to dig around and see if I can find a compatible hard drive. Thanks again - you may not have heard the last of me ... Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Feb 17 10:34:22 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:34:22 -0800 Subject: SGI Indyzone CDs + older SGI demos In-Reply-To: <103e0664fd0a472f8e6fb8417c45ec4b@valleyimplants.com> References: <103e0664fd0a472f8e6fb8417c45ec4b@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200602170834.22503.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 16 February 2006 20:49, compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > I have the IndiZone 3 CD- Don't know what the legal status is but as they > gave them away for shipping . . . Another thing that would be nice to have > would be IDO 4.1 for some of the older 4D IRI. Would be nice if SGI made > 5.3 (and 6.2- almost OnTopic now) available, seeing as none of the machines > that will run them are currently supported by 6.5.(x>22), but it is likely > that there is much 3rd party code in there, and I doubt SGI has the extra > man-hours at this point to seek it out and ask for permission from all > concerned. As soon as I get out from under a bunch of "real business" work, I'll check with SGI on this matter. I have still have a few good connections internally at SGI, so it's at least worth a shot. > One thing I really miss from their website was the tarballs of > recommended/required patchsets for old systems- 5.3, 6.2 etc. Saved a lot > of time when you have an asphaltnet between you and the nearest high-speed > hookup. ftp.mayn.de/pub/really_old_stuff/irix has an eclectic collection of > stuff for older IRIXes. Like vmsone.net, I don't want to see this one > driven off the net so if many people want to get stuff from them, we should > probably try to "netpool" there- it was down for several months a while ago > already with a message about excessive bandwidth use. I have just about everything that SGI ever had on their website - including the final complete patch sets for IRIX 5.3 and 6.2. I also have install media, some/many original patch kits for 5.3/6.2, and many of 6.5, etc. - also scads of demo software. I also have the entire former "haeberli directory" and the Developers Toolbox for 6.2 and 6.5. I love to be able to make this stuff legally available... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jhoger at pobox.com Fri Feb 17 10:51:46 2006 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 08:51:46 -0800 Subject: Help with HP 4951B protocol analyzer + 18179A Message-ID: <1140195106.29397.290.camel@aragorn> Anybody know much about this device or have a manual? I bought it for $10 off ebay to test serial comm protocols on some of my vintage projects. It works with some caveats: a) If it's off (but plugged in) it loses its memory. Is there a backup battery inside that can be replaced? b) The tape drive may or may not work. Not sure I'll ever really need it. What kind of tapes does it use, and can they be acquired c) I'd be interested to know what the switches on the 18179A do. d) What can I hook the external video interface to? Thanks, -- John. From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Fri Feb 17 11:04:37 2006 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:04:37 -0500 Subject: Help with HP 4951B protocol analyzer + 18179A Message-ID: John: I own a 4952+18179, which is very similar. The manual might be available from www.yourmanualsoure.com I rented the manual for the 4952A from them for $25 for one week. Answers as follows: (a) I believe you can save the data to the tape drive. My version has the "02 option" which is a memory board which contains about 700k of RAM and 128k of battery-backed NVRAM. Your unit may or may not have that option. (b) My unit has a floppy drive, but I recall reading that the tape drive uses standard QIC tapes (don't recall the type, DC60 or DC100 I think). They should be available from various sources including eBay. (c) The vertical row of switches on the 18179 enables you to pass through or isolate various RS232 signals from the analyzer. The horizontal row of 25 switches and patch cable holes enable you to concoct various wiring schemes. (d) I believe that you can connect the video to any standard composite monitor and it will show whatever is on the internal screen. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John R. Hogerhuis Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 11:52 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Help with HP 4951B protocol analyzer + 18179A Anybody know much about this device or have a manual? I bought it for $10 off ebay to test serial comm protocols on some of my vintage projects. It works with some caveats: a) If it's off (but plugged in) it loses its memory. Is there a backup battery inside that can be replaced? b) The tape drive may or may not work. Not sure I'll ever really need it. What kind of tapes does it use, and can they be acquired c) I'd be interested to know what the switches on the 18179A do. d) What can I hook the external video interface to? Thanks, -- John. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Feb 17 11:41:36 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 11:41:36 -0600 Subject: SGI Indyzone CDs + older SGI demos In-Reply-To: <200602170834.22503.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <103e0664fd0a472f8e6fb8417c45ec4b@valleyimplants.com> <200602170834.22503.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060217113531.057488b0@mail> At 10:34 AM 2/17/2006, Lyle Bickley wrote: >also scads of demo software. I also have the entire former "haeberli >directory" and the Developers Toolbox for 6.2 and 6.5. >I love to be able to make this stuff legally available... Better hurry up while SGI is still a company. :-) Apropos Paul Haeberli, it looks like he's moved back to Madison, WI and has a company http://laminadesign.com/index.html . Twenty years ago at UW-Madison, he used the Terak computers that I collect. He developed a graphics library called Weaselgraphics that was used by students and users of the Terak. He was a friend of a few friends, although I didn't meet him until post-college. - John From rtellason at blazenet.net Fri Feb 17 11:50:22 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:50:22 -0500 Subject: token ring cards Message-ID: <200602171250.22045.rtellason@blazenet.net> Got a couple of token ring cards laying around, can any of you guys use them? Feel free to contact me off-list if so. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From fireflyst at earthlink.net Fri Feb 17 12:07:48 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 12:07:48 -0600 Subject: MSCP SCSI cdrom behavior In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On my UC07, you can define the drive as removable. I really don't know what this does. I'll have to try it. I was going to install a CD-ROM on my PDP11 anyway. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 9000 VAX > Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 2:44 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: MSCP SCSI cdrom behavior > > Greeting, > May I ask how an MSCP SCSI controller behaves when a CDROM > drive is connected to it? When there is no CD in the drive, > what does "show dev" console command show? Can I take out the > CD when an OS is running? Can I take out the CD after I > unmount it from the file system? > > My controller treats a CDROM drive as a read-only HD now. > Please let me know how other controllers deal with the CDROM > drive. Thank you. > > vax, 9000 > > From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Feb 17 12:18:18 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 18:18:18 -0000 Subject: GHOST Graphics Message-ID: <002e01c633ee$8741b060$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Greetings While at college, I remember using a package called GHOST Graphics, which, in our case, was called from PASCAL programs that we wrote, in one case plotting a 3D surface which was output on Tektronix Graphic Terminals. The system we had has was a VAX cluster, and normal editing, compilation etc was done at a VT100 (we only had about 20 Tek terminals, for around 1500 engineering students - I've been there at 6.30 AM just to get time on the graphics terminals). I suspect that the software was running under VMS, and I vaguely remember using the standard editor to produce reports for assignments. Has anyone else used this package, or better still, have a copy? I'd like to be able to demonstrate this on my uVAX (if it will run the package) I still have the user manual somewhere (college produced and bound manual). Many thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Feb 17 12:56:50 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 13:56:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? Message-ID: <20060217185650.D8747580DD@mail.wordstock.com> Hello, Does anyone know of a Sound Blaster compatible *PCI* card that works under DOS? I have searched Creative Labs website and it looks like their PCI 64 / 128 sound cards will not work under DOS since there are no DOS driver available. :( Thanks, Bryan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Feb 17 13:20:46 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 11:20:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: do floppy drives need a switching p/s? Message-ID: <200602171920.LAA31356@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi Most 8 inch drives were originally run from linear supplies not switchers. It sounds like the supply you have is big enough to handle the 24 volt load but as I recall, there was often a surge spec along with the continuous load value. It is unlikely that you could get the additional 5V at 5W from the same supply. The transformer is most likely sized for that application. It would actually be easier to use a 5 volt supply and add some turns to the transformer to deliver the 24 volt output. Many switchers regulate the 5 volts by adjusting the power to the transformer. By just putting a few turns on the transformer and a rectifier/filter, you would have good enough regulation to supply the 24V to a drive. You'd just need a little experimenting with the number of turns to add. Dwight >From: "Chris M" > >I'm guessing so. Am wondering if the 1.67 amp 24 vdc >regulated wall warts from BGMicro are sufficient to >power an 8" floppy drive (NEC FD1165-A). Needs 24 vdc >@ 18 watts. Would love to devise a circuit to get the >5 vdc (@ 5 watts) off the same brick, but that may be >asking too much ;). > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 17 13:45:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 11:45:34 -0800 Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: <20060217185650.D8747580DD@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060217185650.D8747580DD@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200602171145340274.15280C93@10.0.0.252> On 2/17/2006 at 1:56 PM bpope at wordstock.com wrote: > Does anyone know of a Sound Blaster compatible *PCI* card that >works under DOS? I have searched Creative Labs website and it looks >like their PCI 64 / 128 sound cards will not work under DOS since there >are no DOS driver available. :( I believe that the SBLive PCI has full legacy SB support in rel DOS mode. At least that's what everyone claims. The PC 128 uses emulation for SB support and I've heard that it is very twitchy in real mode DOS. Cheers, Chuck From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Feb 17 13:55:34 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 14:55:34 -0500 Subject: KDF11-BA (M8189) 11/23+ CPU boot an ST225 on an RQDX3? Message-ID: <8D65D8B0-9D8B-4DA3-8766-2848F2FD1B6B@xlisper.com> I just picked up a couple of KDF11-BA CPU modules. For some reason, I thought I remembered that the 11/23+ could boot an MFM drive (ST225) attached to an RQDX3 controller but it doesn't look like that from the description of the boot options on the M8189 module. Is there an alternate boot ROM that can be installed or am I just out of luck? From oldcomp at cox.net Fri Feb 17 15:25:11 2006 From: oldcomp at cox.net (Bryan K. Blackburn) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 14:25:11 -0700 Subject: do floppy drives need a switching p/s? In-Reply-To: <20060216012335.87648.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060216012335.87648.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43F63F37.801@cox.net> Basically: 1.67 Amps X 24 Volts = 40 Watts. (I*E=P) 40 Watts - 18 Watts = 22 Watts of remaining capacity. You need 5 Volts at 5 Watts, which is the same as 5 Volts at 1 Amp. A series pass regulator delivering 5 Volts at 1 Amp from a 24 volt source will waste 19 Watts of heat. (24V - 5V = 19V; 19V X 1 Amp = 19 Watts) 19 Watts + 5 Watts = 24 Watts required. Not Quite enough! Your rated power requirements may be absolute maximums. Your drive may actually use less than rated, so it *could* work, but a separate supply would be best. -Bryan Chris M wrote: > I'm guessing so. Am wondering if the 1.67 amp 24 vdc > regulated wall warts from BGMicro are sufficient to > power an 8" floppy drive (NEC FD1165-A). Needs 24 vdc > @ 18 watts. Would love to devise a circuit to get the > 5 vdc (@ 5 watts) off the same brick, but that may be > asking too much ;). From jhoger at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 16:12:37 2006 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John Hogerhuis) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 14:12:37 -0800 Subject: Help with HP 4951B protocol analyzer + 18179A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/17/06, Cini, Richard wrote: > > John: > > I own a 4952+18179, which is very similar. The manual might be available > from www.yourmanualsoure.com I rented the manual for the 4952A from them > for > $25 for one week. > > Answers as follows: > > (a) I believe you can save the data to the tape drive. My version has the > "02 option" which is a memory board which contains about 700k of RAM and > 128k of battery-backed NVRAM. Your unit may or may not have that option. > > (b) My unit has a floppy drive, but I recall reading that the tape drive > uses standard QIC tapes (don't recall the type, DC60 or DC100 I think). > They > should be available from various sources including eBay. > > (c) The vertical row of switches on the 18179 enables you to pass through > or > isolate various RS232 signals from the analyzer. The horizontal row of 25 > switches and patch cable holes enable you to concoct various wiring > schemes. > > (d) I believe that you can connect the video to any standard composite > monitor and it will show whatever is on the internal screen. My unit has a BNC type connector (think that's what it's called) on it. Most composite monitors take RCA cables. Should I be able to find the right cable off-the-shelf? Rich > > Thank you! -- John. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Feb 17 16:37:29 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:37:29 GMT Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? In-Reply-To: <200602171208.k1HC8XZL027665@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200602171208.k1HC8XZL027665@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <2dbad0fa4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <200602171208.k1HC8XZL027665 at mwave.heeltoe.com> Brad Parker wrote: > Sorry, I was thinking coin-op game, not home computer. Very different. > I don't have much experience with home computers. I've always wanted to get an arcade game or two, but I doubt I could find room for it. Asteroids is still my favourite (a bit before my time, but still pretty addictive). > Most atari coin-op games have fairly obvious graphics hardware, either > raster or vector, which is separate from the cpu... and an occasional > pokey or two for sound :-) Ah, the Atari DVG. Good fun to reverse-engineer, even more fun to implement on a CPLD. One of these days I'll see about building up a DVG-on-a-PCB and maybe wire it up to my homebrew 6502 computer. I ended up reverse-engineering the DVG from the state tables and schematics, then wrote a little PDF that explained some of the more unusual parts of the DVG. I've got a Verilog model that works *in theory* but needs hardware testing. 99% of the trouble is designing a suitable PCB and a GAL to do the address decoding... If anyone wants to take a look at my DVG model, let me know and I'll tar it up and stick it online somewhere. Oh, and I've also got a nifty little homebrew CRT vector display based on a DG7/32. I have absolutely no idea what its maximum bandwidth is - I really need to build a dual-channel signal generator and do some tests... Speaking of which, I need some Molex "KK" 0.1" PCB connectors (cable headers and PCB headers). Anyone know of a cheap source of them? I'm after ten pairs of 3-way, two pairs of 6-way, two pairs of 2-way and a pair of 12-way. Thanks. -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G ... SYSTEM ERROR: press F13 to continue... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 17 16:34:33 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:34:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: do floppy drives need a switching p/s? In-Reply-To: <20060216012335.87648.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 15, 6 05:23:35 pm Message-ID: > > I'm guessing so. Am wondering if the 1.67 amp 24 vdc Nothing _needs_ a switch-mode PSU. All a disk drive needs is the right voltages, at sufficient current, and with low ripple/noise. I've been working on an Epson drive recently, and have been using an RS-branded drive exerciser. The manual for that says that swtiching supplies might put noise on the supply lines, and that it's often easier to see the alignment patterns if you use a linear supply. There have been plenty of disk drive units that use linear supplies. > regulated wall warts from BGMicro are sufficient to > power an 8" floppy drive (NEC FD1165-A). Needs 24 vdc > @ 18 watts. Would love to devise a circuit to get the > 5 vdc (@ 5 watts) off the same brick, but that may be > asking too much ;). 24V at 18W is 0.75A. 5V at 5W is 1A. Since your PSU can only supply a total of 1.67A, less than the sum of those 2 currents, you would need to design a switching regulator for the 5V supply. A linear regulator cannot give out more current than it draws from the input supply. One other thing to be wary of. Those power ratings might be the average power when in operation. Many drives take a much higher peak current to start the spindle motor (an 8" drive might have a mains motor, though) or load the head, or... You do not want the supply to drop momentarily when this hapepns, it will cause all sorts of problems. Personally (based on too many problems with wall warts), I'd design the whole PSU from scratch. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 17 16:44:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:44:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: <200602161740550181.114707E3@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 16, 6 05:40:55 pm Message-ID: > > On 2/16/2006 at 6:56 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >Yes, the standard mains plug over here is rated at 13A, and contains a > >cartridge fuse (nromally, 3A, 5A, or 13A). Obviously PSUs with a mains > >cable are fitted with such a plug which contains a fuse (even moulded-on > >mains plugs [1] have a fuseholder and fuse) > > Are there any appliances in the UK, save for heaters, that draw 13A? From A medium-sized PDP11 system :-) More seriously, the main high-power appliances are all based on heating elements. 3kW portable electric heaters are common (both radiant elements and fan-assisted ones). Electric kettles tend to be about 2.5kW (so around 10A) > my viewpoint in the US, with 120v mains outlets, appliances are rated at > less than 15A. 13A at 220v seems to me to be a huge amount of power. To What's a typical rating for an electric kettle? > be sure, we have some 240v appliances, but they're mostly stationary items, > like ranges (cookers) and clothes dryers and have special (usually a large > crowfoot) receptacles connected to a single distribution panel circuit. Tumble driers (and washing machines, dishwashers, which have internal water heating elements) are just plugged into a normal 13A socket over here (and they may well aproach the 13A maximum). Most electric cookers are permanently wired in to a speical circuit, fused at 30A, but there are small tabletop cookers that just plug into the 13A socket (and again may well draw close to that current when in operation). Water heaters and shower heaters are also permanently wired in on special circuits, the latter might well be fused at 45A (yes, 9kW shower heaters do exist). Machine tools, etc are generally connected by a different set of connectors. I know them as 'BS4343', they have a CEN number that I can't remember. They are colour-coded as to voltage, come in 3, 4, 5 pole versions (for 3 phase applications), and come in various ratings up to 125A. These connectors do not contain fuses. Industrial portable power tools are 110V over here, operated from an isolating transformer with the secondary centre-tapped to ground. The idea being that if you accidentally touch a single wire, or the insulation of the tool breaks down, the maximum voltage you will get across you is 55V which is unlikely to be fatal. The typical transformer used for these tools is rated at 3kW (OK, strictly 3kVA). I know my father has an angle grinder which draws over 20A at 110V.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 17 16:46:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:46:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: do floppy drives need a switching p/s? In-Reply-To: <200602170014340663.12AF6CF3@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 17, 6 00:14:34 am Message-ID: > behind the drive. Works fine on a Qume DT-8. That 24vdc supply you > mention should do just fine, but the 5vdc draw may be heavier than you > think, particularly if you have the standard 220/330 terminators installed. I've yet to see a floppy drive that used 220/330 ohm terminators. Every one I've worked on just has a 150 ohm resistor to the +5V line. It'll still draw the current if that line is pulled low, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 17 16:56:22 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:56:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Help with HP 4951B protocol analyzer + 18179A In-Reply-To: from "John Hogerhuis" at Feb 17, 6 02:12:37 pm Message-ID: > My unit has a BNC type connector (think that's what it's called) on it. Mos= > t > composite monitors take RCA cables. Should I be able to find the right cabl= Well, most decent composite monitors have BNC inputs, but anyway. Most of the cheaper composite monitors have RCA phono sockets > e > off-the-shelf? It's a standard cable in the UK, it was often used to link a BBC micro (which also has a BNC socket for the composite output) to a cheap monitor. I bought one from Maplin a couple of weeks back. No idea if you can get them in the States. I think Maplin will ship worldwide, but their postage charges are not that low. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 17 17:04:53 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 23:04:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? In-Reply-To: <2dbad0fa4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at Feb 17, 6 10:37:29 pm Message-ID: > Speaking of which, I need some Molex "KK" 0.1" PCB connectors (cable headers > and PCB headers). Anyone know of a cheap source of them? I'm after ten pairs > of 3-way, two pairs of 6-way, two pairs of 2-way and a pair of 12-way. I don't know what you mean by 'cheap', but I think both RS and Farnell sell that range. You don't need that many of them, it may be cheaper to go there than hunt around (and maybe pay overseas shipping). -tony From rcini at optonline.net Fri Feb 17 17:16:56 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 18:16:56 -0500 Subject: Help with HP 4951B protocol analyzer + 18179A In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003a01c63418$3ee9d890$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> You can easily make a BNC-to-RCA cable but Radio Shack has a BNC-to-RCA adapter which would allow you to use an RCA-RCA cable. I have not used the output on mine, so let me know if this works for you. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Hogerhuis Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 5:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Help with HP 4951B protocol analyzer + 18179A On 2/17/06, Cini, Richard wrote: > > John: > > I own a 4952+18179, which is very similar. The manual might be available > from www.yourmanualsoure.com I rented the manual for the 4952A from them > for > $25 for one week. > > Answers as follows: > > (a) I believe you can save the data to the tape drive. My version has the > "02 option" which is a memory board which contains about 700k of RAM and > 128k of battery-backed NVRAM. Your unit may or may not have that option. > > (b) My unit has a floppy drive, but I recall reading that the tape drive > uses standard QIC tapes (don't recall the type, DC60 or DC100 I think). > They > should be available from various sources including eBay. > > (c) The vertical row of switches on the 18179 enables you to pass through > or > isolate various RS232 signals from the analyzer. The horizontal row of 25 > switches and patch cable holes enable you to concoct various wiring > schemes. > > (d) I believe that you can connect the video to any standard composite > monitor and it will show whatever is on the internal screen. My unit has a BNC type connector (think that's what it's called) on it. Most composite monitors take RCA cables. Should I be able to find the right cable off-the-shelf? Rich > > Thank you! -- John. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Feb 17 17:11:02 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 15:11:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: do floppy drives need a switching p/s? Message-ID: <200602172311.PAA05510@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> behind the drive. Works fine on a Qume DT-8. That 24vdc supply you >> mention should do just fine, but the 5vdc draw may be heavier than you >> think, particularly if you have the standard 220/330 terminators installed. > >I've yet to see a floppy drive that used 220/330 ohm terminators. Every >one I've worked on just has a 150 ohm resistor to the +5V line. It'll >still draw the current if that line is pulled low, though. > >-tony Hi Still, he isn't going to get his 5 volts from the 24 volt supply. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Feb 17 17:24:10 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 15:24:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help with HP 4951B protocol analyzer + 18179A Message-ID: <200602172324.PAA05824@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> My unit has a BNC type connector (think that's what it's called) on it. Mos= >> t >> composite monitors take RCA cables. Should I be able to find the right cabl= > >Well, most decent composite monitors have BNC inputs, but anyway. Most >of the cheaper composite monitors have RCA phono sockets > >> e >> off-the-shelf? > >It's a standard cable in the UK, it was often used to link a BBC micro >(which also has a BNC socket for the composite output) to a cheap >monitor. I bought one from Maplin a couple of weeks back. > >No idea if you can get them in the States. I think Maplin will ship >worldwide, but their postage charges are not that low. > >-tony Hi I've made a couple of these from cable, both starting from RCA on both ends and BNC on both ends. Get the connector you need from RS or other supply and make the cable. It only takes a few minutes and doesn't require special skills, other than using a soldering iron. One can get adapters as well. Allied has a part #202-0835 that is RCA jack to BNC plug. They're only $2.63 but I think they have a minimum purchase. ( BOMAR part# R0843 ) Dwight Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 17 18:03:26 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 00:03:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Help with HP 4951B protocol analyzer + 18179A In-Reply-To: <200602172324.PAA05824@ca2h0430.amd.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Feb 17, 6 03:24:10 pm Message-ID: > Hi > I've made a couple of these from cable, both starting from > RCA on both ends and BNC on both ends. Get the connector Don't forget there are 2 types of BNC connector, 50 Ohm and 75 Ohm. I am told the centre pin diameter is different between them, and using the wrong oen can cause intermittant connections or damage to the socket. For video applications, you need a 75 Ohm plug. Almost all other appications (test equipment, ethernet) use 50 Ohm. > you need from RS or other supply and make the cable. It > only takes a few minutes and doesn't require special > skills, other than using a soldering iron. At one time the Maplin cataloge contained instructions for fitting a BNC plug. They were hilarious!. They told you to remove xx.xx mm of insulation from the cable (yes, to the nearest 1/100th of a millimetre). Clearly an imperial dimension that had been converted by somebody who didn't think about it. In fact the BNC plug is very easy to wire. Probided you remove enough outer insulation from the cable (1" is plenty), every subsequent cut is against a part of the plug you've fitted (trim the braid around the outside of the metal ferule, the inner isulation against the end of the ferule, the inner conductor against the end of the flat insulator, etc). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 17 18:05:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 00:05:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: do floppy drives need a switching p/s? In-Reply-To: <200602172311.PAA05510@ca2h0430.amd.com> from "Dwight Elvey" at Feb 17, 6 03:11:02 pm Message-ID: > > > >I've yet to see a floppy drive that used 220/330 ohm terminators. Every > >one I've worked on just has a 150 ohm resistor to the +5V line. It'll > >still draw the current if that line is pulled low, though. > > > >-tony > > > Hi > Still, he isn't going to get his 5 volts from the 24 volt > supply. Why not? IIRC there's enough power to supply both rails. A reasnable step-down switching regulator circuit would have enough efficiency to supply 5V at 1A and only draw, say, 1/4A from the 24V supply. You can't use a linear regulator, though. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 17 18:07:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 16:07:16 -0800 Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602171607160332.16179F39@10.0.0.252> On 2/17/2006 at 10:44 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >What's a typical rating for an electric kettle? 1200-1500 watts would be typical. So that translates (at 120v) to 10A - 13A). Electric broilers are rated about the same. My vacuum cleaner (Eureka, not Hoover) claims to have a "powerful 12A motor". >Industrial portable power tools are 110V over here, operated from an >isolating transformer with the secondary centre-tapped to ground. The >idea being that if you accidentally touch a single wire, or the >insulation of the tool breaks down, the maximum voltage you will get >across you is 55V which is unlikely to be fatal. The typical transformer >used for these tools is rated at 3kW (OK, strictly 3kVA). I know my >father has an angle grinder which draws over 20A at 110V.... I assume that you're familiar with the 120v NEMA 2 wire (ungrounded) and 3-wire (grounded) 15A receptacles. Much beyond that, it's a free-for-all affair, even under NEMA code. Rather than enumerate them all here, I'll simply direct you to: http://www.et-sales.com/Receptacles.htm When I worked in a steel mill as a summer job during my time at the university, the distribution there was even more bewildering: 25 Hz (110, 220 single and 440 3-phase); 60 Hz (120V, 240V single-phase, 208V, 440V 3-phase), DC (250V and 660V). I don't recall what the large machinery (rolling mills, etc.) used, but I'm certain it was different from the stuff available at the wild array of receptacles. I learned early on that a 110V 25Hz motor would run just fine on 240V 60Hz current. Mercury-vapor lighting run on 25Hz would send one into an epileptic fit, while incandescent lighting on 250v was wonderfully bright and steady. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 17 18:39:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 16:39:18 -0800 Subject: do floppy drives need a switching p/s? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602171639180516.1634F3C1@10.0.0.252> On 2/17/2006 at 10:46 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >I've yet to see a floppy drive that used 220/330 ohm terminators. Every >one I've worked on just has a 150 ohm resistor to the +5V line. It'll >still draw the current if that line is pulled low, though. You're right--I was thinking of MFM hard drives. But the approximately 4V dropped through the 150ohms x 8 input signal lines is still about 200 ma, a signficant current. I note that on the 8" drive specs that I have, max 5v current is about 150% of typical, so one needs to make sure which number is being used. In any case, I'd probably over-design a PSU for one of these rather than use one that just meets it. Cheers, Chuck From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Feb 17 18:42:46 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 16:42:46 -0800 Subject: MSCP SCSI cdrom behavior In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43F66D86.5000204@mindspring.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 3:43 AM -0500 2/17/06, 9000 VAX wrote: >> Greeting, >> May I ask how an MSCP SCSI controller behaves when a CDROM drive is >> connected to it? When there is no CD in the drive, what does "show >> dev" console command show? Can I take out the CD when an OS is >> running? Can I take out the CD after I unmount it from the file >> system? >> >> My controller treats a CDROM drive as a read-only HD now. Please let >> me know how other controllers deal with the CDROM drive. Thank you. > > Good question. One thing to remember is that a lot of Q-Bus MSCP SCSI > controllers won't even talk to CD-ROM's, and if they will you have to > find one that will talk ot it. I've had good luck with Plextor caddie > drives, and an RDD-42, but I've another drive that works fine on my > Alpha's that won't work with my Q-Bus controller. > > I only use my SCSI (Unibus or Q-Bus) on PDP-11's, so I don't have the > "SHOW DEV" option. Having said that, as I recall, they show up as a > Read-Only HD. > I have an Emulex UC18 (dual SCSI, one channel setup for MSCP disk, other setup for TMSCP tape) on my PDP-11/44. I have both 2.1GB Seagate hard drives and DEC RRD43 (Toshiba) CDROMs on the disk port. I've used the CDROM to boot XXDP, RT-11, BSD2.11, and RSTS. The Emulex reads the CDROM and reports the size of the disk as the size of the drive. If no disk is present it reports drive offline. I can mount/unmount (BSD) and switch media in the CDROM at will. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Feb 17 19:16:04 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 01:16:04 GMT Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <153fdffa4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I don't know what you mean by 'cheap', but I think both RS and Farnell > sell that range. You don't need that many of them, it may be cheaper to > go there than hunt around (and maybe pay overseas shipping). "12-way KKs cheaper than 90p each in qty. 10" I've just had a good dig through the Farnell catalogue, which turned up a few other connectors (specifically the Molex C-Grid III series) that cost half of what the KKs cost. Maplin seem to have a limited range of the KKs (or at least their equivalent) cheaper than Farnell, but they're "special order only". -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G ... (A)bort, (R)etry, or (I)nfluence with hammer. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Feb 17 20:11:12 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 18:11:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: MSCP SCSI cdrom behavior In-Reply-To: <43F66D86.5000204@mindspring.com> from "Don North" at Feb 17, 2006 04:42:46 PM Message-ID: <200602180211.k1I2BCOV012040@onyx.spiritone.com> > I have an Emulex UC18 (dual SCSI, one channel setup for MSCP disk, other > setup for TMSCP tape) on my PDP-11/44. I have both 2.1GB Seagate hard > drives and DEC RRD43 (Toshiba) CDROMs on the disk port. I've used the > CDROM to boot XXDP, RT-11, BSD2.11, and RSTS. The Emulex reads the CDROM > and reports the size of the disk as the size of the drive. If no disk is > present it reports drive offline. I can mount/unmount (BSD) and switch > media in the CDROM at will. I'd not thought of building an XXDP CD-ROM, *good* idea! I assume in the case of XXDP there aren't any issues with booting off of a Read Only drive? What kind of luck have you had with RSTS? My goal is to be able to install RSTS/E off of CD-ROM. I can install RT-11 and RSX-11M+, plus I should be able to install RSX-11M. I got stuck on RSTS/E, but then I don't claim to be very knowledgable about RSTS/E. I can't remember if I've had a CD-ROM on my /44, I think the Viking UDT controller has new enough firmware. The real problem is the /44 is buried. I've got Viking QDT's in my /23+ and my /73. Zane From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 20:25:46 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 21:25:46 -0500 Subject: MSCP SCSI cdrom behavior In-Reply-To: <43F66D86.5000204@mindspring.com> References: <43F66D86.5000204@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On 2/17/06, Don North wrote: > I have an Emulex UC18 (dual SCSI, one channel setup for MSCP disk, other > setup for TMSCP tape) on my PDP-11/44. I have both 2.1GB Seagate hard > drives and DEC RRD43 (Toshiba) CDROMs on the disk port. I've used the > CDROM to boot XXDP, RT-11, BSD2.11, and RSTS. The Emulex reads the CDROM > and reports the size of the disk as the size of the drive. If no disk is > present it reports drive offline. I can mount/unmount (BSD) and switch > media in the CDROM at will. > Thank you. This is what I want to know. vax, 9000 From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Feb 17 20:25:57 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 21:25:57 -0500 Subject: KDF11-BA (M8189) 11/23+ CPU boot an ST225 on an RQDX3? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 17 Feb 2006 14:55:34 EST." <8D65D8B0-9D8B-4DA3-8766-2848F2FD1B6B@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <200602180225.k1I2Pvpl014902@mwave.heeltoe.com> David Betz wrote: >I just picked up a couple of KDF11-BA CPU modules. For some reason, I >thought I remembered that the 11/23+ could boot an MFM drive (ST225) >attached to an RQDX3 controller but it doesn't look like that from >the description of the boot options on the M8189 module. Is there an >alternate boot ROM that can be installed or am I just out of luck? well, I just formatted a couple of MFM drives (ST-225's) using an RQDX3 and an 11/23+ the other day. The cpu was an M8189. I'm not sure the eprom's are stock, however. I didn't change them but I think they have hand written labels on them. I'm happy to make an image of the eprom but i think theys are standard boot prom for the 11/23+. It certainly *wanted* to boot from the drives, but they were empty :-) ps: i started with an RQDX2 and XXDP was *not* happy with my ST-225's. it took me a while to figure out that the RQDX2 wants an RD5x drive, which are hard to find. once I switched to the RQDX3 I found XXDP was happy to format the drives. -brad From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Feb 17 20:31:13 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 21:31:13 -0500 Subject: KDF11-BA (M8189) 11/23+ CPU boot an ST225 on an RQDX3? In-Reply-To: <200602180225.k1I2Pvpl014902@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200602180225.k1I2Pvpl014902@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <3201EFA7-BE97-4FFF-8C7D-F1A7F694FF0D@xlisper.com> Thanks for your response. What did you set your boot device to? My 11/23+ manual says that the only choices are: RK05 RL01 or RL02 TU58 RX01 RX02 What would I set it to to boot off an RDxx on a RQDX3? Thanks! David On Feb 17, 2006, at 9:25 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > > David Betz wrote: >> I just picked up a couple of KDF11-BA CPU modules. For some reason, I >> thought I remembered that the 11/23+ could boot an MFM drive (ST225) >> attached to an RQDX3 controller but it doesn't look like that from >> the description of the boot options on the M8189 module. Is there an >> alternate boot ROM that can be installed or am I just out of luck? > > well, I just formatted a couple of MFM drives (ST-225's) using an > RQDX3 > and an 11/23+ the other day. The cpu was an M8189. > > I'm not sure the eprom's are stock, however. I didn't change them > but I > think they have hand written labels on them. I'm happy to make an > image > of the eprom but i think theys are standard boot prom for the 11/23+. > > It certainly *wanted* to boot from the drives, but they were empty :-) > > ps: i started with an RQDX2 and XXDP was *not* happy with my ST-225's. > it took me a while to figure out that the RQDX2 wants an RD5x drive, > which are hard to find. once I switched to the RQDX3 I found XXDP was > happy to format the drives. > > -brad > From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Feb 17 21:18:23 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 19:18:23 -0800 Subject: MSCP SCSI cdrom behavior In-Reply-To: <200602180211.k1I2BCOV012040@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200602180211.k1I2BCOV012040@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <43F691FF.2020006@mindspring.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> I have an Emulex UC18 (dual SCSI, one channel setup for MSCP disk, other >> setup for TMSCP tape) on my PDP-11/44. I have both 2.1GB Seagate hard >> drives and DEC RRD43 (Toshiba) CDROMs on the disk port. I've used the >> CDROM to boot XXDP, RT-11, BSD2.11, and RSTS. The Emulex reads the CDROM >> and reports the size of the disk as the size of the drive. If no disk is >> present it reports drive offline. I can mount/unmount (BSD) and switch >> media in the CDROM at will. >> > > I'd not thought of building an XXDP CD-ROM, *good* idea! I assume in the > case of XXDP there aren't any issues with booting off of a Read Only drive? > I found this to be *really* useful to check out hardware; all the diagnostics are right there. With a SCSI CDROM on an MSCP controller, XXDP boots and runs fine. It does not by default require any write access to the device media. XXDP v2.5 supports MSCP, so it was really a no-brainer. I just used CDRWIN on a PC to burn an ISO CD from the XXDPv2.5 RL02 .dsk image. > What kind of luck have you had with RSTS? My goal is to be able to install > RSTS/E off of CD-ROM. I can install RT-11 and RSX-11M+, plus I should be > able to install RSX-11M. I got stuck on RSTS/E, but then I don't claim to > be very knowledgable about RSTS/E. > I built and run 2.11BSD under SIMH (2.11 supports MSCP controllers) on a 1GB virtual MSCP drive. The root/swap/usr filesystems all were configured to fit in well under 650MB, so I can just copy the first part of the .dsk to an ISO CD using the same process above. On the real 11/44, I then booted XXDP, did a device to device copy of the first 32MB (XXDP copy limit: 64K 512B blocks) and then booted BSD from the hard drive. From there I can 'dd' and 'mkfs' the rest of the partitions, and boot all the way up to a network ready system since I have a DEUNA on the 11/44. RT-11 of course will boot and run directly off the CDROM. It is happy with a R/O boot media, as is XXDP. For RSTS I am running a v9.2 sysgen under SIMH with the same MSCP config to that used for BSD above. When I copied the image to CDROM, it would boot but failed the device config (it autodetects the TU58 serial port and sets the vector at 300) but SIMH does not support this device, so the sysgens did not match :-( and RSTS croaked in the boot phase. I have since hacked by BSD config, RSTS config, SIMH config, and my real h/w config to place my DZ11A at vector 310 (instead of 300) so all the environments are now consistent (BSD was not seeing the TU58 DL11 before). However I haven't yet gone back to try and reboot the updated RSTS config on the real 11/44. I have also stumbled across another problem. In trying to image copy 600+MB CDROMs to 1GB hard drives I have found that both XXDP and RT-11 appear to copy only the first 32MB (65536*512B total), so I can't copy my entire RSTS disk image to the hard drive. BSD won't do it either, since as of 2.11BSD it uses the on-disk partition map to determine the size of the disk, and a RSTS disk image does not have the BSD partition map. If anyone has a solution I'd like to hear it. At this point I'm about to write a simple standalone MSCP device/device copy routine that I can boot from TU58 and copy the entire 650MB CDROM to the 1GB disk. > I can't remember if I've had a CD-ROM on my /44, I think the Viking UDT > controller has new enough firmware. The real problem is the /44 is buried. > I've got Viking QDT's in my /23+ and my /73. > > Zane > > > > From molists at yahoo.com Fri Feb 17 21:35:55 2006 From: molists at yahoo.com (Mo) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 19:35:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: eBay Item Not Won: Vintage Digital DECWriter IV terminal, DEC, serial (8761560822) In-Reply-To: <200602121423250646.0152568B@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060218033555.90775.qmail@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2/12/2006 at 2:12 PM Mo wrote: > > > >There are still quite a few PDP-11, VAX, and Alpha end-users out > there, > >who need replacement parts. I happily sold my Decwriter IV two > years > >ago for a king's ransom to a gentleman with an alarm monitoring > system. > > Those needing KSR units don't have many options. > > Is there any reason that a dumb terminal with a printer attached > wouldn't > have worked? Several. Depends on your intent. In my case, most of the teleprinters served as journals for alarms and operator intervention, critical database update logging, access control logging, and electronic funds transfers. Introducing a CRT would not only allow for mischief, but given the varying competency of the personnel, but in my experience, it is impossible to keep an attached printer printing 100% of the time. (Not that Decwriter IV's work 100% either - II's and III's, bottom-fed, and TI820 KSR's were optimal.) Retaining the console-ish logs, stacked neatly in their original 3000-sheet fanfold form, in the paper box, in a vault facility, proved useful many times, versus machine-readable methods, when client's customers, They weren't the easiest to search if you don't have a good time reference, but were virtually indisputable. In today's Windoze-client environs, such a direct approach would not be accepted, as it would be considered unfair to deny the operator(s) the right to play Solitaire, chat on AIM, or "surf". Do I sound grumpy? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From allain at panix.com Fri Feb 17 21:53:17 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 22:53:17 -0500 Subject: Help with HP 4951B protocol analyzer + 18179A References: Message-ID: <004e01c6343e$da98c6e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > For video applications, you need a 75 Ohm plug. Almost all other > appications (test equipment, ethernet) use 50 Ohm. Sounds a little off. Cables are important, with impedance varying with diameter, _Terminators_ are important, coming in the 50, 75 Ohm varieties mentioned, but the connector itself being 50 or 75 Ohm? First I've heard of this. The connector rear half can come in sizes to match the cable OD, that's about it by my understanding. A mechanical, not electrical difference. John A. important? probably not. thread drift? probably! From lee at geekdot.com Fri Feb 17 23:20:26 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (lee at geekdot.com) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 06:20:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: Help with HP 4951B protocol analyzer + 18179A Message-ID: <2383.86.139.105.174.1140240026.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > Sounds a little off. Cables are important, with impedance varying > with diameter, _Terminators_ are important, coming in the 50, 75 > Ohm varieties mentioned, but the connector itself being 50 or 75 > Ohm? First I've heard of this. True and important. Using the wrong impedance connector or cable end will cause a (sometimes insignificant) missmatch. The bigger problem though is that mating a low impadance plug with a high impedance socket, e.g. 50 ohm -> 75 ohm, will probably damage the socket due to the larger internal conductor diameter of the plug. Mating a high impedance plug with a low impedance socket, e.g. 75 ohm -> 50 ohm, will probably give a poor contact due to the smaller inner conductor diameter of the high impedance plug. Lee. From Useddec at aol.com Fri Feb 17 23:55:45 2006 From: Useddec at aol.com (Useddec at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 00:55:45 EST Subject: DEMSA-AA Emulator Message-ID: <278.5121661.312810e1@aol.com> Can you use another DEMSA? Paul From news at computercollector.com Sat Feb 18 00:20:32 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 01:20:32 -0500 Subject: Another keynote speaker for VCF: David Ahl Message-ID: <006601c63453$6c3af190$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Well, this is cool! David Ahl, founder/editor of Creative Computing magazine, confirmed today that he'll speak at East 3.0. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sat Feb 18 03:23:33 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:23:33 +0100 Subject: MSCP SCSI cdrom behavior Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE2332@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I *always* have the WRITE PROT button pressed on my RL02 when I boot XXDP. That's been told to me long ago, to make sure that if something goes wrong the pack will not be overwritten. Up til now, I never had problems mounting XXDP read-only. - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Zane H. Healy Verzonden: za 18-02-2006 03:11 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: MSCP SCSI cdrom behavior I'd not thought of building an XXDP CD-ROM, *good* idea! I assume in the case of XXDP there aren't any issues with booting off of a Read Only drive? Zane This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Feb 18 04:38:26 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 05:38:26 -0500 Subject: Another keynote speaker for VCF: David Ahl In-Reply-To: <006601c63453$6c3af190$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <006601c63453$6c3af190$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: On 2/18/06, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > Well, this is cool! David Ahl, founder/editor of Creative Computing > magazine, confirmed today that he'll speak at East 3.0. Man... sorry I gotta miss it. :-P -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Feb 18 04:42:27 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 05:42:27 -0500 Subject: eBay Item Not Won: Vintage Digital DECWriter IV terminal, DEC, serial (8761560822) In-Reply-To: <20060218033555.90775.qmail@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200602121423250646.0152568B@10.0.0.252> <20060218033555.90775.qmail@web31507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2/17/06, Mo wrote: > In today's Windoze-client environs, such a direct approach would not be > accepted, as it would be considered unfair to deny the operator(s) the > right to play Solitaire, chat on AIM, or "surf". Do I sound grumpy? I recall when a $500,000 Fujitsu pick-n-place machine for an Lucent SMT assembly line was idled when the operator rebooted its optical recognition computer to play solitaire... -ethan From dbetz at xlisper.com Sat Feb 18 09:29:03 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 10:29:03 -0500 Subject: Problems booting a KDF11-BA Message-ID: <045D1A99-1319-4470-A346-94E73F2229A0@xlisper.com> I'm trying to get my KDF11-BA (M8189) CPU to boot and have gotten past the memory test but the processor halts with an "03" in the LEDs. According to the manual, this means "waiting for console transmitter READY flag". Does anyone know what might cause this? I have a terminal connected to the console port set to the correct baud rate. I have also verified that all of the jumpers and switches on the CPU are set correctly (to their factory defaults). Any help would be appreciated! Thanks, David Betz From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Feb 18 10:48:13 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 08:48:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tek 4010 in IL In-Reply-To: <045D1A99-1319-4470-A346-94E73F2229A0@xlisper.com> References: <045D1A99-1319-4470-A346-94E73F2229A0@xlisper.com> Message-ID: http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=793719&convertTo=USD Peter Wallace From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Feb 18 11:02:05 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 09:02:05 -0800 Subject: Tek 4010 in IL In-Reply-To: References: <045D1A99-1319-4470-A346-94E73F2229A0@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <43F7530D.8030303@msm.umr.edu> Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=793719&convertTo=USD > if anyone is interested, Murphy's surplus in El Cajon (San Diego) California has one of the large storage displays (about 9") that was used in the earlier 4000's. The display could be hooked up to one of the same printers (or whatever you want to call them) to print the screen. Jim From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Feb 18 11:18:32 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 17:18:32 -0000 Subject: DEMSA-AA Emulator In-Reply-To: <99fe082b0602150856w28fb1e4asc214b8ac7eeb6fd6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006901c634af$5c14b560$5b01a8c0@pc1> John Doyle wrote: > Does anyone know where a software emulator or a hardware replacement > for a DEC DEMSA AA can be found? The DEMSA could run a bunch of different code: DECnet Router, X.25 Gateway and probably SNA/Gateway too. Phase IV and Phase V. DECnis (also obsolete) could do all the non-SNA Phase V things that the DEMSA could do. I would guess that the suggested replacement would have been an Alpha running Digital Unix along with some synch cards if you needed X.25. Now that the Alpha EOL is in the air, you probably want to look at a cisco router of some sort. If you do want to add emulation to something like SIMH, it should not be too hard. The heart of the DEMSA is a uVAX II and the schematics and maintenance manual are available on the net. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From dbetz at xlisper.com Sat Feb 18 11:48:50 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 12:48:50 -0500 Subject: M9058 RQDX signal distribution module Message-ID: Does anyone know if the M9058 RQDX3 distribution module can be plugged into a CD slot on a H9276-A backplane or does it need to be in an AB slot? Thanks, David Betz From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Feb 18 12:12:54 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 13:12:54 -0500 Subject: M9058 RQDX signal distribution module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602181312.54443.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 18 February 2006 12:48, David Betz wrote: > Does anyone know if the M9058 RQDX3 distribution module can be > plugged into a CD slot on a H9276-A backplane or does it need to be > in an AB slot? I believe it only draws power from the slot, so a CD slot should be just fine. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dbetz at xlisper.com Sat Feb 18 12:29:35 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 13:29:35 -0500 Subject: M9058 RQDX signal distribution module In-Reply-To: <200602181312.54443.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200602181312.54443.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <804F6555-44CF-429D-A5B5-E7CA2DBFE4FB@xlisper.com> That's what I suspected. Thanks for confirming it! On Feb 18, 2006, at 1:12 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Saturday 18 February 2006 12:48, David Betz wrote: >> Does anyone know if the M9058 RQDX3 distribution module can be >> plugged into a CD slot on a H9276-A backplane or does it need to be >> in an AB slot? > > I believe it only draws power from the slot, so a CD slot should be > just fine. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 18 12:40:42 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 18:40:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: <200602171607160332.16179F39@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 17, 6 04:07:16 pm Message-ID: > > On 2/17/2006 at 10:44 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >What's a typical rating for an electric kettle? > > 1200-1500 watts would be typical. So that translates (at 120v) to 10A - > 13A). Electric broilers are rated about the same. My vacuum cleaner So same currnet (and thus half the power) of ours. > (Eureka, not Hoover) claims to have a "powerful 12A motor". As if the input current tells you _anything_.... > I assume that you're familiar with the 120v NEMA 2 wire (ungrounded) and > 3-wire (grounded) 15A receptacles. I think so. I know the 115V 15A one with the 2 'vertical' blades for live and neutral (and a U-shaped earth sometimes), the 20A (?) version with one blade vertical, the other horizontal, and the 230V version with 2 horixontal blades. Oh, and I've seen various twist-and-lock ones described in DEC manuals. The 230V 15A connector is common on BEC hardawre over here (unlike Tektronix, who ued the 115V version no matter what voltage the instrument was going to be used on). But getting that connector is very difficult, I've been quoted \pounds 25.00 (about $40) for a single plug. Surely they are a lot cheaper in the States. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 18 12:51:33 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 18:51:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Help with HP 4951B protocol analyzer + 18179A In-Reply-To: <004e01c6343e$da98c6e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Feb 17, 6 10:53:17 pm Message-ID: > > > For video applications, you need a 75 Ohm plug. Almost all other > > appications (test equipment, ethernet) use 50 Ohm. > > Sounds a little off. Cables are important, with impedance > varying with diameter, _Terminators_ are important, coming > in the 50, 75 Ohm varieties mentioned, but the connector > itself being 50 or 75 Ohm? First I've heard of this. Every catalogue I've looked in lists 50 Ohm and 75 Ohm BNC connectors. It may just be that they're designed for a partticular type of cable, but the chassis mount sockets _also_ esist in both versions, so presumably there are differences. It may just be in the outside dimensions of the inner contact so aas not to give a tiny mismatch at that point. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 18 12:55:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 18:55:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Help with HP 4951B protocol analyzer + 18179A In-Reply-To: <2383.86.139.105.174.1140240026.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> from "lee@geekdot.com" at Feb 18, 6 06:20:26 am Message-ID: > > > Sounds a little off. Cables are important, with impedance varying > > with diameter, _Terminators_ are important, coming in the 50, 75 > > Ohm varieties mentioned, but the connector itself being 50 or 75 > > Ohm? First I've heard of this. > > True and important. Using the wrong impedance connector or cable end > will cause a (sometimes insignificant) missmatch. The bigger problem > though is that mating a low impadance plug with a high impedance socket, > e.g. 50 ohm -> 75 ohm, will probably damage the socket due to the larger > internal conductor diameter of the plug. Mating a high impedance plug > with a low impedance socket, e.g. 75 ohm -> 50 ohm, will probably give > a poor contact due to the smaller inner conductor diameter of the high > impedance plug. I'd read that too, but somebody sent me a private e-mail saying that the mating diameters of the inner pins of both types of connector were the same, it was the outer diameter of the socket contact that differerd (so as to give the right characteristic impedance with the dielectric used). And therefore there's no mechancial problem in inter-mating the wrong connectors. And for this application there's no electrical problem either (the other end of the cable has an RCA phono plug on it, well known for not having a defined characteristic impedance). Any mismatch at the BNC end would cause no problems. I feel like getting a couple of plugs, one of each type, and sticking a micrometer on the centre pin. And I am not going to trust the no-name ones from the local hobbyist shop either (who knows what spec they're made to!). Then I'll know (hopefully) for sure. -tony From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Feb 18 13:05:23 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 13:05:23 -0600 Subject: classiccmping and cold weather Message-ID: What is the danger related to storing CC gear in extreme cold temperatures? This is not operating, and will be broght back to working temp range properly to prevent water condensation issues, but I have several computers in the (attached) garage with temperatures in the 20s. Any risks to drives (obviously electronics will be pretty immune). Sidenote- my bedroom got really chilly (50s), but fortunately I'm a CCer, so now it's Heated by HP :-) (No offense to DECcies, but 2xPA7100 is warmer than 1xKA660) From paul at frixxon.co.uk Sat Feb 18 13:07:07 2006 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:07:07 +0000 Subject: GHOST Graphics In-Reply-To: <002e01c633ee$8741b060$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <002e01c633ee$8741b060$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <43F7705B.3010902@frixxon.co.uk> Jim Beacon wrote: > While at college, I remember using a package called GHOST Graphics [...] > I suspect that the software was running under VMS, and I vaguely remember > using the standard editor to produce reports for assignments. > > Has anyone else used this package, or better still, have a copy? It is scary to think that it is nearly twenty years since I worked at the UK Atomic Energy Authority at Culham Labs, Oxfordshire, the home of GHOST. There was a Software Applications Group, and I worked my sandwich year there from July 1987 to August 1988, with about three other students. One of them got to work on GHOST development, whereas I only had to use it to update an accounting package for the PRIME network. COST3D took the numbers from PRIMROSE (a tortuous acronym) to produce some pretty graphs to demonstrate the trend away from using the minicomputer networks and mainframes (Primes and VAXen at Culham, and the IBM 3084Q and Cray 2 at Harwell) towards workstations (sexy black Whitechapel MG-1s). IIRC, GHOST was written in FORTRAN, as most of our applications were, and created and maintained by a Mr Prior (I'm not being formal -- I can't remember his name, despite Google's hint that his initials are WAJ). Unfortunately, my Industrial Training Report doesn't provide any more details, and I can't find the few graphs from that time that I printed from one of the Tektronix terminals. No software either, sorry! -- Paul From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Feb 18 13:20:00 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:20:00 -0000 Subject: GHOST Graphics References: <002e01c633ee$8741b060$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <43F7705B.3010902@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <002e01c634c0$508386c0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Paul Williams" It is scary to think that it is nearly twenty years since I worked at > the UK Atomic Energy Authority at Culham Labs, Oxfordshire, the home of > GHOST. There was a Software Applications Group, and I worked my sandwich > year there from July 1987 to August 1988, That ties in nicely - I was at Trent Polytechnic (now Nottingham Trent University) from '88 to '90. >with about three other > students. One of them got to work on GHOST development, whereas I only > had to use it to update an accounting package for the PRIME network. > COST3D took the numbers from PRIMROSE (a tortuous acronym) to produce > some pretty graphs to demonstrate the trend away from using the > minicomputer networks and mainframes (Primes and VAXen at Culham, and > the IBM 3084Q and Cray 2 at Harwell) towards workstations (sexy black > Whitechapel MG-1s). That sounds like an interesting set up! We had the VAX cluster (don't know what machines were involved), with VT100 and Tek terminals, as well as a small number of PC's (286 / 386) and some Apollo Domain 3500's (used for PCB layout work). We also used Motorola D2 training systems for machine code lab work (once you learnt how to program at a 1's and 0's level, you were allowed to use the cross-assembler). > IIRC, GHOST was written in FORTRAN, as most of our applications were, > and created and maintained by a Mr Prior (I'm not being formal -- I > can't remember his name, despite Google's hint that his initials are WAJ). That's interesting - I only knew the package as an end user. > > Unfortunately, my Industrial Training Report doesn't provide any more > details, and I can't find the few graphs from that time that I printed > from one of the Tektronix terminals. No software either, sorry! Somewhere I have prinouts of the plots we created, but they could be anywhere now, the only definite is that I haven't thrown out my old college notes! Jim. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 18 13:33:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 11:33:23 -0800 Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602181133230130.1A433885@10.0.0.252> On 2/18/2006 at 6:40 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >The 230V 15A connector is common on BEC hardawre over here (unlike >Tektronix, who ued the 115V version no matter what voltage the instrument >was going to be used on). But getting that connector is very difficult, >I've been quoted \pounds 25.00 (about $40) for a single plug. Surely they >are a lot cheaper in the States. They are--probably around $5 in single-unit quantities. I use one on my automatic dishwasher. It's the hospital-grade receptacles and plugs that are dear here. Aside from an additional endorsement and a different color, I don't know if they differ much from the ordinary consumer grade stuff. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 18 13:38:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 11:38:03 -0800 Subject: Help with HP 4951B protocol analyzer + 18179A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602181138030744.1A4780AB@10.0.0.252> On 2/18/2006 at 6:55 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >And therefore there's no mechancial problem in inter-mating the wrong >connectors. And for this application there's no electrical problem either >(the other end of the cable has an RCA phono plug on it, well known for >not having a defined characteristic impedance). Any mismatch at the BNC >end would cause no problems. Back when I was networking with 10B2, I picked up a quantity of 75ohm BNC plugs for very cheap. The cable size mismatch was apparent, but not the inner conductor as far as I could tell. I simply grabbled some soft thinwall copper tubing and used it as a shim over the sheild braid. It worked fine. Cheers, Chuck From lee at geekdot.com Sat Feb 18 14:33:31 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (lee at geekdot.com) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 21:33:31 +0100 (CET) Subject: classiccmping and cold weather Message-ID: <2751.86.139.105.174.1140294811.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > What is the danger related to storing CC gear in extreme cold > temperatures? One thing to keep in mind is that some liquid crystal displays will be permanently damaged by freezing. Others will stop working, usually turning completely opaque or completely transparent, but will recover when they warm up. Lee. From lee at geekdot.com Sat Feb 18 14:53:28 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (lee at geekdot.com) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 21:53:28 +0100 (CET) Subject: Help with HP 4951B protocol analyzer + 18179A Message-ID: <2823.86.139.105.174.1140296008.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > I'd read that too, but somebody sent me a private e-mail saying that > the mating diameters of the inner pins of both types of connector were > the same, It depends on the connector type, BNC and TNC yes, C, N and MUSA no. Also 50 and 75 ohm aren't the only impedances, just the most common. Lee. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 18 16:09:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 14:09:31 -0800 Subject: What fits a machine pin DIP socket? Message-ID: <200602181409310451.1AD22BAE@10.0.0.252> I'm making an adapter on a small PC board here to fit a 40 pin DIP machine-pin socket. I'm not certain what to use for the pins on the PCB that will be inserted into the socket. Ordinary 0.100 pitch square-pin header stock might fit, but I'm concerned about it damaging the socket so that a standard 40 pin IC inserted into the socket may no longer work reliably. Any suggestions? Thanks, Chuck From tradde at excite.com Sat Feb 18 16:30:10 2006 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 17:30:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: My pdp-8i problem Message-ID: <20060218223010.C9A754AFBB@xprdmxin.myway.com> I was hoping someone on this list might have some input on this. I have also posted this to alt.sys.pdp8. I have a pdp-8i with a memory problem. Here is the post from alt.sys.pdp8: Quite some time back while scoping out a problem I shorted a pin in my 8i backplane and lost memory control. Since that time Vince and I have been trying to figure out where the problem is to fix it. I don't know what pin I shorted as at the time I did not realize I had damaged anything. The +5v breaker tripped though. The problem is I can not deposit or read back any memory locations. The MB is displayed correctly on a deposit. Scoping signal has shown me a very odd signal on B FIELD 0 (1) when the machine is in run mode. It has a wave form on it rather than just a normal voltage. The oddest thing is the high point of the wave goes up to +6v with a bit of the beginning of the top portion going above +6v. To me this should not be. How can I get +6v from a system that is using +5v as it's input voltage? We have some theories but nothing concrete as yet. The other thing is if I remove all 3 G228s (A36, B36, B37) the signal goes away. I do not have parity memory so nothing is in A37. We believe there is a bad ground somewhere, but I have not been able to determine where. I do not have a wiring list so I may have to trace some signals manually. I think I have to find all the places the B30L1 (B FIELD 0(1)) goes to. Any ideas or suggestions from anyone? This has been bugging me for a long time. I look at it for awhile, and then put it down for awhile. It's also not easy to look at this in the location it is in. It's too low to kneel and really be comfortable. Too high to lay on my stomach. :) Thanks for any input on this. I should say that part of the system still works. Examining or depositing memory while it does not appear to load/store the data increments the PC as it should. I can sort of run, which was my original problem. It runs but stays at location zero. It is not an interrupt causing this. So the front panel is mostly operational so at least some of the machine is still working. I just have to find the problem with the memory. I know most people on this list do not have a pdp-8i, nor may know much if anything about them. Any suggestion will be taken and looked into if it seems to have hope of leading to a solution. Also I will answer any questions people have to help describe the problem more or give more details into what Vince and I have looked at. Tim Radde _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 18 17:00:34 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 23:00:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: What fits a machine pin DIP socket? In-Reply-To: <200602181409310451.1AD22BAE@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 18, 6 02:09:31 pm Message-ID: > > I'm making an adapter on a small PC board here to fit a 40 pin DIP > machine-pin socket. I'm not certain what to use for the pins on the PCB > that will be inserted into the socket. Ordinary 0.100 pitch square-pin > header stock might fit, but I'm concerned about it damaging the socket so > that a standard 40 pin IC inserted into the socket may no longer work > reliably. > > Any suggestions? You can get pins speficially for this from some suppliers in the UK. They come in plastic strips of 32 pins, you break off the length you want (here 20 pins). The pins are larger diameter on one side of the carrier strip than the other, the thinner side fits the turned pin IC socket, the thicker side is soldered to the adapter PCB. -tony From CCTalk at catcorner.org Sat Feb 18 17:04:57 2006 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 18:04:57 -0500 Subject: Changing the PC floppy port address Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A337EC@mail.catcorner.org> I know it can be done, I'm just not sure how. I have an adaptec 1542B controller that I'm using the floppy controller on. It current has two options for the floppy controller: 3F0-3F7h or 370-377h 3F0 (001111110000) is with J8/1 open 370 (001101110000) is with J8/1 closed I'd like to re-address this to something else, like 320 or 330 or even the LPT or serial port addresses. Now, how the heck would I go about this? I'm pretty good with a soldering iron, and I know how to count. Being a bit of an ISA bus neophyte, are these addresses selected by the "Data" lines of the ISA connector (D0-D7), or what exactly is being read? The 1542 uses a DP8473 floppy Disk Controller, nad I have the datasheet for that. Thanks, Kelly From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 18 17:18:51 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 15:18:51 -0800 Subject: classiccmping and cold weather In-Reply-To: <2751.86.139.105.174.1140294811.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <2751.86.139.105.174.1140294811.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: At 9:33 PM +0100 2/18/06, lee at geekdot.com wrote: > > What is the danger related to storing CC gear in extreme cold >> temperatures? > >One thing to keep in mind is that some liquid crystal displays will be >permanently damaged by freezing. Others will stop working, usually >turning completely opaque or completely transparent, but will recover >when they warm up. Interesting. Any idea if this would effect the original Game Boy's? I don't know what it is about them, but I had two of them that lost lines on the display after they sat unused for a year or two. At the same time I'm fairly certain neither would have gotten frozen. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jhoger at pobox.com Sat Feb 18 17:21:00 2006 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 15:21:00 -0800 Subject: What fits a machine pin DIP socket? In-Reply-To: <200602181409310451.1AD22BAE@10.0.0.252> References: <200602181409310451.1AD22BAE@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <1140304860.29397.316.camel@aragorn> On Sat, 2006-02-18 at 14:09 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm making an adapter on a small PC board here to fit a 40 pin DIP > machine-pin socket. I'm not certain what to use for the pins on the PCB > that will be inserted into the socket. Ordinary 0.100 pitch square-pin > header stock might fit, but I'm concerned about it damaging the socket so > that a standard 40 pin IC inserted into the socket may no longer work > reliably. > >From my friend Steve Adolph (he needed to solve the same problem for Remem http://bitchin100.com/remem_project.htm ): ------------------------- * you need to use round pins * there are pin headers that make this easy * I don't know how to order them, but I have a large quantity of them I'd be happy to mail a quantity of pin headers that are great for this. I think I have 900 tubes of 10 each of 14 pin headers...lots of them. Just cover the cost of mailing and add 0.01 $ per pin. ex. 4$ postage + package, and 10 pin headers of 14 pins each = 5.40 hope that is helpful....Steve -------------------------- -- John. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 18 17:25:54 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 23:25:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Changing the PC floppy port address In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A337EC@mail.catcorner.org> from "Kelly Leavitt" at Feb 18, 6 06:04:57 pm Message-ID: > > I know it can be done, I'm just not sure how. I have an adaptec 1542B > controller that I'm using the floppy controller on. > > It current has two options for the floppy controller: 3F0-3F7h or 370-377h > 3F0 (001111110000) is with J8/1 open > 370 (001101110000) is with J8/1 closed > > I'd like to re-address this to something else, like 320 or 330 or even the > LPT or serial port addresses. Now, how the heck would I go about this? I'm > pretty good with a soldering iron, and I know how to count. > > Being a bit of an ISA bus neophyte, are these addresses selected by the > "Data" lines of the ISA connector (D0-D7), or what exactly is being read? No, the addresses are sent on the address lines (A0-A9 in the case of a normal I/O address on a PC, although IIRC, the 80x86 acutally uses A0-A15, it's just that _most_ ISA cards ignore the top few address lines for I/O cycles). I've not got the data sheet on this disk controller chip to hand, but typically, you'll find that the low few address lines go to inputs on the chip to select different internal registers. The higher lines are decoded to provide a chip select signal. An example may help. Suppose the particular I/O chip has 8 internal registers, it will therefore have 3 address inputs to select one of the 8. And suppose you want it to appear at I/O addresses 370-377 hex. A0, A1, A2 are wired to the address inputs on the chip A3 to A9 are wired to an address decoder circuit which asserts chip select when the signals are in the following states A9 A8 A7 A6 A5 A4 A3 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 _One_ way to do that would be to invery A7 and A3 (say by using 74LS04 NOT gates) and then to NAND the outputs of those inverters with the other 5 signals (a 74LS30 8-input NAND is useful here!). Note that this produces a low at the output of the NAND gate for the desired address range, and that most chip select signals are active low. It's also generally necessary to include the Address Enable signal and the I/O Read and I/O Write signals at some point. Very often this address decoding is done by a PAL or a PROM, or even worse inside an ASIC. You may be able to program a new device to move thigns to new addresses. In some cases, inverting some of the address inputs to the PAL/PROM will help, but this will generally 'move' all devices selected by that PAL/PROM. Maybe you'll have to design a new address decoder circuit and kludge it on somehow. Before trying that, you'll want to look at the schematics for a few simple ISA cards to see how the address decoding is generally done. -tony From jcwren at jcwren.com Sat Feb 18 17:28:35 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 18:28:35 -0500 Subject: What fits a machine pin DIP socket? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43F7ADA3.2070809@jcwren.com> Chuck, Check out DigiKey item ED2064-ND on page 328 of the most recent catalog or on the web. Also ED1x064-ND, where x is 6, 7, 8 or 9. --jc Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm making an adapter on a small PC board here to fit a 40 pin DIP >> machine-pin socket. I'm not certain what to use for the pins on the PCB >> that will be inserted into the socket. Ordinary 0.100 pitch square-pin >> header stock might fit, but I'm concerned about it damaging the socket so >> that a standard 40 pin IC inserted into the socket may no longer work >> reliably. >> >> Any suggestions? >> > > You can get pins speficially for this from some suppliers in the UK. They > come in plastic strips of 32 pins, you break off the length you want > (here 20 pins). The pins are larger diameter on one side of the carrier > strip than the other, the thinner side fits the turned pin IC socket, the > thicker side is soldered to the adapter PCB. > > -tony > From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Feb 18 18:15:29 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:15:29 -0500 Subject: Changing the PC floppy port address In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A337EC@mail.catcorner.org> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A337EC@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <200602181915.29977.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 18 February 2006 18:04, Kelly Leavitt wrote: > I know it can be done, I'm just not sure how. I have an adaptec 1542B > controller that I'm using the floppy controller on. > > It current has two options for the floppy controller: 3F0-3F7h or 370-377h > 3F0 (001111110000) is with J8/1 open > 370 (001101110000) is with J8/1 closed > > I'd like to re-address this to something else, like 320 or 330 or even the > LPT or serial port addresses. Now, how the heck would I go about this? I'm > pretty good with a soldering iron, and I know how to count. The easiest way to do this, is to trace the address lines from the ISA port to the address decoder chip, and to swap some of the address line inputs to the chip around. Eg, if you swapped A7 and A6, with J8/1 closed, you'd get 3B0, swapping A7 and A5 would get you 3D0 as an address, A7 and A4 would get 3E0, A7 and A8 get you 2F0, A7 and A9 get you 1F0, etc. According to the document I'm looking at, 3B0-3B7 is also used by the MDA, 3D0 is used by the CGA/EGA/VGA, 1F0 is the primary IDE controller address, and 3E0 and 2F0 seems to be generally unused. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 18 18:23:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 16:23:06 -0800 Subject: Changing the PC floppy port address In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A337EC@mail.catcorner.org> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A337EC@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <200602181623060155.1B4C762F@10.0.0.252> On 2/18/2006 at 6:04 PM Kelly Leavitt wrote: >It current has two options for the floppy controller: 3F0-3F7h or 370-377h >3F0 (001111110000) is with J8/1 open >370 (001101110000) is with J8/1 closed Are you sure that the jumper isn't J7? According to my refs, J8 is enable/disable floppy. I don't have the 1542B, but I do have a 1542A, which is a less-well-integrated version (uses an 8085). On mine, the floppy address is decoded using a 74LS688 magnitude comparator, so it would be easy to change, buf that much of the address selection wiring is UNDER the SMT package, so it would have to be unsoldered. But once that was done, it would be a pretty simple job to change the address. I don't know if the 1542B is that simple-minded, though--Adaptec could have gotten smart and used a PAL or even an ASIC for some of that. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Feb 18 18:41:36 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:41:36 -0500 Subject: KDF11-BA (M8189) 11/23+ CPU boot an ST225 on an RQDX3? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 17 Feb 2006 21:31:13 EST." <3201EFA7-BE97-4FFF-8C7D-F1A7F694FF0D@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <200602190041.k1J0faxa032355@mwave.heeltoe.com> David Betz wrote: >Thanks for your response. What did you set your boot device to? My >11/23+ manual says that the only choices are: > >RK05 >RL01 or RL02 >TU58 >RX01 >RX02 > >What would I set it to to boot off an RDxx on a RQDX3? I don't have the output handy ( I can get it tomorrow) but my eproms put the RQDX2 & RQDX3 under the "DU" device, since it's MSCP. As least I'd claim it was at a cocktail party (i'm 99% sure it is) So you get a choice of (i think) 7 du devices, from du0 - du6. I think the floppy drive is DU0 & DU1. As I recall the disk is DU2. I think I had to play with the drive select jumper on the hard disk to make it #2, which is abnormal for a ibm pc style drive (they only use 0 & 1). As I remember the seagate docs say something about drive select ping 2 & 3 being unused, which is not quite true. I think my eproms have DU first. I remember RL, TU58 & RX but I don't recall RK05. I may just not have recognized the "device name" in dec boot parlance. -brad From lee at geekdot.com Sat Feb 18 19:38:22 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (lee at geekdot.com) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 02:38:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: classiccmping and cold weather Message-ID: <3715.86.139.105.174.1140313102.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > Any idea if this would effect the original Game Boy's? > I don't know what it is about them, but I had two of them that > lost lines on the display after they sat unused for a year or two. Unlikely, temperature damage tends to affect the whole display, either uniformly or graduated from the area that was frozen or heated. Lost lines are usually due to the connection to the conductors on the glass becomming detached. This can often be repaired just by bending the tabs on the back of the LCD fram a little. Lee. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat Feb 18 21:41:29 2006 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 19:41:29 -0800 Subject: What fits a machine pin DIP socket? Message-ID: <000601c63506$6b893d70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> I tried several types of pins and found the 22-gage wire works well. I get the wire from capacitor leads. Some capacitors have steel leads, these make excellent pins. (The leads can be picked up with a magnet.) You can still use the capacitor after you trim the leads. I wrote up how to do this for a ROM replacement for the SWTPC 6800. Look in the Users Guide for the step by step process. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/ROM_Emulator/ROM_Index.htm J.C. Wren's find of the DigiKey ED2064-ND looks good. Michael Holley From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 18 22:31:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 20:31:37 -0800 Subject: What fits a machine pin DIP socket? In-Reply-To: <000601c63506$6b893d70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> References: <000601c63506$6b893d70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <200602182031370964.1C2FFDB0@10.0.0.252> On 2/18/2006 at 7:41 PM Michael Holley wrote: >I tried several types of pins and found the 22-gage wire works well. I >get >the wire from capacitor leads. Some capacitors have steel leads, these >make >excellent pins. (The leads can be picked up with a magnet.) You can still >use the capacitor after you trim the leads. A long time ago, I converted SIMMs to SIPs that way--soldered on short lengths of hard bronze music wire. More robust than copper and not corrosion-prone like steel. I think a molded plastic retainer is important, however, as insertion forces could lift the foil right off of the PCB. I'm doing some looking around... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 18 22:53:20 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 20:53:20 -0800 Subject: Old Japanese MPUs Message-ID: <200602182053200906.1C43DF28@10.0.0.252> I ran across a small (3'x4") PCB with what looks like an MPU on it. The part numbers for the most mean nothing to me. There's a 27C256 on it and a 20 MHz XCO and some assorted glue. The largest package is a Mitsubishi MN8601ME1, 64 pin "shrink DIP". Next to it is a MN8611A 42 pin "shrink DIP" and a QFP MN51040MGU, which I believe is a gate array. Does anyone have a clue as to what the heck this is? Cheers, Chuck From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Feb 19 04:16:02 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 02:16:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Documents available -- Centronics, Terminet, Vadic, Shintron, Perkin-Elmer, Best Power Message-ID: <20060219101602.36717.qmail@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All are photocopies except as noted: User manual for Carousel 310 and Carousel 350 printer Perkin-Elmer, 1978 (photocopy) Operation and Service Manual for VA3415C/D/V 1200bps Modem Vadic, 1977 Installation Instructions, VA3400 Series Modem includes theory of operation and calibration Vadic, 1975 Shintron Model 520 Ecricon(R) Graphic Data Tablet Instruction Manual Shintron Company, Inc., 1972 (original document) Technical Manual, Model 306 Printer Centronics Data Computer Corp., 1981 (original document) Model 6080 Printer Operators Manual, Rev. A Centronics Data Computer Corp., 1982 (original document) Operators Manual, Series 100 Printers Centronics Data Computer Corp., 1973 Revision Identification Guide for the Model 101 and 101A Printer Centronics Data Computer Corp., 1973 Maintenance and Field Change Bulletin for Centronics Model 101/101A Printers DEC-FS-HPTRA-A-D Digital Equipment Corporation (Centronics reprint) Partial copy of GE Terminet 300 maintenance manual Many Terminet Service Advice notices (mid 70's) Micro-Ferrups Uninterruptible Power Systems User Manual Best Power, 1993 (original document) From rtellason at blazenet.net Sun Feb 19 11:48:08 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 12:48:08 -0500 Subject: Help with HP 4951B protocol analyzer + 18179A In-Reply-To: <004e01c6343e$da98c6e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <004e01c6343e$da98c6e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200602191248.08579.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 17 February 2006 10:53 pm, John Allain wrote: > > For video applications, you need a 75 Ohm plug. Almost all other > > appications (test equipment, ethernet) use 50 Ohm. > > Sounds a little off. Cables are important, with impedance > varying with diameter, _Terminators_ are important, coming > in the 50, 75 Ohm varieties mentioned, but the connector > itself being 50 or 75 Ohm? First I've heard of this. > The connector rear half can come in sizes to match the cable > OD, that's about it by my understanding. A mechanical, not > electrical difference. > > John A. > important? probably not. thread drift? probably! And then there are the couple of ARCnet cards I have around here someplace, along with terminators (I hope!), that are using 62 ohms impedance... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From lee at geekdot.com Sun Feb 19 13:07:53 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (lee at geekdot.com) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 20:07:53 +0100 (CET) Subject: Old Japanese MPUs Message-ID: <3216.86.139.105.174.1140376073.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > There's a 27C256 on it and a 20 MHz XCO and some assorted glue. > The largest package is a Mitsubishi MN8601ME1, 64 pin "shrink DIP". > Next to it is a MN8611A 42 pin "shrink DIP" and a QFP MN51040MGU, > which I believe is a gate array. > Does anyone have a clue as to what the heck this is? Some Mitsubishi MCUs have 65C02 cores in them, do you have a dump of the EPROM yet? The contents of that are probably your best clue. Lee. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sun Feb 19 13:18:42 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 13:18:42 -0600 Subject: Repairing wall warts Message-ID: <081cabad900d40f5bf31ba4c1afb1e8d@valleyimplants.com> >They are--probably around $5 in single-unit quantities. I use one on my >automatic dishwasher. > >It's the hospital-grade receptacles and plugs that are dear here. Aside >from an additional endorsement and a different color, I don't know if they >differ much from the ordinary consumer grade stuff. > >Cheers, >Chuck For anything except the most basic use, get the commercial grade. We had big problems at the computer lab at my school because the original electrician used the cheap receptacles, and they started tripping the breakers last year . . . I think most of the plugs you can get are pretty well made, though. Expect to spend about $7-$10 for a grounding plug with screw terminals. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 19 13:44:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 11:44:48 -0800 Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: <081cabad900d40f5bf31ba4c1afb1e8d@valleyimplants.com> References: <081cabad900d40f5bf31ba4c1afb1e8d@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200602191144480247.1F740BB6@10.0.0.252> On 2/19/2006 at 1:18 PM compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > For anything except the most basic use, get the commercial grade. We had >big problems at the computer lab at my school because the original >electrician used the cheap receptacles, and they started tripping the >breakers last year . . . > I think most of the plugs you can get are pretty well made, though. Expect to spend about $7-$10 for a grounding plug with screw terminals. I don't understand how a receptacle can trip a circuit breaker. At worst, it would seem that it would fail to make contact or have high resistance contacts. Hospital-grade receptacles are distinguished by "Hospital Only" or "Hospital Grade" printing and a green dot. $30 retail for a duplex receptacle is pretty typical. Whilst browsing around, I discovered another bit of audiophile folly. CRYOGENICALLY TREATED AC PLUGS AND RECEPTACLES: http://www.audioexcellenceaz.com/acproducts.htm It seems now that solid-silver speaker wire isn't sufficient. Unfortunately, the site shown above doesn't specify what's to be used for wiring between the plug and receptacle. It's pretty safe to assume that it's not zip cord! Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 19 13:45:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 11:45:53 -0800 Subject: Old Japanese MPUs In-Reply-To: <3216.86.139.105.174.1140376073.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <3216.86.139.105.174.1140376073.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <200602191145530701.1F750B64@10.0.0.252> That's what I would have done--unfortunately, the EPROM's long gone. Sigh. Cheers, Chuck On 2/19/2006 at 8:07 PM lee at geekdot.com wrote: >> There's a 27C256 on it and a 20 MHz XCO and some assorted glue. > >> The largest package is a Mitsubishi MN8601ME1, 64 pin "shrink DIP". >> Next to it is a MN8611A 42 pin "shrink DIP" and a QFP MN51040MGU, >> which I believe is a gate array. > >> Does anyone have a clue as to what the heck this is? > >Some Mitsubishi MCUs have 65C02 cores in them, do you have a dump of >the EPROM yet? The contents of that are probably your best clue. > >Lee. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 19 14:01:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 12:01:45 -0800 Subject: Old Japanese MPUs In-Reply-To: <3216.86.139.105.174.1140376073.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <3216.86.139.105.174.1140376073.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <200602191201450550.1F839197@10.0.0.252> On 2/19/2006 at 8:07 PM lee at geekdot.com wrote: >Some Mitsubishi MCUs have 65C02 cores in them, do you have a dump of >the EPROM yet? The contents of that are probably your best clue. ...and my bad--I read the logo wrong. It's a Matsushita (Panasonic) MPU. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 19 14:47:19 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 20:47:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: <200602191144480247.1F740BB6@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 19, 6 11:44:48 am Message-ID: > I don't understand how a receptacle can trip a circuit breaker. At worst, > it would seem that it would fail to make contact or have high resistance > contacts. Well, if the insulation carbonised and became slightly conductive, it could pass enough leakage current to trip an RCD/RCCB/ELCB/whatever it's called thise week. I once witnessed a metalclad socket outlet fail in the UK. Apparently, repeated unplging of high-power devices without turning off the built-in switch (UK socket outlets often contain a double-pole switch) had either depostied enough metal on the insulator to become conductive, or had carbonised the insulator. Anyway, the resulting failure caused a spectacular arc that lasted for several minutes. > > Hospital-grade receptacles are distinguished by "Hospital Only" or > "Hospital Grade" printing and a green dot. $30 retail for a duplex > receptacle is pretty typical. > > Whilst browsing around, I discovered another bit of audiophile folly. I call such people 'audiophools' :-). > CRYOGENICALLY TREATED AC PLUGS AND RECEPTACLES: > > http://www.audioexcellenceaz.com/acproducts.htm > > It seems now that solid-silver speaker wire isn't sufficient. > Unfortunately, the site shown above doesn't specify what's to be used for > wiring between the plug and receptacle. It's pretty safe to assume that > it's not zip cord! Just out of curiousity, what wire is supposed to be used between the power stations (generatiing stations) and substations (transformer stations), and between the substation and your house? My view is that if your audio amplifier is so badly designed that the mains connector makes a difference to the final sound then you should start by re-designing the amplifier. -tony From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Sun Feb 19 15:02:41 2006 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 16:02:41 -0500 Subject: GEm Developer Kit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <719B8D41-9B7C-4F07-9E4E-CFE97A0A6524@mind-to-mind.com> I have a GEM Developers Kit, still shrink-wrapped in the gray box. Anyone interested? I don't want to open the shrink-wrap to see what's inside... I'd rather it be in the hands of someone that collects GEM stuff. From CaptnZilog at aol.com Sun Feb 19 16:23:20 2006 From: CaptnZilog at aol.com (Peter Hufnagel) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 17:23:20 -0500 Subject: misc other stuff, free Message-ID: <43F8EFD8.2090409@aol.com> Got some misc. stuff to get rid of: got a box full of old ISA etherepress boards, 10BT w/ BNC for Thinnet (quite a few), plus some random ISA and VESA video boards (not a lot), oh yeah, and various MFM disk controllers (ISA bus - WD1007, etc). Also have two AMI EISA 486 motherboards, and some EISA boards, adaptec2742 SCSI, EISA 10BT ethernet... if anyone still plays w/ EISA, all yours (motherboards w/ memory). Also, if anyone has any projects where you might need Pentium 133/166 chips (and 386/486's as well), I have a bunch of them (just the chips), a big bag of 1MB 30-pin SIMMs, 4116 & 4164 RAM chips (probably a couple hundred of each), 2716/32/64 EPROMs... Anyone wants some, I certainly will never use all of them that I've got. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 19 17:54:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 15:54:56 -0800 Subject: Old Japanese MPUs In-Reply-To: <3216.86.139.105.174.1140376073.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <3216.86.139.105.174.1140376073.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <200602191554560482.20590C02@10.0.0.252> Update: The MN8601ME1 chip appears to be Matsushita's version of a 12MHz HD64180--at least tracing the pins for address and data on the PROM and the clock input pin matches up with the 64180. My guess is that the MN8611A is a largish SRAM chip--I'll see if I can find something that matches up. File this one away in the "What is it?" file. Cheers, Chuck From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Sun Feb 19 21:59:42 2006 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 22:59:42 -0500 Subject: GEM Developers Kit - clarification In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0B374EBF-4AF7-4093-BD5D-4FFAA9DC6A74@mind-to-mind.com> This is an 8086 developers kit... still shrink-wrapped. From terry at terryking.us Fri Feb 17 06:12:14 2006 From: terry at terryking.us (Terry King) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 13:12:14 +0100 Subject: What to do with that old IBM Graphics Printer Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20060217130350.010ae008@mail.terryking.us> Hi Guys, Since you seem to be the ones who "didn't throw that stuff away", like me :-) Thought you might like to look at this: P.R.CRANE is a Computer Demolition Project that creates a PC-Controlled Robot Crane. You can control the crane manually with the arrow keys, have it learn a series of steps, and create and edit a robot control program. P.R.CRANE is made from an old IBM 5152 Graphics Printer, plus about $25 of parts available at the hardware store and Radio Shack You can find this at www.terryking.us (Hit the PARPORT button), and then PRCrane is a one-liner near the top. Somehow I think you'd also have an old DOS machine to run this... If not, there are ways to force XP to let go of it's IO-Priviledge compulsion... Let me know if you get one of these running... I have some photos of kids running these a few years ago. Also: Anyone have an old XT that you want to know what to do with??? I have an idea. Regards, Terry King ...On The Mediterranean in Carthage terry at terryking.us Regards, Terry King ...On The Mediterranean in Carthage, Tunisia terry at terryking.us From francisco.taboas at urv.net Fri Feb 17 08:32:10 2006 From: francisco.taboas at urv.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Francisco_T=E1boas_Touceda?=) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 15:32:10 +0100 Subject: Oscilloscope question Message-ID: <000901c633ce$f2f74a10$62241e0a@d6pc2> Hi, My name is Francisco T?boas. I read that you have the operator manual for a solartron 7150 multimeter. Im very interested on having a copy of it. Do you know where I can find it? From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Feb 17 13:41:19 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 14:41:19 -0500 Subject: KDF11-BA (M8189) 11/23+ CPU boot an ST225 on an RQDX3? Message-ID: <59AAD116-3A49-4227-ACD7-3038996890F7@xlisper.com> I just picked up a couple of KDF11-BA CPU modules. For some reason, I thought I remembered that the 11/23+ could boot an MFM drive (ST225) attached to an RQDX3 controller but it doesn't look like that from the description of the boot options on the M8189 module. Is there an alternate boot ROM that can be installed or am I just out of luck? From alexandre at e-secure.com.br Fri Feb 17 16:37:16 2006 From: alexandre at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 20:37:16 -0200 Subject: hp 10391b inverse assembler toolkit availability Message-ID: <02e701c63413$5c139cd0$01fea8c0@alpha> Mr george, did yo got the inverse assembly toolkit copy? I'm looking for that but seems impossible to be found Thanks, Alexandre Souza Brazil From blarson at blars.org Fri Feb 17 05:27:52 2006 From: blarson at blars.org (Blars Blarson) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 03:27:52 -0800 Subject: do floppy drives need a switching p/s? In-Reply-To: <20060216012335.87648.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200602171127.k1HBRqKJ004353@renig.nat.blars.org> In article <20060216012335.87648.qmail at web61020.mail.yahoo.com> you write: >I'm guessing so. Am wondering if the 1.67 amp 24 vdc >regulated wall warts from BGMicro are sufficient to >power an 8" floppy drive (NEC FD1165-A). Needs 24 vdc >@ 18 watts. Would love to devise a circuit to get the >5 vdc (@ 5 watts) off the same brick, but that may be >asking too much ;). 24v 18W is .75 A, well within the stated specs. 5v 5W is 1A, so a liniar regulator would overload the wart, besides needing to dissipate 19W. A switching regulator should have no problem doing the 24v to 5v 1A conversion. http://romanblack.com/smps.htm has some lower current examples. -- Blars Blarson blarson at blars.org http://www.blars.org/blars.html With Microsoft, failure is not an option. It is a standard feature. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 17 23:40:40 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2006 21:40:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: need docs and warez for IBM System/23 Datamaster (5322) Message-ID: <20060218054040.65754.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> good luck I know. Maybe someone could at least tell me how to get into the BASIC interpreter (if it really has one). Does this thing really have an 8085? Maybe I have to look again. Neither I nor the bloke who gave it to me could find it. Certainly has alot of strange looking IBM house #ed chips. I hate proprietary ****. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sat Feb 18 06:22:08 2006 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 07:22:08 -0500 Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: <20060217185650.D8747580DD@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060217185650.D8747580DD@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20060218071941.0447d480@boff-net.dhs.org> I was told once that the SB 16 PCI supports DOS. Though, when I thought about it, I think it only supports EMULATION in DOS since it was brought about around the time of the 64/128 PCI's. Also, the DOS support is only if that specific motherboard has SB16 DOS support as an option in the BIOS (I've actually confirmed that bit once or twice for a client). -John Boffemmyer IV At 01:56 PM 2/17/2006, you wrote: >Hello, > > Does anyone know of a Sound Blaster compatible *PCI* card that >works under DOS? I have searched Creative Labs website and it looks >like their PCI 64 / 128 sound cards will not work under DOS since there >are no DOS driver available. :( > >Thanks, > >Bryan -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.11/264 - Release Date: 2/17/2006 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 18 17:56:58 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 15:56:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: classiccmping and cold weather Message-ID: <20060218235658.73868.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> I had thought lcds get damaged if theyre not allowed to warm up after getting too cold? Dont particularly know, but would think the freezing point of that stuph is much less then h2o. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > At 9:33 PM +0100 2/18/06, lee at geekdot.com wrote: > > > What is the danger related to storing CC gear in extreme cold > >> temperatures? > > > >One thing to keep in mind is that some liquid crystal displays will be > >permanently damaged by freezing. Others will stop working, usually > >turning completely opaque or completely transparent, but will recover > >when they warm up. > > Interesting. Any idea if this would effect the original Game Boy's? > I don't know what it is about them, but I had two of them that lost > lines on the display after they sat unused for a year or two. At the > same time I'm fairly certain neither would have gotten frozen. > > Zane > > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 18 18:42:15 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2006 16:42:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: changing PC floppy port address Message-ID: <20060219004215.98993.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> the 8088 can support 64k ports, so logically the lower 16 address lines would be utilized to address them. A16-19 were multiplexed with other pin functions. IIRC the pc only allows for 256. Probably a good book on the topic is Interfacing to the IBM PC by Eggebrecht (Sams). Dont rely on that being the exact title or the way the authors name is spelled. Chances are its available on Amazonia for a song. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Feb 20 04:46:45 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 11:46:45 +0100 Subject: problem: getting the TU58 emulation working Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE06681497@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> I tried to add the TU58 emulation (of Will Kranz) to my 11/34, but it does not work. Here is what I have done so far. I added an SLU/RTC (M7856) in the 11/34, and while I worked that out, I added a M7856 page to my website. The intention is to use the added DL11-W for a connection to the TU58 emulation on a (DOS) PC. I configured the DL11-W to CSR 776500 and the vector to 300, for DD:. LTC is disabled, as this is the second DL11-W in the system. The first DL11-W is the system console port. The serial TX and RX channel are set to 9600,N,8,1. When I boot RT11 and enter .SH DEV the output shows that the DD driver is installed and sitting at 776500, with vectors 300 and 304. When the DL11-W is not installed in the system, RT11 reports DD not installed. Next, I made a cable to connect the DL11-W to the serial port of the PC. To check the cable between the PC and the M7856, I started Win98 and used a terminal program. When I enter a character in the terminal app, I can read that character in the RBUF (776502). When I deposit a value in XBUF (776506), I see that character in the receive window of the terminal application. So, the cable is fine. BTW, I use only 3 wires: RxD, TxD, and Gnd ... I boot the PC to DOS, actually Win98 command prompt, not to Win98 itself and then starting a DOS box. Then I run TU58.EXE, for example "TU58 -cTST58.TAP". TU58 seems happy, it takes a second (to format the new "tape") and then reports to be "waiting for a BREAK, or enter Escape to continue". So, I enter ESC. Now the TU58 emulation says that it is waiting for packets ... I have RT11 running on the /34. Then I enter on the PDP-11 console .DIR DD0: Nothing happens, no output appears on the TU58 emulation on the PC. RT11 seems to hang, at least when I enter text on the PDP-11 console, that text is echoed on the VT102, but that's all! Entering control-C prints ^C, but does not return me to the . prompt. BTW, the TU58.INI file has these lines: port 0 baud 9600,N,8,1 That means that I am not using interrupts (on the PC), but polling. I assume that when you enter .DIR DD0: on the PDP-11 console, the TU58 emulation should at least print a "received packets", but nothing is happening. BTW, I also tried with an "irq 4" line in the tu58.ini file, but that gives the same results. I have the feeling that I am overlooking something obvious, or doing something stupid. Should there be some data (receiving packets from the PDP-11) appearing in the TU58 emulation screen? thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Mon Feb 20 06:14:18 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 07:14:18 -0500 Subject: GEM Developers Kit - clarification In-Reply-To: <0B374EBF-4AF7-4093-BD5D-4FFAA9DC6A74@mind-to-mind.com> References: <0B374EBF-4AF7-4093-BD5D-4FFAA9DC6A74@mind-to-mind.com> Message-ID: <5E5388F0-98C3-48AE-BB29-31C62D546BE0@colourfull.com> Hi Gavin, I have a pretty nice collection of GEM software for both 68k and x86 , and would love to get this from you if still available. Thanks Rob On Feb 19, 2006, at 10:59 PM, Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote: > This is an 8086 developers kit... still shrink-wrapped. > > From rcini at optonline.net Mon Feb 20 07:12:57 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 08:12:57 -0500 Subject: need docs and warez for IBM System/23 Datamaster (5322) In-Reply-To: <20060218054040.65754.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006a01c6361f$5e2cacb0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> I had one of these a few years ago. It was indeed an 8085 processor on the planar. Regarding built-in BASIC, I'm a little rusty there but it think it's as simple as pressing a function key at start-up. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 12:41 AM To: talk Subject: need docs and warez for IBM System/23 Datamaster (5322) good luck I know. Maybe someone could at least tell me how to get into the BASIC interpreter (if it really has one). Does this thing really have an 8085? Maybe I have to look again. Neither I nor the bloke who gave it to me could find it. Certainly has alot of strange looking IBM house #ed chips. I hate proprietary ****. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From allain at panix.com Mon Feb 20 09:51:03 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 10:51:03 -0500 Subject: GEM Developers Kit - clarification References: <0B374EBF-4AF7-4093-BD5D-4FFAA9DC6A74@mind-to-mind.com> Message-ID: <003e01c63635$cb035e40$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> If No-One expresses an interest, I'd be sure to take it. Just that I think there are others that would be more interested than myself. Good Luck, John A. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gavin Thomas Nicol To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Cc: Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 10:59 PM Subject: GEM Developers Kit - clarification > This is an 8086 developers kit... still shrink-wrapped. > > From allain at panix.com Mon Feb 20 11:04:39 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:04:39 -0500 Subject: Classic computers on TV - 1972: Probe/Search References: <20060213181859.D06F05818F@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <015901c6363f$bda6c2a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> While searching for info on this neat old program, I came across a good archive of images: http://www.probecontrol.com/Episodes/bigimages/01live.jpg (image) http://www.probecontrol.com/Episodes/imagepages/01live.html (page) http://www.probecontrol.com/ (mainsite) The above image is a control room with what looks like a legit. memory tape loop, then a (possibly fabricated, likely authentic scrap) blinkenlights console, then some common looking tape drives. This was essentially a program guesstimating CIA field operations as they would be today, with sattelite communications to field agents and a lot of microminiaturization. The odd thing was the communications gear was Star Trek era, but the computers stayed 1972 level. Also introduced the concept of wearing hybrid ICs as jewelry. Wierd. "I can Google it when the tape finishes rewinding." John A. "It shouldn't be more than a hour or two." From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Feb 20 11:37:12 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 09:37:12 -0800 Subject: Classic computers on TV - 1972: Probe/Search In-Reply-To: <015901c6363f$bda6c2a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <20060213181859.D06F05818F@mail.wordstock.com> <015901c6363f$bda6c2a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <43F9FE48.2030802@msm.umr.edu> John Allain wrote: >While searching for info on this neat old program, >I came across a good archive of images: > >http://www.probecontrol.com/Episodes/bigimages/01live.jpg (image) >http://www.probecontrol.com/Episodes/imagepages/01live.html (page) >http://www.probecontrol.com/ (mainsite) > >The above image is a control room with what looks like a legit. >memory tape loop, > why was the print "kodachromed?" or red? did the photos get taken off a print, or did someone actually dub a print this bad to tape or digital and broadcast it? as horrible as old 70's stuff is, usually the awful colors are correct on the tapes as they dont fade, even if they look like hell when played back. this looks like the source is from a kodachrome print that has shifted all red. I skipped forward to see if it got better or if the lighting was responsible, but it looks like the color is from film. jim From allain at panix.com Mon Feb 20 11:49:45 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 12:49:45 -0500 Subject: Classic computers on TV - 1972: Probe/Search References: <20060213181859.D06F05818F@mail.wordstock.com><015901c6363f$bda6c2a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <43F9FE48.2030802@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <02c501c63646$09be12a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > why was the print ...red? ... ... ... Dude, home videotaping was rare even in 1976. While the control room was supposedly red-lit, alot of the images on the site show additional fade to red from either off-screen still or motion filming. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Feb 20 12:12:29 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:12:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Classic computers on TV - 1972: Probe/Search In-Reply-To: <015901c6363f$bda6c2a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <20060213181859.D06F05818F@mail.wordstock.com> <015901c6363f$bda6c2a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Feb 2006, John Allain wrote: > http://www.probecontrol.com/Episodes/bigimages/01live.jpg (image) > http://www.probecontrol.com/Episodes/imagepages/01live.html (page) > http://www.probecontrol.com/ (mainsite) > > The above image is a control room with what looks like a legit. > memory tape loop, then a (possibly fabricated, likely authentic scrap) > blinkenlights console, then some common looking tape drives. I remember watching that show when it was on the air. The blinkenlights console is from a Burroughs B220. The tape drives on the right are also Burroughs, also from a B200 series machine. You see these all the time in Irwin Allen productions. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Feb 20 12:14:56 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:14:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Classic computers on TV - 1972: Probe/Search In-Reply-To: <43F9FE48.2030802@msm.umr.edu> References: <20060213181859.D06F05818F@mail.wordstock.com> <015901c6363f$bda6c2a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <43F9FE48.2030802@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Feb 2006, jim stephens wrote: > why was the print "kodachromed?" or red? did the photos get taken off a > print, or did someone actually dub a print this bad to tape or digital > and broadcast it? This is explained on the images page on the Probecontrol site: "Why are most of the slides so red? The slides that we have scanned have turned red over the years. When they were originally purchased from Lincoln Enterprises, they appeared normal. www.film-center.com reports that 90% of most film stock is what is called "Eastman" type. Eastman type stock has been found to turn red over time. People have tried to restore such faded red film with no success. Some projectionists try color filters over the lens with mixed results. An exception to this is the Eastman 3b stock, used by MGM from 1969 to 1974. Another exception is some Eastman stock made in 1982, but nobody knows why these films hold up better. The only way to slow down this process is to store your films in as low a temperature and humidity as possible. NOW they tell us!" Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Feb 20 12:15:40 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 10:15:40 -0800 Subject: Classic computers on TV - 1972: Probe/Search (drifting off topic towards film, sorry) In-Reply-To: <02c501c63646$09be12a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <20060213181859.D06F05818F@mail.wordstock.com><015901c6363f$bda6c2a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <43F9FE48.2030802@msm.umr.edu> <02c501c63646$09be12a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <43FA074C.8020306@msm.umr.edu> John Allain wrote: >>why was the print ...red? ... ... ... >> >> > >Dude, home videotaping was rare even in 1976. >While the control room was supposedly red-lit, >alot of the images on the site show additional >fade to red from either off-screen still or motion filming. > > > > I have betamax from whatever year was the first year that such was available, probably late 76 or early 77. Those tapes have lots of video tape degradation, but they don't get red over time. Film does. this seems to be a first generation capture off of film stock, or someone scanned from film transparency, which would date the film transfer to a recent encounter of the film with the scanning. what I find unusual is that this seems not to be a capture off network tv. someone must have a film copy of this that was not properly stored. A lot of the old series that are currently broadcast were dubbed in the 80's and therefor are subject to video degradation artifacts. Also a studio which has a master print would have negative stock that could be compensated before a print is distributed if made recently and it would not have this amount of red shift in only a few years. I have several copies of 16mm Bonanza episodes made in the 70's for distribution in Brazil (portugese, puts a whole different spin on Hoss, but that's another story) which don't have this amount of shift. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 20 12:21:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 10:21:03 -0800 Subject: Classic computers on TV - 1972: Probe/Search In-Reply-To: <43F9FE48.2030802@msm.umr.edu> References: <20060213181859.D06F05818F@mail.wordstock.com> <015901c6363f$bda6c2a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> <43F9FE48.2030802@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200602201021030730.244DB664@10.0.0.252> On 2/20/2006 at 9:37 AM jim stephens wrote: >why was the print "kodachromed?" or red? did the photos get taken off a >print, or did >someone actually dub a print this bad to tape or digital and broadcast it? This was the actual lighting done on the filming--I recall it quite well. One of the more common techniques in the "disco era" of TV and not uncommon even today--only the color has changed. Consider the blue, blue, blue lab lighting of CSI, for example. That being said, the technical experts probably didn't consider how terrible a choice of red for work lighting would be as a practical matter. On the other hand, I suppose it would have been easier on the makeup department as red lighting tends to hide facial blemishes! Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 20 12:35:22 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 10:35:22 -0800 Subject: Repairing wall warts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602201035220726.245AD1D7@10.0.0.252> On 2/19/2006 at 8:47 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Well, if the insulation carbonised and became slightly conductive, it >could pass enough leakage current to trip an RCD/RCCB/ELCB/whatever it's >called thise week. Slightly OT: Back in the 1950's, aluminum/aluminium was introduced as residential house wiring in the US. As it had been a proven medium for long-distance power transmission, the material was viewed as a more economical alternative to copper. Along with the new wiring, new receptacles with a different clamping mechanism were specified. Unfortunately, many home builders (and inspectors) were completely ignorant of the second part of the equation, with the result that cheaper copper-based receptacles were introdced in many thousands of new homes. Eventually, the combination formed an ohmic contact of not insignificant resistance and a rash electrical fires ensued. Public safety advisories were issued and many electricians made a nice living retrofitting the proper fixtures. One alternative was a copper-to aluminum pigtail that was attached by means of a special crimping tool, allowing the existing fixture to be used. I used to run across the "intended for Al wiring" fixtures at the hardware store quite often, but I haven't seen one offered for sale in quite a few years. Cheers, Chuck From marvin at rain.org Mon Feb 20 12:47:38 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 10:47:38 -0800 Subject: What to do with that old IBM Graphics Printer Message-ID: <43FA0ECA.23FC9DD0@rain.org> Fascinating project, and it looks like your thrust is youth education. Looking at the PDF of "Computer Demolition", this quote really caught my eye: ?Will American kids be Inventors in 10 years, or just operate appliances designed elsewhere?? and, by the way, ?Whatever happened to the Kid who took Alarm Clocks apart to discover how they worked?? Part of the answer to your quote is that those people are right here :)! > Since you seem to be the ones who "didn't throw that stuff away", like me :-) > > Thought you might like to look at this: > > P.R.CRANE is a Computer Demolition Project that creates a PC-Controlled > Robot Crane. > > You can control the crane manually with the arrow keys, have it learn a > series of steps, and create and edit a robot control program. P.R.CRANE is > made from an old IBM 5152 Graphics Printer, plus about $25 of parts > available at the hardware store and Radio Shack > > You can find this at www.terryking.us (Hit the PARPORT button), and then > PRCrane is a one-liner near the top. > > Somehow I think you'd also have an old DOS machine to run this... If not, > there are ways to force > XP to let go of it's IO-Priviledge compulsion... > > Let me know if you get one of these running... I have some photos of kids > running these a few years ago. > > Also: Anyone have an old XT that you want to know what to do with??? I have > an idea. > > Regards, Terry King ...On The Mediterranean in Carthage > terry at terryking.us From allain at panix.com Mon Feb 20 13:22:59 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 14:22:59 -0500 Subject: What to do with that old IBM Graphics Printer References: <43FA0ECA.23FC9DD0@rain.org> Message-ID: <001b01c63653$26c70340$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> >> P.R.CRANE is a Computer Demolition Project that creates a >> PC-Controlled Robot Crane. Be aware that this magazine debuted this winter: "Robot", botmag.com. Sold over the counter at Barnes & Noble for one. John A. From jonathan.laventhol at imagination.com Mon Feb 20 14:17:15 2006 From: jonathan.laventhol at imagination.com (Jonathan Laventhol) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 20:17:15 +0000 Subject: Australian rescue for DEC VAX 11/750, 730, and PDP-11? Message-ID: <43FA23CB.9050701@imagination.com> Hello Friends Anybody able to rescue some good-looking DEC things in Sydney? They're being listed as skipped on the 27th Feb. See Ebay 8769280221 If I wasn't so far away ... Regards, Jonathan. From news at computercollector.com Mon Feb 20 16:09:42 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 17:09:42 -0500 Subject: Wanted to buy (or trade) Message-ID: <002501c6366a$59b97f00$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I'm looking to buy a Kyocera "Keytronics 85". This was the base model for the Tandy Model 100 / Olivetta Model 10 / NEC PC-8201 portables from 1983. I have the Tandy Model 100 but would prefer the Kyocera if anyone prefers to trade. Contact me OFF-LIST please. :) ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Feb 20 16:17:47 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 17:17:47 -0500 Subject: What to do with that old IBM Graphics Printer In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20060217130350.010ae008@mail.terryking.us> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20060217130350.010ae008@mail.terryking.us> Message-ID: <200602201717.47206.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Friday 17 February 2006 07:12 am, Terry King wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Since you seem to be the ones who "didn't throw that stuff away", like me > :-) > > Thought you might like to look at this: > > P.R.CRANE is a Computer Demolition Project that creates a PC-Controlled > Robot Crane. > > You can control the crane manually with the arrow keys, have it learn a > series of steps, and create and edit a robot control program. P.R.CRANE is > made from an old IBM 5152 Graphics Printer, plus about $25 of parts > available at the hardware store and Radio Shack > > You can find this at www.terryking.us (Hit the PARPORT button), and then > PRCrane is a one-liner near the top. > > Somehow I think you'd also have an old DOS machine to run this... If not, > there are ways to force > XP to let go of it's IO-Priviledge compulsion... Old dos machines are easy enough... > Let me know if you get one of these running... I have some photos of kids > running these a few years ago. They online anyplace? > Also: Anyone have an old XT that you want to know what to do with??? I have > an idea. I have enough of them in storage, what's your idea? Also got a bunch of 286, 386 boards, and a few 486 systems that I'm wondering what I'm gonna do with them... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Feb 20 16:48:10 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 16:48:10 -0600 Subject: Repairing wall warts Message-ID: >I don't understand how a receptacle can trip a circuit breaker. At worst, >it would seem that it would fail to make contact or have high resistance >contacts. I don't understand the etiology of the problem myself, but that is what we heard back after the district sent in several electricians. Several possibilities: breakdown of insulation or impurities in insulation, mechanical failure due to stressed parts, or transmission error (district says: shoddy wiring, [they even used the] cheap plugs - the part in brackets gets dropped out, etc.) Anyway, there is a very noticeable difference between the cheapie wiring supplies and the nicer "commercial grade" stuff, similar to the difference between a modern cheap PeeCee and a real computer. From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 20 16:58:20 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 16:58:20 -0600 Subject: Classic computers on TV - 1972: Probe/Search In-Reply-To: <015901c6363f$bda6c2a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> References: <20060213181859.D06F05818F@mail.wordstock.com> <015901c6363f$bda6c2a0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <43FA498C.505@oldskool.org> John Allain wrote: > The odd thing was the communications > gear was Star Trek era, but the computers stayed 1972 level. Wasn't that common up until the 1980s? I remember laughing at an old Buck Rogers episode (Gil Gerard era) last year because the main communication device was quite obviously a Commodore PET... didn't even try to hide the cassette lid/buttons either. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 20 17:01:11 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 17:01:11 -0600 Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: <20060217185650.D8747580DD@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060217185650.D8747580DD@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <43FA4A37.6000003@oldskool.org> Bryan Pope wrote: > > Does anyone know of a Sound Blaster compatible *PCI* card that > works under DOS? I have searched Creative Labs website and it looks > like their PCI 64 / 128 sound cards will not work under DOS since there > are no DOS driver available. :( AFAIK it is either impossible to have true legacy support provided to DOS via a PCI card, or at least very difficult. Every single PCI card I've worked with that claimed legacy support did so via the use of some sort of program. The Creative programs were the worst; they were resident, and some required protected mode. The best was a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz, which used a .COM file to enable it, and I don't think it was resident. But no, I've never seen any PCI sound card just work perfectly without a TSR or .SYS driver. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Mon Feb 20 17:11:27 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 23:11:27 -0000 Subject: Oscilloscope question References: <000901c633ce$f2f74a10$62241e0a@d6pc2> Message-ID: <003001c63672$fa6480a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi Francisco, yes I have a copy of the manual, but we are painting the house at the moment, and most of my manuals are in storage. I am happy to scan it for you when I find it again, but it my be some months. Regards Jim Beacon. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Francisco T?boas Touceda" To: Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 2:32 PM Subject: Oscilloscope question Hi, My name is Francisco T?boas. I read that you have the operator manual for a solartron 7150 multimeter. Im very interested on having a copy of it. Do you know where I can find it? -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.11/264 - Release Date: 17/02/06 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 20 17:25:00 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 23:25:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: changing PC floppy port address In-Reply-To: <20060219004215.98993.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 18, 6 04:42:15 pm Message-ID: > > the 8088 can support 64k ports, so logically the lower > 16 address lines would be utilized to address them. > A16-19 were multiplexed with other pin functions. IIRC > the pc only allows for 256. Probably a good book on The PC hardware outputs all of the address lines onto the slot, and an ISA card can decode A0-A15 during I/O operaitons. The thing is that, in general, IBM only decoded the bottom 10 lines (A0-A9). So most cards _and the I/O ports in chips on the motherboard_ appear 64 times in the I/O map, once for every combination of the A10-A15. But there's nothing to stop _you_ decoding all 16 lines, provided you make sure your card avoids all the ghosts of other cards. If you stick to the space reserved for prototype cards (and it's ghosts), you should be safe. A few IBM cards decoded more of the lines. I forget which ones, but I think it's one of the 'lab I/O' cards, either the GPIB card or the data acquisition adapter. And IIRC, the addresses for the second, third, etc card of the same type differed in the values of some of A10-A15 -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 20 17:30:28 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 23:30:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: What to do with that old IBM Graphics Printer In-Reply-To: <43FA0ECA.23FC9DD0@rain.org> from "Marvin Johnston" at Feb 20, 6 10:47:38 am Message-ID: > > > Fascinating project, and it looks like your thrust is youth education. > Looking at the PDF of "Computer Demolition", this quote really caught my > eye: > > =94Will American kids be Inventors in 10 years, or just operate appliance= > s > designed elsewhere?=94 and, by the way, =94Whatever happened to the Kid w= > ho Certainly in the UK (this is not an American-only list :-)), the educational system seems designed to remove curiousity from children. Kids are not encouraged to take things apart, to try things, etc (mostly for a number of IMHO bogus safety reasons -- put it this way, the cuts I got from tools as a 5-yera-old kid don't seem to have done me lasting damage!). And fortunately, I didn't let the educational system ruin me. > took Alarm Clocks apart to discover how they worked?=94 > > Part of the answer to your quote is that those people are right here :)! Indeed yst.... And I've not stopped taking things apart -- even alarm clocks -- as I got older. The only difference is that now I tend to get them back together again... -tony From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Feb 20 17:59:23 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 17:59:23 -0600 Subject: Old computers in Movies Message-ID: <015e01c63679$add8ff20$5a406b43@66067007> Did anyone else see the PET and other classic computers in the Terminator 3 movie last night? It was in the underground bunker shot. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 20 19:28:01 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 19:28:01 Subject: Commodore 64 free to a good home Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060220192801.45e7ea56@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> FYI >Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2006 09:02:32 -0500 >From: ROBERT KRYL >Subject: Commodore 64 free to a good home >To: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com >X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 >X-MSMail-priority: Normal >Original-recipient: rfc822;rigdonj at cfl.rr.com > >Hello, Joe, > >We are moving from Delray Beach to Minnesota, and we must find a good home >for a much loved Commodore 64 that has (I am told) virtually all the >programs available, monitor, cpu---the works. > >We move next weekend, and finally my guy has agreed to leave it in Florida >(between us we have three others!) > >If interested, pleas let me know asap! If you know someone else who is, >please pass the word quickly! Thank you. > >Cherie cboen at charter.cnet > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 20 18:54:55 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 16:54:55 -0800 Subject: changing PC floppy port address In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602201654550957.25B64F0D@10.0.0.252> On 2/20/2006 at 11:25 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >A few IBM cards decoded more of the lines. I forget which ones, but I >think it's one of the 'lab I/O' cards, either the GPIB card or the data >acquisition adapter. And IIRC, the addresses for the second, third, etc >card of the same type differed in the values of some of A10-A15 The DAA decoded 12 bits of the address bus and so allowed up to 4 DAAs. Same for the cluster adapter and GPIB. AFAIK, no XT adapter decoded all 16 bits of the address bus, though some third-party devices certainly did. Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Feb 20 19:01:57 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 19:01:57 -0600 Subject: Australian rescue for DEC VAX 11/750, 730, and PDP-11? References: <43FA23CB.9050701@imagination.com> Message-ID: <014301c63682$69f52640$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> I received a private email this morning from the seller - BEFORE he listed it on ebay. He was asking for help getting rid of the gear "hopefully to a good home/collector". However, before I could respond tonight, he emailed me again saying he listed it on ebay. I doubt he'll have trouble disposing of it at this point. Unfortunately, it could be to a gold smelter. Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonathan Laventhol" To: Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 2:17 PM Subject: Australian rescue for DEC VAX 11/750, 730, and PDP-11? > Hello Friends > > Anybody able to rescue some good-looking DEC things in Sydney? > They're being listed as skipped on the 27th Feb. > See Ebay 8769280221 > > If I wasn't so far away ... > > Regards, > Jonathan. > > From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Feb 20 19:06:52 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 01:06:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: classiccmping and cold weather In-Reply-To: References: <2751.86.139.105.174.1140294811.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Feb 2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> One thing to keep in mind is that some liquid crystal displays will be >> permanently damaged by freezing. Others will stop working, usually >> turning completely opaque or completely transparent, but will recover >> when they warm up. > > Interesting. Any idea if this would effect the original Game Boy's? I don't > know what it is about them, but I had two of them that lost lines on the > display after they sat unused for a year or two. At the same time I'm fairly > certain neither would have gotten frozen. My videogame-collecting roommate tells me this is a very common problem with the original GameBoy design; according to him, most units would lose lines after a few years. Alexey From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Feb 20 19:15:31 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 19:15:31 -0600 Subject: Important -> WAS Australian rescue References: <43FA23CB.9050701@imagination.com> <014301c63682$69f52640$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Message-ID: <015101c63684$4f916730$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> I just got another email from the seller..... If you are a collector and can keep the collection together, or at the least make sure it goes to collector/hobbyists, make SURE to email the seller immediately regardless of the auction. Jay From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Feb 20 19:09:44 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 20:09:44 -0500 Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? References: <20060217185650.D8747580DD@mail.wordstock.com> <43FA4A37.6000003@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <002801c63683$80b63bc0$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 6:01 PM Subject: Re: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? The Aureal PCI cards had DOS support, and worked with MIDI also if you have the daughtercard installed. Do you have a PCI only machine you are trying to use? > Bryan Pope wrote: > > > > Does anyone know of a Sound Blaster compatible *PCI* card that > > works under DOS? I have searched Creative Labs website and it looks > > like their PCI 64 / 128 sound cards will not work under DOS since there > > are no DOS driver available. :( > > AFAIK it is either impossible to have true legacy support provided to > DOS via a PCI card, or at least very difficult. Every single PCI card > I've worked with that claimed legacy support did so via the use of some > sort of program. The Creative programs were the worst; they were > resident, and some required protected mode. The best was a Turtle Beach > Santa Cruz, which used a .COM file to enable it, and I don't think it > was resident. > > But no, I've never seen any PCI sound card just work perfectly without a > TSR or .SYS driver. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From recycler at swbell.net Mon Feb 20 20:48:49 2006 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 20:48:49 -0600 Subject: [Fwd: GB> Teletype manuals.] Message-ID: <43FA7F91.7000102@swbell.net> not mine, see below.. From: Bob Roehrig -------- Original Message -------- Subject: GB> Teletype manuals. Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 13:04:23 -0600 (CST) From: Bob Roehrig To: glowbugs , Boatanchors Cleaning out and downsizing, I have over a dozen original Teletype manuals for model 28 equipment. They are adjustments, operation, parts, for typing units, keyboards, stunt boxes, TD's, reperf, etc. Free to anyone that wants them but shipping won't be cheap. All or none - I am not going to pick and choose. Bob Roehrig Aurora University Telecom dept. broehrig at aurora.edu K9EUI W9ZGP WC2XSR/11 WD2XSH/19 630-844-4898 fax 630-844-4222 "Nostalgia is a thing of the past" From news at computercollector.com Mon Feb 20 20:58:58 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:58:58 -0500 Subject: '82 issues of Byte? Message-ID: <004601c63692$c2e6f980$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Hi all, I need to search through all the 1982 issues of Byte for a specific article co-authored by Dave Winer. I don't know the article title of the issue number. All I know is that the article included one of the earliest references to a "laptop" computer, according to Dave himself. The archives on Byte.com only go back to 1994. Does anyone know if the older issues are scanned anyplace? Or if anyone has the issues, would you help me out by doing a quick flip-through for the article in question? (Mike N., perhaps you have them?) Much thanks, - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon Feb 20 21:00:31 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (C. H. Dickman) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 22:00:31 -0500 Subject: Gold and other stuff in old computers, was Re: Australian rescue for DEC VAX 11/750, 730, and PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <014301c63682$69f52640$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> References: <43FA23CB.9050701@imagination.com> <014301c63682$69f52640$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Message-ID: <43FA824F.8080604@nktelco.net> Jay West wrote: > Unfortunately, it could be to a gold smelter. Is there a financially significant precious metal content to old computer equipment? When you factor in the hazardous materials disposal issues such as lead, it would seem a losing proposition. I can almost see a scrapper saying he would take everything except the boards. -chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 20 21:09:01 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 19:09:01 -0800 Subject: Gold and other stuff in old computers, was Re: Australian rescue for DEC VAX 11/750, 730, and PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <43FA824F.8080604@nktelco.net> References: <43FA23CB.9050701@imagination.com> <014301c63682$69f52640$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> <43FA824F.8080604@nktelco.net> Message-ID: At 10:00 PM -0500 2/20/06, C. H. Dickman wrote: >Jay West wrote: >> Unfortunately, it could be to a gold smelter. >Is there a financially significant precious metal content to old >computer equipment? When you factor in the hazardous materials >disposal issues such as lead, it would seem a losing proposition. I >can almost see a scrapper saying he would take everything except the >boards. The scrapper that I know was specifically after the boards (he was doing this for his retirement, and I've heard he had to stop a couple months ago after a heart attack). He'd strip all the stuff down to the boards, and even remove parts that weren't worth it from the boards. Then he'd stick the boards into a huge box on a pallet. Once the box was full he'd ship it to the smelter (or wherever it is they melt the stuff down and extract the metals). I believe he was dealing primarily with medical and test equipment, though I did get my DEC Pro 380 from him. He was doing this in his garage, and it had to be seen to be believed how densely stuff was packed in there. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rcini at optonline.net Mon Feb 20 21:10:56 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 22:10:56 -0500 Subject: '82 issues of Byte? In-Reply-To: <004601c63692$c2e6f980$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <008601c63694$6ecdab30$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Evan: I have a complete run of BYTEs from the first issue until 1988. I looked in my Excel spreadsheet of "interesting articles" and the only thing I saw was a series of articles on the Atari co-authored by "Winner". I do not track first names in my spreadsheet. It might take me a day or two. Any more clues to help nail down the issue? Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 9:59 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: '82 issues of Byte? Hi all, I need to search through all the 1982 issues of Byte for a specific article co-authored by Dave Winer. I don't know the article title of the issue number. All I know is that the article included one of the earliest references to a "laptop" computer, according to Dave himself. The archives on Byte.com only go back to 1994. Does anyone know if the older issues are scanned anyplace? Or if anyone has the issues, would you help me out by doing a quick flip-through for the article in question? (Mike N., perhaps you have them?) Much thanks, - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Mon Feb 20 21:19:06 2006 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 19:19:06 -0800 Subject: '82 issues of Byte? In-Reply-To: <008601c63694$6ecdab30$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <003101c63695$93472c60$04000100@NFORCE4> I concur with Richard. I've got all of the 1982 issues pulled and I didn't see anything in the ToC that looked like it matched. More detail would help. . . Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 7:11 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: '82 issues of Byte? Evan: I have a complete run of BYTEs from the first issue until 1988. I looked in my Excel spreadsheet of "interesting articles" and the only thing I saw was a series of articles on the Atari co-authored by "Winner". I do not track first names in my spreadsheet. It might take me a day or two. Any more clues to help nail down the issue? Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 9:59 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: '82 issues of Byte? Hi all, I need to search through all the 1982 issues of Byte for a specific article co-authored by Dave Winer. I don't know the article title of the issue number. All I know is that the article included one of the earliest references to a "laptop" computer, according to Dave himself. The archives on Byte.com only go back to 1994. Does anyone know if the older issues are scanned anyplace? Or if anyone has the issues, would you help me out by doing a quick flip-through for the article in question? (Mike N., perhaps you have them?) Much thanks, - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From news at computercollector.com Mon Feb 20 21:21:34 2006 From: news at computercollector.com (news at computercollector.com) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 22:21:34 -0500 Subject: '82 issues of Byte? In-Reply-To: <008601c63694$6ecdab30$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <004701c63695$eb1cfb90$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Rich, I'll email you off-list. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 10:11 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: '82 issues of Byte? Evan: I have a complete run of BYTEs from the first issue until 1988. I looked in my Excel spreadsheet of "interesting articles" and the only thing I saw was a series of articles on the Atari co-authored by "Winner". I do not track first names in my spreadsheet. It might take me a day or two. Any more clues to help nail down the issue? Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 9:59 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: '82 issues of Byte? Hi all, I need to search through all the 1982 issues of Byte for a specific article co-authored by Dave Winer. I don't know the article title of the issue number. All I know is that the article included one of the earliest references to a "laptop" computer, according to Dave himself. The archives on Byte.com only go back to 1994. Does anyone know if the older issues are scanned anyplace? Or if anyone has the issues, would you help me out by doing a quick flip-through for the article in question? (Mike N., perhaps you have them?) Much thanks, - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From news at computercollector.com Mon Feb 20 21:23:06 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 22:23:06 -0500 Subject: '82 issues of Byte? In-Reply-To: <003101c63695$93472c60$04000100@NFORCE4> Message-ID: <004901c63696$22147c40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Okay. Well, Dave said it's "probably" 1982. If no one can find it, then maybe try 1983. Muchos gracias! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Erik Klein Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 10:19 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: '82 issues of Byte? I concur with Richard. I've got all of the 1982 issues pulled and I didn't see anything in the ToC that looked like it matched. More detail would help. . . Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 7:11 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: '82 issues of Byte? Evan: I have a complete run of BYTEs from the first issue until 1988. I looked in my Excel spreadsheet of "interesting articles" and the only thing I saw was a series of articles on the Atari co-authored by "Winner". I do not track first names in my spreadsheet. It might take me a day or two. Any more clues to help nail down the issue? Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 9:59 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: '82 issues of Byte? Hi all, I need to search through all the 1982 issues of Byte for a specific article co-authored by Dave Winer. I don't know the article title of the issue number. All I know is that the article included one of the earliest references to a "laptop" computer, according to Dave himself. The archives on Byte.com only go back to 1994. Does anyone know if the older issues are scanned anyplace? Or if anyone has the issues, would you help me out by doing a quick flip-through for the article in question? (Mike N., perhaps you have them?) Much thanks, - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 21 01:38:08 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 01:38:08 -0600 Subject: What to do with that old IBM Graphics Printer In-Reply-To: <43FA0ECA.23FC9DD0@rain.org> References: <43FA0ECA.23FC9DD0@rain.org> Message-ID: <43FAC360.4090905@oldskool.org> Marvin Johnston wrote: > Fascinating project, and it looks like your thrust is youth education. > Looking at the PDF of "Computer Demolition", this quote really caught my > eye: > > ?Will American kids be Inventors in 10 years, or just operate appliances > designed elsewhere?? and, by the way, ?Whatever happened to the Kid who > took Alarm Clocks apart to discover how they worked?? > > Part of the answer to your quote is that those people are right here :)! I was never a hardware tinkerer, but even as a kid I was always fascinating by programming. I'm still "tinkering" with 8088 assembler decades later because it is a finite goal. All is not lost: I got my 6-yr-old to sit down and play Rocky's Boots with me, and Great Lincoln's Mullet he took to it like a fish to water. He can now describe AND, OR, and NOT gates, and also CLOCKS and DELAYS (although he may not use all of the correct terms, but hey, he's six). I'm going to try to get my 9-yr-old to do the same :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 21 01:48:16 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 01:48:16 -0600 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90602131138r4ff57282q20bfcde5703d8768@mail.gmail.com> References: <43F0294F.3030705@oldskool.org> <1e1fc3e90602131138r4ff57282q20bfcde5703d8768@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43FAC5C0.7090306@oldskool.org> Glen Slick wrote: > On 2/12/06, Jim Leonard wrote: >> I just want a few tubes of these to populate the board, I'm not looking >> for a box of 'em :-) Any pointers? > > www.unicornelectronics.com > 511000-100 $1.89 quanity 25-99 This was a great source of memory, thank you. Now I'm in need of an 8087, and I am *completely* coming up short on ebay, jdr, unicorn, and any other place I can find. Anyone know a source for these? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From Bob.Adamson at sli-institute.ac.uk Tue Feb 21 02:28:28 2006 From: Bob.Adamson at sli-institute.ac.uk (Bob Adamson) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 08:28:28 -0000 Subject: Repairing wall warts Message-ID: <7D7A68F7F09DAE40AE47E55F7F601D8B834189@SLISERVER21.sli-institute.ac.uk> > > I don't understand how a receptacle can trip a circuit breaker. At > worst, > > it would seem that it would fail to make contact or have high resistance > > contacts. > > Well, if the insulation carbonised and became slightly conductive, it > could pass enough leakage current to trip an RCD/RCCB/ELCB/whatever it's > called thise week. > > I once witnessed a metalclad socket outlet fail in the UK. Apparently, > repeated unplging of high-power devices without turning off the built-in > switch (UK socket outlets often contain a double-pole switch) had either > depostied enough metal on the insulator to become conductive, or had > carbonised the insulator. Anyway, the resulting failure caused a > spectacular arc that lasted for several minutes. I've seen many (240V) plugs, sockets and lighting fixtures fail similarly, in several cases becoming conductive enough to blow the circuit fuse, considerably more difficult than unbalancing a leakage trip. It's not at all uncommon in damp environments and another cause (though uncommon nowadays) is where an old-fashioned piece of fuse-wire has previously vapourised to produce a slightly conductive film. Bob Adamson From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 21 03:20:59 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 01:20:59 -0800 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <43FAC5C0.7090306@oldskool.org> References: <43F0294F.3030705@oldskool.org> <1e1fc3e90602131138r4ff57282q20bfcde5703d8768@mail.gmail.com> <43FAC5C0.7090306@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200602210120590055.27859977@10.0.0.252> On 2/21/2006 at 1:48 AM Jim Leonard wrote: >Now I'm in need of an 8087, and I am *completely* coming up short on >ebay, jdr, unicorn, and any other place I can find. Anyone know a >source for these? Try this guy: http://www.cpushack.net/trade.html From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 21 03:25:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 01:25:52 -0800 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <43FAC5C0.7090306@oldskool.org> References: <43F0294F.3030705@oldskool.org> <1e1fc3e90602131138r4ff57282q20bfcde5703d8768@mail.gmail.com> <43FAC5C0.7090306@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200602210125520009.278A11CF@10.0.0.252> On 2/21/2006 at 1:48 AM Jim Leonard wrote: >Now I'm in need of an 8087, and I am *completely* coming up short on >ebay, jdr, unicorn, and any other place I can find. Anyone know a >source for these? Also: http://www.computerpartsgalore.com/processors.htm From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 03:48:44 2006 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 17:48:44 +0800 Subject: Australian rescue for DEC VAX 11/750, 730, and PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <014301c63682$69f52640$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> References: <43FA23CB.9050701@imagination.com> <014301c63682$69f52640$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> Message-ID: I'm willing to take all the RX01/02 or anly RL01/02 especially if it's 220/240VAC power (pls confirm) and a couple of VT100s..(depends on the actual number). However I'll need to leech on a prime coordinator in order to ship to me (Malaysia), which is quite a bit nearer from Oz to US... On 2/21/06, Jay West wrote: > I received a private email this morning from the seller - BEFORE he listed > it on ebay. He was asking for help getting rid of the gear "hopefully to a > good home/collector". However, before I could respond tonight, he emailed me > again saying he listed it on ebay. > > I doubt he'll have trouble disposing of it at this point. Unfortunately, it > could be to a gold smelter. > > Jay West > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jonathan Laventhol" > To: > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 2:17 PM > Subject: Australian rescue for DEC VAX 11/750, 730, and PDP-11? > > > > Hello Friends > > > > Anybody able to rescue some good-looking DEC things in Sydney? > > They're being listed as skipped on the 27th Feb. > > See Ebay 8769280221 > > > > If I wasn't so far away ... > > > > Regards, > > Jonathan. > > > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 04:02:12 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 23:02:12 +1300 Subject: Old computers in Movies In-Reply-To: <015e01c63679$add8ff20$5a406b43@66067007> References: <015e01c63679$add8ff20$5a406b43@66067007> Message-ID: On 2/21/06, Keys wrote: > Did anyone else see the PET and other classic computers in the Terminator 3 > movie last night? It was in the underground bunker shot. I didn't see it last night, but I did notice it the first time I saw the movie. -ethan From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Feb 21 08:50:36 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 09:50:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: <002801c63683$80b63bc0$72781941@game> Message-ID: <20060221145036.778D0580D0@mail.wordstock.com> > > > The Aureal PCI cards had DOS support, and worked with MIDI also if you have > the daughtercard installed. Do you have a PCI only machine you are trying to > use? > Yes.. I would like to use it as a DOS (and Windows, but that isn't really an issue) gaming machine.. Thanks, Bryan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 21 09:20:47 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:20:47 +0000 Subject: Available: Canadian Superplus IV machine + bits (London, UK) Message-ID: <43FB2FCF.3080706@yahoo.co.uk> Hi all, I've just been asked by the owner of this to ask around to see if anyone wants to give it a good home: Superplus IV machine from 1982 (integrated screen, separate keyboard) Daisywheel printer + hood 13 AES printwheels and 7 AES Ribbons Original AES Operator Instruction Manual and Software Manual (both A4 ringbound) 7 Master and 3 working system/software discs . 30 AES Brand and 10 RPS Brand blank disks, formatted for AES and still shrink wrapped. AES disk box. The owner's tested the machine and it all seems to be working. Unfortunately we've got enough machines of this sort of class at the museum - it sounds like a nice box though, so hopefully someone can give it a good home! Contact Madeleine Melling at: mlamelling at gmail.com cheers, Jules From jplist at kiwigeek.com Tue Feb 21 10:52:08 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:52:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: Transferring from PC to PDP11, perhaps virtual devices? Message-ID: Greetings all; I am trying to help out a friend with a data transfer process to simplify his business. The goal is to move a couple hundred Megs of data from a PC to a PDP11. Currently he has a DOS box with a Pertec controller, which he uses to copy data to a 9 track, and then pulls off on the PDP. This seems... inelegant, I can only assume there is a simpler way. I'm sure I've seen mention of 'virtual devices' on the list where a PC is running some software that makes it appear as a storage device to a piece of vintage hardware, but my Googling is making no headway in finding anything useful towards this end. Am I using the wrong terminology? Could someone point me in the right direction? Any advice? The machine in question is an 11/34 (An SMS FWT machine, actually), which has an 8" drive (unsure of it's model, it is built into the cabinet), Winchester, and a Pertec interfaced 9 track. Thanks; JP From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 21 11:13:02 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 11:13:02 -0600 Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: <20060221145036.778D0580D0@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060221145036.778D0580D0@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <43FB4A1E.2010509@oldskool.org> Bryan Pope wrote: >> >> The Aureal PCI cards had DOS support, and worked with MIDI also if you have IIRC the Aureal support was fairly poor. Just a warning. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 21 11:40:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 09:40:08 -0800 Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: <43FB4A1E.2010509@oldskool.org> References: <20060221145036.778D0580D0@mail.wordstock.com> <43FB4A1E.2010509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200602210940080947.294E9F09@10.0.0.252> On 2/21/2006 at 11:13 AM Jim Leonard wrote: >IIRC the Aureal support was fairly poor. Just a warning. Any PCI card is probably not going to be able to support legacy DMA type transfers, but siimple SB port 220H I/O shouldn't be a problem with PCI cards that do emulation right. There have been some discussions about PCI sound cards in real mode DOS on the vintage gaming fora. Cheers, Chuck From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 11:48:28 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:48:28 -0500 Subject: Transferring from PC to PDP11, perhaps virtual devices? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/21/06, JP Hindin wrote: > > Greetings all; > > I am trying to help out a friend with a data transfer process to simplify > his business. The goal is to move a couple hundred Megs of data from a PC > to a PDP11. > Currently he has a DOS box with a Pertec controller, which he uses to copy > data to a 9 track, and then pulls off on the PDP. > This seems... inelegant, I can only assume there is a simpler way. > > I'm sure I've seen mention of 'virtual devices' on the list where a PC is > running some software that makes it appear as a storage device to a piece > of vintage hardware, but my Googling is making no headway in finding > anything useful towards this end. > > Am I using the wrong terminology? Could someone point me in the right > direction? Any advice? ethernet and ftp? or enen nfs > > The machine in question is an 11/34 (An SMS FWT machine, actually), which > has an 8" drive (unsure of it's model, it is built into the cabinet), > Winchester, and a Pertec interfaced 9 track. > > Thanks; > JP > > From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 11:49:25 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 17:49:25 +0000 Subject: Vaxstations in London Message-ID: <26c11a640602210949v7db62ddo@mail.gmail.com> Due to impending job change/move I need to slim down my collection there will be quite a few machines. Some of the bigger stuff I need to put on ebay as I really need the money. I will be putting a 4000/500 with 9 dssi drives and a 4000/700 with 12 dssi drives on ebay towards the end of the month. I have gone through some machines there will be more : Vaxstation 3100/30 12mb unknown drive Vaxstation 3100/76 2xRZ74 16mb Floppy Vaxstation 3100/30 2gb drive 8mb Floppy Vaxstation 3100/40 3x100mb drive 32mb ram missing front flap Microvax 3100 16mb 2xRz25 3.2gb Vaxstation 3100/76 floppy 16mb 500mb drive Vax storage expansion box no drives but possible with the cable if I can find it. These are all free to pick up from Soho London. Dan From rtellason at blazenet.net Tue Feb 21 11:54:48 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:54:48 -0500 Subject: Gold and other stuff in old computers, was Re: Australian rescue for DEC VAX 11/750, 730, and PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <43FA824F.8080604@nktelco.net> References: <43FA23CB.9050701@imagination.com> <014301c63682$69f52640$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> <43FA824F.8080604@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <200602211254.48117.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 20 February 2006 10:00 pm, C. H. Dickman wrote: > Jay West wrote: > > Unfortunately, it could be to a gold smelter. > > Is there a financially significant precious metal content to old > computer equipment? When you factor in the hazardous materials disposal > issues such as lead, it would seem a losing proposition. I can almost > see a scrapper saying he would take everything except the boards. > > -chuck I had a guy who came to my shop back when that asked about scrap board, for that specific reason. I didn't have any to give him, figuring that anything I had kicking around I'd be pulling components off of, but it's no surprise. Saw a thing on TV a while back about old cell phones and such where this stuff was packed up and shipped off to China, where peasants were doing the extraction, in nasty-looking chemical brews sitting outside on the ground. One of the comments in there was how they were drastically shortening their lives by doing this stuff, but figured that it was worth it for their families. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 21 12:05:29 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 12:05:29 -0600 Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: <200602210940080947.294E9F09@10.0.0.252> References: <20060221145036.778D0580D0@mail.wordstock.com> <43FB4A1E.2010509@oldskool.org> <200602210940080947.294E9F09@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43FB5669.7000004@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2/21/2006 at 11:13 AM Jim Leonard wrote: > >> IIRC the Aureal support was fairly poor. Just a warning. > > Any PCI card is probably not going to be able to support legacy DMA type > transfers, but siimple SB port 220H I/O shouldn't be a problem with PCI It's not, but without DMA the cards are nearly useless. It limits them to FM/MIDI synth output only. No digitized sound output whatsoever. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 12:17:07 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:17:07 +0000 Subject: Perq Boot disks Message-ID: <26c11a640602211017j51279264l@mail.gmail.com> I have a Perq 2 which will not boot from it's hard drive. I don't know which OS is installed on it either. If I send out some floppies can anyone copy a boot/maintenance disk for POS and MPOS Thanks Dan From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 12:22:56 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:22:56 -0500 Subject: Gold and other stuff in old computers, was Re: Australian rescue for DEC VAX 11/750, 730, and PDP-11? In-Reply-To: <200602211254.48117.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <43FA23CB.9050701@imagination.com> <014301c63682$69f52640$6700a8c0@PC331890042458> <43FA824F.8080604@nktelco.net> <200602211254.48117.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: On 2/21/06, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 20 February 2006 10:00 pm, C. H. Dickman wrote: > > Jay West wrote: > > > Unfortunately, it could be to a gold smelter. > > > > Is there a financially significant precious metal content to old > > computer equipment? When you factor in the hazardous materials disposal > > issues such as lead, it would seem a losing proposition. I can almost > > see a scrapper saying he would take everything except the boards. > > > > -chuck > > I had a guy who came to my shop back when that asked about scrap board, for > that specific reason. I didn't have any to give him, figuring that anything > I had kicking around I'd be pulling components off of, but it's no surprise. > > Saw a thing on TV a while back about old cell phones and such where this stuff > was packed up and shipped off to China, where peasants were doing the > extraction, in nasty-looking chemical brews sitting outside on the ground. > One of the comments in there was how they were drastically shortening their > lives by doing this stuff, but figured that it was worth it for their > families. It is in a perticular region in southern China named "Nanao". Local peasants hire poor inland peasants. They do get rich, and they move to other places to live like bosses. Those who shorten their lives are poorly paid. The land that gets polluted does not belong to them anyway. In China land belongs to the government. Lets imagine there is a gold mine in the US national forest. Now you hire Mexicans to dig the gold out, get rich, and are not punished for the pollution, and do not need to obtain the property before you begin to dig. I guess many will rush to the business. vax, 9000 > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin > > From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Feb 21 12:28:06 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:28:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: <43FB5669.7000004@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20060221182806.9CB6758042@mail.wordstock.com> > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 2/21/2006 at 11:13 AM Jim Leonard wrote: > > > >> IIRC the Aureal support was fairly poor. Just a warning. > > > > Any PCI card is probably not going to be able to support legacy DMA type > > transfers, but siimple SB port 220H I/O shouldn't be a problem with PCI > > It's not, but without DMA the cards are nearly useless. It limits them > to FM/MIDI synth output only. No digitized sound output whatsoever. Waaahh!! :( Well, I am glad I asked here before I started pulling my hair out trying to get a PCI SB to work under DOS. :) Thanks!, Bryan From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 21 12:42:27 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:42:27 -0500 Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? References: <20060221145036.778D0580D0@mail.wordstock.com> <43FB4A1E.2010509@oldskool.org> <200602210940080947.294E9F09@10.0.0.252> <43FB5669.7000004@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <007a01c63716$90a6b350$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 1:05 PM Subject: Re: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 2/21/2006 at 11:13 AM Jim Leonard wrote: > > > >> IIRC the Aureal support was fairly poor. Just a warning. > > > > Any PCI card is probably not going to be able to support legacy DMA type > > transfers, but siimple SB port 220H I/O shouldn't be a problem with PCI > > It's not, but without DMA the cards are nearly useless. It limits them > to FM/MIDI synth output only. No digitized sound output whatsoever. I figured you people had a stash of ISA Soundblasters, Gravis Ultrasound, Yamaha dxb50, Roland, and Ensoniq Soundscape cards laying around just for retro gaming. ISA slots survived into the Pentium 3 era atleast (which tend to be way too fast for DOS gaming anyway). From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Feb 21 12:53:39 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:53:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: <007a01c63716$90a6b350$72781941@game> Message-ID: <20060221185339.8BD0558187@mail.wordstock.com> > > > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 2/21/2006 at 11:13 AM Jim Leonard wrote: > > > > > >> IIRC the Aureal support was fairly poor. Just a warning. > > > > > > Any PCI card is probably not going to be able to support legacy DMA type > > > transfers, but siimple SB port 220H I/O shouldn't be a problem with PCI > > > > It's not, but without DMA the cards are nearly useless. It limits them > > to FM/MIDI synth output only. No digitized sound output whatsoever. > > I figured you people had a stash of ISA Soundblasters, Gravis Ultrasound, > Yamaha dxb50, Roland, and Ensoniq Soundscape cards laying around just for > retro gaming. ISA slots survived into the Pentium 3 era atleast (which tend > to be way too fast for DOS gaming anyway). There is the Mo'Slo program, but I haven't tried it with games yet. Cheers, Bryan From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 21 13:07:39 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:07:39 -0600 Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: <20060221182806.9CB6758042@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060221182806.9CB6758042@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <43FB64FB.3020405@oldskool.org> Bryan Pope wrote: >>> Any PCI card is probably not going to be able to support legacy DMA type >>> transfers, but siimple SB port 220H I/O shouldn't be a problem with PCI >> It's not, but without DMA the cards are nearly useless. It limits them >> to FM/MIDI synth output only. No digitized sound output whatsoever. > > Waaahh!! :( Well, I am glad I asked here before I started pulling my > hair out trying to get a PCI SB to work under DOS. :) I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm saying it doesn't work well. Try it and first try a game that has Adlib sound only, see how it plays. Then try digital. A good litmus test is Doom (shareware is fine). If the Adlib/FM music and digital sound effects are going at the same time, and you don't hear any cracking/popping/looping in the digital sound (which would indicate a problem with auto-init DMA), then you're golden. Any problems you have after that point you can blame on the game :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Feb 21 13:08:20 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:08:20 -0000 Subject: Transferring from PC to PDP11, perhaps virtual devices? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002501c6371a$2f297000$5b01a8c0@pc1> JP Hindin wrote: > I am trying to help out a friend with a data transfer process to > simplify his business. The goal is to move a couple hundred Megs of > data from a PC to a PDP11. Currently he has a DOS box with a Pertec > controller, which he uses to copy data to a 9 track, and then pulls > off on the PDP. This seems... inelegant, I can only assume there is a > simpler way. Is the data really going from a PC to a PDP-11? I guess if you are talking just a few hundred megs that's maybe only ten magtapes or so (GCR?) in which case doing a bit of tape swapping is probably going to be finished before you can even configure another solution. Especially if you have N tapes and can have the source machine continually writing and not having to wait for the target machine to finish with the only tape. Otherwise you probably should look at FTP (if you have an IP stack for your PDP-11 OS), or FAL (if you have DECnet for your PDP-11 OS) or Kermit. Another option might be to write data to a disk and transfer to the disk to the PDP-11. This assumes that you have a disk that could plug into both (SCSI is the likliest option these days) and that one end can encode data for or decode data from the other end. You might even find that SIMH or E11 come in handy for this particular exercise. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 21 13:08:40 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:08:40 -0600 Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: <007a01c63716$90a6b350$72781941@game> References: <20060221145036.778D0580D0@mail.wordstock.com> <43FB4A1E.2010509@oldskool.org> <200602210940080947.294E9F09@10.0.0.252> <43FB5669.7000004@oldskool.org> <007a01c63716$90a6b350$72781941@game> Message-ID: <43FB6538.704@oldskool.org> Teo Zenios wrote: > I figured you people had a stash of ISA Soundblasters, Gravis Ultrasound, > Yamaha dxb50, Roland, and Ensoniq Soundscape cards laying around just for > retro gaming. What makes you think I don't? :-) I have well over 30, although I'm a collector nut who eventually wants to start a PC Sound Card wiki with a metric crapload of info on them. Yes, I'm strange. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 21 13:10:37 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:10:37 -0600 Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: <20060221185339.8BD0558187@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060221185339.8BD0558187@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <43FB65AD.90605@oldskool.org> Bryan Pope wrote: >> >> I figured you people had a stash of ISA Soundblasters, Gravis Ultrasound, >> Yamaha dxb50, Roland, and Ensoniq Soundscape cards laying around just for >> retro gaming. ISA slots survived into the Pentium 3 era atleast (which tend >> to be way too fast for DOS gaming anyway). > > There is the Mo'Slo program, but I haven't tried it with games yet. Mo'Slo, and programs like it, create busywait loops in software and are extremely poor at slowing machines down gracefully enough to run finicky time-sensitive software (read: games). A better solution is slowing down the clock of the machine itself, or disabling caches, or lowering the bus speed, or all three. Check http://www.oldskool.org/pc/throttle for one such program. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 21 13:12:27 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:12:27 -0600 Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: <43FB65AD.90605@oldskool.org> References: <20060221185339.8BD0558187@mail.wordstock.com> <43FB65AD.90605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43FB661B.7020500@oldskool.org> Whoops, for the DOS version I meant this instead: http://www.oldskool.org/pc/throttle/DOS Jim Leonard wrote: > Bryan Pope wrote: >>> >>> I figured you people had a stash of ISA Soundblasters, Gravis >>> Ultrasound, >>> Yamaha dxb50, Roland, and Ensoniq Soundscape cards laying around just >>> for >>> retro gaming. ISA slots survived into the Pentium 3 era atleast >>> (which tend >>> to be way too fast for DOS gaming anyway). >> >> There is the Mo'Slo program, but I haven't tried it with games yet. > > Mo'Slo, and programs like it, create busywait loops in software and are > extremely poor at slowing machines down gracefully enough to run finicky > time-sensitive software (read: games). > > A better solution is slowing down the clock of the machine itself, or > disabling caches, or lowering the bus speed, or all three. Check > http://www.oldskool.org/pc/throttle for one such program. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Feb 21 13:32:05 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:32:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: <200602210940080947.294E9F09@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060221193205.7BC0D3D63B@mail.wordstock.com> > > On 2/21/2006 at 11:13 AM Jim Leonard wrote: > > >IIRC the Aureal support was fairly poor. Just a warning. > > Any PCI card is probably not going to be able to support legacy DMA type > transfers, but siimple SB port 220H I/O shouldn't be a problem with PCI > cards that do emulation right. There have been some discussions about PCI > sound cards in real mode DOS on the vintage gaming fora. > Where is this board? I googled it but I am not sure if the hits I received were "the one". :) Cheers, Bryan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 21 13:15:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:15:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: What to do with that old IBM Graphics Printer In-Reply-To: <43FAC360.4090905@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Feb 21, 6 01:38:08 am Message-ID: > I was never a hardware tinkerer, but even as a kid I was always=20 > fascinating by programming. I'm still "tinkering" with 8088 assembler=20 > decades later because it is a finite goal. One of the best pieces of advice I was ever given was 'Be curious'. > All is not lost: I got my 6-yr-old to sit down and play Rocky's Boots=20 I don't think I'ev ever heard of that, what is it? > with me, and Great Lincoln's Mullet he took to it like a fish to water.=20 > He can now describe AND, OR, and NOT gates, and also CLOCKS and DELAYS=20 > (although he may not use all of the correct terms, but hey, he's six). At about that age, I built my first radio receiver (nothing original, I just followed the instructions in the book...), and I suspect I'd made at least one relay from either Meccano or Fischer Trchnik... Some poeple might not like it, but I am certain I learnt a lot more from that sort of 'play' than I ever leant in school... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 21 13:22:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:22:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Perq Boot disks In-Reply-To: <26c11a640602211017j51279264l@mail.gmail.com> from "Dan Williams" at Feb 21, 6 06:17:07 pm Message-ID: > > I have a Perq 2 which will not boot from it's hard drive. I don't know > which OS is installed on it either. If I send out some floppies can > anyone copy a boot/maintenance disk for POS and MPOS I beleive some of the disks are on Bitsavers in some documented format, but how you get them onto 8" floppies is a (very minor) problem... Alas my 'work PERQ' is down at the moment with keyboard problems that I've still not got round to sorting out. I know exactly what the problem is (Keytronix foam disks have decayed), I've just got to do something about it. Anyway, what does the DDS do on yoyr PERQ at power-on. It's possible the fault is not a corrupted hard disk. And which hard disk do you have (a 2T1 would have a Micropolis 1200 8" drive, a 2T2 (or a 2T4, but I don't think you'll have one of those!) has a 5.25" ST412-interfaced drive). -tony From eds_2 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 21 13:57:42 2006 From: eds_2 at yahoo.com (Eric Scharff) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 11:57:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for Tiny Pascal Message-ID: <20060221195742.34258.qmail@web32509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In Byte Magazine Vol. 3 Nos. 9, 10, and 11 (Sep 1978, Oct 1978, Nov 1978) there is an article written by Kin-Man Chung and Herbert Yuen describing a "Tiny Pascal" compiler. Tiny Pascal compiles a subset of pascal to p-code, and then translates that p-code into 8080 assembly. The compiler is written in North Star BASIC. I found the articles in the local library, but I noticed that the listings are incomplete (especially the p-code to 8080 translation program is absent) I'm interested in tracking down the history and sources of this compiler. I have heard that it was ported to many other 8-bit machines. I'm trying to track down working versions of this compiler and those from which it was derived. Any resources would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, -Eric __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 21 13:58:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 11:58:01 -0800 Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: <43FB65AD.90605@oldskool.org> References: <20060221185339.8BD0558187@mail.wordstock.com> <43FB65AD.90605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200602211158010215.29CCD842@10.0.0.252> On 2/21/2006 at 1:10 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Mo'Slo, and programs like it, create busywait loops in software and are >extremely poor at slowing machines down gracefully enough to run finicky >time-sensitive software (read: games). > >A better solution is slowing down the clock of the machine itself, or >disabling caches, or lowering the bus speed, or all three. Check >http://www.oldskool.org/pc/throttle for one such program. Careful that you don't run afoul of any patents: http://xrint.com/patents/us/5125088 ...and folks wonder what's wrong with the US patent system.... Cheers, Chuck From paulrsm at buckeye-express.com Tue Feb 21 14:30:32 2006 From: paulrsm at buckeye-express.com (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:30:32 -0500 Subject: Looking for Tiny Pascal Message-ID: <380-220062221203032185@buckeye-express.com> This is a frequent item in comp.os.cpm Look for the Byte Book of Pascal. -- Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 21 14:43:55 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:43:55 -0600 Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: <20060221193205.7BC0D3D63B@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060221193205.7BC0D3D63B@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <43FB7B8B.9080607@oldskool.org> Bryan Pope wrote: >>> IIRC the Aureal support was fairly poor. Just a warning. >> Any PCI card is probably not going to be able to support legacy DMA type >> transfers, but siimple SB port 220H I/O shouldn't be a problem with PCI >> cards that do emulation right. There have been some discussions about PCI >> sound cards in real mode DOS on the vintage gaming fora. > > Where is this board? I googled it but I am not sure if the hits I > received were "the one". :) You may have better luck looking on ebay for "a3d" "aureal" or "vortex". -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 21 14:48:44 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:48:44 -0600 Subject: What to do with that old IBM Graphics Printer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43FB7CAC.201@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >> All is not lost: I got my 6-yr-old to sit down and play Rocky's Boots=20 > > I don't think I'ev ever heard of that, what is it? Oh my, you've never heard of it? Here: http://www.warrenrobinett.com/rockysboots/ I absolutely loved it as a kid, and no idea it was teaching me basic electronics. >> with me, and Great Lincoln's Mullet he took to it like a fish to water.=20 >> He can now describe AND, OR, and NOT gates, and also CLOCKS and DELAYS=20 >> (although he may not use all of the correct terms, but hey, he's six). > > At about that age, I built my first radio receiver (nothing original, I > just followed the instructions in the book...), and I suspect I'd made at > least one relay from either Meccano or Fischer Trchnik... Yes, well, not every 6-yr-old boy has your kind of aptitude. We can't all be Tony Duell :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Feb 21 14:51:21 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:51:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: <43FB7B8B.9080607@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20060221205121.A937158184@mail.wordstock.com> > > Bryan Pope wrote: > >>> IIRC the Aureal support was fairly poor. Just a warning. > >> Any PCI card is probably not going to be able to support legacy DMA type > >> transfers, but siimple SB port 220H I/O shouldn't be a problem with PCI > >> cards that do emulation right. There have been some discussions about PCI > >> sound cards in real mode DOS on the vintage gaming fora. > > > > Where is this board? I googled it but I am not sure if the hits I > > received were "the one". :) > > You may have better luck looking on ebay for "a3d" "aureal" or "vortex". Are these more compatible then Creative Labs ones? Thanks, Bryan From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 21 15:01:25 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:01:25 -0600 Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: <20060221205121.A937158184@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20060221205121.A937158184@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <43FB7FA5.4020106@oldskool.org> Bryan Pope wrote: >>> Where is this board? I googled it but I am not sure if the hits I >>> received were "the one". :) >> You may have better luck looking on ebay for "a3d" "aureal" or "vortex". > > Are these more compatible then Creative Labs ones? That's subjective. *No* PCI card fully and completely emulates a "legacy" ISA Sound Blaster without problems, not even from Creative themselves. So I can't really answer that. Me personally, I solved this problem a few years ago by getting a ABIT KT7-RAID motherboard, and sticking a 1.3MHz Duron in it. That gave me a 1.3GHz machine with a single ISA slot, so it became my uber-dos-game-box. The speed was several times faster than what Pentium-era games were expecting (and *orders of magnitude* faster than what 1980s games were expecting) so don't expect things to be rosy... but for the games that worked properly, the additional speed/framerate was just breathtaking (Flight Unlimited, Quake, and Carmageddon come to mind). For that machine, I used a Sound Blaster 16. At those kinds of speeds, you can expect greater than 30 frames per second at 640x480 and above -- not too shabby for games that never supported 3D acceleration. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From news at computercollector.com Tue Feb 21 15:44:49 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 16:44:49 -0500 Subject: '82 issues of Byte? In-Reply-To: <004901c63696$22147c40$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <001801c63730$0a76bef0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Found what I needed -- turns out it was Jan. 1984. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 10:23 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: '82 issues of Byte? Okay. Well, Dave said it's "probably" 1982. If no one can find it, then maybe try 1983. Muchos gracias! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Erik Klein Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 10:19 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: '82 issues of Byte? I concur with Richard. I've got all of the 1982 issues pulled and I didn't see anything in the ToC that looked like it matched. More detail would help. . . Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 7:11 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: '82 issues of Byte? Evan: I have a complete run of BYTEs from the first issue until 1988. I looked in my Excel spreadsheet of "interesting articles" and the only thing I saw was a series of articles on the Atari co-authored by "Winner". I do not track first names in my spreadsheet. It might take me a day or two. Any more clues to help nail down the issue? Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 9:59 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: '82 issues of Byte? Hi all, I need to search through all the 1982 issues of Byte for a specific article co-authored by Dave Winer. I don't know the article title of the issue number. All I know is that the article included one of the earliest references to a "laptop" computer, according to Dave himself. The archives on Byte.com only go back to 1994. Does anyone know if the older issues are scanned anyplace? Or if anyone has the issues, would you help me out by doing a quick flip-through for the article in question? (Mike N., perhaps you have them?) Much thanks, - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 21 16:11:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 22:11:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: What to do with that old IBM Graphics Printer In-Reply-To: <43FB7CAC.201@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Feb 21, 6 02:48:44 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> All is not lost: I got my 6-yr-old to sit down and play Rocky's Boots=20 > > > > I don't think I'ev ever heard of that, what is it? > > Oh my, you've never heard of it? Here: > > http://www.warrenrobinett.com/rockysboots/ OK, I'll take a look. > > At about that age, I built my first radio receiver (nothing original, I > > just followed the instructions in the book...), and I suspect I'd made at > > least one relay from either Meccano or Fischer Trchnik... > > Yes, well, not every 6-yr-old boy has your kind of aptitude. We can't > all be Tony Duell :-) Considering the number of things I am totally _useless_ at, this is a very good thing IMHO.... -tony From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Feb 21 16:32:07 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:32:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: What to do with that old IBM Graphics Printer Message-ID: <200602212232.OAA04537@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> All is not lost: I got my 6-yr-old to sit down and play Rocky's Boots=20 >> > >> > I don't think I'ev ever heard of that, what is it? >> >> Oh my, you've never heard of it? Here: >> >> http://www.warrenrobinett.com/rockysboots/ > >OK, I'll take a look. > >> > At about that age, I built my first radio receiver (nothing original, I >> > just followed the instructions in the book...), and I suspect I'd made at >> > least one relay from either Meccano or Fischer Trchnik... >> >> Yes, well, not every 6-yr-old boy has your kind of aptitude. We can't >> all be Tony Duell :-) > >Considering the number of things I am totally _useless_ at, this is a >very good thing IMHO.... > >-tony Hi Tony I know what you mean. I disassembled the toaster and cleaned the clock mechanism when I was 5 and a half but I still need a spell checker to write simple email. Dwight From wulfcub at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 16:41:11 2006 From: wulfcub at gmail.com (Wulf daMan) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 16:41:11 -0600 Subject: Transferring from PC to PDP11, perhaps virtual devices? In-Reply-To: <002501c6371a$2f297000$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <002501c6371a$2f297000$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: On 2/21/06, a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > Is the data really going from a PC to a PDP-11? > > I guess if you are talking just a few hundred megs that's > maybe only ten magtapes or so (GCR?) in which case doing > a bit of tape swapping is probably going to be finished > before you can even configure another solution. Especially > if you have N tapes and can have the source machine > continually writing and not having to wait for the target > machine to finish with the only tape. Yes, the data really is going from a pc to a pdp 11/34. I have multiple tapes available, but they're quickly degrading, and this is an ongoing project. (For what it's worth, at 6250bpi, I can get about 160MB on a single tape.) At present, I'm looking into a scsi controller, tied to a zip drive. This should provide enough capacity to do the job, and I can still get zip disks. Dilog still builds them, for about $1100, which is the best price I've found for any unibus scsi interface. > You might even find that SIMH or E11 come in handy > for this particular exercise. Unfortunately, I have a few custom interface cards which I have no way to duplicate in simulation (they attach to some particular equipment.) One project I have slated for the near future is working out a way to move the custom interface off to a pc interface, but it's not easy mapping out 80+ signal lines. --Shaun pdp11/34, SMS FWT-100, STK2920 tape drive pdp11/04 SMS1000 TDC w/ Xerox controller Misc Xerox gear (built by DEC) C=128, C=64 -- "If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred minus one day, so I never have to live without you." -- Winnie The Pooh http://www.lungs4amber.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Feb 21 17:12:28 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:12:28 -0500 Subject: Transferring from PC to PDP11, perhaps virtual devices? In-Reply-To: References: <002501c6371a$2f297000$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <200602211812.28159.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 21 February 2006 17:41, Wulf daMan wrote: > At present, I'm looking into a scsi controller, tied to a zip > drive. This should provide enough capacity to do the job, and I can > still get zip disks. Dilog still builds them, for about $1100, which > is the best price I've found for any unibus scsi interface. You might try talking to some resellers, (like Keyways, for instance), and see if you can get a better price, but I'm not sure that you can do much better than that, unless you get lucky. You might consider some other medium besides a zip disk. Actually, I think I'd go for a DLT4000 or 7000 drive connected to the SCSI controller. Tapes are fairly inexpensive, and you can get 20/35GB uncompressed per tape. The media and drives are also IME somewhat more durable than 9-tracks are. I've gotten DLT7000 drives on ebay for less than $50 each; 4000s should be quite a bit cheaper, and possibly more reliable. Used media - a DLT IV cart in either case - is cheap (<$5/tape), and usually works just fine. New media is still widely available, and not horribly expensive. Plus, you might be able to find a "tape-only" UNIBUS SCSI controller for less $$ than a disk-capable SCSI controller will cost (at least, that's how it works for some QBUS SCSI controllers). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Feb 21 17:12:02 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 17:12:02 -0600 Subject: [UCSDPascal] Tiny Pascal In-Reply-To: <20060221200039.94993.qmail@web32502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060221200039.94993.qmail@web32502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060221171053.056ca2a8@mail> At 02:00 PM 2/21/2006, Eric Scharff wrote: >In a question peripherally related to UCSD pascal, I recently >discovered "Tiny Pascal." >I found the articles in the local library, but I noticed that >the listings are incomplete (especially the p-code to 8080 >translation program is absent) It was reproduced in full in the 1979 "Byte Book of Pascal." I have a hardcover copy here. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Feb 21 17:10:12 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 17:10:12 -0600 Subject: [UCSDPascal] UCSD Pascal I.5 is available for download. In-Reply-To: <00ED1E60-51A9-4B6F-B89F-73A59DB8B04D@viasat.com> References: <1139786130.4915.95706.w104@yahoogroups.com> <00ED1E60-51A9-4B6F-B89F-73A59DB8B04D@viasat.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060221170758.056d57e8@mail> At 02:08 PM 2/21/2006, David Barto wrote: >The following link is the UCSD I.5 sources, as distributed by UCSD >for all to use as they wish. This has been validated and released >from UCSD. I'm very happy to make this announcement to this group. http://invent.ucsd.edu/technology/cases/1995-prior/SD1991-807.htm Amazing news! Wonderful to hear. Who can we thank for this, both inside and outside UCSD? Was this a consequence of the anniversary celebration? I know I tried in 1996 to have the source released or at least some sort of hobbyist licensing enacted - but to no avail. What do you know about the provenance of these particular I.4 and I.5 sources that have been released? - John From technobug at comcast.net Tue Feb 21 17:40:30 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 16:40:30 -0700 Subject: Transferring from PC to PDP11, perhaps virtual devices? In-Reply-To: <200602211800.k1LI04wb088988@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200602211800.k1LI04wb088988@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:52:08 -0600 (CST), JP Hindin wrote: > Greetings all; > > I am trying to help out a friend with a data transfer process to > simplify > his business. The goal is to move a couple hundred Megs of data > from a PC > to a PDP11. [...] Just yesterday, a friend running a 11/45 in his business asked me the same question. He wishes to move info in both directions. His problem is that he is running RSTS 6C and he knows of no drivers for ethernet for that version of OS. Migration to a later version is out of the question since the OS has been highly modified. He considered serial and non-DMA parallel ports, but the maximum transfer rate under non-DMA transfers is about 50kB/sec. Since the TU10 interface is fairly simple and DMA we have started looking there for a fast-and-easy route. Any other suggestions? CRC From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 21 18:07:17 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 17:07:17 -0700 Subject: Sound Blaster PCI + DOS? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:51:21 -0500. <20060221205121.A937158184@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: I have a shitload of ISA Creative brand sound cards if anyone needs one. I also have a bunch of sound cards that are not Creative brand that are ISA, if SB compatability is of no (or little0 concern. No manuals or drivers, just cards. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 21 19:32:44 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:32:44 -0700 Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? In-Reply-To: <200602152232.k1FMW9lw000582@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200602152232.k1FMW9lw000582@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <43FBBF3C.8000505@jetnet.ab.ca> Brad Parker wrote: > "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > >>Anyone know of any PCB firms that still do PCB production based on >>original Film art? I have most of the films for what was and wasn't >>produced by Atari, there are no digital files (heck some of these very >>early films, like the original Pong console are done with adhesive tape >>onto a clear plastic film for crying out loud!) So I am looking for a >>place that can still work with this old style way of making PCB's, anyone? > > > I doubt you'll find anyone because they all "palletize" using gerber > files. But I might be wrong. > > I wonder if you could not scan the film and then (waves arms and thinks > of AI, chicken feathers and blind luck) somehow extract a gerber out of > it. > > Actually, spending a minute in google, it seems that this is a common > service done my cad conversion houses. > > Seems like feature extraction in such a limited domain might actually be > pretty good - i.e. you could do it mostly in software. > > -brad Well if you really are stuck, try here. Too bad the USA has no real do it your self stuff any more. http://www.rcsradio.com.au/ From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Feb 21 20:07:22 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 21:07:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Gold and other stuff in old computers, was Re: Australian rescue for DEC VAX 11/750, 730, and PDP-11? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Saw a thing on TV a while back about old cell phones and such where this stuff > > was packed up and shipped off to China, where peasants were doing the > > extraction, in nasty-looking chemical brews sitting outside on the ground. > > One of the comments in there was how they were drastically shortening their > > lives by doing this stuff, but figured that it was worth it for their > > families. > > It is in a perticular region in southern China named "Nanao". Local > peasants hire poor inland peasants. They do get rich, and they move to > other places to live like bosses. Those who shorten their lives are > poorly paid. The land that gets polluted does not belong to them > anyway. In China land belongs to the government. > > Lets imagine there is a gold mine in the US national forest. Now you > hire Mexicans to dig the gold out, get rich, and are not punished for > the pollution, and do not need to obtain the property before you begin > to dig. I guess many will rush to the business. It would be nice if people on this list ACTUALLY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT when it comes to scrap and the Chinese. What is being said was true - ten some odd years ago. A great deal has changed, and Chinese scrapyards are pretty damned efficient. The Chinese government/industry is not all that concerned about the people or the land, but they are concerned about money. Improvements in efficiency and yield in the scrap yard makes more money, and as a side effect, are not nearly as toxic as they used to be. For example, if they burn the insulation off wire, they burn up copper, but if they shred it, they get nearly 100 percent. Obviously, the latter method is far, far less toxic and generates much better yields. The same is true for circuit boards - grind them up into powder then sort the granules into the different materials, and very little goes up in smoke. About the only thing that is still a problem are ceramics and the base board material. And Chinese workers are happy to get the jobs. Most go to young men, as it is a way for them to get their wedding chest built up. Work in the scrapyards for two or three years, save your earnings, then find a wife. Very few make careers out of picking scrap apart. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 21 20:13:39 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:13:39 -0800 Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? In-Reply-To: <43FBBF3C.8000505@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200602152232.k1FMW9lw000582@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43FBBF3C.8000505@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200602211813390121.2B24BB0C@10.0.0.252> On 2/21/2006 at 6:32 PM woodelf wrote: >Well if you really are stuck, try here. Too bad the USA has no real do >it your self stuff any more. >http://www.rcsradio.com.au/ Well, Kepro ceased operation and sold remaining inventory to these folks: http://www.dalpro.net/ They do offer sensitized PCB stock and chemicals. Cheers, Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 21:03:44 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 03:03:44 +0000 Subject: Vaxstations in London In-Reply-To: <26c11a640602210949v7db62ddo@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640602210949v7db62ddo@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0602211903w6a06d521k1687b3d3408fff0b@mail.gmail.com> On 2/21/06, Dan Williams wrote: > Due to impending job change/move I need to slim down my collection > there will be quite a few machines. Some of the bigger stuff I need to > put on ebay as I really need the money. > I will be putting a 4000/500 with 9 dssi drives and a 4000/700 with 12 > dssi drives on ebay towards the end of the month. > > I have gone through some machines there will be more : > > Vaxstation 3100/30 12mb unknown drive > Vaxstation 3100/76 2xRZ74 16mb Floppy > Vaxstation 3100/30 2gb drive 8mb Floppy > Vaxstation 3100/40 3x100mb drive 32mb ram missing front flap > Microvax 3100 16mb 2xRz25 3.2gb > Vaxstation 3100/76 floppy 16mb 500mb drive > Vax storage expansion box no drives but possible with the cable if I > can find it. > > These are all free to pick up from Soho London. Wow! I would be most interested in one, but it's over a decade since I last even /saw/ a VAXstation. I've no idea how to choose the most powerful out of that lot! Do they have monitors? If not, what kind do they require? -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Mob: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: +44 870 1271528 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 21:15:17 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:15:17 -0800 Subject: Vaxstations in London In-Reply-To: <575131af0602211903w6a06d521k1687b3d3408fff0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640602210949v7db62ddo@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0602211903w6a06d521k1687b3d3408fff0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/21/06, Liam Proven wrote: > Wow! > > I would be most interested in one, but it's over a decade since I last > even /saw/ a VAXstation. I've no idea how to choose the most powerful > out of that lot! The most powerful in the lot is the 3100/76. the 40 box is bigger than the 30 box. The speed is the same for the two. > > Do they have monitors? If not, what kind do they require? > > -- > Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Mob: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: +44 870 1271528 > AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com > Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 > Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com > > From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 21:17:59 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 03:17:59 +0000 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> On 1/5/06, Eric J Korpela wrote: > Virtual memory in 286 mode is one advantage OS/2 might have over any > of the 286 unixes. I'm not sure if Xenix supported it. I /think/ it did. I used to run a Xenix/286 box in my 1st job, and installed a few as well, and I am reaonably sure I used to have to configure swap on them. My office machine was an IBM PC-AT, the 6MHz version, with 512K RAM, and not only did Xenix run fine but I had enough RAM to run a 2nd terminal as well. OS/2 1, OTOH, I think needed at least 1024KB to boot. Not sure of this, but that's what dim recollection tells me... -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 21:20:11 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 03:20:11 +0000 Subject: XENIX 286 In-Reply-To: <200601021135070043.0C6C4E64@10.0.0.252> References: <200601021135070043.0C6C4E64@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <575131af0602211920x4914304bv5400d0b1ce6d47b9@mail.gmail.com> On 1/2/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I have > no idea, given the date of the binaries (about 1989) how smart the thing is > about more modern things like IDE CD-ROM drives and hard disks > 8GB. Very poor indeed. SCO OpenServer 5 from the late 1990s can't handle >8GB hard drives without a patch that AFAICT The SCO Group does not offer... -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 21:23:29 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 03:23:29 +0000 Subject: Vaxstations in London In-Reply-To: References: <26c11a640602210949v7db62ddo@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0602211903w6a06d521k1687b3d3408fff0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0602211923k11fe719aj794caa509f56a48b@mail.gmail.com> On 2/22/06, 9000 VAX wrote: > The most powerful in the lot is the 3100/76. > the 40 box is bigger than the 30 box. The speed is the same for the two. Thanks VM for that! I should be able to attach a standard SCSI hard disk into one, I think, yes? But preferably <1GB? I have a few of those around. Do you know about the monitor? Would it drive a mono 21" Sun-type screen with a YB13 or is it going to only have some kind of fixed-sync video output? -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Mob: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: +44 870 1271528 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From vrs at msn.com Tue Feb 21 21:35:08 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:35:08 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: From: "Liam Proven" > On 1/5/06, Eric J Korpela wrote: > > Virtual memory in 286 mode is one advantage OS/2 might have over any > > of the 286 unixes. I'm not sure if Xenix supported it. > > I /think/ it did. I used to run a Xenix/286 box in my 1st job, and > installed a few as well, and I am reaonably sure I used to have to > configure swap on them. My office machine was an IBM PC-AT, the 6MHz > version, with 512K RAM, and not only did Xenix run fine but I had > enough RAM to run a 2nd terminal as well. I am certain that Xenix/286 doesn't page. It does swap, much like early PDP-11 Unix kernels. But you will need enough RAM to load the kernel plus your largest process. I once ported GNU Emacs to the beast. In the largest configuration I had access to, there was enough memory to load it, and compose a document about 20 bytes long. Vince From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 21 22:44:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 20:44:57 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <01ac01c63760$fab9b360$6700a8c0@vrs> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> <01ac01c63760$fab9b360$6700a8c0@vrs> Message-ID: <200602212044570951.2BAF42E5@10.0.0.252> On 2/21/2006 at 7:35 PM vrs wrote: >I am certain that Xenix/286 doesn't page. It does swap, much like early >PDP-11 Unix kernels. But you will need enough RAM to load the kernel plus >your largest process. Certainly not page--there's no native paging facility in the 286. That came with the 386. However, the 286 can run segmented code and swap segments in and out of memory. One could, I suppose, define a 64K page size and fill the descriptor table with entries and so, in theory, have a virtual memory size of half a gig. But you'd have to tread selector arithmetic something awful. AFAIK, no OS ever did this on the 286. Cheers, Chuck From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Feb 21 23:40:19 2006 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 23:40:19 -0600 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay Message-ID: <000001c63772$77a1ce10$176fa8c0@obie> I exchanged several emails today with an eBay seller offering an Altair system with disk drive for a starting bid of $2 in a one-day auction. This is a bogus offer - I became uneasy when the seller solicited an offline offer in response to a query about shipping but insisted on payment through Western Union rather than PayPal, even though the orginal auction listed PayPal as a preferred option. It is interesting to note that the auction I saw this morning (offered by seller DOCHANDS) was cancelled by eBay almost immediately but the _identical_ auction (same pictures and extensive text) is currently (2/21/06 @ 11:31 pm) being offered by two different sellers - as auction 6038449898 by GUNDAN760 and as auction 6038549050 by SHARISINA. It looks like the "seller" is hijacking legitimate eBay accounts to use as bogus fronts for his dealings. Caveat emptor. Jack -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.12/265 - Release Date: 2/20/2006 From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Feb 21 23:54:02 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 21:54:02 -0800 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <000001c63772$77a1ce10$176fa8c0@obie> References: <000001c63772$77a1ce10$176fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: <200602212154.02483.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 21 February 2006 21:40, Jack Rubin wrote: > I exchanged several emails today with an eBay seller offering an Altair > system with disk drive for a starting bid of $2 in a one-day auction. > > This is a bogus offer - I became uneasy when the seller solicited an > offline offer in response to a query about shipping but insisted on > payment through Western Union rather than PayPal, even though the > orginal auction listed PayPal as a preferred option. > > It is interesting to note that the auction I saw this morning (offered > by seller DOCHANDS) was cancelled by eBay almost immediately but the > _identical_ auction (same pictures and extensive text) is currently > (2/21/06 @ 11:31 pm) being offered by two different sellers - as auction > 6038449898 by GUNDAN760 and as auction 6038549050 by SHARISINA. It looks > like the "seller" is hijacking legitimate eBay accounts to use as bogus > fronts for his dealings. I agree this is fraud. I posted a "Fraud Alert" email to eBay. It'll be interesting to see how (if) they deal with it. Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 22 00:05:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 22:05:38 -0800 Subject: Dis-assembler on HP system on ePay Message-ID: <200602212205380915.2BF92028@10.0.0.252> Anyone have any idea what HP system this tape is for? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8769781675 From spc at conman.org Wed Feb 22 00:15:12 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 01:15:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <200602212044570951.2BAF42E5@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 21, 2006 08:44:57 PM Message-ID: <20060222061512.A0CB773029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > > On 2/21/2006 at 7:35 PM vrs wrote: > > >I am certain that Xenix/286 doesn't page. It does swap, much like early > >PDP-11 Unix kernels. But you will need enough RAM to load the kernel plus > > >your largest process. > > Certainly not page--there's no native paging facility in the 286. That > came with the 386. However, the 286 can run segmented code and swap > segments in and out of memory. One could, I suppose, define a 64K page > size and fill the descriptor table with entries and so, in theory, have a > virtual memory size of half a gig. But you'd have to tread selector > arithmetic something awful. > > AFAIK, no OS ever did this on the 286. I belive OS/2 1x did this. IBM insisted on OS/2 supporting the 286 while Microsoft wanted to skip it and support the 386 and above (this was one disagreement between IBM and Microsoft that lead to the split between the two). -spc (Who worked at IBM during 1990 on an OS/2 1x project ... ) From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Feb 22 00:30:49 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 22:30:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dis-assembler on HP system on ePay In-Reply-To: <200602212205380915.2BF92028@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060222063049.42506.qmail@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It is probably for a logic analyzer, though I have no idea which one. --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Anyone have any idea what HP system this tape is > for? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8769781675 > > From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 22 00:33:07 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 22:33:07 -0800 Subject: Altair Computer on Ebay Message-ID: <43FC05A3.A199D891@rain.org> I just noticed this one-day listing of an Altair located in the UK: http://cgi.ebay.com/MITS-Altair-8800-Computer-and-Disk-Drive-No-Reserve_W0QQitemZ6038449898QQcategoryZ49020QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Current price is $2.00 with about 10 hours to go (22:30 PST right now.) I rather doubt it will stay there :). From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 22 00:45:39 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 22:45:39 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <20060222061512.A0CB773029@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <20060222061512.A0CB773029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <200602212245390162.2C1DBFBF@10.0.0.252> On 2/22/2006 at 1:15 AM spc at conman.org wrote: > I belive OS/2 1x did this. IBM insisted on OS/2 supporting the 286 while >Microsoft wanted to skip it and support the 386 and above (this was one >disagreement between IBM and Microsoft that lead to the split between the >two). I can believe that OS/2 swapped segments, but it'd be pretty surprising to me to find out that they'd defined a fixed page size. I've still got OS/2 1.1 and 1.2 kicking around somewhere, complete with the SDK stuff--all printed, bound material. A wonder of careful technical writing. IIRC, if the SDK docs say something works a certain way, it does. Microsoft SDK/DDK documentation was a rude surprise after that. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 22 00:50:30 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 22:50:30 -0800 Subject: Dis-assembler on HP system on ePay In-Reply-To: <20060222063049.42506.qmail@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20060222063049.42506.qmail@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200602212250300983.2C2233A0@10.0.0.252> On 2/21/2006 at 10:30 PM William Maddox wrote: >It is probably for a logic analyzer, though I have no >idea which one. I figured it was either a logic analyzer or an ICE box of some sort. Otherwise, what's the difference between NSC800 and Z80 disassemblers? Cheers, CHuck From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 22 01:12:02 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 01:12:02 -0600 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <200602212044570951.2BAF42E5@10.0.0.252> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> <01ac01c63760$fab9b360$6700a8c0@vrs> <200602212044570951.2BAF42E5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43FC0EC2.7090608@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > AFAIK, no OS ever did this on the 286. Depends on "OS" I guess -- I distinctly remember Geoworks supporting extremely granular code objects and virtual memory. But Geoworks wasn't really an OS (for the same reason Win95/98/me weren't really OSes ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 01:30:25 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 02:30:25 -0500 Subject: Altair Computer on Ebay In-Reply-To: <43FC05A3.A199D891@rain.org> References: <43FC05A3.A199D891@rain.org> Message-ID: On 2/22/06, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I just noticed this one-day listing of an Altair located in the UK: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/MITS-Altair-8800-Computer-and-Disk-Drive-No-Reserve_W0QQitemZ6038449898QQcategoryZ49020QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > Current price is $2.00 with about 10 hours to go (22:30 PST right now.) > I rather doubt it will stay there :). > You surely didn't read the thread "bogus auction for Altair system on eBay" on this mailing list. vax, 9000 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 22 01:42:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 23:42:33 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <43FC0EC2.7090608@oldskool.org> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> <01ac01c63760$fab9b360$6700a8c0@vrs> <200602212044570951.2BAF42E5@10.0.0.252> <43FC0EC2.7090608@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200602212342330588.2C51D8D0@10.0.0.252> On 2/22/2006 at 1:12 AM Jim Leonard wrote: >Depends on "OS" I guess -- I distinctly remember Geoworks supporting >extremely granular code objects and virtual memory. But Geoworks wasn't >really an OS (for the same reason Win95/98/me weren't really OSes ;-) Yes, but I don't think any 286 OS used fixed page sizes! Cheers, Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 06:16:04 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:16:04 +0000 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0602220416v527f9c01k48143acc8572cea4@mail.gmail.com> On 2/22/06, vrs wrote: > I am certain that Xenix/286 doesn't page. It does swap, much like early > PDP-11 Unix kernels. But you will need enough RAM to load the kernel plus > your largest process. > > I once ported GNU Emacs to the beast. In the largest configuration I > had access to, there was enough memory to load it, and compose a document > about 20 bytes long. /Niiiice./ I must point out that I did carefully use the word "swap" not "page"! But I confess I'm not 100% clear on the difference. Does anyone know of a good online reference to explain it? Moderately technical is fine - I am a techie with a reasonable understanding of OS design, but I am not a programmer, or at least, not in C. -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From lproven at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 06:17:18 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:17:18 +0000 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <20060222061512.A0CB773029@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <200602212044570951.2BAF42E5@10.0.0.252> <20060222061512.A0CB773029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <575131af0602220417o31f8acd1r79c2345a7fd5592e@mail.gmail.com> On 2/22/06, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > > AFAIK, no OS ever did this on the 286. > > I belive OS/2 1x did this. IBM insisted on OS/2 supporting the 286 while > Microsoft wanted to skip it and support the 386 and above (this was one > disagreement between IBM and Microsoft that lead to the split between the > two). That is my understanding, too, for what little it's worth... -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed Feb 22 07:06:32 2006 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 08:06:32 -0500 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <575131af0602220416v527f9c01k48143acc8572cea4@mail.gmail.com> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0602220416v527f9c01k48143acc8572cea4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1140613592.26669.6.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 12:16 +0000, Liam Proven wrote: > On 2/22/06, vrs wrote: > > > I am certain that Xenix/286 doesn't page. It does swap, much like early > > PDP-11 Unix kernels. But you will need enough RAM to load the kernel plus > > your largest process. > > > > I once ported GNU Emacs to the beast. In the largest configuration I > > had access to, there was enough memory to load it, and compose a document > > about 20 bytes long. > > /Niiiice./ > > I must point out that I did carefully use the word "swap" not "page"! > But I confess I'm not 100% clear on the difference. Does anyone know > of a good online reference to explain it? Moderately technical is fine > - I am a techie with a reasonable understanding of OS design, but I am > not a programmer, or at least, not in C. > Swap is technically putting a segment (data or code) as one unit to the disk. paging is like swapping except using smaller-than-segment chunks (i.e. pages). In a paging system, each segment consists of a bunch of fixed-size pages and each one of those pages can be put on disk (or brought back) individually. When the OS tries to read from one of the missing pages, an exception is raised and the memory is loaded from disk. It wouldn't be so bad if people didn't use them interchangeably, but alas they do. Brian > -- > Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven > AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com > Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 > Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com > From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 22 07:41:51 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 06:41:51 -0700 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 21 Feb 2006 21:54:02 -0800. <200602212154.02483.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: In article <200602212154.02483.lbickley at bickleywest.com>, Lyle Bickley writes: > I agree this is fraud. I posted a "Fraud Alert" email to eBay. It'll be > interesting to see how (if) they deal with it. Is it anyone's experience that they ever do anything against a seller? Short of offering something that is outright illegal, it seems that ebay cares about sellers and don't give much of a damn about buyers. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Feb 22 08:27:48 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 09:27:48 -0500 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <000001c63772$77a1ce10$176fa8c0@obie> References: <000001c63772$77a1ce10$176fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: <43FC74E4.2000301@atarimuseum.com> The moment anyone wants to deal outside of Ebay and wants Western Union, simply forward the email to Ebay and report them, the only reason any seller wants to do this is: Keep their feedback clean You deal outside of Ebay, they can't help you Western Union doesn't require any validated bank account information, anyone with a fake ID can go up and pick up the money and then... they are GONE!!! Curt Jack Rubin wrote: > I exchanged several emails today with an eBay seller offering an Altair > system with disk drive for a starting bid of $2 in a one-day auction. > > This is a bogus offer - I became uneasy when the seller solicited an > offline offer in response to a query about shipping but insisted on > payment through Western Union rather than PayPal, even though the > orginal auction listed PayPal as a preferred option. > > It is interesting to note that the auction I saw this morning (offered > by seller DOCHANDS) was cancelled by eBay almost immediately but the > _identical_ auction (same pictures and extensive text) is currently > (2/21/06 @ 11:31 pm) being offered by two different sellers - as auction > 6038449898 by GUNDAN760 and as auction 6038549050 by SHARISINA. It looks > like the "seller" is hijacking legitimate eBay accounts to use as bogus > fronts for his dealings. > > Caveat emptor. > > Jack > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.12/266 - Release Date: 2/21/2006 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 22 09:12:41 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 08:12:41 -0700 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <1140613592.26669.6.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0602220416v527f9c01k48143acc8572cea4@mail.gmail.com> <1140613592.26669.6.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <43FC7F69.1070200@jetnet.ab.ca> Brian Wheeler wrote: > paging is like swapping except using smaller-than-segment chunks (i.e. > pages). In a paging system, each segment consists of a bunch of > fixed-size pages and each one of those pages can be put on disk (or > brought back) individually. When the OS tries to read from one of the > missing pages, an exception is raised and the memory is loaded from > disk. > > It wouldn't be so bad if people didn't use them interchangeably, but > alas they do. Also back then you used lots less memory for processes. With a swap page size of 4K that could be your whole working memory under basic or simple text editor. Note the PDP-8 I think used a page size of 128 words for its swapping functions. > Brian From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Feb 22 10:47:42 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:47:42 -0600 Subject: VAXstations in London Message-ID: <513fecc1c9e0497db2d4f28562d54b58@valleyimplants.com> >I would be most interested in one, but it's over a decade since I last >even /saw/ a VAXstation. I've no idea how to choose the most powerful >out of that lot! It depends what you want to run on them, too. The /76 won't run Ultrix, and mine is a bit flakey with NetBSD (haven't managed to get it completely installed with either 2.0 or 3.0 without crashes and weirdness). VMS runs great, though. (I have v7.2 on mine, the only problem with the hobbyist distro is that the 5.0 UCX on the Hobbyist V2 CD doesn't properly do Telnet. Don't know how well 7.3 works on VS3100 with 16 MB). The /76 also is the smaller case (like the /30). The plus with a Unix is that you can use > 1 GB disks with a < 1GB root partition O.K. I have a 2 GB drive running VMS with crossed fingers, supposedly there is a way to turn off crash dumps but I haven't found it yet. The VS3100 has a DA15M connector for video that looks a bit like a ERGO but is not, you'll need an adaptor at least. Base 3100/76 video is B&W unless you have the SPX option. You also need a LKA-type keyboard and VX-type mouse. SW3 can be flipped to put the console on the printer port, though. Remember it has the bizarre SCSI connector on the back (SUN SL-CD/XM-4101 drives work for install, though, and are easy to move around). Nice little boxes, though. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 22 11:49:04 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:49:04 -0700 Subject: "my books" web site? Message-ID: Does anyone know of a web site with a full ISBN catalog of books where you can build a "my books" collection? I'm thinking of something similar to the "My Movies" section of or the "DVDs I Own" section of . Amazon gives you a checkbox that says "I own it", but no way to list all the books you've marked as such. I think they only use this for product suggestions and don't let you build a collection list on their site. There seem to be software products devoted to book collectors, but I'm looking for something really simple. Any suggestions? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 22 12:05:39 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:05:39 -0800 Subject: Altair Computer on Ebay Message-ID: <43FCA7F3.2078A4B4@rain.org> Nope, it is rather difficult to read prior messages when ClassicCmp is delivered in digest form :). > > Current price is $2.00 with about 10 hours to go (22:30 PST right now.) > > I rather doubt it will stay there :). > > > > You surely didn't read the thread "bogus auction for Altair system on > eBay" on this mailing list. > > vax, 9000 > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 22 12:43:01 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:43:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: "my books" web site? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Feb 22, 2006 10:49:04 AM Message-ID: <200602221843.k1MIh1XW001289@onyx.spiritone.com> > There seem to be software products devoted to book collectors, but I'm > looking for something really simple. > > Any suggestions? Trust me, I'm cringing as I suggest this. MS Excel. The sad thing is I know a Library that is being started up, and they're using MS Excel to catalog the books they're getting in. Personally I've moved from some Shareware DB in the late 80's early 90's, to dBase IV in the early to mid-90's, to FileMaker Pro from the mid-90's on. Having said that only a very, very small portion of my collection is cataloged. Seriously one of the best solutions might be FileMaker Pro, FileMaker Mobile, and a handheld (I've been using a Sony Clie). I'm primarily using this for keeping track of the LP's that we have as my collecting interests have pretty much shifted to collecting LP's. I've seen a pretty cool Mac application that uses the Mac iSight video camera to scan barcodes. I think it's used for creating lists of your CD and DVD collections. Zane From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Feb 22 13:51:45 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 13:51:45 Subject: pinging Jules Richardson Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060222135145.0f478620@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Jules, Did you get my message about the Intel 310 manuals? I haven't gotten areply. Joe From spc at conman.org Wed Feb 22 13:14:41 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:14:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <200602212245390162.2C1DBFBF@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 21, 2006 10:45:39 PM Message-ID: <20060222191442.9251273029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > > On 2/22/2006 at 1:15 AM spc at conman.org wrote: > > > I belive OS/2 1x did this. IBM insisted on OS/2 supporting the 286 > while > >Microsoft wanted to skip it and support the 386 and above (this was one > >disagreement between IBM and Microsoft that lead to the split between the > >two). > > I can believe that OS/2 swapped segments, but it'd be pretty surprising to > me to find out that they'd defined a fixed page size. Well, the 286 only supported swapping (no paging) (now I see what is being discussed). Also, on the 8086, sequential segments were 16 bytes apart and many programs relied upon this behavior. I know that OS/2 included support for sequential selectors but one had to call a function to get the offset between each selector. Not that I used such functions---just that I recall seeing them in the documentation. > I've still got OS/2 > 1.1 and 1.2 kicking around somewhere, complete with the SDK stuff--all > printed, bound material. A wonder of careful technical writing. IIRC, if > the SDK docs say something works a certain way, it does. When I worked at IBM, I remember most of my desk being taken up with OS/2 1x programming documentation and it being quite complete. At the time, most of the programmers in the department were using Charles Petzold's OS/2 GUI programming book (mostly for handling of dialog boxes), which included routines to handle radio buttons, check boxes, etc. I was amazed to discover that OS/2 would handle those things automatically and subsequently, the code I wrote to handle dialog boxes was about a tenth the size of my fellow cow-orkers. > Microsoft SDK/DDK documentation was a rude surprise after that. Fortunately, never did any Windows programming. -spc (Really liked OS/2) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 22 13:14:40 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 11:14:40 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <1140613592.26669.6.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0602220416v527f9c01k48143acc8572cea4@mail.gmail.com> <1140613592.26669.6.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <200602221114400709.2ECB8507@10.0.0.252> On 2/22/2006 at 8:06 AM Brian Wheeler wrote: >> But I confess I'm not 100% clear on the difference. Does anyone know >> of a good online reference to explain it? The wikipedia on memory management isn't too bad; contrast "segmentation" with "paging": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_memory However, like a lot of computer-related stuff, these terms are evolutionary. The wiki would have you believe that special hardware is necessary for either paging or segmentation. Not true at all--JRT Pascal used segmentation and ran on a Z80 and I've worked on one BASIC implementation that paged from disk on an 8085. Similarly, my earlier comment was that a paging system could be implemented on a 286 if the page size was defined as the segment size limit--64K. Since the 286 doesn't offer offsets greater than 64K, one would still have to go through the nonsense of segment/offset calculation (why the 8086 never implemented a single instruction to compute a segment/offset from an existing segment-offset+displacement is beyond me), every distinct selector value represents a different page. To its credit, Windows 3.x did allocate large structures as a series of consecutively numbered selectors, so that a program could simply compute a new selector+offset value. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 22 14:05:53 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:05:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <20060222061512.A0CB773029@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <20060222061512.A0CB773029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <20060222120352.X58929@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > I belive OS/2 1x did this. IBM insisted on OS/2 supporting the 286 while > Microsoft wanted to skip it and support the 386 and above (this was one > disagreement between IBM and Microsoft that lead to the split between the > two). "The 80286 is brain dead" - Bill Gates "Changing modes on the '286 is like having to shut off your car engine on the freeway to shift gears." - Gordon Letwin (primary OS/2 at MS) From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Feb 22 14:18:39 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:18:39 -0500 Subject: Another keynote speaker for VCF: David Ahl In-Reply-To: <006601c63453$6c3af190$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <006601c63453$6c3af190$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <43FCC71F.6000108@atarimuseum.com> Excellent! I've always wanted to speak with him, he used to write some phenomenal Atari articles. Curt 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Well, this is cool! David Ahl, founder/editor of Creative Computing > magazine, confirmed today that he'll speak at East 3.0. > > > > ----------------------------------------- > Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net > > Computer Collector Newsletter: > >>> http://news.computercollector.com >>> > > Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: > >>> http://www.marchclub.org >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ >>> > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.12/266 - Release Date: 2/21/2006 From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 22 14:18:53 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:18:53 -0600 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <20060222120352.X58929@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060222061512.A0CB773029@linus.area51.conman.org> <20060222120352.X58929@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060222141805.05337f28@mail> At 02:05 PM 2/22/2006, Fred Cisin wrote: >"Changing modes on the '286 is like having to shut off your car engine on >the freeway to shift gears." - Gordon Letwin (primary OS/2 at MS) Referring to the method involving the keyboard controller to make the system change gears by almost rebooting? - John From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 22 14:33:15 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:33:15 -0600 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <200602221114400709.2ECB8507@10.0.0.252> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0602220416v527f9c01k48143acc8572cea4@mail.gmail.com> <1140613592.26669.6.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> <200602221114400709.2ECB8507@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43FCCA8B.9040103@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > (why the 8086 > never implemented a single instruction to compute a segment/offset from an > existing segment-offset+displacement is beyond me), Because you could address by offsets? This: mov ax,[si+bx+4] ...is perfectly valid. You know this already, so I'm confused why you asked the question...? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spc at conman.org Wed Feb 22 14:35:21 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:35:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060222141805.05337f28@mail> from "John Foust" at Feb 22, 2006 02:18:53 PM Message-ID: <20060222203529.3CFC573029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great John Foust once stated: > > At 02:05 PM 2/22/2006, Fred Cisin wrote: > >"Changing modes on the '286 is like having to shut off your car engine on > >the freeway to shift gears." - Gordon Letwin (primary OS/2 at MS) > > Referring to the method involving the keyboard controller to > make the system change gears by almost rebooting? Yup. Because once in protected mode on the 286, you can't get out unless you reset the CPU. -spc (I think you could get out by tripple faulting ... ) From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 22 14:39:18 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:39:18 -0600 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <20060222120352.X58929@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060222061512.A0CB773029@linus.area51.conman.org> <20060222120352.X58929@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <43FCCBF6.1030303@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >> I belive OS/2 1x did this. IBM insisted on OS/2 supporting the 286 while >> Microsoft wanted to skip it and support the 386 and above (this was one >> disagreement between IBM and Microsoft that lead to the split between the >> two). > > "The 80286 is brain dead" - Bill Gates > > "Changing modes on the '286 is like having to shut off your car engine on > the freeway to shift gears." - Gordon Letwin (primary OS/2 at MS) To be honest, they were right. If you wanted more than 640K on a 286, it was easier and faster to work with a hardware LIM EMS board than it was to try to do it yourself via protected mode. (I'm talking about the period before HIMEM.SYS and the formalized XMS standard, but even then, XMS copies RAM in and out of the 640K-space, whereas EMS would just slide the window around which was a hell of a lot faster.) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 22 14:40:14 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 13:40:14 -0700 Subject: "my books" web site? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:43:01 -0800. <200602221843.k1MIh1XW001289@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: In article <200602221843.k1MIh1XW001289 at onyx.spiritone.com>, "Zane H. Healy" writes: > > There seem to be software products devoted to book collectors, but I'm > > looking for something really simple. > > > > Any suggestions? > > Trust me, I'm cringing as I suggest this. MS Excel. [...] I think you're missing what I'm after. I'm not looking to cook up my own database. If I were going to do that, I'd just download one of the free tools for libraries. No, I don't want to spend my time entering ISBN, author and title information. Instead, I want something like the web sites I mentioned for organizing the books I own. Really this is something Amazon should be all over, but at the moment they only use the "I own this" check box to refine further product suggestions. Not a bad use, really, but not the one I'm after. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From lcourtney at mvista.com Wed Feb 22 14:47:14 2006 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 12:47:14 -0800 Subject: "my books" web site? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008a01c637f1$29403e80$c20a000a@mvista.com> Data from a buddy of mine: Here is (most) of my library, on-line! I used this fascinating (and inexpensive) tool called "Readerware" that lets you scan a book's barcode, then which crawls on the web and pulls in all the data it can find on it. Still have 100 or so more books to catalog. (as they turn up in my garage.) http://gizmo.org/ds/library/liberry A more concise version is at: http://gizmo.org/ds/library/liberry_1 HTH. Lee Courtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 9:49 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: "my books" web site? > > Does anyone know of a web site with a full ISBN catalog of > books where you can build a "my books" collection? > > I'm thinking of something similar to the "My Movies" section > of or the "DVDs I Own" section of > . > > Amazon gives you a checkbox that says "I own it", but no way > to list all the books you've marked as such. I think they > only use this for product suggestions and don't let you build > a collection list on their site. > > There seem to be software products devoted to book > collectors, but I'm looking for something really simple. > > Any suggestions? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Feb 22 15:17:01 2006 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 22:17:01 +0100 Subject: "my books" web site? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060222211701.GP19232@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2006-02-22 10:49:04 -0700, Richard wrote: > Does anyone know of a web site with a full ISBN catalog of books where > you can build a "my books" collection? What is the goal you're seeking for? Why is a ISBN catalog needed? > Amazon gives you a checkbox that says "I own it", but no way to list > all the books you've marked as such. I think they only use this for > product suggestions and don't let you build a collection list on their > site. Hmmm. What *might* be interesting is a something like Manx (http://vt100.net/manx/) with the possibility to name owners of real paper versions of those books. With some PHP and a database server, that should be hacked together quite fast. That way, original book owners could be found. > There seem to be software products devoted to book collectors, but I'm > looking for something really simple. > > Any suggestions? Well, it's all about what you're trying to get done with that tool. If it's about "these are my books" and "allow others to find my because I own the xyz book of computers", then I guess it would be quite easy to build a slim web-based DB frontend. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Feb 22 15:24:11 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:24:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <43FC74E4.2000301@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > The moment anyone wants to deal outside of Ebay and wants Western Union, > simply forward the email to Ebay and report them, the only reason any > seller wants to do this is: Likewise, buyers that want to use Western Union, typically from overseas, are also to be avoided. They may be honest, but somehow something WILL go wrong. In my early days as a seller, four times out of four were complete disasters. Now, when a buyer wires money, I simply refuse it. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Feb 22 15:27:39 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:27:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Is it anyone's experience that they ever do anything against a seller? > > Short of offering something that is outright illegal, it seems that > ebay cares about sellers and don't give much of a damn about buyers. OHHHHH YESSSS... Most Powersellers have plenty of stories about being held across the barrel. Most also learn that the best thing to do is just take it like a prison whore, chalk up the experience as a cost of business, and move on. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 22 15:39:06 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:39:06 -0700 Subject: "my books" web site? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Feb 2006 22:17:01 +0100. <20060222211701.GP19232@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: In article <20060222211701.GP19232 at lug-owl.de>, Jan-Benedict Glaw writes: > On Wed, 2006-02-22 10:49:04 -0700, Richard wrote: > > Does anyone know of a web site with a full ISBN catalog of books where > > you can build a "my books" collection? > > What is the goal you're seeking for? Why is a ISBN catalog needed? ISBN numbers change when editions or bindings (paperback, hardback) change. I've started scanning through ebay looking for older books about computer graphics. Being a relatively new topic, its a 'collecting goal' that is within one's grasp until the point of around... TRON. :-) After that the number of publications starts growing exponentially. However, what I find really interesting about older graphics books is that they have pictures of period gear. Pictures that aren't on the net anywhere as the items all predate the "endless September" of the modern internet. I finally found a picture of an Evans & Sutherland Picture System 300, for instance. So, the 1973 edition of Newmann & Sproul's classic text has different photos and content from the 1978 2nd edition. All the ebay book listings give the ISBN, which lets you easily correlate information with Amazon (just enter the ISBN in the search box and it takes you right to the page). A simple flat text list of an initial book list is at . However, its painfully obvious that this manual approach doesn't scale beyond a handfull of books. I'd like someone *else* to maintain the database of my collection, letting me just click on books I own to mark them as such and share the list of books with others. Again, all this is available on the "my movies" feature of ; if something like that was available for books, it would be perfect. ReaderWare looks interesting, but its $40 which is more than I'm willing to spend, since I'm not a "book collector", I'm a "computer graphics" collector, of which books are a part. Book collector software is probably overkill for what I'm after. I guess I could write a simple web scraper that would get the title, author and year information from amazon from the ISBN, but I'd rather not write anything either. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 22 15:44:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 13:44:32 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <43FCCA8B.9040103@oldskool.org> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0602220416v527f9c01k48143acc8572cea4@mail.gmail.com> <1140613592.26669.6.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> <200602221114400709.2ECB8507@10.0.0.252> <43FCCA8B.9040103@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200602221344320268.2F54B84E@10.0.0.252> On 2/22/2006 at 2:33 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Because you could address by offsets? This: > > mov ax,[si+bx+4] > >...is perfectly valid. > >You know this already, so I'm confused why you asked the question...? Ever tried to work with an array that was much larger than 64K in 16 bit mode? The huge-mode address computation to get from a byte offset to a segment+offset representation is miserable--and a loop that does something like a[i] = b[j]+c[k] where all three arrays are larger than 64K is ridiculous. Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 22 15:46:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 13:46:00 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <43FCCBF6.1030303@oldskool.org> References: <20060222061512.A0CB773029@linus.area51.conman.org> <20060222120352.X58929@shell.lmi.net> <43FCCBF6.1030303@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200602221346000905.2F56128C@10.0.0.252> On 2/22/2006 at 2:39 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >To be honest, they were right. If you wanted more than 640K on a 286, >it was easier and faster to work with a hardware LIM EMS board than it >was to try to do it yourself via protected mode. (I'm talking about the >period before HIMEM.SYS and the formalized XMS standard, but even then, >XMS copies RAM in and out of the 640K-space, whereas EMS would just >slide the window around which was a hell of a lot faster.) Yes and no--if you were savvy enough to know how to use LOADALL, things got somewhat simpler. Cheers, Chuck From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 16:07:47 2006 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:07:47 -0800 Subject: Anyone with an ATW800 (Transputer workstation)? In-Reply-To: <20060217162802.KGNF17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701271BAC@cpexchange.olf.com> <20060217162802.KGNF17838.orval.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> Message-ID: On 2/17/06, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Hi Ram, Dave, have you thought of hooking the scsi drive to an appropriate symbios or adaptec controller (or your choice) on a linux or bsd system and imaging it before it dies, so you have the original data captured? you can dd the data with something like dd if-/dev/sda of=./helos-disk.bin(or whatever) and copy it all. Jim From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 22 16:11:40 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:11:40 -0600 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <200602221344320268.2F54B84E@10.0.0.252> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0602220416v527f9c01k48143acc8572cea4@mail.gmail.com> <1140613592.26669.6.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> <200602221114400709.2ECB8507@10.0.0.252> <43FCCA8B.9040103@oldskool.org> <200602221344320268.2F54B84E@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43FCE19C.8020807@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> You know this already, so I'm confused why you asked the question...? > > Ever tried to work with an array that was much larger than 64K in 16 bit mode? No, because it was a PITA. You tried to? :-) I string accesses together in contiguous 64K chunks. Segment overrides made things slightly less painful... Also, if you really need three 64K sources you can use es:di, ds:si, and ss:sp (just turn off interrupts to (ab)use the stack). You can even use cs:bp if you are completely strapped and need a 4th; just include a giant block of NOP in the code to use as a data space. I'm not saying it's elegant, but it's quicker than recomputing segment:offset all the time. > The huge-mode address computation to get from a byte offset to a > segment+offset representation is miserable--and a loop that does something > like a[i] = b[j]+c[k] where all three arrays are larger than 64K is > ridiculous. Right -- don't do this :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 16:17:28 2006 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:17:28 -0800 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <43FC74E4.2000301@atarimuseum.com> References: <000001c63772$77a1ce10$176fa8c0@obie> <43FC74E4.2000301@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: I have had very good results with reporting fraudulent sellers on ebay. And those sales disappear. I checked the Altair and it was gone by the time I looked. However I checked all three sellers and found that one had 9 more suspicious sales attached to it that I reported. All one day sales from out of the country, for a US seller... It was obvious that the ID had been hijacked, a new technique I am concerned about. Reported and deleted. Thanks for the tip. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 22 16:24:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:24:55 -0700 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:17:28 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Paxton Hoag" writes: > [...] It was obvious that the ID had been > hijacked, a new technique I am concerned about. So do you think they phished for the credentials, or do you think they are running dictionary attacks against ebay ids now? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 22 16:28:53 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:28:53 -0700 Subject: terminals guides on ebay Message-ID: Hi, I've been creating 'guides' on ebay for various terminals. I'd apprecaite any feedback you might have. Please understand that the manufacturer guides are "works in progress". Its pretty limiting to have only 10 pictures per guide... Collecting Vintage Serial Terminals Beehive Serial Terminals DEC Serial Terminals -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Feb 22 16:34:17 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:34:17 -0500 Subject: "my books" web site? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602221734.17480.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 22 February 2006 03:40 pm, Richard wrote: > In article <200602221843.k1MIh1XW001289 at onyx.spiritone.com>, > > "Zane H. Healy" writes: > > > There seem to be software products devoted to book collectors, but I'm > > > looking for something really simple. > > > > > > Any suggestions? > > > > Trust me, I'm cringing as I suggest this. MS Excel. [...] > > I think you're missing what I'm after. I'm not looking to cook up my > own database. If I were going to do that, I'd just download one of > the free tools for libraries. No, I don't want to spend my time > entering ISBN, author and title information. Instead, I want > something like the web sites I mentioned for organizing the books I > own. Really this is something Amazon should be all over, but at the > moment they only use the "I own this" check box to refine further > product suggestions. Not a bad use, really, but not the one I'm > after. You're observing that they're attuned to taking care of _their needs_, and thinking that they should be taking care of _your needs_ instead? Does this make sense? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Feb 22 16:39:23 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:39:23 -0600 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43FCE81B.8010700@mdrconsult.com> Richard wrote: > In article , > "Paxton Hoag" writes: > > >>[...] It was obvious that the ID had been >>hijacked, a new technique I am concerned about. > > > So do you think they phished for the credentials, or do you think they > are running dictionary attacks against ebay ids now? There are some very polished phishes making the rounds lately. *I* got sucked into one last month, and I'm a careful, paranoid bastard. I was tired and the email [purporting to be a question from another eBay user] was very well-done. I was pretty lucky in realizing immediately I'd been had and got all my passwords changed before there was damage. I hope. Doc From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 22 16:40:18 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:40:18 -0600 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <200602221346000905.2F56128C@10.0.0.252> References: <20060222061512.A0CB773029@linus.area51.conman.org> <20060222120352.X58929@shell.lmi.net> <43FCCBF6.1030303@oldskool.org> <200602221346000905.2F56128C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43FCE852.8030504@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2/22/2006 at 2:39 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > >> To be honest, they were right. If you wanted more than 640K on a 286, >> it was easier and faster to work with a hardware LIM EMS board than it >> was to try to do it yourself via protected mode. (I'm talking about the >> period before HIMEM.SYS and the formalized XMS standard, but even then, >> XMS copies RAM in and out of the 640K-space, whereas EMS would just >> slide the window around which was a hell of a lot faster.) > > Yes and no--if you were savvy enough to know how to use LOADALL, things got > somewhat simpler. My balls weren't big enough to try it :-) Maybe today, with all of the documentation, it might be fun to explore. But with emulators all the rage with the kids these days, exploiting LOADALL means that your program would only run on the real thing. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 22 16:45:14 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:45:14 -0600 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43FCE97A.10303@oldskool.org> William Donzelli wrote: >> Is it anyone's experience that they ever do anything against a seller? >> >> Short of offering something that is outright illegal, it seems that >> ebay cares about sellers and don't give much of a damn about buyers. > > OHHHHH YESSSS... > > Most Powersellers have plenty of stories about being held across the > barrel. Most also learn that the best thing to do is just take it like a > prison whore, chalk up the experience as a cost of business, and move on. Seconded. ebay and paypal exist for the buyer, not the seller. I had a friend sell something online for $80, then take the money out. 2 weeks later the buyer claimed that "his computer was taken over by hackers" and denied ever buying the item (which was virtual, ie. no physical product to ship or track). paypal tore the $80 out of his account, which was at 0, which then became -$80 and then immediately -$115 because of an overdraft fee. He had to eat it -- he was out the item *and* the money. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 22 16:46:56 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:46:56 -0600 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <43FCE81B.8010700@mdrconsult.com> References: <43FCE81B.8010700@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43FCE9E0.5020903@oldskool.org> Doc Shipley wrote: >> So do you think they phished for the credentials, or do you think they >> are running dictionary attacks against ebay ids now? > > There are some very polished phishes making the rounds lately. *I* got > sucked into one last month, and I'm a careful, paranoid bastard. I was Thunderbird will display the URL of any link you hover over in an email... so the email will say "www.ebay.com" and the actual displayed link during the hover is "201.22.98.34/incoming/.ebay.com". I've never been phished. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 22 16:56:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:56:15 -0700 Subject: "my books" web site? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:34:17 -0500. <200602221734.17480.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: In article <200602221734.17480.rtellason at blazenet.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > You're observing that [Amazon's] attuned to taking care of _their needs_, and > thinking that they should be taking care of _your needs_ instead? Does this > make sense? I'm their customer. My needs are their needs. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 22 16:59:10 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:59:10 -0700 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:45:14 -0600. <43FCE97A.10303@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <43FCE97A.10303 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > Seconded. ebay and paypal exist for the buyer, not the seller. > [...] Is this why there are some sellers on ebay that are absolutely hostile to anything paypal? I even had one seller that would only accept paypal coupled to a bank account, not a credit card (although how they could tell I don't know). > I had a > friend sell something online for $80, then take the money out. 2 weeks > later the buyer claimed that "his computer was taken over by hackers" > and denied ever buying the item (which was virtual, ie. no physical > product to ship or track). paypal tore the $80 out of his account, > which was at 0, which then became -$80 and then immediately -$115 > because of an overdraft fee. He had to eat it -- he was out the item > *and* the money. There was no intermediate negotiation with the seller? I guess since the product is virtual there was no way to track delivery of the item? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 22 16:59:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:59:43 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <43FCE852.8030504@oldskool.org> References: <20060222061512.A0CB773029@linus.area51.conman.org> <20060222120352.X58929@shell.lmi.net> <43FCCBF6.1030303@oldskool.org> <200602221346000905.2F56128C@10.0.0.252> <43FCE852.8030504@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200602221459430034.2F998C7C@10.0.0.252> On 2/22/2006 at 4:40 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > >My balls weren't big enough to try it :-) Maybe today, with all of the >documentation, it might be fun to explore. But with emulators all the >rage with the kids these days, exploiting LOADALL means that your >program would only run on the real thing. It'd be fun to see which emulators know about 286 LOADALL. Certainly most 386/486 BIOSes trapped it and emulated it. Cheers, Chuck From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 17:01:07 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:01:07 -0500 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <43FCE81B.8010700@mdrconsult.com> References: <43FCE81B.8010700@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On 2/22/06, Doc Shipley wrote: > There are some very polished phishes making the rounds lately. *I* > got sucked into one last month, and I'm a careful, paranoid bastard. I > was tired and the email [purporting to be a question from another eBay > user] was very well-done. I was pretty lucky in realizing immediately > I'd been had and got all my passwords changed before there was damage. > I hope. The warning for this kind of phishes was on this mailing list one month ago. It seems a good habbit to read at least every subject of this mailing list. vax, 9000 > > > Doc > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 22 17:03:38 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:03:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060222141805.05337f28@mail> References: <20060222061512.A0CB773029@linus.area51.conman.org> <20060222120352.X58929@shell.lmi.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060222141805.05337f28@mail> Message-ID: <20060222150225.G96704@shell.lmi.net> > >"Changing modes on the '286 is like having to shut off your car engine on > >the freeway to shift gears." - Gordon Letwin (primary OS/2 at MS) On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, John Foust wrote: > Referring to the method involving the keyboard controller to > make the system change gears by almost rebooting? I ASSUME that is what he was referring to. I should dig out a copy of his book ("Inside OS/2"), and see whether he mentions it there. From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Wed Feb 22 17:03:54 2006 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:03:54 -0000 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay References: <43FCE81B.8010700@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <004a01c63804$4865e5e0$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: ; "and Off-Topic Posts" <"Discussion at mdrconsult.com"@sgrsil41.onetel.net.uk:On-Topiccctalk at classiccm p.org> Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:39 PM Subject: Re: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay > There are some very polished phishes making the rounds lately. *I* > got sucked into one last month, and I'm a careful, paranoid bastard. I > was tired and the email [purporting to be a question from another eBay > user] was very well-done. I was pretty lucky in realizing immediately > I'd been had and got all my passwords changed before there was damage. > I hope. > > > Doc > Any chance of posting the original - if you still have it - for the rest of us to see ? Geoff. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Feb 22 17:04:33 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:04:33 -0600 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <43FCE81B.8010700@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <43FCEE01.7020505@mdrconsult.com> 9000 VAX wrote: > On 2/22/06, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> There are some very polished phishes making the rounds lately. *I* >>got sucked into one last month, and I'm a careful, paranoid bastard. I >>was tired and the email [purporting to be a question from another eBay >>user] was very well-done. I was pretty lucky in realizing immediately >>I'd been had and got all my passwords changed before there was damage. >>I hope. > > > The warning for this kind of phishes was on this mailing list one > month ago. It seems a good habbit to read at least every subject of > this mailing list. Yeah. Guess who posted it? ;) Doc From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 22 17:12:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:12:42 -0800 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <43FCE9E0.5020903@oldskool.org> References: <43FCE81B.8010700@mdrconsult.com> <43FCE9E0.5020903@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200602221512420775.2FA57259@10.0.0.252> On 2/22/2006 at 4:46 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >Thunderbird will display the URL of any link you hover over in an >email... so the email will say "www.ebay.com" and the actual displayed >link during the hover is "201.22.98.34/incoming/.ebay.com". I've never >been phished. The trickier links exploit the more oddball features of browser addresses. Some older versions of IE, for example will swallow things like http://www.ebay.com at 1113982819/ (which actually references google). Sufficiently obscure to fool the casual user. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Feb 22 17:16:04 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:16:04 +0000 Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS Message-ID: <43FCF0B4.4080603@yahoo.co.uk> What's the state of play regarding DOS C compilers? I might have a need to do some DOS-based C development work - are there any good-but-free DOS compilers about? I did have Turbo C on tape, but I haven't tried to read those tapes in years and wouldn't hold out much hope of them still being intact... ta Jules From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 22 17:14:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:14:48 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <20060222150225.G96704@shell.lmi.net> References: <20060222061512.A0CB773029@linus.area51.conman.org> <20060222120352.X58929@shell.lmi.net> <6.2.3.4.2.20060222141805.05337f28@mail> <20060222150225.G96704@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200602221514480957.2FA75F3F@10.0.0.252> >On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, John Foust wrote: >> Referring to the method involving the keyboard controller to >> make the system change gears by almost rebooting? Actually, you DO reboot--there's a flag that's set in CMOS that tells the boot routines what's special about it. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 22 17:21:59 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:21:59 -0800 Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS In-Reply-To: <43FCF0B4.4080603@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43FCF0B4.4080603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200602221521590165.2FADEFC0@10.0.0.252> On 2/22/2006 at 11:16 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >What's the state of play regarding DOS C compilers? I might have a need >to do some DOS-based C development work - are there any good-but-free DOS >compilers about? Unless you're restricted to 16-bit code, I'd recommend you have a look at DJGPP. 32-bit flat mode is wonderful: http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/ Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Feb 22 17:31:08 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:31:08 -0600 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <004a01c63804$4865e5e0$0200a8c0@geoff> References: <43FCE81B.8010700@mdrconsult.com> <004a01c63804$4865e5e0$0200a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <43FCF43C.2050802@mdrconsult.com> Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > > Any chance of posting the original - if you still have it - for the rest of > us to see ? Yeah - I love advertising my own stupidity. :) Seriously, like Jim said, I use Thunderbird, and I *should* have caught the signs. It was late, I was tired, I had just upgraded my system and hadn't finished configuring T-bird to my normal "no HTML" settings. I got careless. Here's a screenshot of the email with HTML display turned on: http://www.docsbox.net/ebay_phish.jpg (~700KB, 700x1024 pixels) What made this extremely slick is that I ended up in *my own* "My eBay" page. Apparently the phish site grabs the login and password, then redirects you to and *through* the real eBay login with that login/password pair. And here's the text with HTML turned off. You can see that without the HTML masking the links, they're very obviously Not Right: Subject: Question from ebay member Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 00:49:04 +0100 From: aw-confirm at ebay.com Reply-To: aw-confirm at ebay.com Organization: for 2 or To: Casey Your registered name is included to show this message originated from eBay. Learn more . *Question about Item -- Respond Now* eBay eBay sent this message on behalf of an eBay member via My Messages. Responses sent using email will go to the eBay member directly and will include your email address. Click the *Respond Now* button below to send your response via My Messages (your email address will not be included). Question from seller Item: (6436472319 ) This message was sent while the listing was *active*. barnsley1105 is a *potential buyer*. Hello , I want to buy purchase your item. please tell me where you shipp from and if you will accept paypal for the payment thank you *Respond to this question in My Messages.* Respond Now *Item Details* Item number: 6436472319 End date: 16-Jan-05 12:14:12 BST View item description: htps://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6436472319&sspagename=ADME:B:AAQ:UK:1 Thank you for using eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/ Marketplace Safety Tip *Marketplace Safety Tip * *Always remember to complete your transactions on eBay - it's the safer way to trade.* Is this message an offer to buy your item directly through email without winning the item on eBay? If so, please help make the eBay marketplace safer by reporting it to us. These external transactions may be unsafe and are against eBay policy. Learn more about trading safely . Is this email inappropriate? Does it breach eBay policy ? Help protect the community by reporting it . Learn how you can protect yourself from spoof (fake) emails at: https://pages.ebay.co.uk/education/spooftutorial This eBay notice was sent to canguru_usere200 at yahoo.com on behalf of another eBay member through the eBay platform and in accordance with our Privacy Policy. If you would like to receive this email in text format, change your notification preferences . See our Privacy Policy and User Agreement if you have questions about eBay's communication policies. Privacy Policy: https://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/privacy-policy.html User Agreement: https://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/user-agreement.html Copyright ? 2005 eBay, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective owners. eBay and the eBay logo are registered trademarks or trademarks of eBay, Inc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From davidfrkane at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 17:34:47 2006 From: davidfrkane at gmail.com (David Kane) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:34:47 +1100 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <43FCE9E0.5020903@oldskool.org> References: <43FCE81B.8010700@mdrconsult.com> <43FCE9E0.5020903@oldskool.org> Message-ID: > > Thunderbird will display the URL of any link you hover over in an > email... so the email will say "www.ebay.com" and the actual displayed > link during the hover is "201.22.98.34/incoming/.ebay.com". I've never > been phished. One phishing email had what looked like a link in the email and I hovered over it and it put http://www.ebay.com or the link in the status bar. I wanted to right click and bring up the properties of the link to copy it for further inspection as I susspected a phishing attack. Then I got the image properties. I viewed the page source and I realised the email was an image, and the clear dick running the attack had put an image map at the click point of the URL link looking part of the image. The image map ref was a http://x.x.x.x/blah type link to the no doubt phishing site, and the www.ebay.com URL was a ref for the whole image. IE only showed the whole image ref when hovered over, but would have run the image map ref when clicked. The site would then only have needed to somehow cover its real identity in the address bar when loaded and I would have been completely fooled. Very slick. I got lucky David From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Feb 22 17:31:40 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:31:40 -0500 Subject: "my books" web site? In-Reply-To: <008a01c637f1$29403e80$c20a000a@mvista.com> References: <008a01c637f1$29403e80$c20a000a@mvista.com> Message-ID: <200602221831.40163.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 22 February 2006 03:47 pm, Lee Courtney wrote: > Data from a buddy of mine: > > Here is (most) of my library, on-line! I used this fascinating (and > inexpensive) tool called "Readerware" that lets you scan a book's barcode, > then which crawls on the web and pulls in all the data it can find on it. > Still have 100 or so more books to catalog. (as they turn up in my garage.) Interesting product, and I'm downloading it as I type this... It's funny, too, that they mention the cuecat scanner as an input device -- I have a couple of these from when radio shack was giving them away free for the asking, and was wondering what I was gonna do with them. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Wed Feb 22 17:37:56 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:37:56 -0500 Subject: "my books" web site? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602221837.56214.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 22 February 2006 05:56 pm, Richard wrote: > In article <200602221734.17480.rtellason at blazenet.net>, > > "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > > You're observing that [Amazon's] attuned to taking care of _their needs_, > > and thinking that they should be taking care of _your needs_ instead? > > Does this make sense? > > I'm their customer. My needs are their needs. Funny how often those two are viewed differently, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 22 18:12:48 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:12:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <200602221512420775.2FA57259@10.0.0.252> from Chuck Guzis at "Feb 22, 6 03:12:42 pm" Message-ID: <200602230012.QAA18990@floodgap.com> > >Thunderbird will display the URL of any link you hover over in an > >email... so the email will say "www.ebay.com" and the actual displayed > >link during the hover is "201.22.98.34/incoming/.ebay.com". I've never > >been phished. > > The trickier links exploit the more oddball features of browser addresses. > Some older versions of IE, for example will swallow things like > http://www.ebay.com at 1113982819/ (which actually references google). > Sufficiently obscure to fool the casual user. Elm shows HTML as plain text so that all secrets are revealed. :) I just delete HTML only mail. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- High explosives are applicable where truth and logic fail. ----------------- From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 22 18:29:05 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:29:05 -0700 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:12:48 -0800. <200602230012.QAA18990@floodgap.com> Message-ID: In article <200602230012.QAA18990 at floodgap.com>, Cameron Kaiser writes: > Elm shows HTML as plain text so that all secrets are revealed. :) I just > delete HTML only mail. I've never had a problem with MH either :-). The funny thing is that spammers send viruses with a forged From: address that is my address. So occasionally I'll get mail (usually automated, sometimes hand-sent) telling me that I'm "infected with a virus" and sending it around. Its not me, though. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Feb 22 18:42:14 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:42:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay Message-ID: <200602230042.QAA07976@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Chuck Guzis" ---snip--- > >The trickier links exploit the more oddball features of browser addresses. > Some older versions of IE, for example will swallow things like >http://www.ebay.com at 1113982819/ (which actually references google). >Sufficiently obscure to fool the casual user. > >Cheers, >Chuck > Hi I receive at least 2 or 3 phishing emails a day. The best defense is to alway log on separately to the acount ( ebay, bank, credit card or what ever ). Never and I mean NEVER!!! use a link from an email to access a password account. If it looks like something from ebay, it will be there in your account on ebay. That is the way to look for it and not by some pointer in an email. Dwight From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 22 18:43:38 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:43:38 -0800 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay Message-ID: <43FD053A.809CDB4F@rain.org> I know of an instance where about $10K was held up by PayPal because of a dispute that eventually headed to court. I've never had any problems with PayPal, but I am very careful and distrustful of the "service". I rather doubt that how the funds were transferred has any relevance. > From: Richard > > In article <43FCE97A.10303 at oldskool.org>, > Jim Leonard writes: > > > Seconded. ebay and paypal exist for the buyer, not the seller. > > [...] > > Is this why there are some sellers on ebay that are absolutely hostile > to anything paypal? I even had one seller that would only accept > paypal coupled to a bank account, not a credit card (although how they > could tell I don't know). From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Feb 22 18:50:31 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:50:31 -0600 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <200602230042.QAA07976@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200602230042.QAA07976@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <43FD06D7.7070001@mdrconsult.com> Dwight Elvey wrote: > I receive at least 2 or 3 phishing emails a day. > The best defense is to alway log on separately to > the acount ( ebay, bank, credit card or what ever ). > Never and I mean NEVER!!! use a link from an email to > access a password account. > If it looks like something from ebay, it will be there > in your account on ebay. That is the way to look for it > and not by some pointer in an email. This is very true, and the very best defense. And as silly as it seems, I always report a phish that makes it past my filters. If I notice them in my spam-traps, I report those too. It may not do much good in a larger sense, but it does a _lot_ of good for my feelings! Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 22 18:48:17 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 00:48:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <200602230012.QAA18990@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Feb 22, 6 04:12:48 pm Message-ID: > Elm shows HTML as plain text so that all secrets are revealed. :) I just > delete HTML only mail. That's exactly what I do. Well, if the html mail comes from somebody I think I recognise, I try to make sense of it (and send a nastygram back!), but I do that by hand, so I spot any odd-looking links. Ditto for mime-encoded mail (or even uuencoded mail). If I am not expecting it, I delete it. I certainly don't execute it! I'm going to get caught one day, but it's a lot harder to hide stuff in mail that's read on a text-only machine that doesn't automatically interpret html (or anything else for that matter) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 22 18:50:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 00:50:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: "my books" web site? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Feb 22, 6 02:39:06 pm Message-ID: > modern internet. I finally found a picture of an Evans & Sutherland > Picture System 300, for instance. Alternatively you could have asked here. I own a PS/390, along with the monitor, keyboard, twiddlebox, tablet, 3D imager and PAL encoder. I can't easily send you pictures, but I can describe the system. Give me a bit of time and I could be convinced to pull the boards and describe those too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 22 18:37:34 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 00:37:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <20060222203529.3CFC573029@linus.area51.conman.org> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Feb 22, 6 03:35:21 pm Message-ID: > Yup. Because once in protected mode on the 286, you can't get out unless > you reset the CPU. > > -spc (I think you could get out by tripple faulting ... ) Could you, in general. I think you can on the PC/AT, but I seem to recall a circuit that detects the odd state of the bus status lines if you get a triple fault, and then resets the CPU, or toggles a pin on the keyboard controller, or... -tony From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 18:56:42 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 00:56:42 +0000 Subject: "my books" web site? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a640602221656y52c659f6y@mail.gmail.com> On 22/02/06, Richard wrote: > Does anyone know of a web site with a full ISBN catalog of books where > you can build a "my books" collection? > > I'm thinking of something similar to the "My Movies" section of > or the "DVDs I Own" section of > . > > Amazon gives you a checkbox that says "I own it", but no way to list > all the books you've marked as such. I think they only use this for > product suggestions and don't let you build a collection list on their > site. > > There seem to be software products devoted to book collectors, but I'm > looking for something really simple. > > Any suggestions? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > There is a crude way that might backfire on you. Set up a wishlist on Amazon you can search by isbn or whatever you like. Just make sure people know not to buy them for you. Dan From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 19:01:08 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 01:01:08 +0000 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <43FCE97A.10303@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <26c11a640602221701q7be0efe4m@mail.gmail.com> > Is this why there are some sellers on ebay that are absolutely hostile > to anything paypal? I even had one seller that would only accept > paypal coupled to a bank account, not a credit card (although how they > could tell I don't know). > I think that is because they didn't have a verified account. I had the same from a seller in Germany they left me bad feedback because I don't have that set up on my account. They would only accept a bank transfer which would of cost me ?30 for an item that only cost ?20 which I refused to pay. Dan From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 22 19:01:19 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:01:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <43FD053A.809CDB4F@rain.org> References: <43FD053A.809CDB4F@rain.org> Message-ID: <20060222164709.X96704@shell.lmi.net> > Is this why there are some sellers on ebay that are absolutely hostile > to anything paypal? I even had one seller that would only accept > paypal coupled to a bank account, not a credit card (although how they > could tell I don't know). the easiest Paypal account to get lets you receive bank account money transfers for free, but charges fairly stiff fees for receiving credit card payments. That is one of several reasons. There is also the issue of "chargebacks" being easier to do with credit card companies than with banks. From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 19:11:46 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 01:11:46 +0000 Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS In-Reply-To: <43FCF0B4.4080603@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43FCF0B4.4080603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <26c11a640602221711r3c756f1eq@mail.gmail.com> On 22/02/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > > What's the state of play regarding DOS C compilers? I might have a need to do > some DOS-based C development work - are there any good-but-free DOS compilers > about? > > I did have Turbo C on tape, but I haven't tried to read those tapes in years > and wouldn't hold out much hope of them still being intact... > > ta > > Jules > > You can download Turbo C for dos free on their website. http://community.borland.com/article/0,1410,20841,00.html Dan From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 19:20:31 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 20:20:31 -0500 Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS In-Reply-To: <43FCF0B4.4080603@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43FCF0B4.4080603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 2/22/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > > What's the state of play regarding DOS C compilers? I might have a need to do > some DOS-based C development work - are there any good-but-free DOS compilers > about? Free DOS C compilers: Turbo C 2.01, Openwatcom (watcom 11.0c, open watcom 1.4); Pacific C; DJGPP. All freely downloadable. Open watcom and DJGPP come with source. I have tried them all recently. DJCPP does not support 16 bit code; Turbo C 2.01 does not surport 32 bit code; Open Watcom 1.4 supports all. > > I did have Turbo C on tape, but I haven't tried to read those tapes in years > and wouldn't hold out much hope of them still being intact... > > ta > > Jules > > From bob099 at centurytel.net Wed Feb 22 19:20:38 2006 From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Choctaw Bob) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 19:20:38 -0600 Subject: Robinson's Difference Engine #1 from standard Meccano parts Message-ID: <43FD0DE6.10605@centurytel.net> http://meccano.us/difference_engines/rde_1/ From shirsch at adelphia.net Wed Feb 22 19:24:33 2006 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 20:24:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Feb 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > > Yup. Because once in protected mode on the 286, you can't get out unless > > you reset the CPU. > > > > -spc (I think you could get out by tripple faulting ... ) > > Could you, in general. I think you can on the PC/AT, but I seem to recall > a circuit that detects the odd state of the bus status lines if you get a > triple fault, and then resets the CPU, or toggles a pin on the keyboard > controller, or... By lore, Gordon Letwin was responsible for coding a hack which used the keyboard controller MPU to reset the CPU and throw it back into real mode. I guess it worked, but was incredibly slow. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 22 19:28:26 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:28:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS In-Reply-To: <43FCF0B4.4080603@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43FCF0B4.4080603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060222172042.U96704@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > What's the state of play regarding DOS C compilers? I might have a need to do > some DOS-based C development work - are there any good-but-free DOS compilers > about? > > I did have Turbo C on tape, but I haven't tried to read those tapes in years > and wouldn't hold out much hope of them still being intact... Take a look at: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/msdos-programmer-faq/part5/section-10.html I understand that Dave Dunfield helped put that list together. PCC (aka DeSmet C) is a good simple command line compiler. It's excellent for learning on, but has some issues with large programs. TurboC 2.x is an easy to use IDE. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Feb 22 20:32:24 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 20:32:24 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <43FC74E4.2000301@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060222203224.107fdc94@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:24 PM 2/22/06 -0500, you wrote: >> The moment anyone wants to deal outside of Ebay and wants Western Union, >> simply forward the email to Ebay and report them, the only reason any >> seller wants to do this is: > >Likewise, buyers that want to use Western Union, typically from overseas, >are also to be avoided. They may be honest, but somehow something WILL go >wrong. That's funny. I regularly get payments via WU and I've NEVER had a problem. I know E-bay/PayPal likes to insist that WU and all other forms of payment are dangerous but that's only because they're trying to dominate the market. I don't know of ANY actual problems with WU and I sure can't say that about PayPal! Joe In my early days as a seller, four times out of four were complete >disasters. Now, when a buyer wires money, I simply refuse it. > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Feb 22 20:37:19 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 20:37:19 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <43FCE97A.10303@oldskool.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060222203719.1127386c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:45 PM 2/22/06 -0600, you wrote: >William Donzelli wrote: >>> Is it anyone's experience that they ever do anything against a seller? >>> >>> Short of offering something that is outright illegal, it seems that >>> ebay cares about sellers and don't give much of a damn about buyers. >> >> OHHHHH YESSSS... >> >> Most Powersellers have plenty of stories about being held across the >> barrel. Most also learn that the best thing to do is just take it like a >> prison whore, chalk up the experience as a cost of business, and move on. > >Seconded. ebay and paypal exist for the buyer, not the seller. I had a >friend sell something online for $80, then take the money out. 2 weeks >later the buyer claimed that "his computer was taken over by hackers" >and denied ever buying the item (which was virtual, ie. no physical >product to ship or track). paypal tore the $80 out of his account, So much for the theory that E-bay only exist for the sellers! >which was at 0, which then became -$80 and then immediately -$115 >because of an overdraft fee. He had to eat it -- he was out the item >*and* the money. This is EXACTLY why I refuse to take payments via PayPal. A lot of uninformed users insist that they're safe as long as they keep $0 in their accounts but they're not. Joe >-- >Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ >Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ >Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ >A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Feb 22 19:41:54 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 19:41:54 -0600 Subject: "my books" web site? Message-ID: <8a3c509042ad4fa7b4b2c733bb35d03b@valleyimplants.com> You need to ask yourself what exactly you are trying to do with the software. ILS (library automation) software is probably overkill. MARC import (what's been talked about- you enter the ISBN and it pulls over MARC cataloging data from LC/Marvel [most often] and/or a proprietary database) is excellent for library use, but a number of specialized books don't have LC CIP data easily available, and need to be entered by hand. #2 question is do you need circulation. Most of these systems are designed to implement electronic CIRC, which could be nice if you routinely lend books out, but could also be a hassle. Things to check: Haven't had much experience with Readerware, looked at Athaenium (you can still get the free version) but it doesn't have MARC import or seperate bib/holding records (might not matter for the private collector) Koha looked interesting, Mandarin M3 could also be used. An advantage of these is that they are set up for an internet environment. M3 has many optional modules that are $$$, Koha is all free. Both look like they could support a fairly large-size library. The downside of M3 is that (a) only runs on windows (b) if you aren't familiar with MARC, you're sunk. There's another free ILS program that sounds very good but I can't remember the name right now. I can remember that its major fault is that it is only available in Portugese (Brazil funding, written at a Brazilian university). A spreadsheet might be your best shot. A filter to convert EAN (most book barcodes) to ISBN should not be hard, it's just a matter of stripping the first two digits and then putting the proper last digit on. Downside is that you can't search or track circ. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Feb 22 20:52:09 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 20:52:09 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <26c11a640602221701q7be0efe4m@mail.gmail.com> References: <43FCE97A.10303@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060222205209.11279c4c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:01 AM 2/23/06 +0000, you wrote: >> Is this why there are some sellers on ebay that are absolutely hostile >> to anything paypal? I even had one seller that would only accept >> paypal coupled to a bank account, not a credit card (although how they >> could tell I don't know). >> >I > think that is because they didn't have a verified account. I had the >same from a seller in Germany they left me bad feedback because I >don't have that set up on my account. They would only accept a bank >transfer which would of cost me ?30 for an item that only cost ?20 >which I refused to pay. I hate to say it but they were right and you were wrong. You should have made sure of the payment details BEFORE you bid. I look at the payment method/details, hidden and/or excessive charges and any other unreasonable terms on EVERY auction BEFORE I bid on them. I frequently don't bid on items because of unreasonable terms, excesssive handling charges and the like. I suspect sellers require verified accounts because credit cards are EASY to come by. There's seldom a day that goes by that I don't get an offer for a credit card and many of them don't require any application. Credit card numbers are also easily hijacked. They recently arrested several people that worked at a major hotel here in the Orlando area. They had copied the CC numbers from something like 6000 customers! Joe > >Dan > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 22 20:02:41 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:02:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: "my books" web site? In-Reply-To: <8a3c509042ad4fa7b4b2c733bb35d03b@valleyimplants.com> References: <8a3c509042ad4fa7b4b2c733bb35d03b@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <20060222175454.E96704@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > A spreadsheet might be your best shot. A filter to convert EAN (most > book barcodes) to ISBN should not be hard, it's just a matter of > stripping the first two digits and then putting the proper last digit > on. Downside is that you can't search or track circ. . . . but MANY of the books that are on topic here predate widespread use of EAN or ISBN. A flat file, such as a spreadsheet should be adequate for a small collection. A hierarchical, or relational, database would add the benefit of being able to have detailed records of authors, publishers, etc, without replication of that data. I HAD a ~1990 set of Books In Print, but that is now in Sellam's warehouse. If you don't need full MARC records, and can cut your data down to 80 chars per record, then use punch cards. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 22 20:06:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:06:35 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <43FCE19C.8020807@oldskool.org> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0602220416v527f9c01k48143acc8572cea4@mail.gmail.com> <1140613592.26669.6.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> <200602221114400709.2ECB8507@10.0.0.252> <43FCCA8B.9040103@oldskool.org> <200602221344320268.2F54B84E@10.0.0.252> <43FCE19C.8020807@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200602221806350947.3044A190@10.0.0.252> On 2/22/2006 at 4:11 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > >> The huge-mode address computation to get from a byte offset to a >> segment+offset representation is miserable--and a loop that does >something >> like a[i] = b[j]+c[k] where all three arrays are larger than 64K is >> ridiculous. > >Right -- don't do this :-) Yeah, but when I saw the hoops one had to jump through on 8086 code for large structures with the sales engineer sitting there with a straight face and telling me it was ONLY 7 instructions, I became an instant fan of the 68000--just about had management convinced that 68K was the way to go when Bill Davidow (who was on the board) got wind of it and unilaterally shot it down. We ended up debugging the early steppings of the 80186. We had a socket onboard for the 286 but it was nowhere near ready for primetime yet. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Feb 22 20:12:59 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:12:59 -0500 Subject: "my books" web site? References: <8a3c509042ad4fa7b4b2c733bb35d03b@valleyimplants.com> <20060222175454.E96704@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <010f01c6381e$ab9dd5e0$72781941@game> This software (at least older versions of it I have seen) can take a set of ISBN numbers and crawl the web (Amazon and Barnes & Noble are in its list) to download the picture of the book and all other information available and add it to your database. Its not that expensive $39.95. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Feb 22 20:23:28 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:23:28 -0500 Subject: "my books" web site? References: <8a3c509042ad4fa7b4b2c733bb35d03b@valleyimplants.com> <20060222175454.E96704@shell.lmi.net> <010f01c6381e$ab9dd5e0$72781941@game> Message-ID: <011601c63820$239cb7e0$72781941@game> http://www.fnprg.com/bookcat/features.html Forgot the link ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teo Zenios" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 9:12 PM Subject: Re: "my books" web site? > This software (at least older versions of it I have seen) can take a set of > ISBN numbers and crawl the web (Amazon and Barnes & Noble are in its list) > to download the picture of the book and all other information available and > add it to your database. Its not that expensive $39.95. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Feb 22 20:37:58 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:37:58 -0800 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060222205209.11279c4c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <43FCE97A.10303@oldskool.org> <3.0.6.16.20060222205209.11279c4c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43FD2006.6080707@msm.umr.edu> Joe R. wrote: >At 01:01 AM 2/23/06 +0000, you wrote: > > >>>Is this why there are some sellers on ebay that are absolutely hostile >>>to anything paypal? I even had one seller that would only accept >>>paypal coupled to a bank account, not a credit card (although how they >>>could tell I don't know). >>> >>> >>> >>I >>think that is because they didn't have a verified account. I had the >>same from a seller in Germany they left me bad feedback because I >>don't have that set up on my account. They would only accept a bank >>transfer which would of cost me ?30 for an item that only cost ?20 >>which I refused to pay. >> >> > > I hate to say it but they were right and you were wrong. You should have >made sure of the payment details BEFORE you bid. I look at the payment >method/details, hidden and/or excessive charges and any other unreasonable >terms on EVERY auction BEFORE I bid on them. I frequently don't bid on >items because of unreasonable terms, excesssive handling charges and the like. > > > > > a friend of mine does my papals for me. He has a "verified" account, which is a 0 balance bank account attached to a low limit credit card on paypal. No matter what paypal wants to try, they cannot get anything from the bank, and the credit card will be disputed in the case of a draw by paypal to try to satisfy some sort of game they might play. he never pays any of our paypals with any balance in the bank, and always with the credit card backing the transaction. If the vendor is selling on ebay, and is using a vendor registered account he has to take that sort of transaction as payment. Only people who have not been blessed to be made commercial accounts can insist on the non credit transfer, and may not be able to take the credit card payments. I agree with you completely on the terms, but if you are selling on ebay and take paypal, the above scenario is fair and fully protective of the buyer's postion as can be. I refused to upgrade to a paypal account with any of my bank accounts because I didn't have the luxury my friend has of a "free" checking account i could let stand idle. I have to pay $12 on my accounts / month, so I don't have any more than I need. Before you go off on the tradeoffs and topic further, I find this cheaper to just be done with than to satisfy the conditions to get a "free" account any more. Only people who have had the luck to find truly free checking with a resonable bank in the past, and have kept it are the ones I find to have such an account. We have not been taken yet in over 300 transactions buying and probably 20 selling. Emailing and asking a vendor to state the total before bidding if it is not absolutly clear is as necessary as if you were standing in a store and need to ask "what does it take to get out of here with this (other than to grab and run)?" I usually even inform the sellers when am going to snipe and why due to idiots who bid up auctions needlessly with small increments. that is a whole other rant jim From news at computercollector.com Wed Feb 22 20:54:15 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:54:15 -0500 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <43FD2006.6080707@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <003701c63824$6ee928b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>> due to idiots who bid up auctions needlessly with small increments Just because someone is a novice user or and unaware of sniping doesn't make them an idiot. Plenty of normal and educated people who aren't technical like us understand "auction" to be "you bid this, than I bid that plus a little more, and we go back and forth until someone stops bidding." Your statement is just another example of why we nerds are often considered rude and socially clueless -- saying things like "you don't know how to do it, so you must be an idiot." Jim, I know you and I know you are not an idiot (plus I'm not a fan of name-calling), but that * statement * was pretty idiotic. :) From marvin at rain.org Wed Feb 22 21:04:23 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 19:04:23 -0800 Subject: Squeal on Older Hard Drives Message-ID: <43FD2637.17B85582@rain.org> Interesting FYI ... Like anyone who has been around the early days of micro HDs, I have heard HDs make an attention getting squeal. After a while, we knew/found out that it was caused by the grounding spring on the bottom of the drive, and bend it out of the way. In glancing through some old Compaq Service Bulletins, I saw IN PRINT that the fix was to remove the grounding strap with the comment that the drive is adequately grounded though other contact points. From james.w.stephens at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 21:11:13 2006 From: james.w.stephens at gmail.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 19:11:13 -0800 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <003701c63824$6ee928b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <43FD2006.6080707@msm.umr.edu> <003701c63824$6ee928b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: I know what I am talking about when I speak of idiots here. I am talking about ones who have > 50 or more auctions, and have done it on other auctions. If you want to buy something, put in a reasonably large bid and take it. when someone enters a large number $10 bids on an auction that eventually closes at 150 or so, they are either trying to run up your bill or are in cahouts with the seller. I excuse 0 feedback people and so forth, and have actually had very little problem with them, and never in this way. When an item that should go for $40 or so sets around with your maximum bid of say $200, and after a couple of days someone comes in and runs it to $150, the only one who can possibly be happy is the vendor. I'm not because the person ran up my bill, and the person is not because I got the item. So I stand on my calling those sorts idiots. I used that term to keep this nearer to a family readable format. Jim On 2/22/06, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > > >>>> due to idiots who bid up auctions needlessly with small increments > > Just because someone is a novice user or and unaware of sniping doesn't > make > them an idiot. The sniping is not the problem, It's my solution. I hate that I can't put a bid in on something when I find it and find the above happened Plenty of normal and educated people who aren't technical like us understand > "auction" to be "you bid this, than I bid that plus a little more, and we > go > back and forth until someone stops bidding." the bids that were put in were over a short period and were small increments that were never answered by another bidder, only my reserve. that made me very unhappy. Your statement is just another example of why we nerds are often considered > rude and socially clueless -- saying things like "you don't know how to do > it, so you must be an idiot." not my point at all, sorry if you took it to be so. Jim, I know you and I know you are not an idiot (plus I'm not a fan of > name-calling), but that * statement * was pretty idiotic. :) > > ok, but I stand by the example. I didn't intend for this to take up so many words to make my point, and apologize for my lack of being able to express what I meant the first time and with less verbage. jim From news at computercollector.com Wed Feb 22 21:18:20 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 22:18:20 -0500 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003901c63827$cc5db0d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>> I am talking about ones who have > 50 or more auctions, and have done it on other auctions. .... I used that term to keep this nearer to a family readable format. Errr, okay. That's quite a big asterisk after "idiots", but okay. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim stephens Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 10:11 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay I know what I am talking about when I speak of idiots here. I am talking about ones who have > 50 or more auctions, and have done it on other auctions. If you want to buy something, put in a reasonably large bid and take it. when someone enters a large number $10 bids on an auction that eventually closes at 150 or so, they are either trying to run up your bill or are in cahouts with the seller. I excuse 0 feedback people and so forth, and have actually had very little problem with them, and never in this way. When an item that should go for $40 or so sets around with your maximum bid of say $200, and after a couple of days someone comes in and runs it to $150, the only one who can possibly be happy is the vendor. I'm not because the person ran up my bill, and the person is not because I got the item. So I stand on my calling those sorts idiots. I used that term to keep this nearer to a family readable format. Jim On 2/22/06, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > > >>>> due to idiots who bid up auctions needlessly with small > >>>> increments > > Just because someone is a novice user or and unaware of sniping > doesn't make them an idiot. The sniping is not the problem, It's my solution. I hate that I can't put a bid in on something when I find it and find the above happened Plenty of normal and educated people who aren't technical like us understand > "auction" to be "you bid this, than I bid that plus a little more, and we > go > back and forth until someone stops bidding." the bids that were put in were over a short period and were small increments that were never answered by another bidder, only my reserve. that made me very unhappy. Your statement is just another example of why we nerds are often considered > rude and socially clueless -- saying things like "you don't know how to do > it, so you must be an idiot." not my point at all, sorry if you took it to be so. Jim, I know you and I know you are not an idiot (plus I'm not a fan of > name-calling), but that * statement * was pretty idiotic. :) > > ok, but I stand by the example. I didn't intend for this to take up so many words to make my point, and apologize for my lack of being able to express what I meant the first time and with less verbage. jim From davidfrkane at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 21:50:13 2006 From: davidfrkane at gmail.com (David Kane) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:50:13 +1100 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <43FD2006.6080707@msm.umr.edu> <003701c63824$6ee928b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: On 2/23/06, jim stephens wrote: > > If you want to buy something, put in a reasonably large bid and take it. > when > someone enters a large number $10 bids on an auction that eventually > closes > at 150 or so, they are either trying to run up your bill or are in cahouts > with the > seller. So if I see an auction at $10 and put in a speclative $20 (what I am willing at the outset to bid) and the original reserve put the aution to $21. Then you consider a few extra increments (I have done 5 extra before) above what I initially guessed my limit at as poor form and warrenting an "idiot" tag? David From vrs at msn.com Wed Feb 22 21:57:21 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 19:57:21 -0800 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay References: <3.0.6.16.20060222203719.1127386c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > >Seconded. ebay and paypal exist for the buyer, not the seller. I had a > >friend sell something online for $80, then take the money out. 2 weeks > >later the buyer claimed that "his computer was taken over by hackers" > >and denied ever buying the item (which was virtual, ie. no physical > >product to ship or track). paypal tore the $80 out of his account, > > So much for the theory that E-bay only exist for the sellers! Actually, my opinion is that eBay is heavily biased toward the seller, and could care less about buyers. Which actually makes sense, given their revenue model. PayPal has a different revenue model, and a different set of biases. They also have to deal with restrictions imposed by credit card transactions. As a result, PayPal is much more biased toward the buyer. Vince From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 22 22:13:13 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 20:13:13 -0800 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <009701c6382d$401d8cc0$6700a8c0@vrs> References: <3.0.6.16.20060222203719.1127386c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <009701c6382d$401d8cc0$6700a8c0@vrs> Message-ID: <200602222013130658.30B88FD3@10.0.0.252> It might make the most sense in online auctions if ALL bids were snipes. Simply bid what you're willing to pay for the item and if it's more than the reserve and higher than any other bid, you've won it by whatever the bid increment is. That's the way I bid on all of my eBay purchases. When I place my snipe bid, I say "I'd be willing to pay this much for the item, after which either I'm not sufficiently interested or I know where I can purchase the same thing cheaper". There's no stress of seeing if anyone else has bid more than I. If I want the item badly enough, I'll get it--no "auction fever". There are some categories where sniping seems to be the rule more than exception and others where the reverse is true. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 22 22:16:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 20:16:46 -0800 Subject: Squeal on Older Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <43FD2637.17B85582@rain.org> References: <43FD2637.17B85582@rain.org> Message-ID: <200602222016460564.30BBCF7D@10.0.0.252> On 2/22/2006 at 7:04 PM Marvin Johnston wrote: >Interesting FYI ... Like anyone who has been around the early days of >micro HDs, I have heard HDs make an attention getting squeal. There's another type of squeal on older 5.25" drives. Some (Rodime, maybe) used a spindle brake where a solenoid is attached to a friction pad normally pressed against the spindle. I've had one or two drives where the solenoid or its driving circuitry didn't work and there was a terrible squeal as the friction pad worked against the spindle. I simply removed the solenoid and allowed sufficient time for the unit to spin down normally before moving the unit. Cheers, Chuck From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 22:25:07 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:25:07 -0500 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <200602222013130658.30B88FD3@10.0.0.252> References: <3.0.6.16.20060222203719.1127386c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <009701c6382d$401d8cc0$6700a8c0@vrs> <200602222013130658.30B88FD3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: I had an auction. A placed a very high bid. B ran up the bid and finally B exceeded A. Then at the last minute, B canceled his bid "to allow others to buy with a lower price". There was no other bid because the price was high enough to scare away potential bidders. The end price was very very low. 1/5 of any other similar items. So now I insist no retreatment in last 24 hours. I also place a reasonable start price at which I am willing to sell. vax, 9000 From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Feb 22 22:26:46 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:26:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I had an auction. A placed a very high bid. B ran up the bid and > finally B exceeded A. Then at the last minute, B canceled his bid "to > allow others to buy with a lower price". There was no other bid > because the price was high enough to scare away potential bidders. The > end price was very very low. 1/5 of any other similar items. That trick is called a bid sheild. Illegal, petty much. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Feb 22 22:28:17 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 20:28:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20060222203719.1127386c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <009701c6382d$401d8cc0$6700a8c0@vrs> <200602222013130658.30B88FD3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, 9000 VAX wrote: > I had an auction. A placed a very high bid. B ran up the bid and > finally B exceeded A. Then at the last minute, B canceled his bid "to > allow others to buy with a lower price". There was no other bid > because the price was high enough to scare away potential bidders. The > end price was very very low. 1/5 of any other similar items. Okay, now THAT is clearly a Naughty Thing. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Wed Feb 22 22:43:10 2006 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:43:10 -0500 Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS In-Reply-To: <20060222172042.U96704@shell.lmi.net> References: <43FCF0B4.4080603@yahoo.co.uk> <20060222172042.U96704@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Feb 22, 2006, at 8:28 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > PCC (aka DeSmet C) is a good simple command line compiler. > It's excellent for learning on, but has some issues with large > programs. > > TurboC 2.x is an easy to use IDE. Watcom is also available as open source now. Early versions of Turbo C are freely available, gcc for DOS works, and there are probably half a dozen other compilers. From RMeenaks at olf.com Wed Feb 22 22:49:24 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:49:24 -0500 Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701271D37@cpexchange.olf.com> Watcom C is available which is pretty good. You can also get GCC for DOS as well... Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 6:16 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS > > > > What's the state of play regarding DOS C compilers? I might > have a need to do > some DOS-based C development work - are there any > good-but-free DOS compilers > about? > > I did have Turbo C on tape, but I haven't tried to read those > tapes in years > and wouldn't hold out much hope of them still being intact... > > ta > > Jules > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Feb 22 22:53:59 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:53:59 -0500 Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701271D37@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <015501c63835$299fd2c0$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 11:49 PM Subject: RE: C Compilers for (MS)DOS > Watcom C is available which is pretty good. You can also get GCC for > DOS as well... > > Wasn't the old full Borland C++ package pretty much the standard (and most supported for DOS) back in those days? I still see the Borland packages commanding some money on ebay while the cheaper Turbo C from the same company is not in that much of a demand From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 22:57:43 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:57:43 -0500 Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS In-Reply-To: <015501c63835$299fd2c0$72781941@game> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701271D37@cpexchange.olf.com> <015501c63835$299fd2c0$72781941@game> Message-ID: On 2/22/06, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 11:49 PM > Subject: RE: C Compilers for (MS)DOS > > > > Watcom C is available which is pretty good. You can also get GCC for > > DOS as well... > > > > > > Wasn't the old full Borland C++ package pretty much the standard (and most > supported for DOS) back in those days? I still see the Borland packages > commanding some money on ebay while the cheaper Turbo C from the same > company is not in that much of a demand because you can download turbo C 2.01 from borland.com. > > > From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 23:04:23 2006 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 00:04:23 -0500 Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS In-Reply-To: <43FCF0B4.4080603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: How about anything that'd fit on an atari portfolio, in 64kb ram card?:) On 2/22/06 6:16 PM, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > > What's the state of play regarding DOS C compilers? I might have a need to do > some DOS-based C development work - are there any good-but-free DOS compilers > about? > > I did have Turbo C on tape, but I haven't tried to read those tapes in years > and wouldn't hold out much hope of them still being intact... > > ta > > Jules > From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 22 23:14:24 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:14:24 -0600 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <200602222013130658.30B88FD3@10.0.0.252> References: <3.0.6.16.20060222203719.1127386c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <009701c6382d$401d8cc0$6700a8c0@vrs> <200602222013130658.30B88FD3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43FD44B0.3010803@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > It might make the most sense in online auctions if ALL bids were snipes. > Simply bid what you're willing to pay for the item and if it's more than > the reserve and higher than any other bid, you've won it by whatever the > bid increment is. That's the way I bid on all of my eBay purchases. When > I place my snipe bid, I say "I'd be willing to pay this much for the item, > after which either I'm not sufficiently interested or I know where I can > purchase the same thing cheaper". There's no stress of seeing if anyone > else has bid more than I. If I want the item badly enough, I'll get it--no > "auction fever". > > There are some categories where sniping seems to be the rule more than > exception and others where the reverse is true. Thank you!! Finally, someone else who thinks the same way I do about online auctions. If everyone just silently bid, and the highest took all, there would be a lot less idiocy on ebay. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 22 23:16:59 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:16:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <003701c63824$6ee928b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> from 'Computer Collector Newsletter' at "Feb 22, 6 09:54:15 pm" Message-ID: <200602230516.VAA19924@floodgap.com> > >>>> due to idiots who bid up auctions needlessly with small increments > > Just because someone is a novice user or and unaware of sniping doesn't make > them an idiot. > > Plenty of normal and educated people who aren't technical like us understand > "auction" to be "you bid this, than I bid that plus a little more, and we go > back and forth until someone stops bidding." > > Your statement is just another example of why we nerds are often considered > rude and socially clueless -- saying things like "you don't know how to do > it, so you must be an idiot." > > Jim, I know you and I know you are not an idiot (plus I'm not a fan of > name-calling), but that * statement * was pretty idiotic. :) In this case, I think the 'idiot' moniker is thoroughly justified. It doesn't require a rocket scientist (or a nerd ;) to realize that people who bid in that manner often pay more than they intended [because they catch auction fever], and that you need to bid what you really, really will pay and you'll be bound to get something at the right price. It is, for lack of a better term, idiocy to think otherwise. A little bit of thought would have sufficed on their part. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail. -- Gore Vidal --------------- From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Feb 22 23:15:46 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:15:46 -0600 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay Message-ID: <30877344570340878ca1069796c22b4f@valleyimplants.com> >Is this why there are some sellers on ebay that are absolutely hostile >to anything paypal? I even had one seller that would only accept >paypal coupled to a bank account, not a credit card (although how they >could tell I don't know). In the second instance, it was probably because (AFAIK) PayPal nicks you a chunk of change per transaction if you accept credit card based payments. First instance is probably because they are reticent about giving a corporation permission to muck about in their bank accounts. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Feb 22 22:46:34 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:46:34 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div" In-Reply-To: <43F58E44.6000209@mindspring.com> References: <200602131800.k1DI04X5091506@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43F1243E.209@update.uu.se> <43F1DB16.9090908@compsys.to> <43F22CE7.7070007@mindspring.com> <43F2C6BF.6010202@mindspring.com> <43F33F1C.5000209@compsys.to> <43F58E44.6000209@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <43FD3E2A.1050106@compsys.to> >Don North wrote: > I added the suggested test case 196607./3. to the DIV test, and here > are the > results from both SIMH and the 11/44. The suggested behavior above > does not > hold true. In both instances for this test case (the second lines) the > result > registers are unchanged, and the V-bit is set. The quotient result is not > the low 16b of the 32b quotient, but is the source register unaltered. > > Here's the result from SIMH: > > local[516] pdp11 divtest.ini > > PDP-11 simulator V3.5-0 > > DIV Test of 'div r2,r0' > > ..R0.. ..R1.. ..R2.. ....NUM... ..DEN.. => ..R0.. ..R1.. ..R2.. NZVC > ..QUO.. ..REM.. > > 000003 000004 000003 196612. 3. => 000003 000004 000003 > 0010 3. 4. > 000002 177777 000003 196607. 3. => 000002 177777 000003 > 0010 2. -1. <--- > 000000 000000 000000 0. 0. => 000000 000000 000000 > 0111 0. 0. > 000001 000001 000000 65537. 0. => 000001 000001 000000 > 0111 1. 1. > 000000 001000 000010 512. 8. => 000100 000000 000010 > 0000 64. 0. > 000000 001234 000021 668. 17. => 000047 000005 000021 > 0000 39. 5. > 000010 001234 005432 524956. 2842. => 000270 003754 005432 > 0000 184. 2028. > 012345 012345 054321 350557413. 22737. => 036071 051134 054321 0000 > 15417. 21084. > 012345 012345 000005 350557413. 5. => 012345 012345 000005 > 0010 5349. 5349. > 000000 040000 000002 16384. 2. => 020000 000000 000002 > 0000 8192. 0. > 000000 100000 000002 32768. 2. => 040000 000000 000002 0000 > 16384. 0. > 000001 000000 000002 65536. 2. => 000001 000000 000002 > 0010 1. 0. > 000002 000000 000002 131072. 2. => 000002 000000 000002 > 0010 2. 0. > > Goodbye > > HALT instruction, PC: 000010 (000012) > Goodbye > local[517] > > and here's the result from a real PDP-11/44: > > >>s 1000 > > (Program) > > DIV Test of 'div r2,r0' > > ..R0.. ..R1.. ..R2.. ....NUM... ..DEN.. => ..R0.. ..R1.. ..R2.. NZVC > ..QUO.. ..REM.. > > 000003 000004 000003 196612. 3. => 000003 000004 000003 > 0010 3. 4. > 000002 177777 000003 196607. 3. => 000002 177777 000003 > 0010 2. -1. <--- > 000000 000000 000000 0. 0. => 000000 000000 000000 > 0011 0. 0. > 000001 000001 000000 65537. 0. => 000001 000001 000000 > 0011 1. 1. > 000000 001000 000010 512. 8. => 000100 000000 000010 > 0000 64. 0. > 000000 001234 000021 668. 17. => 000047 000005 000021 > 0000 39. 5. > 000010 001234 005432 524956. 2842. => 000270 003754 005432 > 0000 184. 2028. > 012345 012345 054321 350557413. 22737. => 036071 051134 054321 0000 > 15417. 21084. > 012345 012345 000005 350557413. 5. => 012345 012345 000005 > 0010 5349. 5349. > 000000 040000 000002 16384. 2. => 020000 000000 000002 > 0000 8192. 0. > 000000 100000 000002 32768. 2. => 040000 000000 000002 0000 > 16384. 0. > 000001 000000 000002 65536. 2. => 100000 000000 000002 0010 > -32768. 0. > 000002 000000 000002 131072. 2. => 000002 000000 000002 > 0010 2. 0. > > Goodbye > > (Console) > Halted at 165146 Jerome Fine replies: I also did similar tests again on the PDP-11/73. Specifically, a KDJ11-AB (M8192-YB) board. I would imagine that all of the J-11 chips are the same. I thought that I had different results the last time, but I did not write them down and my memory was not correct. This time I checked exactly and when the quotient result is supposed to be > 32767., the overflow bit is set and the registers are unchanged. The subroutine that takes advantage of E11's results uses BASE 10000 values to ENCODE a 512 byte variable (32 words of 16 bits). Each of the 32 words has its own entry consisting of up to 40 BASE 10000 values which are easily calculated as required using the values from the entry for the previous word. The code simply does a multiply by 65536 (actually just a word shift) and a divide by 10000. to each value in the entry and carries the overflow up the values. Anyone who wants more details, please ask. For example, the first three entries (a zero specifies the end of the entry) are: 1, 0 = 2**0 5536, 6, 0 = 2**16 7296, 9496, 42, 0 = 2**32 Obviously, no value can be larger than 9999., but even then, an overflow will occur - UNLESS I first subtract 327680000. from the dividend (or 5000. from the high order word). Since I need only 6 extra instructions to handle the problem, it seems worthwhile to do so(* is for an extra instruction): Clr -(SP) ;* Set flag value for no overflow Cmp #4999.,R2 ;* Branch if no overflow will Bhis 10$ ;* occur on the divide ; Sec ;* Carry bit is already set Ror (SP) ;* Set up extra 32768. for quotient Sub #5000.,R2 ;* Remove excess dividend 10$: Div #10000.,R2 ; Perform the divide without overflow Add (SP)+,R2 ;* Increment quotient by 32768. as required Can anyone suggest a better solution? NOTE that the above solution is VERY specific to the values that can be generated in this specific situation. Thank you to Don North and Johnny for your interest! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 22 23:22:49 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:22:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Paypal for the buyer, NOT. was Re: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060222203719.1127386c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at "Feb 22, 6 08:37:19 pm" Message-ID: <200602230522.VAA12924@floodgap.com> > > Seconded. ebay and paypal exist for the buyer, not the seller. I had a > > friend sell something online for $80, then take the money out. 2 weeks > > later the buyer claimed that "his computer was taken over by hackers" > > and denied ever buying the item (which was virtual, ie. no physical > > product to ship or track). paypal tore the $80 out of his account, > > So much for the theory that E-bay only exist for the sellers! > > > which was at 0, which then became -$80 and then immediately -$115 > > because of an overdraft fee. He had to eat it -- he was out the item > > *and* the money. > > This is EXACTLY why I refuse to take payments via PayPal. A lot of > uninformed users insist that they're safe as long as they keep $0 in their > accounts but they're not. I don't know how people get Paypal to do these kinds of things. I bought a package from an eBay seller on the assumption it was a full version (and paid a price consistent with it), and even asked and got a reply -- posted on the auction itself -- that it was, and lo and behold I get an upgrade version in the mail. Naturally, I was pretty torqued, and Paypal said they couldn't help. Eventually I made a few threats and got the money back, but Paypal sure wasn't giving the buyer any love on this one. So I wonder what one has to do to make them behave in that manner when an obvious fraud like this one doesn't kick it back. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but my tarantula is getting neutered." ------- From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 22 23:22:47 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:22:47 -0600 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <200602221806350947.3044A190@10.0.0.252> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0602220416v527f9c01k48143acc8572cea4@mail.gmail.com> <1140613592.26669.6.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> <200602221114400709.2ECB8507@10.0.0.252> <43FCCA8B.9040103@oldskool.org> <200602221344320268.2F54B84E@10.0.0.252> <43FCE19C.8020807@oldskool.org> <200602221806350947.3044A190@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43FD46A7.9000407@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2/22/2006 at 4:11 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > >>> The huge-mode address computation to get from a byte offset to a >>> segment+offset representation is miserable--and a loop that does >> something >>> like a[i] = b[j]+c[k] where all three arrays are larger than 64K is >>> ridiculous. >> Right -- don't do this :-) > > Yeah, but when I saw the hoops one had to jump through on 8086 code for > large structures with the sales engineer sitting there with a straight face > and telling me it was ONLY 7 instructions, I became an instant fan of the > 68000 Well, who wouldn't? :-) I've always maintained that there's nothing wrong with segmented architecture as long as it's done properly. If the segment portion of segment:offset was a 64KB paragraph instead of a 16B paragraph, then you'd have some very nice 16:16 (32-bit) addressing and easy segment math. Oh well, one can dream... Wait -- 7 instructions? Let me look at my flat-to-segmented routine: ; assumes linear address is in dx:ax; returns segmented in dx:ax mov bx,ax and ax,0Fh mov cl,4 shr bx,cl mov cl,12 shl dx,cl add dx,bx ...you're right, 7 instructions, unless my code is bad...? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Feb 22 23:23:36 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:23:36 -0600 Subject: Xenix 286? Message-ID: {The Design of OS/2} by Deitel and Kogan (how do you delineate titles of books when you can't underline or italicize?) seems to indicate that the triple fault switch back to real mode is relying on a "feature" of the 80286, since for the reset method it talks about the hardware involved (keyboard controller on AT, I/O port electonics on PS/2). The book also makes the note that "compared ot the other alternatives, the process [triple faulting] is a slow one" (285). From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 22 23:25:38 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:25:38 -0600 Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS In-Reply-To: <43FCF0B4.4080603@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43FCF0B4.4080603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43FD4752.5090208@oldskool.org> Turbo C is now a free download from Borland: http://bdn.borland.com/museum Jules Richardson wrote: > > What's the state of play regarding DOS C compilers? I might have a need > to do some DOS-based C development work - are there any good-but-free > DOS compilers about? > > I did have Turbo C on tape, but I haven't tried to read those tapes in > years and wouldn't hold out much hope of them still being intact... > > ta > > Jules -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Feb 22 23:51:25 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:51:25 -0600 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <200602222013130658.30B88FD3@10.0.0.252> References: <3.0.6.16.20060222203719.1127386c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <009701c6382d$401d8cc0$6700a8c0@vrs> <200602222013130658.30B88FD3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43FD4D5D.6090706@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > It might make the most sense in online auctions if ALL bids were snipes. > Simply bid what you're willing to pay for the item and if it's more than > the reserve and higher than any other bid, you've won it by whatever the > bid increment is. That's the way I bid on all of my eBay purchases. When > I place my snipe bid, I say "I'd be willing to pay this much for the item, > after which either I'm not sufficiently interested or I know where I can > purchase the same thing cheaper". There's no stress of seeing if anyone > else has bid more than I. If I want the item badly enough, I'll get it--no > "auction fever". I do get auction fever, really badly. Sniping is about the only way I can reliably bid without spending money I don't have. If I make my bid in the last 5 seconds and it's not enough, there's no way I can get in another bid. That's a *good* thing. Oddly enough, I'm a cold fish in realtime auctions. I just don't get excited when I'm bidding in person. Doc From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 23 00:06:12 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 01:06:12 -0500 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <43FD4D5D.6090706@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <004201c6383f$4014adf0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Sniping is how I won a Grid Compass 1101 a few months ago. Someone else had the same bid as me, but mine got in just "in the nick of time." -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doc Shipley Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 12:51 AM To: General at mdrconsult.com; Discussion at mdrconsult.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay Chuck Guzis wrote: > It might make the most sense in online auctions if ALL bids were snipes. > Simply bid what you're willing to pay for the item and if it's more > than the reserve and higher than any other bid, you've won it by > whatever the bid increment is. That's the way I bid on all of my eBay > purchases. When I place my snipe bid, I say "I'd be willing to pay > this much for the item, after which either I'm not sufficiently > interested or I know where I can purchase the same thing cheaper". > There's no stress of seeing if anyone else has bid more than I. If I > want the item badly enough, I'll get it--no "auction fever". I do get auction fever, really badly. Sniping is about the only way I can reliably bid without spending money I don't have. If I make my bid in the last 5 seconds and it's not enough, there's no way I can get in another bid. That's a *good* thing. Oddly enough, I'm a cold fish in realtime auctions. I just don't get excited when I'm bidding in person. Doc From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 23 00:21:25 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 22:21:25 -0800 Subject: Ebay "Funnies" Message-ID: <43FD5465.66F16E62@rain.org> Ok, I'll admit it ... I have a perverted sense of humor :). Some number of years ago, I acquired some Hexadaisy circular calculators and sold them on ebay (IIRC about $20.00 each.) I just did a search for "Hexadaisy" on Google and found someone had taken my original description and picture and put it up on their website. I don't have a problem with this, but I do find it funny! From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Feb 23 00:23:02 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 22:23:02 -0800 Subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel (was: Re: Original 11/74 front panel) In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF269A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF269A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <1140675782.7162.38.camel@linux.site> On Mon, 2006-02-13 at 15:41 +0100, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Without thinking much about it, I'd say that mounting any > real blinkenlight console on a 11/44 is *not* trivial! > Of course, grabbing UNIBUS address- and data-lines and wiring > that to the lights is trivial, but to get all panel functions > (LOAD ADDR, DEP, EXAM, etc). working on an 11/44 is more work. > Not too much. I've got the basics worked out for any Unibus machine. It won't be hard to adapt the approach to Qbus machines as well (but I'm not up on Qbus at the moment). It should give you most (if not all) of the capabilities of a "real" front panel > I guess there are more people on the list who have a boring > PDP-11/44 with a dull panel, that would like to make the /44 > more sexy with an 'appropriate' panel. The "upgrade" is, > of course, done in such a way that it can be undone ... > I (we) do not have a /74 panel :-( , but I'd like to hear > what approach you are thinking of, Don. The approach I'm taking is to add an SPC board and then cables (ribbon) over to switches and lights. Completely undo-able. > > Hmm, you could do it like I did as add-on to SIMH. Hardware > with some intelligence reads the front panel and translates the > switches to messages in ODT syntax which are send to the 11/44 > monitor program ... That sounds like the *really* hard way to do it! -- TTFN - Guy From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Feb 23 00:31:21 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 22:31:21 -0800 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <43FD2006.6080707@msm.umr.edu> <003701c63824$6ee928b0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <43FD56B9.6030508@msm.umr.edu> David Kane wrote: >On 2/23/06, jim stephens wrote: > > >>If you want to buy something, put in a reasonably large bid and take it. >>when >>someone enters a large number $10 bids on an auction that eventually >>closes >>at 150 or so, they are either trying to run up your bill or are in cahouts >>with the >>seller. >> >> > > >So if I see an auction at $10 and put in a speclative $20 (what I am willing >at the outset to bid) and the original reserve put the aution to $21. Then >you consider a few extra increments (I have done 5 extra before) above what >I initially guessed my limit at as poor form and warrenting an "idiot" tag? > >David > > > > If the amount you wish to pay is the maximum you bid after the last bid, why did you not simply put that amount in? deciding your limit is higher 5 times across the auction due to doing research is fine with me. In another reply, I stressed that this was an experienced bidder, and the incrementing was over a small (15 min) period. If you think putting in bids to spend my money (assuming I have the high bid) and not take it is useful, please elaborate. As I said it results in more money for the seller (happy) me getting it and having to pay more than I consider necessary, and you don't win the bid. I bid in two ways. I either put in a minimum for something just in case no one finds it, or I put in a very large amount, sufficient to get the item, and due to the annoyance we are discussing, I do it with as few seconds left as possible in the Ebay sale. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Feb 23 00:46:09 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 22:46:09 -0800 Subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel In-Reply-To: <1140675782.7162.38.camel@linux.site> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF269A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <1140675782.7162.38.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <43FD5A31.6040108@mindspring.com> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On Mon, 2006-02-13 at 15:41 +0100, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > >> Without thinking much about it, I'd say that mounting any >> real blinkenlight console on a 11/44 is *not* trivial! >> Of course, grabbing UNIBUS address- and data-lines and wiring >> that to the lights is trivial, but to get all panel functions >> (LOAD ADDR, DEP, EXAM, etc). working on an 11/44 is more work >> > Not too much. I've got the basics worked out for any Unibus machine. > It won't be hard to adapt the approach to Qbus machines as well (but I'm > not up on Qbus at the moment). It should give you most (if not all) of > the capabilities of a "real" front panel > >> I guess there are more people on the list who have a boring >> PDP-11/44 with a dull panel, that would like to make the /44 >> more sexy with an 'appropriate' panel. The "upgrade" is, >> of course, done in such a way that it can be undone ... >> I (we) do not have a /74 panel :-( , but I'd like to hear >> what approach you are thinking of, Don. >> > The approach I'm taking is to add an SPC board and then cables (ribbon) > over to switches and lights. Completely undo-able. > The only problem with SPC slots is they are 18b UNIBUS only. This will work on 256KB 18b machines, but is a sticky problem on 4MB 22b machines, since you need to go thru the UNIBUS map to get to all of memory. For an 11/44, you could do just a dual slot card that goes in a memory slot (which has 22b address available) and an SPC slot (to get the DMA lines) but this would be a hex card. To read/write memory, you would need to be a 22b DMA device, which I'm not sure the 11/44 can handle (ie, the CPU may always drive the upper 4 address lines and not provide for 22b DMA device). It may work, it may not. Certainly not what DEC designed for. On the other hand, writing a bit of C-code for a PIC processor that handles the console switches and talks to the ASCII console via RS232 is a piece of cake. --Don From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 20 22:47:10 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2006 20:47:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hamfests Message-ID: <20060221044710.28110.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> are these at this point in time still any good for procuring puter gear of a vintage nature? I used to see loads of stuph out on Lawnguylind (when it wadnt all that interesting) at these events. Ham dudes are real packrats. Now it doesnt have to be a whole systen necessarily. Sometimes components - monitors, video cards, whatever - could be just as groovy. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 21 17:54:02 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:54:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old computers in Movies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060221235402.20726.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> what about that bogus movie I saw years ago called "Crash and Burn" I think (giant robots thrashing about). The dame was controlling one of the bots with a Commie 128. Talk about low budget LOL LOL. --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 2/21/06, Keys wrote: > > Did anyone else see the PET and other classic > computers in the Terminator 3 > > movie last night? It was in the underground > bunker shot. > > I didn't see it last night, but I did notice it the > first time I saw the movie. > > -ethan > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From KMD9390 at aol.com Tue Feb 21 23:03:35 2006 From: KMD9390 at aol.com (KMD9390 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 00:03:35 EST Subject: CUBIX VIDEO KEYBOARD AND MOUSE Message-ID: <264.6276a37.312d4aa7@aol.com> I just read an old message about cubix parts you were looking for. Just wanted to let you know that I have a couple of the little silver boxes known as the FT I/O MODULE if anyone is interested.. KENNETH DOLEN _KMD9390 at AOL.COM_ (mailto:KMD9390 at AOL.COM) 1-918-451-7123 1-918-850-1762 BROKEN ARROW, OK. From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Feb 22 12:35:10 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 13:35:10 -0500 Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? In-Reply-To: <200602211813390121.2B24BB0C@10.0.0.252> References: <43FBBF3C.8000505@jetnet.ab.ca> <200602152232.k1FMW9lw000582@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43FBBF3C.8000505@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060222133047.01bf6230@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >On 2/21/2006 at 6:32 PM woodelf wrote: > > >Well if you really are stuck, try here. Too bad the USA has no real do > >it your self stuff any more. > >http://www.rcsradio.com.au/ > >Well, Kepro ceased operation and sold remaining inventory to these folks: > >http://www.dalpro.net/ > >They do offer sensitized PCB stock and chemicals. Warning: Only a satisfied customer: http://www.circuitspecialists.com/level.itml/icOid/218 Circuit Specialists has a lot of presensitized boards, chemicals, and even a few books in stock - they seem very hobby oriented, altho a few of their tools do seem kinda cheap... Their how-to book on making your own boards is pretty good, tho. http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/7783 (link for the book) Now all I need to find is the time to tinker with the shiznit I have... Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Wed Feb 22 13:32:57 2006 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:32:57 -0500 Subject: IBM and RCA mastheads up for auction. In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060204212158.461f2224@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200602221944.k1MJiPhd038513@keith.ezwind.net> I am sure RCA Spectra 70 is not on everyones ebay watch list these days but there is a nice set of RCA Spectra 70 mastheads this week. RCA Spectra Mastheads - item#876897796 The same seller has a set of 2 IBM mastheads a 360 ThirteenStriper and a 138 EightStriper. IBM Mastheads - item# 8768970386 I wish I could afford to make more than a token offering myself. I tried to talk him into splitting them up, but he does not want to deal with that much shipping. The seller is a nice old guy, I have been communicating with him on and off for the last year or so. I got my little short 360 block logo masthead example from him when he split up the IBM collection last year. I am not sure if this will make the cc-talk mail list or not, If not I have Bcc this it to several people directly, If you see it twice sorry ... If it does not make the list, it was not because I did not try :) I wish Lew luck in these auctions. Bob Bradlee http://www.IBMcollectables.com From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Feb 22 17:37:10 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:37:10 -0500 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <200602221512420775.2FA57259@10.0.0.252> References: <43FCE9E0.5020903@oldskool.org> <43FCE81B.8010700@mdrconsult.com> <43FCE9E0.5020903@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060222183315.050152f0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >On 2/22/2006 at 4:46 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > > >Thunderbird will display the URL of any link you hover over in an > >email... so the email will say "www.ebay.com" and the actual displayed > >link during the hover is "201.22.98.34/incoming/.ebay.com". I've never > >been phished. > >The trickier links exploit the more oddball features of browser addresses. > Some older versions of IE, for example will swallow things like >http://www.ebay.com at 1113982819/ (which actually references google). >Sufficiently obscure to fool the casual user. Which, when clicked on in Eudora, and opened in Firefox, I get this nice little confirmation window, with the title of "Confirm" and the text: You are about to log into the site "1113982819" with the username "www%2Eebay%2Ecom," but the web site does not require authentication. This may be an attempt to trick you. Is "1113982819" the site you want to visit? Oh, and I've never been phished either, but I have looked at a few websites just to see how good/bad the "translation" was and a few I've seen were pretty pitiful... If I were a bastard, I'd say that anyone that got phished with some of those really bad websites deserve what they get... but I'm not, am I??? ;-P Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 22 19:26:07 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:26:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060223012607.3984.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> I realize that I'm talking about something much later in time, but didn't Windows 95 engage in "thunking", meaning, IIUC, to revert to 16 bit code (i.e. non-protected mode stuph)? So therefore, at least newer Pentium series uPs, had the ability to switch in and out of protectd mode. M$ had us believing that Chicago was rewritten from the ground up (I think they said that in the beginning), and didn't rely on 16-bit code whatsoever. > > Yup. Because once in protected mode on the 286, > you can't get out unless > > you reset the CPU. > > > > -spc (I think you could get out by tripple > faulting ... ) > > Could you, in general. I think you can on the PC/AT, > but I seem to recall > a circuit that detects the odd state of the bus > status lines if you get a > triple fault, and then resets the CPU, or toggles a > pin on the keyboard > controller, or... > > -tony > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 22 19:30:45 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:30:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS In-Reply-To: <20060222172042.U96704@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20060223013045.34720.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> at the risk of sounding like a collaborator, lots of developers like Quick C. I do believe I have it somewhere too, but don't count on me finding anytime soon... Quick Basic is rather fun too *ducks*. --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 22 Feb 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > > What's the state of play regarding DOS C > compilers? I might have a need to do > > some DOS-based C development work - are there any > good-but-free DOS compilers > > about? > > > > I did have Turbo C on tape, but I haven't tried to > read those tapes in years > > and wouldn't hold out much hope of them still > being intact... > > Take a look at: > http://www.faqs.org/faqs/msdos-programmer-faq/part5/section-10.html > I understand that Dave Dunfield helped put that list > together. > > PCC (aka DeSmet C) is a good simple command line > compiler. > It's excellent for learning on, but has some issues > with large programs. > > TurboC 2.x is an easy to use IDE. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 23 00:06:25 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 22:06:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Older Monitors Message-ID: <20060223060625.88141.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> many 16 inch and larger monitors from that era were oem-ed by Sony. I used to find them at TCF for as little as $10 in the mid 90s. The one favorite of mine was the GDM-1932 IIRC, which was Sonys house number, but had an IBM monniker. I never had an issue with them. Not as radiation compliant and certainly more power hungry then a newer model, but the thing had a date code of 1988! Havent pulled them out in a while but I still have 2. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > A thread was started on a forum I frequent about people matching up monitors > with the equipment they collect. I have a few Commodore monitors with my > Amigas, the correct Apple monitor for my IIgs and Atari monitor for my > 1040STF but I could never find a decent working larger monitor for my > vintage 68K Macs. The question I have is do the 19"+ Supermac/Radius type > monitors have such a bad design that they lasted only a few years? How do > early 1990's monitors of that size compare to the monitors that came before > and after them? Also larger older monitors seem to use up quite a bit more > electricity and generate quite a bit of heat (maybe thats why they didn't > last), do you guys have issue with older monitors? > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From specklesdad at twcny.rr.com Tue Feb 21 20:45:14 2006 From: specklesdad at twcny.rr.com (oui oui) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 21:45:14 -0500 Subject: New find & HP-UX p/w? was: Re: RGB-to-VGA adapter Message-ID: <000501c6375a$03950540$020aa8c0@home3d9459903d> I have a zeneth monitor model #cv2562 with a 15pin RGB female fitting, And I am looking to hook it to my computer. I am trying to locate a cable, 15pin RGB male to 15pin RGB male. or A 15pin RGB male to standard computer hook-up. All the info I can find tells me I need a RGB to VGA but when I look at the picture it does not look right. can you help me out. Thank You James Nickal specklesdad at twcny.rr.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Feb 23 01:45:36 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 02:45:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602230747.CAA01186@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > {The Design of OS/2} by Deitel and Kogan (how do you delineate titles > of books when you can't underline or italicize?) The most common way in my experience is to `quote' with underscores, which would make that _The Design of OS/2_ by Deitel and Kogan .... But then, in my experience, 469-character lines are considered a bad idea, too, so make up your own mind.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 23 01:54:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2006 23:54:46 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <43FD46A7.9000407@oldskool.org> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0602220416v527f9c01k48143acc8572cea4@mail.gmail.com> <1140613592.26669.6.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> <200602221114400709.2ECB8507@10.0.0.252> <43FCCA8B.9040103@oldskool.org> <200602221344320268.2F54B84E@10.0.0.252> <43FCE19C.8020807@oldskool.org> <200602221806350947.3044A190@10.0.0.252> <43FD46A7.9000407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200602222354460422.318362D8@10.0.0.252> I don't know if anyone remembers the speculation about the architecture of Intel's first 16 bit PC back in the late 70's. We had some teasers from Intel like "bigger addressing space" and "16 bit registers" and "backward compatible with 8080 code". My guess was that Intel would simply double the register sizes. Let's see a->ax, check, b->bx, check, c->cx, check, d->dx, check, e->ex, h->hx, l->lx (huh?). Well, okay, we did get SI and DI (but the Z80 has IX and IY as 16 bit regs, so no big deal). My other thought was that registers would get paired up to form 32 bit address pointers (like hl, de, and bc). Nope, we got the funny segment registers. I was pretty happy about the improved register orthogonality (e.g. add dx,bx), but the 8086 overall was a big letdown. When the 68K was announced, my reaction was "Now that's the way it should be done". I liked the NS 32016 even better. The Z8000 left me pretty unimpressed, but less so than the 8086. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 23 02:08:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 00:08:43 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <20060223012607.3984.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060223012607.3984.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200602230008430088.319026F1@10.0.0.252> On 2/22/2006 at 5:26 PM Chris M wrote: >I realize that I'm talking about something much later >in time, but didn't Windows 95 engage in "thunking", >meaning, IIUC, to revert to 16 bit code (i.e. >non-protected mode stuph)? So therefore, at least >newer Pentium series uPs, had the ability to switch in >and out of protectd mode. M$ had us believing that >Chicago was rewritten from the ground up (I think they >said that in the beginning), and didn't rely on 16-bit >code whatsoever. Well, now wait just a second. "Thunking" usually refers to calling a 32-bit DLL from 16-bit code or vice versa. But both are usually in protected mode. And, while it's true that Win95 used a lot of the guts of DOS and BIOS functions, there wasn't any need in the 386 architecture to switch to real mode. Did MS ever claim that Chicago was written from the ground up? I didn't think they did--they did integrate the Win32S DLL into the new platform and added support for long file names. For a quick and dirty solution to attempt to bridge the gap between NT and Windows 3.x, it wasn't too bad. I still keep a copy of Win98 running on a system or two around here. Windows 3.x had a lot of really limiting stuff in it. Such as the way VxDs were called via the mux interrupt. If you wrote a VxD back in the Win 3.1 days, you had to apply to MS for a VxD number if you ever hoped to deploy the thing--and you couldn't dynamically load and unload them. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 23 02:17:10 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 00:17:10 -0800 Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602230017100198.3197E3C3@10.0.0.252> On 2/23/2006 at 12:04 AM Gary Sparkes wrote: >How about anything that'd fit on an atari portfolio, in 64kb ram card?:) How about the Small-C interpreter? Should fit in 64K just fine: http://www.cpm.z80.de/small_c/smc88dos.zip Cheers, Chuck From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Feb 23 02:39:19 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:39:19 GMT Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <200602230012.QAA18990@floodgap.com> References: <200602230012.QAA18990@floodgap.com> Message-ID: In message <200602230012.QAA18990 at floodgap.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Elm shows HTML as plain text so that all secrets are revealed. :) I just > delete HTML only mail. Same goes for Messenger Pro. Spamassassin is pretty good at picking up phishing scams and marking them as such, and Thunderbird (which I use while I'm on the road) is pretty good at picking up the rest. As a general rule, if it says "Dear Customer" or "Dear Paypal Customer" or something like that, I ignore it. If they actually mention my name, I will visit the site, but I'll do it by entering the address directly into a browser. Just for an extra dose of paranoia, I usually check the SSL certificates too... -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G ... If we left the bones out it wouldn't be crunchy. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Feb 23 02:45:18 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:45:18 GMT Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <43FCF43C.2050802@mdrconsult.com> References: <43FCE81B.8010700@mdrconsult.com> <43FCF43C.2050802@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: In message <43FCF43C.2050802 at mdrconsult.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > From: aw-confirm at ebay.com > Reply-To: aw-confirm at ebay.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Cue 200 decibel alarm bell... > Your registered name is included to show this message originated from > eBay. Learn more Scam. Where's the registered name then? > ) Scam URL. > View item description: > htps://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6436472319&sspagename=ADME:B:AAQ:UK:1 Can't they even spell 'http' right? Nicely done, but not nice enough... -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G ... He's dead, Jim ... Kick him of you don't believe me From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 03:07:15 2006 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 17:07:15 +0800 Subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel In-Reply-To: <43FD5A31.6040108@mindspring.com> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CF269A@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> <1140675782.7162.38.camel@linux.site> <43FD5A31.6040108@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On 2/23/06, Don North wrote: > Guy Sotomayor wrote: > For an 11/44, you could do just a dual slot card that goes in a memory > slot (which has 22b address available) and an SPC slot (to get the DMA > lines) but this would be a hex card. To read/write memory, you would > need to be a 22b DMA device, which I'm not sure the 11/44 can handle > (ie, the CPU may always drive the upper 4 address lines and not provide > for 22b DMA device). It may work, it may not. Certainly not what DEC > designed for. This is what I term the "Computer Scientist's" solution. > > On the other hand, writing a bit of C-code for a PIC processor that > handles the console switches and talks to the ASCII console via RS232 is > a piece of cake. > This OTOH is an "Engineer's" solution. Conclude what you like. :-) From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Feb 23 04:45:58 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 05:45:58 -0500 Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS In-Reply-To: <200602230017100198.3197E3C3@10.0.0.252> References: Message-ID: <20060223104612.FTLK14361.berlinr.sprint.ca@dunfield.com> > >How about anything that'd fit on an atari portfolio, in 64kb ram card?:) > > How about the Small-C interpreter? Should fit in 64K just fine: I didn't see/respond to the original message as I was unsubbed during a mail snafu... I would urge you to take a look at the PC version of my Micro-C compiler: http://www.dunfield.com/ftp/products/mcpc.exe It supports much more of the C language, is 1/2 the size, faster and produces *WAY* better code than Small-C. (and no - it's not based on or derived from Small-C). [Don't get put-off by the fact that it's a "for sale" product - the PC demo version is fully functional and not time-limited etc. - the retail version gets you a bunch of extras (which you wouldn't have room for on a portfolio anyway).] Getting any of these tools to run on a Portfolio will be a challenge however. The Portfolio has 128k of internal RAM - with DOS in ROM, most of this is available as application storage, however some is set aside for a "ramdisk". IIRC the minimum you can set this to is 8k. With your 64k card, you therefore have somewhere around 110k of usable RAM and 64k+8k of storage. CC86 (Small-C) is about 45k in disk usage, and I assume somewhere between 64k and 128k in-RAM usage. Micro-C has various components, however the actual compiler (the only part you really need) is about 25k in disk space, and about 90k in-RAM usage. I could build this smaller with reduced symbol capacity if you needed. Both Micro-C/PC and Small-C need an assembler. Small-C uses MASM which is 85k in code size and (more) in RAM requirements, so I think this alone will probably be a "show stopper". Micro-C/PC supports several assemblers, the smallest of which is probably A86. A86 uses about 35k of disk space, but I have not tested it to see how much runtime it requires. IIRC A86 can also create a .COM file directly. There are other versions of Small-C which use Hendrixes "Small assembler", which is no doubt smaller than MASM, and may allow it to be used. You could use an executable compressor (as long as it supports the 8088) such as UPX, PKLITE etc. to reduce the disk space requirements, however you may run into RAM space problems during decompressions. On top of the requirements listed above, you need to consider temporary files - both Micro-C and Small-C work by compiling C source code to assembly code, which is stored in a temp file - for all but the simplest of programs, this can get quite large. I'm sure with a bit of tweaking, you could get either one to work within the limits of the Portfolio ... but it would be quite limited and you wouldn't have a lot left over. If I wanted to put some work into it, I could build a custom/limited version of Micro-C using my own ASM86 assembler (normally used in my embedded toolset) and get all the modules to run in 64k. Not sure I want to do that - but it is possible. Regards, Dave PS: For an idea of how capable Micro-C is, note that almost all of my software Including the much-debated ImageDisk, my other transfer utilities, my simulators and nearly all of my commercial DOS based tools are written in Micro-C/PC. -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ragooman at comcast.net Thu Feb 23 06:35:59 2006 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 07:35:59 -0500 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <200602230516.VAA19924@floodgap.com> References: <200602230516.VAA19924@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <43FDAC2F.30808@comcast.net> Lurker here, Just keep in mind that as with any other business(and auctions) there's always a shill to artificially inflate the bidding for an auction. eBay is notorious for this as they have absolutely no precautions(nor security) against this. I know because I've found how this done very easily, anyone who has access to internet can do this. The seller can easily just as well have numerous eBay screenames/accounts and bid against his own auction to drive up the price(and act as his own shill). So what looks like an act of stupidity is easily just a ploy by the shill to aggravate you into bidding more for his/their product. eBay has no type of screening whatsoever to prevent this type of thievery. Just be forewarned. =Dan .~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~. [My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] [Pittsburgh Robotics Society Got Robot? http://www.pghrobotics.org/ ] [Pittsburgh Vintage Comp.Society http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/ ] .~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~. Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >In this case, I think the 'idiot' moniker is thoroughly justified. It doesn't >require a rocket scientist (or a nerd ;) to realize that people who bid in >that manner often pay more than they intended [because they catch auction >fever], and that you need to bid what you really, really will pay and you'll >be bound to get something at the right price. > >It is, for lack of a better term, idiocy to think otherwise. A little bit >of thought would have sufficed on their part. > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.0.0/267 - Release Date: 2/22/2006 From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Feb 23 07:44:57 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:44:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <43FDAC2F.30808@comcast.net> Message-ID: > Just keep in mind that as with any other business(and auctions) there's > always a shill to artificially inflate the bidding for an auction. eBay > is notorious for this as they have absolutely no precautions(nor > security) against this. Nor do real auctions have precautions. In fact, if the auctioneer is a scum, he can shill himself, pulling bids out of the air. At least Ebay can not do that (we think!). Ebay has at least some sort of papertrail for the bidding. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Feb 23 07:50:42 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:50:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <200602230516.VAA19924@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > In this case, I think the 'idiot' moniker is thoroughly justified. It doesn't > require a rocket scientist (or a nerd ;) to realize that people who bid in > that manner often pay more than they intended [because they catch auction > fever], and that you need to bid what you really, really will pay and you'll > be bound to get something at the right price. > > It is, for lack of a better term, idiocy to think otherwise. A little bit > of thought would have sufficed on their part. On the flip side, and going back to what Mr. Newsletter says, it does not take a rocket scientist to do things like cook an egg, do simple tax returns, appreciate some fine art, or even date a girl/boy - but computer nerds tend to crash and burn on any and all of these tasks. We are idiots, just in a different light. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From billdeg at degnanco.com Thu Feb 23 07:51:42 2006 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:51:42 -0500 Subject: WTD: Card separators/risers Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20060223084934.027a0bc8@mail.degnanco.net> Hi - I searched for card separators on Digikey, Code Micro, or Jameco (some people call them "risers.") - no specific luck. I have emailed them for assistance. In the mean time... As I wrote before I am trying to install a small computer board on top of a computer motherboard, so that the smaller board is about 9/16" separated from the motherboard. There is not much clearance and I want to just make it a few hairs above the IC's on the motherboard or I can't close the lid of the computer. There are holes in both boards that line up for the risers (the small board is made to be attached to the motherboard with risers). My local Radio Shack's card separators/risers are either too short or too tall. The card separators/risers have screw holes on either end so that you can fasten them to the boards. Does anyone in this group have four 9/16" risers that they'd like to sell or trade me? I actually found two in my supplies, but I need four of the same height. If anyone would like a picture to get a better idea of what I need, let me know via private email. Bill Degnan From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 08:11:25 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:11:25 +0000 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060222205209.11279c4c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <43FCE97A.10303@oldskool.org> <26c11a640602221701q7be0efe4m@mail.gmail.com> <3.0.6.16.20060222205209.11279c4c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640602230611q52a8ccb9o@mail.gmail.com> > > I hate to say it but they were right and you were wrong. You should have > made sure of the payment details BEFORE you bid. I look at the payment > method/details, hidden and/or excessive charges and any other unreasonable > terms on EVERY auction BEFORE I bid on them. I frequently don't bid on > items because of unreasonable terms, excesssive handling charges and the like. > > I suspect sellers require verified accounts because credit cards are > EASY to come by. There's seldom a day that goes by that I don't get an > offer for a credit card and many of them don't require any application. > Credit card numbers are also easily hijacked. They recently arrested > several people that worked at a major hotel here in the Orlando area. They > had copied the CC numbers from something like 6000 customers! > > Joe > > > > >Dan > > > > > No wrong way around I have a verified account they didn't so they could not accept credit card payments. Their auction said they accepted paypal. I paid with paypal and it was rejected. There was nothing on the auction that suggested otherwise. Dan From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 23 08:49:37 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:49:37 -0600 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <43FDAC2F.30808@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060223084648.088d6dd0@mail> At 07:44 AM 2/23/2006, William Donzelli wrote: >Nor do real auctions have precautions. In fact, if the auctioneer is a >scum, he can shill himself, pulling bids out of the air. I know I've accidentally bid against myself in a real-life auction. :-) >At least Ebay can >not do that (we think!). Ebay has at least some sort of papertrail for the >bidding. As much as I'd like to think that eBay could somehow protect us against shills, I can't think of a way you could enforce it and still prevent the motivated shiller from doing his dirty work. All it takes is collusion and cohorts. eBay's only risk is that a shill bid wins the auction - and they win in that case with one form of listing fee or another. - John From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Feb 23 08:59:47 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:59:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060223084648.088d6dd0@mail> Message-ID: > I know I've accidentally bid against myself in a real-life auction. :-) An ethical auctioneer will NOT allow a bidder to bid against hinmself. Most will simply say something like "you are already the high bid". > As much as I'd like to think that eBay could somehow protect > us against shills, I can't think of a way you could enforce > it and still prevent the motivated shiller from doing his > dirty work. All it takes is collusion and cohorts. eBay's > only risk is that a shill bid wins the auction - and they win > in that case with one form of listing fee or another. The problem has existed since the beginning of time. One can not rightly blame Ebay for it. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From lproven at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 09:06:42 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 15:06:42 +0000 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0602230706x4a0f1f7ey68042e1968895e4c@mail.gmail.com> On 2/23/06, compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > (how do you delineate titles of books when you can't underline or italicize?) The convention for the 20-odd years I've been doing online discussions is this: Underscores mean _underlined_ text. Forward slashes mean /italicized/ text. Asterisks mean *bold* text. If you use (for example) the Mozilla Thunderbird email client, it displays text marked this way in bold, underline or italics, as appropriate. So does the Ameol reader for the British CIX online service. -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From lproven at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 09:09:45 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 15:09:45 +0000 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <1140613592.26669.6.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0602220416v527f9c01k48143acc8572cea4@mail.gmail.com> <1140613592.26669.6.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <575131af0602230709i2178434ta0beb432d4c7d835@mail.gmail.com> On 2/22/06, Brian Wheeler wrote: > On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 12:16 +0000, Liam Proven wrote: > > I must point out that I did carefully use the word "swap" not "page"! > > But I confess I'm not 100% clear on the difference. Does anyone know > > of a good online reference to explain it? Moderately technical is fine > > - I am a techie with a reasonable understanding of OS design, but I am > > not a programmer, or at least, not in C. > Swap is technically putting a segment (data or code) as one unit to the > disk. > > paging is like swapping except using smaller-than-segment chunks (i.e. > pages). In a paging system, each segment consists of a bunch of > fixed-size pages and each one of those pages can be put on disk (or > brought back) individually. When the OS tries to read from one of the > missing pages, an exception is raised and the memory is loaded from > disk. Er. Thankyou. The snag is, that explanation does rather depend on understanding the difference between segments and pages. I am young enough that I have really only ever dealt with machines with flat 32-bit memory spaces - I saw a few 286s in my 1st year ot 2 in work, but back then, I understood nothing about such arcana. So. What is a segment, what is a page, and what is the difference? I know that pre-386 Intel x86 chips used a 64k segment size and that this caused problems, but little more than that. -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 23 09:06:04 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:06:04 -0600 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <009701c6382d$401d8cc0$6700a8c0@vrs> References: <3.0.6.16.20060222203719.1127386c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <009701c6382d$401d8cc0$6700a8c0@vrs> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060223090037.0598c3a0@mail> At 09:57 PM 2/22/2006, vrs wrote: >> >Seconded. ebay and paypal exist for the buyer, not the seller. I had a >> >friend sell something online for $80, then take the money out. 2 weeks >> >later the buyer claimed that "his computer was taken over by hackers" >> >and denied ever buying the item (which was virtual, ie. no physical >> >product to ship or track). paypal tore the $80 out of his account, Welcome to credit card processing. It favors the customer not the seller. It doesn't get any better in real life. If your business accepts credit cards, you can bet that you'll be on the hook if the transaction is called into question for any reason. >PayPal has a different revenue model, and a different set of biases. >They also have to deal with restrictions imposed by credit card >transactions. As a result, PayPal is much more biased toward the >buyer. I don't know how you can have an auction process for relatively low-cost goods while keeping transaction costs low AND incorporating some kind of dispute resolution or escrow service. Good, fast, cheap; pick any two. It's even true of any mail order business: Customer says they opened the box and it was full of packing peanuts and a chunk of wood, not their computer part. What happens? - John From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Feb 23 09:08:25 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:08:25 -0500 Subject: Squeal on Older Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <43FD2637.17B85582@rain.org> References: <43FD2637.17B85582@rain.org> Message-ID: <200602231008.25585.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 22 February 2006 10:04 pm, Marvin Johnston wrote: > Interesting FYI ... Like anyone who has been around the early days of > micro HDs, I have heard HDs make an attention getting squeal. After a > while, we knew/found out that it was caused by the grounding spring on > the bottom of the drive, and bend it out of the way. In glancing through > some old Compaq Service Bulletins, I saw IN PRINT that the fix was to > remove the grounding strap with the comment that the drive is adequately > grounded though other contact points. I've been doing that since, oh, 1985 or thereabouts. Uneven wear on the graphite button on the grounding strap is usually the cause of the noise... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From lproven at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 09:22:55 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 15:22:55 +0000 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <20060223012607.3984.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060223012607.3984.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <575131af0602230722p7d7f8db3gd8cb970326a1c802@mail.gmail.com> On 2/23/06, Chris M wrote: > I realize that I'm talking about something much later > in time, but didn't Windows 95 engage in "thunking", > meaning, IIUC, to revert to 16 bit code (i.e. > non-protected mode stuph)? Not quite. On an OS that runs a mixture of code designed for different word lengths - e.g., mixed 16- & 32-bit, or mixed 64- and 32-bit - "thunking" is making API calls from one address space to the other. So, for example, running 32-bit Internet apps on Win9x called the 16-bit networking layer, requiring a thunk from Win32 address space into Win16. Similarly, running 16-bit apps on NT required thunks from 16-bit address space into 32-bit, so that the 16-bit apps could call 32-but DLLs. The same applies with running 32-bit Windows code on 64-bit versions of XP or W2K3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunking http://foldoc.org/foldoc.cgi?query=thunk&action=Search > So therefore, at least > newer Pentium series uPs, had the ability to switch in > and out of protectd mode. Something different. The 80286 ran in "protect mode" or "real mode", but only provided an opcode to switch from real to protected, not back again. This is the problem discussed elsewhere in this thread - horrible kludges were required to get back into real mode again, causing major problems for OSs trying to run real-mode code in protect mode. I.e., OS/2 1.x. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_mode http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_mode > M$ had us believing that > Chicago was rewritten from the ground up (I think they > said that in the beginning), and didn't rely on 16-bit > code whatsoever. No, not so. Chicago was "Windows 4.0" for a long time. It's NT that was the ground-up rewrite, albeit based on the codebase of OS/2 3, the portable version of OS/2, as made to work by Dave Cutler & his team hired in from DEC, which explains the internal resemblances to VMS. -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Feb 23 09:18:41 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:18:41 -0500 Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS In-Reply-To: References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D1855701271D37@cpexchange.olf.com> <015501c63835$299fd2c0$72781941@game> Message-ID: <200602231018.41076.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Wednesday 22 February 2006 11:57 pm, 9000 VAX wrote: > On 2/22/06, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 11:49 PM > > Subject: RE: C Compilers for (MS)DOS > > > > > Watcom C is available which is pretty good. You can also get GCC for > > > DOS as well... > > > > Wasn't the old full Borland C++ package pretty much the standard (and > > most supported for DOS) back in those days? I still see the Borland > > packages commanding some money on ebay while the cheaper Turbo C from the > > same company is not in that much of a demand > > because you can download turbo C 2.01 from borland.com. I've seen TC 2.5 for download somewhere, though I can't recall where at the moment... And MSC 6. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Feb 23 09:21:06 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:21:06 -0500 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <30877344570340878ca1069796c22b4f@valleyimplants.com> References: <30877344570340878ca1069796c22b4f@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200602231021.06146.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Thursday 23 February 2006 12:15 am, compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > >Is this why there are some sellers on ebay that are absolutely hostile > > > >to anything paypal? I even had one seller that would only accept > >paypal coupled to a bank account, not a credit card (although how they > >could tell I don't know). > > In the second instance, it was probably because (AFAIK) PayPal nicks you a > chunk of change per transaction if you accept credit card based payments. > First instance is probably because they are reticent about giving a > corporation permission to muck about in their bank accounts. This is why, when my brother changed banks a while back, he kept the "old" account with a minimal amount of funds in it, for use with paypal. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 23 09:15:48 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:15:48 -0600 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20060223084648.088d6dd0@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060223091136.052f9548@mail> At 08:59 AM 2/23/2006, William Donzelli wrote: >> I know I've accidentally bid against myself in a real-life auction. :-) > >An ethical auctioneer will NOT allow a bidder to bid against >hinmself. Most will simply say something like "you are already the high >bid". Yes, whenever I've done it (generally at rural farm auctions - never been to an auctioneer-based tech auction) the auctioneer generally makes good humor of it and all the farmers laugh. Sort of like the way they laugh about the way I drove the Volvo out into the field to jump-start the tractor. - John From lproven at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 09:27:18 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 15:27:18 +0000 Subject: VAXstations in London In-Reply-To: <513fecc1c9e0497db2d4f28562d54b58@valleyimplants.com> References: <513fecc1c9e0497db2d4f28562d54b58@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <575131af0602230727h50db08efh26cc159111d27144@mail.gmail.com> On 2/22/06, compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > >I would be most interested in one, but it's over a decade since I last > >even /saw/ a VAXstation. I've no idea how to choose the most powerful > >out of that lot! > > It depends what you want to run on them, too. Oh, VMS! What else? :?) > The /76 won't run Ultrix, and mine is a bit flakey with NetBSD (haven't managed to get it completely installed with either 2.0 or 3.0 without crashes and weirdness). VMS runs great, though. (I have v7.2 on mine, the only problem with the hobbyist distro is that the 5.0 UCX on the Hobbyist V2 CD doesn't properly do Telnet. Don't know how well 7.3 works on VS3100 with 16 MB). Argh. I have hobbyist CDs but not sure what version - something pretty recent, though. There's not even any point *asking* if they'd take SIMMs or any civilised form of RAM, is there? > The /76 also is the smaller case (like the /30). The plus with a Unix is that you can use > 1 GB disks with a < 1GB root partition O.K. I have a 2 GB drive running VMS with crossed fingers, supposedly there is a way to turn off crash dumps but I haven't found it yet. > The VS3100 has a DA15M connector for video that looks a bit like a ERGO but is not, you'll need an adaptor at least. Base 3100/76 video is B&W unless you have the SPX option. You also need a LKA-type keyboard and VX-type mouse. SW3 can be flipped to put the console on the printer port, though. Remember it has the bizarre SCSI connector on the back (SUN SL-CD/XM-4101 drives work for install, though, and are easy to move around). > > Nice little boxes, though. All those caveats aside, you mean? 8?/ -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Thu Feb 23 09:39:33 2006 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:39:33 -0600 Subject: Japan bans old electronics Message-ID: This was reported on the HPLX mailing list: from http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/22/japan-bans-old-electronics-as-of-april-1/ It seems that Japan's government revised its "Electrical Appliance and Material Safety Law" back in April 2001, and added a stipulation that items authorized under the country's old law (the "Electrical Appliance and Material Control Law") couldn't be sold anymore, but granted those products a five-year grace period. Well, if you check your convenient wall calendar, you'll see that the five-year period is about to end, which means that as of April 1, pretty much any electronic gear sold before April 1, 2001 can't be legally resold in Japan. There are some loopholes mentioned. Bob From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Feb 23 09:49:00 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 07:49:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Japan bans old electronics In-Reply-To: from Robert Feldman at "Feb 23, 6 09:39:33 am" Message-ID: <200602231549.HAA09648@floodgap.com> > http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/22/japan-bans-old-electronics-as-of-april-1/ Hysteria. Here's a more measured piece (with references, too). http://www.mutantfrog.com/2006/02/22/2nd-hand-electronics-sales-will-not-soon-be-illegal-in-japan/ ... in fact, I checked the engadget site and they're linking mutantfrog also, so it seems they're up to date also. In fact, this is actually a *good* thing for foreign collectors because what's really going on is that the equipment will need certification ... except if it's bound for export. In that case, many smaller used dealers will probably just try to sell it on eBay or some other foreign trade channel because it will be cheaper for them than keeping it domestically and having to have certification as a service centre. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never trust a computer you can't lift. -- Mac rollout, 24 January 1984 ----- From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 23 09:55:26 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:55:26 -0500 Subject: Japan bans old electronics In-Reply-To: <200602231549.HAA09648@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <000001c63891$90d57740$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Also, I get the impression this only applies to dealers, not individuals (or at least it's unenforceable to individuals.) That's a HUGE leap from "Japan bans old electronics" but leave it to Internet crazies to panic and oversimplify... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 10:49 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Japan bans old electronics > http://www.engadget.com/2006/02/22/japan-bans-old-electronics-as-of-ap > ril-1/ Hysteria. Here's a more measured piece (with references, too). http://www.mutantfrog.com/2006/02/22/2nd-hand-electronics-sales-will-not-soo n-be-illegal-in-japan/ ... in fact, I checked the engadget site and they're linking mutantfrog also, so it seems they're up to date also. In fact, this is actually a *good* thing for foreign collectors because what's really going on is that the equipment will need certification ... except if it's bound for export. In that case, many smaller used dealers will probably just try to sell it on eBay or some other foreign trade channel because it will be cheaper for them than keeping it domestically and having to have certification as a service centre. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never trust a computer you can't lift. -- Mac rollout, 24 January 1984 ----- From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 23 09:55:13 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:55:13 -0600 Subject: Japan bans old electronics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20060223095356.058cacf8@mail> At 09:39 AM 2/23/2006, Robert Feldman wrote: >It seems that Japan's government revised its "Electrical Appliance and Material Safety Law" back in April 2001, and added a stipulation that items authorized under the country's old law (the "Electrical Appliance and Material Control Law") couldn't be sold anymore, but granted those products a five-year grace period. Not quite. See: http://www.mutantfrog.com/2006/02/22/2nd-hand-electronics-sales-will-not-soon-be-illegal-in-japan/ - John From marvin at rain.org Thu Feb 23 10:32:04 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:32:04 -0800 Subject: WTD: Card separators/risers Message-ID: <43FDE384.5D1CFC8E@rain.org> One thing that I've seen used for separating cards are wire-wrap pins. For what you are doing, it sounds like they would work quite well ... assuming you can solder them in place. If not, what about plastic or aluminum standoffs available at most any electronics supply place? > Does anyone in this group have four 9/16" risers that they'd like to sell > or trade me? I actually found two in my supplies, but I need four of the > same height. If anyone would like a picture to get a better idea of what I > need, let me know via private email. > > Bill Degnan > From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 23 12:52:02 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:52:02 -0700 Subject: "my books" web site? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 23 Feb 2006 00:56:42 +0000. <26c11a640602221656y52c659f6y@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <26c11a640602221656y52c659f6y at mail.gmail.com>, "Dan Williams" writes: > There is a crude way that might backfire on you. Set up a wishlist on > Amazon you can search by isbn or whatever you like. Just make sure > people know not to buy them for you. Yeah, that's actually what I've been doing as an experiment. Since noone's ever bought anything for me from my wishlist on amazon, I doubt that it would be a problem :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Feb 23 12:55:36 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:55:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay Message-ID: <200602231855.KAA31244@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Dan" > >Lurker here, > >Just keep in mind that as with any other business(and auctions) there's >always a shill to artificially inflate the bidding for an auction. eBay >is notorious for this as they have absolutely no precautions(nor >security) against this. I know because I've found how this done very >easily, anyone who has access to internet can do this. The seller can >easily just as well have numerous eBay screenames/accounts and bid >against his own auction to drive up the price(and act as his own shill). >So what looks like an act of stupidity is easily just a ploy by the >shill to aggravate you into bidding more for his/their product. eBay has >no type of screening whatsoever to prevent this type of thievery. Just >be forewarned. > >=Dan > > ---snip--- Hi Most shill's can be noticed by looking at the buyers records. If they have a lot of buying from the same seller, it is a good chance that they are a shill. Also a quick check of the sellers feedback will often find several shill names. Ebay doesn't seem to do much more than warn the seller when they are notified. This is even when it is obvious shilling. Dwight From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 23 12:56:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:56:30 -0700 Subject: "my books" web site? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:12:59 -0500. <010f01c6381e$ab9dd5e0$72781941@game> Message-ID: In article <010f01c6381e$ab9dd5e0$72781941 at game>, "Teo Zenios" writes: > Its not that expensive $39.95. The wrong tool for the job, even if free, is still the wrong tool though. I don't want to maintain my own database on my own machine, back it up, etc. I just want a web site where I can sign in, browse to an item and click to say "yeah, add that to my list". It doesn't look like such things exist yet. Instead, I have to become a librarian and start managing my own book database. That is more trouble than its worth at this point. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Feb 23 13:10:10 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:10:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <200602231855.KAA31244@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: > Most shill's can be noticed by looking at the buyers records. > If they have a lot of buying from the same seller, it is a good > chance that they are a shill. And what about some of us sellers and buyers that have built up good relationships with multiple repeat sales? Hmmm????? Your blanket statement covers much more than you think. The best way to detect a shill is to...well, you can't. That is the problem. Too many perfectly valid and honest auction players can look like shills. The best bet is to know they will always be there, but not in the numbers that people think, and just be prepared to fall victim at some point. After all, you were willing to spend that money, right? Other than the feeling of being ripped off, there really is no loss to you. Move on with life, then think about the times that you won something for far less than what was expected.. > Ebay doesn't seem to do much more than warn the seller when > they are notified. This is even when it is obvious shilling. I have never been hassled for shilling (I have been asked, but have outright refused, even from friends), but I know that Ebay will warn once, then BANG - suspension. Getting back on is a major pain, and can take weeks, or even months. It is real, and it happens. William 99.6% Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Feb 23 13:07:27 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:07:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: WTD: Card separators/risers Message-ID: <200602231907.LAA31686@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi These are usually called standoffs. Digikey has many types and sizes. Give me material and thread sizes and I can give you a digikey part number. Dwight >From: "B. Degnan" > >Hi - >I searched for card separators on Digikey, Code Micro, or Jameco (some >people call them "risers.") - no specific luck. I have emailed them for >assistance. In the mean time... > >As I wrote before I am trying to install a small computer board on top of a >computer motherboard, so that the smaller board is about 9/16" separated >from the motherboard. There is not much clearance and I want to just make >it a few hairs above the IC's on the motherboard or I can't close the lid >of the computer. There are holes in both boards that line up for the >risers (the small board is made to be attached to the motherboard with >risers). My local Radio Shack's card separators/risers are either too >short or too tall. > >The card separators/risers have screw holes on either end so that you can >fasten them to the boards. > >Does anyone in this group have four 9/16" risers that they'd like to sell >or trade me? I actually found two in my supplies, but I need four of the >same height. If anyone would like a picture to get a better idea of what I >need, let me know via private email. > >Bill Degnan > > From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 23 13:14:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 12:14:50 -0700 Subject: Hamfests In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 20 Feb 2006 20:47:10 -0800. <20060221044710.28110.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <20060221044710.28110.qmail at web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > are these at this point in time still any good for > procuring puter gear of a vintage nature? My feeling is no, based on recent reports on the list from some people who have attended hamfests. (This subject has also come up tangentially from other threads.) However, I've never even been able to find a hamfest to attend, so I'm not an authoritative source on the matter. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 23 13:19:26 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:19:26 -0800 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <200602231855.KAA31244@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200602231855.KAA31244@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200602231119260064.33F635B8@10.0.0.252> Few people who were with eBay back in the early days (I've been with them for about 8 years) realize how drastically the environment has changed. I recently asked a question on one of their discussion fora and was deried as being hopelessly naive. The general attitude was that eBay was a shark tank and that it wasn't for everyone, particularly the warm-blooded (wonder how that squares with eBay's current advertising?). What would have been called abuses now seem to be the normal way of operation. For example, I was told that I was a pollyanna because I'd only had one user ID. Some of these guys go through user IDs like jellybeans. Shill bidding? It's not shill bidding if a group of folks have an "understanding"--such collusion is nearly impossible to prove. AND THESE FRANK ADMISSIONS WERE BEING MADE ON AN EBAY-MODERATED FORUM! Bottom line: treat eBay as if it were a fly-by-night flea market run by thieves where you aren't actually allowed to inspect merchandise, only photos of it. Ask lots of questions and never show your hand. Bid what you're willing to pay and not a penny more. Trust no one. Cheers, Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Feb 23 13:36:08 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:36:08 -0800 Subject: need docs and warez for IBM System/23 Datamaster (5322) In-Reply-To: <20060218054040.65754.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060218054040.65754.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1140723368.7162.43.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-02-17 at 21:40 -0800, Chris M wrote: > good luck I know. Maybe someone could at least tell me > how to get into the BASIC interpreter (if it really > has one). Does this thing really have an 8085? Maybe I > have to look again. Neither I nor the bloke who gave > it to me could find it. Certainly has alot of strange > looking IBM house #ed chips. I hate proprietary ****. > Yes, it has a BASIC interpreter (actually it semi compiles which is why there's a pause when you type RUN). BASIC is in ROM and is completely written in 8085 assembler (so, yes it does have an 8085). -- TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 23 13:42:30 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:42:30 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <575131af0602230709i2178434ta0beb432d4c7d835@mail.gmail.com> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0602220416v527f9c01k48143acc8572cea4@mail.gmail.com> <1140613592.26669.6.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> <575131af0602230709i2178434ta0beb432d4c7d835@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200602231142300865.340B5719@10.0.0.252> On 2/23/2006 at 3:09 PM Liam Proven wrote: >So. What is a segment, what is a page, and what is the difference? I >know that pre-386 Intel x86 chips used a 64k segment size and that >this caused problems, but little more than that. We're suffering a bit from nomenclature problems. Generally speaking, paging consists of dividing addressing space up into equally-sized chunks of memory, and swapping these chunks of memory from a secondary store. Optimization (i.e. making sure that related pages are in primary memory at the same time) is left to the operating system (hence, you'll see terms like "demand paging" (basically dumb paging) or "working set paging" (an attempt to predict the behavior of a program based on its history)). Segmentation operates at a higher level. A segment may represent all or part of a DLL or data structure--in other words, contents of a segment are more likely to be related. Segments are not usually of equal size. Since a segment is swapped in as unit, contiguous physical memory must be available for it--hence Windows insistence on using handles for memory allocation (the implication is that things can move). Consider a segment to be a chapter in a book--it's a logical entity. In general, a well-designed program operating in segmented mode has the potential of swapping less than one that is paged. However, paging frees the programmer from worrying about organizing things in segmented fashion (and having to deal with selectors)--what is seen is simply a huge linear address space (Usually CS=DS=ES=FS=GS and nobody changes them). But when we talk about segmentation, don't confuse this with Intel's unfortunate labeling of CS DS ES FS and GS as "segment" registers in real mode. That was a bad name for them--better to have called them "paragraph registers". In fact, when you get into 286 segmented mode, Intel calls them "selectors", not segment registers. Yes, in 286 segmented mode, the size of a segment is limited to 64K, but that's because the segment length field is 16 bits. Segments can be smaller than 64K. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 23 13:45:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:45:53 -0800 Subject: WTD: Card separators/risers In-Reply-To: <200602231907.LAA31686@ca2h0430.amd.com> References: <200602231907.LAA31686@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <200602231145530136.340E6D38@10.0.0.252> On 2/23/2006 at 11:07 AM Dwight Elvey wrote: >Hi > These are usually called standoffs. Digikey has many types >and sizes. Give me material and thread sizes and I can >give you a digikey part number. >Dwight And don't forget that you can purchase aluminum, brass or nylon rod, and simply cut and tap it if really unsual sizes are needed. In a pinch, I've done the same with maple dowels. Cheers, Chuck From spc at conman.org Thu Feb 23 13:46:25 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:46:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <575131af0602230709i2178434ta0beb432d4c7d835@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Feb 23, 2006 03:09:45 PM Message-ID: <20060223194625.2EB6473029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated: > > So. What is a segment, what is a page, and what is the difference? I > know that pre-386 Intel x86 chips used a 64k segment size and that > this caused problems, but little more than that. Segments have a starting address with a length associated with each segment, and paging is ... well ... a bit more complicated. I'll start with the 8086. In order to address more than 64K you can do one of a few things: you can increase the size of the addressing registers, you can bank switch memory, or you can do something that kind of mixes the two. The 8086 does this mixing. Each register on the 8086 is 16 bits in size, so the most that can be addressed is 64K. To get around this, the engineers at Intel added four segment registers that marked the start of a 64K block of memory. Since the address space of the 8086 was 20 bits, these segment registers were multipled by 16 (shifted left by 4) to get the physical address of the segment, then the 16 bit offset was added to this. So, the next instruction was pointed to by the CS:IP registers (CS is the Code Segment register, and IP is the instruction pointer), each being 16 bits. The math looked like: +---- ---- ---- ----+ | CS |0000 +---- ---- ---- ----+----+ + 0000| IP | +---- ---- ---- ----+ +------------------------+ | 20-bit physical addr | +------------------------+ The other three segment registers are DS (data segment), SS (stack segment) and ES (extra segment). There are implied segments to use depending upon the instruction (anything instruction related goes through CS, all data references use DS *except* references via BP use SS, stack references use SS and there are a few instructions that use ES by default. You can however, override the segment but it's an additional byte in the instruction stream). On the 80286, in protected mode, the segment registers no longer point to physical memory, but are instead indecies into a segment table that describes the segment. The segment register is still 16 bits however. The segment register (aka selector register) now has the format: +------------- ---+ | index | p | +------------- ---+ The first 13 bits (I'm going from memory here so details may be a bit sketchy) are the index into the selector table, and the last three bits are used for protection. Each entry in the selector table has the following fields: Physical address 24 bits Length of segment 16 bits Direction flag 1 bit Permissions a few bits Present flag 1 bit The direction flag instructs the CPU that the segment either starts at the physical address with addresses increasing, or *ends* at the physical address with addresses decreasing (for stacks typically). The present flag is set if the segment is in physical memory, otherwist it's not and the rest of the selector entry is not interpreted (this means that the OS can use the rest of the entry mark where on the swap device this segment is in this case). If you try to reference memory outside the segment, you get a fault. The reference (sorry for the lack of diagrams---using pseudo code here, with the CS:IP pair): if (!segtable[cs.index].present) segfault(cs:ip); if (ip > segtable[cs.index].length) segfault(cs:ip); physaddr = segtable[cs.index].physaddr + ip; The 80386 intruduced paging (and 32 bit registers but that's not important right now). Paging is slightly different. The program works with logical addresses: +--------------------------------+ | 32-bit address | +--------------------------------+ When a reference is made to memory, the CPU treats the address (on the 80386) as a collection of three offsets: +-------------------------------+ | offset 1 | offset 2 | offset 3| +-------------------------------+ (I don't recall the exact length of each one, but the last offset is 12 bits in size). Offset 1 is an entry in the top level page table, with each entry having a structure similar to the segment table for the 80286: Physical address 32 bits Size 32 bits Present flag 1 bit Permissions a few bits Offset 2 points to a second level table with the same structure, and offset 3 is a pointer into the actual bit of memory. So the address calculation looks like: if (!page1[ip.off1].present) pagefault(page1,ip); page2 = page1[ip.off1].physaddr; if (!page2[ip.off2].present) pagefault(page2,ip); physaddr = page2[ip.off2].physaddr + ip.off3; The reason for the two levels is so you can have a spare address space and waste less memory in keeping the page tables around (each process has its own page table). Now, the 80386 can do both segments *and* paging at the same time (if that's the case, I think it does the segment calculations first, then the paging calculations) but not many operating systems actually use both (well, they will set up a small segment table where each segment covers the full address space, but they don't bother to swap segments). -spc (Hope that clears some of the issues up) From vrs at msn.com Thu Feb 23 13:50:53 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:50:53 -0800 Subject: WTD: Card separators/risers References: <200602231907.LAA31686@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: > These are usually called standoffs. Digikey has many types > and sizes. Give me material and thread sizes and I can > give you a digikey part number. A tip on these -- buy them by the thousand. They are expensive in small quantities, but you can get them in bulk on eBay, etc. The main parameters are the size of the fastener (#4, #6, #8), and whether you want male or female ends, and threaded or not. Lesser parameters determine the length of the threaded post, etc. Vince From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Feb 23 14:24:33 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:24:33 -0600 Subject: VAXstations in London Message-ID: <7400b3b354a24b7b9cc633de06286393@valleyimplants.com> >All those caveats aside, you mean? 8?/ Not really, I don't find those caveats very limiting, and the VS3100/76 is a nice small lowish-power Rigel box (7.6 VUPs) that can be had cheaply. VS4000s are substantially more expensive, unless you can source them locally, and the bigger boxes have more proprietary parts that can't be hacked (I'm still trying to figure out how to get a VAX 4200 running with no drive sleds and no real SCSI) My 3176 zipps along fairly well with 32MB of RAM, a 2GB IBM disk, and a WY-150 console (I took a 6 position modular jack and shaved off the latch with a chisel. It stays in pretty well on its own, and can be taped or otherwise clipped if falling out is a problem). I've had no problems with the 1 GB limit yet (VMS is stable, I've managed to crash UNIX much more often), but I've heard that the dump option that scribbles on bigger disks can be shut off. 3100/76s (of course-they're DEC) use proprietary RAM, but on a VAX 16 MB should be O.K., especially if you aren't running DECwindows. You could take both /76s and cluster them, even, if you want more fun. The proprietary SCSI connector can be gotten around by balancing an old Toshiba on the box with the cover off. The drive plate ensures that the processor is sufficiently cooled, even with the cover off. Go ahead and grab one, I would if they were closer. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 23 14:28:07 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 13:28:07 -0700 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060223090037.0598c3a0@mail> References: <3.0.6.16.20060222203719.1127386c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <009701c6382d$401d8cc0$6700a8c0@vrs> <6.2.3.4.2.20060223090037.0598c3a0@mail> Message-ID: <43FE1AD7.5020703@jetnet.ab.ca> John Foust wrote: > > It's even true of any mail order business: Customer says they opened > the box and it was full of packing peanuts and a chunk of wood, not > their computer part. What happens? The sliding beads got lost in the peanuts again. Keep looking. You get what you pay for so if it is too good to be true it often is. > - John > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 23 14:31:59 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 12:31:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060223122736.A32401@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 23 Feb 2006, Gary Sparkes wrote: > How about anything that'd fit on an atari portfolio, in 64kb ram card?:) I've used the DeSmet C in an Atari Portfolio. I used two RAM cards, and swapped them. That was the commercial licensed version, but the freeware one should do OK. Doing MARC records required some careful dynamic memory allocation, since defining each field as char[] at max size would require about 260K per record, while the information content averages about 250 bytes. From mokuba at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 14:37:31 2006 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 15:37:31 -0500 Subject: Fischertechnik Interface / Documentation? Message-ID: <80b37ffc0602231237y742d9d7cxebb7a39bb58d64a4@mail.gmail.com> I'm assisting in the construction and control of a robot for a competition with my highschool based around a "fischertechnik interface". I don't have any documentation or information on this interface, besides the fact that it's parallel port controlled and most of the control was done through various BASICS (C64, Apple 2, etc) I'm not even sure the documentation I have with the basic listings is for this interface. I'm hunting for information, but there isn't much avalable for this. The only real distinctive markings are "32372 - 1188 HD", FCC ID FZQ2WT UNIVERSAL... it's a black bottom with a clear plastic topped case, there's two sets of voltage inputs plus what appears to be a ground. there appears to be two parallel port pin headers? plus the header for output and motor control (four motor circuts) If it helps, there's a blank IC spot with "4050" in it. -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 23 14:40:48 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 15:40:48 -0500 Subject: VAXstations in London In-Reply-To: <7400b3b354a24b7b9cc633de06286393@valleyimplants.com> References: <7400b3b354a24b7b9cc633de06286393@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200602231540.48856.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 23 February 2006 15:24, compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > >All those caveats aside, you mean? 8?/ > > Not really, I don't find those caveats very limiting, and the > VS3100/76 is a nice small lowish-power Rigel box (7.6 VUPs) that can > be had cheaply. VS4000s are substantially more expensive, unless you > can source them locally, and the bigger boxes have more proprietary > parts that can't be hacked (I'm still trying to figure out how to get > a VAX 4200 running with no drive sleds and no real SCSI) Ethernet and netbooting? Works just fine with VMS and NetBSD... > My 3176 > zipps along fairly well with 32MB of RAM, a 2GB IBM disk, and a > WY-150 console (I took a 6 position modular jack and shaved off the > latch with a chisel. It stays in pretty well on its own, and can be > taped or otherwise clipped if falling out is a problem). Or you can get a real MMJ cable for a few $. I was selling MMJ cables up to 15-20 ft for $5 incl. shipping before, and would do it again if someone asked. Of course, if you're too cheap to spend $5 on a cable that fits properly, that's your own choice.. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 23 14:59:41 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 15:59:41 -0500 Subject: Should this be considered an ancestor of laptops? Message-ID: <003301c638bc$1117fe30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> http://www.oldcomputers.freeserve.co.uk/newbrain-inside-grundy.html It does have a small display, but it seems like the primary use is with an external monitor. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 23 15:07:07 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:07:07 -0500 Subject: Should this be considered an ancestor of laptops? In-Reply-To: <003301c638bc$1117fe30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <003501c638bd$1b441960$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Wow lookie here: http://www.oldcomputers.freeserve.co.uk/page-3-newbury-nb.html So they definitely thought of it not just as a desktop with a small display in the main unit, but really as a portable... The site old-computers.com (http://old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=176) has conflicting information on whether it's from 1980 or 1982... But that matters because is it's 1980, then it's before the "pocket computer" (HHC) generation; if it's 1982, then it's very cool but not the "first" of anything. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 4:00 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Should this be considered an ancestor of laptops? http://www.oldcomputers.freeserve.co.uk/newbrain-inside-grundy.html It does have a small display, but it seems like the primary use is with an external monitor. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 23 15:11:47 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:11:47 +0000 Subject: Should this be considered an ancestor of laptops? In-Reply-To: <003301c638bc$1117fe30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <003301c638bc$1117fe30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <43FE2513.4000000@yahoo.co.uk> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > http://www.oldcomputers.freeserve.co.uk/newbrain-inside-grundy.html > > It does have a small display, but it seems like the primary use is with an > external monitor. I don't know, the battery pack's the same size as the machine, so I think it'd be a little uncomfortable to use as a laptop - it's more in the 'compact portable' class I think... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Feb 23 15:22:11 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:22:11 +0000 Subject: Should this be considered an ancestor of laptops? In-Reply-To: <003501c638bd$1b441960$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <003501c638bd$1b441960$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <43FE2783.80509@yahoo.co.uk> 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Wow lookie here: > http://www.oldcomputers.freeserve.co.uk/page-3-newbury-nb.html > > So they definitely thought of it not just as a desktop with a small display > in the main unit, but really as a portable... Portable, yes - but too awkward for any series use as a laptop I'd think. > The site old-computers.com > (http://old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=176) has conflicting > information on whether it's from 1980 or 1982... But that matters because is > it's 1980, then it's before the "pocket computer" (HHC) generation; if it's > 1982, then it's very cool but not the "first" of anything. Hmm, if I were to take an educated guess, I'd put the project start date somewhere around the start of 1980, and the launch date somewhere in 1981. The machine was a possible candidate for the BBC Computer Literacy Project, but wasn't ready in time - resulting in the BBC standardising on Acorn's Proton (what became known as the BBC Model A and B) The BBC were looking for a machine to 'adopt' in 1980 I think, so the Newbrain must have been in some sort of design / prototype phase at that point. The first Acorn BBC machines were let loose in the latter end of 1981 though, so presumably production Newbrains followed soon after... Unfortunately I'm not sure who the resident authority on Newbrains would be, although Witchy probably knows a fair bit about them and may have some useful info up on binarydinosaurs. cheers Jules From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 23 15:28:51 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:28:51 -0500 Subject: Should this be considered an ancestor of laptops? In-Reply-To: <43FE2783.80509@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <004201c638c0$2452f2d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> although Witchy probably knows a fair bit about them and may have some useful info up on binarydinosaurs. Indeed! http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Grundy/index.php -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 4:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Should this be considered an ancestor of laptops? 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Wow lookie here: > http://www.oldcomputers.freeserve.co.uk/page-3-newbury-nb.html > > So they definitely thought of it not just as a desktop with a small > display in the main unit, but really as a portable... Portable, yes - but too awkward for any series use as a laptop I'd think. > The site old-computers.com > (http://old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=176) has > conflicting information on whether it's from 1980 or 1982... But that > matters because is it's 1980, then it's before the "pocket computer" > (HHC) generation; if it's 1982, then it's very cool but not the "first" of anything. Hmm, if I were to take an educated guess, I'd put the project start date somewhere around the start of 1980, and the launch date somewhere in 1981. The machine was a possible candidate for the BBC Computer Literacy Project, but wasn't ready in time - resulting in the BBC standardising on Acorn's Proton (what became known as the BBC Model A and B) The BBC were looking for a machine to 'adopt' in 1980 I think, so the Newbrain must have been in some sort of design / prototype phase at that point. The first Acorn BBC machines were let loose in the latter end of 1981 though, so presumably production Newbrains followed soon after... Unfortunately I'm not sure who the resident authority on Newbrains would be, although Witchy probably knows a fair bit about them and may have some useful info up on binarydinosaurs. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 23 15:36:20 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 13:36:20 -0800 Subject: Should this be considered an ancestor of laptops? In-Reply-To: <43FE2513.4000000@yahoo.co.uk> References: <003301c638bc$1117fe30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <43FE2513.4000000@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200602231336200185.347390D3@10.0.0.252> Hmmm, no mention anywhere of the diskette drive, 96 tpi 5.25" single-sided MFM. Cheers, Chuck From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 15:48:08 2006 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 08:48:08 +1100 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay References: <200602231855.KAA31244@ca2h0430.amd.com> Message-ID: <00c201c638c2$d74ce6f0$6500a8be@pentium> From: "Dwight Elvey" > Most shill's can be noticed by looking at the buyers records. > If they have a lot of buying from the same seller, it is a good > chance that they are a shill. Not always the case, I sell quite a bit of Commodore equipment & I have regular buyers (in fact one guy has bought 28 items from me in the last four years). In the same vein, there are sellers that I have bought many items off because they have what I want, and they are reliable. The statement is way too broad. cheers, Lance // http://landover.no-ip.com Classic machines, classic software // From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 23 16:05:59 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 17:05:59 -0500 Subject: Should this be considered an ancestor of laptops? In-Reply-To: <43FE2783.80509@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <004901c638c5$543db200$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> The first Acorn BBC machines were let loose in the latter end of 1981 though, so presumably production Newbrains followed soon after... Hmmm .... I just read these two pages: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Grundy/gerald.php http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Grundy/index.php So then the first model (the AD) shipped in 1982, right? (That's what the old-computers.com entry indicates.) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 23 16:08:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:08:21 -0800 Subject: US Robotics PC? Message-ID: <200602231408210919.3490E398@10.0.0.252> This was back, oh, in about 1978. I was at one of the trade shows (don't remember which one) and there was a fellow with a computer with integrated monitor, disk drives and a printer (sticking out of the top) in a fairly large black box--probably Z80, but I can't be sure. I remember that it was USR because of the unusual name of the company. Has anyone else ever seen one of these beasts? Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 23 16:19:02 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 15:19:02 -0700 Subject: HP2648A tape drive capstans In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 05 Feb 2006 11:40:40 +0100. Message-ID: Found this today, thought I'd share: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 23 13:33:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 19:33:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <26c11a640602221701q7be0efe4m@mail.gmail.com> from "Dan Williams" at Feb 23, 6 01:01:08 am Message-ID: > think that is because they didn't have a verified account. I had the > same from a seller in Germany they left me bad feedback because I > don't have that set up on my account. They would only accept a bank > transfer which would of cost me =A330 for an item that only cost =A320 > which I refused to pay. I don't much care for Paypal, but I care even less for bank transfers (I can't do a Westurn Union transfer, the one time I tried, the WU office needed either a passport or driving license as ID, I have neither). I very rarely bifd on an E-bay auction if the seller won't take Paypal. I did once (and that was to Germany) -- the item was sufficiently rate (an HPIB interface for the 9830) amd had a very low B-I-N that I thought it was worth the trouble. It was -- but only just. What is it with German sellers? It appears that very few of them take Paypal. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 23 14:08:47 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 20:08:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: from "compoobah@valleyimplants.com" at Feb 22, 6 11:23:36 pm Message-ID: > > {The Design of OS/2} by Deitel and Kogan (how do you delineate titles of bo= > oks when you can't underline or italicize?) seems to indicate that the trip= > le fault switch back to real mode is relying on a "feature" of the 80286, s= > ince for the reset method it talks about the hardware involved (keyboard co= > ntroller on AT, I/O port electonics on PS/2). The book also makes the note = > that "compared ot the other alternatives, the process [triple faulting] is = > a slow one" (285).=0D=0A I've dug out the appropriate books (I hope). Firstly, from the Intel 80286 data sheet : 'Double Fault and Shutdown If two separate exceptions are detected during a single instruction execution, the 80286 performs the double fault exception (8). If an execution (I think this should be 'exception' -- ARD) occurs during processing of the double fault exception, the 80286 will enter shutdown. During shutdown, no further instrucions or exceptions are processed. Either NMI (CPU remains in protected mode) or RESET (CPU exits protected mode) wcan force the 80286 out of shutdown. Shutdown is externally signaled via a HALT bus operation with A1 low.' According to another bit of the data sheet : COD/INTA* = 0, M/IO* = 1. S1* = 0. S0* = 0 -> If A1=1 then halt, else shutdown. So that's what a shutdown looks like on th CPU pins. Now to the IBM PC/AT Techref. I am looking at the Type 2 System Board diagrams (this is the verion with 256K DRAMs), but similar logic exists on the Type 1 board (which uses those 128K piggyback RAM modules). OK, on sheet 21 of the schemaitc, we have U84b (a '27 NOR gate). This NORs S0, S1, and A1, and the output goes high if it's a shutdown/interrupt acknowledge cycle. This clocks the state of the M/IO* line into U105b (a '74 D-type), the output of this flip-flop goes high if it's actually a shutdown cycle. The output of that is delayed twice and inverted by a couple more '74 D-types, and becomes the 'Shutdown-' signal. Turn back to page 1, that's logically ORed with power-fail signal to form the CPU reset signal. Note that the rseet signal from the keyboard controller (page 16), called 'RC', sets U105b, and resets the CPU that way. So it's partly down to the 80286 (detecting the triple fault and doing a shutdown) and partly down to IBM hardware (forcing a reset if this happens). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 23 13:45:02 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 19:45:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Squeal on Older Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <43FD2637.17B85582@rain.org> from "Marvin Johnston" at Feb 22, 6 07:04:23 pm Message-ID: > > > Interesting FYI ... Like anyone who has been around the early days of > micro HDs, I have heard HDs make an attention getting squeal. After a > while, we knew/found out that it was caused by the grounding spring on > the bottom of the drive, and bend it out of the way. In glancing through > some old Compaq Service Bulletins, I saw IN PRINT that the fix was to > remove the grounding strap with the comment that the drive is adequately > grounded though other contact points. Is it, though? The spring is not to ground the whole drive, it's to ground the spindle/disks. Apparently, static buildyp on the disks can cause read errors (it induces small signals in the read heads), and the bearings may not be that good a conductor due to the lubricant forming an insulating film. Certainly just about all hard drives (including the demountable ones on my '11s) have grounding contacts. You would therefroe think they performed some useful purpose. -tony From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Feb 23 16:28:13 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:28:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay Message-ID: <200602232228.OAA04777@ca2h0430.amd.com> >From: "Lance Lyon" > >From: "Dwight Elvey" > >> Most shill's can be noticed by looking at the buyers records. >> If they have a lot of buying from the same seller, it is a good >> chance that they are a shill. > >Not always the case, I sell quite a bit of Commodore equipment & I have >regular buyers (in fact one guy has bought 28 items from me in the last four >years). In the same vein, there are sellers that I have bought many items >off because they have what I want, and they are reliable. > >The statement is way too broad. > >cheers, > >Lance > >// http://landover.no-ip.com > Classic machines, classic software // > Hi I would suspect that those buyer also buys from many others. I meant that the buyer only buys from one seller and buys many types of items. I doubt this is the case you have mentioned. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 23 15:54:43 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:54:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel In-Reply-To: <43FD5A31.6040108@mindspring.com> from "Don North" at Feb 22, 6 10:46:09 pm Message-ID: > The only problem with SPC slots is they are 18b UNIBUS only. This will > work on 256KB 18b machines, but is a sticky problem on 4MB 22b machines, > since you need to go thru the UNIBUS map to get to all of memory. > > For an 11/44, you could do just a dual slot card that goes in a memory > slot (which has 22b address available) and an SPC slot (to get the DMA > lines) but this would be a hex card. To read/write memory, you would > need to be a 22b DMA device, which I'm not sure the 11/44 can handle AFAIK there are no 22 bit DAM devices on the Unibus. The processor (either the MMU or the Unibus Map) always drives the memory address lines -- DMA addresses from the Unibus are translated (via the Unibus Map) to the correct 22 bit address for memory I don't think even an 18 bit could work on a 11/44. You could use DMA cycles to access memory, but since your (18 bit) address would go through the Unibus Map, you'd not actually know where you were accessing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 23 16:00:50 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 22:00:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WTD: Card separators/risers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20060223084934.027a0bc8@mail.degnanco.net> from "B. Degnan" at Feb 23, 6 08:51:42 am Message-ID: > > Hi - > I searched for card separators on Digikey, Code Micro, or Jameco (some > people call them "risers.") - no specific luck. I have emailed them for > assistance. In the mean time... > > As I wrote before I am trying to install a small computer board on top of a > computer motherboard, so that the smaller board is about 9/16" separated > from the motherboard. There is not much clearance and I want to just make > it a few hairs above the IC's on the motherboard or I can't close the lid > of the computer. There are holes in both boards that line up for the > risers (the small board is made to be attached to the motherboard with > risers). My local Radio Shack's card separators/risers are either too > short or too tall. I beleive what you are looking for are called 'spacers'. In particular, you want spacers with tapped (threaded) holes in each end. I can think of a couple of possibilites... 1) Get some rigid plastic tube from a model shop, and use self-tapping screws through the holes in the board, and screwed into the ends of the tube. 2) Get some hexagonal metal rod, cut to length, drill and tap holes in the ends. This is a lot easier to do if you have access to a lathe... -tony From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Feb 23 16:42:54 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:42:54 -0800 Subject: WTD: Card separators/risers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43FE3A6E.6020702@mindspring.com> Try this place: http://www.mcmaster.com/ ... under the section FASTENING AND SEALING click SPACERS. If they don't have it, it does not exist, and you will have to make it yourself. >> Hi - >> I searched for card separators on Digikey, Code Micro, or Jameco (some >> people call them "risers.") - no specific luck. I have emailed them for >> assistance. In the mean time... >> >> As I wrote before I am trying to install a small computer board on top of a >> computer motherboard, so that the smaller board is about 9/16" separated >> from the motherboard. There is not much clearance and I want to just make >> it a few hairs above the IC's on the motherboard or I can't close the lid >> of the computer. There are holes in both boards that line up for the >> risers (the small board is made to be attached to the motherboard with >> risers). My local Radio Shack's card separators/risers are either too >> short or too tall. >> From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 23 16:44:12 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:44:12 -0800 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602231444120161.34B1B2FA@10.0.0.252> On 2/23/2006 at 7:33 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >What is it with German sellers? It appears that very few of them take >Paypal. I believe it's because bank wire transfers in Germany are almost (if not actually) free. Now, if someone in Germany were to send me a wire transfer, it would cost me at least $40 and probably more, as my bank thought up new names for fees to attach to the transaction. But then, that's about what my bank charges to cash a cashier's check made payable by the New York branch of a German bank. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 23 16:53:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 22:53:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fischertechnik Interface / Documentation? In-Reply-To: <80b37ffc0602231237y742d9d7cxebb7a39bb58d64a4@mail.gmail.com> from "Gary Sparkes" at Feb 23, 6 03:37:31 pm Message-ID: > > I'm assisting in the construction and control of a robot for a competition > with my highschool based around a "fischertechnik interface". I don't have > any documentation or information on this interface, besides the fact that > it's parallel port controlled and most of the control was done through > various BASICS (C64, Apple 2, etc) I have the BBC micro version of this interface, along with the documentation and the original program disk. It is clear that the programs were translated from another micro's BASIC, for example there's a program to make a robot arm move the disks for a Tower of Hanoi, the program srts up arrays to handle the parameter stack for a recursive subroutine call, even though BBC BASIC has named procedures with formal paramterrs. Anyway, I've traced out schematics for the BBC version, the others may be similar. Here are some general comments : It plugs into the BBC user port, and used the 8 data lines only. There are 8 switch inputs. These feed buffers (a 4050 + half a 4071) and drive LEDs so yo can see the state of the inputs. They also go into a shift register. This links to 3 lines on the user port -- clock, load-enable, and data out. The first 2 are outputs from the computer, the last is an input to the comuter. Another shift register (4094 I think) is used for motor output. It uses the same line on the user port for the clock signal, and 2 more outputs One is the seiral data input to the shift register. The other latches the shift register contents (the 4094 includes a latch with 3-state outputs). Oh yes, the clock line also triggers a 555 timer (OK, half a 556, but it's the same thing). This controls the OE line of the 4094, and disables all the motors if the interface gets no clock pulses for a certain time (half a second or so). This prevents the motors from running if the program crashes. The outputs of that 4094 go to some full-H driver ICs -- TLE4201 according to my notebook. These drive some bi-colour LEDs (so you can see what the motors are supposed to be doing) and also the motor outputs to the model. There are 2 variable resistor inputs, and they're strange. Each variable resistor forms the timing resistor of a 555 monostable. These are separately triggered by 2 more lines from the user port. The outputs of those monostables are ORed together, and the output of that controls a 555 astable. The output of that astable, therefore, consists of a pulse train, the number of pulses depends on the value of the variable resistor connected to the monostable that was triggered. And that signal is fed into the last line of the user port, where it's counted by one of the counters in the 6522 VIA used for the user port. The external connections to this interface consist of : A 20 pin ribbon cable and socket to plug into the BBC user port A 20 pin header accessible through a hole in the case. This takes a ribbon cable to the model. It carries the 8 motor lines (2 lines each for each of 4 motors), 8 switch inputs, 2 variable resistor inputs, and 2 5V lines (common for the variable resistors, common for the swtiches). A 20 pin hgeader hidden away inside. Only a few pins are used, this carries the clock, input SR load, Output SR latch, the serial-in to the input SR and the last data bit from the output SR. It can be used to extend the interface to more than 8 switches and 4 motors, but the driver software would need rewriting, and AFAIK this was never used 5 fischertechnik sockets. One is logic ground (marked with an upside-down T). The otehr 2 are 2 pairs for power supply inputs. They were designed to link to a fishcertechnik transformer, you need a DC supply of 7-10V. It's used directly to power the motors, rgulated down to 5V for the logic. You only need to use one set (particularly if you have a nice bench supply...), and there are internal protection diodes if you connect the supply backwards. FWIW it took me under an afternoon to trace out schematics and sort the whole thing out... Let me know if you want me to look further. I can give pinouts for the connectors on the BBC interface, for example (the 'model' connector seems to be the same on all such interfaces). -tony From CCTalk at catcorner.org Thu Feb 23 18:05:18 2006 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 19:05:18 -0500 Subject: MS-DOS 2.0 and "semi compatibles" Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A33808@mail.catcorner.org> I just imaged a disk of an MS-DOS compatible computer (Tandy 2000). Does anyone here know the magic number of an exe under ms-dos 2.0? I had assumed that it was MZ, like current exe files, but I only see 2 or 3 occurrences of this in the entire data stream from the disk. On the plus side, I see LOTS of strings that tell me I have actually read the contents of the disk (this machine used DS/QD drives). Here are some examples: Licensed to Tandy Corp. BIOS version 01.00.00 Copyright 1983 Tandy Corp. All rights reserved. MS-DOS version 02.00.00 Copr. 1981,82,83 Microsoft Corp. I'm guessing I need a good hex editor to look at the directory and offsets to see if they jibe. Any good windows based hex editors (or at least viewers) that anyone can suggest? I'll send the same message to 'classiccmp' Kelly From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Feb 23 18:37:03 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:37:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: WTD: Card separators/risers Message-ID: <200602240037.QAA08209@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi I'm sure McMaster-Carr has them but of the original group he stated also had them. He was just looking under the wrong name. He should have been looking for standoffs or spacers. The digikey catalog on my lap has them indexed as Harware/Spacers/Standoffs. As a general rule, any hardware that McMaster-Carr doesn't have just plan doesn't exist. Dwight >From: "Don North" > >Try this place: http://www.mcmaster.com/ ... under the section >FASTENING AND SEALING click SPACERS. > >If they don't have it, it does not exist, and you will have to make it >yourself. > >>> Hi - >>> I searched for card separators on Digikey, Code Micro, or Jameco (some >>> people call them "risers.") - no specific luck. I have emailed them for >>> assistance. In the mean time... >>> >>> As I wrote before I am trying to install a small computer board on top of a >>> computer motherboard, so that the smaller board is about 9/16" separated >>> from the motherboard. There is not much clearance and I want to just make >>> it a few hairs above the IC's on the motherboard or I can't close the lid >>> of the computer. There are holes in both boards that line up for the >>> risers (the small board is made to be attached to the motherboard with >>> risers). My local Radio Shack's card separators/risers are either too >>> short or too tall. >>> > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 23 19:23:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 17:23:16 -0800 Subject: MS-DOS 2.0 and "semi compatibles" In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A33808@mail.catcorner.org> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A33808@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <200602231723160344.354354F2@10.0.0.252> On 2/23/2006 at 7:05 PM Kelly Leavitt wrote: >I just imaged a disk of an MS-DOS compatible computer (Tandy 2000). Does >anyone here know the magic number of an exe under ms-dos 2.0? I had assumed >that it was MZ, like current exe files, but I only see 2 or 3 occurrences >of this in the entire data stream from the disk. On the plus side, I see LOTS >of strings that tell me I have actually read the contents of the disk (this >machine used DS/QD drives). Why does this surprise you? I think that it'd be safe to say that the preponderance of executables in the old 2.0 and before days were .COM files. But AFAIK, it's always been MZ--though I can check my DOS 2.0 and DOS 1.1 docs for you. Cheers, Chuck From CCTalk at catcorner.org Thu Feb 23 19:26:20 2006 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 20:26:20 -0500 Subject: MS-DOS 2.0 and "semi compatibles" Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A3380C@mail.catcorner.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:23 PM > On 2/23/2006 at 7:05 PM Kelly Leavitt wrote: > > >I just imaged a disk of an MS-DOS compatible computer (Tandy > 2000). Does > >anyone here know the magic number of an exe under ms-dos 2.0? I had > assumed > >that it was MZ, like current exe files, but I only see 2 or > 3 occurrences > >of this in the entire data stream from the disk. On the plus > side, I see > LOTS > >of strings that tell me I have actually read the contents of the disk > (this > >machine used DS/QD drives). > > Why does this surprise you? I think that it'd be safe to say that the > preponderance of executables in the old 2.0 and before days were .COM > files. But AFAIK, it's always been MZ--though I can check my > DOS 2.0 and > DOS 1.1 docs for you. Well, there are 8 or 10 programs on the disk in question. Shouldn't MZ then show up 8 or 10 times. If I find a good hex editor I can read the DIR structure and figure out where the files start and see what is there. From CCTalk at catcorner.org Thu Feb 23 19:38:15 2006 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 20:38:15 -0500 Subject: MS-DOS 2.0 and "semi compatibles" Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A3380D@mail.catcorner.org> Another string in the some of the disk images: Chris Peters helped with the new dos! Microsoft rules ok Heh! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 23 19:55:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 17:55:14 -0800 Subject: MS-DOS 2.0 and "semi compatibles" In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A3380C@mail.catcorner.org> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A3380C@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <200602231755140342.35609920@10.0.0.252> On 2/23/2006 at 8:26 PM Kelly Leavitt wrote: >Well, there are 8 or 10 programs on the disk in question. Shouldn't MZ then >show up 8 or 10 times. If I find a good hex editor I can read the DIR >structure and figure out where the files start and see what is there. No--not in the case of .com files, which are just memory images ORG-ed at offset 100 in the PSP. No structure at all. For a useful hex/ASCII file browser, Vern Buerg's LIST is hard to beat--and you don't need windows for it. http://www.buerg.com/ Cheers, Chuck From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 23 20:01:02 2006 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 18:01:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: TI and firsts Message-ID: <20060224020102.74397.qmail@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I was scanning some of my TI-99/4A docs and noticed this on the back cover... "Texas Instruments invented the integrated circuit, the microprocessor, and the microcomputer. Being first is our tradition." The microprocessor? Anyone know what they use to make that claim? David http://www.trailingedge.com From CCTalk at catcorner.org Thu Feb 23 20:08:02 2006 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:08:02 -0500 Subject: MS-DOS 2.0 and "semi compatibles" Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A3380F@mail.catcorner.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:55 PM > On 2/23/2006 at 8:26 PM Kelly Leavitt wrote: > > >Well, there are 8 or 10 programs on the disk in question. > Shouldn't MZ > then > >show up 8 or 10 times. If I find a good hex editor I can read the DIR > >structure and figure out where the files start and see what is there. > > No--not in the case of .com files, which are just memory > images ORG-ed at > offset 100 in the PSP. No structure at all. > > For a useful hex/ASCII file browser, Vern Buerg's LIST is > hard to beat--and > you don't need windows for it. > > http://www.buerg.com/ D'OH! I LOVE list, just haven't used it in a LONG time. Of course, now I need to add a TCP/IP stack to my disk imaging machine. Disks are getting tiresome, and rebooting to Linux when I have the images, or need something from the net is bothersome. Time to dig up the WFW disks... From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 23 20:13:11 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:13:11 -0500 Subject: TI and firsts In-Reply-To: <20060224020102.74397.qmail@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003701c638e7$dcd22c00$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> Anyone know what they use to make that claim? Partially the serious work of Jack Kilby, partially marketing babble. Several people / companies say they're the first to have made a microprocessor. So much work was military / classified back then that, in my opinion, it will hard to ever know the full truth. I won't even touch the "microcomputer" claim. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 9:01 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: TI and firsts I was scanning some of my TI-99/4A docs and noticed this on the back cover... "Texas Instruments invented the integrated circuit, the microprocessor, and the microcomputer. Being first is our tradition." The microprocessor? Anyone know what they use to make that claim? David http://www.trailingedge.com From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Feb 23 20:28:57 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:28:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Should this be considered an ancestor of laptops? In-Reply-To: <003301c638bc$1117fe30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: Just yesterday I saw a Teletype 31 at a buddy's place - basically a 1/2 sized model 28 (or maybe 19) with a handle on top and a folding case. Reporters would take these to sporting events and new conferences and just plug into preinstalled loops back to the home office. 1950s laptops! William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Feb 23 20:49:21 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:49:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: US Robotics PC? In-Reply-To: <200602231408210919.3490E398@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > I remember that it was USR because of the unusual name of the company. Has > anyone else ever seen one of these beasts? Never saw one, and I often cleaned up USRs junk room. William Donzelli ex integrat at usr.com aw288 at osfn.org From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 23 21:07:00 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 22:07:00 -0500 Subject: Should this be considered an ancestor of laptops? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c638ef$616f9680$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Hmm, I Googled, couldn't find any photos. Could you / your friend send me one off-list please? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 9:29 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Should this be considered an ancestor of laptops? Just yesterday I saw a Teletype 31 at a buddy's place - basically a 1/2 sized model 28 (or maybe 19) with a handle on top and a folding case. Reporters would take these to sporting events and new conferences and just plug into preinstalled loops back to the home office. 1950s laptops! William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Feb 23 21:31:23 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 19:31:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: TI and firsts In-Reply-To: <20060224020102.74397.qmail@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060224033123.46727.qmail@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com wrote: > "Texas Instruments invented the integrated circuit, > the microprocessor, and the microcomputer. Being > first > is our tradition." > > The microprocessor? Anyone know what they use to > make > that claim? Google for "Gilbert Hyatt microprocessor" From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 23 21:39:03 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 22:39:03 -0500 Subject: TI and firsts In-Reply-To: <20060224033123.46727.qmail@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001c01c638f3$dba21a00$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> And then there's Ray Holt: http://www.microcomputerhistory.com/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Maddox Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 10:31 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: TI and firsts --- nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com wrote: > "Texas Instruments invented the integrated circuit, the > microprocessor, and the microcomputer. Being first is our tradition." > > The microprocessor? Anyone know what they use to make that claim? Google for "Gilbert Hyatt microprocessor" From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Thu Feb 23 21:46:14 2006 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 19:46:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: TI and firsts In-Reply-To: <001c01c638f3$dba21a00$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <20060224034614.45711.qmail@web81002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I've seen the Ray Holt thing before but wasn't familiar with Gilbert Hyatt. So it appears that at the time, TI took on Intel and won the claim, at that time, to the title of creator of the microprocessor. Explains their statement now. --- 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > And then there's Ray Holt: > http://www.microcomputerhistory.com/ > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of William Maddox > Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 10:31 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: TI and firsts > > --- nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com wrote: > > > "Texas Instruments invented the integrated > circuit, the > > microprocessor, and the microcomputer. Being first > is our tradition." > > > > The microprocessor? Anyone know what they use to > make that claim? > > Google for "Gilbert Hyatt microprocessor" > > > David Williams http://www.trailingedge.com From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Feb 23 21:53:34 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 19:53:34 -0800 Subject: Squeal on Older Hard Drives Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: Is it, though? The spring is not to ground the whole drive, it's to ground the spindle/disks. Apparently, static buildyp on the disks can cause read errors (it induces small signals in the read heads), and the bearings may not be that good a conductor due to the lubricant forming an insulating film. Certainly just about all hard drives (including the demountable ones on my '11s) have grounding contacts. You would therefroe think they performed some useful purpose. -tony It was a lot more serious than mere read errors. The static charge on the surface of the disks could build up to thousands of volts in just seconds. And its main discharge path was through the heads - they were the closest to the charge. I changed many a head on the early 14 inch drives that had a clean little burn hole right through the flying surface. The static discharge springs had a metal button that fit on the end of the spindle shaft. It was metal to metal so there was always some wear. If the button wasn't replaced when it wore, the charge wasn't bled off and sooner or later, took out a head and usually the preamp. Maintenance schedules always included cleaning and inspecting the springs. Very quickly, other schemes can into use that alleviated the need for the discharge spring. The most practical was a ferrofludic seal on the top of the bearings. The design goal was a path of around 10K ohm to ground. That would bleed off the charge but not put a spike on the ground. Tony is right about bearings not being that good of a path. But ferrofludic seals were excellent and the resistance could be controlled. They came in about the time of the transition from 14 inch to 8 inch drives. So some 14 inch drives didn't need a static discharge spring, but most did. I only saw one 8 inch drive with a discharge spring. After that, the ferrofludic seal was standard. I would never ever bend a spring away from the spindle. Too many bad experiences. The noise was a necessary pain. You can ease it by moving the spring slightly, so a different part of the button is touching. All the designs I know have oblong holes on the spring, so you can tweak the adjustment. It's unfathomable to me why an OEM would tell its customers to bend the spring away from the spindle. Billy From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Feb 23 22:11:56 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 23:11:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Should this be considered an ancestor of laptops? In-Reply-To: <000601c638ef$616f9680$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: > Hmm, I Googled, couldn't find any photos. Could you / your friend send me > one off-list please? I will see what I can do. Do you wany 5 level or 8 level? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From news at computercollector.com Thu Feb 23 22:26:10 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 23:26:10 -0500 Subject: Should this be considered an ancestor of laptops? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002501c638fa$70976fb0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I'll reply off-list ... Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 11:12 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Should this be considered an ancestor of laptops? > Hmm, I Googled, couldn't find any photos. Could you / your friend > send me one off-list please? I will see what I can do. Do you wany 5 level or 8 level? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 23 23:12:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 21:12:01 -0800 Subject: US Robotics PC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602232112010430.3614BF5A@10.0.0.252> On 2/23/2006 at 9:49 PM William Donzelli wrote: >> I remember that it was USR because of the unusual name of the company. >Has >> anyone else ever seen one of these beasts? > >Never saw one, and I often cleaned up USRs junk room. Could have been a one-off for the show. Never ran into anyone who actually bought one. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at blazenet.net Thu Feb 23 23:08:58 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 00:08:58 -0500 Subject: online books for download Message-ID: <200602240008.58492.rtellason@blazenet.net> Some of you might find this site to be of interest: http://www.pmillett.com/tecnical_books_online.htm -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mokuba at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 23:14:10 2006 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 00:14:10 -0500 Subject: Fischertechnik Interface / Documentation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 2/23/06 5:53 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> >> I'm assisting in the construction and control of a robot for a competition >> with my highschool based around a "fischertechnik interface". I don't have >> any documentation or information on this interface, besides the fact that >> it's parallel port controlled and most of the control was done through >> various BASICS (C64, Apple 2, etc) > > I have the BBC micro version of this interface, along with the > documentation and the original program disk. It is clear that the > programs were translated from another micro's BASIC, for example there's > a program to make a robot arm move the disks for a Tower of Hanoi, the > program srts up arrays to handle the parameter stack for a recursive > subroutine call, even though BBC BASIC has named procedures with formal > paramterrs. We've got the IBM PC/Paraport version, of course :) Though there's a nifty adapter board to plug it into an Apple 2's joystick port. > > Anyway, I've traced out schematics for the BBC version, the others may be > similar. Here are some general comments : > > It plugs into the BBC user port, and used the 8 data lines only. > > There are 8 switch inputs. These feed buffers (a 4050 + half a 4071) and > drive LEDs so yo can see the state of the inputs. They also go into a > shift register. This links to 3 lines on the user port -- clock, > load-enable, and data out. The first 2 are outputs from the computer, the > last is an input to the comuter. > I don't think the interface itself actually had any LEDs, and there's a diagram showing pinout for the motor control lines on the top of the case. There's also several lines that you can attatch switches to, we've gota paddle with paperclips on it :) > Another shift register (4094 I think) is used for motor output. It uses the > same line on the user port for the clock signal, and 2 more outputs One > is the seiral data input to the shift register. The other latches the > shift register contents (the 4094 includes a latch with 3-state outputs). > Oh yes, the clock line also triggers a 555 timer (OK, half a 556, but it's > the same thing). This controls the OE line of the 4094, and disables all > the motors if the interface gets no clock pulses for a certain time (half > a second or so). This prevents the motors from running if the program > crashes. > > The outputs of that 4094 go to some full-H driver ICs -- TLE4201 > according to my notebook. These drive some bi-colour LEDs (so you can see > what the motors are supposed to be doing) and also the motor outputs to > the model. > That seems familiar, but I don't recall right now :) > There are 2 variable resistor inputs, and they're strange. Each variable > resistor forms the timing resistor of a 555 monostable. These are > separately triggered by 2 more lines from the user port. The outputs of > those monostables are ORed together, and the output of that controls a > 555 astable. The output of that astable, therefore, consists of a pulse > train, the number of pulses depends on the value of the variable resistor > connected to the monostable that was triggered. And that signal is fed > into the last line of the user port, where it's counted by one of the > counters in the 6522 VIA used for the user port. > I have no idea about the variable inputs. > The external connections to this interface consist of : > > A 20 pin ribbon cable and socket to plug into the BBC user port > > A 20 pin header accessible through a hole in the case. This takes a > ribbon cable to the model. It carries the 8 motor lines (2 lines each for > each of 4 motors), 8 switch inputs, 2 variable resistor inputs, and 2 5V > lines (common for the variable resistors, common for the swtiches). > > A 20 pin hgeader hidden away inside. Only a few pins are used, this > carries the clock, input SR load, Output SR latch, the serial-in to the > input SR and the last data bit from the output SR. It can be used to > extend the interface to more than 8 switches and 4 motors, but the driver > software would need rewriting, and AFAIK this was never used > > 5 fischertechnik sockets. One is logic ground (marked with an upside-down > T). The otehr 2 are 2 pairs for power supply inputs. They were designed > to link to a fishcertechnik transformer, you need a DC supply of 7-10V. > It's used directly to power the motors, rgulated down to 5V for the > logic. You only need to use one set (particularly if you have a nice > bench supply...), and there are internal protection diodes if you connect > the supply backwards. > So I won't blow it if I make a mistake? > FWIW it took me under an afternoon to trace out schematics and sort the > whole thing out... > > Let me know if you want me to look further. I can give pinouts for the > connectors on the BBC interface, for example (the 'model' connector seems > to be the same on all such interfaces). > We've got all that, I'm looking more for programming guidelines, as we've got next to nothing in documentation (Perhaps one apple 2 doc for interfacing with it, and I'd like to use my portfolio to control it, somehow.) I've got several tons of GWBASIC files from a four floppy disk set, and I'm going to tear those apart soon. I was told that some code was needed to be edited and someone who knew older BASICs was wanted ... Turns out, they don't know how to power the damn thing anymore, everyone who knew it is gone... > -tony > From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Feb 23 23:18:18 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 23:18:18 -0600 Subject: MS-DOS 2.0 and "semi compatibles" In-Reply-To: <200602231755140342.35609920@10.0.0.252> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A3380C@mail.catcorner.org> <200602231755140342.35609920@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43FE971A.5090302@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > For a useful hex/ASCII file browser, Vern Buerg's LIST is hard to beat--and > you don't need windows for it. I used to think this for nearly two decades until I started doing development work on 4.77MHz machines (previously the slowest I had worked with was 7.16MHz) and now the buffering and translation just annoys me -- too slow. I've written my own. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Feb 23 23:21:59 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 23:21:59 -0600 Subject: MS-DOS 2.0 and "semi compatibles" In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A3380F@mail.catcorner.org> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A3380F@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <43FE97F7.9040703@oldskool.org> Kelly Leavitt wrote: > Time to dig up the WFW disks... I just dug up NCSA telnet yesterday, and the ftp server works great for receiving files sent to it. I'm testing an SSH port tonight (wonder how slow it will be on 8088 :-) and tomorrow I'm going to recompile an rsync port so that I can back up my work every night. I've seen the microsoft-provided "WFW4DOS" stuff but never installed it. Does it work well? Can I mount my DOS drive in WinXP and vice-versa? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From lproven at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 23:47:24 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 05:47:24 +0000 Subject: VAXstations in London In-Reply-To: <7400b3b354a24b7b9cc633de06286393@valleyimplants.com> References: <7400b3b354a24b7b9cc633de06286393@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <575131af0602232147m539a16as2ea02f41000534db@mail.gmail.com> On 2/23/06, compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > Not really, I don't find those caveats very limiting, and the VS3100/76 is a nice small lowish-power Rigel box (7.6 VUPs) that can be had cheaply. VS4000s are substantially more expensive, unless you can source them locally[...] They ought to be, given how much I was paying for the buggers 12-13yr ago. As in, several tens of thousands, sterling. > 3100/76s (of course-they're DEC) use proprietary RAM, but on a VAX 16 MB should be O.K., especially if you aren't running DECwindows. But it's a VAX*station*, not a VAX! The whole /point/ of having one would be a (preferably colour) display and DECwindows! Otherwise I'd just use an old MicroVAX - but apart from curiosity and wanting to play with VMS again, I have absolutely no use whatsoever for a text-mode terminal-based mini. At least I could use a VAXstation as an X terminal for something running a modern, Internet-capable OS... -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 24 00:06:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 22:06:24 -0800 Subject: MS-DOS 2.0 and "semi compatibles" In-Reply-To: <43FE97F7.9040703@oldskool.org> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A3380F@mail.catcorner.org> <43FE97F7.9040703@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200602232206240555.3646894C@10.0.0.252> On 2/23/2006 at 11:21 PM Jim Leonard wrote: >I've seen the microsoft-provided "WFW4DOS" stuff but never installed it. > Does it work well? Can I mount my DOS drive in WinXP and vice-versa? It's Microsoft Networks--if you've used the networking under Win95, it'll look familiar. Has anyone used the networking under Novell DR-DOS? Cheers, Chuck From josefcub at gmail.com Fri Feb 24 00:39:57 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 00:39:57 -0600 Subject: VAXstations in London In-Reply-To: <575131af0602232147m539a16as2ea02f41000534db@mail.gmail.com> References: <7400b3b354a24b7b9cc633de06286393@valleyimplants.com> <575131af0602232147m539a16as2ea02f41000534db@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920602232239p22967bdao18d414a8ed681e98@mail.gmail.com> On 2/23/06, Liam Proven wrote: > But it's a VAX*station*, not a VAX! The whole /point/ of having one > would be a (preferably colour) display and DECwindows! Otherwise I'd > just use an old MicroVAX - but apart from curiosity and wanting to > play with VMS again, I have absolutely no use whatsoever for a > text-mode terminal-based mini. At least I could use a VAXstation as an > X terminal for something running a modern, Internet-capable OS... While I understand the sentiment, I'd like to point out that my text-mode, terminal-based VAX (Headless VAXstation 3100 M38) runs a modern (1998), internet capable OS: OpenVMS v7.2. Granted, I'm stuck in text mode, but it handles basic internet connectivity like a champ, and X-based, native, Internet applications are available for it. :-) -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Feb 24 06:22:30 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 12:22:30 +0000 Subject: Squeal on Older Hard Drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43FEFA86.7000607@yahoo.co.uk> Billy Pettit wrote: > But ferrofludic seals were > excellent and the resistance could be controlled. They came in about the > time of the transition from 14 inch to 8 inch drives. So some 14 inch > drives didn't need a static discharge spring, but most did. I only saw one > 8 inch drive with a discharge spring. After that, the ferrofludic seal was > standard. ... although the spring seems to be the norm on 5.25" hard drives, presumably for cost reasons? > I would never ever bend a spring away from the spindle. Too many bad > experiences. The noise was a necessary pain. You can ease it by moving the > spring slightly, so a different part of the button is touching. All the > designs I know have oblong holes on the spring, so you can tweak the > adjustment. It's unfathomable to me why an OEM would tell its customers to > bend the spring away from the spindle. Hmm, unless on 5.25" drives they have both the spring and the magic seals for some reason - although I can't think why. If so though, maybe the advice about bending the spring only applies to 5.25" drives? I wonder why the squeal happens? Whether it's wear on the spring side or the spindle side? If the former, then a donor spring from a scrap unit could fix things. I also wonder if using graphite grease is a viable way of curing the problem - or if the grease just wouldn't last long enough or wouldn't provide a useful ground path... cheers Jules From lproven at gmail.com Fri Feb 24 09:30:09 2006 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 15:30:09 +0000 Subject: VAXstations in London In-Reply-To: <9e2403920602232239p22967bdao18d414a8ed681e98@mail.gmail.com> References: <7400b3b354a24b7b9cc633de06286393@valleyimplants.com> <575131af0602232147m539a16as2ea02f41000534db@mail.gmail.com> <9e2403920602232239p22967bdao18d414a8ed681e98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0602240730g7a1828fcq2e61067c6207044f@mail.gmail.com> On 2/24/06, Josef Chessor wrote: > On 2/23/06, Liam Proven wrote: > > > But it's a VAX*station*, not a VAX! The whole /point/ of having one > > would be a (preferably colour) display and DECwindows! Otherwise I'd > > just use an old MicroVAX - but apart from curiosity and wanting to > > play with VMS again, I have absolutely no use whatsoever for a > > text-mode terminal-based mini. At least I could use a VAXstation as an > > X terminal for something running a modern, Internet-capable OS... > > While I understand the sentiment, I'd like to point out that my > text-mode, terminal-based VAX (Headless VAXstation 3100 M38) runs a > modern (1998), internet capable OS: OpenVMS v7.2. Granted, I'm stuck > in text mode, but it handles basic internet connectivity like a champ, > and X-based, native, Internet applications are available for it. :-) Oh, I am sure, but I'm sorry, it's 2006 and I am not prepared to use a text-mode interface as my primary or only means of controlling a workstation in the 21st Century! A server, yes, fine. A workstation, a terminal, no. :?) -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 Gmail/Google Talk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 24 09:58:22 2006 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 10:58:22 -0500 Subject: CX065B (was Re: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry) In-Reply-To: <200602141846.01140.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <200602141846.01140.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <43FF2D1E.1010209@bellsouth.net> Hi Tony -- Well, I couldn't find the datasheet for this IC but I did locate a few of them if you need 'em (I deal in Japanese semiconductors for the consumer electronics repair trade). Glen 0/0 Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 14 February 2006 01:30 am, Tony Duell wrote: > >>>And if anybody is working on any Osborne, Kaypro, or C64 stuff feel free >>>to give a holler as I did quite a bit of that and have tech info >>>available if I >> >>I don;'t suppose you know anything about the Sony CX065B chip, do you? > > > That number doesn't ring any bells offhand. A quick search on the number > doesn't turn anything up. From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 24 10:04:04 2006 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 11:04:04 -0500 Subject: CX065B again (was Re: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43FF2E74.1020209@bellsouth.net> Tony -- After a little digging I found a datasheet for the NTE replacement for CX065B in PDF format. If you'd like I can email it to you or print it out and snail-mail it. Glen 0/0 Tony Duell wrote: > The Epson motor is very different to the Commodore one. Commodore used a > permanent magnet DC motor, the Epson drive uses a 4 phase motor with > electronic commutation (there are 2 hall sensors under the PCB). It's > just the speed controller chip that's the same/ > > >>Not offhand. The only time I ever really encountered any serious speed >>problems with those motors was when the tach winding opened up, and they'd > > > That problem I've got. I've taken the motor housing apart, and have tried > to repair the coil. Time will tell... > > >>run at full-speed with no regulation. I do have the manuals for the 1541 in >>the other room, and can take a look... > > > I have the ofifical Commodore manual, so if that's what you have there's > no need for you to look. > > >>I have had speed control chips fail on a small number of occasions, but don't >>recall whether this was one of the numbers or not. Usually if you're >>getting a good waveform off the tach winding and power to the chip, and no >>control coming out, that's the problem -- it's been either the motor or the > > > Sure... > > >>chip in those cases, not much else in there. > > > See above, the Epson motor is a lot more complicated. There's the chip > and 10 discrete transistors on the PCB. > > For interest I'd like to know exactly what the chip does (I am curious > like that...). I'd also like to know just what the 'other' preset on the > Epson board is for (not the one that sets the speed), it seems to balance > the 2 hall sensors or something like that. > > >>What sort of a problem are you having? > > > Initially an open FG coil, let's hope I can get that right... > > -tony > From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Feb 24 11:13:01 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 09:13:01 -0800 Subject: MEM11A boards Message-ID: <1140801181.7162.52.camel@linux.site> UPS *just* dropped off the package containing the prototype fabs for the MEM11A memory boards. They look great! I'm hoping to get some time this weekend to populate one and test it out (actually it'll be more like put in a few components, do some checks, "wash, rinse, repeat" until I've got it all populated and working). I'll let y'all know how it goes. -- TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Feb 24 11:21:47 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 09:21:47 -0800 Subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1140801707.7162.61.camel@linux.site> Now that the MEM11A boards are back, I'll be getting a bit bolder in doing board projects. The "Unibus Analyzer" board will probably go out next week for prototypes (layout is all done, just contemplating if I should make one change). I've also pretty much blocked out a blinken lights & switches project for non-blinken lights unibus 11's. Now the problem will be can I get it all to fit. It's a two board solution: SPC card "in the box" and the actual switches & lights mounted somewhere outside. At this point it looks like it'll have all of the functions of a "standard" blinken lights panel. It'll even be able to do 22 bit addressing (through "magic"). :-) The only question is that since it'll be doing some non-standard stuff (not violations of unibus, just things not normally done) I have to test out a few things to see if what I'm thinking actually works. -- TTFN - Guy From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Feb 24 11:58:26 2006 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight Elvey) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 09:58:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: TI and firsts Message-ID: <200602241758.JAA29254@ca2h0430.amd.com> Hi How foes Fairchild fit into this. It is true that the F8 was a two chip setup but then no more then the 4004 was a single chip processor. The ROM and RAM devices on the 4004 buss watched the instruction stream and did things based on the instruction. Where does that fit in with TI? Dwight >From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com > >I've seen the Ray Holt thing before but wasn't >familiar with Gilbert Hyatt. So it appears that at >the time, TI took on Intel and won the claim, at that >time, to the title of creator of the microprocessor. >Explains their statement now. > >--- 'Computer Collector Newsletter' > wrote: > >> And then there's Ray Holt: >> http://www.microcomputerhistory.com/ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of William Maddox >> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 10:31 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: TI and firsts >> >> --- nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com wrote: >> >> > "Texas Instruments invented the integrated >> circuit, the >> > microprocessor, and the microcomputer. Being first >> is our tradition." >> > >> > The microprocessor? Anyone know what they use to >> make that claim? >> >> Google for "Gilbert Hyatt microprocessor" >> >> >> > >David Williams >http://www.trailingedge.com > > From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Fri Feb 24 12:07:27 2006 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 13:07:27 -0500 Subject: Kaypro 10 Western Digital Hard Disk Controller WD 1002-HD0 In-Reply-To: <000501c6331c$2feb52d0$0300000a@AMD> References: <000501c6331c$2feb52d0$0300000a@AMD> Message-ID: <43FF4B5F.30506@bellsouth.net> Good luck! I think I have every bit of documentation Kaypro ever produced (including internal-only docs) and there appears to be NO schematic of the disk controller board. If someone can prove me wrong, I could use that schematic as well . . . Glen 0/0 j.e. van der Geest wrote: > Any schematic available for the WD 1002-HD0 > Need them badly > Jos > From CCTalk at catcorner.org Fri Feb 24 12:19:53 2006 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 13:19:53 -0500 Subject: Kaypro 10 Western Digital Hard Disk Controller WD 1002-HD0 Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A33812@mail.catcorner.org> I have the manual here somewhere. I also found it online at bitsavers I think. If I don't get back to you in a couple of days, send me a reminder. I doesn't include the scematic, just a block function diagram. > ---------- > From: Glen Goodwin > Reply To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 1:07 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Kaypro 10 Western Digital Hard Disk Controller WD > 1002-HD0 > > Good luck! I think I have every bit of documentation > Kaypro ever produced (including internal-only docs) > and there appears to be NO schematic of the disk controller > board. > > If someone can prove me wrong, I could use that > schematic as well . . . > > Glen > 0/0 > > j.e. van der Geest wrote: > > Any schematic available for the WD 1002-HD0 > > Need them badly > > Jos > > > From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Feb 24 12:40:39 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 10:40:39 -0800 Subject: Squeal on Older Hard Drives Message-ID: Jules Richardson wrote: > ... although the spring seems to be the norm on 5.25" hard drives, presumably > for cost reasons? I can't answer that. None of the 5.25' drives I worked on had a spring. You are probably right; the spring is way under a dollar, while the ferro seals were several dollars each. >> I would never ever bend a spring away from the spindle. Too many bad >> experiences. The noise was a necessary pain. You can ease it by moving the >> spring slightly, so a different part of the button is touching. All the >> designs I know have oblong holes on the spring, so you can tweak the >> adjustment. It's unfathomable to me why an OEM would tell its customers to >> bend the spring away from the spindle. >Hmm, unless on 5.25" drives they have both the spring and the magic seals for >some reason - although I can't think why. If so though, maybe the advice about >bending the spring only applies to 5.25" drives? Can't answer 'cause again, I have never seen such a drive. But I find it very hard to believe that a drive manufacturer would design in the static discharge spring and then recommend it be disabled. Margins on disk drives are minuscule. Every item that can be cut, is. I know of entire teams working on 2 and 3 cent cost reductions. To add an unnecessary part costing a dollar is madness. I have changed dozens of heads and preamps blown by worn springs. So I'm a believer. I admit it. I've too many bad memories of loose or worn static springs destroying electronics. And, by the way, the discharge through the head creates an intense magnetic field and usually erases a chunk of data on the disk. It's a real nasty gotcha. I've worked daily with hard disk design since 1976, and static is one of the biggest nightmares in this world. It gets worse with time. Moving to the first MR heads, involved revamping the entire factory, eliminating any potential charge over 100 volts. GMR took that down to sub-10 volt. Now, with TunnelingMR and Perpendicular heads, the level goes down again. We are working with flying heights smaller than the wave length of visible light. So it doesn't take much of a charge to bridge the gap. And static also has some very exotic effects on magnetic domains in a modern head; a whole new industry has grown around suppressing static electricity in disk drive production. The older drives you are talking about don't share this new type of weirdness. But static was always a major problem because of the disk ripping through the air. Static is a natural consequence of the technology. >I wonder why the squeal happens? Whether it's wear on the spring side or the >spindle side? If the former, then a donor spring from a scrap unit could fix >things. The springs are designed to wear, albeit slowly. You do not want any wear on the spindle. And it is normally a very hard stainless steel. The button on the spring is usually an ablative type of material so it will wear before the spindle. The squeal comes from uneven wear creating vibration. The same as the squeal from worn brakes on your car. The frequency is usually determined by the length of the spring and its tension. >I also wonder if using graphite grease is a viable way of curing the problem - > or if the grease just wouldn't last long enough or wouldn't provide a useful >ground path... Graphite was tried. And various type of grease. But you are dealing with a constantly spinning piece of metal. It usually sloughs off any lubricant quickly. And that creates a new problem of introducing contaminants all over the base of a drive. Eventually, some of them make it back through the breather filters or the bearings. And yes, the static spring had the same problem, though to a lesser degree. It was not the ideal solution by any means and was eliminated as quickly as possible. Billy >cheers >Jules From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Feb 24 13:20:54 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 19:20:54 -0000 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005601c63977$6fd43ef0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Tony Duell wrote: > What is it with German sellers? It appears that very few of them take > Paypal. I think within the Euro zone IBAN (inter-bank) transfers are popular. They work from Europe-to-UK and back too. It seems that one of the Euro regs requires that any Euro-zone bank charge the same fixed amount for all IBAN transfers to/from an account with another (or the same) Euro-zone bank. So within the Euro-zone all IBAN transfers are (it seems) free. The UK is not within the Euro zone so I have to tell potential purchasers that, while I'm happy to accept an IBAN transfer there will be an additional fee of ?10 or so. So I presume that German sellers are used to free transfers and may not realise that it is going to cost you an arm and most of a leg to pay them via IBAN. Cash in the post usually works :-) Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 24 13:37:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 12:37:44 -0700 Subject: "my books" web site? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:56:30 -0700. Message-ID: A coworker found this. Its in beta, but its just what I was looking for! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Feb 24 13:51:42 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 14:51:42 -0500 Subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 22 Feb 2006 22:46:09 PST." <43FD5A31.6040108@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200602241951.k1OJpgdg014288@mwave.heeltoe.com> Don North wrote: > >The only problem with SPC slots is they are 18b UNIBUS only. This will >work on 256KB 18b machines, but is a sticky problem on 4MB 22b machines, >since you need to go thru the UNIBUS map to get to all of memory. > >For an 11/44, you could do just a dual slot card that goes in a memory >slot (which has 22b address available) and an SPC slot (to get the DMA >lines) but this would be a hex card. To read/write memory, you would >need to be a 22b DMA device, which I'm not sure the 11/44 can handle >(ie, the CPU may always drive the upper 4 address lines and not provide >for 22b DMA device). It may work, it may not. Certainly not what DEC >designed for. You scared me there for a second. There are no 22 bit unibus dma devices, right? only 18 address bits on unibus, right? even on an 11/44, right? [sorry I'm behind - I was out of town] -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Feb 24 14:06:15 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 15:06:15 -0500 Subject: TI and firsts In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 23 Feb 2006 18:01:02 PST." <20060224020102.74397.qmail@web81007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200602242006.k1OK6FJn018718@mwave.heeltoe.com> nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com wrote: ... > >"Texas Instruments invented the integrated circuit, >the microprocessor, and the microcomputer. Being first >is our tradition." > >The microprocessor? Anyone know what they use to make >that claim? "TI filed for the patent on the microprocessor. Gary Boone was awarded U.S. Patent 3,757,306 for the single-chip microprocessor architecture on September 4, 1973" Gary claims he was first (I once worked with him). He's an honest guy - I have no reason to doubt him. He worked on a lot of watches and calculators also. -brad From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Feb 24 14:26:09 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 12:26:09 -0800 Subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel In-Reply-To: <200602241951.k1OJpgdg014288@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200602241951.k1OJpgdg014288@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <43FF6BE1.3080309@mindspring.com> Brad Parker wrote: > Don North wrote: > >> The only problem with SPC slots is they are 18b UNIBUS only. This will >> work on 256KB 18b machines, but is a sticky problem on 4MB 22b machines, >> since you need to go thru the UNIBUS map to get to all of memory. >> >> For an 11/44, you could do just a dual slot card that goes in a memory >> slot (which has 22b address available) and an SPC slot (to get the DMA >> lines) but this would be a hex card. To read/write memory, you would >> need to be a 22b DMA device, which I'm not sure the 11/44 can handle >> (ie, the CPU may always drive the upper 4 address lines and not provide >> for 22b DMA device). It may work, it may not. Certainly not what DEC >> designed for. >> > > You scared me there for a second. There are no 22 bit unibus dma > devices, right? only 18 address bits on unibus, right? even on an > 11/44, right? > That is correct UNIBUS I/O is 18b only, even on all the VAXes that used UNIBUS. There is no such thing as 22b UNIBUS DMA; sorry to give that impression. I was just thinking out loud :-) Besides UNIBUS proper (ie, the cable, or the in/out slots of a UNIBUS backplane) systems also implemented SPC slots (UNIBUS + other stuff) but these are 18b only as well. There are also MUD (Modified UNIBUS Device) slots which are typically used by non-DMA memory cards. These are only 18b as well. For 22b memory support, the 11/44 (and 11/24 iirc) implemented four EUD (Extended UNIBUS Device) slots that are specific for memory cards only (ie, the MS11-PB 1MB memory card). These provide the extra 4b from the UNIBUS map to allow a full 22b physcial memory address. QBUS was originally 18b only as well, but was extended to Q22 to solve this problem in a much more reasonable way (the UNIBUS map was/is a big hack, but probably the only reasonable approach given the number of preexisting 18b interfaces at the time of the 11/70s design). If Guy really can implement a 22b examine/deposit physical memory in a pure SPC slot kudos to him. The only way I can think of possibly doing it (thinking out loud again :-) ) is to steal a UNIBUS map entry and on each exam/deposit set it up correctly to map the 18b unibus address to the desired 22b address. I don't recall if the UNIBUS map is accessible from the UNIBUS itself (if it is, this could work; if not, then it won't). From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Feb 24 15:11:25 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 16:11:25 -0500 Subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 24 Feb 2006 12:26:09 PST." <43FF6BE1.3080309@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <200602242111.k1OLBQlP028793@mwave.heeltoe.com> Don North wrote: ... > >If Guy really can implement a 22b examine/deposit physical memory in a >pure SPC slot kudos to him. The only way I can think of possibly doing >it (thinking out loud again :-) ) is to steal a UNIBUS map entry and on >each exam/deposit set it up correctly to map the 18b unibus address to >the desired 22b address. I don't recall if the UNIBUS map is accessible >from the UNIBUS itself (if it is, this could work; if not, then it won't). If it's accessible from the unibus you don't have to steal it - you could just "barrow" the entry for a moment. I'd smile to see a PIC running bus master cycles, however :-) Me? I'm using an ARM :-) -brad From kth at srv.net Fri Feb 24 16:42:34 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 15:42:34 -0700 Subject: DS200 Message-ID: <43FF8BDA.1020806@srv.net> Anyone have schematics of the power supply for a DecServer 200? Have a dead one, and before I start poking around, I'd like some kind of reference for it. Definately in the PS, fans not running, and swapping in a good PS from another broken unit makes it work. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Feb 24 17:11:37 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 15:11:37 -0800 Subject: DS200 In-Reply-To: <43FF8BDA.1020806@srv.net> References: <43FF8BDA.1020806@srv.net> Message-ID: At 3:42 PM -0700 2/24/06, Kevin Handy wrote: >Anyone have schematics of the power supply for a DecServer 200? >Have a dead one, and before I start poking around, I'd like some kind >of reference for it. Definately in the PS, fans not running, and >swapping in a good PS from another broken unit makes it work. There used to be a set of 3 MDS CD's available online in a couple of different locations, is this still the case? If so there is a chance it's there. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 24 17:56:22 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 23:56:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fischertechnik Interface / Documentation? In-Reply-To: from "Gary Sparkes" at Feb 24, 6 00:14:10 am Message-ID: > Though there's a nifty adapter board to plug it into an Apple 2's joystick > port. I am suprised you have enough signals on the Apple ][ games port, but maybe you do... > I don't think the interface itself actually had any LEDs, and there's a The BBC one certainly does. > diagram showing pinout for the motor control lines on the top of the case. > There's also several lines that you can attatch switches to, we've gota > paddle with paperclips on it :) This interface was designed to work with the origianal Fischertechnik robotics kit. This kit contained 2 minimotors (small DC permanent magnet motors), an electromagnet, 3 lamps, 8 pushbutton switches, and 2 pots, along with the standard mechanical parts. It was conentional to wire a lamp in parallel with any motor or electromagnet you were using in the model. Or you could use the lamps separately (the first model was just a set of traffic lights using the 3 lamps). You could use the swtiches either as user input buttons or as limit switches, etc for parts of the model. > > 5 fischertechnik sockets. One is logic ground (marked with an upside-down > > T). The otehr 2 are 2 pairs for power supply inputs. They were designed > > to link to a fishcertechnik transformer, you need a DC supply of 7-10V. > > It's used directly to power the motors, rgulated down to 5V for the > > logic. You only need to use one set (particularly if you have a nice > > bench supply...), and there are internal protection diodes if you connect > > the supply backwards. > > > > So I won't blow it if I make a mistake? Well, not unless you do soemthinve very silly like connect the mains to those sockets!. More seriously, the -ve supply sockets are both linked to logic ground (which is also the computer ground). The +ve sockets to to the anodes of 2 diodes, the cathodes of which are linked toghether. This provides the motor supply voltage, it also feeds a 7805 for the logic circuitry. Those diodes will protect the interface against revese voltage. I'd grab a 9V bunch supply (or something similar) and link it to one set of power sockets. > We've got all that, I'm looking more for programming guidelines, as we've > got next to nothing in documentation (Perhaps one apple 2 doc for > interfacing with it, and I'd like to use my portfolio to control it, > somehow.) I suspect this is differnt, but not very, on the BBC version. It is not hard to trace out the schematics (give a 4000-series databook :-)). That would tell you what the signals from the computer do. The driver, at least for the C64 and BBC version, was a machine code program. I think you got a binary program for the C64 that you called with SYS. The BBC version was written in assembler (the BBC BASIC interpreter includes an assembler). It's not commented, but it's fairly easy to follow (even for a non-programmer like me). Of course it makes use of the 6522 VIA chip in the Beeb (and it talks to it correctly, via an OSBYTE call, so you can run it on the 65C02 second processor). > > I've got several tons of GWBASIC files from a four floppy disk set, and I'm > going to tear those apart soon. I wonder if any of those are equivalent to the ones on the BBC disk. Comparing them might be interesting... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 24 18:01:25 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 00:01:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Squeal on Older Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <43FEFA86.7000607@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 24, 6 12:22:30 pm Message-ID: > I wonder why the squeal happens? Whether it's wear on the spring side or the > spindle side? If the former, then a donor spring from a scrap unit could fix > things. I would be suprised if the spindle wears, they're normally pretty hard. Often the spring was a replaceable part in the boardswapper guide for the drives, and I think replacing it might well cure the noise. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 24 17:38:48 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 23:38:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Squeal on Older Hard Drives In-Reply-To: from "Billy Pettit" at Feb 23, 6 07:53:34 pm Message-ID: > It was a lot more serious than mere read errors. The static charge on = > the > surface of the disks could build up to thousands of volts in just = > seconds. > And its main discharge path was through the heads - they were the = > closest to > the charge. I changed many a head on the early 14 inch drives that had = > a > clean little burn hole right through the flying surface. Ouch!. I am suprised there was enough energy stored to do that. > > The static discharge springs had a metal button that fit on the end of = > the > spindle shaft. It was metal to metal so there was always some wear. If Some of the ones I've seen seem to have a graphite composition (a bit like the material used for motor brushes) button on them to make contact with the spindle. Makes sense, you don't need a very low resistance path to ground. > Very quickly, other schemes can into use that alleviated the need for = > the > discharge spring. The most practical was a ferrofludic seal on the top = > of > the bearings. The design goal was a path of around 10K ohm to ground. = I thought that all winchesters with the motor outside the HDA had ferofluid seals, if only beacuse that was the only practical way to prevent dust coming into the HDA round the spindle. But some of those drives still have the earting contact. > 8 inch drive with a discharge spring. After that, the ferrofludic seal = > was > standard. They were common on older 5.25" drives (heck, I think I've seen a SCSI-interfaced drive with one.) One other thing bothers me. At least one of my drives has the earthing contact on the PCB, but that PCB is hinged to the chassis at one end, and is designed to be swung away from the chassis for maintenance (so you can get a probe on the testpoints). In that position, of course, the brush does not contact the spindle. Did the manufacturers just hope there wouldn't be a discharge when you were doing tests, or what? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 24 18:19:32 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 00:19:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CX065B (was Re: Osborne Executive CRT circuitry) In-Reply-To: <43FF2D1E.1010209@bellsouth.net> from "Glen Goodwin" at Feb 24, 6 10:58:22 am Message-ID: > > Hi Tony -- > > Well, I couldn't find the datasheet for this IC > but I did locate a few of them if you need 'em > (I deal in Japanese semiconductors for the consumer > electronics repair trade). Well, I finally got the thing to work (based mostly on the info in the SAMS book on the 1541 [1]) And it was quite a job. [1] I bought this in a second-hand bookshop in Bristol over 10 years ago. I am not much of a Commodore person, but I always buy old computer books that contain schematics... Anyway, back to the Epson disk drive story. The drive I'm working on is an SD320, used in the TF20 drive unit for the HX20/PX8/PX4 laptops. If you want to follow along, I think the techncial manual for the QX10 is on the web somewhere. This machine uses SD321 drives. The difference is that the SD320 ahs a head load solenoid, the SD321 doesn't. Otherwise they are almost identical (the positioner, spidle motor, and most of the mechnaical parts are the same. There are small differences on the main PCB (as to which components are fitted), but it's the same board, same ASICs, etc. So the scheamtic of the spindle motor in the QX10 manual will help. OK, it's a farily simple design. There's a 4 pole stator with a rotor around it. The inside of the rotor has a pair of permanent magnets on it. These are pulled round by the stator coils, they also trigger a pair of hall sensors on the PCB, which control transistors that drive the windings. Inside the housing, on top of the rotor, is the FG (frequency generator) coil. This produces an AC signal, the frequency of which depends on the speed of the motr. This is fed to the CX065B chip, the output of that controls the motor drive amplifier. If the motor is running too slowly, the output voltage of the CX065B increases, making the amplifier drive the coils harder. So far so good. Anyway, I had the motor out of the drive (I needed to clean the old greae off the eject linkages...). I was pretty sure I knew how it was used. so I linked up the 3 pins on the connector to a 12V bench supply (motor enable anf ground to -ve, 12v to +ve). The result was that the motor started, ran for a few seconds, and stopped. OK, I thought, a faulty motor. So I tried the one in the other drive. It did the same thing. I even pulled a drive from my 'spare' QX10 and tried the motor from that. It did the same thing. So I thohght that perhaps the enable line wasn't just a DC voltage -- ground to enable. Maybe it was some kind of clock input.. So I put a drive back together, cabled it up to a drive exerciser, and tried again. You guessed it, motor runs for a few seconds and stops. And the signal on the enable pin is just a DC voltage, it's pulled to ground when the motor should be running. So I investigated the motor further. And discover the transistor Q23 on the schematic. Its purpose is to stop the motor if the output from the CX065B rises too high. It'll do that if either the FG signal is missing (so the CX065B thinks the motor isn't turning at all), or if the motor is overloaded, so the CX065B has to drive it harder. The only prroblem is that if the bearings get a bit stiff, this circuit triggers too easily. Replaceing the bearings is a right pain (I know _how_ to do it, but you almost always damage the FG coil and have to unwind at least one turn and then reassemble that part, etc). There's an ARD-unofficial-kludge, though. There's a 75k (100k on some drives) resistor on the motor PCB, near to the connector and at right angles to it. Reduce that a bit (68k, 56k). This makes the protection circuit a bit harder to trigger (but it will still trigger if the motor is stalled). Moral : If 3 identical old computer parts appear to malfunction in the same way, they might all be faulty! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 24 18:21:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 00:21:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Kaypro 10 Western Digital Hard Disk Controller WD 1002-HD0 In-Reply-To: <43FF4B5F.30506@bellsouth.net> from "Glen Goodwin" at Feb 24, 6 01:07:27 pm Message-ID: > > Good luck! I think I have every bit of documentation > Kaypro ever produced (including internal-only docs) > and there appears to be NO schematic of the disk controller > board. How complicated is it? Since you know the pinouts of the external connectors (don't you?), I would guess you could draw out a schematic in a few afternnons. Probably take less time to do that that to find an original.... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 24 19:09:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 17:09:45 -0800 Subject: Kaypro 10 Western Digital Hard Disk Controller WD 1002-HD0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602241709450530.3A5D4E79@10.0.0.252> On 2/25/2006 at 12:21 AM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >How complicated is it? Since you know the pinouts of the external >connectors (don't you?), I would guess you could draw out a schematic in >a few afternnons. Probably take less time to do that that to find an >original.... IIRC, the WD-1002-HD0 is the same controller as the WD-1002-05, except that it doesn't have the floppy support. I think Herb Johnson sells a manual for one on his retrotechnology.com site, but I also haven't checked bitsavers. Cheers, Chuck From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Feb 24 23:44:32 2006 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 00:44:32 -0500 Subject: Fischertechnik Interface / Documentation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 2/24/06 6:56 PM, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> We've got all that, I'm looking more for programming guidelines, as we've >> got next to nothing in documentation (Perhaps one apple 2 doc for >> interfacing with it, and I'd like to use my portfolio to control it, >> somehow.) > > I suspect this is differnt, but not very, on the BBC version. > > It is not hard to trace out the schematics (give a 4000-series databook > :-)). That would tell you what the signals from the computer do. > > The driver, at least for the C64 and BBC version, was a machine code > program. I think you got a binary program for the C64 that you called > with SYS. The BBC version was written in assembler (the BBC BASIC > interpreter includes an assembler). It's not commented, but it's fairly > easy to follow (even for a non-programmer like me). Of course it makes > use of the 6522 VIA chip in the Beeb (and it talks to it correctly, via > an OSBYTE call, so you can run it on the 65C02 second processor). I also have several .COM files for a PC/XT I'm going to tear apart tonight that apparently came with it (along with the basic files) >> >> I've got several tons of GWBASIC files from a four floppy disk set, and I'm >> going to tear those apart soon. > > I wonder if any of those are equivalent to the ones on the BBC disk. > Comparing them might be interesting... > > -tony I'll zip up a copy and put it somewhere, if you wish From news at computercollector.com Sat Feb 25 03:19:47 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 04:19:47 -0500 Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor Message-ID: <001401c639ec$9fda5970$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Advertisement # 5869045519 The title is "1st Palm Computer" ... the item is a Psion Organiser II. I understand that no one will dig like I have about the history of handhelds ... but geez, the only research this doofus had to do is to read the big letters on the cover of the instruction manual ... Where it says "II" as in "not the first." :) I kindly pointed this out in a message to the seller (sans the "doofus" part.) The seller's reply tonight was "Get a life!!" Darwin must've missed that house. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From news at computercollector.com Sat Feb 25 03:37:10 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 04:37:10 -0500 Subject: Teletype 31? Message-ID: <001601c639ef$0d720120$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Searched and searched, but couldn't find any information / photos. Can anyone help? ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: >> http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: >> http://www.marchclub.org >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From CPUMECH at aol.com Sat Feb 25 07:39:30 2006 From: CPUMECH at aol.com (CPUMECH at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 08:39:30 EST Subject: Teletype 31? Message-ID: <23a.7896c38.3131b812@aol.com> Heard of a 28, 23, 33, but no 31. From allain at panix.com Sat Feb 25 08:49:56 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 09:49:56 -0500 Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor References: <001401c639ec$9fda5970$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <006501c63a1a$bf60f140$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > I kindly pointed this out in a message to the seller (sans the "doofus" > part.) The seller's reply tonight was "Get a life!!" I think when you've lived 10 more years you'll see his point. John A. From news at computercollector.com Sat Feb 25 08:58:50 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 09:58:50 -0500 Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor In-Reply-To: <006501c63a1a$bf60f140$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <001b01c63a1b$fd0a0c60$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> See off-list reply. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Allain Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 9:50 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Stupid eBay user du jor > I kindly pointed this out in a message to the seller (sans the "doofus" > part.) The seller's reply tonight was "Get a life!!" I think when you've lived 10 more years you'll see his point. John A. From allain at panix.com Sat Feb 25 09:12:54 2006 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:12:54 -0500 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay References: Message-ID: <009401c63a1d$f47356e0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> > it does not > take a rocket scientist to do things like cook an egg, do simple tax > returns, appreciate some fine art, or even date a girl/boy - but computer > nerds tend to crash and burn on any and all of these tasks. We are idiots, > just in a different light. I should just let this stand on it's own as a really great statement. Don't listers realize that any eBay thread gets tiresome after it reaches the 20 replies mark? Just glance at it, smile and move on. John A. comment still valid days later From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Feb 25 09:52:54 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:52:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Teletype 31? In-Reply-To: <23a.7896c38.3131b812@aol.com> Message-ID: > Heard of a 28, 23, 33, but no 31. Apparently it is a very rare machine. I was at a buddy's place the other day, and asked about the "skipped" model numbers and oddball Teletypes. Sure enough, it was like putting a quarter in the slot, and I got the full story, complete with show and tell. I will see if I can get him to send a photo. And someone explain the 5 level/8 level joke to Mr. Newsletter. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From news at computercollector.com Sat Feb 25 10:00:19 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 11:00:19 -0500 Subject: Teletype 31? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002101c63a24$940f4460$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>> And someone explain the 5 level/8 level joke to Mr. Newsletter. Ouch .... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 10:53 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Teletype 31? > Heard of a 28, 23, 33, but no 31. Apparently it is a very rare machine. I was at a buddy's place the other day, and asked about the "skipped" model numbers and oddball Teletypes. Sure enough, it was like putting a quarter in the slot, and I got the full story, complete with show and tell. I will see if I can get him to send a photo. And someone explain the 5 level/8 level joke to Mr. Newsletter. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Feb 25 11:09:54 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:09:54 -0500 Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor In-Reply-To: <001b01c63a1b$fd0a0c60$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001b01c63a1b$fd0a0c60$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <20060225170954.F0393BA4891@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" wrote: > See off-list reply. ??? I know you wear your heart on your sleeve with regards to your interests (and I know that I've stepped on your toes before), but please get a grip. WE ALL KNOW WE'RE DWEEBS WHO COLLECT/ARE INTERESTED IN OLD COMPUTERS. We make fun of ourselves for this all the time. We really have to maintain our sense of perspective and it helps to do this. Or is a sense of perspective the last thing we need? :-). Tim. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Feb 25 11:21:09 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 09:21:09 -0800 Subject: terminals guides on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602250921090640.480E5606@192.168.42.129> Hi, Richard, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 22-Feb-06 at 15:28 Richard wrote: >Hi, > >I've been creating 'guides' on ebay for various terminals. I'd >apprecaite any feedback you might have. Please understand that the >manufacturer guides are "works in progress". Its pretty limiting to >have only 10 pictures per guide... >Beehive Serial Terminals > I used to install Beehive terminals when I was with Western Union. In fact, I clearly remember installing a couple for UC Berkeley's Division of Library Automation, and a couple more at CSU Hayward. They were quite popular with OCLC (Ohio College Library Catalog), an organization that, apparently, had a deep impression on the formation of the first end-user friendly computer-based library catalogs. And yes, they did have frequent failures. One of the more common was to lose the high voltage section to arcing. I didn't know about these 'guides' until you posted. Neat idea! Methinks I need to write a few. Thanks for the effort. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sat Feb 25 11:34:07 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 09:34:07 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <200602212044570951.2BAF42E5@10.0.0.252> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> <01ac01c63760$fab9b360$6700a8c0@vrs> <200602212044570951.2BAF42E5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 2/21/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > One could, I suppose, define a 64K page > size and fill the descriptor table with entries and so, in theory, have a > virtual memory size of half a gig. But you'd have to tread selector > arithmetic something awful. > > AFAIK, no OS ever did this on the 286. OS/2 1.X definitely does segment swapping with support for logically adjacent segments, as do some 286 DOS extenders. The selector math isn't that difficult (to get the next segment you add 8). Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 25 12:50:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 10:50:37 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> <01ac01c63760$fab9b360$6700a8c0@vrs> <200602212044570951.2BAF42E5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200602251050370258.3E288815@10.0.0.252> On 2/25/2006 at 9:34 AM Eric J Korpela wrote: >OS/2 1.X definitely does segment swapping with support for logically >adjacent segments, as do some 286 DOS extenders. The selector math >isn't that difficult (to get the next segment you add 8). ...and Windows also allowed this for large memory allocations, though it was held in the realm of "undocumented". I know of no 286 OS that used sequentially-numbered selectors to divide up the whole memory space into uniform 64K segments, a la "real" paging. IOW, you couldn't simply take any arbitrary address and compute the selector for a new address from it without knowing the value of the selector for some other address. Cheers, Chuck From news at computercollector.com Sat Feb 25 13:30:13 2006 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 11:30:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Found what I need / re: Teletype 31 Message-ID: <20060225193013.16774.qmail@web31804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Okay, found what I need thanks to the Greenkeys list. :) If anyone else cares: http://www.baudot.net/gil/tty-machines/M31-KSR.htm http://www.baudot.net/teletype/M31.htm As for eBay and stuff: everyone quit giving me shit please. I just thought it was funny that something was clearly labeled "II" and the seller posted it as "first". So lay off. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 25 14:07:24 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 20:07:24 +0000 Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor In-Reply-To: <20060225170954.F0393BA4891@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <001b01c63a1b$fd0a0c60$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <20060225170954.F0393BA4891@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4400B8FC.7050302@yahoo.co.uk> Tim Shoppa wrote: > "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" wrote: >> See off-list reply. > > ??? > > I know you wear your heart on your sleeve with regards to your > interests (and I know that I've stepped on your toes before), but > please get a grip. > > WE ALL KNOW WE'RE DWEEBS WHO COLLECT/ARE INTERESTED IN OLD COMPUTERS. > > We make fun of ourselves for this all the time. We really > have to maintain our sense of perspective and it helps to do this. Actually, I'm with Evan on this one... To me it's not about being geeky, it's about maintaining a few rudimentary standards and doing some *very basic* research before selling something. Doesn't seem like too much to ask or expect of a seller, and is irrespective of whatever it is that's being sold. cheers Jules From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Feb 25 14:44:03 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 14:44:03 -0600 Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor In-Reply-To: <4400B8FC.7050302@yahoo.co.uk> References: <001b01c63a1b$fd0a0c60$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <20060225170954.F0393BA4891@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4400B8FC.7050302@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4400C193.7080606@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > To me it's not about being geeky, it's about maintaining a few > rudimentary standards and doing some *very basic* research before > selling something. Doesn't seem like too much to ask or expect of a > seller, and is irrespective of whatever it is that's being sold. Even if the seller is not a collector and knows nothing about what he's selling? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Feb 25 14:46:00 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 15:46:00 -0500 Subject: Squeal on Older Hard Drives In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 25 Feb 2006 00:01:25 GMT." Message-ID: <200602252046.k1PKk0Zn020878@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> I wonder why the squeal happens? Whether it's wear on the spring side or the > >> spindle side? If the former, then a donor spring from a scrap unit could fix > >> things. > >I would be suprised if the spindle wears, they're normally pretty hard. >Often the spring was a replaceable part in the boardswapper guide for the >drives, and I think replacing it might well cure the noise. One fix, "back in the day" was to glue a piece of blue teflon material onto the backside of the spring. I'm not an ME but I'm guessing this changed the natural freq at which it would oscillate. I don't know what the material was (other than "teflon"), but I seem to recall at least one mfg did this. some of those memories are a bit dim :-) -brad From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Feb 25 14:47:15 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 12:47:15 -0800 Subject: copying of data from history site to ebay for auction description In-Reply-To: <4400B8FC.7050302@yahoo.co.uk> References: <001b01c63a1b$fd0a0c60$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <20060225170954.F0393BA4891@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4400B8FC.7050302@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4400C253.1050603@msm.umr.edu> here's the latest example on a Univac example. Sadly, the slide set looks to be interesting, and I may bid on it. I don't like that he copied George Gray's Univac History site verbatim, though at least the ripoff was not in the form of a link to George's site that would have stolen his bandwidth too. 8768974367 Jim From news at computercollector.com Sat Feb 25 15:01:10 2006 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 13:01:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor In-Reply-To: <4400C193.7080606@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20060225210110.78200.qmail@web31810.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In this particular case, as I said, the instruction manual (which the seller has a very clear photo of in the posting!) says in big, bold letters right at the top center -- "ORGANISER II" -- so even if someone knows ZILCH about computers, how much brainpower would it take to get the epiphany that anything called "II" isn't the first model? I agree that it's pointless for us all to snicker internally about obscure technical details when the seller probably has no way or reason to know such things. But in this case I really think it can't possibly get any more obvious. An example of more basic research: my other hobby is the cult following of Mazda Miata sports cars. In our clubs, we all know that no Miata ever built before 2006 had a tilt steering wheel (unless it's been in a VERY horrific accident!) Yet in almost every ad on every car site, the individual sellers and dealers automatically check off "tilt wheel" because they just figure it's a standard option on modern cars. How much effort would it take to GO LOOK and realize it's not there? >>> Even if the seller is not a collector and knows nothing about what he's selling? --- Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > To me it's not about being geeky, it's about maintaining a few > > rudimentary standards and doing some *very basic* research before > > selling something. Doesn't seem like too much to ask or expect of a > > seller, and is irrespective of whatever it is that's being sold. > > Even if the seller is not a collector and knows nothing about what he's > selling? > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Feb 25 15:05:30 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 15:05:30 -0600 Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor In-Reply-To: <4400C193.7080606@oldskool.org> References: <001b01c63a1b$fd0a0c60$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <20060225170954.F0393BA4891@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4400B8FC.7050302@yahoo.co.uk> <4400C193.7080606@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4400C69A.2070700@mdrconsult.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> To me it's not about being geeky, it's about maintaining a few >> rudimentary standards and doing some *very basic* research before >> selling something. Doesn't seem like too much to ask or expect of a >> seller, and is irrespective of whatever it is that's being sold. > > > Even if the seller is not a collector and knows nothing about what he's > selling? Absolutely. There's a very simple distinction here, at least in my own mind. This seller didn't fail to provide information because he/she neglected to do research. The seller made an active claim without verifying the facts, and it just happened to be patently ridiculous. The first is entirely reasonable, but to me the second is a violation of ethics. Doc From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sat Feb 25 15:48:02 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 13:48:02 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <20060222191442.9251273029@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <200602212245390162.2C1DBFBF@10.0.0.252> <20060222191442.9251273029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: On 2/22/06, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > Also, on the 8086, sequential segments were 16 bytes apart and many > programs relied upon this behavior. I know that OS/2 included support for > sequential selectors but one had to call a function to get the offset > between each selector. Not that I used such functions---just that I recall > seeing them in the documentation. There was a function called DosGetHugeShift(). The segment increment was (1< from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 24, 6 05:09:45 pm Message-ID: > IIRC, the WD-1002-HD0 is the same controller as the WD-1002-05, except that > it doesn't have the floppy support. I think Herb Johnson sells a manual > for one on his retrotechnology.com site, but I also haven't checked > bitsavers. Yes, but does that manual contain a schematic? Alas I've discovered that many computer manuals don't contain such useful information. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 25 13:28:44 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 19:28:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fischertechnik Interface / Documentation? In-Reply-To: from "Gary Sparkes" at Feb 25, 6 00:44:32 am Message-ID: > > I wonder if any of those are equivalent to the ones on the BBC disk. > > Comparing them might be interesting... > I'll zip up a copy and put it somewhere, if you wish It might be easier to do the reverse, for me to send you the BBC versions. I have them as text files, whereas I assume your GWBASIC programs are tokenised, and thus I'd have to fire up an MS-DOS machine to make sense of them. Similarly, I assume the driver program on your disk is binary only, whereas the BBC version is at least assemnly language (uncommented, though). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 25 13:33:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 19:33:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor In-Reply-To: <001401c639ec$9fda5970$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> from "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" at Feb 25, 6 04:19:47 am Message-ID: > > Advertisement # 5869045519 > > The title is "1st Palm Computer" ... the item is a Psion Organiser II. > > I understand that no one will dig like I have about the history of handhelds > ... but geez, the only research this doofus had to do is to read the big > letters on the cover of the instruction manual ... Where it says "II" as in > "not the first." :) Nitpicks...(I know none of these apply to the machine in question, but...) 1) The -I and -II might have come out at the same time and differ in, say, memory size only 2) The -I might not have been a palmtop computer. it might have been a desktop or something. Anyway, I've learnt over the years to not trust anything an E-bay seller says in a description, other than the model number (most of the time!). Certainly not things like 'rare', 'first', etc. :-) > > I kindly pointed this out in a message to the seller (sans the "doofus" > part.) The seller's reply tonight was "Get a life!!" I see. So it's OK to misrepreset products now, is it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 25 13:35:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 19:35:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor In-Reply-To: <006501c63a1a$bf60f140$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Feb 25, 6 09:49:56 am Message-ID: > > > I kindly pointed this out in a message to the seller (sans the "doofus" > > part.) The seller's reply tonight was "Get a life!!" > > I think when you've lived 10 more years you'll see his point. Explain, please. Do you feel it is reasonable to make a misleading statement about a product you are selling? And the only 'life' I have any desire to obtain is the zero-player infinite game thing. Actually, I must try to program an I2S model 75 image processor/display to play life (yes, I do have the transform sequencer board). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 25 16:05:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 14:05:52 -0800 Subject: Squeal on Older Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <200602252046.k1PKk0Zn020878@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200602252046.k1PKk0Zn020878@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200602251405520623.3EDB5097@10.0.0.252> On 2/25/2006 at 3:46 PM Brad Parker wrote: >I don't know what the material was (other than "teflon"), but I seem to >recall at least one mfg did this. some of those memories are a bit dim :-) A well placed wad of chewing gum would do the trick, it would seem. ;) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Feb 25 16:15:14 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 22:15:14 +0000 Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor In-Reply-To: <4400C193.7080606@oldskool.org> References: <001b01c63a1b$fd0a0c60$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <20060225170954.F0393BA4891@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4400B8FC.7050302@yahoo.co.uk> <4400C193.7080606@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4400D6F2.7090802@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> To me it's not about being geeky, it's about maintaining a few >> rudimentary standards and doing some *very basic* research before >> selling something. Doesn't seem like too much to ask or expect of a >> seller, and is irrespective of whatever it is that's being sold. > > Even if the seller is not a collector and knows nothing about what he's > selling? Yep, even then. They should take a little bit of pride in their work, and also do the rest of us the common courtesy of first checking anything that they present as fact. If the former isn't possible, there's absolutely nothing wrong with listing an item and admitting that they know nothing about it! If the seller knows nothing about the item, there's no reason for not just saying so... cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 25 16:32:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 14:32:49 -0800 Subject: Kaypro 10 Western Digital Hard Disk Controller WD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602251432490093.3EF3FADE@10.0.0.252> On 2/25/2006 at 7:26 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Yes, but does that manual contain a schematic? Alas I've discovered that >many computer manuals don't contain such useful information. Well, Herb's offering the WD OEM manual--such manuals have in the past offered at least a PCB layout. I'm sure that Herb will confirm what's in the thing though. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Feb 25 16:35:14 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 14:35:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <009401c63a1d$f47356e0$5f25fea9@ibm23xhr06> from John Allain at "Feb 25, 6 10:12:54 am" Message-ID: <200602252235.OAA19666@floodgap.com> > > it does not > > take a rocket scientist to do things like cook an egg, do simple tax > > returns, appreciate some fine art, or even date a girl/boy - but computer > > nerds tend to crash and burn on any and all of these tasks. We are idiots, > > just in a different light. > > I should just let this stand on it's own as a really great statement. > > Don't listers realize that any eBay thread gets tiresome after it > reaches the 20 replies mark? Just glance at it, smile and move on. Nazi. That's a Hitlerian approach. (There, I invoked Godwin. ;) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Architecture is the art of how to waste space. -- Philip Johnson ----------- From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Sat Feb 25 16:49:19 2006 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:49:19 -0600 Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor Message-ID: Except when you are talking about Ashton-Tate's DBaseII, where they felt no one would buy it if it were a first version, so they made it sound like a second version. :) Bob Message: 20 Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 04:19:47 -0500 From: "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor ... but geez, the only research this doofus had to do is to read the big letters on the cover of the instruction manual ... Where it says "II" as in "not the first." :) Message-ID: <20060225225632.22432.qmail@web31810.mail.mud.yahoo.com> LOL! There's always one person in the room... --- Robert Feldman wrote: > Except when you are talking about Ashton-Tate's DBaseII, where they felt no > one would buy it if it were a first version, so they made it sound like a > second version. > > :) Bob From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 25 17:03:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 15:03:09 -0800 Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602251503090539.3F0FC1E9@10.0.0.252> On 2/25/2006 at 4:49 PM Robert Feldman wrote: >Except when you are talking about Ashton-Tate's DBaseII, where they felt >no >one would buy it if it were a first version, so they made it sound like a >second version. Or Windows NT 2.0, or Windows 94 or 1999... From fernande at internet1.net Sat Feb 25 17:55:40 2006 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 18:55:40 -0500 Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor In-Reply-To: <4400C193.7080606@oldskool.org> References: <001b01c63a1b$fd0a0c60$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <20060225170954.F0393BA4891@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4400B8FC.7050302@yahoo.co.uk> <4400C193.7080606@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4400EE7C.6070900@internet1.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> To me it's not about being geeky, it's about maintaining a few >> rudimentary standards and doing some *very basic* research before >> selling something. Doesn't seem like too much to ask or expect of a >> seller, and is irrespective of whatever it is that's being sold. > > > Even if the seller is not a collector and knows nothing about what he's > selling? Absolutely!! I don't mind a seller not knowing what they are selling, as long as some common sense is used in the listing. I do mind, when they don't know what they are selling, so they make stuff up, or make assumptions based on the direction the wind is blowing. Often I email sellers, sometimes I get a positive response, sometimes nothing at all. The average Joe's usually return my email, sometimes with more questions, sometimes just thanking me. The pro's that know they're telling a story to potential buyers usually don't return my email. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 25 17:56:11 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 23:56:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor In-Reply-To: <4400D6F2.7090802@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 25, 6 10:15:14 pm Message-ID: > > Even if the seller is not a collector and knows nothing about what he's > > selling? > > Yep, even then. They should take a little bit of pride in their work, and also > do the rest of us the common courtesy of first checking anything that they > present as fact. > > If the former isn't possible, there's absolutely nothing wrong with listing an > item and admitting that they know nothing about it! If the seller knows > nothing about the item, there's no reason for not just saying so... Exactly. I've bought many things over the years -- at radio rallies (hamfests), in second-hand shops, and on E-bay -- where the seller doesn't know much, if anything, about it. Maybe it turned up in some scrap, maybe it came from the estate of a relative, whatever. Often I've done rather well by recognising something that others haven't recognised (equally, I've kicked myself a few times for _not_ recognising something as the missing part I need to complete a ). And I have no problem with sellers not knowing much about the item. Nobody can know everything. That does not excuse them from making up false information. IMHO they should either take the time and trouble to check (which may boost the final selling price, so it could be to their adbantage), or just say noting. Present the facts (in this case just quote what it says on the nameplate), let the buyers decide. IANAL but I think that presenting false information like this would be classed as misrepresentation. And even 'innocent misrepresentation' -- giving false information when you had no reason to suspect it was false, is an offence. -tony From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Feb 25 17:25:09 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:25:09 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <200602231444120161.34B1B2FA@10.0.0.252> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060225172509.46577f9e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:44 PM 2/23/06 -0800, you wrote: >On 2/23/2006 at 7:33 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > >>What is it with German sellers? It appears that very few of them take >>Paypal. > >I believe it's because bank wire transfers in Germany are almost (if not >actually) free. Now, if someone in Germany were to send me a wire >transfer, it would cost me at least $40 and probably more, as my bank >thought up new names for fees to attach to the transaction. Same here. That's one reason why I refuse to take wire transfers. A lot of Europeans don't understand that. > >But then, that's about what my bank charges to cash a cashier's check made >payable by the New York branch of a German bank. What??? If it's payable in US dollars and from a US bank then they shouldn't be charging any fee. (But I sometimes have to argue with the droid behind the counter in my bank to convince them). What bank is that? Joe > >Cheers, >Chuck > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Feb 25 17:38:36 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:38:36 Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor In-Reply-To: <4400C193.7080606@oldskool.org> References: <4400B8FC.7050302@yahoo.co.uk> <001b01c63a1b$fd0a0c60$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <20060225170954.F0393BA4891@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4400B8FC.7050302@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060225173836.0fdf6a64@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:44 PM 2/25/06 -0600, you wrote: >Jules Richardson wrote: >> To me it's not about being geeky, it's about maintaining a few >> rudimentary standards and doing some *very basic* research before >> selling something. Doesn't seem like too much to ask or expect of a >> seller, and is irrespective of whatever it is that's being sold. > >Even if the seller is not a collector and knows nothing about what he's >selling? YES! If he doesn't know anything about he has no basis for saying that it's the first! And Evan is right, it's clearly marked II right on the item so there's NO reason for him not to know that it's not the first! Joe From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sat Feb 25 18:10:43 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:10:43 -0800 Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS In-Reply-To: References: <43FCF0B4.4080603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Don't forget Digital Mars C++. It supports 16 bit code and relatively recent C++ standards. Doesn't support huge mode though AFAICT. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sat Feb 25 18:10:43 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:10:43 -0800 Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS In-Reply-To: References: <43FCF0B4.4080603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Don't forget Digital Mars C++. It supports 16 bit code and relatively recent C++ standards. Doesn't support huge mode though AFAICT. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 25 18:25:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:25:08 -0800 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20060225172509.46577f9e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20060225172509.46577f9e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200602251625080321.3F5ACFB6@10.0.0.252> On 2/25/2006 at 5:25 PM Joe R. wrote: > What??? If it's payable in US dollars and from a US bank then they >shouldn't be charging any fee. (But I sometimes have to argue with the >droid behind the counter in my bank to convince them). What bank is that? If I don't argue with them, they'll charge for it--this is US Bank. Bunch of idiots. Send gold bullion instead. Cheers, Chuck From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Feb 25 19:24:51 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 19:24:51 Subject: Hamfests In-Reply-To: References: <"20 Feb 2006 20:47:10 -0800." <20060221044710.28110.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060225192451.40cfcbb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> > >In article <20060221044710.28110.qmail at web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, > Chris M writes: > >> are these at this point in time still any good for >> procuring puter gear of a vintage nature? Hell Yes! I passed up three Amigas with the video toasters just two weeks ago at the Orlando Hamfest. I think the guy would have given them to anyone that would take them. Hunting at hamfests are just like hunting anywhere else: Go often, Go early and look hard and you'll find the stuff. Also talk to people about what you're looking for and you'll frequently find someone that has an old computer that they've been saving becasue they stnd the thought of throwing it away and they're just looking for someone that will take it and preserve it. I found a Sage with all the manuals and SW that way last fall. I've NEVER left a hamfest empty handed! Joe From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Feb 25 19:37:49 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 01:37:49 GMT Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > And the only 'life' I have any desire to obtain is the zero-player > infinite game thing. Actually, I must try to program an I2S model 75 > image processor/display to play life (yes, I do have the transform > sequencer board). One of these days I'll have to dig out the code for that "virtual ecosystem" simulator and port it on to my 6502 board. For fun :P Basically it's the classic "foxes and rabbits" simulator. I want to see it running on an 8MHz 6502 board, but with a few extensions - a "pack hunting" AI could be quite fun to play with. I wonder how fast I can refresh an 80x24 VT display over a 19200 Baud RS232 link... -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G ... Where's my 640Meg SIMM? I want to run Excel! From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Feb 25 19:59:43 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 20:59:43 -0500 Subject: Hamfests References: <"20 Feb 2006 20:47:10 -0800."<20060221044710.28110.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.6.16.20060225192451.40cfcbb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <005601c63a78$502a3df0$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 2:24 PM Subject: Re: Hamfests > > > > >In article <20060221044710.28110.qmail at web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, > > Chris M writes: > > > >> are these at this point in time still any good for > >> procuring puter gear of a vintage nature? > > > Hell Yes! I passed up three Amigas with the video toasters just two > weeks ago at the Orlando Hamfest. I think the guy would have given them to > anyone that would take them. Hunting at hamfests are just like hunting > anywhere else: Go often, Go early and look hard and you'll find the stuff. > Also talk to people about what you're looking for and you'll frequently > find someone that has an old computer that they've been saving becasue they > stnd the thought of throwing it away and they're just looking for someone > that will take it and preserve it. I found a Sage with all the manuals and > SW that way last fall. I've NEVER left a hamfest empty handed! > > Joe Do you already have a video toaster or just no interest in Amiga gear? I would love a toaster for my A2000 but have yet to see any in my area at a reasonable price (Ohio). From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Feb 25 21:47:55 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 21:47:55 -0600 Subject: Hamfests In-Reply-To: <005601c63a78$502a3df0$72781941@game> References: <"20 Feb 2006 20:47:10 -0800."<20060221044710.28110.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.6.16.20060225192451.40cfcbb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <005601c63a78$502a3df0$72781941@game> Message-ID: <440124EB.2050401@mdrconsult.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > > Do you already have a video toaster or just no interest in Amiga gear? I > would love a toaster for my A2000 but have yet to see any in my area at a > reasonable price (Ohio). Make a reasonable offer (offlist). I'll even throw in the Video Toaster case cover and input board that came with it. Doc From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Feb 25 22:00:10 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 23:00:10 -0500 Subject: Hamfests References: <3.0.6.16.20060225192451.40cfcbb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <005601c63a78$502a3df0$72781941@game> <440124EB.2050401@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <000c01c63a89$24337340$72781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 10:47 PM Subject: Re: Hamfests > Teo Zenios wrote: > > > > Do you already have a video toaster or just no interest in Amiga gear? I > > would love a toaster for my A2000 but have yet to see any in my area at a > > reasonable price (Ohio). > > Make a reasonable offer (offlist). I'll even throw in the Video > Toaster case cover and input board that came with it. > > > Doc How much were you looking to get? I hate making offers since I tend to lowball and some people get offended. Most of my collection tends to be acquired when people just want the items gone, like an almost unused external Sony DDS4 DAT drive I got a week ago for $16 shipped. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Feb 25 22:01:16 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 23:01:16 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div", To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Post In-Reply-To: <43F2C6BF.6010202@mindspring.com> References: <200602131800.k1DI04X5091506@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43F1243E.209@update.uu.se> <43F1DB16.9090908@compsys.to> <43F22CE7.7070007@mindspring.com> <43F2C6BF.6010202@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4401280C.3020007@compsys.to> >Don North wrote: > [Snip] > > In most cases however it appears that if DIV overflows the quo and rem > registers are unaltered and the Vbit is set. > > SIMH and a real 11/44 (mostly) behave this way. The behavior below > found by Jerome may be an anomaly seen in E11. Jerome Fine replies: I responded to the first portion of this post about a week ago. Shortly after that, John Wilson became directly involved and clarified that E11 performs the calculations and "changes" the registers even if the overflow "v" bit is set = 1. If anyone is interested, John Wilson has posted a sample "plugin" for E11 at: http://www.dbit.com/pub/e11/plugin/inst/ in the files: inst.* Since I am not a PC capable person, I don't have the software tools to even assemble and link the plugin to produce a DLL file, let along check out the plugin code. However, I wrote some additional code for other UMul instructions along with some UDiv instructions. If anyone is capable on 386 assembly language instructions, I would be VERY grateful if a quick look at my code seems reasonable. John Wilson has suggested using http://www.openwatcom.org/ to provide a WASM and WLINK to produce a DLL. Is anyone interested in helping me assemble and link the INST.ASM file? I did not include my additions to the INST.ASM file, but I can certainly post them to cctalk if there is any interest. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Feb 26 01:38:15 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 23:38:15 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div", To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Post In-Reply-To: <4401280C.3020007@compsys.to> References: <200602131800.k1DI04X5091506@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43F2C6BF.6010202@mindspring.com> <4401280C.3020007@compsys.to> Message-ID: <200602252338.16328.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 25 February 2006 20:01, Jerome H. Fine wrote: --snip-- > If anyone is interested, John Wilson has posted a sample "plugin" > for E11 at: > http://www.dbit.com/pub/e11/plugin/inst/ > in the files: inst.* Tried the URL and got: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Not Found The requested URL /pub/e11/plugin/inst/ was not found on this server. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sun Feb 26 01:57:46 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 23:57:46 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 Integer Divide Instruction "Div" In-Reply-To: <200602252338.16328.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200602131800.k1DI04X5091506@dewey.classiccmp.org> <43F2C6BF.6010202@mindspring.com> <4401280C.3020007@compsys.to> <200602252338.16328.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <44015F7A.2010103@mindspring.com> I found that it is actually at .../plugins/... Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Saturday 25 February 2006 20:01, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > --snip-- > >> If anyone is interested, John Wilson has posted a sample "plugin" >> for E11 at: >> http://www.dbit.com/pub/e11/plugin/inst/ >> in the files: inst.* >> > > Tried the URL and got: > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Not Found > The requested URL /pub/e11/plugin/inst/ was not found on this server. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Lyle > From Bob at BRADLEE.ORG Thu Feb 23 17:12:25 2006 From: Bob at BRADLEE.ORG (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 18:12:25 -0500 Subject: US Robotics PC? In-Reply-To: <200602231408210919.3490E398@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200602232323.k1NNNoZ1070982@keith.ezwind.net> Back in the late 70's the guy who started US robotics was building modem kits and systems with a guy names Terry who had a computer shop Midwest Micro Computer in lombard Il. It was second only to Itty Bitty Machine Company just off the Northwestern campus in Evenston as the first computer store in the Chicago area. Terry wanted me to help him fix a bunch of modem kits that were being solid the US Robotics name, I was shocked at the choice of name, and was told he went out of his way to secure the name and trademark, that was why we had to fix the kits he could not get working ASAP. Wish I could think of Terry's last name That one will bug me a while :( Any Old time Windy City hackers remember Terry ? Here is one for the crowd, Does any one else at the founding meeting of the Chicago Computer Society met for the first time at Devry and Ward C of CBBS and Modem1 through 7 fame asked everyone to stand up and sit down in response to what universal question ? BTW: the computer you are thinking about was z-80 ran cpm and wordstar and an early spread sheet and a hack of what became eventually Xmodem because that was about all there was then. I think the printer was the first used of the epxon FX80 not to be confused with the MX80 that came along a few years later. The FX printer was very popular in early Point of Sale systems. Thanks for bringing up a fresh batch of old memories. Bob Bradlee On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:08:21 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: >This was back, oh, in about 1978. I was at one of the trade shows (don't >remember which one) and there was a fellow with a computer with integrated >monitor, disk drives and a printer (sticking out of the top) in a fairly >large black box--probably Z80, but I can't be sure. >I remember that it was USR because of the unusual name of the company. Has >anyone else ever seen one of these beasts? >Cheers, >Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 23 17:23:07 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 15:23:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sirius 1 (aka Victor 9000) on Ebay (UK) In-Reply-To: <43EC8678.9020902@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20060223232307.36342.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Dude...if they're so common, can you grab one for me and float it over on some sort of makeshift raft? No way I'm paying shipping from the UK. That's a sport! ;) --- Jules Richardson wrote: > They're pretty common on this side of the pond for > some reason... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 23 19:06:39 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 17:06:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Producing PCB's from old padmaster films? In-Reply-To: <43F39A1E.8070400@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20060224010639.82399.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> of course I'm late as usual. How many of what are you trying to reproduce? The chemicals to produce your own boards (and chemicals aren't always even necessary) are readily available. I would say the first step is to produce scans of whatever artwork you have. --- "Curt @ Atari Museum" wrote: > Anyone know of any PCB firms that still do PCB > production based on > original Film art? I have most of the films for > what was and wasn't > produced by Atari, there are no digital files (heck > some of these very > early films, like the original Pong console are done > with adhesive tape > onto a clear plastic film for crying out loud!) > So I am looking for a > place that can still work with this old style way of > making PCB's, anyone? > > > > > Curt > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.9/261 - > Release Date: 2/15/2006 > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 23 19:14:22 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 17:14:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sirius 1 (aka Victor 9000) on Ebay (UK) In-Reply-To: <200602100022400573.79C2C821@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20060224011422.66356.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> the same Victor that made the 9000 started out by making calculators I was told (by a dude who worked at JPL). Possibly adding machines even earlier? But I'm extrapolating for no good reason. Is this the same company? --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > What tickles my sense of irony was that when it > started up, Victor began > harrassing small businesses that had similar names. > IIRC, under threat of > legal action, they actually forced a retailer who'd > been doing business as > Victor Electronics for 20 years to change his > business name. Victor got a > fair amount of press when it started up--but didn't > last long...and then it > fizzled. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Feb 23 21:01:08 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 19:01:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: US Robotics PC? Message-ID: <20060224030108.20989.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> IINM the founder (or something) of USR lives in this general vicinity (Ocean Cty., NJ). Doubt I could track him down solely based on the account of someone whn bought a bow of motors from him (:O),...but I could try. Maybe hed know... --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > I remember that it was USR because of the unusual name of the company. Has > > anyone else ever seen one of these beasts? > > Never saw one, and I often cleaned up USRs junk room. > > William Donzelli > ex integrat at usr.com > aw288 at osfn.org > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Feb 24 10:15:32 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 11:15:32 -0500 Subject: VAXstations in London In-Reply-To: <575131af0602240730g7a1828fcq2e61067c6207044f@mail.gmail.co m> References: <9e2403920602232239p22967bdao18d414a8ed681e98@mail.gmail.com> <7400b3b354a24b7b9cc633de06286393@valleyimplants.com> <575131af0602232147m539a16as2ea02f41000534db@mail.gmail.com> <9e2403920602232239p22967bdao18d414a8ed681e98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060224111208.03b28118@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Liam Proven may have mentioned these words: >Oh, I am sure, but I'm sorry, it's 2006 and I am not prepared to use a >text-mode interface as my primary or only means of controlling a >workstation in the 21st Century! ;-) ;-) [[ Insert more smileys here... ;-) ]] With that attitude, Bill Gates must *love* you... ;-) >A server, yes, fine. A workstation, a terminal, no. :?) Pffft. I can get more done in Linux with Lynx than I can with firefox -- *unless* the page is b0rked or I wanna look at playboy.com - then there's `links -g`... Who needs winders to see nekkid chix?!?! Not me! ;-) I just *wish* I had room to set up my VaxStation again - but I have a CoCo to set up for the kids first. ;-) Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From a.beal at btinternet.com Fri Feb 24 14:13:49 2006 From: a.beal at btinternet.com (A. Beal) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:13:49 +0000 Subject: Amstrad PCW Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20060224201117.023ec3a8@btinternet.com> Dear folks, Is anyone interested in an Amstrad PCW 8512 in good working order (720k drive belt recently replaced, spare belt for 360k drive available) with plenty of discs, Locoscript, Super Type and Desktop publishing software, printer, spare printer cartridge? A second PCW8512 also available with printer - but this needs new drive belts fitted to its disc drives. I am in the UK - Leeds (West Yorkshire). Best wishes, Alasdair Beal a.beal at btinternet.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 24 22:31:21 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2006 20:31:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: keyboard activation Message-ID: <20060225043121.7816.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> would it be accurate to say that a unit, such as my Mindset II, which has the power switch built into the keyboard turns the system on by asserting the power-good signal (when the switch is activated)? I know from the Byte article that an 8042 supervises the keyboard (same or similar to the IBM PC/AT). I was thinking I could tie something? to +5 volts in an attempt to determine if my pos even works. And how far is it from reality to suggest all pc kbs are the same except for their 8048/9/8748/9 programming? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 25 18:03:54 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:03:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: C Compilers for (MS)DOS Message-ID: <20060226000354.83316.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> dont know how small it is, but Herb Shildts C - the complete manual (I think thats the title, its orange, black and white) by Osborne has the source for a C interpreter (dont know if its 16 or 32 bit. My rather rotten guess is its meant to be compiled as a VC++ console app). There was also a C interpreter as part of some MS package (maybe Quick C?). Now everyone can jump for joy at such glad tidings. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > On 2/23/2006 at 12:04 AM Gary Sparkes wrote: > > >How about anything that'd fit on an atari portfolio, in 64kb ram card?:) > > How about the Small-C interpreter? Should fit in 64K just fine: > > http://www.cpm.z80.de/small_c/smc88dos.zip > > Cheers, > Chuck > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 25 23:28:19 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 21:28:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: stupid Ebay pus monkeys war Re: Stupid eBay user du jor Message-ID: <20060226052819.43118.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> what about this larry.. guy on the west coast. What a friggin moron! He apparently bought up ALL the Zenith Z-100s west of the Mississippi (the rest belongs to another ass-carrot named Herb right here in the great state of NJ. But excuse me, I feel the sudden urge to projectile vomit). At each and every auction he says its the last one hes got. So I shoot him an e-mail question, and his reply begins with - understand...I dont know you. And he refused to give a shipping quote until after I bid. --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > Even if the seller is not a collector and knows nothing about what he's > > > selling? > > > > Yep, even then. They should take a little bit of pride in their work, and also > > do the rest of us the common courtesy of first checking anything that they > > present as fact. > > > > If the former isn't possible, there's absolutely nothing wrong with listing an > > item and admitting that they know nothing about it! If the seller knows > > nothing about the item, there's no reason for not just saying so... > > Exactly. > > I've bought many things over the years -- at radio rallies (hamfests), in > second-hand shops, and on E-bay -- where the seller doesn't know much, if > anything, about it. Maybe it turned up in some scrap, maybe it came from > the estate of a relative, whatever. Often I've done rather well by > recognising something that others haven't recognised (equally, I've > kicked myself a few times for _not_ recognising something as the missing > part I need to complete a ). > > And I have no problem with sellers not knowing much about the item. > Nobody can know everything. > > That does not excuse them from making up false information. IMHO they > should either take the time and trouble to check (which may boost the > final selling price, so it could be to their adbantage), or just say > noting. Present the facts (in this case just quote what it says on the > nameplate), let the buyers decide. > > IANAL but I think that presenting false information like this would be > classed as misrepresentation. And even 'innocent misrepresentation' -- > giving false information when you had no reason to suspect it was false, > is an offence. > > -tony > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From sellam at vintagetech.com Sat Feb 25 09:30:01 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 07:30:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking various manuals ($$$) Message-ID: I have a new bounty out for manuals for the following products: Numerix MARS-432 (also known as NMX-432) - a coprocessor baord for the VAX Floating Point Systems 164 (FPS 164) CDC Cyberplus & Advanced Flexible Processor (AFP) Culler 7 If you've got any of these manuals please reply directly to me . There is a cash reward for producing these manuals. Inquire for details. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Feb 26 10:31:05 2006 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:31:05 +0000 Subject: bogus auction for Altair system on eBay In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20060223090037.0598c3a0@mail> References: <3.0.6.16.20060222203719.1127386c@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <009701c6382d$401d8cc0$6700a8c0@vrs> <6.2.3.4.2.20060223090037.0598c3a0@mail> Message-ID: <26c11a640602260831h2fbc2c6q@mail.gmail.com> On 23/02/06, John Foust wrote: > At 09:57 PM 2/22/2006, vrs wrote: > >> >Seconded. ebay and paypal exist for the buyer, not the seller. I had a > >> >friend sell something online for $80, then take the money out. 2 weeks > >> >later the buyer claimed that "his computer was taken over by hackers" > >> >and denied ever buying the item (which was virtual, ie. no physical > >> >product to ship or track). paypal tore the $80 out of his account, > > Welcome to credit card processing. It favors the customer not the seller. > It doesn't get any better in real life. If your business accepts > credit cards, you can bet that you'll be on the hook if the > transaction is called into question for any reason. > That used to be the case in the UK, I lost around ?850 last year on credit card transactions being questioned and the bank favouring their side. Now with the Pin system if the pin is correct the retailer gets the money. The customer should not of disclosed the pin. This going to cause problems with muggings etc. but the retailer always gets the money. It is also a lot slower to process transactions because evey transaction is approved by the bank. Whereas before they would not be checked for credit cards if the amount was under ?40. Dan Dan From news at computercollector.com Sun Feb 26 10:43:33 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 11:43:33 -0500 Subject: US Robotics PC? In-Reply-To: <20060224030108.20989.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002801c63af3$c84a8a30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Do we know the USR founder's name? I'm pretty good at tracking people down. :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris M Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 10:01 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: US Robotics PC? IINM the founder (or something) of USR lives in this general vicinity (Ocean Cty., NJ). Doubt I could track him down solely based on the account of someone whn bought a bow of motors from him (:O),...but I could try. Maybe hed know... --- cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > I remember that it was USR because of the unusual name of the company. Has > > anyone else ever seen one of these beasts? > > Never saw one, and I often cleaned up USRs junk room. > > William Donzelli > ex integrat at usr.com > aw288 at osfn.org > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Feb 26 11:59:11 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 12:59:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: US Robotics PC? In-Reply-To: <002801c63af3$c84a8a30$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: > Do we know the USR founder's name? I'm pretty good at tracking people down. > :) One of the very old time US Robots lurks on this list - maybe he will pop up. I am not sure if he was the absolute founder of USR, but Casey Cowell was there at the beginning. He is not the lurker mentioned above. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Feb 26 12:06:24 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 10:06:24 -0800 Subject: sexy PDP-11/44 panel In-Reply-To: <43FF6BE1.3080309@mindspring.com> References: <200602241951.k1OJpgdg014288@mwave.heeltoe.com> <43FF6BE1.3080309@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <1140977185.7162.92.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-02-24 at 12:26 -0800, Don North wrote: > > If Guy really can implement a 22b examine/deposit physical memory in a > pure SPC slot kudos to him. The only way I can think of possibly doing > it (thinking out loud again :-) ) is to steal a UNIBUS map entry and on > each exam/deposit set it up correctly to map the 18b unibus address to > the desired 22b address. I don't recall if the UNIBUS map is accessible > from the UNIBUS itself (if it is, this could work; if not, then it won't). Ding! Ding! Yes, I'm planning on co-opting one of the map entries while the system is "halted". Since it will require multiple steps (saving/restoring the contents of the map entry before and after the examine/deposit) I'll have to implement some sort of sequencer and a bit of a scratchpad (and also forcing the system into 22-bit addressing). >From what I've been able to tell, the UNIBUS map is accessible from the UNIBUS. I have to do a bit more research to make sure. -- TTFN - Guy From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Feb 26 13:16:15 2006 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 13:16:15 -0600 Subject: early USRobotics history Message-ID: <000001c63b09$1d68a6e0$176fa8c0@obie> Ah, the pleasures of being on the cc-tech digest! Kind of like retro-tivo... I'm not clear on the pre-history of USRobotics but I can tell you some of the early history. In the late '70s a group of UofC students (and near-students?) got together to do some computer stuff. When the name actually appeared and what the first "product" might have been I don't know, but apparently the group went from 7 to 5 to 3 members. I became aware of the company in 1982; at that time the principals were Casey Cowell, Paul Collard and Steve Muka and the only product was modems. A Hyde Park neighbor of mine, Stan Metcalf, had been a member of the earlier group(s) but we never really talked about what the group was doing when he was involved with them. The story told at that time was that the company had been formed to produce a home terminal based on Don Lancaster's TV typewriter which they would sell to UofC users for dial-up access to the campus mainframe. When the modem was finished, they realized they would do better selling it as a standalone product to be used with a standard terminal (eg the Bantams and Teleltypes) and stopped short of designing their own terminal. I never knew anyone named Terry who was involved with the company or knew of any other products. When I first learned of the company, they were in the process of moving from Washington and Eagle Streets in Chicago, right around the corner from what would become Oprah's Harpo Productions, to McCormick Street in Skokie. First location had been in Casey's apartment on Lincoln Avenue near the Biograph theater. I started with them in 1984; I don't think Bill Donzelli joined the company until a good bit after the move to Skokie. When _I_ cleaned out the basement on Eagle Street, I found a couple ASR-33s and some Perkin-Elmer Bantam terminals along with a fair number of bogarted doobies left by the shipping crew. The Bantams were still in use internally by the company and had been resold by them at one point when they were still selling the black, vacuum-molded "bathtub" modems. By the early 80s, the current product was the aluminum-cased (Hayes look-alike?) AutoDial series. The company ran on a couple of MP/M based Dynacomp systems with attached terminals (the Bantams and/or Televideos, later Wyse50s). My first job was to convert the single-user BASIC inventory program (a legacy of the first system, a TRS-80 Model III) to dBaseII and then multiuser DataFlex. When we moved to Skokie we also moved to a couple of Godbout-based S100 systems, running MP/M then MP/M II and finally the Gifford version of ConcurrentDOS. Skokie was a lot bigger and I installed DR-NET to link a couple remote systems; not long after we moved to an HP3000 and the ASK MANMAN (manufacturing management) system. ASK was FORTRAN based and used HP IMAGE for data management. Lots of hard work and good times. Jack Message: 1 Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2006 18:12:25 -0500 From: "Bob Bradlee" Subject: Re: US Robotics PC? To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <200602232323.k1NNNoZ1070982 at keith.ezwind.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Back in the late 70's the guy who started US robotics was building modem kits and systems with a guy names Terry who had a computer shop Midwest Micro Computer in lombard Il. It was second only to Itty Bitty Machine Company just off the Northwestern campus in Evenston as the first computer store in the Chicago area. Terry wanted me to help him fix a bunch of modem kits that were being solid the US Robotics name, I was shocked at the choice of name, and was told he went out of his way to secure the name and trademark, that was why we had to fix the kits he could not get working ASAP. Wish I could think of Terry's last name That one will bug me a while :( Any Old time Windy City hackers remember Terry ? Here is one for the crowd, Does any one else at the founding meeting of the Chicago Computer Society met for the first time at Devry and Ward C of CBBS and Modem1 through 7 fame asked everyone to stand up and sit down in response to what universal question ? BTW: the computer you are thinking about was z-80 ran cpm and wordstar and an early spread sheet and a hack of what became eventually Xmodem because that was about all there was then. I think the printer was the first used of the epxon FX80 not to be confused with the MX80 that came along a few years later. The FX printer was very popular in early Point of Sale systems. Thanks for bringing up a fresh batch of old memories. Bob Bradlee On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:08:21 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: >This was back, oh, in about 1978. I was at one of the trade shows >(don't remember which one) and there was a fellow with a computer with >integrated monitor, disk drives and a printer (sticking out of the top) >in a fairly large black box--probably Z80, but I can't be sure. >I remember that it was USR because of the unusual name of the company. >Has anyone else ever seen one of these beasts? >Cheers, >Chuck -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.1.0/269 - Release Date: 2/24/2006 From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Feb 26 13:37:38 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 14:37:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: early USRobotics history In-Reply-To: <000001c63b09$1d68a6e0$176fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: > I started with them in 1984; I don't think > Bill Donzelli joined the company until a good bit after the move to > Skokie. I think it was 1988. It was a summer job, initially working for Al Hernandez in the maintenance department, then transfered over to you towards the end. I remember Al had me cutting the mulberry trees on the north side the day of the interview, coming in completely stained a nice shade of purple. My second round at USR was much later - 1993 or so. Mostly it involved building up stuff for AOL, and later, AT&T Worldnet. By then, USR was not a super place to be, frankly. No cleaning of the junk room then - everything tended to get crushed and sold to a scrapper (who, incidently, made an enourmous amount of money on USR scraps. This is what happens when quality and production yeilds hit rock bottom). > The company ran on a couple of MP/M based Dynacomp systems with attached > terminals (the Bantams and/or Televideos, later Wyse50s). I think those manuals ended up at RICM at some point. Some of the HP3000 stuff as well. I hated that MANMAN. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 26 13:40:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 11:40:19 -0800 Subject: early USRobotics history In-Reply-To: <000001c63b09$1d68a6e0$176fa8c0@obie> References: <000001c63b09$1d68a6e0$176fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: <200602261140190609.03DBA6F4@10.0.0.252> On 2/26/2006 at 1:16 PM Jack Rubin wrote: >I'm not clear on the pre-history of USRobotics but I can tell you some >of the early history. In the late '70s a group of UofC students (and >near-students?) got together to do some computer stuff. My memory places this at 1978, maybe 79 at the latest. What sticks in my mind is that what I saw was a CPU, keyboard, printer and display all in one rather large desktop box. Why it remains in my mind is that the product was exactly what we were working on at the time and the name of the outfit had "Robotics" in it (very unusual for the time). Maybe not USR, but if not, can anyone think of another "Robotics" computer firm back then? Cheers, Chuck From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sun Feb 26 13:50:34 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 11:50:34 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <200602231142300865.340B5719@10.0.0.252> References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0602220416v527f9c01k48143acc8572cea4@mail.gmail.com> <1140613592.26669.6.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> <575131af0602230709i2178434ta0beb432d4c7d835@mail.gmail.com> <200602231142300865.340B5719@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On 2/23/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > However, paging frees > the programmer from worrying about organizing things in segmented fashion > (and having to deal with selectors)--what is seen is simply a huge linear > address space (Usually CS=DS=ES=FS=GS and nobody changes them). And we're still paying for this brain dead choice with buffer and stack overrun exploits. Whoever was the nitwit that decided to make data and stack pages should be accessible through the code selector and code should be accessible through the data selector should be tarred and feathered. Actually it's probably lots of nitwits that need to be tarred, since most x86 operating systems make this mistake. Would it have been so difficult to have 1GB of unified stack+data and a separate 1GB of code? (or adjustable segment sizes depending upon the requirements of the program)? Attempting to execute a data or stack item should segfault. Attempting to read or write a code item should segfault. If you need to execute data there should be an OS call to move pages into the code space. Rather than the OS writers fixing this problem, they let it fester until the processor manufacturers added a no-execute option to page level permissions. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 26 14:03:17 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 20:03:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VAXstations in London In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060224111208.03b28118@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Feb 24, 6 11:15:32 am Message-ID: > Pffft. I can get more done in Linux with Lynx than I can with firefox --=20 > *unless* the page is b0rked or I wanna look at playboy.com - then there's= > =20 > `links -g`... Who needs winders to see nekkid chix?!?! Not me! Don't you mean 'mekkid chips' ? ( :-), of course) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 26 14:11:35 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 20:11:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: keyboard activation In-Reply-To: <20060225043121.7816.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 24, 6 08:31:21 pm Message-ID: > > would it be accurate to say that a unit, such as my > Mindset II, which has the power switch built into the > keyboard turns the system on by asserting the > power-good signal (when the switch is activated)? I Unlikely, if you're talking about a conventional PC. The Power-good line is an output from the PSU, it's used to reset the CPU until the power lines have all come up. If you want to be able to turn the machine on/off, presumably you need a special PSU with either some kind of relay (solid-state or electromechanical) in the mains input circuitm or some way to shut the chopper circuit down. I would also expect at least one 'alwyas on' output. > know from the Byte article that an 8042 supervises the > keyboard (same or similar to the IBM PC/AT). I was The 8042 is a microcontorller. It can be programmed to do almost anything. It might even be powered all the time, and control the rest of the PSU via one of its output port lines. In which case the power on/off switch might send a keycode to the main unit, the 8042 would detect this and control the PSU appropriately. Do you even know that the keyboard connecotr is the same as on a PC? Is it possible there's an extra pin dedicated to the power on/off control? Rememebr the PC keyboard connector has 5 pins, but one of them was almost never used (if's officially a reset output from the PC). > thinking I could tie something? to +5 volts in an > attempt to determine if my pos even works. And how far > is it from reality to suggest all pc kbs are the same > except for their 8048/9/8748/9 programming? If by 'PC' you mean IBM compatible, well all clone keyboards should lookl the same to the host computer (byt be warned I've found bugs here!). Anny differences in the microcontroller program would be to handle a difference electical layout of the keys. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 26 14:41:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 20:41:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Panasonic RL H1400 handheld computer Message-ID: Can anyone tell me useful stuff about the Panasonic RL H1400 computer? I believe it was also sold under the Quasar brand name. I've just bought one. As well as the machine (which I've not tested yet), I got a little thermal printer/cassette interface, the AC adapter (for 110V mains), and 13 EPROMs in carriers. These seem to be insurance programs (what a suprise -- NOT), but are at least UV-erasable EPROMs. A few things : I have of course taken it apart, it is painful to dismantle with wires soldered between everything. The contemporary HP machines are a lot nicer to work on. With the bottom cover removed, you see the component side of the CPU board. I recognise the 6502 processor, some TTL and 4000-series CMOS chips, 2 8K ROMS soldered in, and 2 6116 (2K each) SRAMs. There's also a square PQFP chip, looks to be custom (I/O???). Alongside that board is a 6V NiCd pack with a fuse in series. A bit more desoldering and unscrewing let me flip that board out of the way. On the underside is another TTL chip and a lot of SMD passives, etc. The other PCB carries the keyboard contacts, the display, half-a-dozen Epson PQFP chips (display drivers?) and a couple of 4071s, which IIRC are OR gates. There's an expansion connector on the end of the CPU board. 44 contacts. Looks to be the 6502 bus + power some others. The printer also comes apart from the bottom. Its PCB contains a 4K ROM, an 80 pin PQFP ASIC, a driver chip, and a few small logic chips. Getting ito the rest of the machine is a bit more tricky, all it contains is the printer mechanism and 4.8V-worth of NiCds. I also cracked open the mains adapter.More complicated than I thought, there's a regulator chip in there. And a fuse mounted in clips (what is the point of a clipped in fuse inside a glued case??). Anyway, I've done a web search. Nothing very useful turned up. I did read a user manual on one site, which told me little that wasn't obvious. Anyone got any technical information on it? Any useful software? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 26 14:17:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 20:17:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor In-Reply-To: from "Philip Pemberton" at Feb 26, 6 01:37:49 am Message-ID: > I wonder how fast I can refresh an 80x24 VT display over a 19200 Baud RS232 > link... Well, if you hae to re-write the entire screen each time : 19200, assuming 10 bits per character (start, 8 data, 1 stop) is 1920 characters/second. Your screen has 1920 characters. So one full screen per second, maximum I am told that the origianl spec for the PERQ rasterop machine was that it should be as fast at updating text as a normal serial terminal (remember the PERQ didn't have a text mode, just a bitmapped mode). It was estimated that the speed of a good terminal was one full screen per second. In fact the PERQ easily beat it -- the peak speed, assuming all you were doing was displaying things on the screen, was nearer 10 full screens per second, and that's a full PERQ secreen, which displays something like 80*66 characters. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 26 14:30:30 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 20:30:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Those Epson disk drive motors again Message-ID: A couple of days ago I mentioned I'd discovered a workaround for Epson SD320 or SD321 spindle motors that stopped after a few seconds because the protection circuit was tripping... Well, one came back to bite me. I spend the afternoon looking at the other drive in the TF20. I'd changed the resistor I mentioened and put the motor back in place. Hooked it up to the bench supply, and would you beleive it stopped after a few seconds. So out it came again. The bare motor stopped after a few seconds too, and the protection cicrcuit was certainly being triggered (the base of Q33 was at about 0.6V). I noticed a leaky electrolytic, so I changed that, no improbement. So I decided to totally disable the protection circuit by removing the 300k feed resistor. You guessed it, the darn thing still triggered, there was still 0.6V on the base of Q33. All that's connected to that point are a resistor to ground (the one I'd reduced to 56k), a capacitor to ground, and the base itself. I removed all 3 components. OK, the mtoor now ran (so the rpoblem was in the protection circuit). And there was nearly 9V on the base connection for the transistor -- a point that had noting connected to it. You guessed it. some of the gunge from the faulty capacitor was causing electrical leakage on the PCB. I could read 100k of resistance from the isolated track to the nearby 9V supply to the CX065B chip. I took out a few more components to get to the PCB surface, then really cleaned it up. And then I was getting over 30M leakage. Put everything back, and it seems to work.... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 26 17:02:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 15:02:33 -0800 Subject: Stupid eBay user du jor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602261502330828.0494CDC6@10.0.0.252> > I wonder how fast I can refresh an 80x24 VT display over a 19200 Baud >RS232 link... Well, depending on the "dumbness" of the program doing the refreshing it can vary pretty wildly. When I was doing the software for the "plug this card into your PC in place of the normal MDA and drive your VT-100 (or 220) with it, it was actually pretty surprising how well a VT220 at 19200 could keep up with a monochrome 80x25 display. All it took was a sufficient amount of processing horsepower at the adapter end to make determinations of what was going on and issuing the proper ANSI escape sequences. We had a threshold that once exceeded determined that it was faster to clear the display and repaint it than send out all of the "move to (X,Y), clear to end of line, etc." sequences. Out of curiosity, I kept a counter that recorded how many times in a session that actually occured. It wasn't very often--and typically coincided with an application clearing the screen. Detecting scrolling activity was a bit tricky. You couldn't hook the BIOS routine to do it, because very few full-screen programs (like Lotus 1-2-3) actually used the BIOS routines and in between samples, the screen may have scrolled several lines. I've sometimes wondered if much of Windows couldn't have been simplified with a dedicated processor to track the contents of the various windowed information instead of having the application redraw it all of the time. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 26 17:06:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 15:06:19 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: References: <43B75062.3030906@mdrconsult.com> <43BA0488.9030400@oldskool.org> <575131af0602211917y43804763q3b7c4753323dde2@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0602220416v527f9c01k48143acc8572cea4@mail.gmail.com> <1140613592.26669.6.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> <575131af0602230709i2178434ta0beb432d4c7d835@mail.gmail.com> <200602231142300865.340B5719@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200602261506190054.04983D8D@10.0.0.252> On 2/26/2006 at 11:50 AM Eric J Korpela wrote: >And we're still paying for this brain dead choice with buffer and >stack overrun exploits. No argument there. At the very least, permissions should have been better managed. But having CS separate from DS/ES/FS/GS makes the most sense. Sometimes it seems that while we've evolved from a mule cart to a Maserati, all we've done is moved the mule to the front seat. Cheers, Chuck From news at computercollector.com Sun Feb 26 17:14:35 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:14:35 -0500 Subject: Panasonic RL H1400 handheld computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001701c63b2a$69308310$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Don't worry Jack, you're not alone, a bunch of us have RLH models. (There was also a 1200 and a 1600 I think -- I might have those numbers wrong -- the differences were in the amount of memory in the computer.) The computer (generally called a "pocket computer" when you search on the web) was designed by Friends Amis. Shortly before they finished it the company (or maybe just the product line?) was acquired by Matsushita which sells as Panasonic / Quasar. There's a very handy description at http://old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=644 -- make sure you also click on the icons on the right side of the page for more information. The computers were mostly bought by insurance companies. Roger M. last year was making copies of the BASIC module, maybe he still is. By coincidence, last week I spoke with guy who was software manager at Friends Amis. He was moderately helpful; the best information he gave me was names of other Friends Amis people who were higher up and / or joined the company earlier than he did. So now I'm trying to contact those people and, of course, I will post updates here if / when I reach them. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 3:42 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Panasonic RL H1400 handheld computer Can anyone tell me useful stuff about the Panasonic RL H1400 computer? I believe it was also sold under the Quasar brand name. I've just bought one. As well as the machine (which I've not tested yet), I got a little thermal printer/cassette interface, the AC adapter (for 110V mains), and 13 EPROMs in carriers. These seem to be insurance programs (what a suprise -- NOT), but are at least UV-erasable EPROMs. A few things : I have of course taken it apart, it is painful to dismantle with wires soldered between everything. The contemporary HP machines are a lot nicer to work on. With the bottom cover removed, you see the component side of the CPU board. I recognise the 6502 processor, some TTL and 4000-series CMOS chips, 2 8K ROMS soldered in, and 2 6116 (2K each) SRAMs. There's also a square PQFP chip, looks to be custom (I/O???). Alongside that board is a 6V NiCd pack with a fuse in series. A bit more desoldering and unscrewing let me flip that board out of the way. On the underside is another TTL chip and a lot of SMD passives, etc. The other PCB carries the keyboard contacts, the display, half-a-dozen Epson PQFP chips (display drivers?) and a couple of 4071s, which IIRC are OR gates. There's an expansion connector on the end of the CPU board. 44 contacts. Looks to be the 6502 bus + power some others. The printer also comes apart from the bottom. Its PCB contains a 4K ROM, an 80 pin PQFP ASIC, a driver chip, and a few small logic chips. Getting ito the rest of the machine is a bit more tricky, all it contains is the printer mechanism and 4.8V-worth of NiCds. I also cracked open the mains adapter.More complicated than I thought, there's a regulator chip in there. And a fuse mounted in clips (what is the point of a clipped in fuse inside a glued case??). Anyway, I've done a web search. Nothing very useful turned up. I did read a user manual on one site, which told me little that wasn't obvious. Anyone got any technical information on it? Any useful software? -tony From spc at conman.org Sun Feb 26 18:10:43 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:10:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <200602261506190054.04983D8D@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 26, 2006 03:06:19 PM Message-ID: <20060227001044.99E7D73029@linus.area51.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > > On 2/26/2006 at 11:50 AM Eric J Korpela wrote: > > >And we're still paying for this brain dead choice with buffer and > >stack overrun exploits. > > No argument there. At the very least, permissions should have been better > managed. But having CS separate from DS/ES/FS/GS makes the most sense. > Sometimes it seems that while we've evolved from a mule cart to a Maserati, > all we've done is moved the mule to the front seat. I don't buy this argument---what about the 68000 family? No segments there at all. The Internet Worm of 1988 took advantage of that (and the VAX---another flat architecture). -spc (Security, Speed, Easy---pick two ... ) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 26 18:31:20 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:31:20 -0800 Subject: Xenix 286? In-Reply-To: <20060227001044.99E7D73029@linus.area51.conman.org> References: <20060227001044.99E7D73029@linus.area51.conman.org> Message-ID: <200602261631200881.04E6165D@10.0.0.252> On 2/26/2006 at 7:10 PM spc at conman.org wrote: > > I don't buy this argument---what about the 68000 family? No segments >there at all. The Internet Worm of 1988 took advantage of that (and the >VAX---another flat architecture). Still, it's possible to protect (read only or execute only) code pages. I think that Windoze got into the mess by taking a lax attitude such as dynamically modifying code (e.g. DLL calling sequences) as a routine part of operation. Once you start down that road, it's hard to change. A lot of our current security problems arise from insecure thinking. I could hardly believe it when MS trotted out OLE as an internet facility (renaming it ActiveX in the process). One could, for example, treat executable files as sacrosanct and difficult to modify or access as data without permission. But they're still treated as if they contained nothing special. Cheers, Chuck From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Feb 26 13:38:54 2006 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 19:38:54 +0000 Subject: Those Epson disk drive motors again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060227003709.JCDJ27612.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > A couple of days ago I mentioned I'd discovered a workaround for Epson > SD320 or SD321 spindle motors that stopped after a few seconds because > the protection circuit was tripping... > > Well, one came back to bite me. > isolated track to the nearby 9V supply to the CX065B chip. I took out a > few more components to get to the PCB surface, then really cleaned it up. > And then I was getting over 30M leakage. > > Put everything back, and it seems to work.... > > -tony You're not only one, I had to do same thing to couple mitsubishi 20" TVs, these tend to have electrolytic ooze on the board too that is tripping x-ray shutdown, many small caps are around this area where these x-ray shutdown transistors are. Cheers, Wizard From sieler at allegro.com Sun Feb 26 19:52:35 2006 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:52:35 -0800 Subject: UCSD LISP & p-code (was Re: Looking for Tiny Pascal) In-Reply-To: <20060221195742.34258.qmail@web32509.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4401EAE3.3906.1F297A@localhost> Re: > In Byte Magazine Vol. 3 Nos. 9, 10, and 11 (Sep 1978, Oct 1978, > Nov 1978) there is an article written by Kin-Man Chung and > Herbert Yuen describing a "Tiny Pascal" compiler. Tiny Pascal > compiles a subset of pascal to p-code, and then translates that > p-code into 8080 assembly. The compiler is written in North > Star BASIC. Interesting. Circa 1973, Bill Gord and I wrote a BBN-LISP to p-code compiler and interpreter on a Burroughs B6500 for the UCSD (University of California, San Diego) Computer Center, on a contract for DARPA. (BBN-LISP is the precursor to InterLISP.) BBN-LISP didn't have the p-code stuff. Our DARPA contract was to port BBN-LISP to the B6500; once we got the LISP interpreter running, we then decided to improve the speed by doing the UCSD-unique enhancement of the compiler/interpreter. IIRC, this pre-dated UCSD Pascal p-code, but there's an obvious relationship: Bill and I worked for Ken Bowles, and both p-codes (and Java byte code :) resemble the B6500 instruction set. My recollection is that I wrote the LISP-to-p-code compiler (in LISP, of course :), and Bill designed the p-code and wrote the p-code interpreter (in Burroughs ALGOL). When interpreting a LISP function, we would jump to the p-code interpreter if the function had been compiled, otherwise we'd stay in the LISP interpreter code. We talked about writing a p-code to machine code translator, but in those days the Burroughs B6500 MCP code/data separation would have made aspects of the implementation inefficient, so we never did that. Stan Sieler -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Feb 26 20:24:48 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:24:48 -0800 Subject: RT-11, "PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 User Manual" Message-ID: <200602261824.48556.lbickley@bickleywest.com> If someone has a copy of the RT-11, "PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 User Manual" I'd like to borrow it to make a copy (and lend it to Al Kossow to put it up on bitsavers.org). Version 5.x would be perfect. I'll be glad to pay for shipping both "ways". If you have a PDF of the manual that would be even better. Please let me know where I can download it - or I'll give you a private FTP address to upload it. Thanks, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Feb 26 20:31:26 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:31:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: RT-11, "PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 User Manual" Message-ID: <20060227023126.B12A919ABEF@bitsavers.org> I should have this scanner. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Feb 26 20:41:52 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:41:52 -0800 Subject: RT-11, "PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 User Manual" In-Reply-To: <20060227023126.B12A919ABEF@bitsavers.org> References: <20060227023126.B12A919ABEF@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200602261841.52864.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 26 February 2006 18:31, Al Kossow wrote: > I should have this scanner. BTW: The name of the manual may be RT-11, "PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 User Guide" ("Guide" as opposed to "Manual" in my prior email). Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From rcini at optonline.net Sun Feb 26 20:42:39 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 21:42:39 -0500 Subject: Random things available for trade Message-ID: <002a01c63b47$797b0520$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: As I clean the shop a bit I've come across a few things to trade. As I continue working, I'll pull some other things together and post them. So far: * NEC 8080 evaluation kit "EVAKIT-8" includes board and manuals. * "Inside Commodore DOS" book * Various BYTE mags (YR:MO): o 75/12 o 76/4 o 77/2, 3, 10, 11 o 78/1-6, 9 o 79/1, 5-7, 9, 10, 12 o 80/4, 7, 1, 10 o 81/3-5 o 82/full year o 83/3, 8 o 84/3 Wanted: * "vintage" 5.25" external floppy drive case suitable for two drives (preferably full-height but half-height OK) * CP/M boot disks/CBIOS/loader listing suitable for SD Sales VersaFloppy controller Location: 11791 If interested, please contact me off-list. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sun Feb 26 20:46:31 2006 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:46:31 -0800 Subject: early USRobotics history References: <200602261800.k1QI04pt068903@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000a01c63b48$13b28af0$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Here are some data sheets I got in 1978 on the USR "bathtub" modems. I didn't buy one but built my own modem based on a Motorola MC6860. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/USR/USR_Modem.htm Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 26 22:35:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 20:35:43 -0800 Subject: early USRobotics history In-Reply-To: <000a01c63b48$13b28af0$0300a8c0@downstairs2> References: <200602261800.k1QI04pt068903@dewey.classiccmp.org> <000a01c63b48$13b28af0$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <200602262035430335.05C5CEAE@10.0.0.252> On 2/26/2006 at 6:46 PM Michael Holley wrote: >Here are some data sheets I got in 1978 on the USR "bathtub" modems. I >didn't buy one but built my own modem based on a Motorola MC6860. >http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/USR/USR_Modem.htm Didn't Popular Electronics have a modem construction project around that time? I can't recall what they called it, but I did know someone who built one. Cheers, Chuck From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Mon Feb 27 00:13:56 2006 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 22:13:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Various items I have to sell/trade Message-ID: <20060227061356.42620.qmail@web81003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I've added a page to my website where I am posting things I have to sell or trade. Currently have a microVax 3100, DEC Storage Expansion, HP 9836, Sun 3/80 and Sun SparcStation 5. I'll be adding items as I sort through things. Just don't have the time to give these the attention they deserve so hope I can find others who can. Most are in an unknown condition. You can find it at: http://www.trailingedge.com/selltrade.html David From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Feb 27 01:40:16 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 23:40:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Random things available for trade In-Reply-To: <002a01c63b47$797b0520$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <002a01c63b47$797b0520$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Feb 2006, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Wanted: > > * "vintage" 5.25" external floppy drive case suitable for two drives > (preferably full-height but half-height OK) Have you considered using old external SCSI cases? I mounted my P112 board in one. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tomj at wps.com Mon Feb 27 02:04:43 2006 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 00:04:43 -0800 Subject: MS-DOS 2.0 and "semi compatibles" In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A33808@mail.catcorner.org> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A33808@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <1141027482.6724.134.camel@fiche.wps.com> MZ has always been the magic number. Mark Zbikowski's initials. http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=66qkfr83sa5ae?method=4&dsid=2222&dekey=Mark+Zbikowski&gwp=8&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc05b&linktext=Mark%20Zbikowski On Thu, 2006-02-23 at 16:05, Kelly Leavitt wrote: > I just imaged a disk of an MS-DOS compatible computer (Tandy 2000). Does > anyone here know the magic number of an exe under ms-dos 2.0? I had assumed > that it was MZ, like current exe files, but I only see 2 or 3 occurrences of > this in the entire data stream from the disk. On the plus side, I see LOTS > of strings that tell me I have actually read the contents of the disk (this > machine used DS/QD drives). > > Here are some examples: > Licensed to Tandy Corp. > BIOS version 01.00.00 > Copyright 1983 Tandy Corp. All rights reserved. > > MS-DOS version 02.00.00 > Copr. 1981,82,83 Microsoft Corp. > > I'm guessing I need a good hex editor to look at the directory and offsets > to see if they jibe. Any good windows based hex editors (or at least > viewers) that anyone can suggest? > > I'll send the same message to 'classiccmp' > > Kelly From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Feb 27 02:06:51 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 08:06:51 -0000 Subject: RT-11, "PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 User Manual" In-Reply-To: <200602261824.48556.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <009101c63b74$c53b70d0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Lyle Bickley wrote: > If someone has a copy of the RT-11, "PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 User Manual" > I'd like to borrow it to make a copy (and lend it to Al Kossow to put > it up on bitsavers.org). Version 5.x would be perfect. I'll be glad > to pay for shipping both "ways". > > If you have a PDF of the manual that would be even better. Please let > me know where I can download it - or I'll give you a private FTP > address to upload it. Al already has: AA-V193A-TK "PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 Language Reference Manual" scanned at bitsavers. Is that close enough to what you need? Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Feb 27 02:49:34 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:49:34 +0100 Subject: MS-DOS 2.0 and "semi compatibles" References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A33808@mail.catcorner.org> <1141027482.6724.134.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <000a01c63b7a$bbf1c230$2101a8c0@finans> > > I'm guessing I need a good hex editor to look at the directory and offsets > > to see if they jibe. Any good windows based hex editors (or at least > > viewers) that anyone can suggest? > > I'm very happy with Ultra Edit Nico From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Feb 27 04:57:18 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 11:57:18 +0100 Subject: RT-11, "PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 User Manual" Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE237C@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hello Lyle, I have the following manuals (on paper). PDP-11 Fortran-77 Documentation Supplement AA-JQ94A-TK June 1987 Fortran-77 Version 5.2 PDP-11 Fortran-77 Language Reference Manual AA-V193A-TK July 1983 Fortran-77 V5.0 (I have this one twice, so for postage, it's yours) PDP-11 Fortran-77/RT-11 User's Guide AA-BR70A-TC Operating System: RT-11 V5.1 Fortran-77/RT-11 V5.0 (Adapted from PDP-11 Fortran-77/RSX by Multiware, Inc.) PDP-11 Fortran-77/RT-11 Object Time System Reference Manual AA-BR71A-TC March 1984 PDP-11 Fortran-77/RT-11 Installation Guide/Release Notes AA-BR72A-TC March 1984 All together they are a thick orange binder, so if I must scan please tell me which ones. I will probably split them up in chapters, because at 600 dpi (256 greylevels) they will be many Mb's in size. Funny, I did not even know I had the RT-11 Fortran-77 doc of Multiware, as recently discussed in a thread! - Henk, PA8PDP. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Lyle Bickley Verzonden: ma 27-02-2006 03:41 Aan: Al Kossow CC: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: RT-11, "PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 User Manual" On Sunday 26 February 2006 18:31, Al Kossow wrote: > I should have this scanner. BTW: The name of the manual may be RT-11, "PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 User Guide" ("Guide" as opposed to "Manual" in my prior email). This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a "reply" message. Thank you for your cooperation. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Feb 27 04:58:56 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 10:58:56 GMT Subject: ALife sims and terminal refresh rates (was Stupid eBay user du jor) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > I wonder how fast I can refresh an 80x24 VT display over a 19200 Baud RS232 > > link... > > Well, if you hae to re-write the entire screen each time : > > 19200, assuming 10 bits per character (start, 8 data, 1 stop) is 1920 > characters/second. Your screen has 1920 characters. So one full screen > per second, maximum So not fast enough to get 2fps on an Alife simulator. Drat. Looks like I need to make my homebrew LCD controller 6502-bus-compatible then. 480x256 monochrome - it's not much, but it should work pretty well. It would be even nicer if I could get Hitachi to give me a copy of the specsheet for the SP21H002-Z1A display. I've been told it's a 640x200 RGB display with a touchscreen, but nobody seems to have a specsheet and all the controller chips are chip-on-glass. The sales guy at Hitachi can't even be bothered to either return my calls or reply to the email I sent... natch. > second. In fact the PERQ easily beat it -- the peak speed, assuming all > you were doing was displaying things on the screen, was nearer 10 full > screens per second, and that's a full PERQ secreen, which displays > something like 80*66 characters. Wow. Not bad. That said, the VRAM would have been memory-mapped, so I would have expected a decent write speed anyway. Thanks. -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G ... The mark of a true professional is giving more than you get. From news at computercollector.com Mon Feb 27 08:36:08 2006 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:36:08 -0500 Subject: Test, ignore Message-ID: <000c01c63bab$25e467d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Changing my email config, just ignore this please. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 27 09:12:02 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:12:02 Subject: Hamfests In-Reply-To: <005601c63a78$502a3df0$72781941@game> References: <3.0.6.16.20060225192451.40cfcbb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060227091202.41cf28fc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:59 PM 2/25/06 -0500, Teo wrote: >> > Chris M writes: >> > >> >> are these at this point in time still any good for >> >> procuring puter gear of a vintage nature? >> >> >> Hell Yes! I passed up three Amigas with the video toasters just two >> weeks ago at the Orlando Hamfest. I think the guy would have given them to >> anyone that would take them. Hunting at hamfests are just like hunting >> anywhere else: Go often, Go early and look hard and you'll find the stuff. >> Also talk to people about what you're looking for and you'll frequently >> find someone that has an old computer that they've been saving becasue >they >> stnd the thought of throwing it away and they're just looking for someone >> that will take it and preserve it. I found a Sage with all the manuals and >> SW that way last fall. I've NEVER left a hamfest empty handed! >> >> Joe > >Do you already have a video toaster or just no interest in Amiga gear? I >would love a toaster for my A2000 but have yet to see any in my area at a >reasonable price (Ohio). No interest in the Amiga stuff. I have to stop somewhere! Joe From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Feb 27 09:06:12 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 10:06:12 -0500 Subject: Panasonic RL H1400 handheld computer In-Reply-To: <001701c63b2a$69308310$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001701c63b2a$69308310$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <0278AA72-AAB5-4EC8-8C0D-CD8394923C6F@xlisper.com> I have a module that plugs into the side of the HHC and contains four ROMs containing the SNAP (Forth-like) programming language for the HHC. I sent Roger Merchberger a copy of the ROM images and he has been trying to get this to work on internal ROMs but I don't think he's been successful yet. Unfortunately, the pins were brittle on one of the ROMs that I pulled from my module and several have broken off. Until I find a machined pin socket to repair the broken ROM, I no longer have a working module. The ROM image files are okay though. The checksums on the image files match the checksums on the labels on the ROMs. On Feb 26, 2006, at 6:14 PM, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > Don't worry Jack, you're not alone, a bunch of us have RLH models. > (There > was also a 1200 and a 1600 I think -- I might have those numbers > wrong -- > the differences were in the amount of memory in the computer.) > > The computer (generally called a "pocket computer" when you search > on the > web) was designed by Friends Amis. Shortly before they finished it > the > company (or maybe just the product line?) was acquired by > Matsushita which > sells as Panasonic / Quasar. > > There's a very handy description at > http://old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=644 -- make > sure you > also click on the icons on the right side of the page for more > information. > > The computers were mostly bought by insurance companies. > > Roger M. last year was making copies of the BASIC module, maybe he > still is. > > By coincidence, last week I spoke with guy who was software manager at > Friends Amis. He was moderately helpful; the best information he > gave me > was names of other Friends Amis people who were higher up and / or > joined > the company earlier than he did. So now I'm trying to contact > those people > and, of course, I will post updates here if / when I reach them. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2006 3:42 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Panasonic RL H1400 handheld computer > > Can anyone tell me useful stuff about the Panasonic RL H1400 > computer? I > believe it was also sold under the Quasar brand name. > > I've just bought one. As well as the machine (which I've not tested > yet), I > got a little thermal printer/cassette interface, the AC adapter > (for 110V > mains), and 13 EPROMs in carriers. These seem to be insurance > programs (what > a suprise -- NOT), but are at least UV-erasable EPROMs. > > A few things : > > I have of course taken it apart, it is painful to dismantle with wires > soldered between everything. The contemporary HP machines are a lot > nicer to > work on. > > With the bottom cover removed, you see the component side of the > CPU board. > I recognise the 6502 processor, some TTL and 4000-series CMOS > chips, 2 8K > ROMS soldered in, and 2 6116 (2K each) SRAMs. There's also a square > PQFP > chip, looks to be custom (I/O???). Alongside that board is a 6V > NiCd pack > with a fuse in series. > > A bit more desoldering and unscrewing let me flip that board out of > the way. > On the underside is another TTL chip and a lot of SMD passives, etc. > > The other PCB carries the keyboard contacts, the display, half-a- > dozen Epson > PQFP chips (display drivers?) and a couple of 4071s, which IIRC are OR > gates. > > There's an expansion connector on the end of the CPU board. 44 > contacts. > Looks to be the 6502 bus + power some others. > > The printer also comes apart from the bottom. Its PCB contains a 4K > ROM, an > 80 pin PQFP ASIC, a driver chip, and a few small logic chips. > Getting ito > the rest of the machine is a bit more tricky, all it contains is > the printer > mechanism and 4.8V-worth of NiCds. > > I also cracked open the mains adapter.More complicated than I thought, > there's a regulator chip in there. And a fuse mounted in clips > (what is the > point of a clipped in fuse inside a glued case??). > > Anyway, I've done a web search. Nothing very useful turned up. I > did read a > user manual on one site, which told me little that wasn't obvious. > Anyone got any technical information on it? Any useful software? > > -tony > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Feb 27 09:12:35 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 15:12:35 GMT Subject: "P-Source" book / UCSD P-system I.5 docs Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone have a spare copy of the book "P-Source: Inside Apple Pascal" by Randy Hyde (pub: DATAMOST), or any low-level info on UCSD P-system I.5, especially the 'Version I' pcode interpreter? I'm trying to port the UCSD P-System onto my homebrew 6502 computer, but that's a little difficult without any documentation on the P-code interpreter itself. Ordinarily I'd just buy a copy of the book off Amazon, but ?65 plus P&P with a six-week wait for delivery is downright outrageous... Thanks. -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Feb 27 09:49:25 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 07:49:25 -0800 Subject: RT-11, "PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 User Manual" In-Reply-To: <009101c63b74$c53b70d0$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <009101c63b74$c53b70d0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <200602270749.26172.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 27 February 2006 00:06, a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > Lyle Bickley wrote: > > If someone has a copy of the RT-11, "PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 User Manual" > > I'd like to borrow it to make a copy (and lend it to Al Kossow to put > > it up on bitsavers.org). Version 5.x would be perfect. I'll be glad > > to pay for shipping both "ways". > > > > If you have a PDF of the manual that would be even better. Please let > > me know where I can download it - or I'll give you a private FTP > > address to upload it. > > Al already has: > > AA-V193A-TK "PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 Language Reference Manual" I downloaded that from bitsavers long ago. The RT-11, "PDP-11 FORTRAN 77 User Guide" is a totally different manual. It describes how to USE the features of FORTRAN-77, parameters, performance, virtual environments, etc. - not the FORTRAN 77 language (the language manual is essentially OS independent). I do have the RSTS/E, RSX and IAS FORTRAN User Guide - but the RT-11 Guide is unique. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Feb 27 10:00:56 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 08:00:56 -0800 Subject: RT-11, "PDP-11 FORTRAN-77 User Manual" In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE237C@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> References: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE02CE237C@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <200602270800.56882.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Henk, On Monday 27 February 2006 02:57, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > PDP-11 Fortran-77 Documentation Supplement > AA-JQ94A-TK June 1987 Fortran-77 Version 5.2 Need. > PDP-11 Fortran-77 Language Reference Manual > AA-V193A-TK July 1983 Fortran-77 V5.0 > (I have this one twice, so for postage, it's yours) Al has it on bitsavers.org. > PDP-11 Fortran-77/RT-11 User's Guide > AA-BR70A-TC Operating System: RT-11 V5.1 > Fortran-77/RT-11 V5.0 > (Adapted from PDP-11 Fortran-77/RSX by Multiware, Inc.) Very cool - the exact manual I need!! > PDP-11 Fortran-77/RT-11 Object Time System Reference Manual > AA-BR71A-TC March 1984 I'd love a copy of this as well! > PDP-11 Fortran-77/RT-11 Installation Guide/Release Notes > AA-BR72A-TC March 1984 This would be great as well (Although I analyzed the installation scripts (IND files, and command files, etc.) and figured out enough to do the install and upgrade. > All together they are a thick orange binder, so if I must scan > please tell me which ones. I will probably split them up in > chapters, because at 600 dpi (256 greylevels) they will be > many Mb's in size. IIRC, Al scans at 400bpi for bitsavers - that would save some space... Thanks a lot for the scan offer! I really appreciated your last documentation CD!!! > Funny, I did not even know I had the RT-11 Fortran-77 doc of > Multiware, as recently discussed in a thread! ;-) Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From marvin at rain.org Mon Feb 27 10:57:26 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 08:57:26 -0800 Subject: Those Epson disk drive motors again Message-ID: <44032F76.91E62AE8@rain.org> The problem of leakage is certainly not limited to this stuff. Back when I was making PC boards, I made some boards for a company, and they told me they were no good. So I took a trip up to their place (very nice nice, a couple of hundred yards from the Pacific Ocean.) These were high impedance circuits, and IIRC most didn't work. I had already made *sure* the boards were clean when they were sent since this was a new customer and the second time it happend. Some of you already know the answer by now ... the salty air from the Paficic created the problem. > Well, one came back to bite me. > isolated track to the nearby 9V supply to the CX065B chip. I took out a > few more components to get to the PCB surface, then really cleaned it up. > And then I was getting over 30M leakage. > > Put everything back, and it seems to work.... > > -tony From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Feb 27 11:08:00 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 09:08:00 -0800 Subject: Data General on govliquidation site Message-ID: <440331F0.9030706@sbcglobal.net> If anyone is interested, I found what appears to be a DG powered test system on the govliquidation site: http://cgi.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=794618 The tape drive is DG and the card cage looks like my Eclipse system, but I don't know what processor it really is. It's in Oklahoma City and weighs 1740 pounds so won't be cheap to ship. Bob From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 27 13:20:26 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 12:20:26 -0700 Subject: Various items I have to sell/trade In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 26 Feb 2006 22:13:56 -0800. <20060227061356.42620.qmail@web81003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: They all have the same picture.... I'd have replied personally, but it looks like you're using a bogus address. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Mon Feb 27 14:21:58 2006 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 12:21:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Various items I have to sell/trade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060227202158.37989.qmail@web81001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Odd, they're all showing the correct picture to me... hmm... And I'm not sure why you think my email is a bogus address. David --- Richard wrote: > > They all have the same picture.... I'd have replied > personally, but > it looks like you're using a bogus address. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, > sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Mon Feb 27 14:41:38 2006 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 12:41:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Various items I have to sell/trade In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060227204139.96006.qmail@web81008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ah, I see now, it's browser related. As the page is dynamically generated and the image name doesn't change, some browsers (IE for example) don't reload the image. I use firefox and it worked fine but tried IE and had to hit reload to get the proper image which then stayed the same for each page if I didn't hit reload. Ok... have to fix that page then... --- Richard wrote: > > They all have the same picture.... I'd have replied > personally, but > it looks like you're using a bogus address. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, > sample chapter, FAQ: > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Feb 27 14:49:55 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 15:49:55 -0500 Subject: Panasonic RL H1400 handheld computer In-Reply-To: <0278AA72-AAB5-4EC8-8C0D-CD8394923C6F@xlisper.com> References: <001701c63b2a$69308310$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <0278AA72-AAB5-4EC8-8C0D-CD8394923C6F@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <200602271549.55159.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 27 February 2006 10:06 am, David Betz wrote: > ROMs containing the SNAP (Forth-like) programming language What can you tell me about this language? I'm looking for something I can implement, "forth-like" being a good description as to some aspects of it, but from what I can see forth has way too much in there, and is way too "console-oriented" -- I'm looking more for something suitable to use in a small utility computer or embedded system... Don't particularly want to roll my own if there's something out there I can use. Available source for z80 or 6502 family would be even better. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 27 14:55:52 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 14:55:52 -0600 Subject: MS-DOS 2.0 and "semi compatibles" In-Reply-To: <1141027482.6724.134.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A33808@mail.catcorner.org> <1141027482.6724.134.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <44036758.7010909@oldskool.org> Tom Jennings wrote: > MZ has always been the magic number. ZM works too, depending on DOS version. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From micheladam at theedge.ca Mon Feb 27 14:41:50 2006 From: micheladam at theedge.ca (micheladam at theedge.ca) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 13:41:50 -0700 Subject: Various items I have to sell/trade Message-ID: <6620114aa17.4403019e@theedge.ca> Looks like you have to 'refresh' the page after selecting which item you want to look at. Then the image is displayed correctly. That is when using MicroLimp IE ... Michel ----- Original Message ----- From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Date: Monday, February 27, 2006 1:21 pm Subject: Re: Various items I have to sell/trade > Odd, they're all showing the correct picture to me... > hmm... > > And I'm not sure why you think my email is a bogus > address. > > David > > --- Richard wrote: > > > > > They all have the same picture.... I'd have replied > > personally, but > > it looks like you're using a bogus address. > > -- > > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, > > sample chapter, FAQ: > > > > Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty > > > > > > From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Feb 27 15:06:42 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 16:06:42 -0500 Subject: Panasonic RL H1400 handheld computer In-Reply-To: <200602271549.55159.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <001701c63b2a$69308310$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <0278AA72-AAB5-4EC8-8C0D-CD8394923C6F@xlisper.com> <200602271549.55159.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <7C9CB02C-35EA-4323-88F7-7A6A67737331@xlisper.com> I'm afraid I don't know any more than that about SNAP. I don't have a manual for it. On Feb 27, 2006, at 3:49 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 27 February 2006 10:06 am, David Betz wrote: >> ROMs containing the SNAP (Forth-like) programming language > > What can you tell me about this language? > > I'm looking for something I can implement, "forth-like" being a good > description as to some aspects of it, but from what I can see > forth has way > too much in there, and is way too "console-oriented" -- I'm > looking more for > something suitable to use in a small utility computer or embedded > system... > > Don't particularly want to roll my own if there's something out > there I can > use. Available source for z80 or 6502 family would be even > better. :-) > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet > Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by > lies. --James > M Dakin > From joel.bradley at comcast.net Mon Feb 27 15:11:37 2006 From: joel.bradley at comcast.net (joel.bradley) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 15:11:37 -0600 Subject: Control Data Items Message-ID: <001e01c63be2$65af1ae0$6500a8c0@tbird> Hi all- We are getting ready for a newborn in my house and I uncovered the following items which I would like to sell. I would like them all gone preferably to one individual, so make me an offer I cannot refuse! Pictures are available upon request. 11 binders (Grey and navy with CDC logo, ranging from 1" to 3" size.) 1 Yellow binder, labelled "CDC Cyber 70 Computer Systems" 1 Control Data Stapler (works!) 1 long sleeve shirt w/collar. The turquoise shirt has been worn/washed, as it was used for career fairs by the recruitment team. Joel From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Feb 27 15:16:13 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 15:16:13 -0600 Subject: Various items I have to sell/trade In-Reply-To: <6620114aa17.4403019e@theedge.ca> References: <6620114aa17.4403019e@theedge.ca> Message-ID: <44036C1D.7080500@oldskool.org> micheladam at theedge.ca wrote: > Looks like you have to 'refresh' the page after selecting which item you want > to look at. Then the image is displayed correctly. > > That is when using MicroLimp IE ... Be fair, though; it's not proper form to generate different images all with the same name. I would expect the caching subsystem to work the way it did in IE (display the first image for all images of the same name). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Feb 27 15:16:43 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 16:16:43 -0500 Subject: Panasonic RL H1400 handheld computer In-Reply-To: <7C9CB02C-35EA-4323-88F7-7A6A67737331@xlisper.com> References: <001701c63b2a$69308310$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200602271549.55159.rtellason@blazenet.net> <7C9CB02C-35EA-4323-88F7-7A6A67737331@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <200602271616.43418.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 27 February 2006 04:06 pm, David Betz wrote: > I'm afraid I don't know any more than that about SNAP. I don't have a > manual for it. Oh. Okay, I was just wondering... Do you know offhand if this is something proprietary to them? That'd kinda kill my interest in it if so. > On Feb 27, 2006, at 3:49 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Monday 27 February 2006 10:06 am, David Betz wrote: > >> ROMs containing the SNAP (Forth-like) programming language > > > > What can you tell me about this language? > > > > I'm looking for something I can implement, "forth-like" being a good > > description as to some aspects of it, but from what I can see > > forth has way > > too much in there, and is way too "console-oriented" -- I'm > > looking more for > > something suitable to use in a small utility computer or embedded > > system... > > > > Don't particularly want to roll my own if there's something out > > there I can > > use. Available source for z80 or 6502 family would be even > > better. :-) > > > > -- > > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet > > Masters" > > - > > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by > > lies. --James > > M Dakin -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Feb 27 15:30:31 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 16:30:31 -0500 Subject: Panasonic RL H1400 handheld computer In-Reply-To: <200602271616.43418.rtellason@blazenet.net> References: <001701c63b2a$69308310$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200602271549.55159.rtellason@blazenet.net> <7C9CB02C-35EA-4323-88F7-7A6A67737331@xlisper.com> <200602271616.43418.rtellason@blazenet.net> Message-ID: <1226926A-8950-4F59-A0DE-0DAA195DB1E4@xlisper.com> I believe that SNAP was proprietary to the HHC but I think it was based on FIG-Forth. On Feb 27, 2006, at 4:16 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 27 February 2006 04:06 pm, David Betz wrote: >> I'm afraid I don't know any more than that about SNAP. I don't have a >> manual for it. > > Oh. Okay, I was just wondering... > > Do you know offhand if this is something proprietary to them? > That'd kinda > kill my interest in it if so. > >> On Feb 27, 2006, at 3:49 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>> On Monday 27 February 2006 10:06 am, David Betz wrote: >>>> ROMs containing the SNAP (Forth-like) programming language >>> >>> What can you tell me about this language? >>> >>> I'm looking for something I can implement, "forth-like" being a >>> good >>> description as to some aspects of it, but from what I can see >>> forth has way >>> too much in there, and is way too "console-oriented" -- I'm >>> looking more for >>> something suitable to use in a small utility computer or embedded >>> system... >>> >>> Don't particularly want to roll my own if there's something out >>> there I can >>> use. Available source for z80 or 6502 family would be even >>> better. :-) >>> >>> -- >>> Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >>> ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can >>> be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet >>> Masters" >>> - >>> Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by >>> lies. --James >>> M Dakin > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet > Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by > lies. --James > M Dakin > From peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk Sat Feb 25 14:13:28 2006 From: peter.hicks at poggs.co.uk (Peter Hicks) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2006 20:13:28 +0000 Subject: Give-away: 3Com EISA NICs, ICL DRS8801 manuals Message-ID: <4400BA68.50003@poggs.co.uk> All, I have the following up for grabs: * ICL DRS 8801 manual (Users Guide and Ready Reference) * Five or so 3Com EISA network cards Available for pickup from Central London (Camden/Euston area), or I can post if anyone wants to pay postage. Contact me off-list. Best wishes, Peter. -- Peter Hicks | e: my.name at poggs.co.uk | g: 0xE7C839F4 | w: www.poggs.com A: Because it destroys the flow of the conversation Q: Why is top-posting bad? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 27 15:48:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 13:48:52 -0800 Subject: Control Data Items In-Reply-To: <001e01c63be2$65af1ae0$6500a8c0@tbird> References: <001e01c63be2$65af1ae0$6500a8c0@tbird> Message-ID: <200602271348520943.0977AF77@10.0.0.252> On 2/27/2006 at 3:11 PM joel.bradley wrote: >11 binders (Grey and navy with CDC logo, ranging from 1" to 3" size.) >1 Yellow binder, labelled "CDC Cyber 70 Computer Systems" Are the binders the CDC "comb" type with a lot of rings, or are these just the garden-variety 3-ring types? From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Mon Feb 27 15:59:13 2006 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 13:59:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Various items I have to sell/trade In-Reply-To: <20060227204139.96006.qmail@web81008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060227215913.49273.qmail@web81009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Just an FYI, fixed the issue with the images. David http://www.trailingedge.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Feb 27 16:11:44 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 14:11:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: ebay and money orders Message-ID: A while ago there was some talk about Ebay and not wanting to use Paypal there for assorted reasons. Since I'm a relative newcomer to this list, I figured I should wait before saying anything along these lines. So... I'm in the business of selling classic computer stuff on Ebay under the ID of "frotz661". See if you can guess the hidden references in that name. Anyhow, I let some people talk me into accepting money orders. Then I got burned by people who like to wait forever, money orders from Bumpassville Supermarket, and so on. So I decided not to accept them anymore. You guys seem to be a more reliable bunch, so if you email me ahead of time, I'll accept a US Postal money order. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From jim.isbell at gmail.com Mon Feb 27 17:53:54 2006 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 17:53:54 -0600 Subject: ebay and money orders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: USPS money orders are safe as you can carry the package to the PO, cash the MO and put the cash in your pocket and then place the package on the desk and pay the man to ship it. I will not accept Money Orders from ANY other source. On 2/27/06, David Griffith wrote: > > A while ago there was some talk about Ebay and not wanting to use Paypal > there for assorted reasons. Since I'm a relative newcomer to this list, I > figured I should wait before saying anything along these lines. So... > > I'm in the business of selling classic computer stuff on Ebay under the ID > of "frotz661". See if you can guess the hidden references in that name. > > Anyhow, I let some people talk me into accepting money orders. Then I got > burned by people who like to wait forever, money orders from Bumpassville > Supermarket, and so on. So I decided not to accept them anymore. You > guys seem to be a more reliable bunch, so if you email me ahead of time, > I'll accept a US Postal money order. > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 27 18:11:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 16:11:03 -0800 Subject: ebay and money orders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602271611030669.09F9D9EA@10.0.0.252> On 2/27/2006 at 5:53 PM Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: >USPS money orders are safe as you can carry the package to the PO, >cash the MO and put the cash in your pocket and then place the package >on the desk and pay the man to ship it. I will not accept Money >Orders from ANY other source. As always, caution is advised here. There's been a rash of forged and altered money orders in the last few years--and it's you on the hook if the thing gets bounced. I'd recommend delaying shipment a day or two after cashing the MO to make sure that it's genuine. >From a buyer's standpoint, bearer instruments like money orders are not such a good deal if they get lost.USPS is excruciatingly slow on processing claims--you can expect to wait at least 6 months get your money back if a money order is stolen. And whatever you do, don't fall for the "Well, I know the item sold for $100, but I don't know what it'll cost to ship, so I'll send you a MO for $250 and you can just reimburse me the difference." It's becoming increasingly common for that MO to be bogus. Cheers, Chuck From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Feb 27 18:51:14 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 00:51:14 GMT Subject: ebay and money orders In-Reply-To: <200602271611030669.09F9D9EA@10.0.0.252> References: <200602271611030669.09F9D9EA@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: In message <200602271611030669.09F9D9EA at 10.0.0.252> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > From a buyer's standpoint, bearer instruments like money orders are not > such a good deal if they get lost.USPS is excruciatingly slow on processing > claims--you can expect to wait at least 6 months get your money back if a > money order is stolen. Hm, I suspect the same applies to Royal Mail Postal Orders. Thing is, it seems there's no way for RM to do anything other than say "yeah, it got cashed". They don't take your address when you cash them, so it'd be damn hard for them to trace you if it did turn out to be fake... > And whatever you do, don't fall for the "Well, I know the item sold for > $100, but I don't know what it'll cost to ship, so I'll send you a MO for > $250 and you can just reimburse me the difference." It's becoming > increasingly common for that MO to be bogus. I got a wonderful little email from someone "wanting to buy" something I had listed on ebay a few years ago. When I say wonderful of course, I meant "badly written scam". Something along the lines of "Hi, how much to ship to Lagos [alarm bell starts ringing here] and my associate in UK owes me $2000, can i tell him to send cheque to you and you reimburse me? [ALARM BELL IRREVOCABLY ON]". Square-bracketed text = my notes. I (politely) told him where to stick his cheque, and that if he insisted on shipping to Lagos, he'd have to pay by direct bank transfer. Never heard from him again - gee, I wonder why... -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 27 07:42:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 13:42:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Those Epson disk drive motors again In-Reply-To: <20060227003709.JCDJ27612.tomts16-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Feb 26, 6 07:38:54 pm Message-ID: > > > > A couple of days ago I mentioned I'd discovered a workaround for Epson > > SD320 or SD321 spindle motors that stopped after a few seconds because > > the protection circuit was tripping... > > > > Well, one came back to bite me. > > isolated track to the nearby 9V supply to the CX065B chip. I took out a > > few more components to get to the PCB surface, then really cleaned it up. > > And then I was getting over 30M leakage. > > > > Put everything back, and it seems to work.... > > > > -tony > > You're not only one, I had to do same thing to couple mitsubishi 20" Oh I've had it before. A capacitor failed in the protection circuit of my laserprinter (Apple LW2NT, Canon SX engine). It leaked onto the PCB. The result was that the fuser protection relay dropped out after a few seconds. Again, removing all possible sources for the trigger current didn't help, it was leaking across the board through the residue from the old capacitor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 27 07:48:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 13:48:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ALife sims and terminal refresh rates (was Stupid eBay user du jor) In-Reply-To: from "Philip Pemberton" at Feb 27, 6 10:58:56 am Message-ID: > > 19200, assuming 10 bits per character (start, 8 data, 1 stop) is 1920 > > characters/second. Your screen has 1920 characters. So one full screen > > per second, maximum > > So not fast enough to get 2fps on an Alife simulator. Drat. Well, that depends if you have to update every chracter or not. If you only need to change a few locations, it would be a lot faster to send the cursor movement commands and just update those chracters. > > second. In fact the PERQ easily beat it -- the peak speed, assuming all > > you were doing was displaying things on the screen, was nearer 10 full > > screens per second, and that's a full PERQ secreen, which displays > > something like 80*66 characters. > > Wow. Not bad. That said, the VRAM would have been memory-mapped, so I would > have expected a decent write speed anyway. You misunderstood me. I wasn't talking about copying an area of memory the size of the screen bitmap into the video memory (which is part of the main memory anyway). I was talking about doing a raster operation -- something like XORing a given bitmap with the screen memory. Remember that even an insert-bitmap (i.e. to write a chracter bitmap to the screen) is non-trivial on a machine where the RAM is not bit addressable (the edges of the area you want to replace most likely are not word boundaries). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 27 07:50:40 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 13:50:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Panasonic RL H1400 handheld computer In-Reply-To: <0278AA72-AAB5-4EC8-8C0D-CD8394923C6F@xlisper.com> from "David Betz" at Feb 27, 6 10:06:12 am Message-ID: > > I have a module that plugs into the side of the HHC and contains four > ROMs containing the SNAP (Forth-like) programming language for the Interesting. If all 4 ROMs are needed at once, it can't possible run in my RL H1400 -- it has only 3 internal sockets (I assume that's standard). What else is in this module? Anything custom? Could it be recreated? -tony From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Feb 27 18:36:05 2006 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 18:36:05 Subject: ebay and money orders In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20060227183605.694f4846@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:11 PM 2/27/06 -0800, you wrote: > >A while ago there was some talk about Ebay and not wanting to use Paypal >there for assorted reasons. Since I'm a relative newcomer to this list, I >figured I should wait before saying anything along these lines. So... > >I'm in the business of selling classic computer stuff on Ebay under the ID >of "frotz661". See if you can guess the hidden references in that name. > >Anyhow, I let some people talk me into accepting money orders. Then I got >burned by people who like to wait forever, That's a common problem no matter what payment method you use. Add a statement to your listings stating that payment must be recievved within X days or negative feedback will be given and the item relisted and then do it! money orders from Bumpassville >Supermarket, and? Who cares where it's from as long as it's good. the ones to watch out for are US Postal Money Orders since they're currently being forged. and so on. So I decided not to accept them anymore. You >guys seem to be a more reliable bunch, so if you email me ahead of time, I get money orders all the time and I've never had a problem with them. (Knock on wood!) I also take checks and never had a problem with those either. >I'll accept a US Postal money order. See above! Joe > > >-- >David Griffith >dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Feb 27 19:32:32 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 17:32:32 -0800 Subject: ebay and money orders In-Reply-To: References: <200602271611030669.09F9D9EA@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4403A830.9060004@msm.umr.edu> Philip Pemberton wrote: > >I (politely) told him where to stick his cheque, and that if he insisted on >shipping to Lagos, he'd have to pay by direct bank transfer. Never heard from >him again - gee, I wonder why... > > > you went into a verified "human at end of email" list for him, and he made .02 selling your email to a spammer. I never even reply to these clowns anymore. I'm not polite when I do reply, or what I say about them, you are to be commended. From rtellason at blazenet.net Mon Feb 27 19:36:56 2006 From: rtellason at blazenet.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 20:36:56 -0500 Subject: ebay and money orders In-Reply-To: <4403A830.9060004@msm.umr.edu> References: <4403A830.9060004@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200602272036.56556.rtellason@blazenet.net> On Monday 27 February 2006 08:32 pm, jim stephens wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: > >I (politely) told him where to stick his cheque, and that if he insisted > > on shipping to Lagos, he'd have to pay by direct bank transfer. Never > > heard from him again - gee, I wonder why... > > you went into a verified "human at end of email" list for him, and he > made .02 selling your email to a spammer. > > I never even reply to these clowns anymore. > > I'm not polite when I do reply, or what I say about them, you are to be > commended. I tend to simply bounce such stuff... It hasn't stopped it, but I don't seem to get the same ones from the same emails as often as I used to. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Feb 27 20:36:44 2006 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 21:36:44 -0500 Subject: Panasonic RL H1400 handheld computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think they're 1k ROM images and I think the ROMs that go in the machine are 2K ROMs. Two images will fit on each ROM. At least that's what Roger suggested. On Feb 27, 2006, at 8:50 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> I have a module that plugs into the side of the HHC and contains four >> ROMs containing the SNAP (Forth-like) programming language for the > > Interesting. If all 4 ROMs are needed at once, it can't possible > run in > my RL H1400 -- it has only 3 internal sockets (I assume that's > standard). > > What else is in this module? Anything custom? Could it be recreated? > > -tony > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 26 06:42:19 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2006 04:42:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: an odd PC seen in a thrift store (?) Message-ID: <20060226124219.12288.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> the talk of a peculiar USR pc made me remember this. There used to be a (primarily) electronic junk store in LI called Eldies (Edlies?) on Hempstead Tnpk in Levittown I guess. Sitting there one day was an all in one, IIRC, NCR unit that booted up to an a:> prompt. It struck me as a weirdish dos semi compatible. It didnt strike me as a PC4 or the nearly identical Decision Mate (cpm). Pretty sure it was NCR, but eh maybe it was NEC (definately NOT an APC, not quite that big and heavy). Anyone have a clue? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 27 19:12:05 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 17:12:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: keyboard activation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20060228011205.34158.qmail@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> The Mindset is something less then conventional (depending on who you talk to I guess). I guess this is a little more complicated then I expected, and it occurred to me after I sent this that if the 8042 supervises the activation, then, duh, it has to be getting power as long as the thing is plugged in (I think the Byte article indicated this). I don't have schematics, so I have to take another look at the thing soon. 2 piece modular design - lower half has mobo and p/s, upper half has big floppy controller board (NEC 765) and 2 drives. I am SO sorry I didn't buy one from ACP (Dave Freemen?) back in the late 80's. He blew them out for $300, later $200 sans floppy drives. It takes cartridges and all sort of plug ins (ram, serial ports, frame grabber connection, etc) in the rear of the unit. One of the niftiest units out there IMHO. I think the keyboard connector is an extra wide modular type (like a phone jack/ethernet). Didn't study it intently. I'm awash in machines here. Thanks for your time. --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > would it be accurate to say that a unit, such as > my > > Mindset II, which has the power switch built into > the > > keyboard turns the system on by asserting the > > power-good signal (when the switch is activated)? > I > > Unlikely, if you're talking about a conventional PC. > The Power-good line > is an output from the PSU, it's used to reset the > CPU until the power > lines have all come up. > If you want to be able to turn the machine on/off, > presumably you need a > special PSU with either some kind of relay > (solid-state or > electromechanical) in the mains input circuitm or > some way to shut the > chopper circuit down. > > I would also expect at least one 'alwyas on' output. > > > know from the Byte article that an 8042 supervises > the > > keyboard (same or similar to the IBM PC/AT). I was > > The 8042 is a microcontorller. It can be programmed > to do almost > anything. > > It might even be powered all the time, and control > the rest of the PSU > via one of its output port lines. In which case the > power on/off switch > might send a keycode to the main unit, the 8042 > would detect this and > control the PSU appropriately. > > > Do you even know that the keyboard connecotr is the > same as on a PC? Is > it possible there's an extra pin dedicated to the > power on/off control? > Rememebr the PC keyboard connector has 5 pins, but > one of them was almost > never used (if's officially a reset output from the > PC). > > > > thinking I could tie something? to +5 volts in an > > attempt to determine if my pos even works. And how > far > > is it from reality to suggest all pc kbs are the > same > > except for their 8048/9/8748/9 programming? > > If by 'PC' you mean IBM compatible, well all clone > keyboards should lookl > the same to the host computer (byt be warned I've > found bugs here!). Anny > differences in the microcontroller program would be > to handle a > difference electical layout of the keys. > > -tony > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Feb 27 19:20:29 2006 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 20:20:29 -0500 Subject: Panasonic RL H1400 handheld computer In-Reply-To: References: <0278AA72-AAB5-4EC8-8C0D-CD8394923C6F@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20060227201540.04e84b48@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: > > > > I have a module that plugs into the side of the HHC and contains four > > ROMs containing the SNAP (Forth-like) programming language for the > >Interesting. If all 4 ROMs are needed at once, it can't possible run in >my RL H1400 -- it has only 3 internal sockets (I assume that's standard). It is, but the external ROMs are 4 @ 4K each, but the internal sockets support 8K ROMs, for a total of 24K internal storage. So, if I could ever get the SNAP Roms to function correctly internally (I think there's some addressing issues - unforch, I don't know 6502 all that well) you could have SNAP (16K) and MS Basic (8K) installed at the same time - assuming there's not some other wonky conflict there. >What else is in this module? Anything custom? Could it be recreated? AFAIK, it's just ROMs, but I've never seen one in captivity. WRT recreation: We're trying, but without more info (memory map, etc.) it's going to take a lot of time I don't have to try to get it all buggered into place. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Feb 28 01:48:46 2006 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 07:48:46 GMT Subject: ebay and money orders In-Reply-To: <4403A830.9060004@msm.umr.edu> References: <200602271611030669.09F9D9EA@10.0.0.252> <4403A830.9060004@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: In message <4403A830.9060004 at msm.umr.edu> jim stephens wrote: > you went into a verified "human at end of email" list for him, and he > made .02 selling your email to a spammer. Hm. I've had SpamAssassin installed for the best part of a year now. I don't even notice the spam any more - 99% of it gets dumped in my "SPAM" folder in Mpro. > I never even reply to these clowns anymore. Me neither. I only did it once - the time can be better spent doing more constructive things. > I'm not polite when I do reply, or what I say about them, you are to be > commended. :) -- Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G From classiccmp at popcorn.cx Tue Feb 28 05:04:54 2006 From: classiccmp at popcorn.cx (Stephen Edmonds) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 22:04:54 +1100 Subject: FREE: 2x DECstation in Melbourne, Australia Message-ID: <201ead640602280304k5356515o6a1a660b9b721825@mail.gmail.com> Greetings, I have a pair of DECstations and related parts that I don't forsee doing anything with in the near (or distant) future: * Complete DECstation 5000/133 with display, mouse and keyboard that powers up but has no OS. * DECstation 2100 system unit only. Unknown condition. * Storage expansion unit with one hard drive * Three other DIGITAL mice NIB (maybe for the 2100) * Another DA-15 to keyboard/mouse cable for the 5000 * Ethernet tranceiver Photos can be found at: http://popcorn.cx/computers/digital/decstation2100/ http://popcorn.cx/computers/digital/decstation5000/ Pickup is from Glen Waverley, preferably early evening later in the week. I hope someone else can get better use out of them than I have. Thanks, Stephen From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Feb 28 12:37:00 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:37:00 GMT Subject: SGI Indyzone CDs + older SGI demos In-Reply-To: Lyle Bickley "Re: SGI Indyzone CDs + older SGI demos" (Feb 17, 8:34) References: <103e0664fd0a472f8e6fb8417c45ec4b@valleyimplants.com> <200602170834.22503.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <10602281836.ZM9797@mindy.dunnington.plus.com> I was out of reach of emai when this was posted, but if anyone's still interested... On Feb 17 2006, 8:34, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Thursday 16 February 2006 20:49, compoobah at valleyimplants.com wrote: > > I have the IndiZone 3 CD- Don't know what the legal status is but as they > > gave them away for shipping . . . Another thing that would be nice to have > > would be IDO 4.1 for some of the older 4D IRI. > As soon as I get out from under a bunch of "real business" work, I'll check > with SGI on this matter. I have still have a few good connections internally > at SGI, so it's at least worth a shot. I have all (?) three Indyzone CDs (Tales From The Indizone, 5.2 edition, 812-8102-002, August 1993; Awesome Power In The Indyzone^2, Summer Edition 1994, 812-8111-002; and Final Impact In The Indizone^3, December 1995, 814-8111-003), and IDO 4.1.1 5/93, 812-0017-006. I also have lots of HotMix CDs. My website hasn't enough capacity for even one complete image, alas. But if anyone in the UK has a suggestion, I might loan them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bert at brothom.nl Tue Feb 28 13:20:08 2006 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 20:20:08 +0100 Subject: funny: write-only-memory (WOM) datasheet Message-ID: <4404A268.60303@brothom.nl> http://www.national.com/rap/Story/WOMorigin.html From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 28 14:12:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 12:12:45 -0800 Subject: an odd PC seen in a thrift store (?) In-Reply-To: <20060226124219.12288.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060226124219.12288.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200602281212450427.0E46084E@10.0.0.252> On 2/26/2006 at 4:42 AM Chris M wrote: >the talk of a peculiar USR pc made me remember this. >There used to be a (primarily) electronic junk store >in LI called Eldies (Edlies?) on Hempstead Tnpk in >Levittown I guess. Sitting there one day was an all in >one, IIRC, NCR unit that booted up to an a:> prompt. >It struck me as a weirdish dos semi compatible. It >didnt strike me as a PC4 or the nearly identical >Decision Mate (cpm). Pretty sure it was NCR, but eh >maybe it was NEC (definately NOT an APC, not quite >that big and heavy). Anyone have a clue? Some of my favorite keyboards are branded NCR (molded into the top) and come in both XT and AT types. Made in Germany by Cherry. So yeah, there were NCR XT- and AT-compatible desktop systems. I used to know what they were called, but now I'd have to dig a bit. Cheers, Chuck From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Feb 28 14:29:06 2006 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 15:29:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Paper tape Message-ID: I glommed onto a good deal of new canary 1 inch paper tape in rolls (about nine inch diameter), for Teletype ASR 33s. After taking what I want, I would like to trade the rest for unused punchcards or other mainframe debris. Enquire within. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From redodd at comcast.net Tue Feb 28 14:56:58 2006 From: redodd at comcast.net (Ralph E. Dodd) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 15:56:58 -0500 Subject: Compaq Portable II Rom N3 Message-ID: <00a701c63ca9$84cc9f20$6501a8c0@mainpc> Hello All, I have a nice Compaq Portable II that I just put a 1.44 3.5" drive into and now I see that the tech manual says that I need the upgrade rom N3 to see the drive. Any chance that anyone has this rom image or knows where to find it? Thanks a lot. Ralph From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 28 15:34:49 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 14:34:49 -0700 Subject: Data Books creeping their way online Message-ID: A while back I asked if anyone had an interest in my vintage (early 90s) data books. With librarything, I've decided to add them to my library by scanning the covers and creating entries for the databooks. Each of these entries is tagged "data book", with title, year and manufacturer for each one. I'll be adding the remainder of the 12 linear feet of shelf space over time. So if you see something there that you'd like more information about (chips covered, maybe scans of the table of contents), let me know. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 28 15:38:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 13:38:24 -0800 Subject: an odd PC seen in a thrift store (?) In-Reply-To: <20060226124219.12288.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060226124219.12288.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200602281338240929.0E947448@10.0.0.252> NCR had the PC6 - an 8088 box, the PC710, PC8 and PC810, which were 80286 systems, and the PC916, which was an 80386 box. They also had the 3390 and 3392 workstation PCs, which were 80286 units. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 28 17:42:35 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 23:42:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Panasonic RL H1400 handheld computer In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20060227201540.04e84b48@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Feb 27, 6 08:20:29 pm Message-ID: > > Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: > > > > > > I have a module that plugs into the side of the HHC and contains four > > > ROMs containing the SNAP (Forth-like) programming language for the > > > >Interesting. If all 4 ROMs are needed at once, it can't possible run in > >my RL H1400 -- it has only 3 internal sockets (I assume that's standard). > > It is, but the external ROMs are 4 @ 4K each, but the internal sockets > support 8K ROMs, for a total of 24K internal storage. So, if I could ever Wait a second. This muchine must support some kind of bank switching (the user manual makes a cryptic reference to it -- about the only not-totally-obvious thing in that manual). Now I am guessing here, I've not had the HHC that long, I've not really looked at it, and anyrway, I think that ASIC is involved... But it's probably that the internal ROM sockets are invidually bank-switched into the same area of the memory map. Maybe the sockets in the ROM module are as well (in which case SNAP would expect to be in 4 separate banks, not the 2 it'd be in if it was in internal ROMs), maybe the entire external ROM module is bank-swithced into a 16K space. But I would nopt be at all suprised if the bank-switching differed between the external module and the internal sockets. > get the SNAP Roms to function correctly internally (I think there's some > addressing issues - unforch, I don't know 6502 all that well) you could At the hardware level it's like most other 8 bit processors. 16 address lines, 65536 byte-sized locations. > have SNAP (16K) and MS Basic (8K) installed at the same time - assuming > there's not some other wonky conflict there. > > >What else is in this module? Anything custom? Could it be recreated? > > AFAIK, it's just ROMs, but I've never seen one in captivity. WRT > recreation: We're trying, but without more info (memory map, etc.) it's Does any technical info on this machine exist at all? Or am I going to have to discover some of it the hard way? > going to take a lot of time I don't have to try to get it all buggered into > place. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 28 17:48:21 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 23:48:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: funny: write-only-memory (WOM) datasheet In-Reply-To: <4404A268.60303@brothom.nl> from "Bert Thomas" at Feb 28, 6 08:20:08 pm Message-ID: > > http://www.national.com/rap/Story/WOMorigin.html For those who/ve not seen it, it was reprinted (without comments) amongst some genuine data sheets in the back of _The Student Manual for the Art of Electronics_. second edition. (FWIW, there are other jokes scattered about in that book...) -tony From jcwren at jcwren.com Tue Feb 28 20:15:22 2006 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 21:15:22 -0500 Subject: 2111 256x4 SRAM chip width? Message-ID: <440503BA.1010909@jcwren.com> Does anyone know if a 2111 256x4 SRAM is a 0.3" or 0.4" wide package? I've found a datasheet, but it doesn't list the actual width. It refers to a package type that I can't find any data one. Thanks, --jc From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 28 21:11:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 19:11:18 -0800 Subject: 2111 256x4 SRAM chip width? In-Reply-To: <440503BA.1010909@jcwren.com> References: <440503BA.1010909@jcwren.com> Message-ID: <200602281911180528.0FC53712@10.0.0.252> Got one right in front of me--0.3" --Chuck On 2/28/2006 at 9:15 PM J.C. Wren wrote: >Does anyone know if a 2111 256x4 SRAM is a 0.3" or 0.4" wide >package? I've found a datasheet, but it doesn't list the actual width. >It refers to a package type that I can't find any data one. 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