From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 1 00:14:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 22:14:21 -0800 Subject: UK PAL ==> US NTSC video convertor box? In-Reply-To: <456FAC17.2070604@yahoo.co.uk> References: <456D5C3E.1020105@yahoo.co.uk>, <001201c713e6$4ddbba40$0200a8c0@p2deskto>, <456FAC17.2070604@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <456F57BD.14624.112377C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Nov 2006 at 22:14, Jules Richardson wrote: > I wonder what the quality's like? Going PAL -> recoder -> NTSC obviously won't > be as good as native NTSC device output. Or, to put it another way, is the > average PCI TV tuner card as good quality as the tuner found in a good TV set? ...a silly question occurred to me. Why bother with remodulating? Why not just drive an RGB monitor with the demodulated output? I use such an arrangement to view PAL-recoded VHS tapes and resulting color is much better than local NTSC broadcast quality. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Dec 1 02:09:56 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 00:09:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Nov 2006, Richard wrote: > Has anyone considered decompilation (producing sources from binaries) > as a way of archiving system or application software that is defunct? > > I know lots of people have disassembled ROM listings and created > commented ASM listings from the ROM, but what about larger systems > where hand-disassembly is impractical? What binaries in particular are you thinking of? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From paul at frixxon.co.uk Fri Dec 1 03:36:07 2006 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 09:36:07 +0000 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: <004001c714dd$415adbf0$4804010a@uatempname> References: <004001c714dd$415adbf0$4804010a@uatempname> Message-ID: <456FF787.2060201@frixxon.co.uk> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > The RSX & RT-11 manuals I scanned had various pages with colour - > for RSX-11M & RSX-11MPLUS it matters because various sections > only apply under certain conditions and colour is used to > indicate that. > I scanned the entire manual in B&W on one scanner and then passed > the colour pages through a colour scanner: 600dpi @ 24-bit colour. > I know I should be able to get those pages down to a few 100KB > each but currently they're all still 24MB or so. I have post-processed some of those manuals to split the colours into layers, convert them to 1bpp and reassemble. This can make a spectacular difference to file size. For example, the original colour scan of AA-5286G-TC was 117 MiB. By splitting the black and red into layers, the size has come down to 7.9 MiB. I perform the image processing with a netpbm chain, and then assemble the PDF with a Perl script, using PDF::API2. -- Paul From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Dec 1 05:14:59 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 11:14:59 +0000 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456FA745.9000209@yahoo.co.uk> References: <456E5045.5010106@yahoo.co.uk> <456EC4B8.6000106@gjcp.net> <456FA745.9000209@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45700EB3.6020702@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> I still have my (almost) fully-loaded Atom > > I was hoping that by 'fully loaded' you meant that it had the BBC BASIC, > Econet and Colour boards :-) (I've never seen a real example of the > latter, although I know that there's at least one in the UK) No, but it does have an EPROM in the extension socket labelled "TOOLKIT ROM #A000" or something similar. I've never quite figured that one out. > You know, I have a feeling that you can get 7805 regulators that'll > handle 2A each - but maybe they weren't around when the Atom was new. > Even then, just doubling them up and hoping they'd share the load evenly > was always going to be a bit risky. I did toy with the idea of replacing all its 2114s with 6264s at one time. Now, of course, I don't think I would. Gordon. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 1 09:06:34 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 07:06:34 -0800 Subject: HP 9000s, Canon Cat, felines, etc. was Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <502105.13914.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >From: Chris M >\> > >--- dwight elvey wrote: > > > Hi > > All that is fine except they state "no tripods". > > They are not > > specific about which type, just "NO". > > Dwight > > Yeah I guess I missed that part. But truthfully with >a bit of practice, you could still use a measly 1.2 >mpix cam to do the job. IT IS DOABLE TO ALL THE >NAYSAYERS. > Honestly, I can't see how some sort of support you >place against your chest would be against the rules >though. It's not really a tripod. You could bring it >with you, and if they say no, you can fall back on >your sense of aim. > Hi I do have a Canon with a stablizied lens. I'll bring that on my next trip. First time, I'll just look and take a few notes. They were specific about not copying entire documents but like I said, a glossory of the words would be all I need. I already have a fair understanding of how the Cat's token threaded code works. I can go from token to execution address and back. I can also go from token to dictionary name and back. That is what is needed for a high level decompiler. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC.? Get a free 90-day trial! http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/?href=http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail From irisworld at mac.com Fri Dec 1 10:11:55 2006 From: irisworld at mac.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 11:11:55 -0500 Subject: Does this qualify as vintage computer? Message-ID: <6B274EC7-9C87-4488-AE02-9921D4C32048@mac.com> Kind of neat: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15984363/ Rob Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From marvin at rain.org Fri Dec 1 10:35:48 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 08:35:48 -0800 Subject: decompilation as archiving? Message-ID: <457059E4.6B05CE66@rain.org> One of the programs available sometime in the late 1980's was a program called Sourcer that included a program called BIOS Pre-procesor for the PC, a ROM BIOS Listing generator (V Communications.) Neat program and while I am not a programmer, it was fun to disassemble the ROM BIOS routines and take a look. The BIOS listing had enough comments to make it useful. > From: Richard > > Has anyone considered decompilation (producing sources from binaries) > as a way of archiving system or application software that is defunct? > > I know lots of people have disassembled ROM listings and created > commented ASM listings from the ROM, but what about larger systems > where hand-disassembly is impractical? From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Dec 1 10:45:10 2006 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 11:45:10 -0500 Subject: decompilation as archiving? Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Nov 2006, Richard wrote: > Has anyone considered decompilation (producing sources from binaries) > as a way of archiving system or application software that is defunct? > > I know lots of people have disassembled ROM listings and created > commented ASM listings from the ROM, but what about larger systems > where hand-disassembly is impractical? Hand-disassembly is just the start. Vast machineries of automated disassembly/decompilation is used throughout the world in piracy and reverse-engineering activities. These sorts of tools have been in existence for at least 30 years, very likely 40 or 50 years. Related to these machinations are other tools used in reverse-engineering, including emulators, simulators, in-circuit emulators, logic analyzers, etc. All of these tools are also used in retro-computing as defined by many different groups: video gamers, emulation of historically important systems by academics, and everything in between. But what you describe goes way beyond simple archiving, and more into the tools that let you analyze and appreciate the code. If you can combine the code with the original designers, original users, original business documents, etc., then you are really on the road to a complete recreation of not only the code, but the world at the time. As a classic example, 25 years ago you could buy a tool that disassembled your CP/M binaries and turned them into *commented* sources. Not the original source, of course! Tim. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 11:19:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 10:19:57 -0700 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Dec 2006 09:36:07 +0000. <456FF787.2060201@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <456FF787.2060201 at frixxon.co.uk>, Paul Williams writes: > I have post-processed some of those manuals to split the colours into > layers, convert them to 1bpp and reassemble. This can make a spectacular > difference to file size. I have some DEC manuals that have this black & red text thing going on. What's the netpbm chain you used to split into 1bpp red and black layers? That's exactly what I was planning on doing, but its handy to leverage someone else's work in perfecting the command line :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 11:30:59 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 10:30:59 -0700 Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? Message-ID: A guy on ebay is selling something that looks suspiciously like the monitor portion of a terminal, but he is calling it a Hazeltine 'computer'. I asked him if it was a terminal and he responded saying: "Its a computer, not a monitor." Either he didn't understand my question (I didn't ask if it was a monitor, I asked if it was a terminal) or he had a brain-fart and typed "monitor" instead of terminal in his reply. The item is #300053801044 and has a detail photo of the model plate where it says model 1DTD155463. On the lower left rear is what looks suspiciously like two DB-25 style connectors, presumably one for the host and one for a printer. So, did Hazeltine ever make a computer or did they only make terminals? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 11:26:16 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 10:26:16 -0700 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Dec 2006 08:35:48 -0800. <457059E4.6B05CE66@rain.org> Message-ID: In article <457059E4.6B05CE66 at rain.org>, Marvin Johnston writes: > One of the programs available sometime in the late 1980's was a > program called Sourcer [...] Its still around and can work on Windows code now. There are a variety of such programs and this is what got me thinking about such a beast for vintage computers. Cases where the application source (or OS source!) has been lost. Someone asked me in private email why I'd want to do this -- I consider the source code just as an important historical artifact as the compiled binaries and physical hardware. For the same reason that people want schematics for vintage hardware, having source code for vintage software is also useful. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 11:27:58 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 10:27:58 -0700 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Dec 2006 00:09:56 -0800. Message-ID: In article , David Griffith writes: > What binaries in particular are you thinking of? Nothing in particular, I suppose. But if I wanted to study RT-11 in detail, hand disassembling it would be a major undertaking. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 1 11:44:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 09:44:07 -0800 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <456FF967.12374.139AF6D4@cclist.sydex.com> > On Thu, 30 Nov 2006, Richard wrote: > > Has anyone considered decompilation (producing sources from > binaries) as a way of archiving system or application software that is > defunct? It depends. I've disassembled plenty of ROMs in my day and it's not too bad--just time consuming. Decompilation can be somewhat harder if you don't know the way the original compiler worked. Aggressive automatic optimization can really obscure the original code, especially when the optimizer can move code or schedule instruction issue times. A lot of the time, an optimization will result in a bit of clever code that not many programmers would consider writing, if they were working in assembly. On the other hand, compilers organize data and code in a predictable way, which does give you a leg up over a hunk of code generated from assembly. That being said, the occasional orphan application or operating system will yield its secrets only to decompilation/disassembly. Depending upon how littlel you understand the original program and its structure and optimization, the time required can be large. For modern processors, I own a copy of IDA Pro, probably one of the best (and wouldn't you know that it comes out of Russia!). The only worrisome nugget is that if you're in the USA, decompilation may be a violation of the DMCA--I'm not sure. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 1 11:57:56 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 09:57:56 -0800 Subject: decompilation as archiving? Message-ID: <45706D24.6040207@bitsavers.org> > But if I wanted to study RT-11 in > detail, hand disassembling it would be a major undertaking. Actually, a bad example, since sources are available. This is a worthwhile effort, but very time consuming. The DMCA also is an issue. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Dec 1 12:26:53 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 10:26:53 -0800 Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457073ED.8000507@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: > > >The item is #300053801044 and has a detail photo of the model plate >where it says model 1DTD155463. On the lower left rear is what looks >suspiciously like two DB-25 style connectors, presumably one for the >host and one for a printer. > > the Hazeltine 2000 terminal had a huge keyboard, with a couple of neon indicators on it, and you could kill someone with the keyboard box. The keyboard attached to the read with a db-25, so this box may have one connector for that. The other thing about this vintage of Hazeltine is that they used core memory for the display memory, so there is a hidden treasure here. Also, one can see what is on the screen from the last use until you clear the screen after powering it on, so if he has not done that, you will have an interesting thing to get from that. I wonder where a mouse and 5 1/4 drive attached to this as he says? that sounds way later than Hazeltine survived by my memory to be correct. At least I don't think even the Alto's were out before Hazeltine had ceased to make this style terminal. BTW the Hazeltine I recall with core dated from probably 68 or 69, if this is later it may have some other display memory. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 12:28:04 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 11:28:04 -0700 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Dec 2006 09:57:56 -0800. <45706D24.6040207@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <45706D24.6040207 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > > But if I wanted to study RT-11 in > > detail, hand disassembling it would be a major undertaking. > > Actually, a bad example, since sources are available. OK, ok, ok, not RT-11. > This is a worthwhile effort, but very time consuming. At this point its a thought experiment initiated by the knowledge that there are programs for x86 that disassemble and then reconstitute HLL source from the dissassembled binaries. Of course the HLL source doesn't have comments and most of the variable names aren't particularly meaningful, but its something. Maybe a better example would be something like reconstituting an application where the owners of the property rights are defunct (dead companies) or even the owners don't have the source anymore. > The DMCA also is an issue. A person once said to me "All the good laws were already written at the time of the founding of the Republic, so all that's left for congress to do is write bad ones". That about sums up my feelings on the DMCA. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Dec 1 12:41:15 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 10:41:15 -0800 Subject: decompilation as archiving? Message-ID: <4570774B.4020308@bitsavers.org> > Maybe a better example would be something like reconstituting an > application where the owners of the property rights are defunct (dead > companies) or even the owners don't have the source anymore. Another example I can think of is where you have a piece of test equipment whose operation depends upon software for a computer that is no longer generally available. The Biomation CLAS 4000 logic analyzer, for example, is a SCSI device whose user interface runs on a 68000 Macintosh. Firmware/software for test equipment is one area in particular that points out the problem of devices becoming boat anchors because the code to control them wasn't preserved with the device. The trend in the past 10 years to produce subscription devices that depend on a host run by a company that no longer exists (Richochet, Catapult, Kerbango, ...) is another annoyance. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 12:34:11 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 11:34:11 -0700 Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Dec 2006 10:26:53 -0800. <457073ED.8000507@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: In article <457073ED.8000507 at msm.umr.edu>, jim stephens writes: > Richard wrote: > > >The item is #300053801044 and has a detail photo of the model plate > >where it says model 1DTD155463. On the lower left rear is what looks > >suspiciously like two DB-25 style connectors, presumably one for the > >host and one for a printer. > > > > > the Hazeltine 2000 terminal [...] Yes, but this is not a Hazeltine 2000. Its too modern for that. Plus the Hazeltine 2000 has a different enclosure and says in huge letters "Hazeltine 2000" on the front. So this is something different. I asked him to post a detail photo fo the connectors on the bottom left. Its always possible that Hazeltine did make some sort of weird computer. I just never heard of one and searching all the usual suspects (1000bit.net, old-computers.com, etc.) didn't turn up any computers under the Hazeltine brand. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 1 12:58:33 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 10:58:33 -0800 Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? In-Reply-To: <457073ED.8000507@msm.umr.edu> References: , <457073ED.8000507@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <45700AD9.27807.13DF1C2F@cclist.sydex.com> > Richard wrote: > >The item is #300053801044 and has a detail photo of the model plate > >where it says model 1DTD155463. On the lower left rear is what looks > >suspiciously like two DB-25 style connectors, presumably one for the > >host and one for a printer. I've got a Hazeltine 5.25" 96tpi DSDD CP/M diskette in my sample collection, so yes, they did make a computer. Probably along the lines of many other terminal manufacturers--added a Z80 and diskette controller to an existing terminal chassis. I think I see 3 connectors, not two. At any rate, this looks to be a notch up from the dreadful 1400 terminal that used tilde as a control character (!). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 1 13:04:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 11:04:31 -0800 Subject: New Cipher 525 tape drive on ePay Message-ID: <45700C3F.28363.13E49132@cclist.sydex.com> Probably one of the first "floppy tapes". Item 320056306946. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Dec 1 13:59:58 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 19:59:58 -0000 (GMT) Subject: TI CC40 Message-ID: <1689.192.168.0.4.1165003198.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Hi Folks, Am I imagining things or was there a discussion very recently about Texas Instruments' little baby? Whilst browsing ebay uk last week I found one that was NIB so naturally I had to have it :) The seller works 5 minutes from my weekend home so it was even better. Pictures will be up once I've taken them. Serial is #384 so does anyone know how many escaped from Ti Labs? Or did they use a random serial numbering scheme..... Ta, -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 1 14:09:13 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 12:09:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: TI CC40 In-Reply-To: <1689.192.168.0.4.1165003198.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> from Witchy at "Dec 1, 6 07:59:58 pm" Message-ID: <200612012009.kB1K9DeS010480@floodgap.com> > Am I imagining things or was there a discussion very recently about Texas > Instruments' little baby? Whilst browsing ebay uk last week I found one > that was NIB so naturally I had to have it :) The seller works 5 minutes > from my weekend home so it was even better. Fun little units -- too bad mass storage on them is pretty much a loss. If only that wafertape drive had gotten more reliable or widely produced ... I have a CC40 and the printer and RS-232. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. -- Jack Paar ---------------- From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Fri Dec 1 15:30:29 2006 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 22:30:29 +0100 Subject: Atom Toolkit. Was: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <200612011805.kB1I4mxV056915@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612011805.kB1I4mxV056915@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45709EF5.2020302@xs4all.nl> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > No, but it does have an EPROM in the extension socket labelled "TOOLKIT > ROM #A000" or something similar. I've never quite figured that one out. > > Maybee this Atom toolkit: http://www.xs4all.nl/~fjkraan/comp/atom/toolkit.txt Fred Jan From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 17:49:59 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 16:49:59 -0700 Subject: Corporate genealogy? Message-ID: Has anyone attempted to make a "big picture" view of the vendor landscape by creating a chart showing spin-offs and acquisitions of various vendors? I find this information sprinkled throughout Wikipedia, but no attempt at creating a "big picture" view. Has anyone done such a thing? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 1 17:20:52 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 23:20:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456FA745.9000209@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Nov 30, 6 09:53:41 pm Message-ID: > > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > I still have my (almost) fully-loaded Atom > > I was hoping that by 'fully loaded' you meant that it had the BBC BASIC, > Econet and Colour boards :-) (I've never seen a real example of the latter, > although I know that there's at least one in the UK) What does the colour board look like, and where does it fit? > You know, I have a feeling that you can get 7805 regulators that'll handle 2A There's the 78S05 (2A ,in a plastic TO220 pacakge, like the plain 7805) and the 78H05 (5A, in a metal TO3 pacakge) > There's a lot of Atoms out there that have had the regulators bypassed, no > sticker added, and then subsequently had 9V shoved through them :( s/through/across/ Ouch. I am sure that cooks a few ICs... -tony From rcini at optonline.net Fri Dec 1 17:55:47 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 18:55:47 -0500 Subject: Corporate genealogy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003b01c715a4$390f6ac0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> I know there was one done about semiconductor companies descended from Shockley but it was only current through about 2001 and it didn't cover every company. I might have a copy of that at work. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 6:50 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Corporate genealogy? Has anyone attempted to make a "big picture" view of the vendor landscape by creating a chart showing spin-offs and acquisitions of various vendors? I find this information sprinkled throughout Wikipedia, but no attempt at creating a "big picture" view. Has anyone done such a thing? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wizard at voyager.net Fri Dec 1 18:39:50 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 19:39:50 -0500 Subject: Gentle Cleaners Used on Old Computers Message-ID: <1165019991.17062.89.camel@linux.site> Hey, all, I put together this list from the "Green Goo" thread. If anyone has more good information about various cleaners, or procurement information about ones listed, I would appreciate hearing about it, and I'll update the list. It could be handy -- maybe even a FAQ answer. Sincerely, Warren Wolfe ********************************************************** Gentle Cleaners Used on Old Computers. Caig DeOxIt - Remove oxidation from electronics, and clean - http://www.tubesandmore.com/ Caig ProGold - Seal and lube circuit card edge fingers, etc. - Radio Shack 64.4338 http://www.tubesandmore.com/ GooGone - Cleans off old adhesive residue. Mr. Clean - Cleans stains, discoloration, and magic marker from painted metal. Magic Eraser Afta - Cleans glues and residues - Home Depot CaiLube MCL - Cleans and lubes potentiometers, especially. - http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.183/.f From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 1 18:48:23 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 16:48:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Does this qualify as vintage computer? In-Reply-To: <6B274EC7-9C87-4488-AE02-9921D4C32048@mac.com> Message-ID: <845602.22347.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Robert Borsuk wrote: > Kind of neat: > > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15984363/ > > > Rob Hey, who's interested in developing an FPGA implementation of that hunk of garbage LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL. O me. O my. Phew. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 1 19:06:58 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 17:06:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? In-Reply-To: <45700AD9.27807.13DF1C2F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <777655.88883.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got a Hazeltine 5.25" 96tpi DSDD CP/M diskette > in my sample > collection, so yes, they did make a computer. > Probably along the > lines of many other terminal manufacturers--added a > Z80 and diskette > controller to an existing terminal chassis. Yes it depends also on what you want to call a computer. Most of us want to pump diskettes into it and whatnot, but I opened up an IBM terminal some years ago and found alot of the guts of a typical peecee. No, it probably didn't have any provision for connecting anything but the k/b and display, but it just goes to show how definitions can be open to interpretation. I'd like to get my hands on one of those. Thought it might be fun to see what it would take to make a full fledged pc out of it. A new chip there...solder a few jumpers there...;). And the thing was capable of analog color IIRC. I don't recall their being an intensity input. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From ssj152 at centurytel.net Fri Dec 1 19:12:38 2006 From: ssj152 at centurytel.net (Stuart Johnson) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 19:12:38 -0600 Subject: Lyle Bickley: Update on TSX+ ?? Message-ID: <001001c715ae$f5308900$fa00a8c0@badddog> Lyle, It has been a while since you updated the Classiccmp list with the status of your project to make TSX+ available to hobbyists. Can you tell us where the project is at the present time? Regards, Stuart Johnson From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 1 19:17:10 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 19:17:10 -0600 Subject: Gentle Cleaners Used on Old Computers References: <1165019991.17062.89.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <001a01c715af$99076fd0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Warren wrote.... > I put together this list from the "Green Goo" thread. There is an article in the classiccmp knowledgebase about cleaners that lists most of what you have there. I think your article would make a good addition to that, if you don't mind. Jay West From evan at snarc.net Fri Dec 1 19:24:36 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 20:24:36 -0500 Subject: TI CC40 In-Reply-To: <200612012009.kB1K9DeS010480@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <002901c715b0$a17f4b50$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> I also have one that's new-in-box and it's most definitely for sale. Cash preferred but interesting trades considered. - Evan -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser [mailto:spectre at floodgap.com] Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:09 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: TI CC40 > Am I imagining things or was there a discussion very recently about > Texas Instruments' little baby? Whilst browsing ebay uk last week I > found one that was NIB so naturally I had to have it :) The seller > works 5 minutes from my weekend home so it was even better. Fun little units -- too bad mass storage on them is pretty much a loss. If only that wafertape drive had gotten more reliable or widely produced ... I have a CC40 and the printer and RS-232. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. -- Jack Paar ---------------- From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 1 19:25:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 17:25:31 -0800 Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? In-Reply-To: <777655.88883.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <45700AD9.27807.13DF1C2F@cclist.sydex.com>, <777655.88883.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4570658B.3763.15415FC4@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Dec 2006 at 17:06, Chris M wrote: > Yes it depends also on what you want to call a > computer. Most of us want to pump diskettes into it > and whatnot, but I opened up an IBM terminal some > years ago and found alot of the guts of a typical > peecee.... Does the term "thin client" sound familiar? :) Even when a manufacturer had a terminal, some didn't bother with the additional CPU and just used the same one used to run the display. Before I had diskette drives, I ran an old Beehive editing terminal with both a printer and a dual cassette (paper-tape substitute kind) deck. I could do word processing of a sort on it; was it a computer? Seems so to me. It had an 8008 CPU and shift-register memory. I coiuldn't print with it, but that was my shortcoming--I didn't have the proper printer for it--it had a printer port and a "print" key. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 19:41:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 18:41:55 -0700 Subject: Corporate genealogy? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Dec 2006 18:55:47 -0500. <003b01c715a4$390f6ac0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: In article <003b01c715a4$390f6ac0$6401a8c0 at bbrrooqpbzx6tz>, "Richard A. Cini" writes: > I know there was one done about semiconductor companies descended from > Shockley but it was only current through about 2001 and it didn't cover > every company. I might have a copy of that at work. I'm willing to bet that these have been done for individual 'trees', but that there's no extant diagrammed forest of the entire sphere of computing. This sounds like something that would be a good use of a wiki because everyone could contribute pieces they know... For instance I know of one company that was in Salt Lake which went through all of these incarnations: BTS, Philips Digital Video Systems, Thomson Digital Video Systems, Bausch Television Systems, and a couple others I can't remember right now. In the distant past (1970s/1980s) they made the digital hardware box that was used to create the Dire Straits music video "Money for Nothin'". and later they made a digital video server product that was the backbone (and probably still is) of the Home and Garden Channel. It served *uncompressed* broadcast quality video. No compression artifacts! Then there's Evans & Sutherland, which is still around, but has sold units to Parametric Technology Corporation and Rockwell-Collins. In addition, ex-E&S employees have founded Silicon Graphics, Inc. (James Clark), Adobe (John Warnock) and a couple others IIRC. Then just think of the cloud of companies surrounding the giants like DEC, IBM and Hewlett-Packard. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From evan at snarc.net Fri Dec 1 19:44:59 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 20:44:59 -0500 Subject: OFFICIAL VCF EAST 4.0 date(s) Message-ID: <002d01c715b3$7a7166d0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> This just in: we picked Saturday, June 9, and (probably) Sunday, June 10 as well. Hopefully we will determine the need for a second day soon. Someone, somewhere, will probably have a graduation-related conflict. To that person(s), I apologize, but we did our best. East 3.0 was awesome, but I gaurantee that East 4.0 will kick 3's ass!! - Evan From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 19:45:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 18:45:40 -0700 Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 01 Dec 2006 17:06:58 -0800. <777655.88883.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <777655.88883.qm at web61017.mail.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > Yes it depends also on what you want to call a > computer. Most of us want to pump diskettes into it > and whatnot, but I opened up an IBM terminal some > years ago and found alot of the guts of a typical > peecee. No, it probably didn't have any provision for > connecting anything but the k/b and display, but it > just goes to show how definitions can be open to > interpretation. They say the microprocessor was invented to make terminals inexpensive. For my purposes, terminal applies to anything designed to act as such. Most have microprocessors with RAM and ROM, which makes up a basic computer system. But they aren't designed to be used as end-user computers, they're designed to talk serial I/O to some remote computer if they're a terminal. That's why a regular PC with terminal emulation software for the serial port doesn't count as a terminal by my definition :-). > I'd like to get my hands on one of those. Thought it > might be fun to see what it would take to make a full > fledged pc out of it. A new chip there...solder a few > jumpers there...;). And the thing was capable of > analog color IIRC. I don't recall their being an > intensity input. Just so everyone knows, I'm not interested in a Hazeltine computer, so if anyone wants it they won't be bidding against me :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wizard at voyager.net Fri Dec 1 19:50:45 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 20:50:45 -0500 Subject: Gentle Cleaners Used on Old Computers In-Reply-To: <001a01c715af$99076fd0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <1165019991.17062.89.camel@linux.site> <001a01c715af$99076fd0$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1165024245.17062.125.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-12-01 at 19:17 -0600, Jay West wrote: > Warren wrote.... > > I put together this list from the "Green Goo" thread. > > There is an article in the classiccmp knowledgebase about cleaners that > lists most of what you have there. I think your article would make a good > addition to that, if you don't mind. Not at all, although calling it an article is a fancy bit of exaggeration... Rights are hereby granted to any cctalk subscriber. Feel free to place it in the KB, and don't feel bad about only taking the non-redundant information. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From bfoley at dcs.warwick.ac.uk Fri Dec 1 20:10:37 2006 From: bfoley at dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Brian Foley) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 02:10:37 +0000 Subject: Corporate genealogy? In-Reply-To: <003b01c715a4$390f6ac0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <003b01c715a4$390f6ac0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <20061202021036.GA29252@mail.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 06:55:47PM -0500, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I know there was one done about semiconductor companies descended from > Shockley but it was only current through about 2001 and it didn't cover > every company. I might have a copy of that at work. A friend pointed me at a chart on Wikipedia of some of the mergers that led to BAE Systems. It includes some of the British computer companies such as GEC, Ferranti, and English Electric: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:BAE_Systems_evolution.png Interesting to see UK aerospace following the seeming unavoidable pattern of technology comanies in the UK: lots of engineering smarts, but not so effective management... Cheers, Brian. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 1 20:32:15 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 18:32:15 -0800 Subject: Gentle Cleaners Used on Old Computers In-Reply-To: <1165019991.17062.89.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: >From: Warren Wolfe > >Hey, all, > > I put together this list from the "Green Goo" thread. If anyone has >more good information about various cleaners, or procurement information >about ones listed, I would appreciate hearing about it, and I'll update >the list. It could be handy -- maybe even a FAQ answer. > > Sincerely, > > Warren Wolfe > >********************************************************** > > Gentle Cleaners Used on Old Computers. > > > >Caig DeOxIt - Remove oxidation from electronics, and clean > - http://www.tubesandmore.com/ > >Caig ProGold - Seal and lube circuit card edge fingers, etc. > - Radio Shack 64.4338 > http://www.tubesandmore.com/ > >GooGone - Cleans off old adhesive residue. > >Mr. Clean - Cleans stains, discoloration, and magic >marker from painted metal. >Magic Eraser > >Afta - Cleans glues and residues > - Home Depot > >CaiLube MCL - Cleans and lubes potentiometers, especially. > - >http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.183/.f Hi I've used googone on some plastics. It seems to remove the oxide surface without damaging the plastic. Do use with caution and test on a hidden surface first. Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Dec 1 21:46:03 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 22:46:03 -0500 Subject: Disk image conversions? In-Reply-To: <003b01c7134e$c96206d0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <200612020251.kB22pKKZ032340@hosting.monisys.ca> > Here's an interesting one. I have several disk images for the > Tandy 2000 that had been made with TeleDisk. One of the images is bad for > some reason (must be truncated; won't get past track 30; complains that > target disk drive is not ready when it reaches T30). The original disk is > not available. > > I've done the basic troubleshooting on the drive and media > (other images made with same new floppy diskette and drive work fine; > swapped drive and media) to eliminate them from the failure tree. > > Even though TeleDisk seems to write to track 30 just fine, the > disk is unusable. This is odd because it's an MS-DOS format (although 80T > 9S) so all of the directory and media parameter info is at the front of the > disk rather than the back. > > Is there anything I can do with this partial disk image to > retrieve at least some of the info? I know this won't help you with this problem, however I'd like to point out that this is exactly the reason I created ImageDisk - ImageDisk is a replacement for TeleDisk that has an open and documented disk image format, utilities for extracting/merging tracks, converting to/from raw binary, and many options to help accomodate those times when you need to do exceptional data recovery. Full source code to the main program and utilties is also available. The whole point behind ImageDisk is to give you the information and tools you need to attempt data recovery by "any and all other means" if you find yourself in a situation like this. Regarding your teledisk image - is it possible that the original disk was copy protected, or for some other reason had a non-standard format? - If for example, there were a single-density track in the middle of it (say on track 30) - MANY PC's would be unable to recreate the disk and might exhibit symptoms similar to what you describe. Chuck wrote a very useful TESTSD program which helps identify PCs which can do SD - I have it posted on my site. I've also found that for some formats it can help a lot to slow the drive slightly - This is common in Cromemco formats - probably not the case with a DOS format, but it is a Tandy variation and you never know - worth a try. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Dec 1 22:23:17 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 22:23:17 -0600 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <200611292344.kATNicxL027839@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611292344.kATNicxL027839@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4570FFB5.5000407@brutman.com> aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk wrote: > --- Jim Leonard wrote: >> arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >>>>> How about the Sega MegaDrive/Genesis? That ran > a >> 68000 and Z80. >> >> There have been many multi-cpu consoles; the Sega >> Saturn had two Hitachi >> RISC CPUs for core processing, plus a host of othe > r >> stuff for CDROM, >> display, sound... The PlayStation 2 is also >> dual-CPU. The PlayStation 3 >> is a Cell monster, 7 cores you can play with, > > wrong!!! Some places state 9, but the last > *official* CPU diagram I saw has 8 cores. > One main core (slightly larger than the others) > and 7 co-cores. (Does that make sense?) More like, it depends. A standard Cell ASIC has a dual threaded PowerPC 64 core and eight SPU cores. On a Playstation only seven functioning SPU cores are guaranteed/required. So depending on how you count, you can get 8, 9, or 10 cores. I'd go with 9 -> 8 SPU and a dual thread PPC. Mike From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Dec 1 22:27:38 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 22:27:38 -0600 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <200611292344.kATNicxL027839@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200611292344.kATNicxL027839@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <457100BA.2050505@brutman.com> On the old standup arcade games multiple CPUs are common. Williams Defender uses two 6809 CPUs - one just for sound, and one for everything else. Williams Joust is more complicated and uses four 6809s. Mike From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 1 22:39:45 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 21:39:45 -0700 Subject: Corporate genealogy? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Dec 2006 02:10:37 +0000. <20061202021036.GA29252@mail.dcs.warwick.ac.uk> Message-ID: In article <20061202021036.GA29252 at mail.dcs.warwick.ac.uk>, Brian Foley writes: > A friend pointed me at a chart on Wikipedia of some of the mergers that > led to BAE Systems. [...] A nice example, thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Dec 1 21:37:49 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 21:37:49 -0600 Subject: OT: South Pole was: Re: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: <200611160418.kAG4IN5o048363@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611160418.kAG4IN5o048363@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 22:18 -0600 11/15/06, Sridhar wrote: >90 degrees south always points to the South Pole. It doesn't always >point to the same place, though. The precession of the Earth's >rotational axis causes the location of all coordinates on the Earth's >surface to shift by a small amount all the time. It's most easily >noticed at the poles. Barring smaller corrections of much shorter >period and magnitude, the Earth's axial precession occurs on a period of >about 26,000 years. All true, but partially unconnected and somewhat oversimplified. Earth's angular momentum vector precesses about the normal to the ecliptic (the plane of Earth's orbit) in a cone with half-angle 23.5 (or so) degrees and with a period of 26,000 years. This is directly driven by the lunar and solar tidal torque on the equatorial bulge of the Earth, which is in turn caused by the Earth's rotation. For a rigid body, this could happen without any change in the location of the "pole" as seen on the surface of the body. Independent of that (or of any external torque), the point at which the Earth's angular velocity (not momentum) vector intersects the surface, which is the instantaneous pole, wanders around on the surface. This is due to several things. One is the fact that the angular momentum and angular velocity may not be perfectly aligned. (Even a rigid body will do this if it is not spun along either its major or minor principle axis of inertia. This is the "polhode" motion of a freely rotating body as seen from the body.) Another is the fact that the Earth is continually rearranging its mass distribution by rainfall, earthquakes, ice-sheet melting, etc. etc., thus moving its principle axes of inertia around and causing the first condition to apply. (These mass redistributions are in turn driven primarily by the effects of incoming solar radiation, but this is an indirect effect of the sun on the system.) Another cause is due to the fact that the "solid" Earth is really a composite system, with many different solid and liquid components, many of which may be rotating with respect to one another and causing various interactions. I think I will stop there, acknowledging that I'm still oversimplifying. I will however add that I at one point in the early 1980's wrote a program in Fortran on a PDP-11 to display the current and predicted (by the IERS) Earth instantaneous pole coordinates on a Tektronix 4025 graphics terminal, erasing and re-drawing the predicted pole with every new update of the current pole. It was interesting to see how consistently off the predictions were. Sorry for the delayed-gratification nature of this post; I'm just getting back from 2 weeks' vacation. -- Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) 210-379-4635 Dwarf Phone, 210-522-6025 Office Phone From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 1 23:14:21 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 21:14:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries Message-ID: <693592.32332.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> someone set me strait if Im way off - is an emulator, like MAME in essence a parser essentially? I bet theres probably more to it then that though... --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > On the old standup arcade games multiple CPUs are common. > > Williams Defender uses two 6809 CPUs - one just for sound, and one for > everything else. > > Williams Joust is more complicated and uses four 6809s. > > > > Mike > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From evan at snarc.net Fri Dec 1 23:30:51 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 00:30:51 -0500 Subject: TI CC40 In-Reply-To: <002901c715b0$a17f4b50$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <000001c715d3$0882efb0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Nevermind. It's sold! -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:25 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: TI CC40 I also have one that's new-in-box and it's most definitely for sale. Cash preferred but interesting trades considered. - Evan -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser [mailto:spectre at floodgap.com] Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 3:09 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: TI CC40 > Am I imagining things or was there a discussion very recently about > Texas Instruments' little baby? Whilst browsing ebay uk last week I > found one that was NIB so naturally I had to have it :) The seller > works 5 minutes from my weekend home so it was even better. Fun little units -- too bad mass storage on them is pretty much a loss. If only that wafertape drive had gotten more reliable or widely produced ... I have a CC40 and the printer and RS-232. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. -- Jack Paar ---------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 2 00:17:54 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006 22:17:54 -0800 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries Message-ID: > Williams Defender uses two 6809 CPUs - one just for sound, and one for > everything else. > > Williams Joust is more complicated and uses four > 6809s. nope.. Defender and Joust both have a 6809 and a 6808 for sound http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=598&gid=1044 From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 00:39:05 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 01:39:05 -0500 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why wouldn't somebody make their own computer board that pools RCA1802, TMS9900, 6800, 6809, 8085, 6502, z80, 8086, z8000, 68000 ... all together. It shouldn't be too difficult. Then this discuss will be settled once and for ever. vax, 9000 From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 00:39:24 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 01:39:24 -0500 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: sorry I mean discussion On 12/2/06, 9000 VAX wrote: > > Why wouldn't somebody make their own computer board that pools RCA1802, > TMS9900, 6800, 6809, 8085, 6502, z80, 8086, z8000, 68000 ... all together. > It shouldn't be too difficult. Then this discuss will be settled once and > for ever. > > vax, 9000 > From glenatacme at aol.com Fri Dec 1 14:12:59 2006 From: glenatacme at aol.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2006 15:12:59 -0500 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <455213B5.4090402@yahoo.com> References: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> <455213B5.4090402@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> Al Hartman wrote: > My friend and I have come across a large stock of working ZX-81 > computers that are missing keyboards. And a stock of others with bad > keyboards. > > These are a lot from a former Sinclair Repair Center. > > We'd like to get these working 100% again for sale along with the > remainder of the ZX-81 kits from Zebra Systems. > > BTW... Stewart only has a couple hundred left, and when they're gone... > that's it! > > Does anyone know of a source for these keyboards, or know of a company > that could make them up? Al -- At this late date it would probably be easier to design and build an interface so that a common PS/2-type keyboard could be used, along with some self-adhesive key-top stickers. Glen 0/0 From wizard at voyager.net Sat Dec 2 04:15:53 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 05:15:53 -0500 Subject: OT: South Pole was: Re: VCF 9 (Jay West) & (Jules Richardson) In-Reply-To: References: <200611160418.kAG4IN5o048363@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1165054553.6827.9.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-12-01 at 21:37 -0600, Mark Tapley wrote: > At 22:18 -0600 11/15/06, Sridhar wrote: > . . . indirect effect of the sun on the system.) > Another cause is due to the fact that the "solid" Earth > is really a composite system, with many different solid > and liquid components, many of which may be rotating > with respect to one another and causing various > interactions. When speaking of global phenomena, I like to look at the "big picture," as it were. And the big picture is that the object most of us here would recognize as most similar to planet earth is a ball of solder with a scum of rosin remains and dust floating on the surface. Make the molten part liquid iron, and the scum granite, and you have an accurate (within engineering tolerances) scale model of the planet. Float it in vacuum for a few billion years, and see what develops. > I think I will stop there, acknowledging that > I'm still oversimplifying. > . . . > Sorry for the delayed-gratification nature of this post; I'm > just getting back from 2 weeks' vacation. Okay... It's good to know you are back -- some of the most recent deliveries of dwarfs had some samples that were out-of-tolerance. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From billdeg at degnanco.com Sat Dec 2 08:38:02 2006 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 09:38:02 -0500 Subject: HP Time-Shared Basic Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20061202093406.032f0e40@mail.degnanco.net> I was recenlty given a copy of the "A Quick Reference to HP Time-Shared BASIC" Printed 9/1969. It's a pamphlet-sized doc. If anyone would like a copy and it does not already exist on the Internet I will make a PDF and put it up on my web site. The system associated with the guide is the Hewlet-Packard 2000A. Bill D From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 2 09:18:00 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 10:18:00 -0500 Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 1, 2006, at 12:30 PM, Richard wrote: > A guy on ebay is selling something that looks suspiciously like the > monitor portion of a terminal, but he is calling it a Hazeltine > 'computer'. I asked him if it was a terminal and he responded saying: > > "Its a computer, not a monitor." > > Either he didn't understand my question (I didn't ask if it was a > monitor, I asked if it was a terminal) or he had a brain-fart and > typed "monitor" instead of terminal in his reply. > > The item is #300053801044 and has a detail photo of the model plate > where it says model 1DTD155463. On the lower left rear is what looks > suspiciously like two DB-25 style connectors, presumably one for the > host and one for a printer. This is the monitor half of a Hazeltine Esprit terminal. I had one on my desk for many years; it is hands-down the best terminal that I have EVER used. I'd just about kill for one now, but I've not been able to find one. Sadly, this one is useless because the keyboard is missing. *sniffle* -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 2 09:23:17 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 10:23:17 -0500 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: <4570774B.4020308@bitsavers.org> References: <4570774B.4020308@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Dec 1, 2006, at 1:41 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > The trend in the past 10 years to produce subscription devices that > depend on a host run by a company that no longer exists (Richochet, > Catapult, Kerbango, ...) is another annoyance. There's an easy way to make that approach extinct: Educate people on the evils of such nonsense and convince them not to buy such products. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 2 09:27:55 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 10:27:55 -0500 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 1, 2006, at 12:26 PM, Richard wrote: > Someone asked me in private email why I'd want to do this -- I > consider the source code just as an important historical artifact as > the compiled binaries and physical hardware. For the same reason that > people want schematics for vintage hardware, having source code for > vintage software is also useful. Not only useful, but highly educational. A lot of this sort of stuff was written back in the days when writing software actually took some *skills*. Now any kid with a Windows box can slap together an application in a few hours. Sure, it'll eat hundreds of megabytes of RAM, be slower than pissing tar, and probably crash a lot, but then that seems to describe some of the world's most widely deployed software, so who's counting? Back in the early days of computing, some of the *smartest people on the planet* worked on this stuff. Now, though, every drooling moron who thinks he can make more money writing Windows apps than flipping burgers can pirate a copy of Microsoft's Visual Whatever-it- is-this-week garbage and is suddenly a "programmer". -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 2 09:35:20 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 10:35:20 -0500 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> References: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> <455213B5.4090402@yahoo.com> <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> Message-ID: On Dec 1, 2006, at 3:12 PM, Glen Goodwin wrote: >> My friend and I have come across a large stock of working ZX-81 >> computers that are missing keyboards. And a stock of others with >> bad keyboards. >> These are a lot from a former Sinclair Repair Center. >> We'd like to get these working 100% again for sale along with the >> remainder of the ZX-81 kits from Zebra Systems. >> BTW... Stewart only has a couple hundred left, and when they're >> gone... that's it! >> Does anyone know of a source for these keyboards, or know of a >> company that could make them up? > > At this late date it would probably be easier to design > and build an interface so that a common PS/2-type keyboard > could be used, along with some self-adhesive key-top stickers. This is very true of course...but (apparently I missed Al Hartman's earlier message about this) I know of a company that can make these keyboards. A few years ago, I designed a commercial product which had a membrane keyboard. A few photos of it in development (with those membrane keyboards) can be seen at: http://www.neurotica.com/albums/qyx/ I don't recall the name of the company that did the keyboards, but I can dig it up from my notes if desired. They are here in Florida, and I recall them having been highly capable and easy to work with. We can probably make exact ZX81/TS1000 keyboard replicas through that company. I sure wouldn't mind getting ahold of one or two of those ZX81 kits. Will someone be making them available at some point? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Dec 2 05:39:59 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 11:39:59 +0000 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> References: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> <455213B5.4090402@yahoo.com> <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> Message-ID: <4571660F.2000602@gjcp.net> Glen Goodwin wrote: > Al Hartman wrote: >> My friend and I have come across a large stock of working ZX-81 >> computers that are missing keyboards. And a stock of others with bad >> keyboards. >> >> These are a lot from a former Sinclair Repair Center. >> >> We'd like to get these working 100% again for sale along with the >> remainder of the ZX-81 kits from Zebra Systems. >> >> BTW... Stewart only has a couple hundred left, and when they're >> gone... that's it! >> >> Does anyone know of a source for these keyboards, or know of a company >> that could make them up? > > Al -- > > At this late date it would probably be easier to design > and build an interface so that a common PS/2-type keyboard > could be used, along with some self-adhesive key-top stickers. Seems like overkill - the interface would need more processor power than the ZX81, most likely. There *must* be a company that makes membrane keyboards, and will do a shortish run. I'd certainly donate a working-ish keyboard to get some made up... As an aside, I believe a ZX Spectrum membrane is "close enough" if you extend one of the sockets so it reaches. Gordon. From modi029 at terra.com.br Sat Dec 2 07:03:31 2006 From: modi029 at terra.com.br (modi029) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 10:03:31 -0300 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: Hi Henry, I'm looking for Hardware documentation on rtVAX1000 and found your note on the net. Do you know where can I found such info? Kind regards, Izo Camacho. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 2 09:52:16 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 10:52:16 -0500 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <4571660F.2000602@gjcp.net> References: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> <455213B5.4090402@yahoo.com> <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> <4571660F.2000602@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <6BAB01A1-DCF4-4BCA-B8A7-25A1DD5B8F81@neurotica.com> On Dec 2, 2006, at 6:39 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> At this late date it would probably be easier to design >> and build an interface so that a common PS/2-type keyboard >> could be used, along with some self-adhesive key-top stickers. > > Seems like overkill - the interface would need more processor power > than the ZX81, most likely. Nah, not even close. In the unit I mentioned in my other message on this topic, the keyboard encoder processor (which also did a bunch of other housekeeping) was a PIC16C65B clocked at 32KHz. (no typo there) > There *must* be a company that makes membrane keyboards, and will > do a shortish run. I'd certainly donate a working-ish keyboard to > get some made up... Yup, I mentioned one in my other message. We can get this done. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 2 10:00:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 09:00:43 -0700 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Dec 2006 10:27:55 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Dave McGuire writes: > Back in the early days of computing, some of the *smartest people > on the planet* worked on this stuff. Now, though, every drooling > moron who thinks he can make more money writing Windows apps than > flipping burgers can pirate a copy of Microsoft's Visual Whatever-it- > is-this-week garbage and is suddenly a "programmer". The most recent iteration of their development environment is permanently free :-). So there's no need to pirate Microsoft's Visual Whatever-it-is-this-week. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 2 10:02:47 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 09:02:47 -0700 Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Dec 2006 10:18:00 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Dave McGuire writes: > [...] Sadly, this one is useless because the > keyboard is missing. Only if you don't have a keyboard :-). For instance, I just purchased another Megatek Whizzard *base* sans keyboard and monitor so that I'd have a spare for the Whizzard I purchased last year. To most people it would be worthless because it doesn't have the keyboard (which is a very interesting giant keyboard :-) or monitor, but to me its useful as a source of spares. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Dec 2 10:26:13 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 10:26:13 -0600 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4571A925.30101@brutman.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > Williams Defender uses two 6809 CPUs - one just for > sound, and one for > > everything else. > > > > Williams Joust is more complicated and uses four > > 6809s. > > nope.. > > Defender and Joust both have a 6809 and a 6808 for sound > > http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=598&gid=1044 > > > > My goof .. just 2 CPUs on the Joust. But I had to open the cabinet and count for myself. :-) www.klov.com has schematics posted for the Joust in PDF format if anybody is interested. A bit hard to read, but very nice to find online anyway. Mike From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 2 10:35:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 08:35:51 -0800 Subject: Hazeltine 'computer'? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <45713AE7.4458.1882C9EF@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Dec 2006 at 10:18, Dave McGuire wrote: > This is the monitor half of a Hazeltine Esprit terminal. I had > one on my desk for many years; it is hands-down the best terminal > that I have EVER used. I'd just about kill for one now, but I've not > been able to find one. Sadly, this one is useless because the > keyboard is missing. I'm not sure if I'm ready to retreat from the "stick a CPU/floppy PCB into a terminal" notion on this one yet. The seller seems to be pretty sure that this was a computer, not just a terminal. If I have time this weekend (doubtful, but I can dream), I'll dig out the Hazeltine sample floppy and see what it says about what machine it might have been associated with. Cheers, Chuck From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 11:15:45 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 18:15:45 +0100 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165079746.30774.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-10-30 at 15:44 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > The whole line of > > 20 years of IBM muscle computers is basically gone. The same is true > > for the Burroughs and Univac machines of the same era. > > It is MUCH worse for Burroughs and Univac. IBM was sold in such high numbers > that the probability of some surviving was higher. Both Burroughs and Univac > had an active "scorched earth" policies for systems in the field to keep > them out of the hands of resellers. I don't know of any Burroughs 5xxx/6xxx > systems or Univac 1100's that still exist. There *is* a complete UNIVAC 1108 with a FASTRAND II and some other goodies preserved - of all places - in the Industrial Worker's museum, which used to be a hydroelectric plant, (one of the first) in Norway. It is in the middle of freakin' nowhere - a stone's throw from Vemork - I believe the distance between me and the VCFeu is actually shorter than the one to this machine. It is in very good condition, however. The machine was used at NTH, now NTNU, and successor to this machine, an 1100/*mumble*, was actually dumped to sea, for some environmental reason(!). Burroughs, I have seen nothing of, however. I have also heard of some weird story about a rather large company the museum of sci and tech have been talking to, which turned down a fairly major scorched-earth-style payback, and are still storing their IBM mainframe in a warehouse. I am not sure about the model name. Somehow, I keep thinking it ends in a "1"... series/1? Something like that. I believe it isn't the minicomputer with a similar name. From what I've heard, it's a bona fide mainframe. > There is also a disproportionate number of large scientific computers that > have survived vs business systems. There much fewer in CHM's collection. I recently discovered a UNIVAC 9400 and 9300 in the museum of telecommunications' warehouse here in Norway. These are machines replicating the System/360 instruction set (of the mod. 30 and 20, respectively). The 9300, I don't currently know much about, but speaking for the 9400, the card punch, card reader, and line printer have been preserved. They seem in excellent condition. -Tore From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 2 11:38:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 09:38:48 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <1165079746.30774.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: , <1165079746.30774.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <457149A8.13759.18BC6C3C@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Dec 2006 at 18:15, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > I recently discovered a UNIVAC 9400 and 9300 in the museum of > telecommunications' warehouse here in Norway. These are machines > replicating the System/360 instruction set (of the mod. 30 and 20, > respectively). The 9300, I don't currently know much about, but speaking > for the 9400, the card punch, card reader, and line printer have been > preserved. They seem in excellent condition. Aren't the 9000-series Univacs not home-grown products, but rather the follow-on result of the RCA Spectra acquisition by Univac? IIRC, they're nothing like the 1100-series at all. Cheers, Chuck From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 11:50:11 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 18:50:11 +0100 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <457149A8.13759.18BC6C3C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1165079746.30774.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> <457149A8.13759.18BC6C3C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1165081811.30774.103.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-12-02 at 09:38 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Dec 2006 at 18:15, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > > > I recently discovered a UNIVAC 9400 and 9300 in the museum of > > telecommunications' warehouse here in Norway. These are machines > > replicating the System/360 instruction set (of the mod. 30 and 20, > > respectively). The 9300, I don't currently know much about, but speaking > > for the 9400, the card punch, card reader, and line printer have been > > preserved. They seem in excellent condition. > > Aren't the 9000-series Univacs not home-grown products, but rather > the follow-on result of the RCA Spectra acquisition by Univac? http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/panint.htm is an interesting read. The 9300 was certainly an internal, pre-Spectra job. Also, the 9400 was less compatible than the Spectra series, and probably not based on it. > IIRC, > they're nothing like the 1100-series at all. Nope - as I said - they're S/360... I guess "clones" might be the expression. Still very beautiful machine. The front panel is very unique in that by twisting knobs to the right of the blinkenlights labels, you actually mechanically turn a "label cylinder" with different labels, and presumably the lights would change function with it. I haven't seen the 1108 in person yet, but I would very much like to. -Tore From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Dec 2 11:53:56 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 17:53:56 -0000 (GMT) Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> <455213B5.4090402@yahoo.com> <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> Message-ID: <3856.192.168.0.3.1165082036.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Sat, December 2, 2006 15:35, Dave McGuire wrote: > I sure wouldn't mind getting ahold of one or two of those ZX81 > kits. Will someone be making them available at some point? Aren't they still available from Stuart at Zebra systems? IIRC he's down to his last 200-odd. There must be people your side of the pond that has a kit stashed away that can lend you the keyboard membrane, hell, I've got broken ZX81s here that you can have the membrane from to use as a basis for a new one....... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 11:55:45 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 18:55:45 +0100 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165082146.30774.111.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-10-31 at 18:56 +0000, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 31/10/06 07:50, "Andreas Holz" wrote: > > > Only about 13Years old, but quite large: > > > > http://convex.topinform.de/c38/images/ > > Don't you just hate it when decommissioners cut the power cables like that! > Is the system still in bits or has it been reassembled? The (possibly incomplete and very badly treated) Convex C200 (is it supposed to be a single rack? It's not supposed to be upside-down, is it?) belonging to the Norwegian Computer History Society, NODAF, has had the cable cut in much the same way, so I think it was a relatively common thing. -Tore From marvin at rain.org Sat Dec 2 12:23:00 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 10:23:00 -0800 Subject: ClassicCmp Awareness Message-ID: <4571C484.708C0B4C@rain.org> I've been selling some stuff on ebay and have found a number of people who aren't aware that this listserver exists. Basically, I'm referring them to the ClassicCmp website and they can view the archives and decide if they want to join. It was eyeopening to see that people who have a big interest in this stuff weren't aware of this listserver! I wonder if a link to the Vintage Computer Marketplace would be appropriate to put on the ClassicCmp home page? From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 13:28:20 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 20:28:20 +0100 Subject: In response to overwhelming demand... In-Reply-To: <200606262327360963.17AD1151@10.0.0.252> References: <004a01c68eb3$3acf4470$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <200606270445.AAA11774@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <44A0C06B.1030207@gmail.com> <200606262327360963.17AD1151@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <1165087700.30774.157.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-06-26 at 23:27 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6/27/2006 at 1:21 AM Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > >Indeed. I would consider only green-on-black to be traditional. > > I had a brief fling with orange-on-black (somehow called "amber"). > > The recent talk about terminals reminded me of a terminal I evaluated > sometime around 1979. I think it was by Tandberg, but I could be > wrong--all I remember is that it was of Swedish manufacture. HEY!! The Tandberg is 100% NORWEGIAN!! :) The Tandberg - I think legacy might be the word - is held in extremely high regard by most Norwegians, and its founder Vebj?rn Tandberg as something of an engineer's hero. The company has a quite interesting history. Tandberg started off as Tandberg Radiofabriker, started by a brilliant civil engineer by the name of Vebj?rn Tandberg. Tandberg made a string of innovative, high-quality radios (The Huldra and S?lvsuper lines are to this day held in very high regard) and (up until 1971 purely analog audio) reel/cassette tape decks, and in the early 70s started a subsidiary, Tandberg Data, tasked with production of computer equipment. Vebj?rn Tandberg was a pioneer in improving the labour conditions of his workforce from the 1930s through the 1950s, often being decades ahead of the rest of the industry. In 1972, Tandberg and Radionette, the other major Norwegian radio manufacturer, was purchased by V. Tandberg, after RadioNette had started a downward spiral into brankruptcy. In 1978, Tandberg entered bankruptcy protection. Vebj?rn recieved a letter stating that he was not welcome on the premises. On October 30th, Vebj?rn committed suicide, and on the 14th of December the company is declared bankrupt. In 1979, large parts of Tandberg were swallowed by Norsk Data - practically at government gunpoint. ND management were optimistic, and expecting the company to show a profit by 1980. Already halfway into 1980, it was very apparent that this was not to be. The company was separated back out, and ND continued to grow until 1987. both http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vebj?rn_Tandberg and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandberg may be worth reading. > Probably one > of the nicest terminals I'd ever seen. Agreed. > Everything on it was ergonomically > engineered. The screen could be positioned any way you could imagine; the > keytops were colored according to function And the keyboard is extremely ergonomic, too. The keyboard has a really beautiful feel to it. If I could plug a TDV-2200 keyboard into my PC, I would in an instant! Also, the refresh rate is very high. Since I have an abundant supply of these, including broken ones, I some day want to put a modern motherboard in there and have a very very fast terminal. Maybe even somehow make it show an X display. > and the contrast of the display > was controlled. Mine have problems with brightness/contrast. One has a very bright background, and one has a very very weak video signal. > The other thing I recall is that it was one of the most > expensive terminals I'd ever run across. The Volvo of terminals. Yeah. To make matters worse, their main OEM dealer Norsk Data, when selling the terminals, marked them up at least 20 percent when selling them. As one customer remarked - it was a very expensive "Norsk Data" sticker... > Anyone care to fill me in on what the thing was--and if anyone ever used > them. Tandberg sticks in my mind because the same salesman dropped off a 9 > track tape drive for evaluation that was definitely a Tandberg. >From your description I'm going to guess that you're talking about a TDV-2200 series, most likely the TDV-2215. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TDV-2200 (Picture taken by me) Here is a picture of one in a "complete system" from an annual report: http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/nd560-unproc.jpeg http://nodaf.no/images/f/f0/00013.jpg NODAF has quite a lot of them. The smaller, lighter-coloured terminal with the Mycron label is the successor TDV-1200, which was a cheaper, and much later (6 or 7 years) terminal. It was more compatible with the ANSI standard. It was white-on-black or black-on-white, with a very high refresh rate. http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/nodaf/gallery/kp-lager/plan9/00010.jpg This is the predecessor, the TDV-2115. Less spectacular, but nonetheless a nice all-round VDU for its day. This is closer to 1973-75. In this case, Norsk Data did more than add a sticker. They painted the case in the same low-key, lovely SCREAMING ORANGE!! they did with the rest of their original and OEM equipment between around '71 and '79. :) The CRT was yellow-on-black. -Tore From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 13:50:49 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 14:50:49 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <1165079746.30774.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1165079746.30774.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: > I recently discovered a UNIVAC 9400 and 9300 in the museum of > telecommunications' warehouse here in Norway. These are machines > replicating the System/360 instruction set (of the mod. 30 and 20, > respectively). The 9300, I don't currently know much about, but speaking > for the 9400, the card punch, card reader, and line printer have been > preserved. They seem in excellent condition. This is good to know. I would like to know where any and all surviving 9300 systems are. Probably on my next Westward trip in May, bitsavers will be getting a zillion 9300 cards (assemblers, linkers, and applications) to read and archived for the common good. All we need now is for someone with 9300 maintenance docs to get over to bitsavers also for the common good. -- Will From charlesmorris at hughes.net Sat Dec 2 13:52:27 2006 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 14:52:27 -0500 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <200612021801.kB2I18hT072174@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612021801.kB2I18hT072174@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <69m3n2hnpbgi7mp7q91nq77ubhm4d1r5f7@4ax.com> On Sat, 2 Dec 2006 12:01:14 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >>> Does anyone know of a source for these keyboards, or know of a >>> company that could make them up? > This is very true of course...but (apparently I missed Al >Hartman's earlier message about this) I know of a company that can >make these keyboards. I have a ZX81 that needs a new keyboard too... the "tail" that connects to the board is trashed. Put me down to buy one if this should actually happen... thanks Charles From mtapley at swri.edu Sat Dec 2 14:00:18 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 14:00:18 -0600 Subject: OT: Dwarf Engineer Message-ID: At 12:00 -0600 12/2/06, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Okay... It's good to know you are back -- some of the most recent >deliveries of dwarfs had some samples that were out-of-tolerance. > :-) actually, the .sig is a slam at the International Astronomical Union for demoting Pluto from "planet" to "Dwarf planet" because it "hasn't cleared its neighborhood". I'm working on a spacecraft headed for Pluto (New Horizons), so I'm peeved. ObCC: since the hardware will take more than 10 years between construction and flyby at Pluto, it'll be classic before it's ever used for its designed purpose. (Well, there is a Jupiter flyby...) This is a great opportunity to thank everyone on the classic-computer list for the accumulated wisdom I've gleaned over the years about what works and what doesn't in keeping old systems running. A lot of what I learned here went into the Longevity Plan for New Horizons. Many and diverse thanks to all! -- Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) 210-379-4635 Dwarf Phone, 210-522-6025 Office Phone From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 2 14:12:33 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 12:12:33 -0800 Subject: resonable config 11/34 on eBay Message-ID: <4571DE31.9040209@bitsavers.org> 280054268630 350 bin with no bids in Ontario. From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 15:49:26 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 22:49:26 +0100 Subject: Is there a Prime Computer Emulator? In-Reply-To: <200606072040.k57Ke1ZV085942@lots.reanimators.org> References: <20060607145025.GA4562@RawFedDogs.net> <200606071511.k57FBHLp021050@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <200606072040.k57Ke1ZV085942@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <1165096166.30774.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-06-07 at 13:40 -0700, Frank McConnell wrote: > Dennis Boone wrote (after Kevin Monceaux): > > > with classic computer emulators. Anyway, while rewatching it I > > > was thrilled to come across a commercial with the Doctor and Romana > > > advertising a Prime computer. > > > I'd be interested in seeing that commercial if you can put it online > > somewhere. > > You might find it about 2/3 of the way down this page: > > Catching up on list mail... This now 404s. Is there anyone who saved the vids? -Tore From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Dec 2 16:03:36 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 22:03:36 -0000 Subject: UK PAL ==> US NTSC video convertor box? References: <456D5C3E.1020105@yahoo.co.uk>, <001201c713e6$4ddbba40$0200a8c0@p2deskto>, <456FAC17.2070604@yahoo.co.uk> <456F57BD.14624.112377C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <009501c7165d$b7827be0$0200a8c0@p2deskto> From: "Chuck Guzis" > On 30 Nov 2006 at 22:14, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > I wonder what the quality's like? Going PAL -> recoder -> NTSC obviously won't > > be as good as native NTSC device output. Or, to put it another way, is the > > average PCI TV tuner card as good quality as the tuner found in a good TV set? > > ...a silly question occurred to me. Why bother with remodulating? > Why not just drive an RGB monitor with the demodulated output? I use > such an arrangement to view PAL-recoded VHS tapes and resulting color > is much better than local NTSC broadcast quality. > > Cheers, > Chuck There's no reason why you shouldn't put it onto a VGA monitor, except for aesthetics - a vintage home computer looks better on a vintage TV set, much like I try to use period programs when demonstrating the TV sets (I hide the PC under the table). When experimenting, I use a variety of display devices - the console drives a modern 1024x768 TFT monitor, and for the most part, the TV ouput drives a 1970 Sony TV9-90UB monochrome TV, which is dual standard, and will display either 405 or 625 line pictures. I have a Melford monitor which will handle 525 and 625, and use a Tektronix 535A scope (circa 1960), with a type O plug-in for esoteric standards, but when it comes to a demonstration, a 1950's TV set displaying a 1950's program is very impressive. The advantage of the PC method of picture generation is that it gives the maximum possible resolution on a set (assuming a well desinged modulator). Jim. From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Dec 2 10:07:26 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 16:07:26 +0000 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <6BAB01A1-DCF4-4BCA-B8A7-25A1DD5B8F81@neurotica.com> References: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> <455213B5.4090402@yahoo.com> <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> <4571660F.2000602@gjcp.net> <6BAB01A1-DCF4-4BCA-B8A7-25A1DD5B8F81@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4571A4BE.4020600@gjcp.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 2, 2006, at 6:39 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>> At this late date it would probably be easier to design >>> and build an interface so that a common PS/2-type keyboard >>> could be used, along with some self-adhesive key-top stickers. >> >> Seems like overkill - the interface would need more processor power >> than the ZX81, most likely. > > Nah, not even close. In the unit I mentioned in my other message on > this topic, the keyboard encoder processor (which also did a bunch of > other housekeeping) was a PIC16C65B clocked at 32KHz. (no typo there) I don't see that being able to handle talking to a PC keyboard, though. Gordon From kossow at computerhistory.org Sat Dec 2 11:51:03 2006 From: kossow at computerhistory.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 09:51:03 -0800 Subject: Discussion of large systems Message-ID: > Aren't the 9000-series Univacs not home-grown products, but rather > the follow-on result of the RCA Spectra acquisition by Univac? That is the Univac Series 80 The 9000 series is similar but not exactly the same as S360 (a few instructions and the I/O differ). There is a complete 9400 that is trying to be brought back to life in Germany http://www.technikum29.de/en/computer/univac9400.shtm It would also be nice to know what ever happened to Bill Yakowenko's 9200 http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/univac/news.html From bv at norbionics.com Sat Dec 2 12:45:39 2006 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bj=F8rn?=) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 19:45:39 +0100 Subject: UK PAL ==> US NTSC video convertor box? In-Reply-To: <456FAC17.2070604@yahoo.co.uk> References: <456D5C3E.1020105@yahoo.co.uk> <001201c713e6$4ddbba40$0200a8c0@p2deskto> <456FAC17.2070604@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 05:14:15 +0100, Jules Richardson wrote: > Jim Beacon wrote: >> have a look at the MYTHTV LINUX package - the addition of a suitable capture >> card and video out card should do the job. We've got it to do various >> esoteric television standards, for a bit of a taster of what it can do, have >> a look here: >> >> http://www.g1jbg.co.uk/fothtv.htm > > wow - that looks like it'll do the job nicely. I suppose the hardware needed > is at the point where it's almost free these days (and certainly cheaper than > a proprietary converter). Both ATI and nVidia have really good video support these days, and Matrox have of course been in professional equipment for many years. > > I wonder what the quality's like? Going PAL -> recoder -> NTSC obviously won't > be as good as native NTSC device output. Or, to put it another way, is the > average PCI TV tuner card as good quality as the tuner found in a good TV set? The tuners I have seen in TV cards are identical to the ones in TV sets. I suppose the processing after the tunes is what makes the difference, and only a few years ago most PCs were not really up to real-time video processing without glitches. I have a cheap TV- at nywhere which works fine until they switch to DTB/MPEG4 and turn off PAL transmissions next year. Now that PAL and NTSC have been obsoleted by digital TV, most PCs have the processing power needed to process PAL signals... ... > > (Hmm, you've got me thinking that the museum probably needs the reverse of > what I'm trying to do - something that'll take all sorts of formats as input > and output VGA or PAL...) VGA is acceptable for IEA-standard NTSC-M material (which has only 482 active lines and 4.2MHz video bandwidth), and I guess it is acceptable for PAL in many cases even though you want rather higher resolution in order to show all the 574 active lines in a OIRT-standard PAL-D signal with 6MHz video bandwidth. In both cases I think I would opt for a 600x800 display running at 75Hz refresh instead of 60Hz 640x480 VGA. You would get some borders around the picture, but everything would be displayed without any interpolation artifacts. Depending on the goals you want to accomplish, there is also a NTSC version for standard B (625 lines 25 frames/s) and a PAL version for standard M (525 lines 30 frames/s). These standards were used for transatlantic exchange, and in countries like Brazil which had US-style B&W transmissions but opted for PAL for colour. -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 16:17:54 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 23:17:54 +0100 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <456C493E.50900@yahoo.co.uk> References: <381590.42720.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <456C493E.50900@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1165097874.30774.171.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 08:35 -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: > Ahh, I was originally asking after systems with different CPUs though, not > several of the same type - mainly to rule out lots of posts about parallel > machines (as I was curious as to how many manufacturers managed to make a go > of selling 'average' systems with a mixture of CPU types - parallel machines > tend to be in a different league) Throwing in my two ?re: The Norsk Data ND-500 and ND-5000 series. The ND-500 CPU was a card rack to itself, the ND-5000 was crunched together on a VLSI-packed modular PCB sandwich. The ND-500 ran a very minimal OS called the "Swapper", and had a microcode which was loaded by the ND-100. The ND-100 ran the OS (SINTRAN III/VSX) and a lot of applications, while programs written for the 500 side would be loaded into the dual-ported memory by the 100. The 5000 was a reimplementation of the 500 into VLSI gate arrays. http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/nd560-unproc.jpeg http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/nd/nd-5000/ The latter is a ND-5700 - you can tell by the three layers - with the cache and some of the decoding/pipelining units, but without the fourth layer, the IDAC, AKA the "Booster". (a single board which covered most of the third layer. Added cache and handled in hardware certain addressing modes that the 5700 and below handled in microcode) -Tore From alhartman at yahoo.com Sat Dec 2 16:33:50 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 17:33:50 -0500 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <200612021800.kB2I0H3D072139@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612021800.kB2I0H3D072139@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4571FF4E.4040208@yahoo.com> I'd like to pursue this. My partner is checking into a company he found as well. We have plenty of old keyboards which have breaks in the tracks due to age, which can be used as models. He is tearing one apart to scan in for artwork. We'll have to differentiate the reproductions from originals in some way, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. As for ZX-81 Kits, Stewart is still selling them at www.zebrasystems.com Al Phila, PA > This is very true of course...but (apparently I missed Al > Hartman's earlier message about this) I know of a company that can > make these keyboards. A few years ago, I designed a commercial > product which had a membrane keyboard. A few photos of it in > development (with those membrane keyboards) can be seen at: > > http://www.neurotica.com/albums/qyx/ > > I don't recall the name of the company that did the keyboards, but > I can dig it up from my notes if desired. They are here in Florida, > and I recall them having been highly capable and easy to work with. > We can probably make exact ZX81/TS1000 keyboard replicas through that > company. > > I sure wouldn't mind getting ahold of one or two of those ZX81 > kits. Will someone be making them available at some point? > > -Dave > > -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 16:53:52 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 23:53:52 +0100 Subject: New bounty on manuals ($$$) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165100032.30774.179.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-11-27 at 12:27 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I'm offering a bounty on the following manuals: > > Convex Architecture Reference Manual I have the Convex Assembly Language Reference Manual for the C-series. I possibly have it in loose-sheet format too, for scanning. Is that relevant? The book explains the instructions, addressing modes, speeds, registers, etc, for the C100, C200, C3200, C3400, and C3800, at first glance. It makes mention in the Associated Documents of the Arch Ref Man for the C series (order number DHW-300). I can try to keep an eye out for these docs the next time I go to the warehouse, if it is of interest. I'm very sorry that we couldn't meet up in the Bay Area. I should have dispensed my time a bit better there! Still, saw CHM, saw SF. I enjoyed myself. :) -Tore From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 17:02:31 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 00:02:31 +0100 Subject: New bounty on manuals ($$$) In-Reply-To: <1165100032.30774.179.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1165100032.30774.179.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1165100551.30774.181.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-12-02 at 23:53 +0100, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > On Mon, 2006-11-27 at 12:27 -0800, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I'm offering a bounty on the following manuals > I have I apologize, that was of course meant to go off-list... -Tore From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 2 17:08:31 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 15:08:31 -0800 Subject: In response to overwhelming demand... In-Reply-To: <1165087700.30774.157.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <004a01c68eb3$3acf4470$6401a8c0@DESKTOP>, <200606262327360963.17AD1151@10.0.0.252>, <1165087700.30774.157.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <457196EF.6442.19EA4F83@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Dec 2006 at 20:28, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > HEY!! > > The Tandberg is 100% NORWEGIAN!! :) Sorry, I had Volvo on the brain. I would have compared it to a Norwegian-made auto, but I don't know of any offhand. :) > Yeah. To make matters worse, their main OEM dealer Norsk Data, when > selling the terminals, marked them up at least 20 percent when selling > them. As one customer remarked - it was a very expensive "Norsk Data" > sticker... > > > Anyone care to fill me in on what the thing was--and if anyone ever used > > them. Tandberg sticks in my mind because the same salesman dropped off a 9 > > track tape drive for evaluation that was definitely a Tandberg. > > >From your description I'm going to guess that you're talking about a > TDV-2200 series, most likely the TDV-2215. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TDV-2200 (Picture taken by me) Looks very close, except I think the display on mine was on a moveable arm support. We also received a tabletop 9-track tape drive at about the same time. Not an autoloader per se, but reel-to-reel in a vertical plane. The interface was very simple--I was able to use a single 8255 to talk to the drive (i.e., it wasn't a Pertec interface). But again, far, far too expensive. :( Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 2 17:18:50 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 16:18:50 -0700 Subject: Is there a Prime Computer Emulator? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Dec 2006 22:49:26 +0100. <1165096166.30774.160.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: In article <1165096166.30774.160.camel at localhost.localdomain>, Tore Sinding Bekkedal writes: > > You might find it about 2/3 of the way down this page: > > > > Catching up on list mail... This now 404s. Is there anyone who saved the > vids? had the text in the wayback machine, but not the images :-(. "Prime Computers Australia, 1979-80 A series of computer hardware commercials made for Australian TV, featuring husband and wife celebrity team Tom Baker and Lalla Ward. Funny - even if you don't speak seven languages and up to five protocols..." -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 17:28:28 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 00:28:28 +0100 Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165102108.30774.190.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-06-14 at 20:24 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > I imagine that many paper suppliers ought to be able > > to provide tape on a custom basis, given a > > sufficiently large order, but I was led to believe > > that the specs for such tape as laid out in the > > relevant standards were a bit difficult to fulfil, > > particularly for oiled tape. > > I would think that it should not be too impossible to make your own if the > supply gets really short. I think that if this ever happened, an alternative might very well be to just pool together as a bunch of hobbyists and order paper tapes custom-made? I think paper mills have catered to smaller markets in the past... -Tore From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 2 17:33:47 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 16:33:47 -0700 Subject: OT: Dwarf Engineer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45720D5B.1020907@jetnet.ab.ca> Mark Tapley wrote: > ObCC: since the hardware will take more than 10 years between > construction and flyby at Pluto, it'll be classic before it's ever used > for its designed purpose. (Well, there is a Jupiter flyby...) > > This is a great opportunity to thank everyone on the classic-computer > list for the accumulated wisdom I've gleaned over the years about what > works and what doesn't in keeping old systems running. A lot of what I > learned here went into the Longevity Plan for New Horizons. Many and > diverse thanks to all! I take it that all the data returned uses well docmented formats on paper? I got thinking that some data was lost from early 1970's because nobody could un-encode the mag tapes. It is a good thing this about computers, I was expecting D&D type dwarfs. Ben alias woodelf. PS. I still have to grumble at the US and the captive politics that don't permit free access to space. Is the project pluto project classified? The whole purpose of knowlage is that is you can learn from mistakes. The biggest mistake I see off hand is this is *NOT* a long range plan. Send me all the design data I am sure to honest comments about the design. I am no egg-head but even I can see that the problem still stems from the fact the *EARTH* has no re-usable (unmanned) cargo shuttle to space. The launch 'rocket' still I suspect limits you to '60's payloads thus I don't see much of a change in what kind of mission to the moon & planets are used. I suspect you all fight over this years budget, and nothing gets built except what the dictator of budget feels is most important for the ego of the USA. Reusable techology I belive is the way to with any space-program with a long range goal. This starts with rocket fuel and ends with electronic components since someday one must depend on something other than the earth for repair and replacement parts. Now that the probe to pluto is mostly built, why not try a design using 1970's ideas like the movie 2001 and see just where NASA has made a wrong turn in single mission projects. From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Dec 2 17:38:40 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 17:38:40 -0600 (CST) Subject: OT: Dwarf Engineer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Mark Tapley wrote: > At 12:00 -0600 12/2/06, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> Okay... It's good to know you are back -- some of the most recent >> deliveries of dwarfs had some samples that were out-of-tolerance. >> > > :-) actually, the .sig is a slam at the International Astronomical Union for > demoting Pluto from "planet" to "Dwarf planet" because it "hasn't cleared its > neighborhood". I'm working on a spacecraft headed for Pluto (New Horizons), > so I'm peeved. > > -- > Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer > (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) And here I thought the .sig was something to the effect of you hadn't yet created a large enough "bang" to scare away any remaining neighborhood residents, thus you were still considered a 'dwarf' engineer ;) -Toth From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Dec 2 17:54:02 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 15:54:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 In-Reply-To: <1165102108.30774.190.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1165102108.30774.190.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Dec 2006, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > On Wed, 2006-06-14 at 20:24 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > > I imagine that many paper suppliers ought to be able > > > to provide tape on a custom basis, given a > > > sufficiently large order, but I was led to believe > > > that the specs for such tape as laid out in the > > > relevant standards were a bit difficult to fulfil, > > > particularly for oiled tape. > > > > I would think that it should not be too impossible to make your own if the > > supply gets really short. > > I think that if this ever happened, an alternative might very well be to > just pool together as a bunch of hobbyists and order paper tapes > custom-made? I think paper mills have catered to smaller markets in the > past... Back in June or whenever it was when this thread was fresh, somone suggested CNC supply companies. They have brand-new paper tape: oiled and not, mylar, and assorted colors. However, it's all on reels. How would someone get new fanfold paper? Maybe someone could make a machine to decurl and fanfold reeled tape. Sidenote: how hard would it be to make a paper tape reader and punch from scratch? The idea is to have a lightweight unit for playing with my SBC6120 and perhaps Altair reissue/clone (if and when I get one). -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 2 17:16:29 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 23:16:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 2, 6 10:27:55 am Message-ID: > > On Dec 1, 2006, at 12:26 PM, Richard wrote: > > Someone asked me in private email why I'd want to do this -- I > > consider the source code just as an important historical artifact as > > the compiled binaries and physical hardware. For the same reason that > > people want schematics for vintage hardware, having source code for > > vintage software is also useful. > > Not only useful, but highly educational. A lot of this sort of I would argue software sources are more educational than useful (not that education is not a very important 'use' :-)). I like scheamtics of old computers for 2 reasons, firstly to learn how they worked, and secondly to be able to repair them if something failes. Only the first is really applicable to software, software doesn't fail in the same sense that hardware can. FWIW, even though I don't consdier myself to be a programmer, I do like reading source listings, the lower the level the better. I have certainly read through a fair number of microcode sources in my time... -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Dec 2 17:59:13 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 15:59:13 -0800 Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 Message-ID: <45721351.3040108@bitsavers.org> > I think that if this ever happened, an alternative might very well be > to just pool together as a bunch of hobbyists and order paper tapes > custom-made? I think paper mills have catered to smaller markets in > the past... Someone from the CHM PDP-1 restoration team contacted Western Numerical Control about having at batch of fanfold made. It was going to be on the order of several thousand dollars to have the paper maker WNC knows fire up the machine to do it. At $20/box on eBay, it may be worth doing.. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Dec 2 18:17:29 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 18:17:29 -0600 (CST) Subject: Never assume anything on ePay Message-ID: <200612030017.kB30HTpA023625@keith.ezwind.net> FYI: (Scuzz got a reply from the seller saying that he'd be willing to give a refund after Scuzz had returned the item) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Scuzz wrote: Hi Back to square one on the Acorn...Just had the Acorn arrive and the #*$! head used the original box to ship it to me... Read my email to him: The Acorn arrived today. I feel you should send me my money back. I purchased from you a computer in a box... IN A BOX. It was the box I purchased along with the computer. I was also buying the box. I wanted the BOX. You have destroyed the most important item of the purchase. If you were not prepared to ship the box as advertised then you should not have offered the BOX for sale. As a collector the BOX is the most important part. You left it exposed to be damaged, stuck labels all over it, and destroyed it with selotape. I wasn`t interested in a busted computer I wanted the box. In over 1800 purchases on Ebay I have never actually had the item being sold destroyed by the seller before. Do you understand what you did. It was like selling a rare stamp then sticking it to the envelope. I am so angry you cannot believe. Your Auction reads..` in its original box complete with mouse ` Why do you think people buy old computers... Goodness me. I`m very very unhappy. Breaks my heart. [ end post ] And so another valuable retro item is destroyed. The search goes on... ar hum. scuzz From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Dec 2 18:44:25 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 19:44:25 -0500 Subject: Help installing SunOS? Message-ID: <200612021944.25312.pat@computer-refuge.org> So, I'm back to trying to get my 3/180 running again. I'm trying to boot a SunOS 4.1.1 "for Sun3" install tape that I produced from images and directions that on the sun3zoo site. When I try to boot, it seems to read from the tape OK, but then it bus errors: >b xt() Boot: xt(0,0,0) Size: 507912+123920+79144 bytes Invalid Page Bus Error: Vaddr: 0E0894E4, Paddr: 000014E4, Type 0, Read, FC 5, Size 4 at 0x0000400A. The CPU is a 3/180 with 16MB of ram, an Xylogics pertec tape controller w/ Sun badged Fujitsu M24444 tape attached, and Xylogics SMD disk controller with a Fujitsu Eagle I think (aka Sun 595-1309). Anyone have any ideas what I might be doing wrong, or perhaps a working installer on 9-track tape they could copy for me? Thanks, Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 18:57:55 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 01:57:55 +0100 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines In-Reply-To: <456BF311.289E8BD2@cs.ubc.ca> References: <44440.68406.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <456BD13D.7090802@bluewin.ch> <456BF311.289E8BD2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1165107475.30774.254.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-11-28 at 00:28 -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > > > > Chris M wrote: > > > > > So what do some of the starrier UK and mainland > > > European machines go for? Heck which are they? > > Just curious, where do NorskData minis fit in this?: Well, OK, here goes my second Norwegian tech company history rant mail today. :) Please ask if there was anything I omitted. ND was founded in 1968, grew faster than Apple did for several years, suddenly stopped growing in 1987, went bankrupt in 1992, and the stock was priced at 0 in 1993. Had 4500 employees at its peak. Interesting innovations which I cannot pinpoint having been done anywhere else: 1968: First minicomputer with hardware floating point standard? 1969: First minicomputer with paging? (optional) 1973: First superminicomputer? (NORD-5) 1979: First single-board 16-bit minicomputer? (NORD-100) I'm sure there are a lot more, but it's 2am, and those are the ones that spring to a tired mind. The seed for ND was sown in the NDRE, Norwegian Defence Research Establishment. There, the SAM and SAM 2 (Which gained the nickname "FLINK" - roughly translatable to "dilligent") computers were developed by an ambitious gang of engineers. After the SAM 2 was completed, they decided to start their own computer company. Many of the designers had spent time at MIT, and the SAM shows clear inheritance from the PDP-1 and Whirlwind computers. This was to fade away as you progressed to the NORD-1, however. I myself have four ND's. One of them is one of their Motorola 88Ks, however. The one to the far left is on 24-7, fighting a winning battle with the winter cold. *With the window open.* Accounts to any SINTRAN nostalgics that may be about are certainly available (Though you'll have to telnet through my PDP-11!). http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/fourcompacts.jpeg > How prevalent were they in the European marketplace compared to, for > example, PDP-11s? Not extremely. The PDP-11s dwarfed Norsk Data in many areas, but Norsk Data had a very respectable market share with their modular, integrated office automation system NOTIS, and the NORTEXT integrated typesetting system was extremely popular. Their SIBAS II databases were also neato. These three systems were often combined together with rather neat results - one would input an advertisement in NOTIS-WP, store it in the ADBAS database, have the typesetting system typeset it, and use the report generator NOTIS-RG to automatically charge for the advertisements, for example. Later in the eighties, their Technostation CAD workstation would also gain a very large market share. They also had substantial sales to the Soviet Union, due to some rather silly behaviour on the side of CoCom - their machines were allowed in, even though they dwarfed the banned VAXen in performance! > Were they not used much in Britain (why doesn't Tony have any)?, more > popular on the continent perhaps? I don't know why Tony doesn't have one. They *were* quite common, though possibly less so in Britain than other countries. > Never see them here in Canada. A Canadian in the #classiccmp IRC channel passed up a ND-500 a while ago. They tend to surface in surprising places. Last I heard, the US and Israeli air force still actively use them as an F-16 flight simulator. Norway might too. > I recall seeing a bank of (some model) in the > beam-control room at CERN, in 1985, I think I have may have a picture of that room somewhere in a marketing brochure. Was there a voltage control console with a graphics CRT outside of the room? They were the orange generation of machines, right? (NORD-10, NORD-50, NORD-10/S) > but I don't know whether that was an > indication of their popularity/success or part of a bureacratic mandate to > spread the purchasing money around to member countries. CERN had an excellent relationship with Norsk Data. In fact, Tim Berners-Lee wrote his first prototype of the WWW concept, ENQUIRE, (which was more like a wiki, really) on a SINTRAN ND-500! The story behind the first delivery is quite funny, IMHO. This all got started in 1972. Norsk Data was founded in 1968, and was still quite a small company at this time. Back then, CERN put out a tender for the control/acquisition computers for the Synchroton accelerator. 88 companies replied, including DEC and those giants, and... Norsk Data. There circulate many stories from the early days, but these are from credible sources. CERN representatives were invited for dinner and a demonstration of the technology. On the way from the airport, the CERN representatives debated whether or not to accept their invitation to dinner, so as to not completely drain the company of money! :) The representatives were confident that they would give the contract to DEC, and felt like they were freeloading. The representatives were seated next to a teletype, and shown a demonstration of timesharing (Developed by Swedish American Bo Lewendal), BASIC compiler, FORTRAN compiler, file system, floating point performance, etc. After around 30 minutes one of the representatives interrupted - saying that they knew how remote mainframe timesharing worked, but would rather like to see what their minicomputers could do. The representatives refused to believe that the minicomputer next to the teletype had been performing these operations, and had to be shown the lead going into the machine! During that demonstration and later dinner conversations, the representatives grew certain that this was the right system for the job. The price was the lowest reply to the tender which could feasibly deliver. Once they got back and announced their intention to use Norsk Data, all hell broke loose - they'd given the tender to a tiny Norwegian company which didn't even have a working machine yet! The French embassy told CERN that when Norsk Data failed to deliver the order, they would be more than welcome back to Bull. They had sold CERN a machine which did not yet exist anywhere but on paper, the NORD-10. Reverse-compatible with the NORD-1 they had been shown, it was to be a far more compact design. The logic diagrams were done, and so were most of the microcode. The delivery was made on time - of an empty rack! They had delivered the first machine, and a couple of weeks later Harald Eide discreetly came in with a box full of cards, the solder on which had barely dried. There was no time to debug the cards - all of this was done on location, using a NORD-1 to spoonfeed the NORD-10 microcode via an "umbilical cord". When the machine was finally working, you could barely see the boards for all the wires and tape. But the delivery was accepted. The later machines were driven down by car, by B?rd S?rbye, Rolf Sk?r, and Trygve Matre. In the back of BS's Renault 4 was a disk drive, TMA had a couple of teletypes in the back, and RS had his car so full of cards he could barely see out. Their cars were stopped by customs at the border - and they almost didn't get out! The CERN contract was Norsk Data's breakthrough contract, and solidified their credibility, both nationally and internationally. I've translated the Norsk Data history page written by Jonny Oddene, an ex-ND nostalgic, and I'm working on a more thorough one of my own. http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/nd/history.html Here is the story of my own ND-100... http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/nd/nd100/ WHEW. Hope I didn't bore y'all. rgds, -Tore From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Dec 2 19:09:15 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 02:09:15 +0100 Subject: Source for Ethernet AUI/TP tranceivers? In-Reply-To: <1155306763.44dc950bbbea6@webmail.secure-wi.com> References: <1155306763.44dc950bbbea6@webmail.secure-wi.com> Message-ID: <1165108155.30774.262.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-08-11 at 07:32 -0700, mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com wrote: > The bad news is that I have a few more of these cards but the twisted pair > connector is designed for LattisNet. LattisNet is a (...) (Finally catching up on my 6000-mail backlog, in a bout of energy...) This is slightly OT, but "l?ttis" or "lattis" is idiotic Scandinavian teenybopper slang for "hilarious" or "laughing". "Det er lattis" = "That is lattis" = "That's hilarious", and somewhat strangely, "Jeg fikk lattis" = "I got lattis" = "I got hilarious" = "I laughed hard". ...Don't look for logic in teenybopper language... Anyway, the word is commonly understood, even by coherent people, and people look at me with disbelief when they notice my LattisNet LattisHub... :) http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/images/misc/lattis.jpeg -Tore From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 19:16:59 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 20:16:59 -0500 Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 In-Reply-To: <45721351.3040108@bitsavers.org> References: <45721351.3040108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Someone from the CHM PDP-1 restoration team contacted Western Numerical > Control about having at batch of fanfold made. It was going to be on the > order of several thousand dollars to have the paper maker WNC knows > fire up the machine to do it. For a couple of thousand dollars, you can get a pretty darn nice deluxe paper folder yourself. Some of them can do continuous folds. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 2 19:59:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 17:59:05 -0800 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: References: from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 2, 6 10:27:55 am, Message-ID: <4571BEE9.20658.1A867295@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Dec 2006 at 23:16, Tony Duell wrote: > I would argue software sources are more educational than useful (not that > education is not a very important 'use' :-)). I like scheamtics of old > computers for 2 reasons, firstly to learn how they worked, and secondly > to be able to repair them if something failes. Only the first is really > applicable to software, software doesn't fail in the same sense that > hardware can. If you're reading someone else's software, the stuff that isn't executable code can really give you a window on the mind of the author and answer the question "What kind of person wrote this--a hack, someone trying to show off, or someone who really put a lot of thought into what s/he was doing?". And even more importantly, "Did whoever wrote this actually know what s/he was doing?" Unfortuantely, you don't get that with decompiled/disassembled code. It might be possible to infer it, but it's quite a bit more difficult. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Dec 2 21:30:33 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 21:30:33 -0600 Subject: HP Time-Shared Basic References: <5.1.0.14.0.20061202093406.032f0e40@mail.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <015901c7168b$66ef1c00$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bill wrote... >I was recenlty given a copy of the "A Quick Reference to HP Time-Shared >BASIC" Printed 9/1969. I'm generally more interested in 2000E and 2000/Access variants of TSB, as that's what I have actually running. If anyone can get an HP fixed head disc, we could get 2000A running again but I kinda doubt those are around - I and others have looked :) The quick reference guide for 2000A would be a rather good artifact to have archived from a historical perspective. Any chance we could get it up on bitsavers after you scan it? > The system associated with the guide is the Hewlet-Packard 2000A. I'm quite familiar with it :) 2000A version of TSB had really minimal hardware requirements, most trivial to find the parts... except that fixed head disc - there's a deal breaker. 2000E is the easiest to run as it doesn't require anything TOO difficult to find other than the 12920 mux sets. 2000/Access is the most fun though - most full featured - and best documented. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Dec 2 21:33:45 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2006 21:33:45 -0600 Subject: ClassicCmp Awareness References: <4571C484.708C0B4C@rain.org> Message-ID: <016001c7168b$d8f24610$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Marvin wrote... > I've been selling some stuff on ebay and have found a number of people who > aren't aware that this listserver exists. I sell a fair amount on ebay as well (but of course, buy more than I sell!). I'm continually amazed by how many people I find on ebay who DO know about the list and are subscribed but rarely if ever post and no one on the list knows who they are ;) > Basically, I'm referring them to the > ClassicCmp website and they can view the archives and decide if they want > to > join. Bless you :) Much appreciated! > I wonder if a link to the Vintage Computer Marketplace would be > appropriate to > put on the ClassicCmp home page? There is a plan for this in the links database. However, I need to get in touch with the web developer to see where things stand. Been way too long since I heard from him.... Jay West From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Dec 2 22:22:41 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 20:22:41 -0800 Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 In-Reply-To: References: <1165102108.30774.190.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <45725111.9060200@pacbell.net> David Griffith wrote: > Sidenote: how hard would it be to make a paper tape reader and punch from > scratch? The idea is to have a lightweight unit for playing with my > SBC6120 and perhaps Altair reissue/clone (if and when I get one). Back in the Altair days, there was a company called Oliver Audio Engineering that made a small optical papertape reader for hobbyist use. You pulled the tape through manually. The read strobe was generated by sensing the sprocket holes. It would not be difficult to recreate this device, or something similar. I think you'd need a machine shop and considerable skill to make a punch from scratch, While it would not be beyond the capabilities of those folks who build clocks and engines from scratch, you're best bet is to try to pick up one on eBay. They show up with considerable regularity, and usually go for $100-$300. --Bill From kossow at computerhistory.org Sat Dec 2 17:56:27 2006 From: kossow at computerhistory.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 15:56:27 -0800 Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 Message-ID: > I think that if this ever happened, an alternative might very well be to > just pool together as a bunch of hobbyists and order paper tapes > custom-made? I think paper mills have catered to smaller markets in the > past... Someone from the CHM PDP-1 restoration team contacted Western Numerical Control about having at batch of fanfold made. It was going to be on the order of several thousand dollars to have the paper maker WNC knows fire up the machine to do it. At $20/box on eBay, it may be worth doing.. From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Dec 2 21:06:46 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 03:06:46 +0000 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <4571FF4E.4040208@yahoo.com> References: <200612021800.kB2I0H3D072139@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4571FF4E.4040208@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45723F46.70705@gjcp.net> Al Hartman wrote: > I'd like to pursue this. My partner is checking into a company he found > as well. > > We have plenty of old keyboards which have breaks in the tracks due to > age, which can be used as models. Not surprising > He is tearing one apart to scan in for artwork. There must be plenty > We'll have to differentiate the reproductions from originals in some > way, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Uhm, they would be the ones that *work*... Gordon From wizard at voyager.net Sun Dec 3 03:37:54 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 04:37:54 -0500 Subject: Discussion of large systems In-Reply-To: <1165079746.30774.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1165079746.30774.97.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1165138674.26280.83.camel@linux.site> On Sat, 2006-12-02 at 18:15 +0100, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > The machine was used at NTH, now NTNU, and successor > to this machine, an 1100/*mumble*, was actually > dumped to sea, for some environmental reason(!). A very exciting project, Project Scalar. They are attempting to teach high technology to fish. Currently, the state of technology is very poor. Most of their computers use Albacore memory, and communicate via Cisco routers. Most of the Cod they use has been cobbled together, by Cobblers and Four-eyes, naturally, and is generally considered to be Crappie, if not a Croaker, and compliance checked by Gibberfish sporting Mullets. Currently, very few Skilfish are programming, and nobody uses Turbot mode. Recent equal rights legislation has ensured that at least portions of major releases are written by Damselfish, Mollies, Oldwifes, Ladyfish, and the much more common Ragfish and Hagfish. The use of Queen Danio is still being debated. Separate (but equal) codicils ensure that Jewfish, Spadefish, Spookfish, Blackfish, Spanish Mackerel, Ricefish, and Oriental Loaches are involved, as well. One of the few areas of the technology industry on a par with land-based companies is marketing. Just as on land, marketing underwater is handled by a consortium of Wormfish, Cutthroat Trout, Clownfish, Longnose Suckers, Loosejaws, Poachers, Ratfish, Turkeyfish, Roaches, and everybody's favorite, the "after hours" crew, consisting of Smoothtongues, Tonguefish, Swallowers, and Chubsuckers. Upper management of the companies I have seen is exclusively composed of Weasel Sharks, and I am told this is industry-wide. Southern North American operations have been turned over to a contingent of Carpetsharks. Publicity is mostly word of Slipmouth, with Web work done by an avant garde crew of Hairyfish, Beardfish, and Flabby Whalefish. The advertisements are musical viral videos, and done with good taste, with a variety of Seattle's Grunion rock Bandfish, and other music. Carp Cobia, lead singer for Nurse Shark, is performing the hit "Smelt like Teen Splitfin." Additionally, Pearl Danio Jam is performing "Not for Unicornfish." And everyone's favorite Viperfish will sing a re-mixed version of "Like a Sturgeon." Never before have so many Guitarfish, Sea Bass, Leatherjackets, Groupers, and Rock Beauties been hanging around a tech company. Of course, they turned several of the programmers into Pufferfish and Stonefish, but it was worth it. On a more classic note, through impressive contract arrangements and digital reconstruction, the late Velvetfish fog himself will sing a little American Sole with "Bluegill and Sedimental," singing both the melody and harmony. Word is, Moorish Idol is talking contract. To top it off, Devario Marlin performs his unforgettable "That's a Moray." The last few seconds are, just for the halibut, software king Billfish, singing "Knife the Mac." Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Dec 2 14:43:33 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 20:43:33 +0000 Subject: Cifer T-5 Message-ID: <200612022043.UAA25799@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, I'm not sure if I've already asked this here, but does anyone know anything about the Cifer T-5 terminal? Mine is missing the keyboard so any info on that would help. Otherwise, assuming it's a fairly typical serial type, it will be a matter of sorting out the connections and the baud rate - not too difficult but easier if you know what it _should_ be. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Dec 3 07:24:14 2006 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 08:24:14 -0500 Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 Message-ID: <0J9P00C4Z97KJ26N@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 > From: David Griffith > Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2006 15:54:02 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >Sidenote: how hard would it be to make a paper tape reader and punch from >scratch? The idea is to have a lightweight unit for playing with my >SBC6120 and perhaps Altair reissue/clone (if and when I get one). > A reader is fairly simple matter lookup the OAE [oliver audio engineering] reader design. However the punch is a mechanical project. The only kitted one was the Heath (H10 I think) punch reader and that was not very reliable or light. Allison From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Dec 3 11:04:50 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 18:04:50 +0100 Subject: CDC power supplies available. Message-ID: <457303B2.2050406@bluewin.ch> Just wanted to check before I toss them : I have a 5V 25A and a +/- 15V 3A linear powersupply that were part of some CDC machine ( early seventies i guess ). If anyone needs them... Location : Zurich Switzerland Jos Dreesen From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Dec 3 11:16:21 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 18:16:21 +0100 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V Message-ID: <45730665.60607@bluewin.ch> I want to convert a ASR33 from 110V/50Hz ( yes , 50Hz) to 220V. Is it sufficient to swap the motor and fuses ? A nice touch of this particular machine is the unused "here is" option. I wonder if a small bootloader would fit in it... Jos Dreesen From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Dec 3 12:02:25 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 10:02:25 -0800 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <45730665.60607@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: >From: Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel > >I want to convert a ASR33 from 110V/50Hz ( yes , 50Hz) to 220V. > >Is it sufficient to swap the motor and fuses ? > > >A nice touch of this particular machine is the unused "here is" option. >I wonder if a small bootloader would fit in it... > > Jos Dreesen > Hi It makes more sense to use an autotransformer. You can often use the input leads of a transformer that is intended to be wired for 110/220. As an autotransformer, it only has to carry half the current that a full transformer would need. There are several parts of the machine that use the 110v. As I recall, things like the reader power supply and the supply for the keyboard also use the input supply voltage. It make much more sense to use the original voltage with an auto transformer. Since the frequency is the same, there is no issue with belts and pulleys. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Share your latest news with your friends with the Windows Live Spaces friends module. http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Dec 3 12:23:44 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 10:23:44 -0800 Subject: Lyle Bickley: Update on TSX+ ?? In-Reply-To: <001001c715ae$f5308900$fa00a8c0@badddog> References: <001001c715ae$f5308900$fa00a8c0@badddog> Message-ID: <200612031023.45073.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Stuart, On Friday 01 December 2006 17:12, Stuart Johnson wrote: > Lyle, > > It has been a while since you updated the Classiccmp list with the status > of your project to make TSX+ available to hobbyists. Can you tell us where > the project is at the present time? Thanks for the gentle reminder. Unfortunately, it kinda dropped off my "to do" list. I was really excited about getting the permission to release it, finding all the code, utilities, docs, etc. I then tried to get a couple of folks on the list to create a website for TSX+ - handling verification of collector "status", etc. I had a couple of volunteers - but, unfortunately, they dropped out - the usual - work demands, etc. The ball went back into my court - and work, etc. got in the way (I run a consulting firm). Your reminder prompted me to re-introduce it to my "to do" queue. I will, hopefully, have time during the Holidays to work on the TSX (and eventually other stuff) website. I've already got the domain, "oldminimicro.com", set up "under construction". Thanks for being patient. It's been way too long for me to get this done. Sigh... Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 3 12:39:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 11:39:40 -0700 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 02 Dec 2006 23:16:29 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > [...] I like scheamtics of old > computers for 2 reasons, firstly to learn how they worked, and secondly > to be able to repair them if something failes. Only the first is really > applicable to software, software doesn't fail in the same sense that > hardware can. It fails in the same sense that a hardware design bug would be sitting there permanently annoying you until you fixed it. Machines tend not to ship with hardware bugs because they typically aren't useful with hardware bugs. They do however ship with lots of software bugs, even on older machines. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Dec 3 13:07:36 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 20:07:36 +0100 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V References: <45730665.60607@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F824@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Jos, wouldn't it be easier to get an auto-transformer 220 -> 110 VAC ? - Henk. ________________________________ Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel Verzonden: zo 03-12-2006 18:16 Aan: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: ASR-33 conversion to 220V I want to convert a ASR33 from 110V/50Hz ( yes , 50Hz) to 220V. Is it sufficient to swap the motor and fuses ? A nice touch of this particular machine is the unused "here is" option. I wonder if a small bootloader would fit in it... Jos Dreesen This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 3 14:10:40 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 15:10:40 -0500 Subject: ZX-81 / TS 1000 keyboards In-Reply-To: <4571A4BE.4020600@gjcp.net> References: <200611081436.kA8EaRc1084329@dewey.classiccmp.org> <455213B5.4090402@yahoo.com> <45708CCB.2080105@aol.com> <4571660F.2000602@gjcp.net> <6BAB01A1-DCF4-4BCA-B8A7-25A1DD5B8F81@neurotica.com> <4571A4BE.4020600@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <589985BA-98C2-456E-B7D5-59E6CA7D253E@neurotica.com> On Dec 2, 2006, at 11:07 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>>> At this late date it would probably be easier to design >>>> and build an interface so that a common PS/2-type keyboard >>>> could be used, along with some self-adhesive key-top stickers. >>> >>> Seems like overkill - the interface would need more processor >>> power than the ZX81, most likely. >> Nah, not even close. In the unit I mentioned in my other >> message on this topic, the keyboard encoder processor (which also >> did a bunch of other housekeeping) was a PIC16C65B clocked at >> 32KHz. (no typo there) > > I don't see that being able to handle talking to a PC keyboard, > though. Yeah we might have to bump the clock rate up to a screaming 1MHz. ;) (I personally have done it at 4MHz with lots of cycles to spare) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 3 15:02:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 13:02:43 -0800 Subject: Driving 220/330 terminated loads Message-ID: <4572CAF3.10819.1E9D77FE@cclist.sydex.com> I know the "right" answer to this one--you drive 220/330 ohm terminated loads with 7438-type OC drivers. But, going a bit afield from "correct", can one drive a single 220/330 ohm terminated load at the end of a 3m length of ribbon cable at 1 MHz using plain old totem- pole STTL output? How about an LSTTL or HCT totem-pole driver? You can assume that the receiver is a 74LS14. Thanks, Chuck From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun Dec 3 15:11:37 2006 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:11:37 -0500 Subject: CoCo Videotext version Message-ID: <4affc5e0612031311n278f939x724c56734bc1610d@mail.gmail.com> I am not a Coco collector, but I noticed this on the local (Montreal) Craigslist, and figured it might be of interest to people here. Note, I have no connection to the seller. http://montreal.craigslist.org/sys/243510966.html Joe. From melamy at earthlink.net Sun Dec 3 15:44:05 2006 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 13:44:05 -0800 Subject: Driving 220/330 terminated loads In-Reply-To: <4572CAF3.10819.1E9D77FE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4572CAF3.10819.1E9D77FE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061203133722.0238fd08@earthlink.net> the normal totem pole output for S TTL logic will only sink 20 ma to guarantee a logic low. The 220 ohm resistor to +5 will be 22.7ma, so you are exceeding the chip's capability by some amount. LS and HCT can sink even less current. best regards, Steve Thatcher At 01:02 PM 12/3/2006, you wrote: >I know the "right" answer to this one--you drive 220/330 ohm >terminated loads with 7438-type OC drivers. But, going a bit afield >from "correct", can one drive a single 220/330 ohm terminated load at >the end of a 3m length of ribbon cable at 1 MHz using plain old totem- >pole STTL output? How about an LSTTL or HCT totem-pole driver? > >You can assume that the receiver is a 74LS14. > >Thanks, >Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 3 16:09:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 14:09:54 -0800 Subject: Driving 220/330 terminated loads In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20061203133722.0238fd08@earthlink.net> References: <4572CAF3.10819.1E9D77FE@cclist.sydex.com>, <7.0.1.0.2.20061203133722.0238fd08@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4572DAB2.16678.1EDAFB84@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Dec 2006 at 13:44, Steve Thatcher wrote: > the normal totem pole output for S TTL logic will only sink 20 ma to > guarantee a logic low. The 220 ohm resistor to +5 will be 22.7ma, so > you are exceeding the chip's capability by some amount. LS and HCT > can sink even less current. I was thinking of driving the lines with an LS540. which has an I(OL) of 24 ma per output. What I was curious about was if the low-level sink current is sufficient, will I run into problems with the totem- pole pullup? In other words, do I really need OC drivers? Thanks, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Dec 3 16:09:10 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 22:09:10 +0000 Subject: TI CC40 In-Reply-To: <200612012009.kB1K9DeS010480@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 1/12/06 20:09, "Cameron Kaiser" wrote: >> Am I imagining things or was there a discussion very recently about Texas >> Instruments' little baby? Whilst browsing ebay uk last week I found one >> that was NIB so naturally I had to have it :) The seller works 5 minutes >> from my weekend home so it was even better. > > Fun little units -- too bad mass storage on them is pretty much a loss. If > only that wafertape drive had gotten more reliable or widely produced ... Indeed, my box has a nice pic of the wafertape drive and a Big Sticker saying that it's not available. Bah. Does anyone know how many wafertapes were unleashed to world+dog? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Dec 3 13:28:54 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 19:28:54 +0000 Subject: Lyle Bickley: Update on TSX+ ?? In-Reply-To: <200612031023.45073.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <001001c715ae$f5308900$fa00a8c0@badddog> <200612031023.45073.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <45732576.1060808@gjcp.net> Lyle Bickley wrote: > Stuart, > > On Friday 01 December 2006 17:12, Stuart Johnson wrote: >> Lyle, >> >> It has been a while since you updated the Classiccmp list with the status >> of your project to make TSX+ available to hobbyists. Can you tell us where >> the project is at the present time? > > Thanks for the gentle reminder. Unfortunately, it kinda dropped off my "to do" > list. > > I was really excited about getting the permission to release it, finding all > the code, utilities, docs, etc. I then tried to get a couple of folks on the > list to create a website for TSX+ - handling verification of collector > "status", etc. I had a couple of volunteers - but, unfortunately, they > dropped out - the usual - work demands, etc. Well actually, I've just been made redundant, and I need some PHP and MySQL samples for a couple of jobs I've applied for. Run your ideas by me again, and I'll see what I can do... > The ball went back into my court - and work, etc. got in the way (I run a > consulting firm). > > Your reminder prompted me to re-introduce it to my "to do" queue. I will, > hopefully, have time during the Holidays to work on the TSX (and eventually > other stuff) website. I've already got the domain, "oldminimicro.com", set up > "under construction". ... and I now have a working(-ish) PDP-11/73 to run TSX+ on again! Gordon. From rcini at optonline.net Sun Dec 3 16:39:39 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 17:39:39 -0500 Subject: Printer ribbon sources Message-ID: <008501c7172b$eb46d970$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> All: I just came across a Tandy printer (DMP105, 26-1276) and I'm having problems finding a ribbon for it. The OEM replacement catalog number is 26-1288 which I believe can be used on the DMP-106, too. I'm wondering if anyone has knows of a suitable replacement or a consistent source for dot matrix printer ribbons for "classic" printers. The ribbon itself looks to be in good condition so I guess I could re-ink it, in which case, what's the best ink for that? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Dec 3 17:46:39 2006 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 15:46:39 -0800 Subject: Printer ribbon sources In-Reply-To: <008501c7172b$eb46d970$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <0a3501c71735$47332c30$0701a8c0@liberator> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 2:40 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Printer ribbon sources All: I just came across a Tandy printer (DMP105, 26-1276) and I'm having problems finding a ribbon for it. The OEM replacement catalog number is 26-1288 which I believe can be used on the DMP-106, too. I'm wondering if anyone has knows of a suitable replacement or a consistent source for dot matrix printer ribbons for "classic" printers. The ribbon itself looks to be in good condition so I guess I could re-ink it, in which case, what's the best ink for that? -snip- http://www.cfriends.com/ Computer friends, they still sell the macinker, a reinking tool for dot matrix ribbons. They sell ink, and also ribbon and a ribbon-welder to weld the loose ribbon together. They are also a good source for laser toner, etc... From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Dec 3 17:55:27 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 15:55:27 -0800 Subject: Lyle Bickley: Update on TSX+ ?? In-Reply-To: <45732576.1060808@gjcp.net> References: <001001c715ae$f5308900$fa00a8c0@badddog> <200612031023.45073.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <45732576.1060808@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200612031555.27961.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Gordon, On Sunday 03 December 2006 11:28, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: --snip-- > Well actually, I've just been made redundant, Bummer, sorry to hear that... > and I need some PHP and > MySQL samples for a couple of jobs I've applied for. Run your ideas by > me again, and I'll see what I can do... Will do. It would be a good "exercise" - and something "live" that you could point to. Where are you located? What's your phone number? I'd like to chat with you about this!!! > ... and I now have a working(-ish) PDP-11/73 to run TSX+ on again! Cool! It works great on a 11/73. I've run it on my 11/34A and my 11/83 - and the 83 "screams" in comparison. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 3 18:00:35 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 16:00:35 -0800 Subject: Printer ribbon sources In-Reply-To: <008501c7172b$eb46d970$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> References: <008501c7172b$eb46d970$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> Message-ID: <4572F4A3.21660.1F404FC9@cclist.sydex.com> If I had a really tough time locating a ribbon, I'd talk to these folks: http://www.ecomall.com/biz/rib.htm They'll custom-make ribbons if necessary. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Dec 3 17:51:53 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 18:51:53 -0500 Subject: pointers on what tss/8 really needs to run Message-ID: <200612032351.kB3Npscc021467@mwave.heeltoe.com> First off, my apologies to the pdp-8 aficionados on the list. While I used 8's back in the day there's a lot I don't know about them. I'd like to understand *exactly* what hardware tss/8 needs to run. My understanding is that it will only run on an 8/I with the following options KT08/I timesharing option MC8/I memory option KE8/I multiply divide option I'm curious because I wrote up a simple pdp-8 verilog description which runs FOCAL and I think it would be fun to run tss/8 also. I'd like some pointers to documents which describe the options needed and details about them. Certainly all of the IF/DF extended memory is needed, since last time I ran tss/8 we had 32k. I'm guessing that this is covered in the MC8/I documents. I'm curious if the KE8/I is the same as the EAE. And I've never seen a description the KT08, all though I can guess what it does (traps any 6xxx as well as halt and switch register access at a minimum, but anything else?) Also, if there is a better list for this sort of question please let me know. I've never read alt.pdp8.whoknowswhat but maybe I should. -brad From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Dec 3 18:20:15 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 16:20:15 -0800 Subject: pointers on what TSS/8 really needs to run In-Reply-To: <200612032351.kB3Npscc021467@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200612032351.kB3Npscc021467@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200612031620.16801.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Brad, On Sunday 03 December 2006 15:51, Brad Parker wrote: > First off, my apologies to the pdp-8 aficionados on the list. While I used > 8's back in the day there's a lot I don't know about them. > > I'd like to understand *exactly* what hardware tss/8 needs to run. Take a look at the TSS/8 manuals on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/tss8/ The Managers and Users Guide provide lots of info on hardware requirements. TSS will run on 8/I/L/E with the appropriate options. I've run it on a PDP-8/I and may be running it on my 8/E at some point. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From melamy at earthlink.net Sun Dec 3 21:51:21 2006 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 19:51:21 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: Driving 220/330 terminated loads Message-ID: <12815815.1165204281408.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> the only time a totem-pole output would have an issue if it had to fight another output - one low and one high. As long as you are driving using a single output that has to deal with the resistor network, you should be just fine. The interface you are describing is basically the same as on a 8" disk drive. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- >From: Chuck Guzis >I was thinking of driving the lines with an LS540. which has an I(OL) >of 24 ma per output. What I was curious about was if the low-level >sink current is sufficient, will I run into problems with the totem- >pole pullup? In other words, do I really need OC drivers? > >Thanks, >Chuck > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 3 22:11:46 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 20:11:46 -0800 Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 In-Reply-To: <45725111.9060200@pacbell.net> References: <1165102108.30774.190.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45725111.9060200@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4573A002.9060206@sbcglobal.net> I have the manuals for the Oliver Audio Engineering (OP-80a) and Proko Electronics paper tape reader on my web site here: http://www.dvq.com/docs/s100/ I might be able to dig up one or two of the 9 position photo detectors if I dig deep enough into storage for someone who is serious about building one. Bob William Maddox wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > >> Sidenote: how hard would it be to make a paper tape reader and punch >> from >> scratch? The idea is to have a lightweight unit for playing with my >> SBC6120 and perhaps Altair reissue/clone (if and when I get one). > > > Back in the Altair days, there was a company called Oliver Audio > Engineering > that made a small optical papertape reader for hobbyist use. You > pulled the > tape through manually. The read strobe was generated by sensing the > sprocket > holes. It would not be difficult to recreate this device, or something > similar. > > I think you'd need a machine shop and considerable skill to make a > punch from > scratch, While it would not be beyond the capabilities of those folks > who build > clocks and engines from scratch, you're best bet is to try to pick up > one on > eBay. They show up with considerable regularity, and usually go for > $100-$300. > > --Bill > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Dec 3 22:28:18 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:28:18 -0600 Subject: Lyle Bickley: Update on TSX+ ?? References: <001001c715ae$f5308900$fa00a8c0@badddog> <200612031023.45073.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <007801c7175c$a1181a90$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Lyle wrote.... > I was really excited about getting the permission to release it, finding > all > the code, utilities, docs, etc. I then tried to get a couple of folks on > the > list to create a website for TSX+ - handling verification of collector > "status", etc. I had a couple of volunteers - but, unfortunately, they > dropped out - the usual - work demands, etc. I'd be happy to host this on the classiccmp server.. php & mysql are already there ;) Jay West From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Dec 3 22:38:24 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 20:38:24 -0800 Subject: Lyle Bickley: Update on TSX+ ?? In-Reply-To: <007801c7175c$a1181a90$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001001c715ae$f5308900$fa00a8c0@badddog> <200612031023.45073.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <007801c7175c$a1181a90$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200612032038.24606.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Jay, On Sunday 03 December 2006 20:28, Jay West wrote: > I'd be happy to host this on the classiccmp server.. php & mysql are > already there ;) Thanks for the offer - but I've already got a domain (technically a subdomain) and basic "construction site" setup ("oldminimicro.com"). Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Dec 3 22:53:05 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 22:53:05 -0600 Subject: Lyle Bickley: Update on TSX+ ?? References: <001001c715ae$f5308900$fa00a8c0@badddog> <200612031023.45073.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <007801c7175c$a1181a90$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200612032038.24606.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <009901c71760$1b4c8f50$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Lyle wrote.... > Thanks for the offer - but I've already got a domain (technically a > subdomain) > and basic "construction site" setup ("oldminimicro.com"). I wasn't talking about the domain registration, I was talking about the hosting. You could easily point the domain to a server here, and/or I could provide free dns of the domain you've already registered to another server or one here. But no matter, if you've got it covered that's great. Jay From marvin at rain.org Mon Dec 4 00:55:02 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 22:55:02 -0800 Subject: Floppy Disk Identification Message-ID: <4573C646.6E9D4BBB@rain.org> As a several boxes of floppy disks slipped and fell, the question occurred ... if you have a disk with only a vague idea of what computer it might go to, is there an easy way to find out what computer made it without trying it in a number of systems? Is Teledisk or Dave's program likely to be useful? And what about Apple disks? And to make it "easy", assume the disks all look like soft-sector disks. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 4 01:17:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2006 23:17:52 -0800 Subject: Floppy Disk Identification In-Reply-To: <4573C646.6E9D4BBB@rain.org> References: <4573C646.6E9D4BBB@rain.org> Message-ID: <45735B20.9798.20D0A547@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Dec 2006 at 22:55, Marvin Johnston wrote: > As a several boxes of floppy disks slipped and fell, the question occurred ... > if you have a disk with only a vague idea of what computer it might go to, is > there an easy way to find out what computer made it without trying it in a > number of systems? Is Teledisk or Dave's program likely to be useful? And what > about Apple disks? Poke at it with something like AnaDisk for an identifying string in the first few tracks. Be aware that some systems inverted the sense of the data, so you may have to complement the sector to see what's really there. If it's Apple or Commodure, a old XT or 286 with a Central Point Deluxe Option Board will tell you a lot. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Dec 4 03:01:32 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 01:01:32 -0800 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines References: <44440.68406.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <456BD13D.7090802@bluewin.ch> <456BF311.289E8BD2@cs.ubc.ca> <1165107475.30774.254.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4573E3E6.894E0F21@cs.ubc.ca> Tore, thanks for your extensive reply about Norsk Data and the story about the CERN machines. I like hearing about the other minicomputers/companies - the 'rest of the world' - in addition to DEC and HP all the time. Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > I recall seeing a bank of (some model) in the > > beam-control room at CERN, in 1985, > > I think I have may have a picture of that room somewhere in a marketing > brochure. Was there a voltage control console with a graphics CRT > outside of the room? They were the orange generation of machines, right? > (NORD-10, NORD-50, NORD-10/S) I was actually working in another area of the site (DD) and saw that control room just once - I don't remember what was outside it. A co-worker took me through to show me an earlier project she had been working on, which involved programming the ND machines. Yes, indeed(!), they were of the orange generation: even in the dim lighting and off to one side, the bank of them rather determined the colour scheme for the room. ('SCREAMING ORANGE' as you said in an earlier message. Orange panels with aluminum trim, IIRC.) They were from the 70's after all: the era of DEC purple, kitchen appliances in harvest-gold and avocado-green (for North Americans), and too many other design crimes. (Then again, this blue iMac in front of me may look horribly kitschy/garrish in another 20 years.) From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Dec 4 05:42:47 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 06:42:47 -0500 Subject: Floppy Disk Identification In-Reply-To: <4573C646.6E9D4BBB@rain.org> Message-ID: <200612041048.kB4Am8c0022053@hosting.monisys.ca> > As a several boxes of floppy disks slipped and fell, the question occurred ... > if you have a disk with only a vague idea of what computer it might go to, is > there an easy way to find out what computer made it without trying it in a > number of systems? Is Teledisk or Dave's program likely to be useful? And what > about Apple disks? > > And to make it "easy", assume the disks all look like soft-sector disks. If ImageDisk or TeleDisk will read it, then you at least know it's an FM or MFM format (not Apple, Commodore etc.). Assuming that ImageDisk will read it, then you could scan the image file for copyright notices etc. It might be slightly easier if you use ImageDisk Utility to convert it to a raw binary file (remove track/sector headers etc.). Use a hex editor and do a case insensitive search for "COPYRI" and "(C)" also, just scroll through the first few tracks and see if you can identfy any text with clues. Most OS's and many programs will have startup messages identifying the system on which they run. If you cannot see ANY text, then the code on the disk may not be in ASCII (unlikely) or may use a different encoding - try inverting all the data bytes and see if that turns up anything useful. Q for all: Would it be worth building a HEX viewer into ImageDisk so that you could look at track content without having to read the disk into a file first? Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Dec 4 08:34:13 2006 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 06:34:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wang gear on eBay, 2200, no bids Message-ID: <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There's supposedly a 2200 in there, though there's a lot of stuff I don't recognizes. Any Wang fans on the list? http://cgi.ebay.com/vintage-COMPUTER-LOT-huge-heavy-WANG-PMI_W0QQitemZ170055531046QQihZ007QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem eBay: vintage COMPUTER LOT huge & heavy ,WANG ,PMI (item 170055531046 end time Dec-05-06 16:51:38 PST) --Bill From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Dec 4 05:39:10 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 11:39:10 +0000 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines In-Reply-To: <4573E3E6.894E0F21@cs.ubc.ca> References: <44440.68406.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <456BD13D.7090802@bluewin.ch> <456BF311.289E8BD2@cs.ubc.ca> <1165107475.30774.254.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4573E3E6.894E0F21@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <457408DE.304@gjcp.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: > They were from the 70's after all: the era of DEC purple, kitchen appliances > in harvest-gold and avocado-green (for North Americans), and too many other > design crimes. (Then again, this blue iMac in front of me may look horribly > kitschy/garrish in another 20 years.) you don't think it does already? ;-) Gordon From tarsi at binhost.com Mon Dec 4 09:25:39 2006 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Nathan E. Pralle) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 09:25:39 -0600 Subject: Wang gear on eBay, 2200, no bids In-Reply-To: <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45743DF3.5040308@binhost.com> > There's supposedly a 2200 in there, though there's a > lot of stuff I don't recognizes. Any Wang fans on the > list? I'm a big fan of my Wang. *ducks* Nathan From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Dec 4 10:07:20 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 10:07:20 -0600 Subject: Wang gear on eBay, 2200, no bids In-Reply-To: <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <457447B8.20007@pacbell.net> William Maddox wrote: > There's supposedly a 2200 in there, though there's a > lot of stuff I don't recognizes. Any Wang fans on the > list? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/vintage-COMPUTER-LOT-huge-heavy-WANG-PMI_W0QQitemZ170055531046QQihZ007QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > eBay: vintage COMPUTER LOT huge & heavy ,WANG ,PMI > (item 170055531046 end time Dec-05-06 16:51:38 PST) > > --Bill > > > One box looks like a 2200T CPU, and another is 2200MVP (looks like it is sporting 8 terminal ports). The CPUs are the things that look like metal suitcases. The 2280 is a removable hard disk unit. The terminal is probably a 2236DW. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 4 11:41:18 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 10:41:18 -0700 Subject: Wang gear on eBay, 2200, no bids In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 04 Dec 2006 06:34:13 -0800. <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: 17 hrs drive from Salt Lake. It would be a 3 day affair getting the stuff for me. I would probably pay to have it shipped. It looks like he has the 2200 CPU unit but not the more recognizable green CRT front ends. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 4 11:42:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 10:42:44 -0700 Subject: Wang gear on eBay, 2200, no bids In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 04 Dec 2006 10:07:20 -0600. <457447B8.20007@pacbell.net> Message-ID: In article <457447B8.20007 at pacbell.net>, Jim Battle writes: > One box looks like a 2200T CPU, and another is 2200MVP (looks like it is > sporting 8 terminal ports). The CPUs are the things that look like > metal suitcases. The 2280 is a removable hard disk unit. The terminal > is probably a 2236DW. It also looks like he has a luggable/portalable in there, maybe a commodore SX-64? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wizard at voyager.net Mon Dec 4 14:02:50 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:02:50 -0500 Subject: Wang gear on eBay, 2200, no bids In-Reply-To: <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1165262570.3528.17.camel@linux.site> On Mon, 2006-12-04 at 06:34 -0800, William Maddox wrote: > There's supposedly a 2200 in there, though there's a > lot of stuff I don't recognizes. Any Wang fans on the > list? Don't ask, don't tell... (Step right up! Used Wang jokes... Get your used Wang jokes here...) Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 4 14:22:37 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 12:22:37 -0800 Subject: Wang gear on eBay, 2200, no bids In-Reply-To: <1165262570.3528.17.camel@linux.site> References: <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <1165262570.3528.17.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <4574130D.10994.239F1C5E@cclist.sydex.com> An Wang was a terrifically productive man. I'd rather have an autographed copy of his autobiography than a truckload of Wang iron. Here's a sample of this mind at work filed in 1964: http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/Wang-patent.html Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Dec 4 14:25:37 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 15:25:37 -0500 Subject: ebay dilema Message-ID: <003601c717e2$5c3cba80$0b01a8c0@game> What do you do when you buy a small lot of items, a piece that you wanted is not included (shown in the picture and stated in the inventory), and the seller does not respond to your questions (but you paid very little for the lot and there was a couple extra things included)? What would you people do? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 4 14:38:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 12:38:19 -0800 Subject: ebay dilema In-Reply-To: <003601c717e2$5c3cba80$0b01a8c0@game> References: <003601c717e2$5c3cba80$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: <457416BB.1225.23AD7BC2@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Dec 2006 at 15:25, Teo Zenios wrote: > What do you do when you buy a small lot of items, a piece that you > wanted is not included (shown in the picture and stated in the > inventory), and the seller does not respond to your questions (but you > paid very little for the lot and there was a couple extra things > included)? What would you people do? Did you pay with PayPal? If so, you may want to file a claim against the seller. That puts the burden of proof on him, not you. Unless otherwise stated, pictures show what's being offered for sale. That's an eBay policy. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 4 14:56:53 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 13:56:53 -0700 Subject: ebay dilema In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:25:37 -0500. <003601c717e2$5c3cba80$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: In article <003601c717e2$5c3cba80$0b01a8c0 at game>, "Teo Zenios" writes: > [...] What would you people do? Use negative feedback? Not delivering goods advertised in the sale (both in the listing and in photographs) is a big no-no for ebay, even if the price of the auction is small. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 4 15:07:48 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 14:07:48 -0700 Subject: library book sales Message-ID: Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via library book sales? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 4 15:17:20 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 15:17:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: ebay dilema Message-ID: <200612042117.kB4LHIW9040542@keith.ezwind.net> --- Teo Zenios wrote: > What do you do when you buy a small lot of items, a > piece that you wanted is not included (shown in th e > picture and stated in the inventory), and the sell er > does not respond to your questions (but you paid > very little for the lot and there was a couple ext ra > things included)? What would you people do? > A similar thing happened to me a while ago. However, my situation was slightly different in that the seller apologised for losing one of the items and asked me if I was happy with the extra items he sent instead. In your case, if the seller doesn't respond I'd open up a dispute. If the seller still doesn't repond then post negative feedback. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 15:19:21 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 16:19:21 -0500 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I once bought a set of OS/2 diskettes. On 12/4/06, Richard wrote: > > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 4 15:20:34 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:20:34 -0600 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45749122.8030605@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >>> I still have my (almost) fully-loaded Atom >> I was hoping that by 'fully loaded' you meant that it had the BBC BASIC, >> Econet and Colour boards :-) (I've never seen a real example of the latter, >> although I know that there's at least one in the UK) > > What does the colour board look like, and where does it fit? I can't recall what it looks like now - I've never seen the real board, and the only photo I knew of was on the 8bs website (which has been down for many many months now, although it will be coming back one day we're promised!) However, from memory, the board intercepted the signals to/from the video IC socket, and then the Atom's displaced video IC (umm, a 6847 I think) plugged into the colour board itself. I think that the 6847 chip was colour-ready anyway; it's just that the standard Atom doesn't include the necessary circuitry to make use of it (I think the floating point ROM actually contains the code to make use of the board). I also have a funny feeling that the colour board didn't provide component RGB - it'd only allow colour via the modulator and displayed on a TV. All the info - including schematics / parts list / theory of operation - is in the manual for the board; every so often I toy with the idea of building one, but then decide that it's a lot of effort [1] for not much gain (after all, it's not like there's a wealth of software out there which uses the board, so I'd be limited to whatever I decided to write myself) [1] Relatively speaking. The circuit's not complex, although I have a feeling that some of the listed parts may be hard to find these days. I'll dig out the manual tomorrow (I got back to the UK earlier today) if I get the chance and flick through it for useful info... (amazingly I know which shelf that one's on, but I'm about ready to fall over here :-) >> You know, I have a feeling that you can get 7805 regulators that'll handle 2A > > There's the 78S05 (2A ,in a plastic TO220 pacakge, like the plain 7805) > and the 78H05 (5A, in a metal TO3 pacakge) Heh, I don't think I've ever heard of the latter one... >> There's a lot of Atoms out there that have had the regulators bypassed, no >> sticker added, and then subsequently had 9V shoved through them :( > > s/through/across/ true :) > Ouch. I am sure that cooks a few ICs... Indeed. It's a shame, but then it's bad design on Acorn's part as it was pretty obvious that relying on a sticky label being present wasn't particularly foolproof! cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 4 15:23:09 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 14:23:09 -0700 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 04 Dec 2006 16:19:21 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "9000 VAX" writes: > I once bought a set of OS/2 diskettes. Heh heh. I was wondering if things like copies of Datamation or other now defunct periodicals might show up in that sort of sale. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Dec 4 15:36:56 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 13:36:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wang gear on eBay, 2200, no bids In-Reply-To: from Richard at "Dec 4, 6 10:42:44 am" Message-ID: <200612042136.kB4LauSI041368@floodgap.com> > > One box looks like a 2200T CPU, and another is 2200MVP (looks like it is > > sporting 8 terminal ports). The CPUs are the things that look like > > metal suitcases. The 2280 is a removable hard disk unit. The terminal > > is probably a 2236DW. > > It also looks like he has a luggable/portalable in there, maybe a > commodore SX-64? You mean the big black thing with a handle in the left column of pictures, fifth from the top? That's not an SX-64 unless he changed the case out (the handle is wrong, and the SX-64 is a much lighter grey; it also doesn't have those sort of retaining clips). I have no idea what it is really, but it does look interesting ... -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The best defense against logic is ignorance. ------------------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 4 16:17:57 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 14:17:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 04, 2006 02:07:48 PM Message-ID: <200612042217.kB4MHvk9015569@onyx.spiritone.com> > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? I typically pick up a few every year. I've had the best luck at an annual sale that is held locally to support some sort of Scholarship fund. One of my best finds there was a copy of "Mick and Brick". Last year was pretty poor picking for computer books, though several boxes of History books were purchased for the Library. The bulk of my vintage computer books have now been donated to the "Conner Bishop Historical Resource Center" to form the core of the Libraries Computer History section. I would ask anyone thinking of disposing of vintage computer documentation to think of us. http://www.conner-bishop.org Zane From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Dec 4 16:19:06 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 22:19:06 +0000 Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <45749122.8030605@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 4/12/06 21:20, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > I'll dig out the manual tomorrow (I got back to the UK earlier today) if I get > the chance and flick through it for useful info... (amazingly I know which > shelf that one's on, but I'm about ready to fall over here :-) Welcome back to Blighty! I got some goodies for you for do yer back in with, namely the HP Spectrum Analyser and the Xerox 860 which a colleague of mine picked up this morning and rang me up swearing because of the weight :o) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 4 16:59:19 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:59:19 -0700 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4574A847.4020903@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? They keep tossing out the books I wanted before I got there. :( From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 4 17:08:19 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:08:19 -0800 Subject: library book sales Message-ID: <4574AA63.5010602@bitsavers.org> > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? Absolutely. Silicon Valley is one of the best places to be for this. This is where "vswmoretp" on eBay get some of their stuff. There is a whole used book buying/dealing subculture around the book sales out here. Get to know the people at your local library that handle the book sales. If you are after mags like Datamation, you may need to talk to them about saving them for you, since they probably would be recycled otherwise and not even put up for sale, since periodicals don't sell well. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 3 17:56:45 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2006 23:56:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 In-Reply-To: <45725111.9060200@pacbell.net> from "William Maddox" at Dec 2, 6 08:22:41 pm Message-ID: > > David Griffith wrote: > > > Sidenote: how hard would it be to make a paper tape reader and punch from > > scratch? The idea is to have a lightweight unit for playing with my > > SBC6120 and perhaps Altair reissue/clone (if and when I get one). > > Back in the Altair days, there was a company called Oliver Audio Engineering > that made a small optical papertape reader for hobbyist use. You pulled the Incidentally, I am pretty sure the 'special' ICs in this design are nothing more than selected 555 timers (they're used as schmitt triggers). > tape through manually. The read strobe was generated by sensing the sprocket > holes. It would not be difficult to recreate this device, or something > similar. An optical paper tape reader should be fairly easy to make. I would suggest running the tape between rollers (maybe raid parts from a VCR or something) and take a strobe pulse from a phototransistor on the sprocket track, rather than using sprocket feed. > > I think you'd need a machine shop and considerable skill to make a punch from > scratch, While it would not be beyond the capabilities of those folks who build > clocks and engines from scratch, you're best bet is to try to pick up one on The other problem is getting a reasonable life out of it. A good model engineer could make a set of punch pins and a die block, but could he harden them and then grind them to size again? It's one thing to make a punch that will punch a few feet of tape, quite another to make a machine that can be ysed for serious work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 3 18:04:33 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 00:04:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <45730665.60607@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Dec 3, 6 06:16:21 pm Message-ID: > > I want to convert a ASR33 from 110V/50Hz ( yes , 50Hz) to 220V. > > Is it sufficient to swap the motor and fuses ? I have never seen a 230V motor for an ASR33. All the ASR33s I've seen in the UK have 115V motors (and the same rating of fuse that you'd expect for a 115V machine). There's an autotransformer fitted in the stand to get 115V from the 230V mains. That's the change. Incidnetally, for those who haven't seen it, there seems to be a set of Model 33 manuals _including the parts list_ on E-bay at the moment. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 3 18:08:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 00:08:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 3, 6 11:39:40 am Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > [...] I like scheamtics of old > > computers for 2 reasons, firstly to learn how they worked, and secondly > > to be able to repair them if something failes. Only the first is really > > applicable to software, software doesn't fail in the same sense that > > hardware can. > > It fails in the same sense that a hardware design bug would be sitting > there permanently annoying you until you fixed it. Machines tend not > to ship with hardware bugs because they typically aren't useful with > hardware bugs. They do however ship with lots of software bugs, even > on older machines. True. That's why I said 'in the same sense'. It's quite possible for hardware to have worked perfectly for 20 years, and then to stop working (and not work agian until it's repaired) because some component has failed. I think it's very unlikely for software to work fine for 20 years, then crash and not run again because of some latent design bug (unless said software makes use of the real time/date, of course ;-)) -tony From rollerton at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 17:48:17 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 17:48:17 -0600 Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 In-Reply-To: References: <45725111.9060200@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <2789adda0612041548k14f46933w71f18783d3d47e1a@mail.gmail.com> China... On 12/3/06, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > David Griffith wrote: > > > > > Sidenote: how hard would it be to make a paper tape reader and punch > from > > > scratch? The idea is to have a lightweight unit for playing with my > > > SBC6120 and perhaps Altair reissue/clone (if and when I get one). > > > > Back in the Altair days, there was a company called Oliver Audio > Engineering > > that made a small optical papertape reader for hobbyist use. You pulled > the > > Incidentally, I am pretty sure the 'special' ICs in this design are > nothing more than selected 555 timers (they're used as schmitt > triggers). > > > tape through manually. The read strobe was generated by sensing the > sprocket > > holes. It would not be difficult to recreate this device, or something > > similar. > > An optical paper tape reader should be fairly easy to make. I would > suggest running the tape between rollers (maybe raid parts from a VCR or > something) and take a strobe pulse from a phototransistor on the sprocket > track, rather than using sprocket feed. > > > > > I think you'd need a machine shop and considerable skill to make a punch > from > > scratch, While it would not be beyond the capabilities of those folks > who build > > clocks and engines from scratch, you're best bet is to try to pick up > one on > > The other problem is getting a reasonable life out of it. A good model > engineer could make a set of punch pins and a die block, but could he > harden them and then grind them to size again? It's one thing to make a > punch that will punch a few feet of tape, quite another to make a machine > that can be ysed for serious work. > > -tony > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 4 17:51:22 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 23:51:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 4, 6 02:07:48 pm Message-ID: > > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? Well, perhaps not specifically computing, but certianly old technical books... A friend of mine, for example, got me 8 or so volumes of the 'Radiation Lab Seires' from a library clearout at the company where he worked... I bought 'Automatic Digital Computers' for a few pence from a school library sale. Many years later I realised what I'd actually bought :-) And I've had god finds at the public library sales -- things like the ARRL Antenna handbook, several books on Transputers, a programming book for the Motorola 88K, and so on. I will admit to ignoring content-free Mac and Windows books, though. Alas 'good' books have bevome much less common at library sales recently. Perhaps I've already bought them all... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 4 17:54:08 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 23:54:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <45749122.8030605@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Dec 4, 6 03:20:34 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >>> I still have my (almost) fully-loaded Atom > >> I was hoping that by 'fully loaded' you meant that it had the BBC BASIC, > >> Econet and Colour boards :-) (I've never seen a real example of the latter, > >> although I know that there's at least one in the UK) > > > > What does the colour board look like, and where does it fit? > > I can't recall what it looks like now - I've never seen the real board, and > the only photo I knew of was on the 8bs website (which has been down for many > many months now, although it will be coming back one day we're promised!) > > However, from memory, the board intercepted the signals to/from the video IC > socket, and then the Atom's displaced video IC (umm, a 6847 I think) plugged Oh, right (and yes, the video chip is a 6847) > into the colour board itself. I think that the 6847 chip was colour-ready > anyway; it's just that the standard Atom doesn't include the necessary >From what I rememwebr of the 6847 datasheet, it generates the YUV signals for _NTSC_ colour. I guess the colour board converted those to PAL. > circuitry to make use of it (I think the floating point ROM actually contains > the code to make use of the board). I also have a funny feeling that the > colour board didn't provide component RGB - it'd only allow colour via the > modulator and displayed on a TV. That is not suprising. Getting RGB froma a 6847 is a little more complicated. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 4 18:15:48 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 16:15:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061204161415.Y18325@shell.lmi.net> > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? IBM PC Technical Reference Manual MS-DOS Encyclopedia From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 4 18:40:59 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 16:40:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Dec 04, 2006 11:51:22 PM Message-ID: <200612050041.kB50f0He018817@onyx.spiritone.com> > for the Motorola 88K, and so on. I will admit to ignoring content-free > Mac and Windows books, though. > > Alas 'good' books have bevome much less common at library sales recently. > Perhaps I've already bought them all... > > -tony No, the lack of "good" books is because they are all now those "content-free Mac, Windows, and *UNIX* books" with very few exceptions. Thanks to the popularity of Linux you really need to add Unix to the "content-free" catagory. Though most O'Reilly books are still worth picking up, recently I've gotten a lot of good use out of a couple previous version Web related O'Reilly books I picked up earlier in the year at a Library sale (I just happened to have taken a day of vacation and we ran into that sale on accident). Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Dec 4 18:46:06 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 16:46:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <20061204161415.Y18325@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 04, 2006 04:15:48 PM Message-ID: <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> > D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? What percentage of the list just turned green with envy? Zane From fryers at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 19:15:23 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 01:15:23 +0000 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <20061204161415.Y18325@shell.lmi.net> <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 05/12/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? > > What percentage of the list just turned green with envy? 99%, if that low! I have just got hold of a new copy. If I had known what was in them, I would have shelled out for them ages ago. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Dec 4 19:22:56 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 20:22:56 -0500 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4574C9F0.2020202@compsys.to> >Tony Duell wrote: >>On Dec 1, 2006, at 12:26 PM, Richard wrote: >> >> >>>Someone asked me in private email why I'd want to do this -- I >>>consider the source code just as an important historical artifact as >>>the compiled binaries and physical hardware. For the same reason that >>>people want schematics for vintage hardware, having source code for >>>vintage software is also useful. >>> >>> >> Not only useful, but highly educational. A lot of this sort of >> >> > >I would argue software sources are more educational than useful (not that >education is not a very important 'use' :-)). I like scheamtics of old >computers for 2 reasons, firstly to learn how they worked, and secondly >to be able to repair them if something failes. Only the first is really >applicable to software, software doesn't fail in the same sense that >hardware can. > Jerome Fine replies: Actually, I disagree, particularly in regard to design bugs. At one point, I found some code in RT-11 which does not work correctly (specifically in the SL: under mapped monitors). When I attempted to fix the problem, it became apparent that it was a design flaw, not a program error. That led me to check the associated code in the monitor which led me to notice another bug, this one due to a programming error. In both cases, the bugs have been in the code for more than two decades and have probably never been specifically seen as the cause of any crashes - or at least that is what I suspect. If the bug in the monitor ever actually occurred in a running system and caused the system to crash (or something even worse), it would be almost impossible to duplicate and find. So software can also fail in ways that are similar to hardware problems - EXCEPT that software will NEVER develop an entirely new bug called a failure due to age problems whereas hardware will always eventually reach this stage if used long enough. If this latter characteristic is what you refer to as the prime difference between hardware and software, then I agree 100%!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Dec 4 19:30:14 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 18:30:14 -0700 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <4574CBA6.4040309@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? I payed real $$$ for them. I figured I better buy them now before the revised edition comes out. His MIX computer was a classic design -- binary or decmal. His next computer is what I consider a RISC disaster from what I have seen. > What percentage of the list just turned green with envy? > Zane Only if you picked up working hardware for $1. From spc at conman.org Mon Dec 4 20:39:50 2006 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 21:39:50 -0500 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <20061204161415.Y18325@shell.lmi.net> <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20061205023950.GE694@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Zane H. Healy once stated: > > D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? > > What percentage of the list just turned green with envy? Not I (he said, eyeing the three volumes he got for free from a University Library ... ) -spc (True ... and sad ... ) From dave06a at dunfield.com Mon Dec 4 21:46:07 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 22:46:07 -0500 Subject: Paper tape supply, was Re: paper tape for GNT 4601 In-Reply-To: References: <45725111.9060200@pacbell.net> from "William Maddox" at Dec 2, 6 08:22:41 pm Message-ID: <200612050352.kB53qJW3012257@hosting.monisys.ca> > Back in the Altair days, there was a company called Oliver Audio Engineering > that made a small optical papertape reader for hobbyist use. You pulled the > tape through manually. The read strobe was generated by sensing the sprocket > holes. It would not be difficult to recreate this device, or something > similar. I have the OAE-OP80A and it is very simple and quite reliable - in fact I've been using it to recover paper tapes recently. I have photos and a scan of the manual (with schematic) on my site, under the "Misc. Items" section near the bottom of the main page. Btw - I've just received the first shipment of the paper tapes I was promised, including quite a few Cromemco, Dazzler and TDL titles - I will be reading them over the next couple of weeks and will post the data streams to my site. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 20:53:40 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 15:53:40 +1300 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: <20061204161415.Y18325@shell.lmi.net> <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 12/5/06, Simon Fryer wrote: > On 05/12/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? > > > > What percentage of the list just turned green with envy? > > 99%, if that low! Count me green. > I have just got hold of a new copy. If I had known what was in them, I > would have shelled out for them ages ago. I know (in general terms) what's in them, but I haven't been able to bring myself to shell out the full tick. :-/ -ethan P.S. - if I ever get it in my head to "invent a new sort", I know a) to start with Knuth, and b) that I'm almost certainly wrong if I think I have a clever new way to do it. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 4 21:08:00 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 22:08:00 -0500 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: <20061204161415.Y18325@shell.lmi.net> <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Dec 4, 2006, at 9:53 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I have just got hold of a new copy. If I had known what was in >> them, I >> would have shelled out for them ages ago. > > I know (in general terms) what's in them, but I haven't been able to > bring myself to shell out the full tick. :-/ They're worth every penny. > P.S. - if I ever get it in my head to "invent a new sort", I know a) > to start with Knuth, and b) that I'm almost certainly wrong if I think > I have a clever new way to do it. Huh? Who was it that, a hundred or so years ago, asked the gov't to shut down the patent office because, surely, everything had already been invented? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 4 21:08:54 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 20:08:54 -0700 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 04 Dec 2006 20:22:56 -0500. <4574C9F0.2020202@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <4574C9F0.2020202 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > So software can also fail in ways that are similar to hardware > problems - EXCEPT that software will NEVER develop an entirely > new bug called a failure due to age problems whereas hardware > will always eventually reach this stage if used long enough. > If this latter characteristic is what you refer to as the prime > difference between hardware and software, then I agree 100%!!! You mean Bit Rot is a myth? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Dec 4 21:18:11 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 22:18:11 -0500 Subject: library book sales References: <20061204161415.Y18325@shell.lmi.net> <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <00c101c7181b$feaa8480$0b01a8c0@game> > Huh? Who was it that, a hundred or so years ago, asked the gov't > to shut down the patent office because, surely, everything had > already been invented? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Cape Coral, FL That was the guy running the patent office. And everything was invented which is why most new patents are "insert old patent here" + "on the net". Have you seen some of the software and internet patents being given out? If it was up to me there would be NO software patents at all. From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Dec 4 21:34:37 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 21:34:37 -0600 Subject: Wang gear on eBay, 2200, no bids In-Reply-To: <457447B8.20007@pacbell.net> References: <45267.66550.qm@web83003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <457447B8.20007@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4574E8CD.5010203@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > William Maddox wrote: >> There's supposedly a 2200 in there, though there's a >> lot of stuff I don't recognizes. Any Wang fans on the >> list? >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/vintage-COMPUTER-LOT-huge-heavy-WANG-PMI_W0QQitemZ170055531046QQihZ007QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem >> >> eBay: vintage COMPUTER LOT huge & heavy ,WANG ,PMI >> (item 170055531046 end time Dec-05-06 16:51:38 PST) >> >> --Bill ... > One box looks like a 2200T CPU, and another is 2200MVP (looks like it is > sporting 8 terminal ports). The CPUs are the things that look like > metal suitcases. The 2280 is a removable hard disk unit. The terminal > is probably a 2236DW. I missed one. Back in the upper left corner of the first picture in the auction looks like an LVP (mvp in a different form factor along with an 8" fixed disk and an 8" floppy). You can see a picture of an LVP on my web site: http://www.wang2200.org/images/cpu_lvp.jpg So now it looks like there are at least four CPU's there. Looking at the first picture -- the 2200LVP in the upper left corner the "suitcase" on the ground in the foreground could be a 2200T (1st gen single user), 2200VP (2nd gen single user), or 2200MVP (2nd gen, multiuser). it is hard to tell from that angle the suitcase in the middle right is a 2200T the suitcase on the right in back is a 2200MVP You can tell the 2nd generation from the 1st generation because the cards are bigger so Wang retrofitted old cases with a taller cover panel to accomodate the extra card height. You can tell an MVP from a VP because the MVP will have one or more cards with four serial port connectors. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 4 21:41:19 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 19:41:19 -0800 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <457479DF.30766.2530BC74@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Dec 2006 at 20:08, Jerome Fine wrote: > So software can also fail in ways that are similar to hardware > problems - EXCEPT that software will NEVER develop an entirely > new bug called a failure due to age problems whereas hardware > will always eventually reach this stage if used long enough. > If this latter characteristic is what you refer to as the prime > difference between hardware and software, then I agree 100%!!! But that doesn't imply that time's not an enemy of software! Obsolescence is the biggest enemy--try making a single MS-DOS 2,1 C: partition on that new 250GB drive. In the 70's and early 80's, it wasn't unsual to find programs that don't deal with dates after 1999. A program may have worked well for more than 20 years suddenly becomes useless when the century changes. Old programs using program loops to introduce a small delay. On an XT, the following loop takes more than a second to execute: MOV CX, 0FFFFh Here: LOOP Here Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Mon Dec 4 21:48:59 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 22:48:59 -0500 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? Message-ID: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Whether vintage computer parts, electronics, or whatever .... just thought it would be a fun discussion thread. Rumor has it that the Chanukah fairy* is bringing a cold air intake kit for my Miata. Extra 25 horsepower. Fun!! :) - Evan * Hey, we don't have Santa, okay? From josefcub at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 21:53:40 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 21:53:40 -0600 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? In-Reply-To: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <9e2403920612041953m5519a71coeca502ac8901e3a9@mail.gmail.com> Evan, On 12/4/06, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Whether vintage computer parts, electronics, or whatever .... just thought > it would be a fun discussion thread. I'm getting another HP 95LX palmtop, with memory cards and sync cable (two things I lack), from Santa. If I'm really lucky, Santa says he'll bring me a 500mm prime telephoto for my Canon FTb, too. =) Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From josefcub at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 21:54:51 2006 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 21:54:51 -0600 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? In-Reply-To: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <9e2403920612041954u4b9535d3q3e2168516e05f2c5@mail.gmail.com> On 12/4/06, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > * Hey, we don't have Santa, okay? > Santa, the Chanukah fairy*, the Yule Fairy, St. Nicholas... It's all about Coca Cola to me. *joking* -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 4 21:55:39 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 21:55:39 -0600 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? References: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <9e2403920612041953m5519a71coeca502ac8901e3a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <032e01c71821$3cdb4960$6600a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > On 12/4/06, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Whether vintage computer parts, electronics, or whatever .... just >> thought >> it would be a fun discussion thread. eeesh... let's keep the thread at LEAST on classic computer related toys! Jay From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Dec 4 22:25:19 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 20:25:19 -0800 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <4574F4AF.4020800@msm.umr.edu> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? >> >> > >What percentage of the list just turned green with envy? > >Zane > > I did that at Fullerton, Ca. library sale. I recently got several very good Architechure books (Compter style) at Cypress, CA.'s sale last summer, including one which covered one of my interests, the Microdata 3200. Also covered was the way that the 360 firmware (360/50) was modified to run CPS, which I used at UMR in college. I was amazed to find two things that were so close to my interest at a random book sale event. My favorite was not at a Library book sale, but a Micro Center some years ago. They decided to start thinning out books in there book section, which used to be quite good, and started by marking all the K&R's down to $5.00 each. And those were the second edition ones. I bought them all, of course. BTW, at least here in Orange county they have decimated their once excellent book section for a huge flashy game display room. I can't blame them, but they are such bozos of marketing, I wish they would have kept the books anyway. I wonder how they survive againt the likes of Fry's and Comp USA (Fry's anyway). I do have to admire them for being persistant. Just wish they had not destroyed the book section. Down here in the Orange county area, the only book store that had had technical books of any use was Irvine Science and Technical books, but they closed their storefront and got some totally different domain name and went internet, as has OpAmp in LA. So now it is all amazon, i guess, with no useful place to stroll the aisles. Jim From evan at snarc.net Mon Dec 4 22:30:47 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 23:30:47 -0500 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <4574F4AF.4020800@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <003601c71826$22bfaf80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Micro Center isn't great, but I remember it being terrific (when I used to live in Cambridge) vs. CompUSA where I live now in New Jersey. I wish we had Micro Center or Frys here!!! There's a place nearby in Manhattan called Computer Book Works which has a great selection but it's expensive. That also makes me miss Cambridge -- there was Quantum Books, the MIT Press Bookstore, and the MIT Coop Bookstore all within one square (errr, triangular) block. -----Original Message----- From: jim stephens [mailto:jwstephens at msm.umr.edu] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 11:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: library book sales Zane H. Healy wrote: >>D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? >> >> > >What percentage of the list just turned green with envy? > >Zane > > I did that at Fullerton, Ca. library sale. I recently got several very good Architechure books (Compter style) at Cypress, CA.'s sale last summer, including one which covered one of my interests, the Microdata 3200. Also covered was the way that the 360 firmware (360/50) was modified to run CPS, which I used at UMR in college. I was amazed to find two things that were so close to my interest at a random book sale event. My favorite was not at a Library book sale, but a Micro Center some years ago. They decided to start thinning out books in there book section, which used to be quite good, and started by marking all the K&R's down to $5.00 each. And those were the second edition ones. I bought them all, of course. BTW, at least here in Orange county they have decimated their once excellent book section for a huge flashy game display room. I can't blame them, but they are such bozos of marketing, I wish they would have kept the books anyway. I wonder how they survive againt the likes of Fry's and Comp USA (Fry's anyway). I do have to admire them for being persistant. Just wish they had not destroyed the book section. Down here in the Orange county area, the only book store that had had technical books of any use was Irvine Science and Technical books, but they closed their storefront and got some totally different domain name and went internet, as has OpAmp in LA. So now it is all amazon, i guess, with no useful place to stroll the aisles. Jim From marvin at rain.org Mon Dec 4 22:43:14 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 20:43:14 -0800 Subject: ebay dilema Message-ID: <4574F8E2.9DA93E17@rain.org> > From: "Teo Zenios" > What do you do when you buy a small lot of items, a piece that you wanted is not included (shown in the picture and > stated in the inventory), and the seller does not respond to your questions (but you paid very little for the lot and > there was a couple extra things included)? What would you people do? For some reason, a number of people feel that spam filters are okay on their ebay email address. Others seem to feel that it is okay to check their email every week or two. You haven't said how long you've been waiting, but I would suggest at least a week. Personally, unless it was something important, I'd just forget it, and leave neutral feedback saying the piece you wanted wasn't included, but there were extra things. From curtis at hawkmountain.net Mon Dec 4 14:20:59 2006 From: curtis at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 15:20:59 -0500 Subject: PDP11 adventures Message-ID: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> OK... so I'm now the new (proud :-) ) owner of a PDP-11/83. I'm new to the PDP11s, so, I'm not even powering this thing up until I get educated. This is the config In the system (183QA-D2) box: M8637-EF (2MB ECC RAM) M8190-AE (11/83 CPU, FPJ11-AA) X, M9047 (nothing, grant continuity) M7196 (TSV05 controller) M7555, M9047 (RQDX3 MFM Winchester/floppy, grant continuity) M7513, M9404 (RQDXE RQDX extender for RQDX2/3, Q22 extender cpu end) X (nothing) X (nothing) In the BA23-CA expansion: M9405-YB, M9047 (Q22 extender far end, grant continuity) M8053-MA (RS232/423 w/DDCMP) M3104 (8 line ASYNC multiplexer) M3104 (8 line ASYNC multiplexer) M77651, M7555 (DRV11-WA 18/22 bit dma general purpose parallel interface, RQDX3) M7651, M7546 (DRV11-WA, TKQ50-AA TMSCP for TK50 controller) X (nothing) X (nothing) I recieved this with 1 TK50 drive in the BA23, no hard drives (I have a decent selection of MFM drives, but if anyone has any spare Maxtor XT2190 or XT1140s let me know). Anyone got any DEC drive sleds ? I could use 4. Also have a 'port panel' that wen on the rear of the rack these two boxes were pulled from... and a large cache of ribbon cables to connect everything up. Now... for questions: is FPJ11-AA floating point, and does that mean my cpu card has that built in ? What is the max ram ? i.e. how many more M8637-EF (or higher capacity) cards can be aquired and put in ? Anyone have a TSV05 tape drive local to Sharon, MA ? Or, anyone in need of a TSV05 controller ? What is DDCMP control ROM ? that my M8053-MA has ? What is a DRV11-WA general purpose 18/22 bit parallel interface ? Can this be used for a parallel printer ??? As I'd like to have larger storage on it at some point, I'd like to locate a SCSI (or possibly ESDI ?) controller. What should I be looking for, anyone have one ? I'm looking at running BSD (2.11 ?) and other PDP11 OSes... suggestions ? There doesn't seem to be a reason to the layout of the grant continuity cards. Shouldn't there be one in the left side of the 3rd slot from the top in the 183QA-D2 (system unit) ? What is the minimum card config to start testing with ? Any pointers on how the RQDX3 and RQDXE cards should wire up ? The RQDXE in the system unit has a wide ribbon cable running to the front (which I presume breaks into the control/data wiring for an MFM drive there).. but the RQDX3 doesn't connect to the RQDXE .. Sorry for the long post... I'm new to PDP11... Oh.. last thing... does anyone local to Sharon, MA 02067 have a 'proper' DEC RAC enclosure the is 'correct'/'period' for a PDP-11/83 ? (not full size please... this 11/83 is in my 2nd floor computer room... I currently do not want a full height 19" rack in there... something deskside size plz). Thnk that covers it for now. Thanks in adance everyone, -- Curt From irisworld at mac.com Mon Dec 4 15:14:47 2006 From: irisworld at mac.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 16:14:47 -0500 Subject: ebay dilema In-Reply-To: <457416BB.1225.23AD7BC2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <003601c717e2$5c3cba80$0b01a8c0@game> <457416BB.1225.23AD7BC2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Dec 4, 2006, at 3:56 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article <003601c717e2$5c3cba80$0b01a8c0 at game>, > "Teo Zenios" writes: > >> [...] What would you people do? > > Use negative feedback? > > Not delivering goods advertised in the sale (both in the listing and > in photographs) is a big no-no for ebay, even if the price of the > auction is small. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! On Dec 4, 2006, at 3:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 4 Dec 2006 at 15:25, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> What do you do when you buy a small lot of items, a piece that you >> wanted is not included (shown in the picture and stated in the >> inventory), and the seller does not respond to your questions (but >> you >> paid very little for the lot and there was a couple extra things >> included)? What would you people do? > > Did you pay with PayPal? If so, you may want to file a claim against > the seller. That puts the burden of proof on him, not you. Unless > otherwise stated, pictures show what's being offered for sale. > That's an eBay policy. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > I posted both of these response to save time. These are fine suggestions but honestly there's not really a whole lot you can do. Realize that negative feedback might get you negative feedback in return. I know, I know. How dare they? Well, the reality is: they do. As for Paypal, they don't really care too much. You can file a complaint that says it's not what you expected, BUT they don't hold themselves responsible for you being satisfied - UNLESS - you paid for the buyers insurance. Then you might be able to do something. Other then that, the complaint is closed just as fast as it's opened. You could always request the buyers information from eBay and give (he / she) a call. It's probably about your only recourse if they won't answer your email. Rob Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 5 00:07:55 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 00:07:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612050041.kB50f0He018817@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200612050041.kB50f0He018817@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: > No, the lack of "good" books is because they are all now those > "content-free Mac, Windows, and *UNIX* books" with very few exceptions. > Thanks to the popularity of Linux you really need to add Unix to the > "content-free" catagory. Though most O'Reilly books are still worth > picking up, recently I've gotten a lot of good use out of a couple > previous version Web related O'Reilly books I picked up earlier in the > year at a Library sale (I just happened to have taken a day of vacation > and we ran into that sale on accident). I often look for O'Reilly books while at the booksales. Wiley and Addison Wesley are also good to look for. I have a few local 'secret' sources for O'Reilly and other books which I won't divulge, mainly because they will sell me the overstock/remainder books for $1-3/each, so once or twice a year, I get to load up a shopping cart with good books :) -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 5 00:09:20 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 00:09:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <4574A847.4020903@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4574A847.4020903@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, woodelf wrote: > Richard wrote: > >> Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via >> library book sales? > > They keep tossing out the books I wanted before I got there. :( Volunteer to help sort books before the sale? -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 5 00:11:01 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 00:11:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Richard wrote: > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? I did years ago, not as much these days. I did end up with some very useful software too, even a boxed copy of Procomm Plus 2.0 for dos. -Toth From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 5 00:15:44 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2006 22:15:44 -0800 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <4574F4AF.4020800@msm.umr.edu> References: <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> <4574F4AF.4020800@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: At 8:25 PM -0800 12/4/06, jim stephens wrote: >My favorite was not at a Library book sale, but a Micro Center some years ago. > >They decided to start thinning out books in there book section, which used to >be quite good, and started by marking all the K&R's down to $5.00 each. And >those were the second edition ones. I bought them all, of course. I vaguely remember the Micro Center in the Washington DC area around '93, though I was only able to get there once, maybe twice in the three years I was stationed there. I picked up OS/2 2.0, a couple books, and a CD-ROM of questionable information (some good classic computer info on it though). The strange thing is among all the computer books and magazines, I also found a RPG magazine. >Down here in the Orange county area, the only book store that had had >technical books of any use was Irvine Science and Technical books, but >they closed their storefront and got some totally different domain name and >went internet, as has OpAmp in LA. So now it is all amazon, i guess, with >no useful place to stroll the aisles. Sounds like I'm lucky to live in the land of Powells Books, though I have to avoid going to the main store, or the Technical bookstore out of fear for my wallet. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Dec 5 00:26:59 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 00:26:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: ebay dilema In-Reply-To: References: <003601c717e2$5c3cba80$0b01a8c0@game> <457416BB.1225.23AD7BC2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Robert Borsuk wrote: > I posted both of these response to save time. These are fine > suggestions but honestly there's not really a whole lot you can do. > Realize that negative feedback might get you negative feedback in > return. I know, I know. How dare they? Well, the reality is: they > do. As for Paypal, they don't really care too much. You can file a > complaint that says it's not what you expected, BUT they don't hold > themselves responsible for you being satisfied - UNLESS - you paid for > the buyers insurance. Then you might be able to do something. Other > then that, the complaint is closed just as fast as it's opened. You > could always request the buyers information from eBay and give (he / > she) a call. It's probably about your only recourse if they won't > answer your email. Actually, there are ways to deal with it, but leaving a negative feedback should be a very, very last resort option. Once a negative feedback is left, a seller usually won't work with you and won't care to resolve the problem. First, calling the seller is indeed a good idea. If that doesn't help, then file a complaint via Paypal. If the normal complaint processes don't work, call Paypal (888) 221-1161 and ask for a supervisor, they'll dance around and not want to transfer you, but once you get one, ask for someone in the executive escalations department. They *really* won't want to transfer you there, but those are the only people that can really get things done at Paypal. If the seller really warrants it, call eBay directly (800) 322-9266 or (888) 749-3229 and ask the operator (option 3) for Customer Service. You'll be on hold a long time, but tell the CSR what happened and they'll most likely add a note about the incident in the seller's account records. After enough incidents, eBay will get rid of the seller. (And yes, I've had my fair share of both bad sellers and bad buyers. In fact, I have one seller I'm about to file a mail fraud report on as I just got the remaining paperwork from the USPS last week.) -Toth From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Dec 5 00:55:29 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 01:55:29 -0500 Subject: library book sales References: <200612050041.kB50f0He018817@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <011901c7183a$5a32d8c0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 1:07 AM Subject: Re: library book sales > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > No, the lack of "good" books is because they are all now those > > "content-free Mac, Windows, and *UNIX* books" with very few exceptions. > > Thanks to the popularity of Linux you really need to add Unix to the > > "content-free" catagory. Though most O'Reilly books are still worth > > picking up, recently I've gotten a lot of good use out of a couple > > previous version Web related O'Reilly books I picked up earlier in the > > year at a Library sale (I just happened to have taken a day of vacation > > and we ran into that sale on accident). > > I often look for O'Reilly books while at the booksales. Wiley and Addison > Wesley are also good to look for. I have a few local 'secret' sources for > O'Reilly and other books which I won't divulge, mainly because they will > sell me the overstock/remainder books for $1-3/each, so once or twice a > year, I get to load up a shopping cart with good books :) > > -Toth Do you see many older engineering books from the 1930's? I always found those interesting. Haven't been to a library booksale for ages, they usually just sell books donated to them don't they or do they sell things from their shelves? I collect military history books as well as older computer ones, just don't have much space for more books at the moment. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Dec 5 01:06:09 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 07:06:09 +0000 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45751A61.3000202@dunnington.plus.com> Richard wrote: > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? Sometimes. There's an annual book sale here, with books from a number of academic and public libraries collected together. I picked up a copy of 101 BASIC Computer Games for 1.00UKP once, some Best of Creative Computing, several books on programming languages, a few books on microprocessors, computer architecture, and bit-slice design, some data books, books by Marvin Minsky and others, and a couple of DEC handbooks, amongst many others. Of course, it takes patience to sift through the outdated Windows manuals, alternative "science", and all the other stuff these sales have. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 5 01:23:02 2006 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 07:23:02 +0000 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? In-Reply-To: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <45751E56.3080400@philpem.me.uk> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Whether vintage computer parts, electronics, or whatever .... just thought > it would be a fun discussion thread. I just blew most of my budget on a new digital camera - a Canon EOS 400D (Digital Rebel XTi). It's a nice camera, but buying it has thinned my wallet considerably... I did get some nice pictures out of it though - . Shame it's been alternating between freezing cold, cloudy, and heavy rain (and combinations thereof) all week. Not exactly prime photography weather... I'm hoping to get a 70-200mm lens for the 400D later on this month, and maybe a new TFT monitor (the antiglare coating on my Mitsubishi CRT has failed, and it's picking up a nasty static charge while it's running - switching it off results in me getting zapped). To be honest though, the one thing I do want is the Jupiter Ace motherboard I asked Lee Davison to repair. He seems to be actively ignoring my emails and I've lost his snail-mail address... > Rumor has it that the Chanukah fairy* is bringing a cold air intake kit for > my Miata. Extra 25 horsepower. Fun!! :) > * Hey, we don't have Santa, okay? That's OK. Not everyone does - frankly I couldn't give a hoot. The winter holiday is becoming rather over-commercialised IMO. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Dec 5 02:27:33 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 08:27:33 +0000 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? In-Reply-To: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: On 5/12/06 03:48, "Evan Koblentz" wrote: > Whether vintage computer parts, electronics, or whatever .... just thought > it would be a fun discussion thread. Hopefully, either one or two Hungarian Videoton TVComputers, aka a locally re-engineered version of the Enterprise 64 that the country's biggest domestic appliance manufacturer took on when Enterprise UK went down in 1985/6. Videoton had already been making their own version of some of the Enterprise peripherals so I guess coming up with their own design of the machine was logical, and it'll be interesting to see how they did equivalents of the two specialised sound and video chips in the Enterprise. Enterprise page (hopelessly outdated): http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Enterprise/index.php Pic of the TVC: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Enterprise/tvc.jpg > Rumor has it that the Chanukah fairy* is bringing a cold air intake kit for > my Miata. Extra 25 horsepower. Fun!! :) Can't you just leave the hood up? :oD -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From trag at io.com Tue Dec 5 02:35:00 2006 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 02:35:00 -0600 Subject: Mac IIfx SIMMs, Continued from about 1 year ago... In-Reply-To: <200612050640.kB56eNIJ013158@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612050640.kB56eNIJ013158@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Leaving out a lot of stuff over the last year that probably no-one wants to read about, I finally built some 16MB SIMMs for the Mac IIfx. Suffice it to say that I took a circuitous route to getting my boards made and there were many layouts along the way. The IIfx uses an oddball 64 pin SIMM which is nearly identical to 30 pin SIMMs, *except* the data-out and data-in busses are separate. This allows the memory controller to latch the data for writes, signal the CPU that the transaction is complete in two cycles, and then proceed with the actual write to RAM. Since the write data is sitting in a little buffer-to-SIMM cul'de'sac it does not interfere with other use of the data bus. Memory chips which are X 1 memory chips (e.g. 16M X 1) have separate data in and data out pins, though in most SIMMs, they're simply tied together and run to the SIMM data bus. I had a small supply of 16M X 1 chips on hand, so first I built some 16MB SIMMs with eight 16M X 1 chips each. That was very straight-forward, no surprises and worked fine. That is not the interesting part. Next I built some SIMMs out of 16M X 4 memory chips, of which I have a much larger supply. The problem with 16M X 4 chips for this application is that they do not have separate data-in and data-out pins. They have combined D/Q pins. This presents a problem as simply tieing them together would mean that the buffered writes would interfere with other activity on the data bus. Most of the discussion a year ago was how to get around that problem. I finally tested it. This is the (I hope) interesting part. My first idea was to use a pair of octal buffers per SIMM, such as the TI SN74ABT241. Four of the eight buffers are controlled by an active_low OE and four of them are controlled by an active_high OE. This makes it convenient to use one buffer per 16M X 4 chip. I planned to use WE_ to control the buffers. The active_low buffers would route data from the D/Q chip pins to the SIMM data_in pins. The active_high buffers would route data from the D/Q chip pins to the SIMM data_out pins. Before trying it I realized that the flaw in this plan was that when the output of the memory chips is high-Z (high impedance/no signal) the buffer would still be trying to drive some deterministic output onto the data bus as long as WE was high. My next thought was to invert CAS and logically AND it with WE to control the data_out buffers. The data_in buffers would still be controlled by WE alone. That way the data_out pins of the SIMM would only be driven when there was actually a Read taking place. However, the timing on this looks wonky. Data out from a read is usually held a while after CAS goes high again, but this scheme would cut off the data_out signal (switch back to high-Z) very shortly after CAS goes high. My third idea was to ask this list if there was some component that would just pass the signal along, including high-Z signals. Someone pointed me at a family of components which led me to FET Bus Switches. So an octal bus switch such as the SN74CBT3244 looked like a good option. The only problem with the SN74CBT3244 is that both OEs are active low (each OE controls four of the eight switches). I wish there was a SN74CBT3241 with one active low and one active high OE. So, I simply controlled the OE for the data_in pins with the WE signal and controlled the OE for the data_out pins with the inverted WE signal. SC-70 packaged inverters are *tiny*. Ultimately, the SIMMS based on 16M X 4 chips with two SN74CBT3244 octal switches controlled by WE and inverted WE switching between data_in and data_out worked. The other two configurations using the SN74ABT241 octal buffers did not work. I tried both control configurations. I tried two different assemblies. And when the second one did not work, I converted it to the SN74CBT3244 configuration just to test whether the memory chips were good. After the conversion to the workable control circuitry the SIMM worked. So, unless I received a bad batch of SN74ABT241 chips, I'd say that the Bus Switching scheme works and the Buffer scheme does not work. When I tested my first SN74CBT3244 controlled SIMM I placed it in the D24 - D31 SIMM socket, while the other three SIMMs were the conventional ones built from 16M X 1 chips. It almost booted, but not quite. Moving the SN74CBT3244 controlled SIMM to any of the other three sockets resulted in it working, but it would not work in that one socket. Hoping that the problem had something to do with combining SIMMs of such different components, I built a second SN74CBT3244 controlled SIMM. With that one installed in the D16 - D23 socket, the original in the D24 - D31 socket and the other two sockets with 16M X 1 based SIMMs the machine booted and passed memory tests. Similarly the machine works fine with three and four of the SN74CBT3244 controlled SIMMs installed. Any idea why it would not work when just one SIMM was different and installed in that one socket? Much of the IIfx's peripherals seem to use only 8 bits and the 8 bits they use appear to be D24 - D31, so I would guess it has something to do with that. Also, I've always heard/read that when a machine needs four SIMMs at a time, one should install SIMMs of the same manufacture and composition. But why is that true, electrically and logically? If the SIMMs meet timing specification, shouldn't they work together even if they're built of wildly different components? What difference does it make if some SIMMs are 60 ns and others are effectively 70ns if the machine requires 80ns and so they're all meeting spec? Or why should it matter if some SIMMs have a bit more drive current or sink a bit more current on writes than others, as long as they are all within specfications? Yet it seems that it matters. Why? I could understand it if some memory chips were 13 X 11 addressed and others were 12 X 12, but these are *all* 12 X 12, so that is not the issue here. So why should combining SIMMs built from 16X1 chips with SIMMs built from 16X4 chips not work in some configurations? Yet when placed in like groups they work fine? Jeff Walther From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Tue Dec 5 02:52:00 2006 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 03:52:00 -0500 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <003601c71826$22bfaf80$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: Evan, There is a Micro Center in Villanova here right by Philly. Greg -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 11:31 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: library book sales Micro Center isn't great, but I remember it being terrific (when I used to live in Cambridge) vs. CompUSA where I live now in New Jersey. I wish we had Micro Center or Frys here!!! There's a place nearby in Manhattan called Computer Book Works which has a great selection but it's expensive. That also makes me miss Cambridge -- there was Quantum Books, the MIT Press Bookstore, and the MIT Coop Bookstore all within one square (errr, triangular) block. -----Original Message----- From: jim stephens [mailto:jwstephens at msm.umr.edu] Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 11:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: library book sales Zane H. Healy wrote: >>D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? >> >> > >What percentage of the list just turned green with envy? > >Zane > > I did that at Fullerton, Ca. library sale. I recently got several very good Architechure books (Compter style) at Cypress, CA.'s sale last summer, including one which covered one of my interests, the Microdata 3200. Also covered was the way that the 360 firmware (360/50) was modified to run CPS, which I used at UMR in college. I was amazed to find two things that were so close to my interest at a random book sale event. My favorite was not at a Library book sale, but a Micro Center some years ago. They decided to start thinning out books in there book section, which used to be quite good, and started by marking all the K&R's down to $5.00 each. And those were the second edition ones. I bought them all, of course. BTW, at least here in Orange county they have decimated their once excellent book section for a huge flashy game display room. I can't blame them, but they are such bozos of marketing, I wish they would have kept the books anyway. I wonder how they survive againt the likes of Fry's and Comp USA (Fry's anyway). I do have to admire them for being persistant. Just wish they had not destroyed the book section. Down here in the Orange county area, the only book store that had had technical books of any use was Irvine Science and Technical books, but they closed their storefront and got some totally different domain name and went internet, as has OpAmp in LA. So now it is all amazon, i guess, with no useful place to stroll the aisles. Jim From jvdg at sparcpark.net Tue Dec 5 04:04:45 2006 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (jvdg at sparcpark.net) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 11:04:45 +0100 Subject: Mac IIfx SIMMs, Continued from about 1 year ago... Message-ID: <1xkg18cr3e335jn.051220061104@jvdg.com> Jeff Walther wrote: > Leaving out a lot of stuff over the last year that probably no-one > wants to read about, I finally built some 16MB SIMMs for the Mac IIfx. [...] That is great news. Will you be making your schematics and PCB designs public? I have two RAM-starved IIfx's here that could be put to good use with a little memory added. ,xtG tsooJ From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Dec 5 02:47:10 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 08:47:10 +0000 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? In-Reply-To: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <4575320E.7070306@gjcp.net> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Whether vintage computer parts, electronics, or whatever .... just thought > it would be a fun discussion thread. Not sure if it counts, but I get to buy the bits to make a battery belt for my JVC KY-15/BR-S411E camera and dockable recorder. Hey, it's a classic broadcast camera! Incidentally if anyone's got the workshop manual for the BR-S411E S-VHS recorder, or the BR-S411U NTSC version, give me a shout. > Rumor has it that the Chanukah fairy* is bringing a cold air intake kit for > my Miata. Extra 25 horsepower. Fun!! :) Ah. Well, today I get to jack up the CX and see if it really does have a cracked lower hub mounting. There's a horrible scraping noise from down around the front wheel that started very suddenly. Seems even lovely soft oleopneumatic suspension can't save it from Glasgow's potholes... Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Dec 5 02:54:59 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 08:54:59 +0000 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? In-Reply-To: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <457533E3.2070802@gjcp.net> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Whether vintage computer parts, electronics, or whatever .... just thought > it would be a fun discussion thread. Oh, forgot to mention - just to bring it vaguely on topic, although I posted too soon (lack of morning coffee) - I will be firing up my ZX Spectrum once my sister and her bf come round here, for that authentic "Christmas 1983" touch. Then we're going to watch Wargames, and listen to Now That's What I Call Music! on vinyl. Or not. Probably not the music bit, anyway. Gordon. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 05:12:46 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 00:12:46 +1300 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? In-Reply-To: <457533E3.2070802@gjcp.net> References: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <457533E3.2070802@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 12/5/06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Oh, forgot to mention - just to bring it vaguely on topic, although I > posted too soon (lack of morning coffee) - I will be firing up my ZX > Spectrum... My hosts here in Christchurch have a ZX Spectrum... any pointers to some interesting Xmas-related demos I could aquire via the 'net? (thinking along the lines of the classic C-64 Xmas in-store-windows program from Xmas '82). -ethan From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Dec 5 06:06:53 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 13:06:53 +0100 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-12-04 at 15:20 -0500, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > OK... so I'm now the new (proud :-) ) owner of a PDP-11/83. Congratulations!! > I recieved this with 1 TK50 drive in the BA23, no hard drives (I have a > decent > selection of MFM drives, but if anyone has any spare Maxtor XT2190 or > XT1140s > let me know). Anyone got any DEC drive sleds ? I could use 4. In my BA123 the disks have been screwed into the sled slot, I don't know if this is doable with the BA23. > is FPJ11-AA floating point, and does that mean my cpu card has that > built in ? Yes, the PDP-11/83 CPU has built-in floating-point. > What is the max ram ? i.e. how many more M8637-EF (or higher capacity) > cards can be aquired and put in ? The maximum amount of RAM you can put in a PDP-11 is 4 MB. 2MB should be plenty for everything but 2.11BSD - in which case it is merely sufficient. You also seem to have PMI memory, which means that memory accesses go via the private memory interconnect rather than the main I/O bus. Many PDP-11/83s (like mine :\) came with QBUS memory. > Anyone have a TSV05 tape drive local to Sharon, MA ? Or, anyone in need of > a TSV05 controller ? The TSV05 is, I believe, a Pertec controller (which shipped with a Cipher M890/M891 or something thereabouts badged as a TSV05). It should work with any Pertec tape drive. > What is DDCMP control ROM ? that my M8053-MA has ? Something related to DECnet over serial ports, that's all I know about that, though I could guess that it's used for network booting. > What is a DRV11-WA general purpose 18/22 bit parallel interface ? Can > this be used for a parallel printer ??? It is general purpose.. :) I think this is just 64 bidirectional I/O ports which can be used for most things, I have two or three myself, but I haven't toyed with them. Never tried putting a Centronics cable on it. > As I'd like to have larger storage on it at some point, I'd like to > locate a SCSI > (or possibly ESDI ?) controller. What should I be looking for, anyone have > one ? The SCSI controllers are relatively hard to come by, but the Emulex DQ07 (iirc) seems to be one of the most common, and is the one I have. > I'm looking at running BSD (2.11 ?) and other PDP11 OSes... suggestions ? 2.11 will run happily on your machine, if you give it disk space enough. > There doesn't seem to be a reason to the layout of the grant continuity > cards. > Shouldn't there be one in the left side of the 3rd slot from the top in > the 183QA-D2 > (system unit) ? > > What is the minimum card config to start testing with ? CPU. The CPU has a built-in serial port and will give out a diagnostic if it cannot find RAM. > Any pointers on how the RQDX3 and RQDXE cards should wire up ? The > RQDXE in the system unit has a wide ribbon cable running to the front > (which I presume breaks into the control/data wiring for an MFM drive > there).. but the RQDX3 doesn't connect to the RQDXE .. IIRC, my RQDXE does connect with the wide ribbon cable to the RQDX3. The connectors for the MFM and FD are on the RQDXE itself. > Sorry for the long post... I'm new to PDP11... No problem, hope you'll have fun with it. :) -Tore From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 06:27:57 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 01:27:57 +1300 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 12/6/06, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > On Mon, 2006-12-04 at 15:20 -0500, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > OK... so I'm now the new (proud :-) ) owner of a PDP-11/83. > > Congratulations!! Indeed - nicely loaded machine. > > Anyone got any DEC drive sleds ? I could use 4. > > In my BA123 the disks have been screwed into the sled slot, I don't know > if this is doable with the BA23. I don't know either... I've only ever used sleds with a BA23. I haven't tried it myself, but it may be possible to fabricate something close enough to work with ordinary shop tools and a sheet of plexiglass/perspex. Has anyone on the list ever tried to make DEC drive sleds from scratch? > > What is DDCMP control ROM ? that my M8053-MA has ? > > Something related to DECnet over serial ports, that's all I know about > that, though I could guess that it's used for network booting. I would think it's to boot the machine over DDCMP from a MOP server, but I don't have any direct experience with it. > > What is a DRV11-WA general purpose 18/22 bit parallel interface ? Can > > this be used for a parallel printer ??? > > It is general purpose.. :) I think this is just 64 bidirectional I/O > ports which can be used for most things, I have two or three myself, but > I haven't toyed with them. Never tried putting a Centronics cable on it. It's just unformatted parallel I/O with, ISTR, handshaking lines. You might be able to hook a parallel printer to one, but there's a good chance you'd need to invert one or more of the handshake lines, and you'd probably have to write your own driver to emulate an LPV11, but with DRV11-W I/O instructions. They were commonly used for a wide channel CPU-to-CPU interface, or to attach strange peripherals that had no Qbus interfaces. I don't recall ever seeing them used as printer ports (the PIO-driven LPV11 being much cheaper at the time). > > As I'd like to have larger storage on it at some point, I'd like to > > locate a SCSI > > (or possibly ESDI ?) controller. What should I be looking for, anyone have > > one ? > > The SCSI controllers are relatively hard to come by, but the Emulex DQ07 > (iirc) seems to be one of the most common, and is the one I have. Viking and CMD controllers were also common, IIRC. Unless you have a small quantity of ESDI drives, I'd suggest you be on the lookout for a Qbus SCSI controller. They aren't usually under $250 US, but even at that price (if it hasn't gone up recently), the ability to use more modern drives is rather nice unless you are more interested in a 100% vintage arrangement from before the time of SCSI (by the time the 11/83 came around, SCSI drives weren't that rare on DEC machines, but the controllers never were inexpensive). > > I'm looking at running BSD (2.11 ?) and other PDP11 OSes... suggestions ? > > 2.11 will run happily on your machine, if you give it disk space enough. 2BSD is a nice choice if you want Unix. RT-11 was common for smaller systems, and RSX-11/M and RSTS were common for larger configurations. If you aren't married to Unix, RT-11 is simple enough to pick up quickly, especially if you have much MS-DOS or CP/M experience. I went the other way - RT-11 first, then CP/M... made learning to get around on a Kaypro a snap. There are lesser-known PDP-11 OSes, but between Unix and RT-11, you should have plenty to play around with. -ethan From RMeenaks at olf.com Tue Dec 5 07:16:48 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 08:16:48 -0500 Subject: REQUEST: Looking for a VME64x backplane or chassis Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B0EEA@cpexchange.olf.com> I need a true 5-pin VME64x backplane or chassis for my VME-based UltraSPARC system. Does anyone have any? I do have a VME chassis, but it is the standard 3-pin VME which will not help me... Thanks, Ram From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 5 07:25:27 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 07:25:27 -0600 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? In-Reply-To: References: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <457533E3.2070802@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45757347.1070303@yahoo.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > My hosts here in Christchurch have a ZX Spectrum... any pointers to > some interesting Xmas-related demos I could aquire via the 'net? > (thinking along the lines of the classic C-64 Xmas in-store-windows > program from Xmas '82). Hmm, not quite a demo, but the guy who wrote the Monty Mole series of games did a one-off Christmas game called, I think, 'Moley Christmas' for the cover of one of the popular Spectrum mags of the time (either Crash or Your Sinclair). If you're into platform games then tracking that down might be an idea... (I've almost certainly still got it on tape *somewhere* so could look into finding it and converting it to mp3 or whatever if needed) cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taking a bath From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 09:16:37 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 10:16:37 -0500 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: >On 12/5/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >Unless you have a small quantity of ESDI drives, I'd suggest you be on >the lookout for a Qbus SCSI controller. They aren't usually under >$250 US, but even at that price (if it hasn't gone up recently), the >ability to use more modern drives is rather nice unless you are more >interested in a 100% vintage arrangement from before the time of SCSI >(by the time the 11/83 came around, SCSI drives weren't that rare on >DEC machines, but the controllers never were inexpensive). Or you can take a look of my project (http://www.mscpscsi.com). After fixing several bugs I am more confident than ever that this project will be successful. Now I am even trying to get a PDP11 to further test the MSCP commands of "erase" and "format" (never used by NetBSD) but the PDP11 is very heavy to haul and I need to find a spare time to deal with this issue. Having 3 commitments with 3 professors, I can barely find any time. vax, 9000 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 5 10:45:00 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 08:45:00 -0800 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: At 1:27 AM +1300 12/6/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: >I don't know either... I've only ever used sleds with a BA23. > >I haven't tried it myself, but it may be possible to fabricate >something close enough to work with ordinary shop tools and a sheet of >plexiglass/perspex. Has anyone on the list ever tried to make DEC >drive sleds from scratch? I might be getting it confused with a 3rd party chassis, but I'm pretty sure I've seen a metal drive sled, rather than the standard DEC Plastic sleds. At the same time, getting the thickness right is what will cause problems I suspect. >>The SCSI controllers are relatively hard to come by, but the Emulex DQ07 >>(iirc) seems to be one of the most common, and is the one I have. > >Viking and CMD controllers were also common, IIRC. It has been my experience that the Viking controllers were *very* common and rebadged by at least a couple companies. All of my main PDP-11's are using Viking QDT & UDT controllers. >Unless you have a small quantity of ESDI drives, I'd suggest you be on >the lookout for a Qbus SCSI controller. They aren't usually under >$250 US, but even at that price (if it hasn't gone up recently), the >ability to use more modern drives is rather nice unless you are more >interested in a 100% vintage arrangement from before the time of SCSI >(by the time the 11/83 came around, SCSI drives weren't that rare on >DEC machines, but the controllers never were inexpensive). If he looks for a ESDI controller, I'd recommend the Webster WQESD/04 controller. Personally it is the one non-SCSI 3rd party controller I'd want to run (I did for several years). >2BSD is a nice choice if you want Unix. RT-11 was common for smaller >systems, and RSX-11/M and RSTS were common for larger configurations. > >If you aren't married to Unix, RT-11 is simple enough to pick up >quickly, especially if you have much MS-DOS or CP/M experience. I >went the other way - RT-11 first, then CP/M... made learning to get >around on a Kaypro a snap. I've found one of the advantages of SCSI is that it's easy to use drive trays to run multiple OS's. RT-11 is very nice. Somehow either RSX-11M or RSX-11M+ seem a bit more appropriate for the system in question. I'm not sure I'd recommend RSTS/E as a first OS. BTW, another advantage of SCSI is attaching a CD-ROM drive, which can make installing an OS easier. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 11:10:35 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 06:10:35 +1300 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 12/6/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I might be getting it confused with a 3rd party chassis, but I'm > pretty sure I've seen a metal drive sled, rather than the standard > DEC Plastic sleds. At the same time, getting the thickness right is > what will cause problems I suspect. Hmm... I don't recall ever seeing a metal drive sled for a BA23 (the OP's expansion box), only black plastic, with maybe one translucent grey one out of the whole lot. >From what I remember about them, thickness is, of course, an important dimension, but really only the edges... the part under the drive can vary a bit and still leave room for a full-height drive, not that one is horribly likely to be using anything that large with the abundance of 1GB and 2GB 3.5" drives from their heyday 10 years ago. I'd thought of, essentially, taking a plexiglass sheet, cutting the outlines on a table saw (or whatever saw one has that can make long, straight cuts (i.e., probably not a hand saw without a bunch of filing), then using the dado blade and the fence to mill down the long sides to the requisite thickness to fit down the slides in the BA23. After that, the only fiddly bits are the drive screw holes and the latch hole for the front of the plate, unless I've forgotten some detail. I don't think the bent metal springs on the back of the plate are _essential_, only nice to have where possible. In case I've forgotten some detail, I was hoping someone with some experience fabricating replacements could chime in - I, for one, have no idea what any of the measurements might be, and I won't have a drive sled in front of me for a month. > >Viking and CMD controllers were also common, IIRC. > > It has been my experience that the Viking controllers were *very* > common and rebadged by at least a couple companies. All of my main > PDP-11's are using Viking QDT & UDT controllers. I can entirely believe that. > If he looks for a ESDI controller, I'd recommend the Webster WQESD/04 > controller. Personally it is the one non-SCSI 3rd party controller > I'd want to run (I did for several years). I've heard of that one, but I don't think I have any experience with it. > I've found one of the advantages of SCSI is that it's easy to use > drive trays to run multiple OS's. Absolutely - quick swap-in-out, easy to get one drive per OS, etc. > RT-11 is very nice. Agreed. > Somehow > either RSX-11M or RSX-11M+ seem a bit more appropriate for the system > in question. I'm not sure I'd recommend RSTS/E as a first OS. Agreed as well. I have nothing against RSTS/E, but having worked with all three OSes, I'd suggest learning something about RT-11 before tackling RSTS, and even then, seeing if RSX11M or M+ had something to offer before tackling RSTS. It has its place, but that place tended to be larger systems intended for multiple simultaneous users. The OP's CPU has plenty of horsepower to go around, but RSTS is complex enough that it might take a lot of work to get a system to the point where it's something fun to play on rather than a seemingly-perpetual exercise in software archaeology. I've done both RSTS and RSX sysgens... the RSX ones seemed to be more straightforward and resulted in a running system with less user intervention. > BTW, another advantage of SCSI is attaching a CD-ROM drive, which can > make installing an OS easier. True that. I have zero experience with CD-ROMs on PDP-11s, so owners of SCSI cards will have to chime in (to date, my only experience with Qbus SCSI is with MicroVAXen). -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 5 11:17:09 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 12:17:09 -0500 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <34F0D00D-9A45-4736-BB62-F59A53D16027@neurotica.com> On Dec 5, 2006, at 12:10 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Agreed as well. I have nothing against RSTS/E, but having worked with > all three OSes, I'd suggest learning something about RT-11 before > tackling RSTS, and even then, seeing if RSX11M or M+ had something to > offer before tackling RSTS. It has its place, but that place tended > to be larger systems intended for multiple simultaneous users. The > OP's CPU has plenty of horsepower to go around, but RSTS is complex > enough that it might take a lot of work to get a system to the point > where it's something fun to play on rather than a seemingly-perpetual > exercise in software archaeology. I've done both RSTS and RSX > sysgens... the RSX ones seemed to be more straightforward and resulted > in a running system with less user intervention. Interesting...My RSTS vs. RSX experience has been exactly the opposite. For me, on my old 11/34a eons ago, an RSX sysgen (v4.1) took many hours of painstaking work, whereas a RSTS sysgen (v9.4) took five minutes of interactive work and then let the command procedure run until it's done. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 5 11:24:23 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 10:24:23 -0700 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 05 Dec 2006 01:55:29 -0500. <011901c7183a$5a32d8c0$0b01a8c0@game> Message-ID: In article <011901c7183a$5a32d8c0$0b01a8c0 at game>, "Teo Zenios" writes: > Do you see many older engineering books from the 1930's? I always found > those interesting. Haven't been to a library booksale for ages, they usually > just sell books donated to them don't they or do they sell things from their > shelves? Each library is probably different but at the UofU library, its both. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 5 12:01:00 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 10:01:00 -0800 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <4575435C.6525.2843CDAB@cclist.sydex.com> Every year, our local library has a fundraiser ( "Friends of the Library Sale") at the fundraiser. They sell not library stock, but donated books by the truckload. I've picked up many an old software manual or text that way. They also have a "software" section, but I've never been too interested in that. The selection of LP's on the other hand, has been great. Cheers, Chuck From JEphraim at ci.southlake.tx.us Tue Dec 5 12:35:04 2006 From: JEphraim at ci.southlake.tx.us (Jesse Ephraim) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 12:35:04 -0600 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612050640.kB56eNIE013158@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? (I'm a librarian in a public library) There are generally three things you can do to maximize your chances of getting some interesting classic computer books from libraries: 1) Let the librarian who is responsible for sorting donations know that you are interested in older computer/technical books. In many cases (s)he will pull them for you and let you buy them before the big sale, especially if the library has an ongoing sale shelf that runs year-round. Many libraries automatically recycle out-of-date computer books, since they don't sell that well. If that is the case, they may be willing to give them to you for free. 2) Get to the big sale early - before it technically opens, if you can. Book dealers swarm these sales, and are often the first in line when the door opens. Many of them carry cellphone/barcode scanner combination devices that give them up-to-the-minute eBay prices on books, so they will often grab handfuls of anything that is old (regardless of type or genre), stack them on the floor, and then sit down to see what they are worth. 3) Go to sales in libraries that are in sections of the city where a lot of technical folks live. Wealthy suburbs (where older tech folks might retire), areas near high-tech companies, and areas surrounding universities are good spots. A couple of libraries in my area are located near Sabre, Nokia, and a few other companies that tend to hire a lot of techies. As a result, these libraries tend to get higher numbers of donations of older tech stuff than you would find in other libraries. Remember that weeded books generally only account for a fraction of a library book sale - most of the books come from donations. - Jesse From kth at srv.net Tue Dec 5 13:11:34 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 12:11:34 -0700 Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4575C466.6000204@srv.net> Tony Duell wrote: >True. That's why I said 'in the same sense'. It's quite possible for >hardware to have worked perfectly for 20 years, and then to stop working >(and not work agian until it's repaired) because some component has >failed. I think it's very unlikely for software to work fine for 20 >years, then crash and not run again because of some latent design bug >(unless said software makes use of the real time/date, of course ;-)) > > I have a machine that ran Linux for years, but suddenly started to hang at random times for no known reason. Windows 98 ran fine, only Linux had a problem. I replaced the hard drive, installed a new version of Linux, and things improved for a month. Then it started hanging during boot. Windows 98 still ran fine. I am now replacing several capaciters on the motherboard, with obvious buldges on the top, and Linux again runs fine. I still have 4 more caps to go, but need to find ones with the correct form factor (tight fit). Pulled those I used off another motherboard that had lightning damage. I don't know why Windows would run, but Linux would not, except that Linux makes more use of the motherboard features than windows would. I have had experience with one software bug that went unoticed for years. Then one programmer noticed the bug. Almost immediately, the software failed because of this evry bug on numerous systems, where it had run for years. Eerie. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue Dec 5 13:30:26 2006 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 11:30:26 -0800 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> Message-ID: <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> Brian Knittel wrote: > A complete IBM 1130 system just surfaced for sale in the midwestern > US. It is reputed to be one of the very first ones sold. It was used > by an architecture/engineering firm until a few years ago. It's an > impressive system: includes the CPU, external disk drives, 1403 > printer, multiplex cabinet (interface for the disks and printer), > 1442 card/read punch, 029 keypunch, documents and other stuff. We're > working getting more details. Buyer will have to arrange for pickup, > which will be a bit of a job as the machine is in a basement, and the > pieces weigh around 800 lbs each. (The multiplex box could weigh over > 1000 lbs). We suspect that a stair crawler might be required. > > We (we being Norm and Brian at ibm1130.org) don't know what the > seller expects to get for it. He's under pressure to get it sold and > moved within two weeks. This is a terrific system, but the pool of > interested people is fairly small, and the moving costs are going to > be considerable. (We would guess that the stair crawler alone will > cost $1500 or more to rent for the day, and trucking will cost > another $500 to 3500 depending on where in the US it goes -- overseas > would be much more). He's aware of this, and we hope that he's > realistic about it. We have an idea of what "realistic" might be and > could suggest what you might want to offer, if you want the advice. ebay 200053482851 IBM 1130,1133,1403,1442,1627,2311,29 ORIGINAL SYSTEM Ok, so it was neck and neck between 'luckyjavalina' (?) and 'shiresoft' (Guy Sotomayor) until 'doctor_death' (?) came in at the end and snagged it for $9200. Anybody know who 'doctor_death' happens to be? Pseudonym for 'dkdkk' maybe :-) ? Is this system going to end up in a museum, another basement, or going to be parted out on ebay? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Dec 5 14:08:00 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 20:08:00 +0000 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: > On Mon, 2006-12-04 at 15:20 -0500, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >> OK... so I'm now the new (proud :-) ) owner of a PDP-11/83. Congrats! I've been battling with a reluctant 11/73 today in the workshop, on work's time :) We have some RD53s to test for a customer..... >> There doesn't seem to be a reason to the layout of the grant continuity >> cards. >> Shouldn't there be one in the left side of the 3rd slot from the top in >> the 183QA-D2 >> (system unit) ? No, the first 3 slots of the Q22 bus carry the grant continuity on the CD portion so a dual-height card in the AB side of slot 3 is fine. >> Any pointers on how the RQDX3 and RQDXE cards should wire up ? The >> RQDXE in the system unit has a wide ribbon cable running to the front >> (which I presume breaks into the control/data wiring for an MFM drive >> there).. but the RQDX3 doesn't connect to the RQDXE .. I've just done this today - the RQDXE goes in the last AB slot with the BA23 drive bay cable going to the back-most connector, the external port (multi-coloured cable) goes in the middle connector and the cable to the RQDX3 goes to the front-most connector, ie nearest the backplane fingers. There are jumpers to select too, and the manual for those is available on MANX and Bitsavers.....many thanks to the folks involved there. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 5 14:12:51 2006 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 12:12:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612050320.kB53KAJS009881@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061205201251.94896.qmail@web50502.mail.yahoo.com> > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? Out of appreciation for their valuable and FREE inter-library loan service to me in my many requests for rare books on many esoteric topics (including a Konrad Zuse book about his Z3 relay computer of which there were only 8 copies nationwide), I volunteered a year of my service to the used book sales effort within my big city library system. Since most cities of any size now have computerized systems which quickly identify books that haven't been checked out for long periods, the odds of finding a older computer book from _within_ a library system are becoming increasingly lower. However, books donated to the library system by individuals can be a different case. I found no valuable computer-related books among the many TONS of books donated to my local library system (I was their computer book evaluation specialist - most books went straight to the paper recycling dumpster). However, I have no idea of how many old and valuable computer books may have been tossed into a dumpster _before_ they got to me due to branch library efforts to thin the donated book numbers before shipping them to our central facility. Many rare books of other types are received and other topic specialists often recognized those. However, I caught a rare one that nearly got away for the standard $2 large-format hardbound book price! While were were stocking the warehouse for one of our very large book sales, I was given a box of books donated by someone who was obviously into the Olympics since youth and was told to simply place them with all of the other large format books. Within that group of books was a MINT condition two-volume, large format German photo album set published in 1936 entitled "DIE OLYMPISCHEN SPIELE 1936." It was about the 1936 (Nazi) Summer Olympics and was sent from a German uncle to his nephew Hans in the US (per inscription). This book had already been through numerous bookworm hands before I finally caught its value. Moral of the story: go to your library book sales!!! You help your library system financially and may be helping yourself to a rare book or two in the process. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 5 14:37:30 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 14:37:30 -0600 Subject: UAE users? Message-ID: <4575D88A.4090505@yahoo.co.uk> OK, back in the UK and I just installed UAE onto the laptop... Could some kind soul throw an A500 Kickstart ROM image this way to save me digging one of my A500 machines out [1] and transferring the image myself? I'll have to unearth one of the machines and mess around with transfer software / cables at some point, I know, but I'd quite like to try the emulator out first and see how good it is with some of the disk image files downloaded from the 'net... [1] Subject to copyright restrictions. I own a couple of A500s, so I can legally transfer them to a PC myself for the purposes of emulation. However, is it legal to ask someone else to send me a ROM image from *their* legal hardware? After all, that's not *my* ROM, even though the end result is indistinguishable... cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taking a bath From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Dec 5 14:43:48 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 14:43:48 -0600 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <001801c718ae$14869950$6500a8c0@BILLING> Don wrote... > Ok, so it was neck and neck between 'luckyjavalina' (?) and 'shiresoft' > (Guy Sotomayor) until 'doctor_death' (?) came in at the end and snagged > it for $9200. Anybody know who 'doctor_death' happens to be? Pseudonym > for 'dkdkk' maybe :-) ? Didn't 'doctor_death' only have a feedback rating of 11? For a $10K item, if I was the seller, I'd be a bit concerned about that. Jay From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 5 14:44:40 2006 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 12:44:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: library book sales Message-ID: <588245.22680.qm@web50513.mail.yahoo.com> > I found no valuable computer-related books among the many TONS of books donated to my local > library system (I was their computer book evaluation specialist - most books went straight to the > paper recycling dumpster). I need to qualify my comment above from my previous post. A "rare" computer book to me means one from the very early mainframe or minicomputer eras. I did see all kinds of donated early microcomputer books and software, but nothing from my favorite mainframe/minicomputer topic area. I served with the library before joining this list and saw many items that would probably have been of interest to members of this list. So, like I said, go to your library system's used book sales! AND, while there, tell them about the market for really old microcomputer and other computer books. They might not have the benefit of a volunteer computer geek on their staff to let them know what to keep and what to toss. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From cctech at porky.vax-11.org Tue Dec 5 10:43:46 2006 From: cctech at porky.vax-11.org (cctech at porky.vax-11.org) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 09:43:46 -0700 (MST) Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: So how big was the spike after you posted the web address? On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 9000 VAX wrote: > Or you can take a look of my project (http://www.mscpscsi.com). > > vax, 9000 > From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Dec 5 12:44:42 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 18:44:42 +0000 Subject: OT: Anyone getting fun toys for the holidays? In-Reply-To: <45757347.1070303@yahoo.co.uk> References: <001801c71820$4c271bc0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> <457533E3.2070802@gjcp.net> <45757347.1070303@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4575BE1A.6020709@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> My hosts here in Christchurch have a ZX Spectrum... any pointers to >> some interesting Xmas-related demos I could aquire via the 'net? >> (thinking along the lines of the classic C-64 Xmas in-store-windows >> program from Xmas '82). > > Hmm, not quite a demo, but the guy who wrote the Monty Mole series of > games did a one-off Christmas game called, I think, 'Moley Christmas' > for the cover of one of the popular Spectrum mags of the time (either > Crash or Your Sinclair). > > If you're into platform games then tracking that down might be an idea... > > (I've almost certainly still got it on tape *somewhere* so could look > into finding it and converting it to mp3 or whatever if needed) > > cheers > > Jules > You can grab .tzx and .tap files off the 'net, and I've seen a utility to convert them into .wav files that you play into the Speccy... You might also want this: http://www.8bitpeoples.com/discography_gfx.php?artist=The%208bitpeoples#8BP038 Gordon. From kossow at computerhistory.org Tue Dec 5 13:54:17 2006 From: kossow at computerhistory.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 11:54:17 -0800 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest Message-ID: > Anybody know who 'doctor_death' happens to be? Pseudonym > for 'dkdkk' maybe :-) ? He is a 56 year old anesthesiologist in Salt Lake City. Delightful.. Always a joy to hear of another deep-pockets collector appearing. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 5 15:49:18 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 14:49:18 -0700 Subject: Looking for Don Y Message-ID: Hey, I just tried to email Don Y. regarding NCD X terminals and his address is bouncing. Don, if you're out there, can you email me? Thanks! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 5 15:51:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 14:51:15 -0700 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 05 Dec 2006 11:54:17 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Al Kossow writes: > > Anybody know who 'doctor_death' happens to be? Pseudonym > > for 'dkdkk' maybe :-) ? > > He is a 56 year old anesthesiologist in Salt Lake City. Hey cool, I'm in SLC -- maybe I'll get to see this puppy when its delivered?!? Al -- can you pass on my email address and let him know I'd like to meet him? Its always nice to know about another collector in Salt Lake. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 5 16:01:40 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 16:01:40 -0600 Subject: UAE users? In-Reply-To: <4575D88A.4090505@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4575D88A.4090505@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4575EC44.7050109@yahoo.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > > OK, back in the UK and I just installed UAE onto the laptop... > > Could some kind soul throw an A500 Kickstart ROM image this way to save > me digging one of my A500 machines out [1] and transferring the image > myself? Now all sorted out I think :) Many thanks, Jules From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Dec 5 16:40:12 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 14:40:12 -0800 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4575F54C.9000708@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: > > >Al -- can you pass on my email address and let him know I'd like to >meet him? Its always nice to know about another collector in Salt >Lake. > > He has pretty drastic problems with the logistics of this unit. He'll need a lot of money or skill to get to this and rescue it. The main reason it went up was because it was in a bad spot for the collector there in Kansas. And the owner of the property will bail it and junk it in 8 days (from now) because he has a building to turn over. I hope that it doesn't get screwed up, because there may be no chance to do a second chance for the runners up to get it out in time. right now it is a real find, but after some amateur trys to pull it and fails, it will be sad. jim From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Dec 5 17:35:16 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 18:35:16 -0500 Subject: New paper tape Images posted Message-ID: <200612052240.kB5MeWMQ008603@hosting.monisys.ca> Hi Gang, I've just posted several more Paper Tape images to my site. the new additions include: Cromemco Z80 Monitor Quite a bit of Cromemco Dazzler software TDL ZAP(ple) monitor, 8k-Basic, M-80 Macro assebler, text processing etc. I've also added a new "Paper Tape Viewer" to my Paper Tape Tools package, which lets you see what the paper tape contained in the images looked like - this is nice with the TDL tapes which have readable headers punched at the beginning of the images. Here's the description I included in the package: To further assist in verifying tape images, I have included a "Paper Tape Viewer" (PTV) utility, which allows you to see a visual representation of the paper tape image which you can compare to the physical tape. PTR can also show two images visually, allowing you to line them up for comparison, and placing indicators at points where they differ. Now I'm thinking about adding a "Paper Tape Emulator" to the package, which would "read" the images into your real system over a parallel or serial interface... ie: make a PC emulate a physical tape reader. I know how my OAE and H9 readers interface, however I don't know the details of other readers - I'm thinking I should make it somewhat programable and flexible enough that the user can configure the handshaking to just about anything reasonable, but I'd like to know more about the interfaces to actual readers - if anyone can send such details, please do. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 5 15:04:16 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 21:04:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612050041.kB50f0He018817@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 4, 6 04:40:59 pm Message-ID: > > > for the Motorola 88K, and so on. I will admit to ignoring content-free > > Mac and Windows books, though. > > > > Alas 'good' books have bevome much less common at library sales recently. > > Perhaps I've already bought them all... > > > > -tony > > No, the lack of "good" books is because they are all now those "content-free > Mac, Windows, and *UNIX* books" with very few exceptions. Thanks to the What I emant was that perhaps the reason the libary only has content-free books to sell is that I've bought up all the content-full ones they had. > popularity of Linux you really need to add Unix to the "content-free" > catagory. Though most O'Reilly books are still worth picking up, recently I would agree. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 5 15:06:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 21:06:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612050046.kB50k7xa018917@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Dec 4, 6 04:46:06 pm Message-ID: > > > D'ya mean like Knuth for $1 a volume? > > What percentage of the list just turned green with envy? A little :-) Knuth's 'The Art of Computer Programming' is, IMHO, well worth reading (and I say that even though I am not a programmer). Yes, I have the first version of it, the 3 volumes that were published. And I've even read most of them. I still think finding what appears to be a first edition of 'Automatic Digital Computers' for 30p beats it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 5 15:08:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 21:08:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: decompilation as archiving? In-Reply-To: <4574C9F0.2020202@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Dec 4, 6 08:22:56 pm Message-ID: > So software can also fail in ways that are similar to hardware > problems - EXCEPT that software will NEVER develop an entirely > new bug called a failure due to age problems whereas hardware > will always eventually reach this stage if used long enough. > If this latter characteristic is what you refer to as the prime > difference between hardware and software, then I agree 100%!!! That's exactly what I mean. Software problems are essentially design errors, hardware problems can be design errors or because some component has failed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 5 15:11:38 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 21:11:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 4, 6 10:08:00 pm Message-ID: > Huh? Who was it that, a hundred or so years ago, asked the gov't > to shut down the patent office because, surely, everything had > already been invented? I beleive it was a certain Charles Duell, and AFAIK he's no close relation of mine. -tony From rollerton at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 19:10:11 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 19:10:11 -0600 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <001801c718ae$14869950$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> <001801c718ae$14869950$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <2789adda0612051710s61798043l7500d6db9ac5ea32@mail.gmail.com> The Luckyjavalina is, uh. me. I am pretty much into saving stuff for history, looking at the art of mechanical things, enjoyment and later musuems. www.javalina.com bob. On 12/5/06, Jay West wrote: > > Don wrote... > > Ok, so it was neck and neck between 'luckyjavalina' (?) and 'shiresoft' > > (Guy Sotomayor) until 'doctor_death' (?) came in at the end and snagged > > it for $9200. Anybody know who 'doctor_death' happens to be? Pseudonym > > for 'dkdkk' maybe :-) ? > > Didn't 'doctor_death' only have a feedback rating of 11? For a $10K item, > if > I was the seller, I'd be a bit concerned about that. > > Jay > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 5 19:44:38 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 17:44:38 -0800 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <34F0D00D-9A45-4736-BB62-F59A53D16027@neurotica.com> References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> <34F0D00D-9A45-4736-BB62-F59A53D16027@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 12:17 PM -0500 12/5/06, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Dec 5, 2006, at 12:10 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>Agreed as well. I have nothing against RSTS/E, but having worked with >>all three OSes, I'd suggest learning something about RT-11 before >>tackling RSTS, and even then, seeing if RSX11M or M+ had something to >>offer before tackling RSTS. It has its place, but that place tended >>to be larger systems intended for multiple simultaneous users. The >>OP's CPU has plenty of horsepower to go around, but RSTS is complex >>enough that it might take a lot of work to get a system to the point >>where it's something fun to play on rather than a seemingly-perpetual >>exercise in software archaeology. I've done both RSTS and RSX >>sysgens... the RSX ones seemed to be more straightforward and resulted >>in a running system with less user intervention. > > Interesting...My RSTS vs. RSX experience has been exactly the >opposite. For me, on my old 11/34a eons ago, an RSX sysgen (v4.1) >took many hours of painstaking work, whereas a RSTS sysgen (v9.4) >took five minutes of interactive work and then let the command >procedure run until it's done. The reason I recommended leaving RSTS/E to last is that installing it and DECnet/E can be tricky to say the least. Of the 3 (4 if you count M+ separately), it seems to be the most picky about how it is installed. I've installed RT-11, RSX-11M, and M+ all from CD-R, but have yet to figure out how to do that with RSTS/E. Trust me, DECnet/E doesn't like it if you try to install off of a 4mm DAT tape. It took me a long time to figure out that was half my problem (the other half was a marginal Network switch). Basically RSTS/E is the only reason my PDP-11/73 still has a TZ30 (TK50) drive. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 5 19:45:31 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 17:45:31 -0800 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:08 PM +0000 12/5/06, Adrian Graham wrote: > We have some RD53s to test for a customer..... You have my sympathy. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Tue Dec 5 19:46:42 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 20:46:42 -0500 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061206014642.E9F26BA421A@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Richard wrote: > Have y'all had much luck acquiring vintage computer books/info via > library book sales? Very excellent luck. My best finds are engineering books like the McGraw-Hill engineering series, often from the 30's/40's/50's. Tim. From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 20:01:48 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 21:01:48 -0500 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <1165320413.30774.316.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 12/5/06, cctech at porky.vax-11.org wrote: > > > So how big was the spike after you posted the web address? I don't know. It is kindly hosted by Brian H (on the list too). vax, 9000 On Tue, 5 Dec 2006, 9000 VAX wrote: > > > Or you can take a look of my project (http://www.mscpscsi.com). > > > > vax, 9000 > > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Dec 5 21:18:49 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 22:18:49 -0500 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <200612052218.49804.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 05 December 2006 11:45, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 1:27 AM +1300 12/6/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >Viking and CMD controllers were also common, IIRC. > > It has been my experience that the Viking controllers were *very* > common and rebadged by at least a couple companies. All of my main > PDP-11's are using Viking QDT & UDT controllers. So, do you have any info on making them work? I've got a pair of them, which I got out of 3rd party (embedded) 11/23 systems, but I haven't had any luck getting them to talk to drives. The system can talk to the controller (I stuck it into a QBUS VAX and could do a "show uqssp" to it), but it didn't seem to see any drives, and the activity lights on the drives didn't ever blink (though the LED on the card did blink when it should have been talking to the SCSI bus). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Dec 5 22:45:42 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 05:45:42 +0100 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45764AF6.2000706@bluewin.ch> Tony Duell wrote: >> I want to convert a ASR33 from 110V/50Hz ( yes , 50Hz) to 220V. >> >> Is it sufficient to swap the motor and fuses ? > > I have never seen a 230V motor for an ASR33. All the ASR33s I've seen in > the UK have 115V motors (and the same rating of fuse that you'd expect > for a 115V machine). > My first ASR33 is a "native" 220V machine (i.e. without transformer), and since the spare motor I have came with that first machine, I assumed it would also be 220V. But i checked again after Tony's message and my spare motor turns out to be a 115V/ 50Hz item... So autotransformer it will be. And I can add the 8/L to it instead of the 8/E. jos From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 5 22:52:55 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 20:52:55 -0800 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <200612052218.49804.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <200612052218.49804.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: At 10:18 PM -0500 12/5/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >On Tuesday 05 December 2006 11:45, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> At 1:27 AM +1300 12/6/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >Viking and CMD controllers were also common, IIRC. >> >> It has been my experience that the Viking controllers were *very* >> common and rebadged by at least a couple companies. All of my main >> PDP-11's are using Viking QDT & UDT controllers. > >So, do you have any info on making them work? I've got a pair of them, >which I got out of 3rd party (embedded) 11/23 systems, but I haven't had >any luck getting them to talk to drives. The system can talk to the >controller (I stuck it into a QBUS VAX and could do a "show uqssp" to >it), but it didn't seem to see any drives, and the activity lights on >the drives didn't ever blink (though the LED on the card did blink when >it should have been talking to the SCSI bus). Take a look on ftp://ftp.avanthar.com/dan/viking_scsi and you will find the documentation. Warning, it really helps to have a bulkhead panel that allows you to plug in a serial terminal. The boards can be configured as Disk, Tape, Disk & Tape, or Disk & PDP-11 boot depending on the PAL's installed. You need fairly new firmware for them to work with a CD-ROM drive. They're pretty picky about what CD-ROM drives they'll work with, but I've had good luck with Plextor Caddy drives. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Dec 5 22:56:33 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 22:56:33 -0600 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <200612052218.49804.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4574832B.7000106@hawkmountain.net> <200612052218.49804.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <45764D81.8040802@mdrconsult.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday 05 December 2006 11:45, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>At 1:27 AM +1300 12/6/06, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>>Viking and CMD controllers were also common, IIRC. >> >>It has been my experience that the Viking controllers were *very* >>common and rebadged by at least a couple companies. All of my main >>PDP-11's are using Viking QDT & UDT controllers. > > > So, do you have any info on making them work? I've got a pair of them, > which I got out of 3rd party (embedded) 11/23 systems, but I haven't had > any luck getting them to talk to drives. The system can talk to the > controller (I stuck it into a QBUS VAX and could do a "show uqssp" to > it), but it didn't seem to see any drives, and the activity lights on > the drives didn't ever blink (though the LED on the card did blink when > it should have been talking to the SCSI bus). They're probably toast. You should ship them to me for diagnostics and proper disposal. Doc From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Dec 5 16:50:50 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 22:50:50 +0000 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <4575F54C.9000708@msm.umr.edu> References: <4575F54C.9000708@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4575F7CA.20103@gjcp.net> jim stephens wrote: > right now it is a real find, but after some amateur trys to pull it and > fails, it will be > sad. Well, now's the time to get in touch with the buyer and offer to help... Gordon From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Dec 6 01:47:38 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2006 23:47:38 -0800 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <4575F7CA.20103@gjcp.net> References: <4575F54C.9000708@msm.umr.edu> <4575F7CA.20103@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4576759A.90501@msm.umr.edu> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > jim stephens wrote: > >> right now it is a real find, but after some amateur trys to pull it >> and fails, it will be >> sad. > > Well, now's the time to get in touch with the buyer and offer to help... > > Gordon I'm up to my eyeballs in trying to save my own pile while moving out of expensive storage to offer much, and it is too remote from me and too short of a time frame for anyone to do much. I just hope he can get it out. He has problems I have no solutions or means to help with, or I'd offer it. Jim From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Dec 6 02:04:04 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 00:04:04 -0800 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <45767974.8000706@shiresoft.com> Don North wrote: > Brian Knittel wrote: >> A complete IBM 1130 system just surfaced for sale in the midwestern >> US. It is reputed to be one of the very first ones sold. It was used >> by an architecture/engineering firm until a few years ago. It's an >> impressive system: includes the CPU, external disk drives, 1403 >> printer, multiplex cabinet (interface for the disks and printer), >> 1442 card/read punch, 029 keypunch, documents and other stuff. We're >> working getting more details. Buyer will have to arrange for pickup, >> which will be a bit of a job as the machine is in a basement, and the >> pieces weigh around 800 lbs each. (The multiplex box could weigh over >> 1000 lbs). We suspect that a stair crawler might be required. >> >> We (we being Norm and Brian at ibm1130.org) don't know what the >> seller expects to get for it. He's under pressure to get it sold and >> moved within two weeks. This is a terrific system, but the pool of >> interested people is fairly small, and the moving costs are going to >> be considerable. (We would guess that the stair crawler alone will >> cost $1500 or more to rent for the day, and trucking will cost >> another $500 to 3500 depending on where in the US it goes -- overseas >> would be much more). He's aware of this, and we hope that he's >> realistic about it. We have an idea of what "realistic" might be and >> could suggest what you might want to offer, if you want the advice. > > ebay 200053482851 IBM 1130,1133,1403,1442,1627,2311,29 ORIGINAL SYSTEM > > Ok, so it was neck and neck between 'luckyjavalina' (?) and 'shiresoft' > (Guy Sotomayor) until 'doctor_death' (?) came in at the end and snagged > it for $9200. Anybody know who 'doctor_death' happens to be? Pseudonym > for 'dkdkk' maybe :-) ? > > Is this system going to end up in a museum, another basement, or going > to be parted out on ebay? > I was (obviously) hoping to get it since an 1130 was the first computer that I programmed professionally (in 1971). Because docs and software for it are somewhat scarce, as part of the acquisition I wanted to lend out the docs and media to make them available to the community at large (which is what I try to do with the other docs and media I acquire). Unfortunately, it looks like this will just fall into a "black hole". :-( -- TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Dec 6 02:18:17 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 00:18:17 -0800 Subject: RK05 disk images & PDP-11/70 Message-ID: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> Hi, I just wanted to let folks know that I've gotten my 11/70 setup with BSD2.11. It now has 2 Fujitsu Eagles attached to an Emulex SC72. BSD "thinks" there are 4 RP06 drives attached! Now that I have enough disk storage on it, I'm going to start to image the 200+ (yes, that's *not* a typo) RK05 packs. It'll take a seriously long time to go through all of the packs since before I will put a "strange" pack into the RK05 drive on the '70 (actually *any* of my RK05 drives), I disassemble the pack and completely clean the enclosure and the platter. Since there's a fair amount of DEC distribution media among the packs, I'll be doing the "high" value packs first. I'll let folks know how it goes and try to put together a catalog of what's there. I've configured this 11/70 (actually a DS570) to be able to read/write RL01/2 packs and RK05 packs. It also has a TU80 so I can also read/write 1600bpi 9-track tapes. It also has a DELUA ethernet. BSD is configured for TCP/IP and I've set it up to use one of my static IPs. DNS is pointing to it as neptune.shiresoft.com. This will allow me to move bits on/off the '70 with relative ease. I'm also contemplating letting it run 24/7 (I may reconsider once I see my electric bill) and offering access to individuals. What do y'all think? -- TTFN - Guy From wizard at voyager.net Wed Dec 6 02:17:44 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 03:17:44 -0500 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> On Tue, 2006-12-05 at 21:06 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > Knuth's 'The Art of Computer Programming' is, IMHO, well > worth reading (and I say that even though I am not a programmer). Yes, I > have the first version of it, the 3 volumes that were published. And I've > even read most of them. > > I still think finding what appears to be a first edition of 'Automatic > Digital Computers' for 30p beats it... A first edition? Without a doubt. At 30 quid it beats it -- beats it like it owed it money. Even ignoring the topic, it's an incredibly rare book. A most excellent score, Tony! Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From wizard at voyager.net Wed Dec 6 04:22:54 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 05:22:54 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> Hello, Fellow Cyber-Archaeologists, I have an idea... (everybody duck) One of the more common problems in the field of classic computers is that of loading operating systems, programs, and data onto an old machine. Could we not come up with a standard means of information interchange? I would suggest the USB memory sticks one sees everywhere now. I just bought a few of them at about four dollars each -- and each one stores a gigabyte of information. I was thinking... could we not develop, say, an S-100, an S-50, an Apple II circuit board that accepts these sticks? An RL02 equivalent controller that reads memory sticks, and pretends they are drives? Information could be stored on any modern machine, loaded onto a memory stick in a jiffy, and used to load up a copy of vital data for any information-starved machine. Each area of specialty would only need one card (or device) developed, along with a set of files and programs necessary (or just mildly useful) for booting up and running the target machine. As a bonus, one Gig of RAM memory would be a powerful drive on many older machines, and would speed the system up immensely. I'm currently spiffing up a couple of CP/M machines, and after all this time, the diskettes spinning up to read a few K at a time is almost physically painful. For me, the joy comes in USING the older machines, rather than the process of fixing them up. YMMV. But, I sure would enjoy having a gigabyte of fast storage available -- it could include a bootable CP/M image, and the entire SIG/M Public Domain library, and still have most of the disk free. Equivalencies could be made for many other machines. Does anyone have an interest in setting up some common scheme for the hardware design, and data storage so that cards and interfaces could use some common circuitry, with a separate hardware equivalent of a BIOS (implementation dependent area) that would be different for different machine applications? Comments, anyone? Has this been done? Would people see it as an abomination or boon? Who would be interested in (and capable of) producing a USB interface card for "their" computers? Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From fryers at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 04:46:54 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:46:54 +0000 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: Hey All, On 06/12/06, Warren Wolfe wrote: > I have an idea... (everybody duck) [Using USB memory sticks as universal drives for old machines] [Interfaces for each class or type of machine] [Software on the stick] > Comments, anyone? Has this been done? Would people see it as an > abomination or boon? Who would be interested in (and capable of) > producing a USB interface card for "their" computers? I was thinking of doing the same sort of thing but using compact flash cards and building some electronics as the interface for the QIC tape interface. Thinking about it is about as far as I got. From what I understand, the electronics and software for interfacing Compact Flash is a little easier than USB. My initial need for something like this, again comes back to the problems with aged QIC tapes. I have quite a few and I don't expect to get more than a read off them. Therefore I am looking for one good read into a ADC, a little signal processing, then a way to emulate the tape drive to get the OS onto the machines in question. For what it is worth, the tapes are DomainOS and assorted utilities. I look at it as, well, I would really like to use the original tapes and drives, but I also want to preserve the information on the tapes for n rereads in the future. I am therefore going to acknowldge that I am not going to undertake the OS load using all original hardware. However I am going to undertake it using as much of the original hardware as I can, substituting new hardware where I think there is a high probability something will go wrong. I can see the strange irony in this project is the micro controller that runs the interface is likely to have more CPU power and memory than the host machine! Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From spedraja at ono.com Wed Dec 6 04:57:21 2006 From: spedraja at ono.com (sp) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:57:21 +0100 Subject: RK05 disk images & PDP-11/70 In-Reply-To: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> References: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4576A211.6060800@ono.com> Hello. Guy Sotomayor escribi?: > I've configured this 11/70 (actually a DS570) to be able to read/write > RL01/2 packs and RK05 packs. It also has a TU80 so I can also > read/write 1600bpi 9-track tapes. > > It also has a DELUA ethernet. BSD is configured for TCP/IP and I've > set it up to use one of my static IPs. DNS is pointing to it as > neptune.shiresoft.com. This will allow me to move bits on/off the '70 > with relative ease. > > I'm also contemplating letting it run 24/7 (I may reconsider once I > see my electric bill) and offering access to individuals. What do > y'all think? Here have a candidate. What you're waiting for ;-) ? Regards Sergio From wizard at voyager.net Wed Dec 6 05:22:01 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 06:22:01 -0500 Subject: RK05 disk images & PDP-11/70 In-Reply-To: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> References: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1165404121.32029.28.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 00:18 -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > It also has a DELUA ethernet. BSD is configured for TCP/IP and I've set > it up to use one of my static IPs. DNS is pointing to it as > neptune.shiresoft.com. This will allow me to move bits on/off the '70 > with relative ease. > > I'm also contemplating letting it run 24/7 (I may reconsider once I see > my electric bill) and offering access to individuals. What do y'all think? If you have a reasonable connection to the 'Net, and leave the machine available for people with accounts to telnet in, you might well get folks willing to help defray the cost of power and bandwidth... I know I'd be interested. As you say, it is open for re-consideration at any time. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed Dec 6 07:37:33 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 14:37:33 +0100 Subject: rogues / Rare european machines In-Reply-To: <4573E3E6.894E0F21@cs.ubc.ca> References: <44440.68406.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <456BD13D.7090802@bluewin.ch> <456BF311.289E8BD2@cs.ubc.ca> <1165107475.30774.254.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4573E3E6.894E0F21@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1165412253.30774.334.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-12-04 at 01:01 -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Tore, thanks for your extensive reply about Norsk Data and the story about the > CERN machines. I like hearing about the other minicomputers/companies - the > 'rest of the world' - in addition to DEC and HP all the time. It's a pleasure. Even here in Norway, too few people know about the company and their machines, which I think is a real shame. AFAICT, all Norwegian universities were heavily DEC, perhaps Oslo most of all (with a DEC-10 or three) - and NORDs were mostly delegated to working as RJE stations and text processing systems. CERN really was the only major research institution to adopt them to the degree they did. ND quickly shifted their focus towards business applications from the original academic market, though the ND-500 was originally designed as a purely scientific CPU! One thing I forgot to mention is that one of the first three NORD-10 machines to be sold to CERN (and thus one of the first three NORD-10 sold), recently surfaced in a *barn* in Gjerdrum, not too far away from Oslo (but still agricultural territory), and we are currently in the process of restoring it. > Yes, indeed(!), they were of the orange generation: even in the dim lighting and > off to one side, the bank of them rather determined the colour scheme for the > room. ('SCREAMING ORANGE' as you said in an earlier message. Orange panels with > aluminum trim, IIRC.) Yes. In fact CERN mounted handles on the panels, which certainly makes the job of removing the panels a lot easier. > They were from the 70's after all: the era of DEC purple, kitchen appliances > in harvest-gold and avocado-green (for North Americans), and too many other > design crimes. (Then again, this blue iMac in front of me may look horribly > kitschy/garrish in another 20 years.) You know, I love it. Anything but mindless good taste. At least they look interesting, and diverse - much like their innards! The fascinating differences between all these machines is a major part of what attracts me to this hobby. Norsk Data machines didn't turn gray until around 1987, and that's when things started going downhill. However, as much as I'd like to claim causality... :) -Tore From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 6 08:05:04 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 08:05:04 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> Simon Fryer wrote: >> Comments, anyone? Has this been done? Would people see it as an >> abomination or boon? Who would be interested in (and capable of) >> producing a USB interface card for "their" computers? > > I was thinking of doing the same sort of thing but using compact flash > cards and building some electronics as the interface for the QIC tape > interface. Hmm, I'd much prefer that to USB; USB is a comms mechanism not a storage system - using CF cards means that a bridge to all sorts of common interfaces is possible (and in the case of things like USB and IDE such bridges exist already). Question: do CF cards support 8 bit transfers though, and are they guaranteed to do so? IDE interfaces have been homebrewed to a lot of vintage machines, but quite often they only support drives that'll do 8 bit data transfers. Remember that the most common gadget found on old machines though is the floppy drive - and that generally-speaking they're *reasonably* standardised at the electrical interface. Typically that's the only device which is bootable, and for which controlling software exists within whatever passes for an OS on the machine, too. Maybe the sensible thing to do is make a gadget which looks like a floppy drive to a vintage system but which holds data on more modern storage (USB stick, CF card etc.) or allows for a comms link to a modern machine. I can't help feeling that requiring the building of a proprietary card for every different system and the writing of drivers for it on that system is a heck of a lot of work! > Thinking about it is about as far as I got. From what I > understand, the electronics and software for interfacing Compact Flash > is a little easier than USB. It's IDE on a smaller pin pitch I think. Certainly there's no smarts to the IDE-CF convertor that I have here - CF socket, power socket, IDE socket, a capacitor, and a jumper for master/slave. That's it. And like SCSI, interfacing to IDE is mainly a software issue - the hardware tends to be a few buffers and little more. cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 09:04:11 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:04:11 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: I don't know how much times a flash memory can be written. It might be OK to make a bootable device from it. My concern is about how to make replacement RL02, RD53 or similar. Flash memory might not be good for this purpose. vax, 9000 From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed Dec 6 09:13:20 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 16:13:20 +0100 Subject: RK05 disk images & PDP-11/70 In-Reply-To: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> References: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1165418000.30774.351.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 00:18 -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Hi, > I'm also contemplating letting it run 24/7 (I may reconsider once I see > my electric bill) and offering access to individuals. What do y'all think? I think I can sum up my personal opinion with "Dang!". :) That's a very nice configuration. I wish you the very best of luck with the recovery of the disk packs. -Tore From vrs at msn.com Wed Dec 6 09:26:08 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 07:26:08 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site><1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site><4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: From: "9000 VAX" >I don't know how much times a flash memory can be written. It might be OK >to > make a bootable device from it. > > My concern is about how to make replacement RL02, RD53 or similar. Flash > memory might not be good for this purpose. It is true that the flash have a finite number of write cycles. (If we believe the manufacturers, the number of writes allowed is improving.) However, even so, I'd think the reliability would compare favorably with the old media. One suggestion was to mimic a floppy disk drive, (to cut down on the number of controllers that have to be implemented), and I'd think that the flash would easily have a similar lifetime to floppy media :-). Part of the point was to be able to copy the data onto newer equipment, which would also largely obviate the problem of finite media lifetime. (If your flash is getting tired, just copy it onto a new one.) Secretly, I believe that USB sticks will be out of fashion (unobtanium) before their reliability for this purpose becomes much of an issue. Meanwhile, CF or USB sticks would be a great transition for getting the information off the existing aging media. I can envision a floppy-to-CF gizmo attached to a CF-to-USB gizmo attached to a USB-to- gizmo, etc. as needed. Vince From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Dec 6 09:47:28 2006 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 16:47:28 +0100 Subject: Most simple interface for modern Storage (Was: Machine Independent Storage Idea) In-Reply-To: <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> References: Message-ID: <4576F420.26259.2D9E538C@localhost> No longer actve following the list I stumbled across this discussion... Am 6 Dec 2006 8:05 meinte Jules Richardson: > > Thinking about it is about as far as I got. From what I > > understand, the electronics and software for interfacing Compact Flash > > is a little easier than USB. > It's IDE on a smaller pin pitch I think. Certainly there's no smarts to the > IDE-CF convertor that I have here - CF socket, power socket, IDE socket, a > capacitor, and a jumper for master/slave. That's it. > And like SCSI, interfacing to IDE is mainly a software issue - the hardware > tends to be a few buffers and little more. As if using CF in memory Mode not even that. Still, you need (beside MS-DOS file system et al) to have enough free interface lines and beeing able to folow a protocoll with multiple control lines. If you realy look for a simple and easy modern readable media to interface for most computers, I would recommend MMC (and compatible SD-Card) media. As most basic interface they support SPI, a 4 wire serial bus that can operate at any speed from zero to 20 MHz with almost no need for additional hardware. A year ago I did even an implementation using the Apple ][ game port. No need to say that the transferrate was rather slow, still on par with floppy speed :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 8.0 am 28/29.April 2007 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From rollerton at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 10:09:12 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:09:12 -0600 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <45767974.8000706@shiresoft.com> References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> <45767974.8000706@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <2789adda0612060809p4d9b2474pf6f4c1ce199d2fca@mail.gmail.com> Looks like Guy and I share some common interests; including british cars (MGB'79, MGA'57). I wonder if 1130's leak oil? On 12/6/06, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > > Don North wrote: > > Brian Knittel wrote: > >> A complete IBM 1130 system just surfaced for sale in the midwestern > >> US. It is reputed to be one of the very first ones sold. It was used > >> by an architecture/engineering firm until a few years ago. It's an > >> impressive system: includes the CPU, external disk drives, 1403 > >> printer, multiplex cabinet (interface for the disks and printer), > >> 1442 card/read punch, 029 keypunch, documents and other stuff. We're > >> working getting more details. Buyer will have to arrange for pickup, > >> which will be a bit of a job as the machine is in a basement, and the > >> pieces weigh around 800 lbs each. (The multiplex box could weigh over > >> 1000 lbs). We suspect that a stair crawler might be required. > >> > >> We (we being Norm and Brian at ibm1130.org) don't know what the > >> seller expects to get for it. He's under pressure to get it sold and > >> moved within two weeks. This is a terrific system, but the pool of > >> interested people is fairly small, and the moving costs are going to > >> be considerable. (We would guess that the stair crawler alone will > >> cost $1500 or more to rent for the day, and trucking will cost > >> another $500 to 3500 depending on where in the US it goes -- overseas > >> would be much more). He's aware of this, and we hope that he's > >> realistic about it. We have an idea of what "realistic" might be and > >> could suggest what you might want to offer, if you want the advice. > > > > ebay 200053482851 IBM 1130,1133,1403,1442,1627,2311,29 ORIGINAL SYSTEM > > > > Ok, so it was neck and neck between 'luckyjavalina' (?) and 'shiresoft' > > (Guy Sotomayor) until 'doctor_death' (?) came in at the end and snagged > > it for $9200. Anybody know who 'doctor_death' happens to be? Pseudonym > > for 'dkdkk' maybe :-) ? > > > > Is this system going to end up in a museum, another basement, or going > > to be parted out on ebay? > > > I was (obviously) hoping to get it since an 1130 was the first computer > that I programmed professionally (in 1971). Because docs and software > for it are somewhat scarce, as part of the acquisition I wanted to lend > out the docs and media to make them available to the community at large > (which is what I try to do with the other docs and media I acquire). > Unfortunately, it looks like this will just fall into a "black hole". :-( > > -- > > TTFN - Guy > > > From rollerton at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 10:09:12 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 10:09:12 -0600 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <45767974.8000706@shiresoft.com> References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> <45767974.8000706@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <2789adda0612060809p4d9b2474pf6f4c1ce199d2fca@mail.gmail.com> Looks like Guy and I share some common interests; including british cars (MGB'79, MGA'57). I wonder if 1130's leak oil? On 12/6/06, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > > Don North wrote: > > Brian Knittel wrote: > >> A complete IBM 1130 system just surfaced for sale in the midwestern > >> US. It is reputed to be one of the very first ones sold. It was used > >> by an architecture/engineering firm until a few years ago. It's an > >> impressive system: includes the CPU, external disk drives, 1403 > >> printer, multiplex cabinet (interface for the disks and printer), > >> 1442 card/read punch, 029 keypunch, documents and other stuff. We're > >> working getting more details. Buyer will have to arrange for pickup, > >> which will be a bit of a job as the machine is in a basement, and the > >> pieces weigh around 800 lbs each. (The multiplex box could weigh over > >> 1000 lbs). We suspect that a stair crawler might be required. > >> > >> We (we being Norm and Brian at ibm1130.org) don't know what the > >> seller expects to get for it. He's under pressure to get it sold and > >> moved within two weeks. This is a terrific system, but the pool of > >> interested people is fairly small, and the moving costs are going to > >> be considerable. (We would guess that the stair crawler alone will > >> cost $1500 or more to rent for the day, and trucking will cost > >> another $500 to 3500 depending on where in the US it goes -- overseas > >> would be much more). He's aware of this, and we hope that he's > >> realistic about it. We have an idea of what "realistic" might be and > >> could suggest what you might want to offer, if you want the advice. > > > > ebay 200053482851 IBM 1130,1133,1403,1442,1627,2311,29 ORIGINAL SYSTEM > > > > Ok, so it was neck and neck between 'luckyjavalina' (?) and 'shiresoft' > > (Guy Sotomayor) until 'doctor_death' (?) came in at the end and snagged > > it for $9200. Anybody know who 'doctor_death' happens to be? Pseudonym > > for 'dkdkk' maybe :-) ? > > > > Is this system going to end up in a museum, another basement, or going > > to be parted out on ebay? > > > I was (obviously) hoping to get it since an 1130 was the first computer > that I programmed professionally (in 1971). Because docs and software > for it are somewhat scarce, as part of the acquisition I wanted to lend > out the docs and media to make them available to the community at large > (which is what I try to do with the other docs and media I acquire). > Unfortunately, it looks like this will just fall into a "black hole". :-( > > -- > > TTFN - Guy > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 10:15:16 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 08:15:16 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: References: , <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site>, Message-ID: <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2006 at 10:46, Simon Fryer wrote: > I was thinking of doing the same sort of thing but using compact flash > cards and building some electronics as the interface for the QIC tape > interface. Thinking about it is about as far as I got. From what I > understand, the electronics and software for interfacing Compact Flash > is a little easier than USB. I've been toying with the idea of using a CF to provide emulation for floppy drives. More complicated, as the thing has to look like a floppy. Rather than record separated data, I'm inclined to record flux transitions on the CF, so a disk would require something on the order of 128KBytes per track (for a 300 RPM 500KHz drive). i.e., the drive would be data-encoding independent. Since one can get 4GB CF cards, this shouldn't be a problem . Managing multiple images from a single CF card will require some careful thought. Simulating multiple drives with a single unit is another possibility. There are still whole segments of the industrial market where floppies represent the only available interface for older equipment. For the interested, here's a RS232/485-to-CF card development board. Note that it's pretty simple, using a PIC for most functions. http://www.futurlec.com/CompBoard_Technical.shtml I've been using the same outfit's USB-to-parallell I/O module and find that it's easy to use (and plugs into a 32-pin DIP socket). Cheers, Chuck From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Dec 6 10:16:33 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:16:33 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: References: <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061206102138.05b83050@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that 9000 VAX may have mentioned these words: >I don't know how much times a flash memory can be written. It might be OK to >make a bootable device from it. Between 10K and 100K times - IIRC, CompactFlash has virtual sector mapping with load-balancing to attempt to reformat the sectors evenly(ish). Dunno about the others... >My concern is about how to make replacement RL02, RD53 or similar. Flash >memory might not be good for this purpose. Depending on how often the machine is used, it may very well last a long time... but if you're still worried: MRAM. The older 5V stuff has writes into the millions, IIRC, and some new 3.3V stuff is listed as "nearly unlimited" - you can interpret that as you wish... ;-) Freescale (read: ustabeen-Moto) didn't list a maximum write life in their datasheet for the 4Mbit part they sell. Not the cheapest, but it's not outside of "affordability" IMHO. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 10:59:06 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 08:59:06 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061206102138.05b83050@mail.30below.com> References: <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk>, , <5.1.0.14.2.20061206102138.05b83050@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4576865A.23641.2D317CE7@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2006 at 11:16, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Between 10K and 100K times - IIRC, CompactFlash has virtual sector mapping > with load-balancing to attempt to reformat the sectors evenly(ish). Dunno > about the others... Modern stuff is closer to 300K. But even at 100K, emulating a floppy drive gives you about 5.5 hours of continuous rewriting of a single track. CF sector remapping obviously can improve this number. Heck, I can't get nearly that many writes out of a modern 3.5" 1.44MB diskette! :) Given the proliferation of CF, I can readily envision a not-distant future where a technological improvement results in nearly infinite numbers of write cycles. I note that Ramtron is now saying that its FRAM enjoys that distinction. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 6 11:21:14 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:21:14 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site>, <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4576FC0A.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Dec 2006 at 10:46, Simon Fryer wrote: > I've been toying with the idea of using a CF to provide emulation for > floppy drives. More complicated, as the thing has to look like a > floppy. Rather than record separated data, I'm inclined to record > flux transitions on the CF, so a disk would require something on the > order of 128KBytes per track (for a 300 RPM 500KHz drive). i.e., > the drive would be data-encoding independent. Since one can get 4GB > CF cards, this shouldn't be a problem . Yep, gut-feeling is that it'd be useful (see other post, assuming it made it - been having some email troubles today). I was a bit concerned about the write speed of CF (remember the discussion about a 'universal floppy disk reader' gadget a short while ago), but I think it works out as being fast enough for recording flux transitions at suitable oversampling. I suppose you need a fair bit of on-board CPU power to process the data (given that it has to do serial-parallel conversion between drive interface and card). > Managing multiple images > from a single CF card will require some careful thought. Darn interesting idea, though :) That implies some intelligence controlling the gadget 'remotely' though, or at the mickey-mouse end of the scale, a rotary switch on top of the device to say which image to select. Perhaps a version 2 thing? > Simulating multiple drives with a single unit is another possibility. Hmm, that 'feels' messy, somehow. Not sure why - but I think I'd prefer one gadget per drive... cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Dec 6 11:36:02 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 09:36:02 -0800 Subject: RK05 disk images & PDP-11/70 In-Reply-To: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> References: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20061206173602.GA32393@motherbrain.retronet.net> On Wed, Dec 06, 2006 at 12:18:17AM -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Hi, > > I just wanted to let folks know that I've gotten my 11/70 setup with > BSD2.11. It now has 2 Fujitsu Eagles attached to an Emulex SC72. BSD > "thinks" there are 4 RP06 drives attached! > > Now that I have enough disk storage on it, I'm going to start to image > the 200+ (yes, that's *not* a typo) RK05 packs. It'll take a seriously > long time to go through all of the packs since before I will put a > "strange" pack into the RK05 drive on the '70 (actually *any* of my RK05 > drives), I disassemble the pack and completely clean the enclosure and > the platter. Since there's a fair amount of DEC distribution media > among the packs, I'll be doing the "high" value packs first. I'll let > folks know how it goes and try to put together a catalog of what's there. Very exciting! I'm on pins and needles waiting to see what you're going to be imaging. BTW, I live in Santa Clara, let me know if you'd like any help with the grunt-work of cataloging. I'm happy to help with any software archiving efforts. > I'm also contemplating letting it run 24/7 (I may reconsider once I see > my electric bill) and offering access to individuals. What do y'all think? Move to Santa Clara! ;) Our power bill is about 1/3rd what it was when we lived in San Jose and had PG&E. Barring that, yes, I'm sure many of us on the list would be happy to help defray the cost if you'd like. -Seth, a fellow DEC enthusiast From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed Dec 6 11:35:59 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 18:35:59 +0100 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <2789adda0612060809p4d9b2474pf6f4c1ce199d2fca@mail.gmail.com> References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> <45767974.8000706@shiresoft.com> <2789adda0612060809p4d9b2474pf6f4c1ce199d2fca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1165426559.30774.356.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 10:09 -0600, Robert Ollerton wrote: > Looks like Guy and I share some common interests; including british cars > (MGB'79, MGA'57). I wonder if 1130's leak oil? Nah, you're thinking of the 7090. :) -Tore From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 11:38:30 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 09:38:30 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <4576FC0A.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com>, <4576FC0A.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45768F96.15253.2D558F51@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2006 at 11:21, Jules Richardson wrote: > Darn interesting idea, though :) That implies some intelligence controlling > the gadget 'remotely' though, or at the mickey-mouse end of the scale, a > rotary switch on top of the device to say which image to select. Perhaps a > version 2 thing? Ideally, a couple of pushbuttons and a small LCD display, I'd think. Floppy changing is a manual effort in the real world; no reason to do it differently in the simulated world. > Hmm, that 'feels' messy, somehow. Not sure why - but I think I'd prefer one > gadget per drive... Yeah, it occurred to me that you'd get into the situation of "My A: drive is on one CF card, but my B: drive is on another. What do I do?" (2 CF slots, maybe?) Per-track access time from the CF shouldn't be much of an issue. One can always delay the index pulse until the data is ready (recall that at 300 RPM, an index pulse occurs every 200 msec.). Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Dec 6 10:37:55 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:37:55 -0500 Subject: RK05 disk images & PDP-11/70 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 06 Dec 2006 00:18:17 PST." <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <200612061637.kB6Gbt2p023732@mwave.heeltoe.com> Guy Sotomayor wrote: ... >long time to go through all of the packs since before I will put a >"strange" pack into the RK05 drive on the '70 (actually *any* of my RK05 >drives), I disassemble the pack and completely clean the enclosure and >the platter. Could you (at some point) describe how you do that? I've got several rk05 drives I'm bringing back to life and some older packs which could use cleaning. I didn't realize you could open up the pack - sounds like a good idea in some cases. cool about the 11/70 too - very nice. I've got a similar setup with my 11/44 but no rk05's (yet) thanks, -brad From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 6 12:11:19 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:11:19 -0700 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <1165426559.30774.356.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> <45767974.8000706@shiresoft.com> <2789adda0612060809p4d9b2474pf6f4c1ce199d2fca@mail.gmail.com> <1165426559.30774.356.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <457707C7.5050600@jetnet.ab.ca> Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > On Wed, 2006-12-06 at 10:09 -0600, Robert Ollerton wrote: > >>Looks like Guy and I share some common interests; including british cars >>(MGB'79, MGA'57). I wonder if 1130's leak oil? > > > Nah, you're thinking of the 7090. :) > > -Tore All I know is to TIE down your DRIVES -- they have been known to walk out the door. :) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 6 12:35:48 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 12:35:48 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45768F96.15253.2D558F51@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com>, <4576FC0A.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> <45768F96.15253.2D558F51@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45770D84.9090902@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Dec 2006 at 11:21, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Darn interesting idea, though :) That implies some intelligence controlling >> the gadget 'remotely' though, or at the mickey-mouse end of the scale, a >> rotary switch on top of the device to say which image to select. Perhaps a >> version 2 thing? > > Ideally, a couple of pushbuttons and a small LCD display, I'd think. > Floppy changing is a manual effort in the real world; no reason to do > it differently in the simulated world. True. A link to a modern machine might be nice for transfer, though (to save on swapping cards around). But I remember the lengthy discussions about what the 'best' interface is in the past :-) I was thinking that some sort of switch is a bit clunky - but with your addition of the LCD the device would be able to display more information about which file was selected (rather than having to rely on the user knowing that the thing in 'slot' #0 was disk xyz etc.) >> Hmm, that 'feels' messy, somehow. Not sure why - but I think I'd prefer one >> gadget per drive... > > Yeah, it occurred to me that you'd get into the situation of "My A: > drive is on one CF card, but my B: drive is on another. What do I > do?" (2 CF slots, maybe?) It just feels like it might get complex at that point - and costly. I suppose you can put a header (or even just pads for one) on the main board for a cable going to a second card, but not worry about the expense of adding a second slot right now; sort of make it an optional extra. If CF is just IDE then it should presumably be dead easy to support one or two cards on the same bus anyway without additional logic. Same deal on the floppy interface side - make it possible to hook it up as two drives if someone wants to buy the extra cabling and relevant interface logic, but don't actually provide that in the initial design (heck, don't even worry about the firmware for it at this stage). Later on it can then be done if people need it without a change of core design or PCBs (just new firmware and additional hardware), but you're not worried about every possible scenario from day 1. > Per-track access time from the CF shouldn't be much of an issue. One > can always delay the index pulse until the data is ready (recall that > at 300 RPM, an index pulse occurs every 200 msec.). True, but then wouldn't you have to buffer the entire written (computer to device) and oversampled track of data in memory somewhere rather than spitting it straight out to the CF card (via suitable serial ==> parallel conversion of course)? If there's a guarantee that the CF write speed is fast enough, then it should make the device simpler as hopefully something like a PIC micro has enough on-board RAM without worrying about external memory at all. Keeps costs down too if you're not mucking around with things like SIMM sockets. I think when I did some quick calculations a while back that CF write speed should be good enough - but it was close on marginal CF cards (it seems like write speed can vary a lot between manufacturers) when handling floppy drives with high data rates (and assuming a reasonable level of oversampling). Read speed (device to computer) shouldn't be an issue, I think. For something like a 500Mbps/300rpm drive and 8x oversampling, I don't think there'd be a problem at all, assuming that a disk surface can be stored on the card as a raw linear sequence of blocks (worrying about handling of fragmented files or encoding lots of metadata might screw things up). It'd be a fun project, at any rate... cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 6 13:00:34 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 19:00:34 +0000 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 6/12/06 01:45, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 8:08 PM +0000 12/5/06, Adrian Graham wrote: >> We have some RD53s to test for a customer..... > > You have my sympathy. Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I wrote in the 1980's...... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Dec 6 13:19:00 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 14:19:00 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45768F96.15253.2D558F51@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4576FC0A.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> <4576FC0A.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061206132313.052ea548@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >On 6 Dec 2006 at 11:21, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Darn interesting idea, though :) That implies some intelligence > controlling > > the gadget 'remotely' though, or at the mickey-mouse end of the scale, a > > rotary switch on top of the device to say which image to select. Perhaps a > > version 2 thing? > >Ideally, a couple of pushbuttons and a small LCD display, I'd think. >Floppy changing is a manual effort in the real world; no reason to do >it differently in the simulated world. RGBDos for the CoCo makes it quite a bit easier - it patches the onboard RSDOS to allow up to 256 emulated floppies - there's a command that allows some real floppies in the mix as well (say, drives 0 and 1 are real, then 2-255 are emulated on the CF card). The logic associated with onboard buttons (and a display) adds a layer of complexity to the device that would have to be thoroughly debugged... sometimes software can be easier. ;-) > > Hmm, that 'feels' messy, somehow. Not sure why - but I think I'd prefer > one > > gadget per drive... To me, the whole point of "big storage" is to increase the number of floppies available without increasing the cost.... if you have one gizmo per drive, the cost increase for multiple dries goes up linearly. With the emulated solution, you could (easily) have hundreds of floppies, without the hundredfold increase in cost. $100 for my CoCo IDE interface and $20 for the 256Meg might sound like a lot until one figures I get 256 RSDOS floppies *and* a 170Meg NitrOS9 hard drive all in one (very) small package. That's $0.50 per virtual floppy drive & a relatively large NitrOS9 HD kicked in for good measure... ;-) Anywho, that's just me, and I like me that way. (At least that's what the voices say... ;-) ) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 13:38:07 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:38:07 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45770D84.9090902@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <45768F96.15253.2D558F51@cclist.sydex.com>, <45770D84.9090902@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4576AB9F.7976.2DC311B0@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2006 at 12:35, Jules Richardson wrote: > True, but then wouldn't you have to buffer the entire written (computer to > device) and oversampled track of data in memory somewhere rather than spitting > it straight out to the CF card (via suitable serial ==> parallel conversion of > course)? Oh, absolutely. I was thinking of a RAM track buffer and a counter that spit out an index pulse every time the counter reset to zero. It would be simple to also have a second counter to emit sector pulses to simulate hard disks. Other than the buffer itself, I think most of the logic (counters, serializer/deserializer, memory arbitration, etc. could be implemented in a modest CPLD. I suppose one could mitigate CF write latency with some double-buffering. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 13:42:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:42:02 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061206132313.052ea548@mail.30below.com> References: <4576FC0A.9070408@yahoo.co.uk>, <45768F96.15253.2D558F51@cclist.sydex.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20061206132313.052ea548@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4576AC8A.19413.2DC6A896@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2006 at 14:19, Roger Merchberger wrote: > RGBDos for the CoCo makes it quite a bit easier - it patches the onboard > RSDOS to allow up to 256 emulated floppies - there's a command that allows > some real floppies in the mix as well (say, drives 0 and 1 are real, then > 2-255 are emulated on the CF card). That's nice if'n you know what platform you're aiming at. But a general-purpose floppy emulator probably doesn't have that luxury. I mean, what would you do for say, a Ioline fabric cutter or Meistergram embroidery machine? (That's where you'll find a lot of floppies still in use). Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 13:47:07 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:47:07 -0500 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <2789adda0612060809p4d9b2474pf6f4c1ce199d2fca@mail.gmail.com> References: <456C5B4B.11421.29D89311@brian.quarterbyte.com> <4575C8D2.5020700@mindspring.com> <45767974.8000706@shiresoft.com> <2789adda0612060809p4d9b2474pf6f4c1ce199d2fca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Looks like Guy and I share some common interests; including british cars > (MGB'79, MGA'57). I wonder if 1130's leak oil? The 2311 will indeed leak oil. No joke. -- Will From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Dec 6 14:23:38 2006 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 15:23:38 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <4576AC8A.19413.2DC6A896@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061206132313.052ea548@mail.30below.com> <4576FC0A.9070408@yahoo.co.uk> <45768F96.15253.2D558F51@cclist.sydex.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20061206132313.052ea548@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20061206151126.03b547d8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck Guzis may have mentioned these words: >On 6 Dec 2006 at 14:19, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > RGBDos for the CoCo makes it quite a bit easier - it patches the onboard > > RSDOS to allow up to 256 emulated floppies - there's a command that allows > > some real floppies in the mix as well (say, drives 0 and 1 are real, then > > 2-255 are emulated on the CF card). > >That's nice if'n you know what platform you're aiming at. But a >general-purpose floppy emulator probably doesn't have that luxury. I >mean, what would you do for say, a Ioline fabric cutter or >Meistergram embroidery machine? (That's where you'll find a lot of >floppies still in use). Ah, OK. Now I get yer drift... With all this talk of "multiple floppies means multiple gizmos" I was internally translating that to "microcomputer systems" as I'd not really seen many specialty machines that took multiple floppies like that... ;-) You're looking for something that plugs straight into the floppy cable to do it's "dirty work." If that's the case, *if* (yea, big if) the device supports multiple drives on the same cable, one could monitor the DriveSelect lines and automagically support multiple floppies from a single device... [[ "swapping" floppies would still need some form of external interface, methinks... ]] Don't mind me - I lost my village long ago. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From fireflyst at earthlink.net Wed Dec 6 14:24:57 2006 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:24:57 -0600 Subject: RK05 disk images & PDP-11/70 In-Reply-To: <45767CC9.9090705@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <000101c71974$99589a90$3c0718ac@CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Awesome. It will be good to see more machines up 24/7, especially something as large as a /70. Can't wait to see what you've got on those packs :) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy Sotomayor > Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 2:18 AM > To: General at shiresoft.com; Discussion at shiresoft.com :On-Topic > Posts Only > Subject: RK05 disk images & PDP-11/70 > > Hi, > > I just wanted to let folks know that I've gotten my 11/70 > setup with BSD2.11. It now has 2 Fujitsu Eagles attached to > an Emulex SC72. BSD "thinks" there are 4 RP06 drives attached! > > Now that I have enough disk storage on it, I'm going to start > to image the 200+ (yes, that's *not* a typo) RK05 packs. > It'll take a seriously long time to go through all of the > packs since before I will put a "strange" pack into the RK05 > drive on the '70 (actually *any* of my RK05 drives), I > disassemble the pack and completely clean the enclosure and > the platter. Since there's a fair amount of DEC distribution > media among the packs, I'll be doing the "high" value packs > first. I'll let folks know how it goes and try to put > together a catalog of what's there. > > I've configured this 11/70 (actually a DS570) to be able to read/write > RL01/2 packs and RK05 packs. It also has a TU80 so I can > also read/write 1600bpi 9-track tapes. > > It also has a DELUA ethernet. BSD is configured for TCP/IP > and I've set it up to use one of my static IPs. DNS is > pointing to it as neptune.shiresoft.com. This will allow me > to move bits on/off the '70 with relative ease. > > I'm also contemplating letting it run 24/7 (I may reconsider > once I see my electric bill) and offering access to > individuals. What do y'all think? > > -- > > TTFN - Guy > > From jhoger at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 14:36:31 2006 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John R.) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 12:36:31 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: On 12/6/06, Warren Wolfe wrote: > Hello, Fellow Cyber-Archaeologists, > > I have an idea... (everybody duck) > > One of the more common problems in the field of classic computers is > that of loading operating systems, programs, and data onto an old > machine. Could we not come up with a standard means of information > interchange? I would suggest the USB memory sticks one sees everywhere > now. I just bought a few of them at about four dollars each -- and each > one stores a gigabyte of information. > You need to add a USB host controller. This solves a more general problem of getting access to modern USB devices. Flash drives, keyboards, joysticks, mice, serial adapters, parallel adapters, even VGA adapters. The good news is, that this has already been done... see http://microusb.org If you poke around, they do have Forth code for accessing a USB flash key drive. -- John. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 14:42:59 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 12:42:59 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061206151126.03b547d8@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20061206132313.052ea548@mail.30below.com>, <4576AC8A.19413.2DC6A896@cclist.sydex.com>, <5.1.0.14.2.20061206151126.03b547d8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4576BAD3.29152.2DFE7685@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2006 at 15:23, Roger Merchberger wrote: > With all this talk of "multiple floppies means multiple gizmos" I was > internally translating that to "microcomputer systems" as I'd not really > seen many specialty machines that took multiple floppies like that... ;-) There are still boatloads of old CNC machinery out there in productive use. Consider that the purchase price was often in 6 figures and that there's basically nothing wrong with the part that's attached to the iron casting (i.e., the business end of the tool). Tool vendors are most likely to encourage you to purchase a whole new machine than upgrade parts of it. > You're looking for something that plugs straight into the floppy cable to > do it's "dirty work." If that's the case, *if* (yea, big if) the device > supports multiple drives on the same cable, one could monitor the > DriveSelect lines and automagically support multiple floppies from a single > device... [[ "swapping" floppies would still need some form of external > interface, methinks... ]] That's what I was thinking of, all right. Cheers, Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 6 15:21:20 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 15:21:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: Big Book (website) of Amiga Hardware Message-ID: <200612062121.kB6LLKPa077887@keith.ezwind.net> FYI: (especially Amiga fans/owners) I hope someone decides to help preserve all his work. Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Ian: "After nearly 8 years of running the Big Book of Ami ga Hardware, I've decided it's time for me to retire from maintaining the site. The reasons are many and varied, but personal. The p roject started in January 1999 and since then has gr own to be what it is today. This wouldn't have been possible without the hundreds of contributors that t ook their time to help out, many of who sent hundred s of photographs over the years." http://www.amiga-hardware.com/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 6 15:56:56 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 21:56:56 +0000 Subject: Big Book (website) of Amiga Hardware In-Reply-To: <200612062121.kB6LLKPa077887@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 6/12/06 21:21, "aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk" wrote: > > FYI: (especially Amiga fans/owners) > > I hope someone decides to help preserve all > his work. Me too, does anyone have the bandwidth to keep the site running? I don't, otherwise I'd be on it like a shot..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From feedle at feedle.net Wed Dec 6 16:08:42 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 15:08:42 -0700 Subject: Big Book (website) of Amiga Hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45773F6A.9020002@feedle.net> Adrian Graham wrote: > > On 6/12/06 21:21, "aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk" > wrote: > > >> FYI: (especially Amiga fans/owners) >> >> I hope someone decides to help preserve all >> his work. >> > > Me too, does anyone have the bandwidth to keep the site running? I don't, > otherwise I'd be on it like a shot..... > > According to the site, the German mirror's maintainer will keep it going, so there's no cause for alarm. From jhoger at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 16:24:54 2006 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John R.) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:24:54 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/6/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Dec 2006 at 10:46, Simon Fryer wrote: > > > I was thinking of doing the same sort of thing but using compact flash > > cards and building some electronics as the interface for the QIC tape > > interface. Thinking about it is about as far as I got. From what I > > understand, the electronics and software for interfacing Compact Flash > > is a little easier than USB. > > I've been toying with the idea of using a CF to provide emulation for > floppy drives. More complicated, as the thing has to look like a A good start: http://www.thesvd.com/SVD/ -- John. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 17:35:18 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 15:35:18 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: References: , <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4576E336.26622.2E9C3669@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2006 at 14:24, John R. wrote: > A good start: > http://www.thesvd.com/SVD/ Thanks for the link! An interesting idea. If my mind isn't playing tricks on me, there also was a similar commercial device for the PeeCee sometime during the 80's. Freakishly expensive, even for then. The SVD widget appears to store decoded data (256KB SRAM), which means it has to know something about the system it's working with. I haven't looked at the firmware listing yet, so I'm fuzzy on details. Is it better to store undecoded data streams (like a Catweasel) or the decoded data? My inclination is to deal with raw track data without attempting to interpret it. Requires quite a bit more memory to store data, but has fewer limitations. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 6 17:39:45 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 23:39:45 +0000 Subject: Big Book (website) of Amiga Hardware In-Reply-To: <45773F6A.9020002@feedle.net> Message-ID: On 6/12/06 22:08, "C. Sullivan" wrote: >> Me too, does anyone have the bandwidth to keep the site running? I don't, >> otherwise I'd be on it like a shot..... >> >> > > According to the site, the German mirror's maintainer will keep it > going, so there's no cause for alarm. Excellent, ta for that! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 6 17:57:57 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 23:57:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> from "Warren Wolfe" at Dec 6, 6 03:17:44 am Message-ID: > > I still think finding what appears to be a first edition of 'Automatic > > Digital Computers' for 30p beats it... > > > A first edition? Without a doubt. At 30 quid it beats it -- beats It's not in great condiiton in that it has the library stamps in it. On the other hand, I met Professor Wilkes about 20 years ago and he very kindly autographied it for me. I think it's worth a little more than I paid for it :-).... -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 6 18:15:18 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 18:15:18 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <4576E336.26622.2E9C3669@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com>, <4576E336.26622.2E9C3669@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45775D16.2000401@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Is it better to store undecoded data streams (like a Catweasel) or > the decoded data? My inclination is to deal with raw track data > without attempting to interpret it. Requires quite a bit more memory > to store data, but has fewer limitations. Certainly on the gadget I'd prefer to store raw, undecoded data - as you say, encoding the data requires knowledge about the actual disk data being stored (and potentially screws up various copy-protection schemes in the process). Personally I'd see any data stored within the gadget as purely transient; the 'real' archival copy would be held somewhere on properly backed up storage and I'd expect tools to exist there to either compress / decompress the 'raw' copies, or to have some intelligence and allow conversion between decoded form (suitable for analysing, manipulating, using with emulators etc.) and the raw format used on the 'floppy emulator'. Of course conversion requires knowledge of the data at a higher level - but that's OK as a user can just install the relevant conversion tools on their modern system according to what hardware they have (rather than the floppy emulator having to have knowledge of every vintage floppy / filesystem format on the planet) cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From jhoger at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 19:22:13 2006 From: jhoger at gmail.com (John R.) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 17:22:13 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <4576E336.26622.2E9C3669@cclist.sydex.com> References: <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> <4576E336.26622.2E9C3669@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/6/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Dec 2006 at 14:24, John R. wrote: > > > A good start: > > http://www.thesvd.com/SVD/ > > Thanks for the link! > > An interesting idea. If my mind isn't playing tricks on me, there > also was a similar commercial device for the PeeCee sometime during > the 80's. Freakishly expensive, even for then. > > The SVD widget appears to store decoded data (256KB SRAM), which > means it has to know something about the system it's working with. I > haven't looked at the firmware listing yet, so I'm fuzzy on details. > > Is it better to store undecoded data streams (like a Catweasel) or > the decoded data? My inclination is to deal with raw track data > without attempting to interpret it. Requires quite a bit more memory > to store data, but has fewer limitations. > Yeah I guess one way is the "embedded systems" approach and the other is a desktop approach. For archival purpose I think your idea is better. For daily use (the SVD is a "peripheral" that travels between machines) I think the decoded data is probably better. On the desktop I expect you still wouldn't store the raw data, but pipe to a filter that decodes it and store that. -- John. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Dec 6 19:36:02 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 17:36:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: References: <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> <4576E336.26622.2E9C3669@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061206172943.L45116@shell.lmi.net> > > Is it better to store undecoded data streams (like a Catweasel) or > > the decoded data? My inclination is to deal with raw track data > > without attempting to interpret it. Requires quite a bit more memory > > to store data, but has fewer limitations. > > Yeah I guess one way is the "embedded systems" approach and the other > is a desktop approach. For archival purpose I think your idea is > better. For daily use (the SVD is a "peripheral" that travels between > machines) I think the decoded data is probably better. Ah, we've been here before. For a "universal disk storage" device or format, you need to have the capability of three different levels 1) files 2) sectors 3) flux transition + software to convert both ways between all three #3, flux transition ideally calls for the device to have an SA800/SA400 interface, and would not require any additional software on the machine. Since conversion between USB interface and memory cards is readily available, either would do. But, howzbout RS232 and/or "centronics" parallel? From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Wed Dec 6 21:35:52 2006 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 21:35:52 -0600 Subject: Help needed in identifying an early IC Message-ID: <000001c719b0$cbc21060$176fa8c0@obie> I've come across a few old ICs and haven't been able to find out much about them - lots of places on the 'net are willing to sell them but I couldn't find a data sheet - only one clue that they _might_ be dual op-amps. They are small cans (TO-??) with eight leads protruding from the bottom, marked SG 1458T with a 1976 date code. Any help identifying them would be appreciated. Kind of hoping they're really some sort of shift register ... Thanks, Jack -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/573 - Release Date: 12/5/2006 4:07 PM From vrs at msn.com Wed Dec 6 21:47:33 2006 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 19:47:33 -0800 Subject: Help needed in identifying an early IC References: <000001c719b0$cbc21060$176fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: From: "Jack Rubin" > I've come across a few old ICs and haven't been able to find out much > about them - lots of places on the 'net are willing to sell them but I > couldn't find a data sheet - only one clue that they _might_ be dual > op-amps. They are small cans (TO-??) with eight leads protruding from > the bottom, marked SG 1458T with a 1976 date code. Any help identifying > them would be appreciated. Kind of hoping they're really some sort of > shift register ... Here's an overview: http://www.datasheets.org.uk/specsheet.php?part=SG1458T Looks like it's a dual op amp. Vince From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 22:00:11 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 23:00:11 -0500 Subject: Help needed in identifying an early IC In-Reply-To: <000001c719b0$cbc21060$176fa8c0@obie> References: <000001c719b0$cbc21060$176fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: > I've come across a few old ICs and haven't been able to find out much > about them - lots of places on the 'net are willing to sell them but I > couldn't find a data sheet - only one clue that they _might_ be dual > op-amps. They are small cans (TO-??) with eight leads protruding from > the bottom, marked SG 1458T with a 1976 date code. Any help identifying > them would be appreciated. Kind of hoping they're really some sort of > shift register ... Yes, it is a dual op amp, Silicon General 1458. Standard stuff, but worth saving. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 6 22:06:52 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 20:06:52 -0800 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:00 PM +0000 12/6/06, Adrian Graham wrote: >Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up >the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I >wrote in the 1980's...... If it's just something like the heads sticking, it might be possible to revive the drive, at least long enough to get the data off. BTW, while several other people have done this over the years, I didn't have any luck the one time I tried to revive an RD53, so you'll want to ask someone other than me any questions. :^) I've even heard of people running the drives for years after fixing the problem. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Dec 6 05:10:19 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:10:19 +0000 Subject: IBM 1130 for sale in the US midwest In-Reply-To: <4576759A.90501@msm.umr.edu> References: <4575F54C.9000708@msm.umr.edu> <4575F7CA.20103@gjcp.net> <4576759A.90501@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4576A51B.6020109@gjcp.net> jim stephens wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >> jim stephens wrote: >> >>> right now it is a real find, but after some amateur trys to pull it >>> and fails, it will be >>> sad. >> >> Well, now's the time to get in touch with the buyer and offer to help... >> >> Gordon > > I'm up to my eyeballs in trying to save my own pile while moving out of > expensive storage to offer much, and it is too remote from me and too short > of a time frame for anyone to do much. I just hope he can get it out. > > He has problems I have no solutions or means to help with, or I'd offer it. Might be worth just getting in touch and telling him if he gets stuck, then this list is here. Maybe see if you can give him a phone number or something. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Dec 6 05:13:43 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:13:43 +0000 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4576A5E7.60607@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> I want to convert a ASR33 from 110V/50Hz ( yes , 50Hz) to 220V. >> >> Is it sufficient to swap the motor and fuses ? > > I have never seen a 230V motor for an ASR33. All the ASR33s I've seen in > the UK have 115V motors (and the same rating of fuse that you'd expect > for a 115V machine). > > There's an autotransformer fitted in the stand to get 115V from the 230V > mains. That's the change. As an aside, if I've got 110v equipment and 240v mains, would a yellow transformer be suitable for running it? I'd assume that most kit will be happy enough with a centre-tapped supply but I don't know if I want to risk it... Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Dec 6 09:40:07 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 15:40:07 +0000 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> 9000 VAX wrote: > I don't know how much times a flash memory can be written. It might be > OK to > make a bootable device from it. > > My concern is about how to make replacement RL02, RD53 or similar. Flash > memory might not be good for this purpose. > > vax, 9000 Static RAM and a nicad? Gordon From phil_skates at yahoo.com Wed Dec 6 10:11:11 2006 From: phil_skates at yahoo.com (Philipp Rey) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2006 08:11:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: hp 9153c Message-ID: <245752.29606.qm@web51515.mail.yahoo.com> hi carlos! i saw your thread on classiccmp.org. you seem to know alot about hp-ux. so here's my question: do you know of a way/program to convert dos/windows ascii files so they can be read by hp 9153c disk drive running on a hp 9000 series 300 computer. i think what i need is to be able to convert fat/ntfs file system to a lif, right? thank-you! philipp --------------------------------- Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Dec 6 16:27:19 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2006 22:27:19 +0000 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457743C7.8030407@gjcp.net> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 6/12/06 01:45, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >> At 8:08 PM +0000 12/5/06, Adrian Graham wrote: >>> We have some RD53s to test for a customer..... >> You have my sympathy. > > Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up > the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I > wrote in the 1980's...... What actually fails in them? Gordon. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 7 03:00:31 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 06:00:31 -0300 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <134e01c719de$31114d00$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Comments, anyone? Has this been done? Would people see it as an > abomination or boon? Who would be interested in (and capable of) > producing a USB interface card for "their" computers? Well, there are common USB master chips you can find for less than $10. Something like you are thinking can be made in three "layers" for easy modification for each machine - Layer one: Interacts with the USB pen drive. - Layer two: intelligence between the USB pen drive (master controller) and the LOGIC part of the media controller for the old puter - Layer three: digital/analog circuits needed to interface the original 'puter media I'll give an example: - L1: Philips USB Master chip, controlled thru SPI - L2: Atmel Atmega32 or Atmega 128 doing the bridge between the USB Master and the computer itself - L3: TTL/ECL/CMOS/etc interfacing to the microcomputer Why three layers? Because in the level one, I can use compactflash, MMC, SD, Memory stick or ferrite cores (:oD) as the medium. The Level two can be reprogrammed at will, and level three can be a simple "cartridge" that can be changed to make it usable for any old computer. And all modules can be independently developed. With proper help and a nice qty done, all this can be less than $50 to build, and a fun to develop. Comments, suggestions, rocks and apple (ueba!) pies!? Alexandre Souza www.tabajara-labs.com.br From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 7 03:06:49 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 06:06:49 -0300 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site><1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site><4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <136201c719df$0d048570$f0fea8c0@alpha> >I don't know how much times a flash memory can be written. It might be OK >to > make a bootable device from it. > My concern is about how to make replacement RL02, RD53 or similar. Flash > memory might not be good for this purpose. Something from 100.000 to 1.000.000 writes. Maybe battery-backed SRAM or the newer FRAM battery-less chips fits the bill. Greetings from Brazil Alexandre Souza www.tabajara-labs.com.br From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 7 03:05:51 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 06:05:51 -0300 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <136101c719df$0cbcf520$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Question: do CF cards support 8 bit transfers though, and are they > guaranteed to do so? IDE interfaces have been homebrewed to a lot of > vintage machines, but quite often they only support drives that'll do 8 > bit data transfers. Yep, they do. > It's IDE on a smaller pin pitch I think. Certainly there's no smarts to > the IDE-CF convertor that I have here - CF socket, power socket, IDE > socket, a capacitor, and a jumper for master/slave. That's it. Yes, you are sure > And like SCSI, interfacing to IDE is mainly a software issue - the > hardware tends to be a few buffers and little more. This is "not so easy" as you may think. But my three-layers-approach seems to fit nicely here. Anyone has the protocol of a QIC-80 drive? I'd like to take a peek on that. BTW, remember: This does not need to be a CF card, it can even be some cheap SRAM memory and a serial or ethernet connection... :o) Greetz from Brazil Alexandre Souza www.tabajara-labs.com.br From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 7 06:02:34 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 06:02:34 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <20061206172943.L45116@shell.lmi.net> References: <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> <4576E336.26622.2E9C3669@cclist.sydex.com> <20061206172943.L45116@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <457802DA.1080000@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Is it better to store undecoded data streams (like a Catweasel) or >>> the decoded data? My inclination is to deal with raw track data >>> without attempting to interpret it. Requires quite a bit more memory >>> to store data, but has fewer limitations. >> Yeah I guess one way is the "embedded systems" approach and the other >> is a desktop approach. For archival purpose I think your idea is >> better. For daily use (the SVD is a "peripheral" that travels between >> machines) I think the decoded data is probably better. > > Ah, we've been here before. Several times :-) > For a "universal disk storage" device or format, you need to have the > capability of three different levels > 1) files > 2) sectors > 3) flux transition > + software to convert both ways between all three The latter point's the important bit, I suppose. If you merely want a replacement for failing floppy disks, then surely flux transition storage / playback is sufficient? I'd imagine that such data probably compresses reasonably well (say for archival purposes), too. But (as you say) to actually *do* anything more constructive with the data at the sector level (such as convert to other disk image formats) you need to be able to decode the flux transitions based on knowledge of what low-level encoding scheme was used for a particular image. Similarly at the file level (such as viewing / copying files to other filesystems) you need tools that can both decode the flux transitions based on encoding scheme, and decode the filesystem based upon whatever system the image is for. Personally I'd be inclined to go for a device that just handles raw flux transitions at the moment and worry about manipulation tools further down the line; the priority right now is likely for something that can replace floppy disks on vintage hardware, not for some bells and whistles tool that comes with a big software suite for data manipulation. Having said that, as a test does anyone have the tools available to record a disk image at the flux transition level with suitable oversampling? It'd be interesting to see how difficult it is in software to engineer that back to sector-level data (filesystem-level we know isn't a problem!). > #3, flux transition ideally calls for the device to have an SA800/SA400 > interface, and would not require any additional software on the machine. My gut feeling is that's the sensible way to start, with other interface types being supported further down the line. Just keep in mind when designing the hardware and firmware that an SA800/400 interface isn't the only type that we may want to support in the future. Of course if there are people with non-SA800/400 drives on board and with suitable technical knowledge then there's nothing to stop them being supported from day 1 - but I suspect that most people will be more familiar with the SAxxx drives. > Since conversion between USB interface and memory cards is readily > available, either would do. But, howzbout RS232 and/or "centronics" > parallel? I do think that a comms mechanism between device and more modern machine would be nice, purely to save swapping 'local storage' (CF, USB stick, whatever) around so much. However, I wouldn't think it vital for an initial release (or any kind of proof of concept). Note that I am hoping that a CF card (or USB stick) has fast enough data transfer rates so that the gadget doesn't actually *need* a big pile of local memory - it can just operate to/from the card/stick direct. In other words, the card/stick isn't just a means of getting data to the device - it *is* the device's local working storage too. That's perhaps not in keeping with what others are thinking - but personally I'd prefer the lower complexity / cost / parts count / development time if it can be shown that there's no actual need for local memory (other than the obvious few bytes of operating RAM - which with something like a PIC is quite possibly all on-board anyway) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 7 06:08:16 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 06:08:16 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> <4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45780430.2080400@yahoo.co.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > 9000 VAX wrote: >> I don't know how much times a flash memory can be written. It might be >> OK to >> make a bootable device from it. >> >> My concern is about how to make replacement RL02, RD53 or similar. Flash >> memory might not be good for this purpose. >> >> vax, 9000 > > Static RAM and a nicad? If the interface is CF, which is just IDE, then I suppose it's possible to just hook an IDE hard disk up instead. Maybe :-) (I've often wondered if I can do this with my digital camera, and the camera will automagically know how much storage it has - but I presume that because the camera uses a FAT filesystem it'll get upset around the 500MB mark and probably not recognise anything beyond that) cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Dec 7 08:39:04 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 08:39:04 -0600 Subject: hp 9153c In-Reply-To: <245752.29606.qm@web51515.mail.yahoo.com> References: <245752.29606.qm@web51515.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45782788.1090703@mdrconsult.com> Philipp Rey wrote: > hi carlos! > > i saw your thread on classiccmp.org. you seem to know alot about hp-ux. so here's my question: do you know of a way/program to convert dos/windows ascii files so they can be read by hp 9153c disk drive running on a hp 9000 series 300 computer. i think what i need is to be able to convert fat/ntfs file system to a lif, right? If your 9000 is networked with the Windows system, you can probably just ftp the file across in ASCII mode. Doc From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Dec 7 09:16:03 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:16:03 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45780430.2080400@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> <45780430.2080400@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200612071016.03854.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 07 December 2006 07:08, Jules Richardson wrote: > (I've often wondered if I can do this with my digital camera, and the > camera will automagically know how much storage it has - but I presume > that because the camera uses a FAT filesystem it'll get upset around > the 500MB mark and probably not recognise anything beyond that) FAT16 works fine up to 2GB, and you can buy 4GB and larger flash memory for cameras... It's possible that your camera will do FAT32 just fine, and work with larger than 2GB filesystems. 500MB had to do with a cylinder/head/sector number limitation when you combined the maximums you could do with IDE and the limits imposed by BIOS calls. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 7 10:05:38 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 10:05:38 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <200612071016.03854.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> <45780430.2080400@yahoo.co.uk> <200612071016.03854.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <45783BD2.7000302@yahoo.co.uk> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 07 December 2006 07:08, Jules Richardson wrote: >> (I've often wondered if I can do this with my digital camera, and the >> camera will automagically know how much storage it has - but I presume >> that because the camera uses a FAT filesystem it'll get upset around >> the 500MB mark and probably not recognise anything beyond that) > > FAT16 works fine up to 2GB, and you can buy 4GB and larger flash memory > for cameras... It's possible that your camera will do FAT32 just fine, > and work with larger than 2GB filesystems. Interesting. The camera's manual (it's a Canon G5 so what, three or four years old?) doesn't list anything past 256MB - but then it's quite possible that 256MB was the biggest (and 'Canon approved') card around at the time. I tend to find that if I'm taking shots of things like PCBs that it takes a while to get the tripod and backdrop set up 'just right', so anything that doesn't require me to disturb the camera (such as swapping CF cards) is a plus. Other than that it's not a problem anyway, so it was more a case of idle speculation as to whether it would work :-) cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Dec 7 10:11:46 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:11:46 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site><1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site><4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> <136201c719df$0d048570$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> I haven't been following this thread too closely... but if it's going to be a machine independent storage device, why is there talk about it being a replacement for a floppy drive? Most of the machines in my collection didn't have floppy drives available. There was also talk of holding the flux transitions in a memory buffer. Is that possible on a machine with only say... 8K of core when you consider the additional software that must be present in the machine to interface? I would think the best interface to a host is serial (from a common denominator standpoint), and then provide different software on each host to make it appear as a drive of the chosen type. In other words, let the same device that can act as an RL02 on an DEC 11/20 also act as a 7900A on an HP 2100. I'd sure be willing to attempt finding time to write the HP specific end :) Jay West From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Thu Dec 7 10:28:32 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:28:32 +0100 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> <136201c719df$0d048570$f0fea8c0@alpha> <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1165508912.30774.423.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2006-12-07 at 10:11 -0600, Jay West wrote: > I would think the best interface to a host is serial (from a common > denominator standpoint), and then provide different software on each host to > make it appear as a drive of the chosen type. Wouldn't it make more sense to design SCSI cards for the different machines which emulated the various relevant native disk/tape interfaces? It would allow you to hook up any ol' removable media, or just design a SCSI removable flash drive or something... -Tore From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Dec 7 10:44:03 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 11:44:03 -0500 Subject: Help needed in identifying an early IC In-Reply-To: <000001c719b0$cbc21060$176fa8c0@obie> References: <000001c719b0$cbc21060$176fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: On Dec 6, 2006, at 10:35 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > I've come across a few old ICs and haven't been able to find out much > about them - lots of places on the 'net are willing to sell them but I > couldn't find a data sheet - only one clue that they _might_ be dual > op-amps. They are small cans (TO-??) with eight leads protruding from > the bottom, marked SG 1458T with a 1976 date code. Any help > identifying > them would be appreciated. Kind of hoping they're really some sort of > shift register ... 1458 is the "base" number for a frequently second-sourced dual op- amp. It is basically a dual 741. That package is most like a TO-99. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 7 10:52:47 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 08:52:47 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2006 at 10:11, Jay West wrote: > I haven't been following this thread too closely... but if it's going to > be a machine independent storage device, why is there talk about it being > a replacement for a floppy drive? Most of the machines in my collection > didn't have floppy drives available. There was also talk of holding the > flux transitions in a memory buffer. Is that possible on a machine with > only say... 8K of core when you consider the additional software that must > be present in the machine to interface? I was the one who was talking about a floppy replacement, only because the topic dovetailed nicely with something I'm currently "back of envelope-ing". Said floppy replacement would (within limits) not give a whit what the host machine was or its level of intelligence. It would simply be a plug-in replacement for a standard floppy and have all the smarts needed for that purpose self-contained. All of the other solutions that I'm reading about on this thread appear to be less-than-transparent replacements for existing devices in that they require some kind of software on the host system. The floppy drive replacement would not--you'd merely plug it in as a replacement floppy. If you're looking for a serial-interface (RS232/422/485) FC board, I've already posted a link to a commerical one that retails for under $70 and supports up to 4GB cards. Cheers, Chuck From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Dec 7 10:59:48 2006 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 08:59:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help needed in identifying an early IC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <462153.55134.qm@web53702.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Dave, that info is consistent with the fragmentary identification I found. Oh well, looks like I won't be building a shift-register memory device with these! Jack Dave McGuire wrote: On Dec 6, 2006, at 10:35 PM, Jack Rubin wrote: > I've come across a few old ICs and haven't been able to find out much > about them - lots of places on the 'net are willing to sell them but I > couldn't find a data sheet - only one clue that they _might_ be dual > op-amps. They are small cans (TO-??) with eight leads protruding from > the bottom, marked SG 1458T with a 1976 date code. Any help > identifying > them would be appreciated. Kind of hoping they're really some sort of > shift register ... 1458 is the "base" number for a frequently second-sourced dual op- amp. It is basically a dual 741. That package is most like a TO-99. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 7 11:02:42 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 11:02:42 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site><1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site><4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> <136201c719df$0d048570$f0fea8c0@alpha> <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45784932.6080008@yahoo.co.uk> Jay West wrote: > I haven't been following this thread too closely... but if it's going to > be a machine independent storage device, why is there talk about it > being a replacement for a floppy drive? I think some of us (myself included) sort of hijacked the thread (sorry Warren!). Personally I don't think that true independence (i.e. a device for any machine) is possible, partly because as you say some systems lack the necessary abilities, and mainly because it's so much work (heck, how many different systems have been built over the years? How many different interface boards would have to be made and software written to access them?) Targetting a specific storage medium - such as the floppy, whose days are numbered - does seem like a worthwhile project, though. Even there there are a lot of access methods to rotating removeable magnetic media, so picking the most common (such as SA400/800 drives) seems a sensible starting point. > There was also talk of > holding the flux transitions in a memory buffer. Only within the context of the on-board memory for a device which emulated a floppy drive, I think. Such a device doesn't make any assumptions about the system's hardware other than needing to know the data transfer rate across the floppy interface. > In other words, let the same device that can act as an RL02 on an DEC > 11/20 also act as a 7900A on an HP 2100. I'd sure be willing to attempt > finding time to write the HP specific end :) Great, so that's one tiny corner of the HP world covered, then ;-) Seriously, I really think it's waaay too much work (and in fact probably impossible; there must be plenty of systems out there for which sufficient technical documentation to build an interface and write the software no longer exists) However, emulating the common devices used as primary storage on vintage machines I think is a little more achievable; there are way less possible types than there are possible systems. It'd still be a daunting task to try and do everything - hence my feeling we should pick something common like the floppy drive (with the most common interface) for starters. cheers Jules From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Thu Dec 7 11:13:12 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 10:13:12 -0700 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <200612070910.kB79A6q9057035@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612070910.kB79A6q9057035@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <45784BA8.2070407@rogerwilco.org> On 6/12/06 01:45, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >> At 8:08 PM +0000 12/5/06, Adrian Graham wrote: > >> >>> We have some RD53s to test for a customer..... >> > >> > >> You have my sympathy. > > Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up > the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the > systems I wrote in the 1980's...... A microVAX II that I acquired earlier this year included a RD53/Micropolis drive. After reading various posts about these drives I had very low expectations for reviving it and hopefully discovering something interesting on it. And to make matters more dire, during the pickup, when hefting the BA123 box to load it into the truck, the drive+sled slipped out and fell to the concrete floor, probably about 14". So, with absolutely no positive expectations, after getting things ready for a quick drive dump by netbooting NetBSD and setting up a remote mount, I fired up the drives. Lo and behold, it worked! It spun up nicely, I heard the heads seek to 0 and all was good. Turned out that the drive only had a minimal Ultrix root filesystem, but I'm quite pleased that the drive still seems to work. I've fired it up many times since in the past 6 months with no problems. Here's a suggestion. Knock that drive hard! ;) If the problem is that the heads are 'stuck', it just might kick them off the stop. If the drive is considered dead, might be worth a try! J From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Dec 7 11:14:41 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 12:14:41 -0500 Subject: Maxtor XT1140/2140 PCB needed Message-ID: <01C719F9.65BBB520@mse-d03> By any chance, does anyone have a circuit board from a scrapped Maxtor XT1140 or XT2140 (apparently interchangeable) that they'd consider parting with? mike From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Dec 7 11:15:24 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 12:15:24 -0500 Subject: PDP11 adventures Message-ID: <01C719F9.66D90C00@mse-d03> ------------------------Original Message: From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: PDP11 adventures At 7:00 PM +0000 12/6/06, Adrian Graham wrote: >Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up >the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I >wrote in the 1980's...... If it's just something like the heads sticking, it might be possible to revive the drive, at least long enough to get the data off. BTW, while several other people have done this over the years, I didn't have any luck the one time I tried to revive an RD53, so you'll want to ask someone other than me any questions. :^) I've even heard of people running the drives for years after fixing the problem. Zane -----------------Reply:------------------------------------------------------------------- I've run "sticky" Seagates for years; just had to give 'em a little push start every time there was a power failure. Here's another tip regarding RD53's mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (From http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~jmcm/info/rd53fix.txt) [RD53 spins up and down again] This is a common failure mode for RD53s. If you have backups of what's on the drive, then discard that drive and get a new one. If you have critical data on that drive that you need to save, here's a trick that might let you get it running for one last time: 1. Remove the drive from the machine. Disconnect the two data cables and the power cable. If the drive has the plastic "sled" that DEC uses to mount drives, remove that. 2. Remove the two screws that hold the main circuit board on the bottom of the drive. 3. Flip the logic board up, taking care not to damage it or any of the ribbon- like flexible circuits attached to it. 4. Underneath that board is the servo board. On one side of that board is a small flexible circuit that originates in the sealed drive housing and terminates in a plug on the servo board; I believe it's got three pins. Disconnect this plug. 5. With the drive in this partially-disassembled state, re-connect the two data cables and the power cable. Power-up the system. At this point, the drive should spin up and stay up, but will not go 'ready'. If the drive will not stay spun up at this point, then the drive is beyond help and you are out of luck. 6. If the drive is spinning OK then re-connect the ribbon cable to the servo board. The drive should go 'ready'. 7. Bring up your system and back up those data! When replacing the drive, a Micropolis 1325, I suggest replacing it with a better unit. A Micropolis 1335 will work OK -- all you need to do is jumper position R7 on the drive's logic board for DEC controllers to recognize it as an RD53. Better yet, get a Maxtor 2190 which is a DEC RD54. Not only do these drives hold more, they seem to last longer. Good luck, ---Bob. -- Bob Hoffman, N3CVL From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 7 11:58:21 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 11:58:21 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? Message-ID: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / configuration and FTP client software so that I can connect to a remote FTP server from MSDOS? I don't think I've ever set up such a config from scratch. I can live with 10Mbps speeds if required (would DOS drivers even drive a card at anything more anyway?) NIC cards I seem to have available: Netgear FA310TX (PCI) HP 88809L (ISA) 3Com Etherlink III (PCI) 3Com Etherlink III (ISA) Asix NV100AM (PCI) 'Network Everywhere' NC100 (PCI) 3Com 3C905 (PCI) The ISA boards perhaps have the drawback that they're software configurable, so I have no idea what settings they'll want to use (or which interface), or how well they'll behave in the new-ish system I need to put a card in. The PCI boards on the other hand are newer so maybe DOS drivers don't even exist for them... (Etherlink III's were always reliable I seem to recall, but I never did like the idea of them being software configurable; it was much nicer to have jumpers on a card and *know* what it was configured as!) cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 7 12:09:22 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 10:09:22 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> References: , , <4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4577E852.26438.32982D7E@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Dec 2006 at 15:40, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Static RAM and a nicad? How about MRAM? http://www.eetechbrief.com/browse_archived_events.php?cat_id=6 35 nsec. and unlimited writes. Cheers, Chuck From feedle at feedle.net Thu Dec 7 12:24:50 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 11:24:50 -0700 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Dec 2006 at 10:11, Jay West wrote: > > >> I haven't been following this thread too closely... but if it's going to >> be a machine independent storage device, why is there talk about it being >> a replacement for a floppy drive? Most of the machines in my collection >> didn't have floppy drives available. There was also talk of holding the >> flux transitions in a memory buffer. Is that possible on a machine with >> only say... 8K of core when you consider the additional software that must >> be present in the machine to interface? >> > > I was the one who was talking about a floppy replacement, only > because the topic dovetailed nicely with something I'm currently > "back of envelope-ing". > > Said floppy replacement would (within limits) not give a whit what > the host machine was or its level of intelligence. It would simply > be a plug-in replacement for a standard floppy and have all the > smarts needed for that purpose self-contained. Chuck: It sounds like what you are looking for would be a microcontroller, some Flash memory (or possibly a CF/SD/MMC/whatever slot), with a couple of common floppy drive connectors (card-edge [5 1/4], card-edge [8"], and the modern pin-style [for 3 1/2"]). The device could be "dumb" in the first stages and just use, say, 2 megabytes of Flash. A more advanced version would have a small display and the aforementioned memory slot, and give you a choice of disk images stored. The "uber" advanced version might even understand some of the standard disk-image formats, so you could take (as an example) a CP/M or Apple ][ disk image directly from the Internet, drop it on a CF card, and plug it in to the computer in question and boot from it. Heck, while we're at it, add a mp3 decoder chip, so we can put cassette images on it. *chuckle* The microcontroller would interpret drive step instructions and return data from the track being read. It could also probably be designed to turn it around: connect up a standard floppy drive of your liking, stick a disk in, and it would make a disk image. I don't know enough about how floppy interfaces work, but I know enough about microcontrollers to see this as being a "not too difficult" project from the hardware side. Coding it might be difficult, getting all the timings right.. but it certainly does not strike me as "impossible". From feedle at feedle.net Thu Dec 7 12:52:47 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 11:52:47 -0700 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <457862FF.7000605@feedle.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / > configuration and FTP client software so that I can connect to a > remote FTP server from MSDOS? All you need to know: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/2884/dosint.htm From fryers at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 12:56:03 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:56:03 +0000 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Hey All, On 07/12/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / configuration > and FTP client software so that I can connect to a remote FTP server from MSDOS? Have done this in the past. There is/was a packet driver collection for a number of ISA based NICs - most of them in common supply. Then, NCSA Telnet (I think) included an FTP client. I *should* have all the software floating about (rotating) somewhere. From memory, it seemed to work quite well. [chomp] Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 7 13:17:28 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:17:28 -0700 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <200612071016.03854.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> <45780430.2080400@yahoo.co.uk> <200612071016.03854.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <457868C8.2010006@jetnet.ab.ca> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 07 December 2006 07:08, Jules Richardson wrote: > >>(I've often wondered if I can do this with my digital camera, and the >>camera will automagically know how much storage it has - but I presume >>that because the camera uses a FAT filesystem it'll get upset around >>the 500MB mark and probably not recognise anything beyond that) > > > FAT16 works fine up to 2GB, and you can buy 4GB and larger flash memory > for cameras... It's possible that your camera will do FAT32 just fine, > and work with larger than 2GB filesystems. > > 500MB had to do with a cylinder/head/sector number limitation when you > combined the maximums you could do with IDE and the limits imposed by > BIOS calls. Right now I am trying to build OS/8 ( for the SBC6120 PDP/8 clone ) and I have a whole 2 meg of file space per platter -- up to 8 platters for the drive. I am quite sure 500 meg will work fine for most classic computer systems. > Pat From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 7 13:20:05 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 19:20:05 +0000 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <457743C7.8030407@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 6/12/06 22:27, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: >> Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up >> the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I >> wrote in the 1980's...... > > What actually fails in them? Head actuator I think; it powers up and spins up, doesn't sound headcrashed but I can't hear or feel the heads move..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 7 13:24:54 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 19:24:54 +0000 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <45784BA8.2070407@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: On 7/12/06 17:13, "J Blaser" wrote: > And to make matters more dire, during the pickup, when hefting the BA123 box > to load it into the truck, the drive+sled slipped out and fell to the concrete > floor, probably about 14". Wasn't the standard drop height for those things 24" onto concrete and they'd survive? Or am I thinking of later DEC drives..... > Here's a suggestion. Knock that drive hard! ;) If the problem is that the > heads are 'stuck', it just might kick them off the stop. If the drive is > considered dead, might be worth a try! Yep, nothing to lose! I'll be trying it on Monday after a weekend of Alpha DS25s, ES40s and an HP EVA4000 with 56 146gb drives :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 7 13:28:34 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:28:34 -0700 Subject: mirrors - pdp stuff Message-ID: <45786B62.80206@jetnet.ab.ca> Does anybody have a mirror back up of this site? http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/ Hate to lose it if the *ONE* site dies. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Dec 7 13:26:22 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 19:26:22 +0000 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Dec 2006 11:58:21 CST." <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200612071926.TAA18337@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jules Richardson said: > > Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / configuration > and FTP client software so that I can connect to a remote FTP server from MSDOS? > > I don't think I've ever set up such a config from scratch. I can live with > 10Mbps speeds if required (would DOS drivers even drive a card at anything > more anyway?) > > NIC cards I seem to have available: > > Netgear FA310TX (PCI) > HP 88809L (ISA) > 3Com Etherlink III (PCI) > 3Com Etherlink III (ISA) > Asix NV100AM (PCI) > 'Network Everywhere' NC100 (PCI) > 3Com 3C905 (PCI) > > The ISA boards perhaps have the drawback that they're software configurable, > so I have no idea what settings they'll want to use (or which interface), or > how well they'll behave in the new-ish system I need to put a card in. The PCI > boards on the other hand are newer so maybe DOS drivers don't even exist for > them... > > (Etherlink III's were always reliable I seem to recall, but I never did like > the idea of them being software configurable; it was much nicer to have > jumpers on a card and *know* what it was configured as!) Mr Sullivan has pointed you to suitable resources, but if you run into problems drop me an email, I run a couple of DOS machines using FTP, telnet etc. I'm using 3Com Etherlink (ISA) and an old NE2000 compat. both work a treat using the crynwr driver. Software config is no problem on the 3Com cards, there's a DOS program for the job available from 3Com, or whatever they're known as now. (I've got copies anyway) The NCSA Telnet package includes a FTP client/server. Now if only there was Lynx for DOS :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 13:48:38 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 14:48:38 -0500 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <200612071926.TAA18337@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200612071926.TAA18337@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <45787016.2050004@gmail.com> Stan Barr wrote: > Now if only there was Lynx for DOS :-) There is... you just have to use an older version. Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 7 13:49:19 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 13:49:19 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net> References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk> C. Sullivan wrote: > Chuck: > > It sounds like what you are looking for would be a microcontroller, some > Flash memory (or possibly a CF/SD/MMC/whatever slot), with a couple of > common floppy drive connectors (card-edge [5 1/4], card-edge [8"], and > the modern pin-style [for 3 1/2"]). Basing it around the size of a stock 3.5" floppy drive, with the same mounting points, might be nice. Card slot / LCD / whatever at the front, stock power and pin connector at the back. Convenient mounting for systems with 3.5" drives, or with 5.25" via a bracket (I bet lots of us have one of those brackets tidied away). 8" is left as a bit more of an engineering exercise for the reader :-) > so you could take (as an example) a CP/M or Apple ][ disk image directly > from the Internet, drop it on a CF card, and plug it in to the computer > in question and boot from it. Heck, while we're at it, add a mp3 > decoder chip, so we can put cassette images on it. *chuckle* Bah, give it a wireless card and it can get its own darn images from the Internet! ;-) To be honest, I'd like it if the device did have a direct-link capability to the outside world (whether it be RS232, USB, Ethernet, parallel, SCSI, or whatever). But I'm not *that* bothered if it doesn't; it's not that difficult to sneakernet a CF card back and forth between the device and a modern system (except that I blew my card reader up a couple of months back :) IMHO: I think that having the device aware of sector, let alone filesystem, structure is a mistake though - it just adds complexity, increases firmware size, and can never hope to support all the systems out there anyway. Better to make the device good at its primary job - emulating a standard floppy drive - and leave support for more complex things to tools that can exist on a more modern machine as and when people feel like writing them. > I don't know enough about how floppy interfaces work, but I know enough > about microcontrollers to see this as being a "not too difficult" > project from the hardware side. Coding it might be difficult, getting > all the timings right.. but it certainly does not strike me as > "impossible". Timings shouldn't be too tricky I would have thought. Once you know the data rate and RPM then you know how often to sample the data stream (on floppy write) or output the current bit (on floppy read). There aren't many more parameters; you'd have to simulate step rate and motor on/off delays but that's about it (sensible defaults would probably work in a lot of cases as they can be a lot faster than a real drive - making them slow enough so as not to cause problems is likely the issue) If I knew anything about PIC design* I'd get to doing some messing around with it right now... :-) * assuming that a PIC is fast enough; it'll have to read/write to the floppy interface side at several times the floppy data transfer rate, so several MHz - then there are program overheads on top of that... (you could almost do a DMA approach to/from buffer memory actually and have the CPU relatively slow...) cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From wizard at voyager.net Thu Dec 7 13:56:47 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 14:56:47 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45780430.2080400@yahoo.co.uk> References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> <4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> <45780430.2080400@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <1165521407.32029.194.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2006-12-07 at 06:08 -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: > If the interface is CF, which is just IDE, then I suppose it's possible to > just hook an IDE hard disk up instead. Maybe :-) > > (I've often wondered if I can do this with my digital camera, and the camera > will automagically know how much storage it has - but I presume that because > the camera uses a FAT filesystem it'll get upset around the 500MB mark and > probably not recognise anything beyond that) I personally use a 1 GB Compact Flash card in my Nikon 990, and it sees the whole Gig. Any point of confusion not related to specific devices must be 'north' of that point, and probably past that of the 4GB cards I have seen advertised. Due to binary math, 16 GB could well be a cut-off point. Apparently, some cards HAVE large (1Gb or greater) hard disks on them, also, so they may be even more expandable that that. (Of course, how a hard drive fits on a CF card form factor boggles MY mind, at least...) Oh, and thanks to EVERYONE who has commented on this topic. It's not really surprising that this subject generated some interest, but the depth and range of the discussion has been most gratifying and interesting. Thanks, again, to all involved! Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From rollerton at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 14:03:42 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:03:42 -0600 Subject: Maxtor XT1140/2140 PCB needed In-Reply-To: <01C719F9.65BBB520@mse-d03> References: <01C719F9.65BBB520@mse-d03> Message-ID: <2789adda0612071203y546405c2q29a184cb9a4ff17b@mail.gmail.com> was that the 120MB ST506 drive? On 12/7/06, M H Stein wrote: > > By any chance, does anyone have a circuit board from a scrapped > Maxtor XT1140 or XT2140 (apparently interchangeable) that they'd > consider parting with? > > mike > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 7 14:17:47 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:17:47 -0800 Subject: Maxtor XT1140/2140 PCB needed In-Reply-To: <2789adda0612071203y546405c2q29a184cb9a4ff17b@mail.gmail.com> References: <01C719F9.65BBB520@mse-d03>, <2789adda0612071203y546405c2q29a184cb9a4ff17b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4578066B.1673.330DBC7C@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2006 at 14:03, Robert Ollerton wrote: > was that the 120MB ST506 drive? I believe so--and I seem to remember that it also came in ESDI and SCSI-I flavors. Did this thing ever have a corresponding Miniscribe twin? It's been ages since I powered the one sitting on my shelf, but I seem to recall it was just as noisy on seeks as my Atasi/Priam drive of the same size. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 7 14:01:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 13:01:40 -0700 Subject: mirrors - pdp stuff In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Dec 2006 12:28:34 -0700. <45786B62.80206@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <45786B62.80206 at jetnet.ab.ca>, woodelf writes: > Does anybody have a mirror back up of this site? > http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/ > Hate to lose it if the *ONE* site dies. Archive.org has stuff for it, I'm not sure if its 100% complete, but you might want to check. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rollerton at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 14:39:56 2006 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:39:56 -0600 Subject: Maxtor XT1140/2140 PCB needed In-Reply-To: <4578066B.1673.330DBC7C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C719F9.65BBB520@mse-d03> <2789adda0612071203y546405c2q29a184cb9a4ff17b@mail.gmail.com> <4578066B.1673.330DBC7C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2789adda0612071239t40cf1189u18819bb79639765d@mail.gmail.com> I am pretty sure I have at least one of those, but I dont want to scrap it. A freind of mine might have some junkers, I am asking him now. On 12/7/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 7 Dec 2006 at 14:03, Robert Ollerton wrote: > > > was that the 120MB ST506 drive? > > I believe so--and I seem to remember that it also came in ESDI and > SCSI-I flavors. Did this thing ever have a corresponding > Miniscribe twin? It's been ages since I powered the one sitting on > my shelf, but I seem to recall it was just as noisy on seeks as my > Atasi/Priam drive of the same size. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From feedle at feedle.net Thu Dec 7 14:55:04 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 13:55:04 -0700 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk> References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net> <4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > C. Sullivan wrote: >> Chuck: >> >> It sounds like what you are looking for would be a microcontroller, >> some Flash memory (or possibly a CF/SD/MMC/whatever slot), with a >> couple of common floppy drive connectors (card-edge [5 1/4], >> card-edge [8"], and the modern pin-style [for 3 1/2"]). > > Basing it around the size of a stock 3.5" floppy drive, with the same > mounting points, might be nice. That was kind-of my thinking. I would build it in a full-height 5 1/4" form factor as well, only because the extra space would be nice and it would be easier to have both (all three?) connector formats in the larger frame. > 8" is left as a bit more of an engineering exercise for the reader :-) For my money, 8" compatibility would be VERY nice, especially for CP/M and other obsolete machines of similar vintage (TRS-80 Model II comes to mind). It is my understanding that there isn't much difference between 5 1/4" and 8" electrically, so it might be a moot point. > >> so you could take (as an example) a CP/M or Apple ][ disk image >> directly from the Internet, drop it on a CF card, and plug it in to >> the computer in question and boot from it. Heck, while we're at it, >> add a mp3 decoder chip, so we can put cassette images on it. *chuckle* > > Bah, give it a wireless card and it can get its own darn images from > the Internet! ;-) > > To be honest, I'd like it if the device did have a direct-link > capability to the outside world (whether it be RS232, USB, Ethernet, > parallel, SCSI, or whatever). But I'm not *that* bothered if it > doesn't; it's not that difficult to sneakernet a CF card back and > forth between the device and a modern system (except that I blew my > card reader up a couple of months back :) My view was that the "1.0" version would have USB or similar. > > IMHO: I think that having the device aware of sector, let alone > filesystem, structure is a mistake though - it just adds complexity, > increases firmware size, and can never hope to support all the systems > out there anyway. Better to make the device good at its primary job - > emulating a standard floppy drive - and leave support for more complex > things to tools that can exist on a more modern machine as and when > people feel like writing them. Understood. My intention was to make it work well as a drop-in drive replacement, and add the other stuff as 'enhanced' features for a 2.0 (or later) device. > > If I knew anything about PIC design* I'd get to doing some messing > around with it right now... :-) A fast PIC could do it. I was leaning more towards something a little more sophisticated (not that a PIC can't be), if for no other reason to support the creeping features I pointed out above. Also, the floppy timings on GCR formats can get a bit weird. FM/MFM should be fairly easy. Hard-sector formats might even be easier, or harder. Again, I don't know enough about the signals to really know. I do a lot of microcontroller crap. I'm in the middle of a move right now (from Portland, OR to Billings, MT), so I don't have a way of testing any theories right now.. but would definately be interested in pursuing this as a project early in the new year once I'm settled here. Anybody interested in starting up a mailing list specifically to start napkin-drawing this thing? I have a listserv... From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Dec 7 13:48:33 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 19:48:33 +0000 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45787011.1050302@gjcp.net> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 7/12/06 17:13, "J Blaser" wrote: > Yep, nothing to lose! I'll be trying it on Monday after a weekend of Alpha > DS25s, ES40s and an HP EVA4000 with 56 146gb drives :) And if that doesn't work... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glRMdVc_6cQ That drive has burnt its last coaster. Gordon From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Dec 7 14:07:01 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:07:01 +0000 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45787465.2060206@gjcp.net> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 6/12/06 22:27, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: > >>> Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up >>> the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I >>> wrote in the 1980's...... >> What actually fails in them? > > Head actuator I think; it powers up and spins up, doesn't sound headcrashed > but I can't hear or feel the heads move..... I know that some old MFM drives *did* end up with the heads "stuck" in place. A few people have said that RD53s are bad for that, so it might be worth a shot. You can't make it work any less... Gordon. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Dec 7 15:22:22 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 16:22:22 -0500 Subject: Need any "old" tape media? Message-ID: <200612071622.22234.pat@computer-refuge.org> I've got a stack of 8mm (doesn't mention a size, a mix of Verbatim data tapes, and Sony and Fuji video tapes), 4mm DDS1 (both 60M and 90M), and DLT3 tapes at work which we're getting set to throw away... the DDS/8mm tapes have some data on them, and will be degaussed... the DLT3's are unused, from several years ago. Asking $2/tape plus shipping. I've got 50-100 of each available. If I don't hear anything by mid next week, they'll be thrown in the trash. Also, if anyone needs DLT or LTO tape cases (or 8mm or 4mm, assuming the tapes aren't sold), let me know. We've got a bunch of empty cases that are going in the trash for those as well. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 15:38:45 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 16:38:45 -0500 Subject: Help needed in identifying an early IC In-Reply-To: <462153.55134.qm@web53702.mail.yahoo.com> References: <462153.55134.qm@web53702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Thanks Dave, that info is consistent with the fragmentary identification I found. Oh well, looks like I won't be building a shift-register memory device with these! I think I have a bunch of 1404As in my stock - they are 1K by 1, I think. In sexy metal cans, too. -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 15:44:31 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 10:44:31 +1300 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12/8/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > I can live with 10Mbps speeds if required (would DOS drivers even > drive a card at anything more anyway?) Strictly speaking, DOS is not limiting your signalling speed, but the ISA bus could be. There was one, only one, 100Mbps ISA card I ever ran across (by 3Com, but I can't remember the model number) - it had a PCI Ethernet chip and ISA<->PCI bridge chip, giving it, essentially, an onboard PCI bus. I considered supporting it with the GG2 Bus+, but I couldn't find one at the time for less than a couple hundred bucks and figured my customers wouldn't be able to, either. Plenty of PCI 100Mbps cards, but I don't know how much DOS support there is for those (packet drivers, etc). -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 7 15:45:10 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:45:10 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net> <4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk> <45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> Message-ID: <45788B66.30107@yahoo.co.uk> C. Sullivan wrote: >> 8" is left as a bit more of an engineering exercise for the reader :-) > > For my money, 8" compatibility would be VERY nice Oh, absolutely. I merely meant that building a suitable mounting bracket would be done on a per-case basis (were there ever companies officially selling 5.25" to 8" drive brackets? I've never come across such a thing) > It is my understanding that there isn't much difference between > 5 1/4" and 8" electrically, so it might be a moot point. Certainly it seems that driving a 8" drive using an 5.25" disk controller isn't too difficult in a lot of cases. I don't know if the reverse is true though, i.e. how easy it is to make the interface found on a typical 5.25" drive work with a system that's expecting 8" disks. >> To be honest, I'd like it if the device did have a direct-link >> capability to the outside world (whether it be RS232, USB, Ethernet, >> parallel, SCSI, or whatever). But I'm not *that* bothered if it >> doesn't; it's not that difficult to sneakernet a CF card back and >> forth between the device and a modern system (except that I blew my >> card reader up a couple of months back :) > > My view was that the "1.0" version would have USB or similar. Maybe; but it's not vital to operation as the intention would be for the primary storage to be something like a CF card or a USB stick. Although that is interesting; the primary store is a USB stick then it's presumably easy to code the firmware so that the device can be plugged in via a cable to a system running suitable host software as an alternative (providing the device holds sufficient local memory to buffer a track and USB data transfer to the host is fast enough to not upset whatever the floppy emulator's plugged in to). Of course I suspect that most of us on here (and in the context of vintage hardware in general) are more comfortable with something like RS232... Personally if I were building it I'd put an expansion bus connector on the board and forget about any kind of host interface for the the initial release; people can add daughtercards (and updated firmware) for their favourite comms interface at a later date... >>... > Understood. My intention was to make it work well as a drop-in drive > replacement, and add the other stuff as 'enhanced' features for a 2.0 > (or later) device. Complete agreement. Keep it simple for an initial release; just keep it in mind what direction it *might* take in future, I suppose. Key for an initial release would be getting it to act like a floppy drive *reliably* and working with some form of local storage (personally I like CF, but then I do tend to be a bit anti-USB :-) >> If I knew anything about PIC design* I'd get to doing some messing >> around with it right now... :-) > > A fast PIC could do it. I was leaning more towards something a little > more sophisticated (not that a PIC can't be), if for no other reason to > support the creeping features I pointed out above. Also, the floppy > timings on GCR formats can get a bit weird. FM/MFM should be fairly > easy. That's interesting; personally I hadn't thought about GCR at all really. The sort of thing I have stuck in my head right now has three small boards to it: 1) A 'core' board containing CPU, a bit of addressing logic, some local memory (whether a whole track buffer or not I don't know), LCD / switch logic, ROM, and a header for future expansion. 2) A 'local storage interface' board, such as one holding a Compact Flash connector and any control logic (I'd hope that most work could be done in software) 3) An 'emulation' board containing the floppy side of things - connector, buffers, and simple control logic (again I'd hope software could do the necessary line twiddling. The interface between the boards would just be an expansion bus; essentially just CPU lines and a bit of selection logic. The key is that such an approach allows someone to make the floppy-side 'emulation' board totally different in future (along with a firmware change) to support some completely different floppy electrical specification, or even make it look to a vintage machine like some totally different low-speed data device. Similarly, the 'local storage' side of things could be swapped for something else; but the core elements of the device would be that it does have some form of local storage (even if a remote host is connected via some other comms interface), some form of interface board to a vintage system, and that the 'core' board stays the same (with the exception of firmware changes). But, I'm not a hardware designer, so all of that is probably wrong. :-) > Hard-sector formats might even be easier, or harder. Again, I > don't know enough about the signals to really know. I suspect it's easy enough (but I don't know for sure). It can't be *that* complex, but whether it needs a change in hardware, I don't know. But see above - worst-case it's just a different emulation board. > I do a lot of microcontroller crap. I'm in the middle of a move right > now (from Portland, OR to Billings, MT), so I don't have a way of > testing any theories right now.. but would definately be interested in > pursuing this as a project early in the new year once I'm settled here. > Anybody interested in starting up a mailing list specifically to start > napkin-drawing this thing? I have a listserv... I just said that in a private email to Chuck a few hours ago, too :) I'm all for it - personally what I wouldn't want to see happening is people wanting millions of features from day one, though (that's what kills a lot of theoretical discussions on here! :) But a simple device that looks like an SA400/SA800 type floppy drive and uses some form of 'portable' local storage, and has some reasonable expansion options / future-proofing - yeah, I think that's probably doable. It's not exactly Warren's dream of a 'portable to every system' type device, but it's a still a darn useful thing to have and I suspect would solve a lot of problems for a lot of people (particularly longer-term). Plus it should be reasonably trivial to provide 'floppy to simulator' copying in the future without a physical vintage machine, which means that for not much effort we get the ability to archive possibly-damaged disks from vintage systems onto modern media. (I think Chuck was seeing that as a feature of the simulator, whereas I was seeing it more as a simple box of tricks which sat between the simulator and a physical drive to handle the necessary signalling) cheers Jules (all 'theorised out' today! :) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Dec 7 15:49:48 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:49:48 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <457862FF.7000605@feedle.net> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> <457862FF.7000605@feedle.net> Message-ID: <45788C7C.5090405@yahoo.co.uk> C. Sullivan wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / >> configuration and FTP client software so that I can connect to a >> remote FTP server from MSDOS? > > All you need to know: > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/2884/dosint.htm So, I need a packet driver and a network stack, right? I've found the Etherlink III DOS config utility, so that's probably the card to go for as drivers seem readily available. Does anyone know if the Trumpet stack (hmm, is it even free?) is mirrored for download anywhere? The main Trumpet website is inaccessible (at least from here - I get 'forbidden' errors, but it may be that my ISPs web proxies have screwed up yet again) (The geeky side of me's quite looking forward to playing around with this; I think the last time I used an Ethernetted DOS machine was back in the early 90s :-) cheers Jules From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 7 17:12:34 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 20:12:34 -0300 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site><1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site><4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk><4576E457.6070809@gjcp.net> <45780430.2080400@yahoo.co.uk> <1165521407.32029.194.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <160401c71a55$730a84c0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Oh, and thanks to EVERYONE who has commented on this topic. It's > not really surprising that this subject generated some interest, but the > depth and range of the discussion has been most gratifying and > interesting. Thanks, again, to all involved! Warren, beyond the "commercial" aspects of the device, this is something I see very necessary for the preservation of old computers. My world (unfortunately) revolves around MSX, TRS-80, Apple and like. If I find hard to have good 5 1/4 disks, I can imagine people talking about DEC, VAX and like. DC-600 and DC-2000(?) tapes seems to last forever, but your milegage may vary. I think the construction of a kind of universal device for floppy emulation is the next step into old gear preservation. Greetz from Brazil Alexandre Souza www.tabajara-labs.com.br From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 7 17:14:16 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 20:14:16 -0300 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net><4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk> <45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> Message-ID: <160501c71a55$73c485f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Anybody interested in starting up a mailing list specifically to start > napkin-drawing this thing? I have a listserv... Chalk me on that! But would this kind of chat be offtopic for this list? From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 7 17:09:50 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 20:09:50 -0300 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com><45785C72.6040508@feedle.net> <4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <160301c71a55$72470db0$f0fea8c0@alpha> >> I don't know enough about how floppy interfaces work, but I know enough >> about microcontrollers to see this as being a "not too difficult" project >> from the hardware side. Coding it might be difficult, getting all the >> timings right.. but it certainly does not strike me as "impossible". Jules, seems that it is easy enough. I already started to do some experiments. In my proposition of the three-layers, the first and second layers are almost done. I just need to dig deeper into the floppy innards. Shuggart interface specialists around? :o) For me it HAS to emulate the physical drive, and not the OS/formatting of the target. If you have a bit more work to emulate the physical drive, you'll have a universal device. What about a group digging into that? > If I knew anything about PIC design* I'd get to doing some messing around > with it right now... :-) www.mcselec.com - download BASCOM-AVR and get some Atmega32 or Atmega128, you'll have a great surprise of how easy is to use that. > * assuming that a PIC is fast enough; it'll have to read/write to the > floppy interface side at several times the floppy data transfer rate, so > several MHz - then there are program overheads on top of that... (you > could almost do a DMA approach to/from buffer memory actually and have the > CPU relatively slow...) AFAIK, the "mechanicals" of the drive can be separated into two points: - Mechanical control and sensing: track up/down, motor on/off, select head 0/1, index hole, disk change, density select - Logical encoding of MFM data: get raw sector data, output MFM-encoded data The first is a breeze. The second I have no experience but seems easy enough by what I saw on wikipedia. I have a "digital alignment disk" for 3 1/2 720K floppies. Since the data on this disk is know (and have no sector/track encoding, just raw data), I'll try to read and understand that. If someone is willing to help, contact me privately. I'm using AVR microcontrollers and the Bascom compiler. I'm looking for the shuggart manual of the disk interface (ST-406?). Greetz from Brazil Alexandre Souza From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 16:16:35 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:16:35 -0500 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <45788C7C.5090405@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> <457862FF.7000605@feedle.net> <45788C7C.5090405@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12/7/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > > C. Sullivan wrote: > > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> > >> Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / > >> configuration and FTP client software so that I can connect to a > >> remote FTP server from MSDOS? > > > > All you need to know: > > http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/2884/dosint.htm > > So, I need a packet driver and a network stack, right? I've found the > Etherlink III DOS config utility, so that's probably the card to go for as > drivers seem readily available. > > Does anyone know if the Trumpet stack (hmm, is it even free?) is mirrored > for > download anywhere? The main Trumpet website is inaccessible (at least from > here - I get 'forbidden' errors, but it may be that my ISPs web proxies > have > screwed up yet again) > > (The geeky side of me's quite looking forward to playing around with this; > I > think the last time I used an Ethernetted DOS machine was back in the > early > 90s :-) You can find ssh and sftp for dos too, if it is a >386 PC. I have used Etherlink 3C509 and it worked well on my 386. vax, 9000 cheers > > Jules > > From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 16:23:36 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:23:36 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <160501c71a55$73c485f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net> <4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk> <45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> <160501c71a55$73c485f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: The easiest way to make a floppy drive replacement, in my opnion, is to make an ISA card and to rely on a DOS program. You get everything this way. You can even get a PC104 board and embed your PC into the floppy drive case, and attach whatever media you come in mind with it. vax, 9000, who gets along well with X86, PC and DOS From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 7 16:26:26 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:26:26 -0700 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:14:16 -0300. <160501c71a55$73c485f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: In article <160501c71a55$73c485f0$f0fea8c0 at alpha>, "Alexandre Souza" writes: > Chalk me on that! But would this kind of chat be offtopic for this list? I don't think it would be off topic, but everyone likes to complain about something. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ken at seefried.com Thu Dec 7 16:40:32 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:40:32 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 40, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: <200612072218.kB7MIA50068001@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612072218.kB7MIA50068001@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061207224032.26315.qmail@seefried.com> From: "Ethan Dicks" > Strictly speaking, DOS is not limiting your signalling speed, > but the ISA bus could be. For 100Mbps ethernet, yes. You can only push a fraction of the bandwidth. > There was one, only one, 100Mbps ISA card I ever > ran across (by 3Com, but I can't remember the model number) 3c515 Might not be the only one, though. According to Dan Kegals Fast Ethernet page (http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~dank/fe/) there's a rumor that Cogent and Olicom had ISA 100TX cards. I've never seen or heard of one in the wild. I distinctly recall there was a 100baseVG ISA card (I had a client who was bad at math who wanted to go VG so they wouldn't have to upgrade to PCI desktops). We all know how that turned out. I've also seen someone put a 100Mbps PCMCIA card in an ISA-PCMCIA bridge, but that's stretching the definition a bit. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 7 16:43:47 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:43:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would it take... Message-ID: <909998.96719.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> to make one of these in discrete logic: (if you don't feel like looking, it's an Apple II IDE/Cflash controller) http://cgi.ebay.com/MicroDrive-IDE-Controller-for-Apple-IIe-IIgs_W0QQitemZ300055639046QQihZ020QQcategoryZ80286QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Just a rough chip count. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Dec 7 17:42:18 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 20:42:18 -0300 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net><4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk> <45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> Message-ID: <161201c71a59$d98370f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> BTW, anyone got the SA-400 and FD-400 techinical manuals? I'm googgling it but nothing useful found... Thanks Alexandre Souza www.tabajara-labs.com.br From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Dec 7 16:51:16 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 14:51:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <909998.96719.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <909998.96719.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Chris M wrote: > to make one of these in discrete logic: > > (if you don't feel like looking, it's an Apple II > IDE/Cflash controller) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/MicroDrive-IDE-Controller-for-Apple-IIe-IIgs > _W0QQitemZ300055639046QQihZ020QQcategoryZ80286QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > Just a rough chip count. It looks like there are a couple PLAs, some discrete logic, a microcontroller of some sort, and an EPROM. Frankly, I don't think doing discrete logic for something like this is worth the trouble. The card itself seems sufficiently low-tech already. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 7 16:53:20 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:53:20 -0700 Subject: ISA nics (was: cctalk Digest, Vol 40, Issue 15) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:40:32 -0500. <20061207224032.26315.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: Speaking of ISA NICs, I have a boatload if anyone needs some for cost of shipping. ISA and PCI. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 7 16:52:23 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:52:23 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 40, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:40:32 -0500. <20061207224032.26315.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: In article <20061207224032.26315.qmail at seefried.com>, "Ken Seefried" writes: > Might not be the only one, though. According to Dan Kegals Fast Ethernet > page (http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~dank/fe/) there's a rumor that Cogent and > Olicom had ISA 100TX cards. I've never seen or heard of one in the wild. Didn't Intel make ISA 10/100 cards? Or were they PCI only? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 7 16:59:23 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 14:59:23 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <161201c71a59$d98370f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: , <161201c71a59$d98370f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <45782C4B.9473.33A1B1FF@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2006 at 20:42, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > BTW, anyone got the SA-400 and FD-400 techinical manuals? I'm googgling > it but nothing useful found... Is this what you're looking for? http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/shugart/54102-2_SA400_OEM_Sep78.pdf Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 7 17:02:46 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 15:02:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <561868.27222.qm@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> it doesn't have to be entirely of 7400s or the like, just a design where no *exotic* programming is required. I just wanted an idea. A microcontroller, and whatever else is fine. --- David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Chris M wrote: > > > to make one of these in discrete logic: > > > > (if you don't feel like looking, it's an Apple II > > IDE/Cflash controller) > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/MicroDrive-IDE-Controller-for-Apple-IIe-IIgs > > > _W0QQitemZ300055639046QQihZ020QQcategoryZ80286QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > > > Just a rough chip count. > > It looks like there are a couple PLAs, some discrete > logic, a > microcontroller of some sort, and an EPROM. > Frankly, I don't think doing > discrete logic for something like this is worth the > trouble. The card > itself seems sufficiently low-tech already. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people > normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 17:04:28 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 12:04:28 +1300 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 40, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: <20061207224032.26315.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200612072218.kB7MIA50068001@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20061207224032.26315.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: On 12/8/06, Ken Seefried wrote: > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > Strictly speaking, DOS is not limiting your signalling speed, > > but the ISA bus could be. > > For 100Mbps ethernet, yes. You can only push a fraction of the bandwidth. Indeed. > > There was one, only one, 100Mbps ISA card I ever > > ran across (by 3Com, but I can't remember the model number) > > 3c515 That's the one I remember looking at. Never seen one up close, but I do have the 3Com tech docs at home. > Might not be the only one, though. According to Dan Kegals Fast Ethernet > page (http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~dank/fe/) there's a rumor that Cogent and > Olicom had ISA 100TX cards. I've never seen or heard of one in the wild. Hmm... interesting. New ones on me. > I've also seen someone put a 100Mbps PCMCIA card in an ISA-PCMCIA bridge, > but that's stretching the definition a bit. *slaps forehead* - I'd forgotten about that solution. I have a PS2/e (IBM's "green" 486SLC box w/1 ISA slot) with the quad PCMCIA ISA card (two PCMCIA slots out the front, two out the back). Mine is presently loaded with RedHat 5.3 (it works w/16MB of RAM) and four network cards for use as a software development "faux Cisco PIX" (multiple DMZs, but not enforced security levels). At least two of the four NICs are Xircom 10/100 cards. I think all of the 3Com 10/100 NICs are Cardbus, but there are a few Linux-supported 10/100 16bit PCMCIA NICs (though I'm not as certain about DOS and cardbus services, etc). I've picked up single-slot PCMCIA ISA boards for around $25 at Dayton. Dunno how easy they'd be to find now. -ethan From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Dec 7 14:44:02 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:44:02 -0500 Subject: pdp-8 3 cycle data break? Message-ID: <200612072044.kB7Ki2P1032727@mwave.heeltoe.com> Are there any good *detailed* descriptions about how the 3 cycle data break works on say, a pdp-8/I with an rf08 or df32? I've read 3-4 simple descriptions, but I'd like something that relates - in detail - to the cpu instruction cycles/states (i.e. f0-3,d0-3,e0-3). I'm curious what the exact state machine looks like. I'm also curious if the data break cycles occur as additional cpu states or if they overlap cpu states in any way. I'm resisted diving into schematics mostly due to lazyness (and work), but that may be the next step. I guess I have no seen any good 8/i "principles of operations" either, outside what is said in "Computer Engineering". any pointers/comments appreciated. -brad From jclang at notms.net Thu Dec 7 17:28:29 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:28:29 -0500 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <06120718282900.21876@bell> On Thursday 07 December 2006 12:58, you wrote: > Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / > configuration and FTP client software so that I can connect to a remote FTP > server from MSDOS? > > I don't think I've ever set up such a config from scratch. I can live with > 10Mbps speeds if required (would DOS drivers even drive a card at anything > more anyway?) > > NIC cards I seem to have available: > > Netgear FA310TX (PCI) > HP 88809L (ISA) > 3Com Etherlink III (PCI) > 3Com Etherlink III (ISA) > Asix NV100AM (PCI) > 'Network Everywhere' NC100 (PCI) > 3Com 3C905 (PCI) > > The ISA boards perhaps have the drawback that they're software > configurable, so I have no idea what settings they'll want to use (or which > interface), or how well they'll behave in the new-ish system I need to put > a card in. The PCI boards on the other hand are newer so maybe DOS drivers > don't even exist for them... > > (Etherlink III's were always reliable I seem to recall, but I never did > like the idea of them being software configurable; it was much nicer to > have jumpers on a card and *know* what it was configured as!) > > cheers > > Jules Here's what I use..... Trumpet ABI (not winsock that's different) TCP/IP stack It includes FTP client, telnet and more... D-link ne-2000 clone ISA card and packet driver Tsoft NFS dos 7.0 (aka windows 95 kernel) I use this combination because: it produced the smallest memory foot print (577K free) it will fit on (and boot from) a single floppy it has a documented interface, so I can write code (I had to write my own LPR). The stacks I looked at were: microsoft - serious memory hog novell - won't fit on a floppy and you can't remove the boot disk wattcp - this worked pretty well, but it wasn't a TSR so no ping response without an application running. I have the need to keep a DOS box running to support my prom/gal programmer and a couple of DOS CAD programs. I don't ever intend to buy the same program more than once.... I boot from a 1.4M floppy and NFS mount the "C:" drive. BTW I've also used an INTEL EE/PRO 100 (PCI) with the same setup (different packet driver) and It works just fine. DOS runs pretty good on an 800Mhz. x86. joe lang From feedle at feedle.net Thu Dec 7 17:53:59 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 16:53:59 -0700 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <45788C7C.5090405@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> <457862FF.7000605@feedle.net> <45788C7C.5090405@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <4578A997.1090909@feedle.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > C. Sullivan wrote: >> Jules Richardson wrote: >>> >>> Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / >>> configuration and FTP client software so that I can connect to a >>> remote FTP server from MSDOS? >> >> All you need to know: >> http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/2884/dosint.htm > > So, I need a packet driver and a network stack, right? I've found the > Etherlink III DOS config utility, so that's probably the card to go > for as drivers seem readily available. If I remember properly, you should be able to find a 'packet driver' on the crynwr site for your card. That, plus a packet-driver compatible program, and you're good to go. > > Does anyone know if the Trumpet stack (hmm, is it even free?) is > mirrored for download anywhere? The main Trumpet website is > inaccessible (at least from here - I get 'forbidden' errors, but it > may be that my ISPs web proxies have screwed up yet again) Don't know about trumpet, but I think the CUTCP package from Rutgers has everything you need once you have a packet driver from Crynwr, if I remember right. http://opcenter.cites.uiuc.edu/nas/nash/cutcp/cutcp.html has pointers. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Dec 7 17:42:05 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 16:42:05 -0700 Subject: pdp-8 3 cycle data break? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Dec 2006 15:44:02 -0500. <200612072044.kB7Ki2P1032727@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: In article <200612072044.kB7Ki2P1032727 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, Brad Parker writes: > any pointers/comments appreciated. Maybe something in here? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Dec 7 18:11:03 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:11:03 -0600 (CST) Subject: Need any "old" tape media? In-Reply-To: <200612071622.22234.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200612071622.22234.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I've got a stack of 8mm (doesn't mention a size, a mix of Verbatim data > tapes, and Sony and Fuji video tapes), 4mm DDS1 (both 60M and 90M), and > DLT3 tapes at work which we're getting set to throw away... the DDS/8mm > tapes have some data on them, and will be degaussed... the DLT3's are > unused, from several years ago. Won't degaussing DDS tapes wipe the factory written sync stuff and render the tapes worthless? (That was my experience with some years ago anyway...) -Toth From lee at geekdot.com Thu Dec 7 18:19:34 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 01:19:34 +0100 (CET) Subject: What would it take... Message-ID: <4355.86.144.143.49.1165537174.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > to make one of these in discrete logic: > (if you don't feel like looking, it's an Apple II > IDE/Cflash controller) > Just a rough chip count. Two 8 bit buffers, two 8 bit latches and one GAL20V8 or similar. The GAL isn't essential but saves four or more packages to do the address decoding. Lee. From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Dec 7 18:28:16 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:28:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / > configuration and FTP client software so that I can connect to a remote > FTP server from MSDOS? > > I don't think I've ever set up such a config from scratch. I can live > with 10Mbps speeds if required (would DOS drivers even drive a card at > anything more anyway?) > > NIC cards I seem to have available: > > Netgear FA310TX (PCI) > HP 88809L (ISA) > 3Com Etherlink III (PCI) > 3Com Etherlink III (ISA) > Asix NV100AM (PCI) > 'Network Everywhere' NC100 (PCI) > 3Com 3C905 (PCI) > > The ISA boards perhaps have the drawback that they're software > configurable, so I have no idea what settings they'll want to use (or > which interface), or how well they'll behave in the new-ish system I > need to put a card in. The PCI boards on the other hand are newer so > maybe DOS drivers don't even exist for them... > > (Etherlink III's were always reliable I seem to recall, but I never did > like the idea of them being software configurable; it was much nicer to > have jumpers on a card and *know* what it was configured as!) All of the 3Com cards are software configurable. The utilities and drivers are even available on 3Com's FTP site :) 3Com did tend to support their cards pretty well, and I never had any problems getting different cards to work under dos with a packet driver. The 3C905 is the faster of the 3Com cards you have there, as it supports 100mb. The Etherlink XL 3C900, etc also tended to work pretty well, though they are limited to 10mb. The Etherlink III series 3C509, 3C509B are also very well, supported, though again limited to 10mb. I'd choose a 509B over the original 509 if you need to go with an ISA card though, as it has FIFO support. Some of my personal favorite cards were the so-called NE2500 cards (not NE2000). The chips were made by AMD and their design was a lot more refined than the original NE2000. They weren't as well supported as the generic NE2000 though. All the NE2500 compatible cards I used also made use of a software configuration utility much like the 3Com cards do. -Toth From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 7 18:32:57 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 16:32:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <4355.86.144.143.49.1165537174.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <102934.53289.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lee Davison wrote: > > to make one of these in discrete logic: > > > (if you don't feel like looking, it's an Apple II > > IDE/Cflash controller) > > > Just a rough chip count. > > Two 8 bit buffers, two 8 bit latches and one GAL20V8 > or similar. > The GAL isn't essential but saves four or more > packages to do the > address decoding. So 10 discrete ic's. Why all the fuss then? And why bother with the GAL at all if it only saves 4 chips? I really have to wonder why these developers go to all the trouble they do if that's all it takes (I would have guessed at least 20). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Dec 7 18:35:49 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:35:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2006, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/8/06, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> I can live with 10Mbps speeds if required (would DOS drivers even drive >> a card at anything more anyway?) > > Strictly speaking, DOS is not limiting your signalling speed, but the > ISA bus could be. There was one, only one, 100Mbps ISA card I ever ran > across (by 3Com, but I can't remember the model number) - it had a PCI > Ethernet chip and ISA<->PCI bridge chip, giving it, essentially, an > onboard PCI bus. I considered supporting it with the GG2 Bus+, but I > couldn't find one at the time for less than a couple hundred bucks and > figured my customers wouldn't be able to, either. AFAIK, the only 100mb ISA card 3Com released was the 3C515. Its an odd little card when compared to the other cards 3Com released. The driver really doesn't share much in common with the others either. They never really caught on, mainly due to how common the PCI bus became and because of the card's high cost. That said, they do still turn up in the surplus market from time to time, but they aren't nearly as well supported as the Etherlink III or Etherlink XL series. I can't say I'd recommend them for anything mission critical, but they could be good to play with. I think I gave away the only two I had when I gave away the programming manual I had for them, though I should probably find some more to work with under *BSD. 3Com is *very* good about providing programming manuals if you ask nicely too :) -Toth From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 19:04:50 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 14:04:50 +1300 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <102934.53289.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4355.86.144.143.49.1165537174.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> <102934.53289.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 12/8/06, Chris M wrote: > --- Lee Davison wrote: > > Two 8 bit buffers, two 8 bit latches and one GAL20V8 > > or similar. > > The GAL isn't essential but saves four or more > > packages to do the address decoding. Note the "or more" here... it's not hard to imagine reasonable situations where one GAL saves 6 or 8 popcorn TTL parts, especially where you start using latched outputs. > So 10 discrete ic's. Why all the fuss then? And why > bother with the GAL at all if it only saves 4 chips? > I really have to wonder why these developers go to > all the trouble they do if that's all it takes (I > would have guessed at least 20). There are two major reasons why a hardware developer would use a GAL... 1) board space/interconnections are "expensive" When one is hand-wiring a project, replacing 4 16-20 pin parts with a single 18 or 20 pin part, that's a significant savings of effort. Equally if one is trying to fit in a small space, 4 DIPs is a huge amount of room these days (and there are PLCC GALs, allowing a lot of DIP circuity to fit in one cm^2). 2) GALs are easy to change Practically speaking, folks don't want to rewire a board to change an address setting, so you end up with address comparators, jumpers, etc. With a GAL, for infrequent changes (once or twice over the life of the product, not once or twice per year), you can arrange the logic so that there are no jumpers, but the GAL still does internal address compares, etc. The Spare Time Gizmos Elf2000 does this - if you don't like what devices are selected by which combination of N-lines, etc., take the (provided) GAL source, change it, recompile it with WinCUPL, then burn a GAL to your liking. They are re-usable, so you don't even have to buy a spare unless you'd like to do a quick swap back. The downside, of course, is that as the hobbyist-end-user, you are somewhat out in the cold if you don't own a GAL programmer. They can easily run to hundreds of dollars for basic ones, and, unlike an old 4K EPROM, they are not trivial to make programmers for from scratch. I have an older GAL programmer, so I don't mind GAL-based designs. The only thing that's eluded me lately is programming "C rev" Lattice GAL22V10s. I've had no problems with burning older Lattice GALs or other sizes of new Lattice GALs, so it's been an inconvenience, but not a show stopper. OTOH, I'm willing to look around for a newer programmer and consider an upgrade. I'm not going to give up GALs entirely, so I'll find some solution when the need arises. Others (those not already posessing GAL programmers) might find the jump to be too expensive to justify. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 7 18:32:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 00:32:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <4576A5E7.60607@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Dec 6, 6 11:13:43 am Message-ID: > As an aside, if I've got 110v equipment and 240v mains, would a yellow > transformer be suitable for running it? I'd assume that most kit will > be happy enough with a centre-tapped supply but I don't know if I want > to risk it... AFAIK no equipment, either US or European can assume that one side of the mains is grounds (and safe to touch). Therefore a centre-tapped (to ground) supply should be fine. One of my Tektronix instruemnts shows different wiring for centre-tapped-to-ground and one-side-grounded mains (I think only for 230V mains), but this is to reduce noise pickup, not safety, and AFAIK the instrument works if you get this wrong (it just has a little (and I mean little) more noise on the trace). I have a cable here with a 110V BS4343 (yellow) plug on one end and a US mains socket on the other. I use it for running US mains chargers/adapters off a power tool transformer. OK, I only use it for testing (to measure the output voltage/characteristics of the US adapter so I can make a UK mains equivalent, but I've never had any problems running said US adapters off the power tool transformer. [For those who wonder what on earth I am talking about, portable industrial power tools -- electric drills, for example -- in the UK are 110V devices. They're run off a step-down isolating transformer, the secondary of which is centre-tapped with the tap connected to ground. The idea is that if the insulation fails, or you cut through the cable, or, then the maximu voltage you'll get if you touch one bit of metal is 55V (one half of the transformer output, returning to ground through you). This voltage is unlikely to prove fatal.] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 7 18:36:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 00:36:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Help needed in identifying an early IC In-Reply-To: <000001c719b0$cbc21060$176fa8c0@obie> from "Jack Rubin" at Dec 6, 6 09:35:52 pm Message-ID: > > I've come across a few old ICs and haven't been able to find out much > about them - lots of places on the 'net are willing to sell them but I > couldn't find a data sheet - only one clue that they _might_ be dual > op-amps. They are small cans (TO-??) with eight leads protruding from > the bottom, marked SG 1458T with a 1976 date code. Any help identifying > them would be appreciated. Kind of hoping they're really some sort of > shift register ... Alas I think they're just plain 1458 dual op-amps. A very common device (probably more common in an 8 pin DIP). -tony From lee at geekdot.com Thu Dec 7 19:10:26 2006 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 02:10:26 +0100 (CET) Subject: What would it take... Message-ID: <4655.86.144.143.49.1165540226.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > The downside, of course, is that as the hobbyist-end-user, you are > somewhat out in the cold if you don't own a GAL programmer. They can > easily run to hundreds of dollars for basic ones, and, unlike an old > 4K EPROM, they are not trivial to make programmers for from scratch. There are no excuses .. http://www.geocities.com/mwinterhoff/galblast.htm Lee. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 7 19:13:59 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:13:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <847842.70867.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> that's all relevant of course, if it's a big production house, producing thousand or millions of boards. But the outifits that make these retro-fits (LOL LOL no pun intended) are done in a garage more then likely. So that being said, just use individual ic's. Or perhaps it's alot about protecting their investment. But I would also have to say a considerable amount of development time goes into designing something that way. Why doesn't someone just draw up PLANS to build this stuff, and sell that? I'd buy it for sure (well, if it was for something groovy I owned...). --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/8/06, Chris M wrote: > > --- Lee Davison wrote: > > > Two 8 bit buffers, two 8 bit latches and one > GAL20V8 > > > or similar. > > > The GAL isn't essential but saves four or more > > > packages to do the address decoding. > > Note the "or more" here... it's not hard to imagine > reasonable > situations where one GAL saves 6 or 8 popcorn TTL > parts, especially > where you start using latched outputs. > > > So 10 discrete ic's. Why all the fuss then? And > why > > bother with the GAL at all if it only saves 4 > chips? > > I really have to wonder why these developers go > to > > all the trouble they do if that's all it takes (I > > would have guessed at least 20). > > There are two major reasons why a hardware developer > would use a GAL... > > 1) board space/interconnections are "expensive" > > When one is hand-wiring a project, replacing 4 16-20 > pin parts with a > single 18 or 20 pin part, that's a significant > savings of effort. > Equally if one is trying to fit in a small space, 4 > DIPs is a huge > amount of room these days (and there are PLCC GALs, > allowing a lot of > DIP circuity to fit in one cm^2). > > 2) GALs are easy to change > > Practically speaking, folks don't want to rewire a > board to change an > address setting, so you end up with address > comparators, jumpers, etc. > With a GAL, for infrequent changes (once or twice > over the life of > the product, not once or twice per year), you can > arrange the logic so > that there are no jumpers, but the GAL still does > internal address > compares, etc. The Spare Time Gizmos Elf2000 does > this - if you don't > like what devices are selected by which combination > of N-lines, etc., > take the (provided) GAL source, change it, recompile > it with WinCUPL, > then burn a GAL to your liking. They are re-usable, > so you don't even > have to buy a spare unless you'd like to do a quick > swap back. > > The downside, of course, is that as the > hobbyist-end-user, you are > somewhat out in the cold if you don't own a GAL > programmer. They can > easily run to hundreds of dollars for basic ones, > and, unlike an old > 4K EPROM, they are not trivial to make programmers > for from scratch. > > I have an older GAL programmer, so I don't mind > GAL-based designs. > The only thing that's eluded me lately is > programming "C rev" Lattice > GAL22V10s. I've had no problems with burning older > Lattice GALs or > other sizes of new Lattice GALs, so it's been an > inconvenience, but > not a show stopper. OTOH, I'm willing to look > around for a newer > programmer and consider an upgrade. I'm not going > to give up GALs > entirely, so I'll find some solution when the need > arises. Others > (those not already posessing GAL programmers) might > find the jump to > be too expensive to justify. > > > -ethan > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 19:16:57 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 14:16:57 +1300 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <4655.86.144.143.49.1165540226.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> References: <4655.86.144.143.49.1165540226.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: On 12/8/06, Lee Davison wrote: > > The downside, of course, is that as the hobbyist-end-user, you are > > somewhat out in the cold if you don't own a GAL programmer. They can > > easily run to hundreds of dollars for basic ones, and, unlike an old > > 4K EPROM, they are not trivial to make programmers for from scratch. > > There are no excuses .. http://www.geocities.com/mwinterhoff/galblast.htm Very nice. I may have to look into that as a replacement for my ancient UP600a. I'd personally look into taking the path of an external bench +24VDC supply, but I can see how it'd be handy to have it all self-contained. Has anyone on the list built that one? -ethan From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Dec 7 19:20:20 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:20:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <847842.70867.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <847842.70867.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Chris M wrote: > Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:13:59 -0800 (PST) > From: Chris M > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: What would it take... > > that's all relevant of course, if it's a big > production house, producing thousand or millions of > boards. But the outifits that make these retro-fits > (LOL LOL no pun intended) are done in a garage more > then likely. So that being said, just use individual > ic's. Or perhaps it's alot about protecting their > investment. But I would also have to say a > considerable amount of development time goes into > designing something that way. > Why doesn't someone just draw up PLANS to build this > stuff, and sell that? I'd buy it for sure (well, if it > was for something groovy I owned...). Well even if you only make 50, a GAL may save a lot of after the fact PCB editing with an X-acto knife... Also a CPLD (maybe a 9536XL) is about as cheap as a GAL now ($1.00 or so), much more capable, and programmable with nothing but a parallel port (JEDEC ISP) > > --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On 12/8/06, Chris M wrote: >>> --- Lee Davison wrote: >>>> Two 8 bit buffers, two 8 bit latches and one >> GAL20V8 >>>> or similar. >>>> The GAL isn't essential but saves four or more >>>> packages to do the address decoding. >> >> Note the "or more" here... it's not hard to imagine >> reasonable >> situations where one GAL saves 6 or 8 popcorn TTL >> parts, especially >> where you start using latched outputs. >> >>> So 10 discrete ic's. Why all the fuss then? And >> why >>> bother with the GAL at all if it only saves 4 >> chips? >>> I really have to wonder why these developers go >> to >>> all the trouble they do if that's all it takes (I >>> would have guessed at least 20). >> >> There are two major reasons why a hardware developer >> would use a GAL... >> >> 1) board space/interconnections are "expensive" >> >> When one is hand-wiring a project, replacing 4 16-20 >> pin parts with a >> single 18 or 20 pin part, that's a significant >> savings of effort. >> Equally if one is trying to fit in a small space, 4 >> DIPs is a huge >> amount of room these days (and there are PLCC GALs, >> allowing a lot of >> DIP circuity to fit in one cm^2). >> >> 2) GALs are easy to change >> >> Practically speaking, folks don't want to rewire a >> board to change an >> address setting, so you end up with address >> comparators, jumpers, etc. >> With a GAL, for infrequent changes (once or twice >> over the life of >> the product, not once or twice per year), you can >> arrange the logic so >> that there are no jumpers, but the GAL still does >> internal address >> compares, etc. The Spare Time Gizmos Elf2000 does >> this - if you don't >> like what devices are selected by which combination >> of N-lines, etc., >> take the (provided) GAL source, change it, recompile >> it with WinCUPL, >> then burn a GAL to your liking. They are re-usable, >> so you don't even >> have to buy a spare unless you'd like to do a quick >> swap back. >> >> The downside, of course, is that as the >> hobbyist-end-user, you are >> somewhat out in the cold if you don't own a GAL >> programmer. They can >> easily run to hundreds of dollars for basic ones, >> and, unlike an old >> 4K EPROM, they are not trivial to make programmers >> for from scratch. >> >> I have an older GAL programmer, so I don't mind >> GAL-based designs. >> The only thing that's eluded me lately is >> programming "C rev" Lattice >> GAL22V10s. I've had no problems with burning older >> Lattice GALs or >> other sizes of new Lattice GALs, so it's been an >> inconvenience, but >> not a show stopper. OTOH, I'm willing to look >> around for a newer >> programmer and consider an upgrade. I'm not going >> to give up GALs >> entirely, so I'll find some solution when the need >> arises. Others >> (those not already posessing GAL programmers) might >> find the jump to >> be too expensive to justify. >> >> >> -ethan >> > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! Music Unlimited > Access over 1 million songs. > http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 7 19:24:10 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:24:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20061208012410.50086.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Chris M wrote: > > > Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 17:13:59 -0800 (PST) > > From: Chris M > > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" > > > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts" > > Subject: Re: What would it take... > > > > that's all relevant of course, if it's a big > > production house, producing thousand or millions > of > > boards. But the outifits that make these > retro-fits > > (LOL LOL no pun intended) are done in a garage > more > > then likely. So that being said, just use > individual > > ic's. Or perhaps it's alot about protecting their > > investment. But I would also have to say a > > considerable amount of development time goes into > > designing something that way. > > Why doesn't someone just draw up PLANS to build > this > > stuff, and sell that? I'd buy it for sure (well, > if it > > was for something groovy I owned...). > > Well even if you only make 50, a GAL may save a lot > of after the fact PCB > editing with an X-acto knife... Yeah but X-actos are cheap. And I got them already. A GAL programmer is going to take some doing. I hope that homebrewed one doesn't require a GAL, cuz then I'm out in the cold. > Also a CPLD (maybe a 9536XL) is about as cheap as a > GAL now ($1.00 or so), > much more capable, and programmable with nothing but > a parallel port (JEDEC > ISP) Well not just the parallel port I'm sure. Hope someone posts the url that has plans for that... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 7 19:39:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:39:50 -0800 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: References: <4576A5E7.60607@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Dec 6, 6 11:13:43 am, Message-ID: <457851E6.22424.343494F9@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 0:32, Tony Duell wrote: > AFAIK no equipment, either US or European can assume that one side of the > mains is grounds (and safe to touch). I own a Toshiba microwave oven (with 3-prong grounding plug) that will not power up if the mains socket is wired up with the feed reversed. Drove me crazy the first time I tried to use it until I discovered that the idiot who wired the kitchen receptacles swapped black and white at one socket in the string. The same refusal to work may be true of some ground-fault interrupter receptacles (i.e., they always stay "tripped" if wired backwards). The local Cheap Chinese tool place regularly has a special on receptacle testers that make sure that the wide blade in the receptacle is at ground potential. > [For those who wonder what on earth I am talking about, portable > industrial power tools -- electric drills, for example -- in the UK are > 110V devices. At what level does this not hold true? For example, I've got a nice big router (portable) that draws a full 15 amps at 120v at startup. That would be a pretty large transformer. Nowadays, however, most portable tools are simply constructed as "double insulated". Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 7 19:42:50 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 17:42:50 -0800 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: References: <847842.70867.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <4578529A.29670.343750B1@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Dec 2006 at 17:20, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Also a CPLD (maybe a 9536XL) is about as cheap as a GAL now ($1.00 or so), > much more capable, and programmable with nothing but a parallel port (JEDEC > ISP) On a completely tangential subject, does any one know of some freely downloadable software for working with Altera 7000S CPLDs? I've got a few of them that I'd like to use, but they're not worth paying the license fee for the Altera software. Cheers, Chuck From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Dec 7 20:10:26 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:10:26 -0800 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: <457743C7.8030407@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20061208021026.GA7307@motherbrain.retronet.net> On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 07:20:05PM +0000, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 6/12/06 22:27, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: > > >> Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up > >> the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I > >> wrote in the 1980's...... > > > > What actually fails in them? > > Head actuator I think; it powers up and spins up, doesn't sound headcrashed > but I can't hear or feel the heads move..... Definitely check for stiction, it's a very common problem on RD53s. If the data on them is worth saving, you can probably make a clean enough environment in your home or office to open up the drive assembly and nudge the head loose from the sticky rubber that it's parked against. You can probably get at least one good read out of it without it crashing (I know folks who've opened up their RD53s, reassembled them, and run them successfully for months afterward. YMMV!) -Seth From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Dec 7 20:17:40 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:17:40 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <06120718282900.21876@bell> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> <06120718282900.21876@bell> Message-ID: <4578CB44.6060106@brutman.com> A good alternative that I haven't seen mentioned is NCSA Telnet. NCSA Telnet not only is a very good telnet client, but it also has a built in FTP server. It will work with a packet driver, and there is also a version that has support for popular network cards built-in directly so that a packet driver is not necessary. The performance of FTP transfers is very good. NCSA doesn't give you a stack that you can use for your own apps. Source code is available. On a slightly related note, I've been working on my own TCP/IP for small IBM PC class machines for about a year. It's in C using Borland Turbo C++ 3.0 for DOS. It supports ARP, UDP and TCP at the moment - no ICMP yet. Performance compared to other stacks is *very* good: Test machine: IBM PC XT with original 10MB hard disk, 3Com 3C503 NIC File send rate: 26.5KB/sec File receive rate: 24.6KB/sec Memory footprint varies .. it depends on how much buffering you want in your app and at the packet level. Code is about 50KB with all of the debug options and messages compiled in. Mike From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Dec 7 20:14:32 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 18:14:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <20061208012410.50086.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061208012410.50086.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > >> Also a CPLD (maybe a 9536XL) is about as cheap as a >> GAL now ($1.00 or so), >> much more capable, and programmable with nothing but >> a parallel port (JEDEC >> ISP) > > Well not just the parallel port I'm sure. Hope > someone posts the url that has plans for that... > Well yes, pretty much just a parallel port: TDI to DUT TDO from DUT TCLK to DUT TMS to DUR 4 signals, all TTL level, no special timing... > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Cheap talk? > Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. > http://voice.yahoo.com > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From wizard at voyager.net Thu Dec 7 20:24:06 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 21:24:06 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <1165393064.20358.121.camel@linux.site> <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> <4576CE10.2040706@yahoo.co.uk> <136201c719df$0d048570$f0fea8c0@alpha> <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1165544646.32029.249.camel@linux.site> On Thu, 2006-12-07 at 10:11 -0600, Jay West wrote: > I would think the best interface to a host is serial (from a common > denominator standpoint), and then provide different software on each host to > make it appear as a drive of the chosen type. Yes... with storage of USB stick or CF card, or whatever. (Those were my two choices.) I have found the discussion of the possibilities and approaches to be most intriguing. To tell the truth, I had not thought at all about recording the flux from diskettes... Anyway, diskettes are going the way of the dodo. I have several older machines, and spent a good part of the last two days trying, unsuccessfully, to find 5-1/4 inch diskettes for sale. They simply are not carried any more. And, I live in the heart of a truly major retail center -- I've been in EVERY major computer and electronics store, and many of the minor ones in the last 48 hours. That adds a certain urgency to the project. Diskettes have a limited lifespan, and, without replacement media, it is not possible to format new disks and move information off aging media to preserve it. > In other words, let the same device that can act as an RL02 on an DEC 11/20 > also act as a 7900A on an HP 2100. I'd sure be willing to attempt finding > time to write the HP specific end :) Yeah, THAT was the idea... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Dec 7 16:12:37 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 22:12:37 +0000 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <45787011.1050302@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 7/12/06 19:48, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: > And if that doesn't work... > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glRMdVc_6cQ > > That drive has burnt its last coaster. Mmmm squishy. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From wizard at voyager.net Thu Dec 7 21:03:34 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 22:03:34 -0500 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165547014.32029.256.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 00:32 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > [For those who wonder what on earth I am talking about, portable > industrial power tools -- electric drills, for example -- in the UK are > 110V devices. They're run off a step-down isolating transformer, the > secondary of which is centre-tapped with the tap connected to ground. The > idea is that if the insulation fails, or you cut through the cable, or, > then the maximu voltage you'll get if you touch one bit of metal is 55V > (one half of the transformer output, returning to ground through you). > This voltage is unlikely to prove fatal.] Interestingly, that is how U.S. Navy power on-board ships works, too. (Well, as of 25 years ago... *SIGH*) Two out-of-phase 60 volt live sides. U.S. standard house wiring is, however, three wire: Live, Neutral, and Ground at 120 volts, 60 Hz. Some equipment we used on the ship was designed for land-based labs, and case-grounded, which meant that when you plugged them in, you were shorting out half the mains. Yikes. We had isolation transformers for THAT equipment which were ungrounded. Installing new equipment was even more exciting there than most places. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Dec 7 22:24:04 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 23:24:04 -0500 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4578E8E4.3020804@hawkmountain.net> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 6/12/06 22:27, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: > > >>> Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up >>> the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I >>> wrote in the 1980's...... >>> >> What actually fails in them? >> > > Head actuator I think; it powers up and spins up, doesn't sound headcrashed > but I can't hear or feel the heads move..... > > I personally had one fail (1325) that had to do with locating track 0 (which appears to be initially probed for by a full stroke into a rubber bumper). I think the rubber changes or becomes out of adjustment with age... in my case I opened the HDA (felt I had nothing to lose at that point), and tweaked the position by around 1 thousandth of an inch... the drive then came ready every time and worked fine. I've also heard of the spindle motor brake dragging not allowing the drive to get up to full speed rotation... and that can be adjusted w/o opening the HDA... it is on the bottom under the circuit board. -- Curt From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Dec 7 22:41:26 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 23:41:26 -0500 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <06120718282900.21876@bell> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> <06120718282900.21876@bell> Message-ID: <4578ECF6.9010305@hawkmountain.net> joseph c lang wrote: > On Thursday 07 December 2006 12:58, you wrote: > >> Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / >> configuration and FTP client software so that I can connect to a remote FTP >> server from MSDOS? >> >> I don't think I've ever set up such a config from scratch. I can live with >> 10Mbps speeds if required (would DOS drivers even drive a card at anything >> more anyway?) >> >> NIC cards I seem to have available: >> >> Netgear FA310TX (PCI) >> HP 88809L (ISA) >> 3Com Etherlink III (PCI) >> 3Com Etherlink III (ISA) >> Asix NV100AM (PCI) >> 'Network Everywhere' NC100 (PCI) >> 3Com 3C905 (PCI) >> >> The ISA boards perhaps have the drawback that they're software >> configurable, so I have no idea what settings they'll want to use (or which >> interface), or how well they'll behave in the new-ish system I need to put >> a card in. The PCI boards on the other hand are newer so maybe DOS drivers >> don't even exist for them... >> >> (Etherlink III's were always reliable I seem to recall, but I never did >> like the idea of them being software configurable; it was much nicer to >> have jumpers on a card and *know* what it was configured as!) >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> > > Here's what I use..... > > Trumpet ABI (not winsock that's different) TCP/IP stack > It includes FTP client, telnet and more... > D-link ne-2000 clone ISA card and packet driver > Tsoft NFS > dos 7.0 (aka windows 95 kernel) > Another option... though not 'free' (from vendor) is Sun's PC NFS. It works pretty nicely... provided you can find a copy. I'm running either version 4 or 5 on a 386SX for my ISA based EPROM programmer. I am using a hard drive however. Not sure you could condense PCNFS to one boot floppy... but I haven't looked at it in so long, you might be able to. > I use this combination because: > it produced the smallest memory foot print (577K free) > it will fit on (and boot from) a single floppy > it has a documented interface, so I can write code > (I had to write my own LPR). > > The stacks I looked at were: > microsoft - serious memory hog > novell - won't fit on a floppy and you can't remove the boot disk > wattcp - this worked pretty well, but it wasn't a TSR so no ping response > without an application running. > > I have the need to keep a DOS box running to support my prom/gal programmer > and a couple of DOS CAD programs. I don't ever intend to buy the same > program more than once.... > > I boot from a 1.4M floppy and NFS mount the "C:" drive. > > BTW I've also used an INTEL EE/PRO 100 (PCI) with the same setup (different > packet driver) and It works just fine. DOS runs pretty good on an 800Mhz. > x86. > > joe lang > > -- Curt From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Dec 7 22:57:10 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 23:57:10 -0500 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <20061208021026.GA7307@motherbrain.retronet.net> References: <457743C7.8030407@gjcp.net> <20061208021026.GA7307@motherbrain.retronet.net> Message-ID: <4578F0A6.1060300@hawkmountain.net> Seth J. Morabito wrote: > On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 07:20:05PM +0000, Adrian Graham wrote: > >> On 6/12/06 22:27, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: >> >> >>>> Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up >>>> the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I >>>> wrote in the 1980's...... >>>> >>> What actually fails in them? >>> >> Head actuator I think; it powers up and spins up, doesn't sound headcrashed >> but I can't hear or feel the heads move..... >> > > Definitely check for stiction, it's a very common problem on RD53s. If > the data on them is worth saving, you can probably make a clean enough > environment in your home or office to open up the drive assembly and > nudge the head loose from the sticky rubber that it's parked against. > You can probably get at least one good read out of it without it > crashing (I know folks who've opened up their RD53s, reassembled them, > and run them successfully for months afterward. YMMV!) > Stiction, as I've eperienced it (Quantum 100Meg drives as used in Suns), keeps the drive motor from spinning up the disk (because the heads are stuck to the disk). His drive spins up... he just doesn't hear the heads move... which would lead me to believe: 1. The problem I've seen with the rubber bumper out of adjustment 2. rubber bumper has gone sticky... and the heads can't move off of it (in which case it could be cured like head/platter stiction) 3. failure of PCB to operate head actuator voice coil... this would require a replacement drive PCB. -- Curt > -Seth > From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Dec 7 23:00:28 2006 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 00:00:28 -0500 Subject: PDP11 adventures In-Reply-To: <20061208021026.GA7307@motherbrain.retronet.net> References: <457743C7.8030407@gjcp.net> <20061208021026.GA7307@motherbrain.retronet.net> Message-ID: <4578F16C.5090105@hawkmountain.net> Seth J. Morabito wrote: > On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 07:20:05PM +0000, Adrian Graham wrote: > >> On 6/12/06 22:27, "Gordon JC Pearce" wrote: >> >> >>>> Indeed, it looks like the original boot drive (also an RD53) long gave up >>>> the ghost, which is a shame because it had RT11 5.4 and one of the systems I >>>> wrote in the 1980's...... >>>> >>> What actually fails in them? >>> >> Head actuator I think; it powers up and spins up, doesn't sound headcrashed >> but I can't hear or feel the heads move..... >> > > Definitely check for stiction, it's a very common problem on RD53s. If > the data on them is worth saving, you can probably make a clean enough > environment in your home or office to open up the drive assembly and > nudge the head loose from the sticky rubber that it's parked against. > You can probably get at least one good read out of it without it > crashing (I know folks who've opened up their RD53s, reassembled them, > and run them successfully for months afterward. YMMV!) > > gah... I should have read beyond 'check for stiction'... the sticktion you describe is what I laid out in option 2... oops... its late... shouldn't be reading e-mail... so I didn't read beyond the the first line before commenting... doh ! The one drive I fixed it wasn't sticking to it (physically)... but the drive was holding the heads against it hard electrically (felt stuck with drive on). I think it holds hard against this looking for track 0... then fine ajusts for track 0 center.... if that bumper changes geometry with age, or gets moved over time... then it can't get a read on track 0.... hence why adjusting it by a thousandth if an inch in my case got the drive working nicely.... -- Curt -- Curt > -Seth > From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 00:59:47 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 01:59:47 -0500 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <4578A997.1090909@feedle.net> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> <457862FF.7000605@feedle.net> <45788C7C.5090405@yahoo.co.uk> <4578A997.1090909@feedle.net> Message-ID: <45790D63.1060802@gmail.com> C. Sullivan wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> C. Sullivan wrote: >>> Jules Richardson wrote: >>>> >>>> Out of interest, what do I need in the way of TCP/IP software / >>>> configuration and FTP client software so that I can connect to a >>>> remote FTP server from MSDOS? >>> >>> All you need to know: >>> http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Park/2884/dosint.htm >> >> So, I need a packet driver and a network stack, right? I've found the >> Etherlink III DOS config utility, so that's probably the card to go >> for as drivers seem readily available. > > If I remember properly, you should be able to find a 'packet driver' on > the crynwr site for your card. That, plus a packet-driver compatible > program, and you're good to go. I seem to remember that some of the DOS TCP/IP stacks worked fine with an NDIS driver designed for use with Netware for DOS, but I might be remembering incorrectly. Peace... Sridhar From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Dec 8 01:04:16 2006 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 23:04:16 -0800 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: (legalize@xmission.com's message of "Mon\, 04 Dec 2006 14\:23\:09 -0700") References: Message-ID: <200612080704.kB874Gpc095134@lots.reanimators.org> Richard wrote: > I was wondering if things like copies of Datamation or other now > defunct periodicals might show up in that sort of sale. Today's fresh arrivals at a Friends of the Library organization to the north of Sillycon Valley include: - some Dr. Dobb's Journal from 1994 and 1996 - MSDN Magazine, Nov 2001 ("Windows XP is here") - Teradata review, Summer 1999 - Software Development, covering the end of 1997 to the beginning of 2002 with gaps - Java Developer's Journal, a couple from 1999 and one from 2001 - WebSphere Advisor, June 2003 - Bea WebLogic Developer's Journal, four or five across 2001-2004 - JavaPro, some from 2000, some from 2001, one from 2004 - PCPhoto, Oct 2000 - Silicon Valley TechWeek, a couple from May 2000 - Paradox Informant, May 1995 (three copies though) Blah. I'm sending the lot to the bargain room ($0.10/ea I think). This is perhaps unfortunately typical. I did look through the whole box, just in case there was an Altair issue of Poptronics, or some old 1960s Datamation, but no. (It wasn't likely.) If you want to get some idea of what's going to be on the main sale room shelves for Saturday's sale, look at . Those pictures were taken on Sunday. I've put some more stuff out since then. -Frank McConnell (yeah, I'm the guy who does the computer section, and I'm there now) From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Dec 7 16:45:40 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 22:45:40 +0000 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <909998.96719.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <909998.96719.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45789994.8080709@gjcp.net> Chris M wrote: > to make one of these in discrete logic: > > (if you don't feel like looking, it's an Apple II > IDE/Cflash controller) > > http://cgi.ebay.com/MicroDrive-IDE-Controller-for-Apple-IIe-IIgs_W0QQitemZ300055639046QQihZ020QQcategoryZ80286QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > Just a rough chip count. Assuming normal discrete logic? About three. Gordon. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Dec 7 19:28:22 2006 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 01:28:22 +0000 Subject: [rescue] Need any "old" tape media? In-Reply-To: <200612071622.22234.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200612071622.22234.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 7 Dec 2006, at 21:22, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I've got a stack of 8mm (doesn't mention a size, a mix of Verbatim > data > tapes, and Sony and Fuji video tapes), 4mm DDS1 (both 60M and 90M), > and > DLT3 tapes at work which we're getting set to throw away... the DDS/ > 8mm > tapes have some data on them, and will be degaussed... the DLT3's are > unused, from several years ago. I've also got about 50 QIC and 60 DDS tapes in the UK that I want shot of. I'd prefer to get a few beer tokens for them, but if the best offer is to haul them away, I'll probably take it... From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Dec 8 02:37:15 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 05:37:15 -0300 Subject: What would it take... References: <909998.96719.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <176b01c71aa4$1e449bc0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > to make one of these in discrete logic: > (if you don't feel like looking, it's an Apple II > IDE/Cflash controller) > http://cgi.ebay.com/MicroDrive-IDE-Controller-for-Apple-IIe-IIgs_W0QQitemZ300055639046QQihZ020QQcategoryZ80286QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem This is not discrete logic, there is at least one GAL there I can see in the photo! :oP From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Dec 8 02:40:44 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 05:40:44 -0300 Subject: What would it take... References: <847842.70867.qm@web61019.mail.yahoo.com>, <4578529A.29670.343750B1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <17b901c71aa4$b20f3bd0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > On a completely tangential subject, does any one know of some freely > downloadable software for working with Altera 7000S CPLDs? I've got > a few of them that I'd like to use, but they're not worth paying the > license fee for the Altera software. The altera software is free, only the foundation (more advanced but you can live without that) is paid From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Dec 8 02:37:48 2006 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 00:37:48 -0800 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <45790D63.1060802@gmail.com> (Sridhar Ayengar's message of "Fri\, 08 Dec 2006 01\:59\:47 -0500") References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> <457862FF.7000605@feedle.net> <45788C7C.5090405@yahoo.co.uk> <4578A997.1090909@feedle.net> <45790D63.1060802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200612080837.kB88bmwf096804@lots.reanimators.org> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I seem to remember that some of the DOS TCP/IP stacks worked fine with > an NDIS driver designed for use with Netware for DOS, but I might be > remembering incorrectly. Something like that, yes. NDIS was MICROS~1's, ODI was Novell's. The first "DOS TCP/IP stacks" were monolithic applications that did everything from terminal emulation and TFTP service to talk to the 3Com 3C50[01]. That was MIT PC/IP. PC/IP got turned into a product at The Wollongong Group: WIN/PC. Some of the folks from MIT saw the ad, recognized PC/IP in it, and said "hey, we could do that!" They got a deal on some green binders and FTP Software was born, or maybe it was the other way around. (Disclaimer: I worked for TWG, but not 'til 1989.) As the variety of PC Ethernet adapters grew, the stacks got decoupled from the applications and the card drivers, and then you found yourself loading a card driver TSR, then the stack TSR, then the configuration, and then you could run network applications. This was still pesky as the stack vendors still typically had to write their own drivers and application vendors had to have different versions of their networked applications to talk to each stack. FTP Software came up with the "packet driver" specification for the interface to their network card drivers. Novell came up with ODI which I think stood for Open Driver Interface. MICROS~1 was pushing LAN Manager about this time (very late 1980s early 1990s) and came up with NDIS. One benefit of these interfaces was that multiple protocol stacks (e.g. Netware and TCP/IP) could share the card. I remember in the early 1990s, TWG had "dedicated" drivers for a variety of Ethernet cards (and one for SLIP), and there was a "shim" driver that provided an interface between the stack and a packet driver. Later there were "shim" drivers for ODI and NDIS too. Before the ODI driver was written, there was a set of steps (long since forgotten) that you had to go through to get Netware to work alongside WIN/TCP for DOS. -Frank McConnell From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Dec 8 02:45:42 2006 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:45:42 +0000 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: References: <4655.86.144.143.49.1165540226.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: <45792636.4030101@philpem.me.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/8/06, Lee Davison wrote: >> There are no excuses .. http://www.geocities.com/mwinterhoff/galblast.htm > > Very nice. I may have to look into that as a replacement for my ancient > UP600a. > > I'd personally look into taking the path of an external bench +24VDC > supply, but I can see how it'd be handy to have it all self-contained. > > Has anyone on the list built that one? Yep: Mine's based on a variant of the design that was slightly cheaper to build. 74HC573 latch, resistor-ladder DAC, opamp, KA34063 (=MC34063) based switching PSU, a pair of 7407 O/C buffers, a 7805, some resistor packs and a few passives. The one thing I am going to do is replace the diode voltage dropper with a proper 3.3V regulator - should be an easy mod (steal GND from the 7805, Vin from the top of the diode chain, Vout to the bottom of the chain). Since taking that photo, I've added a proper DC power jack and a slightly beefier power switching transistor. My 6502 computer (), incidentally, is stuffed full of GALs. One for each board at the moment, two on the IDE/FDD controller (which is being redesigned to use a Xilinx CPLD). -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Dec 7 14:41:33 2006 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 20:41:33 +0000 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Dec 2006 14:48:38 EST." <45787016.2050004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200612072041.UAA18814@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Sridhar Ayengar said: > Stan Barr wrote: > > Now if only there was Lynx for DOS :-) > > There is... you just have to use an older version. Thanks...it never occurred to me to look! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 8 05:51:45 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 05:51:45 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <457951D1.1080809@yahoo.co.uk> Tothwolf wrote: > All of the 3Com cards are software configurable. The utilities and > drivers are even available on 3Com's FTP site :) I know they used to be (as of a few years ago) but I was surprised even then given how long in the tooth they were. I wasn't sure if 3com would have pulled the availability of the utilities by now, but luckily it seems not :) I thought I'd seen an Etherlink III variant that was configured via jumpers rather than software in the past; anyone know if I imagined that? > The 3C905 is the faster of the 3Com cards you have there, as it supports > 100mb. They used to be my preferred 100Mbit card because I knew they were reliable under Linux, to be honest - I've got a few kicking around in various PCs that I've put together over the years. These days Linux supports such a huge range of NICs that it's less of an issue! > The Etherlink XL 3C900, etc also tended to work pretty well, > though they are limited to 10mb. The Etherlink III series 3C509, 3C509B > are also very well, supported, though again limited to 10mb. I'd choose > a 509B over the original 509 if you need to go with an ISA card though, > as it has FIFO support. My firewall's got three 509 boards in it (10Mbit not an issue when the cable modem to the outside world is far slower than that anyway!) but I'm not sure which version they are. Wasn't there a 'C' board, too? > Some of my personal favorite cards were the so-called NE2500 cards (not > NE2000). The chips were made by AMD and their design was a lot more > refined than the original NE2000. They weren't as well supported as the > generic NE2000 though. Ahh, that brings back memories of messing around with supposedly-compatible NE2000 clone boards back in the early 90s in order to run Doom :-) (fuzzy memory says that Doom ran across IPX rather than TCP/IP) cheers Jules From tim.walls at snowgoons.com Fri Dec 8 06:46:46 2006 From: tim.walls at snowgoons.com (Tim Walls) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 12:46:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Machine Independent Storate Idea... Message-ID: Jules Richardson wrote: > Maybe; but it's not vital to operation as the intention would be for the > primary storage to be something like a CF card or a USB stick. Although > that is interesting; the primary store is a USB stick then it's > presumably easy to code the firmware so that the device can be plugged > in via a cable to a system running suitable host software as an > alternative (providing the device holds sufficient local memory to > buffer a track and USB data transfer to the host is > fast enough to not upset whatever the floppy emulator's plugged in to). Unfortunately that's not true :-(. USB is a horrible standard, and it's not orthogonal - hosts are hosts, and targets (my word, I can't remember what the official word is) are targets. So, if your device wants to be able to use USB memory sticks, it needs to implement the USB host interface. That means it won't be able to talk to a computer (also a host interface.) If you want to do both, you'll need two interfaces (and strictly speaking two sockets - the flat socket (Type A IIRC) should only be implemented on a host, a target should only have the square Type B socket. It ought to be impossible to get a flat-4 male to flat-4 male USB cable, apart from anything else.) (By 'Flat 4' I mean the 'normal' USB socket people see on their computers. By 'Square', I mean the square one with two bevelled corners that you don't see as often (an awful lot of USB devices having captive cables.) You can probably find a driver chip that will implement both host and target though, or you may need two driver chips. The Philips PDIUSBD12 (again, IIRC that's the correct name) which is the only one I've ever used will only do target mode, IIRC. Firewire is a much nicer standard for this sort of thing, but of course defeats the object because noone makes Firewire memory sticks :-). Anyway, I'd definitely stick to CompactFlash, but make sure you implement a Type-II (IIRC, again!) interface, the physical size of which is slightly chunkier; that allows you to use the Microdrive harddisks as well as Flash cards. (To sort of answer one of your other questions, I regularly use 4GB CompactFlash hard disks in my digital camera - the only downside of them is they are sloooooooow, at least the cheapo ones I use. It used to be the cheapest way to get a 4GB compact flash hard disk was buy an iPod Mini, crack the thing open and steal the hard disk out of it - they use a CFlash disk internally!) Cheers, Tim -- Tim Walls at home in Leeds EMail & MSN: tim.walls at snowgoons.com From jclang at notms.net Fri Dec 8 08:06:30 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:06:30 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45788B66.30107@yahoo.co.uk> References: <45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> <45788B66.30107@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <06120809063000.22304@bell> On Thursday 07 December 2006 16:45, you wrote: > C. Sullivan wrote: > >> 8" is left as a bit more of an engineering exercise for the reader :-) > > > > For my money, 8" compatibility would be VERY nice > > Oh, absolutely. I merely meant that building a suitable mounting bracket > would be done on a per-case basis (were there ever companies officially > selling 5.25" to 8" drive brackets? I've never come across such a thing) > > > It is my understanding that there isn't much difference between > > 5 1/4" and 8" electrically, so it might be a moot point. > > Certainly it seems that driving a 8" drive using an 5.25" disk controller > isn't too difficult in a lot of cases. I don't know if the reverse is true > though, i.e. how easy it is to make the interface found on a typical 5.25" > drive work with a system that's expecting 8" disks. I have a pair of teac fd55gfr (5.25 DSDD) drives running on a Monolithic systems Z80 multibus board. I built a small board to handle the connector difference. I used an AVR to generate the missing motor on signal. It looks at the drive select signals and asserts motor on if any drive is selected. It deasserts motor on after 15 seconds of no drive selected. So i guess the short answer is it's not hard. I did it. None of this is an issue for a storage dongle... It doesn't have a motor ;-) > > >> To be honest, I'd like it if the device did have a direct-link > >> capability to the outside world (whether it be RS232, USB, Ethernet, > >> parallel, SCSI, or whatever). But I'm not *that* bothered if it > >> doesn't; it's not that difficult to sneakernet a CF card back and > >> forth between the device and a modern system (except that I blew my > >> card reader up a couple of months back :) > > > > My view was that the "1.0" version would have USB or similar. > > Maybe; but it's not vital to operation as the intention would be for the > primary storage to be something like a CF card or a USB stick. Although > that is interesting; the primary store is a USB stick then it's presumably > easy to code the firmware so that the device can be plugged in via a cable > to a system running suitable host software as an alternative (providing the > device holds sufficient local memory to buffer a track and USB data > transfer to the host is fast enough to not upset whatever the floppy > emulator's plugged in to). > > Of course I suspect that most of us on here (and in the context of vintage > hardware in general) are more comfortable with something like RS232... > > Personally if I were building it I'd put an expansion bus connector on the > board and forget about any kind of host interface for the the initial > release; people can add daughtercards (and updated firmware) for their > favourite comms interface at a later date... > > >>... > > > > Understood. My intention was to make it work well as a drop-in drive > > replacement, and add the other stuff as 'enhanced' features for a 2.0 > > (or later) device. > > Complete agreement. Keep it simple for an initial release; just keep it in > mind what direction it *might* take in future, I suppose. Key for an > initial release would be getting it to act like a floppy drive *reliably* > and working with some form of local storage (personally I like CF, but then > I do tend to be a bit anti-USB :-) > > >> If I knew anything about PIC design* I'd get to doing some messing > >> around with it right now... :-) > > > > A fast PIC could do it. I was leaning more towards something a little > > more sophisticated (not that a PIC can't be), if for no other reason to > > support the creeping features I pointed out above. Also, the floppy > > timings on GCR formats can get a bit weird. FM/MFM should be fairly > > easy. > > That's interesting; personally I hadn't thought about GCR at all really. > The sort of thing I have stuck in my head right now has three small boards > to it: > > 1) A 'core' board containing CPU, a bit of addressing logic, some local > memory (whether a whole track buffer or not I don't know), LCD / switch > logic, ROM, and a header for future expansion. > 2) A 'local storage interface' board, such as one holding a Compact > Flash connector and any control logic (I'd hope that most work could be > done in software) > 3) An 'emulation' board containing the floppy side of things - > connector, buffers, and simple control logic (again I'd hope software could > do the necessary line twiddling. > > The interface between the boards would just be an expansion bus; > essentially just CPU lines and a bit of selection logic. The key is that > such an approach allows someone to make the floppy-side 'emulation' board > totally different in future (along with a firmware change) to support some > completely different floppy electrical specification, or even make it look > to a vintage machine like some totally different low-speed data device. > > Similarly, the 'local storage' side of things could be swapped for > something else; but the core elements of the device would be that it does > have some form of local storage (even if a remote host is connected via > some other comms interface), some form of interface board to a vintage > system, and that the 'core' board stays the same (with the exception of > firmware changes). > > But, I'm not a hardware designer, so all of that is probably wrong. :-) > > > Hard-sector formats might even be easier, or harder. Again, I > > don't know enough about the signals to really know. > > I suspect it's easy enough (but I don't know for sure). It can't be *that* > complex, but whether it needs a change in hardware, I don't know. But see > above - worst-case it's just a different emulation board. > > > I do a lot of microcontroller crap. I'm in the middle of a move right > > now (from Portland, OR to Billings, MT), so I don't have a way of > > testing any theories right now.. but would definately be interested in > > pursuing this as a project early in the new year once I'm settled here. > > Anybody interested in starting up a mailing list specifically to start > > napkin-drawing this thing? I have a listserv... > > I just said that in a private email to Chuck a few hours ago, too :) I'm > all for it - personally what I wouldn't want to see happening is people > wanting millions of features from day one, though (that's what kills a lot > of theoretical discussions on here! :) > > But a simple device that looks like an SA400/SA800 type floppy drive and > uses some form of 'portable' local storage, and has some reasonable > expansion options / future-proofing - yeah, I think that's probably > doable. It's not exactly Warren's dream of a 'portable to every system' > type device, but it's a still a darn useful thing to have and I suspect > would solve a lot of problems for a lot of people (particularly > longer-term). > > Plus it should be reasonably trivial to provide 'floppy to simulator' > copying in the future without a physical vintage machine, which means that > for not much effort we get the ability to archive possibly-damaged disks > from vintage systems onto modern media. (I think Chuck was seeing that as a > feature of the simulator, whereas I was seeing it more as a simple box of > tricks which sat between the simulator and a physical drive to handle the > necessary signalling) > > cheers > > Jules > (all 'theorised out' today! :) From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Dec 8 02:29:53 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:29:53 +0000 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <457851E6.22424.343494F9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4576A5E7.60607@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Dec 6, 6 11:13:43 am, <457851E6.22424.343494F9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <45792281.10604@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > At what level does this not hold true? For example, I've got a nice > big router (portable) that draws a full 15 amps at 120v at startup. > That would be a pretty large transformer. At no point, for industrial tools. > Nowadays, however, most portable tools are simply constructed as > "double insulated". Yes, but you're not allowed to use those on building sites etc. in the UK. You need to have 110v tools. The biggest transformers I've seen are about 15kVA and come on a small trolley. They're about a couple of feet on each side. They may in fact be three-phase, but I didn't want to piss off the 20-or-so workmen who had stuff plugged into the two that were on site by disconnecting it for a look at the plug. Gordon From root at parse.com Fri Dec 8 08:17:08 2006 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:17:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: F/S PDP-11/34 CAD$100 Local pickup only Kanata/ON/Canada Message-ID: <200612081417.kB8EH8ci082567@amd64.ott.parse.com> Hi folks, I've decided that my PDP-11/34 is not part of my core collection, and that I really won't have time to do anything intelligent with it. Therefore, I'm selling it for CAD$100, local pickup in Kanata/ON/Canada only (will not ship). Pictures, module inventory, and contact info: www.parse.com/~museum/pdp11/pdp1134/index.html The pictured cabinet is available separately (CAD$100, same terms). (The Gandalf X.25 mux shown in the cabinet has been scrapped already.) Cheers, -RK -- Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices, http://www.parse.com/resume.html Wanted: DEC minis: http://www.parse.com/~museum/admin/wanted.html From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Dec 8 09:02:46 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 15:02:46 +0000 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <45792281.10604@gjcp.net> References: <4576A5E7.60607@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Dec 6, 6 11:13:43 am, <457851E6.22424.343494F9@cclist.sydex.com> <45792281.10604@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <45797E96.7060804@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/12/2006 08:29, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> At what level does this not hold true? For example, I've got a nice >> big router (portable) that draws a full 15 amps at 120v at startup. >> Nowadays, however, most portable tools are simply constructed as >> "double insulated". > > Yes, but you're not allowed to use those on building sites etc. in the > UK. You need to have 110v tools. I'm sure there's nothing to stop you using double-insulated tools if they're 110V (and Chuck's router should work at 110V). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 8 09:16:00 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 09:16:00 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <45788C7C.5090405@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4578563D.90801@yahoo.co.uk> <457862FF.7000605@feedle.net> <45788C7C.5090405@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <457981B0.9090909@yahoo.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Does anyone know if the Trumpet stack (hmm, is it even free?) is > mirrored for download anywhere? The main Trumpet website is inaccessible > (at least from here - I get 'forbidden' errors, but it may be that my > ISPs web proxies have screwed up yet again) huzzah - it seems that their FTP site is still up and running, even if their website is still broken (thanks go to google's cache feature for letting me find out that they do have an FTP site :) Plus, it All Just Worked (tm)... I stuck an Etherlink III board in the box and the packet driver under DOS found it without having to mess around with parameters, then the Trumpet code (ntcpdrv) found the packet driver without trouble. I passed in IP params on the command line, and it all seems happy; I can ping other machines on the LAN and other machines on the LAN can ping the DOS machine. FTP seems to work pretty well too (although I haven't tried a speed test yet) My ultimate aim for this box is to integrate some FTP client code and serial console control with ImageDisk, so that I can have a 'headless' disk imaging system on the LAN - but for the moment just not having to sneakernet disk images around will be a big plus... cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 8 09:32:09 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 10:32:09 -0500 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! In-Reply-To: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> References: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <25134785-6D1B-4E60-9A0F-08E161F75A23@neurotica.com> On Dec 8, 2006, at 3:59 AM, Andrew Wiskow wrote: > Cottonwood BBS is back online and operational! > > After much trial and error, I've got all the right > pieces put together... So dust off your old modem, > and give Cottonwood BBS a call. It's presently the > only known Commodore dial-up BBS in existence! > > I apologize to anyone who tried to call before... The > VoIP line I tried to use didn't work out... So I'm > back with a new number, a regular phone line, and NO > line noise! > > Call now at +1 (951)242-3593 > > For detailed information on the BBS, and tips on > connecting, check out the Cottonwood BBS informational > website: > http://www.wiskow.hpg.ig.com.br/index.htm Are you serious, a real-live old-school BBS? That is fantastic! I've often fantasized about putting one back up (I ran a very small RCPM machine in New Jersey for a while back in the 1980s while I was in high school) but have never gotten around to it. I'd love to recapture some of that old "BBS feel". The World Wide Web is nice, but there's a certain magic to a BBS that the WWW just hasn't managed to duplicate. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 8 09:38:29 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 07:38:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <457981B0.9090909@yahoo.co.uk> from Jules Richardson at "Dec 8, 6 09:16:00 am" Message-ID: <200612081538.kB8FcT5O016754@floodgap.com> > > Does anyone know if the Trumpet stack (hmm, is it even free?) is > > mirrored for download anywhere? The main Trumpet website is inaccessible > > (at least from here - I get 'forbidden' errors, but it may be that my > > ISPs web proxies have screwed up yet again) > > huzzah - it seems that their FTP site is still up and running, even if their > website is still broken (thanks go to google's cache feature for letting me > find out that they do have an FTP site :) URL and path? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "The Living Daylights" ----------------------------- From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Dec 8 09:39:02 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 10:39:02 -0500 Subject: Need any "old" tape media? In-Reply-To: References: <200612071622.22234.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200612081039.02757.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 07 December 2006 19:11, Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > I've got a stack of 8mm (doesn't mention a size, a mix of Verbatim > > data tapes, and Sony and Fuji video tapes), 4mm DDS1 (both 60M and > > 90M), and DLT3 tapes at work which we're getting set to throw > > away... the DDS/8mm tapes have some data on them, and will be > > degaussed... the DLT3's are unused, from several years ago. > > Won't degaussing DDS tapes wipe the factory written sync stuff and > render the tapes worthless? (That was my experience with some years > ago anyway...) It looks like you're right. I'm glad that no one has requested any DDS media. :) It looks like I probably won't be able to offer it (at least not at that low of a price) if I have to erase it with a drive rather than just throw it on the degausser for a few seconds. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Dec 8 09:39:53 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:39:53 +0100 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165592393.6067.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 00:32 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > As an aside, if I've got 110v equipment and 240v mains, would a yellow > > transformer be suitable for running it? I'd assume that most kit will > > be happy enough with a centre-tapped supply but I don't know if I want > > to risk it... > > AFAIK no equipment, either US or European can assume that one side of the > mains is grounds (and safe to touch). Which is a very good thing because Norway has no neutral wire. :) (Two phases, 220V p-p) -Tore From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 8 09:58:16 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 09:58:16 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <200612081538.kB8FcT5O016754@floodgap.com> References: <200612081538.kB8FcT5O016754@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <45798B98.2050709@yahoo.co.uk> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Does anyone know if the Trumpet stack (hmm, is it even free?) is >>> mirrored for download anywhere? The main Trumpet website is inaccessible >>> (at least from here - I get 'forbidden' errors, but it may be that my >>> ISPs web proxies have screwed up yet again) >> huzzah - it seems that their FTP site is still up and running, even if their >> website is still broken (thanks go to google's cache feature for letting me >> find out that they do have an FTP site :) > > URL and path? ftp.trumpet.com.au - which is quite obvious when you think about it :) I just hadn't tried it, but was poking around google's cache of the www.trumpet.com.au website to see if I could get to a download URL that worked and happened to stumble across the fact that they also run a FTP server. (sign of the times, I suppose. There was a day when I would have automatically tried a couple of obvious FTP server addresses if someone's website wasn't working) ftp.trumpet.com seems to work too - but both www.trumpet.com.au and www.trumpet.com over HTTP give me 403/forbidden errors. cheers Jules From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Dec 8 10:22:45 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 11:22:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <1165592393.6067.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1165592393.6067.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200612081625.LAA17391@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Which is a very good thing because Norway has no neutral wire. :) > (Two phases, 220V p-p) However, in my experience you cannot treat either phase to ground as 110V a la North American practice. Quite aside from there being no neutral wire and thus this meaning carrying current over the ground wire, I've seen the voltages to ground rather grossly unbalanced (like the voltage from one side to ground being about twice the that for the other side - 73 and 147 volts, for an exact 220V). I don't know whether this was just a faulty installation, but it happens. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pechter at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 10:32:00 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 11:32:00 -0500 Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP Message-ID: I've also got a big pile of ISA NICS and PCI 10BaseT/Thinnet for shipping cost. I also have FTP software's PC/TCP DOS TCP software if anyone wants the 3 ring binder full of disks. NE2000 clones (10BaseT and Thinnet) WD8013/8212/8003's Intel EtherExpress cards Realtek 8029 3Com 3c509 3Com 3c905 Bill On 12/7/06, Richard wrote: > > > Speaking of ISA NICs, I have a boatload if anyone needs some for cost > of shipping. ISA and PCI. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From pechter at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 10:58:21 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 11:58:21 -0500 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: <200612080704.kB874Gpc095134@lots.reanimators.org> References: <200612080704.kB874Gpc095134@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: Damn... some good stuff on the bookshelves. The Comer books, the Stevens books. Wish I had those here... Bill On 12/8/06, Frank McConnell wrote: > > Richard wrote: > > I was wondering if things like copies of Datamation or other now > > defunct periodicals might show up in that sort of sale. > > Today's fresh arrivals at a Friends of the Library organization to > the north of Sillycon Valley include: > > - some Dr. Dobb's Journal from 1994 and 1996 > - MSDN Magazine, Nov 2001 ("Windows XP is here") > - Teradata review, Summer 1999 > - Software Development, covering the end of 1997 to the beginning of 2002 > with gaps > - Java Developer's Journal, a couple from 1999 and one from 2001 > - WebSphere Advisor, June 2003 > - Bea WebLogic Developer's Journal, four or five across 2001-2004 > - JavaPro, some from 2000, some from 2001, one from 2004 > - PCPhoto, Oct 2000 > - Silicon Valley TechWeek, a couple from May 2000 > - Paradox Informant, May 1995 (three copies though) > > Blah. I'm sending the lot to the bargain room ($0.10/ea I think). > This is perhaps unfortunately typical. I did look through the whole > box, just in case there was an Altair issue of Poptronics, or some > old 1960s Datamation, but no. (It wasn't likely.) > > If you want to get some idea of what's going to be on the main sale > room shelves for Saturday's sale, look at > . Those > pictures were taken on Sunday. I've put some more stuff out since > then. > > -Frank McConnell (yeah, I'm the guy who does the computer section, > and I'm there now) > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 8 11:04:44 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 09:04:44 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <06120809063000.22304@bell> References: , <45788B66.30107@yahoo.co.uk>, <06120809063000.22304@bell> Message-ID: <45792AAC.24232.378355B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 9:06, joseph c lang wrote: > I have a pair of teac fd55gfr (5.25 DSDD) drives running on a Monolithic > systems Z80 multibus board. I built a small board to handle the connector > difference. I used an AVR to generate the missing motor on signal. > It looks at the drive select signals and asserts motor on if any drive is > selected. It deasserts motor on after 15 seconds of no drive selected. I guess I AM showing my age. My first impulse would have been to use a 555--and the same for synthesizing a READY* signal if the drive had no jumper to provide one. Although using an AVR or PIC is also a great idea--just never thought of using an MCU for such a simple job. Geezer's disease, I guess. Cheers, Chuck > > So i guess the short answer is it's not hard. I did it. > > None of this is an issue for a storage dongle... It doesn't have a motor ;-) > > > > > >> To be honest, I'd like it if the device did have a direct-link > > >> capability to the outside world (whether it be RS232, USB, Ethernet, > > >> parallel, SCSI, or whatever). But I'm not *that* bothered if it > > >> doesn't; it's not that difficult to sneakernet a CF card back and > > >> forth between the device and a modern system (except that I blew my > > >> card reader up a couple of months back :) > > > > > > My view was that the "1.0" version would have USB or similar. > > > > Maybe; but it's not vital to operation as the intention would be for the > > primary storage to be something like a CF card or a USB stick. Although > > that is interesting; the primary store is a USB stick then it's presumably > > easy to code the firmware so that the device can be plugged in via a cable > > to a system running suitable host software as an alternative (providing the > > device holds sufficient local memory to buffer a track and USB data > > transfer to the host is fast enough to not upset whatever the floppy > > emulator's plugged in to). > > > > Of course I suspect that most of us on here (and in the context of vintage > > hardware in general) are more comfortable with something like RS232... > > > > Personally if I were building it I'd put an expansion bus connector on the > > board and forget about any kind of host interface for the the initial > > release; people can add daughtercards (and updated firmware) for their > > favourite comms interface at a later date... > > > > >>... > > > > > > Understood. My intention was to make it work well as a drop-in drive > > > replacement, and add the other stuff as 'enhanced' features for a 2.0 > > > (or later) device. > > > > Complete agreement. Keep it simple for an initial release; just keep it in > > mind what direction it *might* take in future, I suppose. Key for an > > initial release would be getting it to act like a floppy drive *reliably* > > and working with some form of local storage (personally I like CF, but then > > I do tend to be a bit anti-USB :-) > > > > >> If I knew anything about PIC design* I'd get to doing some messing > > >> around with it right now... :-) > > > > > > A fast PIC could do it. I was leaning more towards something a little > > > more sophisticated (not that a PIC can't be), if for no other reason to > > > support the creeping features I pointed out above. Also, the floppy > > > timings on GCR formats can get a bit weird. FM/MFM should be fairly > > > easy. > > > > That's interesting; personally I hadn't thought about GCR at all really. > > The sort of thing I have stuck in my head right now has three small boards > > to it: > > > > 1) A 'core' board containing CPU, a bit of addressing logic, some local > > memory (whether a whole track buffer or not I don't know), LCD / switch > > logic, ROM, and a header for future expansion. > > 2) A 'local storage interface' board, such as one holding a Compact > > Flash connector and any control logic (I'd hope that most work could be > > done in software) > > 3) An 'emulation' board containing the floppy side of things - > > connector, buffers, and simple control logic (again I'd hope software could > > do the necessary line twiddling. > > > > The interface between the boards would just be an expansion bus; > > essentially just CPU lines and a bit of selection logic. The key is that > > such an approach allows someone to make the floppy-side 'emulation' board > > totally different in future (along with a firmware change) to support some > > completely different floppy electrical specification, or even make it look > > to a vintage machine like some totally different low-speed data device. > > > > Similarly, the 'local storage' side of things could be swapped for > > something else; but the core elements of the device would be that it does > > have some form of local storage (even if a remote host is connected via > > some other comms interface), some form of interface board to a vintage > > system, and that the 'core' board stays the same (with the exception of > > firmware changes). > > > > But, I'm not a hardware designer, so all of that is probably wrong. :-) > > > > > Hard-sector formats might even be easier, or harder. Again, I > > > don't know enough about the signals to really know. > > > > I suspect it's easy enough (but I don't know for sure). It can't be *that* > > complex, but whether it needs a change in hardware, I don't know. But see > > above - worst-case it's just a different emulation board. > > > > > I do a lot of microcontroller crap. I'm in the middle of a move right > > > now (from Portland, OR to Billings, MT), so I don't have a way of > > > testing any theories right now.. but would definately be interested in > > > pursuing this as a project early in the new year once I'm settled here. > > > Anybody interested in starting up a mailing list specifically to start > > > napkin-drawing this thing? I have a listserv... > > > > I just said that in a private email to Chuck a few hours ago, too :) I'm > > all for it - personally what I wouldn't want to see happening is people > > wanting millions of features from day one, though (that's what kills a lot > > of theoretical discussions on here! :) > > > > But a simple device that looks like an SA400/SA800 type floppy drive and > > uses some form of 'portable' local storage, and has some reasonable > > expansion options / future-proofing - yeah, I think that's probably > > doable. It's not exactly Warren's dream of a 'portable to every system' > > type device, but it's a still a darn useful thing to have and I suspect > > would solve a lot of problems for a lot of people (particularly > > longer-term). > > > > Plus it should be reasonably trivial to provide 'floppy to simulator' > > copying in the future without a physical vintage machine, which means that > > for not much effort we get the ability to archive possibly-damaged disks > > from vintage systems onto modern media. (I think Chuck was seeing that as a > > feature of the simulator, whereas I was seeing it more as a simple box of > > tricks which sat between the simulator and a physical drive to handle the > > necessary signalling) > > > > cheers > > > > Jules > > (all 'theorised out' today! :) From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 8 11:06:55 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:06:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <45798B98.2050709@yahoo.co.uk> from Jules Richardson at "Dec 8, 6 09:58:16 am" Message-ID: <200612081706.kB8H6tv2018308@floodgap.com> > > URL and path? > > ftp.trumpet.com.au - which is quite obvious when you think about it :) Ijust > hadn't tried it, but was poking around google's cache of the > www.trumpet.com.au website to see if I could get to a download URL that > worked and happened to stumble across the fact that they also run a FTP > server. > > ftp.trumpet.com seems to work too - but both www.trumpet.com.au and > www.trumpet.com over HTTP give me 403/forbidden errors. What was the path to the file? -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of Douglas Adams ------------------------------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 8 11:18:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 09:18:09 -0800 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <1165592393.6067.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: , <1165592393.6067.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <45792DD1.3024.378F9F70@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 16:39, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > Which is a very good thing because Norway has no neutral wire. :) (Two > phases, 220V p-p) So, the distribution voltage in Norway is 155V RMS? It seems to me that the situation with 110v power tools in the UK is not all that different from our own US convention for larger tools. I know of no portable power tools that use 240v, except for welders and demolition hammers. The distribution transformer (in the case of single-phase power) has its center tap grounded and connected to the neutral conductor. So my table and bandsaw, as well as my jointer and shaper have their frames grounded while using 240v motors. So the maximum exposure to ground in the case of an accident is 120v. But all in all, if I were to be accidentally shocked, I'd rather that it were 55v rather than 120v! Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 8 11:19:43 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 09:19:43 -0800 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! In-Reply-To: <25134785-6D1B-4E60-9A0F-08E161F75A23@neurotica.com> References: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com>, <25134785-6D1B-4E60-9A0F-08E161F75A23@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45792E2F.14461.37910F63@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 10:32, Dave McGuire wrote: > Are you serious, a real-live old-school BBS? That is fantastic! > I've often fantasized about putting one back up (I ran a very small > RCPM machine in New Jersey for a while back in the 1980s while I was > in high school) but have never gotten around to it. I'd love to > recapture some of that old "BBS feel". The World Wide Web is nice, > but there's a certain magic to a BBS that the WWW just hasn't managed > to duplicate. Can I call it using Skype? :) (Ducking the brickbats...) Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 8 11:37:23 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:37:23 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <200612081706.kB8H6tv2018308@floodgap.com> References: <200612081706.kB8H6tv2018308@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4579A2D3.1040603@yahoo.co.uk> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> URL and path? >> ftp.trumpet.com.au - which is quite obvious when you think about it :) Ijust >> hadn't tried it, but was poking around google's cache of the >> www.trumpet.com.au website to see if I could get to a download URL that >> worked and happened to stumble across the fact that they also run a FTP >> server. >> >> ftp.trumpet.com seems to work too - but both www.trumpet.com.au and >> www.trumpet.com over HTTP give me 403/forbidden errors. > > What was the path to the file? aha. ftp://ftp.trumpet.com.au/tcp-abi/ntcpdrv.zip - 'new' TCP driver/TSR ftp://ftp.trumpet.com.au/tcp-abi/tcp201.zip - old driver/TSR + utils Note that only the old driver zip file contains the utilities (ping, ftp etc.), but the 'old' utils seem to work happily with the new driver (I've no idea why they don't package the utils as a separate file if they're compatible with both driver releases!) cheers Jules From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 8 11:51:26 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:51:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for LC/Performa 550 mo'bo', 8*24*GC NuBus card Message-ID: <200612081751.kB8HpQjj018550@floodgap.com> I'm looking for a replacement Mac LC 550 (Performa 550, Color Classic II) motherboard. I'm also looking for an 8*24*GC NuBus video card. If you have either or both of these and are willing to part with/sell them, please let me know off list. Thanks! -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Ah, the insight of hindsight. -- Thurston N. Davis ------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Dec 8 11:54:39 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:54:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: TCP/IP, FTP, and MSDOS? In-Reply-To: <4579A2D3.1040603@yahoo.co.uk> from Jules Richardson at "Dec 8, 6 11:37:23 am" Message-ID: <200612081754.kB8Hsd5J009740@floodgap.com> > aha. > > ftp://ftp.trumpet.com.au/tcp-abi/ntcpdrv.zip - 'new' TCP driver/TSR > ftp://ftp.trumpet.com.au/tcp-abi/tcp201.zip - old driver/TSR + utils > > Note that only the old driver zip file contains the utilities (ping, ftp [...] Ah. Cheers, thanks for that :) -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Support your local hospital. Play hockey. ---------------------------------- From wizard at voyager.net Fri Dec 8 12:34:55 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:34:55 -0500 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! In-Reply-To: <25134785-6D1B-4E60-9A0F-08E161F75A23@neurotica.com> References: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> <25134785-6D1B-4E60-9A0F-08E161F75A23@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1165602895.32029.310.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 10:32 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > Are you serious, a real-live old-school BBS? That is fantastic! > I've often fantasized about putting one back up (I ran a very small > RCPM machine in New Jersey for a while back in the 1980s while I was > in high school) but have never gotten around to it. I'd love to > recapture some of that old "BBS feel". The World Wide Web is nice, > but there's a certain magic to a BBS that the WWW just hasn't managed > to duplicate. Hey, Dave, I ran an RBBS-PC BBS for a little over ten years, Data Basics. I still find references to it, and its phone number, in various places. I'll bet it's annoying for whoever currently has that phone number. I believe I still have the computer loaded with the software... and I have been debating setting it up again, just to make inter-machine transfers of data easier on myself. I used it as advertising, sort of, for my consultancy business. I would answer any technical computer question I got within 24 hours. Fortunately, nobody ever asked a really tough question, so I never ended up stumped. I *DID* have to research a small number of questions, including one all-nighter with a LOT of reference books. THAT was annoying. But, it worked: lots of people, all over town, though of me as "the answer man," and there are lots worse rep's one can have as a consultant. Lansing, Michigan, is a reasonably small town, and the odds are, SOMEBODY in each IT department was subscribed to my board, and would say they knew who to hire to solve a problem. I shut The Data Basics RBBS System down after the Internet ISPs took over the functions. The decision point was that one month I analyzed the CALLERS log, and found that my system had ONLY had messages, and private ones, at that, between two people who were carrying on an extra-marital affair. Kinda took the fun out of it for me... a whole MONTH with what amounts to nobody calling. *SIGH* But, if there's interest, I could probably set it up again... Well, I certainly COULD set it up again, and probably will; the salient point is, is it worth it for a reasonable number of people for me to start paying for another phone line to connect to the outside world, and having one more computer running all the time? I could pretty much guarantee that it would be running on genuine historic equipment. Comments? This would be a U.S. number in the Detroit area, mind you. I can call anywhere in the U.S. for any length of time for a flat fee. (THAT would have been wonderful in the age of FidoNet, the inter-system e-mail protocol that involved calling central hubs to exchange mail.) If you do NOT have this, or live, as many of you apparently do, (as I gather from your OUTRAGEOUS spelling <*>) in Blighty, the cost of a anything more than a quick nostalgia call could be nasty. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Dec 8 13:35:26 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 14:35:26 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? Message-ID: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Hi guys, I've been having an esclating correspondance with a chap named "Murray Balascak" (anyone know him?) - who contacted me regarding his displeasure with my mention of the Apple-1 on the Apple-II page of my site - here is what I have posted as part of my introdiuction to the Apple-II: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In 1976, Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs formed the Apple Computer Company, and built a home computer they called the "Apple 1" in their garage. Although it required the users to provide their own cabinet, power supply, keyboard and video monitor, it didn't require a separate terminal, and a simple BASIC interpreter could be loaded with an optional cassette interface. Although it required a fairly technical user to complete the system and make it usable, about 200 Apple 1s were sold in the first year. The following year (1977), Apple refined the design, providing a keyboard and power supply and packaging the machine in a attractive low-profile plastic cabinet with simple connections for the video monitor and tape storage. Now - anyone who could plug two connectors together could use this computer. The result, called "Apple 2" was one of the most successful early personal computers, and sold many thousands of units. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Mr. Balascaks first correspondance, he stated that the KIM-1 was a far better machine than the Apple-1, asked if I had succumbed to "the relentless revisionism of the brand zealots?", and demanded that I "correct the above reference to show the machine's irrelevance". In his second correspondance, he stated that I am spreading "Apple propaganda", again stated that the KIM-1 was better, sold in higher quantities and cheaper (I still do not know what the KIM-1 has to do with an Apple-II page). In his third correspondance he acqused me of "posting lies and being worse than useless by corrupting history into fiction". Again, he stated that the KIM-1 was a far better machine and much cheaper. In his last email, he indicated that he believes I am responsable for the degradation of the internet and the reason that it cannot be trusted as a source of information. I don't know where this is coming from - I believe my reference to the Apple-1 is accurate considering it's brevity - Apple was formed in 1976 and operated out of Jobs basement. The Apple-1 was sold through the homebrew computer club as well as a few of stores, and although I do not have confirmed numbers of sales, I believe it was around 200 units. It was never my intention to make a page about the Apple-1 (I don't have one, and I only feature systems on my site which are in my collection)... I believe at some point someone asked why I didn't mention the Apple-1 so I added this one paragraph as part of the Apple-II history. I have no other references to the Apple-1 (at least that I can recall) on my site. In all of my responses to him, I indicated that I am unwilling to change the site based on the hearsay of one individual, especially when that person has an apparent (in my opinion based on correspondance received) bias for or against the material being questioned, however I would be happy to revise the site in response to any documented facts/evidence he can provide that the material I have is incorrect. All I have received in return is statements about how much better the KIM-1 was (I make no such comparisons on my site), how expensive the Apple-1 and Apple-II were (I post no such prices on my site), and rants about a website that apparently lists Woz as the "inventor of the single-board computer" (I make no such claim on my site). I should probably just ignore it - but the fact that I have been accused of lying and deliberatly posting misinformation is disturbing to me ... So - I throw it to the list - As a background statement showing that Apple existed and sold a predecessor in small volumes for a time before the Apple-II ... Is my posting above non-factual? If so, in what way, and can you provide supporting documentation? Please keep in mind that I do not wish to post a page about the Apple-1, only a single paragraph as a way of introducing the guys who built the Apple-2. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Dec 8 06:44:49 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 07:44:49 -0500 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Dec 2006 18:14:32 PST." Message-ID: <200612081244.kB8Cio5p023532@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: >> >>> Also a CPLD (maybe a 9536XL) is about as cheap as a >>> GAL now ($1.00 or so), >>> much more capable, and programmable with nothing but >>> a parallel port (JEDEC >>> ISP) >> >> Well not just the parallel port I'm sure. Hope >> someone posts the url that has plans for that... >> you can buy xilinx parallel port "cables" on ebay for $15. i'd be hard pressed to make it myself for less... -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Dec 8 06:46:13 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 07:46:13 -0500 Subject: pdp-8 3 cycle data break? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Dec 2006 16:42:05 MST." Message-ID: <200612081246.kB8CkERR023635@mwave.heeltoe.com> Richard wrote: > >In article <200612072044.kB7Ki2P1032727 at mwave.heeltoe.com>, > Brad Parker writes: > >> any pointers/comments appreciated. > >Maybe something in here? > not bad - thanks. that manual predates my pdp-8 time. I didn't realize the early 8's were so asynchronous. and I didn't realize an df32 was so cool! -brad From marvin at rain.org Fri Dec 8 12:43:08 2006 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 10:43:08 -0800 Subject: Stiction Message-ID: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> I've read several replies indicating that the drive needs to be taken apart. People have also advocated just "hitting" the drive to break the stiction. Holding the drive and giving it a quick twist around the spindle axis has always worked for me and avoids potential problems with disassembly or damage. Has anyone seen stiction on the IDE or later drives? The only stiction I've seen has always been on the 5 1/4" MFM/RLL type drives, and probably ESDI/SCSI/SASI as well although my experience is limited on those drives. Something else I've noticed is that if a drive has stiction, that stiction will return after the drive sets for a while again. Anyone know what actually causes stiction? From wizard at voyager.net Fri Dec 8 12:50:28 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:50:28 -0500 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <45792DD1.3024.378F9F70@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <1165592393.6067.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45792DD1.3024.378F9F70@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1165603829.32029.318.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 09:18 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Dec 2006 at 16:39, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > > > Which is a very good thing because Norway has no neutral wire. :) (Two > > phases, 220V p-p) > > So, the distribution voltage in Norway is 155V RMS? Oh, good... I'm NOT the only one... > But all in all, if I were to be accidentally shocked, I'd rather that > it were 55v rather than 120v! Rick Romero strikes again. Film at eleven. For the unaware, Rick Romero has become a 'Net icon for being the personification of "Captain Obvious." He was, and probably still is, a television reporter for a station in southern California. He earned his notoriety by belaboring the obvious as if it were news... "Obesity thought to be caused by over-eating," and "Sixteen month spree by serial rapist causes local concern." So sincere, so concerned, so clueless. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 12:53:06 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 13:53:06 -0500 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <200612081244.kB8Cio5p023532@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200612081244.kB8Cio5p023532@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 12/8/06, Brad Parker wrote: > > > "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > >> > >>> Also a CPLD (maybe a 9536XL) is about as cheap as a > >>> GAL now ($1.00 or so), > >>> much more capable, and programmable with nothing but > >>> a parallel port (JEDEC > >>> ISP) > >> > >> Well not just the parallel port I'm sure. Hope > >> someone posts the url that has plans for that... > >> > > you can buy xilinx parallel port "cables" on ebay for $15. > > i'd be hard pressed to make it myself for less... I made one according to this guild, http://toolbox.xilinx.com/docsan/2_1i/data/common/jtg/fig26.htm It worked well. vax, 9000 > -brad > From feedle at feedle.net Fri Dec 8 12:57:00 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:57:00 -0700 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4579B57C.7080109@feedle.net> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi guys, > > I've been having an esclating correspondance with a chap named > "Murray Balascak" (anyone know him?) - who contacted me regarding > his displeasure with my mention of the Apple-1 on the Apple-II page of > my site - here is what I have posted as part of my introdiuction to the > Apple-II: Dave: Your page seems to accurately describe the Apple I, and contains nothing that is historically inaccurate. The guy's complaints don't seem very relevant. The KIM-1 is of interest only in the general scheme of 6502-based computers, and perhaps as an interesting historical side-note in the history of Commodore Business Machines (as they bought MOS Technologies sometime soon after the KIM-1). FWIW, I was around in those early days (like a lot around here). My first exposure to a "personal computer" was through the Explorer post in Orange County, who had a small collection of Apple I computers in various configurations. I also saw a lot of Imsai and Altair machines as well in that age. I didn't see a KIM-1 until I was in college, and then it was considered an "artifact." From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 8 13:03:20 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:03:20 -0600 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4579B6F8.8040409@mdrconsult.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi guys, > > I've been having an esclating correspondance with a chap named > "Murray Balascak" (anyone know him?) - who contacted me regarding > his displeasure with my mention of the Apple-1 on the Apple-II page of > my site - here is what I have posted as part of my introdiuction to the > Apple-II: Are you sure that isn't M. Sokolov under a nym? Doc From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 8 13:07:49 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:07:49 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> References: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> Message-ID: <45794785.6071.37F40BF7@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 10:43, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I've read several replies indicating that the drive needs to be taken apart. > People have also advocated just "hitting" the drive to break the stiction. I don't think what some of the folks were talking about was "stiction". It seemed as if the positioner itself were stuck. IIRC. In the case of stiction, the spindle motor itself cannot overcome the adhesion between the platters and the heads, so the drive never spins up. I've got an SA-4008 that I'm wondering about--obviously the spindle motor spins the platters up to speed, but the drive doesn't come ready (it did about 5 years ago when I last powered it). I'm wondering if there's a stuck positioner issue on that one. Anyone have any ideas? Cheers, Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 8 13:08:27 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:08:27 -0800 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4579B82B.10806@sbcglobal.net> > >I should probably just ignore it - but the fact that I have been accused >of lying and deliberatly posting misinformation is disturbing to me ... >So - I throw it to the list - As a background statement showing that >Apple existed and sold a predecessor in small volumes for a time >before the Apple-II ... Is my posting above non-factual? If so, in >what way, and can you provide supporting documentation? > >Please keep in mind that I do not wish to post a page about the Apple-1, >only a single paragraph as a way of introducing the guys who built >the Apple-2. > >Regards, >Dave > > Your page looks accurate to me. The Apple 1 was a little expensive ($666.66 in 1976). I have a flyer advertising the Apple 1 here: http://www.dvq.com/misc/images/apple.pdf It shows the date and price. Bob From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Dec 8 13:12:57 2006 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 11:12:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: References: <200612081244.kB8Cio5p023532@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2006, 9000 VAX wrote: > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 13:53:06 -0500 > From: 9000 VAX > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: What would it take... > > On 12/8/06, Brad Parker wrote: >> >> >> "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: >> >> >> >>> Also a CPLD (maybe a 9536XL) is about as cheap as a >> >>> GAL now ($1.00 or so), >> >>> much more capable, and programmable with nothing but >> >>> a parallel port (JEDEC >> >>> ISP) >> >> >> >> Well not just the parallel port I'm sure. Hope >> >> someone posts the url that has plans for that... >> >> >> >> you can buy xilinx parallel port "cables" on ebay for $15. >> >> i'd be hard pressed to make it myself for less... > > > I made one according to this guild, > http://toolbox.xilinx.com/docsan/2_1i/data/common/jtg/fig26.htm > > It worked well. > > vax, 9000 > > >> -brad >> > I have PCBs for a Xilinx model 3 parallel compatible cable with some improvements: Schmitt triggers on all I/O - especially important on TCLK if you have a long parallel cable. HC (not HCT) parts and VIO clamp so it will work reliably with 2.5V JTAG If anyone wants one I will mail them to them for free... Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Dec 8 13:09:27 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:09:27 -0500 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> Message-ID: <200612081915.kB8JFH32035149@keith.ezwind.net> Stiction is mostly caused by a breakdown in the lubricant. Over simplified, oil turns to varnish or tar. I too have had good luck with a wrist twist to get them spinning again. and there is a very high likeliness that they will bind up again if allowed to stop and cool down. I have seen several IDE's have had stiction problems after being shut down for the first time after extended 24/7 use. I have a maxtor that bound up on me, two days ago, after 6 years of constant 24/7 server use I shut it down for a long over due upgrade. It cooled off while I moved the system to the my cave to work on it and the drive never spun back up. I knew I should have backed a few things up before I moved it :( In the past, I opened up an IDE and spun it up by hand. Once it got running, I got the files off of it I needed. For fun I left it run open on the workbench bench for close to a week before it died. I had a lot of people come by to see it, and stared in disbelief as the heads sang across the disk when I did a defrag on it. later Bob Bradlee On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 10:43:08 -0800, Marvin Johnston wrote: >I've read several replies indicating that the drive needs to be taken apart. >People have also advocated just "hitting" the drive to break the stiction. >Holding the drive and giving it a quick twist around the spindle axis has always >worked for me and avoids potential problems with disassembly or damage. >Has anyone seen stiction on the IDE or later drives? The only stiction I've seen >has always been on the 5 1/4" MFM/RLL type drives, and probably ESDI/SCSI/SASI >as well although my experience is limited on those drives. >Something else I've noticed is that if a drive has stiction, that stiction will >return after the drive sets for a while again. Anyone know what actually causes >stiction? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 8 13:15:35 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:15:35 -0600 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4579B9D7.3040007@yahoo.co.uk> Dave Dunfield wrote: > I should probably just ignore it Yep. If you're not judging the Apple-1 against anything else, then you haven't done anything wrong. In addition, as far as I'm aware you haven't stated anything factually incorrect (although I'm from the wrong side of the pond there, so my knowledge of Apple history's a little basic!) He obviously thinks you're a talented historian and writer who just hasn't taken the opportunity to write about his favourite machine. Take it as praise and move on :-) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 8 13:25:02 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 11:25:02 -0800 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <4579B57C.7080109@feedle.net> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca>, <4579B57C.7080109@feedle.net> Message-ID: <45794B8E.18622.3803CD3A@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 11:57, C. Sullivan wrote: > Your page seems to accurately describe the Apple I, and contains nothing > that is historically inaccurate. The guy's complaints don't seem very > relevant. The KIM-1 is of interest only in the general scheme of > 6502-based computers, and perhaps as an interesting historical side-note > in the history of Commodore Business Machines (as they bought MOS > Technologies sometime soon after the KIM-1). Ditto here--and I remember the Homebrew offer for the Apple that was pitched--it was some discount off of the $666.66 asking retail price, but I can't recall the exact number. I passed it up--I already had my S-100 box, as did quite a few people. A single-board computer just didn't interest me. I did have a couple of friends who owned KIM-1 boards, but I think they soon became frustrated at the lack of expandability (versus an S- 100 box). There were vendors who offered external card cages and even a floppy controller for KIM-1 expansion, but it was a scattered effort. (BTW, I still have a 2708 EPROM burner for a KIM-1 if anyone wants it.) I'm trying to remember if it was Solid State Music who offered the S- 100 6502 board. Does anyone recall? Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 8 13:26:41 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:26:41 -0600 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> References: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> Message-ID: <4579BC71.8030006@yahoo.co.uk> Marvin Johnston wrote: > Has anyone seen stiction on the IDE or later drives? Yep, on early Connor IDE drives. I don't know if that happened to be a bad batch (I was testing them a couple of years after manufacture and 2/3 were DOA due to stiction), or "they were all like that, sir". I don't recall seeing it on later IDE drives though, or on any SCSI drive (don't forget that some SCSI drives won't spin up without communication with the HBA, so can appear dead when power only is applied) > Something else I've noticed is that if a drive has stiction, that stiction will > return after the drive sets for a while again. Anyone know what actually causes > stiction? my *assumption* is that it's some sort of break-down in either the head material or the coating on the platters, such that when at rest of any period of time the heads manage to reattach themselves to the platters. Unfortunately there seems to be no cure, expect for never powering the drive down until some other failure finally renders it useless. cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From ray at arachelian.com Fri Dec 8 13:55:55 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:55:55 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4579C34B.2010606@arachelian.com> Hmmm, wasn't last night (or a day before) a full moon? I think that would explain the, um, interesting exchange. ;-) >From what little I know of the KIM-1, it was a single board computer without a case. It did have an LED segment display and a hexadecimal keyboard. Nothing to write home about. The Apple ][ (and not to be an Apple biggot, so I'll mention the PET) were more complete computers. Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi guys, > > I've been having an esclating correspondance with a chap named > "Murray Balascak" (anyone know him?) - who contacted me regarding > his displeasure with my mention of the Apple-1 on the Apple-II page of > my site - here is what I have posted as part of my introdiuction to the > Apple-II: > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 8 13:54:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 19:54:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <45794785.6071.37F40BF7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 8, 6 11:07:49 am Message-ID: > I've got an SA-4008 that I'm wondering about--obviously the spindle You mean the 14" one? > motor spins the platters up to speed, but the drive doesn't come > ready (it did about 5 years ago when I last powered it). I'm > wondering if there's a stuck positioner issue on that one. Anyone > have any ideas? The SA4000 that I have a techincal manual for (and which is used in the PERQ 1) uses a stepper motor to move the heads. It doesn't (AFAIK) require any feedback signal from the platters to go ready... Let me look at the manual. I can at least see what causes the ready line to be asserted, and you can check back from that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 8 13:33:13 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 19:33:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <457851E6.22424.343494F9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 7, 6 05:39:50 pm Message-ID: > > I own a Toshiba microwave oven (with 3-prong grounding plug) that > will not power up if the mains socket is wired up with the feed > reversed. Drove me crazy the first time I tried to use it until I Is this by accident or design? > > [For those who wonder what on earth I am talking about, portable > > industrial power tools -- electric drills, for example -- in the UK are > > 110V devices. > > At what level does this not hold true? For example, I've got a nice > big router (portable) that draws a full 15 amps at 120v at startup. > That would be a pretty large transformer. The 'standaed' portable power tool transformer over here is rated at 3 (or 3.3) kVA. It's fitted with a pair of output sockets, each rated to carry 16A (obviously you can't load both fully at the same time). Even that can be a little marginal. I am sure I've seen at least one portable power tool over here (probably an angle grinder) that was rated at 2.8kW > Nowadays, however, most portable tools are simply constructed as > "double insulated". Yes, so are these. But if that insulation fails, or the tool gets wet (say on a building site), it's better to get 55V across you than 230V. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 8 13:36:41 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 19:36:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: <1165547014.32029.256.camel@linux.site> from "Warren Wolfe" at Dec 7, 6 10:03:34 pm Message-ID: > Interestingly, that is how U.S. Navy power on-board ships works, > too. (Well, as of 25 years ago... *SIGH*) Two out-of-phase 60 volt > live sides. U.S. standard house wiring is, however, three wire: Live, > Neutral, and Ground at 120 volts, 60 Hz. Some equipment we used on the > ship was designed for land-based labs, and case-grounded, which meant > that when you plugged them in, you were shorting out half the mains. Why? Since there should be no connection between the active parts of the mains circuit and the earthed metal case, why did it matter what point of the mains supply (one side, or the mid point) was grounded? -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Dec 8 14:04:10 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 20:04:10 -0000 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <002101c71b04$07a34c30$5f04010a@uatempname> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi guys, > > I've been having an esclating correspondance with a chap named > "Murray Balascak" (anyone know him?) Nope. But if he's from Concordia University, he's not just picking on you: http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000069-2.html (he's mentioend a few times before you get to the bit he wrote). BTW: Your page doesn't mention how the VAX-11/780 packaging was much better than the packaging that came with the Apple I. Where do I send my long, rambling email of complaint? :-) Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 8 14:11:14 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 12:11:14 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: References: <45794785.6071.37F40BF7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 8, 6 11:07:49 am, Message-ID: <45795662.2993.382E1BC3@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 19:54, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've got an SA-4008 that I'm wondering about--obviously the spindle > > You mean the 14" one? Exactly. I'm not sure if 4008 is the right model; it's the 40MB one. > Let me look at the manual. I can at least see what causes the ready line > to be asserted, and you can check back from that. Thanks! --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 8 14:14:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 12:14:05 -0800 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: References: <457851E6.22424.343494F9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 7, 6 05:39:50 pm, Message-ID: <4579570D.26811.3830B7AD@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 19:33, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I own a Toshiba microwave oven (with 3-prong grounding plug) that > > will not power up if the mains socket is wired up with the feed > > reversed. Drove me crazy the first time I tried to use it until I > > Is this by accident or design? Strangely enough, it's by design. I wondered the same thing and went to the owner's manual. Says so right there. But then, it's an old microwave, so that's when Japanese consumer appliances were still engineered with something other than selling price in mind. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 8 14:52:36 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 14:52:36 -0600 Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP References: Message-ID: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> I have one of the parallel port to ethernet devices... a Xircom. I wonder if anyone ever reverse engineered the user interface to the parallel port for it :) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 8 14:55:36 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 14:55:36 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net><4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk><45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> <160501c71a55$73c485f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <01e701c71b0b$35cebd40$6500a8c0@BILLING> It was written... >> Anybody interested in starting up a mailing list specifically to start >> napkin-drawing this thing? I have a listserv... As do I ;) I wouldn't think it's necessary though... see below... > Chalk me on that! But would this kind of chat be offtopic for this > list? This has been discussed before. This type of conversation is most definitely on-topic. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 8 14:57:31 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 14:57:31 -0600 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net><4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk><45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> <160501c71a55$73c485f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <01ec01c71b0b$7be16df0$6500a8c0@BILLING> However this winds up being done.... I'd love it if there was an RS232 serial interface on it with some type of procotol that was documented. I'd LOVE to write a little driver on the HP 2100 that let me write files to it which could then be moved back and forth to a PC... Jay From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Dec 8 15:11:07 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 15:11:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: Need any "old" tape media? In-Reply-To: <200612081039.02757.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200612071622.22234.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200612081039.02757.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Dec 2006, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 07 December 2006 19:11, Tothwolf wrote: > >> Won't degaussing DDS tapes wipe the factory written sync stuff and >> render the tapes worthless? (That was my experience with some years ago >> anyway...) > > It looks like you're right. I'm glad that no one has requested any DDS > media. :) It looks like I probably won't be able to offer it (at least > not at that low of a price) if I have to erase it with a drive rather > than just throw it on the degausser for a few seconds. Got an autochanger? The older ones are pretty cheap too, it might pay for itself ;) I don't think degaussing hurts 8mm (someone correct me if I'm wrong), though I have no idea what it does to the higher density DLT/SDLT stuff. I know it won't hurt the TK50/TK70 carts, though in the case of the TK70s, some drives might think they are TK50s until they get rewritten. -Toth From wizard at voyager.net Fri Dec 8 15:40:05 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:40:05 -0500 Subject: ASR-33 conversion to 220V In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165614005.32029.330.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 19:36 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > Warren: > > Interestingly, that is how U.S. Navy power on-board ships works, > > too. (Well, as of 25 years ago... *SIGH*) Two out-of-phase 60 volt > > live sides. U.S. standard house wiring is, however, three wire: Live, > > Neutral, and Ground at 120 volts, 60 Hz. Some equipment we used on the > > ship was designed for land-based labs, and case-grounded, which meant > > that when you plugged them in, you were shorting out half the mains. > > Why? Since there should be no connection between the active parts of the > mains circuit and the earthed metal case, why did it matter what point of > the mains supply (one side, or the mid point) was grounded? I worked in a calibration lab. Apparently, some equipment connects (or USED to connect - it certainly would NOT work with a GFI system) the neutral to ground to avoid low current ground loops that could cause tiny measurement errors. I was never quite sure of the physics of that whole "ground loop" business. Anyway, some of the equipment with 3-prong plugs shorted the neutral to ground. This conflicted with ship's power, which was NOT 120 V. service, but two out-of-phase 60 volt circuits, as produced by a motor-generator set. Shorting neutral to ground didn't "fix" neutral at a low potential, it shorted one side. A couple instruments even did it before the fuses. I'm not sure what the thinking was behind that, but fortunately the power cord WILL act as a fuse, although it is rated at quite a few amps, and kind of stinks when it operates... Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Dec 8 15:39:56 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 15:39:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: Apple-1 History? Message-ID: <200612082139.kB8LdrOo042979@keith.ezwind.net> --- Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi guys, > *>> snip <<* > > I should probably just ignore it - but the fact th at > I have been accused > of lying and deliberatly posting misinformation is > disturbing to me ... > So - I throw it to the list - As a background > statement showing that > Apple existed and sold a predecessor in small > volumes for a time > before the Apple-II ... Is my posting above > non-factual? If so, in > what way, and can you provide supporting > documentation? > > Please keep in mind that I do not wish to post a > page about the Apple-1, > only a single paragraph as a way of introducing th e > guys who built > the Apple-2. > > Regards, > Dave > Sounds perfectly reasonable to me and, whilst have I no knowledge about the A1's sales figures, the other fact's all seem to be correct. I seem to recall reading about the Apple 1 in either one of my 80 Microcomputing mags or, possibly more likely, the book On The Edge: The Spectacualr Rise and Fall Of Commodore (published last year). Personally, I think it's good to mention rival computers and/or previous models when talking about specific computers. I can see nothing wrong with what you have put and can only say that you have unintensionally rattled a KIM-1 fan. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From wizard at voyager.net Fri Dec 8 15:47:21 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:47:21 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <01ec01c71b0b$7be16df0$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net> <4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk><45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net> <160501c71a55$73c485f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <01ec01c71b0b$7be16df0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1165614441.32029.336.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2006-12-08 at 14:57 -0600, Jay West wrote: > However this winds up being done.... I'd love it if there was an RS232 > serial interface on it with some type of procotol that was documented. I'd > LOVE to write a little driver on the HP 2100 that let me write files to it > which could then be moved back and forth to a PC... Well, if I can (at best) combine or (at worst) conflate two ongoing topics... Why not just write an XModem driver for the HP 2100, and connect to a PC as a BBS? Come to think of it, there are probably XModem (or derivatives or competitors) protocol drivers for it already... On an unrelated topic, did you ever hear of Steve Schmidt? I used to work with HP 21MX machines. He, in order to make a very useful department computer at Michigan Technical University, wrote CP/M into microcode on the 21MX. It was full multi-user, and he implemented Z-80 instructions in microcode, too. Oh, yes, the CP/M call was a single micro-coded instruction. They used various CP/M commercial software on it, and were quite pleased. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Dec 8 15:52:13 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:52:13 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> References: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> Message-ID: <4579DE8D.1030707@msm.umr.edu> Marvin Johnston wrote: > > >Has anyone seen stiction on the IDE or later drives? The only stiction I've seen >has always been on the 5 1/4" MFM/RLL type drives, and probably ESDI/SCSI/SASI >as well although my experience is limited on those drives. > > > I had three cases out of it on ST-225 and relatives. >Something else I've noticed is that if a drive has stiction, that stiction will >return after the drive sets for a while again. Anyone know what actually causes >stiction? > > In the case of the ST-225 they used defective magnetic lubricant on the axis which eventually developed too much friction for the start up pulses in the motor to overcome. A bit of a kick as you mentioned is the only thing to try. once the disk stack is in motion, the motors have to be able to keep it going and if the friction is that great there is no way that taking it apart will fix anything. Never saw it in the smaller drives, but I did see a number of them with being unable to regulate their speed, which may have been a vaiant. They would make different sounds after startup and eventually spin down when they could not find a place to track. This could have been a failure to spin at the right speed, or a failure to correctly lock onto the reference servo and see a basic clock, or an increased friction keeping it from getting up to the correct speed. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 8 16:00:30 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 15:00:30 -0700 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 08 Dec 2006 15:39:56 -0600. <200612082139.kB8LdrOo042979@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: I would have already been ignoring this guy by the second email. Cranks, and their emails, have a certain 'signature' to them and this guy has all the hallmarks of a crank. You can always put an HTML comment in the source telling him to shut up :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Dec 8 16:04:14 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 17:04:14 -0500 Subject: Kinda OT: LASCRs? Message-ID: <9519EB79-8FFF-4E63-88EE-5CB91C256258@neurotica.com> Hey folks. As a kid in the 1970s with access to only Radio Shack for parts and educational materials, I had a lot of Forrest Mims' books. I've dug up a lot of the ones learned from (new copies via eBay; my original ones are sadly long gone) and in fits of nostalgia I've built quite a few of the old circuits I played with when I was 8 or 9. One component that I really liked was the LASCR. I had one which I used in a few different circuits back then. While I still have some of my old stuff from that era, that one LASCR is nowhere to be found...Now it seems they've disappeared from the scene entirely. Has anyone seen any lately? Is anyone making them anymore? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 16:04:45 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 11:04:45 +1300 Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On 12/9/06, Jay West wrote: > I have one of the parallel port to ethernet devices... a Xircom. I wonder if > anyone ever reverse engineered the user interface to the parallel port for > it :) It would be interesting if anyone ever did. I tried to, about 10 years ago, and ran into a brick wall at Xircom. At the time, there were few options for Ethernet for Amiga, the expensive A2065 being one of a very small number of choices. I had thought that while the pocket adapters would never be fast, every Amiga had a parallel connector and it might be possible to at least put machines on ones network and worry about speed later. I was involved in talks with their technical folks about securing developer-class docs when they totally shut me down because they "didn't want to enter the Amiga market". When pocket adapters came up in the Linux arena shortly thereafter, I made some comments on a mailing list about how difficult Xircom was to work with and how I couldn't endorse their products as such. That comment stuck around on the 'net for a long time, long past the time when I was using a Xircom CE3 PCMCIA NIC with Linux. -ethan From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Dec 8 16:23:28 2006 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:23:28 +0000 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> Dave Dunfield wrote: > I should probably just ignore it - but the fact that I have been accused > of lying and deliberatly posting misinformation is disturbing to me ... > So - I throw it to the list - As a background statement showing that > Apple existed and sold a predecessor in small volumes for a time > before the Apple-II ... Is my posting above non-factual? If so, in > what way, and can you provide supporting documentation? No, as far as I can see, what you said on your site is perfectly accurate. You're not comparing the Apple I to the II, so why he's bitching (and it really seems to just be bitching) about the KIM-1 being 'better', I have no idea. I'd just put it down to him being a rambling fool. I've had *much* worse... Most memorable was someone who wanted me to design him a load of what I'd describe as 'borderline illegal electronic devices' (GPS jammers, airband transceivers, crap like that). I politely declined, then got a wonderful email back to the effect of 'I pay my internet subscription, I'm ENTITLED to this'. Yeah right, pull the other one jackass. Then I got a guy who took a look at my battery-tab welder and demanded that I "upload a better f*cking schematic"... I'm beginning to wonder if there's something in the water or food supply that's impairing the mental functioning of a good chunk of the population of the planet. Or maybe it's global warming - that seems to be the in-vogue 'problem' at the moment. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 8 16:39:23 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 15:39:23 -0700 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:23:28 +0000. <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In article <4579E5E0.8010508 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > [...] Or maybe it's global warming - that seems to be the in-vogue > 'problem' at the moment. Global warming causes bit rot. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Dec 8 16:40:13 2006 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:40:13 -0800 Subject: library book sales In-Reply-To: (Bill Pechter's message of "Fri\, 8 Dec 2006 11\:58\:21 -0500") References: <200612080704.kB874Gpc095134@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <200612082240.kB8MeDep012041@lots.reanimators.org> Bill Pechter wrote: > Damn... some good stuff on the bookshelves. The Comer books, the Stevens > books. > Wish I had those here... Have you looked at ? -Frank McConnell From wizard at voyager.net Fri Dec 8 17:02:47 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 18:02:47 -0500 Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP In-Reply-To: References: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <1165618967.32029.341.camel@linux.site> On Sat, 2006-12-09 at 11:04 +1300, Ethan Dicks wrote: > . . . I made some comments on a mailing list about how difficult > Xircom was to work with and how I couldn't endorse their products as > such. That comment stuck around on the 'net for a long time, long > past the time when I was using a Xircom CE3 PCMCIA NIC with Linux. Yeah, that's a problem... most of us tend to write these e-mail comments as if they were a bit of talk tossed off (American sense of the phrased, please... well, actually, both could apply...) in casual conversation. Then they get sent to perhaps hundreds of people, and archived for posterity. So, it's clear one should say ONLY things one wants remembered for yea... er, wait. Never mind. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From ray at arachelian.com Fri Dec 8 17:22:26 2006 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 18:22:26 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4579F3B2.2080806@arachelian.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > > I'm beginning to wonder if there's something in the water or food > supply that's impairing the mental functioning of a good chunk of the > population of the planet. Or maybe it's global warming - that seems to > be the in-vogue 'problem' at the moment. > Nah, chalk it up to evolution. Some mutations are useful and provide great advantages to those individuals who have them. Others, such as those exhibited by the individuals described in this thread, will likely result in Darwin Awards in the long run. It's true that environment may have had a hand in some of these, for instance, perhaps some of the individuals may have been dropped on their heads, disabled the door switch on a microwave oven and stuck their head inside while it was turned on, or had leaded paint chips fall into their morning cereal, or perhaps have bit into old style thermometers (the kind that used to have mercury in them) and sucked hard, but the end result is pretty much the same. Instead of worrying about debating their points just congratulate them that they were able to somehow manage to get online and figure out how to use email. Perhaps, they may have even be able to tie their own shoelaces today, or spell their own names. That's really a great achievement considering their situation, so email them back congratulating them, if you're so inclined. As long as you don't give them your home phone number, all will be just peachy. :-) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Dec 8 17:25:05 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 15:25:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: magic-1 boards Message-ID: I'm attempting to build a Magic-1 using gEDA. Would anyone be interested in a set of boards for the Magic-1? I'm just pondering the idea right now. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ken at seefried.com Fri Dec 8 18:13:41 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 19:13:41 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612082145.kB8LimVA097268@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612082145.kB8LimVA097268@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061209001341.17205.qmail@seefried.com> From: "Dave Dunfield" > >I've been having an esclating correspondance with a chap named >"Murray Balascak" (anyone know him?) - > The following might come as a suprise: There are trolls on the internet. There are psychos on the internet. There are irrational, obsessive, socially retarded, self-important fanatics on the net. Sometimes, one of them finds you, and makes you the subject of their current delusion. They're easy to identify, and it's best not to have "escalating correspondence" with them. > >I should probably just ignore it - > Bingo. From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Dec 8 18:22:12 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 16:22:12 -0800 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases Message-ID: <20061209002212.GA16903@motherbrain.retronet.net> Folks, I'm trying to hunt down old VAX/VMS releases (earlier than 5.4) and old Ultrix and ULTRIX-32 releases (earlier than 4.2, both for VAX and for RISC). Tape images or CD-ROM images (where appropriate) would be quite welcome, I don't need any original media. If you have any of this stuff lurking around, please do let me know. Thanks very much! -Seth From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 8 18:23:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 16:23:36 -0800 Subject: Kinda OT: LASCRs? In-Reply-To: <9519EB79-8FFF-4E63-88EE-5CB91C256258@neurotica.com> References: <9519EB79-8FFF-4E63-88EE-5CB91C256258@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <45799188.18240.39152641@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 17:04, Dave McGuire wrote: > One component that I really liked was the LASCR. I had one > which I used in a few different circuits back then. While I still > have some of my old stuff from that era, that one LASCR is nowhere to > be found...Now it seems they've disappeared from the scene entirely. > Has anyone seen any lately? Is anyone making them anymore? They used to be quite common in photographic equipment where a strobe was to be slaved to a master unit. I did some browsing around and checking catalogs and have come to the conclusion that it may be easier to find tunnel diodes than LASCRs now. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 18:26:24 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 13:26:24 +1300 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: <20061209002212.GA16903@motherbrain.retronet.net> References: <20061209002212.GA16903@motherbrain.retronet.net> Message-ID: On 12/9/06, Seth J. Morabito wrote: > Folks, > > I'm trying to hunt down old VAX/VMS releases (earlier than 5.4) and old > Ultrix and ULTRIX-32 releases (earlier than 4.2, both for VAX and for > RISC). Tape images or CD-ROM images (where appropriate) would be quite > welcome, I don't need any original media. I do have a quantity of this stuff, but won't have access to it for a couple of months. If you are still looking for VMS 3.6, 4.x or 5.x or Ultrix 1.x or 2.x in March, I may be able to help. I would have standalone boot kits for uVAX and 11/750 more likely than anything else, and nearly all 16MT9 (9-track tape) distro media with a smattering of TU58s and TK50s. We never got any OSes on CD where I used to work. -ethan From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Dec 8 18:42:17 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 16:42:17 -0800 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: References: <20061209002212.GA16903@motherbrain.retronet.net> Message-ID: <20061209004217.GA17123@motherbrain.retronet.net> On Sat, Dec 09, 2006 at 01:26:24PM +1300, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/9/06, Seth J. Morabito wrote: > >Folks, > > > >I'm trying to hunt down old VAX/VMS releases (earlier than 5.4) and old > >Ultrix and ULTRIX-32 releases (earlier than 4.2, both for VAX and for > >RISC). Tape images or CD-ROM images (where appropriate) would be quite > >welcome, I don't need any original media. > > I do have a quantity of this stuff, but won't have access to it for a > couple of months. If you are still looking for VMS 3.6, 4.x or 5.x or > Ultrix 1.x or 2.x in March, I may be able to help. > > I would have standalone boot kits for uVAX and 11/750 more likely than > anything else, and nearly all 16MT9 (9-track tape) distro media with a > smattering of TU58s and TK50s. We never got any OSes on CD where I > used to work. > > -ethan Hi Ethan, Thanks for letting me know! I'll surely still be interested, so please keep me in mind. Those distributions sound like exactly what I'm after. Regards, -Seth Morabito From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Dec 8 19:19:44 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 01:19:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Dec 8, 6 07:54:39 pm Message-ID: > The SA4000 that I have a techincal manual for (and which is used in the > PERQ 1) uses a stepper motor to move the heads. It doesn't (AFAIK) > require any feedback signal from the platters to go ready... No, I was wrong. According to the manual, the 'ready' signal depends on a clock signal that comes from a special track on one of the platters, picked up by a fixed head. The basic procedure if the drive won't go ready is to look at the output of this head's amplifier, if that's missing/incorrect to troubleshoot or replace the read/write PCB (and if that doesn't get it back, then the fault is inside the HDA and is not field repairable). If the output of the clock head amplifier is OK, then therer's a fault on the control PCB. I can find more details if you want. -tony From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Dec 8 19:29:41 2006 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 19:29:41 -0600 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <457A1185.6020700@mdrconsult.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm beginning to wonder if there's something in the water or food supply > that's impairing the mental functioning of a good chunk of the > population of the planet. Or maybe it's global warming - that seems to > be the in-vogue 'problem' at the moment. Google "aspartame Donald Rumsfeld". Be sure your tinfoil hat is properly tuned before reading. Seriously, though, the stuff is amazingly toxic, and proven psychoactive. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 8 19:44:25 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 17:44:25 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: References: from "Tony Duell" at Dec 8, 6 07:54:39 pm, Message-ID: <4579A479.29672.395F241A@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Dec 2006 at 1:19, Tony Duell wrote: > No, I was wrong. According to the manual, the 'ready' signal depends on a > clock signal that comes from a special track on one of the platters, > picked up by a fixed head. The basic procedure if the drive won't go > ready is to look at the output of this head's amplifier, if that's > missing/incorrect to troubleshoot or replace the read/write PCB (and if > that doesn't get it back, then the fault is inside the HDA and is not > field repairable). If the output of the clock head amplifier is OK, then > therer's a fault on the control PCB. Thanks, it's enough to get me started. I'll let you know if I'm unsuccessful. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Dec 8 19:47:41 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 18:47:41 -0700 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 08 Dec 2006 19:13:41 -0500. <20061209001341.17205.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: In article <20061209001341.17205.qmail at seefried.com>, "Ken Seefried" writes: > Sometimes, one of them finds you, and makes you the subject of their current > delusion. They're easy to identify, and it's best not to have "escalating > correspondence" with them. Sometimes one of them decides that because you won't escalate the flamewar, they need to make a wikipedia page where they bash you there. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From g-wright at att.net Fri Dec 8 19:53:20 2006 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 01:53:20 +0000 Subject: Stiction Message-ID: <120920060153.5861.457A171000069931000016E521602807489B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Chuck Guzis" > On 8 Dec 2006 at 10:43, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > I've read several replies indicating that the drive needs to be taken apart. > > People have also advocated just "hitting" the drive to break the stiction. > > I don't think what some of the folks were talking about was > "stiction". It seemed as if the positioner itself were stuck. IIRC. > In the case of stiction, the spindle motor itself cannot overcome the > adhesion between the platters and the heads, so the drive never spins > up. > > I've got an SA-4008 that I'm wondering about--obviously the spindle > motor spins the platters up to speed, but the drive doesn't come > ready (it did about 5 years ago when I last powered it). I'm > wondering if there's a stuck positioner issue on that one. Anyone > have any ideas? > > Cheers, > Chuck > I have seen may of the older drives have the rubber on the head position stops go bad and hang up the head position or cause it to stick. I have been daring and opened up the drive to clean it off. if this is the problem it can of coarse trash the drive if it gets off the stop post. Cleaning is on easy and takes some time. The next challenge is getting something to replace it with out taking the drive apart. (head alignment.) On some Quantumn 8" dives I spilt some tubing and rapped it around the post with contact glue. So far they still work Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc. From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Dec 8 19:59:27 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 20:59:27 -0500 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 08 Dec 2006 10:43:08 PST." <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> Message-ID: <200612090159.kB91xRUP012041@mwave.heeltoe.com> Marvin Johnston wrote: > >Something else I've noticed is that if a drive has stiction, that stiction >will return after the drive sets for a while again. Anyone know what actually >causes stiction? my dim recollection (back in the day I did actually talk to people from rodime, lapine, nec, etc about 10 & 20mb 3" st-506 drives) is that it was combination of the media plating, coating on the platter and the heads themselves. since there is no landing zone the heads set down on the media. if the media was very smooth and the lubricant too thick, the heads would glue themselves to the media. I suspect there is slightly more to it than that, but it's been a while for me. I know the firmware often did a lot to try and mitigate the problem but I think in the end it was changes in lubricant/coating which made it go away. -brad From brain at jbrain.com Fri Dec 8 22:38:40 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:38:40 -0600 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <457A3DD0.1070503@jbrain.com> Other have noted good information, so I won't rehash. However, if you feel you must respond, feel free to give my name and email, and he can Google for me, for I am a CBM zealot. In light of my qualifications as a CBM fanboi, I will note that KIM-1 was impressive in its price only, little else. The Apple I did not require a Terminal, the KIM-1 did Apple I had 4kB RAM std, KIM-1 had 1kB + 64 bytes. As well, I think the expansion options on the Apple I were more extensive. There are others, of course, but to be fair, it's an apples to oranges comparison. Woz built the Apple-I as a machine, Peddle made the KIM-1 to show off MOS' new CPU. Jim From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Dec 8 23:57:54 2006 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 05:57:54 +0000 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457A5062.2030100@philpem.me.uk> Richard wrote: > Sometimes one of them decides that because you won't escalate the > flamewar, they need to make a wikipedia page where they bash you > there. And usually a Wikipedia admin puts said page on Request For Deletion status. "Expand this page and make it useful before , or it will be zapped!" - great way to deal with the hordes of junk :) -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Dec 9 00:33:14 2006 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:33:14 -0800 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: (legalize@xmission.com's message of "Fri\, 08 Dec 2006 18\:47\:41 -0700") References: Message-ID: <200612090633.kB96XF5G019941@lots.reanimators.org> Richard wrote: > "Ken Seefried" writes: >> Sometimes, one of them finds you, and makes you the subject of their current >> delusion. They're easy to identify, and it's best not to have "escalating >> correspondence" with them. > > Sometimes one of them decides that because you won't escalate the > flamewar, they need to make a wikipedia page where they bash you > there. I was kinda thinking that Dave (or someone, or maybe a bunch of someones) ought to go over to uncyclopedia.org and make up some stuff about a certain 6502 eval board (and maybe some other stuff) that (a) we can all laugh at and (b) will give Dave's whacko correspondent's tinfoil headgear a pressure test when he runs across it. -Frank McConnell From drewbrasil at yahoo.com.br Fri Dec 8 02:59:19 2006 From: drewbrasil at yahoo.com.br (Andrew Wiskow) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 05:59:19 -0300 (ART) Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! Message-ID: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> Cottonwood BBS is back online and operational! After much trial and error, I've got all the right pieces put together... So dust off your old modem, and give Cottonwood BBS a call. It's presently the only known Commodore dial-up BBS in existence! I apologize to anyone who tried to call before... The VoIP line I tried to use didn't work out... So I'm back with a new number, a regular phone line, and NO line noise! Call now at +1 (951)242-3593 For detailed information on the BBS, and tips on connecting, check out the Cottonwood BBS informational website: http://www.wiskow.hpg.ig.com.br/index.htm -Andrew aka Balzabaar (SysOp) _______________________________________________________ Voc? quer respostas para suas perguntas? Ou voc? sabe muito e quer compartilhar seu conhecimento? Experimente o Yahoo! Respostas ! http://br.answers.yahoo.com/ Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list From vaxorcist at googlemail.com Fri Dec 8 10:44:15 2006 From: vaxorcist at googlemail.com (vaxorcist) Date: 8 Dec 2006 08:44:15 -0800 Subject: Wanted: Pertec-to-Qbus Tape Controller; RLV12 RL02 Controller Message-ID: <1165596255.070535.261820@l12g2000cwl.googlegroups.com> Help! I need a Pertec-to-QBus Tape Controller for my Cipher F880 tape drive. Any make & model will do: - DEC TSV05 controller M7196 - Emulex TC & QT series - Dilog DQ series - ... Furthermore I'd like to have an RLV12 RL02 Disk Controller (M8061). Will swap for other QBus boards or pay as much as a hobbyist can afford. Regards Ulli From jrr at flippers.com Fri Dec 8 12:45:14 2006 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 10:45:14 -0800 Subject: Pro-Log 1702 programmer in BC, Canada? In-Reply-To: <474C8379.5020506@compsys.to> References: <474C8379.5020506@compsys.to> Message-ID: Someone from this group, located here in BC, had called me a month ago about his Pro-Log Eprom programmer that did 1702s. I would like to get in touch with him as I do not have his phone number. Thanks, John :-#)# From root at parse.com Fri Dec 8 14:46:26 2006 From: root at parse.com (Robert Krten) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 15:46:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: F/S PDP-11/34 CAD$100 Local pickup only Kanata/ON/Canada [SOLD] Message-ID: <200612082046.kB8KkQVE096238@amd64.ott.parse.com> My goodness that was fast :-) The cabinet is still available... Cheers, -RK Forwarded message: > From cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 8 09:36:31 2006 > From: Robert Krten > Message-Id: <200612081417.kB8EH8ci082567 at amd64.ott.parse.com> > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 09:17:08 -0500 (EST) > X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL6] > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.86.2, > clamav-milter version 0.86 on keith.ezwind.net > X-Virus-Status: Clean > X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=4.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO > autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 > X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on keith.ezwind.net > X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 08 Dec 2006 08:33:20 -0600 > Subject: F/S PDP-11/34 CAD$100 Local pickup only Kanata/ON/Canada > X-BeenThere: cctech at classiccmp.org > X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 > Precedence: list > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > List-Unsubscribe: , > > List-Archive: > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Subscribe: , > > Sender: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > Errors-To: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > > > Hi folks, > > I've decided that my PDP-11/34 is not part of my core collection, and that > I really won't have time to do anything intelligent with it. Therefore, > I'm selling it for CAD$100, local pickup in Kanata/ON/Canada only > (will not ship). Pictures, module inventory, and contact info: > > www.parse.com/~museum/pdp11/pdp1134/index.html > > The pictured cabinet is available separately (CAD$100, same terms). > > (The Gandalf X.25 mux shown in the cabinet has been scrapped already.) > > Cheers, > -RK -- Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices, http://www.parse.com/resume.html Wanted: DEC minis: http://www.parse.com/~museum/admin/wanted.html From mnusa2 at hotmail.com Sat Dec 9 06:01:25 2006 From: mnusa2 at hotmail.com (Matti Nummi) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 14:01:25 +0200 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases Message-ID: I have a list of tapes of which I have little knowledge. Currently I cannot (easily) read these tapes. Is there anything of interest. I think they are all for RICS. Here are texts from labels: Text1 Text2 Text3 Copyright AQ-FP14D-BN ME71826 DECNET MVMS V4 NET F/FUNC TK5 DEC 1987 AQ-FX23D-BN ME93124 DNET/SNA GTWY VMS V1.5 TK50 DEC 1989 AQ-ND04A-BE ME2821 DNET/SNA GWY DECSA V1.5 BIN TK50 MANDATORY UPDATE TK50 DEC 1989 AQ-JE99A-BE ME103961 DNET/SNA GWY MGT V2.0 BINTK50 DEC 1988 AQ-JE86A-BK ME105813 DNET/SNA GWY-ST V1.0 BIN TK50 DEC 1988 AQ-FW79E-BE ME86562 MR VMSMAIL GTWY V3.1 BIN TK50 DEC 1988 AQ-JB02C-BE ME71381 MR X.400 GTWY V2.0 BIN TK50 DEC 1988 AQ-JB02D-BE ME84127 MR X.400 GTWY V2.1 BIN TK50 DEC 1988 AQ-FX44D-BN ME93622 SNA GWY MQT-DESCA V1.5 BNTK50 DEC 1989 AQ-GJ04B-BN ME71876 SNA VMS API V2.2 BIN TK50 DEC 1988 AQ-GJ04C-BE ME107116 SNA VMS API V2.3 BIN TK50 DEC 1989 AQ-FX37G-BE ME9002 VAX P.S.I. V4.0 BIN TK50 DEC 1988 AQ-FX37H-BE ME136049 VAX P.S.I. V4.3 BIN TK50 DEC 1990 AQ-FP58C-BN ME00028 VMS LIC KEY BIN TK50 DEC 1986 AQ-LX08C-BE 000MRB9823 VMS V5.1 BIN TK50 MAJOR UPDATE DEC 1989 AQ-LX08D-BE ME101980 VMS V5.1-1 BIN TK50 MAINTENANCE UPDATE DEC 1989 AQ-NB26A-BE ME4010 VMS V5.1-B BIN TK50 BINARY DEC 1989 AQ-LX08F-BE ME608 VMS V5.3-1 BIN TK50 DEC 1990 AQ-JP22F-BE ME151440B VMS V5.4 BIN TK50 1/2 BINARY DEC 1990 AQ-LC99C-BE ME4020 VMS V5.4 BIN TK50 2/2 S/A BKUP - DECWINDOWS DEC 1990 AQ-NJ58B-BE ME999A VMS V5.4 BIN TK50 WARRANTY MANDATORY UPDATE DEC 1990 AQ-FX08H-BE ME1008B VMS V5.4-1 BIN TK50 DEC 1990 AQ-PG7SA-BE ME27000C VMS V5.4-2 BIN TK50 1/1 DEC 1991 AQ-LQ18A-BE ME84679 VOTS V2.0 BIN TK50 DEC 1988 _________________________________________________________________ Nyt l?yd?t etsim?si tiedot nopeasti niin koneeltasi kuin netist?. http://toolbar.msn.fi From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Dec 9 07:45:27 2006 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 13:45:27 -0000 Subject: ARC boards Message-ID: <004701c71b98$490e4780$0200a8c0@p2deskto> I have a quantity of ARC(E) Ltd. boards, from a complex calculator, or small computer. They are in CHesham, Bucks, UK, collection only. A small donation would be welcome, but I'm not that bothered. There are a couple of largish boxes of the things. They go for scrap in acouple of weeks, if not claimed. Jim. Please see our website: www.g1jbg.co.uk From jclang at notms.net Sat Dec 9 08:02:01 2006 From: jclang at notms.net (joseph c lang) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 09:02:01 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45792AAC.24232.378355B4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <06120809063000.22304@bell> <45792AAC.24232.378355B4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <06120909020101.22591@bell> On Friday 08 December 2006 12:04, you wrote: > On 8 Dec 2006 at 9:06, joseph c lang wrote: > > I have a pair of teac fd55gfr (5.25 DSDD) drives running on a Monolithic > > systems Z80 multibus board. I built a small board to handle the connector > > difference. I used an AVR to generate the missing motor on signal. > > It looks at the drive select signals and asserts motor on if any drive is > > selected. It deasserts motor on after 15 seconds of no drive selected. > > I guess I AM showing my age. My first impulse would have been to use > a 555--and the same for synthesizing a READY* signal if the drive > had no jumper to provide one. > > Although using an AVR or PIC is also a great idea--just never thought > of using an MCU for such a simple job. Geezer's disease, I guess. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Actually My first draft was a 555. By the time all the requirements were met, the component count had gotten out of hand. 7420,555,7438,handfull of descretes... a single 20 pin package a crystal and a transistor didn't seem like overkill. And it would handle the creeping feature bloat My projects suffer from ;^) joe From erik at baigar.de Sat Dec 9 09:04:20 2006 From: erik at baigar.de (Erik Baigar) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 16:04:20 +0100 (MET) Subject: Data General Dasher D1 - pinout information... In-Reply-To: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear folklorists, recently I got hands on a "Data General Dasher D1", DGC Part number DGC 002 005116. Today I roestored it and analyzed how it works. For those interested, here a short description: (a) PCB made by Keytronic Corp. KTC in 10/1979, Part. No. A65-01538-01. (b) On this are some well known Chips (7474, 7437 74123, ...) and a CPU labeled 30293E-003 20-04592-014. (c) On the PCB is a 20pin PCB-connector and according to my analysis this is a parallel port where the Dasher directly transmits ASCII. (d) Protocol and pinout: 1,2 : GND 3,4: +5V (approx 350-400mA). 5: /Strobe (a low-pulse of 1us signals that new data is valid on the parallel output lines D0-D7). Data is applied approx 5us before the strobe appears. 6: N.C. 7: D7, 8:D0, 9:D5, 10: D2, 11: D3, 12: D4, 13: D1, 14: D6, 15-17: N.C. 18-20: Outputs of still unkonwn purpose (originate from the 7437). Maybe related to the BREAK key - this is the only key which does not generate an ASCII-Code and a strobe pulse. Maybe this helps someone who wants to restore/debug/analyze/reuse one of these units... Best regards, Erik. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Dec 9 09:11:25 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 07:11:25 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <200612081915.kB8JFH32035149@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: >From: "Bob Bradlee" > >Stiction is mostly caused by a breakdown in the lubricant. > >Over simplified, oil turns to varnish or tar. > Hi I have several friends that worked at Seagate when they had problems of stiction. It was not a lubricant problem. It was caused by the surfaces being too smooth. When to really smooth surfaces sit together for a long time, the air is squeezed out. Once the surfaces really touch, there is a thing called molecular adhesion. Anyone that has worked with guage blocks is familair with this. Seagate fixed the problem by roughing the surfaces enough so that they didn't quite sqeeze out enough air to adhere. The surfaces are lubed but not with petrolium greases so they don't break down to tars. As I recall, they used some type of synthetic oil and only in tiny amounts. It was just to keep the surfaces apart while it spun up. After that, the head was flying and no longer made contact. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC.? Get a free 90-day trial! http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/?href=http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/?sc_cid=msn_hotmail From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Dec 9 09:36:26 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 09:36:26 -0600 Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <457AD7FA.9090102@brutman.com> Jay West wrote: > I have one of the parallel port to ethernet devices... a Xircom. I > wonder if anyone ever reverse engineered the user interface to the > parallel port for it :) > > Jay > Somebody tried - they were working on a Linux device driver for it, and you can search to find the results. In a nutshell, Xircom never released the specs, and it was too much of a pain to reverse engineer. Hence it is not supported by Linux. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat Dec 9 10:13:08 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:13:08 -0500 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200612091615.kB9GFNIl089075@keith.ezwind.net> The problems i saw were with old drives that ran 24/7 and were shut down to be moved to a new location. The problem occured when they cooled down. Once warmed back up, they could be powered down and back up as long as they did not cool down again. These were systems that had 30k -> 50k+ hours on them in 24/7 operation. I always figured it was bearings or bearing related lub problems. I have lost track of the number of cheep power supply and cpu fans that required a spin to get start again after they had cooled down. In the late 90's the cheep cpu fans they were putting in clones would last between 15k -> 20k hours. Changing fans kept some small service shops in business for several years around the turn of the century. I had never thought of the platters and heads being a cause of stiction. In a crude attempt to put things back on topic :-) My friend David had a stiction problem last year on a 3344 disk pack running on an IBM System 3. The head retracted to park and stuck to a very old and very soft rubber home stop. It did not release and come ready untill pushed from behind with a stick, via the inspection hole, to get it moveing again. Stiction comes in many forms from numerious reasons ..... Just some random thoughts Bob Bradlee On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 07:11:25 -0800, dwight elvey wrote: >>From: "Bob Bradlee" >> >>Stiction is mostly caused by a breakdown in the lubricant. >> >>Over simplified, oil turns to varnish or tar. >> >Hi >I have several friends that worked at Seagate when they had >problems of stiction. It was not a lubricant problem. It was >caused by the surfaces being too smooth. When to really >smooth surfaces sit together for a long time, the air is squeezed >out. Once the surfaces really touch, there is a thing called >molecular adhesion. >Anyone that has worked with guage blocks is familair with >this. >Seagate fixed the problem by roughing the surfaces enough >so that they didn't quite sqeeze out enough air to adhere. >The surfaces are lubed but not with petrolium greases >so they don't break down to tars. As I recall, they used some >type of synthetic oil and only in tiny amounts. It was just >to keep the surfaces apart while it spun up. After that, >the head was flying and no longer made contact. >Dwight >_________________________________________________________________ >All-in-one security and maintenance for your PC. Get a free 90-day trial! >http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000002msn/direct/01/? href=http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwlo0050000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://www.windowsonecare.com/? sc_cid=msn_hotmail From feedle at feedle.net Sat Dec 9 10:22:14 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 09:22:14 -0700 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! In-Reply-To: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> References: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1A90F2EA-E716-4CB7-AE56-F66B2BDD9BDE@feedle.net> On Dec 8, 2006, at 1:59 AM, Andrew Wiskow wrote: > Cottonwood BBS is back online and operational! > > After much trial and error, I've got all the right > pieces put together... So dust off your old modem, > and give Cottonwood BBS a call. It's presently the > only known Commodore dial-up BBS in existence! Andrew: Bless your heart, but here's a few pointers on what might make it work better. First off, for 99% of us in the universe nowadays, C64Term for the PC (as suggested on the website) simply won't work. Pretty much every computer sold in the last 10 years is equipped with a Winmodem, and real "hardware" modems have been impossible to find for the last 5. I personally don't know of a better solution, other than to use a C64 emulator and bind to whatever modem people have. I don't know what the answer is, but hopefully somebody can figure out a Windows- compatible solution. Which brings me to my next suggestion. I know you're trying to "keep it real" with the CBM 1670 1200bps modem, but as you point out, many modern modems have problems working with it. Oddly enough, one of the reason why is because many 1200bps modems don't do a modern negotiation, with the 2100Hz tone in front of it, they just answer with the Bell 2225 Hz tone. You can observe this: if you call a modern modem, it answers and plays a lower pitched tone before a higher pitched tone: that's the 2100 Hz tone followed by the 2225 Hz. The reason the 2100 Hz tone is important is many telco facilities (and even some VoIP ones) listen for that tone, and if they hear it will make a "best effort" to minimize noise cancellation and other stuff to make it easier for modems to communicate. Also, there's modulations on that lower pitched tone that give modern modems a clue as to what protocols the reception modem can support. This is important. These features weren't really commonly available until 2400bps modems became commonplace. My suggestion would be to acquire an RS-232 interface for your C-64, and use a modern modem.. even if you lock it at 1200 or 2400bps on the serial side (since the C64 and many BBS programs were notorious for not working much above 2400). Back in the day, few "serious" BBS hobbyists (even in the C64 camp) used Commodore modems for running a BBS: they had a number of "known faults" that made them poor choices. (Don't feel bad, I ran my first BBS on a 1660 [!] for a number of months) Another suggestion you might want to pass along to people connecting is to disable all the error correction and compression. This is probably why people aren't seeing the graphics mode prompt (as you hint to on your site). I don't know the fairly standard AT commands to make this happen, but they shouldn't be difficult to find. The "modern modem" suggestion would help here, as well: since it would support all the new-fangled compression modes, negotiation would be quicker and completed before the modem raised CD. Lastly, and this is more of a debatably helpful suggestion: have you considered just running the BBS on an emulator? My reasons for asking this are serious. First off, C64 hardware was notoriously flaky as a BBS platform when the hardware was new. In the fairly short lifetime of my C64-based BBS, I went through two power supplies, a number of disk drives, and countless diskettes (even on my low-traffic BBS, I observed that if I didn't swap out the floppies once a week, they'd develop errors). Now that the components of your BBS are approaching (or even exceeding, unless you have a fairly new vintage C64) 20 years old, they are increasingly fragile and even more likely to break. It was one thing in 1985 to replace a VIC-1541, and I'd hate to think if you're running something like an SFD-1001 what you'd have to go through to replace it. Additionally, emulation would allow people to use Telnet to connect, and would allow those of us with no functional landline (believe it or not, there's now a lot of people who depend solely on broadband- delivered VoIP and cellular exclusively) to play the home game. Just some suggestions. Otherwise, good effort, and as soon as I figure out how to get a CBMSCII terminal emulator to work on the Macintosh, I'll be calling! From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Dec 9 10:22:50 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:22:50 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <457A1185.6020700@mdrconsult.com> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> <457A1185.6020700@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <457AE2DA.5090509@gmail.com> Doc Shipley wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> I'm beginning to wonder if there's something in the water or food >> supply that's impairing the mental functioning of a good chunk of the >> population of the planet. Or maybe it's global warming - that seems to >> be the in-vogue 'problem' at the moment. > > Google "aspartame Donald Rumsfeld". Be sure your tinfoil hat is > properly tuned before reading. > > Seriously, though, the stuff is amazingly toxic, and proven psychoactive. I usually have a seriously bad reaction to it. I have to be really careful. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 9 10:23:53 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 11:23:53 -0500 Subject: magic-1 boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 8, 2006, at 6:25 PM, David Griffith wrote: > I'm attempting to build a Magic-1 using gEDA. Would anyone be > interested > in a set of boards for the Magic-1? I'm just pondering the idea right > now. Yes, absolutely, no doubt about it! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 9 10:39:18 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 11:39:18 -0500 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> References: <4579B23C.95AD9FC3@rain.org> Message-ID: <057107DB-314E-4D2D-976A-68666132E4BC@neurotica.com> On Dec 8, 2006, at 1:43 PM, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I've read several replies indicating that the drive needs to be > taken apart. > People have also advocated just "hitting" the drive to break the > stiction. > > Holding the drive and giving it a quick twist around the spindle > axis has always > worked for me and avoids potential problems with disassembly or > damage. > > Has anyone seen stiction on the IDE or later drives? The only > stiction I've seen > has always been on the 5 1/4" MFM/RLL type drives, and probably > ESDI/SCSI/SASI > as well although my experience is limited on those drives. > > Something else I've noticed is that if a drive has stiction, that > stiction will > return after the drive sets for a while again. Anyone know what > actually causes > stiction? The story I heard "back in the day" (which was at work, from a service bulletin of some sort, so I treat it with some credibility) is that designers chose the spindle lubricant unwisely in some models of drives, and it spun out onto the platters a bit and gummed up. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 9 10:40:45 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 11:40:45 -0500 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <200612090159.kB91xRUP012041@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200612090159.kB91xRUP012041@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Dec 8, 2006, at 8:59 PM, Brad Parker wrote: >> Something else I've noticed is that if a drive has stiction, that >> stiction >> will return after the drive sets for a while again. Anyone know >> what actually >> causes stiction? > > my dim recollection (back in the day I did actually talk to people > from > rodime, lapine, nec, etc about 10 & 20mb 3" st-506 drives) is that it > was combination of the media plating, coating on the platter and the > heads themselves. > > since there is no landing zone the heads set down on the media. if > the > media was very smooth and the lubricant too thick, the heads would > glue > themselves to the media. > > I suspect there is slightly more to it than that, but it's been a > while > for me. I know the firmware often did a lot to try and mitigate the > problem but I think in the end it was changes in lubricant/coating > which > made it go away. Ahh yes that corresponds exactly with my memory of the situation as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 9 10:45:29 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 08:45:29 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <06120909020101.22591@bell> References: , <45792AAC.24232.378355B4@cclist.sydex.com>, <06120909020101.22591@bell> Message-ID: <457A77A9.27361.2129158@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Dec 2006 at 9:02, joseph c lang wrote: > Actually My first draft was a 555. By the time all the requirements were met, > the component count had gotten out of hand. 7420,555,7438,handfull > of descretes... a single 20 pin package a crystal and a transistor didn't > seem like overkill. > And it would handle the creeping feature bloat My projects suffer from ;^) I happened to mention this to a customer yesterday who sells computerized scales and the like. His comment was that a PIC was very competitive with a 555, when one considered the external discrete component count and glue--although he admitted that a number of his products still use lots of 555s. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 9 10:55:44 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 11:55:44 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Dec 8, 2006, at 5:23 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm beginning to wonder if there's something in the water or food > supply that's impairing the mental functioning of a good chunk of > the population of the planet. I've wondered about that myself quite a bit in the past year or three. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 9 11:18:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 09:18:32 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: References: <200612081915.kB8JFH32035149@keith.ezwind.net>, Message-ID: <457A7F68.30292.230D317@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Dec 2006 at 7:11, dwight elvey wrote: > I have several friends that worked at Seagate when they had > problems of stiction. It was not a lubricant problem. It was > caused by the surfaces being too smooth. When to really > smooth surfaces sit together for a long time, the air is squeezed > out. Once the surfaces really touch, there is a thing called > molecular adhesion. > Anyone that has worked with guage blocks is familair with > this. That's the story that I got from the Seagate marketing engineer when I complained about new ST-225's occasionally showing this problem. . However, Wikipedia states that the problem really is heat and lubricants: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction So, the moral is "never trust a marketing guy", I guess. Cheers, Chuck From alhartman at yahoo.com Sat Dec 9 11:25:04 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 12:25:04 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612082145.kB8LimV8097268@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612082145.kB8LimV8097268@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <457AF170.5040605@yahoo.com> Dave, Seems perfectly fine and reasonable to me. You are dealing with a troll. I'm sure the KIM-1 is a fine computer, but it's not terribly well known except to early computing aficionados. I think you should ignore him. Your Apple II page is fine. The text is fine. It's truthful and relevant to the history of the Apple II. And thanks for providing the resources and great computing you do! Regards, Al Hartman Phila, PA > From: "Dave Dunfield" > > Hi guys, > > I've been having an esclating correspondance with a chap named > "Murray Balascak" (anyone know him?) - who contacted me regarding > his displeasure with my mention of the Apple-1 on the Apple-II page of > my site - here is what I have posted as part of my introdiuction to the > Apple-II: > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > In 1976, Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs formed the Apple Computer Company, > and built a home computer they called the "Apple 1" in their garage. Although it > required the users to provide their own cabinet, power supply, keyboard and > video monitor, it didn't require a separate terminal, and a simple BASIC interpreter > could be loaded with an optional cassette interface. Although it required a fairly > technical user to complete the system and make it usable, about 200 Apple 1s > were sold in the first year. > > The following year (1977), Apple refined the design, providing a keyboard and > power supply and packaging the machine in a attractive low-profile plastic cabinet > with simple connections for the video monitor and tape storage. Now - anyone > who could plug two connectors together could use this computer. The result, called > "Apple 2" was one of the most successful early personal computers, and sold > many thousands of units. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > In Mr. Balascaks first correspondance, he stated that the KIM-1 was a far > better machine than the Apple-1, asked if I had succumbed to "the relentless > revisionism of the brand zealots?", and demanded that I "correct the above > reference to show the machine's irrelevance". > > In his second correspondance, he stated that I am spreading "Apple > propaganda", again stated that the KIM-1 was better, sold in higher > quantities and cheaper (I still do not know what the KIM-1 has to do > with an Apple-II page). > > In his third correspondance he acqused me of "posting lies and being > worse than useless by corrupting history into fiction". Again, he stated > that the KIM-1 was a far better machine and much cheaper. > > In his last email, he indicated that he believes I am responsable for the > degradation of the internet and the reason that it cannot be trusted as > a source of information. > > I don't know where this is coming from - I believe my reference to the > Apple-1 is accurate considering it's brevity - Apple was formed in 1976 > and operated out of Jobs basement. The Apple-1 was sold through the > homebrew computer club as well as a few of stores, and although I do > not have confirmed numbers of sales, I believe it was around 200 > units. > > It was never my intention to make a page about the Apple-1 (I don't have > one, and I only feature systems on my site which are in my collection)... > I believe at some point someone asked why I didn't mention the Apple-1 > so I added this one paragraph as part of the Apple-II history. I have no > other references to the Apple-1 (at least that I can recall) on my site. > > In all of my responses to him, I indicated that I am unwilling to change > the site based on the hearsay of one individual, especially when that > person has an apparent (in my opinion based on correspondance > received) bias for or against the material being questioned, however I > would be happy to revise the site in response to any documented > facts/evidence he can provide that the material I have is incorrect. > > All I have received in return is statements about how much better the > KIM-1 was (I make no such comparisons on my site), how expensive > the Apple-1 and Apple-II were (I post no such prices on my site), and > rants about a website that apparently lists Woz as the "inventor of > the single-board computer" (I make no such claim on my site). > > I should probably just ignore it - but the fact that I have been accused > of lying and deliberatly posting misinformation is disturbing to me ... > So - I throw it to the list - As a background statement showing that > Apple existed and sold a predecessor in small volumes for a time > before the Apple-II ... Is my posting above non-factual? If so, in > what way, and can you provide supporting documentation? > > Please keep in mind that I do not wish to post a page about the Apple-1, > only a single paragraph as a way of introducing the guys who built > the Apple-2. > > Regards, > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > > > ------------------------------ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 9 12:29:38 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:29:38 -0700 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <457AE2DA.5090509@gmail.com> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> <457A1185.6020700@mdrconsult.com> <457AE2DA.5090509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <457B0092.6070701@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Google "aspartame Donald Rumsfeld". Be sure your tinfoil hat is >> properly tuned before reading. >> >> Seriously, though, the stuff is amazingly toxic, and proven >> psychoactive. > > > I usually have a seriously bad reaction to it. I have to be really > careful. I guess I better stick to organic paper hats then! > Peace... Sridhar > > . > From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat Dec 9 12:30:35 2006 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 10:30:35 -0800 Subject: A 1935 example of the internet. Message-ID: <0b8401c71bc0$2e32a410$6601a8c0@downstairs2> Hugo Gernsback started the magazines that became Popular Electronics and Radio Electronics. He was known for his predictions on the future of electronics. In the February 1935 issue of Radio Craft (later Radio Electronics) he describes in some detail a future home radio that includes television and electronic delivery of the newspaper. It appears to allow two way communication. There is a copy for sale on ePay that shows the cover and some internal pages. RADIO CRAFT 1935 MAGAZINE PREDICTS FUTURE RADIO in 1950 Item number: 170058678360 Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 9 12:32:03 2006 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 11:32:03 -0700 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <457B0123.1000407@jetnet.ab.ca> > I've wondered about that myself quite a bit in the past year or three. Sales of Macdonald's burgers/fries seem to be the only thing that comes to mind. > -Dave > From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Dec 9 12:35:38 2006 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 12:35:38 -0600 Subject: KIM-1 and Apple I Message-ID: <000001c71bc0$d32e82e0$176fa8c0@obie> If you haven't read the previously un-published Chapter 1.5 of Brian Bagnall's Commodore history, take a look here - http://www.commodorebook.com/contents/ch001.5%20TIM-KIM.pdf . No doubt the KIM was a significant and capable system but, IMHO, the real difference was intent - Chuck Peddle saw the KIM as a way to entice engineers into trying and buying his processor; Woz saw the Apple I as a true personal computer, though obviously that had a different meaning in 1976 than it did in 1981 or 2006. The KIM-1 had a tremendous impact (relatively speaking) because it provided a working system (or subsystem) with a common and reliable hardware configuration to 100s/1000s of people. The result was an early critical mass encouraging third party vendors (hardware and software) and the development of an enthusiastic user community. The Apple I never sold in any appreciable volume and may have been most important as an "enabler", validating Woz - to himself! - as a capable designer and validating Jobs - to himself! - as a visionary, though it would seem that Paul Terrell (and certainly Mike Markula) shared that vision as well. Terrell's financial commitment to Apple allowed Woz to build something much closer to his view of what he wanted - the Apple ][. My ][ cents - Jack -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 12/8/2006 12:53 PM From wizard at voyager.net Sat Dec 9 12:50:29 2006 From: wizard at voyager.net (Warren Wolfe) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 13:50:29 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1165690229.6751.10.camel@linux.site> On Sat, 2006-12-09 at 11:55 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 8, 2006, at 5:23 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > I'm beginning to wonder if there's something in the water or food > > supply that's impairing the mental functioning of a good chunk of > > the population of the planet. > > I've wondered about that myself quite a bit in the past year or > three. Likewise. In all seriousness, I think it has to do with continual exposure to flagrantly biased information. It's as if we have built in BS (bollocks for you Brits) filters, and after a while they get clogged with all the near-information they have to strain out. Dunno... The effect is certainly a "My side is always right and your side is always wrong" type of false dichotomy. It drives me batty to deal with this as often as I do. I recall that most people were reasonable twenty years ago, if not well-informed and brilliant. A point could be made to them, and acknowledged, and they entertained the idea that their side, while right for the most part, had occasional "bad" spots... but, not any more. Now, all you kids get off my lawn! You know, to drag this a little bit on-topic, this does NOT bode well for anything like new software development, or interest in older equipment and software. Simpler software to assist in decisions examines the simplest of facts, and reports on them. It would take modern capacities and speeds to massage the data so that it always comes to the pre-ordained conclusion, or to lose the data if it doesn't match "how things are" according to the user. Of course, DIS (Deliberately Ignorant Software) could well be the next "killer ap" that will take over the world. Peace, Warren E. Wolfe wizard at voyager.net From rcini at optonline.net Sat Dec 9 12:50:39 2006 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 13:50:39 -0500 Subject: KIM-1 and Apple I In-Reply-To: <000001c71bc0$d32e82e0$176fa8c0@obie> Message-ID: <005901c71bc2$ec25e3e0$6401a8c0@bbrrooqpbzx6tz> This is very true. If you hear Woz speak, he talks about how the Apple I was the stepping stone and the II was what he really wanted to build form the beginning. In fact, He said that he designed the ][ from scratch in comparison to the I so he could achieve his goal. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ Web site: http://www.altair32.com/ /***************************************************/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jack Rubin Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 1:36 PM To: Classic Computer List Subject: KIM-1 and Apple I If you haven't read the previously un-published Chapter 1.5 of Brian Bagnall's Commodore history, take a look here - http://www.commodorebook.com/contents/ch001.5%20TIM-KIM.pdf . No doubt the KIM was a significant and capable system but, IMHO, the real difference was intent - Chuck Peddle saw the KIM as a way to entice engineers into trying and buying his processor; Woz saw the Apple I as a true personal computer, though obviously that had a different meaning in 1976 than it did in 1981 or 2006. The KIM-1 had a tremendous impact (relatively speaking) because it provided a working system (or subsystem) with a common and reliable hardware configuration to 100s/1000s of people. The result was an early critical mass encouraging third party vendors (hardware and software) and the development of an enthusiastic user community. The Apple I never sold in any appreciable volume and may have been most important as an "enabler", validating Woz - to himself! - as a capable designer and validating Jobs - to himself! - as a visionary, though it would seem that Paul Terrell (and certainly Mike Markula) shared that vision as well. Terrell's financial commitment to Apple allowed Woz to build something much closer to his view of what he wanted - the Apple ][. My ][ cents - Jack -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 12/8/2006 12:53 PM From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 9 12:53:59 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 10:53:59 -0800 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <20061209001341.17205.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200612082145.kB8LimVA097268@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <20061209001341.17205.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <457A95C7.15768.288380B@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Dec 2006 at 19:13, Ken Seefried wrote: > The following might come as a suprise: There are trolls on the internet. > There are psychos on the internet. There are irrational, obsessive, > socially retarded, self-important fanatics on the net. If you want to see REAL trolls, just check any of the newsfeeds (e.g. Yahoo) and their accompanying discussion forums. Some of the stuff posted is clearly intended to offend. Treat those posters in the same manner that one might treat a 3 year old who notices that he gets attention when he removes his pants in public. Curiously, most trolls DO seem to be male. --Chuck From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Dec 9 13:09:24 2006 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 13:09:24 -0600 Subject: KIM and SSM 6502 - Chuck Guzis In-Reply-To: <200612091800.kB9I0Yw9013718@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001c71bc5$8a8ea560$176fa8c0@obie> Responding to Chuck Guzis - > > (BTW, I still have a 2708 EPROM burner for a KIM-1 if anyone wants > it.) yes, please, if still available! > I'm trying to remember if it was Solid State Music who > offered the S- 100 6502 board. Does anyone recall? > I don't think SSM ever did a 6502 S100 board - the only one I know about is from CRGS in Pennsylvania. Jack -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 12/8/2006 12:53 PM From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Dec 9 15:07:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 21:07:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <4579A479.29672.395F241A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 8, 6 05:44:25 pm Message-ID: > > On 9 Dec 2006 at 1:19, Tony Duell wrote: > > > No, I was wrong. According to the manual, the 'ready' signal depends on a > > clock signal that comes from a special track on one of the platters, > > picked up by a fixed head. The basic procedure if the drive won't go > > ready is to look at the output of this head's amplifier, if that's > > missing/incorrect to troubleshoot or replace the read/write PCB (and if > > that doesn't get it back, then the fault is inside the HDA and is not > > field repairable). If the output of the clock head amplifier is OK, then > > therer's a fault on the control PCB. > > Thanks, it's enough to get me started. I'll let you know if I'm > unsuccessful. OK, here are the actual procesdures from the manual : Check the DC volages at the control PCB J6 connector (to the read/write PCB) Pin J : +5V Pin E : -5V Pin 22 : +24V Pin B : +12V (If any of those are misisng/incorrect, there's a procedure to check them back through the actuator PCB, etc, but I think you can manage that...) OK, on to the test you need : Drive Not Ready. It assumes the power voltages are OK, and that the disk is rotating. Notes : 1) Ready indication will appea as a logical 1 on TP28 of the control PCB. 2) Ready will not become active for 1.5 minutes after AC and DC power are applied 3) The drive must be selected befroe Ready is available at the interface connector Test 1 : Check clock track amplitude at control PCB TP9 (must be more than 1.5V) Test 1 OK? No : Replace Read/Wrtie PCB [1] Test 1 OK ? No : Problem with clock head -- not field repairable Yes : go to test 2 Yes : Got to test 2 Test 2 : Check TP5 on control PCB for TTL level 500ns puleses every 2.2us Test 2 OK ? No : Replace control PCB [2] Yes : go to test 3 Test 3 : Check TP27 on control PCB for TTL level square wave of 70ns +/-5ns (14.2MHz) Test 3 OK ? No : Replace control PCB [3] Yes : go to test 4 Test 4 : Check TP26 of control PCB for a TTL level pulse 1.1us duration every 2oms (Index) Test 4 OK ? No : Replace control PCB [4] Yes : Test done ARD#'s notes [1] Check circuitry round 6B and 6D on the read/write PCB, these being the clock head amplifiers [2] Check round 2A and 1B(section b) on the control PCB. [3] This is the output of the phase-lock oscillator. Check Q3, 3D (oscillator), 2B, Q1, Q2 (phase detector), etc [4] Check counter 2E, register 1G, and associated gates -tony From legalize at xmission.com Sat Dec 9 15:23:02 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 14:23:02 -0700 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 09 Dec 2006 05:57:54 +0000. <457A5062.2030100@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In article <457A5062.2030100 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > Richard wrote: > > Sometimes one of them decides that because you won't escalate the > > flamewar, they need to make a wikipedia page where they bash you > > there. > > And usually a Wikipedia admin puts said page on Request For Deletion status. They did it by hiding it in a "criticisms" section of an existing page, but if you read between the lines its just one guy ragging on me with about 15% of the facts of any situation where he's bashing me. If I attempt to correct it on Wikipedia, then that's just taking his flame bait once again and turning a Wikipedia page into a "he said she said" kind of discussion. But as I say, the person in question did this only because I wouldn't take his flamebait on a discussion thread anymore. To respond in wikipedia is just feeding his desire to piss me off and nothing more. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From alhartman at yahoo.com Sat Dec 9 15:31:47 2006 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 16:31:47 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 40, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: <200612081504.kB8F4YqA089749@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612081504.kB8F4YqA089749@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <457B2B43.4030906@yahoo.com> If you can deal with Mailorder: http://www.affordablesurplus.com/syncom_floppy_diskette.asp And, Athana still seems to be selling them as well: http://www.athana.com/html/diskette.html Regards, Al Phila, PA > From: Warren Wolfe > > Anyway, diskettes are going the way of the dodo. I have several > older machines, and spent a good part of the last two days trying, > unsuccessfully, to find 5-1/4 inch diskettes for sale. They simply are > not carried any more. And, I live in the heart of a truly major retail > center -- I've been in EVERY major computer and electronics store, and > many of the minor ones in the last 48 hours. > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 9 15:32:09 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 13:32:09 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: References: <4579A479.29672.395F241A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 8, 6 05:44:25 pm, Message-ID: <457ABAD9.29681.3190231@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Dec 2006 at 21:07, Tony Duell wrote: > OK, here are the actual procesdures from the manual : [snip] Many thanks--I've got your notes safely stashed away. Hopefully it's not the custom controller in the same box... Cheers, Chuck From jim.beacon at ntlworld.com Sat Dec 9 07:02:30 2006 From: jim.beacon at ntlworld.com (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 13:02:30 -0000 Subject: ARC boards Message-ID: <004001c71b92$4a7c8c40$0200a8c0@p2deskto> I have a quantity of ARC(E) Ltd. boards, from a complex calculator, or small computer. They are in CHesham, Bucks, UK, collection only. A small donation would be welcome, but I'm not that bothered. There are a couple of largish boxes of the things. They go for scrap in a couple of weeks, if not claimed. Jim. Please see our website: www.g1jbg.co.uk From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Sat Dec 9 12:12:41 2006 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 12:12:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Dec 08, 2006 02:35:26 PM Message-ID: <200612091812.kB9ICffo020986@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> >I should probably just ignore it - but the fact that I have been accused >of lying and deliberatly posting misinformation is disturbing to me ... >So - I throw it to the list - As a background statement showing that >Apple existed and sold a predecessor in small volumes for a time >before the Apple-II ... Is my posting above non-factual? If so, in >what way, and can you provide supporting documentation? > Hi Dave, there's no reason for this guy to be flying off like he is. Nothing out of line in your entry, and he's probably just a bit eccentric. The only thing I could see factualy (nitpick) wise is (and it has nothing to do with his gripe however): >In 1976, Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs formed the Apple Computer Company, >and built a home computer they called the "Apple 1" in their garage. I would reword it a bit, as it makes it sound like Jobs had a hand in designing the Apple 1, which he did not. Likewise, when they decided to sell it they assembled it in Jobs's parents garage and not "their" garage. Probably something like: "In 1976, Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs formed the Apple Computer Company to sell Wozniak's computer, which they named the "Apple 1". Although it required the users to provide their own cabinet, power supply, keyboard and video monitor, it didn't require a seperate terminal as other computers of the time did. A simple BASIC interpreter could also be loaded with an optional casette interface. Although it required a fairly technical user to complete the system and make it usable, about 200 Apple 1's were assembled in Jobs' garage and sold in the first year." Marty From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 9 17:42:02 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 18:42:02 -0500 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <457A77A9.27361.2129158@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <45792AAC.24232.378355B4@cclist.sydex.com>, <06120909020101.22591@bell> <457A77A9.27361.2129158@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1B47D592-F7C8-4A45-BDA2-842128A65DD3@neurotica.com> On Dec 9, 2006, at 11:45 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Actually My first draft was a 555. By the time all the >> requirements were met, >> the component count had gotten out of hand. 7420,555,7438,handfull >> of descretes... a single 20 pin package a crystal and a transistor >> didn't >> seem like overkill. >> And it would handle the creeping feature bloat My projects suffer >> from ;^) > > I happened to mention this to a customer yesterday who sells > computerized scales and the like. His comment was that a PIC was > very competitive with a 555, when one considered the external > discrete component count and glue--although he admitted that a number > of his products still use lots of 555s. I can see that being the case when you need multiple related pulse trains or something like that...but to replace a single 555, I find this very difficult to believe. I've designed both into commercial products in the last few years...Sure, PICs are super cheap, but 555s in thousand-unit quantities cost less than a dime. As for the discrete components...Assuming you're running the PIC in internal oscillator mode (which saves you a crystal and two capacitors), you need a pullup resistor to MCLR, while a typical 555 oscillator circuit needs one or two resistors and a capacitor...so a capacitor and possible additional resistor. Add in the step of having to program the PIC (and maintain the codebase, documentation, etc)...no way. It seems to me that many of these types of attitudes stem from the "if it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old" mentality that has been adopted by the obedient mass of consumers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 9 17:41:56 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 15:41:56 -0800 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612091812.kB9ICffo020986@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Dec 08, 2006 02:35:26 PM, <200612091812.kB9ICffo020986@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <457AD944.20137.38FD4A9@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Dec 2006 at 12:12, Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: > "In 1976, Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs formed the Apple Computer Company > to sell Wozniak's computer, which they named the "Apple 1". Although it > required the users to provide their own cabinet, power supply, keyboard > and video monitor, it didn't require a seperate terminal as other > computers of the time did. A simple BASIC interpreter could also be > loaded with an optional casette interface. Although it required a fairly > technical user to complete the system and make it usable, about 200 Apple > 1's were assembled in Jobs' garage and sold in the first year." Someone needs to mention that Jobs and Wozniak also got a very sweet deal when they needed venture capital. Within a few years, the picture would change dramatically, with VC's requiring a majority of seats on the corporate board, large shares of the profit pie and veto power on any strategic decision--including seeking more venture capital. By about 1985, VCs had gotten very greedy and probably were responsible for the death of several startups. I was hired as a consultant to VCs for several of them to see what might be salvaged from a tilt-up filled with office furniture and incomplete production inventory. Inevitably it was after the engineering staff had been laid off, so record of any potentially valuable intellectual property ended up in the dumpster. The rest was usually auctioned off. Woz and Jobs were in the right place at the right time. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Dec 9 17:43:50 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 18:43:50 -0500 Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <457AD7FA.9090102@brutman.com> References: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> <457AD7FA.9090102@brutman.com> Message-ID: <7FDADB23-1639-4533-ADA5-6D13E262C90C@neurotica.com> On Dec 9, 2006, at 10:36 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Somebody tried - they were working on a Linux device driver for it, > and you can search to find the results. In a nutshell, Xircom > never released the specs, and it was too much of a pain to reverse > engineer. Hence it is not supported by Linux. I could've sworn Linux supported these at one point, back in the early-mid 1990s. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Dec 9 18:02:05 2006 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 18:02:05 -0600 Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <7FDADB23-1639-4533-ADA5-6D13E262C90C@neurotica.com> References: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> <457AD7FA.9090102@brutman.com> <7FDADB23-1639-4533-ADA5-6D13E262C90C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <457B4E7D.8060307@brutman.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 9, 2006, at 10:36 AM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> Somebody tried - they were working on a Linux device driver for it, >> and you can search to find the results. In a nutshell, Xircom never >> released the specs, and it was too much of a pain to reverse engineer. >> Hence it is not supported by Linux. > > I could've sworn Linux supported these at one point, back in the > early-mid 1990s. > > -Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Cape Coral, FL > > > > http://www.buzzard.me.uk/jonathan/pe3.html Mike From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 9 18:03:54 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 16:03:54 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <1B47D592-F7C8-4A45-BDA2-842128A65DD3@neurotica.com> References: , <457A77A9.27361.2129158@cclist.sydex.com>, <1B47D592-F7C8-4A45-BDA2-842128A65DD3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <457ADE6A.15942.3A3F04B@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Dec 2006 at 18:42, Dave McGuire wrote: > It seems to me that many of these types of attitudes stem from the > "if it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old" mentality that > has been adopted by the obedient mass of consumers. My reaction upon getting my first NE555 was "Isn't that just the most clever thing you've ever seen?--and in an 8 pin DIP, too!" You probably won't see many LS121/123/221s in modern circuits, but the lowly 555 still marches on. Cheers, Chuck From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat Dec 9 18:11:17 2006 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 00:11:17 +0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 40, Issue 14 In-Reply-To: <200612080734.kB87YD5f085222@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612080734.kB87YD5f085222@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <046CB1AC-98AA-4CA0-BD8E-AFB0CABF92F1@microspot.co.uk> On 8 Dec, 2006, at 07:34, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 12:04:28 +1300 > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 40, Issue 15 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Could someone please explain the time warp which allows digest issue 14 to contain replies to messages in digest issue 15? One lister complains about top posting, but it is equally, if not more, confusing to read replies to messages before the message itself, and this happens a LOT. I realise the list is moderated and there will be a lag, but is there any reason the messages cannot be kept in order. Please! Roger Holmes From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 9 19:12:46 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 17:12:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 40, Issue 14 Message-ID: <110016.4880.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> I think the answer is to unsubscribe yourself from cctech and subscribe to cctalk. Posting is nearly realtime. I for one an not afraid of unmoderated lists. --- cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > On 8 Dec, 2006, at 07:34, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 22 > > Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 12:04:28 +1300 > > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 40, Issue 15 > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Message-ID: > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > Could someone please explain the time warp which allows digest issue > 14 to > contain replies to messages in digest issue 15? > > One lister complains about top posting, but it is equally, if not > more, confusing > to read replies to messages before the message itself, and this > happens a LOT. > > I realise the list is moderated and there will be a lag, but is there > any reason the > messages cannot be kept in order. Please! > > Roger Holmes > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 9 19:18:35 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 17:18:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 40, Issue 14 Message-ID: <84742.11711.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Furthermorf, receiving individual posts could help too. Its always a crap shoot for me when deciding if its really worth my while to open a re:digest #... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Dec 9 19:44:46 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 20:44:46 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> <4579E5E0.8010508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <457B668E.9070503@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Dec 8, 2006, at 5:23 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> I'm beginning to wonder if there's something in the water or food >> supply that's impairing the mental functioning of a good chunk of the >> population of the planet. > > I've wondered about that myself quite a bit in the past year or three. I don't think it's that simple. I think there's a genetic disorder going around called "congenital idiocy". There should be a foundation funding research for a cure. Peace... Sridhar From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Dec 9 21:09:20 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 22:09:20 -0500 Subject: Stiction Message-ID: <01C71BDE.E8130A00@mse-d03> ----------------Original Message: Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 09:18:32 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Stiction To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <457A7F68.30292.230D317 at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 9 Dec 2006 at 7:11, dwight elvey wrote: > I have several friends that worked at Seagate when they had > problems of stiction. It was not a lubricant problem. It was > caused by the surfaces being too smooth. When to really > smooth surfaces sit together for a long time, the air is squeezed > out. Once the surfaces really touch, there is a thing called > molecular adhesion. > Anyone that has worked with guage blocks is familair with > this. That's the story that I got from the Seagate marketing engineer when I complained about new ST-225's occasionally showing this problem. . However, Wikipedia states that the problem really is heat and lubricants: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction So, the moral is "never trust a marketing guy", I guess. Cheers, Chuck -------------------- Reply: Or don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia; in my experience (quite a few Seagate ST-225's and 251's, and recently even a Conner IDE drive) it was always heads sticking to platters when the drive was shut down after running for a long time. But perhaps bearing lube was also a problem (that I just never ran across). mike From tothwolf at concentric.net Sat Dec 9 21:31:09 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 21:31:09 -0600 (CST) Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <457AD7FA.9090102@brutman.com> References: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> <457AD7FA.9090102@brutman.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Dec 2006, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Jay West wrote: > >> I have one of the parallel port to ethernet devices... a Xircom. I >> wonder if anyone ever reverse engineered the user interface to the >> parallel port for it :) > > Somebody tried - they were working on a Linux device driver for it, and > you can search to find the results. In a nutshell, Xircom never > released the specs, and it was too much of a pain to reverse engineer. > Hence it is not supported by Linux. Eh...them's fightin words^O^O^O^O^Othere's a challenge :) I guess I'll have to add this to my ever growing to-investigate/to-do list. Dunno where I'd find the adapters these days though. -Toth From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Dec 9 22:53:31 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 23:53:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! In-Reply-To: <1A90F2EA-E716-4CB7-AE56-F66B2BDD9BDE@feedle.net> References: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> <1A90F2EA-E716-4CB7-AE56-F66B2BDD9BDE@feedle.net> Message-ID: <200612100458.XAA09327@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > First off, for 99% of us in the universe nowadays, C64Term for the PC > (as suggested on the website) simply won't work. Pretty much every > computer sold in the last 10 years is equipped with a Winmodem, and > real "hardware" modems have been impossible to find for the last 5. Of all the places I would hope people wouldn't be stuck with only the latest Wintel trash (and yes, I consider a computers such as you describe "trash")... ...but I suppose we can't all be that lucky. > I personally don't know of a better solution, other than to use a C64 > emulator and bind to whatever modem people have. I don't know what > the answer is, but hopefully somebody can figure out a > Windows-compatible solution. VMware running a real OS, presenting the winmodem as an ordinary serial port (of whatever type it deos for serial ports)? I know someone who does that for, IIRC, video - his laptop's video (or whatever it is) isn't understood by his OS of choice (a Unix variant, don't recall which one), so he runs Windows and VMware, with *nothing* else running directly under Windows; everything "real" runs on the VMware emulated machine. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Dec 9 23:15:26 2006 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 00:15:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200612100517.AAA24722@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I have a list of tapes of which I have little knowledge. > Currently I cannot (easily) read these tapes. > Is there anything of interest. I think they are all for RICS. > Here are texts from labels: I'd love to get copies of the bits on these tapes. I'm not sure how best to make that happen, especially as the footer on your mail implies you're in Finland (and I'm in North America). I think I have a working TK50 drive, but getting the tapes to me would be mildly expensive (and somewhat risky given the chance of their getting lost or damaged in transit). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Dec 10 00:22:23 2006 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 22:22:23 -0800 Subject: Pro-Log 1702 programmer in BC, Canada? References: <474C8379.5020506@compsys.to> Message-ID: <457BA79A.FD7AA21@cs.ubc.ca> Hi John, sorry I should have gotten back to you sooner. I have RE'd the 1702 plug-in and captured all the data from the 1702s in my programmer, so the 1702 plug-in is ready to be delivered. In part, I've just been waiting on a day of decent weather to coordinate with you and cycle in to Main St. with it. (phone: 604-469-1888) John Robertson wrote: > > Someone from this group, located here in BC, had called me a month > ago about his Pro-Log Eprom programmer that did 1702s. I would like > to get in touch with him as I do not have his phone number. > > Thanks, > > John :-#)# From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Dec 9 20:03:30 2006 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 02:03:30 +0000 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <200612091615.kB9GFNIl089075@keith.ezwind.net> References: Message-ID: <20061210065845.WPVG6280.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > In the late 90's the cheep cpu fans they were putting in clones would last between 15k -> 20k hours. Changing > fans kept some small service shops in business for several years around the turn of the century. > Same here back then from early 90's to 2000 or so, we replace fans on anything from 40mm all the way to 80mm bec of bearings dying. Now no longer since we just replace the heatsink or a power supply. > My friend David had a stiction problem last year on a 3344 disk pack running on an IBM System 3. The head > retracted to park and stuck to a very old and very soft rubber home stop. It did not release and come ready untill > pushed from behind with a stick, via the inspection hole, to get it moveing again. > > Stiction comes in many forms from numerious reasons ..... > Bob Bradlee I had several micropolis 13xx series get rubber stop stiction that glued the arm to that rubber stop and not letting arm go. Had to open it and push arm off rubber for data recovery. Cheers, Wizard From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 10 02:28:48 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 00:28:48 -0800 Subject: Followup: Hazeltine "Computer" Message-ID: <457B54C0.26841.5722977@cclist.sydex.com> Well, I finally got around to prowling through the 5.25" floppy archives for the so-called "Hazeltine" computer diskettes. I found 'em--in the last 10 diskettes in the file(!). In the meantime, I ran across all sorts of names of systems not heard recently, such as "Peoples World" and "Pan Asia". The diskettes contain only the legend "Hazeltine CP/M" and date from about 1982 or so. The bad news is that the boot tracks contain a CP/M system image, along with CBIOS, but no clue is given as to the system name. Looking at the directory, there was a disk utility to format and surface copy, but no identification there either. There was also a copy of Spellguard and Wordstar--aha! Wordstar almost always contains the name of at the least the terminal, if not the system. Well, it does--but the terminal listed is an ADDS Viewpoint--and no system named. :( Bottom line is that I have nothing to contribute to the "Hazeltime Computer" legend--and, with the discovery of the ADDS terminal code, don't even know why the customer insisted on calling it a Hazeltine (but he did--I found the letter in my files. So--shrug! My guess is that the "computer, given the date" may have been housed in the same box as the floppy drives.--and that a Hazeltine terminal was connected to it. But I didn't think that a Hazeltine had cotnrol sequences anything like an ADDS Viewpoint. Cheers, Chuck From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Dec 10 03:06:41 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 09:06:41 +0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 40, Issue 14 In-Reply-To: <110016.4880.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> References: <110016.4880.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <457BCE21.6000309@gjcp.net> Chris M wrote: > I think the answer is to unsubscribe yourself from > cctech and subscribe to cctalk. Posting is nearly > realtime. I for one an not afraid of unmoderated > lists. Furthermore, I can't see how the cctech list is that helpful - surely if you remove the off-topic posts you lose a lot of useful-but-borderline stuff? You certainly lose a lot of the interesting discussions. As I've said before, there are people on this list who have been around a lot longer than I have, who have some really interesting things to tell about stuff that isn't necessarily "on-topic" but provides a lot of context to the on-topic discussions. Like 110v hot-dog cookers. I'd hate for this list to be as dry and rigidly topic-focused as (say) the Debian lists. They can be so narrow as to be almost worthless. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Dec 10 03:21:38 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 09:21:38 +0000 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <457ADE6A.15942.3A3F04B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <457A77A9.27361.2129158@cclist.sydex.com>, <1B47D592-F7C8-4A45-BDA2-842128A65DD3@neurotica.com> <457ADE6A.15942.3A3F04B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <457BD1A2.4090506@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Dec 2006 at 18:42, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> It seems to me that many of these types of attitudes stem from the >> "if it's old, it's bad, and if it's not new, it's old" mentality that >> has been adopted by the obedient mass of consumers. > > My reaction upon getting my first NE555 was "Isn't that just the most > clever thing you've ever seen?--and in an 8 pin DIP, too!" Similar to my first thoughts on playing with an NE555. My second thought on using it was "where the fsck is all this hash on the supply line coming from?!" Gordon From wdg3rd at comcast.net Sun Dec 10 04:15:32 2006 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:15:32 +0000 Subject: A 1935 example of the internet. Message-ID: <121020061015.3774.457BDE440003687400000EBE22135285730B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message: 2 Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2006 10:30:35 -0800 From: "Michael Holley" Subject: A 1935 example of the internet. To: Message-ID: <0b8401c71bc0$2e32a410$6601a8c0 at downstairs2> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original > Hugo Gernsback started the magazines that became Popular Electronics and > Radio Electronics. He was known for his predictions on the future of > electronics. In the February 1935 issue of Radio Craft (later Radio > Electronics) he describes in some detail a future home radio that includes > television and electronic delivery of the newspaper. It appears to allow two > way communication. Actually, he described that system earlier than that in his fiction, a novel published in 1929 (but I think was serialized in Amazing Stories first and another source says it was written in 1911) titled _Ralph 124C41+_. (For those who don't know, Hugo Gernsback created the first magazines dedicated to science fiction, and the annual Hugo Awards, SF's "Oscars" as it were, are named after him). The novel is full of cliches. Well, they're cliches now. They weren't then. -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net When you let people do whatever they want, you get Woodstock. When you let governments do whatever they want, you get Auschwitz. Doug Newman From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Dec 10 06:54:44 2006 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 07:54:44 -0500 Subject: Apple-1 History? In-Reply-To: <200612091812.kB9ICffo020986@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> References: <200612081840.kB8Iele6032259@hosting.monisys.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Dec 08, 2006 02:35:26 PM Message-ID: <200612101200.kBAC07eM030768@hosting.monisys.ca> > Hi Dave, there's no reason for this guy to be flying off like he is. > Nothing out of line in your entry, and he's probably just a bit eccentric. > The only thing I could see factualy (nitpick) wise is (and it has nothing > to do with his gripe however): ... Suggested new wording: > "In 1976, Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs formed the Apple Computer Company > to sell Wozniak's computer, which they named the "Apple 1". Although it > required the users to provide their own cabinet, power supply, keyboard > and video monitor, it didn't require a seperate terminal as other > computers of the time did. A simple BASIC interpreter could also be > loaded with an optional casette interface. Although it required a fairly > technical user to complete the system and make it usable, about 200 Apple > 1's were assembled in Jobs' garage and sold in the first year." Marty, Thanks, and I agree - I have updated the site to reflect these changes. And to everyone else - thanks for the feedback and encouragement. To paraphrase Spock "I shall give this individual all the consideration he is due". (I love quoting fictional people) Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 08:58:25 2006 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 09:58:25 -0500 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! Message-ID: <4affc5e0612100658m47f60f8g7c008331debbd0d5@mail.gmail.com> > From: der Mouse > > I personally don't know of a better solution, other than to use a C64 > > emulator and bind to whatever modem people have. I don't know what > > the answer is, but hopefully somebody can figure out a > > Windows-compatible solution. > > VMware running a real OS, presenting the winmodem as an ordinary serial > port (of whatever type it deos for serial ports)? Actually, it might be worth checking out USB modems: I think many actually attach as a regular USB serial port that has a modem attached to it - though it's all within a single blob. Not having a USB-to-serial adapter myself I just built myself a dummy phone line (12V battery, 2 caps and a resistor) so my modern stuff (Macs with modems but no serial ports) can talk to my Amiga (and other stuff) via an external modem set to auto-answer. Both on my server (B&W G3 running NetBSD) and my laptop (G4) the modem responds to good old AT commands... This leads me to suspect that the Apple USB modem also will respond to AT commands. The only danger is that it might want firmware to be loaded at attach time from the host to the device (like my %^&!ing MIDI adapter!) Joe. From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 09:17:44 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:17:44 -0500 Subject: Any early DSP fans? Message-ID: I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is interested in early DSP chips? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Dec 10 09:23:51 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 07:23:51 -0800 Subject: Any early DSP fans? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >From: "9000 VAX" > >I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is interested in >early DSP chips? Hi I have a developement sdk for the Intel 2920 chip. I've played with it a little. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Dec 10 09:30:14 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 07:30:14 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <01C71BDE.E8130A00@mse-d03> Message-ID: >From: M H Stein >----------------Original Message: > >Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2006 09:18:32 -0800 >From: "Chuck Guzis" >Subject: Re: Stiction >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Message-ID: <457A7F68.30292.230D317 at cclist.sydex.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >On 9 Dec 2006 at 7:11, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I have several friends that worked at Seagate when they had > > problems of stiction. It was not a lubricant problem. It was > > caused by the surfaces being too smooth. When to really > > smooth surfaces sit together for a long time, the air is squeezed > > out. Once the surfaces really touch, there is a thing called > > molecular adhesion. > > Anyone that has worked with guage blocks is familair with > > this. > >That's the story that I got from the Seagate marketing engineer when >I complained about new ST-225's occasionally showing this problem. . > >However, Wikipedia states that the problem really is heat and >lubricants: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stiction > >So, the moral is "never trust a marketing guy", I guess. > >Cheers, >Chuck > >-------------------- Reply: > >Or don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia; in my experience >(quite a few Seagate ST-225's and 251's, and recently even a Conner >IDE drive) it was always heads sticking to platters when the drive >was shut down after running for a long time. But perhaps bearing lube >was also a problem (that I just never ran across). > >mike Hi I got my information from enginers that actually worked on the problem. I would trust them over Wikipedia. I do believe that bearing could go dry. I've had to fix a number of older floppy drives with bearing replacements. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Dec 10 09:36:41 2006 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 07:36:41 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <057107DB-314E-4D2D-976A-68666132E4BC@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >From: Dave McGuire > >On Dec 8, 2006, at 1:43 PM, Marvin Johnston wrote: >>I've read several replies indicating that the drive needs to be taken >>apart. >>People have also advocated just "hitting" the drive to break the >>stiction. >> >>Holding the drive and giving it a quick twist around the spindle axis has >>always >>worked for me and avoids potential problems with disassembly or damage. >> >>Has anyone seen stiction on the IDE or later drives? The only stiction >>I've seen >>has always been on the 5 1/4" MFM/RLL type drives, and probably >>ESDI/SCSI/SASI >>as well although my experience is limited on those drives. >> >>Something else I've noticed is that if a drive has stiction, that >>stiction will >>return after the drive sets for a while again. Anyone know what actually >>causes >>stiction? > > The story I heard "back in the day" (which was at work, from a service >bulletin of some sort, so I treat it with some credibility) is that >designers chose the spindle lubricant unwisely in some models of drives, >and it spun out onto the platters a bit and gummed up. > > -Dave > Hi I find this hard to believe. If any of the lub leaked onto the surface, it would surely cause the head to crash one spin up. On the 225 I had, it always worked fine after a smack on the side. Anything like steaks of lub from the bearing would have destroyed the disk in no time. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get free, personalized commercial-free online radio with MSN Radio powered by Pandora http://radio.msn.com/?icid=T002MSN03A07001 From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Dec 10 10:15:41 2006 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:15:41 -0600 Subject: video monitors available Message-ID: <000001c71c76$761d7870$176fa8c0@obie> I've got about a dozen Sony Trinitron PVM-1380 color video monitors available. These are dual-channel composite video/mono audio - great for use with your Apple ][, Atari 800, Commodore 64, etc. Very nice commercial grade in very good condition. Removed from our school language lab, so may be "personalized" cosmetically but nothing objectionable. Free for pickup - I will not ship but I can store them through January. Any remainder will be scrapped in February. Jack 847.424.7320 work -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/581 - Release Date: 12/9/2006 3:41 PM From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sun Dec 10 10:17:40 2006 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:17:40 -0600 Subject: video monitors available - Evanston, Illinois Message-ID: <000101c71c76$bc47f6e0$176fa8c0@obie> I've got about a dozen Sony Trinitron PVM-1380 color video monitors available. These are dual-channel composite video/mono audio - great for use with your Apple ][, Atari 800, Commodore 64, etc. Very nice commercial grade in very good condition. Removed from our school language lab, so may be "personalized" cosmetically but nothing objectionable. Free for pickup - I will not ship but I can store them through January. Any remainder will be scrapped in February. Located in Evanston, Illinois. Jack 847.424.7320 work -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/581 - Release Date: 12/9/2006 3:41 PM From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Dec 10 10:27:28 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:27:28 +0100 Subject: ASR 33 repair tips sought. Message-ID: <457C3570.3060904@bluewin.ch> After shelving the silly idea of converting my machine to 220V ( you guys were right, my "native 220V" machine has a big transformer on the righthand side of the typing unit, and a 115 V motor... ) I still needed to get them running. My latest ASR 33 comes out quite nicely after a removal of dried grease and reoiling and seems to be fully functional, just drops a bit from time to time when using the keyboard. (i.e. LSB missing )I hope a cleaning of the keyboard contacts wil take care of that . My second, older machine however has more severe malfuntioning : it drops bits every second character, and often generates extra characters, @ being a favorite. I assume the error is inside the keyboard, as both units type ascii text from a papertape without a hitch. But what failure mode would cause extra characters from the keyboard ? Jos From RMeenaks at olf.com Sun Dec 10 10:44:24 2006 From: RMeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 11:44:24 -0500 Subject: Any early DSP fans? References: Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557029B0F10@cpexchange.olf.com> How early?? I am specifically looking for any TI C40 and Motorola 9600 DSP stuff... Cheers, Ram -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of dwight elvey Sent: Sun 12/10/2006 10:23 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Any early DSP fans? >From: "9000 VAX" > >I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is interested in >early DSP chips? Hi I have a developement sdk for the Intel 2920 chip. I've played with it a little. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ MSN Shopping has everything on your holiday list. Get expert picks by style, age, and price. Try it! http://shopping.msn.com/content/shp/?ctId=8000,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=200601&tcode=wlmtagline From Fixer7526 at wmconnect.com Sun Dec 10 08:30:06 2006 From: Fixer7526 at wmconnect.com (Fixer7526 at wmconnect.com) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 09:30:06 EST Subject: 1702 EPROM's Message-ID: Hello, Would you please post the following message. I am looking for someone who can copy 1702 EPROM's. Contact me at Fixer7526 at wmconnect.com . Thanks, Alan From vax at purdue.edu Sun Dec 10 09:52:19 2006 From: vax at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:52:19 -0500 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! In-Reply-To: <200612100458.XAA09327@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> <1A90F2EA-E716-4CB7-AE56-F66B2BDD9BDE@feedle.net> <200612100458.XAA09327@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200612101052.19846.vax@purdue.edu> On Saturday 09 December 2006 23:53, der Mouse wrote: > > First off, for 99% of us in the universe nowadays, C64Term for the > > PC (as suggested on the website) simply won't work. Pretty much > > every computer sold in the last 10 years is equipped with a > > Winmodem, and real "hardware" modems have been impossible to find > > for the last 5. Try looking here: http://search.ebay.com/us-robotics I'm also sure that someone on this list has a stash of serial modems that they'd sell (or maybe even send for shipping costs). If you don't have a serial port, or a PCI/ISA slot, then find a less crufty computer to use. :/ > Of all the places I would hope people wouldn't be stuck with only the > latest Wintel trash (and yes, I consider a computers such as you > describe "trash")... > > ...but I suppose we can't all be that lucky. You only can't find a hardware modem if you're too /lazy/ to spend time trying to find one. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac From cc at corti-net.de Sun Dec 10 12:29:11 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 19:29:11 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tektronix 4010 Message-ID: Hello, I'm looking for the schematics from the maintenance manual for the Tektronix 4010. There are the chapters 1 to 6 on pdp8.net but the important chapter 7 is missing. Is there any online copy of this part available? Thanks, Christian PS: I also have a Tektronix 4012 in the cellar; are there any manuals for this model? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 10 12:33:20 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:33:20 -0500 Subject: Any early DSP fans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <114D4867-23F6-4EB1-BF90-3FACF5B03B3A@neurotica.com> On Dec 10, 2006, at 10:17 AM, 9000 VAX wrote: > I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is > interested in > early DSP chips? That depends on what you mean by "early". I really like the Motorola DSP56001 chips (I've hacked on them a bit, and I have a tray of new ones just waiting for a cool project) and I've sniffed around at the Analog Devices ADSP-2100 chips once I found a stash of them...they look rather nifty as well, so they're also waiting for a cool project. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 10 12:36:20 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:36:20 -0500 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2006, at 10:36 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >>> I've read several replies indicating that the drive needs to be >>> taken apart. >>> People have also advocated just "hitting" the drive to break the >>> stiction. >>> >>> Holding the drive and giving it a quick twist around the spindle >>> axis has always >>> worked for me and avoids potential problems with disassembly or >>> damage. >>> >>> Has anyone seen stiction on the IDE or later drives? The only >>> stiction I've seen >>> has always been on the 5 1/4" MFM/RLL type drives, and probably >>> ESDI/SCSI/SASI >>> as well although my experience is limited on those drives. >>> >>> Something else I've noticed is that if a drive has stiction, >>> that stiction will >>> return after the drive sets for a while again. Anyone know what >>> actually causes >>> stiction? >> >> The story I heard "back in the day" (which was at work, from a >> service bulletin of some sort, so I treat it with some >> credibility) is that designers chose the spindle lubricant >> unwisely in some models of drives, and it spun out onto the >> platters a bit and gummed up. > > I find this hard to believe. If any of the lub leaked onto the > surface, it would surely cause the head to crash one spin > up. On the 225 I had, it always worked fine after a smack > on the side. Anything like steaks of lub from the bearing > would have destroyed the disk in no time. I'd have thought that too, but that's what the bulletin said so I believed it at the time. I don't know what the flying heights were in those old drives but I'm sure they were nowhere near as low as modern drives. But you mentioned "225"...As in Seagate ST-225? I've never heard of stiction problems with those (I have used quite a few of them, and I currently have a few in DEC machines as RD-31s)...I wasn't aware that they could develop such problems. I will keep an eye on mine! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Dec 10 12:38:43 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:38:43 -0500 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! In-Reply-To: <200612101052.19846.vax@purdue.edu> References: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> <1A90F2EA-E716-4CB7-AE56-F66B2BDD9BDE@feedle.net> <200612100458.XAA09327@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200612101052.19846.vax@purdue.edu> Message-ID: <92F1120A-87C3-46D9-9480-976069C01DBF@neurotica.com> On Dec 10, 2006, at 10:52 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > You only can't find a hardware modem if you're too /lazy/ to spend > time > trying to find one. :) I have to agree. I trashed hundreds of them earlier this year in Maryland (Digex's old dialin banks, stuck in a warehouse...everything from 14.4K to 33.6K), and I rarely trash anything. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From g-wright at att.net Sun Dec 10 13:09:54 2006 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 19:09:54 +0000 Subject: CMD CDU 700/m Manual needed (SCSI unibus card) Message-ID: <121020061909.12432.457C5B820002A4A30000309021603831169B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, It seems I can find the CMD CDU720 card infomation but nothing on the CDU 700 which was an earlier version (87,88 ) The switch and jumper settings are different. Anyone point me in the right direction. Jumper settings are my first need. Thanks, Jerry From cc at corti-net.de Sun Dec 10 13:10:51 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:10:51 +0100 (CET) Subject: General Automation Minicomputers Message-ID: Hello, I'm looking for documentation and software for the GA SPC-16 (SPC-16/65 to be precise) and the GA-16/460. They seem to be very rare as there's practically nothing about them on the net. I need to build a memory board for the SPC-16 because I have none in my machine, or will a memory board from the GA-16 work in the SPC-16? Christian From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 10 13:05:15 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 12:05:15 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4010 In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Dec 2006 19:29:11 +0100. Message-ID: In article , Christian Corti writes: > I'm looking for the schematics from the maintenance manual for the > Tektronix 4010. There are the chapters 1 to 6 on pdp8.net but the > important chapter 7 is missing. Is there any online copy of this part > available? Its not the 4010, but the 4014 is very similar to the 4010. I have both. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 10 13:01:03 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 12:01:03 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 40, Issue 14 In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Dec 2006 09:06:41 +0000. <457BCE21.6000309@gjcp.net> Message-ID: In article <457BCE21.6000309 at gjcp.net>, Gordon JC Pearce writes: > Furthermore, I can't see how the cctech list is that helpful - surely if > you remove the off-topic posts you lose a lot of useful-but-borderline > stuff? You certainly lose a lot of the interesting discussions. You lose more than that -- I don't send stuff to the cctech list at all; it all goes to cctalk. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 10 12:59:11 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 11:59:11 -0700 Subject: Any early DSP fans? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Dec 2006 10:17:44 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "9000 VAX" writes: > I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is interested in > early DSP chips? I have several vintage machines that depend on AT&T DSP32C chips to do their business. The ESV workstation used them for per-vertex processing and scan conversion; a custom VLSI chip that I wrote test code for does span and frame buffer processing. The AT&T Pixel Machine uses the DSP32C to perform all its processing, I think. I also have a TMS320C25 development kit that I guess is "vintage" by now, although it wasn't at the time I bought it :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 10 13:02:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 12:02:44 -0700 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:38:43 -0500. <92F1120A-87C3-46D9-9480-976069C01DBF@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I got a pile of ISA modem cards if anyone needs one for cost of shipping. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cc at corti-net.de Sun Dec 10 13:18:19 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:18:19 +0100 (CET) Subject: Texas Instruments 960B Message-ID: Hello, does anybody have bits for the TI 960B (not 960A) minicomputer, e.g. software, schematics etc. ? I'd like to get this system running again. Thanks, Christian From cc at corti-net.de Sun Dec 10 13:26:08 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:26:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: BASF 6114 disk drive Message-ID: Hello, I have one of those "washing machine" disk drive which uses media with 11 platters in nearly mint condition (heads are locked, test protocol from the manufacturer is included). I think that this is a rebaged CDC or Memorex drive. I'd like to use this drive and therefore need any kind of manual for the BASF 6114. My idea is to check out the drive and disk packs and then let some students build an interface that connects this drive to a SCSI bus ;-)) Christian From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 10 13:42:40 2006 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 11:42:40 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4010 and General Automation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457C6330.7000007@sbcglobal.net> I have the service manual for the 4010. I can scan some of the schematics if you are looking for something in particular. I can also get the manual to Al at bitsavers if he has time to scan it. The schematics are the large fold-out sheets, not too easy to scan. Also, I have a GA SPC-16/80 system, not yet running, but I have a whole box of paper tape software for it. I'm not sure what's there but I will try and make a list. Possibly there's something useful in the box. I also have some documentation for the system, but no schematics that I have found yet. Here's a partial list of the SPC-16 manuals I have: Cap-16 Assembler SPC-16 Fortran IV Commercial Fortran SPC-16 COBOL SPC-16 System Processor reference manual SPC-16/40,45,60,65,80,85 system reference SPC-16/40,45,60,65,80,85 maintenance manual Bob Christian Corti wrote: > Hello, > > I'm looking for the schematics from the maintenance manual for the > Tektronix 4010. There are the chapters 1 to 6 on pdp8.net but the > important chapter 7 is missing. Is there any online copy of this part > available? > > Thanks, > Christian > > PS: > I also have a Tektronix 4012 in the cellar; are there any manuals for > this model? > From henk.gooijen at oce.com Sun Dec 10 14:33:09 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 21:33:09 +0100 Subject: new DEC printset scans Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F834@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Hi all, I got a new pile of field maintenance print sets ready to be scanned. I checked bitsavers, and did not find the following. Let me know if some of these are already scanned, and which should be scanned first ... Here is the list. MP00809 11/44 system MP01377 11/750F MP01390 750PCS MP01024 KA750 MP01269 FP750 assembly MP00858 L0011 MP01404 L0016 MP01398 M8750 MP01020 H7104-C MP01021 H7104-D MP01022 875 controller MP00063 VSV01 MP00965 DMF32 MP02379 DELQA MP00742 MS11-M MP00021 MS11-E MP01239 MSV11-P MP00424 H333 and some Engineering Drawings: DD11-D KW11-P TU10 DECmagtape and this one which is not the best copy: DT07 (half inch thick stack!) greetz, - Henk, PA8PDP This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Dec 10 15:06:29 2006 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 21:06:29 -0000 Subject: new DEC printset scans In-Reply-To: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE09B3F834@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> Message-ID: <009001c71c9f$11afcc20$5f04010a@uatempname> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > MP00809 11/44 system > MP00021 MS11-E Done by some chap named Henk :-) > MP01377 11/750F > MP01390 750PCS > MP01024 KA750 > MP01404 L0016 > MP01398 M8750 > MP01020 H7104-C > MP01021 H7104-D > MP01022 875 controller > MP00965 DMF32 > MP01239 MSV11-P > KW11-P I've done these, check on Manx to see if yours are the same variant (or just scan the others first - can't have too many copies :-)) Antonio From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 10 12:59:39 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:59:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: <457ABAD9.29681.3190231@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 9, 6 01:32:09 pm Message-ID: > > On 9 Dec 2006 at 21:07, Tony Duell wrote: > > > OK, here are the actual procesdures from the manual : [snip] > > Many thanks--I've got your notes safely stashed away. Hopefully it's > not the custom controller in the same box... If you need any more help with the electronics of the drive itself, I have the service manual. It's got some board-swapping flowcharts in the first part (that's what I produced that 'procedure' from), but the second bit is the schematics. So I can probably figure it out. But if the problem is inside the HDA (maybe a damaged clock head or track, this AFAIK is a fixed head that always reads the same track off one of the platters) or if the problem is in the cotnroller, which I know nothing about (what is the machine, BTW?) then I probably won't be much use. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Dec 10 15:07:01 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 21:07:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR 33 repair tips sought. In-Reply-To: <457C3570.3060904@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Dec 10, 6 05:27:28 pm Message-ID: > But what failure mode would cause extra characters from the keyboard ? When you press a key, you relase a lever at the right side of the keyboard. This rotates (front end rises), turning the well-known H-plate that links the keybaord to the typing unit. This, in turn, releases the trasnmitter clutch. At the end of the transmit cycle, the H-plate is forced back again by a cam on the trasnmit shaft in the typing unit, which turns the trip lever in the keyboard back again. At which point this lever has to be latched by a catch in the keyboard (this is the catch that's released when you press any key). Well, if that catch is sticking, or there's an incorrect adjustment somewhere in the transmit trip linkage, then the thing might will not latch up every time, casuing the trasnmit shaft to make 2 revolutions, thus sending extra characters. -tony From brain at jbrain.com Sun Dec 10 15:32:57 2006 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 15:32:57 -0600 Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP In-Reply-To: References: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> <457AD7FA.9090102@brutman.com> Message-ID: <457C7D09.90607@jbrain.com> Tothwolf wrote: > On Sat, 9 Dec 2006, Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> Jay West wrote: >> >>> I have one of the parallel port to ethernet devices... a Xircom. I >>> wonder if anyone ever reverse engineered the user interface to the >>> parallel port for it :) >> >> Somebody tried - they were working on a Linux device driver for it, >> and you can search to find the results. In a nutshell, Xircom never >> released the specs, and it was too much of a pain to reverse >> engineer. Hence it is not supported by Linux. > > Eh...them's fightin words^O^O^O^O^Othere's a challenge :) > > I guess I'll have to add this to my ever growing to-investigate/to-do > list. Dunno where I'd find the adapters these days though. > > -Toth If you'd spoke up sooner, I had 3 on eBay a few weeks back. They were rotting here, and I wanted them out. The were PE3's If I find another, I'll note it to the list. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 10 15:42:05 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:42:05 -0800 Subject: Stiction In-Reply-To: References: <457ABAD9.29681.3190231@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 9, 6 01:32:09 pm, Message-ID: <457C0EAD.28008.8486D4C@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Dec 2006 at 18:59, Tony Duell wrote: > But if the problem is inside the HDA (maybe a damaged clock head or > track, this AFAIK is a fixed head that always reads the same track off > one of the platters) or if the problem is in the cotnroller, which I know > nothing about (what is the machine, BTW?) then I probably won't be much use. It's an external disk drive for a business micro. Protocol is GPIB and the controller is a very large PCB with lots of bit-slice logic on it, bearing the logo "Microsystems Associates". Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 10 15:47:00 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:47:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Followup: Hazeltine "Computer" In-Reply-To: <457B54C0.26841.5722977@cclist.sydex.com> References: <457B54C0.26841.5722977@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20061210134556.I23221@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 10 Dec 2006, Chuck Guzis wrote: > So--shrug! My guess is that the "computer, given the date" may have > been housed in the same box as the floppy drives.--and that a > Hazeltine terminal was connected to it. . . . had a customer who insisted that his computer was an ADM3a. He was running a Morrow with a terminal. From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 16:01:41 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:01:41 -0500 Subject: Any early DSP fans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ha, finally DSP32C showed up. Yes, I have an ISA bus DSP32C board that is ready to go to a good home. I do not have the software. Just for $5 shipping cost. vax, 9000 On 12/10/06, Richard wrote: > > > In article , > "9000 VAX" writes: > > > I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is interested in > > early DSP chips? > > I have several vintage machines that depend on AT&T DSP32C chips to do > their business. The ESV workstation used them for per-vertex > processing and scan conversion; a custom VLSI chip that I wrote test > code for does span and frame buffer processing. The AT&T Pixel > Machine uses the DSP32C to perform all its processing, I think. > > I also have a TMS320C25 development kit that I guess is "vintage" by > now, although it wasn't at the time I bought it :-). > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Dec 10 16:18:19 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:18:19 -0500 Subject: Any early DSP fans? References: Message-ID: <008a01c71ca9$19a51b10$0b01a8c0@game> I have a few DSP Nubus boards used in 68K Macs for Photoshop work ( A pair of AT&7T DSP16A), another nubus card with a pair of AT&T DSP32c's, and a Nubus video card with a pair of DSP16As. Plus the early pro soundcards (like the Audiomedia II Nubus) had DSPs onboard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "9000 VAX" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 5:01 PM Subject: Re: Any early DSP fans? > Ha, finally DSP32C showed up. Yes, I have an ISA bus DSP32C board that is > ready to go to a good home. I do not have the software. Just for $5 shipping > cost. > > vax, 9000 > > On 12/10/06, Richard wrote: > > > > > > In article , > > "9000 VAX" writes: > > > > > I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is interested in > > > early DSP chips? > > > > I have several vintage machines that depend on AT&T DSP32C chips to do > > their business. The ESV workstation used them for per-vertex > > processing and scan conversion; a custom VLSI chip that I wrote test > > code for does span and frame buffer processing. The AT&T Pixel > > Machine uses the DSP32C to perform all its processing, I think. > > > > I also have a TMS320C25 development kit that I guess is "vintage" by > > now, although it wasn't at the time I bought it :-). > > -- > > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > > > > Legalize Adulthood! > > From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 10 16:50:39 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 16:50:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: Compaq Portable III problem Message-ID: <200612102250.kBAMoclQ083046@keith.ezwind.net> Hi, Someone I know just got his hands on a Compaq Portable III. Read the 3 emails below, which are in order. Anyone got any ideas what might have gone? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Hi Now here is the thing... It gave out a massive electronic bang when I switched it on. Something definitely blew.. But it wasn`t the main computer, cus up popped the orange screen with IBM on it, the hard drive is working, the floppy drive is working as is the keyboard... I can even run the programs on it.. The crack came from by the switch.. Slight burning smell, but gone now. And is working fine. This baby has travelled a long way these two days... I guess not very happy. I can`t get over the build quality.... scuzz ---------------------------------- Interesting this.... [ quote ] Nancy Hackett's bad experience: Oh, did this machine have problems! I went through four of those nifty plasma monitors, several hard drives, two factory rebuilds, and an uncounted number of motherboards trying to track down internal error codes that Compaq said didn't exist! It came (not so) lovingly to be known as "The Compaq from Hell" with the motherboard rumored to be numbered "666". Both the maintenance manager's and the Compaq regional rep's hands would sweat every time I lugged it in. The spectacular finale was when the power supply blew, shooting blue flames 18" out the side! LOL! That was an experience! [ end quote ] Not quite the flames as described... scuzz ------------------------- Andrew > That doesn't sound too good. It may still > work for now, but if something did go then > it's likely to be putting a strain on other > components depending on what went. > It looks cool though ;) Well spotted. The thing just flipped out. All I get now is all the indicator lights to power light, caps lock etc flashing at regular intervals. Hopefully not too dificult to trace and fix, subject to there being no replacement parts involved. As I say the screen was working, so too the drives, keyboard and obviously the processor and memory so I am thinking something to do with the power supply.. I had feared the worst... And did switch it off. But I did just check and she fired up but then just stopped... Never mind. scuzz From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 16:56:48 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:56:48 +1300 Subject: ISA nics and DOS TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <457C7D09.90607@jbrain.com> References: <019201c71b0a$ce70a460$6500a8c0@BILLING> <457AD7FA.9090102@brutman.com> <457C7D09.90607@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 12/11/06, Jim Brain wrote: > If you'd spoke up sooner, I had 3 on eBay a few weeks back. They were > rotting here, and I wanted them out. The were PE3's The PE3s are nice - I use one with an old Zenith laptop (w/dual pop-up 720K floppies) and Kermit for a portable terminal (the PE3 is for when I want to access hosts over Ethernet instead of serial - Kermit comes with a TCP stack - just add packet driver). I know the PE3s can be parasitically powered over a PS/2 or AT keyboard connector; I'm not so sure the PE2s are low enough power to do that (I have a pigtail lead from the PE3 power jack to a M/F PS/2 passthrough connector - very handy). All this discussion of Linux aside, at the moment, AFAIK, the PE3 is stuck in the era of DOS and packet drivers (so DOS, Win3.1, etc.) I think it still works with Win95, but there is no XP driver, rendering them somewhat useless for most modern consumers, keeping the price down. Jim, I'm curious what you got for them on eBay since they do lack widespread utility with modern machines. ISTR seeing them at Dayton in the $5-$10 range, typically on table with PCMCIA cards and what-not, but perhaps they are old enough to be in they "curious and getting scarce" category. -ethan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Dec 10 17:22:31 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:22:31 +0000 Subject: Compaq Portable III problem In-Reply-To: <200612102250.kBAMoclQ083046@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Andrew, On 10/12/06 22:50, "aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk" wrote: > > Hi, > > Someone I know just got his hands on a > Compaq Portable III. Read the 3 emails below, > which are in order. Who is this 'scuzz'? Based on your previous emails he/she seems to be intent on picking up anything he can proceed to complain about in some form or other? Also, why isn't he on this list? -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Dec 10 17:34:33 2006 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:34:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: Compaq Portable III problem Message-ID: <200612102334.kBANYW7k085073@keith.ezwind.net> --- Adrian Graham wr ote: > Andrew, > > On 10/12/06 22:50, "aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk" > > wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > Someone I know just got his hands on a > > Compaq Portable III. Read the 3 emails below, > > which are in order. > > Who is this 'scuzz'? Based on your previous emails > he/she seems to be intent > on picking up anything he can proceed to complain > about in some form or > other? Also, why isn't he on this list? > It's nothing like that at all. He has spent the last decade collecting lots of retro computer equipment. Originally starting with Amiga's his collection has grown to emmense proportions and currently includes Spectrums, Amstrads, MSX's and loads of other stuff (including books & manuals). His website is: http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com As to why he isn't on this list himself? I can't answer that. He is aware of this list and of the site. Perhaps it's because he gets too many emails from other lists/groups. I do know he sometimes works long hours and such. Personally I myself can only deal with 100-200 emails a day. Any more than that and old mail gets left until I have got my email account down enough to rediscover old unread mail. He certainly isn't a bad person at all, he has helped me out in the past with amiga software and (colour) photocopying magazine pages for me. He does dislike Microsoft and Windows though.. especially modern Windows OS's which are constantly updating and sending unknown info via the web. However, that's getting off-topic. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 19:18:02 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:18:02 -0500 Subject: Any early DSP fans? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is claimed. vax, 9000 On 12/10/06, 9000 VAX wrote: > > Ha, finally DSP32C showed up. Yes, I have an ISA bus DSP32C board that is > ready to go to a good home. I do not have the software. Just for $5 shipping > cost. > > vax, 9000 > > On 12/10/06, Richard wrote: > > > > > > In article > >, > > "9000 VAX" < vax9000 at gmail.com> writes: > > > > > I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is interested > > in > > > early DSP chips? > > > > I have several vintage machines that depend on AT&T DSP32C chips to do > > their business. The ESV workstation used them for per-vertex > > processing and scan conversion; a custom VLSI chip that I wrote test > > code for does span and frame buffer processing. The AT&T Pixel > > Machine uses the DSP32C to perform all its processing, I think. > > > > I also have a TMS320C25 development kit that I guess is "vintage" by > > now, although it wasn't at the time I bought it :-). > > -- > > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > > download > > > > > > > > > Legalize Adulthood! < http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/> > > > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Dec 10 19:21:08 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:21:08 -0800 Subject: RK05 images Message-ID: <457CB284.4070406@shiresoft.com> I've imaged the first of (many) RK05 packs. Here's what I've done so far (these were done first because they were either cleaned or because they were still sealed in the *original* DEC shipping boxes): * PDP-11 F-77/RSX V4.0 (DEC Distribution media) * RMS-11 V1.8/RSX-11M V3.2 (DEC Distribution media) * RSX-11M V3.2 AUTOPATCH 1/2 (DEC Distribution media) * RSX-11M V3.2 AUTOPATCH 2/2 (DEC Distribution media) * RT11 V4.0 MUBASIC V2 (handwritten label) * XXDP RKDP PKG #1 (handwritten label) I'll be putting these up on my website in the next few days (the images will have been gzip'd to save space and reduce bandwidth). To wet your appetites, here are some of the other "high" value packs (these are all DEC Distribution media unless otherwise noted): * EDU-DECAL (DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CA1 AUTHOR LANGUAGE SYSTEM) * RSTS V6C RK System 1 of 3 (handwritten) * RMS-11K/RSX-11M V1.5 * DECNET-11M/S V3.1 1/2 * XXDP Diags RKDP PKG #2 (handwritten) * CVZZDU0 LSI-11 DKDP+ DIAG PKG * DECNET-11M/S V3.1 2/2 * RSX-11M AUTO-PATCH REV-D * RSX11S V2.1 * CTS-300/DIS V1 * SORT-11 V01 * XXDP RKDP DIAG PKG 1 * XXDP RKDP DIAG PKG 2 * XXDP RKDP DIAG PKG 3 * F4/IAS-RSX V2.2 * DECNET-11M/S V2.0 1/2 * RSX11M V3.1 MCRSRC * RSX11M V3.1 FCPDMP * MUMPS V04 (handwritten) * F4-PLUS/RSX V3.0 * DIBOL-11 SOURCE RELEASE 4 (Typed label) * RSX-11M V3.2 EXC SRC BIN * COBOL/RSX11M/IAS V4 * COBOL/RSX11M/IAS V3.1 BIN * DECNET-11M/S V3.1 NET 1/2 I have to clean each of these packs before I image them since they weren't kept in the original shipping boxes. I also have 170+ additional packs that have all handwritten labels, but weren't as interesting as what I've already listed. Cleaning a pack takes about 20 minutes (including disassembly and reassembly) so don't expect these to be done quickly. Except for the two packs that I've cleaned myself (above), I'm not sure if the contents of the packs match what the labels indicate. I've also discovered that DEC distribution packs (at least the ones I've read so far) only format the first 202 cylinders (vs a max of 203 cylinders). -- TTFN - Guy From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 10 19:26:48 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:26:48 -0700 Subject: Cleaning disk packs (was: RK05 images) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:21:08 -0800. <457CB284.4070406@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: In article <457CB284.4070406 at shiresoft.com>, Guy Sotomayor writes: > [...] Cleaning a pack takes about 20 > minutes (including disassembly and reassembly) so don't expect these to > be done quickly. Just out of curiosity, what's your procedure for cleaning them? Is there a similar procedure that should be done for RL01 disk packs? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From technobug at comcast.net Sun Dec 10 19:35:06 2006 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:35:06 -0700 Subject: Any early DSP fans? In-Reply-To: <200612101800.kBAI09l5034797@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612101800.kBAI09l5034797@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 11:44:24 -0500, "Ram Meenakshisundaram" wrote: > How early?? I am specifically looking for any TI C40 and Motorola > 9600 DSP stuff... > > Cheers, > > Ram [...] >> From: "9000 VAX" >> >> I am wondering whether any member of this mailing list is >> interested in >> early DSP chips? > > Hi > I have a developement sdk for the Intel 2920 chip. > I've played with it a little. > Dwight I'm presently attempting to play with a Loughborough Sound Images PCI/ C44S board that has 4 'C44s on it. If my old employer falls into the season's hype^H^H^H^Hspirit I might be be gifted with the TI compiler and a distributed OS. I programmed a system with 17 'C40s a while back and do like the beast. However, I'm still looking for info on this particular board - any info would be appreciated. Recently came across my original 'C20 development kit and lit it up for giggles and grins :=)) CRC From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Dec 10 20:45:09 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:45:09 -0300 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... References: , <004c01c71a1a$6631f390$6500a8c0@BILLING> <4577D65F.17732.32520826@cclist.sydex.com> <45785C72.6040508@feedle.net><4578703F.7030704@yahoo.co.uk><45787FA8.6050706@feedle.net><160501c71a55$73c485f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <01ec01c71b0b$7be16df0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <019701c71cce$79872850$f0fea8c0@alpha> > However this winds up being done.... I'd love it if there was an RS232 > serial interface on it with some type of procotol that was documented. I'd > LOVE to write a little driver on the HP 2100 that let me write files to it > which could then be moved back and forth to a PC... Jay, it can be done (forgot how to spell 'definitely'). But..."why"? Compactflash is fast/big enough, to use a serial cable I'd have to create a way to write on the CF (and it can be done faster thru a CF card writter) or to have SRAM on board. Maybe I can use RS232/USB, who knows? I'm here to please you all :oD From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Dec 10 20:53:09 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:53:09 -0300 Subject: Cottonwood BBS is operational! References: <62820.54402.qm@web54406.mail.yahoo.com> <1A90F2EA-E716-4CB7-AE56-F66B2BDD9BDE@feedle.net> Message-ID: <01d101c71ccf$f0cddde0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Additionally, emulation would allow people to use Telnet to connect, and > would allow those of us with no functional landline (believe it or not, > there's now a lot of people who depend solely on broadband- delivered VoIP > and cellular exclusively) to play the home game. I cannot remember the name now, but there is a clone of Remote Access made for windows, that accept modems and telnet connections, seems ideal for a bbs redoing. Also, if I'm not mistaken, FrontDoor accepts communication via tcp/uucp. From djg at pdp8.net Sun Dec 10 20:56:23 2006 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 21:56:23 -0500 Subject: Tektronix 4010 Message-ID: <200612110256.kBB2uNS29172@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> >I'm looking for the schematics from the maintenance manual for the >Tektronix 4010. There are the chapters 1 to 6 on pdp8.net but the >important chapter 7 is missing. > Yet another project not completed. I have stuck the raw scans of that section in with the rest at ftp://ftp.pdp8.net/misc/4010/ I will try to clean them up next weekend. I think I found all the files from that section but if not email me and I will find them. Before I forgot about it I was debating on the best way to deal with the foldout pages in that section. The big foldout pages in this manual frequently had two separate drawings. Would people prefer that they be on one big pages like the real manual or on two separate pages so viewing and printing will be easier for people who can't print on the foldout size paper? From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 10 21:41:08 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:41:08 -0700 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:35:06 -0700. Message-ID: Talking of DSPs reminded me of the graphics chips family that TI created in the mid 80s, the TMS34010 was the first part. Does anyone have equipment that utilizes this chip or have an opportunity to work with them directly? It was a chip I read about a lot, but didn't get around to using myself. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 10 21:42:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:42:55 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4010 In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Dec 2006 21:56:23 -0500. <200612110256.kBB2uNS29172@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: In article <200612110256.kBB2uNS29172 at user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com>, djg at pdp8.net writes: > Before I forgot about it I was debating on the best way to deal with the > foldout pages in that section. The big foldout pages in this manual > frequently had two separate drawings. Would people prefer that they be on > one big pages like the real manual or on two separate pages so viewing > and printing will be easier for people who can't print on the foldout size > paper? If it were me and the big foldout contained two figures, then I'd be happier with each figure as its own page in the PDF. I'd go for the opposite if it were simply one huge honkin' picture/diagram and not two diagrams laid out on a large page. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 21:46:05 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:46:05 -0500 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Talking of DSPs reminded me of the graphics chips family that TI > created in the mid 80s, the TMS34010 was the first part. IBM Xstations use them, back in the early RS/6000 days. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 21:47:49 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:47:49 -0500 Subject: Cleaning disk packs (was: RK05 images) In-Reply-To: References: <457CB284.4070406@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > Just out of curiosity, what's your procedure for cleaning them? The proper procedure is to pay $50 for one of the legacy disk vendors to clean them correctly. -- Will From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 22:39:10 2006 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:39:10 -0500 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4affc5e0612102039p754255a5j342c98874fc98cc0@mail.gmail.com> On 12/10/06, Richard wrote: > Talking of DSPs reminded me of the graphics chips family that TI > created in the mid 80s, the TMS34010 was the first part. Not really a graphics chip per se, but a general-purpose DSP, though AFAIK it was primarily laid out for telecom purposes. I may be biased though, that's where I've seen it used :-) > Does anyone have equipment that utilizes this chip or have an > opportunity to work with them directly? Only marginally. By the time I did actually some code in telecom industry (Hello to all ex-Newbridge Ottawa people!) I was working with the C050 - and even that one was strining under the workload of just a few channel at 8kHz sampling rate for applications such as G.729 coding or echo cancellation. The C010 in comparison was VERY limited. > It was a chip I read about a lot, but didn't get around to using > myself. I have the manual for it at my office acually, and my boss has an old board (including POTS interface bits) with it on it. I'm toying with the idea of putting on some of my own code on it, just for old time's sake... Joe. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Dec 10 23:11:05 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:11:05 -0700 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:39:10 -0500. <4affc5e0612102039p754255a5j342c98874fc98cc0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4affc5e0612102039p754255a5j342c98874fc98cc0 at mail.gmail.com>, "Joachim Thiemann" writes: > On 12/10/06, Richard wrote: > > Talking of DSPs reminded me of the graphics chips family that TI > > created in the mid 80s, the TMS34010 was the first part. > > Not really a graphics chip per se, but a general-purpose DSP, though > AFAIK it was primarily laid out for telecom purposes. I may be biased > though, that's where I've seen it used :-) Are you sure you're not confusing the 34010 with the 32010? The 320x0 series was their DSP line. The 340x0 series (I think there was a 34020 at some point) was definately for graphics. It had all kinds of special instructions for interpreting memory as chunks of pixels and had a special video scanout circuitry that you could feed directly to a DAC for a video signal. The chip had all sorts of registers to control the scanout timing. I have docs on them somewhere, IIRC. > Only marginally. By the time I did actually some code in telecom > industry (Hello to all ex-Newbridge Ottawa people!) I was working with > the C050 - and even that one was strining under the workload of just a > few channel at 8kHz sampling rate for applications such as G.729 > coding or echo cancellation. The C010 in comparison was VERY limited. OK, you're definately talking about the 320x0 series here and not the 340x0 series! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Dec 10 19:12:20 2006 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 01:12:20 +0000 Subject: video of CRT implosion? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20061206102138.05b83050@mail.30below.com> References: Message-ID: <20061211060732.NHRI24907.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Hi, I've been looking for videos of the CRT implosion without the safety or safety devices defeated. Just wanted to see this is like. I have heard of stories about "exploding" CRTs in old days and sometimes with modern CRTs. Cheers, Wizard From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 11 00:11:54 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:11:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) Message-ID: <20061211061154.39684.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> My old DEC 486 pizza box had a rather large video card w/an 020. Emulated base VGA but thats all, which made it something of a dog. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Dec 11 00:13:39 2006 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 22:13:39 -0800 Subject: Cleaning disk packs (was: RK05 images) In-Reply-To: References: <457CB284.4070406@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <200612102213.39667.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 10 December 2006 19:47, William Donzelli wrote: > > Just out of curiosity, what's your procedure for cleaning them? > > The proper procedure is to pay $50 for one of the legacy disk vendors > to clean them correctly. The 8th Printing (Third Edition) of the RK05 maintenance manual has in section 5.3.8 "Cartridge Cleaning Procedure". It's quite detailed and explains how to discern regular wear from different types of real damage; lots of details of how to clean, etc. (I looked at an earlier edition of the manual - and that section was not present.) I have cleaned many RL0x and RK05 packs - and never had a disk crash or loss of data as a result of cleaning. For those of us who have replaced heads on RL0x drives - cleaning a pack is in contrast a very simple procedure. I never use any pack I obtain from a third party without cleaning it before use. Do follow the instructions in the maintenance manual. I always use absolute isopropal alcohol (i.e., 99.95%) and lint free pads, etc. to clean packs - in as clean an environment as possible. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Dec 11 00:25:13 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 00:25:13 -0600 Subject: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457CF9C9.8010603@pacbell.net> Richard wrote: > Talking of DSPs reminded me of the graphics chips family that TI > created in the mid 80s, the TMS34010 was the first part. > > Does anyone have equipment that utilizes this chip or have an > opportunity to work with them directly? > > It was a chip I read about a lot, but didn't get around to using > myself. I worked at a start up called ShoGraphics, 1991-1993. I have a lot of stories about the place, but that is another topic. ShoGraphics made an xterm with hardware accelerated PEX (Phigs Extension for X). Here is a link that google coughed up: http://calbears.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EKF/is_n1918_v38/ai_12430939 It sported an i960 for networking, one i860 for control and optionally two more i860s for more beefy geometry acceleration, and mostly custom hardware for rasterization. The prototype hardware had a 34020 that acted as an asynchronous bridge between the i860 CPU and the framebuffer to allow the i860 to do dumb pixel manipulation for low end machines that lacked the rasterization hardware. However, it was a dog, at least in this system. On screen clears you could watch the "wipe" effect. To be fair, the 34020 wasn't doing any work other than video timing control and passing memory read and write requests to the framebuffer. The designer had abstractly theorized that much of the x server software could be moved over to the 34020, but the software team wasn't too keen on supporting two different processors. I redesigned the framebuffer board and made the connection between the i860 and the framebuffer synchronous, and added support for using the block write mode of the VRAM. Problem solved. BTW, the rasterizer did gouraud shading at two pixels per clock at 40 MHz. The framebuffer logic was responsible for checking the window ID plane (8b) and doing the Z buffer compare and update. The framebuffer was 80b deep. Not too bad for 1992. The system was wildly expensive as compared to the SGI Indigo, which had the advantage of using ASICs instead of TTL. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Dec 11 01:27:49 2006 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:27:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: video of CRT implosion? In-Reply-To: <20061211060732.NHRI24907.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <20061211060732.NHRI24907.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > Hi, I've been looking for videos of the CRT implosion without the > safety or safety devices defeated. > > Just wanted to see this is like. I have heard of stories about > "exploding" CRTs in old days and sometimes with modern CRTs. Someone made a video of monitors being shot during the Defcon Shoot. I don't know where it went. Maybe 23.org has it squirreled away somewhere. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pdp11 at saccade.com Mon Dec 11 01:27:15 2006 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:27:15 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20061210231517.03c0b6d0@mail.saccade.com> Well, it took a few years, but I finally brought my PDP-11/70 panel back to life: http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/PDP11/PDP-11.html I'm afraid I don't have the space or power (or noise tolerance!) to have the real thing around. Has anybody else brought panels back to life? I'm aware of the Spare Time Gizmos / Ersatz-11 work, and of course the incredible "Gallery of Old Iron". Any others? http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/KY11_Interface.htm http://www.thegalleryofoldiron.com/ Cheers, jp ps - An open thanks to Tom Uban for sending me the schematics - that was a big help. From henk.gooijen at oce.com Mon Dec 11 01:37:32 2006 From: henk.gooijen at oce.com (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:37:32 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20061210231517.03c0b6d0@mail.saccade.com> Message-ID: <447524F844B59D48B8F7AE7F560935EE0848818F@OVL-EXBE01.ocevenlo.oce.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of J. Peterson > Sent: maandag 11 december 2006 8:27 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life > > Well, it took a few years, but I finally brought my PDP-11/70 > panel back to > life: > > http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/PDP11/PDP-11.html > > I'm afraid I don't have the space or power (or noise > tolerance!) to have the real thing around. Has anybody else > brought panels back to life? I'm aware of the Spare Time > Gizmos / Ersatz-11 work, and of course the incredible > "Gallery of Old Iron". Any others? > > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/KY11_Interface.htm > http://www.thegalleryofoldiron.com/ > > Cheers, > jp > > ps - An open thanks to Tom Uban for sending me the schematics > - that was a big help. Have a look in www.pdp-11.nl/ in the folder "My projects", or, for an 11/70 console, direct at www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/cons1170/cons70startpage.html I am going to read your pages right now! Nice to know that I am not alone :-) greetz, - Henk. This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. From jrr at flippers.com Sun Dec 10 16:38:00 2006 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 14:38:00 -0800 Subject: 1702 EPROM's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:30 AM -0500 12/10/06, Fixer7526 at wmconnect.com wrote: >Hello, > > Would you please post the following message. > > I am looking for someone who can copy 1702 EPROM's. Contact me at >Fixer7526 at wmconnect.com . > > Thanks, > > Alan > There is a company in San Francisco that copies 1702s very inexpensively. http://www.demoboard.com/anchor.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> They are located at: >>>>>> >>>>>> Anchor Electronics >>>>>> 2040 Walsh Ave >>>>>> Santa Clara, Ca 95050 >>>>>> (408) 727-3693 John :-#)# From jrr at flippers.com Sun Dec 10 16:41:41 2006 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 14:41:41 -0800 Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:18 PM +0100 12/10/06, Christian Corti wrote: >Hello, > >does anybody have bits for the TI 960B (not 960A) minicomputer, e.g. >software, schematics etc. ? I'd like to get this system running >again. > >Thanks, >Christian What is the CPU? you can pick up Fluke 9010/9100s Microprocessor tester and the TI9900 CPU pod quite reasonably... John :-#)# From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Dec 11 03:00:18 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 06:00:18 -0300 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) References: Message-ID: <040e01c71d02$d9b92c80$f0fea8c0@alpha> > Does anyone have equipment that utilizes this chip or have an > opportunity to work with them directly? MANY arcade boards (Mortal Kombat and many Midway games comes to mind) uses them From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 11 02:05:57 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 00:05:57 -0800 Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: References: <457CB284.4070406@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <457D1165.8070904@shiresoft.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> Just out of curiosity, what's your procedure for cleaning them? > > The proper procedure is to pay $50 for one of the legacy disk vendors > to clean them correctly. Yea, and with 200+ packs...that's $10,000+...I think I'll do it myself. -- TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Dec 11 02:13:56 2006 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 00:13:56 -0800 Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457D1344.308@shiresoft.com> Richard wrote: > In article <457CB284.4070406 at shiresoft.com>, > Guy Sotomayor writes: > > >> [...] Cleaning a pack takes about 20 >> minutes (including disassembly and reassembly) so don't expect these to >> be done quickly. >> > > Just out of curiosity, what's your procedure for cleaning them? > See Lyle's reply below. It's not really that hard. I usually clean the outside of the pack first to get as much crud off of the pack before I split it open. I then remove the screws that hold the two halves of the pack (every other one around...2 passes and all of the screws are out). Since the pack is upside down to remove the screws I then remove the bottom cover. At this point the platter can be removed. I use 99.9% alcohol and lint free cloths. Having the platter exposed allows for careful inspection of the surfaces. I'm *very* conservative about the condition of the platter. I've rejected a number of platters already because of scratches, groves, burnt oxide, etc. I then clean the inside of the pack (usually just blow air). Reassembly is the reverse of disassembly(tm). > Is there a similar procedure that should be done for RL01 disk packs? > I have an automatic pack cleaner for RL01/02 packs. -- TTFN - Guy From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Dec 11 02:21:22 2006 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 03:21:22 -0500 Subject: Stiction Message-ID: <01C71CD3.8E805240@mse-d03> -----------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 13:36:20 -0500 From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: Stiction But you mentioned "225"...As in Seagate ST-225? I've never heard of stiction problems with those (I have used quite a few of them, and I currently have a few in DEC machines as RD-31s)...I wasn't aware that they could develop such problems. I will keep an eye on mine! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL ---------------Reply: Oops; I also mentioned ST-225s as having stiction problems, but I meant ST-125s and ST-251s; although I've had my share of other problems with ST-225s and 238s, stiction wasn't one of them. mike From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 03:18:17 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:18:17 +1300 Subject: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20061210231517.03c0b6d0@mail.saccade.com> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20061210231517.03c0b6d0@mail.saccade.com> Message-ID: On 12/11/06, J. Peterson wrote: > Well, it took a few years, but I finally brought my PDP-11/70 panel back to > life: > > http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/PDP11/PDP-11.html Nice. > I'm afraid I don't have the space or power (or noise tolerance!) to have > the real thing around. I have the space and power for an 11/70, and, oddly enough, there's an 11/70 in it (and one next to that ;-) > Has anybody else brought panels back to life? I have a real 11/70 panel that was free from Jay West after he stripped off all the useful switches from it... my first goal is to get it working as blinky lights on a real 11/70, then start shopping around for replacement switches and toggles to get it back in service. I figure it might take a bit of looking for donor parts, off of, say, two other broken panels, but it's not too hard a task to accomplish. Enjoy the panel - real blinkylights are lots of fun. -ethan From cc at corti-net.de Mon Dec 11 04:17:45 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:17:45 +0100 (CET) Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Dec 2006, John Robertson wrote: > At 8:18 PM +0100 12/10/06, Christian Corti wrote: >> does anybody have bits for the TI 960B (not 960A) minicomputer, e.g. >> software, schematics etc. ? I'd like to get this system running again. > What is the CPU? you can pick up Fluke 9010/9100s Microprocessor tester and > the TI9900 CPU pod quite reasonably... It's simple, the CPU is called TI 960. No (single-chip) microprocessor. It predates the TMS9900 but influenced its development. I think the TI 960 was largely used in process control applications. Christian From cc at corti-net.de Mon Dec 11 05:24:16 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:24:16 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tektronix 4010 In-Reply-To: <200612110256.kBB2uNS29172@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> References: <200612110256.kBB2uNS29172@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Dec 2006 djg at pdp8.net wrote: > Yet another project not completed. I have stuck the raw scans of > that section in with the rest at ftp://ftp.pdp8.net/misc/4010/ I will try > to clean them up next weekend. I think I found all the files from that > section but if not email me and I will find them. Thank you very much! The quality of your scans is really good. > Before I forgot about it I was debating on the best way to deal with the > foldout pages in that section. The big foldout pages in this manual > frequently had two separate drawings. Would people prefer that they be on > one big pages like the real manual or on two separate pages so viewing > and printing will be easier for people who can't print on the foldout size > paper? Good question. I usually prefer one big page so I can print everything on one A4 sheet (scaled down) or A3 sheet in original size. Christian From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Dec 11 08:44:54 2006 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:44:54 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.5.2.20061210231517.03c0b6d0@mail.saccade.com> References: <5.1.1.5.2.20061210231517.03c0b6d0@mail.saccade.com> Message-ID: <457D6EE6.4000203@ubanproductions.com> Nice work! Happy to have been able to help. --tom J. Peterson wrote: > Well, it took a few years, but I finally brought my PDP-11/70 panel back > to life: > > http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/PDP11/PDP-11.html > > I'm afraid I don't have the space or power (or noise tolerance!) to have > the real thing around. Has anybody else brought panels back to life? > I'm aware of the Spare Time Gizmos / Ersatz-11 work, and of course the > incredible "Gallery of Old Iron". Any others? > > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/KY11_Interface.htm > http://www.thegalleryofoldiron.com/ > > Cheers, > jp > > ps - An open thanks to Tom Uban for sending me the schematics - that was > a big help. > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 11 09:25:12 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 10:25:12 -0500 Subject: Cleaning disk packs (was: RK05 images) In-Reply-To: References: <457CB284.4070406@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <79F5117D-8D31-4B38-8462-59E0CAE3E99D@neurotica.com> On Dec 10, 2006, at 10:47 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Just out of curiosity, what's your procedure for cleaning them? > > The proper procedure is to pay $50 for one of the legacy disk vendors > to clean them correctly. Wow, how nicely self-sufficient! Unless those legacy disk vendors employ true old-timers to handle their disk cleaning services, chances are good that people here know more about RK05s than they do. I buy KimWipes by the case on eBay...I'll clean my own damn packs, thank you. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 09:20:11 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:20:11 -0700 Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Dec 2006 00:13:56 -0800. <457D1344.308@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: In article <457D1344.308 at shiresoft.com>, Guy Sotomayor writes: > > Is there a similar procedure that should be done for RL01 disk packs? > > > I have an automatic pack cleaner for RL01/02 packs. Really?! What's that look like? How did you come across one? Do you have photos? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Dec 11 09:27:28 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 10:27:28 -0500 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 10, 2006, at 10:41 PM, Richard wrote: > Talking of DSPs reminded me of the graphics chips family that TI > created in the mid 80s, the TMS34010 was the first part. > > Does anyone have equipment that utilizes this chip or have an > opportunity to work with them directly? > > It was a chip I read about a lot, but didn't get around to using > myself. I'm in the same boat...I drooled over it quite a bit, I think I even have a 340x0-family databook somewhere. Maybe I'll throw something together with one someday. It really did look like a neat chip. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From kth at srv.net Mon Dec 11 09:57:31 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:57:31 -0700 Subject: Followup: Hazeltine "Computer" In-Reply-To: <457B54C0.26841.5722977@cclist.sydex.com> References: <457B54C0.26841.5722977@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <457D7FEB.1060902@srv.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: >Bottom line is that I have nothing to contribute to the "Hazeltime >Computer" legend--and, with the discovery of the ADDS terminal code, >don't even know why the customer insisted on calling it a Hazeltine >(but he did--I found the letter in my files. > > It may be that the customer used, at one time, a computer with a Hazeltime terminal. Not being a "real" computer literate person, that is what he called the computer. I have people at several sites using a VAX/VMS system, and they all seem to want to call it "kermit". I've given up correcting them. >So--shrug! My guess is that the "computer, given the date" may have >been housed in the same box as the floppy drives.--and that a >Hazeltine terminal was connected to it. > >But I didn't think that a Hazeltine had cotnrol sequences anything >like an ADDS Viewpoint. > > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 09:31:51 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:31:51 -0700 Subject: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Dec 2006 00:25:13 -0600. <457CF9C9.8010603@pacbell.net> Message-ID: In article <457CF9C9.8010603 at pacbell.net>, Jim Battle writes: > I worked at a start up called ShoGraphics, 1991-1993. I have a lot of > stories about the place, but that is another topic. ShoGraphics made an > xterm with hardware accelerated PEX (Phigs Extension for X). Here is a > link that google coughed up: [...] Hey, now that you mention it, I remember the name ShoGraphics :-). I don't suppose you lucked into any ShoGraphics hardware? At the time I was working at E&S and we competed with ShoGraphics; the ESV was a PEX implementation. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Dec 11 10:33:59 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:33:59 +0100 (CET) Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: <457D1344.308@shiresoft.com> References: <457D1344.308@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <24446.88.211.153.27.1165854839.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > > > Richard wrote: >> In article <457CB284.4070406 at shiresoft.com>, >> Guy Sotomayor writes: >> >> >>> [...] Cleaning a pack takes about 20 >>> minutes (including disassembly and reassembly) so don't expect these to >>> be done quickly. >>> >> >> Just out of curiosity, what's your procedure for cleaning them? >> > See Lyle's reply below. It's not really that hard. I usually clean the > outside of the pack first to get as much crud off of the pack before I > split it open. I then remove the screws that hold the two halves of the > pack (every other one around...2 passes and all of the screws are out). > Since the pack is upside down to remove the screws I then remove the > bottom cover. At this point the platter can be removed. I use 99.9% > alcohol and lint free cloths. Having the platter exposed allows for > careful inspection of the surfaces. I'm *very* conservative about the > condition of the platter. I've rejected a number of platters already > because of scratches, groves, burnt oxide, etc. I then clean the inside > of the pack (usually just blow air). Reassembly is the reverse of > disassembly(tm). >> Is there a similar procedure that should be done for RL01 disk packs? >> > I have an automatic pack cleaner for RL01/02 packs. > I have one for RK05 cartridges. Very funny to see it in operation, a little arm with cleanin pads attached to it move very slowely out and in while the disk spins at around 3 - 5 rpm. Ed From ceby2 at csc.com Mon Dec 11 10:44:45 2006 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:44:45 +0000 Subject: Dr. Hopper's 100 birthday In-Reply-To: <200612111609.kBBG8tK1050914@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: All -- Saw this blurb on BBC News and thought I'd flag it to the rest of you. 9 December was the 100th anniversary of Dr. Grace Hopper's birthday. All hail Mother COBOL: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6168489.stm Regards, Colin Eby -- ceby2 at csc.com CSC - EMEA Northern Region - C&SI -Technology Architect -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 11 11:03:41 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 09:03:41 -0800 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) Message-ID: <457D8F6D.8080409@bitsavers.org> > Does anyone have equipment that utilizes this chip or have an > opportunity to work with them directly? In the PC world, there was the TI TGA card. I've seen them most often in arcade games. Several vendors used them, including a couple of generations of Atari hardware (Hard Drivin', etc.) Apple built an evaluation card for the 340x0 when we were deciding on how to implement accelerated graphics cards. The decision was to use a 29000 processor (the 8*24 GC card). From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Dec 11 11:08:50 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:08:50 -0500 Subject: Dr. Hopper's 100 birthday In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 11 Dec 2006 16:44:45 GMT." Message-ID: <200612111708.kBBH8odo003745@mwave.heeltoe.com> Colin Eby wrote: >All -- > >Saw this blurb on BBC News and thought I'd flag it to the rest of you. 9 >December was the 100th anniversary of Dr. Grace Hopper's birthday. All >hail Mother COBOL: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6168489.stm I saw her speak once, where she handed out "nanoseconds" and talked with people afterward. It was very memorable. She was quite inspirational. I'll never forget her talking about just doing things rather than asking for permission, and her (now) famous quote on that. She had great stories about the military and computing. She also (if I remember correctly) had some interesting anecdotes about drum memory and code timing - I've seen other people comment on that here. -brad From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 11 11:14:47 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 09:14:47 -0800 Subject: Texas Instruments 960B Message-ID: <457D9207.9060606@bitsavers.org> > does anybody have bits for the TI 960B (not 960A) minicomputer, e.g. > software, schematics etc. ? I have some additional material on the 960 that isn't up yet on bitsavers. The 960 and 980 share some peripheral interfaces. Did you end up with the 990 system as well? From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 10:54:27 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 09:54:27 -0700 Subject: Followup: Hazeltine "Computer" In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Dec 2006 08:57:31 -0700. <457D7FEB.1060902@srv.net> Message-ID: In article <457D7FEB.1060902 at srv.net>, Kevin Handy writes: > It may be that the customer used, at one time, a computer > with a Hazeltime terminal. Not being a "real" computer > literate person, that is what he called the computer. When questioned, the poster insisted it was a computer and not a terminal. Since he didn't post a close-up picture of the connectors, its hard to say. He swears he remembers connecting disk drives to the Hazeltine. As others pointed out, once you get a microprocessor based terminal you're only a storage system away from a microcomputer. Hell, the ZX81 feels like this -- it has just enough CPU power to keep the screen refreshed. When you made the CPU work harder, the refresh suffered. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 10:55:51 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 09:55:51 -0700 Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:33:59 +0100. <24446.88.211.153.27.1165854839.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: In article <24446.88.211.153.27.1165854839.squirrel at webmail.xs4all.nl>, "Ed Groenenberg" writes: > > I have an automatic pack cleaner for RL01/02 packs. > > > > I have one for RK05 cartridges. > Very funny to see it in operation, a little arm with cleanin pads attached > to it move very slowely out and in while the disk spins at around 3 - 5 rpm. So as a user of modern hard drives this just sounds inredible to me. I take it that older disk packs, while still fragile, are less susceptible to minor surface abrasians caused by the cleaning pads swiping the dirt off? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cc at corti-net.de Mon Dec 11 12:06:06 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:06:06 +0100 (CET) Subject: Texas Instruments 960B In-Reply-To: <457D9207.9060606@bitsavers.org> References: <457D9207.9060606@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Dec 2006, Al Kossow wrote: > I have some additional material on the 960 that isn't up yet on bitsavers. > The 960 and 980 share some peripheral interfaces. Good to know. > Did you end up with the 990 system as well? Yes, it's a 990/10 with 192kB RAM along with a FD800 dual floppy disk drive and a DS10 cartridge disk drive, all mounted into an original TI rack. The system needs heavy cleaning, but I'm confident that we will be able to make it running again, it appears to be a nice system. Christian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 12:10:25 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:10:25 -0500 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: <457D8F6D.8080409@bitsavers.org> References: <457D8F6D.8080409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > In the PC world, there was the TI TGA card. NEC used to make a TIGA card as well - I used to have (and use) one. I may still have it. -- Will From kth at srv.net Mon Dec 11 12:20:43 2006 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:20:43 -0700 Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457DA17B.8010000@srv.net> Richard wrote: > So as a user of modern hard drives this just sounds inredible to me. > >I take it that older disk packs, while still fragile, are less >susceptible to minor surface abrasians caused by the cleaning pads >swiping the dirt off? > > These older disk packs were NOT sealed units, and the bit density is a lot lower than you see on modern disk drives. If you put "magna-view" on those platters, you could probably read off the data just using your eyeballs, or maybe a cheap magnifing glass, when it isn't being used to fry ants. The surface abrasions that a cleaning pad would make were unlikely to cause any problems; while the hair, dirt, dust, bugs, spider webs, flaking oxides, etc., that were frequently found in drive packs, were a frequent cause of problems. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 11 12:26:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 10:26:52 -0800 Subject: Followup: Hazeltine "Computer" In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <457D326C.7563.CBC0ACA@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Dec 2006 at 9:54, Richard wrote: > As others pointed out, once you get a microprocessor based terminal > you're only a storage system away from a microcomputer. Hell, the > ZX81 feels like this -- it has just enough CPU power to keep the > screen refreshed. When you made the CPU work harder, the refresh > suffered. ...and if you've got a box with floppy drives in it, you're only a processor away from a minicomputer. The point is that there are some 5.25" drive boxes with little that would give you a clue that there was also a CPU board in the same box. I've got several sample diskettes in my collection that show that they're for an Ampro board buried in someone else's box. Cheers, Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 11 12:39:33 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:39:33 -0600 Subject: Followup: Hazeltine "Computer" References: >, <457D326C.7563.CBC0ACA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <002f01c71d53$b51805d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> I can't tell you how many of my customers that used HP-UX on HP9000 series boxes would call me for support and when I asked them what kind of computer they had (because we supported HP-UX, Microdata, Prime, GA, etc.) they would say a WYSE-50. They knew full well that the terminal was just a terminal to their system, but they assumed the lable referred to the whole computer. We got a lot of warranty/registration cards back for our software package where computer type was listed as ADDS Viewpoint, etc. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Dec 11 12:41:43 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:41:43 -0600 Subject: Cleaning disk packs References: Message-ID: <007201c71d54$03795490$6500a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote... > Really?! What's that look like? How did you come across one? > Do you have photos? :-) I've seen a few go through ebay. They do show up from time to time and aren't terribly uncommon. Jay From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 11 12:46:04 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 10:46:04 -0800 Subject: Cleaning disk packs Message-ID: <457DA76C.4030507@bitsavers.org> > If you put > "magna-view" on those platters, you could probably read off the > data just using your eyeballs, or maybe a cheap magnifing glass The bit density of an RK05 is 2200 bpi. Know what you are talking about before saying something stupid like this. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 11 12:48:37 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 10:48:37 -0800 Subject: Cleaning disk packs Message-ID: <457DA805.1020107@bitsavers.org> >> Really?! What's that look like? How did you come across one? >> Do you have photos? :-) > >I've seen a few go through ebay. They do show up from time to time and >aren't terribly uncommon. Nor are they particularly useful. They are better at contaminating packs than cleaning them. Visual inspection and cleaning is absolutely essential when working with 20+ year old unknown media. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 11 12:55:41 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:55:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: <457D1344.308@shiresoft.com> from "Guy Sotomayor" at Dec 11, 6 00:13:56 am Message-ID: > See Lyle's reply below. It's not really that hard. I usually clean the > outside of the pack first to get as much crud off of the pack before I > split it open. I then remove the screws that hold the two halves of the > pack (every other one around...2 passes and all of the screws are out). I don;t think it matters, since the outer casing performs no function in aligning or even supporting the platter when the disk is in the drive, but I;d undo them working 'across the centre'. That is, if the screws are numbered 1 to 8 going round the pack (IIRC there are 8 screws), I'd undo them in the order 1, 5, 3, 7, 2, 6, 4, 8 > Since the pack is upside down to remove the screws I then remove the > bottom cover. At this point the platter can be removed. I use 99.9% > alcohol and lint free cloths. Having the platter exposed allows for > careful inspection of the surfaces. I'm *very* conservative about the > condition of the platter. I've rejected a number of platters already > because of scratches, groves, burnt oxide, etc. I then clean the inside > of the pack (usually just blow air). Reassembly is the reverse of > disassembly(tm). One thing that the manual mentions is that when you insert a screw, turn it anticlockwise (counterclockwise) until you feel the threads engage and then do it up. Not just to avoid stripping the threads if the screw cuts a new thread in the plastic, but also to prevent debris from being produced by cutting the thread. Don't remove the platter from the hub. You'll lose the centring (which can,, in therory, be set up using a clock gage with the ub mounted on the drive's spindle, turned by hand), but you'll also lose the rotational alingment between the data on the disk and the sector notches on the hub (thse packs are hard-sectored). And handle the disk by the hub. Handling by the edges is much more likely to get grease from your fingers onto the platter surfaces. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 11 12:45:23 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:45:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 10, 6 08:41:08 pm Message-ID: > > > Talking of DSPs reminded me of the graphics chips family that TI > created in the mid 80s, the TMS34010 was the first part. > > Does anyone have equipment that utilizes this chip or have an > opportunity to work with them directly? Yes. I have something that calls itself an 'Ultra-X', I assume it's some fairly early X-terminal. Physically, it's a pizza-box sized unit, and take a VGA monitor (standard DE15 connector), PC-like keyboard (5 pin DIN connecotr),serial mouse (DE9). I think it has serial and ethernet (AUI and thinwire) interfaces to the host. Anyway, it uses a 34010. In fact the X server runs on the 34010 (there's a daughterboasrd full of EPROMs that contain the Xserver and fonts, this is connected only to the 34010 bus). There's also an 808118 for I/O -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 11 13:29:05 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:29:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cleaning disk packs (was: RK05 images) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Dec 10, 6 10:47:49 pm Message-ID: > > > Just out of curiosity, what's your procedure for cleaning them? > > The proper procedure is to pay $50 for one of the legacy disk vendors > to clean them correctly. In my case that would mean finding several thousand dollars, money which I quite simply don't have (not 'don't have spare', just 'don't hace'). More seriously, the RK05 maintenance manual gives a procedure for cleaning the packs. It is clear that they were sonsidered cleanable by field servoids, and I am darn sure if they can do it then so can I. In fact many of us here do things that were not considered to be perfomrable in the field, and have no problems. Now, the manuals for the RLs and RK06/07 specificially warn against cleaning the packs by hand. I would guess the higher bit density of those drives implies a lower flying height of the heads, and thus more likelyhood of a headcrash if you damaga the platter surface in cleaning. However, I do wonder if it is possivle to do it youself, and if so, what to do. Remmeber many of us have facilities, tools and equipment that would not have been avaialbe to the average customer or even field service, And of course relying on some other company to keep a classic computer running is fine until said company goes out of business because we're the only people still needing it (let's be realisitic here, there are not enough of us to keep a compnay in business providing a service to us alone). At that point you hae to do it yourself. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 11 13:23:33 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:23:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: <24446.88.211.153.27.1165854839.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> from "Ed Groenenberg" at Dec 11, 6 05:33:59 pm Message-ID: > > I have an automatic pack cleaner for RL01/02 packs. > > > > I have one for RK05 cartridges. > Very funny to see it in operation, a little arm with cleanin pads attached > to it move very slowely out and in while the disk spins at around 3 - 5 rpm. If that's the official DEC one, then the one for RL packs is the same apart from the bits that hold the pack (they are quite hard to tell apart, therefore). I found that out the hard way when scavenging with a friend, we foudn 2 of the machines, assumed they were the same and took one each. He got the TK05 one, I got the RL one... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 11 13:44:32 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:44:32 -0800 Subject: OT: Vintage radio opinion Message-ID: <457D44A0.23990.D032B33@cclist.sydex.com> While going through my dustpile, I came across this communications receiver front end: http://www.sydex.com/images/fe.jpg I vaguely remember picking it up in the 60's on Chicago's S. Michigan Ave. "Radio Row" (as boxed new surplus) and that I hooked it up long enough to determine that the IF output is 1600 KHz (or should I say KC?). It's undoubtedly part of some dual-conversion receiver--I suspect something like a Heathkit, but that's just a guess. Tube lineup is 12AT7, 6CS6 and 6BZ6. My question is if this is something worth selling or if I'm likely to lose my 65 cents eBay listing fee. Any additional information from someone who recognizes this would be welcome. Cheers, Chuck From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 13:59:10 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 11:59:10 -0800 Subject: OT: Vintage radio opinion In-Reply-To: <457D44A0.23990.D032B33@cclist.sydex.com> References: <457D44A0.23990.D032B33@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/11/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > While going through my dustpile, I came across this communications > receiver front end: > > http://www.sydex.com/images/fe.jpg > > I vaguely remember picking it up in the 60's on Chicago's S. Michigan > Ave. "Radio Row" (as boxed new surplus) and that I hooked it up long > enough to determine that the IF output is 1600 KHz (or should I say > KC?). It's undoubtedly part of some dual-conversion receiver--I > suspect something like a Heathkit, but that's just a guess. > > Tube lineup is 12AT7, 6CS6 and 6BZ6. > > My question is if this is something worth selling or if I'm likely to It surely worth selling. The 3 gang air capacitor worths $10 at least. I noticed another two air capacitors and numerous coils too. vax, 9000 lose my 65 cents eBay listing fee. Any additional information from > someone who recognizes this would be welcome. Cheers, > Chuck > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 11 14:32:21 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:32:21 -0800 Subject: OT: Vintage radio opinion In-Reply-To: References: <457D44A0.23990.D032B33@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <457D4FD5.6389.D2EF196@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Dec 2006 at 11:59, 9000 VAX wrote: > It surely worth selling. The 3 gang air capacitor worths $10 at least. > I noticed another two air capacitors and numerous coils too. It's actually a 6-gang cap--2 gang per section... Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 11 14:32:57 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 12:32:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Targa/TIGA/??? was Re: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: <457CF9C9.8010603@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20061211203257.73693.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> I remember there being a product by AT & T which was capable of manipulationg "microdots" (micropels?, thereby creating screen resolutions much greater then was common in those days. It was a boardset and may have been built around the 34010 (not sure about that though - I think the product was called Targa, and I could have confused Targa and TIGA). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Dec 11 14:38:27 2006 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:38:27 -0600 Subject: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457DC1C3.2020608@pacbell.net> Richard wrote: > In article <457CF9C9.8010603 at pacbell.net>, > Jim Battle writes: > >> I worked at a start up called ShoGraphics, 1991-1993. I have a lot of >> stories about the place, but that is another topic. ShoGraphics made an >> xterm with hardware accelerated PEX (Phigs Extension for X). Here is a >> link that google coughed up: [...] > > Hey, now that you mention it, I remember the name ShoGraphics :-). I > don't suppose you lucked into any ShoGraphics hardware? > > At the time I was working at E&S and we competed with ShoGraphics; the > ESV was a PEX implementation. I was at work one afternoon when the sheriff came to the door and announced they would be back on the following monday with chains and padlocks and that we should remove any of our personal belongings. There was a hasty auction of lab tools and furniture and who knows what came of the rest of it. One of the software developers bought a system for a song, but as far as I know, he was the only one who bothered. Even though I had some of my own blood, sweat, and tears in the system, I have little nostalgia for that one. It was a poorly run company that deserved to die. From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Dec 11 15:13:38 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:13:38 +0100 (CET) Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: <457DA805.1020107@bitsavers.org> References: <457DA805.1020107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <11243.88.211.153.27.1165871618.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > >> Really?! What's that look like? How did you come across one? > >> Do you have photos? :-) > > > >I've seen a few go through ebay. They do show up from time to time and > >aren't terribly uncommon. > > Nor are they particularly useful. > > They are better at contaminating packs than cleaning them. > > Visual inspection and cleaning is absolutely essential when working with > 20+ year old unknown media. > > > Yes, that's why I only used it once on analready damaged pack to see how it works. Guy's approach is better, and you can see if the pack is usable or not. Cleaning it with the 'wasching machine' does not allow you to inspect the surface that well to judge it. Ed From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Dec 11 15:18:36 2006 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:18:36 +0100 (CET) Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23064.88.211.153.27.1165871916.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> >> > I have an automatic pack cleaner for RL01/02 packs. >> > >> >> I have one for RK05 cartridges. >> Very funny to see it in operation, a little arm with cleanin pads >> attached >> to it move very slowely out and in while the disk spins at around 3 - 5 >> rpm. > > If that's the official DEC one, then the one for RL packs is the same > apart from the bits that hold the pack (they are quite hard to tell > apart, therefore). I found that out the hard way when scavenging with a > friend, we foudn 2 of the machines, assumed they were the same and took > one each. He got the TK05 one, I got the RL one... > > -tony > > It is the official DEC one (grey plastic, about 60 by 60 cm). When I found it, it came with 2 boxes of pads and three sealed iso-propyl containers. The iso-propyl did vaporise through the seals over time. Ed From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 15:36:35 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:36:35 -0700 Subject: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:38:27 -0600. <457DC1C3.2020608@pacbell.net> Message-ID: In article <457DC1C3.2020608 at pacbell.net>, Jim Battle writes: > Even though I had some of my own blood, sweat, and tears in the system, > I have little nostalgia for that one. It was a poorly run company that > deserved to die. Contrast to E&S, which was a poorly run company that didn't deserve to die, but seems to be managing it anyway. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 15:35:16 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:35:16 -0700 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:45:23 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Yes. I have something that calls itself an 'Ultra-X', I assume it's some > fairly early X-terminal. [...] I don't think its so early; the earliest X terminals used custom monitor, mouse and keyboard connections. They didn't start using standard VGA/PS2 style connections until the mid to late 90s. By this point, *noone* uses a weird monitor/keyboard/mouse connection for the "thin client" style boxes. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 15:38:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:38:44 -0700 Subject: Cleaning disk packs (was: RK05 images) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:29:05 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > Now, the manuals for the RLs and RK06/07 specificially warn against > cleaning the packs by hand. [...] Whats the density of an RL01 compared to an RK05? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Dec 11 15:49:38 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:49:38 -0600 Subject: video monitors available - Evanston, Illinois In-Reply-To: <200612101800.kBAI09l2034797@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612101800.kBAI09l2034797@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: All, At 12:00 -0600 12/10/06, Jack wrote: >I've got about a dozen Sony Trinitron PVM-1380 color video monitors >available. These are dual-channel composite video/mono audio - great for >use with your Apple ][, Atari 800, Commodore 64, etc. Very nice >commercial grade in very good condition. Removed from our school >language lab, so may be "personalized" cosmetically but nothing >objectionable. > >Free for pickup - I will not ship but I can store them through January. >Any remainder will be scrapped in February. > >Located in Evanston, Illinois. > >Jack >847.424.7320 work Sigh. I have a Co-Co 3 and an Apple][. Using TV's so far, better resolution would be nice. I'm in San Antonio, TX, 78254, and will not be able to pick up a monitor. a) Anybody near Evanston planning to talk to Jack about one of these? b) Anybody in category a) willing to pak/n/ship one for me, for 1.2 * packing and shipping cost or similar? c) any idea what shipping will run? I'm guessing order of $40 or so? -- Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) 210-379-4635 Dwarf Phone, 210-522-6025 Office Phone From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Dec 11 15:49:18 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:49:18 -0800 Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457DD25E.7090505@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: >In article <457CB284.4070406 at shiresoft.com>, > Guy Sotomayor writes: > > > >>[...] Cleaning a pack takes about 20 >>minutes (including disassembly and reassembly) so don't expect these to >>be done quickly. >> >> > > > Disassembling any pack I saw most usually resulted in a destroyed drive. The packs even at $1000 ea were way cheaper than the drives, so if any cleaning required something approaching disassembly of the stack, you tossed it (and let some classiccmp collector like me hoard it for 20+ years then sell it on ebay as "unknown NOS" or such :-) anyway, I bought a pack inspector which has a number of spindles, which can release the cover, and allow the pack to be moved manually with precision, and it also has two mirror units which will allow you to view the surface w/o any disassembly. There is no motor, only manual moving of the pack, but they did have a catch which allows you to have a reference when you pass the same place in the rotation, other than that it free spins. There is also a light source, and another attachment that allows you to mount a micrometer with a feeler to check for out of round, or bent platters. when I had a pack cleaned, they used this sort of unit in a clean room to clean and certify the pack (in the early 80's time frame). Jim From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 11 15:51:15 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:51:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: rare Aussie portable "Portapak" on eBay Message-ID: <20061211215115.47950.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1983-Aussie-luggable-Portapak-Z80B-Cpu_W0QQitemZ170057797752QQihZ007QQcategoryZ1247QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem don't mean to push loads of eBay stuff, and believe me I have no relation to the seller. But history is just that, and eBay is often a source of it. Rugged looking little piece of work. Well suited for the Outback LOL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Dec 11 15:51:47 2006 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:51:47 -0600 Subject: multiple cpu machines Re: rogues galleries In-Reply-To: <200611291417.kATEH7hc014493@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200611291417.kATEH7hc014493@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Day late and a dollar short.... As Tony Duell said, DEC Rainbow, 2 CPU's, Z-80 + 8088, possibly count the 7220 graphics processor, so 2 or maybe 3 CPU's. (hangs head in shame) Oh yeah! (head comes back up) AlphaServer 2100, 3 CPU cards ... but all three the same Alpha 4/275 CPU. Sigh. NeXT cube, 68040 + DSP56000 + i860 (on NeXTDimension card) .... ... but then it's not supported to get the i860 to do anything but drive graphics, so that doesn't count - back to 2 CPU's. (head hangs again) oh well. -- Mark Tapley, Dwarf Engineer (I haven't cleared my neighborhood) 210-379-4635 Dwarf Phone, 210-522-6025 Office Phone From pechter at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 17:02:47 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:02:47 -0500 Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: <457DD25E.7090505@msm.umr.edu> References: <457DD25E.7090505@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: RK05' s are fairly easy to clean. I cleaned a couple of 'em for my 11/23 with some texwipes and 97% isopropyl alcohol. DEC used to have techsleeves that went over the top of a plastic applicator and I also used them when saturated with alcohol -- to clean the RK05 packs. Never had a problem on my packs... also did the RK05F pack. Bill On 12/11/06, jim stephens wrote: > > Richard wrote: > > >In article <457CB284.4070406 at shiresoft.com>, > > Guy Sotomayor writes: > > > > > > > >>[...] Cleaning a pack takes about 20 > >>minutes (including disassembly and reassembly) so don't expect these to > >>be done quickly. > >> > >> > > > > > > > Disassembling any pack I saw most usually resulted in a destroyed > drive. The packs > even at $1000 ea were way cheaper than the drives, so if any cleaning > required something > approaching disassembly of the stack, you tossed it (and let some > classiccmp collector > like me hoard it for 20+ years then sell it on ebay as "unknown NOS" or > such :-) > > anyway, I bought a pack inspector which has a number of spindles, which > can release > the cover, and allow the pack to be moved manually with precision, and > it also has > two mirror units which will allow you to view the surface w/o any > disassembly. > > There is no motor, only manual moving of the pack, but they did have a > catch which > allows you to have a reference when you pass the same place in the > rotation, other than > that it free spins. There is also a light source, and another > attachment that allows you to > mount a micrometer with a feeler to check for out of round, or bent > platters. > > when I had a pack cleaned, they used this sort of unit in a clean room > to clean and > certify the pack (in the early 80's time frame). > > Jim > > From kelly at catcorner.org Mon Dec 11 17:24:39 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:24:39 -0500 Subject: Targa/TIGA/??? was Re: TMS340x0 Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E303621F@MEOW.catcorner.org> > -----Original Message----- > On Behalf Of Chris M > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 3:33 PM > > I remember there being a product by AT & T which was > capable of manipulationg "microdots" (micropels?, > thereby creating screen resolutions much greater then > was common in those days. It was a boardset and may > have been built around the 34010 (not sure about that > though - I think the product was called Targa, and I > could have confused Targa and TIGA). I remeber the AT&T TARGA. Output was to a RGB monitor. Input via tablet with a puck and a wand. They had it running on a Wyse PC/286. I wrote a converter to the Amiga IFF and PC GIF, but I can't find the source any more. I worked at the video lab for the County College of Morris (in New Jersey) back in 90-92. They also had some SGI stuff and some film printers for the PC. All networked via ethernet. Pretty advanced for a community college. Kelly From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Dec 11 14:01:22 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:01:22 +0000 Subject: Cleaning disk packs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457DB912.8010707@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Now, the manuals for the RLs and RK06/07 specificially warn against > cleaning the packs by hand. I would guess the higher bit density of > those drives implies a lower flying height of the heads, and thus more > likelyhood of a headcrash if you damaga the platter surface in cleaning. > However, I do wonder if it is possivle to do it youself, and if so, what > to do. Remmeber many of us have facilities, tools and equipment that > would not have been avaialbe to the average customer or even field service, Now all this is starting to worry me. Is it possible that I've got away with a hell of a lot in just assuming that my packs and RL02 drives are good? Gordon From Lee.Courtney at windriver.com Mon Dec 11 16:11:05 2006 From: Lee.Courtney at windriver.com (Courtney, Lee) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 14:11:05 -0800 Subject: Dr. Hopper's 100 birthday Message-ID: <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1B76@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com> I was lucky enough to have dinner with her when she visited our student ACM chapter in the mid-1970s. Remember her smoking (several) unfiltered Camels that evening. Great speaker. Told a very funny story about being mistaken for a flight attendant (stewardess in those days) when walking thru the airport in her naval uniform. Lee Courtney Product Line Manager - Linux for Consumer Devices Wind River 500 Wind River Way Alameda, California 94501 Office: 510-749-2763 Cell: 650-704-3934 Yahoo IM: charlesleecourtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 9:09 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Dr. Hopper's 100 birthday > > > Colin Eby wrote: > >All -- > > > >Saw this blurb on BBC News and thought I'd flag it to the > rest of you. > >9 December was the 100th anniversary of Dr. Grace Hopper's > birthday. > >All hail Mother COBOL: > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6168489.stm > > I saw her speak once, where she handed out "nanoseconds" and > talked with people afterward. It was very memorable. She > was quite inspirational. > > I'll never forget her talking about just doing things rather > than asking for permission, and her (now) famous quote on > that. She had great stories about the military and computing. > > She also (if I remember correctly) had some interesting > anecdotes about drum memory and code timing - I've seen other > people comment on that here. > > -brad > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 11 17:27:48 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:27:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Targa/TIGA/??? was Re: TMS340x0 In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E303621F@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <948034.79134.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kelly Leavitt wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > On Behalf Of Chris M > > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 3:33 PM > > > > I remember there being a product by AT & T which > was > > capable of manipulationg "microdots" (micropels?, > > thereby creating screen resolutions much greater > then > > was common in those days. It was a boardset and > may > > have been built around the 34010 (not sure about > that > > though - I think the product was called Targa, and > I > > could have confused Targa and TIGA). > > I remeber the AT&T TARGA. Output was to a RGB > monitor. Input via tablet with a puck and a wand. > They had it running on a Wyse PC/286. I wrote a > converter to the Amiga IFF and PC GIF, but I can't > find the source any more. to convert .tga to those formats? > I worked at the video lab for the County College of > Morris (in New Jersey) back in 90-92. They also had > some SGI stuff and some film printers for the PC. > All networked via ethernet. Pretty advanced for a > community college. But am I correct in asserting that *somehow* this device could control the individual micro-dots (not the Berkeley kind LOL LOL) that make up a pixel? Prior to VGA, and although the ability wasn't altogether absent from the computer world then, photorealistic imagery was possible, IIRC, on a stock digital monitor??? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Dec 11 17:32:54 2006 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:32:54 -0600 Subject: Interesting decompiler Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20061211173157.083ee278@mail> This tool turns Borland Turbo C 2.0x .EXE back into C code: http://www.debugmode.com/dcompile/disc.htm - John From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 11 17:50:58 2006 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:50:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20061211173157.083ee278@mail> Message-ID: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> the link to TC 2.01 should read: http://bdn.borland.com/article/images/20841/tc201.zip or view the article first, which contains the readme and comments: http://bdn.borland.com/article/20841 very groovy though --- John Foust wrote: > > This tool turns Borland Turbo C 2.0x .EXE back into > C code: > > http://www.debugmode.com/dcompile/disc.htm > > - John > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Dec 11 18:33:32 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:33:32 -0600 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <457DF8DC.4050302@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > the link to TC 2.01 should read: > > http://bdn.borland.com/article/images/20841/tc201.zip annoyingly, I think that version is too early to support inline assembler, which makes it less useful for any actual DOS development work :( hopefully at some point they'll release later versions. I can't imagine they're making much money from them... From kelly at catcorner.org Mon Dec 11 18:47:18 2006 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:47:18 -0500 Subject: Targa/TIGA/??? was Re: TMS340x0 Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E3036220@MEOW.catcorner.org> >Chris M > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 6:28 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Targa/TIGA/??? was Re: TMS340x0 > > > > > I remeber the AT&T TARGA. Output was to a RGB > > monitor. Input via tablet with a puck and a wand. > > They had it running on a Wyse PC/286. I wrote a > > converter to the Amiga IFF and PC GIF, but I can't > > find the source any more. > > to convert .tga to those formats? > Yes. They were pretty much raw RGB data if I recall. > > I worked at the video lab for the County College of > > Morris (in New Jersey) back in 90-92. They also had > > some SGI stuff and some film printers for the PC. > > All networked via ethernet. Pretty advanced for a > > community college. > > But am I correct in asserting that *somehow* this > device could control the individual micro-dots (not > the Berkeley kind LOL LOL) that make up a pixel? Prior > to VGA, and although the ability wasn't altogether > absent from the computer world then, photorealistic > imagery was possible, IIRC, on a stock digital > monitor??? They talked to an analog video monitor in TV or Laser Disc resolutions. The ones we had had two video cards. I think one was a Herc mono compatible for the DOS stuff. I think the one connected to the TGA was analog inputs with seperate sync. Until you activated the TARGA card, the screen was blank. I think in later versions we could load a graphic onto the video card for static display until you loaded the TARGA software. I don't recall the term micro-dots, but everything was anti-aliased. I was the technoid that connected the devices, made them all talk, and cobbled together software for moving the images. I also learned a lot about video production. I think their character cenerators were originally Sony MBC-55s. They then moved to Chimera or something similar. I just remember replacing the ROMs and software on these units all the time for upgrades. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Dec 11 19:02:55 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:02:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <457DF8DC.4050302@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <457DF8DC.4050302@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20061211165644.B80893@shell.lmi.net> > > the link to TC 2.01 should read: > > http://bdn.borland.com/article/images/20841/tc201.zip On Mon, 11 Dec 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: > annoyingly, I think that version is too early to support inline assembler, > which makes it less useful for any actual DOS development work :( > hopefully at some point they'll release later versions. I can't imagine > they're making much money from them... TurboC 2.0x DOES explicitly support inline assembler. http://bdn.borland.com/article/images/20841/tc20ad.jpg (notice the list of features of TC2.0 in the box at lower left) If you are not using symbolic labels, remember that C passes arguments to a function on the stack (pushed from right to left), and returns the function return in AX. Restore the values of all segment registers, and BP. From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Dec 11 19:34:26 2006 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 17:34:26 -0800 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <20061211165644.B80893@shell.lmi.net> (Fred Cisin's message of "Mon\, 11 Dec 2006 17\:02\:55 -0800 \(PST\)") References: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <457DF8DC.4050302@yahoo.co.uk> <20061211165644.B80893@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200612120134.kBC1YQ1G090486@lots.reanimators.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 11 Dec 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: >> annoyingly, I think that version is too early to support inline assembler, >> which makes it less useful for any actual DOS development work :( > > TurboC 2.0x DOES explicitly support inline assembler. > > http://bdn.borland.com/article/images/20841/tc20ad.jpg > (notice the list of features of TC2.0 in the box at lower left) You can write inline assembler in your C source, but the Turbo 2.0x compiler can't do the assembly by itself -- it uses Turbo Assembler for that. -Frank McConnell From ygehrich at yahoo.com Mon Dec 11 19:58:54 2006 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:58:54 -0500 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20061211173157.083ee278@mail> <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061211205703.05f7bf80@yahoo.com> Many, many years ago when I first started at IBM (1964) there was a cute cartoon in Datamation Magazine. It showed a big machine labeled decompiler. A worker was feeding cans of apple sauce into one end of the mation and another worker at the opposite end removing apples and putting them in a box From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 22:49:56 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 21:49:56 -0700 Subject: FYI: RZ29C (4.8 GB SCSI DEC drives) on ebay for $5 ea. Message-ID: I've bought from this guy before and been happy with the results. Item #2788787188 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Dec 11 22:02:18 2006 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 23:02:18 -0500 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <200612120134.kBC1YQ1G090486@lots.reanimators.org> References: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <457DF8DC.4050302@yahoo.co.uk> <20061211165644.B80893@shell.lmi.net> <200612120134.kBC1YQ1G090486@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <457E29CA.1030403@compsys.to> >Frank McConnell wrote: >Fred Cisin wrote: > > >>On Mon, 11 Dec 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> >>>annoyingly, I think that version is too early to support inline assembler, >>>which makes it less useful for any actual DOS development work :( >>> >>> >>TurboC 2.0x DOES explicitly support inline assembler. >> >>http://bdn.borland.com/article/images/20841/tc20ad.jpg >>(notice the list of features of TC2.0 in the box at lower left) >> >> > >You can write inline assembler in your C source, but the Turbo 2.0x >compiler can't do the assembly by itself -- it uses Turbo Assembler >for that. > > Jerome Fine replies: I am having difficulty getting the following code assembled using the watcom assembler. I understand that TASM will do much better, but I have not been able to find a copy. Do you know if TASM might be able to assemble the following code and where I might obtain a copy? ======================================================================= .radix 8 ;????? .386 ;(allow constants over 16 bits) csr1= 17777100q ;base CSR address in PDP-11 space;????? csr2= 4194304d-64d ;17777100q ;base CSR address in PDP-11 space .186 ;*not* USE32 segments code segment use16 'code' assume cs:code .386 start: retf shtdwn: retf wep: public wep mov ax,seg dgroup retf data: mov ebx,ds:addr ;get pointer into memory ;????? add dword ptr ds:addr,2 ;increment address ;????? ret alowi: mov ax,word ptr ds:addr ;fetch value ;????? ret alowo: mov word ptr ds:addr,ax ;save value ;????? ret ahighi: mov ax,word ptr ds:addr+2 ;fetch value ;????? ret ahigho: mov word ptr ds:addr+2,ax ;save value ;????? ret .186 code ends dgroup group data ;????? data segment use16 'data' .386 db 16d dup(0) ;task header (LocalAlloc ptrs etc.) addr dd 0 ;extended address (forced even) ;????? .186 data ends end start ============================================================================ Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 23:15:39 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:15:39 -0700 Subject: Shelving ideas for 3-high terminals Message-ID: OK, I'm in a situation that will sound all too familiar. My collecting habits have started to fill my basement. I'm considering building some sturdy shelving that will let me stack terminals 3 high. Well, really "two high" at standard bench heigh, leaving room underneath for things like workstations and other floor units that are approximately desk height or less. One of you has probably done something similar, or maybe you know of a pre-fab shelving unit that is up to the task, giving me the option of investing labor or cash. Suggestions? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Dec 11 23:24:32 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:24:32 -0700 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? Message-ID: We have the chips produced from earlier eras, but what attempts have been made to preserve the design tools from those earlier eras? Schematic Capture PCB Layout Netlist Tools IC transistor-level design IC gate-level design etc. I know several of you out there have microprocessor development environments from Intel and TI, IIRC. Ditto for things like PROM programmers. What about the design software? I imagine the first generation of EDA software was created in-house by pioneers of VLSI design. But what about when the tools started to become commodities? What about early releases of software from a company like Mentor Graphics? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 12 00:06:36 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:06:36 -0800 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <457E29CA.1030403@compsys.to> References: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com>, <200612120134.kBC1YQ1G090486@lots.reanimators.org>, <457E29CA.1030403@compsys.to> Message-ID: <457DD66C.5579.F3CA8CB@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Dec 2006 at 23:02, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I am having difficulty getting the following code assembled > using the watcom assembler. I understand that TASM will do > much better, but I have not been able to find a copy. Do > you know if TASM might be able to assemble the following > code and where I might obtain a copy? At the expense of looking stupid... Why not use the Microsoft assembler? It's free and reasonably bugless. Cheers, Chuck From hachti at hachti.de Tue Dec 12 00:19:46 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:19:46 +0100 Subject: KDF11-BA boot with RK06 emulation Message-ID: <457E4A02.1090605@hachti.de> Hi folks, I have found the Motorola 68764 EPROM to make new boot ROMs for my PDP11/23+. Everybody seems to discuss the use of KDF11-B3, KDF11-BG etc. and MSCP devices. But what avout RK06/07? In my system I have an Emulex SMD controller which emulates RK06 (with other disks also RK07) drives, an RX02 and a SCSI controller doing the DU MSCP thing. Everything works fine. Only booting is problematic. I have to choose what I want to do by configuring my cards: * For DU, I have to enable auto boot on controller and CPU, nasty thing. Makes booting SCSI possible - but only that. * For RK (DM), I have to use the controller's ROM and to disable the LTC on the CPU. Don't know if there's a line clock on the controller or how to enable it. In that configuration I can boot DM and DY - but no DU * With original PROM I can only boot DY on my system. I want an original PROM image which does all the three. Does that exist? If yes, please let me know. It would be very nice to have a machine with the possibility to choose between all available boot devices on start up. With the nice BOOT> prompt etc. Thank you very much, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From evan at snarc.net Tue Dec 12 00:31:03 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 01:31:03 -0500 Subject: Anyone want 15 minutes of fame? Message-ID: <001001c71db7$195a2fb0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Hi all. I'm writing an article for MIT's Technology Review magazine about vintage computer replica kits. I need someone to interview RIGHT AWAY. It's currently 1:30AM here on the east coast but that is okay. So, if you're awake and have any opinions about the various replica kits, or especially if you've built one or plan to get one soon, then email me OFF-LIST but RIGHT NOW. (Sorry for the late notice!!) I'm at evan at snarc.net. Be sure to leave your phone number because I don't have time for playing tag tonight. Thanks! At least 15 minutes of fame gauranteed. :) - Evan From elf at ucsd.edu Tue Dec 12 00:38:12 2006 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric Flanzbaum) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:38:12 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life In-Reply-To: <200612111609.kBBG8tJt050914@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612111609.kBBG8tJt050914@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061211222204.03370fd8@ucsd.edu> > Well, it took a few years, but I finally brought my PDP-11/70 > panel back to life: > http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/PDP11/PDP-11.html > I'm afraid I don't have the space or power (or noise tolerance!) > to have the real thing around. Has anybody else brought panels > back to life? I'm aware of the Spare Time Gizmos / Ersatz-11 > work, and of course the incredible "Gallery of Old Iron". Any > others? Very nice! I have an 11/70 panel sitting around -- and that looks like an intriguing project to try. I own XDS (SDS) Sigma 9 Panel and brought it back to life. It was quite an undertaking, as the panel consists of about 100 lamps -- and hand wiring all of them took quite a bit of labor. It now blinks -- in some sort of random "computing" fashion -- but is essentially a useless piece of eye-candy when it comes to being a useful computer (after all, I don't have anything else except the programming console). But I must admit, it is a pretty sight watching all those blinkenlights flicker on and off :-) I wired it up basically in tribute to my father for a present -- who was employee #9 (or maybe #10) at SDS way back in the early 1960s. I also own an SDS 940 programming console -- but I've chosen to leave that untouched (a dead soul, if you will). -Eric P.S. -- I'd post a video of it in action, but I don't own a video camera (I'll have to borrow one). I did take a bunch of snapshots in succession and piece them together -- kind of a kludge -- but you get an idea of what it looks like after watching it. Not nearly as nice if it were a smooth video though. If anyone is interested, and I can get around to it, I'll post a picture or two, and the "piecemeal" video on a website in the (maybe near) future. From hachti at hachti.de Tue Dec 12 00:38:25 2006 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:38:25 +0100 Subject: Emulex SC02/C utilities amd diagnostics Message-ID: <457E4E61.3050801@hachti.de> Hi again, the Emulex SC02/C controller seems to be able to boot my DU device (as docs tell, my MSCP SCSI thing is EMulex too). That would be cool. Will try it out in the evening. What about the Emulex original diagnostics and tools (pack formatter etc) for the controller? Does anyone have that? Would be very good to have the tools. Don't know where to get them. Regards, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 12 00:41:51 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:41:51 -0800 Subject: Anyone want 15 minutes of fame? In-Reply-To: <001001c71db7$195a2fb0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> References: <001001c71db7$195a2fb0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <457DDEAF.31566.F5CF05B@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Dec 2006 at 1:31, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Thanks! At least 15 minutes of fame gauranteed. :) Evan, we live in modern times. Mel Gibson barely gets 15 minutes of fame nowadays--there's too much competition. You'd best lower your guarantee to 15 seconds.... ;) Cheers, Chuck From rvc1954 at comcast.net Mon Dec 11 19:23:46 2006 From: rvc1954 at comcast.net (Rick Caprarella) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:23:46 -0500 Subject: Meshna Message-ID: Hello there! I remember Meshna's quite well. Right across from Flax Pond, near the old Coke Plant. I grew up in Lynn near Union Hospital, and went to the old Lynn Trade school in 1969 - 1972 for electronics. I actually walked the 3 miles from my house to Meshna's at least once per week in those years. Tons of big transformers, vacuum tubes, power supplies, O-scopes, and a lot of World War 2 Army stuff thrown in for good measure. I remember the big plastic bags of capacitors, resistors or even radio crystals for 1 dollar. Jeesh, now that I think of it, those are damn good memories!! When I walked up those wooden stairs onto the back long porch and went inside, I remember the place had a particular odor of old wood which I really liked for some reason. Just one of those things I guess! Sorry to hear that time has won the race again, but that will never stop, and some things I will never forget! Rick Caprarella From evan at snarc.net Tue Dec 12 01:01:14 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 02:01:14 -0500 Subject: Anyone want 15 minutes of fame? In-Reply-To: <457DDEAF.31566.F5CF05B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <001701c71dbb$5072a910$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> But don't you know that all members of the press are manipulative liars?* Oops, that is OT here. :) Anyway I just got a call from Sellam and his sound bite trumps all of you! - Evan * Actually, most of us are nice, hard-working, good people. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 1:42 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone want 15 minutes of fame? On 12 Dec 2006 at 1:31, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Thanks! At least 15 minutes of fame gauranteed. :) Evan, we live in modern times. Mel Gibson barely gets 15 minutes of fame nowadays--there's too much competition. You'd best lower your guarantee to 15 seconds.... ;) Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Dec 12 01:46:21 2006 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 02:46:21 -0500 Subject: Mouse systems M4 Optical Mouse References: <010401c6bdd8$0a134b20$0b01a8c0@game> <44DDD26A.7010702@arachelian.com> <200608122039.QAA18564@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <057a01c71dc1$9e3deaa0$0b01a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 4:04 PM Subject: Re: Mouse systems M4 Optical Mouse > In a standard Sun-type optical mouse, one LED is indeed infrared. One problem > they develop with age is that the LEDs dim at different rates and the IR LED > dims to the point of ineffectiveness before the red one. > > http://www.bjnet.edu.cn/sun-admin/FAQ/F-comp-sys-sun/Q54-0.html > (unfortunately, the repair URL it gives doesn't work for me) > > > If you can find suitable inks, printing vertical and horizontal lines > > on a shiny surface should do fine - but beware that such mouse pads > > exist in at least two and I think three different resolutions; while a > > mouse designed for a fine-resolution pad works fine with a coarser pad, > > the converse is not true. If you want I can approximate the line > > spacing of the mouse pads I have, with a ruler or tape measure and > > some careful counting. > > Yes... in the case of Sun mice, there are two grid resolutions of > mouse pads, and, IIRC, > the coarser one goes with Sun3 and early Sun4-type mice (the beige blocky ones). > Later mice (bluish color scheme) used the higher-resolution pads. > > While it may not sound that Sun information is relevant, Mouse Systems made the > vast bulk of optical mice in the ball-mouse era. What changed from > mouse to mouse > was the host interface. Suns need 4800baud serial, Amigas take raw > quadrature (one > should be able to easily adapt an MS Bus Mouse to work with the Amiga). > > -ethan I finally found what looks to be the mousepad I needed Ebay #2788787188 its the mouse with the pad (I just need the pad). These seem to be cheap if anybody else needed one. Sorry for digging up an old thread. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 12 03:49:34 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 03:49:34 -0600 Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <200612120134.kBC1YQ1G090486@lots.reanimators.org> References: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <457DF8DC.4050302@yahoo.co.uk> <20061211165644.B80893@shell.lmi.net> <200612120134.kBC1YQ1G090486@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <457E7B2E.5040607@yahoo.co.uk> Frank McConnell wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Mon, 11 Dec 2006, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> annoyingly, I think that version is too early to support inline assembler, >>> which makes it less useful for any actual DOS development work :( >> TurboC 2.0x DOES explicitly support inline assembler. >> >> http://bdn.borland.com/article/images/20841/tc20ad.jpg >> (notice the list of features of TC2.0 in the box at lower left) > > You can write inline assembler in your C source, but the Turbo 2.0x > compiler can't do the assembly by itself -- it uses Turbo Assembler > for that. Aha, yes - I do remember that now. I never did get it to work, though, although I don't remember the exact nature of the errors I used to get. I think I might still have a TC2.0 environment sitting around on one of the DOS hard disks - I'll have a look if I get the chance. It was quite possibly a case of RTFM and some magic environment variable or other setting was needed somewhere - which is OK if you actually have TFM to read :-) I seem to recall that the integrated editor had real trouble with large files too - but possibly that was just on machines without any EMS / XMS driver voodoo going on. (I'd be surprised if the editor couldn't handle larger files - but then, wasn't notepad in the much later Win95 days still limited to 64KB max?) I really must see if I can drag a later TC environment off tape, assuming they're still readable... cheers Jules -- there's a carp in the tub there's a carp in the tub so nobody's taken a bath From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Dec 12 05:51:36 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:51:36 +0000 Subject: Emulex SC02/C utilities amd diagnostics In-Reply-To: <457E4E61.3050801@hachti.de> References: <457E4E61.3050801@hachti.de> Message-ID: <457E97C8.8050407@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/12/2006 06:38, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > Hi again, > > the Emulex SC02/C controller seems to be able to boot my DU device (as > docs tell, my MSCP SCSI thing is EMulex too). That would be cool. > Will try it out in the evening. > > What about the Emulex original diagnostics and tools (pack formatter > etc) for the controller? > Does anyone have that? Would be very good to have the tools. > Don't know where to get them. You can use the DEC diagnostics with some patches for the Emulex controllers; there's an Emulex manual listing the patches. It's over a decade since I did this, but I thought you could format the drive just using the on-board firmware? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Dec 12 05:51:37 2006 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:51:37 +0000 Subject: KDF11-BA boot with RK06 emulation In-Reply-To: <457E4A02.1090605@hachti.de> References: <457E4A02.1090605@hachti.de> Message-ID: <457E97C9.5060005@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/12/2006 06:19, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > > Everybody seems to discuss the use of KDF11-B3, KDF11-BG etc. and MSCP > devices. > > But what avout RK06/07? > In my system I have an Emulex SMD controller which emulates RK06 (with > other disks also RK07) drives, an RX02 and a SCSI controller doing the > DU MSCP thing. Everything works fine. Something like an SC/02 or SC/03? I have one of each of those. However, AFAIK DEC never made a QBus boot PROM that supported RK06/7, because there was never a DEC RK06/7 controller for QBus -- only for Unibus (RK611). The only solution would to change the PROMs on the Emulex controller so that instead of emulating RK06/7 it emulates something else that a DEC bootstrap does exist for. There are several versions of both SC/02 and SC/03, including MSCP and RL emulations, but whether you can just change the PROMs I don't know. It's probably easier to get a different board. > * For DU, I have to enable auto boot on controller and CPU, nasty thing. > Makes booting SCSI possible - but only that. > > * For RK (DM), I have to use the controller's ROM and to disable the LTC > on the CPU. Don't know if there's a line clock on the controller or how > to enable it. In that configuration I can boot DM and DY - but no DU I can't remember if the Emulex controllers have an LTC -- and my manuals are at home while I'm at work ATM -- but if they tell you to disable the one on the KDF11-B I'd assume it's so they don't fight. There's a good collection of Emulex manuals on bitsavers. > * With original PROM I can only boot DY on my system. > > I want an original PROM image which does all the three. Does that exist? DU and DY, yes, but not DM. And you may find that the SCSI controller's DU boot is specific to that card; it probably won't boot any other card because it may not be a real bootstrap: some third party cards just detect the attempt to start the bootstrap at the standard address and do the rest themselves. I don't know whether it would boot properly using the normal DEC DU boot code, but you could try it. You might be able to change one of the bootstraps to respond to an alternate address, which would allow you to enable two bootstraps, and use ODT to jump to the "alternate" one. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Dec 12 06:40:40 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 06:40:40 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Apple ASCII keyboard wanted Message-ID: <457EA348.6050901@yahoo.co.uk> Following was spotted on the mn.general group; I figured that someone here might have an answer! cheers J. ==fwd== Subject: Looking for vintage keyboard From: Paul Czywczynski Newsgroups: mn.general Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 02:16:21 +0000 (UTC) I am looking for a couple of vintage Apple I or II ASCII keyboards. Does anyone know of any sources, local or Internet based? thanks... -Paul From cc at corti-net.de Tue Dec 12 08:20:24 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:20:24 +0100 (CET) Subject: Emulex SC02/C utilities amd diagnostics In-Reply-To: <457E97C8.8050407@dunnington.plus.com> References: <457E4E61.3050801@hachti.de> <457E97C8.8050407@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Dec 2006, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 12/12/2006 06:38, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> What about the Emulex original diagnostics and tools (pack formatter etc) >> for the controller? >> Does anyone have that? Would be very good to have the tools. >> Don't know where to get them. > > You can use the DEC diagnostics with some patches for the Emulex controllers; > there's an Emulex manual listing the patches. It's over a decade since I did > this, but I thought you could format the drive just using the on-board > firmware? I've seen these patches in Philipp's manual and I think they are a bad joke. Anyway they won't test Emulex specific properties of the controllers, nor do the DEC programs know how to create RK06 partitions on an Emulex controller; a RK06 doesn't have partitions. According to http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2004-August/033774.html Ed Kelleher has the original Emulex diagnostics on RX50. Maybe he can make copies with ImageDisk or TeleDisk? Christian From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 12 10:10:57 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:10:57 -0500 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2006, at 12:24 AM, Richard wrote: > We have the chips produced from earlier eras, but what attempts have > been made to preserve the design tools from those earlier eras? > > Schematic Capture > PCB Layout > Netlist Tools > IC transistor-level design > IC gate-level design > etc. > > I know several of you out there have microprocessor development > environments from Intel and TI, IIRC. Ditto for things like PROM > programmers. > > What about the design software? I imagine the first generation of EDA > software was created in-house by pioneers of VLSI design. But what > about when the tools started to become commodities? What about early > releases of software from a company like Mentor Graphics? I've seen two systems (not pure software, but integrated systems) that really blew me away years ago. My memories of both are very fuzzy. One was an ECAD workstation called Daisy; it was a schematic capture system and may have done other things as well. It was gorgeous but I didn't see much of its capabilities. I saw this around 1985 or thereabouts. The other was a PCB layout system made by Calay (or possibly the model was called Calay, not sure)...It was built into a desk; it had a small Qbus PDP-11 (11/23 I believe) built into it, which seemed to be running RT-11 on a text terminal, while the layout was being developed on a large bitmapped color display. The PCB routing capability was built around some sort of specialized processor which the PDP-11 passed data to and from. I gather it was some sort of hardware-assisted autorouting system. I worked in the facility in which this machine lived...I wire-wrapped the prototypes of the PCBs that were designed on that machine, so I didn't get to work with it directly. This was around mid-1986. It is a pipe dream, but I have an eBay saved search for "calay" just in case. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 12 10:27:45 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 08:27:45 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <457E6801.327.117555D9@cclist.sydex.com> > On Dec 12, 2006, at 12:24 AM, Richard wrote: > We have the chips produced from earlier eras, but what attempts have > been made to preserve the design tools from those earlier eras? I've still got a copy of the first Orcad SDT--ran on a PC-XT (I think it coiuld run on floppies) using CGA or Hercules. I've also got a copy somewhere of an early PCB layout program that ran on an Atari ST. Did anyone salvage any of the very expensive hardware simulators of the mid 80's? I'm having trouble thinking of the brand names... Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 12 10:37:03 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 08:37:03 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? Message-ID: <457EDAAF.1040205@bitsavers.org> > I've seen two systems (not pure software, but integrated systems) > that really blew me away years ago. My memories of both are very > fuzzy. One was an ECAD workstation called Daisy; it was a schematic > capture system and may have done other things as well. It was > gorgeous but I didn't see much of its capabilities. I saw this > around 1985 or thereabouts. Daisy was one of the first ECAD workstations. Started out as 8086 Multibus up through 386. I never saw the earliest version of the OS. The later ones were unix-like. Last versions were Intel 386 PC based. Apple used them before switching to Valid or Mentor, depending on the project. I saw parts of a Calay at a surplus place in the mid 90's. There was also Racal/Redac PCB layout systems. I think I still have the packs from one of these. It ran RSX11 on an SMS disc controller. Most of the small stand-alone systems disappeared once IBM PC ECAD systems developed. There were one or two companies selling CAD tools into the Macintosh market, but they were pretty awful. There was one system that was popular for schematic capture on Macs that was used internally at Apple up through the late 90s. DEC used a schematic capture system from Stanford through the 70's and early 80's (SUDS, Stanford University Drawing System). The MIT CADR was designed using this as well. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Dec 12 10:48:04 2006 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 16:48:04 +0000 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: <457E6801.327.117555D9@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <457E6801.327.117555D9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <457EDD44.1080801@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've still got a copy of the first Orcad SDT--ran on a PC-XT (I think > it coiuld run on floppies) using CGA or Hercules. From what I can gather, you needed two floppy drives - one for the OrCAD program disc, and another for your 'work' disc. I've been looking for a copy of SDT/386 (and the manuals) for a while - my eBay stored search hasn't fired in months :( -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 12 10:51:09 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 08:51:09 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? Message-ID: <457EDDFD.3040909@bitsavers.org> > Did anyone salvage any of the very expensive hardware simulators of > the mid 80's? Mentor and Valid both had systems which could integrate actual parts into a software simulation (Valid's was called RealChip). The largest of these sorts of things were seas of Xilix FPGAs that attemtpted to simulate entire designs. The software wasn't very good, and while they simulated the design a few orders of magnitude faster than software simulators, they still were not very fast. One of these showed up at BDI this past year, with absolutely no interest from bidders. I worked on MacOS bootstrapping of both the G3 at Somerset and the Exponential BiCMOS processors on those. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 12 11:05:03 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:05:03 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: <457EDD44.1080801@philpem.me.uk> References: , <457E6801.327.117555D9@cclist.sydex.com>, <457EDD44.1080801@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <457E70BF.2822.11977C57@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Dec 2006 at 16:48, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > I've still got a copy of the first Orcad SDT--ran on a PC-XT (I think > > it coiuld run on floppies) using CGA or Hercules. > > From what I can gather, you needed two floppy drives - one for the OrCAD > program disc, and another for your 'work' disc. Yes--and the printer options were rather limited. I remember having to print to disk and then use my own program to translate Epson graphics to the printer I had at the time. The library wasn't the greatest, but it was pretty simple to add parts to it. All in all, for the limited hardware it had, it wasn't a bad system. I used it quite a bit, even if it meant taping together sheets of tractor-feed printer paper. It was still easier than drawing by hand- -and you got some very rudimentary design checking and a BOM. One of the first programs for which I used a mouse. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 12 11:13:46 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:13:46 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: <457EDDFD.3040909@bitsavers.org> References: <457EDDFD.3040909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <457E72CA.25943.119F7675@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Dec 2006 at 8:51, Al Kossow wrote: > Mentor and Valid both had systems which could integrate actual parts > into a software simulation (Valid's was called RealChip). ZyCAD was the one I was trying to remember. A friend went to work there swearing that it was "the way of the future". One of those technological dead-ends, I guess. Flash in the pan. Cheers, Chuck From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Dec 12 11:35:46 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:35:46 +0100 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: <200612100517.AAA24722@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200612100517.AAA24722@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1165944946.6046.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2006-12-10 at 00:15 -0500, der Mouse wrote: > > I have a list of tapes of which I have little knowledge. > > Currently I cannot (easily) read these tapes. > > Is there anything of interest. I think they are all for RICS. > > Here are texts from labels: > > I'd love to get copies of the bits on these tapes. I'm not sure how > best to make that happen, especially as the footer on your mail implies > you're in Finland (and I'm in North America). I think I have a working > TK50 drive, but getting the tapes to me would be mildly expensive (and > somewhat risky given the chance of their getting lost or damaged in > transit). I'm in Norway, which is quite a bit closer to Finland. I could probably read these tapes in, if nobody closer shows up. Cannot afford the shipping right now, though, so somebody more interested in the content would have to cover that bit. -Tore :) From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Dec 12 11:43:46 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:43:46 +0100 Subject: ASR 33 repair tips sought. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165945426.6046.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2006-12-10 at 21:07 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > But what failure mode would cause extra characters from the keyboard ? > > When you press a key, you relase a lever at the right side of the > keyboard. This rotates (front end rises), turning the well-known H-plate Why is this so well-known? Was it a frequently failing part? I've noticed this in the past as well, people who had no idea what the codebar reset bail was instantly recognized the H-plate. -Tore :) From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Dec 12 11:42:28 2006 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:42:28 -0500 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200612121744.kBCHibFl016553@keith.ezwind.net> I think I still may have a copy of the Great Softwestern pcb layout addon for AutoCAD. The first board I ever did on a computer was on AutoCAD Ver 1.x I plotted it in ink at 2x to mylar and the pcb house worked from them. Just my .02 Bob On Mon, 11 Dec 2006 22:24:32 -0700, Richard wrote: >We have the chips produced from earlier eras, but what attempts have >been made to preserve the design tools from those earlier eras? >Schematic Capture >PCB Layout >Netlist Tools >IC transistor-level design >IC gate-level design >etc. >I know several of you out there have microprocessor development >environments from Intel and TI, IIRC. Ditto for things like PROM >programmers. >What about the design software? I imagine the first generation of EDA >software was created in-house by pioneers of VLSI design. But what >about when the tools started to become commodities? What about early >releases of software from a company like Mentor Graphics? >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 12 11:52:16 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:52:16 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: <457E72CA.25943.119F7675@cclist.sydex.com> References: <457EDDFD.3040909@bitsavers.org> <457E72CA.25943.119F7675@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 10:24 PM -0700 12/11/06, Richard wrote: >What about the design software? I imagine the first generation of EDA >software was created in-house by pioneers of VLSI design. But what >about when the tools started to become commodities? What about early >releases of software from a company like Mentor Graphics? Have you seen the prices of just a single seat of that kind of software? Plus they require license servers for the software to work. It doesn't matter if you have the software without the licenses the stuff won't run, and both tend to be highly guarded. Also a lot of in-house software is still used. This isn't the kind of thing that finds its way out of the companies that use/write it. At 9:13 AM -0800 12/12/06, Chuck Guzis wrote: >ZyCAD was the one I was trying to remember. A friend went to work >there swearing that it was "the way of the future". One of those >technological dead-ends, I guess. Flash in the pan. That's the one I was thinking of. I helped support a bunch of the boxes nearly 10 years ago. Rather fragile frightening boxes as I recall. After Zycad went under we kept them alive for a short time via cannibalization until we could get everything moved off of them. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Dec 12 11:53:10 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:53:10 +0100 Subject: BASF 6114 disk drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165945991.6046.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2006-12-10 at 20:26 +0100, Christian Corti wrote: > Hello, > > I have one of those "washing machine" disk drive which uses media with 11 > platters in nearly mint condition (heads are locked, test protocol from > the manufacturer is included). I think that this is a rebaged CDC or > Memorex drive. I'd like to use this drive and therefore need any kind of > manual for the BASF 6114. My idea is to check out the drive and disk packs > and then let some students build an interface that connects this drive to > a SCSI bus ;-)) Do you have a picture of it? http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/nd560-unproc.jpeg featured what ND called the ND-574, a CDC 9766 SMD (the interface name seems to me to have been taken from this drive). My reference cites 19 data surfaces - presumably 11 platters, one of which is only readable from one side, and another of which is used as servo? The formatted capacity is cited in this manual as both 225 and 288, I'm not sure why. -Tore From pechter at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 11:53:09 2006 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:53:09 -0500 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: <457EDAAF.1040205@bitsavers.org> References: <457EDAAF.1040205@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I thought the RACAL-REDAC stuff ran on RT11... with an attached VT11/VR17 to do the vector graphics. I thought it would be the coolest thing. Last time I saw that was on an 11/34 (IIRC) in '84 or so at a company outside of Trenton, NJ. I think it was on RT11 on RL01/02 or RK05 packs. Bill On 12/12/06, Al Kossow wrote: > > > I've seen two systems (not pure software, but integrated systems) > > that really blew me away years ago. My memories of both are very > > fuzzy. One was an ECAD workstation called Daisy; it was a schematic > > capture system and may have done other things as well. It was > > gorgeous but I didn't see much of its capabilities. I saw this > > around 1985 or thereabouts. > > Daisy was one of the first ECAD workstations. Started out as 8086 > Multibus up through 386. I never saw the earliest version of the OS. The > later ones were unix-like. Last versions were Intel 386 PC based. Apple > used them before switching to Valid or Mentor, depending on the project. > > I saw parts of a Calay at a surplus place in the mid 90's. There was > also Racal/Redac PCB layout systems. I think I still have the packs from > one of these. It ran RSX11 on an SMS disc controller. > > Most of the small stand-alone systems disappeared once IBM PC ECAD > systems developed. There were one or two companies selling CAD tools > into the Macintosh market, but they were pretty awful. There was one > system that was popular for schematic capture on Macs that was used > internally at Apple up through the late 90s. > > DEC used a schematic capture system from Stanford through the 70's and > early 80's (SUDS, Stanford University Drawing System). The MIT CADR was > designed using this as well. > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 12 12:02:25 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:02:25 -0800 Subject: BASF 6114 disk drive Message-ID: <457EEEB1.6090407@bitsavers.org> > Do you have a picture of it? I picture would be useful. If it's from Dortmund, I don't seem to have a picture of it. The 2311 drives I've been able to identify from the pics were made by are CDC, Century Data, and Memorex. > http://toresbe.at.ifi.uio.no/nd560-unproc.jpeg The 9766 is the drive with the pack on top. There is a CDC FSD drive directly below that. Someone at CHM is currently writing a history of the SMD interface for the mass storage SIG. The interface appears to originate with the 80mb 9762 and 40mb 9760 in 1973. Formatted capacity can vary on a number of factors, including number of sectors per track. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 12:22:26 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:22:26 -0700 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:52:16 -0800. Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > At 10:24 PM -0700 12/11/06, Richard wrote: > >What about the design software? I imagine the first generation of EDA > >software was created in-house by pioneers of VLSI design. But what > >about when the tools started to become commodities? What about early > >releases of software from a company like Mentor Graphics? > > Have you seen the prices of just a single seat of that kind of > software? Yes, but I hadn't thought about licensing, that's a good point. I wonder if these companies even keep around a piece of their history or if its lost forever? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 12 13:00:52 2006 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:00:52 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: <200612121744.kBCHibFl016553@keith.ezwind.net> References: , <200612121744.kBCHibFl016553@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <457E8BE4.4570.1201849B@cclist.sydex.com> I've also got a copy of Schema SDT for the PC-XT/MS-DOS. It was easier to use than OrCAD, IIRC. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Dec 12 13:08:56 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 14:08:56 -0500 Subject: [rescue] Need any "old" tape media? In-Reply-To: <200612071622.22234.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200612071622.22234.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200612121408.56723.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 07 December 2006 16:22, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I've got a stack of 8mm (doesn't mention a size, a mix of Verbatim > data tapes, and Sony and Fuji video tapes), 4mm DDS1 (both 60M and > 90M), and DLT3 tapes at work which we're getting set to throw away... > the DDS/8mm tapes have some data on them, and will be degaussed... the > DLT3's are unused, from several years ago. > > Asking $2/tape plus shipping. I've got 50-100 of each available. If > I don't hear anything by mid next week, they'll be thrown in the > trash. I just noticed that I've got about 2x as much media as I thought. So, I'm asking $1/DLT3 tape, or $25 for a box of 40 tapes (plus shipping). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 12 12:51:11 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:51:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 11, 6 02:35:16 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > Yes. I have something that calls itself an 'Ultra-X', I assume it's some > > fairly early X-terminal. [...] > > I don't think its so early; the earliest X terminals used custom > monitor, mouse and keyboard connections. They didn't start using I have an idea this thing is running X10, not X11... > standard VGA/PS2 style connections until the mid to late 90s. By this It's not PS/2. It's a AT-style 5 pin DIN for the keyboard and an RS232 serial mouse (I think either Logitec or Microsoft). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 12 12:53:55 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:53:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Cleaning disk packs (was: RK05 images) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 11, 6 02:38:44 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > Now, the manuals for the RLs and RK06/07 specificially warn against > > cleaning the packs by hand. [...] > > Whats the density of an RL01 compared to an RK05? Twice as much data per surface (approximately), I have an idea it's about the same number of cylinders (202 on the RK05, 256 on the RL01?) The RL02 is twice as many cylinders as the RL01, otherwise everything's the same. More importantly (for thsi) the flying height of the heads is half as high on the RL's as on the RK05 according to the manual. The figures 100 microns for the RK05 and 50 microns for the RL01 spring to mind but I might be mis-remembering them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 12 13:07:46 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 19:07:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR 33 repair tips sought. In-Reply-To: <1165945426.6046.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> from "Tore Sinding Bekkedal" at Dec 12, 6 06:43:46 pm Message-ID: > > When you press a key, you relase a lever at the right side of the > > keyboard. This rotates (front end rises), turning the well-known H-plate > > Why is this so well-known? Was it a frequently failing part? I've > noticed this in the past as well, people who had no idea what the > codebar reset bail was instantly recognized the H-plate. No, it never fails AFAIK. The reason it's well-knwon is that it's the part you have to remove in order to remvoe the typing unit (main chassis with the printer mechanism, motor and punch on it) from the base pan. And since that's something you should do if shipping an ASR33 if you don't have the hold-down screw, the H-plate is fairly well known. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 12 13:13:33 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:13:33 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? Message-ID: <457EFF5D.9080204@bitsavers.org> >> Have you seen the prices of just a single seat of that kind of >> software? > > Yes, but I hadn't thought about licensing, that's a good point. > > I wonder if these companies even keep around a piece of their history > or if its lost forever? Look at the company you work for. Does E&S have copies of everything that they have produced? The rest of the world is no different. Once a product is no longer a source of revenue, it is disposed of. If it is archived, the chances of anyone getting access to it outside the company is vanishingly small. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 13:24:39 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:24:39 -0700 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:51:11 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > > > > In article , > > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > > > Yes. I have something that calls itself an 'Ultra-X', I assume it's some > > > fairly early X-terminal. [...] > > > > I don't think its so early; the earliest X terminals used custom > > monitor, mouse and keyboard connections. They didn't start using > > I have an idea this thing is running X10, not X11... Oh, interesting...how does it boot? Server in ROM or loaded via tftp, etc.? > > standard VGA/PS2 style connections until the mid to late 90s. By this > > It's not PS/2. It's a AT-style 5 pin DIN for the keyboard and an RS232 > serial mouse (I think either Logitec or Microsoft). Yes, that sounds more of the period :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 13:25:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:25:40 -0700 Subject: Cleaning disk packs (was: RK05 images) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:53:55 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > More importantly (for thsi) the flying height of the heads is half as > high on the RL's as on the RK05 according to the manual. The figures 100 > microns for the RK05 and 50 microns for the RL01 spring to mind but I > might be mis-remembering them. That's a good point, I should check the head height from my docs. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 13:27:31 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:27:31 -0700 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:13:33 -0800. <457EFF5D.9080204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <457EFF5D.9080204 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > >> Have you seen the prices of just a single seat of that kind of > >> software? > > > > Yes, but I hadn't thought about licensing, that's a good point. > > > > I wonder if these companies even keep around a piece of their history > > or if its lost forever? > > Look at the company you work for. Worked :-). I haven't worked at E&S since um... 1994, I think. > Does E&S have copies of everything that they have produced? I didn't see things earlier than 1988 when I was there; I never saw a Line Drawing System, a Picture System or a Picture System II. I did see a PS/390. > The rest of the world is no different. Once a product is no longer a > source of revenue, it is disposed of. If it is archived, the chances of > anyone getting access to it outside the company is vanishingly small. I wonder if any hobbyist has ever tried to secure a source code escroe on the stuff they use :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brian at quarterbyte.com Tue Dec 12 13:32:48 2006 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:32:48 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? Message-ID: <457E9360.20716.3CF942D3@brian.quarterbyte.com> Are you asking only about chip design software, or are you including circuit design software? IBM had proprietary schematic editing, automated layout, automated manufacturing, etc in the early 1960's if not earlier. Simulation too if I remember correctly. The schematics were printed on line printers and were (are) called Automated Logic Diagrams (ALD). See e.g. http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/082/ibmrd0802F.pdf http://ed-thelen.org/1401Project/ALDs-fromAustralia.html There is more detail in http://bitsavers.trailing- edge.com/pdf/ibm/logic Data entry was originally text based. When the 2250 graphic display unit became available around 1967, IBM moved from text-based ALD editing to graphical. See e.g. http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=805397 It would be pretty wonderful if all of THAT code was still around. Could run it under simulation. Brian From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 12 14:31:00 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 12:31:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interesting decompiler In-Reply-To: <457E29CA.1030403@compsys.to> References: <20061211235058.86171.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <457DF8DC.4050302@yahoo.co.uk> <20061211165644.B80893@shell.lmi.net> <200612120134.kBC1YQ1G090486@lots.reanimators.org> <457E29CA.1030403@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20061212122630.M31812@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 11 Dec 2006, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I am having difficulty getting the following code assembled > using the watcom assembler. I understand that TASM will do > much better, but I have not been able to find a copy. Do > you know if TASM might be able to assemble the following > code and where I might obtain a copy? > . . . > data: mov ebx,ds:addr ;get pointer into memory ;????? > . . . > data segment use16 'data' > . . . > data ends > . . . AMONG OTHER THINGS, TASM would probably not be happy about naming both a code offset AND a segment "data" Strip it down. Remove everything that does assemble, until you isolate specific items that won't assemble. You can put them back in afterwards, but right now, they get in the way of finding out what is going wrong. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 12 14:41:09 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 20:41:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 12, 6 12:24:39 pm Message-ID: > > > > Yes. I have something that calls itself an 'Ultra-X', I assume it's some > > > > fairly early X-terminal. [...] > > > > > > I don't think its so early; the earliest X terminals used custom > > > monitor, mouse and keyboard connections. They didn't start using > > > > I have an idea this thing is running X10, not X11... > > Oh, interesting...how does it boot? Server in ROM or loaded via tftp, > etc.? There's a daughterboard to the 'video board' (the one with the 34010 on it) which contains 10 EPROMs (I forgrt the size of each). Those contain the Xserver and fonts. There are, IIRC, a total of 4 PCBs in the unit. There's a little SMPSU, the video board (34010 + RAM + RAMDAC + a little support logic), the ROM daugherboard and an I/O board (80188 + standard serial, ethernet, keyboard interface (programmed 8042), etc chips. I should have scheamtics somewhere so I can find more details if you're interested. > > > > standard VGA/PS2 style connections until the mid to late 90s. By this > > > > It's not PS/2. It's a AT-style 5 pin DIN for the keyboard and an RS232 > > serial mouse (I think either Logitec or Microsoft). > > Yes, that sounds more of the period :-). A minor clarification, IIRC, the unit can be set to use either a Microsoft or Logitec serial mouse in one of the setup menus. -tony From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Dec 12 14:49:13 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:49:13 -0500 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 12 Dec 2006 08:37:03 PST." <457EDAAF.1040205@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200612122049.kBCKnETe023362@mwave.heeltoe.com> Al Kossow wrote: > >DEC used a schematic capture system from Stanford through the 70's and >early 80's (SUDS, Stanford University Drawing System). The MIT CADR was >designed using this as well. Someone told me they hacked SUDS to work with X11 for the XKL folks. I don't have a copy, but wish I did (it would come in handy). I do have some hacked up tools for reading SUDS files and descriptions of the data file format. -brad From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Dec 12 15:06:01 2006 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 22:06:01 +0100 Subject: ASR 33 repair tips sought. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457F19B9.3080702@bluewin.ch> Tony Duell wrote: >>> When you press a key, you relase a lever at the right side of the >>> keyboard. This rotates (front end rises), turning the well-known H-plate >> Why is this so well-known? Was it a frequently failing part? I've >> noticed this in the past as well, people who had no idea what the >> codebar reset bail was instantly recognized the H-plate. > > No, it never fails AFAIK. > > The reason it's well-knwon is that it's the part you have to remove in > order to remvoe the typing unit (main chassis with the printer mechanism, > motor and punch on it) from the base pan. And since that's something you > should do if shipping an ASR33 if you don't have the hold-down screw, the > H-plate is fairly well known. > I have removed exactly that a couple of times now.. My ASR33 problem turned out to be a slightly bend universal lever in the keyboard. But I will also need to readjust the clutch stop. Rather difficult to reach with the screwdriver... Jos From steve at radiorobots.com Tue Dec 12 08:27:58 2006 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 09:27:58 -0500 Subject: Meshna In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <457EBC6E.4040203@radiorobots.com> Rick Caprarella wrote: >Hello there! > > I remember Meshna's quite well. Right across from Flax Pond, near the >old Coke Plant. I grew up in Lynn near Union Hospital, and went to the old >Lynn Trade school in 1969 - 1972 for electronics. I actually walked the 3 >miles from my house to Meshna's at least once per week in those years. Tons >of big transformers, vacuum tubes, power supplies, O-scopes, and a lot of >World War 2 Army stuff thrown in for good measure. I remember the big >plastic bags of capacitors, resistors or even radio crystals for 1 dollar. >Jeesh, now that I think of it, those are damn good memories!! When I walked >up those wooden stairs onto the back long porch and went inside, I remember >the place had a particular odor of old wood which I really liked for some >reason. Just one of those things I guess! Sorry to hear that time has won >the race again, but that will never stop, and some things I will never >forget! > > > Rick Caprarella > > > > 19 Allerton St? From Lee.Courtney at windriver.com Tue Dec 12 09:41:53 2006 From: Lee.Courtney at windriver.com (Courtney, Lee) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:41:53 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life Message-ID: <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1C00@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com> Hi Eric, The Computer History Museum recently acquired a SDS 910, 920, and accepted donation of a SDS 930 (940 predecessor) from History San Jose. See pics at http://www.flickr.com/photos/lee_courtney/sets/72157594391790915/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/lee_courtney/sets/72157594391722530/. If your Dad is in the Bay Area would be happy to give him a tour at the Museum. Just had one of the original SDS/XDS HW designers come thru over Thanksgiving. Cheers, Lee Courtney Product Line Manager - Linux for Consumer Devices Wind River 500 Wind River Way Alameda, California 94501 Office: 510-749-2763 Cell: 650-704-3934 Yahoo IM: charlesleecourtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Flanzbaum > Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 10:38 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life > > > Well, it took a few years, but I finally brought my > PDP-11/70 > panel back to life: > > > http://www.saccade.com/writing/projects/PDP11/PDP-11.html > > > I'm afraid I don't have the space or power (or noise > tolerance!) > to have the real thing around. Has anybody > else brought panels > back to life? I'm aware of the Spare > Time Gizmos / Ersatz-11 > work, and of course the incredible > "Gallery of Old Iron". Any > others? > > > Very nice! I have an 11/70 panel sitting around -- and that > looks like an intriguing project to try. > > > > I own XDS (SDS) Sigma 9 Panel and brought it back to life. It was > quite an undertaking, as the panel consists of about 100 lamps -- and > hand wiring all of them took quite a bit of labor. > > It now blinks -- in some sort of random "computing" fashion -- but is > essentially a useless piece of eye-candy when it comes to being a > useful computer (after all, I don't have anything else except the > programming console). But I must admit, it is a pretty sight watching > all those blinkenlights flicker on and off :-) > > I wired it up basically in tribute to my father for a present -- who > was employee #9 (or maybe #10) at SDS way back in the early 1960s. > > > I also own an SDS 940 programming console -- but I've chosen to leave > that untouched (a dead soul, if you will). > > > -Eric > > > P.S. -- I'd post a video of it in action, but I don't own a video > camera (I'll have to borrow one). I did take a bunch of snapshots in > succession and piece them together -- kind of a kludge -- but you get > an idea of what it looks like after watching it. Not nearly as nice > if it were a smooth video though. If anyone is interested, and I can > get around to it, I'll post a picture or two, and the "piecemeal" > video on a website in the (maybe near) future. > > From kossow at computerhistory.org Tue Dec 12 09:47:02 2006 From: kossow at computerhistory.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:47:02 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? Message-ID: > We have the chips produced from earlier eras, but what attempts have > been made to preserve the design tools from those earlier eras? This is the same problem I've run into with minicomputer/mainframe software. No one thought it was important to save this, or if they did I've not been able to find anyone willing to release it. Some of the circuit design stuff (like ECAP) is around. I have some of the early Berkeley CAD tools tapes, and a few versions of Spice. Livermore/Stanford's SCALD system (which morphed into the SCALD product from Valid) is public domain, but I can't find anyone who saved a copy. I don't know of anyone who saved a complete Daisy Logician, or a Valid Logic SCALDstation (w software), or the VTI CAD tools (written in MAINSAIL). You'll also find this stuff was tightly licensed in the workstation world, since the price per seat was (is) so high. From HrTchDmoor at aol.com Tue Dec 12 12:48:32 2006 From: HrTchDmoor at aol.com (HrTchDmoor at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 13:48:32 EST Subject: Q-Bus Codar Clock Message-ID: Do you have any of these clock modules available for sell, P/N: ASM-951-1200? Her-Tech Solutions, Inc Donna Moore/ President 760-730-1499 ext: 111 donna at htsolutions.org From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 15:52:35 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 14:52:35 -0700 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? Message-ID: I had a dead VT220 at some point (just the monitor, no keyboard). I kept the enclosure with the idea of making something out of it someday. Has anyone taken 'classic' terminal enclosures and put a Mini-ITX PC inside? I was thinking an appropriately sized LCD display and the ITX mobo and possibly a CD-ROM drive. See for more on mini-itx projects. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 16:07:21 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:07:21 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:41:53 -0800. <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1C00@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com> Message-ID: In article <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1C00 at ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com>, "Courtney, Lee" writes: > The Computer History Museum recently acquired a SDS 910, 920, and > accepted donation of a SDS 930 (940 predecessor) from History San Jose. > See pics at > http://www.flickr.com/photos/lee_courtney/sets/72157594391790915/ and > http://www.flickr.com/photos/lee_courtney/sets/72157594391722530/. Interesting! Is the console typewriter (the red one) a modified IBM Selectric? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 15:50:19 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 14:50:19 -0700 Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 20:41:09 +0000. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > I should have scheamtics somewhere so I can find more details if you're > interested. Yes, that would be interesting! To me, anyway :). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Dec 12 16:20:49 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 23:20:49 +0100 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1165962049.12049.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 14:52 -0700, Richard wrote: > Has anyone taken 'classic' terminal enclosures and put a Mini-ITX PC > inside? I was thinking an appropriately sized LCD display and the ITX > mobo and possibly a CD-ROM drive. IMHO, that's just dull until you start driving the CRT itself. :) What's the point in just stripping out fixable hardware to stuff in the very kind of generic PC crap us cctalk escapists so loathe? Where's the challenge? Where's the fun? -Tore From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 16:40:43 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:40:43 -0700 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 23:20:49 +0100. <1165962049.12049.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: In article <1165962049.12049.14.camel at localhost.localdomain>, Tore Sinding Bekkedal writes: > What's the point in just stripping out fixable hardware to stuff in the > very kind of generic PC crap us cctalk escapists so loathe? Where's the > challenge? Where's the fun? Speak for yourself there, buddy. I have lots of fun with x86 stuff. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 12 16:47:58 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 22:47:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TMS340x0 (was: Any early DSP fans?) In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 12, 6 02:50:19 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > > > I should have scheamtics somewhere so I can find more details if you're > > interested. > > Yes, that would be interesting! To me, anyway :). OK, a roigh description of what's on the various boards. The I/O board contains anm 80188 with 512K DRAM (4 off 44256s) and a pair of 27C512 (64K byte) EPROMS. One is labelled COMM, the other TCP (hmm... ;-)) Ther's the 8042 microcontrolelr I mentioned which handles the PC/AT keyboard interface, along with the handshake lines for a centronics printer port and an interface to an E2PROM that holds the configuration. Sireail I/O uses a thing called a 2692, which seems to be a dual serial chip, for the mouse and host RS232 interfaces. Etehrnet uses the standard 8390 + 8391 chips, with am 8392 thinwire tranceiver on the same board (there are jumpers to select between that and the DA15 AUI port). One milidly odd thing is that there's no DC-DC converter for the ethernet transceiver. Insttair, the PSU has an isolated 9V output to run it. I don;t think there's anything more to say abotu the PSU. The video board hs the 34010 on it (of course), a copuple of 27512 EPROMS (presuambly boot code for the video processor), 2M of DRAM (16 off 44256s) and 1M of VRAM (8 off 24256s). Oh, and a RAMDAC The EPROM daugetboard has 7 pairs of 27256s on it (so a total of 14 * 64K of EPROM). -tony From reevejd at mchsi.com Tue Dec 12 17:19:02 2006 From: reevejd at mchsi.com (John D. Reeve) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 17:19:02 -0600 Subject: Anyone want 15 minutes of fame? References: <001001c71db7$195a2fb0$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: <005f01c71e43$f16ea1b0$75f2ce0c@gatewaynotebook> Evan, would you mind posting a list of the available kits? Thanks, John R. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Koblentz" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 12:31 AM Subject: Anyone want 15 minutes of fame? > Hi all. I'm writing an article for MIT's Technology Review magazine about > vintage computer replica kits. I need someone to interview RIGHT AWAY. > It's currently 1:30AM here on the east coast but that is okay. So, if > you're awake and have any opinions about the various replica kits, or > especially if you've built one or plan to get one soon, then email me > OFF-LIST but RIGHT NOW. (Sorry for the late notice!!) I'm at > evan at snarc.net. Be sure to leave your phone number because I don't have > time for playing tag tonight. > > Thanks! At least 15 minutes of fame gauranteed. :) > > - Evan > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 12 17:22:52 2006 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:22:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: <1165962049.12049.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1165962049.12049.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20061212152136.K41223@shell.lmi.net> > On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 14:52 -0700, Richard wrote: > > Has anyone taken 'classic' terminal enclosures and put a Mini-ITX PC > > inside? I was thinking an appropriately sized LCD display and the ITX > > mobo and possibly a CD-ROM drive. On Tue, 12 Dec 2006, Tore Sinding Bekkedal wrote: > IMHO, that's just dull until you start driving the CRT itself. :) > What's the point in just stripping out fixable hardware to stuff in the > very kind of generic PC crap us cctalk escapists so loathe? Where's the > challenge? Where's the fun? Put an Ampro little board and floppy drive in it, and call it a VT220 CP/M computer :-) From sethm at loomcom.com Tue Dec 12 17:36:55 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:36:55 -0800 Subject: TI Silent 700 models Message-ID: <20061212233655.GA10669@motherbrain.retronet.net> I have two TI Silent 700s, both claim to be model 743 KSRs. One of them only produces upper case. The other does lower case with small caps. Did any model Silent 700 ever do "true" lower-case, with descenders and ascenders, as opposed to small-caps only? -Seth From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 17:49:49 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 16:49:49 -0700 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:22:52 -0800. <20061212152136.K41223@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: In article <20061212152136.K41223 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin writes: > Put an Ampro little board and floppy drive in it, > and call it a VT220 CP/M computer :-) Now that I think about it, I could probably hork together a system for that TMS320C25 board I've got laying around :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Tue Dec 12 19:02:32 2006 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 17:02:32 -0800 Subject: I/O Selectric Typewriter Message-ID: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036623@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Many of the computer systems of the 1960's and and early 70's used the IBM Selectric typewriter as a console device. A few even used it as a peripheral (ex. IBM 2741). The typewriters were not standard office machines. They had a series of switches indicating status, key strike, end of line, etc. They also had solenoids on the control bars, and a timing distributor. I've been looking for one of these modified Selectrics for several months. Does anyone in this group have one they would be willing to sell or trade? Or knows where one is available? Billy From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Dec 12 20:02:49 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 21:02:49 -0500 Subject: Needed: Tape drive for reading DC300 and DC600 tapes (SCSI?) Message-ID: <200612122102.49426.pat@computer-refuge.org> I've got a stack of DC300 and DC600 tapes which I'd like to get images, for archiving. I'd like to find a SCSI drive which can read the tapes, so I can archive them, and hopefully make images of some of them available (they're install media for the Intel iPSC/860, and ETA-10 supercomputers). Another option is to send tapes to someone to make images of, but I've got well over 100 tapes, and I'm not quite sure if any of them have data that shouldn't be made available (other than the source code tapes, which I may not be able to make available). After this, I'm hoping to make available whatever I can (I also have some 9-tracks of install media for the ETA-10 and CDC Cyber 205). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 20:08:20 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 21:08:20 -0500 Subject: Q22 BUS parity check? Message-ID: Hello, I read the Q22 specification (search "Q22 specification" on this page: http://www.chd.dyndns.org/qbus_ide/ ) but the parity check function is still not clear to me. My questions are, 1. Is there parity check when interrupt vector is read ? 2. Is there parity check if IO page is read? 3. What is the polarity of the parity bit? Those questions are not answered from the specification. Any expert here? Thanks vax, 9000 From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Dec 12 20:07:10 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:07:10 -0800 Subject: TI Silent 700 models In-Reply-To: <20061212233655.GA10669@motherbrain.retronet.net> References: <20061212233655.GA10669@motherbrain.retronet.net> Message-ID: <457F604E.2090601@msm.umr.edu> Seth J. Morabito wrote: > > >Did any model Silent 700 ever do "true" lower-case, with descenders and >ascenders, as opposed to small-caps only? > > I had some users back in the day when I supported Silent 700's who complained about the lack of descenders for some projects we had, so in some models there was a problem. I never heard that it was resolved in any of the ones I saw. I don't have or remember model numbers any more, but my collection of units supported ranged from the 300 baud with and without acoutic couplers to the units with bubble memory, and 1200 buad modems, etc. Jim From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 20:36:06 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:36:06 +1300 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: <20061212152136.K41223@shell.lmi.net> References: <1165962049.12049.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061212152136.K41223@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 12/13/06, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 14:52 -0700, Richard wrote: > > > Has anyone taken 'classic' terminal enclosures and put a Mini-ITX PC > > > inside? I was thinking an appropriately sized LCD display and the ITX > > > mobo and possibly a CD-ROM drive. > Put an Ampro little board and floppy drive in it, > and call it a VT220 CP/M computer :-) Or an SBC6120 and make into an all-in-one PDP-8 with a handle ;-) -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 12 20:39:40 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 21:39:40 -0500 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: References: <1165962049.12049.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061212152136.K41223@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2006, at 9:36 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > > Has anyone taken 'classic' terminal enclosures and put a Mini- >> ITX PC >> > > inside? I was thinking an appropriately sized LCD display and >> the ITX >> > > mobo and possibly a CD-ROM drive. > >> Put an Ampro little board and floppy drive in it, >> and call it a VT220 CP/M computer :-) > > Or an SBC6120 and make into an all-in-one PDP-8 with a handle ;-) Oh that would be too damn cool. I *heart* my SBC6120. =) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From legalize at xmission.com Tue Dec 12 21:40:55 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 20:40:55 -0700 Subject: I/O Selectric Typewriter In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Dec 2006 17:02:32 -0800. <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036623@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: In article <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036623 at wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, "Billy Pettit" writes: > I've been looking for one of these modified Selectrics for several months. Join the club! I've been looking for one for years now. Its hard to even find *pictures* of these puppies on the net. I've had searches running on ebay for over a year and they've never burped out a hit. The model I remember using was turquoise in color and had the silver square IBM model number plate on it (although I can't remember the model). It took a type ball element, and had a keyboard similar to a selectric, but the physical enclosure was all different. Behind the typewriter was a big portion of the enclosure that presumably had the control electronics. It did not have an integrated acoustic coupler, was not integrated into a desk (pictures of "Model 2741" units on the net show the integrated desk version) and ran at 134.5 baud. I was using it in 1979/1980 and even then it was old, but it was an inexpensive way to get "letter quality" output on a terminal. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Dec 12 22:16:41 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 20:16:41 -0800 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:52 PM -0700 12/12/06, Richard wrote: >I had a dead VT220 at some point (just the monitor, no keyboard). I >kept the enclosure with the idea of making something out of it >someday. > >Has anyone taken 'classic' terminal enclosures and put a Mini-ITX PC >inside? I was thinking an appropriately sized LCD display and the ITX >mobo and possibly a CD-ROM drive. I've been wanting to put a Mini-ITX board in a working VT100, and set it up so that it will work as a desktop PDP-10. I've not done it as I don't have room to setup one of my VT100's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 22:29:51 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 20:29:51 -0800 Subject: Q22 BUS parity check? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: OK, I did some experiment and found the answer. See below. On 12/12/06, 9000 VAX wrote: > > Hello, > I read the Q22 specification (search "Q22 specification" on this page: > http://www.chd.dyndns.org/qbus_ide/ ) but the parity check function is > still not clear to me. My questions are, > 1. Is there parity check when interrupt vector is read ? Not tested. My guess is no. 2. Is there parity check if IO page is read? It is either no parity for I/O page, or my implementation is wrong. I get machine check error when "show dev", if I/O page parity on my board is enabled. 3. What is the polarity of the parity bit? (background: Q22 BUS uses negative logic. A "low" measured on the slots means '1'.) The parity bit is computed as "not (DAL15 xor DAL14 xor ... xor DAL0)" Those questions are not answered from the specification. Any expert here? > Thanks > > vax, 9000 > From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Dec 12 23:09:03 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 00:09:03 -0500 Subject: Needed: Tape drive for reading DC300 and DC600 tapes (SCSI?) In-Reply-To: <200612122102.49426.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200612122102.49426.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200612130009.03265.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 12 December 2006 21:02, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I've got a stack of DC300 and DC600 tapes which I'd like to get > images, for archiving. I'd like to find a SCSI drive which can read > the tapes, so I can archive them, and hopefully make images of some of > them available (they're install media for the Intel iPSC/860, and > ETA-10 supercomputers). Well, I guess I get to say "never mind". It appears that the Archive 2150S I've got actually does read DC600 and DC300 tapes. :) I'm suprised that this thing has a rubber roller that's still in good condition, and that the thing still reads tapes. Now, I'll see what I can do about making some of these tapes available. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 23:14:39 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 00:14:39 -0500 Subject: The power supply of my vax 3900 is making a weak squeaking sound Message-ID: It is on the CPU side. It sounds like there is a high voltage leakage problem. Before I open it for an investigation, could somebody with experience give me directions about what is the usual cause of this problem, which component to check, and how to fix the problem? I have experience with analog circuits. Thank you! vax, 9000 From elf at ucsd.edu Tue Dec 12 23:36:38 2006 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric Flanzbaum) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 21:36:38 -0800 Subject: SDS/XDS Programming Consoles [was: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life] In-Reply-To: <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1D3F@ALA-MAIL03.corp.a d.wrs.com> References: <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1D3F@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20061212213042.033bb930@ucsd.edu> > I own XDS (SDS) Sigma 9 Panel and brought it back to life. > It was quite an undertaking, as the panel consists of about > 100 lamps -- and hand wiring all of them took quite a bit of > labor. > It now blinks -- in some sort of random "computing" fashion > -- but is essentially a useless piece of eye-candy when it > comes to being a useful computer (after all, I don't have > anything else except the programming console). But I must > admit, it is a pretty sight watching all those blinkenlights > flicker on and off :-) > I also own an SDS 940 programming console -- but I've chosen > to leave that untouched (a dead soul, if you will). > -Eric > P.S. -- I'd post a video of it in action, but I don't own > a video camera (I'll have to borrow one). I did take a bunch > of snapshots in succession and piece them together -- kind of > a kludge -- but you get an idea of what it looks like after > watching it. Not nearly as nice if it were a smooth video though. > If anyone is interested, and I can get around to it, I'll post > a picture or two, and the "piecemeal" video on a website in > the (maybe near) future. I put up a few snapshots of my XDS Sigma 9 Console in action, and a snapshot of my XDS "dead" SDS 940 Console. I chose not to put up the kludged "snapshot video" of the XDS Sigma 9 Console just because it really doesn't do justice to what it looks like when it comes to life. Anyway, if interested, see: http://www.flickr.com/photos/27979878 at N00/ -Eric From Lee.Courtney at windriver.com Tue Dec 12 20:22:21 2006 From: Lee.Courtney at windriver.com (Courtney, Lee) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 18:22:21 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life Message-ID: <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1D3F@ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com> Yes - both the consoles pictured were modified Selectrics used as consoles for the 910 and 920. Which is interesting as SDS went to a EBCDIC teletype for the Sigma series. Lee Courtney Product Line Manager - Linux for Consumer Devices Wind River 500 Wind River Way Alameda, California 94501 Office: 510-749-2763 Cell: 650-704-3934 Yahoo IM: charlesleecourtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 2:07 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Eric Flanzbaum > Subject: Re: PDP-11/70 Panel brought back to life > > > In article > <19F49A6EFCA3D849A4C1C46C3566EBF2010A1C00 at ALA-MAIL03.corp.ad.wrs.com>, > "Courtney, Lee" writes: > > > The Computer History Museum recently acquired a SDS 910, 920, and > > accepted donation of a SDS 930 (940 predecessor) from > History San Jose. > > See pics at > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/lee_courtney/sets/72157594391790915/ and > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/lee_courtney/sets/72157594391722530/. > > Interesting! Is the console typewriter (the red one) a > modified IBM Selectric? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available > for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Dec 13 01:29:23 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 01:29:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: I/O Selectric Typewriter In-Reply-To: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036623@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> References: <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036623@wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Dec 2006, Billy Pettit wrote: > Many of the computer systems of the 1960's and and early 70's used the > IBM Selectric typewriter as a console device. A few even used it as a > peripheral (ex. IBM 2741). > > The typewriters were not standard office machines. They had a series of > switches indicating status, key strike, end of line, etc. They also had > solenoids on the control bars, and a timing distributor. > > I've been looking for one of these modified Selectrics for several > months. Does anyone in this group have one they would be willing to sell > or trade? Or knows where one is available? I have one that I posted about several years ago though its not for sale. You might be able to find the post in the list archive. It was modified to work as a printer for a TRS-80 model 1. It has a special interface box that the TRS-80's printer cable connects to. It came with a Selectric typewriter service manual when I got it from the original owner, but that manual doesn't exactly cover the whole unit as it isn't a true typewriter. The keys would not do anything the last time I had it set up. I think when the modifications were made to it the keys were disabled somehow. I plan to fully restore it to working condition one of these days... -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Dec 13 01:32:39 2006 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 01:32:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: I/O Selectric Typewriter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Dec 2006, Richard wrote: > In article <5BC121186B788C48A0EE35A16FD0D34D036623 at wdscexbe01.sc.wdc.com>, > "Billy Pettit" writes: > >> I've been looking for one of these modified Selectrics for several >> months. > > Join the club! > > I've been looking for one for years now. Its hard to even find > *pictures* of these puppies on the net. I've had searches running on > ebay for over a year and they've never burped out a hit. The model I > remember using was turquoise in color and had the silver square IBM > model number plate on it (although I can't remember the model). It took > a type ball element, and had a keyboard similar to a selectric, but the > physical enclosure was all different. Behind the typewriter was a big > portion of the enclosure that presumably had the control electronics. > It did not have an integrated acoustic coupler, was not integrated into > a desk (pictures of "Model 2741" units on the net show the integrated > desk version) and ran at 134.5 baud. I was using it in 1979/1980 and > even then it was old, but it was an inexpensive way to get "letter > quality" output on a terminal. Ok, I guess I'm going to have to get mine out of storage and get it cleaned up at least for a photo shoot... Its up on a high, difficult to get to storage shelf behind a bunch of heavy stuff...and its heavy too ;P -Toth From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed Dec 13 02:38:46 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 09:38:46 +0100 Subject: VR241 and X.Org Message-ID: <1165999126.12049.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> I'm playing around with a VR241 - the colour monitor bit of the VT241 - and trying to make it work as a standard video monitor. It has two pairs of RGB+sync inputs, and an "INT/EXT" (presumably sync) toggle switch. I have been unable to find any specifications for this monitor online. I don't think the Monitor Database one is correct - if it is, I'm doing something wrong. Is it possible to hook this thing up to a PC? Is there anything I need to bear in mind when configuring X? TIA, -Tore From cc at corti-net.de Wed Dec 13 03:43:53 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:43:53 +0100 (CET) Subject: BASF 6114 disk drive In-Reply-To: <457EEEB1.6090407@bitsavers.org> References: <457EEEB1.6090407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Dec 2006, Al Kossow wrote: >> Do you have a picture of it? > I picture would be useful. If it's from Dortmund, I don't seem to have a Yes, it's from Dortmund. I have a flyer dating from 1972 for the WSP 414 drive (which is exactly the same; used to be hooked up to the TR-440), it can be found on our ftp server ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/telefunken/doku/wsp414* We once had a TR-440 in Stuttgart, too. It was in service from around 1973 until 1982 when it was replaced by a VAX11/780. We had a really large installation (but long before my time), and still have many documents. These scans are a small part of it. The drive uses Memorex Mark VI or IBM 2316 compatible media, thus has 11 platters with 20 recording surfaces. It must be an American product, all writings and notes inside the drive are in English, and everything looks very like either a CDC drive or a Memorex drive (may it be a Memorex 670 or the like?). Anyway, the interface to the drive is the good old standard, i.e. one big cable like a fire hose, three phases power connector (although this drive only needs one) etc. > The 9766 is the drive with the pack on top. There is a CDC FSD drive directly > below that. This is much too modern. Christian From borisg at unixg.ubc.ca Wed Dec 13 04:13:39 2006 From: borisg at unixg.ubc.ca (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 02:13:39 -0800 Subject: Machine Independent Storage Idea... In-Reply-To: <45767C14.8714.2D095439@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1165400575.32029.24.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20061213015837.03429680@mail.interchange.ubc.ca> Haven't been following this list for some time, but the few times I do look at archived listings I find gems like these. Thanks for the link Chuck as futurlec is the first place that I've found that carries a PCI digital I/O card for only $40! (A lot easier option than my building one in my (almost non-existent) spare time). To put in my $0.02 worth about the machine independant storage idea, I'm partial to using IDE disks as the medium as these are directly readable by PC's via an external IDE firewire to PC interface and could also be used as a disk drive on the old machine. I started the design of a parallel port to IDE interface for the PDP-11 a few years ago but this was shelved when my girlfriend told me that either the PDP-11/23 MINC system in my living room went or she went. Still have the PDP-11 system, but she doesn't know where I've stashed it. Parallel port type interfaces are available on most old machines and if one used a USB flash drive, one would have to do serial to parallel data conversion as part of the interface, so why not go with a parallel data interface the whole way? Flashdrives are smaller, but most of my PC's don't have USB interfaces and I can quickly add an IDE disk drive to my old systems for copying data. Another option is to use a serial port for transfers and this is how I used to load software on my diskless PDP-11 systems. Can't get much simpler than that. >On 6 Dec 2006 at 10:46, Simon Fryer wrote: > > > I was thinking of doing the same sort of thing but using compact flash > > cards and building some electronics as the interface for the QIC tape > > interface. Thinking about it is about as far as I got. From what I > > understand, the electronics and software for interfacing Compact Flash > > is a little easier than USB. > >I've been toying with the idea of using a CF to provide emulation for >floppy drives. More complicated, as the thing has to look like a >floppy. Rather than record separated data, I'm inclined to record >flux transitions on the CF, so a disk would require something on the >order of 128KBytes per track (for a 300 RPM 500KHz drive). i.e., >the drive would be data-encoding independent. Since one can get 4GB >CF cards, this shouldn't be a problem . Managing multiple images >from a single CF card will require some careful thought. Simulating >multiple drives with a single unit is another possibility. > >There are still whole segments of the industrial market where >floppies represent the only available interface for older equipment. > >For the interested, here's a RS232/485-to-CF card development board. >Note that it's pretty simple, using a PIC for most functions. > >http://www.futurlec.com/CompBoard_Technical.shtml > >I've been using the same outfit's USB-to-parallell I/O module and >find that it's easy to use (and plugs into a 32-pin DIP socket). > >Cheers, >Chuck From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Dec 13 02:21:39 2006 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:21:39 +0000 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: References: <1165962049.12049.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061212152136.K41223@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <457FB813.4030008@gjcp.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 12/13/06, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 14:52 -0700, Richard wrote: >> > > Has anyone taken 'classic' terminal enclosures and put a Mini-ITX PC >> > > inside? I was thinking an appropriately sized LCD display and the >> ITX >> > > mobo and possibly a CD-ROM drive. > >> Put an Ampro little board and floppy drive in it, >> and call it a VT220 CP/M computer :-) > > Or an SBC6120 and make into an all-in-one PDP-8 with a handle ;-) Sort of requires that the VT220 works and has a keyboard, but yeah - it *would* be good. Could you make up a sticker for the front (stencil?) and label it "DECMate IV"? Gordon From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Dec 13 09:38:31 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:38:31 -0500 Subject: vt52 7x7 font? Message-ID: <200612131538.kBDFcW2T009770@mwave.heeltoe.com> Any chance anyone has the VT52 7x7 font in some digital form? (the actual prom would be nice but I doubt anyone has pulled the chip) -brad From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 13 10:00:14 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:00:14 -0800 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:22 AM -0700 12/12/06, Richard wrote: >In article , > "Zane H. Healy" writes: > >> Have you seen the prices of just a single seat of that kind of >> software? > >Yes, but I hadn't thought about licensing, that's a good point. > >I wonder if these companies even keep around a piece of their history >or if its lost forever? It depends on a lot of factors. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Dec 13 10:07:14 2006 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:07:14 -0800 Subject: BASF 6114 disk drive Message-ID: <45802532.7070706@bitsavers.org> > I have a flyer dating from 1972 for the WSP 414 > drive (which is exactly the same; used to be hooked up to the TR-440) It is a Century Data 114 drive. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/centuryData/TM114-1072-J-1M_Model_114_Tech_Oct73.pdf From rickb at bensene.com Wed Dec 13 10:30:59 2006 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:30:59 -0800 Subject: I/O Selectric Typewriter Message-ID: Billy Pettit wrote: >Many of the computer systems of the 1960's and and early 70's used the IBM >Selectric typewriter as a console device. A few even used it as a >peripheral ... Another source, although not exactly the same as a Selectric I/O, is the Wang Model 611/711 Input/Output writer. This was a rather standard IBM Selectric 72 modified by Wang with solenoids and various switches, which interfaced with a Wang 600 or 700-Series calculator, and provided full input/output capabilities. Like Selectric I/O's, these devices aren't common, but they add to the search base. The solenoids controlled the tilt/rotate action of the typeball, key activation, index, carriage return, tab set, tab clear, tab, and backspace. The interface used Wang-proprietary character codes, but was a very simple parallel interface. Datasheet at http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/a-wang711.html Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 13 10:44:15 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:44:15 -0500 Subject: Needed: Tape drive for reading DC300 and DC600 tapes (SCSI?) In-Reply-To: <200612130009.03265.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200612122102.49426.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200612130009.03265.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <7E232A9E-CA54-4496-B5CD-EA30B65C7255@neurotica.com> On Dec 13, 2006, at 12:09 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> I've got a stack of DC300 and DC600 tapes which I'd like to get >> images, for archiving. I'd like to find a SCSI drive which can read >> the tapes, so I can archive them, and hopefully make images of >> some of >> them available (they're install media for the Intel iPSC/860, and >> ETA-10 supercomputers). > > Well, I guess I get to say "never mind". It appears that the Archive > 2150S I've got actually does read DC600 and DC300 tapes. :) It can read, but not write, the lower-density formats if memory serves. > I'm suprised that this thing has a rubber roller that's still in good > condition, and that the thing still reads tapes. The 2150S isn't *that* old. I'd not expect rubber goo in one of those for another few years yet. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Dec 13 10:47:52 2006 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:47:52 -0500 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2006, at 5:40 PM, Richard wrote: >> What's the point in just stripping out fixable hardware to stuff >> in the >> very kind of generic PC crap us cctalk escapists so loathe? >> Where's the >> challenge? Where's the fun? > > Speak for yourself there, buddy. I have lots of fun with x86 stuff. Yes. But we like you anyway. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Cape Coral, FL From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 11:40:19 2006 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:40:19 -0500 Subject: Needed: Tape drive for reading DC300 and DC600 tapes (SCSI?) In-Reply-To: <200612130009.03265.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200612122102.49426.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200612130009.03265.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4affc5e0612130940j3c0f7acch744a6f01f996f8cd@mail.gmail.com> On 12/13/06, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Well, I guess I get to say "never mind". It appears that the Archive > 2150S I've got actually does read DC600 and DC300 tapes. :) If it does turn out you need a drive, I think I have 2 old DC600 SCSI drives kicking around somewhere, but in currently unknown state. If need be I could test them and give them to you for cost of shipping - contact me off-list if you do need one. Joe. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 11:39:06 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:39:06 -0700 Subject: ebay seller computermkt Message-ID: Has anyone purchased from this guy? He has a lot of weird stuff, but the pricing seems like he took the high number form suggested range in "Collectible Microcomputers" and multiplied it by 10 or 20. You'll also note that every item is marked "rare" even things like Atari 800! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cc at corti-net.de Wed Dec 13 11:43:11 2006 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:43:11 +0100 (CET) Subject: BASF 6114 disk drive In-Reply-To: <45802532.7070706@bitsavers.org> References: <45802532.7070706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Dec 2006, Al Kossow wrote: > It is a Century Data 114 drive. Thank you! Christian From evan at snarc.net Wed Dec 13 11:53:28 2006 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:53:28 -0500 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002f01c71edf$98c31310$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> That's been discussed here before. He also buys at high prices, so that when you question his sales he can say "well look at the recent sales of this item". -----Original Message----- From: Richard [mailto:legalize at xmission.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 12:39 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: ebay seller computermkt Has anyone purchased from this guy? He has a lot of weird stuff, but the pricing seems like he took the high number form suggested range in "Collectible Microcomputers" and multiplied it by 10 or 20. You'll also note that every item is marked "rare" even things like Atari 800! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Dec 13 12:16:02 2006 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:16:02 -0500 Subject: The power supply of my vax 3900 is making a weak squeaking sound Message-ID: > It is on the CPU side. It sounds like there is a high voltage leakage > problem. You turn it on, and it goes "squeak squeak squeak squeak"? Maybe the LED on the supply is faintly blinking at the same rate? This is the symptom if there isn't the required minimum power load in the Q-bus backplane. The power supply begins to start up, doesn't see enough load, and shuts down, and this repeats every second or so. For minimally configured systems there was a Q-bus card with a bunch of resistors to suck up some current. I think in the box, that one of the two power supplies does the odd-numbered slots, and the other does the even numbered slots. Loads must be distributed to cover both supplies and both supplies need their minimum load met. Sometimes even if you have the required minimum load the power supply will not start up with this symptom. Adding more load seems to help! Tim. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 12:31:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:31:57 -0700 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:53:28 -0500. <002f01c71edf$98c31310$6401a8c0@DESKTOP> Message-ID: In article <002f01c71edf$98c31310$6401a8c0 at DESKTOP>, "Evan Koblentz" writes: > That's been discussed here before. I remember we talked about "IT EQUIPMENT EXPRESS", but I forgot (or wasn't here at the time) the conversation about this guy. > He also buys at high prices, so that > when you question his sales he can say "well look at the recent sales of > this item". heh heh... that's a tactic that only works for so long unless you've got really deep pockets! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 12:33:40 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:33:40 -0700 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:21:39 +0000. <457FB813.4030008@gjcp.net> Message-ID: In article <457FB813.4030008 at gjcp.net>, Gordon JC Pearce writes: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 12/13/06, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> > On Tue, 2006-12-12 at 14:52 -0700, Richard wrote: > >> > > Has anyone taken 'classic' terminal enclosures and put a Mini-ITX PC > >> > > inside? I was thinking an appropriately sized LCD display and the > >> ITX > >> > > mobo and possibly a CD-ROM drive. > > > >> Put an Ampro little board and floppy drive in it, > >> and call it a VT220 CP/M computer :-) > > > > Or an SBC6120 and make into an all-in-one PDP-8 with a handle ;-) > > Sort of requires that the VT220 works and has a keyboard, but yeah - it > *would* be good. > > Could you make up a sticker for the front (stencil?) and label it > "DECMate IV"? Yeah, I like that idea. If you're going that route, you might as well go whole hog and create a board that goes straight into the VT backplane. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 12:34:10 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:34:10 -0700 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:21:39 +0000. <457FB813.4030008@gjcp.net> Message-ID: Oops, I guess the 220 doesn't have a backplane, but the 10x's do... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 13 12:43:26 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:43:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 13, 2006 11:34:10 AM Message-ID: <200612131843.kBDIhRqH010595@onyx.spiritone.com> > Oops, I guess the 220 doesn't have a backplane, but the 10x's do... I thought that was just the VT103 that has a (16-bit?) Q-Bus backplane. Zane From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Dec 13 13:50:51 2006 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:50:51 -0800 Subject: TI Silent 700 models In-Reply-To: <20061212233655.GA10669@motherbrain.retronet.net> References: <20061212233655.GA10669@motherbrain.retronet.net> Message-ID: <20061213195051.GA27649@motherbrain.retronet.net> On Tue, Dec 12, 2006 at 03:36:55PM -0800, Seth J. Morabito wrote: > [...] > Did any model Silent 700 ever do "true" lower-case, with descenders and > ascenders, as opposed to small-caps only? Aha! Following up on my own message... I've seen some mention that the TI Silent 700 Model 785 did true upper and lower case. Now that I've established that, does anyone have a model 785 that they can confirm this with? Better yet, anyone have one they'd be willing to sell? ;) -Seth From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 13:43:44 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 12:43:44 -0700 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:43:26 -0800. <200612131843.kBDIhRqH010595@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: In article <200612131843.kBDIhRqH010595 at onyx.spiritone.com>, "Zane H. Healy" writes: > > Oops, I guess the 220 doesn't have a backplane, but the 10x's do... > > I thought that was just the VT103 that has a (16-bit?) Q-Bus backplane. The other VT10x's have a backplane, but it probably doesn't have a full Q-bus on it. The backplane does give you access to the keyboard and the video signal, IIRC. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 13 15:08:32 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:08:32 -0600 Subject: ebay seller computermkt References: Message-ID: <002f01c71efa$d96216d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> I agree his prices are sky high. However, if he ever happened to have that one rare piece I need to finish off a system.... More the point, as this stuff gets more and more rare, someday we'll be glad he's around as he'll still have it all ;) Jay From drb at msu.edu Wed Dec 13 15:19:16 2006 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:19:16 -0500 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:39:06 MST.) References: Message-ID: <200612132119.kBDLJGnj017087@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Has anyone purchased from this guy? I have. He does list sky-high prices, etc. He clearly had no idea what he was selling in the old Prime gear I bought from him, had it mislabelled badly, and didn't take me up on my offer to help id it. That may vary depending on the gear in question. But he was pretty easy to deal with, and while his packaging wasn't great, it wasn't horrible. Watch for a while; he seems to occasionally list things at substantially reduced prices. After he's had it for a while and has tried a lower price with no luck he may take a more sane offer. De From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 15:39:54 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:39:54 +1300 Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: <457FB813.4030008@gjcp.net> References: <1165962049.12049.14.camel@localhost.localdomain> <20061212152136.K41223@shell.lmi.net> <457FB813.4030008@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 12/13/06, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Or an SBC6120 and make into an all-in-one PDP-8 with a handle ;-) > > Sort of requires that the VT220 works and has a keyboard, but yeah - it > *would* be good. True, that. It wouldn't do much if the VT220 wasn't running. > Could you make up a sticker for the front (stencil?) and label it > "DECMate IV"? Heh... that would be a nice touch. Another nice touch would be to find a way to mount an CF-IDE adapter accessible to the outside so that you could have removable boot media. You'd have to start hacking the case at that point, I'd expect. If you did the same sort of thing with a VT100, you could just fabricate a new cover plate and mount the CF-IDE to that - plenty of room in there. The innards of a VT220 are substantially more crowded. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 13 15:51:49 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:51:49 -0600 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested Message-ID: <00a901c71f00$e6fba120$6500a8c0@BILLING> Listowners perogative to ask a question that is only halfway on topic.... ;) I figure some people here may have some good suggestions - offlist please. There is a SpamAssassin machine(s) filtering spam being sent to the list that sits in front of the classiccmp server (we're also making use of Pyzor, Razor, milter-ahead, and clamav). It's been doing a wonderful job, such that most spam is kept out of the moderators faces. However, over the past few months I've noticed that more and more is getting through (not to the list, but to the moderators eyes who have to kill it all manually). Same goes for many of my customers. What concerns me is that 99% of the new spam making it through is vaguely sensible english phrases (apparently automatically pulled from online books, or from usenet post archives, etc.). If there was also an advertisement text, Spamassassin could catch that. However, the text is all just english phrases (I've noted them to be targeted phrases, like having to do with computers, sometimes old ones) BUT... the advertisement is a graphic attachment. Since SpamAssassin can't do OCR on the small gif or jpg attachment that says "buy viagra here"... I am not sure what to do about this. It comes from all over, not just a few servers, etc. Before you say "just kill all emails with graphic attachments"... keep in mind that these spamassassin machines do their job for thousands of domains that I host, not just classiccmp.org. So just killing all emails with graphic attachments is simply not an option. If anyone can give me a few ideas that will work well for ISP/hosting-class environments, I'd love to hear it. Off-list please! Thanks in advance for any advice. Best regards, Jay West From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 15:55:01 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:55:01 -0700 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:08:32 -0600. <002f01c71efa$d96216d0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <002f01c71efa$d96216d0$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > I agree his prices are sky high. However, if he ever happened to have that > one rare piece I need to finish off a system.... He doesn't seem to have much of anything in the minicomputer realm. Almost everything seems to be microcomputers. Although he does have some weird stuff I haven't heard of before I read "Collectible Microcomputers". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 13 15:59:05 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:59:05 +0000 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <4655.86.144.143.49.1165540226.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> Message-ID: On 8/12/06 01:10, "Lee Davison" wrote: >> The downside, of course, is that as the hobbyist-end-user, you are >> somewhat out in the cold if you don't own a GAL programmer. They can >> easily run to hundreds of dollars for basic ones, and, unlike an old >> 4K EPROM, they are not trivial to make programmers for from scratch. > > There are no excuses .. http://www.geocities.com/mwinterhoff/galblast.htm Suddenly, I might be able to fix my Commodore 65! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 16:01:52 2006 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 11:01:52 +1300 Subject: History of EDA (electronic design automation)? In-Reply-To: <457EDD44.1080801@philpem.me.uk> References: <457E6801.327.117555D9@cclist.sydex.com> <457EDD44.1080801@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 12/13/06, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I've still got a copy of the first Orcad SDT--ran on a PC-XT (I think > > it coiuld run on floppies) using CGA or Hercules. > > From what I can gather, you needed two floppy drives - one for the OrCAD > program disc, and another for your 'work' disc. I'm not sure I have the oldest version, but I do have a DOS-only version of OrCAD schematic capture (not the layout tool) that we used to use in the late 1980s. At the time, it was on a genuine PC-AT with a 40MB hard disk, so I'm not sure about floppy requirements. We used it with PADS-PCB for layout. I have lots of experience with schematic capture and OrCAD, but almost no experience with PADS-PCB and layout. I tried to do some simple stuff a while back, but got stymied trying to export the schematic with enough content for PADS to be happy importing it. For modern stuff, though, I've switched to EagleCAD and have been quite happy with that. I always like the DOS OrCAD interface. -ethan From feedle at feedle.net Wed Dec 13 16:03:30 2006 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:03:30 -0700 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <00a901c71f00$e6fba120$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <00a901c71f00$e6fba120$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <458078B2.8000709@feedle.net> Jay West wrote: > > Before you say "just kill all emails with graphic attachments"... keep > in mind that these spamassassin machines do their job for thousands of > domains that I host, not just classiccmp.org. So just killing all > emails with graphic attachments is simply not an option. If anyone can > give me a few ideas that will work well for ISP/hosting-class > environments, I'd love to hear it. Off-list please! Thanks in advance > for any advice. Jay: It is my casual observation that the classiccmp.org lists are hosted at Dreamhost. I don't know exactly what the relationship between you and Dreamhost is (that is, whether you are simply a customer like I am or have friends that work there.. or work there yourself), but it might be possible for you to talk to somebody there and get some special rules inserted for just the classiccmp lists. It is my understanding that some ability to write custom procmail rules before it hits the mailman server is possible. Whether or not Dreamhost can/will do it is probably the subject of some debate.. generally, I've found them to be quite cooperative in setting up "weird stuff" if it makes sense and is not too overly hard. I've been having the same problem on my personal listserv. I just trash any mail containing graphics. As you pointed out, however, that would have interesting results on a public mail host. -fedl From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 13 16:16:10 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:16:10 -0600 Subject: ebay seller computermkt References: Message-ID: <00cd01c71f04$4efafbb0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Richard wrote.... > He doesn't seem to have much of anything in the minicomputer realm. > Almost everything seems to be microcomputers. Although he does have > some weird stuff I haven't heard of before I read "Collectible > Microcomputers". And I'm minicomputer only? I daresay my heathkit (808x & Z80) collection FAR outweighs my mini collection - at least in volume. Add to that my love for Apple ]['s, I've got a bunch of MC68000 systems, and a few 80286 non-pc's... I wasn't looking at him for minicomputer stuff ;) Matter of fact, most (but not all) folks I'm aware of that collect big-iron also collect some smaller (micro) systems. And last I checked, many of us have DEC micros like the 11/23 :D Jay From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Wed Dec 13 16:18:29 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:18:29 -0700 Subject: FA: HP HP-2117F on ebay Message-ID: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org> I don't know anything about HP minis, so I don't know what to look for, but for those on the list that have HPs and might be interested... The main unit: item # 320060663740 The FP unit: item # 320060663048 No bids yet. J From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 16:28:05 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:28:05 -0500 Subject: The power supply of my vax 3900 is making a weak squeaking sound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/13/06, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > It is on the CPU side. It sounds like there is a high voltage leakage > > problem. > > You turn it on, and it goes "squeak squeak squeak squeak"? Maybe > the LED on the supply is faintly blinking at the same rate? Thank you, but it is different. It makes a continuous sound that is more like a static discharge. The computer still works, so it might not the power load problem. Furthermore, After about 6 hours of use, the sound of the power supply seemed gone. This is the symptom if there isn't the required minimum power load > in the Q-bus backplane. The power supply begins to start up, doesn't > see enough load, and shuts down, and this repeats every second > or so. > > For minimally configured systems there was a Q-bus card with > a bunch of resistors to suck up some current. > > I think in the box, that one of the two power supplies does the > odd-numbered slots, and the other does the even numbered slots. > Loads must be distributed to cover both supplies and both supplies > need their minimum load met. I did not know this. I thought they worked for each half of the QBUS. I have a M9060 that I put in the very last slot to make the left side power supply happy. Maybe it happens to be an even numbered slot. vax, 9000 Sometimes even if you have the required minimum load the power > supply will not start up with this symptom. Adding more load > seems to help! > Tim. > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 13 16:36:36 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:36:36 -0600 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested References: <00a901c71f00$e6fba120$6500a8c0@BILLING> <458078B2.8000709@feedle.net> Message-ID: <00f001c71f07$26793be0$6500a8c0@BILLING> You wrote.... > It is my casual observation that the classiccmp.org lists are hosted at > Dreamhost. Uh, no. I own an ISP/Webhosting/Colocation firm. We have our own datacenter with rows & rows of racks full of customer servers as well as our own servers for our hosting/access service. We do not host our servers with another company. I have no clue why you get the idea that some company called dreamhost is hosting the classiccmp list. However, you can bet that I am going to investigate how/why it appears that way ;) The classiccmp list is hosted by me gratis on a server that I put in my own datacenter. I figure if I have the datacenter, it costs me nothing to take a server and allocate it to the classiccmp cause for free. The membership of the list at large occasionally pony's up donations to cover hardware upgrades, etc. All my time maintaining the server is gratis. In addition to hosting the list at no charge, I also have a standing offer that I will host any non-commercial classic computer related website totally free of charge. I also host the primary bitsavers.org website as well as scads of other classic computer sites. I do not own or control those other sites, I just provide the hosting for them on my servers (and administer the server itself). > I don't know exactly what the relationship between you and Dreamhost is > (that is, whether you are simply a customer like I am or have friends that > work there.. or work there yourself), There is no relationship, I've never heard of them, at least in relation to me. The classiccmp list is certainly not hosted on any servers and/or service that they provide. > but it might be possible for you to talk to somebody there and get some > special rules inserted for just the classiccmp lists. Uh, I can into the datacenter and connect a console to the classiccmp server, log in as root, and hack up mailman any way I want :) No need to call anyone ;) > It is my understanding that some ability to write custom procmail rules > before it hits the mailman server is possible. Yes, it is possible. But due to the way these particular emails are crafted, no amount of custom/special rules will help. See my description of how they are doing it. > I've been having the same problem on my personal listserv. I just trash > any mail containing graphics. As you pointed out, however, that would > have interesting results on a public mail host. I have thousands of domains I host, and I'm sure those clients would get a bit miffed if I said "no more graphic attachments". I think I'd lose many customers in a day ;) Actually... most of them would bolt because they INSIST on all their emails having graphic business cards/signatures at the bottom. *sigh*. Maybe spamassassin will find a way to progress in the tit-for-tat war with spammers. Jay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 13 16:38:07 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:38:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: The power supply of my vax 3900 is making a weak squeaking sound In-Reply-To: from "9000 VAX" at Dec 13, 6 00:14:39 am Message-ID: > > It is on the CPU side. It sounds like there is a high voltage leakage > problem. Before I open it for an investigation, could somebody with > experience give me directions about what is the usual cause of this problem, > which component to check, and how to fix the problem? I have experience with > analog circuits. Thank you! A squeaking SMPSU normally means it's detecting an error (overcurrent, which may, in turn be due to overvoltage tripping a crowbar circuit which then shorts out the suppyl), shutting down (the oscillation frequency may then go trhough the audible rangs), then starting up and trying again, etc. If the problem is certainly inside the supply (i.e. it contines doing it on summy load), I'd suspect either a failure of the regulation feedback loop (thus casuing the overvoltage problem), or a shorted capacitor or rectifier diode on the scondary side of the supply. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 13 16:34:03 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:34:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Q22 BUS parity check? In-Reply-To: from "9000 VAX" at Dec 12, 6 09:08:20 pm Message-ID: > > Hello, > I read the Q22 specification (search "Q22 specification" on this page: > http://www.chd.dyndns.org/qbus_ide/ ) but the parity check function is still > not clear to me. My questions are, > 1. Is there parity check when interrupt vector is read ? > 2. Is there parity check if IO page is read? > 3. What is the polarity of the parity bit? > > Those questions are not answered from the specification. Any expert here? Assuming it's like Unibus (and I am pretty sure it is), I think your confusion coimes from not realising what device actually does the partity check. What it really is is that a memory board can signal an error on read, which was often down by a parity check. It _could_ be done by, say, having ECC memory and having the error signals if there were too many bit errors to correct. It's tbe memory board (or memory controller) that checks parity, nnt any part of the CPU hardware. So to answer your questions: 1) There could be, it depends on the memory board where the vector is stored. 2) Not normally, I don't think any standard I/O devices checked parity on reads 3) Depends on the memory board, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 13 16:41:27 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:41:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VR241 and X.Org In-Reply-To: <1165999126.12049.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> from "Tore Sinding Bekkedal" at Dec 13, 6 09:38:46 am Message-ID: > > I'm playing around with a VR241 - the colour monitor bit of the VT241 - > and trying to make it work as a standard video monitor. It has two pairs It _is_ a standard video monitor (it's actually a Hitachi chassis inside...) > of RGB+sync inputs, and an "INT/EXT" (presumably sync) toggle switch. Yes, that switch selects between separate composite sync on the fourth BNC socket and sync-on-green. > > I have been unable to find any specifications for this monitor online. I > don't think the Monitor Database one is correct - if it is, I'm doing > something wrong. It's a normal TV rate (that is, 15.7kHz horizontal, 60Hz vertical) RGB analogue monitor. > > Is it possible to hook this thing up to a PC? Is there anything I need > to bear in mind when configuring X? It will not sunc to nromal VGA frequencies. Period. I cna't think of a PC video adapter that will easily drive it, either. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 13 16:21:32 2006 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:21:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: mini-ITX VT220? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Dec 12, 6 03:40:43 pm Message-ID: > > What's the point in just stripping out fixable hardware to stuff in the > > very kind of generic PC crap us cctalk escapists so loathe? Where's the > > challenge? Where's the fun? > > Speak for yourself there, buddy. I have lots of fun with x86 stuff. Yes, so do I, but with properly docuemtned, repairable 80x86 stuff. Not with boards that contain a few BGA-packaged chips that I can't probe the connections to (even if I had a fast enough logic analyser), that I can't desolder and resolder, and that I couldn't get as spare parts anyway. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 13 17:05:29 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:05:29 +0000 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <00f001c71f07$26793be0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On 13/12/06 22:36, "Jay West" wrote: > The classiccmp list is hosted by me gratis on a server that I put in my own > datacenter. I figure if I have the datacenter, it costs me nothing to take a > server and allocate it to the classiccmp cause for free. The membership of Thanks for the server, Jay :) If I had a datacentre I'd do the same thing; in fact if you could tell me that classiccmp is hosted on an HP DL360 (or something similar) I could probably pony up some spares..... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Dec 13 18:06:22 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:06:22 -0300 Subject: [Offtopic]:Brazilians? References: Message-ID: <010001c71f13$ceb3fb90$f0fea8c0@alpha> Just out of curiosity: Anyone from Brazil here? Or I'm the only one? Greetz, Alexandre Souza From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Dec 13 18:08:41 2006 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:08:41 -0300 Subject: VR241 and X.Org References: Message-ID: <010101c71f14$0820e910$f0fea8c0@alpha> > It will not sunc to nromal VGA frequencies. Period. I cna't think of a PC > video adapter that will easily drive it, either. You can use ArcadeOS in DOS or PowerStrip in windows to create a mode with 15KHz horizontal sync. I use it here at my home. Almost all PC VGA adapters works. Of course, you'll not have full VGA resolution since the dot pitch of the tube (and the resolution of the circuit itself) will be way lower. I'd not go above 320 x 400. Good luck! From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Dec 13 17:13:37 2006 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:13:37 -0500 Subject: Q22 BUS parity check? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45808921.4080400@nktelco.net> 9000 VAX wrote: > I read the Q22 specification (search "Q22 specification" on this page: > http://www.chd.dyndns.org/qbus_ide/ ) but the parity check function is > still > not clear to me. Definitely not an expert (and since none have volunteered), I think that the parity check of the Qbus is an indication of a parity error rather than part of a parity check function. The DEC Bus Handbook with a section on the LSI-11 bus says that BDAL17 is parity check enable and BDAL16 is parity check error. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/handbooks/PDP11_BusHandbook1979.pdf It says that on DATI cycles the bits are controlled by the peripheral. I make the assumption that asserting both during the data transfer phase will indicate a parity error that was detected in the peripheral and asserting only BDAL17 would indicate there was no error (but that parity was checked). It further says that during DATO cycles asserting BDAL16 will write a parity error to memory and BDAL17 is not used on writes. I presume this would be for testing of some kind. -chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 13 17:18:57 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:18:57 -0600 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay References: <45807C35.3040307@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: <013c01c71f0d$11c35b80$6500a8c0@BILLING> J Blaser wrote.... >I don't know anything about HP minis, so I don't know what to look for, but >for those on the list that have HPs and might be interested... > > The main unit: item # 320060663740 > The FP unit: item # 320060663048 > > No bids yet. And hopefully there won't be... unless you want parts - cause it's got issues. I noticed this system on ebay a night or two ago. I was going to post a warning here to people about it, but just didn't get a roundtuit. 1) The power supply for the cpu has been pulled (ie. is not present). That doesn't bode well ;) 2) The DCPC card (that's DMA to you and me) appears to be missing and the cable is dangling. This was standard on the 2117 (1000F aka 21MX/F) I think. 3) There is NO memory, nor a memory controller in the box, they appear to have been snagged. 4) Either the FEM board has been pulled, or they just used the wrong cable to connect the FAB to the cpu board. Given that slot 10 is empty and thus creates a break in the interrupt chain, I'm guessing the former. That means you're likely missing microcode. Could just be vendor microcode... or your base instruction set ;) 5) There appears to be something homebrew on the TBG board in slot 11. At least it's nothing I've ever seen. Given the RPL markings on the front this tends to make me think of process control. Maybe the cable was to allow some other device to generate the time based interrupts. 6) Third party board in slot 12. Who knows. 7) 13037 disk interface in slot 13, that matches the front panel markings as likely boot device. 8) Note the 8 channel mux card is not compatible with TSB. Note also the non-standard edge card connection. PSI board? 9) 7970 tape controller set, handy to have. 10) Two microcircuit boards. I happen to REALLY like these. If anyone buys this sytem, I'd be willing to pay for one or two of these cards :) 11) Missing board in slot 22... there goes your interrupts. Who knows, maybe this system ran something that was only polled. 12) Don't recognize the board in slot 23. On the plus side, it IS an F series... the FP unit is auctioned separately and they are calling it a power supply. Nope, it's a floating point unit. There IS no power supply - and there sure is supposed to be ;) I am not familiar enough with the F series to know if that FP unit includes all the necessary boards and/or connectors. Random thoughts.... Jay From fryers at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 17:20:15 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:20:15 +0000 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: <1165944946.6046.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200612100517.AAA24722@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1165944946.6046.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Hey All, Just catching up on some back email. Just had a quick look see at my CD collection as I remember a friend copying a couple of Ultrix CDs for me. I have; * Ultrix 4.5 MIPS Docs 1 and 2 of 2 * Ultrix 4.5 / RISC Software Product Library, Disk 1 * Ultrix 4.5 / RISC Software Product Library, Disk 2. If these are of interest, I'll copy the contents and put them somewhere webish. I thought I had Ultrix there as well as I was going to run it on my DECstation 5000/240. Never mind, I suppose I will have to settle with VMS! Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 17:23:48 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:23:48 -0700 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:16:10 -0600. <00cd01c71f04$4efafbb0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: In article <00cd01c71f04$4efafbb0$6500a8c0 at BILLING>, "Jay West" writes: > Richard wrote.... > > He doesn't seem to have much of anything in the minicomputer realm. > > Almost everything seems to be microcomputers. Although he does have > > some weird stuff I haven't heard of before I read "Collectible > > Microcomputers". > > And I'm minicomputer only? For some reason I thought your primary fetish was HP2000/PDP-11 :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Dec 13 17:29:16 2006 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 15:29:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: from "Simon Fryer" at Dec 13, 2006 11:20:15 PM Message-ID: <200612132329.kBDNTH25025724@onyx.spiritone.com> > Just had a quick look see at my CD collection as I remember a friend > copying a couple of Ultrix CDs for me. I have; > * Ultrix 4.5 MIPS Docs 1 and 2 of 2 > * Ultrix 4.5 / RISC Software Product Library, Disk 1 > * Ultrix 4.5 / RISC Software Product Library, Disk 2. > > If these are of interest, I'll copy the contents and put them somewhere webish. > > I thought I had Ultrix there as well as I was going to run it on my > DECstation 5000/240. Never mind, I suppose I will have to settle with > VMS! FYI, VMS won't run on a MIPS box, however, NetBSD will. Zane From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Dec 13 17:33:04 2006 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:33:04 -0600 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested References: Message-ID: <015801c71f0f$0bad0f50$6500a8c0@BILLING> You wrote.... > Thanks for the server, Jay :) If I had a datacentre I'd do the same thing; > in fact if you could tell me that classiccmp is hosted on an HP DL360 (or > something similar) I could probably pony up some spares..... Custom built 1U rackmount server actually (classiccmp, not the spamassassin server). I am not ready to tackle this within the next 30 or 60 days, but before too long it is going to be time to upgrade the disc drives on the classiccmp server. First, the hardware raid controller has reported a few bumps here and there writing to both drives. When that starts happening more and more frequently it's generally time to replace them before you are running on just one drive. But that's not the main reason. The main reason is that the drives will be full in the near future. Bitsavers has grown a lot, but that certainly isn't the only one (and I don't mean to say it's the biggest 'offender' either). I've put more and more classic computer related sites on it for people and all of them have grown over time. In addition, the web developer is back at work on the classiccmp development website, so in the future the classiccmp website itself will need more storage. Right now the classiccmp server has two 160gb PATA drives, mirrored with a 3ware/Escalade raid-1 card. Since I really despise doing a major reload from scratch frequently on the classiccmp server, I'd just as soon get as large of drives as possible without it being stupidly expensive. I was thinking of getting two PATA drives that are perhaps around the 400gb area. That would give all the classiccmp sites (and bitsavers) plenty of room to grow as we'd be going from 160gb usable to 400gb usable. I have to stick with PATA, or we'd need a different raid controller that fits the small single PCI slot, or a different mainboard, and then a cascade of upgrades become necessary... so ... PATA :) At the same time the drives are replaced I will see about replacing fans & such too... have to watch out for 1U cases... Jay From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Dec 13 17:32:39 2006 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 17:32:39 -0600 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45808D97.3070906@yahoo.co.uk> Adrian Graham wrote: >> There are no excuses .. http://www.geocities.com/mwinterhoff/galblast.htm > > Suddenly, I might be able to fix my Commodore 65! I thought that was up the spout because you didn't *have* the necessary firmware / programmed logic for it, not because you didn't have the necessary kit to program it... From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Dec 13 17:45:28 2006 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:45:28 +0000 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <00a901c71f00$e6fba120$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <00a901c71f00$e6fba120$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <45809098.9060401@philpem.me.uk> Jay West wrote: > What concerns me is that 99% of the new spam making it through is > vaguely sensible english phrases (apparently automatically pulled from > online books, or from usenet post archives, etc.). If there was also an > advertisement text, Spamassassin could catch that. However, the text is > all just english phrases (I've noted them to be targeted phrases, like > having to do with computers, sometimes old ones) BUT... the > advertisement is a graphic attachment. Since SpamAssassin can't do OCR > on the small gif or jpg attachment that says "buy viagra here"... I am > not sure what to do about this. It comes from all over, not just a few > servers, etc. I've been trying to deal with that crap for months. It's sent out by the Warezov and Sdbot viruses, which explains why it's coming from all over the place. I wrote a spam filter to deal with it - HAMster - but every few days the spam signatures change and I have to play catchup. So far the only constant I've found is that the messages all have subject lines of the form: Subject: something Subject: something Subject: something Subject: something Like I said - as soon as I add a new "ScoreRegexpSubjectField X Y" (add X to the score if regexp Y matches, replacing fields like $FIRSTNAME$ in the regexp with values from the headers) rule, the spam changes. My inbox is being stuffed full by this crap, and nothing seems to be able to stop it. I've counted nearly 1400MB of it in the past month, over six email accounts! So far the only way I've found to deal with it is to spend a few hours analysing each message, then find something unique about it that will allow me to create a filter to block it. Then the spam changes again and it's "go directly to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect ?200" once more... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 13 18:01:54 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 00:01:54 +0000 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 13/12/06 23:20, "Simon Fryer" wrote: > Hey All, > > Just catching up on some back email. > > Just had a quick look see at my CD collection as I remember a friend > copying a couple of Ultrix CDs for me. I have; > * Ultrix 4.5 MIPS Docs 1 and 2 of 2 > * Ultrix 4.5 / RISC Software Product Library, Disk 1 > * Ultrix 4.5 / RISC Software Product Library, Disk 2. That'll be some Ultrix CD's then.... > I thought I had Ultrix there as well as I was going to run it on my > DECstation 5000/240. Never mind, I suppose I will have to settle with > VMS! See above :) Obviously you can't run VMS on non VAX/Alpha hardware..... But you know that! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 13 18:03:53 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 00:03:53 +0000 Subject: What would it take... In-Reply-To: <45808D97.3070906@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 13/12/06 23:32, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > Adrian Graham wrote: >>> There are no excuses .. http://www.geocities.com/mwinterhoff/galblast.htm >> >> Suddenly, I might be able to fix my Commodore 65! > > I thought that was up the spout because you didn't *have* the necessary > firmware / programmed logic for it, not because you didn't have the necessary > kit to program it... Nope, Riccardo Rubini has all the necessary gubbins, I just didn't have a GAL programmer to roll my own. This is of course assuming it's because of that chip....... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Dec 13 18:06:46 2006 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:06:46 -0500 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200612131906.46847.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 13 December 2006 19:01, Adrian Graham wrote: > See above :) Obviously you can't run VMS on non VAX/Alpha > hardware..... You mean VAX/Alpha/Itanium2 ;) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 18:09:32 2006 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:09:32 -0500 Subject: Q22 BUS parity check? In-Reply-To: <45808921.4080400@nktelco.net> References: <45808921.4080400@nktelco.net> Message-ID: Tony and Chunk, Thank you, This kind of parity check is new to me because my mind was fixed to the "xor" type of parity check. What I did was that I inserted DAL17, and inserted DAL16 with "not (DAL15 xor DAL14 xor... xor DAL0)" when my controller was doing busmaster writes to the main memory. Nobody complained. When the CPU reads the SA/IP register, or requests the interrupt vector, If I insert DAL17, and insert DAL16 with the signal mentioned above, vax3900 reports a machine check. This conforms what you two said. It seems I need to just forget the parity check thing. vax, 9000 From ken at seefried.com Wed Dec 13 18:10:31 2006 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:10:31 -0500 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <200612132330.kBDNUIMR037756@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612132330.kBDNUIMR037756@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20061214001031.9443.qmail@seefried.com> From: "Jay West" > > What concerns me is that 99% of the new spam making it through is vaguely > sensible english phrases (apparently automatically pulled from online books, > or from usenet post archives, etc.). > Yup...you're seeing what I suppose can be described as an technological escalation in the spam war. The spammers have evolved, as we will have to wait for the good guys to adapt. I'm more of a dspam guy personally, but it's the same issue with Spamassassin. That, and I've been working through the issues with commercial spam removal vendors serving my Very Large Telco client. Bottom line is that the spammers have found a weak point in the current state-of-the-art spam detection technology and are beating on it for all it's worth. They're not st00pid, alas. Perhaps more insidious is I've noticed an increasing amount of non-sense spam with no discernible (to me) purpose (no links or dead links, no message or hook) other than to poison Bayesian corpus (corpi?). This does not bode well. Ken From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Dec 13 18:12:37 2006 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 00:12:37 +0000 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <015801c71f0f$0bad0f50$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: On 13/12/06 23:33, "Jay West" wrote: > You wrote.... >> Thanks for the server, Jay :) If I had a datacentre I'd do the same thing; >> in fact if you could tell me that classiccmp is hosted on an HP DL360 (or >> something similar) I could probably pony up some spares..... > > Custom built 1U rackmount server actually (classiccmp, not the spamassassin > server). > > I am not ready to tackle this within the next 30 or 60 days, but before too > long it is going to be time to upgrade the disc drives on the classiccmp > server. First, the hardware raid controller has reported a few bumps here Time to do some digging. Prompt me off-list please Jay. I don't want to stamp on your toes WRT custom built stuff unless you're happy for me to do so. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 13 18:30:52 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:30:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <45809098.9060401@philpem.me.uk> from Philip Pemberton at "Dec 13, 6 11:45:28 pm" Message-ID: <200612140030.kBE0Uql6023526@floodgap.com> > I wrote a spam filter to deal with it - HAMster - but every few days the spam That's kind of what I've been doing with procmail. Lately I have said screw it and, in addition to DNSBLs, added sendmail rules to drop connections from hosts with no reverse PTR or a forged reverse PTR, as well as greet_pause and some other tricks. I think Bayesian filtering is going to go the way of all other filtration because, as someone else already pointed out, spammers are including extracts of "normal" though unrelated text to defeat such analyses. I think the future will unfortunately be IP and network-based blocklists, and while the cure can be worse than the disease (increased possibility of false positives), the spamming community has proven that while they lack in ethics, they do not lack in innovation. The only cure for that is out-and-out ostracism of the networks that tolerate such behaviour. I have also gotten quite frustrated with various list echoes (not this one) that expose real E-mail addresses to the web. Since they have said they won't fix it, I'll name the worst offender I've dealt with, and that's the NetBSD lists. For that reason I have kept my postings to it to a minimum. Their mail admin basically said, "well, we thought it over briefly but we really don't care," and while I am a regular NetBSD user, that kind of attitude probably explains why the project is second-fiddle to the other BSDs, let alone Linux. Anyway, rant off, sorry. -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I don't think so," said Descartes, and he vanished. ----------------------- From fryers at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 18:36:57 2006 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 00:36:57 +0000 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: <200612132329.kBDNTH25025724@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200612132329.kBDNTH25025724@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: Heya, On 13/12/06, Zane H. Healy wrote: [...] > > I thought I had Ultrix there as well as I was going to run it on my > > DECstation 5000/240. Never mind, I suppose I will have to settle with > > VMS! > > FYI, VMS won't run on a MIPS box, however, NetBSD will. Didn't know that. Thank you - I have just learnt another thing today. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Wed Dec 13 19:18:44 2006 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:18:44 -0500 Subject: The power supply of my vax 3900 is making a weak squeaking sound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20061214011844.B749DBA4227@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "9000 VAX" wrote: > > I think in the box, that one of the two power supplies does the > > odd-numbered slots, and the other does the even numbered slots. > > Loads must be distributed to cover both supplies and both supplies > > need their minimum load met. > > > I did not know this. I thought they worked for each half of the QBUS. I have > a M9060 that I put in the very last slot to make the left side power supply > happy. Maybe it happens to be an even numbered slot. The "how to split up power supplies on a single backplane" problem has many solutions! But I'm pretty sure that in your backplane it is odd/even (with maybe some weird exception for the first slot or two). And I recall the drive power connectors being split between the two supplies too (but not in the same way as a BA123...) Tim. From dholland at woh.rr.com Wed Dec 13 19:24:19 2006 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:24:19 -0500 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: <20061214001031.9443.qmail@seefried.com> References: <200612132330.kBDNUIMR037756@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20061214001031.9443.qmail@seefried.com> Message-ID: <1166059459.23318.14.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Wed, 2006-12-13 at 19:10 -0500, Ken Seefried wrote: > Perhaps more insidious is I've noticed an increasing amount of non-sense > spam with no discernible (to me) purpose (no links or dead links, no message > or hook) other than to poison Bayesian corpus (corpi?). This does not bode > well. Nope, where I work ended up going w/ a commercial solution. I'll mention what I sent to Jay a few ago. We seem to be reasonably happy w/ a product called IronPort. (www.ironport.com) I'm not privy to the costs of the devices though. David > Ken From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 19:24:54 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:24:54 -0500 Subject: Looking for old VMS and Ultrix releases In-Reply-To: References: <200612100517.AAA24722@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1165944946.6046.5.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4580A7E6.1080700@gmail.com> Simon Fryer wrote: > Hey All, > > Just catching up on some back email. > > Just had a quick look see at my CD collection as I remember a friend > copying a couple of Ultrix CDs for me. I have; > * Ultrix 4.5 MIPS Docs 1 and 2 of 2 > * Ultrix 4.5 / RISC Software Product Library, Disk 1 > * Ultrix 4.5 / RISC Software Product Library, Disk 2. I wouldn't mind myself. > If these are of interest, I'll copy the contents and put them somewhere > webish. > > I thought I had Ultrix there as well as I was going to run it on my > DECstation 5000/240. Never mind, I suppose I will have to settle with > VMS! VMS doesn't run on these. Your choices are Ultrix and NetBSD. Peace... Sridhar From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Dec 13 19:47:59 2006 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:47:59 -0500 Subject: classiccmp list (sort of) help requested In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:36:36 CST." <00f001c71f07$26793be0$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200612140147.kBE1lxfD022081@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: > >Maybe spamassassin will find a way to progress in the tit-for-tat war with >spammers. not sure. I'll tell you what you probably already know. Spam has been morphing lately on a couple of fronts. People who don't run their own SMTP servers have probably only noticed one of these fronts - the move to pictures embedded in mime encoded email. No Bayes classifier can deal with that (that I know of). Another front is the rise of spambots. I've seen a huge increase in "SMTP hangups", where a connection occurs and then is dropped. It's spambots fishing. Also, tons of email sent to non-existent users at valid domains. These cause double bouncing and clog up email servers. I've seen hundreds of them running all over (what appear to be) cable modem nets in the UK. And other places as well (no slight ment to those across the pond - just one of many examples). There must a lot of infected pc's running windows out there. I've taken to rejecting email at the SMTP level by checking the recipient - using a qmail variant called magic-smtpd. It's eliminated the double-bounces caused by email sent from non-existent users to non-existent users. But, the checking requires you to keep a list of valid email recipients. This is probably not practical for many domains but it might work for a list/domain where you know the list of valid recipients up front. Just a thought. The sad thing is that email is quickly becoming less effective than fax and the phone. A high percentage of email is filtered or lost. very frustrating. -brad From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Dec 13 20:03:50 2006 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:03:50 -0500 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've purchased from him. I just wait until the item reaches the price I want to pay. Good shipper. No problems On Dec 13, 2006, at 12:39 PM, Richard wrote: > Has anyone purchased from this guy? > > He has a lot of weird stuff, but the pricing seems like he took the > high number form suggested range in "Collectible Microcomputers" and > multiplied it by 10 or 20. > > You'll also note that every item is marked "rare" even things like > Atari 800! > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! Robert Borsuk irisworld at mac.com -- (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Dec 13 20:19:42 2006 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:19:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Al Shugart dies at age 76 Message-ID: <200612140219.kBE2JhtG017474@floodgap.com> I don't remember seeing this noted here, so ... http://news.com.com/Al+Shugart%2C+hard-drive+pioneer%2C+dies+at+76/2100-1015_3-6143474.html?tag=st_lh -- --------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- An apple every eight hours will keep three doctors away. ------------------- From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 20:34:00 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:34:00 -0700 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller Message-ID: Does anyone have experience with one of these puppies? There's one for dirt cheap on ebay right now, item 170059136469. Its Big. Its Blue. Its Heavy. Its IBM! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 20:41:22 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:41:22 -0700 Subject: ebay seller computermkt In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:03:50 -0500. Message-ID: In article , Robert Borsuk writes: > I've purchased from him. I just wait until the item reaches the > price I want to pay. This implies that he price reduces when he re-lists? Most of the high prices I've seen are from people who re-list with the same high price over and over. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Dec 13 20:56:05 2006 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:56:05 -0800 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4580BD45.9030807@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: >Does anyone have experience with one of these puppies? There's one >for dirt cheap on ebay right now, item 170059136469. > >Its Big. Its Blue. Its Heavy. > >Its IBM! > > It looks like an excellent specimen. It's on the wrong coast, and too large for my collection. the big problem with IBM communications gear like this is that it only runs with IBM licensed software. The public domain versions of MVS an VM won't support it, and Linux on the mainframe does not either. Also it probably is attached via channels, as evidenced by the cable block on the lower picture, which makes it a bit of a white elephant in todays data centers, which have moved to ESCON for the most part. At one time, I think the 3705, a predecessor was a modified 370 processor with a very nice front panel. This one lacks that to make it pretty, and probably makes it a bit safer from scrappers who hack out such things and sell them alone. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Wed Dec 13 21:21:57 2006 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:21:57 -0700 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:56:05 -0800. <4580BD45.9030807@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: In article <4580BD45.9030807 at msm.umr.edu>, jim stephens writes: > the big problem with IBM communications gear like this is that it only > runs with IBM licensed > software. The public domain versions of MVS an VM won't support it, and > Linux on the > mainframe does not either. ... at least that's the situation as it stands today. Things can always change sociologically and legally to make a different story tomorrow. But if noone saves the hardware today, how can a different legal story tomorrow make a difference? On the rescue list, it was just stated that Cray is willing to extend hobbyist licenses these days. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 21:26:38 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:26:38 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4580C46E.90007@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > Does anyone have experience with one of these puppies? There's one > for dirt cheap on ebay right now, item 170059136469. > > Its Big. Its Blue. Its Heavy. > > Its IBM! What are you going to hook it to? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 21:29:15 2006 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:29:15 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: <4580BD45.9030807@msm.umr.edu> References: <4580BD45.9030807@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <4580C50B.7040508@gmail.com> jim stephens wrote: > Richard wrote: > >> Does anyone have experience with one of these puppies? There's one >> for dirt cheap on ebay right now, item 170059136469. >> >> Its Big. Its Blue. Its Heavy. >> >> Its IBM! >> >> > It looks like an excellent specimen. It's on the wrong coast, and too > large for my collection. > > the big problem with IBM communications gear like this is that it only > runs with IBM licensed > software. The public domain versions of MVS an VM won't support it, and > Linux on the > mainframe does not either. I believe there's limited support for the 3725 in z/Linux. Peace... Sridhar From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 21:45:35 2006 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:45:35 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Communications Controller In-Reply-To: <4580BD45.9030807@msm.umr.edu> References: <4580BD45.9030807@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: > At one time, I think the 3705, a predecessor was a modified 370 > processor with a very > nice front panel. This one lacks that to make it pretty, and probably > makes it a bit safer > from scrappers who hack out such things and sell them alone. The 3705 uses that modular processor family (whose name escapes me right now), rather than something from the 360 stable. The 3725 may as well - it found places in all sorts of non-processor IBM gear. I am looking for a 3705 panel, as my example has been stripped. 3725s are falling off the Earth quickly - this may be one of the last to be seen for a while, and it would be nice if someone took it. 3745s are also in steep decline. -- Will From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed Dec 13 23:10:52 2006 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 06:10:52 +0100 Subject: VR241 and X.Org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1166073052.11266.32.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-12-13 at 22:41 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > I'm playing around with a VR241 - the colour monitor bit of the VT241 - > > and trying to make it work as a standard video monitor. It has two pairs > It _is_ a standard video monitor (it's actually a Hitachi chassis inside...) > > of RGB+sync inputs, and an "INT/EXT" (presumably sync) toggle switch. > Yes, that switch selects between separate composite sync on the fourth > BNC socket and sync-on-green. Aha - SOG. Thank you. > > I have been unable to find any specifications for this monitor online. I > > don't think the Monitor Database one is correct - if it is, I'm doing > > something wrong. > It's a normal TV rate (that is, 15.7kHz horizontal, 60Hz vertical) RGB > analogue monitor. Aha. > > Is it possible to hook this thing up to a PC? Is there anything I need > > to bear in mind when configuring X? > It will not sunc to nromal VGA frequencies. Period. I cna't think of a PC > video adapter that will easily drive it, either. I wasn't attempting to get it to - some PC VAs can, I believe, output composite sync or Sync on Green. The options are certainly there in the X configuration file. And I have previously gotten my card to output PAL and NTSC timings. Cheers, -Tore :) From oldcpu at rogerwilco.org Wed Dec 13 23:47:45 2006 From: oldcpu at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:47:45 -0700 Subject: HP HP-2117F on ebay In-Reply-To: <200612132330.kBDNUIML037756@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200612132330.kBDNUIML037756@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4580E581.20505@rogerwilco.org> Jay West wrote: > J Blaser wrote.... > >I don't know anything about HP minis, so I don't know what to look for, but > >for those on the list that have HPs and might be interested... > > > > The main unit: item # 320060663