From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 1 00:14:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 22:14:21 -0800 Subject: UK PAL ==> US NTSC video convertor box? In-Reply-To: <456FAC17.2070604@yahoo.co.uk> References: <456D5C3E.1020105@yahoo.co.uk>, <001201c713e6$4ddbba40$0200a8c0@p2deskto>, <456FAC17.2070604@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <456F57BD.14624.112377C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Nov 2006 at 22:14, Jules Richardson wrote: > I wonder what the quality's like? Going PAL -> recoder -> NTSC obviously won't > be as good as native NTSC device output. Or, to put it another way, is the > average PCI TV tuner card as good quality as the tuner found in a good TV set? ...a silly question occurred to me. Why bother with remodulating? Why not just drive an RGB monitor with the demodulated output? I use such an arrangement to view PAL-recoded VHS tapes and resulting color is much better than local NTSC broadcast quality. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Dec 1 02:09:56 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 00:09:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Nov 2006, Richard wrote: > Has anyone considered decompilation (producing sources from binaries) > as a way of archiving system or application software that is defunct? > > I know lots of people have disassembled ROM listings and created > commented ASM listings from the ROM, but what about larger systems > where hand-disassembly is impractical? What binaries in particular are you thinking of? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From paul at frixxon.co.uk Fri Dec 1 03:36:07 2006 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 09:36:07 +0000 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: <004001c714dd$415adbf0$4804010a@uatempname> References: <004001c714dd$415adbf0$4804010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <456FF787.2060201@frixxon.co.uk> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > The RSX & RT-11 manuals I scanned had various pages with colour - > for RSX-11M & RSX-11MPLUS it matters because various sections > only apply under certain conditions and colour is used to > indicate that. > I scanned the entire manual in B&W on one scanner and then passed > the colour pages through a colour scanner: 600dpi @ 24-bit colour. > I know I should be able to get those pages down to a few 100KB > each but currently they're all still 24MB or so. I have post-processed some of those manuals to split the colours into layers, convert them to 1bpp and reassemble. This can make a spectacular difference to file size. For example, the original colour scan of AA-5286G-TC was 117 MiB. By splitting the black and red into layers, the size has come down to 7.9 MiB. I perform the image processing with a netpbm chain, and then assemble the PDF with a Perl script, using PDF::API2. -- Paul From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Dec 1 05:14:59 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 11:14:59 +0000 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456FA745.9000209@yahoo.co.uk> References: <456E5045.5010106@yahoo.co.uk> <456EC4B8.6000106@gjcp.net> <456FA745.9000209@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45700EB3.6020702@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> I still have my (almost) fully-loaded Atom > > I was hoping that by 'fully loaded' you meant that it had the BBC BASIC, > Econet and Colour boards :-) (I've never seen a real example of the > latter, although I know that there's at least one in the UK) No, but it does have an EPROM in the extension socket labelled "TOOLKIT ROM #A000" or something similar. I've never quite figured that one out. > You know, I have a feeling that you can get 7805 regulators that'll > handle 2A each - but maybe they weren't around when the Atom was new. > Even then, just doubling them up and hoping they'd share the load evenly > was always going to be a bit risky. I did toy with the idea of replacing all its 2114s with 6264s at one time. Now, of course, I don't think I would. Gordon. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 1 09:06:34 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 07:06:34 -0800 Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <502105.13914.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >From: Chris M >\> > >--- dwight elvey wrote: > > > Hi > > All that is fine except they state "no tripods". > > They are not > > specific about which type, just "NO". > > Dwight > > Yeah I guess I missed that part. But truthfully with >a bit of practice, you could still use a measly 1.2 >mpix cam to do the job. IT IS DOABLE TO ALL THE >NAYSAYERS. > Honestly, I can't see how some sort of support you >place against your chest would be against the rules >though. It's not really a tripod. You could bring it >with you, and if they say no, you can fall back on >your sense of aim. > Hi I do have a Canon with a stablizied lens. I'll bring that on my next trip. First time, I'll just look and take a few notes. They were specific about not copying entire documents but like I said, a glossory of the words would be all I need. I already have a fair understanding of how the Cat's token threaded code works. I can go from token to execution address and back. I can also go from token to dictionary name and back. That is what is needed for a high level decompiler. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC.? Get a free 90-day trial! http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/?href=http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail From irisworld at mac.com Fri Dec 1 10:11:55 2006 From: irisworld at mac.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 11:11:55 -0500 Subject: Does this qualify as vintage computer? Message-ID: <6B274EC7-9C87-4488-AE02-9921D4C32048@mac.com> Kind of neat: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15984363/ Rob Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From marvin at rain.org Fri Dec 1 10:35:48 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 08:35:48 -0800 Subject: decompilation as archiving? Message-ID: <457059E4.6B05CE66@rain.org> One of the programs available sometime in the late 1980's was a program called Sourcer that included a program called BIOS Pre-procesor for the PC, a ROM BIOS Listing generator (V Communications.) Neat program and while I am not a programmer, it was fun to disassemble the ROM BIOS routines and take a look. The BIOS listing had enough comments to make it useful. > From: Richard > > Has anyone considered decompilation (producing sources from binaries) > as a way of archiving system or application software that is defunct? > > I know lots of people have disassembled ROM listings and created > commented ASM listings from the ROM, but what about larger systems > where hand-disassembly is impractical? From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Dec 1 10:45:10 2006 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 11:45:10 -0500 Subject: decompilation as archiving? Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Nov 2006, Richard wrote: > Has anyone considered decompilation (producing sources from binaries) > as a way of archiving system or application software that is defunct? > > I know lots of people have disassembled ROM listings and created > commented ASM listings from the ROM, but what about larger systems > where hand-disassembly is impractical? Hand-disassembly is just the start. Vast machineries of automated disassembly/decompilation is used throughout the world in piracy and reverse-engineering activities. These sorts of tools have been in existence for at least 30 years, very likely 40 or 50 years. Related to these machinations are other tools used in reverse-engineering, including emulators, simulators, in-circuit emulators, logic analyzers, etc. All of these tools are also used in retro-computing as defined by many different groups: video gamers, emulation of historically important systems by academics, and everything in between. But what you describe goes way beyond simple archiving, and more into the tools that let you analyze and appreciate the code. If you can combine the code with the original designers, original users, original business documents, etc., then you are really on the road to a complete recreation of not only the code, but the world at the time. As a classic example, 25 years ago you could buy a tool that disassembled your CP/M binaries and turned them into *commented* sources. Not the original source, of course! Tim. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 11:19:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 10:19:57 -0700 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Dec 2006 09:36:07 +0000. <456FF787.2060201@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <456FF787.2060201 at frixxon.co.uk>, Paul Williams writes: > I have post-processed some of those manuals to split the colours into > layers, convert them to 1bpp and reassemble. This can make a spectacular > difference to file size. I have some DEC manuals that have this black & red text thing going on. What's the netpbm chain you used to split into 1bpp red and black layers? That's exactly what I was planning on doing, but its handy to leverage someone else's work in perfecting the command line :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 11:30:59 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 10:30:59 -0700 Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? Message-ID: A guy on ebay is selling something that looks suspiciously like the monitor portion of a terminal, but he is calling it a Hazeltine 'computer'. I asked him if it was a terminal and he responded saying: "Its a computer, not a monitor." Either he didn't understand my question (I didn't ask if it was a monitor, I asked if it was a terminal) or he had a brain-fart and typed "monitor" instead of terminal in his reply. The item is #300053801044 and has a detail photo of the model plate where it says model 1DTD155463. On the lower left rear is what looks suspiciously like two DB-25 style connectors, presumably one for the host and one for a printer. So, did Hazeltine ever make a computer or did they only make terminals? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 11:26:16 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 10:26:16 -0700 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Dec 2006 08:35:48 -0800. <457059E4.6B05CE66@rain.org> Message-ID: In article <457059E4.6B05CE66 at rain.org>, Marvin Johnston writes: > One of the programs available sometime in the late 1980's was a > program called Sourcer [...] Its still around and can work on Windows code now. There are a variety of such programs and this is what got me thinking about such a beast for vintage computers. Cases where the application source (or OS source!) has been lost. Someone asked me in private email why I'd want to do this -- I consider the source code just as an important historical artifact as the compiled binaries and physical hardware. For the same reason that people want schematics for vintage hardware, having source code for vintage software is also useful. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 11:27:58 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 10:27:58 -0700 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Dec 2006 00:09:56 -0800. Message-ID: In article , David Griffith writes: > What binaries in particular are you thinking of? Nothing in particular, I suppose. But if I wanted to study RT-11 in detail, hand disassembling it would be a major undertaking. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 1 11:44:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 09:44:07 -0800 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456FF967.12374.139AF6D4@cclist.sydex.com> > On Thu, 30 Nov 2006, Richard wrote: > > Has anyone considered decompilation (producing sources from > binaries) as a way of archiving system or application software that is > defunct? It depends. I've disassembled plenty of ROMs in my day and it's not too bad--just time consuming. Decompilation can be somewhat harder if you don't know the way the original compiler worked. Aggressive automatic optimization can really obscure the original code, especially when the optimizer can move code or schedule instruction issue times. A lot of the time, an optimization will result in a bit of clever code that not many programmers would consider writing, if they were working in assembly. On the other hand, compilers organize data and code in a predictable way, which does give you a leg up over a hunk of code generated from assembly. That being said, the occasional orphan application or operating system will yield its secrets only to decompilation/disassembly. Depending upon how littlel you understand the original program and its structure and optimization, the time required can be large. For modern processors, I own a copy of IDA Pro, probably one of the best (and wouldn't you know that it comes out of Russia!). The only worrisome nugget is that if you're in the USA, decompilation may be a violation of the DMCA--I'm not sure. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 1 11:57:56 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 09:57:56 -0800 Subject: decompilation as archiving? Message-ID: <45706D24.6040207@bitsavers.org> > But if I wanted to study RT-11 in > detail, hand disassembling it would be a major undertaking. Actually, a bad example, since sources are available. This is a worthwhile effort, but very time consuming. The DMCA also is an issue. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Dec 1 12:26:53 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 10:26:53 -0800 Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457073ED.8000507@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: > > >The item is #300053801044 and has a detail photo of the model plate >where it says model 1DTD155463. On the lower left rear is what looks >suspiciously like two DB-25 style connectors, presumably one for the >host and one for a printer. > > the Hazeltine 2000 terminal had a huge keyboard, with a couple of neon indicators on it, and you could kill someone with the keyboard box. The keyboard attached to the read with a db-25, so this box may have one connector for that. The other thing about this vintage of Hazeltine is that they used core memory for the display memory, so there is a hidden treasure here. Also, one can see what is on the screen from the last use until you clear the screen after powering it on, so if he has not done that, you will have an interesting thing to get from that. I wonder where a mouse and 5 1/4 drive attached to this as he says? that sounds way later than Hazeltine survived by my memory to be correct. At least I don't think even the Alto's were out before Hazeltine had ceased to make this style terminal. BTW the Hazeltine I recall with core dated from probably 68 or 69, if this is later it may have some other display memory. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 12:28:04 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 11:28:04 -0700 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Dec 2006 09:57:56 -0800. <45706D24.6040207@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <45706D24.6040207 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > > But if I wanted to study RT-11 in > > detail, hand disassembling it would be a major undertaking. > > Actually, a bad example, since sources are available. OK, ok, ok, not RT-11. > This is a worthwhile effort, but very time consuming. At this point its a thought experiment initiated by the knowledge that there are programs for x86 that disassemble and then reconstitute HLL source from the dissassembled binaries. Of course the HLL source doesn't have comments and most of the variable names aren't particularly meaningful, but its something. Maybe a better example would be something like reconstituting an application where the owners of the property rights are defunct (dead companies) or even the owners don't have the source anymore. > The DMCA also is an issue. A person once said to me "All the good laws were already written at the time of the founding of the Republic, so all that's left for congress to do is write bad ones". That about sums up my feelings on the DMCA. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 1 12:41:15 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 10:41:15 -0800 Subject: decompilation as archiving? Message-ID: <4570774B.4020308@bitsavers.org> > Maybe a better example would be something like reconstituting an > application where the owners of the property rights are defunct (dead > companies) or even the owners don't have the source anymore. Another example I can think of is where you have a piece of test equipment whose operation depends upon software for a computer that is no longer generally available. The Biomation CLAS 4000 logic analyzer, for example, is a SCSI device whose user interface runs on a 68000 Macintosh. Firmware/software for test equipment is one area in particular that points out the problem of devices becoming boat anchors because the code to control them wasn't preserved with the device. The trend in the past 10 years to produce subscription devices that depend on a host run by a company that no longer exists (Richochet, Catapult, Kerbango, ...) is another annoyance. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 12:34:11 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 11:34:11 -0700 Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Dec 2006 10:26:53 -0800. <457073ED.8000507@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: In article <457073ED.8000507 at msm.umr.edu>, jim stephens writes: > Richard wrote: > > >The item is #300053801044 and has a detail photo of the model plate > >where it says model 1DTD155463. On the lower left rear is what looks > >suspiciously like two DB-25 style connectors, presumably one for the > >host and one for a printer. > > > > > the Hazeltine 2000 terminal [...] Yes, but this is not a Hazeltine 2000. Its too modern for that. Plus the Hazeltine 2000 has a different enclosure and says in huge letters "Hazeltine 2000" on the front. So this is something different. I asked him to post a detail photo fo the connectors on the bottom left. Its always possible that Hazeltine did make some sort of weird computer. I just never heard of one and searching all the usual suspects (1000bit.net, old-computers.com, etc.) didn't turn up any computers under the Hazeltine brand. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 1 12:58:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 10:58:33 -0800 Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? In-Reply-To: <457073ED.8000507@msm.umr.edu> References: , <457073ED.8000507@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <45700AD9.27807.13DF1C2F@cclist.sydex.com> > Richard wrote: > >The item is #300053801044 and has a detail photo of the model plate > >where it says model 1DTD155463. On the lower left rear is what looks > >suspiciously like two DB-25 style connectors, presumably one for the > >host and one for a printer. I've got a Hazeltine 5.25" 96tpi DSDD CP/M diskette in my sample collection, so yes, they did make a computer. Probably along the lines of many other terminal manufacturers--added a Z80 and diskette controller to an existing terminal chassis. I think I see 3 connectors, not two. At any rate, this looks to be a notch up from the dreadful 1400 terminal that used tilde as a control character (!). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 1 13:04:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 11:04:31 -0800 Subject: New Cipher 525 tape drive on ePay Message-ID: <45700C3F.28363.13E49132@cclist.sydex.com> Probably one of the first "floppy tapes". Item 320056306946. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 1 13:59:58 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 19:59:58 -0000 (GMT) Subject: TI CC40 Message-ID: <1689.192.168.0.4.1165003198.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Hi Folks, Am I imagining things or was there a discussion very recently about Texas Instruments' little baby? Whilst browsing ebay uk last week I found one that was NIB so naturally I had to have it :) The seller works 5 minutes from my weekend home so it was even better. Pictures will be up once I've taken them. Serial is #384 so does anyone know how many escaped from Ti Labs? Or did they use a random serial numbering scheme..... Ta, -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 1 14:09:13 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 12:09:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: TI CC40 In-Reply-To: <1689.192.168.0.4.1165003198.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> from Witchy at "Dec 1, 6 07:59:58 pm" Message-ID: <200612012009.kB1K9DeS010480@floodgap.com> > Am I imagining things or was there a discussion very recently about Texas > Instruments' little baby? Whilst browsing ebay uk last week I found one > that was NIB so naturally I had to have it :) The seller works 5 minutes > from my weekend home so it was even better. Fun little units -- too bad mass storage on them is pretty much a loss. If only that wafertape drive had gotten more reliable or widely produced ... I have a CC40 and the printer and RS-232. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. -- Jack Paar ---------------- From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Fri Dec 1 15:30:29 2006 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 22:30:29 +0100 Subject: Atom Toolkit. Was: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <200612011805.kB1I4mxV056915@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612011805.kB1I4mxV056915@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45709EF5.2020302@xs4all.nl> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > No, but it does have an EPROM in the extension socket labelled "TOOLKIT > ROM #A000" or something similar. I've never quite figured that one out. > > Maybee this Atom toolkit: http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/atom/toolkit.txt Fred Jan From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 17:49:59 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 16:49:59 -0700 Subject: Corporate genealogy? Message-ID: Has anyone attempted to make a "big picture" view of the vendor landscape by creating a chart showing spin-offs and acquisitions of various vendors? I find this information sprinkled throughout Wikipedia, but no attempt at creating a "big picture" view. Has anyone done such a thing? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 1 17:20:52 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 23:20:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456FA745.9000209@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 30, 6 09:53:41 pm Message-ID: > > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > I still have my (almost) fully-loaded Atom > > I was hoping that by 'fully loaded' you meant that it had the BBC BASIC, > Econet and Colour boards :-) (I've never seen a real example of the latter, > although I know that there's at least one in the UK) What does the colour board look like, and where does it fit? > You know, I have a feeling that you can get 7805 regulators that'll handle 2A There's the 78S05 (2A ,in a plastic TO220 pacakge, like the plain 7805) and the 78H05 (5A, in a metal TO3 pacakge) > There's a lot of Atoms out there that have had the regulators bypassed, no > sticker added, and then subsequently had 9V shoved through them :( s/through/across/ Ouch. I am sure that cooks a few ICs... -tony From rcini at optonline.net Fri Dec 1 17:55:47 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 18:55:47 -0500 Subject: Corporate genealogy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003b01c715a4$390f6ac0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> I know there was one done about semiconductor companies descended from Shockley but it was only current through about 2001 and it didn't cover every company. I might have a copy of that at work. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 6:50 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Corporate genealogy? Has anyone attempted to make a "big picture" view of the vendor landscape by creating a chart showing spin-offs and acquisitions of various vendors? I find this information sprinkled throughout Wikipedia, but no attempt at creating a "big picture" view. Has anyone done such a thing? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wizard at voyager.net Fri Dec 1 18:39:50 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 19:39:50 -0500 Subject: Gentle Cleaners Used on Old Computers Message-ID: <1165019991.17062.89.camel@linux.site> Hey, all, I put together this list from the "Green Goo" thread. If anyone has more good information about various cleaners, or procurement information about ones listed, I would appreciate hearing about it, and I'll update the list. It could be handy -- maybe even a FAQ answer. Sincerely, Warren Wolfe ********************************************************** Gentle Cleaners Used on Old Computers. Caig DeOxIt - Remove oxidation from electronics, and clean - http://www.tubesandmore.com/ Caig ProGold - Seal and lube circuit card edge fingers, etc. - Radio Shack 64.4338 http://www.tubesandmore.com/ GooGone - Cleans off old adhesive residue. Mr. Clean - Cleans stains, discoloration, and magic marker from painted metal. Magic Eraser Afta - Cleans glues and residues - Home Depot CaiLube MCL - Cleans and lubes potentiometers, especially. - http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.183/.f From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 1 18:48:23 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 16:48:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Does this qualify as vintage computer? In-Reply-To: <6B274EC7-9C87-4488-AE02-9921D4C32048@mac.com> Message-ID: <845602.22347.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Robert Borsuk wrote: > Kind of neat: > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15984363/ > > > Rob Hey, who's interested in developing an FPGA implementation of that hunk of garbage LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL. O me. O my. Phew. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 1 19:06:58 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 17:06:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? In-Reply-To: <45700AD9.27807.13DF1C2F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <777655.88883.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got a Hazeltine 5.25" 96tpi DSDD CP/M diskette > in my sample > collection, so yes, they did make a computer. > Probably along the > lines of many other terminal manufacturers--added a > Z80 and diskette > controller to an existing terminal chassis. Yes it depends also on what you want to call a computer. Most of us want to pump diskettes into it and whatnot, but I opened up an IBM terminal some years ago and found alot of the guts of a typical peecee. No, it probably didn't have any provision for connecting anything but the k/b and display, but it just goes to show how definitions can be open to interpretation. I'd like to get my hands on one of those. Thought it might be fun to see what it would take to make a full fledged pc out of it. A new chip there...solder a few jumpers there...;). And the thing was capable of analog color IIRC. I don't recall their being an intensity input. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From ssj152 at centurytel.net Fri Dec 1 19:12:38 2006 From: ssj152 at centurytel.net (Stuart Johnson) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 19:12:38 -0600 Subject: Lyle Bickley: Update on TSX+ ?? Message-ID: <001001c715ae$f5308900$fa00a8c0@badddog> Lyle, It has been a while since you updated the Classiccmp list with the status of your project to make TSX+ available to hobbyists. Can you tell us where the project is at the present time? Regards, Stuart Johnson From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 1 19:17:10 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 19:17:10 -0600 Subject: Gentle Cleaners Used on Old Computers References: <1165019991.17062.89.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <001a01c715af$99076fd0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Warren wrote.... > I put together this list from the "Green Goo" thread. There is an article in the classiccmp knowledgebase about cleaners that lists most of what you have there. I think your article would make a good addition to that, if you don't mind. Jay West From evan at snarc.net Fri Dec 1 19:24:36 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 20:24:36 -0500 Subject: TI CC40 In-Reply-To: <200612012009.kB1K9DeS010480@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <002901c715b0$a17f4b50$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I also have one that's new-in-box and it's most definitely for sale. Cash preferred but interesting trades considered. - Evan -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser [mailto:spectre at floodgap.com] Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:09 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: TI CC40 > Am I imagining things or was there a discussion very recently about > Texas Instruments' little baby? Whilst browsing ebay uk last week I > found one that was NIB so naturally I had to have it :) The seller > works 5 minutes from my weekend home so it was even better. Fun little units -- too bad mass storage on them is pretty much a loss. If only that wafertape drive had gotten more reliable or widely produced ... I have a CC40 and the printer and RS-232. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. -- Jack Paar ---------------- From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 1 19:25:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 17:25:31 -0800 Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? In-Reply-To: <777655.88883.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <45700AD9.27807.13DF1C2F@cclist.sydex.com>, <777655.88883.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4570658B.3763.15415FC4@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Dec 2006 at 17:06, Chris M wrote: > Yes it depends also on what you want to call a > computer. Most of us want to pump diskettes into it > and whatnot, but I opened up an IBM terminal some > years ago and found alot of the guts of a typical > peecee.... Does the term "thin client" sound familiar? :) Even when a manufacturer had a terminal, some didn't bother with the additional CPU and just used the same one used to run the display. Before I had diskette drives, I ran an old Beehive editing terminal with both a printer and a dual cassette (paper-tape substitute kind) deck. I could do word processing of a sort on it; was it a computer? Seems so to me. It had an 8008 CPU and shift-register memory. I coiuldn't print with it, but that was my shortcoming--I didn't have the proper printer for it--it had a printer port and a "print" key. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 19:41:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 18:41:55 -0700 Subject: Corporate genealogy? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Dec 2006 18:55:47 -0500. <003b01c715a4$390f6ac0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: In article <003b01c715a4$390f6ac0$6401a8c0 at bbrrooqpbzx6tz>, "Richard A. Cini" writes: > I know there was one done about semiconductor companies descended from > Shockley but it was only current through about 2001 and it didn't cover > every company. I might have a copy of that at work. I'm willing to bet that these have been done for individual 'trees', but that there's no extant diagrammed forest of the entire sphere of computing. This sounds like something that would be a good use of a wiki because everyone could contribute pieces they know... For instance I know of one company that was in Salt Lake which went through all of these incarnations: BTS, Philips Digital Video Systems, Thomson Digital Video Systems, Bausch Television Systems, and a couple others I can't remember right now. In the distant past (1970s/1980s) they made the digital hardware box that was used to create the Dire Straits music video "Money for Nothin'". and later they made a digital video server product that was the backbone (and probably still is) of the Home and Garden Channel. It served *uncompressed* broadcast quality video. No compression artifacts! Then there's Evans & Sutherland, which is still around, but has sold units to Parametric Technology Corporation and Rockwell-Collins. In addition, ex-E&S employees have founded Silicon Graphics, Inc. (James Clark), Adobe (John Warnock) and a couple others IIRC. Then just think of the cloud of companies surrounding the giants like DEC, IBM and Hewlett-Packard. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From evan at snarc.net Fri Dec 1 19:44:59 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 20:44:59 -0500 Subject: OFFICIAL VCF EAST 4.0 date(s) Message-ID: <002d01c715b3$7a7166d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> This just in: we picked Saturday, June 9, and (probably) Sunday, June 10 as well. Hopefully we will determine the need for a second day soon. Someone, somewhere, will probably have a graduation-related conflict. To that person(s), I apologize, but we did our best. East 3.0 was awesome, but I gaurantee that East 4.0 will kick 3's ass!! - Evan From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 19:45:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 18:45:40 -0700 Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Dec 2006 17:06:58 -0800. <777655.88883.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <777655.88883.qm at web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > Yes it depends also on what you want to call a > computer. Most of us want to pump diskettes into it > and whatnot, but I opened up an IBM terminal some > years ago and found alot of the guts of a typical > peecee. No, it probably didn't have any provision for > connecting anything but the k/b and display, but it > just goes to show how definitions can be open to > interpretation. They say the microprocessor was invented to make terminals inexpensive. For my purposes, terminal applies to anything designed to act as such. Most have microprocessors with RAM and ROM, which makes up a basic computer system. But they aren't designed to be used as end-user computers, they're designed to talk serial I/O to some remote computer if they're a terminal. That's why a regular PC with terminal emulation software for the serial port doesn't count as a terminal by my definition :-). > I'd like to get my hands on one of those. Thought it > might be fun to see what it would take to make a full > fledged pc out of it. A new chip there...solder a few > jumpers there...;). And the thing was capable of > analog color IIRC. I don't recall their being an > intensity input. Just so everyone knows, I'm not interested in a Hazeltine computer, so if anyone wants it they won't be bidding against me :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wizard at voyager.net Fri Dec 1 19:50:45 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 20:50:45 -0500 Subject: Gentle Cleaners Used on Old Computers In-Reply-To: <001a01c715af$99076fd0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <1165019991.17062.89.camel@linux.site> <001a01c715af$99076fd0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1165024245.17062.125.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-12-01 at 19:17 -0600, Jay West wrote: > Warren wrote.... > > I put together this list from the "Green Goo" thread. > > There is an article in the classiccmp knowledgebase about cleaners that > lists most of what you have there. I think your article would make a good > addition to that, if you don't mind. Not at all, although calling it an article is a fancy bit of exaggeration... Rights are hereby granted to any cctalk subscriber. Feel free to place it in the KB, and don't feel bad about only taking the non-redundant information. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From bfoley at dcs.warwick.ac.uk Fri Dec 1 20:10:37 2006 From: bfoley at dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Brian Foley) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 02:10:37 +0000 Subject: Corporate genealogy? In-Reply-To: <003b01c715a4$390f6ac0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <003b01c715a4$390f6ac0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <20061202021036.GA29252@mail.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 06:55:47PM -0500, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I know there was one done about semiconductor companies descended from > Shockley but it was only current through about 2001 and it didn't cover > every company. I might have a copy of that at work. A friend pointed me at a chart on Wikipedia of some of the mergers that led to BAE Systems. It includes some of the British computer companies such as GEC, Ferranti, and English Electric: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BAE_Systems_evolution.png Interesting to see UK aerospace following the seeming unavoidable pattern of technology comanies in the UK: lots of engineering smarts, but not so effective management... Cheers, Brian. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 1 20:32:15 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 18:32:15 -0800 Subject: Gentle Cleaners Used on Old Computers In-Reply-To: <1165019991.17062.89.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: >From: Warren Wolfe > >Hey, all, > > I put together this list from the "Green Goo" thread. If anyone has >more good information about various cleaners, or procurement information >about ones listed, I would appreciate hearing about it, and I'll update >the list. It could be handy -- maybe even a FAQ answer. > > Sincerely, > > Warren Wolfe > >********************************************************** > > Gentle Cleaners Used on Old Computers. > > > >Caig DeOxIt - Remove oxidation from electronics, and clean > - http://www.tubesandmore.com/ > >Caig ProGold - Seal and lube circuit card edge fingers, etc. > - Radio Shack 64.4338 > http://www.tubesandmore.com/ > >GooGone - Cleans off old adhesive residue. > >Mr. Clean - Cleans stains, discoloration, and magic >marker from painted metal. >Magic Eraser > >Afta - Cleans glues and residues > - Home Depot > >CaiLube MCL - Cleans and lubes potentiometers, especially. > - >http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.183/.f Hi I've used googone on some plastics. It seems to remove the oxide surface without damaging the plastic. Do use with caution and test on a hidden surface first. Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Dec 1 21:46:03 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 22:46:03 -0500 Subject: Disk image conversions? In-Reply-To: <003b01c7134e$c96206d0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <200612020251.kB22pKKZ032340@hosting.monisys.ca> > Here's an interesting one. I have several disk images for the > Tandy 2000 that had been made with TeleDisk. One of the images is bad for > some reason (must be truncated; won't get past track 30; complains that > target disk drive is not ready when it reaches T30). The original disk is > not available. > > I've done the basic troubleshooting on the drive and media > (other images made with same new floppy diskette and drive work fine; > swapped drive and media) to eliminate them from the failure tree. > > Even though TeleDisk seems to write to track 30 just fine, the > disk is unusable. This is odd because it's an MS-DOS format (although 80T > 9S) so all of the directory and media parameter info is at the front of the > disk rather than the back. > > Is there anything I can do with this partial disk image to > retrieve at least some of the info? I know this won't help you with this problem, however I'd like to point out that this is exactly the reason I created ImageDisk - ImageDisk is a replacement for TeleDisk that has an open and documented disk image format, utilities for extracting/merging tracks, converting to/from raw binary, and many options to help accomodate those times when you need to do exceptional data recovery. Full source code to the main program and utilties is also available. The whole point behind ImageDisk is to give you the information and tools you need to attempt data recovery by "any and all other means" if you find yourself in a situation like this. Regarding your teledisk image - is it possible that the original disk was copy protected, or for some other reason had a non-standard format? - If for example, there were a single-density track in the middle of it (say on track 30) - MANY PC's would be unable to recreate the disk and might exhibit symptoms similar to what you describe. Chuck wrote a very useful TESTSD program which helps identify PCs which can do SD - I have it posted on my site. I've also found that for some formats it can help a lot to slow the drive slightly - This is common in Cromemco formats - probably not the case with a DOS format, but it is a Tandy variation and you never know - worth a try. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Dec 1 22:23:17 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 22:23:17 -0600 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <200611292344.kATNicxL027839@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611292344.kATNicxL027839@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4570FFB5.5000407@brutman.com> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > --- Jim Leonard wrote: >> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >>>>> How about the Sega MegaDrive/Genesis? That ran > a >> 68000 and Z80. >> >> There have been many multi-cpu consoles; the Sega >> Saturn had two Hitachi >> RISC CPUs for core processing, plus a host of othe > r >> stuff for CDROM, >> display, sound... The PlayStation 2 is also >> dual-CPU. The PlayStation 3 >> is a Cell monster, 7 cores you can play with, > > wrong!!! Some places state 9, but the last > *official* CPU diagram I saw has 8 cores. > One main core (slightly larger than the others) > and 7 co-cores. (Does that make sense?) More like, it depends. A standard Cell ASIC has a dual threaded PowerPC 64 core and eight SPU cores. On a Playstation only seven functioning SPU cores are guaranteed/required. So depending on how you count, you can get 8, 9, or 10 cores. I'd go with 9 -> 8 SPU and a dual thread PPC. Mike From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Dec 1 22:27:38 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 22:27:38 -0600 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <200611292344.kATNicxL027839@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611292344.kATNicxL027839@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <457100BA.2050505@brutman.com> On the old standup arcade games multiple CPUs are common. Williams Defender uses two 6809 CPUs - one just for sound, and one for everything else. Williams Joust is more complicated and uses four 6809s. Mike From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 22:39:45 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 21:39:45 -0700 Subject: Corporate genealogy? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Dec 2006 02:10:37 +0000. <20061202021036.GA29252@mail.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: In article <20061202021036.GA29252 at mail.dcs.warwick.ac.uk>, Brian Foley writes: > A friend pointed me at a chart on Wikipedia of some of the mergers that > led to BAE Systems. [...] A nice example, thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Dec 1 21:37:49 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 21:37:49 -0600 Subject: OT: South Pole was: Re: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <200611160418.kAG4IN5o048363@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611160418.kAG4IN5o048363@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 22:18 -0600 11/15/06, Sridhar wrote: >90 degrees south always points to the South Pole. It doesn't always >point to the same place, though. The precession of the Earth's >rotational axis causes the location of all coordinates on the Earth's >surface to shift by a small amount all the time. It's most easily >noticed at the poles. Barring smaller corrections of much shorter >period and magnitude, the Earth's axial precession occurs on a period of >about 26,000 years. All true, but partially unconnected and somewhat oversimplified. Earth's angular momentum vector precesses about the normal to the ecliptic (the plane of Earth's orbit) in a cone with half-angle 23.5 (or so) degrees and with a period of 26,000 years. This is directly driven by the lunar and solar tidal torque on the equatorial bulge of the Earth, which is in turn caused by the Earth's rotation. For a rigid body, this could happen without any change in the location of the "pole" as seen on the surface of the body. Independent of that (or of any external torque), the point at which the Earth's angular velocity (not momentum) vector intersects the surface, which is the instantaneous pole, wanders around on the surface. This is due to several things. One is the fact that the angular momentum and angular velocity may not be perfectly aligned. (Even a rigid body will do this if it is not spun along either its major or minor principle axis of inertia. This is the "polhode" motion of a freely rotating body as seen from the body.) Another is the fact that the Earth is continually rearranging its mass distribution by rainfall, earthquakes, ice-sheet melting, etc. etc., thus moving its principle axes of inertia around and causing the first condition to apply. (These mass redistributions are in turn driven primarily by the effects of incoming solar radiation, but this is an indirect effect of the sun on the system.) Another cause is due to the fact that the "solid" Earth is really a composite system, with many different solid and liquid components, many of which may be rotating with respect to one another and causing various interactions. I think I will stop there, acknowledging that I'm still oversimplifying. I will however add that I at one point in the early 1980's wrote a program in Fortran on a PDP-11 to display the current and predicted (by the IERS) Earth instantaneous pole coordinates on a Tektronix 4025 graphics terminal, erasing and re-drawing the predicted pole with every new update of the current pole. It was interesting to see how consistently off the predictions were. Sorry for the delayed-gratification nature of this post; I'm just getting back from 2 weeks' vacation. -- Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) 210-379-4635 Dwarf Phone, 210-522-6025 Office Phone From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 1 23:14:21 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 21:14:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries Message-ID: <693592.32332.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> someone set me strait if Im way off - is an emulator, like MAME in essence a parser essentially? I bet theres probably more to it then that though... --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > On the old standup arcade games multiple CPUs are common. > > Williams Defender uses two 6809 CPUs - one just for sound, and one for > everything else. > > Williams Joust is more complicated and uses four 6809s. > > > > Mike > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From evan at snarc.net Fri Dec 1 23:30:51 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 00:30:51 -0500 Subject: TI CC40 In-Reply-To: <002901c715b0$a17f4b50$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <000001c715d3$0882efb0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Nevermind. It's sold! -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:25 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: TI CC40 I also have one that's new-in-box and it's most definitely for sale. Cash preferred but interesting trades considered. - Evan -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser [mailto:spectre at floodgap.com] Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:09 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: TI CC40 > Am I imagining things or was there a discussion very recently about > Texas Instruments' little baby? Whilst browsing ebay uk last week I > found one that was NIB so naturally I had to have it :) The seller > works 5 minutes from my weekend home so it was even better. Fun little units -- too bad mass storage on them is pretty much a loss. If only that wafertape drive had gotten more reliable or widely produced ... I have a CC40 and the printer and RS-232. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. -- Jack Paar ---------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 2 00:17:54 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 22:17:54 -0800 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries Message-ID: > Williams Defender uses two 6809 CPUs - one just for sound, and one for > everything else. > > Williams Joust is more complicated and uses four > 6809s. nope.. Defender and Joust both have a 6809 and a 6808 for sound http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=598&gid=1044 From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 00:39:05 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 01:39:05 -0500 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why wouldn't somebody make their own computer board that pools RCA1802, TMS9900, 6800, 6809, 8085, 6502, z80, 8086, z8000, 68000 ... all together. It shouldn't be too difficult. Then this discuss will be settled once and for ever. vax, 9000 From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 00:39:24 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 01:39:24 -0500 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: sorry I mean discussion On 12/2/06, 9000 VAX wrote: > > Why wouldn't somebody make their own computer board that pools RCA1802, > TMS9900, 6800, 6809, 8085, 6502, z80, 8086, z8000, 68000 ... all together. > It shouldn't be too difficult. Then this discuss will be settled once and > for ever. > > vax, 9000 > From glenatacme at aol.com Fri Dec 1 14:12:59 2006 From: glenatacme at aol.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 15:12:59 -0500 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <455213B5.4090402@yahoo.com> References: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> <455213B5.4090402@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> Al Hartman wrote: > My friend and I have come across a large stock of working ZX-81 > computers that are missing keyboards. And a stock of others with bad > keyboards. > > These are a lot from a former Sinclair Repair Center. > > We'd like to get these working 100% again for sale along with the > remainder of the ZX-81 kits from Zebra Systems. > > BTW... Stewart only has a couple hundred left, and when they're gone... > that's it! > > Does anyone know of a source for these keyboards, or know of a company > that could make them up? Al -- At this late date it would probably be easier to design and build an interface so that a common PS/2-type keyboard could be used, along with some self-adhesive key-top stickers. Glen 0/0 From wizard at voyager.net Sat Dec 2 04:15:53 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 05:15:53 -0500 Subject: OT: South Pole was: Re: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: References: <200611160418.kAG4IN5o048363@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1165054553.6827.9.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-12-01 at 21:37 -0600, Mark Tapley wrote: > At 22:18 -0600 11/15/06, Sridhar wrote: > . . . indirect effect of the sun on the system.) > Another cause is due to the fact that the "solid" Earth > is really a composite system, with many different solid > and liquid components, many of which may be rotating > with respect to one another and causing various > interactions. When speaking of global phenomena, I like to look at the "big picture," as it were. And the big picture is that the object most of us here would recognize as most similar to planet earth is a ball of solder with a scum of rosin remains and dust floating on the surface. Make the molten part liquid iron, and the scum granite, and you have an accurate (within engineering tolerances) scale model of the planet. Float it in vacuum for a few billion years, and see what develops. > I think I will stop there, acknowledging that > I'm still oversimplifying. > . . . > Sorry for the delayed-gratification nature of this post; I'm > just getting back from 2 weeks' vacation. Okay... It's good to know you are back -- some of the most recent deliveries of dwarfs had some samples that were out-of-tolerance. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From billdeg at degnanco.com Sat Dec 2 08:38:02 2006 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 09:38:02 -0500 Subject: HP Time-Shared Basic Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20061202093406.032f0e40@mail.degnanco.net> I was recenlty given a copy of the "A Quick Reference to HP Time-Shared BASIC" Printed 9/1969. It's a pamphlet-sized doc. If anyone would like a copy and it does not already exist on the Internet I will make a PDF and put it up on my web site. The system associated with the guide is the Hewlet-Packard 2000A. Bill D From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 2 09:18:00 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 10:18:00 -0500 Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 1, 2006, at 12:30 PM, Richard wrote: > A guy on ebay is selling something that looks suspiciously like the > monitor portion of a terminal, but he is calling it a Hazeltine > 'computer'. I asked him if it was a terminal and he responded saying: > > "Its a computer, not a monitor." > > Either he didn't understand my question (I didn't ask if it was a > monitor, I asked if it was a terminal) or he had a brain-fart and > typed "monitor" instead of terminal in his reply. > > The item is #300053801044 and has a detail photo of the model plate > where it says model 1DTD155463. On the lower left rear is what looks > suspiciously like two DB-25 style connectors, presumably one for the > host and one for a printer. This is the monitor half of a Hazeltine Esprit terminal. I had one on my desk for many years; it is hands-down the best terminal that I have EVER used. I'd just about kill for one now, but I've not been able to find one. Sadly, this one is useless because the keyboard is missing. *sniffle* -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 2 09:23:17 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 10:23:17 -0500 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: <4570774B.4020308@bitsavers.org> References: <4570774B.4020308@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Dec 1, 2006, at 1:41 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > The trend in the past 10 years to produce subscription devices that > depend on a host run by a company that no longer exists (Richochet, > Catapult, Kerbango, ...) is another annoyance. There's an easy way to make that approach extinct: Educate people on the evils of such nonsense and convince them not to buy such products. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 2 09:27:55 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 10:27:55 -0500 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 1, 2006, at 12:26 PM, Richard wrote: > Someone asked me in private email why I'd want to do this -- I > consider the source code just as an important historical artifact as > the compiled binaries and physical hardware. For the same reason that > people want schematics for vintage hardware, having source code for > vintage software is also useful. Not only useful, but highly educational. A lot of this sort of stuff was written back in the days when writing software actually took some *skills*. Now any kid with a Windows box can slap together an application in a few hours. Sure, it'll eat hundreds of megabytes of RAM, be slower than pissing tar, and probably crash a lot, but then that seems to describe some of the world's most widely deployed software, so who's counting? Back in the early days of computing, some of the *smartest people on the planet* worked on this stuff. Now, though, every drooling moron who thinks he can make more money writing Windows apps than flipping burgers can pirate a copy of Microsoft's Visual Whatever-it- is-this-week garbage and is suddenly a "programmer". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 2 09:35:20 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 10:35:20 -0500 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> References: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> <455213B5.4090402@yahoo.com> <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> Message-ID: On Dec 1, 2006, at 3:12 PM, Glen Goodwin wrote: >> My friend and I have come across a large stock of working ZX-81 >> computers that are missing keyboards. And a stock of others with >> bad keyboards. >> These are a lot from a former Sinclair Repair Center. >> We'd like to get these working 100% again for sale along with the >> remainder of the ZX-81 kits from Zebra Systems. >> BTW... Stewart only has a couple hundred left, and when they're >> gone... that's it! >> Does anyone know of a source for these keyboards, or know of a >> company that could make them up? > > At this late date it would probably be easier to design > and build an interface so that a common PS/2-type keyboard > could be used, along with some self-adhesive key-top stickers. This is very true of course...but (apparently I missed Al Hartman's earlier message about this) I know of a company that can make these keyboards. A few years ago, I designed a commercial product which had a membrane keyboard. A few photos of it in development (with those membrane keyboards) can be seen at: http://www.neurotica.com/albums/qyx/ I don't recall the name of the company that did the keyboards, but I can dig it up from my notes if desired. They are here in Florida, and I recall them having been highly capable and easy to work with. We can probably make exact ZX81/TS1000 keyboard replicas through that company. I sure wouldn't mind getting ahold of one or two of those ZX81 kits. Will someone be making them available at some point? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Dec 2 05:39:59 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 11:39:59 +0000 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> References: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> <455213B5.4090402@yahoo.com> <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> Message-ID: <4571660F.2000602@gjcp.net> Glen Goodwin wrote: > Al Hartman wrote: >> My friend and I have come across a large stock of working ZX-81 >> computers that are missing keyboards. And a stock of others with bad >> keyboards. >> >> These are a lot from a former Sinclair Repair Center. >> >> We'd like to get these working 100% again for sale along with the >> remainder of the ZX-81 kits from Zebra Systems. >> >> BTW... Stewart only has a couple hundred left, and when they're >> gone... that's it! >> >> Does anyone know of a source for these keyboards, or know of a company >> that could make them up? > > Al -- > > At this late date it would probably be easier to design > and build an interface so that a common PS/2-type keyboard > could be used, along with some self-adhesive key-top stickers. Seems like overkill - the interface would need more processor power than the ZX81, most likely. There *must* be a company that makes membrane keyboards, and will do a shortish run. I'd certainly donate a working-ish keyboard to get some made up... As an aside, I believe a ZX Spectrum membrane is "close enough" if you extend one of the sockets so it reaches. Gordon. From modi029 at terra.com.br Sat Dec 2 07:03:31 2006 From: modi029 at terra.com.br (modi029) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 10:03:31 -0300 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: Hi Henry, I'm looking for Hardware documentation on rtVAX1000 and found your note on the net. Do you know where can I found such info? Kind regards, Izo Camacho. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 2 09:52:16 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 10:52:16 -0500 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <4571660F.2000602@gjcp.net> References: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> <455213B5.4090402@yahoo.com> <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> <4571660F.2000602@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <6BAB01A1-DCF4-4BCA-B8A7-25A1DD5B8F81@neurotica.com> On Dec 2, 2006, at 6:39 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> At this late date it would probably be easier to design >> and build an interface so that a common PS/2-type keyboard >> could be used, along with some self-adhesive key-top stickers. > > Seems like overkill - the interface would need more processor power > than the ZX81, most likely. Nah, not even close. In the unit I mentioned in my other message on this topic, the keyboard encoder processor (which also did a bunch of other housekeeping) was a PIC16C65B clocked at 32KHz. (no typo there) > There *must* be a company that makes membrane keyboards, and will > do a shortish run. I'd certainly donate a working-ish keyboard to > get some made up... Yup, I mentioned one in my other message. We can get this done. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 2 10:00:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 09:00:43 -0700 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Dec 2006 10:27:55 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Dave McGuire writes: > Back in the early days of computing, some of the *smartest people > on the planet* worked on this stuff. Now, though, every drooling > moron who thinks he can make more money writing Windows apps than > flipping burgers can pirate a copy of Microsoft's Visual Whatever-it- > is-this-week garbage and is suddenly a "programmer". The most recent iteration of their development environment is permanently free :-). So there's no need to pirate Microsoft's Visual Whatever-it-is-this-week. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 2 10:02:47 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 09:02:47 -0700 Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Dec 2006 10:18:00 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Dave McGuire writes: > [...] Sadly, this one is useless because the > keyboard is missing. Only if you don't have a keyboard :-). For instance, I just purchased another Megatek Whizzard *base* sans keyboard and monitor so that I'd have a spare for the Whizzard I purchased last year. To most people it would be worthless because it doesn't have the keyboard (which is a very interesting giant keyboard :-) or monitor, but to me its useful as a source of spares. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Dec 2 10:26:13 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 10:26:13 -0600 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4571A925.30101@brutman.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > Williams Defender uses two 6809 CPUs - one just for > sound, and one for > > everything else. > > > > Williams Joust is more complicated and uses four > > 6809s. > > nope.. > > Defender and Joust both have a 6809 and a 6808 for sound > > http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=598&gid=1044 > > > > My goof .. just 2 CPUs on the Joust. But I had to open the cabinet and count for myself. :-) www.klov.com has schematics posted for the Joust in PDF format if anybody is interested. A bit hard to read, but very nice to find online anyway. Mike From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 2 10:35:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 08:35:51 -0800 Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <45713AE7.4458.1882C9EF@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Dec 2006 at 10:18, Dave McGuire wrote: > This is the monitor half of a Hazeltine Esprit terminal. I had > one on my desk for many years; it is hands-down the best terminal > that I have EVER used. I'd just about kill for one now, but I've not > been able to find one. Sadly, this one is useless because the > keyboard is missing. I'm not sure if I'm ready to retreat from the "stick a CPU/floppy PCB into a terminal" notion on this one yet. The seller seems to be pretty sure that this was a computer, not just a terminal. If I have time this weekend (doubtful, but I can dream), I'll dig out the Hazeltine sample floppy and see what it says about what machine it might have been associated with. Cheers, Chuck From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 11:15:45 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 18:15:45 +0100 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165079746.30774.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-10-30 at 15:44 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > The whole line of > > 20 years of IBM muscle computers is basically gone. The same is true > > for the Burroughs and Univac machines of the same era. > > It is MUCH worse for Burroughs and Univac. IBM was sold in such high numbers > that the probability of some surviving was higher. Both Burroughs and Univac > had an active "scorched earth" policies for systems in the field to keep > them out of the hands of resellers. I don't know of any Burroughs 5xxx/6xxx > systems or Univac 1100's that still exist. There *is* a complete UNIVAC 1108 with a FASTRAND II and some other goodies preserved - of all places - in the Industrial Worker's museum, which used to be a hydroelectric plant, (one of the first) in Norway. It is in the middle of freakin' nowhere - a stone's throw from Vemork - I believe the distance between me and the VCFeu is actually shorter than the one to this machine. It is in very good condition, however. The machine was used at NTH, now NTNU, and successor to this machine, an 1100/*mumble*, was actually dumped to sea, for some environmental reason(!). Burroughs, I have seen nothing of, however. I have also heard of some weird story about a rather large company the museum of sci and tech have been talking to, which turned down a fairly major scorched-earth-style payback, and are still storing their IBM mainframe in a warehouse. I am not sure about the model name. Somehow, I keep thinking it ends in a "1"... series/1? Something like that. I believe it isn't the minicomputer with a similar name. From what I've heard, it's a bona fide mainframe. > There is also a disproportionate number of large scientific computers that > have survived vs business systems. There much fewer in CHM's collection. I recently discovered a UNIVAC 9400 and 9300 in the museum of telecommunications' warehouse here in Norway. These are machines replicating the System/360 instruction set (of the mod. 30 and 20, respectively). The 9300, I don't currently know much about, but speaking for the 9400, the card punch, card reader, and line printer have been preserved. They seem in excellent condition. -Tore From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 2 11:38:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 09:38:48 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <1165079746.30774.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: , <1165079746.30774.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <457149A8.13759.18BC6C3C@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Dec 2006 at 18:15, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > I recently discovered a UNIVAC 9400 and 9300 in the museum of > telecommunications' warehouse here in Norway. These are machines > replicating the System/360 instruction set (of the mod. 30 and 20, > respectively). The 9300, I don't currently know much about, but speaking > for the 9400, the card punch, card reader, and line printer have been > preserved. They seem in excellent condition. Aren't the 9000-series Univacs not home-grown products, but rather the follow-on result of the RCA Spectra acquisition by Univac? IIRC, they're nothing like the 1100-series at all. Cheers, Chuck From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 11:50:11 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 18:50:11 +0100 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <457149A8.13759.18BC6C3C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1165079746.30774.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> <457149A8.13759.18BC6C3C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1165081811.30774.103.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-12-02 at 09:38 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Dec 2006 at 18:15, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > > > I recently discovered a UNIVAC 9400 and 9300 in the museum of > > telecommunications' warehouse here in Norway. These are machines > > replicating the System/360 instruction set (of the mod. 30 and 20, > > respectively). The 9300, I don't currently know much about, but speaking > > for the 9400, the card punch, card reader, and line printer have been > > preserved. They seem in excellent condition. > > Aren't the 9000-series Univacs not home-grown products, but rather > the follow-on result of the RCA Spectra acquisition by Univac? http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/panint.htm is an interesting read. The 9300 was certainly an internal, pre-Spectra job. Also, the 9400 was less compatible than the Spectra series, and probably not based on it. > IIRC, > they're nothing like the 1100-series at all. Nope - as I said - they're S/360... I guess "clones" might be the expression. Still very beautiful machine. The front panel is very unique in that by twisting knobs to the right of the blinkenlights labels, you actually mechanically turn a "label cylinder" with different labels, and presumably the lights would change function with it. I haven't seen the 1108 in person yet, but I would very much like to. -Tore From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Dec 2 11:53:56 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 17:53:56 -0000 (GMT) Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> <455213B5.4090402@yahoo.com> <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> Message-ID: <3856.192.168.0.3.1165082036.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, December 2, 2006 15:35, Dave McGuire wrote: > I sure wouldn't mind getting ahold of one or two of those ZX81 > kits. Will someone be making them available at some point? Aren't they still available from Stuart at Zebra systems? IIRC he's down to his last 200-odd. There must be people your side of the pond that has a kit stashed away that can lend you the keyboard membrane, hell, I've got broken ZX81s here that you can have the membrane from to use as a basis for a new one....... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 11:55:45 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 18:55:45 +0100 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165082146.30774.111.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 18:56 +0000, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 31/10/06 07:50, "Andreas Holz" wrote: > > > Only about 13Years old, but quite large: > > > > http://convex.topinform.de/c38/images/ > > Don't you just hate it when decommissioners cut the power cables like that! > Is the system still in bits or has it been reassembled? The (possibly incomplete and very badly treated) Convex C200 (is it supposed to be a single rack? It's not supposed to be upside-down, is it?) belonging to the Norwegian Computer History Society, NODAF, has had the cable cut in much the same way, so I think it was a relatively common thing. -Tore From marvin at rain.org Sat Dec 2 12:23:00 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 10:23:00 -0800 Subject: ClassicCmp Awareness Message-ID: <4571C484.708C0B4C@rain.org> I've been selling some stuff on ebay and have found a number of people who aren't aware that this listserver exists. Basically, I'm referring them to the ClassicCmp website and they can view the archives and decide if they want to join. It was eyeopening to see that people who have a big interest in this stuff weren't aware of this listserver! I wonder if a link to the Vintage Computer Marketplace would be appropriate to put on the ClassicCmp home page? From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 13:28:20 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 20:28:20 +0100 Subject: In response to overwhelming demand... In-Reply-To: <200606262327360963.17AD1151@10.0.0.252> References: <004a01c68eb3$3acf4470$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200606270445.AAA11774@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44A0C06B.1030207@gmail.com> <200606262327360963.17AD1151@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <1165087700.30774.157.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 23:27 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6/27/2006 at 1:21 AM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > >Indeed. I would consider only green-on-black to be traditional. > > I had a brief fling with orange-on-black (somehow called "amber"). > > The recent talk about terminals reminded me of a terminal I evaluated > sometime around 1979. I think it was by Tandberg, but I could be > wrong--all I remember is that it was of Swedish manufacture. HEY!! The Tandberg is 100% NORWEGIAN!! :) The Tandberg - I think legacy might be the word - is held in extremely high regard by most Norwegians, and its founder Vebj?rn Tandberg as something of an engineer's hero. The company has a quite interesting history. Tandberg started off as Tandberg Radiofabriker, started by a brilliant civil engineer by the name of Vebj?rn Tandberg. Tandberg made a string of innovative, high-quality radios (The Huldra and S?lvsuper lines are to this day held in very high regard) and (up until 1971 purely analog audio) reel/cassette tape decks, and in the early 70s started a subsidiary, Tandberg Data, tasked with production of computer equipment. Vebj?rn Tandberg was a pioneer in improving the labour conditions of his workforce from the 1930s through the 1950s, often being decades ahead of the rest of the industry. In 1972, Tandberg and Radionette, the other major Norwegian radio manufacturer, was purchased by V. Tandberg, after RadioNette had started a downward spiral into brankruptcy. In 1978, Tandberg entered bankruptcy protection. Vebj?rn recieved a letter stating that he was not welcome on the premises. On October 30th, Vebj?rn committed suicide, and on the 14th of December the company is declared bankrupt. In 1979, large parts of Tandberg were swallowed by Norsk Data - practically at government gunpoint. ND management were optimistic, and expecting the company to show a profit by 1980. Already halfway into 1980, it was very apparent that this was not to be. The company was separated back out, and ND continued to grow until 1987. both http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vebj?rn_Tandberg and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandberg may be worth reading. > Probably one > of the nicest terminals I'd ever seen. Agreed. > Everything on it was ergonomically > engineered. The screen could be positioned any way you could imagine; the > keytops were colored according to function And the keyboard is extremely ergonomic, too. The keyboard has a really beautiful feel to it. If I could plug a TDV-2200 keyboard into my PC, I would in an instant! Also, the refresh rate is very high. Since I have an abundant supply of these, including broken ones, I some day want to put a modern motherboard in there and have a very very fast terminal. Maybe even somehow make it show an X display. > and the contrast of the display > was controlled. Mine have problems with brightness/contrast. One has a very bright background, and one has a very very weak video signal. > The other thing I recall is that it was one of the most > expensive terminals I'd ever run across. The Volvo of terminals. Yeah. To make matters worse, their main OEM dealer Norsk Data, when selling the terminals, marked them up at least 20 percent when selling them. As one customer remarked - it was a very expensive "Norsk Data" sticker... > Anyone care to fill me in on what the thing was--and if anyone ever used > them. Tandberg sticks in my mind because the same salesman dropped off a 9 > track tape drive for evaluation that was definitely a Tandberg. >From your description I'm going to guess that you're talking about a TDV-2200 series, most likely the TDV-2215. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TDV-2200 (Picture taken by me) Here is a picture of one in a "complete system" from an annual report: http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/nd560-unproc.jpeg http://nodaf.no/images/f/f0/00013.jpg NODAF has quite a lot of them. The smaller, lighter-coloured terminal with the Mycron label is the successor TDV-1200, which was a cheaper, and much later (6 or 7 years) terminal. It was more compatible with the ANSI standard. It was white-on-black or black-on-white, with a very high refresh rate. http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/nodaf/gallery/kp-lager/plan9/00010.jpg This is the predecessor, the TDV-2115. Less spectacular, but nonetheless a nice all-round VDU for its day. This is closer to 1973-75. In this case, Norsk Data did more than add a sticker. They painted the case in the same low-key, lovely SCREAMING ORANGE!! they did with the rest of their original and OEM equipment between around '71 and '79. :) The CRT was yellow-on-black. -Tore From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 13:50:49 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 14:50:49 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <1165079746.30774.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1165079746.30774.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: > I recently discovered a UNIVAC 9400 and 9300 in the museum of > telecommunications' warehouse here in Norway. These are machines > replicating the System/360 instruction set (of the mod. 30 and 20, > respectively). The 9300, I don't currently know much about, but speaking > for the 9400, the card punch, card reader, and line printer have been > preserved. They seem in excellent condition. This is good to know. I would like to know where any and all surviving 9300 systems are. Probably on my next Westward trip in May, bitsavers will be getting a zillion 9300 cards (assemblers, linkers, and applications) to read and archived for the common good. All we need now is for someone with 9300 maintenance docs to get over to bitsavers also for the common good. -- Will From charlesmorris at hughes.net Sat Dec 2 13:52:27 2006 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 14:52:27 -0500 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <200612021801.kB2I18hT072174@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612021801.kB2I18hT072174@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <69m3n2hnpbgi7mp7q91nq77ubhm4d1r5f7@4ax.com> On Sat, 2 Dec 2006 12:01:14 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >>> Does anyone know of a source for these keyboards, or know of a >>> company that could make them up? > This is very true of course...but (apparently I missed Al >Hartman's earlier message about this) I know of a company that can >make these keyboards. I have a ZX81 that needs a new keyboard too... the "tail" that connects to the board is trashed. Put me down to buy one if this should actually happen... thanks Charles From mtapley at swri.edu Sat Dec 2 14:00:18 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 14:00:18 -0600 Subject: OT: Dwarf Engineer Message-ID: At 12:00 -0600 12/2/06, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Okay... It's good to know you are back -- some of the most recent >deliveries of dwarfs had some samples that were out-of-tolerance. > :-) actually, the .sig is a slam at the International Astronomical Union for demoting Pluto from "planet" to "Dwarf planet" because it "hasn't cleared its neighborhood". I'm working on a spacecraft headed for Pluto (New Horizons), so I'm peeved. ObCC: since the hardware will take more than 10 years between construction and flyby at Pluto, it'll be classic before it's ever used for its designed purpose. (Well, there is a Jupiter flyby...) This is a great opportunity to thank everyone on the classic-computer list for the accumulated wisdom I've gleaned over the years about what works and what doesn't in keeping old systems running. A lot of what I learned here went into the Longevity Plan for New Horizons. Many and diverse thanks to all! -- Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) 210-379-4635 Dwarf Phone, 210-522-6025 Office Phone From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 2 14:12:33 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 12:12:33 -0800 Subject: resonable config 11/34 on eBay Message-ID: <4571DE31.9040209@bitsavers.org> 280054268630 350 bin with no bids in Ontario. From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 15:49:26 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 22:49:26 +0100 Subject: Is there a Prime Computer Emulator? In-Reply-To: <200606072040.k57Ke1ZV085942@lots.reanimators.org> References: <20060607145025.GA4562@RawFedDogs.net> <200606071511.k57FBHLp021050@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <200606072040.k57Ke1ZV085942@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <1165096166.30774.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-06-07 at 13:40 -0700, Frank McConnell wrote: > Dennis Boone wrote (after Kevin Monceaux): > > > with classic computer emulators. Anyway, while rewatching it I > > > was thrilled to come across a commercial with the Doctor and Romana > > > advertising a Prime computer. > > > I'd be interested in seeing that commercial if you can put it online > > somewhere. > > You might find it about 2/3 of the way down this page: > > Catching up on list mail... This now 404s. Is there anyone who saved the vids? -Tore From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Dec 2 16:03:36 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 22:03:36 -0000 Subject: UK PAL ==> US NTSC video convertor box? References: <456D5C3E.1020105@yahoo.co.uk>, <001201c713e6$4ddbba40$0200a8c0@p2deskto>, <456FAC17.2070604@yahoo.co.uk> <456F57BD.14624.112377C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <009501c7165d$b7827be0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> From: "Chuck Guzis" > On 30 Nov 2006 at 22:14, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > I wonder what the quality's like? Going PAL -> recoder -> NTSC obviously won't > > be as good as native NTSC device output. Or, to put it another way, is the > > average PCI TV tuner card as good quality as the tuner found in a good TV set? > > ...a silly question occurred to me. Why bother with remodulating? > Why not just drive an RGB monitor with the demodulated output? I use > such an arrangement to view PAL-recoded VHS tapes and resulting color > is much better than local NTSC broadcast quality. > > Cheers, > Chuck There's no reason why you shouldn't put it onto a VGA monitor, except for aesthetics - a vintage home computer looks better on a vintage TV set, much like I try to use period programs when demonstrating the TV sets (I hide the PC under the table). When experimenting, I use a variety of display devices - the console drives a modern 1024x768 TFT monitor, and for the most part, the TV ouput drives a 1970 Sony TV9-90UB monochrome TV, which is dual standard, and will display either 405 or 625 line pictures. I have a Melford monitor which will handle 525 and 625, and use a Tektronix 535A scope (circa 1960), with a type O plug-in for esoteric standards, but when it comes to a demonstration, a 1950's TV set displaying a 1950's program is very impressive. The advantage of the PC method of picture generation is that it gives the maximum possible resolution on a set (assuming a well desinged modulator). Jim. From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Dec 2 10:07:26 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 16:07:26 +0000 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <6BAB01A1-DCF4-4BCA-B8A7-25A1DD5B8F81@neurotica.com> References: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> <455213B5.4090402@yahoo.com> <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> <4571660F.2000602@gjcp.net> <6BAB01A1-DCF4-4BCA-B8A7-25A1DD5B8F81@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4571A4BE.4020600@gjcp.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 2, 2006, at 6:39 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>> At this late date it would probably be easier to design >>> and build an interface so that a common PS/2-type keyboard >>> could be used, along with some self-adhesive key-top stickers. >> >> Seems like overkill - the interface would need more processor power >> than the ZX81, most likely. > > Nah, not even close. In the unit I mentioned in my other message on > this topic, the keyboard encoder processor (which also did a bunch of > other housekeeping) was a PIC16C65B clocked at 32KHz. (no typo there) I don't see that being able to handle talking to a PC keyboard, though. Gordon From kossow at computerhistory.org Sat Dec 2 11:51:03 2006 From: kossow at computerhistory.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 09:51:03 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems Message-ID: > Aren't the 9000-series Univacs not home-grown products, but rather > the follow-on result of the RCA Spectra acquisition by Univac? That is the Univac Series 80 The 9000 series is similar but not exactly the same as S360 (a few instructions and the I/O differ). There is a complete 9400 that is trying to be brought back to life in Germany http://www.technikum29.de/en/computer/univac9400.shtm It would also be nice to know what ever happened to Bill Yakowenko's 9200 http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/univac/news.html From bv at norbionics.com Sat Dec 2 12:45:39 2006 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 19:45:39 +0100 Subject: UK PAL ==> US NTSC video convertor box? In-Reply-To: <456FAC17.2070604@yahoo.co.uk> References: <456D5C3E.1020105@yahoo.co.uk> <001201c713e6$4ddbba40$0200a8c0@p2deskto> <456FAC17.2070604@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 05:14:15 +0100, Jules Richardson wrote: > Jim Beacon wrote: >> have a look at the MYTHTV LINUX package - the addition of a suitable capture >> card and video out card should do the job. We've got it to do various >> esoteric television standards, for a bit of a taster of what it can do, have >> a look here: >> >> http://www.g1jbg.co.uk/fothtv.htm > > wow - that looks like it'll do the job nicely. I suppose the hardware needed > is at the point where it's almost free these days (and certainly cheaper than > a proprietary converter). Both ATI and nVidia have really good video support these days, and Matrox have of course been in professional equipment for many years. > > I wonder what the quality's like? Going PAL -> recoder -> NTSC obviously won't > be as good as native NTSC device output. Or, to put it another way, is the > average PCI TV tuner card as good quality as the tuner found in a good TV set? The tuners I have seen in TV cards are identical to the ones in TV sets. I suppose the processing after the tunes is what makes the difference, and only a few years ago most PCs were not really up to real-time video processing without glitches. I have a cheap TV- at nywhere which works fine until they switch to DTB/MPEG4 and turn off PAL transmissions next year. Now that PAL and NTSC have been obsoleted by digital TV, most PCs have the processing power needed to process PAL signals... ... > > (Hmm, you've got me thinking that the museum probably needs the reverse of > what I'm trying to do - something that'll take all sorts of formats as input > and output VGA or PAL...) VGA is acceptable for IEA-standard NTSC-M material (which has only 482 active lines and 4.2MHz video bandwidth), and I guess it is acceptable for PAL in many cases even though you want rather higher resolution in order to show all the 574 active lines in a OIRT-standard PAL-D signal with 6MHz video bandwidth. In both cases I think I would opt for a 600x800 display running at 75Hz refresh instead of 60Hz 640x480 VGA. You would get some borders around the picture, but everything would be displayed without any interpolation artifacts. Depending on the goals you want to accomplish, there is also a NTSC version for standard B (625 lines 25 frames/s) and a PAL version for standard M (525 lines 30 frames/s). These standards were used for transatlantic exchange, and in countries like Brazil which had US-style B&W transmissions but opted for PAL for colour. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 16:17:54 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 23:17:54 +0100 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456C493E.50900@yahoo.co.uk> References: <381590.42720.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <456C493E.50900@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1165097874.30774.171.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 08:35 -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: > Ahh, I was originally asking after systems with different CPUs though, not > several of the same type - mainly to rule out lots of posts about parallel > machines (as I was curious as to how many manufacturers managed to make a go > of selling 'average' systems with a mixture of CPU types - parallel machines > tend to be in a different league) Throwing in my two ?re: The Norsk Data ND-500 and ND-5000 series. The ND-500 CPU was a card rack to itself, the ND-5000 was crunched together on a VLSI-packed modular PCB sandwich. The ND-500 ran a very minimal OS called the "Swapper", and had a microcode which was loaded by the ND-100. The ND-100 ran the OS (SINTRAN III/VSX) and a lot of applications, while programs written for the 500 side would be loaded into the dual-ported memory by the 100. The 5000 was a reimplementation of the 500 into VLSI gate arrays. http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/nd560-unproc.jpeg http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/nd/nd-5000/ The latter is a ND-5700 - you can tell by the three layers - with the cache and some of the decoding/pipelining units, but without the fourth layer, the IDAC, AKA the "Booster". (a single board which covered most of the third layer. Added cache and handled in hardware certain addressing modes that the 5700 and below handled in microcode) -Tore From alhartman at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 16:33:50 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 17:33:50 -0500 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <200612021800.kB2I0H3D072139@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612021800.kB2I0H3D072139@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4571FF4E.4040208@yahoo.com> I'd like to pursue this. My partner is checking into a company he found as well. We have plenty of old keyboards which have breaks in the tracks due to age, which can be used as models. He is tearing one apart to scan in for artwork. We'll have to differentiate the reproductions from originals in some way, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. As for ZX-81 Kits, Stewart is still selling them at www.zebrasystems.com Al Phila, PA > This is very true of course...but (apparently I missed Al > Hartman's earlier message about this) I know of a company that can > make these keyboards. A few years ago, I designed a commercial > product which had a membrane keyboard. A few photos of it in > development (with those membrane keyboards) can be seen at: > > http://www.neurotica.com/albums/qyx/ > > I don't recall the name of the company that did the keyboards, but > I can dig it up from my notes if desired. They are here in Florida, > and I recall them having been highly capable and easy to work with. > We can probably make exact ZX81/TS1000 keyboard replicas through that > company. > > I sure wouldn't mind getting ahold of one or two of those ZX81 > kits. Will someone be making them available at some point? > > -Dave > > -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 16:53:52 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 23:53:52 +0100 Subject: New bounty on manuals ($$$) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165100032.30774.179.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-11-27 at 12:27 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I'm offering a bounty on the following manuals: > > Convex Architecture Reference Manual I have the Convex Assembly Language Reference Manual for the C-series. I possibly have it in loose-sheet format too, for scanning. Is that relevant? The book explains the instructions, addressing modes, speeds, registers, etc, for the C100, C200, C3200, C3400, and C3800, at first glance. It makes mention in the Associated Documents of the Arch Ref Man for the C series (order number DHW-300). I can try to keep an eye out for these docs the next time I go to the warehouse, if it is of interest. I'm very sorry that we couldn't meet up in the Bay Area. I should have dispensed my time a bit better there! Still, saw CHM, saw SF. I enjoyed myself. :) -Tore From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 17:02:31 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 00:02:31 +0100 Subject: New bounty on manuals ($$$) In-Reply-To: <1165100032.30774.179.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1165100032.30774.179.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1165100551.30774.181.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-12-02 at 23:53 +0100, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > On Mon, 2006-11-27 at 12:27 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I'm offering a bounty on the following manuals > I have I apologize, that was of course meant to go off-list... -Tore From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 2 17:08:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 15:08:31 -0800 Subject: In response to overwhelming demand... In-Reply-To: <1165087700.30774.157.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <004a01c68eb3$3acf4470$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>, <200606262327360963.17AD1151@10.0.0.252>, <1165087700.30774.157.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <457196EF.6442.19EA4F83@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Dec 2006 at 20:28, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > HEY!! > > The Tandberg is 100% NORWEGIAN!! :) Sorry, I had Volvo on the brain. I would have compared it to a Norwegian-made auto, but I don't know of any offhand. :) > Yeah. To make matters worse, their main OEM dealer Norsk Data, when > selling the terminals, marked them up at least 20 percent when selling > them. As one customer remarked - it was a very expensive "Norsk Data" > sticker... > > > Anyone care to fill me in on what the thing was--and if anyone ever used > > them. Tandberg sticks in my mind because the same salesman dropped off a 9 > > track tape drive for evaluation that was definitely a Tandberg. > > >From your description I'm going to guess that you're talking about a > TDV-2200 series, most likely the TDV-2215. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TDV-2200 (Picture taken by me) Looks very close, except I think the display on mine was on a moveable arm support. We also received a tabletop 9-track tape drive at about the same time. Not an autoloader per se, but reel-to-reel in a vertical plane. The interface was very simple--I was able to use a single 8255 to talk to the drive (i.e., it wasn't a Pertec interface). But again, far, far too expensive. :( Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 2 17:18:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 16:18:50 -0700 Subject: Is there a Prime Computer Emulator? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Dec 2006 22:49:26 +0100. <1165096166.30774.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: In article <1165096166.30774.160.camel at localhost.localdomain>, Tore Sinding Bekkedal writes: > > You might find it about 2/3 of the way down this page: > > > > Catching up on list mail... This now 404s. Is there anyone who saved the > vids? had the text in the wayback machine, but not the images :-(. "Prime Computers Australia, 1979-80 A series of computer hardware commercials made for Australian TV, featuring husband and wife celebrity team Tom Baker and Lalla Ward. Funny - even if you don't speak seven languages and up to five protocols..." -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 17:28:28 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 00:28:28 +0100 Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165102108.30774.190.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-06-14 at 20:24 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > I imagine that many paper suppliers ought to be able > > to provide tape on a custom basis, given a > > sufficiently large order, but I was led to believe > > that the specs for such tape as laid out in the > > relevant standards were a bit difficult to fulfil, > > particularly for oiled tape. > > I would think that it should not be too impossible to make your own if the > supply gets really short. I think that if this ever happened, an alternative might very well be to just pool together as a bunch of hobbyists and order paper tapes custom-made? I think paper mills have catered to smaller markets in the past... -Tore From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 2 17:33:47 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 16:33:47 -0700 Subject: OT: Dwarf Engineer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45720D5B.1020907@jetnet.ab.ca> Mark Tapley wrote: > ObCC: since the hardware will take more than 10 years between > construction and flyby at Pluto, it'll be classic before it's ever used > for its designed purpose. (Well, there is a Jupiter flyby...) > > This is a great opportunity to thank everyone on the classic-computer > list for the accumulated wisdom I've gleaned over the years about what > works and what doesn't in keeping old systems running. A lot of what I > learned here went into the Longevity Plan for New Horizons. Many and > diverse thanks to all! I take it that all the data returned uses well docmented formats on paper? I got thinking that some data was lost from early 1970's because nobody could un-encode the mag tapes. It is a good thing this about computers, I was expecting D&D type dwarfs. Ben alias woodelf. PS. I still have to grumble at the US and the captive politics that don't permit free access to space. Is the project pluto project classified? The whole purpose of knowlage is that is you can learn from mistakes. The biggest mistake I see off hand is this is *NOT* a long range plan. Send me all the design data I am sure to honest comments about the design. I am no egg-head but even I can see that the problem still stems from the fact the *EARTH* has no re-usable (unmanned) cargo shuttle to space. The launch 'rocket' still I suspect limits you to '60's payloads thus I don't see much of a change in what kind of mission to the moon & planets are used. I suspect you all fight over this years budget, and nothing gets built except what the dictator of budget feels is most important for the ego of the USA. Reusable techology I belive is the way to with any space-program with a long range goal. This starts with rocket fuel and ends with electronic components since someday one must depend on something other than the earth for repair and replacement parts. Now that the probe to pluto is mostly built, why not try a design using 1970's ideas like the movie 2001 and see just where NASA has made a wrong turn in single mission projects. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Dec 2 17:38:40 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 17:38:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT: Dwarf Engineer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Mark Tapley wrote: > At 12:00 -0600 12/2/06, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> Okay... It's good to know you are back -- some of the most recent >> deliveries of dwarfs had some samples that were out-of-tolerance. >> > > :-) actually, the .sig is a slam at the International Astronomical Union for > demoting Pluto from "planet" to "Dwarf planet" because it "hasn't cleared its > neighborhood". I'm working on a spacecraft headed for Pluto (New Horizons), > so I'm peeved. > > -- > Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer > (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) And here I thought the .sig was something to the effect of you hadn't yet created a large enough "bang" to scare away any remaining neighborhood residents, thus you were still considered a 'dwarf' engineer ;) -Toth From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Dec 2 17:54:02 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 15:54:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 In-Reply-To: <1165102108.30774.190.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1165102108.30774.190.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Dec 2006, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > On Wed, 2006-06-14 at 20:24 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > > I imagine that many paper suppliers ought to be able > > > to provide tape on a custom basis, given a > > > sufficiently large order, but I was led to believe > > > that the specs for such tape as laid out in the > > > relevant standards were a bit difficult to fulfil, > > > particularly for oiled tape. > > > > I would think that it should not be too impossible to make your own if the > > supply gets really short. > > I think that if this ever happened, an alternative might very well be to > just pool together as a bunch of hobbyists and order paper tapes > custom-made? I think paper mills have catered to smaller markets in the > past... Back in June or whenever it was when this thread was fresh, somone suggested CNC supply companies. They have brand-new paper tape: oiled and not, mylar, and assorted colors. However, it's all on reels. How would someone get new fanfold paper? Maybe someone could make a machine to decurl and fanfold reeled tape. Sidenote: how hard would it be to make a paper tape reader and punch from scratch? The idea is to have a lightweight unit for playing with my SBC6120 and perhaps Altair reissue/clone (if and when I get one). -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 2 17:16:29 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 23:16:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 2, 6 10:27:55 am Message-ID: > > On Dec 1, 2006, at 12:26 PM, Richard wrote: > > Someone asked me in private email why I'd want to do this -- I > > consider the source code just as an important historical artifact as > > the compiled binaries and physical hardware. For the same reason that > > people want schematics for vintage hardware, having source code for > > vintage software is also useful. > > Not only useful, but highly educational. A lot of this sort of I would argue software sources are more educational than useful (not that education is not a very important 'use' :-)). I like scheamtics of old computers for 2 reasons, firstly to learn how they worked, and secondly to be able to repair them if something failes. Only the first is really applicable to software, software doesn't fail in the same sense that hardware can. FWIW, even though I don't consdier myself to be a programmer, I do like reading source listings, the lower the level the better. I have certainly read through a fair number of microcode sources in my time... -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 2 17:59:13 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 15:59:13 -0800 Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 Message-ID: <45721351.3040108@bitsavers.org> > I think that if this ever happened, an alternative might very well be > to just pool together as a bunch of hobbyists and order paper tapes > custom-made? I think paper mills have catered to smaller markets in > the past... Someone from the CHM PDP-1 restoration team contacted Western Numerical Control about having at batch of fanfold made. It was going to be on the order of several thousand dollars to have the paper maker WNC knows fire up the machine to do it. At $20/box on eBay, it may be worth doing.. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 2 18:17:29 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 18:17:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: Never assume anything on ePay Message-ID: <200612030017.kB30HTpA023625@keith.ezwind.net> FYI: (Scuzz got a reply from the seller saying that he'd be willing to give a refund after Scuzz had returned the item) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Scuzz wrote: Hi Back to square one on the Acorn...Just had the Acorn arrive and the #*$! head used the original box to ship it to me... Read my email to him: The Acorn arrived today. I feel you should send me my money back. I purchased from you a computer in a box... IN A BOX. It was the box I purchased along with the computer. I was also buying the box. I wanted the BOX. You have destroyed the most important item of the purchase. If you were not prepared to ship the box as advertised then you should not have offered the BOX for sale. As a collector the BOX is the most important part. You left it exposed to be damaged, stuck labels all over it, and destroyed it with selotape. I wasn`t interested in a busted computer I wanted the box. In over 1800 purchases on Ebay I have never actually had the item being sold destroyed by the seller before. Do you understand what you did. It was like selling a rare stamp then sticking it to the envelope. I am so angry you cannot believe. Your Auction reads..` in its original box complete with mouse ` Why do you think people buy old computers... Goodness me. I`m very very unhappy. Breaks my heart. [ end post ] And so another valuable retro item is destroyed. The search goes on... ar hum. scuzz From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Dec 2 18:44:25 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 19:44:25 -0500 Subject: Help installing SunOS? Message-ID: <200612021944.25312.pat@computer-refuge.org> So, I'm back to trying to get my 3/180 running again. I'm trying to boot a SunOS 4.1.1 "for Sun3" install tape that I produced from images and directions that on the sun3zoo site. When I try to boot, it seems to read from the tape OK, but then it bus errors: >b xt() Boot: xt(0,0,0) Size: 507912+123920+79144 bytes Invalid Page Bus Error: Vaddr: 0E0894E4, Paddr: 000014E4, Type 0, Read, FC 5, Size 4 at 0x0000400A. The CPU is a 3/180 with 16MB of ram, an Xylogics pertec tape controller w/ Sun badged Fujitsu M24444 tape attached, and Xylogics SMD disk controller with a Fujitsu Eagle I think (aka Sun 595-1309). Anyone have any ideas what I might be doing wrong, or perhaps a working installer on 9-track tape they could copy for me? Thanks, Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 18:57:55 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 01:57:55 +0100 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines In-Reply-To: <456BF311.289E8BD2@cs.ubc.ca> References: <44440.68406.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <456BD13D.7090802@bluewin.ch> <456BF311.289E8BD2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1165107475.30774.254.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 00:28 -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > > > Chris M wrote: > > > > > So what do some of the starrier UK and mainland > > > European machines go for? Heck which are they? > > Just curious, where do NorskData minis fit in this?: Well, OK, here goes my second Norwegian tech company history rant mail today. :) Please ask if there was anything I omitted. ND was founded in 1968, grew faster than Apple did for several years, suddenly stopped growing in 1987, went bankrupt in 1992, and the stock was priced at 0 in 1993. Had 4500 employees at its peak. Interesting innovations which I cannot pinpoint having been done anywhere else: 1968: First minicomputer with hardware floating point standard? 1969: First minicomputer with paging? (optional) 1973: First superminicomputer? (NORD-5) 1979: First single-board 16-bit minicomputer? (NORD-100) I'm sure there are a lot more, but it's 2am, and those are the ones that spring to a tired mind. The seed for ND was sown in the NDRE, Norwegian Defence Research Establishment. There, the SAM and SAM 2 (Which gained the nickname "FLINK" - roughly translatable to "dilligent") computers were developed by an ambitious gang of engineers. After the SAM 2 was completed, they decided to start their own computer company. Many of the designers had spent time at MIT, and the SAM shows clear inheritance from the PDP-1 and Whirlwind computers. This was to fade away as you progressed to the NORD-1, however. I myself have four ND's. One of them is one of their Motorola 88Ks, however. The one to the far left is on 24-7, fighting a winning battle with the winter cold. *With the window open.* Accounts to any SINTRAN nostalgics that may be about are certainly available (Though you'll have to telnet through my PDP-11!). http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/fourcompacts.jpeg > How prevalent were they in the European marketplace compared to, for > example, PDP-11s? Not extremely. The PDP-11s dwarfed Norsk Data in many areas, but Norsk Data had a very respectable market share with their modular, integrated office automation system NOTIS, and the NORTEXT integrated typesetting system was extremely popular. Their SIBAS II databases were also neato. These three systems were often combined together with rather neat results - one would input an advertisement in NOTIS-WP, store it in the ADBAS database, have the typesetting system typeset it, and use the report generator NOTIS-RG to automatically charge for the advertisements, for example. Later in the eighties, their Technostation CAD workstation would also gain a very large market share. They also had substantial sales to the Soviet Union, due to some rather silly behaviour on the side of CoCom - their machines were allowed in, even though they dwarfed the banned VAXen in performance! > Were they not used much in Britain (why doesn't Tony have any)?, more > popular on the continent perhaps? I don't know why Tony doesn't have one. They *were* quite common, though possibly less so in Britain than other countries. > Never see them here in Canada. A Canadian in the #classiccmp IRC channel passed up a ND-500 a while ago. They tend to surface in surprising places. Last I heard, the US and Israeli air force still actively use them as an F-16 flight simulator. Norway might too. > I recall seeing a bank of (some model) in the > beam-control room at CERN, in 1985, I think I have may have a picture of that room somewhere in a marketing brochure. Was there a voltage control console with a graphics CRT outside of the room? They were the orange generation of machines, right? (NORD-10, NORD-50, NORD-10/S) > but I don't know whether that was an > indication of their popularity/success or part of a bureacratic mandate to > spread the purchasing money around to member countries. CERN had an excellent relationship with Norsk Data. In fact, Tim Berners-Lee wrote his first prototype of the WWW concept, ENQUIRE, (which was more like a wiki, really) on a SINTRAN ND-500! The story behind the first delivery is quite funny, IMHO. This all got started in 1972. Norsk Data was founded in 1968, and was still quite a small company at this time. Back then, CERN put out a tender for the control/acquisition computers for the Synchroton accelerator. 88 companies replied, including DEC and those giants, and... Norsk Data. There circulate many stories from the early days, but these are from credible sources. CERN representatives were invited for dinner and a demonstration of the technology. On the way from the airport, the CERN representatives debated whether or not to accept their invitation to dinner, so as to not completely drain the company of money! :) The representatives were confident that they would give the contract to DEC, and felt like they were freeloading. The representatives were seated next to a teletype, and shown a demonstration of timesharing (Developed by Swedish American Bo Lewendal), BASIC compiler, FORTRAN compiler, file system, floating point performance, etc. After around 30 minutes one of the representatives interrupted - saying that they knew how remote mainframe timesharing worked, but would rather like to see what their minicomputers could do. The representatives refused to believe that the minicomputer next to the teletype had been performing these operations, and had to be shown the lead going into the machine! During that demonstration and later dinner conversations, the representatives grew certain that this was the right system for the job. The price was the lowest reply to the tender which could feasibly deliver. Once they got back and announced their intention to use Norsk Data, all hell broke loose - they'd given the tender to a tiny Norwegian company which didn't even have a working machine yet! The French embassy told CERN that when Norsk Data failed to deliver the order, they would be more than welcome back to Bull. They had sold CERN a machine which did not yet exist anywhere but on paper, the NORD-10. Reverse-compatible with the NORD-1 they had been shown, it was to be a far more compact design. The logic diagrams were done, and so were most of the microcode. The delivery was made on time - of an empty rack! They had delivered the first machine, and a couple of weeks later Harald Eide discreetly came in with a box full of cards, the solder on which had barely dried. There was no time to debug the cards - all of this was done on location, using a NORD-1 to spoonfeed the NORD-10 microcode via an "umbilical cord". When the machine was finally working, you could barely see the boards for all the wires and tape. But the delivery was accepted. The later machines were driven down by car, by B?rd S?rbye, Rolf Sk?r, and Trygve Matre. In the back of BS's Renault 4 was a disk drive, TMA had a couple of teletypes in the back, and RS had his car so full of cards he could barely see out. Their cars were stopped by customs at the border - and they almost didn't get out! The CERN contract was Norsk Data's breakthrough contract, and solidified their credibility, both nationally and internationally. I've translated the Norsk Data history page written by Jonny Oddene, an ex-ND nostalgic, and I'm working on a more thorough one of my own. http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/nd/history.html Here is the story of my own ND-100... http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/nd/nd100/ WHEW. Hope I didn't bore y'all. rgds, -Tore From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 19:09:15 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 02:09:15 +0100 Subject: Source for Ethernet AUI/TP tranceivers? In-Reply-To: <1155306763.44dc950bbbea6@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <1155306763.44dc950bbbea6@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <1165108155.30774.262.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-08-11 at 07:32 -0700, mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > The bad news is that I have a few more of these cards but the twisted pair > connector is designed for LattisNet. LattisNet is a (...) (Finally catching up on my 6000-mail backlog, in a bout of energy...) This is slightly OT, but "l?ttis" or "lattis" is idiotic Scandinavian teenybopper slang for "hilarious" or "laughing". "Det er lattis" = "That is lattis" = "That's hilarious", and somewhat strangely, "Jeg fikk lattis" = "I got lattis" = "I got hilarious" = "I laughed hard". ...Don't look for logic in teenybopper language... Anyway, the word is commonly understood, even by coherent people, and people look at me with disbelief when they notice my LattisNet LattisHub... :) http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/images/misc/lattis.jpeg -Tore From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 19:16:59 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 20:16:59 -0500 Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 In-Reply-To: <45721351.3040108@bitsavers.org> References: <45721351.3040108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Someone from the CHM PDP-1 restoration team contacted Western Numerical > Control about having at batch of fanfold made. It was going to be on the > order of several thousand dollars to have the paper maker WNC knows > fire up the machine to do it. For a couple of thousand dollars, you can get a pretty darn nice deluxe paper folder yourself. Some of them can do continuous folds. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 2 19:59:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 17:59:05 -0800 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: References: from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 2, 6 10:27:55 am, Message-ID: <4571BEE9.20658.1A867295@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Dec 2006 at 23:16, Tony Duell wrote: > I would argue software sources are more educational than useful (not that > education is not a very important 'use' :-)). I like scheamtics of old > computers for 2 reasons, firstly to learn how they worked, and secondly > to be able to repair them if something failes. Only the first is really > applicable to software, software doesn't fail in the same sense that > hardware can. If you're reading someone else's software, the stuff that isn't executable code can really give you a window on the mind of the author and answer the question "What kind of person wrote this--a hack, someone trying to show off, or someone who really put a lot of thought into what s/he was doing?". And even more importantly, "Did whoever wrote this actually know what s/he was doing?" Unfortuantely, you don't get that with decompiled/disassembled code. It might be possible to infer it, but it's quite a bit more difficult. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Dec 2 21:30:33 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 21:30:33 -0600 Subject: HP Time-Shared Basic References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061202093406.032f0e40@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <015901c7168b$66ef1c00$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bill wrote... >I was recenlty given a copy of the "A Quick Reference to HP Time-Shared >BASIC" Printed 9/1969. I'm generally more interested in 2000E and 2000/Access variants of TSB, as that's what I have actually running. If anyone can get an HP fixed head disc, we could get 2000A running again but I kinda doubt those are around - I and others have looked :) The quick reference guide for 2000A would be a rather good artifact to have archived from a historical perspective. Any chance we could get it up on bitsavers after you scan it? > The system associated with the guide is the Hewlet-Packard 2000A. I'm quite familiar with it :) 2000A version of TSB had really minimal hardware requirements, most trivial to find the parts... except that fixed head disc - there's a deal breaker. 2000E is the easiest to run as it doesn't require anything TOO difficult to find other than the 12920 mux sets. 2000/Access is the most fun though - most full featured - and best documented. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Dec 2 21:33:45 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 21:33:45 -0600 Subject: ClassicCmp Awareness References: <4571C484.708C0B4C@rain.org> Message-ID: <016001c7168b$d8f24610$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Marvin wrote... > I've been selling some stuff on ebay and have found a number of people who > aren't aware that this listserver exists. I sell a fair amount on ebay as well (but of course, buy more than I sell!). I'm continually amazed by how many people I find on ebay who DO know about the list and are subscribed but rarely if ever post and no one on the list knows who they are ;) > Basically, I'm referring them to the > ClassicCmp website and they can view the archives and decide if they want > to > join. Bless you :) Much appreciated! > I wonder if a link to the Vintage Computer Marketplace would be > appropriate to > put on the ClassicCmp home page? There is a plan for this in the links database. However, I need to get in touch with the web developer to see where things stand. Been way too long since I heard from him.... Jay West From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Dec 2 22:22:41 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 20:22:41 -0800 Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 In-Reply-To: References: <1165102108.30774.190.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <45725111.9060200@pacbell.net> David Griffith wrote: > Sidenote: how hard would it be to make a paper tape reader and punch from > scratch? The idea is to have a lightweight unit for playing with my > SBC6120 and perhaps Altair reissue/clone (if and when I get one). Back in the Altair days, there was a company called Oliver Audio Engineering that made a small optical papertape reader for hobbyist use. You pulled the tape through manually. The read strobe was generated by sensing the sprocket holes. It would not be difficult to recreate this device, or something similar. I think you'd need a machine shop and considerable skill to make a punch from scratch, While it would not be beyond the capabilities of those folks who build clocks and engines from scratch, you're best bet is to try to pick up one on eBay. They show up with considerable regularity, and usually go for $100-$300. --Bill From kossow at computerhistory.org Sat Dec 2 17:56:27 2006 From: kossow at computerhistory.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 15:56:27 -0800 Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 Message-ID: > I think that if this ever happened, an alternative might very well be to > just pool together as a bunch of hobbyists and order paper tapes > custom-made? I think paper mills have catered to smaller markets in the > past... Someone from the CHM PDP-1 restoration team contacted Western Numerical Control about having at batch of fanfold made. It was going to be on the order of several thousand dollars to have the paper maker WNC knows fire up the machine to do it. At $20/box on eBay, it may be worth doing.. From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Dec 2 21:06:46 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 03:06:46 +0000 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <4571FF4E.4040208@yahoo.com> References: <200612021800.kB2I0H3D072139@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4571FF4E.4040208@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45723F46.70705@gjcp.net> Al Hartman wrote: > I'd like to pursue this. My partner is checking into a company he found > as well. > > We have plenty of old keyboards which have breaks in the tracks due to > age, which can be used as models. Not surprising > He is tearing one apart to scan in for artwork. There must be plenty > We'll have to differentiate the reproductions from originals in some > way, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Uhm, they would be the ones that *work*... Gordon From wizard at voyager.net Sun Dec 3 03:37:54 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 04:37:54 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <1165079746.30774.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1165079746.30774.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1165138674.26280.83.camel@linux.site> On Sat, 2006-12-02 at 18:15 +0100, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > The machine was used at NTH, now NTNU, and successor > to this machine, an 1100/*mumble*, was actually > dumped to sea, for some environmental reason(!). A very exciting project, Project Scalar. They are attempting to teach high technology to fish. Currently, the state of technology is very poor. Most of their computers use Albacore memory, and communicate via Cisco routers. Most of the Cod they use has been cobbled together, by Cobblers and Four-eyes, naturally, and is generally considered to be Crappie, if not a Croaker, and compliance checked by Gibberfish sporting Mullets. Currently, very few Skilfish are programming, and nobody uses Turbot mode. Recent equal rights legislation has ensured that at least portions of major releases are written by Damselfish, Mollies, Oldwifes, Ladyfish, and the much more common Ragfish and Hagfish. The use of Queen Danio is still being debated. Separate (but equal) codicils ensure that Jewfish, Spadefish, Spookfish, Blackfish, Spanish Mackerel, Ricefish, and Oriental Loaches are involved, as well. One of the few areas of the technology industry on a par with land-based companies is marketing. Just as on land, marketing underwater is handled by a consortium of Wormfish, Cutthroat Trout, Clownfish, Longnose Suckers, Loosejaws, Poachers, Ratfish, Turkeyfish, Roaches, and everybody's favorite, the "after hours" crew, consisting of Smoothtongues, Tonguefish, Swallowers, and Chubsuckers. Upper management of the companies I have seen is exclusively composed of Weasel Sharks, and I am told this is industry-wide. Southern North American operations have been turned over to a contingent of Carpetsharks. Publicity is mostly word of Slipmouth, with Web work done by an avant garde crew of Hairyfish, Beardfish, and Flabby Whalefish. The advertisements are musical viral videos, and done with good taste, with a variety of Seattle's Grunion rock Bandfish, and other music. Carp Cobia, lead singer for Nurse Shark, is performing the hit "Smelt like Teen Splitfin." Additionally, Pearl Danio Jam is performing "Not for Unicornfish." And everyone's favorite Viperfish will sing a re-mixed version of "Like a Sturgeon." Never before have so many Guitarfish, Sea Bass, Leatherjackets, Groupers, and Rock Beauties been hanging around a tech company. Of course, they turned several of the programmers into Pufferfish and Stonefish, but it was worth it. On a more classic note, through impressive contract arrangements and digital reconstruction, the late Velvetfish fog himself will sing a little American Sole with "Bluegill and Sedimental," singing both the melody and harmony. Word is, Moorish Idol is talking contract. To top it off, Devario Marlin performs his unforgettable "That's a Moray." The last few seconds are, just for the halibut, software king Billfish, singing "Knife the Mac." Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Dec 2 14:43:33 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 20:43:33 +0000 Subject: Cifer T-5 Message-ID: <200612022043.UAA25799@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, I'm not sure if I've already asked this here, but does anyone know anything about the Cifer T-5 terminal? Mine is missing the keyboard so any info on that would help. Otherwise, assuming it's a fairly typical serial type, it will be a matter of sorting out the connections and the baud rate - not too difficult but easier if you know what it _should_ be. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 3 07:24:14 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 08:24:14 -0500 Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 Message-ID: <0J9P00C4Z97KJ26N@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 > From: David Griffith > Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 15:54:02 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >Sidenote: how hard would it be to make a paper tape reader and punch from >scratch? The idea is to have a lightweight unit for playing with my >SBC6120 and perhaps Altair reissue/clone (if and when I get one). > A reader is fairly simple matter lookup the OAE [oliver audio engineering] reader design. However the punch is a mechanical project. The only kitted one was the Heath (H10 I think) punch reader and that was not very reliable or light. Allison From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Dec 3 11:04:50 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 18:04:50 +0100 Subject: CDC power supplies available. Message-ID: <457303B2.2050406@bluewin.ch> Just wanted to check before I toss them : I have a 5V 25A and a +/- 15V 3A linear powersupply that were part of some CDC machine ( early seventies i guess ). If anyone needs them... Location : Zurich Switzerland Jos Dreesen From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Dec 3 11:16:21 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 18:16:21 +0100 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V Message-ID: <45730665.60607@bluewin.ch> I want to convert a ASR33 from 110V/50Hz ( yes , 50Hz) to 220V. Is it sufficient to swap the motor and fuses ? A nice touch of this particular machine is the unused "here is" option. I wonder if a small bootloader would fit in it... Jos Dreesen From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Dec 3 12:02:25 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 10:02:25 -0800 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <45730665.60607@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: >From: Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel > >I want to convert a ASR33 from 110V/50Hz ( yes , 50Hz) to 220V. > >Is it sufficient to swap the motor and fuses ? > > >A nice touch of this particular machine is the unused "here is" option. >I wonder if a small bootloader would fit in it... > > Jos Dreesen > Hi It makes more sense to use an autotransformer. You can often use the input leads of a transformer that is intended to be wired for 110/220. As an autotransformer, it only has to carry half the current that a full transformer would need. There are several parts of the machine that use the 110v. As I recall, things like the reader power supply and the supply for the keyboard also use the input supply voltage. It make much more sense to use the original voltage with an auto transformer. Since the frequency is the same, there is no issue with belts and pulleys. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Share your latest news with your friends with the Windows Live Spaces friends module. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Dec 3 12:23:44 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 10:23:44 -0800 Subject: Lyle Bickley: Update on TSX+ ?? In-Reply-To: <001001c715ae$f5308900$fa00a8c0@badddog> References: <001001c715ae$f5308900$fa00a8c0@badddog> Message-ID: <200612031023.45073.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Stuart, On Friday 01 December 2006 17:12, Stuart Johnson wrote: > Lyle, > > It has been a while since you updated the Classiccmp list with the status > of your project to make TSX+ available to hobbyists. Can you tell us where > the project is at the present time? Thanks for the gentle reminder. Unfortunately, it kinda dropped off my "to do" list. I was really excited about getting the permission to release it, finding all the code, utilities, docs, etc. I then tried to get a couple of folks on the list to create a website for TSX+ - handling verification of collector "status", etc. I had a couple of volunteers - but, unfortunately, they dropped out - the usual - work demands, etc. The ball went back into my court - and work, etc. got in the way (I run a consulting firm). Your reminder prompted me to re-introduce it to my "to do" queue. I will, hopefully, have time during the Holidays to work on the TSX (and eventually other stuff) website. I've already got the domain, "oldminimicro.com", set up "under construction". Thanks for being patient. It's been way too long for me to get this done. Sigh... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 3 12:39:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 11:39:40 -0700 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Dec 2006 23:16:29 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > [...] I like scheamtics of old > computers for 2 reasons, firstly to learn how they worked, and secondly > to be able to repair them if something failes. Only the first is really > applicable to software, software doesn't fail in the same sense that > hardware can. It fails in the same sense that a hardware design bug would be sitting there permanently annoying you until you fixed it. Machines tend not to ship with hardware bugs because they typically aren't useful with hardware bugs. They do however ship with lots of software bugs, even on older machines. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Dec 3 13:07:36 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 20:07:36 +0100 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V References: <45730665.60607@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F824@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Jos, wouldn't it be easier to get an auto-transformer 220 -> 110 VAC ? - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel Verzonden: zo 03-12-2006 18:16 Aan: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: ASR-33 conversion to 220V I want to convert a ASR33 from 110V/50Hz ( yes , 50Hz) to 220V. Is it sufficient to swap the motor and fuses ? A nice touch of this particular machine is the unused "here is" option. I wonder if a small bootloader would fit in it... Jos Dreesen This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 3 14:10:40 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 15:10:40 -0500 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <4571A4BE.4020600@gjcp.net> References: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> <455213B5.4090402@yahoo.com> <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> <4571660F.2000602@gjcp.net> <6BAB01A1-DCF4-4BCA-B8A7-25A1DD5B8F81@neurotica.com> <4571A4BE.4020600@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <589985BA-98C2-456E-B7D5-59E6CA7D253E@neurotica.com> On Dec 2, 2006, at 11:07 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>>> At this late date it would probably be easier to design >>>> and build an interface so that a common PS/2-type keyboard >>>> could be used, along with some self-adhesive key-top stickers. >>> >>> Seems like overkill - the interface would need more processor >>> power than the ZX81, most likely. >> Nah, not even close. In the unit I mentioned in my other >> message on this topic, the keyboard encoder processor (which also >> did a bunch of other housekeeping) was a PIC16C65B clocked at >> 32KHz. (no typo there) > > I don't see that being able to handle talking to a PC keyboard, > though. Yeah we might have to bump the clock rate up to a screaming 1MHz. ;) (I personally have done it at 4MHz with lots of cycles to spare) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 3 15:02:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 13:02:43 -0800 Subject: Driving 220/330 terminated loads Message-ID: <4572CAF3.10819.1E9D77FE@cclist.sydex.com> I know the "right" answer to this one--you drive 220/330 ohm terminated loads with 7438-type OC drivers. But, going a bit afield from "correct", can one drive a single 220/330 ohm terminated load at the end of a 3m length of ribbon cable at 1 MHz using plain old totem- pole STTL output? How about an LSTTL or HCT totem-pole driver? You can assume that the receiver is a 74LS14. Thanks, Chuck From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun Dec 3 15:11:37 2006 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:11:37 -0500 Subject: CoCo Videotext version Message-ID: <4affc5e0612031311n278f939x724c56734bc1610d@mail.gmail.com> I am not a Coco collector, but I noticed this on the local (Montreal) Craigslist, and figured it might be of interest to people here. Note, I have no connection to the seller. http://montreal.craigslist.org/sys/243510966.html Joe. From melamy at earthlink.net Sun Dec 3 15:44:05 2006 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 13:44:05 -0800 Subject: Driving 220/330 terminated loads In-Reply-To: <4572CAF3.10819.1E9D77FE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4572CAF3.10819.1E9D77FE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061203133722.0238fd08@earthlink.net> the normal totem pole output for S TTL logic will only sink 20 ma to guarantee a logic low. The 220 ohm resistor to +5 will be 22.7ma, so you are exceeding the chip's capability by some amount. LS and HCT can sink even less current. best regards, Steve Thatcher At 01:02 PM 12/3/2006, you wrote: >I know the "right" answer to this one--you drive 220/330 ohm >terminated loads with 7438-type OC drivers. But, going a bit afield >from "correct", can one drive a single 220/330 ohm terminated load at >the end of a 3m length of ribbon cable at 1 MHz using plain old totem- >pole STTL output? How about an LSTTL or HCT totem-pole driver? > >You can assume that the receiver is a 74LS14. > >Thanks, >Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 3 16:09:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 14:09:54 -0800 Subject: Driving 220/330 terminated loads In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20061203133722.0238fd08@earthlink.net> References: <4572CAF3.10819.1E9D77FE@cclist.sydex.com>, <7.0.1.0.2.20061203133722.0238fd08@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4572DAB2.16678.1EDAFB84@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Dec 2006 at 13:44, Steve Thatcher wrote: > the normal totem pole output for S TTL logic will only sink 20 ma to > guarantee a logic low. The 220 ohm resistor to +5 will be 22.7ma, so > you are exceeding the chip's capability by some amount. LS and HCT > can sink even less current. I was thinking of driving the lines with an LS540. which has an I(OL) of 24 ma per output. What I was curious about was if the low-level sink current is sufficient, will I run into problems with the totem- pole pullup? In other words, do I really need OC drivers? Thanks, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Dec 3 16:09:10 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 22:09:10 +0000 Subject: TI CC40 In-Reply-To: <200612012009.kB1K9DeS010480@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/06 20:09, "Cameron Kaiser" wrote: >> Am I imagining things or was there a discussion very recently about Texas >> Instruments' little baby? Whilst browsing ebay uk last week I found one >> that was NIB so naturally I had to have it :) The seller works 5 minutes >> from my weekend home so it was even better. > > Fun little units -- too bad mass storage on them is pretty much a loss. If > only that wafertape drive had gotten more reliable or widely produced ... Indeed, my box has a nice pic of the wafertape drive and a Big Sticker saying that it's not available. Bah. Does anyone know how many wafertapes were unleashed to world+dog? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Dec 3 13:28:54 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 19:28:54 +0000 Subject: Lyle Bickley: Update on TSX+ ?? In-Reply-To: <200612031023.45073.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <001001c715ae$f5308900$fa00a8c0@badddog> <200612031023.45073.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <45732576.1060808@gjcp.net> Lyle Bickley wrote: > Stuart, > > On Friday 01 December 2006 17:12, Stuart Johnson wrote: >> Lyle, >> >> It has been a while since you updated the Classiccmp list with the status >> of your project to make TSX+ available to hobbyists. Can you tell us where >> the project is at the present time? > > Thanks for the gentle reminder. Unfortunately, it kinda dropped off my "to do" > list. > > I was really excited about getting the permission to release it, finding all > the code, utilities, docs, etc. I then tried to get a couple of folks on the > list to create a website for TSX+ - handling verification of collector > "status", etc. I had a couple of volunteers - but, unfortunately, they > dropped out - the usual - work demands, etc. Well actually, I've just been made redundant, and I need some PHP and MySQL samples for a couple of jobs I've applied for. Run your ideas by me again, and I'll see what I can do... > The ball went back into my court - and work, etc. got in the way (I run a > consulting firm). > > Your reminder prompted me to re-introduce it to my "to do" queue. I will, > hopefully, have time during the Holidays to work on the TSX (and eventually > other stuff) website. I've already got the domain, "oldminimicro.com", set up > "under construction". ... and I now have a working(-ish) PDP-11/73 to run TSX+ on again! Gordon. From rcini at optonline.net Sun Dec 3 16:39:39 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 17:39:39 -0500 Subject: Printer ribbon sources Message-ID: <008501c7172b$eb46d970$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I just came across a Tandy printer (DMP105, 26-1276) and I'm having problems finding a ribbon for it. The OEM replacement catalog number is 26-1288 which I believe can be used on the DMP-106, too. I'm wondering if anyone has knows of a suitable replacement or a consistent source for dot matrix printer ribbons for "classic" printers. The ribbon itself looks to be in good condition so I guess I could re-ink it, in which case, what's the best ink for that? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Dec 3 17:46:39 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 15:46:39 -0800 Subject: Printer ribbon sources In-Reply-To: <008501c7172b$eb46d970$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <0a3501c71735$47332c30$0701a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 2:40 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Printer ribbon sources All: I just came across a Tandy printer (DMP105, 26-1276) and I'm having problems finding a ribbon for it. The OEM replacement catalog number is 26-1288 which I believe can be used on the DMP-106, too. I'm wondering if anyone has knows of a suitable replacement or a consistent source for dot matrix printer ribbons for "classic" printers. The ribbon itself looks to be in good condition so I guess I could re-ink it, in which case, what's the best ink for that? -snip- http://www.cfriends.com/ Computer friends, they still sell the macinker, a reinking tool for dot matrix ribbons. They sell ink, and also ribbon and a ribbon-welder to weld the loose ribbon together. They are also a good source for laser toner, etc... From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Dec 3 17:55:27 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 15:55:27 -0800 Subject: Lyle Bickley: Update on TSX+ ?? In-Reply-To: <45732576.1060808@gjcp.net> References: <001001c715ae$f5308900$fa00a8c0@badddog> <200612031023.45073.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <45732576.1060808@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200612031555.27961.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Gordon, On Sunday 03 December 2006 11:28, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: --snip-- > Well actually, I've just been made redundant, Bummer, sorry to hear that... > and I need some PHP and > MySQL samples for a couple of jobs I've applied for. Run your ideas by > me again, and I'll see what I can do... Will do. It would be a good "exercise" - and something "live" that you could point to. Where are you located? What's your phone number? I'd like to chat with you about this!!! > ... and I now have a working(-ish) PDP-11/73 to run TSX+ on again! Cool! It works great on a 11/73. I've run it on my 11/34A and my 11/83 - and the 83 "screams" in comparison. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 3 18:00:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 16:00:35 -0800 Subject: Printer ribbon sources In-Reply-To: <008501c7172b$eb46d970$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <008501c7172b$eb46d970$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <4572F4A3.21660.1F404FC9@cclist.sydex.com> If I had a really tough time locating a ribbon, I'd talk to these folks: http://www.ecomall.com/biz/rib.htm They'll custom-make ribbons if necessary. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Dec 3 17:51:53 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 18:51:53 -0500 Subject: pointers on what tss/8 really needs to run Message-ID: <200612032351.kB3Npscc021467@mwave.heeltoe.com> First off, my apologies to the pdp-8 aficionados on the list. While I used 8's back in the day there's a lot I don't know about them. I'd like to understand *exactly* what hardware tss/8 needs to run. My understanding is that it will only run on an 8/I with the following options KT08/I timesharing option MC8/I memory option KE8/I multiply divide option I'm curious because I wrote up a simple pdp-8 verilog description which runs FOCAL and I think it would be fun to run tss/8 also. I'd like some pointers to documents which describe the options needed and details about them. Certainly all of the IF/DF extended memory is needed, since last time I ran tss/8 we had 32k. I'm guessing that this is covered in the MC8/I documents. I'm curious if the KE8/I is the same as the EAE. And I've never seen a description the KT08, all though I can guess what it does (traps any 6xxx as well as halt and switch register access at a minimum, but anything else?) Also, if there is a better list for this sort of question please let me know. I've never read alt.pdp8.whoknowswhat but maybe I should. -brad From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Dec 3 18:20:15 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:20:15 -0800 Subject: pointers on what TSS/8 really needs to run In-Reply-To: <200612032351.kB3Npscc021467@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200612032351.kB3Npscc021467@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200612031620.16801.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Brad, On Sunday 03 December 2006 15:51, Brad Parker wrote: > First off, my apologies to the pdp-8 aficionados on the list. While I used > 8's back in the day there's a lot I don't know about them. > > I'd like to understand *exactly* what hardware tss/8 needs to run. Take a look at the TSS/8 manuals on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/tss8/ The Managers and Users Guide provide lots of info on hardware requirements. TSS will run on 8/I/L/E with the appropriate options. I've run it on a PDP-8/I and may be running it on my 8/E at some point. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From melamy at earthlink.net Sun Dec 3 21:51:21 2006 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 19:51:21 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: Driving 220/330 terminated loads Message-ID: <12815815.1165204281408.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> the only time a totem-pole output would have an issue if it had to fight another output - one low and one high. As long as you are driving using a single output that has to deal with the resistor network, you should be just fine. The interface you are describing is basically the same as on a 8" disk drive. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- >From: Chuck Guzis >I was thinking of driving the lines with an LS540. which has an I(OL) >of 24 ma per output. What I was curious about was if the low-level >sink current is sufficient, will I run into problems with the totem- >pole pullup? In other words, do I really need OC drivers? > >Thanks, >Chuck > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 3 22:11:46 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 20:11:46 -0800 Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 In-Reply-To: <45725111.9060200@pacbell.net> References: <1165102108.30774.190.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45725111.9060200@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4573A002.9060206@sbcglobal.net> I have the manuals for the Oliver Audio Engineering (OP-80a) and Proko Electronics paper tape reader on my web site here: http://www.dvq.com/docs/s100/ I might be able to dig up one or two of the 9 position photo detectors if I dig deep enough into storage for someone who is serious about building one. Bob William Maddox wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > >> Sidenote: how hard would it be to make a paper tape reader and punch >> from >> scratch? The idea is to have a lightweight unit for playing with my >> SBC6120 and perhaps Altair reissue/clone (if and when I get one). > > > Back in the Altair days, there was a company called Oliver Audio > Engineering > that made a small optical papertape reader for hobbyist use. You > pulled the > tape through manually. The read strobe was generated by sensing the > sprocket > holes. It would not be difficult to recreate this device, or something > similar. > > I think you'd need a machine shop and considerable skill to make a > punch from > scratch, While it would not be beyond the capabilities of those folks > who build > clocks and engines from scratch, you're best bet is to try to pick up > one on > eBay. They show up with considerable regularity, and usually go for > $100-$300. > > --Bill > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Dec 3 22:28:18 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:28:18 -0600 Subject: Lyle Bickley: Update on TSX+ ?? References: <001001c715ae$f5308900$fa00a8c0@badddog> <200612031023.45073.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <007801c7175c$a1181a90$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Lyle wrote.... > I was really excited about getting the permission to release it, finding > all > the code, utilities, docs, etc. I then tried to get a couple of folks on > the > list to create a website for TSX+ - handling verification of collector > "status", etc. I had a couple of volunteers - but, unfortunately, they > dropped out - the usual - work demands, etc. I'd be happy to host this on the classiccmp server.. php & mysql are already there ;) Jay West From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Dec 3 22:38:24 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 20:38:24 -0800 Subject: Lyle Bickley: Update on TSX+ ?? In-Reply-To: <007801c7175c$a1181a90$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001001c715ae$f5308900$fa00a8c0@badddog> <200612031023.45073.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <007801c7175c$a1181a90$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200612032038.24606.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Jay, On Sunday 03 December 2006 20:28, Jay West wrote: > I'd be happy to host this on the classiccmp server.. php & mysql are > already there ;) Thanks for the offer - but I've already got a domain (technically a subdomain) and basic "construction site" setup ("oldminimicro.com"). Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Dec 3 22:53:05 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:53:05 -0600 Subject: Lyle Bickley: Update on TSX+ ?? References: <001001c715ae$f5308900$fa00a8c0@badddog> <200612031023.45073.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <007801c7175c$a1181a90$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200612032038.24606.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <009901c71760$1b4c8f50$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Lyle wrote.... > Thanks for the offer - but I've already got a domain (technically a > subdomain) > and basic "construction site" setup ("oldminimicro.com"). I wasn't talking about the domain registration, I was talking about the hosting. You could easily point the domain to a server here, and/or I could provide free dns of the domain you've already registered to another server or one here. But no matter, if you've got it covered that's great. Jay From marvin at rain.org Mon Dec 4 00:55:02 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 22:55:02 -0800 Subject: Floppy Disk Identification Message-ID: <4573C646.6E9D4BBB@rain.org> As a several boxes of floppy disks slipped and fell, the question occurred ... if you have a disk with only a vague idea of what computer it might go to, is there an easy way to find out what computer made it without trying it in a number of systems? Is Teledisk or Dave's program likely to be useful? And what about Apple disks? And to make it "easy", assume the disks all look like soft-sector disks. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 4 01:17:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 23:17:52 -0800 Subject: Floppy Disk Identification In-Reply-To: <4573C646.6E9D4BBB@rain.org> References: <4573C646.6E9D4BBB@rain.org> Message-ID: <45735B20.9798.20D0A547@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Dec 2006 at 22:55, Marvin Johnston wrote: > As a several boxes of floppy disks slipped and fell, the question occurred ... > if you have a disk with only a vague idea of what computer it might go to, is > there an easy way to find out what computer made it without trying it in a > number of systems? Is Teledisk or Dave's program likely to be useful? And what > about Apple disks? Poke at it with something like AnaDisk for an identifying string in the first few tracks. Be aware that some systems inverted the sense of the data, so you may have to complement the sector to see what's really there. If it's Apple or Commodure, a old XT or 286 with a Central Point Deluxe Option Board will tell you a lot. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 4 03:01:32 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 01:01:32 -0800 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines References: <44440.68406.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <456BD13D.7090802@bluewin.ch> <456BF311.289E8BD2@cs.ubc.ca> <1165107475.30774.254.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4573E3E6.894E0F21@cs.ubc.ca> Tore, thanks for your extensive reply about Norsk Data and the story about the CERN machines. I like hearing about the other minicomputers/companies - the 'rest of the world' - in addition to DEC and HP all the time. Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > I recall seeing a bank of (some model) in the > > beam-control room at CERN, in 1985, > > I think I have may have a picture of that room somewhere in a marketing > brochure. Was there a voltage control console with a graphics CRT > outside of the room? They were the orange generation of machines, right? > (NORD-10, NORD-50, NORD-10/S) I was actually working in another area of the site (DD) and saw that control room just once - I don't remember what was outside it. A co-worker took me through to show me an earlier project she had been working on, which involved programming the ND machines. Yes, indeed(!), they were of the orange generation: even in the dim lighting and off to one side, the bank of them rather determined the colour scheme for the room. ('SCREAMING ORANGE' as you said in an earlier message. Orange panels with aluminum trim, IIRC.) They were from the 70's after all: the era of DEC purple, kitchen appliances in harvest-gold and avocado-green (for North Americans), and too many other design crimes. (Then again, this blue iMac in front of me may look horribly kitschy/garrish in another 20 years.) From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Dec 4 05:42:47 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 06:42:47 -0500 Subject: Floppy Disk Identification In-Reply-To: <4573C646.6E9D4BBB@rain.org> Message-ID: <200612041048.kB4Am8c0022053@hosting.monisys.ca> > As a several boxes of floppy disks slipped and fell, the question occurred ... > if you have a disk with only a vague idea of what computer it might go to, is > there an easy way to find out what computer made it without trying it in a > number of systems? Is Teledisk or Dave's program likely to be useful? And what > about Apple disks? > > And to make it "easy", assume the disks all look like soft-sector disks. If ImageDisk or TeleDisk will read it, then you at least know it's an FM or MFM format (not Apple, Commodore etc.). Assuming that ImageDisk will read it, then you could scan the image file for copyright notices etc. It might be slightly easier if you use ImageDisk Utility to convert it to a raw binary file (remove track/sector headers etc.). Use a hex editor and do a case insensitive search for "COPYRI" and "(C)" also, just scroll through the first few tracks and see if you can identfy any text with clues. Most OS's and many programs will have startup messages identifying the system on which they run. If you cannot see ANY text, then the code on the disk may not be in ASCII (unlikely) or may use a different encoding - try inverting all the data bytes and see if that turns up anything useful. Q for all: Would it be worth building a HEX viewer into ImageDisk so that you could look at track content without having to read the disk into a file first? Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Dec 4 08:34:13 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 06:34:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wang gear on eBay, 2200, no bids Message-ID: <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There's supposedly a 2200 in there, though there's a lot of stuff I don't recognizes. Any Wang fans on the list? http://cgi.ebay.com/vintage-COMPUTER-LOT-huge-heavy-WANG-PMI_W0QQitemZ170055531046QQihZ007QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem eBay: vintage COMPUTER LOT huge & heavy ,WANG ,PMI (item 170055531046 end time Dec-05-06 16:51:38 PST) --Bill From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Dec 4 05:39:10 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 11:39:10 +0000 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines In-Reply-To: <4573E3E6.894E0F21@cs.ubc.ca> References: <44440.68406.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <456BD13D.7090802@bluewin.ch> <456BF311.289E8BD2@cs.ubc.ca> <1165107475.30774.254.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4573E3E6.894E0F21@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <457408DE.304@gjcp.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: > They were from the 70's after all: the era of DEC purple, kitchen appliances > in harvest-gold and avocado-green (for North Americans), and too many other > design crimes. (Then again, this blue iMac in front of me may look horribly > kitschy/garrish in another 20 years.) you don't think it does already? ;-) Gordon From tarsi at binhost.com Mon Dec 4 09:25:39 2006 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Nathan E. Pralle) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 09:25:39 -0600 Subject: Wang gear on eBay, 2200, no bids In-Reply-To: <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45743DF3.5040308@binhost.com> > There's supposedly a 2200 in there, though there's a > lot of stuff I don't recognizes. Any Wang fans on the > list? I'm a big fan of my Wang. *ducks* Nathan From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Dec 4 10:07:20 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 10:07:20 -0600 Subject: Wang gear on eBay, 2200, no bids In-Reply-To: <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <457447B8.20007@pacbell.net> William Maddox wrote: > There's supposedly a 2200 in there, though there's a > lot of stuff I don't recognizes. Any Wang fans on the > list? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/vintage-COMPUTER-LOT-huge-heavy-WANG-PMI_W0QQitemZ170055531046QQihZ007QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > eBay: vintage COMPUTER LOT huge & heavy ,WANG ,PMI > (item 170055531046 end time Dec-05-06 16:51:38 PST) > > --Bill > > > One box looks like a 2200T CPU, and another is 2200MVP (looks like it is sporting 8 terminal ports). The CPUs are the things that look like metal suitcases. The 2280 is a removable hard disk unit. The terminal is probably a 2236DW. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 4 11:41:18 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 10:41:18 -0700 Subject: Wang gear on eBay, 2200, no bids In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 04 Dec 2006 06:34:13 -0800. <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 17 hrs drive from Salt Lake. It would be a 3 day affair getting the stuff for me. I would probably pay to have it shipped. It looks like he has the 2200 CPU unit but not the more recognizable green CRT front ends. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 4 11:42:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 10:42:44 -0700 Subject: Wang gear on eBay, 2200, no bids In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 04 Dec 2006 10:07:20 -0600. <457447B8.20007@pacbell.net> Message-ID: In article <457447B8.20007 at pacbell.net>, Jim Battle writes: > One box looks like a 2200T CPU, and another is 2200MVP (looks like it is > sporting 8 terminal ports). The CPUs are the things that look like > metal suitcases. The 2280 is a removable hard disk unit. The terminal > is probably a 2236DW. It also looks like he has a luggable/portalable in there, maybe a commodore SX-64? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wizard at voyager.net Mon Dec 4 14:02:50 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:02:50 -0500 Subject: Wang gear on eBay, 2200, no bids In-Reply-To: <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1165262570.3528.17.camel@linux.site> On Mon, 2006-12-04 at 06:34 -0800, William Maddox wrote: > There's supposedly a 2200 in there, though there's a > lot of stuff I don't recognizes. Any Wang fans on the > list? Don't ask, don't tell... (Step right up! Used Wang jokes... Get your used Wang jokes here...) Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 4 14:22:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 12:22:37 -0800 Subject: Wang gear on eBay, 2200, no bids In-Reply-To: <1165262570.3528.17.camel@linux.site> References: <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <1165262570.3528.17.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <4574130D.10994.239F1C5E@cclist.sydex.com> An Wang was a terrifically productive man. I'd rather have an autographed copy of his autobiography than a truckload of Wang iron. Here's a sample of this mind at work filed in 1964: http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/Wang-patent.html Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Dec 4 14:25:37 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 15:25:37 -0500 Subject: ebay dilema Message-ID: <003601c717e2$5c3cba80$0b01a8c0@game> What do you do when you buy a small lot of items, a piece that you wanted is not included (shown in the picture and stated in the inventory), and the seller does not respond to your questions (but you paid very little for the lot and there was a couple extra things included)? What would you people do? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 4 14:38:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 12:38:19 -0800 Subject: ebay dilema In-Reply-To: <003601c717e2$5c3cba80$0b01a8c0@game> References: <003601c717e2$5c3cba80$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <457416BB.1225.23AD7BC2@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Dec 2006 at 15:25, Teo Zenios wrote: > What do you do when you buy a small lot of items, a piece that you > wanted is not included (shown in the picture and stated in the > inventory), and the seller does not respond to your questions (but you > paid very little for the lot and there was a couple extra things > included)? What would you people do? Did you pay with PayPal? If so, you may want to file a claim against the seller. That puts the burden of proof on him, not you. Unless otherwise stated, pictures show what's being offered for sale. That's an eBay policy. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 4 14:56:53 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 13:56:53 -0700 Subject: ebay dilema In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:25:37 -0500. <003601c717e2$5c3cba80$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: In article <003601c717e2$5c3cba80$0b01a8c0 at game>, "Teo Zenios" writes: > [...] What would you people do? Use negative feedback? Not delivering goods advertised in the sale (both in the listing and in photographs) is a big no-no for ebay, even if the price of the auction is small. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 4 15:07:48 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 14:07:48 -0700 Subject: library book sales Message-ID: Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via library book sales? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 4 15:17:20 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 15:17:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: ebay dilema Message-ID: <200612042117.kB4LHIW9040542@keith.ezwind.net> --- Teo Zenios wrote: > What do you do when you buy a small lot of items, a > piece that you wanted is not included (shown in th e > picture and stated in the inventory), and the sell er > does not respond to your questions (but you paid > very little for the lot and there was a couple ext ra > things included)? What would you people do? > A similar thing happened to me a while ago. However, my situation was slightly different in that the seller apologised for losing one of the items and asked me if I was happy with the extra items he sent instead. In your case, if the seller doesn't respond I'd open up a dispute. If the seller still doesn't repond then post negative feedback. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 15:19:21 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 16:19:21 -0500 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I once bought a set of OS/2 diskettes. On 12/4/06, Richard wrote: > > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 4 15:20:34 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:20:34 -0600 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45749122.8030605@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>> I still have my (almost) fully-loaded Atom >> I was hoping that by 'fully loaded' you meant that it had the BBC BASIC, >> Econet and Colour boards :-) (I've never seen a real example of the latter, >> although I know that there's at least one in the UK) > > What does the colour board look like, and where does it fit? I can't recall what it looks like now - I've never seen the real board, and the only photo I knew of was on the 8bs website (which has been down for many many months now, although it will be coming back one day we're promised!) However, from memory, the board intercepted the signals to/from the video IC socket, and then the Atom's displaced video IC (umm, a 6847 I think) plugged into the colour board itself. I think that the 6847 chip was colour-ready anyway; it's just that the standard Atom doesn't include the necessary circuitry to make use of it (I think the floating point ROM actually contains the code to make use of the board). I also have a funny feeling that the colour board didn't provide component RGB - it'd only allow colour via the modulator and displayed on a TV. All the info - including schematics / parts list / theory of operation - is in the manual for the board; every so often I toy with the idea of building one, but then decide that it's a lot of effort [1] for not much gain (after all, it's not like there's a wealth of software out there which uses the board, so I'd be limited to whatever I decided to write myself) [1] Relatively speaking. The circuit's not complex, although I have a feeling that some of the listed parts may be hard to find these days. I'll dig out the manual tomorrow (I got back to the UK earlier today) if I get the chance and flick through it for useful info... (amazingly I know which shelf that one's on, but I'm about ready to fall over here :-) >> You know, I have a feeling that you can get 7805 regulators that'll handle 2A > > There's the 78S05 (2A ,in a plastic TO220 pacakge, like the plain 7805) > and the 78H05 (5A, in a metal TO3 pacakge) Heh, I don't think I've ever heard of the latter one... >> There's a lot of Atoms out there that have had the regulators bypassed, no >> sticker added, and then subsequently had 9V shoved through them :( > > s/through/across/ true :) > Ouch. I am sure that cooks a few ICs... Indeed. It's a shame, but then it's bad design on Acorn's part as it was pretty obvious that relying on a sticky label being present wasn't particularly foolproof! cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 4 15:23:09 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 14:23:09 -0700 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 04 Dec 2006 16:19:21 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "9000 VAX" writes: > I once bought a set of OS/2 diskettes. Heh heh. I was wondering if things like copies of Datamation or other now defunct periodicals might show up in that sort of sale. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Dec 4 15:36:56 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 13:36:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wang gear on eBay, 2200, no bids In-Reply-To: from Richard at "Dec 4, 6 10:42:44 am" Message-ID: <200612042136.kB4LauSI041368@floodgap.com> > > One box looks like a 2200T CPU, and another is 2200MVP (looks like it is > > sporting 8 terminal ports). The CPUs are the things that look like > > metal suitcases. The 2280 is a removable hard disk unit. The terminal > > is probably a 2236DW. > > It also looks like he has a luggable/portalable in there, maybe a > commodore SX-64? You mean the big black thing with a handle in the left column of pictures, fifth from the top? That's not an SX-64 unless he changed the case out (the handle is wrong, and the SX-64 is a much lighter grey; it also doesn't have those sort of retaining clips). I have no idea what it is really, but it does look interesting ... -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The best defense against logic is ignorance. ------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 4 16:17:57 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 14:17:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 04, 2006 02:07:48 PM Message-ID: <200612042217.kB4MHvk9015569@onyx.spiritone.com> > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? I typically pick up a few every year. I've had the best luck at an annual sale that is held locally to support some sort of Scholarship fund. One of my best finds there was a copy of "Mick and Brick". Last year was pretty poor picking for computer books, though several boxes of History books were purchased for the Library. The bulk of my vintage computer books have now been donated to the "Conner Bishop Historical Resource Center" to form the core of the Libraries Computer History section. I would ask anyone thinking of disposing of vintage computer documentation to think of us. http://www.conner-bishop.org Zane From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Dec 4 16:19:06 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 22:19:06 +0000 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <45749122.8030605@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 4/12/06 21:20, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > I'll dig out the manual tomorrow (I got back to the UK earlier today) if I get > the chance and flick through it for useful info... (amazingly I know which > shelf that one's on, but I'm about ready to fall over here :-) Welcome back to Blighty! I got some goodies for you for do yer back in with, namely the HP Spectrum Analyser and the Xerox 860 which a colleague of mine picked up this morning and rang me up swearing because of the weight :o) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 4 16:59:19 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:59:19 -0700 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4574A847.4020903@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? They keep tossing out the books I wanted before I got there. :( From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 4 17:08:19 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:08:19 -0800 Subject: library book sales Message-ID: <4574AA63.5010602@bitsavers.org> > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? Absolutely. Silicon Valley is one of the best places to be for this. This is where "vswmoretp" on eBay get some of their stuff. There is a whole used book buying/dealing subculture around the book sales out here. Get to know the people at your local library that handle the book sales. If you are after mags like Datamation, you may need to talk to them about saving them for you, since they probably would be recycled otherwise and not even put up for sale, since periodicals don't sell well. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 3 17:56:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 23:56:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 In-Reply-To: <45725111.9060200@pacbell.net> from "William Maddox" at Dec 2, 6 08:22:41 pm Message-ID: > > David Griffith wrote: > > > Sidenote: how hard would it be to make a paper tape reader and punch from > > scratch? The idea is to have a lightweight unit for playing with my > > SBC6120 and perhaps Altair reissue/clone (if and when I get one). > > Back in the Altair days, there was a company called Oliver Audio Engineering > that made a small optical papertape reader for hobbyist use. You pulled the Incidentally, I am pretty sure the 'special' ICs in this design are nothing more than selected 555 timers (they're used as schmitt triggers). > tape through manually. The read strobe was generated by sensing the sprocket > holes. It would not be difficult to recreate this device, or something > similar. An optical paper tape reader should be fairly easy to make. I would suggest running the tape between rollers (maybe raid parts from a VCR or something) and take a strobe pulse from a phototransistor on the sprocket track, rather than using sprocket feed. > > I think you'd need a machine shop and considerable skill to make a punch from > scratch, While it would not be beyond the capabilities of those folks who build > clocks and engines from scratch, you're best bet is to try to pick up one on The other problem is getting a reasonable life out of it. A good model engineer could make a set of punch pins and a die block, but could he harden them and then grind them to size again? It's one thing to make a punch that will punch a few feet of tape, quite another to make a machine that can be ysed for serious work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 3 18:04:33 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 00:04:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <45730665.60607@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Dec 3, 6 06:16:21 pm Message-ID: > > I want to convert a ASR33 from 110V/50Hz ( yes , 50Hz) to 220V. > > Is it sufficient to swap the motor and fuses ? I have never seen a 230V motor for an ASR33. All the ASR33s I've seen in the UK have 115V motors (and the same rating of fuse that you'd expect for a 115V machine). There's an autotransformer fitted in the stand to get 115V from the 230V mains. That's the change. Incidnetally, for those who haven't seen it, there seems to be a set of Model 33 manuals _including the parts list_ on E-bay at the moment. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 3 18:08:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 00:08:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 3, 6 11:39:40 am Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > [...] I like scheamtics of old > > computers for 2 reasons, firstly to learn how they worked, and secondly > > to be able to repair them if something failes. Only the first is really > > applicable to software, software doesn't fail in the same sense that > > hardware can. > > It fails in the same sense that a hardware design bug would be sitting > there permanently annoying you until you fixed it. Machines tend not > to ship with hardware bugs because they typically aren't useful with > hardware bugs. They do however ship with lots of software bugs, even > on older machines. True. That's why I said 'in the same sense'. It's quite possible for hardware to have worked perfectly for 20 years, and then to stop working (and not work agian until it's repaired) because some component has failed. I think it's very unlikely for software to work fine for 20 years, then crash and not run again because of some latent design bug (unless said software makes use of the real time/date, of course ;-)) -tony From rollerton at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 17:48:17 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 17:48:17 -0600 Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 In-Reply-To: References: <45725111.9060200@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <2789adda0612041548k14f46933w71f18783d3d47e1a@mail.gmail.com> China... On 12/3/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > David Griffith wrote: > > > > > Sidenote: how hard would it be to make a paper tape reader and punch > from > > > scratch? The idea is to have a lightweight unit for playing with my > > > SBC6120 and perhaps Altair reissue/clone (if and when I get one). > > > > Back in the Altair days, there was a company called Oliver Audio > Engineering > > that made a small optical papertape reader for hobbyist use. You pulled > the > > Incidentally, I am pretty sure the 'special' ICs in this design are > nothing more than selected 555 timers (they're used as schmitt > triggers). > > > tape through manually. The read strobe was generated by sensing the > sprocket > > holes. It would not be difficult to recreate this device, or something > > similar. > > An optical paper tape reader should be fairly easy to make. I would > suggest running the tape between rollers (maybe raid parts from a VCR or > something) and take a strobe pulse from a phototransistor on the sprocket > track, rather than using sprocket feed. > > > > > I think you'd need a machine shop and considerable skill to make a punch > from > > scratch, While it would not be beyond the capabilities of those folks > who build > > clocks and engines from scratch, you're best bet is to try to pick up > one on > > The other problem is getting a reasonable life out of it. A good model > engineer could make a set of punch pins and a die block, but could he > harden them and then grind them to size again? It's one thing to make a > punch that will punch a few feet of tape, quite another to make a machine > that can be ysed for serious work. > > -tony > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 4 17:51:22 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 23:51:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 4, 6 02:07:48 pm Message-ID: > > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? Well, perhaps not specifically computing, but certianly old technical books... A friend of mine, for example, got me 8 or so volumes of the 'Radiation Lab Seires' from a library clearout at the company where he worked... I bought 'Automatic Digital Computers' for a few pence from a school library sale. Many years later I realised what I'd actually bought :-) And I've had god finds at the public library sales -- things like the ARRL Antenna handbook, several books on Transputers, a programming book for the Motorola 88K, and so on. I will admit to ignoring content-free Mac and Windows books, though. Alas 'good' books have bevome much less common at library sales recently. Perhaps I've already bought them all... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 4 17:54:08 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 23:54:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <45749122.8030605@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 4, 6 03:20:34 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >>> I still have my (almost) fully-loaded Atom > >> I was hoping that by 'fully loaded' you meant that it had the BBC BASIC, > >> Econet and Colour boards :-) (I've never seen a real example of the latter, > >> although I know that there's at least one in the UK) > > > > What does the colour board look like, and where does it fit? > > I can't recall what it looks like now - I've never seen the real board, and > the only photo I knew of was on the 8bs website (which has been down for many > many months now, although it will be coming back one day we're promised!) > > However, from memory, the board intercepted the signals to/from the video IC > socket, and then the Atom's displaced video IC (umm, a 6847 I think) plugged Oh, right (and yes, the video chip is a 6847) > into the colour board itself. I think that the 6847 chip was colour-ready > anyway; it's just that the standard Atom doesn't include the necessary >From what I rememwebr of the 6847 datasheet, it generates the YUV signals for _NTSC_ colour. I guess the colour board converted those to PAL. > circuitry to make use of it (I think the floating point ROM actually contains > the code to make use of the board). I also have a funny feeling that the > colour board didn't provide component RGB - it'd only allow colour via the > modulator and displayed on a TV. That is not suprising. Getting RGB froma a 6847 is a little more complicated. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 4 18:15:48 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 16:15:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061204161415.Y18325@shell.lmi.net> > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? IBM PC Technical Reference Manual MS-DOS Encyclopedia From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 4 18:40:59 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 16:40:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Dec 04, 2006 11:51:22 PM Message-ID: <200612050041.kB50f0He018817@onyx.spiritone.com> > for the Motorola 88K, and so on. I will admit to ignoring content-free > Mac and Windows books, though. > > Alas 'good' books have bevome much less common at library sales recently. > Perhaps I've already bought them all... > > -tony No, the lack of "good" books is because they are all now those "content-free Mac, Windows, and *UNIX* books" with very few exceptions. Thanks to the popularity of Linux you really need to add Unix to the "content-free" catagory. Though most O'Reilly books are still worth picking up, recently I've gotten a lot of good use out of a couple previous version Web related O'Reilly books I picked up earlier in the year at a Library sale (I just happened to have taken a day of vacation and we ran into that sale on accident). Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 4 18:46:06 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 16:46:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <20061204161415.Y18325@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 04, 2006 04:15:48 PM Message-ID: <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> > D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? What percentage of the list just turned green with envy? Zane From fryers at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 19:15:23 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 01:15:23 +0000 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <20061204161415.Y18325@shell.lmi.net> <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 05/12/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? > > What percentage of the list just turned green with envy? 99%, if that low! I have just got hold of a new copy. If I had known what was in them, I would have shelled out for them ages ago. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Dec 4 19:22:56 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 20:22:56 -0500 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4574C9F0.2020202@compsys.to> >Tony Duell wrote: >>On Dec 1, 2006, at 12:26 PM, Richard wrote: >> >> >>>Someone asked me in private email why I'd want to do this -- I >>>consider the source code just as an important historical artifact as >>>the compiled binaries and physical hardware. For the same reason that >>>people want schematics for vintage hardware, having source code for >>>vintage software is also useful. >>> >>> >> Not only useful, but highly educational. A lot of this sort of >> >> > >I would argue software sources are more educational than useful (not that >education is not a very important 'use' :-)). I like scheamtics of old >computers for 2 reasons, firstly to learn how they worked, and secondly >to be able to repair them if something failes. Only the first is really >applicable to software, software doesn't fail in the same sense that >hardware can. > Jerome Fine replies: Actually, I disagree, particularly in regard to design bugs. At one point, I found some code in RT-11 which does not work correctly (specifically in the SL: under mapped monitors). When I attempted to fix the problem, it became apparent that it was a design flaw, not a program error. That led me to check the associated code in the monitor which led me to notice another bug, this one due to a programming error. In both cases, the bugs have been in the code for more than two decades and have probably never been specifically seen as the cause of any crashes - or at least that is what I suspect. If the bug in the monitor ever actually occurred in a running system and caused the system to crash (or something even worse), it would be almost impossible to duplicate and find. So software can also fail in ways that are similar to hardware problems - EXCEPT that software will NEVER develop an entirely new bug called a failure due to age problems whereas hardware will always eventually reach this stage if used long enough. If this latter characteristic is what you refer to as the prime difference between hardware and software, then I agree 100%!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 4 19:30:14 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 18:30:14 -0700 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <4574CBA6.4040309@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? I payed real $$$ for them. I figured I better buy them now before the revised edition comes out. His MIX computer was a classic design -- binary or decmal. His next computer is what I consider a RISC disaster from what I have seen. > What percentage of the list just turned green with envy? > Zane Only if you picked up working hardware for $1. From spc at conman.org Mon Dec 4 20:39:50 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 21:39:50 -0500 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <20061204161415.Y18325@shell.lmi.net> <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20061205023950.GE694@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Zane H. Healy once stated: > > D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? > > What percentage of the list just turned green with envy? Not I (he said, eyeing the three volumes he got for free from a University Library ... ) -spc (True ... and sad ... ) From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Dec 4 21:46:07 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 22:46:07 -0500 Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 In-Reply-To: References: <45725111.9060200@pacbell.net> from "William Maddox" at Dec 2, 6 08:22:41 pm Message-ID: <200612050352.kB53qJW3012257@hosting.monisys.ca> > Back in the Altair days, there was a company called Oliver Audio Engineering > that made a small optical papertape reader for hobbyist use. You pulled the > tape through manually. The read strobe was generated by sensing the sprocket > holes. It would not be difficult to recreate this device, or something > similar. I have the OAE-OP80A and it is very simple and quite reliable - in fact I've been using it to recover paper tapes recently. I have photos and a scan of the manual (with schematic) on my site, under the "Misc. Items" section near the bottom of the main page. Btw - I've just received the first shipment of the paper tapes I was promised, including quite a few Cromemco, Dazzler and TDL titles - I will be reading them over the next couple of weeks and will post the data streams to my site. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 20:53:40 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 15:53:40 +1300 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: <20061204161415.Y18325@shell.lmi.net> <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 12/5/06, Simon Fryer wrote: > On 05/12/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? > > > > What percentage of the list just turned green with envy? > > 99%, if that low! Count me green. > I have just got hold of a new copy. If I had known what was in them, I > would have shelled out for them ages ago. I know (in general terms) what's in them, but I haven't been able to bring myself to shell out the full tick. :-/ -ethan P.S. - if I ever get it in my head to "invent a new sort", I know a) to start with Knuth, and b) that I'm almost certainly wrong if I think I have a clever new way to do it. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 4 21:08:00 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 22:08:00 -0500 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: <20061204161415.Y18325@shell.lmi.net> <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Dec 4, 2006, at 9:53 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I have just got hold of a new copy. If I had known what was in >> them, I >> would have shelled out for them ages ago. > > I know (in general terms) what's in them, but I haven't been able to > bring myself to shell out the full tick. :-/ They're worth every penny. > P.S. - if I ever get it in my head to "invent a new sort", I know a) > to start with Knuth, and b) that I'm almost certainly wrong if I think > I have a clever new way to do it. Huh? Who was it that, a hundred or so years ago, asked the gov't to shut down the patent office because, surely, everything had already been invented? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 4 21:08:54 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 20:08:54 -0700 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 04 Dec 2006 20:22:56 -0500. <4574C9F0.2020202@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <4574C9F0.2020202 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > So software can also fail in ways that are similar to hardware > problems - EXCEPT that software will NEVER develop an entirely > new bug called a failure due to age problems whereas hardware > will always eventually reach this stage if used long enough. > If this latter characteristic is what you refer to as the prime > difference between hardware and software, then I agree 100%!!! You mean Bit Rot is a myth? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Dec 4 21:18:11 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 22:18:11 -0500 Subject: library book sales References: <20061204161415.Y18325@shell.lmi.net> <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <00c101c7181b$feaa8480$0b01a8c0@game> > Huh? Who was it that, a hundred or so years ago, asked the gov't > to shut down the patent office because, surely, everything had > already been invented? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Cape Coral, FL That was the guy running the patent office. And everything was invented which is why most new patents are "insert old patent here" + "on the net". Have you seen some of the software and internet patents being given out? If it was up to me there would be NO software patents at all. From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Dec 4 21:34:37 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 21:34:37 -0600 Subject: Wang gear on eBay, 2200, no bids In-Reply-To: <457447B8.20007@pacbell.net> References: <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <457447B8.20007@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4574E8CD.5010203@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > William Maddox wrote: >> There's supposedly a 2200 in there, though there's a >> lot of stuff I don't recognizes. Any Wang fans on the >> list? >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/vintage-COMPUTER-LOT-huge-heavy-WANG-PMI_W0QQitemZ170055531046QQihZ007QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >> >> eBay: vintage COMPUTER LOT huge & heavy ,WANG ,PMI >> (item 170055531046 end time Dec-05-06 16:51:38 PST) >> >> --Bill ... > One box looks like a 2200T CPU, and another is 2200MVP (looks like it is > sporting 8 terminal ports). The CPUs are the things that look like > metal suitcases. The 2280 is a removable hard disk unit. The terminal > is probably a 2236DW. I missed one. Back in the upper left corner of the first picture in the auction looks like an LVP (mvp in a different form factor along with an 8" fixed disk and an 8" floppy). You can see a picture of an LVP on my web site: http://www.wang2200.org/images/cpu_lvp.jpg So now it looks like there are at least four CPU's there. Looking at the first picture -- the 2200LVP in the upper left corner the "suitcase" on the ground in the foreground could be a 2200T (1st gen single user), 2200VP (2nd gen single user), or 2200MVP (2nd gen, multiuser). it is hard to tell from that angle the suitcase in the middle right is a 2200T the suitcase on the right in back is a 2200MVP You can tell the 2nd generation from the 1st generation because the cards are bigger so Wang retrofitted old cases with a taller cover panel to accomodate the extra card height. You can tell an MVP from a VP because the MVP will have one or more cards with four serial port connectors. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 4 21:41:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 19:41:19 -0800 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <457479DF.30766.2530BC74@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Dec 2006 at 20:08, Jerome Fine wrote: > So software can also fail in ways that are similar to hardware > problems - EXCEPT that software will NEVER develop an entirely > new bug called a failure due to age problems whereas hardware > will always eventually reach this stage if used long enough. > If this latter characteristic is what you refer to as the prime > difference between hardware and software, then I agree 100%!!! But that doesn't imply that time's not an enemy of software! Obsolescence is the biggest enemy--try making a single MS-DOS 2,1 C: partition on that new 250GB drive. In the 70's and early 80's, it wasn't unsual to find programs that don't deal with dates after 1999. A program may have worked well for more than 20 years suddenly becomes useless when the century changes. Old programs using program loops to introduce a small delay. On an XT, the following loop takes more than a second to execute: MOV CX, 0FFFFh Here: LOOP Here Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Mon Dec 4 21:48:59 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 22:48:59 -0500 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? Message-ID: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Whether vintage computer parts, electronics, or whatever .... just thought it would be a fun discussion thread. Rumor has it that the Chanukah fairy* is bringing a cold air intake kit for my Miata. Extra 25 horsepower. Fun!! :) - Evan * Hey, we don't have Santa, okay? From josefcub at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 21:53:40 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 21:53:40 -0600 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? In-Reply-To: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <9e2403920612041953m5519a71coeca502ac8901e3a9@mail.gmail.com> Evan, On 12/4/06, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Whether vintage computer parts, electronics, or whatever .... just thought > it would be a fun discussion thread. I'm getting another HP 95LX palmtop, with memory cards and sync cable (two things I lack), from Santa. If I'm really lucky, Santa says he'll bring me a 500mm prime telephoto for my Canon FTb, too. =) Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From josefcub at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 21:54:51 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 21:54:51 -0600 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? In-Reply-To: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <9e2403920612041954u4b9535d3q3e2168516e05f2c5@mail.gmail.com> On 12/4/06, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > * Hey, we don't have Santa, okay? > Santa, the Chanukah fairy*, the Yule Fairy, St. Nicholas... It's all about Coca Cola to me. *joking* -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 4 21:55:39 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 21:55:39 -0600 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? References: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <9e2403920612041953m5519a71coeca502ac8901e3a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <032e01c71821$3cdb4960$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > On 12/4/06, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Whether vintage computer parts, electronics, or whatever .... just >> thought >> it would be a fun discussion thread. eeesh... let's keep the thread at LEAST on classic computer related toys! Jay From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Dec 4 22:25:19 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 20:25:19 -0800 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <4574F4AF.4020800@msm.umr.edu> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? >> >> > >What percentage of the list just turned green with envy? > >Zane > > I did that at Fullerton, Ca. library sale. I recently got several very good Architechure books (Compter style) at Cypress, CA.'s sale last summer, including one which covered one of my interests, the Microdata 3200. Also covered was the way that the 360 firmware (360/50) was modified to run CPS, which I used at UMR in college. I was amazed to find two things that were so close to my interest at a random book sale event. My favorite was not at a Library book sale, but a Micro Center some years ago. They decided to start thinning out books in there book section, which used to be quite good, and started by marking all the K&R's down to $5.00 each. And those were the second edition ones. I bought them all, of course. BTW, at least here in Orange county they have decimated their once excellent book section for a huge flashy game display room. I can't blame them, but they are such bozos of marketing, I wish they would have kept the books anyway. I wonder how they survive againt the likes of Fry's and Comp USA (Fry's anyway). I do have to admire them for being persistant. Just wish they had not destroyed the book section. Down here in the Orange county area, the only book store that had had technical books of any use was Irvine Science and Technical books, but they closed their storefront and got some totally different domain name and went internet, as has OpAmp in LA. So now it is all amazon, i guess, with no useful place to stroll the aisles. Jim From evan at snarc.net Mon Dec 4 22:30:47 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 23:30:47 -0500 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <4574F4AF.4020800@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <003601c71826$22bfaf80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Micro Center isn't great, but I remember it being terrific (when I used to live in Cambridge) vs. CompUSA where I live now in New Jersey. I wish we had Micro Center or Frys here!!! There's a place nearby in Manhattan called Computer Book Works which has a great selection but it's expensive. That also makes me miss Cambridge -- there was Quantum Books, the MIT Press Bookstore, and the MIT Coop Bookstore all within one square (errr, triangular) block. -----Original Message----- From: jim stephens [mailto:jwstephens at msm.umr.edu] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 11:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: library book sales Zane H. Healy wrote: >>D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? >> >> > >What percentage of the list just turned green with envy? > >Zane > > I did that at Fullerton, Ca. library sale. I recently got several very good Architechure books (Compter style) at Cypress, CA.'s sale last summer, including one which covered one of my interests, the Microdata 3200. Also covered was the way that the 360 firmware (360/50) was modified to run CPS, which I used at UMR in college. I was amazed to find two things that were so close to my interest at a random book sale event. My favorite was not at a Library book sale, but a Micro Center some years ago. They decided to start thinning out books in there book section, which used to be quite good, and started by marking all the K&R's down to $5.00 each. And those were the second edition ones. I bought them all, of course. BTW, at least here in Orange county they have decimated their once excellent book section for a huge flashy game display room. I can't blame them, but they are such bozos of marketing, I wish they would have kept the books anyway. I wonder how they survive againt the likes of Fry's and Comp USA (Fry's anyway). I do have to admire them for being persistant. Just wish they had not destroyed the book section. Down here in the Orange county area, the only book store that had had technical books of any use was Irvine Science and Technical books, but they closed their storefront and got some totally different domain name and went internet, as has OpAmp in LA. So now it is all amazon, i guess, with no useful place to stroll the aisles. Jim From marvin at rain.org Mon Dec 4 22:43:14 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 20:43:14 -0800 Subject: ebay dilema Message-ID: <4574F8E2.9DA93E17@rain.org> > From: "Teo Zenios" > What do you do when you buy a small lot of items, a piece that you wanted is not included (shown in the picture and > stated in the inventory), and the seller does not respond to your questions (but you paid very little for the lot and > there was a couple extra things included)? What would you people do? For some reason, a number of people feel that spam filters are okay on their ebay email address. Others seem to feel that it is okay to check their email every week or two. You haven't said how long you've been waiting, but I would suggest at least a week. Personally, unless it was something important, I'd just forget it, and leave neutral feedback saying the piece you wanted wasn't included, but there were extra things. From curtis at hawkmountain.net Mon Dec 4 14:20:59 2006 From: curtis at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:20:59 -0500 Subject: PDP11 adventures Message-ID: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> OK... so I'm now the new (proud :-) ) owner of a PDP-11/83. I'm new to the PDP11s, so, I'm not even powering this thing up until I get educated. This is the config In the system (183QA-D2) box: M8637-EF (2MB ECC RAM) M8190-AE (11/83 CPU, FPJ11-AA) X, M9047 (nothing, grant continuity) M7196 (TSV05 controller) M7555, M9047 (RQDX3 MFM Winchester/floppy, grant continuity) M7513, M9404 (RQDXE RQDX extender for RQDX2/3, Q22 extender cpu end) X (nothing) X (nothing) In the BA23-CA expansion: M9405-YB, M9047 (Q22 extender far end, grant continuity) M8053-MA (RS232/423 w/DDCMP) M3104 (8 line ASYNC multiplexer) M3104 (8 line ASYNC multiplexer) M77651, M7555 (DRV11-WA 18/22 bit dma general purpose parallel interface, RQDX3) M7651, M7546 (DRV11-WA, TKQ50-AA TMSCP for TK50 controller) X (nothing) X (nothing) I recieved this with 1 TK50 drive in the BA23, no hard drives (I have a decent selection of MFM drives, but if anyone has any spare Maxtor XT2190 or XT1140s let me know). Anyone got any DEC drive sleds ? I could use 4. Also have a 'port panel' that wen on the rear of the rack these two boxes were pulled from... and a large cache of ribbon cables to connect everything up. Now... for questions: is FPJ11-AA floating point, and does that mean my cpu card has that built in ? What is the max ram ? i.e. how many more M8637-EF (or higher capacity) cards can be aquired and put in ? Anyone have a TSV05 tape drive local to Sharon, MA ? Or, anyone in need of a TSV05 controller ? What is DDCMP control ROM ? that my M8053-MA has ? What is a DRV11-WA general purpose 18/22 bit parallel interface ? Can this be used for a parallel printer ??? As I'd like to have larger storage on it at some point, I'd like to locate a SCSI (or possibly ESDI ?) controller. What should I be looking for, anyone have one ? I'm looking at running BSD (2.11 ?) and other PDP11 OSes... suggestions ? There doesn't seem to be a reason to the layout of the grant continuity cards. Shouldn't there be one in the left side of the 3rd slot from the top in the 183QA-D2 (system unit) ? What is the minimum card config to start testing with ? Any pointers on how the RQDX3 and RQDXE cards should wire up ? The RQDXE in the system unit has a wide ribbon cable running to the front (which I presume breaks into the control/data wiring for an MFM drive there).. but the RQDX3 doesn't connect to the RQDXE .. Sorry for the long post... I'm new to PDP11... Oh.. last thing... does anyone local to Sharon, MA 02067 have a 'proper' DEC RAC enclosure the is 'correct'/'period' for a PDP-11/83 ? (not full size please... this 11/83 is in my 2nd floor computer room... I currently do not want a full height 19" rack in there... something deskside size plz). Thnk that covers it for now. Thanks in adance everyone, -- Curt From irisworld at mac.com Mon Dec 4 15:14:47 2006 From: irisworld at mac.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 16:14:47 -0500 Subject: ebay dilema In-Reply-To: <457416BB.1225.23AD7BC2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <003601c717e2$5c3cba80$0b01a8c0@game> <457416BB.1225.23AD7BC2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Dec 4, 2006, at 3:56 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <003601c717e2$5c3cba80$0b01a8c0 at game>, > "Teo Zenios" writes: > >> [...] What would you people do? > > Use negative feedback? > > Not delivering goods advertised in the sale (both in the listing and > in photographs) is a big no-no for ebay, even if the price of the > auction is small. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! On Dec 4, 2006, at 3:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Dec 2006 at 15:25, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> What do you do when you buy a small lot of items, a piece that you >> wanted is not included (shown in the picture and stated in the >> inventory), and the seller does not respond to your questions (but >> you >> paid very little for the lot and there was a couple extra things >> included)? What would you people do? > > Did you pay with PayPal? If so, you may want to file a claim against > the seller. That puts the burden of proof on him, not you. Unless > otherwise stated, pictures show what's being offered for sale. > That's an eBay policy. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > I posted both of these response to save time. These are fine suggestions but honestly there's not really a whole lot you can do. Realize that negative feedback might get you negative feedback in return. I know, I know. How dare they? Well, the reality is: they do. As for Paypal, they don't really care too much. You can file a complaint that says it's not what you expected, BUT they don't hold themselves responsible for you being satisfied - UNLESS - you paid for the buyers insurance. Then you might be able to do something. Other then that, the complaint is closed just as fast as it's opened. You could always request the buyers information from eBay and give (he / she) a call. It's probably about your only recourse if they won't answer your email. Rob Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 5 00:07:55 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 00:07:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612050041.kB50f0He018817@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200612050041.kB50f0He018817@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: > No, the lack of "good" books is because they are all now those > "content-free Mac, Windows, and *UNIX* books" with very few exceptions. > Thanks to the popularity of Linux you really need to add Unix to the > "content-free" catagory. Though most O'Reilly books are still worth > picking up, recently I've gotten a lot of good use out of a couple > previous version Web related O'Reilly books I picked up earlier in the > year at a Library sale (I just happened to have taken a day of vacation > and we ran into that sale on accident). I often look for O'Reilly books while at the booksales. Wiley and Addison Wesley are also good to look for. I have a few local 'secret' sources for O'Reilly and other books which I won't divulge, mainly because they will sell me the overstock/remainder books for $1-3/each, so once or twice a year, I get to load up a shopping cart with good books :) -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 5 00:09:20 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 00:09:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <4574A847.4020903@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4574A847.4020903@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, woodelf wrote: > Richard wrote: > >> Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via >> library book sales? > > They keep tossing out the books I wanted before I got there. :( Volunteer to help sort books before the sale? -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 5 00:11:01 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 00:11:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Richard wrote: > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? I did years ago, not as much these days. I did end up with some very useful software too, even a boxed copy of Procomm Plus 2.0 for dos. -Toth From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 5 00:15:44 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 22:15:44 -0800 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <4574F4AF.4020800@msm.umr.edu> References: <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> <4574F4AF.4020800@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: At 8:25 PM -0800 12/4/06, jim stephens wrote: >My favorite was not at a Library book sale, but a Micro Center some years ago. > >They decided to start thinning out books in there book section, which used to >be quite good, and started by marking all the K&R's down to $5.00 each. And >those were the second edition ones. I bought them all, of course. I vaguely remember the Micro Center in the Washington DC area around '93, though I was only able to get there once, maybe twice in the three years I was stationed there. I picked up OS/2 2.0, a couple books, and a CD-ROM of questionable information (some good classic computer info on it though). The strange thing is among all the computer books and magazines, I also found a RPG magazine. >Down here in the Orange county area, the only book store that had had >technical books of any use was Irvine Science and Technical books, but >they closed their storefront and got some totally different domain name and >went internet, as has OpAmp in LA. So now it is all amazon, i guess, with >no useful place to stroll the aisles. Sounds like I'm lucky to live in the land of Powells Books, though I have to avoid going to the main store, or the Technical bookstore out of fear for my wallet. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 5 00:26:59 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 00:26:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: ebay dilema In-Reply-To: References: <003601c717e2$5c3cba80$0b01a8c0@game> <457416BB.1225.23AD7BC2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Robert Borsuk wrote: > I posted both of these response to save time. These are fine > suggestions but honestly there's not really a whole lot you can do. > Realize that negative feedback might get you negative feedback in > return. I know, I know. How dare they? Well, the reality is: they > do. As for Paypal, they don't really care too much. You can file a > complaint that says it's not what you expected, BUT they don't hold > themselves responsible for you being satisfied - UNLESS - you paid for > the buyers insurance. Then you might be able to do something. Other > then that, the complaint is closed just as fast as it's opened. You > could always request the buyers information from eBay and give (he / > she) a call. It's probably about your only recourse if they won't > answer your email. Actually, there are ways to deal with it, but leaving a negative feedback should be a very, very last resort option. Once a negative feedback is left, a seller usually won't work with you and won't care to resolve the problem. First, calling the seller is indeed a good idea. If that doesn't help, then file a complaint via Paypal. If the normal complaint processes don't work, call Paypal (888) 221-1161 and ask for a supervisor, they'll dance around and not want to transfer you, but once you get one, ask for someone in the executive escalations department. They *really* won't want to transfer you there, but those are the only people that can really get things done at Paypal. If the seller really warrants it, call eBay directly (800) 322-9266 or (888) 749-3229 and ask the operator (option 3) for Customer Service. You'll be on hold a long time, but tell the CSR what happened and they'll most likely add a note about the incident in the seller's account records. After enough incidents, eBay will get rid of the seller. (And yes, I've had my fair share of both bad sellers and bad buyers. In fact, I have one seller I'm about to file a mail fraud report on as I just got the remaining paperwork from the USPS last week.) -Toth From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Dec 5 00:55:29 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 01:55:29 -0500 Subject: library book sales References: <200612050041.kB50f0He018817@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <011901c7183a$5a32d8c0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 1:07 AM Subject: Re: library book sales > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > No, the lack of "good" books is because they are all now those > > "content-free Mac, Windows, and *UNIX* books" with very few exceptions. > > Thanks to the popularity of Linux you really need to add Unix to the > > "content-free" catagory. Though most O'Reilly books are still worth > > picking up, recently I've gotten a lot of good use out of a couple > > previous version Web related O'Reilly books I picked up earlier in the > > year at a Library sale (I just happened to have taken a day of vacation > > and we ran into that sale on accident). > > I often look for O'Reilly books while at the booksales. Wiley and Addison > Wesley are also good to look for. I have a few local 'secret' sources for > O'Reilly and other books which I won't divulge, mainly because they will > sell me the overstock/remainder books for $1-3/each, so once or twice a > year, I get to load up a shopping cart with good books :) > > -Toth Do you see many older engineering books from the 1930's? I always found those interesting. Haven't been to a library booksale for ages, they usually just sell books donated to them don't they or do they sell things from their shelves? I collect military history books as well as older computer ones, just don't have much space for more books at the moment. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Dec 5 01:06:09 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 07:06:09 +0000 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45751A61.3000202@dunnington.plus.com> Richard wrote: > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? Sometimes. There's an annual book sale here, with books from a number of academic and public libraries collected together. I picked up a copy of 101 BASIC Computer Games for 1.00UKP once, some Best of Creative Computing, several books on programming languages, a few books on microprocessors, computer architecture, and bit-slice design, some data books, books by Marvin Minsky and others, and a couple of DEC handbooks, amongst many others. Of course, it takes patience to sift through the outdated Windows manuals, alternative "science", and all the other stuff these sales have. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 5 01:23:02 2006 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 07:23:02 +0000 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? In-Reply-To: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <45751E56.3080400@philpem.me.uk> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Whether vintage computer parts, electronics, or whatever .... just thought > it would be a fun discussion thread. I just blew most of my budget on a new digital camera - a Canon EOS 400D (Digital Rebel XTi). It's a nice camera, but buying it has thinned my wallet considerably... I did get some nice pictures out of it though - . Shame it's been alternating between freezing cold, cloudy, and heavy rain (and combinations thereof) all week. Not exactly prime photography weather... I'm hoping to get a 70-200mm lens for the 400D later on this month, and maybe a new TFT monitor (the antiglare coating on my Mitsubishi CRT has failed, and it's picking up a nasty static charge while it's running - switching it off results in me getting zapped). To be honest though, the one thing I do want is the Jupiter Ace motherboard I asked Lee Davison to repair. He seems to be actively ignoring my emails and I've lost his snail-mail address... > Rumor has it that the Chanukah fairy* is bringing a cold air intake kit for > my Miata. Extra 25 horsepower. Fun!! :) > * Hey, we don't have Santa, okay? That's OK. Not everyone does - frankly I couldn't give a hoot. The winter holiday is becoming rather over-commercialised IMO. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Dec 5 02:27:33 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 08:27:33 +0000 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? In-Reply-To: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: On 5/12/06 03:48, "Evan Koblentz" wrote: > Whether vintage computer parts, electronics, or whatever .... just thought > it would be a fun discussion thread. Hopefully, either one or two Hungarian Videoton TVComputers, aka a locally re-engineered version of the Enterprise 64 that the country's biggest domestic appliance manufacturer took on when Enterprise UK went down in 1985/6. Videoton had already been making their own version of some of the Enterprise peripherals so I guess coming up with their own design of the machine was logical, and it'll be interesting to see how they did equivalents of the two specialised sound and video chips in the Enterprise. Enterprise page (hopelessly outdated): http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Enterprise/index.php Pic of the TVC: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Enterprise/tvc.jpg > Rumor has it that the Chanukah fairy* is bringing a cold air intake kit for > my Miata. Extra 25 horsepower. Fun!! :) Can't you just leave the hood up? :oD -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From trag at io.com Tue Dec 5 02:35:00 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 02:35:00 -0600 Subject: Mac IIfx SIMMs, Continued from about 1 year ago... In-Reply-To: <200612050640.kB56eNIJ013158@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612050640.kB56eNIJ013158@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Leaving out a lot of stuff over the last year that probably no-one wants to read about, I finally built some 16MB SIMMs for the Mac IIfx. Suffice it to say that I took a circuitous route to getting my boards made and there were many layouts along the way. The IIfx uses an oddball 64 pin SIMM which is nearly identical to 30 pin SIMMs, *except* the data-out and data-in busses are separate. This allows the memory controller to latch the data for writes, signal the CPU that the transaction is complete in two cycles, and then proceed with the actual write to RAM. Since the write data is sitting in a little buffer-to-SIMM cul'de'sac it does not interfere with other use of the data bus. Memory chips which are X 1 memory chips (e.g. 16M X 1) have separate data in and data out pins, though in most SIMMs, they're simply tied together and run to the SIMM data bus. I had a small supply of 16M X 1 chips on hand, so first I built some 16MB SIMMs with eight 16M X 1 chips each. That was very straight-forward, no surprises and worked fine. That is not the interesting part. Next I built some SIMMs out of 16M X 4 memory chips, of which I have a much larger supply. The problem with 16M X 4 chips for this application is that they do not have separate data-in and data-out pins. They have combined D/Q pins. This presents a problem as simply tieing them together would mean that the buffered writes would interfere with other activity on the data bus. Most of the discussion a year ago was how to get around that problem. I finally tested it. This is the (I hope) interesting part. My first idea was to use a pair of octal buffers per SIMM, such as the TI SN74ABT241. Four of the eight buffers are controlled by an active_low OE and four of them are controlled by an active_high OE. This makes it convenient to use one buffer per 16M X 4 chip. I planned to use WE_ to control the buffers. The active_low buffers would route data from the D/Q chip pins to the SIMM data_in pins. The active_high buffers would route data from the D/Q chip pins to the SIMM data_out pins. Before trying it I realized that the flaw in this plan was that when the output of the memory chips is high-Z (high impedance/no signal) the buffer would still be trying to drive some deterministic output onto the data bus as long as WE was high. My next thought was to invert CAS and logically AND it with WE to control the data_out buffers. The data_in buffers would still be controlled by WE alone. That way the data_out pins of the SIMM would only be driven when there was actually a Read taking place. However, the timing on this looks wonky. Data out from a read is usually held a while after CAS goes high again, but this scheme would cut off the data_out signal (switch back to high-Z) very shortly after CAS goes high. My third idea was to ask this list if there was some component that would just pass the signal along, including high-Z signals. Someone pointed me at a family of components which led me to FET Bus Switches. So an octal bus switch such as the SN74CBT3244 looked like a good option. The only problem with the SN74CBT3244 is that both OEs are active low (each OE controls four of the eight switches). I wish there was a SN74CBT3241 with one active low and one active high OE. So, I simply controlled the OE for the data_in pins with the WE signal and controlled the OE for the data_out pins with the inverted WE signal. SC-70 packaged inverters are *tiny*. Ultimately, the SIMMS based on 16M X 4 chips with two SN74CBT3244 octal switches controlled by WE and inverted WE switching between data_in and data_out worked. The other two configurations using the SN74ABT241 octal buffers did not work. I tried both control configurations. I tried two different assemblies. And when the second one did not work, I converted it to the SN74CBT3244 configuration just to test whether the memory chips were good. After the conversion to the workable control circuitry the SIMM worked. So, unless I received a bad batch of SN74ABT241 chips, I'd say that the Bus Switching scheme works and the Buffer scheme does not work. When I tested my first SN74CBT3244 controlled SIMM I placed it in the D24 - D31 SIMM socket, while the other three SIMMs were the conventional ones built from 16M X 1 chips. It almost booted, but not quite. Moving the SN74CBT3244 controlled SIMM to any of the other three sockets resulted in it working, but it would not work in that one socket. Hoping that the problem had something to do with combining SIMMs of such different components, I built a second SN74CBT3244 controlled SIMM. With that one installed in the D16 - D23 socket, the original in the D24 - D31 socket and the other two sockets with 16M X 1 based SIMMs the machine booted and passed memory tests. Similarly the machine works fine with three and four of the SN74CBT3244 controlled SIMMs installed. Any idea why it would not work when just one SIMM was different and installed in that one socket? Much of the IIfx's peripherals seem to use only 8 bits and the 8 bits they use appear to be D24 - D31, so I would guess it has something to do with that. Also, I've always heard/read that when a machine needs four SIMMs at a time, one should install SIMMs of the same manufacture and composition. But why is that true, electrically and logically? If the SIMMs meet timing specification, shouldn't they work together even if they're built of wildly different components? What difference does it make if some SIMMs are 60 ns and others are effectively 70ns if the machine requires 80ns and so they're all meeting spec? Or why should it matter if some SIMMs have a bit more drive current or sink a bit more current on writes than others, as long as they are all within specfications? Yet it seems that it matters. Why? I could understand it if some memory chips were 13 X 11 addressed and others were 12 X 12, but these are *all* 12 X 12, so that is not the issue here. So why should combining SIMMs built from 16X1 chips with SIMMs built from 16X4 chips not work in some configurations? Yet when placed in like groups they work fine? Jeff Walther From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Tue Dec 5 02:52:00 2006 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 03:52:00 -0500 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <003601c71826$22bfaf80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: Evan, There is a Micro Center in Villanova here right by Philly. Greg -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 11:31 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: library book sales Micro Center isn't great, but I remember it being terrific (when I used to live in Cambridge) vs. CompUSA where I live now in New Jersey. I wish we had Micro Center or Frys here!!! There's a place nearby in Manhattan called Computer Book Works which has a great selection but it's expensive. That also makes me miss Cambridge -- there was Quantum Books, the MIT Press Bookstore, and the MIT Coop Bookstore all within one square (errr, triangular) block. -----Original Message----- From: jim stephens [mailto:jwstephens at msm.umr.edu] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 11:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: library book sales Zane H. Healy wrote: >>D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? >> >> > >What percentage of the list just turned green with envy? > >Zane > > I did that at Fullerton, Ca. library sale. I recently got several very good Architechure books (Compter style) at Cypress, CA.'s sale last summer, including one which covered one of my interests, the Microdata 3200. Also covered was the way that the 360 firmware (360/50) was modified to run CPS, which I used at UMR in college. I was amazed to find two things that were so close to my interest at a random book sale event. My favorite was not at a Library book sale, but a Micro Center some years ago. They decided to start thinning out books in there book section, which used to be quite good, and started by marking all the K&R's down to $5.00 each. And those were the second edition ones. I bought them all, of course. BTW, at least here in Orange county they have decimated their once excellent book section for a huge flashy game display room. I can't blame them, but they are such bozos of marketing, I wish they would have kept the books anyway. I wonder how they survive againt the likes of Fry's and Comp USA (Fry's anyway). I do have to admire them for being persistant. Just wish they had not destroyed the book section. Down here in the Orange county area, the only book store that had had technical books of any use was Irvine Science and Technical books, but they closed their storefront and got some totally different domain name and went internet, as has OpAmp in LA. So now it is all amazon, i guess, with no useful place to stroll the aisles. Jim From jvdg at sparcpark.net Tue Dec 5 04:04:45 2006 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (jvdg at sparcpark.net) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 11:04:45 +0100 Subject: Mac IIfx SIMMs, Continued from about 1 year ago... Message-ID: <1xkg18cr3e335jn.051220061104@jvdg.com> Jeff Walther wrote: > Leaving out a lot of stuff over the last year that probably no-one > wants to read about, I finally built some 16MB SIMMs for the Mac IIfx. [...] That is great news. Will you be making your schematics and PCB designs public? I have two RAM-starved IIfx's here that could be put to good use with a little memory added. ,xtG tsooJ From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Dec 5 02:47:10 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 08:47:10 +0000 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? In-Reply-To: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <4575320E.7070306@gjcp.net> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Whether vintage computer parts, electronics, or whatever .... just thought > it would be a fun discussion thread. Not sure if it counts, but I get to buy the bits to make a battery belt for my JVC KY-15/BR-S411E camera and dockable recorder. Hey, it's a classic broadcast camera! Incidentally if anyone's got the workshop manual for the BR-S411E S-VHS recorder, or the BR-S411U NTSC version, give me a shout. > Rumor has it that the Chanukah fairy* is bringing a cold air intake kit for > my Miata. Extra 25 horsepower. Fun!! :) Ah. Well, today I get to jack up the CX and see if it really does have a cracked lower hub mounting. There's a horrible scraping noise from down around the front wheel that started very suddenly. Seems even lovely soft oleopneumatic suspension can't save it from Glasgow's potholes... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Dec 5 02:54:59 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 08:54:59 +0000 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? In-Reply-To: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <457533E3.2070802@gjcp.net> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Whether vintage computer parts, electronics, or whatever .... just thought > it would be a fun discussion thread. Oh, forgot to mention - just to bring it vaguely on topic, although I posted too soon (lack of morning coffee) - I will be firing up my ZX Spectrum once my sister and her bf come round here, for that authentic "Christmas 1983" touch. Then we're going to watch Wargames, and listen to Now That's What I Call Music! on vinyl. Or not. Probably not the music bit, anyway. Gordon. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 05:12:46 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 00:12:46 +1300 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? In-Reply-To: <457533E3.2070802@gjcp.net> References: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <457533E3.2070802@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 12/5/06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Oh, forgot to mention - just to bring it vaguely on topic, although I > posted too soon (lack of morning coffee) - I will be firing up my ZX > Spectrum... My hosts here in Christchurch have a ZX Spectrum... any pointers to some interesting Xmas-related demos I could aquire via the 'net? (thinking along the lines of the classic C-64 Xmas in-store-windows program from Xmas '82). -ethan From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Dec 5 06:06:53 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 13:06:53 +0100 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-12-04 at 15:20 -0500, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > OK... so I'm now the new (proud :-) ) owner of a PDP-11/83. Congratulations!! > I recieved this with 1 TK50 drive in the BA23, no hard drives (I have a > decent > selection of MFM drives, but if anyone has any spare Maxtor XT2190 or > XT1140s > let me know). Anyone got any DEC drive sleds ? I could use 4. In my BA123 the disks have been screwed into the sled slot, I don't know if this is doable with the BA23. > is FPJ11-AA floating point, and does that mean my cpu card has that > built in ? Yes, the PDP-11/83 CPU has built-in floating-point. > What is the max ram ? i.e. how many more M8637-EF (or higher capacity) > cards can be aquired and put in ? The maximum amount of RAM you can put in a PDP-11 is 4 MB. 2MB should be plenty for everything but 2.11BSD - in which case it is merely sufficient. You also seem to have PMI memory, which means that memory accesses go via the private memory interconnect rather than the main I/O bus. Many PDP-11/83s (like mine :\) came with QBUS memory. > Anyone have a TSV05 tape drive local to Sharon, MA ? Or, anyone in need of > a TSV05 controller ? The TSV05 is, I believe, a Pertec controller (which shipped with a Cipher M890/M891 or something thereabouts badged as a TSV05). It should work with any Pertec tape drive. > What is DDCMP control ROM ? that my M8053-MA has ? Something related to DECnet over serial ports, that's all I know about that, though I could guess that it's used for network booting. > What is a DRV11-WA general purpose 18/22 bit parallel interface ? Can > this be used for a parallel printer ??? It is general purpose.. :) I think this is just 64 bidirectional I/O ports which can be used for most things, I have two or three myself, but I haven't toyed with them. Never tried putting a Centronics cable on it. > As I'd like to have larger storage on it at some point, I'd like to > locate a SCSI > (or possibly ESDI ?) controller. What should I be looking for, anyone have > one ? The SCSI controllers are relatively hard to come by, but the Emulex DQ07 (iirc) seems to be one of the most common, and is the one I have. > I'm looking at running BSD (2.11 ?) and other PDP11 OSes... suggestions ? 2.11 will run happily on your machine, if you give it disk space enough. > There doesn't seem to be a reason to the layout of the grant continuity > cards. > Shouldn't there be one in the left side of the 3rd slot from the top in > the 183QA-D2 > (system unit) ? > > What is the minimum card config to start testing with ? CPU. The CPU has a built-in serial port and will give out a diagnostic if it cannot find RAM. > Any pointers on how the RQDX3 and RQDXE cards should wire up ? The > RQDXE in the system unit has a wide ribbon cable running to the front > (which I presume breaks into the control/data wiring for an MFM drive > there).. but the RQDX3 doesn't connect to the RQDXE .. IIRC, my RQDXE does connect with the wide ribbon cable to the RQDX3. The connectors for the MFM and FD are on the RQDXE itself. > Sorry for the long post... I'm new to PDP11... No problem, hope you'll have fun with it. :) -Tore From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 06:27:57 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 01:27:57 +1300 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 12/6/06, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > On Mon, 2006-12-04 at 15:20 -0500, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > OK... so I'm now the new (proud :-) ) owner of a PDP-11/83. > > Congratulations!! Indeed - nicely loaded machine. > > Anyone got any DEC drive sleds ? I could use 4. > > In my BA123 the disks have been screwed into the sled slot, I don't know > if this is doable with the BA23. I don't know either... I've only ever used sleds with a BA23. I haven't tried it myself, but it may be possible to fabricate something close enough to work with ordinary shop tools and a sheet of plexiglass/perspex. Has anyone on the list ever tried to make DEC drive sleds from scratch? > > What is DDCMP control ROM ? that my M8053-MA has ? > > Something related to DECnet over serial ports, that's all I know about > that, though I could guess that it's used for network booting. I would think it's to boot the machine over DDCMP from a MOP server, but I don't have any direct experience with it. > > What is a DRV11-WA general purpose 18/22 bit parallel interface ? Can > > this be used for a parallel printer ??? > > It is general purpose.. :) I think this is just 64 bidirectional I/O > ports which can be used for most things, I have two or three myself, but > I haven't toyed with them. Never tried putting a Centronics cable on it. It's just unformatted parallel I/O with, ISTR, handshaking lines. You might be able to hook a parallel printer to one, but there's a good chance you'd need to invert one or more of the handshake lines, and you'd probably have to write your own driver to emulate an LPV11, but with DRV11-W I/O instructions. They were commonly used for a wide channel CPU-to-CPU interface, or to attach strange peripherals that had no Qbus interfaces. I don't recall ever seeing them used as printer ports (the PIO-driven LPV11 being much cheaper at the time). > > As I'd like to have larger storage on it at some point, I'd like to > > locate a SCSI > > (or possibly ESDI ?) controller. What should I be looking for, anyone have > > one ? > > The SCSI controllers are relatively hard to come by, but the Emulex DQ07 > (iirc) seems to be one of the most common, and is the one I have. Viking and CMD controllers were also common, IIRC. Unless you have a small quantity of ESDI drives, I'd suggest you be on the lookout for a Qbus SCSI controller. They aren't usually under $250 US, but even at that price (if it hasn't gone up recently), the ability to use more modern drives is rather nice unless you are more interested in a 100% vintage arrangement from before the time of SCSI (by the time the 11/83 came around, SCSI drives weren't that rare on DEC machines, but the controllers never were inexpensive). > > I'm looking at running BSD (2.11 ?) and other PDP11 OSes... suggestions ? > > 2.11 will run happily on your machine, if you give it disk space enough. 2BSD is a nice choice if you want Unix. RT-11 was common for smaller systems, and RSX-11/M and RSTS were common for larger configurations. If you aren't married to Unix, RT-11 is simple enough to pick up quickly, especially if you have much MS-DOS or CP/M experience. I went the other way - RT-11 first, then CP/M... made learning to get around on a Kaypro a snap. There are lesser-known PDP-11 OSes, but between Unix and RT-11, you should have plenty to play around with. -ethan From RMeenaks at olf.com Tue Dec 5 07:16:48 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 08:16:48 -0500 Subject: REQUEST: Looking for a VME64x backplane or chassis Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B0EEA@cpexchange.olf.com> I need a true 5-pin VME64x backplane or chassis for my VME-based UltraSPARC system. Does anyone have any? I do have a VME chassis, but it is the standard 3-pin VME which will not help me... Thanks, Ram From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 5 07:25:27 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 07:25:27 -0600 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? In-Reply-To: References: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <457533E3.2070802@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45757347.1070303@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > My hosts here in Christchurch have a ZX Spectrum... any pointers to > some interesting Xmas-related demos I could aquire via the 'net? > (thinking along the lines of the classic C-64 Xmas in-store-windows > program from Xmas '82). Hmm, not quite a demo, but the guy who wrote the Monty Mole series of games did a one-off Christmas game called, I think, 'Moley Christmas' for the cover of one of the popular Spectrum mags of the time (either Crash or Your Sinclair). If you're into platform games then tracking that down might be an idea... (I've almost certainly still got it on tape *somewhere* so could look into finding it and converting it to mp3 or whatever if needed) cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taking a bath From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 09:16:37 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 10:16:37 -0500 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: >On 12/5/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >Unless you have a small quantity of ESDI drives, I'd suggest you be on >the lookout for a Qbus SCSI controller. They aren't usually under >$250 US, but even at that price (if it hasn't gone up recently), the >ability to use more modern drives is rather nice unless you are more >interested in a 100% vintage arrangement from before the time of SCSI >(by the time the 11/83 came around, SCSI drives weren't that rare on >DEC machines, but the controllers never were inexpensive). Or you can take a look of my project (http://www.mscpscsi.com). After fixing several bugs I am more confident than ever that this project will be successful. Now I am even trying to get a PDP11 to further test the MSCP commands of "erase" and "format" (never used by NetBSD) but the PDP11 is very heavy to haul and I need to find a spare time to deal with this issue. Having 3 commitments with 3 professors, I can barely find any time. vax, 9000 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 5 10:45:00 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 08:45:00 -0800 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: At 1:27 AM +1300 12/6/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: >I don't know either... I've only ever used sleds with a BA23. > >I haven't tried it myself, but it may be possible to fabricate >something close enough to work with ordinary shop tools and a sheet of >plexiglass/perspex. Has anyone on the list ever tried to make DEC >drive sleds from scratch? I might be getting it confused with a 3rd party chassis, but I'm pretty sure I've seen a metal drive sled, rather than the standard DEC Plastic sleds. At the same time, getting the thickness right is what will cause problems I suspect. >>The SCSI controllers are relatively hard to come by, but the Emulex DQ07 >>(iirc) seems to be one of the most common, and is the one I have. > >Viking and CMD controllers were also common, IIRC. It has been my experience that the Viking controllers were *very* common and rebadged by at least a couple companies. All of my main PDP-11's are using Viking QDT & UDT controllers. >Unless you have a small quantity of ESDI drives, I'd suggest you be on >the lookout for a Qbus SCSI controller. They aren't usually under >$250 US, but even at that price (if it hasn't gone up recently), the >ability to use more modern drives is rather nice unless you are more >interested in a 100% vintage arrangement from before the time of SCSI >(by the time the 11/83 came around, SCSI drives weren't that rare on >DEC machines, but the controllers never were inexpensive). If he looks for a ESDI controller, I'd recommend the Webster WQESD/04 controller. Personally it is the one non-SCSI 3rd party controller I'd want to run (I did for several years). >2BSD is a nice choice if you want Unix. RT-11 was common for smaller >systems, and RSX-11/M and RSTS were common for larger configurations. > >If you aren't married to Unix, RT-11 is simple enough to pick up >quickly, especially if you have much MS-DOS or CP/M experience. I >went the other way - RT-11 first, then CP/M... made learning to get >around on a Kaypro a snap. I've found one of the advantages of SCSI is that it's easy to use drive trays to run multiple OS's. RT-11 is very nice. Somehow either RSX-11M or RSX-11M+ seem a bit more appropriate for the system in question. I'm not sure I'd recommend RSTS/E as a first OS. BTW, another advantage of SCSI is attaching a CD-ROM drive, which can make installing an OS easier. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 11:10:35 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 06:10:35 +1300 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 12/6/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I might be getting it confused with a 3rd party chassis, but I'm > pretty sure I've seen a metal drive sled, rather than the standard > DEC Plastic sleds. At the same time, getting the thickness right is > what will cause problems I suspect. Hmm... I don't recall ever seeing a metal drive sled for a BA23 (the OP's expansion box), only black plastic, with maybe one translucent grey one out of the whole lot. >From what I remember about them, thickness is, of course, an important dimension, but really only the edges... the part under the drive can vary a bit and still leave room for a full-height drive, not that one is horribly likely to be using anything that large with the abundance of 1GB and 2GB 3.5" drives from their heyday 10 years ago. I'd thought of, essentially, taking a plexiglass sheet, cutting the outlines on a table saw (or whatever saw one has that can make long, straight cuts (i.e., probably not a hand saw without a bunch of filing), then using the dado blade and the fence to mill down the long sides to the requisite thickness to fit down the slides in the BA23. After that, the only fiddly bits are the drive screw holes and the latch hole for the front of the plate, unless I've forgotten some detail. I don't think the bent metal springs on the back of the plate are _essential_, only nice to have where possible. In case I've forgotten some detail, I was hoping someone with some experience fabricating replacements could chime in - I, for one, have no idea what any of the measurements might be, and I won't have a drive sled in front of me for a month. > >Viking and CMD controllers were also common, IIRC. > > It has been my experience that the Viking controllers were *very* > common and rebadged by at least a couple companies. All of my main > PDP-11's are using Viking QDT & UDT controllers. I can entirely believe that. > If he looks for a ESDI controller, I'd recommend the Webster WQESD/04 > controller. Personally it is the one non-SCSI 3rd party controller > I'd want to run (I did for several years). I've heard of that one, but I don't think I have any experience with it. > I've found one of the advantages of SCSI is that it's easy to use > drive trays to run multiple OS's. Absolutely - quick swap-in-out, easy to get one drive per OS, etc. > RT-11 is very nice. Agreed. > Somehow > either RSX-11M or RSX-11M+ seem a bit more appropriate for the system > in question. I'm not sure I'd recommend RSTS/E as a first OS. Agreed as well. I have nothing against RSTS/E, but having worked with all three OSes, I'd suggest learning something about RT-11 before tackling RSTS, and even then, seeing if RSX11M or M+ had something to offer before tackling RSTS. It has its place, but that place tended to be larger systems intended for multiple simultaneous users. The OP's CPU has plenty of horsepower to go around, but RSTS is complex enough that it might take a lot of work to get a system to the point where it's something fun to play on rather than a seemingly-perpetual exercise in software archaeology. I've done both RSTS and RSX sysgens... the RSX ones seemed to be more straightforward and resulted in a running system with less user intervention. > BTW, another advantage of SCSI is attaching a CD-ROM drive, which can > make installing an OS easier. True that. I have zero experience with CD-ROMs on PDP-11s, so owners of SCSI cards will have to chime in (to date, my only experience with Qbus SCSI is with MicroVAXen). -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 5 11:17:09 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 12:17:09 -0500 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <34F0D00D-9A45-4736-BB62-F59A53D16027@neurotica.com> On Dec 5, 2006, at 12:10 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Agreed as well. I have nothing against RSTS/E, but having worked with > all three OSes, I'd suggest learning something about RT-11 before > tackling RSTS, and even then, seeing if RSX11M or M+ had something to > offer before tackling RSTS. It has its place, but that place tended > to be larger systems intended for multiple simultaneous users. The > OP's CPU has plenty of horsepower to go around, but RSTS is complex > enough that it might take a lot of work to get a system to the point > where it's something fun to play on rather than a seemingly-perpetual > exercise in software archaeology. I've done both RSTS and RSX > sysgens... the RSX ones seemed to be more straightforward and resulted > in a running system with less user intervention. Interesting...My RSTS vs. RSX experience has been exactly the opposite. For me, on my old 11/34a eons ago, an RSX sysgen (v4.1) took many hours of painstaking work, whereas a RSTS sysgen (v9.4) took five minutes of interactive work and then let the command procedure run until it's done. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 5 11:24:23 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 10:24:23 -0700 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 05 Dec 2006 01:55:29 -0500. <011901c7183a$5a32d8c0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: In article <011901c7183a$5a32d8c0$0b01a8c0 at game>, "Teo Zenios" writes: > Do you see many older engineering books from the 1930's? I always found > those interesting. Haven't been to a library booksale for ages, they usually > just sell books donated to them don't they or do they sell things from their > shelves? Each library is probably different but at the UofU library, its both. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 5 12:01:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 10:01:00 -0800 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4575435C.6525.2843CDAB@cclist.sydex.com> Every year, our local library has a fundraiser ( "Friends of the Library Sale") at the fundraiser. They sell not library stock, but donated books by the truckload. I've picked up many an old software manual or text that way. They also have a "software" section, but I've never been too interested in that. The selection of LP's on the other hand, has been great. Cheers, Chuck From JEphraim at ci.southlake.tx.us Tue Dec 5 12:35:04 2006 From: JEphraim at ci.southlake.tx.us (Jesse Ephraim) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 12:35:04 -0600 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612050640.kB56eNIE013158@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? (I'm a librarian in a public library) There are generally three things you can do to maximize your chances of getting some interesting classic computer books from libraries: 1) Let the librarian who is responsible for sorting donations know that you are interested in older computer/technical books. In many cases (s)he will pull them for you and let you buy them before the big sale, especially if the library has an ongoing sale shelf that runs year-round. Many libraries automatically recycle out-of-date computer books, since they don't sell that well. If that is the case, they may be willing to give them to you for free. 2) Get to the big sale early - before it technically opens, if you can. Book dealers swarm these sales, and are often the first in line when the door opens. Many of them carry cellphone/barcode scanner combination devices that give them up-to-the-minute eBay prices on books, so they will often grab handfuls of anything that is old (regardless of type or genre), stack them on the floor, and then sit down to see what they are worth. 3) Go to sales in libraries that are in sections of the city where a lot of technical folks live. Wealthy suburbs (where older tech folks might retire), areas near high-tech companies, and areas surrounding universities are good spots. A couple of libraries in my area are located near Sabre, Nokia, and a few other companies that tend to hire a lot of techies. As a result, these libraries tend to get higher numbers of donations of older tech stuff than you would find in other libraries. Remember that weeded books generally only account for a fraction of a library book sale - most of the books come from donations. - Jesse From kth at srv.net Tue Dec 5 13:11:34 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 12:11:34 -0700 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4575C466.6000204@srv.net> Tony Duell wrote: >True. That's why I said 'in the same sense'. It's quite possible for >hardware to have worked perfectly for 20 years, and then to stop working >(and not work agian until it's repaired) because some component has >failed. I think it's very unlikely for software to work fine for 20 >years, then crash and not run again because of some latent design bug >(unless said software makes use of the real time/date, of course ;-)) > > I have a machine that ran Linux for years, but suddenly started to hang at random times for no known reason. Windows 98 ran fine, only Linux had a problem. I replaced the hard drive, installed a new version of Linux, and things improved for a month. Then it started hanging during boot. Windows 98 still ran fine. I am now replacing several capaciters on the motherboard, with obvious buldges on the top, and Linux again runs fine. I still have 4 more caps to go, but need to find ones with the correct form factor (tight fit). Pulled those I used off another motherboard that had lightning damage. I don't know why Windows would run, but Linux would not, except that Linux makes more use of the motherboard features than windows would. I have had experience with one software bug that went unoticed for years. Then one programmer noticed the bug. Almost immediately, the software failed because of this evry bug on numerous systems, where it had run for years. Eerie. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Dec 5 13:30:26 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 11:30:26 -0800 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> Brian Knittel wrote: > A complete IBM 1130 system just surfaced for sale in the midwestern > US. It is reputed to be one of the very first ones sold. It was used > by an architecture/engineering firm until a few years ago. It's an > impressive system: includes the CPU, external disk drives, 1403 > printer, multiplex cabinet (interface for the disks and printer), > 1442 card/read punch, 029 keypunch, documents and other stuff. We're > working getting more details. Buyer will have to arrange for pickup, > which will be a bit of a job as the machine is in a basement, and the > pieces weigh around 800 lbs each. (The multiplex box could weigh over > 1000 lbs). We suspect that a stair crawler might be required. > > We (we being Norm and Brian at ibm1130.org) don't know what the > seller expects to get for it. He's under pressure to get it sold and > moved within two weeks. This is a terrific system, but the pool of > interested people is fairly small, and the moving costs are going to > be considerable. (We would guess that the stair crawler alone will > cost $1500 or more to rent for the day, and trucking will cost > another $500 to 3500 depending on where in the US it goes -- overseas > would be much more). He's aware of this, and we hope that he's > realistic about it. We have an idea of what "realistic" might be and > could suggest what you might want to offer, if you want the advice. ebay 200053482851 IBM 1130,1133,1403,1442,1627,2311,29 ORIGINAL SYSTEM Ok, so it was neck and neck between 'luckyjavalina' (?) and 'shiresoft' (Guy Sotomayor) until 'doctor_death' (?) came in at the end and snagged it for $9200. Anybody know who 'doctor_death' happens to be? Pseudonym for 'dkdkk' maybe :-) ? Is this system going to end up in a museum, another basement, or going to be parted out on ebay? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Dec 5 14:08:00 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 20:08:00 +0000 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: > On Mon, 2006-12-04 at 15:20 -0500, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >> OK... so I'm now the new (proud :-) ) owner of a PDP-11/83. Congrats! I've been battling with a reluctant 11/73 today in the workshop, on work's time :) We have some RD53s to test for a customer..... >> There doesn't seem to be a reason to the layout of the grant continuity >> cards. >> Shouldn't there be one in the left side of the 3rd slot from the top in >> the 183QA-D2 >> (system unit) ? No, the first 3 slots of the Q22 bus carry the grant continuity on the CD portion so a dual-height card in the AB side of slot 3 is fine. >> Any pointers on how the RQDX3 and RQDXE cards should wire up ? The >> RQDXE in the system unit has a wide ribbon cable running to the front >> (which I presume breaks into the control/data wiring for an MFM drive >> there).. but the RQDX3 doesn't connect to the RQDXE .. I've just done this today - the RQDXE goes in the last AB slot with the BA23 drive bay cable going to the back-most connector, the external port (multi-coloured cable) goes in the middle connector and the cable to the RQDX3 goes to the front-most connector, ie nearest the backplane fingers. There are jumpers to select too, and the manual for those is available on MANX and Bitsavers.....many thanks to the folks involved there. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 5 14:12:51 2006 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 12:12:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612050320.kB53KAJS009881@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061205201251.94896.qmail@web50502.mail.yahoo.com> > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? Out of appreciation for their valuable and FREE inter-library loan service to me in my many requests for rare books on many esoteric topics (including a Konrad Zuse book about his Z3 relay computer of which there were only 8 copies nationwide), I volunteered a year of my service to the used book sales effort within my big city library system. Since most cities of any size now have computerized systems which quickly identify books that haven't been checked out for long periods, the odds of finding a older computer book from _within_ a library system are becoming increasingly lower. However, books donated to the library system by individuals can be a different case. I found no valuable computer-related books among the many TONS of books donated to my local library system (I was their computer book evaluation specialist - most books went straight to the paper recycling dumpster). However, I have no idea of how many old and valuable computer books may have been tossed into a dumpster _before_ they got to me due to branch library efforts to thin the donated book numbers before shipping them to our central facility. Many rare books of other types are received and other topic specialists often recognized those. However, I caught a rare one that nearly got away for the standard $2 large-format hardbound book price! While were were stocking the warehouse for one of our very large book sales, I was given a box of books donated by someone who was obviously into the Olympics since youth and was told to simply place them with all of the other large format books. Within that group of books was a MINT condition two-volume, large format German photo album set published in 1936 entitled "DIE OLYMPISCHEN SPIELE 1936." It was about the 1936 (Nazi) Summer Olympics and was sent from a German uncle to his nephew Hans in the US (per inscription). This book had already been through numerous bookworm hands before I finally caught its value. Moral of the story: go to your library book sales!!! You help your library system financially and may be helping yourself to a rare book or two in the process. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 5 14:37:30 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 14:37:30 -0600 Subject: UAE users? Message-ID: <4575D88A.4090505@yahoo.co.uk> OK, back in the UK and I just installed UAE onto the laptop... Could some kind soul throw an A500 Kickstart ROM image this way to save me digging one of my A500 machines out [1] and transferring the image myself? I'll have to unearth one of the machines and mess around with transfer software / cables at some point, I know, but I'd quite like to try the emulator out first and see how good it is with some of the disk image files downloaded from the 'net... [1] Subject to copyright restrictions. I own a couple of A500s, so I can legally transfer them to a PC myself for the purposes of emulation. However, is it legal to ask someone else to send me a ROM image from *their* legal hardware? After all, that's not *my* ROM, even though the end result is indistinguishable... cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taking a bath From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 5 14:43:48 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 14:43:48 -0600 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <001801c718ae$14869950$6500a8c0@BILLING> Don wrote... > Ok, so it was neck and neck between 'luckyjavalina' (?) and 'shiresoft' > (Guy Sotomayor) until 'doctor_death' (?) came in at the end and snagged > it for $9200. Anybody know who 'doctor_death' happens to be? Pseudonym > for 'dkdkk' maybe :-) ? Didn't 'doctor_death' only have a feedback rating of 11? For a $10K item, if I was the seller, I'd be a bit concerned about that. Jay From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 5 14:44:40 2006 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 12:44:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: library book sales Message-ID: <588245.22680.qm@web50513.mail.yahoo.com> > I found no valuable computer-related books among the many TONS of books donated to my local > library system (I was their computer book evaluation specialist - most books went straight to the > paper recycling dumpster). I need to qualify my comment above from my previous post. A "rare" computer book to me means one from the very early mainframe or minicomputer eras. I did see all kinds of donated early microcomputer books and software, but nothing from my favorite mainframe/minicomputer topic area. I served with the library before joining this list and saw many items that would probably have been of interest to members of this list. So, like I said, go to your library system's used book sales! AND, while there, tell them about the market for really old microcomputer and other computer books. They might not have the benefit of a volunteer computer geek on their staff to let them know what to keep and what to toss. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From cctech at porky.vax-11.org Tue Dec 5 10:43:46 2006 From: cctech at porky.vax-11.org (cctech at porky.vax-11.org) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 09:43:46 -0700 (MST) Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: So how big was the spike after you posted the web address? On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 9000 VAX wrote: > Or you can take a look of my project (http://www.mscpscsi.com). > > vax, 9000 > From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Dec 5 12:44:42 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 18:44:42 +0000 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? In-Reply-To: <45757347.1070303@yahoo.co.uk> References: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <457533E3.2070802@gjcp.net> <45757347.1070303@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4575BE1A.6020709@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> My hosts here in Christchurch have a ZX Spectrum... any pointers to >> some interesting Xmas-related demos I could aquire via the 'net? >> (thinking along the lines of the classic C-64 Xmas in-store-windows >> program from Xmas '82). > > Hmm, not quite a demo, but the guy who wrote the Monty Mole series of > games did a one-off Christmas game called, I think, 'Moley Christmas' > for the cover of one of the popular Spectrum mags of the time (either > Crash or Your Sinclair). > > If you're into platform games then tracking that down might be an idea... > > (I've almost certainly still got it on tape *somewhere* so could look > into finding it and converting it to mp3 or whatever if needed) > > cheers > > Jules > You can grab .tzx and .tap files off the 'net, and I've seen a utility to convert them into .wav files that you play into the Speccy... You might also want this: http://www.8bitpeoples.com/discography_gfx.php?artist=The%208bitpeoples#8BP038 Gordon. From kossow at computerhistory.org Tue Dec 5 13:54:17 2006 From: kossow at computerhistory.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 11:54:17 -0800 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest Message-ID: > Anybody know who 'doctor_death' happens to be? Pseudonym > for 'dkdkk' maybe :-) ? He is a 56 year old anesthesiologist in Salt Lake City. Delightful.. Always a joy to hear of another deep-pockets collector appearing. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 5 15:49:18 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 14:49:18 -0700 Subject: Looking for Don Y Message-ID: Hey, I just tried to email Don Y. regarding NCD X terminals and his address is bouncing. Don, if you're out there, can you email me? Thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 5 15:51:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 14:51:15 -0700 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 05 Dec 2006 11:54:17 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Al Kossow writes: > > Anybody know who 'doctor_death' happens to be? Pseudonym > > for 'dkdkk' maybe :-) ? > > He is a 56 year old anesthesiologist in Salt Lake City. Hey cool, I'm in SLC -- maybe I'll get to see this puppy when its delivered?!? Al -- can you pass on my email address and let him know I'd like to meet him? Its always nice to know about another collector in Salt Lake. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 5 16:01:40 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 16:01:40 -0600 Subject: UAE users? In-Reply-To: <4575D88A.4090505@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4575D88A.4090505@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4575EC44.7050109@yahoo.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > > OK, back in the UK and I just installed UAE onto the laptop... > > Could some kind soul throw an A500 Kickstart ROM image this way to save > me digging one of my A500 machines out [1] and transferring the image > myself? Now all sorted out I think :) Many thanks, Jules From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Dec 5 16:40:12 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 14:40:12 -0800 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4575F54C.9000708@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: > > >Al -- can you pass on my email address and let him know I'd like to >meet him? Its always nice to know about another collector in Salt >Lake. > > He has pretty drastic problems with the logistics of this unit. He'll need a lot of money or skill to get to this and rescue it. The main reason it went up was because it was in a bad spot for the collector there in Kansas. And the owner of the property will bail it and junk it in 8 days (from now) because he has a building to turn over. I hope that it doesn't get screwed up, because there may be no chance to do a second chance for the runners up to get it out in time. right now it is a real find, but after some amateur trys to pull it and fails, it will be sad. jim From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Dec 5 17:35:16 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 18:35:16 -0500 Subject: New paper tape Images posted Message-ID: <200612052240.kB5MeWMQ008603@hosting.monisys.ca> Hi Gang, I've just posted several more Paper Tape images to my site. the new additions include: Cromemco Z80 Monitor Quite a bit of Cromemco Dazzler software TDL ZAP(ple) monitor, 8k-Basic, M-80 Macro assebler, text processing etc. I've also added a new "Paper Tape Viewer" to my Paper Tape Tools package, which lets you see what the paper tape contained in the images looked like - this is nice with the TDL tapes which have readable headers punched at the beginning of the images. Here's the description I included in the package: To further assist in verifying tape images, I have included a "Paper Tape Viewer" (PTV) utility, which allows you to see a visual representation of the paper tape image which you can compare to the physical tape. PTR can also show two images visually, allowing you to line them up for comparison, and placing indicators at points where they differ. Now I'm thinking about adding a "Paper Tape Emulator" to the package, which would "read" the images into your real system over a parallel or serial interface... ie: make a PC emulate a physical tape reader. I know how my OAE and H9 readers interface, however I don't know the details of other readers - I'm thinking I should make it somewhat programable and flexible enough that the user can configure the handshaking to just about anything reasonable, but I'd like to know more about the interfaces to actual readers - if anyone can send such details, please do. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 5 15:04:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 21:04:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612050041.kB50f0He018817@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 4, 6 04:40:59 pm Message-ID: > > > for the Motorola 88K, and so on. I will admit to ignoring content-free > > Mac and Windows books, though. > > > > Alas 'good' books have bevome much less common at library sales recently. > > Perhaps I've already bought them all... > > > > -tony > > No, the lack of "good" books is because they are all now those "content-free > Mac, Windows, and *UNIX* books" with very few exceptions. Thanks to the What I emant was that perhaps the reason the libary only has content-free books to sell is that I've bought up all the content-full ones they had. > popularity of Linux you really need to add Unix to the "content-free" > catagory. Though most O'Reilly books are still worth picking up, recently I would agree. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 5 15:06:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 21:06:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 4, 6 04:46:06 pm Message-ID: > > > D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? > > What percentage of the list just turned green with envy? A little :-) Knuth's 'The Art of Computer Programming' is, IMHO, well worth reading (and I say that even though I am not a programmer). Yes, I have the first version of it, the 3 volumes that were published. And I've even read most of them. I still think finding what appears to be a first edition of 'Automatic Digital Computers' for 30p beats it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 5 15:08:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 21:08:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: <4574C9F0.2020202@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Dec 4, 6 08:22:56 pm Message-ID: > So software can also fail in ways that are similar to hardware > problems - EXCEPT that software will NEVER develop an entirely > new bug called a failure due to age problems whereas hardware > will always eventually reach this stage if used long enough. > If this latter characteristic is what you refer to as the prime > difference between hardware and software, then I agree 100%!!! That's exactly what I mean. Software problems are essentially design errors, hardware problems can be design errors or because some component has failed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 5 15:11:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 21:11:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 4, 6 10:08:00 pm Message-ID: > Huh? Who was it that, a hundred or so years ago, asked the gov't > to shut down the patent office because, surely, everything had > already been invented? I beleive it was a certain Charles Duell, and AFAIK he's no close relation of mine. -tony From rollerton at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 19:10:11 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 19:10:11 -0600 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <001801c718ae$14869950$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> <001801c718ae$14869950$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <2789adda0612051710s61798043l7500d6db9ac5ea32@mail.gmail.com> The Luckyjavalina is, uh. me. I am pretty much into saving stuff for history, looking at the art of mechanical things, enjoyment and later musuems. www.javalina.com bob. On 12/5/06, Jay West wrote: > > Don wrote... > > Ok, so it was neck and neck between 'luckyjavalina' (?) and 'shiresoft' > > (Guy Sotomayor) until 'doctor_death' (?) came in at the end and snagged > > it for $9200. Anybody know who 'doctor_death' happens to be? Pseudonym > > for 'dkdkk' maybe :-) ? > > Didn't 'doctor_death' only have a feedback rating of 11? For a $10K item, > if > I was the seller, I'd be a bit concerned about that. > > Jay > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 5 19:44:38 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 17:44:38 -0800 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <34F0D00D-9A45-4736-BB62-F59A53D16027@neurotica.com> References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> <34F0D00D-9A45-4736-BB62-F59A53D16027@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 12:17 PM -0500 12/5/06, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Dec 5, 2006, at 12:10 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>Agreed as well. I have nothing against RSTS/E, but having worked with >>all three OSes, I'd suggest learning something about RT-11 before >>tackling RSTS, and even then, seeing if RSX11M or M+ had something to >>offer before tackling RSTS. It has its place, but that place tended >>to be larger systems intended for multiple simultaneous users. The >>OP's CPU has plenty of horsepower to go around, but RSTS is complex >>enough that it might take a lot of work to get a system to the point >>where it's something fun to play on rather than a seemingly-perpetual >>exercise in software archaeology. I've done both RSTS and RSX >>sysgens... the RSX ones seemed to be more straightforward and resulted >>in a running system with less user intervention. > > Interesting...My RSTS vs. RSX experience has been exactly the >opposite. For me, on my old 11/34a eons ago, an RSX sysgen (v4.1) >took many hours of painstaking work, whereas a RSTS sysgen (v9.4) >took five minutes of interactive work and then let the command >procedure run until it's done. The reason I recommended leaving RSTS/E to last is that installing it and DECnet/E can be tricky to say the least. Of the 3 (4 if you count M+ separately), it seems to be the most picky about how it is installed. I've installed RT-11, RSX-11M, and M+ all from CD-R, but have yet to figure out how to do that with RSTS/E. Trust me, DECnet/E doesn't like it if you try to install off of a 4mm DAT tape. It took me a long time to figure out that was half my problem (the other half was a marginal Network switch). Basically RSTS/E is the only reason my PDP-11/73 still has a TZ30 (TK50) drive. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 5 19:45:31 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 17:45:31 -0800 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:08 PM +0000 12/5/06, Adrian Graham wrote: > We have some RD53s to test for a customer..... You have my sympathy. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Dec 5 19:46:42 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 20:46:42 -0500 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061206014642.E9F26BA421A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Richard wrote: > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? Very excellent luck. My best finds are engineering books like the McGraw-Hill engineering series, often from the 30's/40's/50's. Tim. From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 20:01:48 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 21:01:48 -0500 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 12/5/06, cctech at porky.vax-11.org wrote: > > > So how big was the spike after you posted the web address? I don't know. It is kindly hosted by Brian H (on the list too). vax, 9000 On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 9000 VAX wrote: > > > Or you can take a look of my project (http://www.mscpscsi.com). > > > > vax, 9000 > > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Dec 5 21:18:49 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 22:18:49 -0500 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <200612052218.49804.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 05 December 2006 11:45, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 1:27 AM +1300 12/6/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >Viking and CMD controllers were also common, IIRC. > > It has been my experience that the Viking controllers were *very* > common and rebadged by at least a couple companies. All of my main > PDP-11's are using Viking QDT & UDT controllers. So, do you have any info on making them work? I've got a pair of them, which I got out of 3rd party (embedded) 11/23 systems, but I haven't had any luck getting them to talk to drives. The system can talk to the controller (I stuck it into a QBUS VAX and could do a "show uqssp" to it), but it didn't seem to see any drives, and the activity lights on the drives didn't ever blink (though the LED on the card did blink when it should have been talking to the SCSI bus). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Dec 5 22:45:42 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 05:45:42 +0100 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45764AF6.2000706@bluewin.ch> Tony Duell wrote: >> I want to convert a ASR33 from 110V/50Hz ( yes , 50Hz) to 220V. >> >> Is it sufficient to swap the motor and fuses ? > > I have never seen a 230V motor for an ASR33. All the ASR33s I've seen in > the UK have 115V motors (and the same rating of fuse that you'd expect > for a 115V machine). > My first ASR33 is a "native" 220V machine (i.e. without transformer), and since the spare motor I have came with that first machine, I assumed it would also be 220V. But i checked again after Tony's message and my spare motor turns out to be a 115V/ 50Hz item... So autotransformer it will be. And I can add the 8/L to it instead of the 8/E. jos From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 5 22:52:55 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 20:52:55 -0800 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <200612052218.49804.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <200612052218.49804.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: At 10:18 PM -0500 12/5/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >On Tuesday 05 December 2006 11:45, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> At 1:27 AM +1300 12/6/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >Viking and CMD controllers were also common, IIRC. >> >> It has been my experience that the Viking controllers were *very* >> common and rebadged by at least a couple companies. All of my main >> PDP-11's are using Viking QDT & UDT controllers. > >So, do you have any info on making them work? I've got a pair of them, >which I got out of 3rd party (embedded) 11/23 systems, but I haven't had >any luck getting them to talk to drives. The system can talk to the >controller (I stuck it into a QBUS VAX and could do a "show uqssp" to >it), but it didn't seem to see any drives, and the activity lights on >the drives didn't ever blink (though the LED on the card did blink when >it should have been talking to the SCSI bus). Take a look on ftp://ftp.avanthar.com/dan/viking_scsi and you will find the documentation. Warning, it really helps to have a bulkhead panel that allows you to plug in a serial terminal. The boards can be configured as Disk, Tape, Disk & Tape, or Disk & PDP-11 boot depending on the PAL's installed. You need fairly new firmware for them to work with a CD-ROM drive. They're pretty picky about what CD-ROM drives they'll work with, but I've had good luck with Plextor Caddy drives. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 5 22:56:33 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 22:56:33 -0600 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <200612052218.49804.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <200612052218.49804.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <45764D81.8040802@mdrconsult.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday 05 December 2006 11:45, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>At 1:27 AM +1300 12/6/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>>Viking and CMD controllers were also common, IIRC. >> >>It has been my experience that the Viking controllers were *very* >>common and rebadged by at least a couple companies. All of my main >>PDP-11's are using Viking QDT & UDT controllers. > > > So, do you have any info on making them work? I've got a pair of them, > which I got out of 3rd party (embedded) 11/23 systems, but I haven't had > any luck getting them to talk to drives. The system can talk to the > controller (I stuck it into a QBUS VAX and could do a "show uqssp" to > it), but it didn't seem to see any drives, and the activity lights on > the drives didn't ever blink (though the LED on the card did blink when > it should have been talking to the SCSI bus). They're probably toast. You should ship them to me for diagnostics and proper disposal. Doc From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Dec 5 16:50:50 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 22:50:50 +0000 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <4575F54C.9000708@msm.umr.edu> References: <4575F54C.9000708@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4575F7CA.20103@gjcp.net> jim stephens wrote: > right now it is a real find, but after some amateur trys to pull it and > fails, it will be > sad. Well, now's the time to get in touch with the buyer and offer to help... Gordon From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Dec 6 01:47:38 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 23:47:38 -0800 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <4575F7CA.20103@gjcp.net> References: <4575F54C.9000708@msm.umr.edu> <4575F7CA.20103@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4576759A.90501@msm.umr.edu> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > jim stephens wrote: > >> right now it is a real find, but after some amateur trys to pull it >> and fails, it will be >> sad. > > Well, now's the time to get in touch with the buyer and offer to help... > > Gordon I'm up to my eyeballs in trying to save my own pile while moving out of expensive storage to offer much, and it is too remote from me and too short of a time frame for anyone to do much. I just hope he can get it out. He has problems I have no solutions or means to help with, or I'd offer it. Jim From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Dec 6 02:04:04 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 00:04:04 -0800 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <45767974.8000706@shiresoft.com> Don North wrote: > Brian Knittel wrote: >> A complete IBM 1130 system just surfaced for sale in the midwestern >> US. It is reputed to be one of the very first ones sold. It was used >> by an architecture/engineering firm until a few years ago. It's an >> impressive system: includes the CPU, external disk drives, 1403 >> printer, multiplex cabinet (interface for the disks and printer), >> 1442 card/read punch, 029 keypunch, documents and other stuff. We're >> working getting more details. Buyer will have to arrange for pickup, >> which will be a bit of a job as the machine is in a basement, and the >> pieces weigh around 800 lbs each. (The multiplex box could weigh over >> 1000 lbs). We suspect that a stair crawler might be required. >> >> We (we being Norm and Brian at ibm1130.org) don't know what the >> seller expects to get for it. He's under pressure to get it sold and >> moved within two weeks. This is a terrific system, but the pool of >> interested people is fairly small, and the moving costs are going to >> be considerable. (We would guess that the stair crawler alone will >> cost $1500 or more to rent for the day, and trucking will cost >> another $500 to 3500 depending on where in the US it goes -- overseas >> would be much more). He's aware of this, and we hope that he's >> realistic about it. We have an idea of what "realistic" might be and >> could suggest what you might want to offer, if you want the advice. > > ebay 200053482851 IBM 1130,1133,1403,1442,1627,2311,29 ORIGINAL SYSTEM > > Ok, so it was neck and neck between 'luckyjavalina' (?) and 'shiresoft' > (Guy Sotomayor) until 'doctor_death' (?) came in at the end and snagged > it for $9200. Anybody know who 'doctor_death' happens to be? Pseudonym > for 'dkdkk' maybe :-) ? > > Is this system going to end up in a museum, another basement, or going > to be parted out on ebay? > I was (obviously) hoping to get it since an 1130 was the first computer that I programmed professionally (in 1971). Because docs and software for it are somewhat scarce, as part of the acquisition I wanted to lend out the docs and media to make them available to the community at large (which is what I try to do with the other docs and media I acquire). Unfortunately, it looks like this will just fall into a "black hole". :-( -- TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Dec 6 02:18:17 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 00:18:17 -0800 Subject: RK05 disk images & PDP-11/70 Message-ID: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> Hi, I just wanted to let folks know that I've gotten my 11/70 setup with BSD2.11. It now has 2 Fujitsu Eagles attached to an Emulex SC72. BSD "thinks" there are 4 RP06 drives attached! Now that I have enough disk storage on it, I'm going to start to image the 200+ (yes, that's *not* a typo) RK05 packs. It'll take a seriously long time to go through all of the packs since before I will put a "strange" pack into the RK05 drive on the '70 (actually *any* of my RK05 drives), I disassemble the pack and completely clean the enclosure and the platter. Since there's a fair amount of DEC distribution media among the packs, I'll be doing the "high" value packs first. I'll let folks know how it goes and try to put together a catalog of what's there. I've configured this 11/70 (actually a DS570) to be able to read/write RL01/2 packs and RK05 packs. It also has a TU80 so I can also read/write 1600bpi 9-track tapes. It also has a DELUA ethernet. BSD is configured for TCP/IP and I've set it up to use one of my static IPs. DNS is pointing to it as neptune.shiresoft.com. This will allow me to move bits on/off the '70 with relative ease. I'm also contemplating letting it run 24/7 (I may reconsider once I see my electric bill) and offering access to individuals. What do y'all think? -- TTFN - Guy From wizard at voyager.net Wed Dec 6 02:17:44 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 03:17:44 -0500 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2006-12-05 at 21:06 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > Knuth's 'The Art of Computer Programming' is, IMHO, well > worth reading (and I say that even though I am not a programmer). Yes, I > have the first version of it, the 3 volumes that were published. And I've > even read most of them. > > I still think finding what appears to be a first edition of 'Automatic > Digital Computers' for 30p beats it... A first edition? Without a doubt. At 30 quid it beats it -- beats it like it owed it money. Even ignoring the topic, it's an incredibly rare book. A most excellent score, Tony! Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Wed Dec 6 04:22:54 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 05:22:54 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> Hello, Fellow Cyber-Archaeologists, I have an idea... (everybody duck) One of the more common problems in the field of classic computers is that of loading operating systems, programs, and data onto an old machine. Could we not come up with a standard means of information interchange? I would suggest the USB memory sticks one sees everywhere now. I just bought a few of them at about four dollars each -- and each one stores a gigabyte of information. I was thinking... could we not develop, say, an S-100, an S-50, an Apple II circuit board that accepts these sticks? An RL02 equivalent controller that reads memory sticks, and pretends they are drives? Information could be stored on any modern machine, loaded onto a memory stick in a jiffy, and used to load up a copy of vital data for any information-starved machine. Each area of specialty would only need one card (or device) developed, along with a set of files and programs necessary (or just mildly useful) for booting up and running the target machine. As a bonus, one Gig of RAM memory would be a powerful drive on many older machines, and would speed the system up immensely. I'm currently spiffing up a couple of CP/M machines, and after all this time, the diskettes spinning up to read a few K at a time is almost physically painful. For me, the joy comes in USING the older machines, rather than the process of fixing them up. YMMV. But, I sure would enjoy having a gigabyte of fast storage available -- it could include a bootable CP/M image, and the entire SIG/M Public Domain library, and still have most of the disk free. Equivalencies could be made for many other machines. Does anyone have an interest in setting up some common scheme for the hardware design, and data storage so that cards and interfaces could use some common circuitry, with a separate hardware equivalent of a BIOS (implementation dependent area) that would be different for different machine applications? Comments, anyone? Has this been done? Would people see it as an abomination or boon? Who would be interested in (and capable of) producing a USB interface card for "their" computers? Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From fryers at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 04:46:54 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:46:54 +0000 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: Hey All, On 06/12/06, Warren Wolfe wrote: > I have an idea... (everybody duck) [Using USB memory sticks as universal drives for old machines] [Interfaces for each class or type of machine] [Software on the stick] > Comments, anyone? Has this been done? Would people see it as an > abomination or boon? Who would be interested in (and capable of) > producing a USB interface card for "their" computers? I was thinking of doing the same sort of thing but using compact flash cards and building some electronics as the interface for the QIC tape interface. Thinking about it is about as far as I got. From what I understand, the electronics and software for interfacing Compact Flash is a little easier than USB. My initial need for something like this, again comes back to the problems with aged QIC tapes. I have quite a few and I don't expect to get more than a read off them. Therefore I am looking for one good read into a ADC, a little signal processing, then a way to emulate the tape drive to get the OS onto the machines in question. For what it is worth, the tapes are DomainOS and assorted utilities. I look at it as, well, I would really like to use the original tapes and drives, but I also want to preserve the information on the tapes for n rereads in the future. I am therefore going to acknowldge that I am not going to undertake the OS load using all original hardware. However I am going to undertake it using as much of the original hardware as I can, substituting new hardware where I think there is a high probability something will go wrong. I can see the strange irony in this project is the micro controller that runs the interface is likely to have more CPU power and memory than the host machine! Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From spedraja at ono.com Wed Dec 6 04:57:21 2006 From: spedraja at ono.com (sp) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:57:21 +0100 Subject: RK05 disk images & PDP-11/70 In-Reply-To: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> References: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4576A211.6060800@ono.com> Hello. Guy Sotomayor escribi?: > I've configured this 11/70 (actually a DS570) to be able to read/write > RL01/2 packs and RK05 packs. It also has a TU80 so I can also > read/write 1600bpi 9-track tapes. > > It also has a DELUA ethernet. BSD is configured for TCP/IP and I've > set it up to use one of my static IPs. DNS is pointing to it as > neptune.shiresoft.com. This will allow me to move bits on/off the '70 > with relative ease. > > I'm also contemplating letting it run 24/7 (I may reconsider once I > see my electric bill) and offering access to individuals. What do > y'all think? Here have a candidate. What you're waiting for ;-) ? Regards Sergio From wizard at voyager.net Wed Dec 6 05:22:01 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 06:22:01 -0500 Subject: RK05 disk images & PDP-11/70 In-Reply-To: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> References: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1165404121.32029.28.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 00:18 -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > It also has a DELUA ethernet. BSD is configured for TCP/IP and I've set > it up to use one of my static IPs. DNS is pointing to it as > neptune.shiresoft.com. This will allow me to move bits on/off the '70 > with relative ease. > > I'm also contemplating letting it run 24/7 (I may reconsider once I see > my electric bill) and offering access to individuals. What do y'all think? If you have a reasonable connection to the 'Net, and leave the machine available for people with accounts to telnet in, you might well get folks willing to help defray the cost of power and bandwidth... I know I'd be interested. As you say, it is open for re-consideration at any time. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed Dec 6 07:37:33 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 14:37:33 +0100 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines In-Reply-To: <4573E3E6.894E0F21@cs.ubc.ca> References: <44440.68406.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <456BD13D.7090802@bluewin.ch> <456BF311.289E8BD2@cs.ubc.ca> <1165107475.30774.254.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4573E3E6.894E0F21@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1165412253.30774.334.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-12-04 at 01:01 -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Tore, thanks for your extensive reply about Norsk Data and the story about the > CERN machines. I like hearing about the other minicomputers/companies - the > 'rest of the world' - in addition to DEC and HP all the time. It's a pleasure. Even here in Norway, too few people know about the company and their machines, which I think is a real shame. AFAICT, all Norwegian universities were heavily DEC, perhaps Oslo most of all (with a DEC-10 or three) - and NORDs were mostly delegated to working as RJE stations and text processing systems. CERN really was the only major research institution to adopt them to the degree they did. ND quickly shifted their focus towards business applications from the original academic market, though the ND-500 was originally designed as a purely scientific CPU! One thing I forgot to mention is that one of the first three NORD-10 machines to be sold to CERN (and thus one of the first three NORD-10 sold), recently surfaced in a *barn* in Gjerdrum, not too far away from Oslo (but still agricultural territory), and we are currently in the process of restoring it. > Yes, indeed(!), they were of the orange generation: even in the dim lighting and > off to one side, the bank of them rather determined the colour scheme for the > room. ('SCREAMING ORANGE' as you said in an earlier message. Orange panels with > aluminum trim, IIRC.) Yes. In fact CERN mounted handles on the panels, which certainly makes the job of removing the panels a lot easier. > They were from the 70's after all: the era of DEC purple, kitchen appliances > in harvest-gold and avocado-green (for North Americans), and too many other > design crimes. (Then again, this blue iMac in front of me may look horribly > kitschy/garrish in another 20 years.) You know, I love it. Anything but mindless good taste. At least they look interesting, and diverse - much like their innards! The fascinating differences between all these machines is a major part of what attracts me to this hobby. Norsk Data machines didn't turn gray until around 1987, and that's when things started going downhill. However, as much as I'd like to claim causality... :) -Tore From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 6 08:05:04 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 08:05:04 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> Simon Fryer wrote: >> Comments, anyone? Has this been done? Would people see it as an >> abomination or boon? Who would be interested in (and capable of) >> producing a USB interface card for "their" computers? > > I was thinking of doing the same sort of thing but using compact flash > cards and building some electronics as the interface for the QIC tape > interface. Hmm, I'd much prefer that to USB; USB is a comms mechanism not a storage system - using CF cards means that a bridge to all sorts of common interfaces is possible (and in the case of things like USB and IDE such bridges exist already). Question: do CF cards support 8 bit transfers though, and are they guaranteed to do so? IDE interfaces have been homebrewed to a lot of vintage machines, but quite often they only support drives that'll do 8 bit data transfers. Remember that the most common gadget found on old machines though is the floppy drive - and that generally-speaking they're *reasonably* standardised at the electrical interface. Typically that's the only device which is bootable, and for which controlling software exists within whatever passes for an OS on the machine, too. Maybe the sensible thing to do is make a gadget which looks like a floppy drive to a vintage system but which holds data on more modern storage (USB stick, CF card etc.) or allows for a comms link to a modern machine. I can't help feeling that requiring the building of a proprietary card for every different system and the writing of drivers for it on that system is a heck of a lot of work! > Thinking about it is about as far as I got. From what I > understand, the electronics and software for interfacing Compact Flash > is a little easier than USB. It's IDE on a smaller pin pitch I think. Certainly there's no smarts to the IDE-CF convertor that I have here - CF socket, power socket, IDE socket, a capacitor, and a jumper for master/slave. That's it. And like SCSI, interfacing to IDE is mainly a software issue - the hardware tends to be a few buffers and little more. cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 09:04:11 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:04:11 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: I don't know how much times a flash memory can be written. It might be OK to make a bootable device from it. My concern is about how to make replacement RL02, RD53 or similar. Flash memory might not be good for this purpose. vax, 9000 From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed Dec 6 09:13:20 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 16:13:20 +0100 Subject: RK05 disk images & PDP-11/70 In-Reply-To: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> References: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1165418000.30774.351.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 00:18 -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Hi, > I'm also contemplating letting it run 24/7 (I may reconsider once I see > my electric bill) and offering access to individuals. What do y'all think? I think I can sum up my personal opinion with "Dang!". :) That's a very nice configuration. I wish you the very best of luck with the recovery of the disk packs. -Tore From vrs at msn.com Wed Dec 6 09:26:08 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 07:26:08 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site><1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site><4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: From: "9000 VAX" >I don't know how much times a flash memory can be written. It might be OK >to > make a bootable device from it. > > My concern is about how to make replacement RL02, RD53 or similar. Flash > memory might not be good for this purpose. It is true that the flash have a finite number of write cycles. (If we believe the manufacturers, the number of writes allowed is improving.) However, even so, I'd think the reliability would compare favorably with the old media. One suggestion was to mimic a floppy disk drive, (to cut down on the number of controllers that have to be implemented), and I'd think that the flash would easily have a similar lifetime to floppy media :-). Part of the point was to be able to copy the data onto newer equipment, which would also largely obviate the problem of finite media lifetime. (If your flash is getting tired, just copy it onto a new one.) Secretly, I believe that USB sticks will be out of fashion (unobtanium) before their reliability for this purpose becomes much of an issue. Meanwhile, CF or USB sticks would be a great transition for getting the information off the existing aging media. I can envision a floppy-to-CF gizmo attached to a CF-to-USB gizmo attached to a USB-to- gizmo, etc. as needed. Vince From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Dec 6 09:47:28 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 16:47:28 +0100 Subject: Most simple interface for modern Storage (Was: Machine Independent Storage Idea) In-Reply-To: <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> References: Message-ID: <4576F420.26259.2D9E538C@localhost> No longer actve following the list I stumbled across this discussion... Am 6 Dec 2006 8:05 meinte Jules Richardson: > > Thinking about it is about as far as I got. From what I > > understand, the electronics and software for interfacing Compact Flash > > is a little easier than USB. > It's IDE on a smaller pin pitch I think. Certainly there's no smarts to the > IDE-CF convertor that I have here - CF socket, power socket, IDE socket, a > capacitor, and a jumper for master/slave. That's it. > And like SCSI, interfacing to IDE is mainly a software issue - the hardware > tends to be a few buffers and little more. As if using CF in memory Mode not even that. Still, you need (beside MS-DOS file system et al) to have enough free interface lines and beeing able to folow a protocoll with multiple control lines. If you realy look for a simple and easy modern readable media to interface for most computers, I would recommend MMC (and compatible SD-Card) media. As most basic interface they support SPI, a 4 wire serial bus that can operate at any speed from zero to 20 MHz with almost no need for additional hardware. A year ago I did even an implementation using the Apple ][ game port. No need to say that the transferrate was rather slow, still on par with floppy speed :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From rollerton at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 10:09:12 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:09:12 -0600 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <45767974.8000706@shiresoft.com> References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> <45767974.8000706@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <2789adda0612060809p4d9b2474pf6f4c1ce199d2fca@mail.gmail.com> Looks like Guy and I share some common interests; including british cars (MGB'79, MGA'57). I wonder if 1130's leak oil? On 12/6/06, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > > Don North wrote: > > Brian Knittel wrote: > >> A complete IBM 1130 system just surfaced for sale in the midwestern > >> US. It is reputed to be one of the very first ones sold. It was used > >> by an architecture/engineering firm until a few years ago. It's an > >> impressive system: includes the CPU, external disk drives, 1403 > >> printer, multiplex cabinet (interface for the disks and printer), > >> 1442 card/read punch, 029 keypunch, documents and other stuff. We're > >> working getting more details. Buyer will have to arrange for pickup, > >> which will be a bit of a job as the machine is in a basement, and the > >> pieces weigh around 800 lbs each. (The multiplex box could weigh over > >> 1000 lbs). We suspect that a stair crawler might be required. > >> > >> We (we being Norm and Brian at ibm1130.org) don't know what the > >> seller expects to get for it. He's under pressure to get it sold and > >> moved within two weeks. This is a terrific system, but the pool of > >> interested people is fairly small, and the moving costs are going to > >> be considerable. (We would guess that the stair crawler alone will > >> cost $1500 or more to rent for the day, and trucking will cost > >> another $500 to 3500 depending on where in the US it goes -- overseas > >> would be much more). He's aware of this, and we hope that he's > >> realistic about it. We have an idea of what "realistic" might be and > >> could suggest what you might want to offer, if you want the advice. > > > > ebay 200053482851 IBM 1130,1133,1403,1442,1627,2311,29 ORIGINAL SYSTEM > > > > Ok, so it was neck and neck between 'luckyjavalina' (?) and 'shiresoft' > > (Guy Sotomayor) until 'doctor_death' (?) came in at the end and snagged > > it for $9200. Anybody know who 'doctor_death' happens to be? Pseudonym > > for 'dkdkk' maybe :-) ? > > > > Is this system going to end up in a museum, another basement, or going > > to be parted out on ebay? > > > I was (obviously) hoping to get it since an 1130 was the first computer > that I programmed professionally (in 1971). Because docs and software > for it are somewhat scarce, as part of the acquisition I wanted to lend > out the docs and media to make them available to the community at large > (which is what I try to do with the other docs and media I acquire). > Unfortunately, it looks like this will just fall into a "black hole". :-( > > -- > > TTFN - Guy > > > From rollerton at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 10:09:12 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:09:12 -0600 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <45767974.8000706@shiresoft.com> References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> <45767974.8000706@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <2789adda0612060809p4d9b2474pf6f4c1ce199d2fca@mail.gmail.com> Looks like Guy and I share some common interests; including british cars (MGB'79, MGA'57). I wonder if 1130's leak oil? On 12/6/06, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > > Don North wrote: > > Brian Knittel wrote: > >> A complete IBM 1130 system just surfaced for sale in the midwestern > >> US. It is reputed to be one of the very first ones sold. It was used > >> by an architecture/engineering firm until a few years ago. It's an > >> impressive system: includes the CPU, external disk drives, 1403 > >> printer, multiplex cabinet (interface for the disks and printer), > >> 1442 card/read punch, 029 keypunch, documents and other stuff. We're > >> working getting more details. Buyer will have to arrange for pickup, > >> which will be a bit of a job as the machine is in a basement, and the > >> pieces weigh around 800 lbs each. (The multiplex box could weigh over > >> 1000 lbs). We suspect that a stair crawler might be required. > >> > >> We (we being Norm and Brian at ibm1130.org) don't know what the > >> seller expects to get for it. He's under pressure to get it sold and > >> moved within two weeks. This is a terrific system, but the pool of > >> interested people is fairly small, and the moving costs are going to > >> be considerable. (We would guess that the stair crawler alone will > >> cost $1500 or more to rent for the day, and trucking will cost > >> another $500 to 3500 depending on where in the US it goes -- overseas > >> would be much more). He's aware of this, and we hope that he's > >> realistic about it. We have an idea of what "realistic" might be and > >> could suggest what you might want to offer, if you want the advice. > > > > ebay 200053482851 IBM 1130,1133,1403,1442,1627,2311,29 ORIGINAL SYSTEM > > > > Ok, so it was neck and neck between 'luckyjavalina' (?) and 'shiresoft' > > (Guy Sotomayor) until 'doctor_death' (?) came in at the end and snagged > > it for $9200. Anybody know who 'doctor_death' happens to be? Pseudonym > > for 'dkdkk' maybe :-) ? > > > > Is this system going to end up in a museum, another basement, or going > > to be parted out on ebay? > > > I was (obviously) hoping to get it since an 1130 was the first computer > that I programmed professionally (in 1971). Because docs and software > for it are somewhat scarce, as part of the acquisition I wanted to lend > out the docs and media to make them available to the community at large > (which is what I try to do with the other docs and media I acquire). > Unfortunately, it looks like this will just fall into a "black hole". :-( > > -- > > TTFN - Guy > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 10:15:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 08:15:16 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: References: , <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site>, Message-ID: <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2006 at 10:46, Simon Fryer wrote: > I was thinking of doing the same sort of thing but using compact flash > cards and building some electronics as the interface for the QIC tape > interface. Thinking about it is about as far as I got. From what I > understand, the electronics and software for interfacing Compact Flash > is a little easier than USB. I've been toying with the idea of using a CF to provide emulation for floppy drives. More complicated, as the thing has to look like a floppy. Rather than record separated data, I'm inclined to record flux transitions on the CF, so a disk would require something on the order of 128KBytes per track (for a 300 RPM 500KHz drive). i.e., the drive would be data-encoding independent. Since one can get 4GB CF cards, this shouldn't be a problem . Managing multiple images from a single CF card will require some careful thought. Simulating multiple drives with a single unit is another possibility. There are still whole segments of the industrial market where floppies represent the only available interface for older equipment. For the interested, here's a RS232/485-to-CF card development board. Note that it's pretty simple, using a PIC for most functions. http://www.futurlec.com/CompBoard_Technical.shtml I've been using the same outfit's USB-to-parallell I/O module and find that it's easy to use (and plugs into a 32-pin DIP socket). Cheers, Chuck From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Dec 6 10:16:33 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:16:33 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: References: <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061206102138.05b83050@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that 9000 VAX may have mentioned these words: >I don't know how much times a flash memory can be written. It might be OK to >make a bootable device from it. Between 10K and 100K times - IIRC, CompactFlash has virtual sector mapping with load-balancing to attempt to reformat the sectors evenly(ish). Dunno about the others... >My concern is about how to make replacement RL02, RD53 or similar. Flash >memory might not be good for this purpose. Depending on how often the machine is used, it may very well last a long time... but if you're still worried: MRAM. The older 5V stuff has writes into the millions, IIRC, and some new 3.3V stuff is listed as "nearly unlimited" - you can interpret that as you wish... ;-) Freescale (read: ustabeen-Moto) didn't list a maximum write life in their datasheet for the 4Mbit part they sell. Not the cheapest, but it's not outside of "affordability" IMHO. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 10:59:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 08:59:06 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061206102138.05b83050@mail.30below.com> References: <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk>, , <5.1.0.14.2.20061206102138.05b83050@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4576865A.23641.2D317CE7@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2006 at 11:16, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Between 10K and 100K times - IIRC, CompactFlash has virtual sector mapping > with load-balancing to attempt to reformat the sectors evenly(ish). Dunno > about the others... Modern stuff is closer to 300K. But even at 100K, emulating a floppy drive gives you about 5.5 hours of continuous rewriting of a single track. CF sector remapping obviously can improve this number. Heck, I can't get nearly that many writes out of a modern 3.5" 1.44MB diskette! :) Given the proliferation of CF, I can readily envision a not-distant future where a technological improvement results in nearly infinite numbers of write cycles. I note that Ramtron is now saying that its FRAM enjoys that distinction. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 6 11:21:14 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:21:14 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site>, <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4576FC0A.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Dec 2006 at 10:46, Simon Fryer wrote: > I've been toying with the idea of using a CF to provide emulation for > floppy drives. More complicated, as the thing has to look like a > floppy. Rather than record separated data, I'm inclined to record > flux transitions on the CF, so a disk would require something on the > order of 128KBytes per track (for a 300 RPM 500KHz drive). i.e., > the drive would be data-encoding independent. Since one can get 4GB > CF cards, this shouldn't be a problem . Yep, gut-feeling is that it'd be useful (see other post, assuming it made it - been having some email troubles today). I was a bit concerned about the write speed of CF (remember the discussion about a 'universal floppy disk reader' gadget a short while ago), but I think it works out as being fast enough for recording flux transitions at suitable oversampling. I suppose you need a fair bit of on-board CPU power to process the data (given that it has to do serial-parallel conversion between drive interface and card). > Managing multiple images > from a single CF card will require some careful thought. Darn interesting idea, though :) That implies some intelligence controlling the gadget 'remotely' though, or at the mickey-mouse end of the scale, a rotary switch on top of the device to say which image to select. Perhaps a version 2 thing? > Simulating multiple drives with a single unit is another possibility. Hmm, that 'feels' messy, somehow. Not sure why - but I think I'd prefer one gadget per drive... cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Dec 6 11:36:02 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:36:02 -0800 Subject: RK05 disk images & PDP-11/70 In-Reply-To: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> References: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20061206173602.GA32393@motherbrain.retronet.net> On Wed, Dec 06, 2006 at 12:18:17AM -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Hi, > > I just wanted to let folks know that I've gotten my 11/70 setup with > BSD2.11. It now has 2 Fujitsu Eagles attached to an Emulex SC72. BSD > "thinks" there are 4 RP06 drives attached! > > Now that I have enough disk storage on it, I'm going to start to image > the 200+ (yes, that's *not* a typo) RK05 packs. It'll take a seriously > long time to go through all of the packs since before I will put a > "strange" pack into the RK05 drive on the '70 (actually *any* of my RK05 > drives), I disassemble the pack and completely clean the enclosure and > the platter. Since there's a fair amount of DEC distribution media > among the packs, I'll be doing the "high" value packs first. I'll let > folks know how it goes and try to put together a catalog of what's there. Very exciting! I'm on pins and needles waiting to see what you're going to be imaging. BTW, I live in Santa Clara, let me know if you'd like any help with the grunt-work of cataloging. I'm happy to help with any software archiving efforts. > I'm also contemplating letting it run 24/7 (I may reconsider once I see > my electric bill) and offering access to individuals. What do y'all think? Move to Santa Clara! ;) Our power bill is about 1/3rd what it was when we lived in San Jose and had PG&E. Barring that, yes, I'm sure many of us on the list would be happy to help defray the cost if you'd like. -Seth, a fellow DEC enthusiast From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed Dec 6 11:35:59 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 18:35:59 +0100 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <2789adda0612060809p4d9b2474pf6f4c1ce199d2fca@mail.gmail.com> References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> <45767974.8000706@shiresoft.com> <2789adda0612060809p4d9b2474pf6f4c1ce199d2fca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1165426559.30774.356.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 10:09 -0600, Robert Ollerton wrote: > Looks like Guy and I share some common interests; including british cars > (MGB'79, MGA'57). I wonder if 1130's leak oil? Nah, you're thinking of the 7090. :) -Tore From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 11:38:30 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 09:38:30 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <4576FC0A.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com>, <4576FC0A.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45768F96.15253.2D558F51@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2006 at 11:21, Jules Richardson wrote: > Darn interesting idea, though :) That implies some intelligence controlling > the gadget 'remotely' though, or at the mickey-mouse end of the scale, a > rotary switch on top of the device to say which image to select. Perhaps a > version 2 thing? Ideally, a couple of pushbuttons and a small LCD display, I'd think. Floppy changing is a manual effort in the real world; no reason to do it differently in the simulated world. > Hmm, that 'feels' messy, somehow. Not sure why - but I think I'd prefer one > gadget per drive... Yeah, it occurred to me that you'd get into the situation of "My A: drive is on one CF card, but my B: drive is on another. What do I do?" (2 CF slots, maybe?) Per-track access time from the CF shouldn't be much of an issue. One can always delay the index pulse until the data is ready (recall that at 300 RPM, an index pulse occurs every 200 msec.). Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Dec 6 10:37:55 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:37:55 -0500 Subject: RK05 disk images & PDP-11/70 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 06 Dec 2006 00:18:17 PST." <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <200612061637.kB6Gbt2p023732@mwave.heeltoe.com> Guy Sotomayor wrote: ... >long time to go through all of the packs since before I will put a >"strange" pack into the RK05 drive on the '70 (actually *any* of my RK05 >drives), I disassemble the pack and completely clean the enclosure and >the platter. Could you (at some point) describe how you do that? I've got several rk05 drives I'm bringing back to life and some older packs which could use cleaning. I didn't realize you could open up the pack - sounds like a good idea in some cases. cool about the 11/70 too - very nice. I've got a similar setup with my 11/44 but no rk05's (yet) thanks, -brad From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 6 12:11:19 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:11:19 -0700 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <1165426559.30774.356.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> <45767974.8000706@shiresoft.com> <2789adda0612060809p4d9b2474pf6f4c1ce199d2fca@mail.gmail.com> <1165426559.30774.356.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <457707C7.5050600@jetnet.ab.ca> Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 10:09 -0600, Robert Ollerton wrote: > >>Looks like Guy and I share some common interests; including british cars >>(MGB'79, MGA'57). I wonder if 1130's leak oil? > > > Nah, you're thinking of the 7090. :) > > -Tore All I know is to TIE down your DRIVES -- they have been known to walk out the door. :) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 6 12:35:48 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 12:35:48 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45768F96.15253.2D558F51@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com>, <4576FC0A.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> <45768F96.15253.2D558F51@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45770D84.9090902@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Dec 2006 at 11:21, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Darn interesting idea, though :) That implies some intelligence controlling >> the gadget 'remotely' though, or at the mickey-mouse end of the scale, a >> rotary switch on top of the device to say which image to select. Perhaps a >> version 2 thing? > > Ideally, a couple of pushbuttons and a small LCD display, I'd think. > Floppy changing is a manual effort in the real world; no reason to do > it differently in the simulated world. True. A link to a modern machine might be nice for transfer, though (to save on swapping cards around). But I remember the lengthy discussions about what the 'best' interface is in the past :-) I was thinking that some sort of switch is a bit clunky - but with your addition of the LCD the device would be able to display more information about which file was selected (rather than having to rely on the user knowing that the thing in 'slot' #0 was disk xyz etc.) >> Hmm, that 'feels' messy, somehow. Not sure why - but I think I'd prefer one >> gadget per drive... > > Yeah, it occurred to me that you'd get into the situation of "My A: > drive is on one CF card, but my B: drive is on another. What do I > do?" (2 CF slots, maybe?) It just feels like it might get complex at that point - and costly. I suppose you can put a header (or even just pads for one) on the main board for a cable going to a second card, but not worry about the expense of adding a second slot right now; sort of make it an optional extra. If CF is just IDE then it should presumably be dead easy to support one or two cards on the same bus anyway without additional logic. Same deal on the floppy interface side - make it possible to hook it up as two drives if someone wants to buy the extra cabling and relevant interface logic, but don't actually provide that in the initial design (heck, don't even worry about the firmware for it at this stage). Later on it can then be done if people need it without a change of core design or PCBs (just new firmware and additional hardware), but you're not worried about every possible scenario from day 1. > Per-track access time from the CF shouldn't be much of an issue. One > can always delay the index pulse until the data is ready (recall that > at 300 RPM, an index pulse occurs every 200 msec.). True, but then wouldn't you have to buffer the entire written (computer to device) and oversampled track of data in memory somewhere rather than spitting it straight out to the CF card (via suitable serial ==> parallel conversion of course)? If there's a guarantee that the CF write speed is fast enough, then it should make the device simpler as hopefully something like a PIC micro has enough on-board RAM without worrying about external memory at all. Keeps costs down too if you're not mucking around with things like SIMM sockets. I think when I did some quick calculations a while back that CF write speed should be good enough - but it was close on marginal CF cards (it seems like write speed can vary a lot between manufacturers) when handling floppy drives with high data rates (and assuming a reasonable level of oversampling). Read speed (device to computer) shouldn't be an issue, I think. For something like a 500Mbps/300rpm drive and 8x oversampling, I don't think there'd be a problem at all, assuming that a disk surface can be stored on the card as a raw linear sequence of blocks (worrying about handling of fragmented files or encoding lots of metadata might screw things up). It'd be a fun project, at any rate... cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 6 13:00:34 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 19:00:34 +0000 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 6/12/06 01:45, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 8:08 PM +0000 12/5/06, Adrian Graham wrote: >> We have some RD53s to test for a customer..... > > You have my sympathy. Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I wrote in the 1980's...... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Dec 6 13:19:00 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 14:19:00 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45768F96.15253.2D558F51@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4576FC0A.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> <4576FC0A.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061206132313.052ea548@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >On 6 Dec 2006 at 11:21, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Darn interesting idea, though :) That implies some intelligence > controlling > > the gadget 'remotely' though, or at the mickey-mouse end of the scale, a > > rotary switch on top of the device to say which image to select. Perhaps a > > version 2 thing? > >Ideally, a couple of pushbuttons and a small LCD display, I'd think. >Floppy changing is a manual effort in the real world; no reason to do >it differently in the simulated world. RGBDos for the CoCo makes it quite a bit easier - it patches the onboard RSDOS to allow up to 256 emulated floppies - there's a command that allows some real floppies in the mix as well (say, drives 0 and 1 are real, then 2-255 are emulated on the CF card). The logic associated with onboard buttons (and a display) adds a layer of complexity to the device that would have to be thoroughly debugged... sometimes software can be easier. ;-) > > Hmm, that 'feels' messy, somehow. Not sure why - but I think I'd prefer > one > > gadget per drive... To me, the whole point of "big storage" is to increase the number of floppies available without increasing the cost.... if you have one gizmo per drive, the cost increase for multiple dries goes up linearly. With the emulated solution, you could (easily) have hundreds of floppies, without the hundredfold increase in cost. $100 for my CoCo IDE interface and $20 for the 256Meg might sound like a lot until one figures I get 256 RSDOS floppies *and* a 170Meg NitrOS9 hard drive all in one (very) small package. That's $0.50 per virtual floppy drive & a relatively large NitrOS9 HD kicked in for good measure... ;-) Anywho, that's just me, and I like me that way. (At least that's what the voices say... ;-) ) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 13:38:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:38:07 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45770D84.9090902@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <45768F96.15253.2D558F51@cclist.sydex.com>, <45770D84.9090902@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4576AB9F.7976.2DC311B0@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2006 at 12:35, Jules Richardson wrote: > True, but then wouldn't you have to buffer the entire written (computer to > device) and oversampled track of data in memory somewhere rather than spitting > it straight out to the CF card (via suitable serial ==> parallel conversion of > course)? Oh, absolutely. I was thinking of a RAM track buffer and a counter that spit out an index pulse every time the counter reset to zero. It would be simple to also have a second counter to emit sector pulses to simulate hard disks. Other than the buffer itself, I think most of the logic (counters, serializer/deserializer, memory arbitration, etc. could be implemented in a modest CPLD. I suppose one could mitigate CF write latency with some double-buffering. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 13:42:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:42:02 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061206132313.052ea548@mail.30below.com> References: <4576FC0A.9070408@yahoo.co.uk>, <45768F96.15253.2D558F51@cclist.sydex.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20061206132313.052ea548@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4576AC8A.19413.2DC6A896@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2006 at 14:19, Roger Merchberger wrote: > RGBDos for the CoCo makes it quite a bit easier - it patches the onboard > RSDOS to allow up to 256 emulated floppies - there's a command that allows > some real floppies in the mix as well (say, drives 0 and 1 are real, then > 2-255 are emulated on the CF card). That's nice if'n you know what platform you're aiming at. But a general-purpose floppy emulator probably doesn't have that luxury. I mean, what would you do for say, a Ioline fabric cutter or Meistergram embroidery machine? (That's where you'll find a lot of floppies still in use). Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 13:47:07 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:47:07 -0500 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <2789adda0612060809p4d9b2474pf6f4c1ce199d2fca@mail.gmail.com> References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> <45767974.8000706@shiresoft.com> <2789adda0612060809p4d9b2474pf6f4c1ce199d2fca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Looks like Guy and I share some common interests; including british cars > (MGB'79, MGA'57). I wonder if 1130's leak oil? The 2311 will indeed leak oil. No joke. -- Will From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Dec 6 14:23:38 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 15:23:38 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <4576AC8A.19413.2DC6A896@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061206132313.052ea548@mail.30below.com> <4576FC0A.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> <45768F96.15253.2D558F51@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20061206132313.052ea548@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061206151126.03b547d8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >On 6 Dec 2006 at 14:19, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > RGBDos for the CoCo makes it quite a bit easier - it patches the onboard > > RSDOS to allow up to 256 emulated floppies - there's a command that allows > > some real floppies in the mix as well (say, drives 0 and 1 are real, then > > 2-255 are emulated on the CF card). > >That's nice if'n you know what platform you're aiming at. But a >general-purpose floppy emulator probably doesn't have that luxury. I >mean, what would you do for say, a Ioline fabric cutter or >Meistergram embroidery machine? (That's where you'll find a lot of >floppies still in use). Ah, OK. Now I get yer drift... With all this talk of "multiple floppies means multiple gizmos" I was internally translating that to "microcomputer systems" as I'd not really seen many specialty machines that took multiple floppies like that... ;-) You're looking for something that plugs straight into the floppy cable to do it's "dirty work." If that's the case, *if* (yea, big if) the device supports multiple drives on the same cable, one could monitor the DriveSelect lines and automagically support multiple floppies from a single device... [[ "swapping" floppies would still need some form of external interface, methinks... ]] Don't mind me - I lost my village long ago. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Dec 6 14:24:57 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:24:57 -0600 Subject: RK05 disk images & PDP-11/70 In-Reply-To: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <000101c71974$99589a90$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Awesome. It will be good to see more machines up 24/7, especially something as large as a /70. Can't wait to see what you've got on those packs :) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy Sotomayor > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 2:18 AM > To: General at shiresoft.com; Discussion at shiresoft.com :On-Topic > Posts Only > Subject: RK05 disk images & PDP-11/70 > > Hi, > > I just wanted to let folks know that I've gotten my 11/70 > setup with BSD2.11. It now has 2 Fujitsu Eagles attached to > an Emulex SC72. BSD "thinks" there are 4 RP06 drives attached! > > Now that I have enough disk storage on it, I'm going to start > to image the 200+ (yes, that's *not* a typo) RK05 packs. > It'll take a seriously long time to go through all of the > packs since before I will put a "strange" pack into the RK05 > drive on the '70 (actually *any* of my RK05 drives), I > disassemble the pack and completely clean the enclosure and > the platter. Since there's a fair amount of DEC distribution > media among the packs, I'll be doing the "high" value packs > first. I'll let folks know how it goes and try to put > together a catalog of what's there. > > I've configured this 11/70 (actually a DS570) to be able to read/write > RL01/2 packs and RK05 packs. It also has a TU80 so I can > also read/write 1600bpi 9-track tapes. > > It also has a DELUA ethernet. BSD is configured for TCP/IP > and I've set it up to use one of my static IPs. DNS is > pointing to it as neptune.shiresoft.com. This will allow me > to move bits on/off the '70 with relative ease. > > I'm also contemplating letting it run 24/7 (I may reconsider > once I see my electric bill) and offering access to > individuals. What do y'all think? > > -- > > TTFN - Guy > > From jhoger at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 14:36:31 2006 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John R.) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 12:36:31 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: On 12/6/06, Warren Wolfe wrote: > Hello, Fellow Cyber-Archaeologists, > > I have an idea... (everybody duck) > > One of the more common problems in the field of classic computers is > that of loading operating systems, programs, and data onto an old > machine. Could we not come up with a standard means of information > interchange? I would suggest the USB memory sticks one sees everywhere > now. I just bought a few of them at about four dollars each -- and each > one stores a gigabyte of information. > You need to add a USB host controller. This solves a more general problem of getting access to modern USB devices. Flash drives, keyboards, joysticks, mice, serial adapters, parallel adapters, even VGA adapters. The good news is, that this has already been done... see http://microusb.org If you poke around, they do have Forth code for accessing a USB flash key drive. -- John. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 14:42:59 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 12:42:59 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061206151126.03b547d8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061206132313.052ea548@mail.30below.com>, <4576AC8A.19413.2DC6A896@cclist.sydex.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20061206151126.03b547d8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4576BAD3.29152.2DFE7685@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2006 at 15:23, Roger Merchberger wrote: > With all this talk of "multiple floppies means multiple gizmos" I was > internally translating that to "microcomputer systems" as I'd not really > seen many specialty machines that took multiple floppies like that... ;-) There are still boatloads of old CNC machinery out there in productive use. Consider that the purchase price was often in 6 figures and that there's basically nothing wrong with the part that's attached to the iron casting (i.e., the business end of the tool). Tool vendors are most likely to encourage you to purchase a whole new machine than upgrade parts of it. > You're looking for something that plugs straight into the floppy cable to > do it's "dirty work." If that's the case, *if* (yea, big if) the device > supports multiple drives on the same cable, one could monitor the > DriveSelect lines and automagically support multiple floppies from a single > device... [[ "swapping" floppies would still need some form of external > interface, methinks... ]] That's what I was thinking of, all right. Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 6 15:21:20 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 15:21:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: Big Book (website) of Amiga Hardware Message-ID: <200612062121.kB6LLKPa077887@keith.ezwind.net> FYI: (especially Amiga fans/owners) I hope someone decides to help preserve all his work. Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Ian: "After nearly 8 years of running the Big Book of Ami ga Hardware, I've decided it's time for me to retire from maintaining the site. The reasons are many and varied, but personal. The p roject started in January 1999 and since then has gr own to be what it is today. This wouldn't have been possible without the hundreds of contributors that t ook their time to help out, many of who sent hundred s of photographs over the years." http://www.amiga-hardware.com/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 6 15:56:56 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 21:56:56 +0000 Subject: Big Book (website) of Amiga Hardware In-Reply-To: <200612062121.kB6LLKPa077887@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 6/12/06 21:21, "aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk" wrote: > > FYI: (especially Amiga fans/owners) > > I hope someone decides to help preserve all > his work. Me too, does anyone have the bandwidth to keep the site running? I don't, otherwise I'd be on it like a shot..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From feedle at feedle.net Wed Dec 6 16:08:42 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 15:08:42 -0700 Subject: Big Book (website) of Amiga Hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45773F6A.9020002@feedle.net> Adrian Graham wrote: > > On 6/12/06 21:21, "aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk" > wrote: > > >> FYI: (especially Amiga fans/owners) >> >> I hope someone decides to help preserve all >> his work. >> > > Me too, does anyone have the bandwidth to keep the site running? I don't, > otherwise I'd be on it like a shot..... > > According to the site, the German mirror's maintainer will keep it going, so there's no cause for alarm. From jhoger at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 16:24:54 2006 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John R.) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:24:54 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/6/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Dec 2006 at 10:46, Simon Fryer wrote: > > > I was thinking of doing the same sort of thing but using compact flash > > cards and building some electronics as the interface for the QIC tape > > interface. Thinking about it is about as far as I got. From what I > > understand, the electronics and software for interfacing Compact Flash > > is a little easier than USB. > > I've been toying with the idea of using a CF to provide emulation for > floppy drives. More complicated, as the thing has to look like a A good start: http://www.thesvd.com/SVD/ -- John. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 17:35:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 15:35:18 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: References: , <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4576E336.26622.2E9C3669@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2006 at 14:24, John R. wrote: > A good start: > http://www.thesvd.com/SVD/ Thanks for the link! An interesting idea. If my mind isn't playing tricks on me, there also was a similar commercial device for the PeeCee sometime during the 80's. Freakishly expensive, even for then. The SVD widget appears to store decoded data (256KB SRAM), which means it has to know something about the system it's working with. I haven't looked at the firmware listing yet, so I'm fuzzy on details. Is it better to store undecoded data streams (like a Catweasel) or the decoded data? My inclination is to deal with raw track data without attempting to interpret it. Requires quite a bit more memory to store data, but has fewer limitations. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 6 17:39:45 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 23:39:45 +0000 Subject: Big Book (website) of Amiga Hardware In-Reply-To: <45773F6A.9020002@feedle.net> Message-ID: On 6/12/06 22:08, "C. Sullivan" wrote: >> Me too, does anyone have the bandwidth to keep the site running? I don't, >> otherwise I'd be on it like a shot..... >> >> > > According to the site, the German mirror's maintainer will keep it > going, so there's no cause for alarm. Excellent, ta for that! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 6 17:57:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 23:57:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> from "Warren Wolfe" at Dec 6, 6 03:17:44 am Message-ID: > > I still think finding what appears to be a first edition of 'Automatic > > Digital Computers' for 30p beats it... > > > A first edition? Without a doubt. At 30 quid it beats it -- beats It's not in great condiiton in that it has the library stamps in it. On the other hand, I met Professor Wilkes about 20 years ago and he very kindly autographied it for me. I think it's worth a little more than I paid for it :-).... -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 6 18:15:18 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 18:15:18 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <4576E336.26622.2E9C3669@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com>, <4576E336.26622.2E9C3669@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45775D16.2000401@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Is it better to store undecoded data streams (like a Catweasel) or > the decoded data? My inclination is to deal with raw track data > without attempting to interpret it. Requires quite a bit more memory > to store data, but has fewer limitations. Certainly on the gadget I'd prefer to store raw, undecoded data - as you say, encoding the data requires knowledge about the actual disk data being stored (and potentially screws up various copy-protection schemes in the process). Personally I'd see any data stored within the gadget as purely transient; the 'real' archival copy would be held somewhere on properly backed up storage and I'd expect tools to exist there to either compress / decompress the 'raw' copies, or to have some intelligence and allow conversion between decoded form (suitable for analysing, manipulating, using with emulators etc.) and the raw format used on the 'floppy emulator'. Of course conversion requires knowledge of the data at a higher level - but that's OK as a user can just install the relevant conversion tools on their modern system according to what hardware they have (rather than the floppy emulator having to have knowledge of every vintage floppy / filesystem format on the planet) cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From jhoger at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 19:22:13 2006 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John R.) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 17:22:13 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <4576E336.26622.2E9C3669@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> <4576E336.26622.2E9C3669@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/6/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Dec 2006 at 14:24, John R. wrote: > > > A good start: > > http://www.thesvd.com/SVD/ > > Thanks for the link! > > An interesting idea. If my mind isn't playing tricks on me, there > also was a similar commercial device for the PeeCee sometime during > the 80's. Freakishly expensive, even for then. > > The SVD widget appears to store decoded data (256KB SRAM), which > means it has to know something about the system it's working with. I > haven't looked at the firmware listing yet, so I'm fuzzy on details. > > Is it better to store undecoded data streams (like a Catweasel) or > the decoded data? My inclination is to deal with raw track data > without attempting to interpret it. Requires quite a bit more memory > to store data, but has fewer limitations. > Yeah I guess one way is the "embedded systems" approach and the other is a desktop approach. For archival purpose I think your idea is better. For daily use (the SVD is a "peripheral" that travels between machines) I think the decoded data is probably better. On the desktop I expect you still wouldn't store the raw data, but pipe to a filter that decodes it and store that. -- John. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 6 19:36:02 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 17:36:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: References: <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> <4576E336.26622.2E9C3669@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061206172943.L45116@shell.lmi.net> > > Is it better to store undecoded data streams (like a Catweasel) or > > the decoded data? My inclination is to deal with raw track data > > without attempting to interpret it. Requires quite a bit more memory > > to store data, but has fewer limitations. > > Yeah I guess one way is the "embedded systems" approach and the other > is a desktop approach. For archival purpose I think your idea is > better. For daily use (the SVD is a "peripheral" that travels between > machines) I think the decoded data is probably better. Ah, we've been here before. For a "universal disk storage" device or format, you need to have the capability of three different levels 1) files 2) sectors 3) flux transition + software to convert both ways between all three #3, flux transition ideally calls for the device to have an SA800/SA400 interface, and would not require any additional software on the machine. Since conversion between USB interface and memory cards is readily available, either would do. But, howzbout RS232 and/or "centronics" parallel? From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Dec 6 21:35:52 2006 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 21:35:52 -0600 Subject: Help needed in identifying an early IC Message-ID: <000001c719b0$cbc21060$176fa8c0@obie> I've come across a few old ICs and haven't been able to find out much about them - lots of places on the 'net are willing to sell them but I couldn't find a data sheet - only one clue that they _might_ be dual op-amps. They are small cans (TO-??) with eight leads protruding from the bottom, marked SG 1458T with a 1976 date code. Any help identifying them would be appreciated. Kind of hoping they're really some sort of shift register ... Thanks, Jack -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release Date: 12/5/2006 4:07 PM From vrs at msn.com Wed Dec 6 21:47:33 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 19:47:33 -0800 Subject: Help needed in identifying an early IC References: <000001c719b0$cbc21060$176fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: From: "Jack Rubin" > I've come across a few old ICs and haven't been able to find out much > about them - lots of places on the 'net are willing to sell them but I > couldn't find a data sheet - only one clue that they _might_ be dual > op-amps. They are small cans (TO-??) with eight leads protruding from > the bottom, marked SG 1458T with a 1976 date code. Any help identifying > them would be appreciated. Kind of hoping they're really some sort of > shift register ... Here's an overview: http://www.datasheets.org.uk/specsheet.php?part=SG1458T Looks like it's a dual op amp. Vince From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 22:00:11 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 23:00:11 -0500 Subject: Help needed in identifying an early IC In-Reply-To: <000001c719b0$cbc21060$176fa8c0@obie> References: <000001c719b0$cbc21060$176fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: > I've come across a few old ICs and haven't been able to find out much > about them - lots of places on the 'net are willing to sell them but I > couldn't find a data sheet - only one clue that they _might_ be dual > op-amps. They are small cans (TO-??) with eight leads protruding from > the bottom, marked SG 1458T with a 1976 date code. Any help identifying > them would be appreciated. Kind of hoping they're really some sort of > shift register ... Yes, it is a dual op amp, Silicon General 1458. Standard stuff, but worth saving. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 6 22:06:52 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 20:06:52 -0800 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:00 PM +0000 12/6/06, Adrian Graham wrote: >Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up >the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I >wrote in the 1980's...... If it's just something like the heads sticking, it might be possible to revive the drive, at least long enough to get the data off. BTW, while several other people have done this over the years, I didn't have any luck the one time I tried to revive an RD53, so you'll want to ask someone other than me any questions. :^) I've even heard of people running the drives for years after fixing the problem. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Dec 6 05:10:19 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:10:19 +0000 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <4576759A.90501@msm.umr.edu> References: <4575F54C.9000708@msm.umr.edu> <4575F7CA.20103@gjcp.net> <4576759A.90501@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4576A51B.6020109@gjcp.net> jim stephens wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> jim stephens wrote: >> >>> right now it is a real find, but after some amateur trys to pull it >>> and fails, it will be >>> sad. >> >> Well, now's the time to get in touch with the buyer and offer to help... >> >> Gordon > > I'm up to my eyeballs in trying to save my own pile while moving out of > expensive storage to offer much, and it is too remote from me and too short > of a time frame for anyone to do much. I just hope he can get it out. > > He has problems I have no solutions or means to help with, or I'd offer it. Might be worth just getting in touch and telling him if he gets stuck, then this list is here. Maybe see if you can give him a phone number or something. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Dec 6 05:13:43 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:13:43 +0000 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4576A5E7.60607@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> I want to convert a ASR33 from 110V/50Hz ( yes , 50Hz) to 220V. >> >> Is it sufficient to swap the motor and fuses ? > > I have never seen a 230V motor for an ASR33. All the ASR33s I've seen in > the UK have 115V motors (and the same rating of fuse that you'd expect > for a 115V machine). > > There's an autotransformer fitted in the stand to get 115V from the 230V > mains. That's the change. As an aside, if I've got 110v equipment and 240v mains, would a yellow transformer be suitable for running it? I'd assume that most kit will be happy enough with a centre-tapped supply but I don't know if I want to risk it... Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Dec 6 09:40:07 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 15:40:07 +0000 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> 9000 VAX wrote: > I don't know how much times a flash memory can be written. It might be > OK to > make a bootable device from it. > > My concern is about how to make replacement RL02, RD53 or similar. Flash > memory might not be good for this purpose. > > vax, 9000 Static RAM and a nicad? Gordon From phil_skates at yahoo.com Wed Dec 6 10:11:11 2006 From: phil_skates at yahoo.com (Philipp Rey) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 08:11:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: hp 9153c Message-ID: <245752.29606.qm@web51515.mail.yahoo.com> hi carlos! i saw your thread on classiccmp.org. you seem to know alot about hp-ux. so here's my question: do you know of a way/program to convert dos/windows ascii files so they can be read by hp 9153c disk drive running on a hp 9000 series 300 computer. i think what i need is to be able to convert fat/ntfs file system to a lif, right? thank-you! philipp --------------------------------- Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Dec 6 16:27:19 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 22:27:19 +0000 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457743C7.8030407@gjcp.net> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 6/12/06 01:45, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >> At 8:08 PM +0000 12/5/06, Adrian Graham wrote: >>> We have some RD53s to test for a customer..... >> You have my sympathy. > > Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up > the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I > wrote in the 1980's...... What actually fails in them? Gordon. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 7 03:00:31 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 06:00:31 -0300 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <134e01c719de$31114d00$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Comments, anyone? Has this been done? Would people see it as an > abomination or boon? Who would be interested in (and capable of) > producing a USB interface card for "their" computers? Well, there are common USB master chips you can find for less than $10. Something like you are thinking can be made in three "layers" for easy modification for each machine - Layer one: Interacts with the USB pen drive. - Layer two: intelligence between the USB pen drive (master controller) and the LOGIC part of the media controller for the old puter - Layer three: digital/analog circuits needed to interface the original 'puter media I'll give an example: - L1: Philips USB Master chip, controlled thru SPI - L2: Atmel Atmega32 or Atmega 128 doing the bridge between the USB Master and the computer itself - L3: TTL/ECL/CMOS/etc interfacing to the microcomputer Why three layers? Because in the level one, I can use compactflash, MMC, SD, Memory stick or ferrite cores (:oD) as the medium. The Level two can be reprogrammed at will, and level three can be a simple "cartridge" that can be changed to make it usable for any old computer. And all modules can be independently developed. With proper help and a nice qty done, all this can be less than $50 to build, and a fun to develop. Comments, suggestions, rocks and apple (ueba!) pies!? Alexandre Souza www.tabajara-labs.com.br From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 7 03:06:49 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 06:06:49 -0300 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site><1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site><4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <136201c719df$0d048570$f0fea8c0@alpha> >I don't know how much times a flash memory can be written. It might be OK >to > make a bootable device from it. > My concern is about how to make replacement RL02, RD53 or similar. Flash > memory might not be good for this purpose. Something from 100.000 to 1.000.000 writes. Maybe battery-backed SRAM or the newer FRAM battery-less chips fits the bill. Greetings from Brazil Alexandre Souza www.tabajara-labs.com.br From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 7 03:05:51 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 06:05:51 -0300 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <136101c719df$0cbcf520$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Question: do CF cards support 8 bit transfers though, and are they > guaranteed to do so? IDE interfaces have been homebrewed to a lot of > vintage machines, but quite often they only support drives that'll do 8 > bit data transfers. Yep, they do. > It's IDE on a smaller pin pitch I think. Certainly there's no smarts to > the IDE-CF convertor that I have here - CF socket, power socket, IDE > socket, a capacitor, and a jumper for master/slave. That's it. Yes, you are sure > And like SCSI, interfacing to IDE is mainly a software issue - the > hardware tends to be a few buffers and little more. This is "not so easy" as you may think. But my three-layers-approach seems to fit nicely here. Anyone has the protocol of a QIC-80 drive? I'd like to take a peek on that. BTW, remember: This does not need to be a CF card, it can even be some cheap SRAM memory and a serial or ethernet connection... :o) Greetz from Brazil Alexandre Souza www.tabajara-labs.com.br From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 7 06:02:34 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 06:02:34 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <20061206172943.L45116@shell.lmi.net> References: <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> <4576E336.26622.2E9C3669@cclist.sydex.com> <20061206172943.L45116@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <457802DA.1080000@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Is it better to store undecoded data streams (like a Catweasel) or >>> the decoded data? My inclination is to deal with raw track data >>> without attempting to interpret it. Requires quite a bit more memory >>> to store data, but has fewer limitations. >> Yeah I guess one way is the "embedded systems" approach and the other >> is a desktop approach. For archival purpose I think your idea is >> better. For daily use (the SVD is a "peripheral" that travels between >> machines) I think the decoded data is probably better. > > Ah, we've been here before. Several times :-) > For a "universal disk storage" device or format, you need to have the > capability of three different levels > 1) files > 2) sectors > 3) flux transition > + software to convert both ways between all three The latter point's the important bit, I suppose. If you merely want a replacement for failing floppy disks, then surely flux transition storage / playback is sufficient? I'd imagine that such data probably compresses reasonably well (say for archival purposes), too. But (as you say) to actually *do* anything more constructive with the data at the sector level (such as convert to other disk image formats) you need to be able to decode the flux transitions based on knowledge of what low-level encoding scheme was used for a particular image. Similarly at the file level (such as viewing / copying files to other filesystems) you need tools that can both decode the flux transitions based on encoding scheme, and decode the filesystem based upon whatever system the image is for. Personally I'd be inclined to go for a device that just handles raw flux transitions at the moment and worry about manipulation tools further down the line; the priority right now is likely for something that can replace floppy disks on vintage hardware, not for some bells and whistles tool that comes with a big software suite for data manipulation. Having said that, as a test does anyone have the tools available to record a disk image at the flux transition level with suitable oversampling? It'd be interesting to see how difficult it is in software to engineer that back to sector-level data (filesystem-level we know isn't a problem!). > #3, flux transition ideally calls for the device to have an SA800/SA400 > interface, and would not require any additional software on the machine. My gut feeling is that's the sensible way to start, with other interface types being supported further down the line. Just keep in mind when designing the hardware and firmware that an SA800/400 interface isn't the only type that we may want to support in the future. Of course if there are people with non-SA800/400 drives on board and with suitable technical knowledge then there's nothing to stop them being supported from day 1 - but I suspect that most people will be more familiar with the SAxxx drives. > Since conversion between USB interface and memory cards is readily > available, either would do. But, howzbout RS232 and/or "centronics" > parallel? I do think that a comms mechanism between device and more modern machine would be nice, purely to save swapping 'local storage' (CF, USB stick, whatever) around so much. However, I wouldn't think it vital for an initial release (or any kind of proof of concept). Note that I am hoping that a CF card (or USB stick) has fast enough data transfer rates so that the gadget doesn't actually *need* a big pile of local memory - it can just operate to/from the card/stick direct. In other words, the card/stick isn't just a means of getting data to the device - it *is* the device's local working storage too. That's perhaps not in keeping with what others are thinking - but personally I'd prefer the lower complexity / cost / parts count / development time if it can be shown that there's no actual need for local memory (other than the obvious few bytes of operating RAM - which with something like a PIC is quite possibly all on-board anyway) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 7 06:08:16 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 06:08:16 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> <4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45780430.2080400@yahoo.co.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > 9000 VAX wrote: >> I don't know how much times a flash memory can be written. It might be >> OK to >> make a bootable device from it. >> >> My concern is about how to make replacement RL02, RD53 or similar. Flash >> memory might not be good for this purpose. >> >> vax, 9000 > > Static RAM and a nicad? If the interface is CF, which is just IDE, then I suppose it's possible to just hook an IDE hard disk up instead. Maybe :-) (I've often wondered if I can do this with my digital camera, and the camera will automagically know how much storage it has - but I presume that because the camera uses a FAT filesystem it'll get upset around the 500MB mark and probably not recognise anything beyond that) cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Dec 7 08:39:04 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 08:39:04 -0600 Subject: hp 9153c In-Reply-To: <245752.29606.qm@web51515.mail.yahoo.com> References: <245752.29606.qm@web51515.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45782788.1090703@mdrconsult.com> Philipp Rey wrote: > hi carlos! > > i saw your thread on classiccmp.org. you seem to know alot about hp-ux. so here's my question: do you know of a way/program to convert dos/windows ascii files so they can be read by hp 9153c disk drive running on a hp 9000 series 300 computer. i think what i need is to be able to convert fat/ntfs file system to a lif, right? If your 9000 is networked with the Windows system, you can probably just ftp the file across in ASCII mode. Doc From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Dec 7 09:16:03 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:16:03 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45780430.2080400@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> <45780430.2080400@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200612071016.03854.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 07 December 2006 07:08, Jules Richardson wrote: > (I've often wondered if I can do this with my digital camera, and the > camera will automagically know how much storage it has - but I presume > that because the camera uses a FAT filesystem it'll get upset around > the 500MB mark and probably not recognise anything beyond that) FAT16 works fine up to 2GB, and you can buy 4GB and larger flash memory for cameras... It's possible that your camera will do FAT32 just fine, and work with larger than 2GB filesystems. 500MB had to do with a cylinder/head/sector number limitation when you combined the maximums you could do with IDE and the limits imposed by BIOS calls. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 7 10:05:38 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 10:05:38 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <200612071016.03854.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> <45780430.2080400@yahoo.co.uk> <200612071016.03854.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <45783BD2.7000302@yahoo.co.uk> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 07 December 2006 07:08, Jules Richardson wrote: >> (I've often wondered if I can do this with my digital camera, and the >> camera will automagically know how much storage it has - but I presume >> that because the camera uses a FAT filesystem it'll get upset around >> the 500MB mark and probably not recognise anything beyond that) > > FAT16 works fine up to 2GB, and you can buy 4GB and larger flash memory > for cameras... It's possible that your camera will do FAT32 just fine, > and work with larger than 2GB filesystems. Interesting. The camera's manual (it's a Canon G5 so what, three or four years old?) doesn't list anything past 256MB - but then it's quite possible that 256MB was the biggest (and 'Canon approved') card around at the time. I tend to find that if I'm taking shots of things like PCBs that it takes a while to get the tripod and backdrop set up 'just right', so anything that doesn't require me to disturb the camera (such as swapping CF cards) is a plus. Other than that it's not a problem anyway, so it was more a case of idle speculation as to whether it would work :-) cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Dec 7 10:11:46 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:11:46 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site><1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site><4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> <136201c719df$0d048570$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> I haven't been following this thread too closely... but if it's going to be a machine independent storage device, why is there talk about it being a replacement for a floppy drive? Most of the machines in my collection didn't have floppy drives available. There was also talk of holding the flux transitions in a memory buffer. Is that possible on a machine with only say... 8K of core when you consider the additional software that must be present in the machine to interface? I would think the best interface to a host is serial (from a common denominator standpoint), and then provide different software on each host to make it appear as a drive of the chosen type. In other words, let the same device that can act as an RL02 on an DEC 11/20 also act as a 7900A on an HP 2100. I'd sure be willing to attempt finding time to write the HP specific end :) Jay West From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Thu Dec 7 10:28:32 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:28:32 +0100 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> <136201c719df$0d048570$f0fea8c0@alpha> <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1165508912.30774.423.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-12-07 at 10:11 -0600, Jay West wrote: > I would think the best interface to a host is serial (from a common > denominator standpoint), and then provide different software on each host to > make it appear as a drive of the chosen type. Wouldn't it make more sense to design SCSI cards for the different machines which emulated the various relevant native disk/tape interfaces? It would allow you to hook up any ol' removable media, or just design a SCSI removable flash drive or something... -Tore From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 7 10:44:03 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 11:44:03 -0500 Subject: Help needed in identifying an early IC In-Reply-To: <000001c719b0$cbc21060$176fa8c0@obie> References: <000001c719b0$cbc21060$176fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: On Dec 6, 2006, at 10:35 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > I've come across a few old ICs and haven't been able to find out much > about them - lots of places on the 'net are willing to sell them but I > couldn't find a data sheet - only one clue that they _might_ be dual > op-amps. They are small cans (TO-??) with eight leads protruding from > the bottom, marked SG 1458T with a 1976 date code. Any help > identifying > them would be appreciated. Kind of hoping they're really some sort of > shift register ... 1458 is the "base" number for a frequently second-sourced dual op- amp. It is basically a dual 741. That package is most like a TO-99. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 7 10:52:47 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 08:52:47 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2006 at 10:11, Jay West wrote: > I haven't been following this thread too closely... but if it's going to > be a machine independent storage device, why is there talk about it being > a replacement for a floppy drive? Most of the machines in my collection > didn't have floppy drives available. There was also talk of holding the > flux transitions in a memory buffer. Is that possible on a machine with > only say... 8K of core when you consider the additional software that must > be present in the machine to interface? I was the one who was talking about a floppy replacement, only because the topic dovetailed nicely with something I'm currently "back of envelope-ing". Said floppy replacement would (within limits) not give a whit what the host machine was or its level of intelligence. It would simply be a plug-in replacement for a standard floppy and have all the smarts needed for that purpose self-contained. All of the other solutions that I'm reading about on this thread appear to be less-than-transparent replacements for existing devices in that they require some kind of software on the host system. The floppy drive replacement would not--you'd merely plug it in as a replacement floppy. If you're looking for a serial-interface (RS232/422/485) FC board, I've already posted a link to a commerical one that retails for under $70 and supports up to 4GB cards. Cheers, Chuck From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Dec 7 10:59:48 2006 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 08:59:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help needed in identifying an early IC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <462153.55134.qm@web53702.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Dave, that info is consistent with the fragmentary identification I found. Oh well, looks like I won't be building a shift-register memory device with these! Jack Dave McGuire wrote: On Dec 6, 2006, at 10:35 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > I've come across a few old ICs and haven't been able to find out much > about them - lots of places on the 'net are willing to sell them but I > couldn't find a data sheet - only one clue that they _might_ be dual > op-amps. They are small cans (TO-??) with eight leads protruding from > the bottom, marked SG 1458T with a 1976 date code. Any help > identifying > them would be appreciated. Kind of hoping they're really some sort of > shift register ... 1458 is the "base" number for a frequently second-sourced dual op- amp. It is basically a dual 741. That package is most like a TO-99. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 7 11:02:42 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 11:02:42 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site><1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site><4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> <136201c719df$0d048570$f0fea8c0@alpha> <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45784932.6080008@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > I haven't been following this thread too closely... but if it's going to > be a machine independent storage device, why is there talk about it > being a replacement for a floppy drive? I think some of us (myself included) sort of hijacked the thread (sorry Warren!). Personally I don't think that true independence (i.e. a device for any machine) is possible, partly because as you say some systems lack the necessary abilities, and mainly because it's so much work (heck, how many different systems have been built over the years? How many different interface boards would have to be made and software written to access them?) Targetting a specific storage medium - such as the floppy, whose days are numbered - does seem like a worthwhile project, though. Even there there are a lot of access methods to rotating removeable magnetic media, so picking the most common (such as SA400/800 drives) seems a sensible starting point. > There was also talk of > holding the flux transitions in a memory buffer. Only within the context of the on-board memory for a device which emulated a floppy drive, I think. Such a device doesn't make any assumptions about the system's hardware other than needing to know the data transfer rate across the floppy interface. > In other words, let the same device that can act as an RL02 on an DEC > 11/20 also act as a 7900A on an HP 2100. I'd sure be willing to attempt > finding time to write the HP specific end :) Great, so that's one tiny corner of the HP world covered, then ;-) Seriously, I really think it's waaay too much work (and in fact probably impossible; there must be plenty of systems out there for which sufficient technical documentation to build an interface and write the software no longer exists) However, emulating the common devices used as primary storage on vintage machines I think is a little more achievable; there are way less possible types than there are possible systems. It'd still be a daunting task to try and do everything - hence my feeling we should pick something common like the floppy drive (with the most common interface) for starters. cheers Jules From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Thu Dec 7 11:13:12 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 10:13:12 -0700 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <200612070910.kB79A6q9057035@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612070910.kB79A6q9057035@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45784BA8.2070407@rogerwilco.org> On 6/12/06 01:45, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >> At 8:08 PM +0000 12/5/06, Adrian Graham wrote: > >> >>> We have some RD53s to test for a customer..... >> > >> > >> You have my sympathy. > > Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up > the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the > systems I wrote in the 1980's...... A microVAX II that I acquired earlier this year included a RD53/Micropolis drive. After reading various posts about these drives I had very low expectations for reviving it and hopefully discovering something interesting on it. And to make matters more dire, during the pickup, when hefting the BA123 box to load it into the truck, the drive+sled slipped out and fell to the concrete floor, probably about 14". So, with absolutely no positive expectations, after getting things ready for a quick drive dump by netbooting NetBSD and setting up a remote mount, I fired up the drives. Lo and behold, it worked! It spun up nicely, I heard the heads seek to 0 and all was good. Turned out that the drive only had a minimal Ultrix root filesystem, but I'm quite pleased that the drive still seems to work. I've fired it up many times since in the past 6 months with no problems. Here's a suggestion. Knock that drive hard! ;) If the problem is that the heads are 'stuck', it just might kick them off the stop. If the drive is considered dead, might be worth a try! J From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Dec 7 11:14:41 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 12:14:41 -0500 Subject: Maxtor XT1140/2140 PCB needed Message-ID: <01C719F9.65BBB520@mse-d03> By any chance, does anyone have a circuit board from a scrapped Maxtor XT1140 or XT2140 (apparently interchangeable) that they'd consider parting with? mike From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Dec 7 11:15:24 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 12:15:24 -0500 Subject: PDP11 adventures Message-ID: <01C719F9.66D90C00@mse-d03> ------------------------Original Message: From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: PDP11 adventures At 7:00 PM +0000 12/6/06, Adrian Graham wrote: >Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up >the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I >wrote in the 1980's...... If it's just something like the heads sticking, it might be possible to revive the drive, at least long enough to get the data off. BTW, while several other people have done this over the years, I didn't have any luck the one time I tried to revive an RD53, so you'll want to ask someone other than me any questions. :^) I've even heard of people running the drives for years after fixing the problem. Zane -----------------Reply:------------------------------------------------------------------- I've run "sticky" Seagates for years; just had to give 'em a little push start every time there was a power failure. Here's another tip regarding RD53's mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (From http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~jmcm/info/rd53fix.txt) [RD53 spins up and down again] This is a common failure mode for RD53s. If you have backups of what's on the drive, then discard that drive and get a new one. If you have critical data on that drive that you need to save, here's a trick that might let you get it running for one last time: 1. Remove the drive from the machine. Disconnect the two data cables and the power cable. If the drive has the plastic "sled" that DEC uses to mount drives, remove that. 2. Remove the two screws that hold the main circuit board on the bottom of the drive. 3. Flip the logic board up, taking care not to damage it or any of the ribbon- like flexible circuits attached to it. 4. Underneath that board is the servo board. On one side of that board is a small flexible circuit that originates in the sealed drive housing and terminates in a plug on the servo board; I believe it's got three pins. Disconnect this plug. 5. With the drive in this partially-disassembled state, re-connect the two data cables and the power cable. Power-up the system. At this point, the drive should spin up and stay up, but will not go 'ready'. If the drive will not stay spun up at this point, then the drive is beyond help and you are out of luck. 6. If the drive is spinning OK then re-connect the ribbon cable to the servo board. The drive should go 'ready'. 7. Bring up your system and back up those data! When replacing the drive, a Micropolis 1325, I suggest replacing it with a better unit. A Micropolis 1335 will work OK -- all you need to do is jumper position R7 on the drive's logic board for DEC controllers to recognize it as an RD53. Better yet, get a Maxtor 2190 which is a DEC RD54. Not only do these drives hold more, they seem to last longer. Good luck, ---Bob. -- Bob Hoffman, N3CVL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 7 11:58:21 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 11:58:21 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? Message-ID: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / configuration and FTP client software so that I can connect to a remote FTP server from MSDOS? I don't think I've ever set up such a config from scratch. I can live with 10Mbps speeds if required (would DOS drivers even drive a card at anything more anyway?) NIC cards I seem to have available: Netgear FA310TX (PCI) HP 88809L (ISA) 3Com Etherlink III (PCI) 3Com Etherlink III (ISA) Asix NV100AM (PCI) 'Network Everywhere' NC100 (PCI) 3Com 3C905 (PCI) The ISA boards perhaps have the drawback that they're software configurable, so I have no idea what settings they'll want to use (or which interface), or how well they'll behave in the new-ish system I need to put a card in. The PCI boards on the other hand are newer so maybe DOS drivers don't even exist for them... (Etherlink III's were always reliable I seem to recall, but I never did like the idea of them being software configurable; it was much nicer to have jumpers on a card and *know* what it was configured as!) cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 7 12:09:22 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 10:09:22 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> References: , , <4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4577E852.26438.32982D7E@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2006 at 15:40, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Static RAM and a nicad? How about MRAM? http://www.eetechbrief.com/browse_archived_events.php?cat_id=6 35 nsec. and unlimited writes. Cheers, Chuck From feedle at feedle.net Thu Dec 7 12:24:50 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 11:24:50 -0700 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Dec 2006 at 10:11, Jay West wrote: > > >> I haven't been following this thread too closely... but if it's going to >> be a machine independent storage device, why is there talk about it being >> a replacement for a floppy drive? Most of the machines in my collection >> didn't have floppy drives available. There was also talk of holding the >> flux transitions in a memory buffer. Is that possible on a machine with >> only say... 8K of core when you consider the additional software that must >> be present in the machine to interface? >> > > I was the one who was talking about a floppy replacement, only > because the topic dovetailed nicely with something I'm currently > "back of envelope-ing". > > Said floppy replacement would (within limits) not give a whit what > the host machine was or its level of intelligence. It would simply > be a plug-in replacement for a standard floppy and have all the > smarts needed for that purpose self-contained. Chuck: It sounds like what you are looking for would be a microcontroller, some Flash memory (or possibly a CF/SD/MMC/whatever slot), with a couple of common floppy drive connectors (card-edge [5 1/4], card-edge [8"], and the modern pin-style [for 3 1/2"]). The device could be "dumb" in the first stages and just use, say, 2 megabytes of Flash. A more advanced version would have a small display and the aforementioned memory slot, and give you a choice of disk images stored. The "uber" advanced version might even understand some of the standard disk-image formats, so you could take (as an example) a CP/M or Apple ][ disk image directly from the Internet, drop it on a CF card, and plug it in to the computer in question and boot from it. Heck, while we're at it, add a mp3 decoder chip, so we can put cassette images on it. *chuckle* The microcontroller would interpret drive step instructions and return data from the track being read. It could also probably be designed to turn it around: connect up a standard floppy drive of your liking, stick a disk in, and it would make a disk image. I don't know enough about how floppy interfaces work, but I know enough about microcontrollers to see this as being a "not too difficult" project from the hardware side. Coding it might be difficult, getting all the timings right.. but it certainly does not strike me as "impossible". From feedle at feedle.net Thu Dec 7 12:52:47 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 11:52:47 -0700 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <457862FF.7000605@feedle.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / > configuration and FTP client software so that I can connect to a > remote FTP server from MSDOS? All you need to know: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/2884/dosint.htm From fryers at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 12:56:03 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:56:03 +0000 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Hey All, On 07/12/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / configuration > and FTP client software so that I can connect to a remote FTP server from MSDOS? Have done this in the past. There is/was a packet driver collection for a number of ISA based NICs - most of them in common supply. Then, NCSA Telnet (I think) included an FTP client. I *should* have all the software floating about (rotating) somewhere. From memory, it seemed to work quite well. [chomp] Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 7 13:17:28 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:17:28 -0700 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <200612071016.03854.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> <45780430.2080400@yahoo.co.uk> <200612071016.03854.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <457868C8.2010006@jetnet.ab.ca> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 07 December 2006 07:08, Jules Richardson wrote: > >>(I've often wondered if I can do this with my digital camera, and the >>camera will automagically know how much storage it has - but I presume >>that because the camera uses a FAT filesystem it'll get upset around >>the 500MB mark and probably not recognise anything beyond that) > > > FAT16 works fine up to 2GB, and you can buy 4GB and larger flash memory > for cameras... It's possible that your camera will do FAT32 just fine, > and work with larger than 2GB filesystems. > > 500MB had to do with a cylinder/head/sector number limitation when you > combined the maximums you could do with IDE and the limits imposed by > BIOS calls. Right now I am trying to build OS/8 ( for the SBC6120 PDP/8 clone ) and I have a whole 2 meg of file space per platter -- up to 8 platters for the drive. I am quite sure 500 meg will work fine for most classic computer systems. > Pat From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 7 13:20:05 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 19:20:05 +0000 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <457743C7.8030407@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 6/12/06 22:27, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: >> Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up >> the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I >> wrote in the 1980's...... > > What actually fails in them? Head actuator I think; it powers up and spins up, doesn't sound headcrashed but I can't hear or feel the heads move..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 7 13:24:54 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 19:24:54 +0000 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <45784BA8.2070407@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: On 7/12/06 17:13, "J Blaser" wrote: > And to make matters more dire, during the pickup, when hefting the BA123 box > to load it into the truck, the drive+sled slipped out and fell to the concrete > floor, probably about 14". Wasn't the standard drop height for those things 24" onto concrete and they'd survive? Or am I thinking of later DEC drives..... > Here's a suggestion. Knock that drive hard! ;) If the problem is that the > heads are 'stuck', it just might kick them off the stop. If the drive is > considered dead, might be worth a try! Yep, nothing to lose! I'll be trying it on Monday after a weekend of Alpha DS25s, ES40s and an HP EVA4000 with 56 146gb drives :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 7 13:28:34 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:28:34 -0700 Subject: mirrors - pdp stuff Message-ID: <45786B62.80206@jetnet.ab.ca> Does anybody have a mirror back up of this site? http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/ Hate to lose it if the *ONE* site dies. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Dec 7 13:26:22 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 19:26:22 +0000 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Dec 2006 11:58:21 CST." <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200612071926.TAA18337@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jules Richardson said: > > Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / configuration > and FTP client software so that I can connect to a remote FTP server from MSDOS? > > I don't think I've ever set up such a config from scratch. I can live with > 10Mbps speeds if required (would DOS drivers even drive a card at anything > more anyway?) > > NIC cards I seem to have available: > > Netgear FA310TX (PCI) > HP 88809L (ISA) > 3Com Etherlink III (PCI) > 3Com Etherlink III (ISA) > Asix NV100AM (PCI) > 'Network Everywhere' NC100 (PCI) > 3Com 3C905 (PCI) > > The ISA boards perhaps have the drawback that they're software configurable, > so I have no idea what settings they'll want to use (or which interface), or > how well they'll behave in the new-ish system I need to put a card in. The PCI > boards on the other hand are newer so maybe DOS drivers don't even exist for > them... > > (Etherlink III's were always reliable I seem to recall, but I never did like > the idea of them being software configurable; it was much nicer to have > jumpers on a card and *know* what it was configured as!) Mr Sullivan has pointed you to suitable resources, but if you run into problems drop me an email, I run a couple of DOS machines using FTP, telnet etc. I'm using 3Com Etherlink (ISA) and an old NE2000 compat. both work a treat using the crynwr driver. Software config is no problem on the 3Com cards, there's a DOS program for the job available from 3Com, or whatever they're known as now. (I've got copies anyway) The NCSA Telnet package includes a FTP client/server. Now if only there was Lynx for DOS :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 13:48:38 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 14:48:38 -0500 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <200612071926.TAA18337@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200612071926.TAA18337@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <45787016.2050004@gmail.com> Stan Barr wrote: > Now if only there was Lynx for DOS :-) There is... you just have to use an older version. Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 7 13:49:19 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 13:49:19 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net> References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk> C. Sullivan wrote: > Chuck: > > It sounds like what you are looking for would be a microcontroller, some > Flash memory (or possibly a CF/SD/MMC/whatever slot), with a couple of > common floppy drive connectors (card-edge [5 1/4], card-edge [8"], and > the modern pin-style [for 3 1/2"]). Basing it around the size of a stock 3.5" floppy drive, with the same mounting points, might be nice. Card slot / LCD / whatever at the front, stock power and pin connector at the back. Convenient mounting for systems with 3.5" drives, or with 5.25" via a bracket (I bet lots of us have one of those brackets tidied away). 8" is left as a bit more of an engineering exercise for the reader :-) > so you could take (as an example) a CP/M or Apple ][ disk image directly > from the Internet, drop it on a CF card, and plug it in to the computer > in question and boot from it. Heck, while we're at it, add a mp3 > decoder chip, so we can put cassette images on it. *chuckle* Bah, give it a wireless card and it can get its own darn images from the Internet! ;-) To be honest, I'd like it if the device did have a direct-link capability to the outside world (whether it be RS232, USB, Ethernet, parallel, SCSI, or whatever). But I'm not *that* bothered if it doesn't; it's not that difficult to sneakernet a CF card back and forth between the device and a modern system (except that I blew my card reader up a couple of months back :) IMHO: I think that having the device aware of sector, let alone filesystem, structure is a mistake though - it just adds complexity, increases firmware size, and can never hope to support all the systems out there anyway. Better to make the device good at its primary job - emulating a standard floppy drive - and leave support for more complex things to tools that can exist on a more modern machine as and when people feel like writing them. > I don't know enough about how floppy interfaces work, but I know enough > about microcontrollers to see this as being a "not too difficult" > project from the hardware side. Coding it might be difficult, getting > all the timings right.. but it certainly does not strike me as > "impossible". Timings shouldn't be too tricky I would have thought. Once you know the data rate and RPM then you know how often to sample the data stream (on floppy write) or output the current bit (on floppy read). There aren't many more parameters; you'd have to simulate step rate and motor on/off delays but that's about it (sensible defaults would probably work in a lot of cases as they can be a lot faster than a real drive - making them slow enough so as not to cause problems is likely the issue) If I knew anything about PIC design* I'd get to doing some messing around with it right now... :-) * assuming that a PIC is fast enough; it'll have to read/write to the floppy interface side at several times the floppy data transfer rate, so several MHz - then there are program overheads on top of that... (you could almost do a DMA approach to/from buffer memory actually and have the CPU relatively slow...) cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From wizard at voyager.net Thu Dec 7 13:56:47 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 14:56:47 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45780430.2080400@yahoo.co.uk> References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> <4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> <45780430.2080400@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1165521407.32029.194.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2006-12-07 at 06:08 -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: > If the interface is CF, which is just IDE, then I suppose it's possible to > just hook an IDE hard disk up instead. Maybe :-) > > (I've often wondered if I can do this with my digital camera, and the camera > will automagically know how much storage it has - but I presume that because > the camera uses a FAT filesystem it'll get upset around the 500MB mark and > probably not recognise anything beyond that) I personally use a 1 GB Compact Flash card in my Nikon 990, and it sees the whole Gig. Any point of confusion not related to specific devices must be 'north' of that point, and probably past that of the 4GB cards I have seen advertised. Due to binary math, 16 GB could well be a cut-off point. Apparently, some cards HAVE large (1Gb or greater) hard disks on them, also, so they may be even more expandable that that. (Of course, how a hard drive fits on a CF card form factor boggles MY mind, at least...) Oh, and thanks to EVERYONE who has commented on this topic. It's not really surprising that this subject generated some interest, but the depth and range of the discussion has been most gratifying and interesting. Thanks, again, to all involved! Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From rollerton at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 14:03:42 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:03:42 -0600 Subject: Maxtor XT1140/2140 PCB needed In-Reply-To: <01C719F9.65BBB520@mse-d03> References: <01C719F9.65BBB520@mse-d03> Message-ID: <2789adda0612071203y546405c2q29a184cb9a4ff17b@mail.gmail.com> was that the 120MB ST506 drive? On 12/7/06, M H Stein wrote: > > By any chance, does anyone have a circuit board from a scrapped > Maxtor XT1140 or XT2140 (apparently interchangeable) that they'd > consider parting with? > > mike > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 7 14:17:47 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:17:47 -0800 Subject: Maxtor XT1140/2140 PCB needed In-Reply-To: <2789adda0612071203y546405c2q29a184cb9a4ff17b@mail.gmail.com> References: <01C719F9.65BBB520@mse-d03>, <2789adda0612071203y546405c2q29a184cb9a4ff17b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4578066B.1673.330DBC7C@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2006 at 14:03, Robert Ollerton wrote: > was that the 120MB ST506 drive? I believe so--and I seem to remember that it also came in ESDI and SCSI-I flavors. Did this thing ever have a corresponding Miniscribe twin? It's been ages since I powered the one sitting on my shelf, but I seem to recall it was just as noisy on seeks as my Atasi/Priam drive of the same size. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 7 14:01:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 13:01:40 -0700 Subject: mirrors - pdp stuff In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:28:34 -0700. <45786B62.80206@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <45786B62.80206 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > Does anybody have a mirror back up of this site? > http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/ > Hate to lose it if the *ONE* site dies. Archive.org has stuff for it, I'm not sure if its 100% complete, but you might want to check. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rollerton at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 14:39:56 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:39:56 -0600 Subject: Maxtor XT1140/2140 PCB needed In-Reply-To: <4578066B.1673.330DBC7C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C719F9.65BBB520@mse-d03> <2789adda0612071203y546405c2q29a184cb9a4ff17b@mail.gmail.com> <4578066B.1673.330DBC7C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2789adda0612071239t40cf1189u18819bb79639765d@mail.gmail.com> I am pretty sure I have at least one of those, but I dont want to scrap it. A freind of mine might have some junkers, I am asking him now. On 12/7/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 7 Dec 2006 at 14:03, Robert Ollerton wrote: > > > was that the 120MB ST506 drive? > > I believe so--and I seem to remember that it also came in ESDI and > SCSI-I flavors. Did this thing ever have a corresponding > Miniscribe twin? It's been ages since I powered the one sitting on > my shelf, but I seem to recall it was just as noisy on seeks as my > Atasi/Priam drive of the same size. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From feedle at feedle.net Thu Dec 7 14:55:04 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 13:55:04 -0700 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net> <4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > C. Sullivan wrote: >> Chuck: >> >> It sounds like what you are looking for would be a microcontroller, >> some Flash memory (or possibly a CF/SD/MMC/whatever slot), with a >> couple of common floppy drive connectors (card-edge [5 1/4], >> card-edge [8"], and the modern pin-style [for 3 1/2"]). > > Basing it around the size of a stock 3.5" floppy drive, with the same > mounting points, might be nice. That was kind-of my thinking. I would build it in a full-height 5 1/4" form factor as well, only because the extra space would be nice and it would be easier to have both (all three?) connector formats in the larger frame. > 8" is left as a bit more of an engineering exercise for the reader :-) For my money, 8" compatibility would be VERY nice, especially for CP/M and other obsolete machines of similar vintage (TRS-80 Model II comes to mind). It is my understanding that there isn't much difference between 5 1/4" and 8" electrically, so it might be a moot point. > >> so you could take (as an example) a CP/M or Apple ][ disk image >> directly from the Internet, drop it on a CF card, and plug it in to >> the computer in question and boot from it. Heck, while we're at it, >> add a mp3 decoder chip, so we can put cassette images on it. *chuckle* > > Bah, give it a wireless card and it can get its own darn images from > the Internet! ;-) > > To be honest, I'd like it if the device did have a direct-link > capability to the outside world (whether it be RS232, USB, Ethernet, > parallel, SCSI, or whatever). But I'm not *that* bothered if it > doesn't; it's not that difficult to sneakernet a CF card back and > forth between the device and a modern system (except that I blew my > card reader up a couple of months back :) My view was that the "1.0" version would have USB or similar. > > IMHO: I think that having the device aware of sector, let alone > filesystem, structure is a mistake though - it just adds complexity, > increases firmware size, and can never hope to support all the systems > out there anyway. Better to make the device good at its primary job - > emulating a standard floppy drive - and leave support for more complex > things to tools that can exist on a more modern machine as and when > people feel like writing them. Understood. My intention was to make it work well as a drop-in drive replacement, and add the other stuff as 'enhanced' features for a 2.0 (or later) device. > > If I knew anything about PIC design* I'd get to doing some messing > around with it right now... :-) A fast PIC could do it. I was leaning more towards something a little more sophisticated (not that a PIC can't be), if for no other reason to support the creeping features I pointed out above. Also, the floppy timings on GCR formats can get a bit weird. FM/MFM should be fairly easy. Hard-sector formats might even be easier, or harder. Again, I don't know enough about the signals to really know. I do a lot of microcontroller crap. I'm in the middle of a move right now (from Portland, OR to Billings, MT), so I don't have a way of testing any theories right now.. but would definately be interested in pursuing this as a project early in the new year once I'm settled here. Anybody interested in starting up a mailing list specifically to start napkin-drawing this thing? I have a listserv... From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Dec 7 13:48:33 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 19:48:33 +0000 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45787011.1050302@gjcp.net> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 7/12/06 17:13, "J Blaser" wrote: > Yep, nothing to lose! I'll be trying it on Monday after a weekend of Alpha > DS25s, ES40s and an HP EVA4000 with 56 146gb drives :) And if that doesn't work... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glRMdVc_6cQ That drive has burnt its last coaster. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Dec 7 14:07:01 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:07:01 +0000 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45787465.2060206@gjcp.net> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 6/12/06 22:27, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: > >>> Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up >>> the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I >>> wrote in the 1980's...... >> What actually fails in them? > > Head actuator I think; it powers up and spins up, doesn't sound headcrashed > but I can't hear or feel the heads move..... I know that some old MFM drives *did* end up with the heads "stuck" in place. A few people have said that RD53s are bad for that, so it might be worth a shot. You can't make it work any less... Gordon. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Dec 7 15:22:22 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 16:22:22 -0500 Subject: Need any "old" tape media? Message-ID: <200612071622.22234.pat@computer-refuge.org> I've got a stack of 8mm (doesn't mention a size, a mix of Verbatim data tapes, and Sony and Fuji video tapes), 4mm DDS1 (both 60M and 90M), and DLT3 tapes at work which we're getting set to throw away... the DDS/8mm tapes have some data on them, and will be degaussed... the DLT3's are unused, from several years ago. Asking $2/tape plus shipping. I've got 50-100 of each available. If I don't hear anything by mid next week, they'll be thrown in the trash. Also, if anyone needs DLT or LTO tape cases (or 8mm or 4mm, assuming the tapes aren't sold), let me know. We've got a bunch of empty cases that are going in the trash for those as well. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 15:38:45 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 16:38:45 -0500 Subject: Help needed in identifying an early IC In-Reply-To: <462153.55134.qm@web53702.mail.yahoo.com> References: <462153.55134.qm@web53702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Thanks Dave, that info is consistent with the fragmentary identification I found. Oh well, looks like I won't be building a shift-register memory device with these! I think I have a bunch of 1404As in my stock - they are 1K by 1, I think. In sexy metal cans, too. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 15:44:31 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 10:44:31 +1300 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12/8/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > I can live with 10Mbps speeds if required (would DOS drivers even > drive a card at anything more anyway?) Strictly speaking, DOS is not limiting your signalling speed, but the ISA bus could be. There was one, only one, 100Mbps ISA card I ever ran across (by 3Com, but I can't remember the model number) - it had a PCI Ethernet chip and ISA<->PCI bridge chip, giving it, essentially, an onboard PCI bus. I considered supporting it with the GG2 Bus+, but I couldn't find one at the time for less than a couple hundred bucks and figured my customers wouldn't be able to, either. Plenty of PCI 100Mbps cards, but I don't know how much DOS support there is for those (packet drivers, etc). -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 7 15:45:10 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:45:10 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net> <4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk> <45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> Message-ID: <45788B66.30107@yahoo.co.uk> C. Sullivan wrote: >> 8" is left as a bit more of an engineering exercise for the reader :-) > > For my money, 8" compatibility would be VERY nice Oh, absolutely. I merely meant that building a suitable mounting bracket would be done on a per-case basis (were there ever companies officially selling 5.25" to 8" drive brackets? I've never come across such a thing) > It is my understanding that there isn't much difference between > 5 1/4" and 8" electrically, so it might be a moot point. Certainly it seems that driving a 8" drive using an 5.25" disk controller isn't too difficult in a lot of cases. I don't know if the reverse is true though, i.e. how easy it is to make the interface found on a typical 5.25" drive work with a system that's expecting 8" disks. >> To be honest, I'd like it if the device did have a direct-link >> capability to the outside world (whether it be RS232, USB, Ethernet, >> parallel, SCSI, or whatever). But I'm not *that* bothered if it >> doesn't; it's not that difficult to sneakernet a CF card back and >> forth between the device and a modern system (except that I blew my >> card reader up a couple of months back :) > > My view was that the "1.0" version would have USB or similar. Maybe; but it's not vital to operation as the intention would be for the primary storage to be something like a CF card or a USB stick. Although that is interesting; the primary store is a USB stick then it's presumably easy to code the firmware so that the device can be plugged in via a cable to a system running suitable host software as an alternative (providing the device holds sufficient local memory to buffer a track and USB data transfer to the host is fast enough to not upset whatever the floppy emulator's plugged in to). Of course I suspect that most of us on here (and in the context of vintage hardware in general) are more comfortable with something like RS232... Personally if I were building it I'd put an expansion bus connector on the board and forget about any kind of host interface for the the initial release; people can add daughtercards (and updated firmware) for their favourite comms interface at a later date... >>... > Understood. My intention was to make it work well as a drop-in drive > replacement, and add the other stuff as 'enhanced' features for a 2.0 > (or later) device. Complete agreement. Keep it simple for an initial release; just keep it in mind what direction it *might* take in future, I suppose. Key for an initial release would be getting it to act like a floppy drive *reliably* and working with some form of local storage (personally I like CF, but then I do tend to be a bit anti-USB :-) >> If I knew anything about PIC design* I'd get to doing some messing >> around with it right now... :-) > > A fast PIC could do it. I was leaning more towards something a little > more sophisticated (not that a PIC can't be), if for no other reason to > support the creeping features I pointed out above. Also, the floppy > timings on GCR formats can get a bit weird. FM/MFM should be fairly > easy. That's interesting; personally I hadn't thought about GCR at all really. The sort of thing I have stuck in my head right now has three small boards to it: 1) A 'core' board containing CPU, a bit of addressing logic, some local memory (whether a whole track buffer or not I don't know), LCD / switch logic, ROM, and a header for future expansion. 2) A 'local storage interface' board, such as one holding a Compact Flash connector and any control logic (I'd hope that most work could be done in software) 3) An 'emulation' board containing the floppy side of things - connector, buffers, and simple control logic (again I'd hope software could do the necessary line twiddling. The interface between the boards would just be an expansion bus; essentially just CPU lines and a bit of selection logic. The key is that such an approach allows someone to make the floppy-side 'emulation' board totally different in future (along with a firmware change) to support some completely different floppy electrical specification, or even make it look to a vintage machine like some totally different low-speed data device. Similarly, the 'local storage' side of things could be swapped for something else; but the core elements of the device would be that it does have some form of local storage (even if a remote host is connected via some other comms interface), some form of interface board to a vintage system, and that the 'core' board stays the same (with the exception of firmware changes). But, I'm not a hardware designer, so all of that is probably wrong. :-) > Hard-sector formats might even be easier, or harder. Again, I > don't know enough about the signals to really know. I suspect it's easy enough (but I don't know for sure). It can't be *that* complex, but whether it needs a change in hardware, I don't know. But see above - worst-case it's just a different emulation board. > I do a lot of microcontroller crap. I'm in the middle of a move right > now (from Portland, OR to Billings, MT), so I don't have a way of > testing any theories right now.. but would definately be interested in > pursuing this as a project early in the new year once I'm settled here. > Anybody interested in starting up a mailing list specifically to start > napkin-drawing this thing? I have a listserv... I just said that in a private email to Chuck a few hours ago, too :) I'm all for it - personally what I wouldn't want to see happening is people wanting millions of features from day one, though (that's what kills a lot of theoretical discussions on here! :) But a simple device that looks like an SA400/SA800 type floppy drive and uses some form of 'portable' local storage, and has some reasonable expansion options / future-proofing - yeah, I think that's probably doable. It's not exactly Warren's dream of a 'portable to every system' type device, but it's a still a darn useful thing to have and I suspect would solve a lot of problems for a lot of people (particularly longer-term). Plus it should be reasonably trivial to provide 'floppy to simulator' copying in the future without a physical vintage machine, which means that for not much effort we get the ability to archive possibly-damaged disks from vintage systems onto modern media. (I think Chuck was seeing that as a feature of the simulator, whereas I was seeing it more as a simple box of tricks which sat between the simulator and a physical drive to handle the necessary signalling) cheers Jules (all 'theorised out' today! :) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 7 15:49:48 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:49:48 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <457862FF.7000605@feedle.net> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> <457862FF.7000605@feedle.net> Message-ID: <45788C7C.5090405@yahoo.co.uk> C. Sullivan wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / >> configuration and FTP client software so that I can connect to a >> remote FTP server from MSDOS? > > All you need to know: > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/2884/dosint.htm So, I need a packet driver and a network stack, right? I've found the Etherlink III DOS config utility, so that's probably the card to go for as drivers seem readily available. Does anyone know if the Trumpet stack (hmm, is it even free?) is mirrored for download anywhere? The main Trumpet website is inaccessible (at least from here - I get 'forbidden' errors, but it may be that my ISPs web proxies have screwed up yet again) (The geeky side of me's quite looking forward to playing around with this; I think the last time I used an Ethernetted DOS machine was back in the early 90s :-) cheers Jules From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 7 17:12:34 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 20:12:34 -0300 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site><1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site><4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk><4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> <45780430.2080400@yahoo.co.uk> <1165521407.32029.194.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <160401c71a55$730a84c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Oh, and thanks to EVERYONE who has commented on this topic. It's > not really surprising that this subject generated some interest, but the > depth and range of the discussion has been most gratifying and > interesting. Thanks, again, to all involved! Warren, beyond the "commercial" aspects of the device, this is something I see very necessary for the preservation of old computers. My world (unfortunately) revolves around MSX, TRS-80, Apple and like. If I find hard to have good 5 1/4 disks, I can imagine people talking about DEC, VAX and like. DC-600 and DC-2000(?) tapes seems to last forever, but your milegage may vary. I think the construction of a kind of universal device for floppy emulation is the next step into old gear preservation. Greetz from Brazil Alexandre Souza www.tabajara-labs.com.br From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 7 17:14:16 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 20:14:16 -0300 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net><4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk> <45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> Message-ID: <160501c71a55$73c485f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Anybody interested in starting up a mailing list specifically to start > napkin-drawing this thing? I have a listserv... Chalk me on that! But would this kind of chat be offtopic for this list? From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 7 17:09:50 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 20:09:50 -0300 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com><45785C72.6040508@feedle.net> <4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <160301c71a55$72470db0$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> I don't know enough about how floppy interfaces work, but I know enough >> about microcontrollers to see this as being a "not too difficult" project >> from the hardware side. Coding it might be difficult, getting all the >> timings right.. but it certainly does not strike me as "impossible". Jules, seems that it is easy enough. I already started to do some experiments. In my proposition of the three-layers, the first and second layers are almost done. I just need to dig deeper into the floppy innards. Shuggart interface specialists around? :o) For me it HAS to emulate the physical drive, and not the OS/formatting of the target. If you have a bit more work to emulate the physical drive, you'll have a universal device. What about a group digging into that? > If I knew anything about PIC design* I'd get to doing some messing around > with it right now... :-) www.mcselec.com - download BASCOM-AVR and get some Atmega32 or Atmega128, you'll have a great surprise of how easy is to use that. > * assuming that a PIC is fast enough; it'll have to read/write to the > floppy interface side at several times the floppy data transfer rate, so > several MHz - then there are program overheads on top of that... (you > could almost do a DMA approach to/from buffer memory actually and have the > CPU relatively slow...) AFAIK, the "mechanicals" of the drive can be separated into two points: - Mechanical control and sensing: track up/down, motor on/off, select head 0/1, index hole, disk change, density select - Logical encoding of MFM data: get raw sector data, output MFM-encoded data The first is a breeze. The second I have no experience but seems easy enough by what I saw on wikipedia. I have a "digital alignment disk" for 3 1/2 720K floppies. Since the data on this disk is know (and have no sector/track encoding, just raw data), I'll try to read and understand that. If someone is willing to help, contact me privately. I'm using AVR microcontrollers and the Bascom compiler. I'm looking for the shuggart manual of the disk interface (ST-406?). Greetz from Brazil Alexandre Souza From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 16:16:35 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:16:35 -0500 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <45788C7C.5090405@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> <457862FF.7000605@feedle.net> <45788C7C.5090405@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12/7/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > > C. Sullivan wrote: > > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> > >> Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / > >> configuration and FTP client software so that I can connect to a > >> remote FTP server from MSDOS? > > > > All you need to know: > > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/2884/dosint.htm > > So, I need a packet driver and a network stack, right? I've found the > Etherlink III DOS config utility, so that's probably the card to go for as > drivers seem readily available. > > Does anyone know if the Trumpet stack (hmm, is it even free?) is mirrored > for > download anywhere? The main Trumpet website is inaccessible (at least from > here - I get 'forbidden' errors, but it may be that my ISPs web proxies > have > screwed up yet again) > > (The geeky side of me's quite looking forward to playing around with this; > I > think the last time I used an Ethernetted DOS machine was back in the > early > 90s :-) You can find ssh and sftp for dos too, if it is a >386 PC. I have used Etherlink 3C509 and it worked well on my 386. vax, 9000 cheers > > Jules > > From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 16:23:36 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:23:36 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <160501c71a55$73c485f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net> <4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk> <45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> <160501c71a55$73c485f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: The easiest way to make a floppy drive replacement, in my opnion, is to make an ISA card and to rely on a DOS program. You get everything this way. You can even get a PC104 board and embed your PC into the floppy drive case, and attach whatever media you come in mind with it. vax, 9000, who gets along well with X86, PC and DOS From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 7 16:26:26 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:26:26 -0700 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:14:16 -0300. <160501c71a55$73c485f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: In article <160501c71a55$73c485f0$f0fea8c0 at alpha>, "Alexandre Souza" writes: > Chalk me on that! But would this kind of chat be offtopic for this list? I don't think it would be off topic, but everyone likes to complain about something. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ken at seefried.com Thu Dec 7 16:40:32 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:40:32 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 40, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: <200612072218.kB7MIA50068001@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612072218.kB7MIA50068001@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061207224032.26315.qmail@seefried.com> From: "Ethan Dicks" > Strictly speaking, DOS is not limiting your signalling speed, > but the ISA bus could be. For 100Mbps ethernet, yes. You can only push a fraction of the bandwidth. > There was one, only one, 100Mbps ISA card I ever > ran across (by 3Com, but I can't remember the model number) 3c515 Might not be the only one, though. According to Dan Kegals Fast Ethernet page (http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~dank/fe/) there's a rumor that Cogent and Olicom had ISA 100TX cards. I've never seen or heard of one in the wild. I distinctly recall there was a 100baseVG ISA card (I had a client who was bad at math who wanted to go VG so they wouldn't have to upgrade to PCI desktops). We all know how that turned out. I've also seen someone put a 100Mbps PCMCIA card in an ISA-PCMCIA bridge, but that's stretching the definition a bit. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 7 16:43:47 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:43:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would it take... Message-ID: <909998.96719.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> to make one of these in discrete logic: (if you don't feel like looking, it's an Apple II IDE/Cflash controller) http://cgi.ebay.com/MicroDrive-IDE-Controller-for-Apple-IIe-IIgs_W0QQitemZ300055639046QQihZ020QQcategoryZ80286QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Just a rough chip count. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 7 17:42:18 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 20:42:18 -0300 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net><4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk> <45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> Message-ID: <161201c71a59$d98370f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> BTW, anyone got the SA-400 and FD-400 techinical manuals? I'm googgling it but nothing useful found... Thanks Alexandre Souza www.tabajara-labs.com.br From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Dec 7 16:51:16 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:51:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <909998.96719.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <909998.96719.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Chris M wrote: > to make one of these in discrete logic: > > (if you don't feel like looking, it's an Apple II > IDE/Cflash controller) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/MicroDrive-IDE-Controller-for-Apple-IIe-IIgs > _W0QQitemZ300055639046QQihZ020QQcategoryZ80286QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > Just a rough chip count. It looks like there are a couple PLAs, some discrete logic, a microcontroller of some sort, and an EPROM. Frankly, I don't think doing discrete logic for something like this is worth the trouble. The card itself seems sufficiently low-tech already. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 7 16:53:20 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:53:20 -0700 Subject: ISA nics (was: cctalk Digest, Vol 40, Issue 15) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:40:32 -0500. <20061207224032.26315.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: Speaking of ISA NICs, I have a boatload if anyone needs some for cost of shipping. ISA and PCI. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 7 16:52:23 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:52:23 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 40, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:40:32 -0500. <20061207224032.26315.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: In article <20061207224032.26315.qmail at seefried.com>, "Ken Seefried" writes: > Might not be the only one, though. According to Dan Kegals Fast Ethernet > page (http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~dank/fe/) there's a rumor that Cogent and > Olicom had ISA 100TX cards. I've never seen or heard of one in the wild. Didn't Intel make ISA 10/100 cards? Or were they PCI only? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 7 16:59:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 14:59:23 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <161201c71a59$d98370f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: , <161201c71a59$d98370f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <45782C4B.9473.33A1B1FF@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2006 at 20:42, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > BTW, anyone got the SA-400 and FD-400 techinical manuals? I'm googgling > it but nothing useful found... Is this what you're looking for? http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/shugart/54102-2_SA400_OEM_Sep78.pdf Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 7 17:02:46 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 15:02:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <561868.27222.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> it doesn't have to be entirely of 7400s or the like, just a design where no *exotic* programming is required. I just wanted an idea. A microcontroller, and whatever else is fine. --- David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Chris M wrote: > > > to make one of these in discrete logic: > > > > (if you don't feel like looking, it's an Apple II > > IDE/Cflash controller) > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/MicroDrive-IDE-Controller-for-Apple-IIe-IIgs > > > _W0QQitemZ300055639046QQihZ020QQcategoryZ80286QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > > > Just a rough chip count. > > It looks like there are a couple PLAs, some discrete > logic, a > microcontroller of some sort, and an EPROM. > Frankly, I don't think doing > discrete logic for something like this is worth the > trouble. The card > itself seems sufficiently low-tech already. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people > normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 17:04:28 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 12:04:28 +1300 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 40, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: <20061207224032.26315.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200612072218.kB7MIA50068001@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20061207224032.26315.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: On 12/8/06, Ken Seefried wrote: > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > Strictly speaking, DOS is not limiting your signalling speed, > > but the ISA bus could be. > > For 100Mbps ethernet, yes. You can only push a fraction of the bandwidth. Indeed. > > There was one, only one, 100Mbps ISA card I ever > > ran across (by 3Com, but I can't remember the model number) > > 3c515 That's the one I remember looking at. Never seen one up close, but I do have the 3Com tech docs at home. > Might not be the only one, though. According to Dan Kegals Fast Ethernet > page (http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~dank/fe/) there's a rumor that Cogent and > Olicom had ISA 100TX cards. I've never seen or heard of one in the wild. Hmm... interesting. New ones on me. > I've also seen someone put a 100Mbps PCMCIA card in an ISA-PCMCIA bridge, > but that's stretching the definition a bit. *slaps forehead* - I'd forgotten about that solution. I have a PS2/e (IBM's "green" 486SLC box w/1 ISA slot) with the quad PCMCIA ISA card (two PCMCIA slots out the front, two out the back). Mine is presently loaded with RedHat 5.3 (it works w/16MB of RAM) and four network cards for use as a software development "faux Cisco PIX" (multiple DMZs, but not enforced security levels). At least two of the four NICs are Xircom 10/100 cards. I think all of the 3Com 10/100 NICs are Cardbus, but there are a few Linux-supported 10/100 16bit PCMCIA NICs (though I'm not as certain about DOS and cardbus services, etc). I've picked up single-slot PCMCIA ISA boards for around $25 at Dayton. Dunno how easy they'd be to find now. -ethan From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Dec 7 14:44:02 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:44:02 -0500 Subject: pdp-8 3 cycle data break? Message-ID: <200612072044.kB7Ki2P1032727@mwave.heeltoe.com> Are there any good *detailed* descriptions about how the 3 cycle data break works on say, a pdp-8/I with an rf08 or df32? I've read 3-4 simple descriptions, but I'd like something that relates - in detail - to the cpu instruction cycles/states (i.e. f0-3,d0-3,e0-3). I'm curious what the exact state machine looks like. I'm also curious if the data break cycles occur as additional cpu states or if they overlap cpu states in any way. I'm resisted diving into schematics mostly due to lazyness (and work), but that may be the next step. I guess I have no seen any good 8/i "principles of operations" either, outside what is said in "Computer Engineering". any pointers/comments appreciated. -brad From jclang at notms.net Thu Dec 7 17:28:29 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:28:29 -0500 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <06120718282900.21876@bell> On Thursday 07 December 2006 12:58, you wrote: > Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / > configuration and FTP client software so that I can connect to a remote FTP > server from MSDOS? > > I don't think I've ever set up such a config from scratch. I can live with > 10Mbps speeds if required (would DOS drivers even drive a card at anything > more anyway?) > > NIC cards I seem to have available: > > Netgear FA310TX (PCI) > HP 88809L (ISA) > 3Com Etherlink III (PCI) > 3Com Etherlink III (ISA) > Asix NV100AM (PCI) > 'Network Everywhere' NC100 (PCI) > 3Com 3C905 (PCI) > > The ISA boards perhaps have the drawback that they're software > configurable, so I have no idea what settings they'll want to use (or which > interface), or how well they'll behave in the new-ish system I need to put > a card in. The PCI boards on the other hand are newer so maybe DOS drivers > don't even exist for them... > > (Etherlink III's were always reliable I seem to recall, but I never did > like the idea of them being software configurable; it was much nicer to > have jumpers on a card and *know* what it was configured as!) > > cheers > > Jules Here's what I use..... Trumpet ABI (not winsock that's different) TCP/IP stack It includes FTP client, telnet and more... D-link ne-2000 clone ISA card and packet driver Tsoft NFS dos 7.0 (aka windows 95 kernel) I use this combination because: it produced the smallest memory foot print (577K free) it will fit on (and boot from) a single floppy it has a documented interface, so I can write code (I had to write my own LPR). The stacks I looked at were: microsoft - serious memory hog novell - won't fit on a floppy and you can't remove the boot disk wattcp - this worked pretty well, but it wasn't a TSR so no ping response without an application running. I have the need to keep a DOS box running to support my prom/gal programmer and a couple of DOS CAD programs. I don't ever intend to buy the same program more than once.... I boot from a 1.4M floppy and NFS mount the "C:" drive. BTW I've also used an INTEL EE/PRO 100 (PCI) with the same setup (different packet driver) and It works just fine. DOS runs pretty good on an 800Mhz. x86. joe lang From feedle at feedle.net Thu Dec 7 17:53:59 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 16:53:59 -0700 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <45788C7C.5090405@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> <457862FF.7000605@feedle.net> <45788C7C.5090405@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4578A997.1090909@feedle.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > C. Sullivan wrote: >> Jules Richardson wrote: >>> >>> Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / >>> configuration and FTP client software so that I can connect to a >>> remote FTP server from MSDOS? >> >> All you need to know: >> http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/2884/dosint.htm > > So, I need a packet driver and a network stack, right? I've found the > Etherlink III DOS config utility, so that's probably the card to go > for as drivers seem readily available. If I remember properly, you should be able to find a 'packet driver' on the crynwr site for your card. That, plus a packet-driver compatible program, and you're good to go. > > Does anyone know if the Trumpet stack (hmm, is it even free?) is > mirrored for download anywhere? The main Trumpet website is > inaccessible (at least from here - I get 'forbidden' errors, but it > may be that my ISPs web proxies have screwed up yet again) Don't know about trumpet, but I think the CUTCP package from Rutgers has everything you need once you have a packet driver from Crynwr, if I remember right. http://opcenter.cites.uiuc.edu/nas/nash/cutcp/cutcp.html has pointers. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 7 17:42:05 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 16:42:05 -0700 Subject: pdp-8 3 cycle data break? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:44:02 -0500. <200612072044.kB7Ki2P1032727@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: In article <200612072044.kB7Ki2P1032727 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, Brad Parker writes: > any pointers/comments appreciated. Maybe something in here? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Dec 7 18:11:03 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:11:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: Need any "old" tape media? In-Reply-To: <200612071622.22234.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200612071622.22234.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I've got a stack of 8mm (doesn't mention a size, a mix of Verbatim data > tapes, and Sony and Fuji video tapes), 4mm DDS1 (both 60M and 90M), and > DLT3 tapes at work which we're getting set to throw away... the DDS/8mm > tapes have some data on them, and will be degaussed... the DLT3's are > unused, from several years ago. Won't degaussing DDS tapes wipe the factory written sync stuff and render the tapes worthless? (That was my experience with some years ago anyway...) -Toth From lee at geekdot.com Thu Dec 7 18:19:34 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 01:19:34 +0100 (CET) Subject: What would it take... Message-ID: <4355.86.144.143.49.1165537174.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > to make one of these in discrete logic: > (if you don't feel like looking, it's an Apple II > IDE/Cflash controller) > Just a rough chip count. Two 8 bit buffers, two 8 bit latches and one GAL20V8 or similar. The GAL isn't essential but saves four or more packages to do the address decoding. Lee. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Dec 7 18:28:16 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:28:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / > configuration and FTP client software so that I can connect to a remote > FTP server from MSDOS? > > I don't think I've ever set up such a config from scratch. I can live > with 10Mbps speeds if required (would DOS drivers even drive a card at > anything more anyway?) > > NIC cards I seem to have available: > > Netgear FA310TX (PCI) > HP 88809L (ISA) > 3Com Etherlink III (PCI) > 3Com Etherlink III (ISA) > Asix NV100AM (PCI) > 'Network Everywhere' NC100 (PCI) > 3Com 3C905 (PCI) > > The ISA boards perhaps have the drawback that they're software > configurable, so I have no idea what settings they'll want to use (or > which interface), or how well they'll behave in the new-ish system I > need to put a card in. The PCI boards on the other hand are newer so > maybe DOS drivers don't even exist for them... > > (Etherlink III's were always reliable I seem to recall, but I never did > like the idea of them being software configurable; it was much nicer to > have jumpers on a card and *know* what it was configured as!) All of the 3Com cards are software configurable. The utilities and drivers are even available on 3Com's FTP site :) 3Com did tend to support their cards pretty well, and I never had any problems getting different cards to work under dos with a packet driver. The 3C905 is the faster of the 3Com cards you have there, as it supports 100mb. The Etherlink XL 3C900, etc also tended to work pretty well, though they are limited to 10mb. The Etherlink III series 3C509, 3C509B are also very well, supported, though again limited to 10mb. I'd choose a 509B over the original 509 if you need to go with an ISA card though, as it has FIFO support. Some of my personal favorite cards were the so-called NE2500 cards (not NE2000). The chips were made by AMD and their design was a lot more refined than the original NE2000. They weren't as well supported as the generic NE2000 though. All the NE2500 compatible cards I used also made use of a software configuration utility much like the 3Com cards do. -Toth From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 7 18:32:57 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 16:32:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <4355.86.144.143.49.1165537174.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <102934.53289.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lee Davison wrote: > > to make one of these in discrete logic: > > > (if you don't feel like looking, it's an Apple II > > IDE/Cflash controller) > > > Just a rough chip count. > > Two 8 bit buffers, two 8 bit latches and one GAL20V8 > or similar. > The GAL isn't essential but saves four or more > packages to do the > address decoding. So 10 discrete ic's. Why all the fuss then? And why bother with the GAL at all if it only saves 4 chips? I really have to wonder why these developers go to all the trouble they do if that's all it takes (I would have guessed at least 20). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Dec 7 18:35:49 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:35:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2006, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/8/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I can live with 10Mbps speeds if required (would DOS drivers even drive >> a card at anything more anyway?) > > Strictly speaking, DOS is not limiting your signalling speed, but the > ISA bus could be. There was one, only one, 100Mbps ISA card I ever ran > across (by 3Com, but I can't remember the model number) - it had a PCI > Ethernet chip and ISA<->PCI bridge chip, giving it, essentially, an > onboard PCI bus. I considered supporting it with the GG2 Bus+, but I > couldn't find one at the time for less than a couple hundred bucks and > figured my customers wouldn't be able to, either. AFAIK, the only 100mb ISA card 3Com released was the 3C515. Its an odd little card when compared to the other cards 3Com released. The driver really doesn't share much in common with the others either. They never really caught on, mainly due to how common the PCI bus became and because of the card's high cost. That said, they do still turn up in the surplus market from time to time, but they aren't nearly as well supported as the Etherlink III or Etherlink XL series. I can't say I'd recommend them for anything mission critical, but they could be good to play with. I think I gave away the only two I had when I gave away the programming manual I had for them, though I should probably find some more to work with under *BSD. 3Com is *very* good about providing programming manuals if you ask nicely too :) -Toth From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 19:04:50 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 14:04:50 +1300 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <102934.53289.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4355.86.144.143.49.1165537174.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> <102934.53289.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 12/8/06, Chris M wrote: > --- Lee Davison wrote: > > Two 8 bit buffers, two 8 bit latches and one GAL20V8 > > or similar. > > The GAL isn't essential but saves four or more > > packages to do the address decoding. Note the "or more" here... it's not hard to imagine reasonable situations where one GAL saves 6 or 8 popcorn TTL parts, especially where you start using latched outputs. > So 10 discrete ic's. Why all the fuss then? And why > bother with the GAL at all if it only saves 4 chips? > I really have to wonder why these developers go to > all the trouble they do if that's all it takes (I > would have guessed at least 20). There are two major reasons why a hardware developer would use a GAL... 1) board space/interconnections are "expensive" When one is hand-wiring a project, replacing 4 16-20 pin parts with a single 18 or 20 pin part, that's a significant savings of effort. Equally if one is trying to fit in a small space, 4 DIPs is a huge amount of room these days (and there are PLCC GALs, allowing a lot of DIP circuity to fit in one cm^2). 2) GALs are easy to change Practically speaking, folks don't want to rewire a board to change an address setting, so you end up with address comparators, jumpers, etc. With a GAL, for infrequent changes (once or twice over the life of the product, not once or twice per year), you can arrange the logic so that there are no jumpers, but the GAL still does internal address compares, etc. The Spare Time Gizmos Elf2000 does this - if you don't like what devices are selected by which combination of N-lines, etc., take the (provided) GAL source, change it, recompile it with WinCUPL, then burn a GAL to your liking. They are re-usable, so you don't even have to buy a spare unless you'd like to do a quick swap back. The downside, of course, is that as the hobbyist-end-user, you are somewhat out in the cold if you don't own a GAL programmer. They can easily run to hundreds of dollars for basic ones, and, unlike an old 4K EPROM, they are not trivial to make programmers for from scratch. I have an older GAL programmer, so I don't mind GAL-based designs. The only thing that's eluded me lately is programming "C rev" Lattice GAL22V10s. I've had no problems with burning older Lattice GALs or other sizes of new Lattice GALs, so it's been an inconvenience, but not a show stopper. OTOH, I'm willing to look around for a newer programmer and consider an upgrade. I'm not going to give up GALs entirely, so I'll find some solution when the need arises. Others (those not already posessing GAL programmers) might find the jump to be too expensive to justify. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 7 18:32:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 00:32:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <4576A5E7.60607@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Dec 6, 6 11:13:43 am Message-ID: > As an aside, if I've got 110v equipment and 240v mains, would a yellow > transformer be suitable for running it? I'd assume that most kit will > be happy enough with a centre-tapped supply but I don't know if I want > to risk it... AFAIK no equipment, either US or European can assume that one side of the mains is grounds (and safe to touch). Therefore a centre-tapped (to ground) supply should be fine. One of my Tektronix instruemnts shows different wiring for centre-tapped-to-ground and one-side-grounded mains (I think only for 230V mains), but this is to reduce noise pickup, not safety, and AFAIK the instrument works if you get this wrong (it just has a little (and I mean little) more noise on the trace). I have a cable here with a 110V BS4343 (yellow) plug on one end and a US mains socket on the other. I use it for running US mains chargers/adapters off a power tool transformer. OK, I only use it for testing (to measure the output voltage/characteristics of the US adapter so I can make a UK mains equivalent, but I've never had any problems running said US adapters off the power tool transformer. [For those who wonder what on earth I am talking about, portable industrial power tools -- electric drills, for example -- in the UK are 110V devices. They're run off a step-down isolating transformer, the secondary of which is centre-tapped with the tap connected to ground. The idea is that if the insulation fails, or you cut through the cable, or, then the maximu voltage you'll get if you touch one bit of metal is 55V (one half of the transformer output, returning to ground through you). This voltage is unlikely to prove fatal.] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 7 18:36:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 00:36:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Help needed in identifying an early IC In-Reply-To: <000001c719b0$cbc21060$176fa8c0@obie> from "Jack Rubin" at Dec 6, 6 09:35:52 pm Message-ID: > > I've come across a few old ICs and haven't been able to find out much > about them - lots of places on the 'net are willing to sell them but I > couldn't find a data sheet - only one clue that they _might_ be dual > op-amps. They are small cans (TO-??) with eight leads protruding from > the bottom, marked SG 1458T with a 1976 date code. Any help identifying > them would be appreciated. Kind of hoping they're really some sort of > shift register ... Alas I think they're just plain 1458 dual op-amps. A very common device (probably more common in an 8 pin DIP). -tony From lee at geekdot.com Thu Dec 7 19:10:26 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 02:10:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: What would it take... Message-ID: <4655.86.144.143.49.1165540226.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > The downside, of course, is that as the hobbyist-end-user, you are > somewhat out in the cold if you don't own a GAL programmer. They can > easily run to hundreds of dollars for basic ones, and, unlike an old > 4K EPROM, they are not trivial to make programmers for from scratch. There are no excuses .. http://www.geocities.com/mwinterhoff/galblast.htm Lee. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 7 19:13:59 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:13:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <847842.70867.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> that's all relevant of course, if it's a big production house, producing thousand or millions of boards. But the outifits that make these retro-fits (LOL LOL no pun intended) are done in a garage more then likely. So that being said, just use individual ic's. Or perhaps it's alot about protecting their investment. But I would also have to say a considerable amount of development time goes into designing something that way. Why doesn't someone just draw up PLANS to build this stuff, and sell that? I'd buy it for sure (well, if it was for something groovy I owned...). --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/8/06, Chris M wrote: > > --- Lee Davison wrote: > > > Two 8 bit buffers, two 8 bit latches and one > GAL20V8 > > > or similar. > > > The GAL isn't essential but saves four or more > > > packages to do the address decoding. > > Note the "or more" here... it's not hard to imagine > reasonable > situations where one GAL saves 6 or 8 popcorn TTL > parts, especially > where you start using latched outputs. > > > So 10 discrete ic's. Why all the fuss then? And > why > > bother with the GAL at all if it only saves 4 > chips? > > I really have to wonder why these developers go > to > > all the trouble they do if that's all it takes (I > > would have guessed at least 20). > > There are two major reasons why a hardware developer > would use a GAL... > > 1) board space/interconnections are "expensive" > > When one is hand-wiring a project, replacing 4 16-20 > pin parts with a > single 18 or 20 pin part, that's a significant > savings of effort. > Equally if one is trying to fit in a small space, 4 > DIPs is a huge > amount of room these days (and there are PLCC GALs, > allowing a lot of > DIP circuity to fit in one cm^2). > > 2) GALs are easy to change > > Practically speaking, folks don't want to rewire a > board to change an > address setting, so you end up with address > comparators, jumpers, etc. > With a GAL, for infrequent changes (once or twice > over the life of > the product, not once or twice per year), you can > arrange the logic so > that there are no jumpers, but the GAL still does > internal address > compares, etc. The Spare Time Gizmos Elf2000 does > this - if you don't > like what devices are selected by which combination > of N-lines, etc., > take the (provided) GAL source, change it, recompile > it with WinCUPL, > then burn a GAL to your liking. They are re-usable, > so you don't even > have to buy a spare unless you'd like to do a quick > swap back. > > The downside, of course, is that as the > hobbyist-end-user, you are > somewhat out in the cold if you don't own a GAL > programmer. They can > easily run to hundreds of dollars for basic ones, > and, unlike an old > 4K EPROM, they are not trivial to make programmers > for from scratch. > > I have an older GAL programmer, so I don't mind > GAL-based designs. > The only thing that's eluded me lately is > programming "C rev" Lattice > GAL22V10s. I've had no problems with burning older > Lattice GALs or > other sizes of new Lattice GALs, so it's been an > inconvenience, but > not a show stopper. OTOH, I'm willing to look > around for a newer > programmer and consider an upgrade. I'm not going > to give up GALs > entirely, so I'll find some solution when the need > arises. Others > (those not already posessing GAL programmers) might > find the jump to > be too expensive to justify. > > > -ethan > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 19:16:57 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 14:16:57 +1300 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <4655.86.144.143.49.1165540226.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <4655.86.144.143.49.1165540226.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: On 12/8/06, Lee Davison wrote: > > The downside, of course, is that as the hobbyist-end-user, you are > > somewhat out in the cold if you don't own a GAL programmer. They can > > easily run to hundreds of dollars for basic ones, and, unlike an old > > 4K EPROM, they are not trivial to make programmers for from scratch. > > There are no excuses .. http://www.geocities.com/mwinterhoff/galblast.htm Very nice. I may have to look into that as a replacement for my ancient UP600a. I'd personally look into taking the path of an external bench +24VDC supply, but I can see how it'd be handy to have it all self-contained. Has anyone on the list built that one? -ethan From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Dec 7 19:20:20 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:20:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <847842.70867.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <847842.70867.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Chris M wrote: > Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:13:59 -0800 (PST) > From: Chris M > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: What would it take... > > that's all relevant of course, if it's a big > production house, producing thousand or millions of > boards. But the outifits that make these retro-fits > (LOL LOL no pun intended) are done in a garage more > then likely. So that being said, just use individual > ic's. Or perhaps it's alot about protecting their > investment. But I would also have to say a > considerable amount of development time goes into > designing something that way. > Why doesn't someone just draw up PLANS to build this > stuff, and sell that? I'd buy it for sure (well, if it > was for something groovy I owned...). Well even if you only make 50, a GAL may save a lot of after the fact PCB editing with an X-acto knife... Also a CPLD (maybe a 9536XL) is about as cheap as a GAL now ($1.00 or so), much more capable, and programmable with nothing but a parallel port (JEDEC ISP) > > --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On 12/8/06, Chris M wrote: >>> --- Lee Davison wrote: >>>> Two 8 bit buffers, two 8 bit latches and one >> GAL20V8 >>>> or similar. >>>> The GAL isn't essential but saves four or more >>>> packages to do the address decoding. >> >> Note the "or more" here... it's not hard to imagine >> reasonable >> situations where one GAL saves 6 or 8 popcorn TTL >> parts, especially >> where you start using latched outputs. >> >>> So 10 discrete ic's. Why all the fuss then? And >> why >>> bother with the GAL at all if it only saves 4 >> chips? >>> I really have to wonder why these developers go >> to >>> all the trouble they do if that's all it takes (I >>> would have guessed at least 20). >> >> There are two major reasons why a hardware developer >> would use a GAL... >> >> 1) board space/interconnections are "expensive" >> >> When one is hand-wiring a project, replacing 4 16-20 >> pin parts with a >> single 18 or 20 pin part, that's a significant >> savings of effort. >> Equally if one is trying to fit in a small space, 4 >> DIPs is a huge >> amount of room these days (and there are PLCC GALs, >> allowing a lot of >> DIP circuity to fit in one cm^2). >> >> 2) GALs are easy to change >> >> Practically speaking, folks don't want to rewire a >> board to change an >> address setting, so you end up with address >> comparators, jumpers, etc. >> With a GAL, for infrequent changes (once or twice >> over the life of >> the product, not once or twice per year), you can >> arrange the logic so >> that there are no jumpers, but the GAL still does >> internal address >> compares, etc. The Spare Time Gizmos Elf2000 does >> this - if you don't >> like what devices are selected by which combination >> of N-lines, etc., >> take the (provided) GAL source, change it, recompile >> it with WinCUPL, >> then burn a GAL to your liking. They are re-usable, >> so you don't even >> have to buy a spare unless you'd like to do a quick >> swap back. >> >> The downside, of course, is that as the >> hobbyist-end-user, you are >> somewhat out in the cold if you don't own a GAL >> programmer. They can >> easily run to hundreds of dollars for basic ones, >> and, unlike an old >> 4K EPROM, they are not trivial to make programmers >> for from scratch. >> >> I have an older GAL programmer, so I don't mind >> GAL-based designs. >> The only thing that's eluded me lately is >> programming "C rev" Lattice >> GAL22V10s. I've had no problems with burning older >> Lattice GALs or >> other sizes of new Lattice GALs, so it's been an >> inconvenience, but >> not a show stopper. OTOH, I'm willing to look >> around for a newer >> programmer and consider an upgrade. I'm not going >> to give up GALs >> entirely, so I'll find some solution when the need >> arises. Others >> (those not already posessing GAL programmers) might >> find the jump to >> be too expensive to justify. >> >> >> -ethan >> > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Music Unlimited > Access over 1 million songs. > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 7 19:24:10 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:24:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061208012410.50086.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Chris M wrote: > > > Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:13:59 -0800 (PST) > > From: Chris M > > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" > > > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts" > > Subject: Re: What would it take... > > > > that's all relevant of course, if it's a big > > production house, producing thousand or millions > of > > boards. But the outifits that make these > retro-fits > > (LOL LOL no pun intended) are done in a garage > more > > then likely. So that being said, just use > individual > > ic's. Or perhaps it's alot about protecting their > > investment. But I would also have to say a > > considerable amount of development time goes into > > designing something that way. > > Why doesn't someone just draw up PLANS to build > this > > stuff, and sell that? I'd buy it for sure (well, > if it > > was for something groovy I owned...). > > Well even if you only make 50, a GAL may save a lot > of after the fact PCB > editing with an X-acto knife... Yeah but X-actos are cheap. And I got them already. A GAL programmer is going to take some doing. I hope that homebrewed one doesn't require a GAL, cuz then I'm out in the cold. > Also a CPLD (maybe a 9536XL) is about as cheap as a > GAL now ($1.00 or so), > much more capable, and programmable with nothing but > a parallel port (JEDEC > ISP) Well not just the parallel port I'm sure. Hope someone posts the url that has plans for that... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 7 19:39:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:39:50 -0800 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: References: <4576A5E7.60607@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Dec 6, 6 11:13:43 am, Message-ID: <457851E6.22424.343494F9@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 0:32, Tony Duell wrote: > AFAIK no equipment, either US or European can assume that one side of the > mains is grounds (and safe to touch). I own a Toshiba microwave oven (with 3-prong grounding plug) that will not power up if the mains socket is wired up with the feed reversed. Drove me crazy the first time I tried to use it until I discovered that the idiot who wired the kitchen receptacles swapped black and white at one socket in the string. The same refusal to work may be true of some ground-fault interrupter receptacles (i.e., they always stay "tripped" if wired backwards). The local Cheap Chinese tool place regularly has a special on receptacle testers that make sure that the wide blade in the receptacle is at ground potential. > [For those who wonder what on earth I am talking about, portable > industrial power tools -- electric drills, for example -- in the UK are > 110V devices. At what level does this not hold true? For example, I've got a nice big router (portable) that draws a full 15 amps at 120v at startup. That would be a pretty large transformer. Nowadays, however, most portable tools are simply constructed as "double insulated". Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 7 19:42:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:42:50 -0800 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: References: <847842.70867.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <4578529A.29670.343750B1@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2006 at 17:20, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Also a CPLD (maybe a 9536XL) is about as cheap as a GAL now ($1.00 or so), > much more capable, and programmable with nothing but a parallel port (JEDEC > ISP) On a completely tangential subject, does any one know of some freely downloadable software for working with Altera 7000S CPLDs? I've got a few of them that I'd like to use, but they're not worth paying the license fee for the Altera software. Cheers, Chuck From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Dec 7 20:10:26 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:10:26 -0800 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: <457743C7.8030407@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20061208021026.GA7307@motherbrain.retronet.net> On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 07:20:05PM +0000, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 6/12/06 22:27, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: > > >> Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up > >> the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I > >> wrote in the 1980's...... > > > > What actually fails in them? > > Head actuator I think; it powers up and spins up, doesn't sound headcrashed > but I can't hear or feel the heads move..... Definitely check for stiction, it's a very common problem on RD53s. If the data on them is worth saving, you can probably make a clean enough environment in your home or office to open up the drive assembly and nudge the head loose from the sticky rubber that it's parked against. You can probably get at least one good read out of it without it crashing (I know folks who've opened up their RD53s, reassembled them, and run them successfully for months afterward. YMMV!) -Seth From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Dec 7 20:17:40 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:17:40 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <06120718282900.21876@bell> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> <06120718282900.21876@bell> Message-ID: <4578CB44.6060106@brutman.com> A good alternative that I haven't seen mentioned is NCSA Telnet. NCSA Telnet not only is a very good telnet client, but it also has a built in FTP server. It will work with a packet driver, and there is also a version that has support for popular network cards built-in directly so that a packet driver is not necessary. The performance of FTP transfers is very good. NCSA doesn't give you a stack that you can use for your own apps. Source code is available. On a slightly related note, I've been working on my own TCP/IP for small IBM PC class machines for about a year. It's in C using Borland Turbo C++ 3.0 for DOS. It supports ARP, UDP and TCP at the moment - no ICMP yet. Performance compared to other stacks is *very* good: Test machine: IBM PC XT with original 10MB hard disk, 3Com 3C503 NIC File send rate: 26.5KB/sec File receive rate: 24.6KB/sec Memory footprint varies .. it depends on how much buffering you want in your app and at the packet level. Code is about 50KB with all of the debug options and messages compiled in. Mike From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Dec 7 20:14:32 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:14:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <20061208012410.50086.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061208012410.50086.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > >> Also a CPLD (maybe a 9536XL) is about as cheap as a >> GAL now ($1.00 or so), >> much more capable, and programmable with nothing but >> a parallel port (JEDEC >> ISP) > > Well not just the parallel port I'm sure. Hope > someone posts the url that has plans for that... > Well yes, pretty much just a parallel port: TDI to DUT TDO from DUT TCLK to DUT TMS to DUR 4 signals, all TTL level, no special timing... > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Cheap talk? > Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > http://voice.yahoo.com > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From wizard at voyager.net Thu Dec 7 20:24:06 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 21:24:06 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> <136201c719df$0d048570$f0fea8c0@alpha> <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1165544646.32029.249.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2006-12-07 at 10:11 -0600, Jay West wrote: > I would think the best interface to a host is serial (from a common > denominator standpoint), and then provide different software on each host to > make it appear as a drive of the chosen type. Yes... with storage of USB stick or CF card, or whatever. (Those were my two choices.) I have found the discussion of the possibilities and approaches to be most intriguing. To tell the truth, I had not thought at all about recording the flux from diskettes... Anyway, diskettes are going the way of the dodo. I have several older machines, and spent a good part of the last two days trying, unsuccessfully, to find 5-1/4 inch diskettes for sale. They simply are not carried any more. And, I live in the heart of a truly major retail center -- I've been in EVERY major computer and electronics store, and many of the minor ones in the last 48 hours. That adds a certain urgency to the project. Diskettes have a limited lifespan, and, without replacement media, it is not possible to format new disks and move information off aging media to preserve it. > In other words, let the same device that can act as an RL02 on an DEC 11/20 > also act as a 7900A on an HP 2100. I'd sure be willing to attempt finding > time to write the HP specific end :) Yeah, THAT was the idea... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 7 16:12:37 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 22:12:37 +0000 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <45787011.1050302@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 7/12/06 19:48, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: > And if that doesn't work... > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glRMdVc_6cQ > > That drive has burnt its last coaster. Mmmm squishy. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From wizard at voyager.net Thu Dec 7 21:03:34 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 22:03:34 -0500 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165547014.32029.256.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 00:32 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > [For those who wonder what on earth I am talking about, portable > industrial power tools -- electric drills, for example -- in the UK are > 110V devices. They're run off a step-down isolating transformer, the > secondary of which is centre-tapped with the tap connected to ground. The > idea is that if the insulation fails, or you cut through the cable, or, > then the maximu voltage you'll get if you touch one bit of metal is 55V > (one half of the transformer output, returning to ground through you). > This voltage is unlikely to prove fatal.] Interestingly, that is how U.S. Navy power on-board ships works, too. (Well, as of 25 years ago... *SIGH*) Two out-of-phase 60 volt live sides. U.S. standard house wiring is, however, three wire: Live, Neutral, and Ground at 120 volts, 60 Hz. Some equipment we used on the ship was designed for land-based labs, and case-grounded, which meant that when you plugged them in, you were shorting out half the mains. Yikes. We had isolation transformers for THAT equipment which were ungrounded. Installing new equipment was even more exciting there than most places. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Dec 7 22:24:04 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 23:24:04 -0500 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4578E8E4.3020804@hawkmountain.net> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 6/12/06 22:27, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: > > >>> Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up >>> the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I >>> wrote in the 1980's...... >>> >> What actually fails in them? >> > > Head actuator I think; it powers up and spins up, doesn't sound headcrashed > but I can't hear or feel the heads move..... > > I personally had one fail (1325) that had to do with locating track 0 (which appears to be initially probed for by a full stroke into a rubber bumper). I think the rubber changes or becomes out of adjustment with age... in my case I opened the HDA (felt I had nothing to lose at that point), and tweaked the position by around 1 thousandth of an inch... the drive then came ready every time and worked fine. I've also heard of the spindle motor brake dragging not allowing the drive to get up to full speed rotation... and that can be adjusted w/o opening the HDA... it is on the bottom under the circuit board. -- Curt From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Dec 7 22:41:26 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 23:41:26 -0500 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <06120718282900.21876@bell> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> <06120718282900.21876@bell> Message-ID: <4578ECF6.9010305@hawkmountain.net> joseph c lang wrote: > On Thursday 07 December 2006 12:58, you wrote: > >> Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / >> configuration and FTP client software so that I can connect to a remote FTP >> server from MSDOS? >> >> I don't think I've ever set up such a config from scratch. I can live with >> 10Mbps speeds if required (would DOS drivers even drive a card at anything >> more anyway?) >> >> NIC cards I seem to have available: >> >> Netgear FA310TX (PCI) >> HP 88809L (ISA) >> 3Com Etherlink III (PCI) >> 3Com Etherlink III (ISA) >> Asix NV100AM (PCI) >> 'Network Everywhere' NC100 (PCI) >> 3Com 3C905 (PCI) >> >> The ISA boards perhaps have the drawback that they're software >> configurable, so I have no idea what settings they'll want to use (or which >> interface), or how well they'll behave in the new-ish system I need to put >> a card in. The PCI boards on the other hand are newer so maybe DOS drivers >> don't even exist for them... >> >> (Etherlink III's were always reliable I seem to recall, but I never did >> like the idea of them being software configurable; it was much nicer to >> have jumpers on a card and *know* what it was configured as!) >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> > > Here's what I use..... > > Trumpet ABI (not winsock that's different) TCP/IP stack > It includes FTP client, telnet and more... > D-link ne-2000 clone ISA card and packet driver > Tsoft NFS > dos 7.0 (aka windows 95 kernel) > Another option... though not 'free' (from vendor) is Sun's PC NFS. It works pretty nicely... provided you can find a copy. I'm running either version 4 or 5 on a 386SX for my ISA based EPROM programmer. I am using a hard drive however. Not sure you could condense PCNFS to one boot floppy... but I haven't looked at it in so long, you might be able to. > I use this combination because: > it produced the smallest memory foot print (577K free) > it will fit on (and boot from) a single floppy > it has a documented interface, so I can write code > (I had to write my own LPR). > > The stacks I looked at were: > microsoft - serious memory hog > novell - won't fit on a floppy and you can't remove the boot disk > wattcp - this worked pretty well, but it wasn't a TSR so no ping response > without an application running. > > I have the need to keep a DOS box running to support my prom/gal programmer > and a couple of DOS CAD programs. I don't ever intend to buy the same > program more than once.... > > I boot from a 1.4M floppy and NFS mount the "C:" drive. > > BTW I've also used an INTEL EE/PRO 100 (PCI) with the same setup (different > packet driver) and It works just fine. DOS runs pretty good on an 800Mhz. > x86. > > joe lang > > -- Curt From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Dec 7 22:57:10 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 23:57:10 -0500 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <20061208021026.GA7307@motherbrain.retronet.net> References: <457743C7.8030407@gjcp.net> <20061208021026.GA7307@motherbrain.retronet.net> Message-ID: <4578F0A6.1060300@hawkmountain.net> Seth J. Morabito wrote: > On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 07:20:05PM +0000, Adrian Graham wrote: > >> On 6/12/06 22:27, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: >> >> >>>> Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up >>>> the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I >>>> wrote in the 1980's...... >>>> >>> What actually fails in them? >>> >> Head actuator I think; it powers up and spins up, doesn't sound headcrashed >> but I can't hear or feel the heads move..... >> > > Definitely check for stiction, it's a very common problem on RD53s. If > the data on them is worth saving, you can probably make a clean enough > environment in your home or office to open up the drive assembly and > nudge the head loose from the sticky rubber that it's parked against. > You can probably get at least one good read out of it without it > crashing (I know folks who've opened up their RD53s, reassembled them, > and run them successfully for months afterward. YMMV!) > Stiction, as I've eperienced it (Quantum 100Meg drives as used in Suns), keeps the drive motor from spinning up the disk (because the heads are stuck to the disk). His drive spins up... he just doesn't hear the heads move... which would lead me to believe: 1. The problem I've seen with the rubber bumper out of adjustment 2. rubber bumper has gone sticky... and the heads can't move off of it (in which case it could be cured like head/platter stiction) 3. failure of PCB to operate head actuator voice coil... this would require a replacement drive PCB. -- Curt > -Seth > From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Dec 7 23:00:28 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 00:00:28 -0500 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <20061208021026.GA7307@motherbrain.retronet.net> References: <457743C7.8030407@gjcp.net> <20061208021026.GA7307@motherbrain.retronet.net> Message-ID: <4578F16C.5090105@hawkmountain.net> Seth J. Morabito wrote: > On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 07:20:05PM +0000, Adrian Graham wrote: > >> On 6/12/06 22:27, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: >> >> >>>> Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up >>>> the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I >>>> wrote in the 1980's...... >>>> >>> What actually fails in them? >>> >> Head actuator I think; it powers up and spins up, doesn't sound headcrashed >> but I can't hear or feel the heads move..... >> > > Definitely check for stiction, it's a very common problem on RD53s. If > the data on them is worth saving, you can probably make a clean enough > environment in your home or office to open up the drive assembly and > nudge the head loose from the sticky rubber that it's parked against. > You can probably get at least one good read out of it without it > crashing (I know folks who've opened up their RD53s, reassembled them, > and run them successfully for months afterward. YMMV!) > > gah... I should have read beyond 'check for stiction'... the sticktion you describe is what I laid out in option 2... oops... its late... shouldn't be reading e-mail... so I didn't read beyond the the first line before commenting... doh ! The one drive I fixed it wasn't sticking to it (physically)... but the drive was holding the heads against it hard electrically (felt stuck with drive on). I think it holds hard against this looking for track 0... then fine ajusts for track 0 center.... if that bumper changes geometry with age, or gets moved over time... then it can't get a read on track 0.... hence why adjusting it by a thousandth if an inch in my case got the drive working nicely.... -- Curt -- Curt > -Seth > From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 00:59:47 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 01:59:47 -0500 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <4578A997.1090909@feedle.net> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> <457862FF.7000605@feedle.net> <45788C7C.5090405@yahoo.co.uk> <4578A997.1090909@feedle.net> Message-ID: <45790D63.1060802@gmail.com> C. Sullivan wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> C. Sullivan wrote: >>> Jules Richardson wrote: >>>> >>>> Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / >>>> configuration and FTP client software so that I can connect to a >>>> remote FTP server from MSDOS? >>> >>> All you need to know: >>> http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/2884/dosint.htm >> >> So, I need a packet driver and a network stack, right? I've found the >> Etherlink III DOS config utility, so that's probably the card to go >> for as drivers seem readily available. > > If I remember properly, you should be able to find a 'packet driver' on > the crynwr site for your card. That, plus a packet-driver compatible > program, and you're good to go. I seem to remember that some of the DOS TCP/IP stacks worked fine with an NDIS driver designed for use with Netware for DOS, but I might be remembering incorrectly. Peace... Sridhar From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Dec 8 01:04:16 2006 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 23:04:16 -0800 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: (legalize@xmission.com's message of "Mon\, 04 Dec 2006 14\:23\:09 -0700") References: Message-ID: <200612080704.kB874Gpc095134@lots.reanimators.org> Richard wrote: > I was wondering if things like copies of Datamation or other now > defunct periodicals might show up in that sort of sale. Today's fresh arrivals at a Friends of the Library organization to the north of Sillycon Valley include: - some Dr. Dobb's Journal from 1994 and 1996 - MSDN Magazine, Nov 2001 ("Windows XP is here") - Teradata review, Summer 1999 - Software Development, covering the end of 1997 to the beginning of 2002 with gaps - Java Developer's Journal, a couple from 1999 and one from 2001 - WebSphere Advisor, June 2003 - Bea WebLogic Developer's Journal, four or five across 2001-2004 - JavaPro, some from 2000, some from 2001, one from 2004 - PCPhoto, Oct 2000 - Silicon Valley TechWeek, a couple from May 2000 - Paradox Informant, May 1995 (three copies though) Blah. I'm sending the lot to the bargain room ($0.10/ea I think). This is perhaps unfortunately typical. I did look through the whole box, just in case there was an Altair issue of Poptronics, or some old 1960s Datamation, but no. (It wasn't likely.) If you want to get some idea of what's going to be on the main sale room shelves for Saturday's sale, look at . Those pictures were taken on Sunday. I've put some more stuff out since then. -Frank McConnell (yeah, I'm the guy who does the computer section, and I'm there now) From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Dec 7 16:45:40 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 22:45:40 +0000 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <909998.96719.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <909998.96719.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45789994.8080709@gjcp.net> Chris M wrote: > to make one of these in discrete logic: > > (if you don't feel like looking, it's an Apple II > IDE/Cflash controller) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/MicroDrive-IDE-Controller-for-Apple-IIe-IIgs_W0QQitemZ300055639046QQihZ020QQcategoryZ80286QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > Just a rough chip count. Assuming normal discrete logic? About three. Gordon. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Dec 7 19:28:22 2006 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 01:28:22 +0000 Subject: [rescue] Need any "old" tape media? In-Reply-To: <200612071622.22234.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200612071622.22234.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 7 Dec 2006, at 21:22, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I've got a stack of 8mm (doesn't mention a size, a mix of Verbatim > data > tapes, and Sony and Fuji video tapes), 4mm DDS1 (both 60M and 90M), > and > DLT3 tapes at work which we're getting set to throw away... the DDS/ > 8mm > tapes have some data on them, and will be degaussed... the DLT3's are > unused, from several years ago. I've also got about 50 QIC and 60 DDS tapes in the UK that I want shot of. I'd prefer to get a few beer tokens for them, but if the best offer is to haul them away, I'll probably take it... From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Dec 8 02:37:15 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 05:37:15 -0300 Subject: What would it take... References: <909998.96719.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <176b01c71aa4$1e449bc0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > to make one of these in discrete logic: > (if you don't feel like looking, it's an Apple II > IDE/Cflash controller) > http://cgi.ebay.com/MicroDrive-IDE-Controller-for-Apple-IIe-IIgs_W0QQitemZ300055639046QQihZ020QQcategoryZ80286QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem This is not discrete logic, there is at least one GAL there I can see in the photo! :oP From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Dec 8 02:40:44 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 05:40:44 -0300 Subject: What would it take... References: <847842.70867.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com>, <4578529A.29670.343750B1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <17b901c71aa4$b20f3bd0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > On a completely tangential subject, does any one know of some freely > downloadable software for working with Altera 7000S CPLDs? I've got > a few of them that I'd like to use, but they're not worth paying the > license fee for the Altera software. The altera software is free, only the foundation (more advanced but you can live without that) is paid From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Dec 8 02:37:48 2006 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 00:37:48 -0800 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <45790D63.1060802@gmail.com> (Sridhar Ayengar's message of "Fri\, 08 Dec 2006 01\:59\:47 -0500") References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> <457862FF.7000605@feedle.net> <45788C7C.5090405@yahoo.co.uk> <4578A997.1090909@feedle.net> <45790D63.1060802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200612080837.kB88bmwf096804@lots.reanimators.org> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I seem to remember that some of the DOS TCP/IP stacks worked fine with > an NDIS driver designed for use with Netware for DOS, but I might be > remembering incorrectly. Something like that, yes. NDIS was MICROS~1's, ODI was Novell's. The first "DOS TCP/IP stacks" were monolithic applications that did everything from terminal emulation and TFTP service to talk to the 3Com 3C50[01]. That was MIT PC/IP. PC/IP got turned into a product at The Wollongong Group: WIN/PC. Some of the folks from MIT saw the ad, recognized PC/IP in it, and said "hey, we could do that!" They got a deal on some green binders and FTP Software was born, or maybe it was the other way around. (Disclaimer: I worked for TWG, but not 'til 1989.) As the variety of PC Ethernet adapters grew, the stacks got decoupled from the applications and the card drivers, and then you found yourself loading a card driver TSR, then the stack TSR, then the configuration, and then you could run network applications. This was still pesky as the stack vendors still typically had to write their own drivers and application vendors had to have different versions of their networked applications to talk to each stack. FTP Software came up with the "packet driver" specification for the interface to their network card drivers. Novell came up with ODI which I think stood for Open Driver Interface. MICROS~1 was pushing LAN Manager about this time (very late 1980s early 1990s) and came up with NDIS. One benefit of these interfaces was that multiple protocol stacks (e.g. Netware and TCP/IP) could share the card. I remember in the early 1990s, TWG had "dedicated" drivers for a variety of Ethernet cards (and one for SLIP), and there was a "shim" driver that provided an interface between the stack and a packet driver. Later there were "shim" drivers for ODI and NDIS too. Before the ODI driver was written, there was a set of steps (long since forgotten) that you had to go through to get Netware to work alongside WIN/TCP for DOS. -Frank McConnell From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Dec 8 02:45:42 2006 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:45:42 +0000 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: References: <4655.86.144.143.49.1165540226.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <45792636.4030101@philpem.me.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/8/06, Lee Davison wrote: >> There are no excuses .. http://www.geocities.com/mwinterhoff/galblast.htm > > Very nice. I may have to look into that as a replacement for my ancient > UP600a. > > I'd personally look into taking the path of an external bench +24VDC > supply, but I can see how it'd be handy to have it all self-contained. > > Has anyone on the list built that one? Yep: Mine's based on a variant of the design that was slightly cheaper to build. 74HC573 latch, resistor-ladder DAC, opamp, KA34063 (=MC34063) based switching PSU, a pair of 7407 O/C buffers, a 7805, some resistor packs and a few passives. The one thing I am going to do is replace the diode voltage dropper with a proper 3.3V regulator - should be an easy mod (steal GND from the 7805, Vin from the top of the diode chain, Vout to the bottom of the chain). Since taking that photo, I've added a proper DC power jack and a slightly beefier power switching transistor. My 6502 computer (), incidentally, is stuffed full of GALs. One for each board at the moment, two on the IDE/FDD controller (which is being redesigned to use a Xilinx CPLD). -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Dec 7 14:41:33 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:41:33 +0000 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Dec 2006 14:48:38 EST." <45787016.2050004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200612072041.UAA18814@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Sridhar Ayengar said: > Stan Barr wrote: > > Now if only there was Lynx for DOS :-) > > There is... you just have to use an older version. Thanks...it never occurred to me to look! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 8 05:51:45 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 05:51:45 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <457951D1.1080809@yahoo.co.uk> Tothwolf wrote: > All of the 3Com cards are software configurable. The utilities and > drivers are even available on 3Com's FTP site :) I know they used to be (as of a few years ago) but I was surprised even then given how long in the tooth they were. I wasn't sure if 3com would have pulled the availability of the utilities by now, but luckily it seems not :) I thought I'd seen an Etherlink III variant that was configured via jumpers rather than software in the past; anyone know if I imagined that? > The 3C905 is the faster of the 3Com cards you have there, as it supports > 100mb. They used to be my preferred 100Mbit card because I knew they were reliable under Linux, to be honest - I've got a few kicking around in various PCs that I've put together over the years. These days Linux supports such a huge range of NICs that it's less of an issue! > The Etherlink XL 3C900, etc also tended to work pretty well, > though they are limited to 10mb. The Etherlink III series 3C509, 3C509B > are also very well, supported, though again limited to 10mb. I'd choose > a 509B over the original 509 if you need to go with an ISA card though, > as it has FIFO support. My firewall's got three 509 boards in it (10Mbit not an issue when the cable modem to the outside world is far slower than that anyway!) but I'm not sure which version they are. Wasn't there a 'C' board, too? > Some of my personal favorite cards were the so-called NE2500 cards (not > NE2000). The chips were made by AMD and their design was a lot more > refined than the original NE2000. They weren't as well supported as the > generic NE2000 though. Ahh, that brings back memories of messing around with supposedly-compatible NE2000 clone boards back in the early 90s in order to run Doom :-) (fuzzy memory says that Doom ran across IPX rather than TCP/IP) cheers Jules From tim.walls at snowgoons.com Fri Dec 8 06:46:46 2006 From: tim.walls at snowgoons.com (Tim Walls) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 12:46:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Machine Independent Storate Idea... Message-ID: Jules Richardson wrote: > Maybe; but it's not vital to operation as the intention would be for the > primary storage to be something like a CF card or a USB stick. Although > that is interesting; the primary store is a USB stick then it's > presumably easy to code the firmware so that the device can be plugged > in via a cable to a system running suitable host software as an > alternative (providing the device holds sufficient local memory to > buffer a track and USB data transfer to the host is > fast enough to not upset whatever the floppy emulator's plugged in to). Unfortunately that's not true :-(. USB is a horrible standard, and it's not orthogonal - hosts are hosts, and targets (my word, I can't remember what the official word is) are targets. So, if your device wants to be able to use USB memory sticks, it needs to implement the USB host interface. That means it won't be able to talk to a computer (also a host interface.) If you want to do both, you'll need two interfaces (and strictly speaking two sockets - the flat socket (Type A IIRC) should only be implemented on a host, a target should only have the square Type B socket. It ought to be impossible to get a flat-4 male to flat-4 male USB cable, apart from anything else.) (By 'Flat 4' I mean the 'normal' USB socket people see on their computers. By 'Square', I mean the square one with two bevelled corners that you don't see as often (an awful lot of USB devices having captive cables.) You can probably find a driver chip that will implement both host and target though, or you may need two driver chips. The Philips PDIUSBD12 (again, IIRC that's the correct name) which is the only one I've ever used will only do target mode, IIRC. Firewire is a much nicer standard for this sort of thing, but of course defeats the object because noone makes Firewire memory sticks :-). Anyway, I'd definitely stick to CompactFlash, but make sure you implement a Type-II (IIRC, again!) interface, the physical size of which is slightly chunkier; that allows you to use the Microdrive harddisks as well as Flash cards. (To sort of answer one of your other questions, I regularly use 4GB CompactFlash hard disks in my digital camera - the only downside of them is they are sloooooooow, at least the cheapo ones I use. It used to be the cheapest way to get a 4GB compact flash hard disk was buy an iPod Mini, crack the thing open and steal the hard disk out of it - they use a CFlash disk internally!) Cheers, Tim -- Tim Walls at home in Leeds EMail & MSN: tim.walls at snowgoons.com From jclang at notms.net Fri Dec 8 08:06:30 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:06:30 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45788B66.30107@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> <45788B66.30107@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <06120809063000.22304@bell> On Thursday 07 December 2006 16:45, you wrote: > C. Sullivan wrote: > >> 8" is left as a bit more of an engineering exercise for the reader :-) > > > > For my money, 8" compatibility would be VERY nice > > Oh, absolutely. I merely meant that building a suitable mounting bracket > would be done on a per-case basis (were there ever companies officially > selling 5.25" to 8" drive brackets? I've never come across such a thing) > > > It is my understanding that there isn't much difference between > > 5 1/4" and 8" electrically, so it might be a moot point. > > Certainly it seems that driving a 8" drive using an 5.25" disk controller > isn't too difficult in a lot of cases. I don't know if the reverse is true > though, i.e. how easy it is to make the interface found on a typical 5.25" > drive work with a system that's expecting 8" disks. I have a pair of teac fd55gfr (5.25 DSDD) drives running on a Monolithic systems Z80 multibus board. I built a small board to handle the connector difference. I used an AVR to generate the missing motor on signal. It looks at the drive select signals and asserts motor on if any drive is selected. It deasserts motor on after 15 seconds of no drive selected. So i guess the short answer is it's not hard. I did it. None of this is an issue for a storage dongle... It doesn't have a motor ;-) > > >> To be honest, I'd like it if the device did have a direct-link > >> capability to the outside world (whether it be RS232, USB, Ethernet, > >> parallel, SCSI, or whatever). But I'm not *that* bothered if it > >> doesn't; it's not that difficult to sneakernet a CF card back and > >> forth between the device and a modern system (except that I blew my > >> card reader up a couple of months back :) > > > > My view was that the "1.0" version would have USB or similar. > > Maybe; but it's not vital to operation as the intention would be for the > primary storage to be something like a CF card or a USB stick. Although > that is interesting; the primary store is a USB stick then it's presumably > easy to code the firmware so that the device can be plugged in via a cable > to a system running suitable host software as an alternative (providing the > device holds sufficient local memory to buffer a track and USB data > transfer to the host is fast enough to not upset whatever the floppy > emulator's plugged in to). > > Of course I suspect that most of us on here (and in the context of vintage > hardware in general) are more comfortable with something like RS232... > > Personally if I were building it I'd put an expansion bus connector on the > board and forget about any kind of host interface for the the initial > release; people can add daughtercards (and updated firmware) for their > favourite comms interface at a later date... > > >>... > > > > Understood. My intention was to make it work well as a drop-in drive > > replacement, and add the other stuff as 'enhanced' features for a 2.0 > > (or later) device. > > Complete agreement. Keep it simple for an initial release; just keep it in > mind what direction it *might* take in future, I suppose. Key for an > initial release would be getting it to act like a floppy drive *reliably* > and working with some form of local storage (personally I like CF, but then > I do tend to be a bit anti-USB :-) > > >> If I knew anything about PIC design* I'd get to doing some messing > >> around with it right now... :-) > > > > A fast PIC could do it. I was leaning more towards something a little > > more sophisticated (not that a PIC can't be), if for no other reason to > > support the creeping features I pointed out above. Also, the floppy > > timings on GCR formats can get a bit weird. FM/MFM should be fairly > > easy. > > That's interesting; personally I hadn't thought about GCR at all really. > The sort of thing I have stuck in my head right now has three small boards > to it: > > 1) A 'core' board containing CPU, a bit of addressing logic, some local > memory (whether a whole track buffer or not I don't know), LCD / switch > logic, ROM, and a header for future expansion. > 2) A 'local storage interface' board, such as one holding a Compact > Flash connector and any control logic (I'd hope that most work could be > done in software) > 3) An 'emulation' board containing the floppy side of things - > connector, buffers, and simple control logic (again I'd hope software could > do the necessary line twiddling. > > The interface between the boards would just be an expansion bus; > essentially just CPU lines and a bit of selection logic. The key is that > such an approach allows someone to make the floppy-side 'emulation' board > totally different in future (along with a firmware change) to support some > completely different floppy electrical specification, or even make it look > to a vintage machine like some totally different low-speed data device. > > Similarly, the 'local storage' side of things could be swapped for > something else; but the core elements of the device would be that it does > have some form of local storage (even if a remote host is connected via > some other comms interface), some form of interface board to a vintage > system, and that the 'core' board stays the same (with the exception of > firmware changes). > > But, I'm not a hardware designer, so all of that is probably wrong. :-) > > > Hard-sector formats might even be easier, or harder. Again, I > > don't know enough about the signals to really know. > > I suspect it's easy enough (but I don't know for sure). It can't be *that* > complex, but whether it needs a change in hardware, I don't know. But see > above - worst-case it's just a different emulation board. > > > I do a lot of microcontroller crap. I'm in the middle of a move right > > now (from Portland, OR to Billings, MT), so I don't have a way of > > testing any theories right now.. but would definately be interested in > > pursuing this as a project early in the new year once I'm settled here. > > Anybody interested in starting up a mailing list specifically to start > > napkin-drawing this thing? I have a listserv... > > I just said that in a private email to Chuck a few hours ago, too :) I'm > all for it - personally what I wouldn't want to see happening is people > wanting millions of features from day one, though (that's what kills a lot > of theoretical discussions on here! :) > > But a simple device that looks like an SA400/SA800 type floppy drive and > uses some form of 'portable' local storage, and has some reasonable > expansion options / future-proofing - yeah, I think that's probably > doable. It's not exactly Warren's dream of a 'portable to every system' > type device, but it's a still a darn useful thing to have and I suspect > would solve a lot of problems for a lot of people (particularly > longer-term). > > Plus it should be reasonably trivial to provide 'floppy to simulator' > copying in the future without a physical vintage machine, which means that > for not much effort we get the ability to archive possibly-damaged disks > from vintage systems onto modern media. (I think Chuck was seeing that as a > feature of the simulator, whereas I was seeing it more as a simple box of > tricks which sat between the simulator and a physical drive to handle the > necessary signalling) > > cheers > > Jules > (all 'theorised out' today! :) From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Dec 8 02:29:53 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:29:53 +0000 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <457851E6.22424.343494F9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4576A5E7.60607@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Dec 6, 6 11:13:43 am, <457851E6.22424.343494F9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45792281.10604@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > At what level does this not hold true? For example, I've got a nice > big router (portable) that draws a full 15 amps at 120v at startup. > That would be a pretty large transformer. At no point, for industrial tools. > Nowadays, however, most portable tools are simply constructed as > "double insulated". Yes, but you're not allowed to use those on building sites etc. in the UK. You need to have 110v tools. The biggest transformers I've seen are about 15kVA and come on a small trolley. They're about a couple of feet on each side. They may in fact be three-phase, but I didn't want to piss off the 20-or-so workmen who had stuff plugged into the two that were on site by disconnecting it for a look at the plug. Gordon From root at parse.com Fri Dec 8 08:17:08 2006 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:17:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: F/S PDP-11/34 CAD$100 Local pickup only Kanata/ON/Canada Message-ID: <200612081417.kB8EH8ci082567@amd64.ott.parse.com> Hi folks, I've decided that my PDP-11/34 is not part of my core collection, and that I really won't have time to do anything intelligent with it. Therefore, I'm selling it for CAD$100, local pickup in Kanata/ON/Canada only (will not ship). Pictures, module inventory, and contact info: www.parse.com/~museum/pdp11/pdp1134/index.html The pictured cabinet is available separately (CAD$100, same terms). (The Gandalf X.25 mux shown in the cabinet has been scrapped already.) Cheers, -RK -- Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices, http://www.parse.com/resume.html Wanted: DEC minis: http://www.parse.com/~museum/admin/wanted.html From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Dec 8 09:02:46 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 15:02:46 +0000 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <45792281.10604@gjcp.net> References: <4576A5E7.60607@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Dec 6, 6 11:13:43 am, <457851E6.22424.343494F9@cclist.sydex.com> <45792281.10604@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45797E96.7060804@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/12/2006 08:29, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> At what level does this not hold true? For example, I've got a nice >> big router (portable) that draws a full 15 amps at 120v at startup. >> Nowadays, however, most portable tools are simply constructed as >> "double insulated". > > Yes, but you're not allowed to use those on building sites etc. in the > UK. You need to have 110v tools. I'm sure there's nothing to stop you using double-insulated tools if they're 110V (and Chuck's router should work at 110V). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 8 09:16:00 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 09:16:00 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <45788C7C.5090405@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> <457862FF.7000605@feedle.net> <45788C7C.5090405@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <457981B0.9090909@yahoo.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Does anyone know if the Trumpet stack (hmm, is it even free?) is > mirrored for download anywhere? The main Trumpet website is inaccessible > (at least from here - I get 'forbidden' errors, but it may be that my > ISPs web proxies have screwed up yet again) huzzah - it seems that their FTP site is still up and running, even if their website is still broken (thanks go to google's cache feature for letting me find out that they do have an FTP site :) Plus, it All Just Worked (tm)... I stuck an Etherlink III board in the box and the packet driver under DOS found it without having to mess around with parameters, then the Trumpet code (ntcpdrv) found the packet driver without trouble. I passed in IP params on the command line, and it all seems happy; I can ping other machines on the LAN and other machines on the LAN can ping the DOS machine. FTP seems to work pretty well too (although I haven't tried a speed test yet) My ultimate aim for this box is to integrate some FTP client code and serial console control with ImageDisk, so that I can have a 'headless' disk imaging system on the LAN - but for the moment just not having to sneakernet disk images around will be a big plus... cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 8 09:32:09 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 10:32:09 -0500 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! In-Reply-To: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> References: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <25134785-6D1B-4E60-9A0F-08E161F75A23@neurotica.com> On Dec 8, 2006, at 3:59 AM, Andrew Wiskow wrote: > Cottonwood BBS is back online and operational! > > After much trial and error, I've got all the right > pieces put together... So dust off your old modem, > and give Cottonwood BBS a call. It's presently the > only known Commodore dial-up BBS in existence! > > I apologize to anyone who tried to call before... The > VoIP line I tried to use didn't work out... So I'm > back with a new number, a regular phone line, and NO > line noise! > > Call now at +1 (951)242-3593 > > For detailed information on the BBS, and tips on > connecting, check out the Cottonwood BBS informational > website: > http://www.wiskow.hpg.ig.com.br/index.htm Are you serious, a real-live old-school BBS? That is fantastic! I've often fantasized about putting one back up (I ran a very small RCPM machine in New Jersey for a while back in the 1980s while I was in high school) but have never gotten around to it. I'd love to recapture some of that old "BBS feel". The World Wide Web is nice, but there's a certain magic to a BBS that the WWW just hasn't managed to duplicate. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 8 09:38:29 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 07:38:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <457981B0.9090909@yahoo.co.uk> from Jules Richardson at "Dec 8, 6 09:16:00 am" Message-ID: <200612081538.kB8FcT5O016754@floodgap.com> > > Does anyone know if the Trumpet stack (hmm, is it even free?) is > > mirrored for download anywhere? The main Trumpet website is inaccessible > > (at least from here - I get 'forbidden' errors, but it may be that my > > ISPs web proxies have screwed up yet again) > > huzzah - it seems that their FTP site is still up and running, even if their > website is still broken (thanks go to google's cache feature for letting me > find out that they do have an FTP site :) URL and path? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "The Living Daylights" ----------------------------- From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Dec 8 09:39:02 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 10:39:02 -0500 Subject: Need any "old" tape media? In-Reply-To: References: <200612071622.22234.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200612081039.02757.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 07 December 2006 19:11, Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > I've got a stack of 8mm (doesn't mention a size, a mix of Verbatim > > data tapes, and Sony and Fuji video tapes), 4mm DDS1 (both 60M and > > 90M), and DLT3 tapes at work which we're getting set to throw > > away... the DDS/8mm tapes have some data on them, and will be > > degaussed... the DLT3's are unused, from several years ago. > > Won't degaussing DDS tapes wipe the factory written sync stuff and > render the tapes worthless? (That was my experience with some years > ago anyway...) It looks like you're right. I'm glad that no one has requested any DDS media. :) It looks like I probably won't be able to offer it (at least not at that low of a price) if I have to erase it with a drive rather than just throw it on the degausser for a few seconds. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Dec 8 09:39:53 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:39:53 +0100 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165592393.6067.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 00:32 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > As an aside, if I've got 110v equipment and 240v mains, would a yellow > > transformer be suitable for running it? I'd assume that most kit will > > be happy enough with a centre-tapped supply but I don't know if I want > > to risk it... > > AFAIK no equipment, either US or European can assume that one side of the > mains is grounds (and safe to touch). Which is a very good thing because Norway has no neutral wire. :) (Two phases, 220V p-p) -Tore From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 8 09:58:16 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 09:58:16 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <200612081538.kB8FcT5O016754@floodgap.com> References: <200612081538.kB8FcT5O016754@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <45798B98.2050709@yahoo.co.uk> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Does anyone know if the Trumpet stack (hmm, is it even free?) is >>> mirrored for download anywhere? The main Trumpet website is inaccessible >>> (at least from here - I get 'forbidden' errors, but it may be that my >>> ISPs web proxies have screwed up yet again) >> huzzah - it seems that their FTP site is still up and running, even if their >> website is still broken (thanks go to google's cache feature for letting me >> find out that they do have an FTP site :) > > URL and path? ftp.trumpet.com.au - which is quite obvious when you think about it :) I just hadn't tried it, but was poking around google's cache of the www.trumpet.com.au website to see if I could get to a download URL that worked and happened to stumble across the fact that they also run a FTP server. (sign of the times, I suppose. There was a day when I would have automatically tried a couple of obvious FTP server addresses if someone's website wasn't working) ftp.trumpet.com seems to work too - but both www.trumpet.com.au and www.trumpet.com over HTTP give me 403/forbidden errors. cheers Jules From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Dec 8 10:22:45 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 11:22:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <1165592393.6067.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1165592393.6067.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200612081625.LAA17391@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Which is a very good thing because Norway has no neutral wire. :) > (Two phases, 220V p-p) However, in my experience you cannot treat either phase to ground as 110V a la North American practice. Quite aside from there being no neutral wire and thus this meaning carrying current over the ground wire, I've seen the voltages to ground rather grossly unbalanced (like the voltage from one side to ground being about twice the that for the other side - 73 and 147 volts, for an exact 220V). I don't know whether this was just a faulty installation, but it happens. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pechter at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 10:32:00 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 11:32:00 -0500 Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP Message-ID: I've also got a big pile of ISA NICS and PCI 10BaseT/Thinnet for shipping cost. I also have FTP software's PC/TCP DOS TCP software if anyone wants the 3 ring binder full of disks. NE2000 clones (10BaseT and Thinnet) WD8013/8212/8003's Intel EtherExpress cards Realtek 8029 3Com 3c509 3Com 3c905 Bill On 12/7/06, Richard wrote: > > > Speaking of ISA NICs, I have a boatload if anyone needs some for cost > of shipping. ISA and PCI. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From pechter at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 10:58:21 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 11:58:21 -0500 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612080704.kB874Gpc095134@lots.reanimators.org> References: <200612080704.kB874Gpc095134@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: Damn... some good stuff on the bookshelves. The Comer books, the Stevens books. Wish I had those here... Bill On 12/8/06, Frank McConnell wrote: > > Richard wrote: > > I was wondering if things like copies of Datamation or other now > > defunct periodicals might show up in that sort of sale. > > Today's fresh arrivals at a Friends of the Library organization to > the north of Sillycon Valley include: > > - some Dr. Dobb's Journal from 1994 and 1996 > - MSDN Magazine, Nov 2001 ("Windows XP is here") > - Teradata review, Summer 1999 > - Software Development, covering the end of 1997 to the beginning of 2002 > with gaps > - Java Developer's Journal, a couple from 1999 and one from 2001 > - WebSphere Advisor, June 2003 > - Bea WebLogic Developer's Journal, four or five across 2001-2004 > - JavaPro, some from 2000, some from 2001, one from 2004 > - PCPhoto, Oct 2000 > - Silicon Valley TechWeek, a couple from May 2000 > - Paradox Informant, May 1995 (three copies though) > > Blah. I'm sending the lot to the bargain room ($0.10/ea I think). > This is perhaps unfortunately typical. I did look through the whole > box, just in case there was an Altair issue of Poptronics, or some > old 1960s Datamation, but no. (It wasn't likely.) > > If you want to get some idea of what's going to be on the main sale > room shelves for Saturday's sale, look at > . Those > pictures were taken on Sunday. I've put some more stuff out since > then. > > -Frank McConnell (yeah, I'm the guy who does the computer section, > and I'm there now) > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 8 11:04:44 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 09:04:44 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <06120809063000.22304@bell> References: , <45788B66.30107@yahoo.co.uk>, <06120809063000.22304@bell> Message-ID: <45792AAC.24232.378355B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 9:06, joseph c lang wrote: > I have a pair of teac fd55gfr (5.25 DSDD) drives running on a Monolithic > systems Z80 multibus board. I built a small board to handle the connector > difference. I used an AVR to generate the missing motor on signal. > It looks at the drive select signals and asserts motor on if any drive is > selected. It deasserts motor on after 15 seconds of no drive selected. I guess I AM showing my age. My first impulse would have been to use a 555--and the same for synthesizing a READY* signal if the drive had no jumper to provide one. Although using an AVR or PIC is also a great idea--just never thought of using an MCU for such a simple job. Geezer's disease, I guess. Cheers, Chuck > > So i guess the short answer is it's not hard. I did it. > > None of this is an issue for a storage dongle... It doesn't have a motor ;-) > > > > > >> To be honest, I'd like it if the device did have a direct-link > > >> capability to the outside world (whether it be RS232, USB, Ethernet, > > >> parallel, SCSI, or whatever). But I'm not *that* bothered if it > > >> doesn't; it's not that difficult to sneakernet a CF card back and > > >> forth between the device and a modern system (except that I blew my > > >> card reader up a couple of months back :) > > > > > > My view was that the "1.0" version would have USB or similar. > > > > Maybe; but it's not vital to operation as the intention would be for the > > primary storage to be something like a CF card or a USB stick. Although > > that is interesting; the primary store is a USB stick then it's presumably > > easy to code the firmware so that the device can be plugged in via a cable > > to a system running suitable host software as an alternative (providing the > > device holds sufficient local memory to buffer a track and USB data > > transfer to the host is fast enough to not upset whatever the floppy > > emulator's plugged in to). > > > > Of course I suspect that most of us on here (and in the context of vintage > > hardware in general) are more comfortable with something like RS232... > > > > Personally if I were building it I'd put an expansion bus connector on the > > board and forget about any kind of host interface for the the initial > > release; people can add daughtercards (and updated firmware) for their > > favourite comms interface at a later date... > > > > >>... > > > > > > Understood. My intention was to make it work well as a drop-in drive > > > replacement, and add the other stuff as 'enhanced' features for a 2.0 > > > (or later) device. > > > > Complete agreement. Keep it simple for an initial release; just keep it in > > mind what direction it *might* take in future, I suppose. Key for an > > initial release would be getting it to act like a floppy drive *reliably* > > and working with some form of local storage (personally I like CF, but then > > I do tend to be a bit anti-USB :-) > > > > >> If I knew anything about PIC design* I'd get to doing some messing > > >> around with it right now... :-) > > > > > > A fast PIC could do it. I was leaning more towards something a little > > > more sophisticated (not that a PIC can't be), if for no other reason to > > > support the creeping features I pointed out above. Also, the floppy > > > timings on GCR formats can get a bit weird. FM/MFM should be fairly > > > easy. > > > > That's interesting; personally I hadn't thought about GCR at all really. > > The sort of thing I have stuck in my head right now has three small boards > > to it: > > > > 1) A 'core' board containing CPU, a bit of addressing logic, some local > > memory (whether a whole track buffer or not I don't know), LCD / switch > > logic, ROM, and a header for future expansion. > > 2) A 'local storage interface' board, such as one holding a Compact > > Flash connector and any control logic (I'd hope that most work could be > > done in software) > > 3) An 'emulation' board containing the floppy side of things - > > connector, buffers, and simple control logic (again I'd hope software could > > do the necessary line twiddling. > > > > The interface between the boards would just be an expansion bus; > > essentially just CPU lines and a bit of selection logic. The key is that > > such an approach allows someone to make the floppy-side 'emulation' board > > totally different in future (along with a firmware change) to support some > > completely different floppy electrical specification, or even make it look > > to a vintage machine like some totally different low-speed data device. > > > > Similarly, the 'local storage' side of things could be swapped for > > something else; but the core elements of the device would be that it does > > have some form of local storage (even if a remote host is connected via > > some other comms interface), some form of interface board to a vintage > > system, and that the 'core' board stays the same (with the exception of > > firmware changes). > > > > But, I'm not a hardware designer, so all of that is probably wrong. :-) > > > > > Hard-sector formats might even be easier, or harder. Again, I > > > don't know enough about the signals to really know. > > > > I suspect it's easy enough (but I don't know for sure). It can't be *that* > > complex, but whether it needs a change in hardware, I don't know. But see > > above - worst-case it's just a different emulation board. > > > > > I do a lot of microcontroller crap. I'm in the middle of a move right > > > now (from Portland, OR to Billings, MT), so I don't have a way of > > > testing any theories right now.. but would definately be interested in > > > pursuing this as a project early in the new year once I'm settled here. > > > Anybody interested in starting up a mailing list specifically to start > > > napkin-drawing this thing? I have a listserv... > > > > I just said that in a private email to Chuck a few hours ago, too :) I'm > > all for it - personally what I wouldn't want to see happening is people > > wanting millions of features from day one, though (that's what kills a lot > > of theoretical discussions on here! :) > > > > But a simple device that looks like an SA400/SA800 type floppy drive and > > uses some form of 'portable' local storage, and has some reasonable > > expansion options / future-proofing - yeah, I think that's probably > > doable. It's not exactly Warren's dream of a 'portable to every system' > > type device, but it's a still a darn useful thing to have and I suspect > > would solve a lot of problems for a lot of people (particularly > > longer-term). > > > > Plus it should be reasonably trivial to provide 'floppy to simulator' > > copying in the future without a physical vintage machine, which means that > > for not much effort we get the ability to archive possibly-damaged disks > > from vintage systems onto modern media. (I think Chuck was seeing that as a > > feature of the simulator, whereas I was seeing it more as a simple box of > > tricks which sat between the simulator and a physical drive to handle the > > necessary signalling) > > > > cheers > > > > Jules > > (all 'theorised out' today! :) From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 8 11:06:55 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:06:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <45798B98.2050709@yahoo.co.uk> from Jules Richardson at "Dec 8, 6 09:58:16 am" Message-ID: <200612081706.kB8H6tv2018308@floodgap.com> > > URL and path? > > ftp.trumpet.com.au - which is quite obvious when you think about it :) Ijust > hadn't tried it, but was poking around google's cache of the > www.trumpet.com.au website to see if I could get to a download URL that > worked and happened to stumble across the fact that they also run a FTP > server. > > ftp.trumpet.com seems to work too - but both www.trumpet.com.au and > www.trumpet.com over HTTP give me 403/forbidden errors. What was the path to the file? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of Douglas Adams ------------------------------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 8 11:18:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 09:18:09 -0800 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <1165592393.6067.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: , <1165592393.6067.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <45792DD1.3024.378F9F70@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 16:39, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > Which is a very good thing because Norway has no neutral wire. :) (Two > phases, 220V p-p) So, the distribution voltage in Norway is 155V RMS? It seems to me that the situation with 110v power tools in the UK is not all that different from our own US convention for larger tools. I know of no portable power tools that use 240v, except for welders and demolition hammers. The distribution transformer (in the case of single-phase power) has its center tap grounded and connected to the neutral conductor. So my table and bandsaw, as well as my jointer and shaper have their frames grounded while using 240v motors. So the maximum exposure to ground in the case of an accident is 120v. But all in all, if I were to be accidentally shocked, I'd rather that it were 55v rather than 120v! Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 8 11:19:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 09:19:43 -0800 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! In-Reply-To: <25134785-6D1B-4E60-9A0F-08E161F75A23@neurotica.com> References: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com>, <25134785-6D1B-4E60-9A0F-08E161F75A23@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45792E2F.14461.37910F63@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 10:32, Dave McGuire wrote: > Are you serious, a real-live old-school BBS? That is fantastic! > I've often fantasized about putting one back up (I ran a very small > RCPM machine in New Jersey for a while back in the 1980s while I was > in high school) but have never gotten around to it. I'd love to > recapture some of that old "BBS feel". The World Wide Web is nice, > but there's a certain magic to a BBS that the WWW just hasn't managed > to duplicate. Can I call it using Skype? :) (Ducking the brickbats...) Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 8 11:37:23 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:37:23 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <200612081706.kB8H6tv2018308@floodgap.com> References: <200612081706.kB8H6tv2018308@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4579A2D3.1040603@yahoo.co.uk> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> URL and path? >> ftp.trumpet.com.au - which is quite obvious when you think about it :) Ijust >> hadn't tried it, but was poking around google's cache of the >> www.trumpet.com.au website to see if I could get to a download URL that >> worked and happened to stumble across the fact that they also run a FTP >> server. >> >> ftp.trumpet.com seems to work too - but both www.trumpet.com.au and >> www.trumpet.com over HTTP give me 403/forbidden errors. > > What was the path to the file? aha. ftp://ftp.trumpet.com.au/tcp-abi/ntcpdrv.zip - 'new' TCP driver/TSR ftp://ftp.trumpet.com.au/tcp-abi/tcp201.zip - old driver/TSR + utils Note that only the old driver zip file contains the utilities (ping, ftp etc.), but the 'old' utils seem to work happily with the new driver (I've no idea why they don't package the utils as a separate file if they're compatible with both driver releases!) cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 8 11:51:26 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:51:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for LC/Performa 550 mo'bo', 8*24*GC NuBus card Message-ID: <200612081751.kB8HpQjj018550@floodgap.com> I'm looking for a replacement Mac LC 550 (Performa 550, Color Classic II) motherboard. I'm also looking for an 8*24*GC NuBus video card. If you have either or both of these and are willing to part with/sell them, please let me know off list. Thanks! -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Ah, the insight of hindsight. -- Thurston N. Davis ------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 8 11:54:39 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:54:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <4579A2D3.1040603@yahoo.co.uk> from Jules Richardson at "Dec 8, 6 11:37:23 am" Message-ID: <200612081754.kB8Hsd5J009740@floodgap.com> > aha. > > ftp://ftp.trumpet.com.au/tcp-abi/ntcpdrv.zip - 'new' TCP driver/TSR > ftp://ftp.trumpet.com.au/tcp-abi/tcp201.zip - old driver/TSR + utils > > Note that only the old driver zip file contains the utilities (ping, ftp [...] Ah. Cheers, thanks for that :) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Support your local hospital. Play hockey. ---------------------------------- From wizard at voyager.net Fri Dec 8 12:34:55 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:34:55 -0500 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! In-Reply-To: <25134785-6D1B-4E60-9A0F-08E161F75A23@neurotica.com> References: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> <25134785-6D1B-4E60-9A0F-08E161F75A23@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1165602895.32029.310.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 10:32 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > Are you serious, a real-live old-school BBS? That is fantastic! > I've often fantasized about putting one back up (I ran a very small > RCPM machine in New Jersey for a while back in the 1980s while I was > in high school) but have never gotten around to it. I'd love to > recapture some of that old "BBS feel". The World Wide Web is nice, > but there's a certain magic to a BBS that the WWW just hasn't managed > to duplicate. Hey, Dave, I ran an RBBS-PC BBS for a little over ten years, Data Basics. I still find references to it, and its phone number, in various places. I'll bet it's annoying for whoever currently has that phone number. I believe I still have the computer loaded with the software... and I have been debating setting it up again, just to make inter-machine transfers of data easier on myself. I used it as advertising, sort of, for my consultancy business. I would answer any technical computer question I got within 24 hours. Fortunately, nobody ever asked a really tough question, so I never ended up stumped. I *DID* have to research a small number of questions, including one all-nighter with a LOT of reference books. THAT was annoying. But, it worked: lots of people, all over town, though of me as "the answer man," and there are lots worse rep's one can have as a consultant. Lansing, Michigan, is a reasonably small town, and the odds are, SOMEBODY in each IT department was subscribed to my board, and would say they knew who to hire to solve a problem. I shut The Data Basics RBBS System down after the Internet ISPs took over the functions. The decision point was that one month I analyzed the CALLERS log, and found that my system had ONLY had messages, and private ones, at that, between two people who were carrying on an extra-marital affair. Kinda took the fun out of it for me... a whole MONTH with what amounts to nobody calling. *SIGH* But, if there's interest, I could probably set it up again... Well, I certainly COULD set it up again, and probably will; the salient point is, is it worth it for a reasonable number of people for me to start paying for another phone line to connect to the outside world, and having one more computer running all the time? I could pretty much guarantee that it would be running on genuine historic equipment. Comments? This would be a U.S. number in the Detroit area, mind you. I can call anywhere in the U.S. for any length of time for a flat fee. (THAT would have been wonderful in the age of FidoNet, the inter-system e-mail protocol that involved calling central hubs to exchange mail.) If you do NOT have this, or live, as many of you apparently do, (as I gather from your OUTRAGEOUS spelling <*>) in Blighty, the cost of a anything more than a quick nostalgia call could be nasty. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Dec 8 13:35:26 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 14:35:26 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? Message-ID: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Hi guys, I've been having an esclating correspondance with a chap named "Murray Balascak" (anyone know him?) - who contacted me regarding his displeasure with my mention of the Apple-1 on the Apple-II page of my site - here is what I have posted as part of my introdiuction to the Apple-II: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In 1976, Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs formed the Apple Computer Company, and built a home computer they called the "Apple 1" in their garage. Although it required the users to provide their own cabinet, power supply, keyboard and video monitor, it didn't require a separate terminal, and a simple BASIC interpreter could be loaded with an optional cassette interface. Although it required a fairly technical user to complete the system and make it usable, about 200 Apple 1s were sold in the first year. The following year (1977), Apple refined the design, providing a keyboard and power supply and packaging the machine in a attractive low-profile plastic cabinet with simple connections for the video monitor and tape storage. Now - anyone who could plug two connectors together could use this computer. The result, called "Apple 2" was one of the most successful early personal computers, and sold many thousands of units. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Mr. Balascaks first correspondance, he stated that the KIM-1 was a far better machine than the Apple-1, asked if I had succumbed to "the relentless revisionism of the brand zealots?", and demanded that I "correct the above reference to show the machine's irrelevance". In his second correspondance, he stated that I am spreading "Apple propaganda", again stated that the KIM-1 was better, sold in higher quantities and cheaper (I still do not know what the KIM-1 has to do with an Apple-II page). In his third correspondance he acqused me of "posting lies and being worse than useless by corrupting history into fiction". Again, he stated that the KIM-1 was a far better machine and much cheaper. In his last email, he indicated that he believes I am responsable for the degradation of the internet and the reason that it cannot be trusted as a source of information. I don't know where this is coming from - I believe my reference to the Apple-1 is accurate considering it's brevity - Apple was formed in 1976 and operated out of Jobs basement. The Apple-1 was sold through the homebrew computer club as well as a few of stores, and although I do not have confirmed numbers of sales, I believe it was around 200 units. It was never my intention to make a page about the Apple-1 (I don't have one, and I only feature systems on my site which are in my collection)... I believe at some point someone asked why I didn't mention the Apple-1 so I added this one paragraph as part of the Apple-II history. I have no other references to the Apple-1 (at least that I can recall) on my site. In all of my responses to him, I indicated that I am unwilling to change the site based on the hearsay of one individual, especially when that person has an apparent (in my opinion based on correspondance received) bias for or against the material being questioned, however I would be happy to revise the site in response to any documented facts/evidence he can provide that the material I have is incorrect. All I have received in return is statements about how much better the KIM-1 was (I make no such comparisons on my site), how expensive the Apple-1 and Apple-II were (I post no such prices on my site), and rants about a website that apparently lists Woz as the "inventor of the single-board computer" (I make no such claim on my site). I should probably just ignore it - but the fact that I have been accused of lying and deliberatly posting misinformation is disturbing to me ... So - I throw it to the list - As a background statement showing that Apple existed and sold a predecessor in small volumes for a time before the Apple-II ... Is my posting above non-factual? If so, in what way, and can you provide supporting documentation? Please keep in mind that I do not wish to post a page about the Apple-1, only a single paragraph as a way of introducing the guys who built the Apple-2. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Dec 8 06:44:49 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 07:44:49 -0500 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Dec 2006 18:14:32 PST." Message-ID: <200612081244.kB8Cio5p023532@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: >> >>> Also a CPLD (maybe a 9536XL) is about as cheap as a >>> GAL now ($1.00 or so), >>> much more capable, and programmable with nothing but >>> a parallel port (JEDEC >>> ISP) >> >> Well not just the parallel port I'm sure. Hope >> someone posts the url that has plans for that... >> you can buy xilinx parallel port "cables" on ebay for $15. i'd be hard pressed to make it myself for less... -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Dec 8 06:46:13 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 07:46:13 -0500 Subject: pdp-8 3 cycle data break? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Dec 2006 16:42:05 MST." Message-ID: <200612081246.kB8CkERR023635@mwave.heeltoe.com> Richard wrote: > >In article <200612072044.kB7Ki2P1032727 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, > Brad Parker writes: > >> any pointers/comments appreciated. > >Maybe something in here? > not bad - thanks. that manual predates my pdp-8 time. I didn't realize the early 8's were so asynchronous. and I didn't realize an df32 was so cool! -brad From marvin at rain.org Fri Dec 8 12:43:08 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 10:43:08 -0800 Subject: Stiction Message-ID: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> I've read several replies indicating that the drive needs to be taken apart. People have also advocated just "hitting" the drive to break the stiction. Holding the drive and giving it a quick twist around the spindle axis has always worked for me and avoids potential problems with disassembly or damage. Has anyone seen stiction on the IDE or later drives? The only stiction I've seen has always been on the 5 1/4" MFM/RLL type drives, and probably ESDI/SCSI/SASI as well although my experience is limited on those drives. Something else I've noticed is that if a drive has stiction, that stiction will return after the drive sets for a while again. Anyone know what actually causes stiction? From wizard at voyager.net Fri Dec 8 12:50:28 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:50:28 -0500 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <45792DD1.3024.378F9F70@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <1165592393.6067.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45792DD1.3024.378F9F70@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1165603829.32029.318.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 09:18 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Dec 2006 at 16:39, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > > > Which is a very good thing because Norway has no neutral wire. :) (Two > > phases, 220V p-p) > > So, the distribution voltage in Norway is 155V RMS? Oh, good... I'm NOT the only one... > But all in all, if I were to be accidentally shocked, I'd rather that > it were 55v rather than 120v! Rick Romero strikes again. Film at eleven. For the unaware, Rick Romero has become a 'Net icon for being the personification of "Captain Obvious." He was, and probably still is, a television reporter for a station in southern California. He earned his notoriety by belaboring the obvious as if it were news... "Obesity thought to be caused by over-eating," and "Sixteen month spree by serial rapist causes local concern." So sincere, so concerned, so clueless. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 12:53:06 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 13:53:06 -0500 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <200612081244.kB8Cio5p023532@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200612081244.kB8Cio5p023532@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 12/8/06, Brad Parker wrote: > > > "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > >> > >>> Also a CPLD (maybe a 9536XL) is about as cheap as a > >>> GAL now ($1.00 or so), > >>> much more capable, and programmable with nothing but > >>> a parallel port (JEDEC > >>> ISP) > >> > >> Well not just the parallel port I'm sure. Hope > >> someone posts the url that has plans for that... > >> > > you can buy xilinx parallel port "cables" on ebay for $15. > > i'd be hard pressed to make it myself for less... I made one according to this guild, http://toolbox.xilinx.com/docsan/2_1i/data/common/jtg/fig26.htm It worked well. vax, 9000 > -brad > From feedle at feedle.net Fri Dec 8 12:57:00 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:57:00 -0700 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4579B57C.7080109@feedle.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi guys, > > I've been having an esclating correspondance with a chap named > "Murray Balascak" (anyone know him?) - who contacted me regarding > his displeasure with my mention of the Apple-1 on the Apple-II page of > my site - here is what I have posted as part of my introdiuction to the > Apple-II: Dave: Your page seems to accurately describe the Apple I, and contains nothing that is historically inaccurate. The guy's complaints don't seem very relevant. The KIM-1 is of interest only in the general scheme of 6502-based computers, and perhaps as an interesting historical side-note in the history of Commodore Business Machines (as they bought MOS Technologies sometime soon after the KIM-1). FWIW, I was around in those early days (like a lot around here). My first exposure to a "personal computer" was through the Explorer post in Orange County, who had a small collection of Apple I computers in various configurations. I also saw a lot of Imsai and Altair machines as well in that age. I didn't see a KIM-1 until I was in college, and then it was considered an "artifact." From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 8 13:03:20 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:03:20 -0600 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4579B6F8.8040409@mdrconsult.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi guys, > > I've been having an esclating correspondance with a chap named > "Murray Balascak" (anyone know him?) - who contacted me regarding > his displeasure with my mention of the Apple-1 on the Apple-II page of > my site - here is what I have posted as part of my introdiuction to the > Apple-II: Are you sure that isn't M. Sokolov under a nym? Doc From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 8 13:07:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:07:49 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> References: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> Message-ID: <45794785.6071.37F40BF7@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 10:43, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I've read several replies indicating that the drive needs to be taken apart. > People have also advocated just "hitting" the drive to break the stiction. I don't think what some of the folks were talking about was "stiction". It seemed as if the positioner itself were stuck. IIRC. In the case of stiction, the spindle motor itself cannot overcome the adhesion between the platters and the heads, so the drive never spins up. I've got an SA-4008 that I'm wondering about--obviously the spindle motor spins the platters up to speed, but the drive doesn't come ready (it did about 5 years ago when I last powered it). I'm wondering if there's a stuck positioner issue on that one. Anyone have any ideas? Cheers, Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 8 13:08:27 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:08:27 -0800 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4579B82B.10806@sbcglobal.net> > >I should probably just ignore it - but the fact that I have been accused >of lying and deliberatly posting misinformation is disturbing to me ... >So - I throw it to the list - As a background statement showing that >Apple existed and sold a predecessor in small volumes for a time >before the Apple-II ... Is my posting above non-factual? If so, in >what way, and can you provide supporting documentation? > >Please keep in mind that I do not wish to post a page about the Apple-1, >only a single paragraph as a way of introducing the guys who built >the Apple-2. > >Regards, >Dave > > Your page looks accurate to me. The Apple 1 was a little expensive ($666.66 in 1976). I have a flyer advertising the Apple 1 here: http://www.dvq.com/misc/images/apple.pdf It shows the date and price. Bob From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Dec 8 13:12:57 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 11:12:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: References: <200612081244.kB8Cio5p023532@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2006, 9000 VAX wrote: > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 13:53:06 -0500 > From: 9000 VAX > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: What would it take... > > On 12/8/06, Brad Parker wrote: >> >> >> "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: >> >> >> >>> Also a CPLD (maybe a 9536XL) is about as cheap as a >> >>> GAL now ($1.00 or so), >> >>> much more capable, and programmable with nothing but >> >>> a parallel port (JEDEC >> >>> ISP) >> >> >> >> Well not just the parallel port I'm sure. Hope >> >> someone posts the url that has plans for that... >> >> >> >> you can buy xilinx parallel port "cables" on ebay for $15. >> >> i'd be hard pressed to make it myself for less... > > > I made one according to this guild, > http://toolbox.xilinx.com/docsan/2_1i/data/common/jtg/fig26.htm > > It worked well. > > vax, 9000 > > >> -brad >> > I have PCBs for a Xilinx model 3 parallel compatible cable with some improvements: Schmitt triggers on all I/O - especially important on TCLK if you have a long parallel cable. HC (not HCT) parts and VIO clamp so it will work reliably with 2.5V JTAG If anyone wants one I will mail them to them for free... Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 8 13:09:27 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:09:27 -0500 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> Message-ID: <200612081915.kB8JFH32035149@keith.ezwind.net> Stiction is mostly caused by a breakdown in the lubricant. Over simplified, oil turns to varnish or tar. I too have had good luck with a wrist twist to get them spinning again. and there is a very high likeliness that they will bind up again if allowed to stop and cool down. I have seen several IDE's have had stiction problems after being shut down for the first time after extended 24/7 use. I have a maxtor that bound up on me, two days ago, after 6 years of constant 24/7 server use I shut it down for a long over due upgrade. It cooled off while I moved the system to the my cave to work on it and the drive never spun back up. I knew I should have backed a few things up before I moved it :( In the past, I opened up an IDE and spun it up by hand. Once it got running, I got the files off of it I needed. For fun I left it run open on the workbench bench for close to a week before it died. I had a lot of people come by to see it, and stared in disbelief as the heads sang across the disk when I did a defrag on it. later Bob Bradlee On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 10:43:08 -0800, Marvin Johnston wrote: >I've read several replies indicating that the drive needs to be taken apart. >People have also advocated just "hitting" the drive to break the stiction. >Holding the drive and giving it a quick twist around the spindle axis has always >worked for me and avoids potential problems with disassembly or damage. >Has anyone seen stiction on the IDE or later drives? The only stiction I've seen >has always been on the 5 1/4" MFM/RLL type drives, and probably ESDI/SCSI/SASI >as well although my experience is limited on those drives. >Something else I've noticed is that if a drive has stiction, that stiction will >return after the drive sets for a while again. Anyone know what actually causes >stiction? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 8 13:15:35 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:15:35 -0600 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4579B9D7.3040007@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Dunfield wrote: > I should probably just ignore it Yep. If you're not judging the Apple-1 against anything else, then you haven't done anything wrong. In addition, as far as I'm aware you haven't stated anything factually incorrect (although I'm from the wrong side of the pond there, so my knowledge of Apple history's a little basic!) He obviously thinks you're a talented historian and writer who just hasn't taken the opportunity to write about his favourite machine. Take it as praise and move on :-) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 8 13:25:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:25:02 -0800 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <4579B57C.7080109@feedle.net> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca>, <4579B57C.7080109@feedle.net> Message-ID: <45794B8E.18622.3803CD3A@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 11:57, C. Sullivan wrote: > Your page seems to accurately describe the Apple I, and contains nothing > that is historically inaccurate. The guy's complaints don't seem very > relevant. The KIM-1 is of interest only in the general scheme of > 6502-based computers, and perhaps as an interesting historical side-note > in the history of Commodore Business Machines (as they bought MOS > Technologies sometime soon after the KIM-1). Ditto here--and I remember the Homebrew offer for the Apple that was pitched--it was some discount off of the $666.66 asking retail price, but I can't recall the exact number. I passed it up--I already had my S-100 box, as did quite a few people. A single-board computer just didn't interest me. I did have a couple of friends who owned KIM-1 boards, but I think they soon became frustrated at the lack of expandability (versus an S- 100 box). There were vendors who offered external card cages and even a floppy controller for KIM-1 expansion, but it was a scattered effort. (BTW, I still have a 2708 EPROM burner for a KIM-1 if anyone wants it.) I'm trying to remember if it was Solid State Music who offered the S- 100 6502 board. Does anyone recall? Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 8 13:26:41 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:26:41 -0600 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> References: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> Message-ID: <4579BC71.8030006@yahoo.co.uk> Marvin Johnston wrote: > Has anyone seen stiction on the IDE or later drives? Yep, on early Connor IDE drives. I don't know if that happened to be a bad batch (I was testing them a couple of years after manufacture and 2/3 were DOA due to stiction), or "they were all like that, sir". I don't recall seeing it on later IDE drives though, or on any SCSI drive (don't forget that some SCSI drives won't spin up without communication with the HBA, so can appear dead when power only is applied) > Something else I've noticed is that if a drive has stiction, that stiction will > return after the drive sets for a while again. Anyone know what actually causes > stiction? my *assumption* is that it's some sort of break-down in either the head material or the coating on the platters, such that when at rest of any period of time the heads manage to reattach themselves to the platters. Unfortunately there seems to be no cure, expect for never powering the drive down until some other failure finally renders it useless. cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From ray at arachelian.com Fri Dec 8 13:55:55 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:55:55 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4579C34B.2010606@arachelian.com> Hmmm, wasn't last night (or a day before) a full moon? I think that would explain the, um, interesting exchange. ;-) >From what little I know of the KIM-1, it was a single board computer without a case. It did have an LED segment display and a hexadecimal keyboard. Nothing to write home about. The Apple ][ (and not to be an Apple biggot, so I'll mention the PET) were more complete computers. Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi guys, > > I've been having an esclating correspondance with a chap named > "Murray Balascak" (anyone know him?) - who contacted me regarding > his displeasure with my mention of the Apple-1 on the Apple-II page of > my site - here is what I have posted as part of my introdiuction to the > Apple-II: > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 8 13:54:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 19:54:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <45794785.6071.37F40BF7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 8, 6 11:07:49 am Message-ID: > I've got an SA-4008 that I'm wondering about--obviously the spindle You mean the 14" one? > motor spins the platters up to speed, but the drive doesn't come > ready (it did about 5 years ago when I last powered it). I'm > wondering if there's a stuck positioner issue on that one. Anyone > have any ideas? The SA4000 that I have a techincal manual for (and which is used in the PERQ 1) uses a stepper motor to move the heads. It doesn't (AFAIK) require any feedback signal from the platters to go ready... Let me look at the manual. I can at least see what causes the ready line to be asserted, and you can check back from that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 8 13:33:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 19:33:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <457851E6.22424.343494F9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 7, 6 05:39:50 pm Message-ID: > > I own a Toshiba microwave oven (with 3-prong grounding plug) that > will not power up if the mains socket is wired up with the feed > reversed. Drove me crazy the first time I tried to use it until I Is this by accident or design? > > [For those who wonder what on earth I am talking about, portable > > industrial power tools -- electric drills, for example -- in the UK are > > 110V devices. > > At what level does this not hold true? For example, I've got a nice > big router (portable) that draws a full 15 amps at 120v at startup. > That would be a pretty large transformer. The 'standaed' portable power tool transformer over here is rated at 3 (or 3.3) kVA. It's fitted with a pair of output sockets, each rated to carry 16A (obviously you can't load both fully at the same time). Even that can be a little marginal. I am sure I've seen at least one portable power tool over here (probably an angle grinder) that was rated at 2.8kW > Nowadays, however, most portable tools are simply constructed as > "double insulated". Yes, so are these. But if that insulation fails, or the tool gets wet (say on a building site), it's better to get 55V across you than 230V. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 8 13:36:41 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 19:36:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <1165547014.32029.256.camel@linux.site> from "Warren Wolfe" at Dec 7, 6 10:03:34 pm Message-ID: > Interestingly, that is how U.S. Navy power on-board ships works, > too. (Well, as of 25 years ago... *SIGH*) Two out-of-phase 60 volt > live sides. U.S. standard house wiring is, however, three wire: Live, > Neutral, and Ground at 120 volts, 60 Hz. Some equipment we used on the > ship was designed for land-based labs, and case-grounded, which meant > that when you plugged them in, you were shorting out half the mains. Why? Since there should be no connection between the active parts of the mains circuit and the earthed metal case, why did it matter what point of the mains supply (one side, or the mid point) was grounded? -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Dec 8 14:04:10 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 20:04:10 -0000 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <002101c71b04$07a34c30$5f04010a@uatempname> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi guys, > > I've been having an esclating correspondance with a chap named > "Murray Balascak" (anyone know him?) Nope. But if he's from Concordia University, he's not just picking on you: http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000069-2.html (he's mentioend a few times before you get to the bit he wrote). BTW: Your page doesn't mention how the VAX-11/780 packaging was much better than the packaging that came with the Apple I. Where do I send my long, rambling email of complaint? :-) Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 8 14:11:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 12:11:14 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: References: <45794785.6071.37F40BF7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 8, 6 11:07:49 am, Message-ID: <45795662.2993.382E1BC3@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 19:54, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've got an SA-4008 that I'm wondering about--obviously the spindle > > You mean the 14" one? Exactly. I'm not sure if 4008 is the right model; it's the 40MB one. > Let me look at the manual. I can at least see what causes the ready line > to be asserted, and you can check back from that. Thanks! --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 8 14:14:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 12:14:05 -0800 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: References: <457851E6.22424.343494F9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 7, 6 05:39:50 pm, Message-ID: <4579570D.26811.3830B7AD@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 19:33, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I own a Toshiba microwave oven (with 3-prong grounding plug) that > > will not power up if the mains socket is wired up with the feed > > reversed. Drove me crazy the first time I tried to use it until I > > Is this by accident or design? Strangely enough, it's by design. I wondered the same thing and went to the owner's manual. Says so right there. But then, it's an old microwave, so that's when Japanese consumer appliances were still engineered with something other than selling price in mind. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 8 14:52:36 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 14:52:36 -0600 Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP References: Message-ID: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> I have one of the parallel port to ethernet devices... a Xircom. I wonder if anyone ever reverse engineered the user interface to the parallel port for it :) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 8 14:55:36 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 14:55:36 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net><4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk><45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> <160501c71a55$73c485f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <01e701c71b0b$35cebd40$6500a8c0@BILLING> It was written... >> Anybody interested in starting up a mailing list specifically to start >> napkin-drawing this thing? I have a listserv... As do I ;) I wouldn't think it's necessary though... see below... > Chalk me on that! But would this kind of chat be offtopic for this > list? This has been discussed before. This type of conversation is most definitely on-topic. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 8 14:57:31 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 14:57:31 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net><4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk><45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> <160501c71a55$73c485f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <01ec01c71b0b$7be16df0$6500a8c0@BILLING> However this winds up being done.... I'd love it if there was an RS232 serial interface on it with some type of procotol that was documented. I'd LOVE to write a little driver on the HP 2100 that let me write files to it which could then be moved back and forth to a PC... Jay From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 8 15:11:07 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 15:11:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Need any "old" tape media? In-Reply-To: <200612081039.02757.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200612071622.22234.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200612081039.02757.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2006, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 07 December 2006 19:11, Tothwolf wrote: > >> Won't degaussing DDS tapes wipe the factory written sync stuff and >> render the tapes worthless? (That was my experience with some years ago >> anyway...) > > It looks like you're right. I'm glad that no one has requested any DDS > media. :) It looks like I probably won't be able to offer it (at least > not at that low of a price) if I have to erase it with a drive rather > than just throw it on the degausser for a few seconds. Got an autochanger? The older ones are pretty cheap too, it might pay for itself ;) I don't think degaussing hurts 8mm (someone correct me if I'm wrong), though I have no idea what it does to the higher density DLT/SDLT stuff. I know it won't hurt the TK50/TK70 carts, though in the case of the TK70s, some drives might think they are TK50s until they get rewritten. -Toth From wizard at voyager.net Fri Dec 8 15:40:05 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:40:05 -0500 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165614005.32029.330.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 19:36 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > Warren: > > Interestingly, that is how U.S. Navy power on-board ships works, > > too. (Well, as of 25 years ago... *SIGH*) Two out-of-phase 60 volt > > live sides. U.S. standard house wiring is, however, three wire: Live, > > Neutral, and Ground at 120 volts, 60 Hz. Some equipment we used on the > > ship was designed for land-based labs, and case-grounded, which meant > > that when you plugged them in, you were shorting out half the mains. > > Why? Since there should be no connection between the active parts of the > mains circuit and the earthed metal case, why did it matter what point of > the mains supply (one side, or the mid point) was grounded? I worked in a calibration lab. Apparently, some equipment connects (or USED to connect - it certainly would NOT work with a GFI system) the neutral to ground to avoid low current ground loops that could cause tiny measurement errors. I was never quite sure of the physics of that whole "ground loop" business. Anyway, some of the equipment with 3-prong plugs shorted the neutral to ground. This conflicted with ship's power, which was NOT 120 V. service, but two out-of-phase 60 volt circuits, as produced by a motor-generator set. Shorting neutral to ground didn't "fix" neutral at a low potential, it shorted one side. A couple instruments even did it before the fuses. I'm not sure what the thinking was behind that, but fortunately the power cord WILL act as a fuse, although it is rated at quite a few amps, and kind of stinks when it operates... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 8 15:39:56 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 15:39:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: Apple-1 History? Message-ID: <200612082139.kB8LdrOo042979@keith.ezwind.net> --- Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi guys, > *>> snip <<* > > I should probably just ignore it - but the fact th at > I have been accused > of lying and deliberatly posting misinformation is > disturbing to me ... > So - I throw it to the list - As a background > statement showing that > Apple existed and sold a predecessor in small > volumes for a time > before the Apple-II ... Is my posting above > non-factual? If so, in > what way, and can you provide supporting > documentation? > > Please keep in mind that I do not wish to post a > page about the Apple-1, > only a single paragraph as a way of introducing th e > guys who built > the Apple-2. > > Regards, > Dave > Sounds perfectly reasonable to me and, whilst have I no knowledge about the A1's sales figures, the other fact's all seem to be correct. I seem to recall reading about the Apple 1 in either one of my 80 Microcomputing mags or, possibly more likely, the book On The Edge: The Spectacualr Rise and Fall Of Commodore (published last year). Personally, I think it's good to mention rival computers and/or previous models when talking about specific computers. I can see nothing wrong with what you have put and can only say that you have unintensionally rattled a KIM-1 fan. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From wizard at voyager.net Fri Dec 8 15:47:21 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:47:21 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <01ec01c71b0b$7be16df0$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net> <4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk><45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> <160501c71a55$73c485f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <01ec01c71b0b$7be16df0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1165614441.32029.336.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 14:57 -0600, Jay West wrote: > However this winds up being done.... I'd love it if there was an RS232 > serial interface on it with some type of procotol that was documented. I'd > LOVE to write a little driver on the HP 2100 that let me write files to it > which could then be moved back and forth to a PC... Well, if I can (at best) combine or (at worst) conflate two ongoing topics... Why not just write an XModem driver for the HP 2100, and connect to a PC as a BBS? Come to think of it, there are probably XModem (or derivatives or competitors) protocol drivers for it already... On an unrelated topic, did you ever hear of Steve Schmidt? I used to work with HP 21MX machines. He, in order to make a very useful department computer at Michigan Technical University, wrote CP/M into microcode on the 21MX. It was full multi-user, and he implemented Z-80 instructions in microcode, too. Oh, yes, the CP/M call was a single micro-coded instruction. They used various CP/M commercial software on it, and were quite pleased. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Dec 8 15:52:13 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:52:13 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> References: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> Message-ID: <4579DE8D.1030707@msm.umr.edu> Marvin Johnston wrote: > > >Has anyone seen stiction on the IDE or later drives? The only stiction I've seen >has always been on the 5 1/4" MFM/RLL type drives, and probably ESDI/SCSI/SASI >as well although my experience is limited on those drives. > > > I had three cases out of it on ST-225 and relatives. >Something else I've noticed is that if a drive has stiction, that stiction will >return after the drive sets for a while again. Anyone know what actually causes >stiction? > > In the case of the ST-225 they used defective magnetic lubricant on the axis which eventually developed too much friction for the start up pulses in the motor to overcome. A bit of a kick as you mentioned is the only thing to try. once the disk stack is in motion, the motors have to be able to keep it going and if the friction is that great there is no way that taking it apart will fix anything. Never saw it in the smaller drives, but I did see a number of them with being unable to regulate their speed, which may have been a vaiant. They would make different sounds after startup and eventually spin down when they could not find a place to track. This could have been a failure to spin at the right speed, or a failure to correctly lock onto the reference servo and see a basic clock, or an increased friction keeping it from getting up to the correct speed. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 8 16:00:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 15:00:30 -0700 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 08 Dec 2006 15:39:56 -0600. <200612082139.kB8LdrOo042979@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: I would have already been ignoring this guy by the second email. Cranks, and their emails, have a certain 'signature' to them and this guy has all the hallmarks of a crank. You can always put an HTML comment in the source telling him to shut up :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 8 16:04:14 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 17:04:14 -0500 Subject: Kinda OT: LASCRs? Message-ID: <9519EB79-8FFF-4E63-88EE-5CB91C256258@neurotica.com> Hey folks. As a kid in the 1970s with access to only Radio Shack for parts and educational materials, I had a lot of Forrest Mims' books. I've dug up a lot of the ones learned from (new copies via eBay; my original ones are sadly long gone) and in fits of nostalgia I've built quite a few of the old circuits I played with when I was 8 or 9. One component that I really liked was the LASCR. I had one which I used in a few different circuits back then. While I still have some of my old stuff from that era, that one LASCR is nowhere to be found...Now it seems they've disappeared from the scene entirely. Has anyone seen any lately? Is anyone making them anymore? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 16:04:45 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 11:04:45 +1300 Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On 12/9/06, Jay West wrote: > I have one of the parallel port to ethernet devices... a Xircom. I wonder if > anyone ever reverse engineered the user interface to the parallel port for > it :) It would be interesting if anyone ever did. I tried to, about 10 years ago, and ran into a brick wall at Xircom. At the time, there were few options for Ethernet for Amiga, the expensive A2065 being one of a very small number of choices. I had thought that while the pocket adapters would never be fast, every Amiga had a parallel connector and it might be possible to at least put machines on ones network and worry about speed later. I was involved in talks with their technical folks about securing developer-class docs when they totally shut me down because they "didn't want to enter the Amiga market". When pocket adapters came up in the Linux arena shortly thereafter, I made some comments on a mailing list about how difficult Xircom was to work with and how I couldn't endorse their products as such. That comment stuck around on the 'net for a long time, long past the time when I was using a Xircom CE3 PCMCIA NIC with Linux. -ethan From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Dec 8 16:23:28 2006 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:23:28 +0000 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> Dave Dunfield wrote: > I should probably just ignore it - but the fact that I have been accused > of lying and deliberatly posting misinformation is disturbing to me ... > So - I throw it to the list - As a background statement showing that > Apple existed and sold a predecessor in small volumes for a time > before the Apple-II ... Is my posting above non-factual? If so, in > what way, and can you provide supporting documentation? No, as far as I can see, what you said on your site is perfectly accurate. You're not comparing the Apple I to the II, so why he's bitching (and it really seems to just be bitching) about the KIM-1 being 'better', I have no idea. I'd just put it down to him being a rambling fool. I've had *much* worse... Most memorable was someone who wanted me to design him a load of what I'd describe as 'borderline illegal electronic devices' (GPS jammers, airband transceivers, crap like that). I politely declined, then got a wonderful email back to the effect of 'I pay my internet subscription, I'm ENTITLED to this'. Yeah right, pull the other one jackass. Then I got a guy who took a look at my battery-tab welder and demanded that I "upload a better f*cking schematic"... I'm beginning to wonder if there's something in the water or food supply that's impairing the mental functioning of a good chunk of the population of the planet. Or maybe it's global warming - that seems to be the in-vogue 'problem' at the moment. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 8 16:39:23 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 15:39:23 -0700 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:23:28 +0000. <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In article <4579E5E0.8010508 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > [...] Or maybe it's global warming - that seems to be the in-vogue > 'problem' at the moment. Global warming causes bit rot. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Dec 8 16:40:13 2006 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:40:13 -0800 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: (Bill Pechter's message of "Fri\, 8 Dec 2006 11\:58\:21 -0500") References: <200612080704.kB874Gpc095134@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <200612082240.kB8MeDep012041@lots.reanimators.org> Bill Pechter wrote: > Damn... some good stuff on the bookshelves. The Comer books, the Stevens > books. > Wish I had those here... Have you looked at ? -Frank McConnell From wizard at voyager.net Fri Dec 8 17:02:47 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 18:02:47 -0500 Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP In-Reply-To: References: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1165618967.32029.341.camel@linux.site> On Sat, 2006-12-09 at 11:04 +1300, Ethan Dicks wrote: > . . . I made some comments on a mailing list about how difficult > Xircom was to work with and how I couldn't endorse their products as > such. That comment stuck around on the 'net for a long time, long > past the time when I was using a Xircom CE3 PCMCIA NIC with Linux. Yeah, that's a problem... most of us tend to write these e-mail comments as if they were a bit of talk tossed off (American sense of the phrased, please... well, actually, both could apply...) in casual conversation. Then they get sent to perhaps hundreds of people, and archived for posterity. So, it's clear one should say ONLY things one wants remembered for yea... er, wait. Never mind. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From ray at arachelian.com Fri Dec 8 17:22:26 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 18:22:26 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4579F3B2.2080806@arachelian.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > > I'm beginning to wonder if there's something in the water or food > supply that's impairing the mental functioning of a good chunk of the > population of the planet. Or maybe it's global warming - that seems to > be the in-vogue 'problem' at the moment. > Nah, chalk it up to evolution. Some mutations are useful and provide great advantages to those individuals who have them. Others, such as those exhibited by the individuals described in this thread, will likely result in Darwin Awards in the long run. It's true that environment may have had a hand in some of these, for instance, perhaps some of the individuals may have been dropped on their heads, disabled the door switch on a microwave oven and stuck their head inside while it was turned on, or had leaded paint chips fall into their morning cereal, or perhaps have bit into old style thermometers (the kind that used to have mercury in them) and sucked hard, but the end result is pretty much the same. Instead of worrying about debating their points just congratulate them that they were able to somehow manage to get online and figure out how to use email. Perhaps, they may have even be able to tie their own shoelaces today, or spell their own names. That's really a great achievement considering their situation, so email them back congratulating them, if you're so inclined. As long as you don't give them your home phone number, all will be just peachy. :-) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Dec 8 17:25:05 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 15:25:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: magic-1 boards Message-ID: I'm attempting to build a Magic-1 using gEDA. Would anyone be interested in a set of boards for the Magic-1? I'm just pondering the idea right now. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ken at seefried.com Fri Dec 8 18:13:41 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 19:13:41 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612082145.kB8LimVA097268@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612082145.kB8LimVA097268@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061209001341.17205.qmail@seefried.com> From: "Dave Dunfield" > >I've been having an esclating correspondance with a chap named >"Murray Balascak" (anyone know him?) - > The following might come as a suprise: There are trolls on the internet. There are psychos on the internet. There are irrational, obsessive, socially retarded, self-important fanatics on the net. Sometimes, one of them finds you, and makes you the subject of their current delusion. They're easy to identify, and it's best not to have "escalating correspondence" with them. > >I should probably just ignore it - > Bingo. From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Dec 8 18:22:12 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 16:22:12 -0800 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases Message-ID: <20061209002212.GA16903@motherbrain.retronet.net> Folks, I'm trying to hunt down old VAX/VMS releases (earlier than 5.4) and old Ultrix and ULTRIX-32 releases (earlier than 4.2, both for VAX and for RISC). Tape images or CD-ROM images (where appropriate) would be quite welcome, I don't need any original media. If you have any of this stuff lurking around, please do let me know. Thanks very much! -Seth From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 8 18:23:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:23:36 -0800 Subject: Kinda OT: LASCRs? In-Reply-To: <9519EB79-8FFF-4E63-88EE-5CB91C256258@neurotica.com> References: <9519EB79-8FFF-4E63-88EE-5CB91C256258@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45799188.18240.39152641@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 17:04, Dave McGuire wrote: > One component that I really liked was the LASCR. I had one > which I used in a few different circuits back then. While I still > have some of my old stuff from that era, that one LASCR is nowhere to > be found...Now it seems they've disappeared from the scene entirely. > Has anyone seen any lately? Is anyone making them anymore? They used to be quite common in photographic equipment where a strobe was to be slaved to a master unit. I did some browsing around and checking catalogs and have come to the conclusion that it may be easier to find tunnel diodes than LASCRs now. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 18:26:24 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 13:26:24 +1300 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: <20061209002212.GA16903@motherbrain.retronet.net> References: <20061209002212.GA16903@motherbrain.retronet.net> Message-ID: On 12/9/06, Seth J. Morabito wrote: > Folks, > > I'm trying to hunt down old VAX/VMS releases (earlier than 5.4) and old > Ultrix and ULTRIX-32 releases (earlier than 4.2, both for VAX and for > RISC). Tape images or CD-ROM images (where appropriate) would be quite > welcome, I don't need any original media. I do have a quantity of this stuff, but won't have access to it for a couple of months. If you are still looking for VMS 3.6, 4.x or 5.x or Ultrix 1.x or 2.x in March, I may be able to help. I would have standalone boot kits for uVAX and 11/750 more likely than anything else, and nearly all 16MT9 (9-track tape) distro media with a smattering of TU58s and TK50s. We never got any OSes on CD where I used to work. -ethan From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Dec 8 18:42:17 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 16:42:17 -0800 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: References: <20061209002212.GA16903@motherbrain.retronet.net> Message-ID: <20061209004217.GA17123@motherbrain.retronet.net> On Sat, Dec 09, 2006 at 01:26:24PM +1300, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/9/06, Seth J. Morabito wrote: > >Folks, > > > >I'm trying to hunt down old VAX/VMS releases (earlier than 5.4) and old > >Ultrix and ULTRIX-32 releases (earlier than 4.2, both for VAX and for > >RISC). Tape images or CD-ROM images (where appropriate) would be quite > >welcome, I don't need any original media. > > I do have a quantity of this stuff, but won't have access to it for a > couple of months. If you are still looking for VMS 3.6, 4.x or 5.x or > Ultrix 1.x or 2.x in March, I may be able to help. > > I would have standalone boot kits for uVAX and 11/750 more likely than > anything else, and nearly all 16MT9 (9-track tape) distro media with a > smattering of TU58s and TK50s. We never got any OSes on CD where I > used to work. > > -ethan Hi Ethan, Thanks for letting me know! I'll surely still be interested, so please keep me in mind. Those distributions sound like exactly what I'm after. Regards, -Seth Morabito From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 8 19:19:44 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 01:19:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Dec 8, 6 07:54:39 pm Message-ID: > The SA4000 that I have a techincal manual for (and which is used in the > PERQ 1) uses a stepper motor to move the heads. It doesn't (AFAIK) > require any feedback signal from the platters to go ready... No, I was wrong. According to the manual, the 'ready' signal depends on a clock signal that comes from a special track on one of the platters, picked up by a fixed head. The basic procedure if the drive won't go ready is to look at the output of this head's amplifier, if that's missing/incorrect to troubleshoot or replace the read/write PCB (and if that doesn't get it back, then the fault is inside the HDA and is not field repairable). If the output of the clock head amplifier is OK, then therer's a fault on the control PCB. I can find more details if you want. -tony From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 8 19:29:41 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 19:29:41 -0600 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <457A1185.6020700@mdrconsult.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm beginning to wonder if there's something in the water or food supply > that's impairing the mental functioning of a good chunk of the > population of the planet. Or maybe it's global warming - that seems to > be the in-vogue 'problem' at the moment. Google "aspartame Donald Rumsfeld". Be sure your tinfoil hat is properly tuned before reading. Seriously, though, the stuff is amazingly toxic, and proven psychoactive. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 8 19:44:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 17:44:25 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: References: from "Tony Duell" at Dec 8, 6 07:54:39 pm, Message-ID: <4579A479.29672.395F241A@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Dec 2006 at 1:19, Tony Duell wrote: > No, I was wrong. According to the manual, the 'ready' signal depends on a > clock signal that comes from a special track on one of the platters, > picked up by a fixed head. The basic procedure if the drive won't go > ready is to look at the output of this head's amplifier, if that's > missing/incorrect to troubleshoot or replace the read/write PCB (and if > that doesn't get it back, then the fault is inside the HDA and is not > field repairable). If the output of the clock head amplifier is OK, then > therer's a fault on the control PCB. Thanks, it's enough to get me started. I'll let you know if I'm unsuccessful. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 8 19:47:41 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 18:47:41 -0700 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 08 Dec 2006 19:13:41 -0500. <20061209001341.17205.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: In article <20061209001341.17205.qmail at seefried.com>, "Ken Seefried" writes: > Sometimes, one of them finds you, and makes you the subject of their current > delusion. They're easy to identify, and it's best not to have "escalating > correspondence" with them. Sometimes one of them decides that because you won't escalate the flamewar, they need to make a wikipedia page where they bash you there. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From g-wright at att.net Fri Dec 8 19:53:20 2006 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 01:53:20 +0000 Subject: Stiction Message-ID: <120920060153.5861.457A171000069931000016E521602807489B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Chuck Guzis" > On 8 Dec 2006 at 10:43, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > I've read several replies indicating that the drive needs to be taken apart. > > People have also advocated just "hitting" the drive to break the stiction. > > I don't think what some of the folks were talking about was > "stiction". It seemed as if the positioner itself were stuck. IIRC. > In the case of stiction, the spindle motor itself cannot overcome the > adhesion between the platters and the heads, so the drive never spins > up. > > I've got an SA-4008 that I'm wondering about--obviously the spindle > motor spins the platters up to speed, but the drive doesn't come > ready (it did about 5 years ago when I last powered it). I'm > wondering if there's a stuck positioner issue on that one. Anyone > have any ideas? > > Cheers, > Chuck > I have seen may of the older drives have the rubber on the head position stops go bad and hang up the head position or cause it to stick. I have been daring and opened up the drive to clean it off. if this is the problem it can of coarse trash the drive if it gets off the stop post. Cleaning is on easy and takes some time. The next challenge is getting something to replace it with out taking the drive apart. (head alignment.) On some Quantumn 8" dives I spilt some tubing and rapped it around the post with contact glue. So far they still work Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc. From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Dec 8 19:59:27 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 20:59:27 -0500 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 08 Dec 2006 10:43:08 PST." <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> Message-ID: <200612090159.kB91xRUP012041@mwave.heeltoe.com> Marvin Johnston wrote: > >Something else I've noticed is that if a drive has stiction, that stiction >will return after the drive sets for a while again. Anyone know what actually >causes stiction? my dim recollection (back in the day I did actually talk to people from rodime, lapine, nec, etc about 10 & 20mb 3" st-506 drives) is that it was combination of the media plating, coating on the platter and the heads themselves. since there is no landing zone the heads set down on the media. if the media was very smooth and the lubricant too thick, the heads would glue themselves to the media. I suspect there is slightly more to it than that, but it's been a while for me. I know the firmware often did a lot to try and mitigate the problem but I think in the end it was changes in lubricant/coating which made it go away. -brad From brain at jbrain.com Fri Dec 8 22:38:40 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:38:40 -0600 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <457A3DD0.1070503@jbrain.com> Other have noted good information, so I won't rehash. However, if you feel you must respond, feel free to give my name and email, and he can Google for me, for I am a CBM zealot. In light of my qualifications as a CBM fanboi, I will note that KIM-1 was impressive in its price only, little else. The Apple I did not require a Terminal, the KIM-1 did Apple I had 4kB RAM std, KIM-1 had 1kB + 64 bytes. As well, I think the expansion options on the Apple I were more extensive. There are others, of course, but to be fair, it's an apples to oranges comparison. Woz built the Apple-I as a machine, Peddle made the KIM-1 to show off MOS' new CPU. Jim From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Dec 8 23:57:54 2006 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 05:57:54 +0000 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457A5062.2030100@philpem.me.uk> Richard wrote: > Sometimes one of them decides that because you won't escalate the > flamewar, they need to make a wikipedia page where they bash you > there. And usually a Wikipedia admin puts said page on Request For Deletion status. "Expand this page and make it useful before , or it will be zapped!" - great way to deal with the hordes of junk :) -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Dec 9 00:33:14 2006 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:33:14 -0800 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: (legalize@xmission.com's message of "Fri\, 08 Dec 2006 18\:47\:41 -0700") References: Message-ID: <200612090633.kB96XF5G019941@lots.reanimators.org> Richard wrote: > "Ken Seefried" writes: >> Sometimes, one of them finds you, and makes you the subject of their current >> delusion. They're easy to identify, and it's best not to have "escalating >> correspondence" with them. > > Sometimes one of them decides that because you won't escalate the > flamewar, they need to make a wikipedia page where they bash you > there. I was kinda thinking that Dave (or someone, or maybe a bunch of someones) ought to go over to uncyclopedia.org and make up some stuff about a certain 6502 eval board (and maybe some other stuff) that (a) we can all laugh at and (b) will give Dave's whacko correspondent's tinfoil headgear a pressure test when he runs across it. -Frank McConnell From drewbrasil at yahoo.com.br Fri Dec 8 02:59:19 2006 From: drewbrasil at yahoo.com.br (Andrew Wiskow) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 05:59:19 -0300 (ART) Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! Message-ID: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> Cottonwood BBS is back online and operational! After much trial and error, I've got all the right pieces put together... So dust off your old modem, and give Cottonwood BBS a call. It's presently the only known Commodore dial-up BBS in existence! I apologize to anyone who tried to call before... The VoIP line I tried to use didn't work out... So I'm back with a new number, a regular phone line, and NO line noise! Call now at +1 (951)242-3593 For detailed information on the BBS, and tips on connecting, check out the Cottonwood BBS informational website: http://www.wiskow.hpg.ig.com.br/index.htm -Andrew aka Balzabaar (SysOp) _______________________________________________________ Voc? quer respostas para suas perguntas? Ou voc? sabe muito e quer compartilhar seu conhecimento? Experimente o Yahoo! Respostas ! http://br.answers.yahoo.com/ Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list From vaxorcist at googlemail.com Fri Dec 8 10:44:15 2006 From: vaxorcist at googlemail.com (vaxorcist) Date: 8 Dec 2006 08:44:15 -0800 Subject: Wanted: Pertec-to-Qbus Tape Controller; RLV12 RL02 Controller Message-ID: <1165596255.070535.261820@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com> Help! I need a Pertec-to-QBus Tape Controller for my Cipher F880 tape drive. Any make & model will do: - DEC TSV05 controller M7196 - Emulex TC & QT series - Dilog DQ series - ... Furthermore I'd like to have an RLV12 RL02 Disk Controller (M8061). Will swap for other QBus boards or pay as much as a hobbyist can afford. Regards Ulli From jrr at flippers.com Fri Dec 8 12:45:14 2006 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 10:45:14 -0800 Subject: Pro-Log 1702 programmer in BC, Canada? In-Reply-To: <474C8379.5020506@compsys.to> References: <474C8379.5020506@compsys.to> Message-ID: Someone from this group, located here in BC, had called me a month ago about his Pro-Log Eprom programmer that did 1702s. I would like to get in touch with him as I do not have his phone number. Thanks, John :-#)# From root at parse.com Fri Dec 8 14:46:26 2006 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 15:46:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: F/S PDP-11/34 CAD$100 Local pickup only Kanata/ON/Canada [SOLD] Message-ID: <200612082046.kB8KkQVE096238@amd64.ott.parse.com> My goodness that was fast :-) The cabinet is still available... Cheers, -RK Forwarded message: > From cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 8 09:36:31 2006 > From: Robert Krten > Message-Id: <200612081417.kB8EH8ci082567 at amd64.ott.parse.com> > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:17:08 -0500 (EST) > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.86.2, > clamav-milter version 0.86 on keith.ezwind.net > X-Virus-Status: Clean > X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=4.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO > autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 > X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on keith.ezwind.net > X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:33:20 -0600 > Subject: F/S PDP-11/34 CAD$100 Local pickup only Kanata/ON/Canada > X-BeenThere: cctech at classiccmp.org > X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 > Precedence: list > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > List-Unsubscribe: , > > List-Archive: > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Subscribe: , > > Sender: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > Errors-To: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > > > Hi folks, > > I've decided that my PDP-11/34 is not part of my core collection, and that > I really won't have time to do anything intelligent with it. Therefore, > I'm selling it for CAD$100, local pickup in Kanata/ON/Canada only > (will not ship). Pictures, module inventory, and contact info: > > www.parse.com/~museum/pdp11/pdp1134/index.html > > The pictured cabinet is available separately (CAD$100, same terms). > > (The Gandalf X.25 mux shown in the cabinet has been scrapped already.) > > Cheers, > -RK -- Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices, http://www.parse.com/resume.html Wanted: DEC minis: http://www.parse.com/~museum/admin/wanted.html From mnusa2 at hotmail.com Sat Dec 9 06:01:25 2006 From: mnusa2 at hotmail.com (Matti Nummi) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 14:01:25 +0200 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases Message-ID: I have a list of tapes of which I have little knowledge. Currently I cannot (easily) read these tapes. Is there anything of interest. I think they are all for RICS. Here are texts from labels: Text1 Text2 Text3 Copyright AQ-FP14D-BN ME71826 DECNET MVMS V4 NET F/FUNC TK5 DEC 1987 AQ-FX23D-BN ME93124 DNET/SNA GTWY VMS V1.5 TK50 DEC 1989 AQ-ND04A-BE ME2821 DNET/SNA GWY DECSA V1.5 BIN TK50 MANDATORY UPDATE TK50 DEC 1989 AQ-JE99A-BE ME103961 DNET/SNA GWY MGT V2.0 BINTK50 DEC 1988 AQ-JE86A-BK ME105813 DNET/SNA GWY-ST V1.0 BIN TK50 DEC 1988 AQ-FW79E-BE ME86562 MR VMSMAIL GTWY V3.1 BIN TK50 DEC 1988 AQ-JB02C-BE ME71381 MR X.400 GTWY V2.0 BIN TK50 DEC 1988 AQ-JB02D-BE ME84127 MR X.400 GTWY V2.1 BIN TK50 DEC 1988 AQ-FX44D-BN ME93622 SNA GWY MQT-DESCA V1.5 BNTK50 DEC 1989 AQ-GJ04B-BN ME71876 SNA VMS API V2.2 BIN TK50 DEC 1988 AQ-GJ04C-BE ME107116 SNA VMS API V2.3 BIN TK50 DEC 1989 AQ-FX37G-BE ME9002 VAX P.S.I. V4.0 BIN TK50 DEC 1988 AQ-FX37H-BE ME136049 VAX P.S.I. V4.3 BIN TK50 DEC 1990 AQ-FP58C-BN ME00028 VMS LIC KEY BIN TK50 DEC 1986 AQ-LX08C-BE 000MRB9823 VMS V5.1 BIN TK50 MAJOR UPDATE DEC 1989 AQ-LX08D-BE ME101980 VMS V5.1-1 BIN TK50 MAINTENANCE UPDATE DEC 1989 AQ-NB26A-BE ME4010 VMS V5.1-B BIN TK50 BINARY DEC 1989 AQ-LX08F-BE ME608 VMS V5.3-1 BIN TK50 DEC 1990 AQ-JP22F-BE ME151440B VMS V5.4 BIN TK50 1/2 BINARY DEC 1990 AQ-LC99C-BE ME4020 VMS V5.4 BIN TK50 2/2 S/A BKUP - DECWINDOWS DEC 1990 AQ-NJ58B-BE ME999A VMS V5.4 BIN TK50 WARRANTY MANDATORY UPDATE DEC 1990 AQ-FX08H-BE ME1008B VMS V5.4-1 BIN TK50 DEC 1990 AQ-PG7SA-BE ME27000C VMS V5.4-2 BIN TK50 1/1 DEC 1991 AQ-LQ18A-BE ME84679 VOTS V2.0 BIN TK50 DEC 1988 _________________________________________________________________ Nyt l?yd?t etsim?si tiedot nopeasti niin koneeltasi kuin netist?. http://toolbar.msn.fi From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Dec 9 07:45:27 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 13:45:27 -0000 Subject: ARC boards Message-ID: <004701c71b98$490e4780$0200a8c0@p2deskto> I have a quantity of ARC(E) Ltd. boards, from a complex calculator, or small computer. They are in CHesham, Bucks, UK, collection only. A small donation would be welcome, but I'm not that bothered. There are a couple of largish boxes of the things. They go for scrap in acouple of weeks, if not claimed. Jim. Please see our website: www.g1jbg.co.uk From jclang at notms.net Sat Dec 9 08:02:01 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 09:02:01 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45792AAC.24232.378355B4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <06120809063000.22304@bell> <45792AAC.24232.378355B4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <06120909020101.22591@bell> On Friday 08 December 2006 12:04, you wrote: > On 8 Dec 2006 at 9:06, joseph c lang wrote: > > I have a pair of teac fd55gfr (5.25 DSDD) drives running on a Monolithic > > systems Z80 multibus board. I built a small board to handle the connector > > difference. I used an AVR to generate the missing motor on signal. > > It looks at the drive select signals and asserts motor on if any drive is > > selected. It deasserts motor on after 15 seconds of no drive selected. > > I guess I AM showing my age. My first impulse would have been to use > a 555--and the same for synthesizing a READY* signal if the drive > had no jumper to provide one. > > Although using an AVR or PIC is also a great idea--just never thought > of using an MCU for such a simple job. Geezer's disease, I guess. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Actually My first draft was a 555. By the time all the requirements were met, the component count had gotten out of hand. 7420,555,7438,handfull of descretes... a single 20 pin package a crystal and a transistor didn't seem like overkill. And it would handle the creeping feature bloat My projects suffer from ;^) joe From erik at baigar.de Sat Dec 9 09:04:20 2006 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 16:04:20 +0100 (MET) Subject: Data General Dasher D1 - pinout information... In-Reply-To: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear folklorists, recently I got hands on a "Data General Dasher D1", DGC Part number DGC 002 005116. Today I roestored it and analyzed how it works. For those interested, here a short description: (a) PCB made by Keytronic Corp. KTC in 10/1979, Part. No. A65-01538-01. (b) On this are some well known Chips (7474, 7437 74123, ...) and a CPU labeled 30293E-003 20-04592-014. (c) On the PCB is a 20pin PCB-connector and according to my analysis this is a parallel port where the Dasher directly transmits ASCII. (d) Protocol and pinout: 1,2 : GND 3,4: +5V (approx 350-400mA). 5: /Strobe (a low-pulse of 1us signals that new data is valid on the parallel output lines D0-D7). Data is applied approx 5us before the strobe appears. 6: N.C. 7: D7, 8:D0, 9:D5, 10: D2, 11: D3, 12: D4, 13: D1, 14: D6, 15-17: N.C. 18-20: Outputs of still unkonwn purpose (originate from the 7437). Maybe related to the BREAK key - this is the only key which does not generate an ASCII-Code and a strobe pulse. Maybe this helps someone who wants to restore/debug/analyze/reuse one of these units... Best regards, Erik. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Dec 9 09:11:25 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 07:11:25 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <200612081915.kB8JFH32035149@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: >From: "Bob Bradlee" > >Stiction is mostly caused by a breakdown in the lubricant. > >Over simplified, oil turns to varnish or tar. > Hi I have several friends that worked at Seagate when they had problems of stiction. It was not a lubricant problem. It was caused by the surfaces being too smooth. When to really smooth surfaces sit together for a long time, the air is squeezed out. Once the surfaces really touch, there is a thing called molecular adhesion. Anyone that has worked with guage blocks is familair with this. Seagate fixed the problem by roughing the surfaces enough so that they didn't quite sqeeze out enough air to adhere. The surfaces are lubed but not with petrolium greases so they don't break down to tars. As I recall, they used some type of synthetic oil and only in tiny amounts. It was just to keep the surfaces apart while it spun up. After that, the head was flying and no longer made contact. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC.? Get a free 90-day trial! http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/?href=http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Dec 9 09:36:26 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 09:36:26 -0600 Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <457AD7FA.9090102@brutman.com> Jay West wrote: > I have one of the parallel port to ethernet devices... a Xircom. I > wonder if anyone ever reverse engineered the user interface to the > parallel port for it :) > > Jay > Somebody tried - they were working on a Linux device driver for it, and you can search to find the results. In a nutshell, Xircom never released the specs, and it was too much of a pain to reverse engineer. Hence it is not supported by Linux. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat Dec 9 10:13:08 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:13:08 -0500 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200612091615.kB9GFNIl089075@keith.ezwind.net> The problems i saw were with old drives that ran 24/7 and were shut down to be moved to a new location. The problem occured when they cooled down. Once warmed back up, they could be powered down and back up as long as they did not cool down again. These were systems that had 30k -> 50k+ hours on them in 24/7 operation. I always figured it was bearings or bearing related lub problems. I have lost track of the number of cheep power supply and cpu fans that required a spin to get start again after they had cooled down. In the late 90's the cheep cpu fans they were putting in clones would last between 15k -> 20k hours. Changing fans kept some small service shops in business for several years around the turn of the century. I had never thought of the platters and heads being a cause of stiction. In a crude attempt to put things back on topic :-) My friend David had a stiction problem last year on a 3344 disk pack running on an IBM System 3. The head retracted to park and stuck to a very old and very soft rubber home stop. It did not release and come ready untill pushed from behind with a stick, via the inspection hole, to get it moveing again. Stiction comes in many forms from numerious reasons ..... Just some random thoughts Bob Bradlee On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 07:11:25 -0800, dwight elvey wrote: >>From: "Bob Bradlee" >> >>Stiction is mostly caused by a breakdown in the lubricant. >> >>Over simplified, oil turns to varnish or tar. >> >Hi >I have several friends that worked at Seagate when they had >problems of stiction. It was not a lubricant problem. It was >caused by the surfaces being too smooth. When to really >smooth surfaces sit together for a long time, the air is squeezed >out. Once the surfaces really touch, there is a thing called >molecular adhesion. >Anyone that has worked with guage blocks is familair with >this. >Seagate fixed the problem by roughing the surfaces enough >so that they didn't quite sqeeze out enough air to adhere. >The surfaces are lubed but not with petrolium greases >so they don't break down to tars. As I recall, they used some >type of synthetic oil and only in tiny amounts. It was just >to keep the surfaces apart while it spun up. After that, >the head was flying and no longer made contact. >Dwight >_________________________________________________________________ >All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial! >http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/? href=http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/? sc_cid=msn_hotmail From feedle at feedle.net Sat Dec 9 10:22:14 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 09:22:14 -0700 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! In-Reply-To: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> References: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1A90F2EA-E716-4CB7-AE56-F66B2BDD9BDE@feedle.net> On Dec 8, 2006, at 1:59 AM, Andrew Wiskow wrote: > Cottonwood BBS is back online and operational! > > After much trial and error, I've got all the right > pieces put together... So dust off your old modem, > and give Cottonwood BBS a call. It's presently the > only known Commodore dial-up BBS in existence! Andrew: Bless your heart, but here's a few pointers on what might make it work better. First off, for 99% of us in the universe nowadays, C64Term for the PC (as suggested on the website) simply won't work. Pretty much every computer sold in the last 10 years is equipped with a Winmodem, and real "hardware" modems have been impossible to find for the last 5. I personally don't know of a better solution, other than to use a C64 emulator and bind to whatever modem people have. I don't know what the answer is, but hopefully somebody can figure out a Windows- compatible solution. Which brings me to my next suggestion. I know you're trying to "keep it real" with the CBM 1670 1200bps modem, but as you point out, many modern modems have problems working with it. Oddly enough, one of the reason why is because many 1200bps modems don't do a modern negotiation, with the 2100Hz tone in front of it, they just answer with the Bell 2225 Hz tone. You can observe this: if you call a modern modem, it answers and plays a lower pitched tone before a higher pitched tone: that's the 2100 Hz tone followed by the 2225 Hz. The reason the 2100 Hz tone is important is many telco facilities (and even some VoIP ones) listen for that tone, and if they hear it will make a "best effort" to minimize noise cancellation and other stuff to make it easier for modems to communicate. Also, there's modulations on that lower pitched tone that give modern modems a clue as to what protocols the reception modem can support. This is important. These features weren't really commonly available until 2400bps modems became commonplace. My suggestion would be to acquire an RS-232 interface for your C-64, and use a modern modem.. even if you lock it at 1200 or 2400bps on the serial side (since the C64 and many BBS programs were notorious for not working much above 2400). Back in the day, few "serious" BBS hobbyists (even in the C64 camp) used Commodore modems for running a BBS: they had a number of "known faults" that made them poor choices. (Don't feel bad, I ran my first BBS on a 1660 [!] for a number of months) Another suggestion you might want to pass along to people connecting is to disable all the error correction and compression. This is probably why people aren't seeing the graphics mode prompt (as you hint to on your site). I don't know the fairly standard AT commands to make this happen, but they shouldn't be difficult to find. The "modern modem" suggestion would help here, as well: since it would support all the new-fangled compression modes, negotiation would be quicker and completed before the modem raised CD. Lastly, and this is more of a debatably helpful suggestion: have you considered just running the BBS on an emulator? My reasons for asking this are serious. First off, C64 hardware was notoriously flaky as a BBS platform when the hardware was new. In the fairly short lifetime of my C64-based BBS, I went through two power supplies, a number of disk drives, and countless diskettes (even on my low-traffic BBS, I observed that if I didn't swap out the floppies once a week, they'd develop errors). Now that the components of your BBS are approaching (or even exceeding, unless you have a fairly new vintage C64) 20 years old, they are increasingly fragile and even more likely to break. It was one thing in 1985 to replace a VIC-1541, and I'd hate to think if you're running something like an SFD-1001 what you'd have to go through to replace it. Additionally, emulation would allow people to use Telnet to connect, and would allow those of us with no functional landline (believe it or not, there's now a lot of people who depend solely on broadband- delivered VoIP and cellular exclusively) to play the home game. Just some suggestions. Otherwise, good effort, and as soon as I figure out how to get a CBMSCII terminal emulator to work on the Macintosh, I'll be calling! From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Dec 9 10:22:50 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:22:50 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <457A1185.6020700@mdrconsult.com> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> <457A1185.6020700@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <457AE2DA.5090509@gmail.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> I'm beginning to wonder if there's something in the water or food >> supply that's impairing the mental functioning of a good chunk of the >> population of the planet. Or maybe it's global warming - that seems to >> be the in-vogue 'problem' at the moment. > > Google "aspartame Donald Rumsfeld". Be sure your tinfoil hat is > properly tuned before reading. > > Seriously, though, the stuff is amazingly toxic, and proven psychoactive. I usually have a seriously bad reaction to it. I have to be really careful. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 9 10:23:53 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 11:23:53 -0500 Subject: magic-1 boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 8, 2006, at 6:25 PM, David Griffith wrote: > I'm attempting to build a Magic-1 using gEDA. Would anyone be > interested > in a set of boards for the Magic-1? I'm just pondering the idea right > now. Yes, absolutely, no doubt about it! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 9 10:39:18 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 11:39:18 -0500 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> References: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> Message-ID: <057107DB-314E-4D2D-976A-68666132E4BC@neurotica.com> On Dec 8, 2006, at 1:43 PM, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I've read several replies indicating that the drive needs to be > taken apart. > People have also advocated just "hitting" the drive to break the > stiction. > > Holding the drive and giving it a quick twist around the spindle > axis has always > worked for me and avoids potential problems with disassembly or > damage. > > Has anyone seen stiction on the IDE or later drives? The only > stiction I've seen > has always been on the 5 1/4" MFM/RLL type drives, and probably > ESDI/SCSI/SASI > as well although my experience is limited on those drives. > > Something else I've noticed is that if a drive has stiction, that > stiction will > return after the drive sets for a while again. Anyone know what > actually causes > stiction? The story I heard "back in the day" (which was at work, from a service bulletin of some sort, so I treat it with some credibility) is that designers chose the spindle lubricant unwisely in some models of drives, and it spun out onto the platters a bit and gummed up. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 9 10:40:45 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 11:40:45 -0500 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <200612090159.kB91xRUP012041@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200612090159.kB91xRUP012041@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Dec 8, 2006, at 8:59 PM, Brad Parker wrote: >> Something else I've noticed is that if a drive has stiction, that >> stiction >> will return after the drive sets for a while again. Anyone know >> what actually >> causes stiction? > > my dim recollection (back in the day I did actually talk to people > from > rodime, lapine, nec, etc about 10 & 20mb 3" st-506 drives) is that it > was combination of the media plating, coating on the platter and the > heads themselves. > > since there is no landing zone the heads set down on the media. if > the > media was very smooth and the lubricant too thick, the heads would > glue > themselves to the media. > > I suspect there is slightly more to it than that, but it's been a > while > for me. I know the firmware often did a lot to try and mitigate the > problem but I think in the end it was changes in lubricant/coating > which > made it go away. Ahh yes that corresponds exactly with my memory of the situation as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 9 10:45:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 08:45:29 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <06120909020101.22591@bell> References: , <45792AAC.24232.378355B4@cclist.sydex.com>, <06120909020101.22591@bell> Message-ID: <457A77A9.27361.2129158@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Dec 2006 at 9:02, joseph c lang wrote: > Actually My first draft was a 555. By the time all the requirements were met, > the component count had gotten out of hand. 7420,555,7438,handfull > of descretes... a single 20 pin package a crystal and a transistor didn't > seem like overkill. > And it would handle the creeping feature bloat My projects suffer from ;^) I happened to mention this to a customer yesterday who sells computerized scales and the like. His comment was that a PIC was very competitive with a 555, when one considered the external discrete component count and glue--although he admitted that a number of his products still use lots of 555s. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 9 10:55:44 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 11:55:44 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Dec 8, 2006, at 5:23 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm beginning to wonder if there's something in the water or food > supply that's impairing the mental functioning of a good chunk of > the population of the planet. I've wondered about that myself quite a bit in the past year or three. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 9 11:18:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 09:18:32 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: References: <200612081915.kB8JFH32035149@keith.ezwind.net>, Message-ID: <457A7F68.30292.230D317@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Dec 2006 at 7:11, dwight elvey wrote: > I have several friends that worked at Seagate when they had > problems of stiction. It was not a lubricant problem. It was > caused by the surfaces being too smooth. When to really > smooth surfaces sit together for a long time, the air is squeezed > out. Once the surfaces really touch, there is a thing called > molecular adhesion. > Anyone that has worked with guage blocks is familair with > this. That's the story that I got from the Seagate marketing engineer when I complained about new ST-225's occasionally showing this problem. . However, Wikipedia states that the problem really is heat and lubricants: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction So, the moral is "never trust a marketing guy", I guess. Cheers, Chuck From alhartman at yahoo.com Sat Dec 9 11:25:04 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 12:25:04 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612082145.kB8LimV8097268@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612082145.kB8LimV8097268@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <457AF170.5040605@yahoo.com> Dave, Seems perfectly fine and reasonable to me. You are dealing with a troll. I'm sure the KIM-1 is a fine computer, but it's not terribly well known except to early computing aficionados. I think you should ignore him. Your Apple II page is fine. The text is fine. It's truthful and relevant to the history of the Apple II. And thanks for providing the resources and great computing you do! Regards, Al Hartman Phila, PA > From: "Dave Dunfield" > > Hi guys, > > I've been having an esclating correspondance with a chap named > "Murray Balascak" (anyone know him?) - who contacted me regarding > his displeasure with my mention of the Apple-1 on the Apple-II page of > my site - here is what I have posted as part of my introdiuction to the > Apple-II: > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > In 1976, Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs formed the Apple Computer Company, > and built a home computer they called the "Apple 1" in their garage. Although it > required the users to provide their own cabinet, power supply, keyboard and > video monitor, it didn't require a separate terminal, and a simple BASIC interpreter > could be loaded with an optional cassette interface. Although it required a fairly > technical user to complete the system and make it usable, about 200 Apple 1s > were sold in the first year. > > The following year (1977), Apple refined the design, providing a keyboard and > power supply and packaging the machine in a attractive low-profile plastic cabinet > with simple connections for the video monitor and tape storage. Now - anyone > who could plug two connectors together could use this computer. The result, called > "Apple 2" was one of the most successful early personal computers, and sold > many thousands of units. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In Mr. Balascaks first correspondance, he stated that the KIM-1 was a far > better machine than the Apple-1, asked if I had succumbed to "the relentless > revisionism of the brand zealots?", and demanded that I "correct the above > reference to show the machine's irrelevance". > > In his second correspondance, he stated that I am spreading "Apple > propaganda", again stated that the KIM-1 was better, sold in higher > quantities and cheaper (I still do not know what the KIM-1 has to do > with an Apple-II page). > > In his third correspondance he acqused me of "posting lies and being > worse than useless by corrupting history into fiction". Again, he stated > that the KIM-1 was a far better machine and much cheaper. > > In his last email, he indicated that he believes I am responsable for the > degradation of the internet and the reason that it cannot be trusted as > a source of information. > > I don't know where this is coming from - I believe my reference to the > Apple-1 is accurate considering it's brevity - Apple was formed in 1976 > and operated out of Jobs basement. The Apple-1 was sold through the > homebrew computer club as well as a few of stores, and although I do > not have confirmed numbers of sales, I believe it was around 200 > units. > > It was never my intention to make a page about the Apple-1 (I don't have > one, and I only feature systems on my site which are in my collection)... > I believe at some point someone asked why I didn't mention the Apple-1 > so I added this one paragraph as part of the Apple-II history. I have no > other references to the Apple-1 (at least that I can recall) on my site. > > In all of my responses to him, I indicated that I am unwilling to change > the site based on the hearsay of one individual, especially when that > person has an apparent (in my opinion based on correspondance > received) bias for or against the material being questioned, however I > would be happy to revise the site in response to any documented > facts/evidence he can provide that the material I have is incorrect. > > All I have received in return is statements about how much better the > KIM-1 was (I make no such comparisons on my site), how expensive > the Apple-1 and Apple-II were (I post no such prices on my site), and > rants about a website that apparently lists Woz as the "inventor of > the single-board computer" (I make no such claim on my site). > > I should probably just ignore it - but the fact that I have been accused > of lying and deliberatly posting misinformation is disturbing to me ... > So - I throw it to the list - As a background statement showing that > Apple existed and sold a predecessor in small volumes for a time > before the Apple-II ... Is my posting above non-factual? If so, in > what way, and can you provide supporting documentation? > > Please keep in mind that I do not wish to post a page about the Apple-1, > only a single paragraph as a way of introducing the guys who built > the Apple-2. > > Regards, > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > > > ------------------------------ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 9 12:29:38 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:29:38 -0700 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <457AE2DA.5090509@gmail.com> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> <457A1185.6020700@mdrconsult.com> <457AE2DA.5090509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <457B0092.6070701@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Google "aspartame Donald Rumsfeld". Be sure your tinfoil hat is >> properly tuned before reading. >> >> Seriously, though, the stuff is amazingly toxic, and proven >> psychoactive. > > > I usually have a seriously bad reaction to it. I have to be really > careful. I guess I better stick to organic paper hats then! > Peace... Sridhar > > . > From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat Dec 9 12:30:35 2006 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 10:30:35 -0800 Subject: A 1935 example of the internet. Message-ID: <0b8401c71bc0$2e32a410$6601a8c0@downstairs2> Hugo Gernsback started the magazines that became Popular Electronics and Radio Electronics. He was known for his predictions on the future of electronics. In the February 1935 issue of Radio Craft (later Radio Electronics) he describes in some detail a future home radio that includes television and electronic delivery of the newspaper. It appears to allow two way communication. There is a copy for sale on ePay that shows the cover and some internal pages. RADIO CRAFT 1935 MAGAZINE PREDICTS FUTURE RADIO in 1950 Item number: 170058678360 Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 9 12:32:03 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:32:03 -0700 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <457B0123.1000407@jetnet.ab.ca> > I've wondered about that myself quite a bit in the past year or three. Sales of Macdonald's burgers/fries seem to be the only thing that comes to mind. > -Dave > From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Dec 9 12:35:38 2006 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 12:35:38 -0600 Subject: KIM-1 and Apple I Message-ID: <000001c71bc0$d32e82e0$176fa8c0@obie> If you haven't read the previously un-published Chapter 1.5 of Brian Bagnall's Commodore history, take a look here - http://www.commodorebook.com/contents/ch001.5%20TIM-KIM.pdf . No doubt the KIM was a significant and capable system but, IMHO, the real difference was intent - Chuck Peddle saw the KIM as a way to entice engineers into trying and buying his processor; Woz saw the Apple I as a true personal computer, though obviously that had a different meaning in 1976 than it did in 1981 or 2006. The KIM-1 had a tremendous impact (relatively speaking) because it provided a working system (or subsystem) with a common and reliable hardware configuration to 100s/1000s of people. The result was an early critical mass encouraging third party vendors (hardware and software) and the development of an enthusiastic user community. The Apple I never sold in any appreciable volume and may have been most important as an "enabler", validating Woz - to himself! - as a capable designer and validating Jobs - to himself! - as a visionary, though it would seem that Paul Terrell (and certainly Mike Markula) shared that vision as well. Terrell's financial commitment to Apple allowed Woz to build something much closer to his view of what he wanted - the Apple ][. My ][ cents - Jack -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 12/8/2006 12:53 PM From wizard at voyager.net Sat Dec 9 12:50:29 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 13:50:29 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1165690229.6751.10.camel@linux.site> On Sat, 2006-12-09 at 11:55 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 8, 2006, at 5:23 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > I'm beginning to wonder if there's something in the water or food > > supply that's impairing the mental functioning of a good chunk of > > the population of the planet. > > I've wondered about that myself quite a bit in the past year or > three. Likewise. In all seriousness, I think it has to do with continual exposure to flagrantly biased information. It's as if we have built in BS (bollocks for you Brits) filters, and after a while they get clogged with all the near-information they have to strain out. Dunno... The effect is certainly a "My side is always right and your side is always wrong" type of false dichotomy. It drives me batty to deal with this as often as I do. I recall that most people were reasonable twenty years ago, if not well-informed and brilliant. A point could be made to them, and acknowledged, and they entertained the idea that their side, while right for the most part, had occasional "bad" spots... but, not any more. Now, all you kids get off my lawn! You know, to drag this a little bit on-topic, this does NOT bode well for anything like new software development, or interest in older equipment and software. Simpler software to assist in decisions examines the simplest of facts, and reports on them. It would take modern capacities and speeds to massage the data so that it always comes to the pre-ordained conclusion, or to lose the data if it doesn't match "how things are" according to the user. Of course, DIS (Deliberately Ignorant Software) could well be the next "killer ap" that will take over the world. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From rcini at optonline.net Sat Dec 9 12:50:39 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 13:50:39 -0500 Subject: KIM-1 and Apple I In-Reply-To: <000001c71bc0$d32e82e0$176fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: <005901c71bc2$ec25e3e0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> This is very true. If you hear Woz speak, he talks about how the Apple I was the stepping stone and the II was what he really wanted to build form the beginning. In fact, He said that he designed the ][ from scratch in comparison to the I so he could achieve his goal. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jack Rubin Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 1:36 PM To: Classic Computer List Subject: KIM-1 and Apple I If you haven't read the previously un-published Chapter 1.5 of Brian Bagnall's Commodore history, take a look here - http://www.commodorebook.com/contents/ch001.5%20TIM-KIM.pdf . No doubt the KIM was a significant and capable system but, IMHO, the real difference was intent - Chuck Peddle saw the KIM as a way to entice engineers into trying and buying his processor; Woz saw the Apple I as a true personal computer, though obviously that had a different meaning in 1976 than it did in 1981 or 2006. The KIM-1 had a tremendous impact (relatively speaking) because it provided a working system (or subsystem) with a common and reliable hardware configuration to 100s/1000s of people. The result was an early critical mass encouraging third party vendors (hardware and software) and the development of an enthusiastic user community. The Apple I never sold in any appreciable volume and may have been most important as an "enabler", validating Woz - to himself! - as a capable designer and validating Jobs - to himself! - as a visionary, though it would seem that Paul Terrell (and certainly Mike Markula) shared that vision as well. Terrell's financial commitment to Apple allowed Woz to build something much closer to his view of what he wanted - the Apple ][. My ][ cents - Jack -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 12/8/2006 12:53 PM From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 9 12:53:59 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 10:53:59 -0800 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <20061209001341.17205.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200612082145.kB8LimVA097268@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <20061209001341.17205.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <457A95C7.15768.288380B@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 19:13, Ken Seefried wrote: > The following might come as a suprise: There are trolls on the internet. > There are psychos on the internet. There are irrational, obsessive, > socially retarded, self-important fanatics on the net. If you want to see REAL trolls, just check any of the newsfeeds (e.g. Yahoo) and their accompanying discussion forums. Some of the stuff posted is clearly intended to offend. Treat those posters in the same manner that one might treat a 3 year old who notices that he gets attention when he removes his pants in public. Curiously, most trolls DO seem to be male. --Chuck From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Dec 9 13:09:24 2006 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 13:09:24 -0600 Subject: KIM and SSM 6502 - Chuck Guzis In-Reply-To: <200612091800.kB9I0Yw9013718@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001c71bc5$8a8ea560$176fa8c0@obie> Responding to Chuck Guzis - > > (BTW, I still have a 2708 EPROM burner for a KIM-1 if anyone wants > it.) yes, please, if still available! > I'm trying to remember if it was Solid State Music who > offered the S- 100 6502 board. Does anyone recall? > I don't think SSM ever did a 6502 S100 board - the only one I know about is from CRGS in Pennsylvania. Jack -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 12/8/2006 12:53 PM From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 9 15:07:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 21:07:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <4579A479.29672.395F241A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 8, 6 05:44:25 pm Message-ID: > > On 9 Dec 2006 at 1:19, Tony Duell wrote: > > > No, I was wrong. According to the manual, the 'ready' signal depends on a > > clock signal that comes from a special track on one of the platters, > > picked up by a fixed head. The basic procedure if the drive won't go > > ready is to look at the output of this head's amplifier, if that's > > missing/incorrect to troubleshoot or replace the read/write PCB (and if > > that doesn't get it back, then the fault is inside the HDA and is not > > field repairable). If the output of the clock head amplifier is OK, then > > therer's a fault on the control PCB. > > Thanks, it's enough to get me started. I'll let you know if I'm > unsuccessful. OK, here are the actual procesdures from the manual : Check the DC volages at the control PCB J6 connector (to the read/write PCB) Pin J : +5V Pin E : -5V Pin 22 : +24V Pin B : +12V (If any of those are misisng/incorrect, there's a procedure to check them back through the actuator PCB, etc, but I think you can manage that...) OK, on to the test you need : Drive Not Ready. It assumes the power voltages are OK, and that the disk is rotating. Notes : 1) Ready indication will appea as a logical 1 on TP28 of the control PCB. 2) Ready will not become active for 1.5 minutes after AC and DC power are applied 3) The drive must be selected befroe Ready is available at the interface connector Test 1 : Check clock track amplitude at control PCB TP9 (must be more than 1.5V) Test 1 OK? No : Replace Read/Wrtie PCB [1] Test 1 OK ? No : Problem with clock head -- not field repairable Yes : go to test 2 Yes : Got to test 2 Test 2 : Check TP5 on control PCB for TTL level 500ns puleses every 2.2us Test 2 OK ? No : Replace control PCB [2] Yes : go to test 3 Test 3 : Check TP27 on control PCB for TTL level square wave of 70ns +/-5ns (14.2MHz) Test 3 OK ? No : Replace control PCB [3] Yes : go to test 4 Test 4 : Check TP26 of control PCB for a TTL level pulse 1.1us duration every 2oms (Index) Test 4 OK ? No : Replace control PCB [4] Yes : Test done ARD#'s notes [1] Check circuitry round 6B and 6D on the read/write PCB, these being the clock head amplifiers [2] Check round 2A and 1B(section b) on the control PCB. [3] This is the output of the phase-lock oscillator. Check Q3, 3D (oscillator), 2B, Q1, Q2 (phase detector), etc [4] Check counter 2E, register 1G, and associated gates -tony From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 9 15:23:02 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 14:23:02 -0700 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 09 Dec 2006 05:57:54 +0000. <457A5062.2030100@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In article <457A5062.2030100 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > Richard wrote: > > Sometimes one of them decides that because you won't escalate the > > flamewar, they need to make a wikipedia page where they bash you > > there. > > And usually a Wikipedia admin puts said page on Request For Deletion status. They did it by hiding it in a "criticisms" section of an existing page, but if you read between the lines its just one guy ragging on me with about 15% of the facts of any situation where he's bashing me. If I attempt to correct it on Wikipedia, then that's just taking his flame bait once again and turning a Wikipedia page into a "he said she said" kind of discussion. But as I say, the person in question did this only because I wouldn't take his flamebait on a discussion thread anymore. To respond in wikipedia is just feeding his desire to piss me off and nothing more. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alhartman at yahoo.com Sat Dec 9 15:31:47 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 16:31:47 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 40, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: <200612081504.kB8F4YqA089749@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612081504.kB8F4YqA089749@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <457B2B43.4030906@yahoo.com> If you can deal with Mailorder: http://www.affordablesurplus.com/syncom_floppy_diskette.asp And, Athana still seems to be selling them as well: http://www.athana.com/html/diskette.html Regards, Al Phila, PA > From: Warren Wolfe > > Anyway, diskettes are going the way of the dodo. I have several > older machines, and spent a good part of the last two days trying, > unsuccessfully, to find 5-1/4 inch diskettes for sale. They simply are > not carried any more. And, I live in the heart of a truly major retail > center -- I've been in EVERY major computer and electronics store, and > many of the minor ones in the last 48 hours. > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 9 15:32:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 13:32:09 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: References: <4579A479.29672.395F241A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 8, 6 05:44:25 pm, Message-ID: <457ABAD9.29681.3190231@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Dec 2006 at 21:07, Tony Duell wrote: > OK, here are the actual procesdures from the manual : [snip] Many thanks--I've got your notes safely stashed away. Hopefully it's not the custom controller in the same box... Cheers, Chuck From jim.beacon at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 9 07:02:30 2006 From: jim.beacon at ntlworld.com (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 13:02:30 -0000 Subject: ARC boards Message-ID: <004001c71b92$4a7c8c40$0200a8c0@p2deskto> I have a quantity of ARC(E) Ltd. boards, from a complex calculator, or small computer. They are in CHesham, Bucks, UK, collection only. A small donation would be welcome, but I'm not that bothered. There are a couple of largish boxes of the things. They go for scrap in a couple of weeks, if not claimed. Jim. Please see our website: www.g1jbg.co.uk From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Sat Dec 9 12:12:41 2006 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 12:12:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Dec 08, 2006 02:35:26 PM Message-ID: <200612091812.kB9ICffo020986@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> >I should probably just ignore it - but the fact that I have been accused >of lying and deliberatly posting misinformation is disturbing to me ... >So - I throw it to the list - As a background statement showing that >Apple existed and sold a predecessor in small volumes for a time >before the Apple-II ... Is my posting above non-factual? If so, in >what way, and can you provide supporting documentation? > Hi Dave, there's no reason for this guy to be flying off like he is. Nothing out of line in your entry, and he's probably just a bit eccentric. The only thing I could see factualy (nitpick) wise is (and it has nothing to do with his gripe however): >In 1976, Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs formed the Apple Computer Company, >and built a home computer they called the "Apple 1" in their garage. I would reword it a bit, as it makes it sound like Jobs had a hand in designing the Apple 1, which he did not. Likewise, when they decided to sell it they assembled it in Jobs's parents garage and not "their" garage. Probably something like: "In 1976, Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs formed the Apple Computer Company to sell Wozniak's computer, which they named the "Apple 1". Although it required the users to provide their own cabinet, power supply, keyboard and video monitor, it didn't require a seperate terminal as other computers of the time did. A simple BASIC interpreter could also be loaded with an optional casette interface. Although it required a fairly technical user to complete the system and make it usable, about 200 Apple 1's were assembled in Jobs' garage and sold in the first year." Marty From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 9 17:42:02 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 18:42:02 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <457A77A9.27361.2129158@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <45792AAC.24232.378355B4@cclist.sydex.com>, <06120909020101.22591@bell> <457A77A9.27361.2129158@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1B47D592-F7C8-4A45-BDA2-842128A65DD3@neurotica.com> On Dec 9, 2006, at 11:45 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Actually My first draft was a 555. By the time all the >> requirements were met, >> the component count had gotten out of hand. 7420,555,7438,handfull >> of descretes... a single 20 pin package a crystal and a transistor >> didn't >> seem like overkill. >> And it would handle the creeping feature bloat My projects suffer >> from ;^) > > I happened to mention this to a customer yesterday who sells > computerized scales and the like. His comment was that a PIC was > very competitive with a 555, when one considered the external > discrete component count and glue--although he admitted that a number > of his products still use lots of 555s. I can see that being the case when you need multiple related pulse trains or something like that...but to replace a single 555, I find this very difficult to believe. I've designed both into commercial products in the last few years...Sure, PICs are super cheap, but 555s in thousand-unit quantities cost less than a dime. As for the discrete components...Assuming you're running the PIC in internal oscillator mode (which saves you a crystal and two capacitors), you need a pullup resistor to MCLR, while a typical 555 oscillator circuit needs one or two resistors and a capacitor...so a capacitor and possible additional resistor. Add in the step of having to program the PIC (and maintain the codebase, documentation, etc)...no way. It seems to me that many of these types of attitudes stem from the "if it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old" mentality that has been adopted by the obedient mass of consumers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 9 17:41:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 15:41:56 -0800 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612091812.kB9ICffo020986@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Dec 08, 2006 02:35:26 PM, <200612091812.kB9ICffo020986@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <457AD944.20137.38FD4A9@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Dec 2006 at 12:12, Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: > "In 1976, Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs formed the Apple Computer Company > to sell Wozniak's computer, which they named the "Apple 1". Although it > required the users to provide their own cabinet, power supply, keyboard > and video monitor, it didn't require a seperate terminal as other > computers of the time did. A simple BASIC interpreter could also be > loaded with an optional casette interface. Although it required a fairly > technical user to complete the system and make it usable, about 200 Apple > 1's were assembled in Jobs' garage and sold in the first year." Someone needs to mention that Jobs and Wozniak also got a very sweet deal when they needed venture capital. Within a few years, the picture would change dramatically, with VC's requiring a majority of seats on the corporate board, large shares of the profit pie and veto power on any strategic decision--including seeking more venture capital. By about 1985, VCs had gotten very greedy and probably were responsible for the death of several startups. I was hired as a consultant to VCs for several of them to see what might be salvaged from a tilt-up filled with office furniture and incomplete production inventory. Inevitably it was after the engineering staff had been laid off, so record of any potentially valuable intellectual property ended up in the dumpster. The rest was usually auctioned off. Woz and Jobs were in the right place at the right time. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 9 17:43:50 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 18:43:50 -0500 Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <457AD7FA.9090102@brutman.com> References: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> <457AD7FA.9090102@brutman.com> Message-ID: <7FDADB23-1639-4533-ADA5-6D13E262C90C@neurotica.com> On Dec 9, 2006, at 10:36 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Somebody tried - they were working on a Linux device driver for it, > and you can search to find the results. In a nutshell, Xircom > never released the specs, and it was too much of a pain to reverse > engineer. Hence it is not supported by Linux. I could've sworn Linux supported these at one point, back in the early-mid 1990s. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Dec 9 18:02:05 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 18:02:05 -0600 Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <7FDADB23-1639-4533-ADA5-6D13E262C90C@neurotica.com> References: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> <457AD7FA.9090102@brutman.com> <7FDADB23-1639-4533-ADA5-6D13E262C90C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <457B4E7D.8060307@brutman.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 9, 2006, at 10:36 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> Somebody tried - they were working on a Linux device driver for it, >> and you can search to find the results. In a nutshell, Xircom never >> released the specs, and it was too much of a pain to reverse engineer. >> Hence it is not supported by Linux. > > I could've sworn Linux supported these at one point, back in the > early-mid 1990s. > > -Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Cape Coral, FL > > > > http://www.buzzard.me.uk/jonathan/pe3.html Mike From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 9 18:03:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 16:03:54 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <1B47D592-F7C8-4A45-BDA2-842128A65DD3@neurotica.com> References: , <457A77A9.27361.2129158@cclist.sydex.com>, <1B47D592-F7C8-4A45-BDA2-842128A65DD3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <457ADE6A.15942.3A3F04B@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Dec 2006 at 18:42, Dave McGuire wrote: > It seems to me that many of these types of attitudes stem from the > "if it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old" mentality that > has been adopted by the obedient mass of consumers. My reaction upon getting my first NE555 was "Isn't that just the most clever thing you've ever seen?--and in an 8 pin DIP, too!" You probably won't see many LS121/123/221s in modern circuits, but the lowly 555 still marches on. Cheers, Chuck From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat Dec 9 18:11:17 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 00:11:17 +0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 40, Issue 14 In-Reply-To: <200612080734.kB87YD5f085222@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612080734.kB87YD5f085222@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <046CB1AC-98AA-4CA0-BD8E-AFB0CABF92F1@microspot.co.uk> On 8 Dec, 2006, at 07:34, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 12:04:28 +1300 > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 40, Issue 15 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Could someone please explain the time warp which allows digest issue 14 to contain replies to messages in digest issue 15? One lister complains about top posting, but it is equally, if not more, confusing to read replies to messages before the message itself, and this happens a LOT. I realise the list is moderated and there will be a lag, but is there any reason the messages cannot be kept in order. Please! Roger Holmes From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 9 19:12:46 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 17:12:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 40, Issue 14 Message-ID: <110016.4880.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> I think the answer is to unsubscribe yourself from cctech and subscribe to cctalk. Posting is nearly realtime. I for one an not afraid of unmoderated lists. --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > On 8 Dec, 2006, at 07:34, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 22 > > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 12:04:28 +1300 > > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 40, Issue 15 > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > Could someone please explain the time warp which allows digest issue > 14 to > contain replies to messages in digest issue 15? > > One lister complains about top posting, but it is equally, if not > more, confusing > to read replies to messages before the message itself, and this > happens a LOT. > > I realise the list is moderated and there will be a lag, but is there > any reason the > messages cannot be kept in order. Please! > > Roger Holmes > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 9 19:18:35 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 17:18:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 40, Issue 14 Message-ID: <84742.11711.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Furthermorf, receiving individual posts could help too. Its always a crap shoot for me when deciding if its really worth my while to open a re:digest #... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Dec 9 19:44:46 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 20:44:46 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <457B668E.9070503@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 8, 2006, at 5:23 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> I'm beginning to wonder if there's something in the water or food >> supply that's impairing the mental functioning of a good chunk of the >> population of the planet. > > I've wondered about that myself quite a bit in the past year or three. I don't think it's that simple. I think there's a genetic disorder going around called "congenital idiocy". There should be a foundation funding research for a cure. Peace... Sridhar From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Dec 9 21:09:20 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 22:09:20 -0500 Subject: Stiction Message-ID: <01C71BDE.E8130A00@mse-d03> ----------------Original Message: Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 09:18:32 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Stiction To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <457A7F68.30292.230D317 at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 9 Dec 2006 at 7:11, dwight elvey wrote: > I have several friends that worked at Seagate when they had > problems of stiction. It was not a lubricant problem. It was > caused by the surfaces being too smooth. When to really > smooth surfaces sit together for a long time, the air is squeezed > out. Once the surfaces really touch, there is a thing called > molecular adhesion. > Anyone that has worked with guage blocks is familair with > this. That's the story that I got from the Seagate marketing engineer when I complained about new ST-225's occasionally showing this problem. . However, Wikipedia states that the problem really is heat and lubricants: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction So, the moral is "never trust a marketing guy", I guess. Cheers, Chuck -------------------- Reply: Or don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia; in my experience (quite a few Seagate ST-225's and 251's, and recently even a Conner IDE drive) it was always heads sticking to platters when the drive was shut down after running for a long time. But perhaps bearing lube was also a problem (that I just never ran across). mike From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Dec 9 21:31:09 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 21:31:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <457AD7FA.9090102@brutman.com> References: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> <457AD7FA.9090102@brutman.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Dec 2006, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Jay West wrote: > >> I have one of the parallel port to ethernet devices... a Xircom. I >> wonder if anyone ever reverse engineered the user interface to the >> parallel port for it :) > > Somebody tried - they were working on a Linux device driver for it, and > you can search to find the results. In a nutshell, Xircom never > released the specs, and it was too much of a pain to reverse engineer. > Hence it is not supported by Linux. Eh...them's fightin words^O^O^O^O^Othere's a challenge :) I guess I'll have to add this to my ever growing to-investigate/to-do list. Dunno where I'd find the adapters these days though. -Toth From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Dec 9 22:53:31 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 23:53:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! In-Reply-To: <1A90F2EA-E716-4CB7-AE56-F66B2BDD9BDE@feedle.net> References: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> <1A90F2EA-E716-4CB7-AE56-F66B2BDD9BDE@feedle.net> Message-ID: <200612100458.XAA09327@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > First off, for 99% of us in the universe nowadays, C64Term for the PC > (as suggested on the website) simply won't work. Pretty much every > computer sold in the last 10 years is equipped with a Winmodem, and > real "hardware" modems have been impossible to find for the last 5. Of all the places I would hope people wouldn't be stuck with only the latest Wintel trash (and yes, I consider a computers such as you describe "trash")... ...but I suppose we can't all be that lucky. > I personally don't know of a better solution, other than to use a C64 > emulator and bind to whatever modem people have. I don't know what > the answer is, but hopefully somebody can figure out a > Windows-compatible solution. VMware running a real OS, presenting the winmodem as an ordinary serial port (of whatever type it deos for serial ports)? I know someone who does that for, IIRC, video - his laptop's video (or whatever it is) isn't understood by his OS of choice (a Unix variant, don't recall which one), so he runs Windows and VMware, with *nothing* else running directly under Windows; everything "real" runs on the VMware emulated machine. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Dec 9 23:15:26 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 00:15:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200612100517.AAA24722@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I have a list of tapes of which I have little knowledge. > Currently I cannot (easily) read these tapes. > Is there anything of interest. I think they are all for RICS. > Here are texts from labels: I'd love to get copies of the bits on these tapes. I'm not sure how best to make that happen, especially as the footer on your mail implies you're in Finland (and I'm in North America). I think I have a working TK50 drive, but getting the tapes to me would be mildly expensive (and somewhat risky given the chance of their getting lost or damaged in transit). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Dec 10 00:22:23 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 22:22:23 -0800 Subject: Pro-Log 1702 programmer in BC, Canada? References: <474C8379.5020506@compsys.to> Message-ID: <457BA79A.FD7AA21@cs.ubc.ca> Hi John, sorry I should have gotten back to you sooner. I have RE'd the 1702 plug-in and captured all the data from the 1702s in my programmer, so the 1702 plug-in is ready to be delivered. In part, I've just been waiting on a day of decent weather to coordinate with you and cycle in to Main St. with it. (phone: 604-469-1888) John Robertson wrote: > > Someone from this group, located here in BC, had called me a month > ago about his Pro-Log Eprom programmer that did 1702s. I would like > to get in touch with him as I do not have his phone number. > > Thanks, > > John :-#)# From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Dec 9 20:03:30 2006 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 02:03:30 +0000 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <200612091615.kB9GFNIl089075@keith.ezwind.net> References: Message-ID: <20061210065845.WPVG6280.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > In the late 90's the cheep cpu fans they were putting in clones would last between 15k -> 20k hours. Changing > fans kept some small service shops in business for several years around the turn of the century. > Same here back then from early 90's to 2000 or so, we replace fans on anything from 40mm all the way to 80mm bec of bearings dying. Now no longer since we just replace the heatsink or a power supply. > My friend David had a stiction problem last year on a 3344 disk pack running on an IBM System 3. The head > retracted to park and stuck to a very old and very soft rubber home stop. It did not release and come ready untill > pushed from behind with a stick, via the inspection hole, to get it moveing again. > > Stiction comes in many forms from numerious reasons ..... > Bob Bradlee I had several micropolis 13xx series get rubber stop stiction that glued the arm to that rubber stop and not letting arm go. Had to open it and push arm off rubber for data recovery. Cheers, Wizard From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 10 02:28:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 00:28:48 -0800 Subject: Followup: Hazeltine "Computer" Message-ID: <457B54C0.26841.5722977@cclist.sydex.com> Well, I finally got around to prowling through the 5.25" floppy archives for the so-called "Hazeltine" computer diskettes. I found 'em--in the last 10 diskettes in the file(!). In the meantime, I ran across all sorts of names of systems not heard recently, such as "Peoples World" and "Pan Asia". The diskettes contain only the legend "Hazeltine CP/M" and date from about 1982 or so. The bad news is that the boot tracks contain a CP/M system image, along with CBIOS, but no clue is given as to the system name. Looking at the directory, there was a disk utility to format and surface copy, but no identification there either. There was also a copy of Spellguard and Wordstar--aha! Wordstar almost always contains the name of at the least the terminal, if not the system. Well, it does--but the terminal listed is an ADDS Viewpoint--and no system named. :( Bottom line is that I have nothing to contribute to the "Hazeltime Computer" legend--and, with the discovery of the ADDS terminal code, don't even know why the customer insisted on calling it a Hazeltine (but he did--I found the letter in my files. So--shrug! My guess is that the "computer, given the date" may have been housed in the same box as the floppy drives.--and that a Hazeltine terminal was connected to it. But I didn't think that a Hazeltine had cotnrol sequences anything like an ADDS Viewpoint. Cheers, Chuck From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Dec 10 03:06:41 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 09:06:41 +0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 40, Issue 14 In-Reply-To: <110016.4880.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <110016.4880.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <457BCE21.6000309@gjcp.net> Chris M wrote: > I think the answer is to unsubscribe yourself from > cctech and subscribe to cctalk. Posting is nearly > realtime. I for one an not afraid of unmoderated > lists. Furthermore, I can't see how the cctech list is that helpful - surely if you remove the off-topic posts you lose a lot of useful-but-borderline stuff? You certainly lose a lot of the interesting discussions. As I've said before, there are people on this list who have been around a lot longer than I have, who have some really interesting things to tell about stuff that isn't necessarily "on-topic" but provides a lot of context to the on-topic discussions. Like 110v hot-dog cookers. I'd hate for this list to be as dry and rigidly topic-focused as (say) the Debian lists. They can be so narrow as to be almost worthless. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Dec 10 03:21:38 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 09:21:38 +0000 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <457ADE6A.15942.3A3F04B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <457A77A9.27361.2129158@cclist.sydex.com>, <1B47D592-F7C8-4A45-BDA2-842128A65DD3@neurotica.com> <457ADE6A.15942.3A3F04B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <457BD1A2.4090506@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Dec 2006 at 18:42, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> It seems to me that many of these types of attitudes stem from the >> "if it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old" mentality that >> has been adopted by the obedient mass of consumers. > > My reaction upon getting my first NE555 was "Isn't that just the most > clever thing you've ever seen?--and in an 8 pin DIP, too!" Similar to my first thoughts on playing with an NE555. My second thought on using it was "where the fsck is all this hash on the supply line coming from?!" Gordon From wdg3rd at comcast.net Sun Dec 10 04:15:32 2006 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:15:32 +0000 Subject: A 1935 example of the internet. Message-ID: <121020061015.3774.457BDE440003687400000EBE22135285730B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message: 2 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 10:30:35 -0800 From: "Michael Holley" Subject: A 1935 example of the internet. To: Message-ID: <0b8401c71bc0$2e32a410$6601a8c0 at downstairs2> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original > Hugo Gernsback started the magazines that became Popular Electronics and > Radio Electronics. He was known for his predictions on the future of > electronics. In the February 1935 issue of Radio Craft (later Radio > Electronics) he describes in some detail a future home radio that includes > television and electronic delivery of the newspaper. It appears to allow two > way communication. Actually, he described that system earlier than that in his fiction, a novel published in 1929 (but I think was serialized in Amazing Stories first and another source says it was written in 1911) titled _Ralph 124C41+_. (For those who don't know, Hugo Gernsback created the first magazines dedicated to science fiction, and the annual Hugo Awards, SF's "Oscars" as it were, are named after him). The novel is full of cliches. Well, they're cliches now. They weren't then. -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net When you let people do whatever they want, you get Woodstock. When you let governments do whatever they want, you get Auschwitz. Doug Newman From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Dec 10 06:54:44 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 07:54:44 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612091812.kB9ICffo020986@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Dec 08, 2006 02:35:26 PM Message-ID: <200612101200.kBAC07eM030768@hosting.monisys.ca> > Hi Dave, there's no reason for this guy to be flying off like he is. > Nothing out of line in your entry, and he's probably just a bit eccentric. > The only thing I could see factualy (nitpick) wise is (and it has nothing > to do with his gripe however): ... Suggested new wording: > "In 1976, Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs formed the Apple Computer Company > to sell Wozniak's computer, which they named the "Apple 1". Although it > required the users to provide their own cabinet, power supply, keyboard > and video monitor, it didn't require a seperate terminal as other > computers of the time did. A simple BASIC interpreter could also be > loaded with an optional casette interface. Although it required a fairly > technical user to complete the system and make it usable, about 200 Apple > 1's were assembled in Jobs' garage and sold in the first year." Marty, Thanks, and I agree - I have updated the site to reflect these changes. And to everyone else - thanks for the feedback and encouragement. To paraphrase Spock "I shall give this individual all the consideration he is due". (I love quoting fictional people) Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 08:58:25 2006 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 09:58:25 -0500 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! Message-ID: <4affc5e0612100658m47f60f8g7c008331debbd0d5@mail.gmail.com> > From: der Mouse > > I personally don't know of a better solution, other than to use a C64 > > emulator and bind to whatever modem people have. I don't know what > > the answer is, but hopefully somebody can figure out a > > Windows-compatible solution. > > VMware running a real OS, presenting the winmodem as an ordinary serial > port (of whatever type it deos for serial ports)? Actually, it might be worth checking out USB modems: I think many actually attach as a regular USB serial port that has a modem attached to it - though it's all within a single blob. Not having a USB-to-serial adapter myself I just built myself a dummy phone line (12V battery, 2 caps and a resistor) so my modern stuff (Macs with modems but no serial ports) can talk to my Amiga (and other stuff) via an external modem set to auto-answer. Both on my server (B&W G3 running NetBSD) and my laptop (G4) the modem responds to good old AT commands... This leads me to suspect that the Apple USB modem also will respond to AT commands. The only danger is that it might want firmware to be loaded at attach time from the host to the device (like my %^&!ing MIDI adapter!) Joe. From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 09:17:44 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:17:44 -0500 Subject: Any early DSP fans? Message-ID: I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is interested in early DSP chips? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Dec 10 09:23:51 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 07:23:51 -0800 Subject: Any early DSP fans? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "9000 VAX" > >I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is interested in >early DSP chips? Hi I have a developement sdk for the Intel 2920 chip. I've played with it a little. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Dec 10 09:30:14 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 07:30:14 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <01C71BDE.E8130A00@mse-d03> Message-ID: >From: M H Stein >----------------Original Message: > >Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 09:18:32 -0800 >From: "Chuck Guzis" >Subject: Re: Stiction >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Message-ID: <457A7F68.30292.230D317 at cclist.sydex.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >On 9 Dec 2006 at 7:11, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I have several friends that worked at Seagate when they had > > problems of stiction. It was not a lubricant problem. It was > > caused by the surfaces being too smooth. When to really > > smooth surfaces sit together for a long time, the air is squeezed > > out. Once the surfaces really touch, there is a thing called > > molecular adhesion. > > Anyone that has worked with guage blocks is familair with > > this. > >That's the story that I got from the Seagate marketing engineer when >I complained about new ST-225's occasionally showing this problem. . > >However, Wikipedia states that the problem really is heat and >lubricants: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction > >So, the moral is "never trust a marketing guy", I guess. > >Cheers, >Chuck > >-------------------- Reply: > >Or don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia; in my experience >(quite a few Seagate ST-225's and 251's, and recently even a Conner >IDE drive) it was always heads sticking to platters when the drive >was shut down after running for a long time. But perhaps bearing lube >was also a problem (that I just never ran across). > >mike Hi I got my information from enginers that actually worked on the problem. I would trust them over Wikipedia. I do believe that bearing could go dry. I've had to fix a number of older floppy drives with bearing replacements. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Dec 10 09:36:41 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 07:36:41 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <057107DB-314E-4D2D-976A-68666132E4BC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >From: Dave McGuire > >On Dec 8, 2006, at 1:43 PM, Marvin Johnston wrote: >>I've read several replies indicating that the drive needs to be taken >>apart. >>People have also advocated just "hitting" the drive to break the >>stiction. >> >>Holding the drive and giving it a quick twist around the spindle axis has >>always >>worked for me and avoids potential problems with disassembly or damage. >> >>Has anyone seen stiction on the IDE or later drives? The only stiction >>I've seen >>has always been on the 5 1/4" MFM/RLL type drives, and probably >>ESDI/SCSI/SASI >>as well although my experience is limited on those drives. >> >>Something else I've noticed is that if a drive has stiction, that >>stiction will >>return after the drive sets for a while again. Anyone know what actually >>causes >>stiction? > > The story I heard "back in the day" (which was at work, from a service >bulletin of some sort, so I treat it with some credibility) is that >designers chose the spindle lubricant unwisely in some models of drives, >and it spun out onto the platters a bit and gummed up. > > -Dave > Hi I find this hard to believe. If any of the lub leaked onto the surface, it would surely cause the head to crash one spin up. On the 225 I had, it always worked fine after a smack on the side. Anything like steaks of lub from the bearing would have destroyed the disk in no time. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Dec 10 10:15:41 2006 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:15:41 -0600 Subject: video monitors available Message-ID: <000001c71c76$761d7870$176fa8c0@obie> I've got about a dozen Sony Trinitron PVM-1380 color video monitors available. These are dual-channel composite video/mono audio - great for use with your Apple ][, Atari 800, Commodore 64, etc. Very nice commercial grade in very good condition. Removed from our school language lab, so may be "personalized" cosmetically but nothing objectionable. Free for pickup - I will not ship but I can store them through January. Any remainder will be scrapped in February. Jack 847.424.7320 work -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/581 - Release Date: 12/9/2006 3:41 PM From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Dec 10 10:17:40 2006 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:17:40 -0600 Subject: video monitors available - Evanston, Illinois Message-ID: <000101c71c76$bc47f6e0$176fa8c0@obie> I've got about a dozen Sony Trinitron PVM-1380 color video monitors available. These are dual-channel composite video/mono audio - great for use with your Apple ][, Atari 800, Commodore 64, etc. Very nice commercial grade in very good condition. Removed from our school language lab, so may be "personalized" cosmetically but nothing objectionable. Free for pickup - I will not ship but I can store them through January. Any remainder will be scrapped in February. Located in Evanston, Illinois. Jack 847.424.7320 work -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/581 - Release Date: 12/9/2006 3:41 PM From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Dec 10 10:27:28 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:27:28 +0100 Subject: ASR 33 repair tips sought. Message-ID: <457C3570.3060904@bluewin.ch> After shelving the silly idea of converting my machine to 220V ( you guys were right, my "native 220V" machine has a big transformer on the righthand side of the typing unit, and a 115 V motor... ) I still needed to get them running. My latest ASR 33 comes out quite nicely after a removal of dried grease and reoiling and seems to be fully functional, just drops a bit from time to time when using the keyboard. (i.e. LSB missing )I hope a cleaning of the keyboard contacts wil take care of that . My second, older machine however has more severe malfuntioning : it drops bits every second character, and often generates extra characters, @ being a favorite. I assume the error is inside the keyboard, as both units type ascii text from a papertape without a hitch. But what failure mode would cause extra characters from the keyboard ? Jos From RMeenaks at olf.com Sun Dec 10 10:44:24 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 11:44:24 -0500 Subject: Any early DSP fans? References: Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B0F10@cpexchange.olf.com> How early?? I am specifically looking for any TI C40 and Motorola 9600 DSP stuff... Cheers, Ram -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of dwight elvey Sent: Sun 12/10/2006 10:23 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Any early DSP fans? >From: "9000 VAX" > >I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is interested in >early DSP chips? Hi I have a developement sdk for the Intel 2920 chip. I've played with it a little. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline From Fixer7526 at wmconnect.com Sun Dec 10 08:30:06 2006 From: Fixer7526 at wmconnect.com (Fixer7526 at wmconnect.com) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 09:30:06 EST Subject: 1702 EPROM's Message-ID: Hello, Would you please post the following message. I am looking for someone who can copy 1702 EPROM's. Contact me at Fixer7526 at wmconnect.com . Thanks, Alan From vax at purdue.edu Sun Dec 10 09:52:19 2006 From: vax at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:52:19 -0500 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! In-Reply-To: <200612100458.XAA09327@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> <1A90F2EA-E716-4CB7-AE56-F66B2BDD9BDE@feedle.net> <200612100458.XAA09327@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200612101052.19846.vax@purdue.edu> On Saturday 09 December 2006 23:53, der Mouse wrote: > > First off, for 99% of us in the universe nowadays, C64Term for the > > PC (as suggested on the website) simply won't work. Pretty much > > every computer sold in the last 10 years is equipped with a > > Winmodem, and real "hardware" modems have been impossible to find > > for the last 5. Try looking here: http://search.ebay.com/us-robotics I'm also sure that someone on this list has a stash of serial modems that they'd sell (or maybe even send for shipping costs). If you don't have a serial port, or a PCI/ISA slot, then find a less crufty computer to use. :/ > Of all the places I would hope people wouldn't be stuck with only the > latest Wintel trash (and yes, I consider a computers such as you > describe "trash")... > > ...but I suppose we can't all be that lucky. You only can't find a hardware modem if you're too /lazy/ to spend time trying to find one. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac From cc at corti-net.de Sun Dec 10 12:29:11 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 19:29:11 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tektronix 4010 Message-ID: Hello, I'm looking for the schematics from the maintenance manual for the Tektronix 4010. There are the chapters 1 to 6 on pdp8.net but the important chapter 7 is missing. Is there any online copy of this part available? Thanks, Christian PS: I also have a Tektronix 4012 in the cellar; are there any manuals for this model? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 10 12:33:20 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:33:20 -0500 Subject: Any early DSP fans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <114D4867-23F6-4EB1-BF90-3FACF5B03B3A@neurotica.com> On Dec 10, 2006, at 10:17 AM, 9000 VAX wrote: > I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is > interested in > early DSP chips? That depends on what you mean by "early". I really like the Motorola DSP56001 chips (I've hacked on them a bit, and I have a tray of new ones just waiting for a cool project) and I've sniffed around at the Analog Devices ADSP-2100 chips once I found a stash of them...they look rather nifty as well, so they're also waiting for a cool project. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 10 12:36:20 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:36:20 -0500 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2006, at 10:36 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >>> I've read several replies indicating that the drive needs to be >>> taken apart. >>> People have also advocated just "hitting" the drive to break the >>> stiction. >>> >>> Holding the drive and giving it a quick twist around the spindle >>> axis has always >>> worked for me and avoids potential problems with disassembly or >>> damage. >>> >>> Has anyone seen stiction on the IDE or later drives? The only >>> stiction I've seen >>> has always been on the 5 1/4" MFM/RLL type drives, and probably >>> ESDI/SCSI/SASI >>> as well although my experience is limited on those drives. >>> >>> Something else I've noticed is that if a drive has stiction, >>> that stiction will >>> return after the drive sets for a while again. Anyone know what >>> actually causes >>> stiction? >> >> The story I heard "back in the day" (which was at work, from a >> service bulletin of some sort, so I treat it with some >> credibility) is that designers chose the spindle lubricant >> unwisely in some models of drives, and it spun out onto the >> platters a bit and gummed up. > > I find this hard to believe. If any of the lub leaked onto the > surface, it would surely cause the head to crash one spin > up. On the 225 I had, it always worked fine after a smack > on the side. Anything like steaks of lub from the bearing > would have destroyed the disk in no time. I'd have thought that too, but that's what the bulletin said so I believed it at the time. I don't know what the flying heights were in those old drives but I'm sure they were nowhere near as low as modern drives. But you mentioned "225"...As in Seagate ST-225? I've never heard of stiction problems with those (I have used quite a few of them, and I currently have a few in DEC machines as RD-31s)...I wasn't aware that they could develop such problems. I will keep an eye on mine! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 10 12:38:43 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:38:43 -0500 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! In-Reply-To: <200612101052.19846.vax@purdue.edu> References: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> <1A90F2EA-E716-4CB7-AE56-F66B2BDD9BDE@feedle.net> <200612100458.XAA09327@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200612101052.19846.vax@purdue.edu> Message-ID: <92F1120A-87C3-46D9-9480-976069C01DBF@neurotica.com> On Dec 10, 2006, at 10:52 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > You only can't find a hardware modem if you're too /lazy/ to spend > time > trying to find one. :) I have to agree. I trashed hundreds of them earlier this year in Maryland (Digex's old dialin banks, stuck in a warehouse...everything from 14.4K to 33.6K), and I rarely trash anything. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From g-wright at att.net Sun Dec 10 13:09:54 2006 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 19:09:54 +0000 Subject: CMD CDU 700/m Manual needed (SCSI unibus card) Message-ID: <121020061909.12432.457C5B820002A4A30000309021603831169B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, It seems I can find the CMD CDU720 card infomation but nothing on the CDU 700 which was an earlier version (87,88 ) The switch and jumper settings are different. Anyone point me in the right direction. Jumper settings are my first need. Thanks, Jerry From cc at corti-net.de Sun Dec 10 13:10:51 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:10:51 +0100 (CET) Subject: General Automation Minicomputers Message-ID: Hello, I'm looking for documentation and software for the GA SPC-16 (SPC-16/65 to be precise) and the GA-16/460. They seem to be very rare as there's practically nothing about them on the net. I need to build a memory board for the SPC-16 because I have none in my machine, or will a memory board from the GA-16 work in the SPC-16? Christian From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 10 13:05:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 12:05:15 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4010 In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Dec 2006 19:29:11 +0100. Message-ID: In article , Christian Corti writes: > I'm looking for the schematics from the maintenance manual for the > Tektronix 4010. There are the chapters 1 to 6 on pdp8.net but the > important chapter 7 is missing. Is there any online copy of this part > available? Its not the 4010, but the 4014 is very similar to the 4010. I have both. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 10 13:01:03 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 12:01:03 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 40, Issue 14 In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Dec 2006 09:06:41 +0000. <457BCE21.6000309@gjcp.net> Message-ID: In article <457BCE21.6000309 at gjcp.net>, Gordon JC Pearce writes: > Furthermore, I can't see how the cctech list is that helpful - surely if > you remove the off-topic posts you lose a lot of useful-but-borderline > stuff? You certainly lose a lot of the interesting discussions. You lose more than that -- I don't send stuff to the cctech list at all; it all goes to cctalk. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 10 12:59:11 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 11:59:11 -0700 Subject: Any early DSP fans? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:17:44 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "9000 VAX" writes: > I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is interested in > early DSP chips? I have several vintage machines that depend on AT&T DSP32C chips to do their business. The ESV workstation used them for per-vertex processing and scan conversion; a custom VLSI chip that I wrote test code for does span and frame buffer processing. The AT&T Pixel Machine uses the DSP32C to perform all its processing, I think. I also have a TMS320C25 development kit that I guess is "vintage" by now, although it wasn't at the time I bought it :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 10 13:02:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 12:02:44 -0700 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:38:43 -0500. <92F1120A-87C3-46D9-9480-976069C01DBF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I got a pile of ISA modem cards if anyone needs one for cost of shipping. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cc at corti-net.de Sun Dec 10 13:18:19 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:18:19 +0100 (CET) Subject: Texas Instruments 960B Message-ID: Hello, does anybody have bits for the TI 960B (not 960A) minicomputer, e.g. software, schematics etc. ? I'd like to get this system running again. Thanks, Christian From cc at corti-net.de Sun Dec 10 13:26:08 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:26:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: BASF 6114 disk drive Message-ID: Hello, I have one of those "washing machine" disk drive which uses media with 11 platters in nearly mint condition (heads are locked, test protocol from the manufacturer is included). I think that this is a rebaged CDC or Memorex drive. I'd like to use this drive and therefore need any kind of manual for the BASF 6114. My idea is to check out the drive and disk packs and then let some students build an interface that connects this drive to a SCSI bus ;-)) Christian From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 10 13:42:40 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 11:42:40 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4010 and General Automation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457C6330.7000007@sbcglobal.net> I have the service manual for the 4010. I can scan some of the schematics if you are looking for something in particular. I can also get the manual to Al at bitsavers if he has time to scan it. The schematics are the large fold-out sheets, not too easy to scan. Also, I have a GA SPC-16/80 system, not yet running, but I have a whole box of paper tape software for it. I'm not sure what's there but I will try and make a list. Possibly there's something useful in the box. I also have some documentation for the system, but no schematics that I have found yet. Here's a partial list of the SPC-16 manuals I have: Cap-16 Assembler SPC-16 Fortran IV Commercial Fortran SPC-16 COBOL SPC-16 System Processor reference manual SPC-16/40,45,60,65,80,85 system reference SPC-16/40,45,60,65,80,85 maintenance manual Bob Christian Corti wrote: > Hello, > > I'm looking for the schematics from the maintenance manual for the > Tektronix 4010. There are the chapters 1 to 6 on pdp8.net but the > important chapter 7 is missing. Is there any online copy of this part > available? > > Thanks, > Christian > > PS: > I also have a Tektronix 4012 in the cellar; are there any manuals for > this model? > From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Dec 10 14:33:09 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 21:33:09 +0100 Subject: new DEC printset scans Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F834@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi all, I got a new pile of field maintenance print sets ready to be scanned. I checked bitsavers, and did not find the following. Let me know if some of these are already scanned, and which should be scanned first ... Here is the list. MP00809 11/44 system MP01377 11/750F MP01390 750PCS MP01024 KA750 MP01269 FP750 assembly MP00858 L0011 MP01404 L0016 MP01398 M8750 MP01020 H7104-C MP01021 H7104-D MP01022 875 controller MP00063 VSV01 MP00965 DMF32 MP02379 DELQA MP00742 MS11-M MP00021 MS11-E MP01239 MSV11-P MP00424 H333 and some Engineering Drawings: DD11-D KW11-P TU10 DECmagtape and this one which is not the best copy: DT07 (half inch thick stack!) greetz, - Henk, PA8PDP This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Dec 10 15:06:29 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 21:06:29 -0000 Subject: new DEC printset scans In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F834@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <009001c71c9f$11afcc20$5f04010a@uatempname> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > MP00809 11/44 system > MP00021 MS11-E Done by some chap named Henk :-) > MP01377 11/750F > MP01390 750PCS > MP01024 KA750 > MP01404 L0016 > MP01398 M8750 > MP01020 H7104-C > MP01021 H7104-D > MP01022 875 controller > MP00965 DMF32 > MP01239 MSV11-P > KW11-P I've done these, check on Manx to see if yours are the same variant (or just scan the others first - can't have too many copies :-)) Antonio From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 10 12:59:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:59:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <457ABAD9.29681.3190231@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 9, 6 01:32:09 pm Message-ID: > > On 9 Dec 2006 at 21:07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > OK, here are the actual procesdures from the manual : [snip] > > Many thanks--I've got your notes safely stashed away. Hopefully it's > not the custom controller in the same box... If you need any more help with the electronics of the drive itself, I have the service manual. It's got some board-swapping flowcharts in the first part (that's what I produced that 'procedure' from), but the second bit is the schematics. So I can probably figure it out. But if the problem is inside the HDA (maybe a damaged clock head or track, this AFAIK is a fixed head that always reads the same track off one of the platters) or if the problem is in the cotnroller, which I know nothing about (what is the machine, BTW?) then I probably won't be much use. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 10 15:07:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 21:07:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR 33 repair tips sought. In-Reply-To: <457C3570.3060904@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Dec 10, 6 05:27:28 pm Message-ID: > But what failure mode would cause extra characters from the keyboard ? When you press a key, you relase a lever at the right side of the keyboard. This rotates (front end rises), turning the well-known H-plate that links the keybaord to the typing unit. This, in turn, releases the trasnmitter clutch. At the end of the transmit cycle, the H-plate is forced back again by a cam on the trasnmit shaft in the typing unit, which turns the trip lever in the keyboard back again. At which point this lever has to be latched by a catch in the keyboard (this is the catch that's released when you press any key). Well, if that catch is sticking, or there's an incorrect adjustment somewhere in the transmit trip linkage, then the thing might will not latch up every time, casuing the trasnmit shaft to make 2 revolutions, thus sending extra characters. -tony From brain at jbrain.com Sun Dec 10 15:32:57 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 15:32:57 -0600 Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP In-Reply-To: References: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> <457AD7FA.9090102@brutman.com> Message-ID: <457C7D09.90607@jbrain.com> Tothwolf wrote: > On Sat, 9 Dec 2006, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> Jay West wrote: >> >>> I have one of the parallel port to ethernet devices... a Xircom. I >>> wonder if anyone ever reverse engineered the user interface to the >>> parallel port for it :) >> >> Somebody tried - they were working on a Linux device driver for it, >> and you can search to find the results. In a nutshell, Xircom never >> released the specs, and it was too much of a pain to reverse >> engineer. Hence it is not supported by Linux. > > Eh...them's fightin words^O^O^O^O^Othere's a challenge :) > > I guess I'll have to add this to my ever growing to-investigate/to-do > list. Dunno where I'd find the adapters these days though. > > -Toth If you'd spoke up sooner, I had 3 on eBay a few weeks back. They were rotting here, and I wanted them out. The were PE3's If I find another, I'll note it to the list. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 10 15:42:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:42:05 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: References: <457ABAD9.29681.3190231@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 9, 6 01:32:09 pm, Message-ID: <457C0EAD.28008.8486D4C@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Dec 2006 at 18:59, Tony Duell wrote: > But if the problem is inside the HDA (maybe a damaged clock head or > track, this AFAIK is a fixed head that always reads the same track off > one of the platters) or if the problem is in the cotnroller, which I know > nothing about (what is the machine, BTW?) then I probably won't be much use. It's an external disk drive for a business micro. Protocol is GPIB and the controller is a very large PCB with lots of bit-slice logic on it, bearing the logo "Microsystems Associates". Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 10 15:47:00 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:47:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Followup: Hazeltine "Computer" In-Reply-To: <457B54C0.26841.5722977@cclist.sydex.com> References: <457B54C0.26841.5722977@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061210134556.I23221@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 10 Dec 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > So--shrug! My guess is that the "computer, given the date" may have > been housed in the same box as the floppy drives.--and that a > Hazeltine terminal was connected to it. . . . had a customer who insisted that his computer was an ADM3a. He was running a Morrow with a terminal. From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 16:01:41 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:01:41 -0500 Subject: Any early DSP fans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ha, finally DSP32C showed up. Yes, I have an ISA bus DSP32C board that is ready to go to a good home. I do not have the software. Just for $5 shipping cost. vax, 9000 On 12/10/06, Richard wrote: > > > In article , > "9000 VAX" writes: > > > I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is interested in > > early DSP chips? > > I have several vintage machines that depend on AT&T DSP32C chips to do > their business. The ESV workstation used them for per-vertex > processing and scan conversion; a custom VLSI chip that I wrote test > code for does span and frame buffer processing. The AT&T Pixel > Machine uses the DSP32C to perform all its processing, I think. > > I also have a TMS320C25 development kit that I guess is "vintage" by > now, although it wasn't at the time I bought it :-). > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Dec 10 16:18:19 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:18:19 -0500 Subject: Any early DSP fans? References: Message-ID: <008a01c71ca9$19a51b10$0b01a8c0@game> I have a few DSP Nubus boards used in 68K Macs for Photoshop work ( A pair of AT&7T DSP16A), another nubus card with a pair of AT&T DSP32c's, and a Nubus video card with a pair of DSP16As. Plus the early pro soundcards (like the Audiomedia II Nubus) had DSPs onboard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "9000 VAX" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 5:01 PM Subject: Re: Any early DSP fans? > Ha, finally DSP32C showed up. Yes, I have an ISA bus DSP32C board that is > ready to go to a good home. I do not have the software. Just for $5 shipping > cost. > > vax, 9000 > > On 12/10/06, Richard wrote: > > > > > > In article , > > "9000 VAX" writes: > > > > > I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is interested in > > > early DSP chips? > > > > I have several vintage machines that depend on AT&T DSP32C chips to do > > their business. The ESV workstation used them for per-vertex > > processing and scan conversion; a custom VLSI chip that I wrote test > > code for does span and frame buffer processing. The AT&T Pixel > > Machine uses the DSP32C to perform all its processing, I think. > > > > I also have a TMS320C25 development kit that I guess is "vintage" by > > now, although it wasn't at the time I bought it :-). > > -- > > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > > > > Legalize Adulthood! > > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 10 16:50:39 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 16:50:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: Compaq Portable III problem Message-ID: <200612102250.kBAMoclQ083046@keith.ezwind.net> Hi, Someone I know just got his hands on a Compaq Portable III. Read the 3 emails below, which are in order. Anyone got any ideas what might have gone? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Hi Now here is the thing... It gave out a massive electronic bang when I switched it on. Something definitely blew.. But it wasn`t the main computer, cus up popped the orange screen with IBM on it, the hard drive is working, the floppy drive is working as is the keyboard... I can even run the programs on it.. The crack came from by the switch.. Slight burning smell, but gone now. And is working fine. This baby has travelled a long way these two days... I guess not very happy. I can`t get over the build quality.... scuzz ---------------------------------- Interesting this.... [ quote ] Nancy Hackett's bad experience: Oh, did this machine have problems! I went through four of those nifty plasma monitors, several hard drives, two factory rebuilds, and an uncounted number of motherboards trying to track down internal error codes that Compaq said didn't exist! It came (not so) lovingly to be known as "The Compaq from Hell" with the motherboard rumored to be numbered "666". Both the maintenance manager's and the Compaq regional rep's hands would sweat every time I lugged it in. The spectacular finale was when the power supply blew, shooting blue flames 18" out the side! LOL! That was an experience! [ end quote ] Not quite the flames as described... scuzz ------------------------- Andrew > That doesn't sound too good. It may still > work for now, but if something did go then > it's likely to be putting a strain on other > components depending on what went. > It looks cool though ;) Well spotted. The thing just flipped out. All I get now is all the indicator lights to power light, caps lock etc flashing at regular intervals. Hopefully not too dificult to trace and fix, subject to there being no replacement parts involved. As I say the screen was working, so too the drives, keyboard and obviously the processor and memory so I am thinking something to do with the power supply.. I had feared the worst... And did switch it off. But I did just check and she fired up but then just stopped... Never mind. scuzz From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 16:56:48 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:56:48 +1300 Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <457C7D09.90607@jbrain.com> References: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> <457AD7FA.9090102@brutman.com> <457C7D09.90607@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 12/11/06, Jim Brain wrote: > If you'd spoke up sooner, I had 3 on eBay a few weeks back. They were > rotting here, and I wanted them out. The were PE3's The PE3s are nice - I use one with an old Zenith laptop (w/dual pop-up 720K floppies) and Kermit for a portable terminal (the PE3 is for when I want to access hosts over Ethernet instead of serial - Kermit comes with a TCP stack - just add packet driver). I know the PE3s can be parasitically powered over a PS/2 or AT keyboard connector; I'm not so sure the PE2s are low enough power to do that (I have a pigtail lead from the PE3 power jack to a M/F PS/2 passthrough connector - very handy). All this discussion of Linux aside, at the moment, AFAIK, the PE3 is stuck in the era of DOS and packet drivers (so DOS, Win3.1, etc.) I think it still works with Win95, but there is no XP driver, rendering them somewhat useless for most modern consumers, keeping the price down. Jim, I'm curious what you got for them on eBay since they do lack widespread utility with modern machines. ISTR seeing them at Dayton in the $5-$10 range, typically on table with PCMCIA cards and what-not, but perhaps they are old enough to be in they "curious and getting scarce" category. -ethan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Dec 10 17:22:31 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:22:31 +0000 Subject: Compaq Portable III problem In-Reply-To: <200612102250.kBAMoclQ083046@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Andrew, On 10/12/06 22:50, "aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk" wrote: > > Hi, > > Someone I know just got his hands on a > Compaq Portable III. Read the 3 emails below, > which are in order. Who is this 'scuzz'? Based on your previous emails he/she seems to be intent on picking up anything he can proceed to complain about in some form or other? Also, why isn't he on this list? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 10 17:34:33 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:34:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: Compaq Portable III problem Message-ID: <200612102334.kBANYW7k085073@keith.ezwind.net> --- Adrian Graham wr ote: > Andrew, > > On 10/12/06 22:50, "aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk" > > wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > Someone I know just got his hands on a > > Compaq Portable III. Read the 3 emails below, > > which are in order. > > Who is this 'scuzz'? Based on your previous emails > he/she seems to be intent > on picking up anything he can proceed to complain > about in some form or > other? Also, why isn't he on this list? > It's nothing like that at all. He has spent the last decade collecting lots of retro computer equipment. Originally starting with Amiga's his collection has grown to emmense proportions and currently includes Spectrums, Amstrads, MSX's and loads of other stuff (including books & manuals). His website is: http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com As to why he isn't on this list himself? I can't answer that. He is aware of this list and of the site. Perhaps it's because he gets too many emails from other lists/groups. I do know he sometimes works long hours and such. Personally I myself can only deal with 100-200 emails a day. Any more than that and old mail gets left until I have got my email account down enough to rediscover old unread mail. He certainly isn't a bad person at all, he has helped me out in the past with amiga software and (colour) photocopying magazine pages for me. He does dislike Microsoft and Windows though.. especially modern Windows OS's which are constantly updating and sending unknown info via the web. However, that's getting off-topic. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 19:18:02 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:18:02 -0500 Subject: Any early DSP fans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is claimed. vax, 9000 On 12/10/06, 9000 VAX wrote: > > Ha, finally DSP32C showed up. Yes, I have an ISA bus DSP32C board that is > ready to go to a good home. I do not have the software. Just for $5 shipping > cost. > > vax, 9000 > > On 12/10/06, Richard wrote: > > > > > > In article > >, > > "9000 VAX" < vax9000 at gmail.com> writes: > > > > > I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is interested > > in > > > early DSP chips? > > > > I have several vintage machines that depend on AT&T DSP32C chips to do > > their business. The ESV workstation used them for per-vertex > > processing and scan conversion; a custom VLSI chip that I wrote test > > code for does span and frame buffer processing. The AT&T Pixel > > Machine uses the DSP32C to perform all its processing, I think. > > > > I also have a TMS320C25 development kit that I guess is "vintage" by > > now, although it wasn't at the time I bought it :-). > > -- > > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > > download > > > > > > > > > Legalize Adulthood! < http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> > > > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Dec 10 19:21:08 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:21:08 -0800 Subject: RK05 images Message-ID: <457CB284.4070406@shiresoft.com> I've imaged the first of (many) RK05 packs. Here's what I've done so far (these were done first because they were either cleaned or because they were still sealed in the *original* DEC shipping boxes): * PDP-11 F-77/RSX V4.0 (DEC Distribution media) * RMS-11 V1.8/RSX-11M V3.2 (DEC Distribution media) * RSX-11M V3.2 AUTOPATCH 1/2 (DEC Distribution media) * RSX-11M V3.2 AUTOPATCH 2/2 (DEC Distribution media) * RT11 V4.0 MUBASIC V2 (handwritten label) * XXDP RKDP PKG #1 (handwritten label) I'll be putting these up on my website in the next few days (the images will have been gzip'd to save space and reduce bandwidth). To wet your appetites, here are some of the other "high" value packs (these are all DEC Distribution media unless otherwise noted): * EDU-DECAL (DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CA1 AUTHOR LANGUAGE SYSTEM) * RSTS V6C RK System 1 of 3 (handwritten) * RMS-11K/RSX-11M V1.5 * DECNET-11M/S V3.1 1/2 * XXDP Diags RKDP PKG #2 (handwritten) * CVZZDU0 LSI-11 DKDP+ DIAG PKG * DECNET-11M/S V3.1 2/2 * RSX-11M AUTO-PATCH REV-D * RSX11S V2.1 * CTS-300/DIS V1 * SORT-11 V01 * XXDP RKDP DIAG PKG 1 * XXDP RKDP DIAG PKG 2 * XXDP RKDP DIAG PKG 3 * F4/IAS-RSX V2.2 * DECNET-11M/S V2.0 1/2 * RSX11M V3.1 MCRSRC * RSX11M V3.1 FCPDMP * MUMPS V04 (handwritten) * F4-PLUS/RSX V3.0 * DIBOL-11 SOURCE RELEASE 4 (Typed label) * RSX-11M V3.2 EXC SRC BIN * COBOL/RSX11M/IAS V4 * COBOL/RSX11M/IAS V3.1 BIN * DECNET-11M/S V3.1 NET 1/2 I have to clean each of these packs before I image them since they weren't kept in the original shipping boxes. I also have 170+ additional packs that have all handwritten labels, but weren't as interesting as what I've already listed. Cleaning a pack takes about 20 minutes (including disassembly and reassembly) so don't expect these to be done quickly. Except for the two packs that I've cleaned myself (above), I'm not sure if the contents of the packs match what the labels indicate. I've also discovered that DEC distribution packs (at least the ones I've read so far) only format the first 202 cylinders (vs a max of 203 cylinders). -- TTFN - Guy From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 10 19:26:48 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:26:48 -0700 Subject: Cleaning disk packs (was: RK05 images) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:21:08 -0800. <457CB284.4070406@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: In article <457CB284.4070406 at shiresoft.com>, Guy Sotomayor writes: > [...] Cleaning a pack takes about 20 > minutes (including disassembly and reassembly) so don't expect these to > be done quickly. Just out of curiosity, what's your procedure for cleaning them? Is there a similar procedure that should be done for RL01 disk packs? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From technobug at comcast.net Sun Dec 10 19:35:06 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:35:06 -0700 Subject: Any early DSP fans? In-Reply-To: <200612101800.kBAI09l5034797@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612101800.kBAI09l5034797@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 11:44:24 -0500, "Ram Meenakshisundaram" wrote: > How early?? I am specifically looking for any TI C40 and Motorola > 9600 DSP stuff... > > Cheers, > > Ram [...] >> From: "9000 VAX" >> >> I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is >> interested in >> early DSP chips? > > Hi > I have a developement sdk for the Intel 2920 chip. > I've played with it a little. > Dwight I'm presently attempting to play with a Loughborough Sound Images PCI/ C44S board that has 4 'C44s on it. If my old employer falls into the season's hype^H^H^H^Hspirit I might be be gifted with the TI compiler and a distributed OS. I programmed a system with 17 'C40s a while back and do like the beast. However, I'm still looking for info on this particular board - any info would be appreciated. Recently came across my original 'C20 development kit and lit it up for giggles and grins :=)) CRC From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Dec 10 20:45:09 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:45:09 -0300 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net><4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk><45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net><160501c71a55$73c485f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <01ec01c71b0b$7be16df0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <019701c71cce$79872850$f0fea8c0@alpha> > However this winds up being done.... I'd love it if there was an RS232 > serial interface on it with some type of procotol that was documented. I'd > LOVE to write a little driver on the HP 2100 that let me write files to it > which could then be moved back and forth to a PC... Jay, it can be done (forgot how to spell 'definitely'). But..."why"? Compactflash is fast/big enough, to use a serial cable I'd have to create a way to write on the CF (and it can be done faster thru a CF card writter) or to have SRAM on board. Maybe I can use RS232/USB, who knows? I'm here to please you all :oD From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Dec 10 20:53:09 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:53:09 -0300 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! References: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> <1A90F2EA-E716-4CB7-AE56-F66B2BDD9BDE@feedle.net> Message-ID: <01d101c71ccf$f0cddde0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Additionally, emulation would allow people to use Telnet to connect, and > would allow those of us with no functional landline (believe it or not, > there's now a lot of people who depend solely on broadband- delivered VoIP > and cellular exclusively) to play the home game. I cannot remember the name now, but there is a clone of Remote Access made for windows, that accept modems and telnet connections, seems ideal for a bbs redoing. Also, if I'm not mistaken, FrontDoor accepts communication via tcp/uucp. From djg at pdp8.net Sun Dec 10 20:56:23 2006 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 21:56:23 -0500 Subject: Tektronix 4010 Message-ID: <200612110256.kBB2uNS29172@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> >I'm looking for the schematics from the maintenance manual for the >Tektronix 4010. There are the chapters 1 to 6 on pdp8.net but the >important chapter 7 is missing. > Yet another project not completed. I have stuck the raw scans of that section in with the rest at ftp://ftp.pdp8.net/misc/4010/ I will try to clean them up next weekend. I think I found all the files from that section but if not email me and I will find them. Before I forgot about it I was debating on the best way to deal with the foldout pages in that section. The big foldout pages in this manual frequently had two separate drawings. Would people prefer that they be on one big pages like the real manual or on two separate pages so viewing and printing will be easier for people who can't print on the foldout size paper? From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 10 21:41:08 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:41:08 -0700 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:35:06 -0700. Message-ID: Talking of DSPs reminded me of the graphics chips family that TI created in the mid 80s, the TMS34010 was the first part. Does anyone have equipment that utilizes this chip or have an opportunity to work with them directly? It was a chip I read about a lot, but didn't get around to using myself. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 10 21:42:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:42:55 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4010 In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Dec 2006 21:56:23 -0500. <200612110256.kBB2uNS29172@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: In article <200612110256.kBB2uNS29172 at user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com>, djg at pdp8.net writes: > Before I forgot about it I was debating on the best way to deal with the > foldout pages in that section. The big foldout pages in this manual > frequently had two separate drawings. Would people prefer that they be on > one big pages like the real manual or on two separate pages so viewing > and printing will be easier for people who can't print on the foldout size > paper? If it were me and the big foldout contained two figures, then I'd be happier with each figure as its own page in the PDF. I'd go for the opposite if it were simply one huge honkin' picture/diagram and not two diagrams laid out on a large page. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 21:46:05 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:46:05 -0500 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Talking of DSPs reminded me of the graphics chips family that TI > created in the mid 80s, the TMS34010 was the first part. IBM Xstations use them, back in the early RS/6000 days. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 21:47:49 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:47:49 -0500 Subject: Cleaning disk packs (was: RK05 images) In-Reply-To: References: <457CB284.4070406@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > Just out of curiosity, what's your procedure for cleaning them? The proper procedure is to pay $50 for one of the legacy disk vendors to clean them correctly. -- Will From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 22:39:10 2006 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:39:10 -0500 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4affc5e0612102039p754255a5j342c98874fc98cc0@mail.gmail.com> On 12/10/06, Richard wrote: > Talking of DSPs reminded me of the graphics chips family that TI > created in the mid 80s, the TMS34010 was the first part. Not really a graphics chip per se, but a general-purpose DSP, though AFAIK it was primarily laid out for telecom purposes. I may be biased though, that's where I've seen it used :-) > Does anyone have equipment that utilizes this chip or have an > opportunity to work with them directly? Only marginally. By the time I did actually some code in telecom industry (Hello to all ex-Newbridge Ottawa people!) I was working with the C050 - and even that one was strining under the workload of just a few channel at 8kHz sampling rate for applications such as G.729 coding or echo cancellation. The C010 in comparison was VERY limited. > It was a chip I read about a lot, but didn't get around to using > myself. I have the manual for it at my office acually, and my boss has an old board (including POTS interface bits) with it on it. I'm toying with the idea of putting on some of my own code on it, just for old time's sake... Joe. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 10 23:11:05 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:11:05 -0700 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:39:10 -0500. <4affc5e0612102039p754255a5j342c98874fc98cc0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4affc5e0612102039p754255a5j342c98874fc98cc0 at mail.gmail.com>, "Joachim Thiemann" writes: > On 12/10/06, Richard wrote: > > Talking of DSPs reminded me of the graphics chips family that TI > > created in the mid 80s, the TMS34010 was the first part. > > Not really a graphics chip per se, but a general-purpose DSP, though > AFAIK it was primarily laid out for telecom purposes. I may be biased > though, that's where I've seen it used :-) Are you sure you're not confusing the 34010 with the 32010? The 320x0 series was their DSP line. The 340x0 series (I think there was a 34020 at some point) was definately for graphics. It had all kinds of special instructions for interpreting memory as chunks of pixels and had a special video scanout circuitry that you could feed directly to a DAC for a video signal. The chip had all sorts of registers to control the scanout timing. I have docs on them somewhere, IIRC. > Only marginally. By the time I did actually some code in telecom > industry (Hello to all ex-Newbridge Ottawa people!) I was working with > the C050 - and even that one was strining under the workload of just a > few channel at 8kHz sampling rate for applications such as G.729 > coding or echo cancellation. The C010 in comparison was VERY limited. OK, you're definately talking about the 320x0 series here and not the 340x0 series! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Dec 10 19:12:20 2006 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 01:12:20 +0000 Subject: video of CRT implosion? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061206102138.05b83050@mail.30below.com> References: Message-ID: <20061211060732.NHRI24907.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Hi, I've been looking for videos of the CRT implosion without the safety or safety devices defeated. Just wanted to see this is like. I have heard of stories about "exploding" CRTs in old days and sometimes with modern CRTs. Cheers, Wizard From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 11 00:11:54 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:11:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) Message-ID: <20061211061154.39684.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> My old DEC 486 pizza box had a rather large video card w/an 020. Emulated base VGA but thats all, which made it something of a dog. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Dec 11 00:13:39 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:13:39 -0800 Subject: Cleaning disk packs (was: RK05 images) In-Reply-To: References: <457CB284.4070406@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <200612102213.39667.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 10 December 2006 19:47, William Donzelli wrote: > > Just out of curiosity, what's your procedure for cleaning them? > > The proper procedure is to pay $50 for one of the legacy disk vendors > to clean them correctly. The 8th Printing (Third Edition) of the RK05 maintenance manual has in section 5.3.8 "Cartridge Cleaning Procedure". It's quite detailed and explains how to discern regular wear from different types of real damage; lots of details of how to clean, etc. (I looked at an earlier edition of the manual - and that section was not present.) I have cleaned many RL0x and RK05 packs - and never had a disk crash or loss of data as a result of cleaning. For those of us who have replaced heads on RL0x drives - cleaning a pack is in contrast a very simple procedure. I never use any pack I obtain from a third party without cleaning it before use. Do follow the instructions in the maintenance manual. I always use absolute isopropal alcohol (i.e., 99.95%) and lint free pads, etc. to clean packs - in as clean an environment as possible. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Dec 11 00:25:13 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 00:25:13 -0600 Subject: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457CF9C9.8010603@pacbell.net> Richard wrote: > Talking of DSPs reminded me of the graphics chips family that TI > created in the mid 80s, the TMS34010 was the first part. > > Does anyone have equipment that utilizes this chip or have an > opportunity to work with them directly? > > It was a chip I read about a lot, but didn't get around to using > myself. I worked at a start up called ShoGraphics, 1991-1993. I have a lot of stories about the place, but that is another topic. ShoGraphics made an xterm with hardware accelerated PEX (Phigs Extension for X). Here is a link that google coughed up: http://calbears.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EKF/is_n1918_v38/ai_12430939 It sported an i960 for networking, one i860 for control and optionally two more i860s for more beefy geometry acceleration, and mostly custom hardware for rasterization. The prototype hardware had a 34020 that acted as an asynchronous bridge between the i860 CPU and the framebuffer to allow the i860 to do dumb pixel manipulation for low end machines that lacked the rasterization hardware. However, it was a dog, at least in this system. On screen clears you could watch the "wipe" effect. To be fair, the 34020 wasn't doing any work other than video timing control and passing memory read and write requests to the framebuffer. The designer had abstractly theorized that much of the x server software could be moved over to the 34020, but the software team wasn't too keen on supporting two different processors. I redesigned the framebuffer board and made the connection between the i860 and the framebuffer synchronous, and added support for using the block write mode of the VRAM. Problem solved. BTW, the rasterizer did gouraud shading at two pixels per clock at 40 MHz. The framebuffer logic was responsible for checking the window ID plane (8b) and doing the Z buffer compare and update. The framebuffer was 80b deep. Not too bad for 1992. The system was wildly expensive as compared to the SGI Indigo, which had the advantage of using ASICs instead of TTL. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Dec 11 01:27:49 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:27:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: video of CRT implosion? In-Reply-To: <20061211060732.NHRI24907.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <20061211060732.NHRI24907.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > Hi, I've been looking for videos of the CRT implosion without the > safety or safety devices defeated. > > Just wanted to see this is like. I have heard of stories about > "exploding" CRTs in old days and sometimes with modern CRTs. Someone made a video of monitors being shot during the Defcon Shoot. I don't know where it went. Maybe 23.org has it squirreled away somewhere. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pdp11 at saccade.com Mon Dec 11 01:27:15 2006 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:27:15 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20061210231517.03c0b6d0@mail.saccade.com> Well, it took a few years, but I finally brought my PDP-11/70 panel back to life: http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/PDP11/PDP-11.html I'm afraid I don't have the space or power (or noise tolerance!) to have the real thing around. Has anybody else brought panels back to life? I'm aware of the Spare Time Gizmos / Ersatz-11 work, and of course the incredible "Gallery of Old Iron". Any others? http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/KY11_Interface.htm http://www.thegalleryofoldiron.com/ Cheers, jp ps - An open thanks to Tom Uban for sending me the schematics - that was a big help. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Dec 11 01:37:32 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:37:32 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20061210231517.03c0b6d0@mail.saccade.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848818F@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of J. Peterson > Sent: maandag 11 december 2006 8:27 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life > > Well, it took a few years, but I finally brought my PDP-11/70 > panel back to > life: > > http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/PDP11/PDP-11.html > > I'm afraid I don't have the space or power (or noise > tolerance!) to have the real thing around. Has anybody else > brought panels back to life? I'm aware of the Spare Time > Gizmos / Ersatz-11 work, and of course the incredible > "Gallery of Old Iron". Any others? > > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/KY11_Interface.htm > http://www.thegalleryofoldiron.com/ > > Cheers, > jp > > ps - An open thanks to Tom Uban for sending me the schematics > - that was a big help. Have a look in www.pdp-11.nl/ in the folder "My projects", or, for an 11/70 console, direct at www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/cons1170/cons70startpage.html I am going to read your pages right now! Nice to know that I am not alone :-) greetz, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From jrr at flippers.com Sun Dec 10 16:38:00 2006 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 14:38:00 -0800 Subject: 1702 EPROM's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:30 AM -0500 12/10/06, Fixer7526 at wmconnect.com wrote: >Hello, > > Would you please post the following message. > > I am looking for someone who can copy 1702 EPROM's. Contact me at >Fixer7526 at wmconnect.com . > > Thanks, > > Alan > There is a company in San Francisco that copies 1702s very inexpensively. http://www.demoboard.com/anchor.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> They are located at: >>>>>> >>>>>> Anchor Electronics >>>>>> 2040 Walsh Ave >>>>>> Santa Clara, Ca 95050 >>>>>> (408) 727-3693 John :-#)# From jrr at flippers.com Sun Dec 10 16:41:41 2006 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 14:41:41 -0800 Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:18 PM +0100 12/10/06, Christian Corti wrote: >Hello, > >does anybody have bits for the TI 960B (not 960A) minicomputer, e.g. >software, schematics etc. ? I'd like to get this system running >again. > >Thanks, >Christian What is the CPU? you can pick up Fluke 9010/9100s Microprocessor tester and the TI9900 CPU pod quite reasonably... John :-#)# From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Dec 11 03:00:18 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 06:00:18 -0300 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) References: Message-ID: <040e01c71d02$d9b92c80$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Does anyone have equipment that utilizes this chip or have an > opportunity to work with them directly? MANY arcade boards (Mortal Kombat and many Midway games comes to mind) uses them From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 11 02:05:57 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 00:05:57 -0800 Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: References: <457CB284.4070406@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <457D1165.8070904@shiresoft.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> Just out of curiosity, what's your procedure for cleaning them? > > The proper procedure is to pay $50 for one of the legacy disk vendors > to clean them correctly. Yea, and with 200+ packs...that's $10,000+...I think I'll do it myself. -- TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 11 02:13:56 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 00:13:56 -0800 Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457D1344.308@shiresoft.com> Richard wrote: > In article <457CB284.4070406 at shiresoft.com>, > Guy Sotomayor writes: > > >> [...] Cleaning a pack takes about 20 >> minutes (including disassembly and reassembly) so don't expect these to >> be done quickly. >> > > Just out of curiosity, what's your procedure for cleaning them? > See Lyle's reply below. It's not really that hard. I usually clean the outside of the pack first to get as much crud off of the pack before I split it open. I then remove the screws that hold the two halves of the pack (every other one around...2 passes and all of the screws are out). Since the pack is upside down to remove the screws I then remove the bottom cover. At this point the platter can be removed. I use 99.9% alcohol and lint free cloths. Having the platter exposed allows for careful inspection of the surfaces. I'm *very* conservative about the condition of the platter. I've rejected a number of platters already because of scratches, groves, burnt oxide, etc. I then clean the inside of the pack (usually just blow air). Reassembly is the reverse of disassembly(tm). > Is there a similar procedure that should be done for RL01 disk packs? > I have an automatic pack cleaner for RL01/02 packs. -- TTFN - Guy From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Dec 11 02:21:22 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 03:21:22 -0500 Subject: Stiction Message-ID: <01C71CD3.8E805240@mse-d03> -----------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:36:20 -0500 From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: Stiction But you mentioned "225"...As in Seagate ST-225? I've never heard of stiction problems with those (I have used quite a few of them, and I currently have a few in DEC machines as RD-31s)...I wasn't aware that they could develop such problems. I will keep an eye on mine! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL ---------------Reply: Oops; I also mentioned ST-225s as having stiction problems, but I meant ST-125s and ST-251s; although I've had my share of other problems with ST-225s and 238s, stiction wasn't one of them. mike From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 03:18:17 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:18:17 +1300 Subject: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20061210231517.03c0b6d0@mail.saccade.com> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20061210231517.03c0b6d0@mail.saccade.com> Message-ID: On 12/11/06, J. Peterson wrote: > Well, it took a few years, but I finally brought my PDP-11/70 panel back to > life: > > http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/PDP11/PDP-11.html Nice. > I'm afraid I don't have the space or power (or noise tolerance!) to have > the real thing around. I have the space and power for an 11/70, and, oddly enough, there's an 11/70 in it (and one next to that ;-) > Has anybody else brought panels back to life? I have a real 11/70 panel that was free from Jay West after he stripped off all the useful switches from it... my first goal is to get it working as blinky lights on a real 11/70, then start shopping around for replacement switches and toggles to get it back in service. I figure it might take a bit of looking for donor parts, off of, say, two other broken panels, but it's not too hard a task to accomplish. Enjoy the panel - real blinkylights are lots of fun. -ethan From cc at corti-net.de Mon Dec 11 04:17:45 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:17:45 +0100 (CET) Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Dec 2006, John Robertson wrote: > At 8:18 PM +0100 12/10/06, Christian Corti wrote: >> does anybody have bits for the TI 960B (not 960A) minicomputer, e.g. >> software, schematics etc. ? I'd like to get this system running again. > What is the CPU? you can pick up Fluke 9010/9100s Microprocessor tester and > the TI9900 CPU pod quite reasonably... It's simple, the CPU is called TI 960. No (single-chip) microprocessor. It predates the TMS9900 but influenced its development. I think the TI 960 was largely used in process control applications. Christian From cc at corti-net.de Mon Dec 11 05:24:16 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:24:16 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tektronix 4010 In-Reply-To: <200612110256.kBB2uNS29172@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> References: <200612110256.kBB2uNS29172@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 djg at pdp8.net wrote: > Yet another project not completed. I have stuck the raw scans of > that section in with the rest at ftp://ftp.pdp8.net/misc/4010/ I will try > to clean them up next weekend. I think I found all the files from that > section but if not email me and I will find them. Thank you very much! The quality of your scans is really good. > Before I forgot about it I was debating on the best way to deal with the > foldout pages in that section. The big foldout pages in this manual > frequently had two separate drawings. Would people prefer that they be on > one big pages like the real manual or on two separate pages so viewing > and printing will be easier for people who can't print on the foldout size > paper? Good question. I usually prefer one big page so I can print everything on one A4 sheet (scaled down) or A3 sheet in original size. Christian From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Dec 11 08:44:54 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:44:54 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20061210231517.03c0b6d0@mail.saccade.com> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20061210231517.03c0b6d0@mail.saccade.com> Message-ID: <457D6EE6.4000203@ubanproductions.com> Nice work! Happy to have been able to help. --tom J. Peterson wrote: > Well, it took a few years, but I finally brought my PDP-11/70 panel back > to life: > > http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/PDP11/PDP-11.html > > I'm afraid I don't have the space or power (or noise tolerance!) to have > the real thing around. Has anybody else brought panels back to life? > I'm aware of the Spare Time Gizmos / Ersatz-11 work, and of course the > incredible "Gallery of Old Iron". Any others? > > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/KY11_Interface.htm > http://www.thegalleryofoldiron.com/ > > Cheers, > jp > > ps - An open thanks to Tom Uban for sending me the schematics - that was > a big help. > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 11 09:25:12 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 10:25:12 -0500 Subject: Cleaning disk packs (was: RK05 images) In-Reply-To: References: <457CB284.4070406@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <79F5117D-8D31-4B38-8462-59E0CAE3E99D@neurotica.com> On Dec 10, 2006, at 10:47 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Just out of curiosity, what's your procedure for cleaning them? > > The proper procedure is to pay $50 for one of the legacy disk vendors > to clean them correctly. Wow, how nicely self-sufficient! Unless those legacy disk vendors employ true old-timers to handle their disk cleaning services, chances are good that people here know more about RK05s than they do. I buy KimWipes by the case on eBay...I'll clean my own damn packs, thank you. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 09:20:11 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:20:11 -0700 Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Dec 2006 00:13:56 -0800. <457D1344.308@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: In article <457D1344.308 at shiresoft.com>, Guy Sotomayor writes: > > Is there a similar procedure that should be done for RL01 disk packs? > > > I have an automatic pack cleaner for RL01/02 packs. Really?! What's that look like? How did you come across one? Do you have photos? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 11 09:27:28 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 10:27:28 -0500 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2006, at 10:41 PM, Richard wrote: > Talking of DSPs reminded me of the graphics chips family that TI > created in the mid 80s, the TMS34010 was the first part. > > Does anyone have equipment that utilizes this chip or have an > opportunity to work with them directly? > > It was a chip I read about a lot, but didn't get around to using > myself. I'm in the same boat...I drooled over it quite a bit, I think I even have a 340x0-family databook somewhere. Maybe I'll throw something together with one someday. It really did look like a neat chip. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From kth at srv.net Mon Dec 11 09:57:31 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:57:31 -0700 Subject: Followup: Hazeltine "Computer" In-Reply-To: <457B54C0.26841.5722977@cclist.sydex.com> References: <457B54C0.26841.5722977@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <457D7FEB.1060902@srv.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: >Bottom line is that I have nothing to contribute to the "Hazeltime >Computer" legend--and, with the discovery of the ADDS terminal code, >don't even know why the customer insisted on calling it a Hazeltine >(but he did--I found the letter in my files. > > It may be that the customer used, at one time, a computer with a Hazeltime terminal. Not being a "real" computer literate person, that is what he called the computer. I have people at several sites using a VAX/VMS system, and they all seem to want to call it "kermit". I've given up correcting them. >So--shrug! My guess is that the "computer, given the date" may have >been housed in the same box as the floppy drives.--and that a >Hazeltine terminal was connected to it. > >But I didn't think that a Hazeltine had cotnrol sequences anything >like an ADDS Viewpoint. > > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 09:31:51 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:31:51 -0700 Subject: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Dec 2006 00:25:13 -0600. <457CF9C9.8010603@pacbell.net> Message-ID: In article <457CF9C9.8010603 at pacbell.net>, Jim Battle writes: > I worked at a start up called ShoGraphics, 1991-1993. I have a lot of > stories about the place, but that is another topic. ShoGraphics made an > xterm with hardware accelerated PEX (Phigs Extension for X). Here is a > link that google coughed up: [...] Hey, now that you mention it, I remember the name ShoGraphics :-). I don't suppose you lucked into any ShoGraphics hardware? At the time I was working at E&S and we competed with ShoGraphics; the ESV was a PEX implementation. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Dec 11 10:33:59 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:33:59 +0100 (CET) Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: <457D1344.308@shiresoft.com> References: <457D1344.308@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <24446.88.211.153.27.1165854839.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > > > Richard wrote: >> In article <457CB284.4070406 at shiresoft.com>, >> Guy Sotomayor writes: >> >> >>> [...] Cleaning a pack takes about 20 >>> minutes (including disassembly and reassembly) so don't expect these to >>> be done quickly. >>> >> >> Just out of curiosity, what's your procedure for cleaning them? >> > See Lyle's reply below. It's not really that hard. I usually clean the > outside of the pack first to get as much crud off of the pack before I > split it open. I then remove the screws that hold the two halves of the > pack (every other one around...2 passes and all of the screws are out). > Since the pack is upside down to remove the screws I then remove the > bottom cover. At this point the platter can be removed. I use 99.9% > alcohol and lint free cloths. Having the platter exposed allows for > careful inspection of the surfaces. I'm *very* conservative about the > condition of the platter. I've rejected a number of platters already > because of scratches, groves, burnt oxide, etc. I then clean the inside > of the pack (usually just blow air). Reassembly is the reverse of > disassembly(tm). >> Is there a similar procedure that should be done for RL01 disk packs? >> > I have an automatic pack cleaner for RL01/02 packs. > I have one for RK05 cartridges. Very funny to see it in operation, a little arm with cleanin pads attached to it move very slowely out and in while the disk spins at around 3 - 5 rpm. Ed From ceby2 at csc.com Mon Dec 11 10:44:45 2006 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:44:45 +0000 Subject: Dr. Hopper's 100 birthday In-Reply-To: <200612111609.kBBG8tK1050914@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: All -- Saw this blurb on BBC News and thought I'd flag it to the rest of you. 9 December was the 100th anniversary of Dr. Grace Hopper's birthday. All hail Mother COBOL: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6168489.stm Regards, Colin Eby -- ceby2 at csc.com CSC - EMEA Northern Region - C&SI -Technology Architect -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 11 11:03:41 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 09:03:41 -0800 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) Message-ID: <457D8F6D.8080409@bitsavers.org> > Does anyone have equipment that utilizes this chip or have an > opportunity to work with them directly? In the PC world, there was the TI TGA card. I've seen them most often in arcade games. Several vendors used them, including a couple of generations of Atari hardware (Hard Drivin', etc.) Apple built an evaluation card for the 340x0 when we were deciding on how to implement accelerated graphics cards. The decision was to use a 29000 processor (the 8*24 GC card). From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Dec 11 11:08:50 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:08:50 -0500 Subject: Dr. Hopper's 100 birthday In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:44:45 GMT." Message-ID: <200612111708.kBBH8odo003745@mwave.heeltoe.com> Colin Eby wrote: >All -- > >Saw this blurb on BBC News and thought I'd flag it to the rest of you. 9 >December was the 100th anniversary of Dr. Grace Hopper's birthday. All >hail Mother COBOL: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6168489.stm I saw her speak once, where she handed out "nanoseconds" and talked with people afterward. It was very memorable. She was quite inspirational. I'll never forget her talking about just doing things rather than asking for permission, and her (now) famous quote on that. She had great stories about the military and computing. She also (if I remember correctly) had some interesting anecdotes about drum memory and code timing - I've seen other people comment on that here. -brad From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 11 11:14:47 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 09:14:47 -0800 Subject: Texas Instruments 960B Message-ID: <457D9207.9060606@bitsavers.org> > does anybody have bits for the TI 960B (not 960A) minicomputer, e.g. > software, schematics etc. ? I have some additional material on the 960 that isn't up yet on bitsavers. The 960 and 980 share some peripheral interfaces. Did you end up with the 990 system as well? From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 10:54:27 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 09:54:27 -0700 Subject: Followup: Hazeltine "Computer" In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:57:31 -0700. <457D7FEB.1060902@srv.net> Message-ID: In article <457D7FEB.1060902 at srv.net>, Kevin Handy writes: > It may be that the customer used, at one time, a computer > with a Hazeltime terminal. Not being a "real" computer > literate person, that is what he called the computer. When questioned, the poster insisted it was a computer and not a terminal. Since he didn't post a close-up picture of the connectors, its hard to say. He swears he remembers connecting disk drives to the Hazeltine. As others pointed out, once you get a microprocessor based terminal you're only a storage system away from a microcomputer. Hell, the ZX81 feels like this -- it has just enough CPU power to keep the screen refreshed. When you made the CPU work harder, the refresh suffered. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 10:55:51 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 09:55:51 -0700 Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:33:59 +0100. <24446.88.211.153.27.1165854839.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: In article <24446.88.211.153.27.1165854839.squirrel at webmail.xs4all.nl>, "Ed Groenenberg" writes: > > I have an automatic pack cleaner for RL01/02 packs. > > > > I have one for RK05 cartridges. > Very funny to see it in operation, a little arm with cleanin pads attached > to it move very slowely out and in while the disk spins at around 3 - 5 rpm. So as a user of modern hard drives this just sounds inredible to me. I take it that older disk packs, while still fragile, are less susceptible to minor surface abrasians caused by the cleaning pads swiping the dirt off? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cc at corti-net.de Mon Dec 11 12:06:06 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:06:06 +0100 (CET) Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: <457D9207.9060606@bitsavers.org> References: <457D9207.9060606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Dec 2006, Al Kossow wrote: > I have some additional material on the 960 that isn't up yet on bitsavers. > The 960 and 980 share some peripheral interfaces. Good to know. > Did you end up with the 990 system as well? Yes, it's a 990/10 with 192kB RAM along with a FD800 dual floppy disk drive and a DS10 cartridge disk drive, all mounted into an original TI rack. The system needs heavy cleaning, but I'm confident that we will be able to make it running again, it appears to be a nice system. Christian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 12:10:25 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:10:25 -0500 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: <457D8F6D.8080409@bitsavers.org> References: <457D8F6D.8080409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > In the PC world, there was the TI TGA card. NEC used to make a TIGA card as well - I used to have (and use) one. I may still have it. -- Will From kth at srv.net Mon Dec 11 12:20:43 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:20:43 -0700 Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457DA17B.8010000@srv.net> Richard wrote: > So as a user of modern hard drives this just sounds inredible to me. > >I take it that older disk packs, while still fragile, are less >susceptible to minor surface abrasians caused by the cleaning pads >swiping the dirt off? > > These older disk packs were NOT sealed units, and the bit density is a lot lower than you see on modern disk drives. If you put "magna-view" on those platters, you could probably read off the data just using your eyeballs, or maybe a cheap magnifing glass, when it isn't being used to fry ants. The surface abrasions that a cleaning pad would make were unlikely to cause any problems; while the hair, dirt, dust, bugs, spider webs, flaking oxides, etc., that were frequently found in drive packs, were a frequent cause of problems. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 11 12:26:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 10:26:52 -0800 Subject: Followup: Hazeltine "Computer" In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <457D326C.7563.CBC0ACA@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Dec 2006 at 9:54, Richard wrote: > As others pointed out, once you get a microprocessor based terminal > you're only a storage system away from a microcomputer. Hell, the > ZX81 feels like this -- it has just enough CPU power to keep the > screen refreshed. When you made the CPU work harder, the refresh > suffered. ...and if you've got a box with floppy drives in it, you're only a processor away from a minicomputer. The point is that there are some 5.25" drive boxes with little that would give you a clue that there was also a CPU board in the same box. I've got several sample diskettes in my collection that show that they're for an Ampro board buried in someone else's box. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 11 12:39:33 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:39:33 -0600 Subject: Followup: Hazeltine "Computer" References: >, <457D326C.7563.CBC0ACA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <002f01c71d53$b51805d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> I can't tell you how many of my customers that used HP-UX on HP9000 series boxes would call me for support and when I asked them what kind of computer they had (because we supported HP-UX, Microdata, Prime, GA, etc.) they would say a WYSE-50. They knew full well that the terminal was just a terminal to their system, but they assumed the lable referred to the whole computer. We got a lot of warranty/registration cards back for our software package where computer type was listed as ADDS Viewpoint, etc. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 11 12:41:43 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:41:43 -0600 Subject: Cleaning disk packs References: Message-ID: <007201c71d54$03795490$6500a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote... > Really?! What's that look like? How did you come across one? > Do you have photos? :-) I've seen a few go through ebay. They do show up from time to time and aren't terribly uncommon. Jay From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 11 12:46:04 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 10:46:04 -0800 Subject: Cleaning disk packs Message-ID: <457DA76C.4030507@bitsavers.org> > If you put > "magna-view" on those platters, you could probably read off the > data just using your eyeballs, or maybe a cheap magnifing glass The bit density of an RK05 is 2200 bpi. Know what you are talking about before saying something stupid like this. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 11 12:48:37 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 10:48:37 -0800 Subject: Cleaning disk packs Message-ID: <457DA805.1020107@bitsavers.org> >> Really?! What's that look like? How did you come across one? >> Do you have photos? :-) > >I've seen a few go through ebay. They do show up from time to time and >aren't terribly uncommon. Nor are they particularly useful. They are better at contaminating packs than cleaning them. Visual inspection and cleaning is absolutely essential when working with 20+ year old unknown media. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 11 12:55:41 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:55:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: <457D1344.308@shiresoft.com> from "Guy Sotomayor" at Dec 11, 6 00:13:56 am Message-ID: > See Lyle's reply below. It's not really that hard. I usually clean the > outside of the pack first to get as much crud off of the pack before I > split it open. I then remove the screws that hold the two halves of the > pack (every other one around...2 passes and all of the screws are out). I don;t think it matters, since the outer casing performs no function in aligning or even supporting the platter when the disk is in the drive, but I;d undo them working 'across the centre'. That is, if the screws are numbered 1 to 8 going round the pack (IIRC there are 8 screws), I'd undo them in the order 1, 5, 3, 7, 2, 6, 4, 8 > Since the pack is upside down to remove the screws I then remove the > bottom cover. At this point the platter can be removed. I use 99.9% > alcohol and lint free cloths. Having the platter exposed allows for > careful inspection of the surfaces. I'm *very* conservative about the > condition of the platter. I've rejected a number of platters already > because of scratches, groves, burnt oxide, etc. I then clean the inside > of the pack (usually just blow air). Reassembly is the reverse of > disassembly(tm). One thing that the manual mentions is that when you insert a screw, turn it anticlockwise (counterclockwise) until you feel the threads engage and then do it up. Not just to avoid stripping the threads if the screw cuts a new thread in the plastic, but also to prevent debris from being produced by cutting the thread. Don't remove the platter from the hub. You'll lose the centring (which can,, in therory, be set up using a clock gage with the ub mounted on the drive's spindle, turned by hand), but you'll also lose the rotational alingment between the data on the disk and the sector notches on the hub (thse packs are hard-sectored). And handle the disk by the hub. Handling by the edges is much more likely to get grease from your fingers onto the platter surfaces. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 11 12:45:23 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:45:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 10, 6 08:41:08 pm Message-ID: > > > Talking of DSPs reminded me of the graphics chips family that TI > created in the mid 80s, the TMS34010 was the first part. > > Does anyone have equipment that utilizes this chip or have an > opportunity to work with them directly? Yes. I have something that calls itself an 'Ultra-X', I assume it's some fairly early X-terminal. Physically, it's a pizza-box sized unit, and take a VGA monitor (standard DE15 connector), PC-like keyboard (5 pin DIN connecotr),serial mouse (DE9). I think it has serial and ethernet (AUI and thinwire) interfaces to the host. Anyway, it uses a 34010. In fact the X server runs on the 34010 (there's a daughterboasrd full of EPROMs that contain the Xserver and fonts, this is connected only to the 34010 bus). There's also an 808118 for I/O -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 11 13:29:05 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:29:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cleaning disk packs (was: RK05 images) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Dec 10, 6 10:47:49 pm Message-ID: > > > Just out of curiosity, what's your procedure for cleaning them? > > The proper procedure is to pay $50 for one of the legacy disk vendors > to clean them correctly. In my case that would mean finding several thousand dollars, money which I quite simply don't have (not 'don't have spare', just 'don't hace'). More seriously, the RK05 maintenance manual gives a procedure for cleaning the packs. It is clear that they were sonsidered cleanable by field servoids, and I am darn sure if they can do it then so can I. In fact many of us here do things that were not considered to be perfomrable in the field, and have no problems. Now, the manuals for the RLs and RK06/07 specificially warn against cleaning the packs by hand. I would guess the higher bit density of those drives implies a lower flying height of the heads, and thus more likelyhood of a headcrash if you damaga the platter surface in cleaning. However, I do wonder if it is possivle to do it youself, and if so, what to do. Remmeber many of us have facilities, tools and equipment that would not have been avaialbe to the average customer or even field service, And of course relying on some other company to keep a classic computer running is fine until said company goes out of business because we're the only people still needing it (let's be realisitic here, there are not enough of us to keep a compnay in business providing a service to us alone). At that point you hae to do it yourself. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 11 13:23:33 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:23:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: <24446.88.211.153.27.1165854839.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> from "Ed Groenenberg" at Dec 11, 6 05:33:59 pm Message-ID: > > I have an automatic pack cleaner for RL01/02 packs. > > > > I have one for RK05 cartridges. > Very funny to see it in operation, a little arm with cleanin pads attached > to it move very slowely out and in while the disk spins at around 3 - 5 rpm. If that's the official DEC one, then the one for RL packs is the same apart from the bits that hold the pack (they are quite hard to tell apart, therefore). I found that out the hard way when scavenging with a friend, we foudn 2 of the machines, assumed they were the same and took one each. He got the TK05 one, I got the RL one... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 11 13:44:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:44:32 -0800 Subject: OT: Vintage radio opinion Message-ID: <457D44A0.23990.D032B33@cclist.sydex.com> While going through my dustpile, I came across this communications receiver front end: http://www.sydex.com/images/fe.jpg I vaguely remember picking it up in the 60's on Chicago's S. Michigan Ave. "Radio Row" (as boxed new surplus) and that I hooked it up long enough to determine that the IF output is 1600 KHz (or should I say KC?). It's undoubtedly part of some dual-conversion receiver--I suspect something like a Heathkit, but that's just a guess. Tube lineup is 12AT7, 6CS6 and 6BZ6. My question is if this is something worth selling or if I'm likely to lose my 65 cents eBay listing fee. Any additional information from someone who recognizes this would be welcome. Cheers, Chuck From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 13:59:10 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:59:10 -0800 Subject: OT: Vintage radio opinion In-Reply-To: <457D44A0.23990.D032B33@cclist.sydex.com> References: <457D44A0.23990.D032B33@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/11/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > While going through my dustpile, I came across this communications > receiver front end: > > http://www.sydex.com/images/fe.jpg > > I vaguely remember picking it up in the 60's on Chicago's S. Michigan > Ave. "Radio Row" (as boxed new surplus) and that I hooked it up long > enough to determine that the IF output is 1600 KHz (or should I say > KC?). It's undoubtedly part of some dual-conversion receiver--I > suspect something like a Heathkit, but that's just a guess. > > Tube lineup is 12AT7, 6CS6 and 6BZ6. > > My question is if this is something worth selling or if I'm likely to It surely worth selling. The 3 gang air capacitor worths $10 at least. I noticed another two air capacitors and numerous coils too. vax, 9000 lose my 65 cents eBay listing fee. Any additional information from > someone who recognizes this would be welcome. Cheers, > Chuck > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 11 14:32:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:32:21 -0800 Subject: OT: Vintage radio opinion In-Reply-To: References: <457D44A0.23990.D032B33@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <457D4FD5.6389.D2EF196@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Dec 2006 at 11:59, 9000 VAX wrote: > It surely worth selling. The 3 gang air capacitor worths $10 at least. > I noticed another two air capacitors and numerous coils too. It's actually a 6-gang cap--2 gang per section... Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 11 14:32:57 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:32:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Targa/TIGA/??? was Re: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: <457CF9C9.8010603@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20061211203257.73693.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> I remember there being a product by AT & T which was capable of manipulationg "microdots" (micropels?, thereby creating screen resolutions much greater then was common in those days. It was a boardset and may have been built around the 34010 (not sure about that though - I think the product was called Targa, and I could have confused Targa and TIGA). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Dec 11 14:38:27 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:38:27 -0600 Subject: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457DC1C3.2020608@pacbell.net> Richard wrote: > In article <457CF9C9.8010603 at pacbell.net>, > Jim Battle writes: > >> I worked at a start up called ShoGraphics, 1991-1993. I have a lot of >> stories about the place, but that is another topic. ShoGraphics made an >> xterm with hardware accelerated PEX (Phigs Extension for X). Here is a >> link that google coughed up: [...] > > Hey, now that you mention it, I remember the name ShoGraphics :-). I > don't suppose you lucked into any ShoGraphics hardware? > > At the time I was working at E&S and we competed with ShoGraphics; the > ESV was a PEX implementation. I was at work one afternoon when the sheriff came to the door and announced they would be back on the following monday with chains and padlocks and that we should remove any of our personal belongings. There was a hasty auction of lab tools and furniture and who knows what came of the rest of it. One of the software developers bought a system for a song, but as far as I know, he was the only one who bothered. Even though I had some of my own blood, sweat, and tears in the system, I have little nostalgia for that one. It was a poorly run company that deserved to die. From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Dec 11 15:13:38 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:13:38 +0100 (CET) Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: <457DA805.1020107@bitsavers.org> References: <457DA805.1020107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <11243.88.211.153.27.1165871618.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > >> Really?! What's that look like? How did you come across one? > >> Do you have photos? :-) > > > >I've seen a few go through ebay. They do show up from time to time and > >aren't terribly uncommon. > > Nor are they particularly useful. > > They are better at contaminating packs than cleaning them. > > Visual inspection and cleaning is absolutely essential when working with > 20+ year old unknown media. > > > Yes, that's why I only used it once on analready damaged pack to see how it works. Guy's approach is better, and you can see if the pack is usable or not. Cleaning it with the 'wasching machine' does not allow you to inspect the surface that well to judge it. Ed From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Dec 11 15:18:36 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:18:36 +0100 (CET) Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23064.88.211.153.27.1165871916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> >> > I have an automatic pack cleaner for RL01/02 packs. >> > >> >> I have one for RK05 cartridges. >> Very funny to see it in operation, a little arm with cleanin pads >> attached >> to it move very slowely out and in while the disk spins at around 3 - 5 >> rpm. > > If that's the official DEC one, then the one for RL packs is the same > apart from the bits that hold the pack (they are quite hard to tell > apart, therefore). I found that out the hard way when scavenging with a > friend, we foudn 2 of the machines, assumed they were the same and took > one each. He got the TK05 one, I got the RL one... > > -tony > > It is the official DEC one (grey plastic, about 60 by 60 cm). When I found it, it came with 2 boxes of pads and three sealed iso-propyl containers. The iso-propyl did vaporise through the seals over time. Ed From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 15:36:35 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:36:35 -0700 Subject: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:38:27 -0600. <457DC1C3.2020608@pacbell.net> Message-ID: In article <457DC1C3.2020608 at pacbell.net>, Jim Battle writes: > Even though I had some of my own blood, sweat, and tears in the system, > I have little nostalgia for that one. It was a poorly run company that > deserved to die. Contrast to E&S, which was a poorly run company that didn't deserve to die, but seems to be managing it anyway. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 15:35:16 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:35:16 -0700 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:45:23 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Yes. I have something that calls itself an 'Ultra-X', I assume it's some > fairly early X-terminal. [...] I don't think its so early; the earliest X terminals used custom monitor, mouse and keyboard connections. They didn't start using standard VGA/PS2 style connections until the mid to late 90s. By this point, *noone* uses a weird monitor/keyboard/mouse connection for the "thin client" style boxes. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 15:38:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:38:44 -0700 Subject: Cleaning disk packs (was: RK05 images) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:29:05 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Now, the manuals for the RLs and RK06/07 specificially warn against > cleaning the packs by hand. [...] Whats the density of an RL01 compared to an RK05? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Dec 11 15:49:38 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:49:38 -0600 Subject: video monitors available - Evanston, Illinois In-Reply-To: <200612101800.kBAI09l2034797@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612101800.kBAI09l2034797@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: All, At 12:00 -0600 12/10/06, Jack wrote: >I've got about a dozen Sony Trinitron PVM-1380 color video monitors >available. These are dual-channel composite video/mono audio - great for >use with your Apple ][, Atari 800, Commodore 64, etc. Very nice >commercial grade in very good condition. Removed from our school >language lab, so may be "personalized" cosmetically but nothing >objectionable. > >Free for pickup - I will not ship but I can store them through January. >Any remainder will be scrapped in February. > >Located in Evanston, Illinois. > >Jack >847.424.7320 work Sigh. I have a Co-Co 3 and an Apple][. Using TV's so far, better resolution would be nice. I'm in San Antonio, TX, 78254, and will not be able to pick up a monitor. a) Anybody near Evanston planning to talk to Jack about one of these? b) Anybody in category a) willing to pak/n/ship one for me, for 1.2 * packing and shipping cost or similar? c) any idea what shipping will run? I'm guessing order of $40 or so? -- Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) 210-379-4635 Dwarf Phone, 210-522-6025 Office Phone From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Dec 11 15:49:18 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:49:18 -0800 Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457DD25E.7090505@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: >In article <457CB284.4070406 at shiresoft.com>, > Guy Sotomayor writes: > > > >>[...] Cleaning a pack takes about 20 >>minutes (including disassembly and reassembly) so don't expect these to >>be done quickly. >> >> > > > Disassembling any pack I saw most usually resulted in a destroyed drive. The packs even at $1000 ea were way cheaper than the drives, so if any cleaning required something approaching disassembly of the stack, you tossed it (and let some classiccmp collector like me hoard it for 20+ years then sell it on ebay as "unknown NOS" or such :-) anyway, I bought a pack inspector which has a number of spindles, which can release the cover, and allow the pack to be moved manually with precision, and it also has two mirror units which will allow you to view the surface w/o any disassembly. There is no motor, only manual moving of the pack, but they did have a catch which allows you to have a reference when you pass the same place in the rotation, other than that it free spins. There is also a light source, and another attachment that allows you to mount a micrometer with a feeler to check for out of round, or bent platters. when I had a pack cleaned, they used this sort of unit in a clean room to clean and certify the pack (in the early 80's time frame). Jim From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 11 15:51:15 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:51:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: rare Aussie portable "Portapak" on eBay Message-ID: <20061211215115.47950.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1983-Aussie-luggable-Portapak-Z80B-Cpu_W0QQitemZ170057797752QQihZ007QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem don't mean to push loads of eBay stuff, and believe me I have no relation to the seller. But history is just that, and eBay is often a source of it. Rugged looking little piece of work. Well suited for the Outback LOL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Dec 11 15:51:47 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:51:47 -0600 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <200611291417.kATEH7hc014493@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611291417.kATEH7hc014493@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Day late and a dollar short.... As Tony Duell said, DEC Rainbow, 2 CPU's, Z-80 + 8088, possibly count the 7220 graphics processor, so 2 or maybe 3 CPU's. (hangs head in shame) Oh yeah! (head comes back up) AlphaServer 2100, 3 CPU cards ... but all three the same Alpha 4/275 CPU. Sigh. NeXT cube, 68040 + DSP56000 + i860 (on NeXTDimension card) .... ... but then it's not supported to get the i860 to do anything but drive graphics, so that doesn't count - back to 2 CPU's. (head hangs again) oh well. -- Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) 210-379-4635 Dwarf Phone, 210-522-6025 Office Phone From pechter at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 17:02:47 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:02:47 -0500 Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: <457DD25E.7090505@msm.umr.edu> References: <457DD25E.7090505@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: RK05' s are fairly easy to clean. I cleaned a couple of 'em for my 11/23 with some texwipes and 97% isopropyl alcohol. DEC used to have techsleeves that went over the top of a plastic applicator and I also used them when saturated with alcohol -- to clean the RK05 packs. Never had a problem on my packs... also did the RK05F pack. Bill On 12/11/06, jim stephens wrote: > > Richard wrote: > > >In article <457CB284.4070406 at shiresoft.com>, > > Guy Sotomayor writes: > > > > > > > >>[...] Cleaning a pack takes about 20 > >>minutes (including disassembly and reassembly) so don't expect these to > >>be done quickly. > >> > >> > > > > > > > Disassembling any pack I saw most usually resulted in a destroyed > drive. The packs > even at $1000 ea were way cheaper than the drives, so if any cleaning > required something > approaching disassembly of the stack, you tossed it (and let some > classiccmp collector > like me hoard it for 20+ years then sell it on ebay as "unknown NOS" or > such :-) > > anyway, I bought a pack inspector which has a number of spindles, which > can release > the cover, and allow the pack to be moved manually with precision, and > it also has > two mirror units which will allow you to view the surface w/o any > disassembly. > > There is no motor, only manual moving of the pack, but they did have a > catch which > allows you to have a reference when you pass the same place in the > rotation, other than > that it free spins. There is also a light source, and another > attachment that allows you to > mount a micrometer with a feeler to check for out of round, or bent > platters. > > when I had a pack cleaned, they used this sort of unit in a clean room > to clean and > certify the pack (in the early 80's time frame). > > Jim > > From kelly at catcorner.org Mon Dec 11 17:24:39 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:24:39 -0500 Subject: Targa/TIGA/??? was Re: TMS340x0 Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E303621F@MEOW.catcorner.org> > -----Original Message----- > On Behalf Of Chris M > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 3:33 PM > > I remember there being a product by AT & T which was > capable of manipulationg "microdots" (micropels?, > thereby creating screen resolutions much greater then > was common in those days. It was a boardset and may > have been built around the 34010 (not sure about that > though - I think the product was called Targa, and I > could have confused Targa and TIGA). I remeber the AT&T TARGA. Output was to a RGB monitor. Input via tablet with a puck and a wand. They had it running on a Wyse PC/286. I wrote a converter to the Amiga IFF and PC GIF, but I can't find the source any more. I worked at the video lab for the County College of Morris (in New Jersey) back in 90-92. They also had some SGI stuff and some film printers for the PC. All networked via ethernet. Pretty advanced for a community college. Kelly From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Dec 11 14:01:22 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:01:22 +0000 Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457DB912.8010707@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Now, the manuals for the RLs and RK06/07 specificially warn against > cleaning the packs by hand. I would guess the higher bit density of > those drives implies a lower flying height of the heads, and thus more > likelyhood of a headcrash if you damaga the platter surface in cleaning. > However, I do wonder if it is possivle to do it youself, and if so, what > to do. Remmeber many of us have facilities, tools and equipment that > would not have been avaialbe to the average customer or even field service, Now all this is starting to worry me. Is it possible that I've got away with a hell of a lot in just assuming that my packs and RL02 drives are good? Gordon From Lee.Courtney at windriver.com Mon Dec 11 16:11:05 2006 From: Lee.Courtney at windriver.com (Courtney, Lee) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:11:05 -0800 Subject: Dr. Hopper's 100 birthday Message-ID: <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1B76@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com> I was lucky enough to have dinner with her when she visited our student ACM chapter in the mid-1970s. Remember her smoking (several) unfiltered Camels that evening. Great speaker. Told a very funny story about being mistaken for a flight attendant (stewardess in those days) when walking thru the airport in her naval uniform. Lee Courtney Product Line Manager - Linux for Consumer Devices Wind River 500 Wind River Way Alameda, California 94501 Office: 510-749-2763 Cell: 650-704-3934 Yahoo IM: charlesleecourtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 9:09 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Dr. Hopper's 100 birthday > > > Colin Eby wrote: > >All -- > > > >Saw this blurb on BBC News and thought I'd flag it to the > rest of you. > >9 December was the 100th anniversary of Dr. Grace Hopper's > birthday. > >All hail Mother COBOL: > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6168489.stm > > I saw her speak once, where she handed out "nanoseconds" and > talked with people afterward. It was very memorable. She > was quite inspirational. > > I'll never forget her talking about just doing things rather > than asking for permission, and her (now) famous quote on > that. She had great stories about the military and computing. > > She also (if I remember correctly) had some interesting > anecdotes about drum memory and code timing - I've seen other > people comment on that here. > > -brad > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 11 17:27:48 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:27:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Targa/TIGA/??? was Re: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E303621F@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <948034.79134.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kelly Leavitt wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > On Behalf Of Chris M > > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 3:33 PM > > > > I remember there being a product by AT & T which > was > > capable of manipulationg "microdots" (micropels?, > > thereby creating screen resolutions much greater > then > > was common in those days. It was a boardset and > may > > have been built around the 34010 (not sure about > that > > though - I think the product was called Targa, and > I > > could have confused Targa and TIGA). > > I remeber the AT&T TARGA. Output was to a RGB > monitor. Input via tablet with a puck and a wand. > They had it running on a Wyse PC/286. I wrote a > converter to the Amiga IFF and PC GIF, but I can't > find the source any more. to convert .tga to those formats? > I worked at the video lab for the County College of > Morris (in New Jersey) back in 90-92. They also had > some SGI stuff and some film printers for the PC. > All networked via ethernet. Pretty advanced for a > community college. But am I correct in asserting that *somehow* this device could control the individual micro-dots (not the Berkeley kind LOL LOL) that make up a pixel? Prior to VGA, and although the ability wasn't altogether absent from the computer world then, photorealistic imagery was possible, IIRC, on a stock digital monitor??? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Dec 11 17:32:54 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:32:54 -0600 Subject: Interesting decompiler Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20061211173157.083ee278@mail> This tool turns Borland Turbo C 2.0x .EXE back into C code: http://www.debugmode.com/dcompile/disc.htm - John From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 11 17:50:58 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:50:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20061211173157.083ee278@mail> Message-ID: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> the link to TC 2.01 should read: http://bdn.borland.com/article/images/20841/tc201.zip or view the article first, which contains the readme and comments: http://bdn.borland.com/article/20841 very groovy though --- John Foust wrote: > > This tool turns Borland Turbo C 2.0x .EXE back into > C code: > > http://www.debugmode.com/dcompile/disc.htm > > - John > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 11 18:33:32 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:33:32 -0600 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <457DF8DC.4050302@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > the link to TC 2.01 should read: > > http://bdn.borland.com/article/images/20841/tc201.zip annoyingly, I think that version is too early to support inline assembler, which makes it less useful for any actual DOS development work :( hopefully at some point they'll release later versions. I can't imagine they're making much money from them... From kelly at catcorner.org Mon Dec 11 18:47:18 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:47:18 -0500 Subject: Targa/TIGA/??? was Re: TMS340x0 Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036220@MEOW.catcorner.org> >Chris M > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 6:28 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Targa/TIGA/??? was Re: TMS340x0 > > > > > I remeber the AT&T TARGA. Output was to a RGB > > monitor. Input via tablet with a puck and a wand. > > They had it running on a Wyse PC/286. I wrote a > > converter to the Amiga IFF and PC GIF, but I can't > > find the source any more. > > to convert .tga to those formats? > Yes. They were pretty much raw RGB data if I recall. > > I worked at the video lab for the County College of > > Morris (in New Jersey) back in 90-92. They also had > > some SGI stuff and some film printers for the PC. > > All networked via ethernet. Pretty advanced for a > > community college. > > But am I correct in asserting that *somehow* this > device could control the individual micro-dots (not > the Berkeley kind LOL LOL) that make up a pixel? Prior > to VGA, and although the ability wasn't altogether > absent from the computer world then, photorealistic > imagery was possible, IIRC, on a stock digital > monitor??? They talked to an analog video monitor in TV or Laser Disc resolutions. The ones we had had two video cards. I think one was a Herc mono compatible for the DOS stuff. I think the one connected to the TGA was analog inputs with seperate sync. Until you activated the TARGA card, the screen was blank. I think in later versions we could load a graphic onto the video card for static display until you loaded the TARGA software. I don't recall the term micro-dots, but everything was anti-aliased. I was the technoid that connected the devices, made them all talk, and cobbled together software for moving the images. I also learned a lot about video production. I think their character cenerators were originally Sony MBC-55s. They then moved to Chimera or something similar. I just remember replacing the ROMs and software on these units all the time for upgrades. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 11 19:02:55 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:02:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <457DF8DC.4050302@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <457DF8DC.4050302@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061211165644.B80893@shell.lmi.net> > > the link to TC 2.01 should read: > > http://bdn.borland.com/article/images/20841/tc201.zip On Mon, 11 Dec 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > annoyingly, I think that version is too early to support inline assembler, > which makes it less useful for any actual DOS development work :( > hopefully at some point they'll release later versions. I can't imagine > they're making much money from them... TurboC 2.0x DOES explicitly support inline assembler. http://bdn.borland.com/article/images/20841/tc20ad.jpg (notice the list of features of TC2.0 in the box at lower left) If you are not using symbolic labels, remember that C passes arguments to a function on the stack (pushed from right to left), and returns the function return in AX. Restore the values of all segment registers, and BP. From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Dec 11 19:34:26 2006 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:34:26 -0800 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <20061211165644.B80893@shell.lmi.net> (Fred Cisin's message of "Mon\, 11 Dec 2006 17\:02\:55 -0800 \(PST\)") References: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <457DF8DC.4050302@yahoo.co.uk> <20061211165644.B80893@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200612120134.kBC1YQ1G090486@lots.reanimators.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 11 Dec 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: >> annoyingly, I think that version is too early to support inline assembler, >> which makes it less useful for any actual DOS development work :( > > TurboC 2.0x DOES explicitly support inline assembler. > > http://bdn.borland.com/article/images/20841/tc20ad.jpg > (notice the list of features of TC2.0 in the box at lower left) You can write inline assembler in your C source, but the Turbo 2.0x compiler can't do the assembly by itself -- it uses Turbo Assembler for that. -Frank McConnell From ygehrich at yahoo.com Mon Dec 11 19:58:54 2006 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:58:54 -0500 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20061211173157.083ee278@mail> <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061211205703.05f7bf80@yahoo.com> Many, many years ago when I first started at IBM (1964) there was a cute cartoon in Datamation Magazine. It showed a big machine labeled decompiler. A worker was feeding cans of apple sauce into one end of the mation and another worker at the opposite end removing apples and putting them in a box From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 22:49:56 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 21:49:56 -0700 Subject: FYI: RZ29C (4.8 GB SCSI DEC drives) on ebay for $5 ea. Message-ID: I've bought from this guy before and been happy with the results. Item #2788787188 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Dec 11 22:02:18 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 23:02:18 -0500 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <200612120134.kBC1YQ1G090486@lots.reanimators.org> References: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <457DF8DC.4050302@yahoo.co.uk> <20061211165644.B80893@shell.lmi.net> <200612120134.kBC1YQ1G090486@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <457E29CA.1030403@compsys.to> >Frank McConnell wrote: >Fred Cisin wrote: > > >>On Mon, 11 Dec 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> >>>annoyingly, I think that version is too early to support inline assembler, >>>which makes it less useful for any actual DOS development work :( >>> >>> >>TurboC 2.0x DOES explicitly support inline assembler. >> >>http://bdn.borland.com/article/images/20841/tc20ad.jpg >>(notice the list of features of TC2.0 in the box at lower left) >> >> > >You can write inline assembler in your C source, but the Turbo 2.0x >compiler can't do the assembly by itself -- it uses Turbo Assembler >for that. > > Jerome Fine replies: I am having difficulty getting the following code assembled using the watcom assembler. I understand that TASM will do much better, but I have not been able to find a copy. Do you know if TASM might be able to assemble the following code and where I might obtain a copy? ======================================================================= .radix 8 ;????? .386 ;(allow constants over 16 bits) csr1= 17777100q ;base CSR address in PDP-11 space;????? csr2= 4194304d-64d ;17777100q ;base CSR address in PDP-11 space .186 ;*not* USE32 segments code segment use16 'code' assume cs:code .386 start: retf shtdwn: retf wep: public wep mov ax,seg dgroup retf data: mov ebx,ds:addr ;get pointer into memory ;????? add dword ptr ds:addr,2 ;increment address ;????? ret alowi: mov ax,word ptr ds:addr ;fetch value ;????? ret alowo: mov word ptr ds:addr,ax ;save value ;????? ret ahighi: mov ax,word ptr ds:addr+2 ;fetch value ;????? ret ahigho: mov word ptr ds:addr+2,ax ;save value ;????? ret .186 code ends dgroup group data ;????? data segment use16 'data' .386 db 16d dup(0) ;task header (LocalAlloc ptrs etc.) addr dd 0 ;extended address (forced even) ;????? .186 data ends end start ============================================================================ Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 23:15:39 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:15:39 -0700 Subject: Shelving ideas for 3-high terminals Message-ID: OK, I'm in a situation that will sound all too familiar. My collecting habits have started to fill my basement. I'm considering building some sturdy shelving that will let me stack terminals 3 high. Well, really "two high" at standard bench heigh, leaving room underneath for things like workstations and other floor units that are approximately desk height or less. One of you has probably done something similar, or maybe you know of a pre-fab shelving unit that is up to the task, giving me the option of investing labor or cash. Suggestions? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 23:24:32 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:24:32 -0700 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? Message-ID: We have the chips produced from earlier eras, but what attempts have been made to preserve the design tools from those earlier eras? Schematic Capture PCB Layout Netlist Tools IC transistor-level design IC gate-level design etc. I know several of you out there have microprocessor development environments from Intel and TI, IIRC. Ditto for things like PROM programmers. What about the design software? I imagine the first generation of EDA software was created in-house by pioneers of VLSI design. But what about when the tools started to become commodities? What about early releases of software from a company like Mentor Graphics? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 12 00:06:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:06:36 -0800 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <457E29CA.1030403@compsys.to> References: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, <200612120134.kBC1YQ1G090486@lots.reanimators.org>, <457E29CA.1030403@compsys.to> Message-ID: <457DD66C.5579.F3CA8CB@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Dec 2006 at 23:02, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I am having difficulty getting the following code assembled > using the watcom assembler. I understand that TASM will do > much better, but I have not been able to find a copy. Do > you know if TASM might be able to assemble the following > code and where I might obtain a copy? At the expense of looking stupid... Why not use the Microsoft assembler? It's free and reasonably bugless. Cheers, Chuck From hachti at hachti.de Tue Dec 12 00:19:46 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:19:46 +0100 Subject: KDF11-BA boot with RK06 emulation Message-ID: <457E4A02.1090605@hachti.de> Hi folks, I have found the Motorola 68764 EPROM to make new boot ROMs for my PDP11/23+. Everybody seems to discuss the use of KDF11-B3, KDF11-BG etc. and MSCP devices. But what avout RK06/07? In my system I have an Emulex SMD controller which emulates RK06 (with other disks also RK07) drives, an RX02 and a SCSI controller doing the DU MSCP thing. Everything works fine. Only booting is problematic. I have to choose what I want to do by configuring my cards: * For DU, I have to enable auto boot on controller and CPU, nasty thing. Makes booting SCSI possible - but only that. * For RK (DM), I have to use the controller's ROM and to disable the LTC on the CPU. Don't know if there's a line clock on the controller or how to enable it. In that configuration I can boot DM and DY - but no DU * With original PROM I can only boot DY on my system. I want an original PROM image which does all the three. Does that exist? If yes, please let me know. It would be very nice to have a machine with the possibility to choose between all available boot devices on start up. With the nice BOOT> prompt etc. Thank you very much, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From evan at snarc.net Tue Dec 12 00:31:03 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 01:31:03 -0500 Subject: Anyone want 15 minutes of fame? Message-ID: <001001c71db7$195a2fb0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Hi all. I'm writing an article for MIT's Technology Review magazine about vintage computer replica kits. I need someone to interview RIGHT AWAY. It's currently 1:30AM here on the east coast but that is okay. So, if you're awake and have any opinions about the various replica kits, or especially if you've built one or plan to get one soon, then email me OFF-LIST but RIGHT NOW. (Sorry for the late notice!!) I'm at evan at snarc.net. Be sure to leave your phone number because I don't have time for playing tag tonight. Thanks! At least 15 minutes of fame gauranteed. :) - Evan From elf at ucsd.edu Tue Dec 12 00:38:12 2006 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric Flanzbaum) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:38:12 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life In-Reply-To: <200612111609.kBBG8tJt050914@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612111609.kBBG8tJt050914@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061211222204.03370fd8@ucsd.edu> > Well, it took a few years, but I finally brought my PDP-11/70 > panel back to life: > http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/PDP11/PDP-11.html > I'm afraid I don't have the space or power (or noise tolerance!) > to have the real thing around. Has anybody else brought panels > back to life? I'm aware of the Spare Time Gizmos / Ersatz-11 > work, and of course the incredible "Gallery of Old Iron". Any > others? Very nice! I have an 11/70 panel sitting around -- and that looks like an intriguing project to try. I own XDS (SDS) Sigma 9 Panel and brought it back to life. It was quite an undertaking, as the panel consists of about 100 lamps -- and hand wiring all of them took quite a bit of labor. It now blinks -- in some sort of random "computing" fashion -- but is essentially a useless piece of eye-candy when it comes to being a useful computer (after all, I don't have anything else except the programming console). But I must admit, it is a pretty sight watching all those blinkenlights flicker on and off :-) I wired it up basically in tribute to my father for a present -- who was employee #9 (or maybe #10) at SDS way back in the early 1960s. I also own an SDS 940 programming console -- but I've chosen to leave that untouched (a dead soul, if you will). -Eric P.S. -- I'd post a video of it in action, but I don't own a video camera (I'll have to borrow one). I did take a bunch of snapshots in succession and piece them together -- kind of a kludge -- but you get an idea of what it looks like after watching it. Not nearly as nice if it were a smooth video though. If anyone is interested, and I can get around to it, I'll post a picture or two, and the "piecemeal" video on a website in the (maybe near) future. From hachti at hachti.de Tue Dec 12 00:38:25 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:38:25 +0100 Subject: Emulex SC02/C utilities amd diagnostics Message-ID: <457E4E61.3050801@hachti.de> Hi again, the Emulex SC02/C controller seems to be able to boot my DU device (as docs tell, my MSCP SCSI thing is EMulex too). That would be cool. Will try it out in the evening. What about the Emulex original diagnostics and tools (pack formatter etc) for the controller? Does anyone have that? Would be very good to have the tools. Don't know where to get them. Regards, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 12 00:41:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:41:51 -0800 Subject: Anyone want 15 minutes of fame? In-Reply-To: <001001c71db7$195a2fb0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001001c71db7$195a2fb0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <457DDEAF.31566.F5CF05B@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Dec 2006 at 1:31, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Thanks! At least 15 minutes of fame gauranteed. :) Evan, we live in modern times. Mel Gibson barely gets 15 minutes of fame nowadays--there's too much competition. You'd best lower your guarantee to 15 seconds.... ;) Cheers, Chuck From rvc1954 at comcast.net Mon Dec 11 19:23:46 2006 From: rvc1954 at comcast.net (Rick Caprarella) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:23:46 -0500 Subject: Meshna Message-ID: Hello there! I remember Meshna's quite well. Right across from Flax Pond, near the old Coke Plant. I grew up in Lynn near Union Hospital, and went to the old Lynn Trade school in 1969 - 1972 for electronics. I actually walked the 3 miles from my house to Meshna's at least once per week in those years. Tons of big transformers, vacuum tubes, power supplies, O-scopes, and a lot of World War 2 Army stuff thrown in for good measure. I remember the big plastic bags of capacitors, resistors or even radio crystals for 1 dollar. Jeesh, now that I think of it, those are damn good memories!! When I walked up those wooden stairs onto the back long porch and went inside, I remember the place had a particular odor of old wood which I really liked for some reason. Just one of those things I guess! Sorry to hear that time has won the race again, but that will never stop, and some things I will never forget! Rick Caprarella From evan at snarc.net Tue Dec 12 01:01:14 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 02:01:14 -0500 Subject: Anyone want 15 minutes of fame? In-Reply-To: <457DDEAF.31566.F5CF05B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <001701c71dbb$5072a910$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> But don't you know that all members of the press are manipulative liars?* Oops, that is OT here. :) Anyway I just got a call from Sellam and his sound bite trumps all of you! - Evan * Actually, most of us are nice, hard-working, good people. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 1:42 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone want 15 minutes of fame? On 12 Dec 2006 at 1:31, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Thanks! At least 15 minutes of fame gauranteed. :) Evan, we live in modern times. Mel Gibson barely gets 15 minutes of fame nowadays--there's too much competition. You'd best lower your guarantee to 15 seconds.... ;) Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Dec 12 01:46:21 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 02:46:21 -0500 Subject: Mouse systems M4 Optical Mouse References: <010401c6bdd8$0a134b20$0b01a8c0@game> <44DDD26A.7010702@arachelian.com> <200608122039.QAA18564@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <057a01c71dc1$9e3deaa0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 4:04 PM Subject: Re: Mouse systems M4 Optical Mouse > In a standard Sun-type optical mouse, one LED is indeed infrared. One problem > they develop with age is that the LEDs dim at different rates and the IR LED > dims to the point of ineffectiveness before the red one. > > http://www.bjnet.edu.cn/sun-admin/FAQ/F-comp-sys-sun/Q54-0.html > (unfortunately, the repair URL it gives doesn't work for me) > > > If you can find suitable inks, printing vertical and horizontal lines > > on a shiny surface should do fine - but beware that such mouse pads > > exist in at least two and I think three different resolutions; while a > > mouse designed for a fine-resolution pad works fine with a coarser pad, > > the converse is not true. If you want I can approximate the line > > spacing of the mouse pads I have, with a ruler or tape measure and > > some careful counting. > > Yes... in the case of Sun mice, there are two grid resolutions of > mouse pads, and, IIRC, > the coarser one goes with Sun3 and early Sun4-type mice (the beige blocky ones). > Later mice (bluish color scheme) used the higher-resolution pads. > > While it may not sound that Sun information is relevant, Mouse Systems made the > vast bulk of optical mice in the ball-mouse era. What changed from > mouse to mouse > was the host interface. Suns need 4800baud serial, Amigas take raw > quadrature (one > should be able to easily adapt an MS Bus Mouse to work with the Amiga). > > -ethan I finally found what looks to be the mousepad I needed Ebay #2788787188 its the mouse with the pad (I just need the pad). These seem to be cheap if anybody else needed one. Sorry for digging up an old thread. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 12 03:49:34 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 03:49:34 -0600 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <200612120134.kBC1YQ1G090486@lots.reanimators.org> References: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <457DF8DC.4050302@yahoo.co.uk> <20061211165644.B80893@shell.lmi.net> <200612120134.kBC1YQ1G090486@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <457E7B2E.5040607@yahoo.co.uk> Frank McConnell wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Mon, 11 Dec 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> annoyingly, I think that version is too early to support inline assembler, >>> which makes it less useful for any actual DOS development work :( >> TurboC 2.0x DOES explicitly support inline assembler. >> >> http://bdn.borland.com/article/images/20841/tc20ad.jpg >> (notice the list of features of TC2.0 in the box at lower left) > > You can write inline assembler in your C source, but the Turbo 2.0x > compiler can't do the assembly by itself -- it uses Turbo Assembler > for that. Aha, yes - I do remember that now. I never did get it to work, though, although I don't remember the exact nature of the errors I used to get. I think I might still have a TC2.0 environment sitting around on one of the DOS hard disks - I'll have a look if I get the chance. It was quite possibly a case of RTFM and some magic environment variable or other setting was needed somewhere - which is OK if you actually have TFM to read :-) I seem to recall that the integrated editor had real trouble with large files too - but possibly that was just on machines without any EMS / XMS driver voodoo going on. (I'd be surprised if the editor couldn't handle larger files - but then, wasn't notepad in the much later Win95 days still limited to 64KB max?) I really must see if I can drag a later TC environment off tape, assuming they're still readable... cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Dec 12 05:51:36 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:51:36 +0000 Subject: Emulex SC02/C utilities amd diagnostics In-Reply-To: <457E4E61.3050801@hachti.de> References: <457E4E61.3050801@hachti.de> Message-ID: <457E97C8.8050407@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/12/2006 06:38, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi again, > > the Emulex SC02/C controller seems to be able to boot my DU device (as > docs tell, my MSCP SCSI thing is EMulex too). That would be cool. > Will try it out in the evening. > > What about the Emulex original diagnostics and tools (pack formatter > etc) for the controller? > Does anyone have that? Would be very good to have the tools. > Don't know where to get them. You can use the DEC diagnostics with some patches for the Emulex controllers; there's an Emulex manual listing the patches. It's over a decade since I did this, but I thought you could format the drive just using the on-board firmware? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Dec 12 05:51:37 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:51:37 +0000 Subject: KDF11-BA boot with RK06 emulation In-Reply-To: <457E4A02.1090605@hachti.de> References: <457E4A02.1090605@hachti.de> Message-ID: <457E97C9.5060005@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/12/2006 06:19, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > Everybody seems to discuss the use of KDF11-B3, KDF11-BG etc. and MSCP > devices. > > But what avout RK06/07? > In my system I have an Emulex SMD controller which emulates RK06 (with > other disks also RK07) drives, an RX02 and a SCSI controller doing the > DU MSCP thing. Everything works fine. Something like an SC/02 or SC/03? I have one of each of those. However, AFAIK DEC never made a QBus boot PROM that supported RK06/7, because there was never a DEC RK06/7 controller for QBus -- only for Unibus (RK611). The only solution would to change the PROMs on the Emulex controller so that instead of emulating RK06/7 it emulates something else that a DEC bootstrap does exist for. There are several versions of both SC/02 and SC/03, including MSCP and RL emulations, but whether you can just change the PROMs I don't know. It's probably easier to get a different board. > * For DU, I have to enable auto boot on controller and CPU, nasty thing. > Makes booting SCSI possible - but only that. > > * For RK (DM), I have to use the controller's ROM and to disable the LTC > on the CPU. Don't know if there's a line clock on the controller or how > to enable it. In that configuration I can boot DM and DY - but no DU I can't remember if the Emulex controllers have an LTC -- and my manuals are at home while I'm at work ATM -- but if they tell you to disable the one on the KDF11-B I'd assume it's so they don't fight. There's a good collection of Emulex manuals on bitsavers. > * With original PROM I can only boot DY on my system. > > I want an original PROM image which does all the three. Does that exist? DU and DY, yes, but not DM. And you may find that the SCSI controller's DU boot is specific to that card; it probably won't boot any other card because it may not be a real bootstrap: some third party cards just detect the attempt to start the bootstrap at the standard address and do the rest themselves. I don't know whether it would boot properly using the normal DEC DU boot code, but you could try it. You might be able to change one of the bootstraps to respond to an alternate address, which would allow you to enable two bootstraps, and use ODT to jump to the "alternate" one. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 12 06:40:40 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 06:40:40 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Apple ASCII keyboard wanted Message-ID: <457EA348.6050901@yahoo.co.uk> Following was spotted on the mn.general group; I figured that someone here might have an answer! cheers J. ==fwd== Subject: Looking for vintage keyboard From: Paul Czywczynski Newsgroups: mn.general Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 02:16:21 +0000 (UTC) I am looking for a couple of vintage Apple I or II ASCII keyboards. Does anyone know of any sources, local or Internet based? thanks... -Paul From cc at corti-net.de Tue Dec 12 08:20:24 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:20:24 +0100 (CET) Subject: Emulex SC02/C utilities amd diagnostics In-Reply-To: <457E97C8.8050407@dunnington.plus.com> References: <457E4E61.3050801@hachti.de> <457E97C8.8050407@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Dec 2006, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 12/12/2006 06:38, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> What about the Emulex original diagnostics and tools (pack formatter etc) >> for the controller? >> Does anyone have that? Would be very good to have the tools. >> Don't know where to get them. > > You can use the DEC diagnostics with some patches for the Emulex controllers; > there's an Emulex manual listing the patches. It's over a decade since I did > this, but I thought you could format the drive just using the on-board > firmware? I've seen these patches in Philipp's manual and I think they are a bad joke. Anyway they won't test Emulex specific properties of the controllers, nor do the DEC programs know how to create RK06 partitions on an Emulex controller; a RK06 doesn't have partitions. According to http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2004-August/033774.html Ed Kelleher has the original Emulex diagnostics on RX50. Maybe he can make copies with ImageDisk or TeleDisk? Christian From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 12 10:10:57 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:10:57 -0500 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2006, at 12:24 AM, Richard wrote: > We have the chips produced from earlier eras, but what attempts have > been made to preserve the design tools from those earlier eras? > > Schematic Capture > PCB Layout > Netlist Tools > IC transistor-level design > IC gate-level design > etc. > > I know several of you out there have microprocessor development > environments from Intel and TI, IIRC. Ditto for things like PROM > programmers. > > What about the design software? I imagine the first generation of EDA > software was created in-house by pioneers of VLSI design. But what > about when the tools started to become commodities? What about early > releases of software from a company like Mentor Graphics? I've seen two systems (not pure software, but integrated systems) that really blew me away years ago. My memories of both are very fuzzy. One was an ECAD workstation called Daisy; it was a schematic capture system and may have done other things as well. It was gorgeous but I didn't see much of its capabilities. I saw this around 1985 or thereabouts. The other was a PCB layout system made by Calay (or possibly the model was called Calay, not sure)...It was built into a desk; it had a small Qbus PDP-11 (11/23 I believe) built into it, which seemed to be running RT-11 on a text terminal, while the layout was being developed on a large bitmapped color display. The PCB routing capability was built around some sort of specialized processor which the PDP-11 passed data to and from. I gather it was some sort of hardware-assisted autorouting system. I worked in the facility in which this machine lived...I wire-wrapped the prototypes of the PCBs that were designed on that machine, so I didn't get to work with it directly. This was around mid-1986. It is a pipe dream, but I have an eBay saved search for "calay" just in case. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 12 10:27:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 08:27:45 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <457E6801.327.117555D9@cclist.sydex.com> > On Dec 12, 2006, at 12:24 AM, Richard wrote: > We have the chips produced from earlier eras, but what attempts have > been made to preserve the design tools from those earlier eras? I've still got a copy of the first Orcad SDT--ran on a PC-XT (I think it coiuld run on floppies) using CGA or Hercules. I've also got a copy somewhere of an early PCB layout program that ran on an Atari ST. Did anyone salvage any of the very expensive hardware simulators of the mid 80's? I'm having trouble thinking of the brand names... Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 12 10:37:03 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 08:37:03 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? Message-ID: <457EDAAF.1040205@bitsavers.org> > I've seen two systems (not pure software, but integrated systems) > that really blew me away years ago. My memories of both are very > fuzzy. One was an ECAD workstation called Daisy; it was a schematic > capture system and may have done other things as well. It was > gorgeous but I didn't see much of its capabilities. I saw this > around 1985 or thereabouts. Daisy was one of the first ECAD workstations. Started out as 8086 Multibus up through 386. I never saw the earliest version of the OS. The later ones were unix-like. Last versions were Intel 386 PC based. Apple used them before switching to Valid or Mentor, depending on the project. I saw parts of a Calay at a surplus place in the mid 90's. There was also Racal/Redac PCB layout systems. I think I still have the packs from one of these. It ran RSX11 on an SMS disc controller. Most of the small stand-alone systems disappeared once IBM PC ECAD systems developed. There were one or two companies selling CAD tools into the Macintosh market, but they were pretty awful. There was one system that was popular for schematic capture on Macs that was used internally at Apple up through the late 90s. DEC used a schematic capture system from Stanford through the 70's and early 80's (SUDS, Stanford University Drawing System). The MIT CADR was designed using this as well. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 12 10:48:04 2006 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 16:48:04 +0000 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: <457E6801.327.117555D9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <457E6801.327.117555D9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <457EDD44.1080801@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've still got a copy of the first Orcad SDT--ran on a PC-XT (I think > it coiuld run on floppies) using CGA or Hercules. From what I can gather, you needed two floppy drives - one for the OrCAD program disc, and another for your 'work' disc. I've been looking for a copy of SDT/386 (and the manuals) for a while - my eBay stored search hasn't fired in months :( -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 12 10:51:09 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 08:51:09 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? Message-ID: <457EDDFD.3040909@bitsavers.org> > Did anyone salvage any of the very expensive hardware simulators of > the mid 80's? Mentor and Valid both had systems which could integrate actual parts into a software simulation (Valid's was called RealChip). The largest of these sorts of things were seas of Xilix FPGAs that attemtpted to simulate entire designs. The software wasn't very good, and while they simulated the design a few orders of magnitude faster than software simulators, they still were not very fast. One of these showed up at BDI this past year, with absolutely no interest from bidders. I worked on MacOS bootstrapping of both the G3 at Somerset and the Exponential BiCMOS processors on those. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 12 11:05:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:05:03 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: <457EDD44.1080801@philpem.me.uk> References: , <457E6801.327.117555D9@cclist.sydex.com>, <457EDD44.1080801@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <457E70BF.2822.11977C57@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Dec 2006 at 16:48, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > I've still got a copy of the first Orcad SDT--ran on a PC-XT (I think > > it coiuld run on floppies) using CGA or Hercules. > > From what I can gather, you needed two floppy drives - one for the OrCAD > program disc, and another for your 'work' disc. Yes--and the printer options were rather limited. I remember having to print to disk and then use my own program to translate Epson graphics to the printer I had at the time. The library wasn't the greatest, but it was pretty simple to add parts to it. All in all, for the limited hardware it had, it wasn't a bad system. I used it quite a bit, even if it meant taping together sheets of tractor-feed printer paper. It was still easier than drawing by hand- -and you got some very rudimentary design checking and a BOM. One of the first programs for which I used a mouse. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 12 11:13:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:13:46 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: <457EDDFD.3040909@bitsavers.org> References: <457EDDFD.3040909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <457E72CA.25943.119F7675@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Dec 2006 at 8:51, Al Kossow wrote: > Mentor and Valid both had systems which could integrate actual parts > into a software simulation (Valid's was called RealChip). ZyCAD was the one I was trying to remember. A friend went to work there swearing that it was "the way of the future". One of those technological dead-ends, I guess. Flash in the pan. Cheers, Chuck From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Dec 12 11:35:46 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:35:46 +0100 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: <200612100517.AAA24722@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200612100517.AAA24722@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1165944946.6046.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2006-12-10 at 00:15 -0500, der Mouse wrote: > > I have a list of tapes of which I have little knowledge. > > Currently I cannot (easily) read these tapes. > > Is there anything of interest. I think they are all for RICS. > > Here are texts from labels: > > I'd love to get copies of the bits on these tapes. I'm not sure how > best to make that happen, especially as the footer on your mail implies > you're in Finland (and I'm in North America). I think I have a working > TK50 drive, but getting the tapes to me would be mildly expensive (and > somewhat risky given the chance of their getting lost or damaged in > transit). I'm in Norway, which is quite a bit closer to Finland. I could probably read these tapes in, if nobody closer shows up. Cannot afford the shipping right now, though, so somebody more interested in the content would have to cover that bit. -Tore :) From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Dec 12 11:43:46 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:43:46 +0100 Subject: ASR 33 repair tips sought. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165945426.6046.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2006-12-10 at 21:07 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > But what failure mode would cause extra characters from the keyboard ? > > When you press a key, you relase a lever at the right side of the > keyboard. This rotates (front end rises), turning the well-known H-plate Why is this so well-known? Was it a frequently failing part? I've noticed this in the past as well, people who had no idea what the codebar reset bail was instantly recognized the H-plate. -Tore :) From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 12 11:42:28 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:42:28 -0500 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200612121744.kBCHibFl016553@keith.ezwind.net> I think I still may have a copy of the Great Softwestern pcb layout addon for AutoCAD. The first board I ever did on a computer was on AutoCAD Ver 1.x I plotted it in ink at 2x to mylar and the pcb house worked from them. Just my .02 Bob On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:24:32 -0700, Richard wrote: >We have the chips produced from earlier eras, but what attempts have >been made to preserve the design tools from those earlier eras? >Schematic Capture >PCB Layout >Netlist Tools >IC transistor-level design >IC gate-level design >etc. >I know several of you out there have microprocessor development >environments from Intel and TI, IIRC. Ditto for things like PROM >programmers. >What about the design software? I imagine the first generation of EDA >software was created in-house by pioneers of VLSI design. But what >about when the tools started to become commodities? What about early >releases of software from a company like Mentor Graphics? >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 12 11:52:16 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:52:16 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: <457E72CA.25943.119F7675@cclist.sydex.com> References: <457EDDFD.3040909@bitsavers.org> <457E72CA.25943.119F7675@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 10:24 PM -0700 12/11/06, Richard wrote: >What about the design software? I imagine the first generation of EDA >software was created in-house by pioneers of VLSI design. But what >about when the tools started to become commodities? What about early >releases of software from a company like Mentor Graphics? Have you seen the prices of just a single seat of that kind of software? Plus they require license servers for the software to work. It doesn't matter if you have the software without the licenses the stuff won't run, and both tend to be highly guarded. Also a lot of in-house software is still used. This isn't the kind of thing that finds its way out of the companies that use/write it. At 9:13 AM -0800 12/12/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: >ZyCAD was the one I was trying to remember. A friend went to work >there swearing that it was "the way of the future". One of those >technological dead-ends, I guess. Flash in the pan. That's the one I was thinking of. I helped support a bunch of the boxes nearly 10 years ago. Rather fragile frightening boxes as I recall. After Zycad went under we kept them alive for a short time via cannibalization until we could get everything moved off of them. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Dec 12 11:53:10 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:53:10 +0100 Subject: BASF 6114 disk drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165945991.6046.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2006-12-10 at 20:26 +0100, Christian Corti wrote: > Hello, > > I have one of those "washing machine" disk drive which uses media with 11 > platters in nearly mint condition (heads are locked, test protocol from > the manufacturer is included). I think that this is a rebaged CDC or > Memorex drive. I'd like to use this drive and therefore need any kind of > manual for the BASF 6114. My idea is to check out the drive and disk packs > and then let some students build an interface that connects this drive to > a SCSI bus ;-)) Do you have a picture of it? http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/nd560-unproc.jpeg featured what ND called the ND-574, a CDC 9766 SMD (the interface name seems to me to have been taken from this drive). My reference cites 19 data surfaces - presumably 11 platters, one of which is only readable from one side, and another of which is used as servo? The formatted capacity is cited in this manual as both 225 and 288, I'm not sure why. -Tore From pechter at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 11:53:09 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:53:09 -0500 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: <457EDAAF.1040205@bitsavers.org> References: <457EDAAF.1040205@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I thought the RACAL-REDAC stuff ran on RT11... with an attached VT11/VR17 to do the vector graphics. I thought it would be the coolest thing. Last time I saw that was on an 11/34 (IIRC) in '84 or so at a company outside of Trenton, NJ. I think it was on RT11 on RL01/02 or RK05 packs. Bill On 12/12/06, Al Kossow wrote: > > > I've seen two systems (not pure software, but integrated systems) > > that really blew me away years ago. My memories of both are very > > fuzzy. One was an ECAD workstation called Daisy; it was a schematic > > capture system and may have done other things as well. It was > > gorgeous but I didn't see much of its capabilities. I saw this > > around 1985 or thereabouts. > > Daisy was one of the first ECAD workstations. Started out as 8086 > Multibus up through 386. I never saw the earliest version of the OS. The > later ones were unix-like. Last versions were Intel 386 PC based. Apple > used them before switching to Valid or Mentor, depending on the project. > > I saw parts of a Calay at a surplus place in the mid 90's. There was > also Racal/Redac PCB layout systems. I think I still have the packs from > one of these. It ran RSX11 on an SMS disc controller. > > Most of the small stand-alone systems disappeared once IBM PC ECAD > systems developed. There were one or two companies selling CAD tools > into the Macintosh market, but they were pretty awful. There was one > system that was popular for schematic capture on Macs that was used > internally at Apple up through the late 90s. > > DEC used a schematic capture system from Stanford through the 70's and > early 80's (SUDS, Stanford University Drawing System). The MIT CADR was > designed using this as well. > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 12 12:02:25 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:02:25 -0800 Subject: BASF 6114 disk drive Message-ID: <457EEEB1.6090407@bitsavers.org> > Do you have a picture of it? I picture would be useful. If it's from Dortmund, I don't seem to have a picture of it. The 2311 drives I've been able to identify from the pics were made by are CDC, Century Data, and Memorex. > http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/nd560-unproc.jpeg The 9766 is the drive with the pack on top. There is a CDC FSD drive directly below that. Someone at CHM is currently writing a history of the SMD interface for the mass storage SIG. The interface appears to originate with the 80mb 9762 and 40mb 9760 in 1973. Formatted capacity can vary on a number of factors, including number of sectors per track. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 12:22:26 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:22:26 -0700 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:52:16 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > At 10:24 PM -0700 12/11/06, Richard wrote: > >What about the design software? I imagine the first generation of EDA > >software was created in-house by pioneers of VLSI design. But what > >about when the tools started to become commodities? What about early > >releases of software from a company like Mentor Graphics? > > Have you seen the prices of just a single seat of that kind of > software? Yes, but I hadn't thought about licensing, that's a good point. I wonder if these companies even keep around a piece of their history or if its lost forever? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 12 13:00:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:00:52 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: <200612121744.kBCHibFl016553@keith.ezwind.net> References: , <200612121744.kBCHibFl016553@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <457E8BE4.4570.1201849B@cclist.sydex.com> I've also got a copy of Schema SDT for the PC-XT/MS-DOS. It was easier to use than OrCAD, IIRC. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Dec 12 13:08:56 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 14:08:56 -0500 Subject: [rescue] Need any "old" tape media? In-Reply-To: <200612071622.22234.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200612071622.22234.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200612121408.56723.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 07 December 2006 16:22, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I've got a stack of 8mm (doesn't mention a size, a mix of Verbatim > data tapes, and Sony and Fuji video tapes), 4mm DDS1 (both 60M and > 90M), and DLT3 tapes at work which we're getting set to throw away... > the DDS/8mm tapes have some data on them, and will be degaussed... the > DLT3's are unused, from several years ago. > > Asking $2/tape plus shipping. I've got 50-100 of each available. If > I don't hear anything by mid next week, they'll be thrown in the > trash. I just noticed that I've got about 2x as much media as I thought. So, I'm asking $1/DLT3 tape, or $25 for a box of 40 tapes (plus shipping). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 12 12:51:11 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:51:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 11, 6 02:35:16 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > Yes. I have something that calls itself an 'Ultra-X', I assume it's some > > fairly early X-terminal. [...] > > I don't think its so early; the earliest X terminals used custom > monitor, mouse and keyboard connections. They didn't start using I have an idea this thing is running X10, not X11... > standard VGA/PS2 style connections until the mid to late 90s. By this It's not PS/2. It's a AT-style 5 pin DIN for the keyboard and an RS232 serial mouse (I think either Logitec or Microsoft). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 12 12:53:55 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:53:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cleaning disk packs (was: RK05 images) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 11, 6 02:38:44 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > Now, the manuals for the RLs and RK06/07 specificially warn against > > cleaning the packs by hand. [...] > > Whats the density of an RL01 compared to an RK05? Twice as much data per surface (approximately), I have an idea it's about the same number of cylinders (202 on the RK05, 256 on the RL01?) The RL02 is twice as many cylinders as the RL01, otherwise everything's the same. More importantly (for thsi) the flying height of the heads is half as high on the RL's as on the RK05 according to the manual. The figures 100 microns for the RK05 and 50 microns for the RL01 spring to mind but I might be mis-remembering them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 12 13:07:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 19:07:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR 33 repair tips sought. In-Reply-To: <1165945426.6046.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> from "Tore Sinding Bekkedal" at Dec 12, 6 06:43:46 pm Message-ID: > > When you press a key, you relase a lever at the right side of the > > keyboard. This rotates (front end rises), turning the well-known H-plate > > Why is this so well-known? Was it a frequently failing part? I've > noticed this in the past as well, people who had no idea what the > codebar reset bail was instantly recognized the H-plate. No, it never fails AFAIK. The reason it's well-knwon is that it's the part you have to remove in order to remvoe the typing unit (main chassis with the printer mechanism, motor and punch on it) from the base pan. And since that's something you should do if shipping an ASR33 if you don't have the hold-down screw, the H-plate is fairly well known. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 12 13:13:33 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:13:33 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? Message-ID: <457EFF5D.9080204@bitsavers.org> >> Have you seen the prices of just a single seat of that kind of >> software? > > Yes, but I hadn't thought about licensing, that's a good point. > > I wonder if these companies even keep around a piece of their history > or if its lost forever? Look at the company you work for. Does E&S have copies of everything that they have produced? The rest of the world is no different. Once a product is no longer a source of revenue, it is disposed of. If it is archived, the chances of anyone getting access to it outside the company is vanishingly small. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 13:24:39 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:24:39 -0700 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:51:11 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > > > > In article , > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > > > Yes. I have something that calls itself an 'Ultra-X', I assume it's some > > > fairly early X-terminal. [...] > > > > I don't think its so early; the earliest X terminals used custom > > monitor, mouse and keyboard connections. They didn't start using > > I have an idea this thing is running X10, not X11... Oh, interesting...how does it boot? Server in ROM or loaded via tftp, etc.? > > standard VGA/PS2 style connections until the mid to late 90s. By this > > It's not PS/2. It's a AT-style 5 pin DIN for the keyboard and an RS232 > serial mouse (I think either Logitec or Microsoft). Yes, that sounds more of the period :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 13:25:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:25:40 -0700 Subject: Cleaning disk packs (was: RK05 images) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:53:55 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > More importantly (for thsi) the flying height of the heads is half as > high on the RL's as on the RK05 according to the manual. The figures 100 > microns for the RK05 and 50 microns for the RL01 spring to mind but I > might be mis-remembering them. That's a good point, I should check the head height from my docs. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 13:27:31 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:27:31 -0700 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:13:33 -0800. <457EFF5D.9080204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <457EFF5D.9080204 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > >> Have you seen the prices of just a single seat of that kind of > >> software? > > > > Yes, but I hadn't thought about licensing, that's a good point. > > > > I wonder if these companies even keep around a piece of their history > > or if its lost forever? > > Look at the company you work for. Worked :-). I haven't worked at E&S since um... 1994, I think. > Does E&S have copies of everything that they have produced? I didn't see things earlier than 1988 when I was there; I never saw a Line Drawing System, a Picture System or a Picture System II. I did see a PS/390. > The rest of the world is no different. Once a product is no longer a > source of revenue, it is disposed of. If it is archived, the chances of > anyone getting access to it outside the company is vanishingly small. I wonder if any hobbyist has ever tried to secure a source code escroe on the stuff they use :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brian at quarterbyte.com Tue Dec 12 13:32:48 2006 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:32:48 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? Message-ID: <457E9360.20716.3CF942D3@brian.quarterbyte.com> Are you asking only about chip design software, or are you including circuit design software? IBM had proprietary schematic editing, automated layout, automated manufacturing, etc in the early 1960's if not earlier. Simulation too if I remember correctly. The schematics were printed on line printers and were (are) called Automated Logic Diagrams (ALD). See e.g. http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/082/ibmrd0802F.pdf http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/ALDs-fromAustralia.html There is more detail in http://bitsavers.trailing- edge.com/pdf/ibm/logic Data entry was originally text based. When the 2250 graphic display unit became available around 1967, IBM moved from text-based ALD editing to graphical. See e.g. http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=805397 It would be pretty wonderful if all of THAT code was still around. Could run it under simulation. Brian From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 12 14:31:00 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:31:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <457E29CA.1030403@compsys.to> References: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <457DF8DC.4050302@yahoo.co.uk> <20061211165644.B80893@shell.lmi.net> <200612120134.kBC1YQ1G090486@lots.reanimators.org> <457E29CA.1030403@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20061212122630.M31812@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 11 Dec 2006, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I am having difficulty getting the following code assembled > using the watcom assembler. I understand that TASM will do > much better, but I have not been able to find a copy. Do > you know if TASM might be able to assemble the following > code and where I might obtain a copy? > . . . > data: mov ebx,ds:addr ;get pointer into memory ;????? > . . . > data segment use16 'data' > . . . > data ends > . . . AMONG OTHER THINGS, TASM would probably not be happy about naming both a code offset AND a segment "data" Strip it down. Remove everything that does assemble, until you isolate specific items that won't assemble. You can put them back in afterwards, but right now, they get in the way of finding out what is going wrong. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 12 14:41:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 20:41:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 12, 6 12:24:39 pm Message-ID: > > > > Yes. I have something that calls itself an 'Ultra-X', I assume it's some > > > > fairly early X-terminal. [...] > > > > > > I don't think its so early; the earliest X terminals used custom > > > monitor, mouse and keyboard connections. They didn't start using > > > > I have an idea this thing is running X10, not X11... > > Oh, interesting...how does it boot? Server in ROM or loaded via tftp, > etc.? There's a daughterboard to the 'video board' (the one with the 34010 on it) which contains 10 EPROMs (I forgrt the size of each). Those contain the Xserver and fonts. There are, IIRC, a total of 4 PCBs in the unit. There's a little SMPSU, the video board (34010 + RAM + RAMDAC + a little support logic), the ROM daugherboard and an I/O board (80188 + standard serial, ethernet, keyboard interface (programmed 8042), etc chips. I should have scheamtics somewhere so I can find more details if you're interested. > > > > standard VGA/PS2 style connections until the mid to late 90s. By this > > > > It's not PS/2. It's a AT-style 5 pin DIN for the keyboard and an RS232 > > serial mouse (I think either Logitec or Microsoft). > > Yes, that sounds more of the period :-). A minor clarification, IIRC, the unit can be set to use either a Microsoft or Logitec serial mouse in one of the setup menus. -tony From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Dec 12 14:49:13 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:49:13 -0500 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 12 Dec 2006 08:37:03 PST." <457EDAAF.1040205@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200612122049.kBCKnETe023362@mwave.heeltoe.com> Al Kossow wrote: > >DEC used a schematic capture system from Stanford through the 70's and >early 80's (SUDS, Stanford University Drawing System). The MIT CADR was >designed using this as well. Someone told me they hacked SUDS to work with X11 for the XKL folks. I don't have a copy, but wish I did (it would come in handy). I do have some hacked up tools for reading SUDS files and descriptions of the data file format. -brad From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Dec 12 15:06:01 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 22:06:01 +0100 Subject: ASR 33 repair tips sought. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457F19B9.3080702@bluewin.ch> Tony Duell wrote: >>> When you press a key, you relase a lever at the right side of the >>> keyboard. This rotates (front end rises), turning the well-known H-plate >> Why is this so well-known? Was it a frequently failing part? I've >> noticed this in the past as well, people who had no idea what the >> codebar reset bail was instantly recognized the H-plate. > > No, it never fails AFAIK. > > The reason it's well-knwon is that it's the part you have to remove in > order to remvoe the typing unit (main chassis with the printer mechanism, > motor and punch on it) from the base pan. And since that's something you > should do if shipping an ASR33 if you don't have the hold-down screw, the > H-plate is fairly well known. > I have removed exactly that a couple of times now.. My ASR33 problem turned out to be a slightly bend universal lever in the keyboard. But I will also need to readjust the clutch stop. Rather difficult to reach with the screwdriver... Jos From steve at radiorobots.com Tue Dec 12 08:27:58 2006 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:27:58 -0500 Subject: Meshna In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457EBC6E.4040203@radiorobots.com> Rick Caprarella wrote: >Hello there! > > I remember Meshna's quite well. Right across from Flax Pond, near the >old Coke Plant. I grew up in Lynn near Union Hospital, and went to the old >Lynn Trade school in 1969 - 1972 for electronics. I actually walked the 3 >miles from my house to Meshna's at least once per week in those years. Tons >of big transformers, vacuum tubes, power supplies, O-scopes, and a lot of >World War 2 Army stuff thrown in for good measure. I remember the big >plastic bags of capacitors, resistors or even radio crystals for 1 dollar. >Jeesh, now that I think of it, those are damn good memories!! When I walked >up those wooden stairs onto the back long porch and went inside, I remember >the place had a particular odor of old wood which I really liked for some >reason. Just one of those things I guess! Sorry to hear that time has won >the race again, but that will never stop, and some things I will never >forget! > > > Rick Caprarella > > > > 19 Allerton St? From Lee.Courtney at windriver.com Tue Dec 12 09:41:53 2006 From: Lee.Courtney at windriver.com (Courtney, Lee) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:41:53 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life Message-ID: <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1C00@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com> Hi Eric, The Computer History Museum recently acquired a SDS 910, 920, and accepted donation of a SDS 930 (940 predecessor) from History San Jose. See pics at http://www.flickr.com/photos/lee_courtney/sets/72157594391790915/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/lee_courtney/sets/72157594391722530/. If your Dad is in the Bay Area would be happy to give him a tour at the Museum. Just had one of the original SDS/XDS HW designers come thru over Thanksgiving. Cheers, Lee Courtney Product Line Manager - Linux for Consumer Devices Wind River 500 Wind River Way Alameda, California 94501 Office: 510-749-2763 Cell: 650-704-3934 Yahoo IM: charlesleecourtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Flanzbaum > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 10:38 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life > > > Well, it took a few years, but I finally brought my > PDP-11/70 > panel back to life: > > > http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/PDP11/PDP-11.html > > > I'm afraid I don't have the space or power (or noise > tolerance!) > to have the real thing around. Has anybody > else brought panels > back to life? I'm aware of the Spare > Time Gizmos / Ersatz-11 > work, and of course the incredible > "Gallery of Old Iron". Any > others? > > > Very nice! I have an 11/70 panel sitting around -- and that > looks like an intriguing project to try. > > > > I own XDS (SDS) Sigma 9 Panel and brought it back to life. It was > quite an undertaking, as the panel consists of about 100 lamps -- and > hand wiring all of them took quite a bit of labor. > > It now blinks -- in some sort of random "computing" fashion -- but is > essentially a useless piece of eye-candy when it comes to being a > useful computer (after all, I don't have anything else except the > programming console). But I must admit, it is a pretty sight watching > all those blinkenlights flicker on and off :-) > > I wired it up basically in tribute to my father for a present -- who > was employee #9 (or maybe #10) at SDS way back in the early 1960s. > > > I also own an SDS 940 programming console -- but I've chosen to leave > that untouched (a dead soul, if you will). > > > -Eric > > > P.S. -- I'd post a video of it in action, but I don't own a video > camera (I'll have to borrow one). I did take a bunch of snapshots in > succession and piece them together -- kind of a kludge -- but you get > an idea of what it looks like after watching it. Not nearly as nice > if it were a smooth video though. If anyone is interested, and I can > get around to it, I'll post a picture or two, and the "piecemeal" > video on a website in the (maybe near) future. > > From kossow at computerhistory.org Tue Dec 12 09:47:02 2006 From: kossow at computerhistory.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:47:02 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? Message-ID: > We have the chips produced from earlier eras, but what attempts have > been made to preserve the design tools from those earlier eras? This is the same problem I've run into with minicomputer/mainframe software. No one thought it was important to save this, or if they did I've not been able to find anyone willing to release it. Some of the circuit design stuff (like ECAP) is around. I have some of the early Berkeley CAD tools tapes, and a few versions of Spice. Livermore/Stanford's SCALD system (which morphed into the SCALD product from Valid) is public domain, but I can't find anyone who saved a copy. I don't know of anyone who saved a complete Daisy Logician, or a Valid Logic SCALDstation (w software), or the VTI CAD tools (written in MAINSAIL). You'll also find this stuff was tightly licensed in the workstation world, since the price per seat was (is) so high. From HrTchDmoor at aol.com Tue Dec 12 12:48:32 2006 From: HrTchDmoor at aol.com (HrTchDmoor at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 13:48:32 EST Subject: Q-Bus Codar Clock Message-ID: Do you have any of these clock modules available for sell, P/N: ASM-951-1200? Her-Tech Solutions, Inc Donna Moore/ President 760-730-1499 ext: 111 donna at htsolutions.org From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 15:52:35 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 14:52:35 -0700 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? Message-ID: I had a dead VT220 at some point (just the monitor, no keyboard). I kept the enclosure with the idea of making something out of it someday. Has anyone taken 'classic' terminal enclosures and put a Mini-ITX PC inside? I was thinking an appropriately sized LCD display and the ITX mobo and possibly a CD-ROM drive. See for more on mini-itx projects. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 16:07:21 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:07:21 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:41:53 -0800. <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1C00@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com> Message-ID: In article <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1C00 at ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com>, "Courtney, Lee" writes: > The Computer History Museum recently acquired a SDS 910, 920, and > accepted donation of a SDS 930 (940 predecessor) from History San Jose. > See pics at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/lee_courtney/sets/72157594391790915/ and > http://www.flickr.com/photos/lee_courtney/sets/72157594391722530/. Interesting! Is the console typewriter (the red one) a modified IBM Selectric? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 15:50:19 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 14:50:19 -0700 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 20:41:09 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > I should have scheamtics somewhere so I can find more details if you're > interested. Yes, that would be interesting! To me, anyway :). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Dec 12 16:20:49 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 23:20:49 +0100 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165962049.12049.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 14:52 -0700, Richard wrote: > Has anyone taken 'classic' terminal enclosures and put a Mini-ITX PC > inside? I was thinking an appropriately sized LCD display and the ITX > mobo and possibly a CD-ROM drive. IMHO, that's just dull until you start driving the CRT itself. :) What's the point in just stripping out fixable hardware to stuff in the very kind of generic PC crap us cctalk escapists so loathe? Where's the challenge? Where's the fun? -Tore From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 16:40:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:40:43 -0700 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 23:20:49 +0100. <1165962049.12049.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: In article <1165962049.12049.14.camel at localhost.localdomain>, Tore Sinding Bekkedal writes: > What's the point in just stripping out fixable hardware to stuff in the > very kind of generic PC crap us cctalk escapists so loathe? Where's the > challenge? Where's the fun? Speak for yourself there, buddy. I have lots of fun with x86 stuff. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 12 16:47:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 22:47:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 12, 6 02:50:19 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > I should have scheamtics somewhere so I can find more details if you're > > interested. > > Yes, that would be interesting! To me, anyway :). OK, a roigh description of what's on the various boards. The I/O board contains anm 80188 with 512K DRAM (4 off 44256s) and a pair of 27C512 (64K byte) EPROMS. One is labelled COMM, the other TCP (hmm... ;-)) Ther's the 8042 microcontrolelr I mentioned which handles the PC/AT keyboard interface, along with the handshake lines for a centronics printer port and an interface to an E2PROM that holds the configuration. Sireail I/O uses a thing called a 2692, which seems to be a dual serial chip, for the mouse and host RS232 interfaces. Etehrnet uses the standard 8390 + 8391 chips, with am 8392 thinwire tranceiver on the same board (there are jumpers to select between that and the DA15 AUI port). One milidly odd thing is that there's no DC-DC converter for the ethernet transceiver. Insttair, the PSU has an isolated 9V output to run it. I don;t think there's anything more to say abotu the PSU. The video board hs the 34010 on it (of course), a copuple of 27512 EPROMS (presuambly boot code for the video processor), 2M of DRAM (16 off 44256s) and 1M of VRAM (8 off 24256s). Oh, and a RAMDAC The EPROM daugetboard has 7 pairs of 27256s on it (so a total of 14 * 64K of EPROM). -tony From reevejd at mchsi.com Tue Dec 12 17:19:02 2006 From: reevejd at mchsi.com (John D. Reeve) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 17:19:02 -0600 Subject: Anyone want 15 minutes of fame? References: <001001c71db7$195a2fb0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <005f01c71e43$f16ea1b0$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> Evan, would you mind posting a list of the available kits? Thanks, John R. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 12:31 AM Subject: Anyone want 15 minutes of fame? > Hi all. I'm writing an article for MIT's Technology Review magazine about > vintage computer replica kits. I need someone to interview RIGHT AWAY. > It's currently 1:30AM here on the east coast but that is okay. So, if > you're awake and have any opinions about the various replica kits, or > especially if you've built one or plan to get one soon, then email me > OFF-LIST but RIGHT NOW. (Sorry for the late notice!!) I'm at > evan at snarc.net. Be sure to leave your phone number because I don't have > time for playing tag tonight. > > Thanks! At least 15 minutes of fame gauranteed. :) > > - Evan > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 12 17:22:52 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:22:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: <1165962049.12049.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1165962049.12049.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20061212152136.K41223@shell.lmi.net> > On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 14:52 -0700, Richard wrote: > > Has anyone taken 'classic' terminal enclosures and put a Mini-ITX PC > > inside? I was thinking an appropriately sized LCD display and the ITX > > mobo and possibly a CD-ROM drive. On Tue, 12 Dec 2006, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > IMHO, that's just dull until you start driving the CRT itself. :) > What's the point in just stripping out fixable hardware to stuff in the > very kind of generic PC crap us cctalk escapists so loathe? Where's the > challenge? Where's the fun? Put an Ampro little board and floppy drive in it, and call it a VT220 CP/M computer :-) From sethm at loomcom.com Tue Dec 12 17:36:55 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:36:55 -0800 Subject: TI Silent 700 models Message-ID: <20061212233655.GA10669@motherbrain.retronet.net> I have two TI Silent 700s, both claim to be model 743 KSRs. One of them only produces upper case. The other does lower case with small caps. Did any model Silent 700 ever do "true" lower-case, with descenders and ascenders, as opposed to small-caps only? -Seth From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 17:49:49 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 16:49:49 -0700 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:22:52 -0800. <20061212152136.K41223@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20061212152136.K41223 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > Put an Ampro little board and floppy drive in it, > and call it a VT220 CP/M computer :-) Now that I think about it, I could probably hork together a system for that TMS320C25 board I've got laying around :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Dec 12 19:02:32 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 17:02:32 -0800 Subject: I/O Selectric Typewriter Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036623@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Many of the computer systems of the 1960's and and early 70's used the IBM Selectric typewriter as a console device. A few even used it as a peripheral (ex. IBM 2741). The typewriters were not standard office machines. They had a series of switches indicating status, key strike, end of line, etc. They also had solenoids on the control bars, and a timing distributor. I've been looking for one of these modified Selectrics for several months. Does anyone in this group have one they would be willing to sell or trade? Or knows where one is available? Billy From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Dec 12 20:02:49 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 21:02:49 -0500 Subject: Needed: Tape drive for reading DC300 and DC600 tapes (SCSI?) Message-ID: <200612122102.49426.pat@computer-refuge.org> I've got a stack of DC300 and DC600 tapes which I'd like to get images, for archiving. I'd like to find a SCSI drive which can read the tapes, so I can archive them, and hopefully make images of some of them available (they're install media for the Intel iPSC/860, and ETA-10 supercomputers). Another option is to send tapes to someone to make images of, but I've got well over 100 tapes, and I'm not quite sure if any of them have data that shouldn't be made available (other than the source code tapes, which I may not be able to make available). After this, I'm hoping to make available whatever I can (I also have some 9-tracks of install media for the ETA-10 and CDC Cyber 205). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 20:08:20 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 21:08:20 -0500 Subject: Q22 BUS parity check? Message-ID: Hello, I read the Q22 specification (search "Q22 specification" on this page: http://www.chd.dyndns.org/qbus_ide/ ) but the parity check function is still not clear to me. My questions are, 1. Is there parity check when interrupt vector is read ? 2. Is there parity check if IO page is read? 3. What is the polarity of the parity bit? Those questions are not answered from the specification. Any expert here? Thanks vax, 9000 From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Dec 12 20:07:10 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:07:10 -0800 Subject: TI Silent 700 models In-Reply-To: <20061212233655.GA10669@motherbrain.retronet.net> References: <20061212233655.GA10669@motherbrain.retronet.net> Message-ID: <457F604E.2090601@msm.umr.edu> Seth J. Morabito wrote: > > >Did any model Silent 700 ever do "true" lower-case, with descenders and >ascenders, as opposed to small-caps only? > > I had some users back in the day when I supported Silent 700's who complained about the lack of descenders for some projects we had, so in some models there was a problem. I never heard that it was resolved in any of the ones I saw. I don't have or remember model numbers any more, but my collection of units supported ranged from the 300 baud with and without acoutic couplers to the units with bubble memory, and 1200 buad modems, etc. Jim From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 20:36:06 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:36:06 +1300 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: <20061212152136.K41223@shell.lmi.net> References: <1165962049.12049.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061212152136.K41223@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 12/13/06, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 14:52 -0700, Richard wrote: > > > Has anyone taken 'classic' terminal enclosures and put a Mini-ITX PC > > > inside? I was thinking an appropriately sized LCD display and the ITX > > > mobo and possibly a CD-ROM drive. > Put an Ampro little board and floppy drive in it, > and call it a VT220 CP/M computer :-) Or an SBC6120 and make into an all-in-one PDP-8 with a handle ;-) -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 12 20:39:40 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 21:39:40 -0500 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: References: <1165962049.12049.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061212152136.K41223@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2006, at 9:36 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > > Has anyone taken 'classic' terminal enclosures and put a Mini- >> ITX PC >> > > inside? I was thinking an appropriately sized LCD display and >> the ITX >> > > mobo and possibly a CD-ROM drive. > >> Put an Ampro little board and floppy drive in it, >> and call it a VT220 CP/M computer :-) > > Or an SBC6120 and make into an all-in-one PDP-8 with a handle ;-) Oh that would be too damn cool. I *heart* my SBC6120. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 21:40:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 20:40:55 -0700 Subject: I/O Selectric Typewriter In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 17:02:32 -0800. <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036623@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: In article <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036623 at wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, "Billy Pettit" writes: > I've been looking for one of these modified Selectrics for several months. Join the club! I've been looking for one for years now. Its hard to even find *pictures* of these puppies on the net. I've had searches running on ebay for over a year and they've never burped out a hit. The model I remember using was turquoise in color and had the silver square IBM model number plate on it (although I can't remember the model). It took a type ball element, and had a keyboard similar to a selectric, but the physical enclosure was all different. Behind the typewriter was a big portion of the enclosure that presumably had the control electronics. It did not have an integrated acoustic coupler, was not integrated into a desk (pictures of "Model 2741" units on the net show the integrated desk version) and ran at 134.5 baud. I was using it in 1979/1980 and even then it was old, but it was an inexpensive way to get "letter quality" output on a terminal. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 12 22:16:41 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 20:16:41 -0800 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:52 PM -0700 12/12/06, Richard wrote: >I had a dead VT220 at some point (just the monitor, no keyboard). I >kept the enclosure with the idea of making something out of it >someday. > >Has anyone taken 'classic' terminal enclosures and put a Mini-ITX PC >inside? I was thinking an appropriately sized LCD display and the ITX >mobo and possibly a CD-ROM drive. I've been wanting to put a Mini-ITX board in a working VT100, and set it up so that it will work as a desktop PDP-10. I've not done it as I don't have room to setup one of my VT100's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 22:29:51 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 20:29:51 -0800 Subject: Q22 BUS parity check? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, I did some experiment and found the answer. See below. On 12/12/06, 9000 VAX wrote: > > Hello, > I read the Q22 specification (search "Q22 specification" on this page: > http://www.chd.dyndns.org/qbus_ide/ ) but the parity check function is > still not clear to me. My questions are, > 1. Is there parity check when interrupt vector is read ? Not tested. My guess is no. 2. Is there parity check if IO page is read? It is either no parity for I/O page, or my implementation is wrong. I get machine check error when "show dev", if I/O page parity on my board is enabled. 3. What is the polarity of the parity bit? (background: Q22 BUS uses negative logic. A "low" measured on the slots means '1'.) The parity bit is computed as "not (DAL15 xor DAL14 xor ... xor DAL0)" Those questions are not answered from the specification. Any expert here? > Thanks > > vax, 9000 > From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Dec 12 23:09:03 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 00:09:03 -0500 Subject: Needed: Tape drive for reading DC300 and DC600 tapes (SCSI?) In-Reply-To: <200612122102.49426.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200612122102.49426.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200612130009.03265.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 12 December 2006 21:02, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I've got a stack of DC300 and DC600 tapes which I'd like to get > images, for archiving. I'd like to find a SCSI drive which can read > the tapes, so I can archive them, and hopefully make images of some of > them available (they're install media for the Intel iPSC/860, and > ETA-10 supercomputers). Well, I guess I get to say "never mind". It appears that the Archive 2150S I've got actually does read DC600 and DC300 tapes. :) I'm suprised that this thing has a rubber roller that's still in good condition, and that the thing still reads tapes. Now, I'll see what I can do about making some of these tapes available. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 23:14:39 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 00:14:39 -0500 Subject: The power supply of my vax 3900 is making a weak squeaking sound Message-ID: It is on the CPU side. It sounds like there is a high voltage leakage problem. Before I open it for an investigation, could somebody with experience give me directions about what is the usual cause of this problem, which component to check, and how to fix the problem? I have experience with analog circuits. Thank you! vax, 9000 From elf at ucsd.edu Tue Dec 12 23:36:38 2006 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric Flanzbaum) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 21:36:38 -0800 Subject: SDS/XDS Programming Consoles [was: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life] In-Reply-To: <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1D3F@ALA-MAIL03.corp.a d.wrs.com> References: <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1D3F@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061212213042.033bb930@ucsd.edu> > I own XDS (SDS) Sigma 9 Panel and brought it back to life. > It was quite an undertaking, as the panel consists of about > 100 lamps -- and hand wiring all of them took quite a bit of > labor. > It now blinks -- in some sort of random "computing" fashion > -- but is essentially a useless piece of eye-candy when it > comes to being a useful computer (after all, I don't have > anything else except the programming console). But I must > admit, it is a pretty sight watching all those blinkenlights > flicker on and off :-) > I also own an SDS 940 programming console -- but I've chosen > to leave that untouched (a dead soul, if you will). > -Eric > P.S. -- I'd post a video of it in action, but I don't own > a video camera (I'll have to borrow one). I did take a bunch > of snapshots in succession and piece them together -- kind of > a kludge -- but you get an idea of what it looks like after > watching it. Not nearly as nice if it were a smooth video though. > If anyone is interested, and I can get around to it, I'll post > a picture or two, and the "piecemeal" video on a website in > the (maybe near) future. I put up a few snapshots of my XDS Sigma 9 Console in action, and a snapshot of my XDS "dead" SDS 940 Console. I chose not to put up the kludged "snapshot video" of the XDS Sigma 9 Console just because it really doesn't do justice to what it looks like when it comes to life. Anyway, if interested, see: http://www.flickr.com/photos/27979878 at N00/ -Eric From Lee.Courtney at windriver.com Tue Dec 12 20:22:21 2006 From: Lee.Courtney at windriver.com (Courtney, Lee) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:22:21 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life Message-ID: <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1D3F@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com> Yes - both the consoles pictured were modified Selectrics used as consoles for the 910 and 920. Which is interesting as SDS went to a EBCDIC teletype for the Sigma series. Lee Courtney Product Line Manager - Linux for Consumer Devices Wind River 500 Wind River Way Alameda, California 94501 Office: 510-749-2763 Cell: 650-704-3934 Yahoo IM: charlesleecourtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 2:07 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Eric Flanzbaum > Subject: Re: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life > > > In article > <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1C00 at ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com>, > "Courtney, Lee" writes: > > > The Computer History Museum recently acquired a SDS 910, 920, and > > accepted donation of a SDS 930 (940 predecessor) from > History San Jose. > > See pics at > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/lee_courtney/sets/72157594391790915/ and > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/lee_courtney/sets/72157594391722530/. > > Interesting! Is the console typewriter (the red one) a > modified IBM Selectric? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available > for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Dec 13 01:29:23 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 01:29:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: I/O Selectric Typewriter In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036623@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036623@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Dec 2006, Billy Pettit wrote: > Many of the computer systems of the 1960's and and early 70's used the > IBM Selectric typewriter as a console device. A few even used it as a > peripheral (ex. IBM 2741). > > The typewriters were not standard office machines. They had a series of > switches indicating status, key strike, end of line, etc. They also had > solenoids on the control bars, and a timing distributor. > > I've been looking for one of these modified Selectrics for several > months. Does anyone in this group have one they would be willing to sell > or trade? Or knows where one is available? I have one that I posted about several years ago though its not for sale. You might be able to find the post in the list archive. It was modified to work as a printer for a TRS-80 model 1. It has a special interface box that the TRS-80's printer cable connects to. It came with a Selectric typewriter service manual when I got it from the original owner, but that manual doesn't exactly cover the whole unit as it isn't a true typewriter. The keys would not do anything the last time I had it set up. I think when the modifications were made to it the keys were disabled somehow. I plan to fully restore it to working condition one of these days... -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Dec 13 01:32:39 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 01:32:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: I/O Selectric Typewriter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Dec 2006, Richard wrote: > In article <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036623 at wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, > "Billy Pettit" writes: > >> I've been looking for one of these modified Selectrics for several >> months. > > Join the club! > > I've been looking for one for years now. Its hard to even find > *pictures* of these puppies on the net. I've had searches running on > ebay for over a year and they've never burped out a hit. The model I > remember using was turquoise in color and had the silver square IBM > model number plate on it (although I can't remember the model). It took > a type ball element, and had a keyboard similar to a selectric, but the > physical enclosure was all different. Behind the typewriter was a big > portion of the enclosure that presumably had the control electronics. > It did not have an integrated acoustic coupler, was not integrated into > a desk (pictures of "Model 2741" units on the net show the integrated > desk version) and ran at 134.5 baud. I was using it in 1979/1980 and > even then it was old, but it was an inexpensive way to get "letter > quality" output on a terminal. Ok, I guess I'm going to have to get mine out of storage and get it cleaned up at least for a photo shoot... Its up on a high, difficult to get to storage shelf behind a bunch of heavy stuff...and its heavy too ;P -Toth From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed Dec 13 02:38:46 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 09:38:46 +0100 Subject: VR241 and X.Org Message-ID: <1165999126.12049.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> I'm playing around with a VR241 - the colour monitor bit of the VT241 - and trying to make it work as a standard video monitor. It has two pairs of RGB+sync inputs, and an "INT/EXT" (presumably sync) toggle switch. I have been unable to find any specifications for this monitor online. I don't think the Monitor Database one is correct - if it is, I'm doing something wrong. Is it possible to hook this thing up to a PC? Is there anything I need to bear in mind when configuring X? TIA, -Tore From cc at corti-net.de Wed Dec 13 03:43:53 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:43:53 +0100 (CET) Subject: BASF 6114 disk drive In-Reply-To: <457EEEB1.6090407@bitsavers.org> References: <457EEEB1.6090407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Dec 2006, Al Kossow wrote: >> Do you have a picture of it? > I picture would be useful. If it's from Dortmund, I don't seem to have a Yes, it's from Dortmund. I have a flyer dating from 1972 for the WSP 414 drive (which is exactly the same; used to be hooked up to the TR-440), it can be found on our ftp server ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/telefunken/doku/wsp414* We once had a TR-440 in Stuttgart, too. It was in service from around 1973 until 1982 when it was replaced by a VAX11/780. We had a really large installation (but long before my time), and still have many documents. These scans are a small part of it. The drive uses Memorex Mark VI or IBM 2316 compatible media, thus has 11 platters with 20 recording surfaces. It must be an American product, all writings and notes inside the drive are in English, and everything looks very like either a CDC drive or a Memorex drive (may it be a Memorex 670 or the like?). Anyway, the interface to the drive is the good old standard, i.e. one big cable like a fire hose, three phases power connector (although this drive only needs one) etc. > The 9766 is the drive with the pack on top. There is a CDC FSD drive directly > below that. This is much too modern. Christian From borisg at unixg.ubc.ca Wed Dec 13 04:13:39 2006 From: borisg at unixg.ubc.ca (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 02:13:39 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061213015837.03429680@mail.interchange.ubc.ca> Haven't been following this list for some time, but the few times I do look at archived listings I find gems like these. Thanks for the link Chuck as futurlec is the first place that I've found that carries a PCI digital I/O card for only $40! (A lot easier option than my building one in my (almost non-existent) spare time). To put in my $0.02 worth about the machine independant storage idea, I'm partial to using IDE disks as the medium as these are directly readable by PC's via an external IDE firewire to PC interface and could also be used as a disk drive on the old machine. I started the design of a parallel port to IDE interface for the PDP-11 a few years ago but this was shelved when my girlfriend told me that either the PDP-11/23 MINC system in my living room went or she went. Still have the PDP-11 system, but she doesn't know where I've stashed it. Parallel port type interfaces are available on most old machines and if one used a USB flash drive, one would have to do serial to parallel data conversion as part of the interface, so why not go with a parallel data interface the whole way? Flashdrives are smaller, but most of my PC's don't have USB interfaces and I can quickly add an IDE disk drive to my old systems for copying data. Another option is to use a serial port for transfers and this is how I used to load software on my diskless PDP-11 systems. Can't get much simpler than that. >On 6 Dec 2006 at 10:46, Simon Fryer wrote: > > > I was thinking of doing the same sort of thing but using compact flash > > cards and building some electronics as the interface for the QIC tape > > interface. Thinking about it is about as far as I got. From what I > > understand, the electronics and software for interfacing Compact Flash > > is a little easier than USB. > >I've been toying with the idea of using a CF to provide emulation for >floppy drives. More complicated, as the thing has to look like a >floppy. Rather than record separated data, I'm inclined to record >flux transitions on the CF, so a disk would require something on the >order of 128KBytes per track (for a 300 RPM 500KHz drive). i.e., >the drive would be data-encoding independent. Since one can get 4GB >CF cards, this shouldn't be a problem . Managing multiple images >from a single CF card will require some careful thought. Simulating >multiple drives with a single unit is another possibility. > >There are still whole segments of the industrial market where >floppies represent the only available interface for older equipment. > >For the interested, here's a RS232/485-to-CF card development board. >Note that it's pretty simple, using a PIC for most functions. > >http://www.futurlec.com/CompBoard_Technical.shtml > >I've been using the same outfit's USB-to-parallell I/O module and >find that it's easy to use (and plugs into a 32-pin DIP socket). > >Cheers, >Chuck From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Dec 13 02:21:39 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:21:39 +0000 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: References: <1165962049.12049.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061212152136.K41223@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <457FB813.4030008@gjcp.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/13/06, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 14:52 -0700, Richard wrote: >> > > Has anyone taken 'classic' terminal enclosures and put a Mini-ITX PC >> > > inside? I was thinking an appropriately sized LCD display and the >> ITX >> > > mobo and possibly a CD-ROM drive. > >> Put an Ampro little board and floppy drive in it, >> and call it a VT220 CP/M computer :-) > > Or an SBC6120 and make into an all-in-one PDP-8 with a handle ;-) Sort of requires that the VT220 works and has a keyboard, but yeah - it *would* be good. Could you make up a sticker for the front (stencil?) and label it "DECMate IV"? Gordon From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Dec 13 09:38:31 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:38:31 -0500 Subject: vt52 7x7 font? Message-ID: <200612131538.kBDFcW2T009770@mwave.heeltoe.com> Any chance anyone has the VT52 7x7 font in some digital form? (the actual prom would be nice but I doubt anyone has pulled the chip) -brad From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 13 10:00:14 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:00:14 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:22 AM -0700 12/12/06, Richard wrote: >In article , > "Zane H. Healy" writes: > >> Have you seen the prices of just a single seat of that kind of >> software? > >Yes, but I hadn't thought about licensing, that's a good point. > >I wonder if these companies even keep around a piece of their history >or if its lost forever? It depends on a lot of factors. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 13 10:07:14 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:07:14 -0800 Subject: BASF 6114 disk drive Message-ID: <45802532.7070706@bitsavers.org> > I have a flyer dating from 1972 for the WSP 414 > drive (which is exactly the same; used to be hooked up to the TR-440) It is a Century Data 114 drive. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/centuryData/TM114-1072-J-1M_Model_114_Tech_Oct73.pdf From rickb at bensene.com Wed Dec 13 10:30:59 2006 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:30:59 -0800 Subject: I/O Selectric Typewriter Message-ID: Billy Pettit wrote: >Many of the computer systems of the 1960's and and early 70's used the IBM >Selectric typewriter as a console device. A few even used it as a >peripheral ... Another source, although not exactly the same as a Selectric I/O, is the Wang Model 611/711 Input/Output writer. This was a rather standard IBM Selectric 72 modified by Wang with solenoids and various switches, which interfaced with a Wang 600 or 700-Series calculator, and provided full input/output capabilities. Like Selectric I/O's, these devices aren't common, but they add to the search base. The solenoids controlled the tilt/rotate action of the typeball, key activation, index, carriage return, tab set, tab clear, tab, and backspace. The interface used Wang-proprietary character codes, but was a very simple parallel interface. Datasheet at http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/a-wang711.html Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 13 10:44:15 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:44:15 -0500 Subject: Needed: Tape drive for reading DC300 and DC600 tapes (SCSI?) In-Reply-To: <200612130009.03265.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200612122102.49426.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200612130009.03265.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <7E232A9E-CA54-4496-B5CD-EA30B65C7255@neurotica.com> On Dec 13, 2006, at 12:09 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> I've got a stack of DC300 and DC600 tapes which I'd like to get >> images, for archiving. I'd like to find a SCSI drive which can read >> the tapes, so I can archive them, and hopefully make images of >> some of >> them available (they're install media for the Intel iPSC/860, and >> ETA-10 supercomputers). > > Well, I guess I get to say "never mind". It appears that the Archive > 2150S I've got actually does read DC600 and DC300 tapes. :) It can read, but not write, the lower-density formats if memory serves. > I'm suprised that this thing has a rubber roller that's still in good > condition, and that the thing still reads tapes. The 2150S isn't *that* old. I'd not expect rubber goo in one of those for another few years yet. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 13 10:47:52 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:47:52 -0500 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2006, at 5:40 PM, Richard wrote: >> What's the point in just stripping out fixable hardware to stuff >> in the >> very kind of generic PC crap us cctalk escapists so loathe? >> Where's the >> challenge? Where's the fun? > > Speak for yourself there, buddy. I have lots of fun with x86 stuff. Yes. But we like you anyway. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 11:40:19 2006 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:40:19 -0500 Subject: Needed: Tape drive for reading DC300 and DC600 tapes (SCSI?) In-Reply-To: <200612130009.03265.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200612122102.49426.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200612130009.03265.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4affc5e0612130940j3c0f7acch744a6f01f996f8cd@mail.gmail.com> On 12/13/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Well, I guess I get to say "never mind". It appears that the Archive > 2150S I've got actually does read DC600 and DC300 tapes. :) If it does turn out you need a drive, I think I have 2 old DC600 SCSI drives kicking around somewhere, but in currently unknown state. If need be I could test them and give them to you for cost of shipping - contact me off-list if you do need one. Joe. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 11:39:06 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:39:06 -0700 Subject: ebay seller computermkt Message-ID: Has anyone purchased from this guy? He has a lot of weird stuff, but the pricing seems like he took the high number form suggested range in "Collectible Microcomputers" and multiplied it by 10 or 20. You'll also note that every item is marked "rare" even things like Atari 800! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cc at corti-net.de Wed Dec 13 11:43:11 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:43:11 +0100 (CET) Subject: BASF 6114 disk drive In-Reply-To: <45802532.7070706@bitsavers.org> References: <45802532.7070706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Dec 2006, Al Kossow wrote: > It is a Century Data 114 drive. Thank you! Christian From evan at snarc.net Wed Dec 13 11:53:28 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:53:28 -0500 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002f01c71edf$98c31310$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> That's been discussed here before. He also buys at high prices, so that when you question his sales he can say "well look at the recent sales of this item". -----Original Message----- From: Richard [mailto:legalize at xmission.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 12:39 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: ebay seller computermkt Has anyone purchased from this guy? He has a lot of weird stuff, but the pricing seems like he took the high number form suggested range in "Collectible Microcomputers" and multiplied it by 10 or 20. You'll also note that every item is marked "rare" even things like Atari 800! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Dec 13 12:16:02 2006 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:16:02 -0500 Subject: The power supply of my vax 3900 is making a weak squeaking sound Message-ID: > It is on the CPU side. It sounds like there is a high voltage leakage > problem. You turn it on, and it goes "squeak squeak squeak squeak"? Maybe the LED on the supply is faintly blinking at the same rate? This is the symptom if there isn't the required minimum power load in the Q-bus backplane. The power supply begins to start up, doesn't see enough load, and shuts down, and this repeats every second or so. For minimally configured systems there was a Q-bus card with a bunch of resistors to suck up some current. I think in the box, that one of the two power supplies does the odd-numbered slots, and the other does the even numbered slots. Loads must be distributed to cover both supplies and both supplies need their minimum load met. Sometimes even if you have the required minimum load the power supply will not start up with this symptom. Adding more load seems to help! Tim. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 12:31:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:31:57 -0700 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:53:28 -0500. <002f01c71edf$98c31310$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: In article <002f01c71edf$98c31310$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, "Evan Koblentz" writes: > That's been discussed here before. I remember we talked about "IT EQUIPMENT EXPRESS", but I forgot (or wasn't here at the time) the conversation about this guy. > He also buys at high prices, so that > when you question his sales he can say "well look at the recent sales of > this item". heh heh... that's a tactic that only works for so long unless you've got really deep pockets! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 12:33:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:33:40 -0700 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:21:39 +0000. <457FB813.4030008@gjcp.net> Message-ID: In article <457FB813.4030008 at gjcp.net>, Gordon JC Pearce writes: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 12/13/06, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> > On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 14:52 -0700, Richard wrote: > >> > > Has anyone taken 'classic' terminal enclosures and put a Mini-ITX PC > >> > > inside? I was thinking an appropriately sized LCD display and the > >> ITX > >> > > mobo and possibly a CD-ROM drive. > > > >> Put an Ampro little board and floppy drive in it, > >> and call it a VT220 CP/M computer :-) > > > > Or an SBC6120 and make into an all-in-one PDP-8 with a handle ;-) > > Sort of requires that the VT220 works and has a keyboard, but yeah - it > *would* be good. > > Could you make up a sticker for the front (stencil?) and label it > "DECMate IV"? Yeah, I like that idea. If you're going that route, you might as well go whole hog and create a board that goes straight into the VT backplane. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 12:34:10 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:34:10 -0700 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:21:39 +0000. <457FB813.4030008@gjcp.net> Message-ID: Oops, I guess the 220 doesn't have a backplane, but the 10x's do... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 13 12:43:26 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:43:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 13, 2006 11:34:10 AM Message-ID: <200612131843.kBDIhRqH010595@onyx.spiritone.com> > Oops, I guess the 220 doesn't have a backplane, but the 10x's do... I thought that was just the VT103 that has a (16-bit?) Q-Bus backplane. Zane From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Dec 13 13:50:51 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:50:51 -0800 Subject: TI Silent 700 models In-Reply-To: <20061212233655.GA10669@motherbrain.retronet.net> References: <20061212233655.GA10669@motherbrain.retronet.net> Message-ID: <20061213195051.GA27649@motherbrain.retronet.net> On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 03:36:55PM -0800, Seth J. Morabito wrote: > [...] > Did any model Silent 700 ever do "true" lower-case, with descenders and > ascenders, as opposed to small-caps only? Aha! Following up on my own message... I've seen some mention that the TI Silent 700 Model 785 did true upper and lower case. Now that I've established that, does anyone have a model 785 that they can confirm this with? Better yet, anyone have one they'd be willing to sell? ;) -Seth From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 13:43:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:43:44 -0700 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:43:26 -0800. <200612131843.kBDIhRqH010595@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: In article <200612131843.kBDIhRqH010595 at onyx.spiritone.com>, "Zane H. Healy" writes: > > Oops, I guess the 220 doesn't have a backplane, but the 10x's do... > > I thought that was just the VT103 that has a (16-bit?) Q-Bus backplane. The other VT10x's have a backplane, but it probably doesn't have a full Q-bus on it. The backplane does give you access to the keyboard and the video signal, IIRC. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 13 15:08:32 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:08:32 -0600 Subject: ebay seller computermkt References: Message-ID: <002f01c71efa$d96216d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> I agree his prices are sky high. However, if he ever happened to have that one rare piece I need to finish off a system.... More the point, as this stuff gets more and more rare, someday we'll be glad he's around as he'll still have it all ;) Jay From drb at msu.edu Wed Dec 13 15:19:16 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:19:16 -0500 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:39:06 MST.) References: Message-ID: <200612132119.kBDLJGnj017087@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Has anyone purchased from this guy? I have. He does list sky-high prices, etc. He clearly had no idea what he was selling in the old Prime gear I bought from him, had it mislabelled badly, and didn't take me up on my offer to help id it. That may vary depending on the gear in question. But he was pretty easy to deal with, and while his packaging wasn't great, it wasn't horrible. Watch for a while; he seems to occasionally list things at substantially reduced prices. After he's had it for a while and has tried a lower price with no luck he may take a more sane offer. De From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 15:39:54 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:39:54 +1300 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: <457FB813.4030008@gjcp.net> References: <1165962049.12049.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061212152136.K41223@shell.lmi.net> <457FB813.4030008@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 12/13/06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Or an SBC6120 and make into an all-in-one PDP-8 with a handle ;-) > > Sort of requires that the VT220 works and has a keyboard, but yeah - it > *would* be good. True, that. It wouldn't do much if the VT220 wasn't running. > Could you make up a sticker for the front (stencil?) and label it > "DECMate IV"? Heh... that would be a nice touch. Another nice touch would be to find a way to mount an CF-IDE adapter accessible to the outside so that you could have removable boot media. You'd have to start hacking the case at that point, I'd expect. If you did the same sort of thing with a VT100, you could just fabricate a new cover plate and mount the CF-IDE to that - plenty of room in there. The innards of a VT220 are substantially more crowded. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 13 15:51:49 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:51:49 -0600 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested Message-ID: <00a901c71f00$e6fba120$6500a8c0@BILLING> Listowners perogative to ask a question that is only halfway on topic.... ;) I figure some people here may have some good suggestions - offlist please. There is a SpamAssassin machine(s) filtering spam being sent to the list that sits in front of the classiccmp server (we're also making use of Pyzor, Razor, milter-ahead, and clamav). It's been doing a wonderful job, such that most spam is kept out of the moderators faces. However, over the past few months I've noticed that more and more is getting through (not to the list, but to the moderators eyes who have to kill it all manually). Same goes for many of my customers. What concerns me is that 99% of the new spam making it through is vaguely sensible english phrases (apparently automatically pulled from online books, or from usenet post archives, etc.). If there was also an advertisement text, Spamassassin could catch that. However, the text is all just english phrases (I've noted them to be targeted phrases, like having to do with computers, sometimes old ones) BUT... the advertisement is a graphic attachment. Since SpamAssassin can't do OCR on the small gif or jpg attachment that says "buy viagra here"... I am not sure what to do about this. It comes from all over, not just a few servers, etc. Before you say "just kill all emails with graphic attachments"... keep in mind that these spamassassin machines do their job for thousands of domains that I host, not just classiccmp.org. So just killing all emails with graphic attachments is simply not an option. If anyone can give me a few ideas that will work well for ISP/hosting-class environments, I'd love to hear it. Off-list please! Thanks in advance for any advice. Best regards, Jay West From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 15:55:01 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:55:01 -0700 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:08:32 -0600. <002f01c71efa$d96216d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <002f01c71efa$d96216d0$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > I agree his prices are sky high. However, if he ever happened to have that > one rare piece I need to finish off a system.... He doesn't seem to have much of anything in the minicomputer realm. Almost everything seems to be microcomputers. Although he does have some weird stuff I haven't heard of before I read "Collectible Microcomputers". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 13 15:59:05 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:59:05 +0000 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <4655.86.144.143.49.1165540226.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: On 8/12/06 01:10, "Lee Davison" wrote: >> The downside, of course, is that as the hobbyist-end-user, you are >> somewhat out in the cold if you don't own a GAL programmer. They can >> easily run to hundreds of dollars for basic ones, and, unlike an old >> 4K EPROM, they are not trivial to make programmers for from scratch. > > There are no excuses .. http://www.geocities.com/mwinterhoff/galblast.htm Suddenly, I might be able to fix my Commodore 65! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 16:01:52 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:01:52 +1300 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: <457EDD44.1080801@philpem.me.uk> References: <457E6801.327.117555D9@cclist.sydex.com> <457EDD44.1080801@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 12/13/06, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I've still got a copy of the first Orcad SDT--ran on a PC-XT (I think > > it coiuld run on floppies) using CGA or Hercules. > > From what I can gather, you needed two floppy drives - one for the OrCAD > program disc, and another for your 'work' disc. I'm not sure I have the oldest version, but I do have a DOS-only version of OrCAD schematic capture (not the layout tool) that we used to use in the late 1980s. At the time, it was on a genuine PC-AT with a 40MB hard disk, so I'm not sure about floppy requirements. We used it with PADS-PCB for layout. I have lots of experience with schematic capture and OrCAD, but almost no experience with PADS-PCB and layout. I tried to do some simple stuff a while back, but got stymied trying to export the schematic with enough content for PADS to be happy importing it. For modern stuff, though, I've switched to EagleCAD and have been quite happy with that. I always like the DOS OrCAD interface. -ethan From feedle at feedle.net Wed Dec 13 16:03:30 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:03:30 -0700 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <00a901c71f00$e6fba120$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <00a901c71f00$e6fba120$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <458078B2.8000709@feedle.net> Jay West wrote: > > Before you say "just kill all emails with graphic attachments"... keep > in mind that these spamassassin machines do their job for thousands of > domains that I host, not just classiccmp.org. So just killing all > emails with graphic attachments is simply not an option. If anyone can > give me a few ideas that will work well for ISP/hosting-class > environments, I'd love to hear it. Off-list please! Thanks in advance > for any advice. Jay: It is my casual observation that the classiccmp.org lists are hosted at Dreamhost. I don't know exactly what the relationship between you and Dreamhost is (that is, whether you are simply a customer like I am or have friends that work there.. or work there yourself), but it might be possible for you to talk to somebody there and get some special rules inserted for just the classiccmp lists. It is my understanding that some ability to write custom procmail rules before it hits the mailman server is possible. Whether or not Dreamhost can/will do it is probably the subject of some debate.. generally, I've found them to be quite cooperative in setting up "weird stuff" if it makes sense and is not too overly hard. I've been having the same problem on my personal listserv. I just trash any mail containing graphics. As you pointed out, however, that would have interesting results on a public mail host. -fedl From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 13 16:16:10 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:16:10 -0600 Subject: ebay seller computermkt References: Message-ID: <00cd01c71f04$4efafbb0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote.... > He doesn't seem to have much of anything in the minicomputer realm. > Almost everything seems to be microcomputers. Although he does have > some weird stuff I haven't heard of before I read "Collectible > Microcomputers". And I'm minicomputer only? I daresay my heathkit (808x & Z80) collection FAR outweighs my mini collection - at least in volume. Add to that my love for Apple ]['s, I've got a bunch of MC68000 systems, and a few 80286 non-pc's... I wasn't looking at him for minicomputer stuff ;) Matter of fact, most (but not all) folks I'm aware of that collect big-iron also collect some smaller (micro) systems. And last I checked, many of us have DEC micros like the 11/23 :D Jay From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Wed Dec 13 16:18:29 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:18:29 -0700 Subject: FA: HP HP-2117F on ebay Message-ID: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org> I don't know anything about HP minis, so I don't know what to look for, but for those on the list that have HPs and might be interested... The main unit: item # 320060663740 The FP unit: item # 320060663048 No bids yet. J From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 16:28:05 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:28:05 -0500 Subject: The power supply of my vax 3900 is making a weak squeaking sound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/13/06, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > It is on the CPU side. It sounds like there is a high voltage leakage > > problem. > > You turn it on, and it goes "squeak squeak squeak squeak"? Maybe > the LED on the supply is faintly blinking at the same rate? Thank you, but it is different. It makes a continuous sound that is more like a static discharge. The computer still works, so it might not the power load problem. Furthermore, After about 6 hours of use, the sound of the power supply seemed gone. This is the symptom if there isn't the required minimum power load > in the Q-bus backplane. The power supply begins to start up, doesn't > see enough load, and shuts down, and this repeats every second > or so. > > For minimally configured systems there was a Q-bus card with > a bunch of resistors to suck up some current. > > I think in the box, that one of the two power supplies does the > odd-numbered slots, and the other does the even numbered slots. > Loads must be distributed to cover both supplies and both supplies > need their minimum load met. I did not know this. I thought they worked for each half of the QBUS. I have a M9060 that I put in the very last slot to make the left side power supply happy. Maybe it happens to be an even numbered slot. vax, 9000 Sometimes even if you have the required minimum load the power > supply will not start up with this symptom. Adding more load > seems to help! > Tim. > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 13 16:36:36 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:36:36 -0600 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested References: <00a901c71f00$e6fba120$6500a8c0@BILLING> <458078B2.8000709@feedle.net> Message-ID: <00f001c71f07$26793be0$6500a8c0@BILLING> You wrote.... > It is my casual observation that the classiccmp.org lists are hosted at > Dreamhost. Uh, no. I own an ISP/Webhosting/Colocation firm. We have our own datacenter with rows & rows of racks full of customer servers as well as our own servers for our hosting/access service. We do not host our servers with another company. I have no clue why you get the idea that some company called dreamhost is hosting the classiccmp list. However, you can bet that I am going to investigate how/why it appears that way ;) The classiccmp list is hosted by me gratis on a server that I put in my own datacenter. I figure if I have the datacenter, it costs me nothing to take a server and allocate it to the classiccmp cause for free. The membership of the list at large occasionally pony's up donations to cover hardware upgrades, etc. All my time maintaining the server is gratis. In addition to hosting the list at no charge, I also have a standing offer that I will host any non-commercial classic computer related website totally free of charge. I also host the primary bitsavers.org website as well as scads of other classic computer sites. I do not own or control those other sites, I just provide the hosting for them on my servers (and administer the server itself). > I don't know exactly what the relationship between you and Dreamhost is > (that is, whether you are simply a customer like I am or have friends that > work there.. or work there yourself), There is no relationship, I've never heard of them, at least in relation to me. The classiccmp list is certainly not hosted on any servers and/or service that they provide. > but it might be possible for you to talk to somebody there and get some > special rules inserted for just the classiccmp lists. Uh, I can into the datacenter and connect a console to the classiccmp server, log in as root, and hack up mailman any way I want :) No need to call anyone ;) > It is my understanding that some ability to write custom procmail rules > before it hits the mailman server is possible. Yes, it is possible. But due to the way these particular emails are crafted, no amount of custom/special rules will help. See my description of how they are doing it. > I've been having the same problem on my personal listserv. I just trash > any mail containing graphics. As you pointed out, however, that would > have interesting results on a public mail host. I have thousands of domains I host, and I'm sure those clients would get a bit miffed if I said "no more graphic attachments". I think I'd lose many customers in a day ;) Actually... most of them would bolt because they INSIST on all their emails having graphic business cards/signatures at the bottom. *sigh*. Maybe spamassassin will find a way to progress in the tit-for-tat war with spammers. Jay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 13 16:38:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:38:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The power supply of my vax 3900 is making a weak squeaking sound In-Reply-To: from "9000 VAX" at Dec 13, 6 00:14:39 am Message-ID: > > It is on the CPU side. It sounds like there is a high voltage leakage > problem. Before I open it for an investigation, could somebody with > experience give me directions about what is the usual cause of this problem, > which component to check, and how to fix the problem? I have experience with > analog circuits. Thank you! A squeaking SMPSU normally means it's detecting an error (overcurrent, which may, in turn be due to overvoltage tripping a crowbar circuit which then shorts out the suppyl), shutting down (the oscillation frequency may then go trhough the audible rangs), then starting up and trying again, etc. If the problem is certainly inside the supply (i.e. it contines doing it on summy load), I'd suspect either a failure of the regulation feedback loop (thus casuing the overvoltage problem), or a shorted capacitor or rectifier diode on the scondary side of the supply. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 13 16:34:03 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:34:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Q22 BUS parity check? In-Reply-To: from "9000 VAX" at Dec 12, 6 09:08:20 pm Message-ID: > > Hello, > I read the Q22 specification (search "Q22 specification" on this page: > http://www.chd.dyndns.org/qbus_ide/ ) but the parity check function is still > not clear to me. My questions are, > 1. Is there parity check when interrupt vector is read ? > 2. Is there parity check if IO page is read? > 3. What is the polarity of the parity bit? > > Those questions are not answered from the specification. Any expert here? Assuming it's like Unibus (and I am pretty sure it is), I think your confusion coimes from not realising what device actually does the partity check. What it really is is that a memory board can signal an error on read, which was often down by a parity check. It _could_ be done by, say, having ECC memory and having the error signals if there were too many bit errors to correct. It's tbe memory board (or memory controller) that checks parity, nnt any part of the CPU hardware. So to answer your questions: 1) There could be, it depends on the memory board where the vector is stored. 2) Not normally, I don't think any standard I/O devices checked parity on reads 3) Depends on the memory board, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 13 16:41:27 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:41:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VR241 and X.Org In-Reply-To: <1165999126.12049.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> from "Tore Sinding Bekkedal" at Dec 13, 6 09:38:46 am Message-ID: > > I'm playing around with a VR241 - the colour monitor bit of the VT241 - > and trying to make it work as a standard video monitor. It has two pairs It _is_ a standard video monitor (it's actually a Hitachi chassis inside...) > of RGB+sync inputs, and an "INT/EXT" (presumably sync) toggle switch. Yes, that switch selects between separate composite sync on the fourth BNC socket and sync-on-green. > > I have been unable to find any specifications for this monitor online. I > don't think the Monitor Database one is correct - if it is, I'm doing > something wrong. It's a normal TV rate (that is, 15.7kHz horizontal, 60Hz vertical) RGB analogue monitor. > > Is it possible to hook this thing up to a PC? Is there anything I need > to bear in mind when configuring X? It will not sunc to nromal VGA frequencies. Period. I cna't think of a PC video adapter that will easily drive it, either. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 13 16:21:32 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:21:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 12, 6 03:40:43 pm Message-ID: > > What's the point in just stripping out fixable hardware to stuff in the > > very kind of generic PC crap us cctalk escapists so loathe? Where's the > > challenge? Where's the fun? > > Speak for yourself there, buddy. I have lots of fun with x86 stuff. Yes, so do I, but with properly docuemtned, repairable 80x86 stuff. Not with boards that contain a few BGA-packaged chips that I can't probe the connections to (even if I had a fast enough logic analyser), that I can't desolder and resolder, and that I couldn't get as spare parts anyway. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 13 17:05:29 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:05:29 +0000 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <00f001c71f07$26793be0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On 13/12/06 22:36, "Jay West" wrote: > The classiccmp list is hosted by me gratis on a server that I put in my own > datacenter. I figure if I have the datacenter, it costs me nothing to take a > server and allocate it to the classiccmp cause for free. The membership of Thanks for the server, Jay :) If I had a datacentre I'd do the same thing; in fact if you could tell me that classiccmp is hosted on an HP DL360 (or something similar) I could probably pony up some spares..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Dec 13 18:06:22 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:06:22 -0300 Subject: [Offtopic]:Brazilians? References: Message-ID: <010001c71f13$ceb3fb90$f0fea8c0@alpha> Just out of curiosity: Anyone from Brazil here? Or I'm the only one? Greetz, Alexandre Souza From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Dec 13 18:08:41 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:08:41 -0300 Subject: VR241 and X.Org References: Message-ID: <010101c71f14$0820e910$f0fea8c0@alpha> > It will not sunc to nromal VGA frequencies. Period. I cna't think of a PC > video adapter that will easily drive it, either. You can use ArcadeOS in DOS or PowerStrip in windows to create a mode with 15KHz horizontal sync. I use it here at my home. Almost all PC VGA adapters works. Of course, you'll not have full VGA resolution since the dot pitch of the tube (and the resolution of the circuit itself) will be way lower. I'd not go above 320 x 400. Good luck! From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Dec 13 17:13:37 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:13:37 -0500 Subject: Q22 BUS parity check? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45808921.4080400@nktelco.net> 9000 VAX wrote: > I read the Q22 specification (search "Q22 specification" on this page: > http://www.chd.dyndns.org/qbus_ide/ ) but the parity check function is > still > not clear to me. Definitely not an expert (and since none have volunteered), I think that the parity check of the Qbus is an indication of a parity error rather than part of a parity check function. The DEC Bus Handbook with a section on the LSI-11 bus says that BDAL17 is parity check enable and BDAL16 is parity check error. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/handbooks/PDP11_BusHandbook1979.pdf It says that on DATI cycles the bits are controlled by the peripheral. I make the assumption that asserting both during the data transfer phase will indicate a parity error that was detected in the peripheral and asserting only BDAL17 would indicate there was no error (but that parity was checked). It further says that during DATO cycles asserting BDAL16 will write a parity error to memory and BDAL17 is not used on writes. I presume this would be for testing of some kind. -chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 13 17:18:57 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:18:57 -0600 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING> J Blaser wrote.... >I don't know anything about HP minis, so I don't know what to look for, but >for those on the list that have HPs and might be interested... > > The main unit: item # 320060663740 > The FP unit: item # 320060663048 > > No bids yet. And hopefully there won't be... unless you want parts - cause it's got issues. I noticed this system on ebay a night or two ago. I was going to post a warning here to people about it, but just didn't get a roundtuit. 1) The power supply for the cpu has been pulled (ie. is not present). That doesn't bode well ;) 2) The DCPC card (that's DMA to you and me) appears to be missing and the cable is dangling. This was standard on the 2117 (1000F aka 21MX/F) I think. 3) There is NO memory, nor a memory controller in the box, they appear to have been snagged. 4) Either the FEM board has been pulled, or they just used the wrong cable to connect the FAB to the cpu board. Given that slot 10 is empty and thus creates a break in the interrupt chain, I'm guessing the former. That means you're likely missing microcode. Could just be vendor microcode... or your base instruction set ;) 5) There appears to be something homebrew on the TBG board in slot 11. At least it's nothing I've ever seen. Given the RPL markings on the front this tends to make me think of process control. Maybe the cable was to allow some other device to generate the time based interrupts. 6) Third party board in slot 12. Who knows. 7) 13037 disk interface in slot 13, that matches the front panel markings as likely boot device. 8) Note the 8 channel mux card is not compatible with TSB. Note also the non-standard edge card connection. PSI board? 9) 7970 tape controller set, handy to have. 10) Two microcircuit boards. I happen to REALLY like these. If anyone buys this sytem, I'd be willing to pay for one or two of these cards :) 11) Missing board in slot 22... there goes your interrupts. Who knows, maybe this system ran something that was only polled. 12) Don't recognize the board in slot 23. On the plus side, it IS an F series... the FP unit is auctioned separately and they are calling it a power supply. Nope, it's a floating point unit. There IS no power supply - and there sure is supposed to be ;) I am not familiar enough with the F series to know if that FP unit includes all the necessary boards and/or connectors. Random thoughts.... Jay From fryers at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 17:20:15 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:20:15 +0000 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: <1165944946.6046.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200612100517.AAA24722@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1165944946.6046.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Hey All, Just catching up on some back email. Just had a quick look see at my CD collection as I remember a friend copying a couple of Ultrix CDs for me. I have; * Ultrix 4.5 MIPS Docs 1 and 2 of 2 * Ultrix 4.5 / RISC Software Product Library, Disk 1 * Ultrix 4.5 / RISC Software Product Library, Disk 2. If these are of interest, I'll copy the contents and put them somewhere webish. I thought I had Ultrix there as well as I was going to run it on my DECstation 5000/240. Never mind, I suppose I will have to settle with VMS! Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 17:23:48 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:23:48 -0700 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:16:10 -0600. <00cd01c71f04$4efafbb0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <00cd01c71f04$4efafbb0$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > Richard wrote.... > > He doesn't seem to have much of anything in the minicomputer realm. > > Almost everything seems to be microcomputers. Although he does have > > some weird stuff I haven't heard of before I read "Collectible > > Microcomputers". > > And I'm minicomputer only? For some reason I thought your primary fetish was HP2000/PDP-11 :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 13 17:29:16 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:29:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: from "Simon Fryer" at Dec 13, 2006 11:20:15 PM Message-ID: <200612132329.kBDNTH25025724@onyx.spiritone.com> > Just had a quick look see at my CD collection as I remember a friend > copying a couple of Ultrix CDs for me. I have; > * Ultrix 4.5 MIPS Docs 1 and 2 of 2 > * Ultrix 4.5 / RISC Software Product Library, Disk 1 > * Ultrix 4.5 / RISC Software Product Library, Disk 2. > > If these are of interest, I'll copy the contents and put them somewhere webish. > > I thought I had Ultrix there as well as I was going to run it on my > DECstation 5000/240. Never mind, I suppose I will have to settle with > VMS! FYI, VMS won't run on a MIPS box, however, NetBSD will. Zane From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 13 17:33:04 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:33:04 -0600 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested References: Message-ID: <015801c71f0f$0bad0f50$6500a8c0@BILLING> You wrote.... > Thanks for the server, Jay :) If I had a datacentre I'd do the same thing; > in fact if you could tell me that classiccmp is hosted on an HP DL360 (or > something similar) I could probably pony up some spares..... Custom built 1U rackmount server actually (classiccmp, not the spamassassin server). I am not ready to tackle this within the next 30 or 60 days, but before too long it is going to be time to upgrade the disc drives on the classiccmp server. First, the hardware raid controller has reported a few bumps here and there writing to both drives. When that starts happening more and more frequently it's generally time to replace them before you are running on just one drive. But that's not the main reason. The main reason is that the drives will be full in the near future. Bitsavers has grown a lot, but that certainly isn't the only one (and I don't mean to say it's the biggest 'offender' either). I've put more and more classic computer related sites on it for people and all of them have grown over time. In addition, the web developer is back at work on the classiccmp development website, so in the future the classiccmp website itself will need more storage. Right now the classiccmp server has two 160gb PATA drives, mirrored with a 3ware/Escalade raid-1 card. Since I really despise doing a major reload from scratch frequently on the classiccmp server, I'd just as soon get as large of drives as possible without it being stupidly expensive. I was thinking of getting two PATA drives that are perhaps around the 400gb area. That would give all the classiccmp sites (and bitsavers) plenty of room to grow as we'd be going from 160gb usable to 400gb usable. I have to stick with PATA, or we'd need a different raid controller that fits the small single PCI slot, or a different mainboard, and then a cascade of upgrades become necessary... so ... PATA :) At the same time the drives are replaced I will see about replacing fans & such too... have to watch out for 1U cases... Jay From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 13 17:32:39 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:32:39 -0600 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45808D97.3070906@yahoo.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: >> There are no excuses .. http://www.geocities.com/mwinterhoff/galblast.htm > > Suddenly, I might be able to fix my Commodore 65! I thought that was up the spout because you didn't *have* the necessary firmware / programmed logic for it, not because you didn't have the necessary kit to program it... From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Dec 13 17:45:28 2006 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:45:28 +0000 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <00a901c71f00$e6fba120$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <00a901c71f00$e6fba120$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45809098.9060401@philpem.me.uk> Jay West wrote: > What concerns me is that 99% of the new spam making it through is > vaguely sensible english phrases (apparently automatically pulled from > online books, or from usenet post archives, etc.). If there was also an > advertisement text, Spamassassin could catch that. However, the text is > all just english phrases (I've noted them to be targeted phrases, like > having to do with computers, sometimes old ones) BUT... the > advertisement is a graphic attachment. Since SpamAssassin can't do OCR > on the small gif or jpg attachment that says "buy viagra here"... I am > not sure what to do about this. It comes from all over, not just a few > servers, etc. I've been trying to deal with that crap for months. It's sent out by the Warezov and Sdbot viruses, which explains why it's coming from all over the place. I wrote a spam filter to deal with it - HAMster - but every few days the spam signatures change and I have to play catchup. So far the only constant I've found is that the messages all have subject lines of the form: Subject: something Subject: something Subject: something Subject: something Like I said - as soon as I add a new "ScoreRegexpSubjectField X Y" (add X to the score if regexp Y matches, replacing fields like $FIRSTNAME$ in the regexp with values from the headers) rule, the spam changes. My inbox is being stuffed full by this crap, and nothing seems to be able to stop it. I've counted nearly 1400MB of it in the past month, over six email accounts! So far the only way I've found to deal with it is to spend a few hours analysing each message, then find something unique about it that will allow me to create a filter to block it. Then the spam changes again and it's "go directly to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect ?200" once more... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 13 18:01:54 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 00:01:54 +0000 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 13/12/06 23:20, "Simon Fryer" wrote: > Hey All, > > Just catching up on some back email. > > Just had a quick look see at my CD collection as I remember a friend > copying a couple of Ultrix CDs for me. I have; > * Ultrix 4.5 MIPS Docs 1 and 2 of 2 > * Ultrix 4.5 / RISC Software Product Library, Disk 1 > * Ultrix 4.5 / RISC Software Product Library, Disk 2. That'll be some Ultrix CD's then.... > I thought I had Ultrix there as well as I was going to run it on my > DECstation 5000/240. Never mind, I suppose I will have to settle with > VMS! See above :) Obviously you can't run VMS on non VAX/Alpha hardware..... But you know that! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 13 18:03:53 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 00:03:53 +0000 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <45808D97.3070906@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 13/12/06 23:32, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > Adrian Graham wrote: >>> There are no excuses .. http://www.geocities.com/mwinterhoff/galblast.htm >> >> Suddenly, I might be able to fix my Commodore 65! > > I thought that was up the spout because you didn't *have* the necessary > firmware / programmed logic for it, not because you didn't have the necessary > kit to program it... Nope, Riccardo Rubini has all the necessary gubbins, I just didn't have a GAL programmer to roll my own. This is of course assuming it's because of that chip....... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Dec 13 18:06:46 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:06:46 -0500 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200612131906.46847.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 13 December 2006 19:01, Adrian Graham wrote: > See above :) Obviously you can't run VMS on non VAX/Alpha > hardware..... You mean VAX/Alpha/Itanium2 ;) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 18:09:32 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:09:32 -0500 Subject: Q22 BUS parity check? In-Reply-To: <45808921.4080400@nktelco.net> References: <45808921.4080400@nktelco.net> Message-ID: Tony and Chunk, Thank you, This kind of parity check is new to me because my mind was fixed to the "xor" type of parity check. What I did was that I inserted DAL17, and inserted DAL16 with "not (DAL15 xor DAL14 xor... xor DAL0)" when my controller was doing busmaster writes to the main memory. Nobody complained. When the CPU reads the SA/IP register, or requests the interrupt vector, If I insert DAL17, and insert DAL16 with the signal mentioned above, vax3900 reports a machine check. This conforms what you two said. It seems I need to just forget the parity check thing. vax, 9000 From ken at seefried.com Wed Dec 13 18:10:31 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:10:31 -0500 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <200612132330.kBDNUIMR037756@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612132330.kBDNUIMR037756@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061214001031.9443.qmail@seefried.com> From: "Jay West" > > What concerns me is that 99% of the new spam making it through is vaguely > sensible english phrases (apparently automatically pulled from online books, > or from usenet post archives, etc.). > Yup...you're seeing what I suppose can be described as an technological escalation in the spam war. The spammers have evolved, as we will have to wait for the good guys to adapt. I'm more of a dspam guy personally, but it's the same issue with Spamassassin. That, and I've been working through the issues with commercial spam removal vendors serving my Very Large Telco client. Bottom line is that the spammers have found a weak point in the current state-of-the-art spam detection technology and are beating on it for all it's worth. They're not st00pid, alas. Perhaps more insidious is I've noticed an increasing amount of non-sense spam with no discernible (to me) purpose (no links or dead links, no message or hook) other than to poison Bayesian corpus (corpi?). This does not bode well. Ken From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 13 18:12:37 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 00:12:37 +0000 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <015801c71f0f$0bad0f50$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On 13/12/06 23:33, "Jay West" wrote: > You wrote.... >> Thanks for the server, Jay :) If I had a datacentre I'd do the same thing; >> in fact if you could tell me that classiccmp is hosted on an HP DL360 (or >> something similar) I could probably pony up some spares..... > > Custom built 1U rackmount server actually (classiccmp, not the spamassassin > server). > > I am not ready to tackle this within the next 30 or 60 days, but before too > long it is going to be time to upgrade the disc drives on the classiccmp > server. First, the hardware raid controller has reported a few bumps here Time to do some digging. Prompt me off-list please Jay. I don't want to stamp on your toes WRT custom built stuff unless you're happy for me to do so. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 13 18:30:52 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:30:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <45809098.9060401@philpem.me.uk> from Philip Pemberton at "Dec 13, 6 11:45:28 pm" Message-ID: <200612140030.kBE0Uql6023526@floodgap.com> > I wrote a spam filter to deal with it - HAMster - but every few days the spam That's kind of what I've been doing with procmail. Lately I have said screw it and, in addition to DNSBLs, added sendmail rules to drop connections from hosts with no reverse PTR or a forged reverse PTR, as well as greet_pause and some other tricks. I think Bayesian filtering is going to go the way of all other filtration because, as someone else already pointed out, spammers are including extracts of "normal" though unrelated text to defeat such analyses. I think the future will unfortunately be IP and network-based blocklists, and while the cure can be worse than the disease (increased possibility of false positives), the spamming community has proven that while they lack in ethics, they do not lack in innovation. The only cure for that is out-and-out ostracism of the networks that tolerate such behaviour. I have also gotten quite frustrated with various list echoes (not this one) that expose real E-mail addresses to the web. Since they have said they won't fix it, I'll name the worst offender I've dealt with, and that's the NetBSD lists. For that reason I have kept my postings to it to a minimum. Their mail admin basically said, "well, we thought it over briefly but we really don't care," and while I am a regular NetBSD user, that kind of attitude probably explains why the project is second-fiddle to the other BSDs, let alone Linux. Anyway, rant off, sorry. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I don't think so," said Descartes, and he vanished. ----------------------- From fryers at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 18:36:57 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 00:36:57 +0000 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: <200612132329.kBDNTH25025724@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200612132329.kBDNTH25025724@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: Heya, On 13/12/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: [...] > > I thought I had Ultrix there as well as I was going to run it on my > > DECstation 5000/240. Never mind, I suppose I will have to settle with > > VMS! > > FYI, VMS won't run on a MIPS box, however, NetBSD will. Didn't know that. Thank you - I have just learnt another thing today. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed Dec 13 19:18:44 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:18:44 -0500 Subject: The power supply of my vax 3900 is making a weak squeaking sound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061214011844.B749DBA4227@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "9000 VAX" wrote: > > I think in the box, that one of the two power supplies does the > > odd-numbered slots, and the other does the even numbered slots. > > Loads must be distributed to cover both supplies and both supplies > > need their minimum load met. > > > I did not know this. I thought they worked for each half of the QBUS. I have > a M9060 that I put in the very last slot to make the left side power supply > happy. Maybe it happens to be an even numbered slot. The "how to split up power supplies on a single backplane" problem has many solutions! But I'm pretty sure that in your backplane it is odd/even (with maybe some weird exception for the first slot or two). And I recall the drive power connectors being split between the two supplies too (but not in the same way as a BA123...) Tim. From dholland at woh.rr.com Wed Dec 13 19:24:19 2006 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:24:19 -0500 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <20061214001031.9443.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200612132330.kBDNUIMR037756@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20061214001031.9443.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <1166059459.23318.14.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Wed, 2006-12-13 at 19:10 -0500, Ken Seefried wrote: > Perhaps more insidious is I've noticed an increasing amount of non-sense > spam with no discernible (to me) purpose (no links or dead links, no message > or hook) other than to poison Bayesian corpus (corpi?). This does not bode > well. Nope, where I work ended up going w/ a commercial solution. I'll mention what I sent to Jay a few ago. We seem to be reasonably happy w/ a product called IronPort. (www.ironport.com) I'm not privy to the costs of the devices though. David > Ken From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 19:24:54 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:24:54 -0500 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: References: <200612100517.AAA24722@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1165944946.6046.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4580A7E6.1080700@gmail.com> Simon Fryer wrote: > Hey All, > > Just catching up on some back email. > > Just had a quick look see at my CD collection as I remember a friend > copying a couple of Ultrix CDs for me. I have; > * Ultrix 4.5 MIPS Docs 1 and 2 of 2 > * Ultrix 4.5 / RISC Software Product Library, Disk 1 > * Ultrix 4.5 / RISC Software Product Library, Disk 2. I wouldn't mind myself. > If these are of interest, I'll copy the contents and put them somewhere > webish. > > I thought I had Ultrix there as well as I was going to run it on my > DECstation 5000/240. Never mind, I suppose I will have to settle with > VMS! VMS doesn't run on these. Your choices are Ultrix and NetBSD. Peace... Sridhar From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Dec 13 19:47:59 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:47:59 -0500 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:36:36 CST." <00f001c71f07$26793be0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200612140147.kBE1lxfD022081@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: > >Maybe spamassassin will find a way to progress in the tit-for-tat war with >spammers. not sure. I'll tell you what you probably already know. Spam has been morphing lately on a couple of fronts. People who don't run their own SMTP servers have probably only noticed one of these fronts - the move to pictures embedded in mime encoded email. No Bayes classifier can deal with that (that I know of). Another front is the rise of spambots. I've seen a huge increase in "SMTP hangups", where a connection occurs and then is dropped. It's spambots fishing. Also, tons of email sent to non-existent users at valid domains. These cause double bouncing and clog up email servers. I've seen hundreds of them running all over (what appear to be) cable modem nets in the UK. And other places as well (no slight ment to those across the pond - just one of many examples). There must a lot of infected pc's running windows out there. I've taken to rejecting email at the SMTP level by checking the recipient - using a qmail variant called magic-smtpd. It's eliminated the double-bounces caused by email sent from non-existent users to non-existent users. But, the checking requires you to keep a list of valid email recipients. This is probably not practical for many domains but it might work for a list/domain where you know the list of valid recipients up front. Just a thought. The sad thing is that email is quickly becoming less effective than fax and the phone. A high percentage of email is filtered or lost. very frustrating. -brad From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Dec 13 20:03:50 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:03:50 -0500 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've purchased from him. I just wait until the item reaches the price I want to pay. Good shipper. No problems On Dec 13, 2006, at 12:39 PM, Richard wrote: > Has anyone purchased from this guy? > > He has a lot of weird stuff, but the pricing seems like he took the > high number form suggested range in "Collectible Microcomputers" and > multiplied it by 10 or 20. > > You'll also note that every item is marked "rare" even things like > Atari 800! > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 13 20:19:42 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:19:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Al Shugart dies at age 76 Message-ID: <200612140219.kBE2JhtG017474@floodgap.com> I don't remember seeing this noted here, so ... http://news.com.com/Al+Shugart%2C+hard-drive+pioneer%2C+dies+at+76/2100-1015_3-6143474.html?tag=st_lh -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- An apple every eight hours will keep three doctors away. ------------------- From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 20:34:00 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:34:00 -0700 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller Message-ID: Does anyone have experience with one of these puppies? There's one for dirt cheap on ebay right now, item 170059136469. Its Big. Its Blue. Its Heavy. Its IBM! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 20:41:22 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:41:22 -0700 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:03:50 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Robert Borsuk writes: > I've purchased from him. I just wait until the item reaches the > price I want to pay. This implies that he price reduces when he re-lists? Most of the high prices I've seen are from people who re-list with the same high price over and over. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Dec 13 20:56:05 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:56:05 -0800 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4580BD45.9030807@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: >Does anyone have experience with one of these puppies? There's one >for dirt cheap on ebay right now, item 170059136469. > >Its Big. Its Blue. Its Heavy. > >Its IBM! > > It looks like an excellent specimen. It's on the wrong coast, and too large for my collection. the big problem with IBM communications gear like this is that it only runs with IBM licensed software. The public domain versions of MVS an VM won't support it, and Linux on the mainframe does not either. Also it probably is attached via channels, as evidenced by the cable block on the lower picture, which makes it a bit of a white elephant in todays data centers, which have moved to ESCON for the most part. At one time, I think the 3705, a predecessor was a modified 370 processor with a very nice front panel. This one lacks that to make it pretty, and probably makes it a bit safer from scrappers who hack out such things and sell them alone. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 21:21:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:21:57 -0700 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:56:05 -0800. <4580BD45.9030807@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: In article <4580BD45.9030807 at msm.umr.edu>, jim stephens writes: > the big problem with IBM communications gear like this is that it only > runs with IBM licensed > software. The public domain versions of MVS an VM won't support it, and > Linux on the > mainframe does not either. ... at least that's the situation as it stands today. Things can always change sociologically and legally to make a different story tomorrow. But if noone saves the hardware today, how can a different legal story tomorrow make a difference? On the rescue list, it was just stated that Cray is willing to extend hobbyist licenses these days. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 21:26:38 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:26:38 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4580C46E.90007@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > Does anyone have experience with one of these puppies? There's one > for dirt cheap on ebay right now, item 170059136469. > > Its Big. Its Blue. Its Heavy. > > Its IBM! What are you going to hook it to? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 21:29:15 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:29:15 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: <4580BD45.9030807@msm.umr.edu> References: <4580BD45.9030807@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4580C50B.7040508@gmail.com> jim stephens wrote: > Richard wrote: > >> Does anyone have experience with one of these puppies? There's one >> for dirt cheap on ebay right now, item 170059136469. >> >> Its Big. Its Blue. Its Heavy. >> >> Its IBM! >> >> > It looks like an excellent specimen. It's on the wrong coast, and too > large for my collection. > > the big problem with IBM communications gear like this is that it only > runs with IBM licensed > software. The public domain versions of MVS an VM won't support it, and > Linux on the > mainframe does not either. I believe there's limited support for the 3725 in z/Linux. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 21:45:35 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:45:35 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: <4580BD45.9030807@msm.umr.edu> References: <4580BD45.9030807@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: > At one time, I think the 3705, a predecessor was a modified 370 > processor with a very > nice front panel. This one lacks that to make it pretty, and probably > makes it a bit safer > from scrappers who hack out such things and sell them alone. The 3705 uses that modular processor family (whose name escapes me right now), rather than something from the 360 stable. The 3725 may as well - it found places in all sorts of non-processor IBM gear. I am looking for a 3705 panel, as my example has been stripped. 3725s are falling off the Earth quickly - this may be one of the last to be seen for a while, and it would be nice if someone took it. 3745s are also in steep decline. -- Will From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed Dec 13 23:10:52 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 06:10:52 +0100 Subject: VR241 and X.Org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1166073052.11266.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-12-13 at 22:41 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > I'm playing around with a VR241 - the colour monitor bit of the VT241 - > > and trying to make it work as a standard video monitor. It has two pairs > It _is_ a standard video monitor (it's actually a Hitachi chassis inside...) > > of RGB+sync inputs, and an "INT/EXT" (presumably sync) toggle switch. > Yes, that switch selects between separate composite sync on the fourth > BNC socket and sync-on-green. Aha - SOG. Thank you. > > I have been unable to find any specifications for this monitor online. I > > don't think the Monitor Database one is correct - if it is, I'm doing > > something wrong. > It's a normal TV rate (that is, 15.7kHz horizontal, 60Hz vertical) RGB > analogue monitor. Aha. > > Is it possible to hook this thing up to a PC? Is there anything I need > > to bear in mind when configuring X? > It will not sunc to nromal VGA frequencies. Period. I cna't think of a PC > video adapter that will easily drive it, either. I wasn't attempting to get it to - some PC VAs can, I believe, output composite sync or Sync on Green. The options are certainly there in the X configuration file. And I have previously gotten my card to output PAL and NTSC timings. Cheers, -Tore :) From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Wed Dec 13 23:47:45 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:47:45 -0700 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay In-Reply-To: <200612132330.kBDNUIML037756@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612132330.kBDNUIML037756@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4580E581.20505@rogerwilco.org> Jay West wrote: > J Blaser wrote.... > >I don't know anything about HP minis, so I don't know what to look for, but > >for those on the list that have HPs and might be interested... > > > > The main unit: item # 320060663740 > > The FP unit: item # 320060663048 > > > > No bids yet. > > And hopefully there won't be... unless you want parts - cause it's got > issues. > > I noticed this system on ebay a night or two ago. I was going to post a > warning here to people about it, but just didn't get a roundtuit. > > 1) The power supply for the cpu has been pulled (ie. is not present). That > doesn't bode well ;) > 2) The DCPC card (that's DMA to you and me) appears to be missing and the > cable is dangling. This was standard on the 2117 (1000F aka 21MX/F) I think. > 3) There is NO memory, nor a memory controller in the box, they appear to > have been snagged. > 4) Either the FEM board has been pulled, or they just used the wrong cable > to connect the FAB to the cpu board. Given that slot 10 is empty and thus > creates a break in the interrupt chain, I'm guessing the former. That means > you're likely missing microcode. Could just be vendor microcode... or your > base instruction set ;) > 5) There appears to be something homebrew on the TBG board in slot 11. At > least it's nothing I've ever seen. Given the RPL markings on the front this > tends to make me think of process control. Maybe the cable was to allow some > other device to generate the time based interrupts. > 6) Third party board in slot 12. Who knows. > 7) 13037 disk interface in slot 13, that matches the front panel markings as > likely boot device. > 8) Note the 8 channel mux card is not compatible with TSB. Note also the > non-standard edge card connection. PSI board? > 9) 7970 tape controller set, handy to have. > 10) Two microcircuit boards. I happen to REALLY like these. If anyone buys > this sytem, I'd be willing to pay for one or two of these cards :) > 11) Missing board in slot 22... there goes your interrupts. Who knows, maybe > this system ran something that was only polled. > 12) Don't recognize the board in slot 23. > > On the plus side, it IS an F series... the FP unit is auctioned separately > and they are calling it a power supply. Nope, it's a floating point unit. > There IS no power supply - and there sure is supposed to be ;) > > I am not familiar enough with the F series to know if that FP unit includes > all the necessary boards and/or connectors. > > Random thoughts.... > > Jay Jay, thanks for the rundown on this system. The closest I've ever come to an HP mini was when I saw a 6' rack that with one at the local university surplus 'store'. Unfortunately, they were only relocating the system to another part of campus, so would not sell it. Frankly, I was interested in it *because* it was fully racked with drives, etc., and had an ASR-33 with it. It was clearly a whole system. (BTW, I did convince them to sell me the ASR-33!) But, this business with ebay is really starting to annoy me, since it's nearly impossible to find a whole system, these days. Everybody is just parting out the bits and pieces, like that whole series of the '11/40' unibus boards that end this evening. I'm becoming a bit disheartened with the 'chop shop' mentality. And, that's trouble for someone that is ignorant of what key components may or may not be required to get a system functional again. It sure is easier to 'shop' for parts that when you already have knowledge of the system in question. On the other hand, I think that's what I like about this 'hobby'... the exploration and (re)discovery of what these old systems really were/are and how they are operated. I admit that it isn't just the operation of my little collection of qbus systems (PDP's and VAXen) that is the end all, but rather the discovery, in my case (versus re-discovery), of how these system were constructed, configured and operated. Truthfully, this is the fun part for me. So, thanks to you, Jay -- and others on the list -- for keeping the fires burning, and helping us 'ameteurs' out from time to time. J From adamg at pobox.com Wed Dec 13 19:12:34 2006 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:12:34 -0500 Subject: VR241 and X.Org Message-ID: <20061214011234.GA87794@silme.pair.com> >It's a normal TV rate (that is, 15.7kHz horizontal, 60Hz vertical) RGB >analogue monitor. >> Is it possible to hook this thing up to a PC? Is there anything I need >> to bear in mind when configuring X? >It will not sunc to nromal VGA frequencies. Period. I cna't think of a PC >video adapter that will easily drive it, either. Matrox cards (including 220, G100, G200 and G400) have a fully programmable dot-clock, so they should be able to drive it. They'll drive a Commodore 1080, which is also a TV-rate monitor -- I just tried it. Of course, you won't get a valid display until the OS comes up and sets the video mode. I believe there's a tool to flash the video BIOS so it'll power up in the desired mode, but then you won't be able to use a VGA monitor with that card any more, unless you flash it back. -- Adam From adamg at pobox.com Wed Dec 13 19:25:57 2006 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:25:57 -0500 Subject: TI Silent 700 models Message-ID: <20061214012557.GB87794@silme.pair.com> >Did any model Silent 700 ever do "true" lower-case, with descenders and >ascenders, as opposed to small-caps only? On a printout from my TI terminal, the tails on the lowercase y and g do extend below the baseline, but not into the line below. The uppercase O is weird, though -- it's rectangular. According to my notes the terminal is a Silent 700 Model 707. It's in storage so I can't look at it now. It's one of the smaller ones with a direct connect modem. I can scan the printout if you like. -- Adam From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Thu Dec 14 02:09:05 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:09:05 +0100 Subject: VR241 and X.Org In-Reply-To: <20061214011234.GA87794@silme.pair.com> References: <20061214011234.GA87794@silme.pair.com> Message-ID: <1166083745.11266.51.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-12-13 at 20:12 -0500, Adam Goldman wrote: > >It's a normal TV rate (that is, 15.7kHz horizontal, 60Hz vertical) RGB > >analogue monitor. > >> Is it possible to hook this thing up to a PC? Is there anything I need > >> to bear in mind when configuring X? > >It will not sunc to nromal VGA frequencies. Period. I cna't think of a PC > >video adapter that will easily drive it, either. > > Matrox cards (including 220, G100, G200 and G400) have a fully > programmable dot-clock, so they should be able to drive it. They'll drive > a Commodore 1080, which is also a TV-rate monitor -- I just tried it. Timing isn't the issue - most modern cards have a programmable dot-clock - the problem is generating the sync signals. Some cards have the ability to generate SOG or composite, it just seems that mine probably don't (or the driver doesn't implement it) > Of course, you won't get a valid display until the OS comes up and sets > the video mode. I believe there's a tool to flash the video BIOS so it'll > power up in the desired mode, but then you won't be able to use a > VGA monitor with that card any more, unless you flash it back. This isn't a problem - what I'd be using it for would be either a secondary head for video playback, in which case the card wouldn't "wake up" until I started X, or as a monitor on my MythTV box - which is alway s running X anyway. -Tore :) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 14 02:19:42 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:19:42 +0000 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: <200612131906.46847.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 14/12/06 00:06, "Patrick Finnegan" wrote: > On Wednesday 13 December 2006 19:01, Adrian Graham wrote: >> See above :) Obviously you can't run VMS on non VAX/Alpha >> hardware..... > > You mean VAX/Alpha/Itanium2 ;) Meh, I'm ignoring itanic stuff much like my customers are ;) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From Bob.Adamson at sli-institute.ac.uk Thu Dec 14 03:46:14 2006 From: Bob.Adamson at sli-institute.ac.uk (Bob Adamson) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:46:14 -0000 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? Message-ID: <7D7A68F7F09DAE40AE47E55F7F601D8B83443D@SLISERVER21.sli-institute.ac.uk> To add a twopennyworth to the thread, I used a transient analysis program (a bit like Spice for those who are familiar) around 1970 to help in designing MOS integrated circuits. It was called TRIMOS, written in Fortran for the PDP10 and also run on a local university's ICL4130. I had a much-reduced version which I translated into Focal and ran (if that's the right word) on a PDP-8/I around 1971 which was OK for working out DC operating points. The same company had some layout tools again for MOS ICs called IIRC Lady Jane which ran on the 10. This fell into disuse when Calma brought out their DG Nova-based GDS1 system somewhere around 1973. I wouldn't want to go back though. Bob Adamson From cc at corti-net.de Thu Dec 14 03:57:47 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:57:47 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay In-Reply-To: <013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org> <013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Dec 2006, Jay West wrote: >> No bids yet. > And hopefully there won't be... unless you want parts - cause it's got > issues. Many issues... > 1) The power supply for the cpu has been pulled (ie. is not present). That > doesn't bode well ;) And you can't just fit in a standard PC power supply... > 2) The DCPC card (that's DMA to you and me) appears to be missing and the > cable is dangling. This was standard on the 2117 (1000F aka 21MX/F) I think. Yes, it was standard and it's missing. > 3) There is NO memory, nor a memory controller in the box, they appear to > have been snagged. No memory, no memory controller, nothing... > 4) Either the FEM board has been pulled, or they just used the wrong cable to > connect the FAB to the cpu board. Given that slot 10 is empty and thus > creates a break in the interrupt chain, I'm guessing the former. That means > you're likely missing microcode. Could just be vendor microcode... or your > base instruction set ;) Of the three 1000F I have all have their firmware in slot 10 on a FAB because the mainboard simply doesn't have enough sockets for all the ROMs. > 5) There appears to be something homebrew on the TBG board in slot 11. At > least it's nothing I've ever seen. Given the RPL markings on the front this > tends to make me think of process control. Maybe the cable was to allow some > other device to generate the time based interrupts. Doesn't hurt. > 8) Note the 8 channel mux card is not compatible with TSB. Note also the > non-standard edge card connection. PSI board? All 8 channel muxes have these edge card connections. > 9) 7970 tape controller set, handy to have. Not sure whether it's the controller for the 7970B or 7970E. > 10) Two microcircuit boards. I happen to REALLY like these. If anyone buys > this sytem, I'd be willing to pay for one or two of these cards :) These are simple digital I/O boards. But thanks to DCPC any board supports DMA :-) > 12) Don't recognize the board in slot 23. Same as in slot 13. > On the plus side, it IS an F series... the FP unit is auctioned separately Well, it isn't an F series. An F series consists of the proper firmware ROMs (SIS, VIS, FFP, FPP) and the external FP processor, but everything's missing. You could plug in the firmware from an E series, and then it's a 1000E. My machine here also has the RTE6 and SIGNAL/1000 firmware ROMs. > I am not familiar enough with the F series to know if that FP unit includes > all the necessary boards and/or connectors. I think it's complete, but the cables are missing (especially the connection from the FPP to the MPP on the CPU front panel). Christian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 04:15:42 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 23:15:42 +1300 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/14/06, Richard wrote: > Does anyone have experience with one of these puppies? There's one > for dirt cheap on ebay right now, item 170059136469. I know a _little_ bit about them (we used to have a 3705 on our 4331 at Software Results, c. 1984). > Its Big. Its Blue. Its Heavy. It is all of that. If I'm remembering correctly, the 37x5 controllers are SNA PU Type 4 devices (the CPU is a PU Type 5, and terminal controllers like the 3274 are PU Type 2s). They are Channel Attached to the CPU and, essentially, aggregate lots of comparatively low-speed I/O channels and hand data (or take it) in big chunks to (from) the CPU. You might, for example, hook a 3274 terminal controller to a 3705 (as we did) to deploy a quantity of 3270 terminals. You might also hang a 3780 bi-sync workstation or emulator off of a sync channel of the 37x5, as we did as well. I really only ever knew about these boxes from their standpoint on the SNA network. I've never had to fiddle with the hardware. If you don't have a full-on IBM mainframe-class CPU, I can't see how you'd be able to do anything with this sort of box. -ethan From cc at corti-net.de Thu Dec 14 04:16:34 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:16:34 +0100 (CET) Subject: BASF 6114 disk drive In-Reply-To: <45802532.7070706@bitsavers.org> References: <45802532.7070706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Dec 2006, Al Kossow wrote: > It is a Century Data 114 drive. > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/centuryData/TM114-1072-J-1M_Model_114_Tech_Oct73.pdf One more question: Do you also have volume II "Card Schematics and Logic Diagrams" ? (It isn't urgent, I don't need it right now) Christian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 14 05:32:17 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 05:32:17 -0600 Subject: VR241 and X.Org In-Reply-To: <1166083745.11266.51.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20061214011234.GA87794@silme.pair.com> <1166083745.11266.51.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <45813641.1060607@yahoo.co.uk> Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > Timing isn't the issue - most modern cards have a programmable dot-clock > - the problem is generating the sync signals. Some cards have the > ability to generate SOG or composite, it just seems that mine probably > don't (or the driver doesn't implement it) I believe that the older Matrox PCI boards (e.g. the Millennium) will do SOG - they were the preferred choice when it came to driving big SOG-only workstation monitors from a PC. >> Of course, you won't get a valid display until the OS comes up and sets >> the video mode. I believe there's a tool to flash the video BIOS so it'll >> power up in the desired mode, but then you won't be able to use a >> VGA monitor with that card any more, unless you flash it back. > > This isn't a problem - what I'd be using it for would be either a > secondary head for video playback, in which case the card wouldn't "wake > up" until I started X, or as a monitor on my MythTV box - which is alway > s running X anyway. I seem to recall hooking a Matrox board up to a TV in the past (as part of a homebrew music library system), so it'll definitely do TV rates OK. As others have said, the usable resolution isn't anything wonderful, though. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Dec 14 05:47:46 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 03:47:46 -0800 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: <4580C50B.7040508@gmail.com> References: <4580BD45.9030807@msm.umr.edu> <4580C50B.7040508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <458139E2.1000404@msm.umr.edu> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > jim stephens wrote: > > I believe there's limited support for the 3725 in z/Linux. > > Peace... Sridhar I thought that you had to have NCP support to run any 37x5 device. I know hercules emulates the 2703, I think and allows emulated bisync support, and that is not covered by licence, but NCP is. sorry for the off topic boring drift of this. There are other com controlers, a 3745 and also someone has a hugely priced 2540 reader punch (19,995) (vendor is retrosoft) as well as another vendor with a 3803 (Patrick are you sure yours works?) for Patrick, an his problem with his mainframe pile, are the LIC software sets covered by strict license? I thought you could get replacements and could request whatever you liked, though your box was sold as a "coupling facility", it might be worth asking for a regular LIC set. For those who may encounter hardware by IBM in the wild, there are 8" diskettes which were the firmware for a lot of the older devices, or configuration diskettes. Newer systems which may have either PS2/30's PS2/70's or laptops which control the systems have software you load on said systems to in turn boot the IBM boxes. Some scrappers swipe the PS/2's thinking they are all the same, and you have a devil of a time replacing them, and frequently can't get the LIC to reload them. Jim From ygehrich at yahoo.com Thu Dec 14 07:01:30 2006 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:01:30 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061214080047.014e0200@yahoo.com> At 09:34 PM 12/13/2006 Richard wrote: >Does anyone have experience with one of these puppies? There's one >for dirt cheap on ebay right now, item 170059136469. I note that the seller has 108 negatives. Would never purchase anything from someone with so many negatives From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Dec 14 07:03:53 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:03:53 -0500 Subject: RoHS question In-Reply-To: <200612140801.kBE80wo3047192@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004501c71f80$4f31b0c0$6500a8c0@barry> Almost all new equipment has to comply with "RoHS" (Reduction of Hazardous Substances) requirements, which among other things means it's made with lead-free solder. Enforcement is stronger in Europe than in the US, but in any case industry is cleary moving in that direction even when and where not absolutely required by law. Question: If one is repairing RoHS compliant equipment, with respect to functionality only is there a problem with using conventional tin/lead solder? I'm not asking if it's legal or "environmentally friendly", I'm asking if mixing the lead free solder and conventional tin/lead solder will cause functional problems (for example, any kind of problems similar to those which we used to see when someone repaired electronic equipment using plumbing acid flux solder). Also, if one wants to acquire and use RoHS compliant solder, are there any changes that someone accustomed to conventional tin/lead solder needs to make to their soldering technique? And I guess I should also ask the reverse question from the paragraph above: Are there any issues in using lead-free RoHS compliant solders on equipment originally built from tin/lead solder? Are there any other implications of RoHS that a casual classic computer and electronics enthusiast should know about, in either direction? From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Dec 14 06:28:26 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 12:28:26 +0000 Subject: VR241 and X.Org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4581436A.4050308@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > It will not sunc to nromal VGA frequencies. Period. I cna't think of a PC > video adapter that will easily drive it, either. Uhm, any VGA card where you can set a low enough scan rate will drive it, if it's normal TV frequencies. It's just a case of picking a suitable modeline. ATI cards seem to work well for this (well, I suppose they must be good for something). Gordon From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Dec 14 08:39:36 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:39:36 -0000 Subject: RoHS question In-Reply-To: <004501c71f80$4f31b0c0$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <004401c71f8d$aec84a00$6604010a@uatempname> Barry Watzman wrote: > Question: If one is repairing RoHS compliant equipment, with respect > to functionality only is there a problem with using conventional > tin/lead solder? I'm not asking if it's legal or "environmentally > friendly", I'm asking if mixing the lead free solder and conventional > tin/lead solder will cause functional problems (for example, any kind > of problems similar to those which we used to see when someone > repaired electronic equipment using plumbing acid flux solder). I don't know the legal implications for sure but the advice I've seen is that you can continue to use tin-lead solder for repairs to existing equipment, but not to manufacture new equipment. The implication is that ROHS-solder does not work well on older components, so use tin-lead solder there as before. I'm in the UK and I'm about to purchase some tin-lead solder: the fact that it is available suggests that it is (a) legal and (b) required (or at least, very convenient). I've not tried any of the "new solder" yet, so I have no advice to offer there. I also don't know what the legal situation is for hobbyists (can I do a new proto build using components and solder on-hand, which are all currently non-RoHS)? Antonio From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Dec 14 09:05:32 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:05:32 -0600 Subject: Zuse quotes In-Reply-To: <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1C00@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com> References: <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1C00@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com> Message-ID: <4581683C.302@ubanproductions.com> I was talking with a German friend recently and the discussion turned to Zuse, which led me to check the wikipedia, where I found a couple of interesting quotes: * "The belief in a certain idea gives to the researcher the support for his work. Without this belief he would be lost in a sea of doubts and insufficiently verified proofs." * "The rattling of the Z4 is the only interesting thing about the Z?rich night life." Enjoy! --tom From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 14 09:05:46 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:05:46 -0700 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:26:38 -0500. <4580C46E.90007@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4580C46E.90007 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > Richard wrote: > > Does anyone have experience with one of these puppies? There's one > > for dirt cheap on ebay right now, item 170059136469. > > > > Its Big. Its Blue. Its Heavy. > > > > Its IBM! > > What are you going to hook it to? Me? I have one of those funky IBM ("we only talk to our own world") terminals. If it were convenient for me to pickup, I would adopt this puppy. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 09:08:24 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:08:24 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20061214080047.014e0200@yahoo.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20061214080047.014e0200@yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I note that the seller has 108 negatives. Would never purchase > anything from someone with so many negatives With 12338 positives? Thats a 99.1 percent approval rating. Quite respectable. One must remember that when an Ebay buyer gets this big, it is extremely difficult to please all of the people all of the time. Stuff slips thru cracks. People that the buyer employs screw up. Things get lost in the mail. And, there are always a few soreheads out there, too. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 09:10:21 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:10:21 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: <458139E2.1000404@msm.umr.edu> References: <4580BD45.9030807@msm.umr.edu> <4580C50B.7040508@gmail.com> <458139E2.1000404@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: > sorry for the off topic boring drift of this. Yes, it is not DEC, floppy formatting, or D shell naming conventions, thus it is boring... -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 14 09:10:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:10:15 -0700 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 14 Dec 2006 23:15:42 +1300. Message-ID: In article , "Ethan Dicks" writes: > If you don't have a full-on IBM mainframe-class CPU, I can't see how > you'd be able to do anything with this sort of box. Am I the only one that acquires hardware for which I don't (yet) have any useful way to hook it up? I mean, I've got graphics accelerators for Sun/DEC/IBM workstations where I don't have the card that goes into the host, or even a host to hook it into. I've got an HP graphics generator and no oscilloscope to hook it up to. I've got dial boxes and tablets and no machine to hook them to. Eventually I hope to fill in the missing pieces, but given that the pieces I have already are hard to obtain, that may be impossible. I have an offer of an E&S Picture System II monitor. Not the whole terminal, just the monitor. Sure, I'll take that. What's so wrong about rescuing a piece of classic equipment for which you don't currently have anything else that goes with it? Nothing in my book. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 09:16:24 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:16:24 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45816AC8.1000204@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > In article <4580C46E.90007 at gmail.com>, > Sridhar Ayengar writes: > >> Richard wrote: >>> Does anyone have experience with one of these puppies? There's one >>> for dirt cheap on ebay right now, item 170059136469. >>> >>> Its Big. Its Blue. Its Heavy. >>> >>> Its IBM! >> What are you going to hook it to? > > Me? I have one of those funky IBM ("we only talk to our own world") > terminals. If it were convenient for me to pickup, I would adopt this > puppy. But which *machine* are you going to hook it to? Peace... Sridhar From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 14 09:20:42 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:20:42 -0700 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:01:30 -0500. <7.0.1.0.2.20061214080047.014e0200@yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <7.0.1.0.2.20061214080047.014e0200 at yahoo.com>, Gene Ehrich writes: > At 09:34 PM 12/13/2006 Richard wrote: > >Does anyone have experience with one of these puppies? There's one > >for dirt cheap on ebay right now, item 170059136469. > > I note that the seller has 108 negatives. Would never purchase > anything from someone with so many negatives They also have 12,400 positives. I note that other people on this list have purchased from this seller with positive comments, as recently as yesterday. So out of curiosity, I browsed through all their recent feedback and looked at the negatives. All of them were from people with a feedback score of less than 50 themselves, some of them complaining about things like custom fees (why is this the seller's responsibility?) and other such stuff like "it doesn't work" on an item whose description says "repair or use for parts". This seller looks like a reasonable person to me, even when the buyers aren't. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 14 09:28:33 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:28:33 -0700 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:16:24 -0500. <45816AC8.1000204@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <45816AC8.1000204 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > Richard wrote: > > In article <4580C46E.90007 at gmail.com>, > > Sridhar Ayengar writes: > > > >> Richard wrote: > >>> Its IBM! > >> What are you going to hook it to? > > > > Me? I have one of those funky IBM ("we only talk to our own world") > > terminals. If it were convenient for me to pickup, I would adopt this > > puppy. > > But which *machine* are you going to hook it to? FIIK. But hey, its still useful for keeping your shed from blowing away in a tornado. As I said earlier, I have various pieces to which I have nothing to attach on the other end. My feeling is that with items of a certain rarity, if you are given the opportunity, perhaps only once, to rescue the item then you should. Figure out what to hook up to it later. ;-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 14 09:38:47 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:38:47 -0600 Subject: Zuse quotes In-Reply-To: <4581683C.302@ubanproductions.com> References: <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1C00@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com> <4581683C.302@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <45817007.802@yahoo.co.uk> Tom Uban wrote: > I was talking with a German friend recently and the discussion turned > to Zuse, which led me to check the wikipedia, where I found a couple of > interesting quotes: > > * "The belief in a certain idea gives to the researcher the support > for his work. Without this belief he would be lost in a sea of doubts > and insufficiently verified proofs." That's interesting. These days it's (depressingly) more like: "The belief in the ability to sell a certain idea...". Whether the idea's actually any good or not is beside the point, so long as someone can get rich off it :-( From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 09:44:26 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:44:26 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: <45816AC8.1000204@gmail.com> References: <45816AC8.1000204@gmail.com> Message-ID: > But which *machine* are you going to hook it to? If that 3725 can be used as a far end machine, he can talk to yours over the phone... -- Will From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 09:53:48 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:53:48 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: References: <45816AC8.1000204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4581738C.50707@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> But which *machine* are you going to hook it to? > > If that 3725 can be used as a far end machine, he can talk to yours > over the phone... I'd certainly be willing to do that. Peace... Sridhar From rollerton at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 09:57:08 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 09:57:08 -0600 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: References: <45816AC8.1000204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2789adda0612140757w44f06d01j7e26eec4d634b236@mail.gmail.com> On 12/14/06, Richard wrote: > > > In article <45816AC8.1000204 at gmail.com>, > Sridhar Ayengar writes: > > > Richard wrote: > > > In article <4580C46E.90007 at gmail.com>, > > > Sridhar Ayengar writes: > > > > > >> Richard wrote: > > >>> Its IBM! > > >> What are you going to hook it to? > > > > > > Me? I have one of those funky IBM ("we only talk to our own world") > > > terminals. If it were convenient for me to pickup, I would adopt this > > > puppy. > > > > But which *machine* are you going to hook it to? > > FIIK. But hey, its still useful for keeping your shed from blowing > away in a tornado. > > As I said earlier, I have various pieces to which I have nothing to > attach on the other end. My feeling is that with items of a certain > rarity, if you are given the opportunity, perhaps only once, to rescue > the item then you should. Figure out what to hook up to it later. ;-) > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! Imagine this hooked up to a PDP8! or an Imsai! now thats cookin. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 10:06:51 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:06:51 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: <2789adda0612140757w44f06d01j7e26eec4d634b236@mail.gmail.com> References: <45816AC8.1000204@gmail.com> <2789adda0612140757w44f06d01j7e26eec4d634b236@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4581769B.4000904@gmail.com> Robert Ollerton wrote: > Imagine this hooked up to a PDP8! or an Imsai! now thats cookin. The machines that this hooks to are a lot larger than the largest PDP-8. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Dec 14 10:17:30 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:17:30 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: <4581769B.4000904@gmail.com> References: <45816AC8.1000204@gmail.com> <2789adda0612140757w44f06d01j7e26eec4d634b236@mail.gmail.com> <4581769B.4000904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200612141117.30289.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 14 December 2006 11:06, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Robert Ollerton wrote: > > Imagine this hooked up to a PDP8! or an Imsai! now thats cookin. > > The machines that this hooks to are a lot larger than the largest > PDP-8. 8-) There's no reason you couldn't hook this to, say, the P/370 that was just on eBay (and had a bus and tag port). That's smaller than even an 8/e. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 10:35:42 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:35:42 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: <200612141117.30289.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <45816AC8.1000204@gmail.com> <2789adda0612140757w44f06d01j7e26eec4d634b236@mail.gmail.com> <4581769B.4000904@gmail.com> <200612141117.30289.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <45817D5E.5000305@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> Imagine this hooked up to a PDP8! or an Imsai! now thats cookin. >> The machines that this hooks to are a lot larger than the largest >> PDP-8. 8-) > > There's no reason you couldn't hook this to, say, the P/370 that was just > on eBay (and had a bus and tag port). That's smaller than even an 8/e. Except that (if memory serves) this kind of coprocessing communications aggregator would be able to pass more data than the P/370 has I/O bandwidth. Anyway, I've seen many P/390 installations that are bigger than a PDP-8. Peace... Sridhar From spedraja at ono.com Thu Dec 14 10:36:18 2006 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 17:36:18 +0100 Subject: Nixdorf BA80 Terminal and Quattro Computer In-Reply-To: <200612141117.30289.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4549BAED0002A991@resmta03.ono.com> Hello. I am searching for one BA80 terminal to use with one Nixdorf Quattro, or one cable to connect the Quattro computer to one PC serial port and access it using one Terminal Emulation program (like Netterm or similar). Contact off list if consider it good. Thanks and Greetings Sergio From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Dec 14 10:50:30 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:50:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: RoHS question In-Reply-To: <004501c71f80$4f31b0c0$6500a8c0@barry> References: <004501c71f80$4f31b0c0$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Dec 2006, Barry Watzman wrote: > Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 08:03:53 -0500 > From: Barry Watzman > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: RoHS question > > Almost all new equipment has to comply with "RoHS" (Reduction of Hazardous > Substances) requirements, which among other things means it's made with > lead-free solder. Enforcement is stronger in Europe than in the US, but in > any case industry is cleary moving in that direction even when and where not > absolutely required by law. > > Question: If one is repairing RoHS compliant equipment, with respect to > functionality only is there a problem with using conventional tin/lead > solder? I'm not asking if it's legal or "environmentally friendly", I'm > asking if mixing the lead free solder and conventional tin/lead solder will > cause functional problems (for example, any kind of problems similar to > those which we used to see when someone repaired electronic equipment using > plumbing acid flux solder). Not a good idea to mix solders, If its tin/lead, use tin/lead solder for repairs, In the RoHS case its trickier because its not so easy to tell which of the various RoHS compliant solders were used. > > Also, if one wants to acquire and use RoHS compliant solder, are there any > changes that someone accustomed to conventional tin/lead solder needs to > make to their soldering technique? And I guess I should also ask the > reverse question from the paragraph above: Are there any issues in using > lead-free RoHS compliant solders on equipment originally built from tin/lead > solder? Yes, its not a good idea... The SN/CU/AG RoHS compliant solder I'm used to has a higher melting point, so its not a good idea to use that for repairs on a SN/PB assembled board because of possible heat damage. Our RoHS compliant PCB assemblies use a special FR4 material that will take the higher soldering temperatures of the SN/CU/AG solder. You always risk PCB damage during a repair, so why increase the risk? When hand soldering with the SN/CU/AG solder the noticable differences are the higher melting point of the solder, slightly lower wetting ability, and instant freezing. The finished solder joints look grainier (they would look like colder solder joints if SN/PB solder was used). The finished joints are quite a bit stronger than SN/PB solderer joints, maybe twice as strong. > > Are there any other implications of RoHS that a casual classic computer and > electronics enthusiast should know about, in either direction? > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From steerex at mindspring.com Thu Dec 14 11:48:54 2006 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 12:48:54 -0500 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay Message-ID: <01C71F7E.36E70A80@MAGGIE> >>10) Two microcircuit boards. I happen to REALLY like these. If anyone buys this sytem, I'd be willing to pay for one or two of these cards :) Jay, I have 4 or 5 complete HP1000's and a bunch of spare boards. I wouldn't offer them to just "anyone" but, if you need a couple of microcircuit boards, I'd part with them for the cost of shipping. If there's any other boards that you "REALLY" need, I might be willing to part with some of them as well. See Ya, SteveRob From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Dec 14 11:49:07 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:49:07 -0600 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay References: <200612132330.kBDNUIML037756@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4580E581.20505@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <009301c71fa8$29973290$6500a8c0@BILLING> J Blaser wrote.... > Jay, thanks for the rundown on this system. The closest I've ever come to > an HP mini was when I saw a 6' rack that with one at the local university > surplus 'store'. Unfortunately, they were only relocating the system to > another part of campus, so would not sell it. Frankly, I was interested > in it *because* it was fully racked with drives, etc., and had an ASR-33 > with it. It was clearly a whole system. (BTW, I did convince them to > sell me the ASR-33!) So, um... where is it NOW? ;) Not the teletype, but the mini rack? Jay From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 14 12:07:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:07:55 -0700 Subject: HP-3000 (was: HP HP-2117F on ebay) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:49:07 -0600. <009301c71fa8$29973290$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: Speaking of old HP minis, does anyone have an HP-3000 in their collection? Not the newer ones, but the ones from the mid to late 70s. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Dec 14 12:22:03 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:22:03 -0800 Subject: HP-3000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4581964B.1080607@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: >Speaking of old HP minis, does anyone have an HP-3000 in their >collection? Not the newer ones, but the ones from the mid to late >70s. > > I have one available if anyone is interested. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Dec 14 12:40:24 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 12:40:24 -0600 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org><013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <00a201c71faf$515f33c0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Christian wrote.... > Of the three 1000F I have all have their firmware in slot 10 on a FAB > because the mainboard simply doesn't have enough sockets for all the ROMs. I doubt that seriously. I'd like to see how you could put a FAB board in an I/O slot ;) On most 21MX/F's the general F-specific microcode was put on a FAB board which goes under the cpu board (as a daughtercard). The reason was simple - they didn't want to waste an I/O slot with a FEM. Another reason is because many systems had hard coded requirements of what boards you put in what I/O slots, and a FEM board messed things up. When the FAB board ran out of room then they'd start going to a FEM. When possible, I like to remove the FAB and only use the FEM as it's easier to get to the roms and change them (and I change them a lot). Most people would rather use the FAB as firmware was rarely changed and they valued the I/O slot real-estate. A wild guess - this system had vendor supplied proprietary microcode on the FEM that was in slot 10. When the system was decomissioned, the licensed firmware board (the whole FEM) was yanked. The F microcode is likely on the FAB underneath. More to the point... note that a FAB (and FEM) was optional on the E series. On the F series, the FAB was required but the FEM was optional. Why? See above. I wrote... >> 5) There appears to be something homebrew on the TBG board in slot 11. Christian replied... > Doesn't hurt. Well, it sure could if you need a TBG and don't have one already. What if the cable was to generate interrupts to the host from an external device, and the setup was a 'normally closed' configuration? Your processor would become rather sluggish when interrupts were armed :D > These are simple digital I/O boards. But thanks to DCPC any board supports > DMA :-) There is a reason I prefer these "simple boards". My preferred setup typically uses six 12566 boards per system. I find myself changing their configuration a lot. It's been a while, but I seem to recall I had to generally change the jumper settings any time I wanted to run diags on them too. The non-microcircuit badged 12566 boards (GRD TRU +/-) are all soldered jumpers, some of them 3 way posts with multiple jumpers. The microcircuit badged 12566 boards are generally the later revision that uses jumper plugs. MUCH easier to work with if you're changing jumpers a lot. I think the later revisions also offer some additional functionality that the older ones don't. Something about a "party line" seems to be lurking in foggy memory... >> 12) Don't recognize the board in slot 23. > > Same as in slot 13. Doh! I should have noticed that. The led & plugs on the left are a dead giveaway. But since that board requires DMA.... and there's nothing in slot 22.... >> On the plus side, it IS an F series... the FP unit is auctioned >> separately > > Well, it isn't an F series. An F series consists of the proper firmware > ROMs (SIS, VIS, FFP, FPP) and the external FP processor, but everything's > missing. You could plug in the firmware from an E series, and then it's a > 1000E. That's not necessarily correct, the machine on ebay may WELL be an F series, and likely is. See that shielded ribbon connector on the back left? That's connecting the cpu to the FAB board underneath (as well as a dangling end for what was probably a FEM board in slot 10). So I bet ya a lunch that the F firmware is whats on the FAB underneath. Again, Im not an expert on the F series. But the 2111F doesn't have an external FP processor does it? Just the 2117F does? Both are certainly F series. > My machine here also has the RTE6 and SIGNAL/1000 firmware ROMs. I believe I have those... I think I just saw the DS1000 roms a few days ago on my workbench. Ya know, there's a problem with just using a FEM board. You don't have the sockets for the smaller proms there. Only on the FAB. Ah, that's why I wanted to find blanks for the larger proms - so I could migrate the IOP firmware to the FEM. WCS would be more fun.... Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Dec 14 12:49:53 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 12:49:53 -0600 Subject: HP-3000 References: <4581964B.1080607@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <00d701c71fb0$a480d440$6500a8c0@BILLING> Jim wrote... > I have one available if anyone is interested. *PERK* Been looking for a series III for ages. Alas, no space at this time :( Jay From evan at snarc.net Thu Dec 14 13:18:25 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:18:25 -0500 Subject: Anyone want 15 minutes of fame? In-Reply-To: <005f01c71e43$f16ea1b0$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> Message-ID: <002301c71fb4$a0e84760$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Will do soon. -----Original Message----- From: John D. Reeve [mailto:reevejd at mchsi.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 6:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone want 15 minutes of fame? Evan, would you mind posting a list of the available kits? Thanks, John R. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 12:31 AM Subject: Anyone want 15 minutes of fame? > Hi all. I'm writing an article for MIT's Technology Review magazine about > vintage computer replica kits. I need someone to interview RIGHT AWAY. > It's currently 1:30AM here on the east coast but that is okay. So, if > you're awake and have any opinions about the various replica kits, or > especially if you've built one or plan to get one soon, then email me > OFF-LIST but RIGHT NOW. (Sorry for the late notice!!) I'm at > evan at snarc.net. Be sure to leave your phone number because I don't have > time for playing tag tonight. > > Thanks! At least 15 minutes of fame gauranteed. :) > > - Evan > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 14 13:24:20 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:24:20 -0800 Subject: HP-3000 (was: HP HP-2117F on ebay) Message-ID: <4581A4E4.80407@bitsavers.org> > Speaking of old HP minis, does anyone have an HP-3000 in their > collection? CHM has a Series II, Series III and a model 44. Finding MPE that will run on these is the problem. There has been talk of a classic 3000 simulator for a while, but I've not been able to find early enough software releases for the machines with good hardware documentation. The 4x series machines have a console processor is a HP proprietary microcontroller unlike those that came out of Fort Collins. From jrkeys at jrkeys.cnc.net Thu Dec 14 13:18:29 2006 From: jrkeys at jrkeys.cnc.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 13:18:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: HP-3000 (was: HP HP-2117F on ebay) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200612141918.OAA11635@courageux.cnc.net> ---- General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts wrote: > > > Speaking of old HP minis, does anyone have an HP-3000 in their > collection? Not the newer ones, but the ones from the mid to late > 70s. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > I have one up in MN (in storage), I got it from 3M surplus. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 14 13:52:26 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:52:26 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6D88F5E1-F4CB-47B1-940C-1B2C5DC0F461@neurotica.com> On Dec 14, 2006, at 10:10 AM, Richard wrote: > Am I the only one that acquires hardware for which I don't (yet) have > any useful way to hook it up? I mean, I've got graphics accelerators > for Sun/DEC/IBM workstations where I don't have the card that goes > into > the host, or even a host to hook it into. I've got an HP graphics > generator and no oscilloscope to hook it up to. I've got dial boxes > and tablets and no machine to hook them to. Eventually I hope to fill > in the missing pieces, but given that the pieces I have already are > hard to obtain, that may be impossible. > > I have an offer of an E&S Picture System II monitor. Not the whole > terminal, just the monitor. Sure, I'll take that. > > What's so wrong about rescuing a piece of classic equipment for which > you don't currently have anything else that goes with it? Nothing in > my book. I'm with you there. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 13:52:36 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:52:36 -0500 Subject: Batteries Message-ID: <4581AB84.9040500@gmail.com> I'm looking for AAA-sized rechargeable batteries. Good capacity would be nice, but the main thing I'm looking for is that it should be able to supply a fairly high peaky current draw. Any suggestions? Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 14 13:38:40 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 19:38:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VR241 and X.Org In-Reply-To: <1166073052.11266.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> from "Tore Sinding Bekkedal" at Dec 14, 6 06:10:52 am Message-ID: > I wasn't attempting to get it to - some PC VAs can, I believe, output > composite sync or Sync on Green. The options are certainly there in the That is the easy part of the problem :-) There are several circuits for this on thw web I believe. > X configuration file. And I have previously gotten my card to output PAL > and NTSC timings. If you can do NTSC timing it should be fine. Random mutterins : This monitor is not pleasant to repair, if yoy ever have to do it. Most of the circuity on the PSU board is directly connected to the mains power line (!). And the power supply is very unconventional. There's an astable on the PSU board that gets it going, but which is disabled shortly after power-up. For mormal operation, the PSU is driven by a winding on the flyback transformer. So fo the PSU to run for any length of time, the horixontal oscillator (part of the hybrid circuit in tbe middle of the dflection PCB), the horixontal output stage, the flyback transformer, etc all have to be working. Makes faultfinding 'interesting' :-) -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 14 13:53:01 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:53:01 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7B7CD5BA-F372-42F7-845B-DD8732AD80DB@neurotica.com> On Dec 14, 2006, at 10:28 AM, Richard wrote: >>>>> Its IBM! >>>> What are you going to hook it to? >>> >>> Me? I have one of those funky IBM ("we only talk to our own world") >>> terminals. If it were convenient for me to pickup, I would adopt >>> this >>> puppy. >> >> But which *machine* are you going to hook it to? > > FIIK. But hey, its still useful for keeping your shed from blowing > away in a tornado. HEY! That's a great idea. I lost a shed during Hurricane Charley! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 14 13:54:28 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:54:28 -0500 Subject: HP-3000 (was: HP HP-2117F on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F878097-2E83-45DE-A58F-0767B28D8062@neurotica.com> On Dec 14, 2006, at 1:07 PM, Richard wrote: > Speaking of old HP minis, does anyone have an HP-3000 in their > collection? Not the newer ones, but the ones from the mid to late > 70s. I have one sitting in a warehouse in Maryland that needs to get picked up before it gets trashed. I don't recall the details, but it has a tape drive and two hard drives. It will fit in an average car. Any takers? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From evan at snarc.net Thu Dec 14 14:01:18 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 15:01:18 -0500 Subject: Batteries In-Reply-To: <4581AB84.9040500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004401c71fba$9eaf1180$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I usually buy that stuff from digikey.com or from the Batteries Plus retail stores (batteriesplus.com). -----Original Message----- From: Sridhar Ayengar [mailto:ploopster at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 2:53 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; The Geeks List Subject: Batteries I'm looking for AAA-sized rechargeable batteries. Good capacity would be nice, but the main thing I'm looking for is that it should be able to supply a fairly high peaky current draw. Any suggestions? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 14:20:45 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 15:20:45 -0500 Subject: Batteries In-Reply-To: <004401c71fba$9eaf1180$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <004401c71fba$9eaf1180$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <4581B21D.9090709@gmail.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > I usually buy that stuff from digikey.com or from the Batteries Plus retail > stores (batteriesplus.com). I know *where* to buy batteries. But what technology? Peace... Sridhar From rivie at ridgenet.net Thu Dec 14 14:22:25 2006 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 12:22:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Zuse quotes In-Reply-To: <45817007.802@yahoo.co.uk> References: <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1C00@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com> <4581683C.302@ubanproductions.com> <45817007.802@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Dec 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Tom Uban wrote: >> I was talking with a German friend recently and the discussion turned >> to Zuse, which led me to check the wikipedia, where I found a couple of >> interesting quotes: >> >> * "The belief in a certain idea gives to the researcher the support >> for his work. Without this belief he would be lost in a sea of doubts >> and insufficiently verified proofs." > > That's interesting. These days it's (depressingly) more like: "The belief in > the ability to sell a certain idea...". Whether the idea's actually any good > or not is beside the point, so long as someone can get rich off it :-( The quote is talking about support more in terms of knowing what you're doing and where you're heading rather than money. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From evan at snarc.net Thu Dec 14 14:40:18 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 15:40:18 -0500 Subject: Batteries In-Reply-To: <4581B21D.9090709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004d01c71fc0$115df2a0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Ah, I see. I would guess lithium ion. Powerful enough to run laptops. At the BP store in Whippany, N.J., there's a technician whose name is (get this) Maven. He usually has excellent advice on these things. -----Original Message----- From: Sridhar Ayengar [mailto:ploopster at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 3:21 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Batteries Evan Koblentz wrote: > I usually buy that stuff from digikey.com or from the Batteries Plus > retail stores (batteriesplus.com). I know *where* to buy batteries. But what technology? Peace... Sridhar From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Dec 14 15:03:30 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 15:03:30 -0600 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org><013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING> <00a201c71faf$515f33c0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <004b01c71fc3$518eb820$6500a8c0@BILLING> Christian wrote.... >> Well, it isn't an F series. An F series consists of the proper firmware >> ROMs (SIS, VIS, FFP, FPP) and the external FP processor, but everything's >> missing. Ok, this piqued my curiosity so I went to the manuals and checked. The F series consists of the 2111F and the 2117F. The 2117F has an external hardware floating point unit mounted in a rackmount chassis underneath the cpu chassis. The 2111F also has a hardware floating point unit, but it is not mounted in a external chassis. It is mounted INSIDE the normal 1000 series chassis. I'd be curious to see just how that was done! There is obviously no room for the same physical parts. Perhaps it was put in the memory cage and the cable run to the MPP port? In any case, it must have been a very different card(s) (although functionally equivalent). Aha... I just found a picture in the manual that may elucidate this. The 2111 chassis is just as tall as the 2117 chassis, but it has 5 less I/O & memory slots at the top. Methinks the space at the top is where a 2111F specific hardware floating point unit must go. So, an F series doesn't always have the external FP processor. They all do have hardware floating point processors as separate systems. Oddly enough, the 2111F doesn't have DMS as standard while the 2117F does. That accounts for the difference in instruction set counts. Jay From ygehrich at yahoo.com Thu Dec 14 15:28:30 2006 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 16:28:30 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20061214080047.014e0200@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061214162747.0602ec50@yahoo.com> At 10:08 AM 12/14/2006 William Donzelli wrote: >>I note that the seller has 108 negatives. Would never purchase >>anything from someone with so many negatives > >With 12338 positives? Thats a 99.1 percent approval rating. Quite respectable. If 108 people are unhappy enough to leave a negative I dont care what the percentages are he's a crook From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 14 15:35:52 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:35:52 -0700 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 14 Dec 2006 16:28:30 -0500. <7.0.1.0.2.20061214162747.0602ec50@yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <7.0.1.0.2.20061214162747.0602ec50 at yahoo.com>, Gene Ehrich writes: > At 10:08 AM 12/14/2006 William Donzelli wrote: > >>I note that the seller has 108 negatives. Would never purchase > >>anything from someone with so many negatives > > > >With 12338 positives? Thats a 99.1 percent approval rating. Quite respectabl e. > > If 108 people are unhappy enough to leave a negative I dont care what > the percentages are he's a crook Just out of curiosity, have you ever run a business where the customers are pulled from the general public? There's nothing you can do about people who are assholes all by themselves and expect you to burgle turds from their ass and smile while doing it in the name of "customer service". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From kth at srv.net Thu Dec 14 16:13:25 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 15:13:25 -0700 Subject: Batteries In-Reply-To: <4581B21D.9090709@gmail.com> References: <004401c71fba$9eaf1180$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <4581B21D.9090709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4581CC85.4070906@srv.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> I usually buy that stuff from digikey.com or from the Batteries Plus >> retail >> stores (batteriesplus.com). > > > I know *where* to buy batteries. > > But what technology? > > Peace... Sridhar > Sony. Because we like things that go "BANG!" From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 14 16:15:06 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 16:15:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller Message-ID: <200612142215.kBEMF4Ah086052@keith.ezwind.net> --- Richard wrote: > > In article > <7.0.1.0.2.20061214162747.0602ec50 at yahoo.com>, > Gene Ehrich writes: *>> snip <<* > > >With 12338 positives? Thats a 99.1 percent > approval rating. Quite respectabl > e. > > > > If 108 people are unhappy enough to leave a > negative I dont care what > > the percentages are he's a crook > > Just out of curiosity, have you ever run a busines s > where the > customers are pulled from the general public? > > There's nothing you can do about people who are > assholes all by > themselves and expect you to burgle turds from the ir > ass and smile > while doing it in the name of "customer service". Exactly. I am really only a buyer and have only ever sold one item. I currently have a rating of 99 on there. Thats 101 positives and 2 negatives. The first negative was added accidentally by a buyer, long before the option to mutually agree to remove feedback was added, and he sent me an email to apologise for his mistake. The 2nd one is, however, valid. I won too many items at the same time and relied heavily on my emails to check what was paid for etc. I missed an item and didn't realise until it was far too late (I had a seperate email account specifically for it back then and only checked it every 2-3 weeks). You will always find someone with negative feedback. If you didn't, then I'd be rather suspicious - especially if they have more than 1,000 positives. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From evan at snarc.net Thu Dec 14 16:26:11 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 17:26:11 -0500 Subject: Batteries In-Reply-To: <4581CC85.4070906@srv.net> Message-ID: <000801c71fce$dc2980e0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> HA !!!! Good one. -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Handy [mailto:kth at srv.net] Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 5:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Batteries Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> I usually buy that stuff from digikey.com or from the Batteries Plus >> retail stores (batteriesplus.com). > > > I know *where* to buy batteries. > > But what technology? > > Peace... Sridhar > Sony. Because we like things that go "BANG!" From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Dec 14 16:30:37 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 22:30:37 -0000 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: <200612142215.kBEMF4Ah086052@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <005f01c71fcf$7d47fe70$6604010a@uatempname> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > You will always find someone with negative > feedback. If you didn't, then I'd be rather > suspicious - especially if they have more than > 1,000 positives. I've just bought some tools from a seller with a rating of over 21000 and 100% status. Although now that I look very closely there are actually 4 negs in there. Still my stuff arrived so I guess I should be grateful that I wasn't one of the unlucky ones :-) Antonio From bpritts at pritts.com Thu Dec 14 17:04:40 2006 From: bpritts at pritts.com (Brad Pritts) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:04:40 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller Message-ID: <4581D888.80900@pritts.com> In the early '80s at ADP Network Services (old timesharing service), we connected a couple of IBM and compatible mainframes (IBM 4381, Amdahl 470) to our packet switching network. It took our systems guys a bit of work, but indeed, they did connect the 3725 to a PDP-8... and from that, to the rest of the packet switching network. (The network was originally designed and optimized for PDP-10's, which coexisted with the blue boxes.) The IBM side ran under CICS. As I recall we eventually needed 4 PDP-8's (as network bridges) to carry all of the traffic from the 2 IBM boxes-- supporting 400 or 500 simultaneous users. Ah, the old days... Brad Pritts (now strictly an end user!) (We had several hundred PDP-8's which we used as network nodes.) Eventua Message: 24 Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:35:42 -0500 From: Sridhar Ayengar Subject: Re: IBM 3725 Communications Controller To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <45817D5E.5000305 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>>>>> Imagine this hooked up to a PDP8! or an Imsai! now thats cookin. >>> >>> >>>> The machines that this hooks to are a lot larger than the largest >>>> PDP-8. 8-) >> >> >> >> There's no reason you couldn't hook this to, say, the P/370 that was just >> on eBay (and had a bus and tag port). That's smaller than even an 8/e. > > Except that (if memory serves) this kind of coprocessing communications aggregator would be able to pass more data than the P/370 has I/O bandwidth. Anyway, I've seen many P/390 installations that are bigger than a PDP-8. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 17:02:09 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:02:09 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: References: <7.0.1.0.2.20061214162747.0602ec50@yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Just out of curiosity, have you ever run a business where the > customers are pulled from the general public? > > There's nothing you can do about people who are assholes all by > themselves and expect you to burgle turds from their ass and smile > while doing it in the name of "customer service". Folks, here is a man that has his head screwed on straight. -- Will From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Dec 14 17:08:28 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 15:08:28 -0800 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: <4581D888.80900@pritts.com> References: <4581D888.80900@pritts.com> Message-ID: <4581D96C.7030307@msm.umr.edu> Brad Pritts wrote: > In the early '80s at ADP Network Services (old timesharing service), > we connected a couple of IBM and compatible mainframes (IBM 4381, > Amdahl 470) to our packet switching network. Brad, did you have any experience with the Microdata systems run by what I recall was called the Commercial Division, or with Dealer Services? They had several thousand Microdata Reality systems running all around the country doing accounting crap for people and for the Dealer services they did insurance prep and sales paperwork for the Car dealers. Also did inventory, and kept the info for the dealers for their cars. Later Microdata did a system that emulated a modified Reality firmware which ran on a custom PDP 11 system and moved that "Low End" system to the dealers location, as timeshare began to fall out of favor, and began to loose cost effectivness. I believe that the competition ran Reality as well, as far as the Dealer services competition was concerned but went out of their way to deny it. Lots of nice HP3000's, Microdata systems would have been to be had when all those data centers were converted and shut down. Jim From steerex at mindspring.com Thu Dec 14 17:21:13 2006 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:21:13 -0500 Subject: HP-3000 (was: HP HP-2117F on ebay) Message-ID: <01C71FAC.A3CA2B40@MAGGIE> I have a 3000/37 that I run on occasion. I did have a /42 before my big move last year. I didn't have enough room so, I had to let it go. Both machines ran MPE/V which I got from HP during their great Y2K upgrade/giveaway. I'd really like to find a machine that runs MPE/IX. I see them on Ebay occasionally but, they are either too much money on on the other side of the country. See yas, SteveRob ---------- From: Richard Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:07 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: HP-3000 (was: HP HP-2117F on ebay) Speaking of old HP minis, does anyone have an HP-3000 in their collection? Not the newer ones, but the ones from the mid to late 70s. From steerex at mindspring.com Thu Dec 14 17:22:58 2006 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:22:58 -0500 Subject: HP-3000 (was: HP HP-2117F on ebay) Message-ID: <01C71FAC.E2418850@MAGGIE> I have MPE/V that ran on my /42. Is that what you're looking for? SteveRob ---------- CHM has a Series II, Series III and a model 44. Finding MPE that will run on these is the problem. There has been talk of a classic 3000 simulator for a while, but I've not been able to find early enough software releases for the machines with good hardware documentation. The 4x series machines have a console processor is a HP proprietary microcontroller unlike those that came out of Fort Collins. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 14 17:37:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 16:37:30 -0700 Subject: HP-3000 (was: HP HP-2117F on ebay) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 14 Dec 2006 18:21:13 -0500. <01C71FAC.A3CA2B40@MAGGIE> Message-ID: In article <01C71FAC.A3CA2B40 at MAGGIE>, Steve Robertson writes: > I have a 3000/37 that I run on occasion. I did have a /42 before my big = > move last year. I didn't have enough room so, I had to let it go.=20 So, the HP-3000 was the machine that taught me programming when I was 13 in the dusty deck year of 1978. I don't know any of the details of what model it was (but I can ask some old timers from then who are still around), but I remember that it ran HP time sharing with BASIC and that I taught myself BASIC by running the TUT01 through TUT25 tutorial programs from their system library. Can anyone pin down which OS that would have been? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Thu Dec 14 18:01:18 2006 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 00:01:18 +0000 Subject: HP-3000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4581E5CE.6060303@retrobbs.org> Thank you to the person who provided the information about the mac analog board. I decided it was easier to pick up that SE for ?5 and keep the classic ii for parts for now. Does anyone know of a source of old classic mac parts? Ebay has very little (that I can find) and I've been searching on google for a while now... Thanks, Mark -- Take a letter to God. "Dear Sir: I'm dissatisfied." Well it ain't your fault they keep pouring salt on my heart. -Old 97s From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Dec 14 18:12:37 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 19:12:37 -0500 Subject: HP-3000 References: <4581E5CE.6060303@retrobbs.org> Message-ID: <009501c71fdd$bb3821c0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Firestone" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 7:01 PM Subject: Re: HP-3000 > Thank you to the person who provided the information about the mac > analog board. > > I decided it was easier to pick up that SE for ?5 and keep the classic > ii for parts for now. Does anyone know of a source of old classic mac > parts? Ebay has very little (that I can find) and I've been searching > on google for a while now... > > Thanks, > > Mark > > > > -- > Take a letter to God. "Dear Sir: I'm dissatisfied." > Well it ain't your fault they keep pouring salt on my heart. > > -Old 97s Google group LEMswap is a great place for WTB and WTS (only Mac items and I believe there are a few people in the UK there). From rcini at optonline.net Thu Dec 14 19:51:07 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 20:51:07 -0500 Subject: Classiccmp sign-ups In-Reply-To: <015801c71f0f$0bad0f50$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <005601c71feb$7d18a050$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Jay: A friend of mine signed-up with ClassicCmp about three weeks ago but hasn't seen any traffic. I don't know what email address he would have used but his name is Grant Stockly. Is there a way to see if his subscription to Talk was activated? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From rcini at optonline.net Thu Dec 14 19:58:03 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 20:58:03 -0500 Subject: Classiccmp sign-ups In-Reply-To: <005601c71feb$7d18a050$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <005801c71fec$74cf6400$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Oops...that was meant for Jay directly. Time to enable the bozofilter :-) Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 8:51 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' Subject: Classiccmp sign-ups Jay: A friend of mine signed-up with ClassicCmp about three weeks ago but hasn't seen any traffic. I don't know what email address he would have used but his name is Grant Stockly. Is there a way to see if his subscription to Talk was activated? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From useddec at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 21:12:25 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 21:12:25 -0600 Subject: RL02's Q-bus items and Digidata tape drive Message-ID: <624966d60612141912p3432812dw734a66e226aae2a9@mail.gmail.com> I have a client trying to sell me approx 6 working RL02 drives, a variety of Q-bus items, and a Digidata tape drive. I do not want to sit on the drives, if you have any interest please contact me off list. I need to let them know by Friday afternoon. Drives can be palletized and shipped or picked up in the midwest. Thanks Paul 217-586-5361 From ken at seefried.com Thu Dec 14 21:30:50 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 22:30:50 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: <200612150153.kBF1rJRT061387@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612150153.kBF1rJRT061387@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061215033050.8872.qmail@seefried.com> From: Gene Ehrich >>With 12338 positives? Thats a 99.1 percent approval rating. >>Quite respectable. > >If 108 people are unhappy enough to leave a negative I dont care what >the percentages are he's a crook So you're bad at human nature as well as math. From grant at stockly.com Fri Dec 15 01:41:58 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 22:41:58 -0900 Subject: Introduction! Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061214221249.0161f590@pop.1and1.com> I thought I'd introduce myself. I'm Grant from Alaska. :) Any other Alaskan's in here? I'm new to the group, still a little new to "real" classic computers. I'm the http://www.altairkit.com guy. I really started getting into them back in 2004 when I wanted to build a computer kit. I'd watched movies like "Pirates of Silicon Valley", read a Bill Gates biography, built a few kits like a Veronica PLL/stereo coder, but it still wasn't enough. I wanted to build a computer. Someone I knew harassed me in a friendly way that all I was doing was assembling one from a bag of parts. But it still meant something to me. I started with the idea of using a Macintosh 128k as a building block. I decapped a few of the PALs to read out the fusemap, but gave up the project after reading about Apple going after people for providing copies of System 1.0-5.0 on their web sites. I then started on the Apple-1. I worked on and off on that, until January 2006 when I found that a guy named Steve Gabaly beat me to it. I was able to quickly give up the idea and move onto an Altair - AND buy his Apple-1 kit. : ) What would make the Altair easier is actually being able to buy and hold a working machine in my hands. I didn't have access to an Apple-1 except for some high resolution PCB scans. I'm going to copy and paste a part of my web page into here for the sake of indexing robots. If 50 years from now my web site is down someone might want the full story. ;) See the link below for the story wtih pictues, otherwise look for the =========s for my intruduction to resume! : ) http://www.altairkit.com/creation_of_a_kit_story.html -------------------------- So an Apple I kit is out of the question, it's been done! My next favorite computer is the Altair, and it is actually obtainable! I found an Altair for sale with quite a few extra memory and I/O boards. It was in fairly good condition and had a few manuals, so I was happy. The D0 switch didn't work so I couldn't actually toggle in any programs, and in fact I never fixed that switch before completely disassembling the entire computer! The best part about the Altair that I had just bought was that it had been used by ARP Instruments as part of an experimental computerized music synthesis project. Included with it was a bunch of documentation on synth control, some disks containing the code, and some custom interface cards. I love time capsules, but the ARP story is for another day... http://www.altairkit.com/images/061118-ARP_unpacked_2597.jpg The ARP Instruments Altair - its alive...sort of... I began the project not wanting to "destroy" my Altair. I had after all paid a lot of money for it! Todd Fischer replied to me in an e-mail "One flag comes up that suggests that you're not as committed to this idea as you seem. When you write "I'm not interested in the project enough to buy a perfectly working Altair just to desolder all of the parts!", it tells me that you are limited in your intent.". I stuck to the idea of not desoldering the Altair for a good 5 months! In the mean time I had sent away some pictures of the CPU board to several companies that offered "Raw PCB to Gerber" conversion. That is where a raw PCB is placed on a calibrated high resolution scanner. With the aide of a human, the computer recreates the copper, drill, silkscreen, and solder mask (if present) Gerber cad files. I received responses that ranged from $200 to $1300. Since that was JUST for the CPU card and I had quite a few that needed to be reproduced, I decided to try "scanning" myself. I attempted to do this quite a few times using different software packages. Just to show you how hard I tried to avoid disassembling my original Altair boards... Since I work for a company that produces digital x-ray equipment, it was easy to get x-rays of the MITS boards. I actually scanned the bottom of the board, made that layer of the board translucent, and then overlayed the x-ray. This looked pretty good, but it is a LOT of work to "scan" a board by "tracing" the traces! It was pretty neat being able to see the traces that were underneath the ICs...even the traces under the dies! Quality is important to me, and I wanted boards that were as close to the original MITS boards as possible. I finally decided to turn to the PCB scanning outfits... http://www.altairkit.com/images/061118-Altair_8800_CPU_BD_Rev0-Composite.jpg The scanned/x-ray composite Altair CPU board. This is a scaled version. The file I was using was 300dpi. In the end, I decided to use Mile High Testing Services to scan my boards. They were second to the cheapest and their web page made me feel confident. (If you contact them, tell Steven that Grant says "Hi"!) This involved me desoldering every single part off of the boards and then cleaning off all the solder/flux. See a pattern here? Someone gives me good advice and I try to take a different direction. ;) Advice from Steve Gabaly, creator of the Apple 1 kit, went like this "...if I were going to make an Altair I'd have the boards reproduced by a PCB scanning service and get a perfect set of boards in a few weeks with no hassle..." It wasn't QUITE "no hassle" because of the poor quality silkscreen on the original MITS boards. After spending an average of 10 hours on each PCB cleaning up and restoring the silkscreen, my cad screen looked something like this: http://www.altairkit.com/images/061118-CPUBD_Gerber.jpg The Altair CPU board Gerber file including my solder mask layer, the fonts don't seem to render very well on screen... I went through each PCB with a fine tooth comb. I repositioned all of the silkscreen elements to where I thought the original intent would have been. I also created a solder mask for the PCBs to improve appearance and to make it easier to assemble. Here are some sample before and after pictures of the 1k memory card. These don't show the worst cases, but are still good comparisons. http://www.altairkit.com/images/061007-2-88-1MCS_Right.jpg MITS board on the left and reproduction board on the right The MITS silkscreen was used where ever possible. Sometimes I had to copy and paste letters/numbers from other parts of the board. Quite a few times the first letter was on top of a pad, etc. I also shrunk the symbols so they would fit between the pads. The arrows now point to pin one instead of being on top of pin 2, etc... Before I found Imagineering Inc (they have inexpensive boards!) I avoided getting PCBs with a solder mask/silkscreen manufactured until the design was proven. There is the chance that the scan could have an error. So a prototype Altair was made using copper only boards. Here are a few pictures of the prototype: =============================== That is where I stop the kit story for this post. There IS more on the website if you're interested. So, in the end, what did I get? I WAS ABLE TO MAKE MY KIT!!!!!!!!!! : ) Of course, I had to MAKE the kit first... ; ) http://www.altairkit.com/images/061119-completed_altair_1974.jpg I'm working on a few other vintage computer related projects. I hope that I am able to provide other people with the same experience. : ) Hobby electronics kits like this won't last forever, especially these old ones with all of the old discontinued parts. Enjoy while it lasts! Grant From grant at stockly.com Fri Dec 15 01:53:53 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 22:53:53 -0900 Subject: Response to Hey, a new Altair kit ?? Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061214224353.01476fc0@pop.1and1.com> Thanks for all of the comments guys. :) I had hard time getting on here or I would have responded sooner. :) I'm glad that people who wrote about it seemed to like it. I have ordered parts for 20 and will be selling them again for a reduced price (compared to the ebay auctions). I'm looking forward to making other kits of other systems. I also have a few original projects, like a 19,008 LED bit mapped display. Blinkin' light Pong anyone? >The outside looks very cool and pretty accurate, though I'm not >entirely sure if the number of connector punchouts on the rear panel >is correct.. The case is mechanically identical. The rear panel is the same as my 221846K (that Altair was used as the source for the kit). I didn't even know what the two 1/4" holes under the DB25s were for until after I had received the first case. In fact, I didn't even remember noticing them! They are for the cassette interface. :) >But the solder-masked boards are wrong, at least for >the vintage Altair that I own(no masking, just tinned traces). I thought this too, and did it to make mine different...however I recently saw an 8800 on ebay with a green mask! It might have been a rev1 or even rev2 board. The source boards did not have a solder mask. I made the mask because I thought it was an improvement (and because it makes things a little different). >OTOH, the crappy stranded white wire to connect the CPU board to the >front panel is a nice "authentic" touch. I envied the guys with >Imsai boxes... Thats part of the experience that you're paying for when you get the kit! ;) Grant From sdc695 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 14 14:58:12 2006 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 12:58:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested Message-ID: <20061214205812.41465.qmail@web60819.mail.yahoo.com> The growing problem with SPAM, etc.. It was noted in one of the trade publications I looked at that a very effective check on SPAM was to confirm that the stream opened up to you (on your port 25) actually did a "conversation" with the remote player. It seems that the 'bots just open up port 25 and send (spew), and ignore the responses. Kinda like 'typeahead'. If you can sense this, it quashes some stuff (so I've been told). Another tact might be to see if the sender HAS a port 25 on their machine. I suspect that the 'bot machines don't. Just a couple of ideas. Unfortunately fixes like these require a deep diving into the SMTP mailer at the code level. ob. on topic.. Sendmail is over 10 years old (maybe that is the problem!) -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Have a burning question? Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know. From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Dec 14 15:47:01 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 21:47:01 +0000 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20061214162747.0602ec50@yahoo.com> References: <7.0.1.0.2.20061214080047.014e0200@yahoo.com> <7.0.1.0.2.20061214162747.0602ec50@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4581C655.1040001@gjcp.net> Gene Ehrich wrote: > At 10:08 AM 12/14/2006 William Donzelli wrote: >>> I note that the seller has 108 negatives. Would never purchase >>> anything from someone with so many negatives >> >> With 12338 positives? Thats a 99.1 percent approval rating. Quite >> respectable. > > If 108 people are unhappy enough to leave a negative I dont care what > the percentages are he's a crook Uh-huh. Maybe you should *read* some of the negatives - things like people bitching about how they can't use a camcorder they bought because no battery or leads were supplied - even though it states this quite clearly on the ad. Or the guy who seems to speak no English and has left negative feedback for all the two dozen sellers he's bought from... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Dec 14 15:55:42 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 21:55:42 +0000 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <00a901c71f00$e6fba120$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <00a901c71f00$e6fba120$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4581C85E.6060403@gjcp.net> Jay West wrote: > advertisement is a graphic attachment. Since SpamAssassin can't do OCR > on the small gif or jpg attachment that says "buy viagra here"... I am > not sure what to do about this. It comes from all over, not just a few > servers, etc. http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/OcrPlugin Gordon From robertb3 at tradewindscientific.com Thu Dec 14 15:55:35 2006 From: robertb3 at tradewindscientific.com (B.Robert) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 13:55:35 -0800 Subject: Looking for HP inverse assemblers for HP1631D Message-ID: <4581C857.5050305@tradewindscientific.com> Hi there, Been lurking (and learning) for a few week here. Lots of interesting topics for sure. Do any of you have inverse assemblers for the HP1631D logic analyzer ? Specifically, I am looking for the files that go with the 10342B interface (RS232/422 and HPIB capable) but I'd also be interested in inverse assemblers for any CPU. BTW, the 1631D is connected to my PC using an HP disk drive emulator written by a fella from the Yahoo HP group. The files are therefore loaded and saved right from my PC via HPIB. The code is pretty new but already functional. This meant reverse engineering the CRC being sent from the original HP driver over the HPIB link - no small job in itself. Regards to all, Benoit Robert From Lee.Courtney at windriver.com Thu Dec 14 16:04:51 2006 From: Lee.Courtney at windriver.com (Courtney, Lee) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:04:51 -0800 Subject: HP-3000 (was: HP HP-2117F on ebay) Message-ID: <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1F95@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com> 3000 Series 40, and early 1980s Micro3000XL. Lee C. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 10:08 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: HP-3000 (was: HP HP-2117F on ebay) > > > Speaking of old HP minis, does anyone have an HP-3000 in > their collection? Not the newer ones, but the ones from the > mid to late 70s. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available > for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 15 02:42:53 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 01:42:53 -0700 Subject: Basic/Four Corporation Model 7250 terminal Message-ID: Does anyone have experience with this company's stuff? I just got an odd terminal recently. "Collectible Microcomputers" doesn't have an entry for Basic/Four Corporation, but I did find a little information out and about on the net saying that they made a CP/M system with a business basic. Some photos of the terminal are here: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Dec 15 03:44:59 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 06:44:59 -0300 Subject: Looking for HP inverse assemblers for HP1631D References: <4581C857.5050305@tradewindscientific.com> Message-ID: <073201c7202d$c45b3f80$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Do any of you have inverse assemblers for the HP1631D > logic analyzer ? Specifically, I am looking for the files that > go with the 10342B interface (RS232/422 and HPIB capable) > but I'd also be interested in inverse assemblers for any CPU. I'm with you, Benoit, but for the 1662A. BTW, if someone has a broken 1660 with hard disk, I'd mostly interested in parts. I want to "upgrade" my 1662 to something with hard disk and/or scope functions, it is just a matter of changing the boards inside. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 15 02:49:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 01:49:57 -0700 Subject: HP-3000 (was: HP HP-2117F on ebay) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:04:51 -0800. <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1F95@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com> Message-ID: In article <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1F95 at ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com>, "Courtney, Lee" writes: > 3000 Series 40, and early 1980s Micro3000XL. It seems there were a *lot* of models in the HP-3000 line. Is there any sort of comprehensive guide to which came out when and what were the differences between models? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Dec 15 03:53:37 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 06:53:37 -0300 Subject: Introduction! References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061214221249.0161f590@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <075d01c7202e$ea2de810$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I'm new to the group, still a little new to "real" classic computers. I'm > the http://www.altairkit.com guy. Hey Grant, congratulations for a great work! ;oD Greetings from Brazil, Alexandre Souza http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Dec 15 03:31:30 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 01:31:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <20061214205812.41465.qmail@web60819.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061214205812.41465.qmail@web60819.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Dec 2006, Tom Watson wrote: > Unfortunately fixes like these require a deep diving into the SMTP mailer at > the code level. > > ob. on topic.. Sendmail is over 10 years old (maybe that is the problem!) I prefer Exim because of Sendmail's bitrot. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cc at corti-net.de Fri Dec 15 04:30:32 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:30:32 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay In-Reply-To: <00a201c71faf$515f33c0$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org><013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING> <00a201c71faf$515f33c0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: [ Note to those who don't understand all the terms: FAB: Firmware Accessory Board FEM: Firmware Expansion Module DCPC: Dual Channel Port Controller TBG: Time Base Generator WCS: Writable Control Store SIS: Scientific Instruction Set VIS: Vector Instruction Set DMI: Dynamic Mapping Instuctions FFP: Fast Fortran Processor FPP: Floating Point Processor ] On Thu, 14 Dec 2006, Jay West wrote: > I doubt that seriously. I'd like to see how you could put a FAB board in an > I/O slot ;) I was wrong, yes. I was thinking of the FEM. It was suggested by HP to use a FEM board in slot 10 instead of the FAB on the CPU board to easily access the firmware ROMS. > A wild guess - this system had vendor supplied proprietary microcode on the > FEM that was in slot 10. When the system was decomissioned, the licensed > firmware board (the whole FEM) was yanked. The F microcode is likely on the > FAB underneath. Not sure. The Base Set microcode can be either on the CPU board or on the FEM. My machines have the Base Set on the FEM, as it was recommended ([1] 13-3). But maybe slot 10 contained a WCS board. > More to the point... note that a FAB (and FEM) was optional on the E series. > On the F series, the FAB was required but the FEM was optional. Why? See > above. No, the FEM was standard on both E and F series ([1], section 2-1). BTW the FAB has the lowest priority in the firmware chain, lower than the firmware on the CPU board. > and likely is. See that shielded ribbon connector on the back left? That's > connecting the cpu to the FAB board underneath (as well as a dangling end for > what was probably a FEM board in slot 10). So I bet ya a lunch that the F > firmware is whats on the FAB underneath. Maybe, but maybe it's empty and the ROMs were on the FEM. According to [1] section 8-3, the standard SIS was installed on the FEM, so no FEM, no SIS. But no FEM, no DMI/FFP (standard on 1000F, [1] section 7), no VIS, no DMS, no RTE4/RTE-VI, ... But [2] sections 2-23 to 2-34 are contradicting [1] ... I only know what I know, that my machines have their ROMs on the FEM. > Again, Im not an expert on the F series. But the 2111F doesn't have an > external FP processor does it? Just the 2117F does? Both are certainly F > series. Only if they have the firmware and FPP that converts an E series to an F series. If not, it's just the frontpanel with an F instead of an E... The 2111F has the FPP built internally over the power supply and memory/IO card cages ([2] figure 1-2). But anyway, a fully loaded 1000F is a *very* nice machine to play with. It's a nice number cruncher. Christian [1] HP 1000 M/E/F-Series Firmware Installation and Reference Manual [2] HP 1000 F-Series Computer Installation and Service Manual From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Dec 15 06:59:35 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 07:59:35 -0500 Subject: Basic/Four Corporation Model 7250 terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200612151205.kBFC5291006015@hosting.monisys.ca> > Does anyone have experience with this company's stuff? > > I just got an odd terminal recently. "Collectible Microcomputers" > doesn't have an entry for Basic/Four Corporation, but I did find a > little information out and about on the net saying that they made a > CP/M system with a business basic. Indeed they did - I have the MAI Basic/Four S10 system on my web page of you are interested in seeing one. Look under "Non-S100 - CP/M" (send group I believe). Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Dec 15 06:22:49 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 07:22:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP-3000 (was: HP HP-2117F on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, Richard wrote: > It seems there were a *lot* of models in the HP-3000 line. Is there > any sort of comprehensive guide to which came out when and what were > the differences between models? Not so much a comprehensive guide, but check the HP Computer Museum site: http://www.hpmuseum.net/ They have pictures, specs and some manuals online for not only the HP-3000 series, but earlier HP-1000 and smaller systems and peripherals. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Fri Dec 15 09:24:11 2006 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 09:24:11 -0600 Subject: bus/tag channels (Was: IBM 3725 Communications Controller) In-Reply-To: <4580BD45.9030807@msm.umr.edu> References: <4580BD45.9030807@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20061215152411.GA32189@RawFedDogs.net> On Wed, Dec 13, 2006 at 06:56:05PM -0800, jim stephens wrote: > Also it probably is attached via channels, as evidenced by the cable block > on the lower picture, which makes it a bit of a white elephant in todays > data centers, which have moved to ESCON for the most part. The current mainframe in the shop I work in has mostly FICON channels. There's a few ESCON cards in there also. Believe it or not we still have some bus/tag channel attached 3274s, 3174s, not to mention a 6262 printer that's bus/tag. Bus/tag channels were not an option with our current mainframe so we had to get some bus/tag converters. I think the bus/tag converters are attached to ESCON channels. The 3274s and 3174s are definitely on their way out. We just replaced the last of the printers they were supporting. Yes, until recently we still had several 4224 printers in service. Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Dec 15 09:06:01 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:06:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <20061214205812.41465.qmail@web60819.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061214205812.41465.qmail@web60819.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200612151525.KAA02834@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > It was noted in one of the trade publications I looked at that a very > effective check on SPAM was to confirm that the stream opened up to > you (on your port 25) actually did a "conversation" with the remote > player. I wouldn't call this "very effective". It helps, but not all that much - unless you combine it with banner delay or DATA delay, at which point I think "very effective" does become accurate. > Another [tack] might be to see if the sender HAS a port 25 on their > machine. I suspect that the 'bot machines don't. Right - but neither do the outgoing mailhosts of large senders, large enough to have divorced incoming functionality from outgoing functionality. > Unfortunately fixes like these require a deep diving into the SMTP > mailer at the code level. Yes and no. If you want to implement them in your MTA proper, yes - though some of the more modern MTAs already have such support present. But you don't *have* to do it there. I wrote a "shim" program that accepts incoming SMTP connection and passes them on to the real MTA when it gets a valid RCPT. It was designed to turn away bogus RCPTs very very cheaply (and it works spectacularly well for that[%]), but it also does banner delay, DATA delay, and early talker rejection. (Because it connects through to a real MTA in real time, it avoids the worst of the hairy issues that plague MTAs, like queueing and retries.) I wrote this for work, but they've given me approval to release it (I asked preemptively); I can put it up for FTP if there's any interest. [%] We once had a host from Korea or Taiwan or some such place open up some two hundred parallel connections and start a dumb-as-rocks dictionary attack. We turned away some 10-20 thousand bogus RCPTs in about seven seconds - and never noticed; we had no idea it happened at all until I stumbled across it when reading logs for other reasons. Even knowing exactly when it was, I couldn't find the blip in the load average data we collect. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Dec 15 09:40:07 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:40:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <200612151525.KAA02834@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20061214205812.41465.qmail@web60819.mail.yahoo.com> <200612151525.KAA02834@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: > It was noted in one of the trade publications I looked at that a very > effective check on SPAM was to confirm that the stream opened up to > you (on your port 25) actually did a "conversation" with the remote > player. Something I've been experimenting with on one of my SMTP servers is "greylisting", as implemented in a sendmail milter: http://hcpnet.free.fr/milter-greylist/ On my system, it blocks over 95% of SPAM delivery attempts. Most of the SPAMbots I've seen attempting to deliver a message don't wait around for a reply and simply disconnect when they get the temporary reject code. Those that do often attempt to deliver the next message with a different "from" address, which starts a new delay timer. I've also enabled it's DNSRBL feature, with the SORBS list. Anything that is listed in SORBS gets a longer delay. I can't say how well it scales on a busy system, but it's a valid concept. I passed this on to Jay in a private message. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 15 09:43:45 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 07:43:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <200612151525.KAA02834@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from der Mouse at "Dec 15, 6 10:06:01 am" Message-ID: <200612151543.kBFFhjMD023006@floodgap.com> > I wrote a "shim" program that accepts incoming SMTP connection and > passes them on to the real MTA when it gets a valid RCPT. It was > designed to turn away bogus RCPTs very very cheaply (and it works > spectacularly well for that[%]), but it also does banner delay, DATA > delay, and early talker rejection. (Because it connects through to a > real MTA in real time, it avoids the worst of the hairy issues that > plague MTAs, like queueing and retries.) > > I wrote this for work, but they've given me approval to release it (I > asked preemptively); I can put it up for FTP if there's any interest. I would, for one, be quite interested in your implementation. I have greet_pause implemented in sendmail, and some fairly draconian custom rules, but it needs all the help it can get. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- So what's my point? I don't know, it's fun to talk about. -- Judy Blackburn From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 09:51:25 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:51:25 -0500 Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <200612151543.kBFFhjMD023006@floodgap.com> References: <200612151543.kBFFhjMD023006@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4582C47D.3070809@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I wrote a "shim" program that accepts incoming SMTP connection and >> passes them on to the real MTA when it gets a valid RCPT. It was >> designed to turn away bogus RCPTs very very cheaply (and it works >> spectacularly well for that[%]), but it also does banner delay, DATA >> delay, and early talker rejection. (Because it connects through to a >> real MTA in real time, it avoids the worst of the hairy issues that >> plague MTAs, like queueing and retries.) >> >> I wrote this for work, but they've given me approval to release it (I >> asked preemptively); I can put it up for FTP if there's any interest. > > I would, for one, be quite interested in your implementation. I have > greet_pause implemented in sendmail, and some fairly draconian custom > rules, but it needs all the help it can get. Me too! Peace... Sridhar From ksr at krother.com Fri Dec 15 09:56:53 2006 From: ksr at krother.com (Ken Rother) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:56:53 -0500 Subject: Looking for HP inverse assemblers for HP1631D References: <4581C857.5050305@tradewindscientific.com> Message-ID: <0a7101c72061$a4f366c0$0401a8c0@KSRPC> Would it possible to post a link about the HP Disk emulator software. I have a 1631A and have been looking for a cost effective storage solution. I am also looking for a cost effective printing solution but I might just buy a HPIB printer for that. Also which Yahoo HP group are you referring to? Sorry for all the question Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: "B.Robert" To: Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 4:55 PM Subject: Looking for HP inverse assemblers for HP1631D > Hi there, > > Been lurking (and learning) for a few week here. > Lots of interesting topics for sure. > > Do any of you have inverse assemblers for the HP1631D > logic analyzer ? Specifically, I am looking for the files that > go with the 10342B interface (RS232/422 and HPIB capable) > but I'd also be interested in inverse assemblers for any CPU. > > BTW, the 1631D is connected to my PC using an HP disk drive > emulator written by a fella from the Yahoo HP group. The files > are therefore loaded and saved right from my PC via HPIB. The code > is pretty new but already functional. This meant reverse engineering > the CRC being sent from the original HP driver over the HPIB link - no > small job in itself. > > Regards to all, > Benoit Robert > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 15 10:17:25 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:17:25 -0600 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org><013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING><00a201c71faf$515f33c0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <00c701c72064$835ee040$6500a8c0@BILLING> Christian wrote... > Not sure. The Base Set microcode can be either on the CPU board or on the > FEM. It is quite possible that the base set is on the cpu board and the rest is on the fab, making it "complete". But it is also possible that some of the required F firmware was on a FEM in slot 10. Or it could have been user or vendor microcode on a FEM in slot 10. Or some I/O card even, as I've seen systems with no FEM where they used a 3 connector shielded ribbon cable even though they only had a FAB, just cause it's the only cable they had apparently. Of course, it is also possible that there is no base set at all and someone wrote a custom base set for process control. That's the beauty of the box, everything was changeable including the base set. All I was saying is that since there is nothing in slot 10, and there IS a dangling ribbon cable there, it is likely (although not certain) that some firmware is missing. I think we can agree that is a reasonable postulation. Whether the FEM being missing means it is not an F is debatable apparently, but I was under the impression the base set could be on the cpu board and all the rest on the FAB. No FEM required. > No, the FEM was standard on both E and F series ([1], section 2-1). Apparently HP documentation is at odds then. See the HP 1000 M/E/F series computers technical reference handbook, part number 5955-0282, appendix A, pages A-3 and A-4. It's quite clear there that the FAB was optional on the E and standard on the F (and ostensibly standard because it was necessary to house the larger microcode set). > BTW the FAB has the lowest priority in the firmware chain, lower than the > firmware on the CPU board. Isn't that priority in the sense of pecking order for entry points, not in the sense of any type of execution priority? > Maybe, but maybe it's empty and the ROMs were on the FEM. That is certainly possible, hence my comment. > I only know what I know, that my machines have their ROMs on the FEM. Ditto for me... that my machines have their roms on the FAB. > But anyway, a fully loaded 1000F is a *very* nice machine to play with. > It's a nice number cruncher. I've noticed my E's beat the pants off my 2100A/S machines - the specs say approximately twice as fast. But I still love the front panel appeal of the 2100 over the 21MX any day :) It's easier to enter programs with and it certainly has more blinkylights :) Jay From A.MacDonald+classiccmp at slitesys.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 15 10:27:02 2006 From: A.MacDonald+classiccmp at slitesys.demon.co.uk (Alistair MacDonald) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 16:27:02 +0000 Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: References: <20061214205812.41465.qmail@web60819.mail.yahoo.com> <200612151525.KAA02834@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4582CCD6.9010303@slitesys.demon.co.uk> Mike Loewen wrote: >> It was noted in one of the trade publications I looked at that a very >> effective check on SPAM was to confirm that the stream opened up to >> you (on your port 25) actually did a "conversation" with the remote >> player. > > Something I've been experimenting with on one of my SMTP servers is > "greylisting", as implemented in a sendmail milter: [...] > On my system, it blocks over 95% of SPAM delivery attempts. Most of > the SPAMbots I've seen attempting to deliver a message don't wait around > for a reply and simply disconnect when they get the temporary reject > code. [...] The problem, as mentioned in a few places online, is that it increases the burden of sending a (legitimate) email as it spends more time on the outgoing mail server being repeatedly sent -- I'm not aware of any system where the rejection message is parsed and then used to insert the correct retry delay. For the big boys this would massively increase the amount of work their servers would have to do. I experimented with greylisting on my servers which handle email for clients. It worked *extremely* well, but I still had to turn it off after about 3 days. We found that customers where failing to get email from people at big ISPs because their systems would not retry the mails (or didn't do enough retry attempts to pass the 1hr barrier.) Whilst many people might feel that dropping all emails from AOL[1] is a good thing my customers didn't seem to agree ... It might be possible to use in conjunction with other tools, or by skipping it for the set of ISPs that can't/won't accept being greylisted, but it really shouldn't be used at the primary filter level. Alistair [1] AOL wasn't the only one, but it was the most complained about one. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 15 10:33:46 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:33:46 -0600 Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested References: <20061214205812.41465.qmail@web60819.mail.yahoo.com><200612151525.KAA02834@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <00f501c72066$cc369270$6500a8c0@BILLING> It was written... > Something I've been experimenting with on one of my SMTP servers is > "greylisting", as implemented in a sendmail milter: Unfortunately most of our customers get really upset when an email doesn't arrive almost instantaneously. But moreover, believe it or not I've found a fair number of servers that take the temporary rejection as a permanent one and never try again. Customers won't accept this. Yes, I know it's easy to say in an ivory tower mentality "well, that's their fault", but in a business setting we don't have the luxury of the ivory tower. Der Mouse mentioned his Shim program... We already use something similar. It is a poor mans LDAP, where it allows the front ends to check any backend (based on mailertable) to see if it's a valid account at the RCPT stage. This blocks all of the spam coming in that is for unknown users in valid domains (which is around 80% of all the spam we get). It does so without wasting cpu cycles to scan or lookup anything on the bl lists. It also maintains it's own cache of positive and negative results so it doesn't have to keep bugging the backend (you can set the timeout for pos & neg results separately). It also gets rid of some of the overhead of building up and tearing down the tcp connection to the back end host by attempting to utilize already open sessions. The product is milter-ahead, put out by snert software (snertsoft.com I believe). It costs about $99 for a site license. They have some other milter products which do what milter-ahead does and much more, but they are of course much more expensive. As far as bang-for-the-buck, to have my front ends know about valid backend mailboxes without Lightweight(not a chance)DAP, and reject well over 80% of the spam with no processing - I was quite happy with the purchase. Jay West From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Dec 15 10:32:41 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:32:41 -0600 Subject: Looking for HP inverse assemblers for HP1631D In-Reply-To: <4581C857.5050305@tradewindscientific.com> References: <4581C857.5050305@tradewindscientific.com> Message-ID: <4582CE29.9080100@ubanproductions.com> Hi Benoit, I have a 16500B analyzer and know that at some point the HD is going to be a problem, so I'm wondering if in your investigations with the 1631D if you ran across any solutions which would work for my machine? --tnx --tom B.Robert wrote: > Hi there, > > Been lurking (and learning) for a few week here. > Lots of interesting topics for sure. > > Do any of you have inverse assemblers for the HP1631D > logic analyzer ? Specifically, I am looking for the files that > go with the 10342B interface (RS232/422 and HPIB capable) > but I'd also be interested in inverse assemblers for any CPU. > > BTW, the 1631D is connected to my PC using an HP disk drive > emulator written by a fella from the Yahoo HP group. The files > are therefore loaded and saved right from my PC via HPIB. The code > is pretty new but already functional. This meant reverse engineering > the CRC being sent from the original HP driver over the HPIB link - no > small job in itself. > > Regards to all, > Benoit Robert > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 15 10:42:43 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:42:43 -0600 Subject: Looking for HP inverse assemblers for HP1631D References: <4581C857.5050305@tradewindscientific.com> <0a7101c72061$a4f366c0$0401a8c0@KSRPC> Message-ID: <000e01c72068$0dd15a20$6500a8c0@BILLING> B. Robert wrote... >> Do any of you have inverse assemblers for the HP1631D >> logic analyzer ? These are actually pretty frequently requested. If you don't get a response email me offlist, I know I have them on floppy and also on one of the PC's around here somewhere. >> BTW, the 1631D is connected to my PC using an HP disk drive >> emulator written by a fella from the Yahoo HP group. The files >> are therefore loaded and saved right from my PC via HPIB. The code >> is pretty new but already functional. This meant reverse engineering >> the CRC being sent from the original HP driver over the HPIB link - no >> small job in itself. Hey now that's cool. You have a link to that software?? Jay From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Fri Dec 15 04:23:57 2006 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:23:57 +0100 Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <20061214205812.41465.qmail@web60819.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061214205812.41465.qmail@web60819.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <458277BD.4020406@iais.fraunhofer.de> Tom Watson schrieb: > The growing problem with SPAM, etc.. > > It was noted in one of the trade publications I looked at that a very effective > check on SPAM was to confirm that the stream opened up to you (on your port 25) > actually did a "conversation" with the remote player. It seems that the 'bots > just open up port 25 and send (spew), and ignore the responses. Kinda like > 'typeahead'. If you can sense this, it quashes some stuff (so I've been told). > Another tact might be to see if the sender HAS a port 25 on their machine. I > suspect that the 'bot machines don't. > > Just a couple of ideas. > > Unfortunately fixes like these require a deep diving into the SMTP mailer at > the code level. > > ob. on topic.. Sendmail is over 10 years old (maybe that is the problem!) > > If you have sendmail, have a look at "milter-sender" (google for it) which intercepts the mail delivery conversation and checks for RFC compliance. No need to hack sendmail.cf or the source. Bots, as you correctly noted, do not care about correct SMTP dialogue. They will be filtered out by milter-sender. Also, it can be configured to also verify the incoming addresses at the remote MX (which is likely not the bot, thus it will discard such unauthorized sendings as well). I use it at our central mail gateway with good success, as the vast majority of valid mail severs meanwhile are RFC compliant. Holger From robertb3 at tradewindscientific.com Fri Dec 15 10:28:21 2006 From: robertb3 at tradewindscientific.com (B.Robert) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 08:28:21 -0800 Subject: Looking for HP inverse assemblers for HP1631D Message-ID: <4582CD25.4030704@tradewindscientific.com> Hi there, Been lurking (and learning) for a few weeks here. Lots of interesting topics for sure. Do any of you have inverse assemblers for the HP1631D logic analyzer ? Specifically, I am looking for the files that go with the 10342B interface (RS232/422 and HPIB capable) but I'd also be interested in inverse assemblers for any CPU. I have one to date. BTW, the 1631D is connected to my PC using an HP disk drive emulator written by a fella from the Yahoo HP group. The files are therefore loaded and saved right from my PC via HPIB. The code is pretty new but already functional. This meant reverse engineering the CRC being sent from the original HP driver over the HPIB link - no small job in itself. This is my second attempt at posting on the list - I apologize if this ends up being a duplicate post. Regards to all, Benoit Robert From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 15 11:33:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:33:30 -0700 Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:23:57 +0100. <458277BD.4020406@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: In article <458277BD.4020406 at iais.fraunhofer.de>, Holger Veit writes: > Bots, as you correctly noted, do not care about correct SMTP dialogue. Not yet. As soon as this starts to cramp their style, they will. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 15 11:25:21 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:25:21 -0700 Subject: Basic/Four Corporation Model 7250 terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 15 Dec 2006 07:59:35 -0500. <200612151205.kBFC5291006015@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: In article <200612151205.kBFC5291006015 at hosting.monisys.ca>, "Dave Dunfield" writes: > > Does anyone have experience with this company's stuff? > > > > I just got an odd terminal recently. "Collectible Microcomputers" > > doesn't have an entry for Basic/Four Corporation, but I did find a > > little information out and about on the net saying that they made a > > CP/M system with a business basic. > > Indeed they did - I have the MAI Basic/Four S10 system on my web > page of you are interested in seeing one. Look under > "Non-S100 - CP/M" (send group I believe). Yep, that's the puppy I saw on the net. However, this terminal looks older than that. It has a funky keyboard with weird keys labelled I, II, III, IV! I am not sure yet, but I think they are the function keys that later in time would have been named F1, F2, etc. That machine depicted on your web site also appears to have a more standard keyboard configuration than the terminal that I have. I'll have to grab a snapshot of its keyboard and post a picture for people to see, but that will have to wait until the machine gets its initial inspection completed (open up, check for dates, examine technology, look for wiggy caps, etc.). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 15 11:52:49 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:52:49 -0600 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org><013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING><00a201c71faf$515f33c0$6500a8c0@BILLING> <00c701c72064$835ee040$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <001501c72071$d74c8ce0$6500a8c0@BILLING> The plot thickens... A more definitive source than user manuals... is the HP1000 M/E/F-series computer engineering and reference documentation (92851-90001). According to the section "HP 1000 E and F-series computer central processing Unit (CPU) Theory of Operation" on page IA 4-33 "Note that in F-series computers a customer may elect to have a 12791A FEM board in lieu of the FAB." Note the use of the word "customer" and "may". This would certainly indicate that a FEM was not necessary in an F. This would suggest that a F was shipped with FAB and not FEM (which was optional) unless the customer wanted/needed more space for microcode. This also suggests that a valid F configuration is FAB only, or FEM only, or FAB & FEM. It also suggests that it would be fairly common for a user to buy the system with just FAB, and later (not from factory) add a FEM board when they needed more space to use in addition to OR in place of, the FAB. So it would appear our experiences both are correct. It seems the systems you have acquired were ordered with the FEM instead of FAB *option*. The systems I have acquired were ordered with the standard part, which got you a FAB and no FEM. But in any case, the determination from the engineering docs is, an F most certainly does not have to have a FEM - and a FEM is not standard/required. I agree that the user manuals seem to be contradictory on this subject. For example, the firmware installation manuals do in fact say that SIS can be installed in a FAB, it says this in the section on the FAB. But in the section on SIS, it mentions just the FEM I believe. Jay West From ken at seefried.com Fri Dec 15 12:41:11 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:41:11 -0500 Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help In-Reply-To: <200612151638.kBFGcSJj079213@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612151638.kBFGcSJj079213@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061215184111.25948.qmail@seefried.com> From: Tom Watson > > Another tact might be to see if the sender HAS a port 25 on their > machine. I suspect that the 'bot machines don't. > A number of very large mail providers split sending and receiving mail onto different groups of machines, so you can't count on the sender listening for mail. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 15 13:01:56 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 11:01:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <458277BD.4020406@iais.fraunhofer.de> from Holger Veit at "Dec 15, 6 11:23:57 am" Message-ID: <200612151901.kBFJ1u1E018554@floodgap.com> > Also, it can be configured > to also verify the incoming addresses at the remote MX (which is likely > not the bot, thus it will discard such unauthorized sendings as well). I > use it at our central mail gateway with good success, as the vast > majority of valid mail severs meanwhile are RFC compliant. I've been also being strict about forged hosts, i.e., when you do a reverse lookup on the IP, and then forward lookup the reverse PTR, the IP should be there. This has helped a lot, and doesn't impact the common situation where a host (usually a home static IP) has a legitimate domain, but its PTR is that of the network upstream (as long as that PTR resolves). -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Proponents of other opinions will be merrily beaten to a bloody pulp. ------ From spc at conman.org Fri Dec 15 13:37:31 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:37:31 -0500 Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <20061214205812.41465.qmail@web60819.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061214205812.41465.qmail@web60819.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061215193731.GA20482@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Tom Watson once stated: > > ob. on topic.. Sendmail is over 10 years old (maybe that is the problem!) Try 24 years---I think sendmail was originally written in 1982. -spc (Which explains some of its quirks ... ) From spc at conman.org Fri Dec 15 13:38:41 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:38:41 -0500 Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <4582C47D.3070809@gmail.com> References: <200612151543.kBFFhjMD023006@floodgap.com> <4582C47D.3070809@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061215193841.GB20482@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Sridhar Ayengar once stated: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > >>I wrote this for work, but they've given me approval to release it (I > >>asked preemptively); I can put it up for FTP if there's any interest. > > > >I would, for one, be quite interested in your implementation. I have > >greet_pause implemented in sendmail, and some fairly draconian custom > >rules, but it needs all the help it can get. > > Me too! Me three! -spc (Who works at a webhosting company, and still runs his own personal email server ... ) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Dec 15 13:43:32 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:43:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <200612151543.kBFFhjMD023006@floodgap.com> References: <200612151543.kBFFhjMD023006@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200612151945.OAA04776@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> I wrote >> I wrote a "shim" program [...] >> I wrote this for work, but they've given me approval to release it >> (I asked preemptively); I can put it up for FTP if there's any >> interest. I've seen five, I think it is, emails expressing interest (some on list, some off). I'll put it up for FTP. I'll try to get it done over the weekend; we'll see how that goes. I'll drop a note here when it's ready. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spc at conman.org Fri Dec 15 13:50:11 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:50:11 -0500 Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <4582CCD6.9010303@slitesys.demon.co.uk> References: <20061214205812.41465.qmail@web60819.mail.yahoo.com> <200612151525.KAA02834@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4582CCD6.9010303@slitesys.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061215195011.GC20482@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Alistair MacDonald once stated: > > I experimented with greylisting on my servers which handle email for > clients. It worked *extremely* well, but I still had to turn it off > after about 3 days. We found that customers where failing to get email > from people at big ISPs because their systems would not retry the mails > (or didn't do enough retry attempts to pass the 1hr barrier.) Whilst > many people might feel that dropping all emails from AOL[1] is a good > thing my customers didn't seem to agree ... I've noticed that about 40% of my spam (I run my own personal email server) comes in through my backup MX host (which has no user information and accepts *all* mail to my domain). Unrelated, a few months ago we got DoSed due to an interesting anti-spam technique [2] whereby the MX record for a domain we were trying to send bounce messages to was set to 127.0.0.1 (and therefore, the mail got requeued back into our system). I figured that if it was DoSing us, it might be used to DoS the spammers, so I tried it. [3] It worked okay, but I might be relunctant to put it into production use. I also thought that maybe using an MD5 hash on the body of a message would work, but that's way too easy for the spammers to get around. One other thing you might want to do (or enforce, if you are a webhosting company or ISP) is not allow catchalls. We're getting away from that as it causes us to get blacklisted by AOL and BellSouth (we're in Florida) on a regular basis. -spc (Perhaps the best thing would be to kill SMTP ... ) [1] Not my footnote. [2] http://boston.conman.org/2006/09/05.1 [3] http://boston.conman.org/2006/09/05.3 http://boston.conman.org/2006/09/07.2 From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Dec 15 14:06:55 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:06:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <20061215200655.DFB3F57E24@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Warren Wolfe > > > Information could be stored on any modern machine, loaded onto a memory > stick in a jiffy, and used to load up a copy of vital data for any In only 1/60th of a second?! That is pretty darn fast... 8-) Cheers, Bryan From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 15 14:08:53 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:08:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <20061215195011.GC20482@linus.groomlake.area51> from Sean Conner at "Dec 15, 6 02:50:11 pm" Message-ID: <200612152008.kBFK8rhk022322@floodgap.com> > [2] http://boston.conman.org/2006/09/05.1 Lol. You know that he's on this list, don't you? http://boston.conman.org/2006/12/13.1 -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Good-bye. I am leaving because I am bored. -- George Saunders' dying words - From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Fri Dec 15 14:11:48 2006 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles Fox) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:11:48 -0500 Subject: Basic/Four Corporation Model 7250 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061215201153.D15B726A@fep9.cogeco.net> At 12:25 PM 12/15/2006, you wrote: >In article <200612151205.kBFC5291006015 at hosting.monisys.ca>, > "Dave Dunfield" writes: > > > > Does anyone have experience with this company's stuff? > > > > > > I just got an odd terminal recently. "Collectible Microcomputers" > > > doesn't have an entry for Basic/Four Corporation, but I did find a > > > little information out and about on the net saying that they made a > > > CP/M system with a business basic. > > > > Indeed they did - I have the MAI Basic/Four S10 system on my web > > page of you are interested in seeing one. Look under > > "Non-S100 - CP/M" (send group I believe). > >Yep, that's the puppy I saw on the net. However, this terminal looks >older than that. It has a funky keyboard with weird keys labelled I, >II, III, IV! I am not sure yet, but I think they are the function >keys that later in time would have been named F1, F2, etc. That >machine depicted on your web site also appears to have a more standard >keyboard configuration than the terminal that I have. I'll have to >grab a snapshot of its keyboard and post a picture for people to see, >but that will have to wait until the machine gets its initial >inspection completed (open up, check for dates, examine technology, >look for wiggy caps, etc.). >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! If anyone has the urge to have eight more Basic /Four terminals, please let me know. Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor, Ontario 519-254-4991 N8Y 3J8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 15 14:10:01 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:10:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <20061215195011.GC20482@linus.groomlake.area51> from Sean Conner at "Dec 15, 6 02:50:11 pm" Message-ID: <200612152010.kBFKA1na009412@floodgap.com> > [2] http://boston.conman.org/2006/09/05.1 Oh, my gawd. Never mind. It's *your* blog! Well, I feel stupid now. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If I wanted your opinion, I'd have beaten it out of you. ------------------- From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 15 14:15:44 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:15:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <20061215195011.GC20482@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20061214205812.41465.qmail@web60819.mail.yahoo.com> <200612151525.KAA02834@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4582CCD6.9010303@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <20061215195011.GC20482@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, Sean Conner wrote: > -spc (Perhaps the best thing would be to kill SMTP ... ) I dunno...I think that allowing hunting/culling of spammers would be far more effective. -Toth From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 15 14:22:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:22:57 -0700 Subject: Basic/Four Corporation Model 7250 terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:11:48 -0500. <20061215201153.D15B726A@fep9.cogeco.net> Message-ID: In article <20061215201153.D15B726A at fep9.cogeco.net>, Charles Fox writes: > If anyone has the urge to have eight more Basic /Four > terminals, please let me know. Are they the same as the one depicted here? If so, do you have any docs on them? It'd be great to get the escape code sequences for this puppy to see if it has any "interesting" features. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Dec 15 14:29:30 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:29:30 -0500 Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested References: <20061214205812.41465.qmail@web60819.mail.yahoo.com> <200612151525.KAA02834@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4582CCD6.9010303@slitesys.demon.co.uk> <20061215195011.GC20482@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <008101c72087$ba656730$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 3:15 PM Subject: Re: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested > On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, Sean Conner wrote: > > > -spc (Perhaps the best thing would be to kill SMTP ... ) > > I dunno...I think that allowing hunting/culling of spammers would be far > more effective. > > -Toth I think most spammers are located overseas, so if you did hunt one getting a stuffed head through customs might be a little tricky. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Dec 15 14:37:05 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:37:05 -0800 Subject: Basic/Four Corporation Model 7250 terminal In-Reply-To: <20061215201153.D15B726A@fep9.cogeco.net> References: <20061215201153.D15B726A@fep9.cogeco.net> Message-ID: <45830771.2010708@msm.umr.edu> Charles Fox wrote: > At 12:25 PM 12/15/2006, you wrote: > > <>In article <200612151205.kBFC5291006015 at hosting.monisys.ca>, > "Dave Dunfield" writes: > > > > Does anyone have experience with this company's stuff? > > > <> >> >> >> Yep, that's the puppy I saw on the net. However, this terminal looks >> older than that. It has a funky keyboard with weird keys labelled I, >> II, III, IV! I am not sure yet, but I think they are the function >> keys that later in time would have been named F1, F2, etc. > I think that they were probably running their flavor of Basic on any stand alone system, and certainly the keys you refer to are for the basic 4 programming environment, and are their flavor of function keys. I will try to find a Basic 4 basic manual somewhere, if Al does not have one scanned and online already. Basic 4 / MAI's applications support was dedicated to programming in their basic environment and not any languages or execution environments in general use now. Pick also has its unique "virtual" and "assembly code" programming that it uses, but it has been ported to a lot of architectures since it was licensed, and Basic 4 never ported to any hardware it didn't build or approve of. They started out on Microdata 1600's and later their own clone of the 1600. Next was a custom 16 bit processor they built, and then onto several of the early microprocessors, though I don't recall which ones. They may well have built a small system like the one described based on the Z80 or some 8 bit cpu. I'll be interested in which processor this has. I'll try to contact some of my Basic 4 friends and see if any of the current bunch can identify this terminal and report back as well. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 15 14:42:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:42:15 -0700 Subject: Basic/Four Corporation Model 7250 terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 15 Dec 2006 12:37:05 -0800. <45830771.2010708@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: In article <45830771.2010708 at msm.umr.edu>, jim stephens writes: > I will try to find a Basic 4 basic manual somewhere, if Al does not > have one scanned and online already. Stupidly, I didn't think of that! I did find some docs in the mai folder, but they all relate to the "System 2000". The service manual doesn't mention this terminal, but does mention other peripherals like the disk drive and tape units. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Dec 15 15:11:00 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:11:00 -0800 Subject: Basic/Four Corporation Model 7250 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45830F64.1090204@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: > > >"System 2000". The service manual >doesn't mention this terminal, but does mention other peripherals like >the disk drive and tape units. > > The System 2000 is a 68010 with 1 1/2mb of memory max, looks like 8 users. This is one of the systems I recall they introduced early after they switched off of Microdata and their own mini type hardware. I know internally they played with the Z8000 as well, but I don't recall if they ever built any products around that cpu family. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 15 15:14:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:14:30 -0700 Subject: Basic/Four Corporation Model 7250 terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:11:00 -0800. <45830F64.1090204@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: Frankly, I was surprised they weren't mentioned in "Collectible Microcomputers", but I do recall someone on this list mentioning that the author had lots of stuff that was culled from that book (photos, computers, companies) because of space constraints. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 15 15:44:18 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:44:18 -0600 (CST) Subject: Terms ( was Re: HP HP-2117F on ebay ) Message-ID: <200612152144.kBFLiH1B074472@keith.ezwind.net> --- Christian Corti wrote: > [ > Note to those who don't understand all the terms: > FAB: Firmware Accessory Board > FEM: Firmware Expansion Module > DCPC: Dual Channel Port Controller > TBG: Time Base Generator > WCS: Writable Control Store > SIS: Scientific Instruction Set > VIS: Vector Instruction Set > DMI: Dynamic Mapping Instuctions > FFP: Fast Fortran Processor > FPP: Floating Point Processor > ] > Thanks. There are a few terms from other discussions that i don't know either, such as: BOG (no, not the toilet!) FGPA (I think that's right) If there isn't already a definitions/terms list on classiccmp.org could one be added? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 15 15:51:19 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:51:19 -0600 Subject: Terms References: <200612152144.kBFLiH1B074472@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <001701c72093$2a390610$6500a8c0@BILLING> Andrew wrote... > BOG (no, not the toilet!) Absolutely no clue. > FGPA (I think that's right) Probably FPGA, or Field Programmable Gate Array. Think of it as a prom that you can program to be a processor, not just data. > If there isn't already a definitions/terms list > on classiccmp.org could one be added? On first blush, I would think this untenable. There's just too many terms, and most are probably already there in places like wikipedia. But should we add one to the classiccmp website perhaps? I dunno... Jay From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Dec 15 15:58:10 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 16:58:10 -0500 Subject: Terms ( was Re: HP HP-2117F on ebay ) In-Reply-To: <200612152144.kBFLiH1B074472@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061215165414.05881a18@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk may have mentioned these words: >BOG (no, not the toilet!) Isn't that where you get the peat moss from to make Irish whiskey? I saw that on Modern Marvels: Distilleries. ;-) >FGPA (I think that's right) FPGA: Field Programmable Gate Array, a similar technology would be: CPLD: Complex Programmable Logic Array. All of the above are: IIRC. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 15 16:02:49 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 16:02:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: Terms Message-ID: <200612152202.kBFM2lAA075478@keith.ezwind.net> --- Jay West wrote: > Andrew wrote... > > BOG (no, not the toilet!) > Absolutely no clue. > > > FGPA (I think that's right) > Probably FPGA, or Field Programmable Gate Array. > Think of it as a prom that > you can program to be a processor, not just data. > Ahhh. > > If there isn't already a definitions/terms list > > on classiccmp.org could one be added? > On first blush, I would think this untenable. > There's just too many terms, > and most are probably already there in places like > wikipedia. But should we > add one to the classiccmp website perhaps? I > dunno... > > Jay > You are probably right. Just to clarify my idea, I was thinking of a table that would say list: FPGA = Field Programmable Gate Array After a quick view on the table someone could then go to Wikipedia, Google or some other search engine and search for: "Field Programmable Gate Array" which would produce alot more relevant results then just searching for: "FPGA" Anyone think it might be useful now?? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From spc at conman.org Fri Dec 15 16:02:42 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:02:42 -0500 Subject: Terms In-Reply-To: <001701c72093$2a390610$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <200612152144.kBFLiH1B074472@keith.ezwind.net> <001701c72093$2a390610$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <20061215220242.GD20482@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Jay West once stated: > Andrew wrote... > >BOG (no, not the toilet!) > Absolutely no clue. > > >FGPA (I think that's right) > Probably FPGA, or Field Programmable Gate Array. Think of it as a prom that > you can program to be a processor, not just data. > > >If there isn't already a definitions/terms list > >on classiccmp.org could one be added? > On first blush, I would think this untenable. There's just too many terms, > and most are probably already there in places like wikipedia. But should we > add one to the classiccmp website perhaps? I dunno... I use and there's also a plugin for the Firefox websearch field (the one that normally defaults to Google) for AcronymFinder. Pretty handy. -spc (Quite a few plugins for that search bar on Firefox) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 15 16:06:49 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:06:49 -0700 Subject: Terms In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 15 Dec 2006 16:02:49 -0600. <200612152202.kBFM2lAA075478@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In article <200612152202.kBFM2lAA075478 at keith.ezwind.net>, aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk writes: > You are probably right. Just to clarify my > idea, I was thinking of a table that would > say list: > > FPGA = Field Programmable Gate Array > > > After a quick view on the table someone > could then go to Wikipedia, Google or some > other search engine and search for: > > "Field Programmable Gate Array" > > which would produce alot more relevant results > then just searching for: > > "FPGA" Bad example; searching for FPGA on google gives me the wikipedia entry as the first link :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 15 16:07:59 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 15:07:59 -0700 Subject: Terms In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:02:42 -0500. <20061215220242.GD20482@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: In article <20061215220242.GD20482 at linus.groomlake.area51>, Sean Conner writes: > I use and there's also a plugin for the > Firefox websearch field (the one that normally defaults to Google) for > AcronymFinder. Pretty handy. IE7 will let you add your own search providers and I just added one for acronyms using that site. Pretty handy. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jhoger at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 16:19:23 2006 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John R.) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:19:23 -0800 Subject: Looking for HP inverse assemblers for HP1631D In-Reply-To: <4582CD25.4030704@tradewindscientific.com> References: <4582CD25.4030704@tradewindscientific.com> Message-ID: On 12/15/06, B.Robert wrote: > This is my second attempt at posting on the list - I apologize if this > ends up being a duplicate post. > > Regards to all, > Benoit Robert > We're seeing your post. Please post the link to the HPIB disk emulator. -- John. From jhoger at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 16:19:23 2006 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John R.) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 14:19:23 -0800 Subject: Looking for HP inverse assemblers for HP1631D In-Reply-To: <4582CD25.4030704@tradewindscientific.com> References: <4582CD25.4030704@tradewindscientific.com> Message-ID: On 12/15/06, B.Robert wrote: > This is my second attempt at posting on the list - I apologize if this > ends up being a duplicate post. > > Regards to all, > Benoit Robert > We're seeing your post. Please post the link to the HPIB disk emulator. -- John. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 15 18:06:10 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 00:06:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-3000 (was: HP HP-2117F on ebay) In-Reply-To: from "Mike Loewen" at Dec 15, 6 07:22:49 am Message-ID: > Not so much a comprehensive guide, but check the HP Computer Museum > site: > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/ > > They have pictures, specs and some manuals online for not only the > HP-3000 series, but earlier HP-1000 and smaller systems and peripherals. Let me 'second' the recomendation for that site. I'm interested in larger-than-handehld HPs (everyting from desktop calculators to 2100As), and that site is a great resource, full of user and service manuals, schematics, etc for the machines _and peripherals_. Certainly the first place I look when I want to see what some odd HP computer device was. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 15 18:15:51 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 00:15:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Terms In-Reply-To: <001701c72093$2a390610$6500a8c0@BILLING> from "Jay West" at Dec 15, 6 03:51:19 pm Message-ID: > > Andrew wrote... > > BOG (no, not the toilet!) > Absolutely no clue. Could it be BOT, which is Begining Of Tape (one of the sensors in a tape drive, the other being EOT (End Of Tape). Or SOG, neaning Sync On Green, refering to an analogue RGB video monitor where the gree nvideo signal is in fact composite video and includes the sync signal. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 15 18:23:48 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 17:23:48 -0700 Subject: HP-3000 (was: HP HP-2117F on ebay) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 16 Dec 2006 00:06:10 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > Not so much a comprehensive guide, but check the HP Computer Museum > > site: > > > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/ > > > > They have pictures, specs and some manuals online for not only the > > HP-3000 series, but earlier HP-1000 and smaller systems and peripherals. > > Let me 'second' the recomendation for that site. [...] Yep, lots of good stuff there. In IE7 you can setup a search provider so that you can search it directly in one click. Pretty handy. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From kelly at catcorner.org Fri Dec 15 18:36:08 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 19:36:08 -0500 Subject: Terms Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036225@MEOW.catcorner.org> > > Andrew wrote... > > > BOG (no, not the toilet!) > > Absolutely no clue. > > Isn't there an expression: Bog standard Which just means ordinary or stock configuration? Kelly From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 15 19:03:57 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 19:03:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: Terms Message-ID: <200612160103.kBG13v7L083429@keith.ezwind.net> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Andrew wrote... > > > BOG (no, not the toilet!) > > Absolutely no clue. > > Could it be BOT, which is Begining Of Tape (one of > the sensors in a tape > drive, the other being EOT (End Of Tape). > > Or SOG, neaning Sync On Green, refering to an > analogue RGB video monitor > where the gree nvideo signal is in fact composite > video and includes the > sync signal. > > -tony > Hmmm.... I could have mis-read "SOG" as "BOG", I guess. I have been rather tired lately. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 15 19:04:40 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 01:04:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-3000 (was: HP HP-2117F on ebay) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 15, 6 05:23:48 pm Message-ID: > > > Not so much a comprehensive guide, but check the HP Computer Museum > > > site: > > > > > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/ > > > > > > They have pictures, specs and some manuals online for not only the > > > HP-3000 series, but earlier HP-1000 and smaller systems and peripherals. > > > > Let me 'second' the recomendation for that site. [...] > > Yep, lots of good stuff there. In IE7 you can setup a search provider > so that you can search it directly in one click. Pretty handy. I find the easiest thing to do (particularly when a manual could be listed in one of serveral places) is to follow the 'documentation' link from the homepage and then to search that for anything that might be appropriate. You can 'waste' many enjoyable hours reading manuals for things you never knew existed :-) -tony From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 15 19:18:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 18:18:55 -0700 Subject: HP-3000 (was: HP HP-2117F on ebay) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 16 Dec 2006 01:04:40 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > > Not so much a comprehensive guide, but check the HP Computer Museum > > Yep, lots of good stuff there. In IE7 you can setup a search provider > > so that you can search it directly in one click. Pretty handy. > > I find the easiest thing to do (particularly when a manual could be > listed in one of serveral places) is to follow the 'documentation' link > from the homepage and then to search that for anything that might be > appropriate. Yep, by installing a search provider you just shortcut the step of going to their page before you can search their site. Its not using google or something like that, its using *their* search engine with keywords fed from the search box in IE7. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 15 20:39:15 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 18:39:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: <00cd01c71f04$4efafbb0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <94884.81514.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> the guy seems to think he's the only one on earth with any of these things. He'll sell a Tandy 2000 w/o even a keyboard and ask (I forget) $100. A Mindset w/o the floppy expansion unit (and someone bought it...but who doesn't want a Mindset) for probably $300. I was searching throught the vintage listing a while back, and noticed a similar seller in that same general area (Binghamton, NY or thereabouts). Then I noticed the same friggin Peanut monitor he'd use to show the output for the picture. So to bust his chops, I e-mailed him and said he was in violation of ePay's rules by running a second user name. He e-mails back (and prior to this, I was never able to get a response) NO I'M NOT THAT SAME PERSON BUT I LIVE NEAR HIM AND HE'S HELPING ME SET UP MY AUCTIONS. I told him to relax, and that I was only kidding around. I also suggested he outfit that monitor w/jogging shoes due to the fact he's running it all over town. I once asked him if he'd accept a trade for the Columbia PC he wanted 70 bucks for. He sends back - for an Imsai amongst other extreme rarities. I don't want to bad mouth the guy, but I get the impression he gets more satisfaction posting his warez at outrageous prices then he would selling them. Isn't it obvious? How much stuff does he actually sell? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 15 20:46:47 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 20:46:47 -0600 Subject: Basic/Four Corporation Model 7250 terminal References: <20061215201153.D15B726A@fep9.cogeco.net> <45830771.2010708@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <00df01c720bc$7926b9b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote.... > Pick also has its unique "virtual" > and "assembly code" programming that it uses, but it has been > ported to a lot of architectures since it was licensed, I'm a tad bit familiar with it :) > They started out on Microdata 1600's and later their own clone > of the 1600. Next was a custom 16 bit processor they built, > and then onto several of the early microprocessors, though I > don't recall which ones. They may well have built a small > system like the one described based on the Z80 or some > 8 bit cpu. I'll be interested in which processor this has. Oh wow. I did not know any of that, and I was around the early pick community and developers quite a bit. Fascinating. I didn't know the tie-in between MAI and Microdata. I knew the salesman we had for years selling pick stuff originally came from MAI, but I had no clue MAI had that common ancestry with Pick. They also ran on M1600's? Holy cow... small world! So... did the company that made M1600's only target people who wanted to OEM their boxes with their own OS? Or did they have their OWN o/s? I'd never heard of anything on an M1600 besides Reality. I did ask our salesman one day about MAI's systems, he said it was a business basic, but nothing at all like Pick (he wasn't technical though). Most strange. Thanks for the education :) I can't wait to start restoration of my microdata M2000 :) Jay West From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 15 20:50:03 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 19:50:03 -0700 Subject: Hazeltine 2000 User's Manual Message-ID: I didn't do the scans, just combined them into a PDF, but at least its online. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 15 20:57:03 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 19:57:03 -0700 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 15 Dec 2006 18:39:15 -0800. <94884.81514.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <94884.81514.qm at web61019.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > [...] How much stuff does he actually sell? Good question. Currently there are 47 completed items you can browse for him. Of those, I count 21 items as having been sold. Most of those were clustered around the lower prices, but there was someone that bought a NeXTstation for $300 :-). Of course, that could just be the Christmas effect. I seem to recall a fewer percentage of sales last time I browsed his completed listings. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 15 21:18:42 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 19:18:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <200612120134.kBC1YQ1G090486@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <20061216031842.85444.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Frank McConnell wrote: > You can write inline assembler in your C source, but > the Turbo 2.0x > compiler can't do the assembly by itself -- it uses > Turbo Assembler > for that. Is it a *recent* development of compilers that as an intermediate step the source code will first be reduced to assembler mnemonics, before being reduced to object code? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Dec 15 22:30:46 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 23:30:46 -0500 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <20061216031842.85444.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <200612120134.kBC1YQ1G090486@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <200612160336.kBG3aFUE021336@hosting.monisys.ca> > Is it a *recent* development of compilers that as an > intermediate step the source code will first be > reduced to assembler mnemonics, before being reduced > to object code? No, this is how many compilers traditionally worked it dates back a long ways. All of my compilers generate assembly language as an intermediate step. Some of mine date back to mid- 80s, and I've worked with others before that which used an assembly intermediate step. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 21:42:45 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 16:42:45 +1300 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <200612160336.kBG3aFUE021336@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200612120134.kBC1YQ1G090486@lots.reanimators.org> <20061216031842.85444.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <200612160336.kBG3aFUE021336@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: On 12/16/06, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > > Is it a *recent* development of compilers that as an > > intermediate step the source code will first be > > reduced to assembler mnemonics, before being reduced > > to object code? > > No, this is how many compilers traditionally worked it dates > back a long ways. All of my compilers generate assembly > language as an intermediate step. Some of mine date back > to mid- 80s, and I've worked with others before that which > used an assembly intermediate step. For an old embedded product (c. 1986), we had to maintain a Perkin-Elmer workstation to compile the product C source to .ASM files that were compatible with our home-grown relocating linker. We could have replaced everything with more modern software, but it was just easier to keep the ancient workstation running for the odd code change. At the time we were still using it, it was more common for C compilers to not generate intermediate ASM files than it was years earlier, making the transition to a newer environment less than trivial. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 15 22:27:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 21:27:57 -0700 Subject: Basic/Four Corporation Model 7250 terminal In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 15 Dec 2006 20:46:47 -0600. <00df01c720bc$7926b9b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: Back on the subject of the terminal :-). I opened up the case and had a look inside. The case is similar to the ADM terminal in design: you unscrew two screws underneath the front and then fold open the lid. The CRT and the high voltage drive circuitry is attached to the lid. The power supply and logic board are mounted to the underside portion of the case. The oldest date code I could find on the chips was 77 31 and the youngest date code I could find was 79 02. The logic board circuit card is labelled in the circuit traces as VDT LOGIC & CONTROL ASSY 901990- REV S/N BD DETAIL 904058 REV A with a serial number label affixed to the board and "basic/four" with a logo in the center front of the board between the components. The keyboard is made by keytronic and is the one circuit card that has date codes from 1979. The logic and control board has the earlier date codes, with most of them being from 1978 but the 7474s are all 1977. Its always good to discover a new TTL based terminal with an original design (i.e. not OEMed from someone else). CRT terminals are still around, but certainly by the 1990s they were all starting to look alike. Finding a new terminal from the 1970s is always fun! Its also got that character of a "terminal designed exlcusively for XYZ application". The keyboard is made by keytronic and has a layout like this: 1,! 2," 3,# 4,$ 5,% 6, 7,' 8,( 9,) 0,+ :,* -,= @,; ctrl Q W E R T Y U I O P & <- mode A S D F G H J K,[ L _,\ car/enter shift Z X C V B N,^ M,] ,,< .,> ? shift Based on the symbols on the shifted letter keys, I'm not even sure it will do lower case. The keypad on the right side of the keyboard has this layout /------\/--\/-------\/-----\ | - | , | escape | clr | \______/\__/\_______/\_____/ / \/ \/ \/ \/ \ | 7 | 8 | 9 | || IV | \__/\__/\__/| |\_____/ / \/ \/ \| |/ \ | 4 | 5 | 6 | I || III | \__/\__/\__/| |\_____/ / \/ \/ \| |/ \ | 1 | 2 | 3 | || II | \__/\__/\__/| |\_____/ / \/ \| |/ \ | 0 | . | || print| \______/\__/\_______/\_____/ At this point its not at all clear to me what the communications dialog looks like when you use the mode key, the print key or the clr key. I notice this thing has no "local/line" switch on it, so perhaps that is controlled by mode. Clr might just be hardwired to send a certain sequence to the host and expect the host to send the clear screen command, who knows. The I, II, III, and IV keys are interesting in that it looks like these might be mapped to the four basic arithmetic operators add, subtract, multiply and divide. I believe that is where the "basic four" comes from in the company's literature. This guy will need a careful inspection of all his circuitry and a little bit of a cleanup before I'm willing to apply power. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From evan at snarc.net Fri Dec 15 23:21:09 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 00:21:09 -0500 Subject: Replicas article / was: RE: Anyone want 15 minutes of fame? In-Reply-To: <002301c71fb4$a0e84760$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <001801c720d1$fe8c4dd0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Just a heads-up to whoever is interested -- the article is currently on the homepage of http://www.technologyreview.com and the direct link is http://www.technologyreview.com/InfoTech/17903/. A few projects didn't make it into the article, such as Bob Armstrong's Cosmac Elf and PDP-8, etc., but I'm still pleased with how it turned out. More important, there is real news -- Sellam Ismail is now offering a replica PDP-1 front panel! - Evan >>>>> would you mind posting a list of the available kits? Thanks, John R. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 12:31 AM Subject: Anyone want 15 minutes of fame? > Hi all. I'm writing an article for MIT's Technology Review magazine > about vintage computer replica kits. I need someone to interview RIGHT AWAY. > It's currently 1:30AM here on the east coast but that is okay. So, if > you're awake and have any opinions about the various replica kits, or > especially if you've built one or plan to get one soon, then email me > OFF-LIST but RIGHT NOW. (Sorry for the late notice!!) I'm at > evan at snarc.net. Be sure to leave your phone number because I don't > have time for playing tag tonight. > > Thanks! At least 15 minutes of fame gauranteed. :) > > - Evan > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Dec 15 23:47:47 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 21:47:47 -0800 Subject: Basic/Four Corporation Model 7250 terminal In-Reply-To: <00df01c720bc$7926b9b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <20061215201153.D15B726A@fep9.cogeco.net> <45830771.2010708@msm.umr.edu> <00df01c720bc$7926b9b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <45838883.8070409@msm.umr.edu> Jay West wrote: > Jim wrote.... > Oh wow. I did not know any of that, and I was around the early pick > community and developers quite a bit. Fascinating. I didn't know the > tie-in between MAI and Microdata. I knew the salesman we had for years > selling pick stuff originally came from MAI, but I had no clue MAI had > that common ancestry with Pick. MAI had common ancestry with Microdata as did Pick. I meant that they had a related approach in that once they built up the abstract model of a basic language, file structure, etc, only a few programmers concerned themselves with the "system" and the rest were applications people who did MAI basic. Pick had their system people who concerned themselves with the Pick virtual, OS, etc, then there is the legion of Pick applications programmers who are still out doing pick database and basic, even if a large number of them don't know it. The interesting thing about the two models is that though pick was not an "open "product as in todays open source model, there were around 25 to 30 entities who had ports of pick and had people who did the system, and got more ideas than basic 4 who kept a lot of the applications and system programming internal. I don't know if MAI supports any OEMs now, and most of their current business is in the hospitatlity industry and hotels, etc. Pick is probably #2 behind DB2 or maybe DB2 and (wh)Oracle, and the largest implementation is owned by IBM (Unidata / Universe) > They also ran on M1600's? They were one of the first users. > Holy cow... small world! So... did the company that made M1600's only > target people who wanted to OEM their boxes with their own OS? Microdata targeted not so much the OS as much as a large version of what you see in Nuts 'n Volts today, the large OEM integrators who wanted to have a general purpose computer to do something in an overall solution. And the other contenders of the day, DEC, DG, General Automation, CA, (insert list of OEM mini companys here) didn't fill the bill. > Or did they have their OWN o/s? I'd never heard of anything on an > M1600 besides Reality. > I wrote an OS we called MPS at UMR that ran on the 1600 you bought. I used it at microdata for my own amusement for a couple of years, then they started using it to support 1621 programming, since all their hardware diagnostics were written in 1621 assembler, and I of course had thoughtfully ported them all to run under MPS for both the assembly and debugging. They had been using tty (TOS) and either cross assembly, or later used a debugger that talked to port 0 of a reality system. the parentage of the Microdata is interesting because you not only have the OS but the firmware to deal with. The first firmware that was written ran on the 800 hardware and was called the 810. The 800 firmware would run with minor tweaks on the 1600, so the 810 became the 1610. there were various extra instructions added, and there was firmware called 811, 812, 813, and 821, all of which had 1600 counterparts. Someone at some later date rewrote the 821 and added some stuff and came up with the 1630 which had enough stuff in it to not have an 800 version. The 810 firmware was modeled similar to the Data Machines 520, and have ex Data Machines engineers involved in the design, hence the commonality. Some time early on, Dick Pick and Chandru Murthi were shopping for a platform to take the GIRLS database off the mainframe onto, and thru Alan Shapiro, and Max Malone at microdata came up with using the 800. If I am not mistaken, Republic Data (a tiny weird divison of Republic Steel I think) contracted and they built up several 800's with 4k of memory, 1 8 way, and a 5mb disk and a tape drive to run 8 tty's on an 800. Not bad if you think 1972 and the amount of hardwre involved. it was reality 1.0 and had major problems, but was developed over several years and morphs into the 1600 and Reality. Basic 4 at some point, in the early 70's took a version of the 810 as near as I can tell, and modified it to run a mixture of the 810 assembly, and a compiled basic with multi user enhancements. The 810 ..thru 1630 were all classic "single user" systems, and had poor architecures for multi users, but was good for running dedicated systems. Basic 4 cleaned up things to allow for general purpose timeshareing and took off from there. At various times, Microdata sold systems to GTE that ran 1621, and several other companies. ADP bought a lot of reality systems and probably is the real money engine that made pick, and at one time or another accounted for probaby as much as 80% of the reality sales for microdata, and therefor also for pick early on. I know of oem systems that microdata sold that ran Harris firmware, which was a cpu that Harris had developed. There was hardware to allow the 1600 to run harris I/O as well as a control panel that matched the harris cpu front panel, but was driven by firmware. Another vendor bought and used 1600's running Varian Data Machines 620's. I don't know if anyone ever used it commercially, but there was an 1130 emulation that ran, though I only ever saw the firmware. I never did see any software that ran on it, so I don't know if it as more than an exercise by the author, Cliff Myers. He wrote it while at Purdue, on a system they had in their computer science department. I know of Purdue, UMR, and University of Southwestern Lousianna (USL) that had Microdata machines. The later had a 3200 or 32s and that machine is at the CHM, according to Al Kossow. So the OS question takes a bit to answer. Microdata officially only ever supported an assembly kit that you could run from tty's for the 1600. That was the reason we wrote our Disk OS, MPS but it never was officially acknowleged by Microdata as an "OS". the main system was Reality, once it took hold and the OEM sales sort of withered. Also Microdata had pursued a business model of "one stop buy everything" and had invested heavily in loosing operations to manufacture OEM Tape drives, Disk drives, terminals, and small printers. Only the use of the tapes, disks and terminals made them even slightly a profit center. Very few other companies I know of bought much of anything of the Microdata peripheral line. And as the 1600 Realitys aged and microdata didn't update the peripherals, they gradually got outflanked by companies which could use cheaper and better tapes, disks and peripherals. You Jay, will remember and shudder and heave if you recall the Microdata competitor to the SMD world, the Reflex I and II. that is why they eventually lost out to Ultimate IMHO. > I did ask our salesman one day about MAI's systems, he said it was a > business basic, but nothing at all like Pick (he wasn't technical > though). Most strange. Thanks for the education :) ' I guess I misspoke as far as the commonality. I think that it did resemble more the old Basic you saw on the 1600 than the Fortran like Data BAsic that pick eventually supported. Pick's basic resembled a sort of a Pascal with very bad design choices than a Basic language. things like "let" was tolerated, but not required, and the syntax gradually drifted towards procedural languages from the basic model. Internally Basic 4 started out with a 1621 like firmware which ran the OS in 32k (lower half of mem) and swapped multi users into the upper 32k of a 64K 1600. It had a very bad 32k addressing design bug (the designers used bit 15 of a 16 bit pointer to include the X (index) in the address math in some cases, which poisoned it for any addressing, hence only 32k jumps, unless you give up X. I think the nova did something like that as well, but had a better way to do 64k or > 32k object than the 1621 or 1630 did. Later versions got away from this start, but preserved the business basic source. > > I can't wait to start restoration of my microdata M2000 :) > is that the microprocessor version, or is it one of the bigger reality machines? don't recall right now. I left about when they came out with the Sequel, and called it the M9000 (6000-8000 were reality 3.0 and reality 4.0, so reality 5.0 ran on the 9000). after Microdata was merged with the CMC mob, and they came out with things like the Spirit, I lost track of all the model numbers, etc. But the M1000 was a box oem'ed from Convergent technologies that microdata wedged a modifed version of REvelation onto. Really didnt do much but modify the basic compiler to accept some crap, and make it run on the Convergent Dos I think. Convergent also ran a Unix, but microdata didn't buy that one. I think they also ran on the X86 version of Convergent, not the 68000's that they had later that scaled up into larger systems. > Jay West > > From adamg at pobox.com Fri Dec 15 19:14:07 2006 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 20:14:07 -0500 Subject: Looking for HP inverse assemblers for HP1631D Message-ID: <20061216011407.GA4629@silme.pair.com> Ken Rother wrote: > I am > also looking for a cost effective printing solution but I might just buy a > HPIB printer for that. If you have a computer with a GPIB card you can make screenshots with gpib-utils (http://gpib-utils.sourceforge.net/) and print those. -- Adam From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 08:20:29 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 09:20:29 -0500 Subject: What to do with a VAX KA655 board that is prone to CDAL parity error? Message-ID: It looks clean and great, but it reports CDAL parity error (machine check 10) randomly if the panel head is installed in place, when it is processing bulk of data. If the panal head is hanging there loosely, the chance of getting a CDAL parity error is much much rarer. What could cause this problem? A defective cache memory chip? supportive TTL chip? capacitors? Or is it better for me to unsolder the CPU and sell it to collectors? Any idea? vax, 9000 From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Dec 16 09:54:04 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 09:54:04 -0600 Subject: Basic/Four Corporation Model 7250 terminal References: <20061215201153.D15B726A@fep9.cogeco.net> <45830771.2010708@msm.umr.edu><00df01c720bc$7926b9b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45838883.8070409@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <00c801c7212a$6b250600$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim, thanks! You've filled in a lot of the earlier history I wasn't aware of with regards to Microdata! > Pick is probably #2 behind DB2 or maybe DB2 and (wh)Oracle, and the > largest implementation is owned by IBM (Unidata / Universe) It always has amazed me how huge the Pick installed base is... given that it's called so many different things many people don't realize that's what they are using - even the people writing code for it don't realize it's "Pick" :) > I wrote an OS we called MPS at UMR that ran on the 1600 you bought. I don't remember for sure from our previous conversation. Did you say that you eventually got that particular machine back?? I curse letting that machine fall through my fingers! But I wasn't a collector then, and it was "just work" to me. I left it stored at a friends house and he ditched it without telling me. How odd that it wound up with you! The really interesting part about it was I actually had two systems in that pile that were "lost". One of them had a EEPROM board for the firmware instead of the normal proms. It was a firmware development machine and historically significant. The guy I left the machines stored with was Scott Macdonald, he lived in north St. Louis at the time (Spanish Lake). He got tired of my gear taking space in his house and gave them away or sold them, I don't know what he did with them other than he got rid of them someway. This would have been somewhere around 1986. I wonder where exactly the machines went from there? > You Jay, will remember and shudder and heave if you recall the Microdata > competitor to the SMD world, the Reflex I and II. that is why they > eventually lost out to Ultimate IMHO. Heh... I do remember the Reflex I & II. I happen to have one on the M2000 system in the basement. They were not known for reliability ;) Didn't they come from Western Dynex or something like that? > is that the microprocessor version, or is it one of the bigger reality > machines? The M2000 is for all intents and purposes an M1600 - it's just slightly cleaned up. The front panel was separated from the card chassis. Very similar to the Reality Royale systems. I have a few pictures of mine: http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/45nMdata/03040006.jpg http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/45nMdata/03040007.jpg http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/45nMdata/03040008.jpg > Spirit, Ugg.. I hated that machine. The Sequel was nice though. There's a company here in town that has a sequel but the firmware board has been yanked. I think there's a couple reflex drives and a tape drive there. There was a Series 18 at Matthews Medical Books here in town, but I think that's long gone. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Dec 16 12:15:14 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 12:15:14 -0600 Subject: HP F series References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org><013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING><00a201c71faf$515f33c0$6500a8c0@BILLING><00c701c72064$835ee040$6500a8c0@BILLING> <001501c72071$d74c8ce0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <000c01c7213e$2220c390$6500a8c0@BILLING> More 21MX F series madness.... I have heard in two places now (one being Christian's post) that the E and F series mainboards were interchangeable. The HP engineering & reference documentation indicates that this was not always the case through the entire product line. There is clear mention that prior to certain date codes, there were separate mainboards for the E and F, and they were not interchangeable. After that date code, the boards were identical and interchangeable between the two. So, long story short, do not just assume the boards are the same and assume you can swap them. If they are prior date codes, you'll be disappointed ;) Now this has me curious... I wonder exactly what the difference between the E and F mainboards was that made them not compatible prior to the date code specified? I'll see if I can find further clarification. Jay From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 16 12:35:37 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 13:35:37 -0500 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <20061216031842.85444.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061216031842.85444.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <530E8013-ED20-4AAF-B79D-47203930D508@neurotica.com> On Dec 15, 2006, at 10:18 PM, Chris M wrote: >> You can write inline assembler in your C source, but >> the Turbo 2.0x >> compiler can't do the assembly by itself -- it uses >> Turbo Assembler >> for that. > > Is it a *recent* development of compilers that as an > intermediate step the source code will first be > reduced to assembler mnemonics, before being reduced > to object code? Absolutely not. The UNIX world, at least, has been doing it that way for decades. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sat Dec 16 13:37:45 2006 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 14:37:45 -0500 Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: References: <457D9207.9060606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20061216143745.5c57ba51@bluto.i16.net> On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:06:06 +0100 (CET) Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 11 Dec 2006, Al Kossow wrote: > > I have some additional material on the 960 that isn't up yet on > > bitsavers. The 960 and 980 share some peripheral interfaces. > > Good to know. > > > Did you end up with the 990 system as well? > > Yes, it's a 990/10 with 192kB RAM along with a FD800 dual floppy disk > drive and a DS10 cartridge disk drive, all mounted into an original > TI rack. The system needs heavy cleaning, but I'm confident that we > will be able to make it running again, it appears to be a nice system. > > Christian Nice... I have a number of TI systems including a /10, all of which are unfortunately in what might laughingly be called storage, in trubly abominable conditions at the moment. Whenever I get proper storage and more importantly, usable workspace/shop facilities, I will possibly have some spare /10 memory boards, should you need. Side note to Al and to Guntis Sprenne, if he's still on the list, I still have the 990/1 manuals, schematics, etc. Guntis sent me a while back, and will still be scanning them in as soon as I'm able. If folks will pardon me for being a bit vague (legal considerations, etc.), but between illiterati disdain and technophobia on the one hand, and the self-appointed NWO post-9/11 adhocratic police-state government-contracting insurance/healthcare-providing cluster-fsck fear-mongering petit-bourgeois arbiters of virtue fawning over the likes of either Richard Florida (shit, where were you in '72, mister?) or Pat Robertson/Ralph Reed/Dr. Dobson/Jack Kingston, etc. on the other, it's just damned hard for a good 'ol Georgia boy to get along out here in the sticks without something your average trade-school dropout *wannabe*, between puffs from a crack pipe or meth stick, can get his head around as being a "real job", especially once you lose any kind of dependable net connectivity. I persevere, but I'll have to ask people to be patient, unless a George Soros or somebody maybe less "political" wants to kick something in for a good cause. It's a safe bet no rich Baptist Republicans will. Sorry if I seem to rant, but you just don't know the crap I've gone through just to keep my vintage stuff from going to the landfill. BTW, they're not 960's but I do have a couple of VPU 200's (9900 CPU) that have CRU bus serial I/O. Many thanks to Al, Dave Pitts, Guntis, et al. who have re-opened the possibility I will be able to run TX990, Forth, or something similar on them instead of just the relay ladder programming that normally comes with them. jbdigriz From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Dec 16 13:53:19 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 11:53:19 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: Dave McGuire ---snip >>> >>> The story I heard "back in the day" (which was at work, from a >>>service bulletin of some sort, so I treat it with some credibility) is >>>that designers chose the spindle lubricant unwisely in some models of >>>drives, and it spun out onto the platters a bit and gummed up. >> >>I find this hard to believe. If any of the lub leaked onto the >>surface, it would surely cause the head to crash one spin >>up. On the 225 I had, it always worked fine after a smack >>on the side. Anything like steaks of lub from the bearing >>would have destroyed the disk in no time. > > I'd have thought that too, but that's what the bulletin said so I >believed it at the time. I don't know what the flying heights were in >those old drives but I'm sure they were nowhere near as low as modern >drives. > > But you mentioned "225"...As in Seagate ST-225? I've never heard of >stiction problems with those (I have used quite a few of them, and I >currently have a few in DEC machines as RD-31s)...I wasn't aware that they >could develop such problems. I will keep an eye on mine! Hi I was told that the early ones had this problem but it was fixed early. I could imagine that some of the lubricants that they used on the surfaces could have contributed to stiction. Although, the heads do fly when at speed, they do have to drag on the surface. For this they also put a very thin layer of lub on the surfaces. While the smack from the side is relatively safe, jurking a drive with a rotational force is actually more dangerous. Most heads have a sharp edge on the back of the head. Rotating the disk backwards causes it to dig into the surface. This tends to take out several tracks at the same location and if the pieces are small enough, they can lodge under the heads. Larger chunks are just wiped off and rarely cause problems. Still several sectors are damaged. If the motor is enegized at the time, it will usually keep from back rotating but if powered down, it can be more dangerous. Dwight > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Cape Coral, FL > > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Dec 16 14:01:52 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 12:01:52 -0800 Subject: Any early DSP fans? In-Reply-To: <114D4867-23F6-4EB1-BF90-3FACF5B03B3A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >From: Dave McGuire > >On Dec 10, 2006, at 10:17 AM, 9000 VAX wrote: >>I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is interested in >>early DSP chips? > > That depends on what you mean by "early". I really like the Motorola >DSP56001 chips (I've hacked on them a bit, and I have a tray of new ones >just waiting for a cool project) and I've sniffed around at the Analog >Devices ADSP-2100 chips once I found a stash of them...they look rather >nifty as well, so they're also waiting for a cool project. > > -Dave Hi Dave I've hacked a modem board that used the ADSP-2115 and the ADSP-2116 processors. These were made by Cardinal and another manufacture that I forget. They were called "Soft Modems" because they had no firmware and were boot loaded from the PC's disk. I did a simple project to decode weather FAX using one of these boards connected to a SW receiver. It was mostly just a filter and zero cross detector. I used some code that someone else had written on the PC to take the zero crossings and display the image. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Visit MSN Holiday Challenge for your chance to win up to $50,000 in Holiday cash from MSN today! http://www.msnholidaychallenge.com/index.aspx?ocid=tagline&locale=en-us From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Dec 16 14:11:10 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 12:11:10 -0800 Subject: Basic/Four Corporation Model 7250 terminal In-Reply-To: <00c801c7212a$6b250600$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <20061215201153.D15B726A@fep9.cogeco.net> <45830771.2010708@msm.umr.edu><00df01c720bc$7926b9b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45838883.8070409@msm.umr.edu> <00c801c7212a$6b250600$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <458452DE.7070604@msm.umr.edu> Jay West wrote: >> SMD world, the Reflex I and II. > > Didn't they come from Western Dynex or something like that? > Westerb Dynex drives were the inspiration for the top loading 5 and 10 mb 2314 type patter and head drives. Microdata called them Marathons, and they were 9000 drives. The Reflexs are 15000 drives if I recall. >> is that the microprocessor version, or is it one of the bigger >> reality machines? > > The M2000 \ > > http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/45nMdata/03040008.jpg > I never saw it called an M2000. this is the package that the Microdata Royale ended up in. If it is what was called an 8000, I did the firmware for it, and can help a bit :-) It is a 1600. >> Spirit, > > Ugg.. I hated that machine. The Sequel was nice though. There's a > company here in town that has a sequel but the firmware board has been > yanked. I think there's a couple reflex drives and a tape drive there. > There was a Series 18 at Matthews Medical Books here in town, but I > think that's long gone. > you should get the reflex drives, you will need them for parts > Jay > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 16 14:18:30 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 12:18:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: need s/w and docs for nec 8001/a Message-ID: <506837.1089.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> none of the disks I have are likely to work. I do have the floppy and expansion units. And Land O Goshen the mobo has test points! And no no signs of life... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 16 15:51:18 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 13:51:18 -0800 Subject: Basic/Four Corporation Model 7250 terminal Message-ID: <45846A56.2060302@bitsavers.org> > Westerb Dynex drives were the inspiration for the top loading 5 and 10 > mb 2314 type patter and head drives. Top-loading single platter drives are descendants of the IBM 5440 series used on the System 3, which were copied by most of the players in the day (Pertec, Wanco, Western Dynex, Diablo, etc.). DEC used the case design for the RL01/2 but added an embedded servo track. 2314s are 20 surface top loading 'washing machine' drives. End of the line for the head technology started on the 1311 (10 surface). Had the chance last week to talk to one of the guys at Memorex who did their early 2314 clones in the late 60's (sold to DEC as the RP01 and RP02). From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 16 15:58:11 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 13:58:11 -0800 Subject: Stiction Message-ID: <45846BF3.2030803@bitsavers.org> >I could imagine that some of the lubricants that they used on the >surfaces could have contributed to stiction. Although, the heads do fly >when at speed, they do have to drag on the surface. For this they also >put a very thin layer of lub on the surfaces. Billy Pettit has been surprisingly quiet about all of this... The one case of lubricant stiction I know of for a fact is in Quantum Q540. Apple had a huge field failure problem because of this in HD40s. They modified the firmware to giggle the head on powerup to help prevent landing zone lubricant accumulation. From wizard at voyager.net Sat Dec 16 16:13:11 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:13:11 -0500 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1166307192.19524.186.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2006-12-13 at 10:39 -0700, Richard wrote: > Has anyone purchased from this guy? Yes, just recently. > He has a lot of weird stuff, but the pricing seems like he took the > high number form suggested range in "Collectible Microcomputers" and > multiplied it by 10 or 20. Yeah, I bought a Monroe OC-8820 from him. He originally put it up with a minimum bid of somewhere around $600 U.S, which is outrageous for a CP/M machine with no software, especially one as out-of-the-mainstream as the Monroe. I want it, because I have the complete software set, and no working machine. This was a machine, with no software. Good match, crappy price. I wrote to him, and said if he got a little real on the price, I'd buy it. Months pass, with it being re-listed, time after time. Finally, it's listed at $600 again, with the new "or best offer" feature. I offered $205, I believe, and he took it. It was packed well, but got beaten to death in transport. The diskette drives were knocked out of their housings. I don't know what kind of G-force THAT requires, but I'm thinking it would be on the order of ten feet of sheer drop. Cripes. Anyway, I'm conflicted... This is the ONLY OC-8820 I've seen in about two years of looking, and the remedy is to send it back and (theoretically) get a shipper settlement. Just freaking brilliant. > You'll also note that every item is marked "rare" even things like > Atari 800! Yeah... the business model seems to be "Jack it sky high, and SOME of it will sell." Nothing immoral about that, only frustrating. He seems a decent sort. I'll report when this is all done, one way or another. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 16 16:48:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 15:48:40 -0700 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:13:11 -0500. <1166307192.19524.186.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: In article <1166307192.19524.186.camel at linux.site>, Warren Wolfe writes: > [...] Finally, it's listed at $600 again, with the new "or best offer" > feature. Yeah, last time I looked into this guy, nothing had a "best offer" option. I notice that now a lot of the stuff he's closing is closing for a best offer and not for his originally listed price. > It was packed well, but got beaten to death in transport. [...] Ouch! I hate it when that happens. I had one rare item that was smashed to pieces (literally) because the shipper didn't pack it properly. Now I always enquire about shipping practices before I make payment on ebay. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 16 18:16:08 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 16:16:08 -0800 Subject: MAI service manual Message-ID: <45848C48.8000109@bitsavers.org> Richard, is this the service manual for the terminal you bought? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160037503914 From wizard at voyager.net Sat Dec 16 18:21:24 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 19:21:24 -0500 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <20061214001031.9443.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200612132330.kBDNUIMR037756@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20061214001031.9443.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <1166314885.19524.192.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2006-12-13 at 19:10 -0500, Ken Seefried wrote: > Perhaps more insidious is I've noticed an increasing amount of non-sense > spam with no discernible (to me) purpose (no links or dead links, no message > or hook) other than to poison Bayesian corpus (corpi?). This does not bode > well. Indeed. Spam is so irritating sometimes that I seriously wonder who would be paying to DO that to potential clients. Seeing a million stupid ads, okay, I don't LIKE it, but I UNDERSTAND it. A good deal of it just seems to be attempting to get around spam filters, with no other purpose. After some piece of drek that keeps popping open new windows until I can choke it, it is NOT a question of whether or not I will buy something from them; clearly I will NEVER buy from them. The question is whether or not it is worth launching a denial of service attack against their server. So far, laziness wins, although not by much in a couple of cases. Perhaps a death penalty for excessive and annoying spam? It might not deter new spammers, but it sure would cut down on repeat offenders. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 16 18:24:17 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 18:24:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: Terms Message-ID: <200612170024.kBH0OGZo044153@keith.ezwind.net> --- Kelly Leavitt wrote: > > > Andrew wrote... > > > > BOG (no, not the toilet!) > > > Absolutely no clue. > > > > > Isn't there an expression: Bog standard > > Which just means ordinary or stock configuration? > > Kelly > Yes, something like that. Thanks to whoever posted the www.acronymfinder.com link. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 16 18:24:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 16:24:48 -0800 Subject: (Fwd) Re: Interesting decompiler Message-ID: <45841DD0.29662.859969B@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Dec 2006 at 19:18, Chris M wrote: > Is it a *recent* development of compilers that as an > intermediate step the source code will first be > reduced to assembler mnemonics, before being reduced > to object code? Those mnemonics aren't used by the compiler in many cases--they're for the compiler writers and maintainers (and curious users who'd like to take a peek). While I suppose looking at a binary dump of the object code might reveal something, it's the hard way to answer the question "Am I really generating the right code?" There are many compilers that will generate code that can be assembled by the same assembler that the programmers use, but if you have a single target, why parse ASCII text if you don't have to? It just slows the compilation process down. On the other hand, if you're writing a compiler to generate native code on multiple platforms, then using the standard assembler makes some sense. Saves you from having to know about object file layout and such. Every compiler needs some sort of assembly pass, if for nothing more than to satisfy forward references. Because the code being generated is fairly restricted as to form, a pass-and-a-half assembly phase is often more than enough. As to mnemonics, it's interesting that even in P-code implementations, the instruction mnemonics are often one of the first things specified in the design process. After all, you have to have some way to talk about the instructions you're making up. If it's native code you're compiling to, well, those are already made up for you. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 16 18:33:52 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:33:52 -0700 Subject: MAI service manual In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 16 Dec 2006 16:16:08 -0800. <45848C48.8000109@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <45848C48.8000109 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > Richard, is this the service manual for the terminal you bought? > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160037503914 Yeah, I think it is. I noticed it on ebay earlier today. Its kinda hard to tell from the really crappy photo the guy included. Plus $50 buy-it-now for a weird manual? He must be hoping that someone really needs that manual. Also "$12 shipping and handling" for a small manual that only needs an envelope and media mail shipping strikes me as a bit of a gouge as well. So its on my watch list, but not something that I feel compelled to buy at $62. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 16 18:36:35 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:36:35 -0700 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 16 Dec 2006 19:21:24 -0500. <1166314885.19524.192.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: In article <1166314885.19524.192.camel at linux.site>, Warren Wolfe writes: > [...] Perhaps a death penalty for excessive and annoying > spam? An infamous Russian spammer was bludgeoned to death with a baseball bat in July. It appears to have been a robbery gone bad instead of retaliation for spamming. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 16 18:45:03 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:45:03 -0700 Subject: Hazeltine 2000 User's Manual In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 15 Dec 2006 19:50:03 -0700. Message-ID: Gaaa.... bad URL, sorry. Here's the correct one -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Dec 16 19:11:03 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 19:11:03 -0600 Subject: Microdata References: <20061215201153.D15B726A@fep9.cogeco.net> <45830771.2010708@msm.umr.edu><00df01c720bc$7926b9b0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45838883.8070409@msm.umr.edu><00c801c7212a$6b250600$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <458452DE.7070604@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <003e01c72178$3d2a4140$6500a8c0@BILLING> More info... I had written... >> The M2000 >> http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/45nMdata/03040008.jpg To which Jim replied... > I never saw it called an M2000. this is the package that the Microdata > Royale ended up in. If it is what was called an 8000, I did the firmware > for it, and can help a bit :-) It is a 1600. I had never heard of the M2000 either. Someone had told me that's what it was, and I haven't dug into the system yet - it's just been sitting as I got it so far. It may be a 1600 cpu but the two 1600 systems that I used to have - the front panels (kind of green/brown with a WOODEN underlay) were attached right to the back of the card cage (and they actually said M1600 on them). On this machine the front panel is set far apart from the card cage via a ribbon cable. That is just the same way the Royale did it. Perhaps it's a Royale. BUT... every Royale I ever saw the front panel had this kind of grey/green color (and said Royale on the panel), and this panel looks white/brown (no Royale wording). So, I decided to open the cabinet and look around a bit. The placard says its a model R4510-00, serial number L5377. The customer build sheet says "Royale". This tells me there was apparently more than one paint/color or look for the Royales. Oh, and when I said.... >> Ugg.. I hated that machine. I was referring only to the Spirit :) Even then, I looked at it as a icky downgrade because it had no front panel and ran one of those kiddy 'microprocessors' ;) Jay From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Dec 16 20:05:21 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 18:05:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: from Richard at "Dec 16, 6 05:36:35 pm" Message-ID: <200612170205.kBH25L72018054@floodgap.com> > > [...] Perhaps a death penalty for excessive and annoying > > spam? > > An infamous Russian spammer was bludgeoned to death with a baseball > bat in July. It appears to have been a robbery gone bad instead of > retaliation for spamming. Media bias, of course. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Don't let 'em drive you crazy when it's within walking distance. ----------- From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Dec 17 01:39:18 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 02:39:18 -0500 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <530E8013-ED20-4AAF-B79D-47203930D508@neurotica.com> References: <20061216031842.85444.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <530E8013-ED20-4AAF-B79D-47203930D508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4584F426.8010402@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 15, 2006, at 10:18 PM, Chris M wrote: >>> You can write inline assembler in your C source, but >>> the Turbo 2.0x >>> compiler can't do the assembly by itself -- it uses >>> Turbo Assembler >>> for that. >> >> Is it a *recent* development of compilers that as an >> intermediate step the source code will first be >> reduced to assembler mnemonics, before being reduced >> to object code? > > Absolutely not. The UNIX world, at least, has been doing it that way > for decades. I can verify that many compilers on VSE have done that for a long time too. I don't know MVS and VM/CMS well enough to comment on either of those. Peace... Sridhar From grant at stockly.com Sun Dec 17 01:55:54 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 22:55:54 -0900 Subject: First construction of an Altair Kit has begun Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061216224404.0158b000@pop.1and1.com> I've been in contact on a fairly regular basis with the owners of the new kits. Howard is waiting for Christmas, Mark (US) is working on his, John is sick at the moment, and Mark (Netherlands) is still waiting for the mail to come in. I have uploaded the pictures he has sent me. They aren't too much different than what I have on my web site, but they are from a kit builder. :) I thought this might be interesting. Other than myself, I doubt there has been too many Altairs constructed in the past 30 years. :) http://www.stockly.com/forums/showthread.php?p=206 Mark mailed me a few pictures of his vintage computer collection, including his Mark-8 kit provided by Steve Gabaly of Obtronix. http://www.stockly.com/forums/showthread.php?p=207 Right now I am working on the silk screen and solder mask layer for the 88-PMC (2k 1702A PROM Board), ACR (Cassette Tape Board), 2SIO (Serial Terminal Board), 88-4MCS (4k Static Ram board). With these items its possible to have a completely vintage basic development environment. I am beginning to work on other vintage computer equipment too! Expect some interesting new things to come your way. :) Grant From grant at stockly.com Sun Dec 17 02:33:35 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 23:33:35 -0900 Subject: Historic Computer Videos? Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061216231803.01557b38@pop.1and1.com> Is anyone aware of any video available on DVD/VHS of historic mini computers? IMSAI, MITS, those types? What about larger machines? Training or promotional videos? I'm looking for any video of any older computers really, so if there are some good mainframe videos out there I'd love to get those too. : ) I bought a video from ebay from seller vintech-history. It is great. I wish it were longer. :) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180064876755 Grant From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Dec 17 02:39:39 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 03:39:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <00f501c72066$cc369270$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <20061214205812.41465.qmail@web60819.mail.yahoo.com><200612151525.KAA02834@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00f501c72066$cc369270$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200612170848.DAA13396@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > But moreover, believe it or not I've found a fair number of servers > that take the temporary rejection as a permanent one and never try > again. Customers won't accept this. Customers have no choice. Greylisting is not the only thing that can produce a temporary rejection...unless you're running a very exceptional MTA! > Yes, I know it's easy to say in an ivory tower mentality "well, > that's their fault", but in a business setting we don't have the > luxury of the ivory tower. I actually think you don't have the luxury of not, in the long term. It's decisions like that that are breaking email, worse than any spammer overload. Tolerating nonconformance only encourages more nonconformance. (I actually had someone use the term "broken spam filters" for the filters I have in place that reject gross labeling errors, like "text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1" on mail containing octets which are not 8859-1 printables. Just amazing.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From sb at thebackend.de Sun Dec 17 05:45:37 2006 From: sb at thebackend.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sebastian_Br=FCckner?=) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:45:37 +0100 Subject: Any early DSP fans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A1BE386-5042-48D5-B5FD-CCBFEAAA2AFB@thebackend.de> Hi, I got several ISA boards that do voice recognition (single words only) and can emulate a (slow) fax or data modem. Each of the boards has 8 DSP32 and I think 2 mb of RAM (maybe 4?). I got quite a bit of documentation and some of the driver source as well (works on DOS and Solaris). There was a SBUS version of these boards as well but I don't have any of those. Communication with the host system is done only via a 32-bit wide port. Sorry but at the moment I can't remember the brand or the product name. If anyone is interested I could dig them up and look up some more detail... If anyone has a good home for one of the boards they are free to go. I am in Germany so shipping to the US might be expensive. Sebastian Am 10.12.2006 um 23:01 schrieb 9000 VAX: > Ha, finally DSP32C showed up. Yes, I have an ISA bus DSP32C board > that is > ready to go to a good home. I do not have the software. Just for $5 > shipping > cost. > > vax, 9000 > > On 12/10/06, Richard wrote: >> >> >> In article >> , >> "9000 VAX" writes: >> >> > I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is >> interested in >> > early DSP chips? >> >> I have several vintage machines that depend on AT&T DSP32C chips >> to do >> their business. The ESV workstation used them for per-vertex >> processing and scan conversion; a custom VLSI chip that I wrote test >> code for does span and frame buffer processing. The AT&T Pixel >> Machine uses the DSP32C to perform all its processing, I think. >> >> I also have a TMS320C25 development kit that I guess is "vintage" by >> now, although it wasn't at the time I bought it :-). >> -- >> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for >> download >> >> >> Legalize Adulthood! >> From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun Dec 17 06:40:49 2006 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 07:40:49 -0500 Subject: OT amends Message-ID: <20061217074049.3c605278@bluto.i16.net> I wish to apologize to the list for making potentially rancorous OT references to religion and politics. They were over-general to begin with, as I had in mind certain local land barons, robber barons, and pave-the-planet suburban sprawl "developers" and franchise operators who are anticipating their moment in the sun here locally, cashing in on a Monopoly (and monopoly) end-game to the general detriment, to real economic development in particular. Notwithstanding this, and notwithstanding my opinion that the Religious Right is neither, this ain't the place for it. As for Mr. Florida, I wonder if he's ever read "The Yankee vs. Cowboy War"? "W" as Hegelian synthesis? Off-list if you want to pursue this, though. Ob-cc: Wanted, recommendations on affordable, decent-quality steel storage buildings, in the 2000-10000 sq. ft. range. Plus shelving, workbench systems, etc. First responder please change subject heading. Thanks. jbdigriz From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Dec 17 11:49:21 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:49:21 -0500 Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... Message-ID: <200612171249.21812.pat@computer-refuge.org> It looks like the IBM 5360 in Kansas is back on ebay (the seller says that the buyer didn't pick it up; probably didn't realize the size of these things...) http://search.ebay.com/130059850446 If I had room for it, I'd probably be tempted to go and get it. BTW, does anyone know what happened to the 1130 in Indianapolis? Did the machine get moved out ok? Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 17 12:58:00 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 11:58:00 -0700 Subject: Historic Computer Videos? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 16 Dec 2006 23:33:35 -0900. <5.2.1.1.0.20061216231803.01557b38@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: In article <5.2.1.1.0.20061216231803.01557b38 at pop.1and1.com>, Grant Stockly writes: > Is anyone aware of any video available on DVD/VHS of historic mini > computers? IMSAI, MITS, those types? What about larger > machines? Training or promotional videos? I'm looking for any video of > any older computers really, so if there are some good mainframe videos out > there I'd love to get those too. : ) I posted a link to the list a while back of a video I found on the net (I think it was from archive.org) about the SAGE. It may be the "On Guard!" video mentioned on that ebay auction. The Computer History Museum has been putting video clips up on google video so you might want to look there. Most of them are recent lectures at the museum by various speakers. I definately recommend the Steve Wozniak one! Another source you might want to check is the series "Modern Marvels" which has done a couple episodes on computers. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 17 13:01:51 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:01:51 -0700 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 17 Dec 2006 07:40:49 -0500. <20061217074049.3c605278@bluto.i16.net> Message-ID: In article <20061217074049.3c605278 at bluto.i16.net>, "James B. DiGriz" writes: > Ob-cc: Wanted, recommendations on affordable, decent-quality steel > storage buildings, in the 2000-10000 sq. ft. range. Plus shelving, > workbench systems, etc. First responder please change subject heading. What about a Quonset Hut? I see them for sale at the State Fair here in Utah and they seem pretty cheap, relatively speaking. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Dec 17 14:27:39 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 14:27:39 -0600 Subject: Terms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061217142429.0dd68c58@localhost> At 03:07 PM 12/15/2006 -0700, you wrote: >In article <20061215220242.GD20482 at linus.groomlake.area51>, > Sean Conner writes: > > > I use and there's also a plugin for the > > Firefox websearch field (the one that normally defaults to Google) for > > AcronymFinder. Pretty handy. Any such resource that returns 44 acronyms for "TLA" gets my vote. Bonus points: Correctly defines ETLA. Bonus points, 1 point taken off (score: A-) for having the definition of FLA (four-letter acronym) but on the second page of results. [Life] "Buy a rifle, encrypt your data, and wait for the Revolution!" --.sig of Travis J.I. Corcoran (TJIC at icd.teradyne.com) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 17 14:49:10 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:49:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <1166314885.19524.192.camel@linux.site> References: <200612132330.kBDNUIMR037756@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20061214001031.9443.qmail@seefried.com> <1166314885.19524.192.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <20061217124750.W73098@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 16 Dec 2006, Warren Wolfe wrote: > couple of cases. Perhaps a death penalty for excessive and annoying > spam? It might not deter new spammers, but it sure would cut down on > repeat offenders. . . . or, if they just knew that there is a group of people travelling around the country killing spammers, . . . pass it on From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Dec 16 09:37:57 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 15:37:57 +0000 Subject: What to do with a VAX KA655 board that is prone to CDAL parity error? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <458412D5.4040402@gjcp.net> 9000 VAX wrote: > It looks clean and great, but it reports CDAL parity error (machine check > 10) randomly if the panel head is installed in place, when it is processing > bulk of data. If the panal head is hanging there loosely, the chance of > getting a CDAL parity error is much much rarer. > > What could cause this problem? A defective cache memory chip? supportive > TTL > chip? capacitors? > > Or is it better for me to unsolder the CPU and sell it to collectors? > > Any idea? That's a bit odd. What is this "panel head" of which you speak? The thing with the sockets on? I'd wonder if there was some crazy earthing shenanigans going on. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Dec 16 19:01:57 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 01:01:57 +0000 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45849705.7070005@gjcp.net> Richard wrote: > In article <1166314885.19524.192.camel at linux.site>, > Warren Wolfe writes: > >> [...] Perhaps a death penalty for excessive and annoying >> spam? > > An infamous Russian spammer was bludgeoned to death with a baseball > bat in July. It appears to have been a robbery gone bad instead of > retaliation for spamming. Yeah. Yeah, I'd make it look like a robbery, too. Gordon. From kberlen at ticz.com Sat Dec 16 23:08:29 2006 From: kberlen at ticz.com (Kevin Berlen) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 00:08:29 -0500 Subject: B&C Microsystems 1409 Prom Burner Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.1.20061217000423.02f01658@mail.joink.com> Hello eveyone. I am new to the list and looking for info for an old prom burner I have come across. It appears to have been manufactured by B&C Microsystems, and is a model 1409. Looking for any info regarding this beast. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Kevin Berlen From feedle at feedle.net Sun Dec 17 15:50:03 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 14:50:03 -0700 Subject: Terms In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061217142429.0dd68c58@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061217142429.0dd68c58@localhost> Message-ID: <4585BB8B.3080701@feedle.net> Tom Peters wrote: > > Bonus points, 1 point taken off (score: A-) for having the definition > of FLA (four-letter acronym) but on the second page of results. I always heard that as FOrMLA (Four Or More Letter Acronyms). FWIW. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 17 15:51:34 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 14:51:34 -0700 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 17 Dec 2006 01:01:57 +0000. <45849705.7070005@gjcp.net> Message-ID: In article <45849705.7070005 at gjcp.net>, Gordon JC Pearce writes: > Richard wrote: > > In article <1166314885.19524.192.camel at linux.site>, > > Warren Wolfe writes: > > > >> [...] Perhaps a death penalty for excessive and annoying > >> spam? > > > > An infamous Russian spammer was bludgeoned to death with a baseball > > bat in July. It appears to have been a robbery gone bad instead of > > retaliation for spamming. > > Yeah. Yeah, I'd make it look like a robbery, too. Well, you can google and read about it yourself. It wasn't made to look like a robbery, it was simply classified as a murder at first. When they found the suspects, *they* claimed it was a robbery gone bad. Of course, all this information comes from the highly ethical and incorruptible Moscow police, so take it for what its worth. Still, the whole incident has got to be putting spammers on edge, even if only just a little. I know if I ever met anyone at a party who admitted to being a spammer I would kidney punch them right on the spot with no guilt whatsoever. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Dec 17 16:00:29 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 17:00:29 -0500 Subject: What to do with a VAX KA655 board that is prone to CDAL parity error? In-Reply-To: <458412D5.4040402@gjcp.net> References: <458412D5.4040402@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 12/16/06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > That's a bit odd. What is this "panel head" of which you speak? The > thing with the sockets on? It is the metal cover with several switches, an 7 segment diagnostic LED and the console serial port socket. I'd wonder if there was some crazy earthing shenanigans going on. I swap in another KA655 and that one works perfectly, even with the panel head that I talked about. So I guess something happend to the first KA655 so it is sensitive to noise. I decide to take it off duty. vax, 9000 Gordon > From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Dec 17 16:37:02 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 17:37:02 -0500 Subject: B&C Microsystems 1409 Prom Burner Message-ID: <01C72202.140CA340@mse-d03> No problem; I've got the burner, manual & software. Contact me off-list, pls mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 00:08:29 -0500 From: Kevin Berlen Subject: B&C Microsystems 1409 Prom Burner Hello eveyone. I am new to the list and looking for info for an old prom burner I have come across. It appears to have been manufactured by B&C Microsystems, and is a model 1409. Looking for any info regarding this beast. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Kevin Berlen From grant at stockly.com Sun Dec 17 17:05:32 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 14:05:32 -0900 Subject: Double posts? Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061217140300.027ecb78@pop.1and1.com> I'm getting double posts SOMETIMES from the list. Does anyone have any idea why this would be happening? I was wondering if I was subscribed to the list twice, but it doesn't occur to all messages. Does anyone else experience this? I've included the headers from an example message up until they differ. They are the same line for line except one has a blank CC field. ================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:49:10 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Cisin X-X-Sender: cisin at shell.lmi.net To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.37 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.86.2, clamav-milter version 0.86 on keith.ezwind.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on keith.ezwind.net Cc: Subject: Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested ================= Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:49:10 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Cisin X-X-Sender: cisin at shell.lmi.net To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.37 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.86.2, clamav-milter version 0.86 on keith.ezwind.net X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on keith.ezwind.net Subject: Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Sun Dec 17 17:08:26 2006 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 23:08:26 +0000 Subject: IRIS Indigo & IRIX Versions Message-ID: <11c909eb0612171508t258c18bqf7593095e35eb2ba@mail.gmail.com> Hi List, I have an R3000 Indigo with GR2-Elan graphics and a system disk with a working copy of IRIX 4.0.5. The provenance of these 2 items is different, which explains why the GR2-Elan doesn't seem to be supported by the 4.0.5kernel that's on the disk. Does anyone know if any rev or patch of 4.0.5 ever supported GR2-Elan? The hardware is definitely working as I have a 5.3 install working nicely. Was 4.0.5 ever shipped on CD? I don't remember ever seeing it on anything other than QIC tape. 64K ?/$/E question - does anyone have 4.0.5 in a form that can be made available? Cheers, Pete -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Dec 17 17:51:47 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 18:51:47 -0500 Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 17 Dec 2006 03:39:39 EST." <200612170848.DAA13396@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200612172351.kBHNplNF027247@mwave.heeltoe.com> der Mouse wrote: >> But moreover, believe it or not I've found a fair number of servers >> that take the temporary rejection as a permanent one and never try >> again. Customers won't accept this. > >Customers have no choice. Greylisting is not the only thing that can >produce a temporary rejection...unless you're running a very >exceptional MTA! Yes - i find it hard to believe that an smtp mta would not 'store and forward'. At the very least it it would be non-compliant with RFC's and worse it would be quickly deamed "very broken". people have multiple mx's for a reason - servers go down. >> Yes, I know it's easy to say in an ivory tower mentality "well, >> that's their fault", but in a business setting we don't have the >> luxury of the ivory tower. I understand, and agree, but at some point (about now) the volume of spam gets to be 100x the volume email and something has to be done. I just turned on greylisting (two different versions, one for each mx) on a domain and the volume of spam went down 90%. I am willing to pay a 1 hour tax for that relief. The time I was wasting was costing me money. Plus, I whitelist domains I do business with. (at some point it becomes an economic issue where the lost time and messages ends up costing you money. not very ivory tower to me.) -brad From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Dec 17 18:02:56 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 19:02:56 -0500 Subject: Double posts? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20061217140300.027ecb78@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061217140300.027ecb78@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <200612171902.56639.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 17 December 2006 18:05, Grant Stockly wrote: > I'm getting double posts SOMETIMES from the list. Does anyone have > any idea why this would be happening? I was wondering if I was > subscribed to the list twice, but it doesn't occur to all messages. > Does anyone else experience this? I've included the headers from an > example message up until they differ. They are the same line for line > except one has a blank CC field. The part where they differ is probably going to say what's wrong... Any chance you're subscribed to both cctalk and cctech? If so, don't do that. They're not separate lists. Pat > ================= > Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:49:10 -0800 (PST) > From: Fred Cisin > X-X-Sender: cisin at shell.lmi.net > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.37 > X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.86.2, > clamav-milter version 0.86 on keith.ezwind.net > X-Virus-Status: Clean > X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=failed > version=3.0.2 > X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on > keith.ezwind.net Cc: > Subject: Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested > ================= > Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:49:10 -0800 (PST) > From: Fred Cisin > X-X-Sender: cisin at shell.lmi.net > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.37 > X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.86.2, > clamav-milter version 0.86 on keith.ezwind.net > X-Virus-Status: Clean > X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=4.0 tests=none autolearn=failed > version=3.0.2 > X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on > keith.ezwind.net Subject: Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Dec 17 18:07:26 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 18:07:26 -0600 Subject: Double posts? References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061217140300.027ecb78@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <002101c72238$85d9b9a0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Grant wrote.... > I'm getting double posts SOMETIMES from the list. You are subscribed to both views of the same list (cctech & cctalk). Please pick one to stick with and unsubscribe from the other :) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Dec 17 18:15:43 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 18:15:43 -0600 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested References: Message-ID: <003a01c72239$a8c6ce70$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I really appreciate all the help and advice.... this has gone on a tad longer than the off-list suggestions I requested. Let's wrap this thread up soon, and thanks! Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Dec 17 18:27:02 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 18:27:02 -0600 Subject: OT amends References: <20061217074049.3c605278@bluto.i16.net> Message-ID: <004101c7223b$3cf3bd50$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> James wrote... >I wish to apologize to the list for making potentially rancorous OT > references to religion and politics. Apology accepted... I had to go back and look. I had deleted the first message, thinking it was spam that made it through to the list ;) > They were over-general to begin > with, as I had in mind certain ... *HUGE SNIP* The rest of that was back in the same vein as the original post ;) We really need to make an effort to keep political & religious inferences off list. Believe me, I know it's hard. I'm a political junkie myself so when someone makes a side comment it's REALLY hard for me not to start a "tit-for-tat". But I try, and continue to work at it :) Jay From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Dec 17 18:26:56 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt - Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 19:26:56 -0500 Subject: Xerox Rooms? In-Reply-To: <002101c72238$85d9b9a0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061217140300.027ecb78@pop.1and1.com> <002101c72238$85d9b9a0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4585E050.3020409@atarimuseum.com> I was looking for some history books on Parc on Ebay and while searching I ran across this auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Xerox-Rooms-Developed-By-PARC-NIB_W0QQitemZ200053055800QQihZ010QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem What exactly is it? I'm not interested in bidding, maybe someone on the list would like it, I would just like to know more about what the program did for Windows. Curt From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Dec 17 18:46:39 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 00:46:39 +0000 Subject: OT amends In-Reply-To: <004101c7223b$3cf3bd50$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On 18/12/06 00:27, "Jay West" wrote: > We really need to make an effort to keep political & religious inferences > off list. Believe me, I know it's hard. I'm a political junkie myself so > when someone makes a side comment it's REALLY hard for me not to start a > "tit-for-tat". But I try, and continue to work at it :) Just do what I do and send it all to /dev/null :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Dec 17 19:17:41 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 20:17:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <200612172351.kBHNplNF027247@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200612172351.kBHNplNF027247@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Dec 2006, Brad Parker wrote: > I just turned on greylisting (two different versions, one for each mx) > on a domain and the volume of spam went down 90%. I am willing to pay a > 1 hour tax for that relief. The time I was wasting was costing me > money. Plus, I whitelist domains I do business with. You don't have to go with the default 1 hour delay on milter-greylist: I have mine set for 15 minutes, and it had the same result. On the other hand, systems listed in the SORBS DNSRBL are given a 2 hour delay. I whitelist frequently used servers (such as the classicmp server and some of the yahoo groups servers) so there is no delay for those. You can also play with the auto-whitelist time, so mail that does make it through the delay will be automatically whitelisted for whatever time you like. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 17 19:18:35 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 18:18:35 -0700 Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:49:21 -0500. <200612171249.21812.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200612171249.21812.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > It looks like the IBM 5360 in Kansas is back on ebay (the seller says > that the buyer didn't pick it up; probably didn't realize the size of > these things...) > > http://search.ebay.com/130059850446 What's a 5251 display station? Looks like a terminal to me :-). I tried finding stuff on google, but most of it is documentation for products /emulating/ a 5251. It appears to be part of that coax cable terminal networking stuff and associated with a 5250 display station controller. What's the controller do? Are the smarts in the controller with the keyboard and display being relatively dumb? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 17 19:20:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 18:20:30 -0700 Subject: Xerox Rooms? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 17 Dec 2006 19:26:56 -0500. <4585E050.3020409@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: See digibarn, just like it says on the item description :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Dec 17 19:43:52 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 20:43:52 -0500 Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200612172043.52682.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 17 December 2006 20:18, Richard wrote: > In article <200612171249.21812.pat at computer-refuge.org>, > > Patrick Finnegan writes: > > It looks like the IBM 5360 in Kansas is back on ebay (the seller > > says that the buyer didn't pick it up; probably didn't realize the > > size of these things...) > > > > http://search.ebay.com/130059850446 > > What's a 5251 display station? Looks like a terminal to me :-). A 5251 is a 5250-style twinax terminal. ASCII, but not useful unless you have an S/36 or AS/400 system to use it with. Twinax was the networking method that S/36 (and later AS/400, and possibly other S/3x systems) used to attach terminals and printers to the host. It's basically the equivalent of a 3270-style terminal attachment to a S/3x0 serial mainframe, except that on the S/3x0, you have some sort of terminal controller box between the host and the terminal, and 525x terminals attach directly to the host (each device has an In and Out port, so you run the cable from the host to Term 1 to Term 2 to printer 1 to ... and terminate the last device. newer (maybe all?) devices auto-terminate if there's no twinax cable plugged into the "out" port.) You can also pick up "5250 emulation cards", which allow your PC to emulate a 5250 terminal. All of those that I've seen are ISA cards. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bob at jfcl.com Sun Dec 17 20:12:53 2006 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 18:12:53 -0800 Subject: KRQ50/RRD40 problems Message-ID: <000001c7224a$072db9f0$cb01010a@Rhyme> I've got a KRQ50 (M7552) and a RRD40-DC (the 15 pin LMSI version, not the SCSI version!) drive in a MicroVAX-III, but I can't seem to get them working. VMS sees the KRQ50 as PUB0, but it doesn't see any drives on the controller. Any attempt to access DUB0 just gives device offline errors. I read somewhere that the KRB50 had to have a particular firmware version before it would work with the RRD40 - does anybody know the correct ROMs that I should have on my board? I didn't have a cable to connect the drive and controller, so I made one. Is the cable just supposed to be a DB15M <-> DB15F with all pins wired straight thru? Is there anything special about the cable? Is there any significance to the A and B ports on the KRQ50 (i.e. does it matter which one you use)? Unfortunately this seems to be a really rare device, and online docs are pretty much non-existent. Thanks, Bob Armstrong From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 17 20:34:04 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 19:34:04 -0700 Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 17 Dec 2006 20:43:52 -0500. <200612172043.52682.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200612172043.52682.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > On Sunday 17 December 2006 20:18, Richard wrote: > > In article <200612171249.21812.pat at computer-refuge.org>, > > > > Patrick Finnegan writes: > > > It looks like the IBM 5360 in Kansas is back on ebay (the seller > > > says that the buyer didn't pick it up; probably didn't realize the > > > size of these things...) > > > > > > http://search.ebay.com/130059850446 > > > > What's a 5251 display station? Looks like a terminal to me :-). > > A 5251 is a 5250-style twinax terminal. [...] So what's the 5250 display station controller do? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ksr at krother.com Sun Dec 17 20:38:47 2006 From: ksr at krother.com (Ken Rother) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 21:38:47 -0500 Subject: Looking for HP inverse assemblers for HP1631D References: <20061216011407.GA4629@silme.pair.com> Message-ID: <018201c7224d$a5a63d70$0401a8c0@KSRPC> Thnak you, this looks like a nice solution. I will try this out as soon as I get a GPIB card. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adam Goldman" To: Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 8:14 PM Subject: Re: Looking for HP inverse assemblers for HP1631D > Ken Rother wrote: >> I am >> also looking for a cost effective printing solution but I might just buy >> a >> HPIB printer for that. > > If you have a computer with a GPIB card you can make screenshots with > gpib-utils (http://gpib-utils.sourceforge.net/) and print those. > > -- Adam > From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Dec 17 20:48:44 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 21:48:44 -0500 Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... In-Reply-To: <200612172043.52682.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200612172043.52682.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4586018C.2010201@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > You can also pick up "5250 emulation cards", which allow your PC to > emulate a 5250 terminal. All of those that I've seen are ISA cards. I've seen Microchannel ones too. Peace... Sridhra From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Dec 17 23:14:18 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 00:14:18 -0500 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor In-Reply-To: <474C83B2.8030000@compsys.to> References: <4566F003.6030402@gjcp.net> <474C83B2.8030000@compsys.to> Message-ID: <458623AA.2040107@atarimuseum.com> Anyone had success importing Vax WPS files into a modern wordprocessor? I had heard that older Wordperfect's could read in Vax WPS files, anyone know for a fact? Curt From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 18 00:48:41 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 22:48:41 -0800 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor Message-ID: <4585C949.8721.EDF62C9@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Dec 2006 at 0:14, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Anyone had success importing Vax WPS files into a modern > wordprocessor? I had heard that older Wordperfect's could read in Vax > WPS files, anyone know for a fact? Are you talking about WPS I files a la DECStation? Cheers, Chuck From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Dec 17 18:06:58 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 00:06:58 +0000 Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <200612172351.kBHNplNF027247@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200612172351.kBHNplNF027247@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4585DBA2.5060204@gjcp.net> Brad Parker wrote: > I just turned on greylisting (two different versions, one for each mx) > on a domain and the volume of spam went down 90%. I am willing to pay a > 1 hour tax for that relief. The time I was wasting was costing me > money. Plus, I whitelist domains I do business with. If they're just firing out the odd spam, is it even necessary to wait an hour? Gordon From jrr at flippers.com Sun Dec 17 19:35:23 2006 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 17:35:23 -0800 Subject: B&C Microsystems 1409 Prom Burner In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.1.20061217000423.02f01658@mail.joink.com> References: <6.2.0.14.1.20061217000423.02f01658@mail.joink.com> Message-ID: At 12:08 AM -0500 12/17/06, Kevin Berlen wrote: >Hello eveyone. I am new to the list and looking for info >for an old prom burner I have come across. It appears >to have been manufactured by B&C Microsystems, >and is a model 1409. Looking for any info regarding >this beast. Any info would be greatly appreciated. >Thanks, > >Kevin Berlen Hi Kevin, The 1409 was a great burner from the mid to late 80s that could be used to burn Eproms and CPUs (2716's, 2764s, 8748s...) of the day. Available as either a kit or assembled and tested, had serial port that went up to 19,200 as I recall... I used one for many years until I bought a Xeltek Superpro. I think B&C Microsystems still exists and probably has the manual for it available in PDF format. http://www.bcmicro.com (link seems broken) if not I might have a copy that I can photocopy or scan to the archive mentioned below. You might be better off on another mail list called Tech Tools List for this particular item - there we talk about electronic repair equipment instead of the classic computers. We also have the 1409 ROM image archived on our FTP site. Low chatter rate too, perhaps a few messages a week and then a flurry every month or two... John :-#)# -- How to subscribe or unsubscribe from TTL http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/pub/TTL/ From paul0926 at comcast.net Sun Dec 17 23:25:12 2006 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2006 22:25:12 -0700 Subject: Historic Computer Videos? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20061216231803.01557b38@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061216231803.01557b38@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <64D71F8B-DDCD-4EF7-BDA2-ADD9CF95D55B@comcast.net> I don't know about mini computers, but here is a fantastic video about the Eniac. http://www.blastoffmedia.com/mauchly/ Paul On Dec 17, 2006, at 1:33 AM, Grant Stockly wrote: > Is anyone aware of any video available on DVD/VHS of historic mini > computers? IMSAI, MITS, those types? What about larger machines? > Training or promotional videos? I'm looking for any video of any > older computers really, so if there are some good mainframe videos > out there I'd love to get those too. : ) > > I bought a video from ebay from seller vintech-history. It is > great. I wish it were longer. :) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180064876755 > > Grant > From bear at typewritten.org Mon Dec 18 02:28:02 2006 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 00:28:02 -0800 Subject: IRIS Indigo & IRIX Versions In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0612171508t258c18bqf7593095e35eb2ba@mail.gmail.com> References: <11c909eb0612171508t258c18bqf7593095e35eb2ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1FF9B7F0-650D-4671-B7D5-75C7634CFE69@typewritten.org> On Dec 17, 2006, at 3:08 PM, Pete Edwards wrote: > which explains why the GR2-Elan doesn't seem to be supported by the > 4.0.5kernel that's on the disk. 4.0.5 is not what has since become known as a "unified release". Each release of 4.0.5 supports only a specific collection of hardware. If you are taking a disk installed on one machine and trying to boot it in another, you have a very different problem. IRIX install media contains collections of software optimized specifically for both processor (according to IP number) and graphics options. The correct collection for a given machine is selected automatically during installation, such that any given installed copy of IRIX supports only the exact hardware (or substantially similar hardware) it was installed on. Upgrade from an R3000 (IP12) to R4000 (IP20) Indigo, you have to re- install IRIX, but not if you upgrade from R4000 to R4400 (both IP20). Upgrade from entry graphics, you have to re-install, but not if you upgrade from anything else. The foregoing is true no matter what release of IRIX you are looking at. It doesn't stop being true even if you use a "unified release" like 5.3 or 6.5. > Was 4.0.5 ever shipped on CD? I don't remember ever seeing it on > anything other than QIC tape. Yes, many of the 4.0.5 releases were available on CD. Not many machines had CD-ROM drives when 4.0.5 was current, though, so most media was shipped on QIC; that's what SGI owners had in 1993, for the most part. ok bear From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Dec 18 07:28:41 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 08:28:41 -0500 Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200612180828.41281.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 17 December 2006 21:34, Richard wrote: > In article <200612172043.52682.pat at computer-refuge.org>, > > Patrick Finnegan writes: > > On Sunday 17 December 2006 20:18, Richard wrote: > > > In article <200612171249.21812.pat at computer-refuge.org>, > > > > > > Patrick Finnegan writes: > > > > It looks like the IBM 5360 in Kansas is back on ebay (the seller > > > > says that the buyer didn't pick it up; probably didn't realize > > > > the size of these things...) > > > > > > > > http://search.ebay.com/130059850446 > > > > > > What's a 5251 display station? Looks like a terminal to me :-). > > > > A 5251 is a 5250-style twinax terminal. [...] > > So what's the 5250 display station controller do? I have no idea, and don't see one (or any reference) in the auction... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Dec 18 08:29:58 2006 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:29:58 -0500 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor In-Reply-To: <4585C949.8721.EDF62C9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4585C949.8721.EDF62C9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4586A5E6.3060002@atarimuseum.com> @Chuck --- Off of Vax 750's and 780's They appear to be Word-11 and/or WPS All in One files, I can read the text, but its sandwiched inbetween tons of formatting information, and I've got hundreds of files to go through and manually cleaning them up is tedious, so I was hoping there might be in import util or a modern WP that could simply read these files in natively and keep the formating. Curt Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 Dec 2006 at 0:14, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > >> Anyone had success importing Vax WPS files into a modern >> wordprocessor? I had heard that older Wordperfect's could read in Vax >> WPS files, anyone know for a fact? >> > > Are you talking about WPS I files a la DECStation? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Dec 18 09:00:47 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 16:00:47 +0100 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor References: <4585C949.8721.EDF62C9@cclist.sydex.com> <4586A5E6.3060002@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <003d01c722b5$52a5c8d0$2101a8c0@finans> > > On 18 Dec 2006 at 0:14, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > > > >> Anyone had success importing Vax WPS files into a modern > >> wordprocessor? I had heard that older Wordperfect's could read in Vax > >> WPS files, anyone know for a fact? > >> > > In my InterMedia conversion system, I found a DEC WPS protocol. If you could mail me a file, I could try if this protocol is correct. Nico From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Dec 18 09:11:14 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:11:14 -0600 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor In-Reply-To: <4586A5E6.3060002@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <004c01c722b6$c296e650$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> > @Chuck --- Off of Vax 750's and 780's They appear to be Word-11 > and/or WPS All in One files, I can read the text, but its Please note, Word-11 is not a DEC product, so they probably aren't in that format. (Though if anyone has a copy for RSTS, or knows where to get it, please hook me up :) From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 18 09:27:36 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:27:36 -0600 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor References: <004c01c722b6$c296e650$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <001601c722b9$0fa73920$6500a8c0@BILLING> It was written... >> @Chuck --- Off of Vax 750's and 780's They appear to be Word-11 >> and/or WPS All in One files, I can read the text, but its > > Please note, Word-11 is not a DEC product, so they probably aren't in that > format. (Though if anyone has a copy for RSTS, or knows where to get it, > please hook me up :) I'm not positive, but I was thinking that the 3rd party word processor for RT11 called "Saturn" had it's default document file end in .WPS as well. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 18 10:31:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 08:31:11 -0800 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor In-Reply-To: <004c01c722b6$c296e650$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <4586A5E6.3060002@atarimuseum.com>, <004c01c722b6$c296e650$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <458651CF.27738.10F4AF89@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Dec 2006 at 9:11, Julian Wolfe wrote: > > @Chuck --- Off of Vax 750's and 780's They appear to be Word-11 > > and/or WPS All in One files, I can read the text, but its > > Please note, Word-11 is not a DEC product, so they probably aren't in that > format. (Though if anyone has a copy for RSTS, or knows where to get it, > please hook me up :) Ah, okay. The DECStation WPS I files are nothing short of bizarre; it took quite a bit of work to unravel them. But then, you can't even see clear text in them. Sounds like the VAX version is quite a bit more straightforward. Cheers, Chuck From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 10:38:39 2006 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:38:39 -0500 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance Message-ID: <4affc5e0612180838l182c2bc0ra529b352cd6a65c9@mail.gmail.com> Over the weekend, I got out two old DC-600 tape drives out of storage - a Wangtek and an Archive. Only the Wangtek has a SCSI-to-QIC24 interface board, but I think I can use that on either drive (the board may in fact be originally from the Archive drive anyways). Anyways, after a quick visual inspection and wiping some dust off, I did try it with an old DC-600 tape cartridge - one that I knew was not important. It loaded OK and I started an attempt to image the tape to a file. About 1/4 into the tape something started vibrating, quickly escalating and before I could do anything, the tape stopped. Result: rubber goo on the plastic roller that drives the DC-600 cartridge drive belt, some on the tape itself, and the tape shows deformation (wavy) on the top half. I had to toss it. The drive itself: the rubber roller driving the aforementioned plastic roller had melted. Clearly visible is the area where the rubber meets the cartridges' roller - the rubber is notched. Furthermore the rubber roller is no longer cylindrical. Luckily there seems to be no other damage to the drive - no rubber seems to have been deposited on the R/W head. Any idea what could have caused this and how to prevent it? I now have two options: I can move the SCSI-to-QIC24 interface to the Archive drive, but I want to make sure that the same doesn't happen there. The other option is to remove the melted rubber roller and steal the one from the Archive drive. The mechanisms of the drives are different (the Archive has a lever mechanism, whereas the Wangtek has a spring-loaded push mechanism) so it's hard for me to tell if I can even move the rubber roller. Is this maybe a component that can easily be obtained elsewhere? Any ideas? Joe. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 18 10:42:20 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:42:20 -0700 Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Dec 2006 08:28:41 -0500. <200612180828.41281.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: In article <200612180828.41281.pat at computer-refuge.org>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > > > A 5251 is a 5250-style twinax terminal. [...] > > > > So what's the 5250 display station controller do? > > I have no idea, and don't see one (or any reference) in the auction... It wasn't in the auction, but when I googed for 5251 display station, I came across this page on IBM's site, which lists a 5251 (not 5250, sorry) display station controller. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 18 10:49:32 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:49:32 -0700 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:38:39 -0500. <4affc5e0612180838l182c2bc0ra529b352cd6a65c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4affc5e0612180838l182c2bc0ra529b352cd6a65c9 at mail.gmail.com>, "Joachim Thiemann" writes: > The drive itself: the rubber roller driving the aforementioned plastic > roller had melted. Clearly visible is the area where the rubber meets > the cartridges' roller - the rubber is notched. Furthermore the > rubber roller is no longer cylindrical. Luckily there seems to be no > other damage to the drive - no rubber seems to have been deposited on > the R/W head. > > Any idea what could have caused this and how to prevent it? We've discussed the "rubber roller turns to goo" problem here a few times since I've been on the list in the past couple years. There isn't much you can do to prevent it other than don't buy old equipment :-). The problem is that the rubber tends to break down with age and turns to goo no matter what. Sometimes on old equipment the part has completely turned to a puddle of goo without even attempting to use it. You can attempt to have new rollers manufactured; there are places that specialize in this. However, the end results are mixed as the new materials don't necessarily have the same friction properties as the old materials. Sometimes they are too "grippy" and sometimes they are too "slippy". You just have to try it and see. > I now > have two options: I can move the SCSI-to-QIC24 interface to the > Archive drive, but I want to make sure that the same doesn't happen > there. The same could happen there, it would depend on the age of the drive, the history of its storage (environment can affect material degradation significantly) and the materials used on the roller. > The other option is to remove the melted rubber roller and > steal the one from the Archive drive. I don't know if I'd be brave enough to try that myself :-) > The mechanisms of the drives are different (the Archive has a lever > mechanism, whereas the Wangtek has a spring-loaded push mechanism) so > it's hard for me to tell if I can even move the rubber roller. Is > this maybe a component that can easily be obtained elsewhere? You can try Terry's Rubber Rollers & Wheels -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Dec 18 11:12:29 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 12:12:29 -0500 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:38:39 EST." <4affc5e0612180838l182c2bc0ra529b352cd6a65c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200612181712.kBIHCTNN024859@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Joachim Thiemann" wrote: > >The drive itself: the rubber roller driving the aforementioned plastic >roller had melted. I don't think it melted. I would guess it suffered a fate oft spoken of on this list - it "turned to goo". My primitive understanding is that things like ozone and sunlight cause the long carbon chains in the material to "relax". And, from the discussions with a few chemists there is no way to reverse the process. (keeping them in small plastic bags might help, but I am not qualified to say, and only before the damage is done, not after) I have found that various industrial tubing like neoprene, especially those for food and medical uses, can be used to replace the old rubber. I've done it with some success as have others here. But I have not tried it with a dc600 viper. I do have a gummy viper roller on my desk - I'd like to restore it at some point so if you do let us know what worked. The trick is getting the diameter right... -brad From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 18 11:17:05 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:17:05 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance Message-ID: <4586CD11.8050905@bitsavers.org> > About 1/4 into the tape something started vibrating, quickly > escalating and before I could do anything, the tape stopped. Result: > rubber goo on the plastic roller that drives the DC-600 cartridge > drive belt, some on the tape itself, and the tape shows deformation > (wavy) on the top half. I had to toss it. This is the classic failure mode for the rollers. Pressure/Temperature causing breakdown of the rubber. > Any idea what could have caused this and how to prevent it? There is no way to prevent it. The rubber had already decomposed, and the elevated temperature caused what was left of the bonds to change state. > The other option is to remove the melted rubber roller and > steal the one from the Archive drive. They aren't interchangeable. The only option you have is to find a newer drive with a roller that hasn't decomposed (yet..). I know of no commercial source for just the rollers for either Archive or Wangtek. Wangtek changed their roller design on later drives. Archive didn't, so you may be able to find 150meg drives that are new enough to survive. The most common source are Sun external 150meg shoeboxes, which have been readily available in the past. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 18 11:42:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:42:18 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <200612181712.kBIHCTNN024859@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: >, <200612181712.kBIHCTNN024859@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4586627A.22716.1135CF8F@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Dec 2006 at 12:12, Brad Parker wrote: > But I have not tried it with a dc600 viper. I do have a gummy viper > roller on my desk - I'd like to restore it at some point so if you do > let us know what worked. The trick is getting the diameter right... For those of us with machine tools, I wonder if a roller can be "fine tuned" to the proper diameter by fitting an oversize piece of neoprene tubing to the roller, cooling the whole affair in dry ice, then machining it (on a lathe) to the proper size. I can't recall where, but I seem to recall someone mentioning that if frozen hard, neoprene is actually quite easy to machine. Has anyone tried this? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 18 11:53:42 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 09:53:42 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <4586CD11.8050905@bitsavers.org> References: <4586CD11.8050905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45866526.28848.114040BD@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Dec 2006 at 9:17, Al Kossow wrote: > Wangtek changed their roller design on later drives. Archive didn't, so > you may be able to find 150meg drives that are new enough to survive. > The most common source are Sun external 150meg shoeboxes, which have > been readily available in the past. This "goes to goo" seems to be manufacturer-related. I've got a Wangtek drive with a gooey roller, but a Tandberg of the same age is just fine, as is a Caliper. If I check McMaster-Carr's online catalog, I see a bewildering number of choices under "Rubber tubing". Does anyone have an idea about what works best? http://tinyurl.com/y6pv4y Then, there's heat-shrink neoprene tube; might work where a very thin coating is needed. Cheers, Chuck From spedraja at ono.com Mon Dec 18 12:03:05 2006 From: spedraja at ono.com (sp) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:03:05 +0100 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia In-Reply-To: <474C8379.5020506@compsys.to> References: <474C8379.5020506@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4586D7D9.7050508@ono.com> Well, someone asked for one 3000 some days ago. Yourself... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190062443432&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D190062443432%2509%26fvi%3D1 Greetings Sergio From technobug at comcast.net Mon Dec 18 12:04:57 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:04:57 -0700 Subject: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Cleaning out things and came across 40+ tubes (24/tube) of TTL 5400 Quad Nand Gates (Mil version of the 7400). Free for postage. Here's your chance to build your computer from scratch :oD CRC From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 12:15:56 2006 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 13:15:56 -0500 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <4586CD11.8050905@bitsavers.org> References: <4586CD11.8050905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4affc5e0612181015i1b1d2651y155df9ec0bd85df4@mail.gmail.com> On 12/18/06, Al Kossow wrote: > This is the classic failure mode for the rollers. Pressure/Temperature > causing breakdown of the rubber. > There is no way to prevent it. The rubber had already decomposed, and > the elevated temperature caused what was left of the bonds to change > state. Hmmm, my next idea - just for obtaining the data, not the long-term preservation of the drive - is to write a quick and dirty script or C program to read the data off the drive slooooowly. After all, it took a considerable number of minutes of the drive going at full speed to cause the rubber to fail. If I read one block, then pause for a bunch of seconds, I think I could do this in a careful enough matter. The problem is I only have one shot at this, so I should give a generous cool-off period. Joe. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 18 12:09:28 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:09:28 -0700 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:03:05 +0100. <4586D7D9.7050508@ono.com> Message-ID: In article <4586D7D9.7050508 at ono.com>, sp writes: > Well, someone asked for one 3000 some days ago. Yourself... That was me, but I've been informed by my fellow users from the period that it was actually a 2000! Sheesh, I feel stupid :-). I'm still skeptical of this however, I need to find some bona-fide documentation that it was a 2000 and not a 3000, because I swear I remember it being a 3000.... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 18 12:20:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 10:20:00 -0800 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia In-Reply-To: <4586D7D9.7050508@ono.com> References: <474C8379.5020506@compsys.to>, <4586D7D9.7050508@ono.com> Message-ID: <45866B50.8901.11585562@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Dec 2006 at 19:03, sp wrote: > Well, someone asked for one 3000 some days ago. Yourself... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190062443432&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D190062443432%2509%26fvi%3D1 There was a 3000-series HP server on the local Freecycle here last week. I didn't pursue it, because I have no particular use for one. I suspect that this one dates from the 90's, however, given the age of the building it's in. Owner said it was in a 5 ft. rack. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Dec 18 12:26:18 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 18:26:18 +0000 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 18/12/06 16:49, "Richard" wrote: > :-). The problem is that the rubber tends to break down with age and > turns to goo no matter what. Sometimes on old equipment the part has > completely turned to a puddle of goo without even attempting to use > it. Ya, the transport rollers in the tape drive for my Sharp MZ80B have wept all over the metalwork. 'Tis a bit of a mess and will take some undoing...... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Dec 18 12:40:33 2006 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 10:40:33 -0800 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia In-Reply-To: (legalize@xmission.com's message of "Mon\, 18 Dec 2006 11\:09\:28 -0700") References: Message-ID: <200612181840.kBIIeX69063727@lots.reanimators.org> Richard wrote: > I'm still skeptical of this however, I need to find some bona-fide > documentation that it was a 2000 and not a 3000, because I swear I > remember it being a 3000.... How much do you remember about how you logged in? -Frank McConnell From kth at srv.net Mon Dec 18 12:41:13 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:41:13 -0700 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor In-Reply-To: <004c01c722b6$c296e650$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <004c01c722b6$c296e650$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <4586E0C9.60000@srv.net> Julian Wolfe wrote: >>@Chuck --- Off of Vax 750's and 780's They appear to be Word-11 >>and/or WPS All in One files, I can read the text, but its >> >> > >Please note, Word-11 is not a DEC product, so they probably aren't in that >format. (Though if anyone has a copy for RSTS, or knows where to get it, >please hook me up :) > > I have copys of Word-11, and DecWord, on 800 BPI magtape, but have no way to read them. Word-11 was made by DPD, and DecWord was based on that. The differences between the two are mostly just a version difference. I think DecWord will read Word-11 files without any problems. If you wanted to convert from WPS-8 to WordPerfect, then I could offer my code at http://srv.net/~kth . I think that the internal format is "similiar" to Word-11, but Word-11 didn't pack 3 characters into 2 12-bit words. you might be able to use it as a basis for understanding the format and writing your own conversion program, but reverse engineering would still be required. From kth at srv.net Mon Dec 18 12:46:41 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:46:41 -0700 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor In-Reply-To: <4586E0C9.60000@srv.net> References: <004c01c722b6$c296e650$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <4586E0C9.60000@srv.net> Message-ID: <4586E211.1080606@srv.net> Kevin Handy wrote: > If you wanted to convert from WPS-8 to WordPerfect, then I > could offer my code at http://srv.net/~kth . oops. Please change that to http://onewest.net/~kth From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 18 12:57:04 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 12:57:04 -0600 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia References: Message-ID: <007701c722d6$5076fef0$6500a8c0@BILLING> You wrote.... > That was me, but I've been informed by my fellow users from the period > that it was actually a 2000! Sheesh, I feel stupid :-). Tell me a bit about the system you used, and perhaps I can help. I have three HP2000's running here at the moment...Two running 2000/Access (one is a dual 2100 system and one is a dual 21MX/E system) and one running 2000/E. Jay From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 18 13:04:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:04:43 -0800 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor In-Reply-To: <4586E0C9.60000@srv.net> References: <004c01c722b6$c296e650$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU>, <4586E0C9.60000@srv.net> Message-ID: <458675CB.23389.11814682@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Dec 2006 at 11:41, Kevin Handy wrote: > If you wanted to convert from WPS-8 to WordPerfect, then I > could offer my code at http://srv.net/~kth . > I think that the internal format is "similiar" to Word-11, but > Word-11 didn't pack 3 characters into 2 12-bit words. > you might be able to use it as a basis for understanding the > format and writing your own conversion program, but > reverse engineering would still be required. We must be looking at different versions of WPS 8. The version that I have (on RX01 diskettes) packs 4 characters into 2 12-bit words, but the disk storage layout is a bit bizarre (3 physical sectors with data interleaved to produce a single logical sector) and there are numerous "escape" codes for switching to upper/lower case, bold, underline, ruler, etc. I've got a converter that I wrote that converts from WPS-8 RX01 images to HTML files. Why HTML? Because people already know how to cut and paste HTML into their word processor and HTML can be read by any web browser, regardless of hardware platform. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 18 13:17:14 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 12:17:14 -0700 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Dec 2006 10:40:33 -0800. <200612181840.kBIIeX69063727@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: In article <200612181840.kBIIeX69063727 at lots.reanimators.org>, Frank McConnell writes: > Richard wrote: > > I'm still skeptical of this however, I need to find some bona-fide > > documentation that it was a 2000 and not a 3000, because I swear I > > remember it being a 3000.... > > How much do you remember about how you logged in? Well it was my first computing experience, so I'm pretty sure it was a 3000. But given two old timers from my first computing group both said it was a 2000, now I'm on a hunt for documents that will say definitively :-). Until then its my memory vs. their memory. I remember that on the HP we all used a "demo" account. I can't remember if the accounts on the HP were numeric or alphanumeric. There were some accounts where you used user name "demo", password "demo". This was even written on a label attached to the DECwriter IIs that they had :-). On the PDP-11/70, I was 1,20 and 20,8 at different times, depending on whether or not I was granted a priveleged account. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 18 13:19:03 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 12:19:03 -0700 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Dec 2006 12:57:04 -0600. <007701c722d6$5076fef0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <007701c722d6$5076fef0$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > You wrote.... > > That was me, but I've been informed by my fellow users from the period > > that it was actually a 2000! Sheesh, I feel stupid :-). > > Tell me a bit about the system you used, and perhaps I can help. > [...] What I remember is that it logged you into a timesharing BASIC environment. I remember that the standard library had a set of programs that would teach you BASIC, called TUT01 through TUT25. They were tutorials in the BASIC language. I imagine that this was a standard software library that shipped with all the HP minis of the time. I don't recall anything really about the operating environment beyond that. I only used the HP for a few months before moving over to the 11/70 and using BASIC-PLUS, but the HP is where I taught myself to program with those TUTxx programs. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Dec 18 13:38:31 2006 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:38:31 -0800 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia In-Reply-To: (legalize@xmission.com's message of "Mon\, 18 Dec 2006 12\:17\:14 -0700") References: Message-ID: <200612181938.kBIJcV1m064938@lots.reanimators.org> Richard wrote: > Well it was my first computing experience, so I'm pretty sure it was a > 3000. But given two old timers from my first computing group both > said it was a 2000, now I'm on a hunt for documents that will say > definitively :-). Until then its my memory vs. their memory. You had to type something to log in, right? How'd it start? "HEL-" (2000) "HELLO-" (2000) "HELLO " (3000) > I remember that on the HP we all used a "demo" account. I can't > remember if the accounts on the HP were numeric or alphanumeric. HP2000 would be a letter followed by three digits, e.g. H999. HP3000 would be (at minimum) two labels, "user" and "account", of one to eight characters each separated by a period. Could also have a "session name" label in front followed by a comma, and/or a "group" label at the end prefixed by a comma.) First character of each label would be alphabetic, second and later characters alphanumeric. -Frank McConnell From pechter at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 13:50:28 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 14:50:28 -0500 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor In-Reply-To: <4586E0C9.60000@srv.net> References: <004c01c722b6$c296e650$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <4586E0C9.60000@srv.net> Message-ID: What's the difference between DEC/dx and the two below. Was DEC/dx just a conversion format from WPS to Word11/WPS-Plus? On 12/18/06, Kevin Handy wrote: > > Julian Wolfe wrote: > > >>@Chuck --- Off of Vax 750's and 780's They appear to be Word-11 > >>and/or WPS All in One files, I can read the text, but its > >> > >> > > > >Please note, Word-11 is not a DEC product, so they probably aren't in > that > >format. (Though if anyone has a copy for RSTS, or knows where to get it, > >please hook me up :) > > > > > > I have copys of Word-11, and DecWord, on 800 BPI magtape, > but have no way to read them. > > Word-11 was made by DPD, and DecWord was based on that. > The differences between the two are mostly just a version > difference. I think DecWord will read Word-11 files without > any problems. > > If you wanted to convert from WPS-8 to WordPerfect, then I > could offer my code at http://srv.net/~kth . > I think that the internal format is "similiar" to Word-11, but > Word-11 didn't pack 3 characters into 2 12-bit words. > you might be able to use it as a basis for understanding the > format and writing your own conversion program, but > reverse engineering would still be required. > > From jrr at flippers.com Mon Dec 18 10:17:11 2006 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 08:17:11 -0800 Subject: B&C Microsystems 1409 Prom Burner In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.0.14.1.20061217000423.02f01658@mail.joink.com> Message-ID: At 5:35 PM -0800 12/17/06, John Robertson wrote: >At 12:08 AM -0500 12/17/06, Kevin Berlen wrote: >>Hello eveyone. I am new to the list and looking for info >>for an old prom burner I have come across. It appears >>to have been manufactured by B&C Microsystems, >>and is a model 1409. Looking for any info regarding >>this beast. Any info would be greatly appreciated. >>Thanks, >> >>Kevin Berlen > >Hi Kevin, > >The 1409 was a great burner from the mid to late 80s that could be >used to burn Eproms and CPUs (2716's, 2764s, 8748s...) of the day. >Available as either a kit or assembled and tested, had serial port >that went up to 19,200 as I recall... I used one for many years >until I bought a Xeltek Superpro. > >I think B&C Microsystems still exists and probably has the manual >for it available in PDF format. http://www.bcmicro.com (link seems >broken) if not I might have a copy that I can photocopy or scan to >the archive mentioned below. > >You might be better off on another mail list called Tech Tools List >for this particular item - there we talk about electronic repair >equipment instead of the classic computers. We also have the 1409 >ROM image archived on our FTP site. Low chatter rate too, perhaps a >few messages a week and then a flurry every month or two... > >John :-#)# >-- >How to subscribe or unsubscribe from TTL > >http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist > >FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/pub/TTL/ Snooping around archive.org shows that B&C seems to have evolved into Testmetrix - and in 1998 when testmetrix.com first appeared they stated "Testmetrix is a division of B&C Microsystems, which was founded in 1983 in Sunnyvale, CA.(the heart of Silicon Valley)." . Same phone number as B&C. John :-#)# From Lee.Courtney at windriver.com Mon Dec 18 13:32:37 2006 From: Lee.Courtney at windriver.com (Courtney, Lee) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:32:37 -0800 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia Message-ID: <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A21E6@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com> Ohhh - nice big power hungry ECL based Classic 3000! Really slow compared to later PA-RISC cousins, but a nice machine. Pair this with a 2680 laser printer, a roomful of 793x washing machine size disc drives, and some 7980 reel tape drives and you had a nice 1980s HP data center. On a historic note one could argue that this was the machine that saved HP from the same fate as DEC. In the late 1970s and early 1980s HP had several competing 32-bit architectures(Wide Word, Bridge, Vision... All pre-PA-RISC), none of which won out and made it to market. When HP Labs pushed Spectrum (aka PA-RISC) we were waaaay behind DEC/VAX and IBM/S38/AS400/mainframe, and in a very difficult market position. There was talk about the lights going out for business computing line (HP3000), which was a big profit center for HP. The HP3000-64 had been released, then -68, and -70. If we had not had the -68 and -especially the -70 to give us breathing room and keep many big customers needing higher performance happy, HP could have found itself in a very unpleasant business bind. Spectrum was very successful and we made a good transition, and along with help from printers and PCs HP vaulted from a minor player to a real player in the server market. Stan Seiler might have some additional color. I was working in the RTE Lab then moved to MPE Lab on Spectrum, so never worked on MPE for Classic. My $0.02... Cheers, Lee Courtney Product Line Manager - Linux for Consumer Devices Wind River 500 Wind River Way Alameda, California 94501 Office: 510-749-2763 Cell: 650-704-3934 Yahoo IM: charlesleecourtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of sp > Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 10:03 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia > > Well, someone asked for one 3000 some days ago. Yourself... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=19006244343 2&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%> 3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D190062443432%2509%26fvi%3D1 > > > Greetings > Sergio > > From jwest at ezwind.net Mon Dec 18 14:16:43 2006 From: jwest at ezwind.net (Jay West) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 14:16:43 -0600 Subject: Pr1me boxes Message-ID: <013301c722e1$6fa133d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> I'm taking a straw poll here.... how many folks are interested in obtaining a Prime 50-series computer (in general, not a specific model) for their collection? I'm not really wanting to count anyone who thinks "yeah, I'd take one if it showed up on my doorstep for free". I'm more interested in a rough count of people who want one enough to actually drive a ways, or pay shipping plus "token" amount, etc. Someone who would seriously pursue one if it became available to them. If you meet that criteria, let me know! Jay From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Dec 18 14:26:13 2006 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 12:26:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Pr1me boxes In-Reply-To: <013301c722e1$6fa133d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <20061218202614.28226.qmail@web52707.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jay West wrote: > I'm taking a straw poll here.... how many folks are > interested in obtaining > a Prime 50-series computer (in general, not a > specific model) for their > collection? Count me in - although I actually collect Prime computers... I have a couple already, and always am on the lookout. You're probably looking for someone that is _not_ already a Prime lover... -Ian From drb at msu.edu Mon Dec 18 14:29:17 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 15:29:17 -0500 Subject: Pr1me boxes In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 18 Dec 2006 14:16:43 CST.) <013301c722e1$6fa133d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <013301c722e1$6fa133d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200612182029.kBIKTHib023962@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I'm taking a straw poll here.... how many folks are interested in > obtaining a Prime 50-series computer (in general, not a specific model) > for their collection? Me! *jumps up and down* But you already knew that. :) De From kth at srv.net Mon Dec 18 14:36:54 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 13:36:54 -0700 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor In-Reply-To: <458675CB.23389.11814682@cclist.sydex.com> References: <004c01c722b6$c296e650$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU>, <4586E0C9.60000@srv.net> <458675CB.23389.11814682@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4586FBE5.9040605@srv.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 18 Dec 2006 at 11:41, Kevin Handy wrote: > > > >>If you wanted to convert from WPS-8 to WordPerfect, then I >>could offer my code at http://srv.net/~kth . >>I think that the internal format is "similiar" to Word-11, but >>Word-11 didn't pack 3 characters into 2 12-bit words. >>you might be able to use it as a basis for understanding the >>format and writing your own conversion program, but >>reverse engineering would still be required. >> >> > >We must be looking at different versions of WPS 8. The version that >I have (on RX01 diskettes) packs 4 characters into 2 12-bit words, >but the disk storage layout is a bit bizarre (3 physical sectors with >data interleaved to produce a single logical sector) and there are >numerous "escape" codes for switching to upper/lower case, bold, >underline, ruler, etc. > >I've got a converter that I wrote that converts from WPS-8 RX01 >images to HTML files. Why HTML? Because people already know how to >cut and paste HTML into their word processor and HTML can be read by >any web browser, regardless of hardware platform. > > This program is for the DecMate II version (RX50), and it's been a while since I've done anything with it, so I may be misremembering things. It deals with with the weirdness in the 8-bit/128(?) byte RX50 format. It predates HTML, and thus doesn't even pretend to support it. It outputs to WordPerfect version 5 format. It also tries to handle overprinted (foreign) characters. Every version of Word-??, DecWord-?? seemed to use very different file formats, so I'm not surprised that the RX01 version is different from the RX50 version. But you had to do a RX transfer to transport them, so they could do a format conversion at the same time. I no longer have any DecMate II users, so the program has suffered from stagnation. But, I thought it might be useful to others. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 18 14:47:24 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 13:47:24 -0700 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Dec 2006 11:38:31 -0800. <200612181938.kBIJcV1m064938@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: In article <200612181938.kBIJcV1m064938 at lots.reanimators.org>, Frank McConnell writes: > Richard wrote: > > Well it was my first computing experience, so I'm pretty sure it was a > > 3000. But given two old timers from my first computing group both > > said it was a 2000, now I'm on a hunt for documents that will say > > definitively :-). Until then its my memory vs. their memory. > > You had to type something to log in, right? How'd it start? > "HEL-" (2000) > "HELLO-" (2000) > "HELLO " (3000) ISTR it was "HELLO". (What I remember most was before the HELLO part you did CR CR to select a machine from the port selector. After that you were talking to the machine across town from your terminal.) > > I remember that on the HP we all used a "demo" account. I can't > > remember if the accounts on the HP were numeric or alphanumeric. > > HP2000 would be a letter followed by three digits, e.g. H999. Doesn't sound familiar, but this was 1979 and I was 13 :-). > HP3000 would be (at minimum) two labels, "user" and "account", of one > to eight characters each separated by a period. Could also have a > "session name" label in front followed by a comma, and/or a "group" > label at the end prefixed by a comma.) First character of each label > would be alphabetic, second and later characters alphanumeric. Could it have been "DEMO,DEMO"? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 18 15:25:31 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 15:25:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance Message-ID: <200612182125.kBILPTSf080538@keith.ezwind.net> --- Adrian Graham wr ote: > On 18/12/06 16:49, "Richard" > wrote: > > > :-). The problem is that the rubber tends to > break down with age and > > turns to goo no matter what. Sometimes on old > equipment the part has > > completely turned to a puddle of goo without eve n > attempting to use > > it. > > Ya, the transport rollers in the tape drive for my > Sharp MZ80B have wept all > over the metalwork. 'Tis a bit of a mess and will > take some undoing...... > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest priva te > home computer > collection? > Going slightly OT, I assume the same thing would happen to any rubber rollers in VHS players, and be the main (only?) reason why VHS players start chewing VHS tapes? (I have a DVD player and am considering getting a cheap DVD recorder) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 18 15:32:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 13:32:03 -0800 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor In-Reply-To: <4586FBE5.9040605@srv.net> References: <004c01c722b6$c296e650$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU>, <458675CB.23389.11814682@cclist.sydex.com>, <4586FBE5.9040605@srv.net> Message-ID: <45869853.18758.1208272E@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Dec 2006 at 13:36, Kevin Handy wrote: > Every version of Word-??, DecWord-?? seemed to use > very different file formats, so I'm not surprised that the > RX01 version is different from the RX50 version. But you > had to do a RX transfer to transport them, so they could > do a format conversion at the same time. I believe that there is also a version of WPS for the Rainbow, called WPS-16. IIRC, it had a conversion function from WPS-Plus RX-50 diskettes to WPS-16. And, if my memory isn't failing me, it wasn't a DEC product. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 18 15:37:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 13:37:05 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0612181015i1b1d2651y155df9ec0bd85df4@mail.gmail.com> References: <4586CD11.8050905@bitsavers.org>, <4affc5e0612181015i1b1d2651y155df9ec0bd85df4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45869981.22108.120CC53B@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Dec 2006 at 13:15, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Hmmm, my next idea - just for obtaining the data, not the long-term > preservation of the drive - is to write a quick and dirty script or C > program to read the data off the drive slooooowly. After all, it took > a considerable number of minutes of the drive going at full speed to > cause the rubber to fail. Maybe, but recall that you're dealing with a streaming drive, so it's read a block, stop, back up and get a running start, and read the next one. That "backing up" is what would concern me--any "goo" that came off the roller would lodge itself between the tape layers and make a perfect setup for stripping oxide from the substrate. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 18 15:43:04 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 13:43:04 -0800 Subject: Anyone collect early PC wireless stuff? Message-ID: <45869AE8.17176.12123CF1@cclist.sydex.com> I've got a pair of Diamond HomeFree wireless networking cards (one is PCI, the other is ISA) as well as a pair of PCI "HomeFree Phoneline" cards for anyone interested in paying UPS Ground or USPS Priority shipping for them. IIRC, they'll work on Win 9x, but not NT/2K/XP (no drivers). I don't know if Linux drivers were ever produced for them. The Homefree uses a 2.4GHz (?) link to get 1Mbps (if you're lucky) and the HomeFree uses a telephone pair to get 10 Mbps. Neither scheme represented a glowing success for DMMC. Cheers, Chuck From kth at srv.net Mon Dec 18 15:54:44 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 14:54:44 -0700 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor In-Reply-To: <45869853.18758.1208272E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <004c01c722b6$c296e650$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU>, <458675CB.23389.11814682@cclist.sydex.com>, <4586FBE5.9040605@srv.net> <45869853.18758.1208272E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45870E24.40509@srv.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 18 Dec 2006 at 13:36, Kevin Handy wrote: > > > >>Every version of Word-??, DecWord-?? seemed to use >>very different file formats, so I'm not surprised that the >>RX01 version is different from the RX50 version. But you >>had to do a RX transfer to transport them, so they could >>do a format conversion at the same time. >> >> > >I believe that there is also a version of WPS for the Rainbow, called >WPS-16. IIRC, it had a conversion function from WPS-Plus RX-50 >diskettes to WPS-16. And, if my memory isn't failing me, it wasn't a >DEC product. > > I've used it, but WPS-16 doesn't sound right. WPS-Plus for the rainbow version, maybe? The transfer between the systems usually relied on "DX" transfers. Each one converted it to "DX" format, sent it through a serial line, and the remote system converted the "DX" format to it's native format. Usually it worked well, but sometimes it did odd things. From pechter at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 15:55:29 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 16:55:29 -0500 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor In-Reply-To: <45869853.18758.1208272E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <004c01c722b6$c296e650$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <458675CB.23389.11814682@cclist.sydex.com> <4586FBE5.9040605@srv.net> <45869853.18758.1208272E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: The Rainbow ran WPS-80 (CP/M) and there was a WPS-PC from Exceptional Business Solutions. I don't think there was any DEC produced WPS-alike for the Rainbow... Exceptional Business Solutions doesn't show up on the web... I wish they were available 'cause I'd love to convince them to Open Source the dead product so I could try to get it running on Linux. Bill On 12/18/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 18 Dec 2006 at 13:36, Kevin Handy wrote: > > > Every version of Word-??, DecWord-?? seemed to use > > very different file formats, so I'm not surprised that the > > RX01 version is different from the RX50 version. But you > > had to do a RX transfer to transport them, so they could > > do a format conversion at the same time. > > I believe that there is also a version of WPS for the Rainbow, called > WPS-16. IIRC, it had a conversion function from WPS-Plus RX-50 > diskettes to WPS-16. And, if my memory isn't failing me, it wasn't a > DEC product. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From rollerton at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 16:26:34 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 16:26:34 -0600 Subject: Pr1me boxes In-Reply-To: <200612182029.kBIKTHib023962@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <013301c722e1$6fa133d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> <200612182029.kBIKTHib023962@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <2789adda0612181426y74e7efcfid461528feeb917ea@mail.gmail.com> Me. Have a few things I saved during my life there, but would like to have a system. On 12/18/06, Dennis Boone wrote: > > > I'm taking a straw poll here.... how many folks are interested in > > obtaining a Prime 50-series computer (in general, not a specific model) > > for their collection? > > Me! *jumps up and down* > > But you already knew that. :) > > De > From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Dec 18 17:04:00 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 17:04:00 -0600 Subject: Targa/TIGA/??? was Re: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E303621F@MEOW.catcorner.org> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E303621F@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <45871E60.1070605@oldskool.org> Kelly Leavitt wrote: > I remeber the AT&T TARGA. Output was to a RGB monitor. Input via tablet with a puck and a wand. They had it running on a Wyse PC/286. I wrote a converter to the Amiga IFF and PC GIF, but I can't find the source any more. I worked on one of those; some small investigation showed that the .TGA files were 16-bit raw with a header (ie. no compression). Can't remember if it was 5-5-5 or 5-6-5 but would be very easy to test based on the output of the converter... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 18 17:05:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 15:05:16 -0800 Subject: OT: Vintage radio opinion Message-ID: <4586AE2C.28496.125D7F29@cclist.sydex.com> > On 11 Dec 2006 at 11:59, 9000 VAX wrote: > > > It surely worth selling. The 3 gang air capacitor worths $10 at least. > > I noticed another two air capacitors and numerous coils too. More of the eBay mystery at work. It sold for $76.75--I almost tossed it out as junk. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320061196753 Cheers, Chuck From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 17:20:27 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 18:20:27 -0500 Subject: OT: Vintage radio opinion In-Reply-To: <4586AE2C.28496.125D7F29@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4586AE2C.28496.125D7F29@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/18/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > More of the eBay mystery at work. It sold for $76.75--I almost > tossed it out as junk. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320061196753 There are a set of people who are vintage radio/ham fans. There are a set of people who are tube audio fans. There are a set of people who are vintage computer fans. I belong to the intersection of the above 3 sets. vax,9000 Cheers, > Chuck > > From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Dec 18 17:15:53 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 17:15:53 -0600 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor In-Reply-To: <001601c722b9$0fa73920$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <004c01c722b6$c296e650$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061218171512.00d29728@localhost> At 09:27 AM 12/18/2006 -0600, you wrote: >It was written... >>>@Chuck --- Off of Vax 750's and 780's They appear to be Word-11 >>>and/or WPS All in One files, I can read the text, but its >> >>Please note, Word-11 is not a DEC product, so they probably aren't in that >>format. (Though if anyone has a copy for RSTS, or knows where to get it, >>please hook me up :) > >I'm not positive, but I was thinking that the 3rd party word processor for >RT11 called "Saturn" had it's default document file end in .WPS as well. I'll confirm that. I ran Saturn WP, and their Calc thing, on RT-11 for a while. [Internet]Turn on, log in, fight spam. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 18 17:21:11 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 17:21:11 -0600 Subject: Targa/TIGA/??? was Re: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: <45871E60.1070605@oldskool.org> References: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E303621F@MEOW.catcorner.org> <45871E60.1070605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <45872267.7070209@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Leonard wrote: > Kelly Leavitt wrote: >> I remeber the AT&T TARGA. Output was to a RGB monitor. Input via >> tablet with a puck and a wand. They had it running on a Wyse PC/286. I >> wrote a converter to the Amiga IFF and PC GIF, but I can't find the >> source any more. > > I worked on one of those; some small investigation showed that the .TGA > files were 16-bit raw with a header (ie. no compression). Can't > remember if it was 5-5-5 or 5-6-5 but would be very easy to test based > on the output of the converter... I just pulled an image formats spec book off the shelf and I'm surprised at how capable Targa format actually was; image formats could be colour mapped or direct colour, and colour entries could be 15, 16, 24 or 32 bits in length. (I used to use it in connection with 3D-Studio work and raytracing output, but I'd never looked at the details of the format itself) The format will support RLE compression, as well as developer extensions and embedded thumbnail images. Version 1.0 format was released back in 1984, v2.0 was 1989. I'm surprised it isn't more common today, to be honest (although I suppose it doesn't do anything that TIFF doesn't do). cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 18 17:34:55 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 17:34:55 -0600 Subject: OT: Vintage radio opinion In-Reply-To: References: <4586AE2C.28496.125D7F29@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4587259F.4050506@yahoo.co.uk> 9000 VAX wrote: > There are a set of people who are vintage radio/ham fans. > There are a set of people who are tube audio fans. > There are a set of people who are vintage computer fans. > > I belong to the intersection of the above 3 sets. I read that as 'sects'... :-) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 18 17:32:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 16:32:40 -0700 Subject: Targa/TIGA/??? was Re: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Dec 2006 17:21:11 -0600. <45872267.7070209@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <45872267.7070209 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > I'm surprised [TGA format] isn't more common today, to be honest > (although I suppose it doesn't do anything that TIFF doesn't do). TIFF is like Common Lisp. Why get everyone to agree on a base set of features when we can just toss everyone's feature variants in a bag? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 18 16:45:40 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 22:45:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: KRQ50/RRD40 problems In-Reply-To: <000001c7224a$072db9f0$cb01010a@Rhyme> from "Robert Armstrong" at Dec 17, 6 06:12:53 pm Message-ID: > I didn't have a cable to connect the drive and controller, so I made one. > Is the cable just supposed to be a DB15M <-> DB15F with all pins wired > straight thru? Is there anything special about the cable? Probably not a lot of help, but if that interface is the same physically as the DA15 connector on other Philips/LMS CD-ROMs, I have the service manual for the CDD462. It's little more than a schematic and an incomplete parts list (the CDD462 is based on an audio CD-player, and you're expected to have the service manual for that!), but it would contain the interface pinout. Let me know if you want me to dig it out. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 18 17:24:41 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:24:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <4586627A.22716.1135CF8F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 18, 6 09:42:18 am Message-ID: > For those of us with machine tools, I wonder if a roller can be "fine > tuned" to the proper diameter by fitting an oversize piece of > neoprene tubing to the roller, cooling the whole affair in dry ice, > then machining it (on a lathe) to the proper size. I can't recall I believe it can, although cooling to liquid nitrogen temperatures is recomend (if only beacuase it takes longer to warm up again, so you have longer to take a cut). I've also heard you _can_ machine 'rubbers' at room temperature, but that the tools are totally different from those used for metal turning. May be worth investigarting. I've not tried either though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 18 17:21:23 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:21:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0612180838l182c2bc0ra529b352cd6a65c9@mail.gmail.com> from "Joachim Thiemann" at Dec 18, 6 11:38:39 am Message-ID: > The drive itself: the rubber roller driving the aforementioned plastic > roller had melted. Clearly visible is the area where the rubber meets Not really melted. The material decays (I am not sure what chemically cuases this). It's a well-knwon problem for old compyter enthusiasts -- HP magnetic card reader rollers are well-known to suffer from this Baiscailly you have to replace the roller. Replacements that have been successfully used (depending on the machine, etc) include silcone rubber O-rings (possibly with a grobe machined in the original hub, or a new hub made), heatshrink sleeving, silicoe rubber tubing (fuel line for glow-plug engines, for example), etc. I've wondered if the 2-pack elastomer materials sold by e.g. Devcon would work. Make up a mould and cast a new roller. A lot of work, but if it does the job well it'd be worth it in some cases. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 18 17:37:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:37:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <200612182125.kBILPTSf080538@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Dec 18, 6 03:25:31 pm Message-ID: > Going slightly OT, I assume the same thing > would happen to any rubber rollers in VHS > players, and be the main (only?) reason why > VHS players start chewing VHS tapes? I've not (yet) aeen a video recorder where the rollers have turned to goo. Not saying it can't happen, though. The usueal reason for tape chewins is wear on the reel-drive idler which means the tape is not wound nack into the cassette on eject (And may not be properly taken up during play/record, so it gets tangled round bits of the machine). Or wear of the backtension band so that the tape loops on the feed side of the head during play/record and gets tangled. Or wear on the pinch roller so that the tape runs away from the correct path. Assuming the heads are still good, a set of rollers and tension band is not expensive. Setting up the back tension is 'fun', and you will need a service manual for the machine (but hey, do you really have a machine that you don't have the service manual for?). -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 18 17:43:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 15:43:38 -0800 Subject: OT: Vintage radio opinion In-Reply-To: References: <4586AE2C.28496.125D7F29@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4586B72A.5172.12809DE6@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Dec 2006 at 18:20, 9000 VAX wrote: > There are a set of people who are vintage radio/ham fans. > There are a set of people who are tube audio fans. > There are a set of people who are vintage computer fans. > > I belong to the intersection of the above 3 sets. I can remember passing up used HROs for less than that. Time does strange things to one's values. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Dec 18 17:50:22 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:50:22 +0000 Subject: OT: Vintage radio opinion In-Reply-To: <4587259F.4050506@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 18/12/06 23:34, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > 9000 VAX wrote: >> There are a set of people who are vintage radio/ham fans. >> There are a set of people who are tube audio fans. >> There are a set of people who are vintage computer fans. >> >> I belong to the intersection of the above 3 sets. > > I read that as 'sects'... Group sects? (sorry :o)) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 18 17:59:51 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 17:59:51 -0600 Subject: Targa/TIGA/??? was Re: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45872B77.2050104@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > In article <45872267.7070209 at yahoo.co.uk>, > Jules Richardson writes: > >> I'm surprised [TGA format] isn't more common today, to be honest >> (although I suppose it doesn't do anything that TIFF doesn't do). > > TIFF is like Common Lisp. Why get everyone to agree on a base set of > features when we can just toss everyone's feature variants in a bag? > :-) :-) Funnily enough, that 'feature' was listed in this book as the main disadvantage of Targa too. (I'm not even sure if there was any kind of attempt at centralised control over the extensions like there was with TIFF; it may well have been a complete free-for-all :-) cheers J. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 18 18:12:13 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 16:12:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: Vintage radio opinion In-Reply-To: from "9000 VAX" at Dec 18, 2006 06:20:27 PM Message-ID: <200612190012.kBJ0CDPo019266@onyx.spiritone.com> > On 12/18/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > > More of the eBay mystery at work. It sold for $76.75--I almost > > tossed it out as junk. > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320061196753 I'm not the least bit surprised, I'd have been surprised if it didn't sell. > There are a set of people who are vintage radio/ham fans. > There are a set of people who are tube audio fans. > There are a set of people who are vintage computer fans. > > I belong to the intersection of the above 3 sets. > > vax,9000 A lot of us here belong to all three sets. Though sadly I don't have any tube audio equipment with the exception of a Pencrest set from the 60's that is in storage. I'm holding off as my children are to small for it to be safe. I think it's time to go put a Living Stereo LP on the turntable, and turn the radio my wife left on off. :^) Zane From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Dec 18 19:10:41 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 22:10:41 -0300 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance References: <4586CD11.8050905@bitsavers.org> <4affc5e0612181015i1b1d2651y155df9ec0bd85df4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <05ac01c7230b$1f7fcc70$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> This is the classic failure mode for the rollers. Pressure/Temperature >> causing breakdown of the rubber. Dunno why you get so worried in that, in Brazil these rollers are easy to find, in USA you can find them at JAMECO or NTE easily... From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Dec 18 18:20:41 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 16:20:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for Amiga software ($$$) Message-ID: Hey All. I'm looking to buy: Moviesetter by Gold Disk MainActor by MainConcept Both of these are Amiga applications, and the versions I need must be prior to 1995. I'm interested in buying these outright, so if you've got them, please contact me directly (I won't see replies to the list) and let's make a deal. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 18 18:35:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 16:35:37 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <05ac01c7230b$1f7fcc70$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <4586CD11.8050905@bitsavers.org>, <05ac01c7230b$1f7fcc70$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <4586C359.23632.12B0351F@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Dec 2006 at 22:10, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Dunno why you get so worried in that, in Brazil these rollers are easy > to find, in USA you can find them at JAMECO or NTE easily... Can you supply a URL? Thanks, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Mon Dec 18 19:18:17 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 17:18:17 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03664E@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Tony Duell wrote: and you will need a service manual for the machine (but hey, do you really have a machine that you don't have the service manual for?). -tony Yes, many machines. I can buy a new VCR/DVD combination for $89 with a one year warrenty. Why would I want to waste a weekend repairing a worn out VCR? That is time much better spent playing with my own designs, writing a utility routine, or working on some old unique piece of computer gear. Repairing a cheap piece of consumer electronics may be fun but the critical shortage in my life is time. There is never enough to do all the fun things, so I have to pick what gives the most pleasure. Repairing something just to say I can do is not on my list of priorities. Billy From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon Dec 18 19:52:14 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 20:52:14 -0500 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0612180838l182c2bc0ra529b352cd6a65c9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0612180838l182c2bc0ra529b352cd6a65c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <458745CE.30103@hawkmountain.net> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Over the weekend, I got out two old DC-600 tape drives out of storage > - a Wangtek and an Archive. Only the Wangtek has a SCSI-to-QIC24 > interface board, but I think I can use that on either drive (the board > may in fact be originally from the Archive drive anyways). > > Anyways, after a quick visual inspection and wiping some dust off, I > did try it with an old DC-600 tape cartridge - one that I knew was not > important. It loaded OK and I started an attempt to image the tape to > a file. > > About 1/4 into the tape something started vibrating, quickly > escalating and before I could do anything, the tape stopped. Result: > rubber goo on the plastic roller that drives the DC-600 cartridge > drive belt, some on the tape itself, and the tape shows deformation > (wavy) on the top half. I had to toss it. > Another case of rubber rot... I haven't had it happen to me (except rubber feet, etc... most recently on a Sun type 5 keyboard... half the left foot had turned to goo... the one thing I've found that acclerates this (and damages some plastics too), is certain vinyl? cabling... this type 5 probably had a keyboard cable wrapped and in contact with it's foot. I've had some plastic on computer cases/etc similarly damaged by prolonged contact with cables. If you are only looking to read... find a newer drive.... I use a Wantek 525Meg QIC drive... it reads DC6150 tapes... and I'm pretty sure DC600 too. I have a bunch of QIC drives around... I'm going to have to start examining the rubber rollers..... I can imagine the old 45 meg ? drive for my Sun-2 is probably toast... -- Curt From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon Dec 18 20:00:54 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 21:00:54 -0500 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0612181015i1b1d2651y155df9ec0bd85df4@mail.gmail.com> References: <4586CD11.8050905@bitsavers.org> <4affc5e0612181015i1b1d2651y155df9ec0bd85df4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <458747D6.1040100@hawkmountain.net> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On 12/18/06, Al Kossow wrote: >> This is the classic failure mode for the rollers. Pressure/Temperature >> causing breakdown of the rubber. > >> There is no way to prevent it. The rubber had already decomposed, and >> the elevated temperature caused what was left of the bonds to change >> state. > > Hmmm, my next idea - just for obtaining the data, not the long-term > preservation of the drive - is to write a quick and dirty script or C > program to read the data off the drive slooooowly. After all, it took > a considerable number of minutes of the drive going at full speed to > cause the rubber to fail. > > If I read one block, then pause for a bunch of seconds, I think I > could do this in a careful enough matter. The problem is I only have > one shot at this, so I should give a generous cool-off period. I'd say get the newest drive you can... inspect the roller beforehand... then run a scrappable tape through it a couple of times... re-inspect the roller... if ok... then recover your tapes. I doubt the method you propose would work.... heat is a factor... but pressure is likely a factor too... probably still make goo... just more slowly. This is all my opinion of course.... I'm not saying I'm right... just how I'd go about it. -- Curt > > Joe. From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Dec 18 20:07:14 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 20:07:14 -0600 Subject: Pr1me boxes References: <013301c722e1$6fa133d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <009c01c72313$87cae3c0$36406b43@66067007> I will be driving back to TX from GA around the 6th of Jan with a load of stuff, I may be able to load one on the Budget rental then. John K. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 2:16 PM Subject: Pr1me boxes > I'm taking a straw poll here.... how many folks are interested in > obtaining a Prime 50-series computer (in general, not a specific model) > for their collection? > > I'm not really wanting to count anyone who thinks "yeah, I'd take one if > it showed up on my doorstep for free". I'm more interested in a rough > count of people who want one enough to actually drive a ways, or pay > shipping plus "token" amount, etc. Someone who would seriously pursue one > if it became available to them. > > If you meet that criteria, let me know! > > Jay > > > > > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 18 20:29:10 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 19:29:10 -0700 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Dec 2006 21:00:54 -0500. <458747D6.1040100@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: In article <458747D6.1040100 at hawkmountain.net>, "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." writes: > I doubt the method you propose would work.... heat is a factor... but > pressure is likely a factor too... probably still make goo... just more > slowly. Just spinning it is a factor. I think these materials essentially become metastable over time and that depending on how much bitrot has settled into the piece it may not take much for it to become goo. I mean, just leaving the drive sitting there long enough eventually causes them to become goo, so its not *just* a function of applying heat or pressure to the object. Certainly the more stress you put on it, the higher the likelihood of disintegration. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bob at jfcl.com Mon Dec 18 20:55:55 2006 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 18:55:55 -0800 Subject: KRQ50/RRD40 problems Message-ID: <000001c72319$34e69630$cb01010a@Rhyme> >Probably not a lot of help, but if that interface is the same physically >as the DA15 connector on other Philips/LMS CD-ROMs, I have the service >manual for the CDD462. It's little more than a schematic and an >incomplete parts list (the CDD462 is based on an audio CD-player, and >you're expected to have the service manual for that!), but it would >contain the interface pinout. Let me know if you want me to dig it out. Maybe - I don't suppose it describes any DIP switches on the back of the drive? The actual drive in the RRD40 is a Laser Magnetics CM 201, so it's unlikely that they'd be the same, but you never know. I ask because I happened to find this article http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_3914.html The wizard describes the RRD40-DC as a "slave drive" for use with an existing KRQ50/RRD40 pair. Question - what's the difference between a RRD40-DC and the RRD40-HC? Is there a switch or jumper in the drive that makes it a "slave"? Ah, if only I had a manual :-) Bob From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon Dec 18 21:58:45 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 22:58:45 -0500 Subject: a real hoot... does anyone have one of these Message-ID: <45876375.6090104@hawkmountain.net> Check out: http://cgi.ebay.com/70-22786-01_W0QQitemZ230064962734QQihZ013QQcategoryZ58295QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem I 'asked' a question on where he gets that kind of price, and that when he comes down off his drug induced high I might be interested.... This has to be the most unbelievable case of 'seller things he has platinum' that I've ever seen ! If anyone has one of these... I'd like to get one for my PDP-11/83. Since mine came with an expansion box, the panel I have is the height of the two units and is meant for mounting in a DEC rack... so finding one or two of the ones like in the auction link above would be ideal. Thanks, -- Curt From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Dec 18 22:10:59 2006 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:10:59 -0500 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor In-Reply-To: <458675CB.23389.11814682@cclist.sydex.com> References: <004c01c722b6$c296e650$920718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <4586E0C9.60000@srv.net> <458675CB.23389.11814682@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200612190411.kBJ4AxUx019469@mail.itm-inst.com> At 02:04 PM 12/18/2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 18 Dec 2006 at 11:41, Kevin Handy wrote: > > > If you wanted to convert from WPS-8 to WordPerfect, then I > > could offer my code at http://srv.net/~kth . > > I think that the internal format is "similiar" to Word-11, but > > Word-11 didn't pack 3 characters into 2 12-bit words. > > you might be able to use it as a basis for understanding the > > format and writing your own conversion program, but > > reverse engineering would still be required. > >We must be looking at different versions of WPS 8. The version that >I have (on RX01 diskettes) packs 4 characters into 2 12-bit words, >but the disk storage layout is a bit bizarre (3 physical sectors with >data interleaved to produce a single logical sector) and there are >numerous "escape" codes for switching to upper/lower case, bold, >underline, ruler, etc. If you've got a real PDP-8, there's a program I wrote called WPFLOP that will convert those WPS-8 floppies to ASCII files. The disk layout isn't bizarre given that the floppies have 128 byte sectors; the layout allows you to pack 256 12-bit words into a single logical sector. My byte-mode floppy handlers for OS/8 use this convention, as does COS-310. OS/8 uses "12 bit mode" on the RX01, storing a single OS/8 block across four disk sectors, wasting a bunch of potential disk capacity. Finding copies of these programs may be interesting. ;-) -Rick From technobug at comcast.net Mon Dec 18 22:41:13 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 21:41:13 -0700 Subject: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Cleaning out things and came across 40+ tubes (24/tube) of TTL 5400 > Quad Nand Gates (Mil version of the 7400). Free for postage. > > Here's your chance to build your computer from scratch :oD > > CRC 'Tis all gone... CRC From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 18 23:07:35 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 21:07:35 -0800 Subject: a real hoot... does anyone have one of these In-Reply-To: <45876375.6090104@hawkmountain.net> References: <45876375.6090104@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <45877397.9060800@shiresoft.com> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > Check out: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/70-22786-01_W0QQitemZ230064962734QQihZ013QQcategoryZ58295QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > > I 'asked' a question on where he gets that kind of price, and that > when he comes down > off his drug induced high I might be interested.... > > This has to be the most unbelievable case of 'seller things he has > platinum' that I've > ever seen ! > > If anyone has one of these... I'd like to get one for my PDP-11/83. > Since mine > came with an expansion box, the panel I have is the height of the two > units and is > meant for mounting in a DEC rack... so finding one or two of the ones > like in the > auction link above would be ideal. Hey! I'll give you a "bargain". I'll sell you one for what he wants just for shipping (and I'll include shipping)! :-) But seriously, I do have one or two, if you really want one, contact me off list. -- TTFN - Guy From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 23:48:00 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 00:48:00 -0500 Subject: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 12/18/06, CRC wrote: > > Cleaning out things and came across 40+ tubes (24/tube) of TTL 5400 > Quad Nand Gates (Mil version of the 7400). Free for postage. > > Here's your chance to build your computer from scratch :oD If you have some 7406's... vax, 9000 CRC > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 19 00:20:36 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 22:20:36 -0800 Subject: a real hoot... does anyone have one of these In-Reply-To: <45876375.6090104@hawkmountain.net> References: <45876375.6090104@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: At 10:58 PM -0500 12/18/06, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >Check out: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/70-22786-01_W0QQitemZ230064962734QQihZ013QQcategoryZ58295QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >I 'asked' a question on where he gets that kind of price, and that >when he comes down >off his drug induced high I might be interested.... > >This has to be the most unbelievable case of 'seller things he has >platinum' that I've >ever seen ! Good grief! You can buy a *VERY* nice complete PDP-11 for that. The pieces there had to have cost a fraction of that new from DEC. That pretty much does take the prize. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 19 00:29:04 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 01:29:04 -0500 Subject: a real hoot... does anyone have one of these In-Reply-To: References: <45876375.6090104@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <1F653573-A2E7-4FED-A5A6-6B4F24ADA5BF@neurotica.com> On Dec 19, 2006, at 1:20 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Check out: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ >> 70-22786-01_W0QQitemZ230064962734QQihZ013QQcategoryZ58295QQssPageName >> ZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >> >> I 'asked' a question on where he gets that kind of price, and that >> when he comes down >> off his drug induced high I might be interested.... >> >> This has to be the most unbelievable case of 'seller things he has >> platinum' that I've >> ever seen ! > > Good grief! You can buy a *VERY* nice complete PDP-11 for that. > The pieces there had to have cost a fraction of that new from DEC. > That pretty much does take the prize. ...and $143.30 to ship it from TX to FL. Thanks, I needed that laugh! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From grant at stockly.com Tue Dec 19 00:31:07 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 21:31:07 -0900 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061218212454.02e52910@pop.1and1.com> http://klabs.org/history/build_agc/ Thanks to Richard Cini for the link! No, its not a kit from me, but it is really cool! It has good potential to become a kit! : ) Its an older link, but very cool. :) Grant From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Dec 19 00:43:52 2006 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 07:43:52 +0100 Subject: a real hoot... does anyone have one of these References: <45876375.6090104@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <006501c72339$0ee40100$2101a8c0@finans> > > Check out: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/70-22786-01_W0QQitemZ230064962734QQihZ013QQcategoryZ58295QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > I 'asked' a question on where he gets that kind of price, and that when > he comes down > off his drug induced high I might be interested.... > Anyone looked at the other items he has for sale ? It would be sufficient to retire (to a 3rd world country anyway) Nico From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 19 00:46:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:46:55 -0700 Subject: HP 2000F' Message-ID: OK, after asking around my colleagues from the day, we're narrowing in on the conclusion that it was most likely an HP 2000F or 200F'. How rare are these puppies? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 19 00:47:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:47:55 -0700 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Dec 2006 21:31:07 -0900. <5.2.1.1.0.20061218212454.02e52910@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: In article <5.2.1.1.0.20061218212454.02e52910 at pop.1and1.com>, Grant Stockly writes: > http://klabs.org/history/build_agc/ I've seen this before; has anyone on cctalk built one? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 19 00:48:39 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:48:39 -0700 Subject: HP 2000F' In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:46:55 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > OK, after asking around my colleagues from the day, we're narrowing in > on the conclusion that it was most likely an HP 2000F or 200F'. > > How rare are these puppies? I meant 2000F', not 200F', for you sticklers out there :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Dec 18 17:38:12 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:38:12 +0000 Subject: OT: Vintage radio opinion In-Reply-To: <4587259F.4050506@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4586AE2C.28496.125D7F29@cclist.sydex.com> <4587259F.4050506@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45872664.4080800@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > 9000 VAX wrote: >> There are a set of people who are vintage radio/ham fans. >> There are a set of people who are tube audio fans. >> There are a set of people who are vintage computer fans. >> >> I belong to the intersection of the above 3 sets. > > I read that as 'sects'... > > :-) I should think we're all glad that you misread it as something so inocuous... Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 19 01:40:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:40:07 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <458726D7.17136.1434D6AA@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Dec 2006 at 23:47, Richard wrote: > I've seen this before; has anyone on cctalk built one? Looks like a labor of love. But, given that the original uses RTL and core, what's the point of building one in LSTTL? Why not use an FPGA? It'd be no more or less authentic. Or perhaps just write a simulator to run on your PeeCee? What's remarkable about the original is the size (2 cu. ft.) and the modularity and serviceability. Cheers, Chuck From technobug at comcast.net Tue Dec 19 02:29:30 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 01:29:30 -0700 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <200612190649.kBJ6nNXd036187@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612190649.kBJ6nNXd036187@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Around Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:21:23 +0000 (GMT), > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: >> The drive itself: the rubber roller driving the aforementioned >> plastic >> roller had melted. Clearly visible is the area where the rubber meets > > [...] > Baiscailly you have to replace the roller. Replacements that have been > successfully used (depending on the machine, etc) include silcone > rubber > O-rings (possibly with a grobe machined in the original hub, or a > new hub > made), heatshrink sleeving, silicoe rubber tubing (fuel line for > glow-plug engines, for example), etc. > > I've wondered if the 2-pack elastomer materials sold by e.g. Devcon > would > work. Make up a mould and cast a new roller. A lot of work, but if it > does the job well it'd be worth it in some cases. I've had extremely good luck using Plasti Dip to repair capstans. The product lays up in layers of 2-8 mils (depending on dilution) and produces an extremely uniform coating. I have repaired several HP tape decks out of 30 year old test equipment which required a layer of 70 mils. The worst runout was less than 1/2 mil. The material appear to be sufficiently durable for the task. The only drawback is the requirement for patience - each layer requires 30 min. minimum drying time. After a bit of experimentation I found that floating a bit of solvent on the surface maintained the coating consistency from dip to dip. >> For those of us with machine tools, I wonder if a roller can be "fine >> tuned" to the proper diameter by fitting an oversize piece of >> neoprene tubing to the roller, cooling the whole affair in dry ice, >> then machining it (on a lathe) to the proper size. I can't recall >> > > I believe it can, although cooling to liquid nitrogen temperatures is > recomend (if only beacuase it takes longer to warm up again, so you > have > longer to take a cut). > > I've also heard you _can_ machine 'rubbers' at room temperature, > but that > the tools are totally different from those used for metal turning. > May be > worth investigarting. > > I've not tried either though. > > -tony Cooling to LN2 temperatures has its drawbacks: the rubber either separates from the mandrel or it shatters - or both... The rubber becomes glass-like and you cannot use cutting tools to machine. A number of years back back in grad school I attempted to repair a roller for a Van de Graaff generator using LN2 and failed miserably. An old machinist got his chuckles watching my many tries. He took a CO2 fire extinquisher to cool the roller and used a grinder mounted on the lathe to surface the beast. You have to warm the object up every so often to find out what the dimensions really are. I've since surfaced a laser printer's pickup roller using a Dremel grinder mounted on my mini-lathe at room temperature with good results (didn't help one bit in the printer - those rollers are not just rough, but have a directional nap). CRC From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Dec 19 04:40:13 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 07:40:13 -0300 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance References: <4586CD11.8050905@bitsavers.org>, <05ac01c7230b$1f7fcc70$f0fea8c0@alpha> <4586C359.23632.12B0351F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <06b701c7235a$44a2d7a0$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> Dunno why you get so worried in that, in Brazil these rollers are >> easy >> to find, in USA you can find them at JAMECO or NTE easily... > Can you supply a URL? www.jameco.com www.partsexpress.com www.nteinc.com These were the places where it COULD be find before. Dunno if they still sells these, but they used to have a great variety of rubber parts From wizard at voyager.net Tue Dec 19 03:41:38 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 04:41:38 -0500 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <530E8013-ED20-4AAF-B79D-47203930D508@neurotica.com> References: <20061216031842.85444.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <530E8013-ED20-4AAF-B79D-47203930D508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1166521299.19524.330.camel@linux.site> On Sat, 2006-12-16 at 13:35 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 15, 2006, at 10:18 PM, Chris M wrote: > > Is it a *recent* development of compilers that as an > > intermediate step the source code will first be > > reduced to assembler mnemonics, before being reduced > > to object code? > > Absolutely not. The UNIX world, at least, has been doing it that > way for decades. Right. Also, from the micro world, two words: Small C. I love the approach. Among other benefits, it allows one to write something in C to get the algorithm correct, and then re-write and/or optimize the generated assembly to speed up inner loops, and frequently executed code, as needed. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Tue Dec 19 03:48:32 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 04:48:32 -0500 Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: <20061216143745.5c57ba51@bluto.i16.net> References: <457D9207.9060606@bitsavers.org> <20061216143745.5c57ba51@bluto.i16.net> Message-ID: <1166521713.19524.336.camel@linux.site> On Sat, 2006-12-16 at 14:37 -0500, James B. DiGriz wrote: > . . . but between illiterati disdain and technophobia on the one hand, > and the self-appointed NWO post-9/11 adhocratic police-state > government-contracting insurance/healthcare-providing cluster-fsck > fear-mongering petit-bourgeois arbiters of virtue fawning over the > likes of either Richard Florida (shit, where were you in '72, mister?) > or Pat Robertson/Ralph Reed/Dr. Dobson/Jack Kingston, etc. on the > other, it's just damned hard for a good 'ol Georgia boy to get along > out here in the sticks without something your average trade-school > dropout *wannabe*, between puffs from a crack pipe or meth stick, can > get his head around as being a "real job", especially once you lose any > kind of dependable net connectivity. Excellent rant. Hang on while I file off the serial number... Say, are you running under your real name, or are you eponymously honoring the Stainless Steel Rat? Just curious. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Tue Dec 19 04:45:23 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 05:45:23 -0500 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1166525124.19524.356.camel@linux.site> On Mon, 2006-12-18 at 12:19 -0700, Richard wrote: > In article <007701c722d6$5076fef0$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, > "Jay West" writes: > > > You wrote.... > > > That was me, but I've been informed by my fellow users from the period > > > that it was actually a 2000! Sheesh, I feel stupid :-). > > > > Tell me a bit about the system you used, and perhaps I can help. > > [...] > > What I remember is that it logged you into a timesharing BASIC > environment. I remember that the standard library had a set of > programs that would teach you BASIC, called TUT01 through TUT25. They > were tutorials in the BASIC language. I imagine that this was a > standard software library that shipped with all the HP minis of the > time. I don't recall anything really about the operating environment > beyond that. I only used the HP for a few months before moving over > to the 11/70 and using BASIC-PLUS, but the HP is where I taught myself > to program with those TUTxx programs. The first computer I ever used was an HP 200B, TimeShare BASIC. The notable thing about the log-in accounts was that they were all of the pattern annn where a=alphabetic and n=numeric. The "A-triple-zero" account, A000, was the Master Account, and files saved by that user were accessible as read-only for all users. And, when user A000 saved a BASIC program named "HELLO," that program was run automatically at log-in for every user. Our HELLO program was very cool... eventually. Any other letter, followed by three zeros, was a Group Account, and files saved by that account were read-only for any other account starting with the same letter, i.e., other group members. Regular users had an account that was not zero in the numeric part; ours was H455. That account structuring scheme was odd enough that if you remember it, you were almost certainly in the HP2000 realm... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From djg at pdp8.net Tue Dec 19 06:37:35 2006 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 07:37:35 -0500 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor Message-ID: <200612191237.kBJCbZ724298@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> >>If you wanted to convert from WPS-8 to WordPerfect, then I >>could offer my code at http://srv.net/~kth . > FYI: I got connection refused just now when trying to access your site. I modified your software to convert 8" WPS floppies dumped with my dump/restore programs and should still work with 5 1/4 dumped with putr. The conversion to word actually worked the best. It really converts to wordperfect but when going through the word converter it uses some later version codes to do better formatting. ftp://ftp.pdp8.net/software/wps/ ftp://ftp.pdp8.net/software/dumprest/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 19 09:26:17 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 09:26:17 -0600 Subject: HP 2000F' References: Message-ID: <00e201c72382$08a8f680$6500a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote.... >> OK, after asking around my colleagues from the day, we're narrowing in >> on the conclusion that it was most likely an HP 2000F or 200F'. Could you share what makes you think it was 2000F'? Sometimes the differences between the versions are pretty minute... >> How rare are these puppies? Extremely. To my knowledge (and I've searched far and wide - including outside the US), I have the only known HP2000 TSB systems running. I do know of one other collector who is fairly close to getting one up though, last I talked to him. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 19 09:30:15 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 09:30:15 -0600 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia References: <1166525124.19524.356.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <00e901c72382$96a3db30$6500a8c0@BILLING> It was written... > The first computer I ever used was an HP 200B, TimeShare BASIC. 2000B I guess you mean? > The > notable thing about the log-in accounts was that they were all of the > pattern annn where a=alphabetic and n=numeric. The "A-triple-zero" > account, A000, was the Master Account, and files saved by that user were > accessible as read-only for all users. And, when user A000 saved a > BASIC program named "HELLO," that program was run automatically at > log-in for every user. Our HELLO program was very cool... eventually. > That's all definitely from the HP2000 TSB OS. > Any other letter, followed by three zeros, was a Group Account, and > files saved by that account were read-only for any other account > starting with the same letter, i.e., other group members. Regular users > had an account that was not zero in the numeric part; ours was H455. > That account structuring scheme was odd enough that if you remember it, > you were almost certainly in the HP2000 realm... I don't believe you were using 2000B then, as I don't believe 2000B had the group account feature. You've certainly ruled out 2000E by that statement. Jay West From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Dec 19 09:34:59 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:34:59 -0500 Subject: HP 2000F' In-Reply-To: <00e201c72382$08a8f680$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <00e201c72382$08a8f680$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <20061219153459.GA15551@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> On Tue, Dec 19, 2006 at 09:26:17AM -0600, Jay West wrote: > Richard wrote.... > >>OK, after asking around my colleagues from the day, we're narrowing in > >>on the conclusion that it was most likely an HP 2000F or 200F'. > >>How rare are these puppies? > Extremely. To my knowledge (and I've searched far and wide - including > outside the US), I have the only known HP2000 TSB systems running. I do > know of one other collector who is fairly close to getting one up though, > last I talked to him. What Jay doesn't say is that he's been hoarding the systems, and really has a warehouse full of them, and is putting them on eBay at $5-10k each just for dkdkk to bid on. ;) J/K, but Jay, it's amazing that only 2-3 of those machines still exist. No museums have any of those? (Or, are there others, just not in a runable state?) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 19 11:02:18 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:02:18 -0700 Subject: LA50 ink cartridges Message-ID: Item #270070599391 on ebay I've bought from this guy before and always been satisfied. He even went out of his way to replace some items for me that were damaged during shipment. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 19 11:10:18 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 11:10:18 -0600 Subject: HP 2000F' References: <00e201c72382$08a8f680$6500a8c0@BILLING> <20061219153459.GA15551@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> Message-ID: <01a301c72390$90722150$6500a8c0@BILLING> Patrick wrote.... > What Jay doesn't say is that he's been hoarding the systems, and really > has a warehouse full of them, and is putting them on eBay at $5-10k each > just for dkdkk to bid on. ;) Actually, I do have the parts to build a few more of them - and have been offered rather enticing sums of money to do so from several people who are not on the list. That being said, I'm having trouble defying physics and creating enough time to persue doing so. I have my own machines I need to consolidate & restore first. > J/K, but Jay, it's amazing that only 2-3 of those machines still exist. > No museums have any of those? (Or, are there others, just not in a > runable state?) I did say "running"... I'm not aware of any that actually are running. But it's not quite as hairsplitting as it sounds, because there's more to it than just having the correct hardware running... I am aware of a few machines in museums that are likely to be HP2000 TSB systems, but one can't tell if it was really an HP2000 configuration or was it just a system running RTE. I'm fairly sure some in museums are/were TSB machines, but even those don't run to my knowledge. It's kind of an odd thing. With a few very key exceptions, an HP2000 TSB system used off-the-shelf HP hardware that was also used for other more common OS's such as RTE. Are there 21MX cpus in museums? Sure. 7900A drives? Sure. 7905/7906/7920 drives? Sure. Do people have those machines/devices running and fully operable? Sure! But do those cpu's include the special additional firmware for HP's TSB? If not, then they are the right hardware but missing a key element. Do they have the 12920/12921 mux sets? If not, no TSB can run. And more importantly, some other OS can and likely DID run on them then. So if someone has an HP2100 cpu with a running 7900A drive and paper tape reader... is it an HP2000 machine? Not without the special microcode that was required just for TSB. And the OS wouldn't run without the MUX set. So my argument is that it's really not an HP2000 if it's completely incapable of running the OS due to missing chips. If NO other OS would run on it, then I could see an argument for saying it is still an HP2000. But without those extra bits, the machine almost certainly ran some OTHER os like DACE, DOS, RTE, MTOS, etc. And one certainly couldn't call it an HP2000 TSB machine then. Jay From evan at snarc.net Tue Dec 19 11:17:56 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:17:56 -0500 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <458726D7.17136.1434D6AA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <000f01c72391$a0606350$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I checked with Frank O'Brien, who I work with at our museum (InfoAge Science Center) here in New Jersey. Frank is a researcher for the Apollo Lunar Surface Journal and is co-editor of the Apollo Flight Journal. He replied: "In 2004, there were two people who *independently* reverse engineered the guidance computer source*, and then wrote working hardware emulators. This work was then used by the gent who built actual hardware to run the code. Now, there is a not-very-well-organized effort to create an Apollo Guidance Computer (AGC) using Field-Programmable Grid Arrays (FPGA's). FPGA's allow you to create logic designs using high level design software, and the "burn" the logic into the chip. In a sense, this is the step after breadboarding, and before a chip gets mass produced. All the best, Frank *Some of the source was unreadable, so it was recreated by playing with memory checksums until the values worked out. Talk about dedication!" I hope that's helpful! - Evan -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 2:40 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer On 18 Dec 2006 at 23:47, Richard wrote: > I've seen this before; has anyone on cctalk built one? Looks like a labor of love. But, given that the original uses RTL and core, what's the point of building one in LSTTL? Why not use an FPGA? It'd be no more or less authentic. Or perhaps just write a simulator to run on your PeeCee? What's remarkable about the original is the size (2 cu. ft.) and the modularity and serviceability. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 19 11:22:34 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:22:34 -0700 Subject: HP 2000F' In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Dec 2006 09:26:17 -0600. <00e201c72382$08a8f680$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <00e201c72382$08a8f680$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > Richard wrote.... > >> OK, after asking around my colleagues from the day, we're narrowing in > >> on the conclusion that it was most likely an HP 2000F or 200F'. > Could you share what makes you think it was 2000F'? The concensus was that we did "HEL" to login and that the accounts were , in particular X999 was the games account. (That rang a memory chord with me when it was mentioned.) It was also remembered that A000 was the "root" account on the machine. I also looked at a table of BASIC features and it seemed that the 2000F was comparable to what I remember, although I'm going on demonstrably weak memories :) and information scrounged off the net, not any definitive HP documentation I'm holding in my hands. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 19 11:26:24 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:26:24 -0700 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Dec 2006 09:30:15 -0600. <00e901c72382$96a3db30$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <00e901c72382$96a3db30$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > > Any other letter, followed by three zeros, was a Group Account, and > > files saved by that account were read-only for any other account > > starting with the same letter, i.e., other group members. Regular users > > had an account that was not zero in the numeric part; ours was H455. > > That account structuring scheme was odd enough that if you remember it, > > you were almost certainly in the HP2000 realm... > I don't believe you were using 2000B then, as I don't believe 2000B had the > group account feature. You've certainly ruled out 2000E by that statement. I think our machine had this group account a000 feature as well, but my memories have already been proved suspect :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 19 11:30:36 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:30:36 -0700 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 18 Dec 2006 23:40:07 -0800. <458726D7.17136.1434D6AA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <458726D7.17136.1434D6AA at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > But, given that the original uses RTL and core, what's the point of > building one in LSTTL? Is it even possible to build with RTL parts anymore? I guess you'd have to do it PDP-8 style with discrete transistors? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From kth at srv.net Tue Dec 19 11:52:47 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:52:47 -0700 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor In-Reply-To: <200612191237.kBJCbZ724298@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> References: <200612191237.kBJCbZ724298@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <458826EF.40609@srv.net> djg at pdp8.net wrote: >>>If you wanted to convert from WPS-8 to WordPerfect, then I >>>could offer my code at http://srv.net/~kth . >>> >>> >FYI: I got connection refused just now when trying to access your >site. > > My ISP renamed itself, so the link is now http://onewest.net/~kth >I modified your software to convert 8" WPS floppies dumped with my >dump/restore programs and should still work with 5 1/4 dumped with >putr. > >The conversion to word actually worked the best. It really converts >to wordperfect but when going through the word converter it uses some >later version codes to do better formatting. > >ftp://ftp.pdp8.net/software/wps/ >ftp://ftp.pdp8.net/software/dumprest/ > Yup, that is based on my code. I doubt there have been any changes since you grabbed a copy. I only had WordPerfect at the time, with an official copy of the WordPerfect file format, so that is why I chose it. That info is now available at http://www.wotsit.org/ I developed it up to the point that it handled my needs, but didn't try for exact formatting, just tried to keep as much of the formatting as was easy. Many documents I had to convert had strange formatting: tabs and/or spaces to force it to go to the next line, instead of a hard return (repeat for multiple blank lines); spaces instead of tabs to move to a column in a table; etc. So manual editing was always necessary. Rulers were always a pain. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 19 12:09:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:09:01 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4587BA3D.5001.16749D91@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2006 at 10:30, Richard wrote: > Is it even possible to build with RTL parts anymore? > > I guess you'd have to do it PDP-8 style with discrete transistors? That's definitely an option--doing it with SMT components could even come very close to the size of the original. There are also transistor arrays, if close matching is desired. Given that the original was modular, I wonder why the copy didn't implement that aspect. Certainly one could have each type of module on its own PCB. Core would be a different matter (can one even purchase monolithic sense amps anymore?), but a concession to modern technology might not hurt too much in that area. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 19 12:16:35 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:16:35 -0600 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia References: Message-ID: <020301c72399$d4602e30$6500a8c0@BILLING> You wrote... > I think our machine had this group account a000 feature as well, but > my memories have already been proved suspect :-). The A000 master account being the system library was true for all versions of TSB (2000A, 2000B, 2000C, 2000C', 2000F, 2000F', 2000E, and 2000/Access). However, each OTHER account that ended in 00 being a group library for that range (ie, B100 being a group library for accounts B101 through B199, etc.) was not in all versions of TSB. I know for sure it wasn't in 2000A, 2000B, and 2000E. I know for sure that it was in 2000/Access. I am not sure at all about 2000C, C', or 2000F, F'. Also, at least in 2000/Access, there was an additional mechanism besides GET-$xxx (system library), GET-*xxx (group library), and GET-xxx (local catalog)... if correct capabilities were assigned, you could also do GET-xxx.YZZZ (specify a . and then an account id) to access files in someone elses account regardless of the group you were in. This last method I had completely forgotten about, and references to it in the documentation seem a bit hidden. But it is there. Someone on the list reminded me of this a while back :) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 19 12:19:54 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:19:54 -0600 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia References: Message-ID: <020d01c7239a$4ab59b60$6500a8c0@BILLING> Someone wrote... >> > Any other letter, followed by three zeros, was a Group Account Actually, any account id that ended in TWO zeros, not three, was a group master account. At least in Access and I suspect others. >> > files saved by that account were read-only for any other account >> > starting with the same letter, i.e., other group members. Only of they were flagged as public. Otherwise, by default, they were invisible to group members. Jay From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue Dec 19 12:28:23 2006 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:28:23 -0600 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia In-Reply-To: <020301c72399$d4602e30$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <020301c72399$d4602e30$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: Yes, the GET-xxx.yzzz is there in access, but I believe it only worked if the account hosting the files had PFA (program/file access) turned on for that account in the system directory. (otherwise nobody else could access files from that account without being logged in). -Bob >You wrote... >>I think our machine had this group account a000 feature as well, but >>my memories have already been proved suspect :-). > >The A000 master account being the system library was true for all >versions of TSB (2000A, 2000B, 2000C, 2000C', 2000F, 2000F', 2000E, >and 2000/Access). > >However, each OTHER account that ended in 00 being a group library >for that range (ie, B100 being a group library for accounts B101 >through B199, etc.) was not in all versions of TSB. I know for sure >it wasn't in 2000A, 2000B, and 2000E. I know for sure that it was in >2000/Access. I am not sure at all about 2000C, C', or 2000F, F'. > >Also, at least in 2000/Access, there was an additional mechanism >besides GET-$xxx (system library), GET-*xxx (group library), and >GET-xxx (local catalog)... if correct capabilities were assigned, >you could also do GET-xxx.YZZZ (specify a . and then an account id) >to access files in someone elses account regardless of the group you >were in. This last method I had completely forgotten about, and >references to it in the documentation seem a bit hidden. But it is >there. Someone on the list reminded me of this a while back :) > >Jay -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 19 12:46:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:46:48 -0800 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia In-Reply-To: <020301c72399$d4602e30$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: , <020301c72399$d4602e30$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4587C318.17942.16973513@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2006 at 12:16, Jay West wrote: > Also, at least in 2000/Access, there was an additional mechanism besides > GET-$xxx (system library), GET-*xxx (group library), and GET-xxx (local > catalog)... if correct capabilities were assigned, you could also do > GET-xxx.YZZZ (specify a . and then an account id) to access files in someone > elses account regardless of the group you were in. This last method I had > completely forgotten about, and references to it in the documentation seem a > bit hidden. But it is there. Someone on the list reminded me of this a while > back :) ...all of which reminds me about the first time I showed a very bright 7 year old girl the Altair 8800 within a couple of years after building it. She said "This is a COMPUTER? (eyes wide)" She went to the terminal and typed: HELLO MY NAME IS AMY. WHAT IS YOUR NAME? CP/M, of course, could make nothing of this. Computer engineers would do well to observe the expectations of small children when designing interfaces. Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Dec 19 13:01:46 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 11:01:46 -0800 Subject: Interesting decompiler Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036650@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> On Sat, 2006-12-16 at 13:35 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 15, 2006, at 10:18 PM, Chris M wrote: > > Is it a *recent* development of compilers that as an > > intermediate step the source code will first be > > reduced to assembler mnemonics, before being reduced > > to object code? > > Absolutely not. The UNIX world, at least, has been doing it that > way for decades. Right. Also, from the micro world, two words: Small C. I love the approach. Among other benefits, it allows one to write something in C to get the algorithm correct, and then re-write and/or optimize the generated assembly to speed up inner loops, and frequently executed code, as needed. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- Most of the early compilers at CDC worked this way. The intermediate language was assembly and could be used to clean up the final code. It could be saved as a separate file and also be used as sub-routines. It was a very fast way to create a compiler. Then there was another method called interpreters, where final machine code never really exists. The compiler generates a list of psuedo ops that would be executed by a series of macros. Was fast to write, but incredibly ineffecient. And there was a really fascinating one on the IBM 1401 that kept the high level langauage in the core, and brought in sequential routines from the tape unit. Each rountine would perform one process on the source. At the end, what remained in core was the machine language program. It was a true single pass compiler. But it worked in serial mode, bringing in each routine in order (63 different ones, if I remember correctly) even if wasn't needed. It was probably the slowest compiler I ever worked with, but the concept was interesting. Billy From jtp at chinalake.com Tue Dec 19 13:03:55 2006 From: jtp at chinalake.com (JTP) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:03:55 -0500 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <200612190731.kBJ7V5UL037655@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001c723a0$6ec237b0$db64c80a@prozac> A number of years ago I had some luck making rollers using two methods: (1) Use a double punch to punch out thin doughnuts of rubber--too thick deforms on punch. Stack them on the shaft tacking them with a very small amount of silicon or urethane glue. Mount in chuck of drill press and turn slowly against stones of different coarsenesses to smooth the surface. You may need to fiddle with the speed to get a good finish. This method usually requires that you can somehow cap the top and bottom of the roller, especially if the doughnut is wide. (2) Cast a new roller using urethane or silicon. Mount the shaft, or tube that represents the inner diameter, in a drill press. Using an n-way machining vise, center the outer tube with the inner shaft. Pour in goo, lower inner shaft into goo using the press handle and fine tune the positioning with the vise if needed. I turn the shaft a few times to get the goo the settle and air to vacate. Let harden, remove with plunger, heat or cold. Trim as needed. For outer casings, I've used pvc and copper tubes, but the smoothest results are with a machined and polished steel tube, open at the bottom to help push the roller out. For one roller that would not stick to the shaft, I milled several grooves in the shaft and repoured. This kept the rubber from turning. -jim From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Dec 19 13:54:25 2006 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:54:25 -0500 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: References: <20061217074049.3c605278@bluto.i16.net> Message-ID: <20061219145425.08e66314@bluto.i16.net> On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 12:01:51 -0700 Richard wrote: > > In article <20061217074049.3c605278 at bluto.i16.net>, > "James B. DiGriz" writes: > > > Ob-cc: Wanted, recommendations on affordable, decent-quality steel > > storage buildings, in the 2000-10000 sq. ft. range. Plus shelving, > > workbench systems, etc. First responder please change subject > > heading. > > What about a Quonset Hut? I see them for sale at the State Fair here > in Utah and they seem pretty cheap, relatively speaking. That could work, and not too hard to put in an upper deck. Not the most efficient use of covered space, though. There's one a few hundred yards from where I sit in the house some friends are moving into. (Just put a second coat on their bedroom floor.) They ordered it some years ago but the deal fell through and a neighbor bought it. Looks nice with the front all bricked in but it's full of his cars, not my computers. Must be nice, is all I can say. My cars are in somebodies impound/salvage yard. First they steal them from you, then they want $1,000's to get them back. Again, must be nice. I should go into politics and distributing contraband, too, I guess. :-) I once worked for a warehouse distributor who had a 2-story steel addition built on to their downtown Savannah warehouse. (You should have heard the hue and cry from the Historic Review Board. Ironically you can now find nothing but lawyer's offices, condos, trendy shops, etc. in a part of town that was once filled with train depots, livery stables, etc. and later auto repair shops, dealerships, upholstery shops, body shops, machine shops, etc. for the better part of 150 years.) This was new construction, but he got a good deal on it, and I remember we went to J-ville to load up a semi-trailer or two with used shelving and racks from a warehouse that had closed. Oddly enough, there was the shot-up wreck of a Curtiss P-40 sitting in there that somebody was preparing to restore. This was in '85 or so, when the girls in the office upstairs were using a Tandy Mod 12 with dual 8" drives to do the payroll and accounts. About a year before we got the Altos 3086 and us peon counter people got terminals. :-) Oh, yeah, the root password was initially ""!. Runtime Xenix system with no dev tools, but I got some useful shell scripts written until the vendor gave the boss a good shot of paranoia. Probably because I was the one who warned him about the dangers of an un-passworded root account available on about 30 terminals all across town. like they say, no good deed goes unpunished. Thanks for the response, jbdigriz From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 19 14:03:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 13:03:43 -0700 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:54:25 -0500. <20061219145425.08e66314@bluto.i16.net> Message-ID: Also, Henk has some pictures on his PDP site of the building he constructed on his property in Holland. However, I don't know if this would be "cheap" to do here. Its more like a command bunker! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 19 12:54:43 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:54:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03664E@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> from "Billy Pettit" at Dec 18, 6 05:18:17 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > and you will need a service manual for the machine (but hey, do you = > really > have a machine that you don't have the service manual for?). > -tony=20 > > Yes, many machines. I can buy a new VCR/DVD combination for $89 with a = > one > year warrenty. Why would I want to waste a weekend repairing a worn out > VCR? That is time much better spent playing with my own designs, = Well, let's see... I can either spend $10 on a set of rubber parts and take an afternoon putting them in (at which point, said VCR will be good for another 2 years) or I can spend $89 and take an afternoon going to the shop, bringing a new unit home, and figuring out how to connect it up and use it. At which point I have a device assembled with lead-free solder, soldered at too low a temperature, so it gets dry joints within a few months. With plastic mechanical parts made from the cheapest plastic imaginable that make a freebie toy look solid. I'd be lucky if that $89 machine lasted for a couple of weeks after the warrenty period... Now guess which I am going to do... -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 19 14:14:34 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:14:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 19, 2006 01:03:43 PM Message-ID: <200612192014.kBJKEYL6006392@onyx.spiritone.com> > Also, Henk has some pictures on his PDP site of the building he > constructed on his property in Holland. However, I don't know if this > would be "cheap" to do here. Its more like a command bunker! Somehow I think that would cost a small fortune. I don't know how it works out for something like that, but we are being told to estimate about $250 per square foot for new contruction, if that is the route we go for a project I'm involved with. I'm not sure what size the original poster is looking for, but around here it is possible to get some pretty nice looking prefab "sheds" varying in size from a small garden shed, up to fairly decent size. Or there is always the option of getting old Freight containers (the type they use on cargo ships). Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 19 12:57:08 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:57:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: KRQ50/RRD40 problems In-Reply-To: <000001c72319$34e69630$cb01010a@Rhyme> from "Robert Armstrong" at Dec 18, 6 06:55:55 pm Message-ID: > > >Probably not a lot of help, but if that interface is the same physically > >as the DA15 connector on other Philips/LMS CD-ROMs, I have the service > >manual for the CDD462. It's little more than a schematic and an > >incomplete parts list (the CDD462 is based on an audio CD-player, and > >you're expected to have the service manual for that!), but it would > >contain the interface pinout. Let me know if you want me to dig it out. > > Maybe - I don't suppose it describes any DIP switches on the back of the No, on the grounds that the CDD462 doesn't have any DIP switches ;-). There are some jumper links on the ISA interface card to set the base address, DMA channel amd interrupt line, but they are pretty obvious. > drive? The actual drive in the RRD40 is a Laser Magnetics CM 201, so it's > unlikely that they'd be the same, but you never know. I think I may have a little info on the SCSI version of that drive, but that's no help either... -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Dec 19 15:23:05 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:23:05 -0300 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer References: >, <458726D7.17136.1434D6AA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <09b301c723b4$929aea60$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> I've seen this before; has anyone on cctalk built one? > Looks like a labor of love. > But, given that the original uses RTL and core, what's the point of > building one in LSTTL? Why not use an FPGA? It'd be no more or less > authentic. Or perhaps just write a simulator to run on your PeeCee? > What's remarkable about the original is the size (2 cu. ft.) and the > modularity and serviceability. The answer is "Fun". I see no point into building an Altair using old components. BTW, I see no point into building an Altair, but this kit is something I'd like to buy (no way, I'm in Brazil!) because: - It is beautiful - It is fun - It is a kit, and I love to build kits (did I said I love build kits?) and you can't find kits to build in Brazil - It is hackeable, all the gates are there in my hand - It is fun - It is beautiful - It is a labour of love - I love blinkenlights - It is fun - Did I said it is fun? - It is something I'll proudly show to my friends, sons and like, and tell "when I began, people programmed like this" - It is fun! So, there is no rational for building something old, as there is no rational into collecting or using something old. If you follow this way, you may think that: - Build an Altair? Better use newer components! - Newer components? I can build the entire box into a simple CPLD! - CPLD? Why? I can emulate that on PC! - Emulate an Altair? Why the hell would I want to use it?!?! As you can see, using is the least fun of all the adventure. The journey is the reward! Greetings Alexandre Souza http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Dec 19 14:31:48 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 21:31:48 +0100 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45884C34.90204@bluewin.ch> Richard wrote: > Also, Henk has some pictures on his PDP site of the building he > constructed on his property in Holland. However, I don't know if this > would be "cheap" to do here. Its more like a command bunker! I am very sure that it was not cheap in Holland either ! Talk about dedication ... Jos From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 19 12:57:08 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:57:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: KRQ50/RRD40 problems In-Reply-To: <000001c72319$34e69630$cb01010a@Rhyme> from "Robert Armstrong" at Dec 18, 6 06:55:55 pm Message-ID: > > >Probably not a lot of help, but if that interface is the same physically > >as the DA15 connector on other Philips/LMS CD-ROMs, I have the service > >manual for the CDD462. It's little more than a schematic and an > >incomplete parts list (the CDD462 is based on an audio CD-player, and > >you're expected to have the service manual for that!), but it would > >contain the interface pinout. Let me know if you want me to dig it out. > > Maybe - I don't suppose it describes any DIP switches on the back of the No, on the grounds that the CDD462 doesn't have any DIP switches ;-). There are some jumper links on the ISA interface card to set the base address, DMA channel amd interrupt line, but they are pretty obvious. > drive? The actual drive in the RRD40 is a Laser Magnetics CM 201, so it's > unlikely that they'd be the same, but you never know. I think I may have a little info on the SCSI version of that drive, but that's no help either... -tony From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 19 14:26:49 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 13:26:49 -0700 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:54:43 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Now guess which I am going to do... That's a trick question, isn't it? Because we all know that you'd rather spend your afternoons soldering some old piece of equipment. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Dec 19 15:49:52 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:49:52 -0300 Subject: Storage Buildings References: <200612192014.kBJKEYL6006392@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <09d701c723b7$a10e3a40$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Or there is always the option of getting old Freight containers (the type > they use on cargo ships). And get fried by the heat :) Dunno why in USA building is so expensive, here everything for building is so cheap :) The labour is expensive, but a shed is nothing hard to do with help of a friend. From jplist at kiwigeek.com Tue Dec 19 14:54:43 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:54:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: <200612192014.kBJKEYL6006392@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Or there is always the option of getting old Freight containers (the type > they use on cargo ships). I don't have much to add - but my father uses 40' shipping containers for storage back in New Zealand (mostly for cars, but I think his set of RP04s are stored in one at the moment). He paid about $3000NZ for each container, which were both a little rusty but still completely waterproof. If memory serves he flattened the land with a payloader to compact it, laid a simple cinderblock foundation, and filled in the rest of the area with gravel to provide water drainage and then just set the containers on the cinderblocks to keep them a few inches above the ground. He's quite pleased with them - but his property is fairly heavy with trees, so it's not as obvious that he has a couple rows of rather ugly rust red shipping containers from the road. Anyways, for what it's worth. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 19 15:02:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 13:02:06 -0800 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036650@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036650@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <4587E2CE.6907.17130F68@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2006 at 11:01, Billy Pettit wrote: > Most of the early compilers at CDC worked this way. The intermediate > language was assembly and could be used to clean up the final code. It > could be saved as a separate file and also be used as sub-routines. It was > a very fast way to create a compiler. While there was a command-line option to use COMPASS to perform the assembly pass, both RUN and FTN (at least prior to 4.0) by default used their own "cheap and dirty" internal assemblers. I believe that the deck in FTN was called FTNXAS, or some such. Very few headaches there--I spent most of my aspirin debugging the COMMON/EQUIVALENCE statement processor (a state machine made up of a pile of ASSIGNed GOTOs) with very little commentary. RUN did have a neat feature of allowing you to stack a mixed deck of FORTRAN and COMPASS modules. The compiler would read the first card and if it saw IDENT or some such, pass control to COMPASS, which would, after assembly, pass control back to RUN. Cheers, Chuck > > Then there was another method called interpreters, where final machine code > never really exists. The compiler generates a list of psuedo ops that would > be executed by a series of macros. Was fast to write, but incredibly > ineffecient. > > And there was a really fascinating one on the IBM 1401 that kept the high > level langauage in the core, and brought in sequential routines from the > tape unit. Each rountine would perform one process on the source. At the > end, what remained in core was the machine language program. It was a true > single pass compiler. But it worked in serial mode, bringing in each > routine in order (63 different ones, if I remember correctly) even if wasn't > needed. > > It was probably the slowest compiler I ever worked with, but the concept was > interesting. > > Billy From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Dec 19 15:16:13 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:16:13 -0500 Subject: Storage Buildings References: <200612192014.kBJKEYL6006392@onyx.spiritone.com> <09d701c723b7$a10e3a40$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <006001c723b2$ea672e90$0b01a8c0@game> Has anybody looked into those custom made metal buildings that are popular these days? A computer collector would need to get them insulated (if you live in a cold part of the country) and heated/cooled plus have some power brought it. I would think the floors would need to be concrete and sealed to keep moisture out. Sounds kind of pricey for a hobby to me. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 19 15:18:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 13:18:48 -0800 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: <09d701c723b7$a10e3a40$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <200612192014.kBJKEYL6006392@onyx.spiritone.com>, <09d701c723b7$a10e3a40$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <4587E6B8.13595.172259FB@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2006 at 18:49, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Dunno why in USA building is so expensive, here everything for building > is so cheap :) The labour is expensive, but a shed is nothing hard to do > with help of a friend. Permits, inspections, codes all make for putting up anything more than a meter tall very expensive. Out here in Oregon, the cheapest structure is a "pole barn"; essentially large creosote-soaked poles sunk into the ground, then usually sheathed and roofed in steel. Since it's viewed as an agricultural building, a basic form ifiled with the county is the only requirement. If one lives in a development, CCR's (Codes, covenants and restrictions) may apply to anything more than the color of your doormat. But the subject of shipping containers brought up thoughts of this: http://www.sun.com/emrkt/blackbox/scenarios.jsp Cheers, Chuck From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Dec 19 15:27:27 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 22:27:27 +0100 Subject: I8008 / Scelbal Message-ID: <4588593F.2020104@bluewin.ch> Those interested in running Scelbal, the old Basic for the Scelbi-8 8008 based system, can download the following file :( windows executable, ca 6.5 M ) http://mypage.bluewin.ch/dreesen/I8008.zip It is an emulation of a 8008 machine I might build, (Time Permitting...), and comes with very a very terse help in the form of the "scelbal.txt" file. This tells you how to start Scelbal. The emulator is rather crude, but was only intended as a proof of concept. Some source code is provided. Looking through the Scelbal source code really shows you how limited the i8008 is. You need 8K to implement a Basic that is on a par with a 4K TRS80 Basic... You are forever shuffling around pointers, incrementing and decrementing them "by hand" . Jos Dreesen From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 19 15:25:58 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:25:58 -0700 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:21:38 -0500. Message-ID: Since I was asked, "Henk's building" I was referring to can be found by going to and selecting "the making of..." link in the left frame. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 19 15:22:11 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:22:11 -0700 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:16:13 -0500. <006001c723b2$ea672e90$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: In article <006001c723b2$ea672e90$0b01a8c0 at game>, "Teo Zenios" writes: > Has anybody looked into those custom made metal buildings that are popular > these days? I'm not sure what you mean... > A computer collector would need to get them insulated (if you > live in a cold part of the country) and heated/cooled plus have some power > brought it. I would think the floors would need to be concrete and sealed to > keep moisture out. Sounds kind of pricey for a hobby to me. I think the way you keep down costs of this as a hobbyist is to do the labor yourself. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 19 15:38:43 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:38:43 -0600 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: <4587E6B8.13595.172259FB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200612192014.kBJKEYL6006392@onyx.spiritone.com>, <09d701c723b7$a10e3a40$f0fea8c0@alpha> <4587E6B8.13595.172259FB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45885BE3.5080303@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Dec 2006 at 18:49, Alexandre Souza wrote: > >> Dunno why in USA building is so expensive, here everything for building >> is so cheap :) The labour is expensive, but a shed is nothing hard to do >> with help of a friend. > > Permits, inspections, codes all make for putting up anything more > than a meter tall very expensive. I expect that's the case in most countries. Doubtless many of us are sufficiently engineering-minded that we could put up something ourselves (or at the very least assemble something from a kit), but it's all the rules and regulations which are the killer (and it least in the UK, can take months too). > Out here in Oregon, the cheapest > structure is a "pole barn"; essentially large creosote-soaked poles > sunk into the ground, then usually sheathed and roofed in steel. > Since it's viewed as an agricultural building In the UK I think you can often get away with building things out of wood rather than brick / steel as it's then viewed as a temporary structure and so the necessary planning permission's a lot easier. Obviously that's not likely to work in the US as major structures are often made of wood anyway :-) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 19 16:03:20 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:03:20 -0600 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <458861A8.7080909@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I can either spend $10 on a set of rubber parts and take an afternoon > putting them in (at which point, said VCR will be good for another 2 > years) Only two years? I'd be surprised if typical use wouldn't let it last for a lot longer than that, say five at least. > or I can spend $89 and take an afternoon going to the shop, > bringing a new unit home, and figuring out how to connect it up and use > it. At which point I have a device assembled with lead-free solder, > soldered at too low a temperature, so it gets dry joints within a few > months. With plastic mechanical parts made from the cheapest plastic > imaginable that make a freebie toy look solid. I'd be lucky if that $89 > machine lasted for a couple of weeks after the warrenty period... Absolutely. I need to sort my player out actually, as it's started not rewinding the tapes all the way back in before ejecting them, but I'd much rather figure out how to service it myself and get the parts than I would get a completely new one. Time is not free - but the choices tend to boil down to: 1) Take older well-built product which does exactly what I need, and spend a small sum in parts and maybe four hours of time to make it good for another five years. 2) Spend a larger sum and eight hours of time shopping around for a replacement (which probably *doesn't* do exactly what I need), then throwing it out and repeating the exercise ad-nauseum every couple of years because it's virtually impossible to service the modern version. That's without the environmental issues; the amount of good-quality repairable stuff which just gets thrown into a hole in the ground really p*sses me off - but that's another story :) There are parallels with all sorts of goods, whether technical or not. For anyone reasonably capable at doing general repairs to things, the second option just doesn't add up in the long run. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 19 16:17:25 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:17:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061219141622.E78437@shell.lmi.net> What kind of mortar would work best for making a small building, using generic PCs as bricks? From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 19 16:20:35 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:20:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <458861A8.7080909@yahoo.co.uk> References: <458861A8.7080909@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061219141916.L78437@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: [VCR] > Only two years? I'd be surprised if typical use wouldn't let it last for a lot > longer than that, say five at least. How long do VCRs last when used continuously with a Corvus board in an Apple][? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 19 16:26:05 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:26:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036650@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <20061219222605.73243.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Are there any glaring instances of compiler packages where this isn't the case (where the source code gets compiled directly into object code)? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 19 16:31:03 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:31:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: <45884C34.90204@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <90515.22690.qm@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I built a metal building for my airplane. It took about two weeks, but I did it alone. Total cost was $3300. It's 36' wide by 32' long. You can bargain with the building companies and they have sales all the time. It was like dealing with a used car salesman. Photos of the construction are here: http://www.dvq.com/bdoon/hangar/ Bob From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 19 16:37:35 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:37:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Targa/TIGA/??? was Re: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: <45871E60.1070605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <260629.82649.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Leonard wrote: > Kelly Leavitt wrote: > > I remeber the AT&T TARGA. Output was to a RGB > monitor. Input via tablet with a puck and a wand. > They had it running on a Wyse PC/286. I wrote a > converter to the Amiga IFF and PC GIF, but I can't > find the source any more. > > I worked on one of those; some small investigation > showed that the .TGA > files were 16-bit raw with a header (ie. no > compression). Can't > remember if it was 5-5-5 or 5-6-5 but would be very > easy to test based > on the output of the converter... So no one can confirm if the thing used the 34010 or not? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 16:40:08 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:40:08 -0500 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: <20061219141622.E78437@shell.lmi.net> References: <20061219141622.E78437@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45886A48.1080302@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > What kind of mortar would work best for making a small building, > using generic PCs as bricks? Molten bronze maybe? Peace... Sridhar From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 19 16:45:34 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:45:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* Message-ID: <20061219224534.85028.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> WHAT THE MAC MIGHT HAVE BEEN reads the caption. I haven't spent much time with muh Cat (that Cat anyway ;), so I can't rightly say whether it featured any enhancements over the old skool Macs. Certainly not in drive capacity. I thoroughly welcome comments though. http://cgi.ebay.com/Canon-Cat-Computer-What-the-Mac-Might-Have-Been_W0QQitemZ140065192665QQihZ004QQcategoryZ51046QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem these things are seemingly pretty rare though. It boggles me when I think that IIRC 20,000 or so were made. Who would have the heart to throw one out! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 19 16:51:33 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:51:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance Message-ID: <200612192251.kBJMpXtU065963@keith.ezwind.net> --- Tony Duell wrote: **>> snip <<** > > Well, let's see... > > I can either spend $10 on a set of rubber parts an d > take an afternoon > putting them in (at which point, said VCR will be > good for another 2 > years) or I can spend $89 and take an afternoon > going to the shop, > bringing a new unit home, and figuring out how to > connect it up and use > it. At which point I have a device assembled with > lead-free solder, > soldered at too low a temperature, so it gets dry > joints within a few > months. With plastic mechanical parts made from th e > cheapest plastic > imaginable that make a freebie toy look solid. I'd > be lucky if that $89 > machine lasted for a couple of weeks after the > warrenty period... > > Now guess which I am going to do... > > -tony > That's a very good point. Just out of interest, my dad still has the first VCR VHS recorder he bought around 1979 (no typo). It's very heavy, largely due to the fact that it's all mechanisms and levers inside. (No I don't have the model name/number at hand - I believe it's been put in the attic) It was working fine up until around 1998/9 when it wouldn't record very well anymore. i believe that's when we got our first modern VHS recorder. The new one lasted 3 or 4 years before it started playing up (won't rewind tape without messing it up, but plays/records fine!) and my parents got another one. The one my brother bought around 2001 works ok, but is hardly used. Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From trag at io.com Tue Dec 19 16:54:48 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:54:48 -0600 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <200612192223.kBJMNlDS050166@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612192223.kBJMNlDS050166@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 10:30:36 -0700 >From: Richard >In article <458726D7.17136.1434D6AA at cclist.sydex.com>, > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > >> But, given that the original uses RTL and core, what's the point of >> building one in LSTTL? > >Is it even possible to build with RTL parts anymore? > >I guess you'd have to do it PDP-8 style with discrete transistors? Is there a guide somewhere to the different families of logic, such as RTL, TTL, LSTTL (never heard of that one) and CMOS? I was choosing some simple logic components for my IIfx SIMM project the other day and was somewhat bewildered by the choice of input/output levels. Also, some are Schmidt Triggered? My understanding extends to the idea that there are differences in how they (at what voltage) interpret the low and high states but beyond that, I'm ignorant. Anyway, before I go on a Google hunt (which will probably turn up all the surplus electronics suppliers and pricegrabber links first) does anyone already know of a nice educational source on the topic? Jeff Walther From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 19 16:57:09 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:57:09 -0600 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <20061219141916.L78437@shell.lmi.net> References: <458861A8.7080909@yahoo.co.uk> <20061219141916.L78437@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45886E45.60007@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > [VCR] >> Only two years? I'd be surprised if typical use wouldn't let it last for a lot >> longer than that, say five at least. > > How long do VCRs last when used continuously with a Corvus board in an > Apple][? No idea really :) I suppose I'd expect a VCR to do maybe 1000 hours or something before needing some kind of service (other than just cleaning the heads). Maybe it's comparable to something like a QIC drive (in that there are parallels in terms of tape making contact with head assembly, belt drive, various rubber parts that may be prone to wear etc.). It'd be interesting to know what the expected lifetime for such a drive was for the head / pulleys / belt etc. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 19 17:08:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:08:19 -0800 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: <20061219141622.E78437@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20061219141622.E78437@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <45880063.22505.17869E10@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2006 at 14:17, Fred Cisin wrote: > What kind of mortar would work best for making a small building, > using generic PCs as bricks? (cleverly merging two post topics) How about the "goo" from old tape drive pinch rollers? Cheers, Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Dec 19 17:01:49 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:01:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: References: <200612192223.kBJMNlDS050166@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200612192309.SAA23983@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Is there a guide somewhere to the different families of logic, such > as RTL, TTL, LSTTL (never heard of that one) LSTTL = Low-power Schottky TTL: basically, TTL done with low-power Schottky technology. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schottky_barrier has more than you probably want to know about what Schottky means as applied to semiconductor logic.) > Also, some are Schmidt Triggered? (Schmitt, I think.) I suspect most logic families have something functionally equivalent to Schmitt triggers (inputs with hysteresis). As for a guide to the families, I can't help much there. I know that there exists CMOS which is signal-level-compatible with TTL (I think they're the 74HCT parts), but that's about where my knowledge ends. You might also add ECL to your list. It stands for Emitter-Coupled Logic, and I have gained the impression that it's fast and power-hungry, but further deponent sayeth not. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 19 17:09:36 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 23:09:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <458861A8.7080909@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 19, 6 04:03:20 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I can either spend $10 on a set of rubber parts and take an afternoon > > putting them in (at which point, said VCR will be good for another 2 > > years) > > Only two years? I'd be surprised if typical use wouldn't let it last for a lot > longer than that, say five at least. According to most VCR service manuals (which most users never read...) you're supposed to do a clean & inspection every year (of normal use). I find it's worth replacing at least the pinch roller every couple of years. > Absolutely. I need to sort my player out actually, as it's started not > rewinding the tapes all the way back in before ejecting them, but I'd much How old is it? If it's old enough to use a reel-drive idler, that would be the first thing I'd look at... As an aside, am I the only person who likes the Philips V2000 machines? Only one rubber part (the pinch roller), 5 motors (direct drive to the capstan, head drump, each reel, and a loading motor to pull the tape round the head drum). No back tension band either -- back tension is provided by passing a suitable current trhough the rewind motor. Oh yes, heads on piexo-actuators with a servo system to actually follow the tracks on the tape. So no tracking problems, and noise-free freeze-fram (without a digital framestore). ObCC. The machine I have is controlled by an 8048 microcontroller. According to the manual there was a diagnostic tool which consisted of an EPROM (cotnents, alas, unknown) and address latch that you clipped onto the 8048. It pulled the EA pin high, disabling the intenral ROM (wich cotnained the normal firmware to run the thing) and got the processor to run the code from the external EPROM. Neat! > rather figure out how to service it myself and get the parts than I would get > a completely new one. I doubt I'll have a manual, but what is the make and model? > > Time is not free - but the choices tend to boil down to: My time is free, or at least nobody will pay me for it. So I might as well use it for something. > > 1) Take older well-built product which does exactly what I need, and spend a > small sum in parts and maybe four hours of time to make it good for another > five years. > > 2) Spend a larger sum and eight hours of time shopping around for a > replacement (which probably *doesn't* do exactly what I need), then throwing > it out and repeating the exercise ad-nauseum every couple of years because > it's virtually impossible to service the modern version. > > That's without the environmental issues; the amount of good-quality repairable > stuff which just gets thrown into a hole in the ground really p*sses me off - > but that's another story :) I agree with you 100% on all points. -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Dec 19 18:05:20 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 21:05:20 -0300 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance References: <458861A8.7080909@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <0a5901c723cb$3284dd90$f0fea8c0@alpha> > 1) Take older well-built product which does exactly what I need, and spend > a small sum in parts and maybe four hours of time to make it good for > another five years. That is what I do with my old (and trustworthy) HP Laserjet 4 Plus. I have rollers, gears, motor, lots of spare parts, since I see no replacement for it. Half a million pages, 7000 prints/cartridge and still ticking, thanks! :o) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 19 17:13:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 23:13:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <200612192251.kBJMpXtU065963@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Dec 19, 6 04:51:33 pm Message-ID: > Just out of interest, my dad still has the first > VCR VHS recorder he bought around 1979 (no Oh, a newcomer :-) I still have (in working condition) a pair of Philips N1500 machines dating from 1972. They've had new belts, but are still on the original heads. I've never managed to get replacement pinch rollers for them, alas. In that time they've needed 2 repairs -- the loading pulley cracks (but there's a workaround), and I had to replace one transistor in the audio mute circuit. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 19 17:15:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:15:37 -0800 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <20061219222605.73243.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036650@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <20061219222605.73243.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45880219.23061.178D4CEB@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2006 at 14:26, Chris M wrote: > Are there any glaring instances of compiler packages > where this isn't the case (where the source code gets > compiled directly into object code)? Lots of the old iron did this, particularly the compilers that were entirely card-oriented. (i.e., read in the compiler, then the source deck, pick up the punched output, read in the second compiler pass and then the cards just punched and then collect the object deck. How about the original paper tape FORTRAN that ran on a barebones PDP 8/L? Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 19 17:01:45 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:01:45 -0700 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:40:08 -0500. <45886A48.1080302@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <45886A48.1080302 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar writes: > Fred Cisin wrote: > > What kind of mortar would work best for making a small building, > > using generic PCs as bricks? > > Molten bronze maybe? How about you place plastic mice and keyboards in between after softening 'em up with a blowtorch? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Dec 19 17:17:24 2006 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:17:24 -0500 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer (pics of actual) In-Reply-To: <200612192224.kBJMNlDV050166@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20061219181454.0331e7b0@mail.degnanco.net> Here are pics of the actual Apollo guidance module http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf3/apollo_guidence_module_a.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf3/apollo_guidence_modules.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf3/apollo_guidence_modules_b.jpg Bill D From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 19 17:19:28 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:19:28 -0700 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:54:48 -0600. Message-ID: In article , Jeff Walther writes: > Is there a guide somewhere to the different families of logic, such > as RTL, TTL, LSTTL (never heard of that one) and CMOS? Wikipedia has fairly good entries for these. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Dec 19 17:24:57 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:24:57 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036653@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Tony Duell wrote: At which point I have a device assembled with lead-free solder, soldered at too low a temperature, so it gets dry joints within a few months. With plastic mechanical parts made from the cheapest plastic imaginable that make a freebie toy look solid. I'd be lucky if that $89 machine lasted for a couple of weeks after the warrenty period... Now guess which I am going to do... -tony --------------------------------------- Oh so cynical for such a young man! I work with lead free solder every day. And WD builds tens of millions of drives with it every quarter. All without "dry joints within a few months". So why do you assume that good engineers wouldn't change the temperature of the soldering machines? Processes change constantly. And every major producer of PCBs has had more than 5 years to move to lead free environment. That was not a difficult change for competent manufacturing engineers to make. Yet, I think this is the third or fourth time you've brought this up. You must have had a bad experience someplace and are judging the technology by that experience. I know a lot of hobbyists, as well as lab technicians, were annoyed at having to buy new soldering equipment for higher temperature boards. But the world has moved on. Lead free soldering is as good and in many cases better than lead based soldering. On the data from more than 100 million lead free PCBs, I can attest dry solder joints are not a problem. As for the cheapest plastic imaginable, I just don't see that in the marketplace. My current assignment is working with DVRs, STBs and TVs using disk drives. So I always have a couple of dozen units torn down on my bench. What I see are vendors that have had 20+ years to refine their design, their processes and their materials. I see components and systems that have an order (or orders) of magnitude better reliability than the products of 20 years ago. This "everything old is good, everything new is crap" is not verified by the data from the industry world wide. Some things do improve with time. Especially in a cut throat competitive industry where warranty costs from poor products will put you out of business in weeks. Customers (and in the US, laws) demand reliable products. Companies don't survive if they make consumer products that wear out in "a year and day". (Anybody here remember that poem?) Tony, you have your preferences and choices and more power to you. But if you did a study of current state of the art electronics, you would find it to be far superior to that of 20 years ago. Even if it won't provide a maintenance manual. Billy From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Dec 19 17:25:28 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:25:28 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer References: Message-ID: <458874E8.C423874C@cs.ubc.ca> Richard wrote: > > In article <458726D7.17136.1434D6AA at cclist.sydex.com>, > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > > > But, given that the original uses RTL and core, what's the point of > > building one in LSTTL? > > Is it even possible to build with RTL parts anymore? > Well I have a dozen or so, maybe if everybody tosses in a few.. :) There are some pages on the mentioned site giving the specs for the/an IC type the AGC was based on. It's not really said directly, but it kind of implies that there was only one type of IC used in the AGC: an RTL dual 3-input NOR in a 10-pin flat-pak. Let's see... invert the logic to make use of NANDs, an earlier poster mentioned 40 tubes of 24 5400's, that's 40*24*4=3840 2-in NANDs... I always kind of liked the idea of making an entire processor out of just one basic gate/IC type. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 19 17:28:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:28:31 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: References: <200612192223.kBJMNlDS050166@dewey.classiccmp.org>, Message-ID: <4588051F.7865.17991C2C@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2006 at 16:54, Jeff Walther wrote: > Is there a guide somewhere to the different families of logic, such > as RTL, TTL, LSTTL (never heard of that one) and CMOS? I was > choosing some simple logic components for my IIfx SIMM project the > other day and was somewhat bewildered by the choice of input/output > levels. Also, some are Schmidt Triggered? SIgh. Googling around, I find not a lot of detail on the logic families, or that they've now become the exclusive domain of engineering textbook writers and EE professors. If you can get your hands on one, the big old Motorola Integrated Circuit data book from about 1969 is an excellent reference on RTL, ECL, DTL, HTL, TTL and even some MOS (not CMOS). While a few things have been added (like CMOS logic), the basic principles of operation haven't changed much. The very interesting thing about RTL was that the ICs could be operated in the linear region for lots of non-logic applications. Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Tue Dec 19 17:32:10 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:32:10 -0500 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer (pics of actual) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20061219181454.0331e7b0@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <000e01c723c5$e856a370$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Indeed! The aforementioned Frank O'Brien exhibited it at VCF East 3.0 earlier this year. -----Original Message----- From: B. Degnan [mailto:billdeg at degnanco.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 6:17 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer (pics of actual) Here are pics of the actual Apollo guidance module http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf3/apollo_guidence_module_a.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf3/apollo_guidence_modules.jpg http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf3/apollo_guidence_modules_b.jpg Bill D From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 19 17:35:22 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:35:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061219153330.B78437@shell.lmi.net> > > > What kind of mortar would work best for making a small building, > > > using generic PCs as bricks? On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Richard wrote: > How about you place plastic mice and keyboards in between after > softening 'em up with a blowtorch? :-) I think that the keyboard housings would be better as roofing shingles for it. Monitors would also make a good building block. I think that Chuck has the right idea with using roller goo as mortar. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Dec 19 17:41:03 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:41:03 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <200612192309.SAA23983@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200612192223.kBJMNlDS050166@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200612192309.SAA23983@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4588788F.7030201@shiresoft.com> der Mouse wrote: >> Is there a guide somewhere to the different families of logic, such >> as RTL, TTL, LSTTL (never heard of that one) >> > > LSTTL = Low-power Schottky TTL: basically, TTL done with low-power > Schottky technology. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schottky_barrier > has more than you probably want to know about what Schottky means as > applied to semiconductor logic.) > LS usually has the speed of TTL with the power dissipation of L. Other variations: 74Hxx 74Lxx 74Sxx 74ASxx 74ALSxx 74Cxx > >> Also, some are Schmidt Triggered? >> > > (Schmitt, I think.) I suspect most logic families have something > functionally equivalent to Schmitt triggers (inputs with hysteresis). > > As for a guide to the families, I can't help much there. I know that > there exists CMOS which is signal-level-compatible with TTL (I think > they're the 74HCT parts), but that's about where my knowledge ends. > > You might also add ECL to your list. It stands for Emitter-Coupled > Logic, and I have gained the impression that it's fast and > power-hungry, but further deponent sayeth not. > ECL is fast because it doesn't put the transistors into saturation or cutoff (ie it's operating in the "linear region"). This means that no time is required to move "large" amounts of charge (electrons) into or out of the base of the transistor which is necessary to "saturate" the transistor. This is why it is so power hungry...it's operating in the "linear" region so current is always flowing through it and it's acting as a resistor (ie causing a voltage drop across the part). -- TTFN - Guy From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 19 17:48:33 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:48:33 -0700 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer (pics of actual) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:17:24 -0500. <5.1.0.14.0.20061219181454.0331e7b0@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: In article <5.1.0.14.0.20061219181454.0331e7b0 at mail.degnanco.net>, "B. Degnan" writes: > Here are pics of the actual Apollo guidance module > http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf3/apollo_guidence_module_a.jpg > http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf3/apollo_guidence_modules.jpg > http://vintagecomputer.net/vcf3/apollo_guidence_modules_b.jpg > Bill D Yowsa! Bolted down with hex nuts :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Dec 19 17:49:26 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:49:26 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer References: <200612192223.kBJMNlDS050166@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45887A87.91F65478@cs.ubc.ca> Jeff Walther wrote: > > Is there a guide somewhere to the different families of logic, such > as RTL, TTL, LSTTL (never heard of that one) and CMOS? I was > choosing some simple logic components for my IIfx SIMM project the > other day and was somewhat bewildered by the choice of input/output > levels. Also, some are Schmidt Triggered? > > My understanding extends to the idea that there are differences in > how they (at what voltage) interpret the low and high states but > beyond that, I'm ignorant. > > Anyway, before I go on a Google hunt (which will probably turn up all > the surplus electronics suppliers and pricegrabber links first) does > anyone already know of a nice educational source on the topic? Most books or course material about digital logic from around the 70s tend to have an overview of the major logic families, for example "Integrated Circuits" by Robert G. Hibberd, published by McGraw-Hill 1969, but produced by Texas Instruments. IMHO, for earlier stuff, some of the nicest treatises on a specific logic family are the first/introductory chapters of Fairchild data books from the 60s and 70s. (...and don't forget DCTL, RCTL, DTL, CTL, ECL, PMOS, variations on all of the preceding, ...) From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Dec 19 17:52:06 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:52:06 -0800 Subject: I8008 / Scelbal - Mark 8 Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036654@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: It is an emulation of a 8008 machine I might build, (Time Permitting) -------------------------- This reminds of something I wanted to post to the list. I found my original Mark 8 PCBs. I've been preparing them to sell on Ebay, or someplace. These are from the original run made for the magazine article. They are still in the plastic bags, in the original box, have all the purchase order and shipping papers. Hard to get much more provenance on an item this old. Before I sell them, I scanned them into the computer. I don't think they can be posted - copyright problems? So those interested in the scans, let me know. If someone wants to take a chance and post them, let me know too. In the same box, I found most of the documentation, parts and PCB for the EBKA Familiarizer. I've been scanning that in, including the monitor listing, schematics and assembly manual. I didn't know I had it but the package includes some product mailers, a catalog of options, some advertising flyers and so on. I'm haven't scanned them in yet. I've written a small article on the EBKA and what I can remember of the designer. Been trying to contact him - lost touch with him 25 years ago. There are two other pieces I need to find before putting the EBKA on the market - the 1702 programmer and the master I/O PCB. I know the box number they are in and will try to reach them over the Christmas holiday. Now if I can just find my PAIA 8700. I bought it from the writer of the RE magazine article, so it is the one in the photographs. These three items will, I hope, generate some interest. And bids. Billy From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 19 17:42:45 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:42:45 -0700 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:35:22 -0800. <20061219153330.B78437@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20061219153330.B78437 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > > > > What kind of mortar would work best for making a small building, > > > > using generic PCs as bricks? > > On Tue, 19 Dec 2006, Richard wrote: > > How about you place plastic mice and keyboards in between after > > softening 'em up with a blowtorch? :-) > > I think that the keyboard housings would be better as roofing shingles for > it. > Monitors would also make a good building block. > > I think that Chuck has the right idea with using roller goo as mortar. Sounds like a nice art project for Burning Man, although it wouldn't be a good idea to set this building on fire, the fumes would probably kill you before smoke inhalation and flames had even a chance of making you woozy. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Dec 19 18:04:28 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 00:04:28 +0000 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 19/12/06 23:09, "Tony Duell" wrote: > As an aside, am I the only person who likes the Philips V2000 machines? Nope, I do too, and I'm still kicking myself for passing up a machine and a box of tapes at a car boot sale many moons ago! (I used to kick myself lots for passing up on a very cheap Amiga 4000-030 on the grounds that it had no keyboard, but I've been blessed with a much better one since....must get 3.1 ROMs) > Only one rubber part (the pinch roller), 5 motors (direct drive to the > capstan, head drump, each reel, and a loading motor to pull the tape > round the head drum). No back tension band either -- back tension is > provided by passing a suitable current trhough the rewind motor. Fantastic engineering which is why I like 'em, and it's probably the reason they failed in the marketplace. Oh yeah, and they liked chewing tapes, and the tapes were expensive AND needed turning over :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Dec 19 18:06:52 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:06:52 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036655@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Jeff Walther wrote Is there a guide somewhere to the different families of logic, such as RTL, TTL, LSTTL (never heard of that one) and CMOS? Try this one: http://www.interfacebus.com/Design_Logic_Family_Selection.html It's a little general but gives a good high level view. Billy From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 19 18:12:17 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:12:17 -0600 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036653@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036653@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <45887FE1.8070709@yahoo.co.uk> Billy Pettit wrote: > Companies don't survive if they make consumer products that wear out > in "a year and day". Where's the incentive for a manufacturer to make something that'll last five or ten years if a year down the road there's some hot new technology out and they can be pressing consumers to upgrade to that? To most consumers, "new technology" or "more features" equates to "better product", regardless of whether they have a large investment in the old technology or whether they actually need the new features provided. If a company can build a cheap product that'll last as long as it takes for them to bring its next generation to market then they'll do it; it doesn't make sense to do anything else. > Tony, you have your preferences and choices and more power to you. But if > you did a study of current state of the art electronics, you would find it > to be far superior to that of 20 years ago. Even if it won't provide a > maintenance manual. I think there's a line to be drawn somewhere, although it's hard to see what the defining characteristics are. You're right in that things like hard drives and computers as a whole do seem to last (failing capacitors and obsolescence aside :) - but in most modern DVD players, TVs, VCRs, and stereo equipment that I've been inside, the quality of construction (mechanical and electronic) has been piss-poor and obviously built to the lowest cost possible (same seems to hold true for things like kettles, toasters, microwaves etc.) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 19 18:19:23 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:19:23 -0600 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <0a5901c723cb$3284dd90$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <458861A8.7080909@yahoo.co.uk> <0a5901c723cb$3284dd90$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <4588818B.1040406@yahoo.co.uk> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> 1) Take older well-built product which does exactly what I need, and >> spend a small sum in parts and maybe four hours of time to make it >> good for another five years. > > That is what I do with my old (and trustworthy) HP Laserjet 4 Plus. I > have rollers, gears, motor, lots of spare parts, since I see no > replacement for it. Half a million pages, 7000 prints/cartridge and > still ticking, thanks! :o) I hear that so often about Laserjet 4 series printers. Time and again someone asks what the best laser printer is to get, and there'll be a flurry of people telling them to get a used Laserjet 4. Practically bomb-proof those things are. Possibly the last good-quality product that HP built? :-) cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 18:24:10 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:24:10 +1300 Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... In-Reply-To: <4586018C.2010201@gmail.com> References: <200612172043.52682.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4586018C.2010201@gmail.com> Message-ID: Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > You can also pick up "5250 emulation cards", which allow your PC to > > emulate a 5250 terminal. All of those that I've seen are ISA cards. I have one of these in the box with original invoice, etc. (one of my former employers moved into some office space of a place that was run off of microfische and AS/400s, and they left a lot of stuff behind when they departed). One thing I'm sort of looking for is my box of Twinax baluns. When I find the box, I can hook a real 5250 up to a BA123-sized AS/400 that was given to me a couple of years ago that I haven't been able to fire up for lack of a console cable. :-/ -ethan From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Dec 19 18:26:02 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:26:02 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036656@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: I always kind of liked the idea of making an entire processor out of just one basic gate/IC type. ------------------------- Didn't Seymour Cray do this on one of his later machines? The Cray 2? Seems like it was a 5 input And gate. But then he always did like to minimalize. The 6600, his first big iron, used one transistor type tied together in different ways to make gates, flip flops and timing circuits. He used circles and squares to denote gates - but whther they were And or Ors depended on what fed them. Ah, twas fun to work with. And I loved the esthetics of the logic diagrams. All those little squares and circles had a kind of magic to them. Billy From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 19 18:26:08 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:26:08 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer (pics of actual) In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <458812A0.5151.17CDDA53@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2006 at 16:48, Richard wrote: > Yowsa! Bolted down with hex nuts :-). Looks more like hex (allen) socket head capscrews to me. --Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Dec 19 18:27:56 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 00:27:56 +0000 Subject: Modern compared to old (was: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance) In-Reply-To: <0a5901c723cb$3284dd90$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: Apologies for this, but..... On 20/12/06 00:05, "Alexandre Souza" wrote: >> 1) Take older well-built product which does exactly what I need, and spend >> a small sum in parts and maybe four hours of time to make it good for >> another five years. > > That is what I do with my old (and trustworthy) HP Laserjet 4 Plus. I > have rollers, gears, motor, lots of spare parts, since I see no replacement > for it. Half a million pages, 7000 prints/cartridge and still ticking, > thanks! :o) Only half a million? :) Some of the LJ4's we look after have done 1.5m pages with no problems..... At this point I should say I work for a fully accredited DEC/Compaq/HP maintenance company so we see a lot of printers. The most troublesome are the newer ones, the so-called 'consumer grade' ones. Since HP won't sell maintenance parts of these printers to the likes of us trained professionals we have to rely on their own contracted service monkeys to 'fix' them. For the last 3 weeks (Weeks!) we've been battling with HP 'service' engineers for a Laserjet 3500; we tell them what's wrong with it (because we know), they turn up with the wrong bits and/or spend hours poring over it because they've not seen one in the field before. Thanks, HP, the printer company! After said engineers have left and most of our customer's printer doesn't function correctly aside from printing a demo page I strip it down and rebuild it this morning (in the UK this is known as the 'bollocks to it' approach) and find a couple of things that both HP contractors didn't do correctly, ie put it back together correctly. Merely 20 years ago the maintenance engineer's heads would've been on blocks if they'd not done their job properly, as would the manufacturing company. Don't get me started on the self-destructing properties of the 'new' Laserjet 4250/4350 fusers..... Massively off-topic, apologies for the rant! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 18:28:24 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:28:24 +1300 Subject: Any list members in Sydney, Australia? Message-ID: I'm in Sydney for the week, departing Christmas Day (Newtonsday ;-) and was curious if there were any members of the list who are close enough to the Sydney CBD to warrant getting together for a beer and some classic computer conversation. I'm paying for wireless by the hour here :-/ so it would probably be better to call my mobile at 0420755794 if interested. I'm back to NZ for a few days next week, then finally back home to Ohio where I can a) look for work, and b) spend some indoor time getting various projects to a state of completion before the weather turns nice, eventually. Cheers, -ethan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Dec 19 18:35:07 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 00:35:07 +0000 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <45887FE1.8070709@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 20/12/06 00:12, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > I think there's a line to be drawn somewhere, although it's hard to see what > the defining characteristics are. You're right in that things like hard drives One word: RD53 :) I've got every single RD53 we have as a company and every one has died, even 'brand new' ones. They're beautifully clean and perfect as museum exibits though. I'm pleased to report my BA23 based MicroPDP 11/73 is still going strong and passes all the XXDP+ tests I've thrown at it over the last 2 days. > and computers as a whole do seem to last (failing capacitors and obsolescence > aside :) - but in most modern DVD players, TVs, VCRs, and stereo equipment > that I've been inside, the quality of construction (mechanical and electronic) > has been piss-poor and obviously built to the lowest cost possible (same seems > to hold true for things like kettles, toasters, microwaves etc.) Computers, DVD players etc are now 'consumer grade' which means 'as cheap as possible, 1 year warranty and bugger it if they break' My 1995 Toshiba VCR is still going strong, ditto my Missus' Matsui (same age) but I'd guess everything built after 2000 is utter rubbish for the reasons you've stated already. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Dec 19 18:41:46 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:41:46 -0800 Subject: early IC ident: Sperry 1M4 Message-ID: <458886CB.AA792975@cs.ubc.ca> (Speaking of early ICs...) Slim chance, but I'll ask: I have a small plastic box of (what we now call) integrated circuits. Inside are twenty-five (unused,NOS) 10-pin flat-pak ICs, but with pin 6 absent. (Very cute, there is a cardboard holder with each IC nestled in it's own cutout in the cardboard.) The ICs are stamped: SSI <-- logo (Sperry Semiconductor Incorporated?) 1M4 <-- type 6546 <-- date code On the box is a label with: MICRONETS from SPERRY SEMICONDUCTOR (SPERRY RAND CORPORATION) TYPE: 1M4 S.O.#: 20613 <-- Shipping Order # ? CUST.P.O.#: 17762 <-- Purchase Order # ? I like the term MicroNets, from a time when it was not universally agreed upon to call them ICs. Obviously I'm curious as to what they are - can't be too complex with 10 pins and given the period - but before I sit down with an ohmmeter and power supply figured I might as well ask if anybody might know. (Sperry made a lot of stuff, so it's too much to presume they were used in UNIVACs, but when did UNIVACs move to ICs?) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 19 18:57:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 16:57:06 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036656@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036656@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <458819E2.12538.17EA341A@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2006 at 16:26, Billy Pettit wrote: > Didn't Seymour Cray do this on one of his later machines? The Cray 2? > Seems like it was a 5 input And gate. Before that, Neil Lincoln was talking up and showing his "Chiclet" apprach for the Cyber 203. The basic idea was that the whole shebang was to be built out of a selection of ICs that could be held in a box of Chiclets chewing gum (IIRC, something like 13 different types). As a test vehicle, I believe he did an implementation of a 6400 CPU. Cheers, Chuck From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Dec 19 18:59:06 2006 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 19:59:06 -0500 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: <200612192014.kBJKEYL6006392@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200612192014.kBJKEYL6006392@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20061219195906.33a83864@bluto.i16.net> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:14:34 -0800 (PST) "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Or there is always the option of getting old Freight containers (the > type they use on cargo ships). > > Zane > They're cheap enough (as low as $200 or so), and the port is only 20 miles away. FOB only, though. You need to have a flatbed or hire one, which adds to the expense. There is one unit right next door that might conceivably become available. There is another problem, though, as containers tend to receive undue attention from the vigilant eye of code enforcement here, unlike some other enlightened areas of the country, particularly if you attempt to build any kind of actual structure out of them. In my case I would have to. Freight containers are not really big enough for decent shop facilities. jbdigriz From Doug at seadec.com Tue Dec 19 19:08:48 2006 From: Doug at seadec.com (Doug Griffin) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 20:08:48 -0500 Subject: Storage Buildings Message-ID: <73DE370A8BEC804EAA5DB62D836632C22371A8@sbs.seadec.local> can someone please tell me how to unsubscribe from this list?? Help!! ________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of James B. DiGriz Sent: Tue 12/19/2006 7:59 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Storage Buildings On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 12:14:34 -0800 (PST) "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Or there is always the option of getting old Freight containers (the > type they use on cargo ships). > > Zane > They're cheap enough (as low as $200 or so), and the port is only 20 miles away. FOB only, though. You need to have a flatbed or hire one, which adds to the expense. There is one unit right next door that might conceivably become available. There is another problem, though, as containers tend to receive undue attention from the vigilant eye of code enforcement here, unlike some other enlightened areas of the country, particularly if you attempt to build any kind of actual structure out of them. In my case I would have to. Freight containers are not really big enough for decent shop facilities. jbdigriz From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Dec 19 19:07:07 2006 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 20:07:07 -0500 Subject: OT amends In-Reply-To: <004101c7223b$3cf3bd50$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <20061217074049.3c605278@bluto.i16.net> <004101c7223b$3cf3bd50$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20061219200707.25c5b10b@bluto.i16.net> On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 18:27:02 -0600 "Jay West" wrote: > James wrote... > >I wish to apologize to the list for making potentially rancorous OT > > references to religion and politics. > Apology accepted... I had to go back and look. I had deleted the > first message, thinking it was spam that made it through to the > list ;) > > > They were over-general to begin > > with, as I had in mind certain ... *HUGE SNIP* > > The rest of that was back in the same vein as the original post ;) > > We really need to make an effort to keep political & religious > inferences off list. Believe me, I know it's hard. I'm a political > junkie myself so when someone makes a side comment it's REALLY hard > for me not to start a "tit-for-tat". But I try, and continue to work > at it :) > > Jay > Point taken. I will say I was just overcome with frustration because I have promised some work to Al, Guntis, and others here and elsewhere that I haven't been able to get done, due to willful interference and obstruction from certain quarters. Certainly not from anyone on the list, though. My apologies again. jbdigriz From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Dec 19 19:20:32 2006 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 20:20:32 -0500 Subject: OT amends In-Reply-To: <004101c7223b$3cf3bd50$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <20061217074049.3c605278@bluto.i16.net> <004101c7223b$3cf3bd50$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20061219202032.6eb7113f@bluto.i16.net> On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 18:27:02 -0600 "Jay West" wrote: > James wrote... > >I wish to apologize to the list for making potentially rancorous OT > > references to religion and politics. > Apology accepted... I had to go back and look. I had deleted the > first message, thinking it was spam that made it through to the > list ;) > > > They were over-general to begin > > with, as I had in mind certain ... *HUGE SNIP* > > The rest of that was back in the same vein as the original post ;) > > We really need to make an effort to keep political & religious > inferences off list. Believe me, I know it's hard. I'm a political > junkie myself so when someone makes a side comment it's REALLY hard > for me not to start a "tit-for-tat". But I try, and continue to work > at it :) > > Jay > Points taken. I can only say in my defense that I was overcome by the sight of my vintage stuff exposed to the weather one too many times, and because I've promised Al, Guntis, and others here and elsewhere a number of things I haven't been able to get done, not for want of trying, either. jbdigriz From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Dec 19 19:28:06 2006 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 20:28:06 -0500 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: <90515.22690.qm@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <45884C34.90204@bluewin.ch> <90515.22690.qm@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061219202806.1cd59e82@bluto.i16.net> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:31:03 -0800 (PST) Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I built a metal building for my airplane. It took about two weeks, > but I did it alone. Total cost was $3300. It's 36' wide by 32' long. > You can bargain with the building companies and they have sales all > the time. It was like dealing with a used car salesman. Photos of the > construction are here: > > http://www.dvq.com/bdoon/hangar/ > > Bob Not bad. A friend got a building about twice that length, half-enclosed, plus an additional carport, for about $8000,including slabs, but that was really low-ball. Buddy of his or something. Thanks to all who've responded; lots of good ideas. A few very good ones, indeed. jbdigriz From bear at typewritten.org Tue Dec 19 19:52:59 2006 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:52:59 -0800 Subject: Targa/TIGA/??? was Re: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: <260629.82649.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <260629.82649.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1FC698D0-370A-4690-9776-D76880039A2F@typewritten.org> On Dec 19, 2006, at 2:37 PM, Chris M wrote: > > --- Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Kelly Leavitt wrote: >>> I remeber the AT&T TARGA. Output was to a RGB >> monitor. Input via tablet with a puck and a wand. >> They had it running on a Wyse PC/286. I wrote a >> converter to the Amiga IFF and PC GIF, but I can't >> find the source any more. >> >> I worked on one of those; some small investigation >> showed that the .TGA >> files were 16-bit raw with a header (ie. no >> compression). Can't >> remember if it was 5-5-5 or 5-6-5 but would be very >> easy to test based >> on the output of the converter... > > So no one can confirm if the thing used the 34010 or > not? There are two separate things, the Truevision TARGA family of frame grab and true-color display boards (progenitor of the .TGA format), and the later family of display-list based graphics accelerators known collectively as TIGA, which featured the TI 340x0 processor, were made by many different vendors, and were frequently 8514/A compatible. The two have virtually nothing in common apart from they both describe ISA-bus hardware capable of displaying raster images to a color display. Other helpful information: The Electronic Photography and Imaging Center was spun off of AT&T in 1987 and became Truevision; the original TARGA hardware were apparently AT&T branded. .TGA supports up to 32-bpp data (24 bits of color, 8 bits of alpha). Apropos of nothing in particular, I love how people on this list spout off half-cocked about stuff they think they might vaguely remember a little bit, maybe, and rarely bother to do even a tiny bit of fact checking first. ok bear From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Dec 19 20:29:20 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:29:20 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036656@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <4588A002.B151E7BC@cs.ubc.ca> Billy Pettit wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: I always > kind of liked the idea of making an entire processor out of just one basic > gate/IC type. > > ------------------------- > > Didn't Seymour Cray do this on one of his later machines? The Cray 2? > Seems like it was a 5 input And gate. > > But then he always did like to minimalize. The 6600, his first big iron, > used one transistor type tied together in different ways to make gates, flip > flops and timing circuits. He used circles and squares to denote gates - > but whther they were And or Ors depended on what fed them. Ah, twas fun to > work with. And I loved the esthetics of the logic diagrams. All those > little squares and circles had a kind of magic to them. > > Billy I have a web page (http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/gates/index.html) where I'm accumulating the diversity of symbols that have been used for logic gates. If you have a scan or reference for the Cray/6600 symbols I'd be interested in adding them. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Dec 19 20:49:00 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:49:00 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036658@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: I have a web page () where I'm accumulating the diversity of symbols that have been used for logic gates. If you have a scan or reference for the Cray/6600 symbols I'd be interested in adding them. --------------------------- I'll be glad to if I can find one over Christmas. I'm flying to the Bay area on Saturday, so I'll look next week. I know I have the plastic drawing guides for the 1604, 3000 and 6000 logic symbols. And I think I have some scans of the legends of several schematics I'll send you. But my all time favorite was the logic drawings of the Bendix G-15. They were drawn by an artist. Every page is clean, neat and easy to read. Lots of comments. I still think they are the prettiest schematics ever produced in the industry. Even if it was a valve (vacuum tube) machine. The ugliest, hands down winner, are the IBM early machine drawing schematics or logic manuals for the System 360. They were done by a badly timed line printer with an exceptonally bad ribbon. Billy From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 19 20:57:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:57:19 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <4588788F.7030201@shiresoft.com> References: <200612192223.kBJMNlDS050166@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <200612192309.SAA23983@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, <4588788F.7030201@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4588360F.32015.185842E0@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2006 at 15:41, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > LS usually has the speed of TTL with the power dissipation of L. > > Other variations: > > 74Hxx > 74Lxx > 74Sxx > 74ASxx > 74ALSxx > 74Cxx 74F is another common one. Normally, one can assume that the pinout's the same between all families, regardless of the letters after the "74". The notable exception is 74L--some members of the family have pinouts that differ from the corresponding 74/74S/74LS ones. e.g., 74L85 vs. 7485. Similarly, 74 and 74-followed-by-alphabet-soup ICs can differ in implementation. Some notable examples are 7473--positive pulse- triggered JK FF; 74LS73 negative-edge-triggered JK FF. And again, one could get away with wire-OR-in 74L-series logic, which would be a disaster in any other 74-series logic family. Just a gentle reminder to check the databook before cross- substituting... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 19 21:03:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 19:03:46 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036658@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036658@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <45883792.26708.185E2B2A@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2006 at 18:49, Billy Pettit wrote: > The ugliest, hands down winner, are the IBM early machine drawing schematics > or logic manuals for the System 360. They were done by a badly timed line > printer with an exceptonally bad ribbon. The early manuals for the Univac 1108 were like that--done on a drum printer with a fuzzy ribbon that clearly hadn't been maintained. The wavy lines would give you a headache. The binders were pretty good, OTOH. Many S/360 manuals look as if they were done on a Selectric typewriter. At least they were legible. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 21:20:57 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 22:20:57 -0500 Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... In-Reply-To: <200612180828.41281.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200612180828.41281.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > I have no idea, and don't see one (or any reference) in the auction... I am not sure IBM ever made a 5250 - I think the model number refers to the protocol/family. I still would like to get a decent 5251, on the East coast. Just picked up a 3741, though... -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 21:30:16 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 22:30:16 -0500 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036653@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036653@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: > This "everything old is good, everything new is crap" is not verified by the > data from the industry world wide. Some things do improve with time. One pet theory of mine is that many people see this, simply because they are not seeing the whole sample. There were indeed plenty of old things that were crap, and are now gone for good, discarded. People tend to forget about those things, as they tend to remember only the good old stuff. Likewise, they tend to forget about the modern things that are good and work flawlessly, and remember the ones they have had bad experiences with. Consumer electronics is no exception - look at old radios or (especially) old TVs. There was a lot of crap back then... -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 21:35:09 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 22:35:09 -0500 Subject: early IC ident: Sperry 1M4 In-Reply-To: <458886CB.AA792975@cs.ubc.ca> References: <458886CB.AA792975@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Obviously I'm curious as to what they are - can't be too complex with 10 pins > and given the period - but before I sit down with an ohmmeter and power supply > figured I might as well ask if anybody might know. (Sperry made a lot of > stuff, so it's too much to presume they were used in UNIVACs, but when did > UNIVACs move to ICs?) For a while back in the 1960s, Univac was in the 2 1/2 generation, like IBM with SLT. They used IC like things, but with all the logic steering diodes external to the chip. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 21:43:43 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 22:43:43 -0500 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036656@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036656@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: > Didn't Seymour Cray do this on one of his later machines? The Cray 2? > Seems like it was a 5 input And gate. I think it was the early Cray-1 line. Four chip types - 2 gates, a flip flop, and a memory chip. To me, it seems like a really dumb idea. If he could get the chip house (Fairchild?) to make a JK flip flop, certainly he could have had them make some more complex gates, like AOIs or adders. With a few more chip types, I bet the Cray-1 could have been a much better machine (cheaper, more reliable, maybe a tad faster). For that matter, one has to wonder why he just did not use off the shelf MECL III. Methinks it was NIH syndrome. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 21:46:43 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 22:46:43 -0500 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036658@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036658@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: > The ugliest, hands down winner, are the IBM early machine drawing schematics > or logic manuals for the System 360. They were done by a badly timed line > printer with an exceptonally bad ribbon. Depends who was maintaining the 1403... Ugly as a dogs butt, yes, but they do tell all. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 19 21:51:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 19:51:00 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036653@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, Message-ID: <458842A4.32758.1889667C@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2006 at 22:30, William Donzelli wrote: > Consumer electronics is no exception - look at old radios or > (especially) old TVs. There was a lot of crap back then... Remember "Madman Muntz"? :) From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 19 22:22:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 21:22:30 -0700 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Dec 2006 22:43:43 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > > Didn't Seymour Cray do this on one of his later machines? The Cray 2? > > Seems like it was a 5 input And gate. > > I think it was the early Cray-1 line. Four chip types - 2 gates, a > flip flop, and a memory chip. > > To me, it seems like a really dumb idea. [...] To me it seems like a smart idea. Concentrate on a few chips so that you can get the manufacturing yields up, the cost per component down, and fewer parts to stock and manage from manufacturing all the way through repair servicing. There are lots of overhead factors that increase with the number of kinds of parts you have. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 22:41:26 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 23:41:26 -0500 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > To me it seems like a smart idea. Concentrate on a few chips so that > you can get the manufacturing yields up, the cost per component down, > and fewer parts to stock and manage from manufacturing all the way > through repair servicing. There are lots of overhead factors that > increase with the number of kinds of parts you have. Adding just ten more chip types will not significantly increase manufacturing overhead. How many parts total were on the Cray-1 BOM? 10,000? 20,000? making it 10,010 or 20,010 is not going to strain the inventory folks. Also, by adding just ten more chip type, the total number of chips in the system will have gone down - perhaps by ten percent. That will greatly increase yield. Back in those hand-placed hand-soldered surface mount days, board errors were far more likely to be bad solder joints (using that old fashioned solder! horrors!) than misplaced parts. One of the Cray-1s faults was the somewhat miserable servicing requirements, and the crummy downtime that forced it. Fewer parts would have increased uptime (although many of the issues with the machines were not chip related). -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 19 23:20:47 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 22:20:47 -0700 Subject: TI Travelmate LT220 portable terminal w/inkjet printer dock Message-ID: I just picked up an interesting portable terminal from ebay for $0.99 I guess there aren't really any other terminal collectors out there! Anyway, this is a nice little unit. 80x24 LCD screen, NiCad battery pack for portable operation, wall wart for AC operation. However, what's interesting about this puppy is that it has a docking station that contains an inkjet printer and a numeric keypad for data entry. The manufacturing label indicates manufacture in 1989. The terminal is VT220 compatible. There is a handle on the docking station so that you can carry the printer+terminal combination around. The whole bundle comes in a special TI black cloth bag that lets you lug it around to various locations. I have another terminal that is similar to this, but isn't as fancy with the printer dock: the Random Colleague. I purchased two Random Colleagues in a dovebid auction. One had a damaged case and the other had a damaged LCD screen. I've swapped the good screen into the good case and now I just need a little digikey ordering to connect the ribbon cable for the screen back up to the main board. The Random Colleague has a hard briefcase like case that lets you take it to various locations. Anyone else out there have either of these? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wizard at voyager.net Wed Dec 20 00:22:20 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 01:22:20 -0500 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia In-Reply-To: <00e901c72382$96a3db30$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <1166525124.19524.356.camel@linux.site> <00e901c72382$96a3db30$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1166595741.19524.383.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2006-12-19 at 09:30 -0600, Jay West wrote: > It was written... > > The first computer I ever used was an HP 200B, TimeShare BASIC. > 2000B I guess you mean? Yeah, yeah. I left my good hands at work. > > The > > notable thing about the log-in accounts was that they were all of the > > pattern annn where a=alphabetic and n=numeric. The "A-triple-zero" > > account, A000, was the Master Account, and files saved by that user were > > accessible as read-only for all users. And, when user A000 saved a > > BASIC program named "HELLO," that program was run automatically at > > log-in for every user. Our HELLO program was very cool... eventually. > > > That's all definitely from the HP2000 TSB OS. Indeed. > > Any other letter, followed by three zeros, was a Group Account, and > > files saved by that account were read-only for any other account > > starting with the same letter, i.e., other group members. Regular users > > had an account that was not zero in the numeric part; ours was H455. > > That account structuring scheme was odd enough that if you remember it, > > you were almost certainly in the HP2000 realm... > I don't believe you were using 2000B then, as I don't believe 2000B had the > group account feature. You've certainly ruled out 2000E by that statement. Nah, it's encroaching senility. We *DID* start out with HP 2000B TSB, but they upgraded the computer and OS software at some point... I must be conflating the features. An absolute certainty is that we started with a 2000B. (Note: in both of the references in this paragraph, I have originally typed "200B," and had to go back. *SIGH*) I think they ended up with an HB200F by the time they were done -- but I was long gone, working with Control Data iron by then. (We did not have the kind of organization which made use of Groups, having set everything up with the 2000B...) Thanks for your corrections. This stuff is in the FAR recesses of the old gray matter. Wow... So you're running 2000s w/TSB? That is most cool. Which models do you have? From rickb at bensene.com Wed Dec 20 00:24:18 2006 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 22:24:18 -0800 Subject: HP 2000F' Message-ID: >The consensus was that we did "HEL" to login and that the accounts >were , in particular X999 was the games >account. (That rang a memory chord with me when it was mentioned.) >It was also remembered that A000 was the "root" account on the >machine. The login was of the form HEL-XYYY, for the earlier systems, and later, HEL-XYYY,,. The password was usually a combination of non-printing control characters to avoid the password showing up on the teletype printout. X was a letter from A through Z. YYY was 000 through 999. If the last two digits of YYY were 00, then the account was a "group" account, which was available to all members of that group as a library account, for shared files/programs. A000 was indeed the "root" account, which did have access to a few extra commands. Z999 was also an interesting account --- it was the "system overhead" account. All available "free" disk space was available to this account. In 2000C and C' systems, there was a "beature" (a cross between a bug and a feature) where if the "NAM" (name a program) command was issued with an argument of ",", e.g., "NAM-,", the user would get "dropped" into the Z999 account with no password request. It's unclear if this was a "back door" for HP service personnel, or if it was a bug, but it was explicitly noted in the user's manual for the system that "," was an invalid argument to the NAM command. "NAM-," would simply be acknowledged by the TSB system sending a linefeed, indicating that the command had been processed. At this point, it was possible for a user to "crash" the system by asking it to create a file that was so large that it consumed the remainder of free disk space. The timeshare system could also be "locked up" for varying periods of time by creating large files. In TSB, data files had to be pre-allocated to a given size, and all of the blocks were "claimed" as part of the creation process. For example, doing a "CRE-FILE,10000" would create a 10,000 block file. Normal user accounts were limited to perhaps 100 to 200 blocks of storage. Creating a 10,000 block file took the system quite a long time, and during that time, all timesharing operations would cease while the system was locked in "system state", creating the file. This was discovered by a friend and myself in high school. It was quite interesting the first time we tried "NAM-,", simply because the manual said it was invalid, and were quite surprised when the system just accepted the command, but didn't appear to do anything. We then typed "CAT" (shows disk catalog), and it showed an empty directory, with a large number of available blocks. We tried "CRE-FILE,1000" at first, and when we hit RETURN, we noted that there was a period of time where the other three teletypes which were active in our high school computer center stopped typing, or even echoing input, until our command completed, then everything resumed where it left off. We deleted FILE, and then tried CRE-FILE,10000, and the other terminals stopped...dead in their tracks, for a few minutes (most people thought the system had crashed, and turned off their teletypes) while the system was creating this large file. We then did a PUR-FILE (PURge - deleting the file), which again locked things up (for a period of less time) while the system was deleting the file. We then did a "CRE-FILE,1000000", which was in excess of the number of blocks that the "CAT" (CATalog) command showed, and the system "went away", and the computer math teacher soon got a call from the data center saying that the system had crashed for unknown reasons, and that it would be some time before it would come back. We had quite a bit of fun writing little programs which would wait for a specific time (during other people's classes), and then "crash" the system at that time. Eventually, we got caught. We didn't get into too much trouble. How they tracked us down, I'm not sure, but I believe that through the crash dumps that the system generated when it crashed, HP engineers were able to figure out which async mux line was causing the problem, and then tracked it back to our school. A patch was put in place that fixed the problem, resulting in an "ILLEGAL FORMAT" error if NAM-, was entered. This fix was incorporated into all later releases of HP 2000 TSB, including HP 2000F, HP 2000F', and HP 2000/Access. I sure loved these systems. They were wonderful systems to learning the basics of computing through. They weren't as fully featured or flexible as competitor Digital Equipment's RSTS/E timeshare systems (I have other fun stories to tell about finding bugs in RSTS/E), but they HP system were really a lot of fun, especially 2000/Access, which added a lot of neat functions. I'm really happy that Jay has managed to find the various special bits (microcode and mux hardware) that makes it possible to have an operational HP Timeshared BASIC system running as "the real thing". Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From grant at stockly.com Wed Dec 20 00:37:22 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 21:37:22 -0900 Subject: Altair Tape MP3 test Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061219212733.0159ad00@pop.1and1.com> My 88-ACR is currently "bare". Can anyone with an Altair try playing this tape image? I'm using a Sony stereo cassette deck with dc servo controlled motors. I'm trying to get the best copy of these tapes that I can. I want to start a free library of actual audio cassette recordings. I guess once these recordings have been "verified", we can regenerate perfect sound images by recording the direct output of the 88-ACR. Until then... :) The only thing I am worried about is the Dolby NR (filter) was enabled. I'm not sure if this is bad or not. I have not adjusted any dynamics yet. You may have to turn up the volume... If the MP3 is not good enough, I have the raw 32bit 44100Hz available... (30MB RAR'd) http://www.altairkit.com/software/ This is what is on the tape: ALTAIR 8K BASIC VERSION 4.0 MARCH 1977 COPYRIGHT 1976 BY MITS INC. 2400/1850 HZ Grant NOTE TO ARCHIVE: This file may not exist forever, it is a beta file. : ) Look for other posts. : ) From steve at radiorobots.com Tue Dec 19 20:55:27 2006 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 21:55:27 -0500 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036658@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036658@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <4588A61F.8090004@radiorobots.com> Hi Billy, Are the Bendix drawings online anywhere? Thanks, Steve Billy Pettit wrote: >Brent Hilpert wrote: > >I have a web page () >where I'm accumulating the diversity of symbols that have been used for >logic gates. If you have a scan or reference for the Cray/6600 symbols I'd >be >interested in adding them. > >--------------------------- > >I'll be glad to if I can find one over Christmas. I'm flying to the Bay >area on Saturday, so I'll look next week. I know I have the plastic drawing >guides for the 1604, 3000 and 6000 logic symbols. And I think I have some >scans of the legends of several schematics I'll send you. > >But my all time favorite was the logic drawings of the Bendix G-15. They >were drawn by an artist. Every page is clean, neat and easy to read. Lots >of comments. I still think they are the prettiest schematics ever produced >in the industry. Even if it was a valve (vacuum tube) machine. > >The ugliest, hands down winner, are the IBM early machine drawing schematics >or logic manuals for the System 360. They were done by a badly timed line >printer with an exceptonally bad ribbon. > >Billy > > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Dec 20 01:17:55 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 02:17:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <200612151945.OAA04776@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200612151543.kBFFhjMD023006@floodgap.com> <200612151945.OAA04776@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200612200722.CAA02698@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Back around Friday I wrote >> I wrote a "shim" program [...] >> I wrote this for work, but they've given me approval to release it >> (I asked preemptively); I can put it up for FTP if there's any >> interest. > I'll put it up for FTP. I'll try to get it done over the weekend; > we'll see how that goes. I'll drop a note here when it's ready. I finally got this done. See ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca, specifically, the /mouse/misc/mail/shim/ directory. I want to set up a samples/ subdir containing (slightly redacted versions of) the files we use at work for the "designed to be modified by the mailadmin" code...but that's going to take longer, because I have to go through them and anonymize some things. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 20 01:32:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 23:32:33 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <000001c723a0$6ec237b0$db64c80a@prozac> References: <200612190731.kBJ7V5UL037655@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <000001c723a0$6ec237b0$db64c80a@prozac> Message-ID: <45887691.15518.19543B9E@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Dec 2006 at 14:03, JTP wrote: > (2) Cast a new roller using urethane or silicon. Mount the shaft, or tube > that represents the inner diameter, in a drill press. Using an n-way > machining vise, center the outer tube with the inner shaft. Pour in goo, > lower inner shaft into goo using the press handle and fine tune the > positioning with the vise if needed. I Silicone is pretty mushy stuff. I wonder if a polyurethane elastomer such as Lexel might work a bit better? I use it for caulking around water and it's very sticky and sets to a fairly firm texture. Cheers, Chuck From spedraja at ono.com Wed Dec 20 01:37:02 2006 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 08:37:02 +0100 Subject: Searching for some PDP-11/23-PLUS items Message-ID: <451DC88A0004CA4A@resmta02.ono.com> Hi. I could finally get some time to put in working state my PDP-11/23-PLUS. Once I could check the correct startup of the system, I should like to obtain these items that detail below: * Original rack for this system, with its 874 power controller, backpanels and rack inner metal rails. * Cable kit for one RLV12 (RL02 controller board), at least for two RL's * TSV05 (Pertec) cable kit. I have the tape unit and the board but no cables * -YA terminator for one BA11-S expansion box. I have the main BA11-S plus another one to extend the system, plus both connection boards (plus cables) for the boxes, but the PDP-11/23-PLUS manuals speak about another terminator board. I only remember now the final part number letters (-YA). Other items are welcome, but I suppose it would be more difficult their transport. I am mostly interested in one or a couple of working RL02. If someone can get rid of some of this, or even sell it for a reasonable price, contact me off list. I live in Europe, by the way. All indications and suggestions about these matters are welcome too. Greetings Sergio From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 20 01:40:20 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 02:40:20 -0500 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036656@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036656@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: On Dec 19, 2006, at 7:26 PM, Billy Pettit wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: I always > kind of liked the idea of making an entire processor out of just > one basic > gate/IC type. > > ------------------------- > > Didn't Seymour Cray do this on one of his later machines? The Cray 2? > Seems like it was a 5 input And gate. > > But then he always did like to minimalize. The 6600, his first big > iron, > used one transistor type tied together in different ways to make > gates, flip > flops and timing circuits. He used circles and squares to denote > gates - > but whther they were And or Ors depended on what fed them. Ah, twas > fun to > work with. And I loved the esthetics of the logic diagrams. All > those > little squares and circles had a kind of magic to them. Actually I believe this was the case for the Cray 1 and earlier XMP machines. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Dec 20 03:00:32 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 06:00:32 -0300 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance References: <458861A8.7080909@yahoo.co.uk><0a5901c723cb$3284dd90$f0fea8c0@alpha> <4588818B.1040406@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <0ba201c72415$ae89d450$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I hear that so often about Laserjet 4 series printers. Time and again > someone asks what the best laser printer is to get, and there'll be a > flurry of people telling them to get a used Laserjet 4. Practically > bomb-proof those things are. > Possibly the last good-quality product that HP built? :-) You can call them "war hummers", because the "war tank" was the HP III :o) It **is** bomb-proof, made to last decades (!). The HP4 isn't the "last". The HP 5 is also a good printer (more beautiful, infrared printing, newer) but it stops there. HP forgot how to made durable printers on the 5L/6L line. The 1000 series are good printers, but all-plastic and no RIP inside, you depend on the PC for everything. How can I connect my HP1662A logic analyzer if there is no serial port? :oO From wizard at voyager.net Wed Dec 20 03:00:12 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 04:00:12 -0500 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: <20061219141622.E78437@shell.lmi.net> References: <20061219141622.E78437@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1166605213.19524.447.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2006-12-19 at 14:17 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > What kind of mortar would work best for making a small building, > using generic PCs as bricks? The M252 81 millimeter would be my choice, due to its high angle and... oh, wait, you said "MAKING a small building." Never mind. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Dec 20 06:31:19 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 09:31:19 -0300 Subject: Modern compared to old (was: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance) References: Message-ID: <0c1201c72433$0fc99670$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Only half a million? :) Some of the LJ4's we look after have done 1.5m > pages > with no problems..... This is my home printer :) > Don't get me started on the self-destructing properties of the 'new' > Laserjet 4250/4350 fusers..... ?????????????????????????????????????????? Can you tell me (us?) more about that!?! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 20 06:19:19 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 05:19:19 -0700 Subject: HP 2000F' In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 19 Dec 2006 22:24:18 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Rick Bensene" writes: > I sure loved these systems. They were wonderful systems to learning the > basics of computing through. They weren't as fully featured or flexible > as competitor Digital Equipment's RSTS/E timeshare systems (I have other > fun stories to tell about finding bugs in RSTS/E), but they HP system > were really a lot of fun, especially 2000/Access, which added a lot of > neat functions. I'm really happy that Jay has managed to find the > various special bits (microcode and mux hardware) that makes it possible > to have an operational HP Timeshared BASIC system running as "the real > thing". Sounds like we share a common heritage here! I started on the HP for a few months and then migrated to a PDP-11/70 RSTS/E machine, both at the UDel.edu campus. The only "bug" I personally found in RSTS/E was simply the observation that when you submitted a batch job, it ran as user BATCH which was account [1,2]. Oops. Submitting a batch job lets you run as a priveleged user? Cool! Let's run ACCT and list out all the passwords! Hey, it works! Neat! I discovered this on a weekend and informed the sysadmins on the following Monday. My fellow non priveleged users wanted me to keep this backdoor a secret, but I viewed it more as a defect than as an opportunity for future mischief. As a result I was given a priveleged account. Its probably a bad idea to give a 14 year old godlike powers over a timesharing system ;-). I did cause a little mischief *after* they gave me a priveleged account, but nothing too egregious. There was a program on RSTS/E called 'WATCH' that essentially snooped the input/output buffers on a TTY line so that you could watch their output and their input on their session. This was modified locally into a program caleld 'FORCE' that let you force your own keyboard input into someone else's input buffer. I caused some trouble by running FORCE and inserting what appeared to be 'modem line noise' into other people's command stream, just because I could. I didn't do it habitually, but I did abuse my authority ... I vaguely remember being castigated for it, but I can't recall how I was caught. I could have just been ratted out by someone else in the lab :). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 20 07:48:18 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 05:48:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: SPAM (on list) was:Re: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <200612200722.CAA02698@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from der Mouse at "Dec 20, 6 02:17:55 am" Message-ID: <200612201348.kBKDmI2u015660@floodgap.com> > > I'll put it up for FTP. I'll try to get it done over the weekend; > > we'll see how that goes. I'll drop a note here when it's ready. > > I finally got this done. See ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca, specifically, > the /mouse/misc/mail/shim/ directory. Thanks for releasing this. I'm glancing through it right now. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm rethreading my toothbrush bristles." - From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 20 10:10:38 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 10:10:38 -0600 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia References: <1166525124.19524.356.camel@linux.site><00e901c72382$96a3db30$6500a8c0@BILLING> <1166595741.19524.383.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <00f501c72451$66352ba0$6500a8c0@BILLING> It was written.... > Wow... So you're running 2000s w/TSB? That is most cool. Which models > do you have? Model? Remember "HP2000" didn't really refer to a cpu. It referred to a complete combination of hardware & software that included the operating system TSB. The exact same hardware running a different OS wasn't an HP2000. System1 (2000/Access) is running with 2100A and 2100S cpus. System2 (2000/Access) is running with dual 21MX/E's (2113's to be specific). System 3 (2000/E) varies, sometimes it's run with a 21MX/M (2108) and sometims with a 21MX/E (2109). Peripherals are 7906 and 7900A discs, 2748B paper tape readers, paper tape punch (2895B), and 7970E tape drives. System consoles are 2622A and 2649 terminals. I also have an HP 2610 printer that I would love to restore and get running well again. It's a gorgeous classic 500 pound printer that shakes the earth when it runs and has a very distinctive sound :) Jay West From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Dec 20 10:21:17 2006 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:21:17 -0500 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <4588051F.7865.17991C2C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200612192223.kBJMNlDS050166@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4588051F.7865.17991C2C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061220112117.135b4c4f@bluto.i16.net> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:28:31 -0800 "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > The very interesting thing about RTL was that the ICs could be > operated in the linear region for lots of non-logic applications. > Now that is something I didn't know and find very much worth looking into. Any quick pointers to info on RTL operating in this mode? Thanks, jbdigriz From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 20 10:49:30 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 10:49:30 -0600 Subject: HP 2000F' References: Message-ID: <011a01c72456$d41853e0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Rick wrote.... > Z999 was also an interesting account --- it was the "system overhead" > account. I'm not so sure about this (and I have the source). There are no "default" accounts present when a 2000/Access system is loaded. There isn't even an A000 account. All accounts must be manually created and none are supplied on initial distribution tapes. There were general conventions put forth like some accounts were not to be created because they were reserved for HP products, but that wasn't coded into the OS anywhere that I am aware of. I have never heard of a "system overhead" account. If there is, I've certainly learned something new. I will go back and dig for confirmation on this. Off the top of my head, I think the Z999 account was reserved for containing the text files of the source of the operating system (if you had purchased the source), or maybe for the BASIC system diagnostics (initial system confidence test). Of course, I'm much more familiar with 2000/Access than 2000F, so perhaps this is something that only existed on F and no others. I dunno. Wierd. > In TSB, data files had to be pre-allocated to a given size, and all of > the blocks were "claimed" as part of the creation process. For example, > doing a "CRE-FILE,10000" would create a 10,000 block file. Generally true, but that depends on the file type ;) > Normal user accounts were limited to perhaps 100 to 200 blocks of storage. "Normal" user accounts were limited to whatever the system administrator typed in as the account block limit when creating the account in question. It could be anything. The limit you could specify for each account had a maximum of 65535 blocks. You could not issue a CRE command for a file larger than that as a result. > I sure loved these systems. Me too :) > I'm really happy that Jay has managed to find the > various special bits (microcode and mux hardware) that makes it possible > to have an operational HP Timeshared BASIC system running as "the real > thing". You can pretty much forget trying to get up 2000A or 2000B. They required fixed head disks which just aren't to be found. For 2000E, you need just one cpu, paper tape reader, and 7900 disc drive. Neither firmware nor mag tape required. Need that 12920/21 mux though. For 2000/Access, you need two cpus, 7900/7905/7906/7920 drive, 7970 tape, firmware, and 12920/21 mux. If your cpus are 2100's, then you also must have a paper tape reader. The IOP firmware has been located for 2100, 21MX/M, and 21MX/E. These can be copied, so that isn't the huge deal it used to be. The 12920 muxes are still hard to find, the 7900's are somewhat hard to find. The rest is fairly easily obtainable these days. Jay From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Dec 20 11:07:10 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 12:07:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036653@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036653@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <200612201713.MAA05585@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Companies don't survive if they make consumer products that wear out > in "a year and day". Sure they do, provided it doesn't lose them too much. This is commonly the case in many branches of consumer electronics, where a comparatively large fraction of the customer base heat-seeks[%] more often than that anyway. > But if you did a study of current state of the art electronics, you > would find it to be far superior to that of 20 years ago. Even if it > won't provide a maintenance manual. Actually, for him (and to some extent for me), not providing a maintenance manual makes it inferior *per se* - it has to be enough better to make up for that and then some to be counted as better. [%] See http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/H/heatseeker.html. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Dec 20 11:51:33 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 09:51:33 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03665B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: Remember "Madman Muntz"? :) Ahh - there's a flood of bad memories. What a bunch of utter crap he turned out. Two or three functions on one vacuum tube. Remove parts one at a time until the set doesn't work. Then add the last one back in. Sheet metal from tin cans. High voltage wires with poor shielding. You've brought back a lot of memories, but not pleasant ones. He was one of the true characters to come out of our field. Billy From kth at srv.net Wed Dec 20 12:08:22 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:08:22 -0700 Subject: Mag Tapes Message-ID: <45897C16.1070500@srv.net> Anyone out there with a 800 BPI magtape drive that could read some RSTS/E DecWord install tapes? Prefer a USA address, due to shipping costs. Would like to make these images available, but don't really want to spend $100 in shipping costs. (5 tapes, about 6 lbs, from 83401) From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Dec 20 12:28:38 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:28:38 -0500 Subject: What to do with a VAX KA655 board that is prone to CDAL parity error? In-Reply-To: References: <458412D5.4040402@gjcp.net> Message-ID: Well, I thought there might be loosing solder on board. So I baked the KA655 in a oven, slowly turn up the temperature, peaked to 450F till the solder melt. Then I let it cool down slowly. This time it failed self test #31. I thought it was beyond my ability to repair, so I heated the board on stove and picked the big chips off the board with a pair of chopsticks (it is easy for those chips with heat sinks). I think many of you do not get a chance to peek the bellies of those chips, so I post the photo on my website. You can find it here, http://www.mscpscsi.com/PHOTOS/KA655_chips.jpg Five square chips other than the 78332 CVAX are belly up. vax, 9000 From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Dec 20 12:39:20 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:39:20 +0100 (CET) Subject: A new addition Message-ID: <22461.88.211.153.27.1166639960.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Picked something interesting up a few days ago, a graphical system which used to be part of a spectrum analyzer. It's a PDP-11/23+ with a graphics option, a monitor, joystick, an interface box for the keyboard, an Ampex diskdrive which uses packs and has a fixed disk inside and a Printronix lineprinter with 4 spare ribbons ((these are big, abouth an inch or so wide) It comes with XXDP+ (no idea which version yet), a library disk, a disk with RSX11M+ V3.0D and a stack of 30 extra data disks. Fortunately, the system docu is there, both for the machine, drive and printer. First thing to do is to hook up an RL02 to copy the sw over. The drive is an SMD type disk, it is controlled by an Emulex SC02 interface. Im not going to use this drive a lot, so if there are people who wants to take some of these data packs, you're welcome to get some. Ed From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 20 12:47:13 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:47:13 -0700 Subject: A new addition In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:39:20 +0100. <22461.88.211.153.27.1166639960.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: In article <22461.88.211.153.27.1166639960.squirrel at webmail.xs4all.nl>, "Ed Groenenberg" writes: > It's a PDP-11/23+ with a graphics option, a monitor, joystick, > an interface box for the keyboard, an Ampex diskdrive which uses > packs and has a fixed disk inside and a Printronix lineprinter > with 4 spare ribbons ((these are big, abouth an inch or so wide) I'd really like to hear more details about the graphics option if you get a chance. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From charlesmorris at hughes.net Wed Dec 20 12:59:59 2006 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (charlesmorris at hughes.net) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:59:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: high school and timesharing Message-ID: <6730547.1166641199736.JavaMail.?@fh095.dia.cp.net> "Rick Bensene" wrote: >We had quite a bit of fun writing little programs which would wait for a >specific time (during other people's classes), and then "crash" the >system at that time. Eventually, we got caught. This reminds me of an interesting phenomenon we discovered in 1974... the high school had an ASR-33 connected via a leased data line (telephone with acoustic coupler) to a PDP-8/E running TSS/8 at Clemson University, 60 miles away. I can't remember exactly what the code was any more, but it was a very simple patch -we would deposit a mere three words at location 307 (octal) and execute it (ST 307), and the terminal would log on another job. So you'd have two accounts open simultaneously on the same TTY! And if you logged off one account the other would still be open so you couldn't log off both... they'd have to reboot the system to kill it. Any TSS/8 gurus know how we might have done this? We also "inadvertently" deleted the contents of one of the library DECtapes once... there was a "ZAP" command that zeroed out the tape, so naturally we would type in "R ZAP" frequently, and get the expected "WRITE LOCKED" error. One day, though, it actually did it =:^0 Guess the operator forgot to flip the write lock switch! -Charles From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 20 13:28:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:28:43 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <20061220112117.135b4c4f@bluto.i16.net> References: <200612192223.kBJMNlDS050166@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4588051F.7865.17991C2C@cclist.sydex.com>, <20061220112117.135b4c4f@bluto.i16.net> Message-ID: <45891E6B.2189.1BE3ED64@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Dec 2006 at 11:21, James B. DiGriz wrote: > Now that is something I didn't know and find very much worth looking > into. Any quick pointers to info on RTL operating in this mode? I'll dig through my old literature. I recall that Motorola offered an "Experimenter's Kit" of about 6 of their TO-99 packaged milliwatt RTL circuits with some non-digital application notes. Anyone still have the little booklet that came with this kit? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 20 13:35:53 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:35:53 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03665B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03665B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <45892019.29649.1BEA7CFE@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Dec 2006 at 9:51, Billy Pettit wrote: > You've brought back a lot of memories, but not pleasant ones. He was one of > the true characters to come out of our field. I wouldn't want to have one of his TV's in his collection, but maybe a Stereo-Pak 4-track tape player or better yet, a Muntz Motors Jet would find some space here. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 20 13:36:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 11:36:50 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <200612201713.MAA05585@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036653@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <200612201713.MAA05585@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <45892052.29416.1BEB5C71@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Dec 2006 at 12:07, der Mouse wrote: > > Companies don't survive if they make consumer products that wear out > > in "a year and day". > > Sure they do, provided it doesn't lose them too much. "New and fantastic" will trump quality any day. Just look at Ron Popeil. Cheers, Chuck From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Dec 20 14:47:39 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 21:47:39 +0100 (CET) Subject: A new addition In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11258.88.211.153.27.1166647659.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > > In article <22461.88.211.153.27.1166639960.squirrel at webmail.xs4all.nl>, > "Ed Groenenberg" writes: > >> It's a PDP-11/23+ with a graphics option, a monitor, joystick, >> an interface box for the keyboard, an Ampex diskdrive which uses >> packs and has a fixed disk inside and a Printronix lineprinter >> with 4 spare ribbons ((these are big, abouth an inch or so wide) > > I'd really like to hear more details about the graphics option if you > get a chance. Well. it's VS11-FX/HX/JX graphics system (according to the Inst. manual). Is there any specific info you want/need? Ed From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Dec 20 14:50:43 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:50:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: high school and timesharing In-Reply-To: <6730547.1166641199736.JavaMail.?@fh095.dia.cp.net> References: <6730547.1166641199736.JavaMail.?@fh095.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: This talk of software bugs and loopholes reminds me of something we discovered in the old PC Pursuit system in the '80s. It seemed that you could call in to your local access number, then instead of a destination city and phone number you could input a LF character, and the next person that tried to dial a number in your local area would be connected to your system. :-) We discovered this by accident when writing a software dialer and not terminating the dial string with CR/LF, only LF. I ended up chatting with some perplexed users in various places, until they fixed the bug. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Dec 20 14:57:00 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 12:57:00 -0800 Subject: RTL - was Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03665C@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: On 20 Dec 2006 at 11:21, James B. DiGriz wrote: > Now that is something I didn't know and find very much worth looking > into. Any quick pointers to info on RTL operating in this mode? I'll dig through my old literature. I recall that Motorola offered an "Experimenter's Kit" of about 6 of their TO-99 packaged milliwatt RTL circuits with some non-digital application notes. Anyone still have the little booklet that came with this kit? Cheers, Chuck ---------------------------------------------------- I know that RCA also had a nice set of Application Notes for introducing RTL. I'm not certain I still have them - came out in 1962. Some of the early RCA data books still had them inside. Maybe one of our data book collectors has copies. If so, I'll be glad to scan them. Al, does your data book collection have an RTL book? And I have seen an RTL CookBook-like manual with a bunch of circuits in it. Would have been in 1969-70. I believe I bought it England. Had a green cover, paper boards. I want to say Plessey published it, but the synapses aren't firing on this one. Maybe one of our English members remembers it? Any one have a copy? Billy From rickb at bensene.com Wed Dec 20 14:57:16 2006 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 12:57:16 -0800 Subject: HP 2000F' Message-ID: > Rick wrote.... > > Z999 was also an interesting account --- it was the "system > >overhead" account. > I'm not so sure about this (and I have the source). There are > no "default" > accounts present when a 2000/Access system is loaded. There > isn't even an A000 account. All accounts must be manually > created and none are supplied on initial distribution tapes. > There were general conventions put forth like some accounts > were not to be created because they were reserved for HP > products, but that wasn't coded into the OS anywhere that I > am aware of. I have never heard of a "system overhead" > account. If there is, I've certainly learned something new. I > will go back and dig for confirmation on this. Off the top of > my head, I think the Z999 account was reserved for containing > the text files of the source of the operating system (if you > had purchased the source), or maybe for the BASIC system > diagnostics (initial system confidence test). Of course, I'm > much more familiar with 2000/Access than 2000F, so perhaps > this is something that only existed on F and no others. I > dunno. Wierd. I believe that the NAM-, and Z999 thing were part of 2000C and 2000C'. I may have accidentally implied that this existed in 2000F and beyond. It didn't. We tried. > > > In TSB, data files had to be pre-allocated to a given size, > and all of > > the blocks were "claimed" as part of the creation process. For > > example, doing a "CRE-FILE,10000" would create a 10,000 block file. > Generally true, but that depends on the file type ;) Again, this likely was under 2000C or C', which I believe only supported text file types. > > > Normal user accounts were limited to perhaps 100 to 200 > blocks of storage. > "Normal" user accounts were limited to whatever the system > administrator typed in as the account block limit when > creating the account in question. > It could be anything. The limit you could specify for each > account had a maximum of 65535 blocks. You could not issue a > CRE command for a file larger than that as a result. When the NAM-, trick was pulled, the 64K block size limit seemed to be removed. The system would try to create a file of any size specified. My recollection is that in normal cases, the space on disk had to be contiguous, so if there wasn't enough contiguous space to create the file, the create would fail. But, in the case of the "overhead" account, it appears that this restriction was lifted, and it'd hunt all over the disk for unused blocks and claim them, which really slowed the system down, and, if too large a filesize was specified would cause the system to crash, as it'd run out disk space. When we did the NAM-, trick, then did a "CATalog" command, the account was listed as Z999, and not the account we were logged into originally. There seemed to be no way to "escape" back to the original login account without logging off, and dialing back in. Interestingly enough, if we did a big file CREation, we could just shut off the teletype, and the CREate would continue to run (as evidenced by the other teletypes stopping I/O activity) until complete, then the login would be terminated. It appeared that the carrier loss interrupt on the IOP, or the communications between the IOP and executive were "tied up" during the CREate process. Whatever the case, it's clear that the "CREate" operation was a blocking operation. The installation we had at our high school (actually, the system was owned by what was called the Multnomah County (Oregon) Intermediate Education District, which served a number of middle schools and high schools in East Multomah County. Since the system served a lot of users, disk space was limited to 100 or 200 blocks. Usually Freshman and Sophomore students got 100 blocks, and Junior and Senior students got 200, because the projects were larger. A local community college (Mt. Hood Community College) had their own 2000/Access system, and user accounts were given significantly more disk blocks than we were allowed. As you said, it's all site-dependent in terms of the amount of disk space allocated for each account. I visited the data center at MCIED at one point in time. At the time, I believe that they were running 2000C. There were two CPU's, one that ran the TSB executive, and another that did I/O. The machine had a multi-platter "washing machine" style disk drive (top load), and an HP 9-track tape drive. I believe it had 32 phone lines attached to it. The modem bank was in a back room, and consisted of a bunch of Bell 103 datasets (later upgraded to 1200-baud datasets, I think once 2000F came around). The CPUs I believe were 2100's, and there was a paper tape reader/punch unit. There was also the "fixed head" disk, and one could use the SANctify (as A000) command to make a program resident on the fixed head disk for much faster access. Swapping activities also occurred on the fixed head disk. I know that it existed, because the fixed disk "crashed" a few times, resulting in multi-day outages. Once 2000F came around, the fixed head disk wasn't needed, and reliability increased quite a bit. At first we had only ASR-33 teletypes, but once 2000F rolled around we started getting some DECWriter II's that could do 1200 baud. What a difference that made. Downside was that the DECWriters didn't have paper tape, so we had to resort to loading programs pre-punched on tape (we had a bunch of offline ASR33's for tape preparation) on one of the online ASR-33's to load new programs, then migrate to the DECWriters for test/debugging. > You can pretty much forget trying to get up 2000A or 2000B. > They required fixed head disks which just aren't to be found. Seems to me that it might be possible to build a pretty simple emulator for the fixed head disk device using either Battery-Backed static RAM, or perhaps fast flash memory. The tough part would be emulating the DMA cycles. > For 2000E, you need just one cpu, paper tape reader, and 7900 > disc drive. > Neither firmware nor mag tape required. Need that 12920/21 mux though. We never had 2000E, nor 2000A/B. On 2000/E, without a tape drive, how were backups done? The service bureau started with 2000C, and upgraded along the line to C', F, then added a second system that was running 2000F', then both systems were upgraded to 2000/Access over a period of time. Sometime in the early '80's, with the advent of microcomputers, schools started building up their own systems with BASIC (our high school built an IMSAI kit, and a Sol-20 while I was there), and started using these with 8K-BASIC to supplement the timeshare systems. I believe sometime around '84 or '85, the TSB systems were decommissioned, and offered for sale. Some acquaintences I know tried to pool financial resources to acquire them, but the IED wanted a LOT of money for them, even though they were quite antiquated by that time. To my knowledge, they sat for quite some time, and then were sold to a scrapper, who mercilessly destroyed the systems to reclaim the gold. I kept in touch with my teacher for a period of time after I graduated, and they had started using Apple II's as the primary teaching machines. Last I saw him, they had a Corvus shared disk drive connected to "networked" Apple II's. I then lost touch with him after the school district re-organized, and I've tried many times to try to find him, but to no avail. > For 2000/Access, you need two cpus, 7900/7905/7906/7920 > drive, 7970 tape, firmware, and 12920/21 mux. If your cpus > are 2100's, then you also must have a paper tape reader. > > The IOP firmware has been located for 2100, 21MX/M, and > 21MX/E. These can be copied, so that isn't the huge deal it > used to be. The 12920 muxes are still hard to find, the > 7900's are somewhat hard to find. The rest is fairly easily > obtainable these days. I'd love to find the pieces to put a system together, but given the scarcity of parts, and the costs involved, it's probably way beyond my means. Worse yet, as time goes by, the stuff becomes more and more scarce. Probably have to settle with memories of those fun times. -Rick From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 20 15:03:29 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:03:29 -0700 Subject: A new addition In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 20 Dec 2006 21:47:39 +0100. <11258.88.211.153.27.1166647659.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: In article <11258.88.211.153.27.1166647659.squirrel at webmail.xs4all.nl>, "Ed Groenenberg" writes: > > In article <22461.88.211.153.27.1166639960.squirrel at webmail.xs4all.nl>, > > "Ed Groenenberg" writes: > > > >> It's a PDP-11/23+ with a graphics option [...] > > > > I'd really like to hear more details about the graphics option if you > > get a chance. > > Well. it's VS11-FX/HX/JX graphics system (according to the Inst. manual). > Is there any specific info you want/need? Any and all information would be good :-). Particularly since I haven't heard of this graphics option before and bitsavers (amazingly enough) doesn't seem to have any docs on this. They have a manual for the VT11, but I'll assume that this is different being cctalk and not usenet. If you could get the documentation scanned, that would be awesome, but let's try these basics: Raster or vector? If vector: what is the number of vectors/second it can draw? is it calligraphic or storage scope based? If raster: What are the supported resolutions, refresh rates and color depths? Is it memory mapped frame buffer, or is it command-based? Does it have its own display list processor? Does it support 3D primitives natively? Does it have hardware rasterization? Does it have hardware bitblt? Is it advertised as having "real-time" response? Does it have a Z buffer? Does it have double-buffered color? Does it have hardware color palettes (LUT)? Does it have gamma correction (usually "yes" if it has a hardware LUT) >From googling around it seems to be a color raster device, but I couldn't find more information than that. I would love to see the docs sometime. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 20 15:11:46 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:11:46 -0700 Subject: Bell 103 Datasets (was: HP 2000F') In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 20 Dec 2006 12:57:16 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Rick Bensene" writes: > [...] I believe it had 32 > phone lines attached to it. The modem bank was in a back room, and > consisted of a bunch of Bell 103 datasets (later upgraded to 1200-baud > datasets, I think once 2000F came around). Speak of Bell modems, does anyone have a timeline or reference for modem equipment before the phone system was broken up and anyone was allowed to make them? Wikipedia has an entry for the Bell 103 300bps modem, which they say was released in 1962. There is also an entry for the Bell 202 1200bps modem with no date reference. Does anyone else have more complete information about modems before the diversity of manufacturers entered the scene? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Dec 20 15:40:55 2006 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:40:55 -0500 Subject: RTL - was Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03665C@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03665C@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <20061220164055.77916dd4@bluto.i16.net> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 12:57:00 -0800 "Billy Pettit" wrote: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Dec 2006 at 11:21, James B. DiGriz wrote: > > > Now that is something I didn't know and find very much worth looking > > into. Any quick pointers to info on RTL operating in this mode? > > I'll dig through my old literature. I recall that Motorola offered > an "Experimenter's Kit" of about 6 of their TO-99 packaged milliwatt > RTL circuits with some non-digital application notes. > > Anyone still have the little booklet that came with this kit? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > I know that RCA also had a nice set of Application Notes for > introducing RTL. I'm not certain I still have them - came out in > 1962. Some of the early RCA data books still had them inside. Maybe > one of our data book collectors has copies. If so, I'll be glad to > scan them. > > Al, does your data book collection have an RTL book? > > And I have seen an RTL CookBook-like manual with a bunch of circuits > in it. Would have been in 1969-70. I believe I bought it England. > Had a green cover, paper boards. I want to say Plessey published it, > but the synapses aren't firing on this one. Maybe one of our English > members remembers it? Any one have a copy? > > Billy I believe the prolific Mr. Lancaster wrote an RTL Cookbook. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor-transistor-logic Unfortunately I don't have a copy. jbdigriz From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Dec 20 15:43:33 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:43:33 -0800 Subject: Bell 103 Datasets (was: HP 2000F') Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03665D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Richard asked: Speak of Bell modems, does anyone have a timeline or reference for modem equipment before the phone system was broken up and anyone was allowed to make them? Wikipedia has an entry for the Bell 103 300bps modem, which they say was released in 1962. There is also an entry for the Bell 202 1200bps modem with no date reference. Does anyone else have more complete information about modems before the diversity of manufacturers entered the scene? -- Can't help you on the official time line. But I can put dates to my first contacts with them. I helped build a system for the IRS that used the Bell 101. This was in the fall of 1963. We had both Bell 301's and 103's in the lab. And retrofitted the 101's to 301's early in 1964. All of these units were transistor based. The first remote terminal systems we shipped to DARPA used racks of 101's driving teletypes. This was also late 1963. The first non-Bell data set I worked on was in 1967. It was a mature design, IC based, high volume, so probably started in 1966. Billy From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 20 15:42:43 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:42:43 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03665B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <45892019.29649.1BEA7CFE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4589AE53.67E258D3@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Billy Pettit wrote: > > > You've brought back a lot of memories, but not pleasant ones. He was one of > > the true characters to come out of our field. > > I wouldn't want to have one of his TV's in his collection, but maybe > a Stereo-Pak 4-track tape player or better yet, a Muntz Motors Jet > would find some space here. We have a Muntz TV in the radio museum here. Don't know how it made it's way up to the west coast of Canada. It's all "before my time", but I was told about his crazed persona in commercials, that's where the "Madman" attribution came from isn't it? Haven't had a chance to look at the TV from a technical perspective. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 20 15:45:25 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:45:25 -0800 Subject: RTL, was Re: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer References: <200612192223.kBJMNlDS050166@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4588051F.7865.17991C2C@cclist.sydex.com> <20061220112117.135b4c4f@bluto.i16.net> Message-ID: <4589AEF5.17ED81A8@cs.ubc.ca> "James B. DiGriz" wrote: > > On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 15:28:31 -0800 > "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > > The very interesting thing about RTL was that the ICs could be > > operated in the linear region for lots of non-logic applications. > > Now that is something I didn't know and find very much worth looking > into. Any quick pointers to info on RTL operating in this mode? Don't know about anything online, but in print keep your eye out for a copy of Don Lancaster's "RTL Cookbook" (Sams, 1969), the predecessor to his better known "TTL Cookbook". There's a chapter on "Linear Circuits and Techniques". Mostly it's just biasing an inverter into the linear region with a resistor to + on the input, but one of the cute tricks is to take two inverters in the same package, raise the GND pin (common emitter) above circuit GND with a resistor and so make a differential amplifier (...on the other hand, the 709 was around at that time...) Chuck Guzis wrote: >I'll dig through my old literature. I recall that Motorola offered >an "Experimenter's Kit" of about 6 of their TO-99 packaged milliwatt >RTL circuits with some non-digital application notes. >Anyone still have the little booklet that came with this kit? Bubble pack on mauve-colored cardboard backing? "Motorola HEP Integrated Circuit Experimenter Kit" "5 Prime Quality RTL I/C's" "$3.95" I have two unopened packs, the staple holes are present in the cardboard where presumably the booklet was attached, but the booklet is gone. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 20 15:49:30 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:49:30 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer References: Message-ID: <4589AFEA.F396BD45@cs.ubc.ca> "William Donzelli" writes: > I think it was the early Cray-1 line. Four chip types - 2 gates, a > flip flop, and a memory chip. > To me, it seems like a really dumb idea. [...] Richard wrote: > To me it seems like a smart idea. Concentrate on a few chips so that > you can get the manufacturing yields up, the cost per component down, While you two duke it out over the manufacturing practicalities :), I just have to add that my interest in a processor made from a single gate type was just for the esthetics of a 'universal machine made from a universal gate', or (to be high-falutin' about it) a physical embodiment of a fundamental principle. While the Cray-1 may have been a little late for such a design philosophy, apparently there was a period in IC development where it made practical sense. Aside from the AGC, I have an application note from RCA from 1967 for a small logic family (ECCSL Emitter-Coupled Current Steered Logic) composed of just 3 IC types: CD2150 dual 4-in gate CD2151 dual 4-in gate (different output drive specs from 2150) CD2152 8-in gate The app note includes diagrams for building standard functions (flip-flops, shift register, counters, adders, etc.) from only those ICs. No idea what equipment/machines they may have been used in. From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Dec 20 15:51:35 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:51:35 -0800 Subject: RTL - was Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03665E@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> James B. DiGriz wrote: I believe the prolific Mr. Lancaster wrote an RTL Cookbook. Unfortunately I don't have a copy. jbdigriz -------------------------- I think I have a copy of that book at home in Pleasanton. I'll be flying up Saturday morning and will have a look in the book case. If so, I should be able to get some scans of the pertinent sections for you. Do you live in the Bay area? I know copies of it have shown up on eBay in last 18 months, usually going for less than $10. Billy From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Dec 20 15:57:40 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:57:40 -0800 Subject: RTL Cookbook Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03665F@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Amazon has several used ones - try http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=067220715X/donlancastersgurA/ And Don's web page is always fun to visit : http://www.tinaja.com/ Billy From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 20 15:59:27 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:59:27 -0600 Subject: Bell 103 Datasets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4589B23F.7080506@yahoo.co.uk> Richard wrote: > Speak of Bell modems, does anyone have a timeline or reference for > modem equipment before the phone system was broken up and anyone was > allowed to make them? > > Wikipedia has an entry for the Bell 103 300bps modem, which they say > was released in 1962. There is also an entry for the Bell 202 1200bps > modem with no date reference. Does anyone else have more complete > information about modems before the diversity of manufacturers entered > the scene? It'd be interesting to correlate that with what was going on in the rest of the world too with regard to modems. In the UK at that sort of time you were presumably required to have a GPO (later BT) modem and nothing else, but I'm afraid the web seems to be rather sketchy on details. I have no idea what has happening in other countries as regards to digital comms, but it'd be interesting to hear from people who do... cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 20 16:06:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:06:07 -0800 Subject: RTL, was Re: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <4589AEF5.17ED81A8@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200612192223.kBJMNlDS050166@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4589AEF5.17ED81A8@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4589434F.25738.1C7407D2@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Dec 2006 at 13:45, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Bubble pack on mauve-colored cardboard backing? > "Motorola HEP Integrated Circuit Experimenter Kit" > "5 Prime Quality RTL I/C's" > "$3.95" > I have two unopened packs, the staple holes are present in the cardboard where > presumably the booklet was attached, but the booklet is gone. That's the one--and come to think of it, the ICs are probably TO-100 packaging, not TO-99. Too bad about the booklet, however. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 20 16:06:57 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:06:57 -0800 Subject: Mag Tapes References: <45897C16.1070500@srv.net> Message-ID: <4589B401.D39974D@cs.ubc.ca> Kevin Handy wrote: > > Anyone out there with a 800 BPI magtape drive that could read > some RSTS/E DecWord install tapes? Prefer a USA address, > due to shipping costs. Would like to make these images > available, but don't really want to spend $100 in shipping > costs. (5 tapes, about 6 lbs, from 83401) I imagine you'll find someone closer/more convenient but I'll just throw it out there: I'm in Vancouver, B.C., Canada area and can do character/binary dumps of 800 BPI tapes (equipment: HP 7970A drive / HP 2116 CPU). From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Dec 20 16:16:24 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:16:24 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036660@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> William Donzelli wrote: Adding just ten more chip types will not significantly increase manufacturing overhead. How many parts total were on the Cray-1 BOM? 10,000? 20,000? making it 10,010 or 20,010 is not going to strain the inventory folks. Also, by adding just ten more chip type, the total number of chips in the system will have gone down - perhaps by ten percent. That will greatly increase yield. Back in those hand-placed hand-soldered surface mount days, board errors were far more likely to be bad solder joints (using that old fashioned solder! horrors!) than misplaced parts. One of the Cray-1s faults was the somewhat miserable servicing requirements, and the crummy downtime that forced it. Fewer parts would have increased uptime (although many of the issues with the machines were not chip related). -- Will -------------------------- I think a bigger factor here was the consistentcy of switching time. All of Seymour's design are incredibly tight on switching time. He liked to line up signals so they would reach the next gate at the same time without requiring a clock. Having only one gate switch time would ease design. In all of his designs that I have worked on, he made flip flops and adders out of individual gates. Again to have exact control of the switching time. And to eliminate any un-necessary logic. There are no unused gates in any of his computers. So I don't think inventory count was a factor. It was just his design phiilosophy - minimum logic, exact timing. There is a great book on this: "Design of a Computer: 6600". Al has it on his site; well worth downloading and reading. Miserable servicing? As someone who spent literally years tuning wires in Seymour's designs, I have to agree. His machines were very demanding to impossible to maintain. Just before it died, I spent a few hours on the 8600. None of us on that machine believed it could be maintained! And the math models all gave the MTBF as a negative number! Billy From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 20 16:20:01 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:20:01 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <4589AFEA.F396BD45@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <4589AFEA.F396BD45@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <45894691.26850.1C80C1F1@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Dec 2006 at 13:49, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> While the Cray-1 may have been a little late for such a design philosophy, > apparently there was a period in IC development where it made practical sense. > Aside from the AGC, I have an application note from RCA from 1967 for a small logic > family (ECCSL Emitter-Coupled Current Steered Logic) composed of just 3 IC types: Some families of ECL were built along this line with gates with up to 6 outputs (NAND/AND and NOR/OR) that could be wire-ORed to form all sorts of interesting functions. (e.g. Moto MC1001). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 20 16:24:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:24:57 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <4589AE53.67E258D3@cs.ubc.ca> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03665B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <4589AE53.67E258D3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <458947B9.27860.1C854460@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Dec 2006 at 13:42, Brent Hilpert wrote: > We have a Muntz TV in the radio museum here. Don't know how it made it's way > up to the west coast of Canada. It's all "before my time", but I was told > about his crazed persona in commercials, that's where the "Madman" attribution > came from isn't it? Haven't had a chance to look at the TV from a technical perspective. Bob Pease remembers Muntz and even notes the verb "to Muntz": http://www.national.com/rap/Story/0,1562,17,00.html Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 20 16:31:00 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:31:00 -0600 Subject: HP 2000F' References: Message-ID: <003a01c72486$8970b0f0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Rick wrote.... > I believe that the NAM-, and Z999 thing were part of 2000C and 2000C'. > I may have accidentally implied that this existed in 2000F and beyond. > It didn't. We tried. I don't think the two are related is what I'm saying. The NAM- command existed in all TSB systems to my knowledge (except A and or B perhaps). In Access, there was nothing special about Z999, nor did it exist, unless some administrator happened to create an account that they happened to decide to call Z999. Maybe this is "an F thing". > Again, this likely was under 2000C or C', which I believe only supported > text file types. You know, I think you're right. I don't think 2000C supported ascii or device files, just basic formatted files. > My recollection is that in normal cases, the space on disk had to be > contiguous, so if there wasn't enough contiguous space to create the > file, the create would fail. I believe that's correct - at least during the create process. > When we did the NAM-, > trick, then did a "CATalog" command, the account was listed as Z999, and > not the account we were logged into originally. Wierd! I shall have to dig in to that. I have never seen a version of TSB that showed you what account you were on as a result of the CAT command. > Whatever the case, it's clear that the "CREate" > operation was a blocking operation. I think that's true on access too, I don't recall for sure. >> As you said, it's all site-dependent in terms of the amount of disk > space allocated for each account. Yeah, in high school I had S000 (student personal accounts were S001-S999) and was limited to 500 blocks or so. Suffice it to say I take a little nostalgic glee that I'm not hampered by that any longer ;) > We never had 2000E, nor 2000A/B. On 2000/E, without a tape drive, how > were backups done? 2000E took a rather different view of the disc drives than one would expect if you are familiar with the other versions. On 2000E a tape drive was not required and backups were done disc to disc (or on tape if you had it). There was lots of swapping of removable media, data backed from fixed to removable platters, it was a rather odd affair. It sort of made more sense actually, the fixed vs. removable platters were (somewhat) treated as separate drives. On 2000/Access (and I suspect C and/or F) drives that had fixed & removable platters were just treated as one drive - the removable media must always be present and it wasn't useful to swap/remove it (you couldn't address them separately in an intelligent way). > I'd love to find the pieces to put a system together, but given the > scarcity of parts, and the costs involved, it's probably way beyond my > means. Worse yet, as time goes by, the stuff becomes more and more > scarce. Probably have to settle with memories of those fun times. Eh, perhaps. Two things to consider. First, SIMH has a working simulation of HP2000/Access. So if you want to run it in emulation, it works and is a blast. Second, in the few bits of spare time that I manage to acquire here and there - I have projects afoot to make HP2000/Access able to run on MUCH easier to find hardware (but still vintage HP hardware). You'd still need a 21MX/E cpu (but those are common as dirt). I think there may be a way to get rid of the requirement for the IOP firmware, and get rid of the requirement for muxes altogether, as well as work with more easily available hard drives. In addition, I'd like to utilize DMS to access more than the 32K TSB normally will see. The hope is to also only require one cpu. Even if two cpu's are required, I was wondering if the processor interconnect kit (a lot of boards) could be removed and a direct interface via the MPP port could be utilitized. This would bring it into the range of able to being able to run on HP1000 systems that are still pretty common and easy to get ahold of these days. Jay From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 20 16:34:26 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:34:26 +0000 Subject: Modern compared to old (was: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance) In-Reply-To: <0c1201c72433$0fc99670$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: On 20/12/06 12:31, "Alexandre Souza" wrote: >> Don't get me started on the self-destructing properties of the 'new' >> Laserjet 4250/4350 fusers..... > > ?????????????????????????????????????????? > > Can you tell me (us?) more about that!?! Briefly (and OT of course) the top roller in the fuser is a thin foil and it manages to tear itself with not even a hint of user mangling. Once torn it can drop bits of metal into the rest of the printer...... We don't know why or how it does it, HP don't know either. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Dec 20 16:37:32 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:37:32 -0600 Subject: ancient mac disk warrior ? In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036654@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036654@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <4589BB2C.3020305@ubanproductions.com> I have a mac powerbook 150 circa 1994 which was an odd beast for apple at the time as it used an IDE drive to help reduce the cost. I have been using this machine to run MIDI recording software until recently when the hard drive has had some sort of failure, either software or hardware, I'm not sure which yet. The result is that when the machine attempts to boot, it does not recognize the formatting on the disk. I would like to try to recover the data (if possible) before re-formatting the drive, and I've heard that a program call disk warrior might be the solution. Does anyone have any comments or suggestions on this? --tnx --tom From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 20 16:39:01 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:39:01 -0700 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:16:24 -0800. <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036660@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: In article <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036660 at wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, "Billy Pettit" writes: > So I don't think inventory count was a factor. It was just his design > phiilosophy - minimum logic, exact timing. There is a great book on = > this: > "Design of a Computer: 6600". Al has it on his site; well worth = > downloading > and reading. in case anyone was wondering.... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Dec 20 16:40:20 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:40:20 -0800 Subject: HP 3000 update and apology to list Message-ID: <4589BBD4.3040304@msm.umr.edu> Apologize in that I found out the system was not an HP 3000, and I raised expectation of several list members about a system. The good news is that it is a nice HP 9000 900, which is nice and fast and has a good copy of HP/UX loaded, and will be visiting my house on a permanent basis when I get back after the new year. I have several of the visualize hp 9000's if anyone is into those, and wants some. I won't discard them but would be willing to share them if someone wants to come get them. Jim From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 20 16:42:52 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:42:52 -0600 Subject: HP 2000F' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4589BC6C.2010306@yahoo.co.uk> Rick Bensene wrote: > When the NAM-, trick was pulled, the 64K block size limit seemed to be > removed. The system would try to create a file of any size specified. > My recollection is that ... You know, it's the little stories about how some of this vintage kit was actually *used* which makes this list completely fascinating. Thanks for sharing that (even though I'm utterly clueless about HP stuff and don't have any particularly strong desire to learn) :-) cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 20 17:17:24 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 23:17:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036653@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> from "Billy Pettit" at Dec 19, 6 03:24:57 pm Message-ID: > Oh so cynical for such a young man! I work with lead free solder every = > day. > And WD builds tens of millions of drives with it every quarter. All = > without > "dry joints within a few months". =20 > > So why do you assume that good engineers wouldn't change the temperature = > of > the soldering machines? Processes change constantly. And every major I can't comment on whether it's possible to make reliable, long-lasting, devices with lead-free solder (although there seem to be exemptions for what I'd call 'critical' applications (military, aerospace, medical, etc) in the UK regulations which allow the use of leaded solder for such devices, so draw you own conclusions). But I can assure you I've had enough dry joints in modern stuff assembled with lead free solder to last me a lifetime. I've even had brand-new stuff that's had to be resoldered before it will work. And I've met plenty of other repairers (entusiasts and professionals) who have had the same problems. > producer of PCBs has had more than 5 years to move to lead free = > environment. > That was not a difficult change for competent manufacturing engineers to > make. > > Yet, I think this is the third or fourth time you've brought this up. = > You > must have had a bad experience someplace and are judging the technology = Not 'a' bad expeience, but many of them. > by > that experience. I know a lot of hobbyists, as well as lab technicians, = > were > annoyed at having to buy new soldering equipment for higher temperature > boards. I can't see what a hobbyist would have to bother -- at least in the UK, these directives only apply to equipment that's offered for sale. You cna do what yuou like in stuff you build for yourself. > > But the world has moved on. Lead free soldering is as good and in many > cases better than lead based soldering. On the data from more than 100 > million lead free PCBs, I can attest dry solder joints are not a = > problem. > > As for the cheapest plastic imaginable, I just don't see that in the > marketplace. My current assignment is working with DVRs, STBs and TVs = Perhaps your consumer electronic devices are built a lot better than ours. THis all started with a mention of a $89 VCR. Over here that's a '50 quid VCR' and yes, we get them at that sort of price. Now, when I last bought a VCR, some 15 years ago, it cost nearly \pounds 1000 (or 20 times as much). Are you seriously telling me that, even though there's been inflation in that time, a modern 50 quid machine is going to be as well made anf as long lasting. Becasue I simply don't see that. > using > disk drives. So I always have a couple of dozen units torn down on my > bench. What I see are vendors that have had 20+ years to refine their > design, their processes and their materials. I see components and = > systems > that have an order (or orders) of magnitude better reliability than the > products of 20 years ago. I think the big change is that 20 years ago there was good stuff and bad stuff out there. I mentioned I'd paid \pounds 1000 or so for a VCR. There were much cheaper machines around at the time, sure, and they probably have not lasted 15 years. But if you wanted to spend the money you could get one that lasted, that was maintainable (the manufacturers not only produced an excellent servive manual, but they sent it to me free of charge when I asked about it), etc. Now I see \pounds 50 VCRs and \pounds 20 DVD players and nothing else. I'd love to be able to spend more money and get a better machine, but I can't. > > This "everything old is good, everything new is crap" is not verified by = > the > data from the industry world wide. Some things do improve with time. > Especially in a cut throat competitive industry where warranty costs = > from > poor products will put you out of business in weeks. Customers (and in = > the > US, laws) demand reliable products. Companies don't survive if they = Not over here they don't. People upgrade because a new model is available with more features (they they probably will never use). Provided the machine lasts for the warranty period the manufacturer is happy. If it fails after that time he gets to sell another one. > Tony, you have your preferences and choices and more power to you. But = > if > you did a study of current state of the art electronics, you would find = > it > to be far superior to that of 20 years ago. Even if it won't provide a > maintenance manual. Sorry, I have looked at modern stuff and found that in many cases the performance and quality of construction is markedly inferior to that which I already own. Perhaps you could explain to me in what ways I am going to find it 'superior'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 20 17:31:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 23:31:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Modern compared to old (was: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Dec 20, 6 00:27:56 am Message-ID: > At this point I should say I work for a fully accredited DEC/Compaq/HP > maintenance company so we see a lot of printers. The most troublesome are > the newer ones, the so-called 'consumer grade' ones. Since HP won't sell > maintenance parts of these printers to the likes of us trained professionals > we have to rely on their own contracted service monkeys to 'fix' them. This reminds me of the time a plastic gear in my cheap Sharp photocopier failed. The gear had a D-shaped centre hole that fitted onto a shaft with a flat on it, and said hold had worn so that it simply slipped on the shaft. Anyway, Sharp would not sell be the replacement part. The official reason was 'safety' -- apprently there are high voltages inside the copier. Yes, there are, but I would bet mains is more likely to kill me, and anyway, they'd (a) quite happuily sell me the line output (flyback) transformer for one of their TVs and (b) you could fit this gear witout removing the main case of the copier). I feel the real reason for not supplying the part was to keep their faild servoids in a job. And I don't play that sort of game. Instead I did what I'd been planning to do for many years and bought a lathe with milling facilities (from a company that will supply spare parts, I hasten to add). And used that to repair the old gear (milled a slot it int and fitted a metal key). Also made a few other parts, rollers, etc, that were wearing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 20 17:34:52 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 23:34:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Dec 19, 6 10:30:16 pm Message-ID: > > > This "everything old is good, everything new is crap" is not verified by the > > data from the industry world wide. Some things do improve with time. > > One pet theory of mine is that many people see this, simply because > they are not seeing the whole sample. There were indeed plenty of old > things that were crap, and are now gone for good, discarded. People > tend to forget about those things, as they tend to remember only the > good old stuff. Likewise, they tend to forget about the modern things > that are good and work flawlessly, and remember the ones they have had > bad experiences with. > > Consumer electronics is no exception - look at old radios or > (especially) old TVs. There was a lot of crap back then... Of coruse there was, but there was good stuff as well. There were cheap radios that probably haven't survived and (at least in the UK) there were sets by the likes of Hacker and Robberts that are still going strong some 40 years later. But try as I might, I can't find well made consumer-type stuff on sale today. As I keep on saying I'd _love_ to be able to spend \pounds 2000 on a VCR or DVD player and have one that (a) lasts and (b) has a proper serive manual and parts backup. Alas I suspect I am the only person who feels this way so I can't blame the manufacturers for not making one. -tony. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 20 17:59:28 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 23:59:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Bell 103 Datasets In-Reply-To: <4589B23F.7080506@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 20, 6 03:59:27 pm Message-ID: > In the UK at that sort of time you were presumably required to have a GPO > (later BT) modem and nothing else, but I'm afraid the web seems to be rather I beleive so, since everything connected to the phone line had to be rented from the GPO. I can't help with dates, but I do have a few old ex-GPO modems in the collection. The Modem 2B is a large box (about 16" square and 7" high from memory. It's 300 baud, original and answer. The front panel opens by undoing 2 captice screws at the bottom and then hinging it up (there's a little 'stay' to keep it open). Insider are 4 plug-in modules -- PSU, Demodulator, Control, Modulator, with testpoints, fuses, and adjustments on the front panels. The modulator appears to be a VCO with switched control voltage. The demodulator has 'tobacco tins' which cotnain complex LC filter networks, and appears to work by mixingthe incoming signal with a lcoal oscillator, extracting the 'sum' frequency, and feeding that to a discrimiator circuit (similar to one of the standard ones used in FM radio receivers, I forget which). It's all discrete transistors and relays (in the control module), no ICs. The Modem D1200A is similar in construction and design (and seems to be the same case) but is 1200/75 baud (I forget which way round, it may well be the 'host' end of a Prestel link). The Modem 13A is somewhat later. It's a plinth that's screwed to the bottom of a type 746 telephone (one of the standard desk telephones of the 1970s). the phone has buttons to select voice or 'data' in front of the handset rest. The circuitry seems to use several metal-can (10 or 12 lead TO5-like cans) ICs that I know nothing about, and alas the schematic diagram inside the phone just shows the wiring to the extra switches and to the modem unit, no details of the internal circuitry of the modem itself. Again it seems to be 300 baud, probably originate only. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 20 17:59:32 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 23:59:32 +0000 Subject: ancient mac disk warrior ? In-Reply-To: <4589BB2C.3020305@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On 20/12/06 22:37, "Tom Uban" wrote: > attempts to boot, it does not recognize the formatting on the disk. I > would like to try to recover the data (if possible) before re-formatting > the drive, and I've heard that a program call disk warrior might be > the solution. Does anyone have any comments or suggestions on this? I've got some version of DiskWarrior here in the UK but it's a commercial product :o| Depending on its size I can send you an ISO of the CD but you'd need to track down your own serial number.... Ah, 170mb! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 20 18:10:53 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:10:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Targa/TIGA/??? was Re: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: <1FC698D0-370A-4690-9776-D76880039A2F@typewritten.org> Message-ID: <20061221001053.15856.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- "r.stricklin" wrote: > There are two separate things, the Truevision TARGA > family of frame > grab and true-color display boards (progenitor of > the .TGA format), > and the later family of display-list based graphics > accelerators > known collectively as TIGA, which featured the TI > 340x0 processor, > were made by many different vendors, and were > frequently 8514/A > compatible. The two have virtually nothing in common > apart from they > both describe ISA-bus hardware capable of displaying > raster images to > a color display. Hey wonderful. That's exactly what I wanted to know (???). > Other helpful information: So appreciated :) > The Electronic Photography and Imaging Center was > spun off of AT&T in > 1987 and became Truevision; the original TARGA > hardware were > apparently AT&T branded. > > .TGA supports up to 32-bpp data (24 bits of color, 8 > bits of alpha). > > Apropos of nothing in particular, I love how people > on this list > spout off half-cocked about stuff they think they > might vaguely > remember a little bit, maybe, and rarely bother to > do even a tiny bit > of fact checking first. Maybe there's other lists where you're likely to find your sensibilities less offended. But then again you'll probably run into lots of unchecked posts like this one. There's so much to check these days. It just makes sense to just ask sometimes ;). It seems at least you're in grudging agreement - you did take time to answer. And thanks again. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 20 18:13:33 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:13:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: ancient mac disk warrior ? In-Reply-To: <4589BB2C.3020305@ubanproductions.com> from "Tom Uban" at Dec 20, 2006 04:37:32 PM Message-ID: <200612210013.kBL0DXsi005127@onyx.spiritone.com> > I have a mac powerbook 150 circa 1994 which was an odd beast for apple > at the time as it used an IDE drive to help reduce the cost. I have > been using this machine to run MIDI recording software until recently > when the hard drive has had some sort of failure, either software or > hardware, I'm not sure which yet. The result is that when the machine > attempts to boot, it does not recognize the formatting on the disk. I > would like to try to recover the data (if possible) before re-formatting > the drive, and I've heard that a program call disk warrior might be > the solution. Does anyone have any comments or suggestions on this? > > --tnx > --tom For that vintage of a Mac I'd look at the right version of Norton Utilities for the OS you're running or maybe a suitably old copy of TechTool. As DiskWarrior is only on V3, I don't think it is old enough to support a PowerBook 150. Zane From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 20 18:20:25 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:20:25 -0600 Subject: ancient mac disk warrior ? In-Reply-To: <4589BB2C.3020305@ubanproductions.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036654@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <4589BB2C.3020305@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <4589D349.7010704@mdrconsult.com> Tom, I dunno how hard they are to find, but the post-2.0.x versions of FWB Hard Disk Toolkit support IDE. I have a Power Computing install CD around here that has a bundled version 2.5, but it boots MacOS v8. Will the PB 150 boot that? Doc Tom Uban wrote: > I have a mac powerbook 150 circa 1994 which was an odd beast for apple > at the time as it used an IDE drive to help reduce the cost. I have > been using this machine to run MIDI recording software until recently > when the hard drive has had some sort of failure, either software or > hardware, I'm not sure which yet. The result is that when the machine > attempts to boot, it does not recognize the formatting on the disk. I > would like to try to recover the data (if possible) before re-formatting > the drive, and I've heard that a program call disk warrior might be > the solution. Does anyone have any comments or suggestions on this? > > --tnx > --tom > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 20 18:21:32 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:21:32 -0600 Subject: Bell 103 Datasets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4589D38C.4010208@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I can't help with dates, but I do have a few old ex-GPO modems in the > collection. > > The Modem 2B is a large box (about 16" square and 7" high from memory. > It's 300 baud, original and answer. The front panel opens by undoing 2 > captice screws at the bottom and then hinging it up (there's a little > 'stay' to keep it open). Insider are 4 plug-in modules -- PSU, > Demodulator, Control, Modulator, with testpoints, fuses, and adjustments > on the front panels. Hmm yes, we have one of those at the museum; it's a wonderful bit of construction! I've been unable to work out if the 2B was the UK's first foray into modems or not though - was there ever an official 2A, or maybe a 1B or 1A that were even earlier? (I'm off over to the museum tomorrow, but I don't think any of the ex-GPO lot will be in to ask) There are some really good UK telecomms websites out there, but unfortunately whilst they cover phones and exchanges and test equipment, none of them seem to provide any details on the GPO modems... cheers Jules From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Dec 20 18:31:18 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:31:18 -0500 Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... In-Reply-To: References: <200612172043.52682.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4586018C.2010201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4589D5D6.9020903@nktelco.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > One thing I'm sort of looking for is my box of Twinax baluns. When I > find the box, I can hook a real 5250 up to a BA123-sized AS/400 that > was given to me a couple of years ago that I haven't been able to fire > up for lack of a console cable. :-/ Since twinax is shielded twisted pair, is a BALUN necessary? For a while, I used one twisted pair from about 50ft of ethernet CAT5 cable to connect the S/34 in my garage to a terminal in the house. The connectors on each end were two finish nails selected for the correct diameter. Worked fine while I was play with it. -chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 20 18:35:23 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:35:23 -0500 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036660@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036660@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: > I think a bigger factor here was the consistentcy of switching time. All of > Seymour's design are incredibly tight on switching time. He liked to line > up signals so they would reach the next gate at the same time without > requiring a clock. Having only one gate switch time would ease design. In > all of his designs that I have worked on, he made flip flops and adders out > of individual gates. Again to have exact control of the switching time. This makes no sense. In every ECL family I have seen, when gates are assembled onto one die to make a logic function, the sum is always faster (often by a good amount) than if the same design was done using individual gates. Even if the individual gates are hand picked for speed, the complete logic function will be faster. And there is nothing to keep anyone from hand picking the complex logic functions for speed, as well. There is also the speed gain of having more computing logic per board. For example in an individual gate design, the extra 2 inches of microstrip traces on the board, plus all the extras involved with getting the signal on and off each chip package, can add up to a significant part of a propagation delay of a gate. And, with more complex boards, the machine could get smaller, with a speed increase gained there as well, as the backplane (backnest?) would get smaller. > And to eliminate any un-necessary logic. There are no unused gates in any > of his computers. This is certainly a valid reason, and for some of his later designs I can see where an ECL ALU (100181, for example) may have too many extra things. Ok, perhaps a bad example, as I do not think Cray designs use ALUs, or 100K, but it is what springs to mind. But, with something like an and-or-invert gate, or even a multiplexer or demultiplexor, the off the shelf designs are basically minimized. I know the Cray-1s ECL was something like MECL III or 100K, and certainly whoever the chip maker was could have supplied some basic logic functions beyond a gate or two. I think the extra effort to use them would have been minimal, with a great payoff. > Miserable servicing? As someone who spent literally years tuning wires in > Seymour's designs, I have to agree. His machines were very demanding to > impossible to maintain. Just before it died, I spent a few hours on the > 8600. None of us on that machine believed it could be maintained! And the > math models all gave the MTBF as a negative number! I once heard that one of the big boxes in a computer room that hosted a Cray would have a fancy tag like "Disk Control" or something, but that was actually where the field engineer lived. -- Will From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Dec 20 18:37:57 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:37:57 -0500 Subject: ancient mac disk warrior ? References: <200612210013.kBL0DXsi005127@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <00ad01c72498$43202ec0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 7:13 PM Subject: Re: ancient mac disk warrior ? > > I have a mac powerbook 150 circa 1994 which was an odd beast for apple > > at the time as it used an IDE drive to help reduce the cost. I have > > been using this machine to run MIDI recording software until recently > > when the hard drive has had some sort of failure, either software or > > hardware, I'm not sure which yet. The result is that when the machine > > attempts to boot, it does not recognize the formatting on the disk. I > > would like to try to recover the data (if possible) before re-formatting > > the drive, and I've heard that a program call disk warrior might be > > the solution. Does anyone have any comments or suggestions on this? > > > > --tnx > > --tom > > For that vintage of a Mac I'd look at the right version of Norton Utilities > for the OS you're running or maybe a suitably old copy of TechTool. As > DiskWarrior is only on V3, I don't think it is old enough to support a > PowerBook 150. > > Zane > > I have a boxed copy of Central Points Mactools pro V4 that supports the 150. There are (6) 1.44MB HD disks in the box. I can image the disks if you have another Mac that can turn them back into floppies. From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Dec 20 18:40:24 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:40:24 -0500 Subject: EXAByte EXB-8500 tape drive available Message-ID: It's condition is unknown. It is taken out from a external SCSI case, and the HD from the same case works. The face panel is lost, but other parts look good. If you want it, you pay actual shipping from Ohio, US. Otherwise I will dispose it to the city computer recycling program (not to reuse, but to recycle the metal and plastic I guess). vax, 9000 From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Dec 20 18:41:47 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 00:41:47 -0000 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003b01c72498$cd011e60$7904010a@uatempname> Tony Duell wrote: > I think the big change is that 20 years ago there was good stuff and > bad stuff out there. I mentioned I'd paid \pounds 1000 or so for a > VCR. There were much cheaper machines around at the time, sure, and > they probably have not lasted 15 years. But if you wanted to spend > the money you could get one that lasted, that was maintainable (the > manufacturers not only produced an excellent servive manual, but they > sent it to me free of charge when I asked about it), etc. Now I see > \pounds 50 VCRs and \pounds 20 DVD players and nothing else. I'd love > to be able to spend more money and get a better machine, but I can't. pricerunner.com shows DVD players from ?17.89 to ?2495 (I'm not counting the three outliers at ?10,001 and ?20,001 and ?35,001 because I assume someone's mucking about with the database :-)). Interestingly VCRs are still available and they run from ?31.89 to ?599.99. Obviously there are far fewer VCRs than DVD players (or even DVD recorders I guess) and only two (both from JVC) live in the >?150 bracket. I make no claim that even the expensive ones will be well made, but expensive ones do exist and, for DVD players at least, they are not thin on the ground. I know that service manuals are available for Sony and Philips stuff and I see the odd JVC manual floating around on the net. I don't know how much they are to buy (as I've never needed to ask) but they do exist. Obviously anything modernmay well have custom Ics but then again a few of the manuals I've seen suggest that at least some of the ICs are common to multiple manufacturers units (i.e. they are made by someone other than the manufacturer and sold to anyone who wants to use them). They are not general purpose Ics and are unlikely to be used as anything other than their narrow intended purpose (e.g. random DVD processor or whatever) and they may not be readily available ten years (or five years) from now. But they might be (after all, valves still turn up as NOS). > Not over here they don't. People upgrade because a new model is > available with more features (they they probably will never use). > Provided the machine lasts for the warranty period the manufacturer > is happy. If it fails after that time he gets to sell another one. The thing had better last a good deal longer than the warranty as otherwise I won't be buying from that manufacturer (or even quite possibly the online store that sold me the goods) and I'm not alone in that. Perhaps I take it a little further than many others, but I know plenty of "run-of-the-mill" consumers who get cheesed off if their music centre packs in after a few years. I'll admit that they may well go out and buy a new one two-four years down the road, but if they keep it, it has to keep on working. (I'll admit that this generally does not seem to apply to mobile phones - no idea why not). > Sorry, I have looked at modern stuff and found that in many cases the > performance and quality of construction is markedly inferior to that > which I already own. > > Perhaps you could explain to me in what ways I am going to find it > 'superior'. Well for a start it is available now :-) If you don't want it, then that's fine. My Philips TV is about six years old now and gives a better picture than the DECCA Series 80 chassis that it replaced (although I'd still be watching the DECCA if the tube had not decided that enough was enough). If it breaks I might fix it (assuming its feasible) or I might replace it with a new flat screen. My ?30 DVD player gives perfectly satisfactory results (maybe if I had a 37" TV I'd think differently, but I don't ...) and my cheap (?40) VCR just keeps going (despite kids deciding to shove all sorts of garbage inside it, seemingly for fun). I'm not claiming they'll last 20 years but the VCR has made it to five or six so far, so I'm happy. Antonio From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 20 18:54:37 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:54:37 -0700 Subject: Bell 103 Datasets In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:21:32 -0600. <4589D38C.4010208@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <4589D38C.4010208 at yahoo.co.uk>, Jules Richardson writes: > There are some really good UK telecomms websites out there, but unfortunately > whilst they cover phones and exchanges and test equipment, none of them seem > to provide any details on the GPO modems... Yes, modems before deregulation are odd ducks. At least in the US they weren't under the postal service like most countries on the other side of the pond. Ma Bell may have been a monopoly, but it was operated more like a private company than the post office. However, it seems that every two-bit jurisdiction in Europe had their own telecomm regulations and special "equipment", so there must be lots of work to do for someone who collects early modems in Europe. :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Dec 20 19:49:04 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:49:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! In-Reply-To: <1A90F2EA-E716-4CB7-AE56-F66B2BDD9BDE@feedle.net> Message-ID: <20061221014904.383B02EC18@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by C. Sullivan > > First off, for 99% of us in the universe nowadays, C64Term for the PC > (as suggested on the website) simply won't work. Pretty much every > computer sold in the last 10 years is equipped with a Winmodem, and > real "hardware" modems have been impossible to find for the last 5. *Impossible*?!! I bought an external US Robotics 56K modem a few years ago from CompUSA and it has been working fine all that time on my QNX box through Vonage. Now it looks like CompUSA does not sell the *external* version anymore, but NewEgg still does. You can usually tell it is a *real* modem as the cost is closer to $100 instead of $10 - $20 for the WinModems... > I personally don't know of a better solution, other than to use a C64 > emulator and bind to whatever modem people have. I don't know what > the answer is, but hopefully somebody can figure out a Windows- > compatible solution. > C64 + IDE64? :) But I don't think there is any BBS software (yet!) that supports the IDE64. Note: there is also the DUART for the IDE64 which adds a dual port RS-232 interface. Or the ETH64 which adds an ethernet port... Cheers, Bryan From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Dec 20 19:59:31 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:59:31 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036665@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Tony Duell wrote: I can't comment on whether it's possible to make reliable, long-lasting, devices with lead-free solder (although there seem to be exemptions for what I'd call 'critical' applications (military, aerospace, medical, etc) in the UK regulations which allow the use of leaded solder for such devices, so draw you own conclusions). ---------------- I've put a call into a specialist friend who does mil-spec here. Last time I talked to him he said they couldn't use lead based. In fact most of his "hardened" designs had to be laser welded. But I want to verify what US mil-spec calls for currently. ------------------- But I can assure you I've had enough dry joints in modern stuff assembled with lead free solder to last me a lifetime. I've even had brand-new stuff that's had to be resoldered before it will work. And I've met plenty of other repairers (entusiasts and professionals) who have had the same problems. > producer of PCBs has had more than 5 years to move to lead free = > environment. > That was not a difficult change for competent manufacturing engineers to > make. > > Yet, I think this is the third or fourth time you've brought this up. = > You > must have had a bad experience someplace and are judging the technology = Not 'a' bad expeience, but many of them. > by > that experience. I know a lot of hobbyists, as well as lab technicians, = > were > annoyed at having to buy new soldering equipment for higher temperature > boards. I can't see what a hobbyist would have to bother -- at least in the UK, these directives only apply to equipment that's offered for sale. You cna do what yuou like in stuff you build for yourself. ---------------- Like you, many hobbists want to repair or modify equipment they buy. And even more simple users like myself, where I buy PCBs and salvage the parts I want. For example, I found some boards with 10 nanosecond 32Kx8 RAMS that were perfect for a logic analyzer I want to build. A bitch to get off, even though surface mount. Wish they were some of those bad joints you see - these almost had to be cut off. ------------------- > > But the world has moved on. Lead free soldering is as good and in many > cases better than lead based soldering. On the data from more than 100 > million lead free PCBs, I can attest dry solder joints are not a = > problem. > > As for the cheapest plastic imaginable, I just don't see that in the > marketplace. My current assignment is working with DVRs, STBs and TVs = Perhaps your consumer electronic devices are built a lot better than ours. THis all started with a mention of a $89 VCR. Over here that's a '50 quid VCR' and yes, we get them at that sort of price. Now, when I last bought a VCR, some 15 years ago, it cost nearly \pounds 1000 (or 20 times as much). Are you seriously telling me that, even though there's been inflation in that time, a modern 50 quid machine is going to be as well made anf as long lasting. Becasue I simply don't see that. > using > disk drives. So I always have a couple of dozen units torn down on my > bench. What I see are vendors that have had 20+ years to refine their > design, their processes and their materials. I see components and = > systems > that have an order (or orders) of magnitude better reliability than the > products of 20 years ago. I think the big change is that 20 years ago there was good stuff and bad stuff out there. I mentioned I'd paid \pounds 1000 or so for a VCR. There were much cheaper machines around at the time, sure, and they probably have not lasted 15 years. But if you wanted to spend the money you could get one that lasted, that was maintainable (the manufacturers not only produced an excellent servive manual, but they sent it to me free of charge when I asked about it), etc. Now I see \pounds 50 VCRs and \pounds 20 DVD players and nothing else. I'd love to be able to spend more money and get a better machine, but I can't. > > This "everything old is good, everything new is crap" is not verified by = > the > data from the industry world wide. Some things do improve with time. > Especially in a cut throat competitive industry where warranty costs = > from > poor products will put you out of business in weeks. Customers (and in = > the > US, laws) demand reliable products. Companies don't survive if they = Not over here they don't. People upgrade because a new model is available with more features (they they probably will never use). Provided the machine lasts for the warranty period the manufacturer is happy. If it fails after that time he gets to sell another one. ------------------------------------ This is one area I will agree with you. My experience at Philips exposed me to the enormous difference in consumer protection laws in the US versus the rest of the world. Philips management had a terrible time dealing with these differences. For example, if a box is even opened here, the unit automatically becomes "used" and has to be marked as such. (Usually referred to as white labelling.) Customers can return a product without giving any reason. It doesn't have to be a failure. Cosmetic damage consititutes a failure. This includes the packaging. Another huge difference is that refurbished units have to be sold as used, even if they have a new product warranty. (Philip's answer was to sell the reburished units through the employee stores.) This is also true if the unit was refurbished before it ever left the factory. Of course that rule is ignored by everybody. But big accounts like Apple and Dell still insist that no unit can be reworked. They demand only prime yield product. All of these laws were different from the typical consumer protection laws in Europe. There, many manufacturers used a 5% rule. 5% of what they ship is defective. They give the distributors extra units as a margin against returns. Sadly, many of the returns are sold as new. There are no laws in the Common Market to prevent this. Management used to this Euro environment had a terrible time adjusting to the US conditions. Some couldn't even understand the concept of a rebate: if you advertised a rebate, you have to pay it! That lesson cost several European companies tens of millions of dollars and government law suits to learn. One result of these differences is that European companies normally don't normally thrive in the US. The cultural gap in business is too great. When I went to work for Philips, no one I knew here was aware Philips made anything besides light bulbs. It is not a well known brand name here, like Sony and Panasonic. So I can accept that you see a much lower level of quality than is normal here in the US. We still see some crap, but we can do something about it. --------------------------- > Tony, you have your preferences and choices and more power to you. But = > if > you did a study of current state of the art electronics, you would find = > it > to be far superior to that of 20 years ago. Even if it won't provide a > maintenance manual. Sorry, I have looked at modern stuff and found that in many cases the performance and quality of construction is markedly inferior to that which I already own. Perhaps you could explain to me in what ways I am going to find it 'superior'. -tony --------------------- Tony, your heart and mind are in the past. No matter how many facts, figures, statistics I present, I will never convince you that today's world is as good as your golden age when everything was perfect. Why bother? It's just unpleasant for both of us. I've spent 46 years in the electronics industry, always on the cutting edge, and always striving for improvement. I see enormous changes, most for the good. You don't. I value my time too much to waste it on repairing minor appliances. You get great pleasure from that activity. We are never going to agree on what constitutes a good product - you want a maintenance manual and lots of spares; I want no failures and no hassles during a useful life cycle. I think we agree on a love of old computers and the need to keep a few alive. And we may share pleasure in designing and building little systems. But I wonder if you enjoy playing with PICs and FPGAs like I do, since little documention on the innards is available. And I know we disagree strongly on use of the internet, saving old manuals and sending photos, scans, software etc. That requires technology you are not willing to embrace. I have to admit I'm hoping to meet you next year. I'll be retiring then and we are going to spend half our time in Colechester and the other half in California. We are going to explore a lot of England that I still haven't seen. And attend a few science fiction conventions, hit the famous book stores in Wales, check out pub food, sample the local beers and in general do the things we always wanted to do but were too busy. Billy From geneb at simpits.com Wed Dec 20 20:17:54 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:17:54 -0800 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: <200612192014.kBJKEYL6006392@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200612192014.kBJKEYL6006392@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <4589EED2.5060301@simpits.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Also, Henk has some pictures on his PDP site of the building he >> constructed on his property in Holland. However, I don't know if this >> would be "cheap" to do here. Its more like a command bunker! > > Somehow I think that would cost a small fortune. I don't know how it works > out for something like that, but we are being told to estimate about $250 per > square foot for new contruction, if that is the route we go for a project > I'm involved with. Zane, if I were you I'd go with a pole barn. That's what I did for my shop. It's 60x36 with a 14 (well SUPPOSED to be) foot clear interior. You can read about the building adventure at http://www.f15sim.com. I just posted a big update. DO NOT hire a builder without getting face to face references from former customers. That bit me hard. g. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Dec 20 20:40:56 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:40:56 -0800 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: <4589EED2.5060301@simpits.com> References: <200612192014.kBJKEYL6006392@onyx.spiritone.com> <4589EED2.5060301@simpits.com> Message-ID: <4589F438.8010207@msm.umr.edu> Gene Buckle wrote: > > g. > Gene, you have a fantastic web site, I hope all go there and read about your move Thanks for posting it here. Jim From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Wed Dec 20 20:59:11 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:59:11 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036667@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> William Donzelli wrote: > I think a bigger factor here was the consistentcy of switching time. All of > Seymour's design are incredibly tight on switching time. He liked to line > up signals so they would reach the next gate at the same time without > requiring a clock. Having only one gate switch time would ease design. In > all of his designs that I have worked on, he made flip flops and adders out > of individual gates. Again to have exact control of the switching time. This makes no sense. In every ECL family I have seen, when gates are assembled onto one die to make a logic function, the sum is always faster (often by a good amount) than if the same design was done using individual gates. Even if the individual gates are hand picked for speed, the complete logic function will be faster. And there is nothing to keep anyone from hand picking the complex logic functions for speed, as well. ---------------------------------- Seymour Cray did not like to use clocks. For example, his designs call for all the outputs of an adder to be perfectly aligned. He also did not like carry propagation, and wanted all the carrys out at the same time as the data. I've never seen LSI that could achieve this on 64 bit operands. Compare the speeds of some of his arithemetic units, especially the parallel multipliers, to LSI contemporary to his design. --------------------------------- There is also the speed gain of having more computing logic per board. For example in an individual gate design, the extra 2 inches of microstrip traces on the board, plus all the extras involved with getting the signal on and off each chip package, can add up to a significant part of a propagation delay of a gate. And, with more complex boards, the machine could get smaller, with a speed increase gained there as well, as the backplane (backnest?) would get smaller. ---------------------------------- But the switching time of even one gate is longer than the 2 inches of foil. His designs actually use the layout to deskew circuits. And he was big on cordwood packaging to eliminate the length of signal runs. Signals going off a module in all of his designs, are carefully timed and include the foil length and the board interconnects, be they wire or coaxial. All of what you say was true and carefully considered during design. Even where the modules were placed in a chassis was taken into account. I remember one chassis was completely re-laid out, to put the carry circuits in the center of the chassis because they had the longest propgation paths. ----------------------------------------------- > And to eliminate any un-necessary logic. There are no unused gates in any > of his computers. This is certainly a valid reason, and for some of his later designs I can see where an ECL ALU (100181, for example) may have too many extra things. Ok, perhaps a bad example, as I do not think Cray designs use ALUs, or 100K, but it is what springs to mind. But, with something like an and-or-invert gate, or even a multiplexer or demultiplexor, the off the shelf designs are basically minimized. I know the Cray-1s ECL was something like MECL III or 100K, and certainly whoever the chip maker was could have supplied some basic logic functions beyond a gate or two. I think the extra effort to use them would have been minimal, with a great payoff. --------------------------------- When he left CDC, he looked at commercial logic families. And I believe he did do a design with MECL III. CDC proper moved on to MECL 10K for the Cyber 170s and MECL 100K for the STARs and ETA systems. Some CDC designs also used proprietory logic designs. But by then commercial logic suppliers were able to do a better job than in-house designers could and they were cheaper. Most of the in-house foundries were sold. CDC's was, and so was DEC's and Data General's. IBM moved on to be the power house foundry it is today. Makes you wonder who was right. Meanwhile, Seymour moved into more exotic logic trying to get more speed. I think he was working on a weird gallium-arsenide wafer scale design at the time of his death. At the time of the 6600, 7600 and Cray 1, there was no commercial family that could equal the speed of the Cray designs. Some came along (10K/100K) but they were real power hogs. Every gate had complimentary outputs. Every signal had to be terminated. The heat generated was so great that every IC had a heat sink under it, and the heat sink went to a freon cooled cold plate. I spent 4 year designing with MECL 10K. The experience was enough to convince to get out of design and go back to the field. It was a miserable family to work with. And I can assure you that there was skew on the outputs of any of the LSI blocks, but really bad on the 10181. Even with the special carry circuits, it took weeks of wire tuning to get the 96 bit floating point adder to work. We used to go back to the source (Seymour's design in the 7600) and marvel at it. 5 years after he designed it using transistors, we were still trying to equal his performance with MECL. ------------------------------- > Miserable servicing? As someone who spent literally years tuning wires in > Seymour's designs, I have to agree. His machines were very demanding to > impossible to maintain. Just before it died, I spent a few hours on the > 8600. None of us on that machine believed it could be maintained! And the > math models all gave the MTBF as a negative number! I once heard that one of the big boxes in a computer room that hosted a Cray would have a fancy tag like "Disk Control" or something, but that was actually where the field engineer lived. --------------------------------- On my last field site, my office was called "Spares." -------------------------------------- Billy From geneb at simpits.com Wed Dec 20 21:06:04 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:06:04 -0800 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: <4589F438.8010207@msm.umr.edu> References: <200612192014.kBJKEYL6006392@onyx.spiritone.com> <4589EED2.5060301@simpits.com> <4589F438.8010207@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4589FA1C.2040007@simpits.com> jim stephens wrote: > Gene Buckle wrote: >> >> g. >> > Gene, > you have a fantastic web site, I hope all go there and read about your move > > Thanks for posting it here. Thanks Frank, I'm glad you enjoyed it. It's certainly a labor of love. Nearly on-topic too. The TEWS computer (which I don't have) is based on a 6800B. :) g. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 20 21:11:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:11:06 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036667@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036667@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <45898ACA.31461.1D8B3C9F@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Dec 2006 at 18:59, Billy Pettit wrote: > When he left CDC, he looked at commercial logic families. And I believe he > did do a design with MECL III. CDC proper moved on to MECL 10K for the > Cyber 170s and MECL 100K for the STARs and ETA systems. I'm not sure if the original STAR-100 design was MECL 10K--I think that was later. I do recall that Fairchild just about sunk the whole project with a very, very late delivery of silicon for the register file (256x64 bit). Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 20 21:16:01 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:16:01 -0700 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:49:04 -0500. <20061221014904.383B02EC18@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: In article <20061221014904.383B02EC18 at mail.wordstock.com>, bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) writes: > And thusly were the wise words spake by C. Sullivan > > > > First off, for 99% of us in the universe nowadays, C64Term for the PC > > (as suggested on the website) simply won't work. Pretty much every > > computer sold in the last 10 years is equipped with a Winmodem, and > > real "hardware" modems have been impossible to find for the last 5. > > *Impossible*?!! I bought an external US Robotics 56K modem a few > years ago from CompUSA and it has been working fine all that time > on my QNX box through Vonage. Not impossible :-) Try -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Dec 20 22:31:17 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:31:17 -0600 Subject: ancient mac disk warrior ? In-Reply-To: <4589D349.7010704@mdrconsult.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036654@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <4589BB2C.3020305@ubanproductions.com> <4589D349.7010704@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <458A0E15.20004@ubanproductions.com> I'm not certain if it would boot v8 or not. I'm guessing that it was running v6 or v7. --tom Doc Shipley wrote: > Tom, > > I dunno how hard they are to find, but the post-2.0.x versions of FWB > Hard Disk Toolkit support IDE. I have a Power Computing install CD > around here that has a bundled version 2.5, but it boots MacOS v8. Will > the PB 150 boot that? > > > Doc > > Tom Uban wrote: >> I have a mac powerbook 150 circa 1994 which was an odd beast for apple >> at the time as it used an IDE drive to help reduce the cost. I have >> been using this machine to run MIDI recording software until recently >> when the hard drive has had some sort of failure, either software or >> hardware, I'm not sure which yet. The result is that when the machine >> attempts to boot, it does not recognize the formatting on the disk. I >> would like to try to recover the data (if possible) before re-formatting >> the drive, and I've heard that a program call disk warrior might be >> the solution. Does anyone have any comments or suggestions on this? >> >> --tnx >> --tom >> > > > From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Dec 20 22:33:38 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:33:38 -0600 Subject: ancient mac disk warrior ? In-Reply-To: <00ad01c72498$43202ec0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <200612210013.kBL0DXsi005127@onyx.spiritone.com> <00ad01c72498$43202ec0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <458A0EA2.4040509@ubanproductions.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Zane H. Healy" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 7:13 PM > Subject: Re: ancient mac disk warrior ? > > >>> I have a mac powerbook 150 circa 1994 which was an odd beast for apple >>> at the time as it used an IDE drive to help reduce the cost. I have >>> been using this machine to run MIDI recording software until recently >>> when the hard drive has had some sort of failure, either software or >>> hardware, I'm not sure which yet. The result is that when the machine >>> attempts to boot, it does not recognize the formatting on the disk. I >>> would like to try to recover the data (if possible) before re-formatting >>> the drive, and I've heard that a program call disk warrior might be >>> the solution. Does anyone have any comments or suggestions on this? >>> >>> --tnx >>> --tom >> For that vintage of a Mac I'd look at the right version of Norton > Utilities >> for the OS you're running or maybe a suitably old copy of TechTool. As >> DiskWarrior is only on V3, I don't think it is old enough to support a >> PowerBook 150. >> >> Zane >> >> > > I have a boxed copy of Central Points Mactools pro V4 that supports the 150. > There are (6) 1.44MB HD disks in the box. I can image the disks if you have > another Mac that can turn them back into floppies. > > > This is the only mac that I have, a friend has a modern mac which I'm guessing doesn't even have a floppy... I have to admit a fair amount of mac ignorance. Would the tools mentioned likely be able to recover files from the disk? --tnx --tom From jtp at chinalake.com Wed Dec 20 22:38:13 2006 From: jtp at chinalake.com (JTP) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 23:38:13 -0500 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance (silicon) In-Reply-To: <200612202213.kBKMDFoq076343@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001201c724b9$d38bc250$db64c80a@prozac> >Silicone is pretty mushy stuff. I wonder if a polyurethane elastomer such as Lexel might work a bit better? >I use it for caulking around water and it's very sticky and sets to a fairly firm texture. >Cheers, >Chuck Oh, it's 'mushy'; used it to feed very fine paper w/o deforming it. It gets a bit of paper dust on it and feeds very nicely. It doesn't work for a pinch-pickup. I had access to fun industrial stuff in the long ago, but I've since used a number of 3M, Loctite silicon/poly/ure electronic encapsulants and consumer/commercial sealants (RTV and heat). I am sure there is stuff that takes to high density and speed better, but my expertise in this area is finite. Cheer, jp From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 20 23:03:56 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 00:03:56 -0500 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036667@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036667@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: > Seymour Cray did not like to use clocks. For example, his designs call for > all the outputs of an adder to be perfectly aligned. He also did not like > carry propagation, and wanted all the carrys out at the same time as the > data. I've never seen LSI that could achieve this on 64 bit operands. > Compare the speeds of some of his arithemetic units, especially the parallel > multipliers, to LSI contemporary to his design. Yes, I can understand that the off the shelf ECL adders would not work for his designs, but what about using the MSI chips? I bet if you looked at his adder, all you would see would be a bunch of OR/NORs. Stack the OR/NORs up, and you get AND/OR/INVERT gates. Certainly his chip guys could have come up with a few flavors of AOI gates (apparently they could make JK flip flops) to play with, and things would go faster. No clocks involved. Same with demuxes - stack a bunch of OR/NORs into AOIs, then stack those and you can get demuxes and muxes, and clocking is still not an issue. I can not get to my databooks now, but to use the 100K analogy, you could make a faster adder if you had 100101, 100102, 100117s and 100118s to play with, instead of just 100101s and 100102s. Sure, you would have some unused inputs - ECL does not care. The board would also be smaller, and probably use less power. > But the switching time of even one gate is longer than the 2 inches of foil. Yes, but if you do not have the delay of the foil because it "goes away" inside a complex logic function on a chip, great - more room to work with... > His designs actually use the layout to deskew circuits. ...and if you do have to deskew, now you have the room to do it. If you eat propagation delays using individual gates, you have no room to play with. > When he left CDC, he looked at commercial logic families. And I believe he > did do a design with MECL III. What design was that? Do you know why he did not stick with it? MECL III was often rather difficult to deal with - but all ECL was until 100K. > At the time of the 6600, 7600 and Cray 1, there was no commercial family > that could equal the speed of the Cray designs. What were the specs for the ECL used in the Cray-1? I have always understood them to be somewhat close to what MECL III or 100K offered - roughly 1 ns for a simple gate. > Some came along (10K/100K) > but they were real power hogs. Comes with the territory. > Every gate had complimentary outputs. Most ECL guys I know of actually liked this feature. Gets rid of the NOTs. > Every > signal had to be terminated. Yes, but ECL does this correctly. At these speeds, if transmission lines are not used, trouble is sure to follow. > I spent 4 year designing with MECL 10K. The experience was enough to > convince to get out of design and go back to the field. It was a miserable > family to work with. And I can assure you that there was skew on the > outputs of any of the LSI blocks, but really bad on the 10181. I have never heard anyone say much nice about 10K. It seems that most guys much prefer the latter 10KH and 100K, mostly due to better stability with voltage and temperature swings. 100K also was much better at getting skew problems solved. -- Will, who looked at 10G for a minute, then ran away. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Dec 20 23:56:14 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 00:56:14 -0500 Subject: ancient mac disk warrior ? References: <200612210013.kBL0DXsi005127@onyx.spiritone.com> <00ad01c72498$43202ec0$0b01a8c0@game> <458A0EA2.4040509@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <00ec01c724c4$b9bc3de0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Uban" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 11:33 PM Subject: Re: ancient mac disk warrior ? > This is the only mac that I have, a friend has a modern mac which > I'm guessing doesn't even have a floppy... > > I have to admit a fair amount of mac ignorance. Would the tools > mentioned likely be able to recover files from the disk? > > --tnx > --tom No idea, that is like asking me if a socket set would fix your truck without seeing it. If you know nothing about the machine then you have to decide if the files are worth the money to take the machine to a Mac repair shop (or to somebody you trust that knows about that vintage Mac). From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 21 00:17:57 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:17:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: ancient mac disk warrior ? In-Reply-To: <458A0E15.20004@ubanproductions.com> from Tom Uban at "Dec 20, 6 10:31:17 pm" Message-ID: <200612210617.kBL6Hv1n015104@floodgap.com> > > I dunno how hard they are to find, but the post-2.0.x versions of FWB > > Hard Disk Toolkit support IDE. I have a Power Computing install CD > > around here that has a bundled version 2.5, but it boots MacOS v8. Will > > the PB 150 boot that? > I'm not certain if it would boot v8 or not. I'm guessing that it was > running v6 or v7. The 150 is a '030 PowerBook, so it will not boot OS 8 natively (it needs a hack like Born Again). It doesn't run System 6, so it must be running some form of System 7 (it came with 7.1 IIRC). Amazingly, Disk Warrior *should* work on this unit -- it does have 68K code and it does support IDE. Officially, it requires an '020 or better running 7.1 or higher and the 150 should support all that. On my DiskWarrior 3.0.3 CD there is a complimentary copy of DiskWarrior 2.1.1 for Classic. It's 1.3MB, though, so you're going to need to find an external drive to boot from. This isn't going to fit on a Disk Tools floppy with the OS. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- How do you explain school to a higher intelligence? -- Elliott in "E.T." --- From wsj at garlic.com Wed Dec 20 17:48:30 2006 From: wsj at garlic.com (Wayne Johnson) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:48:30 -0800 Subject: Other Bazaar Boards Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061220154104.03220248@mailin.garlic.com> HI, I saw your post about, what ever happened to John Bell. We were friends in high school, but I lost touch with him. Yesterday I learned he passed away. He is listed as deceased on our high school web site. Do you know any other information about John? Thanks, Wayne http://classreport.org/main/classdirectory.asp?dname=/usa/ca/san_mateo/smhs/&clid=11399&cl=1966&hs=SMHS&clr1=orangered&clr2=black&clr3=lightgrey&stcnt=325&ch=B&f=d The John Bell 6502 board used to be advertised in the back pages of pre-1980 Byte magazines, along with a selection of other JB cards. I seem to recall the 6502 card was minimal-chip system essentially aimed at "embedded processor" type applications. So I don't think it came with a preprogrammed EPROM; you were expected to develop your own firmware for it. They had another bare board for a video display terminal based on an Intel 8085 (basically an implementation of the circuit in an Intel application note) and they also sold some low-cost interface cards for Apple II parallel interfacing using the 6522 VIA chips that were then popular in Commodore Pets. I remember building a couple of those JB interfaces for lab experiments. I wonder who "John Bell" was and whatever happened to him? Arlen Michaels From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Dec 20 23:52:01 2006 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 05:52:01 -0000 Subject: Bell 103 Datasets Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393D29@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi It was not mandatory to use BT modems but they were suppposed to be approved with a (BATB) sticker on the bottom. Both Hayes and USR produced UK versions. Plus there were some UK made modems eg Modular Techology & Dowty. Priot to that UK acoustic couplers where available. I remember connecting to a time sharing service (RSTS on an 11/70) using a ModTech coupler whilst working on VDU design circa 1973. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 20 December 2006 23:59 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Bell 103 Datasets > In the UK at that sort of time you were presumably required to have a > GPO (later BT) modem and nothing else, but I'm afraid the web seems to > be rather I beleive so, since everything connected to the phone line had to be rented from the GPO. I can't help with dates, but I do have a few old ex-GPO modems in the collection. The Modem 2B is a large box (about 16" square and 7" high from memory. It's 300 baud, original and answer. The front panel opens by undoing 2 captice screws at the bottom and then hinging it up (there's a little 'stay' to keep it open). Insider are 4 plug-in modules -- PSU, Demodulator, Control, Modulator, with testpoints, fuses, and adjustments on the front panels. The modulator appears to be a VCO with switched control voltage. The demodulator has 'tobacco tins' which cotnain complex LC filter networks, and appears to work by mixingthe incoming signal with a lcoal oscillator, extracting the 'sum' frequency, and feeding that to a discrimiator circuit (similar to one of the standard ones used in FM radio receivers, I forget which). It's all discrete transistors and relays (in the control module), no ICs. The Modem D1200A is similar in construction and design (and seems to be the same case) but is 1200/75 baud (I forget which way round, it may well be the 'host' end of a Prestel link). The Modem 13A is somewhat later. It's a plinth that's screwed to the bottom of a type 746 telephone (one of the standard desk telephones of the 1970s). the phone has buttons to select voice or 'data' in front of the handset rest. The circuitry seems to use several metal-can (10 or 12 lead TO5-like cans) ICs that I know nothing about, and alas the schematic diagram inside the phone just shows the wiring to the extra switches and to the modem unit, no details of the internal circuitry of the modem itself. Again it seems to be 300 baud, probably originate only. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Dec 21 01:21:34 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 23:21:34 -0800 Subject: ancient mac disk warrior ? References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036654@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <4589BB2C.3020305@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <458A35FF.9DBE98F3@cs.ubc.ca> Tom Uban wrote: > > I have a mac powerbook 150 circa 1994 which was an odd beast for apple > at the time as it used an IDE drive to help reduce the cost. I have > been using this machine to run MIDI recording software until recently > when the hard drive has had some sort of failure, either software or > hardware, I'm not sure which yet. The result is that when the machine > attempts to boot, it does not recognize the formatting on the disk. I > would like to try to recover the data (if possible) before re-formatting > the drive, and I've heard that a program call disk warrior might be > the solution. Does anyone have any comments or suggestions on this? .. don't know if this is any help or if you are already beyond this stage: There is a program from Apple: "Disk First Aid" that comes with the system install disks (CD or floppies) for the Classic systems. If you have the install disks you should be able to boot from them, run Disk First Aid and it may be able to fix the hard disk. Disk First Aid is not comprehensive though: for trashed-disk problems that I have had, sometimes it has been able to recover the disk and sometimes it hasn't. When it hasn't, other programs have sometimes been able to do the recovery. The 'other programs' that I have are on another machine, I could fire it up to recall which was 'best' in my experience. Do you know that the problem is trashed formatting (file structure), as opposed to trashed system files, that are causing the boot to fail? If it is the latter you may be able to, again, boot from the install media, and reinstall just the system files without having to reformat the disk (and not disturb your data files). Or if you can you can find an opportunity to install the disk as a secondary (non-boot) disk on another Mac, you may be able to access your data files immediately, copy them off, then reinstall the system, or reformat. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Dec 21 01:30:15 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 02:30:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200612210745.CAA16495@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I think the big change is that 20 years ago there was good stuff and > bad stuff out there. I mentioned I'd paid \pounds 1000 or so for a > VCR. [...] Now I see \pounds 50 VCRs and \pounds 20 DVD players and > nothing else. I'd love to be able to spend more money and get a > better machine, but I can't. Actually, I suspect you can, but you just don't know where/how. That is, I would say the difference is that then, the good stuff was still available in mass-market shops (even if only higher-end ones); now, it's harder to find than that. As an exmaple, I relatively recently (sometime around '00, I think) saw a computer that as far as software went was a bog-standard peecee, but was built, mechanically, kind of like those old black rotary-dial phones from the pre-breakup Bell System, the ones you can stand in boiling water overnight and drop ten feet onto concrete and the worst that'll happen is you'll chip the casing: it used a heavy grade of sheet steel - it could probably take a person standing on it in any orientation - and everything was braced six ways from Sunday. It actually looked as though it were targeted at a remote installation, the sort of thing where it costs so much to send someone out to fix it that an extra $5000 on the sticker price is ignorable. I don't know (and don't think I want to know) what it cost, but it was *beautifully* built. This is relevant because I've seen only one such, and have never seen one for sale anywhere - if I'd not chanced to see that one, I'd have no reason to think such a thing exists as a commercial product. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bear at typewritten.org Thu Dec 21 01:55:31 2006 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 23:55:31 -0800 Subject: Targa/TIGA/??? was Re: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: <20061221001053.15856.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061221001053.15856.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <425E0E61-D288-4F31-AA99-A04AEBFA1AC2@typewritten.org> On Dec 20, 2006, at 4:10 PM, Chris M wrote: > Maybe there's other lists where you're likely to find > your sensibilities less offended. But then again > you'll probably run into lots of unchecked posts like > this one. There's so much to check these days. It just > makes sense to just ask sometimes ;). It seems at > least you're in grudging agreement - you did take time > to answer. And thanks again. No, there's nothing wrong with asking questions, nothing at all. Sometimes you have to have a little knowledge about something before you can effectively research it, and it can be hard to get up over that first hump without a little push from somebody else (it happened to me when I was learning about the AS/400, for example). What bugs me is some of the useless or blatantly wrong "answers" that appear from time to time. If you're giving information and you write something like this contrived example: "I remember the Commodore 64 we had at school, back in 1979" it is not only careless, but disruptive as well. Wikipedia suffers from this sort of thing also. Still, it was an unnecessarily cranky thing to say on a public list, and I apologize to the listmembers for it. ok bear From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Dec 21 02:08:24 2006 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 00:08:24 -0800 Subject: ancient mac disk warrior ? In-Reply-To: <4589D349.7010704@mdrconsult.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036654@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <4589BB2C.3020305@ubanproductions.com> <4589D349.7010704@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <458A40F8.5030700@socal.rr.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Tom, > > I dunno how hard they are to find, but the post-2.0.x versions of FWB > Hard Disk Toolkit support IDE. I have a Power Computing install CD > around here that has a bundled version 2.5, but it boots MacOS v8. Will > the PB 150 boot that? > > > Doc > > Tom Uban wrote: >> I have a mac powerbook 150 circa 1994 which was an odd beast for apple >> at the time as it used an IDE drive to help reduce the cost. I have >> been using this machine to run MIDI recording software until recently >> when the hard drive has had some sort of failure, either software or >> hardware, I'm not sure which yet. The result is that when the machine >> attempts to boot, it does not recognize the formatting on the disk. I >> would like to try to recover the data (if possible) before re-formatting >> the drive, and I've heard that a program call disk warrior might be >> the solution. Does anyone have any comments or suggestions on this? >> >> --tnx >> --tom >> > I used to use a StarMax mac clone from Motorola, same as a powermac 4400 in many ways, and I remember some generic problems that would do that, but not much more. First I would suggest doing some kind of drive image, then look at maybe booting from an external drive. I didn't use Disc Warrior, but I had FWB toolkit and Norton. Good luck, wow I am amazed at how little I remember. I think the problem might be something like the PC worlds disc overlay stuff. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Dec 21 03:37:04 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 01:37:04 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03665B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, <4589AE53.67E258D3@cs.ubc.ca> <458947B9.27860.1C854460@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <458A55C1.E749DCF3@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Bob Pease remembers Muntz and even notes the verb "to Muntz": > > http://www.national.com/rap/Story/0,1562,17,00.html Great story, thanks for finding that.. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Dec 21 03:38:36 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 01:38:36 -0800 Subject: early IC ident: Sperry 1M4 References: <458886CB.AA792975@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <458A561D.49F704B@cs.ubc.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > For a while back in the 1960s, Univac was in the 2 1/2 generation, > like IBM with SLT. They used IC like things, but with all the logic > steering diodes external to the chip. Interesting, Japanese calcs from that era were somewhat similar: flip-flops, inverters and some gates in PMOS ICs, but most of the gates composed from discrete diodes. Were the Univac "IC like things" recognisable as not being ICs (thick film modules or such) or were they in some standard IC package? From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Dec 21 04:14:30 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 02:14:30 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance -is Earl Muntz- In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03665B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03665B@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <458A5E86.70404@msm.umr.edu> Billy Pettit wrote: > > Ahh - there's a flood of bad memories. What a bunch of utter crap he turned > out. Two or three functions on one vacuum tube. Remove parts one at a time > until the set doesn't work. Then add the last one back in. Sheet metal > from tin cans. High voltage wires with poor shielding. > There is an interesting post later in this thread that links to an article from Popular Electronics about Muntz. I scrounged around LA when I first got here in 1976, and ran across the Muntz store in Huntington Beach. It was on the loop of places that was interesting to stop and visit when visiting junk stores (this is my justification for not being totally off topic and boring). They had stereo equipment and TV sets in one part of the store, and odds and ends in another storefront. One could find surplus at one time there, of all sorts, but later it tended to be just audio stuff. One of the last things I saw there was when Technicolor had built up a single video cassette recorder / monitor unit, which was quite a nice package. Before Muntz quit showing up there, they were selling a kit with a big Fresnel lens and a screen, and a kit to mount your TV set upside down, so you could have "projection TV" with your brightness turned all the way up. Also good to visit was ACP, Marvac (pre move), Wright hardware (before Wright family sold out). to see what sorts of gizmos were there. I figured I was very privileged to have the opportunity to visit with Mr. Muntz as much as I did, as he was just an ordinary guy to visit with, not what one would have ever expected. Jim From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 21 08:37:38 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 11:37:38 -0300 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036665@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <0f0301c7250d$b72e0ec0$f0fea8c0@alpha> >We are never going to agree on what constitutes a good product - you want a >maintenance manual and lots of spares; I want no failures and no hassles >during a useful life cycle. Billy, I think this is the point: Useful life cycle. A VAX isn't useful today. This is a toy. I'll not even think about using a 11/750 to run a payroll or calculating some numbers. There are better, faster, cheaper options today. But we can talk about my loved HP4Plus. This printer serves me perfectly. There is no feature I need that this printer doesn't have! It even has a network port, so I can use that from any of my networked computers without a printer server. It has a 600DPI (true) output, and prints nice graphics. Has lots of memory and runs without a hassle. Why should I buy another laser printer? The useful life cycle of my HP4 is something short of forever, I have no need to upgrade my printer. Maybe to a colour laser printer, but the cost of ownership is too high for my needs. So this HP4+ will be with me for a long time (and I have it for some 5 or 6 years already). I have the service manual and parts are cheap. I even have a personal stock of probable failures: Lamp, fuser roller, pressure roller, fuser roller gear, complete gear module, main motor and power supply. So it WILL last forever :) Lets jump to the other point of the rope: My XBOX. I have a 1.1 XBOX that I use as a videogame, youtube browser, PVP (personal video player), ftp server, etc. It serves me and has a good and warm place in my heart. I'll not have money for buying a ps3 or X360 soon, so I love to play Outrun 2006 on that. But what if it failures? There is no service manual, not so many parts avaiable (new) and microsoft will drop support to it soon. What will I do if my xbox broke? There is NO new product to replace it, so I'll not have my toy anymore (of course, I'll buy another used, but this is another subject). So it is a GOOD appliance, the lifecycle is short (less than 5-6 years) but I WANT to make this lifecycle longer. It is made to last 5, maybe 10 years. But I'm sure 20 years from now I'll still use and keep it, as I do with my Atari 2600. Catch the point? The "useful life cycle" of a product depends of how much you need or you love it, so it is better to have a way to repair it yourself :o) Greetings from Brazil Alexandre Souza PS: Philips? So let me tell you a history: Since my childhood I wanted to have the Trendset 20" tv set with RGB input. This is the most beautiful TV Philips made, and I still wanted to have one! So I got TWO (20CT6555 and 20CT6558, one is silver and another black. The former without stereo decoding, the last with it. Chassis is CTO) and **restored both**. Now I have a GREAT tv set where I can connect my Neo Geo, my Amiga and other toys directly in the SCART socket. Very few TVs in Brazil came with the SCART socket, so this TV has a high collectable market value, and it is, as I said, one of the most beautiful TV sets I've ever seen. The complete service manual and common parts avaiability made it easy to repair. And we are talking about a 20+ years set. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 21 08:39:14 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 11:39:14 -0300 Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... References: <200612172043.52682.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4586018C.2010201@gmail.com> <4589D5D6.9020903@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <0f1601c7250d$f50c3910$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Since twinax is shielded twisted pair, is a BALUN necessary? For a while, > I used one twisted pair from about 50ft of ethernet CAT5 cable to connect > the S/34 in my garage to a terminal in the house. The connectors on each > end were two finish nails selected for the correct diameter. Worked fine > while I was play with it. Twinax was a two-core coaxial cable...But it was so hugely expensive (and hard to pass thru tubes) that almost all installations used BALUNs. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Dec 20 19:37:22 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:37:22 -0300 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance References: Message-ID: <0e0701c724a0$a9128900$f0fea8c0@alpha> > serive manual and parts backup. Alas I suspect I am the only person who > feels this way so I can't blame the manufacturers for not making one. Make that two... From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 21 08:46:04 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 11:46:04 -0300 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance References: <003b01c72498$cd011e60$7904010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <0f3701c7250e$fa94e3e0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > packs in after a few years. I'll admit that they may well go out and > buy a new one two-four years down the road, but if they keep it, it > has to keep on working. (I'll admit that this generally does not seem > to apply to mobile phones - no idea why not). The matter with cell phones is that there is always innovation. A TV set is a TV set, there are no news on that. Same to a stereo, what else would you want into a stereo? Maybe USB MP3 playing! but in the cell phone area there are always news. Every week you can see 3 or 4 new models on Engadget, one better than another. I have an "old" Nokia 6600, but I'm hoping I can get a N-series soon. Better camera, more memory, bigger screen, faster internet! From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Dec 21 08:18:37 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 08:18:37 -0600 Subject: ancient mac disk warrior ? In-Reply-To: <200612210617.kBL6Hv1n015104@floodgap.com> References: <200612210617.kBL6Hv1n015104@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <458A97BD.7080404@ubanproductions.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I dunno how hard they are to find, but the post-2.0.x versions of FWB >>> Hard Disk Toolkit support IDE. I have a Power Computing install CD >>> around here that has a bundled version 2.5, but it boots MacOS v8. Will >>> the PB 150 boot that? > >> I'm not certain if it would boot v8 or not. I'm guessing that it was >> running v6 or v7. > > The 150 is a '030 PowerBook, so it will not boot OS 8 natively (it needs > a hack like Born Again). It doesn't run System 6, so it must be running > some form of System 7 (it came with 7.1 IIRC). > > Amazingly, Disk Warrior *should* work on this unit -- it does have 68K code > and it does support IDE. Officially, it requires an '020 or better running > 7.1 or higher and the 150 should support all that. On my DiskWarrior 3.0.3 > CD there is a complimentary copy of DiskWarrior 2.1.1 for Classic. > > It's 1.3MB, though, so you're going to need to find an external drive to > boot from. This isn't going to fit on a Disk Tools floppy with the OS. > The 150 has an external SCSI port and I have an external CD drive which works with it, so an ISO image that I could burn a CD from should work ok, or at least let me see if there is anything to recover. It may be that there has been a hardware failure which has rendered the drive unrecoverable. --tnx --tom From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Dec 21 08:22:42 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 08:22:42 -0600 Subject: ancient mac disk warrior ? In-Reply-To: <458A35FF.9DBE98F3@cs.ubc.ca> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036654@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <4589BB2C.3020305@ubanproductions.com> <458A35FF.9DBE98F3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <458A98B2.8020905@ubanproductions.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Tom Uban wrote: >> I have a mac powerbook 150 circa 1994 which was an odd beast for apple >> at the time as it used an IDE drive to help reduce the cost. I have >> been using this machine to run MIDI recording software until recently >> when the hard drive has had some sort of failure, either software or >> hardware, I'm not sure which yet. The result is that when the machine >> attempts to boot, it does not recognize the formatting on the disk. I >> would like to try to recover the data (if possible) before re-formatting >> the drive, and I've heard that a program call disk warrior might be >> the solution. Does anyone have any comments or suggestions on this? > > .. don't know if this is any help or if you are already beyond this stage: > > There is a program from Apple: "Disk First Aid" that comes with the system > install disks (CD or floppies) for the Classic systems. If you have the > install disks you should be able to boot from them, run Disk First Aid and it > may be able to fix the hard disk. > > Disk First Aid is not comprehensive though: for trashed-disk problems that I > have had, sometimes it has been able to recover the disk and sometimes it > hasn't. When it hasn't, other programs have sometimes been able to do the > recovery. The 'other programs' that I have are on another machine, I could > fire it up to recall which was 'best' in my experience. > > Do you know that the problem is trashed formatting (file structure), as > opposed to trashed system files, that are causing the boot to fail? > > If it is the latter you may be able to, again, boot from the install media, > and reinstall just the system files without having to reformat the disk > (and not disturb your data files). > > Or if you can you can find an opportunity to install the disk as a secondary > (non-boot) disk on another Mac, you may be able to access your data files > immediately, copy them off, then reinstall the system, or reformat. > > I don't know what has gone wrong yet and all of the advice from you mac experts is quite useful. I used the mac as a tool and never bothered to learn about the intricacies of the OS, etc. as I am primarily a Unix person. --tom From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 21 09:00:58 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 08:00:58 -0700 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 Dec 2006 11:46:04 -0300. <0f3701c7250e$fa94e3e0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: In article <0f3701c7250e$fa94e3e0$f0fea8c0 at alpha>, "Alexandre Souza" writes: > The matter with cell phones is that there is always innovation. A TV set > is a TV set, there are no news on that. ...at least if you think like a TV manufacturer. If you think like a computer manufacturer and see video as just another data stream, then there's tons going on in TV electronics. > Same to a stereo, what else would > you want into a stereo? Recording radio programs from a schedule into an internal hard disk for later playback? > Maybe USB MP3 playing! Now you're starting to get it. The ossified portion of the electronics industry, particularly consumer media electronics, is exactly that way because they have not embranced the digital revolution. They are still thinking of TV "features" in terms of analog circuitry. Some of them are getting it now, but only some of them. When they build digital electronics, its still being built the way TV sets were built: closed, fixed systems with no upgradable parts and no interfaces beyond existing analog interfaces. This is why its cheaper to build a media PC and have it act as a DVR than it is to buy a "consumer electronics" DVR that talks to your existing PCs. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Dec 21 09:10:10 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:10:10 -0500 Subject: early IC ident: Sperry 1M4 In-Reply-To: <458A561D.49F704B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <458886CB.AA792975@cs.ubc.ca> <458A561D.49F704B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Were the Univac "IC like things" recognisable as not being ICs (thick film > modules or such) or were they in some standard IC package? Yes, DIPs. The diodes look like 1N914oids. -- Will From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Dec 21 09:36:25 2006 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 10:36:25 -0500 Subject: RTL - was Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03665E@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03665E@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <20061221103625.35f2de14@bluto.i16.net> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:51:35 -0800 "Billy Pettit" wrote: > > James B. DiGriz wrote: > > I believe the prolific Mr. Lancaster wrote an RTL Cookbook. > > > > Unfortunately I don't have a copy. > > jbdigriz > > -------------------------- > > I think I have a copy of that book at home in Pleasanton. I'll be > flying up Saturday morning and will have a look in the book case. If > so, I should be able to get some scans of the pertinent sections for > you. Do you live in the Bay area? I know copies of it have shown up > on eBay in last 18 months, usually going for less than $10. > > Billy I'll probably get one from Ebay or Amazon. Wouldn't want to spoil our chances of ever going on a tinaja quest, whatever that is, now would we? Of course, for even more good karma, one might purchase through links on Don's site. BTW, nope, I'm on the other coast. Thanks, though. jbdigriz From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Dec 21 10:16:10 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 08:16:10 -0800 Subject: ancient mac disk warrior ? In-Reply-To: <458A40F8.5030700@socal.rr.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036654@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <4589BB2C.3020305@ubanproductions.com> <4589D349.7010704@mdrconsult.com> <458A40F8.5030700@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: At 12:08 AM -0800 12/21/06, Mike Ford wrote: >I didn't use Disc Warrior, but I had FWB toolkit and Norton. Good >luck, wow I am amazed at how little I remember. Join the club, I'd totally forgotten about FWB Toolkit, and I had to buy a copy for my PowerMac 8500/180. Norton is a pain as the different versions are pretty much tied to the OS versions. DiskWarrior V2 & V3 proved to be pretty much a requirement to keep an iBook running for someone for ~6 years (Mac OS 9). They've also helped with keeping my G4/450 and G5 2x2 running Mac OS X. I quite honestly don't remember what I was using on the G4 prior to Mac OS X. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu Thu Dec 21 12:08:55 2006 From: kahrs at caip.rutgers.edu (Mark KAHRS) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:08:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: AP 120B Message-ID: Now on epay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320063237143&fromMakeTrack=true Looks very cool, but heavy. I have the manuals for this thing somewhere I think. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Dec 21 12:17:12 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:17:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: AP 120B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Dec 2006, Mark KAHRS wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320063237143&fromMakeTrack=true That backplane practically defines the term "rats nest"... Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Dec 21 13:11:51 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:11:51 -0600 Subject: WPS Files into Modern Wordprocessor Message-ID: <6f7bab6039fd4336a5ddbb813a139f4f@valleyimplants.com> Wasn't there something for DECwrite that would open these? Can't recall if it shipped as standard or not, and I'm still in the process of moving my VMS from my Multia to a 3000/300X so DECwrite isn't up yet. Perhaps someone else could check. DECwrite is included in the VMS Hobbyist layered product PAK From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Dec 21 13:26:45 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 11:26:45 -0800 Subject: Bell 103 Datasets Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03666D@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Jules Richardson wrote: Tony Duell wrote: > I can't help with dates, but I do have a few old ex-GPO modems in the > collection. > > The Modem 2B is a large box (about 16" square and 7" high from memory. > It's 300 baud, original and answer. The front panel opens by undoing 2 > captice screws at the bottom and then hinging it up (there's a little > 'stay' to keep it open). Insider are 4 plug-in modules -- PSU, > Demodulator, Control, Modulator, with testpoints, fuses, and adjustments > on the front panels. Hmm yes, we have one of those at the museum; it's a wonderful bit of construction! I've been unable to work out if the 2B was the UK's first foray into modems or not though - was there ever an official 2A, or maybe a 1B or 1A that were even earlier? (I'm off over to the museum tomorrow, but I don't think any of the ex-GPO lot will be in to ask) There are some really good UK telecomms websites out there, but unfortunately whilst they cover phones and exchanges and test equipment, none of them seem to provide any details on the GPO modems... cheers Jules ------------------------------- I asked a friend who is a historian on British telegraphy if he had any data or dates. Here is his reply: Billy Pettit wrote: > > > Bill the question is: what are the first UK modems and when did they > come out? Can you help establish a time line? Billy: Nothing in any of my reference books. Might be worth an inquiry to the BT Archives: http://www.btplc.com/Thegroup/BTsHistory/BTgrouparchives/index.htm Bill Billy From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 21 13:31:17 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:31:17 -0600 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <0f3701c7250e$fa94e3e0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <003b01c72498$cd011e60$7904010a@uatempname> <0f3701c7250e$fa94e3e0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <458AE105.1040308@yahoo.co.uk> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> packs in after a few years. I'll admit that they may well go out and >> buy a new one two-four years down the road, but if they keep it, it >> has to keep on working. (I'll admit that this generally does not seem >> to apply to mobile phones - no idea why not). > > The matter with cell phones is that there is always innovation. A TV > set is a TV set, there are no news on that. Same to a stereo, what else > would you want into a stereo? See, I'm somewhat atypical there... I want a phone that's good at making phone calls. I don't want it to do a million other things, most of which I won't need *ever*, let alone occasionally. I'd rather that all the time and money that had gone into developing that phone had been spent on making it as easy to use and as robust as possible - not in adding complexity via additional features which just get in the way. I'm the same with TVs - I just want to watch TV on them, not surf the 'net or any other crap for which there are far better existing tools out there already. Now if manufacturers want to make their products *optionally* do extra things beyond the prime function, then I'm all for it - let the consumers pick and choose what suits them best as individuals (and pay a price accordingly). But don't compromise the base product just in order to pile on as many bells and whistles as possible! I know I'm far from alone in that view, but unfortunately a) it's still a minority view, and b) it's not in a manufacturer's best interest to build a product that is so good that it never needs to be replaced... > phone area there are always news. Every week you can see 3 or 4 new > models on Engadget, one better than another. I have an "old" Nokia 6600, > but I'm hoping I can get a N-series soon. Better camera, more memory, > bigger screen, faster internet! My life isn't so chaotic that I need 'net access on tap at every waking moment of the day :-) I've got a good camera; why would I need a bad one on a phone? Bigger screen? All it needs to do is display a few numbers... heck, it doesn't even need to be in colour. etc. etc. :-) From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Dec 21 13:40:24 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 11:40:24 -0800 Subject: TTL Calculator Project Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03666E@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Several months back, we talked about a calculator built from TTL. It came from a 1970's article in Practical Electronics, an English Magazine. I had 7 requests for copies, which I mailed directly to the requestors. Apparently they disappeared into a black hole, because I didn't receive a single acknowledgement, let alone a thank you. So for those still interested, Al Kossow scanned my copy and posted it on bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/practicalElectronics/digi-cal/Digi-Cal_Jul72-Ma y73.pdf Billy From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Dec 21 13:40:54 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 14:40:54 -0500 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <458AE105.1040308@yahoo.co.uk> References: <003b01c72498$cd011e60$7904010a@uatempname> <0f3701c7250e$fa94e3e0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <458AE105.1040308@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: > I've got a good camera; why would I need a bad one on a phone? Because they are handy. Really handy. When going thru a junkyard, warehouse, swapfest, or whatever, they make an excellent extension to ones visual memory. Don't expect high art - expect a visual notepad. -- Will From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Dec 21 13:44:32 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 11:44:32 -0800 Subject: Humor - Kludge Komputer Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03666F@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> I also gave Al several humorous articles from the early 1960's. Originally they ran in Datamation. If you've never read about the Kludge Komputer Kompany, you might enjoy a laugh. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datamation/ From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 21 13:46:36 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 14:46:36 -0500 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <458AE105.1040308@yahoo.co.uk> References: <003b01c72498$cd011e60$7904010a@uatempname> <0f3701c7250e$fa94e3e0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <458AE105.1040308@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <458AE49C.5080507@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > My life isn't so chaotic that I need 'net access on tap at every waking > moment of the day :-) > > I've got a good camera; why would I need a bad one on a phone? > > Bigger screen? All it needs to do is display a few numbers... heck, it > doesn't even need to be in colour. > > etc. etc. > > :-) You luddite. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Dec 21 13:53:55 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 11:53:55 -0800 Subject: 5.25 Floppy Application Notes Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036670@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> For those of you who are working with old 5.25 floppies and trying to build your own data recovery circuits, I loaned Al two old MPI Application notes. He has posted them: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/77653447_5inchPrecomp_Aug83.pdf and http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/75897469_5inchFDD_Fmt_Jan80.pdf There's a lot of information here that might be useful in understanding some of the early formats and data recovery techniques. The first one also includes circuits and wave shapes using the WD1691, WD 179X and NEC 765.) Billy From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 21 13:55:08 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:55:08 -0700 Subject: AP 120B In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:08:55 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Mark KAHRS writes: > > Now on epay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320063237143&fromMakeTrack =true > > Looks very cool, but heavy. > > I have the manuals for this thing somewhere I think. To what would this have been attached? A PDP-11? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dbwood at kc.rr.com Thu Dec 21 13:55:45 2006 From: dbwood at kc.rr.com (dbwood at kc.rr.com) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:55:45 -0600 Subject: TTL Calculator Project In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03666E@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03666E@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: I am one of those seven recipients. I apologize for the lack of a response. I do greatly appreciate your taking the time and effort to send it to me. I did, also, in a sense fall into a black hole. My computer crashed shortly after received the package and I lost a great of email and contact information (of which your email address was one). I have been busily entering it into Protel 99 (although I'm not as far along with that project as I'd like). So, thank you for the article and your time. It IS greatly apreciated!!! Douglas Wood ----- Original Message ----- From: Billy Pettit Date: Thursday, December 21, 2006 1:47 pm Subject: TTL Calculator Project To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Several months back, we talked about a calculator built from TTL. > It came > from a 1970's article in Practical Electronics, an English Magazine. > > I had 7 requests for copies, which I mailed directly to the > requestors.Apparently they disappeared into a black hole, because > I didn't receive a > single acknowledgement, let alone a thank you. > > So for those still interested, Al Kossow scanned my copy and > posted it on > bitsavers: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/practicalElectronics/digi-cal/Digi- > Cal_Jul72-Ma > y73.pdf > > Billy > From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Dec 21 14:24:09 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:24:09 -0800 Subject: Floppy Manuals Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036671@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Finally, some manuals for 5.25 and 8 inch MPI drives. These are useful because these models were OEM'd to literally hundreds of companies. Some had a different connector, used hard sectoring, etc. There were dozens of different colours. And many used their own labels so you didn't know who actually made the drive. But for all the hundreds of configurations, the mechanics were the same (except for pulley changes to 50 cycle, and capacitor change to 220V AC). If you are playing around with old floppies, you might find these manuals useful. There is an amazing amount of common mechanics and circuitry. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/77715900_9428_HwMaint_Sep85.pdf and http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/75897465_9404B_floppyMaint.pdf One of the things I did then was create and track all the different configurations. I know that at one time, I had more than 60 colour schemes on the 8 inch floppy. We tried to avoid doing a separate manual for each config. Instead the basic manual was sent along with an Errata sheet for unique features. These multiple configurations are what eventually killed the maintenance manuals. The documentation department was getting bigger than the engineering group! It wasn't possible to OEM hundreds of configurations and document each with a separate manual. A poll of the customers showed that most only needed interface data for design. So schematics and parts lists and wire lists all went the way of the dinosaurs. Designers were sent engineering drawings on request. Lest you think this is an exaggeration, my notes show that we had more than 2500 separate configurations of the Hawk, a 14 inch cartridge drive (10 MB). I also see that there were more than 500 configurations of the CMD, another 14 inch cartridge drive (96 MB). There was even a room that had the different configurations charted on the walls - all 4 walls. I understand the feeling of those on this list about maintenance manuals. But they didn't have to live with this nightmare. All the mini companies and the early PC companies wanted to differentiate their products. Compatibility was anathema. If customers could read their disk on another system, they might buy it instead of yours. Using different formats, sectoring, interface connectors were all part of protecting market share. But companies trying to fulfill all these unique requirements were drowning in the details. Support finally became impossible - so a generic approach was taken. Then further simplification was done until only a fluff manual was done. Billy From o2bfrank21 at netzero.net Thu Dec 21 10:16:59 2006 From: o2bfrank21 at netzero.net (o2bfrank21 at netzero.net) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 16:16:59 GMT Subject: Friden Flexowriter Message-ID: <20061221.081750.808.880491@webmail07.lax.untd.com> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From ksr at krother.com Thu Dec 21 14:32:35 2006 From: ksr at krother.com (Ken Rother) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:32:35 -0500 Subject: TTL Calculator Project References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03666E@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <33a901c7253f$2741f5b0$0401a8c0@KSRPC> I am not sure if I will ever get to build the calculator but I am certainly going to read the article. Maybe a good project to develop some FPGA skills on, hmmm... Thanks for taking to time to scan and post Ken ----- Original Message ----- From: "Billy Pettit" To: Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 2:40 PM Subject: TTL Calculator Project Several months back, we talked about a calculator built from TTL. It came from a 1970's article in Practical Electronics, an English Magazine. I had 7 requests for copies, which I mailed directly to the requestors. Apparently they disappeared into a black hole, because I didn't receive a single acknowledgement, let alone a thank you. So for those still interested, Al Kossow scanned my copy and posted it on bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/practicalElectronics/digi-cal/Digi-Cal_Jul72-Ma y73.pdf Billy From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 21 14:36:52 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:36:52 -0500 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <0f0301c7250d$b72e0ec0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036665@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> <0f0301c7250d$b72e0ec0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <1B01023D-1F4C-448B-B4B3-34CFA641435E@neurotica.com> On Dec 21, 2006, at 9:37 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> We are never going to agree on what constitutes a good product - >> you want a >> maintenance manual and lots of spares; I want no failures and no >> hassles >> during a useful life cycle. > > Billy, I think this is the point: Useful life cycle. > > A VAX isn't useful today. This is a toy. Well, there are dozens of them running in the Pentagon right now. Better be careful throwing around statements like that. I'm not even sure it'd be safe to say that about something like a PDP-8, as there are a good number of those still in production too...a friend of mine up in New Jersey (former DEC field circus, runs his own company now) maintains a few of them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Dec 21 14:40:53 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:40:53 +0100 (CET) Subject: Pro Toolit docu Message-ID: <4180.88.211.153.27.1166733653.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Anybody interested in a Pro/Toolit V3.0 documentation set? Without the binders, but with the spine inserts and side inserts. Only postage to be paid and docs are in the Netherlands (about 15Kg) Ed From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 21 14:41:45 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:41:45 -0500 Subject: AP 120B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52341106-9B97-4F4F-92B9-294EB831A614@neurotica.com> On Dec 21, 2006, at 1:08 PM, Mark KAHRS wrote: > Now on epay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? > ViewItem&item=320063237143&fromMakeTrack=true > > Looks very cool, but heavy. > > I have the manuals for this thing somewhere I think. Oh My. :-) I'm going to try to score that. It's been on my wish list for many years. I have a close relative, an AP-180V, in storage, complete with tons of docs, but sadly no VAX interface card. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 21 14:46:27 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:46:27 -0500 Subject: AP 120B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 21, 2006, at 2:55 PM, Richard wrote: >> Now on epay: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? >> ViewItem&item=320063237143&fromMakeTrack > =true >> >> Looks very cool, but heavy. >> >> I have the manuals for this thing somewhere I think. > > To what would this have been attached? A PDP-11? It was once sold as a package with a PDP-11/34, at least. I believe it was sold for many other systems as well, with a system- specific interface card. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From ksr at krother.com Thu Dec 21 14:57:05 2006 From: ksr at krother.com (Ken Rother) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:57:05 -0500 Subject: Searching cctalk Archive Message-ID: <3d7201c72542$93bc2a00$0401a8c0@KSRPC> Is anyone else having trouble searching the CCTALK archive. I always get an empty search result. Thanks From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Dec 21 15:01:07 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:01:07 -0600 Subject: AP 120B References: Message-ID: <00e401c72543$23c13690$6500a8c0@BILLING> kahrs wrote... >> Now on epay: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320063237143&fromMakeTrack=true >> >> Looks very cool, but heavy. >> >> I have the manuals for this thing somewhere I think. To which richard replied... > To what would this have been attached? A PDP-11? I have one of these. It's attached to a Data General Eclipse S/200. I have no desire for the FPS unit. While mine is attached to the data general, FPS made their FPU's able to connect to many different systems, not just DG. I believe I may have extensive docs on this unit. If not, they are still in transit to me from the prior owner. This thing is fairly heavy. It obviously sucks serious amps too. The power cable for it is as big around as my wrist and very non-110-ish (it looks like some mainframe plugs I've seen). I opened the side cover and each card has similar (if not the same) numbers as the unit on ebay. One thing that strikes me about the unit is the density of circuitry. There appears to be very little circulation space between the cards or around them. The entire box is stuffed with ttl from corner to corner with little open space anywhere. Not sure how they kept it from burning up. Perhaps related, perhaps not... my college had a 3rd party floating point processor attached to the IBM 4341. It was a large floor standing blue & white unit. I am fairly sure it said "Floating Point Systems" on it too. Jay West From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Dec 21 15:19:57 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:19:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <458AE105.1040308@yahoo.co.uk> References: <003b01c72498$cd011e60$7904010a@uatempname> <0f3701c7250e$fa94e3e0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <458AE105.1040308@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061221131906.S76332@shell.lmi.net> > See, I'm somewhat atypical there... I want a phone that's good at making phone > calls. I don't want it to do a million other things, most of which I won't > need *ever*, let alone occasionally. I'd rather that all the time and money > that had gone into developing that phone had been spent on making it as easy > to use and as robust as possible - not in adding complexity via additional > features which just get in the way. "I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to use my telephone" I said that after a frustrating attempt to use a "feature-rich" telephone sometime around 1990. I'm sure the sentiment wasn't original, and probably not even the overall phrasing; someone must have thought of that before me. - Bjarne Strousstrup From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 21 15:28:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:28:58 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <458AE105.1040308@yahoo.co.uk> References: <003b01c72498$cd011e60$7904010a@uatempname>, <0f3701c7250e$fa94e3e0$f0fea8c0@alpha>, <458AE105.1040308@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <458A8C1A.150.217859B7@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Dec 2006 at 13:31, Jules Richardson wrote: > See, I'm somewhat atypical there... I want a phone that's good at making phone > calls. I don't want it to do a million other things, most of which I won't > need *ever*, let alone occasionally. I'd rather that all the time and money > that had gone into developing that phone had been spent on making it as easy > to use and as robust as possible - not in adding complexity via additional > features which just get in the way. I'd gladly settle for a mobile phone with a screen I could read and buttons that I could see without digging for my "up close glasses". More than once, someone has shoved a mobile with a glowing rectangular blob on it in my face, saying "Look at this!" Sigh--oh, the joys of age and presbyopia. :( On the other hand, I still haven't figured out all of the menus and controls on my home audio receiver. One of these days, I'll have to sit down and read through the whole manual. It's easier to hook up than to operate. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 21 13:12:43 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:12:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Bell 103 Datasets In-Reply-To: <4589D38C.4010208@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 20, 6 06:21:32 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I can't help with dates, but I do have a few old ex-GPO modems in the > > collection. > > > > The Modem 2B is a large box (about 16" square and 7" high from memory. > > It's 300 baud, original and answer. The front panel opens by undoing 2 > > captice screws at the bottom and then hinging it up (there's a little > > 'stay' to keep it open). Insider are 4 plug-in modules -- PSU, > > Demodulator, Control, Modulator, with testpoints, fuses, and adjustments > > on the front panels. > > Hmm yes, we have one of those at the museum; it's a wonderful bit of > construction! I've been unable to work out if the 2B was the UK's first foray A word of warning. Screw down the front panel before moving the thing. If you don't, and you tilt it the right (wrong?) way, the PSU module will push the panel open and fall out, If it hits you on the foot it's painful. If it doesn't, it can land in such a way that the frame bends and cracks the SRBP PCB. Please don't ask how I found that out! > into modems or not though - was there ever an official 2A, or maybe a 1B or 1A > that were even earlier? (I'm off over to the museum tomorrow, but I don't > think any of the ex-GPO lot will be in to ask) > > There are some really good UK telecomms websites out there, but unfortunately > whilst they cover phones and exchanges and test equipment, none of them seem > to provide any details on the GPO modems... I was a member of the THG for a short time, but I gave up when it was obvious that I was the only person interested in datacomms. One thing I forgot to mention last night was the 'barrier'. This was a box that connected between the terminal's RS232 port and that on the modem. It contained a pair of invese-series zener diodes between each of the 24 pins (2 ... 25) and frame ground (pin 1) and a low-value fuse (50mA) in series with each line (the zeners being on the modem side of the fuses). The idea was to protect the modem against any electrical breakdown in the terminal, and AFAIK was a GPO requiremnt if you rented a modem. For some odd reason you're also supposed to use one in the UK if you link ccertain periperhals, including the Versatec V80, to a PERQ. Yes, I have some oddly wired cables with GPIB connectors at one end and DB25s at the other to put one of these barries in that GPIB link. That barrier is a fairly small metal box, I also have a much larger one (called a 'Model 7 Modem Selector'), built in a sloping-panel box about 12" * 9" * 9".. Inside it's mostly air, there's a little PCB with the fues and zneers on it. and 3 (IIRC) swithcs on the panel to toggle varios status llines on the DB25 to select original or answer mode. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 21 13:26:52 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:26:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036665@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> from "Billy Pettit" at Dec 20, 6 05:59:31 pm Message-ID: > I value my time too much to waste it on repairing minor appliances. You = > get > great pleasure from that activity. > > We are never going to agree on what constitutes a good product - you = > want a > maintenance manual and lots of spares; I want no failures and no hassles > during a useful life cycle. I think that is the main diffeence. I am happy to accept minor failures from time to time (that I can repair) if it means the product can be kept going for as long as I want to use it. > > I think we agree on a love of old computers and the need to keep a few > alive. And we may share pleasure in designing and building little = > systems. > But I wonder if you enjoy playing with PICs and FPGAs like I do, since > little documention on the innards is available. =20 Well, PICs seem to be pretty well docuemted, and I quite like thoes, ditto other microcontrollers. But I used FPGAs in a previous job (Xilinx 3000 series, which were current at the time), and hated evey minute of it. Not really becuase of lack of docuemtnation (although that meant I couldn't cure some of the problems I faced), but becasue the software was kludgy, slow (on what was then a fast PC), produced unhelpful reports about what it had done to my design, thogut it could design better than I could, had a simulator that failed to find glitches where they did occur and fond them where they couldn't possibly occur (like on the output of D-types well away from clock edges), and so on... > > And I know we disagree strongly on use of the internet, saving old = > manuals > and sending photos, scans, software etc. That requires technology you = > are > not willing to embrace. Do we>? About the only thin I dislike is archiving stuff in a proprietry format. Not because I can't (easliy) make use of it, but because the whole point of archiving is to preserve stuff for the future, and you can't be sure the machine to run tht proprietry program will exist, even as an emulator. But I certainly regard sites like bitsavers and hpmuseum.net as a terrific resource. Yes, it's inconvnient for me to make use of them, but that's my fault, not the site's. I don't own a scanner, so I can't contribute as much as I'd like, but if you look at the latter site you'll see several files of the form 'FooScheamticsByTonyDuell'. No, I didn't scan them, but I sure did draw them out, and I did give permisison for them to be distributed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 21 15:24:56 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:24:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <0f0301c7250d$b72e0ec0$f0fea8c0@alpha> from "Alexandre Souza" at Dec 21, 6 11:37:38 am Message-ID: > A VAX isn't useful today. This is a toy. I'll not even think about using Well, there are plenty that would disagree with you there!. Firstly, being 'a toy' is useful. It gives the owner pleasure. And there's nothing wrong with that. And secondly, if you have some application (hardware or software) that runs on a particular machine, then it may well take significant time and/or money to move it to a more modern machine even if that modern machine rnss faster. It may well be worth keeping the old machine running as long as possible. There's a lot more to computing than processor speed! An example : I've recently been working on some HP9000/200 series machines. I don't dispute that a modern PC will run a lot faster than the 8MHz 68000 in the HP. But the HP has a truely wonderful range of I/O cards available (I wish I had more of them), it has IEEE-488 as standard, and runs a powerful BASIC that can use all these I/O facilities. If I'd got some kind of automated test set-up ssing one of those machines, it would coast a lot of time and money to move it to a PC, even if similar I/O cards were available. It would almost certainly be cheaper to keep the the HP running. > a 11/750 to run a payroll or calculating some numbers. There are better, > faster, cheaper options today. But we can talk about my loved HP4Plus. This > printer serves me perfectly. There is no feature I need that this printer That is exactly how I feel about my old computers. They do all that I want. I don't need graphics, or a faster processor, or... Why should I upgrade? > PS: Philips? So let me tell you a history: Since my childhood I wanted > to have the Trendset 20" tv set with RGB input. This is the most beautiful > TV Philips made, and I still wanted to have one! So I got TWO (20CT6555 and I'd still love to find one of the Philips G11-chassis sets from the mid 1970s with the Prestel unit underneath. Yes, an 'internet TV' long before there was an internet :-). No idea where I'd put it, though.. It's also amazing how many people don't realise that Philips made computers. Or eduactional kits (electronics and mechanics). -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 21 16:33:34 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:33:34 -0300 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance References: <003b01c72498$cd011e60$7904010a@uatempname><0f3701c7250e$fa94e3e0$f0fea8c0@alpha><458AE105.1040308@yahoo.co.uk> <20061221131906.S76332@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <11d901c72550$32135e50$f0fea8c0@alpha> > "I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my > telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to > use my telephone" I said that after a frustrating attempt to use a > "feature-rich" telephone sometime around 1990. I'm sure the sentiment > wasn't original, and probably not even the overall phrasing; someone must > have thought of that before me. My (insert preffered expletive here)! All the phones works the same. The features are added, you can choose not to use them. And there are simple phones (with 4 buttons: police, fire, medical and home) for cheap, anyone can order these. My phone is a kind of PDA. I keep my contacts on it, some photos, music and games, and I feel like it. From jtp at chinalake.com Thu Dec 21 15:38:04 2006 From: jtp at chinalake.com (JTP) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 16:38:04 -0500 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance (lead-free) In-Reply-To: <200612211800.kBLI0Fcf090616@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000601c72548$4c164770$db64c80a@prozac> Mil-Spec in the US is exempt from lead-free. Bonding, whiskers (growing shorts) and the like are know quantities in leaded; and lead-free formulations are still evolving--and improving. A long term concern is what happens to the leaded parts supply. Some of the manufacturers I've spoken with say they will continue to produce lead parts for mil, areo and medical, but will watch the market. No comment on what this will potentially do to leaded parts prices. I have a small stock pile of leaded parts for one application I support, mostly for price stability, and hopefully I will find an appropriate electrical and mechanical bond system by the time I run out. A nice side effect of RoHS, is that many companies are discounting their lead parts. We picked up a nice stock of MicroChip [direct] parts from .18-.40 cents on the dollar for example. Chers,-jp From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 21 15:40:22 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:40:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: TTL Calculator Project & CDC 5601 processor core? In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03666E@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <498313.2464.qm@web82703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I was one of those who received a copy of the article from you and was negligent in responding, I'm sorry. It was greatly appreciated and I do plan on building one sometime. Also, I believe you were interested in dumping the core from the CDC 5601 processors I picked up a few month ago. If so, contact me and we can arrange something. Bob Billy Pettit wrote: Several months back, we talked about a calculator built from TTL. It came from a 1970's article in Practical Electronics, an English Magazine. I had 7 requests for copies, which I mailed directly to the requestors. Apparently they disappeared into a black hole, because I didn't receive a single acknowledgement, let alone a thank you. So for those still interested, Al Kossow scanned my copy and posted it on bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/practicalElectronics/digi-cal/Digi-Cal_Jul72-Ma y73.pdf Billy From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 21 16:43:05 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:43:05 -0300 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance References: Message-ID: <11f801c72551$75f3d040$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> A VAX isn't useful today. This is a toy. I'll not even think about >> using > Well, there are plenty that would disagree with you there!. > Firstly, being 'a toy' is useful. It gives the owner pleasure. And > there's nothing wrong with that. > And secondly, if you have some application (hardware or software) that > runs on a particular machine, then it may well take significant time > and/or money to move it to a more modern machine even if that modern > machine rnss faster. It may well be worth keeping the old machine running > as long as possible. There's a lot more to computing than processor speed! Tony, you are a smart man and I'm sure you understood me. Of course that if it is still working for a determined solution, it should be kept working. I just generalized and I apologize for that. > An example : I've recently been working on some HP9000/200 series > machines. I don't dispute that a modern PC will run a lot faster than the > 8MHz 68000 in the HP. But the HP has a truely wonderful range of I/O > cards available (I wish I had more of them), it has IEEE-488 as standard, > and runs a powerful BASIC that can use all these I/O facilities. If I'd > got some kind of automated test set-up ssing one of those machines, it > would coast a lot of time and money to move it to a PC, even if similar > I/O cards were available. It would almost certainly be cheaper to keep > the the HP running. But surely you wouldn't buy one to create a datalogging system. > It's also amazing how many people don't realise that Philips made > computers. Or eduactional kits (electronics and mechanics). I have some here, a VG8235 (MSX 2.0) and a Odyssey? (known in Brazil just as "odyssey")...very good machines these philips :D From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 21 15:51:14 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:51:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Friden Flexowriter In-Reply-To: <20061221.081750.808.880491@webmail07.lax.untd.com> from "o2bfrank21@netzero.net" at Dec 21, 6 04:16:59 pm Message-ID: > > Tony, > I was a repairman for the Friden/Singer Company for twenty years or more= > . I was also a programmer for a computer using the Flexowriter for an i= > nput/output device as part of that experience. > Let me ask you a few questions, assuming you still have the machine. Do= Yes, I do have it. > you want to sell it? If so, how much? But at the moment I have no intention of selling it. > I am interested in purchasing a Flexowriter. Yours must have been made = > for a specific purpose as there were no model numbers such as those show= > n in your ad in the United States. Does your machine have input and out= I don't ever rememebr mentioning model numbers, if I did I certainly can't rememebr them > put cable hubs on the right hand side? If so, are the dummy plugs in th= There is one I/O connector on the back of the machine, a round multi-pin thing. There's currently a jumper plug in it which links various pins together, I assume to link the reader and punch to the rest of the machine. > ese I/O hubs? Plugs which are installed when the cables are removed. I= > s the machine gray or tan? Do you still have ribbon spools? It's grey. And yesm I do have the ribbon spools with the ratchet teeth round them -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 21 15:49:26 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:49:26 -0600 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <458AE49C.5080507@gmail.com> References: <003b01c72498$cd011e60$7904010a@uatempname> <0f3701c7250e$fa94e3e0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <458AE105.1040308@yahoo.co.uk> <458AE49C.5080507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <458B0166.9060203@yahoo.co.uk> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> etc. etc. >> >> :-) > > You luddite. 8-) I *know* :-) Seriously though, I'm all for doing things better or quicker or easier, and I've got no problem with using technology to do that. What bugs me is when a product adds on extras that I don't need, and what *really* bugs me is when those extras hinder the product's ability to do the thing that I *do* need :-) Ahh, that feels better. ;) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 21 15:54:37 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:54:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <458AE105.1040308@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 21, 6 01:31:17 pm Message-ID: > > Alexandre Souza wrote: > >> packs in after a few years. I'll admit that they may well go out and > >> buy a new one two-four years down the road, but if they keep it, it > >> has to keep on working. (I'll admit that this generally does not seem > >> to apply to mobile phones - no idea why not). > > > > The matter with cell phones is that there is always innovation. A TV > > set is a TV set, there are no news on that. Same to a stereo, what else > > would you want into a stereo? > > See, I'm somewhat atypical there... I want a phone that's good at making phone You are not alone there. I use a cellphone for making voice calls only. OK, I may have sent the odd SMS message, but I don't _need_ that facility. I certainly don't need a colour display, or internet access, or a camera (all that I have seen make an instamatic's pictures look good!), and so on. > calls. I don't want it to do a million other things, most of which I won't > need *ever*, let alone occasionally. I'd rather that all the time and money > that had gone into developing that phone had been spent on making it as easy The phrase 'Jakc of all trades and master of none' springs to mind. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 21 15:56:40 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:56:40 -0600 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: References: <003b01c72498$cd011e60$7904010a@uatempname> <0f3701c7250e$fa94e3e0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <458AE105.1040308@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <458B0318.6090406@yahoo.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: >> I've got a good camera; why would I need a bad one on a phone? > > Because they are handy. Really handy. When going thru a junkyard, > warehouse, swapfest, or whatever, they make an excellent extension to > ones visual memory. Don't expect high art - expect a visual notepad. But my camera fits in my jacket pocket just as well as a phone does - for any of those situations I'd have it with me [1] so that I could take good-quality photos of things to aid memory. For any situation where I can reasonably expect to want to take photos, I'll have a camera with me anyway - I just don't need an inferior-quality version on another gadget. [1] I deliberately bought a metal-bodied camera which felt solidy built, expecting it might suffer a few knocks once in a while (yes, it has been to the odd junkyard :) Most of the plastic creations out there look like they'd fall apart if you so much as sneezed near them... cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 21 16:01:18 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 22:01:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TTL Calculator Project In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D03666E@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> from "Billy Pettit" at Dec 21, 6 11:40:24 am Message-ID: > > Several months back, we talked about a calculator built from TTL. It = > came > from a 1970's article in Practical Electronics, an English Magazine. I have originals of that.... It's interesting to compare that design with the HP9810 (either from the patent or from the schematics on hpmuseum.net). They're approximately contemporary (I think the 9810 came out in late 1971), they're both built from TTL (although the HP also has some PMOS DRAMs and MOS ROMs). The bigest difference is the architacutre. The Digi-Cal is a calculator in hardware. There's a multiplication counter. A BCD full-adder. And so on. The HP is really a computer. There's a general-purpose 16 bit processor in there (shich. OK, has a few BCD-related isntructions). Connected to it is RAM and DRO, the latter contains the programs to make it work as a calculator. And peripherals like the keyboard, display, and printer. That the HP is a general-purpose design is shown by the fact that the HP9810 (3-level stack RPN calculator), 9820 (algebraic-notation calculator) and 9830 (BASIC-programamble computer) are all essentially the same design and use the same processor boards. > > I had 7 requests for copies, which I mailed directly to the requestors. > Apparently they disappeared into a black hole, because I didn't receive = > a > single acknowledgement, let alone a thank you. That, alas, is typical. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 21 16:10:21 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 22:10:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <11f801c72551$75f3d040$f0fea8c0@alpha> from "Alexandre Souza" at Dec 21, 6 07:43:05 pm Message-ID: [HP9000/200 machines] > But surely you wouldn't buy one to create a datalogging system. Actually, I just did... Having bought one 'for interest' and seen how well made it is (well, it's HP from the good days of HP :-)). the availalbe I/O, the repairability (all standard chips, a few PALs and ROMs, but nothing large and custom) and the easy-to-use BASIC and Pascal, I did, indeed, buy another one of a different model on E-bay (they don't go for ridiculous prices, fortuanetly), to use as a data logger/control machine. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Dec 21 16:11:26 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 14:11:26 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance References: <003b01c72498$cd011e60$7904010a@uatempname> <0f3701c7250e$fa94e3e0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <458AE105.1040308@yahoo.co.uk> <20061221131906.S76332@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <458B068F.2958A90B@cs.ubc.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > > "I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my > telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how to > use my telephone" I said that after a frustrating attempt to use a > "feature-rich" telephone sometime around 1990. I'm sure the sentiment > wasn't original, and probably not even the overall phrasing; someone must > have thought of that before me. > - Bjarne Strousstrup ... sounds like karmic retribution for Bjarne after adding C++ onto C From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 21 16:11:15 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 16:11:15 -0600 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <11d901c72550$32135e50$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <003b01c72498$cd011e60$7904010a@uatempname><0f3701c7250e$fa94e3e0$f0fea8c0@alpha><458AE105.1040308@yahoo.co.uk> <20061221131906.S76332@shell.lmi.net> <11d901c72550$32135e50$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <458B0683.7090009@yahoo.co.uk> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> "I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my >> telephone; my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out >> how to >> use my telephone" I said that after a frustrating attempt to use a >> "feature-rich" telephone sometime around 1990. I'm sure the sentiment >> wasn't original, and probably not even the overall phrasing; someone must >> have thought of that before me. > > My (insert preffered expletive here)! All the phones works the same. > The features are added, you can choose not to use them. Yes, but they're *there* for a lot of products, whether you want them or not. If they're not there, and are optional extras, and you pay an additional fee for them if you want them, fine. But that's not how a lot of products work - given an idea of target cost for the final product, development funds have been split up accordingly in order to realise the product; some will go to core functionality and others will go to the 'features'. Net result is that people end up paying for bits they don't actually need, and/or the core product isn't as good at its core job as it might have been because some funding went to the 'extras'. Computer software, by and large (to bring it back on topic!), appears to have gone the same way - in the old days separate software did one job only, but that seems to be less and less of the case these days (even Linux-based solutions aren't immune; it's becoming a real pain to sort out the bits you personally need from the bits that you don't). Hardware thankfully is resisting a little better; you can still mix and match the bits in your PC / Sun box / whatever according to your own personal requirements. There do seem to be a few manufacturers who are trying to change this, too. > My phone is a kind of PDA. I keep my contacts on it, some photos, > music and games, and I feel like it. Which is great, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't be able to. But people should be able to pay for what they need, not the all-or-nothing approach which is often forced upon us. cheers Jules From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Dec 21 16:30:17 2006 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 22:30:17 +0000 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <458B0AF9.3040704@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > It's also amazing how many people don't realise that Philips made > computers. Or eduactional kits (electronics and mechanics). I did my first electronics with one of those Philips kits! -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Dec 21 16:39:33 2006 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 22:39:33 +0000 Subject: Bell 103 Datasets In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393D29@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393D29@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <458B0D25.6050002@gifford.co.uk> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Priot to that UK acoustic couplers where available. I remember > connecting to a time sharing service > (RSTS on an 11/70) using a ModTech coupler whilst working on VDU design > circa 1973. Was it by any chance this model Modular Technology modem: http://www.flickr.com/photos/11328208 at N00/329472291/ (orange-red acoustic coupler, model XAC3001, full or half duplex, 300 baud). -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 21 16:43:53 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:43:53 -0700 Subject: AP 120B In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:01:07 -0600. <00e401c72543$23c13690$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <00e401c72543$23c13690$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > [...] The entire > box is stuffed with ttl from corner to corner with little open space > anywhere. Not sure how they kept it from burning up. Doesn't the unit on ebay have a photo showing muffin fans on one side? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 21 16:46:46 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:46:46 -0700 Subject: Searching cctalk Archive In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:57:05 -0500. <3d7201c72542$93bc2a00$0401a8c0@KSRPC> Message-ID: In article <3d7201c72542$93bc2a00$0401a8c0 at KSRPC>, "Ken Rother" writes: > Is anyone else having trouble searching the CCTALK archive. I always get = > an empty search result. Thanks Try your search after 10 PM :-). (Seriously.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Dec 21 16:55:47 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 17:55:47 -0500 Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... In-Reply-To: <4589D5D6.9020903@nktelco.net> References: <4589D5D6.9020903@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <200612211755.47251.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 20 December 2006 19:31, Charles H. Dickman wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > One thing I'm sort of looking for is my box of Twinax baluns. When > > I find the box, I can hook a real 5250 up to a BA123-sized AS/400 > > that was given to me a couple of years ago that I haven't been able > > to fire up for lack of a console cable. :-/ > > Since twinax is shielded twisted pair, is a BALUN necessary? For a No, it's a coaxial pair, not twisted pair. And a Balun is also "necessary" because of the impedence difference between the cables. > while, I used one twisted pair from about 50ft of ethernet CAT5 cable > to connect the S/34 in my garage to a terminal in the house. The > connectors on each end were two finish nails selected for the correct > diameter. Worked fine while I was play with it. Probably worked ok, because you only had one line to run, and no major sources of RF noise along the cable path. Throw a DC motor, or anything that generates a good amount of RF or power-line noise, and you'd probably start having problems. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 21 18:36:17 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:36:17 -0300 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance References: Message-ID: <121e01c72561$481ffda0$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> But surely you wouldn't buy one to create a datalogging system. > Actually, I just did... > Having bought one 'for interest' and seen how well made it is (well, it's > HP from the good days of HP :-)). the availalbe I/O, the repairability > (all standard chips, a few PALs and ROMs, but nothing large and custom) > and the easy-to-use BASIC and Pascal, I did, indeed, buy another one of a > different model on E-bay (they don't go for ridiculous prices, > fortuanetly), to use as a data logger/control machine. I have a curiosity in doing the same. HP/UX machines seems to be great hackeable tools for any kind of instrumentation control. But as soon as I get a GPIB card for my PC, I don't think I'll look behind anymore. BTW, it would be great to buy some (more) HP stuff for my lab. Today I got a HP Vectra computer! :D My HP 1662A logical analyzer will sit on top of that :D From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Dec 21 18:18:38 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 18:18:38 -0600 Subject: high school and timesharing In-Reply-To: <6730547.1166641199736.JavaMail.?@fh095.dia.cp.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061221181358.0d5feec8@localhost> At 06:59 PM 12/20/2006 +0000, you wrote: >"Rick Bensene" wrote: > > >We had quite a bit of fun writing little programs which would wait >for a > >specific time (during other people's classes), and then "crash" the > >system at that time. Eventually, we got caught. > >This reminds me of an interesting phenomenon we discovered in 1974... >the high school had an ASR-33 connected via a leased data line >(telephone with acoustic coupler) to a PDP-8/E running TSS/8 at Clemson >University, 60 miles away. > >I can't remember exactly what the code was any more, but it was a very >simple patch -we would deposit a mere three words at location 307 >(octal) and execute it (ST 307), and the terminal would log on another >job. So you'd have two accounts open simultaneously on the same TTY! >And if you logged off one account the other would still be open so you >couldn't log off both... they'd have to reboot the system to kill it. >Any TSS/8 gurus know how we might have done this? OMG, that's about exactly the same arrangement we had at my high school- a buncha ASR-33's timesharing on the Globe Union machine (before we bought their PDP-8). We discovered that you could deposit about 3 words from the console, one of which might have been the WHO IOT, and lo! the user's ID and password (!) would be dumped into memory in RAD50 (I think??) where you could easily read them back and decode to ASCII at your leisure. When I got to UWM, I discovered that the trick had been foiled by Dick Bartlein (or was it Sam Milosevich??) rewriting parts of TSS/8 to make it much more secure. Al would know more, probably. [Computing] Lisp has all the visual appeal of oatmeal with fingernail clippings mixed in. --Larry Wall in <1994Jul21.173737.16853 at netlabs.com> --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Dec 21 19:09:56 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:09:56 -0600 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming Message-ID: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> DEC bigots can skip this message safely. :-) I've been working on a TCP/IP stack for my beloved PCjr. There are already TCP/IP stacks that run on it, but that's not the point. Borrowing a page from Tony's book, I decided to write my own so that I could fix the inevitable bugs. Anyway, I'm interested in reducing memory consumption. Any complex code involves tradeoffs between function and performance, and I've been careful, but one thing that is bothering me is the initialization code. I've got a fair amount of code that reads environment variables, talks to the packet driver, and sets up data structures. The nature of the code is that it runs once, and then just sits there consuming memory. Waaay back in history I was a Zbasic user - Zbasic was a fairly nice BASIC dialect/compiler. Zbasic had overlay support, which I used extensively. It wasn't sophisticated, but it did the job. It would be perfect for this code - init everything that I need, and then overlay the init code with the run code. Now 20 years later I'm using Turbo C++ 3.0 for this project, and it has overlay support but it has a more complicated memory manager that goes along with it. I don't have a lot of 'gas' in the code, so going to the VROOOM overlay manager just to overlay my init code is overkill, and will probably require more memory. I was hoping Borland had a simpler mechanism ... Any ideas? The only one I can think of is kind of brute force ... have two apps, one that inits everything and leaves the storage resident, and another that refers to that resident storage. (I was hoping for something simpler in the Borland runtime support.) Mike PS: I'm still looking for a late version of Zbasic .. I had 4.02 and I know that 4.71 was released. I'd love to see what it evolved to, but that's a different topic. From spc at conman.org Thu Dec 21 19:22:49 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 20:22:49 -0500 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> References: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20061222012248.GB25389@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Michael B. Brutman once stated: > > DEC bigots can skip this message safely. :-) > > I've been working on a TCP/IP stack for my beloved PCjr. There are > already TCP/IP stacks that run on it, but that's not the point. > Borrowing a page from Tony's book, I decided to write my own so that I > could fix the inevitable bugs. You're writing a TCP/IP stack for the PCjr in C++? I'd say get away from C++ and find a C compiler. Smaller code, less headaches. > Anyway, I'm interested in reducing memory consumption. Any complex code > involves tradeoffs between function and performance, and I've been > careful, but one thing that is bothering me is the initialization code. > I've got a fair amount of code that reads environment variables, talks > to the packet driver, and sets up data structures. The nature of the > code is that it runs once, and then just sits there consuming memory. How much code are we talking about here? IP itself isn't terribly complex (UDP isn't much harder, although TCP is). The only thing I see being required for setup is IP address, netmask, gateway (broadcast can be figured out with the IP and netmask)---anything else (like DNS) can be added later I would think. > Any ideas? The only one I can think of is kind of brute force ... have > two apps, one that inits everything and leaves the storage resident, and > another that refers to that resident storage. (I was hoping for > something simpler in the Borland runtime support.) Sorry, been too long since I last did MS-DOS programming (although if I were to do it, I'd probably do it in Assembly, and reuse the init portion as data space later on ... ) -spc (My second computer was a PCjr ... did quite a bit of development on it, mostly assembler ... ) From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 21 19:38:33 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 18:38:33 -0700 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 Dec 2006 20:22:49 -0500. <20061222012248.GB25389@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: In article <20061222012248.GB25389 at linus.groomlake.area51>, Sean Conner writes: > You're writing a TCP/IP stack for the PCjr in C++? > > I'd say get away from C++ and find a C compiler. Smaller code, less > headaches. Only if you're a crappy C++ programmer. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Dec 21 19:48:00 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:48:00 -0600 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: <20061222012248.GB25389@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> <20061222012248.GB25389@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <458B3950.6000908@brutman.com> > You're writing a TCP/IP stack for the PCjr in C++? Don't be alarmed. I said C++. I'm not using polymorphism, inheritance, etc. It looks very much like C code, except instead of structs I've got classes and methods to operate on the classes. I'm not a purist about C++ .. it's just a better C. My test app is netcat. Right now, the EXE is is close to 54KB. That includes all of the C runtime functions that I used and quite a bit of tracing code that I can remove with a #define. I can keep piling in code until I'm out of memory, but the fanatic in me says that the init code should be removed because it only runs once. The init code includes: -Reading env variables for IP addr, packet int #, netmask, gateway, MTU, and a few options. -Initializing the packet driver, getting the ethernet address, etc. -Initializing ARP, UDP and TCP global data structures. It's not a horrible amount of code; I just hate leaving it resident. I'm using heap storage too, so my real storage requirements are a bit higher. Still not enough to lose sleep over, but remember the fanatic part? It's fairly easy to do a small IP implementation. UDP isn't bad either. Doing a good TCP implementation (for both performance and required function) has been a lot more difficult. Mike (If you need a Jr I can hook you up.) From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Dec 21 19:50:42 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:50:42 -0600 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming References: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com><20061222012248.GB25389@linus.groomlake.area51> <458B3950.6000908@brutman.com> Message-ID: <017c01c7256b$98573950$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> >I'm not a purist about C++ .. it's just a better C. Not all would agree :D Jay From jmiles007 at iquest.net Thu Dec 21 20:11:26 2006 From: jmiles007 at iquest.net (Jon Miles) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:11:26 -0500 Subject: high school and timesharing In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061221181358.0d5feec8@localhost> Message-ID: <003601c7256e$7ca3d350$6401a8c0@wtr.local> > OMG, that's about exactly the same arrangement we had at my > high school- a buncha ASR-33's timesharing on the Globe Union > machine (before we bought their PDP-8). > > We discovered that you could deposit about 3 words from the > console, one of which might have been the WHO IOT, and lo! > the user's ID and password (!) would be dumped into memory in > RAD50 (I think??) where you could easily read them back and > decode to ASCII at your leisure. > > When I got to UWM, I discovered that the trick had been > foiled by Dick Bartlein (or was it Sam Milosevich??) > rewriting parts of TSS/8 to make it much more secure. > Wow, Tom, are you a Nicolet HS alumnus? From looking in my yearbooks I'm guessing class of '78? I was class of '76 and spent both semesters of my senior year in computer independent study so I spent a lot of time on that 8/e (ex-Globe Union that was purchased by Nicolet in the summer of '75). Almost finished a PAL-D decomplier before I graduated. I then also went to UWM and got to work on their Edusystem 50 too. I remember renting a table top ASR33 and dialing into the UWM system from home. One of these days I need to post an introduction of myself to this list. I have conversed with several DECies on here so some have seen pictures of my project. I am working on assembling all of the pieces to duplicate the Nicolet HS Edusystem 50 and hope to get TSS/8 running on it someday. I want to do a website documenting my project but for now everyone can see it here: http://www.frappr.com/?a=myfrappr&id=844769 Everything in this system has been accumulated separately. It appears my biggest stumbling block to getting TSS/8 running is finding a working RF08/RS08. That's why I have the two RK05Js. I'm hoping I can somehow re-write TSS/8 to run off of an RK05. I've got a lot of studying and relearning to do before that happens. I'm still working on the cleaning/cosmetic restoration right now. The bay above the 8/e is waiting for the PC04 on my workbench. Then it will be time to reform caps, configure boards, start powering things up and get OS/8 running as a start. Tom, if you have any original pictures of the Nicolet system I would love to see them. I have written the HS and they have been no help in finding any pictures of it. I visited there last year for their 50th anniversary and saw the 'closet' (rather small room) it used to live in down in the F wing library. I remember its configuration was a little different than DEC would have normally done. The TU56s/TC08 were in the left rack with the RF08/RS08 in the center. I was pleasantly surprised to find a copy of the UWM TSS/8 Users Guide on bitsavers recently. Jon Miles From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 21 20:33:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 18:33:11 -0800 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> References: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> Message-ID: <458AD367.24658.228EDB3C@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Dec 2006 at 19:09, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Any ideas? The only one I can think of is kind of brute force ... have > two apps, one that inits everything and leaves the storage resident, and > another that refers to that resident storage. (I was hoping for > something simpler in the Borland runtime support.) That's the approach that I'd take--except I'd have the first one write a temp file with all of the initialzed goodies and have the second one read it in. It's dirty, quick and modular--and maybe easier to debug. I do know that not all C/C++ libraries are the same, nor are C/C++ compilers. Some generate lots of calls to the library, which can bring in all sorts of unneeded garbage. I've written C programs with their own startup code that run fine without any C library at all. I don't know if that's even possible in C++, however. Cheers, Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Dec 21 21:08:38 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:08:38 -0600 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: <458AD367.24658.228EDB3C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> <458AD367.24658.228EDB3C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <458B4C36.1020405@brutman.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > That's the approach that I'd take--except I'd have the first one > write a temp file with all of the initialzed goodies and have the > second one read it in. It's dirty, quick and modular--and maybe > easier to debug. Ah, now there is an idea. Quite a bit easier to implement than my idea of trying to leave it resident in memory. Startup will be glacial .. Of course maybe this isn't worth the effort ... > I do know that not all C/C++ libraries are the same, nor are C/C++ > compilers. Some generate lots of calls to the library, which can > bring in all sorts of unneeded garbage. I've written C programs with > their own startup code that run fine without any C library at all. > I don't know if that's even possible in C++, however. No need to fear C++. It's just C with some extras. If you choose to dink with stuff like templates, polymorphism, etc. you get what you deserve. Otherwise, I look at it like just a better C. I use new and malloc as it suits me, and never use iostreams .. good old stdio works just fine. This compiler (Borland Turbo C++ 3.0) generates a map file so that I can see what I dragged in, and correct my code accordingly. Mike From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 21 21:11:20 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 20:11:20 -0700 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:50:42 -0600. <017c01c7256b$98573950$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: In article <017c01c7256b$98573950$6600a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, "Jay West" writes: > >I'm not a purist about C++ .. it's just a better C. > > Not all would agree :D The beauty and the ugliness of C++ is that it can mutate into almost any kind of programming paradigm, depending on how much you want to torture things like template classes and the preprocessor. There's a reason its the "obfuscated C contest" and not the 'obfuscated Pascal contest'. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 21 21:36:33 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 20:36:33 -0700 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:08:38 -0600. <458B4C36.1020405@brutman.com> Message-ID: In article <458B4C36.1020405 at brutman.com>, "Michael B. Brutman" writes: > If you choose to dink with stuff like templates, polymorphism, etc. you > get what you deserve. Otherwise, I look at it like just a better C. I > use new and malloc as it suits me, and never use iostreams .. good old > stdio works just fine. Templates don't have to lead to bloat. Templates are just the preprocessor on steroids. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 21 21:39:58 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:39:58 -0800 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <458AE30E.10450.22CBFF32@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Dec 2006 at 20:11, Richard wrote: > The beauty and the ugliness of C++ is that it can mutate into almost > any kind of programming paradigm, depending on how much you want to > torture things like template classes and the preprocessor. I used to say the same thing about Ada. Cheers, Chuck From chd_1 at nktelco.net Thu Dec 21 21:50:23 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 22:50:23 -0500 Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... In-Reply-To: <200612211755.47251.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4589D5D6.9020903@nktelco.net> <200612211755.47251.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <458B55FF.8000402@nktelco.net> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > No, it's a coaxial pair, not twisted pair. And a Balun is > also "necessary" because of the impedence difference between the > cables. Corrected. What sort of cable is typically used in place of twinax when the BALUNs are used? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 21 21:55:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:55:38 -0800 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: <458B4C36.1020405@brutman.com> References: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com>, <458AD367.24658.228EDB3C@cclist.sydex.com>, <458B4C36.1020405@brutman.com> Message-ID: <458AE6BA.31195.22DA5759@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Dec 2006 at 21:08, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > No need to fear C++. It's just C with some extras. Not exactly--I've written plenty of C++ and find that the language features are like chocolate--enough is wonderful, too much is nauseating. The uncertainty about libraries and such to me is the issue of memory management--it's sort of hard to have constructors and destructors without some sort of memory manager. OTOH, C can live just fine with nothing more than a stack. Here's where I draw my own (somewhat arbitrary) line--applications- type user-mode code is great with C++, particularly if you have your own class libraries all built up. If you have a memory leak or dangling reference, it'll end up crashing your application, but the system itself will likely keep chugging right along. But if I'm going to write a device driver, TSR, or some other bit of SYSTEM code in a HLL where memory utilization must be predicable and well-behaved, I'll take C, thank you. Just an old fogie speaking, so ignore if you wish. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 21 21:56:34 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:56:34 -0800 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <458AE6F2.30397.22DB327E@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Dec 2006 at 20:11, Richard wrote: > The beauty and the ugliness of C++ is that it can mutate into almost > any kind of programming paradigm, depending on how much you want to > torture things like template classes and the preprocessor. Come to think of it, I said pretty much the same thing about PL/I. :) Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Dec 21 21:57:29 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:57:29 -0800 Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* In-Reply-To: <20061219224534.85028.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >From: Chris M > >WHAT THE MAC MIGHT HAVE BEEN reads the caption. > > I haven't spent much time with muh Cat (that Cat >anyway ;), so I can't rightly say whether it featured >any enhancements over the old skool Macs. Certainly >not in drive capacity. I thoroughly welcome comments >though. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/Canon-Cat-Computer-What-the-Mac-Might-Have-Been_W0QQitemZ140065192665QQihZ004QQcategoryZ51046QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >these things are seemingly pretty rare though. It >boggles me when I think that IIRC 20,000 or so were >made. Who would have the heart to throw one out! > Hi I suspect that fewer of these will be tossed out now. I have one sitting on my desk right now, next to me. I've been hacking into mine lately and have some fun exploring the inner workings or this machine. It has one other distinction, other than being designed by Jef Raskin. It showed that it is possible to deliver significantly large and complex piece of software with out any bugs and on schedule. Few of the things built in todays programming languages were used as part of the development but it still was done, error free and on schedule. I knew some of the people that worked on this project. I also know what made methods were used. It didn't include a language with type checking or any such methods. Jef Raskin understood how it was done and did it again in later products. Such is life, Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get FREE Web site and company branded e-mail from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Dec 21 22:02:59 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 23:02:59 -0500 Subject: OT Re: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200612212302.59645.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 21 December 2006 20:38, Richard wrote: > In article <20061222012248.GB25389 at linus.groomlake.area51>, > > Sean Conner writes: > > You're writing a TCP/IP stack for the PCjr in C++? > > > > I'd say get away from C++ and find a C compiler. Smaller code, > > less headaches. > > Only if you're a crappy C++ programmer. Most programmers I've dealt with are crappy programmers, let alone crappy C++ programmers. I won't say I'm great, but at least I know better than to do a lot of the dumb-ass things I've seen in some OSS and commercial code I've worked on. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 21 22:57:07 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 20:57:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: <458B3950.6000908@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at "Dec 21, 6 07:48:00 pm" Message-ID: <200612220457.kBM4v8dB022272@floodgap.com> > (If you need a Jr I can hook you up.) How about cartridges/accessories? My jr is lonely. I am a fairly blatant pro-Mac bigot, but the jr is a PC I like. It has personality that didn't deserve the ham-handed market placement IBM stuck it in. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Time is what keeps everything from happening at once. ---------------------- From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Dec 21 23:24:55 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 00:24:55 -0500 Subject: got a rare 386 CPU Message-ID: A80386EXI, step B http://wiggum.4amlunch.net/~vax9000/PHOTOS/DSCN6606.JPG From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Dec 22 01:28:02 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 23:28:02 -0800 Subject: got a rare 386 CPU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <458B8902.7040500@msm.umr.edu> 9000 VAX wrote: > A80386EXI, step B > http://wiggum.4amlunch.net/~vax9000/PHOTOS/DSCN6606.JPG > > this might date from 85 or 86, I would think. I was working on an I2ICE 386 at Pick systems in 86, using it for driver development. The 386DX was around that time anyway, and would have predated the I2ICE 386 and its bondout chip. Jim From cc at corti-net.de Fri Dec 22 04:24:14 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:24:14 +0100 (CET) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Dec 2006, Richard wrote: >> The matter with cell phones is that there is always innovation. A TV set >> is a TV set, there are no news on that. > ...at least if you think like a TV manufacturer. > If you think like a computer manufacturer and see video as just > another data stream, then there's tons going on in TV electronics. That's not television, that's data processing. >> Same to a stereo, what else would >> you want into a stereo? > Recording radio programs from a schedule into an internal hard disk > for later playback? Haven't seen any analogue hard disk drives recently... >> Maybe USB MP3 playing! > Now you're starting to get it. You don't need a stereo for that. A stereo is only useful for audio playback of quality material. > embranced the digital revolution. They are still thinking of TV > "features" in terms of analog circuitry. Because that's TV. My 1950s TV set is more useful than any modern TV because it really displays what it receives without any delay and just what it gets. Todays sets need seconds to switch channels, artificially blur the image ("50Hz->100Hz conversion"), show artifacts (deinterlacer), have highly nested unusable menus and so on... > interfaces beyond existing analog interfaces. This is why its cheaper > to build a media PC and have it act as a DVR than it is to buy a > "consumer electronics" DVR that talks to your existing PCs. You really don't know what you say. Do you think it's progressive to download firmware updates into your TV set? Having to boot it? Fighting against all kind of software bugs? Christian From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Dec 22 06:56:18 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 09:56:18 -0300 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance References: <458B0AF9.3040704@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <130301c725c9$243f9770$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> It's also amazing how many people don't realise that Philips made >> computers. Or eduactional kits (electronics and mechanics). > I did my first electronics with one of those Philips kits! www.hansotten.com has good info and photos of those kits if you want to remember that! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 22 06:59:35 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 06:59:35 -0600 Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... Message-ID: <458BD6B7.8040100@yahoo.co.uk> Out of interest, which is the correct terminology when defining a single point on a disk's surface - is it better to talk in terms of cylinders, or tracks? People often seem to talk about floppy drives in terms of tracks, heads and sectors (e.g. for an 80 cylinder floppy with two sides they'll still talk in terms of tracks 1-80 in conjunction with a side number, even though the media has 160 tracks in total) Talking in terms of cylinders seems to be generally the norm with hard disks though, and perhaps seems a bit more sensible - but remember that hard disk manufacturers are the people who introduced decimal megabytes into common use :-) Personally I prefer to talk in terms of 'surface number' rather than 'head number', as a given surface could conceivably have more than one head in order to improve media latency - but I'm unsure as to whether to use cylinder/surface/sector or track/surface/sector. It's all just semantics, but for the stuff I'm currently working on I'd rather go with the 'correct' version even if that happens not to be the one most commonly used... cheers Jules From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Dec 22 09:46:05 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:46:05 -0500 Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... In-Reply-To: <458BD6B7.8040100@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200612221452.kBMEptHR024303@hosting.monisys.ca> > > Out of interest, which is the correct terminology when defining a single point > on a disk's surface - is it better to talk in terms of cylinders, or tracks? > > People often seem to talk about floppy drives in terms of tracks, heads and > sectors (e.g. for an 80 cylinder floppy with two sides they'll still talk in > terms of tracks 1-80 in conjunction with a side number, even though the media > has 160 tracks in total) The problem is that "Tracks" is ambiguous - it could be "track number the start of the surface" or "track number from the start of the entire media" both uses of the term have become common enough that the meaning has to be explicitly stated. My vote is for Cylinders to refer to the position over any surface (ie: from Cylinder 0 - funny - many referefnces refer to this as Track-0 even if they use the Cylinders convention otherwise), and for Tracks to refer to the position from the beginning of the media (entire disk) - But I know I've used Tracks in both ways - best to explicitly state which convention you are using. btw - with floppies, it can be worse - NorthStar floppies are logically treated as a single range of 35, 40, 80 or 160 tracks (depending on the type of drive) however when you reach the innermost Track/Cylinder of Side-0, the next logical track is the innermost track/cylinder of Side-1 - in other words, it steps in for increasing track numbers when they exist on Side-0 and out for increasing track numbers when they exist on Side-1 - So absolute track and sector numbers (absolute from start of media) will be different than you might expect if you are used to a system which advances C/H/S though it's logical progression. This is yet another ambiguity with "Tracks". -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Dec 22 09:07:59 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 09:07:59 -0600 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: <458AE6BA.31195.22DA5759@cclist.sydex.com> References: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com>, <458AD367.24658.228EDB3C@cclist.sydex.com>, <458B4C36.1020405@brutman.com> <458AE6BA.31195.22DA5759@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <458BF4CF.5020203@brutman.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Dec 2006 at 21:08, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > >> No need to fear C++. It's just C with some extras. > > Not exactly--I've written plenty of C++ and find that the language > features are like chocolate--enough is wonderful, too much is > nauseating. > > The uncertainty about libraries and such to me is the issue of memory > management--it's sort of hard to have constructors and destructors > without some sort of memory manager. OTOH, C can live just fine with > nothing more than a stack. Well, here you have a basic misunderstanding of how C++ works. Constructors and destructors require a little more tracking, but it does not require a memory manager. A constructor runs when an object is created, and the destructor runs when it goes out of scope. If you are working with objects on the stack then additional memory management is not needed - the compiler generates extra code to call the destructor as appropriate. And that assumes you use destructors. My objects generally have constructors for initialization, but never destructors. I revert back to a more 'C' like technique of having a function that handles cleanup, if it's needed. The best way to avoid forgetting to do cleanup is to avoid putting yourself into a situation where cleanup is necessary. :-) Destructors are one way to do that, good design is another. > Here's where I draw my own (somewhat arbitrary) line--applications- > type user-mode code is great with C++, particularly if you have your > own class libraries all built up. If you have a memory leak or > dangling reference, it'll end up crashing your application, but the > system itself will likely keep chugging right along. > > But if I'm going to write a device driver, TSR, or some other bit of > SYSTEM code in a HLL where memory utilization must be predicable and > well-behaved, I'll take C, thank you. I don't understand again. I can write C code that is ugly too. C++ is C with some extra syntactic sugar. If you use dumb functions in C, you'll get bad system code too. This is just the stereotype of object oriented languages being bloated/unpredictable, which is not necessarily true. I had a friend at Big Blue who told me he could do OO in RPG, or assembler in C++. The choice was his. > Just an old fogie speaking, so ignore if you wish. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Dec 22 01:55:39 2006 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 07:55:39 -0000 Subject: Bell 103 Datasets Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D393D2C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Yes that's it!! All of their stuff was that bright red colour. That reminds me... If anybody hears of a Newbury Labs VDU (M2480) up for grabs or sale they might let me know. I worked there in the early 70's and another one of the guy's from those days lives about a mile from me. rodsmallwood at btconnect.com 0118 971 4436 -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Honniball Sent: 21 December 2006 22:40 To: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Bell 103 Datasets Rod Smallwood wrote: > Priot to that UK acoustic couplers where available. I remember > connecting to a time sharing service (RSTS on an 11/70) using a > ModTech coupler whilst working on VDU design circa 1973. Was it by any chance this model Modular Technology modem: http://www.flickr.com/photos/11328208 at N00/329472291/ (orange-red acoustic coupler, model XAC3001, full or half duplex, 300 baud). -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Fri Dec 22 09:23:44 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:23:44 -0500 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: <458BF4CF.5020203@brutman.com> References: <458AE6BA.31195.22DA5759@cclist.sydex.com> <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> <458AD367.24658.228EDB3C@cclist.sydex.com> <458B4C36.1020405@brutman.com> <458AE6BA.31195.22DA5759@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061222101000.03b76420@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Michael B. Brutman may have mentioned these words: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >I don't understand again. I can write C code that is ugly too. C++ is C >with some extra syntactic sugar. When I refer to C++ bloat, this is actually what I talk about - not the 'bloat' of the final code, that depends on the programmer, not the language.[1] To me, it's hard enough to keep everything straight (and readable) in C... and if C++ was *just basic classes* I could prolly wrap my head around that enough to be comfortable. However, the polymorphism[2] and operator overloading makes it (IMHO, of course) harder to discern what others are doing with the code... Now, I know just enough C to be dangerous, and hadn't touched C++ until a few weeks ago, as I had to learn enough to tutor 2 college students for one of their courses... ;-) Altho now that I understand C++'s constructors & destructors a [very] little better, I might be able to wrap my brain around Python's OO stuff a little more easily... But at least OO isn't required there, either. >>Just an old fogie speaking, so ignore if you wish. I seriously doubt I'm as old chronologically as you, but as they say: You're only as old as you feel... so I must be pushin' about 80. ;-) So I guess I'm an "old fogie Jr." ;-) Prost, and Frueliche Weinachten! Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] well, except PHP, but that's another thread; one that's best left alone... [2] Now, if you get a "Wand of Polymorph" in Rogue, those are handy rascals, indeed. ;-) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From MGemeny at pgcps.org Fri Dec 22 09:35:46 2006 From: MGemeny at pgcps.org (Mike Gemeny) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:35:46 -0500 Subject: HP 2000F' Message-ID: <15EDC737436349459458881C284C88DB0170B4@PGCPS2K3EXIS1.pgcps.org> The simplest distinction between HP2000 F and Access is that, F and everything prior (As I recall) used KILL-name (or KIL-name) to delete a program so that one could save a new version of it. Access changed that to PURGE-name (or PUR-name) for better "Political Correctness". I even remember that the system at Laurel HS in Laurel MD "Patti", made this change in the summer of 1976. Does ether "kill" or "purge" ring a bell to you, Richard? I see many people telling wonderful stories about HP2000 systems. If some of the others could also share with us where the systems were located, someone else in the group may also remember some of them. Three of the original HP2000 operating systems are running under SIMH, version E, F, and Access. If anyone is interested in booting up a real HP2000 TSB OS on simulated hardware (E should run on Unix, all three should run on Windoz), you may want to checkout: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/hp2000family/ The links to the E and F Zips are in the links section of the group. The group is a good place to ask support questions about the OS or the simulation. New members are moderated to prevent spam bots from spamming us. If I can tell that you're a real person I'll take that off as soon as I see it, or you can call it to my attention by email. The Access Zip STILL has a real backup of a real system on it (sorry about that). So it is available by request. On the subject of Z999, I seem to recall that at least some of the systems before Access even had the HELLO program residing in Z999. As far as I have seen in the Access source Z999 no longer had any special privelages. Someone asked about backing up TSB E without a tape drive. The 7900 disk drive had one fixed platter and one removable platter. The system and A000 library was on the fixed platter, and user catalogs were on the removable platter. To backup, you first shutdown the Timeshare System. Then remove the top disk platter cartridge (containing the user libraries). Put a scratch cartridge in and copy the fixed disk to it. Then put the user data cartridge back in and copy it to the fixed disk platter (trashing your system disk). Then put in another scratch disk and copy the user data from the fixed disk to the removable disk. Then, put your backup of the system data back in, restore the fixed disk, then put your user pack back in and start up the timeshare again. Presto, you now have a backup removable platter containing a copy of the system platter and another with a copy of the user data. If course, when running on simulated hardware, tape drives are free, so we usually backup even TSB E to tape image files. The TSB E OS was distributed on two paper tapes, with a third tape for the loader. The ZIP files for the simulator contain images of the original paper tapes. Remember, the simulator is only simulating the hardware. Even on Access we are using an image of the original paper tape bootstrap to get the system running. The original operating systems don't know that they are not running on real hardware. Even for someone interested in building a real system, having access to all of the binaries and documentation in one nice neat package that is freely available and will even boot and run on a laptop, should be a helpful tool. It can help you get used to the system operator, system administrator and system analyst roles before you get your real hardware running. And besides, it's fun to "telnet 127.0.0.1" and do a CR LF CR LF and see "PLEASE LOG IN". If anyone knows or may be able to track down anyone who may still have an old HP2000 system back up tape, we would love to hear about it. We have had great success reading and reloading old tapes under simulation. Hope this helps, Mike Gemeny From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Dec 22 09:23:41 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:23:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... In-Reply-To: <458BD6B7.8040100@yahoo.co.uk> References: <458BD6B7.8040100@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200612221536.KAA06499@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Out of interest, which is the correct terminology when defining a > single point on a disk's surface - is it better to talk in terms of > cylinders, or tracks? Depends on whether you want two numbers or three, I'd say. :-) > People often seem to talk about floppy drives in terms of tracks, > heads and sectors (e.g. for an 80 cylinder floppy with two sides > they'll still talk in terms of tracks 1-80 in conjunction with a side > number, even though the media has 160 tracks in total) The medium has thousands of sectors, too, but it doesn't seem to bother you to speak of sector number within the context of a given track; I don't understand what bothers you about speaking of track number within the context of a given cylinder. > Talking in terms of cylinders seems to be generally the norm with > hard disks though, and perhaps seems a bit more sensible - but > remember that hard disk manufacturers are the people who introduced > decimal megabytes into common use :-) They also brought us ZBR; unless you're going to the trouble to get hold of the notch table, or you're talking about pre-ZBR disks, using cylinder/track-within-cylinder/sector-within-track terminology, while physically accurate, is not terribly useful - regardless of which words you use for the numbers. > Personally I prefer to talk in terms of 'surface number' rather than > 'head number', as a given surface could conceivably have more than > one head in order to improve media latency - but I'm unsure as to > whether to use cylinder/surface/sector or track/surface/sector. It's > all just semantics, but for the stuff I'm currently working on I'd > rather go with the 'correct' version even if that happens not to be > the one most commonly used... I'm not aware of any standard beyond that of common use, on this point (which of course does not mean there is none). It does seem to me that using "track" for cylinder number is likely to be confusing, because when I've seen it used, it's been referring to track-within-cylinder, which is your "surface" - except for floppies, confusingly enough. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Dec 22 09:40:20 2006 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 9:40:20 -0600 Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... Message-ID: <20061222154021.ETYS3802.ibm63aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> > Out of interest, which is the correct terminology when defining a single point > on a disk's surface - is it better to talk in terms of cylinders, or tracks? I generally teach it this way. A track is the path traced by a single head during a rotation of the spindle. A cylinder is the set of tracks traced by all the heads for a single position of the arm. Thus specifying the cylinder number specifies the position of the arm. Specifying the head number selects the desired track from the set in the cylinder. > cylinder/surface/sector or track/surface/sector. It's all just semantics, but Track/surface is actually redundant since the combination of cylinder and head uniquely identifies a track. In other words, the track number implies the surface. As to the usage in the floppy world, I'd guess that it started with the old single-sided floppies. For them, a cylinder and a track were the same thing. Then for double-sided floppies, people tended to talk in terms of a track number on a side and didn't think in terms of cylinders at all. But on multiplatter disks, the concept of a cylinder becomes a lot more meaningful. Regardless of how many surfaces we have, it is the difference between our current cylinder number and the desired one that dominates the access time. BLS From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Dec 22 09:38:44 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:38:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061222101000.03b76420@mail.30below.com> References: <458AE6BA.31195.22DA5759@cclist.sydex.com> <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> <458AD367.24658.228EDB3C@cclist.sydex.com> <458B4C36.1020405@brutman.com> <458AE6BA.31195.22DA5759@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20061222101000.03b76420@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200612221542.KAA06553@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] and if C++ [were] *just basic classes* I could prolly wrap my > head around that enough to be comfortable. However, the > polymorphism[2] and operator overloading makes it (IMHO, of course) > harder to discern what others are doing with the code... "There is not now nor will there ever be a language in which it is the least bit difficult to write bad code." Yes, operator overloading and polymorphism can make for difficult-to-read code if misused - but that's nothing new; so can a lot of features of C. When used right, overloading and polymorphism produce *more* readable code - though that's almost a tautology (since improving readability is part of using them "right"). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Dec 22 09:48:42 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:48:42 -0500 Subject: got an HP 9915A computer Message-ID: Haven't decided what to do with it yet. Got a DEC VT240, no monitor, no keyboard. free for shipping. Got a VAXSTATION 3100 model VS42??, there is a crack on the face panel. Looks good other than that crack. No disks. Free for shipping. vax, 9000 From ken at seefried.com Fri Dec 22 09:50:38 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:50:38 -0500 Subject: Multibus II Card on eBay Message-ID: <20061222155038.26386.qmail@seefried.com> Dunno if anyone on the list is into Multibus II gear, but if you are you might want to grab this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190064943671 It's not a VME card, it's a 68030 Multibus II card. Very unusual. He's got a few other more pedestrian M-II card as well. Ken From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 22 10:13:34 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:13:34 -0600 Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... In-Reply-To: <200612221452.kBMEptHR024303@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200612221452.kBMEptHR024303@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <458C042E.6090207@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Out of interest, which is the correct terminology when defining a single point >> on a disk's surface - is it better to talk in terms of cylinders, or tracks? >> >> People often seem to talk about floppy drives in terms of tracks, heads and >> sectors (e.g. for an 80 cylinder floppy with two sides they'll still talk in >> terms of tracks 1-80 in conjunction with a side number, even though the media >> has 160 tracks in total) > > The problem is that "Tracks" is ambiguous - it could be "track number the start > of the surface" or "track number from the start of the entire media" both uses of the > term have become common enough that the meaning has to be explicitly stated. > > My vote is for Cylinders to refer to the position over any surface (ie: from > Cylinder 0 - funny - many referefnces refer to this as Track-0 even if they > use the Cylinders convention otherwise), and for Tracks to refer to the position > from the beginning of the media (entire disk) - But I know I've used Tracks > in both ways - best to explicitly state which convention you are using. Yes, I'd be naturally inclined to use cylinders - I just wondered if there was any good reason not to, given that (particularly in the floppy world) 'tracks' often gets thrown around to mean 'cylinders'. As Brian says, it's probably a hang-up from the days when floppy disks were pretty much single sided and so the terms did mean the same thing... Oh, that's another thing - is there a correct convention for track numbering? There seem to be equal numbers of apps out there which treat the first track as track zero as there are which treat it as track one :-) (Personal preference would be to number from zero, just because it likely makes some programming calculations easier, but I'm not sure if it's technically wrong to present that visually to the user...) > btw - with floppies, it can be worse - NorthStar floppies are logically treated > as a single range of 35, 40, 80 or 160 tracks (depending on the type of drive) > however when you reach the innermost Track/Cylinder of Side-0, the next > logical track is the innermost track/cylinder of Side-1 - in other words, it steps > in for increasing track numbers when they exist on Side-0 and out for > increasing track numbers when they exist on Side-1 - So absolute track and > sector numbers (absolute from start of media) will be different than you might > expect if you are used to a system which advances C/H/S though it's > logical progression. This is yet another ambiguity with "Tracks". Hmm, that's interesting. I'm messing around writing a floppy image manipulator [1] that'll work at the filesystem level. NorthStar's very low on the priority list though, so I'll just keep that in mind - when it comes to it though it should only be an issue at the interface between the filesystem driver and disk image driver, so it's not something that the user needs to worry about. [1] Actually, I'm trying to avoid the word 'floppy' as there's no reason that it shouldn't work with hard disk images too, and probably even tapes. cheers Jules From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 22 11:09:29 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:09:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... In-Reply-To: <4586018C.2010201@gmail.com> References: <200612172043.52682.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4586018C.2010201@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Dec 2006, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > You can also pick up "5250 emulation cards", which allow your PC to >> emulate a 5250 terminal. All of those that I've seen are ISA cards. > > I've seen Microchannel ones too. I have a whole box of them. I think a bunch of them are reversible ISA/MCA cards too. -Toth From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Dec 22 11:12:45 2006 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 12:12:45 -0500 Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... In-Reply-To: <200612221512.kBMFCANI008212@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001b01c725ec$664f6fa0$6500a8c0@barry> A Cylinder is not a single point; it's the collection of multiple tracks that are all under the read/write heads whenever the heads are positioned over that cylinder. It exists only because there are multiple heads. However, while a double sided floppy drive does have cylinders, some systems did not take advantage of them and accessed the floppy drive using all of one side first, then all of the other side, rather than using cylinders (rather than tracks) sequentially. Both types of access are possible, and cylinder based access is clearly "better", but not all systems worked that way. Message: 31 Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 06:59:35 -0600 From: Jules Richardson Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <458BD6B7.8040100 at yahoo.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Out of interest, which is the correct terminology when defining a single point on a disk's surface - is it better to talk in terms of cylinders, or tracks? People often seem to talk about floppy drives in terms of tracks, heads and sectors (e.g. for an 80 cylinder floppy with two sides they'll still talk in terms of tracks 1-80 in conjunction with a side number, even though the media has 160 tracks in total) Talking in terms of cylinders seems to be generally the norm with hard disks though, and perhaps seems a bit more sensible - but remember that hard disk manufacturers are the people who introduced decimal megabytes into common use :-) Personally I prefer to talk in terms of 'surface number' rather than 'head number', as a given surface could conceivably have more than one head in order to improve media latency - but I'm unsure as to whether to use cylinder/surface/sector or track/surface/sector. It's all just semantics, but for the stuff I'm currently working on I'd rather go with the 'correct' version even if that happens not to be the one most commonly used... cheers Jules From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 22 11:13:19 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:13:19 -0600 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> References: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> Message-ID: <458C122F.6060802@oldskool.org> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > Now 20 years later I'm using Turbo C++ 3.0 for this project, and it has > overlay support but it has a more complicated memory manager that goes > along with it. I don't have a lot of 'gas' in the code, so going to the > VROOOM overlay manager just to overlay my init code is overkill, and > will probably require more memory. I was hoping Borland had a simpler > mechanism ... Turbo Pascal has a good overlay system, but it too is about 4K of code. So if the amount of code size you're trying to save is the same size or smaller than the overlay manager itself, it doesn't make sense to overlay. Unfortunately I can't think of any easy solutions at this point. I can think of solutions, but not easy ones :) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 22 11:13:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:13:43 -0700 Subject: HP 2000F' In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:35:46 -0500. <15EDC737436349459458881C284C88DB0170B4@PGCPS2K3EXIS1.pgcps.org> Message-ID: In article <15EDC737436349459458881C284C88DB0170B4 at PGCPS2K3EXIS1.pgcps.org>, "Mike Gemeny" writes: > Does ether "kill" or "purge" ring a bell to you, Richard? I think it was purge, but ya know my neurons can't be trusted now :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Dec 22 11:17:58 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:17:58 -0600 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: <458AD367.24658.228EDB3C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> <458AD367.24658.228EDB3C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <458C1346.8030605@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > That's the approach that I'd take--except I'd have the first one > write a temp file with all of the initialzed goodies and have the > second one read it in. It's dirty, quick and modular--and maybe > easier to debug. Hey, pretty clever. Or, to save using disk as temp space, just have the init program leave all that info in memory and pass the seg:ofs of the struct to the 2nd portion of the code. If one chains to the other, there's no fear of the data being overwritten. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Dec 22 11:24:40 2006 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:24:40 -0600 Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... Message-ID: <20061222172440.HOCX22965.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> > Oh, that's another thing - is there a correct convention for track numbering? > There seem to be equal numbers of apps out there which treat the first track > as track zero as there are which treat it as track one :-) (Personal > preference would be to number from zero, just because it likely makes some > programming calculations easier, but I'm not sure if it's technically wrong to > present that visually to the user...) I'm not sure there is a correct convention. I do know that controller programming can be a bit weird. The old AT-style controllers on PCs seemed to want the cylinders and heads numbered from 0 and the sectors numbered from 1. I don't have any hardware docs with me at the moment, but that's what I've seen in drivers. As an aside, it's fun to try to explain to a class who've only seen sanitized classroom examples that the real world is filled with stuff like this. That's why I like to teach OS with code, and not just general principles. BLS From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Dec 22 11:29:12 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:29:12 -0600 Subject: Extraneous Features (was: Re: Advice for tape drive repair...) In-Reply-To: <200612220400.kBM402oM002563@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612220400.kBM402oM002563@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 22:00 -0600 12/21/06, Jules wrote: >Yes, but they're *there* for a lot of products, whether you want them or not. >If they're not there, and are optional extras, and you pay an additional fee >for them if you want them, fine. This is a bit unusual, but there are cases where the added features make it impossible to use the product. Cell-phone cameras are a case in point. There are places I work where I would not be allowed to carry a cell phone which has a camera. Mine doesn't, so I'm OK. Then there are cases (in software, usually) where an "added feature" means an entry point for abuse/breakage .... that affects more people. -- Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) 210-379-4635 Dwarf Phone, 210-522-6025 Office Phone From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Dec 22 11:30:43 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:30:43 +0100 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <0e0701c724a0$a9128900$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <0e0701c724a0$a9128900$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <1166808643.5436.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-12-20 at 22:37 -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > serive manual and parts backup. Alas I suspect I am the only person who > > feels this way so I can't blame the manufacturers for not making one. > Make that two... Three.. :) I recently got a 1999 Sony 21" monitor. Apparently, Sony does not have spare components anymore. There are schematics, but if a custom part has failed, I'm screwed. This seems to happen quite a lot with late 90s/early 00s higher-end monitors, and none of the vendors seem to be willing to sell any spares. -Tore From jplist at kiwigeek.com Fri Dec 22 11:47:02 2006 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:47:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Dec 2006, Tothwolf wrote: > On Sun, 17 Dec 2006, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > You can also pick up "5250 emulation cards", which allow your PC to > >> emulate a 5250 terminal. All of those that I've seen are ISA cards. > > > > I've seen Microchannel ones too. > > I have a whole box of them. I think a bunch of them are reversible ISA/MCA > cards too. Although it may be specific to the S/34 alone, the S/34 cannot use a terminal emulation card as its primary terminal/system console. You can use it to emulate the other consoles, or any printer, but not the primary one (in socket 0). So these cards are of no use to someone with an IBM machine, a couple spools of TwinAx, but no terminal - like myself. Again, this may only relate to the S/34, but... FYI. JP Hindin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 22 12:43:39 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:43:39 -0800 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: <458BF4CF.5020203@brutman.com> References: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com>, <458AE6BA.31195.22DA5759@cclist.sydex.com>, <458BF4CF.5020203@brutman.com> Message-ID: <458BB6DB.18632.2607583B@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Dec 2006 at 9:07, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Well, here you have a basic misunderstanding of how C++ works. > Constructors and destructors require a little more tracking, but it does > not require a memory manager. A constructor runs when an object is > created, and the destructor runs when it goes out of scope. If you are > working with objects on the stack then additional memory management is > not needed - the compiler generates extra code to call the destructor as > appropriate. I know that--but it's the temptation to use new() and delete() that can get you into trouble. If you never explicitly destroy an object, then you're fine, as you've said--unless you were supposed to (e.g. creating global instances and then forgetting to delete them). Memory leaks can be some of the most frustrating things to debug--and plenty of production code has been released with them. For whatever reason, they seem to be more common in C++ than in C. Heaven only knows, had I been more enlightened, I might have well saved a bunch of deveopment time by devising classes and methods for all of that nasty Windows NT kernel-mode stuff--or maybe not. Debugging a device driver can be a pretty miserable job and the less syntactic "noise" in the way, the better for me. But that's the way my mind works. OTOH, I've written application code in C++ and have been pleasantly surpised at ease at which the application went together and the resulting executable size. That doesn't mean that I'm anti-OOP; that would be just silly. But I can write a typedef for a struct that includes data, pointers and pointers to functions perfectly well in C. So, if I'm writing a little utility that requires two pieces--say, a device driver and the application code that invokes it, I'l still write the driver in C (or assembly, whichever is appropriate) and the application in C++. It's just the way I think. Cheers, Chuck From hamren at sdu.se Fri Dec 22 12:47:21 2006 From: hamren at sdu.se (Lars Hamren) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:47:21 +0100 Subject: Pertec 33xx and 34xx drives Message-ID: <17804.10297.808564.810238@host-85-30-147-92.sydskane.nu> Lars Hamren writes: Hi, Computer Automation LSI-2 machines, of which I have two, used Pertec D33xx drives, of which I have none. There is now a somewhat pricey Pertec D3421 drive on eBay. The $500 question is: will this drive interface to my systems? Does anyone have documentation on Pertec 33xx and 34xx disk drives? Does anyone know if 34xx can drives be used on systems designed for 33xx? Regards /Lars ------------------------------------------------------------------- Lars Hamr?n Tel...: +46( 46)189090 Svensk Datorutveckling Mobile: +46(705)189090 Vadm?llan 211 e-post: hamren at sdu.se S-225 94 Lund WWW...: www.sdu.se Sweden From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 22 12:53:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 10:53:19 -0800 Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... In-Reply-To: <20061222172440.HOCX22965.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> References: <20061222172440.HOCX22965.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <458BB91F.24764.2610313F@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Dec 2006 at 11:24, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > I'm not sure there is a correct convention. I do know that controller > programming can be a bit weird. The old AT-style controllers on PCs > seemed to want the cylinders and heads numbered from 0 and the > sectors numbered from 1. At least one WD PeeCee controller stashed disk parameters on sector 0, side 0, track 0--i.e., it didn't use the built-in BIOS tables. IIRC, the WD 1006 series did this. So, there was no prohibition to actually having a zeroth sector--my first do-it-yourself hard disk for my PC (using a WD1001 controller) used physical numbering from 0. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 22 13:23:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:23:57 -0800 Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... In-Reply-To: <200612221452.kBMEptHR024303@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <458BD6B7.8040100@yahoo.co.uk>, <200612221452.kBMEptHR024303@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <458BC04D.28130.262C46F6@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Dec 2006 at 10:46, Dave Dunfield wrote: > btw - with floppies, it can be worse... Much worse. In fact, when talking about floppy addressing, one needs to take into account the following: a. The physical position of the sector/side/track on the disk. b. The address in the header for each sector on the disk c. What the driver calls them d. What the operating system calls them For example, if the OS/driver combination uses a transparent sparing method, there is a translation between (c) and (d) that maps out bad sectors, so the disk appears to be a continuous span of unflawed sectors. Another example is the insistence of CP/M on 128 byte sectors--there's a blocker/deblocker that maps 128 byte sectors to 256 byte or larger sectors. For (b) to (c), the driver generally performs a translation from some sort of linear consecutive addressing to whatever the floppy sector addresses are. Usually, this is a form of sector "skewing" , but it needn't be--I've got at least one OS sample that places sector 0 on track 20 on a 40 track disk (SSDD, so tracks=cylinders in this case). The sequence then proceeds from track 20 outward to track 0, then inward from track 21 to track 39. Similarly, on double-sided diskettes, addressing can proceed from sector, then side, then cylinder or sector, cylinder then side. Some formats go from physical cylinder 0 to cylinder n on one side, then from cylinder n in reverse down to cylinder 0 on the other side. Others start at cylinder 0 again. Some formats start on the bottom surface; others on the top. For (a) to (b), just about anything in the address fields will generally work, unless a controller insists on a particular convention. A skew may be built in, so that driver software doesn't have to deal with it. Controllers that can do multisector will benefit from sector addresses that are consecutive by 1, but there's no inherent demand that it will be so. All of which makes talking about cylinder, track and sector on floppies extremely confusing. I try to disambiguate a bit by using the term "physical" to refer to the absolute location of sides and tracks, but use the header ID value to refer to sector numbering. Thus, if the first sector on a track is addressed as 129, I'll talk about sector 129, not sector 0. Cheers, Chuck From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Dec 22 13:51:33 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 11:51:33 -0800 Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036684@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> * Jules Richardson wrote: Out of interest, which is the correct terminology when defining a single point on a disk's surface - is it better to talk in terms of cylinders, or tracks? People often seem to talk about floppy drives in terms of tracks, heads and sectors (e.g. for an 80 cylinder floppy with two sides they'll still talk in terms of tracks 1-80 in conjunction with a side number, even though the media has 160 tracks in total) Talking in terms of cylinders seems to be generally the norm with hard disks though, and perhaps seems a bit more sensible - but remember that hard disk manufacturers are the people who introduced decimal megabytes into common use :-) Personally I prefer to talk in terms of 'surface number' rather than 'head number', as a given surface could conceivably have more than one head in order to improve media latency - but I'm unsure as to whether to use cylinder/surface/sector or track/surface/sector. It's all just semantics, but for the stuff I'm currently working on I'd rather go with the 'correct' version even if that happens not to be the one most commonly used... cheers Jules -------------------------------------------------- Tracks was the original terminology when only one surface was used. For example on some of the early single sided floppies. Cylinders were used to describe a head switch to a new surface. The head switch would be very fast (faster than a one track seek) so continuous data could be recorded on the same track on different surfaces - in effect, a cylinder. So tracks is accurate even on multiple surfaces. But cylinders implies that data is written on all available heads before a seek is performed. With the advent of the embedded servo, tracks no longer line up neatly. A head switch may involve the new head seeking 10-100 tracks to get back to the same track number. Current state of the art is ~150K tracks per inch. So even a small difference is a lot of tracks. And 1 track seeks are now very fast, so it is rare to see controllers doing the cylinder concept. Because the usage and language has changed with time, the use of cylinders versus tracks depends a lot on the vintage of drive and controller. Cylinders were the most efficient way to use an SMD era drive with a dedicated servo surface. But they are performance lagging on today's drives. The amount of data on a track is variable and has been for many years. So the drive is divided into zones, which have a different amount of bits per track for each zone. Drives may have as many as 50 zones, ie 50 different numbers of bits per track. Modern drives often have a different number of tracks on each surface. So a single platter drive could have 2 different track counts, one for each surface. Thus current state of the art drives can have a huge difference in the number of tracks and amount of data on the surfaces. For example, a 100GB single platter drive may have 44GB on one surface and 56GB on the other surface. Because of this, you need a decoder program to even find what track you on. Cylinder and tracks don't have much meaning at the interface level. Consequently, we normally use LBA - Logical Block Address - and don't pay much attention to tracks or cylinders. Except when trying to physically view of certain spot on a disk. Billy From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 22 14:21:39 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 14:21:39 -0600 Subject: HP 2000F' References: <15EDC737436349459458881C284C88DB0170B4@PGCPS2K3EXIS1.pgcps.org> Message-ID: <018e01c72606$cb7a7d10$6500a8c0@BILLING> Mike wrote... > Does ether "kill" or "purge" ring a bell to you, Richard? I hadn't thought of that distinction, perhaps because it lumps everything before access into just one camp. But I think Mike is right here... PUR- in place of KIL- was an Access-ism. Good tip Mike! > I see many people telling wonderful stories about HP2000 systems. If some > of the others could also share with us where the systems were located, > someone else in the group may also remember some of them. Everyone already knows my story ;) In brief... My high school (St. Louis University High School) had an HP2000/E which was later upgraded to C, then to Access. Students had a high degree of access to the system. A course in programming on the HP was required. Some of the math & physics courses had a few weeks of material on the computer too. Class registration/scheduling was done on the computer (with mark sense cards no less). Some teachers did grades on it. It was also used in band classes for teaching music theory. The school also had a PDP-11/03 running RT-11/TSX, and a course in Fortran programming was optional on that machine. The HP had 32 terminals throughout the school. One classroom full of ACT terminals, DEC LA36's (later replaced by LA120's), several terminals in the library, some in the language labs, etc. Of course some in administration offices and the jesuit rectory, and some in the physics department. Most of the HP2000 TSB installations in the area kept in touch and traded programs on a regular basis. Other HP 2000 TSB systems that I know traded programs with us were at Forest Part Community College (St. Louis), Rockhurst High School (Kansas City), and DeSmet Jesuit High School (St. Louis). > The group is a good place to ask support questions about the OS or the > simulation. Here is good too, But perhaps I'm biased :) > On the subject of Z999, I seem to recall that at least some of the systems > before Access even had the HELLO program residing in Z999. As far as I > have seen in the Access source Z999 no longer had any special privelages. I much more familiar with the Access source than the others, and I'm almost certain there is no Z999 expected, nor used in a special way. I am less sure about F and C, but I have recently skimmed the code there and see nothing about it. I could be missing something. I don't think any earlier system had any special use of Z999 either. Every reference I can find back to 2000A is HELLO in A000. If someone has some concrete references to the contrary, I'd love to know about it. > Someone asked about backing up TSB E without a tape drive... I described this in a previous post. Yours goes into more detail, illustrating what I said about it being a pain ;) I use tape :D > The TSB E OS was distributed on two paper tapes, with a third tape for the > loader. Tape 1 was the TSB Loader/Utility, tape 2 was OS tape1, tape 3 was OS tape2. The loader/utility was used every time you boot the system. Also, remember you can load an E system from mag tape as well. > If anyone knows or may be able to track down anyone who may still have an > old HP2000 system back up tape, we would love to hear about it. We have > had great success reading and reloading old tapes under simulation. I'd also like to hear about any tapes, I've had great success reloading them too ;) Jay West From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Dec 22 14:44:15 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 12:44:15 -0800 Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... In-Reply-To: <001b01c725ec$664f6fa0$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <1a7301c72609$f48d4a90$0701a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Barry Watzman Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:13 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Cylinders versus tracks... A Cylinder is not a single point; it's the collection of multiple tracks that are all under the read/write heads whenever the heads are positioned over that cylinder. It exists only because there are multiple heads. However, while a double sided floppy drive does have cylinders, some systems did not take advantage of them and accessed the floppy drive using all of one side first, then all of the other side, rather than using cylinders (rather than tracks) sequentially. Both types of access are possible, and cylinder based access is clearly "better", but not all systems worked that way. ----- I seem to remember DosPlus on trs80 IIRC, and possible LDos referring to the format on a TRS80 as Cyl X Head Y (1,2) as it formatted. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 22 14:55:48 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:55:48 -0000 (GMT) Subject: got a rare 386 CPU In-Reply-To: <458B8902.7040500@msm.umr.edu> References: <458B8902.7040500@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <1393.192.168.0.4.1166820948.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, December 22, 2006 07:28, jim stephens wrote: > this might date from 85 or 86, I would think. I was working on an I2ICE > 386 > at Pick systems in 86, using it for driver development. The 386DX was > around > that time anyway, and would have predated the I2ICE 386 and its bondout > chip. ....but it has (c)91 on it......? -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 22 15:23:21 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 14:23:21 -0700 Subject: HP 2000F' In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 22 Dec 2006 14:21:39 -0600. <018e01c72606$cb7a7d10$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <018e01c72606$cb7a7d10$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > [...] One classroom full of ACT terminals, DEC LA36's (later replaced > by LA120's), several terminals in the library, some in the language labs, > etc. Of course some in administration offices and the jesuit rectory, and > some in the physics department. What's an ACT terminal? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 22 16:21:23 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 22:21:23 -0000 (GMT) Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1435.192.168.0.4.1166826083.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, December 22, 2006 03:57, dwight elvey wrote: > > I also know what made methods were used. It didn't > include a language with type checking or any such methods. > Jef Raskin understood how it was done and did it again > in later products. And I bet people including me didn't predict what it eventually sold for! (I'm not disappointed, I knew it'd be as much as that, I just can't afford that sort of money :)) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 22 16:38:25 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 16:38:25 -0600 Subject: Terminals ( was Re: HP 2000F' ) References: Message-ID: <002501c72619$e74d7700$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard wrote... > What's an ACT terminal? There was a terminal manufacturer located in Saint Louis, MO around the 70's & 80's called "MicroTerm". They made quite a number of terminals that were popular across the US. As it turns out, the folks at MicroTerm had a relationship with my high school (St. Louis University High) such that they often delivered prototype and/or beta terminals free of charge or at a reduced price so that we could test them and give them feedback, find bugs, etc. Some of the terminals they made were called ACT I, ACT II, ACT IV, ACT Va, MIME 1, MIME 2, MIME 340, MIME 420, and Ergo 2000. I'm sure there were others, but those are the ones I have a manual or sales sheet or some other specific proof that they existed. I know for sure that our high school had an ACT IV as the system console (it replaced an ASR 33), and I believe the user terminals were ACT II, ACT V, and MIME 1's. In addition to these microterm terminals, we also had four LA120's and a MiniBee 4. The ACT IV was unlike the others. It was a terminal but had no crt. It had 75ohm video out that was typically hooked to a small 9" monitor. It was available assembled or as a kit. I happen to have one of these - working. With a 9" sanyo monitor, user manual, and service manual with schematics, theory of operation, etc. I would give my left arm for a Mime I or Mime II, or a Minibee 4. Oh, some time ago I looked up the VP of Engineering for MicroTerm. He sent me a nice email talking about his time at MicroTerm and he was glad someone still remembered them and their terminals. He seemed a bit surprised. I asked if he had any hardware or documentation left over, he said no. When I picked up a bunch of stuff a few years back from my high school, I got multiple copies of many of the MicroTerm manuals. I've tried seeing if there's interest in them but no one seems to want 'em. I also have a manual for the MiniBee 4. Jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 22 16:19:51 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 22:19:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... In-Reply-To: <458BD6B7.8040100@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 22, 6 06:59:35 am Message-ID: > > > Out of interest, which is the correct terminology when defining a single point > on a disk's surface - is it better to talk in terms of cylinders, or tracks? I always talk in terms of cylinders, even for a floppy. Well, 'always' apart from calling the home signal on the inteface connector 'Track00' and the write-current-reduction signal on a 8" drive 'Track Greater than 43'. Those names are so well-known (and given in just about every drive service manual) that to call them 'Cyl00' and 'CG43' would just cause confusion. > > People often seem to talk about floppy drives in terms of tracks, heads and > sectors (e.g. for an 80 cylinder floppy with two sides they'll still talk in > terms of tracks 1-80 in conjunction with a side number, even though the media > has 160 tracks in total) One of the most confusion things relating to this was a manual that claimed an IBM PC 360K disk had 80 tracks. It does (in 40 cylinders), but it's still confusing. > > Talking in terms of cylinders seems to be generally the norm with hard disks > though, and perhaps seems a bit more sensible - but remember that hard disk > manufacturers are the people who introduced decimal megabytes into common use :-) > > Personally I prefer to talk in terms of 'surface number' rather than 'head > number', as a given surface could conceivably have more than one head in order Well, if I had a drive with, say, 2 surfaces, 2 heads per surface, and 100 positions those heads could be moved to, I'd probably call it 100 cylinders, 4 heads, since logically it's the same as 4 surfaces with one head per surface. Calling it 200 cylinders, 2 surfaces, while correct, would seem to be as confusing as clalling it 400 tracks -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 22 16:29:48 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 22:29:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: got an HP 9915A computer In-Reply-To: from "9000 VAX" at Dec 22, 6 10:48:42 am Message-ID: > > Haven't decided what to do with it yet. The HP9915 is very similar (elecrornically) to the HP85,. but in a metal case that can be fittied into a rackmount kit. The 3 edge connectors at the abck take the mormal HP85 interfacs, there's are pins on the main PCB insde that act like a built-in ROM Drawer and take HP85 ROMs. There's also an internal PCB that can take EPROMs, and which I believe can be used as a read-only mass storage decice, Tye BNC conenctor on the back is standard TV-rate composite video. The DB25 socket is for a keyboard. That keeyboard is rare (read next-to-impossible to find). But it's just a matrix of swtiches. There are pinouts (and schematics) for the 9915 on the web, the keyboard matrix is the same as the HP85 matrix, and I think the official service manual for that is on the web too. The frontpanel buttons are electically the programamble funciton keys on the keyrboard, and the shift key. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 22 16:06:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 22:06:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Dec 22, 6 11:24:14 am Message-ID: > Haven't seen any analogue hard disk drives recently... I have, I own one... It's a single-platter, multiple fixed head unit. The control electronics causes it to rotate (mains motor with disk+coil eddg current brake) at one revolution per video frame time, and video is stored on the disk using FM analuge recording (like the recording method used in a VCR). Of course it plays pack 3 trakcs simulateously to give colour (RGB) output. The verison I have is called a PPL 121 graphics system for the PDP11, and includes an FM modulator and contorl electronics that links to a DR11-B interface. I am told the technology originated in the 'action replay' recorders used on television. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 22 16:46:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 22:46:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... In-Reply-To: <20061222172440.HOCX22965.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> from "Brian L. Stuart" at Dec 22, 6 11:24:40 am Message-ID: > I'm not sure there is a correct convention. I do know that controller > programming can be a bit weird. The old AT-style controllers on PCs > seemed to want the cylinders and heads numbered from 0 and the > sectors numbered from 1. I don't have any hardware docs with > me at the moment, but that's what I've seen in drivers. As an aside, As I understand it (and I've written programs that talk to the disk controller directly, etc) There are 2 distinct cases when you use the cylinder number. The frst is 'seeking' -- positioning the head. Typically, the controller with have a restore command, which steps the head outwards (towards cylinder 0) until the Tr00 signal is asseted by the drive. At that point the head really is on cylinder 0. There's also a seek command which moves the head to any cylinder. The controller internally stores what it believes is the current cylinder. If you've just done a restore, that value is set to 0. If you then ask the controller to seek to cylinder 3, it steps the head in 3 times (and sets the intenral cylinder value to 3). If you then ask the controller to go to cylinder 2, it steps the head out once, and so on Since there's no absolute cylinder reference other than the Tr00 sensor, there's a check made dureing reading or writing to check you're on the right cylinder. And that's the second time you give the controller the cylindere value. This value is not used to position the head (at least not on a PC floppy controller, some other controllers may well have what's often called an implied seek). Instead it's compared to a value stored in the header of each sector on that track of the disk. If it doesn't match the value in the wanted sector, the controller gives an error. the normal way to recover from that is to a restore (since that puts the heads on a knwon cylinder in hardware), then seek to the desired cylinder again. Note there's no reason why the physical cylinder number (used by seek) and the logical cylinder number (used by read and write) have to be the same. Now, I said 'wnted sector' above. Sectors don't really exist at the hardware level, they're produced by formatting. Each sector has a header, and one of the values in that header is the sector number. The 'wanted sector' is the one where the sector number in the header is equal to the sector number given in the rrad or write command. There is nothing in the hardware which says that sector numbers have to be contiguous -- you could have sectors 2, 27, 50, 51, 89, etc on a track. So really there's no reason to assume that cylinder numbers or sector numbers start at 0 or 1, or any other particular value. > it's fun to try to explain to a class who've only seen sanitized classroom > examples that the real world is filled with stuff like this. That's why > I like to teach OS with code, and not just general principles. And why I like to see hardware taught using schematics of real, working, devices, not the 'simplified' versions shown in some books. -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 22 17:13:50 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 17:13:50 -0600 Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <458C66AE.6070307@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> Personally I prefer to talk in terms of 'surface number' rather than 'head >> number', as a given surface could conceivably have more than one head in order > > Well, if I had a drive with, say, 2 surfaces, 2 heads per surface, and > 100 positions those heads could be moved to, I'd probably call it 100 > cylinders, 4 heads, since logically it's the same as 4 surfaces with one > head per surface. Calling it 200 cylinders, 2 surfaces, while correct, > would seem to be as confusing as clalling it 400 tracks Hmm, that's interesting. I suppose it depends on whether those multiple heads are referenced independently, or whether they're only there to improve latency (and hence from an interfacing point of view you still only reference two surfaces, but the electronics are smart enough to 'use' the head which happens to be nearest to the data that you want) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 22 17:13:49 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 16:13:49 -0700 Subject: Terminals ( was Re: HP 2000F' ) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 22 Dec 2006 16:38:25 -0600. <002501c72619$e74d7700$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: In article <002501c72619$e74d7700$6600a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, "Jay West" writes: > When I picked up a bunch of stuff a few years back from my high school, I > got multiple copies of many of the MicroTerm manuals. I've tried seeing if > there's interest in them but no one seems to want 'em. I also have a manual > for the MiniBee 4. What, its some kind of secret that I have a terminal fetish? :-) Oh! Oh! Oh! Pick me, pick me, pick me! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 22 17:37:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:37:57 -0800 Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... In-Reply-To: References: <20061222172440.HOCX22965.ibm69aec.bellsouth.net@mail.bellsouth.net> from "Brian L. Stuart" at Dec 22, 6 11:24:40 am, Message-ID: <458BFBD5.13258.2714CE3C@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Dec 2006 at 22:46, Tony Duell wrote: > Now, I said 'wnted sector' above. Sectors don't really exist at the > hardware level, they're produced by formatting. Each sector has a header, > and one of the values in that header is the sector number. The 'wanted > sector' is the one where the sector number in the header is equal to the > sector number given in the rrad or write command. There is nothing in the > hardware which says that sector numbers have to be contiguous -- you could > have sectors 2, 27, 50, 51, 89, etc on a track. I assume that you mean consecutive. :) Requires, no--but if you ever want to do multi-sector transfers, you'd better have sector numbers that are consecutive--that's how the controller knows what to look for after it's transferred one sector. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Dec 22 18:11:00 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 16:11:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061222155703.F30182@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 22 Dec 2006, Tony Duell wrote: > Well, if I had a drive with, say, 2 surfaces, 2 heads per surface, and > 100 positions those heads could be moved to, I'd probably call it 100 > cylinders, 4 heads, since logically it's the same as 4 surfaces with one > head per surface. Calling it 200 cylinders, 2 surfaces, while correct, > would seem to be as confusing as clalling it 400 tracks I have a Seagate drive (225?) with a clear plastic cover (trade show demo drive). It appears to have 17 sectors per track, 610? cylinders, 4 heads, but only one platter! The computer treats it as if it had 2 platters, with one head on each side of each platter. On each side of the single platter, there are two heads! One head "homes" (cylinder 0) near the outer edge, and the other homes halfway to the middle. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Dec 22 18:12:03 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 16:12:03 -0800 Subject: got a rare 386 CPU In-Reply-To: <1393.192.168.0.4.1166820948.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <458B8902.7040500@msm.umr.edu> <1393.192.168.0.4.1166820948.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <458C7453.20502@msm.umr.edu> Witchy wrote: > On Fri, December 22, 2006 07:28, jim stephens wrote: > > ....but it has (c)91 on it......? That was why I mentioned I worked on the DX version, which was the first version. I don't have any lineage information on the 386's or specifications as to what made for a 386E, but that is what was in the photo. It does appear to be an early ceramic carrier version FWIW. Jim From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Dec 22 18:17:14 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 16:17:14 -0800 Subject: Terminals ( was Re: HP 2000F' ) In-Reply-To: <002501c72619$e74d7700$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <002501c72619$e74d7700$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <458C758A.1000401@msm.umr.edu> Jay West wrote: > Richard wrote... >> What's an ACT terminal? > > There was a terminal manufacturer located in Saint Louis, MO > ACT IV, > When I picked up a bunch of stuff a few years back from my high > school, I got multiple copies of many of the MicroTerm manuals. I've > tried seeing if there's interest in them but no one seems to want 'em. > I also have a manual for the MiniBee 4. > > Jay West I had an ACT4 which worked quite well, and it may still be in my pile? I don't recall what I did with it as I got into other terminals that I had to support. I modified the Pick terminal drivers to run it, and it was my system console for a long time as well. I recall paying about $400 for it or so, and was glad to get it in a time of $1200 ADM3's and multi thousand dollar "real" terminals. Adds terminals when available were not that much, but were rare as they were pretty standard on all systems. Please get Al K to scan them, or send them to me, I have a scanner and would scan them for him when I get started. I hope to do a lot of scanning here in january. Jim From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 22 18:27:06 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:27:06 -0600 (CST) Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer Message-ID: <200612230027.kBN0R4Rg011818@keith.ezwind.net> --- Brent Hilpert wrote: > Billy Pettit wrote: > > **>> snip <<** > > I have a web page > (http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/gates/index.html) > where I'm accumulating the diversity of symbols th at > have been used for > logic gates. If you have a scan or reference for t he > Cray/6600 symbols I'd be > interested in adding them. > Thanks for posting that. Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 22 19:21:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 17:21:00 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <458C13FC.32057.27732785@cclist.sydex.com> Well, let's not forget a powerful marketing force--FEATURES, whether you use them or not. I certainly know of folks who buy everything from microwave ovens to mobile phones based on the number of offered features, whether or not they will ever use them. Why, for instance does my local telco charge for Caller ID? It's certainly not costing them anything to implement. Why does the same telco give me MSN premium with my DSL service when all I really want is an IP address? Because it's a perceived feature--and they can charge for it. My kitchen microwave oven is loaded with features. I've never used any of them beyond the basic timed cook. I suspect a fair percentage of purchasers would be happy with the "1 minute" and "Popcorn" buttons. In both cases, we need a new word, say "faux-tures" for "it doesn't cost anything to provide this functionality". A REAL feature in the above-mentioned microwave would be a stainless steel or PTFE-coated interior instead of the usual miserable Chinese epoxy paint. That'll cost ya. Cheers, Chuck From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Dec 22 14:46:57 2006 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:46:57 +0000 Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... In-Reply-To: <458C66AE.6070307@yahoo.co.uk> References: Message-ID: <20061223014136.KMGC24907.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Personally I prefer to talk in terms of 'surface number' rather than 'head > >> number', as a given surface could conceivably have more than one head in order > > > > Well, if I had a drive with, say, 2 surfaces, 2 heads per surface, and > > 100 positions those heads could be moved to, I'd probably call it 100 > > cylinders, 4 heads, since logically it's the same as 4 surfaces with one > > head per surface. Calling it 200 cylinders, 2 surfaces, while correct, > > would seem to be as confusing as clalling it 400 tracks > > Hmm, that's interesting. I suppose it depends on whether those multiple heads > are referenced independently, or whether they're only there to improve latency > (and hence from an interfacing point of view you still only reference two > surfaces, but the electronics are smart enough to 'use' the head which happens > to be nearest to the data that you want) I had a ST412, didn't remember the exact model close enough, not the full height type, that had one platter, 4 heads. Two heads per side. Fe oxide (orange platter). Cheers, Wizard From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Dec 22 20:06:11 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:06:11 -0800 Subject: got a rare 386 CPU In-Reply-To: <458C7453.20502@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <1aa501c72636$eb132b60$0701a8c0@liberator> Need to take a couple pictures, I have some P-4 prototype CPUs. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 22 20:24:31 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:24:31 -0800 Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* In-Reply-To: <1435.192.168.0.4.1166826083.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi I've gathered a bunch of information for the Cat and expect to get this put up on Bruce's DigiBarn page. It is a bit much for a post and is better on a web page. The one thing I was looking for, the ability to reconfigure printer esc sequences, I found. One could, using this information, configure the Cat for most any printer. I've not tried it yet. My HP 3si has a bad supply but I hope to get things running again soon so I can test things out. It does look relatively straight forward to change the strings. I've left my email address with the seller of the Canon Cat so I hope the buyer contacts me. Dwight >From: "Witchy" > > >On Fri, December 22, 2006 03:57, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > I also know what made methods were used. It didn't > > include a language with type checking or any such methods. > > Jef Raskin understood how it was done and did it again > > in later products. > >And I bet people including me didn't predict what it eventually sold for! > >(I'm not disappointed, I knew it'd be as much as that, I just can't afford >that sort of money :)) > >-- >adrian/witchy >Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? _________________________________________________________________ The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/ From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Dec 22 20:23:55 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:23:55 -0600 Subject: high school and timesharing In-Reply-To: <003601c7256e$7ca3d350$6401a8c0@wtr.local> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061221181358.0d5feec8@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061222201720.0d4e5d10@localhost> At 09:11 PM 12/21/2006 -0500, you wrote: > > OMG, that's about exactly the same arrangement we had at my > > high school- a buncha ASR-33's timesharing on the Globe Union > > machine (before we bought their PDP-8). > > > > We discovered that you could deposit about 3 words from the > > console, one of which might have been the WHO IOT, and lo! > > the user's ID and password (!) would be dumped into memory in > > RAD50 (I think??) where you could easily read them back and > > decode to ASCII at your leisure. > > > > When I got to UWM, I discovered that the trick had been > > foiled by Dick Bartlein (or was it Sam Milosevich??) > > rewriting parts of TSS/8 to make it much more secure. > > > >Wow, Tom, are you a Nicolet HS alumnus? From looking in my yearbooks I'm Yup. >guessing class of '78? I was class of '76 and spent both semesters of my Class of 78 is exactly right. >senior year in computer independent study so I spent a lot of time on that >8/e (ex-Globe Union that was purchased by Nicolet in the summer of '75). >Almost finished a PAL-D decomplier before I graduated. I then also went to >UWM and got to work on their Edusystem 50 too. I remember renting a table The Edusystem was gone by the time I got there. I worked on the PDP/8e and later the VAX. >top ASR33 and dialing into the UWM system from home. I did something similar, but I heisted a hazeltine terminal from the lab (Dr. Levine said I could.) >One of these days I need to post an introduction of myself to this list. I >have conversed with several DECies on here so some have seen pictures of my >project. I am working on assembling all of the pieces to duplicate the >Nicolet HS Edusystem 50 and hope to get TSS/8 running on it someday. I want >to do a website documenting my project but for now everyone can see it here: > >http://www.frappr.com/?a=myfrappr&id=844769 > >Everything in this system has been accumulated separately. It appears my >biggest stumbling block to getting TSS/8 running is finding a working >RF08/RS08. That's why I have the two RK05Js. I'm hoping I can somehow >re-write TSS/8 to run off of an RK05. I've got a lot of studying and >relearning to do before that happens. I'm still working on the >cleaning/cosmetic restoration right now. The bay above the 8/e is waiting >for the PC04 on my workbench. Then it will be time to reform caps, configure >boards, start powering things up and get OS/8 running as a start. Don't let the smoke out! >Tom, if you have any original pictures of the Nicolet system I would love to >see them. I have written the HS and they have been no help in finding any >pictures of it. I visited there last year for their 50th anniversary and saw >the 'closet' (rather small room) it used to live in down in the F wing >library. I remember its configuration was a little different than DEC would >have normally done. The TU56s/TC08 were in the left rack with the RF08/RS08 >in the center. I have my DECTape from the PDP/8e at UWM. I have no idea if it's still readable. All I had on it were BASIC programs and one or two assembler programs I cobbled up. I may have a photo from NHS somewhere. I can't remember how the racks were arranged. That was a LONG time ago. >I was pleasantly surprised to find a copy of the UWM TSS/8 Users Guide on >bitsavers recently. I must have some of that stuff in my storage locker. I'll have to check. >Jon Miles Any relation to Mary Miles, and her younger (?) sister? [Philosophy] Experience is the worst teacher. It always gives the test first and the instruction afterward. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Dec 22 22:11:26 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 23:11:26 -0500 Subject: got an HP 9915A computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/22/06, 9000 VAX wrote: > > Haven't decided what to do with it yet. > Got a DEC VT240, no monitor, no keyboard. free for shipping. > VT240 is claimed. Got a VAXSTATION 3100 model VS42??, there is a crack on the face panel. > Looks good other than that crack. No disks. Free for shipping. > > vax, 9000 > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 23 05:33:27 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 05:33:27 -0600 Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... In-Reply-To: <20061222155703.F30182@shell.lmi.net> References: <20061222155703.F30182@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <458D1407.1050007@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 22 Dec 2006, Tony Duell wrote: >> Well, if I had a drive with, say, 2 surfaces, 2 heads per surface, and >> 100 positions those heads could be moved to, I'd probably call it 100 >> cylinders, 4 heads, since logically it's the same as 4 surfaces with one >> head per surface. Calling it 200 cylinders, 2 surfaces, while correct, >> would seem to be as confusing as clalling it 400 tracks > > I have a Seagate drive (225?) with a clear plastic cover (trade show demo > drive). It appears to have 17 sectors per track, 610? cylinders, 4 heads, > but only one platter! The computer treats it as if it had 2 platters, > with one head on each side of each platter. > On each side of the single platter, there are two heads! > One head "homes" (cylinder 0) near the outer edge, and the other homes > halfway to the middle. You know, I never realised that it was done on such 'consumer grade' drives. I suppose the question is whether any such drive with multiple heads per platter allows the user to control them independently, or whether the number of data surfaces (along with cylinders and sectors) is what's exposed to the user. Doubtless there are some oddball systems that might drive the heads individually (such as the video replay system that Tony has), but I suspect that for typical computer storage systems geometry is expressed in terms of surfaces even for a drive that has multiple heads per surface. Of course, I can just make an executive decision and say I'm not supporting any device in my software which can't be fitted into the cylinders / surfaces / sectors paradigm (I've already decided that I don't want to go near anything that has a varying block size [1] - although I can't see a problem with variable sectors per cylinder) [1] I can't think of anything that does vary the block size on a device according to position; nor does it really make sense to do so from an OS point of view - but doubtless there's some systems out there that do :) cheers Jules From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat Dec 23 10:26:57 2006 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 11:26:57 -0500 Subject: Free: Kennedy Tape drive and rack Message-ID: <200612231627.kBNGR0vj006297@mail.itm-inst.com> I've got a Kennedy 9000 9-track tension-arm tape drive (800/1600 bpi dual density) installed in a 5-foot tall rack. The rack has side and back panels as well as some covers for the front. The drive was working a few years ago so it's complete but I have no idea if it's still OK. I've got the documentation including print sets, etc. It's available free for pickup in the Fairfax county Virginia area. We'll need to remove the drive from the rack to get it out of the basement unless you bring some help :-) -Rick From jvdg at sparcpark.net Sat Dec 23 12:46:17 2006 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 19:46:17 +0100 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <11f801c72551$75f3d040$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: On 12/21/06 11:43 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> It's also amazing how many people don't realise that Philips made computers. >> Or eduactional kits (electronics and mechanics). > > I have some here, a VG8235 (MSX 2.0) and a Odyssey? (known in Brazil just as > "odyssey")...very good machines these philips :D Look inside your VG8235. You'll find that Philips' MSX computers were actually made by Sanyo. ,xtG .tsooJ -- Early to rise, Early to bed, Makes a man healthy, But socially dead. -- Joost van de Griek From jrr at flippers.com Sat Dec 23 11:32:15 2006 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 09:32:15 -0800 Subject: 1702 EPROM's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks to Brent here in BC now I can also program 1702A's in Canada. I also have a device to read and archive these suckers into binary files. So if anyone in Canada would like to get their 1702s copied or simply archived please let me know. I'm not as cheap as Ancor though - I charge $10 to make an archive and/or $10 to make a copy onto your blank 1702 - just might be more convenient for Canadians. John :-#)# John's Jukes Ltd. Vancouver BC www.flippers.com At 2:38 PM -0800 12/10/06, John Robertson wrote: >At 9:30 AM -0500 12/10/06, Fixer7526 at wmconnect.com wrote: >>Hello, >> >> Would you please post the following message. >> >> I am looking for someone who can copy 1702 EPROM's. Contact me at >>Fixer7526 at wmconnect.com . >> >> Thanks, >> >> Alan >> > >There is a company in San Francisco that copies 1702s very inexpensively. > > http://www.demoboard.com/anchor.htm > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> They are located at: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Anchor Electronics >>>>>>> 2040 Walsh Ave >>>>>>> Santa Clara, Ca 95050 >>>>>>> (408) 727-3693 > >John :-#)# From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 23 14:31:27 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 13:31:27 -0700 Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone know if its possible to have multiple CGA cards on an ISA bus? I have a feeling the answer is no... If the answer is no, can anyone recommend a good set of docs on the bus interface of a CGA (memory mapped regions, relevant BIOS vectors, ISA bus transactions, etc.)? I have a project where I want to gang drive a group of CGA displays. Initially my thoughts were to just have N computers with CGA cards and gang drive the computers over a serial port. However, lately the talk of hardware on this list has got me thinking that it might be better to create a single FPGA implementation that gang drove N cards directly and dropped the machines in the middle. I'm thinking that on standard ISA bus only a single CGA card could be present because its vectors and memory map are fixed and not relocatable. So I'd need to gang up the cards by creating my own motherboard with ISA card edge connectors where each card thinks it is the only thing on the bus and then select individual cards and drive them with the FPGA. Things that would help me in this project are: - detailed information about the CGA video card, both electrically and software wise. - detailed electrical information about ISA bus cycles - existing FPGA designs that might have useful building blocks I could steal: ISA bus cycles, CGA implementation, etc. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Dec 23 15:25:19 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 13:25:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Dec 2006, Richard wrote: > Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 13:31:27 -0700 > From: Richard > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? > > Hi, > > Does anyone know if its possible to have multiple CGA cards on an ISA > bus? I have a feeling the answer is no... Probably without surgery most CGA cards would have fixed memory and I/O addresses... > > If the answer is no, can anyone recommend a good set of docs on the > bus interface of a CGA (memory mapped regions, relevant BIOS vectors, > ISA bus transactions, etc.)? > > I have a project where I want to gang drive a group of CGA displays. > Initially my thoughts were to just have N computers with CGA cards and > gang drive the computers over a serial port. > > However, lately the talk of hardware on this list has got me thinking > that it might be better to create a single FPGA implementation that > gang drove N cards directly and dropped the machines in the middle. Hardly needs a FPGA, just decode /IOR /IOW /MEMR /MEMW with 4 1-8 decoders (maybe 74F138s). Then use a 3 bit latch to drive the decoder select lines that select the card. You could do some fancier things with a CPLD (have a bit mask to do the write gating, allowing you to write to multiple selected cards at once) Shouldnt be more than 7 or so TTL chips or a single ~2.00 CPLD > > I'm thinking that on standard ISA bus only a single CGA card could be > present because its vectors and memory map are fixed and not > relocatable. So I'd need to gang up the cards by creating my own > motherboard with ISA card edge connectors where each card thinks it is > the only thing on the bus and then select individual cards and drive > them with the FPGA. > > Things that would help me in this project are: > > - detailed information about the CGA video card, > both electrically and software wise. > > - detailed electrical information about ISA bus cycles > > - existing FPGA designs that might have useful building blocks I could > steal: ISA bus cycles, CGA implementation, etc. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Dec 23 15:29:45 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 13:29:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Dec 2006, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 13:25:19 -0800 (PST) > From: Peter C. Wallace > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? > > On Sat, 23 Dec 2006, Richard wrote: > >> Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 13:31:27 -0700 >> From: Richard >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? >> >> Hi, >> >> Does anyone know if its possible to have multiple CGA cards on an ISA >> bus? I have a feeling the answer is no... > > Probably without surgery most CGA cards would have fixed memory and I/O > addresses... > >> >> If the answer is no, can anyone recommend a good set of docs on the >> bus interface of a CGA (memory mapped regions, relevant BIOS vectors, >> ISA bus transactions, etc.)? >> >> I have a project where I want to gang drive a group of CGA displays. >> Initially my thoughts were to just have N computers with CGA cards and >> gang drive the computers over a serial port. >> >> However, lately the talk of hardware on this list has got me thinking >> that it might be better to create a single FPGA implementation that >> gang drove N cards directly and dropped the machines in the middle. > > Hardly needs a FPGA, just decode /IOR /IOW /MEMR /MEMW with 4 1-8 decoders > (maybe 74F138s). Then use a 3 bit latch to drive the decoder select lines > that select the card. You could do some fancier things with a CPLD (have a > bit mask to do the write gating, allowing you to write to multiple selected > cards at once) > > Shouldnt be more than 7 or so TTL chips or a single ~2.00 CPLD > On second thought, it may require only AEN to be decoded so maybe 3 or 4 ttl parts... > >> >> I'm thinking that on standard ISA bus only a single CGA card could be >> present because its vectors and memory map are fixed and not >> relocatable. So I'd need to gang up the cards by creating my own >> motherboard with ISA card edge connectors where each card thinks it is >> the only thing on the bus and then select individual cards and drive >> them with the FPGA. >> >> Things that would help me in this project are: >> >> - detailed information about the CGA video card, >> both electrically and software wise. >> >> - detailed electrical information about ISA bus cycles >> >> - existing FPGA designs that might have useful building blocks I could >> steal: ISA bus cycles, CGA implementation, etc. >> -- >> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download >> >> >> Legalize Adulthood! >> > > Peter Wallace > Mesa Electronics > > (\__/) > (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your > (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 23 15:20:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 21:20:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... In-Reply-To: <458BFBD5.13258.2714CE3C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 22, 6 03:37:57 pm Message-ID: > > On 22 Dec 2006 at 22:46, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Now, I said 'wnted sector' above. Sectors don't really exist at the > > hardware level, they're produced by formatting. Each sector has a header, > > and one of the values in that header is the sector number. The 'wanted > > sector' is the one where the sector number in the header is equal to the > > sector number given in the rrad or write command. There is nothing in the > > hardware which says that sector numbers have to be contiguous -- you could > > have sectors 2, 27, 50, 51, 89, etc on a track. > > I assume that you mean consecutive. :) Indeed I do. > > Requires, no--but if you ever want to do multi-sector transfers, > you'd better have sector numbers that are consecutive--that's how the > controller knows what to look for after it's transferred one sector. And on systems that support implied seeks you'd better have the physical and logical cylinder numbers the same for much the same reason. Some backup-prevention schemes [1] back in the 8-bit days used tricks like that so the standard copy programs couldn't copy the disk. [1] THe official name was 'copy protection' of course, but the only people to be really affected by such schemes were legitimate users who couldn't keep backups. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 23 15:32:35 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 21:32:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 23, 6 01:31:27 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > Does anyone know if its possible to have multiple CGA cards on an ISA > bus? I have a feeling the answer is no... THe answer is 'no' if you're talking about standard CGA cards. The CGA card takes up a block of memory space for the video memory (16K IIRC), and a number of I/O port addresses for things like the status register , 6845 CRT controller, etc. On a standard CGA card the addresses of all that stuff is fixed in hardwree, so obviously if you put 2 cards into the same machine there's no way to select them independantly. > > If the answer is no, can anyone recommend a good set of docs on the > bus interface of a CGA (memory mapped regions, relevant BIOS vectors, > ISA bus transactions, etc.)? The manuals you want are the IBM PC Technical References. Either an old-version PC, XT, or AT TechRef (which cover the expansion cards as well), or the Options and Adapters Techref (which certainly convers the CGA card). That will include full schemaitcs of the card, along with programming info, etc. The ISA bus is very similar to the 8088 bus, so an Intel databook and the motherboard scheamtics (in the system techrefs) will help there. And the system techrefs also include BIOS source listings (including the CGA driver routines). Unforutnately I have no idea where to find this stuff now ('On the bookshelf at the top of the stairs', while true, is not helpful to you). -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 23 16:36:05 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 14:36:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: multiple cga cards Message-ID: <491435.6866.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> the Peanut used some sort of gate array to make the vid memory appear as it were in cga space to the warez, but was actually deep down low IIRC. If that helps.. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From richardlynch3 at comcast.net Sat Dec 23 16:53:13 2006 From: richardlynch3 at comcast.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:53:13 -0600 Subject: Remex PT board unibus or q-bus? Message-ID: Does anyone know if the Remex paper tape reader/punch interface board for PDP-11 marked "109831" is unibus or q-bus? Is it generic enough to work in any PDP-11 with that bus? Thanks, Richard Lynch From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 23 17:04:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 15:04:57 -0800 Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <458D4599.30301.2C1CF49A@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Dec 2006 at 13:31, Richard wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone know if its possible to have multiple CGA cards on an ISA > bus? I have a feeling the answer is no... No, but I suspect with a few cuts and jumpers (and maybe without extra "glue") it might be possible. The CGA maps its display buffer into physical address B8000-BDFFF. One could change the mapping to E0000-E3FFF by swapping A18 and A15. Likewise, the CGA I/O range is basically 03Dx, so juxtaposing A8 and A5 would turn this into 2Fx. What do you all think? Cheers, Chuck From jmiles007 at iquest.net Sat Dec 23 17:10:47 2006 From: jmiles007 at iquest.net (Jon Miles) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 18:10:47 -0500 Subject: high school and timesharing In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061222201720.0d4e5d10@localhost> Message-ID: <005701c726e7$9492fbb0$6401a8c0@wtr.local> > I have my DECTape from the PDP/8e at UWM. I have no idea if > it's still readable. All I had on it were BASIC programs and > one or two assembler programs I cobbled up. I may have a > photo from NHS somewhere. > > I can't remember how the racks were arranged. That was a LONG > time ago. Any pictures would be greatly appreciated! > > Any relation to Mary Miles, and her younger (?) sister? > Nope, although my brother Chris was a year behind you at NHS. Jon From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 23 17:29:49 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 15:29:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? Message-ID: <719232.60537.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> its too painful at times :%. But the question comes up what software is intended to run on this amalgamation...off the shelf or custom... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 23 17:30:30 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 15:30:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? Message-ID: <128951.7851.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> its too painful at times :%. But the question comes up what software is intended to run on this amalgamation...off the shelf or custom... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 23 17:36:56 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 15:36:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061223153134.O71413@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 23 Dec 2006, Richard wrote: > Does anyone know if its possible to have multiple CGA cards on an ISA > bus? I have a feeling the answer is no... You're right, but they can be modified > If the answer is no, can anyone recommend a good set of docs on the > bus interface of a CGA (memory mapped regions, relevant BIOS vectors, > ISA bus transactions, etc.)? PC, XT, or AT Technical reference manual It has schematics, and source code for the BIOS. You'll need to change the address of the Video RAM (currently at B800, but A000 to b800 is available, unless you also have MDA, EGA, or VGA in the machine), and the ports for the board. > I have a project where I want to gang drive a group of CGA displays. > Initially my thoughts were to just have N computers with CGA cards and > gang drive the computers over a serial port. comparable price, and less work, more bulk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 23 17:51:35 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 23:51:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Remex PT board unibus or q-bus? In-Reply-To: from "Richard Lynch" at Dec 23, 6 04:53:13 pm Message-ID: > > Does anyone know if the Remex paper tape reader/punch interface board for > PDP-11 marked "109831" is unibus or q-bus? Is it generic enough to work in Does it have a Unibus-style bus request/grant sleection jumper plug? Can you trace out a few tracks to see if Unibus or Qbus grant lines are jumpered? > any PDP-11 with that bus? I would think so. My guess is that it emulates a PC11 (almost all paper tape interfaces for the PDP11 do), and that's a very simple interface. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 23 17:57:34 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:57:34 -0700 Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 23 Dec 2006 15:29:49 -0800. <719232.60537.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <719232.60537.qm at web61013.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > its too painful at times :%. But the question comes up > what software is intended to run on this > amalgamation...off the shelf or custom... Custom hardware = custom software too, generally speaking :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From sellam at vintagetech.com Sat Dec 23 18:25:38 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 16:25:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weird disk drive Message-ID: I've got the weirdest disk drive ever. It's a standard 5.25" mounted inside a factory made metal enclosure. It has a fixed power cord coming out the back with a power switch. Inside is a simple power supply (transformer and a couple regulators and capacitors) that puts out +5V and +12V. There's a power connector going into the disk drive power socket. Here's the weird part: there is no data cable. There is no port or connector or anything on the enclosure for a data cable. There's not even a cut-out for a data cable. It's basically just a disk drive that powers up and spins if you put a disk in it. I initially thoughtt that it must be a degausser or something, but there's nothing inside that would indicate any such operation. OK, I admit it. I'm stumped. No markings on the enclosure anywhere. Any ideas? Responses copied to me directly would be appreciated. Otherwise, I'll follow any follw-up thread in the archives. Happy Holidays!! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 23 19:06:01 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 17:06:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weird disk drive Message-ID: <20061224010602.2573.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> a picture would be nice. Can the enclosure accept 2 drives? If so do they sit vertically? Whats the model # of the drive itself? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Dec 23 19:17:44 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 19:17:44 -0600 Subject: Weird disk drive References: Message-ID: <009f01c726f9$525ae7f0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote.... > Here's the weird part: there is no data cable. There is no port or > connector or anything on the enclosure for a data cable. There's not even > a cut-out for a data cable. I have seen a number of small drive inclosures that do have a "port" for a ribbon cable, but it's very difficult to see at first blush. In these cases, there is a section of the metal around the back that is ever so slightly indented or sometimes it's just polished on the inside so that it's not so sharp for a section roughly as wide as the ribbon. So the ribbon cable hangs out the back and when you put the cover on the case it also acts as a stress relief. Is it possible if you take the cover off that this is the issue? Jay West From sellam at vintagetech.com Sat Dec 23 19:28:44 2006 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 17:28:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Weird disk drive In-Reply-To: <009f01c726f9$525ae7f0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <009f01c726f9$525ae7f0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Dec 2006, Jay West wrote: > I have seen a number of small drive inclosures that do have a "port" for a > ribbon cable, but it's very difficult to see at first blush. In these cases, > there is a section of the metal around the back that is ever so slightly > indented or sometimes it's just polished on the inside so that it's not so > sharp for a section roughly as wide as the ribbon. So the ribbon cable hangs > out the back and when you put the cover on the case it also acts as a stress > relief. Is it possible if you take the cover off that this is the issue? Hey Jay! Nope, it has nothing of the sort. No slots anywhere, except for the heat vents in the back by the power supply. I suppose one could run a cable between the chassis base and the enclosure cover, but it's awful tight. In fact, there's no gap at all, but a cable could theoretically fit between the base and the cover (and provide strain relief) but there's nothing to indicate that was the intent. But perhaps that *was* the intent? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From evan at snarc.net Sat Dec 23 20:13:35 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 21:13:35 -0500 Subject: Weird disk drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004701c72701$1e814f70$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Maybe it's one of them wireless drives. :) -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail [mailto:sellam at vintagetech.com] Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:29 PM To: Jay West Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Weird disk drive On Sat, 23 Dec 2006, Jay West wrote: > I have seen a number of small drive inclosures that do have a "port" > for a ribbon cable, but it's very difficult to see at first blush. In > these cases, there is a section of the metal around the back that is > ever so slightly indented or sometimes it's just polished on the > inside so that it's not so sharp for a section roughly as wide as the > ribbon. So the ribbon cable hangs out the back and when you put the > cover on the case it also acts as a stress relief. Is it possible if you take the cover off that this is the issue? Hey Jay! Nope, it has nothing of the sort. No slots anywhere, except for the heat vents in the back by the power supply. I suppose one could run a cable between the chassis base and the enclosure cover, but it's awful tight. In fact, there's no gap at all, but a cable could theoretically fit between the base and the cover (and provide strain relief) but there's nothing to indicate that was the intent. But perhaps that *was* the intent? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Dec 23 20:26:52 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 21:26:52 -0500 Subject: All I want for Christmas is ... Message-ID: <200612232126.52521.pat@computer-refuge.org> A new mainframe. :) http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/s390/mp2003/ Happy holidays to all! Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sat Dec 23 20:29:31 2006 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 13:29:31 +1100 Subject: Weird disk drive References: <004701c72701$1e814f70$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <011101c72703$59789b90$0100a8c0@pentium> > -----Original Message----- > From: Sellam Ismail [mailto:sellam at vintagetech.com] > Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:29 PM > To: Jay West > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Weird disk drive > I suppose one could run a cable between the chassis base and the enclosure > cover, but it's awful tight. In fact, there's no gap at all, but a cable > could theoretically fit between the base and the cover (and provide strain > relief) but there's nothing to indicate that was the intent. But perhaps > that *was* the intent? I had something similar going back a few years now - was for a TRS-80 & the cable was firmly wedged between the joins in the case. Wonder if it's another one of these ? Lance // http://www.commodore128.org Commodore 128 forums & more! // From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Dec 23 20:51:10 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 20:51:10 -0600 Subject: Weird disk drive In-Reply-To: References: <009f01c726f9$525ae7f0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <458DEB1E.6020708@mdrconsult.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sat, 23 Dec 2006, Jay West wrote: > > Nope, it has nothing of the sort. No slots anywhere, except for the heat > vents in the back by the power supply. > > I suppose one could run a cable between the chassis base and the enclosure > cover, but it's awful tight. In fact, there's no gap at all, but a cable > could theoretically fit between the base and the cover (and provide strain > relief) but there's nothing to indicate that was the intent. But perhaps > that *was* the intent? I saw a beige drive box a couple of years ago that looked exactly as you describe, with, IIRC, an ESDI drive in it. The data cable ran between the rear bulkhead and the cover. I remember thinking that it was somebody's screwed-up hardware hack, but there really was nowhere else for it to go. The fit was like so: Top Cover _____________________________ --------------------------------------- / ____ Ribbon Cable / \ -------/ | | Back bulkhead | There wasn't any indentation, extra curl, or other provision in the metalwork for that cable. Doc From richardlynch3 at comcast.net Sat Dec 23 21:00:20 2006 From: richardlynch3 at comcast.net (Richard Lynch) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 21:00:20 -0600 Subject: Remex PT board unibus or q-bus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 12/23/06 5:51 PM, Tony Duell at ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >> >> Does anyone know if the Remex paper tape reader/punch interface board for >> PDP-11 marked "109831" is unibus or q-bus? > > Does it have a Unibus-style bus request/grant sleection jumper plug? > > Can you trace out a few tracks to see if Unibus or Qbus grant lines are > jumpered? > Unfortunately I don't have the card yet or I'd give that a try. I'll see if the seller will send some detailed pics. Richard From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Dec 23 21:24:23 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 19:24:23 -0800 Subject: Claude Shannon's "spooky hand in a box" toy Message-ID: <458DF2E7.F0B2C99@cs.ubc.ca> It being the frivolous season, a memory came to mind of Claude Shannon's "spooky hand in a box" toy, or which apparently was sometimes called the "Ultimate Machine". For those not already guffawing in an "I remember that" moment, here's a description pilfered while I was searching the web: Arthur C. Clarke in 'Voice Across the Sea': "Nothing could be simpler. It is merely a small wooden casket, the size and shape of a cigar box, with a single switch on one face. When you throw the switch, there is an angry, purposeful buzzing. The lid slowly rises, and from beneath it emerges a hand. The hand reaches down, turns the switch off and retreats into the box. With the finality of a closing coffin, the lid snaps shut, the buzzing ceases and peace reigns once more. The psychological effect, if you do not know what to expect, is devastating. There is something unspeakably sinister about a machine that does nothing -- absolutely nothing -- except switch itself off." (The one I remember was a plain black cube, not a coffin.) It was a popular gimmick-toy / party-amusement in the sixties (I think I saw it at Xmas/New Years time), but I haven't seen, heard or remembered it for decades. I'm just curious whether they are still being made or are they all gone, except perchance to find one at a garage sale (ebay?)? Is this recognisable to anyone younger than ~35, or is it a forgotten amusement from the past? What does this have to with computing? As stated it was devised by Claude Shannon, in discussion with Marvin Minsky, and that should be enough, but I'd also guess that it came out of thinking about things like the halting problem, minimal machines, etc. (a machine that does nothing but halt itself...). (Every computing museum should have an original one.) From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Dec 23 21:55:34 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 19:55:34 -0800 Subject: All I want for Christmas is ... In-Reply-To: <200612232126.52521.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200612232126.52521.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200612231955.34595.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Saturday 23 December 2006 18:26, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > A new mainframe. :) > > http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/s390/mp2003/ Congratulations! A great find and a wonderful Christmas "Toy"!!! Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Dec 23 23:41:34 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2006 21:41:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Claude Shannon's "spooky hand in a box" toy In-Reply-To: <458DF2E7.F0B2C99@cs.ubc.ca> References: <458DF2E7.F0B2C99@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Dec 2006, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I'm just curious whether they are still being made or are they all gone, > except perchance to find one at a garage sale (ebay?)? Is this > recognisable to anyone younger than ~35, or is it a forgotten amusement > from the past? There still is a variation of this in which a coin is placed in a niche in front of a trap door. Angry buzzing is heard and a hand comes out of the trap door and pulls the coin inside. Google for ("magic hand" bank) and you'll find several websites selling it. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Dec 24 03:16:22 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 01:16:22 -0800 Subject: Someone selling off dec disk packs before system Message-ID: <458E4566.6020801@msm.umr.edu> A seller on ebay is selling of the media while he / she claims to be in possession of the system as well, I assume for those who admire "disk packs" or such. Anyone interested might want to look in on the RK05 listed, and the 5 platter disk pack listed. seller: wvrunner rk05 auction number:220063749828 look under "view sellers other auctions" for the other pack, and maybe keep an eye on this guy. Merry Christmas to all Jim From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Dec 24 03:11:18 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 09:11:18 +0000 Subject: Weird disk drive In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 23 Dec 2006 19:17:44 CST." <009f01c726f9$525ae7f0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200612240911.JAA13485@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jat West said: > Sellam wrote.... > > Here's the weird part: there is no data cable. There is no port or > > connector or anything on the enclosure for a data cable. There's not even > > a cut-out for a data cable. > > I have seen a number of small drive inclosures that do have a "port" for a > ribbon cable, but it's very difficult to see at first blush. In these cases, > there is a section of the metal around the back that is ever so slightly > indented or sometimes it's just polished on the inside so that it's not so > sharp for a section roughly as wide as the ribbon. So the ribbon cable hangs > out the back and when you put the cover on the case it also acts as a stress > relief. Is it possible if you take the cover off that this is the issue? I have one like that (somewhere), it was sold as a third party add-on for a TRS-80 Mod 1, and the case painted to match. Full-height Cumana drive, I think. > -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 24 05:03:11 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 05:03:11 -0600 Subject: Weird disk drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <458E5E6F.3000107@yahoo.co.uk> Sellam Ismail wrote: > It's basically just a disk drive that powers up and spins if you put a > disk in it. OK, questions: 1) Any sign of any additional drive boards within the case or anything that might be ROM on the drive PCBs themselves? 2) Does the disk keep spinning forever when you put it in, or just do a few revolutions and stop? 3) When you put a disk in, do the heads step at all? Or does it just sit on track 0 all the time? And some initial guesses: 1) Homebrew case which someone just never got around to finishing and adding a data connector to. 2) Commercial prototype for testing various aspects (PSU heat dissipation, drive mounting, power socket mounting, case paint etc.) 3) Tester for a *floppy disk* manufacturer (i.e. does my product foul a stock drive mechanism, does it fall apart in the heat of a typical enclosure etc.) 4) Degausser (as you say) or other form of disk eraser 5) TV / movie prop I'm quite liking the first and last ones - although the last one's probably only credible if the disk keeps spinning forever when you put it in. Some form of eraser might be possible if the thing's just wired to write junk; even if the heads don't move I suppose someone could have built a "poor man's eraser" which just trashes track 0 :-) Commercial 'pre-production' type products (2 and 3 above) do seem less likely - not because they wouldn't have existed, but because I'm surprised someone would bother to save them and/or they wouldn't have had a data connector added later to make a fully functioning unit. Can you take the route of asking the person you got it from - and if they weren't the original owner, following the chain back to the person who was? cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 24 05:30:22 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 05:30:22 -0600 Subject: Claude Shannon's "spooky hand in a box" toy In-Reply-To: <458DF2E7.F0B2C99@cs.ubc.ca> References: <458DF2E7.F0B2C99@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <458E64CE.3060603@yahoo.co.uk> Brent Hilpert wrote: > "Nothing could be simpler. It is merely a small wooden casket, the size and > shape of a cigar box, with a single switch on one face. When you throw the > switch, there is an angry, purposeful buzzing. The lid slowly rises, and from > beneath it emerges a hand. The hand reaches down, turns the switch off and > retreats into the box. With the finality of a closing coffin, the lid snaps > shut, the buzzing ceases and peace reigns once more. The psychological effect, > if you do not know what to expect, is devastating. There is something > unspeakably sinister about a machine that does nothing -- absolutely nothing > -- except switch itself off." You know, along vaguely similar lines I was thinking only yesterday that the following would be an interesting little demo. You have three robots. Each robot is programmed with the following 'simple' sequence: "Dismantle the robot to my right (if it isn't already), then assemble the robot to my left, switch the robot to my left on, and switch myself off" So, place the robots in a triangle - one assembled and two in bits - and when the assembled one is turned on they'll sit there forever taking each other apart and putting each other back together again. Utterly pointless, but probably quite fascinating to watch :-) Of course finding a robot (without spending billions) which is sufficiently dexterous to do that kind of assembly, and yet sufficiently simple to be easily dismantled, is left as an exercise for the reader. > I'm just curious whether they are still being made or are they all gone, > except perchance to find one at a garage sale (ebay?)? Is this recognisable to > anyone younger than ~35, or is it a forgotten amusement from the past? Never heard of it before - was it a worldwide thing though, or something that just existed within the US? cheers Jules From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Dec 24 07:17:25 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 13:17:25 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Claude Shannon's "spooky hand in a box" toy In-Reply-To: <458E64CE.3060603@yahoo.co.uk> References: <458DF2E7.F0B2C99@cs.ubc.ca> <458E64CE.3060603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1734.192.168.0.4.1166966245.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sun, December 24, 2006 11:30, Jules Richardson wrote: > Of course finding a robot (without spending billions) which is > sufficiently > dexterous to do that kind of assembly, and yet sufficiently simple to be > easily dismantled, is left as an exercise for the reader. Why not do it as a simulation in Flash? > Never heard of it before - was it a worldwide thing though, or something > that > just existed within the US? I think the closest we had here was a money box in the shape of a coffin; when you put a coin on the actuator switch a hand came out of the coffin, grabbed the coin and yanked it back in. It was the sort of thing you'd find in seafront tat-shops next to the x-ray specs and Charles Atlas stuff.... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From F5INL at wanadoo.fr Sun Dec 24 07:21:52 2006 From: F5INL at wanadoo.fr (Frederic BOSSU) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 14:21:52 +0100 Subject: ===== IBM system 34 SSP command === Message-ID: <002001c7275e$7be717a0$641dfdc1@pc004> Hi, Does anyone know a way of listing the files of a diskette or a disk drive of a System 34 ? I tried the following SSP commands (normally used on S/36 computer), but it doesn't seem to work ... //LOAD $LABEL //RUN //DISPLAY LABEL-ALL,UNIT-F1 //END After typing these commands, I was expecting something should appear on the CRT but nothing arrived, neither a list of files, nor an error message, even if I had to wait few seconds before the computer returns me the hand... I don't really understand what they mean by the verb DISPLAY in the OCL statement guide. Does it mean DISPLAY on the CRT ? DISPLAY on the PRINTER ? DISPLAY in a file ?... grrrr.... Merry X-mas to all, and thank you for your help. Fred. From jmiles007 at iquest.net Sun Dec 24 12:03:46 2006 From: jmiles007 at iquest.net (Jon Miles) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 13:03:46 -0500 Subject: Someone selling off dec disk packs before system In-Reply-To: <458E4566.6020801@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <001e01c72785$db562ce0$6401a8c0@wtr.local> > A seller on ebay is selling of the media while he / she > claims to be in possession of the system as well, I assume > for those who admire "disk packs" or such. > > Anyone interested might want to look in on the RK05 listed, > and the 5 platter disk pack listed. > > seller: wvrunner rk05 auction number:220063749828 > He had one of his RK05 drives listed a little while ago at $499 that didn't sell. He mentions the pdp-11/34 in all of his previous auctions but I've never seen him list it. He had a whole bunch of LA36s and I bought the cleanest one he had. The rest were in pretty rough shape but the RK05s and the 11/34 were very clean. He's a nice guy but he keeps mentioning that 11/34 without ever listing it so I think he's fishing for a buyer off of ebay. Jon From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Dec 24 13:09:36 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 11:09:36 -0800 Subject: FREE Plotter - Last Chance! Message-ID: <200612241109360918.228EFDF4@192.168.42.129> This is being sent to the CCTech, Tektronix, HP, and Test gear mailing list. I have available, for PICKUP ONLY in Kent, Washington (about 30 miles southeast of Seattle), a nice HP DraftMaster pen plotter, a couple of packs of paper (sizes C and D), and a boxful of pens. This needs to be MOVED! I need the space far more than I need a plotter. If no one claims it, I will have to dispose of it as best I can, even if this means tearing it apart and recycling its guts. I know that sounds harsh, but I've seriously reached the point to where this unit has to go. Please get back to me by E-mail ASAP. If E-mail should bounce, please call me on (253) 639-2996. This is the LAST time I'll be offering this. I need to hear from whoever wants it in the next day or so, or it's gone. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Dec 24 13:52:12 2006 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 11:52:12 -0800 Subject: Update, Free Plotter Model number Message-ID: <200612241152120499.22B5FCED@192.168.42.129> I was reminded that it would be a good idea to mention that the HP model number of the plotter is 7595C. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Dec 24 15:24:27 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 18:24:27 -0300 Subject: Weird disk drive References: <009f01c726f9$525ae7f0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <03ab01c727a2$46be99b0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I suppose one could run a cable between the chassis base and the enclosure > cover, but it's awful tight. In fact, there's no gap at all, but a cable > could theoretically fit between the base and the cover (and provide strain > relief) but there's nothing to indicate that was the intent. But perhaps > that *was* the intent? It was very common in Brazil...in the times of external drives! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 24 15:08:36 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:08:36 -0500 Subject: Computer Music Message-ID: I am currently working on a project involving music made with computers before MIDI. Some aspects and examples might be the old mainframes playing tunes on band printers, minicomputers making tunes with RFI, microcomputers controlling analog synthesizers, and so forth. I have no strict timeline on this, but I would like to pull things together in a few months maximum. Things I am looking for: 1) Recordings of 2nd generation (or even before, if they exist) mainframes making tunes. There are a few recordings out there, and I may be getting some help from CHM for more. 2) A working 1970s era minicomputer with core, probably a PDP-8 or Nova, that is reliable enough to make a performance. 3) A 1970s era microcomputer controlling an analog synthesizer. 4) Outstanding examples of Atari and/or C64s making music. 5) Leads to artists and musicians that used classic computers in recordings, famous or not. Decent quality MP3s would be great. 6) An example of the HP printer (a deskjet?) that contains the musical Easter Egg, operational. 7) Any examples of music made by computer algorithms, remixes by computer, and so forth. Experimental works are welcome. 8) Any suggestions to expand this. The computers need not be classics, the music need not be oddball, but the results should be a little on the weird side (for example, I do not need a Pentium 3 running Protools making trance). While I am not looking to buy any of these machines, I am looking for examples that are very reliable, and can travel to New Jersey for a Saturday morning (probably). Appearance is not important, being this will all take place in a studio. There is a very slim chance I can provide the minicomputer, but all my tapes are lost in limbo, so I doubt it. Being a PDP-8/S, normal PDP-8 music tapes will not work. There is also a chance I can provide a Minimoog synthesizer, if someone can provide the microcomputer with D/A cards (for the control voltages) and some sort of software for making a tune. So please go and think about this, and tell me what you think, and if you can contribute. Certainly proper credit will be given to those that can help out, but sorry, no money. I am not getting paid for this either. Thank you for your time. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 24 14:46:41 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:46:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Weird disk drive In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Dec 23, 6 04:25:38 pm Message-ID: > > > I've got the weirdest disk drive ever. > > It's a standard 5.25" mounted inside a factory made metal enclosure. It > has a fixed power cord coming out the back with a power switch. Inside is > a simple power supply (transformer and a couple regulators and capacitors) > that puts out +5V and +12V. There's a power connector going into the disk > drive power socket. > > Here's the weird part: there is no data cable. There is no port or > connector or anything on the enclosure for a data cable. There's not even > a cut-out for a data cable. > > It's basically just a disk drive that powers up and spins if you put a > disk in it. I initially thoughtt that it must be a degausser or > something, but there's nothing inside that would indicate any such > operation. > > OK, I admit it. I'm stumped. > > No markings on the enclosure anywhere. > > Any ideas? Well, a few questions : I think it's clear that a standard disk drive on its own, even with a PSU, deson't do a lot. Is there any evidence there was ever anything else in the box, like a PCB that connected to the data connector on the drive? Mouting holes/hardware, an extra power connector on the PSU? Is the drive a standard model? Is the PCB on the drive standard too? I assume it does have a data connector. Is it possible the drive's PCB has been replaced with soem custom thing. You say it roatets if you insert a disk. Does it rotate for ever, or just for the normal few seconds to centre the disk on the hub? -tony From maurice.smulders at gmail.com Sun Dec 24 15:17:58 2006 From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (maurice smulders) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 14:17:58 -0700 Subject: Looking for HP 10342B Bus Preprocessor Driver disk/files Message-ID: <7d9403580612241317t38776f44g989118129e78c36b@mail.gmail.com> Hello, I'm looking for the HP 10342B files to use it on a HP 1652B Analyzer. I did find the documentation online - thanks to bitsavers.org - but am still looking for the software. Is there a place I could obtain the files required? Kind regards, Maurice From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 24 15:22:02 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 14:22:02 -0700 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:08:36 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > 4) Outstanding examples of Atari and/or C64s making music. *Tons* of stuff there. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 24 16:19:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 15:19:57 -0700 Subject: RSS for new bitsavers files? Message-ID: Is there an RSS feed that tracks the index by date or something? It would be nice to see what's new as RSS items. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From grant at stockly.com Sun Dec 24 17:27:41 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 14:27:41 -0900 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061224141538.049dc4d0@pop.1and1.com> >3) A 1970s era microcomputer controlling an analog synthesizer. I have source code and custom interface cards from ARP's project to create the first consumer computer controlled synth. The prototype was built out of an Altair 8800. Never finished, never released. It was a top secret project within the company I will try to scan the entire binder and recover all of the source code off of the 8" disks if it will help your project. Currently I think I am the only person who still has a copy of this information. I got it by accident when I bought ARP's Altair. ;) The binder has been sitting between the two front seats of my car since September. I'll have a good excuse to scan it on the 26th. ; ) This information has been left out of the history books! I'll include a few routines below... NOTE, I tried to recover the assembler written in "Altair Basic", but it is corrupted on the disk. The assembler program appears to have been written in Altair Basic with line numbers and then assembled by a special program. I would appreciate ANY information on this basic assembler! The person who wrote the routines below wrote a thesis at MIT in 1971 about the possibility of a computer-controlled synth. He was using a PDP-15 at the time. I can provide more information, but a good quote about the Altair 8800 Synth "One of my more impressive demos was doing four-part harmony using a woodwind ensemble (flute, oboe, clarinet and bassoon or French horn). Using the pro-soloists on the four-channel Bose system in the small lab sounded very grand. In fact, the lab was under tight security and not ever the VP of marketing was allowed in, though he tried. (We wanted them to sell what they had now, not get musicians waiting for things to come.) " Grant 0000 org 03fdh 0010 jmp presc 0100 org 0040h 0110 ************************************************************** 0120 * 0130 * Module PRESC 0140 * 0150 * Written by Bruce Cichowlas 8/25/76 0160 * Copyright Circle C - ARP Instruments 9/15/76 0170 * 0180 * PRESC - checks the preset panel and sets the previous 0190 * preset reading (prvpr), as well as the preset request 0200 * word (prerq). This routine should be invoked frequently, 0210 * as it actually does the preset panel scanning. 0220 * 0230 * No arguments 0240 * 0250 ************************************************************** 1000 presc equ $ 1010 push b 1020 lda ppadr ;preset panel addr 1030 ora a ;set flags 1040 jz pres1 ;none set 1050 mov b,a 1060 lda prvpr ;load previous reading 1070 ora b 1080 sta prvpr 1090 pres2 pop b 1100 ret 1110 pres1 lda prvpr ;find out if any were set previously 1120 ora a 1130 jz pres2 ;none before 1140 mov b,a 1150 lda prerq 1160 ora b ;include bits set in b 1170 sta prerq 1180 xra 1190 sta prvpr ;store 0 for the previous reading 1200 pop b 1210 ret 5000 ppadr equ 1800h 6000 *RAM 6001 prvpr equ 08ffh 6002 prerq equ 08feh 0000 org 03e8h 0001 jmp rdsld 0002 jmp clman 0003 jmp nmmsk 0004 jmp msknm 0005 jmp swpnl 0006 jmp clsw 0100 org 009bh 0110 ****************************************************************** 0120 * 0130 * Written by Bruce Cichowlas 9/3/76 0140 * Copyright Circle C - ARP Instruments 9/16/76 0150 * 0160 * CLSW - clears all switches. No arguments. 0170 * SWPNL - sets the switches from the scratchpad. Just 0190 * one byte of them for now. No arguments. 0200 * 0210 * MSKNM - Converts a one bit mask to a number from zero 0220 * to seven indicating bit position, e.g. 01h becomes 0, 0230 * 80h becomes seven. Input and output are from the A register. 0240 * 0250 * NMMSK - Performs the inverse operation of MSKNM. 0260 * 0270 * CLMAN - Clears the manual lights for the slidepots. No 0280 * arguments 0290 * 0300 * RDSLD - Reads a slidepot. On input, A contains 0310 * the slidepot number, and on return it contains the 0320 * slidepot's current value. 0330 * 0340 ******************************************************************** 1000 clsw equ $ 1010 sta swclr 1020 ret 1030 swpnl equ $ 1040 push h 1050 push d 1060 lhld prbas ;base of scratchpad 1070 lda slcnt ;slide count 1080 mov e,a 1090 mvi d,0 H 1100 dad d ;calculate address of switch values in the scratchpad 1110 mov a,m ;get word 1120 cma ;since switches use negative logic 1130 sta setsw ;set the switches 1140 pop d 1150 pop h 1160 ret 1170 msknm equ $ 1180 push b 1190 mvi b,7 1200 mskn1 rlc 1210 jc mskn2 1220 dcr b 1230 jnz mskn1 1240 mskn2 mov a,b 1250 pop b 1260 ret 1270 nmmsk equ $ 1280 push b 1290 mov b,a 1300 mvi a,1 1310 inr b 1320 nmms1 dcr b 1330 jz nmms2 1340 rlc 1350 jmp nmms1 1360 nmms2 pop b 1370 ret 1380 clman equ $ 1390 push b 1400 push d 1410 push h 1420 lda slcnt ;slide count 1430 dcr a ;convert to offset 1440 clma1 push m 1450 lhld lgbas ;man/auto light copy base 1460 call wrdbt ;get wrdbt offset 1470 xra a ;for reset 1480 call setwb ; adjust bit 1490 lxi h,lgdev ; light device 1500 mov e,b 1510 mvi d,0 1520 dad d 1530 mov m,a ;store new value 1540 pop m 1550 dcr a 1560 jp clma1 1570 pop h 1580 pop d 1590 pop b 1600 ret 1610 rdsld equ $ 1620 sta mxadr ;slidepot's MUX addr 1630 nop ;wait for MUX to settle 1640 nop 1650 sta strtc ;start conversion 1660 mvi a,6 1670 rdsl1 dcr a ;delay 1680 jnz rdsl1 1690 lda adout ;get a/d value 1700 ret 7000 *ROM parameter table 7001 prbas equ 0400h ;base of scratchpad 7002 slcnt equ 0402h ;slide pot count 7003 lgbas equ 0403h ;man/auto light copy base 8000 *Device addresses 8001 swclr equ 3003h ;store to this location clears the switch settings 8002 setsw equ 3004h ;store to this setting stores the complement of the 8003 * ;input into the switches 8004 mx88adr equ 3000h ;store to here sets the MUX slidepot address 8005 strtc equ 3002h ;store to here starts the conversion 8006 adout equ 3000h ;this is where the a/d output is put 8007 lgdev equ 3001h ;store to here sets the man/auto lights 9000 *Subroutine 9001 wrdbt equ 03e5h 9002 setwb equ 03e2h equ bins 6060 * 8000 swtch equ 01800h 9000 sortn equ 03f4h 9010 bncnt equ 03e From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Dec 24 19:00:47 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:00:47 -0500 Subject: Weird disk drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061225010047.6E1C2BA4246@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > I've got the weirdest disk drive ever. > > It's a standard 5.25" mounted inside a factory made metal enclosure. It > has a fixed power cord coming out the back with a power switch. Inside is > a simple power supply (transformer and a couple regulators and capacitors) > that puts out +5V and +12V. There's a power connector going into the disk > drive power socket. > > Here's the weird part: there is no data cable. There is no port or > connector or anything on the enclosure for a data cable. There's not even > a cut-out for a data cable. > > It's basically just a disk drive that powers up and spins if you put a > disk in it. I initially thoughtt that it must be a degausser or > something, but there's nothing inside that would indicate any such > operation. > > OK, I admit it. I'm stumped. > > No markings on the enclosure anywhere. > > Any ideas? What you describe sounds very normal for a "generic" floppy drive cabinet from the S-100 days. Well, most of the folks I worked with made theirs out of plywood and 2x4's, but for those who wanted to buy something metal and already made there were generic metal cabinets with holes in the right places. It was always nice if there was a slot for the ribbon cable, but many ribbon cables were regularly abused by slamming a cable on top of them :-) Find a late 70's BYTE and look in the ads in the back. Pinning down the exact era would be easier if you told us the exact floppy drive (e.g. "SA-400"). Date codes on the semiconductors in the power supply might also pin down the era. It is likely that somebody here might recognize the drive jumpering! A drive could indeed be hotwired to always have the write gate always on, but you'd need something else (possibly a small daughterboard with a few TTL chips and/or timers) to get them to go to cylinder 0 and then step over the surface and act as an eraser. Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 24 19:01:10 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 17:01:10 -0800 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20061224141538.049dc4d0@pop.1and1.com> References: , <5.2.1.1.0.20061224141538.049dc4d0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <458EB256.10812.31ADB4D3@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Dec 2006 at 14:27, Grant Stockly wrote: > I have source code and custom interface cards from ARP's project to create > the first consumer computer controlled synth. The prototype was built out > of an Altair 8800. Never finished, never released. It was a top secret > project within the company Many (myself included) simply tied a capacitor to the front panel interrupt enable LED of the 8800 and fed it to an audio system. It was quite workable. Later I did an S-100 card with 5 GI sound chips on it. Who was it who did a live performance back in the 70's with several Commodore Pets, changing diskettes on the fly? There's also this recording: http://www.vintagecomputermusic.com/ One of the ACM SIGs put out an LP or tape of computer music during the 70's. ...and Billy Petit surely remembers "Anchors Aweigh" originally on a 1604, then later on a 3800 (IIRC). Were any recordings ever made of it? It was pretty impressive. Cheers, Chuck From ray at arachelian.com Sun Dec 24 19:15:39 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:15:39 -0500 Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <458F263B.4040602@arachelian.com> Richard wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone know if its possible to have multiple CGA cards on an ISA > bus? I have a feeling the answer is no... > No, however it was possible to have a CGA card and a monochrome card in the same machine at the same time, I think. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Dec 24 19:25:40 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:25:40 -0500 Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? References: <458F263B.4040602@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <003601c727c3$97425040$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Arachelian" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 8:15 PM Subject: Re: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? > Richard wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Does anyone know if its possible to have multiple CGA cards on an ISA > > bus? I have a feeling the answer is no... > > > No, however it was possible to have a CGA card and a monochrome card in > the same machine at the same time, I think. Can you have CGA and VGA in at the same time? From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Dec 24 19:36:00 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 20:36:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: <458EB256.10812.31ADB4D3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <5.2.1.1.0.20061224141538.049dc4d0@pop.1and1.com> <458EB256.10812.31ADB4D3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Dec 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ...and Billy Petit surely remembers "Anchors Aweigh" originally on a > 1604, then later on a 3800 (IIRC). Were any recordings ever made of > it? It was pretty impressive. The CHM has recordings of several tunes played on the 1403 line printer: http://www.computerhistory.org/exhibits/highlights/ I have the decks for the 1401 which play "Anchor's Aweigh" and "She'll Be Comin' 'Round the Mountain", from 1970. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 24 19:53:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 17:53:51 -0800 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: References: , <458EB256.10812.31ADB4D3@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <458EBEAF.3536.31DDEF85@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Dec 2006 at 20:36, Mike Loewen wrote: > I have the decks for the 1401 which play "Anchor's Aweigh" and "She'll > Be Comin' 'Round the Mountain", from 1970. Very cool. The 3800 version used line printers and tape drives and the 3800 console speaker and I can't recall what else. It was very impressive. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 24 19:55:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 17:55:35 -0800 Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? In-Reply-To: <003601c727c3$97425040$0b01a8c0@game> References: , <003601c727c3$97425040$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <458EBF17.15617.31DF86D3@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Dec 2006 at 20:25, Teo Zenios wrote: > Can you have CGA and VGA in at the same time? No, but one can mix CGA and EGA in the same box. AFAIK, the MDA can live with just about any other card except another MDA/Herc card. Cheers, Chuck From grant at stockly.com Sun Dec 24 19:36:30 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:36:30 -0900 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: <458EB256.10812.31ADB4D3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061224141538.049dc4d0@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20061224141538.049dc4d0@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061224162531.04750ce8@pop.1and1.com> At 04:01 PM 12/24/2006, you wrote: >On 24 Dec 2006 at 14:27, Grant Stockly wrote: > > > I have source code and custom interface cards from ARP's project to create > > the first consumer computer controlled synth. The prototype was built out > > of an Altair 8800. Never finished, never released. It was a top secret > > project within the company > >Many (myself included) simply tied a capacitor to the front panel >interrupt enable LED of the 8800 and fed it to an audio system. It >was quite workable. Later I did an S-100 card with 5 GI sound chips >on it. MITS was prototyping the MU-1 music card with 6 square wave channels (no envelope/volume/pitch/etc). When Pertec took over they killed the board. I have a bare PCB version of this prototype and may bring it back to life... http://www.riptiderealtime.com/88mu1.htm There was a special version of basic for the card with added note/duration commands. There was also a version of startrek for the card that ran under regular basic and had sound effects during the game. ARP's project would have cost an individual a lot to put together. A bank of Pro Soloists... http://www.vintagesynth.com/index2.html Now that system connected to the 4 channel Bose sound system (on loan) must have sounded amazing, even by today's standards! : ) Grant From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sun Dec 24 21:18:52 2006 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 03:18:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: help ID this ISA card Message-ID: I have a 16-bit ISA card labelled "Arnet 30500404 Copyright 1993 Arnet Corp. Made in USA". It has 2 HD-15 female connectors labelled Line1 and Line2, a bunch of discrete logic, 6 PALs and a Hitachi HD64570CP 2-port Serial Communications Adapter chip. A google search tells me only that it might have been an S/570 adapter, but I have no idea what S/570 was (the most common hit seems to be for a scanning electron microscope?) and if I can trust the one parts dealer that seems to have one to know what it actually is :-) Anyone know what this board does? Anyone want it? Alexey From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Dec 24 22:23:32 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 23:23:32 -0500 Subject: RSS for new bitsavers files? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061225042332.GA13088@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> On Sun, Dec 24, 2006 at 03:19:57PM -0700, Richard wrote: > Is there an RSS feed that tracks the index by date or something? > > It would be nice to see what's new as RSS items. Why don't you make an RSS feed yourself. Just write a quick and dirty Perl/Python script to parse the text file on the site when it grows in size... ftp://computer-refuge.org/bitsavers/IndexByDate.txt Or see if there's something that's already written (OSS) that you can abuse to do your bidding. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 24 23:33:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 22:33:15 -0700 Subject: RSS for new bitsavers files? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 24 Dec 2006 23:23:32 -0500. <20061225042332.GA13088@alpha.rcac.purdue.edu> Message-ID: In article <20061225042332.GA13088 at alpha.rcac.purdue.edu>, Patrick Finnegan writes: > On Sun, Dec 24, 2006 at 03:19:57PM -0700, Richard wrote: > > Is there an RSS feed that tracks the index by date or something? > > > > It would be nice to see what's new as RSS items. > > Why don't you make an RSS feed yourself. If I get a roundtuit, I might make one, but following the three rules of programming: 1) Don't do it. 2) Don't do it again. 3) When all else fails, break rule 1. tells me to ask if someone else has done it first :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From n8uhn at yahoo.com Sun Dec 24 23:52:52 2006 From: n8uhn at yahoo.com (Bill Allen Jr) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 21:52:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: ===== IBM system 34 SSP command ===+ In-Reply-To: <200612241801.kBOI0w7t037932@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061225055252.55989.qmail@web30503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Oh Man, it's been years but, check out the "listlibr" (list library) command. i think it works with floppys but it may be a hard drive command. something like //listlibr dir the dir switch need to be in there somewhere. also i think display is the ocl command for display. the listlibr command uses a switch for the crt or printer too. keep in mind that the crt only displays so many columns you'll have to send the output to the line printer or a printer on the twinax to view the entire line. Bill Message: 30 Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 14:21:52 +0100 From: "Frederic BOSSU" Subject: ===== IBM system 34 SSP command === To: Hi, Does anyone know a way of listing the files of a diskette or a disk drive of a System 34 ? I tried the following SSP commands (normally used on S/36 computer), but it doesn't seem to work ... //LOAD $LABEL //RUN //DISPLAY LABEL-ALL,UNIT-F1 //END After typing these commands, I was expecting something should appear on the CRT but nothing arrived, neither a list of files, nor an error message, even if I had to wait few seconds before the computer returns me the hand... I don't really understand what they mean by the verb DISPLAY in the OCL statement guide. Does it mean DISPLAY on the CRT ? DISPLAY on the PRINTER ? DISPLAY in a file ?... grrrr.... Merry X-mas to all, and thank you for your help. Fred. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Dec 25 00:33:57 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 01:33:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cylinders versus tracks... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200612250637.BAA19957@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Well, if I had a drive with, say, 2 surfaces, 2 heads per surface, > and 100 positions those heads could be moved to, I'd probably call it > 100 cylinders, 4 heads, since logically it's the same as 4 surfaces > with one head per surface. Only if the (physical) tracks accessible by the two heads on a given surface are disjoint. If the heads range over the same physical tracks and exist either to just give either lessened rotational latency or to give simultaneous access to distinct physical tracks, then it is logically very much different from a 4-surface 1-head/surface drive, and there is then no accurate way to describe it except as 2 surfaces with 2 heads each. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Dec 25 01:41:19 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 02:41:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Claude Shannon's "spooky hand in a box" toy In-Reply-To: <458E64CE.3060603@yahoo.co.uk> References: <458DF2E7.F0B2C99@cs.ubc.ca> <458E64CE.3060603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200612250745.CAA20415@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > You have three robots. Each robot is programmed with the following > 'simple' sequence: > "Dismantle the robot to my right (if it isn't already), then > assemble the robot to my left, switch the robot to my left on, and > switch myself off" I like it. I *like* it. Even if "disassembled" means just taken apart into a half-dozen major subsystems, this could be Pretty Cool. Especially neat would be if the program included the ability to steal parts from the disassembled robot on the right as necessary to build the robot on the left - you could lose up to one robot's worth of parts and it would still work. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 25 02:19:42 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 00:19:42 -0800 Subject: This just MADE my day Message-ID: 120066849881 US $41.00 Roytron 500 Series Preventative Maintenance Manual 120066855236 US $61.00 Roytron Punch/Reader Basic Mechanism Manual al_kossow (*) 120066858797 US $21.50 OEM Roytron Punch/Reader Part List Manual, Original 120066861636 US $22.50 OEM Roytron Punch/Reader Electronics Manual, 1966 or just wait 12 hours http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120068155568 and get the scans for $10 ---- THANK YOU VERY MUCH, members of the collecting "community" I should just run the paper into the shredder. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Dec 25 02:34:22 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 00:34:22 -0800 Subject: This just MADE my day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <458F8D0E.4050205@msm.umr.edu> Al Kossow wrote: > and get the scans for $10 > ---- > THANK YOU VERY MUCH, members of the collecting "community" > > I should just run the paper into the shredder. I wondered when this sort of thing might start. I guess you should hold off on buying his PDP8 stuff, and see if he has it on cdrom as well. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 24 11:15:57 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 12:15:57 -0500 Subject: Weird disk drive Message-ID: <0JAS00KUIFULOZ3K@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Weird disk drive > From: Jules Richardson > Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 05:03:11 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts , > sellam at vintagetech.com > >Sellam Ismail wrote: >> It's basically just a disk drive that powers up and spins if you put a >> disk in it. > >OK, questions: > >1) Any sign of any additional drive boards within the case or anything that >might be ROM on the drive PCBs themselves? > >2) Does the disk keep spinning forever when you put it in, or just do a few >revolutions and stop? > >3) When you put a disk in, do the heads step at all? Or does it just sit on >track 0 all the time? > > >And some initial guesses: > >1) Homebrew case which someone just never got around to finishing and adding a >data connector to. > >2) Commercial prototype for testing various aspects (PSU heat dissipation, >drive mounting, power socket mounting, case paint etc.) > >3) Tester for a *floppy disk* manufacturer (i.e. does my product foul a stock >drive mechanism, does it fall apart in the heat of a typical enclosure etc.) > >4) Degausser (as you say) or other form of disk eraser > >5) TV / movie prop > >I'm quite liking the first and last ones - although the last one's probably >only credible if the disk keeps spinning forever when you put it in. > >Some form of eraser might be possible if the thing's just wired to write junk; >even if the heads don't move I suppose someone could have built a "poor man's >eraser" which just trashes track 0 :-) > >Commercial 'pre-production' type products (2 and 3 above) do seem less likely >- not because they wouldn't have existed, but because I'm surprised someone >would bother to save them and/or they wouldn't have had a data connector added >later to make a fully functioning unit. > >Can you take the route of asking the person you got it from - and if they >weren't the original owner, following the chain back to the person who was? > >cheers > >Jules Or #6: Many of the trs80 external drive boxes (early non-RS product ca1978) would just plug the cable to the drive and pass it out the case through a space or gap. There was no formal external connector. Also the external box for the NS* MDS-A (1978 also) had no external connector though there was a noiceable notch in the rear of the case to pass the 34wide ribbon cable through. I've seen several of thses. Allison From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Dec 24 15:54:41 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 21:54:41 +0000 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <458EF721.40106@gjcp.net> Richard wrote: > In article , > "William Donzelli" writes: > >> 4) Outstanding examples of Atari and/or C64s making music. > > *Tons* of stuff there. And here -> http://www.8bitpeoples.com/ From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Dec 24 16:05:44 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 22:05:44 +0000 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <458EF9B8.5080406@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > You are not alone there. I use a cellphone for making voice calls only. > OK, I may have sent the odd SMS message, but I don't _need_ that > facility. I certainly don't need a colour display, or internet access, or > a camera (all that I have seen make an instamatic's pictures look good!), > and so on. Yeah, but since the SMS facility is actually required *anyway*, you may as well make it accessible to the user. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Dec 24 16:27:19 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 22:27:19 +0000 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <458EFEC7.1020103@gjcp.net> Christian Corti wrote: > You really don't know what you say. Do you think it's progressive to > download firmware updates into your TV set? Having to boot it? Fighting > against all kind of software bugs? Do you think it's acceptable to be forced to live with faulty equipment because there's no way to "take back" bad or faulty design decisions? What people want and expect out of equipment has changed. If it hadn't, we'd all still be driving around in Morris Minors. That's actually a good example - it's impossible to achieve modern emissions figures from a car engine fitted with a carburettor, and there is a lot to go wrong in one. Fuel injection systems keep better track of mixture giving cleaner emissions and better economy, and there's less to go wrong. If anything does go wrong, it will tell you what's upset it. Look at household appliances, too - how much do you think it costs to make that big cam switch inside a washing machine? It's much cheaper to replace all that with a PIC microcontroller (most common MCU I've seen in washing machines) and a few triacs, maybe a relay or two. Furthermore, if it turns out that there's a problem (Hey, the half-hour wash cycle doesn't rinse properly!) it's easy to fix. Gordon. From vrs at email.msn.com Sun Dec 24 23:19:51 2006 From: vrs at email.msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 21:19:51 -0800 Subject: FREE Plotter - Last Chance! References: <200612241109360918.228EFDF4@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: > I have available, for PICKUP ONLY in Kent, Washington (about 30 miles southeast of Seattle), a nice HP DraftMaster pen plotter, a couple of packs of paper (sizes C and D), and a boxful of pens. > > This needs to be MOVED! I need the space far more than I need a plotter. I am in the Seattle area, at a hotel in the Bothel area, and will be headed south to Olympia in the morning. Should I pick this up from you? Vince From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Dec 25 06:14:08 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 09:14:08 -0300 Subject: Looking for HP 10342B Bus Preprocessor Driver disk/files References: <7d9403580612241317t38776f44g989118129e78c36b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <049f01c7281e$74d5d850$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I'm looking for the HP 10342B files to use it on a HP 1652B Analyzer. I > did > find the documentation online - thanks to bitsavers.org - but am still > looking for the software. Is there a place I could obtain the files > required? And I'm looking for ANY discs that can be used on the 1662A analyzer :) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Dec 25 06:17:27 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 09:17:27 -0300 Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? References: , <003601c727c3$97425040$0b01a8c0@game> <458EBF17.15617.31DF86D3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <04b001c7281f$2bc8ddf0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > No, but one can mix CGA and EGA in the same box. AFAIK, the MDA can > live with just about any other card except another MDA/Herc card. No, you can only mix CGA + MDA EGA + MDA VGA + MDA VGA + VGA From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Dec 25 08:41:51 2006 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 09:41:51 -0500 Subject: Weird disk drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I've got the weirdest disk drive ever. > > It's a standard 5.25" mounted inside a factory made metal enclosure. It > has a fixed power cord coming out the back with a power switch. > Inside is > a simple power supply (transformer and a couple regulators and > capacitors) > that puts out +5V and +12V. There's a power connector going into > the disk > drive power socket. > > Here's the weird part: there is no data cable. There is no port or > connector or anything on the enclosure for a data cable. There's > not even > a cut-out for a data cable. > > It's basically just a disk drive that powers up and spins if you put a > disk in it. I initially thoughtt that it must be a degausser or > something, but there's nothing inside that would indicate any such > operation. > > OK, I admit it. I'm stumped. Sounds like it might be Ohio Scientific. Their standard method for routing ribbon cables, at both the drive and CPU ends, was to run it between the halves of the metal chassis, relying on the clamping pressure between them to provide a "sort of" strain relief. Also, the description of the PSU and power cable sound about right and it is not at all uncommon for the OSI ID badges to fall off. Bill -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.26/601 - Release Date: 12/24/2006 From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 25 09:50:29 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 08:50:29 -0700 Subject: This just MADE my day In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 25 Dec 2006 00:19:42 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Al Kossow writes: > THANK YOU VERY MUCH, members of the collecting "community" I don't think you can blame the whole community for this one person's behavior, or is there something else you're not telling us? I see overpriced "vintage" manuals on ebay all the time. Hell, I see people trying to sell CDs of stuff that is just collected from bitsavers. This sort of thing has been going on for a long time, what is it about this particular one that has you so pissed, Al? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 25 09:52:03 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 07:52:03 -0800 Subject: This just MADE my day Message-ID: <3AF2A3CE-7796-44E9-A895-FE99EEE636FC@bitsavers.org> > I guess you should hold off on buying his PDP8 stuff Between what Eric Smith, CHM and others have I don't think I need any of his PDP-8 stuff. The Royotron stuff is much more rare since the punch is used in DEC reader/punches but the info in them isn't in the DEC service docs. I normally don't say anything about getting stuff run up on me, but paying $150+ to have the seller turn around and try selling scans for $10 was depressing (only good thing is he claims 200dpi, which won't be all that great). From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 25 10:05:19 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 11:05:19 -0500 Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? In-Reply-To: <458F263B.4040602@arachelian.com> References: <458F263B.4040602@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <3A28B1F6-8431-49B4-9B37-CE242802C190@neurotica.com> On Dec 24, 2006, at 8:15 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: >> Does anyone know if its possible to have multiple CGA cards on an ISA >> bus? I have a feeling the answer is no... >> > No, however it was possible to have a CGA card and a monochrome > card in > the same machine at the same time, I think. Indeed it is, and this was a common configuration on CAD systems. AutoCAD, and possibly other similar packages, allowed user interaction to be performed on the monochrome text display with the work-in-progress being displayed on the color tube. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 25 09:58:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 08:58:44 -0700 Subject: This just MADE my day In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 25 Dec 2006 07:52:03 -0800. <3AF2A3CE-7796-44E9-A895-FE99EEE636FC@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <3AF2A3CE-7796-44E9-A895-FE99EEE636FC at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > I normally don't say anything about getting stuff run up on me, but > paying $150+ to have the seller turn around and try selling scans for > $10 was depressing (only good thing is he claims 200dpi, which > won't be all that great). Oh, now I get it. I didn't look at the other items to see that you'd already paid for them. Yeah, that's pretty sleazy. But hey, its ebay, what did you expect? All sweetness and nice? It still hurts, but not as bad as if you got the manuals sent to you and they arrived as a smashed pile of parts at your feet. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 25 09:56:24 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 08:56:24 -0700 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 24 Dec 2006 21:54:41 +0000. <458EF721.40106@gjcp.net> Message-ID: In article <458EF721.40106 at gjcp.net>, Gordon JC Pearce writes: > Richard wrote: > > In article , > > "William Donzelli" writes: > > > >> 4) Outstanding examples of Atari and/or C64s making music. > > > > *Tons* of stuff there. > > And here -> > http://www.8bitpeoples.com/ Yep, 8bitpeoples are great guys. I've flown their members to SLC from NYC twice for performances here. You can listen to Nullsleep's performance from 2003 here: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 25 10:15:35 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 11:15:35 -0500 Subject: This just MADE my day In-Reply-To: <3AF2A3CE-7796-44E9-A895-FE99EEE636FC@bitsavers.org> References: <3AF2A3CE-7796-44E9-A895-FE99EEE636FC@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Between what Eric Smith, CHM and others have I don't think I need > any of his PDP-8 stuff. If you talk to Eric soon, please prod him about my tapes in limbo. I gave him five shoeboxes of tapes (PDP-8/S, Interdata and MAC16) to give to you when he did that cross country trip several years ago. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 25 10:33:00 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 11:33:00 -0500 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: <458EF721.40106@gjcp.net> References: <458EF721.40106@gjcp.net> Message-ID: Thanks all to pointers to interesting things so far. What I really need, however, are pieces of actual hardware making the tunes, rather than recordings. I realize that I can not bring a 1403N1 printer into the studio, so recordings are in order there, but I certainly can get a PDP-8/e or Altair or Atari setup going. The major shtick is that the machines will be making the music right then and there, live. This is all a preliminary idea for a one-off show on WFMU in Jersey City, NJ. I have very enthusiastic support from others at the station, including the music director, however, I had to tell him that I need time to gather up all the pieces. Those with systems that they would like to demo need not have their human half get on the air if they want to, although it would be nice if I had some others to talk to about the systems and the weird computer music culture behind it. Pretty much the only requirement would be that the show would be some Saturday in the mid morning in Jersey City, and the machine owners would need to be there beforehand, ready to go. I should also say that an analog computer running a synth would be cool as well. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 25 10:40:37 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 08:40:37 -0800 Subject: This just MADE my day In-Reply-To: <3AF2A3CE-7796-44E9-A895-FE99EEE636FC@bitsavers.org> References: <3AF2A3CE-7796-44E9-A895-FE99EEE636FC@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: At 7:52 AM -0800 12/25/06, Al Kossow wrote: > > I guess you should hold off on buying his PDP8 stuff > >Between what Eric Smith, CHM and others have I don't think I need >any of his PDP-8 stuff. The Royotron stuff is much more rare since >the punch is used in DEC reader/punches but the info in them isn't >in the DEC service docs. > >I normally don't say anything about getting stuff run up on me, but >paying $150+ to have the seller turn around and try selling scans for >$10 was depressing (only good thing is he claims 200dpi, which >won't be all that great). Something else to think about is that he can claim copywrite on the compilation of those scans, thereby preventing you from posting *HIS* scans, so just do yours at a higher resolution :^) Somehow this guy reminds me of a lot of people selling Genealogy CD's. The library has thousands of them (it's a lot more than just computer history), and I was horrified to learn that a lot are only one book (PDF) per CD. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 25 10:41:38 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 08:41:38 -0800 Subject: Merry Christmas! Message-ID: I hope everyone has a very Merry Christmas today! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 25 13:41:11 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 11:41:11 -0800 Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? In-Reply-To: <04b001c7281f$2bc8ddf0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: , <04b001c7281f$2bc8ddf0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <458FB8D7.2542.35AF1949@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Dec 2006 at 9:17, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > No, but one can mix CGA and EGA in the same box. AFAIK, the MDA can > > live with just about any other card except another MDA/Herc card. > > No, you can only mix > > CGA + MDA > EGA + MDA > VGA + MDA > VGA + VGA No--you can mix CGA and EGA, but you're restricted as to modes, and you may have to program the display software yourself. See, for example: http://www.seasip.info/VintagePC/dualhead.html Merry Christmas, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Dec 25 13:45:20 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 14:45:20 -0500 Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? In-Reply-To: <003601c727c3$97425040$0b01a8c0@game> References: <458F263B.4040602@arachelian.com> <003601c727c3$97425040$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <45902A50.3060400@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray Arachelian" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 8:15 PM > Subject: Re: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? > > >> Richard wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Does anyone know if its possible to have multiple CGA cards on an ISA >>> bus? I have a feeling the answer is no... >>> >> No, however it was possible to have a CGA card and a monochrome card in >> the same machine at the same time, I think. > > Can you have CGA and VGA in at the same time? If memory serves, no. Peace... Sridhar From rdd at rddavis.org Mon Dec 25 14:08:24 2006 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: 25 Dec 2006 15:08:24 -0500 Subject: Merry Christmas! In-Reply-To: <200612251800.kBPI0N7w052032@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612251800.kBPI0N7w052032@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061225200824.GD469@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe "Zane H. Healy" , from writings of Mon, Dec 25, 2006 at 12:00:32PM -0600: > I hope everyone has a very Merry Christmas today! Thanks! A very Merry Christmas, Newtonsday and Winter Solstice/Yule/Midwinter to you and everyone else on this list! Hopefully everyone on this list got something hackish today and no one here got a stocking full of switches (by that I'm not referring to those of the electical variety! ...a stocking full of those would always be useful). Robert -- R. D. Davis 410-744-4900 Beware & halt the National Animal ID System (NAIS)! www.rddavis.org http://nonais.org http://www.libertyark.org www.danglingspiders.com http://www.rddavis.org/equitation/freedom-vs-id.html Dangling Spiders Electronic Music Studio http://www.stopanimalid.org From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Dec 25 14:23:14 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 12:23:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: This just MADE my day In-Reply-To: <458F8D0E.4050205@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <507507.74322.qm@web83014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- jim stephens wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: > > and get the scans for $10 > > ---- > > THANK YOU VERY MUCH, members of the collecting > "community" > > > > I should just run the paper into the shredder. > I wondered when this sort of thing might start. Barry is a manuals dealer. He seems to be involved primarily with military radios, test equipment, and Heathkit gear. I doubt he considers himself a member of our community, though I would like to think that being involved with old electronics in general he would have some affinity for it. BTW, I confess to have caused the run-up in the price of those documents. I misjudged Al's interest in them, and wanted to make sure that somebody else didn't get them, only to have them disappear into a black hole. It turns out that Al outbid me anyhow. I've offered to buy the documents from Al after he's scanned them. I really appreciate that Al is willing to spend his personal funds to build the archive, and think that it would be a good thing if we could spread the burden around somehow. --Bill From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 25 14:07:25 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 20:07:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <458EFEC7.1020103@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Dec 24, 6 10:27:19 pm Message-ID: > What people want and expect out of equipment has changed. If it hadn't, > we'd all still be driving around in Morris Minors. That's actually a I wish I was! > good example - it's impossible to achieve modern emissions figures from > a car engine fitted with a carburettor, and there is a lot to go wrong > in one. Fuel injection systems keep better track of mixture giving You know, it all my years of car repair (although I don't drive, I've repaired my father's cars for 30 years or so), I've only ever had to do 2 carburetter repairs. A needle valve that stuck closed, and a torn diaphragm in a Znetih CDS. > cleaner emissions and better economy, and there's less to go wrong. If > anything does go wrong, it will tell you what's upset it. And now he has this Skoda with an electronic controller for the igntiion/injhection and another one for the transmission. Sure I can read out the fault codes and follow the procedures in the workshop manual if it goes wrong. But if it fails '7 miles from nowherr and beyond' I think I would have a much better chance of fixing a carburetter than this system. (as indeed I once did to a friend's Land Rover. Seriously, the police called me to say this chap had broken down and he felt I was the one person who could get it going again. I did. A bit of insulating tape to patch up the torn diaphragm in the carbutetter got him going again and got him home. Next day he fitted a new diaphragm. > > Look at household appliances, too - how much do you think it costs to > make that big cam switch inside a washing machine? It's much cheaper to > replace all that with a PIC microcontroller (most common MCU I've seen > in washing machines) and a few triacs, maybe a relay or two. > Furthermore, if it turns out that there's a problem (Hey, the half-hour > wash cycle doesn't rinse properly!) it's easy to fix. Eh? I've rebuilt those cam-timer programmers. And I could do it again. Much more quickly than having to reapir something based on a PIC with no source code or even object code available. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 25 14:09:33 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 20:09:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? In-Reply-To: <458F263B.4040602@arachelian.com> from "Ray Arachelian" at Dec 24, 6 08:15:39 pm Message-ID: > > Richard wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Does anyone know if its possible to have multiple CGA cards on an ISA > > bus? I have a feeling the answer is no... > > > No, however it was possible to have a CGA card and a monochrome card in > the same machine at the same time, I think. It is (my PC/XT system has jsst that configuration). I believe (but would have to check the manuals to be sure) you can have n EGA card set to colour mode co-existing with an MDA card or an EGA card set to monochrome mode co-existing with a CGA card. -tony From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Dec 25 15:30:57 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 22:30:57 +0100 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45904311.8010605@bluewin.ch> Tony Duell wrote: >> cleaner emissions and better economy, This is an important case of newer being better. Sure, not as easy to repair, but nevertheless better. Jos Dreesen From blkline at attglobal.net Mon Dec 25 16:11:26 2006 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 17:11:26 -0500 Subject: ===== IBM system 34 SSP command === In-Reply-To: <002001c7275e$7be717a0$641dfdc1@pc004> References: <002001c7275e$7be717a0$641dfdc1@pc004> Message-ID: <45904C8E.6040901@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Frederic BOSSU wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone know a way of listing the files of a diskette or a disk drive of a System 34 ? I tried the following SSP commands (normally used on S/36 computer), but it doesn't seem to work ... > > //LOAD $LABEL > //RUN > //DISPLAY LABEL-ALL,UNIT-F1 > //END > > After typing these commands, I was expecting something should appear on the CRT but nothing arrived, neither a list of files, nor an error message, even if I had to wait few seconds before the computer returns me the hand... > This is going back a long way, but just use the CATALOG command. Prompting for give you the available options for your machine. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFkEyNCFu3bIiwtTARAnoEAKCRxaZFmDbUp0h/BBOt2J9xU1NBeACfdfsM /7a6cBlh1l+1Zc8z5PDxWrA= =Wcoq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Dec 25 03:23:40 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 09:23:40 +0000 Subject: This just MADE my day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <458F989C.3070705@gjcp.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > THANK YOU VERY MUCH, members of the collecting "community" > > I should just run the paper into the shredder. Is this someone selling copies of stuff you've scanned? You could report it to eBay. This crops up a lot on another mailing list I'm on, where one of the guys has scanned in all the technical manuals for a car and keeps seeing copies of his CD pop up on eBay. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Dec 25 05:13:31 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 11:13:31 +0000 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <458FB25B.2080608@gjcp.net> William Donzelli wrote: > 3) A 1970s era microcomputer controlling an analog synthesizer. http://www.ems-synthi.demon.co.uk/emsstory.html Gordon From grant at stockly.com Mon Dec 25 17:00:27 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 14:00:27 -0900 Subject: 88-ACR KCS modification Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061225135819.02e99360@pop.1and1.com> I'm trying to modify my 88-ACR to work with the KCS specification. Does anyone know where the information on modifying the 88-ACR to read/wrote KCS audio is? Also, I was wondering if anyone ever looked at this card? The XR210 chip MITS used for demodulation of the FSK signal is capable of MODULATING too. (with both mark and space frequencies). Does anyone know why they would have used 5 ICs and a few opamps to do the modulation when they could have used the other half of a chip already present? Grant From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 25 17:07:12 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 15:07:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? In-Reply-To: <45902A50.3060400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20061225230712.50760.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> > > Can you have CGA and VGA in at the same time? It's already been said you can't have CGA and VGA by someone, but I'm curious why. Obviously multiple VGA cards are possible under Win98 and beyond. There is a rumor Win98 can be coerced into running on a system w/only a CGA card... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 25 17:31:20 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 23:31:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <45904311.8010605@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Dec 25, 6 10:30:57 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: No I didn't!. > > >> cleaner emissions and better economy, > > This is an important case of newer being better. Sure, not as easy to > repair, but nevertheless better. Remember the total emissions of a car are not just those which come out of the exhaust pipe. There's also the issue of making the car in the first place, and (alas) scrapping it. Some so-called environmetnally-friendly cars are anything but if you look at the whole picture. -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 25 17:36:27 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 15:36:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <768553.51669.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> > >(I'm not disappointed, I knew it'd be as much as > that, I just can't afford > >that sort of money :)) Who could. And personally I didn't expect it to go that high. I said to myself nothing less then a $1,000 for mine. Looks like I wouldn't have any problem getting that price. It brings up an interesting question though. I haven't been paying diligent attention, but the last Cat went for about $250 on eBay, but that one was alot rougher then this one (and mine :). What is the ceiling for some of these old things? We've seen rare Lisas surpass even their original selling price. When I was O about 8 or 9 I remember reading in a book (that was several years old at that point) that a certain comic book could fetch as much as $100 at a swap meet. The price then was already in the thousands. I think it's up to about $500,000 today. Where does it end? Will we one day see a Cat going for $5,000? Or even more? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Dec 25 17:52:09 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 15:52:09 -0800 Subject: This just MADE my day In-Reply-To: <507507.74322.qm@web83014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <507507.74322.qm@web83014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45906429.5070106@sbcglobal.net> >BTW, I confess to have caused the run-up in the price >of those documents. I misjudged Al's interest in >them, >and wanted to make sure that somebody else didn't get >them, only to have them disappear into a black hole. >It turns out that Al outbid me anyhow. I've offered to >buy the documents from Al after he's scanned them. I >really appreciate that Al is willing to spend his >personal funds to build the archive, and think that it >would be a good thing if we could spread the burden >around somehow. > >--Bill > > I for one, would be willing to pay for scans of manuals. If Al had a way to accept donations I would be willing to help out. Even very small donations would add up and help defray the cost of purchasing new documents. Bob From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Dec 25 18:04:00 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 00:04:00 -0000 (GMT) Subject: Merry Christmas! In-Reply-To: <20061225200824.GD469@rhiannon.rddavis.org> References: <200612251800.kBPI0N7w052032@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20061225200824.GD469@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <4261.192.168.0.2.1167091440.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Mon, December 25, 2006 20:08, R. D. Davis wrote: > Hopefully everyone on this list got something hackish today and no one > here got a stocking full of switches (by that I'm not referring to > those of the electical variety! ...a stocking full of those would > always be useful). Aside from the BigTrak I picked up last week (UK only?) today my wonderful family gave me an Apple Newton OMP (the first one, boxed and yes I know it's not the best) along with a metric buttload of books, manuals and generally excellent reading from 1958 onwards :) Oh yeah, socks too. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 25 18:05:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 16:05:32 -0800 Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? In-Reply-To: <20061225230712.50760.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <45902A50.3060400@gmail.com>, <20061225230712.50760.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <458FF6CC.9675.36A11A83@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Dec 2006 at 15:07, Chris M wrote: > > > Can you have CGA and VGA in at the same time? > > It's already been said you can't have CGA and VGA by > someone, but I'm curious why. Obviously multiple VGA > cards are possible under Win98 and beyond. The conversation up to this point has been about ISA cards (i.e. vintage PC type). PCI VGA cards are a whole 'nother matter. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Dec 25 18:09:24 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 00:09:24 -0000 (GMT) Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* In-Reply-To: <768553.51669.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <768553.51669.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4265.192.168.0.2.1167091764.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Mon, December 25, 2006 23:36, Chris M wrote: > swap meet. The price then was already in the > thousands. I think it's up to about $500,000 today. > Where does it end? Will we one day see a Cat going > for $5,000? Or even more? Of course. I just hope I earn enough $$$$ to get me a Lisa 1 before the price rockets so out of proportion I don't have to mortgage 2 or 3 houses to get it. Naturally by that time it'll be so degraded there's not much chance that it will still be working but hey, I've been after one since 1983..... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From cbajpai at comcast.net Mon Dec 25 19:52:14 2006 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 20:52:14 -0500 Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* In-Reply-To: <4265.192.168.0.2.1167091764.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <200612260152.kBQ1qLoF015587@keith.ezwind.net> Lol...I'm waiting for that day when my Lisa-1 gets crazy money. That way I afford to pay for my kids college! Meanwhile I enjoy the machine (I'm a huge Lisa fan). Adrian...Not to worry about finding a working Lisa-1...My Lisa-1 came with enough spare parts to build a second Lisa-1 (except for the very rare Twiggys). -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Witchy Sent: Monday, December 25, 2006 7:09 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* On Mon, December 25, 2006 23:36, Chris M wrote: > swap meet. The price then was already in the > thousands. I think it's up to about $500,000 today. > Where does it end? Will we one day see a Cat going > for $5,000? Or even more? Of course. I just hope I earn enough $$$$ to get me a Lisa 1 before the price rockets so out of proportion I don't have to mortgage 2 or 3 houses to get it. Naturally by that time it'll be so degraded there's not much chance that it will still be working but hey, I've been after one since 1983..... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Dec 25 21:55:24 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 19:55:24 -0800 Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* In-Reply-To: <200612260152.kBQ1qLoF015587@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Hi All Talking to another that is using the Cat's, the disk drives seem to fail often. As I look into it, I see that the interface doesn't look like your normal interface. It has a 20 pin ribbon cable and that includes 12v and 5v lines in this same cable. The drive has the Canon part number MD 3301. A quick search on the web doesn't show anything. I'm not even sure of the drive size. I think it is a 730K but not sure. Does anyone have any information on this drive?? Thanks Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Dec 25 22:18:34 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 20:18:34 -0800 Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "dwight elvey" > >Hi All >Talking to another that is using the Cat's, the disk drives >seem to fail often. >As I look into it, I see that the interface doesn't look like >your normal interface. It has a 20 pin ribbon cable and >that includes 12v and 5v lines in this same cable. >The drive has the Canon part number MD 3301. >A quick search on the web doesn't show anything. >I'm not even sure of the drive size. I think it is a >730K but not sure. Oops I meant 720K. I looked into it and it is a single sided drive so I suspect it is a 720K. Dwight >Does anyone have any information on this drive?? >Thanks >Dwight > >_________________________________________________________________ >The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop. >http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/ > _________________________________________________________________ Get live scores and news about your team: Add the Live.com Football Page www.live.com/?addtemplate=football&icid=T001MSN30A0701 From useddec at gmail.com Mon Dec 25 22:40:41 2006 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 22:40:41 -0600 Subject: DEC Paper Tape Diags Message-ID: <624966d60612252040s2554bd3bm9c9a206174be6b98@mail.gmail.com> I just found a box of about 10 DEC paper tape trays each having about 8 > diag tapes in it. The few I glanced were PDP11, but there could be a few PDP8 tapes in there. All are in excellent condiction. If you have any interest, please feel free to contact me off list. Thanks, Paul From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Dec 26 05:28:54 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 08:28:54 -0300 Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* References: Message-ID: <066801c728e1$852b5270$f0fea8c0@alpha> > As I look into it, I see that the interface doesn't look like > your normal interface. It has a 20 pin ribbon cable and > that includes 12v and 5v lines in this same cable. > The drive has the Canon part number MD 3301. > A quick search on the web doesn't show anything. > I'm not even sure of the drive size. I think it is a > 730K but not sure. > Does anyone have any information on this drive?? This is a very common (!) MSX drive. Info in www.msxpro.com or better in http://www.msxpro.com/fdd24.html Also, you can find something in english in www.hansotten.com , lemmesee if I can find the right doc... http://www.hansotten.com/msxhw.html in the section "floppy drives" From cc at corti-net.de Tue Dec 26 06:54:58 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:54:58 +0100 (CET) Subject: This just MADE my day In-Reply-To: <3AF2A3CE-7796-44E9-A895-FE99EEE636FC@bitsavers.org> References: <3AF2A3CE-7796-44E9-A895-FE99EEE636FC@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Dec 2006, Al Kossow wrote: > any of his PDP-8 stuff. The Royotron stuff is much more rare since > the punch is used in DEC reader/punches but the info in them isn't > in the DEC service docs. If this is the punch in the PC05 reader/punch, then I think I have the Royotron maintenance manual for it. I had to completely disassemble the punch in our PC05, remove all signs of rust and dirt, remove each single punch needle and clean it, remove each single punch magnet and resolder/glue the wires to the coils (they all fell off due to corrosion) and so on. The punch's working great now... (See also http://computermuseum-stuttgart.de/dev/tmp/pc05.html) Christian From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Dec 26 05:58:39 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 06:58:39 -0500 Subject: 88-ACR KCS modification Message-ID: <0JAV00DMYQH3BIKG@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: 88-ACR KCS modification > From: Grant Stockly > Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 14:00:27 -0900 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >I'm trying to modify my 88-ACR to work with the KCS specification. > >Does anyone know where the information on modifying the 88-ACR to >read/wrote KCS audio is? > >Also, I was wondering if anyone ever looked at this card? The XR210 chip >MITS used for demodulation of the FSK signal is capable of MODULATING >too. (with both mark and space frequencies). Does anyone know why they >would have used 5 ICs and a few opamps to do the modulation when they could >have used the other half of a chip already present? > >Grant Not possible. The ACR is simple FSK and the KCS is redundent FM. As to the latter question of component use... the ACR was intended as a modem (bell 103) and it's design was based on that. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 26 10:14:13 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 11:14:13 -0500 Subject: multiple CGA cards on ISA bus? In-Reply-To: <20061225230712.50760.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061225230712.50760.qmail@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Dec 25, 2006, at 6:07 PM, Chris M wrote: >>> Can you have CGA and VGA in at the same time? > > It's already been said you can't have CGA and VGA by > someone, but I'm curious why. Obviously multiple VGA > cards are possible under Win98 and beyond. It is a hardware limitation. PCI is no problem because it's slot- addressable, but on non-slot-addressable buses like ISA you run into problems with boards sitting at the same I/O and/or memory addresses. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 26 11:00:38 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 10:00:38 -0700 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:39:06 -0700. Message-ID: I just noticed another trend with this seller... He buys vintage computer items on ebay for a lowball price and then marks it up sky high. Is he spotting "undervalued items" or is he just pricing them with "wishful thinking"? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Dec 26 11:21:35 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 12:21:35 -0500 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > He buys vintage computer items on ebay for a lowball price and then > marks it up sky high. Is he spotting "undervalued items" or is he > just pricing them with "wishful thinking"? Wecome to Surplus 101. -- Will From bob at jfcl.com Tue Dec 26 11:29:28 2006 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 09:29:28 -0800 Subject: Jumper settings for ClearPoint DCME Q2B 2Mb QBUS Memory ? Message-ID: <000401c72913$65cc1720$1401010a@Rhyme> Does anyone know the jumper settings for the ClearPoint DCME Q2B memory? I have one that needs the base address changed, and I'm not looking forward to working out the jumpers by trial and error :-) Bitsavers has data for the Q22B, but unfortunately an older board that's quite a bit different. Thanks, Bob Armstrong From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 26 12:12:36 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 11:12:36 -0700 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 26 Dec 2006 12:21:35 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > Wecome to Surplus 101. Umm... yeah, but I'm on ebay too and I can see the stuff just as readily as him. Apparently he's only targeting the "drive by ebayer" that uses the site once in a great while looking for that weirdo item? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From marvin at rain.org Tue Dec 26 12:38:09 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 10:38:09 -0800 Subject: ebay seller computermkt Message-ID: <45916C11.95F67729@rain.org> One selling philosophy is that it is a lot less work to sell an item for $10.00 than 10 items for $1.00 each, or "make your money on each item" vs "make your money on volume." If someone is trying (or needs) to make money, it makes absolutely zero sense to price items *hoping* for the right bidders to come along and bid the price up. Take a look at the final bids on any item, and try to guess what the person who won it was actually willing to pay. Unless you talk to the person, you will have no idea how high the winning bidder was actually willing to go. My guess (now) is that computermkt has a pretty good handle on what an item *can* bring, and prices his stuff accordingly. There is also little doubt that unless he is buying things for his collection (assuming he is a collector), it costs nothing to put in a low bid on something and he will only win if he gets it at his bid price. I saw something simliar at an early VCF (Pleasanton?) where someone brought in some interesting machines, and priced them (in my mind) rather high. Just goes to show what I know since most of them sold! > From: Richard > > He buys vintage computer items on ebay for a lowball price and then > marks it up sky high. Is he spotting "undervalued items" or is he > just pricing them with "wishful thinking"? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Dec 26 14:09:50 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 12:09:50 -0800 Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* In-Reply-To: <066801c728e1$852b5270$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: >From: "Alexandre Souza" > >>As I look into it, I see that the interface doesn't look like >>your normal interface. It has a 20 pin ribbon cable and >>that includes 12v and 5v lines in this same cable. >>The drive has the Canon part number MD 3301. >>A quick search on the web doesn't show anything. >>I'm not even sure of the drive size. I think it is a >>730K but not sure. >>Does anyone have any information on this drive?? > > This is a very common (!) MSX drive. Info in www.msxpro.com or better >in http://www.msxpro.com/fdd24.html Hi Alexandre Thanks a lot. My drive is still functional but another that I've been communicating with has troubles with his drives. I think this is just what he needs. I'm not sure why the designer of this circuit used buffers on 4 of the signals? I'd think these could be just directly wired. It does require that the drive be 720KB compatible. Many newer drives don't support this but it looks like the NEC drive mentioned is relatively easy to get. Dwight > > Also, you can find something in english in www.hansotten.com , lemmesee >if I can find the right doc... http://www.hansotten.com/msxhw.html in the >section "floppy drives" > _________________________________________________________________ Dave vs. Carl: The Insignificant Championship Series. ?Who will win? http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://davevscarl.spaces.live.com/?icid=T001MSN38C07001 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 26 14:56:28 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 12:56:28 -0800 Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* In-Reply-To: References: <066801c728e1$852b5270$f0fea8c0@alpha>, Message-ID: <45911BFC.657.3B1A5B55@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Dec 2006 at 12:09, dwight elvey wrote: > I'm not sure why the designer of this circuit used buffers on 4 of > the signals? I'd think these could be just directly wired. It does > require that the drive be 720KB compatible. Many newer drives > don't support this but it looks like the NEC drive mentioned > is relatively easy to get. I suspect that the circuit is nothing more than a way to provide enough current to sink the MSX pullups. Many 3.5" drives are rated for 1K pullups and perhaps don't have the current drive capability. The other explanation is that he wanted to jumper drive select* to ready* and had extra gates left over. A better solution to the ready* problem would be to add a circuit that derives it from the index* pulse. Aren't just about all 1.44MB drives 720K-compatible? You may have to tape over the aperture on a 1.44MB floppy to get it to work, but I've yet to see a drive (outside of the NEC 1.3MB 360 RPM 3.5" ones) that doesn't speak 720K. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 26 16:22:48 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:22:48 -0700 Subject: IBM 3270 Data Stream Programmer's Reference Message-ID: Does anyone have one of these they could scan? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 26 16:28:59 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:28:59 -0700 Subject: IBM 2741 -- ASCII or EBCDIC? Message-ID: The subject pretty much says it all... which character code did the 2741 typewriter/terminal use? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 26 17:00:58 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:00:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: <45916C11.95F67729@rain.org> Message-ID: <768277.57926.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> > If someone is trying (or needs) to make money, it > makes absolutely zero sense to > price items *hoping* for the right bidders to come > along and bid the price up. This is assuming the seller is even shuffling a full deck. And it actually makes perfect sense. The whole idea behing an auction is to get the best price you can for something. Apparently this "hobby" or whatever it is is growing, looking at the closing bid for the Cat, so his methods aren't entirely fruitless. Here and there you'll find someone who's willing to bid beyond what's reasonable (I did it once myself and O boy did I live to regret it). Yeah, many of his prices are ridiculous. But he might just figure he's got time on his side and no sense letting go of things he probably won't be able to replace. Besides, the cost of living in Binghamton, NY is far less oppressive then in other places. > My guess (now) > is that computermkt has a pretty good handle on what > an item *can* bring, and > prices his stuff accordingly. No, much of it is just wishful thinking. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Dec 26 16:26:52 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 22:26:52 +0000 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4591A1AC.1040809@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: (Sorry Jay, this is getting horribly OT) > Remember the total emissions of a car are not just those which come out > of the exhaust pipe. There's also the issue of making the car in the > first place, and (alas) scrapping it. Some so-called > environmetnally-friendly cars are anything but if you look at the whole > picture. Yes, but there's a point centred around the early 1990s when cars were sophisticated enough to have relatively clean emissions, simple enough to repair with ordinary tools, and not have things like airbags that are of questionable use and really really horrible to try and dispose of. Gordon From kossow at computerhistory.org Tue Dec 26 16:38:51 2006 From: kossow at computerhistory.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 14:38:51 -0800 Subject: 3270 SPM Message-ID: The document part number is GA23-0059 I probably have at least one rev of this, will see if I can find it, though I see rev -07 is still in print. http://www-1.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=pub1ga23005907 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 26 17:06:29 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 16:06:29 -0700 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 26 Dec 2006 10:38:09 -0800. <45916C11.95F67729@rain.org> Message-ID: In article <45916C11.95F67729 at rain.org>, Marvin Johnston writes: > [...] My guess (now) > is that computermkt has a pretty good handle on what an item *can* bring, and > prices his stuff accordingly. [...] I don't see how an Atari 800 is going to bring $300 when they sell routinely on ebay for $30. (or whatever, insert actual price here.) He knows this because he'll *buy* the item from ebay for $30 and then turn it around and list it at $300. It looks like the majority of his stuff expires unsold and the stuff that is selling is best offer below his ask. He must have really cheap storage space, a ready supply of old boxes and lots of free time on his hands for this model to work effectivley. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Dec 26 18:26:44 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 21:26:44 -0300 Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* References: Message-ID: <01da01c7294d$cbcbf330$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Thanks a lot. My drive is still functional but another that I've > been communicating with has troubles with his drives. I think > this is just what he needs. > I'm not sure why the designer of this circuit used buffers on 4 of > the signals? I'd think these could be just directly wired. It does > require that the drive be 720KB compatible. Many newer drives > don't support this but it looks like the NEC drive mentioned > is relatively easy to get. I (me?) also don't know. I have a Philips VG8535 (or 8235? Oh my!) which had a complete drive failure. I just put a normal 720K drive using the turbo-r tutorial, no buffers, just wires. It works flawlessly. I just need to find a broken MSX2 to get a S3527 IC (MSX2 Engine, be dammed!) to make it work like new. It has one of the joystick buttons permanently pressed, due to a failure on the S3527. So I can't play games with that. As soon as I fix that, I'll make it a MSX2+. You can see a photo of it on www.tabajara-labs.com.br (everything in portuguese, but babblefish is there to help you, and the photos are great! :D) Greetings from Brazil Alexandre Souza From grant at stockly.com Tue Dec 26 17:28:37 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 14:28:37 -0900 Subject: 88-ACR KCS modification In-Reply-To: <0JAV00DMYQH3BIKG@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061226141829.0154b308@pop.1and1.com> >Not possible. The ACR is simple FSK and the KCS is redundent FM. What is redundant FM? The wiki article I found described it as being AFSK. 2400Hz for a 1 and 1200Hz for a 0. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_standard I was given a document (from Tom Sanderson) that described a "New Audio Modulation Method for ACR". From the Computer Notes Feb. 1976. It does not mention the KCS, but it does raise 1 from 2225Hz to 2400Hz, and lower 0 from 2025Hz to 1850Hz. The document mentions that because the center frequency hasn't changed that a tape recorded with 2225/2025 can still be read. I assume that the lower frequency could be dropped further to 1200Hz, but then maybe it becomes incompatible with older tapes? >As to the latter question of component use... the ACR was intended as a >modem (bell 103) and it's design was based on that. My question was why did MITS not use the modulator built into the XR-210. What's the deal with cctech and cctalk? Why do some messages go to both? Why do replies to some messages from cctalk go to cctech? Does the moderator decide which cctalk messages go to cctech? I'm a little confused... Thanks, Grant From shirsch at adelphia.net Tue Dec 26 18:10:23 2006 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 19:10:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Dec 2006, William Donzelli wrote: > I am currently working on a project involving music made with > computers before MIDI. Some aspects and examples might be the old > mainframes playing tunes on band printers, minicomputers making tunes > with RFI, microcomputers controlling analog synthesizers, and so > forth. How about a first-class synthesizer? The New England Digital Synclavier was built around a bit slice AM29xx minicomputer running their ABEL operating system. IIRC, the developers were involved in early research into digital synthesis at Dartmouth College (circa 1973?) and went on to found NED. The Synclavier had considerable commercial software available for it and could be programmed in a low-level language called XPL. IIRC, the first units appeared around 1980 and almost certainly pre-dated the IBM PC. Although later versions "spoke" MIDI, this was a marketing afterthought. It was light years more advanced than consumer instruments of the day, with only the Australian FairLight synthesizer coming close. Finding a working unit for your presentation might be difficult. They were finicky at best and I'll wager there aren't a lot of functional systems out there anymore. Unfortunately, the world market for $100K synths (back when that was real money) was easily saturated and NED went belly-up in the late 80s. -- From spc at conman.org Tue Dec 26 18:58:08 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 19:58:08 -0500 Subject: Weird disk drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061227005808.GN17847@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Sellam Ismail once stated: > > Here's the weird part: there is no data cable. There is no port or > connector or anything on the enclosure for a data cable. There's not even > a cut-out for a data cable. > > It's basically just a disk drive that powers up and spins if you put a > disk in it. I initially thoughtt that it must be a degausser or > something, but there's nothing inside that would indicate any such > operation. > > OK, I admit it. I'm stumped. Perhaps it was used to duplicate disks? While I don't recall the exact details, I do remember seeing something like that, where you put a disk in. If it was formatted, it would read the contents and store it in memory; placing an unformatted disk in would cause it to format the disk and write whatever it has in memory. I saw it at a software company. -spc (Although the one I saw had a hopper for disks and would automatically feed them in for unattended operation) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 26 19:21:24 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 17:21:24 -0800 Subject: Gridlite 1040 Laptop on ePay Message-ID: <45915A14.21681.3C0CE886@cclist.sydex.com> Item 320065412704 --Chuck From ptykodi at tykodi.com Tue Dec 26 21:40:27 2006 From: ptykodi at tykodi.com (Paul Tykodi) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 22:40:27 -0500 Subject: ===== IBM system 34 SSP command === In-Reply-To: <200612251027.kBPARdAF047817@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <204401c72968$c2eeb570$0649a8c0@TCSLAPTOP01> Hi Fred, I subscribe to a mailing list called midrange-l hosted at midrange.com. It is monitored by people who most likely would know the answer to your question so I forwarded your question to the list. Here is the information, which was returned. I hope it helps with your project. date: Mon, 25 Dec 2006 13:00:09 -0500 from: "Douglas Handy" subject: Re: FW: IBM system 34 SSP command Paul/Fred, > After typing these commands, I was expecting > > something should appear on the CRT but nothing > > arrived, neither a list of files, nor an error > > message, even if I had to wait few seconds before > > the computer returns me the hand... In case it wasn't clear from Mark's response, under SSP by default Output from certain utilities including $LABEL goes to a printer (typically spooled). At any time in a session you can issue SYSLIST CRT to cause future output to redirect back to your terminal, or SYSLIST PRINTER to revert back to printed output. Using SYSLIST CRT is somewhat like piping DOS output to the MORE command. You get a screenful of information then it pauses for you to pres Enter, then you get another screenful of data. You cannot scroll the data. Unlike MORE, the pipe isn't done on a per command basis; using SYSLIST remains in effect until you change it again (or sign off). If you don't want each line of data to be truncated after 75 characters, use SYSLIST CRT,FOLD instead. > I don't really understand what they mean by the verb > > DISPLAY in the OCL statement guide. Does it mean > > DISPLAY on the CRT ? DISPLAY on the PRINTER ? > DISPLAY > > in a file ?... grrrr.... DISPLAY is not a valid OCL statement. DISPLAY is the name of one of the DFU procedures, to view a file in read-only mode. Other DFU procedures included ENTER or UPDATE or LIST. DISPLAY is similar to the LISTDATA command in i5/OS. Doug Best Regards, /Paul -- Paul Tykodi Principal Consultant TCS - Tykodi Consulting Services LLC > Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2006 14:21:52 +0100 > From: "Frederic BOSSU" > Subject: ===== IBM system 34 SSP command === > To: > Hi, > > Does anyone know a way of listing the files of a > diskette or a disk > drive of a System 34 ? I tried the following SSP > commands (normally used > on S/36 computer), but it doesn't seem to work ... > > //LOAD $LABEL > //RUN > //DISPLAY LABEL-ALL,UNIT-F1 > //END > > After typing these commands, I was expecting something > should appear on > the CRT but nothing arrived, neither a list of files, > nor an error > message, even if I had to wait few seconds before the > computer returns me > the hand... > > I don't really understand what they mean by the verb > DISPLAY in the OCL > statement guide. Does it mean DISPLAY on the CRT ? > DISPLAY on the > PRINTER ? DISPLAY in a file ?... grrrr.... > > Merry X-mas to all, and thank you for your help. > Fred. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 26 21:50:34 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:50:34 +1300 Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/23/06, JP Hindin wrote: > Although it may be specific to the S/34 alone, the S/34 cannot use a > terminal emulation card as its primary terminal/system console. You can > use it to emulate the other consoles, or any printer, but not the primary > one (in socket 0). > > So these cards are of no use to someone with an IBM machine, a couple > spools of TwinAx, but no terminal - like myself. > > Again, this may only relate to the S/34, but... FYI. Good to know... fortunately, I have a real console (that came with the system) - just missing the cable until I find my ancient box of IBM bits. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 26 21:52:42 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:52:42 +1300 Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... In-Reply-To: <458B55FF.8000402@nktelco.net> References: <4589D5D6.9020903@nktelco.net> <200612211755.47251.pat@computer-refuge.org> <458B55FF.8000402@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On 12/22/06, Charles H. Dickman wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > No, it's a coaxial pair, not twisted pair. And a Balun is > > also "necessary" because of the impedence difference between the > > cables. > > Corrected. > > What sort of cable is typically used in place of twinax when the BALUNs > are used? My recollection of the cabling at the place my baluns came from was CAT3 network cable. We reused a wad of CAT3 patch cables from their patch board as station-to-wall jack leads for our 10Mbps VoIP phones (thus saving our CAT5 cables for workstation use). Someone else here on the list might come along and say that's out of spec, but I've seen it in the real world. -ethan From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Dec 26 22:07:39 2006 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 23:07:39 -0500 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4affc5e0612262007r15a1f938na336d4e3412e2002@mail.gmail.com> On 12/24/06, William Donzelli wrote: > I am currently working on a project involving music made with > computers before MIDI. Some aspects and examples might be the old > mainframes playing tunes on band printers, minicomputers making tunes > with RFI, microcomputers controlling analog synthesizers, and so > forth. I think at this point it would be a good idea to mention the book "Musical Applications of Microprocessors" by Hal Chamberlin: a great book, sadly out of print for a long time - but a nearby University library might still have a copy. > 4) Outstanding examples of Atari and/or C64s making music. http://www.hvsc.c64.org/ has an easily accessed collection of almost every C64 tune ever written, ripped into a convenient .sid format. You can then play those using a SID emulator that just emulates the SID, rather than a whole C64. For the mac, there is a neat little app called Sidplay that is nice to use. At least this way you can easily preview the tunes before getting a real C64. > 5) Leads to artists and musicians that used classic computers in > recordings, famous or not. Decent quality MP3s would be great. If you can find old issues of a British magazine called "Electronics and Music Maker" from the early 80's, they often had profiles of musicians that used what are now classic computers. My copies are deep in storage, but I can dig them out if you are interested. > 7) Any examples of music made by computer algorithms, remixes by > computer, and so forth. Experimental works are welcome. You might try to get in touch with someone from the IEEE Technical Committee on Computer Generated Music (TCCGM) - the link is too long to paste here, just google for TCCGM. They have occasional publications (at least one special issue of the IEEE/CS magazine "Computer"), a university library might have it. > 8) Any suggestions to expand this. The computers need not be classics, > the music need not be oddball, but the results should be a little on > the weird side (for example, I do not need a Pentium 3 running > Protools making trance). There were demos and hacks for the 1541 drive playing music by knocking its heads - that might not be too hard to find. I think something for the Amiga and its drives existed as well. > While I am not looking to buy any of these machines, I am looking for > examples that are very reliable, and can travel to New Jersey for a > Saturday morning (probably). Appearance is not important, being this > will all take place in a studio. Amiga 500s should be cheap and easy to get a hold of - and have a fairly recognizable lo-fi sound (8bit resolution and variable sampling freq) C64s are also like sand on the beach... > There is also a chance I can provide a > Minimoog synthesizer, if someone can provide the microcomputer with > D/A cards (for the control voltages) and some sort of software for > making a tune. There are various outfits (such as Paia(sp?)) making midi-to-CV interfaces - is that cheating? :-) > So please go and think about this, and tell me what you think, and if > you can contribute. Certainly proper credit will be given to those > that can help out, but sorry, no money. I am not getting paid for this > either. I recommend poking around with the CSOUND language/compiler. It has changed very little over the last few decades, and thus the sound you'll get out of it will be no different than if you were to run it on old iron - except it'll run faster. Joe. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Dec 27 00:15:38 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 22:15:38 -0800 Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* In-Reply-To: <45911BFC.657.3B1A5B55@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > >On 26 Dec 2006 at 12:09, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I'm not sure why the designer of this circuit used buffers on 4 of > > the signals? I'd think these could be just directly wired. It does > > require that the drive be 720KB compatible. Many newer drives > > don't support this but it looks like the NEC drive mentioned > > is relatively easy to get. > >I suspect that the circuit is nothing more than a way to provide >enough current to sink the MSX pullups. Many 3.5" drives are rated >for 1K pullups and perhaps don't have the current drive capability. > >The other explanation is that he wanted to jumper drive select* to >ready* and had extra gates left over. Hi Chuck This may only be an issue for formatting. Normally the drive has to be spinning for some time to get the controller to lock well enough to read the headers. The MSX may be different than the Canon Cat in this respect but since there is only the one drive, I'd suspect that one might even be able to just tie off the ready line. Many machines just do some delay after issuing the motor to start. I do like the idea of something that watched the index pulses. Something with a 555 chip might work or a 123 or like. > >A better solution to the ready* problem would be to add a circuit >that derives it from the index* pulse. > >Aren't just about all 1.44MB drives 720K-compatible? You may have to >tape over the aperture on a 1.44MB floppy to get it to work, but I've >yet to see a drive (outside of the NEC 1.3MB 360 RPM 3.5" ones) that >doesn't speak 720K. I've been told that there are a few that don't support the 720KB. I'm not sure what tyhe difference is for the drive. The rpm isn't changed, just that they use FM instead of MFM. It might be that they change the size of the read data pulse or something. Pin 2 is a high density select so it must do something? Dwight > >Cheers, >Chuck > _________________________________________________________________ Get FREE Web site and company branded e-mail from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 27 00:53:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 22:53:54 -0800 Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* In-Reply-To: References: <45911BFC.657.3B1A5B55@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4591A802.28367.3D3D4F1B@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Dec 2006 at 22:15, dwight elvey wrote: > This may only be an issue for formatting. Normally the drive has to be > spinning for some time to get the controller to lock well enough to > read the headers. The MSX may be different than the Canon Cat in this > respect but since there is only the one drive, I'd suspect that one > might even be able to just tie off the ready line. Many machines just > do some delay after issuing the motor to start. I do like the idea of > something that watched the index pulses. Something with a 555 chip > might work or a 123 or like. It depends on the disk driver. Some drivers may decide to proceed on READY present and hang if there's READY without a disk in the drive. BTW, this is why the 765 on the PC has a software reset line--since the drives don't have a READY status, the 765 will hang if no index pulses are there. But if your driver doesn't put a deadman timer on the chip operations, your system could sit waiting for a diskette forever. > I've been told that there are a few that don't support the 720KB. > I'm not sure what tyhe difference is for the drive. The rpm isn't changed, > just that they use FM instead of MFM. It might be that they change the > size of the read data pulse or something. Pin 2 is a high density select > so it must do something? The drives used on the PS/2 don't use the window in the diskette jacket to switch denisty, but rather the host signal on pin 2. But there, all it takes is jumpering the pin correctly to do 720K. Most other drives use the window to specify density. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Dec 27 02:33:03 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 03:33:03 -0500 Subject: Need help with a 68K Mac board Message-ID: <00a601c72991$a0414fa0$0b01a8c0@game> I just received a Micronet Raven ProPDS card (2 NCR UWSCSI chips on an 040 PDS card for Quadra era Macs) and can't get it to work. This card was supposed to be the fastest SCSI you could get on a 68K Mac: "The new Raven Pros offer access times as low as four milliseconds (ms), and sustained writes of up to 17.2 megabytes-per-second (MBps), according to Taradalsky. MicroNet will deliver the disk arrays in two separate products: RavenProBus, a NuBus board for Quadra, Centris, or Power Macs equipped with a full-length NuBus slot; and Raven ProPDS, (Processor Direct Slot) a card for Quadra or Centris PCs with an 040PDS." Anybody ever use one of these? The card without a HD seems to hang the system when booting into OS 7.6.1 on both a Quadra 950 and a Quadra 800. The card used to be made by Storage Dimensions, MacinStor line (before it was sold to Micronet in 1994) and called either the Data Canon 040 PDS or the Digital Video SpeedArray. There seems to be 3 jumpers on the card that I have no clue about. Thanks for any help. TZ From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Dec 26 18:18:07 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 00:18:07 +0000 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4591BBBF.2060901@gjcp.net> Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > Finding a working unit for your presentation might be difficult. They > were finicky at best and I'll wager there aren't a lot of functional > systems out there anymore. Unfortunately, the world market for $100K > synths (back when that was real money) was easily saturated and NED went > belly-up in the late 80s. A few years ago there was one for sale in a Glasgow music shop for ?1000. It was, as far as I could tell, fully loaded with FM cards, and a couple of sampling cards. I wish I'd blown my student loan on that. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Dec 26 18:54:30 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 00:54:30 +0000 Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... In-Reply-To: References: <200612172043.52682.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4586018C.2010201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4591C446.4030405@gjcp.net> Tothwolf wrote: > I have a whole box of them. I think a bunch of them are reversible > ISA/MCA cards too. This sounds intriguing... What do you mean, "reversible"? I'm picturing an odd-looking card with an MCA edge connector on one side and an ISA on the other, and maybe some way of swapping the faceplate around. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Dec 27 02:01:56 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 08:01:56 +0000 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0612262007r15a1f938na336d4e3412e2002@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0612262007r15a1f938na336d4e3412e2002@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45922874.4040303@gjcp.net> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > There are various outfits (such as Paia(sp?)) making midi-to-CV > interfaces - is that cheating? :-) It's just 1V/Oct normal CV stuff. Easy enough to use an R/2R ladder and an opamp for the scaling. Look for a workshop manual for any 80s analogue/digital crossover synth (such as the infamous Roland TB-303 or SH-101) for an example of such a creature. I have a couple of parallel I/O cards for my PDP-11 that I'd planned to do just this very thing with. Haven't done it yet, though. Gordon From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Dec 27 03:26:55 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 01:26:55 -0800 Subject: Need help with a 68K Mac board In-Reply-To: <00a601c72991$a0414fa0$0b01a8c0@game> References: <00a601c72991$a0414fa0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <45923C5F.6030500@msm.umr.edu> Teo Zenios wrote: > > >Anybody ever use one of these? The card without a HD seems to hang the system when booting into OS 7.6.1 on both a Quadra 950 and a Quadra 800. > If there is no disk attached, and there is no termination on a scsi bus (single ended) the bus is held reset. Assuming things: 1. initiator end termination optional: nothing pulls up the bus, so you need to put on a cable with three connectors, middle one connected to the board, and terminators on each of the others. 2. figure out whether the jumpers enable termination on the card, and turn it on. even in this case you may get a bus reset, and have no joy, initiator hangs forever waiting for reset to clear. if there is initiator termination, you still need to attach a terminator to make a properly terminated SE bus. 3. modern card, auto terminates, card firmware should figure out whether one or two terminations are required and apply them. even if you attach a drive, with proper termination, you may still have no initiator end termination if the jumpers are wrong, and have problems booting. Note that everywhere I say initiator termination, I mean termination on the card. This may also take the form of empty component sockets, which take some sort of resistor packages to supply the termination, or even worse some custom thing that was pulled for some reason. SCSI is designed to allow the initator to be in the middle of the device chain, should you need to wire it that way, so someone may have pulled termination on the card. Also, if someone rigged an internal drive (assuming they could wire it) they would have no termination on the card if there were external devices. You would have a bus for example of when the controller was pulled. >The card used to be made by Storage Dimensions, MacinStor line (before it was sold to Micronet in 1994) and called either the Data Canon 040 PDS or the Digital Video SpeedArray. There seems to be 3 jumpers on the card that I have no clue about. >Thanks for any help. > > > >TZ > > > > > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 03:42:35 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:42:35 +1300 Subject: S/36 is back on ebay... In-Reply-To: <4591C446.4030405@gjcp.net> References: <200612172043.52682.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4586018C.2010201@gmail.com> <4591C446.4030405@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 12/27/06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > This sounds intriguing... What do you mean, "reversible"? > > I'm picturing an odd-looking card with an MCA edge connector on one side > and an ISA on the other, and maybe some way of swapping the faceplate > around. Exactly. I've seen some MCA Ethernet NICs with an ISA edge on the opposite edge from the MCA side, but I can't remember the model number. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 27 05:57:03 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 05:57:03 -0600 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <4591A1AC.1040809@gjcp.net> References: <4591A1AC.1040809@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45925F8F.6040307@yahoo.co.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Yes, but there's a point centred around the early 1990s when cars were > sophisticated enough to have relatively clean emissions, simple enough > to repair with ordinary tools, and not have things like airbags that are > of questionable use and really really horrible to try and dispose of. I suspect that both Tony and Jos are right. Note that Jos said 'newer' car and didn't place any kind of number on just *how* new :) I totally agree with you, Gordon - the 'sweet spot' in terms of simplicity versus efficiency seemed to be in the early 90s and anyone buying a car since then has probably been making the problem worse rather than better. The whole 'emissions at point of manufacture and disposal' does get conveniently forgotten by the majority of people, though. I think there's what, nine years of landfill left in the UK - after which existing sites will be full and the law prohibits opening of any new ones. Yet there's virtually nobody either trying to reuse the technology that we already have or making new technology that's long-lived and easily repairable. cheers J. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 27 08:13:55 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 14:13:55 -0000 (GMT) Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* In-Reply-To: <200612260152.kBQ1qLoF015587@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200612260152.kBQ1qLoF015587@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4402.192.168.0.2.1167228835.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Tue, December 26, 2006 01:52, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > > Adrian...Not to worry about finding a working Lisa-1...My Lisa-1 came with > enough spare parts to build a second Lisa-1 (except for the very rare > Twiggys). Sweet! My only hope these days is that someone finds one in their attic/basement/shed/garage and decides to donate it to my museum rather than stick it on epay.... Aaah, christmas dreams :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Dec 27 09:45:23 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:45:23 +0100 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay Message-ID: <45929513.2010504@bluewin.ch> Lucky strike today : 10 swiss francs (7.50 USD) got me a ADM-3a in very reasonable cosmetic state, with the dip-switch cover still intact, and with the optional numeric keyboard. On opening , I saw the unit even included the RG512 graphics option! Not is all well , the crt has a severe case of moulding. This was discussed before, I believe changing the CRT was the only good option ? The unit also does not work. This might have to do with the can of Coke that seems to have been emptied onto the keyboard and surroundings... I will use my normal cleaning procedure of toothbrush and tapwater, and letting things dry naturally. Anyone have suggestions for the specific case of semi-dried Coke ? Jos DReesen From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 27 09:48:36 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 08:48:36 -0700 Subject: 3270 SPM In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 26 Dec 2006 14:38:51 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Al Kossow writes: > The document part number is GA23-0059 > > I probably have at least one rev of this, will see if I can find it, though > I see rev -07 is still in print. > > http://www-1.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=pub1ga23005907 What do I use to view a .boo file? (IBM BOOK BKMGR format) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 09:49:06 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 10:49:06 -0500 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > How about a first-class synthesizer? The New England Digital Synclavier > was built around a bit slice AM29xx minicomputer running their ABEL > operating system. I would rather not, unless it was an NED minicomputer (they made them for the military before the Synclavier) doing the music. However, I do not know anyone that has an NED mini. In fact, I am not really going to be picky about what mini makes the tunes, but I think the ones with core memory do a better job (more RFI). A PDP-8/e would be ideal. The key is that I would like to do this live. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 10:00:54 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:00:54 -0500 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0612262007r15a1f938na336d4e3412e2002@mail.gmail.com> References: <4affc5e0612262007r15a1f938na336d4e3412e2002@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > http://www.hvsc.c64.org/ has an easily accessed collection of almost > every C64 tune ever written, ripped into a convenient .sid format. > You can then play those using a SID emulator that just emulates the > SID, rather than a whole C64. For the mac, there is a neat little app > called Sidplay that is nice to use. At least this way you can easily > preview the tunes before getting a real C64. I would be happy to leave most of the C64 music selection to the guy that demos the machine. I think I still have a C64 emulator on this machine, when I wanted to play Castles of Dr. Creep. > If you can find old issues of a British magazine called "Electronics > and Music Maker" from the early 80's, they often had profiles of > musicians that used what are now classic computers. My copies are > deep in storage, but I can dig them out if you are interested. I am more interested in some of the more oddball releases from the 1970s, like Roger Powell's Air Pocket, which credits an Altair system on the album. By early to mid 1980s, plenty of artists were using microcomputers for sequencing, so by then, they were a fairly established studio tool. > You might try to get in touch with someone from the IEEE Technical > Committee on Computer Generated Music (TCCGM) - the link is too long > to paste here, just google for TCCGM. They have occasional > publications (at least one special issue of the IEEE/CS magazine > "Computer"), a university library might have it. Yes, I need to look into them, thanks. > There were demos and hacks for the 1541 drive playing music by > knocking its heads - that might not be too hard to find. I think > something for the Amiga and its drives existed as well. Very interested in those as well, as I figure doing the same with 14 inch drives is unrealistic. > Amiga 500s should be cheap and easy to get a hold of - and have a > fairly recognizable lo-fi sound (8bit resolution and variable sampling > freq) C64s are also like sand on the beach... Yes, and I hope that someone (MARCH?) would want to show off a bit. On-Air praise and kudos to those that do! > There are various outfits (such as Paia(sp?)) making midi-to-CV > interfaces - is that cheating? :-) Sort of... -- Will From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Dec 27 10:55:23 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:55:23 -0500 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: <45929513.2010504@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <200612271601.kBRG1MjY018812@hosting.monisys.ca> > Lucky strike today : > 10 swiss francs (7.50 USD) got me a ADM-3a in very reasonable cosmetic > state, with the dip-switch cover still intact, and with the optional > numeric keyboard. Always had a soft-spot for this little terminal. > Anyone have suggestions for the specific case of semi-dried Coke ? Not other than to wash it out with clean water, and dry under a fan for a good long time. I use a fan positioned far enough back to get gentle airflow over the entire unit/area, not a directed blast - I find that without air movement, you will often get hidden areas where the water will stay for a suurprising long time. Main reason I responded is to let you know that I have both the operators and service manuals for the ADM3A scanned and posted on my site. It's in the Altair area under "documentation" (yeah, I know it's not super obvious - thats my own Altair which I've had since the 70s, and it's had the ADM3A with it for most of it's life). Service manual has schematics - it's not overly complex and is relatively easy to fix. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 27 10:03:22 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 09:03:22 -0700 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:45:23 +0100. <45929513.2010504@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: In article <45929513.2010504 at bluewin.ch>, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel writes: > Lucky strike today : > 10 swiss francs (7.50 USD) got me a ADM-3a in very reasonable cosmetic > state, with the dip-switch cover still intact, and with the optional > numeric keyboard. > > On opening , I saw the unit even included the RG512 graphics option! Sweet! Is it the yellow enclosure or the blue enclosure? My ADM-3A is the yellow enclosure which seems to be less common and does *not* have the graphics option. What's in the graphics option anyway? Block character graphics? I hadn't heard of this. > Not is all well , the crt has a severe case of moulding. This was > discussed before, I believe changing the CRT was the only good option ? Some sites talk about removing the face plate and cleaning it and reattaching it, but I've only seen sites talk about this as a possibility, not any stories from anyone who's actually done it. I think replacing the CRT would be preferable. > The unit also does not work. This might have to do with the can of Coke > that seems to have been emptied onto the keyboard and surroundings... My ADM-3A also does not power up; I suspect the power supply circuit but haven't diagnosed it any further than that. > Anyone have suggestions for the specific case of semi-dried Coke ? Perhaps a steam cleaner would make quicker work of dissolving the dried syrup so it can be sponged off? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 27 10:03:42 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 10:03:42 -0600 Subject: 3270 SPM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4592995E.8010204@mdrconsult.com> Richard wrote: > In article , > Al Kossow writes: > >> The document part number is GA23-0059 >> >> I probably have at least one rev of this, will see if I can find it, though >> I see rev -07 is still in print. >> >> http://www-1.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=pub1ga23005907 > > What do I use to view a .boo file? (IBM BOOK BKMGR format) IBM BookReader, of course! ;) http://www-1.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?doc=4001220&org=SW&rs=4 If Win2000 is too new, I have the OS/2 and WFW versions somewhere. Doc From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Dec 27 06:09:43 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 12:09:43 +0000 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <45925F8F.6040307@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4591A1AC.1040809@gjcp.net> <45925F8F.6040307@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45926287.6070109@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > The whole 'emissions at point of manufacture and disposal' does get > conveniently forgotten by the majority of people, though. I think > there's what, nine years of landfill left in the UK - after which > existing sites will be full and the law prohibits opening of any new > ones. Yet there's virtually nobody either trying to reuse the technology > that we already have or making new technology that's long-lived and > easily repairable. Well yes. And let's not forget that taken over the entire item lifetime, a 3.5 litre Rangerover will be around 10 times cleaner than a Prius. Why? Because it has a design life of around 20 years rather than 5 years, and hasn't got so much nasty plastic and batteries and the like to be manufactured and disposed of. Gordon From ptykodi at tykodi.com Wed Dec 27 10:08:40 2006 From: ptykodi at tykodi.com (Paul Tykodi) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:08:40 -0500 Subject: IBM 3270 Data Stream Programmer's Reference In-Reply-To: <200612271418.kBREHkGG084700@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <237101c729d1$499f9f90$0649a8c0@TCSLAPTOP01> Hi Richard, IBM offers this manual for free in BookManager electronic format. The URL is as follows: http://www.elink.ibmlink.ibm.com/publications/servlet/pbi.wss?PAG=C11&SSN=06 L0Q0001567125565&TRL=TXT&WRD=&PBL=GA23-0059-07&LST=ALL&RPP=10&BTN%3DSRH.x=10 &BTN%3DSRH.y=13 HTH Best Regards, /Paul -- Paul Tykodi Principal Consultant TCS - Tykodi Consulting Services LLC > Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:22:48 -0700 > From: Richard > Subject: IBM 3270 Data Stream Programmer's Reference > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > > Does anyone have one of these they could scan? > -- From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 27 10:12:54 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 09:12:54 -0700 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:55:23 -0500. <200612271601.kBRG1MjY018812@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: In article <200612271601.kBRG1MjY018812 at hosting.monisys.ca>, "Dave Dunfield" writes: > Service manual has schematics - it's not overly complex and is relatively > easy to fix. Has anyone here diagnosed a "no power" condition on these? What was the most likely point of failure? The maintenance manual goes into all kinds of detail about the logic board but has nary a thing to say about the power supply, AFAICT. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 27 10:52:17 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:52:17 -0500 Subject: Hazeltine 1510 docs? Message-ID: <2E49F6D8-E60E-4087-897C-BDB54FA0F09E@neurotica.com> I have a Hazeltine 1510 which needs some TLC with a soldering iron, but I lack schematics...does anyone have schematics for this terminal? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 27 11:02:42 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 09:02:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Dec 27, 6 11:00:54 am" Message-ID: <200612271702.kBRH2gi9017800@floodgap.com> > I am more interested in some of the more oddball releases from the > 1970s, like Roger Powell's Air Pocket, which credits an Altair system > on the album. By early to mid 1980s, plenty of artists were using > microcomputers for sequencing, so by then, they were a fairly > established studio tool. One of the Steely Dan albums (Gaucho, I think) credits a Tandy Model 100 IIRC. If you're interested, I'll try to dig up the liner notes. > > There were demos and hacks for the 1541 drive playing music by > > knocking its heads - that might not be too hard to find. I think > > something for the Amiga and its drives existed as well. > > Very interested in those as well, as I figure doing the same with 14 > inch drives is unrealistic. I have an .lnx format "Drivecomposer" that will allow you to write arbitrary music on a 1541, and I have the 1541 Daisy-Daisy demo somewhere if you don't have this already. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- We likes it wet and *wriggling!* -- Gollum, on food, "The Two Towers" ------ From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Dec 27 11:19:45 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:19:45 -0600 Subject: OT: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <45926287.6070109@gjcp.net> References: <4591A1AC.1040809@gjcp.net> <45925F8F.6040307@yahoo.co.uk> <45926287.6070109@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4592AB31.9060307@brutman.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Well yes. And let's not forget that taken over the entire item > lifetime, a 3.5 litre Rangerover will be around 10 times cleaner than a > Prius. Why? Because it has a design life of around 20 years rather > than 5 years, and hasn't got so much nasty plastic and batteries and the > like to be manufactured and disposed of. > > Gordon > > Have any data to back it up? Is there a study that takes into account recycling the materials, the intangible costs of the CO2 being released into the air, etc.? What you said sounds good. But it isn't necessarily accurate. Without a full blown study that tried to take *all* factors into account, you can't possibly know. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Dec 27 12:15:13 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:15:13 -0300 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay References: <45929513.2010504@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <03df01c729e3$90322970$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I will use my normal cleaning procedure of toothbrush and tapwater, and > letting things dry naturally. > Anyone have suggestions for the specific case of semi-dried Coke ? Well, I cleaned an entire HP Laserjet 4 Plus of some 2 liters of coke. I could write kilobytes of text, but simple thing: Put everything submersed into water and a bit of a mild soap. Let it soak for one hour, take it off and dismantle EVERYTHING in a sunny day. Let it on the sun all day long to dry. YMMV. This is what I do to my M series keyboards (IBM Rulez!). BTW, do you know how to clean burnt marks on CRTs? Let them facing the sun for one, two or three hours, anything will vanish usually. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Dec 27 11:20:08 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 17:20:08 +0000 Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4592AB48.3040205@dunnington.plus.com> dwight elvey wrote: > I've been told that there are a few that don't support the 720KB. > I'm not sure what tyhe difference is for the drive. The rpm isn't changed, > just that they use FM instead of MFM. It might be that they change the > size of the read data pulse or something. It's not FM. The format commonly referred to as 720K is MFM (double density), but at half the data rate of the HD format (which is also MFM), and that's why the write currents are different and the disks are different coercivities. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dave06a at dunfield.com Wed Dec 27 12:25:45 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 13:25:45 -0500 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:55:23 -0500. <200612271601.kBRG1MjY018812@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200612271731.kBRHVQFe003645@hosting.monisys.ca> > > Service manual has schematics - it's not overly complex and is relatively > > easy to fix. > > Has anyone here diagnosed a "no power" condition on these? > > What was the most likely point of failure? > > The maintenance manual goes into all kinds of detail about the logic > board but has nary a thing to say about the power supply, AFAICT. The power supply is a very simple transformer/regulator linear supply. It is described in section 4.3.18 on page 4-21 of the ADM3A Maintenance Manual, which is page 37 of my PDF. The full schematic of the supply is located near the end in drawing #129471 which is page 103 of my PDF. Are you sure the terminal is completely power-dead, and not just "not working" - Measure the power rails of the logic ICs and also look for the filiment glow from the CRT - these indicate the 5v and 12v supplies (respectively) are working. Assuming it is power supply: I'd begin by disconnecting P3 and P4 and measuring the output of the transformer windings and confirm that they are close to the values listed on the Schematic. If no voltage on any windings, check the fuse, switch and associated wiring between the mains and the transformer. A good fast check is to measure resistance across the AC mains plug (not plugged in of course) - it should read infinite with the switch OFF and very low with the switch ON . If voltages are present but low in all or some windings, check the connections to/from the transformer. If only one output is affected and connections are good, the transformer may be shorted or open. Powering through 40w light bulb may reveal shorted windings - with P3/P4 disconnected the Xfmr should draw almost no current - if the light bulb glows there may be a hort. Open windings can be checked in non-powered state with an Ohm-meter. If AC voltages are OK, I would reconnect P3/P4 and check the outputs of the full wave bridge rectifiers - they should be at least 2V above the rated output of the connected regulators (and will probably be higher). You can check them at the bridges, or at the input side of the regulators. If voltages are low, rectifier may be bad, or you may have a shorted regulator. A scope can be handy here as examing the shape of the signal input to the regulator it will let you see if one leg of the rectifier is shorted/open. If inputs to the regulators are OK, check the outputs - these should be very close (ie: almost exactly) the rated output voltages of the regulators. If too high, you have a bad regulator (and may have damaged other components). If too low, either the regulator is bad or the circuitry beyond it is drawing too much current and causing it to shut down. A thermal probe can be very handy, most of this stuff heats up if there is excessive current draw. Once you are well away from the mains, fingers can be used, but be warned that things can get *VERY* hot, enough to cause burns. Your nose and ears are also good tools, as "hot smells" and "sizzling sounds" are things you should pay attention to. Powering the terminal though a high wattage (100w or more) light bulb can minimize damage if components are shorted - the bulb lights and acts as a current limiter. If the bulb remains glowing brightly after the terminal is switched on, power it off and find the cause of the excessive current draw. WEAR EYE PROTECTION WHEN WORKING ON POWER SUPPLIES! I've had shorted regulators explode with enough force to penetrate a wall beside my workbench. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 27 11:31:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 10:31:15 -0700 Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:15:13 -0300. <03df01c729e3$90322970$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: In article <03df01c729e3$90322970$f0fea8c0 at alpha>, "Alexandre Souza" writes: > BTW, do you know how to clean burnt marks on CRTs? Let them facing the > sun for one, two or three hours, anything will vanish usually. Are you saying that "phosphor screen burn" on a CRT can be fixed by a strong exposure to sunlight? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 27 11:42:07 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 10:42:07 -0700 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 27 Dec 2006 13:25:45 -0500. <200612271731.kBRHVQFe003645@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: In article <200612271731.kBRHVQFe003645 at hosting.monisys.ca>, "Dave Dunfield" writes: > The power supply is a very simple transformer/regulator linear supply. > It is described in section 4.3.18 on page 4-21 of the ADM3A Maintenance > Manual, which is page 37 of my PDF. Great, I'll look at that when I get around to refurbishing this guy. > Are you sure the terminal is completely power-dead, and not just > "not working" - Measure the power rails of the logic ICs and also > look for the filiment glow from the CRT - these indicate the 5v and > 12v supplies (respectively) are working. I'm not sure of anything yet other than an inspection of components didn't reveal any obvious failures and a power-on test didn't result in a cursor or other indicators of proper functioning. I didn't hear anything indicating the CRT was being properly driven. > Assuming it is power supply: [good diag info snipped] Thanks for the tips, I'll probably come back to the list with more questions when the refurbishing task for this guy bubbles to the top of my pile of roundtuits :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 27 11:59:12 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 09:59:12 -0800 Subject: OT: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <4592AB31.9060307@brutman.com> References: , <45926287.6070109@gjcp.net>, <4592AB31.9060307@brutman.com> Message-ID: <459243F0.5859.3F9E66CB@cclist.sydex.com> On Christmas day, the lower element on our 26-year old built-in kitchen oven went out. Fortunately, we could finish cooking dinner by using the upper broiler element, although it took much longer. So I was faced with the issue of (a) replacing an older oven or (b) repairing it. New ovens have electronic controls and can be as complex to operate as a VCR. Our old oven has a mechanical clock and simple controls. I opted to order a new element. When thinking about what a hostile environment oven controls live in (heat, moistore, grease, smoke), I had nightmares of repairing a new all-electronic unit years down the road. I have the same feeling about automatic dishwashers and electronic controls. Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 27 12:07:42 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 10:07:42 -0800 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: <45929513.2010504@bluewin.ch> References: <45929513.2010504@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: At 4:45 PM +0100 12/27/06, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: >The unit also does not work. This might have to do with the can of >Coke that seems to have been emptied onto the keyboard and >surroundings... > >I will use my normal cleaning procedure of toothbrush and tapwater, >and letting things dry naturally. >Anyone have suggestions for the specific case of semi-dried Coke ? About 10 years ago, I had to clean up a Mac SE/30 and keyboard that met with a glass of juice, and IIRC, some "friendly" cats. I dumped everything in my parents deepsink, let it soak good in hot water, then rinsed it good under the tap water. Then I stuck it in the food dryer they made in the 70's (the size of a small refrigerator) for a day. Worked just fine after that (well the SE/30 needed the fuse that blew when the juice was dumped replaced). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 27 12:12:35 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 12:12:35 -0600 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: References: <45929513.2010504@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4592B793.4030408@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 4:45 PM +0100 12/27/06, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: >> >> I will use my normal cleaning procedure of toothbrush and tapwater, >> and letting things dry naturally. >> Anyone have suggestions for the specific case of semi-dried Coke ? > > About 10 years ago, I had to clean up a Mac SE/30 and keyboard that met > with a glass of juice, and IIRC, some "friendly" cats. I dumped > everything in my parents deepsink, let it soak good in hot water, then > rinsed it good under the tap water. Then I stuck it in the food dryer > they made in the 70's (the size of a small refrigerator) for a day. > Worked just fine after that (well the SE/30 needed the fuse that blew > when the juice was dumped replaced). Cue the dishwasher thread.... Doc From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed Dec 27 12:17:03 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:17:03 -0000 Subject: OT: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance References: , <45926287.6070109@gjcp.net>, <4592AB31.9060307@brutman.com> <459243F0.5859.3F9E66CB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <005301c729e3$359942a0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> From: "Chuck Guzis" > On Christmas day, the lower element on our 26-year old built-in > kitchen oven went out. Fortunately, we could finish cooking dinner > by using the upper broiler element, although it took much longer. > > So I was faced with the issue of (a) replacing an older oven or (b) > repairing it. New ovens have electronic controls and can be as > complex to operate as a VCR. Our old oven has a mechanical clock and > simple controls. > > I opted to order a new element. When thinking about what a hostile > environment oven controls live in (heat, moistore, grease, smoke), I > had nightmares of repairing a new all-electronic unit years down the > road. > > I have the same feeling about automatic dishwashers and electronic > controls. > > Cheers, > Chuck > We had a washing machine with an electronic controller. It was such a pain that the replacement had to have a mechanical timer - vital if you live somewhere with unreliable mains, the electronic ones reset on power off, a mechanical one just picks up where it left off. Jim. From billdeg at degnanco.com Wed Dec 27 12:25:37 2006 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 13:25:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: <200612271806.kBRI5rmt088963@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612271806.kBRI5rmt088963@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <53083.207.245.121.210.1167243937.squirrel@webmail.degnanco.net> Assuming you don't disassemble the unit so that you can clean the non-electronic parts more thoroughly; When you let the unit dry, try to tilt it almost upside-down so that the evaporating water passes over the non-electronic under surface of the keyboard enclosure. Bill Degnan > > I will use my normal cleaning procedure of toothbrush and tapwater, and letting things dry naturally. > Anyone have suggestions for the specific case of semi-dried Coke ? > > Jos DReesen From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 27 12:26:59 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 12:26:59 -0600 Subject: OT: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <005301c729e3$359942a0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> References: , <45926287.6070109@gjcp.net>, <4592AB31.9060307@brutman.com> <459243F0.5859.3F9E66CB@cclist.sydex.com> <005301c729e3$359942a0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: <4592BAF3.9010209@yahoo.co.uk> Jim Beacon wrote: > We had a washing machine with an electronic controller. It was such a pain > that the replacement had to have a mechanical timer - vital if you live > somewhere with unreliable mains, the electronic ones reset on power off, a > mechanical one just picks up where it left off. Give it a couple of years. Washing machines will come with a USB port and you'll be expected to hook them to your UPS. And they'll probably be able to play music. From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed Dec 27 12:50:32 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:50:32 -0000 Subject: OT: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance References: , <45926287.6070109@gjcp.net>, <4592AB31.9060307@brutman.com> <459243F0.5859.3F9E66CB@cclist.sydex.com><005301c729e3$359942a0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> <4592BAF3.9010209@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <006201c729e7$e2ff12e0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 6:26 PM Subject: Re: OT: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance > Jim Beacon wrote: > > We had a washing machine with an electronic controller. It was such a pain > > that the replacement had to have a mechanical timer - vital if you live > > somewhere with unreliable mains, the electronic ones reset on power off, a > > mechanical one just picks up where it left off. > > Give it a couple of years. Washing machines will come with a USB port and > you'll be expected to hook them to your UPS. And they'll probably be able to > play music. > That would be funny if it wasn't true :-( Jim. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Dec 27 13:11:04 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:11:04 -0800 Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* In-Reply-To: <4592AB48.3040205@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: >From: Pete Turnbull > >dwight elvey wrote: > >>I've been told that there are a few that don't support the 720KB. >>I'm not sure what tyhe difference is for the drive. The rpm isn't changed, >>just that they use FM instead of MFM. It might be that they change the >>size of the read data pulse or something. > >It's not FM. The format commonly referred to as 720K is MFM (double >density), but at half the data rate of the HD format (which is also MFM), >and that's why the write currents are different and the disks are different >coercivities. Ahaa. I'd thought that it might be different coercivities. I've been using 1.44M disk in my Cat without issues. It has a disk test mode that writes patterns and reads. It was able to run for several hours without failure. I know that 1.2Meg disk don't work well in 360K drives but the drive they used in the Cat must be more forgiving. I wonder if when replacing the drive, it might make sense to have the HD mode selected when using 1.44M disk, even though writing with 720K rate? I suspect it should work well. When I rig up another disk, I'll give it a try. A little more write current shouldn't cause too much issue at the slower rate of data. I don't have to worry about write through, the Cat only uses a single side. Dwight > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York _________________________________________________________________ Fixing up the home? Live Search can help http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=WLMTAG From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Dec 27 13:19:30 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:19:30 -0800 Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* In-Reply-To: <4591A802.28367.3D3D4F1B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >From: "Chuck Guzis" > ---snip--- >It depends on the disk driver. Some drivers may decide to proceed on >READY present and hang if there's READY without a disk in the drive. >BTW, this is why the 765 on the PC has a software reset line--since >the drives don't have a READY status, the 765 will hang if no index >pulses are there. But if your driver doesn't put a deadman timer on >the chip operations, your system could sit waiting for a diskette >forever. > ---snip--- Hi Chuck This shouldn't be an issue for the Cat. It doesn't make much sense to run it without having a disk in the drive. The complete machine state is saved on the disk( it does have a small battery backed RAM ). Still, things like the text work in progress and any Forth words that have been added are saved to the disk and restored on powerup. That is why the drive is only single sided. It only needs to save 256K. When I get some time, I'll run some experiments, using other drives. The fellow that I'm communicating with may beat me to it. He has several Cats with bad drives. It seems that he is still using them for business purposes. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Dec 27 13:23:58 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:23:58 -0800 Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: Richard > >In article <03df01c729e3$90322970$f0fea8c0 at alpha>, > "Alexandre Souza" writes: > > > BTW, do you know how to clean burnt marks on CRTs? Let them facing >the > > sun for one, two or three hours, anything will vanish usually. > >Are you saying that "phosphor screen burn" on a CRT can be fixed by a >strong exposure to sunlight? Hi I'd never heard this before? Is it that it brings the entire CRT to the same level of burn or actually restores the phosphor? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Find sales, coupons, and free shipping, all in one place! ?MSN Shopping Sales & Deals http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctid=198,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200639 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Dec 27 13:36:46 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:36:46 -0800 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: <45929513.2010504@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: >From: Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel ---snip--- > >I will use my normal cleaning procedure of toothbrush and tapwater, and >letting things dry naturally. >Anyone have suggestions for the specific case of semi-dried Coke ? Hi Jos Like most, putting it under water for a while will disolve the Coke. Inlike others, I recommend heating the unit up to dry. I recommend using an oven but be careful. You only want to heat to about 120F. Also, don't have any light of site path between the heating element, if using an electric oven, and the board. The radiant heat can melt plastics. Putting it on a cooky pan with a loose cover of foil should work. Preheat the oven, they tend to overshoot on the first cycle. Most don't have a scale that goes that low so a cooking thermometer is a good idea. If it was summer, I'd jsut suggest leaving it in the car on a hot day. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Type your favorite song.? Get a customized station.? Try MSN Radio powered by Pandora. http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 From trag at io.com Wed Dec 27 13:38:17 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 13:38:17 -0600 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2006 16:06:29 -0700 >From: Richard >In article <45916C11.95F67729 at rain.org>, > Marvin Johnston writes: > >> [...] My guess (now) >> is that computermkt has a pretty good handle on what an item *can* >>bring, and >> prices his stuff accordingly. [...] > >I don't see how an Atari 800 is going to bring $300 when they sell >routinely on ebay for $30. (or whatever, insert actual price here.) > >He knows this because he'll *buy* the item from ebay for $30 and then >turn it around and list it at $300. > >It looks like the majority of his stuff expires unsold and the stuff >that is selling is best offer below his ask. > >He must have really cheap storage space, a ready supply of old boxes >and lots of free time on his hands for this model to work effectivley. This is a bit off-topic for the thread, but deals with the same philosophy of selling question. Sager had 128 pin 13 X 13 PGA sockets for $3 each a few years ago. They have over 2500 of them in stock. I didn't buy any because I was not about to start the project I have in mind for them. Now they are priced at over $17 each. They still have over 2500 of them in stock. As far as I can tell, they aren't selling any of them, but they have upped the price by almost a factor of 6. How does this business practice make sense? Can they take a larger tax write-off when/if they dispose of them, if they list them at a high price for a while? Surely any tax benefit is based on their cost? Do they think a large corporate customer or the military will suddenly find a desperate need for 68030 sockets? The 128 pin socket fits the 68030 processor. I'm minded to re-design the Daystar adapter for the Macintosh IIcx to physically fit in the SE/30. But I would need a hundred or two of the PGA sockets to make it a viable project. At $3 each it was doable. At $17 each the cost of sockets would be more than what most folks would want to pay (I think) for the finished product. Jeff Walther From ksr at krother.com Wed Dec 27 13:54:23 2006 From: ksr at krother.com (Ken Rother) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 14:54:23 -0500 Subject: Digital Proffesional 350 References: <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <027801c729f0$d0151180$0401a8c0@KSRPC> Hi, I am trying to bring a Digital Proffesional 350 back to life. I have diagnosotics on the screen (VR201) that indicate everything might be ok but I need a boot diskette. Does anyone have any idea where I might be able to find diskette images or actual diskettes for this machine? Thanks in Advance Ken From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 27 13:58:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:58:45 -0800 Subject: The *meow* auction we've all been waiting for *meow* In-Reply-To: References: <4592AB48.3040205@dunnington.plus.com>, Message-ID: <45925FF5.11886.400BDB2A@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Dec 2006 at 11:11, dwight elvey wrote: > Ahaa. I'd thought that it might be different coercivities. I've been using > 1.44M disk in my Cat without issues. It has a disk test mode that writes > patterns and reads. It was able to run for several hours without failure. > I know that 1.2Meg disk don't work well in 360K drives but the drive they > used in the Cat must be more forgiving. You can use 1.44Ms as 720Ks because they're far closer in coercivity than 360Ks and 1.2Ms. However, it makes sense to cover over the HD sensing hole in 1.44Ms before using them, as you never know when you'll try to read them in a drive capable of 1.44M which senses the hole. Don't try to use a 1.44M drive in HD mode to record 720K--it won't work reliably--I believe there's some high-pass filtering involved in auto-sensing drives that will get in the way. To illustrate this, try this experiment: Cover over the density-sensing hole on a 1.44M and format it up as 720K in an auto-sensing 1.44MB drive on a PC-- write some files to it. Now, remove the density sense cover and try to read it. It won't read reliably. The PC is unaware of the density hole--it's essentially blind to what density the drive thinks the diskette is. I have seen early operating systems that use the ready/not ready transition to discover diskette changes, but these have mostly been on 8" drives. On 5.25" drives, I've written drivers that poll a drive (with motor on or off) to sense the write-protect status change as a diskette is inserted or removed. This was tied into a scan of the open file table to flash a display message that essentially said "Put that back!". Not quite up to a locking door latch or auto eject drives, but it worked very well. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Dec 27 14:05:15 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 14:05:15 -0600 Subject: OT: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <006201c729e7$e2ff12e0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> References: , <45926287.6070109@gjcp.net>, <4592AB31.9060307@brutman.com> <459243F0.5859.3F9E66CB@cclist.sydex.com><005301c729e3$359942a0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> <4592BAF3.9010209@yahoo.co.uk> <006201c729e7$e2ff12e0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> Message-ID: <4592D1FB.8040507@mdrconsult.com> Jim Beacon wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jules Richardson" >> Give it a couple of years. Washing machines will come with a USB port and >> you'll be expected to hook them to your UPS. And they'll probably be able > to >> play music. >> > That would be funny if it wasn't true :-( I was in Fry's last year ad they had an "internet refrigerator". There was a touchscreen PC built into the door. I disremember whether it was ethernet or wireless, but the thing was set up for kiosk-style web browsing and email. As far as I could tell, the computer had nothing to do with running the fridge, but it was still a... "chilling" sight. I'll just get my hat. Doc From wizard at voyager.net Wed Dec 27 14:07:24 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:07:24 -0500 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: <03df01c729e3$90322970$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <45929513.2010504@bluewin.ch> <03df01c729e3$90322970$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <1167250045.32520.17.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2006-12-27 at 15:15 -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > I will use my normal cleaning procedure of toothbrush and tapwater, and > > letting things dry naturally. > > Anyone have suggestions for the specific case of semi-dried Coke ? > > Well, I cleaned an entire HP Laserjet 4 Plus of some 2 liters of coke. > > I could write kilobytes of text, but simple thing: Put everything > submersed into water and a bit of a mild soap. Let it soak for one hour, > take it off and dismantle EVERYTHING in a sunny day. Let it on the sun all > day long to dry. YMMV. This is what I do to my M series keyboards (IBM > Rulez!). This is similar to the procedure I use. After the soaking, however, I run warmish tap water over it to remove any traces of soap. I then drizzle distilled water over it to remove the calcium in tap water, and give it a quick immersion in an alcohol bath. I do this, generally, for keyboards that separate. I don't like the picture of trying to dip an ADM-3. Slippery little buggers when soapy... > BTW, do you know how to clean burnt marks on CRTs? Let them facing the > sun for one, two or three hours, anything will vanish usually. Sorry, I can't buy this. Phosphor material is burnt OFF the glass by "burn-in," and no amount of sun will paint more on it. You must be talking about something else... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 14:12:55 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 09:12:55 +1300 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: References: <20061217074049.3c605278@bluto.i16.net> Message-ID: On 12/18/06, Richard wrote: > What about a Quonset Hut? I see them for sale at the State Fair here > in Utah and they seem pretty cheap, relatively speaking. I have a 32'x48' quonset hut at my farm... it's nice that it was there when I bought the place in 1998, but as another poster pointed out, it's not the most efficient use of available square footage. I'm going to be looking through the remainder off this thread with some interest - I have wanted to build a ~2500 sq ft building next to the quonset hut since I aquired the farm, but haven't done much more than keep an eye out for various options. Unless the cost differential is *significant*, I'll be evaluating vertical wall building designs for the new building. -ethan From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Dec 27 14:25:42 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:25:42 -0500 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 24 Dec 2006 16:08:36 EST." Message-ID: <200612272025.kBRKPgGe010296@mwave.heeltoe.com> "William Donzelli" wrote: >I am currently working on a project involving music made with >computers before MIDI. Some aspects and examples might be the old >mainframes playing tunes on band printers, minicomputers making tunes >with RFI, microcomputers controlling analog synthesizers, and so >forth. Don't forget to include the IBM 1620 + AM Radio. I remember it playing (nicely) christmas carols. I think the length of the move (the move which continued until it hit a flag) generated different tones (it was ages ago, at Carleton College and the NHS). I remember there were several different music programs. it put the 1130 line printer music to shame :-) early '70s (and probably before that) There was also a music setup for the lisp machines at MIT but I have never heard any recordings - only seen the software. That would be mid '70s. -brad From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 27 14:35:20 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 12:35:20 -0800 Subject: Digital Proffesional 350 In-Reply-To: <027801c729f0$d0151180$0401a8c0@KSRPC> References: <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org> <027801c729f0$d0151180$0401a8c0@KSRPC> Message-ID: At 2:54 PM -0500 12/27/06, Ken Rother wrote: >Hi, I am trying to bring a Digital Proffesional 350 back to life. I >have diagnosotics on the screen (VR201) that indicate everything >might be ok but I need a boot diskette. Does anyone have any idea >where I might be able to find diskette images or actual diskettes >for this machine? Check the Sunsite (ibiblio) and update (in Sweden) archives. One or both should have P/OS floppy images. The tricky part will likely be creating usable floppies from those images, unless you have a 486-to-Pentium era system around. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Dec 27 14:38:42 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:38:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061227203842.6E5C958821@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by William Donzelli > > > http://www.hvsc.c64.org/ has an easily accessed collection of almost > > every C64 tune ever written, ripped into a convenient .sid format. > > You can then play those using a SID emulator that just emulates the > > SID, rather than a whole C64. For the mac, there is a neat little app > > called Sidplay that is nice to use. At least this way you can easily > > preview the tunes before getting a real C64. > > I would be happy to leave most of the C64 music selection to the guy > that demos the machine. I think I still have a C64 emulator on this > machine, when I wanted to play Castles of Dr. Creep. > SIDs *have* to be played on the real thing... Emulation of the SID is still not there yet. As for *what* SIDs to play, SLAYradio just did a SID-only show last week of some really great stuff from HVSC and they also posted their play list. :) > > > Amiga 500s should be cheap and easy to get a hold of - and have a > > fairly recognizable lo-fi sound (8bit resolution and variable sampling > > freq) C64s are also like sand on the beach... > > Yes, and I hope that someone (MARCH?) would want to show off a bit. > On-Air praise and kudos to those that do! > IIRC, there is also a music program for the PET that allows you play music with the help of an on screen keyboard and also record. But I can't remember the name at the moment... Cheers, Bryan BTW, I live in S. New Jersey and have PETs, Commodores and Amigas, plus a few other vintage computers... From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 27 15:05:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 14:05:44 -0700 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:07:24 -0500. <1167250045.32520.17.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: In article <1167250045.32520.17.camel at linux.site>, Warren Wolfe writes: > This is similar to the procedure I use. After the soaking, however, > I run warmish tap water over it to remove any traces of soap. I then > drizzle distilled water over it to remove the calcium in tap water, and > give it a quick immersion in an alcohol bath. I do this, generally, for > keyboards that separate. I don't like the picture of trying to dip an > ADM-3. Slippery little buggers when soapy... Presumably he's going to take the logic board out of the enclosure.... :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 27 15:08:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 14:08:50 -0700 Subject: Storage Buildings In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 28 Dec 2006 09:12:55 +1300. Message-ID: In article , "Ethan Dicks" writes: > On 12/18/06, Richard wrote: > > What about a Quonset Hut? I see them for sale at the State Fair here > > in Utah and they seem pretty cheap, relatively speaking. > > I have a 32'x48' quonset hut at my farm... it's nice that it was there > when I bought the place in 1998, but as another poster pointed out, > it's not the most efficient use of available square footage. [...] I think their main selling points are that it is easy to transport the materials (flatbed truck), easy to assemble and can be assembled rapidly. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 27 15:30:44 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 13:30:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: <4592B793.4030408@mdrconsult.com> References: <45929513.2010504@bluewin.ch> <4592B793.4030408@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20061227132950.Y28533@shell.lmi.net> > >> Anyone have suggestions for the specific case of semi-dried Coke ? On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Doc Shipley wrote: > Cue the dishwasher thread.... and "The Pepsi Syndrome" From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Dec 27 15:47:47 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:47:47 +0100 Subject: an ADM-3A came in today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4592EA03.5070108@bluewin.ch> DM-3. Slippery little buggers when soapy... > > Presumably he's going to take the logic board out of the enclosure.... > :-) Of course I did... And since I could not clean it enough with the toothbrush, i did soak the pcb and it is now drying. The unit is now dismantled, the case cleaned. A pity the transformer is not screwed on, but popped unto the base unit. While trying to remove the CRT shield I managed to crack it, so I will take the risk and use the now clean CRT without the shield. Since Richard asked : the case has a cream top and a brown base. The (3th party) graphic option is a Z80 based extra PCB that gives Tek-4014 emulation, but limited to 512x256 resolution. Google for "adm-3a rg-512" for more info. But I will first get the ADM to run before tackling the graphics option. Jos Dreesen From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 27 15:59:59 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 13:59:59 -0800 Subject: Claude Shannon's "spooky hand in a box" toy References: <458DF2E7.F0B2C99@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4592ECDE.5FDFEADA@cs.ubc.ca> David Griffith wrote: > > There still is a variation of this in which a coin is placed in a niche in > front of a trap door. Angry buzzing is heard and a hand comes out of the > trap door and pulls the coin inside. > > Google for ("magic hand" bank) and you'll find several websites selling > it. Thanks for pointing that out, I did see that one years ago but had forgotten about the coin-bank aspect. IMHO, the addition of the coin acquisition aspect detracts from the original conception of Shannon/Minsky, but it's probably that addition of a 'purpose' that has made it popular/long-lived. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 27 16:23:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:23:57 -0700 Subject: an ADM-3A came in today In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:47:47 +0100. <4592EA03.5070108@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: In article <4592EA03.5070108 at bluewin.ch>, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel writes: > The unit is now dismantled, the case cleaned. A pity the transformer is > not screwed on, but popped unto the base unit. > While trying to remove the CRT shield I managed to crack it, so I will > take the risk and use the now clean CRT without the shield. Had the shield not cracked, do you think you would have been able to reattach it after cleaning off the mold? > Since Richard asked : the case has a cream top and a brown base. > The (3th party) graphic option is a Z80 based extra PCB that gives > Tek-4014 emulation, but limited to 512x256 resolution. Interesting! I'm looking at the manual from vt100.net right now. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jrr at flippers.com Wed Dec 27 15:16:12 2006 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 13:16:12 -0800 Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:31 AM -0700 12/27/06, Richard wrote: >In article <03df01c729e3$90322970$f0fea8c0 at alpha>, > "Alexandre Souza" writes: > >> BTW, do you know how to clean burnt marks on CRTs? Let them facing the >> sun for one, two or three hours, anything will vanish usually. > >Are you saying that "phosphor screen burn" on a CRT can be fixed by a >strong exposure to sunlight? That sounds too bizarre - I would expect that strong exposure to the sun would simply fade the phosphors even more... John :-#)# (thinking of sticking some monitors out back to test - can't hurt!) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 27 17:23:34 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 15:23:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <982741.26546.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Robertson wrote: > >Are you saying that "phosphor screen burn" on a CRT > can be fixed by a > >strong exposure to sunlight? > > That sounds too bizarre - I would expect that strong > exposure to the > sun would simply fade the phosphors even more... > > John :-#)# (thinking of sticking some monitors out > back to test - can't hurt!) The sun isn't so strong this time of year. Where I live anyway. And has anyone noticed how hot the face of a tube gets if it's allowed to sit in the sun? There was this outfit near Philadelphia who would take your tube, cut the neck off, then presum-ably "weld" a new front on. I can't remember their name (or if they're even still around) but my guess was it couldn't have been cheap. I'd like to try it, but I doubt my Rigid shop vac could pull enough inches of mercury :( __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 27 17:27:07 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 17:27:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance Message-ID: <200612272327.kBRNQxnc051656@keith.ezwind.net> --- Jules Richardson wrote: **>> snip <<** > > The whole 'emissions at point of manufacture and > disposal' does get > conveniently forgotten by the majority of people, > though. I think there's > what, nine years of landfill left in the UK - afte r > which existing sites will > be full and the law prohibits opening of any new > ones. Yet there's virtually > nobody either trying to reuse the technology that we > already have or making > new technology that's long-lived and easily > repairable. > > cheers > > J. > Is that true? (about the landfills) I'm sure the government have already thought of ways around that. The 2 I can think of right now are: 1) Amend the law 2) Export our rubbish and pay for it to be landfilled in Europe! Certainly where I work we do alot more recycling now. We always used to recycle paper (or atleast, they have in the 8 years I have been with them), but we also recycle glass and cardboard (we get lots of stuff in boxes in every week). I'm not entirely sure how you could recycle a car, per se. Obviously some of the internal stuff can be taken out and reused, but aren't cars made of different metals or are they (each model) all made from the same metal? (I'm not really knowledgeable about cars) Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 17:34:39 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:34:39 -0500 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <200612272327.kBRNQxnc051656@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200612272327.kBRNQxnc051656@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > I'm not entirely sure how you could recycle > a car, per se. Obviously some of the internal > stuff can be taken out and reused, but aren't > cars made of different metals or are they > (each model) all made from the same metal? > (I'm not really knowledgeable about cars) It should be noted that cars have been successfully recycled for...ever. The percentage of material that is recovered from cars is way up in the 99 percent region. It is now even higher than 10 years ago, with the ability to recycle the plastics. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 27 18:18:10 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:18:10 -0800 Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) In-Reply-To: <982741.26546.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: , <982741.26546.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45929CC2.31898.40F95B21@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Dec 2006 at 15:23, Chris M wrote: > There was this outfit near Philadelphia who would > take your tube, cut the neck off, then presum-ably > "weld" a new front on. I can't remember their name (or > if they're even still around) but my guess was it > couldn't have been cheap. I'd like to try it, but I > doubt my Rigid shop vac could pull enough inches of > mercury :( In the "good old days", that's how TV CRT's would be recycled. Just a new gun assembly and you're off and running. Of course, nowadays we just toss 'em into a toxic landfill. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 27 18:32:46 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 16:32:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) In-Reply-To: <45929CC2.31898.40F95B21@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <241603.70493.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > In the "good old days", that's how TV CRT's would be > recycled. Just > a new gun assembly and you're off and running. Of > course, nowadays > we just toss 'em into a toxic landfill. I had thought the reason to go through this was so you'd have fresh new phosphors. Them tubes get dim and yucky after a while. But what do I know... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 27 19:07:23 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 19:07:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance Message-ID: <200612280107.kBS17NmJ056211@keith.ezwind.net> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > Going slightly OT, I assume the same thing > > would happen to any rubber rollers in VHS > > players, and be the main (only?) reason why > > VHS players start chewing VHS tapes? > > I've not (yet) aeen a video recorder where the > rollers have turned to > goo. Not saying it can't happen, though. > > The usueal reason for tape chewins is wear on the > reel-drive idler which > means the tape is not wound nack into the cassette > on eject (And may not > be properly taken up during play/record, so it get s > tangled round bits of > the machine). Or wear of the backtension band so > that the tape loops on > the feed side of the head during play/record and > gets tangled. Or wear on > the pinch roller so that the tape runs away from t he > correct path. Ahhhhh. > > Assuming the heads are still good, a set of roller s > and tension band is > not expensive. Setting up the back tension is 'fun ', > and you will need a > service manual for the machine (but hey, do you > really have a machine > that you don't have the service manual for?). > > > -tony > Service manual?!!! The only service manual I know I have is for my car. Everything else I have has manuals, but the service bit usually requires ringing the manufacturer to get them out. I know I have the VCR manual here somewhere..... Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 19:08:24 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 20:08:24 -0500 Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) In-Reply-To: <45929CC2.31898.40F95B21@cclist.sydex.com> References: <982741.26546.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <45929CC2.31898.40F95B21@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > In the "good old days", that's how TV CRT's would be recycled. Just > a new gun assembly and you're off and running. Of course, nowadays > we just toss 'em into a toxic landfill. No, the Chinese buy them (VGA tubes, anyway). Cheap Wal-Mart color TVs for all - because the most expensive part to manufacture is a refurb. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 27 19:11:43 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 17:11:43 -0800 Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) References: <241603.70493.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <459319C9.5AE6833F@cs.ubc.ca> Chris M wrote: > > --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > In the "good old days", that's how TV CRT's would be > > recycled. Just > > a new gun assembly and you're off and running. Of > > course, nowadays > > we just toss 'em into a toxic landfill. > > I had thought the reason to go through this was so > you'd have fresh new phosphors. Them tubes get dim and > yucky after a while. But what do I know... In the old days, the primary problem was loss of cathode emission. Cathodes are made with a special coating (lovely stuff like barium-calcium-strontium carbonates *) or alloy to get the electrons to fly off more readily. Significant improvements in that area were made over the years, so it may be that phosphor-light-emission loss occurs before cathode-electron-emission loss these days. The other trick in the old days was the picture tube booster, a small autotransformer plugged in between the chassis connector and the CRT to boost the filament voltage and run the cathode hotter. After the CRT deteriorated further you might have it re-gunned. (* If you look at the range of stuff that goes into a vacuum tube it's quite a tour of the periodic table.) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 27 19:24:27 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 17:24:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) In-Reply-To: <459319C9.5AE6833F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <433322.86632.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Hilpert wrote: > The other trick in the old days was the picture tube > booster, a small > autotransformer plugged in between the chassis > connector and the CRT to boost > the filament voltage and run the cathode hotter. > After the CRT deteriorated > further you might have it re-gunned. I obtained a brand new one of these, probably specific to a particular make/model, but don't ask me which (it ain't in front of me). I had also heard that there's something called an "age switch", but I have to wonder if the guy was pulling my leg, cuz I never found one. But possibly it employed a technique like this? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Dec 27 20:23:07 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 23:23:07 -0300 Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) References: Message-ID: <050c01c72a27$55249360$f0fea8c0@alpha> >>Are you saying that "phosphor screen burn" on a CRT can be fixed by a >>strong exposure to sunlight? > That sounds too bizarre - I would expect that strong exposure to the sun > would simply fade the phosphors even more... > John :-#)# (thinking of sticking some monitors out back to test - can't > hurt!) Sounds bizarre to me too, but it works... :oO From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 27 19:25:06 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 17:25:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) In-Reply-To: <459319C9.5AE6833F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <545418.77082.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Hilpert wrote: > The other trick in the old days was the picture tube > booster, a small > autotransformer plugged in between the chassis > connector and the CRT to boost > the filament voltage and run the cathode hotter. > After the CRT deteriorated > further you might have it re-gunned. I obtained a brand new one of these, probably specific to a particular make/model, but don't ask me which (it ain't in front of me). I had also heard that there's something called an "age switch", but I have to wonder if the guy was pulling my leg, cuz I never found one. But possibly it employed a technique like this? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 27 19:25:09 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 17:25:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) In-Reply-To: <459319C9.5AE6833F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20061228012510.18685.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Hilpert wrote: > The other trick in the old days was the picture tube > booster, a small > autotransformer plugged in between the chassis > connector and the CRT to boost > the filament voltage and run the cathode hotter. > After the CRT deteriorated > further you might have it re-gunned. I obtained a brand new one of these, probably specific to a particular make/model, but don't ask me which (it ain't in front of me). I had also heard that there's something called an "age switch", but I have to wonder if the guy was pulling my leg, cuz I never found one. But possibly it employed a technique like this? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Dec 27 21:14:42 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 00:14:42 -0300 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay References: Your message of Wed, 27 Dec 2006 11:55:23-0500. <200612271601.kBRG1MjY018812@hosting.monisys.ca> <200612271731.kBRHVQFe003645@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <054401c72a2f$0397d4a0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > WEAR EYE PROTECTION WHEN WORKING ON POWER SUPPLIES! > I've had shorted regulators explode with enough force to penetrate a > wall beside my workbench. Was that a nuclear power supply??? :oO :oD From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 27 20:22:27 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 21:22:27 -0500 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: <20061227203842.6E5C958821@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200612280222.kBS2MUsC059522@keith.ezwind.net> Check out .... Epay auction id: 200062903199 IBM 1710 Computer Control of Sound for Electronic Music From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Dec 27 21:21:48 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 00:21:48 -0300 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay References: <45929513.2010504@bluewin.ch><03df01c729e3$90322970$f0fea8c0@alpha> <1167250045.32520.17.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <055501c72a2f$bb25e1c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Sorry, I can't buy this. Phosphor material is burnt OFF the glass > by "burn-in," and no amount of sun will paint more on it. You must be > talking about something else... Me too, but it works. Maybe the sun burns the phospor more, dunno. But surely, it works. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 27 20:55:52 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 18:55:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) In-Reply-To: <050c01c72a27$55249360$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <050c01c72a27$55249360$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <20061227185217.D39751@shell.lmi.net> > > Are you saying that "phosphor screen burn" on a CRT can be fixed by a > > strong exposure to sunlight? > That sounds too bizarre - I would expect that strong exposure to the sun > would simply fade the phosphors even more... sure, . . . just burn the rest of the screen to match, or until the percentage of difference is less noticeable Go to reverse video, and leave a Visicalc L-bar on for a long time. From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 21:12:19 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:12:19 -0500 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: References: <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 12/27/06, Jeff Walther wrote: > > > This is a bit off-topic for the thread, but deals with the same > philosophy of selling question. > ... Well, I shopped on ebay for 8250 UART's. I saw 19 pieces listed for $0.75 each. I offered best offer of $0.50 each for all. Of course I was rejected, but to my surprise the price was then raised to $2.75 a piece. I am not sure whether it was a price error or a new model of business. Fortunately I am not so eager to get those chips, and I bought some from others for $0.50 a piece. vax, 9000 > Jeff Walther > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Dec 27 21:17:13 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 19:17:13 -0800 Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) In-Reply-To: <20061227185217.D39751@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >From: Fred Cisin > > > > Are you saying that "phosphor screen burn" on a CRT can be fixed by a > > > strong exposure to sunlight? > > That sounds too bizarre - I would expect that strong exposure to the sun > > would simply fade the phosphors even more... > >sure, . . . >just burn the rest of the screen to match, or until the percentage of >difference is less noticeable > >Go to reverse video, and leave a Visicalc L-bar on for a long time. > Hi Fred I suspect that you are right. Still, without having a light meter handy we'd just be guessing. One of my terminals someplace has a mild burn on it from some menu. Next time I see it, I'll place it in the sun but mask of a section with foil. If it is just making things uniformly dim, the covered section will be brighter. Even so, it might better to get a uniform dimming than some burn letters. I have an old oscilloscope that has a hard burn. It looks like there is no phospher at all where the burn is. I doubt this could be recovered. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Fixing up the home? Live Search can help http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=hmemailtaglinenov06&FORM=WLMTAG From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 27 21:30:56 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 20:30:56 -0700 Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 27 Dec 2006 23:23:07 -0300. <050c01c72a27$55249360$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: In article <050c01c72a27$55249360$f0fea8c0 at alpha>, "Alexandre Souza" writes: > >>Are you saying that "phosphor screen burn" on a CRT can be fixed by a > >>strong exposure to sunlight? > > That sounds too bizarre - I would expect that strong exposure to the sun > > would simply fade the phosphors even more... > > John :-#)# (thinking of sticking some monitors out back to test - can't > > hurt!) > > Sounds bizarre to me too, but it works... :oO Can you describe the results? I mean, just what exactly do you get by doing this? There have been various guesses posted so far, but since you have done it, you could just tell us what you get :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Dec 27 21:44:06 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 19:44:06 -0800 Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) References: <20061228012510.18685.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45933D7C.88EDDFAD@cs.ubc.ca> Chris M wrote: > > --- Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > The other trick in the old days was the picture tube > > booster, a small > > autotransformer plugged in between the chassis > > connector and the CRT to boost > > the filament voltage and run the cathode hotter. > > After the CRT deteriorated > > further you might have it re-gunned. > > I obtained a brand new one of these, probably > specific to a particular make/model, but don't ask me > which (it ain't in front of me). There's only really 3 variables, - voltage, actually %boost, so it may be consistent across the range - current, may not vary enough to be an issue - tube base pinout So they should be fairly generic with a few types covering many make/models. > I had also heard that > there's something called an "age switch", but I have > to wonder if the guy was pulling my leg, cuz I never > found one. But possibly it employed a technique like this? I've never seen an age switch either, but it's conceivable there was something built-in for the boost (extra tap on the filament winding maybe, or jumper across a resistor), although it would be a surprise to see a mnuafacturer going to the expense. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 27 22:19:19 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:19:19 -0600 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay References: Message-ID: <009c01c72a37$59814380$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Richard wrote.... > Some sites talk about removing the face plate and cleaning it and > reattaching it, but I've only seen sites talk about this as a > possibility, not any stories from anyone who's actually done it. I > think replacing the CRT would be preferable. No, it's actually been done, and well documented on the net. I don't have the URL handy, but the guy who did it is on the list here. Replacing the CRT would be preferable, but only in the case of dealing with somewhat standard gear. Every piece of gear I have that has the dreaded screen mold, replacing the crt is not likely as the crt is somewhat oddball/nonstandard. Not something you can just order up. I will be giving the faceplate removal thing a try when I get to that DG terminal for sure. Jay From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 27 22:45:04 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 21:45:04 -0700 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:19:19 -0600. <009c01c72a37$59814380$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: In article <009c01c72a37$59814380$6600a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, "Jay West" writes: > Richard wrote.... > > Some sites talk about removing the face plate and cleaning it and > > reattaching it, but I've only seen sites talk about this as a > > possibility, not any stories from anyone who's actually done it. I > > think replacing the CRT would be preferable. > > No, it's actually been done, and well documented on the net. I don't have > the URL handy, but the guy who did it is on the list here. Cool! > Replacing the CRT would be preferable, but only in the case of dealing with > somewhat standard gear. Every piece of gear I have that has the dreaded > screen mold, replacing the crt is not likely as the crt is somewhat > oddball/nonstandard. Not something you can just order up. I will be giving > the faceplate removal thing a try when I get to that DG terminal for sure. Is this a Dasher? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Dec 28 00:03:19 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 01:03:19 -0500 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: <054401c72a2f$0397d4a0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <200612280508.kBS58xgU025670@hosting.monisys.ca> > > WEAR EYE PROTECTION WHEN WORKING ON POWER SUPPLIES! > > I've had shorted regulators explode with enough force to penetrate a > > wall beside my workbench. > > Was that a nuclear power supply??? :oO Damn close - Most memorable was a Cromemco Z2 - honkin big S-100 box with a massive transformer and capacitors a significant fraction of a farad. Regulator on an S-100 card hanging out the front on an extender exploded and buried a part of it's casing in the wall. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Dec 27 23:45:37 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 23:45:37 -0600 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: References: <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45935A01.1090706@oldskool.org> 9000 VAX wrote: > Well, I shopped on ebay for 8250 UART's. I saw 19 pieces listed for $0.75 Are those the ones with the 16-byte buffer, or were those only present on the 16550a units? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 00:10:46 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 01:10:46 -0500 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: <45935A01.1090706@oldskool.org> References: <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org> <45935A01.1090706@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 12/28/06, Jim Leonard wrote: > > 9000 VAX wrote: > > Well, I shopped on ebay for 8250 UART's. I saw 19 pieces listed for > $0.75 > > Are those the ones with the 16-byte buffer, or were those only present > on the 16550a units? If my memory is correct, 16 byte buffer exists on 16450 and 16550 UART chips. The 8250 has only one byte buffer. vax, 9000 -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 28 00:51:57 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 00:51:57 -0600 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: References: <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org> <45935A01.1090706@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4593698D.2070103@oldskool.org> 9000 VAX wrote: > If my memory is correct, 16 byte buffer exists on 16450 and 16550 UART > chips. The 8250 has only one byte buffer. Are either of the 16450/16550 a drop-in replacement for an 8250, or are they not pin/command compatible? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 28 01:09:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 23:09:35 -0800 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: <4593698D.2070103@oldskool.org> References: <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org>, , <4593698D.2070103@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4592FD2F.29994.FC365B@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Dec 2006 at 0:51, Jim Leonard wrote: > 9000 VAX wrote: > > If my memory is correct, 16 byte buffer exists on 16450 and 16550 UART > > chips. The 8250 has only one byte buffer. > > Are either of the 16450/16550 a drop-in replacement for an 8250, or are > they not pin/command compatible? They're all pin-compatible. The 16450 supports higher line speeds; the 16550 has the 16-byte FIFO. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 28 01:14:16 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 23:14:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: updates to the Floodgap KIM-1 site Message-ID: <200612280714.kBS7EHRt017594@floodgap.com> The reworked Floodgap KIM-1 site, including a new version of the KIMplement KIM-1 emulator for the Commodore 64, is now available. The new site includes a "FAQ"-style introduction to the KIM-1 with an overview of options, software, hardware and emulation, along with a large link list to document archives, software archives, hardware vendors and collector's sites. In addition, the redesign also introduces version 0.2 of the KIMplement, a true partial emulation of the KIM-1 running on the Commodore 64 (and no, this is not a joke). KIMplement 0.2 supports: - fully virtualized NMOS 6502 emulation with virtualized ROM and RAM access and all documented instructions (no undocumented instructions on purpose) - LED, keypad and SST emulation through partial RIOT emulation - TTY emulation (using a simulated TTY modeled on the ASR-33) through partial RIOT emulation - KIM-4 emulation (16K addressable using emulated 4K and 8K cards) - Load/save RAM to disk - Built-in Revision E ROMs This new version adds an extra 8K above $2000, fixes bugs with saving memory to disk, improves emulation speed by overall ~25%, fixes glitches with the TTY and makes the simulation more consistent, adds a disk wedge, adds the ability to load binaries without starting addresses, and is precrunched to half the size. This is now compatible enough and offers enough RAM to run Tiny BASIC -- see the screen shots. It's slow, yes, but it works! Other sample programs from The First Book of KIM are also offered. KIMplement will run on any modern Commodore 64 emulator, as well as any real Commodore 64 or 128, of course. Please let me know your comments and suggestions. http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/kim-1/ -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever. -- Napoleon Bonaparte --------- From g-wright at att.net Thu Dec 28 01:32:10 2006 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 07:32:10 +0000 Subject: looking for HP 3000 37 CPU Message-ID: <122820060732.29196.459372F9000AC3A60000720C21604666489B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi All I have a broken HP 3000-37 and need a CPU board or ???? Anyone have spares laying around. This is the small foot- print model. Looks like a HP 3xx desk top 680xx box. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright g-wright at att.net From cc at corti-net.de Thu Dec 28 03:27:12 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 10:27:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Dec 2006, Richard wrote: > My ADM-3A also does not power up; I suspect the power supply circuit > but haven't diagnosed it any further than that. Check the power switch, this is a likely source of failure; at least our ADM-3a has a flaky power switch. Christian From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Dec 27 21:04:36 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 03:04:36 +0000 Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) In-Reply-To: <20061228012510.18685.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061228012510.18685.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45933444.4060902@gjcp.net> Chris M wrote: > --- Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> The other trick in the old days was the picture tube >> booster, a small >> autotransformer plugged in between the chassis >> connector and the CRT to boost >> the filament voltage and run the cathode hotter. >> After the CRT deteriorated >> further you might have it re-gunned. > > I obtained a brand new one of these, probably > specific to a particular make/model, but don't ask me > which (it ain't in front of me). I had also heard that > there's something called an "age switch", but I have > to wonder if the guy was pulling my leg, cuz I never > found one. But possibly it employed a technique like this? Certain old TVs had a separate CRT heater supply that could be adjusted up and down a bit. Also, one I remember (BRC 1400 chassis? Dead common around here, whatever it was) had a resistor across the heater, to act as a shunt. Thus the heater was actually rated for 150mA instead of the 300mA of the rest of the heater string, and you could drop out a link on the shunt resistor to put a bit more through the heater. Bodgetastic stuff. Oh, and of course there was the big tapped wirewound with voltages printed on for anything from about 200v up to 260v - mains could be very variable out in the sticks. Gordon From dan at decodesystems.com Wed Dec 27 22:59:06 2006 From: dan at decodesystems.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 23:59:06 -0500 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: <009c01c72a37$59814380$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <009c01c72a37$59814380$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20061227235750.0a125150@mail.marcal.com> At 11:19 PM 12/27/06, you wrote: >Richard wrote.... >>I think replacing the CRT would be preferable. > >No, it's actually been done, and well documented on the net. I don't have >the URL handy, but the guy who did it is on the list here. That would be Steve Loboyko. You can read his CRT replacement adventure at http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl/adm3crt.htm Cheers, Dan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 28 03:31:17 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 03:31:17 -0600 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: <009c01c72a37$59814380$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <009c01c72a37$59814380$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <45938EE5.6080705@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > Replacing the CRT would be preferable, but only in the case of dealing > with somewhat standard gear. Every piece of gear I have that has the > dreaded screen mold, replacing the crt is not likely as the crt is > somewhat oddball/nonstandard. Not something you can just order up. I > will be giving the faceplate removal thing a try when I get to that DG > terminal for sure. I did that for the *faceplate* on our HP250 to get rid of the mould problem - but I thought the original context here was removal of the whole *face* of the CRT due to burn, which sounds like a whole different league of complexity. Note that in this case the plate was only sealed back on at the edges though as the machine (at present) is only a static demo exhibit (it's a *long* way from being operational). After talking to a lot of people it seems that the risk of CRT collapse is so low that I'd still run a CRT like that for a personal machine, but for anything that's put in front of the public it'll need something better. Air bubbles in the sealant are going to be the main problem; I expect that it'll need something that's a lot more liquid before setting which can be poured down between the CRT and faceplate, after sealing the faceplate around the edges with more conventional stuff (as I did) to contain it until it's dried. cheers Jules From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Dec 28 03:37:08 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 04:37:08 -0500 Subject: ebay seller computermkt References: <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <010901c72a63$be5cf340$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "9000 VAX" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 10:12 PM Subject: Re: ebay seller computermkt > On 12/27/06, Jeff Walther wrote: > > > > > > This is a bit off-topic for the thread, but deals with the same > > philosophy of selling question. > > ... > > > Well, I shopped on ebay for 8250 UART's. I saw 19 pieces listed for $0.75 > each. I offered best offer of $0.50 each for all. Of course I was rejected, > but to my surprise the price was then raised to $2.75 a piece. I am not > sure whether it was a price error or a new model of business. Fortunately I > am not so eager to get those chips, and I bought some from others for $0.50 > a piece. > > vax, 9000 > > > > Jeff Walther > > The seller probably thinks you only needed a few for a dead machine and jacked up the individual price. For smaller hard to find items it seems ebayers tend to keep them high and collect dust looking for somebody in desperate need then to sell them for a low price that is not worth their time. I had problems trying to find 68K Mac VRAM SIMMs cheap on ebay (I needed the slot in a machine for a card and decided to bump up the VRAM onboard instead of using a separate card), I had to go to LEM Swap where people just about give those items away since they generally don't care about the video color depth on their machines, or if they do they get a decent video card. Granted they are not that common, but $15 shipped for a couple sticks (especially when the machine I wanted to upgrade needed 4 of them) is way too much. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Dec 28 03:59:25 2006 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 01:59:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) In-Reply-To: <982741.26546.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20061228095925.90367.qmail@web52711.mail.yahoo.com> AFAIK, there is no way to 'clean' burn off a CRT. The burn you see is discoloration and deterioration of the phosphors themselves, and you're not going to "bring them back" by exposing them to the sunlight. I could imagine that you could theoretically discolor the rest of the tube to look similar though. If there was sun this time of year, I'd set a burnt out tube outside and cover one half with cardboard, see if the sun is capable of discoloring or changing the appearance of the phosphor at all. As far as a dim tube, you can kinda brighten a weak tube by boosting the filament voltage a bit. Don't go too high, or you'll burn out the filament. CRT boosters for TV sets were common in the 50's and 60's. They worked, but not for all that long. The only solution then is a rebuilt or replacement tube. Mold behind the CRT face is pretty common on old TV sets. In particular, the old round 21" color tubes develop "cataracts" caused by the PVA compound located between the safety glass and the tube face deteriorating and molding. To clean this, on these tubes anyway, you remove the faceplate. To do this without cracking it, remove the tube and set it neck down in a container that will hold it (bucket or somesuch). Heat the face of the tube with a heat gun. Heat evenly and try to get bubbles to form in the PVA compound. Once you've gotten bubbles to form, you want to work toward the edge of the tube, and try to free the safety glass from the rest of the tube, lever gently with a popsicle stick or something. This works at least on the TV tubes that have a safety _glass_. I think sometimes the face on terminals is plastic. Might want to stick with low heat. Once the glass is off, you should be able to peel away the PVA coating from the tube glass, and clean the remainder off with some chemical cleaner like paint stripper. This works on the TV tubes, I have never seen it done on a terminal tube, but if they were made the same way I'd say it is worth a shot. Maybe start with a hair dryer and see if you can get the PVA to bubble or soften. I know the Zenith TV tubes had a different sort of PVA, and those didn't work with this method. I think people were cutting the faceplates off with nichrome wire. When picture tubes are rebuilt, the guns are cut off and new ones are attached. For color tubes, the phosphors are not replaced, and only tubes without screen burn are rebuilt at all. For black and white tubes, it is possible to replace the phosphors, and this was common back in the 50's. In general though, a big cause of lack of brightness is simply a deteriorated filament/cathode. Early black and white tubes (pre aluminized screen) had a phosphor that discolored much more easily, to the point that the stray electron emission from the gun would eat a mark in the center of the tube. These tubes used ion traps to prevent this, and when rebuilt, new phosphors were the norm. For the vintage computer collector though, replacing picture tubes is generally done with used tubes from something else. A lot of monochrome tubes are pretty much interchangeable. Save junk terminals with decent tubes, they might come in handy. Also, don't overlook TV's - the picture tubes in 12" black and white TV's make a pretty good replacement for many computers, I've used a TV tube in a TRS-80 Model III. Also, one time when I was bored, I transplanted the tube from an IBM 5151 display into a 12" Zenith black and white TV set. It worked fine, although the long persistance phosphor and WordPerfect screen burn made TV unusual. The things to look out for in swapping tubes is the physical mounting, the neck size, and base. Typically, if the base matches up, the yoke fits and you can bolt it in there, it should work. Modifying mountings is OK and necessary sometimes, but NEVER CUT THE RIMBAND OFF A TUBE. That rimband is sometimes part of the mounting ears, and it is there as a critical structural component. It typically looks like a metal pallet strap. If removed, the implosion protection for the tube will be compromized, and the tube may very well implode/explode. I've heard horror stories about this. -Ian From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 28 05:12:32 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:12:32 -0300 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay References: Message-ID: <05d601c72a71$6f79e900$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> Replacing the CRT would be preferable, but only in the case of dealing >> with >> somewhat standard gear. Every piece of gear I have that has the dreaded >> screen mold, replacing the crt is not likely as the crt is somewhat >> oddball/nonstandard. Not something you can just order up. I will be >> giving >> the faceplate removal thing a try when I get to that DG terminal for >> sure. I'm yet to see some "oddball" tube into a monitor. I use to replace them here in Brazil with old mono VGA tubes. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 28 08:26:57 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:26:57 -0600 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: <05d601c72a71$6f79e900$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <05d601c72a71$6f79e900$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <4593D431.4090704@yahoo.co.uk> Alexandre Souza wrote: >>> Replacing the CRT would be preferable, but only in the case of >>> dealing with >>> somewhat standard gear. Every piece of gear I have that has the dreaded >>> screen mold, replacing the crt is not likely as the crt is somewhat >>> oddball/nonstandard. Not something you can just order up. I will be >>> giving >>> the faceplate removal thing a try when I get to that DG terminal for >>> sure. > > I'm yet to see some "oddball" tube into a monitor. I use to replace > them here in Brazil with old mono VGA tubes. At least in the case of the HP250 one, the aspect ratio of the CRT is around 2:1 (unlike most screens which are closer to 4:3). I'm surprised if HP got a CRT custom-built just for them, but maybe that was the case; certainly I've seen nothing like it in any other displays ever. Mac portrait displays are presumably similarly difficult to get replacement CRTs for, at least without realigning the yoke (I gather that most CRTs don't like a change in orientation, although I used to run a Sun colour display on its side a few years ago with no obvious ill-effects) For more conventional equipment I suspect that a swap is possible, providing knowledge of how to tweak the old circuits with the new tube is known. cheers Jules From sdc695 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 28 04:46:45 2006 From: sdc695 at yahoo.com (Tom Watson) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 02:46:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM 2741 -- ASCII or EBCDIC? Message-ID: <995475.68504.qm@web60817.mail.yahoo.com> Richard said: > The subject pretty much says it all... which character code did the > 2741 typewriter/terminal use? Short answer: Neither. Long answer: 2741's came in two flavors, "correspondance" and "BCD" (someting close to PTTC/8). The serial code transmitted is 6 bits and parity (total of 7 bits) with start and stop bits. In PC parlance: 6E1. The transmission speed is 134.5 bps. Most baud rate generators actually have this speed. The tricky part of this is that the 2741 communicates in HALF duplex. It has character codes that turn the line around. On the terminal proper the key and the key. If you actually have a 2741, it might have manuals in its back which describe some of this stuff (cryptically as I remember it). If you want to release the typing mechanism, you can QUICKLY cycle the power and it will release. The difference between the codes is only the position on the ball and the encoding of the keyboard. If you feel up to it, you can use the other type of ball on the foreign machine. You need to send it the right codes. The keyboard can't be changed, so if you have the wrong code, it types "wrong". Why two codes? History. Correspondance code was what they used when they coded the original typeball on the selectrics (before they were used for computer I/O). They made the ball that way to minimize thavel for frequently used codes and to not have pairs of large letters (like M and W) next to each other. The BCD codes were used when they adapted the units to computer use. IBM changed the keyboard coding on the BCD units (there is some documentation on bitsavers) to correspond (bad word in this context) to what they changed the typeball to. Simple facts: The typeball has 88 positions. Two shifts, 44 in each shift. There are 4 tilt positions and 11 rotate positions (neutral and 5 each way left and right). At least that is the way on Selectric 1's and 2's. Selectric 3's have 96 positions. Inside the typing unit, it takes 6 bits to make something happen: Tilt-1, Tilt-2, Rotate-1, Rotate-2, Rotate-2A, and Rotate-5(minus). The 2741 has codes (that don't type) much like an old 5-level teletype to do shifts (upper case/lower case) and space. backspace, index (we call it line feed) and return (CR and LF combined). Just so you know: There is a symbol B134 in /usr/include/bits/termios.h on the Linux box I'm typing this on. The speed is actually 134.5 bps. See the man pages Another wierd fact: Normal baud rate generators (and uarts) use a 16x clock. For 134.5 bps this is 2152 cps. This is very close to a modem tone used in 103 type modem (2025Hz and 2225Hz). It can really screw up accoustic couplers (I found out the "hard way"!). Wierd fact: When IBM contracted with Qume for the units in wheelwriters, they used correspondance code on their printwheels. Qume had an awful time since some of the tines on the wheel had adjacent "high density" codes. Wierdness compounded. We now return you to the regularly scheduled mailing list for even more trivia... -- Tom Watson tsw at johana.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Dec 28 07:45:43 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 13:45:43 +0000 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: <45938EE5.6080705@yahoo.co.uk> References: <009c01c72a37$59814380$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45938EE5.6080705@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4593CA87.6050408@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Air bubbles in the sealant are going to be the main problem; I expect > that it'll need something that's a lot more liquid before setting which > can be poured down between the CRT and faceplate, after sealing the > faceplate around the edges with more conventional stuff (as I did) to > contain it until it's dried. You probably want to talk to a windscreen specialist. They make funny bits of curved laminated glass all the time. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Dec 28 07:50:26 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 13:50:26 +0000 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: <4592FD2F.29994.FC365B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org>, , <4593698D.2070103@oldskool.org> <4592FD2F.29994.FC365B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4593CBA2.3060407@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 28 Dec 2006 at 0:51, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> 9000 VAX wrote: >>> If my memory is correct, 16 byte buffer exists on 16450 and 16550 UART >>> chips. The 8250 has only one byte buffer. >> Are either of the 16450/16550 a drop-in replacement for an 8250, or are >> they not pin/command compatible? > > They're all pin-compatible. The 16450 supports higher line speeds; > the 16550 has the 16-byte FIFO. And if I remember right, you don't need to even think about the 16-byte FIFO - it does just look like an 8250 shunting out bytes as fast as it can. Handy if your ISR doesn't like small fast bursts of data. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Dec 28 08:12:34 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:12:34 +0000 Subject: Modern compared to old (was: Re: Advice for tape drive repair / In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4593D0D2.8060308@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Anyway, Sharp would not sell be the replacement part. The official reason > was 'safety' -- apprently there are high voltages inside the copier. Yes, Ran into that trying to get a new one-way clutch for my Tek Phaser 560. Even though it's on a bit that sticks out when you pull the paper-pick mechanism out, apparently it's a workshop job because you need to remove a cover and then (gasp) *a circuit board*! Woooow! So of course, I removed the cover, removed the little PCB with the photosensor thing, removed the pingfsckit end of the shaft and drew off the one way clutch. The grease had dried into a solid sticky mass, so I soaked it in some WD40 until I could separate the two bits. Now Tektronix say it needs to be very special grease (again, only available to Tek workshops), so I tried Castrol LM since I had a huge tub of it from rebuilding the suspension arm bearings in my car. It seems to work just fine. Oh, saying that it will doubtless seize up again the next time I print (Sod's Law) but it takes 10 minutes to sort. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Dec 28 08:15:43 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:15:43 +0000 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <458745CE.30103@hawkmountain.net> References: <4affc5e0612180838l182c2bc0ra529b352cd6a65c9@mail.gmail.com> <458745CE.30103@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4593D18F.6020604@gjcp.net> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > turned to goo... the one thing I've found that acclerates this (and > damages > some plastics too), is certain vinyl? cabling... this type 5 probably > had a Many many years ago, one of the regular contributors to Television magazine described how he'd managed to wreck the casing of a TV set he had in storage by leaving it with the PVC mains cable coiled up on top of the polystyrene cabinet. It seems the plasticiser leaches out of the cable, and attacks the polystyrene. I wouldn't be surprised if it attacked other plastics. Incidentally, if you use expanded polystyrene wall insulation, this is why you need to wrap up mains cables in polythene (which isn't attacked). Otherwise the PVC jacket goes brittle and crumbly... Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 28 09:35:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 07:35:18 -0800 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: <4593CBA2.3060407@gjcp.net> References: <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4592FD2F.29994.FC365B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4593CBA2.3060407@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <459373B6.28387.2CB35AA@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Dec 2006 at 13:50, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > And if I remember right, you don't need to even think about the 16-byte > FIFO - it does just look like an 8250 shunting out bytes as fast as it > can. Handy if your ISR doesn't like small fast bursts of data. There's also a 16560 with a 32-byte FIFO; somewhat harder to find. Cheers, Chuck From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 28 11:01:01 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:01:01 -0300 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay References: <05d601c72a71$6f79e900$f0fea8c0@alpha> <4593D431.4090704@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <06ac01c72aa1$c6064770$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Mac portrait displays are presumably similarly difficult to get > replacement CRTs for, at least without realigning the yoke (I gather that > most CRTs don't like a change in orientation, although I used to run a Sun > colour display on its side a few years ago with no obvious ill-effects) > For more conventional equipment I suspect that a swap is possible, > providing knowledge of how to tweak the old circuits with the new tube is > known. There is a very simple way of doing that. I though you all knew that, and didn't want to be redundant, but here we go: - For mac portrait displays, I don't know. But I always had run tubes on vertical on...ARCADE MACHINES! :D There is no problem on running B/W or colour tubes on vertical, trust me. - Tube swap is very simple. You can assume that if the neck connector fits, it will work. There are not many different tubes around, the problem is the yoke. On B/W tubes you just take the yoke of the fried tube off and put that on the new. No special alignment/convergence procedure necessary. Just line up the text on screen moving the yoke cw/ccw and you are set. For colour tubes, there are differences, here we go. - There are mainly three types of colour tubes: Mini-neck (the neck is the diameter of a fat finger), Low focus and High focus. Of course, I'm talking about inline masks. That Delta tubes (the RGB triad is a delta of points, instead of three lines one besides other) I've never seen that used in anything beyond televisions. If you have a monitor using a delta mask tube, forget it! The adjustments you're going to do are too difficult even to a profissional. - Low focus and High focus: You can see what kind is, looking at the tube socket or the neck end of the tube. The high focus tube has a plastic ring inserted on the pins, with a pin isolated from all the others. You can see the same in the socket. Low focus doesn't have that, the end of the tube has only pins, no plastic separator. - If you change colour tubes (talking about high focus and low focus), usually it is just a matter of changing the tube and using the same deflection set (yoke, convergence rings et al). E.G.: You have a monitor like the Amiga 1084/S which uses a philips or samsung tube, Low focus type, 15KHz yoke. Just buy any (!) television with the same chacarteristics (low focus) and change it. Yes, you can use the same yoke. Almost always the paramenters of the yoke are **the same**. The same happens for VGA monitors. Usually, all vga monitors uses the same type of yokes. YMMV, but this is the rule here. Please note: Yokes of 15 KHz monitors and 31 KHz monitors (vga and above) are NOT intechangeable. But the tubes ARE! - If you need to change the tube of, as an example, an EGA monitor, you'll not find a complete set from a television of from an old vga monitor, you'll have to change only the tube, keeping the deflection parts (yoke, convergence ring) and will have to do all the convergence procedure yourself. It is boring, it is hard, it is boring. But if you have no way to find a suitable replacement tube, there you are. Ok, too much words, here we go for a simple list: - If you have a B/W monitor, you can change the tube for ANY tube with the same neck size and that fits phisically in place. Keep the yoke from the old tube and put it on the new. You'll be only changing the glass tube. - If you have a COLOUR monitor, if the pixels are inline (sets of three bars, RGB on screen), you can change for any tube of the SAME type, paying attention if it is low focus or high focus. You can go some sizes above and beyond. E.G: A 14" monitor can use a 17" or even a 20" tube, the reverse is true. - If you have a VGA or HIGHER frequency monitor, you need a tube with yoke from a monitor of SIMILAR frequencies. Same as above - If you have a 15 KHz monitor and only have a VGA tube, and vice-versa, you can change THE TUBE, but will have to change the deflection set (yoke/convergence rings) and do all the convergence procedure yourself. Samsung manuals are great for teaching that, get the Syncmaster III service manual and be free. Any questions, feel free to write me Greetings from Brazil, Alexandre Souza www.tabajara-labs.com.br From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Dec 28 10:15:01 2006 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 11:15:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: UARTs (was ebay seller computermkt) In-Reply-To: <459373B6.28387.2CB35AA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4592FD2F.29994.FC365B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4593CBA2.3060407@gjcp.net> <459373B6.28387.2CB35AA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > There's also a 16560 with a 32-byte FIFO; somewhat harder to find. A 16650, perhaps? http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Serial-HOWTO-19.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Dec 28 10:38:56 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 08:38:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: <459373B6.28387.2CB35AA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4592FD2F.29994.FC365B@cclist.sydex.com>, <4593CBA2.3060407@gjcp.net> <459373B6.28387.2CB35AA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 07:35:18 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: ebay seller computermkt > > On 28 Dec 2006 at 13:50, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> And if I remember right, you don't need to even think about the 16-byte >> FIFO - it does just look like an 8250 shunting out bytes as fast as it >> can. Handy if your ISR doesn't like small fast bursts of data. > > There's also a 16560 with a 32-byte FIFO; somewhat harder to find. > > Cheers, > Chuck > 16650... There are also 16C750's and 16C850s and multi channel varients with 64 and 128 byte FIFOs, Not sure how many of these are still available in DIPS (Exar is one source) Peter Wallace From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 28 11:22:38 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 09:22:38 -0800 Subject: UARTs (was ebay seller computermkt) In-Reply-To: References: <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <459373B6.28387.2CB35AA@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <45938CDE.27925.32D786E@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Dec 2006 at 11:15, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > There's also a 16560 with a 32-byte FIFO; somewhat harder to find. > > A 16650, perhaps? Yes, I got my numbers mixed up. There's also a 16552, IIRC, which is a 2-channel variant. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 28 12:21:52 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 12:21:52 -0600 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <4593D18F.6020604@gjcp.net> References: <4affc5e0612180838l182c2bc0ra529b352cd6a65c9@mail.gmail.com> <458745CE.30103@hawkmountain.net> <4593D18F.6020604@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45940B40.1060509@yahoo.co.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Many many years ago, one of the regular contributors to Television > magazine described how he'd managed to wreck the casing of a TV set he > had in storage by leaving it with the PVC mains cable coiled up on top > of the polystyrene cabinet. It seems the plasticiser leaches out of the > cable, and attacks the polystyrene. I wouldn't be surprised if it > attacked other plastics. It's common on old boxed Acorn hardware; I've found a few where the mains cable has steadily oozed its way through the polystyrene packaging. > Incidentally, if you use expanded polystyrene wall insulation, this is > why you need to wrap up mains cables in polythene (which isn't > attacked). Otherwise the PVC jacket goes brittle and crumbly... Interesting, I didn't actually know that - but I got into the habit of putting the mains cables of aforementioned boxed Acorn stuff into bags as I figured it would *probably* stop further disintegration (of the packaging; I'm less worried about the cable as that's easy to replace!) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 28 13:08:13 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 13:08:13 -0600 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: <4593CA87.6050408@gjcp.net> References: <009c01c72a37$59814380$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45938EE5.6080705@yahoo.co.uk> <4593CA87.6050408@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4594161D.9040608@yahoo.co.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Air bubbles in the sealant are going to be the main problem; I expect >> that it'll need something that's a lot more liquid before setting >> which can be poured down between the CRT and faceplate, after sealing >> the faceplate around the edges with more conventional stuff (as I did) >> to contain it until it's dried. > > You probably want to talk to a windscreen specialist. They make funny > bits of curved laminated glass all the time. Hmm, true. Might be worth asking - although I expect the tolerances are a lot tighter for laminated glass, so consequently the depth of 'glue' which needs to be seen through is a lot thinner (on the HP250 CRT the old sealant was close to 5mm thick toward the edges of the CRT face) I am curious as to what the glass firms use, though, as it seems more robust. Having owned a few 70s vehicles I've seen the effects of windscreens starting to delaminate at the edges - but it goes a milky colour and always starts from the very edge, whereas CRT 'sealant' tends to go more like mould, and often seems to start from random points (although it tends to be worse at the edges) cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 28 12:33:32 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:33:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) In-Reply-To: <241603.70493.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Dec 27, 6 04:32:46 pm Message-ID: > > > --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > In the "good old days", that's how TV CRT's would be > > recycled. Just > > a new gun assembly and you're off and running. Of > > course, nowadays > > we just toss 'em into a toxic landfill. > > I had thought the reason to go through this was so > you'd have fresh new phosphors. Them tubes get dim and > yucky after a while. But what do I know... No, in general the phosphors were fine, it was the cathode emission that failed (or in rare cases the heater burnt out). So replacing the gun would bring an old tube back to life. There were a couple of tricks that were tried to extend the life of failing CRTs. One was to over-run the heater somewhat. In a series-string heater TV, the CRT was almost always at the shassis end of the string, with one terminal connected to the chassis. A suitable resistor from a 'live' point on the mains dropping resistor to the other terminal of the CRT heater would do that. If there was a shunt resistor across the heater, removing it (or increasing the value) helped. If the CRT heater was fed froma low-voltage sourve (secondary of a power transformer or the flyback transoformer), there was often a series resistor you could short out. The other trick was to over-run the CRT filament on the bench (give it as much voltage as you dared -- 10V for a 6.3V heater was not uncommon) and apply a few hundred volts DC between the cathode and the first (control) grid. The indea was to have a strong electric field at the surface of the cathode which would tend to 'strip off' the top layer of the cathode, exposing fresh emissive material. Both tricks were a 'last resort' THer was the risk of burning out the heater, and in the case of the second trick of stripping the cathode totally (so no emission at all). And they tend to work better on older CRTs (modern ones have a much thinner emissive layer, or so I am told). None-the-less, I managed to use the second trick to get a bit more life out of a Mac+ CRT... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 28 12:37:04 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:37:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <200612280107.kBS17NmJ056211@keith.ezwind.net> from "aliensrcooluk@yahoo.co.uk" at Dec 27, 6 07:07:23 pm Message-ID: [VCR that chews tapes...] > Service manual?!!! The only service manual I Yes, a service manual. The time to get one is when the machine is new, since it's more likely to be available then... > know I have is for my car. Everything else So do I (well, for my father's car). All 11 binders of it. And I have service manuals for just abotu everything else here, if they were available. If not, I have to produce my own notes and diagrams (as I've done for countless classic conputer items where the manufacturers thought that witholding schematics would somehow prevent me from understanding the device. It didn't work!) > I have has manuals, but the service bit usually > requires ringing the manufacturer to get them > out. Yes. > > I know I have the VCR manual here somewhere..... If you have some experience of VCR repair you can probably get by without the manual for a tape deck service -- they all work on much the same principles. But if iy's your first time, I would seriously recomend getting the manual... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 28 13:10:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 19:10:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: <4593D431.4090704@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 28, 6 08:26:57 am Message-ID: > At least in the case of the HP250 one, the aspect ratio of the CRT is around > 2:1 (unlike most screens which are closer to 4:3). I'm surprised if HP got a > CRT custom-built just for them, but maybe that was the case; certainly I've > seen nothing like it in any other displays ever. I wouldn't be suprised if it was a custom CRT. Rememebr HP made a lot of 'scopes over the years, and some of those had specially-designed CRTs (admittedly electorstatically deflected). And the CRT in the HP9100 calculator (also electrostatically deflected) is a custom job, it has a much larger deflection angle than most electrostatic CRTs. For that matter look at the HP87. That CRT has a very odd aspect ration (think of it as being a normal CRT 'cut in half horizontally'. Never seen anything else like it. > > Mac portrait displays are presumably similarly difficult to get replacement > CRTs for, at least without realigning the yoke (I gather that most CRTs don't > like a change in orientation, although I used to run a Sun colour display on Do colour portrait displays exist? The reason I ask is that I wonder if they use specially designed CRTs. IIRC, the whole point of the 'in line gun' (PIL) CRT was that the 3 electron gus were in a horizontal line, so that only the vertical component of the earth's magnetic field had much effect on the convergence, and that was relatively constant in a given area. So if the CRT was set up properly you could move the unit around without having to do a reconvergence (this was a problem with delta-gun CRTs which had to be set up in the positionan nnd orientation where they were going to be used, but if that was done they give an excellent picture). Anyway, for a portait disply you would hope the CRT had the 3 guns aligned along a like parallel to the 'short' side of the CRT. But that would be a custom CRT. For mono CRTs there's no problem, of course, and at least some portrait displays use a normal CRT mounted 'sideways' If you're doing a CRT swap, keep the yoke with the electronics (PCB, etc), not the CRT. Yokes are a lot less generic than CRTs. So the issue of hacing to realign the yoke (trivial on a monochrome unit) is moot anyway. > its side a few years ago with no obvious ill-effects) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 28 12:44:44 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:44:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: <4593698D.2070103@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Dec 28, 6 00:51:57 am Message-ID: > > 9000 VAX wrote: > > If my memory is correct, 16 byte buffer exists on 16450 and 16550 UART > > chips. The 8250 has only one byte buffer. > > Are either of the 16450/16550 a drop-in replacement for an 8250, or are > they not pin/command compatible? >From what _I_ rememebr, the 16450 is a direct replacement for the 8250, and has only th 1-byte buffer. The 16550 has the 16 byte FIFO and is pin compatible with the 8250 (and after reset the FIFO is disabled so it works like a 8250 too). Replacing 8250s with 16550s was a common upgrade on PC serial cards some years ago. It used to be claimed the upgrade was only possbile if the 8250 was socketed, needless to say that didn't bother me. The serial card in this PC has been upgraded that way... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 28 12:55:29 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:55:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cleaning CRT burn (was: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay) In-Reply-To: <20061228095925.90367.qmail@web52711.mail.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Dec 28, 6 01:59:25 am Message-ID: > For the vintage computer collector though, replacing > picture tubes is generally done with used tubes from > something else. A lot of monochrome tubes are pretty > much interchangeable. Save junk terminals with decent > tubes, they might come in handy. Also, don't overlook > TV's - the picture tubes in 12" black and white TV's I rememebr about 20 years ago I needed a new CRT for a somewhat rare (even then) terminal. After phoniug round a dozen CRT stockists, and getting the same story from every one ('12" black and white TVs are not worth repairing if the tube goes, so we don't stock them'), I finally realised the cheapest way to get a CRT (even then) was to buy a cheap TV and take the CRT out of it. Oh, and add some interesting components to the junk box as a by-product. > make a pretty good replacement for many computers, > I've used a TV tube in a TRS-80 Model III. Also, one > time when I was bored, I transplanted the tube from an > IBM 5151 display into a 12" Zenith black and white TV > set. It worked fine, although the long persistance > phosphor and WordPerfect screen burn made TV unusual. > The things to look out for in swapping tubes is the > physical mounting, the neck size, and base. Typically, > if the base matches up, the yoke fits and you can bolt > it in there, it should work. Modifying mountings is OK In gneeral, for small mono CRTs, there are thin-neck ones with a modified B7G base (7 piu, the 'modification' being the seal-off tube in the centre) and a 12V-ish heater and thicker nexk ones with a B8H base (8 pin with a plastic locating hey in the middle round the seal-off tube) and a 6.3V heater. Virtually all computer monitor/terminal CRTs have a 90 dgree deflection angle (some late-model portable TVs over here used 115 degree tubes, those are not useful in computer terminals). And in each category they're pretty much interchangeable. You may need to tweak the anode voltages to get the best picture, but it should work anyway. -tony From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Dec 28 13:21:50 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 13:21:50 -0600 Subject: SPAM::cctalk Digest, Vol 40, Issue 58 In-Reply-To: <200612241109.kBOB9b2N034649@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612241109.kBOB9b2N034649@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 5:09 -0600 12/24/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >A new mainframe. :) > >http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/s390/mp2003/ > >Happy holidays to all! > >Pat Uh oh. http://stats.distributed.net/misc/platformlist.php?project_id=25&view=tco notes, down at the bottom, that my 68k NeXT cube [1] is just about, finally, after many years of trying, to crunch enough OGR-25 units to surpass the total done by S/390's (under Linux). Sure hope Pat keeps that beauty (for which, let me add my congratulations!) on its original OS.... :-) Happy New Year to all! [1] I *think* I have the only 68k NeXT contributing to that project... -- Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) 210-379-4635 Dwarf Phone, 210-522-6025 Office Phone From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 28 13:29:12 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 12:29:12 -0700 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 27 Dec 2006 23:59:06 -0500. <6.1.2.0.2.20061227235750.0a125150@mail.marcal.com> Message-ID: In article <6.1.2.0.2.20061227235750.0a125150 at mail.marcal.com>, Dan Veeneman writes: > At 11:19 PM 12/27/06, you wrote: > >Richard wrote.... > >>I think replacing the CRT would be preferable. > > > >No, it's actually been done, and well documented on the net. I don't have > >the URL handy, but the guy who did it is on the list here. > > That would be Steve Loboyko. You can read his CRT replacement adventure > at http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl/adm3crt.htm But isn't that talking about replacing the whole tube, not removing the faceplate to clean off the mold? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 28 13:43:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 11:43:14 -0800 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: <4594161D.9040608@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <4593CA87.6050408@gjcp.net>, <4594161D.9040608@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4593ADD2.4426.3AE3288@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Dec 2006 at 13:08, Jules Richardson wrote: > I am curious as to what the glass firms use, though, as it seems more robust. > Having owned a few 70s vehicles I've seen the effects of windscreens starting > to delaminate at the edges - but it goes a milky colour and always starts from > the very edge, whereas CRT 'sealant' tends to go more like mould, and often > seems to start from random points (although it tends to be worse at the edges) Laminated glass in automotive applications uses a layer of DuPont Butacite? PVB (polyvinyl butyral). I can't imagine the steps one would need to take to use it in a non-commercial setup. There are UV-cured resins suitable for use in producing bulletproof glass. See: http://www.uvxm.com/en/ and http://www.glasswebsite.com/divisions/laminating/profiles/cytec.asp I wonder, however if a simple acrylic copolymer might work well for small application where "bulletproof" is not an objective. Something such as Lexel caulk, for example. I've used the stuff in my own home for caulking appearance-sensitive areas and the result is a smooth, water-clear bead that stays clear (at least for the past 12 years) and adheres well to amost anything. Cheers, Chuck From technobug at comcast.net Thu Dec 28 13:48:33 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 12:48:33 -0700 Subject: Wang 725-3488-US Keyboards In-Reply-To: <200612281800.kBSI0NEi011493@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612281800.kBSI0NEi011493@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <52EF01B1-7D17-46FE-BBE5-5E443E4B7437@comcast.net> A friend who recycles computers recently got a case of NIB Wang keyboards. If there is any interest in same, please contact me off list. CRC From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 28 14:07:14 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:07:14 -0600 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: <4593ADD2.4426.3AE3288@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4593CA87.6050408@gjcp.net>, <4594161D.9040608@yahoo.co.uk> <4593ADD2.4426.3AE3288@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <459423F2.8090102@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I wonder, however if a simple acrylic copolymer might work well for > small application where "bulletproof" is not an objective. Something > such as Lexel caulk, for example. I've used the stuff in my own > home for caulking appearance-sensitive areas and the result is a > smooth, water-clear bead that stays clear (at least for the past 12 > years) and adheres well to amost anything. Well translucent caulk was what I used for the HP screen, and at those thicknesses it seemed to do the job well; the problem was just that the stuff isn't dilute enough to pour, and spreading it over the surfaces before pressing together would likely trap air bubbles in there which would be highly visible. Diluting it with *something* would probably work, but I'm no chemist so I'm not sure what would dilute it and still allow it to dry over a longer period (and not contract significantly in the process when it dries, or prove a fire hazard or whatever :-) More testing needed... cheers Jules From rpmerecki at oaklandmicrofilm.com Thu Dec 28 10:46:37 2006 From: rpmerecki at oaklandmicrofilm.com (R. Peter Merecki) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 11:46:37 -0500 Subject: value of PDP8e Message-ID: <000601c72a9f$bf4e60e0$6401a8c0@wowway.com> Good morning Heinz, My name is Pete and I work for a company that is trying to find a good home for (2) COM units that utilize the PDP8E computers. Did you ever market yours? Do you have any suggestions for marketing mine? Do you have any ideas about how to determine their value? Do you know anyone that is still utilizing this computer? We also have (2) RKO5 disk drives that also need a good home. Any and all suggestions will be welcomed. Respectfully R. Peter Merecki From sieler at allegro.com Thu Dec 28 12:42:42 2006 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 10:42:42 -0800 Subject: This just MADE my day In-Reply-To: <"a0620070ac1b5ad316b38(a)(091)192.168.1.199(093)*"@MHS> References: <3AF2A3CE-7796-44E9-A895-FE99EEE636FC@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <45939FA2.7847.2109C3@localhost> Re: > Something else to think about is that he can claim copywrite on the > compilation of those scans, thereby preventing you from posting *HIS* > scans, so just do yours at a higher resolution :^) I'm not sure you can claim copyright on a collection of copyright violations :) With the evil copyright laws, I suspect that the originals are still protected by copyright. (Making a scanned copy for backup would be legit, but not selling that scanned copy separate from the original.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright is a nice background piece. -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Dec 28 13:42:33 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 19:42:33 +0000 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: <4594161D.9040608@yahoo.co.uk> References: <009c01c72a37$59814380$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <45938EE5.6080705@yahoo.co.uk> <4593CA87.6050408@gjcp.net> <4594161D.9040608@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45941E29.1090902@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > I am curious as to what the glass firms use, though, as it seems more > robust. Having owned a few 70s vehicles I've seen the effects of > windscreens starting to delaminate at the edges - but it goes a milky > colour and always starts from the very edge, whereas CRT 'sealant' tends > to go more like mould, and often seems to start from random points > (although it tends to be worse at the edges) It goes like that around cracks, too - it's something to do with water getting in I think. Oh, and never mind 70s, my 1991 Citro?n XM is getting like that. I've seen cars less than five years old with the same problem, so I suppose it's yet another of these "newer is crappier" things. Gordon From sieler at allegro.com Thu Dec 28 14:08:31 2006 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 12:08:31 -0800 Subject: HP3000 model 70 in Australia In-Reply-To: <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A21E6@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wr> Message-ID: <4593B3BF.2219.6F9C05@localhost> Re: > Ohhh - nice big power hungry ECL based Classic 3000! Really slow > compared to later PA-RISC cousins, but a nice machine. Pair this with a > Stan Seiler might have some additional color. I was working in the RTE (Sieler: i before e) The HP 3000/64, /68, and /70 were nice, big machines. My company still has a client running an HP 3000/70 ... they claim they've twice tried to migrate to a newer (PA-RISC based) HP 3000, but that each time the migration "failed" (no one there now remembers anything about the failures :) They're running it with the clock set back 28 years to avoid Y2K problems. The 3000/64 was interesting. IIRC, it could have about 8 MB of RAM (based on both marketing and operating system limitations), but the backplane had enough wires/signals that it could really support something like 128 MB. So, when we created the RAM disk for it (with Kelly Computer Systems), we were able to stick in something like up to seven 16 MB boards for a large (in those days) RAM disk. We were disappointed to see that the /68 and /70 reduced the backplane's ability to talk to memory down to 32 MB ... so we changed our RAM disk to use bank switching. I remember being amused because the engineer who was tasked with making the board design changes was a nice guy named Lim (#1). We got a surprising bump in orders during the buildup to the first Gulf War, because the Navy used a lot of 3000/70s and needed to speed up processing (and they chose to use our RAM disk). Stan #1: LIM = Lotus-Intel-Microsoft, the guys who "invented" bank switching for the IBM PC sometime after it was already on the market from Tall Tree Systems. -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 28 17:04:02 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 17:04:02 -0600 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: <4592FD2F.29994.FC365B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org>, , <4593698D.2070103@oldskool.org> <4592FD2F.29994.FC365B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45944D62.9050806@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > They're all pin-compatible. The 16450 supports higher line speeds; > the 16550 has the 16-byte FIFO. How much higher line speeds? Higher than 115200? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From grant at stockly.com Thu Dec 28 17:23:19 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:23:19 -0900 Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228141847.014d6408@pop.1and1.com> I posted this to CSA2 today. I figured you guys would want to download these files. If you're anything like me, then you're a digital pack rat. ; ) In preparation for cutting my Apple IIe motherboard in half I decided it would help to have an x-ray of the board. This way it will be easy to determine the most efficient cut line. I've included an X-Ray of a Disk II card just for fun. The X-Rays are at 300dpi. I'm not an X-Ray tech so my calibration was a little off. Our resident X-ray guy is gone today. I'm not sure he would be interested in an Apple IIe motherboard any way. ; ) Some areas are dark. By adjusting "Levels" in photoshop you can bring them out. The motherboard received a dose rate of 17.84 R/min for the scans and calibration. About 27 minutes (for 3 scans and a calibration). This would have been a dose of 482 Rad. The Disk II card received the same dose rate, but it was in the vault for the whole time the motherboard was in there. It received radiation for a total of about 32 minutes. 571 Rad. To put it in perspective, if a group of people were exposed to that dose 50-90% would die after 30 days. (90% without intensive medical care). Primary cause of death is internal bleeding and infections. Females become permanently sterile. Motherboard: http://www.stockly.com/images2/061228-Apple_II_80kv6ma35ms36SFD-Cut%20Edges.jpg Disk II: http://www.stockly.com/images2/061228-Disk_II_80kv6ma35ms36SFD-Cut%20Edges.jpg Any comments? Grant From evan at snarc.net Thu Dec 28 17:28:58 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:28:58 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228141847.014d6408@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <001e01c72ad7$f32fcd80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> >>>> cutting my Apple IIe motherboard in half Why? -----Original Message----- From: Grant Stockly [mailto:grant at stockly.com] Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:23 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray I posted this to CSA2 today. I figured you guys would want to download these files. If you're anything like me, then you're a digital pack rat. ; ) In preparation for cutting my Apple IIe motherboard in half I decided it would help to have an x-ray of the board. This way it will be easy to determine the most efficient cut line. I've included an X-Ray of a Disk II card just for fun. The X-Rays are at 300dpi. I'm not an X-Ray tech so my calibration was a little off. Our resident X-ray guy is gone today. I'm not sure he would be interested in an Apple IIe motherboard any way. ; ) Some areas are dark. By adjusting "Levels" in photoshop you can bring them out. The motherboard received a dose rate of 17.84 R/min for the scans and calibration. About 27 minutes (for 3 scans and a calibration). This would have been a dose of 482 Rad. The Disk II card received the same dose rate, but it was in the vault for the whole time the motherboard was in there. It received radiation for a total of about 32 minutes. 571 Rad. To put it in perspective, if a group of people were exposed to that dose 50-90% would die after 30 days. (90% without intensive medical care). Primary cause of death is internal bleeding and infections. Females become permanently sterile. Motherboard: http://www.stockly.com/images2/061228-Apple_II_80kv6ma35ms36SFD-Cut%20Edges. jpg Disk II: http://www.stockly.com/images2/061228-Disk_II_80kv6ma35ms36SFD-Cut%20Edges.j pg Any comments? Grant From grant at stockly.com Thu Dec 28 17:48:49 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 14:48:49 -0900 Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray In-Reply-To: <001e01c72ad7$f32fcd80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228141847.014d6408@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228144805.03ea90e0@pop.1and1.com> At 02:28 PM 12/28/2006, you wrote: > >>>> cutting my Apple IIe motherboard in half > >Why? I want to fit the guts in a smaller case. Too much more information and it will ruin the surprise. ; ) Grant From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Dec 28 17:56:54 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:56:54 -0800 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> References: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> Message-ID: > DEC bigots can skip this message safely. :-) No they can't. ;) These techniques are of use on a lot of small memory machines with rudimentary operating systems. Sorry, have 5 minutes of spare time so I'm catching up on topics in reverse order. Are you putting the TCP/IP stack in a TSR (and want to reduce memory there). Or is it the application that you are trying to reduce memory use in? If the application, is it a .com file or a .exe? I think an overlay manager is overkill. The general way I handled such things (in the distant past, when I had time to do such fun things) was.... If using a TSR or .COM file, place the initialization code after the data section used by the initialization, feeling free to overwrite the initialization code with data (.COM) or free the initialization code. As long as you have your initialization variables in a static section below the initialization code it's pretty easy. It's a little bit more difficult in a .EXE file, since there is (potentially) OS interaction with heap allocation. Methods I have used are: 1) copying the initialization code to the top of the heap prior to execution and storing the initialization data on top of the code that was copied. 2) writing my own memory allocation code using a static variable as a heap, and changing the link order to insure the initialization code ends up above this variable. 3) manually modifying the heap pointers to "free" the initialization routines. I'm sure there are other methods that I'm not thinking of, since this was such a common problem. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Dec 28 17:56:54 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 15:56:54 -0800 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> References: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> Message-ID: > DEC bigots can skip this message safely. :-) No they can't. ;) These techniques are of use on a lot of small memory machines with rudimentary operating systems. Sorry, have 5 minutes of spare time so I'm catching up on topics in reverse order. Are you putting the TCP/IP stack in a TSR (and want to reduce memory there). Or is it the application that you are trying to reduce memory use in? If the application, is it a .com file or a .exe? I think an overlay manager is overkill. The general way I handled such things (in the distant past, when I had time to do such fun things) was.... If using a TSR or .COM file, place the initialization code after the data section used by the initialization, feeling free to overwrite the initialization code with data (.COM) or free the initialization code. As long as you have your initialization variables in a static section below the initialization code it's pretty easy. It's a little bit more difficult in a .EXE file, since there is (potentially) OS interaction with heap allocation. Methods I have used are: 1) copying the initialization code to the top of the heap prior to execution and storing the initialization data on top of the code that was copied. 2) writing my own memory allocation code using a static variable as a heap, and changing the link order to insure the initialization code ends up above this variable. 3) manually modifying the heap pointers to "free" the initialization routines. I'm sure there are other methods that I'm not thinking of, since this was such a common problem. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 28 18:16:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 16:16:07 -0800 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: <45944D62.9050806@oldskool.org> References: <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4592FD2F.29994.FC365B@cclist.sydex.com>, <45944D62.9050806@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4593EDC7.25567.4A803C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Dec 2006 at 17:04, Jim Leonard wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > They're all pin-compatible. The 16450 supports higher line speeds; > > the 16550 has the 16-byte FIFO. > > How much higher line speeds? Higher than 115200? Argh! Both "bus" and "line". The 16450A is capable of 500K, using an 8 MHz baud clock. I don't think the original 8250 could go that high. Bus timing is faster too. Finding an original 8250(A) datasheet is a little daunting, however. NS has lumped the 16450 and 8250 as one part now. Even more interesting is the list of "personality" bugs between the various NS parts and competing vendors. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 28 18:34:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 16:34:45 -0800 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: References: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com>, Message-ID: <4593F225.21372.4B9129B@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Dec 2006 at 15:56, Eric J Korpela wrote: > Sorry, have 5 minutes of spare time so I'm catching up on topics in > reverse order. Are you putting the TCP/IP stack in a TSR (and want to > reduce memory there). Or is it the application that you are trying to > reduce memory use in? If the application, is it a .com file or a > .exe? Back to my original suggestion. When I mentioned separating the initialization and resident into two executables, I think most people fell into the mental trap of "First you load the initializaion, do it, then load the resident." I think this is backward. Load the resident first, then execv() the initialization, passing it pointers to whatever structures and data are needed. After the initialization code terminates, it exits with a normal exit() call and releases its memory, but control is returned to the resident and the memory occupied by the initialization code is freed. Cheers, Chuck From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Dec 28 18:40:13 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 16:40:13 -0800 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: References: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> Message-ID: Addition: here's probably how I would implement it given how you described it and if I wanted to be quick about it. Of course some pointer massaging may be in order if you're not in a memory model where routine pointers and variable pointers are compatible. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- class init_vars { // all your initialization variables. No pointers please. // with an appropriate assignment operator. }; const init_vars *init=(init_vars *)initialization_routine; void initialization_routine() { init_var *tmpvars=new(init_vars); // do initialization stuff // add noops here if necessary to pad the routine to sizeof(init_vars) *init=*tmpvars; delete tmpvars; } void end_of_initialization_routine() {} // for ease of calculating the size // of the initialization routine. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Dec 28 18:40:13 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 16:40:13 -0800 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: References: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> Message-ID: Addition: here's probably how I would implement it given how you described it and if I wanted to be quick about it. Of course some pointer massaging may be in order if you're not in a memory model where routine pointers and variable pointers are compatible. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- class init_vars { // all your initialization variables. No pointers please. // with an appropriate assignment operator. }; const init_vars *init=(init_vars *)initialization_routine; void initialization_routine() { init_var *tmpvars=new(init_vars); // do initialization stuff // add noops here if necessary to pad the routine to sizeof(init_vars) *init=*tmpvars; delete tmpvars; } void end_of_initialization_routine() {} // for ease of calculating the size // of the initialization routine. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Dec 28 18:46:47 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 16:46:47 -0800 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: References: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> Message-ID: > > const init_vars *init=(init_vars *)initialization_routine; Oops, that should be "init_vars * const init" From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Dec 28 18:46:47 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 16:46:47 -0800 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: References: <458B3064.7020108@brutman.com> Message-ID: > > const init_vars *init=(init_vars *)initialization_routine; Oops, that should be "init_vars * const init" From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Dec 28 19:06:51 2006 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 17:06:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228141847.014d6408@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <671109.32939.qm@web52705.mail.yahoo.com> Wow - that is _really_ cool. I wish I had access to an X-ray machine - it certainally would make reverse engineering/repairing boards a lot easier. Although I wonder what a complicated multilayer board would look like. Probably unintelligible, but then again, the hardware we all work with doesn't have complicated multilayer boards. Way cool. -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 28 19:25:05 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:25:05 -0700 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 28 Dec 2006 16:40:13 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Eric J Korpela" writes: > void initialization_routine() { > init_var *tmpvars=new(init_vars); > // do initialization stuff > // add noops here if necessary to pad the routine to sizeof(init_vars) > *init=*tmpvars; > delete tmpvars; > } Classic case of abusing new/delete when all you need to do is declare an instance of init_vars on the stack... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Dec 28 19:51:02 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 17:51:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228141847.014d6408@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228141847.014d6408@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Grant Stockly wrote: > Any comments? What does that sort of radiation do to chips? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 28 19:55:47 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 19:55:47 -0600 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: <4593EDC7.25567.4A803C8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4592FD2F.29994.FC365B@cclist.sydex.com>, <45944D62.9050806@oldskool.org> <4593EDC7.25567.4A803C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <459475A3.4010103@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Argh! Sorry, just trying to learn... Thanks for the info! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Dec 28 20:03:48 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 20:03:48 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45947784.9040001@brutman.com> Greetings .. I'm looking for a little help testing my TCP/IP implementation from a friendly audience. All you need to do is telnet to 24.159.203.149, port 2301. 24.159.203.149 is my Linux box, and it port forwards 2301 to my 386-40, which is running my homebrew TCP/IP. You will get a small server program that lets you see available memory, currently open socket connections, and the DOS version & BIOS date of the machine the code is running on. Up to 9 people can connect simultaneously. I'm hoping to get a few hundred connections from varying machines to see how it behaves. I'd have run it on an older machine such as a 5150, but I am doing some extensive tracing/logging in case anything bad happens, that I didn't want any performance issues. Thanks in advance, Mike From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 20:18:39 2006 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:18:39 -0800 Subject: Low-Level Format a Plus Hardcard 20 ? Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90612281818u72dc42bbp2fe027d38c7493e4@mail.gmail.com> I recently dug out an IBM XT to create some 5.25 floppy images and while I'm at it I thought I'd try to get the Plus Hardcard 20 installed it it working. (This is a dual floppy XT without an original IBM hard drive). Does anyone know how to low-level format the Plus Hardcard 20? There is ROM data at C800:0, but it doesn't look like g=C8000:5 would execute valid code so I don't think that is the trick with this drive. I searched the net for while but came up empty for useful info. -Glen From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Dec 28 20:26:58 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:26:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray In-Reply-To: <001e01c72ad7$f32fcd80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <20061229022658.49785.qmail@web83014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-rays can damage ICs. While searching for information on possible risks to electronics from x-ray security screening, I encountered a second-hand reference to a study to determine the safest X-ray wavelengths and exposure for nondestructive testing of high-reliability ICs. X-rays can inject faults into the silicon lattice, which degrade the quality of the transistors. I think the exposure that can be tolerated is affected by geometry (e.g., transistor size), so it might not be as much of an issue for older electronics as it is for newer stuff. Anybody know more? --Bill From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 28 20:28:49 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 20:28:49 -0600 Subject: Low-Level Format a Plus Hardcard 20 ? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90612281818u72dc42bbp2fe027d38c7493e4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90612281818u72dc42bbp2fe027d38c7493e4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45947D61.3030700@oldskool.org> Glen Slick wrote: > I recently dug out an IBM XT to create some 5.25 floppy images and > while I'm at it I thought I'd try to get the Plus Hardcard 20 > installed it it working. (This is a dual floppy XT without an > original IBM hard drive). > > Does anyone know how to low-level format the Plus Hardcard 20? There > is ROM data at C800:0, but it doesn't look like g=C8000:5 would > execute valid code so I don't think that is the trick with this drive. > I searched the net for while but came up empty for useful info. I ran into this as well and determined that you can only low-level it with the software that came with it. Why, is yours working and you just want to erase it? Or is it dead? If it's dead, you can toss the entire thing unless you can find a working one that you can use to copy the ROM. I have had 5 out of 6 hardcards die over the years because their ROM just... faded. I finally found a working Hardcard 20 last year because I was hoping the combined controller+drive would be faster than the MFM+ST-225 already in my XT... and I found it was no faster. 4:1 interleave, about 130KB/s sustained transfer rate. (I eventually replaced it with an 8-bit IDE card and a 320MB IDE drive and can now sustain 300KB/s, which appears to be a bus/card/cpu limit because the drive tests faster than that in a faster machine.) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From rcini at optonline.net Thu Dec 28 20:36:34 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 21:36:34 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray In-Reply-To: <20061229022658.49785.qmail@web83014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00c701c72af2$286aab40$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Isn't this why they make CPUs and other chips "RAD HARD" for aerospace/military use? I seem to remember a reference relating to the 1802 where one of its selling points was the sapphire substrate. Or am I suffering from bit rot? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Maddox Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:27 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray X-rays can damage ICs. While searching for information on possible risks to electronics from x-ray security screening, I encountered a second-hand reference to a study to determine the safest X-ray wavelengths and exposure for nondestructive testing of high-reliability ICs. X-rays can inject faults into the silicon lattice, which degrade the quality of the transistors. I think the exposure that can be tolerated is affected by geometry (e.g., transistor size), so it might not be as much of an issue for older electronics as it is for newer stuff. Anybody know more? --Bill From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 20:51:30 2006 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 18:51:30 -0800 Subject: Low-Level Format a Plus Hardcard 20 ? In-Reply-To: <45947D61.3030700@oldskool.org> References: <1e1fc3e90612281818u72dc42bbp2fe027d38c7493e4@mail.gmail.com> <45947D61.3030700@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90612281851l4336a33fldfda2c860353a3e3@mail.gmail.com> On 12/28/06, Jim Leonard wrote: > > I ran into this as well and determined that you can only low-level it > with the software that came with it. > > Why, is yours working and you just want to erase it? Or is it dead? If > it's dead, you can toss the entire thing unless you can find a working > one that you can use to copy the ROM. I have had 5 out of 6 hardcards > die over the years because their ROM just... faded. > One useful bit of info I found on the net said that if it doesn't seem to spin up, remove the card and bounce it drive end down on something like the sole of your shoe. I tried that and now it seems to spin up and boot to DOS. Usual stiction issue I guess. Do you have a copy of the software that came with a Plus Hardcard 20? More out of curiousity than anything else at this point. Maybe I'll just do a DOS format and reload DOS on it. Is DOS 3.3 an appropriate version? From grant at stockly.com Thu Dec 28 20:56:05 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 17:56:05 -0900 Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray In-Reply-To: <20061229022658.49785.qmail@web83014.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <001e01c72ad7$f32fcd80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228174224.03b18340@pop.1and1.com> At 05:26 PM 12/28/2006, you wrote: >X-rays can damage ICs. While searching for >information >on possible risks to electronics from x-ray security >screening, I encountered a second-hand reference to a >study to determine the safest X-ray wavelengths and >exposure for nondestructive testing of >high-reliability >ICs. X-rays can inject faults into the silicon >lattice, >which degrade the quality of the transistors. I think >the >exposure that can be tolerated is affected by geometry >(e.g., transistor size), so it might not be as much of >an >issue for older electronics as it is for newer stuff. > >Anybody know more? It was explained to me that the x-rays poked holes between silicon junctions which reduces conductivity and because of that the power dissipation kills the device. A study of the AVR mega103L shows that the device will literally "cook" itself before it is too damaged to continue operating. It can be used beyond the "cook" threshold by using a current limiting resistor. This threshold was somewhere in the 8,000 rad range for the AVR. I have the full study if you guys are interested in me posting it. I've read older documents that mention 50,000 rad before a PROM is erased. So there must be a gate size variable like you said. Most documents refer to putting the EPROMS right under the port. My board was 36" awa and was exposed to 17.8R/min. When ever you half the distance from the tube the radiation is increased 4 times (the inverse square law). So at 2.25" away from the tube we would have somewhere around 4,500R/min. This would make it get erased MUCH faster than at 36" like I had it. I've personally had an electronics board partially exposed to a linear accelerator. The Apple IIe board was scanned at 17.8R/min. The linear accelerator does a little over 3,000R/min at ONE METER! : ) We were imaging 8" thick steel blocks. The board was shielded with a few inches of lead, but its dose after a few hours of imaging was damaging. The MAX232 chip seemed more damaged than anything else, we trashed the whole board. It DID actually still work, but its not worth taking a chance... There were some weird symptoms when ever the linear accelerator was ramped up, but that could have been from the dual magnetrons taking 30,000v at 30A pulses to 6MeV. The main power coax cable is 1.5" diameter carrying 10,000v at 100A, but they said it was very well shielded. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 28 21:14:02 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 21:14:02 -0600 Subject: Low-Level Format a Plus Hardcard 20 ? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90612281851l4336a33fldfda2c860353a3e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90612281818u72dc42bbp2fe027d38c7493e4@mail.gmail.com> <45947D61.3030700@oldskool.org> <1e1fc3e90612281851l4336a33fldfda2c860353a3e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <459487FA.2070008@oldskool.org> Glen Slick wrote: > Do you have a copy of the software that came with a Plus Hardcard 20? I have the Plus Hardcard 40 software, which is most likely the same stuff. But if you've got it up and running, and you can see all 20MB, you don't need the software. > Is DOS 3.3 an appropriate > version? If it's the only drive in the system, and the system is 8088 or 8086, yes. 3.3 supports up to 32MB per partition, and if you are on an 808x you don't need the HMA/UMB/memory stuff of 5 and later. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Dec 28 21:14:40 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 21:14:40 -0600 Subject: Low-Level Format a Plus Hardcard 20 ? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90612281851l4336a33fldfda2c860353a3e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90612281818u72dc42bbp2fe027d38c7493e4@mail.gmail.com> <45947D61.3030700@oldskool.org> <1e1fc3e90612281851l4336a33fldfda2c860353a3e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45948820.2000503@oldskool.org> Glen Slick wrote: > One useful bit of info I found on the net said that if it doesn't seem > to spin up, remove the card and bounce it drive end down on something > like the sole of your shoe. I tried that and now it seems to spin up > and boot to DOS. Usual stiction issue I guess. Yes, but with all of mine that died, it wasn't stiction -- I could hear/feel it spin up but there was no firmware left on the card to drive it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 28 21:16:45 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 19:16:45 -0800 Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228174224.03b18340@pop.1and1.com> References: <001e01c72ad7$f32fcd80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <5.2.1.1.0.20061228174224.03b18340@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <4594889D.40307@sbcglobal.net> Grant Stockly wrote: > At 05:26 PM 12/28/2006, you wrote: > >> X-rays can damage ICs. While searching for >> information >> on possible risks to electronics from x-ray security >> screening, I encountered a second-hand reference to a >> study to determine the safest X-ray wavelengths and >> exposure for nondestructive testing of >> high-reliability >> ICs. X-rays can inject faults into the silicon >> lattice, >> which degrade the quality of the transistors. I think >> the >> exposure that can be tolerated is affected by geometry >> (e.g., transistor size), so it might not be as much of >> an >> issue for older electronics as it is for newer stuff. >> >> Anybody know more? > Most modern boards that use BGA's (ball grid arrays) are X-ray'ed to check for assembly defects. There must be some reasonable tolerance to X-rays by today's current technology chips. I'm currently working with Sony on a video project and have had our prototype board exposed 5 times already (testing various versions of a BGA chip). Anyone know what the exposure might be from the BGA inspection stations? Anyone heard of a limit to how many times a board can be exposed before I get worried? Bob From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Dec 28 21:31:31 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 19:31:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: TCP/IP Testing help In-Reply-To: <45947784.9040001@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at "Dec 28, 6 08:03:48 pm" Message-ID: <200612290331.kBT3VVwP023024@floodgap.com> > I'm looking for a little help testing my TCP/IP implementation from a > friendly audience. Works good from here. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If Ted Kennedy had driven a VW, he would be President now. ----------------- From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Dec 28 21:56:43 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 21:56:43 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help In-Reply-To: <150101c72aee$bcd7a2a0$0401a8c0@KSRPC> References: <45947784.9040001@brutman.com> <150101c72aee$bcd7a2a0$0401a8c0@KSRPC> Message-ID: <459491FB.1000501@brutman.com> Cool - I've been watching tcpdump on the Linux box, so I'm seeing the activity. I'll spare everybody and ask that people send me email (directly) only if they see a problem. I'm going to comb through the logs from the DOS box and the tcpdump when all is done to see if I missed any corner cases in the protocol. Straight TCP/IP is pretty fun to do. Getting the error handling down is not as easy. I'm also missing a few functions: - I'm not honoring the receive window from the other side. - I'm not detecting or cleaning up half-open connections. - I don't have a really robust algorithm for measuring round trip packet time and determining a timeout period. (I'm just defaulting to 10 secs ..) All of this will get fixed, but I was so desperate after a year of work to see this code do something. :-) Mike From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Dec 28 21:37:06 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 22:37:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228174224.03b18340@pop.1and1.com> References: <001e01c72ad7$f32fcd80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <5.2.1.1.0.20061228174224.03b18340@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <200612290355.WAA03987@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > My board was 36" awa and was exposed to 17.8R/min. When ever you > [halve] the distance from the tube the radiation is increased 4 times > (the inverse square law). Inverse square really applies only to non-collimated sources - as an extreme example, consider your typical laser pointer, which is perhaps half as bright at 500 feet as it is at one inch. :-) I don't know enough about X-ray tubes to know whether they follow inverse square or not, but I'd be hesitant to assume they do. (Or, of course, it could be that you already considered this and know inverse square applies, and this is all irrelevant.... :-) > There were some weird symptoms when ever the linear accelerator was > ramped up, but that could have been from the dual magnetrons taking > 30,000v at 30A pulses to 6MeV. The main power coax cable is 1.5" > diameter carrying 10,000v at 100A, but they said it was very well > shielded. Well, yes, but for that kind of power, "very well shielded" may well mean "all it does is crash all electronics within 10 metres, instead of permanently demagnetizing everything within a kilometer". :-) Years ago, I once had the privilege to approach a superconducting-loop "permanent magnet". Something like half a building away there were warning signs saying to carry nothing magnetic past this point. They said that if it quenches somehow, (a) it suddenly is up around room temperature, from the dissipated heat, and (b) it takes something like a day to remagnetize it, even after chilling it back to superconducting temperature again. I hate to think what the magnetic-field transient occurring when it quenches must do to anything conductive in the vicinity.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Dec 28 22:07:42 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 22:07:42 -0600 Subject: Wang 725-3488-US Keyboards References: <200612281800.kBSI0NEi011493@dewey.classiccmp.org> <52EF01B1-7D17-46FE-BBE5-5E443E4B7437@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00fe01c72afe$e4e6f6f0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> >A friend who recycles computers recently got a case of NIB Wang > keyboards. If there is any interest in same, please contact me off list. I know a couple people on the list were looking for those!! Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Dec 28 22:22:34 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 22:22:34 -0600 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay References: <05d601c72a71$6f79e900$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <017b01c72b00$f876ad30$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Alexander wrote... > I'm yet to see some "oddball" tube into a monitor. I use to replace > them here in Brazil with old mono VGA tubes. You've probably not seen an oddball tube in a pc monitor, but.... The tube used in the HP 264x series is uncommon size & curvature, as is the tube in my DG 5821NT terminal. Now, unless you have a source that can sell new tubes of custom size for less than $50 each, I think I'll take the time to go the Steve Loboyko route :) Come to think of it, very few of the crt tubes in my collection are easily replaceable with "off the shelf" parts. But then, maybe I'm just not familiar with the places that sell all different sizes & curvatures for reasonable prices. Maybe my tubes ARE stock sizes. But I don't seem to be able to find them :D Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Dec 28 22:47:45 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 22:47:45 -0600 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay References: <05d601c72a71$6f79e900$f0fea8c0@alpha> <017b01c72b00$f876ad30$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <01a801c72b04$7cc13990$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I had written.... > , I think I'll take the time to go the Steve Loboyko route I humbly apologize for my misstatement. It's not Steve's site apparently, which talks about removing and replacing the entire crt. Another listmember I guess... had a website showing a jig he built to hold the monitor and described cutting the safety glass off with a nichrome wire. I can't seem to find that site at the moment. Anyone recall what it is? Jay West From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Dec 28 22:56:05 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 20:56:05 -0800 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: <200612290112.kBT1AQqN017321@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612290112.kBT1AQqN017321@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <04072b24af52313c8619b10a2e0d9f10@valleyimplants.com> >> >> Mac portrait displays are presumably similarly difficult to get >> replacement >> CRTs for, at least without realigning the yoke (I gather that most >> CRTs don't >> like a change in orientation, although I used to run a Sun colour >> display on > > Do colour portrait displays exist? The reason I ask is that I wonder if > they use specially designed CRTs. IIRC, the whole point of the 'in line > gun' (PIL) CRT was that the 3 electron gus were in a horizontal line, > so > that only the vertical component of the earth's magnetic field had much > effect on the convergence, and that was relatively constant in a given > area. So if the CRT was set up properly you could move the unit around > without having to do a reconvergence (this was a problem with delta-gun > CRTs which had to be set up in the positionan nnd orientation where > they > were going to be used, but if that was done they give an excellent > picture). > > -tony For a time anyway Radius produced the Color Pivot portrait/landscape monitor. When I was at school I saw a LCD that had an adjustment for (what would that be? skew?) and for a while thought that someone had brought the concept back. No dice, though. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 28 23:01:06 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 22:01:06 -0700 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 28 Dec 2006 22:47:45 -0600. <01a801c72b04$7cc13990$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: In article <01a801c72b04$7cc13990$6600a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>, "Jay West" writes: > Another listmember I guess... had a website showing a jig he built to hold > the monitor and described cutting the safety glass off with a nichrome wire. > I can't seem to find that site at the moment. Anyone recall what it is? That sounds pretty hairy! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 29 00:57:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 22:57:33 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance Message-ID: <45944BDD.20379.6178867@cclist.sydex.com> Generally still OT, but on-topic regarding the maintainability of modern devices, did anyone perchance read the "A New Spin on White Goods" article in the December 15, Electronic Design? My clothes washer and dryer are going on 17 years and work just fine. I see no reason that I won'd get 20-25 years of service out of them. But reading about technology in the pipeline makes me wish they'd last forever. Motors controlled by DSPs with 10 A/D converters on chip, GUI displays, talk about inventorying the stuff in your refrigerator (using RFID tags on the food) really makes me wonder where the heck repair parts are going to come from when the new appliances are 20 years old. BTW, when I looked at replacement ovens over the last few days, I found that just about all of the new ones are loaded with features that I'll never use, such as "Sabbath Mode" (no kidding). It looks like a brave new world, folks. Cheers, Chuck From grant at stockly.com Fri Dec 29 01:26:58 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 22:26:58 -0900 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: <4593EDC7.25567.4A803C8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45944D62.9050806@oldskool.org> <200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4592FD2F.29994.FC365B@cclist.sydex.com> <45944D62.9050806@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228222631.015ebff8@pop.1and1.com> For a real good one, check this e-bay auction... 200063316479 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 29 01:40:29 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 23:40:29 -0800 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228222631.015ebff8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: Hi Check his shipping cost. I can't imagine how a manual could cost $41 to ship. Check his other sales. Most are also unrealistic as well. Of course, if he sells anything, it would pay for his time. Dwight >From: Grant Stockly > > >For a real good one, check this e-bay auction... > >200063316479 > _________________________________________________________________ Get FREE Web site and company branded e-mail from Microsoft Office Live http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ From sieler at allegro.com Thu Dec 28 14:43:00 2006 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 12:43:00 -0800 Subject: HP-3000 (was: HP HP-2117F on ebay) In-Reply-To: References: <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1F95@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wr> Message-ID: <4593BBD4.15878.8F2E6B@localhost> Re: > It seems there were a *lot* of models in the HP-3000 line. Is there > any sort of comprehensive guide to which came out when and what were > the differences between models? For Classic HP 3000s, look at our "Classic HP 3000 Genealogy spreadsheet" at http://www.allegro.com/papers/HP_3000_Genealogy.html For PA-RISC HP 3000s and HP 9000s, an out-of-date spreadsheet with some information is at http://www.allegro.com/papers/HPPA_Systems.html Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Dec 29 04:08:10 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 07:08:10 -0300 Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228141847.014d6408@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <08ee01c72b31$8ffb2020$f0fea8c0@alpha> > In preparation for cutting my Apple IIe motherboard in half I decided > it would help to have an x-ray of the board. This way it will be easy > to determine the most efficient cut line. Do you have higher resolution photos? I want to make a (big) picture to put on the wall :D > To put it in perspective, if a group of people were exposed to that > dose 50-90% would die after 30 days. (90% without intensive medical > care). Primary cause of death is internal bleeding and infections. > Females become permanently sterile. Were you wanting to stereilize the apple? :oD Man, that is a LOT of radiation! ;oO Why so much radiation? Greetz Alexandre From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 29 03:09:02 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 03:09:02 -0600 Subject: an ADM-3A cam in tod...ay In-Reply-To: <01a801c72b04$7cc13990$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <05d601c72a71$6f79e900$f0fea8c0@alpha> <017b01c72b00$f876ad30$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <01a801c72b04$7cc13990$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4594DB2E.6040002@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > Another listmember I guess... had a website showing a jig he built to > hold the monitor and described cutting the safety glass off with a > nichrome wire. Hmm... I found that the CRT was heavy enough not to move around anyway; I just put the CRT on its side (so I was cutting through the shorter edge) and cut from top to bottom, taking it slowly and backing out every so often as I was worried about the localised heat damaging the tube. I just used a surplus PC PSU and a stray bit of resistance wire, but the short edge of the HP's screen was only 8" maybe; something with a bit more kick would have been needed for a more conventional tube. > I can't seem to find that site at the moment. Anyone recall what it is? Afraid not - just looking at my archives now and I don't see anyone mentioning a site when I was talking with other listmembers about the HP above. Steve Loboyko, Dave Brown (both HP) and Bob Shannon (Imlac) appear to be the only others who had tried doing this at that point in time. cheers Jules From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Dec 29 05:13:09 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 08:13:09 -0300 Subject: ebay seller computermkt References: <45944D62.9050806@oldskool.org><200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org><4592FD2F.29994.FC365B@cclist.sydex.com><45944D62.9050806@oldskool.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20061228222631.015ebff8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <092a01c72b3a$7b8bde50$f0fea8c0@alpha> > For a real good one, check this e-bay auction... > 200063316479 $199 for a SV318??? What this guy is smoking? Can I have some? This is the strong brand! :oD (of course, I'm kidding about having some, but surely this is the stronger thing I've ever seen someone smoking!!!) :oD From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 29 08:28:24 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 09:28:24 -0500 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228222631.015ebff8@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <200612291428.kBTESRqw058717@keith.ezwind.net> On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 22:26:58 -0900, Grant Stockly wrote: >For a real good one, check this e-bay auction... >200063316479 An asking price is just that an ASKing price ... Looking at what he sold in the last few weeks ..... DEC 19 - Dec 29 10 days, 20 items and 9 sold with Best offers. Totals just shy of $1800 plus about $300 more in shipping. His feedback shows only 2 hits out of 424 as a seller both for shipping problems in 2.5 years. Vintage Bell & Howell Apple II Plus Works! 299.00 - 17.60 Vintage Tandy PC 1000 SX Works!!! 199.00 - 17.13 Vintage Franklin Ace 1000 Computer Works!!! 125.00 - 23.11 BO Rare Apple II C w Power Supply Works!!! 100.00 - 23.11 BO Rare Compaq Portable III Computer Works!!! 100.00 - 18.23 BO Rare Epson HX-20 Computer w/Expansion Unit 100.00 - 18.71 BO Rare HP Vectra 486-25N Computer Works!!! 99.99 - 15.90 Rare Hewlett Packard Vectra 486/33 DX Computer Works!!! 99.99 - 16.35 Rare TRS-80 16K level II mdl 26-1006 99.99 - 8.98 IBM 4869 External 5 1/4" 360K disk drive w/box/Manual 80.00 - 13.00 BO IBM RS/1 System Software Package Complete 5 1/4 75.00 - 3.99 BO Rare Leading Edge Mdl D w/Intel 8088 works!!! 69.99 - 15.89 Rare Commodore Pet 8032 Motherboard w/Visicalc Board 65.00 - 12.90 BO Vintage IBM PS/ValuePoint 466DX2/SI Works!! 50.00 - 22.11 Rare Compaq DeskPro 286N w/Intel 80286-12 50.00 - 15.90 BO Vintage IBM Mdl F Clicky 15 Pin Keyboard New nice!!! 49.99 - 20.11 BO BACKUP COPY OF CompuStar CP/M DISK 39.99 - 4.00 Very Rare Byte Magazine June 1978 29.99 - 3.99 The SuperCars Game Software IBM PC 5 1/4 1989 NIB 19.99 - 14.20 The Original IBM Basic Users Handbook 1984 18.99 - 6.05 Not a bad Christmas ... Mabe I will do it next year, with my junk :-) Bob Bradlee From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Dec 29 08:41:18 2006 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 09:41:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray In-Reply-To: <001e01c72ad7$f32fcd80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <20061229144118.7A2EC58828@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Evan Koblentz > > >>>> cutting my Apple IIe motherboard in half > > Why? > Evan, Evan, Evan... Ever see the *Portable* Atari 2600?! :) It is know as the VCSp and was done by Ben Heck. More info here: http://www.benheck.com , then scroll down and click on "VCSp Rev 1". Cheers, Bryan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Grant Stockly [mailto:grant at stockly.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:23 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray > > I posted this to CSA2 today. I figured you guys would want to download > these files. If you're anything like me, then you're a digital pack rat. ; > ) > > In preparation for cutting my Apple IIe motherboard in half I decided it > would help to have an x-ray of the board. This way it will be easy to > determine the most efficient cut line. > > I've included an X-Ray of a Disk II card just for fun. > > The X-Rays are at 300dpi. I'm not an X-Ray tech so my calibration was a > little off. Our resident X-ray guy is gone today. I'm not sure he would be > interested in an Apple IIe motherboard any way. ; ) Some areas are dark. > By adjusting "Levels" in photoshop you can bring them out. > > The motherboard received a dose rate of 17.84 R/min for the scans and > calibration. About 27 minutes (for 3 scans and a calibration). This would > have been a dose of 482 Rad. > > The Disk II card received the same dose rate, but it was in the vault for > the whole time the motherboard was in there. It received radiation for a > total of about 32 minutes. 571 Rad. > > To put it in perspective, if a group of people were exposed to that dose > 50-90% would die after 30 days. (90% without intensive medical care). > Primary cause of death is internal bleeding and infections. > Females become permanently sterile. > > Motherboard: > http://www.stockly.com/images2/061228-Apple_II_80kv6ma35ms36SFD-Cut%20Edges. > jpg > > Disk II: > http://www.stockly.com/images2/061228-Disk_II_80kv6ma35ms36SFD-Cut%20Edges.j > pg > > Any comments? > > Grant > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Dec 29 12:13:07 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 10:13:07 -0800 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/28/06, Richard wrote: > Classic case of abusing new/delete when all you need to do is declare > an instance of init_vars on the stack... That depends upon how large you made your stack and where it is. This is MS-DOS, and you're trying to reduce overall memory usage, after all. If a 1k stack is enough to handle your calls and returns, you should keep large temporaries on the heap, then release the unused portions of the heap back to the OS after initialization (assuming the IP stack is implemented as a TSR.) Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Dec 29 12:13:07 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 10:13:07 -0800 Subject: MS DOS overlay programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/28/06, Richard wrote: > Classic case of abusing new/delete when all you need to do is declare > an instance of init_vars on the stack... That depends upon how large you made your stack and where it is. This is MS-DOS, and you're trying to reduce overall memory usage, after all. If a 1k stack is enough to handle your calls and returns, you should keep large temporaries on the heap, then release the unused portions of the heap back to the OS after initialization (assuming the IP stack is implemented as a TSR.) Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Dec 29 12:24:40 2006 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 10:24:40 -0800 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help In-Reply-To: <45947784.9040001@brutman.com> References: <45947784.9040001@brutman.com> Message-ID: Connected fine from berkeley.edu From geneb at simpits.com Fri Dec 29 12:24:06 2006 From: geneb at simpits.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 10:24:06 -0800 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: <092a01c72b3a$7b8bde50$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <45944D62.9050806@oldskool.org><200612271641.kBRGf8bM087341@dewey.classiccmp.org><4592FD2F.29994.FC365B@cclist.sydex.com><45944D62.9050806@oldskool.org> <5.2.1.1.0.20061228222631.015ebff8@pop.1and1.com> <092a01c72b3a$7b8bde50$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <45955D46.3080101@simpits.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> For a real good one, check this e-bay auction... >> 200063316479 > > $199 for a SV318??? What this guy is smoking? Can I have some? This > is the strong brand! :oD > > (of course, I'm kidding about having some, but surely this is the > stronger thing I've ever seen someone smoking!!!) > > :oD If you think that's nuts, there is a guy selling a Kaypro II for $25,000. I don't have the auction # handy though. g. From grant at stockly.com Fri Dec 29 13:30:20 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 10:30:20 -0900 Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray In-Reply-To: <08ee01c72b31$8ffb2020$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228141847.014d6408@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061229101313.015e7540@pop.1and1.com> At 01:08 AM 12/29/2006, you wrote: >>In preparation for cutting my Apple IIe motherboard in half I decided >>it would help to have an x-ray of the board. This way it will be easy >>to determine the most efficient cut line. > > Do you have higher resolution photos? I want to make a (big) picture > to put on the wall :D 300dpi is pretty high for an x-ray. The only way I could get more is by doing geometric magnification. I don't have a detector that big at the moment hooked up. It's 42x52 inches at 72dpi. You need more than that? ; ) >>To put it in perspective, if a group of people were exposed to that >>dose 50-90% would die after 30 days. (90% without intensive medical >>care). Primary cause of death is internal bleeding and infections. >>Females become permanently sterile. > > Were you wanting to stereilize the apple? :oD Man, that is a LOT of > radiation! ;oO Why so much radiation? Each of the 3 shots I did was frame averaged by 4 to reduce noise. So I really did 12 x-rays you could say. I left the motherboard in the vault during calibration and tube warmup because I didn't care about the dose. That added about 4 shots worth of dose. I also used at a fairly low energy level (80kv) so that the image would have the most contrast possible. Reducing the resolution to 150dpi would have required half the dose also. People just can't take radiation. Anything other than animals like metal, ceramics, etc don't get hurt from radiation. ; ) The dose rate of a linear accelerator that we're working with is 4000R/min. Every 15 seconds it will put out the same dose that the Apple IIe got in 32 minutes. ; ) (At the same distance in each test) Grant From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 29 14:20:12 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 12:20:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Compaq floppy drive compatibility Message-ID: <20061229202013.20214.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Before I open up both the Plus and the Portable II, can anyone tell me if the floppy drives are swappable? Obviously the Plus can't utilize a HD drive, but what about the other way around? Much appreciated. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Dec 29 14:30:03 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 14:30:03 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help In-Reply-To: <45947784.9040001@brutman.com> References: <45947784.9040001@brutman.com> Message-ID: <45957ACB.7060105@brutman.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > Greetings .. > > I'm looking for a little help testing my TCP/IP implementation from a > friendly audience. > > All you need to do is telnet to 24.159.203.149, port 2301. > 24.159.203.149 is my Linux box, and it port forwards 2301 to my 386-40, > which is running my homebrew TCP/IP. You will get a small server > program that lets you see available memory, currently open socket > connections, and the DOS version & BIOS date of the machine the code is > running on. > > Up to 9 people can connect simultaneously. I'm hoping to get a few > hundred connections from varying machines to see how it behaves. > > I'd have run it on an older machine such as a 5150, but I am doing some > extensive tracing/logging in case anything bad happens, that I didn't > want any performance issues. > > > Thanks in advance, > Mike > > Ok, it's broken! Testing is over for now ... (The heap became corrupted sometime within the last hour. Time to start reading traces.) Thanks for all of the help. It wasn't as much traffic as I would have liked, but it's broken just the same. :-) Mike From spc at conman.org Fri Dec 29 14:27:58 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 15:27:58 -0500 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help In-Reply-To: <45957ACB.7060105@brutman.com> References: <45947784.9040001@brutman.com> <45957ACB.7060105@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20061229202758.GC8705@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Michael B. Brutman once stated: > > Ok, it's broken! Testing is over for now ... > > (The heap became corrupted sometime within the last hour. Time to start > reading traces.) Well, I did telnet in, typed a few commands, then typed a bunch of control characters (like Ctrl-C) that seemed to break the simple program you were running at the other end of the TCP connection. I didn't write anything since it didn't seem like a TCP problem. > Thanks for all of the help. It wasn't as much traffic as I would have > liked, but it's broken just the same. :-) Hmmm ... do you support ICMP? A good test might be ping with huge packets. -spc (If you have access to a Unix system, nc (netcat) would be a good utility to use as well ... ) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 29 16:05:34 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:05:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray In-Reply-To: <671109.32939.qm@web52705.mail.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Dec 28, 6 05:06:51 pm Message-ID: > > Wow - that is _really_ cool. I wish I had access to an > X-ray machine - it certainally would make reverse > engineering/repairing boards a lot easier. Although I > wonder what a complicated multilayer board would look > like. Probably unintelligible, but then again, the > hardware we all work with doesn't have complicated > multilayer boards. Well, if the board is just double sided (i.e. all tracks visible, except where they pass under components), you can generally trace tracks by eye and confirm with an ohmmeter. And if there are internal tracks, I think tracing those from an X-ray image wouldn't be exactly trivial. For boards where the layout of the tracks is not critical (that is, there are no inductive or capactive couplings between tracks), I've never had any problems tracing out the connections with an ohhmeter. You have to desolder components that will test as dead shorts (inductors, transformers, low-value resistors) of course, but such components generally have few conenctions are are not hard to remove. If the layout is critical, of course, you have problems. Mind you, I'd love to see anyone fiogure out the HP9100 ROM board (14 layers, or is it 16) from an X-ray image of the board. That is probably the worst example you'll find in a classic computer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 29 16:20:21 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:20:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <45944BDD.20379.6178867@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 28, 6 10:57:33 pm Message-ID: > > Generally still OT, but on-topic regarding the maintainability of > modern devices, did anyone perchance read the "A New Spin on White > Goods" article in the December 15, Electronic Design? > > My clothes washer and dryer are going on 17 years and work just fine. > I see no reason that I won'd get 20-25 years of service out of them. > But reading about technology in the pipeline makes me wish they'd > last forever. I made comments like this a couple of weeks ago and was roasted alive for them. Oh well.... > > Motors controlled by DSPs with 10 A/D converters on chip, GUI > displays, talk about inventorying the stuff in your refrigerator Ouch. Those old cam timers were repairiable. I've never had a cam fail, the motors are pretty much interchangeable, and switch contacts can be repaired (either using bits of old relay contacts, or by using the burnt, but still jsut about working contacts in the time to switch a relay). But I wouldn't fancy having to repair a board with a single ASIC on it that contains a programmed microcontroller amongst other stuff. Te presense of an 'old fashioned' rotating program knob doesn't imply a fully electromecahanical timer. I've seen at least one washing machine where there was a motor-drivven cam stack, but the timer motor (and some otehr bits of the machien) were controller by an ASIC (with feedback contacts on the cam stack to tell said ASIC where it had got to). And of course some eyars ago, 'electronic control' was reserved for the high-end models, you could get a mechancial timer by buying a cheap machine. Now, of coruse, microcontrolers are a lot cheaper than motors and cams, so all machines have the electronic control (the same sort of thing applies to car engines. 20 years ago, a 16 valve (4 cylinder) twin overhard camshaft, fuel ingjected engine with an ignition coil for each spark plug (no distributor) would have been reserved for a high-performance car. My father's new car, a base model Skoda, has such an engine) > (using RFID tags on the food) really makes me wonder where the heck > repair parts are going to come from when the new appliances are 20 > years old. You're not. Jsut as you won't find parts for today's computers, LCD and Plasma TVs (as I understand it, a lot of those are board-swap-only repairs, no schematisc or components availalbe), and so on. I'm sticking to the classics. > BTW, when I looked at replacement ovens over the last few days, I > found that just about all of the new ones are loaded with features > that I'll never use, such as "Sabbath Mode" (no kidding). What the heck is Sabbath Mode? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 29 16:31:53 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:31:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Compaq floppy drive compatibility In-Reply-To: <20061229202013.20214.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Dec 29, 6 12:20:12 pm Message-ID: > > Before I open up both the Plus and the Portable II, > can anyone tell me if the floppy drives are swappable? > Obviously the Plus can't utilize a HD drive, but what > about the other way around? Much appreciated. One thing I'll warn you about is that the ribbon cables may not be what they seem. They have 20 pin connectors on the end, but some of the 'wires' don't exist, that position on the cable is solid plasic. Confused the hell out of me when I was looking isside a Mac+. 'Why is there -5V at that end of f the cable and the external eject signmal at that end????' I am told the colour of the 'pin 1' stripe has some significance, but I don't know the code. -tony From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Dec 29 17:30:45 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 17:30:45 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help In-Reply-To: <45957ACB.7060105@brutman.com> References: <45947784.9040001@brutman.com> <45957ACB.7060105@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4595A525.4020108@brutman.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Ok, it's broken! Testing is over for now ... > > (The heap became corrupted sometime within the last hour. Time to start > reading traces.) > > Thanks for all of the help. It wasn't as much traffic as I would have > liked, but it's broken just the same. :-) > > > Mike > > And just for the record, the cause of the heap corruption was probably me calling free twice on the same piece of allocated memory. I didn't trace out the exact call flow that caused the problem, but I can see where I could free the same buffer twice. And if you do that, TC++ 3.0 will report a corrupted heap. I allocated the memory with malloc, not new, so C must be bad and C++ is superior. ;-) Mike From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 29 17:30:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 15:30:35 -0800 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: References: <45944BDD.20379.6178867@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 28, 6 10:57:33 pm, Message-ID: <4595349B.24749.9A4AFAA@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Dec 2006 at 22:20, Tony Duell wrote: > What the heck is Sabbath Mode? As near as I can figure, it's a way to defeat the automatic-off feature (about 12 hours) for many modern ovens. Orthodox Jews are not allowed to power an appliance on during the Sabbath (from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday), but are allowed to use one already on, so Sabbath Mode allows them to override the safety and keep the oven at some preset temperature for 24 hours or more. Yes, I'm wondering why a timer wouldn't do the same thing without consuming an inordinate amount of power. Must be a religious nuance. There, aren't you glad you asked? Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Dec 29 17:41:37 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 15:41:37 -0800 Subject: OpenVMS VAX 7.2 Message-ID: I'm running a VAX 4000/200 with OpenVMS 7.2 (Hobbyist V2) on it, and I'm having terrible problems with the networking. (DIGITAL TCP/IP/UCX v5.0). It seems that there were some bugs in this release, but I'm not yet sure exactly how to find the fixes for them (and the HP/DIGITAL website doesn't seem to be very helpful). Especially when running telnet, the VAX slows to a crawl. What have other members with this problem (and no access to newer UCXes at work or other locations) done? From grant at stockly.com Fri Dec 29 18:07:56 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 15:07:56 -0900 Subject: X-ray board restoration and Altair 8800/Macintosh X-ray Was: Apple IIe X-Ray In-Reply-To: References: <671109.32939.qm@web52705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061229144920.01517160@pop.1and1.com> >Well, if the board is just double sided (i.e. all tracks visible, except >where they pass under components), you can generally trace tracks by eye >and confirm with an ohmmeter. And if there are internal tracks, I think >tracing those from an X-ray image wouldn't be exactly trivial. Before you read the text below, am willing to help anyone out who has equipment they want to reproduce (as far as getting the x-ray goes)...but its not a fast and easy method. It isn't easy, and I would advise against it. If you have 4 layer product, TWO boards and are willing to throw one away, then it is cheap and easy. I wouldn't have ever came out with www.altairkit.com without the guys at www.mhtest.com. They will take your 2-3-4-etc layer board and generate production ready cad drawings. A 2 layer board does not need to be destroyed, however a 4 layer board will need to be "planed" so that they can scan the inner layers. Most 4 layer boards just have a VCC and GND power planes, so the top and bottom are the signals. I still wouldn't use the x-ray to generate the cad artwork. Been there... ; ) Here are two shots of a Mac 512k motherboard. You can see the difference. This is what a 4 layer board CAN look like. You can see the holes in the middle layers where the through hole devices go through. http://media.diywelder.com/images3/090605-512kRAM.jpg http://media.diywelder.com/images3/090605-512kProcessor.jpg Take a look at my website at www.altairkit.com and read the story link. I first tried to duplicate the boards with x-ray, and even developed a way to do it (it just takes a lot of time). The method involves scanning the back of the board as an image and combining it with the x-ray. The grey traces will be on the top and the orange ones will be on the bottom. X-ray of Altair 8800 CPU board: http://www.stockly.com/images2/060119-Altair_8800_CPU_BD_Rev0-XRAY.jpg The photo scan of the Altair 8800 CPU board: http://www.stockly.com/images2/060119-Altair_8800_CPU_BD_Rev0_Back-Flipped-Cropped-Rotated.jpg The x-ray / photo composite: http://www.stockly.com/images2/060119-Altair_8800_CPU_BD_Rev0-Composite.jpg Grant From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Dec 29 19:40:07 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:40:07 -0300 Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228141847.014d6408@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20061229101313.015e7540@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <0b4901c72bb3$d93666f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Each of the 3 shots I did was frame averaged by 4 to reduce noise. So I > really did 12 x-rays you could say. I left the motherboard in the vault > during calibration and tube warmup because I didn't care about the dose. > That added about 4 shots worth of dose. I also used at a fairly low > energy level (80kv) so that the image would have the most contrast > possible. Reducing the resolution to 150dpi would have required half the > dose also. And with so much radiation being shot onto metals and like, does it became radioactive? I have some MSX here that I want to "give it a shot" (pun intended) hehehe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 29 18:48:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 00:48:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <4595349B.24749.9A4AFAA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 29, 6 03:30:35 pm Message-ID: > > On 29 Dec 2006 at 22:20, Tony Duell wrote: > > > What the heck is Sabbath Mode? > > As near as I can figure, it's a way to defeat the automatic-off > feature (about 12 hours) for many modern ovens. Orthodox Jews are > not allowed to power an appliance on during the Sabbath (from sunset > Friday to sunset Saturday), but are allowed to use one already on, so > Sabbath Mode allows them to override the safety and keep the oven at > some preset temperature for 24 hours or more. Yes, I'm wondering why > a timer wouldn't do the same thing without consuming an inordinate > amount of power. Must be a religious nuance. I give up!. I thought one of the alleged advantages of modern stuff was that it saved engery. Not that it wasted ridiculous amounts of it. > > There, aren't you glad you asked? Actually, I'm even more glad I'm using a cooker with the right number of ICs controling it. Namely zero. -tony From grant at stockly.com Fri Dec 29 18:49:42 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 15:49:42 -0900 Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray In-Reply-To: <0b4901c72bb3$d93666f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228141847.014d6408@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20061229101313.015e7540@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061229154633.015e7e88@pop.1and1.com> At 04:40 PM 12/29/2006, you wrote: >>Each of the 3 shots I did was frame averaged by 4 to reduce noise. So I >>really did 12 x-rays you could say. I left the motherboard in the vault >>during calibration and tube warmup because I didn't care about the dose. >>That added about 4 shots worth of dose. I also used at a fairly low >>energy level (80kv) so that the image would have the most contrast >>possible. Reducing the resolution to 150dpi would have required half the >>dose also. > > And with so much radiation being shot onto metals and like, does it > became radioactive? > > I have some MSX here that I want to "give it a shot" (pun intended) > hehehe No. It doesn't become radioactive. That's a joke played on new guys who leave their lunch in the vault. You can offer to properly dispose of it. ; ) I can take a picture of the MSK. You just have to mail it to alaska. ; ) Grant From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Dec 29 18:54:23 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 18:54:23 -0600 Subject: SCSI CD cabinets Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229184648.0e6e67e0@localhost> Oh my, what am I going to do with these MDI SCSI CD boxes? I have 3 or 4 of them, each one containing seven CD-ROM drives, a power supply, and some kind of logical unit controller, so all 7 drives appear a LUNs under one SCSI address. The drives are Toshiba XM-5301B, a 4x tray-type (doesn't need caddies) that works sideways or in the more usual orientation. Specs here, from http://www.netcomdirect.com/tosxm4xfonco.html CD-ROM Mode 1 -data discs CD-ROM Mode 2 - data discs CD-DA audio discs CD-DA/ROM - Mixed mode/combined CD-ROM XA and Photo CD (Single and Multisession) CD-Bridge (White book, Video CD) CD-I, CD-I ready The cabinets are 17" but with ears for std rack mount, 7 inches high, depth behind the rack 20 inches. Anyone (local) want some? Anyone got any ideas what to DO with them? -Tom [Love] Once he drew With one long kiss my whole soul thro' My lips, as sunlight drinketh dew. --Alfred Tennyson (1809-1892) Fatima --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Dec 29 18:53:31 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 19:53:31 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray In-Reply-To: <0b4901c72bb3$d93666f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228141847.014d6408@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20061229101313.015e7540@pop.1and1.com> <0b4901c72bb3$d93666f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <200612291953.31826.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 29 December 2006 20:40, Alexandre Souza wrote: > And with so much radiation being shot onto metals and like, does > it became radioactive? No. You can't make things radioactive using x-rays any more than you can make things radioactive by shining any other form of light on them. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Dec 29 19:15:18 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 19:15:18 -0600 Subject: Thicknet Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229191320.0da84568@localhost> Anyone have an urgent need for 300' of thicknet? Never been used, approx 117m (according to the writing on the spool) with one cut end and one N-connector on the other end. It's 50ohm cable right? Maybe I can use it for amateur radio, if I keep it indoors away from the UV. [Oops] It's a question of whether we're going to go forward into the future, or past into the back. --Dan Quayle --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Dec 29 19:17:54 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 17:17:54 -0800 Subject: OpenVMS VAX 7.2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:41 PM -0800 12/29/06, Scott Quinn wrote: >I'm running a VAX 4000/200 with OpenVMS 7.2 (Hobbyist V2) on it, and >I'm having terrible problems with the networking. (DIGITAL >TCP/IP/UCX v5.0). It seems that there were some bugs in this >release, but I'm not yet sure exactly how to find the fixes for them >(and the HP/DIGITAL website doesn't seem to be very helpful). >Especially when running telnet, the VAX slows to a crawl. What have >other members with this problem (and no access to newer UCXes at >work or other locations) done? ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/layered_products/vax ftp://ftp.itrc.hp.com/openvms_patches/vax/V7.2 I don't see any patches for TCPIP 5.0 though. Something else to consider would be getting the Hobbyist PAK's for Multinet or TCPware from Process software. The current versions of both should run on 7.2 (I'm running the current version of Multinet on VAX/VMS 5.5-2). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 29 19:58:32 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 18:58:32 -0700 Subject: X-ray board restoration and Altair 8800/Macintosh X-ray Was: Apple IIe X-Ray In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 29 Dec 2006 15:07:56 -0900. <5.2.1.1.0.20061229144920.01517160@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: In article <5.2.1.1.0.20061229144920.01517160 at pop.1and1.com>, Grant Stockly writes: > >Well, if the board is just double sided (i.e. all tracks visible, except > >where they pass under components), you can generally trace tracks by eye > >and confirm with an ohmmeter. And if there are internal tracks, I think > >tracing those from an X-ray image wouldn't be exactly trivial. > > Before you read the text below, am willing to help anyone out who has > equipment they want to reproduce (as far as getting the x-ray goes)...but > its not a fast and easy method. > [...] The x-rays are cool, but I think if I was intending to reverse engineer the board, I'd remove all the components from the board first, although I think that probably also falls into the "have a 2nd board you don't care about" category... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From josefcub at gmail.com Fri Dec 29 22:46:48 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:46:48 -0600 Subject: OpenVMS VAX 7.2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9e2403920612292046h47b63e1bv4c682ba6d7dca55d@mail.gmail.com> Scott, > At 3:41 PM -0800 12/29/06, Scott Quinn wrote: > >I'm running a VAX 4000/200 with OpenVMS 7.2 (Hobbyist V2) on it, and > >I'm having terrible problems with the networking. (DIGITAL > >TCP/IP/UCX v5.0). It seems that there were some bugs in this > >release, but I'm not yet sure exactly how to find the fixes for them > >(and the HP/DIGITAL website doesn't seem to be very helpful). > >Especially when running telnet, the VAX slows to a crawl. What have > >other members with this problem (and no access to newer UCXes at > >work or other locations) done? If you're telnetting into the VAX from Linux, make sure to issue: 'export TERM=vt100' before you connect with the telnet command. The string 'xterm' especially drives your VAX CPU usage through the roof, for some reason I was never told. All I know is that specifying 'vt100' or another terminal type VAX knows will solve that problem easily. Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From josefcub at gmail.com Fri Dec 29 22:47:56 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:47:56 -0600 Subject: OpenVMS VAX 7.2 In-Reply-To: <9e2403920612292046h47b63e1bv4c682ba6d7dca55d@mail.gmail.com> References: <9e2403920612292046h47b63e1bv4c682ba6d7dca55d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920612292047j7fb6ace8wf08f95cea7618e7a@mail.gmail.com> On 12/29/06, Josef Chessor wrote: > Scott, > > > At 3:41 PM -0800 12/29/06, Scott Quinn wrote: > > >I'm running a VAX 4000/200 with OpenVMS 7.2 (Hobbyist V2) on it, and > > >I'm having terrible problems with the networking. (DIGITAL > > >TCP/IP/UCX v5.0). It seems that there were some bugs in this > > >release, but I'm not yet sure exactly how to find the fixes for them > > >(and the HP/DIGITAL website doesn't seem to be very helpful). > > >Especially when running telnet, the VAX slows to a crawl. What have > > >other members with this problem (and no access to newer UCXes at > > >work or other locations) done? > > If you're telnetting into the VAX from Linux, make sure to issue: > > 'export TERM=vt100' before you connect with the telnet command. The > string 'xterm' especially drives your VAX CPU usage through the roof, > for some reason I was never told. All I know is that specifying > 'vt100' or another terminal type VAX knows will solve that problem > easily. > The terminal type 'xterm', and the terminal types that VMS knows. I've definitely had no sleep lately. >_> > Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Dec 30 01:48:11 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 23:48:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: X-ray board restoration and Altair 8800/Macintosh X-ray Was: Apple IIe X-Ray In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Dec 2006, Richard wrote: > The x-rays are cool, but I think if I was intending to reverse > engineer the board, I'd remove all the components from the board > first, although I think that probably also falls into the "have a 2nd > board you don't care about" category... I was puzzled about that... Why weren't the chips removed before putting it in the machine? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From grant at stockly.com Sat Dec 30 01:57:36 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 22:57:36 -0900 Subject: X-ray board restoration and Altair 8800/Macintosh X-ray Was: Apple IIe X-Ray In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061229225543.015374e0@pop.1and1.com> At 10:48 PM 12/29/2006, you wrote: >On Fri, 29 Dec 2006, Richard wrote: > > > The x-rays are cool, but I think if I was intending to reverse > > engineer the board, I'd remove all the components from the board > > first, although I think that probably also falls into the "have a 2nd > > board you don't care about" category... > >I was puzzled about that... Why weren't the chips removed before putting >it in the machine? Not with the pictures I posted. The little squares in the middle of the ICs is the die. I have a CD player with blown bearings. I guess a fun test would be to see how many rads it will take to kill the music? Anyone up for that? :D From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Dec 29 17:20:39 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2006 23:20:39 +0000 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4595A2C7.5060905@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> Generally still OT, but on-topic regarding the maintainability of >> modern devices, did anyone perchance read the "A New Spin on White >> Goods" article in the December 15, Electronic Design? >> >> My clothes washer and dryer are going on 17 years and work just fine. >> I see no reason that I won'd get 20-25 years of service out of them. >> But reading about technology in the pipeline makes me wish they'd >> last forever. > > I made comments like this a couple of weeks ago and was roasted alive for > them. Oh well.... > >> Motors controlled by DSPs with 10 A/D converters on chip, GUI >> displays, talk about inventorying the stuff in your refrigerator > > Ouch. Those old cam timers were repairiable. I've never had a cam fail, > the motors are pretty much interchangeable, and switch contacts can be > repaired (either using bits of old relay contacts, or by using the burnt, > but still jsut about working contacts in the time to switch a relay). But > I wouldn't fancy having to repair a board with a single ASIC on it that > contains a programmed microcontroller amongst other stuff. > > Te presense of an 'old fashioned' rotating program knob doesn't imply a > fully electromecahanical timer. I've seen at least one washing machine > where there was a motor-drivven cam stack, but the timer motor (and some > otehr bits of the machien) were controller by an ASIC (with feedback > contacts on the cam stack to tell said ASIC where it had got to). > > And of course some eyars ago, 'electronic control' was reserved for the > high-end models, you could get a mechancial timer by buying a cheap > machine. Now, of coruse, microcontrolers are a lot cheaper than motors > and cams, so all machines have the electronic control > > (the same sort of thing applies to car engines. 20 years ago, a 16 valve > (4 cylinder) twin overhard camshaft, fuel ingjected engine with an > ignition coil for each spark plug (no distributor) would have been > reserved for a high-performance car. My father's new car, a base model > Skoda, has such an engine) As I said earlier, though, that's probably for emissions reasons more than price or performance. A modern 2.2 litre 16-valve engine may produce slightly more power at rather higher revs than the 8-valve carburettor-fed PSA Douvrin in my CX, but at the expense of losing quite a lot of torque. I still hate working on carburettors though. Fuel injection is way simpler. > >> BTW, when I looked at replacement ovens over the last few days, I >> found that just about all of the new ones are loaded with features >> that I'll never use, such as "Sabbath Mode" (no kidding). > > What the heck is Sabbath Mode? I'm guessing it's something where you can put food in the night before, and it will cook and shut itself off the next day. Certain faiths require that you do no work on the Sabbath, and that includes cooking. I went to school with people whose mothers would prepare the Sunday meal late on Saturday night, to be eaten cold after coming home from church. Some of them wouldn't even use electric light on a Sunday, so in the winter they'd be sitting in the dark from about 4pm onwards. And people think Muslims are bad for crazy religious fundamentalism... Gordon. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Dec 30 03:51:22 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 10:51:22 +0100 Subject: Thicknet In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229191320.0da84568@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229191320.0da84568@localhost> Message-ID: <20061230105122.2c8ecfce@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 19:15:18 -0600 Tom Peters wrote: > It's 50ohm cable right? Maybe I can use it for amateur radio, if I > keep it indoors away from the UV. Thicknet is about the same as RG213. So: Yes. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Dec 30 05:11:35 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 08:11:35 -0300 Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228141847.014d6408@pop.1and1.com><5.2.1.1.0.20061229101313.015e7540@pop.1and1.com> <5.2.1.1.0.20061229154633.015e7e88@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <0ba301c72c03$92d95870$f0fea8c0@alpha> > No. It doesn't become radioactive. That's a joke played on new guys who > leave their lunch in the vault. You can offer to properly dispose of it. > ; ) Looking for Brazilian MSX? So bad shipping is so expensive, I have 10 Expert MSX here, and some others :oP > I can take a picture of the MSK. You just have to mail it to alaska. ; ) Maybe if I ask Santa to take one home and you get it with him? :oD From wizard at voyager.net Sat Dec 30 05:13:18 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 06:13:18 -0500 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1167477198.27358.28.camel@linux.site> On Sat, 2006-12-30 at 00:48 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > Actually, I'm even more glad I'm using a cooker with the right number of > ICs controling it. Namely zero. Actually, the PROPER way to do it is to have a communications link so one can simply hook it up to the home network, and either telnet to it, or open a Web page on it to control the process. This allows for various things like a cron job on a Unix machine that fires up a load of wash when there's plenty of hot water in the solar panels, or when power from the grid is cheaper, depending on the individual configuration. The machine itself should have only a simple user-programmable microprocessor with internal RAM and ROM. (ducking) Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Sat Dec 30 05:24:16 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 06:24:16 -0500 Subject: Thicknet In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229191320.0da84568@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229191320.0da84568@localhost> Message-ID: <1167477856.27358.32.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-12-29 at 19:15 -0600, Tom Peters wrote: > It's 50ohm cable right? Maybe I can use it for amateur radio, if I keep it > indoors away from the UV. Yes. > WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters Holy colostomy bag, Batman! The colon is gone! (You know, the one after the "http" in the URL. > 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc Thank you -- that will greatly ease the targeting, for anyone interested. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 30 06:00:23 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 06:00:23 -0600 Subject: SCSI CD cabinets In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229184648.0e6e67e0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229184648.0e6e67e0@localhost> Message-ID: <459654D7.2070409@yahoo.co.uk> Tom Peters wrote: > Oh my, what am I going to do with these MDI SCSI CD boxes? I have 3 or 4 > of them, each one containing seven CD-ROM drives, a power supply, and > some kind of logical unit controller, so all 7 drives appear a LUNs > under one SCSI address. Replace the CD drives with DVD ones and run your own 'net-based movie theatre? Or: stack them all up and write a program to eject and load the trays according to a timer - the effect would probably be rather captivating as some sort of "drive tray sine wave" traveled up the stack... OK, so I can't think of any *good* ideas. ;) From john3000 at cox.net Sat Dec 30 09:49:07 2006 From: john3000 at cox.net (John K.) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 10:49:07 -0500 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20061230103859.0248e118@pop.east.cox.net> Hi Will, Look for an Apple II with the "Alpha Centauri" (or did they call it "Alpha Syntauri"?) package. It was fantastic! It used two cards from a company named "Mountain Hardware" and was an amazing synthesizer with 5 octave AGO keyboard and waveform design software. It was polyphonic but I don't remember the number of voices. I had the pleasure of using one while at George Mason University in Fairfax Virginia. We bought one (I was a computer center administrator there at the time) for evaluation and then bought more for the music department, and they loved them! If you can find one, it will be a real treasure! I don't remember if I have any recordings, and if I do they would be on cassette tapes that would be nearly 30 years old. I did use a lot of metal tape back in those days, so if the binder on the tape is still good, they may be playable. First, I'll have to see if any of the recordings still exist, and that will have to wait until I'm recovered (bronchitis). Good luck with your project! John At 12/24/2006 04:08 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >I am currently working on a project involving music made with >computers before MIDI. Some aspects and examples might be the old >mainframes playing tunes on band printers, minicomputers making tunes >with RFI, microcomputers controlling analog synthesizers, and so >forth. > >I have no strict timeline on this, but I would like to pull things >together in a few months maximum. > >Things I am looking for: > >1) Recordings of 2nd generation (or even before, if they exist) >mainframes making tunes. There are a few recordings out there, and I >may be getting some help from CHM for more. > >2) A working 1970s era minicomputer with core, probably a PDP-8 or >Nova, that is reliable enough to make a performance. > >3) A 1970s era microcomputer controlling an analog synthesizer. > >4) Outstanding examples of Atari and/or C64s making music. > >5) Leads to artists and musicians that used classic computers in >recordings, famous or not. Decent quality MP3s would be great. > >6) An example of the HP printer (a deskjet?) that contains the musical >Easter Egg, operational. > >7) Any examples of music made by computer algorithms, remixes by >computer, and so forth. Experimental works are welcome. > >8) Any suggestions to expand this. The computers need not be classics, >the music need not be oddball, but the results should be a little on >the weird side (for example, I do not need a Pentium 3 running >Protools making trance). > >While I am not looking to buy any of these machines, I am looking for >examples that are very reliable, and can travel to New Jersey for a >Saturday morning (probably). Appearance is not important, being this >will all take place in a studio. > >There is a very slim chance I can provide the minicomputer, but all my >tapes are lost in limbo, so I doubt it. Being a PDP-8/S, normal PDP-8 >music tapes will not work. There is also a chance I can provide a >Minimoog synthesizer, if someone can provide the microcomputer with >D/A cards (for the control voltages) and some sort of software for >making a tune. > >So please go and think about this, and tell me what you think, and if >you can contribute. Certainly proper credit will be given to those >that can help out, but sorry, no money. I am not getting paid for this >either. > >Thank you for your time. > >-- >Will John *** When replying to this message, please do not delete these *** *** signature lines. Otakon Katsucon HP3000-L @classiccmp.org *** *** DigitalCosplay.com JohnKorbPhoto.com JohnPKorb.com *** From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Dec 30 11:26:45 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 09:26:45 -0800 Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray Message-ID: <07f583d10ab430dcf7dff1e4e977e19f@valleyimplants.com> > And with so much radiation being shot onto metals and like, does it > became radioactive? > > I have some MSX here that I want to "give it a shot" (pun intended) > hehehe > Remeber- two types of radiation: particle (Alpha, Beta, neutrons, protons) and electromagnetic (gamma, X-ray, radio, light, etc). The particles can make things radioactive, the electromagnetic radiation cannot. From jrr at flippers.com Sat Dec 30 11:24:06 2006 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 09:24:06 -0800 Subject: Apple IIe Motherboard X-Ray In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228141847.014d6408@pop.1and1.com> References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061228141847.014d6408@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: At 2:23 PM -0900 12/28/06, Grant Stockly wrote: >I posted this to CSA2 today. I figured you guys would want to >download these files. If you're anything like me, then you're a >digital pack rat. ; ) > >In preparation for cutting my Apple IIe motherboard in half I decided >it would help to have an x-ray of the board. This way it will be easy >to determine the most efficient cut line. > Based on the X-Ray you could fold that board in THREE parts to fit in even tighter... John :-#)# From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 30 13:11:54 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 11:11:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Compaq floppy drive compatibility Message-ID: <20061230191154.74981.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> are we talking about the same puters lol? --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > Before I open up both the Plus and the Portable II, > > can anyone tell me if the floppy drives are swappable? > > Obviously the Plus can't utilize a HD drive, but what > > about the other way around? Much appreciated. > > One thing I'll warn you about is that the ribbon cables may not be what > they seem. They have 20 pin connectors on the end, but some of the > 'wires' don't exist, that position on the cable is solid plasic. Confused > the hell out of me when I was looking isside a Mac+. 'Why is there -5V at > that end of f the cable and the external eject signmal at that end????' I > am told the colour of the 'pin 1' stripe has some significance, but I > don't know the code. > > -tony __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Dec 30 13:19:16 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 11:19:16 -0800 Subject: conon Laser Beam Printer LBP8 In-Reply-To: <4593BBD4.15878.8F2E6B@localhost> Message-ID: Hi I'm working on decoding how to setup printers for the Canon Cat. I've been looking at the setups that are currently in the Cat. I'm looking at one that I suspect has a lot of good information but can't find anything on the web about setting up. The printer is the Canon Laser Beam Printer called LPB8. I'm looking for the setup sequences that are entered to configure this printer. These are typically called escape sequences. Does anyone have a manual for one of these that shows the escape sequences? Thanks Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Type your favorite song.? Get a customized station.? Try MSN Radio powered by Pandora. http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 30 13:29:17 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 11:29:17 -0800 Subject: Compaq floppy drive compatibility In-Reply-To: <20061230191154.74981.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061230191154.74981.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45964D8D.29809.DEE20E4@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Dec 2006 at 11:11, Chris M wrote: > are we talking about the same puters lol? I was wondering the same thing, myself. The Plus is the hard disk successor to the original Portable. Both have ISA buses and fairly normal PC peripherals (and lousy keyboards, IMOHO). http://utopia.knoware.nl/users/stuurmn/complus.htm At worst, adding a new card may require that you use a half-length card; the card cage for both the plus and portable can accommodate rather tall 8-bit ISA cards. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 30 13:35:55 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 11:35:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Compaq floppy drive compatibility Message-ID: <212979.50754.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> I had heard somewhere that Compaq used non standard drives, but perhaps that applies to different (newer?) models. --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > On 30 Dec 2006 at 11:11, Chris M wrote: > > > are we talking about the same puters lol? > > I was wondering the same thing, myself. The Plus is the hard disk > successor to the original Portable. Both have ISA buses and fairly > normal PC peripherals (and lousy keyboards, IMOHO). > > http://utopia.knoware.nl/users/stuurmn/complus.htm > > At worst, adding a new card may require that you use a half-length > card; the card cage for both the plus and portable can accommodate > rather tall 8-bit ISA cards. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 30 13:54:57 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 11:54:57 -0800 Subject: Compaq floppy drive compatibility In-Reply-To: <212979.50754.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <212979.50754.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45965391.15488.E059FA2@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Dec 2006 at 11:35, Chris M wrote: > I had heard somewhere that Compaq used non standard > drives, but perhaps that applies to different (newer?) > models. Maybe in some of the notebook/laptops, but I'm not even sure of that. In 1983/84, however, things were pretty straightforward, other than slight differences in the ISA bus (didn't matter for most things, but occasionally there was a "gotcha"). I found that the model name "portable" was much like the Kaypro situation--akin to putting a handle on a refrigerator and calling it "portable"... :) Cheers, Chuck From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Dec 30 14:09:05 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 12:09:05 -0800 Subject: Multinet vs TCPware Message-ID: <5777b9c0582626809d26a7eeb1680b93@valleyimplants.com> Been looking at Process Software's stuff- for people who have worked with MultiNet and TCPware, what's the difference? Process doesn't seem to have a comparison between the two, only comparing with UCX. Which is easier for a newcomer to VMS to configure? I know that the issue is with TCP/IP v5.0 on the VAX since the same problems do not occur with an Alpha running VMS v7.3-1-TCP/IP v5.3. The network bogs down with many surplus packets as soon as a telnet connection is opened (doesn't happen with rsh/rlogin). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 30 17:07:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 23:07:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: conon Laser Beam Printer LBP8 In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Dec 30, 6 11:19:16 am Message-ID: > > Hi > I'm working on decoding how to setup printers for > the Canon Cat. I've been looking at the setups that > are currently in the Cat. I'm looking at one that I > suspect has a lot of good information but can't find > anything on the web about setting up. > The printer is the Canon Laser Beam Printer called LPB8. There were at least 2 LBP8s -- the LBP8-A1 and the LBP8-A2. They differed in the amount of intneral RAM (and maybe in the ROMs, I don't know). The LPB8 is a CX-engined printer, it's physically identical to the original HP Laserjet -- even the formatter PCB is the same (and designed by Canon) in both machines. What's different are the ROMs, so the control codes/escape sequences are different. Years ago I was given a broken LBP8-A1 -- the formatter board had a dead PAL on it. As I think I mentioned before, I removed the formatter board and converted it into a CX-VDO printer (no intenral formatter, the interface connector goes straight to the print engine) for my PERQ. I still have the ROMs from the formatter board if you're crazy enough to want to covnert an HP Laserjet (origianl version) into an LBP8-A1. I _may_ also have a user manual for the LBP8-A1. I can look. It might give the esxape sequences. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 30 17:03:18 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 23:03:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Compaq floppy drive compatibility In-Reply-To: <20061230191154.74981.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Dec 30, 6 11:11:54 am Message-ID: > > are we talking about the same puters lol? Ouch!. No we're not... I read 'Portable' and 'Plus' in the message text and assumed we were talking about Apple Macs. What I said applies to those machines... -tony From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Dec 30 17:57:10 2006 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 15:57:10 -0800 Subject: (found on another list) (Free) 4Ds/Challenge XL Message-ID: <42e1f4f0de81b8a29448b5a8a111a725@valleyimplants.com> Found this on another list- thought someone might be interested. Hi all, I have a few older Silicon Graphics systems up for grabs if anyone is interested. There's three 4D Predator racks, a deskside 4D/70GT and a Challenge XL. All the machines are complete except for the Challenge which is missing the CPU and memory boards. Except for that everything is there. They also come with a few boxes of parts, cables, keyboards and such. A 17" SGI monitor is also part of the lot. Pictures here: http://web.newsguy.com/AlexPhotos/sgi.html Everything is free if you take them as is. If you only want boards or other parts, I'll charge a small fee for the packaging material and for my time. The machines are located in Montreal, Canada. Thanks. Alex. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 30 18:20:39 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 16:20:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Compaq floppy drive compatibility Message-ID: <485234.18769.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> might be time to polish the ol bifocals mon frere LOL LOL --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > are we talking about the same puters lol? > > Ouch!. No we're not... > > I read 'Portable' and 'Plus' in the message text and assumed we were > talking about Apple Macs. What I said applies to those machines... > > -tony __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Dec 30 19:37:33 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 22:37:33 -0300 Subject: conon Laser Beam Printer LBP8 References: Message-ID: <003c01c72c7c$43f5af50$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Years ago I was given a broken LBP8-A1 -- the formatter board had a dead > PAL on it. As I think I mentioned before, I removed the formatter board > and converted it into a CX-VDO printer (no intenral formatter, the > interface connector goes straight to the print engine) for my PERQ. I > still have the ROMs from the formatter board if you're crazy enough to > want to covnert an HP Laserjet (origianl version) into an LBP8-A1. Tony, did you wrote something about that in a site before? Got the adress on hand? From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Dec 30 18:46:14 2006 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:46:14 -0600 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20061230103859.0248e118@pop.east.cox.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20061230103859.0248e118@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <45970856.4000608@oldskool.org> John K. wrote: > Look for an Apple II with the "Alpha Centauri" (or did they call it > "Alpha Syntauri"?) package. It was fantastic! It used two cards from a Then you are going to *love* this: http://www.archive.org/details/Computer1984 The creators of the Alpha Syntauri demo it on television. It's a little heavy on the future-speak ("we see this as a gateway into floppy disks filled with music being sold in retail stores, much like you would buy records" and marketing-speak, but you do get to see and hear it in action. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 30 18:56:12 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 00:56:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: conon Laser Beam Printer LBP8 In-Reply-To: <003c01c72c7c$43f5af50$f0fea8c0@alpha> from "Alexandre Souza" at Dec 30, 6 10:37:33 pm Message-ID: > > > Years ago I was given a broken LBP8-A1 -- the formatter board had a dead > > PAL on it. As I think I mentioned before, I removed the formatter board > > and converted it into a CX-VDO printer (no intenral formatter, the > > interface connector goes straight to the print engine) for my PERQ. I > > still have the ROMs from the formatter board if you're crazy enough to > > want to covnert an HP Laserjet (origianl version) into an LBP8-A1. > > Tony, did you wrote something about that in a site before? Got the > adress on hand? I am almost sure I mentioned it on this list in the last year. I would guess serrchingthe archives for 'PERQ' would find it. I am not sure what you want to know. I can talk you through taking the CX engine apart, and what the 'DC contorller board' -- the print engine cotnroller with a 7811 microcontroller and a gate array that controls the laser intensity does. And how the various PSUs, laser scanner, etc work. When I was doing this conversion, you seem I had the printer totally apart. And I mean 'totally' I completely stripped down the optical parts and had a pile of mirrors and cylindrical lenses at one point (yes, I did get it all aligned again) As regards the actual conversion, the important bit is trivial. A CX-VDO has a DC37-S interface connector. It's a straight-through ribbon cable from that to the first 32 pins of the 34 pin header on the DC controller board. The last 2 pins on that connector go to an earth tag on the connector bracket. I didn't bother with (and never found out the ocnnections of) the mini-DIN connectoer for some kind of exeternal paper feed. The PERQ never supported that, I don't have one, etc. There's a 6 pin header on the DC controller board that's unused in the LBP8. It carres the status LED signals (ready, paper out, etc). I dismantled the original control panel from the LBP8 (and added a 7 segment display, switches, etc to the junk box), and used 5 of its LEDs and the associated resistors on the origianl PCB. I made a new trim panel for it (not the right layout for an CX-VDO, since I used the old PCB and plastic housing from the LBP8, but that doesn't matter) and soldred a length of ribbon cable to the PCB which ends in a sockt to fit said header. Let me know what you're trying to do and I can probably help. -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Dec 30 20:39:35 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 23:39:35 -0300 Subject: conon Laser Beam Printer LBP8 References: Message-ID: <005701c72c84$f5c62fe0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > I am not sure what you want to know. I can talk you through taking the CX > engine apart, and what the 'DC contorller board' -- the print engine > cotnroller with a 7811 microcontroller and a gate array that controls the > laser intensity does. And how the various PSUs, laser scanner, etc work. Sorry for bothering you, I was just out of curiosity, I remember having read this great work and wanted to remember. Great job you did, congratulations! ;o) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Dec 30 22:57:35 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 20:57:35 -0800 Subject: Multinet vs TCPware In-Reply-To: <5777b9c0582626809d26a7eeb1680b93@valleyimplants.com> References: <5777b9c0582626809d26a7eeb1680b93@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: At 12:09 PM -0800 12/30/06, Scott Quinn wrote: >Been looking at Process Software's stuff- for people who have worked >with MultiNet and TCPware, what's the difference? Process doesn't >seem to have a comparison between the two, only comparing with UCX. >Which is easier for a newcomer to VMS to configure? > >I know that the issue is with TCP/IP v5.0 on the VAX since the same >problems do not occur with an Alpha running VMS v7.3-1-TCP/IP v5.3. >The network bogs down with many surplus packets as soon as a telnet >connection is opened (doesn't happen with rsh/rlogin). I've only run Multinet on my VAXstation 4000/vlc, and I only run it there as I'm using it to route DECnet over a TCP/IP link. I'm doing this on a VAX as the VAX is also a DECnet Area Router. I don't remember any problems configuring Multinet, as I recall it wsa pretty easy to configure, but then I only have one or two services enabled on it. I've actually been considering bringing up my spare XP1000 up running Multinet, in order to give it a better try. If I like it well enough I'll switch my primary system over to it eventually. I've never been totally happy with TCPIP (currently running "HP TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS Alpha Version V5.4 - ECO 6"). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Dec 31 00:38:06 2006 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 00:38:06 -0600 Subject: SCSI CD cabinets In-Reply-To: <459654D7.2070409@yahoo.co.uk> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229184648.0e6e67e0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20061229184648.0e6e67e0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061231003741.0be38e00@localhost> At 06:00 AM 12/30/2006 -0600, you wrote: >Tom Peters wrote: >>Oh my, what am I going to do with these MDI SCSI CD boxes? I have 3 or 4 >>of them, each one containing seven CD-ROM drives, a power supply, and >>some kind of logical unit controller, so all 7 drives appear a LUNs under >>one SCSI address. > >Replace the CD drives with DVD ones and run your own 'net-based movie theatre? > >Or: stack them all up and write a program to eject and load the trays >according to a timer - the effect would probably be rather captivating as >some sort of "drive tray sine wave" traveled up the stack... > >OK, so I can't think of any *good* ideas. ;) But they were amusing. Well, sort of amusing. [Pop Culture] You must find the Jade Monkey before the next full moon. --Monty Burns, The Simpsons --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 31 01:32:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 23:32:45 -0800 Subject: SCSI CD cabinets In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061231003741.0be38e00@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229184648.0e6e67e0@localhost>, <459654D7.2070409@yahoo.co.uk>, <5.1.0.14.2.20061231003741.0be38e00@localhost> Message-ID: <4596F71D.21764.1EC435E@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Dec 2006 at 0:38, Tom Peters wrote: > But they were amusing. Well, sort of amusing. If I had a nice cabinet like that, I'd fill it with one each of various types of floppy drives (except for 8") and a switch. Let's see -- one 1.44, one 720K, 1 1.3MB for 3.5", one 100 tpi 5.25", 1 360K, 1 1.2MB. Given that the 100 tpi is a full height unit, that's 7 half-height drives. Would take a bit of hacking, but it should work. Right now, except for the FH drives, I use IBM PS/2 Diskette Adapter/A cabinets, one for each drive. I'm just sorry that I gave away my old 7 CD unit. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 31 02:14:27 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 00:14:27 -0800 Subject: Cray-I PCB for display at Goodwill Message-ID: <459700E3.20762.212711C@cclist.sydex.com> Sometimes Goodwill has interesting stuff. Here's one you don't see every day: http://shopgoodwill.com/viewItem.asp?ItemID=2423761 Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 02:35:20 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 03:35:20 -0500 Subject: Thicknet In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229191320.0da84568@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229191320.0da84568@localhost> Message-ID: On 12/29/06, Tom Peters wrote: > Anyone have an urgent need for 300' of thicknet? Never been used, approx > 117m (according to the writing on the spool) with one cut end and one > N-connector on the other end. Hmm... I don't have an _urgent_ need, nor do I need 100m of cable, but I have been kinda, sorta keeping an eye out for a couple dozen meters of thicknet. I have a few vampire taps, a couple of intrusive taps, and just this past (Austral) Winter, found a manual cable penetration tool and some tap pins NIB when cleaning out the Science building at the South Pole. I have a number of machines (VAXen, mostly) that are from the pre-thinnet era that I'd like to stick on a thicknet segment for, as they say, "hysterical rasins". I could probably get away with a DEC AUI "hub" (DELNI?) rather than drill or cut the cable for traditional thicknet, but I think it'd be cool to have up to 1/2 dozen machine on "etherhose". > It's 50ohm cable right? Maybe I can use it for amateur radio, if I keep it > indoors away from the UV. It's 50 ohm, just like thinnet (which uses different diameter cable and different intrusive connectors, but the same value for termination as thicknet). I don't know for a fact that anyone ever directly coupled a thicknet segment to a thinnet segment, but I _think_ it should work with an N-to-BNC adapter, same impedance and all. I'd expect it would work better with conservative node placement and overall cable length, but for setups that avoid boundary and limit conditions (i.e. - 95% of max thicknet length and the like), I'd go in expecting it all to work. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 02:45:14 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 03:45:14 -0500 Subject: SCSI CD cabinets In-Reply-To: <4596F71D.21764.1EC435E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229184648.0e6e67e0@localhost> <459654D7.2070409@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20061231003741.0be38e00@localhost> <4596F71D.21764.1EC435E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/31/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm just sorry that I gave away my old 7 CD unit. I have something like that I was thinking about digging out... it's a table-top unit, with a 2X drive and a 7-disc internal changer. I was contemplating seeing if I could replace the transport with a SCSI DVD-ROM unit just for fun, as 7 CDs isn't all that interesting. As for the OP's question, if _I_ had a 7 *transport* box, I'd consider replacing most or all of the transports with SCSI DVD-ROMs for a decent amount of archival storage readback. I could back interesting things up to DVD-R on a single writer, then keep the most important stuff available for readback. It's not as much storage as even a moderate-sized RAID array, but it isn't likely to suffer from headcrashes, etc. -ethan From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Dec 31 02:58:40 2006 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 00:58:40 -0800 Subject: Thicknet In-Reply-To: (Ethan Dicks's message of "Sun\, 31 Dec 2006 03\:35\:20 -0500") References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229191320.0da84568@localhost> Message-ID: <200612310858.kBV8we8G090921@lots.reanimators.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > It's 50 ohm, just like thinnet (which uses different diameter cable > and different intrusive connectors, but the same value for termination > as thicknet). I don't know for a fact that anyone ever directly > coupled a thicknet segment to a thinnet segment, but I _think_ it > should work with an N-to-BNC adapter, same impedance and all. Yes, it does. Been there, done that, when the thinnet multiport repeater failed. Re-strung cables to make one long thinnet segment around the room and then put the N-to-BNC adapter between it and the thicknet segment. -Frank McConnell From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Dec 30 20:42:02 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 02:42:02 +0000 Subject: Advice for tape drive repair / maintenance In-Reply-To: <4595349B.24749.9A4AFAA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45944BDD.20379.6178867@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 28, 6 10:57:33 pm, <4595349B.24749.9A4AFAA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4597237A.80508@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 Dec 2006 at 22:20, Tony Duell wrote: > >> What the heck is Sabbath Mode? > > As near as I can figure, it's a way to defeat the automatic-off > feature (about 12 hours) for many modern ovens. Orthodox Jews are > not allowed to power an appliance on during the Sabbath (from sunset Much the same as Free Presbyterians, the Christian equivalent of the Taliban. Gordon From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Dec 31 04:04:19 2006 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 11:04:19 +0100 Subject: Thicknet In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229191320.0da84568@localhost> Message-ID: <20061231110419.4bda1e2c@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 03:35:20 -0500 "Ethan Dicks" wrote: > I don't know for a fact that anyone ever directly > coupled a thicknet segment to a thinnet segment, but I _think_ it > should work with an N-to-BNC adapter, same impedance and all. I did it and it just worked. Also I have thicknet transceivers with different, interchangeable taps. Vampire taps and taps with two N connectors for thicknet and taps with two BNC connectors for thinnet. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 31 05:03:12 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 05:03:12 -0600 Subject: SCSI CD cabinets In-Reply-To: <4596F71D.21764.1EC435E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229184648.0e6e67e0@localhost>, <459654D7.2070409@yahoo.co.uk>, <5.1.0.14.2.20061231003741.0be38e00@localhost> <4596F71D.21764.1EC435E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <459798F0.2000004@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 Dec 2006 at 0:38, Tom Peters wrote: > >> But they were amusing. Well, sort of amusing. > > If I had a nice cabinet like that, I'd fill it with one each of > various types of floppy drives (except for 8") and a switch. > Let's see -- one 1.44, one 720K, 1 1.3MB for 3.5", one 100 tpi 5.25", > 1 360K, 1 1.2MB. Given that the 100 tpi is a full height unit, > that's 7 half-height drives. Would take a bit of hacking, but it > should work. Depending on the overall case width, I suppose you might just get two 8" drives mounted vertically. (I'm not sure of the height of an 8" drive - two of them would be more than 5.25", but might be within the limits of a system case shell, which normally has one or two inches extra width... Seems a shame to rip out all the SCSI logic, though. Actually, perhaps a data recovery [1] box for magtape / optical media / others might be nicer: 60MB QIC, 150MB QIC, 5.25" MO, ZIP etc. as all of those come in SCSI flavours anyway. Keep a CD-ROM and DVD-ROM drive in there too, and leave the floppy drives for a scrap PC case... [1] well, not really 'recovery' at that level. More 'access', I suppose. > Right now, except for the FH drives, I use IBM PS/2 Diskette > Adapter/A cabinets, one for each drive. I tend to need to plug something in at the moment, but I've got an old PC cased lined up to convert to a box 'o floppy drives. For other types of devices I tend to favour Sun's more recent external CDROM drive cases (they'll take a narrow 5.25" drive, but have wide in/out connectors on the back). > I'm just sorry that I gave away my old 7 CD unit. I never did like them, not for home use. It was too rare to need access to more than one disc at once anyway, and remembering which discs were in which drives was a nightmare. cheers Jules From grant at stockly.com Sun Dec 31 06:31:05 2006 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 03:31:05 -0900 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061231032842.039f3f08@pop.1and1.com> This is my attempt at an "art" x-ray. This image includes the entire range of densities. If I were to penetrate the motor I would blow through the plastic. This is a high resolution x-ray. Zoom into the front label and see if you can read the embossed name plates... What COLOR is this actual drive? The answer is in there! ; ) http://www.stockly.com/images2/061231-Disk_II_Drive-120kv6ma15msDG35SFD.jpg This shot was taken with the drive elevated at an angle by foam so that you would get a 3d feeling and not a flat picture. Let me know if its cool. I may x-ray an entire computer next... : ) Grant From ikvsabre at comcast.net Sun Dec 31 09:06:17 2006 From: ikvsabre at comcast.net (Joe Stevenson) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 10:06:17 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200612311006170734.07FD2FA0@smtp.comcast.net> I know this is OLD, but I haven't had a chance to read my cctalk e-mail for a few weeks... Murray is an out and out CRANK, and a loser. Your site makes NO value judgement of the Apple I or even Apple II, does not compare it to any other machine, nor do you extoll the virtues of Apple. Neither do you degrade his favored KIM-1. So, it is wholly impossible that you are being unfair, or spreading "Apple propaganda". Did this CRACKPOT even tell you what text he would have preferred? I applaud you on your desire to be accurate. It is unfortunate that Mr. Balascak seems to have lost touch with reality. Rather that converse with him, you might suggest he find a girlfriend/boyfriend/whatever, and stop harrassing people with his misguided angst. If he thinks it is so important, he can start his own KIM-1 fansite, where he can extoll the virtues of the KIM-1, and discuss the global plot by the pro-Apple anti-KIM-1 lesbian nazi eskimo communists front to discredit his beloved machine. Also direct him to distributors where he can buy heavy duty tin foil in bulk, suitable more making those protective hats for keeping the spy rays out of his brain. Joe Stevenson On 12/8/2006 at 2:35 PM Dave Dunfield wrote: *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** >Hi guys, > >I've been having an esclating correspondance with a chap named >"Murray Balascak" (anyone know him?) - who contacted me regarding >his displeasure with my mention of the Apple-1 on the Apple-II page of >my site - here is what I have posted as part of my introdiuction to the >Apple-II: > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >In 1976, Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs formed the Apple Computer Company, >and built a home computer they called the "Apple 1" in their garage. >Although it >required the users to provide their own cabinet, power supply, keyboard and >video monitor, it didn't require a separate terminal, and a simple BASIC >interpreter >could be loaded with an optional cassette interface. Although it required >a fairly >technical user to complete the system and make it usable, about 200 Apple >1s >were sold in the first year. > >The following year (1977), Apple refined the design, providing a keyboard >and >power supply and packaging the machine in a attractive low-profile plastic >cabinet >with simple connections for the video monitor and tape storage. Now - >anyone >who could plug two connectors together could use this computer. The >result, called >"Apple 2" was one of the most successful early personal computers, and sold >many thousands of units. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >In Mr. Balascaks first correspondance, he stated that the KIM-1 was a far >better machine than the Apple-1, asked if I had succumbed to "the >relentless >revisionism of the brand zealots?", and demanded that I "correct the above >reference to show the machine's irrelevance". > >In his second correspondance, he stated that I am spreading "Apple >propaganda", again stated that the KIM-1 was better, sold in higher >quantities and cheaper (I still do not know what the KIM-1 has to do >with an Apple-II page). > >In his third correspondance he acqused me of "posting lies and being >worse than useless by corrupting history into fiction". Again, he stated >that the KIM-1 was a far better machine and much cheaper. > >In his last email, he indicated that he believes I am responsable for the >degradation of the internet and the reason that it cannot be trusted as >a source of information. > >I don't know where this is coming from - I believe my reference to the >Apple-1 is accurate considering it's brevity - Apple was formed in 1976 >and operated out of Jobs basement. The Apple-1 was sold through the >homebrew computer club as well as a few of stores, and although I do >not have confirmed numbers of sales, I believe it was around 200 >units. > >It was never my intention to make a page about the Apple-1 (I don't have >one, and I only feature systems on my site which are in my collection)... >I believe at some point someone asked why I didn't mention the Apple-1 >so I added this one paragraph as part of the Apple-II history. I have no >other references to the Apple-1 (at least that I can recall) on my site. > >In all of my responses to him, I indicated that I am unwilling to change >the site based on the hearsay of one individual, especially when that >person has an apparent (in my opinion based on correspondance >received) bias for or against the material being questioned, however I >would be happy to revise the site in response to any documented >facts/evidence he can provide that the material I have is incorrect. > >All I have received in return is statements about how much better the >KIM-1 was (I make no such comparisons on my site), how expensive >the Apple-1 and Apple-II were (I post no such prices on my site), and >rants about a website that apparently lists Woz as the "inventor of >the single-board computer" (I make no such claim on my site). > >I should probably just ignore it - but the fact that I have been accused >of lying and deliberatly posting misinformation is disturbing to me ... >So - I throw it to the list - As a background statement showing that >Apple existed and sold a predecessor in small volumes for a time >before the Apple-II ... Is my posting above non-factual? If so, in >what way, and can you provide supporting documentation? > >Please keep in mind that I do not wish to post a page about the Apple-1, >only a single paragraph as a way of introducing the guys who built >the Apple-2. > >Regards, >Dave > >-- >dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** From mike at ambientdesign.com Sun Dec 31 06:39:58 2006 From: mike at ambientdesign.com (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 01:39:58 +1300 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray References: <5.2.1.1.0.20061231032842.039f3f08@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <009501c72cd8$c8120250$3c00a8c0@fluke> Heh, it's interesting to see a Apple II drive like this, it's been ages since I've worked on one! And it's black! By the time this reaches the list I bet everyone else has already leapt on that one... m. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Stockly" To: Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 1:31 AM Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray > This is my attempt at an "art" x-ray. > > This image includes the entire range of densities. If I were to penetrate > the motor I would blow through the plastic. > > This is a high resolution x-ray. Zoom into the front label and see if you > can read the embossed name plates... What COLOR is this actual drive? The > answer is in there! ; ) > > http://www.stockly.com/images2/061231-Disk_II_Drive-120kv6ma15msDG35SFD.jpg > > This shot was taken with the drive elevated at an angle by foam so that you > would get a 3d feeling and not a flat picture. > > Let me know if its cool. I may x-ray an entire computer next... : ) > > Grant > From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Dec 31 08:19:01 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 14:19:01 +0000 Subject: Computer Music In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20061230103859.0248e118@pop.east.cox.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20061230103859.0248e118@pop.east.cox.net> Message-ID: <4597C6D5.8020108@gjcp.net> John K. wrote: > Hi Will, > > Look for an Apple II with the "Alpha Centauri" (or did they call it Ooooh, that reminds me - there was the Greengate DS3, as used by the band Mainframe. That was driven by an Apple II if I remember correctly. Gordon From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Dec 31 11:53:55 2006 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 11:53:55 -0600 Subject: Cray-I PCB for display at Goodwill References: <459700E3.20762.212711C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <003901c72d04$b07d4fb0$04406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 2:14 AM Subject: Cray-I PCB for display at Goodwill > Sometimes Goodwill has interesting stuff. Here's one you don't see > every day: > > http://shopgoodwill.com/viewItem.asp?ItemID=2423761 > > Cheers, > Chuck > Thanks for the heads up and I bided on the item for the museum and it's at $21 right now. John From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 12:06:00 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:06:00 -0500 Subject: Cray-I PCB for display at Goodwill In-Reply-To: <003901c72d04$b07d4fb0$04406b43@66067007> References: <459700E3.20762.212711C@cclist.sydex.com> <003901c72d04$b07d4fb0$04406b43@66067007> Message-ID: On 12/31/06, Keys wrote: > > > $21 right now. > John > > I remember that several years ago, those were listed on ebay regularly for several hundred dollors a piece. It seemed somebody made it a business to frame cray boards at that time. vax, 9000 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 31 12:38:15 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 10:38:15 -0800 Subject: Network question Message-ID: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> I'm beginning to wonder if it's time I upgraded my home network. The NICs on most of the machines are 100BaseT, with the odd old machine sporting a 10BaseT. But it's the hubs I wonder about--two old National Semi 6-port Datamover 10BaseT units coupled together with a 10Base2 (coax) link. It's that coax that I dread replacing--it goes between floors and snaking it through the walls was a real chore. My DSL speed is 1.6Mbps, so I'm thinking that there's little reason to upgrade the setup. Am I thinking correctly or am I likely to see an improvement in internet access speed if I upgrade? Cheers, Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Dec 31 13:12:32 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:12:32 -0600 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45980BA0.80605@brutman.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm beginning to wonder if it's time I upgraded my home network. The > NICs on most of the machines are 100BaseT, with the odd old machine > sporting a 10BaseT. But it's the hubs I wonder about--two old > National Semi 6-port Datamover 10BaseT units coupled together with a > 10Base2 (coax) link. It's that coax that I dread replacing--it goes > between floors and snaking it through the walls was a real chore. > > My DSL speed is 1.6Mbps, so I'm thinking that there's little reason > to upgrade the setup. Am I thinking correctly or am I likely to see > an improvement in internet access speed if I upgrade? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > I think you answered your own question. Access to the outside world will not improve. Speeds between machines will improve if you have switches and appropriate cabling. I run 100Mbps for the more modern machines, all one a switch, and I daisy chain an old hub (100 or 10, can't remember) for the slower machines that only do 10Mbps. Even with 5Mbps cable modem, my slowest connection inside is still faster that my connection to the outside world. Mike From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 31 13:19:12 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:19:12 -0700 Subject: RoHS question In-Reply-To: <004501c71f80$4f31b0c0$6500a8c0@barry> References: <004501c71f80$4f31b0c0$6500a8c0@barry> Message-ID: <45980D30.902@jetnet.ab.ca> Barry Watzman wrote: This is a little late since I have been off line for a while. > Almost all new equipment has to comply with "RoHS" (Reduction of Hazardous > Substances) requirements, which among other things means it's made with > lead-free solder. Enforcement is stronger in Europe than in the US, but in > any case industry is cleary moving in that direction even when and where not > absolutely required by law. > > Question: If one is repairing RoHS compliant equipment, with respect to > functionality only is there a problem with using conventional tin/lead > solder? I'm not asking if it's legal or "environmentally friendly", I'm > asking if mixing the lead free solder and conventional tin/lead solder will > cause functional problems (for example, any kind of problems similar to > those which we used to see when someone repaired electronic equipment using > plumbing acid flux solder). From all that I have read it is only NEW products that are RoHS complant. Classic computers are NOT new products. :) From what I have done with soldering with the new solder is you need a higher temp soldering temp 800F+ since a 700F tip does not handle large joints that I used. This was however with a rather coarse solder ment for audio work - Cardas solder. http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=oem&content_id=19&pagestring=Solder+and+Flux > Also, if one wants to acquire and use RoHS compliant solder, are there any > changes that someone accustomed to conventional tin/lead solder needs to > make to their soldering technique? And I guess I should also ask the > reverse question from the paragraph above: Are there any issues in using > lead-free RoHS compliant solders on equipment originally built from tin/lead > solder? > Are there any other implications of RoHS that a casual classic computer and > electronics enthusiast should know about, in either direction? > > > > . > From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 31 13:25:01 2006 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 11:25:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cray-I PCB for display at Goodwill In-Reply-To: <200612311802.kBVI0Ovx055050@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <807470.17948.qm@web50513.mail.yahoo.com> > > Sometimes Goodwill has interesting stuff. Here's one you don't see > > every day: > > > > http://shopgoodwill.com/viewItem.asp?ItemID=2423761 > > > > Cheers, > > Chuck > > > Thanks for the heads up and I bided on the item for the museum and it's at > $21 right now. > John These are sold by the National Atomic Museum on Kirtland AFB in Albuquerque, NM: http://www.atomicmuseum.com/store/ProductItem.cfm?Category=7 I bought mine (016 of 340) about eight years ago for $50 when I visited the museum. I'm amazed they haven't sold all 340 by now. They now sell for $58 new to give you an idea of what your maximum bid should be if you don't just buy a new one from the museum. The one in the auction has been re-framed. I re-framed and re-matted mine but in a much nicer black frame than the one in the auction (frame only cost me $5 on sale at Target due to superficial damage on its BACK side). I, also, made some new labels with far more info about the machine and specific board. ASCI Red, the first tera-ops supercomputer was recently decommissioned at Sandia (on Kirtland): http://www.sandia.gov/ASCI/Red/ I emailed the National Atomic Museum to suggest that they get some boards and frame them because of the significance of the tera-ops barrier. I received no response. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Dec 31 13:32:34 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 14:32:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Thicknet In-Reply-To: <20061231110419.4bda1e2c@SirToby.dinner41.local> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229191320.0da84568@localhost> <20061231110419.4bda1e2c@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: <200612311932.OAA04433@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I don't know for a fact that anyone ever directly coupled a thicknet >> segment to a thinnet segment, > I did it and it just worked. Same here. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 31 13:41:35 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 11:41:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCSI CD cabinets In-Reply-To: <4596F71D.21764.1EC435E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229184648.0e6e67e0@localhost>, <459654D7.2070409@yahoo.co.uk>, <5.1.0.14.2.20061231003741.0be38e00@localhost> <4596F71D.21764.1EC435E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061231112431.C2519@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 30 Dec 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If I had a nice cabinet like that, I'd fill it with one each of > various types of floppy drives (except for 8") and a switch. > Let's see -- one 1.44, one 720K, 1 1.3MB for 3.5", one 100 tpi 5.25", > 1 360K, 1 1.2MB. Given that the 100 tpi is a full height unit, > that's 7 half-height drives. Would take a bit of hacking, but it > should work. You should put a switch on the front panel to control the speed jumper to combine the 1.4 and 1.3 into one drive. And another front panel switch to switch the 1.2 between fixed 300RPM and 300/360. And another switch to interrupt the index pulse, to be able to use a 765 to read some WD stuff that starts too early in the track. A master, and individual switches to control write-protect (SPDT/center off) to force WP ON/OFF/"Let the drive control it". Virus false positives taught me to distribute software on no-notch disks. But, what about a 67.5TPI 3.5" (Epson PX-8), 3", 3.25", floptical, LS120, ZIP, ORB, removable cartridge hard drives, etc.? And an AMLYN drive! (full height, with 5 disk cartridge) Well, the less commonly used ones could be in a second and third housing behind the one for active use. Or, the various drives smaller than 5.25" could be mounted on hard-drive removable sleds, and substituted as needed. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 31 13:46:38 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 11:46:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCSI CD cabinets In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229184648.0e6e67e0@localhost> <459654D7.2070409@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20061231003741.0be38e00@localhost> <4596F71D.21764.1EC435E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061231114306.L2519@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 31 Dec 2006, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have something like that I was thinking about digging out... it's a > table-top unit, with a 2X drive and a 7-disc internal changer. I was > contemplating seeing if I could replace the transport with a SCSI > DVD-ROM unit just for fun, as 7 CDs isn't all that interesting. I still want a Qubik (sp?). Designed by Keith Hensen, it had 4 SCSI drives, and a 100 disc "carousel" tray with RS232 control of disc mounting and unmounting of the four drives. Stackable, if 4 drives 100 discs isn't adequate, or pop out the tray and drop another one in. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 31 14:01:43 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:01:43 -0700 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45981727.2040705@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > Is it even possible to build with RTL parts anymore? > > I guess you'd have to do it PDP-8 style with discrete transistors? Well I don't like the FPGA idea -- TTL/DTL/RTL logic is still visible logic. What good is FPGA's if the windows gets updated and the FPGA software is not supported. PALS and GALS I could see used. Also the orginal logic was FLAT PACK so if I remember right it could get very dense. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 31 14:10:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:10:56 -0800 Subject: SCSI CD cabinets In-Reply-To: <4596F71D.21764.1EC435E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229184648.0e6e67e0@localhost>, <5.1.0.14.2.20061231003741.0be38e00@localhost>, <4596F71D.21764.1EC435E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4597A8D0.2103.4A263F0@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Dec 2006 at 11:41, Fred Cisin wrote: > But, what about a 67.5TPI 3.5" (Epson PX-8), 3", 3.25", floptical, > LS120, ZIP, ORB, removable cartridge hard drives, etc.? And an AMLYN > drive! (full height, with 5 disk cartridge) Well, the less commonly > used ones could be in a second and third housing behind the one for > active use. Or, the various drives smaller than 5.25" could be mounted > on hard-drive removable sleds, and substituted as needed. You forgot the Drivetech drives. :) You know, I've never had anyone ask about converting one of the Brier flopticals (I've got the drive) or the Drivetech floppies, much less an Amlyn or Exatron stringly floppy. I can only conjecture that the media didn't last very long. I've got a carton of the IBM Diskette Adapter/A boxes, so there's no shortage--and they stack neatly. A power supply for each drive, too. Wonder if there's a T switch for a DC-37 that will switch between 8 drives? I suppose I could adapt a Centronics-type T-switch if I had to... Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 31 14:10:52 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:10:52 -0700 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <458874E8.C423874C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <458874E8.C423874C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4598194C.8060309@jetnet.ab.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Richard wrote: > >>In article <458726D7.17136.1434D6AA at cclist.sydex.com>, >> "Chuck Guzis" writes: >> >> >>>But, given that the original uses RTL and core, what's the point of >>>building one in LSTTL? >> >>Is it even possible to build with RTL parts anymore? >> > > > Well I have a dozen or so, maybe if everybody tosses in a few.. :) > > There are some pages on the mentioned site giving the specs for the/an IC type > the AGC was based on. It's not really said directly, but it kind of implies > that there was only one type of IC used in the AGC: an RTL dual 3-input NOR in > a 10-pin flat-pak. > > Let's see... invert the logic to make use of NANDs, an earlier poster > mentioned 40 tubes of 24 5400's, that's 40*24*4=3840 2-in NANDs... I always > kind of liked the idea of making an entire processor out of just one basic > gate/IC type. I guess one tube would make a bit slice logic block. While I have been thinking of that and the 3840 sockets have been kind of holding me back! I have been thinking of 3 gate types. 3-input open collector nands, 1 input nand ( inverter ) and 2 input nand open collector buffers. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 31 14:13:03 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:13:03 -0700 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <4588788F.7030201@shiresoft.com> References: <200612192223.kBJMNlDS050166@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200612192309.SAA23983@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4588788F.7030201@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <459819CF.60508@jetnet.ab.ca> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > ECL is fast because it doesn't put the transistors into saturation or > cutoff (ie it's operating in the "linear region"). This means that no > time is required to move "large" amounts of charge (electrons) into or > out of the base of the transistor which is necessary to "saturate" the > transistor. This is why it is so power hungry...it's operating in the > "linear" region so current is always flowing through it and it's acting > as a resistor (ie causing a voltage drop across the part). But where can you get them cheap? $10 a chip is not cheap. Note at one time I read about ECL PALS. That sounds nice if you could still get that. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 31 14:16:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:16:19 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <45981727.2040705@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <45981727.2040705@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4597AA13.217.4A75473@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Dec 2006 at 13:01, woodelf wrote: > Also the orginal logic was FLAT PACK so if I remember right it could > get very dense. IIRC, the basic logic block was a 3-input NOR. You could stay with RTL and simply implement it in SMT discretes, most likely with no increase in real estate--lots of little bitty PCBs in place in the flatpacks. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 31 14:16:57 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:16:57 -0700 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036656@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036656@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: <45981AB9.2020504@jetnet.ab.ca> Billy Pettit wrote: > But then he always did like to minimalize. The 6600, his first big iron, > used one transistor type tied together in different ways to make gates, flip > flops and timing circuits. He used circles and squares to denote gates - > but whther they were And or Ors depended on what fed them. Ah, twas fun to > work with. And I loved the esthetics of the logic diagrams. All those > little squares and circles had a kind of magic to them. I am not sure what the computer was but it was the first he one he built. It was all using the same surplus transistor that he got very cheap. The second computer was a problem since they had no more surplus transistors to sell him. > Billy > > . > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 31 14:49:13 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:49:13 -0700 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <4597AA13.217.4A75473@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <45981727.2040705@jetnet.ab.ca> <4597AA13.217.4A75473@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45982249.7030506@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > IIRC, the basic logic block was a 3-input NOR. You could stay with > RTL and simply implement it in SMT discretes, most likely with no > increase in real estate--lots of little bitty PCBs in place in the > flatpacks. That means I have to buy a toaster-oven to do my PCB's. :) Also I want to go to MARS ... a bigger computer is needed - umm 20 bits??? > . From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 31 14:54:51 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 12:54:51 -0800 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <45980BA0.80605@brutman.com> References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> <45980BA0.80605@brutman.com> Message-ID: At 1:12 PM -0600 12/31/06, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >I run 100Mbps for the more modern machines, all one a switch, and I >daisy chain an old hub (100 or 10, can't remember) for the slower >machines that only do 10Mbps. I do similar, I have a 16-Port 100Base-T switch, that has most things plugged into it, then I have a 8-Port hub with a 10Base2 connection that lets me hook up a tiny thinnet segment (I only need it for my DECserver 90L+ and Amiga 3000). In the near future I'll likely add a small 1000Base-T switch, especially if I can ever find a 1000Base-T card for my VMS Box, or SunBlade 1000. I wish I could find some dirt cheap 1000Mbit Fibre to Copper media converters, Fibre 1000Mbit NIC's are semi-cheap. >Even with 5Mbps cable modem, my slowest connection inside is still >faster that my connection to the outside world. You obviously don't have any really old systems on your network. I'm still at 1.5Mbps, and have systems on my network that can't keep up with that. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pechter at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 14:58:20 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 15:58:20 -0500 Subject: Thicknet In-Reply-To: <200612311932.OAA04433@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061229191320.0da84568@localhost> <20061231110419.4bda1e2c@SirToby.dinner41.local> <200612311932.OAA04433@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: The only trick is the length is restricted to the maximum of the lower rated cable... so you can't go longer than the thinnet max length. Bill On 12/31/06, der Mouse wrote: > > >> I don't know for a fact that anyone ever directly coupled a thicknet > >> segment to a thinnet segment, > > I did it and it just worked. > > Same here. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Dec 31 15:22:28 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:22:28 -0800 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> <45980BA0.80605@brutman.com> Message-ID: <45982A14.5070302@shiresoft.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > > You obviously don't have any really old systems on your network. I'm > still at 1.5Mbps, and have systems on my network that can't keep up > with that. I can attest to that! My 11/70 which is running 10Mbps ethernet can only ftp at ~25KB/s (and that's to a machine that's on the same switch!). -- TTFN - Guy From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Dec 31 15:33:34 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 15:33:34 -0600 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> <45980BA0.80605@brutman.com> Message-ID: <45982CAE.9020109@brutman.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Even with 5Mbps cable modem, my slowest connection inside is still >> faster that my connection to the outside world. > > You obviously don't have any really old systems on your network. I'm > still at 1.5Mbps, and have systems on my network that can't keep up with > that. > > Zane > The context was the networking gear, not the machines. I think my PCjr is fairly slow. In the case of a really old system like that, it doesn't matter what the network is - the network will never be the problem, unless I use bongos as the transport mechanism. Mike From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 31 15:28:17 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 15:28:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: Exatron Stringy Floppy's (was Re: SCSI CD cabinets) Message-ID: <200612312128.kBVLSHW3012940@keith.ezwind.net> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: **>> snip <<** > > You know, I've never had anyone ask about converti ng > one of the Brier > flopticals (I've got the drive) or the Drivetech > floppies, much less > an Amlyn or Exatron stringly floppy. I can only > conjecture that the > media didn't last very long. > **>> snip <<** > Cheers, > Chuck > Yes, you are quite right Chuck. The ESF (Exatron Stringy Floppy) drive, advertised on the back of most of my issues of 80 Microcomputing, didn't last long despite the heavy advertising. As I understand it, the folks at Exatron hoped it would become the new standard for storing data. Unfortunately the 3.5" floppy disk (or one of similar size) was invented around the same time and, obviously, became the new standard. The ESF was about x10 faster than a cassette and the floppy was much more than that (atleast x20?). As I understand it the ESF's broke down after a year or so. The thin layer of stuff (i forget now, some ferrous material) which was coated onto the erm... mylar (?) started flaking off rendering the ESF's useless. I'm sure I read an article on ESF's about 6 months ago... hense why I know a bit about them. It may have been in an issue of 80 Microcomputing. Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 31 15:55:42 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:55:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Network question Message-ID: <20061231215542.64672.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Bongos? Babaloonet? LOL LOL LOL --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> Even with 5Mbps cable modem, my slowest connection inside is still > >> faster that my connection to the outside world. > > > > You obviously don't have any really old systems on your network. I'm > > still at 1.5Mbps, and have systems on my network that can't keep up with > > that. > > > > Zane > > > > > The context was the networking gear, not the machines. I think my PCjr > is fairly slow. > > In the case of a really old system like that, it doesn't matter what the > network is - the network will never be the problem, unless I use bongos > as the transport mechanism. > > > Mike > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 31 16:01:16 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 16:01:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: Exatron Stringy Floppy's (was Re: SCSI CD cabinets) Message-ID: <200612312201.kBVM1FgV014474@keith.ezwind.net> --- aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > **>> snip <<** > > Yes, you are quite right Chuck. > > The ESF (Exatron Stringy Floppy) drive, > advertised on the back of most of my issues > of 80 Microcomputing, didn't last long despite > the heavy advertising. > > As I understand it, the folks at Exatron hoped > it would become the new standard for storing > data. Unfortunately the 3.5" floppy disk (or > one of similar size) was invented around the > same time and, obviously, became the new > standard. > The ESF was about x10 faster than a cassette > and the floppy was much more than that > (atleast x20?). > > As I understand it the ESF's broke down after > a year or so. The thin layer of stuff (i forget > now, some ferrous material) which was coated > onto the erm... mylar (?) started flaking off > rendering the ESF's useless. > > > I'm sure I read an article on ESF's about 6 > months ago... hense why I know a bit about > them. It may have been in an issue of 80 > Microcomputing. > > > Regards, > Andrew D. Burton > aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk > > Yes, I'm replying to my own message! I did a quick search on google and came up with 300 links (searching for "Exatron Stringy Floppy"). Unfortunately, I was unable to confirm what the ESF's were made of. The sources also state different increase read/write rates over cassette drives. Here are some of the better links (including pics of the unit and ESF): http://www.webweavers.co.nz/system-80/hardware_acces sories.htm http://www.digibarn.com/collections/devices/stringy- floppy/index.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stringy_Floppy Regards, Andrew D. Burton aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 31 16:00:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 14:00:46 -0800 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <45982249.7030506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <4597AA13.217.4A75473@cclist.sydex.com>, <45982249.7030506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4597C28E.25598.506F302@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Dec 2006 at 13:49, woodelf wrote: > That means I have to buy a toaster-oven to do my PCB's. :) > Also I want to go to MARS ... a bigger computer is needed - umm 20 bits??? That reminds me; the other day I ran across the datasheet for the NEC uPD7720 DSP (was it the first IC DSP?). 2 instructions--23 bit instruction word length. Data memory was 16 bits. Very strange bird... Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 31 16:16:42 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 22:16:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: conon Laser Beam Printer LBP8 In-Reply-To: <005701c72c84$f5c62fe0$f0fea8c0@alpha> from "Alexandre Souza" at Dec 30, 6 11:39:35 pm Message-ID: > > > I am not sure what you want to know. I can talk you through taking the CX > > engine apart, and what the 'DC contorller board' -- the print engine > > cotnroller with a 7811 microcontroller and a gate array that controls the > > laser intensity does. And how the various PSUs, laser scanner, etc work. > > Sorry for bothering you, I was just out of curiosity, I remember having Tone of voice doesn't come across in e-mail :-(. I can assure you you are not bothering me, and I apologise if that's how my message was taken. What I meant was, even if I say so myself, I could write many pages on the internals of the CX print engine, and I really can't put it all in a single posting to this list. If there;'s something you, or anyone else here, wants to know. I will be happy to provide the information. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 31 16:49:52 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 14:49:52 -0800 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <45982A14.5070302@shiresoft.com> References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com> <45980BA0.80605@brutman.com> <45982A14.5070302@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: At 1:22 PM -0800 12/31/06, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >>You obviously don't have any really old systems on your network. >>I'm still at 1.5Mbps, and have systems on my network that can't >>keep up with that. >I can attest to that! My 11/70 which is running 10Mbps ethernet can >only ftp at ~25KB/s (and that's to a machine that's on the same >switch!). Wasn't sure how well a Unibus system would handle things, but I know that my VAXstation II/RC running VAX/VMS V5.5 and the CMU TCP/IP stack was very slow, as is my PDP-11/73. Of course if I'm remembering correctly the Q-Bus backplane is only 3Mb/sec. I still remember how much of a speed difference I saw going from running Linux on a 486DX/33 with an ISA NIC, to a Pentium 133 with a PCI NIC. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Dec 31 17:00:32 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 16:00:32 -0700 Subject: TTL 7400's Available In-Reply-To: References: <200612160241.kBG2fNG6087742@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45984110.5020708@jetnet.ab.ca> 9000 VAX wrote: > On 12/18/06, CRC wrote: > >> >> Cleaning out things and came across 40+ tubes (24/tube) of TTL 5400 >> Quad Nand Gates (Mil version of the 7400). Free for postage. >> >> Here's your chance to build your computer from scratch :oD > If you have some 7406's... > > vax, 9000 > > CRC A 18 bit CPU with a 1.5 us cycle time seems possible but I need some OC buffers. All I can say is the Flip/Flops are a bitch to design. Registers are MAR/MDR/PC/AC -- From cbajpai at comcast.net Sun Dec 31 17:11:10 2006 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:11:10 -0500 Subject: Cray-I PCB for display at Goodwill In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200612312311.kBVNBHhp017095@keith.ezwind.net> I remember an article reading some guy from Silicon Valley bought a working Cray for the expressed purpose of selling it bit-by-bit. :-) I think he got the Cray-1 for $100K I believe. -Chandra -----Original Messa----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 9000 VAX Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 1:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Cray-I PCB for display at Goodwill On 12/31/06, Keys wrote: > > > $21 right now. > John > > I remember that several years ago, those were listed on ebay regularly for several hundred dollors a piece. It seemed somebody made it a business to frame cray boards at that time. vax, 9000 From cbajpai at comcast.net Sun Dec 31 17:13:48 2006 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:13:48 -0500 Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20061231032842.039f3f08@pop.1and1.com> Message-ID: <200612312313.kBVNDvDZ017180@keith.ezwind.net> Awesome! I wish I had access to equipment like this...I'd start x-raying everything! A 128K Mac might be real interesting to see like this. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Grant Stockly Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 7:31 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Apple Disk ][ X-Ray This is my attempt at an "art" x-ray. This image includes the entire range of densities. If I were to penetrate the motor I would blow through the plastic. This is a high resolution x-ray. Zoom into the front label and see if you can read the embossed name plates... What COLOR is this actual drive? The answer is in there! ; ) http://www.stockly.com/images2/061231-Disk_II_Drive-120kv6ma15msDG35SFD.jpg This shot was taken with the drive elevated at an angle by foam so that you would get a 3d feeling and not a flat picture. Let me know if its cool. I may x-ray an entire computer next... : ) Grant From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 31 17:19:24 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 15:19:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Cray-I PCB for display at Goodwill In-Reply-To: <200612312311.kBVNBHhp017095@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200612312311.kBVNBHhp017095@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20061231151904.U8855@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 31 Dec 2006, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > I remember an article reading some guy from Silicon Valley bought a working > Cray for the expressed purpose of selling it bit-by-bit. :-) > I think he got the Cray-1 for $100K I believe. Prob'ly Tony Cole From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 31 17:31:56 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 16:31:56 -0700 Subject: Build your own Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:01:43 -0700. <45981727.2040705@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <45981727.2040705 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > Richard wrote: > > > Is it even possible to build with RTL parts anymore? > > > > I guess you'd have to do it PDP-8 style with discrete transistors? > Well I don't like the FPGA idea -- TTL/DTL/RTL logic is still > visible logic. What good is FPGA's if the windows gets updated and > the FPGA software is not supported. PALS and GALS I could see used. Sense not making, you. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 31 18:47:44 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 16:47:44 -0800 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com>, <45982A14.5070302@shiresoft.com>, Message-ID: <4597E9B0.23322.59FCD56@cclist.sydex.com> Well, here's why I asked. The system sitting off of the second hub seems to get about 10% lower throughput (same O/S, same NIC) off the 'net than any system sitting off the first hub (all much slower systems). Could the second hub and the translation/turnaround over the coax link between the two be the culprit? Just trying to figure out why a 2 GHz box is getting consistently beaten by a 225 MHz one. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Dec 31 18:55:11 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 00:55:11 -0000 (GMT) Subject: happy In-Reply-To: <459700E3.20762.212711C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <459700E3.20762.212711C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4936.192.168.0.2.1167612911.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> $festivities with lashings of $beverage for all! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From spc at conman.org Sun Dec 31 20:22:40 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 21:22:40 -0500 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <4597E9B0.23322.59FCD56@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4597E9B0.23322.59FCD56@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070101022240.GA17269@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > Well, here's why I asked. > > The system sitting off of the second hub seems to get about 10% lower > throughput (same O/S, same NIC) off the 'net than any system sitting > off the first hub (all much slower systems). > > Could the second hub and the translation/turnaround over the coax > link between the two be the culprit? > > Just trying to figure out why a 2 GHz box is getting consistently > beaten by a 225 MHz one. Did you try putting the 2GHz system on the first hub? Other problems including speed and duplex mismatches between the 2GHz system and the hub it's plugged into (I've run into that problem a few times at work) or perhaps a marginal cable (between the computer and hub, or hub to hub). -spc (Just some ideas ... ) From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Dec 31 20:29:57 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 20:29:57 -0600 Subject: Network question References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com>, <45982A14.5070302@shiresoft.com>, <4597E9B0.23322.59FCD56@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <003301c72d4c$bc2934d0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> You wrote... > Just trying to figure out why a 2 GHz box is getting consistently > beaten by a 225 MHz one. This sounds like the classic problem of a duplex mismatch between the device and the hub. A lot of folks don't realize it, but when you mix 10mb/HDX/100mb/FDX devices in a single network - you would THINK that the devices would autonegotiate identical settings on both ends. C'mon, they even SAY they autonegotiate on the box, and they DO have an 'auto' setting, right? Fact is, they get it wrong better than 80% of the time. Even two devices from the same manufacturer usually don't autonegotiate right. Pretend that "autonegotiation" doesn't exist. Set both ends manually to identical settings. If one Some will say - this can't be... I plug them in and they work, and the right speed lights come on! And they pass traffic JUST fine. Don't trust this. FDX/HDX mismatches can create very odd looking wierdness. Like a connection that SEEMS to work, but is actually working very poorly. Jay From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Dec 31 20:32:21 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:32:21 -0800 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <20070101022240.GA17269@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <4597E9B0.23322.59FCD56@cclist.sydex.com> <20070101022240.GA17269@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: At 9:22 PM -0500 12/31/06, Sean Conner wrote: > Other problems including speed and duplex mismatches between the 2GHz >system and the hub it's plugged into (I've run into that problem a few times >at work) or perhaps a marginal cable (between the computer and hub, or hub >to hub). I've had nightmarish problems over the years with bad ports on switches. I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out why I was having so much trouble with my PDP-11 running RSTS/E and DECnet/E, and it turned out to be the one switch. Another time I was getting crazy slow speeds between a 2Ghz P4 running XP and a dual 2Ghz Mac. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 31 23:27:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 21:27:51 -0800 Subject: Network question In-Reply-To: <003301c72d4c$bc2934d0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <45979317.4685.44D897E@cclist.sydex.com>, <003301c72d4c$bc2934d0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <45982B57.11988.6A04093@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Dec 2006 at 20:29, Jay West wrote: > Some will say - this can't be... I plug them in and they work, and the right > speed lights come on! And they pass traffic JUST fine. Don't trust this. > FDX/HDX mismatches can create very odd looking wierdness. Like a connection > that SEEMS to work, but is actually working very poorly. That may well be the problem, thanks! I'll check into it. Cheers, Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Dec 31 23:50:28 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 23:50:28 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP Testing help, Round 2 Message-ID: <4598A124.7050307@brutman.com> Happy New Year! I'm back at it again - I plan on doing better this time. (I've fixed the specific double delete bug that bit me last time, improved tracing quite a bit, and added a lot of consistency checking code.) Just like last time, all you need to do is telnet to 24.159.203.149, port 2301. Once again, that's my Linux box, but today it is forwarding port 2301 to my PCjr. The commands are slightly enhanced from the last test, but it isn't anything highly interactive. Up to 9 people can connect simultaneously. We didn't get more than 2 or 3 simultaneous connections last time, so I'm probably overly optimistic. Some of you noted from last time that there is no character echoing or line editing. Telnet users on Unix machines will probably have local line editing, which makes things a wee bit nicer. The standard Windows telnet client doesn't do that by default, so you will type but not see your characters. That's a project for a different day. Here is a picture of the machine you are connecting to, complete with the Western Digital 8003 Ethernet card grafted onto the side: http://brutman.com/PCjr_WD_small.jpg And lastly, if you remember, type in your OS and machine type as a command. It will complain about it being an invalid command, but I'll see it in the log and I'll have a better idea of what I'm testing against. Thanks in advance, Mike From Reber48035 at aol.com Sun Dec 31 16:41:56 2006 From: Reber48035 at aol.com (Reber48035 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 17:41:56 EST Subject: HP-97 Manual Message-ID: Hi, I'm finding inconsistencies between the HP-67 & HP-97. I'm looking for an HP-97 Manual and saw a note from Joe that stated Mike Haas found one. Is it for sale? Gregg