From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Sep 1 00:01:03 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050901050103.3500.qmail@web81302.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jos Dreesen wrote: > For those who know : is the software adaptable > enough to reroute IO to > the console I believe there was an APL implementation that used a special typeball on the console typewriter, so presumably the console could be used as the primary input device. --Bill From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 1 00:55:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Jos Dreesen wrote: > For those on the right ( i.e. not left...) side of the Atlantic : > a chap in Austria is desparate in getting rid of a nice looking IBM1130. What's the item #? I've searched but it doesn't turn up. > I would still be tempted if it was not a 6 hour drive one way across > the Alps. For an IBM 1130 I'd drive that without a second thought. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 01:04:34 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 01:04:34 -0500 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/1/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > For an IBM 1130 I'd drive that without a second thought. They had an 1130 in the Engineering building when I was an undergrad, but they scrapped it quietly when I wasn't looking. :-( Nice machine. I'd do a 6-hour drive for one, too... even at $5/gal. -ethan From cctech at retro.co.za Thu Sep 1 02:37:48 2005 From: cctech at retro.co.za (Wouter) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 09:37:48 +0200 Subject: Apple Super Serial ][ pinout In-Reply-To: <200508311702.j7VH2I0N089656@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200508311702.j7VH2I0N089656@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20050901092418.07158e60@alpha.ccii.co.za> Hi all I didn't see anyone answer Kelly's question, and since I remembered to bring my Super Serial Card manual in today... OK, this is the "Apple ][ Super Serial Card" which I hope is the same as an "Apple Super Serial ][" card... The "Cable Socket" is a 10 pin right angle looks like 0.1" pitch connector. The schematic seems to indicate Pin Name Goes to 1 FRMGND R7 100R to GND 2 TxD Pin 6 on jumper block 3 RxD Pin 12 on jumper block 4 RTS Pin 4 on jumper block 5 CTS Pin 2 on jumper block 6 DSR Pin 10 on jumper block 7 SCTS Pin 8 on switch 2 8 SGLGND GND 9 DTR Pin 8 on jumper block 10 DCD Pins 14 and 16 on jumper block HTH W From GOOI at oce.nl Thu Sep 1 04:36:55 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 11:36:55 +0200 Subject: searching for replacement for 1793 FDC Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1E5E@gd-mail03.oce.nl> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey > Sent: dinsdag 30 augustus 2005 19:47 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: searching for replacement for 1793 FDC > > > >From: "Gooijen, Henk" > > > >> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > >> > >> >Hi all, > >> >I am looking into the possibility to add a floppy disk interface > >> >to the 6809 Core Board. 20 years ago, so this is OT :-) , I built > >> >a floppy disk interface for my 6800 system using the 1793. > >> >I have ordered some 1793 from BG Micro, but checking the data > >> >sheet of the 1793, I noticed taht the FDC requires +12 on pin #40. > >> >I know the MB8877 is pin-compatible with the 1793, but does *not* > >> >need the +12V. > >> >I failed to locate a seller for the 8877, but I do not know "all" > >> >major part sellers in the US. JameCo, BG Micro and DigiKey do not > >> >have this part ... somebody knows a good stock of the 8877 ? > >> >I can use the 1793, +12V is "ugly", but the voltage is present as > >> >the +12V is needed for the floppy drive itself! > >> > > >> > thanks, > >> >- Henk, PA8PDP. > >> > > >> > > >> Has it really be the 1793? Or might not be a 2797 design (2797 is > >> also available from BG micro) from www.swtpc.com/mholley > >> (New design for SS30 FDC) is more appropriate for "new > developments", > >> given that it doesn't need that really ugly external data > separator > >> logic which always prevented me from building FDC boards (a usable > >> separator chip is more difficult to find than the FDC chip, and the > >> alternatives with a TTL-monoflop grave is not even more > attractive). > >> > >> Actually, what is your real problem? You already have 12V for the > >> floppy drive, so what prevents you from feeding it into pin #40 of > >> the 1793? +12V on an otherwise +5V board is not more ugly than a > >> +25V source on an eprommer board, or +12/-5V for 2708/4116 memory > >> boards. > >> > >> Holger > > > >Thanks for the reply Holger. > >Your remark about the +12 for the FDC // +25 for an EPROM programmer > >is correct. I know of the existence of the 2797, but have > totally none > >experience with it what-so-ever. The link that you gave is nice, but > >I am not sure I can *copy* the design ... Further, I have > several 1793 > >here, so that is cheap for me. I would need to buy the 2797 and ship > >it to The Netherlands (sources here are not as good as in the US). > >The data separator I use with the 1793 is more stable, and built with > >a VCO (LS629, LS393 and LS153). > >I will look into the 2797 a bit more, but I guess I'll go > with the 1793. > >I saw in the diagram of the 2797 that it has also 2 trimpots for the > >adjustment ... Not sure yet ... > > > > thanks, > >- Henk, PA8PDP. > > > > > > Hi > The 2791/93 are a more flexable choice than the 2795/97. > >From my understanding of the spec sheet, the 2791/93 can > do both 5.25 and 8 inch without changing external parts. > The 2795/97 requires different clock frequencies to do > this. > You give up the side select but as was mentioned before, > I suspect that one could double up the direction bit > to also do side select or just have a port to do that. > Dwight Thanks for pointing that out Dwight! I overlooked that! Only the 2791/93 has an *internal* clock divider circuit needed when you control either 5.25" or 8" drives. For the 2795/97 this means additional external circuitry. I have in my design an octal latch to control some things, so density can be controlled with one bit from the latch. All in all, I will make my design with the (available) 1793. I only have *one* trimpot adjustment, the 279x has *two*. I will take the +12 from the power supply. The 7660 is a good suggestion, but increases the chip count by one, unnecessary. Ok, one wire added instead :-) BTW, my design should work with 8", 5.25", and 3" proven years ago, so I expect that 3.5" will work too ... time to heat up the soldering iron! thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP. From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Thu Sep 1 04:37:40 2005 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 11:37:40 +0200 Subject: searching for replacement for 1793 FDC In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1E53@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1E53@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <4316CBE4.2010309@ais.fraunhofer.de> Gooijen, Henk wrote: >>Gooijen, Henk wrote: >> >> >> >>>Hi all, >>>I am looking into the possibility to add a floppy disk interface >>>to the 6809 Core Board. 20 years ago, so this is OT :-) , I built >>>a floppy disk interface for my 6800 system using the 1793. >>>I have ordered some 1793 from BG Micro, but checking the data >>>sheet of the 1793, I noticed taht the FDC requires +12 on pin #40. >>>I know the MB8877 is pin-compatible with the 1793, but does *not* >>>need the +12V. >>>I failed to locate a seller for the 8877, but I do not know "all" >>>major part sellers in the US. JameCo, BG Micro and DigiKey do not >>>have this part ... somebody knows a good stock of the 8877 ? >>>I can use the 1793, +12V is "ugly", but the voltage is present as >>>the +12V is needed for the floppy drive itself! >>> >>> thanks, >>>- Henk, PA8PDP. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Has it really be the 1793? Or might not be a 2797 design (2797 is >>also available from BG micro) from www.swtpc.com/mholley >>(New design for SS30 FDC) is more appropriate for "new developments", >>given that it doesn't need that really ugly external data separator >>logic which always prevented me from building FDC boards (a usable >>separator chip is more difficult to find than the FDC chip, and the >>alternatives with a TTL-monoflop grave is not even more attractive). >> >>Actually, what is your real problem? You already have 12V for the >>floppy drive, so what prevents you from feeding it into pin #40 of >>the 1793? +12V on an otherwise +5V board is not more ugly than a >>+25V source on an eprommer board, or +12/-5V for 2708/4116 memory >>boards. >> >>Holger >> >> > >Thanks for the reply Holger. >Your remark about the +12 for the FDC // +25 for an EPROM programmer >is correct. I know of the existence of the 2797, but have totally none >experience with it what-so-ever. The link that you gave is nice, but >I am not sure I can *copy* the design ... Further, I have several 1793 > > Hi Henk, What appears to make the design on that page a bit difficult is the presence of the CPLD, but this is not really required, unless you need full SS30 compatibility, and at the price of losing some flexibility in setting modes; the 2797 datasheet shows a really simple application circuit. >here, so that is cheap for me. I would need to buy the 2797 and ship >it to The Netherlands (sources here are not as good as in the US). > > The 2797 is available from www.bgmicro.com, and they have no problems to sell to Europe; I have ordered several times from them already, and I guess if it works for Germany, it will also work for the Netherlands; surely it is not useful for a single 2793, but they might have more attractive gadgets for the electronics enthusiast to reach a minimum order limit (had never problems WRT). >The data separator I use with the 1793 is more stable, and built with >a VCO (LS629, LS393 and LS153). >I will look into the 2797 a bit more, but I guess I'll go with the 1793. >I saw in the diagram of the 2797 that it has also 2 trimpots for the >adjustment ... Not sure yet ... > > They are for precompensation, and the datasheet explains how to set them - one better has an oscilloscope for it, but I guess this won't be better for a 1793 either. Regards Holger From GOOI at oce.nl Thu Sep 1 04:55:19 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 11:55:19 +0200 Subject: searching for replacement for 1793 FDC Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1E5F@gd-mail03.oce.nl> > >>Gooijen, Henk wrote: > >> > >>>Hi all, > >>>I am looking into the possibility to add a floppy disk interface > >>>to the 6809 Core Board. 20 years ago, so this is OT :-) , I built > >>>a floppy disk interface for my 6800 system using the 1793. > >>>I have ordered some 1793 from BG Micro, but checking the data > >>>sheet of the 1793, I noticed taht the FDC requires +12 on pin #40. > >>>I know the MB8877 is pin-compatible with the 1793, but does *not* > >>>need the +12V. > >>>I failed to locate a seller for the 8877, but I do not know "all" > >>>major part sellers in the US. JameCo, BG Micro and DigiKey do not > >>>have this part ... somebody knows a good stock of the 8877 ? > >>>I can use the 1793, +12V is "ugly", but the voltage is present as > >>>the +12V is needed for the floppy drive itself! > >>> > >>> thanks, > >>>- Henk, PA8PDP. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>Has it really be the 1793? Or might not be a 2797 design (2797 is > >>also available from BG micro) from www.swtpc.com/mholley > >>(New design for SS30 FDC) is more appropriate for "new > developments", > >>given that it doesn't need that really ugly external data separator > >>logic which always prevented me from building FDC boards (a usable > >>separator chip is more difficult to find than the FDC chip, and the > >>alternatives with a TTL-monoflop grave is not even more attractive). > >> > >>Actually, what is your real problem? You already have 12V for the > >>floppy drive, so what prevents you from feeding it into pin #40 of > >>the 1793? +12V on an otherwise +5V board is not more ugly than a > >>+25V source on an eprommer board, or +12/-5V for 2708/4116 memory > >>boards. > >> > >>Holger > >> > >> > > > >Thanks for the reply Holger. > >Your remark about the +12 for the FDC // +25 for an EPROM programmer > >is correct. I know of the existence of the 2797, but have totally > >none experience with it what-so-ever. The link that you gave is nice > >but I am not sure I can *copy* the design ... Further, I have > >several 1793 > > > > > Hi Henk, > > What appears to make the design on that page a bit difficult is the > presence of the CPLD, but this is not really required, unless you > need full SS30 compatibility, and at the price of losing some > flexibility in setting modes; the 2797 datasheet shows a really simple > application circuit. > > >here, so that is cheap for me. I would need to buy the 2797 and ship > >it to The Netherlands (sources here are not as good as in the US). > > > > > The 2797 is available from www.bgmicro.com, and they have no problems > to sell to Europe; I have ordered several times from them already, and > I guess if it works for Germany, it will also work for the Netherlands > surely it is not useful for a single 2793, but they might have more > attractive gadgets for the electronics enthusiast to reach a minimum > order limit (had never problems WRT). > > >The data separator I use with the 1793 is more stable, and built with > >a VCO (LS629, LS393 and LS153). I will look into the 2797 a bit more, > >but I guess I'll go with the 1793. I saw in the diagram of the 2797 > >that it has also 2 trimpots for the adjustment ... Not sure yet ... > > > > > They are for precompensation, and the datasheet explains how > to set them > - one better has an oscilloscope for it, but > I guess this won't be better for a 1793 either. > > Regards > Holger Yes, in my case you are better of with an 'scope too :-) But I will try to find a way to get the adjustment OK without a scope. Hmmm, that is -not- a promise ...! (I got three 1793's from BG Micro yesterday in the mail) greetz, - Henk. From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Sep 1 06:15:30 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 07:15:30 -0400 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:01:03 PDT." <20050901050103.3500.qmail@web81302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200509011115.j81BFUpu022872@mwave.heeltoe.com> William Maddox wrote: > >I believe there was an APL implementation that >used a special typeball on the console typewriter, >so presumably the console could be used as the >primary input device. This was true on the 1130. I remember using it. I also remember running into a *huge* listing of the source code - as I recall it was written to run on the 1800 as well as the 1130. -brad From jonathan.laventhol at imagination.com Thu Sep 1 10:33:24 2005 From: jonathan.laventhol at imagination.com (Jonathan Laventhol) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:33:24 +0100 Subject: DEC Tape Drive TU81 in Alabama (Ebay) Message-ID: <43171F44.30605@imagination.com> Hi -- Somebody's got to want a TU81 half-inch tape drive from DEC? Its in Alabama and currently no bids, start price $9.99. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mainframe-Tape-Backup-Digital-TA81-Unix-TU9QAA-DEC-NT1_W0QQitemZ5235755883QQcategoryZ3756QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem For me it's too far, too heavy and I've got no room, no half-inch tapes, and no PDP-11 to plug it into. Other than that, I'd have it in a minute. Regards, Jonathan. From allain at panix.com Thu Sep 1 11:15:19 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 12:15:19 -0400 Subject: DEC Tape Drive TU81 in Alabama (Ebay) References: <43171F44.30605@imagination.com> Message-ID: <00e801c5af10$59e75ec0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5235755883 It's a TA81 meaning I think that it will plug into any SDI device bus which is a pretty common (for DEC) interface. Interesting from the pictures that it has a diagnostic terminal port. Makes it more interesting to get if I see one up here again. The terminal power port may be VT-12 (Termiflex HHT) compatible, maybe not. exDEC Field services techs are welcomed to comment further. John A. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 1 11:38:23 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 09:38:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? Message-ID: <200509011638.JAA00834@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Brad Parker wrote: > >> Another punch card question. >> >> Of those who've read cards recently, was moisture a problem? i.e. did >> the cards ever swell due to moisture and then jam, or was this not a >> problem? just curious. > >Never had a problem with this. Most of the problems I have are cards that >have not been stored appropriately and have bent or otherwise deformed >over time. It's a bitch having to bend them back flat (a process of >bending with my hands, over my knee, and in some cases when they just >won't cooperate, whacking them repeatedly over the edge of a table). > Hi You should use a steam iron. Dwight From dmabry at mich.com Thu Sep 1 11:59:39 2005 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 12:59:39 -0400 Subject: Intel MDS Series II IOC question Message-ID: <4317337B.8010106@mich.com> I think there are some Intel MDS owners here, and even some who use them! ;) Maybe one of you will know this detail. I'm trying to troubleshoot a problem on one I just got, a Series II, model 225. There is a large PC board on the back panel of these beasts called an IOC (Input/Output Controller). It contains an 8080 cpu, some ram, some rom, and basically all the I/O for the machine on the back panel. It is commanded by the system's cpu (a different board plugged into the front multibus chassis) through a couple of I/O ports, if I remember correctly. The IOC board has a three-position switch on the back. One position is "line" and in that position it is connected to the system cpu and does its everyday work of controlling the I/O for the MDS. One position is "local" and in that position I think all it does is echo characters typed on the keyboard to the crt. The third position, "diagnostic" causes it to run some internal confidence test. In that position, if everything is healthy, there are a series of two beeps, a pause, then three beeps after reset. After that there are some choices on the crt that let you run a few different tests from the keyboard. The one I'm working on will beep twice, then pause, then only one beep. Nothing further happens. No characters on the crt (which does have a raster, so at least part of the crt-controller function of the IOC is working), no apparent response to keyboard typeins. My question is this...does anyone know what part of the diagnostic is failing when there are only three beeps instead of five? The documentation I have only says it should beep five times but doesn't say what each beep signifies. It would help narrow down my search for the problem if I know what part of the test is failing. I'd love a disassembly of the firmware of that board, but I've never seen it or any source for it. That would be very helpful. Anyone have such a thing? I don't remember ever seeing anything like that from Intel, but it was a long time ago and I may have just forgotten. I'll be diving into this problem this weekend, but if anyone can help with the above couple of questions that would be wonderful. Thanks in advance! Dave Mabry From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 1 12:00:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 10:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <200509011638.JAA00834@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >Never had a problem with this. Most of the problems I have are cards that > >have not been stored appropriately and have bent or otherwise deformed > >over time. It's a bitch having to bend them back flat (a process of > >bending with my hands, over my knee, and in some cases when they just > >won't cooperate, whacking them repeatedly over the edge of a table). > > You should use a steam iron. You mean on all 30,000 of them? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jhoger at pobox.com Thu Sep 1 12:25:14 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 10:25:14 -0700 Subject: XTs and large hard disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1125595514.8932.25.camel@aragorn> On Tue, 2005-08-30 at 14:47 -0500, Julian Wolfe wrote: > I actually have one of these adapters, but have yet to try it because I need > a CF card. Maybe when I get some extra cash I'll try it. > Browse here from time to time, or subscribe: http://www.freeafterrebate.info/index.php?topic=hardware Typically < 256Meg compact flash cards go for "free after rebate" all the time. I assume the adapter you have is ATA IDE to CF, not XT-IDE? -- John. From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Thu Sep 1 14:06:48 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 21:06:48 +0200 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8BA17084-1B1B-11DA-A2D1-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> > > On 9/1/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> For an IBM 1130 I'd drive that without a second thought. > But I don't have a warehouse....... > > I'd do a 6-hour drive for one, too... even at $5/gal. It's close to 6USD / gallon here..... Nevertheless : what is the exact size of the ibm1131 ? How easy is it to dismantle ? The ebay ID is 5233890019, a US chap has done a first bid. I wonder how he will arrange the " local pickup only" Jos From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 1 14:42:49 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 12:42:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Austria is a long way from Chile! (was: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050901123553.L60265@shell.lmi.net> > > I would still be tempted if it was not a 6 hour drive one way across > > the Alps. On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > For an IBM 1130 I'd drive that without a second thought. I think that Sellam would drive from California to Austria for an 1130. Besides seeing how he would drive across the pond, I'd like to watch him put an 1130 into his Honda. (I've carried four DTC-300s (stand mounted Hitype 1 daisy wheel terminals) with a Civic, but never an 1130.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 1 14:55:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 12:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: <8BA17084-1B1B-11DA-A2D1-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > I'd do a 6-hour drive for one, too... even at $5/gal. > > It's close to 6USD / gallon here..... Same here. (Well, maybe not yet, but probably by Monday ;) > The ebay ID is 5233890019, a US chap has done a first bid. > > I wonder how he will arrange the " local pickup only" Where there's a will, there's a way. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 1 14:56:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 12:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Austria is a long way from Chile! (was: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: <20050901123553.L60265@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > I think that Sellam would drive from California to Austria for an 1130. > Besides seeing how he would drive across the pond, > I'd like to watch him put an 1130 into his Honda. > (I've carried four DTC-300s (stand mounted Hitype 1 daisy wheel > terminals) with a Civic, but never an 1130.) Hint: the back doors come off without too much trouble ;) (Yes, I've done this before.) (Not an 1130, but something big that couldn't fit without removing the door.) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From george at rachors.com Thu Sep 1 15:09:36 2005 From: george at rachors.com (George L. Rachor Jr.) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intel MDS Series II IOC question In-Reply-To: <4317337B.8010106@mich.com> References: <4317337B.8010106@mich.com> Message-ID: <20050901130640.S99592@racsys.rachors.com> Greetings Dave, Possibly helpful hints from a friend not on this list: ------------ Subject: Re: Intel MDS Series II IOC question (fwd) Hi George, My first thought is SCANBE. My second thought is SCANBE. My third thought is... can you guess? Replacing the SCANBE sockets with AUGAT barrel type on the older IOC's has always solved my 5 beep test problems. Making sure all socketed components are properly seated in reliable sockets. The manuals, flow charts, etc... all say to replace the IOC if the 5 beeps test fails. The manual called: Customer Engineer Diagnostic System Test Operating Instructions For Series II Systems (121619-001) may break down the 5 beep test, but I do not have a copy. Tips for replacing the SCANBE sockets. 1. Pull the plastic housing of the SCANBE socket off the board. 2. Remove the mylar sheet from between the pins. 3. On the component side grab one of the pins with needle nose pliers while heating same pin on the solder side, pull to remove. Repeat for all pins. 4. Use solder wick to remove solder from holes and clean up. 5. Clean area with flux-off if needed. 6. Install AUGAT machine barrel socket. 7. Clean area with flux-off. Randy ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george at rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Dave Mabry wrote: > I think there are some Intel MDS owners here, and even some who use them! ;) > Maybe one of you will know this detail. > > I'm trying to troubleshoot a problem on one I just got, a Series II, model > 225. There is a large PC board on the back panel of these beasts called an > IOC (Input/Output Controller). It contains an 8080 cpu, some ram, some rom, > and basically all the I/O for the machine on the back panel. It is commanded > by the system's cpu (a different board plugged into the front multibus > chassis) through a couple of I/O ports, if I remember correctly. > > The IOC board has a three-position switch on the back. One position is > "line" and in that position it is connected to the system cpu and does its > everyday work of controlling the I/O for the MDS. One position is "local" > and in that position I think all it does is echo characters typed on the > keyboard to the crt. The third position, "diagnostic" causes it to run some > internal confidence test. In that position, if everything is healthy, there > are a series of two beeps, a pause, then three beeps after reset. After that > there are some choices on the crt that let you run a few different tests from > the keyboard. > > The one I'm working on will beep twice, then pause, then only one beep. > Nothing further happens. No characters on the crt (which does have a raster, > so at least part of the crt-controller function of the IOC is working), no > apparent response to keyboard typeins. > > My question is this...does anyone know what part of the diagnostic is failing > when there are only three beeps instead of five? The documentation I have > only says it should beep five times but doesn't say what each beep signifies. > It would help narrow down my search for the problem if I know what part of > the test is failing. > > I'd love a disassembly of the firmware of that board, but I've never seen it > or any source for it. That would be very helpful. Anyone have such a thing? > I don't remember ever seeing anything like that from Intel, but it was a long > time ago and I may have just forgotten. > > I'll be diving into this problem this weekend, but if anyone can help with > the above couple of questions that would be wonderful. > > Thanks in advance! > Dave Mabry > > > From GOOI at oce.nl Thu Sep 1 15:10:39 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 22:10:39 +0200 Subject: follow-up on the blinkenlight console project Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1E62@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hello all. I'd like to tell my update on the SIMH blinkenlight console project(s). A year ago (or so), Vince and I developed the 6809 Core and I/O Boards. To refresh your memory about this project: the 6809 Core Board runs an application that communicates with a modified PDP-11 version of SIMH. You connect the I/O Board to switches and LEDs that represent a PDP-11 console, in my project example an 11/40 console. This console is the part that you had to do yourself, you could/can take a real console, but as I said earlier, that's (perhaps) a waste of a good machine. For this project, see www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/startframe.html I have a new application that takes the first project one step further. The 6809 now simulates the PDP8 instruction set, and the I/O Board simulates a complete pdp8/e console. See this project results on : www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/pdp8/pdp8startpage.html Especially the second "project" is nice (IMHO). I can run SpaceWar in OS/8 on the 6809 ! During the workz I added an IDE hard disk interface to the I/O Board! The pdp8/e simulation boots DMS or OS/8 from the CompactFlash card. As the performance is not *that* good (...), I upgraded the Core Board to run twice as fast. You can do that upgrade too, if you have installed the 6809, 6850, and 6821 in sockets. Replace these 3 chips with their "B" version, and replace the 4 MHz clock with an 8 MHz version. That's all! The RAM chip(s) and the EPROM that was delivered in the kit are fast enough to support this upgrade. The initial load of the pdp8 software is not "user friendly". I am thinking about a Floppy Expansion Board (FEB) that connects to the Core Board through the PIA socket. The 68(B)21 is installed on the FEB. The FEB has all parts to connect 2 or 3 floppy disk drives, which can be 8", 5.25", 3.5" or 3". I will test the 3.5" version, but expect the other drives sizes to operate corretly too. The controller will be the 1793. I intend to write the floppy disk drivers in the monitor, so you can use the floppy disk also in the 6809 environment. From my hobby 20+ years ago I have a self-written DOS, not compatible with FAT-12. Sorry, the PC was just 1 or 2 years old when I wrote that DOS. However, "my DOS" has all the commands you'd expect. I can make the FEB just for myself, but if there is more interest on this follow-up project, I will document this work-in-progress better than I'd do just for myself ... An other thing I am thinking about, is a new design of the Core Board to get a better performance for the pdp8/e simulation. I am looking into the possibility what speed improvements this sim would get if I rewrote the 6809 pdp8/e code into 68000. The new Core Board will of course have an 68000 (or cost reducing) 68008 clocked at 10 MHz. Any comment is welcome, but I will ignore proposals for CPLD, Atmel, etc. enjoy the pdp8/e simulation webpage! - Henk, PA8PDP. what's in a callsign :-) From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Sep 1 16:37:14 2005 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:37:14 -0400 Subject: Archives & DECmate Message-ID: <4317748A.8010409@bellsouth.net> A few months ago there was a discussion on the list about the DECmate. I can't seem to locate it in the archives. Am I doing something wrong, or are the archives not up-to-date? The subject line was something like "Stop me before I take the plunge." Glen 0/0 From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 1 17:00:55 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 15:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? Message-ID: <200509012200.PAA00958@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> >Never had a problem with this. Most of the problems I have are cards that >> >have not been stored appropriately and have bent or otherwise deformed >> >over time. It's a bitch having to bend them back flat (a process of >> >bending with my hands, over my knee, and in some cases when they just >> >won't cooperate, whacking them repeatedly over the edge of a table). >> >> You should use a steam iron. > >You mean on all 30,000 of them? :) > Hi Sellam Maybe one of those industrial steam irons used at the commercial laundries. I was thinking that you were dealing with them one at a time. For bulk, you might look into how the banks iron bills. They have some method that means they have some kind of machine to handle the problem. These machine must be making it to scrap dealers. Dwight From sieler at allegro.com Thu Sep 1 17:11:05 2005 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:11:05 -0700 Subject: 1979 HP Collectors Dream 2649A model computer In-Reply-To: <200508152132.j7FLWoAc079800@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200508152109.OAA20046@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <43171A09.27261.53478DF8@localhost> Hi Ade , Re: > PS: Ironically, I *do* need an HP terminal.... To get my A700 running! > Unfortunately, being 3000 miles the wrong side of a big lump of water kind > of prevents me from bidding for the "dream computer" of the subject... You can get a decent HP terminal emulator for Windows, QCTerm, for free at http://www.aics-research.com/qcterm/index.html Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 1 17:27:07 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:27:07 -0600 Subject: follow-up on the blinkenlight console project In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1E62@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1E62@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <4317803B.3080300@jetnet.ab.ca> Gooijen, Henk wrote: > Any comment is welcome, but I will ignore proposals for CPLD, Atmel, etc. That kills my idea! I don't think a 68000 will save much time for PDP-8 instructions. I am glad you got the PDP8 booting OS9. Now my real question is how hard would it be getting a IDE interface to look like the real RK8-P Disk using a CPLD. The rest of the PDP8 in 5 CPLD's seem easy to do. 3 ALU, 1 Control , Timing and Serial I/O, IDE interface. > > enjoy the pdp8/e simulation webpage! > - Henk, PA8PDP. what's in a callsign :-) From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Sep 1 18:38:40 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 18:38:40 -0500 Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <200509012200.PAA00958@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200509012200.PAA00958@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050901183840.2890df57.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 15:00:55 -0700 (PDT) "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > > >On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > > >> >Never had a problem with this. Most of the problems I have are > >cards that> >have not been stored appropriately and have bent or > >otherwise deformed> >over time. It's a bitch having to bend them > >back flat (a process of> >bending with my hands, over my knee, and in > >some cases when they just> >won't cooperate, whacking them repeatedly > >over the edge of a table).> > >> You should use a steam iron. > > > >You mean on all 30,000 of them? :) > > > > Hi Sellam > Maybe one of those industrial steam irons used at the > commercial laundries. I was thinking that you were > dealing with them one at a time. For bulk, you might look > into how the banks iron bills. They have some method > that means they have some kind of machine to handle > the problem. These machine must be making it to scrap > dealers. > Dwight > A photographic print drier (the rolling drum type) might also be feasible. Still would be a headache for 30,000 cards, presumably which need to stay in proper order and are unnumbered. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Thu Sep 1 18:58:07 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 16:58:07 -0700 Subject: searching for replacement for 1793 FDC Message-ID: <000f01c5af51$0708b4b0$0300a8c0@downstairs2> I did the FDC design using the WD2797 chip. Anyone can reuse the design as they wish. I have sold out of my original run of these boards. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/DC_5/DC5_Index.htm The WD2797 has three adjustment, a capacitor and 2 trim pots. I used a scope for these adjustment but then made a counter circuit in the Xilinx CPLD to measure the pulse width. The adjustment procedure is given in the users guide. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/DC_5/DC5_DesignDescription.pdf The circuit is in the design description. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/DC_5/DC5_DesignDescription.pdf Working with the Xilinx XC9500 series CPLD is easy and they are 5 volt parts that you can get in PLCC packages. (Through hole sockets.) Programming them takes a simple parallel port adapter that you can make on a small perf board. I have a small PCB and all of the parts I anyone wants to try to use them. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/DC_5/Cable640.jpg http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/DC_5/ParallelCable640.JPG ------------------------------- Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley ------------------------------- From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Sep 1 19:36:57 2005 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 19:36:57 -0500 Subject: DEC VT06 terminal - anybody ever see one? Message-ID: <000601c5af56$6cebd410$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> OK, here's a head-scratcher for all you DECies - does anyone have _any_ info on the VT06 terminal? This was OEM'd for DEC by Datapoint and is based on the Datapoint 3300. Pictures, docs, even hardware would be welcome. Thanks! Jack KC9HVE From gilcarrick at comcast.net Thu Sep 1 20:01:46 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 20:01:46 -0500 Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <200509012200.PAA00958@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200509020112.j821C0fe008960@keith.ezwind.net> ... > >> You should use a steam iron. > > > >You mean on all 30,000 of them? :) > > > > Hi Sellam > Maybe one of those industrial steam irons used at the > commercial laundries. I was thinking that you were dealing > with them one at a time. For bulk, you might look into how > the banks iron bills. They have some method that means they > have some kind of machine to handle the problem. These > machine must be making it to scrap dealers. Now that brings back a flash from the past. I can't remember if the context was bank checks or punched cards, (probably the latter), but way back in the past I remember seeing a machine that would slowly feed such a document between a pair of rollers. The rollers had a pattern in them not unlike a cutter that would be used to produce a crosshatched knurling pattern on a tool handle, but the pattern was not as deep. They used substantial pressure and would straighten the subject document right smartly. Fingers too, no doubt. Gil > Dwight > > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Sep 1 21:03:58 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 19:03:58 -0700 Subject: chamber of horrors on ebay References: Message-ID: <4317B30E.76683AD@msm.umr.edu> warning. this is about as gut wrenching as about anything you may see. seller on ebay: alejoelectronic http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZalejoelectronicQQhtZ-1 why anyone things these parts are more valuable chopped off machines is beyond me. jim From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Sep 1 21:06:11 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 19:06:11 -0700 Subject: apologies for the last post about ebay (stupid error on my part, already noted here) References: Message-ID: <4317B393.BB747484@msm.umr.edu> It was already well known here. gut wrenching to see it though. I found another part, not mentioned here and didn't realize it was the same seller. looks like bobar will have to get a trip to Santiago for his stuff. Jim From gilcarrick at comcast.net Thu Sep 1 21:28:40 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 21:28:40 -0500 Subject: chamber of horrors on ebay In-Reply-To: <4317B30E.76683AD@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200509020238.j822cjLZ009531@keith.ezwind.net> Yeah. That's the guy in Chile that I posted a few days ago. Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim stephens > Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 9:04 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: chamber of horrors on ebay > > warning. this is about as gut wrenching as about anything you may see. > > seller on ebay: alejoelectronic > > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZalejoelectronicQQhtZ-1 > > why anyone things these parts are more valuable chopped off > machines is beyond me. > > jim > From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 22:34:43 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 23:34:43 -0400 Subject: Austria is a long way from Chile! In-Reply-To: <20050901123553.L60265@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050901123553.L60265@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4317C853.9020500@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>I would still be tempted if it was not a 6 hour drive one way across >>>the Alps. > > On Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >>For an IBM 1130 I'd drive that without a second thought. > > > I think that Sellam would drive from California to Austria for an 1130. > Besides seeing how he would drive across the pond, > I'd like to watch him put an 1130 into his Honda. > (I've carried four DTC-300s (stand mounted Hitype 1 daisy wheel > terminals) with a Civic, but never an 1130.) I once carried a VAX 6000, a VAX 4000, four MicroVAX 3100's, and several DECstation 5000's in a Camry. The 6000 was completely disassembled, of course. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 1 23:05:16 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 21:05:16 -0700 Subject: chamber of horrors on ebay In-Reply-To: <4317B30E.76683AD@msm.umr.edu> References: <4317B30E.76683AD@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: >warning. this is about as gut wrenching as about anything you may see. > >seller on ebay: alejoelectronic > >http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZalejoelectronicQQhtZ-1 > >why anyone things these parts are more valuable chopped off machines >is beyond me. > >jim Are they really chopped off machines, or is the guy selling spares? I kind of get the impression it might be someone cleaning out an old warehouse of spares. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Fri Sep 2 01:20:24 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 16:20:24 +1000 Subject: Archives & DECmate In-Reply-To: <4317748A.8010409@bellsouth.net> References: <4317748A.8010409@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On 02/09/2005, at 7:37 AM, Glen Goodwin wrote: > A few months ago there was a discussion on the list > about the DECmate. I can't seem to locate it in the > archives. Am I doing something wrong, or are the > archives not up-to-date? The subject line was something > like "Stop me before I take the plunge." From my personal archives (which occur cause I have a couple of DECmates and I'm not keeping up with all the e-mails in this and other mailing lists I subscribe to) there were a number of postings in May with the subject "DECmate II -> VR201 cable?" I can't find anything with plunge in the subject line. Of course, this could mean that it was a thread I read and deleted, but given it's about DECmates, unless it had no technical content :-), I'd have kept a message or two. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Sep 2 01:31:26 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:31:26 +0200 Subject: searching for replacement for 1793 FDC Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1E63@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hello Michael, Thank you for the offer to reuse your design. I already had looked at it. The chip count is low, and I do not need the CPLD, so there are just a few parts left! However, I wanted to stick to my 1973, because I was not sure about the copy-right stuff. I will take a few days to think things through and then decide if I keep the 1793 or move up to the 279x. The 279x sure saves some soldering work! Thanks, - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Holley > Sent: vrijdag 2 september 2005 1:58 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: searching for replacement for 1793 FDC > > I did the FDC design using the WD2797 chip. Anyone can reuse > the design as they wish. I have sold out of my original run > of these boards. > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/DC_5/DC5_Index.htm > > The WD2797 has three adjustment, a capacitor and 2 trim pots. > I used a scope for these adjustment but then made a counter > circuit in the Xilinx CPLD to measure the pulse width. The > adjustment procedure is given in the users guide. > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/DC_5/DC5_DesignDescription.pdf > > The circuit is in the design description. > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/DC_5/DC5_DesignDescription.pdf > > Working with the Xilinx XC9500 series CPLD is easy and they > are 5 volt parts that you can get in PLCC packages. (Through > hole sockets.) > > Programming them takes a simple parallel port adapter that > you can make on a small perf board. I have a small PCB and > all of the parts I anyone wants to try to use them. > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/DC_5/Cable640.jpg > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/DC_5/ParallelCable640.JPG > > ------------------------------- > Michael Holley > www.swtpc.com/mholley > ------------------------------- From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Sep 2 02:41:10 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 00:41:10 -0700 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? References: Message-ID: <43180204.AE0E61BC@cs.ubc.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Tue, 30 Aug 2005, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > The sad part is that at least two of the control panels look like they may have > > just been stripped from complete units. > > There's nothing terribly special about the 3420 drives. I mean, who > (beside my insane self) is going to want one? And if so, for what, other > than gawking at it? Yeah, well, they're just neat, that's all. Side-by-side-reel vacuum-column tape drives: #2 on the list of iconic aspects of early computers, although I take it from it's appearance and what you and William are saying that these (3420s) are late models (last of the breed?). Granted that dealing wih IBM stuff is difficult in the absence of the rest of the system if you want it be anything other than a big dead artifact (which I guess is why you are annoyed with their occupation of your warehouse.) >Pfeh. That's modern stuff. I'm after 400 series accounting machines >myself ;) ... > There's nothing terribly special about the 3420 drives. I mean, who And circa-1970-or-so one could say the same about 400 series accounting machines as they headed to the scrapper. :) Actually, two years ago I passed up an opportunity for a full-size vac-col 7-track tape drive of 60s vintage. I wouldn't have minded too much it occupying some space but I really did not relish the thought of dragging it around to whatever space it was going to occupy. Had been in a garage or basement for a couple of decades and the vacuum pump had been pilfered. The guy who took it to the scrap dealer got $100-$200 for the aluminum. I'm left with the copper-clad head assembly and a tape position sensor from a vacuum column. Didn't find out the model or manufacturer, although the circuit boards were made from the pale-yellow phenolic material like that of IBM SMS cards of the late-50s/early-60s. It would have been fun to RE it, make a controller and interface it to something to make it functional. ("Couldn't be that difficult, could it?", he said in ignorance.) From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 2 02:56:14 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 00:56:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <200509012200.PAA00958@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Maybe one of those industrial steam irons used at the > commercial laundries. I was thinking that you were > dealing with them one at a time. For bulk, you might look > into how the banks iron bills. They have some method > that means they have some kind of machine to handle > the problem. These machine must be making it to scrap > dealers. It's not that big a problem. It's only if they are severely deformed (say more than a 10 degree arc). I just grab a stack and whack them back into shape, then start the reader running while I reform another stack and keep feeding the reader. It doesn't happen with every deck, and I've gotten good at finessing the reader to get through most of the cards without a problem :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 2 03:02:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 01:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: <43180204.AE0E61BC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Granted that dealing wih IBM stuff is difficult in the absence of the rest of > the system if you want it be anything other than a big dead artifact (which I > guess is why you are annoyed with their occupation of your warehouse.) Well, I can't be too annoyed since I'm the one that put them there :) But that was basically my point: without any real chance of getting a full system, what's the point of having them? You can get them running in a test mode and have a tape being de-spooled from one reel onto a take-up reel, but that's about it. > And circa-1970-or-so one could say the same about 400 series accounting > machines as they headed to the scrapper. :) Very true. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Sep 2 04:30:24 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 02:30:24 -0700 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? References: Message-ID: <43181B9E.8FEBCEDF@cs.ubc.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > that was basically my point: without any real chance of getting a full > system, what's the point of having them? You can get them running in a > test mode and have a tape being de-spooled from one reel onto a take-up > reel, but that's about it. Well, there's another project for someone into such: a generalised 'IBM 360/370 Style I/O Channel' adapter/interface to something modern/common. Although I will speculate somebody with experience with IBM channel stuff will promptly suggest it would be a nightmare. (My only experience with them is people from the past attesting to how complex/arcane said channels were. Always left me a little curious.) From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Sep 2 06:16:22 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:16:22 +0200 Subject: IBM 1130 on eBay Austria In-Reply-To: <20050901045828.72968.qmail@web81301.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050901045622.48293.qmail@web81304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <431850A6.2013.48914ACD@localhost> Am 31 Aug 2005 21:58 meinte William Maddox: > --- William Maddox wrote: > > There is an IBM 1130 up for sale on eBay in Austria. > > The current price is 500 euros, with no bids and > > scarcely a day to go. Well, we tried to keep it in Europe (after all, it's a German unit), but some guy in the US did outbid us. It might be interesting to see how he organizes the pickup in Linz. From Munich it would just have been a 3 hour drive with a small truck :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 2 08:31:57 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 09:31:57 -0400 Subject: chamber of horrors on ebay References: <4317B30E.76683AD@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <17176.21581.929438.541658@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "jim" == jim stephens writes: jim> warning. this is about as gut wrenching as about anything you jim> may see. seller on ebay: alejoelectronic jim> http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZalejoelectronicQQhtZ-1 jim> why anyone things these parts are more valuable chopped off jim> machines is beyond me. I'm not sure I see the problem. It's impossible to know if the machines they were taken from were operational. Breaking devices up for spare parts, in such a way that the spare parts are indeed functional subsystems, is a perfectly good way of recycling otherwise useless stuff. That applies to cars, it applies to computers. For example the first item: it's not bits of printer chain suitable only for hanging on the wall, it appears to be a useable printer chain assembly ready to load into your printer. And yes, quite often parts are more valuable than the whole system. Ask any car parts dealer... paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 2 08:51:57 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 09:51:57 -0400 Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? References: <200509012200.PAA00958@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <17176.22781.270788.458330@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> Maybe one of those industrial steam irons used at the commercial >> laundries. I was thinking that you were dealing with them one at a >> time. For bulk, you might look into how the banks iron bills. They >> have some method that means they have some kind of machine to >> handle the problem. These machine must be making it to scrap >> dealers. Vintage> It's not that big a problem. It's only if they are severely Vintage> deformed (say more than a 10 degree arc). I just grab a Vintage> stack and whack them back into shape, then start the reader Vintage> running while I reform another stack and keep feeding the Vintage> reader. It doesn't happen with every deck, and I've gotten Vintage> good at finessing the reader to get through most of the Vintage> cards without a problem :) That's a good point. IBM card readers tend to be more demanding, since they (at least the ones I know) push the card into the reader by its far edge. This is done with a chunk of metal that has a step on it whose height matches the card thickness. Most other card readers (for example the DEC/Documation ones) use a vacuum pick. The card is grabbed near its leading edge with a rubber-coated devices that has holes in it leading to a vacuum pump. So long as the leading edge isn't badly mangled, or you hand it two cards stapled together, this scheme is very forgiving of bent cards. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 2 08:55:12 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 09:55:12 -0400 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? References: <43181B9E.8FEBCEDF@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <17176.22976.467979.108316@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Brent" == Brent Hilpert writes: Brent> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> that was basically my point: without any real chance of getting a >> full system, what's the point of having them? You can get them >> running in a test mode and have a tape being de-spooled from one >> reel onto a take-up reel, but that's about it. Brent> Well, there's another project for someone into such: a Brent> generalised 'IBM 360/370 Style I/O Channel' adapter/interface Brent> to something modern/common. Although I will speculate somebody Brent> with experience with IBM channel stuff will promptly suggest Brent> it would be a nightmare. (My only experience with them is Brent> people from the past attesting to how complex/arcane said Brent> channels were. Always left me a little curious.) You could use a DX10 or DX11 as the starting point, if schemeatics for those are available... paul From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 2 09:40:41 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 07:40:41 -0700 Subject: chamber of horrors on ebay In-Reply-To: <17176.21581.929438.541658@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4317B30E.76683AD@msm.umr.edu> <17176.21581.929438.541658@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: >And yes, quite often parts are more valuable than the whole system. >Ask any car parts dealer... > > paul If I need part "X" to keep my "Y" Computer running, then part "X" is going to be worth more to me than another "Y" Computer. There are things like shipping costs and storage/disposal costs to consider. Of course if part "X" with shipping costs more than "Y" Computer with shipping, then I'm going for the whole computer. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gcarrick at cse.uta.edu Fri Sep 2 00:20:46 2005 From: gcarrick at cse.uta.edu (A. G. Carrick) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 00:20:46 -0500 Subject: Diablo model 30 redux Message-ID: <200509020530.j825Ulo2010630@keith.ezwind.net> Remember those model 30 parts I was trying to give away/swap. Here is a picture of a model 30 installed in a system you have probably heard of: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Alto You could have knocked me over with a feather. Of course the article describes this as the system "hard disk", and I guess it was. When I was using them in the mid to late '70s we were using them like floppies and running the mini on a 40-80 MB removable drive. Gil From g-wright at att.net Fri Sep 2 01:39:17 2005 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 06:39:17 +0000 Subject: IBM S/60 5362 and others need homes Message-ID: <090220050639.15047.4317F3940008704900003AC721603759649B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, Still trying to find homes for a few pieces. These are all on .....Death Row..... and need to go soon. One is a IBM S/60 5362 Looks complete with 8" floppy and hard drive. Has 2 manuals inside the cover This is a Desk side size box. I have not tested it in any way. No terimal included. Quite heavy. local pick up only. 75.00 Grahman Magnetics (Carlisle) "Magtape Inspector IV" Tape evaluation system. This is a Vacuum column Mag tape tester with lots of LED's and LED read outs. Also has a built in printer for the results. Puts on quit a show when running. Works Quit heavy, local pickup only. Free 4) DEC HSC systems no hard drives models 60 to 90 very heavy, local pick up only . Free I'm located in Kent, WA. south of Seattle Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc 253-854-9601 PST Wk days g-wright at att.net From sonnet at sols.ucl.ac.be Fri Sep 2 10:15:04 2005 From: sonnet at sols.ucl.ac.be (Philippe Sonnet) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:15:04 +0100 Subject: DEC Computer Lab References: <14452710.1125282980136.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <013e01c5afd1$18d4ebc0$70276882@solssilex> Dear Ashley, Yes, I have them. See http://www.sonnet.be/dec/computerlab.htm I can photocopy them for you, if you want. Philippe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Carder" To: Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 3:36 AM Subject: DEC Computer Lab > Does anyone have the manual or workbook for a DEC Computer Lab, which is a > classroom logic trainer that was made by DEC back in the late 1960s? I > recently acquired two of these interesting little pieces of computing > history, along with the patch cords. I'd like to have the manual so I can > learn more about it. > > Thanks, > Ashley > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Sep 2 10:44:40 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 08:44:40 -0700 Subject: More unknown stuff References: <200508301802.j7UI23Kh077752@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <43187368.5148B37@msm.umr.edu> 14" drives with the type of head in the photo (or similar) would have been from 2.5mb / side to 5mb / side of platter. CDC came out with the Hawk, I think (all their drives were birds then) and which was an 8" drive, and it had 20mb, 20mb on each side of a platter. I don't recall the name, but they also had a removable cartidge type drive with a single platter as well. An 8" drive which was not ANSI interfaced or SMD interface would have been unusual. I don't know if PDP8's ever had an interface to SMD other than maybe odd knockoff vendors. The 14" drive they used would have had RF from the heads on the interface cable, and a servo signal doing the seek, rather than the SMD drives later use of an address on the cable, and ANSI's attempt to get rid of both RF for the data, and going to a sort of protocol similar to scsi. Infomag sold positioners to Microdata, who had drives of both the type mentioned above, as well as a winchester design. There was also other Southern California drive makers who used them as well. I belive that Priam used them in their drives, as well as some up in the valley, such as Micropolis. It is interesting that the media coating on the platter seems to be silver in color, so the media may have been metal plated, rather than oxide coated. I could not tell much from the photo quality about that. some magna-see on the surface would be interesting, as you could then measure the track spacing Jim "A. G. Carrick" wrote: > > I haven't heard that name in a *long* time. They were > > originally in Goleta California and IIRC moved somewhere down > > south in the 70's. What information are you after? > > Anything about the drive that this hardware came out of. We have a museum of > sorts to illustrate computer development to our CS students and have a bunch > of older hardware items that we try to position in the spectrum of things. > Model number, when, how big, how fast, ... anything. > > TIA, > > Gil > > > > > A. G. Carrick wrote: > > > > > I had previously asked about a disk platter I was trying to > > identify. > > > I have a couple of more pictures of it as well as some > > items from another drive. > > > The latter is stamped "INFOMAG". By doing some www research > > I thought I had From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 2 10:56:07 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:56:07 -0700 Subject: Diablo model 30 redux Message-ID: <7ba75a897d09dd29ce4d8ecfdceb939a@bitsavers.org> > Remember those model 30 parts I was trying to give away/swap. When was this? Do you still have them? -al (who HAS an Alto, and a bunch of Diablo 30's) From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Sep 2 11:11:07 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 09:11:07 -0700 Subject: chamber of horrors on ebay References: <4317B30E.76683AD@msm.umr.edu> <17176.21581.929438.541658@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4318799B.3A057B7D@msm.umr.edu> Paul, There is no market for anything on this guy's list that remotely applies to the parts argument. This is all obsolete stuff. The entire units would be better than the parts shown in the auctions, assuming they were available. If the stash comes from spares, then it is forgivable, but too many of these are hacked off working machines, and put up for sale only then by scrappers. I have had direct experience with at least two, who I educated and purchased stuff from. They simply don't know. I did recieve a reply from the guy about the Basic 4 front panel, which is for a Microdata 1600 (do you read this stuff Jay?) and he does not have any other parts but a blue Basic 4 badged printer, probably a data products B150 or B300. there are two guys I have purchased from on ebay who have spares in the US, who were not scrappers. but there are a couple of others who should have known better. Mostly the ones who post the 360 aluminum signs. Jim Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "jim" == jim stephens writes: From vrs at msn.com Fri Sep 2 11:22:31 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 09:22:31 -0700 Subject: DEC Computer Lab References: <14452710.1125282980136.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <013e01c5afd1$18d4ebc0$70276882@solssilex> Message-ID: I tried to send this off-list, but got an instant bounce: From: "Philippe Sonnet" > Dear Ashley, > > Yes, I have them. See > http://www.sonnet.be/dec/computerlab.htm > I can photocopy them for you, if you want. I'd also be interested in a copy of the "Computer Lab Teacher's Guide". (I have copies of the student workbook already.) Thanks, Vince From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Sep 2 11:33:50 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 09:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anybody live in Chile? Message-ID: <200509021633.JAA01420@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> Granted that dealing wih IBM stuff is difficult in the absence of the rest of >> the system if you want it be anything other than a big dead artifact (which I >> guess is why you are annoyed with their occupation of your warehouse.) > >Well, I can't be too annoyed since I'm the one that put them there :) But >that was basically my point: without any real chance of getting a full >system, what's the point of having them? You can get them running in a >test mode and have a tape being de-spooled from one reel onto a take-up >reel, but that's about it. > ---snip--- Hi I see no reason one couldn't connect it to just about any machine. Not an original configuration but still, a working setup. One might even recover data from original tapes this way. Dwight From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Sep 2 11:52:02 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 09:52:02 -0700 Subject: DEC Computer Lab In-Reply-To: <013e01c5afd1$18d4ebc0$70276882@solssilex> References: <14452710.1125282980136.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <013e01c5afd1$18d4ebc0$70276882@solssilex> Message-ID: <200509020952.02355.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 02 September 2005 08:15, Philippe Sonnet wrote: > Dear Ashley, > > Yes, I have them. See > http://www.sonnet.be/dec/computerlab.htm > I can photocopy them for you, if you want. > > Philippe I'd also appreciate a copy... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dmabry at mich.com Fri Sep 2 13:15:25 2005 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:15:25 -0400 Subject: Intel MDS Series II IOC question In-Reply-To: <20050901130640.S99592@racsys.rachors.com> References: <4317337B.8010106@mich.com> <20050901130640.S99592@racsys.rachors.com> Message-ID: <431896BD.7070906@mich.com> Thanks, George, and Randy. Good suggestions. In this case the only scanbe sockets are the eight ram chips. I'll check them but I would bet the RAM test in the diagnostics is the first beep. All the rest of the sockets are already the Augat type. Looks like I'm going to start disassembling the firmware to see what that might reveal. George L. Rachor Jr. wrote: > Greetings Dave, > > > Possibly helpful hints from a friend not on this list: > ------------ > Subject: Re: Intel MDS Series II IOC question (fwd) > > Hi George, > > My first thought is SCANBE. > My second thought is SCANBE. > My third thought is... can you guess? > Replacing the SCANBE sockets with AUGAT barrel type on the older IOC's > has always solved my 5 beep test problems. Making sure all socketed > components > are properly seated in reliable sockets. The manuals, flow charts, > etc... > all say to replace the IOC if the 5 beeps test fails. The manual called: > Customer Engineer Diagnostic System Test Operating Instructions For > Series II Systems > (121619-001) may break down the 5 beep test, but I do not have a copy. > > Tips for replacing the SCANBE sockets. > 1. Pull the plastic housing of the SCANBE socket off the board. > 2. Remove the mylar sheet from between the pins. > 3. On the component side grab one of the pins with needle nose pliers > while heating same pin on the solder side, pull to remove. > Repeat for all pins. > 4. Use solder wick to remove solder from holes and clean up. > 5. Clean area with flux-off if needed. > 6. Install AUGAT machine barrel socket. > 7. Clean area with flux-off. > > Randy > > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george at rachors.com > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 2 16:52:47 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 16:52:47 Subject: DEC Computer Lab In-Reply-To: <013e01c5afd1$18d4ebc0$70276882@solssilex> References: <14452710.1125282980136.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050902165247.3bafb690@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Philippe, Can you post or E-mail a picture of what the cables and their connectors look like? I know a surplus store that lots of patch cables and I may be able to located some for the computer lab. The more detailed description you can provide the more likely I'll be able to find some. joe At 04:15 PM 9/2/05 +0100, you wrote: >Dear Ashley, > >Yes, I have them. See >http://www.sonnet.be/dec/computerlab.htm >I can photocopy them for you, if you want. > >Philippe > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ashley Carder" >To: >Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 3:36 AM >Subject: DEC Computer Lab > > >> Does anyone have the manual or workbook for a DEC Computer Lab, which is a >> classroom logic trainer that was made by DEC back in the late 1960s? I >> recently acquired two of these interesting little pieces of computing >> history, along with the patch cords. I'd like to have the manual so I can >> learn more about it. >> >> Thanks, >> Ashley >> > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 2 17:56:23 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 15:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <17176.22781.270788.458330@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200509012200.PAA00958@clulw009.amd.com> <17176.22781.270788.458330@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050902155118.N11232@shell.lmi.net> About 35 years ago, my father did a bunch of social science research consulting for CBS. For one of their studies, they sent people port-a-punch cards, and had people just put a stamp on them to mail them! I don't know what madhine they used (and my father has been dead too long to ask him), but the IBM CEs were able to open the gate wide enough to take cards with stamps on them, that had gone through the mail! I was very surprised. I had suggested using oversized cards, and cutting off the end with the stamp. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Sep 2 18:25:07 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 18:25:07 -0500 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: <43180204.AE0E61BC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <43180204.AE0E61BC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20050902182507.4d84d012.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 00:41:10 -0700 Brent Hilpert wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > On Tue, 30 Aug 2005, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > > > The sad part is that at least two of the control panels look like > > > they may have just been stripped from complete units. > > > > There's nothing terribly special about the 3420 drives. I mean, who > > (beside my insane self) is going to want one? And if so, for what, > > other than gawking at it? > > Yeah, well, they're just neat, that's all. Side-by-side-reel > vacuum-column tape drives: > #2 on the list of iconic aspects of early computers, although I take > #it from it's > appearance and what you and William are saying that these (3420s) are > late models(last of the breed?). > Where I worked, in the late 70's, it was the NEWER drives that had vacuum columns. The old drives were the ones I had to deal with the most. It was a COM facility so the only thing we ever did was read tapes, but they came from all over the place (different customers). Also, it was only the NEWEST drive that had 6250 bpi. Mostly we dealt with 800 and 1600 tapes, and with drives that had switchable 7/9 track heads. I wouldn't call vacuum column drives an icon of EARLY computers... From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Sep 2 18:24:34 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 19:24:34 -0400 Subject: chamber of horrors on ebay In-Reply-To: <17176.21581.929438.541658@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4317B30E.76683AD@msm.umr.edu> <17176.21581.929438.541658@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4318DF32.nail3S511VFDE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > seller on ebay: alejoelectronic Many of the vacuum-tube based IBM modules he's selling were widely available for real cheap in the surplus electronic world in the late 60's and through the 70's. I bought a few (which were quickly stripped for their component parts). I probably paid way less than a dollar per tube module. How many museums/billioniares are there who can keep, say, an IBM 704 up and functional? Tim. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Sep 2 19:20:53 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 17:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 1130 on eBay Austria Message-ID: <200509030020.RAA01767@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Hans Franke" > >Am 31 Aug 2005 21:58 meinte William Maddox: >> --- William Maddox wrote: >> > There is an IBM 1130 up for sale on eBay in Austria. >> > The current price is 500 euros, with no bids and >> > scarcely a day to go. > >Well, we tried to keep it in Europe (after all, it's a >German unit), but some guy in the US did outbid us. It >might be interesting to see how he organizes the pickup >in Linz. From Munich it would just have been a 3 hour >drive with a small truck :) > >Gruss >H. >-- >VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen >http://www.vcfe.org/ > > Hi Hans I know the fellow that just won the 1130. He is a neighbor of mine ( about 2 miles away ). He is one of the few other people that I know of that has a Nicolet NIC-80. He said he'd rather have a 1620 but a 1130 will just have to do. He has a hanger to put it in. I know he expects to get it running. The project of getting it across the pond is going to be interesting to follow. I'll try to get him to take pictures and post them on his web page of his adventures. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 2 18:17:50 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 00:17:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: 64 pin SIMM (Mac IIFX) Specs? In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Walther" at Aug 31, 5 01:28:41 pm Message-ID: > My main concern is that the pinout lists a separate data pin for data > in and data out. So even though they are eight bit SIMMs, there is > a Data In [0:7] and Data Out [0:7] in the pin out. It's possible, > perhaps likely, that these are simply tied together, but it would be > nice to see some confirmation. The chips I've identified on IIfx > SIMMs don't appear to be dual ported and I don't see any extra > circuitry on the SIMM that could be making an adaptation, but I'm > working from JPEGs so far. If this looks feasible I'll actually > spring for a IIfx and a few SIMMs to work from. Most, if not all, of the single-bit-wide DRAM chips (4164, 41256, etc) had separate DIN and DOUT pins. They were not dual-ported, though, you only had one address bus for both reading and writing. You could link these pins together externally, or you could use them separately. IIRC on the IBM PC, the DIN and DOUT pins are linked on the RAMs storing data bits, but wired separately on the RAMs storting the parity bits. I think SIMMs brought the pins out separately so that you could use them separately if you wanted to, or just link them together on the SIMM socket. If you have the machines that are supposed to use these 64 pin SIMMs, can you not just check to see if DIN and DOUT are linked on the mainboard with an ohmmeter? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 2 18:27:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 00:27:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Intel MDS Series II IOC question In-Reply-To: <20050901130640.S99592@racsys.rachors.com> from "George L. Rachor Jr." at Sep 1, 5 01:09:36 pm Message-ID: > > Greetings Dave, > > > Possibly helpful hints from a friend not on this list: > ------------ > Subject: Re: Intel MDS Series II IOC question (fwd) > > Hi George, > > My first thought is SCANBE. > My second thought is SCANBE. > My third thought is... can you guess? I assume these are cheap and useless IC sockets..... > Replacing the SCANBE sockets with AUGAT barrel type on the older IOC's > has always solved my 5 beep test problems. Making sure all socketed > components > are properly seated in reliable sockets. The manuals, flow charts, etc... This reminds me of my Whitechapel MG1. The 'expensive' devices, CPU (32016), FPU (32081), I/O processor (68121 IIRC), etc were all in turned-pin sockets. The EPROMs were in cheap-n-nasty sockets. Replacing the latter with turned-pin so;ved a lot of problems... > all say to replace the IOC if the 5 beeps test fails. The manual called: Darn board-swapper guides... > Customer Engineer Diagnostic System Test Operating Instructions For > Series II Systems > (121619-001) may break down the 5 beep test, but I do not have a copy. > > Tips for replacing the SCANBE sockets. > 1. Pull the plastic housing of the SCANBE socket off the board. > 2. Remove the mylar sheet from between the pins. > 3. On the component side grab one of the pins with needle nose pliers > while heating same pin on the solder side, pull to remove. > Repeat for all pins. > 4. Use solder wick to remove solder from holes and clean up. I find one of the best ways to clean out PCB holes is to melt the solder with an iron on the 'solder side' and use a solder sucker from the component side. > 5. Clean area with flux-off if needed. > 6. Install AUGAT machine barrel socket. > 7. Clean area with flux-off. > -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 2 18:47:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 00:47:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: <43181B9E.8FEBCEDF@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Sep 2, 5 02:30:24 am Message-ID: > Well, there's another project for someone into such: a generalised 'IBM 360/370 > Style I/O Channel' adapter/interface to something modern/common. Although I > will speculate somebody with experience with IBM channel stuff will promptly > suggest it would be a nightmare. (My only experience with them is people from > the past attesting to how complex/arcane said channels were. Always left me a > little curious.) I've never seriously looked at the IBM channel, but the DX11, the Unibus -> IBM Channel interface, is 8 rows of M-series flip-chip cards, plus a power control chassis + a PSU. And that only does the 'peripheral' side of the interface, it can't be the 'master' (if that's the term). So yes, I guess it is complicated... -tony From wacarder at earthlink.net Fri Sep 2 19:56:01 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 20:56:01 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: DEC Computer Lab Message-ID: <11194431.1125708962239.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> Dear Ashley, >> >> Yes, I have them. See >> http://www.sonnet.be/dec/computerlab.htm >> I can photocopy them for you, if you want. > > I'd also be interested in a copy of the "Computer Lab Teacher's Guide". > (I have copies of the student workbook already.) > > Thanks, > > Vince Phillippe, I would like a copy of the teacher's guide too. Thanks for your offer to photocopy. You can email me off-list at wacarder at usit.net. Thanks, Ashley From wacarder at earthlink.net Fri Sep 2 20:03:33 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 21:03:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: DEC Computer Lab Message-ID: <18583518.1125709413708.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >>> Dear Ashley, >>> >>> Yes, I have them. See >>> http://www.sonnet.be/dec/computerlab.htm >>> I can photocopy them for you, if you want. >> >> I'd also be interested in a copy of the "Computer Lab Teacher's Guide". >> (I have copies of the student workbook already.) >> >> Thanks, >> >> Vince > >Phillippe, > >I would like a copy of the teacher's guide too. Thanks for your offer >to photocopy. You can email me off-list at wacarder at usit.net. > >Thanks, >Ashley Phillippe, If you want to just make one copy, you can send it to me and I will copy it and send to the other folks here in the U.S. That will keep you from having to pay for multiple shipments across the ocean. Ashley From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Sep 2 20:06:06 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 18:06:06 -0700 Subject: Heads Up for Seattle area collectors Message-ID: <200509021806060444.13EB8849@192.168.42.129> Fellow techies, I was at Boeing Surplus today in Kent, and I spotted a nice 9-track drive in one of the 'washing machine' style floor cabinets. It was tagged at $25.00. No idea what vintage or density (I was timestressed), but the I/O cable looked like a high-density D-sub-50 (form factor of a D-sub-37, but with 50 contacts spread across three rows). I'll bet it'll still be there tomorrow. Bring at least a pickup truck and two strong bodies if you want it. Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Sep 2 20:13:15 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:13:15 -0500 Subject: Scanning at public libraries? Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050902201005.05055150@mail> I'm in a relatively small town (pop. 7,500) but the local public library is leasing a Minolta business-class copier. It includes software that runs on an adjacent PC that can read a stack of papers and convert to TIFF, JPEG, Acrobat or OCR. I may be the only one (as the library's computer consultant) to have figured out all the features; I don't think they've even set rates for the non-copy-machine features. - John From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Sep 2 20:19:43 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 21:19:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: chamber of horrors on ebay In-Reply-To: <4318DF32.nail3S511VFDE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: > How many museums/billioniares are there who can keep, say, an IBM 704 > up and functional? I wish someone would get a Bendix G15 running - that is completely reasonable. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Sep 2 20:22:16 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 21:22:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: chamber of horrors on ebay In-Reply-To: <4318799B.3A057B7D@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: > There is no market for anything on this guy's list that remotely > applies to the parts argument. This is all obsolete stuff. The entire > units would be better than the parts shown in the auctions, assuming > they were available. There are quite a few 3803/3420s in service right now, but the ranks are getting smaller all the time. 3420s are pretty bulletproof - moreso than the followup drives - but they still break. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Sep 2 20:24:17 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 21:24:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: does any read punch cards anymore? In-Reply-To: <17176.22781.270788.458330@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > IBM card readers tend to be more demanding, since they (at least the > ones I know) push the card into the reader by its far edge. This is > done with a chunk of metal that has a step on it whose height matches > the card thickness. IBM's card readers varied greatly in quality - the 2501 would suck up anything, and the 2560 MFCM was known as the "Mother Fucking Card Mangler". William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Sep 2 20:26:48 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 21:26:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: <43181B9E.8FEBCEDF@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Well, there's another project for someone into such: a generalised 'IBM 360/370 > Style I/O Channel' adapter/interface to something modern/common. Although I > will speculate somebody with experience with IBM channel stuff will promptly > suggest it would be a nightmare. (My only experience with them is people from > the past attesting to how complex/arcane said channels were. Always left me a > little curious.) Judging from the S/3 Mod 15 docs (the big S/3s had a bus and tag channel for a DASD), bus and tag is not completely weird, and could be implemented without too much trouble. It is not fast, by today's (or even yesterday's) standard. The drivers and receivers might be a little bit of a hassle, unless some were chopped out of an existing IBM. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Sep 2 20:29:27 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 21:29:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well, I can't be too annoyed since I'm the one that put them there :) But > that was basically my point: without any real chance of getting a full > system, what's the point of having them? You can get them running in a > test mode and have a tape being de-spooled from one reel onto a take-up > reel, but that's about it. The 3803 will do quite a bit of things - but yes, without a bus and tag equipped processor, not much happens. The small ES/9000 (the 9221), or an S/390, can use a 3480 system. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Sep 2 20:31:08 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 21:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: <43180204.AE0E61BC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Yeah, well, they're just neat, that's all. Side-by-side-reel vacuum-column tape drives: > #2 on the list of iconic aspects of early computers, although I take it from it's > appearance and what you and William are saying that these (3420s) are late models > (last of the breed?). No, but probably the best. IBMs followups (3410, 8809, and the one with the BIG dot matrix status display (help on the number please?) were not nearly as nice. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Sep 2 20:33:58 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 20:33:58 -0500 Subject: Intel MDS Series II IOC question In-Reply-To: References: <20050901130640.S99592@racsys.rachors.com> Message-ID: <20050902203358.012820e2.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 3 Sep 2005 00:27:19 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > Greetings Dave, > > > > > > Possibly helpful hints from a friend not on this list: > > ------------ > > Subject: Re: Intel MDS Series II IOC question (fwd) > > > > Hi George, > > > > My first thought is SCANBE. > > My second thought is SCANBE. > > My third thought is... can you guess? > > I assume these are cheap and useless IC sockets..... > Somehow I had guessed for authenticity purposes, you would be campaigning for people to _preserve_ these sockets. Nightmare-grade unreliable sockets are part of the history of the particular machines they were installed in. > > Replacing the SCANBE sockets with AUGAT barrel type on the older > > IOC's has always solved my 5 beep test problems. Making sure all > > socketed components > > are properly seated in reliable sockets. The manuals, flow charts, > > etc... > > This reminds me of my Whitechapel MG1. The 'expensive' devices, CPU > (32016), FPU (32081), I/O processor (68121 IIRC), etc were all in > turned-pin sockets. The EPROMs were in cheap-n-nasty sockets. > Replacing the latter with turned-pin so;ved a lot of problems... > I guess you don't view it as an issue. Were machine-pin sockets even _available_ when some of the early machines were produced? Note- I didn't make the above comments to start a flame war. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Sep 2 20:42:48 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 20:42:48 -0500 Subject: Intel MDS Series II IOC question In-Reply-To: <20050902203358.012820e2.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050901130640.S99592@racsys.rachors.com> <20050902203358.012820e2.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050902204248.0bc5c5fb.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 2 Sep 2005 20:33:58 -0500 Scott Stevens wrote: > > Note- I didn't make the above comments to start a flame war. > I feel bad about raising this issue the way I did and I apologize to the list for being wreckless. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 2 20:50:47 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 20:50:47 -0500 Subject: chamber of horrors on ebay References: <4317B30E.76683AD@msm.umr.edu><17176.21581.929438.541658@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4318799B.3A057B7D@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <00b001c5b02a$e1b074c0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote... > I did recieve a reply from the guy about the Basic 4 front panel, > which is for a Microdata 1600 (do you read this stuff Jay?) I was ready to say "no way" since I've worked on hundreds of M1600 machines, and actually owned two of them which sat in my garage for some time. But upon looking closer at the picture again, you are right - it is an M1600 panel. I didn't recognize it because every M1600 machine I've ever seen (including mine) had the full programmers front panel. The panel you mentioned on ebay is the minimal operators panel which I have never seen sold on any machine. Good call! Jay PS - Yes I do read this stuff :) From george at rachors.com Fri Sep 2 21:40:45 2005 From: george at rachors.com (George L. Rachor Jr.) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 19:40:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Heads Up for Seattle area collectors In-Reply-To: <200509021806060444.13EB8849@192.168.42.129> References: <200509021806060444.13EB8849@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <20050902194004.O5761@racsys.rachors.com> What are the hours for that place... No I don't need the tape drive... but I've always wanted to stop by that place. George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george at rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Bruce Lane wrote: > Fellow techies, > > I was at Boeing Surplus today in Kent, and I spotted a nice 9-track drive in one of the 'washing machine' style floor cabinets. It was tagged at $25.00. > > No idea what vintage or density (I was timestressed), but the I/O cable looked like a high-density D-sub-50 (form factor of a D-sub-37, but with 50 contacts spread across three rows). > > I'll bet it'll still be there tomorrow. Bring at least a pickup truck and two strong bodies if you want it. > > Keep the peace(es). > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, > Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com > kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m > "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 2 21:58:39 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 21:58:39 -0500 Subject: DEC boards of value? Message-ID: <00f101c5b033$631728d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Someone emailed me (a non-collector) with a list of DEC boards and they want to know if they have any monetary value. I'm not up on many dec boards, particularly XNNN type numbers. So I was hoping people here could tell me if any of the below are particularly sought after. I suspect the guy will want to part with them, likely all at once rather than piecemeal. Let me know! Jay ------------- AtoD (5) (matched pairs with the A002) A002 (5) A231 (1) A233 (1) A633 (1) G736 (1) K581 (1) M105 (1) M111 (5) M112 (1) M113 (9) M115 (6) M117 (3) M121 (2) M206 (9) M216 (5) M304 (1) M310 (1) M401 (2) M602 (3) M617 (2) M623 (2) M783 (3) M805 (1) M851 (4) M942 (2) M3020 (2) M7821 (1) W406 (4) W741 (2) W743 (1) Jumper card (4) From vrs at msn.com Fri Sep 2 22:26:46 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 20:26:46 -0700 Subject: DEC boards of value? References: <00f101c5b033$631728d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: From: "Jay West" > Someone emailed me (a non-collector) with a list of DEC boards > and they want to know if they have any monetary value. I'm not > up on many dec boards, particularly XNNN type numbers. So I was > hoping people here could tell me if any of the below are > particularly sought after. I suspect the guy will want > to part with them, likely all at once rather than piecemeal. > Let me know! Most of the Mxxx cards you mentioned are fairly generic. The Axxx and Wxxx stuff looks more interesting. None of it is anything I particularly need (looks like the non-generic stuff is more -11 than -8). I suspect you could get a few dollars each for them one at a time on ePay, or rather less as a lot. My own ePay rule of thumb is about $5 each for an Mxxx flip-chip module spare. If it is something I specifically need, I'll pay more. Gxxx and other modules are often specific to a particular device, so I am willing to pay more (assuming it's a device relevant to my collection). This works out well because there is usually someone else willing to pay a little more, and I already have a fair number of spares :-). Vince From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Sep 2 23:09:28 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 00:09:28 -0400 Subject: Rare IIfx Accelerator? References: Message-ID: <008e01c5b03d$4769d920$0500fea9@game> Today I got a Mac Nubus card in the mail and was told it was a Tokamac Accelerator. The Card has written on it : Donoho Design Group, Inc Copyright 1992 PN: 04-106 with a hand written paper tag on the back (219-2525-360). Its a full length card with 2 connectors (NUBUS and PDS inline). The card fits in my IIfx perfectly. Besides the 68040/33 processor there are 3 chips labeled "Toruc", "Nexus", "Fusor" on the card (xilinx xc 3030-100 type chips). If this card the Tokamac IIfx or do I have something else? If so where can I find drivers for this beast (havn't had any luck so far with google and old Mac driver sites). Cards of this vintage are usualy hard to find drivers for, any old Mac packrats here? Sincs its from 1992 and not a common part I assume its ontopic to ask about it. From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sat Sep 3 00:03:36 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 00:03:36 -0500 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: <20050902182507.4d84d012.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200509030513.j835DcDq022867@keith.ezwind.net> IIRC, the first units I used were 200 bpi! The vacuum "columns" were instead "rows". They extended about a foot to either side of the heads. Gil > Also, it was only the NEWEST drive that had 6250 bpi. Mostly > we dealt with 800 and 1600 tapes, and with drives that had > switchable 7/9 track heads. I wouldn't call vacuum column > drives an icon of EARLY computers... > From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sat Sep 3 00:44:34 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 00:44:34 -0500 Subject: Diablo model 30 redux In-Reply-To: <7ba75a897d09dd29ce4d8ecfdceb939a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200509030554.j835sZgi023096@keith.ezwind.net> Not too long ago, but I may have sent them to the wrong list. Yes, I still have them all. I parted out about 7 units due to lack of space. I kept mostly the motors, head/positioning assembly, heads, etc., but I also have some sheet metal, plastic, etc. Let me know if you need something. I would swap a bunch of them for one Alto. Heck, maybe even for one working Diablo drive. ;) I am basically a software guy, so having a working unit would be important to me. I used to use a Four-Phase Systems mini & have a lot of tapes that might restore only to one of those units. Thanks, Gil We don't sing because we're happy - We're happy because we sing! mailto:gilcarrick at comcast.net? web page: http://goodtimeschorus.org/ Gil Carrick VP Chapter Development/ Webmaster 1012 Portofino Dr., Arlington, TX, 76012 817-274-2210 > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 10:56 AM > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Diablo model 30 redux > > > Remember those model 30 parts I was trying to give away/swap. > > When was this? Do you still have them? > > -al (who HAS an Alto, and a bunch of Diablo 30's) > From vcf at siconic.com Sat Sep 3 01:12:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 23:12:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QuantumLink RELOADED! In-Reply-To: <43152870.7080503@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Cool deal! This is a really neat restoration project. I just found a copy of AppleLink. I wonder if the protocol is compatible with QuantumLink? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Sep 3 01:17:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 23:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM S/36 5362 Needs a home Seattle area In-Reply-To: <083120050535.29956.4315418A00064AB10000750421603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 g-wright at att.net wrote: > Hi, Still doing some shop cleaning. > > IBM S/36 Model 5362 . looks complete , less Terminal. > This is a desk side system. looks to be in good condition. > Has not been tested or turned on. Has a 8" floppy and > hard drive. There are 2 manuals inside the case. > > This is quit heavy. local pick only. 75.00 > > Also, last call on these. They are on "Death Row" > > Grahman magnetics (Carlisle) "Inspector IV MPC" > Mag tape Evaluation system. > This is a Vacuum column Mag tape tester. has lots of LED's > and LED read outs . Quit a piece to watch run. Works. > > This is quit heavy. local pickup only. Free to a good home > > 4) DEC HSC systems. models 60 to 90. no hard drives > > These are quit heavy. local pick up only Free to a good home > > I'm located in Kent Wa. south of Seattle This message was quit (sic) painful to read. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Sep 3 01:27:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 23:27:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: <200509021633.JAA01420@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >Well, I can't be too annoyed since I'm the one that put them there :) But > >that was basically my point: without any real chance of getting a full > >system, what's the point of having them? You can get them running in a > >test mode and have a tape being de-spooled from one reel onto a take-up > >reel, but that's about it. > > > ---snip--- > > Hi > I see no reason one couldn't connect it to just about any machine. > Not an original configuration but still, a working setup. One > might even recover data from original tapes this way. >From what I understand, much easier said than done. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 3 03:31:19 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 04:31:19 -0400 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43195F57.nailCZW11NKU4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> William Donzelli wrote: > [on the subject of bus and tag electrical interface] > The drivers and receivers might be a little bit of a hassle, > unless some were chopped out of an existing IBM. My recollection, based on mid-70's TI databooks, is that the interface chips being sold for bus and tag are very similar to TTL open-collector drivers and stock TTL receivers (Schmitt triggers if you want). I will go look at the books and check again to see if it really is that simple :-). Tim. From tony.eros at machm.org Sat Sep 3 06:14:31 2005 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 07:14:31 -0400 Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: DEC Computer Lab In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050903111515.C6199589BD1@smtp02.dc2.safesecureweb.com> It would be great if we could get the Teacher's Guide scanned and into BitSavers... Al, have you ever seen one of these books? -- Tony -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of vrs Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 12:23 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: SPAM-LOW: Re: DEC Computer Lab I tried to send this off-list, but got an instant bounce: From: "Philippe Sonnet" > Dear Ashley, > > Yes, I have them. See > http://www.sonnet.be/dec/computerlab.htm > I can photocopy them for you, if you want. I'd also be interested in a copy of the "Computer Lab Teacher's Guide". (I have copies of the student workbook already.) Thanks, Vince From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sat Sep 3 07:11:46 2005 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 13:11:46 +0100 Subject: S/360 channel (was: Anybody live in Chile?) In-Reply-To: <43195F57.nailCZW11NKU4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <43195F57.nailCZW11NKU4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <1125749507.21477.10.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Sat, 2005-09-03 at 04:31 -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: > > [on the subject of bus and tag electrical interface] > > The drivers and receivers might be a little bit of a hassle, > > unless some were chopped out of an existing IBM. > > My recollection, based on mid-70's TI databooks, is that the interface > chips being sold for bus and tag are very similar to TTL open-collector > drivers and stock TTL receivers (Schmitt triggers if you want). > > I will go look at the books and check again to see if it really is that > simple :-). > > Tim. When I made up a channel adapter (that is, to connect to a CPU) I used TTL (probably LSTTL), with 374 Tristate Tx and 244 Rx. This worked, but maybe didn't meet the official spec. I think you can find a spec on Bitsavers, A22-6843-3. This gives >2.25V for 1 and <0.15V for 0. >From a higher-level perspective, the channel is not unlike SCSI. Making a channel which would work with a specific I/O device wouldn't be too difficult. I only ever implemented a multiplexor (byte-at-a-time) device for which the throughput requirements were not too severe. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Sep 3 07:55:58 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 08:55:58 -0400 Subject: VT220 symptom Message-ID: Hi, list, My VT220 went crazy yestoday. When I was doing something else on my PC, suddenly the VT220 monitor was blank (black) and the LEDs on the monitor flashed. The frequency was about 4 or 5 times a second. The keyboard LEDs (LK201) flashed the same speed as the monitor LED. Taking off the keyboard and the RS232 port did not solve the problem. Does anybody know what happened? Is there an easy way to fix the problem? Thanks. vax, 9000 From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 3 08:13:50 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 09:13:50 -0400 Subject: VT220 symptom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4319A18E.nailF3U17GS71@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > [VT220 on the blink] > Does anybody know what happened? This is a fairly common symptom of power supply failure. Sometimes this kind of failure is intermittent (meaning, if you slap the box around some it might start working again. If you've got some frustration to vent you can just slap it around until it's a pile of plastic, PCB, and glass...) Tim. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Sep 3 08:58:28 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 06:58:28 -0700 Subject: Heads Up for Seattle area collectors In-Reply-To: <20050902194004.O5761@racsys.rachors.com> References: <200509021806060444.13EB8849@192.168.42.129> <20050902194004.O5761@racsys.rachors.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90509030658160c103d@mail.gmail.com> On 9/2/05, George L. Rachor Jr. wrote: > What are the hours for that place... > > No I don't need the tape drive... but I've always wanted to stop by that > place. > > George Don't drive there today! http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/surplus/retail/index.html 20651 84th Ave S. Kent Washington Store Hours: Wed: 11 am - 5 pm * Thur: 11 am - 5 pm * Fri: 11 am - 5 pm * Sat: 9 am - 4 pm * The Boeing Surplus Store will be closed Saturday September 3rd in observance of the Labor Day holiday and will resume normal operations Wednesday September 7th at 11:00 am. From brain at jbrain.com Sat Sep 3 09:07:43 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 09:07:43 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink RELOADED! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4319AE2F.6010702@jbrain.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Cool deal! This is a really neat restoration project. > >I just found a copy of AppleLink. I wonder if the protocol is compatible >with QuantumLink? > > > Go ahead and try it. It should not hurt the server. If you do, tell me the times you did, so I can check the logs. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat Sep 3 10:23:40 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 08:23:40 -0700 Subject: DEC Computer Lab Message-ID: <000801c5b09b$7cdb3f50$0300a8c0@downstairs2> I assume Don Lancaster got the idea for this Digital Logic MicroLab from the DEC Computer Lab. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Apr1970/PE_Apr1970.htm This training aid used the RTL Cookbook as a guide. What was the year of the DEC Lab? Michael Holley > From: "Philippe Sonnet" > Subject: Re: DEC Computer Lab > http://www.sonnet.be/dec/computerlab.htm From wacarder at earthlink.net Sat Sep 3 10:29:04 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 11:29:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: DEC Computer Lab Message-ID: <17455018.1125761345415.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > I assume Don Lancaster got the idea for this Digital Logic MicroLab from the > DEC Computer Lab. > > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Apr1970/PE_Apr1970.htm > > This training aid used the RTL Cookbook as a guide. What was the year of the > DEC Lab? > > Michael Holley I believe the DEC Computer Labs date from about 1969. Ashley From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Sep 3 11:11:35 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 09:11:35 -0700 Subject: S/36 Message-ID: Don't know much about these things, but Jerry has one in Kent. I know that they take SSP O/S and 3270? Twinax terminals, but I'm fishing for more information. Is this like the AS/400, where if it doesn't come with an OS and firmware disk it's toast, or is it a bit more forgiving? What sort of drives does it take? (ST-506, ESDI, proprietary?) Is it 220v only? any other weirdness? (Full disclosure- my only experience with "real IBMs" is the RS/6000) Scott From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 3 11:18:46 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 09:18:46 -0700 Subject: S/360 channel (was: Anybody live in Chile?) Message-ID: <873c53e4b35b8d13159c0075dc0bee96@bitsavers.org> > Well, there's another project for someone into such: a generalised 'IBM 360/370 > Style I/O Channel' adapter/interface to something modern/common. funasset.com built a box to go from a channel to a pc (mid 90's) I have the external box, there apparently was a card as well with a 37 pin connector that went in the pc they used TI 751730 interface chips DEC built 6' rack sized interfaces for the 10 and 11 to talk to a channel in the 70's (the DX-10 and DX-11) From brian at quarterbyte.com Sat Sep 3 13:23:54 2005 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 11:23:54 -0700 Subject: S/360 channel (was: Anybody live in Chile? Message-ID: <431987CA.28293.6DE89823@localhost> > Well, there's another project for someone into such: a generalised > IBM 360/370 Style I/O Channel' adapter/interface > to something modern/common. This is the at top of my list. It's going to be a USB-2 channel driver (talks to peripherals). Have the design done but have't started building it. Immediate goal is testing of channel interfaced devices to help cull the collection of big iron, secondary goal is operation of the devices from Hercules. Speaking of USB-to-X interfaces, where X is pecular, thanks, Sellam for the plug for my USB-to-Documation interface. I'm thinking of building two more copies, another for me and another for the museum. Is anyone else interested in one? If so I'll do up a PC board instead of wire-wrapping, and we can share the production cost. Let me know by private email. PS - APL\1130 was mentioned recently. We have the source on punched cards. I've read it in but there were a couple of errors which is why it's not published on ibm1130.org yet. Also, it appears to have been modified (slightly) to run on the IBM 1800. brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel _| _| _| Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 _| _| _| Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian at quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From kth at srv.net Sat Sep 3 13:29:37 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 12:29:37 -0600 Subject: VT220 symptom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4319EB91.4020704@srv.net> 9000 VAX wrote: >Hi, list, > My VT220 went crazy yestoday. When I was doing something else on my >PC, suddenly the VT220 monitor was blank (black) and the LEDs on the >monitor flashed. The frequency was about 4 or 5 times a second. The >keyboard LEDs (LK201) flashed the same speed as the monitor LED. >Taking off the keyboard and the RS232 port did not solve the problem. >Does anybody know what happened? Is there an easy way to fix the >problem? Thanks. > > Most likely problem: your flyback shorted out. DEC used lousy flyback transformers, and they were always my biggest problem with all the VT terminals. They would short out (cracking the ceramic shell and oozing black goo that would then harden), and often taking out a driver transister too. You can repair this problem with a new flyback (probably going to be hard to find), and a new transister. Been there, done that (many times), got the T-shirt. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Sep 3 15:44:49 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 15:44:49 Subject: DEC Computer Lab Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050903154449.40374902@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:29 AM 9/3/05 -0400, you wrote: >> I assume Don Lancaster got the idea for this Digital Logic MicroLab from the >> DEC Computer Lab. >> >> http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Apr1970/PE_Apr1970.htm >> >> This training aid used the RTL Cookbook as a guide. What was the year of the >> DEC Lab? >> >> Michael Holley > >I believe the DEC Computer Labs date from about 1969. IIRC I used to have a 1968 DEC Handbook that showed it. I can't remember what I did with the book. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Sep 3 15:51:18 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 15:51:18 Subject: Warning Humor! Tech Support! Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050903155118.331fd7f6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I got this in an E-mail and it was just too good not to pass on! Joe > Mujibar was trying to get into the USA legally through Immigration. > > The Officer said, "Mujibar, you have passed all the tests, except there is > one more test. Unless you pass it, you cannot enter the United States of > America." > > Mujibar said, "I am ready." > > The officer said, "Make a sentence using the words Yellow, Pink and Green." > > Mujibar thought for a few minutes and said, "Mister Officer, I am ready." > > The Officer said, "Go ahead." > > Mujibar said, "The telephone goes green, green, green, and I pink it up, and > say, 'Yellow, this is Mujibar.'" > > Mujibar now lives in a neighborhood near you and works at a Verizon help > desk. I talked to him yesterday. > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Sep 3 15:47:49 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 15:47:49 Subject: Intel MDS Series II IOC question In-Reply-To: References: <20050901130640.S99592@racsys.rachors.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050903154749.11af23f2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:27 AM 9/3/05 +0100, Tony wrote: >> >> Greetings Dave, >> >> >> all say to replace the IOC if the 5 beeps test fails. The manual called: > >Darn board-swapper guides... > But if they didn't tell you that then haven't to tell you how to fix the IOC board and provide schematics, etc. So telling you to replace the board is an easy out for the manufacturer. Plus selling you a new board makes them $$$. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Sep 3 15:59:22 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 15:59:22 Subject: Mass Memory Unit from Space Shuttle Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050903155922.32d7abbe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I found a pile of these things this morning. They are made by Odetics in Anaheim Ca. After I got home with them I realized that they are for the space shuttle. Does anyone know anything about them? I THINK they use a tape drive inside. I haven't opened one up yet but I saw the remains of a tape drive at the same place and I think it was the guts out of one of these. Joe From dmabry at mich.com Sat Sep 3 15:19:58 2005 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 16:19:58 -0400 Subject: Intel MDS Series II IOC question In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050903154749.11af23f2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <20050901130640.S99592@racsys.rachors.com> <3.0.6.16.20050903154749.11af23f2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <431A056E.1080208@mich.com> Joe R. wrote: >At 12:27 AM 9/3/05 +0100, Tony wrote: > > >>>Greetings Dave, >>> >>> >>>all say to replace the IOC if the 5 beeps test fails. The manual called: >>> >>> >>Darn board-swapper guides... >> >> >> > But if they didn't tell you that then haven't to tell you how to fix the >IOC board and provide schematics, etc. So telling you to replace the board >is an easy out for the manufacturer. Plus selling you a new board makes >them $$$. > > Joe > > > Now Joe, Don't be so cynical! ;) You know that Intel provided some of the best documentation of anyone in those days. I just don't happen to have the right manual that describes that diagnostic. I believe it existed but was mainly for the repair techs. I have lots of good docs, as you well know, and as you do also, but it seems that we might both be lacking the particular one I need. I was able to get in touch with one of my old buddies who was an Intel repair tech. He said that at one time he had the source code for the firmware in that IOC board. Boy! I would like to have a copy of that, but he didn't keep it and is retired. Unlike me, he HAS a life and enjoys other things, so he got a kick out of my struggles with this IOC. BTW, I have managed to disassemble a good portion of the 1.3 version of the firmware (not the newest, but something that I started disassembling many years ago) and figured out some of the beep codes. Beep 1 and Beep 2 happen after checksumming the EPROMs. The pause next is a RAM test. It has 2108's, eight of them, so that is...a whopping 8k bytes I think! It takes a 2.4MHz 8080 a little time to cycle through them. The third beep signifies that the RAM test was successful. Next is still kind of fuzzy. It looks like it starts using a real stack, since the ram is good, and then initializes the CRT controller chip. It looks like it needs to see some kind of status returned from it to continue. There are at least three places that it can halt before the next beep, and the 8275 CRT controller is one of them. So that may be my problem. Now I'm looking for an 8275 chip. Can't find one just yet, but I just started looking. I might have to disect a working MDS to swap some chips. BTW, the one white MDS I got from you that didn't work...well, the IOC was totally dead on it. Based on this work on the disassembly I determined that the first beep can also fail to happen if the 8253 counter/timer chip isn't working. That is one of the signals that gates the beeper "on". I replaced that chip on the IOC from that machine and now it gives me three beeps, just like the one that started this whole journey. Interesting, at least to a nerd like me. Well, more to come, I hope. What a way to spend a long holiday weekend! At least it doesn't cost me any gasoline to do this!!! Take care, and I'll keep the list posted if there is anyone interested. Dave From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Sep 3 15:31:44 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 16:31:44 -0400 Subject: VT220 symptom In-Reply-To: <4319EB91.4020704@srv.net> References: <4319EB91.4020704@srv.net> Message-ID: > Most likely problem: your flyback shorted out. > > DEC used lousy flyback transformers, and they were always my > biggest problem with all the VT terminals. They would short > out (cracking the ceramic shell and oozing black goo that would > then harden), and often taking out a driver transister too. > > You can repair this problem with a new flyback (probably > going to be hard to find), and a new transister. Been there, > done that (many times), got the T-shirt. Thank you. Maybe it is easier to buy another VT220 for $5. I will leave the faulty one alone for a while. vax, 9000 From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 3 15:41:18 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 16:41:18 -0400 Subject: VT220 symptom In-Reply-To: References: <4319EB91.4020704@srv.net> Message-ID: <431A0A6E.nailIOE1Y335G@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Maybe it is easier to buy another VT220 for $5. Typical costs for a flyback for a small monochrome terminal range from $35 (used pull) to $60 (from a TV-parts distributor). If you find another VT220 with a good flyback but a weak CRT it's fairly easy to swap CRT's or flybacks around in the "take two bad VT220's make one good one" tradition. Tim. From allain at panix.com Sat Sep 3 17:18:16 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 18:18:16 -0400 Subject: DEC Computer Lab References: <17455018.1125761345415.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003701c5b0d5$62a60fe0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I assume Don Lancaster got the idea for this > Digital Logic MicroLab from the DEC Computer Lab. Someone had to invent logic symbols (the iconography painted on the front). Any chance it was DEC? A look to 1957 seems to not show the common symbology, so its possible they were not ported from MIT... > What was the year of the DEC Lab? The LAB-8 supposedly came out in 1968. It's possible a simpler version was earlier. John A. From wacarder at earthlink.net Sat Sep 3 17:40:23 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 18:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC Computer Lab Message-ID: <20674333.1125787223327.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >>> I assume Don Lancaster got the idea for this Digital Logic MicroLab from >>> the DEC Computer Lab. >>> >>> http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Apr1970/PE_Apr1970.htm >>> >>> This training aid used the RTL Cookbook as a guide. What was the year of >>> the DEC Lab? >>> >>> Michael Holley >> >>I believe the DEC Computer Labs date from about 1969. > > IIRC I used to have a 1968 DEC Handbook that showed it. I can't remember > what I did with the book. > > Joe I just looked in the DEC Computer Lab Workbook and it says Copyright 1968. Ashley From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Sep 3 18:03:03 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 00:03:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Warning Humor! Tech Support! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050903155118.331fd7f6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050903155118.331fd7f6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1569.192.168.0.5.1125788583.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > I got this in an E-mail and it was just too good not to pass on! > > Joe > > > >> Mujibar was trying to get into the USA legally through Immigration. >> This side of the pond he works for British Gas and/or Telecom :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 3 17:38:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 23:38:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Intel MDS Series II IOC question In-Reply-To: <20050902203358.012820e2.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Sep 2, 5 08:33:58 pm Message-ID: > > > My first thought is SCANBE. > > > My second thought is SCANBE. > > > My third thought is... can you guess? > > > > I assume these are cheap and useless IC sockets..... > > > > Somehow I had guessed for authenticity purposes, you would be > campaigning for people to _preserve_ these sockets. Nightmare-grade > unreliable sockets are part of the history of the particular machines > they were installed in. My policy on repair/restoration has not changed since the last time we had this 'discussion' on the list.... A classic computer should, if at all possible, be got working. The use of a computer system is to run programs. If it doesn't work, it's just a metal box with some chips in it. However, you should replace as little as possible to get it working. This means replacing simple componnts, not whole boards. It also means not replacing things _unnecessarily_. The electronic design of the machine should be unchanged. In particular, replacing the guts of a classic computer with a PC running an emulator is not 'restoration' (this does not mean emulators don't have a use in preserving classic computers and their software, it just means that an emulator is _NOT_ the classic computer). Now, as a hardware person, I would claim the electronic design goes way beyond the design of the CPU, It includes the peripherals, and the PSUs. BUT, I don't have any problem at all with designing plug-in interfaces for classics to modern peripherals (doing that does not in any way damage the rest of the machine). In the case of PSUs, I'd rather they were kept original. If you haev to replace a linear PSU with an SMPSU to save electricity, then IMHO the original linera PSU should be kept with the machine (and preferably left in place, with the SMPSU hung off the back of the rack!). I would also do small modifications to improver perfomance or reliabilty. I have no problem with filling up a half-stuffed memory board, for example. I certainly have no problem with replacing cheap IC sockets with turned-pin. If I desolder a programmed chip to dump the contents, I often (but not always...) put it back in a socket, and if I do that, I always use a turned-pin one. There you are. My $0.02's worth. > > > > This reminds me of my Whitechapel MG1. The 'expensive' devices, CPU > > (32016), FPU (32081), I/O processor (68121 IIRC), etc were all in > > turned-pin sockets. The EPROMs were in cheap-n-nasty sockets. > > Replacing the latter with turned-pin so;ved a lot of problems... > > > > I guess you don't view it as an issue. Were machine-pin sockets even > _available_ when some of the early machines were produced? Probably not. But then neither was 74F-series, and I've used those to replace 74S in classics. I'd rather use the right part, but if you can't get it.... In the case of a rare machine, you should keep a record of all the work you've done, of course. If the service manual is in a looseleaf binder, I put an extra page in the back with the modifications detailed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 3 17:44:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 23:44:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT220 symptom In-Reply-To: from "9000 VAX" at Sep 3, 5 08:55:58 am Message-ID: > > Hi, list, > My VT220 went crazy yestoday. When I was doing something else on my > PC, suddenly the VT220 monitor was blank (black) and the LEDs on the > monitor flashed. The frequency was about 4 or 5 times a second. The > keyboard LEDs (LK201) flashed the same speed as the monitor LED. > Taking off the keyboard and the RS232 port did not solve the problem. > Does anybody know what happened? Is there an easy way to fix the > problem? Thanks. OK, your PSU is tripping. It's trying to start up, then shutting down because it detects an overcurrent, then trying again. I didn't think the VT220 PSU did this (it's not a mains-side switcher). The VT320 certainly will (can I just check you are talking about the 220). The fact that the LEDs come on suggests the problem is not on the 5V line, since that must be coming up to power said LEDs. Most likely, and it's a total guess without seeing the termianl, you've got problems in the line output stage (horizontal output stage to you, I guess). Either the transistor has shorted, or the (flyback) transformer has failed, possibly taking the transistor with it. Seen it happen far too often on the VT320... Start by pulling the case, finding the flyback transformer, and finding a power transistor with the collector connected to one of the transformer pins. That's 99% likely to be the line output transistor. Desolder it and check it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 3 17:55:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 23:55:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Intel MDS Series II IOC question In-Reply-To: <431A056E.1080208@mich.com> from "Dave Mabry" at Sep 3, 5 04:19:58 pm Message-ID: > >>Darn board-swapper guides... > >> > >> > >> > > But if they didn't tell you that then haven't to tell you how to fix the > >IOC board and provide schematics, etc. So telling you to replace the board > >is an easy out for the manufacturer. Plus selling you a new board makes > >them $$$. > > > > Joe > > > > > > > Now Joe, > > Don't be so cynical! ;) > > You know that Intel provided some of the best documentation of anyone in > those days. I just don't happen to have the right manual that describes It was certainkly very good (I have the MDS800 docuemntation, it includes full schematics, and theory-of-operation, but I didn't get any firmware sources. THey may have been available, though). > but he didn't keep it and is retired. Unlike me, he HAS a life and > enjoys other things, so he got a kick out of my struggles with this IOC. What's a 'life'? > > BTW, I have managed to disassemble a good portion of the 1.3 version of > the firmware (not the newest, but something that I started disassembling > many years ago) and figured out some of the beep codes. > > Beep 1 and Beep 2 happen after checksumming the EPROMs. Seems reasonable. > > The pause next is a RAM test. It has 2108's, eight of them, so that > is...a whopping 8k bytes I think! It takes a 2.4MHz 8080 a little time > to cycle through them. > > The third beep signifies that the RAM test was successful. > > Next is still kind of fuzzy. It looks like it starts using a real > stack, since the ram is good, and then initializes the CRT controller > chip. It looks like it needs to see some kind of status returned from > it to continue. There are at least three places that it can halt before > the next beep, and the 8275 CRT controller is one of them. Do you have a logic analyser? If so, can you get it to grab the address when it halts? That would at least tell you which halt it was getting to, and then you could trane back to see what could have caused it. Another trick I used once.... Make a 16 bit comparator (a couple of '688s or something). One set of inputs to the CPU address bus, the other to DIP swithces and pull-up resistors. The output of the compatator to a logic probe (or monostable [1] + LED). Presumably there's a conditional branch that sends the CPU to the halt, or a conditional branch that keeps it looping waiting for the right status, or something like that. Set the DIP swtiches to the address just past that branch -- i.e. where the CPU would get to if the test is sucessful. See if the CPU ever gets there. [1] I know I've complained about the _misuse_ of monostables in the past. IMHO driving an LED is not misuse. > Take care, and I'll keep the list posted if there is anyone interested. I am certainly interested, even though I don't have one of these machines. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Sep 3 20:09:23 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 21:09:23 -0400 Subject: S/36 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <431A4943.8080207@gmail.com> Scott Quinn wrote: > Don't know much about these things, but Jerry has one in Kent. I know > that they take SSP O/S and 3270? Twinax terminals, but I'm fishing for > more information. Is this like the AS/400, where if it doesn't come with > an OS and firmware disk it's toast, or is it a bit more forgiving? What > sort of drives does it take? (ST-506, ESDI, proprietary?) Is it 220v > only? any other weirdness? (Full disclosure- my only experience with > "real IBMs" is the RS/6000) > > Scott > > If it's twinax, it should be 5250. 3270's are coax, AFAIK. Peace... Sridhar From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Sep 3 20:14:18 2005 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 21:14:18 -0400 Subject: Which version is it, Altair 680 or 680b ? Message-ID: <431A4A6A.8010606@comcast.net> Well, I have the 680(b) all disassembled now. I noticed a few things while I was taking this apart. Since the logo silkscreen is gone, I'm still trying to determine the model of this machine. My brother was trying some modifications that I didn't know about back then. So I have to try to revert the machine back to it's original state. The serial plate didn't survive the fossilization over the years(it's gone), so I can't determine what serial number for this. I still couldn't determine if this was a 680 or 680b from the looking at the manual. When I was looking online, I found some references to S-100 boards that supposedly were made to plug into the 680b. But there's no place to plug in S-100 boards in this version that I have. here --->http://www.virtualaltair.com/virtualaltair.com/vac_boards.asp One thing I noticed after I took this part, the mainboard actually says this MITS 1976 680 MAINBOARD REV 1-6x I hope somebody might be able to help identify this model. I'm thinking this is actually a 680 and not a 680b, am I right ? =Dan -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/] [Pittsburgh Robotics Society http://www.pghrobotics.org/] [Pittsburgh Vintage Comp.Society http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/] [Hurricane-Help contact our relatives http://www.familylinks.icrc.org/katrina/] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/86 - Release Date: 8/31/2005 From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Sep 3 21:08:02 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 22:08:02 -0400 Subject: S/360 channel (was: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 03 Sep 2005 11:23:54 PDT." <431987CA.28293.6DE89823@localhost> Message-ID: <200509040208.j84283mh005608@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Brian Knittel" wrote: > >PS - APL\1130 was mentioned recently. We have the source >on punched cards. I've read it in but there were a couple of errors >which is why it's not published on ibm1130.org yet. Also, it appears >to have been modified (slightly) to run on the IBM 1800. The listing I read (oh so long ago, in a reading room at Carleton College in chilly Minnesota) made it look like it was originally written for the 1800 and backported (or so I recall). I do remember that the code looked like it could be assembled to run on either. I was just looking for magic I bar functions at the time. -brad From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 3 21:10:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 03:10:18 +0100 Subject: Warning Humor! Tech Support! In-Reply-To: <1569.192.168.0.5.1125788583.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <3.0.6.16.20050903155118.331fd7f6@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1569.192.168.0.5.1125788583.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <431A578A.80705@yahoo.co.uk> Witchy wrote: >> I got this in an E-mail and it was just too good not to pass on! >> >> Joe >> >>>Mujibar was trying to get into the USA legally through Immigration. > > This side of the pond he works for British Gas and/or Telecom :) Certainly not NTL anyway - they don't employ enough human beings for you to get through on their support helpline within one lifetime... From john at guntersville.net Sat Sep 3 21:39:28 2005 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 21:39:28 -0500 Subject: Mass Memory Unit from Space Shuttle References: <3.0.6.16.20050903155922.32d7abbe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <431A5E60.ED0E7F00@guntersville.net> "Joe R." wrote: > > I found a pile of these things this morning. They are made by Odetics > in Anaheim Ca. After I got home with them I realized that they are for the > space shuttle. Does anyone know anything about them? I THINK they use a > tape drive inside. I haven't opened one up yet but I saw the remains of a > tape drive at the same place and I think it was the guts out of one of these. > > Joe I'm not sure about how many the shuttle used but there is one on each solid rocket booster. The had two tape reels stacked on top of each other. The control signals are 5V logic and power is probably 24V DC. I try to locate a contact to get some data in them. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 3 21:48:23 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 19:48:23 -0700 Subject: Mass Memory Unit from Space Shuttle In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050903155922.32d7abbe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050903155922.32d7abbe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > I found a pile of these things this morning. They are made by Odetics >in Anaheim Ca. After I got home with them I realized that they are for the >space shuttle. Does anyone know anything about them? I THINK they use a >tape drive inside. I haven't opened one up yet but I saw the remains of a >tape drive at the same place and I think it was the guts out of one of these. > > Joe Any chance of getting a photo up? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sat Sep 3 22:06:28 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 22:06:28 -0500 Subject: S/36 In-Reply-To: <431A4943.8080207@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200509040316.j843GTBq031409@keith.ezwind.net> > If it's twinax, it should be 5250. 3270's are coax, AFAIK. > > Peace... Sridhar Absolutely, though there were many different models under each of these general categories. There are emulation products (hardware and software together) and protocol converter boxes (gateways) that will allow you to use a PC for the CRT or a cheap printer for the printer terminals. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From dmabry at mich.com Sat Sep 3 23:30:58 2005 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 00:30:58 -0400 Subject: Intel MDS Series II IOC question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <431A7882.5060404@mich.com> Tony Duell wrote: >I am certainly interested, even though I don't have one of these machines. > >-tony > > > > Today in a failed attempt to repair the IOC board, I resurrected some ancient hardware. The IOC board is the back panel board on an Intel MDS Series II that handles most of the I/O of the system. It does a lot! It is based on a 2.4MHz 8080A cpu. Well, I broke out an Intel ICE-80 and hooked it up. This is the first In-circuit emulator that I know of, perhaps the first ever. It is quite primitive, but it can do a lot in the hands of a skilled operator. If I ever find such an operator, maybe I will be able to fix this damned IOC board!!! One of the problems I encountered with the emulator is because the RAM in the target system is dynamic. I think that when the emulation "breaks" from a breakpoint it seems that the RAM loses its contents. Perhaps the refresh circuitry relys on a clocking cpu. But it does look like I get inconsistent results reading the ROM on the IOC board. So I will now look at the buffer chips and maybe the address decoding. I tried to map the execution memory to the host MDS (that is the machine that is hosting the ICE-80), but since that slows execution and there are some software timing loops that didn't work very well. I am making progress, slowly. And putting two of these beasts together (one working one for the ICE-80 host, and the "target" system that needs to be fixed) isn't trivial. They weigh about 100 pounds each!!! It was a comical scene, though, with two MDS Series II systems side by side. I thought my table was going to colapse and the lights dimmed when I turned them on. ;) Stay tuned...I have some more disassembling to do. Dave From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Sep 4 00:31:24 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 22:31:24 -0700 Subject: S/360 channel References: <431987CA.28293.6DE89823@localhost> Message-ID: <431A869D.8530A5A@cs.ubc.ca> Brian Knittel wrote: > > This is the at top of my list. It's going to be a USB-2 channel > driver (talks to peripherals). Have the design done but have't > started building it. Immediate goal is testing of channel interfaced > devices to help cull the collection of big iron, secondary goal is > operation of the devices from Hercules. So if, for example, Sellam had one of these interfaces, would it be near to 'plug-and-go' for his 3803-controller/3420-drives combination, or would their be a lot of 3803-specific software-driver development on the modern-host side (and requiring the acquisition of 100 lbs. of 3803 manuals) ? In other words, is the 'channel-command-set-protocol' (for lack of accurate terminology) fairly generic for such tape controllers or very controller-specific? (and device-specific cables/plugs?, or are channel plugs/pinouts somewhat generic?) From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Sep 4 07:45:20 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 07:45:20 Subject: Intel MDS Series II IOC question In-Reply-To: <431A7882.5060404@mich.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050904074520.197f4e94@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:30 AM 9/4/05 -0400, you wrote: >Tony Duell wrote: > >>I am certainly interested, even though I don't have one of these machines. >> >>-tony >> >> >> >> >Today in a failed attempt to repair the IOC board, I resurrected some >ancient hardware. The IOC board is the back panel board on an Intel MDS >Series II that handles most of the I/O of the system. It does a lot! >It is based on a 2.4MHz 8080A cpu. > >Well, I broke out an Intel ICE-80 and hooked it up. This is the first >In-circuit emulator that I know of, perhaps the first ever. It is quite >primitive, but it can do a lot in the hands of a skilled operator. If I >ever find such an operator, maybe I will be able to fix this damned IOC >board!!! > >One of the problems I encountered with the emulator is because the RAM >in the target system is dynamic. I think that when the emulation >"breaks" from a breakpoint it seems that the RAM loses its contents. >Perhaps the refresh circuitry relys on a clocking cpu. But it does look >like I get inconsistent results reading the ROM on the IOC board. So I >will now look at the buffer chips and maybe the address decoding. I >tried to map the execution memory to the host MDS (that is the machine >that is hosting the ICE-80), but since that slows execution and there >are some software timing loops that didn't work very well. > >I am making progress, slowly. And putting two of these beasts together >(one working one for the ICE-80 host, and the "target" system that needs >to be fixed) isn't trivial. They weigh about 100 pounds each!!! > >It was a comical scene, though, with two MDS Series II systems side by >side. I thought my table was going to colapse and the lights dimmed >when I turned them on. ;) Only someone that's actually handled one of this beast knows how true that is :-/ Do you have one of the Fluke 9010 MicroTroubleShooters? They should be just the thing for working on the IOC board. With it you can create a memory map of the IOC, test the RAM, dump the EPROM contents, set breakpoints, run it on the IOC's CPU or the 9010's CPU, test all of the data and address lines and more. The best part is that all you have to do to connect it is to plug it's cable into the IOC's CPU socket and place the CPU in the test pod. Joe > >Stay tuned...I have some more disassembling to do. > >Dave > > > > From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Sep 4 12:10:29 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 13:10:29 -0400 Subject: Intel MDS Series II IOC question In-Reply-To: <200509041700.j84H0ahG037518@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200509041710.j84HAMYG009193@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: " Were machine-pin sockets even _available_ when some of the early machines were produced?" Yes; Augat sockets were available in 1976 for sure, if not earlier. From brian at quarterbyte.com Sun Sep 4 12:42:08 2005 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 10:42:08 -0700 Subject: S/360 channel Message-ID: <431ACF80.6083.72E8B7CF@localhost> > ... would it be near to 'plug-and-go' for his > 3803-controller/3420-drives combination, or would their be a lot > of 3803-specific software-driver development on the modern-host > side (and requiring the acquisition of 100 lbs. of 3803 manuals) ? Pretty much plug and go. It's very much like a SCSI interface. Each device has a set of commands documented in its Functional Characteristics manual: read, write, get status, etc. You'd find this in the device's documentation (e.g. 3420) rather than the controller's (3803). The commands do follow a common pattern although there are some variations between devices. The Bus and Tag protocol communicates these commands from the channel (the interface in the CPU) to the device controller, and returns the results. There are several different transfer modes (byte at a time, burst, etc), different ways that the device can signal the CPU for attention, and various ways that either the channel, the controller or the device can say "hang on, I can't do that right now," so it's fairly complex. The logic frames for a typical channel interface built with 1960s vintage SLT are about the same size as the IBM 1130's CPU, for example. I suspect that data buffers (RAM) are a significant part of that. But from the programmer's standpoint, it's very simple. An IO command points to a "channel program" which is usually just a device command word and a data transfer address. The channel takes it from there, and an interrupt is issued when the operation is complete (usually). Channel to controller cabling is standardized, two thick cables. Controller to device cabling is device specific. Some devices have an integral controller. brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel _| _| _| Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 _| _| _| Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian at quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From kth at srv.net Sun Sep 4 13:12:47 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 12:12:47 -0600 Subject: VT220 symptom In-Reply-To: <431A0A6E.nailIOE1Y335G@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <4319EB91.4020704@srv.net> <431A0A6E.nailIOE1Y335G@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <431B391F.3060501@srv.net> Tim Shoppa wrote: >Typical costs for a flyback for a small monochrome terminal range >from $35 (used pull) to $60 (from a TV-parts distributor). > >If you find another VT220 with a good flyback but a weak CRT it's >fairly easy to swap CRT's or flybacks around in the "take two bad >VT220's make one good one" tradition. > > > Instead of swapping the flyback, just swap the whole circuit board. Unless there are other faults on the one with the good flyback. I've Frankenstined many VT220's and 320's, and it was usually at the board swap level. I usually had many more "dead" units to work from than I needed live ones. Customers switched to PC units (with ckermit), and I don't think I have any VT units in the field any more. >Tim. > > > From cannings at earthlink.net Sun Sep 4 14:44:55 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 12:44:55 -0700 Subject: Mass Memory Unit from Space Shuttle References: <3.0.6.16.20050903155922.32d7abbe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <000701c5b189$20d23490$6401a8c0@hal9000> Joe, I worked for Odetics for many years in Anaheim ( Odetics Spacebourne Division ). We built two different units for the shuttle. One of them was the size of a very large black shoe box, and provided memory for the five IBM main computers. The larger unit ( about the size of a pregnant LP size laser disk player ) contained a 28 track ( re-configurable as analog or digital on ANY track ) that was used to record telemetry and info from a ton of transducers throughout the shuttle. Both units contained an extremely rugged propriety tape drive system ( you will notice the reels are on top of each other and counter rotate ). Figure out which ones you have and I'll get all the poop I can for you. Interested in parting with one ? Best regards, Steven Canning ( former systems design engr Odetics, Inc then Hughes Aircraft ) > I found a pile of these things this morning. They are made by Odetics >in Anaheim Ca. After I got home with them I realized that they are for the >space shuttle. Does anyone know anything about them? I THINK they use a >tape drive inside. I haven't opened one up yet but I saw the remains of a >tape drive at the same place and I think it was the guts out of one of these. > > Joe From tony.eros at machm.org Sun Sep 4 15:28:49 2005 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 16:28:49 -0400 Subject: SPAM-LOW: Mass Memory Unit from Space Shuttle In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050903155922.32d7abbe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050904202930.F318E380A8@smtp01.dc2.safesecureweb.com> Joe - I suspect you're inundated with requests, but just in case, would you be willing to part with one of the pile you found? Thanks! -- Tony -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joe R. Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 3:59 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: SPAM-LOW: Mass Memory Unit from Space Shuttle I found a pile of these things this morning. They are made by Odetics in Anaheim Ca. After I got home with them I realized that they are for the space shuttle. Does anyone know anything about them? I THINK they use a tape drive inside. I haven't opened one up yet but I saw the remains of a tape drive at the same place and I think it was the guts out of one of these. Joe From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Sep 4 15:38:15 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 15:38:15 -0500 Subject: classiccmp bandwidth Message-ID: <000b01c5b190$940d6540$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> If someone wants a large number of files that are hosted by the classiccmp server... I'd really appreciate it if you'd let me send you a CD instead of you spending days on a high bandwidth connection sucking them all down. Bandwidth limits are now in place because of some jerk. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Sep 4 16:02:41 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 16:02:41 -0500 Subject: Available: PDP11 system + disks, crt's, la120's, etc. Message-ID: <002301c5b193$fd5f3070$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> An unknown PDP-11 system is available in Canada, PQ, Montreal. The description I received was: ------ I have a PDP11 system to sell with 3 unit of disk RL02 + a dozen of disks.of 10 megs. and 2 or 3 VT-100 terminals, plus 2 printers LA120 --------- My impression was it won't be free, but possibly reasonable. I suspect people would be more interested in the software on the disks than anything else. I contacted the person back and they said it was either an 11/23 or 11/44, they weren't sure. I'll take a couple days of responses (off-list), then pick one at random and pass the deal on. Jay From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Sep 4 21:41:03 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 22:41:03 -0400 Subject: Available: PDP11 system + disks, crt's, la120's, etc. In-Reply-To: <002301c5b193$fd5f3070$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <002301c5b193$fd5f3070$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <431BB03F.7090408@compsys.to> Hi Jay, These days my problem is more to dispose of the same type of hardware, so I definitely do not want any more. However, I am always interested in more RT-11 software, especially distributions. Even if they are duplicates, they can be used to verify existing copies! I have been a bit busy of late attempting to clear the mess in the house PLUS looking a calculations for PRIME numbers. While really big numbers are not required, 32 bit integers are not at all sufficient and even 56 bit floating point are not able to handle the calculations. What are really needed are 256 bit floating point numbers, although 128 bits for the integers and 64 bits for the fraction would probably be sufficient. At this point, I am in the midst of writing the subroutines myself. I posted an inquiry recently about that problem and the responses were appreciated, but did not provide what is needed. For the integer subroutines: DFLOTL - converts INTEGER * 16 to REAL * 8 LIDINT - convert REAL * 8 to INTEGER * 16 LICLR - clears an INTEGER * 16 LIINC - increments an INTEGER * 16 LIADLI - adds INTEGER * 16 to INTEGER * 16 LIMVLI - moves and INTEGER * 16 to INTEGER * 16 ENLI - encodes an INTEGER * 16 into CHARACTER * 40 I will probably also be using LD type of routines where the L is for the 128 bit INTEGER * 16 portion and the D is at least 64 bits (or REAL * 8) of fraction for a combined total of 192 bits. But more likely at least 128 bits of fraction will be needed - maybe use the letter C? If I find I require: LIMULI - multiplies INTEGER * 16 by INTEGER * 16 LIDILI - divides INTEGER * 16 by INTEGER * 16 If anyone has any suggestions, they would be appreciated! >Jay West wrote: > An unknown PDP-11 system is available in Canada, PQ, Montreal. > > The description I received was: > ------ > I have a PDP11 system to sell with 3 unit of disk RL02 + a dozen of > disks.of 10 megs. > and 2 or 3 VT-100 terminals, plus 2 printers LA120 > --------- > > My impression was it won't be free, but possibly reasonable. I suspect > people would be more interested in the software on the disks than > anything else. > > I contacted the person back and they said it was either an 11/23 or > 11/44, they weren't sure. > > I'll take a couple days of responses (off-list), then pick one at > random and pass the deal on. > > Jay From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Sep 4 23:40:45 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 05:40:45 +0100 Subject: Mass Memory Unit from Space Shuttle In-Reply-To: <000701c5b189$20d23490$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <3.0.6.16.20050903155922.32d7abbe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <000701c5b189$20d23490$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <431BCC4D.2010000@gjcp.net> Steven Canning wrote: > of transducers throughout the shuttle. Both units contained an extremely > rugged propriety tape drive system ( you will notice the reels are on top of > each other and counter rotate ). Tape path something like the old Philips N1500/N1700 video recorders? They were pretty substantial beasts too, I seem to recall. Gordon. From trag at io.com Sat Sep 3 17:47:04 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 17:47:04 -0500 Subject: 64 pin SIMM (Mac IIFX) Specs? In-Reply-To: <200509031700.j83H0Oed028914@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509031700.j83H0Oed028914@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 00:17:50 +0100 (BST) >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >Most, if not all, of the single-bit-wide DRAM chips (4164, 41256, etc) >had separate DIN and DOUT pins. They were not dual-ported, though, you >only had one address bus for both reading and writing. Thank you. I have since noted this on X 1 DRAM datasheets. I had never noticed that before. >You could link these pins together externally, or you could use them >separately. IIRC on the IBM PC, the DIN and DOUT pins are linked on the >RAMs storing data bits, but wired separately on the RAMs storting the >parity bits. What is the point in using them separately? Was it for the case where the destination of a read is different from the source of a write? I could see where that could happen in parity checking. For the data bus though, the source and destination would be the same. For a little while I thought it might be for some odd timing advantage. But since the write data isn't required on the bus until just before the CAS anyway, I don't think the timing idea could be valid. Besides separate IN and Out could only confer a speed advantage in the cases where a Read followed a Write or vice versa. >If you have the machines that are supposed to use these 64 pin SIMMs, can >you not just check to see if DIN and DOUT are linked on the mainboard >with an ohmmeter? I don't have a IIfx or the SIMMs yet. I was exploring the feasibility of the project first. However, I posted a WTB to the austin.forsale news group and got lucky with a fellow who wants to give a IIfx away. So next week I should have hardware to explore. It's nice to avoid shipping when shipping would be greater than the value of a machine. Still, I would like to get my hands on the Apple Hardware Developer Note for the IIfx. It should at least mention whether they were using separate data_in and data_out for some timing related purpose. Of course, if an ohmmeter reveals that In and Out are tied together on the motherboard, then I'll have my answer. Jeff Walther From gcarrick at cse.uta.edu Sat Sep 3 23:45:24 2005 From: gcarrick at cse.uta.edu (A. G. Carrick) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 23:45:24 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 Message-ID: <200509040455.j844tQPw031993@keith.ezwind.net> Well, I have a bit of a dilemma and I am seeking advice. (No flames, please.) As so many on this list I abhor seeing things scraped if they are useful. As with much of the older mainframe stuff, however, it is very big, and an isolated unit is not generally useful by itself. So here is my problem. Our museum is a part of a big state university. I go by the surplus department once in a while and see some interesting stuff that I take back to our space and add to our inventory. If it has a residual value on the books then it is transferred to our department. If it is not on the books then I just take it and there is no record of it. In the latter cases I have been known to swap newer stuff for other older stuff we are interested in. Yesterday I went by and there was a nice IBM 3725 front end processor. It is not anything attractive for a museum visitor to look at. It takes up a lot of valuable display space (roughly 2 racks & about 5' tall) for something kind of obscure (for most people) and not at all visually interesting. Now I have no idea what our surplus department generally does with such things. Assuming that there is no actual market for it, I could probably go over there and get it for our museum. Right now I could probably even store it, at least until something more attractive came along. On the other hand, when we get to the point that we are a bona-fide museum, with lots of visitors, I can see raising some much needed cash by parting this thing out. I am sure there are lots of boards and control panels that could be sold individually. I would envision tagging these parts as being a souvenir of the museum, much as I will with punched cards, 8" floppy disks, 5-1/4" disks, etc. I guess a third alternative would be to sell or trade it to somebody on the list for something that is more visually interesting and perhaps smaller. Gil We don't sing because we're happy - We're happy because we sing! mailto:gilcarrick at comcast.net? web page: http://goodtimeschorus.org/ Gil Carrick VP Chapter Development/ Webmaster 1012 Portofino Dr., Arlington, TX, 76012 817-274-2210 From trag at io.com Sun Sep 4 15:05:37 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 15:05:37 -0500 Subject: Mass Memory Unit from Space Shuttle In-Reply-To: <200509041700.j84H0ahH037518@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509041700.j84H0ahH037518@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 19:48:23 -0700 >> I found a pile of these things this morning. They are made by Odetics >>in Anaheim Ca. After I got home with them I realized that they are for the >>space shuttle. Does anyone know anything about them? I THINK they use a >>tape drive inside. I haven't opened one up yet but I saw the remains of a >>tape drive at the same place and I think it was the guts out of one of these. I worked at NASA JSC in the mid-80s. Back then they definitely used tape drives for the mass storage on their flight computer systems. I don't know what they use today, whether they've changed or when any changes may have occured. But back in 84 - 87 they used tape drives. There was a thick (~3") training manual that explained the basic system architecture in passing. If I still have a copy there's not much hope of my finding it, but if I run across it, I'll post. Jeff Walther From korpela at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 00:50:57 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 22:50:57 -0700 Subject: XTs and large hard disks In-Reply-To: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0FCB1FFF@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0FCB1FFF@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: On 8/29/05, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > > > So my questions are: > 1. Does anyone know a good solution for putting a large drive in an XT, > while still leaving it an XT? There are a couple issues, the first being interface, the second being BIOS, and the third being DOS. 1. I'm not familiar with the IDE interface you mentioned. If it's an 8-bit IDE interface you're likely to have problems with 16 bit drives. The drive geometry information will be garbled at best... SCSI should work OK provided the drives support whatever the controller provides (which I would assume would be SCSI-1 (single ended, 5 MHz)) You should check whether TRM_PWR is supplied by your controller and try an active terminator, rather than any autotermination. I've found that some drives don't autoterminate SCSI-1 properly. 2. Your XT IDE controller is likely to be limited to 504MiB drives without a BIOS upgrade. Your XT IDE controller is unlikely to be doing any translation of block addresses required for LBA. It's probably doing cylinder-head-sector addressing. If the BIOS was written for DOS 4.X or earlier it's probably calculating size as follows.... cylinders=true_cylinders mod 1024 heads=true_heads mod 16 sectors=true_sectors mod 64 Although a SCSI controller shouldn't have these constraints, you never know till you look. 3. Depending upon what DOS you use, you may have a limit of 128MiB (Dos 4.X), 32MiB (Dos 3.X) or 16MiB (Dos 2.X and earlier). Your best bet for debugging is to upgrade to Dos 5.X+ and get smaller drives and use the largest one that works. 2. Should I leave the V20 in? I've heard it has compatibility issues > with some programs, but I'm not solid on my information. I've never had a compatibility issue using a V30 in an 8086 machines, except with very early copy protected games... Fortunately I could select speed and wait states from the keyboard and found that 4.77 MHz with 3 wait states generally came close enough to an XT to fool the game. Eric From korpela at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 00:58:59 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2005 22:58:59 -0700 Subject: XTs and large hard disks In-Reply-To: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0FCB1FFF@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0FCB1FFF@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> Message-ID: On 8/29/05, Wolfe, Julian wrote: > > I purchased an LBA PRO card for my machine hoping > to overcome the large disk size problem, but all it does is freeze the > machine... BTW, I think the LBA PRO is a replacement AT BIOS, and won't work on an XT (which doesn't have a interface independent BIOS like the AT does.) Having it on an 8-bit card confuses the issue, but since it's in the lower meg of address space it doesn't need the extra address lines, and 16-bit memory access would have meant a 16 bit wide ROM and more expense for card manufacture.. Eric From mamcfadden at cmh.edu Mon Sep 5 10:28:16 2005 From: mamcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike, A) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 10:28:16 -0500 Subject: Clean out of stuff in Kansas City, alphaserver, PDP-11, TEKtronix terminals, AT&T 7300 Message-ID: Winter is coming and the garage must be cleaned up. Make me an offer and come and pick it up, it's large and heavy. Alphaserver 2100 external DEC TZ87 DEC CRT VRT19-HA DEC CRT VR297-DA several DEC VT220, VT320 terminals several Wyse terminals PDP-11 BA23-A in floor stand TEK 4205 TEK 4209 2 LMSI 1200E 12" Optical Disc Drives AT&T UNIX PC i.e. AT&T 7300 TI Explorer compact chassis labeled on outside as Unisys, inside as T3127 contact Mike m a m c f a d d e n atatat c m h dot dot dot e d u From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 5 11:00:15 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 09:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mass Memory Unit from Space Shuttle In-Reply-To: from Jeff Walther at "Sep 4, 5 03:05:37 pm" Message-ID: <200509051600.JAA09990@floodgap.com> > I worked at NASA JSC in the mid-80s. Back then they definitely used > tape drives for the mass storage on their flight computer systems. > I don't know what they use today, whether they've changed or when any > changes may have occured. But back in 84 - 87 they used tape drives. Glad to see you here, Jeff! -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You only live twice. ------------------------------------------------------- From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 5 11:08:56 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 12:08:56 -0400 Subject: DEC Computer Lab In-Reply-To: <200509051545.j85FjRbc046211@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200509051608.j85G8nYG013751@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> If someone will photocopy these DEC computer lab manuals and send me the photocopies, I will create a PDF file and return the photocopies (if desired). They need to be unbound, and preferably single sided. They do not need to be 8.5" x 11". The better the copy of the copies, the better the PDF file. Barry Watzman Watzman at neo.rr.com From allain at panix.com Mon Sep 5 11:13:37 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 12:13:37 -0400 Subject: JF's calculations for PRIME numbers References: <002301c5b193$fd5f3070$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <431BB03F.7090408@compsys.to> Message-ID: <002b01c5b234$c6a0d600$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > If anyone has any suggestions, they would be appreciated! I think we tried to direct you in the past towards arbitrary precision integer arithmetic for your calculations, as you chose to deviate from that it is my belief, at least, that you chose to waste your own time. > While really big numbers are not required... > What are really needed are 256 bit floating point numbers Is this not an inconsistent statement? John A. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Sep 5 11:17:03 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 12:17:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wanted: Apple IIe enhanced keyswitch In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050904074520.197f4e94@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050904074520.197f4e94@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: I'm looking for a keyswitch and number 0 (zero) keycap for an Apple IIe enhanced (A2S2064) keyboard: http://sturgeon.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Apple/AppleIIeE-3L.jpg Does anyone have any spare switches, keycaps, or a junked keyboard to spare? Thanks. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Sep 5 11:25:06 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 09:25:06 -0700 Subject: IBM 3725 References: <200509040455.j844tQPw031993@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <431C7162.20A2557@msm.umr.edu> Gil, If you are in the enviable position of being able to acquire and store this at all, you never know what you will run across in the future. You might be albe to trade it to someone with channel attached systems who could use it, or you might acquire a collection or processor which would run it. If I'm not mistaken the 9121 on Ebay right now would run it, at least if the 9191 will do 370 mode. I believe that it has XA mode and probably ESA mode capability and the 3725 might not be operable on it, since you probably would not have access to an OS due to license costs, on anything but the 370 arch. Also, this makes one ask oneself, what hole did this crawl out of, and is there more? Have you asked that? Maybe there will be more to follow that would go with this, and you could head off any further shipments by that department to the scrap heap. Jim > > Yesterday I went by and there was a nice IBM 3725 front end processor. It is > not anything attractive for a museum visitor to look at. It takes up a lot > of valuable display space (roughly 2 racks & about 5' tall) for something > kind of obscure (for most people) and not at all visually interesting. From allain at panix.com Mon Sep 5 11:36:08 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 12:36:08 -0400 Subject: DEC Computer Lab References: <200509051608.j85G8nYG013751@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <005101c5b237$eb7fe4e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > If someone will photocopy these DEC computer lab manuals Man, what this world needs is a good scanner that can work without cracking a book open >90deg. I have a DEC "Computer Lab Workbook" here (yes, 1969) but I wont flatten it out to make copies. This one is the fragile paperback type. John A. From emu at ecubics.com Mon Sep 5 11:50:03 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 10:50:03 -0600 Subject: Clean out of stuff in Kansas City, alphaserver, PDP-11, TEKtronix terminals, AT&T 7300 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <431C773B.3090700@ecubics.com> McFadden, Mike, A wrote: > Winter is coming and the garage must be cleaned up. Make me an offer and come > and pick it up, it's large and heavy. > TEK 4205 > TEK 4209 Any idea how heavy they are, and what shipping would cost ? Can't pick them up at the moment :( Cheers & thanks, emanuel From jonathan.laventhol at imagination.com Mon Sep 5 11:54:20 2005 From: jonathan.laventhol at imagination.com (Jonathan Laventhol) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 17:54:20 +0100 Subject: Fragile book scanner [was Re: DEC Computer Lab] In-Reply-To: <005101c5b237$eb7fe4e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <200509051608.j85G8nYG013751@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <005101c5b237$eb7fe4e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <431C783C.9000004@imagination.com> John Allain wrote: > Man, what this world needs is a good scanner that > can work without cracking a book open >90deg. > I have a DEC "Computer Lab Workbook" here (yes, 1969) > but I wont flatten it out to make copies. This one is > the fragile paperback type. I believe the British Library has such a machine; whether they'll use it on your document is another question. Regards, Jonathan. From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 5 12:46:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 10:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Important: Need to hear from potential VCF 8.0 exhibitors/attendees Message-ID: I need to hear from people who had planned to attend or exhibit at VCF 8.0 this November, especially if you've already made your flight arrangements. It's important that you respond to me SOON. Please send your replies directly to me. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 5 12:42:34 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 11:42:34 -0600 Subject: JF's calculations for PRIME numbers In-Reply-To: <002b01c5b234$c6a0d600$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <002301c5b193$fd5f3070$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <431BB03F.7090408@compsys.to> <002b01c5b234$c6a0d600$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <431C838A.4090009@jetnet.ab.ca> John Allain wrote: >>If anyone has any suggestions, they would be appreciated! > > > I think we tried to direct you in the past towards arbitrary precision > integer arithmetic for your calculations, as you chose to deviate > from that it is my belief, at least, that you chose to waste your own time. > > I say read Knuth instead. Just reading a section on largest known primes in the form of 2^n -1 you get some rather big numbers: 2^20996011 - 1 is 6,300,000 decimal digits. Ben alias woodelf From gilcarrick at comcast.net Mon Sep 5 13:08:31 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:08:31 -0500 Subject: IBM 3725 In-Reply-To: <431C7162.20A2557@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200509051818.j85IIgvv046931@keith.ezwind.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim stephens > Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 11:25 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: IBM 3725 > > Gil, > If you are in the enviable position of being able to acquire > and store this at all, you never know what you will run > across in the future. You might be albe to trade it to > someone with channel attached systems who could use it, or Seems unlikely to me, and a lot of energy to get the 3725 to my space. > you might acquire a collection or processor which would run it. Not a chance. Don't have the space, power, time, etc. > If I'm not mistaken the 9121 on Ebay right now would run it, > at least if the 9191 will do 370 mode. I believe that it has > XA mode and probably ESA mode capability and the 3725 might > not be operable on it, since you probably would not have > access to an OS due to license costs, on anything but the 370 arch. Definitely. Maybe IBM would donate the license to our museum. ;) > > Also, this makes one ask oneself, what hole did this crawl > out of, and is there more? Have you asked that? Actually, no. I assume that it is from the main IT group. They have occasionally sent small things my way. They know that I do not really have the room to take this. > Maybe there > will be more to follow that would go with this, and you could > head off any further shipments by that department to the scrap heap. > > Jim Thanks for the ideas. I will ask where that came from. At least I could ask them for first refusal on their disposals. I did rescue a 3275 a few weeks back. It is considerably smaller - only about the size of a couple of suitcases. Plus I have some terminals and emulation cards I could hook to that just to show a typical configuration. Gil > > > > > Yesterday I went by and there was a nice IBM 3725 front end > processor. > > It is not anything attractive for a museum visitor to look at. It > > takes up a lot of valuable display space (roughly 2 racks & > about 5' > > tall) for something kind of obscure (for most people) and > not at all visually interesting. > From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Sep 5 13:39:47 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 14:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM 3725 In-Reply-To: <431C7162.20A2557@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: > If I'm not mistaken the 9121 on Ebay right now would run it, at least if > the 9191 will do 370 mode. I believe that it has XA mode and probably > ESA mode capability and the 3725 might not be operable on it, since you > probably would not have access to an OS due to license costs, on anything > but the 370 arch. At least the 9121 guy has some new pictures. Same price, however. Anyway, not all 3725s are channel attached. Some were made for remote sites and talk to the mainframe over leased modem lines (probably should be called "far end processor"). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jonathan.laventhol at imagination.com Mon Sep 5 13:40:14 2005 From: jonathan.laventhol at imagination.com (Jonathan Laventhol) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 19:40:14 +0100 Subject: JF's calculations for PRIME numbers In-Reply-To: <431C838A.4090009@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <002301c5b193$fd5f3070$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <431BB03F.7090408@compsys.to> <002b01c5b234$c6a0d600$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <431C838A.4090009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <431C910E.3080108@imagination.com> Hi All -- Regarding primes ... >>> If anyone has any suggestions, they would be appreciated! >> >> I think we tried to direct you in the past towards arbitrary precision >> integer arithmetic for your calculations, as you chose to deviate >> from that it is my belief, at least, that you chose to waste your own >> time. >> >> > I say read Knuth instead. Just reading a section on largest known primes > in the form of 2^n -1 you get some rather big numbers: 2^20996011 - 1 is > 6,300,000 decimal digits. > Ben alias woodelf I believe there's no way to do anything at all with primes unless all your numbers are accurate to (at least) 2^0, that is, they are integers. (Otherwise you don't even know if they're even or odd!) So if you're using floating point numbers, you are limited to the size of your mantissa; which might be a convenient way to get something bigger than 32 bits, but it won't get you any bigger than your mantissa. (Well, you get one bit for free if your floating point representation uses the implied leading zero.) So I'm with the others: Knuth + arbitrary precision. There are some other good books on specifically arithmetic with primes. May I ask what it's for? Best regards, J. From dmabry at mich.com Mon Sep 5 15:00:52 2005 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 16:00:52 -0400 Subject: Intel MDS Series II IOC question In-Reply-To: <431A7882.5060404@mich.com> References: <431A7882.5060404@mich.com> Message-ID: <431CA3F4.1000308@mich.com> Dave Mabry wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >> I am certainly interested, even though I don't have one of these >> machines. >> >> -tony >> >> snip... > > > Stay tuned...I have some more disassembling to do. > > Dave > > > As "promised" I have been disassembling 8080 code from the IOC board on an Intel MDS. This is not really difficult to do, but it is VERY time consuming. Turns out that I have been working on two different versions of the firmware...VERY DIFFERENT. The earliest version of IOC firmware that I know of is called V1.3, or at least that's the signon version number for the diagnostic code within it. Intel released a major enhancement for that firmware in about 1982 or 1983. They sold a package called the iMDX-511 that included the newer firmware and new code for the 8741 cpu in the keyboard. All MDS Series II's sold after that date had this code right out of the factory. The enhancements included cursor addressibility, some character attributes (like underline, bold, reverse video), soft keys that included some of the common ISIS-II commands, and other things like that. Interesting how this was a major enhancement at the time and is, of course, taken for granted by computer users today. So, I'm still working on disassembling, understanding, and commenting the V1.5 code for the IOC. If anyone is interested (Tony, you said you were! :)) I have put it online for anyone to snatch. It is the ".LST" file output from Intel's ASM80 Macro Assembler. That is the file that you would send to a printer, so it has lots of info. If anyone is interested enough to help me a bit, I would like to understand where the RAM diagnostic is in 1.5. I have identified it in 1.3, but V1.5 looks to be completely rewritten. The two versions are here: http://www.mich.com/~dmabry/intel/ioc When I have enough information on V1.5 I'll break out the ICE-80 again and dim the lights in my neighborhood! :) Dave Mabry From cannings at earthlink.net Mon Sep 5 15:35:13 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:35:13 -0700 Subject: Mass Memory Unit from Space Shuttle References: <3.0.6.16.20050903155922.32d7abbe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <431A5E60.ED0E7F00@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <003801c5b259$519bddd0$6401a8c0@hal9000> John is correct about the 5 Volt logic control signals. The prime power is +28 VDC spacecraft power. They have in-rush current limiters on the prime power input and will run down to + 24 VDC and up to +32 VDC ( there is a pre-regulator up front ). These are linear scan units ( not helical scan like a VCR ). Sounds like you have the MMU ( Mass Memory Unit, the smaller one ) and not the STR ( Standard Tape Recorder, the big guy ). These units ( MMU ) were digital only, and were used to download programs to the five general purpose IBM computers ( configured like IBM 360s ). Part of this function was to drive the " glass " dashboard ( CRTs) that provided info on engines, etc. There was not enough room for all the standard instruments on the " dash " that would have been required. So you could pull-up " virtual instruments " like they have on the Toyota Prius dashboard. The two tape reels were not driven, but maintained tape tension through differential gears connected to a " gyrator " spring that provided relatively constant torque between the two counter rotating reels. The tape was " pulled " through a proprietary delta drive capstan system which incorporated the read / write heads. Remember this thing has to survive the G-force of liftoff and run in a micro-gravity environment. Best regards, Steven Canning ----- Original Message ----- From: "John C. Ellingboe" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 7:39 PM Subject: Re: Mass Memory Unit from Space Shuttle > "Joe R." wrote: > > > > I found a pile of these things this morning. They are made by Odetics > > in Anaheim Ca. After I got home with them I realized that they are for the > > space shuttle. Does anyone know anything about them? I THINK they use a > > tape drive inside. I haven't opened one up yet but I saw the remains of a > > tape drive at the same place and I think it was the guts out of one of these. > > > > Joe > > I'm not sure about how many the shuttle used but there is one on > each solid rocket booster. The had two tape reels stacked on > top of each other. The control signals are 5V logic and power > is probably 24V DC. I try to locate a contact to get some data > in them. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 5 15:33:35 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:33:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: JF's calculations for PRIME numbers In-Reply-To: <431C910E.3080108@imagination.com> References: <002301c5b193$fd5f3070$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <431BB03F.7090408@compsys.to> <002b01c5b234$c6a0d600$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <431C838A.4090009@jetnet.ab.ca> <431C910E.3080108@imagination.com> Message-ID: <20050905133110.T23202@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 5 Sep 2005, Jonathan Laventhol wrote: > Regarding primes ... > So if you're using floating point numbers, you are limited to > the size of your mantissa; Unless you are looking for big prime numbers that are multiples of powers of two :-) From cube1 at charter.net Mon Sep 5 16:00:29 2005 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 16:00:29 -0500 Subject: Update: My Z2 (Re: Cromemco boot disk maker & images are available) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20050430100843.03c79770@cirithi> References: <20050416201638.TRNF20276.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20050905154625.0398a008@cirithi> Normally following up on one's own message is probably a bit of bad taste, however, this appeared to be the last message of the thread, and I have an update. FYI, I did manage, earlier this spring, to try and bring up my Z-2, but so far not so good. I got the power on (and measured it for general reasonableness). Once I hooked it up, it immediately blew a power filter capacitor on one of the floppy drives (this was not really a shock -- I had re-formed the main electrolytics, but didn't do that on each board or drive), which I replaced. So, I thought I might test the Z-2's floppy controller and CPU in my Altair chassis. I did get that running, but then I got distracted -- it was an obvious chance to snag the images of all of its disks (Micropolis-I, Micropolis-II and 8"), which I did, though the old beast was a little cranky from time to time. (Long ago I had written an imaging program I called "XMT" which used a little protocol I developed to transfer files and disk images reasonably reliably. All I had to do was write up the PC side. Uses a serial port). The system is not saying anything, but I was also short on docs, so after a few hours I kind of gave up on it for a while late in April / early in May. HOWEVER: I just stumbled on a big box full of stuff that came with my Cromemco. (Happy, happy, joy, joy). I had had the inkling that I had some stuff for the Z-2, but this spring I was looking just for a little floppy box. Today I am doing some cleaning, as things had gotten pretty out of hand in the finished part of my basement. After I got that cleaned up to the point where there were some electonic hardware things (PIC programmer, parts for a PIC project, etc.) that I wanted to put onto a shelf, I turned my attention to a shelf I had stuck some stuff on while we had some work done on our house *last* summer (over a year ago). On top of that shelf was a "copier paper box" chock full of manuals, doc -- and floppies -- all for the Z2!. So, now I guess I'll have to get motivated later this fall (probably late October before I can get to it) and find out what is making the Z2 unhappy and get it working again. Docs will make it a lot eaiser. ;^) And, of course, I may well still need the CDOS image -- I don't know if the two boxes of 5" floppies I have for it are any good (though my recovery of old Altair floppies was well over 95%, and most of the ones that were bad I knew were bad years ago -- my basement is cool and dry so things tend to keep remembering). The moral of the story: House cleaning is a good idea once in a while. 8^) At 10:09 AM 4/30/2005 -0500, Jay Jaeger wrote: >Thanks a bunch. I have been really busy the past couple of weeks, but >hope to fire up my Z-2 and give this a try over the next week or two. > >Jay Jaeger > >At 04:16 PM 4/16/2005 -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: >>Hi Guys, >> >>I've just posted my utility which allows you to make Cromemco BOOT disk >>via a serial cable and RDOS to my site: >> >> http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html >> >>Go to the very bottom of the main page, and select "disks and images", >>the utility is called RT050410.ZIP (I'll think of a better name later). >> >>I've also posted CROMDISK.ZIP which contains: >> >> CDOS disk configured for dual 5.25" drives >> (It's easy to make an 8" disk from this) >> Cromix in both 5.25" and 8" formats. >> >>Please refer to the RT.TXT file enclosed for information on how it >>all works. >> >>NOTE: So far this has been tested and found to work on only my one >>Cromemco system, which is a System-3 with ZPU, 256KZ and 16FDC (plus >>a bunch of Tuarts, PRI and WDI boards which don't matter for this). >>This machine has dual Tandon 8" drives, and I've got a pair of Teac >>5.25" drive attached externally ... >> >>The RDOS on the 16FDC is version 2.52 ... it is possible/likely that >>I have done things which may not be compatible with other versions >>of RDOS, please report your findings to me. >> >>I'm supposed to be picking up two more Cromemco systems next week, >>one of which I know has a 4FDC (I think the other is another 16FDC), >>so I should be able to verify/fix operation with the 4FDC shortly. >> >>If anyone happens to have a spare 64FDC, I would love to have one >>available so that I can get it working with the full set. >> >>Regards, >>Dave >> >>PS: Mike S. reports that the CDOS/INIT problem with 32k occurs only >>when you are running it in 64k - on a true 32k only system, he says >>it works OK - if you have only 32k, you may be able to skip the >>intermediate disk - hopefully we can dig up a version of CDOS & INIT >>which will resolve this little oddity. >>-- >>dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >>dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >>com Collector of vintage computing equipment: >> http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > >--- >Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection >cube1 at charter.net > > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1 at charter.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 5 15:11:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:11:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: 64 pin SIMM (Mac IIFX) Specs? In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Walther" at Sep 3, 5 05:47:04 pm Message-ID: > > >Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 00:17:50 +0100 (BST) > >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > >Most, if not all, of the single-bit-wide DRAM chips (4164, 41256, etc) > >had separate DIN and DOUT pins. They were not dual-ported, though, you > >only had one address bus for both reading and writing. > > Thank you. I have since noted this on X 1 DRAM datasheets. I had > never noticed that before. > > >You could link these pins together externally, or you could use them > >separately. IIRC on the IBM PC, the DIN and DOUT pins are linked on the > >RAMs storing data bits, but wired separately on the RAMs storting the > >parity bits. > > What is the point in using them separately? Was it for the case > where the destination of a read is different from the source of a > write? I could see where that could happen in parity checking. YEs, that was the idea. It's no use if you want to link the data pins to a bidirectional bus. I've seen DRAM boards with separate input and output buffers, converting the bidirectioanl off-board bus into seprate input and output buses to the DRAM chips themselves. It's also useful when you're using the DRAMa in a video display circuit and want to feed the DOUT lines to the shift register. I suspect the _real_ reason for it was that there was a spare pin on the package and it didn't ever make life more difficult to have separate DIN and DOUT pins (oyu could just strap them together externally if you wanted a bidirectional data pin). -tony From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Mon Sep 5 16:37:59 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 14:37:59 -0700 Subject: Fragile book scanner [was Re: DEC Computer Lab] References: <200509051700.j85H04Ct048634@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000901c5b262$1ed03d70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> I just found this scanner online, I have no experience with it. It does look good and cost about $250. The high-end machines cost $1000s. "Whereas professional book scanners are targeted mainly for large libraries, archive museums, and corporations with big budgets, OpticBook 3600 is an affordable solution for all libraries, copy rooms, students, teachers, universities, SOHO, law offices, publicists, and work groups." http://www.plustek.com/products/book.htm Michael Holley From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 5 16:18:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 22:18:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP82915 Modem Message-ID: I recently won an HP82915 Modem on E-bay (my first, and so far, only purchase there). I was suprised to get it for the opening bid, I though I'd have at least one other HP collector to contend with. It is, you see, the internal modem for the HP Integral. Anyway, it's a single PCB that fits into one of the Integral's expansion slots. Cotnains about 20 ICs, most of which I recognise. One odd thing is that the serial chip used is an 8250, a somewhat odd choice for a 68000-based machine. Does anyone here know anything about using it? The Integral manuals I have mention it exists, say it installs like any other board, and that you need a normal 'modular phone cable' to link it to the phone line. Nothing I'd not worked out by myself. Incidentally, I have no intention of linking it to a public phone line, I just want to connect it to another modem. I suspect it'll work withont any DC voltage on the line, if not, that's easy to fix. Did anyone, though, have a cheap/homebrew device to link 2 modems back-to-back, doing things properly with dial and ring tones, etc? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 5 16:26:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 22:26:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Rockwell R1212DS modem chipset Message-ID: The HP 82915 Modem (for the Integral) that I mentioned in another message, uses a 3-chip chipset from Rockwell. The chips are R5313-14, R5132-14 and 10464-14. THe first 2 are 64 pin QIL zig-zag pin packages, the last is a 40 pin DIL. Now, I have the 1985 Rockwell databook here, which covers modems. It appears you could buy a ready-assembled PCB from Rockwell containing these chips and the support components. I have data on that. You could also buy the chips not-on-a-PCB, as the R1212DS 'device set'. Alas I have no real data on those, the book refers me to 'R1212 Modem Device Set Manual', order number 652. And I don't have that. Does anyone have it? Failing that, does anyone have 'R2424 Modem Device Set Manual), order number 651 (this is the 2400 bps version). The chips seem to be somewhat related. What I am relally looking for is complete pinouts of all 3 chips. This may not be in those manuals, though. I have the service manaul for the Amstrad PPC, which includes a schematic of its internal modem. That used the R2424 chipsset, but the schematic does not name most of the pins on these chips, only those that go to other parts of the modem. The internconnections between the 3 chips in the chipset are shown, but not named. I am wondering if the Manual just told you to link pin 7 on the Tx chi to pin 15 on the Rx chip (or whatever, that is a ficticious connection!), and didn't tell you what that signal was. -tony From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Sep 5 21:04:11 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 22:04:11 -0400 Subject: JF's calculations for PRIME numbers In-Reply-To: <431C910E.3080108@imagination.com> References: <002301c5b193$fd5f3070$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <431BB03F.7090408@compsys.to> <002b01c5b234$c6a0d600$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <431C838A.4090009@jetnet.ab.ca> <431C910E.3080108@imagination.com> Message-ID: <431CF91B.5030602@compsys.to> First of all, the reason is "FOR FUN", the most practical of all reasons. Second, the basic problem is that the FORTRAN 77 routines for the PDP-11 under RT-11 are not even accurate beyond about 12 places of precision using FORTRAN 77 floating point conversions. So even if the value is correct internally to the 56 bit mantissa of the 64 bit floating point value, it is not possible to depend on the displayed result. Third, arbitrary precision routines have too much precision relative to what I actually require most of the time - which is only about 80 to 120 bits for integers. The area I am interested in is probably best described by the information at: which has a 22 digit number as the biggest value in all the tables there. So 128 bit integers which require only 16 bytes are more than sufficient. The required subroutines are easy to code in MACRO-11 and will be suitable for what I need without the added overhead of subroutines that can handle numbers with thousands of digits, let along millions. The biggest problem that I have encountered thus far was how to encode such a large integer for output. The standard method for small numbers is to just subtract powers of ten. But I needed a table of 16 bit values to place in each if the approximately 38 entries in the table, each entry being 8 * 16 bit words. So I just used the subroutine that performs addition on 128 bit values to produce the powers of ten and then use the FORTRAN 77 octal output to write the 8 word entries to a file. That file was then used in the MACRO-11 program. Actually quite a reasonable way to let the computer do the accounting details while I did the program to use the table. I realize that I omitted the actual size of the words I want to work with ( i.e. 128 bit integers) which are actually quite small compared to the really huge stuff which deals with and handles values with over a million decimal digits. For that, I apologize. Best regards, Jerome Fine >Jonathan Laventhol wrote: > Hi All -- > > Regarding primes ... > >>>> If anyone has any suggestions, they would be appreciated! >>> >>> >>> I think we tried to direct you in the past towards arbitrary precision >>> integer arithmetic for your calculations, as you chose to deviate >>> from that it is my belief, at least, that you chose to waste your >>> own time. >>> >>> >> I say read Knuth instead. Just reading a section on largest known >> primes >> in the form of 2^n -1 you get some rather big numbers: 2^20996011 - 1 is >> 6,300,000 decimal digits. >> Ben alias woodelf > > > I believe there's no way to do anything at all with primes unless > all your numbers are accurate to (at least) 2^0, that is, they > are integers. (Otherwise you don't even know if they're even or odd!) > > So if you're using floating point numbers, you are limited to > the size of your mantissa; which might be a convenient way to > get something bigger than 32 bits, but it won't get you any > bigger than your mantissa. (Well, you get one bit for free > if your floating point representation uses the implied leading > zero.) > > So I'm with the others: Knuth + arbitrary precision. There > are some other good books on specifically arithmetic with > primes. > > May I ask what it's for? > > Best regards, > J. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue Sep 6 01:27:24 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 08:27:24 +0200 Subject: Fragile book scanner [was Re: DEC Computer Lab] In-Reply-To: <000901c5b262$1ed03d70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> References: <200509051700.j85H04Ct048634@dewey.classiccmp.org> <000901c5b262$1ed03d70$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <20050906062724.GQ27695@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2005-09-05 14:37:59 -0700, Michael Holley wrote: > "Whereas professional book scanners are targeted mainly for large > libraries, archive museums, and corporations with big budgets, OpticBook > 3600 is an affordable solution for all libraries, copy rooms, students, > teachers, universities, SOHO, law offices, publicists, and work groups." > > http://www.plustek.com/products/book.htm Yes, this scanner's advertisements read very well. Unfortunately, only newer MS Windows variants are supported and Plustek isn't willing to offer drivers or scanner documentation to developers. I really hope that this scanner's internals are reverse engineered really fast as I'd love to buy one of these... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O f?r einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 6 08:19:41 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 09:19:41 -0400 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? References: <43180204.AE0E61BC@cs.ubc.ca> <20050902182507.4d84d012.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <17181.38765.224062.975136@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Scott" == Scott Stevens writes: Scott> On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 00:41:10 -0700 Brent Hilpert Scott> wrote: >> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> > >> > On Tue, 30 Aug 2005, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> > >> > > The sad part is that at least two of the control panels look >> like > > they may have just been stripped from complete units. >> > >> > There's nothing terribly special about the 3420 drives. I mean, >> who > (beside my insane self) is going to want one? And if so, >> for what, > other than gawking at it? >> >> Yeah, well, they're just neat, that's all. Side-by-side-reel >> vacuum-column tape drives: #2 on the list of iconic aspects of >> early computers, although I take #it from it's appearance and what >> you and William are saying that these (3420s) are late models(last >> of the breed?). >> Scott> Where I worked, in the late 70's, it was the NEWER drives that Scott> had vacuum columns. The old drives were the ones I had to Scott> deal with the most. It was a COM facility so the only thing Scott> we ever did was read tapes, but they came from all over the Scott> place (different customers). Also, it was only the NEWEST Scott> drive that had 6250 bpi. Mostly we dealt with 800 and 1600 Scott> tapes, and with drives that had switchable 7/9 track heads. I Scott> wouldn't call vacuum column drives an icon of EARLY Scott> computers... Curious. The old IBM 360/44 I used, and the Cyber 73 with old slow 7 track tape drives, both had vacuum columns. The first couple of magtape drives for PDP11s from DEC all had vacuum columns. It wasn't until the TS03 and TS11 ("tape stretch 11") that DEC tried to do it on the cheap without vacuum columns. paul From pechter at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 08:52:52 2005 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 09:52:52 -0400 Subject: WPS All in One files... In-Reply-To: <43152A44.1040707@atarimuseum.com> References: <0IM2009L5EQL37Z2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <431525F9.6000806@atarimuseum.com> <43152A44.1040707@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <431D9F34.3010305@gmail.com> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Is there any PC/Win based app that can import in WPS All in One files? > > > > > Curt > > > > WPS-80, WPS-PC (a non-DEC implementation) did document transfer and maybe import from DECmates and ran on Rainbows and PCs. I don't know if the All-in-One WPS format was the same as the PDP8 based stuff -- but it may be. The company Exceptional Business Solutions seems to have dropped from sight. I don't know if there's any way to legally get a copy of the software. Bill From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 6 09:51:48 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 09:51:48 Subject: HP82915 Modem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050906095148.334f8d04@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:18 PM 9/5/05 +0100, you wrote: >I recently won an HP82915 Modem on E-bay (my first, and so far, only >purchase there). Tony? E-bay?? Now I know the end of the world is coming! :-) I was suprised to get it for the opening bid, I though >I'd have at least one other HP collector to contend with. It is, you see, >the internal modem for the HP Integral. Darn you! I keep a constant watch on E-bay for Integral stuff but I didn't see it! > >Anyway, it's a single PCB that fits into one of the Integral's expansion >slots. Cotnains about 20 ICs, most of which I recognise. One odd thing is >that the serial chip used is an 8250, a somewhat odd choice for a >68000-based machine. > >Does anyone here know anything about using it? Not much. It's a 300/1200 Baud modem. ONE sales brochure list it in ONE place but give NO details or pictures and never mentions it again. The service manuals don't give ANY details about it. (It's one of those "If it fails, replace the CCA. If it still fails, replace the whole thing." procedures.) To test it they have you install two modems in the IPC and plug them into separate phone lines and call one from the other while running the diagnostics program. The diagnostics program will report No Carrier, No Dialtone and the like but that's all. There no mention of a null-modem type cable. Joe The Integral manuals I >have mention it exists, say it installs like any other board, and that >you need a normal 'modular phone cable' to link it to the phone line. >Nothing I'd not worked out by myself. > >Incidentally, I have no intention of linking it to a public phone line, >I just want to connect it to another modem. I suspect it'll work withont >any DC voltage on the line, if not, that's easy to fix. > >Did anyone, though, have a cheap/homebrew device to link 2 modems >back-to-back, doing things properly with dial and ring tones, etc? > >-tony > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 6 09:02:36 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 10:02:36 -0400 Subject: S/360 channel References: <431ACF80.6083.72E8B7CF@localhost> Message-ID: <17181.41340.978952.636561@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Brian" == Brian Knittel writes: Brian> Pretty much plug and go. It's very much like a SCSI interface.... Brian> But from the programmer's standpoint, it's very simple. An IO Brian> command points to a "channel program" which is usually just a Brian> device command word and a data transfer address. The channel Brian> takes it from there, and an interrupt is issued when the Brian> operation is complete (usually). SCSI is a good analogy. Some channel programs could be quite hairy. An extreme example is the boot loader for the 360/44 emulator facility -- that's a chunk of magic hidden memory and logic that allows the 44 to execute SS (character/decimal type) instructions. It doesn't natively do that, so it traps to the emulator, which does the work. So you can run OS/360 and COBOL or PL/I applications (very slowly). The emulator is loaded from a card deck, via the "Emulator IPL" button on the console. The deck is a plain assembler binary deck, exactly as you could get punched out for any binary, with address and data length fields on every card. The channel program is self-modifying; it uses data and command chaining to read the address and length fields of each card into another channel word, which then transfers the right number of bytes to the right place -- repeating until the deck is finished. Amazing... paul From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Sep 6 09:06:47 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 10:06:47 -0400 Subject: WPS All in One files... In-Reply-To: <431D9F34.3010305@gmail.com> References: <0IM2009L5EQL37Z2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <431525F9.6000806@atarimuseum.com> <43152A44.1040707@atarimuseum.com> <431D9F34.3010305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <431DA277.5010008@atarimuseum.com> Hi Bill, Thats for the info. Is WPS also formatted the same as Word 11 ? Curt Bill Pechter wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Is there any PC/Win based app that can import in WPS All in One files? >> >> >> >> >> Curt >> >> >> >> > WPS-80, WPS-PC (a non-DEC implementation) did document transfer and > maybe import from DECmates > and ran on Rainbows and PCs. I don't know if the All-in-One WPS > format was the same as the > PDP8 based stuff -- but it may be. > > The company Exceptional Business Solutions seems to have dropped from > sight. > > I don't know if there's any way to legally get a copy of the software. > > Bill > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/90 - Release Date: 9/5/2005 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 6 10:03:58 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 10:03:58 Subject: Strange Things was Re: HP82915 Modem Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050906100358.3f6fcc5e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:18 PM 9/5/05 +0100, Tony wrote: >I recently won an HP82915 Modem on E-bay (my first, and so far, only >purchase there). I went and did some checking on E-bay after reading Tony's message and I found this: " DATA I/O 201EPROM PROGRAMMER WITH HP 82939A OPT .001" It's a DATA IO EPROM programmer with an attached HP-85 RS-232 interface! It's ended already and there were no bids. Joe From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 6 09:56:13 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 10:56:13 -0400 Subject: WPS All in One files... References: <0IM2009L5EQL37Z2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <431525F9.6000806@atarimuseum.com> <43152A44.1040707@atarimuseum.com> <431D9F34.3010305@gmail.com> <431DA277.5010008@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <17181.44557.511739.664919@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "curt" == curt <@ Atari Museum" > writes: curt> Hi Bill, Thats for the info. Is WPS also formatted the same as curt> Word 11 ? Word-11? Is that another name for WPS-Plus? (WPS-Plus ran on PDP11 and VAX. Very very slowly and poorly on a PDP11 because of the Virtual Disease -- you can't write a program for a 32 bit platform, drop it into a 16 bit platform using essentially the same architecture, and expect it to work sensibly. It's written in one of the world's most obscure programming languages -- Koala, named after K.O. who inflicted it on DEC.) paul From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 10:35:00 2005 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 11:35:00 -0400 Subject: Large lot of stuff FS in Vermont Message-ID: Hello all, - Found on comp.os.cpm... - I am *NOT* the seller, his information is at the bottom of this message .... I *cannot* take the whole lot, nor can I hold it (or parts of it) for others. I would be interested, however, in being part of a team to transport it someplace ... Rich B. > Hi; > > I have a huge collection of vintage equipment I want to sell. There is a > collection of several years here. Make a reasonable offer, you pick up. It > is just too much for me to deal with any more and I want a serious vintage > collector take it and use it.I cannot sell and ship selectively. And there > is just WAY too much to ship anyway.I need to sell it as ONE lot. Here is a > small sketch of what I have. Because of the range of stuff, I apologize > ahead for cross posting. > > Commodore...(2) c64,(1) C64C (2)c128,(2) vic20,(3) plus 4, and (1)c16 > computers. (4) 1541 and(2) 1571 disk drives, cables etc. 1 c2N Datasette, 2 > commodore Monitors, one working one in need of repair. There are diskettes, > miscellaneous manuals.A number of Texas instruments 994a units (both Beige > and Silver and Black) and accessories, including THE expansion box.A lot of > program cartridges,disks, a tape drve unit, etc. > > Also multiple Tandy 1000 type units,A Tandy 2000, A PC Junior and monitor > and accessories, Multiple Apple 2e, 2e+ and a number of early Macs including > 2gs. A couple of Apple 2c units and the matching monitors.A couple of Lazer > 128s, A couple of early Atari and coleco game systems and cartridges. An > Atari 520ST with monitor,A complete coleco Adam and some spare parts. 2 > Kaypros, an Osborne 1, A number of Various Zenith products including a > couple of Z100s, EZ PCs and early portables. A Panasonic Partner.There is > also a Digital Rainbow 100. There are a bunch of early notebook machines > here too from various manufacturers. > > Also a number of early desktop systems, IBM PC 5150s, IBM ATs, Various other > Early IBM machines, Zeniths, Compaqs, some portables, and other numerous > desktops with names such as Sanyo, Hundai, Wang, -- clear up through 286s > 386s 486s and early pentiums and AMD products. > > Also totes full of cards, drives, cables, parts etc. There are not monitors > for each individual system, but there is a at least one monitor that will > work with each. Some of the 8 bits use a TV and there is a TV switch unit or > two here also. Ive got a few printers, enough to match and couple with most > systems. > There is also a LOT of software,disks,books,manuals, etc.You'll need to > bring cartons :-) > > So, in short a bunch of equipment from the early 80s up through. 8 bit and > up. > > Fully 99% of the equipment is operational. All has been stored here, dry and > protected,where I live. Everything is as is, please. MAKE ME AN OFFER. > > Please email so we can make arrangements. You pick up, and I won't take > personal checks, please. I live in the central Vermont area. > > email at: onthfly1 at hotmail.com From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Sep 6 12:23:46 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:23:46 -0400 Subject: VMS Question... Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CDB@cpexchange.olf.com> Hi, This is my first venture (or an attempt to venture) into the world of VMS. I have a couple of questions: 1) Is there an emulator, etc to run OpenVMS on and where can I get it as well as OpenVMS? 2) Does OpenVMS support the notion of shared libraries (DLL to you windoze users)... I want to re-port an old application, but want to use OpenVMS instead. I don't have a machine that is capable of running VMS (nor do I have the space for one), so an emulator will suffice.... Thanks, Ram From Tim at Rikers.org Tue Sep 6 12:43:36 2005 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 11:43:36 -0600 Subject: HP 21xx update Message-ID: <431DD548.2070309@Rikers.org> So, I'm mostly recovered from the move to UT and I've gotten back to working on the HPs I acquired. http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware I've fixed the visible issues with the HP-2116A and powered it up slowly with a variac with a minium of cards installed. Fans spin up ok, I get a couple of the power circuits live, but fuse F8 blows and the rest of the power circuits do no come up. No lights on the front panel etc. I'm reading through the HP-2116B vol2 manual on bitsavers (Thanx Al!): http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/2116/02116-9153_2116B_Vol2_Oct70.pdf But there are some differences in the power supply between the 2116A and 2116B. I don't have an A1 card for example, and the core memory is completely different. I'm kinda beating my head against the wall on this one. Still hoping Bob or someone else will dig up a Volume 2 manual for the 2116A sometime soon. =/ In the mean time, I've repaired and powered up the HP-2108A system. Things seem to checkout ok. Now anyone want to suggest a light chaser program to key in for kicks? I don't have any manuals specific to the HP-2108A here, but I suppose I should try some of the memory diagnostics routines from the 2100 or 2116 to check things out. The basics seem to work. I can store/recall values from registers and memory. I've not tried all memory locations or anything yet. I'm hanging out on #classicmp on irc.freenode.net as usual. I was hoping Jay would be around sometime or others that might suggest what to do next. ;-) My paper tape reader seems to spin up ok now, but I've not tried to talk to it in software yet. Also I don't have real tape images for things like the basic1 environment: http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100/hpbasic/basic1.abs I've got my hacked simh that has ANSI text register displays to test out routines on. That's been very useful. ;-) Any suggestions on getting pc based paper tape images over to real HP hardware? I do have a paper tape punch, but no docs on it. Also I don't currently have any blank media. Thanx! -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 6 12:53:34 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:53:34 -0400 Subject: VMS Question... References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CDB@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <17181.55198.346789.209390@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ram" == Ram Meenakshisundaram writes: Ram> Hi, This is my first venture (or an attempt to venture) into the Ram> world of VMS. I have a couple of questions: Ram> 1) Is there an emulator, etc to run OpenVMS on and where can I Ram> get it as well as OpenVMS? SIMH. Ram> 2) Does OpenVMS support the notion of shared libraries (DLL to Ram> you windoze users)... Yes, from day 1. paul From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 12:57:37 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 13:57:37 -0400 Subject: VMS Question... In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CDB@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CDB@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <431DD891.8010103@gmail.com> Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > Hi, > > This is my first venture (or an attempt to venture) into the world of VMS. > I have a couple of questions: > > 1) Is there an emulator, etc to run OpenVMS on and where can I get it as > well as OpenVMS? SIMH (Emulator): http://simh.trailing-edge.com/ VMS: http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/ You need to be an Encompass member to get VMS licenses. > 2) Does OpenVMS support the notion of shared libraries (DLL to you windoze > users)... Yes. > I want to re-port an old application, but want to use OpenVMS instead. I > don't have a machine that is capable of running VMS (nor do I have the space > for one), so an emulator will suffice.... Why don't you get a VAXstation 4000/vlc? It's one of the tiniest pizza-box cases I've ever seen. Significantly smaller than something like a Sun 3/60. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 6 12:59:46 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 13:59:46 -0400 Subject: VMS Question... In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CDB@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CDB@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <431DD912.5060005@bellatlantic.net> Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: Hi Ram, > Hi, > > This is my first venture (or an attempt to venture) into the world of VMS. > I have a couple of questions: > > 1) Is there an emulator, etc to run OpenVMS on and where can I get it as > well as OpenVMS? Yes, but I'm not sure of what platform and cost. I'd never considered it. You'd also need a VMS license and they are not cheap. I have an advantage as I was engineering for DEC and took a deal available to employees back then. However that limits me to V5.x versions but thats ok even though 7.3 is current. You can check www.montagar.com to see what the hobbiest license entails. There is an active newgroup comp.os.vms. > 2) Does OpenVMS support the notion of shared libraries (DLL to you windoze > users)... Yes but very different from winders. Never did a direct comparison to winders or unix. Also all the winders work I do are either at the hardware level (boxes and networks) or Databases using delphi, paradox and SQL in a server envirnment so I rarely look at the lower levels of winders unless forced to. Though I've done stuff at the other extreme on PCs in the DOS and QBasic4.5 as programmed controllers. > I want to re-port an old application, but want to use OpenVMS instead. I > don't have a machine that is capable of running VMS (nor do I have the space > for one), so an emulator will suffice.... If you can find a uVAX3100 (microvax3100, Vaxserver3100) that would do and they are small 18x4x16 and 180W power. Disks for those are 3.5" SCSI-1 or II typically. VMS on a 3100 only needs 100mb for itself so a 1gb drive is plenty of room. VAX systems of the microVAX flavor are fairly small though some of the bigger members can be a bit large. The smallest would be the uVAX2000 at about a 1/2 cuFT most of the 3100 series are desktop sized and the 6000 series are generally rack sized bigger systems. Stay away from the Qbus vaxen (MicrovaxII, 3500) as that will definately get you into the hardware realm though they are good machines. Also Qbus machines are more likely to have older disk interfaces (MFM drives) or other DEC unique disk. The Qbus machines are also likely to be missing key items like network card or enough memory. As to memory, anything with at least 16mb of ram will be OK although more is better. You need at least 12mb to run VMS decently starting with V5.x and 16mb with V7.x. My collection of VAXen include a pair of microVAXIIs and 3 MicroVAX200 and 8 3100s (mix of /m10s and /M76s). Allison From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Sep 6 13:00:08 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 19:00:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: VMS Question... In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CDB@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CDB@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <50799.82.152.112.73.1126029608.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Hi, > > This is my first venture (or an attempt to venture) into the world of VMS. > I have a couple of questions: > > 1) Is there an emulator, etc to run OpenVMS on and where can I get it as > well as OpenVMS? The one that immediately springs to mind is CHARON-VAX: http://www.softresint.com/charon-vax/index.htm I'm not sure if they do a hobbyist version though. > 2) Does OpenVMS support the notion of shared libraries (DLL to you windoze > users)... VMS has had shared libraries for ever I think. They're EXEs that contain your subroutines etc and they're linked in a different way to apps. After that though you just add them into your link statement. You can also INSTALL them which makes them memory resident and multi-user so every app that needs access to them gets the memory copy rather than having to drag its own copy off disk every time. Surely you can get your hands on a small VAX like a 4000-60 or 3100 series machine, then you can get the hobbyist VMS licenses and you're off. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Sep 6 13:02:17 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 11:02:17 -0700 Subject: Nashville Rescue - revisited Message-ID: <200509061102.17982.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Several people responded to my original "rescue" notice, but folks seem to want boards, etc. as opposed to system units. I'm bringing it up again - as I was just notified that the space where the equipment is located is now under a new lease contract, and the DEC gear must be "disposed of" as soon as possible, or it will be scrapped. This is totally "free" gear - local pickup O.K., or get it for the price of shipping... History: >From a historical perspective, this equipment is interesting - I was used to develop TSX-plus!!! The "11/73" is an "11/03" that was upgraded to an "11/23", to an "11/23+" and finally to an "11/73". The original $28K system was provided by DEC free of charge to TSX for software development... Here's the equipment list: 1 PDP11/73 processor - 1 MB memory (maybe more) 2 RL01 drives (one may not be functional) 1 RL02 drive 1 Fujitsu Winchester drive (probably around 75 MB) 2 RX02 drives 1 dual RX50 drive 1 TK50 tape unit I believe all the cabinets are original DEC. The main cabinet is a "DEC DataSystem" rack about 5.5' tall. The RL02 and the Winchester are housed in a DEC cabinet about 3 to 4 ft tall. Finally there is the "desk" which holds the floppies. PICTURES: Pictures of the what's available can be found via anonymous ftp at "bickleywest.com" in the directory "nashville". Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Sep 6 13:14:29 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 14:14:29 -0400 Subject: VMS Question... Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CDE@cpexchange.olf.com> Thanks for the responses. I am rewriting some applications to utilize shared libraries, etc instead of it being statically linked. Makes things a lot easier for managing user-supplied code. I will look into getting SIMH... Cheers, Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Koning [mailto:pkoning at equallogic.com] > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 1:54 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VMS Question... > > > >>>>> "Ram" == Ram Meenakshisundaram writes: > > Ram> Hi, This is my first venture (or an attempt to venture) > into the Ram> world of VMS. I have a couple of questions: > > Ram> 1) Is there an emulator, etc to run OpenVMS on and > where can I Ram> get it as well as OpenVMS? > > SIMH. > > Ram> 2) Does OpenVMS support the notion of shared libraries > (DLL to Ram> you windoze users)... > > Yes, from day 1. > > paul > From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Sep 6 13:25:55 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 14:25:55 -0400 Subject: VMS Question... Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CE0@cpexchange.olf.com> > Why don't you get a VAXstation 4000/vlc? It's one of the tiniest > pizza-box cases I've ever seen. Significantly smaller than something > like a Sun 3/60. New Machine = Angry Wife = No Space :-) Ram From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Sep 6 13:50:04 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 14:50:04 -0400 Subject: VMS Question... In-Reply-To: <431DD891.8010103@gmail.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CDB@cpexchange.olf.com> <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CDB@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050906143753.03a72b90@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Sridhar Ayengar may have mentioned these words: >Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: >>Hi, >>This is my first venture (or an attempt to venture) into the world of VMS. [snippage] >Why don't you get a VAXstation 4000/vlc? It's one of the tiniest >pizza-box cases I've ever seen. Because for some that are tight on space, you still have a monitor, keyboard, possibly a mouse, a desk to actually stick it all on, etc. In my particular case, I wouldn't have room (read: 130 year old home with *dinky* rooms) for a pizza box, either... :-/ That said, I'm still trying to figure out how to set up a CoCo system again... ;-) =-= However =-= Ram, if you're looking for some room for a VMS box, I'd *gladly* trade you my totally decked out VaxStation 3100 for one of your transputers... ;^> Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Sep 6 14:01:47 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 15:01:47 -0400 Subject: VMS Question... Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CE6@cpexchange.olf.com> Charon-VAX offers a freeware version now for OpenVMS users as well as Fedora Linux users. But, I am going to use SIMH. I'll just get a version of OpenVMS for hobby usage. The problem I have is more so with my wife than really space. I already have a lot of stuff in my house and adding yet another system will just make matters worse. The emulation route is more suited for me. > You can also INSTALL them which makes them memory resident and multi-user so every app > that needs access to them gets the memory copy rather than having to drag its own copy off disk every time. This sounds more like what I want to do. I am in the process of re-writing the iserver transputer host communication application to be a bit more open. Currently, all the drivers are linked into the application which makes adding new driver support a pain. I want to dynamically load the library from the application itself. For example, the configuration file would be like this: |c0t5l0|T|localhost|/dev/c0t5l0|transputer.so|||| So, when the application configures itself for c0t510, it will dynamically load the file transputer.so and use the device /dev/c0t510 as its resource (this is NOT a real example). Is this possible? The library will have the standard INMOS communication API present (OpenLink, CloseLink, etc) Thanks, Ram From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 6 14:50:17 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 14:50:17 Subject: Mass Memory Unit from Space Shuttle In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20050903155922.32d7abbe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20050903155922.32d7abbe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050906145017.3b8f690a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:48 PM 9/3/05 -0700, Zane wrote: >> I found a pile of these things this morning. They are made by Odetics >>in Anaheim Ca. After I got home with them I realized that they are for the >>space shuttle. Does anyone know anything about them? I THINK they use a >>tape drive inside. I haven't opened one up yet but I saw the remains of a >>tape drive at the same place and I think it was the guts out of one of these. >> >> Joe > >Any chance of getting a photo up? Here you go: . I opened it up and took pictures on the inside too. I was HAPPY to see that it did have a tape in it! The red tag on this unit says that it is an "Engineering Test Unit". I have at least three more of these plus a test panel, some cables and a larger unit that I'm not sure what it is and haven't had time to check it yet. A couple of the pictures have a 12 inch ruler in them for a size reference. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 6 13:56:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 19:56:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP82915 Modem In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050906095148.334f8d04@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Sep 6, 5 09:51:48 am Message-ID: > > At 10:18 PM 9/5/05 +0100, you wrote: > >I recently won an HP82915 Modem on E-bay (my first, and so far, only > >purchase there). > > Tony? E-bay?? Now I know the end of the world is coming! :-) Ineed... > > > I was suprised to get it for the opening bid, I though > >I'd have at least one other HP collector to contend with. It is, you see, > >the internal modem for the HP Integral. > > Darn you! I keep a constant watch on E-bay for Integral stuff but I > didn't see it! Lucky me :-) It wasn't listed as an Integral part, only as an HP82915 Modem. I was pretty sure that was the Integral modem, one of my manuals mentions it in passing. When it came, I was certain. Right size board, right connector (a DIN 41612 socket), plastic cover over the solder side, etc. > > > > >Anyway, it's a single PCB that fits into one of the Integral's expansion > >slots. Cotnains about 20 ICs, most of which I recognise. One odd thing is > >that the serial chip used is an 8250, a somewhat odd choice for a > >68000-based machine. > > > >Does anyone here know anything about using it? > > Not much. It's a 300/1200 Baud modem. ONE sales brochure list it in ONE > place but give NO details or pictures and never mentions it again. The it's not that interesting to look at. It looks like any other Integral PCB. As I said, about 17 chips, a crystel, a crystal oscillator, a 3 terminal regualtro, a transformer, a reed relay, a transistor, and some passives. 2 US-style phone sockets on the bracket, both unmarked (may just be wired pin-pin, with the appropirate pair of pins also going to the modem circuitry). > service manuals don't give ANY details about it. (It's one of those "If it > fails, replace the CCA. If it still fails, replace the whole thing." Repairing it would probably violate the FCC approval (it would certainly violate BT appoval for a UK modem). Since I don't intend to connect this to a public phone line, that doesn't bother me. That said, the HP Portable Plus service manual (I have it) does give some repair procedures and a scheamtic for its internal modem (totally different ot the IPC one, BTW). I does say that certain components (mostly resistors) must not be replaced in the field, since this could affect the FCC approval (incorrect transmitter level, etc). > procedures.) To test it they have you install two modems in the IPC and > plug them into separate phone lines and call one from the other while > running the diagnostics program. The diagnostics program will report No > Carrier, No Dialtone and the like but that's all. There no mention of a > null-modem type cable. Well, there won't be any form of null modem cable. There are only 2 wires to the telephone line, and polarity shouldn't matter. However, we had a brief discussion here a few weeks ago about linking 2 modems without the use of a public telephone system, e.g. by buying a small telephone exchange. I am wondering how much is actually needed for _this_ modem. -tony From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Sep 6 14:44:09 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 15:44:09 -0400 Subject: VMS Question... Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CEC@cpexchange.olf.com> In the coming days, I am planning on selling two brand-new CSA TEK Boards (master and slave) on ebay. These are 2 of the 3 remaining TEK boards I have. I am planning on keeping one for myself. This will include the extremely RARE 2 Mbyte daughterboards (2 of them!) and two packs of the expansion chips (for the serial/parallel programming) and one unopened box of TEK software (occam, logical systems c, etc). Unfortunately, I only have one set of the documentation, but most of it is now online (except for the Compiler writer's guide, CSA User Guide, and the Occam workbook). And Roger, I really cant take on another box, regardless of how decked out it is. Wife is too angry with the stuff I already have. Plus, I only need something to compile on as I have no QBUS boards, etc. This is similar to me running MacOS (on Basilisk/PearPC).... Cheers, Ram > Ram, if you're looking for some room for a VMS box, I'd > *gladly* trade you > my totally decked out VaxStation 3100 for one of your > transputers... ;^> > From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Sep 6 15:22:10 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 16:22:10 -0400 Subject: WPS All in One files... In-Reply-To: <17181.44557.511739.664919@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <0IM2009L5EQL37Z2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <431525F9.6000806@atarimuseum.com> <43152A44.1040707@atarimuseum.com> <431D9F34.3010305@gmail.com> <431DA277.5010008@atarimuseum.com> <17181.44557.511739.664919@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <431DFA72.2040304@atarimuseum.com> I wasn't sure on that, I figured maybe WPS evolved out of Word-11. Curt Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"curt" == curt <@ Atari Museum" > writes: >>>>>> >>>>>> > > curt> Hi Bill, Thats for the info. Is WPS also formatted the same as > curt> Word 11 ? > >Word-11? Is that another name for WPS-Plus? > >(WPS-Plus ran on PDP11 and VAX. Very very slowly and poorly on a >PDP11 because of the Virtual Disease -- you can't write a program for >a 32 bit platform, drop it into a 16 bit platform using essentially >the same architecture, and expect it to work sensibly. It's written >in one of the world's most obscure programming languages -- Koala, >named after K.O. who inflicted it on DEC.) > > paul > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/90 - Release Date: 9/5/2005 From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Sep 6 15:48:54 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 16:48:54 -0400 Subject: Flight Electronics 68K SBC on Ebay Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CF0@cpexchange.olf.com> They used to make a lot of educational kits including transputer boards: http://cgi.ebay.com/FLIGHT-68000-SINGLE-BOARD-COMPUTER-Motorola-68000_W0QQit emZ5238956380QQcategoryZ4193QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Cheers, Ram From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 16:15:34 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 17:15:34 -0400 Subject: VMS Question... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050906143753.03a72b90@mail.30below.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CDB@cpexchange.olf.com> <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CDB@cpexchange.olf.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050906143753.03a72b90@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <431E06F6.5020501@gmail.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: >> Why don't you get a VAXstation 4000/vlc? It's one of the tiniest >> pizza-box cases I've ever seen. > > > Because for some that are tight on space, you still have a monitor, > keyboard, possibly a mouse, a desk to actually stick it all on, etc. You don't need a monitor, keyboard or mouse. It's quite possible to run one with a serial console, so if you have any machine with a serial port, a terminal emulator program and a null-modem cable, you're in business. Peace... Sridhar From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 6 17:05:26 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 17:05:26 Subject: HP82915 Modem In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20050906095148.334f8d04@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050906170526.107f3b24@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:56 PM 9/6/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> At 10:18 PM 9/5/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >I recently won an HP82915 Modem on E-bay (my first, and so far, only >> >purchase there). >> >> Tony? E-bay?? Now I know the end of the world is coming! :-) > >Ineed... > >> >> >> I was suprised to get it for the opening bid, I though >> >I'd have at least one other HP collector to contend with. It is, you see, >> >the internal modem for the HP Integral. >> >> Darn you! I keep a constant watch on E-bay for Integral stuff but I >> didn't see it! > >Lucky me :-) > >It wasn't listed as an Integral part, only as an HP82915 Modem. I was >pretty sure that was the Integral modem, one of my manuals mentions it in >passing. When it came, I was certain. Right size board, right connector >(a DIN 41612 socket), plastic cover over the solder side, etc. > >> >> > >> >Anyway, it's a single PCB that fits into one of the Integral's expansion >> >slots. Cotnains about 20 ICs, most of which I recognise. One odd thing is >> >that the serial chip used is an 8250, a somewhat odd choice for a >> >68000-based machine. >> > >> >Does anyone here know anything about using it? >> >> Not much. It's a 300/1200 Baud modem. ONE sales brochure list it in ONE >> place but give NO details or pictures and never mentions it again. The > >it's not that interesting to look at. It looks like any other Integral >PCB. As I said, about 17 chips, a crystel, a crystal oscillator, a 3 >terminal regualtro, a transformer, a reed relay, a transistor, and some >passives. 2 US-style phone sockets on the bracket, both unmarked (may >just be wired pin-pin, with the appropirate pair of pins also going to >the modem circuitry). > >> service manuals don't give ANY details about it. (It's one of those "If it >> fails, replace the CCA. If it still fails, replace the whole thing." > >Repairing it would probably violate the FCC approval (it would certainly >violate BT appoval for a UK modem). Since I don't intend to connect this >to a public phone line, that doesn't bother me. > >That said, the HP Portable Plus service manual (I have it) does give some >repair procedures and a scheamtic for its internal modem (totally >different ot the IPC one, BTW). I does say that certain components >(mostly resistors) must not be replaced in the field, since this could >affect the FCC approval (incorrect transmitter level, etc). > >> procedures.) To test it they have you install two modems in the IPC and >> plug them into separate phone lines and call one from the other while >> running the diagnostics program. The diagnostics program will report No >> Carrier, No Dialtone and the like but that's all. There no mention of a >> null-modem type cable. > >Well, there won't be any form of null modem cable. There are only 2 wires >to the telephone line, and polarity shouldn't matter. However, we had a >brief discussion here a few weeks ago about linking 2 modems without the >use of a public telephone system, e.g. by buying a small telephone >exchange. I am wondering how much is actually needed for _this_ modem. I'll get the SM out again and tell what errors it reports. That should give you an idea of what signals you have to provide. PS After I replied last time I also got out the manual for the DataComm program. It's NO help either. The only thing interesting that I found in it is that DataComm uses the "CPM style" block data transfer. Other names that they give for it include XModem. Of course that's no use to you unless you're going to run DataComm. Joe > >-tony > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 6 17:31:29 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 17:31:29 Subject: Wahoo! nEW Find! was Re: Mass Memory Unit from Space Shuttle In-Reply-To: <000701c5b189$20d23490$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <3.0.6.16.20050903155922.32d7abbe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050906173129.107f33cc@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:44 PM 9/4/05 -0700, Steve wrote: >Joe, > >I worked for Odetics for many years in Anaheim ( Odetics Spacebourne >Division ). We built two different units for the shuttle. One of them was >the size of a very large black shoe box, and provided memory for the five >IBM main computers. The larger unit ( about the size of a pregnant LP size >laser disk player ) contained a 28 track ( re-configurable as analog or >digital on ANY track ) that was used to record telemetry and info from a ton >of transducers throughout the shuttle. I had several of the smaller boxs and one larger box that I hadn't looked at yet. I just finished examining it and I found that it's one of the larger analog and digital boxs that Steve described. It's labeled "Recorder, Magnetic Tape-Wideband Digital/Analog (Shuttle)". Not only did I get it but I also had some kind of test panel made by Odetics that I also picked up. It turns out to be the test panel for this unit :-) But wait! I also picked up a big bundle of cables that were laying nearby and it turns out that it had ALL of the (intact!) cables for it! After I took the pictures I found a bag of connectors that are labeled as "Shuttle Tape Recorder Connector Savers". Apparently these are connectors that mate with the connectors on the tape recorder to prevent any damage to them when the regular cables are removed. At least one of the smaller units already had those installed when I found it. Pictures at I must be living right! Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 6 16:13:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 22:13:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP82915 Modem In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050906170526.107f3b24@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Sep 6, 5 05:05:26 pm Message-ID: > I'll get the SM out again and tell what errors it reports. That should > give you an idea of what signals you have to provide. The modem itself is relatively unintellegent. There is no microprocessor, for example, on the modem PCB. It appears the Integral's processor can directly program the registers of the transmitter and receiver chips (along, of course, with the 8250 serial chip's registers). The point of that is that the _hardware_ is not going to require a dialtone or anything like that. Of course what the Integral's software requires is another matter. I have no information at all on the modem device driver. I have no idea what you can get it to do using the standard software. > > PS After I replied last time I also got out the manual for the DataComm > program. It's NO help either. The only thing interesting that I found in it Well, I'll need to find some program that supports it... Is there a version of Kermit that would do that, I wonder... > is that DataComm uses the "CPM style" block data transfer. Other names that > they give for it include XModem. Of course that's no use to you unless IIRC, XMdoem was developed from Modem7, which was one of the CP/M file transfer programs. Personally, I'd be happier with kermit, I have many more machines that support it, I have the book for it, etc. But I'd settle for XModem if nothing else is available. > you're going to run DataComm. First problem is finding if I _have_ DataComm. -tony From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 6 18:12:43 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 18:12:43 Subject: Interdata Computer boards ? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050906181243.1087ede8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I found this stuff in a pile of scrap boards last week. I'm not sure who made them since I can't find a manufacturer's name on them but a number of the boards have a tag on them that says "Passed Interdata Processor Test" so perhaps they were made by Interdata. Does anyone know anything about Interdata or know who made these? The names on the files are the name that's etched into the boards and I'm sure that they're some kind of computer boards. The dates on the ICs range from 1973 to early 1976. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 6 18:27:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 18:27:04 Subject: HP82915 Modem In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20050906170526.107f3b24@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050906182704.1087cd70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:13 PM 9/6/05 +0100, you wrote: >> I'll get the SM out again and tell what errors it reports. That should >> give you an idea of what signals you have to provide. > >The modem itself is relatively unintellegent. There is no microprocessor, >for example, on the modem PCB. It appears the Integral's processor can >directly program the registers of the transmitter and receiver chips >(along, of course, with the 8250 serial chip's registers). > >The point of that is that the _hardware_ is not going to require a >dialtone or anything like that. Of course what the Integral's software >requires is another matter. > >I have no information at all on the modem device driver. I have no idea >what you can get it to do using the standard software. I'm not sure and I don't remember seeing anything about it in any of the system manuals. > >> >> PS After I replied last time I also got out the manual for the DataComm >> program. It's NO help either. The only thing interesting that I found in it > >Well, I'll need to find some program that supports it... Is there a >version of Kermit that would do that, I wonder... I don't think HP released one but I'll bet someone somewhere did! > >> is that DataComm uses the "CPM style" block data transfer. Other names that >> they give for it include XModem. Of course that's no use to you unless > >IIRC, XMdoem was developed from Modem7, Yeap, that's one of the other names that they give. which was one of the CP/M file >transfer programs. Personally, I'd be happier with kermit, I have many >more machines that support it, I have the book for it, etc. But I'd >settle for XModem if nothing else is available. > >> you're going to run DataComm. > >First problem is finding if I _have_ DataComm. I have it and I have the manual. It's in the pile of the next stuff to go to Al K to be scanned. There used to be a website of IPC software on the net. I don't if it's still around but I think it is. BINGO! That took about 3 seconds with Google. It has the Diagnostics and Utilities along with the System files but I don't see DataComm. You might E-mail Peter and ask him if he has it and can post it. You should also ask him about Kermit. Joe > >-tony > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 6 17:33:16 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 18:33:16 -0400 Subject: VMS Question... Message-ID: <0IMF00N3Q2MX2GA9@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VMS Question... > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 17:15:34 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Roger Merchberger wrote: > >>> Why don't you get a VAXstation 4000/vlc? It's one of the tiniest >>> pizza-box cases I've ever seen. >> >> >> Because for some that are tight on space, you still have a monitor, >> keyboard, possibly a mouse, a desk to actually stick it all on, etc. > >You don't need a monitor, keyboard or mouse. It's quite possible to run >one with a serial console, so if you have any machine with a serial >port, a terminal emulator program and a null-modem cable, you're in >business. I even skip that. Most of the 3100s (and uVAX in general) can be booted and run headless. So when I need to connect to mine I use a VT1200 Xterm over the network and I suppose a PC could be configured for that. That reduces the working system to a pizza box somewhere in the room on the network. Allison From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue Sep 6 18:09:24 2005 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 19:09:24 -0400 Subject: 11/40, 11/45 INSTRUCTION EXERCISER listing Message-ID: <431E21A4.3020206@nktelco.net> I have been trying to run diagnostic tapes on my PDP-11/40. It seems that I am missing the documentation for many of the CPU diagnostics. Does anyone have a listing for the 11/40 instruction exerciser? My paper tape is MAINDEC-11-DCQKC-A-PB. I load the tape and start it at 200 and it runs for a while and then begins printing out: PASS #0000 PC=015354 PSW=000000 PASS #0000 PC=015356 PSW=000000 PASS #0000 PC=015360 PSW=000000 PASS #0000 PC=015352 PSW=000001 PASS #0000 PC=015354 PSW=000001 PASS #0000 PC=015356 PSW=000001 PASS #0000 PC=015360 PSW=000001 PASS #0000 PC=015352 PSW=000001 ... This seems to run indefinitely. I have tried several different switch setting as described in the PDP-11 Diagnostic Handbook recently online at bitsavers, but it always ended up with this result. Anyone have information on this diagnostic? -chuck From gilcarrick at comcast.net Tue Sep 6 18:29:43 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 18:29:43 -0500 Subject: Interdata Computer boards ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050906181243.1087ede8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200509062339.j86NdtY8061169@keith.ezwind.net> Intedata was a computer mfg. They made a series of machines (I vaguely remember a model 4.) They were somewhat like a 360/30, I seem to recall. Their chief claim to fame was that they were designed to be microprogrammable. I think one of the implementations used a set of wires strung through a series of W-shaped transformers. Passing the wire through 1 side resulted in a 0, and the other side gave a 1. Thus it was possible to change the microprogram and thus extend the instruction set of the computer. Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joe R. > Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 6:13 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Interdata Computer boards ? > > I found this stuff in a pile of scrap boards last week. > I'm not sure who > made them since I can't find a manufacturer's name on them > but a number of the boards have a tag on them that says > "Passed Interdata Processor Test" so perhaps they were made > by Interdata. Does anyone know anything about Interdata or > know who made these? The names on the files are the name > that's etched into the boards and I'm sure that they're some > kind of computer boards. The dates on the ICs range from > 1973 to early 1976. > > Joe > From kth at srv.net Tue Sep 6 18:43:41 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 17:43:41 -0600 Subject: WPS All in One files... In-Reply-To: <431DFA72.2040304@atarimuseum.com> References: <0IM2009L5EQL37Z2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <431525F9.6000806@atarimuseum.com> <43152A44.1040707@atarimuseum.com> <431D9F34.3010305@gmail.com> <431DA277.5010008@atarimuseum.com> <17181.44557.511739.664919@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <431DFA72.2040304@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <431E29AD.2000904@srv.net> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I wasn't sure on that, I figured maybe WPS evolved out of Word-11. > > Word-11 was writted by DPD(?Data Processing Design?) to bring WPS-8 capabilities to the PDP-11. Originally written in basic, it was later partly recoded into something else that compiled into executable code (probably macro and basic+2) to speed it up. DEC later bought it and renamed it to DecWord, iirc. It could communicate with a WPS-8 system and transfer files, but they didn't used the same file format. It was similiar, but Word-11 was based on 8-bit chars, while WPS was based on 12-bit chars. I once started a program to convert Word-11 files to WordPerfect, but don't know what happened to that version. I don't have any Word-11 files anymore anyway. From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Sep 6 19:01:52 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 01:01:52 +0100 Subject: WPS All in One files... In-Reply-To: <431E29AD.2000904@srv.net> Message-ID: <01ef01c5b33f$5b0dcdb0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Kevin Handy wrote: > Word-11 was writted by DPD(?Data Processing Design?) > to bring WPS-8 capabilities to the PDP-11. > Originally written in basic, it was later partly recoded > into something else that compiled into executable code (probably > macro and basic+2) to speed it up. DEC later bought it and renamed it > to DecWord, iirc. I used Word-11 (from the company MASS-11 I thought) back in 1985 or so for some reports. This was under VAX/VMS. I suppose that, for its time, it was not too bad. I was glad to upgrade to TeX though! I don't remember anything by the name of DECword, but there was a DECwrite. DECwrite bore no resemblance to the Word-11 that I knew. As for the original question, somewhere I have a set of 3.5" floppies that claim to implement WPS-PC (or some not entirely dissimilar name). I can probably dig them out at some stage if anyone cares enough about them (and I can find them :-) and they are still readable :-( ). >From what little I do recall about those floppies, it looked like a DEC product. Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 6 19:33:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 17:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 NOV 5-6 Message-ID: A>PIP TTY:=VCF8.DAT ______________________________________________ / \ \ | | | \__/| * VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 * | | | | NOVEMBER 5-6, 2005 | | COMPUTER HISTORY MUSEUM | | MOUNTAIN VIEW, CALIFORNIA | | | | HTTP://WWW.VINTAGE.ORG | | | | * * * | | | | AT VCF 8.0 YOU WILL: | | | | * SEE OLD COMPUTERS | | * SEE PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT OLD COMPUTERS | | * SEE PEOPLE SELLING OLD COMPUTERS | | * . . . AND MORE!!! | | | | | | COME JOIN THE FUN AS WE CELEBRATE THE | | COMPUTERS OF YORE ALL OVER AGAIN. | | | | | | * EVENT NEWS AND INFORMATION | | * VCF 8.0 BBS | | * EXHIBITORS WANTED! | | | | HTTP://WWW.VINTAGE.ORG/2005/MAIN/ | | | | | | __________________________________________|__ |/ \ \ | | | \__/__________________________________________/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 6 19:33:52 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 17:33:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF 8.0 Exhibitors Message-ID: If you're going to exhibit at VCF 8.0 then now is the time to register your exhibit: http://www.vintage.org/2005/main/exhibit.php -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Sep 6 20:05:09 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 20:05:09 -0500 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: <17181.38765.224062.975136@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <43180204.AE0E61BC@cs.ubc.ca> <20050902182507.4d84d012.chenmel@earthlink.net> <17181.38765.224062.975136@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050906200509.0fb86e85.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 6 Sep 2005 09:19:41 -0400 Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Scott" == Scott Stevens writes: > > Scott> On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 00:41:10 -0700 Brent Hilpert > Scott> wrote: > > >> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> > > >> > On Tue, 30 Aug 2005, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> > > >> > > The sad part is that at least two of the control panels look > >> like > > they may have just been stripped from complete units. > >> > > >> > There's nothing terribly special about the 3420 drives. I mean, > >> who > (beside my insane self) is going to want one? And if so, > >> for what, > other than gawking at it? > >> > >> Yeah, well, they're just neat, that's all. Side-by-side-reel > >> vacuum-column tape drives: #2 on the list of iconic aspects of > >> early computers, although I take #it from it's appearance and what > >> you and William are saying that these (3420s) are late models(last > >> of the breed?). > >> > > Scott> Where I worked, in the late 70's, it was the NEWER drives that > Scott> had vacuum columns. The old drives were the ones I had to > Scott> deal with the most. It was a COM facility so the only thing > Scott> we ever did was read tapes, but they came from all over the > Scott> place (different customers). Also, it was only the NEWEST > Scott> drive that had 6250 bpi. Mostly we dealt with 800 and 1600 > Scott> tapes, and with drives that had switchable 7/9 track heads. I > Scott> wouldn't call vacuum column drives an icon of EARLY > Scott> computers... > > Curious. The old IBM 360/44 I used, and the Cyber 73 with old slow 7 > track tape drives, both had vacuum columns. The first couple of > magtape drives for PDP11s from DEC all had vacuum columns. It wasn't > until the TS03 and TS11 ("tape stretch 11") that DEC tried to do it on > the cheap without vacuum columns. > > paul > Well, I only worked as a 'tape mounting monkey' in a peripheral industry (Computer Micrographics- a COM shop) and only for a few years, from '79-83, so I just assumed that the few precious 'vacuum column' drives we had (operators did things like jam in big wads of Texwipes to force the tape harder onto the head to get reads from difficult tapes on some of the terrible drives we had) were the newer ones. Most of the drives were mechanical tension drives which I assumed at the time were the 'old dogs.' So I'm probably wrong. It's been years since I mounted a tape. Incidentally, when I started it was my first 'big' $4 an hour job. From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Sep 6 20:07:33 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 20:07:33 -0500 Subject: JF's calculations for PRIME numbers In-Reply-To: <431CF91B.5030602@compsys.to> References: <002301c5b193$fd5f3070$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <431BB03F.7090408@compsys.to> <002b01c5b234$c6a0d600$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <431C838A.4090009@jetnet.ab.ca> <431C910E.3080108@imagination.com> <431CF91B.5030602@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20050906200733.3e7d5a82.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 22:04:11 -0400 "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > First of all, the reason is "FOR FUN", the most practical of all > reasons. > Of course! A prime number generator is always one of the first programs I code up on a new machine. A 'benchmark' of sorts. From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Sep 6 20:15:51 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 20:15:51 -0500 Subject: VMS Question... In-Reply-To: <431E06F6.5020501@gmail.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CDB@cpexchange.olf.com> <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CDB@cpexchange.olf.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050906143753.03a72b90@mail.30below.com> <431E06F6.5020501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050906201551.765f6933.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 17:15:34 -0400 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > >> Why don't you get a VAXstation 4000/vlc? It's one of the tiniest > >> pizza-box cases I've ever seen. > > > > > > Because for some that are tight on space, you still have a monitor, > > keyboard, possibly a mouse, a desk to actually stick it all on, etc. > > You don't need a monitor, keyboard or mouse. It's quite possible to > run one with a serial console, so if you have any machine with a > serial port, a terminal emulator program and a null-modem cable, > you're in business. > > Peace... Sridhar Get a MicroVAX 3100 like the one I have. Small footprint, and it's IMPOSSIBLE to connect a monitor and keyboard to it, because it has no frame buffer. (One of the definitions of a 'real computer' is that it _must_ be possible to operate out-of-the-box, without special tricks, without a keyboard and monitor) From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 20:23:36 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:23:36 -0400 Subject: VMS Question... In-Reply-To: <20050906201551.765f6933.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CDB@cpexchange.olf.com> <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545CDB@cpexchange.olf.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050906143753.03a72b90@mail.30below.com> <431E06F6.5020501@gmail.com> <20050906201551.765f6933.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <431E4118.2060606@gmail.com> Scott Stevens wrote: >>You don't need a monitor, keyboard or mouse. It's quite possible to >>run one with a serial console, so if you have any machine with a >>serial port, a terminal emulator program and a null-modem cable, >>you're in business. > > Get a MicroVAX 3100 like the one I have. Small footprint, and it's > IMPOSSIBLE to connect a monitor and keyboard to it, because it has no > frame buffer. Except it's a whole lot bigger than a 4000/vlc. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 6 20:35:22 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:35:22 -0400 Subject: VMS Question... Message-ID: <0IMF0080VB2EOCL4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VMS Question... > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:23:36 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Scott Stevens wrote: > >>>You don't need a monitor, keyboard or mouse. It's quite possible to >>>run one with a serial console, so if you have any machine with a >>>serial port, a terminal emulator program and a null-modem cable, >>>you're in business. >> >> Get a MicroVAX 3100 like the one I have. Small footprint, and it's >> IMPOSSIBLE to connect a monitor and keyboard to it, because it has no >> frame buffer. > >Except it's a whole lot bigger than a 4000/vlc. > >Peace... Sridhar I thought the 4000 as also BA42 (18Wx16Dx4H) like most of the 3100s (save for M20E). I consider the BA42 box easily hid. Allison From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 20:55:30 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:55:30 -0400 Subject: VMS Question... In-Reply-To: <0IMF0080VB2EOCL4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IMF0080VB2EOCL4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <431E4892.6050803@gmail.com> Allison wrote: >>Subject: Re: VMS Question... >> From: Sridhar Ayengar >> Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:23:36 -0400 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >>Scott Stevens wrote: >> >> >>>>You don't need a monitor, keyboard or mouse. It's quite possible to >>>>run one with a serial console, so if you have any machine with a >>>>serial port, a terminal emulator program and a null-modem cable, >>>>you're in business. >>> >>>Get a MicroVAX 3100 like the one I have. Small footprint, and it's >>>IMPOSSIBLE to connect a monitor and keyboard to it, because it has no >>>frame buffer. >> >>Except it's a whole lot bigger than a 4000/vlc. >> >>Peace... Sridhar > > > I thought the 4000 as also BA42 (18Wx16Dx4H) like most of the 3100s > (save for M20E). I consider the BA42 box easily hid. The 4000/60 and 4000/90 are similar in size to the 3100. The 4000/vlc is *much* smaller. If I'm not quite mistaken, there was once a design for a VAX laptop using a 4000/vlc motherboard. If you really want to know what chassis it's in, I can dig out the info. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 6 20:59:45 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:59:45 -0400 Subject: VMS Question... Message-ID: <0IMF00N0VC7122Z9@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VMS Question... > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:55:30 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >The 4000/60 and 4000/90 are similar in size to the 3100. The 4000/vlc >is *much* smaller. If I'm not quite mistaken, there was once a design >for a VAX laptop using a 4000/vlc motherboard. If you really want to >know what chassis it's in, I can dig out the info. > >Peace... Sridhar If you can point me to a picture of the 4000vlc that would do. Most of the 3100 boards are fairly small but by time you add the 3.5" scsi disks and power supply it grows but the box is still 40% air. Allison From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 6 21:05:37 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 22:05:37 -0400 Subject: VMS Question... In-Reply-To: <0IMF00N0VC7122Z9@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IMF00N0VC7122Z9@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <431E4AF1.1040308@gmail.com> Allison wrote: >>Subject: Re: VMS Question... >> From: Sridhar Ayengar >> Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 21:55:30 -0400 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >>The 4000/60 and 4000/90 are similar in size to the 3100. The 4000/vlc >>is *much* smaller. If I'm not quite mistaken, there was once a design >>for a VAX laptop using a 4000/vlc motherboard. If you really want to >>know what chassis it's in, I can dig out the info. >> >>Peace... Sridhar > > > If you can point me to a picture of the 4000vlc that would do. Most of the > 3100 boards are fairly small but by time you add the 3.5" scsi disks and > power supply it grows but the box is still 40% air. > > Allison > Here's a couple good ones, courtesy of my mastery of Google-fu http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/images/vlc-closed_lg.jpg http://vaxbase.openecs.org/VAXstation4000-VLC/VS4000VLC-3.jpg Peace... Sridhar From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 6 22:06:01 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 22:06:01 Subject: HP Viper and Hyper Viper webpage? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050906220601.3fc78100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anyone know what happened to the Viper and HyperViper webpage that used to be on HP's website? I can't find it. If it's down does anyone have a copy of it? I'm trying to help some guy out with the cards and he knows nothing about them so that page would help give him some background on the cards. Joe From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Sep 6 21:39:12 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 22:39:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Interdata Computer boards ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050906181243.1087ede8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > I found this stuff in a pile of scrap boards last week. > I'm not sure who made them since > I can't find a manufacturer's name on them but a number of the boards have > a tag on them that says "Passed Interdata Processor Test" so perhaps they > were made by Interdata. Does anyone know anything about Interdata or know > who made these? The names on the files are the name that's etched into the > boards and I'm sure that they're some kind of computer boards. The dates > on the ICs range from 1973 to early 1976. Interdata was a fairly important minicomputer maker in the early 1970s, but faded by the end of the decade. They were purchased by Perkin-Elmer, and some Interdata 7s are tagged as Perkin-Elmers. There is still a user group called Interchange, that keeps the few survivors going. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Sep 6 22:18:49 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 23:18:49 -0400 Subject: WPS All in One files... In-Reply-To: <01ef01c5b33f$5b0dcdb0$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <01ef01c5b33f$5b0dcdb0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <431E5C19.8070108@atarimuseum.com> Hey, if they work on a PC (In DOS I assume) I'd be very interested. Curt a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: >Kevin Handy wrote: > > >>Word-11 was writted by DPD(?Data Processing Design?) >>to bring WPS-8 capabilities to the PDP-11. >>Originally written in basic, it was later partly recoded >>into something else that compiled into executable code (probably >>macro and basic+2) to speed it up. DEC later bought it and renamed it >>to DecWord, iirc. >> >> > >I used Word-11 (from the company MASS-11 I thought) back in 1985 or >so for some reports. This was under VAX/VMS. I suppose that, for its >time, it was not too bad. I was glad to upgrade to TeX though! > >I don't remember anything by the name of DECword, but there was >a DECwrite. DECwrite bore no resemblance to the Word-11 that I >knew. > >As for the original question, somewhere I have a set of >3.5" floppies that claim to implement WPS-PC (or some >not entirely dissimilar name). I can probably dig them >out at some stage if anyone cares enough about them >(and I can find them :-) and they are still readable :-( ). > >>From what little I do recall about those floppies, it >looked like a DEC product. > >Antonio > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/90 - Release Date: 9/5/2005 From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 6 23:11:23 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 23:11:23 -0500 Subject: HP 21xx update References: <431DD548.2070309@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <016901c5b362$35e3b6d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> You wrote... > I've fixed the visible issues with the HP-2116A and powered it up slowly > with a variac with a minium of cards installed. Ok, where did you find a variac that supports that kinda amp load? :) > Fans spin up ok, I get a couple of the power circuits live, but fuse F8 > blows and the rest of the power circuits do no come up. No lights on the > front panel etc. I'm guessing fuse F8 blowing has something to do with that ;) I haven't a clue, the power system in 2116 is likely pretty different I think from what I'm used to. Now, if someone wants to donate an HP2116 to me, I'll get all familiar with it. Promise ;) > I don't have any manuals specific to the > HP-2108A here, but I suppose I should try some of the memory diagnostics > routines from the 2100 or 2116 to check things out. And you don't need anything specific to the 2108. Look in the CE handbook. Common data I think is the section (going from memory). There are quite a few short ditty's there that you can enter via the front panel and use to test the system for basic function before heading to diagnostics that require certain things to work. Most of the ditty's there are expressly designed to test the functions that are required to load diagnostics, so there is little or no guessing. Make sure you run the diagnostics (from media) in the order put forth. Once you get past the ditty's in the CE book, let me know what media you have to load diags on. I'll get you a diagnostic library and you can learn the joys of the Diagnostic Configurator :) Once that's up, you can test most peripherals and I/O interfaces quite thoroughly. > Any suggestions on getting pc based paper tape images over to real HP > hardware? Since you expressly limited it to pc based paper tape images... there is a solution. Look at the 264X terminal loader rom. It speaks a trivial protocol to get binary images into the cpu. You could write a very simple script to download the binary files on the pc to the memory of the 2108. > I do have a paper tape punch, but no docs on it. Also I don't currently > have any blank media. I could send you a little bit of blank paper tape if you need it. Jay From Tim at Rikers.org Wed Sep 7 00:11:52 2005 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 23:11:52 -0600 Subject: HP 21xx update In-Reply-To: <016901c5b362$35e3b6d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <431DD548.2070309@Rikers.org> <016901c5b362$35e3b6d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <431E7698.9080607@Rikers.org> Jay West wrote: > You wrote... > >> I've fixed the visible issues with the HP-2116A and powered it up slowly >> with a variac with a minium of cards installed. > > Ok, where did you find a variac that supports that kinda amp load? :) Heh. borrowed one from TI, and then forgot I had, and the packers packed it up. Now I have a brick I probably need to mail back to texas. =/ >> Fans spin up ok, I get a couple of the power circuits live, but fuse F8 >> blows and the rest of the power circuits do no come up. No lights on the >> front panel etc. > > I'm guessing fuse F8 blowing has something to do with that ;) I haven't > a clue, the power system in 2116 is likely pretty different I think from > what I'm used to. Now, if someone wants to donate an HP2116 to me, I'll > get all familiar with it. Promise ;) I'll get right on that. =) >> I don't have any manuals specific to the >> HP-2108A here, but I suppose I should try some of the memory diagnostics >> routines from the 2100 or 2116 to check things out. > > And you don't need anything specific to the 2108. Look in the CE > handbook. CE handbook on line someplace? This one? http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/5950-3767_M-E-F_CEhbk_Jul84.pdf Grabbing. Thanx. > Common data I think is the section (going from memory). There > are quite a few short ditty's there that you can enter via the front > panel and use to test the system for basic function before heading to > diagnostics that require certain things to work. Most of the ditty's > there are expressly designed to test the functions that are required to > load diagnostics, so there is little or no guessing. Make sure you run > the diagnostics (from media) in the order put forth. Once you get past > the ditty's in the CE book, let me know what media you have to load > diags on. I'll get you a diagnostic library and you can learn the joys > of the Diagnostic Configurator :) Once that's up, you can test most > peripherals and I/O interfaces quite thoroughly. Well, that's the issue. I don't have any media working yet. My paper tape reader might work. I've not tried reading from it yet. >> Any suggestions on getting pc based paper tape images over to real HP >> hardware? > > Since you expressly limited it to pc based paper tape images... there is > a solution. Look at the 264X terminal loader rom. It speaks a trivial > protocol to get binary images into the cpu. You could write a very > simple script to download the binary files on the pc to the memory of > the 2108. Sounds like a great idea. Is the source for this ROM around someplace? Also, what does an ASR-33 do to load tapes? or perhaps it's tape drive cannot be used for diags/booting? (I don't have an ASR-33, I just figured it might be easy to emulate) >> I do have a paper tape punch, but no docs on it. Also I don't currently >> have any blank media. > > I could send you a little bit of blank paper tape if you need it. Yes please! My punch is not an HP, so I doubt I'll find docs. It's a "Motorized Tape Punch - Model 2 - Commercial Controls Corporation - Rochester 2, New York" http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_133155 http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_133110 http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_133239 > Jay Thanx for the help! -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 7 01:21:26 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 23:21:26 -0700 Subject: Interdata Computer boards ? Message-ID: perhaps they were made by Interdata. - you are correct, sir! I'm guessing it's a model 8/16 board set 35-446 on CPU HI should be something to go by in the Interdata print sets. From ceby2 at csc.com Wed Sep 7 03:10:43 2005 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 09:10:43 +0100 Subject: S/36 In-Reply-To: <200509031700.j83H029V028876@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Scott -- Normally I jump on anything S/36 on the list, but life's kept me busy enough to distract me. I collect S/36 equipment, and I have most of the manuals, some of them scanned. Consider me a resource. A couple of answers to your questions: Q: Is this like the AS/400, where if it doesn't come with an OS and firmware disk it's toast? A: No, thankfully. So long as you get the media, you're alright. There's even a way to hack around security if it's absolutely necessary. Q: What sort of drives does it take? A: As far as I know (and I haven't really explored the topic) it takes model specific drives. The file system seems proprietary to the hardware. Sellam may know different. I defer to the great one on this. Q: Is it 220v only? A: That depends on the country of origin and the model. There were four main series: 5360 - 220v only as it was a datacenter class system, 5362 - this was the deskside type with a country default power requirement 220v/110v, 5363 - another deskside but later and switchable if memory serves, and the 5364 - this one may also have been switchable, it's a desktop unit... mine's in storage or I'd check for you. Q: Any other weirdness? A: Gee... um where to begin. The system's totally unlike VMS/Unix/PDP OSs. I suppose the weirdness depends on your perspective. The basis of comparison is the AS400 since that's what superceded it. AS400 added a relational database system and more systems' management. But the underlying operating systems are rather similar. On the other hand, the hardware's totally different. S/36 (and this is distinct from AS/36) is a 16bit operating system with dual CPUs, one dedicated IO/Memory management. It's a flat address space. The system was targeted as a total office solution, and indeed it offered a very modern set of capabilities. The original strategy of office networking was based on PCs talking to a S/36. Files could be shared, there was e-mail, word processing, and a database/development analogous of non-relational MS-Access. You could pretty rapidly create tables and then build forms around them. It had it's own development language RPG, which was analagous to a VBA as it was really built to further enable the database application development. It originated as a reporting language on earlier IBM systems. Other languages were supported, Basic and Cobol come to mind. Sorry, no C. The whole thing's rather interesting when you're used to the file system based world and open systems. IMHOP its well worth playing around with if you have the wherewithal to do so. If you're into hacking it may be disappointing as it's a very closed and proprietary solution base. But if you get off on clever technology design, the rapid deploy piece of office automation is fascinating, and it does have a number of mainframe centric networking solutions available to it in addition to the twinax native to this range. Regards Colin Eby From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Sep 7 09:05:47 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 09:05:47 Subject: Interdata Computer boards ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050907090547.0f173cca@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:21 PM 9/6/05 -0700, Al wrote: >perhaps they >were made by Interdata. > >- > >you are correct, sir! > >I'm guessing it's a model 8/16 board set >35-446 on CPU HI Bingo! That's it. Here's some more info about the boards in the pictures for anyone that's interested. Picture name Board name notes ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- Clock - TTY Controller = Line Frequency Clock CCA on LH side TTY Controller on right ICs dated 1974 PTR Interface = Paper Tape Reader - Punch Interface ICs dated 1976 CPU Lo = CPU LO ICs dated early 1975 Passed Processor Test 1994 Current Loop = Line Frequency Clock (right) & Current Loop Interface (Left) ICs dated 1974 & 1975 PT Interface = Paper Tape Reader - Punch Interface (2nd pair) ICs dated 1976 CPU Hi = CPU HI ICs dated 1973. Passed Processor Test 1994 & OK 5/21/1980. Universal = Universal Logic Board ICs dated 1975 CPU Hi 2 = CPU HI (second board) ICs dated 1972 to 1974. Passed Processor Test 1994 core = ??? Almost certainly core memory Passed Memory Test 1994. ICs dated 1974. CPU Lo 2 = CPU Lo (second board) ICs dated early 1975 Passed Processor Test 1994 Joe should be something to go >by in the Interdata print sets. > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Sep 7 09:24:15 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 09:24:15 Subject: CCC was Re: HP 21xx update In-Reply-To: <431E7698.9080607@Rikers.org> References: <016901c5b362$35e3b6d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <431DD548.2070309@Rikers.org> <016901c5b362$35e3b6d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050907092415.330faa62@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:11 PM 9/6/05 -0600, Tim wrote: > >Yes please! My punch is not an HP, so I doubt I'll find docs. It's a >"Motorized Tape Punch - Model 2 - Commercial Controls Corporation - >Rochester 2, New York" CCC changed their name to Friden in the early 1960s so look for Friden docs. FWIW CCC used to be National Postal Meter and they made M1 carbines during WW II. In early 1945 they saw that the end of the war was near and they wanted a more commercail name so they changed their name to CCC. Joe > >http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_133155 >http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_133110 >http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_133239 > >> Jay > >Thanx for the help! >-- >Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org >Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ >BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! > From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 7 08:33:55 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 09:33:55 -0400 Subject: WPS All in One files... References: <431E29AD.2000904@srv.net> <01ef01c5b33f$5b0dcdb0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <17182.60483.689359.753243@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "arcarlini" == arcarlini writes: arcarlini> Kevin Handy wrote: >> Word-11 was writted by DPD(?Data Processing Design?) to bring >> WPS-8 capabilities to the PDP-11. Originally written in basic, it >> was later partly recoded into something else that compiled into >> executable code (probably macro and basic+2) to speed it up. DEC >> later bought it and renamed it to DecWord, iirc. arcarlini> I used Word-11 (from the company MASS-11 I thought) back arcarlini> in 1985 or so for some reports. This was under VAX/VMS. I arcarlini> suppose that, for its time, it was not too bad. I was glad arcarlini> to upgrade to TeX though! arcarlini> I don't remember anything by the name of DECword, but arcarlini> there was a DECwrite. DECwrite bore no resemblance to the arcarlini> Word-11 that I knew. DECwrite was a GUI document creation program for VMS/Xwindows only. According to rumor it was based on a very very ancient version of FrameMaker. It did become reasonably capable (certainly better than MS Word of that era) before it was canceled. We used it extensively in the DEC network architecture group (replacing Runoff), which may be one reason why DECnet Phase V specs are not available anywhere. DECword does ring a bell, but it sounds like a late name for what was WPS-8. The PDP-11 and VMS analog was WPS-Plus, and that was written from scratch, in a very short amount of time, at DEC. I never used it on VMS, but did suffer with it on a PDP-11 (Pro under P/OS, in fact). It worked, and it was reasonably functionally compatible with WPS-8, but the performance was pathetic. paul From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 08:54:54 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 06:54:54 -0700 Subject: HP 21xx update In-Reply-To: <431E7698.9080607@Rikers.org> References: <431DD548.2070309@Rikers.org> <016901c5b362$35e3b6d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <431E7698.9080607@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90509070654bfc3ee6@mail.gmail.com> > > Since you expressly limited it to pc based paper tape images... there is > > a solution. Look at the 264X terminal loader rom. It speaks a trivial > > protocol to get binary images into the cpu. You could write a very > > simple script to download the binary files on the pc to the memory of > > the 2108. > > Sounds like a great idea. Is the source for this ROM around someplace? > Table B-2 12992C Loader ROM Listing for HP 2644/45/48 Cartridge Tapes http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/1000/12992-90001_loaderRomsApr86.pdf From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 7 09:18:52 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 15:18:52 +0100 Subject: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 NOV 5-6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <431EF6CC.2050408@yahoo.co.uk> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > \__/| * VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 * | > | | > | NOVEMBER 5-6, 2005 | > | COMPUTER HISTORY MUSEUM | > | MOUNTAIN VIEW, CALIFORNIA | Hmm, how far is California from deepest Minnesota? I'll still be in the right country then at least ;-) Could well be road trip time... From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Wed Sep 7 09:35:37 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 16:35:37 +0200 Subject: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 NOV 5-6 In-Reply-To: <431EF6CC.2050408@yahoo.co.uk> References: Message-ID: <431F16D9.26228.63078169@localhost> Am 7 Sep 2005 15:18 meinte Jules Richardson: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > \__/| * VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 * | > > | | > > | NOVEMBER 5-6, 2005 | > > | COMPUTER HISTORY MUSEUM | > > | MOUNTAIN VIEW, CALIFORNIA | > Hmm, how far is California from deepest Minnesota? I'll still be in the > right country then at least ;-) Could well be road trip time... You mean, people have settled there by now, and roads have been build? Don'tget me wrong, it might have been, although, not even the Lewis and Clark expdition has touched that area :) SCNR H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 10:06:27 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 08:06:27 -0700 Subject: HP Viper and Hyper Viper webpage? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050906220601.3fc78100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050906220601.3fc78100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e905090708062d4a20f1@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 22:06:01, Joe R. wrote: > Does anyone know what happened to the Viper and HyperViper webpage that > used to be on HP's website? I can't find it. If it's down does anyone have > a copy of it? I'm trying to help some guy out with the cards and he knows > nothing about them so that page would help give him some background on the > cards. > > Joe Archive it while you can... ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/old/vp_over.html ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/binfiles/old/mcp/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Sep 7 10:08:55 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 10:08:55 -0500 Subject: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 NOV 5-6 In-Reply-To: <431EF6CC.2050408@yahoo.co.uk> References: <431EF6CC.2050408@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200509071008.55283.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 07 September 2005 09:18, Jules Richardson wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > \__/| * VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 * | > > > > | NOVEMBER 5-6, 2005 | > > | COMPUTER HISTORY MUSEUM | > > | MOUNTAIN VIEW, CALIFORNIA | > > Hmm, how far is California from deepest Minnesota? I'll still be in > the right country then at least ;-) Could well be road trip time... Google says 2300mi from Hibbing, MN to Mountain View. Plane tickets would be a 'better idea'. At 30mpg and $3/gal, that's $230 each way for gas alone. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Sep 7 10:30:46 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 11:30:46 -0400 Subject: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 NOV 5-6 In-Reply-To: <200509071008.55283.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <431EF6CC.2050408@yahoo.co.uk> <431EF6CC.2050408@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050907112708.01bddc10@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Patrick Finnegan may have mentioned these words: >On Wednesday 07 September 2005 09:18, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > \__/| * VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 * | > > > > > > | NOVEMBER 5-6, 2005 | > > > | COMPUTER HISTORY MUSEUM | > > > | MOUNTAIN VIEW, CALIFORNIA | > > > > Hmm, how far is California from deepest Minnesota? I'll still be in > > the right country then at least ;-) Could well be road trip time... > >Google says 2300mi from Hibbing, MN to Mountain View. Plane tickets >would be a 'better idea'. At 30mpg and $3/gal, that's $230 each way >for gas alone. Well, factor in cost of rental car, not seeing some really great sights along the way... and I'd still agree. ;-) Besides, think of the *massive* sleep deprivation - what's so fun about being dead-arse tired whilst trying to enjoy the function? Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 10:50:05 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 08:50:05 -0700 Subject: HP Viper and Hyper Viper webpage? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050906220601.3fc78100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050906220601.3fc78100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e905090708504ffc5b79@mail.gmail.com> It looks like the first page doesn't link to the other pages, so grab those too if you haven't already found them. ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/old/vp_over.html ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/old/vp0_bugs.html ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/old/vp1_bugs.html ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/old/vp2_bugs.html From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Sep 7 12:03:58 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 12:03:58 Subject: HP Viper and Hyper Viper webpage? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e905090708504ffc5b79@mail.gmail.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050906220601.3fc78100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20050906220601.3fc78100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050907120358.18ef7bea@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Thanks Glen! Joe At 08:50 AM 9/7/05 -0700, you wrote: >It looks like the first page doesn't link to the other pages, so grab >those too if you haven't already found them. > >ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/old/vp_over.html > >ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/old/vp0_bugs.html >ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/old/vp1_bugs.html >ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/old/vp2_bugs.html > > From bdobyns at gmail.com Mon Sep 5 10:58:32 2005 From: bdobyns at gmail.com (Barry A Dobyns) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 08:58:32 -0700 Subject: Rare IIfx Accelerator? In-Reply-To: <008e01c5b03d$4769d920$0500fea9@game> References: <008e01c5b03d$4769d920$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <114204fa0509050858d87c1d6@mail.gmail.com> The Tokamac was designed and sold by my good buddy (and best man at my wedding 20 years ago) Andrew Donoho, and he keeps up a web page for it at http://www.ddg.com/TokaMac/index.html -barry On 9/2/05, Teo Zenios wrote: > > Today I got a Mac Nubus card in the mail and was told it was a Tokamac > Accelerator. The Card has written on it : Donoho Design Group, Inc > Copyright > 1992 PN: 04-106 with a hand written paper tag on the back (219-2525-360). > Its a full length card with 2 connectors (NUBUS and PDS inline). The card > fits in my IIfx perfectly. Besides the 68040/33 processor there are 3 > chips > labeled "Toruc", "Nexus", "Fusor" on the card (xilinx xc 3030-100 type > chips). > > If this card the Tokamac IIfx or do I have something else? If so where can > I > find drivers for this beast (havn't had any luck so far with google and > old > Mac driver sites). > > Cards of this vintage are usualy hard to find drivers for, any old Mac > packrats here? > > Sincs its from 1992 and not a common part I assume its ontopic to ask > about > it. > > > > > -- Barry A Dobyns, barry at dobyns.com blog: http://nothingtodeclare.com photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dobyns/ podcast: http://nothingtodeclare.com/podcast/dircaster.php From mamcfadden at cmh.edu Mon Sep 5 14:15:56 2005 From: mamcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike, A) Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 14:15:56 -0500 Subject: more stuff in Kansas City, 20 new 2400' magtapes, 4 DSSI drives, microvax2000 Message-ID: 4 RF31T DSSI drives with carriers and front panels 2 cases sealed precision magnetics 2400 foot 89 track magtapes microvax 2000 with external disk drive Make me an offer on the microvax 2000. The DSSI drives and tapes are free to whoever pays shiopping. m a m c f a d d e n atatat c m h dotdotdot e d u From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Mon Sep 5 22:04:21 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2005 23:04:21 -0400 Subject: Paging Sellam, need to talk to you... Message-ID: <6.2.5.1.2.20050905230159.033f48c8@boff-net.dhs.org> I know Sellam is on this list often, and I am sorry for posting this to the list, but I can't seem to get through to him as of late, possibly, my address is being filtered for some reason. If you can Sellam, please contact me off-list as we need to discuss something privately. Thank you, John Boffemmyer IV -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/89 - Release Date: 9/2/2005 From techart-corp at lowcostcommunications.net Tue Sep 6 00:38:38 2005 From: techart-corp at lowcostcommunications.net (TechArt) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 00:38:38 -0500 Subject: More Cadnetix notes reply >> Message-ID: <431D2B5E.6010304@lowcostcommunications.net> Hi, I have extensively been familiar with all the Cadnetix workstation, Auto-routers, servers and PC version all of which I own or have owned. Further I my be one source for some of the most complete set of manuals from inside engineering at Cadnetix through many notebooks of personal trials these machines were put through. Feel free to contact me if you are serious about using these to design PCB's. Regards, D.W. From trag at io.com Tue Sep 6 13:37:36 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:37:36 -0500 Subject: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? In-Reply-To: <200509061710.j86H7Cql057598@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509061710.j86H7Cql057598@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I imagine this topic has come up before, so my apologies in advance. Do folks have a recommendation for suppliers of circuit board making materials, or a good source of such information? I've found a number of web sites and read them. The difficulty is in knowing which place has better/cheaper/easier supplies than other places--knowledge which generally comes with experience. And several of my other questions are the kinds that generally aren't answered on websites but that one learns from experience. One complication is that I want to make a few different designs which need to be on .050" thick board. Standard board these days is .062", which rules out the affordable proto-type services that I have used in the past. In fact, I have not been able to find precoated board (photoresist coated) in the .050" thickness. So I will either need to use a liquid photoresist or try a toner transfer system. That raises other questions. Are the Toner Transfer Systems reliable (doesn't leave broken/smeared traces)? What resolution (line and spacing thickness) can one generally get with them? The TTS would be simpler. I wouldn't need liquid PR, developer and stripper, plus a UV source. If the TTS is not servicable, then I'll try the liquid photoresist. Would it be better to simply spray on, or should I try to rig a spinner? Do the developer and/or stripper usually turn out to be some commonly (cheaply) available chemical? I would prefer to avoid paying $6+ for a small bottle if I can avoid it. Thank you for any info or pointers to info. Jeff Walther From trag at io.com Tue Sep 6 13:20:02 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2005 13:20:02 -0500 Subject: 64 pin SIMM (Mac IIFX) Specs? In-Reply-To: <200509061710.j86H7Cql057598@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509061710.j86H7Cql057598@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 21:11:02 +0100 (BST) >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >> >Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 00:17:50 +0100 (BST) >> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >> >> >Most, if not all, of the single-bit-wide DRAM chips (4164, 41256, etc) >> >had separate DIN and DOUT pins. >> What is the point in using them separately? Was it for the case >> where the destination of a read is different from the source of a >> write? >YEs, that was the idea. It's no use if you want to link the data pins to >a bidirectional bus. >I suspect the _real_ reason for it was that there was a spare pin on the >package and it didn't ever make life more difficult to have separate DIN >and DOUT pins (oyu could just strap them together externally if you >wanted a bidirectional data pin). I'll be getting a IIfx on Thursday and I can confirm (I hope) that the DIN and DOUT are common on the mother board at that time. Your advice has given me hope that this is much more doable than I feared. If they're tied, then I should be able to build a 16MB SIMM using two 16M X 4 chips. My concern was that the X4 chips do not have separate DIN and DOUT and I wasn't certain if the IIfx actually needed the separation. I think I have some 16M X 1 chips which would work in either case, but my supply of 16M X 1 chips is much smaller. If the DIN and DOUT are common on the MB, and I use 16M X 4 chips, I assume that I should either use the DIN pin or the DOUT pin on the SIMM but not both? Using both could result in different length datapaths which remerge, possibly causing interference from slightly out of phase signals. The difference in length probably wouldn't affect the timing much, but still... It would still be handy if someone has a mechanical drawing of the 64 pin SIMMs. I can derive it from a physical example, but I'm less likely to get the actual center measurement and tolerances correct that way. Hmmm. I'll check around and see if any of the socket manufacturers are still selling a 64 pin SIMM socket. If so, I should be able to derive the SIMM dimensions from the socket datasheet. Jeff Walther From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Wed Sep 7 11:43:13 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 12:43:13 -0400 Subject: OT: 6.8Ghz Quantum-Optical Notebook Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545D10@cpexchange.olf.com> Don't know if this is a hoax, but they reportedly produced the 1st 6.8GHz Quatum-Optical Notebook running Windows XP: http://atomchip.com/_wsn/page4.html Ram From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Sep 7 11:58:30 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 12:58:30 -0400 Subject: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? In-Reply-To: References: <200509061710.j86H7Cql057598@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200509061710.j86H7Cql057598@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050907123640.03a8d080@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jeff Walther may have mentioned these words: >I imagine this topic has come up before, so my apologies in advance. > >Do folks have a recommendation for suppliers of circuit board making >materials, or a good source of such information? I got my stuff at http://www.circuitspecialists.com/ Best prices & selection I could find and they have 1/16", 1/32" and 1/64" thickness pre-sensitized photoresist boards. They even have "how-to" books for beginners on making photoresist boards & whatnot. http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/7783 (Link to the beginners book I mentioned - I bought it and it's a very good read.) I have not yet had time to build the projects for which I purchased my shiznit, but I should be able to before Xmas, so I'll know a lot more soon... ;-) I am not affiliated with the company other than being a (so far) satisfied customer. >In fact, I have not been able to find precoated board (photoresist coated) >in the .050" thickness. So I will either need to use a liquid photoresist >or try a toner transfer system. I dunno about 0.050", but would the 1/32" thickness be close enough? (That's 0.03125" thickness, if you can believe the Winders calcaputer applet ;-) >That raises other questions. Are the Toner Transfer Systems reliable No. Especially since the toner xfer systems were designed around toner that melts around 300 deg. C... a lot of the 'microfine' toner printers melt their toner a *lot* hotter than that, and don't get good adhesion to the xfer sheets. (Most laser printers made in the last 5-8 years are all microfine toner - anything 600dpi+ will be.) The last time I tried (5+ years ago) I used 10 sheets to *finally* get one that didn't require metric buttloads of touchups with a resist pen. >If the TTS is not servicable, then I'll try the liquid photoresist. I'd say to try pre-sensitized... but that's just me. > Would it be better to simply spray on, or should I try to rig a spinner? > >Do the developer and/or stripper usually turn out to be some commonly >(cheaply) available chemical? I would prefer to avoid paying $6+ for a >small bottle if I can avoid it. One kg of ammonium persulfate will make 4 liters of etchant, and it's around $18 USD (not including shipping) - not sure if you'll be able to find it much cheaper than that, but if you do, let everyone here know! ;-) The other chemical used is ferric chloride. Hope that helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 7 12:10:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 10:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 NOV 5-6 In-Reply-To: <200509071008.55283.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 07 September 2005 09:18, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > \__/| * VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 * | > > > > > > | NOVEMBER 5-6, 2005 | > > > | COMPUTER HISTORY MUSEUM | > > > | MOUNTAIN VIEW, CALIFORNIA | > > > > Hmm, how far is California from deepest Minnesota? I'll still be in > > the right country then at least ;-) Could well be road trip time... > > Google says 2300mi from Hibbing, MN to Mountain View. Plane tickets > would be a 'better idea'. At 30mpg and $3/gal, that's $230 each way > for gas alone. I don't want to discourage Jules from trying, but any plane trip out of MN is going to cost at least as much as driving (jet fuel prices are going through the roof). The trade-off is (if by plane) you get there faster or, (if by car) you get to see a lot of America. I wish the airline industry in the States would finally just collapse and then rebuild itself into something more viable. I'm trying to get a flight to Vienna and prices are all over the place...above $2,000! Ridiculous. I had an opportunity to get a flight for under $750 yesterday and got distratcted. When I came back to do it again today it's now under $800 but with a 14 hour stopover in Madrid. It would be fine if it was during the day but it would be at night, I'd have to get a hotel, the Euro kills the dollar (Hans, I am drinking heartily from the Euro mug), and I just don't have time (as much as I'd love to walk around Madrid for the 8 hours or so I would be afforded after sleep). Sorry for the rant. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Sep 7 12:25:09 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 13:25:09 -0400 Subject: OT: 6.8Ghz Quantum-Optical Notebook In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545D10@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545D10@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <431F2275.9010700@atarimuseum.com> Look closely at the Supposed System Properties Screen, just with the naked eye you can see someone photoshopped it. Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: >Don't know if this is a hoax, but they reportedly produced the 1st 6.8GHz >Quatum-Optical Notebook running Windows XP: > >http://atomchip.com/_wsn/page4.html > > >Ram > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/91 - Release Date: 9/6/2005 From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Sep 7 12:25:59 2005 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 13:25:59 EDT Subject: OT: 6.8Ghz Quantum-Optical Notebook Message-ID: <20a.8c8a88e.30507ca7@aol.com> >>In a message dated 9/7/2005 12:44:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>RMeenaks at OLF.COM writes: >>Don't know if this is a hoax, but they reportedly produced the 1st 6.8GHz >>Quatum-Optical Notebook running Windows XP: >>http://atomchip.com/_wsn/page4.html It's a bullshit hoax. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 12:38:28 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 13:38:28 -0400 Subject: OT: 6.8Ghz Quantum-Optical Notebook In-Reply-To: <431F2275.9010700@atarimuseum.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545D10@cpexchange.olf.com> <431F2275.9010700@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <431F2594.8030509@gmail.com> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Look closely at the Supposed System Properties Screen, just with the > naked eye you can see someone photoshopped it. That, and most of those technologies are years off and are going to be quite expensive when they do arrive. Peace... Sridhar From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 7 12:42:39 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 13:42:39 -0400 Subject: 64 pin SIMM (Mac IIFX) Specs? References: <200509061710.j86H7Cql057598@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <004101c5b3d3$9775d380$1b5d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Walther" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 2:20 PM Subject: Re: 64 pin SIMM (Mac IIFX) Specs? > > >YEs, that was the idea. It's no use if you want to link the data pins to > >a bidirectional bus. > > >I suspect the _real_ reason for it was that there was a spare pin on the > >package and it didn't ever make life more difficult to have separate DIN > >and DOUT pins (oyu could just strap them together externally if you > >wanted a bidirectional data pin). > > I'll be getting a IIfx on Thursday and I can confirm (I hope) that > the DIN and DOUT are common on the mother board at that time. Your > advice has given me hope that this is much more doable than I feared. > > If they're tied, then I should be able to build a 16MB SIMM using two > 16M X 4 chips. My concern was that the X4 chips do not have separate > DIN and DOUT and I wasn't certain if the IIfx actually needed the > separation. I think I have some 16M X 1 chips which would work in > either case, but my supply of 16M X 1 chips is much smaller. > > If the DIN and DOUT are common on the MB, and I use 16M X 4 chips, I > assume that I should either use the DIN pin or the DOUT pin on the > SIMM but not both? Using both could result in different length > datapaths which remerge, possibly causing interference from slightly > out of phase signals. The difference in length probably wouldn't > affect the timing much, but still... > > It would still be handy if someone has a mechanical drawing of the 64 > pin SIMMs. I can derive it from a physical example, but I'm less > likely to get the actual center measurement and tolerances correct > that way. Hmmm. I'll check around and see if any of the socket > manufacturers are still selling a 64 pin SIMM socket. If so, I > should be able to derive the SIMM dimensions from the socket > datasheet. > > Jeff Walther Are you planning on selling 16MB SIMMs or just making a few for personal satisfaction? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 7 12:37:39 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 18:37:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: 64 pin SIMM (Mac IIFX) Specs? In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Walther" at Sep 6, 5 01:20:02 pm Message-ID: > If the DIN and DOUT are common on the MB, and I use 16M X 4 chips, I > assume that I should either use the DIN pin or the DOUT pin on the > SIMM but not both? Using both could result in different length > datapaths which remerge, possibly causing interference from slightly > out of phase signals. The difference in length probably wouldn't > affect the timing much, but still... My guess is that if they are linked, they will be linked by short tracks near the SIMM sockets. And you'd be linking them with short tracks on the SIMM PCBs. Considering that a light-nanosecond (in free space) is about 1 foot, and that the velocity factor of a PCB is going to be around 0.6, I would guess about 8" of length difference would give 1ns of timing skew. I don't know how fast that amachine runs, but I would think you'd have to have a right stupid layout for using both pins to matter much. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 7 12:41:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 18:41:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: JF's calculations for PRIME numbers In-Reply-To: <20050906200733.3e7d5a82.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Sep 6, 5 08:07:33 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 05 Sep 2005 22:04:11 -0400 > "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > > > First of all, the reason is "FOR FUN", the most practical of all > > reasons. > > > > Of course! A prime number generator is always one of the first programs > I code up on a new machine. A 'benchmark' of sorts. I was told that one of the first programs that EDSAC ran printed out a table of integers and their squares. This did not impess other academics at Cambridge very much, because squaring was fairly easy to do on an analogue machine (so why bother with the more complicated digital ones?) The second prgoram printed out a list of prime numbers. Other people were impressed. Doing that was very difficult on an analogue computer, so here was something the digital machine could do that the analogue one couldn't. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 7 12:51:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 18:51:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050907123640.03a8d080@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Sep 7, 5 12:58:30 pm Message-ID: > >Do the developer and/or stripper usually turn out to be some commonly > >(cheaply) available chemical? I would prefer to avoid paying $6+ for a > >small bottle if I can avoid it. > > One kg of ammonium persulfate will make 4 liters of etchant, and it's > around $18 USD (not including shipping) - not sure if you'll be able to > find it much cheaper than that, but if you do, let everyone here know! ;-) > > The other chemical used is ferric chloride. The developer (as opposed to the etchant) is generally just a strong alkali. In the UK, sodium hydroxide solution is commonly used, it's sold (pure enough for PCB developing) for cleaning drains. It's a lot cheaper bought as drain cleaner than as PCB developer. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 13:32:53 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 14:32:53 -0400 Subject: OT: 6.8Ghz Quantum-Optical Notebook In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545D10@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545D10@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: On 9/7/05, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > Don't know if this is a hoax, but they reportedly produced the 1st 6.8GHz > Quatum-Optical Notebook running Windows XP: > > http://atomchip.com/_wsn/page4.html Hoax. Besides the obvious cut-n-paste square in the System Properties close-up, the BIOS chip in the "photo" of the "RAM compartment" says it's a "586 AMIBIOS" with a 1989 copyright date. The lidless photo of the "processor" looks to me like the guts of a CD-ROM laser. Buncha work do to all of that... some people have too much time on their hands, I guess. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 13:37:43 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 14:37:43 -0400 Subject: OT: 6.8Ghz Quantum-Optical Notebook In-Reply-To: References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545D10@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <431F3377.4010402@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Don't know if this is a hoax, but they reportedly produced the 1st 6.8GHz > > Quatum-Optical Notebook running Windows XP: > > > > http://atomchip.com/_wsn/page4.html > > > Hoax. > > Besides the obvious cut-n-paste square in the System Properties > close-up, the BIOS chip in the "photo" of the "RAM compartment" says > it's a "586 AMIBIOS" with a 1989 copyright date. The lidless photo > of the "processor" looks to me like the guts of a CD-ROM laser. > > Buncha work do to all of that... some people have too much time on > their hands, I guess. That aint time. Peace... Sridhar From kth at srv.net Wed Sep 7 13:46:45 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 12:46:45 -0600 Subject: WPS All in One files... In-Reply-To: <01ef01c5b33f$5b0dcdb0$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <01ef01c5b33f$5b0dcdb0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <431F3595.6050403@srv.net> a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: >Kevin Handy wrote: > > >>Word-11 was writted by DPD(?Data Processing Design?) >>to bring WPS-8 capabilities to the PDP-11. >>Originally written in basic, it was later partly recoded >>into something else that compiled into executable code (probably >>macro and basic+2) to speed it up. DEC later bought it and renamed it >>to DecWord, iirc. >> >> > >I used Word-11 (from the company MASS-11 I thought) back in 1985 or >so for some reports. This was under VAX/VMS. I suppose that, for its >time, it was not too bad. I was glad to upgrade to TeX though! > >I don't remember anything by the name of DECword, but there was >a DECwrite. DECwrite bore no resemblance to the Word-11 that I >knew. > >As for the original question, somewhere I have a set of >3.5" floppies that claim to implement WPS-PC (or some >not entirely dissimilar name). I can probably dig them >out at some stage if anyone cares enough about them >(and I can find them :-) and they are still readable :-( ). > > > I used to have a copy of that. It looked like Word-11 (and all associated other look-alikes) but had yet another file format. It would transfer files using the serial line, converting to/from its format. >>From what little I do recall about those floppies, it >looked like a DEC product. > >Antonio > > > If anyone is intrested, and has an 800bpi tape drive, I have the following tapes (and I'd like an image copy from them if possible suitable for simh) 1. WORD-11 Version 3.1 for RSTS Copyright 1977,78,79,80,81,82,83,84,85,86 by Data Processing Design, Inc. Licensed to: 11/70 #3DK67 Patch Level: 3 4217E 03/26/86 MM0 MT800 1/1 MT800 A9657A 0 2. AP-ZZCOA-08 WORD-11 FOR RSTS/E V2.9 LICENSED TO PATCH LEVEL ? 03/29/84 3. WORD-11 for RSTS/E Version 2.9 Copyright 1977,78,79,80,81,82 by Data Processing Design, Inc. Licensed to: # Patch Level: 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 1 Gen: 12/21/82 MM0 MT800 A2447A* 3. Unlabeled Data Processing Design, Inc tape (Glue came unstuck) Could be Word-11 or their backup program "SAVER" 4. BB-T387A-MC UDA DIAGS REV 6 1982 5. SAVER V2.8 FOR RSTS Licensed to: 11/34 #3100 Patch Level 9 3669E 07/23/86 MM0 MT800 1/1 MT800 B09014 6. AP-N963E-BC BSC+2 V2.4 RSTS/E 8MT9 1987 DIGITAL EQUIP. CORP. 080629 + Assorted RSTS/E V9 tapes in 800bpi Anyone willing to read these and create image files? It would allow showing what Word-11 was. From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 7 14:10:47 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 20:10:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Freeish Floppy drive Message-ID: <20050907191047.38499.qmail@web25003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Digital FR-PCP8E-AA external floppy for P7X notebook. Condition unknown, untested. Postage or collect from Midlands UK. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 7 14:21:09 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 20:21:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Freeiah Amiga games Message-ID: <20050907192109.48171.qmail@web25001.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Big box, 11" x 13" x 24", full of original boxed Amiga games. Worms, Lemmings, Adams Family and many more. Collect or postage from Midlands, UK. Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Sep 7 14:41:51 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 12:41:51 -0700 Subject: OT: 6.8Ghz Quantum-Optical Notebook References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545D10@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <431F427F.9C277DB4@msm.umr.edu> the photo of the chip is meaningless. it looks like a standard mobile package. The 6.8 ghz reading could be popped out by fairly simple overhaul of the dll that pops up the dialog. same for the 2tb hard drive capacity. Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > http://atomchip.com/_wsn/page4.html > > Hoax. > > Besides the obvious cut-n-paste square in the System Properties > close-up, the BIOS chip in the "photo" of the "RAM compartment" says > it's a "586 AMIBIOS" with a 1989 copyright date. The lidless photo > of the "processor" looks to me like the guts of a CD-ROM laser. > > Buncha work do to all of that... some people have too much time on > their hands, I guess. > > -ethan From marvin at rain.org Wed Sep 7 14:46:20 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 12:46:20 -0700 Subject: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? References: <200509071700.j87H04wj072640@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <431F438C.E21624B2@rain.org> > From: Jeff Walther > In fact, I have not been able to find precoated board (photoresist > coated) in the .050" thickness. So I will either need to use a > liquid photoresist or try a toner transfer system. Personally, I would avoid liquid photoresist and use dry film in its place. You could contact Fred at Far Circuits (http://www.farcircuits.net/) as he will supply boards precoated with dry film photoresist. URL for supplies is http://www.farcircuits.net/supplies.htm. According to the site, he will supply 0.047 material laminated with Dupont PM115 photo resist film. From sonnet at sols.ucl.ac.be Wed Sep 7 15:17:15 2005 From: sonnet at sols.ucl.ac.be (Philippe Sonnet) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:17:15 +0100 Subject: DEC Computer Lab References: <14452710.1125282980136.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <3.0.6.16.20050902165247.3bafb690@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <008901c5b3e9$298103c0$70276882@solssilex> Dear Joe, I posted two pictures of the cables on www.sonnet.be Philippe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 4:52 PM Subject: Re: DEC Computer Lab > Philippe, > > Can you post or E-mail a picture of what the cables and their connectors > look like? I know a surplus store that lots of patch cables and I may be > able to located some for the computer lab. The more detailed description > you can provide the more likely I'll be able to find some. > > joe > > At 04:15 PM 9/2/05 +0100, you wrote: >>Dear Ashley, >> >>Yes, I have them. See >>http://www.sonnet.be/dec/computerlab.htm >>I can photocopy them for you, if you want. >> >>Philippe >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Ashley Carder" >>To: >>Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 3:36 AM >>Subject: DEC Computer Lab >> >> >>> Does anyone have the manual or workbook for a DEC Computer Lab, which is >>> a >>> classroom logic trainer that was made by DEC back in the late 1960s? I >>> recently acquired two of these interesting little pieces of computing >>> history, along with the patch cords. I'd like to have the manual so I >>> can >>> learn more about it. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Ashley >>> >> >> > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 7 15:26:49 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 14:26:49 -0600 Subject: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 NOV 5-6 In-Reply-To: <200509071008.55283.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <431EF6CC.2050408@yahoo.co.uk> <200509071008.55283.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <431F4D09.4090401@jetnet.ab.ca> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Google says 2300mi from Hibbing, MN to Mountain View. Plane tickets > would be a 'better idea'. At 30mpg and $3/gal, that's $230 each way > for gas alone. But remember with a Road Trip you can shop for BIG IRON along the way. :) From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Sep 7 15:53:31 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 16:53:31 -0400 Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? Message-ID: <200509072053.j87KrVan010991@mwave.heeltoe.com> Does anyone have a datasheet for an 82S21? I checked all the obvious places but can't find one. 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM thanks! -brad From sonnet at sols.ucl.ac.be Wed Sep 7 17:01:27 2005 From: sonnet at sols.ucl.ac.be (Philippe Sonnet) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 00:01:27 +0200 Subject: DEC fast reader/puncher M705, 710, 715 card schematics Message-ID: <001901c5b3f7$b2c33a00$2401a8c0@solsevfit> Hi, Does anybody have the schematics for the pre-1971 versions of these : M715 C reader clock Flipchip card, M710 D punch control Flipchip card, M 705 D reader control Flipchip card ? While trying to connect my PDP-8/L to the PC04 fast reader/puncher, I realized that the schematics for the M705, M710 and M715 card posted by David Gesswein http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/queryb.pl?level=1m-series;id=689 did not correspond to the ones I have. These are late "F" versions (1971). These cards include several DEC9801 one-shot TTLs as well as 7475 TTLs. My cards are 1969 versions and have no 9801 nor 7475. My cards have been somewhat modified by the former owner of the PDP-8/L. I have to understand what he did in order to repair them (most cards have to be repaired because an overvoltage episode killed about one third of the TTLs in my PDP-8/L) ! Many thanks, Philippe . From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 7 16:27:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 22:27:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <200509072053.j87KrVan010991@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Sep 7, 5 04:53:31 pm Message-ID: > > > Does anyone have a datasheet for an 82S21? I checked all the obvious > places but can't find one. > > 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM The best I can find is a pinout, and the following description : Open Collector Outputs, 50ns access time, 130mA supply current. You already know it's 32*2 bits, TTL. Here's the pinout. I have no idea what some of the signals are for (does it, for example, have separate write-enable inputs for the 2 bits?), but it may be better than nothing. 1 : WE/ 2 : WS(0)/ 3 : DI(0) 4 : A(4) 5 : CE 6 : Strobe 7 : DO(0) 8 : Ground 9 : DO(1) 10 : A(3) 11 : A(2) 12 : A(1) 13 : A(0) 14 : DI(1) 15 : WS(1) 16 : Vcc The NatSemi DM86S21 might be an equivalent, I can find no cross-references to it in other memory databooks, though. -tony From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Sep 7 17:53:20 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 18:53:20 -0400 Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 07 Sep 2005 22:27:16 BST." Message-ID: <200509072253.j87MrKBb015916@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tony Duell wrote: > >Here's the pinout. I have no idea what some of the signals are for (does >it, for example, have separate write-enable inputs for the 2 bits?), but >it may be better than nothing. Thanks - I know the pinout. I think this ram would allow some sort of simultaneous read/write (not dual port, just overlapped) but I don't know how it works. >The NatSemi DM86S21 might be an equivalent, I can find no >cross-references to it in other memory databooks, though. Huh. I could not find anything on the 86S21, but I don't have national books. Anyone else? -brad From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Sep 7 17:59:30 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 17:59:30 -0500 Subject: MN Trip Was Re: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 NOV 5-6 References: Message-ID: <009f01c5b400$9cb31970$7e406b43@66067007> When I flew from MN to VCF it was only $234 round trip, you just have to book early with no refund. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 12:10 PM Subject: Re: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 NOV 5-6 > On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> On Wednesday 07 September 2005 09:18, Jules Richardson wrote: >> > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> > > \__/| * VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 * | >> > > >> > > | NOVEMBER 5-6, 2005 | >> > > | COMPUTER HISTORY MUSEUM | >> > > | MOUNTAIN VIEW, CALIFORNIA | >> > >> > Hmm, how far is California from deepest Minnesota? I'll still be in >> > the right country then at least ;-) Could well be road trip time... >> >> Google says 2300mi from Hibbing, MN to Mountain View. Plane tickets >> would be a 'better idea'. At 30mpg and $3/gal, that's $230 each way >> for gas alone. > > I don't want to discourage Jules from trying, but any plane trip out of > MN is going to cost at least as much as driving (jet fuel prices are going > through the roof). The trade-off is (if by plane) you get there faster > or, (if by car) you get to see a lot of America. > > I wish the airline industry in the States would finally just collapse and > then rebuild itself into something more viable. I'm trying to get a > flight to Vienna and prices are all over the place...above $2,000! > Ridiculous. I had an opportunity to get a flight for under $750 yesterday > and got distratcted. When I came back to do it again today it's now under > $800 but with a 14 hour stopover in Madrid. It would be fine if it was > during the day but it would be at night, I'd have to get a hotel, the Euro > kills the dollar (Hans, I am drinking heartily from the Euro mug), and I > just don't have time (as much as I'd love to walk around Madrid for the 8 > hours or so I would be afforded after sleep). > > Sorry for the rant. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 7 18:31:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Various Macs for Sale Message-ID: I have the following Macintosh computers for sale. These are mostly more recent models but there are some going back into the II series. All these systems are in anywere from good to poor condition, with the majority being in good condition. Most are complete, but I haven't looked inside, and I haven't powered up anything. Some are yellowed. Some are pristine. If you're interested in a particular model, ask and I can tell you the condition. In some cases there are multiple units of the same model, with the condition varying among them. Here's the deal: 1. $10 each plus shipping. 2. If you want me to inspect any system for any reason (other than reporting on general condition), add $10. 3. If you want me to test a system, add $25. "Testing" will consist of turning it on and seeing if it boots into an OS, or in the case of older systems with no internal hard drive, I'll turn it on and see if it goes "boop!" 4. Take the entire pallet (55 computers total) for $100 plus freight. The answer to all other questions follows this list of models available (number in parenthesis is quantity available): II Series IIci (2) IIsi IIvx (2) Quadra Series 610 (2) 605 (2) 650 (3) 950 Centris Series 610 (3) 650 (2) Performa Series 600 631CD (2) 636CD (2) 6115CD (3) 6116CD 6290CD 6370CD PowerMac Series 6100/66 (2) 6400/180 6500/250 7100/66 (3) 7100/66AV 7200/75 7500/100 (6) 8100/100 8500/120 (2) 9500/120 9500/132 (4) G3 (6) Misc Newer Technologies MAXpowr (240-266Mhz G3 Processor for NuBus) Newer Technologies Dt351c (2) The answers to all questions: 1. What ... ? I DON'T KNOW. Check http://www.lowendmac.com or justfuckinggoogleit.com. Feel free to cross-post this to the LEM Swap List. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Sep 7 19:04:18 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 17:04:18 -0700 Subject: SGI Hardware Developer Handbook, Release 2.0 available... Message-ID: <200509071704.19422.lbickley@bickleywest.com> For the second time in years, I've obtained a copy of the SGI Hardware Developers Handbook, Release 2.0 (05/97). This book covers all SGI products from the earliest Personal Iris through the Origin 2000/Onyx2. It details Chassis; Interfaces (serial, keyboard, mouse, parallel, disk drive, monitors, memory, graphics, video, audio, CPU, Bus, backplanes, network connectors, I/O Panel Plates, Drive Sleds); "hinv" output descriptions (complete); Software & Hardware tools, etc. This book was created for SGI hardware designers - but is a terrific source of information for all SGI buffs and collectors. The copy I picked up years ago is worn from a great deal of use!!! The copy I just obtained is brand new - with no markings or scratches other than one very minor nick on the bottom of the front cover. Before I put it on "ePay", I decided to offer it to this list first via the Vintage Computer Marketplace: http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/bid.cfm?ad=2009 I normally would not post my own auction item on this list - but this is one of those great finds that one seldom gets an opportunity to pick up... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dmabry at mich.com Wed Sep 7 19:05:56 2005 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 20:05:56 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: FS large lot of equipment] Message-ID: <431F8064.7010909@mich.com> Noticed this on a usenet group. Someone here might be interested. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: FS large lot of equipment Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 09:33:26 -0400 From: Markco Newsgroups: comp.sys.zenith Hi; I have a huge collection of vintage equipment I want to sell. There is a collection of several years here. Make a reasonable offer, you pick up. It is just too much for me to deal with any more and I want a serious vintage collector take it and use it.I cannot sell and ship selectively. And there is just WAY too much to ship anyway.I need to sell it as ONE lot. Here is a small sketch of what I have. Because of the range of stuff, I apologize ahead for cross posting. Commodore...(2) c64,(1) C64C (2)c128,(2) vic20,(3) plus 4, and (1)c16 computers. (4) 1541 and(2) 1571 disk drives, cables etc. 1 c2N Datasette, 2 commodore Monitors, one working one in need of repair. There are diskettes, miscellaneous manuals.A number of Texas instruments 994a units (both Beige and Silver and Black) and accessories, including THE expansion box.A lot of program cartridges,disks, a tape drve unit, etc. Also multiple Tandy 1000 type units,A Tandy 2000, A PC Junior and monitor and accessories, Multiple Apple 2e, 2e+ and a number of early Macs including 2gs. A couple of Apple 2c units and the matching monitors.A couple of Lazer 128s, A couple of early Atari and coleco game systems and cartridges. An Atari 520ST with monitor,A complete coleco Adam and some spare parts. 2 Kaypros, an Osborne 1, A number of Various Zenith products including a couple of Z100s, EZ PCs and early portables. A Panasonic Partner.There is also a Digital Rainbow 100. There are a bunch of early notebook machines here too from various manufacturers. Also a number of early desktop systems, IBM PC 5150s, IBM ATs, Various other Early IBM machines, Zeniths, Compaqs, some portables, and other numerous desktops with names such as Sanyo, Hundai, Wang, -- clear up through 286s 386s 486s and early pentiums and AMD products. Also totes full of cards, drives, cables, parts etc. There are not monitors for each individual system, but there is a at least one monitor that will work with each. Some of the 8 bits use a TV and there is a TV switch unit or two here also. Ive got a few printers, enough to match and couple with most systems. There is also a LOT of software,disks,books,manuals, etc.You'll need to bring cartons :-) So, in short a bunch of equipment from the early 80s up through. 8 bit and up. Fully 99% of the equipment is operational. All has been stored here, dry and protected,where I live. Everything is as is, please. MAKE ME AN OFFER. Please email so we can make arrangements. You pick up, and I won't take personal checks, please. I live in the central Vermont area. email at: onthfly1 at hotmail.com From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Sep 7 19:12:25 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 17:12:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac/Apples available in Rockville, MD. Cheap, going to the trash! Message-ID: <20050908001225.60881.qmail@web34106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> >From comp.sys.apple2 Washington Apple Pi (http://www.wap.org) in Rockville, MD is one of the oldest Apple user groups in the US and will be downsizing their storage area over the course of the next 10 days. That means we will have to either find new homes for dozens of macintosh and Apple computers, parts and accessories (printers, hard drives, etc.) or send them to the local recycling center. Please let me know if you would like additional information and I'll put you in touch with the people triaging the computer area. The stuff has to move and will be gone by September 15. Regards, - Mike __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Sep 7 19:57:35 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 19:57:35 -0500 Subject: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 NOV 5-6 In-Reply-To: References: <200509071008.55283.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050907195735.31a7a9b4.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 10:10:17 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > On Wednesday 07 September 2005 09:18, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > \__/| * VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 * | > > > > > > > > | NOVEMBER 5-6, 2005 | > > > > | COMPUTER HISTORY MUSEUM | > > > > | MOUNTAIN VIEW, CALIFORNIA | > > > > > > Hmm, how far is California from deepest Minnesota? I'll still be > > > in the right country then at least ;-) Could well be road trip > > > time... > > > > Google says 2300mi from Hibbing, MN to Mountain View. Plane tickets > > would be a 'better idea'. At 30mpg and $3/gal, that's $230 each way > > for gas alone. > > I don't want to discourage Jules from trying, but any plane trip out > of MN is going to cost at least as much as driving (jet fuel prices > are going through the roof). The trade-off is (if by plane) you get > there faster or, (if by car) you get to see a lot of America. > > I wish the airline industry in the States would finally just collapse > and then rebuild itself into something more viable. I'm trying to get > a flight to Vienna and prices are all over the place...above $2,000! > Ridiculous. I had an opportunity to get a flight for under $750 > yesterday and got distratcted. When I came back to do it again today > it's now under$800 but with a 14 hour stopover in Madrid. It would be > fine if it was during the day but it would be at night, I'd have to > get a hotel, the Euro kills the dollar (Hans, I am drinking heartily > from the Euro mug), and I just don't have time (as much as I'd love to > walk around Madrid for the 8 hours or so I would be afforded after > sleep). > Or you could take Amtrack across to Seattle (or hop a freight, although it's been years since I knew anybody who hopped a freight to Seattle. You probably still jump on at the rail yards in Fridley if that's your plan) and bus down from there. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Sep 7 19:59:11 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 19:59:11 -0500 Subject: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 NOV 5-6 In-Reply-To: <431F4D09.4090401@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <431EF6CC.2050408@yahoo.co.uk> <200509071008.55283.pat@computer-refuge.org> <431F4D09.4090401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050907195911.66455455.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 14:26:49 -0600 woodelf wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > Google says 2300mi from Hibbing, MN to Mountain View. Plane tickets > > > > would be a 'better idea'. At 30mpg and $3/gal, that's $230 each way > > > > for gas alone. > But remember with a Road Trip you can shop for BIG IRON along the way. > :) > > Not really at 30 mpg, unless you have places you can ship freight out of along the way when you find boatanchors you want. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Sep 7 21:08:24 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:08:24 -0500 Subject: Various Macs for Sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050907210824.5099b3c2.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I have the following Macintosh computers for sale. These are mostly > more recent models but there are some going back into the II series. > > All these systems are in anywere from good to poor condition, with the > majority being in good condition. Most are complete, but I haven't > looked inside, and I haven't powered up anything. Some are yellowed. > Some are pristine. If you're interested in a particular model, ask > and I can tell you the condition. In some cases there are multiple > units of the same model, with the condition varying among them. > > Here's the deal: > > 1. $10 each plus shipping. > 2. If you want me to inspect any system for any reason (other than > reporting on general condition), add $10. > 3. If you want me to test a system, add $25. "Testing" will consist > of turning it on and seeing if it boots into an OS, or in the case of > older systems with no internal hard drive, I'll turn it on and see if > it goes"boop!" > 4. Take the entire pallet (55 computers total) for $100 plus freight. > I'm slightly interested in all of them. Open everything. Plug everything in. Turn everything on. I'll let you know which ones I'm interested in at the 'surcharge' rate after your report. heh. (last time I bought a skid of Macs of that vintage at an auction, it was $1 and everybody looked at me funny for buying it. I didn't regret my purchase one iota, btw.) From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 7 21:37:44 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 22:37:44 -0400 Subject: Various Macs for Sale References: <20050907210824.5099b3c2.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00a001c5b41e$4b2ee430$1b5d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Stevens" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 10:08 PM Subject: Re: Various Macs for Sale > I'm slightly interested in all of them. > > Open everything. Plug everything in. Turn everything on. > > I'll let you know which ones I'm interested in at the 'surcharge' rate > after your report. heh. > > (last time I bought a skid of Macs of that vintage at an auction, it was > $1 and everybody looked at me funny for buying it. I didn't regret my > purchase one iota, btw.) Not much of a market for old Macs these days. A month or so ago I was looking for a Quadra 950 PS for my 2nd unit and a guy close to Cleveland said he has a parts 950 I could have if I drove up and got it (about an hour away). So I drove up there (grabbed the yellowing 950) and he started giving me other stuff like a brand new looking AWS 95 that was never used and included the full still sealed A/UX 3.x software set with manuals and it had the rare 5 drive tray inside also (all free). Same guy was selling an early PPC with monitor for $50 (no I didn't want it). I can see nobody wanting a skid of old Macs (most people just want a specific model), did you keep the machines or resell them individually on ebay? Still if you need a specific machine $10 plus shipping isn't that bad (even that is probably not worth Sellams time to box up). From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 7 21:35:59 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 20:35:59 -0600 Subject: Various Macs for Sale In-Reply-To: <00a001c5b41e$4b2ee430$1b5d1941@game> References: <20050907210824.5099b3c2.chenmel@earthlink.net> <00a001c5b41e$4b2ee430$1b5d1941@game> Message-ID: <431FA38F.6090607@jetnet.ab.ca> Teo Zenios wrote: > Still if you need a specific machine $10 plus shipping isn't that bad (even > that is probably not worth Sellams time to box up). The problem with $10 mac's is $0 software. With a old PC you could steal DOS and BASIC from good old Gates. :) They still may be usefull for parts like CRT's and 68000's for the really old mac's. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 7 21:58:24 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 19:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Various Macs for Sale In-Reply-To: <431FA38F.6090607@jetnet.ab.ca> from woodelf at "Sep 7, 5 08:35:59 pm" Message-ID: <200509080258.TAA08138@floodgap.com> > > Still if you need a specific machine $10 plus shipping isn't that bad (even > > that is probably not worth Sellams time to box up). > > The problem with $10 mac's is $0 software. With a old PC you could > steal DOS and BASIC from good old Gates. :) They still may be usefull > for parts like CRT's and 68000's for the really old mac's. Huh? Apple has lots of older System versions for download, and it's not that hard to find more recent versions of MacOS used. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- From a SeaWorld funeral: a mourning of the sage of aquariums. -- Andy Pafko From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Sep 7 22:19:55 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 22:19:55 -0500 Subject: Various Macs for Sale In-Reply-To: <00a001c5b41e$4b2ee430$1b5d1941@game> References: <20050907210824.5099b3c2.chenmel@earthlink.net> <00a001c5b41e$4b2ee430$1b5d1941@game> Message-ID: <20050907221955.672c91e5.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 22:37:44 -0400 "Teo Zenios" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Stevens" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 10:08 PM > Subject: Re: Various Macs for Sale > > > > I'm slightly interested in all of them. > > > > Open everything. Plug everything in. Turn everything on. > > > > I'll let you know which ones I'm interested in at the 'surcharge' > > rate after your report. heh. > > > > (last time I bought a skid of Macs of that vintage at an auction, it > > was$1 and everybody looked at me funny for buying it. I didn't > > regret my purchase one iota, btw.) > > Not much of a market for old Macs these days. A month or so ago I was > looking for a Quadra 950 PS for my 2nd unit and a guy close to > Cleveland said he has a parts 950 I could have if I drove up and got > it (about an hour away). So I drove up there (grabbed the yellowing > 950) and he started giving me other stuff like a brand new looking AWS > 95 that was never used and included the full still sealed A/UX 3.x > software set with manuals and it had the rare 5 drive tray inside also > (all free). Same guy was selling an early PPC with monitor for $50 (no > I didn't want it). > > I can see nobody wanting a skid of old Macs (most people just want a > specific model), did you keep the machines or resell them individually > on ebay? > A schoolteacher from up in northern Indiana scarfed up a bunch of the machines (the 6300s and 6500s) because he is deeply involved in a 'send a computer home' program for some educational project. He's a Mac lover and part of the 'plus' in sending home targeted Macintoshes is that the kids won't 'goof off' with Windows games on them, or so he said. I got a tidy little profit plus a school teacher got the hardware he needed for his personal 'mission.' At the auctions I go to, sadly, if it won't run a near-current version of Windoze nobody pays ANY attention to it. (or maybe that's good, from my point of view as a low budget hobbyist) What a COOL find, that AWS 95. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 7 22:19:22 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 23:19:22 -0400 Subject: Various Macs for Sale References: <20050907210824.5099b3c2.chenmel@earthlink.net> <00a001c5b41e$4b2ee430$1b5d1941@game> <431FA38F.6090607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00ad01c5b424$1bde4120$1b5d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "woodelf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 10:35 PM Subject: Re: Various Macs for Sale > Teo Zenios wrote: > > > > Still if you need a specific machine $10 plus shipping isn't that bad (even > > that is probably not worth Sellams time to box up). > > The problem with $10 mac's is $0 software. With a old PC you could > steal DOS and BASIC from good old Gates. :) They still may be usefull > for parts like CRT's and 68000's for the really old mac's. > > I have a basement full of 68K boxed mac software (most cheaply purchased if not free). In general it is easier to find boxed Mac software (atleast for me) then to find the same software for the PC. Do Mac people keep their older software while PC people tend to throw it out or something? Mac OS 7.01 and 7.5.x is available free from Apples website, I don't think any MS versions of DOS or Windows are available for free download (ofcourse they are available on the net for pirating). From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Sep 7 22:22:13 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 22:22:13 -0500 Subject: Various Macs for Sale In-Reply-To: <200509080258.TAA08138@floodgap.com> References: <431FA38F.6090607@jetnet.ab.ca> <200509080258.TAA08138@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20050907222213.12cbd1c9.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 19:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Still if you need a specific machine $10 plus shipping isn't that > > > bad (even that is probably not worth Sellams time to box up). > > > > The problem with $10 mac's is $0 software. With a old PC you could > > steal DOS and BASIC from good old Gates. :) They still may be > > usefull for parts like CRT's and 68000's for the really old mac's. > > Huh? Apple has lots of older System versions for download, and it's > not that hard to find more recent versions of MacOS used. > For various uses, MacOS 9 can be a really nice computing environment. I still consider my PowerBook 165c my favorite Macintosh, though. I even have a little SCSI ethernet pod that works with it. (a bunch of them, actually) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 22:35:01 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 22:35:01 -0500 Subject: Adaptec 1460C cable? Message-ID: Since I want to hook up to a 9-track tape drive, I would consider this request on-topic... I have this old Adaptec SlimSCSI 1460C PCMCIA card. I have no cable. I've seen two styles of card and cable - this one seems to be a tongue-and-groove, not single-row-of-pins. If I'm counting correctly, it looks like 26 pins (13 on each side of the plastic divider). Long ago, I found the other style of connector on a SCSI cable for $5 at Dayton. I'd be happy to find one of these for twice that. ;-) Anyone have a dead PCMCIA SCSI card, or a mystery SCSI cable in a bin that they've always wondered what it went to? Thanks, -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 7 22:34:24 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 20:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Various Macs for Sale In-Reply-To: <00a001c5b41e$4b2ee430$1b5d1941@game> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > Still if you need a specific machine $10 plus shipping isn't that bad (even > that is probably not worth Sellams time to box up). It's not, but in this case I'm interested in seeing them go to good homes if they can be of use to folks. Otherwise they are going to an uncertain fate. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 7 22:35:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 20:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Various Macs for Sale In-Reply-To: <431FA38F.6090607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, woodelf wrote: > The problem with $10 mac's is $0 software. With a old PC you could > steal DOS and BASIC from good old Gates. :) They still may be usefull > for parts like CRT's and 68000's for the really old mac's. Most of these (at least the ones with hard drives) probably have a full OS and apps already installed on them. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 7 22:43:00 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 23:43:00 -0400 Subject: Various Macs for Sale References: <431FA38F.6090607@jetnet.ab.ca> <200509080258.TAA08138@floodgap.com> <20050907222213.12cbd1c9.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00bc01c5b427$68d04110$1b5d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Stevens" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 11:22 PM Subject: Re: Various Macs for Sale > On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 19:58:24 -0700 (PDT) > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > For various uses, MacOS 9 can be a really nice computing environment. > > I still consider my PowerBook 165c my favorite Macintosh, though. I > even have a little SCSI ethernet pod that works with it. (a bunch of > them, actually) > I have a Powermac 8500 running OS 9.1. Upgrades includes a G3-400 1MB Cache, USB Card, ATA/66 Card with 2 x 10GB IDE drives and a 40X cdrom. In general its used for supporting my other Macs, some web use, and older PPC software I want to mess with. My favorite Macs would be a tossup between my IIfx, 840AV, and AWS95. Each is heavily expanded and has its good points. Maybe if I ever get my hands on the TokaMac drivers I am looking for the IIfx will be my favorite of the bunch. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 7 22:49:14 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 23:49:14 -0400 Subject: Various Macs for Sale References: Message-ID: <00cb01c5b428$47e1a970$1b5d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 11:34 PM Subject: Re: Various Macs for Sale > On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > Still if you need a specific machine $10 plus shipping isn't that bad (even > > that is probably not worth Sellams time to box up). > > It's not, but in this case I'm interested in seeing them go to good homes > if they can be of use to folks. Otherwise they are going to an uncertain > fate. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival Well if you do recycle them I hope you will remove any interesting Nubus cards (SCSI, Audio, Video capture, HighendVideo. DSP, etc). Was the 950 an editing machine or a RIP graphics station by chance? From wayne.smith at charter.net Thu Sep 8 00:13:51 2005 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 05:13:51 -0000 Subject: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 NOV 5-6 In-Reply-To: <200509080239.j882ctKp077778@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000001c256f6$f4847460$6501a8c0@Wayne> > Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 10:10:17 -0700 (PDT) > From: Vintage Computer Festival > Subject: Re: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 NOV 5-6 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > On Wednesday 07 September 2005 09:18, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > \__/| * VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 * | > > > > > > > > | NOVEMBER 5-6, 2005 | > > > > | COMPUTER HISTORY MUSEUM | > > > > | MOUNTAIN VIEW, CALIFORNIA | > > > > > > Hmm, how far is California from deepest Minnesota? I'll > still be in > > > the right country then at least ;-) Could well be road > trip time... > > > > Google says 2300mi from Hibbing, MN to Mountain View. > Plane tickets > > would be a 'better idea'. At 30mpg and $3/gal, that's $230 > each way > > for gas alone. > > I don't want to discourage Jules from trying, but any plane > trip out of MN is going to cost at least as much as driving > (jet fuel prices are going through the roof). The trade-off > is (if by plane) you get there faster or, (if by car) you get > to see a lot of America. > > I wish the airline industry in the States would finally just > collapse and then rebuild itself into something more viable. > I'm trying to get a flight to Vienna and prices are all over > the place...above $2,000! Ridiculous. I had an opportunity > to get a flight for under $750 yesterday and got distratcted. > When I came back to do it again today it's now under $800 > but with a 14 hour stopover in Madrid. It would be fine if > it was during the day but it would be at night, I'd have to > get a hotel, the Euro kills the dollar (Hans, I am drinking > heartily from the Euro mug), and I just don't have time (as > much as I'd love to walk around Madrid for the 8 hours or so > I would be afforded after sleep). > > Sorry for the rant. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival According to Expedia, Minneapolis to SF is $255 round trip (leaving on 11/4 returning on 11/6) and Minneapolis to SJ is $332. Second tier airlines (then again, these days what's the difference), but pretty cheap considering the payoff once you get to VCF. Of course you have to drive from Hibbing (childhood home of Bob [Zimmerman] Dylan, by the way) to the big city first, which is a bit of a trek, but there's always Camp Snoopy at Mall of America to even further justify the trip. From news at computercollector.com Thu Sep 8 00:23:39 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 01:23:39 -0400 Subject: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 NOV 5-6 In-Reply-To: <431EF6CC.2050408@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200509080533.j885XIZR077156@keith.ezwind.net> FYI, I've always had good rates by using Travelocity.com ... Also found that flying into San Francisco usually has more choices and is cheaper than flying into San Jose. Also, I'll be driving my rental car from VCF back to the SF airport at about 8:00 Monday morning, in case anyone wants to share a ride in exchange for some gas money. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 10:19 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 NOV 5-6 Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > \__/| * VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 * | > | | > | NOVEMBER 5-6, 2005 | > | COMPUTER HISTORY MUSEUM | > | MOUNTAIN VIEW, CALIFORNIA | Hmm, how far is California from deepest Minnesota? I'll still be in the right country then at least ;-) Could well be road trip time... From jim at jkearney.com Thu Sep 8 08:43:56 2005 From: jim at jkearney.com (Jim Kearney) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:43:56 -0400 Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? References: <200509072253.j87MrKBb015916@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <00d901c5b47b$5be860a0$0500a8c0@jkearney.com> The data sheet is in the 1976 Signetics Data Manual. I scanned the first page (the second is signal timing diagrams): http://www.jkearney.com/Misc/82s21-p1.pdf (255KB). Let me know if you want the second page. The book is hard-bound and I didn't have time to crop it, so it isn't a great scan, sorry. From bill at timeguy.com Thu Sep 8 08:48:42 2005 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 08:48:42 -0500 Subject: IBM 4247 Printer & Xerox 627 MemoryWriter Available In-Reply-To: <200509080239.j882ctKt077778@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509080239.j882ctKt077778@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050908134842.GD81645@outpost.timeguy.com> These are both available in Lincoln, Nebraska. The IBM is a wide-carriage dot-matrix printer. The Xerox is basically just a fancy typewriter, but it looks like there's a panel on the back where you might have been able to install a computer interface; not sure. Available for pickup, or shipping if you pay for packing and shipping. Let me know within the next couple of days, or they hit the recycle bin. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 8 08:50:42 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 14:50:42 +0100 Subject: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 NOV 5-6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <432041B2.6020901@yahoo.co.uk> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >>>Hmm, how far is California from deepest Minnesota? I'll still be in >>>the right country then at least ;-) Could well be road trip time... >> >>Google says 2300mi from Hibbing, MN to Mountain View. Plane tickets >>would be a 'better idea'. At 30mpg and $3/gal, that's $230 each way >>for gas alone. > > > I don't want to discourage Jules from trying, but any plane trip out of > MN is going to cost at least as much as driving (jet fuel prices are going > through the roof). The trade-off is (if by plane) you get there faster > or, (if by car) you get to see a lot of America. Hmm, I'd definitely prefer to drive I think - way more fun that way :) I could buy a car and then sell it again afterwards as that'll likely work out cheaper than renting (hmm, need to check on my insurance though - I know it covers me for any vehicle in the UK but not sure if that extends to overseas trips or not). I found a '66 Mustang the other day which I'm seriously tempted with... Only spanner in the works is that it's the girlfriend's birthday on the 6th and I don't think she's going to be too happy if I'm halfway across the country at the time! Sellam, any chance you can move the dates? ;) > I wish the airline industry in the States would finally just collapse and > then rebuild itself into something more viable. I'm trying to get a > flight to Vienna and prices are all over the place...above $2,000! It's a worldwide thing I think - or maybe just affecting flights to the US as well as from. The prices to MN from the UK were horrible too. cheers Jules From allain at panix.com Thu Sep 8 09:35:08 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 10:35:08 -0400 Subject: Various Macs for Sale References: <20050907210824.5099b3c2.chenmel@earthlink.net><00a001c5b41e$4b2ee430$1b5d1941@game><431FA38F.6090607@jetnet.ab.ca> <00ad01c5b424$1bde4120$1b5d1941@game> Message-ID: <008601c5b482$83b43260$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >> 8100/100 >> 8500/120 (2) >> 9500/120 > Mac OS 7.01 and 7.5.x is available free from Apples website, I recently acquited an 8500 with its neat video in/out jacks and all I have is the 7.5 CD. I think I need a special version of Mac Video SW to do captures anybody know where to look? BTW consider hitting this site with any excess PPC level machines. https://www.cristina.org/dsf/donate_mac_requirements.html?live=mac_require They will match you up with the needy. (all charitable BTW) What could be better for your old machines? John A. From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Thu Sep 8 10:20:05 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 08:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <00d901c5b47b$5be860a0$0500a8c0@jkearney.com> Message-ID: <20050908152006.47681.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> 1976 Signetics Data Manual (hardbound) - ahhh, if I could have only one data manual for working on 70's computers this would be it, a great resourse --- Jim Kearney wrote: > The data sheet is in the 1976 Signetics Data Manual. > I scanned the first > page (the second is signal timing diagrams): > http://www.jkearney.com/Misc/82s21-p1.pdf (255KB). > Let me know if you want > the second page. > > The book is hard-bound and I didn't have time to > crop it, so it isn't a > great scan, sorry. > > > > ______________________________________________________ Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 10:36:47 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 11:36:47 -0400 Subject: FA vax 780 & QBUS boards available with $ Message-ID: M7521 M7264 M8286 M8287 M8223 M8235 M8716 M8716 M8220B M8228 M8226 M8224 M7944 M8044 M8017 M7940 M7946 T1020 T2011 3 vaxbi ethernet cards with missing chips (probably missing 80186, and a big chip) sevaral ethernet adapters (DB15 to 8 pin socket) two long sets of ribbon cables with QBUS plugs on both ends (one is labeled 'maybe bad') condition unknown, all in anti static plastic bags contact me if interested $99.99+shipping from OHIO From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Sep 8 11:07:30 2005 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 11:07:30 -0500 Subject: leads for DEC logic lab Message-ID: <000001c5b48f$6a549be0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Here's a look at the leads for the logic lab: http://www.sideslip.net/dec_lab_leads/ They are basically mini-banana plugs. Note that they are stackable and have a "dec" logo molded on the side. Actual size of the plug is about 7/8" from top to tip; the plastic part is 1/2". If anyone has a spare manual, I'll trade a handful of leads for it! Otherwise, I'm in line with everyone else hoping for a good scan. Jack KC9HVE From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 11:16:54 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 12:16:54 -0400 Subject: leads for DEC logic lab In-Reply-To: <000001c5b48f$6a549be0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> References: <000001c5b48f$6a549be0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: On 9/8/05, Jack Rubin wrote: > Here's a look at the leads for the logic lab: > http://www.sideslip.net/dec_lab_leads/ I got an interesting ASCII view of what might be a graphic file (I saw the string 'Photoshop' in my browser). Perhaps you could rename the file to be a JPG? > If anyone has a spare manual, I'll trade a handful of leads for it! > Otherwise, I'm in line with everyone else hoping for a good scan. I've been following the discussion because I've wanted one of these since I saw the Teacher's Guide at age 13. What I'd love to see are some internal construction details of the Logic Lab. Can anyone snap a few shots? -ethan From news at computercollector.com Thu Sep 8 12:30:53 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 13:30:53 -0400 Subject: Vintage people: Google hires Vint Cerf Message-ID: <200509081739.j88HdrLa083536@keith.ezwind.net> http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,68808,00.html?tw=rss.TOP ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ Where did PDAs come from? http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 780 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 8 12:30:23 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 13:30:23 -0400 Subject: Various Macs for Sale References: <20050907210824.5099b3c2.chenmel@earthlink.net> <00a001c5b41e$4b2ee430$1b5d1941@game> <431FA38F.6090607@jetnet.ab.ca> <00ad01c5b424$1bde4120$1b5d1941@game> <008601c5b482$83b43260$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <006901c5b49b$076de3e0$1b5d1941@game> An 8500 requires OS 7.5.2 minimum and works best with 7.5.3 or newer. The machine originally shipped with an OEM Avid Videoshop CD for video capture and editing (I can send you a CD image of that if you like contact me directly). I believe there is a simple Apple QuickTime movie recorder program installed with OS 7.5.x that allows playback of movies and simple recording, look around in the OS folder for it (maybe under extras). ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 10:35 AM Subject: Re: Various Macs for Sale > >> 8100/100 > >> 8500/120 (2) > >> 9500/120 > > > Mac OS 7.01 and 7.5.x is available free from Apples website, > > I recently acquited an 8500 with its neat video in/out jacks and > all I have is the 7.5 CD. > I think I need a special version of Mac Video SW to do captures > anybody know where to look? > > BTW consider hitting this site with any excess PPC level machines. > https://www.cristina.org/dsf/donate_mac_requirements.html?live=mac_require > They will match you up with the needy. (all charitable BTW) > What could be better for your old machines? > > John A. From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Sep 8 12:59:49 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:59:49 +0200 Subject: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 NOV 5-6 In-Reply-To: References: <200509071008.55283.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <43209835.11247.68E8D01D@localhost> Am 7 Sep 2005 10:10 meinte Vintage Computer Festival: > On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > On Wednesday 07 September 2005 09:18, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > \__/| * VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 * | > > > Hmm, how far is California from deepest Minnesota? I'll still be in > > > the right country then at least ;-) Could well be road trip time... > > Google says 2300mi from Hibbing, MN to Mountain View. Plane tickets > > would be a 'better idea'. At 30mpg and $3/gal, that's $230 each way > > for gas alone. > I don't want to discourage Jules from trying, but any plane trip out of > MN is going to cost at least as much as driving (jet fuel prices are going > through the roof). The trade-off is (if by plane) you get there faster > or, (if by car) you get to see a lot of America. And you're not as much restricted in buying new old crap at the VCF as with a plane ... I mean, you always can fill up the car boot, the passenger seats (if theres a passanger buy him/her a one way ticket, still cheaper than over baggage charges), the roof, below your legs, anf on your lap. Man, belive me, a car can be pritty much filled up to max with old computers :)) > I wish the airline industry in the States would finally just collapse and > then rebuild itself into something more viable. Hey, all you need to do is to abolish the stupid law, that US airlines can only be owned by US citicens/companies. By now United is basicly owned by lufthansa, Northwest is, if I'm correct, KLM/Air France, and was it Delta where the Brits had their hands on? By abolishing that law, the airspace would be quite fast reordered. > I'm trying to get a flight to Vienna and prices are all over > the place...above $2,000! Ridiculous. I had an opportunity > to get a flight for under $750 yesterday and got distratcted. > When I came back to do it again today it's now under > $800 but with a 14 hour stopover in Madrid. It would be fine if it was > during the day but it would be at night, I'd have to get a hotel, Waitamoment, if you're booking a flight, and you'll have a mandatory stop over with a nights stay, the holtel room should be included. at least that was the law, last time I checked > the Euro kills the dollar (Hans, I am drinking heartily > from the Euro mug), Naa, Your government is on a suicidal amok run, and the Buck is just the third victim (after the truth and a whole lot of your people) > and I > just don't have time (as much as I'd love to walk around Madrid for the 8 > hours or so I would be afforded after sleep). > Sorry for the rant. :) contact me off list. Hans -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 8 13:14:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 8.0 NOV 5-6 In-Reply-To: <432041B2.6020901@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Sep 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > Only spanner in the works is that it's the girlfriend's birthday on the > 6th and I don't think she's going to be too happy if I'm halfway across > the country at the time! Sellam, any chance you can move the dates? ;) No, but if it'll help, we can do a nice little surprise announcement for her over the comm and maybe have a cake ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 8 12:47:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 18:47:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <200509072253.j87MrKBb015916@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Sep 7, 5 06:53:20 pm Message-ID: > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > >Here's the pinout. I have no idea what some of the signals are for (does > >it, for example, have separate write-enable inputs for the 2 bits?), but > >it may be better than nothing. > > Thanks - I know the pinout. I think this ram would allow some sort of > simultaneous read/write (not dual port, just overlapped) but I don't > know how it works. Quite likely, although the control signals look unconventional. I would guess you can apply a 5 bit address and read the contents of that location one the DO lines. You may have to pulse the strobe line, or something like that. Presumably you can also provide new data on the DI lines and write it into that location. What device uses this RAM, and what are the control pins conencted to? -tony From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 8 13:30:51 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 11:30:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage people: Google hires Vint Cerf In-Reply-To: <200509081739.j88HdrLa083536@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Sep 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,68808,00.html?tw=rss.TOP I heard a report on the news the other day that Google is buying up mass amounts of "dark fiber" in the US (and abroad?) It seems they have plans to build out their own network. Smart people! I'm definitely investing when they do their next stock offering. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Thu Sep 8 13:39:43 2005 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 20:39:43 +0200 Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? Message-ID: <002801c5b4a4$ae30d800$8101a8c0@dordt.nl> Hi Tony, I have the complete datasheet of this highspeed RAM. Still need it ? Henk IBM collector. http://home.hccnet.nl/h.j.stegeman From news at computercollector.com Thu Sep 8 13:55:19 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 14:55:19 -0400 Subject: Vintage people: Google hires Vint Cerf In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200509081905.j88J52gV084736@keith.ezwind.net> >>> I heard a report on the news the other day that Google is buying up mass amounts of "dark fiber" in the US (and abroad?) It seems they have plans to build out their own network. I've been hearing that for a while now. Maybe they plan to take on Skype directly. Imagine if every search result had an "I'm online / I'm away" button. That would be a whole new level of information searching. Oops, that goes way off-topic here. Someone come up with a vintage angle please! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 2:31 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Vintage people: Google hires Vint Cerf On Thu, 8 Sep 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,68808,00.html?tw=rss.TOP I heard a report on the news the other day that Google is buying up mass amounts of "dark fiber" in the US (and abroad?) It seems they have plans to build out their own network. Smart people! I'm definitely investing when they do their next stock offering. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From news at computercollector.com Thu Sep 8 14:02:43 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 15:02:43 -0400 Subject: DATE CHANGED!! / RE: VCF East 3.0 announcement In-Reply-To: <200507011957.j61Jvhdx024449@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200509081912.j88JCP3s084851@keith.ezwind.net> We changed our VCF East 3.0 plans from late-March to Saturday, May 13. Mark your calendars now!! The event will soon be listed on Sellam's vintage.org site, for people to start signing up for exhibits. The prices and the exact time aren't determined yet, but they'll be in line with the main VCF rates, and it'll basically be an all-day event. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 'Computer Collector Newsletter' Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 3:52 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: VCF East 3.0 announcement Given the comments below, now's a good a time to announce * tentative * plans for VCF East 3.0 next spring. As some cctalk'ers know, we've got a club here in the mid-Atlantic region called MARCH -- Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists. Yes, we know it's dorky name, but it's easy to speak and explain. We are temporarily based in a Yahoo group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ and we've got a real site under construction. Our club's first event was a kick-ass exhibit at the Trenton Computer Festival's 30th anniversary show in April. We emerged from TCF with enough confidence to ask Sellam for the right to host VCF East 3.0, and he consented. We're planning it as a one-day show sometime in March 2006. We haven't discussed an exact date, but I imagine we'll aim for the end of the month, to hopefully avoid snowfall. The venue will probably be the InfoAge Learning Center, located in Wall, N.J., by the shore. Wall is located about one hour east of Trenton, one hour north of Atlantic City, and 90 minutes south of Manhattan. By train, you can take the Amtrak from Trenton to AC, and then rent a car, or take NJ Transit from Manhattan directly to Wall. You can also fly into Newark or Philadelphia, or get a smaller plane to Trenton or AC. By car, Wall is right off of two majors highways (I-195 and the Garden State Parkway). It's the red star on the map at http://tinyurl.com/cj8kp Our club is currently forming a computer museum at InfoAge's facility. For details about InfoAge, which is extremely "under construction", see http://www.infoage.org -- we're inheriting their existing computer collection which even includes a small part of the ENIAC. Side events to our edition of VCF could include a tour of Camp Evans (the former Army radio research center which is where InfoAge is based) and a Nerd Trivia Contest. At http://www.visitmonmouth.com/tourism/attractions.asp you can find general tourist information about the region. Comments / suggestions are welcome. Better yet, if you live in the mid-Atlantic region, check out MARCH. - Evan K. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Chomko Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 11:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Washington Post article on Classic Computers Yeah, the article was great! It was well taken here. Someone who knows me asked about it. I was proud to mention that I sent it to the list, and knew a few folks mentioned. We had a nice walk down memory lane. When is VCF East coming to DC?!?! Eric Michael Nadeau wrote: >>Sweet plug!! :) >> >> >>>How much would his Apple sell for? He isn't sure. >>> >>>Ismail estimates no more than $300, if Ballos has all the original >>>materials; author Nadeau puts it at a more modest $200. > > > I haven't seen the article, but the interview made me nervous. I had > to keep correcting him, and he was obviously angling for me to give > him high prices. > I'm glad the article seems to have turned out OK. > > >>Oh well, I still have to learn that the caveats never get through the >>noise when you're talking to a reporter. I told him $300 if it's >>brand new, in the box, all the manuals, original system disks etc. >> >> >>>For now, it seems, the Apple IIc that Ballos got for Christmas in >>>1986 is still a tad too young to be worth real money. >> >>Yeah, keep waiting. >> >>Anyway, one of the better articles on the subject I've read. Not too >>many errors and they were very minor at that. >> >>-- >> >>Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > > Festival > >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>---- > > ---- > >>International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > http://www.vintage.org > >>[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > > mputers ] > >>[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > >> > > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 8 14:17:43 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 14:17:43 -0500 Subject: Vintage people: Google hires Vint Cerf In-Reply-To: <200509081905.j88J52gV084736@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200509081905.j88J52gV084736@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050908141652.04e36320@mail> At 01:55 PM 9/8/2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >Imagine if every search result had an "I'm online / I'm away" button. That >would be a whole new level of information searching. Imagine how crazy I'd be if I actually participated in such a scheme to tell people when I'm here and when I'm away! - John From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Sep 8 14:22:54 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:22:54 -0400 Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 08 Sep 2005 18:47:26 BST." Message-ID: <200509081922.j88JMsN2018967@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tony Duell wrote: > >Quite likely, although the control signals look unconventional. I would It turns out it's write-while-read ram (no doubt you've caught up on your email by now and read the pdf which was posted). The strobe signal clocks the ram data into a latch. This is available for some time, even if you do a write. >What device uses this RAM, and what are the control pins conencted to? It's used in the MIT CADR lisp machine, for the m-memory, which is a high speed scratch pad used by the microcode. I wrote some programs to convert the original CAD files (in SUDS) into verilog and I've been (slowly) working on getting them to simulate. I want to boot one under simulation and eventually put one in a simple fpga (hah, by the time I'm 75 at this rate). I figure they'll make nice christmas gifts :-) I've got it fetching microcode from the prom. Most of the problems have been with 74 style 'parts' I have made - in some cases I had to guess because I have no data sheet but I'm slowly fixing that. Also iverilog and cver both seem to have some small issues but mostly work. I've used modelsim too but I perfer to run on linux. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Sep 8 14:23:44 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:23:44 -0400 Subject: Vintage people: Google hires Vint Cerf In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 08 Sep 2005 13:30:53 EDT." <200509081739.j88HdrLa083536@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200509081923.j88JNiKo019219@mwave.heeltoe.com> "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" wrote: >http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,68808,00.html?tw=rss.TOP he always get the best toys :-) -brad From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 8 13:54:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 19:54:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <002801c5b4a4$ae30d800$8101a8c0@dordt.nl> from "Henk Stegeman" at Sep 8, 5 08:39:43 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Tony, > > I have the complete datasheet of this highspeed RAM. > Still need it ? _I_ don't need it at the momnet, maybe the original questioner does, though. -tony From wacarder at earthlink.net Thu Sep 8 15:27:15 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:27:15 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: leads for DEC logic lab Message-ID: <11011262.1126211236203.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > Here's a look at the leads for the logic lab: > http://www.sideslip.net/dec_lab_leads/ > > They are basically mini-banana plugs. Note that they are stackable and have > a "dec" logo molded on the side. Actual size of the plug is about 7/8" from > top to tip; the plastic part is 1/2". > > If anyone has a spare manual, I'll trade a handful of leads for it! > Otherwise, I'm in line with everyone else hoping for a good scan. > > Jack > KC9HVE Jack, The patch cables that came with my two DEC Computer Labs are not like yours. They are like Phillippe's and are not stackable. Maybe yours are a later version(?). Ashley From wacarder at earthlink.net Thu Sep 8 15:29:55 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:29:55 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: leads for DEC logic lab Message-ID: <9445034.1126211395982.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > On 9/8/05, Jack Rubin wrote: >> Here's a look at the leads for the logic lab: >> http://www.sideslip.net/dec_lab_leads/ > >> If anyone has a spare manual, I'll trade a handful of leads for it! >> Otherwise, I'm in line with everyone else hoping for a good scan. > > I've been following the discussion because I've wanted one of these > since I saw the Teacher's Guide at age 13. What I'd love to see are > some internal construction details of the Logic Lab. Can anyone snap > a few shots? > > -ethan I'll take the back off one of mine some time and take some detailed pictures of the insides of the thing. Question: Is the Logic Lab the same thing as the Computer Lab? Mine are Computer Labs. Ashley From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Sep 8 16:40:19 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 16:40:19 Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <20050908152006.47681.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> References: <00d901c5b47b$5be860a0$0500a8c0@jkearney.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050908164019.0f674d24@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:20 AM 9/8/05 -0700, Jim wrote: >1976 Signetics Data Manual (hardbound) - ahhh, if I >could have only one data manual for working on 70's >computers this would be it, a great resourse I have a PB copy of about that vintage if someone wants to scan it. It's at the warehouse so I don't have it in front of me but it has all of those old PROMs in it. I also have a PB copy of the 1971 Signetics "Digital 8000 Series TTL/MSI" databook and 1972 Signetics MOS Silicon Gate 2500 Series / Metal Gate 2000/2400 Series Data Book and 1978 Harris Bipolar CMOS Memory Databook. I have more old memory data books but they're not here at the moment. Joe > >--- Jim Kearney wrote: > >> The data sheet is in the 1976 Signetics Data Manual. >> I scanned the first >> page (the second is signal timing diagrams): >> http://www.jkearney.com/Misc/82s21-p1.pdf (255KB). >> Let me know if you want >> the second page. >> >> The book is hard-bound and I didn't have time to >> crop it, so it isn't a >> great scan, sorry. >> >> >> >> > > > > > >______________________________________________________ >Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. >http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 8 15:57:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 21:57:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <200509081922.j88JMsN2018967@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Sep 8, 5 03:22:54 pm Message-ID: > >What device uses this RAM, and what are the control pins conencted to? > > It's used in the MIT CADR lisp machine, for the m-memory, which is a > high speed scratch pad used by the microcode. Oooh... very nice... > > I wrote some programs to convert the original CAD files (in SUDS) into > verilog and I've been (slowly) working on getting them to simulate. I > want to boot one under simulation and eventually put one in a simple > fpga (hah, by the time I'm 75 at this rate). I figure they'll make nice My experience with simulators suggests that's a massive _underestimate_ of the time it would take. > christmas gifts :-) > > I've got it fetching microcode from the prom. Most of the problems have > been with 74 style 'parts' I have made - in some cases I had to guess > because I have no data sheet but I'm slowly fixing that. FWIW< I have a reasonably complete set of TTL databooks from several manufactueres. Let me know if there's any 74-series part you want me to look up. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Sep 8 17:03:53 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 23:03:53 +0100 Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001f01c5b4c1$34d96f40$5b01a8c0@pc1> Tony Duell wrote: > FWIW< I have a reasonably complete set of TTL databooks from several > manufactueres. Let me know if there's any 74-series part you want me > to look up. I have a brace of CDROMs from TI on the shelf which have datasheets for many (possibly all) of their TTL parts (and a bunch of their analog stuff too). I expect that, unless you want some really obscure stuff, it's all on there and, I would expect, on their website too. Right now, the two CDROMs are easier for me to reach than the half-dozen or so TI databooks too :-) Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Sep 8 17:34:41 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 18:34:41 -0400 Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:57:29 BST." Message-ID: <200509082234.j88MYfS5007217@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tony Duell wrote: > >My experience with simulators suggests that's a massive _underestimate_ >of the time it would take. Well, I did manage to make a microcode simulator and it boots the lisp machine. I think there are a few very subtle bugs in the pipe, however, and I think the only way I'll find them is to watch the real hardware work. I think the timing on this machine, and the 74S/74LS parts it uses are slow enough that verilog will do fine. In reality what I am saying is not about verilog, but the accuracy of the models I have created. So, restated, I think I can make models which are accurate enough for this type of design. heh. we'll see. -brad From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 8 17:30:46 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 16:30:46 -0600 Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <001f01c5b4c1$34d96f40$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <001f01c5b4c1$34d96f40$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <4320BB96.6090809@jetnet.ab.ca> a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > I have a brace of CDROMs from TI on the shelf which > have datasheets for many (possibly all) of their TTL > parts (and a bunch of their analog stuff too). I > expect that, unless you want some really obscure > stuff, it's all on there and, I would expect, on > their website too. Ummm what about a 7480 :) > Right now, the two CDROMs are easier for me to reach > than the half-dozen or so TI databooks too :-) I find most of the time I need a data sheet I have to surf the web. > Antonio Too bad I find out about all the neat parts that are going bye-bye. Now is the last chance to get any of the old TTL before they go *POOF*! From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Sep 8 17:49:04 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:49:04 -0500 Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <4320BB96.6090809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <001f01c5b4c1$34d96f40$5b01a8c0@pc1> <4320BB96.6090809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050908174904.544716e7.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 16:30:46 -0600 woodelf wrote: > a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > > > I have a brace of CDROMs from TI on the shelf which > > have datasheets for many (possibly all) of their TTL > > parts (and a bunch of their analog stuff too). I > > expect that, unless you want some really obscure > > stuff, it's all on there and, I would expect, on > > their website too. > > Ummm what about a 7480 :) > > > Right now, the two CDROMs are easier for me to reach > > than the half-dozen or so TI databooks too :-) > > I find most of the time I need a data sheet I have to > surf the web. > > > Antonio > Too bad I find out about all the neat parts that > are going bye-bye. Now is the last chance to get > any of the old TTL before they go *POOF*! > > That's true, but there are decades worth of NOS TTL chips on eBay. I've gotten a bunch of them recently of the types I think I'll ever use. And really cheap at that. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Sep 8 17:55:57 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:55:57 -0500 Subject: Vintage people: Google hires Vint Cerf In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050908141652.04e36320@mail> References: <200509081905.j88J52gV084736@keith.ezwind.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050908141652.04e36320@mail> Message-ID: <20050908175557.3683066b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 14:17:43 -0500 John Foust wrote: > At 01:55 PM 9/8/2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > >Imagine if every search result had an "I'm online / I'm away" button. > > That > >would be a whole new level of information searching. > > Imagine how crazy I'd be if I actually participated in such > a scheme to tell people when I'm here and when I'm away! > *topic drift warning* It's my understanding that the Iroquoi (sp) Indians of the Eastern United states had a 'social code' by which if you were away from your home, you were supposed to put up a big prominent banner marker, so that other people would know to steer away and not go near your house. I think it's codified in the Iroquoi Constitution. They apparently had a very different attitude about respect for other people's property that we do today. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 8 17:59:45 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 17:59:45 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Information about CD-ROM in the library of Computer Museum Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050908175849.04efdfa8@mail> I gave them access to my ftp archive, and directed them to this list and to Bitsavers, too. - John >Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 20:31:40 +0000 >From: asbesto >To: jfoust at threedee.com >Subject: Information about CD-ROM in the library of Computer Museum > > >Hi, > >i'm Gabriele Zaverio, president of FreakNet MediaLab, an italian >association dedicated to preserve computing history and working >to create a Museum of Working Machines :) > >we're actually working on a Data General Eclipse MV/7800XP >running AOS/VS, a very particular Operating System. > >Our problem is the total lack of any manual. So, searching >the net, i caught this page: > >http://www.threedee.com/jcm/library/ > >in which i read: > >"Two CDs of 20,046 pages > I've made contact with a guy who's scanned 20,046 pages of the > docs listed below, at 300 to 400 DPI. I keep these on CD-R." > >well, i'm really interested in those CD! :) > >i think we can made a sort of exchange - here we have many kind >of manuals, from Honeywell DPS-4 and DPS-6, to PDP-11/34 >internal schematics (including GAMMA-11 TAC Camera), and >other manuals like DG/UX for Data General Eclipse... > >as our goal, we want to put online every kind of documentation >we have, and we started scanning something. > >About our Eclipse, we have some stuff here: > >http://zaverio.net/eclipse/stuff > >as documentation, howto's and tape images and backups of >some part of AOS/VS, including help files and man pages. :) > >can you help ? i see you CD-ROM contains very interesting >manuals that can help us running this machine (our goal >is to make it available for users for experimenting it :) > >please help us, and tnx in advance > >Gabriele "asbesto" Zaverio >FreakNet MediaLab / Poetry > >p.s. we're from Palazzolo Acreide, a little town in >Sicilia, Italy! :) > >-- >[ asbesto : IW9HGS : freaknet medialab : radiocybernet : poetry ] >[ http://freaknet.org/asbesto http://papuasia.org/radiocybernet ] >[ http://www.emergelab.org :: NON SCRIVERMI USANDO LE ACCENTATE ] >[ *I DELETE* EMAIL > 100K, ATTACHMENTS, HTML, M$-WORD DOC, SPAM ] > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 8 17:29:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 23:29:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <4320BB96.6090809@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Sep 8, 5 04:30:46 pm Message-ID: > Ummm what about a 7480 :) A gated full adder? (I had to look it up...). I have a data sheet which even includes a transistor-level schematic. > > > Right now, the two CDROMs are easier for me to reach > > than the half-dozen or so TI databooks too :-) > > I find most of the time I need a data sheet I have to > surf the web. Prolbems are that I can't access the web or read CD-ROMs at my workbench where I do most of my designing (I prefer to design with real components and a soldering iron), and anyway, it's a lot easier to flip through a databook looking for interesting chips than to display a pdf (every machine I've ever used, including fast PCs owned by friends of mine, take a noticeable time to display a page from a pdf file. A lot longer than it takes me to glance at a page and see if it could possibly include the information I am looking for). -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Sep 8 18:02:37 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 00:02:37 +0100 Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <4320BB96.6090809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002401c5b4c9$696db1f0$5b01a8c0@pc1> woodelf wrote: > Ummm what about a 7480 :) Nope, although I did have fun trying to get the app to run :-) The directory with the datasheets has hundreds of sheets but there seems to be no obvious way of relating a filename to a device type :-( I found the SN7485 and SN7486 but no SN7480 (or at least no datasheet). Is it used in anything I'm likely to care about? Is there a datasheet for it on the web? Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 8 18:05:47 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? Message-ID: <200509082305.QAA05320@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Brad Parker" > > >Tony Duell wrote: >> >>My experience with simulators suggests that's a massive _underestimate_ >>of the time it would take. > >Well, I did manage to make a microcode simulator and it boots the lisp >machine. > >I think there are a few very subtle bugs in the pipe, however, and I >think the only way I'll find them is to watch the real hardware work. > >I think the timing on this machine, and the 74S/74LS parts it uses are >slow enough that verilog will do fine. In reality what I am saying is >not about verilog, but the accuracy of the models I have created. So, >restated, I think I can make models which are accurate enough for this >type of design. Hi Make the design race free. I'm not sure if I understand you statement about accurate. A NAND gate is a NAND function. Anything else is incorrect. I hope you are not trying to do timing verification with verilog modeling? Dwight > >heh. we'll see. > >-brad > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 8 17:43:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 23:43:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Debugging the HP37201 HPIB Extender Message-ID: I think this is on-topic here, it is well over 10 years old, it contains a classic-type microprocesosr, and I suppose it could be classed as a peripheral for a computer system (it's more commonly used to do remote-control of test equipment, but...) Note that I have a circuit diagram for this unit, but no service manual, so I couldn't interpret the self-test LED patterns. But I sorted it out by thinking about what had to be going on... To cut to the end, would you believe _another_ dead 2114 RAM chip.... -tony > The HP37201 is a unit that allows an HPIB (GPIB, IEEE-488) bus to be sent > over a serial connection. It supports various forms of the latter, > including asynchronous and synchronous modems and twisted-pair cable. > > Physically, it's a 2U rackmount unit. To get inside, remove the top and > bottom panels with the captive screws at the back. The right side panel > can then be removed in much the same way. To get the left side panel off, > remove the 2 screws at the ends of the handle, the plastic covers under > them, and the handle itself. The panel then slides off towards the back > of the instrument. > > Inside there is one large PCB filling most of the case. It contains a > 6800 processor, 8K of frimware EPROMs (either 8 off 2708, 4 off 2716 or 2 > off 2732, sleected by soldered links on the board, mine has the middle > configuration), 1K of RAM in 2 off 2114, a 6850 async serial chip, a 6852 > sync serial chip 5 off 6821 PIAs (1 for the diagnostic connector and > front panel LEDs, one for the GPIB data lines, one for the GPIB > handshake/control lines, one for the internal configuration switches and > GPIB control, and one for serial control and handshake lines), GPIB > buffers, RS232 buffers, and a bit of TTL. The latter is mostly for the > encoder/decoder for the twisted pair connector, but of course there's a > little for the GPIB port, system address decoders, microprocessor address > buffers, etc. > > The PSU is on the same board, but HP have been kind to people like me who > like to test it on dummy (or no) load first. There is a 12 pin (6 pin > double-sided) edge connector on the PCB. Some of the pins go to the PSU > outputs, others carry the power lines to the rest of the machine. In > normal operation, a little jumper PCB (no components, or even soldered > connections) is plugged in there. It can be removed to test the PSU > without the rest of the machine conencted. Incidentally, the marked PSU > testpoints are on the PSU side of this connector, and are thus useful > when the jumper is removed. > > The only other things in the case are the mains transfomer and associated > input connector and power switch, and a 'DTR OFF' changeover switch that > connects the DTR pin on the RS232 connector either to the DTR buffer > output or to another buffer output that is permanently at -12V. > > There are 2 DIP switches and a rotary switch on the PCB. The latter > selects the transmission mode/baud rate and self-tests. > > OK, so what did mine do. Well, in the process of fully dismantling and > reassembling it (not to be recomended if you don't like fiddling tiny > nuts into even smaller spaces -- the connectors are all soldered to the > mainboard and have to be unbolted from the back panel to get the board > out), I'd removed the 3 fuses from the PSU section of the PCB. There's a > 3A fusr for the +5V line, a 0.5A fuse for the +12V line, and another 0.5A > fuse for both the -12V and -5V lines. I put them back in suitable places > and powered up with the jumper pulled. > > The +5V and -ve lines were fine, the +12V line was missing. I quickly > traced this to a blown fuse. Since I'd not seen it blow when I flipped > the power switch, I replaced it, the +12V line now came up correctly. > > I fitted the jumper and powered up again. The -ve supply fuse flashed and > failed. I suspect.actually, the fuse I had put in the +12V holder had > originally come from the -ve one, it had failed long before I started > fiddling with things. A bit of checking showed that there was a short > from the -5V line to ground, and that a 75110 buffer (line driver for the > twisted pair cable) was getting rather hot. I desoldered it, replaced the > fuse, and tried again. This time the fuse held, and the instrument should > work for other-than-TP links without this buffer. > > Alas it didn't seem to be working. None of the LEDs came on other than > the power light (which simply runs from the 5V line). Fiddling with the > CTS and DSR lines had no effect on the associated LEDs (note : The 'link' > is in software, the RS232 lines are read via pins on one PIA, the LEds > are driven by another). More worrying still, at least one of the PIAs was > not being initialised, a pin that drives a select input on a mux to set > the async baud rate [1] was left configued as an input. > > [1] The async baud rates are quite clever. The unit can officially do > 150, 300, 600, 1200 baud. The 6850 can do either /16 or /64 between the > clock input and the internal bit clock, so one clock input frequency will > do for 300 and 1200, half of it would do for 150 and 600. There's a mux > that selects the appropriate output of a counter depending on the state > of a PIA pin. There's also a soldered link that would appear to double > all the baud rates, I've not tried it yet. > > I twiddled the rotary switch and powered up again. Now the first > interesting thing was that in 2 of the self-test positions I did get some > front panel LEDs on. So the CPU was clearly running. It could do enough > to intialise the PIAs, read the configuration switches, and drive the > LEDs. I'd already pulled the socketed EPROMs and dumped their contents. I > couldn't be sure it was correct, obviously, but they looked sane. > > One of the test positions was clearly a memory test (I forget the > labelling). Now, for very good reasons, namely that they were 2114s, I > suspected the RAMs. Getting to them is not easy, they're at the very > front of the board, partly hidden by the front casting. So I had to get > that out of the way first. > > Disconnect the DTR OFF wires at the back of the PCB (note the order, they > are not marked on the PCB). Pull the cable through the grommet, undo the > 2 screws and nyloc nuts holding the cable clips to the right side > casting. Prise off the trim strip at the top of the front casting, remove > the 6 screws holding the front panel. Pull that forwards, remove the 2 > screws holding the mains swtich to the back of it, then remove the front > panel. Don't worry about the lack of the DTR OFF switch, you don't need > the DTR pin to sort out the memory. > > With the front panel out of the way, the front casting comes off with the > 4 corner screws.. > > OK, I desoldered the RAM, and fitted 18 pin DIL sockets. With no RAM > chips at all, I got a different set of LEDs on the memory test > (interesting, at least it was doing somethign with the RAM). Putting the > RAMs back gave the old pattern, putting them back the other way round > (swapping which chip stored each nybble) gave a different pattern. > > Had the RAM been working correctly, swapping them would have made no > difference of course. So it was likely I had a RAM fault. > > I found an old Apple 80 column card with some socketed 2114's on it. > Pulled a couple and put them into the 37201. Powered up. Got yet another > patten from the memory trst. The self-test now gave a patten of flashing > LEDs (test-complete alternating with all the others). The 'operating' > modes now gave a single LED on, which indicated 'remote signal lost' -- > not suprising as I had nothing connected to it. More usefully, the RS232 > handshake pins now did affect the frontpanel LEDs, the baud-select pin > from the PIA was now driven correctly. > > Trying the origianl RAMs back one at a time proved that only one was > dead. > > Still to do : Get a new 75110 driver chip for the TP interface. And > investigate the lowest hardware test, which doesn't even use the firmware > ROMs, with a logic analyser From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 8 17:46:40 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 23:46:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <002401c5b4c9$696db1f0$5b01a8c0@pc1> from "a.carlini@ntlworld.com" at Sep 9, 5 00:02:37 am Message-ID: > > woodelf wrote: > > > Ummm what about a 7480 :) [...] > I found the SN7485 and SN7486 but no SN7480 (or > at least no datasheet). > > Is it used in anything I'm likely to care about? Well, it's obscrue enough that I had to look it up, and I've worked on many TTL-based devices. I don't think I've ever seen one. > > Is there a datasheet for it on the web? Dunno. If anyone needs it, I do have the datasheet, and would find some way to get the information to you if you were trying to repair a classic computer or something like that. -tony From vrs at msn.com Thu Sep 8 18:23:57 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:23:57 -0700 Subject: leads for DEC logic lab References: <000001c5b48f$6a549be0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: From: "Jack Rubin" > Here's a look at the leads for the logic lab: > http://www.sideslip.net/dec_lab_leads/ > > They are basically mini-banana plugs. Note that they are stackable and have > a "dec" logo molded on the side. Actual size of the plug is about 7/8" from > top to tip; the plastic part is 1/2". Those will work, but I think those are the leads for an H901 based Logic Lab, as opposed to the (non-stackable) leads for an H500 Computer Lab. (The patch-cords you have pictured look like H911 patchcords.) The brass rivets/grommets/jacks are the same size, so either type of lead will work fine in either lab. Stackable mini-banana plug patch-cords are still made, and work OK in either. What I did was buy a set of mini-banana to regular-banana adaptors, which I got a good deal on, and a bunch of stackable regular-banana patch-cords, which were also inexpensive. I'd love to have something closer to the original patch-cords, though :-). > If anyone has a spare manual, I'll trade a handful of leads for it! > Otherwise, I'm in line with everyone else hoping for a good scan. I'd also love to get a copy of the "Digital Logic Laboratory Workbook", (for the H901 based lab) :-). I have an order form for it, but I don't think it would work if I sent it in. Even if I checked "Please have a salesman call." Vince From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 8 18:23:54 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 17:23:54 -0600 Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? : pdp2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4320C80A.2050201@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >>Ummm what about a 7480 :) > > > A gated full adder? (I had to look it up...). I have a data sheet which > even includes a transistor-level schematic. > Hmm that is not web ... drat . I am guessing that is about 15 ns delay. I am using CPLD's rather than TTL since I don't have get BIG PCB's made up, as well as the CPLD language is simple logic equations rather than * Your Favorite big $$$ hardware design language * as with FPGA's, but it nice to compare what real TTL speeds are. > > Prolbems are that I can't access the web or read CD-ROMs at my workbench > where I do most of my designing (I prefer to design with real components > and a soldering iron), and anyway, it's a lot easier to flip through a > databook looking for interesting chips than to display a pdf (every > machine I've ever used, including fast PCs owned by friends of mine, take > a noticeable time to display a page from a pdf file. A lot longer than it > takes me to glance at a page and see if it could possibly include the > information I am looking for). While surfing the web for a better way to do a ALU I found a hardware design for a Pdp 2. http://www.locl.net/homes/pdp2/ While I think using 74XX's is better for vintage hardware so you have more a idea of realistic timing I wish him good luck. > -tony From vrs at msn.com Thu Sep 8 18:41:54 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:41:54 -0700 Subject: DEC fast reader/puncher M705, 710, 715 card schematics References: <001901c5b3f7$b2c33a00$2401a8c0@solsevfit> Message-ID: From: "Philippe Sonnet" > While trying to connect my PDP-8/L to the PC04 fast reader/puncher, I > realized that the schematics for the M705, M710 and M715 card posted by > David Gesswein > http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/queryb.pl?level=1m-series;id=689 > did not correspond to the ones I have. These are late "F" versions (1971). > These cards include several DEC9801 one-shot TTLs as well as 7475 TTLs. My > cards are 1969 versions and have no 9801 nor 7475. I think you mean 9601. Anyway, I searched my corner of the universe, and had no luck finding versions that don't use the 9601. However, I have done some work with CAD drawings of these cards, based on the assumption that I would have to build replacements, (rather than find original cards somewhere). So if that interests you (the M715 hasn't been finished yet), let me know (the replacements do not use the 9601, since they are no longer available). > My cards have been somewhat modified by the former owner of the PDP-8/L. I > have to understand what he did in order to repair them (most cards have to > be repaired because an overvoltage episode killed about one third of the > TTLs in my PDP-8/L) ! Ouch! Vince From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 8 18:53:44 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: leads for DEC logic lab Message-ID: <200509082353.QAA05331@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "vrs" ---snip--- > >What I did was buy a set of mini-banana to regular-banana adaptors, >which I got a good deal on, and a bunch of stackable regular-banana >patch-cords, which were also inexpensive. ---snip--- Where? Pomona wants an arm and a leg for these. They have the mini banana's as well, for a price. I'm interested in a cheap source of regular banana patch cords and also dual mini connector plugs. Dwight From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Sep 8 19:20:26 2005 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 19:20:26 -0500 Subject: DEC logic lab leads Message-ID: <000001c5b4d4$477e67a0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> I've reposted the image in "manual" mode for the luddites among us ;>) ! http://www.sideslip.net/dec_lab_leads/ Jack From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Sep 8 15:41:26 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 20:41:26 +0000 Subject: DEC logic lab leads In-Reply-To: <000001c5b4d4$477e67a0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <20050909003523.MAIK26967.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > I've reposted the image in "manual" mode for the luddites among us ;>) ! > > http://www.sideslip.net/dec_lab_leads/ > > Jack This is stackable mini-banana jumpers. Decent electronic suppliers can supply you some. Cheers, Wizard From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Sep 8 20:04:34 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 21:04:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <002401c5b4c9$696db1f0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: > I found the SN7485 and SN7486 but no SN7480 (or > at least no datasheet). 7480s were made by several manufacturers, but it was never a hugely popular chip - sort of in the "second-string" functions of early 74xx TTL. There are some real oddballs - 7459 is one (there was a thread on this a few yars ago). I forget what it is - and I am not going to looking it up again. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Sep 8 20:08:54 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 21:08:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <20050908174904.544716e7.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > That's true, but there are decades worth of NOS TTL chips on eBay. I've > gotten a bunch of them recently of the types I think I'll ever use. And > really cheap at that. And after those decades worth are gone, a few more decades worth will turn up with just a little looking. We will all be dead when the things become unobtainium. I am always getting into arguments with folks that are worried that the 1960s transistors used in early minicomputers (PDP-1s, Packard Bell 250, and the like) are "all gone" or "extremely rare". 'Taint true, Dooley - all you have to do is look. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Sep 8 20:54:47 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 20:54:47 -0500 Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: References: <002401c5b4c9$696db1f0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <20050908205447.0d9b1b5c.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 8 Sep 2005 21:04:34 -0400 (EDT) William Donzelli wrote: > > I found the SN7485 and SN7486 but no SN7480 (or > > at least no datasheet). > > 7480s were made by several manufacturers, but it was never a hugely > popular chip - sort of in the "second-string" functions of early 74xx > TTL. > > There are some real oddballs - 7459 is one (there was a thread on this > a few yars ago). I forget what it is - and I am not going to looking > it up again. > Has anybody ever tried to compile a complete, numerical list of the functions or even copies of the datasheets, for the entire 74xx series? Who was the issuer of the numbers who determined the sequence? I used to (it's not as easy to find anymore) love going into surplus stores and picking up random boards full of TTL, and figure out what the board was just by the TTL gate part numbers. From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Sep 8 21:01:46 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 22:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <20050908205447.0d9b1b5c.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > Has anybody ever tried to compile a complete, numerical list of the > functions or even copies of the datasheets, for the entire 74xx series? D.A.T.A. books. If you can find them, grab them. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vrs at msn.com Thu Sep 8 21:52:02 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 19:52:02 -0700 Subject: leads for DEC logic lab References: <200509082353.QAA05331@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Where? Pomona wants an arm and a leg for these. They have > the mini banana's as well, for a price. I'm interested in > a cheap source of regular banana patch cords and also > dual mini connector plugs. A local electronics store had them for an absurdly low price (which doesn't help you much). I do see a few on ePay (5807224489). Vince From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 01:13:21 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 01:13:21 -0500 Subject: Heathkit ET-3400 red filter material? Message-ID: As I restore this ET-3400, I am curious if anyone knows what kind of filter material Heathkit provided that sticks to the TIL312 7-segment displays? Mine have 4 of 6 displays covered, and 2 displays bare. It seems to be some sort of adhesive red tape or film, but I have no idea what to use for a modern substitute. Thanks for any tips. -ethan From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Fri Sep 9 01:20:43 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 16:20:43 +1000 Subject: VMS Question... In-Reply-To: <0IMF00N3Q2MX2GA9@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IMF00N3Q2MX2GA9@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <5CF538E6-354F-4BA0-9648-E4C6843813B5@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 07/09/2005, at 8:33 AM, Allison wrote: > > I even skip that. Most of the 3100s (and uVAX in general) can be > booted > and run headless. So when I need to connect to mine I use a VT1200 > Xterm > over the network and I suppose a PC could be configured for that. > That > reduces the working system to a pizza box somewhere in the room on the > network. My VAX4000VLC is set up to boot automatically and start networking so in general it's only got power and ethernet connected. At all times it also serves to lift my 17" LCD display up to a nice height when working with Mac OS-X. For portable VAX/VMS work, SIMH running on my Powerbook is certainly lots faster than the old 11/780s I used to manage (and a darned sight lighter :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From jnugen at one.woovis.com Fri Sep 9 02:25:20 2005 From: jnugen at one.woovis.com (James Nugen) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 03:25:20 -0400 Subject: Build a Functional Equivalent to the CDP1861 Message-ID: <432138E0.8030102@one.woovis.com> I saw this article in the latest (Sept. 2005) 'Circuit Cellar' and thought some of you 1802 fans might find it interesting: *Replacing a Legend: *Build a Functional Equivalent to the CDP1861* */Bob Armstrong /Bob built a functional equivalent to a CDP1861 video controller chip so he could play video games on his COSMAC Elf replica. The design includes two ATF22V10 GALs and a few standard 74HC chips. Ready to replace some random logic? /p. 58/ -James Nugen From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Fri Sep 9 03:37:52 2005 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 10:37:52 +0200 Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <432149E0.8050708@ais.fraunhofer.de> William Donzelli wrote: >>That's true, but there are decades worth of NOS TTL chips on eBay. I've >>gotten a bunch of them recently of the types I think I'll ever use. And >>really cheap at that. >> >> > >And after those decades worth are gone, a few more decades worth will turn >up with just a little looking. We will all be dead when the things become >unobtainium. > >I am always getting into arguments with folks that are worried that the >1960s transistors used in early minicomputers (PDP-1s, Packard Bell 250, >and the like) are "all gone" or "extremely rare". 'Taint true, Dooley - >all you have to do is look. > > > Concerning transistors of the 60s (even Germanium-type PNPs), I wouldn't have a problem to use modern types as replacements if the go or no-go of an old system would depend on it. Discrete electronic components are rarely a problem, even coils and transformers could be replaced. More difficult are certain kinds of integrated circuits. The mentioned 7480 is maybe hard to locate even as a datasheet (good idea to keep old TI TTL databook, IIRC also at bitsavers), and even more difficult to locate the chip itself, but this is a function that would easily fit into a GAL. A real problem are species what can't be simply replaced by some GAL, namely open collector components or "extendable" gates like the 7450. Replacing a single chip of such a kind usually means replacing its environment as well, e.g. that 7450 would then require to pull the extension gate (was it 7460, my memory is failing) as well. In the area of unobtainium, however, you usually don't find SSI or MSI circuits, but rather nasty special analog circuits and early LSI MOS circuits. Often a modern uC could emulate the latter, but this often needs significant tinkering for each problem, and an many cases also rewiring its environment. Surely the question original replacement vs. reengineered functionality has some religious aspect, but if it is the question of whether an old system should be left inoperable in a museum in contrast to actually switching its blinkinligths I favor reengineering. Regards Holger From James at jdfogg.com Fri Sep 9 08:44:13 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:44:13 -0400 Subject: Heathkit ET-3400 red filter material? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5738@sbs.jdfogg.com> > As I restore this ET-3400, I am curious if anyone knows what > kind of filter material Heathkit provided that sticks to the > TIL312 7-segment displays? Mine have 4 of 6 displays > covered, and 2 displays bare. It seems to be some sort of > adhesive red tape or film, but I have no idea what to use for > a modern substitute. > > Thanks for any tips. Two ideas come to mind - lighting gels, used in stage lighting, and Kodak makes lens filter gels in a huge range of colors. Both these items will appear to be colored sheets of plastic. In the case of the Kodak product, the "pass band" of the filter will be narrow and precise (an exact shade of a certain color and it won't pass much else). From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Sep 9 09:15:45 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 15:15:45 +0100 Subject: GPIB state machine info WTD Message-ID: Hi, Does anyone happen to have any data on the GPIB state machine, or perhaps a GPIB slave interface implemented in LSTTL? I'm trying to rig up a CPLD to take some of the load off the microprocessor in one of my projects, but the GPIB is troublesome to say the least. I've got a copy of the HP "Tutorial guide to HPIB" and "PET and the IEEE488 Bus", but none of them cover the state machine... Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... I may not always be perfect, but I'm always me. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Fri Sep 9 09:17:07 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 07:17:07 -0700 Subject: Seeking Bay Area collectors... Message-ID: <200509090717070826.001F9809@192.168.42.129> Fellow techies, I've been asked, on behalf of a friend of mine (John Lanfri), who does not have reliable Internet access at this time, to assist in finding those interested in acquiring a goodly collection of DEC'ish (pre-HP, pre-Compaq) hardware, software, and docs, along with various other Classic-era stuff which has yet to be unearthed. This may, depending on what he's getting rid of at the time, include such things as a fully-loaded PDP-11/34 with all docs, including field service prints, RSTS/E, spare disks (RL02's), TU10's, etc. It may also include an 11/73, rebuilt tri-density 9-track drives (I don't recall if they're Fujitsu or NEC, but I do recall that they've not been used since being refurbed), SMD disk drives, large and small, and other goodies too numerous to list. This project is long-term. It is expected to take place over the course of the next six months to a year. An inventory will be generated within the next couple of months. Shipping will NOT be available. Period. This will be exclusively local pickup in the San Jose/Santa Clara CA area. WHAT TO DO FOR NOW: Along with the inventory, we're working on generating a contact list. If you're interested in being kept up to date on this project, and would like to be among those offered the opportunity to acquire, please indicate as much in a private E-mail note to me, and please include a contact phone number. Either John or myself will contact those interested with further details of what's become available at what time. PRICING: I can't speak for John, 'cause it's all his stuff, but I will say that he's not going to gouge anyone. He's indicated to me that he's more interested in getting the stuff to those who can appreciate and use it than he is in making a fortune from it. Pricing for each item, or set of items, will be shown on the inventory. Some items may be tagged as 'Make an Offer' (which you should also do if you don't like the price shown -- John is an astute bargainer). ;-) Again, please remember -- BAY AREA LOCAL, or those who would be willing to drive to San Jose/Santa Clara ONLY. Shipping will NOT be available, and you may need (at minimum) a pickup or flatbed truck for some items. This will be noted on the inventory if a given item or set of items warrants it. Looking forward to hearing from those interested in this. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Sep 9 10:43:27 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 08:43:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Heathkit ET-3400 red filter material? Message-ID: <200509091543.IAA05762@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "James Fogg" > >> As I restore this ET-3400, I am curious if anyone knows what >> kind of filter material Heathkit provided that sticks to the >> TIL312 7-segment displays? Mine have 4 of 6 displays >> covered, and 2 displays bare. It seems to be some sort of >> adhesive red tape or film, but I have no idea what to use for >> a modern substitute. >> >> Thanks for any tips. > >Two ideas come to mind - lighting gels, used in stage lighting, and >Kodak makes lens filter gels in a huge range of colors. Both these items >will appear to be colored sheets of plastic. In the case of the Kodak >product, the "pass band" of the filter will be narrow and precise (an >exact shade of a certain color and it won't pass much else). > > Hi One might try an auto parts store. The often have some tape to cover broken tail lights. Dwight From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 10:50:22 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 11:50:22 -0400 Subject: Heathkit ET-3400 red filter material? In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5738@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E5738@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: On 9/9/05, James Fogg wrote: > > As I restore this ET-3400, I am curious if anyone knows what > > kind of filter material Heathkit provided that sticks to the > > TIL312 7-segment displays? > > Two ideas come to mind - lighting gels, used in stage lighting, and > Kodak makes lens filter gels in a huge range of colors. Both these items > will appear to be colored sheets of plastic. >From this and a couple of off-line suggestions, I guess I should be more precise in my description of the material in question. The ET-3400 has no bezel around the TIL-312 displays. The red filter material provided by Heathkit was pre-cut to the exact size of the face of each display, and sticks on by its own adhesive. It seems to be quite soft (vinyl-like as opposed to mylar-like) and quite thin - much thinner than scotch tape. I'm sure I can find some sort of red non-adhesive plastic, but I was really hoping to find the same sort of material they used so the displays match. Thanks, -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 10:53:20 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 11:53:20 -0400 Subject: GPIB state machine info WTD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/9/05, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi, > Does anyone happen to have any data on the GPIB state machine, or perhaps a > GPIB slave interface implemented in LSTTL? TNW made a serial interface for the PET that did not contain a microprocessor. Perhaps you could search for schematics on that. > I've got a copy of the HP "Tutorial guide to HPIB" and "PET and the IEEE488 > Bus", but none of them cover the state machine... With that as a guide, if you don't find an existing state machine, there's plenty of information to generate one of your own. You could even prototype one in software. -ethan From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Sep 9 11:21:50 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 11:21:50 -0500 Subject: Heathkit ET-3400 red filter material? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200509091632.j89GW1w4095985@keith.ezwind.net> ... > I'm sure I can find some sort of red non-adhesive plastic, > but I was really hoping to find the same sort of material > they used so the displays match. If matching is your main concern rather than strict authenticity then just replace all of them. Gil > > Thanks, > > -ethan > From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Fri Sep 9 11:29:15 2005 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (GManuel (GMC)) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 12:29:15 -0400 Subject: Heathkit ET-3400 red filter material? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks [mailto:ethan.dicks at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 11:50 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Heathkit ET-3400 red filter material? > > > On 9/9/05, James Fogg wrote: > > > As I restore this ET-3400, I am curious if anyone knows what > > > kind of filter material Heathkit provided that sticks to the > > > TIL312 7-segment displays? > > > > Two ideas come to mind - lighting gels, used in stage lighting, and > > Kodak makes lens filter gels in a huge range of colors. Both these items > > will appear to be colored sheets of plastic. > > >From this and a couple of off-line suggestions, I guess I should be > more precise in my description of the material in question. The > ET-3400 has no bezel around the TIL-312 displays. The red filter > material provided by Heathkit was pre-cut to the exact size of the > face of each display, and sticks on by its own adhesive. It seems to > be quite soft (vinyl-like as opposed to mylar-like) and quite thin - > much thinner than scotch tape. > > I'm sure I can find some sort of red non-adhesive plastic, but I was > really hoping to find the same sort of material they used so the > displays match. > > Thanks, > > -ethan > > How translucent or opaque is the material? I am thinking about maybe tail light repair tape used on cars. It is red, thin, fairly opaque in appearance (but allows the light through)and is self adhesive. It can be purchased at just about any auto parts store. May not be exactly what you are looking for but may work out well anyway. Then again it may be too opaque. Just a thought, Greg Manuel ==> See forgotten passwords befind **** asterisks: www.SeePassword.com From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Sep 9 11:53:56 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 12:53:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Heathkit ET-3400 red filter material? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Sep 2005, GManuel (GMC) wrote: > How translucent or opaque is the material? I am thinking about maybe tail > light repair tape used on cars. It is red, thin, fairly opaque in appearance > (but allows the light through)and is self adhesive. It can be purchased at > just about any auto parts store. May not be exactly what you are looking for > but may work out well anyway. Then again it may be too opaque. Also check out the colored acetate available at art supply stores. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Sep 9 12:06:25 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GPIB state machine info WTD Message-ID: <200509091706.KAA05774@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >On 9/9/05, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Hi, >> Does anyone happen to have any data on the GPIB state machine, or perhaps a >> GPIB slave interface implemented in LSTTL? > >TNW made a serial interface for the PET that did not contain a >microprocessor. Perhaps you could search for schematics on that. > >> I've got a copy of the HP "Tutorial guide to HPIB" and "PET and the IEEE488 >> Bus", but none of them cover the state machine... > >With that as a guide, if you don't find an existing state machine, >there's plenty of information to generate one of your own. You could >even prototype one in software. > >-ethan > > Hi As I recall, the GPIB chip made by TI ( forget the number ) had a data sheet that explained the states. Not much to it as I recall, mostly just handshake stuff and address recognition. It seemed like there was some timed stuff that might not work well in software but for the most part I'd suspect that Ethan is right, one could do it all in software. Dwight From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 9 12:10:02 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 13:10:02 -0400 Subject: Heathkit ET-3400 red filter material? References: Message-ID: <17185.49642.503328.212960@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Mike" == Mike Loewen writes: Mike> On Fri, 9 Sep 2005, GManuel (GMC) wrote: >> How translucent or opaque is the material? I am thinking about >> maybe tail light repair tape used on cars. It is red, thin, fairly >> opaque in appearance (but allows the light through)and is self >> adhesive. It can be purchased at just about any auto parts >> store. May not be exactly what you are looking for but may work >> out well anyway. Then again it may be too opaque. Mike> Also check out the colored acetate available at art supply Mike> stores. Classic acetate masking material is a bit orange, and also thin and crinkly, but it may serve. And art stores are likely to have other types of colored plastic. paul From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 13:34:02 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 11:34:02 -0700 Subject: Build a Functional Equivalent to the CDP1861 In-Reply-To: <432138E0.8030102@one.woovis.com> References: <432138E0.8030102@one.woovis.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e905090911346182a348@mail.gmail.com> On 9/9/05, James Nugen wrote: > I saw this article in the latest (Sept. 2005) 'Circuit Cellar' and > thought some of you 1802 fans might find it interesting: > > *Replacing a Legend: *Build a Functional Equivalent to the CDP1861* > */Bob Armstrong > /Bob built a functional equivalent to a CDP1861 video controller chip so > he could play video games on his COSMAC Elf replica. The design includes > two ATF22V10 GALs and a few standard 74HC chips. Ready to replace some > random logic? /p. 58/ > > -James Nugen > That article appears to come from the people of Spare Time Gizmos. http://www.sparetimegizmos.com I need to get an Elf 2000 board from them and build one. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 13:43:59 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 14:43:59 -0400 Subject: Build a Functional Equivalent to the CDP1861 In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e905090911346182a348@mail.gmail.com> References: <432138E0.8030102@one.woovis.com> <1e1fc3e905090911346182a348@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/9/05, Glen Slick wrote: > On 9/9/05, James Nugen wrote: > > I saw this article in the latest (Sept. 2005) 'Circuit Cellar' and > > thought some of you 1802 fans might find it interesting: > > > > *Replacing a Legend: *Build a Functional Equivalent to the CDP1861* > > That article appears to come from the people of Spare Time Gizmos. > > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com > > I need to get an Elf 2000 board from them and build one. I have one (and the STG1861). The Elf 2000 is assembled and works great. I'm verifying my disk I/O board (8-bit CF interface plus Dallas clock chip plus 16450/16550 UART) right now. I am out of ancient/recycled 22V10 GALs and am having problems getting set up to burn modern Atmel ATF22V10s, or I'd have a working STG1861 by now. One of my short-term project goals is to get ElfOS up on the Elf2000, then to get Zork running on it (using Mike Riley's 'zrun3' program I helped him debug). If you want a full-featured 1802 machine, I can totally recommend the Elf2000. It was easy to assemble and works great. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 13:52:30 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 14:52:30 -0400 Subject: GPIB state machine info WTD In-Reply-To: <200509091706.KAA05774@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200509091706.KAA05774@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On 9/9/05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > As I recall, the GPIB chip made by TI ( forget the number ) > had a data sheet that explained the states. Not much > to it as I recall, mostly just handshake stuff and address > recognition. The common chips are: TI TMS9914A NEC ?PD7210 http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/1267 > It seemed like there was some timed stuff that > might not work well in software but for the most part I'd > suspect that Ethan is right, one could do it all in software. One issue is to identify what GPIB devices you expect to talk to. Older ones, especially ones that implemented the protocol via ~1MHz 8-bit microprocessor, are unlikely to be able to handle 1MB/sec speeds that the newer "IEEE 488.2" devices can. If all you want to do is talk to old devices at a few KB/sec, it really doesn't matter if you have a hardware or a software implementation. For the newer, high-speed stuff, I'd expect you'd need an ASIC to pump the bytes through in a timely fashion. OTOH, even Commodore had a little fiddly hardware thing to handle handshaking turn-around. Andre Fachat mentions that in his extensive pages covering Commodore hardware and his own home-built mostly-PET-compatible 6502 computer. I do not know about the Commodore acoustic couple (C810?), but disks and printers tended to have 6502/6504/etc software implementation of GPIB. -ethan From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Fri Sep 9 14:17:42 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 15:17:42 -0400 Subject: GPIB state machine info WTD Message-ID: If you can find it, get a ROM dump or listing from one of the floppy drives like the 2031LP disk drive or the 2040 dual-drive. The 2031 is a 1541-looking GPIB floppy drive for the PET. http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/firmware/drives/old/2031/index.html Here are the ROMs. Just run them through a disassembler and see what you get. I haven't located a memory map yet. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 2:53 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: GPIB state machine info WTD On 9/9/05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > As I recall, the GPIB chip made by TI ( forget the number ) > had a data sheet that explained the states. Not much > to it as I recall, mostly just handshake stuff and address > recognition. The common chips are: TI TMS9914A NEC ?PD7210 http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/1267 > It seemed like there was some timed stuff that > might not work well in software but for the most part I'd > suspect that Ethan is right, one could do it all in software. One issue is to identify what GPIB devices you expect to talk to. Older ones, especially ones that implemented the protocol via ~1MHz 8-bit microprocessor, are unlikely to be able to handle 1MB/sec speeds that the newer "IEEE 488.2" devices can. If all you want to do is talk to old devices at a few KB/sec, it really doesn't matter if you have a hardware or a software implementation. For the newer, high-speed stuff, I'd expect you'd need an ASIC to pump the bytes through in a timely fashion. OTOH, even Commodore had a little fiddly hardware thing to handle handshaking turn-around. Andre Fachat mentions that in his extensive pages covering Commodore hardware and his own home-built mostly-PET-compatible 6502 computer. I do not know about the Commodore acoustic couple (C810?), but disks and printers tended to have 6502/6504/etc software implementation of GPIB. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 14:25:18 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 15:25:18 -0400 Subject: GPIB state machine info WTD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/9/05, Cini, Richard wrote: > If you can find it, get a ROM dump or listing from one of the floppy drives > like the 2031LP disk drive or the 2040 dual-drive. The 2031 is a > 1541-looking GPIB floppy drive for the PET. > > http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/firmware/drives/old/2031/index.html If you want to look at the circuit the 2031 uses... http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/schematics/drives/old/2031/page-28.gif (it's a 6522 VIA with 75160/75161 GPIB interface chips, much like a similar design I saw on a 3rd party VIC-20 GPIB interface) It's not what the original questor was after, but it might be helpful in trying to mark up a state machine based on how Commodore implemented GPIB (or to implement your own on another flavor of machine). -ethan From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Sep 9 14:59:51 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 15:59:51 -0400 Subject: was Re: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? now verilog In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 08 Sep 2005 16:05:47 PDT." <200509082305.QAA05320@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200509091959.j89Jxpr7001475@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > > Make the design race free. If by "race free", you mean "delay invariant" I agree whole heartedly, but I my first step is to simulate the old design w/o changes, so I'm stuck with it's issues. >I'm not sure if I understand you statement about accurate. >A NAND gate is a NAND function. Anything else is incorrect. I ment accurate in two ways. First, correct behavior (which is not as easy as I thought it would be) and second, "reasonably close timing". I initially added delays to match the original ttl parts but I've since backed off a bit and only added them in the memories. >I hope you are not trying to do timing verification with verilog modeling? No, not timing verification, but the design has some timing dependancies - mostly in areas of long propagation delays (i.e. slow parts caused problems). Once I have the original netlist working I plan to rewrite it in a more modern "vector" style, mostly for fun and as a learning exerience. But I want the original netlist as a baseline. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Sep 9 15:01:46 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 16:01:46 -0400 Subject: more datasheets - 25S09? Message-ID: <200509092001.j89K1kGi001597@mwave.heeltoe.com> ok, how about a 25S09 ? anyone have a data sheet? it's a flip flop -brad From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 9 15:32:37 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 21:32:37 +0100 Subject: mouse nipples Message-ID: <4321F165.8050102@yahoo.co.uk> The mouse cursor on this laptop (an aging Thinkpad) keeps on moving by itself - presumably the hardware side of it's the same on all laptops with a mouse nipple though. Anyone know if it's worth me trying to get underneath the keyboard to fix it (I assume it's a dirt-related problem) or is the problem more likely to be some sort of obscure software issue? (I have no idea when mouse nipples first appeared on laptops, but I imagine they're on topic just :-) cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 9 16:52:44 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 14:52:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: mouse nipples In-Reply-To: <4321F165.8050102@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4321F165.8050102@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050909145049.K10145@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 9 Sep 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > (I have no idea when mouse nipples first appeared on laptops, but I > imagine they're on topic just :-) Aren't you concerned about offending somebody by calling it a "nipple"? Before the product was released some IBM'ers behind the scenes called it "the clitoris" From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Sep 9 17:10:45 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 17:10:45 -0500 Subject: mouse nipples In-Reply-To: <20050909145049.K10145@shell.lmi.net> References: <4321F165.8050102@yahoo.co.uk> <20050909145049.K10145@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <43220865.7020800@mdrconsult.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 9 Sep 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > >>(I have no idea when mouse nipples first appeared on laptops, but I >>imagine they're on topic just :-) > > > Aren't you concerned about offending somebody by calling it a "nipple"? > > Before the product was released some IBM'ers behind the scenes > called it "the clitoris" I always hear it called "the clitoral cursor" Doc From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Sep 9 17:25:23 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 18:25:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: mouse nipples In-Reply-To: <20050909145049.K10145@shell.lmi.net> References: <4321F165.8050102@yahoo.co.uk> <20050909145049.K10145@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200509092226.SAA12228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> (I have no idea when mouse nipples first appeared on laptops, but I >> imagine they're on topic just :-) > Aren't you concerned about offending somebody by calling it a > "nipple"? Now now, if I want to take offense I can do so myself. :-) > Before the product was released some IBM'ers behind the scenes called > it "the clitoris" I don't find laptop cursor controls as much fun to play with, though. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Sep 9 17:45:57 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 23:45:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: mouse nipples In-Reply-To: <20050909145049.K10145@shell.lmi.net> References: <4321F165.8050102@yahoo.co.uk> <20050909145049.K10145@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1086.192.168.0.5.1126305957.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Aren't you concerned about offending somebody by calling it a "nipple"? > > Before the product was released some IBM'ers behind the scenes > called it "the clitoris" I've called it a Tit Mouse since the day they were released :) I think that's a bit more socially acceptable, but probably not by much. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From kittstr at earthlink.net Fri Sep 9 18:17:46 2005 From: kittstr at earthlink.net (Andrew Strouse) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 19:17:46 -0400 Subject: mouse nipples References: <4321F165.8050102@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <042201c5b594$b108ac10$019b9b9b@amscomputer> My old 701C used to do that all the time even when it was brand new, so I don't think it is a dirt issue. I found that if I left my finger on it to long with out moving it would start moving. I usually just pushed the ''nipple' hard opposite the way the coursor was moving and it would stop. HTH Andrew Strouse ( kittstr at earthlink.net ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 4:32 PM Subject: mouse nipples > > The mouse cursor on this laptop (an aging Thinkpad) keeps on moving by > itself - presumably the hardware side of it's the same on all laptops > with a mouse nipple though. Anyone know if it's worth me trying to get > underneath the keyboard to fix it (I assume it's a dirt-related problem) > or is the problem more likely to be some sort of obscure software issue? > > (I have no idea when mouse nipples first appeared on laptops, but I > imagine they're on topic just :-) > > cheers > > Jules > > From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Sep 9 18:20:55 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 19:20:55 -0400 Subject: is it just me ? :-) Message-ID: <200509092320.j89NKtji024490@mwave.heeltoe.com> Some day, before I die, I want to get everyone on this list in the same room (er, bar) and see all their faces, and the reactions on them, when someone starts a convertsation about a "tit mouse" :-) that just cracks me up. (did you ever see "bar fly"? Charles Bukowski is one of my heros) here's to everyone on this list! -brad From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Sep 9 18:26:35 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 19:26:35 -0400 Subject: is it just me ? :-) References: <200509092320.j89NKtji024490@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <013f01c5b595$f4c96100$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Parker" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 7:20 PM Subject: is it just me ? :-) > > Some day, before I die, I want to get everyone on this list in the same > room (er, bar) and see all their faces, and the reactions on them, > when someone starts a convertsation about a "tit mouse" :-) > > that just cracks me up. > > (did you ever see "bar fly"? Charles Bukowski is one of my heros) here's > to everyone on this list! > > -brad How many people are on the list anyway? From joe at barrera.org Fri Sep 9 18:42:14 2005 From: joe at barrera.org (Joe Barrera) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 16:42:14 -0700 Subject: mouse nipples In-Reply-To: <1086.192.168.0.5.1126305957.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <4321F165.8050102@yahoo.co.uk> <20050909145049.K10145@shell.lmi.net> <1086.192.168.0.5.1126305957.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <43221DD6.3070906@barrera.org> Witchy wrote: > I've called it a Tit Mouse since the day they were released :) I > think that's a bit more socially acceptable, but probably not by much. Well, Titmouse is a perfectly respectable term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titmouse These birds are called "chickadees" (derived from their distinctive "chick-a dee dee dee" alarm call) or "titmice" in North America, and just "tits" in the rest of the English speaking world. The name titmouse is attested from the 14th century, composed of the Old English name for the bird, mase (Proto-Germanic *maison) and tit, denoting something small. The spelling was influenced by mouse in the 16th century. "Chickadee" is onomatopoeic, i.e., sounds like the call of many North American species. And certainly, "tit" denoting something small certainly applies to the laptop titmouse. - Joe :-) From brian at quarterbyte.com Fri Sep 9 18:45:36 2005 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 16:45:36 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 in Volkswagen Message-ID: <4321BC30.30316.8DF918D9@localhost> Hi, First off, thanks to all who replied to my earlier question about the history of the CP/M BIOS. Now -- does anyone have a copy of the DEC magazine ad for the original PDP-8 that showed it in the back seat of a Volkswagen Beetle convertible? A high-res scan would be preferable, but whatever -- I can't find it using Google images. Thanks Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel _| _| _| Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 _| _| _| Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian at quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Sep 9 19:11:55 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:11:55 +0100 Subject: mouse nipples In-Reply-To: <042201c5b594$b108ac10$019b9b9b@amscomputer> References: <4321F165.8050102@yahoo.co.uk> <042201c5b594$b108ac10$019b9b9b@amscomputer> Message-ID: In message <042201c5b594$b108ac10$019b9b9b at amscomputer> "Andrew Strouse" wrote: > My old 701C used to do that all the time even when it was brand new, so I > don't think it is a dirt issue. I found that if I left my finger on it to > long with out moving it would start moving. I usually just pushed the > ''nipple' hard opposite the way the coursor was moving and it would stop. I've got a Toshiba T2130CS here that does the same thing. My mum's got a Compaq Evo N600C (weird thing - has a TrackPad and the Accupoint "tit-mouse") that does it too. I think it's some form of auto-calibration system, though it seems to screw up a lot more than I'd like. Thankfully Trackpads aren't anywhere near as bad (IMO). Not as good as a mouse, but good enough for computing on the go. Seeing as we're on the subject of laptops, does anyone have any Panasonic CF-VZS251 (I think that's the right part number...) batteries lying around? I've got a CF-25 Toughbook here that seems to have a duff battery (I'm getting about an hour out of it - it's a very old Li-ion). Either the Li-ion or NiMH version would be fine (though I suspect it'll be easier to get high-capacity NiMH cells than bodge some 18650 LiIons to fit). Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... RAM = Rarely Adequate Memory From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Sep 9 19:32:31 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:32:31 +0100 Subject: GPIB state machine info WTD In-Reply-To: References: <200509091706.KAA05774@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <6eacf1a74d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message Ethan Dicks wrote: > One issue is to identify what GPIB devices you expect to talk to. > Older ones, especially ones that implemented the protocol via ~1MHz > 8-bit microprocessor, are unlikely to be able to handle 1MB/sec speeds > that the newer "IEEE 488.2" devices can. If all you want to do is > talk to old devices at a few KB/sec, it really doesn't matter if you > have a hardware or a software implementation. For the newer, > high-speed stuff, I'd expect you'd need an ASIC to pump the bytes > through in a timely fashion. What I'm wanting to do is implement a slave device - in this case it'll be a data logger. The problem is, I don't want to end up tying up CPU resources monitoring the bus - it's going to be sharing the bus with a multimeter, a logic analyser and (if I ever get off my BFA and build the damn thing) a power supply. What I'm after is some way to receive data bytes into a buffer, then do some address-comparing and only interrupt the CPU if data arrives after an address match is detected. Most of the logic seems to be along the lines of (going from memory): ALWAYS @(posedge data_arrived) IF ATN = 1 THEN IF data_byte & 0xE0 == 0x20 THEN // TA IF data_byte & 0x1F == my_address THEN // Talking on CAN_TALK = 1 ENDIF IF data_bute & 0x1F == 0x1F THEN // UNTalk CAN_TALK = 0 ENDIF ENDIF // ... same sort of thing for Listen Addressing ENDIF END ALWAYS The problem is working out how to rig up a state machine or something similar to handle the handshaking... Trust me, if I had any spare MC68488s or similar, I'd use them. I've got some Fairchild 96LS488s, but no data at all. Finding a datasheet for the 96LS488 seems to be about as easy as finding 99.9999% pure Unobtainium. For master-side addressing I'm going to use the PC and a CEC GPIB card. Speed is not the big issue here - I'm doing this mostly for the "fun project" aspect. My idea of fun is, unfortunately, somewhat warped... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... (((((YOU)))))((((ARE))))((((((FEELING))))))(((((SLEEPY))))) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 9 19:03:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:03:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? : pdp2 In-Reply-To: <4320C80A.2050201@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Sep 8, 5 05:23:54 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >>Ummm what about a 7480 :) > > > > > > A gated full adder? (I had to look it up...). I have a data sheet which > > even includes a transistor-level schematic. > > > Hmm that is not web ... drat . > I am guessing that is about 15 ns delay. It would seem to be a lot slower than that... I have (typical/max in ns) t(PLH) (Cn to Cn+1/) 13/17 t(PHL) (Cn to Cn+1/) 8/12 t(PLH) (Bc to Cn+1/) 18/25 t(PHL) (Bc to Cn+1/) 38/55 t(PLH) (Ac to S) 52/70 t(PHL) (Ac to S) 62/80 t(PLH) (Bc to S/) 38/55 t(PHL) (Bc to S/) 56/75 t(PLH) (A1 to A*) 48/65 t(PHL) (A1 to A*) 17/25 t(PLH) (B1 to B*) 48/65 t(PHL) (B1 to B*) 17/25 The A*, B* outputs laoded with 15pf, the others loaded with the standard TTL load network. That's for a plain 7480, I can't find any other versions. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 9 19:06:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:06:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Sep 8, 5 09:04:34 pm Message-ID: > There are some real oddballs - 7459 is one (there was a thread on this a 7456 and 7457, which are /50 and /60 counters (to get 1Hz from european and US mains). AFAIK they're the only TTL chips in 8 pin packages. And the 74S262, which is a teletext-compatible character generator ROM. Very few databooks list that one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 9 19:37:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:37:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <432149E0.8050708@ais.fraunhofer.de> from "Holger Veit" at Sep 9, 5 10:37:52 am Message-ID: > The mentioned 7480 is maybe hard to locate even as a datasheet (good > idea to keep old TI TTL databook, IIRC Why do you think I keep (and actively grab) all old databooks :-) > also at bitsavers), and even more difficult to locate the chip itself, > but this is a function that would easily fit into a GAL. > A real problem are species what can't be simply replaced by some GAL, > namely open collector components or "extendable" > gates like the 7450. Replacing a single chip of such a kind usually I hate to tell you this, but the 7480 will not fit into a GAL. The A* and B* pins are effectively open-collector I/O with intenral (6k) pull-ups. You can extend the input gating via that pin, or you can monitor the output of the A1/A2 NAND gate there. > means replacing its environment as well, e.g. that 7450 would > then require to pull the extension gate (was it 7460, my memory is > failing) as well. Great fun if it happens to be on another board (did this ever happen?) > Surely the question original replacement vs. reengineered functionality > has some religious aspect, but if it is the question of whether > an old system should be left inoperable in a museum in contrast to > actually switching its blinkinligths I favor reengineering. Me too. Computers that don't work are not interesting. That said, I am in favour of doing as few mods as possible to the original machine. For example, I'd fit a turned-pin socket in place of the original chip and wire up a heeader to the replacement chip (maybe using stripboard or a PCB to make a plug-in module). That way, if I ever get the real part, I can go back to the original design. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 9 19:31:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:31:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: VMS Question... In-Reply-To: <5CF538E6-354F-4BA0-9648-E4C6843813B5@kerberos.davies.net.au> from "Huw Davies" at Sep 9, 5 04:20:43 pm Message-ID: > My VAX4000VLC is set up to boot automatically and start networking so [...] > is certainly lots faster than the old 11/780s I used to manage (and a > darned sight lighter :-) And a lot harder to repair... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 9 19:44:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:44:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: GPIB state machine info WTD In-Reply-To: from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 9, 5 03:15:45 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > Does anyone happen to have any data on the GPIB state machine, or perhaps a I built a GPIB interface from TTL years ago, from what I remember it was quite simple. Let me see if I can find schematics if you don't get more useful replies. I also designed a GPIB listener state machine in a GAL. Again I should have the equations somewhere... > GPIB slave interface implemented in LSTTL? I'm trying to rig up a CPLD to > take some of the load off the microprocessor in one of my projects, but the > GPIB is troublesome to say the least. > I've got a copy of the HP "Tutorial guide to HPIB" and "PET and the IEEE488 > Bus", but none of them cover the state machine... Be _very_ careful if you use designs intended for the PET. The PET was very forgiving in the timing of the peripherals. I have a commercial PET RS232 interface that contains a UART chip, RS232 buffers, a few TTL chips as SR latches to hold the talk and listen states, an EPROM as the code converter (PERSCI-ASCII) and talk/listen address detector) and another EPROM as the handshake control logic. Due to the fact there are no latches in the latter section, the timing goes all over the place. It works on the PET, it doesn't work on any HP machine I've tried it with. -tony From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Sep 9 21:15:18 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 22:15:18 -0400 Subject: mouse nipples In-Reply-To: <4321F165.8050102@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4321F165.8050102@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <432241B6.7030703@atarimuseum.com> Mouse nipple... thats a new one... The nipple - aka trackpoint or pencil eraser - Early TP's had a reset to 0 issue in the early drivers, all models would later have an updated driver that corrected the drifting. Have you friend update their trackpoint mouse driver from IBM TP driver matrix. Curt Jules Richardson wrote: > > The mouse cursor on this laptop (an aging Thinkpad) keeps on moving by > itself - presumably the hardware side of it's the same on all laptops > with a mouse nipple though. Anyone know if it's worth me trying to get > underneath the keyboard to fix it (I assume it's a dirt-related > problem) or is the problem more likely to be some sort of obscure > software issue? > > (I have no idea when mouse nipples first appeared on laptops, but I > imagine they're on topic just :-) > > cheers > > Jules > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/93 - Release Date: 9/8/2005 From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 9 21:14:13 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 19:14:13 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 in Volkswagen Message-ID: A 2" image of it appears in "Images of America, Digital Equipment Corporation" on page 28 The picture is from the front cover of "On Line" Mar-Apr 1965 From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Fri Sep 9 21:46:20 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 04:46:20 +0200 Subject: is it just me ? :-) References: <200509092320.j89NKtji024490@mwave.heeltoe.com> <013f01c5b595$f4c96100$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <004801c5b5b1$d3d3f750$2101a8c0@finans> Fra: "Teo Zenios" > > How many people are on the list anyway? > When I did my age survey, there were 86 replies. Should we guess : just over 100 active members ? Nico From news at computercollector.com Fri Sep 9 21:51:28 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 22:51:28 -0400 Subject: is it just me ? :-) In-Reply-To: <004801c5b5b1$d3d3f750$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <200509100300.j8A30tdc002983@keith.ezwind.net> Active, maybe, but more like 1,000 overall. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Nico de Jong Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: is it just me ? :-) Fra: "Teo Zenios" > > How many people are on the list anyway? > When I did my age survey, there were 86 replies. Should we guess : just over 100 active members ? Nico From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 9 22:02:30 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 04:02:30 +0100 Subject: is it just me ? :-) In-Reply-To: <013f01c5b595$f4c96100$0500fea9@game> References: <200509092320.j89NKtji024490@mwave.heeltoe.com> <013f01c5b595$f4c96100$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <43224CC6.5020008@yahoo.co.uk> Teo Zenios wrote: > >>Some day, before I die, I want to get everyone on this list in the same >>room (er, bar) and see all their faces, and the reactions on them, >>when someone starts a convertsation about a "tit mouse" :-) >> > > How many people are on the list anyway? Dunno, but twice as many nipples as there are people at a guess... From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 9 22:06:40 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 22:06:40 -0500 Subject: is it just me ? :-) References: <200509100300.j8A30tdc002983@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <007601c5b5b4$ab021bb0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Evan wrote... > Active, maybe, but more like 1,000 overall. Higher. > When I did my age survey, there were 86 replies. Should we guess : just > over > 100 active members ? Probably about right. But it's hard to count. I notice there are a ton of people who lurk. Rarely or never posting. But when something goes wrong with the list I get emails from them quickly. Hence, I know they're there :> So it depends. If by active you mean "conversation and posting", about 100 is probably right. If by active you mean people who regularly read the list, the number is many times that. Jay From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Fri Sep 9 22:18:41 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 22:18:41 -0500 Subject: is it just me ? :-) In-Reply-To: <007601c5b5b4$ab021bb0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200509100300.j8A30tdc002983@keith.ezwind.net> <007601c5b5b4$ab021bb0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <43225091.8060309@vzavenue.net> Jay West wrote: > Probably about right. But it's hard to count. I notice there are a ton > of people who lurk. Rarely or never posting. But when something goes > wrong with the list I get emails from them quickly. Hence, I know > they're there :> So it depends. If by active you mean "conversation > and posting", about 100 is probably right. If by active you mean > people who regularly read the list, the number is many times that. > > Jay > I don't post much. I'm totally not into big iron and don't like to get involved in the pissing contests that seem to erupt on the list. But I'm still here lurking. James -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From recycler at swbell.net Fri Sep 9 23:04:06 2005 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 23:04:06 -0500 Subject: mouse nipples In-Reply-To: <4321F165.8050102@yahoo.co.uk> References: <4321F165.8050102@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43225B36.1020509@swbell.net> My dell had that. There was a firmware patch for it. Was not due to age, however. Jules Richardson wrote: > > The mouse cursor on this laptop (an aging Thinkpad) keeps on moving by > itself - presumably the hardware side of it's the same on all laptops > with a mouse nipple though. Anyone know if it's worth me trying to get > underneath the keyboard to fix it (I assume it's a dirt-related problem) > or is the problem more likely to be some sort of obscure software issue? > > (I have no idea when mouse nipples first appeared on laptops, but I > imagine they're on topic just :-) > > cheers > > Jules > > > From brian at quarterbyte.com Sat Sep 10 01:25:12 2005 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 23:25:12 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 in Volkswagen Message-ID: <432219D8.31165.8F66F2AF@localhost> Got it, thanks! From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sat Sep 10 03:01:48 2005 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 18:01:48 +1000 Subject: VMS Question... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <340BD692-E67B-4132-AB43-337D567792DB@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 10/09/2005, at 10:31 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> My VAX4000VLC is set up to boot automatically and start networking so >> > > [...] > > >> is certainly lots faster than the old 11/780s I used to manage (and a >> darned sight lighter :-) >> > > And a lot harder to repair... Nah - there's only one board to replace (or go wrong) :-) I used to maintain 780s, 8650s and 8800s so I know where Tony's coming from here although I was more of a diagnose then board swap kind of guy whereas I know Tony fixes at the IC level. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Sep 10 03:17:54 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 09:17:54 +0100 Subject: VMS Question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004301c5b5e0$26654540$5b01a8c0@pc1> Tony Duell wrote: > And a lot harder to repair... Although I've seen it done remotely on this very list for either a VLS or a VS4000-60. Perhaps 780s just don't break :-) Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 10 04:53:34 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 05:53:34 -0400 Subject: VMS Question... In-Reply-To: <004301c5b5e0$26654540$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <004301c5b5e0$26654540$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <4322AD1E.nail3WT11KYTI@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> >> [VS4000 vs 11/780] >> And a lot harder to repair... > Although I've seen it done remotely on this very list for > either a VLS or a VS4000-60. Perhaps 780s just don't break :-) Realistically 11/780's are now of an age that contact reliability for all those cards is the biggest issue. 4000-60's aren't spring chickens either but they have a lot fewer components and way way fewer sockets/contacts. I've done component-level repair on both 11/780 systems and 4000-60 systems but it was always at the line-driver/memory chip level, i.e. parts that are very easy to isolate and diagnose often through the very process of swapping out stuff at the board-level. VAX6000 systems are probably the ultimate in over-engineering for reliability and although they've got a lot fewer boards than a 11/780 they still have some BI-bus contact reliability issues despite a much slicker edge connector and less age. Tim. From vcf at siconic.com Sat Sep 10 07:46:29 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 05:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: is it just me ? :-) In-Reply-To: <43225091.8060309@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Sep 2005, James Rice wrote: > I don't post much. I'm totally not into big iron and don't like to get > involved in the pissing contests that seem to erupt on the list. But > I'm still here lurking. I don't know what you're talking about. This is afterall a pissing contest mailing list with a side interest in vintage computers. Kind of in the same vein of going to a fight and seeing a hockey game break out ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From allain at panix.com Sat Sep 10 07:07:36 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 08:07:36 -0400 Subject: is it just me ? :-) References: <200509100300.j8A30tdc002983@keith.ezwind.net> <007601c5b5b4$ab021bb0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <026801c5b600$3c0f0640$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > (Jay) I notice there are a ton of people who lurk. > Rarely or never posting. When I lurk I do it as a courtesy to prevent blather-feed-forward loops. That is, when everyone tries to get in on the same bad joke or whatever and the few (hundred!) lurkers that remain have to delete 120 messages a day for four consecutive days. Another courtesy I practice is when a question I can answer comes up, I read till end of list to see if it's already been answered and let that be too. On questions where I know there are better experts present I'll wait a half day or so for them, then answer if there's still nothing. > (James) ... the pissing contests that seem to erupt on the list. The correct term, unfortunately. John A. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Sep 10 09:25:19 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 15:25:19 +0100 Subject: GPIB state machine info WTD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30eb3da84d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I built a GPIB interface from TTL years ago, from what I remember it was > quite simple. Let me see if I can find schematics if you don't get more > useful replies. That's great - thanks. I've dug up a copy of the TMS9914 datasheet, which seems to be 8 pages of "this register bit does {X}, this one does {Y}". Either I'm missing part of the datasheet, or it doesn't cover the GPIB states at all. > I also designed a GPIB listener state machine in a GAL. Again I should > have the equations somewhere... I think I saw that somewhere.. A PET GPIB to Centronics adapter, right? > Be _very_ careful if you use designs intended for the PET. The PET was > very forgiving in the timing of the peripherals. I have a commercial PET > RS232 interface that contains a UART chip, RS232 buffers, a few TTL chips > as SR latches to hold the talk and listen states, an EPROM as the code > converter (PERSCI-ASCII) and talk/listen address detector) and another > EPROM as the handshake control logic. Due to the fact there are no > latches in the latter section, the timing goes all over the place. It > works on the PET, it doesn't work on any HP machine I've tried it with. Well, if it only just works on a 2MHz 6502, it's a sure bet it'll probably fail at 8MHz. I only wanted the IEEE488 part of the interface anyway - the CPU interfacing gubbins2 Thanks, -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... I'm in shape ... Round is a shape isn't it? From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Sep 10 10:15:42 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:15:42 -0500 Subject: VMS Question... In-Reply-To: <004301c5b5e0$26654540$5b01a8c0@pc1> References: <004301c5b5e0$26654540$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <200509101015.43245.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 10 September 2005 03:17, a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > And a lot harder to repair... > > Although I've seen it done remotely on this very list for > either a VLS or a VS4000-60. Perhaps 780s just don't break :-) Go ahead and tell that to the machine in my garage... I still need to find some time to repair its CIB (Console Interface Board) and see if there's anything else that has failed on it. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Sep 10 10:22:13 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:22:13 -0500 Subject: is it just me ? :-) References: <200509100300.j8A30tdc002983@keith.ezwind.net><007601c5b5b4$ab021bb0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <026801c5b600$3c0f0640$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <005201c5b61b$6c2651b0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I had written.... >> (Jay) I notice there are a ton of people who lurk. >> Rarely or never posting. I don't know if it came across or not... but I wasn't trying to mention "lurking" in a negative light. I don't have a problem with it at all. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Sep 10 10:22:59 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:22:59 -0500 Subject: is it just me ? :-) References: Message-ID: <005f01c5b61b$d0a05d70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote.... > I don't know what you're talking about. This is afterall a pissing > contest mailing list with a side interest in vintage computers. I wholeheartedly disagree. But that's just my own opinion. Jay From vcf at siconic.com Sat Sep 10 10:41:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 08:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: is it just me ? :-) In-Reply-To: <005f01c5b61b$d0a05d70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Sep 2005, Jay West wrote: > Sellam wrote.... > > I don't know what you're talking about. This is afterall a pissing > > contest mailing list with a side interest in vintage computers. > I wholeheartedly disagree. But that's just my own opinion. The smiley came at the end of the message ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From allain at panix.com Sat Sep 10 11:04:15 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:04:15 -0400 Subject: is it just me ? :-) References: <005f01c5b61b$d0a05d70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <005d01c5b621$4b865d00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Sellam wrote.... >> I don't know what you're talking about. This is afterall a pissing >> contest mailing list with a side interest in vintage computers. > I wholeheartedly disagree. But that's just my own opinion. No, It's more than just a minority opinion -- It's the vast majority of us, I'd bet. John A. From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Sep 10 11:31:03 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 09:31:03 -0700 Subject: "rescue" from work- anybody need Apple IIe/II+/IIc Print Shop? Message-ID: <589e6eefc5a6b47f685661009b1bed81@valleyimplants.com> Pulled this out of a trash can yesterday- Broderbund's Print Shop for the Apple II+, IIe, IIc (and greater). In original blue box with the paper and envelopes inside, wohoo. I have no Apple II equipment, but I didn't want to see it junked, so does anybody want it? I'd like whoever wants it to consent to a "no-sale" agreement, since it came out of a school. From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sat Sep 10 11:37:24 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 11:37:24 -0500 Subject: "rescue" from work- anybody need Apple IIe/II+/IIc Print Shop? In-Reply-To: <589e6eefc5a6b47f685661009b1bed81@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200509101647.j8AGlYpi008000@keith.ezwind.net> ... > Pulled this out of a trash can yesterday- Broderbund's Print > Shop for the Apple II+, IIe, IIc (and greater). In original > blue box with the paper and envelopes inside, wohoo. I have > no Apple II equipment, but I didn't want to see it junked, so > does anybody want it? > > I'd like whoever wants it to consent to a "no-sale" > agreement, since it came out of a school. Even thought it came out of the trash? Still, I would be happy to give it a home, even with the stipulation. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Sep 10 11:48:13 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 17:48:13 +0100 Subject: GPIB state machine info WTD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005401c5b627$707d8060$5b01a8c0@pc1> I don't think page has been mentioned: http://www.physics.brocku.ca/~edik/gpib/ There's a reference manual (254 pages!) for a Nat. Semi. equivalent to the TMS9914. I also have a copy of IEEE 488.2 somewhere, email me if you think it mught be useful. There's alo a GPIB FAQ around out there somewhere. HTH, Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Sep 10 11:47:53 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 12:47:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: is it just me ? :-) In-Reply-To: <005d01c5b621$4b865d00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <005f01c5b61b$d0a05d70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <005d01c5b621$4b865d00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200509101649.MAA25408@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> I don't know what you're talking about. This is afterall a pissing >>> contest mailing list with a side interest in vintage computers. >> I wholeheartedly disagree. But that's just my own opinion. > No, It's more than just a minority opinion -- It's the vast majority > of us, I'd bet. I dunno. Are we talking about what it is supposed to be, what it should be, or what it actually is? It seems depressingly accurate as a description of what the list really is, though that may just be perception skewed by recent traffic.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From allain at panix.com Sat Sep 10 12:05:40 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 13:05:40 -0400 Subject: is it just me ? :-) References: <005f01c5b61b$d0a05d70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP><005d01c5b621$4b865d00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <200509101649.MAA25408@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <00ab01c5b629$e0271820$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > It seems depressingly accurate as a description > of what the list really is, ... More of a 'list has been', THX Jay. I beat the wrong dead horse here. The list is mostly free of "that problem" it would be wrong to say "that problem" is acceptable. But right to say "that problem" is mostly gone as it is. John A. sending the dead horse off to Michael Brown. From bert at brothom.nl Sat Sep 10 13:32:00 2005 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 19:32:00 +0100 Subject: is it just me ? :-) In-Reply-To: <00ab01c5b629$e0271820$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <005f01c5b61b$d0a05d70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP><005d01c5b621$4b865d00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <200509101649.MAA25408@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00ab01c5b629$e0271820$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <432326A0.9080908@brothom.nl> John Allain wrote: >>It seems depressingly accurate as a description >>of what the list really is, ... > > > More of a 'list has been', THX Jay. > I beat the wrong dead horse here. > The list is mostly free of "that problem" > it would be wrong to say "that problem" is acceptable. > But right to say "that problem" is mostly gone as it is. > > John A. > sending the dead horse off to Michael Brown. Forgive me my ignorance but I'm lost...I have no idea what you people are talking about here... Confused... Bert From wpointon at earthlink.net Sat Sep 10 14:27:11 2005 From: wpointon at earthlink.net (william pointon) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 15:27:11 -0400 Subject: mouse nipples In-Reply-To: <200509092226.SAA12228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: wrecks the damned keyboard when you lick them too - billp On Friday, Sep 9, 2005, at 18:25 US/Eastern, der Mouse wrote: >>> (I have no idea when mouse nipples first appeared on laptops, but I >>> imagine they're on topic just :-) >> Aren't you concerned about offending somebody by calling it a >> "nipple"? > > Now now, if I want to take offense I can do so myself. :-) > >> Before the product was released some IBM'ers behind the scenes called >> it "the clitoris" > > I don't find laptop cursor controls as much fun to play with, though. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 10 15:43:45 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 21:43:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: GPIB state machine info WTD In-Reply-To: <30eb3da84d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 10, 5 03:25:19 pm Message-ID: > > I also designed a GPIB listener state machine in a GAL. Again I should > > have the equations somewhere... > > I think I saw that somewhere.. A PET GPIB to Centronics adapter, right? Actaully, a PERQ centronics interface, but I can't see any good reason why it wouldn't work with a PET (although it doesn't do any kind of code conversion. > > > Be _very_ careful if you use designs intended for the PET. The PET was > > very forgiving in the timing of the peripherals. I have a commercial PET > > RS232 interface that contains a UART chip, RS232 buffers, a few TTL chips > > as SR latches to hold the talk and listen states, an EPROM as the code > > converter (PERSCI-ASCII) and talk/listen address detector) and another > > EPROM as the handshake control logic. Due to the fact there are no > > latches in the latter section, the timing goes all over the place. It > > works on the PET, it doesn't work on any HP machine I've tried it with. > > Well, if it only just works on a 2MHz 6502, it's a sure bet it'll probably > fail at 8MHz. > I only wanted the IEEE488 part of the interface anyway - the CPU interfacing > gubbins2 No, you misunderstood me. There is no CPU involved in this serial adapter. The EPROM is the logic for the GPIB handashake. It's the GPIB timing that's way out. It works with a PET as the other side of the link because the PET does all the handshaking in software, so it's pretty forgiving about timing problems. But this seiral adapter will _not_ with, say, a 9914 as the other device on the bus.. -tony From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat Sep 10 20:28:35 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 18:28:35 -0700 Subject: SWPC Digi-Vista Nixie Clock Message-ID: <001d01c5b670$2b769030$0300a8c0@downstairs2> I finished my Nixie tube clock. (My first try at this was around 1971.) http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Dec1970/PE_Dec1970.htm I could not figure out how to wire the tens of hours module to the hours module. The magazine article was very vague and even misleading about that. So one night I sent an email to Gary Kay, the designer, and the next morning I had a response. How is that for tech support 35 years after the fact? Gary Kay later designed many of the SWTPC 6800 computer systems. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/History/Gary_Kay.htm http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/BYTE/BYTE.HTM Michael Holley From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Sep 10 20:40:41 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 20:40:41 -0500 Subject: VAX 8550 & DEC available Message-ID: <002701c5b671$d1fdad70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I didn't want to post this, cause it wasn't on-topic & all according to some...Would someone be interested in a early 80's VAX 8550 w/peripherals? If someone is interested in the below please contact me off list. I may be interested in the TU/A81. I'm guessing from the sound of it that he doesn't have the computer console for the 8550. Jay West -------------------- I got this unit (and the others soon to be described) from a liquidation. Right now, I am more interested in moving them than making money on them. I would greatly prefer that someone pick them up rather than ship them but I will accommodate any type of shipping. Digital TA81 Digital TU81 Digital VAX 8550 Digital H8C40 SC008 - AC 64AMA-YE There are a few more items but I cannot find a serial number on them. They are cabinet-like like the VAX. Although there is one monitor, everything else is cabinet size. That means no manuals, disks or software that I can see. I haven't really dug into them to see what's in them. Everything is located in Chattanooga Tennessee. Thanks for the help. I would much rather a collector get these than selling them for scrap. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 10 20:46:41 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 18:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX 8550 & DEC available In-Reply-To: <002701c5b671$d1fdad70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <002701c5b671$d1fdad70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20050910184409.B68914@shell.lmi.net> > I didn't want to post this, cause it wasn't on-topic & all according to > some...Would someone be interested in a early 80's VAX 8550 w/peripherals? 20 years old?, and way cooler than a PC? If THAT isn't on-topic, then we should let Jay decide whether to make an exception. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 10 21:45:57 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 20:45:57 -0600 Subject: SWPC Digi-Vista Nixie Clock In-Reply-To: <001d01c5b670$2b769030$0300a8c0@downstairs2> References: <001d01c5b670$2b769030$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <43239A65.2070601@jetnet.ab.ca> Michael Holley wrote: > I finished my Nixie tube clock. (My first try at this was around 1971.) > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Dec1970/PE_Dec1970.htm > > I could not figure out how to wire the tens of hours module to the hours > module. The magazine article was very vague and even misleading about that. > So one night I sent an email to Gary Kay, the designer, and the next > morning I had a response. How is that for tech support 35 years after > the fact? Grumble Grumble Grumble ... Gripe Gripe Gripe. I would have updated the high voltage power supply to a simple transistor regulator. I have about 128 AC around here and that can really give over voltage on 115 V transformers. PS. Where do you find a 300 V transformer ... I may build one some day. Also any options for a ALARM feature? Say a analog bird chipring sound? > Gary Kay later designed many of the SWTPC 6800 computer systems. > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/History/Gary_Kay.htm > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/BYTE/BYTE.HTM I keep drooling over SWTPC products... I wish that made it big rather than PC's. > Michael Holley > > > . > From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat Sep 10 23:07:11 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 21:07:11 -0700 Subject: SWTPC Digi-Vista Nixie Clock References: <200509101700.j8AH03MO006560@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002201c5b686$50f20b80$0300a8c0@downstairs2> > I would have updated the high voltage power supply to a simple > transistor regulator. I have about 128 AC around here and that > can really give over voltage on 115 V transformers. > PS. Where do you find a 300 V transformer ... I may build one > some day. Also any options for a ALARM feature? Say a analog > bird chipring sound? I wanted to build an exact copy of what was in the magazines. I found all of the parts, some were slightly different. The MJE3055 power transistor came in a TO-127 package, The MJE3055T is now more common but comes in a TO-220 package. I made the board for the TO-220 package. (The TO-127 style cost me $15 the last time I needed one.) I got the Stancor PS-8416 (250 VCT) power transformer on eBay, two of them cost me about $25 including shipping. The seller, solderfume, has more for sale now, see eBay item 5807358404. I ordered boards for 3 units. I work with a guy who is restoring a 1957 Ford Panel truck that he got from his late uncle. This is a 3 or 4 year project. He doesn't understand why I restore TV Typewriters, 6800 computers and such. What good are they? Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Sep 11 06:51:41 2005 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 07:51:41 -0400 Subject: SWTPC6800...Re: SWPC Digi-Vista Nixie Clock In-Reply-To: <001d01c5b670$2b769030$0300a8c0@downstairs2> References: <001d01c5b670$2b769030$0300a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <43241A4D.6060600@comcast.net> Michael, I remember reading about that project too back then. My old brother had that mag and I would always borrow it. I just dug out my SWTPC 6800 (both) from the garage this past summer. An old buddy let me have these way back after he was tired of it. This also came with the docs and a bunch of boards too. I hope I can ping some questions to you when I'm working on this. Right now, I'm getting our Altair 680b he bought back then restored plus some other machines. I'm trying to get these ready in time for VCF East 3 in NJ. =Dan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [My Corner of Cyberspace http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/] [Pittsburgh Robotics Society http://www.pghrobotics.org/] [Pittsburgh Vintage Comp.Society http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/] [Hurricane-Help contact our relatives http://www.familylinks.icrc.org/katrina/] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Michael Holley wrote: > I finished my Nixie tube clock. (My first try at this was around 1971.) > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Dec1970/PE_Dec1970.htm > > I could not figure out how to wire the tens of hours module to the > hours module. The magazine article was very vague and even misleading > about that. > So one night I sent an email to Gary Kay, the designer, and the next > morning I had a response. How is that for tech support 35 years after > the fact? > > Gary Kay later designed many of the SWTPC 6800 computer systems. > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/History/Gary_Kay.htm > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/BYTE/BYTE.HTM > > Michael Holley > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/93 - Release Date: 9/8/2005 From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sun Sep 11 07:24:38 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 14:24:38 +0200 Subject: Manual TEAC MT-2ST Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050911142436.030c6898@mail.zeelandnet.nl> I just acquired a TEAC MT-2ST tape drive with an Genoa System QIC-02 ISA 8-Bit Adapter and was wondering if anyone here perhaps had a manual for either the card and/or the drive itself ? For your information, this drive is 5,25" in format and takes normal cassettes, thought it was a pretty nice find. Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.computer-museum.net From bernd at kopriva.de Sun Sep 11 07:49:52 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 14:49:52 +0200 Subject: Manual TEAC MT-2ST In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050911142436.030c6898@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Message-ID: <20050911115331.47F31395B5@linux.local> Hi Stefan, you can try http://www.teac.com/DSPD/catalog.htm#TBU, there you should find some information ... Ciao Bernd On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 14:24:38 +0200, Stefan wrote: >I just acquired a TEAC MT-2ST tape drive with an Genoa System QIC-02 >ISA 8-Bit Adapter and was wondering if anyone here perhaps had a >manual for either the card and/or the drive itself ? > >For your information, this drive is 5,25" in format and takes normal >cassettes, thought it was a pretty nice find. > >Stefan. > >------------------------------------------------------- >http://www.computer-museum.net > > > > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Sep 11 08:00:23 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 14:00:23 +0100 Subject: GPIB state machine info WTD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93fab9a84d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Actaully, a PERQ centronics interface, but I can't see any good reason > why it wouldn't work with a PET (although it doesn't do any kind of code > conversion. That's the one! A couple of 16V8s and a 20V8, right? > No, you misunderstood me. There is no CPU involved in this serial > adapter. The EPROM is the logic for the GPIB handashake. It's the GPIB > timing that's way out. It works with a PET as the other side of the link > because the PET does all the handshaking in software, so it's pretty > forgiving about timing problems. But this seiral adapter will _not_ with, > say, a 9914 as the other device on the bus.. Ah. Probably better to use that as an example of how not to design a GPIB interface, I guess. Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Multitasking causes schizophrenia.. From dzubint at vcn.bc.ca Sun Sep 11 10:03:32 2005 From: dzubint at vcn.bc.ca (Thomas Dzubin) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 08:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Yes, I am a perpetual lurker (was: RE: is it just me ? :-)) Message-ID: My personality is that of an introvert, so I tend to lurk here and "in the real world" too (I'm the quiet one in company meetings). I think I last posted on this list a couple of years ago (until today anyway). For the record, since I didn't respond to the previously mentioned age survey...I'm 42, married, got my B.Sc. in Computer Science in the 1980s, and I have a collection of VAX and PDP-11 systems in my basement that I power up regularily, and a random bunch of Radio-Shack, Commodore, and early IBM-Compatibles that I power up a few times a year, as well as a SIMH HP2000F system that I love to tinker with since it was the first system that I ever worked on back in the 1970s. (I'd love to have a "real" HP2000F, but I think my wife would object to any more stuff in the basement... SIMH & TS10 are a big help there) ...and I'm currently on a Mac mini running OSX 10.4 telnetted into a SUN system and using PINE to email this to the list! Thomas Dzubin Calgary, Saskatoon, or Vancouver CANADA From vcf at siconic.com Sun Sep 11 10:35:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 08:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Manual TEAC MT-2ST In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050911142436.030c6898@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Sep 2005, Stefan wrote: > I just acquired a TEAC MT-2ST tape drive with an Genoa System QIC-02 > ISA 8-Bit Adapter and was wondering if anyone here perhaps had a > manual for either the card and/or the drive itself ? > > For your information, this drive is 5,25" in format and takes normal > cassettes, thought it was a pretty nice find. Are you sure it uses "normal" (i.e. audio) cassettes? These drives normally use digital cassette tapes. They have a square notch in the top of the cassette housing. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sun Sep 11 12:13:23 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 19:13:23 +0200 Subject: Manual TEAC MT-2ST In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050911142436.030c6898@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050911191133.02e11fe0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Ah yes correct, a TEAC tape came with it and that has a notch removed in the middle of the tape. And you can also see that its not a normal tape because on the back it says "This is back side. Unuseable" :-) Anyway, as soon as I can I will try this thingie out :) Stefan. At 17:35 11-9-2005, you wrote: >On Sun, 11 Sep 2005, Stefan wrote: > > > I just acquired a TEAC MT-2ST tape drive with an Genoa System QIC-02 > > ISA 8-Bit Adapter and was wondering if anyone here perhaps had a > > manual for either the card and/or the drive itself ? > > > > For your information, this drive is 5,25" in format and takes normal > > cassettes, thought it was a pretty nice find. > >Are you sure it uses "normal" (i.e. audio) cassettes? These drives >normally use digital cassette tapes. They have a square notch in the top >of the cassette housing. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Sep 11 12:58:31 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 12:58:31 -0500 Subject: Fw: New Toy Coming Message-ID: <00aa01c5b6fa$6d3ef950$61406b43@66067007> First message came back? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keys" To: "cctalk at classiccmp" Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 11:11 AM Subject: New Toy Coming > First part of October I will be getting a custom build prom-programmer > with software that programs and reads 2716's. And two Tektronix tube > scopes, one from 1954 and one from 1960. Also a prototype Commodore 64. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 11 12:36:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 18:36:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAX 8550 & DEC available In-Reply-To: <002701c5b671$d1fdad70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Sep 10, 5 08:40:41 pm Message-ID: > > I didn't want to post this, cause it wasn't on-topic & all according to > some...Would someone be interested in a early 80's VAX 8550 w/peripherals? If VAX 8550s are off-topic here, then I'm on the wrong list! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 11 12:38:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 18:38:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: GPIB state machine info WTD In-Reply-To: <93fab9a84d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 11, 5 02:00:23 pm Message-ID: > > Actaully, a PERQ centronics interface, but I can't see any good reason > > why it wouldn't work with a PET (although it doesn't do any kind of code > > conversion. > > That's the one! A couple of 16V8s and a 20V8, right? We can't be looking at the same thing. My PERQ Centronics interface (which is a GPIB Listener) is a coupke of 16V8s and about 4 TTL chips. I can try to find the info on it if you're interested... -tonu From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 14:24:07 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 14:24:07 -0500 Subject: VAX 8550 & DEC available In-Reply-To: References: <002701c5b671$d1fdad70$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On 9/11/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I didn't want to post this, cause it wasn't on-topic & all according to > > some...Would someone be interested in a early 80's VAX 8550 w/peripherals? > > > If VAX 8550s are off-topic here, then I'm on the wrong list! Maybe this one is running Windows? :-) -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Sep 11 19:04:19 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 19:04:19 -0500 Subject: Yes, I am a perpetual lurker (was: RE: is it just me ? :-)) References: Message-ID: <004a01c5b72d$86bf6a30$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Thomas wrote... > any more stuff in the basement... SIMH & TS10 are a big help there) > ...and I'm currently on a Mac mini running OSX 10.4 telnetted into a SUN Don't know if this came up before or not... but speaking of simulators - Is anyone aware of a simulator for Prime 50-series machines that will run Primos? I googled and came up empty. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Sep 11 19:07:22 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 19:07:22 -0500 Subject: VAX 8550 & DEC available References: Message-ID: <00d101c5b72d$f3626390$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony & Ethan wrote... > If VAX 8550s are off-topic here, then I'm on the wrong list! I was being facetious, and after re-reading prior posts discovered I was off-base for being so. My apologies! Jay From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 19:12:05 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 20:12:05 -0400 Subject: Manual TEAC MT-2ST In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050911142436.030c6898@mail.zeelandnet.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050911142436.030c6898@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Message-ID: <4324C7D5.70204@gmail.com> Stefan wrote: > I just acquired a TEAC MT-2ST tape drive with an Genoa System QIC-02 ISA > 8-Bit Adapter and was wondering if anyone here perhaps had a manual for > either the card and/or the drive itself ? > > For your information, this drive is 5,25" in format and takes normal > cassettes, thought it was a pretty nice find. Wow! Neat! Peace... Sridhar From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Sep 11 19:18:07 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 19:18:07 -0500 Subject: New Toy Message Resend Message-ID: <017601c5b72f$74729760$61406b43@66067007> The following messages does not seem to get through. "First part of October I will be getting a custom build prom-programmer with software that programs and reads 2716's. And two Tektronix tube scopes, one from 1954 and one from 1960. Also a prototype Commodore 64." From allain at panix.com Sun Sep 11 19:26:43 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 20:26:43 -0400 Subject: Way OT: PC Setup/Restore CD's References: Message-ID: <004c01c5b730$a7597c60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> I'm looking to restore a few name brand PCs to the best donateable state. I haven't figured out how to distill & clone just the drivers from the used drive into a fresh OS load, so I'm left looking for several mfgr restore CDs. If anybody keeps these, send me a note (1996-2001: typically w98) offline responses might be best. John A. From cannings at earthlink.net Sun Sep 11 19:50:27 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 17:50:27 -0700 Subject: Mass Memory Unit from Space Shuttle References: <3.0.6.16.20050903155922.32d7abbe@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><431A5E60.ED0E7F00@guntersville.net> <003801c5b259$519bddd0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <000f01c5b733$f8021bb0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Joe, I tried to send you an Email ( offline ) from the address on your webpage. No go. I was trying to spare the rest of the list our ramblings in-so-far as to the possible purchase of an MMU or two. Please feel free to contact me offline concerning same. Best regards, Steven Joe, I'm taking a stab at this being your correct Email address ( from your homepage ). You do indeed have the Mass Memory Unit as described below ( in a post that hasn't " posted " yet ). Where abouts in the country are you located ( I'm in Southern California very near Anaheim ). The reason I'm asking is if possible I would drive some ( reasonable ) distance to obtain an MMU or two. I would think shipping might be costly ( or not ... ) ? Have you thought about a price for these guys ( my first-born is spoken for unfortunately ) ? Believe it or not, new these sold for about $250 K as I recall. I'm not trying to cheat the system here, just getting impatient with the slow postings... Please advise ... Best regards, Steven Canning ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Canning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 1:35 PM Subject: Re: Mass Memory Unit from Space Shuttle > John is correct about the 5 Volt logic control signals. The prime power is > +28 VDC spacecraft power. They have in-rush current limiters on the prime > power input and will run down to + 24 VDC and up to +32 VDC ( there is a > pre-regulator up front ). These are linear scan units ( not helical scan > like a VCR ). Sounds like you have the MMU ( Mass Memory Unit, the smaller > one ) and not the STR ( Standard Tape Recorder, the big guy ). These units > ( MMU ) were digital only, and were used to download programs to the five > general purpose IBM computers ( configured like IBM 360s ). Part of this > function was to drive the " glass " dashboard ( CRTs) that provided info on > engines, etc. There was not enough room for all the standard instruments on > the " dash " that would have been required. So you could pull-up " virtual > instruments " like they have on the Toyota Prius dashboard. The two tape > reels were not driven, but maintained tape tension through differential > gears connected to a " gyrator " spring that provided relatively constant > torque between the two counter rotating reels. The tape was " pulled " > through a proprietary delta drive capstan system which incorporated the read > / write heads. Remember this thing has to survive the G-force of liftoff and > run in a micro-gravity environment. > > Best regards, Steven Canning > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John C. Ellingboe" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 7:39 PM > Subject: Re: Mass Memory Unit from Space Shuttle > > > > "Joe R." wrote: > > > > > > I found a pile of these things this morning. They are made by > Odetics > > > in Anaheim Ca. After I got home with them I realized that they are for > the > > > space shuttle. Does anyone know anything about them? I THINK they use a > > > tape drive inside. I haven't opened one up yet but I saw the remains of > a > > > tape drive at the same place and I think it was the guts out of one of > these. > > > > > > Joe > > > > I'm not sure about how many the shuttle used but there is one on > > each solid rocket booster. The had two tape reels stacked on > > top of each other. The control signals are 5V logic and power > > is probably 24V DC. I try to locate a contact to get some data > > in them. > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 11 20:17:24 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 19:17:24 -0600 Subject: New Toy Message Resend In-Reply-To: <017601c5b72f$74729760$61406b43@66067007> References: <017601c5b72f$74729760$61406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <4324D724.3040706@jetnet.ab.ca> Keys wrote: > The following messages does not seem to get through. > "First part of October I will be getting a custom build prom-programmer > with > software that programs and reads 2716's. And two Tektronix tube scopes, > one > from 1954 and one from 1960. Also a prototype Commodore 64." Does the 1954 scope pre-date the list here? Wait you need vintage test equipment too! -------------------------- Smiley not included . Add $.25 for shipping and handling. PS. Check if you got a power supply that supplies the prom programmer for the programing voltage if it is not built in. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Sep 11 21:35:32 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 21:35:32 -0500 Subject: New Toy Message Resend In-Reply-To: <017601c5b72f$74729760$61406b43@66067007> References: <017601c5b72f$74729760$61406b43@66067007> Message-ID: On 9/11/05, Keys wrote: > The following messages does not seem to get through. > "First part of October I will be getting a custom build prom-programmer with > software that programs and reads 2716's. And two Tektronix tube scopes, one > from 1954 and one from 1960. Also a prototype Commodore 64." I would love to see photos of the prototype C-64. I have an early one, but seeing pre-production hardware would be cool. For those that might not remember earlier tales, my first job ever was programming the WordVision demo for Bruce and James Publishers on a pre-public-release development machine from Commodore. My prior PET experience got me the job. -ethan From bqt at Update.UU.SE Mon Sep 12 03:34:04 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:34:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VMS Question... In-Reply-To: <200509101700.j8AH03MY006560@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509101700.j8AH03MY006560@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: > VAX6000 systems are probably the ultimate in over-engineering for > reliability and although they've got a lot fewer boards than a 11/780 > they still have some BI-bus contact reliability issues despite a > much slicker edge connector and less age. You haven't worked on the 86x0 systems, I can hear... The 6000 series are a joke in comparision. The 86x0 systems are designed to continue to work even when chips actually don't work. Those faults are logged, alternate signal paths are activated, and the board should be scheduled for replacement at the next normal PM. So yes, there are double sets of registers, paths, and whatnots, so that most faults actually don't stop the machine from running. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sun Sep 11 17:18:59 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 23:18:59 +0100 Subject: mouse nipples References: <4321F165.8050102@yahoo.co.uk><042201c5b594$b108ac10$019b9b9b@amscomputer> Message-ID: <000001c5b77b$92052bc0$0200a8c0@geoff> Tried Allbatteries Phil ? not cheap but they seem to have most cells. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 1:11 AM Subject: Re: mouse nipples > In message <042201c5b594$b108ac10$019b9b9b at amscomputer> > "Andrew Strouse" wrote: > > > My old 701C used to do that all the time even when it was brand new, so I > > don't think it is a dirt issue. I found that if I left my finger on it to > > long with out moving it would start moving. I usually just pushed the > > ''nipple' hard opposite the way the coursor was moving and it would stop. > > I've got a Toshiba T2130CS here that does the same thing. My mum's got a > Compaq Evo N600C (weird thing - has a TrackPad and the Accupoint > "tit-mouse") that does it too. > > I think it's some form of auto-calibration system, though it seems to screw > up a lot more than I'd like. Thankfully Trackpads aren't anywhere near as bad > (IMO). Not as good as a mouse, but good enough for computing on the go. > > Seeing as we're on the subject of laptops, does anyone have any Panasonic > CF-VZS251 (I think that's the right part number...) batteries lying around? > I've got a CF-25 Toughbook here that seems to have a duff battery (I'm > getting about an hour out of it - it's a very old Li-ion). Either the Li-ion > or NiMH version would be fine (though I suspect it'll be easier to get > high-capacity NiMH cells than bodge some 18650 LiIons to fit). > > Later. > -- > Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT > philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook > ... RAM = Rarely Adequate Memory > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/91 - Release Date: 06/09/05 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.21/96 - Release Date: 10/09/05 From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Mon Sep 12 04:45:34 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 11:45:34 +0200 Subject: is it just me ? :-) In-Reply-To: References: <43225091.8060309@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <43256A5E.31997.7BBDC0E2@localhost> Am 10 Sep 2005 5:46 meinte Vintage Computer Festival: > On Fri, 9 Sep 2005, James Rice wrote: > > > I don't post much. I'm totally not into big iron and don't like to get > > involved in the pissing contests that seem to erupt on the list. But > > I'm still here lurking. > > I don't know what you're talking about. This is afterall a pissing > contest mailing list with a side interest in vintage computers. > > Kind of in the same vein of going to a fight and seeing a hockey game > break out ;) THere are no hockey games at fights ... and no fights at hockey games... it's (usualy) all witrhin the rules :) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Mon Sep 12 08:26:05 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:26:05 +0200 Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: <20050902182507.4d84d012.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43180204.AE0E61BC@cs.ubc.ca> <20050902182507.4d84d012.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1126531565.21094.6.camel@fortran> On Fri, 2005-09-02 at 18:25 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > I wouldn't call vacuum column drives an icon of EARLY > computers... I quote "IBM's Early Computers", by Bashe, Johnson, Palmer, and Pugh, an excellent book well worth reading: "...the Type 726 tape units used in the 701 computer system, produced in 1953. They operated at 75 ips, with a tape-recording density of 100bpi." http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/701/701_1415bx26.html and as this picture shows, it was vacuum-column. I believe the UNISERVO tape drive on the UNIVAC didn't use vac cols, but then again... the tapes were metal. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Sep 12 09:17:50 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 10:17:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anybody live in Chile? In-Reply-To: <1126531565.21094.6.camel@fortran> References: <43180204.AE0E61BC@cs.ubc.ca> <20050902182507.4d84d012.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1126531565.21094.6.camel@fortran> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, Tore S Bekkedal wrote: > "...the Type 726 tape units used in the 701 computer system, produced in > 1953. They operated at 75 ips, with a tape-recording density of 100bpi." > > http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/701/701_1415bx26.html > > and as this picture shows, it was vacuum-column. The SAGE system (AN/FSQ-7) used the same IBM type 727 tape drives as used in the IBM 650: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/650.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 12 10:24:51 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 08:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Toy Message Resend In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Sep 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/11/05, Keys wrote: > > The following messages does not seem to get through. > > "First part of October I will be getting a custom build prom-programmer with > > software that programs and reads 2716's. And two Tektronix tube scopes, one > > from 1954 and one from 1960. Also a prototype Commodore 64." > > I would love to see photos of the prototype C-64. I have an early > one, but seeing pre-production hardware would be cool. Here's one we tried auctioning a couple years back: http://www.vintage.org/special/2003/c64prototype/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 12 10:38:38 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 11:38:38 -0400 Subject: New Toy Message Resend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/12/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Here's one we tried auctioning a couple years back: > > http://www.vintage.org/special/2003/c64prototype/ Thanks! -ethan From peterbrown10 at hotmail.com Mon Sep 12 11:05:03 2005 From: peterbrown10 at hotmail.com (Peter Brown) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:05:03 +0000 Subject: Country conversion for HP 791x drives Message-ID: Hi All, I'm trying to convert a couple of USA spec. HP 7914 hard drives to UK spec. This involves not only changing the input tappings from 110 Volts to 240 volts but also changing the main drive pulley and drive belt to compensate for 60 Hz / 50 Hz mains frequency difference. Machining up a revised (larger) pulley isn't a problem but finding the drive belt is proving difficult. Is there anyone on list that has the necessary parts (perhaps a scrapped drive in the UK)? I think that the parts are common for the 7911, 7912 and 7914 drives - the HP part number for the belt and pulley are - 07912-20013 (pulley) and 07912-40018 (drive belt). Does anyone have experience of these drives? The pair that I have are quite grubby on the outside, have probably been knocked about a bit in transit but have had the spindles locked and the head leaver in the 'locked' position - is it likely that they will still work? Peter Brown From hp41cx at gmail.com Wed Sep 7 11:35:43 2005 From: hp41cx at gmail.com (hp41cx) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 13:35:43 -0300 Subject: Sharp PC1600 References: <3.0.6.16.20050907090547.0f173cca@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <018801c5b3cc$e3c1db00$679bafc8@Servidor> I need manual in PDF for Sharp PC-1600 From ni1d at arrl.net Wed Sep 7 12:03:36 2005 From: ni1d at arrl.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 13:03:36 -0400 Subject: OT: 6.8Ghz Quantum-Optical Notebook References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545D10@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <17183.7528.193632.26814@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ram" == Ram Meenakshisundaram writes: Ram> Don't know if this is a hoax, but they reportedly produced the Ram> 1st 6.8GHz Quatum-Optical Notebook running Windows XP: Ram> http://atomchip.com/_wsn/page4.html Looks like one. Check out page3.html at that site -- the pictures are pretty hilarious. And "nanomicrons"? The curious one is the link to an upcoming trade show where they are claiming to be exhibiting. And the patent mentioned is real, which doesn't necessarily mean what it describes is real. paul From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Wed Sep 7 22:52:51 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 23:52:51 -0400 Subject: Various Macs for Sale In-Reply-To: References: <431FA38F.6090607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6.2.5.1.2.20050907235048.033f7108@boff-net.dhs.org> I may sound like a dick for saying such, but if the OS is missing and price is an issue, there's always Linux and several other OS'es that work fine on Apple products. Just a logical and semi-obvious thought. -John Boffemmyer IV PS: I always hated OS9 after it corrupted itself on my ex's mac and I had to spend a week reloading the damned thing. At 11:35 PM 9/7/2005, you wrote: >On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, woodelf wrote: > > > The problem with $10 mac's is $0 software. With a old PC you could > > steal DOS and BASIC from good old Gates. :) They still may be usefull > > for parts like CRT's and 68000's for the really old mac's. > >Most of these (at least the ones with hard drives) probably have a full OS >and apps already installed on them. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/91 - Release Date: 9/6/2005 > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/91 - Release Date: 9/6/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/91 - Release Date: 9/6/2005 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 7 22:54:13 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 20:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: translucent skins (prototypes) for SGI Indigo 2 on ebay Message-ID: <20050908035413.84573.qmail@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> item #5238755361. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 7 23:02:12 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC *Rainbow* stuph Message-ID: <20050908040212.48090.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> I recently obtained a Rainbow 100 with a gaggle of disks. The person had told me there was a complete or nearly so set of DECUS disks included. None of them imaged w/o errors, so I just became disgusted and gave up. Now we know of all the semi-compatible peecees, the Rainbow is probably the easiest to find software for. So where is the archive that has the DECUS stuph? And there is a set of DECUS newsletters on Ebay at this very moment. ______________________________________________________ Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ From h.otten at chello.nl Thu Sep 8 12:34:04 2005 From: h.otten at chello.nl (Hans Otten) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 19:34:04 +0200 Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? Message-ID: <002501c5b49b$81ed99d0$0a01a8c0@aldipress.nl> Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 22:27:16 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain > > > Does anyone have a datasheet for an 82S21? I checked all the obvious > places but can't find one. > > 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM I have the datasheet, 3 pages, in the Signetics Data book. Let me know if you want a scan. Hans From trag at io.com Thu Sep 8 22:11:10 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 22:11:10 -0500 Subject: 64 pin SIMM (Mac IIFX) Specs? In-Reply-To: <200509081700.j88H0MBH083520@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509081700.j88H0MBH083520@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 18:37:39 +0100 (BST) >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >> If the DIN and DOUT are common on the MB >My guess is that if they are linked, they will be linked by short tracks >near the SIMM sockets. And you'd be linking them with short tracks on the >SIMM PCBs. Considering that a light-nanosecond (in free space) is about 1 >foot, and that the velocity factor of a PCB is going to be around 0.6, I >would guess about 8" of length difference would give 1ns of timing skew. >I don't know how fast that amachine runs, but I would think you'd have to >have a right stupid layout for using both pins to matter much. Well, darn it, they aren't linked. It turns out that the memory controller on the IIfx buffers the writes, so that the CPU can go do something else after only 2 cycles instead of 6, unless, of course, the next operation is a memory access. So the the data lines from the SIMMs are routed to 74F573 D-type latches. It appears that the SIMM's DIN comes from the latches' outputs and DOUT goes to the latches' inputs. I have not confirmed it yet (must pull the PGA 68030 to get access to the data lines) but I suspect that the bidirectional databus goes to the input lines of the latches. So, on a read, the data would just come out of the memory straight to the bidirectional data bus. On a write the data bus would take data to the latches' inputs where it would be buffered, and the memory controller presumably has control of the LE (latch enable) and OE (output enable) lines to the latches. So, if I tied DIN and DOUT together, it looks like there are at least two potential trouble spots. 1) If the memory controller does not switch the latches to High-Z (OE inactive) upon completion of Writes, then on a Read, the data from the memory would be in contention with the data still held by the latches from the previous write. 2) While the memory controller is buffering a Write, that data would feed back from the latches, along the tied together In and Out to the bidirectional data bus. So, for example, the CPU signals a Write. The memory controller takes over, and the data is buffered and held in the latches. The CPU is done in 2 cycles, but the MC will need 6 cycles total to complete the write. Now the CPU goes off to do something like an IO operation during which it will also need the data bus. However, because the In and Out pins are tied together, the bidirectional portion of the data bus is being fed the data from the previous Write operation for four more cycles while the memory controller completes the write operation. This will interfere with any other use of the data bus. So unless the data bus to the memory is seperate from the data bus to the rest of the computer, I believe that tieing the In and Out pins together will screw things up. Does my reasoning seem sound? What did I miss? Was that clear? Jeff Walther From trag at io.com Thu Sep 8 23:40:30 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 23:40:30 -0500 Subject: 64 pin SIMM (Mac IIFX) Specs? Message-ID: >> If the DIN and DOUT are common on the MB >Well, darn it, they aren't linked. It turns out that the memory >controller on the > IIfx buffers the writes, so that the CPU can go do something else >after only 2 > cycles instead of 6, unless, of course, the next operation is a >memory access. > So the the data lines from the SIMMs are routed to 74F573 D-type latches. It > appears that the SIMM's DIN comes from the latches' outputs and DOUT goes > to the latches' inputs. Okay, what if I put a pair of octal tristate buffers on the SIMM and control them with the Write Enable line such that data can go from DIN to the DRAM chips' data pins when WE is active, and data can go from the chips' data pins to DOUT when WE is inactive? Something like the SN74ABT541 looks like it might do the trick: I see two potential problems. First, the buffer will introduce about 4 ns (max) of delay between WE changing and data flowing, so timing might be dicey. Second, the timing will be even tighter, if the computer tries to do a Read Modify Write to memory. So one important question is whether the IIfx makes use of the Read Modify Write function of DRAM. Checking some old datasheets, it appears that that feature was present in old DRAM chips. Did computers typically make use of it? The tristate buffers are only about $.50 each, so they don't add much to the cost, but they might blow the timing. Jeff Walther From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Sep 9 04:30:32 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:30:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Heathkit ET-3400 red filter material? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15107.195.212.29.75.1126258232.squirrel@www.gjcp.net> > As I restore this ET-3400, I am curious if anyone knows what kind of > filter material Heathkit provided that sticks to the TIL312 7-segment > displays? Mine have 4 of 6 displays covered, and 2 displays bare. It > seems to be some sort of adhesive red tape or film, but I have no idea > what to use for a modern substitute. > > Thanks for any tips. Take it to your friendly neighbourhood theatre geek, who will be able to supply you with gel swatch books. You can probably find a bit of scrap red gel that's close enough. Gordon. From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Fri Sep 9 09:00:05 2005 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:00:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Mac Demo Disk? In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Sep 06, 2005 05:33:52 PM Message-ID: <200509091400.j89E06Vm008168@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Anyone have any Mac demo disks for older Mac's (512, SE30) or know of an online disk image of one? Looking for one to run for display purposes. Marty From gcarrick at cse.uta.edu Fri Sep 9 10:07:47 2005 From: gcarrick at cse.uta.edu (A. G. Carrick) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:07:47 -0500 Subject: Cray board Message-ID: <200509091517.j89FHvgB095120@keith.ezwind.net> Do you have any information about the authenticity of this item on eBay? 5238346510 Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Fri Sep 9 22:22:54 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 23:22:54 -0400 Subject: is it just me ? :-) In-Reply-To: <007601c5b5b4$ab021bb0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200509100300.j8A30tdc002983@keith.ezwind.net> <007601c5b5b4$ab021bb0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <6.2.5.1.2.20050909232005.033e7a30@boff-net.dhs.org> Hey now, it isn't lurking if you have nothing positive to add to a topic or the topic has little to nothing to do with you. Now, those IBM clit's/tit mice, that is another story. Even I, the self proclaimed ignorant bastard of the group, have dealt with them and servicing them (swapping them out, cleaning them, calibration, etc). If memory serves correctly, they are also on-topic as they are not all that common as one would think (damned touchpads) and meet the age rules. -John Boffemmyer IV At 11:06 PM 9/9/2005, you wrote: >Evan wrote... >>Active, maybe, but more like 1,000 overall. >Higher. > >>When I did my age survey, there were 86 replies. Should we guess : just over >>100 active members ? >Probably about right. But it's hard to count. I notice there are a >ton of people who lurk. Rarely or never posting. But when something >goes wrong with the list I get emails from them quickly. Hence, I >know they're there :> So it depends. If by active you mean >"conversation and posting", about 100 is probably right. If by >active you mean people who regularly read the list, the number is >many times that. > >Jay > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/93 - Release Date: 9/8/2005 > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/93 - Release Date: 9/8/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/93 - Release Date: 9/8/2005 From phoenix at nidhog.net Sun Sep 11 05:13:24 2005 From: phoenix at nidhog.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 06:13:24 -0400 Subject: SWPC Digi-Vista Nixie Clock In-Reply-To: <43239A65.2070601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Michael Holley wrote: > > I finished my Nixie tube clock. (My first try at this was around 1971.) > > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/PopularElectronics/Dec1970/PE_Dec1970.htm > > > > I could not figure out how to wire the tens of hours module to > the hours > > module. The magazine article was very vague and even misleading > about that. > > So one night I sent an email to Gary Kay, the designer, and the next > > morning I had a response. How is that for tech support 35 years after > > the fact? And woodelf replied: > Grumble Grumble Grumble ... Gripe Gripe Gripe. > I would have updated the high voltage power supply to a simple > transistor regulator. I have about 128 AC around here and that > can really give over voltage on 115 V transformers. > PS. Where do you find a 300 V transformer ... I may build one > some day. Also any options for a ALARM feature? Say a analog > bird chipring sound? > > > Gary Kay later designed many of the SWTPC 6800 computer systems. > > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/History/Gary_Kay.htm > > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/BYTE/BYTE.HTM > I keep drooling over SWTPC products... I wish that made it big > rather than PC's. > > Michael Holley Grumble Grumble Grumble ... Gripe Gripe Gripe. WTF? Michael has put a lot of time and effort into documenting the history, people and products of SWTPC. Gary Kay was a brilliant SWTPC engineer and the fact that he recently corresponded with MH and facilitated MH's successful construction of the digital clock, IMHO, was the point of the post. If you read the PE article you would have seen that an alarm feature and means of implementation was described. > I would have updated the high voltage power supply to a simple > transistor regulator. I have about 128 AC around here and that > can really give over voltage on 115 V transformers. Again, WTF? The recreation is as close to the original design as possible. Transistor regulator? I'm sure the nixies can handle any 128 VAC generated "over voltage" condition that may be inherent in the original design. BTW, is that 128 VAC your actual _RMS_ AC voltage? d8^) > PS. Where do you find a 300 V transformer ... I may build one > some day. P.S. You'll build a 300 V transformer someday? d8^), again. Bill From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Mon Sep 12 14:06:08 2005 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:06:08 -0400 Subject: Looking for IBM PC/XT/AT technical references Message-ID: Hello all, My latest "refocusing" of the collection is on IBM PC hardware (PC/XT/AT, original IBM cards, peripherals, etc.) and on software IBM sold for the PC line. In line with this, I'm also very interested in any technical manuals IBM produced. So far my meager technical manual collection is: 1. Guide to operations (PC, XT, AT) 2. Technical Reference (XT, AT) 3. Hardware Maintenance and Service (XT, AT) All of the above are originals, and the AT Maintenance set includes diagnostics from 1.01 to 1.05 along with loopback testers, and what looks like a 10-BASE2 terminator (or maybe Arcnet??). I'd like to get: 1. Technical Reference (PC) 2. Hardware Maintenance and Service (PC) Original, copies, or scans will do ... Also, I'm wondering what other technical manuals exist. I know there is an "options and adapters" series, but what else is there? Oh, and if anyone is junking a PC-1 (black power supply, 16-64KB motherboard), I'll take it :-) Thanks for pointers, Rich B. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Sep 12 15:18:05 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:18:05 Subject: Looking for IBM PC/XT/AT technical references In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050912151805.0fe77702@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:06 PM 9/12/05 -0400, you wrote: >Hello all, > >My latest "refocusing" of the collection is on IBM PC hardware >(PC/XT/AT, original IBM cards, peripherals, etc.) and on software IBM >sold for the PC line. In line with this, I'm also very interested in >any technical manuals IBM produced. > >So far my meager technical manual collection is: > >1. Guide to operations (PC, XT, AT) >2. Technical Reference (XT, AT) >3. Hardware Maintenance and Service (XT, AT) > >All of the above are originals, and the AT Maintenance set includes >diagnostics from 1.01 to 1.05 along with loopback testers, and what >looks like a 10-BASE2 terminator (or maybe Arcnet??). > >I'd like to get: > >1. Technical Reference (PC) >2. Hardware Maintenance and Service (PC) > >Original, copies, or scans will do ... > >Also, I'm wondering what other technical manuals exist. I know there >is an "options and adapters" series, but what else is there? FYI I have one new package here and it's binder is marked "IBM Personal System/2 Hardware Maintenance Service". It includes two plastic sealed packs of pages ~1/4" thick. One has the same name but it's number is 80x0880. The 2nd pack isn't titled but the top page is titled "Hard Tab Installation". It's number is 80x0882. There's also a 3.5" disk in the binder that's titled IBM Personal System/2 Model 50/60 Reference Diskette. PN 15F1045. The binder is marked 68X2222 and S68X-2222-00. I have others but they're all packed away. > >Oh, and if anyone is junking a PC-1 (black power supply, 16-64KB >motherboard), I'll take it :-) Those are getting VERY hard to find around here. I picked up a nice one about 3 years ago and found a beat up one about a year ago (rescued for parts) but those are the only ones that I've seen in about 4 or 5 years. However I did find three IBM marked FH Tandon TM-100 5 1/4" disk drives last week :-) Joe > >Thanks for pointers, >Rich B. > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 12 14:31:08 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 13:31:08 -0600 Subject: Various Macs for Sale In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.1.2.20050907235048.033f7108@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <431FA38F.6090607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6.2.5.1.2.20050907235048.033f7108@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <4325D77C.5080302@jetnet.ab.ca> John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > I may sound like a dick for saying such, but if the OS is missing and > price is an issue, there's always Linux and several other OS'es that > work fine on Apple products. Just a logical and semi-obvious thought. > -John Boffemmyer IV > > PS: I always hated OS9 after it corrupted itself on my ex's mac and I > had to spend a week reloading the damned thing. So this is a windows feature too! I favor OS/9 for the 6809 a very nice OS and on topic too. :) I think most OS's lost it since all computers have gone graphic rather than text. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Sep 12 14:11:20 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:11:20 +0100 Subject: Mac Demo Disk? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 09 Sep 2005 09:00:05 CDT." <200509091400.j89E06Vm008168@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <200509121911.UAA06756@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Martin Scott Goldberg said: > Anyone have any Mac demo disks for older Mac's (512, SE30) or know of an > online disk image of one? > http://www.jagshouse.com/ http://ccadams.org/se/ assuming they still work. > Looking for one to run for display purposes. Display?? I _use_ my SE... as a terminal to the SparcStation and for packet radio. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 12 16:52:29 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 22:52:29 +0100 Subject: is it just me ? :-) In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.1.2.20050909232005.033e7a30@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <200509100300.j8A30tdc002983@keith.ezwind.net> <007601c5b5b4$ab021bb0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.2.5.1.2.20050909232005.033e7a30@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <4325F89D.8020304@yahoo.co.uk> John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Now, those IBM clit's/tit mice, that is another story. Even I, the self > proclaimed ignorant bastard of the group, have dealt with them and > servicing them (swapping them out, cleaning them, calibration, etc). If > memory serves correctly, they are also on-topic as they are not all that > common as one would think (damned touchpads) and meet the age rules. I *think* I've got it sorted out now. Some kind soul suggested that there wasn't access from the underside of the keyboard, so I've saved myself a job there (and probably a wrecked laptop; I hate taking the darn things apart ;) For reference, Thinkpad keytops *do* come off. Just be gentle and apply a rocking motion whilst lifting them off so nothing gets damaged. I removed the G, H and B keys around the mouse nipple, then cleaned in there as best I could with a toothbrush. So far, no problems since - so maybe a hair or dust had got in there and was upsetting the mechanism somehow. I'm glad it's fixed - aiming somewhere around where I wanted to click and letting the cursor drift before attempting to smack the mouse button at the appropriate point was getting really irritating! cheers Jules From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Sep 12 17:41:19 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 23:41:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: is it just me ? :-) In-Reply-To: <4325F89D.8020304@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200509100300.j8A30tdc002983@keith.ezwind.net> <007601c5b5b4$ab021bb0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.2.5.1.2.20050909232005.033e7a30@boff-net.dhs.org> <4325F89D.8020304@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <50113.82.152.112.73.1126564879.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Jules: > I'm glad it's fixed - aiming somewhere around where I wanted to click > and letting the cursor drift before attempting to smack the mouse button > at the appropriate point was getting really irritating! It does wonders for your hand/eye coordintation :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Sep 12 18:22:29 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:22:29 -0500 Subject: Looking for IBM PC/XT/AT technical references In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050912182229.08132575.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:06:08 -0400 Richard Beaudry wrote: > Hello all, > > My latest "refocusing" of the collection is on IBM PC hardware > (PC/XT/AT, original IBM cards, peripherals, etc.) and on software IBM > sold for the PC line. In line with this, I'm also very interested in > any technical manuals IBM produced. > > So far my meager technical manual collection is: > > 1. Guide to operations (PC, XT, AT) > 2. Technical Reference (XT, AT) > 3. Hardware Maintenance and Service (XT, AT) > > All of the above are originals, and the AT Maintenance set includes > diagnostics from 1.01 to 1.05 along with loopback testers, and what > looks like a 10-BASE2 terminator (or maybe Arcnet??). > > I'd like to get: > > 1. Technical Reference (PC) > 2. Hardware Maintenance and Service (PC) > > Original, copies, or scans will do ... > > Also, I'm wondering what other technical manuals exist. I know there > is an "options and adapters" series, but what else is there? > There is the 'IBM Industrial Computer' technical reference manual set. It's in an 8-1/2" x 11" looseleaf binder. The Industrial Computer was essentially a PC-XT in a rackmount industrial case. So the techref details include schematics of all the standard XT components. There was a pile of Industrial PC techref sets at a surplus store I used to visit in the late 80's, that is where I got mine. I guarantee they aren't there any longer. Also, the early Compaq manuals are worth gathering up. I have the Compaq Deskpro 386 manual, which is of historical significance because the Compaq 386 came out before IBM made a 386 machine (people more expert than me can correct me on this if I am wrong) I have the IBM PC-1 era Technical Reference Manual, which my father ordered when he bought 'the whole package' of the IBM PC and pretty much everything for it at the launch of the PC-1, at the IBM Employee's discount. Sadly, there was an era in the past where I got involved in a strong conflict with a landlord over all my 'junk' when I ceased to own the whole PC-1 itself. One of my bigger regrets with regard to collected hardware is that I no longer have that machine. Now I have far less worthy machines all over this (owned, not rented) house taking up much more space than that system. > Oh, and if anyone is junking a PC-1 (black power supply, 16-64KB > motherboard), I'll take it :-) *sigh* From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Sep 12 18:26:55 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:26:55 -0500 Subject: Various Macs for Sale In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.1.2.20050907235048.033f7108@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <431FA38F.6090607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6.2.5.1.2.20050907235048.033f7108@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <20050912182655.55945950.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 07 Sep 2005 23:52:51 -0400 John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > I may sound like a dick for saying such, but if the OS is missing and > price is an issue, there's always Linux and several other OS'es that > work fine on Apple products. Just a logical and semi-obvious thought. > -John Boffemmyer IV > NetBSD runs marvelously on old Apple hardware. I have it installed on one of my SE/30's, which is the oldest Apple hardware I have run it on. The little one-bit display is a bit limited for X11 but with the Tab Window Manager it's actually somewhat usable. The SE/30 is also nice because you can put a lot more memory in it than any other 'classic' Mac. 32 megs is trivial, and if you chase down 30 pin 16M SIMMs you can put 128 Megs in an SE/30. > PS: I always hated OS9 after it corrupted itself on my ex's mac and I > had to spend a week reloading the damned thing. > > At 11:35 PM 9/7/2005, you wrote: > > >On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, woodelf wrote: > > > > > The problem with $10 mac's is $0 software. With a old PC you could > > > steal DOS and BASIC from good old Gates. :) They still may be > > > usefull for parts like CRT's and 68000's for the really old mac's. > > > >Most of these (at least the ones with hard drives) probably have a > >full OS and apps already installed on them. > > > >-- > > > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > >Festival------------------------------------------------------------ > >------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > http://www.vintage.org > > > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > >Computers ][ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > >http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > > > >-- > >No virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/91 - Release Date: > >9/6/2005 > > > > > > > > > >-- > >No virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/91 - Release Date: > >9/6/2005 > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/91 - Release Date: > 9/6/2005 > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 12 18:47:07 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:47:07 -0500 Subject: Various Macs for Sale In-Reply-To: <20050912182655.55945950.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <431FA38F.6090607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6.2.5.1.2.20050907235048.033f7108@boff-net.dhs.org> <20050912182655.55945950.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 9/12/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > The SE/30 is also nice > because you can put a lot more memory in it than any other 'classic' > Mac. 32 megs is trivial, and if you chase down 30 pin 16M SIMMs you can > put 128 Megs in an SE/30. I've had an SE/30 for about 10 years (it was the first Mac I've owned with a SuperDrive), but I've never been able to lay my hands on any 30 pin 16MB SIMMs... they are rarer than 72 pin 36-bit 32MB SIMMs for sun4m machines (SPARCclassic, LX) - _those_ I've been able to track down to max out an LX or two. At least one doesn't _need_ 128MB on a 68K Mac running MacOS, unless you are doing a lot of Photoshop work - then, I'd recommend a newer machine anyway, one with color, like a Mac IIci w/cache card. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 12 17:48:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 23:48:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: 64 pin SIMM (Mac IIFX) Specs? In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Walther" at Sep 8, 5 10:11:10 pm Message-ID: [DIm and DOut] > Well, darn it, they aren't linked. It turns out that the memory Argh! > controller on the IIfx buffers the writes, so that the CPU can go do > something else after only 2 cycles instead of 6, unless, of course, > the next operation is a memory access. > > So the the data lines from the SIMMs are routed to 74F573 D-type > latches. It appears that the SIMM's DIN comes from the latches' > outputs and DOUT goes to the latches' inputs. I have not confirmed > it yet (must pull the PGA 68030 to get access to the data lines) but > I suspect that the bidirectional databus goes to the input lines of > the latches. I would think so. Maybe with more buffers ('F245?) or even an ASIC in between, but I doubt the latter. > > So, on a read, the data would just come out of the memory straight to > the bidirectional data bus. On a write the data bus would take data > to the latches' inputs where it would be buffered, and the memory > controller presumably has control of the LE (latch enable) and OE > (output enable) lines to the latches. If the only thing that drives those DIn lines are the 'F573s, then there would be no need to ever tri-state the outputs. In which case you may well find that OE/ is tied to ground. > > So, if I tied DIN and DOUT together, it looks like there are at least > two potential trouble spots. > > 1) If the memory controller does not switch the latches to High-Z > (OE inactive) upon completion of Writes, then on a Read, the data > from the memory would be in contention with the data still held by > the latches from the previous write. Yep. > > 2) While the memory controller is buffering a Write, that data would > feed back from the latches, along the tied together In and Out to the > bidirectional data bus. The outputs of those latches would then be contending with every other device on the bus. I think it's unlikely those latches are ever tri-stated in normal operation unless some other device can drive the DIn of the RAMs -- and what would that device be? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 12 18:12:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 00:12:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for IBM PC/XT/AT technical references In-Reply-To: from "Richard Beaudry" at Sep 12, 5 03:06:08 pm Message-ID: > > Hello all, > > My latest "refocusing" of the collection is on IBM PC hardware > (PC/XT/AT, original IBM cards, peripherals, etc.) and on software IBM > sold for the PC line. In line with this, I'm also very interested in > any technical manuals IBM produced. > > So far my meager technical manual collection is: > > 1. Guide to operations (PC, XT, AT) > 2. Technical Reference (XT, AT) > 3. Hardware Maintenance and Service (XT, AT) > > All of the above are originals, and the AT Maintenance set includes > diagnostics from 1.01 to 1.05 along with loopback testers, and what > looks like a 10-BASE2 terminator (or maybe Arcnet??). > > I'd like to get: > > 1. Technical Reference (PC) > 2. Hardware Maintenance and Service (PC) > > Original, copies, or scans will do ... > > Also, I'm wondering what other technical manuals exist. I know there > is an "options and adapters" series, but what else is there? Ones that I know exist (these are not the official titles, I can get those if you need them): PC TechReF PC/XT and Portable TechRef PC/AT TechRef All those existed in at least 2 version : Early ones had information on the expansion cards, later ones only had information on the motherboard, PSU, keyboard. The expansion card info got moved to the Options and Adapters TechRefs Early PC/AT TechRefs cover the 6MHz system only using those 128K 'piggyback' RRAMs (2 64 K bit chips with strange pinouts soldered together), later ones also cover the later mainboard using 256K DRAMs, and the 8MHz clock version PC/jr TechRef. I've never seen this without the peripheral information included. Options and Adapters TechRef. The 'base version' of this is 2 binders. It contains info on the 8-bit I/O stuff only -- the expansion unit, expansion cards, monitors, drives, printers, etc. There's a suplement for the AT expansion cards (combined serial/parallel card, combined floppy/hard disk controller, 16 bit memory expansion cards, etc) There are many more suplements for later add-ons. One particuarly complete one is the EGA technical reference. Scientific Options and Adapters TechRef. Covers the Professional Graphics controller, GPIB card, Data Acquisition card. There must have been a TechRef for the XT/286, it's about the only one I am missing. PS/2 Hardware Interface TechRef. This is a pale shadow of the earlier ones. No scehamtics, no BIOS source. But better than nothing. There will have been HMS manuals for all the PC family machines. I can't see the use of them -- the information _I_ need to fix the machine is in the TechRef. -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 12 18:54:03 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 16:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Various Macs for Sale In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Sep 12, 5 06:47:07 pm" Message-ID: <200509122354.QAA13238@floodgap.com> > I've had an SE/30 for about 10 years (it was the first Mac I've owned > with a SuperDrive), but I've never been able to lay my hands on any 30 > pin 16MB SIMMs Eh? I bought eight of them for my IIci from memoryx (www.memoryx.net). I'm sure other places carry them, too. The IIci takes about four minutes to do the startup RAM test now ;) I put the 128MB in it for NetBSD. It runs everything from RAM now, hardly ever touches the hard disk. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: E.T.E.S.: The Extra Terrestrial E-Mail Signature --------------- From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Sep 12 19:07:43 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:07:43 -0400 Subject: is it just me ? :-) In-Reply-To: <4325F89D.8020304@yahoo.co.uk> References: <6.2.5.1.2.20050909232005.033e7a30@boff-net.dhs.org> <200509100300.j8A30tdc002983@keith.ezwind.net> <007601c5b5b4$ab021bb0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.2.5.1.2.20050909232005.033e7a30@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050912192526.04f34b50@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: >I'm glad it's fixed - aiming somewhere around where I wanted to click and >letting the cursor drift before attempting to smack the mouse button at >the appropriate point was getting really irritating! Why, sounds like a good video game to me! ;^> [[ This from a guy who *enjoys* playing "the real spider" on my LinuxFromScratch install on my Fujitsu Lifebook, which sports a catstongue or eraserhead pointing device with 3 mouse buttons. ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Sep 12 20:07:46 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:07:46 -0500 Subject: New Toy Message Resend References: <017601c5b72f$74729760$61406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <009401c5b7ff$8e538970$13406b43@66067007> Will get pic's after it gets here. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 9:35 PM Subject: Re: New Toy Message Resend > On 9/11/05, Keys wrote: >> The following messages does not seem to get through. >> "First part of October I will be getting a custom build prom-programmer >> with >> software that programs and reads 2716's. And two Tektronix tube scopes, >> one >> from 1954 and one from 1960. Also a prototype Commodore 64." > > I would love to see photos of the prototype C-64. I have an early > one, but seeing pre-production hardware would be cool. > > For those that might not remember earlier tales, my first job ever was > programming the WordVision demo for Bruce and James Publishers on a > pre-public-release development machine from Commodore. My prior PET > experience got me the job. > > -ethan > > From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Sep 12 20:53:42 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:53:42 -0500 Subject: Various Macs for Sale In-Reply-To: References: <431FA38F.6090607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6.2.5.1.2.20050907235048.033f7108@boff-net.dhs.org> <20050912182655.55945950.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050912205342.0680e78b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:47:07 -0500 Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/12/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > > The SE/30 is also nice > > because you can put a lot more memory in it than any other 'classic' > > Mac. 32 megs is trivial, and if you chase down 30 pin 16M SIMMs you > > can put 128 Megs in an SE/30. > > I've had an SE/30 for about 10 years (it was the first Mac I've owned > with a SuperDrive), but I've never been able to lay my hands on any 30 > pin 16MB SIMMs... they are rarer than 72 pin 36-bit 32MB SIMMs for > sun4m machines (SPARCclassic, LX) - _those_ I've been able to track > down to max out an LX or two. > > At least one doesn't _need_ 128MB on a 68K Mac running MacOS, unless > you are doing a lot of Photoshop work - then, I'd recommend a newer > machine anyway, one with color, like a Mac IIci w/cache card. > Yes, Photoshop on an SE/30 does seem a bit silly, with it's one-bit 'color' graphics capability. Memory upgrades for older hardware is always problematic. I would love to have more memory in my Powerbook 165c, but it's very proprietary. At least if you get old enough, it becomes individual chips. Ironically, it's easier to find the memory to upgrade my Sym 1 than it is to find the memory to upgrade that Powerbook. (So my Sym 1 is 'torqued out' at, I think, the full 8k) From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon Sep 12 21:54:31 2005 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 22:54:31 -0400 Subject: Looking for IBM PC/XT/AT technical references In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050912151805.0fe77702@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050912151805.0fe77702@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43263F67.90708@nktelco.net> Joe R. wrote: >However I did find three IBM marked FH Tandon TM-100 5 1/4" disk drives >last week :-) > > Are those special? I think my TRS-80 Model III has two of them. I scrounged them about 20 years ago... They were double sided after all. > Joe > > -chuck From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Sep 12 22:02:36 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 22:02:36 -0500 Subject: New Toy Message Resend References: <017601c5b72f$74729760$61406b43@66067007> <4324D724.3040706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00d401c5b80f$99c3e6a0$13406b43@66067007> I believe the 1954 unit is a model 534. ----- Original Message ----- From: "woodelf" To: ; "Discussion at cnc.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 8:17 PM Subject: Re: New Toy Message Resend > Keys wrote: >> The following messages does not seem to get through. >> "First part of October I will be getting a custom build prom-programmer >> with >> software that programs and reads 2716's. And two Tektronix tube scopes, >> one >> from 1954 and one from 1960. Also a prototype Commodore 64." > > Does the 1954 scope pre-date the list here? Wait you need > vintage test equipment too! > -------------------------- > Smiley not included . Add $.25 for shipping and handling. > > PS. Check if you got a power supply that supplies the > prom programmer for the programing voltage if it is > not built in. > > From allanh-cctalk at kallisti.com Mon Sep 12 22:36:45 2005 From: allanh-cctalk at kallisti.com (Allan Hessenflow) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 20:36:45 -0700 Subject: SWTPC Digi-Vista Nixie Clock References: <200509130303.j8D33hCP077079@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050912203645.A2021@kallisti.com> woodelf wrote: > I would have updated the high voltage power supply to a simple > transistor regulator. I have about 128 AC around here and that > can really give over voltage on 115 V transformers. > PS. Where do you find a 300 V transformer ... I may build one > some day. If you don't want to scrounge surplus stores, or wind your own, Hammond currently makes a couple that would work. They are the 269BX and 369BX, depending on whether you want "universal" primaries or not. Their high voltage secondaries are 300VCT, and they also have the 6.3V windings. They're a bit larger than necessary, being rated for 2-3 times the power called for in that design. allan -- Allan N. Hessenflow allanh at kallisti.com From gilcarrick at comcast.net Mon Sep 12 23:26:46 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 23:26:46 -0500 Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: <200509081912.j88JCP3s084851@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200509130437.j8D4b0aO092509@keith.ezwind.net> 5242159992 I bid $520 US but was outbid. ;) The freight calculator says it can't find a carrier to my zip code. What bad luck! Gil From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 12 23:45:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: <200509130437.j8D4b0aO092509@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, Gil Carrick wrote: > 5242159992 > > I bid $520 US but was outbid. ;) > > The freight calculator says it can't find a carrier to my zip code. > > What bad luck! Hmm, the Freeman PC Museum. I thought they'd dispensed with that months ago. At any rate, the reserve was not met, and it never will be. Nobody (or at least very few people) have the wherewithall to buy the complete collection. They need to bite the bullet and part it out. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 12 23:59:27 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 00:59:27 -0400 Subject: Various Macs for Sale References: <431FA38F.6090607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6.2.5.1.2.20050907235048.033f7108@boff-net.dhs.org> <20050912182655.55945950.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002601c5b81f$eb30fb80$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 7:47 PM Subject: Re: Various Macs for Sale > On 9/12/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > > The SE/30 is also nice > > because you can put a lot more memory in it than any other 'classic' > > Mac. 32 megs is trivial, and if you chase down 30 pin 16M SIMMs you can > > put 128 Megs in an SE/30. > > I've had an SE/30 for about 10 years (it was the first Mac I've owned > with a SuperDrive), but I've never been able to lay my hands on any 30 > pin 16MB SIMMs... they are rarer than 72 pin 36-bit 32MB SIMMs for > sun4m machines (SPARCclassic, LX) - _those_ I've been able to track > down to max out an LX or two. > > At least one doesn't _need_ 128MB on a 68K Mac running MacOS, unless > you are doing a lot of Photoshop work - then, I'd recommend a newer > machine anyway, one with color, like a Mac IIci w/cache card. > > -ethan > I have atleast 4 sets of 4 x 16MB 30 pin SIMMs (all are in my 3 Quadra 950's). They are not that rare, but are expensive to buy (something like $45 a set of 4 any day on ebay). I would be thrilled to find a stack of those SIMMs cheap somewhere since I need more memory for my two Radius Rockets (8x 30 pin each). I try to loadup my Macs with ram so that I don't have to use virtual memory at all (speeds things up), its also good to give web browsers extra ram to use. From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Sep 13 00:29:55 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 01:29:55 -0400 Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: <200509130437.j8D4b0aO092509@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200509081912.j88JCP3s084851@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050913011327.047f8238@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Gil Carrick may have mentioned these words: >5242159992 > >I bid $520 US but was outbid. ;) Sheesh. They don't have a Tandy 200, or an Atari 5200, or an Atari STacy. What kinda collection is that, anyway??? ;-P Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Sep 13 05:25:50 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:25:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: <200509130437.j8D4b0aO092509@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200509081912.j88JCP3s084851@keith.ezwind.net> <200509130437.j8D4b0aO092509@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <48580.195.188.29.80.1126607150.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > 5242159992 > > I bid $520 US but was outbid. ;) > There's actually some machines there I need but I ain't bidding a ton of money I don't have just to get them. It's also the first place on the web apart from my own site that I've seen a picture of the STM Pied Piper, though ISTR Sellam saying he has a couple. Someone's going to have to be very dedicated to organise and collect something that big! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From jba at sdf.lonestar.org Tue Sep 13 07:06:52 2005 From: jba at sdf.lonestar.org (Jeffrey Armstrong) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 12:06:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC *Rainbow* stuph Message-ID: The best place to find Rainbow software is ftp.update.uu.se under /pub/rainbow. Tons of software is available there. They appear to have a complete DECUS disk set archive, but there is other software there that I believe is not found in the DECUS disks. -Jeff -- Original Message: -- > From: Chris M > Subject: DEC *Rainbow* stuph > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <20050908040212.48090.qmail at web61018.mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > I recently obtained a Rainbow 100 with a gaggle of > disks. The person had told me there was a complete or > nearly so set of DECUS disks included. None of them > imaged w/o errors, so I just became disgusted and gave > up. Now we know of all the semi-compatible peecees, > the Rainbow is probably the easiest to find software > for. So where is the archive that has the DECUS stuph? > And there is a set of DECUS newsletters on Ebay at > this very moment. jba at sdf.lonestar.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 13 09:15:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 07:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: <48580.195.188.29.80.1126607150.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Witchy wrote: > There's actually some machines there I need but I ain't bidding a ton of > money I don't have just to get them. It's also the first place on the web > apart from my own site that I've seen a picture of the STM Pied Piper, > though ISTR Sellam saying he has a couple. No, just one ;) And the only one I've ever seen at that. It's quite a rare beast. > Someone's going to have to be very dedicated to organise and collect > something that big! Fo' real. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Sep 13 10:17:10 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:17:10 -0400 Subject: SimOS - emulating a SGI MIPS IRIX environment Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545DC1@cpexchange.olf.com> Anyone try SimOS to emulate a SGI IRIX environment? I want to use this to continue with my porting initiative... http://simos.stanford.edu/ Thanks, Ram From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Sep 13 11:36:35 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 11:36:35 Subject: Looking for IBM PC/XT/AT technical references In-Reply-To: <43263F67.90708@nktelco.net> References: <3.0.6.16.20050912151805.0fe77702@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20050912151805.0fe77702@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050913113635.0f5fa12e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:54 PM 9/12/05 -0400, you wrote: >Joe R. wrote: > >>However I did find three IBM marked FH Tandon TM-100 5 1/4" disk drives >>last week :-) >> >> >Are those special? They're not special, just scarce. Especially if you're trying to restore an IBM PC that's been upgraded with HH drives or if your original drives are damaged. Believe it or not, the original PC stuff is getting HARD to find and the original drives and expansion cards were the first to be replaced and lost. Joe I think my TRS-80 Model III has two of them. I >scrounged them about 20 years ago... They were double sided after all. > >> Joe >> >> >-chuck > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Sep 13 11:12:41 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:12:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: References: <48580.195.188.29.80.1126607150.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <22906.195.188.29.80.1126627961.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> >> apart from my own site that I've seen a picture of the STM Pied Piper, >> though ISTR Sellam saying he has a couple. > > No, just one ;) And the only one I've ever seen at that. It's quite a > rare beast. There must have been a load of them at BAe systems since I managed to rescue 4 complete ones (including a prototype) and a load of spares to allow me to build one more unit. Makes me wonder if the PP II ever made it to market with its LCD screen in where the keyboard cover was on the first version..... For those that don't know what we're talking about it's one of these: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/stm/index.php Note that the line where it says 'Adam Osborne was first out of the gates' there's an invisible 'probably' before 'first' :oD -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Sep 13 12:26:36 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:26:36 +0100 Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43270BCC.4090106@gjcp.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Witchy wrote: > > >>There's actually some machines there I need but I ain't bidding a ton of >>money I don't have just to get them. It's also the first place on the web >>apart from my own site that I've seen a picture of the STM Pied Piper, >>though ISTR Sellam saying he has a couple. > > > No, just one ;) And the only one I've ever seen at that. It's quite a > rare beast. Is there anything you *don't* have? Gordon. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 12:29:18 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 13:29:18 -0400 Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43270C6E.5070105@gmail.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Witchy wrote: > > >>There's actually some machines there I need but I ain't bidding a ton of >>money I don't have just to get them. It's also the first place on the web >>apart from my own site that I've seen a picture of the STM Pied Piper, >>though ISTR Sellam saying he has a couple. > > > No, just one ;) And the only one I've ever seen at that. It's quite a > rare beast. > > >>Someone's going to have to be very dedicated to organise and collect >>something that big! > > > Fo' real. If the collection is still around in a month or so, I'll think about picking it up. Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 13 12:55:00 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:55:00 +0100 Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: <43270BCC.4090106@gjcp.net> References: <43270BCC.4090106@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43271274.3050909@yahoo.co.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Is there anything you *don't* have? Room in his house for human beings? ;) From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Sep 13 15:05:34 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:05:34 +0100 Subject: HP2648A terminal References: <200508101641.j7AGeoOq007880@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <00a101c5b89e$8040c880$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Thanks to everyone who sent comments on this terminal. I'm still digesting it all, and will get back to one or two of you for more information soon. Thanks Jim. From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Sep 13 15:04:09 2005 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 15:04:09 -0500 Subject: DEC *Rainbow* stuph In-Reply-To: <200509130303.j8D33hCI077079@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509130303.j8D33hCI077079@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 22:03 -0500 9/12/05, Chris wrote: >From: Chris M >Subject: DEC *Rainbow* stuph >... >I recently obtained a Rainbow 100 with a gaggle of >disks. ... So where is the archive that has the DECUS stuph? ftp ftp.update.uu.se login as anonymous, use your email as a password cd pub/rainbow browse and enjoy. Hats off to the update maintainers, they rock! More generally, http://www.classiccmp.org/rainbow/files.html also rocks! Kudos to Jeff Armstrong for that one, and for being too modest to mention it in his reply (which I read after confirming the ftp address for update). -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 From esharpe at uswest.net Tue Sep 13 14:22:00 2005 From: esharpe at uswest.net (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 12:22:00 -0700 Subject: DEC logic lab leads References: <000001c5b4d4$477e67a0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <000001c5b8a7$46c39840$4291a8c0@emachine7331> I have a few stra dec logic labs alas no cables xtra thought.. will sell/trade 2 of our duplicates. for enough money or the right item I will not have to put them on ebay contact me at the email address off the www.smecc.org page.. I seldom check mail on this address here this message is sent from. Thanks! Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC See the Southwest Museum of Engineering, Communications and Computation online at: http://www.smecc.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Rubin" To: "Classic Computer List" Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 5:20 PM Subject: DEC logic lab leads > I've reposted the image in "manual" mode for the luddites among us ;>) ! > > http://www.sideslip.net/dec_lab_leads/ > > Jack > > From esharpe at uswest.net Tue Sep 13 14:22:00 2005 From: esharpe at uswest.net (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 12:22:00 -0700 Subject: DEC logic lab leads References: <000001c5b4d4$477e67a0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <000001c5b8a7$46c39840$4291a8c0@emachine7331> I have a few stra dec logic labs alas no cables xtra thought.. will sell/trade 2 of our duplicates. for enough money or the right item I will not have to put them on ebay contact me at the email address off the www.smecc.org page.. I seldom check mail on this address here this message is sent from. Thanks! Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC See the Southwest Museum of Engineering, Communications and Computation online at: http://www.smecc.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Rubin" To: "Classic Computer List" Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 5:20 PM Subject: DEC logic lab leads > I've reposted the image in "manual" mode for the luddites among us ;>) ! > > http://www.sideslip.net/dec_lab_leads/ > > Jack > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 13 14:42:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:42:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: <43270BCC.4090106@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Sep 13, 5 06:26:36 pm Message-ID: > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Witchy wrote: > > > > > >>There's actually some machines there I need but I ain't bidding a ton of > >>money I don't have just to get them. It's also the first place on the web > >>apart from my own site that I've seen a picture of the STM Pied Piper, > >>though ISTR Sellam saying he has a couple. > > > > > > No, just one ;) And the only one I've ever seen at that. It's quite a > > rare beast. > > Is there anything you *don't* have? Well, what about (some of these are relatively common over here, I don't think many got acorss the Pond): PERQ 2 T4 PERQ 3a (AGW330) FTS-88 Torch XXX Torch Quad-X 370/E (this is not an IBM machine, in fact I am not sure who made it. It runs the user-mode part of the IBM 370 instruction set, it's one 7U or 8U rack, the PCBs are the form factor of DEC hex boards) Inmos FEP Inmos ITEM AMT DAP (any version) Philps P800 mini (any model) Acorn Cambridge Workstation -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 13 14:29:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:29:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for IBM PC/XT/AT technical references In-Reply-To: <43263F67.90708@nktelco.net> from "Charles H. Dickman" at Sep 12, 5 10:54:31 pm Message-ID: > > Joe R. wrote: > > >However I did find three IBM marked FH Tandon TM-100 5 1/4" disk drives > >last week :-) > > > > > Are those special? I think my TRS-80 Model III has two of them. I > scrounged them about 20 years ago... They were double sided after all. AFAIK there is nothing electrically or mechanically special about them, apart from the faceplate. So whether there's anything special about them to you depends on whether you care about having that faceplate... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 13 14:35:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 20:35:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: SWTPC Digi-Vista Nixie Clock In-Reply-To: <20050912203645.A2021@kallisti.com> from "Allan Hessenflow" at Sep 12, 5 08:36:45 pm Message-ID: > > woodelf wrote: > > I would have updated the high voltage power supply to a simple > > transistor regulator. I have about 128 AC around here and that > > can really give over voltage on 115 V transformers. > > PS. Where do you find a 300 V transformer ... I may build one > > some day. > > If you don't want to scrounge surplus stores, or wind your own, Hammond > currently makes a couple that would work. They are the 269BX and > 369BX, depending on whether you want "universal" primaries or not. > Their high voltage secondaries are 300VCT, and they also have the 6.3V > windings. They're a bit larger than necessary, being rated for 2-3 > times the power called for in that design. If this is just to power the nixie tubes, then the current required is pretty low. You would probably manage it with a mains transformer used backwards, running off the logic supply transeformer : Suppose the logic supply transformer has a 9V secondary. Get another, smaller power, mains-to-9V transformer (say use 50VA for the first one, 20VA for the second, those are likely to be overkill). Connect the 'secondary') of the second, smaller, transformer to the secondary of the first one (which still supplies the logic PSU circuit). That second transformer will acts aas a step-up transformer, and will give you something a bit less than mains voltage across what was originally its primary winding. And of course that's totally isolated from the mains. If you manage to get a transformer designed for 230V mains for the second one (or one with 2 115V 'primaries' that you can connect in series), then just rectiying it would probably be OK for the nixie tube supply. If you can only get one with a single 115V primary, you could use a voltage doubled rectifier. Either way you'll end up with something over 300V DC -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 15:36:56 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 16:36:56 -0400 Subject: Looking for IBM PC/XT/AT technical references In-Reply-To: References: <43263F67.90708@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On 9/13/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > >However I did find three IBM marked FH Tandon TM-100 5 1/4" disk drives > > >last week :-) > > > > > Are those special? I think my TRS-80 Model III has two of them. > > AFAIK there is nothing electrically or mechanically special about them, > apart from the faceplate. For those that are considering moving floppy drives from one machine to another, just remember that there are single and double-sided versions of the TM-100 (various models from the TM-100-1 through the TM-100-4). As long as you match up the model numbers (the TM-100-2A is probably what you want for an ancient PC), the logo on the face plate has no influence on what the controller does to the drive (i.e. - there are _no_ electronic differences between an IBM-badged TM-100 and the same drive with a plain faceplate). I only say that because I've seen single-sided TM-100s (TM-100-1A) in CP/M machines. They should work with an IBM 5150 PC, but, naturally, only as single-sided drives, at a nominal 180K under DOS 2.1 and newer (9 sectors per track vs 8 sector "160K" disks in the earliest examples). -ethan -ethan From esharpe at uswest.net Tue Sep 13 16:42:00 2005 From: esharpe at uswest.net (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:42:00 -0700 Subject: DEC Computer Lab References: <18583518.1125709413708.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <005401c5b8ab$f9809880$4291a8c0@emachine7331> scan it and lets put it online hen easy for anyone to load it down. there is room on our server for a pdf scan of it.... contact me off the email on www.smecc.org I seldom use this email address these days. ed sharpe archivist for smecc www.smecc.org ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Carder" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 6:03 PM Subject: Re: DEC Computer Lab > >>> Dear Ashley, > >>> > >>> Yes, I have them. See > >>> http://www.sonnet.be/dec/computerlab.htm > >>> I can photocopy them for you, if you want. > >> > >> I'd also be interested in a copy of the "Computer Lab Teacher's Guide". > >> (I have copies of the student workbook already.) > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Vince > > > >Phillippe, > > > >I would like a copy of the teacher's guide too. Thanks for your offer > >to photocopy. You can email me off-list at wacarder at usit.net. > > > >Thanks, > >Ashley > > Phillippe, > > If you want to just make one copy, you can send it to me and I will > copy it and send to the other folks here in the U.S. That will keep you > from having to pay for multiple shipments across the ocean. > > Ashley > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 13 16:46:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: <43270BCC.4090106@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Witchy wrote: > > > > > >>There's actually some machines there I need but I ain't bidding a ton of > >>money I don't have just to get them. It's also the first place on the web > >>apart from my own site that I've seen a picture of the STM Pied Piper, > >>though ISTR Sellam saying he has a couple. > > > > > > No, just one ;) And the only one I've ever seen at that. It's quite a > > rare beast. > > Is there anything you *don't* have? Does anyone have a spare IBM 5100? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 13 16:48:43 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:48:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > No, just one ;) And the only one I've ever seen at that. It's quite a > > > rare beast. > > > > Is there anything you *don't* have? > > Well, what about (some of these are relatively common over here, I don't > think many got acorss the Pond): > > PERQ 2 T4 > > PERQ 3a (AGW330) > > FTS-88 > > Torch XXX > > Torch Quad-X > > 370/E (this is not an IBM machine, in fact I am not sure who made it. It > runs the user-mode part of the IBM 370 instruction set, it's one 7U or 8U > rack, the PCBs are the form factor of DEC hex boards) > > Inmos FEP > > Inmos ITEM > > AMT DAP (any version) > > Philps P800 mini (any model) > > Acorn Cambridge Workstation Don't make me start listing models you don't have ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Tue Sep 13 16:59:02 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 09:59:02 +1200 Subject: SWTPC Digi-Vista Nixie Clock References: Message-ID: <056801c5b8ae$5a310730$7900a8c0@athlon1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 7:35 AM Subject: Re: SWTPC Digi-Vista Nixie Clock ______________SNIP_____ Either way you'll end up with something over 300V DC > > -tony Worth pointing out that in general, you don't need anything like 300 volts. Most nixies will run very well at no more than 120 volts HT supply-and if you make your own drivers then 300 volt ( cheap and readily available) transistors can be used. DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.24/100 - Release Date: 13/09/2005 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Sep 13 17:41:54 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 23:41:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: References: <43270BCC.4090106@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <50726.82.152.112.73.1126651314.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > rare beast. >> >> Is there anything you *don't* have? > > Does anyone have a spare IBM 5100? Bah, I stop short at a 5150 :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 13 17:49:58 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:49:58 -0400 Subject: SWTPC Digi-Vista Nixie Clock Message-ID: <0IMS00HKQ22JLWA2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Top posted for brevity. Most equipment I've worked with run 160-190V for Nixies. Further my Yaesu YC-355D freq counter that I purchased in 1973 is nixie based and also uses around 170V. FYI: base logic is venerable 7490, 7475 and 7441 for the decades. For a simple PS to run nixies (and valves) I use a 6.3V CT 600ma or 1A To 117V mains transformer. They are common here in the USA and cheap. I drive them with a pair of bipolar power transistors in TO220 cases from 12V. Base drive for those transistors is derived from a squarewave source of two phases 180 degrees (555 and 7474 work fine) at 400hz or so (not criticial, higher makes filtering easier and less mechanical hum). The ouput can be rectified and filterd as needed (bridge or doubler is what I do depending on voltages needed). The voltage will be around 210V with a small load (10ma). If I need more power a heavier transformer with 3A or 5A 6.5V winding is used. Also if a stable voltage is needed sample the output and use that as feed back to a series pass feeding primary side power. That will regulate very well. I've built that many times and run many a HV device and even a CRT (D170 size) that required 1200V. For that I used a small 1A 10VCT:230V control transformer and a voltage multiplier and feedback for regulation. Works well. I prefer the driven style rather than self excited voltage converter as it's easier starting and has stable operation. It also doesn't require a special (hard to find or make) multiwinding transformer. the rest of the parts are also generally easily found in defunct stereos or even ratshack. Exotica and unobtainium is a pain. Allison > >Subject: Re: SWTPC Digi-Vista Nixie Clock > From: "Dave Brown" > Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 09:59:02 +1200 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tony Duell" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 7:35 AM >Subject: Re: SWTPC Digi-Vista Nixie Clock > >______________SNIP_____ > >Either way you'll end up with something over 300V DC >> >> -tony > >Worth pointing out that in general, you don't need anything like 300 >volts. Most nixies will run very well at no more than 120 volts HT >supply-and if you make your own drivers then 300 volt ( cheap and >readily available) transistors can be used. > >DaveB, NZ > > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.24/100 - Release Date: 13/09/2005 From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Sep 13 18:24:27 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:24:27 -0500 Subject: Looking for IBM PC/XT/AT technical references In-Reply-To: <43263F67.90708@nktelco.net> References: <3.0.6.16.20050912151805.0fe77702@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <43263F67.90708@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <20050913182427.14911d31.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 22:54:31 -0400 "Charles H. Dickman" wrote: > Joe R. wrote: > > >However I did find three IBM marked FH Tandon TM-100 5 1/4" disk > >drives last week :-) > > > > > Are those special? I think my TRS-80 Model III has two of them. I > scrounged them about 20 years ago... They were double sided after > all. > > > Joe > > > > > -chuck > Back then I had to upgrade my dad's PC-1 to double sided so he could run DOS 2.1. He ordered his with 256K so he was ready for any eventuality, he thought. Also then later had to add a Boca RAM board. From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Sep 13 18:26:16 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:26:16 -0500 Subject: Looking for IBM PC/XT/AT technical references In-Reply-To: References: <43263F67.90708@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <20050913182616.2c2c108f.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 16:36:56 -0400 Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/13/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > > >However I did find three IBM marked FH Tandon TM-100 5 1/4" disk > > > >drives last week :-) > > > > > > > Are those special? I think my TRS-80 Model III has two of them. > > > > AFAIK there is nothing electrically or mechanically special about > > them, apart from the faceplate. > > For those that are considering moving floppy drives from one machine > to another, just remember that there are single and double-sided > versions of the TM-100 (various models from the TM-100-1 through the > TM-100-4). As long as you match up the model numbers (the TM-100-2A > is probably what you want for an ancient PC), the logo on the face > plate has no influence on what the controller does to the drive (i.e. > - there are _no_ electronic differences between an IBM-badged TM-100 > and the same drive with a plain faceplate). > > I only say that because I've seen single-sided TM-100s (TM-100-1A) in > CP/M machines. They should work with an IBM 5150 PC, but, naturally, > only as single-sided drives, at a nominal 180K under DOS 2.1 and newer > (9 sectors per track vs 8 sector "160K" disks in the earliest > examples). > Yes but then you can notch your diskettes and flip them. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Sep 13 18:38:40 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 16:38:40 -0700 Subject: RK07 cartridge, other "vintage" items, Wang "loopback" on Epay Message-ID: <43276300.7BC402F9@msm.umr.edu> This vendor in new hampshire has an RK07 in this auction, 4131071126 , and some other "vintage" things that look to be of interest to collectors of the later model mini stuff. He has a huge pile that is of interest in general, if you can wade thru it all. Maybe he'll tell you about it on Skype. Jim From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Sep 13 18:43:46 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:43:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Does anyone have a spare IBM 5100? Get me an S/360 or 370, and I would swap away my 5100/5103. Yeah right... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 13 18:50:59 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:50:59 -0500 Subject: eBay References: Message-ID: <008b01c5b8bd$fdb8bec0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Get me an S/360 or 370, and I would swap away my 5100/5103. There's always South America, according to Sellam we could find a S360/S370 there pretty easy. I'm darn near up for checking flights. Jay From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Sep 13 19:06:49 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:06:49 -0700 Subject: IBM PC hacking Message-ID: <43276999.A056B9F0@msm.umr.edu> I saw an auction which reminded me of the days when the PC and XT came out, but before clones or otherwise appeared, and before such as AST were dominating the market. This auction is for a "zukerboard" 576K mem expansion. 6801436037. I remember the hype for zucker that they were going to wreck the market. The only reason this has any significance is that I believe this was one of the AST wannabe's, or even was larger than AST, pre the days when they started making systems. I know of at least Zucker, Tecmar (marty tech, I don't remember marty's last name, but he was some sort of PHD ohio type, I think). A number of companies were based here in Orange County, California, and provided a lot of cheap stuff as they cratered, and the local scrappers got their. stuff and sold it off. Processor Technology (? I think) went big time and cratered. I remember a little shop here in Santa Ana which had the first clone of the IBM PC. It was a single board which had 640k memory, allowed using 64k memories, instead of the 16K memory that the PC and XT earlier models used. It was called "Superboard" and was no relation to Supermicro, which came much later. It had a bios that usually worked, but also had, conveniently, a spot for up to 6 eprom chips, so you could put in a PC bios if you could get a copy. The PC used either EProms, (16K I think) and the Roms that were shipped with the BIOS were registered. The standard Data I/O would not read them since they were not programmable, and needed their output enabled to read the data. But once someone had them in the 2716's, it was easy to get them running in your superboard. First systems had a 63 watt P/S, and IBM cards if you could find them for video. Also there was no floppy controller on the first board. Maybe others of you can recall expansion card makers, of such things as serial, parallel, memory, floppy, then hard drive, etc. Jim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 13 18:33:38 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 00:33:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for IBM PC/XT/AT technical references In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 13, 5 04:36:56 pm Message-ID: > I only say that because I've seen single-sided TM-100s (TM-100-1A) in > CP/M machines. They should work with an IBM 5150 PC, but, naturally, > only as single-sided drives, at a nominal 180K under DOS 2.1 and newer > (9 sectors per track vs 8 sector "160K" disks in the earliest > examples). Presumably there were single-sided TM-100s with the IBM logo on the faceplate (IIRC the original PC drive _was_ 160K/180K -- i.e. single-sided). I asusme somebody has managed to rescue one... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 13 18:37:36 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 00:37:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Sep 13, 5 02:48:43 pm Message-ID: > > Don't make me start listing models you don't have ;) OK, let me start.... Apple 1. Apple //c. Apple 3, Apple Lisa, Atari 800, Sinclair ZX80, (and that's just the common micros...) More seriously, the important thing is not that you've got a bigger collection than me (which you certainly have), but that somebody has preserved these machines, and that we all enjoy the machines that we each own... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 13 18:45:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 00:45:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <43276999.A056B9F0@msm.umr.edu> from "jim stephens" at Sep 13, 5 05:06:49 pm Message-ID: > I remember a little shop here in Santa Ana which had the first clone of > the IBM PC. It was a single board which had 640k memory, allowed > using 64k memories, instead of the 16K memory that the PC and XT > earlier models used. DId any IBM PC/ST motherboards use 16K DRAMs. Yes, I know the standard memory mapping PROM could be set up to use 4 rows of 4816s (64K o nthe mainboard), but did IBM ever do that? There's no mention of it in my TechRef. > The PC used either EProms, (16K I think) and the Roms that were > shipped with the BIOS were registered. The standard Data I/O would Do you mean there were internal data latches in the IBM ROMs? > not read them since they were not programmable, and needed their > output enabled to read the data. > > But once someone had them in the 2716's, it was easy to get them > running in your superboard. Surely it was trivial to use DEBUG or similar to dump the appropriate area of memory to disk... > > First systems had a 63 watt P/S, and IBM cards if you could find > them for video. Also there was no floppy controller on the first > board. AFAIK, no IBM PC, PC/XT, PC/XT-286, PC/AT, or PC-jr had a floppy (or hard disk) contorller on the mainboard. None had parallel ports either, and the PC-jr was the only one to have video and a serial port on the mainboard. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 13 19:29:23 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for IBM PC/XT/AT technical references In-Reply-To: <20050913182616.2c2c108f.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43263F67.90708@nktelco.net> <20050913182616.2c2c108f.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050913172639.F3526@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Yes but then you can notch your diskettes and flip them. On the PC, "notching" is not enough. You also need to punch a hole on each side og the jacket to permit seeing the index hole. Fortunately, there were jigs (Berkeley Microcomputer "Flip-Jig", etc.) available to make it easier. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 13 19:41:41 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:41:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <43276999.A056B9F0@msm.umr.edu> References: <43276999.A056B9F0@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20050913173141.Y3526@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, jim stephens wrote: > It was called "Superboard" and was no relation to Supermicro, which > came much later. It had a bios that usually worked, but also had, > conveniently, a spot for up to 6 eprom chips, so you could put in a > PC bios if you could get a copy. The "Superboard"s that I got were bare boards, with NO parts. I filled them with Augat sockets. By the time that I was done, my soldering had improved substantially. > The PC used either EProms, (16K I think) and the Roms that were > shipped with the BIOS were registered. The standard Data I/O would > not read them since they were not programmable, and needed their > output enabled to read the data. I just went into DEBUG, copied the 5150 ROMs to an available segment, and wrote them to files. For reasons that I never found out, The IBM ROMs, and copies thereof, could not handle DRIVPARM (present in DOS 3.20 and above. But most aftermarket ROMs could. > First systems had a 63 watt P/S, and IBM cards if you could find > them for video. Also there was no floppy controller on the first > board. But there were also bare boards available for FDC, CGA, etc. > Maybe others of you can recall expansion card makers, of such > things as serial, parallel, memory, floppy, then hard drive, etc. The first aftermarket memory board was from Boulder Creek Systems. It even did ECC! I have some Tecmar "modular multifunction" boards to sell off the next time that I can make it to VCF. Unfortunately, I am stuck with teaching Saturdays this semester :-( -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Sep 13 19:45:53 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:45:53 -0700 Subject: IBM PC hacking References: Message-ID: <432772C0.4C7A923C@msm.umr.edu> Tony Duell wrote: > > I remember a little shop here in Santa Ana which had the first clone of > > the IBM PC. It was a single board which had 640k memory, allowed > > using 64k memories, instead of the 16K memory that the PC and XT > > earlier models used. > > DId any IBM PC/ST motherboards use 16K DRAMs. Yes, I know the standard > memory mapping PROM could be set up to use 4 rows of 4816s (64K o nthe > mainboard), but did IBM ever do that? There's no mention of it in my TechRef. > You may be right, I think due to fog bank between ears that it was 16k in apple ][ then 64k in original xt, then 256k in the superboard. > > > The PC used either EProms, (16K I think) and the Roms that were > > shipped with the BIOS were registered. The standard Data I/O would > > Do you mean there were internal data latches in the IBM ROMs? > Yes, as I understand it and saw, the roms could be enabled, using a line that the data I/O didn't drive (29b variety any did not). So you got FF out when you read them. > > > not read them since they were not programmable, and needed their > > output enabled to read the data. > > > > But once someone had them in the 2716's, it was easy to get them > > running in your superboard. > > Surely it was trivial to use DEBUG or similar to dump the appropriate > area of memory to disk... > Yes the dump was trivial, but the R232 or other to an eprom programmer was not. I had no RS232 or computer driven eprom programmer till much later when the Taiwanese programmer boards came out. Before that, I had only Data I/O 29b. Most distributors that you could buy parts from and beg the use of a programmer could not get the data into their programmers. So you carried the master parts and programmed blanks. anything else was a pain. I'm not talking about what you could do as a company with a budget. I'm talking about what you could do in your house when Data I/O was getting around $20000 for programmers, and $4000 for updates, and they were about all that there was out there. > > > > > First systems had a 63 watt P/S, and IBM cards if you could find > > them for video. Also there was no floppy controller on the first > > board. > > AFAIK, no IBM PC, PC/XT, PC/XT-286, PC/AT, or PC-jr had a floppy (or hard > disk) contorller on the mainboard. None had parallel ports either, and > the PC-jr was the only one to have video and a serial port on the mainboard. > The next rev of the superboard had floppy and serial on board. First versions just cloned the PC motherboard, including the tape interface, later deleted, and accomodated a full 640k w/o extra boards. > > -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 13 19:46:51 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050913174342.Y3526@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > DId any IBM PC/ST motherboards use 16K DRAMs. Yes, I know the standard > memory mapping PROM could be set up to use 4 rows of 4816s (64K o nthe > mainboard), but did IBM ever do that? There's no mention of it in my TechRef. The original 5150, during 1981 and part of 1982 had one row of 16K DRAMs soldered in, and sockets for another three rows. Later, they switched to one row of 64K DRAMs soldered in, with sockets for another three rows. Some (all?) of those motherboards could be trivially modified to take 2 rows of 64K plus two rows of 256K. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 13 20:08:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 18:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > More seriously, the important thing is not that you've got a bigger > collection than me (which you certainly have), but that somebody has > preserved these machines, and that we all enjoy the machines that we each > own... Bigger is better. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 13 20:11:15 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:11:15 -0400 Subject: IBM PC hacking Message-ID: <0IMS001I28LZXL72@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> I still have a AST 6pack pro in my collection of boards for PCs along with a Dimond trackstar128 (Apple][ in a PC). Never used either as they were collected long after their time. Allison > >Subject: IBM PC hacking > From: jim stephens > Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:06:49 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >I saw an auction which reminded me of the days when the PC and XT >came out, but before clones or otherwise appeared, and before such >as AST were dominating the market. > >This auction is for a "zukerboard" 576K mem expansion. 6801436037. >I remember the hype for zucker that they were going to wreck the >market. > >The only reason this has any significance is that I believe this was one >of the >AST wannabe's, or even was larger than AST, pre the days when they >started making systems. > >I know of at least Zucker, Tecmar (marty tech, I don't remember marty's >last name, but he was some sort of PHD ohio type, I think). > >A number of companies were based here in Orange County, California, >and provided a lot of cheap stuff as they cratered, and the local >scrappers >got their. stuff and sold it off. > >Processor Technology (? I think) went big time and cratered. > >I remember a little shop here in Santa Ana which had the first clone of >the IBM PC. It was a single board which had 640k memory, allowed >using 64k memories, instead of the 16K memory that the PC and XT >earlier models used. > >It was called "Superboard" and was no relation to Supermicro, which >came much later. It had a bios that usually worked, but also had, >conveniently, a spot for up to 6 eprom chips, so you could put in a >PC bios if you could get a copy. > >The PC used either EProms, (16K I think) and the Roms that were >shipped with the BIOS were registered. The standard Data I/O would >not read them since they were not programmable, and needed their >output enabled to read the data. > >But once someone had them in the 2716's, it was easy to get them >running in your superboard. > >First systems had a 63 watt P/S, and IBM cards if you could find >them for video. Also there was no floppy controller on the first >board. > >Maybe others of you can recall expansion card makers, of such >things as serial, parallel, memory, floppy, then hard drive, etc. > >Jim From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 20:52:31 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 02:52:31 +0100 Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: References: <43270BCC.4090106@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 9/13/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Witchy wrote: > > > > > > > > >>There's actually some machines there I need but I ain't bidding a ton of > > >>money I don't have just to get them. It's also the first place on the web > > >>apart from my own site that I've seen a picture of the STM Pied Piper, > > >>though ISTR Sellam saying he has a couple. > > > > > > > > > No, just one ;) And the only one I've ever seen at that. It's quite a > > > rare beast. > > > > Is there anything you *don't* have? > > Does anyone have a spare IBM 5100? John Titor has one, but he's in TEH FUTUAR!!1 ;) From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Sep 13 21:43:26 2005 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:43:26 -0700 Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43278E4E.7020602@deltasoft.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Witchy wrote: > > >>There's actually some machines there I need but I ain't bidding a ton of >>money I don't have just to get them. It's also the first place on the web >>apart from my own site that I've seen a picture of the STM Pied Piper, >>though ISTR Sellam saying he has a couple. > > > No, just one ;) And the only one I've ever seen at that. It's quite a > rare beast. > Bah, now you make me feel bad that I got rid of the one I used to have. Had the second drive and the keyboard cover for it too. I BBSed for years on it with a wire-wrapped serial board that I made from the schematics that were included with it. Neat little machine. g. > >>Someone's going to have to be very dedicated to organise and collect >>something that big! > > > Fo' real. > -- -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Sep 13 21:50:23 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:50:23 -0500 Subject: Looking for IBM PC/XT/AT technical references In-Reply-To: <20050913172639.F3526@shell.lmi.net> References: <43263F67.90708@nktelco.net> <20050913182616.2c2c108f.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050913172639.F3526@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050913215023.65807226.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > Yes but then you can notch your diskettes and flip them. > > On the PC, "notching" is not enough. > You also need to punch a hole on each side og the jacket to > permit seeing the index hole. Fortunately, there were jigs > (Berkeley Microcomputer "Flip-Jig", etc.) available to make > it easier. > That's right. I immediately started having second thoughts about the index hole after posting that comment. I never actually needed to 'notch' an IBM PC Diskette. By the time I switched over to the PC from TRS-80 and CP/M, 360K floppy drives were commodity and 'cheap' (I paid $80 apiece for my first PC drives). From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Sep 13 21:59:17 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:59:17 -0500 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: References: <43276999.A056B9F0@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20050913215917.0c1e8744.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 00:45:56 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > I remember a little shop here in Santa Ana which had the first clone > > of the IBM PC. It was a single board which had 640k memory, allowed > > using 64k memories, instead of the 16K memory that the PC and XT > > earlier models used. > > DId any IBM PC/ST motherboards use 16K DRAMs. Yes, I know the standard > > memory mapping PROM could be set up to use 4 rows of 4816s (64K o nthe > > mainboard), but did IBM ever do that? There's no mention of it in my > TechRef. > The IBM PC (PC-1) had four banks of 4116 DRAM on the motherboard. The first row was soldered in, the other three banks were optional. It was called the 16/64K motherboard. My copy of the Technical Reference Manual is from that generation, as it came with dad's 16/64 system. The rest of the 256K was in the I/O channel. > > The PC used either EProms, (16K I think) and the Roms that were > > shipped with the BIOS were registered. The standard Data I/O would > > Do you mean there were internal data latches in the IBM ROMs? > > > not read them since they were not programmable, and needed their > > output enabled to read the data. > > > > But once someone had them in the 2716's, it was easy to get them > > running in your superboard. > > Surely it was trivial to use DEBUG or similar to dump the appropriate > area of memory to disk... > > > > > > First systems had a 63 watt P/S, and IBM cards if you could find > > them for video. Also there was no floppy controller on the first > > board. > > AFAIK, no IBM PC, PC/XT, PC/XT-286, PC/AT, or PC-jr had a floppy (or > hard disk) contorller on the mainboard. None had parallel ports > either, and the PC-jr was the only one to have video and a serial port > on the mainboard. > Just to add more lore: The floppy controller and floppy drive were very optional on the early PC, and a rather pricey option. There was a cassette cable for less wealthy users. And on any IBM machine up to the late XT era, if you boot it up with no disk in the A drive or no floppy hardware at all installed, it will boot into 'cassette basic'. (does anybody know if the PC-AT had cassette basic resident in ROM?) My PC Convertable will do so. Sadly, you can't save or load anything into 'Cassette Basic' on the Convertable or models later than the PC as there's no cassette interface. I wonder if anybody has ever 'back ported' the Cassette port to an ISA bus card?? (not that it would help on the PC Convertable, of course. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 22:22:04 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 22:22:04 -0500 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <20050913215917.0c1e8744.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <43276999.A056B9F0@msm.umr.edu> <20050913215917.0c1e8744.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 9/13/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > The IBM PC (PC-1) had four banks of 4116 DRAM on the motherboard... > Just to add more lore: > The floppy controller and floppy drive were very optional on the early > PC, and a rather pricey option... Wasn't the pricing something like minimal equipment for $1695 or $1895, but about $5K with maxed memory and two floppies? I worked at Bruce and James Publishing when they released "WordVision" for the PC - I still have my free copy - the back of the package says "96K of RAM required. PC-DOS 1.0 or higher required. Floppy drive required." They felt it was necessary to tell the potential customer that they'd need a disk drive to use software distributed on disk. The real "problem" with WordVision is that it uses a software timing loop for key repeat. I ran into someone about 10 years ago selling ancient copies of it at a HamFest, along with a patch to disable key repeat. With that patch, it works fine on newer machines and newer versions of DOS. I _think_ it works OK on 386s and DOS 3.3, perhaps newer than that. Of course, without the patch, even breathing on a key fills the screen with unwanted keystrokes. Works great on a 256K 5150, though. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 13 23:20:31 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:20:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: References: <43276999.A056B9F0@msm.umr.edu> <20050913215917.0c1e8744.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050913211609.Q13211@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > [5150] > Wasn't the pricing something like minimal equipment for $1695 or > $1895, but about $5K with maxed memory and two floppies? $13xx ! ($1365? $1380?) with minimum RAM, no floppies, and no adapters. But the FDC card was about $300 the CGA card was about $300 IBM wanted something like $300 for each row of RAM! (<$100 for the same chips "for TRS-80 or Apple") IBM wanted something like $300 for each floppy drive (<$100 for same thing "for TRS-80") IBM wanted something like $600 for CGA, $300 for Mono (<$100 for composite B&W CCTV monitor) From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Sep 14 00:18:48 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 22:18:48 -0700 Subject: Using SimOS to simulate a SGI MIPS IRIX environment Message-ID: <43c647da5fa0ff9cf74131905ec41c7f@valleyimplants.com> Looked at that a few years ago- at that time it required a customized IRIX environment to run, and Stanford was only allowed to distribute the diffs against IRIX 5.3, and not 6.2. It looks like they now have 6.4, but again can't distribute- it depends what you want to do (I can't remember what your project is) but 5.3 is definitely a more proprietary UNIX than 6.2+ is in terms of requiring IRIX specific tweaks and oddities.The upside, of course, is that your program will run on R3k (which can only run up to IRIX 5.3, generally, some IPs max out at 5.2, and the earlier machines really like 4.0.5 or less, which is even weirder to code for, especially 3.x [NeWS-based windowing system] (how's that for a run-on?)). Indys are cheap and small if you want a nice 6.2 machine, I even have a r5k in the garage if you want it for free and are anywhere near Washington state. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 14 08:21:52 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 06:21:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I worked at Bruce and James Publishing when they released "WordVision" > for the PC - I still have my free copy - the back of the package says > "96K of RAM required. PC-DOS 1.0 or higher required. Floppy drive > required." They felt it was necessary to tell the potential customer > that they'd need a disk drive to use software distributed on disk. Well, of course you remember that back then disk drives were still a somewhat expensive option, and lots of software was being distributed on cassette back then, and it would not be obvious to the consumer whether they were buying software on disk or cassette unless the package told them. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Wed Sep 14 08:26:50 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 09:26:50 -0400 Subject: Using SimOS to simulate a SGI MIPS IRIX environment Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545DDF@cpexchange.olf.com> Hi, I am currently porting the INMOS iserver program to work with some more modern processors and also revamping it to be a lot more modular. I really don't have the space for any new machines currently, hence the reason for the emulator. As long as I can compile and have access to TCP/IP, I am set.... Thanks, Ram > system] (how's that for a run-on?)). Indys are cheap and small if you > want a nice 6.2 machine, I even have a r5k in the garage if > you want it > for free and are anywhere near Washington state. > From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org Mon Sep 12 13:14:26 2005 From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 11:14:26 -0700 Subject: HP 150 Touchscreen Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20050912110826.05f4fb38@mail.homepower.com> Hello Friends: Just cleaning out storage and decided to sell my one-owner HP150B. But first I need to make it work. It was working when I put it back in its boxes 20 +/- years ago. But, I can't get past the pre-boot error message, "Power-on test failed 0004" or sometimes "0000c". Anybody know these error messages? Or better yet, where I can get a list of power-on error messages? From trag at io.com Mon Sep 12 14:15:08 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:15:08 -0500 Subject: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? In-Reply-To: <200509121811.j8CIBXTD071628@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509121811.j8CIBXTD071628@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 12:58:30 -0400 >From: Roger Merchberger >Subject: Re: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? >>In fact, I have not been able to find precoated board (photoresist coated) >>in the .050" thickness. So I will either need to use a liquid photoresist >>or try a toner transfer system. > >I dunno about 0.050", but would the 1/32" thickness be close enough? >(That's 0.03125" thickness, if you can believe the Winders calcaputer >applet ;-) I am building SIMMs of various sorts, so the .047" - .053" requirement is firm. They must fit properly in the sockets. >>Do the developer and/or stripper usually turn out to be some commonly >>(cheaply) available chemical? I would prefer to avoid paying $6+ for a >>small bottle if I can avoid it. > >One kg of ammonium persulfate will make 4 liters of etchant, Developer and stripper are not etchant. After applying and exposing photoresist, one uses developer to remove the unexposed (or exposed for positive) photoresist without affecting the exposed (or unexposed) photoresist. After etching the excess copper away with an etchant, the polymerized photoresist is still present on the protected copper traces and must be removed using a stripper. So, when using a photoresist system, one needs developer, etchant and stripper. However, I suspect that the stripper, at least, may be some commonly available chemical such as acetone. And I believe that Tony mentioned that developer is usually just a strong alkalai. Thank you for the helpful information and for sharing your experiences. The supply source and books look interesting. Jeff Walther From trag at io.com Mon Sep 12 14:19:31 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:19:31 -0500 Subject: 64 pin SIMM (Mac IIFX) Specs? In-Reply-To: <200509121811.j8CIBXTD071628@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509121811.j8CIBXTD071628@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 13:42:39 -0400 >From: "Teo Zenios" >Subject: Re: 64 pin SIMM (Mac IIFX) Specs? >Are you planning on selling 16MB SIMMs or just making a few > for personal satisfaction? If I can make it work without being too big a pain, I'll probably sell some as well. There seems to be a strong (but small) demand from folks who love their IIFXs. At this point I'm not even certain that I can make the circuit boards reliably and affordably. On the other hand, until a couple of weeks ago I couldn't even find .047" copper clad board. Finding a source of that is what got me going. Jeff Walther From trag at io.com Mon Sep 12 14:25:38 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:25:38 -0500 Subject: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? In-Reply-To: <200509121811.j8CIBXTD071628@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509121811.j8CIBXTD071628@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 12:46:20 -0700 >From: Marvin Johnston >Subject: Re: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Message-ID: <431F438C.E21624B2 at rain.org> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >> From: Jeff Walther > >> In fact, I have not been able to find precoated board (photoresist >> coated) in the .050" thickness. So I will either need to use a >> liquid photoresist or try a toner transfer system. > >Personally, I would avoid liquid photoresist and use dry film in its >place. You could contact Fred at Far Circuits >(http://www.farcircuits.net/) as he will supply boards precoated with >dry film photoresist. URL for supplies is >http://www.farcircuits.net/supplies.htm. According to the site, he will >supply 0.047 material laminated with Dupont PM115 photo resist film. Now he tells me?! :-) I'm already down the road with the uncoated .047" board. If that yields poor results I will try Far Circuits. Thank you for that source. I searched all over the place and never found that page. Sigh. Jeff Walther From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 12 19:50:30 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 17:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: a long shot...Wanted - Canon AS-100 Message-ID: <20050913005030.36801.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> I may have posted this previously. Also *always* looking for other weirdo PC-incompatibles. Don't ask me for a list (right now anyway). If you got something and not sure, contact me. Moocho grassyass :). This and other *wierdos* can be viewed at www.old-computers.com if ya didn't know it. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Mon Sep 12 22:14:40 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 23:14:40 -0400 Subject: Various Macs for Sale In-Reply-To: <20050912205342.0680e78b.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <431FA38F.6090607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6.2.5.1.2.20050907235048.033f7108@boff-net.dhs.org> <20050912182655.55945950.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050912205342.0680e78b.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.1.2.20050912231305.033e18d8@boff-net.dhs.org> I used to have a contact at Transcend (memory guys). In 2003, 30 pin, 16MB SIMMS were about $138 U.S. per, only orderable in pairs, but they could produce on demand. Nowadays, I have no idea, but I'm sure a few places still have them. -John Boffemmyer IV At 09:53 PM 9/12/2005, you wrote: >On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 18:47:07 -0500 >Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > On 9/12/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > The SE/30 is also nice > > > because you can put a lot more memory in it than any other 'classic' > > > Mac. 32 megs is trivial, and if you chase down 30 pin 16M SIMMs you > > > can put 128 Megs in an SE/30. > > > > I've had an SE/30 for about 10 years (it was the first Mac I've owned > > with a SuperDrive), but I've never been able to lay my hands on any 30 > > pin 16MB SIMMs... they are rarer than 72 pin 36-bit 32MB SIMMs for > > sun4m machines (SPARCclassic, LX) - _those_ I've been able to track > > down to max out an LX or two. > > > > At least one doesn't _need_ 128MB on a 68K Mac running MacOS, unless > > you are doing a lot of Photoshop work - then, I'd recommend a newer > > machine anyway, one with color, like a Mac IIci w/cache card. > > > >Yes, Photoshop on an SE/30 does seem a bit silly, with it's one-bit >'color' graphics capability. > >Memory upgrades for older hardware is always problematic. I would love >to have more memory in my Powerbook 165c, but it's very proprietary. At >least if you get old enough, it becomes individual chips. Ironically, >it's easier to find the memory to upgrade my Sym 1 than it is to find >the memory to upgrade that Powerbook. (So my Sym 1 is 'torqued out' at, >I think, the full 8k) > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.21/96 - Release Date: 9/10/2005 > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.21/96 - Release Date: 9/10/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.21/96 - Release Date: 9/10/2005 From Steven_R_Hutchins at Raytheon.com Tue Sep 13 05:52:29 2005 From: Steven_R_Hutchins at Raytheon.com (Steven_R_Hutchins at Raytheon.com) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 06:52:29 -0400 Subject: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? Message-ID: DIY is fun, but try this site for pc boards. $88. for quantity 2, double sided boards, 4 day turnaround $122 for quantity 2, 4 layer boards, 4 day turnaround Same price up to 85 sq. inches. High quality boards. Just make sure you follow the rules for the "No touch" price, because they send you exactly what your Gerbers contain. |---------+-----------------------------> | | Roger Merchberger | | | | | | Sent by: | | | cctech-bounces at cla| | | ssiccmp.org | | | | | | | | | 09/07/2005 12:58 | | | PM | | | Please respond to | | | "General | | | Discussion: | | | On-Topic Posts | | | Only" | | | | |---------+-----------------------------> >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" | | cc: | | Subject: Re: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? | >---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| Rumor has it that Jeff Walther may have mentioned these words: >I imagine this topic has come up before, so my apologies in advance. > >Do folks have a recommendation for suppliers of circuit board making >materials, or a good source of such information? I got my stuff at http://www.circuitspecialists.com/ Best prices & selection I could find and they have 1/16", 1/32" and 1/64" thickness pre-sensitized photoresist boards. They even have "how-to" books for beginners on making photoresist boards & whatnot. http://www.circuitspecialists.com/prod.itml/icOid/7783 (Link to the beginners book I mentioned - I bought it and it's a very good read.) I have not yet had time to build the projects for which I purchased my shiznit, but I should be able to before Xmas, so I'll know a lot more soon... ;-) I am not affiliated with the company other than being a (so far) satisfied customer. >In fact, I have not been able to find precoated board (photoresist coated) >in the .050" thickness. So I will either need to use a liquid photoresist >or try a toner transfer system. I dunno about 0.050", but would the 1/32" thickness be close enough? (That's 0.03125" thickness, if you can believe the Winders calcaputer applet ;-) >That raises other questions. Are the Toner Transfer Systems reliable No. Especially since the toner xfer systems were designed around toner that melts around 300 deg. C... a lot of the 'microfine' toner printers melt their toner a *lot* hotter than that, and don't get good adhesion to the xfer sheets. (Most laser printers made in the last 5-8 years are all microfine toner - anything 600dpi+ will be.) The last time I tried (5+ years ago) I used 10 sheets to *finally* get one that didn't require metric buttloads of touchups with a resist pen. >If the TTS is not servicable, then I'll try the liquid photoresist. I'd say to try pre-sensitized... but that's just me. > Would it be better to simply spray on, or should I try to rig a spinner? > >Do the developer and/or stripper usually turn out to be some commonly >(cheaply) available chemical? I would prefer to avoid paying $6+ for a >small bottle if I can avoid it. One kg of ammonium persulfate will make 4 liters of etchant, and it's around $18 USD (not including shipping) - not sure if you'll be able to find it much cheaper than that, but if you do, let everyone here know! ;-) The other chemical used is ferric chloride. Hope that helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 11:09:26 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:09:26 -0400 Subject: Various Macs for Sale In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.1.2.20050912231305.033e18d8@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <431FA38F.6090607@jetnet.ab.ca> <6.2.5.1.2.20050907235048.033f7108@boff-net.dhs.org> <20050912182655.55945950.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050912205342.0680e78b.chenmel@earthlink.net> <6.2.5.1.2.20050912231305.033e18d8@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <43284B36.9010009@gmail.com> John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > I used to have a contact at Transcend (memory guys). In 2003, 30 pin, > 16MB SIMMS were about $138 U.S. per, only orderable in pairs, but they > could produce on demand. Nowadays, I have no idea, but I'm sure a few > places still have them. Waay too rich for my blood. Peace... Sridhar From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 14 11:18:13 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:18:13 -0400 Subject: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? References: Message-ID: <17192.19781.311723.270034@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Steven" == Steven R Hutchins writes: Steven> DIY is fun, but try this site for pc boards. $88. for Steven> quantity 2, double sided boards, 4 day turnaround $122 for Steven> quantity 2, 4 layer boards, 4 day turnaround Same price up to Steven> 85 sq. inches. High quality boards. Just make sure you Steven> follow the rules for the "No touch" price, because they send Steven> you exactly what your Gerbers contain. Which site? There are dozens of companies in that business. If you look in the back of any issue of EE Times, Electronic Products, etc., you will find the ads. I personally have good experience with PCB Pool (for a 4-layer board, not dense but with fine detail for surface mount parts). They are interesting in that they can accept not just Gerber files, but also Eagle CAD files, which are easier to work with if that's the tool you're using. (And a limited version of Eagle CAD is available for the download. It's pretty nice.) A lot of those outfits will do the cutting with a router to produce whatever board outline you need, which is good for stuff like SIMM boards. Gold plated fingers may be an issue, though; I haven't seen those. (Then again I wasn't looking for them.) Plain old tin plate may be ok. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 14 11:27:52 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:27:52 -0600 Subject: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? In-Reply-To: <17192.19781.311723.270034@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <17192.19781.311723.270034@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <43284F88.2090209@jetnet.ab.ca> Paul Koning wrote: > I personally have good experience with PCB Pool (for a 4-layer board, > not dense but with fine detail for surface mount parts). They are > interesting in that they can accept not just Gerber files, but also > Eagle CAD files, which are easier to work with if that's the tool > you're using. (And a limited version of Eagle CAD is available for > the download. It's pretty nice.) The only thing good about eagle is has a schematic package. I am still looking for a free PCB and a free Schematic entry program because that for me is bigger than eagle's demo size. While waiting for PCB's now may be the time to evaluate some programs before you create your sim's. Ben alias woodelf PS I remember somebody put a linux? system on a sim. If you can find that page it may help you with your design. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Sep 14 11:55:25 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:55:25 -0400 Subject: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? References: <17192.19781.311723.270034@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <43284F88.2090209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <17192.22013.447963.382403@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "woodelf" == woodelf writes: woodelf> Paul Koning wrote: >> I personally have good experience with PCB Pool (for a 4-layer >> board, not dense but with fine detail for surface mount parts). >> They are interesting in that they can accept not just Gerber >> files, but also Eagle CAD files, which are easier to work with if >> that's the tool you're using. (And a limited version of Eagle CAD >> is available for the download. It's pretty nice.) woodelf> The only thing good about eagle is has a schematic package. woodelf> I am still looking for a free PCB and a free Schematic entry woodelf> program because that for me is bigger than eagle's demo woodelf> size. Sure. That wasn't a problem for me because I bought Eagle CAD way back when, before they had the free version, so mine doesn't have the limits. For that matter, if you spend some money that is still true. I don't know about free layout tools, much less free autorouters. Are there any? (The Eagle autorouter isn't all that good but it does get the job done, and you can easily clean up its output if you think it looks too ugly.) paul From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Sep 14 12:00:41 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:00:41 -0700 Subject: IBM PC hacking References: <0IMS001I28LZXL72@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43285739.ACB8510F@msm.umr.edu> AST had the 1 millionth 6 pack in a display case in building 3, on their campus for a while, in the lobby. It was used in some sort of ceremony when it was "shipped" and then framed with a press release there. I wonder what happened to such things when AST was bought up by Samsung, and the campus sold off building by building. I'm sure that Safi, Tom, and Al, kept a lot, but there were a lot of things in those buildings like that. It would be nice to ask on the AST Alum list on yahoo groups (apologize to the... for mentioning yahoo groups, but there are a lot of AST people there). Jim Allison wrote: > I still have a AST 6pack pro in my collection of boards for PCs > along with a Dimond trackstar128 (Apple][ in a PC). Never used > either as they were collected long after their time. > > Allison From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Sep 14 12:03:34 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 13:03:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? In-Reply-To: <43284F88.2090209@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <17192.19781.311723.270034@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <43284F88.2090209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, woodelf wrote: > The only thing good about eagle is has a schematic package. > I am still looking for a free PCB and a free Schematic entry > program because that for me is bigger than eagle's demo size. While I haven't had the chance to create a PCB with these, I've used Xcircuit to draw schematics: http://xcircuit.sourceforge.net/ It can export netlists to another free program, PCB, for board layout: http://pcb.sourceforge.net/ as well as SPICE. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From sonnet at sols.ucl.ac.be Wed Sep 14 12:12:49 2005 From: sonnet at sols.ucl.ac.be (Philippe Sonnet) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:12:49 +0100 Subject: DEC logic lab leads References: <20050909003523.MAIK26967.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <02f201c5b94f$88baddf0$2301a8c0@solssilex> Here is the kind of DEC logic lab leads I have : http://www.sonnet.be/dec/computerlab.htm Are they the original ones ? Philippe ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 9:41 PM Subject: Re: DEC logic lab leads >> I've reposted the image in "manual" mode for the luddites among us ;>) ! >> >> http://www.sideslip.net/dec_lab_leads/ >> >> Jack > > This is stackable mini-banana jumpers. Decent electronic suppliers > can supply you some. > > Cheers, Wizard > From fernande at internet1.net Wed Sep 14 12:58:29 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 13:58:29 -0400 Subject: a long shot...Wanted - Canon AS-100 In-Reply-To: <20050913005030.36801.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050913005030.36801.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <432864C5.7080200@internet1.net> Chris, How about a TI PC instead? It's in good shape physically, but I have no keyboard, monitor, or software for it. I see the portable version is already on www.old-computers.com. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Chris M wrote: > I may have posted this previously. Also *always* > looking for other weirdo PC-incompatibles. Don't ask > me for a list (right now anyway). If you got something > and not sure, contact me. Moocho grassyass :). > This and other *wierdos* can be viewed at > www.old-computers.com if ya didn't know it. > From sieler at allegro.com Wed Sep 14 13:13:24 2005 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 11:13:24 -0700 Subject: Someone looking for help on HP 150, err code 0004 Message-ID: <432805D4.24901.28A9EC00@localhost> Hi, Can anyone help this user with an HP 150 problem: > But, I can't get past the pre-boot error message, > "Power-on test failed 0004" He's at: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org Apropos of his question, does anyone know of a list of HP 150 error codes? thanks, Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Wed Sep 14 14:06:29 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 15:06:29 -0400 Subject: Ardent "Titan" graphics supercomputer on Ebay... Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545E07@cpexchange.olf.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/80s-Ardent-Titan-graphics-supercomputer-orig-80K_W0QQite mZ5809156065QQcategoryZ80075QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem From vrs at msn.com Wed Sep 14 14:20:22 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:20:22 -0700 Subject: DEC logic lab leads References: <20050909003523.MAIK26967.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <02f201c5b94f$88baddf0$2301a8c0@solssilex> Message-ID: > Here is the kind of DEC logic lab leads I have : > http://www.sonnet.be/dec/computerlab.htm > Are they the original ones ? Yes, those leads match the lab they are pictured with. To avoid confusion, I suppose we should call them "Computer Labs", rather than "Logic Labs", since DEC sold an older product as a "Logic Lab". Vince From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Sep 14 14:35:50 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:35:50 +0100 Subject: datasheets for 82S21 - Signetics 32x2 SRAM? In-Reply-To: <002401c5b4c9$696db1f0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Message-ID: <001c01c5b963$8c084420$5b01a8c0@pc1> I wrote: > I found the SN7485 and SN7486 but no SN7480 (or > at least no datasheet). I still have no reason to care about the SN7480 (nor the '57 and friends that Tony mentioned later in this thread) but I gave up on the TI CDROM and looked at some paper instead. All of the above (and many more) are in the 1985 TTL databook(s). I guess TI rip out the stuff they no longer sell from their web site (and the CDs that they presumably produce from it). Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Wed Sep 14 14:45:44 2005 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 15:45:44 -0400 Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3BCEB560-D4A9-4F07-AF66-1467D0587424@mind-to-mind.com> On Sep 13, 2005, at 9:08 PM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Bigger is better. 20 NeXT Cubes and 20 'stations... and counting... I just got a pyro too... From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Wed Sep 14 15:37:23 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:37:23 -0400 Subject: Circuit Cellar TI-74 article Message-ID: All: Does anyone have a copy of the April/May 1991 issue (Issue #20) of Circuit Cellar and can scan an article for me? There's an article on using the TI-74 BASICCALC for data acquisition and control. The article, written by Ed Vogel, appears beginning on page 41. TIA. Rich From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 14 16:35:08 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:35:08 -0400 Subject: Article from OCT 1992 Macworld References: <17192.19781.311723.270034@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <43284F88.2090209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00ad01c5b974$373014d0$0500fea9@game> Anybody happen to have the OCT 1992 Issue of Macworld? Was wondering if you can scan a few pages for me of an article on Accelerators starting on page 181. Macworld -- Oct-92 a.. Accelerators -- pg. 181 a.. Performance/040 (33 MHz) b.. Radius Rocket 33 c.. TokaMac II FX 33 From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Sep 14 17:00:18 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:00:18 -0400 Subject: OT: Older Color Laser Printer Repair or replacement. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050914174201.03a1cfd0@mail.30below.com> =-=-=-= Of course: replies offlist, please!!! =-=-=-= Anyone here know boatloads about older color laser printers? Well, it's almost ontopic - the printer's 7 or 8 years old, IIRC, and it's got plusses for 'kewl-factor'. ;-) Well, it *used* to... see below. I have a QMS MagiColor 2 (CX engine) with lots of extra goodies: 112Meg RAM, 2G SCSI hard drive, *serial port*, Ethernut... and the thing just started going to Hades in a handbasket. It's always been a little flaky with paper handling, but otherwise has been ultra-reliable if you knew it's paper quirks. Now it's durned near impossible to deal with... but that's not the *big* problem. The nearly new black toner cart (less than 1000 sheets of it's 10000 sheet life) is now 'low', the nearly new magenta toner cart ( less than 500 sheets) is *out*, and I had to hack up a cyan cart with the magenta 'code insert thingy' to fool it into printing again (if any toner goes 'emtpy' the printer refuses to print) and the nearly new OPC belt ( less than 2000 of a 30000+ page lifespan) has developed several bad spots. All this seemed to happen within 100 pages or so. :-O Is the printer worth saving, or should I just drop it off my deck (10 foot drop - would be quite satisfying to see, after I strip the HD and memory out of it...)? Or does anyone want it for parts for cost of shipping? (Warning: it's a 110+ pound beastie; it would *not* be cheap to ship.) If it's not worth saving, anyone have experience with a good color laser printer? Preferably < $1000, and I want *bitchin* paper handling (read: no paper jams). Please don't say HP. ;-) The best I've found during my research so far is the Ricoh Aficio CL2000N - about $560 street price, and has oodles of options available (most of which I don't need), affordable consumables, and supposedly really good paper handling, according to the reviews I've found. Oh, and about 1/2 the weight of my current printer. Sorry for the offtopicness, but I don't know where else to turn, and I'm looking for advice from people I trust. ;-) Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 14:53:41 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 15:53:41 -0400 Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: <3BCEB560-D4A9-4F07-AF66-1467D0587424@mind-to-mind.com> References: <3BCEB560-D4A9-4F07-AF66-1467D0587424@mind-to-mind.com> Message-ID: On 9/14/05, Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote: > 20 NeXT Cubes and 20 'stations... and counting... You could build a multi-MIPS bed from all of that magnesium. ;-) -ethan (one Cube, few mono slabs...) From starmaster at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 09:25:30 2005 From: starmaster at gmail.com (Star Master) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 08:25:30 -0600 Subject: Wanted Commodore Equipment Message-ID: <5736e82505091407251ab59f8d@mail.gmail.com> If anyone has any Commodore equipment the wish to get rid of, please let me know. I will pay shipping, but limited funds prevent much else. Thank you From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 14 18:39:52 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wanted Commodore Equipment In-Reply-To: <5736e82505091407251ab59f8d@mail.gmail.com> from "Star Master" at Sep 14, 2005 08:25:30 AM Message-ID: <200509142339.j8ENdqwq029168@onyx.spiritone.com> > > If anyone has any Commodore equipment the wish to get rid of, please let me > know. I will pay shipping, but limited funds prevent much else. > Thank you > You might find that you have better luck if you note what area you can pick things up from. I'm guessing quite a few of us have items to thin out, but don't want to be bothered with shipping. Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 14 17:44:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 23:44:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 150 Touchscreen In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20050912110826.05f4fb38@mail.homepower.com> from "Michael Welch" at Sep 12, 5 11:14:26 am Message-ID: > > Hello Friends: > > Just cleaning out storage and decided to sell my one-owner HP150B. > > But first I need to make it work. It was working when I put it back in > its boxes 20 +/- years ago. > > But, I can't get past the pre-boot error message, "Power-on test > failed 0004" or sometimes "0000c". > > Anybody know these error messages? Or better yet, where I can get a > list of power-on error messages? Argh!. The user manual just says 'Contact the service representative' :-(. And the Technical Reference manual doesn't give any info on the errors at all. I susepct that what we need is the service manual, which is one of the few HP150 manuals I don't have (I've always managed with the schematics in the techref...) My first thought is that after 20 years, the battery is almost certainly flat. On the original HP150, this is, IIRC, a user-replacable battery in a plastic holder at the back. I think it's a 4.5V alkaline battery, PX21 or similar. I have no idea where you'd find one, but I do know that battery is also used in some Praktica SLR cameras, and I think it's still available somewhere. On the 150-II, the battery is a pair of soldered-in lithium cells on the PSU/sweep bnard. A right pain to get to, I can tell you... However, I doubt that a flat battery would give a power-on error. I would think you had some component failure, but I don't know what :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 14 17:48:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 23:48:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Walther" at Sep 12, 5 02:15:08 pm Message-ID: > Developer and stripper are not etchant. After applying and exposing > photoresist, one uses developer to remove the unexposed (or exposed > for positive) photoresist without affecting the exposed (or > unexposed) photoresist. After etching the excess copper away with an > etchant, the polymerized photoresist is still present on the > protected copper traces and must be removed using a stripper. Most photoresists can be 'soldered through' so it's not necessary to strip them. On the other hand, boards look a lot better if you do strip... The method I've always used is to etch the board as usual, wash it, then give it another (longer-than-normal) UV exposure with no artwork -- thus 'fogging' the remaining resist. Then pop it back in the developer and it will all strip off nicely. Remember on most photoresist boards, the bits that are exposed to UV are the bits you want to etch away (the artwork is black for the traces, etc), so the resist that's been exposed is the stuff that comes off. > > So, when using a photoresist system, one needs developer, etchant and > stripper. However, I suspect that the stripper, at least, may be > some commonly available chemical such as acetone. And I believe that > Tony mentioned that developer is usually just a strong alkalai. It's actally not _that_ strong. Strong enough to feel 'soapy' (it hydrolyses the fats in your fingers), but not strong enough to cause an alkali burn in my experience. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 14 18:01:09 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 00:01:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <432772C0.4C7A923C@msm.umr.edu> from "jim stephens" at Sep 13, 5 05:45:53 pm Message-ID: > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I remember a little shop here in Santa Ana which had the first clone of > > > the IBM PC. It was a single board which had 640k memory, allowed > > > using 64k memories, instead of the 16K memory that the PC and XT > > > earlier models used. > > > > DId any IBM PC/ST motherboards use 16K DRAMs. Yes, I know the standard > > memory mapping PROM could be set up to use 4 rows of 4816s (64K o nthe > > mainboard), but did IBM ever do that? There's no mention of it in my TechRef. > > > > You may be right, I think due to fog bank between ears that it was 16k in > apple ][ then 64k in original xt, then 256k in the superboard. IIRC, early PCs used 16K DRAMs (1 row soldered, sockets for 3 more, so 16K .. 64K on the mainboard) Later PCs used 64K DRAMs, so 64K .. 256K on the mainboard. PC/XTs also used 64K DRAMs, and from what I've seen all 4 rows were socketed. There's a well-knwon modification, I am sure everyone here knows it, to put 2 rows of 256K and 2 rows of 64K on the PC/XT mainboard for the full 640K. This was later sort-of supported by IBM, my TechRef has an entry for the 256K to 640K system board. Early PC/AT machines used those special IBM piggyback 128K 'chips'. Up to 512K on the mainboard, you could flip a jumper if you only wanted 256K. Later PC/AT boards used 256K DRAMs, again 512K on the mainboard. The jumper is still present, flipping it wastes half of each IC (you still have to have all 18 chips fitted, it's a 16 bit data bus + parity on each byte). I _think_ the PC/XT-286 had 4 off 64K*4 and 2 off 64K * 1 DRAMs on the mainboard for 128K RAM and then SIMM sockets for 2 256K * 9 30 pin SIMMs. > > > > > > The PC used either EProms, (16K I think) and the Roms that were > > > shipped with the BIOS were registered. The standard Data I/O would > > > > Do you mean there were internal data latches in the IBM ROMs? > > > > Yes, as I understand it and saw, the roms could be enabled, using a > line that the data I/O didn't drive (29b variety any did not). So you got > FF out when you read them. I can believe there were some odd enables on those ROMs, but I wasn't aware of any internal latches. I will have a look again. > > > > > > not read them since they were not programmable, and needed their > > > output enabled to read the data. > > > > > > But once someone had them in the 2716's, it was easy to get them > > > running in your superboard. > > > > Surely it was trivial to use DEBUG or similar to dump the appropriate > > area of memory to disk... > > > > Yes the dump was trivial, but the R232 or other to an eprom programmer > was not. When I built by first microcontroller system (around this time), I had to build my ownEPROM programmer and emulator. 3 wire-wrapped boards of TTL, distretes, a UART, etc. Plugged into an RS232 port. I couldn't, of course, use a microprocessor in the programmer, since there was the obvious bootstrap problem of how would I program the firmware for that? If you could dismantle the PC far enough to pull the ROMs to attempt to read them out in your programmer, then surely you could have added a homebrew serial card or similar. A real kludge would have been to use a couple of printer port cards (which would give you 24 output lines) and a little external circuitry to program an EPROM. These EPROMs were not hard to program 'by hand'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 14 18:03:30 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 00:03:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <20050913174342.Y3526@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 13, 5 05:46:51 pm Message-ID: > Later, they switched to one row of 64K DRAMs soldered in, with sockets for > another three rows. Some (all?) of those motherboards could be trivially > modified to take 2 rows of 64K plus two rows of 256K. I can't rememebr if the PC 64K to 256K board has the socket for the extra address mux chip, etc, but I think it doesn't. All IBM PC/XT boards that I've seen can be modified to take 2 rows of 256K chips. And on all the boards I've seen, all 4 rows of RAM are socketed, so it's easy to replace rows 0 and 1 with said 256K chips. Then just plug in the 'S158 (or 'F158), solder the jumper and go. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 14 18:04:38 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 00:04:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Sep 13, 5 06:08:26 pm Message-ID: > > More seriously, the important thing is not that you've got a bigger > > collection than me (which you certainly have), but that somebody has > > preserved these machines, and that we all enjoy the machines that we each > > own... > > Bigger is better. I truely pity anyone who is only interested in having the biggest collection and has no other real interest in the machines themselves. I am darn sure, from what you write here, that this does not apply to you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 14 18:10:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 00:10:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <20050913215917.0c1e8744.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Sep 13, 5 09:59:17 pm Message-ID: > Just to add more lore: And I'll add some more, I still use such machines... > The floppy controller and floppy drive were very optional on the early > PC, and a rather pricey option. There was a cassette cable for less The cassette port pinout ios the same as that for a TRS-80 (M1, M3, M4, M100, CoCo, etc) (and for that matter a Dragon). The same cable works with both. > wealthy users. And on any IBM machine up to the late XT era, if you > boot it up with no disk in the A drive or no floppy hardware at all > installed, it will boot into 'cassette basic'. (does anybody know if the > PC-AT had cassette basic resident in ROM?) My PC Convertable will do Yes it does. AFAIK all IBM PC, PC/XT, PortablePC (which is the same mainboard as the PC/XT) and PC/AT machines have ROM BASIC. I am typing this on a much hacked 8MHz IBM PC/AT, and it has BASIC in ROM. > so. Sadly, you can't save or load anything into 'Cassette Basic' on the > Convertable or models later than the PC as there's no cassette > interface. I wonder if anybody has ever 'back ported' the Cassette port > to an ISA bus card?? (not that it would help on the PC Convertable, of > course. >From what I remember, cassette I/O is handled via one of the software INTs (INT 15, maybe, I can check). The routines are only present in the PC BIOS, on all later machines, the routines return (maybe setting an error flag, I forget). But there would be no reason that a BIOS extension ROM couldn't intercept this INT vector and perform suitable I/O, either to a cassette recorder or to, say, a paper tape punch/reader. I have sort-of thought about making an ISA card for the latter with the necessary ROM on it, but I haven't got a round tuit. -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 14 19:01:37 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:01:37 -0400 Subject: eBay References: Message-ID: <00f901c5b988$a47acfd0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 7:04 PM Subject: Re: eBay >> > I truely pity anyone who is only interested in having the biggest > collection and has no other real interest in the machines themselves. I > am darn sure, from what you write here, that this does not apply to you. > > -tony I feel the same way. You can spot the people who only care about the biggest collection because they have very little in the way of hardware upgrades, software, magazines, and manuals in their collection (since they don't usually turn them on). From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Sep 14 19:04:07 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:04:07 -0400 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: References: <432772C0.4C7A923C@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050914195905.040452c0@mail.earthlink.net> the original IBM PC Bios was a Motorola 24 pin ROM. In the early days, I used a 28 pin socket and wired to a 24 pin header to be able to modify the bios and use a standard 28 pin EPROM for changes. There were no latches in the ROM. It was probably cheaper for IBM to get a masked ROM then to use EPROMs which were relatively expensive for the quantity they were buiding. There was no EPROM equivalent for the Motorola chip. best regards, Steve Thatcher > > > > > > > The PC used either EProms, (16K I think) and the Roms that were > > > > shipped with the BIOS were registered. The standard Data I/O would > > > > > > Do you mean there were internal data latches in the IBM ROMs? > > > > > > > Yes, as I understand it and saw, the roms could be enabled, using a > > line that the data I/O didn't drive (29b variety any did not). So you got > > FF out when you read them. > >I can believe there were some odd enables on those ROMs, but I wasn't >aware of any internal latches. I will have a look again. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Sep 14 19:19:30 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:19:30 -0700 Subject: IBM PC hacking References: Message-ID: <4328BE12.26042D3A@msm.umr.edu> > > > If you could dismantle the PC far enough to pull the ROMs to attempt to > read them out in your programmer, then surely you could have added a > homebrew serial card or similar. > > A real kludge would have been to use a couple of printer port cards > (which would give you 24 output lines) and a little external circuitry to > program an EPROM. These EPROMs were not hard to program 'by hand'. > > -tony the problem is not that obvious when pc's are everywhere. I read the data onto a floppy on said PC. I did not own the programmer, so transfering it via RS232 was not that useful. I could run a program and jam it into a mini that I had (remember no nifty c or basic to process the data on the PC to prep it for even Data I./O format) The Data I/O's we had didn't have published or supported RS232 at the time. This was a nasty and expensive option that was driven from mini's or mainframes and most places had the programmer, with nothing hooked to them. Everyone operated with a master "library" of parts stuck in conductive foam, taped to a description of what was on the part, revisions, p/n's when released and all that crap. The fellows I worked with, who were the hardware enlightend made their own programmer with an old disk controller (with 6802) providing the intelligence and memory to support the programming. As the system did not have the proper programming voltage, there was a small HP lab supply fixed to the programming voltage. It could have been used to move the data to 2732's I guess, but I didn't have a way to get data into that system, as it again relied on reading a source part, and programming a blank. Jim From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Sep 14 19:22:29 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 01:22:29 +0100 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4328BEC5.3090000@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: > I am typing > this on a much hacked 8MHz IBM PC/AT, and it has BASIC in ROM. What *exactly* are you using here? Gordon. From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 14 20:39:00 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Suggestions for a mini? Message-ID: <20050914182517.D777@fiche.wps.com> I'd like to solicit suggestions for a mini... I have this Nova 4, http://wps.com/NOVA4, but it's taking up too much space, physical and psychic. I do want a mini-era machine, and after some thought, I worked out what I'd like to get from one. What I want is a basic stripped machine, with CRT console and high-speed paper tape reader, and a low-speed punch (this last is variable), and standlone utilities. It must have a front panel. I've used such on two platforms (Varian 622/i, Nova 1200) and it's precisely the sort of (relatively) low-maintenance, high-geek vintage experience I want. So I'd like to trade my kilopound of DG gear, documentation, tapes, fiche, etc for about 100 lbs of minicomputer. I'd prefer a DG Nova, General Automation, Varian, or other non-DEC brand. (No offense to DECcies, I have a strong preference for off the beaten path.) Even or especially one-off oddball or unpopular, or slow, or ugly machines. Off models, step-cousin machines etc. Poorly optioned (eg. math or fancy interfaces). Something like (but of course unlikely to be sucha popular model): Nova 1200 16 or 32k words tty port ptp/ptr port lpt port or equiv I have generic high-speed paper tape readers, serial interface. I don't care if peripheral brands match. It would be nice to have reel tape support. Any suggestions on interesting and obtainable machines? From gilcarrick at comcast.net Wed Sep 14 20:42:25 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:42:25 -0500 Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200509150151.j8F1pt2t020879@keith.ezwind.net> > > Bigger is better. The way it is said these days is "size matters." Gil From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 14 20:43:42 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:43:42 -0600 Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: <200509150151.j8F1pt2t020879@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200509150151.j8F1pt2t020879@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4328D1CE.6070809@jetnet.ab.ca> Gil Carrick wrote: > The way it is said these days is "size matters." But alas 99.99% is for PORN SPAM ... not puters. Runs and ducks ... > Gil PS. Also just reading the NOVA posting, does anybody ship big iron now days? From gilcarrick at comcast.net Wed Sep 14 21:09:18 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:09:18 -0500 Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: <00f901c5b988$a47acfd0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <200509150218.j8F2IjuC021152@keith.ezwind.net> > I feel the same way. You can spot the people who only care > about the biggest > collection because they have very little in the way of > hardware upgrades, > software, magazines, and manuals in their collection (since they don't > usually turn them on). I have been thinking about this question the last couple of days, and I just want to share a slightly different point of view. I teach Computer Science at a University, and being a pack rat of long standing, convinced our then chairman to let me start a "computer museum" so I could clean out my garage, closets, attic, study, etc. In this environment there is merit in older machines, even if they don't run. One of my favorite items, and one that gets the attention of the students, is a voice coil magnet out of an unknown drive. It weighs about 60 pounds, IIRC. (http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/Whazat.html) I tell them that it was in a drive about the size of a washing machine and that held no more than 100 MB & probably much less. Then I contrast that with a 2.5 inch drive that holds perhaps 10s of GBs and weighs only a few ounces, certainly runs faster and costs less than whatever drive the magnet came out of - heck, probably less than the magnet! Similarly I have a magnetic core plane that gives new meaning to the terms "core dump" and "non-volatile memory" for these students and a tube circuit out of a IBM 709 (or 704 - not sure which) which I show with a copy of an IBM adv. that talks about such tube circuits and the machines that incorporated them. If I had a 709 here there is no way I could run it for even 10 minutes. No power (don't even know what kind), no A.C., no raised floor, ... . Does that mean that it is unreasonable to want to have such a machine here? I would love it. I might only be able to display a part of it at a time, but it would be very educational to compare it to cell phones which certainly have more power, etc. So for me, bigger is better. The more stuff I have, the more I can help give perspective to the visitors who have no comprehension of what it means to say that disk drive technology has improved something like 6 orders of magnitude since they were introduced. I am collecting lots of stuff. I don't have time to turn them all on and mess around with them (though I would love to.) I think it is important to archive this stuff before it goes away and work on finding means to insure the continuance of the collection. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 14 21:16:20 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > More seriously, the important thing is not that you've got a bigger > > > collection than me (which you certainly have), but that somebody has > > > preserved these machines, and that we all enjoy the machines that we each > > > own... > > > > Bigger is better. > > I truely pity anyone who is only interested in having the biggest > collection and has no other real interest in the machines themselves. I > am darn sure, from what you write here, that this does not apply to you. Who says I was talking about my computer collection? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Sep 14 21:19:42 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 22:19:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Who says I was talking about my computer collection? OK, who did NOT see that coming? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Sep 14 21:38:39 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 22:38:39 -0400 Subject: Suggestions for a mini? References: <20050914182517.D777@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <002101c5b99e$a1a6c640$0100a8c0@screamer> Cooper S, Hyper blue, with the sports package. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 9:39 PM Subject: Suggestions for a mini? > I'd like to solicit suggestions for a mini... > > I have this Nova 4, http://wps.com/NOVA4, but it's taking up too > much space, physical and psychic. I do want a mini-era machine, > and after some thought, I worked out what I'd like to get from > one. > > What I want is a basic stripped machine, with CRT console and > high-speed paper tape reader, and a low-speed punch (this last is > variable), and standlone utilities. It must have a front panel. > > I've used such on two platforms (Varian 622/i, Nova 1200) and it's > precisely the sort of (relatively) low-maintenance, high-geek > vintage experience I want. > > > So I'd like to trade my kilopound of DG gear, documentation, > tapes, fiche, etc for about 100 lbs of minicomputer. > > I'd prefer a DG Nova, General Automation, Varian, or other non-DEC > brand. (No offense to DECcies, I have a strong preference for off > the beaten path.) > > Even or especially one-off oddball or unpopular, or slow, or ugly > machines. Off models, step-cousin machines etc. Poorly optioned > (eg. math or fancy interfaces). > > Something like (but of course unlikely to be sucha popular model): > > Nova 1200 > 16 or 32k words > tty port > ptp/ptr port > lpt port or equiv > > I have generic high-speed paper tape readers, serial interface. I > don't care if peripheral brands match. > > It would be nice to have reel tape support. > > Any suggestions on interesting and obtainable machines? > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 14 21:50:14 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Suggestions for a mini? In-Reply-To: <002101c5b99e$a1a6c640$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <20050914182517.D777@fiche.wps.com> <002101c5b99e$a1a6c640$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <20050914194827.H56983@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > Cooper S, Hyper blue, with the sports package. an original VINTAGE Cooper S, NOT a BMW. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 14 21:50:48 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 22:50:48 -0400 Subject: Suggestions for a mini? In-Reply-To: <002101c5b99e$a1a6c640$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <20050914182517.D777@fiche.wps.com> <002101c5b99e$a1a6c640$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <4328E188.7050402@gmail.com> Bob Shannon wrote: > Cooper S, Hyper blue, with the sports package. I was thinking of saying something to the effect of "'66 Lambo Miura". Peace... Sridhar > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 9:39 PM > Subject: Suggestions for a mini? > > >> I'd like to solicit suggestions for a mini... >> >> I have this Nova 4, http://wps.com/NOVA4, but it's taking up too >> much space, physical and psychic. I do want a mini-era machine, >> and after some thought, I worked out what I'd like to get from >> one. >> >> What I want is a basic stripped machine, with CRT console and >> high-speed paper tape reader, and a low-speed punch (this last is >> variable), and standlone utilities. It must have a front panel. >> >> I've used such on two platforms (Varian 622/i, Nova 1200) and it's >> precisely the sort of (relatively) low-maintenance, high-geek >> vintage experience I want. >> >> >> So I'd like to trade my kilopound of DG gear, documentation, >> tapes, fiche, etc for about 100 lbs of minicomputer. >> >> I'd prefer a DG Nova, General Automation, Varian, or other non-DEC >> brand. (No offense to DECcies, I have a strong preference for off >> the beaten path.) >> >> Even or especially one-off oddball or unpopular, or slow, or ugly >> machines. Off models, step-cousin machines etc. Poorly optioned >> (eg. math or fancy interfaces). >> >> Something like (but of course unlikely to be sucha popular model): >> >> Nova 1200 >> 16 or 32k words >> tty port >> ptp/ptr port >> lpt port or equiv >> >> I have generic high-speed paper tape readers, serial interface. I >> don't care if peripheral brands match. >> >> It would be nice to have reel tape support. >> >> Any suggestions on interesting and obtainable machines? >> >> > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Sep 14 21:58:55 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:58:55 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for a mini? In-Reply-To: <20050914194827.H56983@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050914182517.D777@fiche.wps.com> <002101c5b99e$a1a6c640$0100a8c0@screamer> <20050914194827.H56983@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1126753135.7619.2.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2005-09-14 at 19:50 -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > > Cooper S, Hyper blue, with the sports package. > > an original VINTAGE Cooper S, NOT a BMW. You mean like this? http://www.shiresoft.com/cars/mini-front.jpg It's even the "right" endian!! :-) -- TTFN - Guy From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Sep 14 22:02:24 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 23:02:24 -0400 Subject: Suggestions for a mini? Message-ID: <0IMU00LMV8ETEUG1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Nah, A bug eyed sprite will do nicely. If all else fails a Cincinati Milichron 2000. Extremely rare and last I'd seen one was around '74. Allison > >Subject: Re: Suggestions for a mini? > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 22:50:48 -0400 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Bob Shannon wrote: >> Cooper S, Hyper blue, with the sports package. > >I was thinking of saying something to the effect of "'66 Lambo Miura". > >Peace... Sridhar > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 9:39 PM >> Subject: Suggestions for a mini? >> >> >>> I'd like to solicit suggestions for a mini... >>> >>> I have this Nova 4, http://wps.com/NOVA4, but it's taking up too >>> much space, physical and psychic. I do want a mini-era machine, >>> and after some thought, I worked out what I'd like to get from >>> one. >>> >>> What I want is a basic stripped machine, with CRT console and >>> high-speed paper tape reader, and a low-speed punch (this last is >>> variable), and standlone utilities. It must have a front panel. >>> >>> I've used such on two platforms (Varian 622/i, Nova 1200) and it's >>> precisely the sort of (relatively) low-maintenance, high-geek >>> vintage experience I want. >>> >>> >>> So I'd like to trade my kilopound of DG gear, documentation, >>> tapes, fiche, etc for about 100 lbs of minicomputer. >>> >>> I'd prefer a DG Nova, General Automation, Varian, or other non-DEC >>> brand. (No offense to DECcies, I have a strong preference for off >>> the beaten path.) >>> >>> Even or especially one-off oddball or unpopular, or slow, or ugly >>> machines. Off models, step-cousin machines etc. Poorly optioned >>> (eg. math or fancy interfaces). >>> >>> Something like (but of course unlikely to be sucha popular model): >>> >>> Nova 1200 >>> 16 or 32k words >>> tty port >>> ptp/ptr port >>> lpt port or equiv >>> >>> I have generic high-speed paper tape readers, serial interface. I >>> don't care if peripheral brands match. >>> >>> It would be nice to have reel tape support. >>> >>> Any suggestions on interesting and obtainable machines? >>> >>> >> >> From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Wed Sep 14 22:28:22 2005 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 23:28:22 -0400 Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: References: <3BCEB560-D4A9-4F07-AF66-1467D0587424@mind-to-mind.com> Message-ID: On Sep 14, 2005, at 3:53 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/14/05, Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote: > >> 20 NeXT Cubes and 20 'stations... and counting... >> > > You could build a multi-MIPS bed from all of that magnesium. ;-) Yes... except the funky power/video/keyboard thing. One thing really want to do is make a keyboard, video and mouse converter for the NeXT. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 14 22:34:24 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Suggestions for a mini? In-Reply-To: <1126753135.7619.2.camel@linux.site> References: <20050914182517.D777@fiche.wps.com> <002101c5b99e$a1a6c640$0100a8c0@screamer> <20050914194827.H56983@shell.lmi.net> <1126753135.7619.2.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <20050914201548.G56983@shell.lmi.net> > > an original VINTAGE Cooper S, NOT a BMW. > On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > You mean like this? > http://www.shiresoft.com/cars/mini-front.jpg > It's even the "right" endian!! :-) Although it's an Austin, instead of a Cooper, I much prefer this rear door configuration for loading computers: http://minisale.elude.ca/1975-Morris-Mini-Van http://minisale.elude.ca/1975-Morris-Mini-Van/scotlandandcars_068 About 40 years ago, Japan had a licensing classification called a Mini Car. Some engineers at Honda took the S600/S800 (dual overhad cam 500cc/800cc) design, and built a few with a 359cc engine, and rear bobbed to fit the legal requirements, thus creating the hottest "360" ever made. The Japanese guvmint promptly changed the rules to prevent that sort of abuse. The T360 would also make a good computer collector's vehicle. http://www.hondasportsregistry.com/brochures/brochs360t360s500.php http://world.honda.com/history/challenge/1962autoproduction/ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 14 22:51:34 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:51:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Sep 14, 5 07:16:20 pm" Message-ID: <200509150351.UAA16500@floodgap.com> > > I truely pity anyone who is only interested in having the biggest > > collection and has no other real interest in the machines themselves. I > > am darn sure, from what you write here, that this does not apply to you. > > Who says I was talking about my computer collection? Man, you wound him up good ;) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You are not ready! --------------------------------------------------------- From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 14 22:56:41 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 22:56:41 -0500 Subject: eBay References: <200509150151.j8F1pt2t020879@keith.ezwind.net> <4328D1CE.6070809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00b001c5b9a9$7bce0cc0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > PS. Also just reading the NOVA posting, does anybody > ship big iron now days? Are you asking for suggestions of shippers? Or are collectors still shipping heavy systems? I'll assume the latter, and the answer is "most definitely", I still do :) Jay From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Sep 14 22:59:50 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:59:50 -0700 Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: <4328D1CE.6070809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200509150151.j8F1pt2t020879@keith.ezwind.net> <4328D1CE.6070809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Is that price typical for a NOVA 4? I guess not, or it would be "Buy it now"ed by now. Eric On 9/14/05, woodelf wrote: > > Gil Carrick wrote: > > > The way it is said these days is "size matters." > But alas 99.99% is for PORN SPAM ... not puters. > Runs and ducks ... > > Gil > PS. Also just reading the NOVA posting, does anybody > ship big iron now days? > > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Sep 14 22:59:50 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:59:50 -0700 Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: <4328D1CE.6070809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200509150151.j8F1pt2t020879@keith.ezwind.net> <4328D1CE.6070809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Is that price typical for a NOVA 4? I guess not, or it would be "Buy it now"ed by now. Eric On 9/14/05, woodelf wrote: > > Gil Carrick wrote: > > > The way it is said these days is "size matters." > But alas 99.99% is for PORN SPAM ... not puters. > Runs and ducks ... > > Gil > PS. Also just reading the NOVA posting, does anybody > ship big iron now days? > > > From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 14 22:51:13 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:51:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Suggestions for a mini? In-Reply-To: <002101c5b99e$a1a6c640$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <20050914182517.D777@fiche.wps.com> <002101c5b99e$a1a6c640$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <20050914204956.D1142@fiche.wps.com> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > Cooper S, Hyper blue, with the sports package. Umm... OK... yeah... I'll trade my Nova for your Mini. If it's not a bother.... I'll even pick it up... > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 9:39 PM > Subject: Suggestions for a mini? > > >> I'd like to solicit suggestions for a mini... >> >> I have this Nova 4, http://wps.com/NOVA4, but it's taking up too >> much space, physical and psychic. I do want a mini-era machine, >> and after some thought, I worked out what I'd like to get from >> one. >> >> What I want is a basic stripped machine, with CRT console and >> high-speed paper tape reader, and a low-speed punch (this last is >> variable), and standlone utilities. It must have a front panel. >> >> I've used such on two platforms (Varian 622/i, Nova 1200) and it's >> precisely the sort of (relatively) low-maintenance, high-geek >> vintage experience I want. >> >> >> So I'd like to trade my kilopound of DG gear, documentation, >> tapes, fiche, etc for about 100 lbs of minicomputer. >> >> I'd prefer a DG Nova, General Automation, Varian, or other non-DEC >> brand. (No offense to DECcies, I have a strong preference for off >> the beaten path.) >> >> Even or especially one-off oddball or unpopular, or slow, or ugly >> machines. Off models, step-cousin machines etc. Poorly optioned >> (eg. math or fancy interfaces). >> >> Something like (but of course unlikely to be sucha popular model): >> >> Nova 1200 >> 16 or 32k words >> tty port >> ptp/ptr port >> lpt port or equiv >> >> I have generic high-speed paper tape readers, serial interface. I >> don't care if peripheral brands match. >> >> It would be nice to have reel tape support. >> >> Any suggestions on interesting and obtainable machines? >> >> > From recycler at swbell.net Wed Sep 14 23:24:09 2005 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 23:24:09 -0500 Subject: old PCs and CGA monitors, more etc free Message-ID: <4328F769.60801@swbell.net> you pick up in Dallas; south oak cliff. Have several compaq luggables, a couple of TI professional computers, a bunch of CGA and some EGA monitors, several PC XT 286 386 deskpros, sanyo PC, etc, also a few remaining oldies like a DEC LP01 line printer, the first DEC line printer, and a vaxmate, and some rainbow softeware, PC parts, NOS 5.25 disks, an old fairchild video game console, ad nauseum, etc.. just bring a bobtail truck. Winner (must) take all. all free, otherwise soon it must go out to the bad place. lab must be clear soon. 214-763-4764 Patrick From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 14 23:27:10 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:27:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > Who says I was talking about my computer collection? > > OK, who did NOT see that coming? Only the foolish :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From recycler at swbell.net Wed Sep 14 23:52:09 2005 From: recycler at swbell.net (Patrick Jankowiak) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 23:52:09 -0500 Subject: Wanted Commodore Equipment In-Reply-To: <5736e82505091407251ab59f8d@mail.gmail.com> References: <5736e82505091407251ab59f8d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4328FDF9.4020909@swbell.net> I cannot ship the huge pile of Commodore gear. If you can get to Dallas Texas, or have someone pick it up for you, you can have it. It's ehough to mostly fill up a pickup truck bed. systems, disk drives, etc.. in various conditions, these were rescued from an estate, but must go. Patrick 214-763-4764 Star Master wrote: > If anyone has any Commodore equipment the wish to get rid of, please let me > know. I will pay shipping, but limited funds prevent much else. > Thank you > From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Sep 15 00:01:41 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 22:01:41 -0700 Subject: Circuit Cellar TI-74 article In-Reply-To: (Richard Cini's message of "Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:37:23 -0400") References: Message-ID: <200509150501.j8F51fGG067881@lots.reanimators.org> Richard Cini wrote: > Does anyone have a copy of the April/May 1991 issue (Issue #20) of Circuit > Cellar and can scan an article for me? There's an article on using the TI-74 > BASICCALC for data acquisition and control. The article, written by Ed > Vogel, appears beginning on page 41. Would you believe, the Circuit Cellar folks do? -Frank McConnell From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Sep 15 00:06:46 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 22:06:46 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for a mini? In-Reply-To: <20050914201548.G56983@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050914182517.D777@fiche.wps.com> <002101c5b99e$a1a6c640$0100a8c0@screamer> <20050914194827.H56983@shell.lmi.net> <1126753135.7619.2.camel@linux.site> <20050914201548.G56983@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1126760806.7619.7.camel@linux.site> On Wed, 2005-09-14 at 20:34 -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > an original VINTAGE Cooper S, NOT a BMW. > > > On Wed, 14 Sep 2005, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > You mean like this? > > http://www.shiresoft.com/cars/mini-front.jpg > > It's even the "right" endian!! :-) > > Although it's an Austin, instead of a Cooper, I much prefer this rear door > configuration for loading computers: Umm, it *is* a Cooper...an Austin Mini Cooper. The full designation for that particular car is Austin Mini Cooper Sports Pack SPi (sometimes also known as a Mark V). ...and this is *way* off topic! :-) > http://minisale.elude.ca/1975-Morris-Mini-Van > http://minisale.elude.ca/1975-Morris-Mini-Van/scotlandandcars_068 > -- TTFN - Guy From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Thu Sep 15 03:01:28 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:01:28 +1200 Subject: eBay References: <200509150218.j8F2IjuC021152@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <08c501c5b9cb$ad7eb8b0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gil Carrick" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 2:09 PM Subject: RE: eBay >> I feel the same way. You can spot the people who only care >> about the biggest >> collection because they have very little in the way of >> hardware upgrades, >> software, magazines, and manuals in their collection (since they >> don't >> usually turn them on). > > I have been thinking about this question the last couple of days, > and I just > want to share a slightly different point of view. I teach Computer > Science > at a University, and being a pack rat of long standing, convinced > our then > chairman to let me start a "computer museum" so I could clean out my > garage, > closets, attic, study, etc. In this environment there is merit in > older > machines, even if they don't run. One of my favorite items, and one > that > gets the attention of the students, is a voice coil magnet out of an > unknown > drive. It weighs about 60 pounds, IIRC. > (http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/Whazat.html) > > I tell them that it was in a drive about the size of a washing > machine SNIP************ Hi Gil- They certainly were that big! At one time I had ten of them in the back yard here for a couple of months while I worked on them-huge washing machine type drives. That voice coil assy on you web page is something I well remember - probably used in may different drives but they are identical to the ones in the CDC (Control Data Corp) drives I 'rendered down' about 20 years ago. I still have two or three of the centre pole pieces (great door stops) and a few of the permanent magnet pieces (they were in three 120 degree segments I think) from the VC drives. Had an identical VC to the one in the picture as well till quite recently. There's still some docs round here somewhere for those drives. They were ex an ICL system-can't recall the model. Cheers DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.25/102 - Release Date: 14/09/2005 From holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de Thu Sep 15 03:30:58 2005 From: holger.veit at ais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:30:58 +0200 Subject: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43293142.9060708@ais.fraunhofer.de> Tony Duell wrote: > >Most photoresists can be 'soldered through' so it's not necessary to >strip them. On the other hand, boards look a lot better if you do strip... > > Besides better look, you'd better strip it in case you want to solder SMDs. >The method I've always used is to etch the board as usual, wash it, then >give it another (longer-than-normal) UV exposure with no artwork -- thus >'fogging' the remaining resist. Then pop it back in the developer and it >will all strip off nicely. Remember on most photoresist boards, the bits >that are exposed to UV are the bits you want to etch away (the artwork is >black for the traces, etc), so the resist that's been exposed is the >stuff that comes off. > > I am wondering what you have against a stripper like acetone. I have even used nail varnish remover in the past which contains acetone, but unfortunately also some soap (which is not bad) but also some hand-friendly oils and perfumes, which then require another cleaning with water. >>So, when using a photoresist system, one needs developer, etchant and >>stripper. However, I suspect that the stripper, at least, may be >>some commonly available chemical such as acetone. And I believe that >>Tony mentioned that developer is usually just a strong alkalai. >> >> > >It's actally not _that_ strong. Strong enough to feel 'soapy' (it >hydrolyses the fats in your fingers), but not strong enough to cause an >alkali burn in my experience. > > > Infact, sodium hydroxide is not strong in the concentrations used for developping. The recipe I remember is 7 grams NaOH in 1 litre of water. One can use normal rubber gloves (as used for cleaning puroses) if one is afraid to touch the developer. I tried higher concentrations than 7g of NaOH but this will likely attack also the unexposed traces - you'll unfortunately encounter this during etching :-( Regards Holger From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Sep 15 03:32:23 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (birs23 at zeelandnet.nl) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:32:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Arix 800 info wanted Message-ID: <55638.127.0.0.1.1126773143.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Hi, Can anyone supply me with any information about the Arix 800 ? Any information about the company itself is also very much welcome! Looking for things like specs, first released, cpu, memory, origin etc Thanks! Stefan. From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Thu Sep 15 03:37:42 2005 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (GManuel (GMC)) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 04:37:42 -0400 Subject: Looking for IBM PC/XT/AT technical references In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Beaudry [mailto:richard.beaudry at gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 3:06 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Looking for IBM PC/XT/AT technical references > > > Hello all, > > My latest "refocusing" of the collection is on IBM PC hardware > (PC/XT/AT, original IBM cards, peripherals, etc.) and on software IBM > sold for the PC line. In line with this, I'm also very interested in > any technical manuals IBM produced. Is there any particular types of sofrtware that you are interested in or is it just the tech stuff? I have a couple of games and some other productivity stuff they sold for the PC XT back in the day (Pre-AT)under their Badge complete with Binders and Manuals and Media. For instance, I have an original set for IBM's PC Storyboard. This was a precursor to programs like PowerPoint and I used it back in 1986 or so to make "Multimedia" Presentations before Multimedia was a buzzword lol. It could use graphics and text and had several transitional wipes for moving from slide to slide and such. I believe it was a CGA only program even with the "full" 4 color pallette. lol Greg Manuel www.gmconsulting.net > So far my meager technical manual collection is: > > 1. Guide to operations (PC, XT, AT) > 2. Technical Reference (XT, AT) > 3. Hardware Maintenance and Service (XT, AT) > > All of the above are originals, and the AT Maintenance set includes > diagnostics from 1.01 to 1.05 along with loopback testers, and what > looks like a 10-BASE2 terminator (or maybe Arcnet??). > > I'd like to get: > > 1. Technical Reference (PC) > 2. Hardware Maintenance and Service (PC) > > Original, copies, or scans will do ... > > Also, I'm wondering what other technical manuals exist. I know there > is an "options and adapters" series, but what else is there? > > Oh, and if anyone is junking a PC-1 (black power supply, 16-64KB > motherboard), I'll take it :-) > > Thanks for pointers, > Rich B. > > > > ==> See forgotten passwords befind **** asterisks: www.SeePassword.com From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Sep 15 06:07:35 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:07:35 +0100 Subject: OT: Rescued oily classics, was Re: Suggestions for a mini? In-Reply-To: <0IMU00LMV8ETEUG1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IMU00LMV8ETEUG1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <432955F7.8050507@gjcp.net> Allison wrote: > Nah, > > A bug eyed sprite will do nicely. > There were a couple at a classic car garage that was closing down, unfinished projects. More MGBs (chrome and rubber bumpers) than I've ever seen altogether. I rescued a '74 Scimitar, and I wish I had the money and space to rescue more. There were some cracking old cars there, mostly UK and European, but one or two yank tanks. Sadly, most of them went to the fraggie. The NSU Ro80 I had my eye on had gone before I could do anything about it. When was the last time *you* saw an Austin Atlantic? Gordon. From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Thu Sep 15 06:48:35 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 07:48:35 -0400 Subject: Circuit Cellar TI-74 article Message-ID: That's the second place I looked. I checked out Dave Tweed's on-line archive first. However "free" is indeed cheaper than $29 for the CD or $5 for the individual issue, from which I only want that article. If no one has it, that I will break-down and purchase the CD. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Frank McConnell Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 1:02 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Circuit Cellar TI-74 article Richard Cini wrote: > Does anyone have a copy of the April/May 1991 issue (Issue #20) of Circuit > Cellar and can scan an article for me? There's an article on using the TI-74 > BASICCALC for data acquisition and control. The article, written by Ed > Vogel, appears beginning on page 41. Would you believe, the Circuit Cellar folks do? -Frank McConnell From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 15 07:41:23 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 08:41:23 -0400 Subject: OT: Rescued oily classics, was Re: Suggestions for a mini? Message-ID: <0IMU00042Z7NF350@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: OT: Rescued oily classics, was Re: Suggestions for a mini? > From: Gordon JC Pearce > Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:07:35 +0100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >> Nah, >> >> A bug eyed sprite will do nicely. >> > >There were a couple at a classic car garage that was closing down, >unfinished projects. More MGBs (chrome and rubber bumpers) than I've >ever seen altogether. I rescued a '74 Scimitar, and I wish I had the >money and space to rescue more. There were some cracking old cars >there, mostly UK and European, but one or two yank tanks. > >Sadly, most of them went to the fraggie. The NSU Ro80 I had my eye on >had gone before I could do anything about it. > >When was the last time *you* saw an Austin Atlantic? > >Gordon. It's been a whole lotta years. the owner was a 6'3" guy too. Allison From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 15 07:49:19 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 08:49:19 -0400 Subject: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? References: Message-ID: <17193.28111.378783.703252@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> I believe that Tony mentioned that developer is usually just a >> strong alkalai. Tony> It's actally not _that_ strong. Strong enough to feel 'soapy' Tony> (it hydrolyses the fats in your fingers), but not strong enough Tony> to cause an alkali burn in my experience. That sounds rather strong. Not strong enough to burn fingers, perhaps -- then again, I don't think alkali usually does. But strong enough that it's important to protect your eyes from splashes. paul From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 07:55:45 2005 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 08:55:45 -0400 Subject: Looking for IBM PC/XT/AT technical references In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/15/05, GManuel (GMC) wrote: > > Is there any particular types of software that you are interested in or is > it just the tech stuff? Anything in the typical IBM binder with the IBM logo on it. I have Writing Assistant, Filing Assistant, Planning Assistant, Display Graphics, Storyboard, etc. I also have a general accounting package, BASIC compiler (2.00 I think), DisplayWrite, some games, some teaching tools (as in things a teacher would use in class to help the kids), EZ-VU development and Runtime, TopView, several DOS versions, and more... I also just picked up ImagEdit, which could hook up to one of IBM's scanners, and scan pictures in. It was also a general-purpose image editor, although not as complete as today's :-) I'm looking for Logo and an Assembler, if anyone's feeling generous :-) Rich B. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 07:57:14 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 08:57:14 -0400 Subject: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? In-Reply-To: <17193.28111.378783.703252@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <17193.28111.378783.703252@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <43296FAA.6080002@gmail.com> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"Tony" == Tony Duell writes: > > > >> I believe that Tony mentioned that developer is usually just a > >> strong alkalai. > > Tony> It's actally not _that_ strong. Strong enough to feel 'soapy' > Tony> (it hydrolyses the fats in your fingers), but not strong enough > Tony> to cause an alkali burn in my experience. > > That sounds rather strong. Not strong enough to burn fingers, perhaps > -- then again, I don't think alkali usually does. But strong enough > that it's important to protect your eyes from splashes. Many alkaline solutions will burn skin at lower concentrations than acids. Even tiny quantities of alkali can cause serious eye damage. Peace... Sridhar From gilcarrick at comcast.net Thu Sep 15 08:04:54 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 08:04:54 -0500 Subject: Circuit Cellar TI-74 article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200509151314.j8FDEKN4025861@keith.ezwind.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cini, Richard > Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 6:49 AM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Circuit Cellar TI-74 article > > That's the second place I looked. I checked out Dave Tweed's > on-line archive first. However "free" is indeed cheaper than > $29 for the CD or $5 for the individual issue, from which I > only want that article. Have you considered libraries? Gil From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Thu Sep 15 08:39:57 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:39:57 -0400 Subject: Circuit Cellar TI-74 article Message-ID: Checked...mine doesn't have it. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gil Carrick Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 9:05 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Circuit Cellar TI-74 article > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cini, Richard > Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 6:49 AM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Circuit Cellar TI-74 article > > That's the second place I looked. I checked out Dave Tweed's > on-line archive first. However "free" is indeed cheaper than > $29 for the CD or $5 for the individual issue, from which I > only want that article. Have you considered libraries? Gil From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 15 08:58:30 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:58:30 +0100 Subject: OT: Rescued oily classics, was Re: Suggestions for a mini? In-Reply-To: <432955F7.8050507@gjcp.net> References: <0IMU00LMV8ETEUG1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <432955F7.8050507@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43297E06.3070602@yahoo.co.uk> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Allison wrote: > >> Nah, >> >> A bug eyed sprite will do nicely. >> > > There were a couple at a classic car garage that was closing down, > unfinished projects. More MGBs (chrome and rubber bumpers) than I've > ever seen altogether. It's funny being in the US and seeing the way the lines on imported classic cars are so spoiled by the rubber bumpers and extra lights etc. - makes me wonder what the laws are regarding putting such vehicles back as they were originally designed... I rescued a '74 Scimitar, and I wish I had the > money and space to rescue more. I still want a Scimitar at some point - I went the Stag route a few years ago but wouldn't mind owning its competitor too :) To whoever mentioned a "vintage mini", we all know that there was only ever one true mini and the modern BMW offering doesn't count - so the "vintage" is unnecessary ;-) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 15 09:02:45 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 15:02:45 +0100 Subject: Jim Austin's website has moved... Message-ID: <43297F05.9000306@yahoo.co.uk> ... to http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/ (for those of you not familiar with him, he's one of the few private UK collectors of big iron - he's got some fantastic machines) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 15 09:10:09 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 15:10:09 +0100 Subject: Ardent "Titan" graphics supercomputer on Ebay... In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545E07@cpexchange.olf.com> References: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557545E07@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <432980C1.7040801@yahoo.co.uk> Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/80s-Ardent-Titan-graphics-supercomputer-orig-80K_W0QQite > mZ5809156065QQcategoryZ80075QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > Hmm, I only skimmed all of that text, but I didn't see anywhere where it said how complete the machine was. It mentioned the outside casing needing some TLC, but I got the impression the machine might be missing half of its boards etc. I hope someone can rescue it anyway! cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 15 09:38:59 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:38:59 -0400 Subject: OT: Rescued oily classics, was Re: Suggestions for a mini? References: <0IMU00LMV8ETEUG1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <432955F7.8050507@gjcp.net> <43297E06.3070602@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <17193.34691.989403.245499@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> Allison wrote: >> >>> Nah, >>> >>> A bug eyed sprite will do nicely. >>> >> There were a couple at a classic car garage that was closing down, >> unfinished projects. More MGBs (chrome and rubber bumpers) than >> I've ever seen altogether. Jules> It's funny being in the US and seeing the way the lines on Jules> imported classic cars are so spoiled by the rubber bumpers and Jules> extra lights etc. - makes me wonder what the laws are Jules> regarding putting such vehicles back as they were originally Jules> designed... Recent imports aren't so bad. For a while, small manufacturers didn't have a clue on how to handle the requirements and hacked up quick and dirty and ugly solutions. You can change any car within the rules that applied for its model year. For older cars that means you can make it much better than the import model, but perhaps not exactly like the European model. An example of a company that gets this right is Morgan. Their US models look just like the European ones -- really nice. paul From bill at timeguy.com Thu Sep 15 10:11:08 2005 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:11:08 -0500 Subject: Various Macs Available In-Reply-To: <200509150254.j8F2rgm1013286@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509150254.j8F2rgm1013286@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050915151108.GB27647@outpost.timeguy.com> I've got several old Macs; Color Classic, plain Mac Classics, some older Apple monitors, and a couple of LaserWriters that are going to hit the recycling center unless someone wants them. Located in Lincoln Nebraska. From bill at timeguy.com Thu Sep 15 10:16:31 2005 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:16:31 -0500 Subject: Available: Xerox 645S Memorywriter In-Reply-To: <200509150254.j8F2rgm1013286@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509150254.j8F2rgm1013286@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050915151631.GC27647@outpost.timeguy.com> This looks like a huge typewriter with dual 5 1/4" floppies under the keyboard and a 9" or so (mono?) CRT on a pivot above the platen area. It turns on and responds to keypresses. The only thing I can get the CRT to show is "Insert INST Disk" when I press some of the buttons above the keyboard. Since I don't have any disks or docs, there's not much more I can figure out. If anyone would like this beast, it's in Lincoln NE. From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 15 10:26:17 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 17:26:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Jim Austin's website has moved... In-Reply-To: <43297F05.9000306@yahoo.co.uk> References: <43297F05.9000306@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <15996.62.177.191.201.1126797977.squirrel@62.177.191.201> > > ... to http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/ > > (for those of you not familiar with him, he's one of the few private UK > collectors of big iron - he's got some fantastic machines) > > cheers > > Jules > Indeed he has a large collection, I have seen some of it up close. Does he still store it partially in the chicken sheds? Ed From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Thu Sep 15 11:59:12 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:59:12 +0200 Subject: Dectapes on ebay germany Message-ID: <0A5BA5AF-260A-11DA-BF76-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Just in case somebody needs them : ebay.de lists a box of 20 NOS dectapes ( not mine etc. etc.) Jos From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 15 12:13:30 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:13:30 -0700 Subject: Freeman collection scam? Message-ID: <994cba313cb95740e4c3c58f3ea66f1c@bitsavers.org> Very odd listing. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5243310357 Someone with no feedback in Belgium claiming to be selling the Freeman collection for $1000 "It is with great regret that we place our PC Museum up for purchase. " "The Freeman PC Museum is offered for sale." "YOU CAN BUY THESE PRODUCTS FOR $ 1000 RIGHT NOW" ??? From nogard at cishollywood.com Thu Sep 15 12:28:16 2005 From: nogard at cishollywood.com (Chris Ryan) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:28:16 -0700 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard IIc Diskette Message-ID: <200509151028.16634.nogard@cishollywood.com> HI everybody. Was wondering if somebody might be able to provide me a copy of this elusive disk. I happened upon the hardware a bit of time ago, but never got any software (the orignal utils disk). Was wondering if anybody might be able to provide it to me either via email (.dsk format), or send me a copy of the software (I'll pay for whatever it costs you to do this). Just keep in mind this is the utils disk for the Mockingboard //c, which is different than the utils disk that came w/ the regular mockingboard card. Thanks in advance, Chris Ryan nogard at cishollywood dot com From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 15 12:56:58 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II Mockingboard IIc Diskette In-Reply-To: <200509151028.16634.nogard@cishollywood.com> from "Chris Ryan" at Sep 15, 2005 10:28:16 AM Message-ID: <200509151756.j8FHuwI5015053@onyx.spiritone.com> > Just keep in mind this is the utils disk for the Mockingboard //c, which is > different than the utils disk that came w/ the regular mockingboard card. What is a "Mockingboard //c"? Wasn't the Mockingboard a soundcard? How on earth did it get plugged in? Zane From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Sep 15 12:59:01 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:59:01 +0100 Subject: Freeman collection scam? In-Reply-To: <994cba313cb95740e4c3c58f3ea66f1c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <001701c5ba1f$29047e40$5b01a8c0@pc1> Al Kossow wrote: > Very odd listing. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5243310357 > > Someone with no feedback in Belgium claiming to be selling the Freeman > collection > for $1000 No longer there - seems to have been cancelled by ebay? -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From news at computercollector.com Thu Sep 15 13:02:55 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:02:55 -0400 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard IIc Diskette In-Reply-To: <200509151028.16634.nogard@cishollywood.com> Message-ID: <200509151811.j8FIBacm029949@keith.ezwind.net> Check it out: a modern version for $65. http://www.armchairarcade.com/aamain/news.php?extend.380 - Evan -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Ryan Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 1:28 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Apple II Mockingboard IIc Diskette HI everybody. Was wondering if somebody might be able to provide me a copy of this elusive disk. I happened upon the hardware a bit of time ago, but never got any software (the orignal utils disk). Was wondering if anybody might be able to provide it to me either via email (.dsk format), or send me a copy of the software (I'll pay for whatever it costs you to do this). Just keep in mind this is the utils disk for the Mockingboard //c, which is different than the utils disk that came w/ the regular mockingboard card. Thanks in advance, Chris Ryan nogard at cishollywood dot com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 15 14:07:36 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:07:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP Integral Modem -- trials and tribulations Message-ID: Does anyone know anything about using the HP Integral modem, or have software that's _known_ to work with it? Today I tried the modem board (HP 82915) in my Integral. The machines powers up OK, and the load_modem command finds it and loads the driver. But any attempt to access /dev/modem00 (using stty, kermit (on the super-utilities disk), etc) hangs the machine. I decieded to do some investigating. Probing points on the I/O cards is difficult with the machine assembled, and I don't have an extender board. There is, however, a way to get good access to the boards, but it involves a little work. Remove the rear cover and rear screening plate over the logic assembly. Unplug the 2 cables from the back of the floppy drive, remove the 3 screws and the drive itself. Remove the eject button and spring before you lose them. Undo the screws holding the logic chassis in place. Unplug the power cables, HPIB cable, expansion backplane cable and HP-HIL cable from the logic boards,Leave the other (printer) cables connected, move the logic chssis towards the top of the machine. Remove the HP-HIL grounding nut (through a hole in the expansion backplane), then the 4 screws holding the PSU/expansion box in place. Take that out Undo all the screws and nuts holding the cover on this unit. Move the cover out of the way Undo the nut on the backplane earthing bracket, remove the 4 screws, the bracket, and the backplane. Reassmble and refit the PSU box (you don't need all the screws), plug the cables back into the logic assembly (you can leave off the HPIB cable if you're not using any HPIB peripherals at the time), plug in the expansion backplane cable with the backplane hanging behind th PSU box. Fit a couple of the logic chassis screws. Refit the floppy drive, hold it in place with at least 1 of the top screws. Recoonect its cables. The machine will run like that, and you can plug the expansion board into the backplane and probe pins on it. Now, to understand the next bit, you need to know a little about the design of the modem. The address decoder is simple. It responds to the slot-specific chip select line from a decoder on the CPU board, and further decodes lines A6 and A5. It provides 4 chip-select signals A6, A5 = 00 : Command/ID register. Bits 4-7 (only) used on write, to select interrupt line, force and enable interrupts. On read, bits 4-7 are much the same, bits 0-3 are a fixed ID value that identifies this as a modem. A6, A5 = 01 : Select 8250 serial chip. Address lines A1-A3 select the 8 registers in this chip in the usual way A6, A5 = 10 or 11. One selects the modem Tx chip (16 internal registers selected by A1-A4), the other selects the modem Rx chip (also 16 registers, selected by A1-A4). Anyway, after probing pins on the address decoder circuit and repeateded powering down/up the machine and running load_modem, I discovered that the only 'register' that this command accesses is to read the ID register, presumably to find a modem board. It does not attempt to initialise the serial chip or the modem ICs. I have the customer diagnostic disk. This also finds a modem, and I can run the diagnostics on it. It pases. It also seems to write things to various registers on the modem board (in particular, at the end of the test, the 8250 is left set to 1200 baud, the baud_out pin (wired to the Rclk input as usual) is running at 19200Hx). And it energises the line relay a couple of times. Any thoughts? Do I have an obscure hardware problem or just not the right software? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 15 14:22:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:22:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <4328BE12.26042D3A@msm.umr.edu> from "jim stephens" at Sep 14, 5 05:19:30 pm Message-ID: > > A real kludge would have been to use a couple of printer port cards > > (which would give you 24 output lines) and a little external circuitry to > > program an EPROM. These EPROMs were not hard to program 'by hand'. > > > > -tony > > the problem is not that obvious when pc's are everywhere. > > I read the data onto a floppy on said PC. I did not own the programmer, > so transfering it via RS232 was not that useful. I could run a program and I think you misunderstood me. I was suggesting using a couple of IBM parallel cards, along with ROM basic on the PC (or disk basic, or whatever) to make a crude EPROM programmer (it would take a handful of TTL parts). Use that to blow a BIOS image into a 'master' chip. Then copy that on your Data-IO -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 15 14:26:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:26:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <4328BEC5.3090000@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Sep 15, 5 01:22:29 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > I am typing > > this on a much hacked 8MHz IBM PC/AT, and it has BASIC in ROM. > > What *exactly* are you using here? IBM PC/AT case, PSU, motherboard. A 486 kludgeboard in the 286 socket. A couple of extra EPROMs and a TTL chip to cause the former to be overlayed over the end of the BIOS to modify the hard disk table. An IBM memory expansion board. Started life as a 128K card, I figured out (this is not in the Techref) that in fact it could be used with 256K*1 chips + populating the extra IC locations, to make a 1M card. Did so A 3rd party 4M RAM card A 3rd party card with more RAM (128K to bring the base memory up to 640K + another 1.5M), 2 serial ports, 1 parallel port An IBM MDA card + monitor A Colourgraph+ enhanced CGA card. A IDE + floppy card. Modified wiht a bit of stripboard and a couple of TTL chips to provide a drive-in-use LED for the iDE port. Connected to the original IBM 1.2M drive and a Teac 1.44M drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 15 14:27:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:27:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Sep 14, 5 07:16:20 pm Message-ID: > > > Bigger is better. > > > > I truely pity anyone who is only interested in having the biggest > > collection and has no other real interest in the machines themselves. I > > am darn sure, from what you write here, that this does not apply to you. > > Who says I was talking about my computer collection? Because this is classiccmp, so anything else would be off-topic. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 15 14:31:09 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:31:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? In-Reply-To: <43293142.9060708@ais.fraunhofer.de> from "Holger Veit" at Sep 15, 5 10:30:58 am Message-ID: > >The method I've always used is to etch the board as usual, wash it, then > >give it another (longer-than-normal) UV exposure with no artwork -- thus > >'fogging' the remaining resist. Then pop it back in the developer and it > >will all strip off nicely. Remember on most photoresist boards, the bits > >that are exposed to UV are the bits you want to etch away (the artwork is > >black for the traces, etc), so the resist that's been exposed is the > >stuff that comes off. > > > > > I am wondering what you have against a stripper like acetone. I have Absolutely nothing. But it's one more 'tray of liquid' to have around. I find it easier to just stick the board back in the UV box for a minute or so, then back in the developer -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 15 15:42:22 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Rescued oily classics, was Re: Suggestions for a mini? In-Reply-To: <432955F7.8050507@gjcp.net> References: <0IMU00LMV8ETEUG1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <432955F7.8050507@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20050915134149.X6008@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > When was the last time *you* saw an Austin Atlantic? Have there been ANY on the road in the last 20 years? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 15 16:11:15 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Rescued oily classics, was Re: Suggestions for a mini? In-Reply-To: <43297E06.3070602@yahoo.co.uk> References: <0IMU00LMV8ETEUG1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <432955F7.8050507@gjcp.net> <43297E06.3070602@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050915140814.A6008@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > To whoever mentioned a "vintage mini", we all know that there was only > ever one true mini and the modern BMW offering doesn't count - so the > "vintage" is unnecessary ;-) I was just being redundant for the sake of newbies and other unenlightened. Like saying 5150 when talking about a PC From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 18:24:35 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 00:24:35 +0100 Subject: Various Macs Available In-Reply-To: <20050915151108.GB27647@outpost.timeguy.com> References: <200509150254.j8F2rgm1013286@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050915151108.GB27647@outpost.timeguy.com> Message-ID: <575131af050915162421cbb3a0@mail.gmail.com> On 15/09/05, Bill Richman wrote: > I've got several old Macs; Color Classic, plain Mac Classics, some older Apple monitors, and a couple of LaserWriters that are going to hit the recycling center unless someone wants them. Located in Lincoln Nebraska. Might I suggest the vintagemacs mailing list run by www.LowEndMac.com? -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 15 20:39:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:39:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Bigger is better. > > > > > > I truely pity anyone who is only interested in having the biggest > > > collection and has no other real interest in the machines themselves. I > > > am darn sure, from what you write here, that this does not apply to you. > > > > Who says I was talking about my computer collection? > > Because this is classiccmp, so anything else would be off-topic. Even clocks, cameras, and radios? (And "Mini's" that are measured in valves rather than bits?) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From trag at io.com Wed Sep 14 13:06:24 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 13:06:24 -0500 Subject: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? In-Reply-To: <200509141606.j8EG6sn1007240@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509141606.j8EG6sn1007240@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 06:52:29 -0400 >From: Steven_R_Hutchins at Raytheon.com >Subject: Re: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? >DIY is fun, but try this site for pc boards. >$88. for quantity 2, double sided boards, 4 day turnaround >$122 for quantity 2, 4 layer boards, 4 day turnaround >Same price up to 85 sq. inches. High quality boards. >Just make sure you follow the rules for the "No touch" price, because they >send you exactly what your Gerbers contain. Steven, You left out the URL, but from the description, I'd say you were writing about Sierra Proto Express. I've used them before with good results--both 4-layer protos and a batch of 200 boards from their regular service. However, the catch with the proto services is that they're all limited to .062" thick board and for this particular application, I need .050" board. That simple change in board thickness changes much of how one would normally get some simple boards made. I've even emailed several proto services to ask if they could do .050 as a proto, but they won't, which is understandable. Jeff Walther From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 14 18:19:13 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <43276999.A056B9F0@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20050914231913.67074.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- jim stephens wrote: > This auction is for a "zukerboard" 576K mem > expansion. 6801436037. > I remember the hype for zucker that they were going > to wreck the > market. IIRC, that board was one of many multi multi-function cards. Everything including the kitchen sink. The original PC had 5 slots, as did some clones (Tandy 1000 comes to mind). So it was advantageous to have every bloody thing you needed on one card if possible. Again, iirc, the zukerboard or whatever was sort of cheapo. Don't quote me. > I know of at least Zucker, Tecmar (marty tech, I > don't remember marty's > last name, but he was some sort of PHD ohio type, I > think). There were a bunch, even into the (late) EGA days (you could get 800 x 600 and maybe better with some cards, as long as you had a multisync monitor). Don't forget the overseas types which didn't carry any particular vendor's name. > I remember a little shop here in Santa Ana which had > the first clone of > the IBM PC. It was a single board which had 640k > memory, allowed > using 64k memories, instead of the 16K memory that > the PC and XT > earlier models used. Um, care to dig up some research on that? The FIRST clone??? Get back to us, ay? *lol* > But once someone had them in the 2716's, it was easy > to get them > running in your superboard. Dvorak wrote in his column that there was piracy of this sort on a grand scale...across the border. You figure out which border I'm talking about. tee hee > Maybe others of you can recall expansion card > makers, of such > things as serial, parallel, memory, floppy, then > hard drive, etc. I find the 400 line graphic cards the most interesting. Sigma 400, STB, Tecmar, Taxan, and others made them. Then there's IBM's PGA card. I have a similar card made by Vermont Microsystems. Takes up 2 slots, and has an onboard 80186. Works the last time I tried it, but probably impossible to find drivers or docs for. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 14 18:30:10 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for a book on monitor theory Message-ID: <20050914233010.66271.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Can anyone recommend a book on the theory of operation of RGB computer monitors. I imagine a book that concentrates on monitors, as opposed to TV's in general, is probably uncommon. In that event, a recommendation for something general would be appreciated, whether a past or present publication. Purpose: the investigate the possibility of modifying a recent multisync to sync down to TV frequencies. Not interlaced necessarily. Just to use a modern monitor with stuph that operates between CGA and VGA frequencies. Much obliged. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From sdandrieu at cattron-theimeg.com Thu Sep 15 10:55:21 2005 From: sdandrieu at cattron-theimeg.com (Serge d'Andrieu) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:55:21 -0400 Subject: Need an EDAC connector Message-ID: I'm Searching for 8 connectors Edac P/N :341-080-500-210 Can you help me Thank You Serge d'Andrieu Senior Product Design Technician Tel: 514-908-1659 ext 63136 Fax: 514-908-1674 Cattron Theimeg Canada 3950 Hickmore St-Laurent H4T1K2 sdandrieu at cattron-theimeg.com From gcarrick at cse.uta.edu Thu Sep 15 12:24:32 2005 From: gcarrick at cse.uta.edu (A. G. Carrick) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:24:32 -0500 Subject: Freeman collection scam? In-Reply-To: <994cba313cb95740e4c3c58f3ea66f1c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200509151734.j8FHYH0H029545@keith.ezwind.net> The item has been removed by eBay. Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 12:14 PM > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: Freeman collection scam? > > > Very odd listing. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5243310357 > > Someone with no feedback in Belgium claiming to be selling > the Freeman collection for $1000 > > "It is with great regret that we place our PC Museum up for > purchase. " > > "The Freeman PC Museum is offered for sale." > > "YOU CAN BUY THESE PRODUCTS FOR $ 1000 RIGHT NOW" > > > ??? > From fritz_chwolka at t-online.de Thu Sep 15 14:53:38 2005 From: fritz_chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 21:53:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DEC *Rainbow* stuph In-Reply-To: <20050908040212.48090.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1EFznf-0jlXfs0@fwd35.sul.t-online.de> On Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:02:12 -0700 (PDT), Chris M wrote: >I recently obtained a Rainbow 100 with a gaggle of Look at ... http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/dec/info.html and http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/mirror/os2site/sw/dec/info.htm l Mit freundlichen Gruessen Fritz Chwolka From joe at futratec.com Wed Sep 14 19:52:31 2005 From: joe at futratec.com (Joe Maroney) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:52:31 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200509141601.j8EG0rfE006725@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509141601.j8EG0rfE006725@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4328C5CF.9030705@futratec.com> Greetings, I have two working PDP-11's(23+) that came out of a bowling alley for sale. Here is a partial list of items from the systems: PDP-11 Case CPU Board Memory Boards : 512 256 Controller Cards: Floppy and HD Communications boards MFM drive not working needs parts Floppy drive Both can be booted into RSX? I can provide screen shots I would like both systems to go as is in one sale. If you are interested contact me via email. I will be posting to eBay if no interest. Regards From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Sep 15 22:03:54 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:03:54 -0500 Subject: very neat classic computer book comparison Message-ID: <091201c5ba6b$460f9320$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Someone sent me this link... http://davidguy.brinkster.net/computer/ It is an online scan of the book "How it works - the computer", circa 1971. Very mini-computer oriented. What's even better, is they scanned both a 1971 and 1979 edition of the same book, so you can see how they revised it based on advances in technology. I thought it was neat in any case :) Some of the pictures are true porn for mini collectors :) Jay West From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 23:40:23 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 21:40:23 -0700 Subject: Need an EDAC connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1fc3e905091521402537b453@mail.gmail.com> On 9/15/05, Serge d'Andrieu wrote: > > I'm Searching for 8 connectors Edac P/N :341-080-500-210 > Can you help me > What uses this connector? 341 - 0.100" (2.54mm) contact spacing card edge connector, green 080 - 80 contacts 500 - wire hole contact tails 2 - two rows of contact 10 - unknown mounting option? It doesn't look like it is a standard product so good luck trying to find a source for small quantities. If you only need one or two you can probably get them for free as samples directly from EDAC. I got a couple of free samples from them, 305-048-500-202 which works as an HP-2100 or HP-1000 I/O card connector for 48-contact cards, and 305-086-500-202 which for EXORbus cards. I haven't found a source where I can buy these connectors in small quantities. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 16 00:44:47 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 00:44:47 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3B2 help needed Message-ID: <200509160044.47641.pat@computer-refuge.org> An on-topic question just to mix things up around here. :) I hauled home a few AT&T 3B2/310s and AT&T 5620 terminals the other day, from my usual surplus spot. While all of the 3B2s I've powered up so far seem to be good, except that none of them have a bootable hard disk. Does anyone have a utility floppy disk or set of install floppies they could make available? TIA, Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From tponsford at theriver.com Fri Sep 16 01:04:51 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 23:04:51 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3B2 help needed In-Reply-To: <200509160044.47641.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200509160044.47641.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <432A6083.50403@theriver.com> HI Pat, Yeah, I got the complete distrobution..approx 30 floppies of AT&T unix Contact me offlist! Patrick Finnegan wrote: >An on-topic question just to mix things up around here. :) > >I hauled home a few AT&T 3B2/310s and AT&T 5620 terminals the other day, >from my usual surplus spot. > >While all of the 3B2s I've powered up so far seem to be good, except that >none of them have a bootable hard disk. Does anyone have a utility >floppy disk or set of install floppies they could make available? > >TIA, > >Pat > > From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Sep 16 06:12:04 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:12:04 +0100 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <4328C5CF.9030705@futratec.com> References: <200509141601.j8EG0rfE006725@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4328C5CF.9030705@futratec.com> Message-ID: <432AA884.2070408@gjcp.net> Joe Maroney wrote: > Greetings, > > I have two working PDP-11's(23+) that came out of a bowling alley for > sale. Here is a partial list of items from the systems: > Where are they, and how much? Gordon. From dan.stanger at ieee.org Fri Sep 16 06:46:36 2005 From: dan.stanger at ieee.org (Donna and Dan Stanger) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 07:46:36 -0400 Subject: LSI - 11 cards and floppies for sale or trade. Message-ID: <432AB09C.F89C01DC@ieee.org> I have some 8" floppies and some cards for which I would like something. The floppies have some DECUS software on them except for one which is a RT11 V4 bootable diagnostic diskette. The cards are a printer interface M8027 and a M8028 Async line interface. Dan From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 16 08:29:51 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 09:29:51 -0400 Subject: eBay References: Message-ID: <17194.51407.167000.281403@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Tony Duell wrote: >> Because this is classiccmp, so anything else would be off-topic. Vintage> ...(And "Mini's" that are measured in valves rather than bits?) That would describe an LGP30, right? 113 valves... :-) paul From mmaginnis at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 09:20:42 2005 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 08:20:42 -0600 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard IIc Diskette In-Reply-To: <200509151756.j8FHuwI5015053@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200509151028.16634.nogard@cishollywood.com> <200509151756.j8FHuwI5015053@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 9/15/05, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Just keep in mind this is the utils disk for the Mockingboard //c, which is > > different than the utils disk that came w/ the regular mockingboard card. > > What is a "Mockingboard //c"? Wasn't the Mockingboard a soundcard? How on > earth did it get plugged in? > > Zane > > The Mockingboard D (the IIc version of the soundcard) plugged into the serial port. Its drivers were very different than the rest of the line. More on the Mockingboard: http://tinyurl.com/crm8y - Mike From mmaginnis at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 09:21:57 2005 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 08:21:57 -0600 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard IIc Diskette In-Reply-To: <200509151028.16634.nogard@cishollywood.com> References: <200509151028.16634.nogard@cishollywood.com> Message-ID: On 9/15/05, Chris Ryan wrote: > HI everybody. Was wondering if somebody might be able to provide me a copy of > this elusive disk. I happened upon the hardware a bit of time ago, but never > got any software (the orignal utils disk). Was wondering if anybody might be > able to provide it to me either via email (.dsk format), or send me a copy of > the software (I'll pay for whatever it costs you to do this). > > Just keep in mind this is the utils disk for the Mockingboard //c, which is > different than the utils disk that came w/ the regular mockingboard card. > > > Thanks in advance, > Chris Ryan > nogard at cishollywood dot com > > Have you tried the Asimov archive? - Mike From mmaginnis at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 09:33:30 2005 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 08:33:30 -0600 Subject: Wanted Commodore Equipment In-Reply-To: <5736e82505091407251ab59f8d@mail.gmail.com> References: <5736e82505091407251ab59f8d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 9/14/05, Star Master wrote: > If anyone has any Commodore equipment the wish to get rid of, please let me > know. I will pay shipping, but limited funds prevent much else. > Thank you > I have a (recently) dead SX-64 you can have, and an Amiga 1000. - Mike From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 16 09:35:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 07:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: <17194.51407.167000.281403@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: > > Vintage> On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Because this is classiccmp, so anything else would be off-topic. > > Vintage> ...(And "Mini's" that are measured in valves rather than bits?) > > That would describe an LGP30, right? 113 valves... :-) That's the smart-ass spirit! :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Fri Sep 16 09:47:34 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 10:47:34 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557830B2F@cpexchange.olf.com> Does anyone have any PDP8 equipment / machine they are willing to dispose (or sell) in the NY area??? A friend of mine is asking... Thanks, Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: Gordon JC Pearce [mailto:gordon at gjcp.net] > Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 7:12 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-11 > > > Joe Maroney wrote: > > Greetings, > > > > I have two working PDP-11's(23+) that came out of a bowling > alley for > > sale. Here is a partial list of items from the systems: > > > > Where are they, and how much? > > Gordon. > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 16 09:53:35 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:53:35 +0100 Subject: AT&T 3B2 help needed In-Reply-To: <432A6083.50403@theriver.com> References: <200509160044.47641.pat@computer-refuge.org> <432A6083.50403@theriver.com> Message-ID: <432ADC6F.6090806@yahoo.co.uk> tom ponsford wrote: > HI Pat, > > Yeah, I got the complete distrobution..approx 30 floppies of AT&T unix > Contact me offlist! Any chance they can be put online anywhere? I'm not aware of anyone hosting them at present... From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 16 10:06:30 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 10:06:30 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3B2 help needed In-Reply-To: <432ADC6F.6090806@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200509160044.47641.pat@computer-refuge.org> <432A6083.50403@theriver.com> <432ADC6F.6090806@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200509161006.30224.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 16 September 2005 09:53, Jules Richardson wrote: > tom ponsford wrote: > > HI Pat, > > > > Yeah, I got the complete distrobution..approx 30 floppies of AT&T > > unix Contact me offlist! > > Any chance they can be put online anywhere? I'm not aware of anyone > hosting them at present... Assuming it's ok with whoever gives me the disks/images, I'll probably be doing that as soon as I get them. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Sep 16 10:12:34 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 08:12:34 -0700 Subject: TSX Plus... Message-ID: <200509160812.34697.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Several folks have sent me Emails concerning the status of getting TSX Plus online. The delay is my fault: I changed ISPs recently and have had to move our company website, ftp, mail, etc. to the new site. We are also in the process of becoming the U.S. mirror for a large european SGI tech. info site (hopefully to be completed in a week or so). I'll post it when it's up and running. I expect to have the time within the next couple of weeks to have all the TSX-Plus goodies available online. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 16 10:25:04 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 08:25:04 -0700 Subject: TSX Plus... In-Reply-To: <200509160812.34697.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200509160812.34697.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: At 8:12 AM -0700 9/16/05, Lyle Bickley wrote: >Several folks have sent me Emails concerning the status of getting TSX Plus >online. The delay is my fault: I changed ISPs recently and have had to move >our company website, ftp, mail, etc. to the new site. We are also in the >process of becoming the U.S. mirror for a large european SGI tech. info site >(hopefully to be completed in a week or so). I'll post it when it's up and >running. > >I expect to have the time within the next couple of weeks to have all the >TSX-Plus goodies available online. Thanks for the info, but my PDP-11/73 and SGI O2 are interested in further developments :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From nogard at cishollywood.com Fri Sep 16 12:23:19 2005 From: nogard at cishollywood.com (Chris Ryan) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 10:23:19 -0700 Subject: Apple II Mockingboard IIc Diskette Message-ID: <200509161023.19379.nogard@cishollywood.com> It actually plugs into the Apple //c serial's port I believe. I would have to pull it out of storage to confirm this. They didnt make very many as it wasnt compatible w/ the regular card based Mockingboard. Here is what I found on the web at: http://www.apple2.org/faq/FAQ.sndmusic04.html The later Mockingboard "D" had the same capabilities as the "C", but attached to the Apple IIc via the serial port. I have everything I need (box, sound device, and manual), except the disk. Would like to make it complete for my collection. -Chris Ryan From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Sep 16 13:46:17 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:46:17 -0400 Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 16 Sep 2005 07:35:11 PDT." Message-ID: <200509161846.j8GIkHC7010123@mwave.heeltoe.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: >> >> Vintage> On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Because this is classiccmp, so anything else would be off-topic. >> >> Vintage> ...(And "Mini's" that are measured in valves rather than bits?) >> >> That would describe an LGP30, right? 113 valves... :-) [my off topic comment for the month of sept] you guys and your British sports cars. The only old car worth owning (other than a 911) would be a Porsche 904! -brad From tradde at excite.com Fri Sep 16 14:42:14 2005 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:42:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11 Message-ID: <20050916194214.797A3BA8A@xprdmailfe14.nwk.excite.com> Where in the NY area? I have a second pdp-8a desk system, DecDataSystem 310 I think it is called. I am not sure what is in it, but it probably has 16k of core, could have a dual floppy, the processor and associated cards. It's heavy and big though. --- On Fri 09/16, Ram Meenakshisundaram < RMeenaks at olf.com > wrote: From: Ram Meenakshisundaram [mailto: RMeenaks at olf.com] To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 10:47:34 -0400 Subject: RE: PDP-11 Does anyone have any PDP8 equipment / machine they are willing to dispose
(or sell) in the NY area??? A friend of mine is asking...

Thanks,

Ram

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gordon JC Pearce [mailto:gordon at gjcp.net]
> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 7:12 AM
> To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: PDP-11
>
>
> Joe Maroney wrote:
> > Greetings,
> >
> > I have two working PDP-11's(23+) that came out of a bowling
> alley for
> > sale. Here is a partial list of items from the systems:
> >
>
> Where are they, and how much?
>
> Gordon.
>
_______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 16 14:46:54 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:46:54 -0500 Subject: TSX Plus... References: <200509160812.34697.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <002f01c5baf7$647cdc00$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Lyle wrote... > I expect to have the time within the next couple of weeks to have all the > TSX-Plus goodies available online. Lyle, I was wondering if you'd be opposed to me mirroring those files to the classiccmp server (preferred), or at the least if you'd mind if I put a non-mirrored copy there. Jay From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 14:59:46 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:59:46 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20050916194214.797A3BA8A@xprdmailfe14.nwk.excite.com> References: <20050916194214.797A3BA8A@xprdmailfe14.nwk.excite.com> Message-ID: On 9/16/05, Tim wrote: > > Where in the NY area? I have a second pdp-8a desk system, DecDataSystem 310 I think it is called. Yep... I've had one for about 20 years... nice system, and plenty of room on the desktop for a VT52. > I am not sure what is in > it, but it probably has 16k of core, could have a dual floppy, > the processor and associated cards. It's heavy and big though. The typical configuration was 16K to 32K of memory (core or MOS), one RX8E, one dual RX01 or RX02, a KK8A CPU card, and the typical KM8AA and DKC8AA hex-height multi I/O cards. Some DS-310s might have a printer interface of one sort or another for anything from an LA-180 up to some sort of daisy-wheel printer. Another semi-common option was the KL8A quad-serial interface. I think there was support under WPS-8 to allow multiple WPS users on multiple VT52s, but I haven't tried that myself. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dec-faq/pdp8-models/ http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/hard8e/modules.html It's a great platform for running OS/8 on... quad or hex cards, supports 128K (w/KT8A and hex MOS memory modules), but not the right packaging if you want to use the programmer's panel (the CPU sits in front of the user's feet, facing the wall), unless you have long cables and mount the panel over or under the floppies beside the user. I have one RX02 and one RL01 in my desk, leaving no room for a front panel. -ethan From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Sep 16 15:09:34 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lbickley) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:09:34 -0600 Subject: TSX Plus... Message-ID: > Lyle, I was wondering if you'd be opposed to me mirroring those files to the > classiccmp server (preferred), or at the least if you'd mind if I put a > non-mirrored copy there. > > Jay Thanks for the offer, but at this point, for legal reasons it's a bit "sticky". I have to have folks fill out a form where the state and "sign" that they understand the software is for hobbiest purposes only and that they will not use the software for commercial purposes, and will not distribute it, etc. In addition, I have to track the name and address of the person who downloaded the software. (There are still commercial users of TSX Plus). Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA 94040 "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Sep 16 15:51:22 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 21:51:22 +0100 Subject: TSX Plus... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <432B304A.2020700@gjcp.net> Lbickley wrote: >>Lyle, I was wondering if you'd be opposed to me mirroring those files to > > the > >>classiccmp server (preferred), or at the least if you'd mind if I put a >>non-mirrored copy there. >> >>Jay > > > Thanks for the offer, but at this point, for legal reasons it's a bit > "sticky". I have to have folks fill out a form where the state and "sign" > that they understand the software is for hobbiest purposes only and that > they will not use the software for commercial purposes, and will not > distribute it, etc. In addition, I have to track the name and address of > the person who downloaded the software. (There are still commercial users > of TSX Plus). Ages ago when I got my PDP-11 first, I emailed S & H asking about getting a licence for my copy of TSX+ but they never got back to me. It did seem that they were selling a version that ran on a PC, but they didn't appear to sell the PDP-11 version any more. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Sep 16 15:52:59 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 21:52:59 +0100 Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: <200509161846.j8GIkHC7010123@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200509161846.j8GIkHC7010123@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <432B30AB.5020606@gjcp.net> Brad Parker wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >>On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >>>>>>>>"Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: >>> >>> Vintage> On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Tony Duell wrote: >>> >> Because this is classiccmp, so anything else would be off-topic. >>> >>> Vintage> ...(And "Mini's" that are measured in valves rather than bits?) >>> >>>That would describe an LGP30, right? 113 valves... :-) > > > [my off topic comment for the month of sept] > > you guys and your British sports cars. The only old car worth owning > (other than a 911) would be a Porsche 904! Nah, it's got to be the Citro?n SM... Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Sep 16 17:04:52 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 23:04:52 +0100 Subject: Heathkit ET-3400 red filter material? In-Reply-To: <15107.195.212.29.75.1126258232.squirrel@www.gjcp.net> References: <15107.195.212.29.75.1126258232.squirrel@www.gjcp.net> Message-ID: <432B4184.3040102@gjcp.net> gordonjcp at gjcp.net wrote: > Take it to your friendly neighbourhood theatre geek, who will be able to > supply you with gel swatch books. You can probably find a bit of scrap > red gel that's close enough. > > Gordon. > > WTF? Once again, a posting of mine that shows up over a week after it was originally sent... Gordon. From tomj at wps.com Fri Sep 16 17:14:14 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? Message-ID: <20050916150931.K716@fiche.wps.com> Up at Apex today, this is what I saw, part 1: http://wps.com/temp/CMC1.jpg http://wps.com/temp/CMC2.jpg http://wps.com/temp/CMC3.jpg It's a 12-bit machine, but big odd non-DEC-looking boards. It's 7400 TTL, with 1974 and 1973 dated-coded chips. Both machines are ruined. Sacked in mud, probably for a decade. Little rust though, looks like damp, then blown-in dust or silt. Boards are possibly recoverable. No memory or any accessories within 10 feet, I think they were buried under junk and just unearthed (Don is going through the yard). The switch register is 12 bits, and a LINK light, so I assume it's a pdp8 clone. Could be wrong of course. From tomj at wps.com Fri Sep 16 17:16:01 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:16:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BURROUGHS reel tape Message-ID: <20050916151415.S716@fiche.wps.com> Up at Apex, what did I see, part 2: http://wps.com/temp/B-tape.jpg Not too spectacular, just some old reel tapes in (luckily) weather-proof containers. BURROUGHS. 3200 fci, so not too ancient. Stuff like this (minor) scattered all through the place. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 16 17:25:55 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 17:25:55 -0500 Subject: Heathkit ET-3400 red filter material? References: <15107.195.212.29.75.1126258232.squirrel@www.gjcp.net> <432B4184.3040102@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <00b601c5bb0d$9ad5d0c0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> You wrote.... > WTF? Once again, a posting of mine that shows up over a week after it was > originally sent... I'm just singling you out Gordon. How about you send me the date & time you sent the original message, then the headers from the message you got? Might help. J From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Sep 16 17:36:23 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? In-Reply-To: <20050916150931.K716@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <20050916223624.83495.qmail@web81302.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tom Jennings wrote: > It's a 12-bit machine, but big odd non-DEC-looking > boards. It's > 7400 TTL, with 1974 and 1973 dated-coded chips. Hi, Tom. These are the machines I told you about a couple of weeks ago. They are relabelled Digital Computer Controls D-112, clones of the PDP8/I. Bruce Ray has a few pictures up on his website: http://www.simulogics.com/nostalgia/DCC/dcc.htm When I examined them, I didn't see any memory, indeed, my suspicion was that only the proprietary CMC boards remained. --Bill From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 16 17:39:40 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 17:39:40 -0500 Subject: RESOLVED Re: Heathkit ET-3400 red filter material? References: <15107.195.212.29.75.1126258232.squirrel@www.gjcp.net> <432B4184.3040102@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <00bd01c5bb0f$88059d20$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Gordon wrote... > WTF? Once again, a posting of mine that shows up over a week after it was > originally sent... I decided to go ahead and dig in to this, even though I probably didn't have the requisite information in hand (headers from Gordon) to trace this down. I have determined that Gordon is posting from gordonjcp at gjcp.net, when in fact he is not subscribed from that address. He is subscribed from gordon at gjcp.net So, what is happening here is his posts are being held for moderation every single time... EVERY POST.... because they are considered as coming from a non-list member. If you'd like to make sure you have no posting delays, please log in to the website and fix your subscription address. Jay West From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 16 17:52:46 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 18:52:46 -0400 Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? Message-ID: <0IMX00D7IM62V762@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? > From: Tom Jennings > Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:14:14 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >Up at Apex today, this is what I saw, part 1: > >http://wps.com/temp/CMC1.jpg >http://wps.com/temp/CMC2.jpg >http://wps.com/temp/CMC3.jpg > >It's a 12-bit machine, but big odd non-DEC-looking boards. It's >7400 TTL, with 1974 and 1973 dated-coded chips. > >Both machines are ruined. Sacked in mud, probably for a decade. >Little rust though, looks like damp, then blown-in dust or silt. >Boards are possibly recoverable. > >No memory or any accessories within 10 feet, I think they were >buried under junk and just unearthed (Don is going through the >yard). > >The switch register is 12 bits, and a LINK light, so I assume >it's a pdp8 clone. Could be wrong of course. Thats exactly what it is, a PDP-8e (work alike) clone. It's been a while since I'd seen one. A good washing and maybe new switches and I bet it's salvagable. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 16 18:55:28 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 16:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? In-Reply-To: <20050916150931.K716@fiche.wps.com> from "Tom Jennings" at Sep 16, 2005 03:14:14 PM Message-ID: <200509162355.j8GNtTjO023379@onyx.spiritone.com> > Up at Apex today, this is what I saw, part 1: OK, what am I missing? What/where is Apex? > http://wps.com/temp/CMC1.jpg Nice front panel! > http://wps.com/temp/CMC2.jpg File Missing... > Both machines are ruined. Sacked in mud, probably for a decade. > Little rust though, looks like damp, then blown-in dust or silt. > Boards are possibly recoverable. If nothing else, it might be worth trying to recover the front panels, since they look to be in surprisingly good shape. Zane From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 16 19:18:10 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 19:18:10 -0500 Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? References: <200509162355.j8GNtTjO023379@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <000c01c5bb1d$78c8d300$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written.... >> Both machines are ruined. Sacked in mud, probably for a decade. >> Little rust though, looks like damp, then blown-in dust or silt. >> Boards are possibly recoverable. >From what I saw.... those are definitely restorable. At least the cosmetics sure are. I believe there's a KB article on how to mold replacement switches ;) Jay From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 16 18:14:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 00:14:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: looking for a book on monitor theory In-Reply-To: <20050914233010.66271.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Sep 14, 5 04:30:10 pm Message-ID: > > Can anyone recommend a book on the theory of operation > of RGB computer monitors. I imagine a book that > concentrates on monitors, as opposed to TV's in > general, is probably uncommon. In that event, a I've not found one.... Monitor circuitry is, not suprisingly, similar to TV circuitry, in fact the older (fixed-scan rate) monitors were in some cases almost indentical. I would start by getting some good books on TV servicing. Unfortunately I can't recomend any of thsoe either -- I started learning about TVs when they were full of valves, and all my introductory books date from that time. I have not found a good book which covers multi-sync monitors at all. Some service manuals are available (either officially or not), but often the theory-of-operation is conspicuous by its absence. You get a schematic and setting-up info and little more. > recommendation for something general would be > appreciated, whether a past or present publication. > Purpose: the investigate the possibility of modifying > a recent multisync to sync down to TV frequencies. Not > interlaced necessarily. Just to use a modern monitor > with stuph that operates between CGA and VGA > frequencies. Much obliged. Eeek! You've picked an 'interesting' project. Personally I think it would be easier to find an old TV-rate monitor and repair it, even if you have to wind replacement transformers yourself. But anyway... I am sure you know that the horizontal output stage also supplies most of the high voltages for the CRT. It is not at all obvious to me that you will be able to drop the scan rate to TV rates and maintain all the voltages at their correct value, and maintain the image width. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 16 18:17:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 00:17:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: eBay In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Sep 15, 5 06:39:58 pm Message-ID: > > Because this is classiccmp, so anything else would be off-topic. > > Even clocks, cameras, and radios? Yes. I never said _I_ didn't go off-topic but I hoped your were better behaved... > > (And "Mini's" that are measured in valves rather than bits?) Come again? Are you now saying that valves are off-topic. I _am_ on the wrong list (for the uninitiated, 'valve' is the British name for 'electron tube', 'vacuum tube', 'glassfet', etc). I would hope valved computers were on-topic here, and IMHO the Manchester Mk 1 is small enough to just about be a mini... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 16 18:22:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 00:22:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: very neat classic computer book comparison In-Reply-To: <091201c5ba6b$460f9320$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Sep 15, 5 10:03:54 pm Message-ID: > > Someone sent me this link... > > http://davidguy.brinkster.net/computer/ > > It is an online scan of the book "How it works - the computer", circa 1971. Eeek!... I remeber that book when it was current. As you've probably gathered, the 'ladybird books' were aimed at children, and I think I had all the 'How It Works' series. [The one I particularly _disliked_ was 'How It Works -- The Telephone'. I could not understand that book. I couldn't understand it when I re-read it several years later. I finally understood it when I bought a copy of 'Telephony' about 10 years ago. 'Telephony' is a book that was used by telephone engineers in the UK, and contains complete schematics for telephone exchanges, etc). I realised why I couldn't understand the simpler books, far too much had been left out, so what remained made no sense. There is a danger in oversimplifying things. Another Ladybird book was called 'Making a Transistor Radio'. It covered building a crystal sed, adding a single transistor audio amplifier, then a second stage and a speaker, and finally replacing the detector with a regenerative stage. The final set was a 3-transistor AM receiver using a couple of OC71s and an OC45. I think just about every UK electronics enthusiast built that at one time or another. -tony From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 16 19:31:42 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 01:31:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? Message-ID: <20050917003142.49367.qmail@web25009.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >> http://wps.com/temp/CMC2.jpg > File Missing... It's here .. http://wps.com/temp/CMC-2.jpg Lee. . ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Sep 16 19:50:41 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 17:50:41 -0700 Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? --> DCC on back of one photo References: <200509162355.j8GNtTjO023379@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <432B6861.EDC223C8@msm.umr.edu> If you go to Tom's site, you will find that there is a CMC3 photo http://wps.com/temp/CMC3.jpg which shows a label Digital Computer Controls Inc. I wonder if this is the DCC that produced the Nova clone? The CMC machines were used not for anything like control purposes, but for business machines, at least when they were broken up. And they were not clones of novas, but rather of PDP8s Jim "Zane H. Healy" wrote: From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 16 19:53:54 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 01:53:54 +0100 Subject: looking for a book on monitor theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <432B6922.1050108@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >>Can anyone recommend a book on the theory of operation >>of RGB computer monitors. I imagine a book that >>concentrates on monitors, as opposed to TV's in >>general, is probably uncommon. In that event, a > > > I've not found one.... > > Monitor circuitry is, not suprisingly, similar to TV circuitry, in fact > the older (fixed-scan rate) monitors were in some cases almost > indentical. Sam Goldwasser's online repair FAQ is of course full of useful info, including some of the theory: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/monfaq.htm cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 16 19:55:50 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 01:55:50 +0100 Subject: very neat classic computer book comparison In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <432B6996.4080708@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >>Someone sent me this link... >> >>http://davidguy.brinkster.net/computer/ >> >>It is an online scan of the book "How it works - the computer", circa 1971. > > > Eeek!... I remeber that book when it was current. As you've probably > gathered, the 'ladybird books' were aimed at children, and I think I had > all the 'How It Works' series. Wow, that brings back some memories. Unfortunately I can't remember which ones I had - and I doubt I hung onto them either :( From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Sep 16 20:35:48 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 20:35:48 -0500 Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? In-Reply-To: <20050916150931.K716@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <200509170145.j8H1jDQt046012@keith.ezwind.net> CMC sold "key-to-disk" data entry systems back in the '70s and later. Not sure when they disappeared. They competed in this with Four Phase Systems, among others. They OEMed the box. You are apparently right about the PDP8 clone thing: http://www.simulogics.com/nostalgia/DCC/dcc.htm The cmc2.jpg file is 404. Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Jennings > Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 5:14 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? > > Up at Apex today, this is what I saw, part 1: > > http://wps.com/temp/CMC1.jpg > http://wps.com/temp/CMC2.jpg > http://wps.com/temp/CMC3.jpg > ... From tomj at wps.com Fri Sep 16 20:45:24 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 18:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? In-Reply-To: <200509162355.j8GNtTjO023379@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200509162355.j8GNtTjO023379@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20050916184415.L716@fiche.wps.com> On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Up at Apex today, this is what I saw, part 1: > > OK, what am I missing? What/where is Apex? What, is your telepathy broken? Sheesh! Sorry, Apex Electronics, Sun Valley CA, just N. of Los Angeles. > If nothing else, it might be worth trying to recover the front panels, since > they look to be in surprisingly good shape. Actually, even those are weather-bleached, scratched, broken switches, lifting laminate... what a shame. From tomj at wps.com Fri Sep 16 20:51:59 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 18:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? In-Reply-To: <200509162355.j8GNtTjO023379@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200509162355.j8GNtTjO023379@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20050916185011.D716@fiche.wps.com> > Subject: Re: Computer Machinery Corporation? Does anyone know anything about them? My sorry ass can't find anything on them via Google, but it's a terrible name to search for. There's a "CMC" that made a lot of electronic instrumentation and process-control counters (dekatrons, counters, etc). Could even be the same company with a slight name change. From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Sep 16 20:55:35 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 21:55:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557830B2F@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: > Does anyone have any PDP8 equipment / machine they are willing to dispose > (or sell) in the NY area??? A friend of mine is asking... What kind of "disposal fee" is the friend willing to pay? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Sep 16 20:58:52 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 21:58:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: BURROUGHS reel tape In-Reply-To: <20050916151415.S716@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: > Up at Apex, what did I see, part 2: > > http://wps.com/temp/B-tape.jpg > > Not too spectacular, just some old reel tapes in (luckily) > weather-proof containers. BURROUGHS. 3200 fci, so not too ancient. All Burroughs is worth saving, simply because no one saves it. For such a big player in the computer industry during the golden age, so few people know anything about the company or their machines. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Sep 16 21:01:34 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 22:01:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? In-Reply-To: <20050916184415.L716@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: > What, is your telepathy broken? Sheesh! > > > Sorry, Apex Electronics, Sun Valley CA, just N. of Los Angeles. One can not be a true surplus hound if they have never been to Apex. Or Fair Radio Sales. I am not counting the legions of surplus haunts that are no more... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Sep 16 21:17:13 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 21:17:13 -0500 Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? In-Reply-To: <20050916185011.D716@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <200509170226.j8H2QcVK046343@keith.ezwind.net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Jennings > Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 8:52 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Computer Machinery Corporation? > > > Subject: Re: Computer Machinery Corporation? > > Does anyone know anything about them? My sorry ass can't find > anything on them via Google, but it's a terrible name to search for. They just went by CMC. My earlier post gave a link or two re the key-to-disk business. Try searching for that phrase. Gil > > > There's a "CMC" that made a lot of electronic instrumentation > and process-control counters (dekatrons, counters, etc). > Could even be the same company with a slight name change. > From tubastuff at inbox.com Fri Sep 16 12:18:03 2005 From: tubastuff at inbox.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 09:18:03 -0800 Subject: Looking for info/software/anything for 9-track adapter Message-ID: <8B6AD0703AC.0000054Etubastuff@inbox.com> Howdy list, I've just picked up a Computer Logics PCTD III 9-track tape drive ISA adapter board. It has a 68-pin D-sub socket on the mounting bracket for connection to a Pertec interface drive (I've got a brand new Fujitsu M2444AC). My problem is that I have no documentation or software at all for this thing. I called Chi Corporation to see what they have for it and they said that they've long since disposed of any information on the card. The only thing that the guy at Chi could remember is that it doesn't work with faster CPUs. So I'm stuck for any information on this board. I'm looking for either copy of software or technical documentation for the card. My intent is to write either a Linux or XP driver for this thing and I'll be happy to share the results of my work. Can anyone help out? Thanks much! Chuck Guzis Sydex, Inc. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 16 12:38:05 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 10:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Fwd: FS large lot of equipment] In-Reply-To: <431F8064.7010909@mich.com> Message-ID: <20050916173805.35283.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> I think you're meaning to sell this as a lot, but if you don't get suitable offers, I'm interested in some of the PC stuph (Zenith, Dec, Tandy 2000, etc.). I'd probably pick the stuph up. Let me know. Thanks. --- Dave Mabry wrote: > Noticed this on a usenet group. Someone here might > be interested. > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: FS large lot of equipment > Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 09:33:26 -0400 > From: Markco > Newsgroups: comp.sys.zenith > > Hi; > > I have a huge collection of vintage equipment I > want to sell. There is a > collection of several years here. Make a reasonable > offer, you pick up. It > is just too much for me to deal with any more and I > want a serious vintage > collector take it and use it.I cannot sell and ship > selectively. And there > is just WAY too much to ship anyway.I need to sell > it as ONE lot. Here is a > small sketch of what I have. Because of the range of > stuff, I apologize > ahead for cross posting. > > > Commodore...(2) c64,(1) C64C (2)c128,(2) vic20,(3) > plus 4, and (1)c16 > computers. (4) 1541 and(2) 1571 disk drives, cables > etc. 1 c2N Datasette, 2 > commodore Monitors, one working one in need of > repair. There are diskettes, > miscellaneous manuals.A number of Texas instruments > 994a units (both Beige > and Silver and Black) and accessories, including THE > expansion box.A lot of > program cartridges,disks, a tape drve unit, etc. > > Also multiple Tandy 1000 type units,A Tandy 2000, A > PC Junior and monitor > and accessories, Multiple Apple 2e, 2e+ and a number > of early Macs including > 2gs. A couple of Apple 2c units and the matching > monitors.A couple of Lazer > 128s, A couple of early Atari and coleco game > systems and cartridges. An > Atari 520ST with monitor,A complete coleco Adam and > some spare parts. 2 > Kaypros, an Osborne 1, A number of Various Zenith > products including a > couple of Z100s, EZ PCs and early portables. A > Panasonic Partner.There is > also a Digital Rainbow 100. There are a bunch of > early notebook machines > here too from various manufacturers. > > Also a number of early desktop systems, IBM PC > 5150s, IBM ATs, Various other > Early IBM machines, Zeniths, Compaqs, some > portables, and other numerous > desktops with names such as Sanyo, Hundai, Wang, -- > clear up through 286s > 386s 486s and early pentiums and AMD products. > > Also totes full of cards, drives, cables, parts etc. > There are not monitors > for each individual system, but there is a at least > one monitor that will > work with each. Some of the 8 bits use a TV and > there is a TV switch unit or > two here also. Ive got a few printers, enough to > match and couple with most > systems. > There is also a LOT of software,disks,books,manuals, > etc.You'll need to > bring cartons :-) > > So, in short a bunch of equipment from the early 80s > up through. 8 bit and > up. > > Fully 99% of the equipment is operational. All has > been stored here, dry and > protected,where I live. Everything is as is, please. > MAKE ME AN OFFER. > > > > Please email so we can make arrangements. You pick > up, and I won't take > personal checks, please. I live in the central > Vermont area. > > email at: onthfly1 at hotmail.com > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Sep 16 13:35:34 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:35:34 -0400 Subject: Circuit Cellar TI-74 article Message-ID: <01C5BACC.1F59CA00@H83.C223.tor.velocet.net> ORIGINAL MESSAGES: Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:37:23 -0400 From: "Cini, Richard" Subject: Circuit Cellar TI-74 article All: Does anyone have a copy of the April/May 1991 issue (Issue #20) of Circuit Cellar and can scan an article for me? There's an article on using the TI-74 BASICCALC for data acquisition and control. The article, written by Ed Vogel, appears beginning on page 41. TIA. Rich -------------------------------------------------------------------- >Would you believe, the Circuit Cellar folks do? > >-Frank McConnell --------------------------------------------------------------------- REPLY: Hi Rich: If that doesn't help, e-mail me off-list; I've got a pretty complete set of the early CC INKs, no prob scanning these 4 pages. mike From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 16 21:06:48 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 19:06:48 -0700 Subject: looking for a book on monitor theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200509161906480657.020A8469@10.0.0.252> >> recommendation for something general would be >> appreciated, whether a past or present publication. >> Purpose: the investigate the possibility of modifying >> a recent multisync to sync down to TV frequencies. Not >> interlaced necessarily. Just to use a modern monitor >> with stuph that operates between CGA and VGA >> frequencies. Much obliged. I'll echo that I don't think it's practical to do this. Modern multisync CRT monitors contain lots of circuitry to manage the various linearity and distortion problem imposed by the need to vary sweep frequencies. The horizontal sweep components, in particular, won't let you get much below 32 Khz or so. I suppose one could use a TV-freqency video "frame grabber" on a PC to acquire then display on a modern monitor, but that seems to be the long way around the job. Far better to find an inexpensive broadcast receiver and hack into the video and sync circuitry as needed. My first 64-column monitor (hooked to a modified SWTP TV Typewriter) was an old tube-type Zenith monochrome portable TV (with an isolation transformer on the mains supply, since this was a "hot chassis" model. Worked just fine until I latched onto a Beehive Super Bee terminal. Or cruise the junk shops for old monitors--there should still be a few wandering around that have 15-18 KHz horizontal sweeps. I think I even have an old Mitsubishi Diamond Scan monitor that will sync between TV and EGA frequencies. I use it with an RGB demodulator and an East German VCR to view PAL VHS tapes that friends from Europe send me. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 16 21:20:50 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 19:20:50 -0700 Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? In-Reply-To: <20050916185011.D716@fiche.wps.com> References: <200509162355.j8GNtTjO023379@onyx.spiritone.com> <20050916185011.D716@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <200509161920500389.02175C44@10.0.0.252> On 9/16/2005, Tom Jennings wrote: >> Subject: Re: Computer Machinery Corporation? > >Does anyone know anything about them? My sorry ass can't find >anything on them via Google, but it's a terrible name to search >for. Looks like it's one of the companies that Pertec bought back in the 70's at about the same time it picked up MITS: http://www.krsaborio.net/research/1970s/770516.htm I think I even remember scavenging IC's from a surplus CMC CPU board back around then (the old "hold your nose and apply propane torch to the back of the board" approach). Cheers, Chuck From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Sep 16 23:12:13 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 00:12:13 -0400 Subject: looking for a book on monitor theory In-Reply-To: <200509170354.j8H3sXG3037613@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200509170412.j8H4C9YG028823@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: > Purpose: the investigate the possibility of modifying > a recent multisync to sync down to TV frequencies. Eeek! ... Personally I think it would be easier to find an old TV-rate monitor and repair it, even if you have to wind replacement transformers yourself. But anyway..." This may not be all that hard. In fact, the early NEC "multisync" monitors DID this, as they came stock from the factory. CGA, MCGA, EGA and VGA. They even came with 9-pin to 15-pin adapters to deal with the two different connectors in use. I'm not sure that current monitors still do it in their "stock" configuration, BUT I WOULD NOT RULE OUT THE POSSIBILITY THAT SOME MIGHT. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 16 23:37:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 21:37:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? In-Reply-To: <20050916150931.K716@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > Up at Apex today, this is what I saw, part 1: > > http://wps.com/temp/CMC1.jpg > http://wps.com/temp/CMC2.jpg > http://wps.com/temp/CMC3.jpg > > It's a 12-bit machine, but big odd non-DEC-looking boards. It's > 7400 TTL, with 1974 and 1973 dated-coded chips. Hmm, front panel is definitely PDP-8-ish-looking. Worth saving regardless of condition, if you think you might be able to restore it (certainly possible with the right amount of time and inclination). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 23:46:06 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 23:46:06 -0500 Subject: looking for a book on monitor theory In-Reply-To: <200509170412.j8H4C9YG028823@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200509170354.j8H3sXG3037613@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200509170412.j8H4C9YG028823@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: On 9/16/05, Barry Watzman wrote: > > Purpose: the investigate the possibility of modifying > > a recent multisync to sync down to TV frequencies. > This may not be all that hard. In fact, the early NEC "multisync" monitors > DID this, as they came stock from the factory. CGA, MCGA, EGA and VGA. > They even came with 9-pin to 15-pin adapters to deal with the two different > connectors in use. Any multisync that worked with non-flickerfixed Amigas can do this (sync to 15.5KHz). Here's a long list... http://www.best-electronics-ca.com/monadapt.htm Back in the day, I know a lot of Amiga owners who had or wanted to have an NEC 3d. -ethan From Tim at Rikers.org Sat Sep 17 01:43:24 2005 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 00:43:24 -0600 Subject: Looking for info/software/anything for 9-track adapter In-Reply-To: <8B6AD0703AC.0000054Etubastuff@inbox.com> References: <8B6AD0703AC.0000054Etubastuff@inbox.com> Message-ID: <432BBB0C.3040504@Rikers.org> I have an ATC16: http://www.idbcorp.com/atc16.html Which seems to have been fairly popular. I can't find the software for the card though. =( It's been quite some time since I used it. However, there is a linux driver for this board that worked with some realy old kernel. I've not tried to forward port it. Here's one mirror: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/kernel/misc-cards/cipher.tar.gz If anyone has the dos/windows atc-16 drivers or manual, I'd appreciate a copy. I purchased them with the card. but that was around 1989 and I can't find them now. Chuck Guzis wrote: > Howdy list, > > I've just picked up a Computer Logics PCTD III 9-track tape drive ISA > adapter board. It has a 68-pin D-sub socket on the mounting bracket for > connection to a Pertec interface drive (I've got a brand new Fujitsu > M2444AC). > > My problem is that I have no documentation or software at all for this > thing. I called Chi Corporation to see what they have for it and they said > that they've long since disposed of any information on the card. The only > thing that the guy at Chi could remember is that it doesn't work with faster > CPUs. > > So I'm stuck for any information on this board. I'm looking for either copy > of software or technical documentation for the card. My intent is to write > either a Linux or XP driver for this thing and I'll be happy to share the > results of my work. > > Can anyone help out? > > Thanks much! > Chuck Guzis > Sydex, Inc. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 17 01:30:58 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 23:30:58 -0700 Subject: looking for a book on monitor theory In-Reply-To: References: <200509170354.j8H3sXG3037613@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200509170412.j8H4C9YG028823@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <200509162330580797.02FC5CFE@10.0.0.252> On 9/16/2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: >Here's a long list... > >http://www.best-electronics-ca.com/monadapt.htm Do any of the monitors on the list qualify as being of "recent" manufacture? I don't recognize any that are more recent than about 12-13 years. Here's a very long list of monitors with sync capabilities from the X11 monitor database that might provide a few more candidates: http://linorg.cirp.usp.br/Conectiva8/conectiva/cncimage/usr/X11R6/share/Xconfigurator/MonitorsDB Cheers, Chuck From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 17 07:58:34 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 08:58:34 -0400 Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies Message-ID: <432C12FA.nail63211JODL@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> I used to be more on top of CP/M archives on the net, but I haven't kept up in the past few years. I have images of several hundred 8" CP/M software, including original distribution disks and a lot of stuff pirated in the 70's/early 80's. I also have maybe 100 more 8" floppies with CP/M related stuff that ought to be archived. A decade or two ago I would image these other floppies myself but I'm no longer with the free time to do these activities. The floppies I have already imaged are available on the net at ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/cpm/ Most of the images reside in cpm.zip, in a format where each physical sector is mapped to the image, resulting in a 256256 byte image. For the floppies that are in CP/M file format, there are "*.cpmdir" files that list the individual files on the disk. There are also "*.index" files that say what was on the floppy label. Are there any takers for the remaining 100+ CP/M floppies? Tim. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 17 09:30:20 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 10:30:20 -0400 Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? Message-ID: <0IMY004F9TKGS7YB@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Computer Machinery Corporation? > From: Vintage Computer Festival > Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 21:37:01 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > >> Up at Apex today, this is what I saw, part 1: >> >> http://wps.com/temp/CMC1.jpg >> http://wps.com/temp/CMC2.jpg >> http://wps.com/temp/CMC3.jpg >> >> It's a 12-bit machine, but big odd non-DEC-looking boards. It's >> 7400 TTL, with 1974 and 1973 dated-coded chips. > >Hmm, front panel is definitely PDP-8-ish-looking. Worth saving regardless >of condition, if you think you might be able to restore it (certainly >possible with the right amount of time and inclination). > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival It's definately a PDP-8 clone and actually pretty decent. Actually saw one in use back around '81. It would be fun getting one of those going again, wrong coast though. If memory serves they (DCC) also did a 16bit machine cloned after a different platform. Allison From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Sep 17 09:35:40 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 10:35:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Hmm, front panel is definitely PDP-8-ish-looking. Worth saving regardless > of condition, if you think you might be able to restore it (certainly > possible with the right amount of time and inclination). Or as parts to keep the few survivors going. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sat Sep 17 11:18:51 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 11:18:51 -0500 Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies In-Reply-To: <432C12FA.nail63211JODL@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200509171628.j8HGSF8N051731@keith.ezwind.net> I can't do the imaging right now either, but put me in the list for taking them if nobody else wants them. I can definitely hang onto them. Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa > Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2005 7:59 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies ... > Are there any takers for the remaining 100+ CP/M floppies? > > Tim. From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat Sep 17 11:25:08 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 09:25:08 -0700 Subject: Datapoint 3300 and DEC VT06 terminals Message-ID: <000901c5bba4$710a53a0$0300a8c0@downstairs2> I am doing a bit of research on Computer Terminal Corporation terminals and I am looking for a picture of the Datapoint 3300. I understand that CTC OEMed the terminal to many companies. I have found references to the VT06 being the same as the Datapoint 3300. I also found a HP document that list the HP 2600A as be compatible with the 3300. Can anyone clarify this. The designer of the SWTPC CT-1024 Terminal, Ed Colle, had worked at Datapoint on video terminals. My area of interest is SWTPC 6800 computers and they have an interesting connection with Datapoint. Both were located in San Antonio, Texas. When SWTPC selected a computer to run their business they selected a Datapoint 2200. They liked the way the machine booted up and did not require a front panel with switches. The SWTPC 6800 did not have front panel switches and lights. It booted up with a monitor ROM. I have some interesting notes from Gary Kay, the designer of the SWTPC 6800 here. (And a good photo of the Datapoint 2200) http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/History/SWTPC_History.htm Michael Holley From tomj at wps.com Sat Sep 17 11:37:31 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 09:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? In-Reply-To: <20050916223624.83495.qmail@web81302.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050916223624.83495.qmail@web81302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050917093652.A716@fiche.wps.com> On Fri, 16 Sep 2005, William Maddox wrote: > These are the machines I told you about a couple > of weeks ago. They are relabelled Digital Computer > Controls D-112, clones of the PDP8/I. Bruce Ray has > a few pictures up on his website: > > http://www.simulogics.com/nostalgia/DCC/dcc.htm D'OH! Sheesh, am I getting senile already!? Yes, you did, and I now recall. How weird. From tomj at wps.com Sat Sep 17 11:42:59 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 09:42:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050917093924.L716@fiche.wps.com> I will "soon" go back and reevaluate the CMC machines. I most definitely do NOT want such a project, not in a million years, but if they look salvagable and cheap I will drag home the carcasses, hose them off, and expect one of you other turkeys to take them off my hands. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sat Sep 17 11:57:33 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 18:57:33 +0200 Subject: VAX 4000/705a SCSI Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050917185502.02e356c8@pop.xs4all.nl> I'm sure some of you guys have the exact answer to this : I've got a VAX 4000/705a without any disks. I could of course get some DSSI disks but I would rather have some SCSI disks attached to it. My question : how can I make this VAX SCSI able ? And second question, can anyone help me get any needed hardware to for this ? Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 17 11:43:32 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 09:43:32 -0700 Subject: Datapoint 3300 Message-ID: The service manual for the 3300 in on bitsavers under datapoint A line drawing of the case is on page 3-41 I have a brochure and the service manual for the HP 2600. From memory, it looks the same. Will dig it out and scan it. From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Sat Sep 17 12:00:42 2005 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 11:00:42 -0600 Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? References: <200509162355.j8GNtTjO023379@onyx.spiritone.com> <20050916185011.D716@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <029001c5bba9$5737a9a0$367cfea9@newhare> Hint: they are DCC-112 computers. Search for Digital Computer Controls, or DCC, Fairfield New Jersey; PDP-8, PDP-11 and Nova look-alikes. Eventually involved in lawsuit(s) for copyright violations and bought by Data General in the '70s. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Cc: Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 7:51 PM Subject: Re: Computer Machinery Corporation? >> Subject: Re: Computer Machinery Corporation? > > Does anyone know anything about them? My sorry ass can't find > anything on them via Google, but it's a terrible name to search > for. > > > There's a "CMC" that made a lot of electronic instrumentation and > process-control counters (dekatrons, counters, etc). Could even be > the same company with a slight name change. > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 17 12:01:29 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 10:01:29 -0700 Subject: Datapoint 3300 Message-ID: found the binder.. The HP 2600A is a Datapoint 3300. There was even a brochure from Datapoint in the binder along with an HP brochure. FWIW, the HP 2615A is a Beehive Mini-Bee (also in the same binder) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 17 12:04:07 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 13:04:07 -0400 Subject: Datapoint 3300 and DEC VT06 terminals Message-ID: <0IMZ006CE0QVWWV4@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Datapoint 3300 and DEC VT06 terminals > From: "Michael Holley" > Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 09:25:08 -0700 > To: > >I am doing a bit of research on Computer Terminal Corporation terminals and >I am looking for a picture of the Datapoint 3300. I understand that CTC >OEMed the terminal to many companies. I have found references to the VT06 >being the same as the Datapoint 3300. I also found a HP document that list >the HP 2600A as be compatible with the 3300. Can anyone clarify this. > >The designer of the SWTPC CT-1024 Terminal, Ed Colle, had worked at >Datapoint on video terminals. > >My area of interest is SWTPC 6800 computers and they have an interesting >connection with Datapoint. Both were located in San Antonio, Texas. When >SWTPC selected a computer to run their business they selected a Datapoint >2200. They liked the way the machine booted up and did not require a front >panel with switches. The SWTPC 6800 did not have front panel switches and >lights. It booted up with a monitor ROM. > >I have some interesting notes from Gary Kay, the designer of the SWTPC 6800 >here. (And a good photo of the Datapoint 2200) >http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/History/SWTPC_History.htm > >Michael Holley >From a pure economic point of view the front pannel was a very expensive addition and for the micro world it easily doubled (or more) the hardware for a base system. Additionally the hardware was both bulky (switches) and even in volume costly. SWTP by going with a rom monitor made a simpler machine with fewer parts. The cost to produce was lower and they also gained in that when roms, and other digital parts became cheaper they could pass the saving or reap the profit where switches and leds didn't drop in cost nearly as fast. There were a bunch of subtle evolutionary ideas in the SWTP systems that were widely adopted such as standard IO types and addresses. The effect being the user was less likely to have to configure the hardware and more likely to find new software [especially for similar but not identical systems] that were compatable. All of this was an outgrowth of how Motorola supported the 6800 vs Intel vision. The offset was with a front pannel troubleshooting a sick system was often easier but was an expensive artifact when not needed. Even though 6800 and 6502 based systems where not my forte' I studied them early on to see why they were so pervasive and largely successful. I feel that their break with the front pannel concept was a jump ahead for them. As a result the next system (ca1977) I'd gone with was a NS* horizon to get away from the switches followed closely with Netronics Explorer8085 for the resident rom monitor for S100 diagnostic abilities. Allison From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 17 12:09:28 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 10:09:28 -0700 Subject: ISO Datapoint 2200 service manuals Message-ID: As long as the subject of Datapoint has come up, I'd like to ask that people keep an eye out for 2200 and related service manuals. Several people are trying to restore them right now, and locating the service docs has been difficult. I would assume they're of the same detail as the one I have for the 3300 terminal. From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Sep 17 12:33:54 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 13:33:54 -0400 Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies In-Reply-To: <200509171703.j8HH2xFZ046795@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200509171733.j8HHXoYG026624@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> While images are nice, for CP/M there is another alternative that may be more widely useful and easier, although it's less historically accurate. That is just to copy the files over to MS-DOS disks, where they can then exist in folders on a modern hard drive or be put on CDs or DVDs. I can really see no advantage to a strict "image", as long as one has the files. The issue that this leaves out is the system tracks, but that is easily dealt with: Runs "SYSGEN", exit, and then do a "SAVE 34 SYSTEM.COM" and you have the system tracks as a disk file in a format that is easily restored simply using SYSGEN. This method also has some actual advantages, in terms of being able to actually use the software with a CP/M emulator on a PC. Since I'm not aware of any CP/M programs that did copy protection or any other type of manipulation that would require an exact disk image, I don't really see the drawback of this approach. From ceby2 at csc.com Sat Sep 17 13:43:43 2005 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 19:43:43 +0100 Subject: Help scrounging in England In-Reply-To: <200509171701.j8HH11SX046746@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Folks, I've been posted to England for a bit, and I wondered if maybe one or two of the UK list members would give tips on good sources for systems and components in the South East. I collect mainly IBM midrange, Atari and UNIX flavours, but I'm toying with learning PDP11. Are there any good swap-meets, favorite skips, etc. you could clue me into? Thanks, Colin Eby -- ceby2 at csc.com -- tel. 01252 813921 -- mobl. 07917 643 322 CSC - EMEA Northern Region - C&SI -Technology Architect ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is a PRIVATE message. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete without copying and kindly advise us by e-mail of the mistake in delivery. NOTE: Regardless of content, this e-mail shall not operate to bind CSC to any order or other contract unless pursuant to explicit written agreement or government initiative expressly permitting the use of e-mail for such purpose. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 17 11:42:24 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 09:42:24 -0700 Subject: Looking for info/software/anything for 9-track adapter In-Reply-To: <432BBB0C.3040504@Rikers.org> References: <8B6AD0703AC.0000054Etubastuff@inbox.com> <432BBB0C.3040504@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <200509170942240717.00385C21@10.0.0.252> On 9/17/2005, Tim Riker wrote: >I have an ATC16: > >http://www.idbcorp.com/atc16.html Thanks, Tim--I'll have a peek. Looks like a much better (but earlier) card than my Computer Logics PCTD. Has a bigger FIFO, for one. The CL has a 512x9 AMD 7201 FIFO and while it fits into a 16 bit ISA slot, uses only the IRQ lines from the "short side", so it's basically an 8 bit card. Has a Xilinx FPGA and a bunch 74HCT00 series glue on it, mostly buffers and latches. 8 position unlabeled DIP switch--the tech guy at Chi said he thought it was to set base I/O port address, but I think it also sets DMA and IRQ. 11 address lines are connected, so there's no memory-mapped I/O either. I wonder if mine will even handle the data rate from the Fujitsu M2444AC drive that it's hooked to. Thanks, Chuck From ms at vaxcluster.de Sat Sep 17 15:10:42 2005 From: ms at vaxcluster.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 22:10:42 +0200 Subject: VAX 4000/705a SCSI In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050917185502.02e356c8@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050917185502.02e356c8@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <432C7842.9020308@vaxcluster.de> (Sorry: most of the time - no: always! - i only lurk on this list, reading. I'll promise to do better, one day...) Stefan wrote: > I'm sure some of you guys have the exact answer to this : > I've got a VAX 4000/705a without any disks. > I could of course get some DSSI disks but I would rather have some SCSI > disks attached to it. My question : how can I make this VAX SCSI able ? Give me the cpu board, and i give you a (lousy) SCSI-controller... 8-) No, seriously: i would go dssi, it's way cooler. If you need a disk or two, i could help out. > > And second question, can anyone help me get any needed hardware to for > this ? Whatever you need, just ask. I'm in southern Germany, so shipping things should be doable. I have a few spares for my 4000/500, which should do. Greetings Michael > > Stefan. > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > -- Michael Schneider email: ms at vaxcluster.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de "Man muss nicht immer alles glauben was stimmt" From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Sep 17 15:16:16 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 13:16:16 -0700 Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation? References: <20050916150931.K716@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <432C7990.E2293395@cs.ubc.ca> On the other hand, there's something to be said for taking a beat-up piece of trash and getting it going again. ... go for that post-apocalypse look. You mention that there is no memory, however if you look at the brochure/advert: http://www.simulogics.com/nostalgia/DCC/DCC112H_03.jpg the circuit board complement (4 or 5 boards) looks similar to what is in your photo: http://wps.com/temp/CMC-2.jpg And the text at the bottom of the brochure/advert of the fast model: http://www.simulogics.com/nostalgia/DCC/DCC112H_01.jpg says semiconductor memory was used in that model. Could it be there was semicon memory there instead of core? Maybe there is a chance (?) it is a 'complete' processor. (I like the tube/valve tossed into the bottom of one of them.) Tom Jennings wrote: > > Up at Apex today, this is what I saw, part 1: > > http://wps.com/temp/CMC1.jpg > http://wps.com/temp/CMC2.jpg > http://wps.com/temp/CMC3.jpg > > It's a 12-bit machine, but big odd non-DEC-looking boards. It's > 7400 TTL, with 1974 and 1973 dated-coded chips. > > Both machines are ruined. Sacked in mud, probably for a decade. > Little rust though, looks like damp, then blown-in dust or silt. > Boards are possibly recoverable. > > No memory or any accessories within 10 feet, I think they were > buried under junk and just unearthed (Don is going through the > yard). > > The switch register is 12 bits, and a LINK light, so I assume > it's a pdp8 clone. Could be wrong of course. From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Sep 17 17:56:41 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 15:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New updates to the Little Orphan Tomy Tutor site Message-ID: <200509172256.PAA15268@floodgap.com> New updates have been made to the Little Orphan Tomy Tutor site. The Tomy Tutor is an American home computer released ca. 1983 with strong hardware commonalities to the TI 99/4A. The Little Orphan focuses on the American Tomy Tutor, along with its Japanese cousins (the Pyuuta series), and offers a catalogue of hardware and software, programming information, technical documentation and links to related sites. Here's what's new or changed: - Pyuuta Jr. entry, featuring a complete description of this Japanese console version -- yes, I finally got one! Includes pictures, scans from the manual, and screen grabs of its surprisingly robust and user-friendly interface (for 1983, that is). - Stub entry for the Grandstand Tutors, the vanishingly rare UK variant. - New emulation section. This includes a special section on using the MESS Tomy Tutor driver (focused more towards the Mac, since I'm a Mac user, but with help for Windows users as well) and needed firmware and dumps, intended only for those with a legal right to the hardware, of course. Also includes TutorEm, the first true emulator (Windows-only), and incorporates Tutti as a museum piece (though people who do not own a Tomy Tutor can still use it to legally simulate the Tutor without ROMs). Alas, with this site release, I have chosen to officially freeze Tutti, the first Tomy Tutor simulator of any kind, at 0.3. It will still be left for download indefinitely because of its unique legal status, however. - Updated Incomplete Catalogue. Improved screenshots for many games, new shots for many more (including the believed-unreleased Gajigoji and Jack In The Box), and additional stub entries for hardware to come later. All of the American clone games have also been matched up to the Japanese originals. Also included links for the MSX and CoCo ports! - Additional Pyuuta screen shots. - Updated my personal trade list and the General and Pyuuta pages' histories, and made various custodial changes. Have fun! http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/tomy/ / READY -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I'm still right. ------- From fire at dls.net Sat Sep 17 21:47:15 2005 From: fire at dls.net (Bradley Slavik) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 21:47:15 -0500 Subject: Kaypro boot disk. In-Reply-To: <200509171701.j8HH11SS046746@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: A colleague of mine is looking for a boot disk for a Kaypro 4 '84. He says : "I have a Kaypro 4 (83), Kaypro 4(84), and a Kaypro 10. The boot disks for all three are mutually incompatible. What I still need is a boot disk for Kaypro 4(84)." (These are 5.25 inch floppies, of course. An actual disk would be great, but he says that if somebody wanted to send a disk image, he could work with that, as long as he knew what program was used to create it.) Can anyone email me images of all boot disks or direct me to appropriate web site? I will reimburse postage/disk costs if someone wishes to send physical disks instead of emailing images. Braldey Slavik From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 17 22:42:26 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 04:42:26 +0100 Subject: Help scrounging in England In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <432CE222.5050209@yahoo.co.uk> > I've been posted to England for a bit, and I wondered if maybe one or two > of the UK list members would give tips on good sources for systems and > components in the South East. I collect mainly IBM midrange, Atari and > UNIX flavours, but I'm toying with learning PDP11. Are there any good > swap-meets, favorite skips, etc. you could clue me into? Whereabouts in the south east? Universities are pretty good if you can make a few contacts there (although the good old stuff is pretty much drying up now). With a bit of googling you'll probably find a freecycle list close to you too - I've seen things crop up there before. Unfortunately the UK doesn't seem to have the equivalent of US salvage/surplus places :-( cheers Jules From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Sep 17 22:57:26 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 23:57:26 -0400 Subject: looking for HP1650A boot disk image Message-ID: Hi, Sorry to bother you again. Last time I got a 1650B version 2.xx boot disk image by asking here. Now I need a 1650A version 1.xx boot disk image. I would appreciate for help here. Thank you. Yes, I did google job and I am still doing it. vax, 9000 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 17 15:03:50 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 13:03:50 -0700 Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies In-Reply-To: <200509171733.j8HHXoYG026624@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200509171733.j8HHXoYG026624@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <200509171303500451.00F0C5C5@10.0.0.252> On 9/17/2005, Barry Watzman wrote: >Since I'm not aware of any CP/M programs that did copy protection or any >other type of manipulation that would require an exact disk image, I don't >really see the drawback of this approach. Excellent point! Since the CP/M world was so fragmented among hardware vendors, manufacturers wanting to protect their software simply tied it to a specific host hardware (e.g., SuperCalc 2 special trade-up edition for the Osborne). There may possibly be an exception for one of the very common platforms, such as TRS-80, but I'm not aware of one. Cheers, Chuck From Tim at Rikers.org Sun Sep 18 00:58:11 2005 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 23:58:11 -0600 Subject: Looking for info/software/anything for 9-track adapter In-Reply-To: <200509170942240717.00385C21@10.0.0.252> References: <8B6AD0703AC.0000054Etubastuff@inbox.com> <432BBB0C.3040504@Rikers.org> <200509170942240717.00385C21@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <432D01F3.4020905@Rikers.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/17/2005, Tim Riker wrote: >>I have an ATC16: >> >>http://www.idbcorp.com/atc16.html > > Thanks, Tim--I'll have a peek. > > Looks like a much better (but earlier) card than my Computer Logics PCTD. Has a bigger FIFO, for one. The CL has a 512x9 AMD 7201 FIFO and while it fits into a 16 bit ISA slot, uses only the IRQ lines from the "short side", so it's basically an 8 bit card. Has a Xilinx FPGA and a bunch 74HCT00 series glue on it, mostly buffers and latches. 8 position unlabeled DIP switch--the tech guy at Chi said he thought it was to set base I/O port address, but I think it also sets DMA and IRQ. 11 address lines are connected, so there's no memory-mapped I/O either. > > I wonder if mine will even handle the data rate from the Fujitsu M2444AC drive that it's hooked to. IDB also makes a PCI card though I never used one of those. I could stream over 600k/s from my M990 with the atc16. so this card held up fine. That's as fast as the M990 would run. non-stop at 6250 bpi. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Sep 18 01:06:44 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 01:06:44 -0500 Subject: Looking for info/software/anything for 9-track adapter In-Reply-To: <432D01F3.4020905@Rikers.org> References: <8B6AD0703AC.0000054Etubastuff@inbox.com> <432BBB0C.3040504@Rikers.org> <200509170942240717.00385C21@10.0.0.252> <432D01F3.4020905@Rikers.org> Message-ID: On 9/18/05, Tim Riker wrote: > IDB also makes a PCI card though I never used one of those. I could > stream over 600k/s from my M990 with the atc16. so this card held up > fine. That's as fast as the M990 would run. non-stop at 6250 bpi. Wow... that's a lot of bits... I never got a "modern" Cipher drive to stream at 6250 on our old VAX. The TU80 was one thing, but never the Cipher. -ethan From Tim at Rikers.org Sun Sep 18 01:25:12 2005 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 00:25:12 -0600 Subject: Looking for info/software/anything for 9-track adapter In-Reply-To: References: <8B6AD0703AC.0000054Etubastuff@inbox.com> <432BBB0C.3040504@Rikers.org> <200509170942240717.00385C21@10.0.0.252> <432D01F3.4020905@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <432D0848.6010704@Rikers.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/18/05, Tim Riker wrote: >>IDB also makes a PCI card though I never used one of those. I could >>stream over 600k/s from my M990 with the atc16. so this card held up >>fine. That's as fast as the M990 would run. non-stop at 6250 bpi. > > Wow... that's a lot of bits... I never got a "modern" Cipher drive to > stream at 6250 on our old VAX. The TU80 was one thing, but never the > Cipher. heh. Yeah. I was reading in a few hundred tapes at the time onto 386 and 486 systems. The trick was getting the harddrive subsystem to handle writes at that speed. Just getting multiple gigabytes of storage on a PC was a major challenge at the time. When they all finished loading (days later) we backed them up to Exebyte 8500 8mm drives in a matter of hours. 1 5G tape held the (compressed) data from over 75 9-track tapes. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Sep 17 21:42:10 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 02:42:10 +0000 Subject: Kinda off topic but fitting, rare model 20" TV find of day. In-Reply-To: References: <200509171701.j8HH11SX046746@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050918063544.WFTD25800.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> RCA Proscan 20" (PS20110, manufactured 1991) Wait, don't delete this email! :) Chassis CTC168 which is same chassis as famillar CTC169 commonly in 27", 31", 32", 35" and 36" CRTs also proj models of 42", 52" and 61" models and very long lived, reliable with few easily resolveable problems (good money makers). Now, this is not your run of mill 20" TV. These RCA 20" models of any models I do service of all kinds of RCA chassis except there is at least 2 models I heard about with particular CTC168 chassis which is only for 20". I've not seen CTC168 in my whole 3 years of TV service, even I have done so many TVs and projectors with CTC169 chassis and all different kinds of newer and older ones with types of RCA chassis. Except this one! The features is LOADED for a 20" TV imagine loaded Chevy landyatcht of luxurious stuff in an Omni (Rabbit look-like). Two RF inputs, One RF out, Two video inputs and one Video output, S-video, stereo ampified outputs along with internal stereo for set of 4 speakers total driven by either 5W to 10W ampifiers (most of others usually muddy .5W to passable 1W stereo, 4 more unampified audio outputs. and I think one or two sets of audio inputs. This is a TV basically a features of a larger cousins of CTC169 for direct-view CRTs and 3 CRT projectors. What a mouthful for a old rare model 20" TV. The extreme rarity there is a reason; back then was high price for 20", appox $500 so this particular models. Compared to 1990/1991 19"/20" of any makes/models typically run for 200 for plain janes sh*t to high 250 for decent models with few features, except Sony that had some features with outragous 300-500 tag!). I talked to Jack, our shop boss and did say had one CTC168 in for repair years ago and that was only one. For me, this tv is like a find of a day. :) Akin to finding a PDP 8 on the ground with trash beside a rowhouse street very near downtown. :) Back to your "exciting" regular programming, thanks and I still enjoy your "text programmings" chatter. Back on topic: Won L40SX (PS/2 386SX 20 laptop) on ebay, fairly complete: power brick (Yes, a BRICK), quick charger brick, external keypad and few booklets. Replaced LCD lamp successfully, old one failed to light by extreme age. Took a IBM 4MB SIMM modified with correct sensing pins and chewed off a SIMM socket's nub to get 8MB instead of 6MB installed. L40SX takes deep middle notch 72 pin SIMMs. Except most decent parity SIMMs can be used with proper modifcations except 8MB had to be single sided and is max L40SX can take for max of 18MB. To do list: rebuild battery pack and replace two internal batteries for cmos and standby power. Cheers, Wizard From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Sep 18 05:34:58 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 06:34:58 -0400 Subject: Kaypro boot disk. Message-ID: <20050918103457.NYKF10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 21:47 17/09/2005 -0500, you wrote: >A colleague of mine is looking for a boot disk for a Kaypro 4 '84. He >says : > >"I have a Kaypro 4 (83), Kaypro 4(84), and a Kaypro 10. >The boot disks for all three are mutually incompatible. >What I still need is a boot disk for Kaypro 4(84)." > >(These are 5.25 inch floppies, of course. An actual disk would be great, >but he says that if somebody wanted to send a disk image, he could work >with that, as long as he knew what program was used to create it.) > >Can anyone email me images of all boot disks or direct me to appropriate >web site? I will reimburse postage/disk costs if someone wishes to send >physical disks instead of emailing images. > >Braldey Slavik I have the Kaypro4(*84) system disk images on my site. Look under "disk/software images" near the end of the main page. The disks can be created with my ImageDisk program which is available on the same page. NOTE that I just fixed the link to KAYPRO4.ZIP which was apparently broken - it should work now. Dave PS: If you would like to return the favor, please send me ImageDisk images of the Kaypro 4 (83) and Kaypro 10 boot disks as I do not have them yet. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Sep 18 06:27:58 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 07:27:58 -0400 Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies In-Reply-To: <200509171303500451.00F0C5C5@10.0.0.252> References: <200509171733.j8HHXoYG026624@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <200509171303500451.00F0C5C5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <432D4F3E.nailP612I6Y2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Since I'm not aware of any CP/M programs that did copy protection or any > other type of manipulation that would require an exact disk image Well, some of the disk images are not of "plain" CP/M floppies but are boot disks, original CP/M distribution disks from Digital Research, diagnostic disks, ISIS disks, etc. So I am guilty of oversimplifying things to say that they are all CP/M floppies. Tim. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Sep 18 11:11:41 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 09:11:41 -0700 Subject: TSX Plus... In-Reply-To: <002f01c5baf7$647cdc00$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200509160812.34697.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <002f01c5baf7$647cdc00$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200509180911.42348.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 16 September 2005 12:46, Jay West wrote: > Lyle wrote... > > > I expect to have the time within the next couple of weeks to have all the > > TSX-Plus goodies available online. > > Lyle, I was wondering if you'd be opposed to me mirroring those files to > the classiccmp server (preferred), or at the least if you'd mind if I put a > non-mirrored copy there. You can certainly fill out the form and save personal copies. One of the conditions for release of TSX-Plus was that I do reasonable diligence to insure that the files are not shared without agreeing to the "non-commercial license". I'm hopeful that folks will honor the spirit of the agreement. It is so seldom that vendors release their products to the hobbiest public (worries about legal issues, competition, etc.). It's good that there's no annual "renewal" required - per VAX software - or Mentec's rather irritating attitude, etc. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Sep 18 11:51:21 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 11:51:21 -0500 Subject: TSX Plus... References: <200509160812.34697.lbickley@bickleywest.com><002f01c5baf7$647cdc00$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200509180911.42348.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <004401c5bc71$342e19d0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Lyle wrote... > You can certainly fill out the form and save personal copies. One of the > conditions for release of TSX-Plus was that I do reasonable diligence to > insure that the files are not shared without agreeing to the > "non-commercial > license". I'm hopeful that folks will honor the spirit of the agreement. I will certainly honor the letter AND the spirit of the agreement. I will sign the agreement and I won't make it available to anyone else. I'm excited about S&H helping out the hobbyist community and wil respect their wishes. > It > is so seldom that vendors release their products to the hobbiest public > (worries about legal issues, competition, etc.). It's good that there's > no > annual "renewal" required - per VAX software - or Mentec's rather > irritating > attitude, etc. My concern is that the stuff not be lost for posterity. S&H thought they had their copies secure, but they in fact lost the source code, correct? My concern is that there be an off-site backup for this stuff, in case what happens to S&H happens to you. Just sending copies out to hobbyists may not ensure the stuff survives, as sending it out to paying customers obviously didn't (or almost anyways, given the interest here). Common practice on the net is arranging for mirrors (which don't have to be public). But as long as the stuff is stored in multiple locations that should probably suffice. Regards, Jay West From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Sep 18 14:53:42 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 12:53:42 -0700 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! Message-ID: <200509181253.42489.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I recently sold an item using the "Vintage Computer Marketplace" [ http://marketplace.vintage.org/ ] I recommended buyers us check, money order or PayPal. The buyer was familiar with BidPay - and chose to use it instead... BidPay rejected the first payment - as it didn't recognize the auction - and said they to not pay "individual" to "individual" transactions. Both the buyer and I responded to BidPay that the "Vintage Computer Marketplace" was a valid auction and payment should be honored. When the buyer tried again - the payment got rejected a second time. DON'T USE BIDPAY!!!! Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From vcf at siconic.com Sun Sep 18 15:36:35 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 13:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies In-Reply-To: <200509171733.j8HHXoYG026624@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Sep 2005, Barry Watzman wrote: > While images are nice, for CP/M there is another alternative that may be > more widely useful and easier, although it's less historically accurate. > That is just to copy the files over to MS-DOS disks, where they can then > exist in folders on a modern hard drive or be put on CDs or DVDs. I can > really see no advantage to a strict "image", as long as one has the files. > > The issue that this leaves out is the system tracks, but that is easily > dealt with: Runs "SYSGEN", exit, and then do a "SAVE 34 SYSTEM.COM" and you > have the system tracks as a disk file in a format that is easily restored > simply using SYSGEN. > > This method also has some actual advantages, in terms of being able to > actually use the software with a CP/M emulator on a PC. > > Since I'm not aware of any CP/M programs that did copy protection or any > other type of manipulation that would require an exact disk image, I don't > really see the drawback of this approach. The one main drawback is that this is not an accurate or appropriate way to create an image for historical preservation. For this reason I recommened against what you describe. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Sep 18 15:53:07 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 13:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <200509181253.42489.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Sep 2005, Lyle Bickley wrote: > I recently sold an item using the "Vintage Computer Marketplace" > [ http://marketplace.vintage.org/ ] I recommended buyers us check, money order > or PayPal. The buyer was familiar with BidPay - and chose to use it > instead... > > BidPay rejected the first payment - as it didn't recognize the auction - and > said they to not pay "individual" to "individual" transactions. > > Both the buyer and I responded to BidPay that the "Vintage Computer > Marketplace" was a valid auction and payment should be honored. > > When the buyer tried again - the payment got rejected a second time. > > DON'T USE BIDPAY!!!! BidPay is Western Union's internet payment service. I had a similar problem a long time ago in a similar situation. BidPay refused to allow a person-to-person payment. I got a customer service manager on the phone and ripped him a new asshole. I'll never use BidPay OR Western Union for that matter for any reason ever! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 18 12:10:25 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 10:10:25 -0700 Subject: Looking for info/software/anything for 9-track adapter In-Reply-To: <432D01F3.4020905@Rikers.org> References: <8B6AD0703AC.0000054Etubastuff@inbox.com> <432BBB0C.3040504@Rikers.org> <200509170942240717.00385C21@10.0.0.252> <432D01F3.4020905@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <200509181010250449.057858CC@10.0.0.252> >IDB also makes a PCI card though I never used one of those. I could >stream over 600k/s from my M990 with the atc16. so this card held up >fine. That's as fast as the M990 would run. non-stop at 6250 bpi. I built up two versions of an unbuffered controller; the first using 74LS00 "glue" chips on an ISA proto board and the second, a PCI card using 82C55AC's (10 MHz 8255's); one for control and the other for data. The ISA board could not keep up using DMA or programmed I/O with the Fujitsu, which was firing out data a bit faster than 1 usec. per byte. The PCI board could just barely keep up (this was using 32-bit code; I suspect that the board has a few too many wait states buried in the FPGA used for interfacing). The Fuji drive is of traditional reel-to-reel open construction, and while it has a high-speed mode, I don't think it could be called a "streamer" in the sense of the Cipher. It's built like a battleship and weighs probably close to 150 lbs. If I can't make heads or tails of the Computer Logics board or obtain another board with similar functionality, I'll probably move next to a dedicated microcontroller (I've got a RabbitCore 2000 kit around here somewhere) and a USB 2.0 interface to the PC. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 18 15:20:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:20:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP Integral Modem Message-ID: The good news : I've got the HP Datacomm program, and it seems to work fine with that HP82915 modem board that I mentioned last week. Amazingly, then, the kermit supplied by HP for the Integral does not support the modem. Hmmm... One to watch for if you're trying to get one of these modems to behave. Alsa, from what I can see the Datacomm program is user friendly (in other words, hacker hostile). It only lets me set 300 or 1200 baud (why not 110? A 300 baud modem will work at lower baud rates). It only uses the modem in 'originate' mode. It does pulse dialling, not DTMF (why???) But it seems to work. My only problem now is getting something for it to talk to. I have no intention of using it on anything other than a bit of cable on my bench, so approval is not a problem. Maybe I'll just dig out an AM7910 chip and start soldering... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 18 15:16:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:16:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP DIO GPIO card 'options' Message-ID: I've just boaght what appears to be a brand new HP 98622 GPIO card. This is the 16 bit parallel I/O card for the DIO bus, as is used on the 9836, etc It came with a user manual. This was a lot more use than I expected it to be as it includes a schematic. It's a fairly thin manual, but full of information. One interesting diagram at the back shows the correspondence betweene the DIP switches on this card and the links in the 98032 I/O module for the 9825... Anyway, it describes 4 'options' for this card. Each one was a particular cable -- one was the 50 pin Blue Ribbon plug to fit the card and bare wires on the other end. The other 3 were wired to connectors to fit the 9885 disk drive (9" floppy), a Multiprogrammer (I forget the number, but the one that didn't have an HPIB interface) and finally one for the 9866 printer. The manual does give the switch settings to use the board with each of these devices, but no wirelists of the cables. And amazigly I have all 3 of the listed peripherals. So my question is obvious. Does anyone have any of these cables and could 'buzz out' the wiring? -tony From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Sep 18 17:36:46 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 18:36:46 -0400 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <432DEBFE.70203@atarimuseum.com> Don't they also charge ridiculously high fee's too... Curt Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Sun, 18 Sep 2005, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > > >>I recently sold an item using the "Vintage Computer Marketplace" >>[ http://marketplace.vintage.org/ ] I recommended buyers us check, money order >>or PayPal. The buyer was familiar with BidPay - and chose to use it >>instead... >> >>BidPay rejected the first payment - as it didn't recognize the auction - and >>said they to not pay "individual" to "individual" transactions. >> >>Both the buyer and I responded to BidPay that the "Vintage Computer >>Marketplace" was a valid auction and payment should be honored. >> >>When the buyer tried again - the payment got rejected a second time. >> >>DON'T USE BIDPAY!!!! >> >> > >BidPay is Western Union's internet payment service. I had a similar >problem a long time ago in a similar situation. BidPay refused to allow >a person-to-person payment. I got a customer service manager on the phone >and ripped him a new asshole. I'll never use BidPay OR Western Union for >that matter for any reason ever! > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: 9/16/2005 From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 18 19:07:42 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:07:42 -0700 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <432DEBFE.70203@atarimuseum.com> References: <432DEBFE.70203@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: At 6:36 PM -0400 9/18/05, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >Don't they also charge ridiculously high fee's too... It's been a while since I used them, but as I recall they charge the person sending the money something like $8. Actually from that standpoint, for sellers, they probably work out better that PayPal, as PayPal charges the sellers. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Sun Sep 18 19:37:05 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:37:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050919003705.79043.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > It's been a while since I used them, but as I recall > they charge the > person sending the money something like $8. > Actually from that > standpoint, for sellers, they probably work out > better that PayPal, > as PayPal charges the sellers. > yea I believe thats the way they work, some ebay sellers love them, their payment requirements are typically "check, money order, bidpay NO paypal" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Sep 18 19:49:50 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:49:50 -0400 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! References: <20050919003705.79043.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003c01c5bcb4$0aa52f20$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2005 8:37 PM Subject: Re: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! > yea I believe thats the way they work, some ebay > sellers love them, their payment requirements are > typically "check, money order, bidpay NO paypal" > > > __________________________________________________ To be honest just about every auction I bid on takes Paypal and very few take Bidpay (something I have never used anyway). Atleast Paypal has verified addresses so you know you are sending a package to the persons house that is paying you. The fees are factored into the starting price or atleast the shipping/handling charges the seller hits you up for. From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Sep 18 19:52:51 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 20:52:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <003c01c5bcb4$0aa52f20$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: > To be honest just about every auction I bid on takes Paypal and very few > take Bidpay (something I have never used anyway). > Atleast Paypal has verified addresses so you know you are sending a package > to the persons house that is paying you For the record, probably a good quarter of the Paypal orders I get are UNVERIFIED addresses. I hate Paypal. And Bidpay for that matter. Cash - the most sincere form of payment. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sun Sep 18 20:21:51 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:21:51 -0400 Subject: FREE printers MPS-801 MPS-802 Juki6100 In-Reply-To: <200509171303500451.00F0C5C5@10.0.0.252> References: <200509171733.j8HHXoYG026624@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <200509171303500451.00F0C5C5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050918211856.044f7eb0@pop-server> I have four printers that were used on the Commodore 64 and will probably work fine on other old classic machines. They are dot matrix printers. They are rather old and I am unable to test them but have been told that they worked the last time they were used. They are FREE for the taking but they MUST BE PICKED UP in Spring Hill Florida (40 miles north of Tampa). Commodore MPS-801 Printer Commodore MPS-802 Printer (have two of these) Juki 6100 printer please respond to ygehrich at yahoo.com From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sun Sep 18 20:23:54 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:23:54 -0400 Subject: FREE Commodore 1541 disk drives (3) Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050918212306.044d8b50@pop-server> Subject: FREE Commodore 1541 disk drives (3) I have three Commodore 1541 disk drives that were used on the Commodore 64 computer back in the 80's. They are rather old and I am unable to test them but have been told that they worked the last time they were used. They are FREE for the taking but they must be picked up in Spring Hill Florida. please respond to ygehrich at yahoo.com From Mark at Misty.com Sun Sep 18 21:18:31 2005 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:18:31 -0400 Subject: VAX 4000/705a SCSI In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050917185502.02e356c8@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050917185502.02e356c8@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20050919021831.GA8629@lucky.misty.com> Hi, On Sat, Sep 17, 2005 at 06:57:33PM +0200, Stefan wrote: > I'm sure some of you guys have the exact answer to this : > I've got a VAX 4000/705a without any disks. > I could of course get some DSSI disks but I would rather have some > SCSI disks attached to it. My question : how can I make this VAX SCSI able ? > > And second question, can anyone help me get any needed hardware to for this > ? If this is like my VAX 4000/500 systems: QBUS "MSCP" (disk capable) SCSI controllers are hard to find and hundreds of dollars. The route I'm trying to go is I picked up some HSD30 controllers on Ebay, for $35-$45, which I can then supposedly connect regular SCSI disks to, though I haven't gotten things set up and working yet this way. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) voice: 215-591-3695 http://www.misty.com/ http://mail-cleaner.com/ From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sun Sep 18 21:51:09 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 19:51:09 -0700 Subject: Datapoint 3300 and DEC VT06 terminals Message-ID: <002501c5bcc5$02b87770$0300a8c0@downstairs2> >I am doing a bit of research on Computer Terminal Corporation terminals >and > I am looking for a picture of the Datapoint 3300. I found a good scan of an 8 page brochure on the Datapoint 3300 and clipped an image. Here a a work in progress on the TV Typewriter history. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/History/TVT_History.htm Michael Holley From tomj at wps.com Sun Sep 18 20:55:48 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 18:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Help scrounging in England In-Reply-To: <432CE222.5050209@yahoo.co.uk> References: <432CE222.5050209@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050918185501.S716@fiche.wps.com> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > Unfortunately the UK doesn't seem to have the equivalent of US > salvage/surplus places :-( WHAT!? How in HELL do you get through a week?! Where does it all go? From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 19 00:19:50 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI 8080 up for bid on VCM Message-ID: Jon Titus is auctioning his IMSAI 8080 on the Vintage Computer Marketplace: http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=2014 High bid as of now is $10! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Sep 19 00:20:09 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 06:20:09 +0100 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message William Donzelli wrote: > Cash - the most sincere form of payment. The only truly irrevocable one too. Well, aside from maybe a bank transfer (BACS/CHAPS). Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Taglines that make you go "Hmmm..." From jp at acm.org Wed Sep 14 16:46:40 2005 From: jp at acm.org (John Peterson) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 14:46:40 -0700 Subject: Homebrew Circuit Boards: Methods? Supplies? In-Reply-To: <43284F88.2090209@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <17192.19781.311723.270034@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17192.19781.311723.270034@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <5.1.1.5.2.20050914144534.021f6ff8@mail.saccade.com> You might check out Target 3001. They have a free version, the only catch is you must use their partner's PCB service. I used the service once, excellent results, prices a bit on the high side. The cost for a paid version that lets you do Gerber output is pretty reasonable. http://www.ibfriedrich.com/english/index.htm >The only thing good about eagle is has a schematic package. >I am still looking for a free PCB and a free Schematic entry >program because that for me is bigger than eagle's demo size. >While waiting for PCB's now may be the time to evaluate some >programs before you create your sim's. >Ben alias woodelf >PS I remember somebody put a linux? system on a sim. If you can >find that page it may help you with your design. From fryers at gmail.com Mon Sep 19 05:59:26 2005 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 11:59:26 +0100 Subject: Help scrounging in England In-Reply-To: <20050918185501.S716@fiche.wps.com> References: <432CE222.5050209@yahoo.co.uk> <20050918185501.S716@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: All, On 9/19/05, Tom Jennings wrote: > > On Sun, 18 Sep 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Unfortunately the UK doesn't seem to have the equivalent of US > > salvage/surplus places :-( > > WHAT!? How in HELL do you get through a week?! Where does it all go? > Alcohol helps the week pass! *hic*! The EC do a good job of making sure that equipment can't just be dumped. Many large organisations appear to have disposal contracts. :( I am assuming a lot is broken down and recycled. I find the local Linux user groups are a good source of hardware, and contacts who know about useful sources of hardware. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Sep 19 08:30:14 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 08:30:14 Subject: Kinda off topic but fitting, rare model 20" TV find of day. In-Reply-To: <20050918063544.WFTD25800.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard > References: <200509171701.j8HH11SX046746@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050919083014.3f8f8bea@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:42 AM 9/18/05 +0000, you wrote: >RCA Proscan 20" (PS20110, manufactured 1991) I own one of these. Great TV! Joe From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Sep 19 08:26:26 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:26:26 -0400 Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies Message-ID: <20050919132605.CZDV10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> While images are nice, for CP/M there is another alternative that may be >> more widely useful and easier, although it's less historically accurate. >> That is just to copy the files over to MS-DOS disks, where they can then >> exist in folders on a modern hard drive or be put on CDs or DVDs. I can >> really see no advantage to a strict "image", as long as one has the files. >> >> The issue that this leaves out is the system tracks, but that is easily >> dealt with: Runs "SYSGEN", exit, and then do a "SAVE 34 SYSTEM.COM" and you >> have the system tracks as a disk file in a format that is easily restored >> simply using SYSGEN. >> >> This method also has some actual advantages, in terms of being able to >> actually use the software with a CP/M emulator on a PC. >> >> Since I'm not aware of any CP/M programs that did copy protection or any >> other type of manipulation that would require an exact disk image, I don't >> really see the drawback of this approach. > >The one main drawback is that this is not an accurate or appropriate way >to create an image for historical preservation. For this reason I >recommened against what you describe. Somehow I missed the beginning of this thread (had a few mail probs lately), so please forgive if I am wandering too far away from the original topic, but I gather we are trying to figure out how to best preserve CP/M disks. I to agree that copying the files is not the best solution - even if you do the SYSTEM.COM thing, you still need a working CP/M boot disk to be able to make a boot disk (chicken and egg type of deal) - Having restored a number of systems for which I did NOT have an original boot disk, I can tell you that this can be an issue. I've used ImageDisk to backup and restore quite a few CP/M disks by now, and it works well, deals with system tracks just fine, and allows you to make a bootable disk from "starting point zero". It does have two limitations: - For 8" systems, you will have to attach an 8" drive to your PC ... I've put up a page on my web site which describes this in a bit of detail, including an adapter thats very easy to make to convert the 8" interface to plug into a standard 5.25" cable. - The disk format must be one that is compatible with the PC's 765 controller The only work-around for this is to use CPT. For cases where the disk format is not compatible with the PC (hard or non-IBM format sectors), I have created CPT (CP/m Transfer) which is also available on my site - CPT transfers disk images to and from the actual target system over the serial port, and can work with ANY format disk (because it uses the targets disks and controller). CPT has a different set of limitations: - The target system must have a serial port (it doesn't have to be the console). - You need to provide a very small binary serial port driver for the CPT resident client. Even if you don't know how to talk to it, looking at the device number of the UART, and a few minutes tracing vectors and disassembling with DDT will usually give you the info you need. - CPT can't always handle system tracks - CP/M does not provide a standard way to read/write the system tracks, and on some systems they are different from the user tracks and incompatible with the system floppy driver. CPT allows you to skip them, and you could use SYSGEN/SAVE to place a copy of them in the user area. - CPT requires you to have a working target system backup and recreate the disks. It *SHOULD* be possible to save a memory image of loaded CP/M and FORMAT which can be loaded into a bare system to create a formatted disk. I have not had to do this with CP/M yet, but I have done it with Cromemco RDOS which is similar. Note that you still need a means of getting the memory image into memory and launching it at the right address (for Cromemco you can use RDOS) - I have a very tiny (<500 bytes) 8080 monitor which would work for this purpose. With CP/M you would need to have a second memory image with SYSGEN, and system tracks preloaded in memory, and possibly a third with the CPT client preloaded - but these should be possible, at which point you could use CPT to transfer over full disk images. I've been toying with the idea of writing a program to allow you to list the directory, and import/export files to/from a CP/M ImageDisk image (or perhaps just a straight binary disk image which IMDU can create)... This would allow the files to be used under a CP/M simulator that uses the DOS file system fairly easily ... too busy to even start right now, but perhaps sometime this winter. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 19 08:36:21 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:36:21 -0400 Subject: Old Macworld magazines Message-ID: <006401c5bd1f$1fbfb360$0500fea9@game> Does anybody have any 1990-95 MacWorld Magazines they want to get rid of? From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Sep 19 08:48:53 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:48:53 -0400 Subject: BURROUGHS reel tape References: <20050916151415.S716@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <17198.49605.678551.466332@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> Up at Apex, what did I see, part 2: >> >> http://wps.com/temp/B-tape.jpg >> >> Not too spectacular, just some old reel tapes in (luckily) >> weather-proof containers. BURROUGHS. 3200 fci, so not too ancient. William> All Burroughs is worth saving, simply because no one saves William> it. True, if indeed that has Burroughs stuff on it. It could just be a boring data tape with the Burroughs name on it. I think all the bing companies resold magtape with their company name attached to it. William> For such a big player in the computer industry during the William> golden age, so few people know anything about the company or William> their machines. Indeed. It would be neat to get a hold of the 6700 OS. The technology there is interesting and unusual. Someday I hope to recover my copy of Algol for the PDP-11, which was derived from Burroughs Algol. That software actually is readily available in the DECUS collection, except that the sources were not provided. I have them somewhere; the problem is to find the tape... paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 19 08:44:52 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 14:44:52 +0100 Subject: Help scrounging in England In-Reply-To: <20050918185501.S716@fiche.wps.com> References: <432CE222.5050209@yahoo.co.uk> <20050918185501.S716@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <432EC0D4.5050504@yahoo.co.uk> Tom Jennings wrote: > On Sun, 18 Sep 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Unfortunately the UK doesn't seem to have the equivalent of US >> salvage/surplus places :-( > > > WHAT!? How in HELL do you get through a week?! Where does it all go? Honestly, I'm not sure. I'm tempted to say that there just isn't really any classic stuff left in the UK that hasn't found its way into the hands of enthusiasts already. Having said that, a lot of the big companies are still hanging on to 80's-era equipment (VAXen and the like). From the point of view of someone involved with a museum, we still get a trickle of big stuff - maybe around 80% DEC, 10% HP, and 10% other. But I do suspect that most of it's gone to the crusher long ago, or is locked away in company basements "just in case" (I suspect in the latter case it'll now stay there due to the disposal requirements that Simon mentioned) As I've said before on the list, the computer recycler local to my home back in England does get larger classic stuff from time to time - he parts them out, with the boards going to someone who rips them apart for the gold, and the chassis' all go to a metal recycler just down the road from him where they're immediately crunched. I suspect the same is true for the other recyclers in the country - I suppose there just isn't the space for computer graveyards like in the US. The curious thing is that 8 bit home micros seem to have all but vanished too - perhaps that's because there's no obvious place to get rid of them to, and what's left is still tucked away in cupboards of the owners (who perhaps have no clue what the machines in question are). Hence the reason I suggested freecycle lists, as they're becoming quite popular in the UK and it doesn't hurt to join and mention that you're interested in any such hardware. FWIW, car scrapyards are the same in the UK these days - gone are the days of huge yards with all sorts of gems tucked away in the corners. They're much smaller these days with only a few pretty modern vehicles, and places that part out scrap cars (and then sell the bits at much higher prices) seem to now be the norm. Takes all the fun out of it! cheers Jules From kth at srv.net Mon Sep 19 09:12:34 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 08:12:34 -0600 Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <432EC752.90801@srv.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Sat, 17 Sep 2005, Barry Watzman wrote: > > > >>While images are nice, for CP/M there is another alternative that may be >>more widely useful and easier, although it's less historically accurate. >>That is just to copy the files over to MS-DOS disks, where they can then >>exist in folders on a modern hard drive or be put on CDs or DVDs. I can >>really see no advantage to a strict "image", as long as one has the files. >> >>The issue that this leaves out is the system tracks, but that is easily >>dealt with: Runs "SYSGEN", exit, and then do a "SAVE 34 SYSTEM.COM" and you >>have the system tracks as a disk file in a format that is easily restored >>simply using SYSGEN. >> >>This method also has some actual advantages, in terms of being able to >>actually use the software with a CP/M emulator on a PC. >> >>Since I'm not aware of any CP/M programs that did copy protection or any >>other type of manipulation that would require an exact disk image, I don't >>really see the drawback of this approach. >> >> > >The one main drawback is that this is not an accurate or appropriate way >to create an image for historical preservation. For this reason I >recommened against what you describe. > > > Another one: If you have the machine in question and need a boot disk, how do you create one from this? You can't run sysgen because you can't boot, and you can't boot because the system tracks aren't in the right place. From kth at srv.net Mon Sep 19 09:16:19 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 08:16:19 -0600 Subject: Kaypro boot disk. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <432EC833.3030502@srv.net> Bradley Slavik wrote: >A colleague of mine is looking for a boot disk for a Kaypro 4 '84. He >says : > >"I have a Kaypro 4 (83), Kaypro 4(84), and a Kaypro 10. >The boot disks for all three are mutually incompatible. >What I still need is a boot disk for Kaypro 4(84)." > >(These are 5.25 inch floppies, of course. An actual disk would be great, >but he says that if somebody wanted to send a disk image, he could work >with that, as long as he knew what program was used to create it.) > >Can anyone email me images of all boot disks or direct me to appropriate >web site? I will reimburse postage/disk costs if someone wishes to send >physical disks instead of emailing images. > >Braldey Slavik > > > > Did anyone ever set up an archive for cpm disks? There was a lot of talk about it a while ago when Maslin's archine went away. Anyone attempting to re-create it yet? From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 19 09:27:03 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:27:03 -0500 Subject: Kaypro boot disk. In-Reply-To: <432EC833.3030502@srv.net> References: <432EC833.3030502@srv.net> Message-ID: <200509190927.04110.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 19 September 2005 09:16, Kevin Handy wrote: > Did anyone ever set up an archive for cpm disks? > There was a lot of talk about it a while ago when Maslin's archine > went away. Anyone attempting to re-create it yet? It looks like I'm about to embark upon such a project... :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Mon Sep 19 09:41:06 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 10:41:06 -0400 Subject: INMOS DSP Databook on ebay Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557830B5E@cpexchange.olf.com> Hi, This is a very difficult databook to obtain. It took me about 4 years to obtain one. Contains info and tech notes on the A1xx class of INMOS DSP processors including the IMSB009 Quad-A100 + transputer processing board... http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-Signal-Processing-Databook-INMOS-PB_W0QQitemZ697 8750783QQcategoryZ69479QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Cheers, Ram From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Sep 19 10:25:57 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 08:25:57 -0700 Subject: looking for a book on monitor theory In-Reply-To: <20050914233010.66271.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050914233010.66271.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 9/14/05, Chris M wrote: > > > Purpose: the investigate the possibility of modifying > a recent multisync to sync down to TV frequencies. Not > interlaced necessarily. Just to use a modern monitor > with stuph that operates between CGA and VGA > frequencies. Much obliged. You best bet on this is to modify the input signal rather than the monitor itself. The analog circuitry in modern monitors isn't all that hackable. Devices that do signal conversion are called scan converters/line doublers/flicker fixers. You can find video-VGA conversion boxes just about anywhere. Also check for CGA-VGA converter boards (usually advertised as being for arcade video games). If you really want to do it youself, you can probably find a schematic online that will do the job. It takes some logic, 3 or 4 high speed ADCs (assuming you want color), some memory, and 3-DACs. There are some chips that will do the whole job, but I don't know too much about their capabilities and adaptable they are. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 19 12:56:27 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 10:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies Message-ID: <200509191756.KAA11958@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I tend to agree with Sellam. If one wants, it is usually a trivial job to extract the file(s) of interest from an image. It is impossible to guess what piece might be missing from a pile of files. I don't think space is an issue any more. Dwight >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Sat, 17 Sep 2005, Barry Watzman wrote: > >> While images are nice, for CP/M there is another alternative that may be >> more widely useful and easier, although it's less historically accurate. >> That is just to copy the files over to MS-DOS disks, where they can then >> exist in folders on a modern hard drive or be put on CDs or DVDs. I can >> really see no advantage to a strict "image", as long as one has the files. >> >> The issue that this leaves out is the system tracks, but that is easily >> dealt with: Runs "SYSGEN", exit, and then do a "SAVE 34 SYSTEM.COM" and you >> have the system tracks as a disk file in a format that is easily restored >> simply using SYSGEN. >> >> This method also has some actual advantages, in terms of being able to >> actually use the software with a CP/M emulator on a PC. >> >> Since I'm not aware of any CP/M programs that did copy protection or any >> other type of manipulation that would require an exact disk image, I don't >> really see the drawback of this approach. > >The one main drawback is that this is not an accurate or appropriate way >to create an image for historical preservation. For this reason I >recommened against what you describe. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 19 13:04:31 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 11:04:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! Message-ID: <200509191804.LAA11963@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Philip Pemberton" > >In message > William Donzelli wrote: > >> Cash - the most sincere form of payment. > >The only truly irrevocable one too. Well, aside from maybe a bank transfer >(BACS/CHAPS). > Hi I like postal money orders sent by US mail. If the seller doesn't send the item or misrepresents the item it is mail fraud. A simple message or two about bringing the postal office into the action brings quick results. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 19 14:29:45 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 12:29:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Radio Shack TRS-80 Models I and III available near NE Ohio Message-ID: See below. Contact original sender directly. Reply-to: Kirk Worcester ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 14:35:32 -0400 From: Kirk Worcester To: vcf at vintage.org Subject: Radio Shack I have a RS Model I and Model III and I'm looking for a good home. Any suggestions? Ideally I'd like to find a local collector (NE Ohio) that could come and pick these up. Thank you, Kirk Worcester -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Sep 19 12:43:42 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:43:42 +0100 Subject: Help scrounging in England In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 19 Sep 2005 11:59:26 BST." Message-ID: <200509191743.SAA26132@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi Simon Fryer said: > All, > > On 9/19/05, Tom Jennings wrote: > > > > On Sun, 18 Sep 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > > Unfortunately the UK doesn't seem to have the equivalent of US > > > salvage/surplus places :-( > > > > WHAT!? How in HELL do you get through a week?! Where does it all go? > > > Alcohol helps the week pass! *hic*! > The EC do a good job of making sure that equipment can't just be dumped. > Many large organisations appear to have disposal contracts. :( I am assuming > a lot is broken down and recycled. All areas now have specialist computer recycling firms, look in Yellow pages. I've just found out there's a couple real near me. One has offered to keep me any non-PC stuff that turns up, the other I haven't contacted yet. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 19 15:17:31 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 13:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies In-Reply-To: <20050919132605.CZDV10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050919132605.CZDV10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20050919131241.V1391@fiche.wps.com> Do both. Why is there always this unspoken quest for a single solution to all problems? * Some need/want need bootable system disks. * Some need/want to add programs to their running CP/M systems. * Some need/want ... I'm sure this thread will become as long and finely drawn (how's that for a polite euphemism? :-) as all of them do, but it seems quite pointless. CP/M files available individually via ftp is useful. Sector-image files are useful. Physical copies of original media is useful. It's all useful. Sheesh, every single CP/M program ever written by everyone including every unshipped trivial revision of every single trivial program including demos and pets, all told still can't tally up to more than a few gigs or tens of gigs or maybe 100 gig. Eh. Tempest in a teaspoon. From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Sep 19 16:46:36 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 17:46:36 -0400 Subject: Co-Power-88 Equipped ATR8000 on EBay Message-ID: <432F31BC.9020806@atarimuseum.com> Anyone who may be interested (not mine) there is an SWP ATR8000 computer up on Ebay, I noticed it has a Co-Power-88 adaptor board on it, which allowed it to run both CP/M and (Limited) MS-DOS based programs. It has a nice pair of 5.25" disk drives with it. The ATR-8000 is also a peripheral for Atari 800 home computers and allows them to use its ports for printer, modem and standard disk drives (as well as being able to mix Atari SIO disk drives with its standard disk drives) Its a nice unit. I have several, including one of the only ATR8500's ever made. If anyone bids and wins, contact me off list as I can provide copies of all of the manuals for the ATR8000 and the Co-Power-88 as copies of the SWP utility disks and CP/M 22 and DOS 2.1 disks in Atari format to boot it up. http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Vintage-Atari-ATR-8000-DOS-computer_W0QQitemZ5244083081QQcategoryZ82631QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: 9/16/2005 From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Sep 19 17:14:08 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:14:08 -0400 Subject: Kaypro boot disk. Message-ID: <20050919221407.KNPN10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> Did anyone ever set up an archive for cpm disks? >> There was a lot of talk about it a while ago when Maslin's archine >> went away. Anyone attempting to re-create it yet? > >It looks like I'm about to embark upon such a project... :) I'm slowly building a collection of various boot/system disk images, which can be found in the "Disks/Software images" area near the bottom of my main page. As long as Rob (the guy hosting the site and a fellow collector) continues to let me increase my space usage, I will continue to add to it. I'd be happy to work with others wishing to build up this or another archive. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Sep 19 18:49:47 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:49:47 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <200509191804.LAA11963@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050919184947.111720a8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:04 AM 9/19/05 -0700, you wrote: >>From: "Philip Pemberton" >> >>In message >> William Donzelli wrote: >> >>> Cash - the most sincere form of payment. >> >>The only truly irrevocable one too. Well, aside from maybe a bank transfer >>(BACS/CHAPS). >> > >Hi > I like postal money orders sent by US mail. If the >seller doesn't send the item or misrepresents the item >it is mail fraud. A simple message or two about bringing >the postal office into the action brings quick results. >Dwight > The problem with money orders is that they're now being counterfitted and many sellers are refusing to accept them. But I like your idea of bringing in the postal authories. Do you know if they would actually persue the seller in a case of fraud or misrepresentation? Joe From allain at panix.com Mon Sep 19 18:02:47 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 19:02:47 -0400 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! References: <3.0.6.16.20050919184947.111720a8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <016b01c5bd6e$4116e980$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> >> A simple message or two about bringing the postal office >> into the action brings quick results. > Do you know if they would actually persue the seller in > a case of fraud or misrepresentation? In my one case I filed with the Post Office for a refund, got it (minus a fair service charge) and then a few months later when their computers matched "A" with "B", got a bill for the spent MO Anyway! I like the way Dwight phrases it though. Just use the threat of action. John A. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 19 18:05:58 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:05:58 -0500 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050919184947.111720a8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200509191804.LAA11963@clulw009.amd.com> <3.0.6.16.20050919184947.111720a8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:49:47, Joe R. wrote: > The problem with money orders is that they're now being counterfitted > and many sellers are refusing to accept them. But I like your idea of > bringing in the postal authories. Do you know if they would actually persue > the seller in a case of fraud or misrepresentation? They will investigate in cases of large dollar losses. The only good part of that is that it's total loss, not what you personally may have lost - big time scammers have a better chance of crossing that line, if everyone who got scammed reports it. The net is rife with stories of successful and unsuccessful pursuits of scammers. YMMV. OTOH, I won't use BidPay either. I don't like Western Union, and I don't like their fee structures (of course... pretty much any technique has its problems). -ethan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 19 18:45:11 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:45:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! Message-ID: <200509192345.QAA12056@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "John Allain" > >>> A simple message or two about bringing the postal office >>> into the action brings quick results. > >> Do you know if they would actually persue the seller in >> a case of fraud or misrepresentation? > >In my one case I filed with the Post Office for a refund, got it >(minus a fair service charge) and then a few months later when >their computers matched "A" with "B", got a bill for the spent MO >Anyway! I like the way Dwight phrases it though. >Just use the threat of action. > >John A. > Hi They do claim that they will investigate any claims of mail fraud. That goes both ways. They like to know about counterfeit MO's. One rule is to never except a money order for more than the sale value. There is no reason the buyer can't make it for the exact amount. Also, if a seller, only except postal money orders. It is not that it offers any more protection it is just that the PO gets more excited if there is a counterfeit postal money order. I don't expect that the PO would correctly handle a refund, I just expect that the seller would think twice about a federal crime as compared to a state law. Postal money orders sent through the mail are federal issues. The only other thing I don't like about postal money orders is that they are real slow about checking to see if the money order has been cashed. You'd think with the current day computers, it should be an on line operation, taking seconds. Dwight From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Sep 19 18:50:36 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:50:36 -0500 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050919184947.111720a8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050919184947.111720a8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <432F4ECC.1070305@mdrconsult.com> Joe R. wrote: > The problem with money orders is that they're now being counterfitted > and many sellers are refusing to accept them. But I like your idea of > bringing in the postal authories. Do you know if they would actually persue > the seller in a case of fraud or misrepresentation? The PostMaster General won't even look at anything less than $10,000 USD, at least in domestic cases. My boss suffered ID theft a couple of years ago, and the that hijacked his cards literally ran about $9950 on each account. She did so by submitting change-of-address affidavits by mail, which made it mail fraud, but since no single card was defrauded by more than $10k, the PO never even looked at it, even though my boss put proof in their hands and even though they were aware that the same individual had gotten away with 3 other instances, doing the same thing. Doc From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Sep 19 19:49:06 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 19:49:06 -0500 Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies In-Reply-To: <200509191756.KAA11958@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200509191756.KAA11958@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050919194906.73ace43a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 10:56:27 -0700 (PDT) "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > Hi > I tend to agree with Sellam. If one wants, it > is usually a trivial job to extract the file(s) of > interest from an image. It is impossible to guess > what piece might be missing from a pile of files. > I don't think space is an issue any more. > Dwight > The solution to the conflict of opinions is to archive BOTH. I don't think space is an issue anymore. From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 19 20:10:58 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BURROUGHS reel tape In-Reply-To: <17198.49605.678551.466332@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20050916151415.S716@fiche.wps.com> <17198.49605.678551.466332@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050919180854.W2869@fiche.wps.com> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Up at Apex, what did I see, part 2: > >> > >> http://wps.com/temp/B-tape.jpg > >> > >> Not too spectacular, just some old reel tapes in (luckily) > >> weather-proof containers. BURROUGHS. 3200 fci, so not too ancient. > > William> All Burroughs is worth saving, simply because no one saves > William> it. > > True, if indeed that has Burroughs stuff on it. It could just be a > boring data tape with the Burroughs name on it. I think all the bing > companies resold magtape with their company name attached to it. Oh I'm quite sure they are just BURROUGHS reels, with crap old data on them. THere was a hand-scrawled label, some sort of data saves or something. They most definitely were not Burroughs factory distribution tapes. You can see the labels in the photo. From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Sep 19 20:50:57 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:50:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <432F4ECC.1070305@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: > The PostMaster General won't even look at anything less than $10,000 > USD, at least in domestic cases. Maybe your postmaster is lazy. Most will start an investigation for any amount. I have to say getting the USPS involved works like a charm... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Sep 19 22:07:28 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:07:28 -0500 Subject: Hero-Jr Parts Needed Message-ID: <00c301c5bd90$70803d80$39406b43@66067007> Does anyone on the list have some spare Hero-Jr parts? From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Sep 19 22:25:52 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:25:52 -0500 Subject: Altos 586 system sold on eBay Message-ID: <20050919222552.508122be.chenmel@earthlink.net> I completely missed this item on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5226857402 It's an Altos 586 system with all the system install diskettes. I have an Altos 586 and would REALLY like to have diskettes to reinstall the OS 'stock' (mine has a limited version of Xenix with an 'office suite' on it as well). Does anybody know this buyer? From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Sep 19 22:31:11 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 23:31:11 -0400 Subject: Hero-Jr Parts Needed In-Reply-To: <00c301c5bd90$70803d80$39406b43@66067007> References: <00c301c5bd90$70803d80$39406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <432F827F.6010605@atarimuseum.com> I think that there is actually one on ebay right now listed for parts, I know I see them often on Ebay, I wish I hadn't sold mine back in 97' Curt Keys wrote: > Does anyone on the list have some spare Hero-Jr parts? > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: 9/16/2005 From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 19 22:35:12 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:35:12 -0500 Subject: Altos 586 system sold on eBay In-Reply-To: <20050919222552.508122be.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050919222552.508122be.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200509192235.12905.pat@computer-refuge.org> Scott Stevens declared on Monday 19 September 2005 10:25 pm: > I completely missed this item on eBay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5226857402 > > It's an Altos 586 system with all the system install diskettes. > > I have an Altos 586 and would REALLY like to have diskettes to > reinstall the OS 'stock' (mine has a limited version of Xenix with an > 'office suite' on it as well). Does anybody know this buyer? I've got a 586 and I think I've got install disks for it somewhere, from a friend who passed away a year ago. I'll see if I can find them, and get some images made. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 19 12:00:00 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 10:00:00 -0700 Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies In-Reply-To: <20050919132605.CZDV10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050919132605.CZDV10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <200509191000000466.0A952516@10.0.0.252> This whole business of imaging diskettes is something in which I've had a little bit of experience... Any sort of machine-to-machine setup assumes that you have a boot diskette that enables the target system to (1) run CP/M (2) has comms hardware that you can understand and patch for and (3) has diskette hardware that you know about--or that the format on a diskette remains consistent enough that it can be accessed through CBIOS calls--and (4) has a comms port. This can turn into quite a chicken-and-egg situation. Out of the several thousand diskettes in my collection, quite a few are not CP/M; a few more that run CP/M provide no way to create an initialized system diskette from a blank; and a few that provide no access other than direct hardware manipulation to the system tracks. The next time you acquire a Future Data or Durango F-85 system, good luck with these! The Future Data is non-CP/M, uses a GCR format for recording and whose hardware is a pretty much a mystery. The Durango uses its own 100 tpi GCR diskettes, does not include a comms port as standard, and was shipped with Durango's own operating system (although I did do a CP/M port for it back in the 70's, it wasn't so simple and the CBIOS was huge). I keep some images around as Catweasel-type raw images and these are pretty good for archival purposes, but there are twists, such as hard-sectored diskettes or strange drives (say Motorola VersaDOS or Victor 9000 systems) that can make resurrecting a physical boot diskette a challenge. Another downside is since Catweasel images are essentially time-domain types, every flux transition requires 8 bits to describe, these run into the megabytes. And you can't simply look at one with hex editor to see what's there. But it's better than nothing. Tim's approach of keeping images around as SSSD A1 type images isn't bad at all, things considered. Cheers, Chuck From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Sep 19 14:09:27 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 20:09:27 +0100 Subject: looking for a book on monitor theory In-Reply-To: <200509161906480657.020A8469@10.0.0.252> References: <200509161906480657.020A8469@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <432F0CE7.4080506@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>recommendation for something general would be >>>appreciated, whether a past or present publication. >>> Purpose: the investigate the possibility of modifying >>>a recent multisync to sync down to TV frequencies. Not >>>interlaced necessarily. Just to use a modern monitor >>>with stuph that operates between CGA and VGA >>>frequencies. Much obliged. > > > I'll echo that I don't think it's practical to do this. Modern multisync CRT monitors contain lots of circuitry to manage the various linearity and distortion problem imposed by the need to vary sweep frequencies. The horizontal sweep components, in particular, won't let you get much below 32 Khz or so. > > I suppose one could use a TV-freqency video "frame grabber" on a PC to acquire then display on a modern monitor, but that seems to be the long way around the job. Why not just use a TV, if you're looking for TV-ish frame rates? I used a TV with my old CGA card *years* ago. Now I use a VGA-to-RGB cable and a suitably strange modeline to play back video on a TV. Gordon. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 19 15:35:45 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 13:35:45 -0700 Subject: BURROUGHS reel tape In-Reply-To: <17198.49605.678551.466332@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20050916151415.S716@fiche.wps.com> <17198.49605.678551.466332@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200509191335450876.0B5AABE6@10.0.0.252> On 9/19/2005, Paul Koning wrote: >Indeed. It would be neat to get a hold of the 6700 OS. The >technology there is interesting and unusual. I wonder if there is still some BSP code wandering around in some government lab archive. I recall from when I was at CDC that the BSP was considered to be a potential competitor to the Star, if for no other reason than it had a separate scalar execution unit. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 19 18:51:05 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 16:51:05 -0700 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: References: <200509191804.LAA11963@clulw009.amd.com> <3.0.6.16.20050919184947.111720a8@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200509191651050955.0C0D804C@10.0.0.252> On 9/19/2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:49:47, Joe R. wrote: >> The problem with money orders is that they're now being counterfitted >> and many sellers are refusing to accept them. But I like your idea of >> bringing in the postal authories. Do you know if they would actually >persue >> the seller in a case of fraud or misrepresentation? Many sellers asking for BidPay are located outside of the US. This means that any fraud would be up to law enforcement in the seller's country. Vigorous prosecution of a foreign claim isn't something that I'd want to roll the dice on. --Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 19 20:42:40 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 18:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Scan doubling, was Re: looking for a book on monitor theory In-Reply-To: <432F0CE7.4080506@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20050920014240.34578.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> > > I'll echo that I don't think it's practical to do > this. Modern multisync CRT monitors contain lots of > circuitry to manage the various linearity and > distortion problem imposed by the need to vary sweep > frequencies. The horizontal sweep components, in > particular, won't let you get much below 32 Khz or > so. I'm sure you have a better handle on this then I do, but they're built not to go below ~32khz these days, because there's no reason to. The earlier multisyncs went down to 15.75khz. I wasn't suggesting it wouldn't be a sizeable job. Might not be practical, who knows. It would just be nice to have a way of producing an output from a vintage puter in the absence of anything older, and larger (19"+). > > I suppose one could use a TV-freqency video "frame > grabber" on a PC to acquire then display on a modern > monitor, but that seems to be the long way around > the job. That's actually an interesting suggestion, but I'm not generally looking to grab interlaced stuph at tv frequencies. Still it might be easier to modify something like that then modifying the monitor itself (?). To sync down to cga frequencies would be nice, but generally the puters/cards I'm looking to work with are around the 25khz area. Princeton used to sell an item called a scan doubler. It allowed the use of a 400 line non-interlaced monitor with a cga frequency card, in effect doubling (almost) the horizontal sync rate (I guess the overscan wasn't doubled, so 15.75khz became about 24-25 khz, not 31.5khz). Information of something like that (I can't find one) would be appreciated. There were similar things for the Amiga IIRC, but maybe those were just "flicker fixers", and only took it's interlaced video and changed it into non-interlaced (?). __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 20 06:28:05 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 07:28:05 -0400 Subject: Altos 586 system sold on eBay Message-ID: <20050920112804.TKQT10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >I've got a 586 and I think I've got install disks for it somewhere, from >a friend who passed away a year ago. I'll see if I can find them, and >get some images made. Hi Pat, My Altos586 is in the same boat as Scotts - it boots OK from the hard drive, but I don't have install media should I ever need to rebuild it. The one disk I have on my site was "stuffed into the drive" when I got it, but I don't think it's enough to reinstall the system. Please let me know if you locate the Altos install disks - I'd also be happy to include the images in my archive if thats OK with you. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Tue Sep 20 06:42:47 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 07:42:47 -0400 Subject: QuantumLink project posted to Slashdot.org Message-ID: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/19/2321236 &tid=95&tid=120 Here's the link to the QuantumLink project is it is discussed on /. Rich From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 20 06:51:23 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 07:51:23 -0400 Subject: QuantumLink project posted to Slashdot.org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <432FF7BB.8090408@gmail.com> Cini, Richard wrote: > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/19/2321236 > > &tid=95&tid=120 > > > > Here's the link to the QuantumLink project is it is discussed on /. > > > > Rich > > Ouch. Peace... Sridhar From Richard.Cini at wachovia.com Tue Sep 20 06:55:10 2005 From: Richard.Cini at wachovia.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 07:55:10 -0400 Subject: QuantumLink project posted to Slashdot.org Message-ID: Ouch is right but based on a follow-up post from Jim, his servers are withstanding the load... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2005 7:51 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: QuantumLink project posted to Slashdot.org Cini, Richard wrote: > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/19/2321236 > > &tid=95&tid=120 > > > > Here's the link to the QuantumLink project is it is discussed on /. > > > > Rich > > Ouch. Peace... Sridhar From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Sep 20 07:19:09 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 08:19:09 -0400 Subject: Altos 586 system sold on eBay Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557830B75@cpexchange.olf.com> Send him an email. I do this all the time when I spot transputer hardware/software on ebay regardless if I bid on it or not. I email the winner and he gladly sends me copies (I also do this with the seller as well).... Ram > Xenix with an 'office suite' on it as well). Does anybody > know this buyer? > From Jerryalpha at cs.com Sun Sep 18 18:29:56 2005 From: Jerryalpha at cs.com (Jerryalpha at cs.com) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 19:29:56 EDT Subject: Commodore B-128 series & 4040 dual drive Message-ID: <1b8.1bd16504.305f5274@cs.com> Dear Bill, I cam across your name in an old web site relating to your having a few CBM 4040 drives. I wonder if these are still available? Jerry Buckwalter in PA From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Sep 20 08:08:14 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 09:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone need a Sun Creator 3D Frame Buffer? In-Reply-To: <20050919221407.KNPN10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050919221407.KNPN10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: I have a Sun Creator 3D (Series 1) frame buffer, 501-2633. Unable to test, but in good physical condition. $8.95, including Priority Mail shipping. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 20 08:30:07 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 09:30:07 -0400 Subject: Anyone need a Sun Creator 3D Frame Buffer? In-Reply-To: References: <20050919221407.KNPN10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <43300EDF.4060209@gmail.com> Mike Loewen wrote: > > I have a Sun Creator 3D (Series 1) frame buffer, 501-2633. Unable to > test, but in good physical condition. $8.95, including Priority Mail > shipping. Vertical or horizontal? Peace... Sridhar From brain at jbrain.com Tue Sep 20 08:49:53 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 08:49:53 -0500 Subject: QuantumLink project posted to Slashdot.org In-Reply-To: <432FF7BB.8090408@gmail.com> References: <432FF7BB.8090408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43301381.9060309@jbrain.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Cini, Richard wrote: > >> http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/19/2321236 >> >> &tid=95&tid=120 >> >> >> >> Here's the link to the QuantumLink project is it is discussed on /. >> >> >> >> Rich >> >> > > Ouch. > > Peace... Sridhar Hehe, /. did not kill the server... My picture web site went down for a bit, but the server is still running, as I type. 1200 bps throttles everyone... Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Sep 20 10:08:40 2005 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 08:08:40 -0700 Subject: QuantumLink project posted to Slashdot.org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <433025F8.5050705@deltasoft.com> Cini, Richard wrote: > http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/19/2321236 > > &tid=95&tid=120 > > > > Here's the link to the QuantumLink project is it is discussed on /. > Is anyone going to send a condolences card to the web server? :) g. -- -- "I'm not crazy, I'm plausibly off-nominal!" Proud owner of 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Sep 20 11:02:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 09:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF 8.0 Exhibits Registration (Nov. 5-6) Message-ID: If you're planning to exhibit at VCF 8.0 on November 5-6, now would be a good time to register ;) http://www.vintage.org/2005/main/exhibit.php Currently registered exhibitors also available at the above URL. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Sep 20 11:35:30 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 09:35:30 -0700 Subject: looking for a book on monitor theory In-Reply-To: References: <20050914233010.66271.qmail@web61019.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 9/19/05, Eric J Korpela wrote: > If you really want to do it youself, you can probably find a schematic > online that will do the job. > Here's one place with schematics. If you are doing monochrome or RGB to RGB conversion you should be able to simplify somewhat. http://www.epanorama.net/links/videocircuits.html#tvvga Eric From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Sep 20 12:05:41 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 12:05:41 -0500 Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies In-Reply-To: <200509191000000466.0A952516@10.0.0.252> References: <20050919132605.CZDV10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <200509191000000466.0A952516@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200509201205.41380.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 19 September 2005 12:00, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Another downside is since Catweasel images are > essentially time-domain types, every flux transition requires 8 bits > to describe, these run into the megabytes. And you can't simply look > at one with hex editor to see what's there. If you use Tim Mann's catweasel tools and generate DMK images (are there any others that run on Linux?), it definately does not store them in flux-transition format. You can (and I have) read the data using your favorite text/hex editor. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Sep 20 12:22:11 2005 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini@ntlworld.com) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 18:22:11 +0100 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <200509191651050955.0C0D804C@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <006b01c5be07$d75e09c0$5b01a8c0@pc1> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Many sellers asking for BidPay are located outside of the US. This > means that any fraud would be up to law enforcement in the seller's > country. Vigorous prosecution of a foreign claim isn't something > that I'd want to roll the dice on. I'm in the UK. I used BidPay years ago when PayPal was still X-something or other and only covered the US. As far as I can remember, I paid BidPay and they would send a US$ MO to the recipient. Said recipient would then presumably head off to wherever and cash it (and then hopefully send along my goods). At which point can they end up getting cheated? In particular, since BidPay used to send confirmation emails to all and sundry, how can the seller get bitten? Antonio -- Antonio carlini arcarlini at iee.org From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Tue Sep 20 13:34:41 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 19:34:41 +0100 Subject: Creed Envoy teleprinter Message-ID: <003701c5be12$0022da20$0200a8c0@geoff> The Asst. Curator of the Signals Museum at RAF Henlow, Alf Fisher, is trying to obtain schematics for the above machine , He says, "I have a Creed manual which covers everything mechanical but only block diagrams about the electronics aspects of the machine. I suppose they had a policy to replace a printed circuit board if it became faulty rather than diagnose a fault and repair it. Please can you help at all with the electronics of the machine? " Anybody have any info ? Cheers , Geoff. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.3/107 - Release Date: 20/09/05 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 20 14:02:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 20:02:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: looking for a book on monitor theory In-Reply-To: <432F0CE7.4080506@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Sep 19, 5 08:09:27 pm Message-ID: > Why not just use a TV, if you're looking for TV-ish frame rates? I used While most modern-ish UK and European TVs have RGB intputs on the SCART socket, I am told that such a facility is rare on US TVs. On the other hand, modifying an isolated-chassis TV to have RGB inputs is probably a lot easier than modifying an SVGA monitor to do TV scan rates. -tony From tomj at wps.com Tue Sep 20 16:41:12 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 14:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Scan doubling, was Re: looking for a book on monitor theory In-Reply-To: <20050920014240.34578.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050920014240.34578.qmail@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050920143918.F872@fiche.wps.com> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005, Chris M wrote: > I'm sure you have a better handle on this then I do, > but they're built not to go below ~32khz these days, > because there's no reason to. The earlier multisyncs > went down to 15.75khz. I wasn't suggesting it wouldn't > be a sizeable job. Might not be practical, who knows. > It would just be nice to have a way of producing an > output from a vintage puter in the absence of anything > older, and larger (19"+). Aren't there relatively inexpensive scan converters these days? Iv'e used a few, input VGA output TV, nasty-looking chinese-made boxes for $80 or so. Fancy ones do buffering and complex conversions, but shouldn't be needed here. I too have a bias towards home-brew but there's times when forking over cash solves the problem instanter. From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Sep 20 19:29:22 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 19:29:22 -0500 Subject: Altos 586 system sold on eBay In-Reply-To: <200509192235.12905.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20050919222552.508122be.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050919222552.508122be.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050920192635.0e1e15c8@localhost> Which reminds me... I have an ALTOS TERMINAL, with a native mode, I think, and a VT-100 emulaton, or was it VT-220? I forget. I used it on my 11 before I gave it to Al. Worked very well for DEC stuff except for one game where it didn't respect double-high, double-wide characters exactly right. Maybe it was called the Altos-1. I think I even have a manual somewhere. I'd like to unload it, price: cheap. At 10:35 PM 9/19/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Scott Stevens declared on Monday 19 September 2005 10:25 pm: > > I completely missed this item on eBay: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5226857402 > > > > It's an Altos 586 system with all the system install diskettes. > > > > I have an Altos 586 and would REALLY like to have diskettes to > > reinstall the OS 'stock' (mine has a limited version of Xenix with an > > 'office suite' on it as well). Does anybody know this buyer? > >I've got a 586 and I think I've got install disks for it somewhere, from >a friend who passed away a year ago. I'll see if I can find them, and >get some images made. > >Pat >-- >Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ >The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org [Bachelors] Nowadays, all the married men live like bachelors, and all the bachelors like married men. --Oscar Wilde --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Sep 20 19:46:19 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 19:46:19 -0500 Subject: Free Macintoshes Message-ID: <20050920194619.38b68f92.chenmel@earthlink.net> I have some Apple Macintoshes that I would like to find a new home for. Free for the cost of shipping, or you can pick them up. They're still a bit too new to be 'on topic' here, 'Beige G3' machines, but if you hold onto them a few years.... Good machines to run the free Unixes on, and they have both IDE and SCSI interfaces and use standard SDRAM memory. They are the 'desktop' case machine and don't have memory or hard drives. I'm pretty sure they all work, though they haven't been run in some time. I am located south of Indianapolis in Indiana. From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Sep 20 20:42:21 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 20:42:21 -0500 Subject: Hero-Jr Parts Needed References: <00c301c5bd90$70803d80$39406b43@66067007> <432F827F.6010605@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <00b001c5be4f$4dd05580$29406b43@66067007> The prices I have seen on ebay are too high for my budget. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: ; "and Off-Topic Posts" <"Discussion at smtp3.suscom.net"@cnc.net:On-Topiccctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 10:31 PM Subject: Re: Hero-Jr Parts Needed >I think that there is actually one on ebay right now listed for parts, I >know I see them often on Ebay, I wish I hadn't sold mine back in 97' > > > > Curt > > > > Keys wrote: > >> Does anyone on the list have some spare Hero-Jr parts? >> >> > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: 9/16/2005 > > From gilcarrick at comcast.net Tue Sep 20 22:02:16 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 22:02:16 -0500 Subject: old PCs and CGA monitors, more etc free In-Reply-To: <4328F769.60801@swbell.net> Message-ID: <200509210311.j8L3BoNq093788@keith.ezwind.net> Pat - Since last Fri. I did not go out of the house until today. I still am not 100%. Unfortunately this weekend I have scheduled events Sat. and Sun. that can't be avoided. If the following weekend is too far away for you then we could consider this coming Fri. evening. What do you think? Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Jankowiak > Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 11:24 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: old PCs and CGA monitors, more etc free > > you pick up in Dallas; south oak cliff. > > Have several compaq luggables, a couple of TI professional > computers, a bunch of CGA and some EGA monitors, several PC > XT 286 386 deskpros, sanyo PC, etc, also a few remaining > oldies like a DEC LP01 line printer, the first DEC line > printer, and a vaxmate, and some rainbow softeware, PC parts, > NOS 5.25 disks, an old fairchild video game console, ad > nauseum, etc.. just bring a bobtail truck. Winner (must) take all. > > all free, otherwise soon it must go out to the bad place. lab > must be clear soon. > > 214-763-4764 Patrick From mokuba at gmail.com Tue Sep 20 22:07:49 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 23:07:49 -0400 Subject: Kaypro boot disk. In-Reply-To: <432EC833.3030502@srv.net> Message-ID: I've been waiting for word back on the new classiccmp.org design, putting the pieces in place would be no problem. On 9/19/05 10:16 AM, "Kevin Handy" wrote: > Bradley Slavik wrote: > >> A colleague of mine is looking for a boot disk for a Kaypro 4 '84. He >> says : >> >> "I have a Kaypro 4 (83), Kaypro 4(84), and a Kaypro 10. >> The boot disks for all three are mutually incompatible. >> What I still need is a boot disk for Kaypro 4(84)." >> >> (These are 5.25 inch floppies, of course. An actual disk would be great, >> but he says that if somebody wanted to send a disk image, he could work >> with that, as long as he knew what program was used to create it.) >> >> Can anyone email me images of all boot disks or direct me to appropriate >> web site? I will reimburse postage/disk costs if someone wishes to send >> physical disks instead of emailing images. >> >> Braldey Slavik >> >> >> >> > Did anyone ever set up an archive for cpm disks? > There was a lot of talk about it a while ago when Maslin's archine > went away. Anyone attempting to re-create it yet? > From gilcarrick at comcast.net Tue Sep 20 22:22:18 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 22:22:18 -0500 Subject: Scanning In-Reply-To: <200509210311.j8L3BoNq093788@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200509210331.j8L3VhlR093902@keith.ezwind.net> Sorry about that previous post to the list. If it went out, it was intended only for Pat. But having interrupted you, let me ask a question. I have some documents I am going to be scanning. Mostly they will fall into two categories: 1) Things that are mostly schematics. 2) Things with a large text component that I might want to try to OCR. Questions: a) What resolution should I use for these two things? b) What OCR software do you recommend when I am scanning a book that has to be scanned 1 page at a time. I started with the Brainiacs book from Edmund C. Berkeley and every page is a separate tiff file. Now this book has very little text, so I could just tar them or zip them, but if I had one with lots of text, how can I get all these tiff files back into one document when I OCR it without a bunch of cutting ans pasting? TIA, Gil From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Sep 20 22:44:21 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 23:44:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Scanning In-Reply-To: <200509210331.j8L3VhlR093902@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200509210331.j8L3VhlR093902@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200509210347.XAA16773@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I have some documents I am going to be scanning. [...] > Questions: > a) What resolution should I use for these two things? As high as available. (If you're tight on disk, I could see backing off a bit, but storage will only get cheaper, and scans, once made, will never get better.) > b) What OCR software do you recommend when I am scanning a book that > has to be scanned 1 page at a time. I have no recommendations, since I've never used OCR software; I'm answering this point to point to the discussion in the archives about what format to store scans in, since a number of the points made in that thread apply here. (We _do_ have archives, I trust?) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Sep 20 08:26:30 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 14:26:30 +0100 Subject: Altos 586 system sold on eBay In-Reply-To: <20050919222552.508122be.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050919222552.508122be.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43300E06.7000908@gjcp.net> Scott Stevens wrote: > I have an Altos 586 and would REALLY like to have diskettes to reinstall > the OS 'stock' (mine has a limited version of Xenix with an 'office > suite' on it as well). Does anybody know this buyer? > I'd like a copy of the install media for my Altos 386, or any other information about it... Gordon. From pnougues at gmail.com Tue Sep 20 12:41:20 2005 From: pnougues at gmail.com (Patrice Nougues) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 19:41:20 +0200 Subject: Workslate do you still have it? Message-ID: Hi, Are you looking for a Workslate? I have an original from December 92 with several SW cartridges, printer, modem in original state. Patrice Nougu?s -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.3/106 - Release Date: 19/09/2005 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 20 21:38:52 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 19:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies In-Reply-To: <20050919194906.73ace43a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050921023852.31053.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> yeah do both if you can. But create the entire disk image FIRST. Sometimes you don't get a second try... --- Scott Stevens wrote: > On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 10:56:27 -0700 (PDT) > "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > > > Hi > > I tend to agree with Sellam. If one wants, it > > is usually a trivial job to extract the file(s) of > > interest from an image. It is impossible to guess > > what piece might be missing from a pile of files. > > I don't think space is an issue any more. > > Dwight > > > The solution to the conflict of opinions is to > archive BOTH. > > I don't think space is an issue anymore. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From todd at compusleuth.com Tue Sep 20 22:20:23 2005 From: todd at compusleuth.com (todd at compusleuth.com) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 23:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: QBUS RLV12 and the VAX Message-ID: <55448.155.70.141.45.1127272823.squirrel@155.70.141.45> Curt: I saw an old post of yours from 2003 included below, about the RLV12. I am working on a hobby/project to copy a large collection of my old software from RL02. I was wondering if you ever got your RLV12 to work with the VAX? I was under the impression that because the RLV12 controler was old PDP11 DMA it could not handle the VAX MMU, so the DMA would write the data to the wrong area of memory? I do know that DEC never supported the RLV12 with any QBUS VAX. Todd > Hi, > > I've got an RL02 connected to my Vax 4000-200 through an RLV12 QBus > controller. > > The Drive is spinning up fine and the Ready light is Lit, the Fault light > goes off once power to the Vax is started and doing a SHO DEV at the Chevron > prompt and within OpenVMS both show: > > RLV12 Controller 0 (774400) > -DLA3 (RL02) > > Which looks great from my perspective, the drive ID plug is a 3, so DLA3 makes > total sense. In the SHO DEV within OpenVMS does display the drive as being > online. > > So my problem is with MOUNT, everytime I go to mount the drive the system > simply hangs and never seems to complete the mount, I end up having to CTRL- > BREAK to Halt the system back to Chevron and b up again from my DSSI DIA0: > > Anyone have any idea's what I'm doing wrong or what may be wrong??? > > I've tried with a /FOREIGN too since this platters are from an 11/730 and many > of the handwritten labels on the disk paks say RSTS on them, so I wasn't sure > if it was a format issue or something, I could really use some help/advice from > anyone with a lot of experience with the quirks of the RL's. > > Thanks much, > > PS: If anyone has an RK05 or RK07 DECPack for sale and possibly an RKV11D Qbus > controller I am in the market for one. > > Curt > From Rinaldo.Eversdijk at stork.com Wed Sep 21 02:59:54 2005 From: Rinaldo.Eversdijk at stork.com (Rinaldo.Eversdijk at stork.com) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:59:54 +0200 Subject: please subscribe Message-ID: <8396A6180D00874B9A19FD728529F06A06B104@nlhoo1-exc010.aerospace.intra> Dear people, Please subscribe me from the mailing list, as it is not working properly via your webside. Best regards, Rinaldo Eversdijk -----Original Message----- From: Spam Warning Sent: woensdag 21 september 2005 9:31 To: Rinaldo Eversdijk Subject: GROUP Wall Server: smtp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail-Info (mail2.box, checking Process M02, message 0029453A) From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" CC: Rec.: rinaldo.eversdijk at stork.com Date: 09/21/2005 04:38:52 AM Subject: Re: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies This mail has been notified as SPAM-Mail. If it is mail which is not SPAM please contact your local supportdesk. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Quarantine Report Link: (Document link: Quarantine Report) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------ Summary Report multiple text dump BADMAILS BADMAILS = 80 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------ Detailed Report Element: multiple text dump Analyzer Report ************************** Call Analyzer: Stork CORE Analyzer Spam Source File: C:\WINNT\TEMP\tk\62c\af8\Text_Normalizer_3844 Results: BADMAILS: 80 BADMAILS-DV: 1221 ************************** GROUP Content Analyser V2.0, [Nov 11 2004 14:31:34] ---------------------------------------------------- SVM Classificator GROUP Classifier - created 20-Sep-2005 15:01 supports 2 classes based on a training set of 1242 documents. The total accuracy of the Classificator is 92.03% Analyse file C:\WINNT\TEMP\tk\62c\af8\Text_Normalizer_3844 C:\WINNT\TEMP\tk\62c\af8\Text_Normalizer_3844 Result: BADMAILS=80 Result: BADMAILS-DV=1221 duration: 0.0sec Convert Report ************************** Call Converter: Text Normalizer Source File: C:\WINNT\TEMP\tk\62c\af8\multipleTextDump_3843 Target File: C:\WINNT\TEMP\tk\62c\af8\Text_Normalizer_3844 ************************** Text Normalizer V1.2 [Nov 11 2004 14:32:03] Used parameters: RemoveSpacedTypeFace = YES RemoveUnixBoldTypeFace = YES ClipLineBeginnings = YES ClipLineEnds = YES RemoveSyllableDivisions = YES Timeout = 1 minutes NoErrorOnTimeout = YES MaxNormalizedCharacters = 10000 Line beginnings to remove: "* " ">" Line ends to remove: "*" Syllable division characters: '-' '~' Source file: "C:\WINNT\TEMP\tk\62c\af8\multipleTextDump_3843" Destination file: "C:\WINNT\TEMP\tk\62c\af8\Text_Normalizer_3844" => Ok! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any attachment(s) sent with it are intended exclusively for the addressee(s), and may not be used by, opened by, passed on to, or made available for use to, any person other than the addressee(s). Stork rules out any and all liabilities resulting from any electronic transmission. From ikvsabre at comcast.net Wed Sep 21 06:18:39 2005 From: ikvsabre at comcast.net (Joe Stevenson) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 07:18:39 -0400 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200509210718390296.04F53DC8@smtp.comcast.net> I've never had a problem using PayPal, as a buyer OR as a seller. Joe On 9/18/2005 at 8:52 PM William Donzelli wrote: *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** >> To be honest just about every auction I bid on takes Paypal and very few >> take Bidpay (something I have never used anyway). >> Atleast Paypal has verified addresses so you know you are sending a >package >> to the persons house that is paying you > >For the record, probably a good quarter of the Paypal orders I get are >UNVERIFIED addresses. > >I hate Paypal. And Bidpay for that matter. > >Cash - the most sincere form of payment. > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Sep 21 02:32:03 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 07:32:03 +0000 Subject: WTB: Tower case for IBM model 80, 60 or 65 (PS/2) Message-ID: <20050921112528.YPUC28424.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> No need for hd but need the HD rails, floppy drives and power supply. I have the model 80 motherboard waiting for a case. If someone wants the 220AC only PSU for industrial 80/60/65, feel free to take it. PSU is a big restangular passive cooled with screened cage cover. I was advised that to change this 220VAC unit to 115VAC would not work even I knew what exactly to do just install voltage doubler circuit. Cheers, Wizard From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Wed Sep 21 06:40:28 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:40:28 +0200 Subject: Tower case for IBM model 80, 60 or 65 (PS/2) References: <20050921112528.YPUC28424.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <001501c5bea1$43a3d670$2101a8c0@finans> > I was advised that to change this 220VAC unit to 115VAC would > not work even I knew what exactly to do just install voltage doubler > circuit. Can't you use an auto transformer? Nico From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Sep 21 07:41:48 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:41:48 +0100 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <200509210718390296.04F53DC8@smtp.comcast.net> References: <200509210718390296.04F53DC8@smtp.comcast.net> Message-ID: <26c11a6405092105412a2bd65a@mail.gmail.com> On 9/21/05, Joe Stevenson wrote: > I've never had a problem using PayPal, as a buyer OR as a seller. > > Joe > > Me too, in fact twice I have got money back from paypal when sellers haven't sent the goods. Dan From allain at panix.com Wed Sep 21 09:06:02 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:06:02 -0400 Subject: Scanning References: <200509210331.j8L3VhlR093902@keith.ezwind.net> <200509210347.XAA16773@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <008b01c5beb5$9a4b20a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > b) What OCR software do you recommend when I am scanning > a book that has to be scanned 1 page at a time. I use Corel OCR-Trace v8, from 1998, nearly on topic. It really wants to use 300dpi 1 level, and I typically save as 300dpi 8bit for posterity, then downcast to 1bit before the OCR. Scanning at 2400 bpi seems too much like microscopy to be practical . John A. From gilcarrick at comcast.net Wed Sep 21 09:23:21 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:23:21 -0500 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <200509210718390296.04F53DC8@smtp.comcast.net> Message-ID: <200509211432.j8LEWtYe099026@keith.ezwind.net> I used BidPay once for an international order. It was a big pain, IIRC. I have never sold, so have no personal observation there, but if you Google about it you find all kinds of horror stories about PayPal locking an account retroactively and freezing all the funds for 6 months because of a single buyer complaint. Seemed pretty heavy handed. They deal from a position of strength. You have to agree to their contract or not use their service. These might all stem from before they were bought by eBay. Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joe Stevenson > Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 6:19 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re[2]: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! > > I've never had a problem using PayPal, as a buyer OR as a seller. > > Joe ... From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 21 09:34:40 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:34:40 -0500 Subject: Kaypro boot disk. References: Message-ID: <007a01c5beb9$a4633740$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Gary wrote... > I've been waiting for word back on the new classiccmp.org design, putting > the pieces in place would be no problem. Gary, I set up space for you on the classiccmp server to put up the cpm archive back on 6/15/05. There's no reason to wait on the new classiccmp.org website design. Back on 6/20/05 I had said "You can start uploading any files you want now, making directories, html content, etc. Enjoy." Let me know if you ran into any trouble I'm not aware of! Jay From blkline at attglobal.net Wed Sep 21 09:36:00 2005 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:36:00 -0400 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <200509211432.j8LEWtYe099026@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200509211432.j8LEWtYe099026@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <43316FD0.4050303@attglobal.net> Gil Carrick wrote: > I used BidPay once for an international order. It was a big pain, IIRC. > [snip] > position of strength. You have to agree to their contract or not use their > service. These might all stem from before they were bought by eBay. > > Gil I think that you'll find your last to be correct. The noise has dropped considerably since eBay bought the company. BK From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Sep 21 10:02:15 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:02:15 -0500 Subject: QBUS RLV12 and the VAX In-Reply-To: <55448.155.70.141.45.1127272823.squirrel@155.70.141.45> References: <55448.155.70.141.45.1127272823.squirrel@155.70.141.45> Message-ID: <200509211002.15498.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 20 September 2005 22:20, todd at compusleuth.com wrote: > Curt: > I saw an old post of yours from 2003 included below, about the > RLV12. > > I am working on a hobby/project to copy a large collection of > my old software from RL02. I was wondering if you ever got your RLV12 > to work with the VAX? I was under the impression that because the > RLV12 controler was old PDP11 DMA it could not handle the VAX MMU, so > the DMA would write the data to the wrong area of memory? I do know > that DEC never supported the RLV12 with any QBUS VAX. I'm not Curt, but I'll answer anyways. BTW, your email address looks familiar. ;) The RLV11 doesn't work on a VAX, because it can only do 18-bit addressing, not 22-bit addressing. The RLV12 works fine on a VAX, as SRM and VMS both identify it, and use it properly. I've made images of quite a few RL02 carts using VMS's BACKUP/PHYSICAL command. Pat > > Hi, > > > > I've got an RL02 connected to my Vax 4000-200 through an RLV12 > > QBus controller. > > > > The Drive is spinning up fine and the Ready light is Lit, the > > Fault light goes off once power to the Vax is started and doing a > > SHO DEV at the > > Chevron > > > prompt and within OpenVMS both show: > > > > RLV12 Controller 0 (774400) > > -DLA3 (RL02) > > > > Which looks great from my perspective, the drive ID plug is a 3, so > > DLA3 > > makes > > > total sense. In the SHO DEV within OpenVMS does display the drive > > as > > being > > > online. > > > > So my problem is with MOUNT, everytime I go to mount the drive the > > system simply hangs and never seems to complete the mount, I end up > > having to > > CTRL- > > > BREAK to Halt the system back to Chevron and b up again from my > > DSSI DIA0: > > > > Anyone have any idea's what I'm doing wrong or what may be wrong??? > > > > I've tried with a /FOREIGN too since this platters are from an > > 11/730 > > and many > > > of the handwritten labels on the disk paks say RSTS on them, so I > > wasn't > > sure > > > if it was a format issue or something, I could really use some > > help/advice from > > > anyone with a lot of experience with the quirks of the RL's. > > > > Thanks much, > > > > PS: If anyone has an RK05 or RK07 DECPack for sale and possibly an > > RKV11D Qbus > > > controller I am in the market for one. > > > > Curt -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 21 10:08:25 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 08:08:25 -0700 Subject: QBUS RLV12 and the VAX In-Reply-To: <200509211002.15498.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <55448.155.70.141.45.1127272823.squirrel@155.70.141.45> <200509211002.15498.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: At 10:02 AM -0500 9/21/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >On Tuesday 20 September 2005 22:20, todd at compusleuth.com wrote: >> Curt: >> I saw an old post of yours from 2003 included below, about the >> RLV12. >> >> I am working on a hobby/project to copy a large collection of >> my old software from RL02. I was wondering if you ever got your RLV12 >> to work with the VAX? I was under the impression that because the >> RLV12 controler was old PDP11 DMA it could not handle the VAX MMU, so >> the DMA would write the data to the wrong area of memory? I do know >> that DEC never supported the RLV12 with any QBUS VAX. > >I'm not Curt, but I'll answer anyways. BTW, your email address looks >familiar. ;) > >The RLV11 doesn't work on a VAX, because it can only do 18-bit >addressing, not 22-bit addressing. The RLV12 works fine on a VAX, as >SRM and VMS both identify it, and use it properly. I've made images of >quite a few RL02 carts using VMS's BACKUP/PHYSICAL command. I have a MicroVAX III that specifically exists for this (the downside being it's so far back in my one storage unit it isn't funny). I've had both RL01 and RL02 drives hooked up to it, and read both types of carts successfully. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Sep 21 10:16:00 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:16:00 -0400 Subject: Hero-Jr Parts Needed In-Reply-To: <00b001c5be4f$4dd05580$29406b43@66067007> References: <00c301c5bd90$70803d80$39406b43@66067007> <432F827F.6010605@atarimuseum.com> <00b001c5be4f$4dd05580$29406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <43317930.8080302@atarimuseum.com> Yeah, I hear ya on that.... I've been bidding on a bunch of Corvus equipment lately and keep getting outbid as I'm just not going to pay the outrageous ebay prices above what I think is fair for the equipment. Quite frankly I was rather surprised at home many people bid on Corvus stuff, I honestly thought Al Kossow and I were about the only people on the face of the earth who even knew what the stuff was! ;-) Curt Keys wrote: > The prices I have seen on ebay are too high for my budget. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" > > To: ; "and Off-Topic Posts" > <"Discussion at smtp3.suscom.net"@cnc.net:On-Topiccctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 10:31 PM > Subject: Re: Hero-Jr Parts Needed > > >> I think that there is actually one on ebay right now listed for >> parts, I know I see them often on Ebay, I wish I hadn't sold mine >> back in 97' >> >> >> >> Curt >> >> >> >> Keys wrote: >> >>> Does anyone on the list have some spare Hero-Jr parts? >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this outgoing message. >> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.1/104 - Release Date: >> 9/16/2005 >> >> > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.3/107 - Release Date: 9/20/2005 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Sep 21 11:31:49 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:31:49 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <200509211432.j8LEWtYe099026@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200509210718390296.04F53DC8@smtp.comcast.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050921113149.3317a39e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:23 AM 9/21/05 -0500, Gil wrote: >I used BidPay once for an international order. It was a big pain, IIRC. > >I have never sold, so have no personal observation there, but if you Google >about it you find all kinds of horror stories about PayPal Here are a couple. I strongly suggest that anyone that buys or sells over the net read them. locking an >account retroactively and freezing all the funds for 6 months because of a >single buyer complaint. I've got news for you, they will freeze payments even with NO complaints! A friend of mine's brother sold a laptop on E-bay for $800. He recieved payment via PP and shipped the laptop. The buyer confirmed that he recieved it and that he was satisfied with it. Months later E-bay pulled $800 from the seller's account for the transaction with no explaination. The seller checked with the buyer and the buyer was still satisfied with the transaction and said that he hadn't made any complaint to PP. He even wrote a letter to that affect to both PP and the seller but PP still refuses to return the sellers money or give any explaination of my they pulled it. The last time that I talked to my friend it had been going on for 8 months with no end in sight. A word to the wise; PP is not a bank and is therefore not regulated. They can do anything they want and you have NO recourse. I frequently sell stuff on E-bay and I have a LOT of people that want me to take PP but I absolutely refuse to!!!! I've used BidPay as a seller and had no problems with it. >Seemed pretty heavy handed. They deal from a >position of strength. You have to agree to their contract or not use their >service. >These might all stem from before they were bought by eBay. Do you REALLY expect them to be any better after the Ebay take over? E-bay has a long history of high handness and raising rates simply because they can. Ebay is a PRIVATE company and is answerable to no one so don't expect fairness from them. Joe From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 21 10:36:53 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:36:53 +0200 Subject: Scanning In-Reply-To: <200509210331.j8L3VhlR093902@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200509210311.j8L3BoNq093788@keith.ezwind.net> <200509210331.j8L3VhlR093902@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050921173653.4bd01ba4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 22:22:18 -0500 "Gil Carrick" wrote: > 1) Things that are mostly schematics. > > 2) Things with a large text component that I might want to try to OCR. > Questions: > > a) What resolution should I use for these two things? I found 300 dpi at 1 bpp sufficient for those things. I recommend the fax G4 compression on 1 bpp images with line art. Works better then JPEG. PDF and IIRC TIFF files support G4 compression. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 21 10:44:49 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:44:49 -0400 Subject: Hero-Jr Parts Needed In-Reply-To: <43317930.8080302@atarimuseum.com> References: <00c301c5bd90$70803d80$39406b43@66067007> <432F827F.6010605@atarimuseum.com> <00b001c5be4f$4dd05580$29406b43@66067007> <43317930.8080302@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > Keys wrote: > > > The prices I have seen on ebay are too high for my budget. If you are into robots, not just the Hero, someone in California bought out all the RB5X stock from the original company in Denver and will be selling kits next year. He's made a mention on the rb5x Yahoo Group of a target price of $1,400 including charger and speech board. Tying back to earlier list discussions, this is the robot with the INS8073 "TinyBASIC" chip - easy to program form either a serial terminal or PeeCee w/terminal emulator. Assembled rb5x robots tend to go for around $2K on eBay from what I've seen, for comparison. -ethan From vrs at msn.com Wed Sep 21 11:12:55 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:12:55 -0700 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! References: <200509210718390296.04F53DC8@smtp.comcast.net> <3.0.6.16.20050921113149.3317a39e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: From: "Joe R." > Here are a couple. I strongly suggest that anyone that buys or sells > over the net read them. > > I have to say that that looks a lot like a shill for www.free-merchant.com. > >These might all stem from before they were bought by eBay. > > Do you REALLY expect them to be any better after the Ebay take over? > E-bay has a long history of high handness and raising rates simply because > they can. Ebay is a PRIVATE company and is answerable to no one so don't > expect fairness from them. I *do* expect them to be better after the eBay take-over. eBay gets it's money exclusively from sellers, and is clearly biased toward sellers. I'd expect that to rub off a bit on their subsidiary, over time. Of course, to the extent that both are near-monopolies, neither will be inclined to do all that well by their customers. (That said, I still think both are providing excellent value.) Vince From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Wed Sep 21 11:16:30 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050921113149.3317a39e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050921161632.59035.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Joe R." wrote: > At 09:23 AM 9/21/05 -0500, Gil wrote: > > Here are a couple. I strongly suggest that anyone > that buys or sells > over the net read them. > > > I think if you want to make a rational decision about using paypal (or any other service or buying any product) you have to evaluate the ratio of number of complaints to number of transactions, and ignore the "squeaky wheel" people who tend to amplify problems, note also that paypalwarning.com advertises merchant accounts on their home page http://www.free-merchant.com/, conflict of interest?, hmmmm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 21 11:18:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:18:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hero-Jr Parts Needed In-Reply-To: <43317930.8080302@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Yeah, I hear ya on that.... I've been bidding on a bunch of Corvus > equipment lately and keep getting outbid as I'm just not going to pay > the outrageous ebay prices above what I think is fair for the > equipment. Quite frankly I was rather surprised at home many people > bid on Corvus stuff, I honestly thought Al Kossow and I were about the > only people on the face of the earth who even knew what the stuff was! ;-) Well, keep in mind that there are still many collectors out there that we haven't "reached" yet, and there are also people who will bid ridiculous amounts on anything just because it looks cool. But I see what you mean. I did a search on concluded auctions and some guy is buying up stuff at stupid prices. Item #5242546074 is a relatively common hard drive interface for the Apple ][. He paid $77. I should go dig out the 3-4 I have in my Apple ][ junkbox. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 21 12:03:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Elephant Memory Systems tribute page Message-ID: http://home.comcast.net/~kevin_d_clark/ems/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 21 12:05:21 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:05:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050921113149.3317a39e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Joe R. wrote: > At 09:23 AM 9/21/05 -0500, Gil wrote: > >I used BidPay once for an international order. It was a big pain, IIRC. > > > >I have never sold, so have no personal observation there, but if you Google > >about it you find all kinds of horror stories about PayPal > > Here are a couple. I strongly suggest that anyone that buys or sells > over the net read them. > > > This site exists solely to scare people into subscribing to their merchant services account. It's not a bad deal, but I question the tactics used to sell their services. BTW, their "limited time special" keeps getting renewed every day. So it's not very limited. > I've got news for you, they will freeze payments even with NO complaints! > A friend of mine's brother sold a laptop on E-bay for $800. He recieved > payment via PP and shipped the laptop. The buyer confirmed that he recieved > it and that he was satisfied with it. Months later E-bay pulled $800 from > the seller's account for the transaction with no explaination. The seller > checked with the buyer and the buyer was still satisfied with the > transaction and said that he hadn't made any complaint to PP. He even wrote > a letter to that affect to both PP and the seller but PP still refuses to > return the sellers money or give any explaination of my they pulled it. The > last time that I talked to my friend it had been going on for 8 months with > no end in sight. Has he ever heard of the "legal system"? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Sep 21 13:30:05 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 19:30:05 +0100 Subject: Scanning In-Reply-To: <20050921173653.4bd01ba4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <200509210311.j8L3BoNq093788@keith.ezwind.net> <200509210331.j8L3VhlR093902@keith.ezwind.net> <20050921173653.4bd01ba4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In message <20050921173653.4bd01ba4.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Jochen Kunz wrote: > I found 300 dpi at 1 bpp sufficient for those things. I recommend the > fax G4 compression on 1 bpp images with line art. Works better then > JPEG. PDF and IIRC TIFF files support G4 compression. IrfanView's "Enhance Colours" tool is very handy for converting greyscale images to B&W. Set the contrast to maximum (127), then tweak the brightness until you get something resembling readable text. Remember the settings, then use them for the rest of the scans. Freely available from (freeware, no source code, Windows only). I used to use ImageMagick when scanning books - I loaded the image into IrfanView to find out where the "shadow" started (on both odd and even pages). Next I used IM to crop them, then convert to B&W (100% contrast, play with the brightness). Finally I used Irfanview to convert the images into G4-compressed TIFFs. I always kept the cropped (and uncropped) 8-bit greyscale images though - just in case the extra quality was required at some point. - open source, runs on basically anything with a C compiler. Another hint: Tumble is very handy for converting TIFFs into PDFs. - only officially works on Linux, but I've had it running on Windows too after compiling it with Mingw32. Hasn't been updated for nearly two years, but still very handy when used in conjunction with Imagemagick. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook For sale: Politician's brain. Never used. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 21 14:09:22 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:09:22 +0200 Subject: QBUS RLV12 and the VAX In-Reply-To: <200509211002.15498.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <55448.155.70.141.45.1127272823.squirrel@155.70.141.45> <200509211002.15498.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050921210922.0e14e620.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:02:15 -0500 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > The RLV11 doesn't work on a VAX, because it can only do 18-bit > addressing, not 22-bit addressing. Depends on the operating system. NetBSD uses only 18 bit DMA addresing for both UniBus and QBus. (NetBSD treats UniBus and QBus (nearly) as the same). Any further addressing is done with the UniBus map / IO-MMU. So with NetBSD you can use a RLV11. I know this as a RLV11 is mounted in my VAX 4000-400, driving a RL02. :-) The problem with the RLV11 is: It is a two card set. It needs two QQ/CD slots and uses some pins on the QBus for test signals, that are used for Q22 signals also. I had to open some traces on the board to make it work in the Q22 VAX. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 21 10:51:59 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 08:51:59 -0700 Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies In-Reply-To: <200509201205.41380.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20050919132605.CZDV10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <200509191000000466.0A952516@10.0.0.252> <200509201205.41380.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200509210851590914.14A393C0@10.0.0.252> On 9/20/2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >If you use Tim Mann's catweasel tools and generate DMK images (are there >any others that run on Linux?), it definately does not store them in >flux-transition format. You can (and I have) read the data using your >favorite text/hex editor. I'm familiar with Tim Mann's work and have used his utilities to archive some RX02 diskettes. But since Tim interprets the format before storing it, the result can be a less-than-accurate recreation, particularly for the many formats his utility knows nothing about. Again, this is more akin to storing the files of the diskette than storing the format of floppy itself. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 21 11:04:34 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:04:34 -0700 Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies In-Reply-To: <20050921023852.31053.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050921023852.31053.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200509210904340228.14AF164A@10.0.0.252> On 9/20/2005, Chris M wrote: >yeah do both if you can. But create the entire disk >image FIRST. Sometimes you don't get a second try... No kidding! That's where the Catweasel approach works for me. Record the raw image and then use it to reconstruct the original if the original starts to fail during subsequent reading. I encounter this quite a bit in old off-brand 5.25' diskettes used in Commodore 15xx drives. You know it's all over when you start to hear that awful head squeal. It usually means that the floppy is toast and that you need to get your head-cleaning kit out. Speaking of Commodores, has anyone found a better drive than the Chinons for the 1571? In particular, the Chinon's seem to have a less-than robust upper head support structure. I've got some old CDC/MPI drives that look like they may be good candidates for modification. Cheers, Chuck From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Sep 21 15:00:13 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:00:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: QBUS RLV12 and the VAX In-Reply-To: <55448.155.70.141.45.1127272823.squirrel@155.70.141.45> References: <55448.155.70.141.45.1127272823.squirrel@155.70.141.45> Message-ID: <50588.82.152.112.73.1127332813.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Curt: > I saw an old post of yours from 2003 included below, about the > RLV12. > > I am working on a hobby/project to copy a large collection of my old > software from RL02. I was wondering if you ever got your RLV12 to work > with the VAX? I was under the impression that because the RLV12 controler > was old PDP11 DMA it could not handle the VAX MMU, so the DMA would write > the data to the wrong area of memory? I do know that DEC never supported > the RLV12 with any QBUS VAX. Hi Todd, Like others who've posted I've got an MVII running an RLV12 for VAX access to my RL02s. As for DEC support I'm fairly sure the UK arm of DEC did, certainly in the mid 1980s we had, well, the same VAX I've got now running the same RLV12 with the same RL02. DEC engineers were fine with it, even though I'd built the 3 RL02s into a cab we'd rescued and I'd monikered it as an SA3RL02 :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From tomj at wps.com Wed Sep 21 15:07:56 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies In-Reply-To: <20050921023852.31053.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050921023852.31053.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050921125857.C924@fiche.wps.com> On Tue, 20 Sep 2005, Chris M wrote: > yeah do both if you can. But create the entire disk > image FIRST. Sometimes you don't get a second try... Good point. A nice hack would be a cgi script that *mounts* the CP/M image for FTP access to the disk-image contents: ftp://url/path/IMAGES/DISK99 # points to sector image ftp://url/cpmfiles?i=DISK99 # contents of DISK99 cgi cpmfiles takes one arg (i) that's the image to mount. Then you could have it all; and there would be no chance for the files to get out of sync. This could be generalized on Real OSs such that $ cpmfile DISK99.img --extract DDT.COM (where DISK99.img is a CP/M image file) extracts DDT.COM and leaves it laying about. All sorts of obvious creeping featuritis comes to mind: $ cpmfile *.img --list SID.COM I hand-wave CP/M diskette geometry issues as obvious (--geom spt/tracks/skew/sides/etc). From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 21 15:45:46 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:45:46 -0700 Subject: CP/M archive to image 8" CP/M floppies Message-ID: <71370c8f998dcfa3591680dabe77b0db@bitsavers.org> >If you use Tim Mann's catweasel tools and generate DMK images (are there >any others that run on Linux?) rfloppy part of Eric Smith's DMKlib package http://dmklib.brouhaha.com/ From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Sep 21 17:56:03 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 18:56:03 -0400 Subject: Kaypro boot disk. In-Reply-To: <007a01c5beb9$a4633740$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: Alrighty, I was just wanting it to all match up =] Now people need to send me stuff! Last time I put out a request I got a whopping one response! Email's good, gmail can hold whatever you throw at it :) On 9/21/05 10:34 AM, "Jay West" wrote: > Gary wrote... >> I've been waiting for word back on the new classiccmp.org design, putting >> the pieces in place would be no problem. > > Gary, I set up space for you on the classiccmp server to put up the cpm > archive back on 6/15/05. There's no reason to wait on the new classiccmp.org > website design. Back on 6/20/05 I had said "You can start uploading any > files you want now, making directories, html > content, etc. Enjoy." > > Let me know if you ran into any trouble I'm not aware of! > > Jay > From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 21 18:01:07 2005 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 19:01:07 -0400 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050921113149.3317a39e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200509210718390296.04F53DC8@smtp.comcast.net> <3.0.6.16.20050921113149.3317a39e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4331E633.9050505@bellsouth.net> Joe, I knew you were going to put in your 2 cents worth on this subject sooner or later . . . ;-) > Months later E-bay pulled $800 from > the seller's account for the transaction with no explaination. Solution: don't keep funds in your PayPal account. As a seller, I do a few dozen PayPal transaction each month, mostly to buyers outside the USA. In fact, when I get a large (over $200) order from my web site from a first-time non-USA buyer who wants to use a credit card, I will usually insist that they use PayPal instead (since I have near-zero recourse if the buyer uses a hot credit card). At the end of the day, I transfer all of my PayPal receipts to my bank account, so PayPal can never "seize" my funds. I've never had any problems with PayPal, (except that their site is God-awful slow and their "send invoice" procedure is clunky and time-consuming) and the fees they charge are about the same as what I pay my merchant processing company for charge card transactions (about 3 percent). Just *my* two cents worth ;-) Glen 0/0 Joe R. wrote: > At 09:23 AM 9/21/05 -0500, Gil wrote: > >>I used BidPay once for an international order. It was a big pain, IIRC. >> >>I have never sold, so have no personal observation there, but if you Google >>about it you find all kinds of horror stories about PayPal > > > Here are a couple. I strongly suggest that anyone that buys or sells > over the net read them. > > > > > locking an > >>account retroactively and freezing all the funds for 6 months because of a >>single buyer complaint. > > > I've got news for you, they will freeze payments even with NO complaints! > A friend of mine's brother sold a laptop on E-bay for $800. He recieved > payment via PP and shipped the laptop. The buyer confirmed that he recieved > it and that he was satisfied with it. Months later E-bay pulled $800 from > the seller's account for the transaction with no explaination. The seller > checked with the buyer and the buyer was still satisfied with the > transaction and said that he hadn't made any complaint to PP. He even wrote > a letter to that affect to both PP and the seller but PP still refuses to > return the sellers money or give any explaination of my they pulled it. The > last time that I talked to my friend it had been going on for 8 months with > no end in sight. > > A word to the wise; PP is not a bank and is therefore not regulated. > They can do anything they want and you have NO recourse. > > I frequently sell stuff on E-bay and I have a LOT of people that want me > to take PP but I absolutely refuse to!!!! I've used BidPay as a seller and > had no problems with it. > > >>Seemed pretty heavy handed. They deal from a >>position of strength. You have to agree to their contract or not use their >>service. > > > >>These might all stem from before they were bought by eBay. > > > Do you REALLY expect them to be any better after the Ebay take over? > E-bay has a long history of high handness and raising rates simply because > they can. Ebay is a PRIVATE company and is answerable to no one so don't > expect fairness from them. > > Joe > > > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 21 18:14:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 16:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro boot disk. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > Alrighty, I was just wanting it to all match up =] > > Now people need to send me stuff! Last time I put out a request I got a > whopping one response! Perhaps because you haven't advertised this well enough. Not many people are going to respond to a message entitled "Re: Kaypro boot disk." by sending you disk images ;) I suggest a formal campaign to solicit system disk images, with e-mail messages, usenet postings, etc. I'll even post a news item to the front page of the Vintage Computer Festival website if you'll send me details of the project and the plan. You might also get Evan Koblentz to add a note to his next Computer Collector Newsletter. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 21 15:34:31 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:34:31 -0700 Subject: WTB: Tower case for IBM model 80, 60 or 65 (PS/2) In-Reply-To: <20050921112528.YPUC28424.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <20050921112528.YPUC28424.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <200509211334310594.15A640AC@10.0.0.252> On 9/21/2005, jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: >I was advised that to change this 220VAC unit to 115VAC would >not work even I knew what exactly to do just install voltage doubler circuit. I got the same story from an IBM marketing rep when I wanted to take an (original) US-use PC to India to run on 220v 50Hz. He was right, but for a reason that I hadn't considered. In the old 60w PC power supplies, the fan is AC-operated and is specific to the line voltage stamped on the nameplate. I simply replaced the fan with a DC-operated one (maybe it taxed the meager +12 supply a bit, but hey, it worked) and bundled the unit off to Bangalore where it put in several years of service. I don't know if the same situation obtains for you, but you could also just keep the box and substitute the innards from a generic PC power supply. I was looking through the stuff in my garage and noted that I still have a carton of old PS/2 Diskette Adapter/A (5.25") boxes. These were surplused by IBM and the drives themselves scavenged for resale, but I've still got the cases complete with power supply and cable and hardware (including the tamper-proof Torx screws) in their original shipping boxes. They're really very well constructed units. Anyone interested? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 21 15:36:17 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:36:17 -0700 Subject: Elephant Memory Systems tribute page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200509211336170398.15A7DDF6@10.0.0.252> On 9/21/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >http://home.comcast.net/~kevin_d_clark/ems/ Quite possibly the worst diskettes, except for "Brown Disk" diskettes that I ever used! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 21 18:46:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:46:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: WTB: Tower case for IBM model 80, 60 or 65 (PS/2) In-Reply-To: <20050921112528.YPUC28424.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Sep 21, 5 07:32:03 am Message-ID: > I was advised that to change this 220VAC unit to 115VAC would > not work even I knew what exactly to do just install voltage doubler > circuit. It's not unheard-of for SMPSUs to contain a mains-frequency transformer, running off the AC mains, to provide the startup supply (or maybe all the supplies for the control electronics). If that's the case, you do need to do more than change the rectifier for a voltage doubler circuit to get the right DC voltage across the mains smoothing capacitor I would be _very_ suprised if this thing cared about mains frequency (within sensible limits). I can see no reason why giving it 220V from a step-up (auto)transformer wouldn't work. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 21 19:36:30 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:36:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Elephant Memory Systems tribute page In-Reply-To: <200509211336170398.15A7DDF6@10.0.0.252> References: <200509211336170398.15A7DDF6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20050921173540.C84509@shell.lmi.net> > >http://home.comcast.net/~kevin_d_clark/ems/ On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Quite possibly the worst diskettes, except for "Brown Disk" diskettes that I ever used! The worst that I ever used were Verbatim a few months before they came out with "Datalife". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 21 19:01:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 01:01:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: WTB: Tower case for IBM model 80, 60 or 65 (PS/2) In-Reply-To: <200509211334310594.15A640AC@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 21, 5 01:34:31 pm Message-ID: > > On 9/21/2005, jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > > >I was advised that to change this 220VAC unit to 115VAC would > >not work even I knew what exactly to do just install voltage doubler circuit. > > I got the same story from an IBM marketing rep when I wanted to take > an (original) US-use PC to India to run on 220v 50Hz. He was right, > but for a reason that I hadn't considered. > > In the old 60w PC power supplies, the fan is AC-operated and is > specific to the line voltage stamped on the nameplate. I simply Interesting... The IBM PC and PC/XT power supplies that I've seen over here are, of course, designed for 230V mains. I am pretty sure they're made by Zenith. From what I remember, the fan is a 12V DC one but there is a mains-frequency transformer with a 115V primary (!) connected between one side of the mains and the centre-tap of the mains smoothing capacitors. A bit of thought shows this is OK... There is an internal link that converts the input rectifier to a voltage doubler and in the process connects this transformer across the mains. In other words it sets it for 115V. The PortablePC is similar, but there's a user-accessible switch to set the input voltage. It does much the same as the intenral link on the other supplies. -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 17 09:53:25 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 07:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF 8 question Message-ID: <20050917145325.45188.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> sort of a vague question, that will undoubtedly be met by a vague response. How much groovy stuph can be found for sale there? Lets take something reasonably scarce as a Mindset. Whats the likelihood of one being offered? Can we assume that most of the people attending the show are on this list? Isnt this list like a virtual VCF, so WHY CANT SOMEONE OFFER ME ONE RIGHT HERE AND SAVE ME THE PLAINFARE. Always looking for groovy vintage stuph, peecee not-compatibles rank high on my list ;) __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Sep 21 19:55:16 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 19:55:16 -0500 Subject: Altos 586 system sold on eBay In-Reply-To: <43300E06.7000908@gjcp.net> References: <20050919222552.508122be.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43300E06.7000908@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20050921195516.425601e5.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 14:26:30 +0100 Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > I have an Altos 586 and would REALLY like to have diskettes to > > reinstall the OS 'stock' (mine has a limited version of Xenix with > > an 'office suite' on it as well). Does anybody know this buyer? > > > > I'd like a copy of the install media for my Altos 386, or any other > information about it... > > Gordon. Is your Altos a 386-processor system? Those are much newer than the 586 which is a five-user 8086 system. Good news- I've heard back from the person who won the bidding on eBay. He didn't get a working boot diskette, but he did get (this is what has me excited about this) the Development Tool diskettes. With what Pat has said he probably has and these other disks, we may be able to pull together a good robust system setup for the Altos 586. I pointed him at Dave Dunfield's site where there's a boot diskette image, and recommended he contact Dave through the site about getting his disks imaged and available. He also got a lot of paper documentation. It will be really great if the OS and a C compiler comes together out of this. Then we can start porting over the classic UNIX sources and make these Altos boxes come alive again in a real way (a vintage UUCP network??). Scott > From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Sep 21 20:00:41 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:00:41 -0500 Subject: WTB: Tower case for IBM model 80, 60 or 65 (PS/2) In-Reply-To: <20050921112528.YPUC28424.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <20050921112528.YPUC28424.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <20050921200041.2890958d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 07:32:03 +0000 jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > No need for hd but need the HD rails, floppy drives and power supply. > > I have the model 80 motherboard waiting for a case. > > If someone wants the 220AC only PSU for industrial 80/60/65, feel > free to take it. PSU is a big restangular passive cooled with > screened cage cover. > > I was advised that to change this 220VAC unit to 115VAC would > not work even I knew what exactly to do just install voltage doubler > circuit. > > Cheers, Wizard A crude method is to find three biggish AC power transformers all the same. Hook all three secondaries together in parallel, then use one of the primaries as the primary and hook the other two secondaries series-aiding to make the 220 volt 'secondary.' Doesn't even matter that much what the secondary voltage of each transformer is, as long as they're identical. A crude, big, heavy, lossy solution, but workable esp. since it's not that hard to find three matching 'boat anchor' transformers at some surplus outfit. From john at guntersville.net Wed Sep 21 19:59:00 2005 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 19:59:00 -0500 Subject: Elephant Memory Systems tribute page References: <200509211336170398.15A7DDF6@10.0.0.252> <20050921173540.C84509@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <433201D4.34D3BA07@guntersville.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > > > >http://home.comcast.net/~kevin_d_clark/ems/ > > On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Quite possibly the worst diskettes, except for "Brown Disk" diskettes that I ever used! > > The worst that I ever used were Verbatim a few months before they came out > with "Datalife". > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com I never had a problem with all the elephant disk that I used back then but the absolute worst that I ever saw was a batch of CDC 5.25" disk that maybe half of them were really useable. I would take anyones noname disks over them any day. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 21 20:07:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 18:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF 8 question In-Reply-To: <20050917145325.45188.qmail@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Sep 2005, Chris M wrote: > sort of a vague question, that will undoubtedly be met > by a vague response. How much groovy stuph can be > found for sale there? Lets take something reasonably > scarce as a Mindset. Whats the likelihood of one being > offered? Can we assume that most of the people > attending the show are on this list? Isnt this list > like a virtual VCF, so WHY CANT SOMEONE OFFER ME ONE > RIGHT HERE AND SAVE ME THE PLAINFARE. Always looking > for groovy vintage stuph, peecee not-compatibles rank > high on my list ;) I can't say you're absolutely going to find one, but you definitely find groovy stuff at the VCF that doesn't turn up anywhere else. Chances of a Mindset showing up at the VCF? If I were to make a wild guess: less than 20%. Try posting your wants to the VCF 8.0 BBS: http://www.vintage.org/2005/main/bbs.php -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Sep 21 20:28:23 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:28:23 -0400 Subject: Kaypro boot disk. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/21/05 7:14 PM, "Vintage Computer Festival" wrote: > On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > >> Alrighty, I was just wanting it to all match up =] >> >> Now people need to send me stuff! Last time I put out a request I got a >> whopping one response! > > Perhaps because you haven't advertised this well enough. Not many people > are going to respond to a message entitled "Re: Kaypro boot disk." by > sending you disk images ;) > > I suggest a formal campaign to solicit system disk images, with e-mail > messages, usenet postings, etc. I'll even post a news item to the front > page of the Vintage Computer Festival website if you'll send me details of > the project and the plan. You might also get Evan Koblentz to add a note > to his next Computer Collector Newsletter. Well damn, that might actually work! :) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Sep 21 20:53:11 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WTB: Tower case for IBM model 80, 60 or 65 (PS/2) In-Reply-To: <20050921200041.2890958d.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050921112528.YPUC28424.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <20050921200041.2890958d.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200509220206.WAA02324@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > A crude method is to find three biggish AC power transformers all the > same. Hook all three secondaries together in parallel, then use one > of the primaries as the primary and hook the other two secondaries > series-aiding to make the 220 volt 'secondary.' Just watch your phasing; get the leads swapped to one of the "other two" transformers and you'll get (nominal) zero voltage instead of double voltage. Indeed, you can do something autotransformerish with only two transformers: ---------------------. IN | --------+------------|------------------------------- | +----+ OUT | | | +------------- | | | | |_()()()()()_| |_()()()()()_| _==========_ _==========_ | ()()()()() | | ()()()()() | | | | | +------------|----+ | +-----------------+ Of course, the three-transformer version produces double voltage that's isolated from the input, whereas the above doesn't. Also, you still have to watch the phasing; get a winding's leads swapped and you get zero voltage instead of doubled voltage. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 21 21:24:48 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 19:24:48 -0700 Subject: Elephant Memory Systems tribute page In-Reply-To: <200509211336170398.15A7DDF6@10.0.0.252> References: <200509211336170398.15A7DDF6@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > On 9/21/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >>http://home.comcast.net/~kevin_d_clark/ems/ > >Quite possibly the worst diskettes, except for "Brown Disk" >diskettes that I ever used! Hmmm, I've still got Apple II software on one of those disks. At least it was still readable about 7 years ago. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From tponsford at theriver.com Wed Sep 21 21:40:13 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 19:40:13 -0700 Subject: [Fwd: VAX 11 -750 rescue in the Chicago area] Message-ID: <4332198D.3040506@theriver.com> posted from the netbsd-vax mailing list -------- Original Message -------- Subject: VAX 11 -750 rescue in the Chicago area Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:13:33 -0500 From: Stan Johnson Reply-To: srj at pobox.com To: port-vax at netbsd.org Hi all In July I posted trying to sale a VAX 11/750. I've had several people try to buy the machine, but the sales have fallen thru for various reasons. I originally thought I had to have the machine sold and gone by the beginning of aug, but I got an extension to the end of sept. for the storage space. Unfortunately the sale that was suppose to move the machine last weekend has seems to have died. If I don't hear from the buyer by tomorrow, I ll need to find someone else to take the machine. So I am starting now since I am running out of time. After my original post several people said I was asking too much money (~$500), but other people seemed to be interested. Is there anyone that can pickup a VAX 11/750 at a location ~40 miles west of Chicago this coming weekend? If you can pickup the machine this weekend it is yours. Pay me what you think the machine is worth, and if you have to spend the money on a truck to transport the machine instead, then so be it. I really want to see the machine saved. Let me know ASAP. If I get no responses by Friday, I'll have to make arrangments to have it hauled away for scrap on Monday. It has to be out of the storage space by Monday evening. Following is a list of what is included. Thanks again for your time, sorry for the short notice........ stan johnson Here is what is included; VAX11-750 including ......Full Set of spares, front panel down to the power supplies, ......Print Set, From mcesari at comcast.net Wed Sep 21 23:24:04 2005 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:24:04 -0600 Subject: For those of you looking to match DEC paint colors Message-ID: <52BBADBC-7151-4810-8AE1-1395EC9178DB@comcast.net> Saw this link in an article on alt.sys.pdp10 -- http://www.hp-store.com/PD_08449.aspx Hopefully still useful. From cannings at earthlink.net Thu Sep 22 02:35:26 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:35:26 -0700 Subject: Hero-Jr Parts Needed References: <00c301c5bd90$70803d80$39406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <000501c5bf48$33d5b040$6401a8c0@hal9000> Yes. What do you need ? regards, Steven C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keys" To: "cctalk at classiccmp" Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 8:07 PM Subject: Hero-Jr Parts Needed > Does anyone on the list have some spare Hero-Jr parts? > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 22 02:57:09 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:57:09 -0700 Subject: WTB: Tower case for IBM model 80, 60 or 65 (PS/2) In-Reply-To: <200509220206.WAA02324@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20050921112528.YPUC28424.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <20050921200041.2890958d.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200509220206.WAA02324@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200509220057090500.18173316@10.0.0.252> On 9/21/2005, der Mouse wrote: >Indeed, you can do something autotransformerish with only two >transformers: > > ---------------------. >IN | > --------+------------|------------------------------- > | +----+ OUT > | | | +------------- > | | | | > |_()()()()()_| |_()()()()()_| > ======================== ...or just one, if you can find a "universal" 120/240 volt transformer of sufficient VA rating (the secondary is NC, so the secondary voltage doesn't matter). I'm not as artistic, so I'll borrow the artwork and just add a couple of lines. The "split bobbin" types are fairly common, even in 220 vac countries, as it lets a manufacturer change the nameplate voltage of a linear power supply with just a change of jumper and fuse. From jonathan.laventhol at imagination.com Thu Sep 22 04:43:57 2005 From: jonathan.laventhol at imagination.com (Jonathan Laventhol) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 10:43:57 +0100 Subject: Regulation of online money (was Re: Don't use "BidPay"!!!!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050921113149.3317a39e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200509210718390296.04F53DC8@smtp.comcast.net> <3.0.6.16.20050921113149.3317a39e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43327CDD.5020107@imagination.com> Hi All -- Joe wrote: > A word to the wise; PP is not a bank and is therefore not regulated. > They can do anything they want and you have NO recourse. I believe that European money institutions are required to be regulated, by the FSA -- same body as regulates banks, insurance companies etc. Quotes from their web sites: PayPal (Europe) Ltd. is authorised and regulated by the Financial Services Authority in the United Kingdom as an electronic money institution. PayPal FSA Register Number: 226056. NOCHEX Ltd is certified as a Small Electronic Money Issuer by the Financial Services Authority and as a Money Service Business by HM Customs & Excise. Just an observation. Couldn't find anything similar on paypal.com nor bidpay.com. Personally I've only used PayPal which has been very good and indeed helped resolve a dispute where seller took the money but I hadn't received the goods. Regards from London. Jonathan. From ntec at btconnect.com Thu Sep 22 05:46:17 2005 From: ntec at btconnect.com (Ntec Solutions) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:46:17 +0100 Subject: Westinghouse PC1100 PLC Programming software? Message-ID: <001101c5bf62$de574a50$0100a8c0@mail> Hi, I am currently working on a project to replace an existing Westinghouse PC1100 plc. I was wondering if you have the PLC programming software to enable me to open the customers Program CD copy. This would allow me to easily convert the program. Would you be so kind as to point me in the right direction. As I am just about to give up? Best Regards Stuart Matthews Ntec Solutions 01753 528321 From guerney at bigpond.com Thu Sep 22 06:26:02 2005 From: guerney at bigpond.com (Phil Guerney) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:26:02 +1000 Subject: Hero-Jr Parts Needed --> deep pocketed Apple buyer References: Message-ID: <006701c5bf68$6a59ef30$94d7828a@Guerney4> Sellam said > some guy is buying up stuff at stupid prices. Item #5242546074 is a > relatively > common hard drive interface for the Apple ][. He paid $77. I was curious enough to see what else this person has bought: in just ONE week! - an Apple coffee mug for $67 - a Lisa mouse prototype for $400 - an Apple III+ NIB for $790 - a NEXT daydream system for $399 and the piece de resistance - a blank Apple keyboard for GBP200 (about USD360) Plus 11 other items to come to a total of $2,745 (USD) Now indeed is the time to put up anything a bit unusual. I bet the seller of that unprinted keyboard is pleased! Phil From fryers at gmail.com Thu Sep 22 07:50:36 2005 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:50:36 +0100 Subject: Westinghouse PC1100 PLC Programming software? In-Reply-To: <001101c5bf62$de574a50$0100a8c0@mail> References: <001101c5bf62$de574a50$0100a8c0@mail> Message-ID: All, This is a bit off topic here, but I hope I am not the only one who takes an interest in old process control systems. On 9/22/05, Ntec Solutions wrote: > I am currently working on a project to replace an existing Westinghouse > PC1100 plc. I can't say I have come across any Westinghouse programmable logic controllers yet and google isn't showing me anything enlightening. So all my advice is going to be quite generic. What are you replacing the PLC with? > I was wondering if you have the PLC programming software to enable me to > open the customers Program CD copy. This would allow me to easily > convert the program. Have you tried contacting Westinghouse to see if it is possible to obtain the PLC programming software? Does the customer have any other documentation that may indicate the algorithms that are implemented in the PLC? > Would you be so kind as to point me in the right direction. As I am just > about to give up? Depending on what you are replacing the PLC with and even with the proper Westinghouse software, you may end up just being able to open the files on the customers backup and print them out. You are not guaranteed any equivalence of functionality by copying the program. If you are desperate to find the contents of the PLC program, use a hex editor or a simple ASCII editor (notepad) to open the file. Some of the older PLC programming software packages kept all their files in ASCII format. You may be lucky. Last suggestion. I am guessing you are upgrading the PLC for some reason, presumably with something a little more powerful than the original Westinghouse PLC. You may want to change the control algorithms to provide a better control of your process. Good luck. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Sep 22 08:07:45 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:07:45 -0500 Subject: Hero-Jr Parts Needed References: <00c301c5bd90$70803d80$39406b43@66067007> <000501c5bf48$33d5b040$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <003f01c5bf76$a11548e0$3d406b43@66067007> Right now I need the back cover panel, a set of the pins that hold the covers, a remote, copy of a manual, and cartridges. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Canning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 2:35 AM Subject: Re: Hero-Jr Parts Needed > Yes. What do you need ? > > regards, Steven C. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Keys" > To: "cctalk at classiccmp" > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 8:07 PM > Subject: Hero-Jr Parts Needed > > >> Does anyone on the list have some spare Hero-Jr parts? >> > From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 22 08:14:28 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:14:28 -0400 Subject: Scanning In-Reply-To: <200509220614.j8M6EmA7097553@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200509221314.j8MDERWZ002349@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: > 1) Things that are mostly schematics. > > 2) Things with a large text component that I might want to try to OCR. > Questions: > > a) What resolution should I use for these two things? For OCR, it may depend on the OCR software, but for almost everything I have found that 300 dpi and gray-scale (8 bits per pixel) JPEG works best. Grayscale is definitely better than black-and-white (1 bit per pixel) for reproduction that is indistinguishable from the original, but for some OCR software, black-and-white line art (1 bit per pixel) may work better. From pspan at amerytel.net Thu Sep 22 08:23:53 2005 From: pspan at amerytel.net (Phil Spanner) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 08:23:53 -0500 Subject: DEC dispersal Message-ID: <000f01c5bf78$e0a33420$0a01a8c0@airstreamcomm.net> Hello all, Well, I have written a couple of times about the company next door getting rid of their DEC equipment and prints. The carnage has begun. I picked up an interesting looking DEC user guide for the MRV-11D prom module. If any one would like it (I don't have a scanner), let me know. If there are any specific boards anyone is looking for send me a private email. The folks next door did have someone stop by and make an offer on the entire lot, offer was not accepted. The only offer that was considered, was on the DEC microfiche. I also saved a few sets of IC Masters dates from the 80's and 90's. Watching the dumpster get filled is depressing.....:>( Phil From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Sep 22 08:36:24 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 06:36:24 -0700 Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic Message-ID: <200509220636240100.12167E5F@192.168.42.129> Hi, gang, Got a couple of 3M telecom test sets (965TD's) that need some cosmetic help. No, they're not off-topic. First, they both use an embedded DOS-based computer, and second they're both over ten years old. Anyway... The outer housing is made of (I think) high-density polyethylene, the same stuff that the outer jacket of telephone cables is made from, molded in bright glossy yellow. At least it was bright and glossy when new. As one might imagine would happen with field craft instruments, these have been dinged and marred pretty badly. My question is: What's the best way to restore them? I've tried simple plastic cleaner/polish, and it helped a bit, but the scarring is still there. What I'd like to do, ideally, is take enough of the outer layer off to smooth things down, and then polish it up so that they look new. With that in mind: Anyone know a good way to recondition HDPE? Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From James at jdfogg.com Thu Sep 22 08:39:33 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:39:33 -0400 Subject: DEC dispersal Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E579D@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Well, I have written a couple of times about the company next > door getting rid of their DEC equipment and prints. The > carnage has begun. Where is this? From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Sep 22 09:42:43 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:42:43 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <4331E633.9050505@bellsouth.net> References: <3.0.6.16.20050921113149.3317a39e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200509210718390296.04F53DC8@smtp.comcast.net> <3.0.6.16.20050921113149.3317a39e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050922094243.331f16a2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:01 PM 9/21/05 -0400, Glen wrote: >Joe, I knew you were going to put in your 2 cents worth >on this subject sooner or later . . . ;-) Yeah, you know what I think of PP! > > > Months later E-bay pulled $800 from > > the seller's account for the transaction with no explaination. > >Solution: don't keep funds in your PayPal account. > >As a seller, I do a few dozen PayPal transaction each >month, mostly to buyers outside the USA. In fact, when >I get a large (over $200) order from my web site from >a first-time non-USA buyer who wants to use a credit card, >I will usually insist that they use PayPal instead (since I >have near-zero recourse if the buyer uses a hot credit >card). > >At the end of the day, I transfer all of my PayPal >receipts to my bank account, so PayPal can never >"seize" my funds. First, having to transfer funds out of your account every night is a PITA! Especially for someone that only uses PP occasionally. Second, how do you stop them from taking the funds out of a future payment? What are you going do if they do take the funds from a future payment, refuse to ship the merchandise to that buyer? For me it's a lot easier to refuse to take PP and insist on a money order, check or cash. Joe > >I've never had any problems with PayPal, (except that >their site is God-awful slow and their "send invoice" >procedure is clunky and time-consuming) and the >fees they charge are about the same as what I pay >my merchant processing company for charge card >transactions (about 3 percent). > >Just *my* two cents worth ;-) > >Glen >0/0 > >Joe R. wrote: >> At 09:23 AM 9/21/05 -0500, Gil wrote: >> >>>I used BidPay once for an international order. It was a big pain, IIRC. >>> >>>I have never sold, so have no personal observation there, but if you Google >>>about it you find all kinds of horror stories about PayPal >> >> >> Here are a couple. I strongly suggest that anyone that buys or sells >> over the net read them. >> >> >> >> >> locking an >> >>>account retroactively and freezing all the funds for 6 months because of a >>>single buyer complaint. >> >> >> I've got news for you, they will freeze payments even with NO complaints! >> A friend of mine's brother sold a laptop on E-bay for $800. He recieved >> payment via PP and shipped the laptop. The buyer confirmed that he recieved >> it and that he was satisfied with it. Months later E-bay pulled $800 from >> the seller's account for the transaction with no explaination. The seller >> checked with the buyer and the buyer was still satisfied with the >> transaction and said that he hadn't made any complaint to PP. He even wrote >> a letter to that affect to both PP and the seller but PP still refuses to >> return the sellers money or give any explaination of my they pulled it. The >> last time that I talked to my friend it had been going on for 8 months with >> no end in sight. >> >> A word to the wise; PP is not a bank and is therefore not regulated. >> They can do anything they want and you have NO recourse. >> >> I frequently sell stuff on E-bay and I have a LOT of people that want me >> to take PP but I absolutely refuse to!!!! I've used BidPay as a seller and >> had no problems with it. >> >> >>>Seemed pretty heavy handed. They deal from a >>>position of strength. You have to agree to their contract or not use their >>>service. >> >> >> >>>These might all stem from before they were bought by eBay. >> >> >> Do you REALLY expect them to be any better after the Ebay take over? >> E-bay has a long history of high handness and raising rates simply because >> they can. Ebay is a PRIVATE company and is answerable to no one so don't >> expect fairness from them. >> >> Joe >> >> >> > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 22 08:58:17 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:58:17 +0100 Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic In-Reply-To: <200509220636240100.12167E5F@192.168.42.129> References: <200509220636240100.12167E5F@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <4332B879.8040802@yahoo.co.uk> Bruce Lane wrote: > At least it was bright and glossy when new. As one might > imagine would happen with field craft instruments, these have > been dinged and marred pretty badly. Hmm, given that they were field units I'd probably be tempted to leave them as-is to be honest! Just a thought anyway... From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 22 10:16:30 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:16:30 -0400 Subject: Scanning References: <200509220614.j8M6EmA7097553@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200509221314.j8MDERWZ002349@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <17202.51918.682496.544200@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Barry" == Barry Watzman writes: Barry> Re: >> 1) Things that are mostly schematics. >> >> 2) Things with a large text component that I might want to try to >> OCR. Questions: >> >> a) What resolution should I use for these two things? Barry> For OCR, it may depend on the OCR software, but for almost Barry> everything I have found that 300 dpi and gray-scale (8 bits Barry> per pixel) JPEG works best. Grayscale is definitely better Barry> than black-and-white (1 bit per pixel) for reproduction that Barry> is indistinguishable from the original, but for some OCR Barry> software, black-and-white line art (1 bit per pixel) may work Barry> better. I agree with you that grayscale is going to work better with many OCR implementations (because it effectively provides anti-aliasing). But avoid JPEG like the plague. JPEG is designed ONLY for photographic images, and is ONLY fit to be used for those. It WILL butcher any image with "hard edged" content -- text or line graphics. You need TIFF or PNG (or even GIF) for that. Not only will that protect the quality of your scans, but it will also generally compress better (smaller output files) than JPEG. paul From allain at panix.com Thu Sep 22 12:06:38 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:06:38 -0400 Subject: DEC dispersal References: <000f01c5bf78$e0a33420$0a01a8c0@airstreamcomm.net> Message-ID: <02a201c5bf98$0c2f7c60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Watching the dumpster get filled is depressing.....:>( Not if you have time, access and an an empty hatchback. This is the filled-dumpster rescue network here... Just announce what you cannot take personally. John A. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Sep 22 12:58:30 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 19:58:30 +0200 Subject: Free : IBM 5291 Model 2 Display Station Maintenance Library Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050922195654.02e4a3c0@pop.xs4all.nl> Free for postage the manual : "IBM 5291 Model 2 Display Station Maintenance Library". Productnr is SY31-0667-1 Item is located in the Netherlands. Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Sep 22 13:26:47 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 20:26:47 +0200 Subject: Some more free manuals + some cheap ones Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050922200556.0316d698@pop.xs4all.nl> I found some more free stuff : - Dataproducts SPG8020-1/2 Impact Matrix Printer Owner's Manual - Digital Controls DCC 9000 SCSI Switch Owner's Manual - IBM 5291 Models 1 and 2 Display Station Operator's Guide - Quarterdeck manifest Also have some more manuals for sale for 1 euro a piece : - TRS-80 Micro Computer Technical Reference Handbook - Datapoint 8603/8605 Processor Product Specification and Hardware Reference Manual - Micom Micro800/2 Data Concentrator M822, M824, M828, M8212, M8216 User's Manual - HP RTE-A Primary System Software Installation Manual (still shrinkwrapped, loose pages, needs binder) - HP Manual Update RTE-A Driver Reference Manual, Update Number 4 - HP Manual Update RTE-A Utilities Manual, Update Number 3 - HP 2930 Series Printers Owner's Manual - Micro Mint DISK-80 Expansion Interface Owner's Manual and Assembly Instructions - Digital VMS System Manager's Manual VMS 5.2 ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Sep 22 13:50:36 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:50:36 -0700 Subject: Looking for HP 9895A 8" floppy drive information Message-ID: <1e1fc3e905092211501d885901@mail.gmail.com> I recently acquired an HP 9895A 8" floppy drive and was wondering if anyone has user, service, or programming manuals. If I pop off the front cover there is a numeric dial switch, maybe that is simply the HP-IB address. There are also a couple of test switches. I wonder what those do. Anyone know for sure whether or not it is natively supported by an HP Integral PC? I'll probably give that a quick try as soon as I have a chance. I'd also like to try hooking it up to my HP 1000 which has an 12821A interface card. This is supposed to be a supported boot device with the 12992H loader rom. I can look at the 12992H loader rom source and figure out how to read the first sector from the drive, but it would be nice to have complete programming information for the drive. Apparently the 9895A is an Amigo protocol drive, not a CS/80 drive. Does anyone have a generic Amigo protocol spec, or a 9895A specific HP-IB protocol spec? From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 22 14:47:37 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WTB: Tower case for IBM model 80, 60 or 65 (PS/2) Message-ID: <200509221947.MAA01573@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Another option on the auto transformer is to use the primary of a transformer that was designed to be configured for both voltages. You just ignore the output leads. The transformer in this case only needs to be rated for 1/2 the power that you are sending to the final device. It should be noted that in der Mouse's diagram, each transformer needs to be rated for 1/2 the power. Dwight >From: "der Mouse" > >> A crude method is to find three biggish AC power transformers all the >> same. Hook all three secondaries together in parallel, then use one >> of the primaries as the primary and hook the other two secondaries >> series-aiding to make the 220 volt 'secondary.' > >Just watch your phasing; get the leads swapped to one of the "other >two" transformers and you'll get (nominal) zero voltage instead of >double voltage. > >Indeed, you can do something autotransformerish with only two >transformers: > > ---------------------. >IN | > --------+------------|------------------------------- > | +----+ OUT > | | | +------------- > | | | | > |_()()()()()_| |_()()()()()_| > _==========_ _==========_ > | ()()()()() | | ()()()()() | > | | | | > +------------|----+ | > +-----------------+ > >Of course, the three-transformer version produces double voltage that's >isolated from the input, whereas the above doesn't. Also, you still >have to watch the phasing; get a winding's leads swapped and you get >zero voltage instead of doubled voltage. > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Sep 22 14:49:37 2005 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:49:37 -0400 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050922094243.331f16a2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050921113149.3317a39e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200509210718390296.04F53DC8@smtp.comcast.net> <3.0.6.16.20050921113149.3317a39e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20050922094243.331f16a2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43330AD1.9080300@bellsouth.net> Joe R. wrote: > First, having to transfer funds out of your account every night is a > PITA! Especially for someone that only uses PP occasionally. Well, as far as the occasional user is concerned, you're right. I just include it as part of my end-of-day stuff, like logging the day's take, etc., so it's no hassle for me. > Second, how do you stop them from taking the funds out > of a future payment? I expect -- though I may be wrong in this assumption -- that PayPal would contact me first regarding any "adjustments" they wanted to make to my account, which would allow me a little time to make a move to another service. JMHO Glen 0/0 From trestivo at concentric.net Thu Sep 22 12:51:15 2005 From: trestivo at concentric.net (thom restivo) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:51:15 -0400 Subject: orbis drive Message-ID: <00c801c5bf9e$3d839a20$6601a8c0@studio> Does anyone know where I can find one or two Orbis drives for 8" floppies? I believe it's the only drive that will read floppies created on an orbis drive. thom From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 22 13:52:29 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations Message-ID: <20050922185229.27672.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Sun 3/140 (saw one on ebay months ago, liked it). Also early Apollo, Tektronix, perhaps SGI, and other stuph. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Thu Sep 22 16:32:43 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <43330AD1.9080300@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <20050922213243.72993.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Glen Goodwin wrote: > I expect -- though I may be wrong in this assumption > -- > that PayPal would contact me first regarding any > "adjustments" > they wanted to make to my account, which would allow > me > a little time to make a move to another service. > think of it in the buyers perspective, how could paypal provide any protection to its buyers if it told a fraudulent seller in 12 hours we are going to transfer money back to the buyer, wouldn't work, doesn't make any sense Fraudulent sellers tend to only accept cleared personal checks, money orders, wired transfers for this reason __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From Tim at Rikers.org Thu Sep 22 16:40:48 2005 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:40:48 -0600 Subject: Looking for HP 9895A 8" floppy drive information In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e905092211501d885901@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e905092211501d885901@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <433324E0.5070109@Rikers.org> Can you post some pictures? I'm still trying to figure out what the origninal hp-2114 I first learned on used for storage. As best I recall there were 2 drives, and the dual drive unit fit inside a closed, locked, rack mount chassis that was about the same size as the 2114 itself. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Sep 22 16:47:04 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:47:04 -0700 Subject: Looking for HP 9895A 8" floppy drive information In-Reply-To: <433324E0.5070109@Rikers.org> References: <1e1fc3e905092211501d885901@mail.gmail.com> <433324E0.5070109@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e905092214471f083b25@mail.gmail.com> This isn't my picture, but looks exactly the same as the one I have. http://hpmuseum.net/image.php?file=436 http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=262 On 9/22/05, Tim Riker wrote: > Can you post some pictures? I'm still trying to figure out what the > origninal hp-2114 I first learned on used for storage. As best I recall > there were 2 drives, and the dual drive unit fit inside a closed, > locked, rack mount chassis that was about the same size as the 2114 itself. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 22 16:47:23 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:47:23 +0100 Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: <20050922185229.27672.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050922185229.27672.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4333266B.1030107@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > Sun 3/140 (saw one on ebay months ago, liked it). Also > early Apollo, Tektronix, perhaps SGI, and other stuph. Location is helpful (partiularly country) - old workstations tend to be heavy and shipping costs make things prohibitive (particularly overseas) A Sun's probably easiest to find intact - still lots around complete and working (exception being VME-based SPARC machines it seems), and the media's readily available. Apollos tend to be really thin on the ground (manuals and Domain OS media even more so). Tektronix systems still fetch real money. SGI system units are easy enough to find but the older ones use proprietary keyboards - most of which seem to be missing (Indy-era systems and newer work with a PC-compatible keyboard so no problem with those). Media can be tricky to get hold of. cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 22 16:56:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: orbis drive In-Reply-To: <00c801c5bf9e$3d839a20$6601a8c0@studio> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, thom restivo wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find one or two Orbis drives for 8" > floppies? I believe it's the only drive that will read floppies created > on an orbis drive. What in tarnations is an Orbis drive? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 22 17:14:40 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:14:40 -0700 Subject: 9895A Message-ID: Glen, I have the 12821 interface kit manual scanned, don't appear to have the 9895A scanned. If you can't turn it up anywhere else, I'll try to borrow a copy from Jeff Moffatt or Frank McConnell. The Amigo protocol is documented in Appendix A of http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/09134-90032-Aug-1983.pdf Tim, if the floppy you were using was in a 10 1/2" box, it was probably from a third party. Vertical mount drives were made by Sykes, DSD, AED, and others. From Tim at Rikers.org Thu Sep 22 17:19:51 2005 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:19:51 -0600 Subject: Looking for HP 9895A 8" floppy drive information In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e905092214471f083b25@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e905092211501d885901@mail.gmail.com> <433324E0.5070109@Rikers.org> <1e1fc3e905092214471f083b25@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43332E07.6070409@Rikers.org> Glen Slick wrote: > This isn't my picture, but looks exactly the same as the one I have. > > http://hpmuseum.net/image.php?file=436 > http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=262 Thanx. It's possible that the machine I worked on had the same drive units, but deffinately not that cabnet. As I recall the drives were vertical, side by side. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 22 17:26:23 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:26:23 -0700 Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations Message-ID: <7bf6436b4500fe28885c5f22640f7574@bitsavers.org> Apollos tend to be really thin on the ground (manuals and Domain OS media even more so). -- I'd still like to scan the material that Bob Shannon has, since, as you've noticed, DOMAIN docs were tossed when the machines were. Apollo hardware docs are unobtainium. I tried contacting the one person who was working on porting NetBSD to DN3xxx/4xxx, because he had done a LOT of reverse engr and boot prom disassembly for the machines, but got nowhere. It sounded like he lost interest in the whole thing, and didn't bother to save what he had done. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 22 17:33:19 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:33:19 -0700 Subject: orbis drive Message-ID: > What in tarnations is an Orbis drive? Single-sided 8" floppy. VERY early. made by Wangco. I have the product spec. Will put it on bitsavers in a little while. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Sep 22 17:38:35 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 23:38:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: <7bf6436b4500fe28885c5f22640f7574@bitsavers.org> References: <7bf6436b4500fe28885c5f22640f7574@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <51981.82.152.112.73.1127428715.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Apollos tend to be really thin on the ground (manuals and Domain OS > media even more so). As I'm sure Jules will attest to, Retrobeep at Bletchley Park now has a metric buttload of original Apollos that they're working to get a proper domainOS setup going on. Not much documentation, granted, but there's enough hardware to keep everyone happy :) More on this as it transpires. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From Tim at Rikers.org Thu Sep 22 17:47:16 2005 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:47:16 -0600 Subject: 9895A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43333474.7030503@Rikers.org> Al Kossow wrote: > Tim, if the floppy you were using was in a 10 1/2" box, it > was probably from a third party. Vertical mount drives were > made by Sykes, DSD, AED, and others. Sounds plausable. Any luck on finding the HP-2116A volume 2 manual? ;-) -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 22 18:21:13 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:21:13 -0700 Subject: 2116A manual Message-ID: > Any luck on finding the HP-2116A volume 2 manual? ;-) Sam Wood says he has one, and a core assembly. I've been asking him about it for months now. Bottom line is he wants a LOT of money for it and I have no interest in spending it on that. As you probably know by now, the 2116 wasn't designed by HP. The B was a redesign to make it manufacturable. Docs for the B and onwards are easy to find (I have probably 6 copies of the 2116B manuals) Because they had such a short life, and weren't particularly reliable there are almost no A's left. The one you turned up was the first one that still existed that I had heard about. From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Thu Sep 22 18:27:47 2005 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 18:27:47 -0500 Subject: HELP - pickup in San Diego? Message-ID: <000001c5bfcd$3e3ec870$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Would it be possible for anyone in San Diego to pick up a couple of smallish (dual 5 1/4 floppy, 5 1/4 MFM) HP drives for me at IMS Recycling in San Diego and either re-ship or bring to VCF 8.0? Liberal shipping and beer allowance provided. PLEASE REPLY DIRECT - I RECEIVE THE CLASSICCMP DIGEST AND MSGS LAG 2-3 DAYS Thanks - Jack jack.rubin-AT-ameritech.net From KParker at workcover.com Thu Sep 22 18:34:06 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:04:06 +0930 Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616230483D545@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Have you tried Armour All (that's what its called here) - its used for revitalising Vinyl and other plastic type stuff ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Lane Sent: Thursday, 22 September 2005 11:06 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic Hi, gang, Got a couple of 3M telecom test sets (965TD's) that need some cosmetic help. No, they're not off-topic. First, they both use an embedded DOS-based computer, and second they're both over ten years old. Anyway... The outer housing is made of (I think) high-density polyethylene, the same stuff that the outer jacket of telephone cables is made from, molded in bright glossy yellow. At least it was bright and glossy when new. As one might imagine would happen with field craft instruments, these have been dinged and marred pretty badly. My question is: What's the best way to restore them? I've tried simple plastic cleaner/polish, and it helped a bit, but the scarring is still there. What I'd like to do, ideally, is take enough of the outer layer off to smooth things down, and then polish it up so that they look new. With that in mind: Anyone know a good way to recondition HDPE? Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 22 16:45:16 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:45:16 -0700 Subject: State of the art In-Reply-To: <4332B879.8040802@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200509220636240100.12167E5F@192.168.42.129> <4332B879.8040802@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200509221445160125.011F1B33@10.0.0.252> I was catching up on my reading and came across an interesting article in the September 2005 IEEE Computer Society "Computer" magazine. The gist of the particular article was that the graphics processors on many high-end PC video cards are overlooked for applications requiring heavy number-crunching. What caught my eye was the chart that illustrated that the Nvidia G70 graphics processor now performs at about 170 GFlops! (A dual-core Pentium 4 running at 3 GHz, by contrast, will do about 20 GFlops). Granted, this is 32-bit vector floating point arithmetic, but the raw numbers are pretty stunning. It simply doesn't seem that long ago that Neil Lincoln was telling me how wonderful his liquid nitrogen-cooled high-density CMOS vector supercomputer was going to be in that it would be the first to break the 10 Gflop mark. (This was the ill-fated ETA Systems one and only ETA-10 supercomputer). Now we have 170 GFlops on the desktop to draw pictures! Times certainly do change. Does anyone know what became of very few ETA-10's that were built? Museum or landfill? Cheers, Chuck From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Sep 22 19:04:44 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 19:04:44 -0500 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050922094243.331f16a2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050921113149.3317a39e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200509210718390296.04F53DC8@smtp.comcast.net> <3.0.6.16.20050921113149.3317a39e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20050922094243.331f16a2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050922190444.000049f5.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 09:42:43 "Joe R." wrote: > At 07:01 PM 9/21/05 -0400, Glen wrote: > >Joe, I knew you were going to put in your 2 cents worth > >on this subject sooner or later . . . ;-) > > Yeah, you know what I think of PP! > > > > > Months later E-bay pulled $800 from > > > the seller's account for the transaction with no explaination. > > >Solution: don't keep funds in your PayPal account. > > >As a seller, I do a few dozen PayPal transaction each > >month, mostly to buyers outside the USA. In fact, when > >I get a large (over $200) order from my web site from > >a first-time non-USA buyer who wants to use a credit card, > >I will usually insist that they use PayPal instead (since I > >have near-zero recourse if the buyer uses a hot credit > >card). > > >At the end of the day, I transfer all of my PayPal > >receipts to my bank account, so PayPal can never > >"seize" my funds. > > First, having to transfer funds out of your account every night is a > PITA! Especially for someone that only uses PP occasionally. Second, > how do you stop them from taking the funds out of a future payment? > What are you going do if they do take the funds from a future payment, > refuse to ship the merchandise to that buyer? For me it's a lot easier > to refuse to take PP and insist on a money order, check or cash. > > Joe > You can get a 'PayPal Visa Debit' card and yank the money right out at an ATM. ATM fees and what-not apply of course. 'Tether' the PayPal account to yourself only with a 'throwaway' checking account that you keep a low balance in, to be certain. My direct experience with PayPal has been (I no longer do any selling, but was selling a LOT on eBay up to about a year ago) with my PayPal Debit card, auction buyers would pay the price and shipping amount, and I could use the PayPal debit card to pay the shipping, then pull the cash out by the ATM method (or buy gas for the car with it). But a lot of other people have 'bad stories' that they hear, have experienced, etc. with PayPal. I just haven't suffered personally. From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Sep 22 19:44:24 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 20:44:24 -0400 Subject: Cleaning up battery leakage Message-ID: <20050923004423.EXCV6137.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> This summer, I received a box full of parts containing a Grid Compass 1101 which I was told was "beyond repair due to a battery leak". I've been looking it over, and I'm not so sure -- a battery definately leaked over the section of the board containing the bubble memory sockets. however the board actually does not look that badly damaged - the coating seems to have mostly protected it - there is visible corrosion at solder joints, however again - not that bad - most of them just have a rough texture. The board however is quite covered in some areas with a white substance which obviously came from the battery and "dried up". It is quite firmly glued to the board, and appears to be slightly conductive. I've carefully scraped away a small section, and as noted above, the board underneath looks to be in not-that-bad shape ... however mechanical removal would be very tedious the the risk of damaging something high. I don't know what type of battery it was, because it's long gone, and I've not seen the inside of this particular model before... Anyone got any suggestions on ways to clean this up - It's a nice and somewhat historic machine, which I would love to salvage if at all possible. (Cool little bubble memory modules) Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From tosteve at yahoo.com Thu Sep 22 20:05:31 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 18:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cleaning up battery leakage In-Reply-To: <20050923004423.EXCV6137.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20050923010531.5632.qmail@web34113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Vinegar with an acid-brush always works for me. Afterwards, IPA (isopropyl alcohol) cleans away the residue. Steve. --- Dave Dunfield wrote: > This summer, I received a box full of parts > containing a Grid Compass 1101 > which I was told was "beyond repair due to a battery > leak". > > I've been looking it over, and I'm not so sure -- a > battery definately > leaked over the section of the board containing the > bubble memory sockets. > however the board actually does not look that badly > damaged - the coating > seems to have mostly protected it - there is visible > corrosion at solder > joints, however again - not that bad - most of them > just have a rough > texture. > > The board however is quite covered in some areas > with a white substance > which obviously came from the battery and "dried > up". It is quite firmly > glued to the board, and appears to be slightly > conductive. I've carefully > scraped away a small section, and as noted above, > the board underneath > looks to be in not-that-bad shape ... however > mechanical removal would be > very tedious the the risk of damaging something > high. > > I don't know what type of battery it was, because > it's long gone, and I've > not seen the inside of this particular model > before... > > Anyone got any suggestions on ways to clean this up > - It's a nice and > somewhat historic machine, which I would love to > salvage if at all possible. > > (Cool little bubble memory modules) > > Regards, > Dave > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & > tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing > equipment: > > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Thu Sep 22 20:06:16 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 18:06:16 -0700 Subject: Elephant Memory Systems tribute page Message-ID: John C. Ellingboe wrote: I never had a problem with all the elephant disk that I used back then but the absolute worst that I ever saw was a batch of CDC 5.25" disk that maybe half of them were really useable. I would take anyones noname disks over them any day. This brings back memories... I worked at CDC (OK City) when they were making floppies. The head of the division was Thomas Kamp, one of the founders of CDC. He had a CDC field engineer come out and install a couple of CDC drives in his system. This poor kid didn't know who his customer was and just acted normal. When it came time to run a diagnostic, the kid removed the CDC diskettes and used a Verbatim. Kamp asked him why, and he answered (honestly) that the CDC media didn't work on CDC drives. In fact, he said, nobody can read CDC media. A few days later, we had guests from Headquarters who went over the story in great detail. They verifed that CDC drives really couldn't read CDC media. And proceeded to give one of the nastiest public ass chewings I've everbeen witness to. Not long after that, CDC media was made by 3M and branded. Billy From john at guntersville.net Thu Sep 22 20:16:44 2005 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 20:16:44 -0500 Subject: Elephant Memory Systems tribute page References: Message-ID: <4333577C.F7D7F1BF@guntersville.net> Billy Pettit wrote: > > John C. Ellingboe wrote: > > I never had a problem with all the elephant disk that I used > back then but the absolute worst that I ever saw was a batch of > CDC 5.25" disk that maybe half of them were really useable. I > would take anyones noname disks over them any day. > > This brings back memories... I worked at CDC (OK City) when they were > making floppies. The head of the division was Thomas Kamp, one of the > founders of CDC. He had a CDC field engineer come out and install a couple > of CDC drives in his system. This poor kid didn't know who his customer was > and just acted normal. When it came time to run a diagnostic, the kid > removed the CDC diskettes and used a Verbatim. Kamp asked him why, and he > answered (honestly) that the CDC media didn't work on CDC drives. In fact, > he said, nobody can read CDC media. > > A few days later, we had guests from Headquarters who went over the story in > great detail. They verifed that CDC drives really couldn't read CDC media. > And proceeded to give one of the nastiest public ass chewings I've everbeen > witness to. Not long after that, CDC media was made by 3M and branded. > > Billy The Huntsville Computer Club must have gotten them before 3M started to make them them. A couple of the members didn't want to take a chance on any off brand disk so that is what we ended up with as a major brand. From Tim at Rikers.org Thu Sep 22 20:46:17 2005 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 19:46:17 -0600 Subject: 2116A manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43335E69.7090002@Rikers.org> I think Bob Shannon said he has at least one copy. He has not gotten around to looking for it as far as I know. He also says he has a 2116A and a 2116C. He did not say if they were operational. I'd love to get an AVI of one with its lights a blinken. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Sep 22 20:55:17 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 21:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: State of the art In-Reply-To: <200509221445160125.011F1B33@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: > It simply doesn't seem that long ago that Neil Lincoln was telling me > how wonderful his liquid nitrogen-cooled high-density CMOS vector > supercomputer was going to be in that it would be the first to break > the 10 Gflop mark. (This was the ill-fated ETA Systems one and only > ETA-10 supercomputer). You have just made a classic big iron apples to oranges comparison. > Times certainly do change. Does anyone know what became of very few > ETA-10's that were built? Museum or landfill? The air cooled "Pipers" were the most common, with maybe a few dozen (?) made. One ended up at a high school. I knew of another at a school that was "improperly decommisioned" and stuffed in a back room to hide the evidence. I do not know what happened to either one. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 22 22:12:15 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 04:12:15 +0100 Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: <7bf6436b4500fe28885c5f22640f7574@bitsavers.org> References: <7bf6436b4500fe28885c5f22640f7574@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4333728F.9050003@yahoo.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > > > Apollos tend to be really thin on the ground (manuals and Domain OS > media even more so). > > -- > > I'd still like to scan the material that Bob Shannon has, since, as > you've noticed, DOMAIN docs were tossed when the machines were. yep, it'd be nice if possible - we've got a few docs for our machines, but not that many :( > I tried contacting the one person who was working on porting NetBSD > to DN3xxx/4xxx, because he had done a LOT of reverse engr and boot > prom disassembly for the machines, but got nowhere. It sounded like > he lost interest in the whole thing, and didn't bother to save what > he had done. Rats. Maybe I'll give that a shot too when I get back to the UK - just in case anything was saved; maybe if a few people show interest they'll double check that they don't still have anything! cheers J. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 23 00:25:50 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:25:50 -0700 Subject: 9895A vs 7902A ? Message-ID: I have the svc docs for the 7902A, which describe the Amigo protocol in a fair amount of detail. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/disc/07902-90060_7902svc_May79.pdf This was the drive used in the HP300 (Amigo) Was the 9895A a repackaging of the 7902A for the 1000 series? Does the 9895A still use HP's M2FM encoding format? There isn't really a picture of the 7902A in the manual. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 22 20:04:53 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 18:04:53 -0700 Subject: More stuff out of the garage In-Reply-To: <000f01c5bf78$e0a33420$0a01a8c0@airstreamcomm.net> References: <000f01c5bf78$e0a33420$0a01a8c0@airstreamcomm.net> Message-ID: <200509221804530725.01D5DBBD@10.0.0.252> Gang - I've been going through storage and find that I have two Durango F-85 systems. I think I'll keep one, but the other one's up for grabs. This thing dates to about 1979, is in operating condition (and I think I even have software for it). Basically an 8085-5 CPU with 64K of DRAM, 2 980K (100 tpi, GCR) floppies, an HPIB interface, integrated multipass printer (takes HP ribbons) and 80x25/64/16 9" video display. Without popping the top, I can't remember if this one also has a 6-port async board and the extra 128K of bankswitched memory or not. All of this is in a single desktop box that would remind you of an overgrown typewriter. Along with this is an external 40MB hard disk drive (Shugart SA-400) on an HPIB bus in a box roughly the size of a three-suit suitcase. At last check (about 2 years ago), this thing also worked just fine. These were quite advanced for their time and were usually used to run the suite of MCBA small business applications (AP/AR, GL and Payroll). The operating system and multitasking BASIC were proprietary to Durango and included an integrated ISAM file system. I seem to recall that the base unit sold for over $10,000 and the hard drive for over $5,000 in 1979 dollars, so these were definitely a high-end serious business solution. Very solidly built. There are two buses--both proprietary that are vaguely reminiscent of Multibus, but by no means identical. Here's the catch--you'll have to pick these up in Eugene, OR. The disk drive alone must weight 150 lbs and the CPU box comes in at about 70 lbs. Let me know if anyone's interested--I'm not certain, but I think this is a comparatively rare bird. Cheers, Chuck From sami.nikkinen at gmail.com Thu Sep 22 21:23:16 2005 From: sami.nikkinen at gmail.com (Sami Nikkinen) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 05:23:16 +0300 Subject: commdore 1081 Message-ID: <43336714.3080109@gmail.com> Hej! You have written December 2000 [link: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2000-December/161966.html] something about pinouts (data) of cbm (commodore)1081. Any idea where to get it or schematics? Need'em. Cheers, Sami [sami.nikkinen at haminetti.net] From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 23 01:08:12 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 23:08:12 -0700 Subject: 9895A vs 7902A ? Message-ID: just found an answer to the differences. there is a partial 7902/9895 manual hp_floppydisk_7209xx.pdf on dyndns.org that has the history -- Introduction This service manual contains service information for the 7902A, 9895K and the 7902C flexible disc drives and the controller boards used on the HP 250, 300, 1000, and 3000 series 30 and 33 systems. The following brief history describes the changes that have taken place on the disc drives and controller boards and the reasons for the changes. The first production model 7902A flexible disc drives were installed in the HP 250, 300 and 3000 systems. The 7902A drives (P/N 07902-68811) designed for use in the HP 250 and the 7902A drives (P/N 07902-60038/07902-60023) for use in the 300/3000 were non- interchangeable. For this reason a common drive (P/N 07902-67914) was developed as a replacement. Refer to service notes HP 250-01 and 7902A-01 for instructions if one of the old drives is discovered in the field. In the past, the drive mechanisms for the 7902A had been manufactured by Shugart and utilized a tri-compliant head design. As of September, 1980, this drive was replaced with one using a bi-compliant head design used on the 7902C. The drive used on the 9895K is built by CDC and utilizes a tri-compliant head design. These drives are not interchangeable between systems because of differences in drive boards used on the various systems. The drive boards used on the HP 300/3000 systems are designed and built by HP and utilize control signals which are non-industry standard. The drive boards used on the HP 250 systems are designed and built by both Shugart and CDC and utilize industry standard control signals. The controller board (P/N 45000-66510) used on the old HP 250 systems, and the control- ler board (P/N 07902-60024) used on the old HP 300/1000/3000 systems, were also non- interchangeable and they both utilized in MC2 micro CPU. A new controller board (P/N 07902-6652(1) was designed as a replacement for the 45000-66510 board. If one should fail in the field, refer to service note 07902A-5A for instructions. The controller board used on the old HP 300/1000/3000 systems (P/N 07902-60024) is interchangeable with the new controller board (P/N 07902-66501) designed for use with the 7902C. The new HP 3000 systems no longer use the 7902 disc drives. The 9895A flexible disc drives will be used in place of the 7902. From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Fri Sep 23 07:58:04 2005 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 08:58:04 -0400 Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616230483D545@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616230483D545@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <322C3B0D-9B38-4B48-8DF8-0A7654FFEEC8@mind-to-mind.com> On Sep 22, 2005, at 7:34 PM, Parker, Kevin wrote: > Have you tried Armour All (that's what its called here) - its used > for > revitalising Vinyl and other plastic type stuff FWIW. I used to use Armour All, but I found that for some things (Vinyl on seats in particular), Armour All + Sun = Dried and Cracked. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 23 09:05:31 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:05:31 Subject: Cleaning up battery leakage In-Reply-To: <20050923004423.EXCV6137.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050923090531.49b74570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:44 PM 9/22/05 -0400, you wrote: > >Anyone got any suggestions on ways to clean this up - Lime Away. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 23 09:14:55 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:14:55 Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: <20050922185229.27672.qmail@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050923091455.49b79bb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> OK, what is "stuph"? This is the second message that I've seen from you using that term. Joe At 11:52 AM 9/22/05 -0700, you wrote: >Sun 3/140 (saw one on ebay months ago, liked it). Also >early Apollo, Tektronix, perhaps SGI, and other stuph. > > > >__________________________________ >Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 >http://mail.yahoo.com > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 23 09:12:34 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:12:34 Subject: Looking for HP 9895A 8" floppy drive information In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e905092211501d885901@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050923091234.49d732b4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:50 AM 9/22/05 -0700, you wrote: >I recently acquired an HP 9895A 8" floppy drive and was wondering if >anyone has user, service, or programming manuals. > >If I pop off the front cover there is a numeric dial switch, maybe >that is simply the HP-IB address. There are also a couple of test >switches. I wonder what those do. > >Anyone know for sure whether or not it is natively supported by an HP >Integral PC? I don't know for sure but I'd say Yes. The HP 9895s were replaced by the HP 9121 and I know the IPC will support the 9121. I'll probably give that a quick try as soon as I have a >chance. > >I'd also like to try hooking it up to my HP 1000 which has an 12821A >interface card. This is supposed to be a supported boot device with >the 12992H loader rom. > >I can look at the 12992H loader rom source and figure out how to read >the first sector from the drive, but it would be nice to have complete >programming information for the drive. Apparently the 9895A is an >Amigo protocol drive, not a CS/80 drive. Does anyone have a generic >Amigo protocol spec, or a 9895A specific HP-IB protocol spec? The Amigo protocall is posted on the net is several places including Bitsavers IIRC. Joe > > From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 23 08:26:16 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 06:26:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050923091455.49b79bb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at "Sep 23, 5 09:14:55 am" Message-ID: <200509231326.GAA33438@floodgap.com> > OK, what is "stuph"? This is the second message that I've seen from you > using that term. Say it out loud. :) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Microsoft Windows is the IBM 3270 of the 21st century. --------------------- From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Sep 23 08:28:31 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:28:31 -0400 (edt) Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050923091455.49b79bb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Sep 23, 05 09:14:55 am Message-ID: <200509231328.JAA07510@wordstock.com> And thusly Joe R. spake: > > OK, what is "stuph"? This is the second message that I've seen from you > using that term. > > Joe > stuph is phat. But only iph its vintage computing stuph. Yo Yo Yo!, Bryan From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 23 08:30:58 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:30:58 -0400 Subject: State of the art References: <200509220636240100.12167E5F@192.168.42.129> <4332B879.8040802@yahoo.co.uk> <200509221445160125.011F1B33@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <17204.914.506893.698958@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> I was catching up on my reading and came across an interesting Chuck> article in the September 2005 IEEE Computer Society "Computer" Chuck> magazine. The gist of the particular article was that the Chuck> graphics processors on many high-end PC video cards are Chuck> overlooked for applications requiring heavy number-crunching. Chuck> What caught my eye was the chart that illustrated that the Chuck> Nvidia G70 graphics processor now performs at about 170 Chuck> GFlops! (A dual-core Pentium 4 running at 3 GHz, by contrast, Chuck> will do about 20 GFlops). 20 GFlops with a 3 GHz processor? How can that be -- that would require 3 FP functional units per core, each issuing one instruction per clock cycle. Did you mean 2 GFlops? Chuck> Granted, this is 32-bit vector floating point arithmetic, but Chuck> the raw numbers are pretty stunning. Sure is. There may be as many as three processors tucked away in your PC that are more powerful (though more narrowly focused) than the main processor. The graphics engine is one -- the other two are the digital signal processing engines in the disk read channel and (if you have one) the Gigabit Ethernet interface. There's a group somewhere (can't remember the name or URL) working on developing parallel processing algorithms that run on your graphics card -- essentially treating it as a vector coprocessor for your PC. paul From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Sep 23 08:40:55 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:40:55 +0200 Subject: State of the art Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1EC0@gd-mail03.oce.nl> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning > Sent: vrijdag 23 september 2005 15:31 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: State of the art > > >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: > > Chuck> I was catching up on my reading and came across an > interesting Chuck> article in the September 2005 IEEE > Computer Society "Computer" > Chuck> magazine. The gist of the particular article was > that the Chuck> graphics processors on many high-end PC > video cards are Chuck> overlooked for applications requiring > heavy number-crunching. > Chuck> What caught my eye was the chart that illustrated > that the Chuck> Nvidia G70 graphics processor now performs > at about 170 Chuck> GFlops! (A dual-core Pentium 4 running > at 3 GHz, by contrast, Chuck> will do about 20 GFlops). > > 20 GFlops with a 3 GHz processor? How can that be -- that > would require 3 FP functional units per core, each issuing > one instruction per clock cycle. Did you mean 2 GFlops? > > Chuck> Granted, this is 32-bit vector floating point > arithmetic, but Chuck> the raw numbers are pretty stunning. > > Sure is. > > There may be as many as three processors tucked away in your > PC that are more powerful (though more narrowly focused) than > the main processor. The graphics engine is one -- the other > two are the digital signal processing engines in the disk > read channel and (if you have one) the Gigabit Ethernet interface. > > There's a group somewhere (can't remember the name or URL) > working on developing parallel processing algorithms that run > on your graphics card -- essentially treating it as a vector > coprocessor for your PC. > > paul ... and then there is a nice DSP on the modern soundcards. HAM radio amateurs use the soundcard DSP to decode those chirpy signals you can hear on short wave. Even signals burried in "noise" produce text on your screen. A good example is MixW, but there are several! - Henk, PA8PDP. From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 23 08:47:55 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:47:55 -0400 Subject: Cleaning up battery leakage References: <20050923004423.EXCV6137.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <20050923010531.5632.qmail@web34113.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <17204.1931.69652.119365@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "steven" == steven stengel writes: steven> Vinegar with an acid-brush always works for me. Afterwards, steven> IPA (isopropyl alcohol) cleans away the residue. Vinegar is good if the electrolyte is alkaline. If memory serves, that''s true for NiCd batteries, which is the most likely type in that old computer. (If you want to make sure, scrape off a bit, dissolve in water, and test with a pH test kit from a swimming pool supply store, or a pH meter if you have one.) In between the vinegar and the isopropyl alcohol I'd use water (distilled water would be optimal) to rinse away any remaining acid more effectively than the alcohol would. Be sure to use 90% isopropyl or better, not 70% "rubbing alcohol". paul From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 23 09:11:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 07:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Freeman PC Museum Message-ID: Why are people doing this? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8220987149 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 23 09:17:12 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:17:12 -0400 Subject: State of the art References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1EC0@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <17204.3688.478172.777959@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Henk" == Henk Gooijen writes: Henk> ... and then there is a nice DSP on the modern soundcards. Henk> HAM radio amateurs use the soundcard DSP to decode those chirpy Henk> signals you can hear on short wave. Even signals burried in Henk> "noise" produce text on your screen. A good example is MixW, Henk> but there are several! Sure, but the sound card DSP tends to be a pretty low powered DSP. I think the typical signal processing in GigE or disk read channel applications starts with analog to digital conversion at close to a gigasample per second, and then doing DSP on the resulting data stream. Sound card DSPs are designed for data rates in the few dozen k samples per second. paul From vrs at msn.com Fri Sep 23 09:44:37 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 07:44:37 -0700 Subject: Freeman PC Museum References: Message-ID: > Why are people doing this? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8220987149 Maybe they forgot to set the $50,000 reserve? Maybe they just don't know how to run an ePay auction. Vince From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Sep 23 09:56:11 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:56:11 -0400 Subject: Freeman PC Museum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4334178B.3080407@gmail.com> vrs wrote: >>Why are people doing this? >> >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8220987149 > > > Maybe they forgot to set the $50,000 reserve? Maybe they just don't know > how > to run an ePay auction. It's neither. Those people aren't the owners of the Freeman PC Museum and are attempting to perpetrate fraud, which is why Sellam was asking, "Why are people doing this?" Peace... Sridhar From vrs at msn.com Fri Sep 23 10:07:40 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 08:07:40 -0700 Subject: Freeman PC Museum References: <4334178B.3080407@gmail.com> Message-ID: > >>Why are people doing this? > >> > >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8220987149 > > > > > > Maybe they forgot to set the $50,000 reserve? Maybe they just don't know > > how > > to run an ePay auction. > > It's neither. Those people aren't the owners of the Freeman PC Museum > and are attempting to perpetrate fraud, which is why Sellam was asking, > "Why are people doing this?" Then I'd expect them to be NARU, instead of having voluntarily canceled their own auction. (NARU: "not a registered user", after eBay boots them for fraud.) I'd agree that pretending to be the Freeman PC Museum, putting up an auction, then canceling it, is really dumb. (All the "asking for trouble", with none of the possible upside.) Vince From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Sep 23 10:19:34 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:19:34 -0400 Subject: Freeman PC Museum References: <4334178B.3080407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008201c5c052$34896d00$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "vrs" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 11:07 AM Subject: Re: Freeman PC Museum > > >>Why are people doing this? > > >> > > >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8220987149 > > > > > > > > > Maybe they forgot to set the $50,000 reserve? Maybe they just don't > know > > > how > > > to run an ePay auction. > > > > It's neither. Those people aren't the owners of the Freeman PC Museum > > and are attempting to perpetrate fraud, which is why Sellam was asking, > > "Why are people doing this?" > > Then I'd expect them to be NARU, instead of having voluntarily canceled > their > own auction. > > (NARU: "not a registered user", after eBay boots them for fraud.) > > I'd agree that pretending to be the Freeman PC Museum, putting up an > auction, > then canceling it, is really dumb. (All the "asking for trouble", with none > of the possible upside.) > > Vince > I was thinking the guy wanted to buy the rarer items (in the real Freeman auction) and dump the rest here in the US to avoid having to deal with the whole lot. After looking at both lists briefly they appear to be the same (so much for that theory). From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 23 11:14:46 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:14:46 Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: <200509231328.JAA07510@wordstock.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050923091455.49b79bb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050923111446.331f7bc2@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:28 AM 9/23/05 -0400, you wrote: >And thusly Joe R. spake: >> >> OK, what is "stuph"? This is the second message that I've seen from you >> using that term. >> >> Joe >> > >stuph is phat. But only iph its vintage computing stuph. > >Yo Yo Yo!, > >Bryan That sounds like some of the "tech support" people that I deal with! Joe From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Sep 23 10:22:59 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:22:59 -0400 Subject: Freeman PC Museum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43341DD3.9050601@atarimuseum.com> Well, Perhaps the Freeman Museum should post a big flashing notice on the front page of the website: The Collection is NOT for sale, any auctions or for sale notices are FRAUD, report them immediately. That should help curb this bullsh*t. Curt Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Why are people doing this? > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8220987149 > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.5/110 - Release Date: 9/22/2005 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 23 11:28:45 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:28:45 Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: <200509231326.GAA33438@floodgap.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050923091455.49b79bb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050923112845.331f3e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:26 AM 9/23/05 -0700, Cameron wrote: >> OK, what is "stuph"? This is the second message that I've seen from you >> using that term. > >Say it out loud. :) I know what it sounds like. I was trying to be tackful but I guess I'll just go ahead and say what I was thinking. It makes the original poster look lazy/immature/ignorant or possible all three. It's not just his repeated use of the (non)word "stuph" but also his grammer, lack of punctuation and capitalization as well as other distorted spellings. Joe From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 23 10:33:07 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 08:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050923112845.331f3e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at "Sep 23, 5 11:28:45 am" Message-ID: <200509231533.IAA31522@floodgap.com> > > > OK, what is "stuph"? This is the second message that I've seen from you > > > using that term. > > Say it out loud. :) > > I know what it sounds like. I was trying to be tackful but I guess I'll > just go ahead and say what I was thinking. It makes the original poster > look lazy/immature/ignorant or possible all three. It's not just his > repeated use of the (non)word "stuph" but also his grammer, lack of > punctuation and capitalization as well as other distorted spellings. Maybe he thinks it's phat? Okay, I'll stop. ;) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Space is limited/In a haiku so it's hard/To finish what you - Tristan Miller From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 23 11:29:04 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 12:29:04 -0400 Subject: State of the art Message-ID: <0INA008EE327QXF0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: State of the art > From: Paul Koning > Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:17:12 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>>>>> "Henk" == Henk Gooijen writes: > > Henk> ... and then there is a nice DSP on the modern soundcards. > Henk> HAM radio amateurs use the soundcard DSP to decode those chirpy > Henk> signals you can hear on short wave. Even signals burried in > Henk> "noise" produce text on your screen. A good example is MixW, > Henk> but there are several! > >Sure, but the sound card DSP tends to be a pretty low powered DSP. > >I think the typical signal processing in GigE or disk read channel >applications starts with analog to digital conversion at close to a >gigasample per second, and then doing DSP on the resulting data >stream. Sound card DSPs are designed for data rates in the few dozen >k samples per second. > > paul Actually the sound card modes like WJST and PSK31 only need the sound card to aquire the signal at audio baseband then the CPU does the heavy lifting. There is also software defined radio, all modes (AM/FM/SSB/CW) where the CPU after aquiring quadrature baseband does the decode work, the RF portion of a reciever can be simple to the extreme but provide prformance and features at the upper end. Allison KB1GMX From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Sep 23 12:15:08 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:15:08 -0400 Subject: Pay-Pal (was: Don't use "BidPay"!!!!) In-Reply-To: <200509231702.j8NH2BXk014156@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200509231715.j8NHF7HI021969@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Taking money out of your Pay-Pal account, and not having a balance, will not in any way stop Pay-Pal if they decide to "take" money from your account. In order to have a Pay-Pal account, you must give Pay-Pal the right to take money either from your credit card or your bank account (and usually you are pressured to make both available). If there is a "chargeback", this gives them the legal right -- enforceable in court if necessary -- to take that money from you via either the credit card or the bank account, even if it's months later and you no longer have a Pay-Pal balance. And, if the credit card and checking accounts in question are closed, to collect it in the same manner as any other alleged debt through a legal action. That said, I have had problems with Pay-Pal transactions, and so have people who I know (one whose entire account was "stolen" to the tune of thousands of dollars), and, in the end, after some hassle and some time, it was all resolved "satisfactorily". From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 23 12:43:51 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:43:51 -0700 Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050923112845.331f3e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050923091455.49b79bb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20050923112845.331f3e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: At 11:28 AM -0700 9/23/05, Joe R. wrote: >At 06:26 AM 9/23/05 -0700, Cameron wrote: >>> OK, what is "stuph"? This is the second message that I've seen from you >>> using that term. >> >>Say it out loud. :) > > I know what it sounds like. I was trying to be tackful but I guess I'll >just go ahead and say what I was thinking. It makes the original poster >look lazy/immature/ignorant or possible all three. It's not just his >repeated use of the (non)word "stuph" but also his grammer, lack of >punctuation and capitalization as well as other distorted spellings. > > Joe I think I'm going to have to agree with Joe on this, and my spelling is probably notorious! At least I attempt to use proper spelling, grammar, and punctuation. I find email from those that don't bother, or worse, purposefully mangle it, to be rather painful to read. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 23 12:58:07 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:58:07 -0400 Subject: Pay-Pal (was: Don't use "BidPay"!!!!) In-Reply-To: <200509231715.j8NHF7HI021969@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200509231702.j8NH2BXk014156@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200509231715.j8NHF7HI021969@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: On 9/23/05, Barry Watzman wrote: > > Taking money out of your Pay-Pal account, and not having a balance, will not > in any way stop Pay-Pal if they decide to "take" money from your account. Right, but the advantage of keeping a PayPal-only account is that you don't have your _main_ account frozen during a dispute. Mortgage companies don't want to hear that you can't pay them because your account is entangled. I use PayPal and have never had a problem, but I don't sell with it. I buy. If I ever get into selling, I'm expecting to open a small-business account just for PayPal transactions. It's just another business expense. -ethan From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Sep 23 14:20:40 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:20:40 -0400 Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations References: <3.0.6.16.20050923091455.49b79bb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20050923112845.331f3e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <17204.21896.731868.484375@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: Zane> I think I'm going to have to agree with Joe on this, and my Zane> spelling is probably notorious! At least I attempt to use Zane> proper spelling, grammar, and punctuation. I find email from Zane> those that don't bother, or worse, purposefully mangle it, to Zane> be rather painful to read. I agree. So if someone writes like a teenager, treat their mail as from a teenager. No problem. paul From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Sep 23 14:59:39 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:59:39 -0400 Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 23 Sep 2005 08:58:04 EDT." <322C3B0D-9B38-4B48-8DF8-0A7654FFEEC8@mind-to-mind.com> Message-ID: <200509231959.j8NJxd1d000570@mwave.heeltoe.com> Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote: > >FWIW. I used to use Armour All, but I found that for some things >(Vinyl on seats in particular), Armour All + Sun = Dried and Cracked. Ugg - I *never* use Armour All on a car - anywhere. It's evil. There are many many good products for rubber and vinyl on cars. Black again, Sonax and Meguiar products are all really good. Read this: http://www.carcareonline.com/viewarticle.aspx?art=13 Go to Car Care Specialties www.carecareonline.com and read his "howto's". Letherique changed my life - I took old leather 911 seats and made them new again. The Sonax saved many rubber seals for me. I have to assume these products would also work on the same materials used elsewhere. [Nothing better than running your fingers over a fine automobile, covered with carnuba wax :-)] -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Sep 23 15:03:18 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:03:18 -0400 Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:28:45." <3.0.6.16.20050923112845.331f3e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200509232003.j8NK3IlT001756@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Joe R." wrote: ... >It's not just his >repeated use of the (non)word "stuph" but also his grammer, lack of >punctuation and capitalization as well as other distorted spellings. yes, but he has mad skillz :-) -brad From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 23 15:08:59 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: State of the art In-Reply-To: <17204.914.506893.698958@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200509220636240100.12167E5F@192.168.42.129> <4332B879.8040802@yahoo.co.uk> <200509221445160125.011F1B33@10.0.0.252> <17204.914.506893.698958@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050923130705.O72742@shell.lmi.net> > There's a group somewhere (can't remember the name or URL) working on > developing parallel processing algorithms that run on your graphics > card -- essentially treating it as a vector coprocessor for your PC. That reminds me of some attempts that were made to use Macintosh as a terminal, and run programs on the Laserwriter (which had a slightly faster 68000 than the computer). From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Sep 23 23:38:08 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 05:38:08 +0100 Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20050923091455.49b79bb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20050923112845.331f3e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4334D830.4040604@gjcp.net> > At 11:28 AM -0700 9/23/05, Joe R. wrote: >> >> I know what it sounds like. I was trying to be tackful but I guess I'll s/tack/tact/ Gordon. From emu at ecubics.com Fri Sep 23 15:38:53 2005 From: emu at ecubics.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 14:38:53 -0600 Subject: State of the art In-Reply-To: <17204.914.506893.698958@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200509220636240100.12167E5F@192.168.42.129> <4332B879.8040802@yahoo.co.uk> <200509221445160125.011F1B33@10.0.0.252> <17204.914.506893.698958@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <433467DD.3030202@ecubics.com> Paul Koning wrote: > > There's a group somewhere (can't remember the name or URL) working on > developing parallel processing algorithms that run on your graphics > card -- essentially treating it as a vector coprocessor for your PC. > www.gpgpu.org cheers From robo58 at optonline.net Fri Sep 23 16:04:42 2005 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:04:42 -0400 Subject: orbis drive References: <00c801c5bf9e$3d839a20$6601a8c0@studio> Message-ID: <001101c5c082$6ba31ae0$6401a8c0@P43200> Hi Thom, I don't know where you can find Orbis drives. But if they are the original style single sided drives then you can also look for Remex 8" drives. Remex manufactured paper tape readers and punches and then branched out into Floppy drives. They purchased units from Orbis and relabled them at the time. Robo ----- Original Message ----- From: "thom restivo" To: Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:51 PM Subject: orbis drive > Does anyone know where I can find one or two Orbis drives for 8" > floppies? I believe it's the only drive that will read floppies created > on an orbis drive. > > thom > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Sep 23 17:43:39 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:43:39 -0700 Subject: HP TV adapter of some sort References: <007a01c5beb9$a4633740$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4334851B.46C8E0F3@msm.umr.edu> Jay, I started found this item that HP'ers may be interested in. It didn't have a photo attached to it last night, but does now. dont know much but it does seem to be the correct vintage for hp21xx type box. Jim ebay number 5247506155 Jay West wrote: From Ladyelec at aol.com Fri Sep 23 18:05:23 2005 From: Ladyelec at aol.com (Ladyelec at aol.com) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 19:05:23 EDT Subject: tv series Lost Message-ID: Anyone watch the TV series Lost this week? What kind of computer does the mystery man in the bunker have? Thanks ahead of time, On digest, Isa in Houston riding Rita out From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 23 18:17:59 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:17:59 -0600 Subject: State of the art In-Reply-To: <0INA008EE327QXF0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0INA008EE327QXF0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43348D27.8090207@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > Actually the sound card modes like WJST and PSK31 only need the sound card > to aquire the signal at audio baseband then the CPU does the heavy lifting. > There is also software defined radio, all modes (AM/FM/SSB/CW) where the > CPU after aquiring quadrature baseband does the decode work, the RF portion > of a reciever can be simple to the extreme but provide prformance and > features at the upper end. Call me a old fart but I still like Analog Radio and real music rather than digital this and that. I still think the BEST radio's are still ones built by hand rather than a mass market product like you see now days. While I don't deal in HAM radio I do see ShortWave Radio's now and then ranging from $49 to $100 with very few features that I consider now to be valuable. State of the Art to me is using the best knowlage and best use of components at the time rather than cheapest product as it now is. -- mass production of high speed low quality FET's -- is today's state of the art for all electronic devices built today. DSP is great for getting a signal out of noise like a space probe with a watt or two of power but just what is the front end of the reciver like? Playing with HI-fi audio I found negitive feedback is often mis-used. Non-linear components generate x**n harmonics that creates more noise because nobody considers this anymore. A valve diode I think is the lowest noise diode but who uses that. XTAL radio people have great front ends with a high Q but who uses that? All this aside ham radio still needs good people who know the equipment rather than some $$$$ product by microsoft-radio-95 so when ham people need to be called out for real work saving people with radio they can do it be it state of the art or a old transiver that they just happen to have kicking around with them at the time. > Allison > KB1GMX . From Billy.Pettit at wdc.com Fri Sep 23 18:32:57 2005 From: Billy.Pettit at wdc.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:32:57 -0700 Subject: Orbis Message-ID: ROBO5.8 wrote: Hi Thom, I don't know where you can find Orbis drives. But if they are the original style single sided drives then you can also look for Remex 8" drives. Remex manufactured paper tape readers and punches and then branched out into Floppy drives. They purchased units from Orbis and relabled them at the time. ROBO Remex also made a series of drives using a plastic base casting. It was a legendary cost reduction and ensured that nobody else would make that same mistake again. The casting would shift enough in normal use to give constant read and write errors. It was a loser then and I doubt it has improved. In my opinion, using Remex with valuble data is where you want to stop being "original or authentic" in your restoration. Install another vendor or don't use Remex for real data. You can use it to make the disk go around, but even just spinning the disk made wierd schreeching noises. In all my testing, I never found one that could read its own written disks more than a few days. It was one of the worst drives ever made and deservedly died an early death. Billy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 23 17:47:38 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 23:47:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Cleaning up battery leakage In-Reply-To: <17204.1931.69652.119365@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Sep 23, 5 09:47:55 am Message-ID: > > >>>>> "steven" == steven stengel writes: > > steven> Vinegar with an acid-brush always works for me. Afterwards, > steven> IPA (isopropyl alcohol) cleans away the residue. > > Vinegar is good if the electrolyte is alkaline. If memory serves, Yes, you want to attmept to neutralise the electrolyte. For an acidic electrolyte (e.g. from a lead-acid battery), try something like sodium carbonate (washing soda). For an alkaline electrolyte (e.g. from a NiCd), you want a chemically weak acid. I normally use citric acid, it smells nicer than vinegar :-). -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Sep 23 18:36:20 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 19:36:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: State of the art In-Reply-To: <43348D27.8090207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Call me a old fart but I still like Analog Radio and real music rather > than digital this and that. I still think the BEST radio's are still > ones built by hand rather than a mass market product like you see now > days. This is an interesting opinion, as it is opposite to what the old fart ham guys thought (and still do). Ever since the 1930s, radio receivers were purchased, with the engineering left to the experts (National, Collins, Hammarlund, etc.), but the transmitters were almost always homebrewed. There is a reason for this - making a even a "just good" receiver is rather difficult, but making an excellent transmitter is not that hard. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Sep 23 15:50:53 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 20:50:53 +0000 Subject: Pay-Pal (was: Don't use "BidPay"!!!!) In-Reply-To: <200509231715.j8NHF7HI021969@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200509231702.j8NH2BXk014156@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050924004418.LLCH1799.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > That said, I have had problems with Pay-Pal transactions, and so have people > who I know (one whose entire account was "stolen" to the tune of thousands > of dollars), and, in the end, after some hassle and some time, it was all > resolved "satisfactorily". Just in: Paypal just blasted me warning that "my" paypal account is closed! What? Closing a pretend account? I don't open paypal with them, for that reason of this idiocity. I still have this silly "scary" email from paypal for anyone to check. What I can tell is that: The ebay seller is using paypal and I refused to deal with this so I sent seller a payment in cash and accepted it because seller just told me got the money and sent the item. (in this case an PCIII Lunchbox). Cheers, Wizard From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 23 19:48:31 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pay-Pal (was: Don't use "BidPay"!!!!) In-Reply-To: <20050924004418.LLCH1799.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <200509231702.j8NH2BXk014156@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050924004418.LLCH1799.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <20050923174614.C72742@shell.lmi.net> > Just in: > Paypal just blasted me warning that "my" paypal account is closed! > What? Closing a pretend account? I don't open paypal with them, for > that reason of this idiocity. I still have this silly "scary" email > from paypal for anyone to check. Look carefully at the headers. It purports to be from Paypal, and wants you to go give your paypal name and password to their fake "Paypal" website. From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Sep 23 16:02:46 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 21:02:46 +0000 Subject: Orbis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > > ROBO5.8 wrote: > ROBO > > Remex also made a series of drives using a plastic base casting. It was a > legendary cost reduction and ensured that nobody else would make that same > mistake again. SNIP > Billy Look for Epson 3.5" drives, they are plastic, have to remove the metal sleeve to see this black plastic chassis, also the head sevro is stepper with tiny, tiny fine toothed rack (thin bronze) & prinion (also tiny dia). Not suitable for heavy use. Cheers, Wizard From john at guntersville.net Fri Sep 23 19:56:19 2005 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 19:56:19 -0500 Subject: Pay-Pal (was: Don't use "BidPay"!!!!) References: <200509231702.j8NH2BXk014156@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050924004418.LLCH1799.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <4334A433.BCB894EF@guntersville.net> jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > > > That said, I have had problems with Pay-Pal transactions, and so have people > > who I know (one whose entire account was "stolen" to the tune of thousands > > of dollars), and, in the end, after some hassle and some time, it was all > > resolved "satisfactorily". > > Just in: > > Paypal just blasted me warning that "my" paypal account is closed! > What? Closing a pretend account? I don't open paypal with them, for > that reason of this idiocity. I still have this silly "scary" email > from paypal for anyone to check. > > What I can tell is that: > The ebay seller is using paypal and I refused to deal with this so I > sent seller a payment in cash and accepted it because seller just > told me got the money and sent the item. (in this case an PCIII > Lunchbox). > > Cheers, Wizard I get them all the time. That is a scam trying to get your paypal log on info. Put your mouse pointer over the URL to go to and you will notice it is to a numerical address and not to paypal.com. Look up the numerical address and it will probably be some third world country. I see the same thing but supposedly from ebay also. From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Fri Sep 23 19:58:39 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: tv series Lost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050924005839.74087.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> looks like an Apple II+ hooked up as a terminal to a mainframe of some sort???? --- Ladyelec at aol.com wrote: > Anyone watch the TV series Lost this week? What kind > of computer does the > mystery man in the bunker have? > Thanks ahead of time, On digest, > Isa in Houston riding Rita out > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 23 19:58:20 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:58:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: State of the art In-Reply-To: <200509221445160125.011F1B33@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Times certainly do change. Does anyone know what became of very few > ETA-10's that were built? Museum or landfill? At least one (in sad shape) made its way to the Computer History Museum. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Sep 23 19:59:44 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 19:59:44 -0500 Subject: IRIS 3120 in Renton (Seattle area) Message-ID: I was just down at Tukwila RE-PC picking up a PSU, and I noticed they had a niceish complete (includes monitor, kbd, mouse) SGI IRIS 3120 on the floor, no price yet and they said it wasn't ready for sale (possibly they are concerned about wiping the drive- which they do). If anyone's interested (and has access to GL2-W disttapes) they might want to open up inquiries. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 23 20:04:05 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IRIS 3120 in Renton (Seattle area) Message-ID: <20050924010405.39926188D77@bitsavers.org> Someone should grab this. There aren't many complete units left I should be able to dig up a tape set somewhere. From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Sep 23 20:08:41 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 20:08:41 -0500 Subject: Cleaning up battery leakage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200509240118.j8O1ID0R028833@keith.ezwind.net> ... > Yes, you want to attmept to neutralise the electrolyte. For > an acidic electrolyte (e.g. from a lead-acid battery), try > something like sodium carbonate (washing soda). Or, Sodium Bicarbonate, which you probably already have in the kitchen. Gil From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 23 20:09:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: <200509232003.j8NK3IlT001756@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Sep 2005, Brad Parker wrote: > "Joe R." wrote: > ... > >It's not just his > >repeated use of the (non)word "stuph" but also his grammer, lack of > >punctuation and capitalization as well as other distorted spellings. > > yes, but he has mad skillz :-) Yo, wurd up dawg! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 23 20:15:26 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: State of the art In-Reply-To: <20050923130705.O72742@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Sep 23, 5 01:08:59 pm" Message-ID: <200509240115.SAA30428@floodgap.com> > > There's a group somewhere (can't remember the name or URL) working on > > developing parallel processing algorithms that run on your graphics > > card -- essentially treating it as a vector coprocessor for your PC. > > That reminds me of some attempts that were made to use Macintosh as a > terminal, and run programs on the Laserwriter (which had a slightly faster > 68000 than the computer). There was also various programs for the C64, mostly demos, that used the 1541 as a co-processor. This was largely hampered by the 1541's paltry RAM and the slow IEC bus, though. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You do not have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body. -- C.S. Lewis ----- From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Sep 23 20:25:39 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 20:25:39 -0500 Subject: HP TV adapter of some sort References: <007a01c5beb9$a4633740$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4334851B.46C8E0F3@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <017b01c5c0a6$e024a810$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote.... > I started found this item that HP'ers may be interested in. It didn't > have a photo attached to it last night, but does now. dont know much > but it does seem to be the correct vintage for hp21xx type box. I had a fair number (maybe around 8) of these tv interface cards for the 21MX machines. I think I gave most if not all of them to Bob Shannon, didn't figure I'd ever want one. I have the datasheet on them somewhere.... Jay From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Sep 23 20:43:50 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 18:43:50 -0700 Subject: HP TV adapter of some sort In-Reply-To: <017b01c5c0a6$e024a810$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <007a01c5beb9$a4633740$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4334851B.46C8E0F3@msm.umr.edu> <017b01c5c0a6$e024a810$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e9050923184328b2ab6b@mail.gmail.com> On 9/23/05, Jay West wrote: > > I had a fair number (maybe around 8) of these tv interface cards for the > 21MX machines. I think I gave most if not all of them to Bob Shannon, didn't > figure I'd ever want one. I have the datasheet on them somewhere.... > Seems like it would be an interesting interface. I wouldn't mind having one to add a bitmap display to my HP 1000. Might try to grab one of these. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/interfaces/91200-90001_TVintfSvc_Nov76.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/interfaces/91200-90005_TVintfDvr_Nov79.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/interfaces/91200-90006_TVintfPgm_Apr77.pdf From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 23 21:08:00 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 22:08:00 -0400 Subject: State of the art Message-ID: <0INA00769TWM8272@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: State of the art > From: woodelf > Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 17:17:59 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >> Actually the sound card modes like WJST and PSK31 only need the sound card >> to aquire the signal at audio baseband then the CPU does the heavy lifting. >> There is also software defined radio, all modes (AM/FM/SSB/CW) where the >> CPU after aquiring quadrature baseband does the decode work, the RF portion >> of a reciever can be simple to the extreme but provide prformance and >> features at the upper end. > >Call me a old fart but I still like Analog Radio and real music rather >than digital this and that. I still think the BEST radio's are still >ones built by hand rather than a mass market product like you see now >days. While I don't deal in HAM radio I do see ShortWave Radio's now and >then ranging from $49 to $100 with very few features that I consider >now to be valuable. State of the Art to me is using the best knowlage >and best use of components at the time rather than cheapest product as >it now is. -- mass production of high speed low quality FET's -- is >today's state of the art for all electronic devices built today. >DSP is great for getting a signal out of noise like a space probe >with a watt or two of power but just what is the front end of the >reciver like? Playing with HI-fi audio I found negitive feedback >is often mis-used. Non-linear components generate x**n harmonics >that creates more noise because nobody considers this anymore. >A valve diode I think is the lowest noise diode but who uses that. >XTAL radio people have great front ends with a high Q but who uses that? >All this aside ham radio still needs good people who know the >equipment rather than some $$$$ product by microsoft-radio-95 so when >ham people need to be called out for real work saving people with radio >they can do it be it state of the art or a old transiver that they just >happen to have kicking around with them at the time. Then you'd like the 5 tube 75/80m RX I've built. Or maybe the 6m SSB transceiver using analog phasing techniques. However.. Thermionic diodes are noisy, much more so than silicon. Tubes at RF cannot approach the noise figured that cheap transistors can. Though a 3CX1000 amp is still cheaper than a transistor one and far more tolerent of mishandling. Crystal sets could not eliminate WGSM (740am) 3000W and 1 mile away and allow me to hear WABC 770khz 40 miles away. Non-linearity it's bad design for some things but useful where efficientcy counts. Look at Class E trannsmitters and switchmode power supplies for efficientcy. I have a tranceiver for 6M/2M that uses IF dsp and it's frontend is very sophisticated and hears as good as any. To beat that took me a year using some very good analog technology and it's limited to 6M and needs a digital display for the analog VFO. Great radio BUT, not significantly better than the commercial one save for a few narrow things I only care about. What you should check out is Softrock, uses the soundard and CPU to do the back end stuff and it's frontend is a 29$ kit. www.amqrp.org/kits/softrock40/index.html (it's sold out but the details are there). So whats this got to do with computers. Well as cpu cycles get cheaper, DSP can do things that analog had to do but not as well. Things like brick wall filters that don't ring and phase delays that are frequency invarient are very hard to do with analog. Right now a sound card and a leftover 30-400mhz PC is a pretty cheap way to do dsp but, there are chips out there that coming in cheaper and only require programming. The difference is the computer can also deliver the user interface or as pilots call them the "glass cockpit" rather than a box of knobs and dials. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 23 21:22:06 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 19:22:06 -0700 Subject: Assembling PDF's from images In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050923112845.331f3e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050923091455.49b79bb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20050923112845.331f3e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: I know several people here use tools to take a directory of images and turn them into a PDF. I'm looking for some advice on how to do this. Ideas on how to do this using either free or commercial software is fine. I gather that the images will be JPEG (I don't know they are planning on capturing the images yet, and will try to convince them to use a loss less format, an option might be TIFF or Nikon RAW). Should anyone care this is for a Historical Library, and you now know as much as I know. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 23 21:34:03 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 19:34:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Assembling PDF's from images Message-ID: <20050924023403.91107188D8D@bitsavers.org> tumble (tumble.brouhaha.com) should do what you need tiff or jpg input work fine. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Sep 23 21:44:44 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 22:44:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pay-Pal (was: Don't use "BidPay"!!!!) In-Reply-To: <4334A433.BCB894EF@guntersville.net> References: <200509231702.j8NH2BXk014156@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050924004418.LLCH1799.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <4334A433.BCB894EF@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <200509240254.WAA04972@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Paypal just blasted me warning that "my" paypal account is closed! >> What? Closing a pretend account? > I get them all the time. That is a scam trying to get your paypal > log on info. Right. Phishing, it's called. The idea is to send you mail "from" paypal, or your bank, or amazon, or some such, asking (on one pretext or another) for various identification data, with various tricks performed to make it look as though you're giving it to the people the mail claims to be from rather than some scammer working off a 0wn3d end-user machine or some Russian, Chinese, etc, host. And of course, if you fall for it, the scammer now has your ID info and can go impersonate you, with various unpleasant consequences. > Put your mouse pointer over the URL to go to and you will notice it > is to a numerical address and not to paypal.com. Maybe. Depending on the mailreader in use and, in some cases, how it's configured, even that may not reveal the trickery. The only way to be sure you're looking at the page you think you are is to start up a Web browser separately - not by clicking anything in the mail - and type the URL into the Web browser yourself. And, of course, apply common sense first. If you don't have a PayPal account, PayPal won't be asking you for info (or at least if they do they should be told to take the same hike a scammer should); if you don't bank with CitiBank, a mail from CitiBank about problems with your account can't be for real; etc. > Look up the numerical address and it will probably be some third > world country. I see the same thing but supposedly from ebay also. Yeah. Stick around a while and you'll probably see them "from" more organizations. I've seen phishes "from" at least three banks, paypal, and ebay - none of which I've done business with. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Sep 23 18:06:20 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 23:06:20 +0000 Subject: Pay-Pal (was: Don't use "BidPay"!!!!) In-Reply-To: <200509240254.WAA04972@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <4334A433.BCB894EF@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <20050924025940.XZKA28424.tomts25-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > >> Paypal just blasted me warning that "my" paypal account is closed! > >> What? Closing a pretend account? > > I get them all the time. That is a scam trying to get your paypal > > log on info. > > Right. Phishing, it's called. The idea is to send you mail "from" Snip > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B I wanted to give you heads up with all this paypal thing. The reason was I showed this, I was just aware that I know email is not one to give info away ON REQUEST. If I have to do it I must go to my intitutions and do it in person or by phone, or go directly to website but not by this method, depending. Cheers, Wizard From john at guntersville.net Fri Sep 23 22:31:22 2005 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 22:31:22 -0500 Subject: Pay-Pal (was: Don't use "BidPay"!!!!) References: <200509231702.j8NH2BXk014156@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050924004418.LLCH1799.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <4334A433.BCB894EF@guntersville.net> <200509240254.WAA04972@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <4334C88A.90FC4ECF@guntersville.net> der Mouse wrote: > > >> Paypal just blasted me warning that "my" paypal account is closed! > >> What? Closing a pretend account? > > I get them all the time. That is a scam trying to get your paypal > > log on info. > > Right. Phishing, it's called. The idea is to send you mail "from" Snip Maybe I should report them to the state boys since I doubt they have a valid Alabama phishing license. :-) From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Sep 23 22:48:43 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 20:48:43 -0700 Subject: some Tek and apollo in PDX Message-ID: I think Goldsnipper (on ebay and his ebay store) has an Apollo 600, sans monitor and Kbd and a Tek 4114 in his whse at the moment. He has a high idea of value but there is not that much available left. He is moving so a lot of stuff is getting scrapped. His name is Findley. He used to be a secondary market DG dealer. And maintained an IBM 438, which I think he still has. He is located in Portland, OR, USA I checked and he doesn't have any of the Data General Dasher 100 and 200 terminals left. He does have one D100 printer (the unusual "L" shaped one) left. Not cheap and it will not get scrapped. I have a bunch of Tektronix 4115 to 4128 circuit cards in my container but no systems left. I also have an Apollo 570T complete burried. It was running when put away. No docs though. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From gilcarrick at comcast.net Fri Sep 23 22:53:23 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 22:53:23 -0500 Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic In-Reply-To: <200509231959.j8NJxd1d000570@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200509240403.j8O4317f029900@keith.ezwind.net> ... > There are many many good products for rubber and vinyl on > cars. Black again, Sonax and Meguiar products are all really good. > > Read this: http://www.carcareonline.com/viewarticle.aspx?art=13 > > Go to Car Care Specialties www.carecareonline.com and read > his "howto's". > ... I would be a little less skeptical if this site were not selling all these other products. Gil From john at guntersville.net Fri Sep 23 22:54:15 2005 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 22:54:15 -0500 Subject: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation Message-ID: <4334CDE7.1A27DA12@guntersville.net> Does anyone on the list know of online documentation or have the paper versions for the following docs. So far all I have found online was a list of docs on bitsavers and other locations but they didn't show a location for these. Printserver 40 Service Repair Guide EK-LPS40-SV VAX/VMS Installation Guide: Printserver 40 Client AA-HL83A-TE VAX/VMS Installation Guide: Printserver 40 Supporting Host AA-HL90A-TE VAX/VMS Management/Users Guide: Printserver 40 Client AA-FP19A-TE VAX/VMS Management Guide: Printserver 40 Supporting Host AA-FP24A-TE Also the following related documentation would be nice to have but not all that necessary. Postscript Language Tutorial and Cookbook AA-HL86A-TE Postscript Language Reference Manual AA-HL87A-TE Printservet 40 Programmer's Supplement AA-HL84A-TE Postscript Transilators Reference Manual AA-HL85A-TE Thanks in advance John From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Sep 23 23:13:35 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 21:13:35 -0700 Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic In-Reply-To: <200509240403.j8O4317f029900@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200509231959.j8NJxd1d000570@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200509240403.j8O4317f029900@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: I had friends that refinished telephones and they actually buffed the imperfections with an abrasive wheel and then a polishing wheel. It took off yellowing color of the plastic and then repolished them. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sat Sep 24 00:24:22 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 07:24:22 +0200 Subject: Pay-Pal (was: Don't use "BidPay"!!!!) References: <200509231702.j8NH2BXk014156@dewey.classiccmp.org><20050924004418.LLCH1799.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <20050923174614.C72742@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <002001c5c0c8$38ae5af0$2101a8c0@finans> Fra: "Fred Cisin" > > Just in: > > Paypal just blasted me warning that "my" paypal account is closed! > > What? Closing a pretend account? I don't open paypal with them, for > > that reason of this idiocity. I still have this silly "scary" email > > from paypal for anyone to check. > > Look carefully at the headers. It purports to be from Paypal, > and wants you to go give your paypal name and password to their > fake "Paypal" website. > Also, they dont write "Dear Member" or so, but use your real name Nico From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 23 01:40:39 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 23:40:39 -0700 Subject: Elephant Memory Systems tribute page In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200509222340390871.030940D1@10.0.0.252> I took a quick look at some of my oldest (late 1970's) 5.25" 100 tpi diskettes that are still readable. Mostly Dysan, with a few CDC "Precision" blue-on-white diskettes and a few Dennison Kybe (whoever made those). Maybe 2 or 3 3M. Not a single Elephant in the lot, though I certainly purchased a few boxes back then. No Verbatims either. The funny thing is that I recall picking up a whole mess of CDC diskettes when CDC closed their retail operation and had a "going out of business" sale. I don't think I have a single one of those diskettes--all of the manufacturer's labels dried up and fell off, so I can't be sure. There was some pretty awful merchandise available at that time, however. I recall a mail-order outfit that sold unbranded diskettes for very cheap. In a lot, you could find several different heat-sealing patterns on the jackets and the cookies might even be slightly different colors. I'd suspected that they might be nothing more than floor sweepings from a couple of the major manufacturers. I recall a customer calling us with a very baffling problem, claiming that our copying software did not make reliable copies (we did a read after write). After banging my head on the desk for a few days, I finally asked the customer to send me some of these copies. Turned out that these were from the aforementioned mail order outfit and each diskette (these were DSDD 360K) had TWO hub rings installed--one right over the other, just slightly offset. Naturally, there was little chance that the diskettes would seat the same way with any two insertions. When I informed the customer of the problem, he was irate that we hadn't somehow picked the problem up in the software.... Some days you just can't win. Cheers, Chuck From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Sep 23 15:27:40 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 21:27:40 +0100 Subject: Altos 586 system sold on eBay In-Reply-To: <20050921195516.425601e5.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050919222552.508122be.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43300E06.7000908@gjcp.net> <20050921195516.425601e5.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4334653C.1070007@gjcp.net> Scott Stevens wrote: > Is your Altos a 386-processor system? Those are much newer than the 586 > which is a five-user 8086 system. Yes, it is. It has a 386 and a 186 on the main board, and a 286 for the network and additional serial port board. Gordon. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 23 09:42:27 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 07:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: <4333266B.1030107@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050923144227.45996.qmail@web61015.mail.yahoo.com> I'm in New Jersey currently, but that's likely to change in a matter of weeks (n.e. Pennsylvania probably). The Tek stuph is the most interesting to me. --- Jules Richardson wrote: > Chris M wrote: > > Sun 3/140 (saw one on ebay months ago, liked it). > Also > > early Apollo, Tektronix, perhaps SGI, and other > stuph. > > Location is helpful (partiularly country) - old > workstations tend to be > heavy and shipping costs make things prohibitive > (particularly overseas) > > A Sun's probably easiest to find intact - still lots > around complete and > working (exception being VME-based SPARC machines it > seems), and the > media's readily available. > > Apollos tend to be really thin on the ground > (manuals and Domain OS > media even more so). > > Tektronix systems still fetch real money. > > SGI system units are easy enough to find but the > older ones use > proprietary keyboards - most of which seem to be > missing (Indy-era > systems and newer work with a PC-compatible keyboard > so no problem with > those). Media can be tricky to get hold of. > > cheers > > Jules > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From clockj at email.com Fri Sep 23 11:17:19 2005 From: clockj at email.com (Jason Clock) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for a Compaq Portable (Original) - Rochester NY Message-ID: <20050923161719.98047.qmail@web30409.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello, I was referred to this address as I am looking for an Original Compaq Portable. It would be great to be functional, but is not necessary as long as it is complete. My company is doing a display and we unfortunately do not have one of these around anymore to show what we started with. Thanks for your assistance. Jason Clock From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Sep 23 23:37:32 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 05:37:32 +0100 Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20050923091455.49b79bb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20050923112845.331f3e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4334D80C.4050202@gjcp.net> > At 11:28 AM -0700 9/23/05, Joe R. wrote: >> >> I know what it sounds like. I was trying to be tackful but I guess I'll s/tack/tact/ Gordon. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 23 18:10:57 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:10:57 -0700 Subject: State of the art In-Reply-To: <20050923130705.O72742@shell.lmi.net> References: <200509220636240100.12167E5F@192.168.42.129> <4332B879.8040802@yahoo.co.uk> <200509221445160125.011F1B33@10.0.0.252> <17204.914.506893.698958@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050923130705.O72742@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200509231610570215.017E77EC@10.0.0.252> On 9/23/2005, Fred Cisin wrote: >That reminds me of some attempts that were made to use Macintosh as a >terminal, and run programs on the Laserwriter (which had a slightly faster >68000 than the computer). It wasn't just for Macs, was it? Didn't Don Lancaster have some sort of scheme for running math on any Postscript-capable printer? Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 24 01:25:05 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 00:25:05 -0600 Subject: State of the art -radio In-Reply-To: <0INA00769TWM8272@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0INA00769TWM8272@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4334F141.3040108@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > Then you'd like the 5 tube 75/80m RX I've built. Or maybe the 6m SSB > transceiver using analog phasing techniques. I guess I might. > > However.. > > Thermionic diodes are noisy, much more so than silicon. Tubes at RF > cannot approach the noise figured that cheap transistors can. My mistake here, I was thinking DC offset rather than noise. Though > a 3CX1000 amp is still cheaper than a transistor one and far more > tolerent of mishandling. That is quite true. > Crystal sets could not eliminate WGSM (740am) 3000W and 1 mile > away and allow me to hear WABC 770khz 40 miles away. Well add another Crystal -- Filter that is -- :) I agree that DSP is great for brick wall filters but you might want to check up on Crystal Sets on the internet because I read a few people saying that the design of the radios in the past are based on incorrect theory. > Non-linearity it's bad design for some things but useful where > efficientcy counts. Look at Class E trannsmitters and switchmode > power supplies for efficientcy. That is only because you need a sine wave out of the transmiter something that is easy to restore with a tuned circuit. You had better not look at what I consider a state of the art HI-Fi amp to be, the one I built from plans I found on the web. A whole 1.25? watts RMS per channel. I consider it state of the art because 1) It has a regulated power supply ( Zener diode - 800 volt 6.5 amp FET pass tranistor ) 2) Single ended ultra-linear ( 50%) operation. A 6SL7 driver and 6V6GT for the power amp. > I have a tranceiver for 6M/2M that uses IF dsp and it's frontend is > very sophisticated and hears as good as any. To beat that took me > a year using some very good analog technology and it's limited to > 6M and needs a digital display for the analog VFO. Great radio BUT, > not significantly better than the commercial one save for a few narrow > things I only care about. > > What you should check out is Softrock, uses the soundard and CPU > to do the back end stuff and it's frontend is a 29$ kit. > > www.amqrp.org/kits/softrock40/index.html (it's sold out but the > details are there). > But is it open source? I don't like CLOSED equipment or ideas. > So whats this got to do with computers. Well as cpu cycles get cheaper, > DSP can do things that analog had to do but not as well. Things like > brick wall filters that don't ring and phase delays that are frequency > invarient are very hard to do with analog. Right now a sound card > and a leftover 30-400mhz PC is a pretty cheap way to do dsp but, > there are chips out there that coming in cheaper and only require > programming. The difference is the computer can also deliver the > user interface or as pilots call them the "glass cockpit" rather than > a box of knobs and dials. Some day I might want to break the glass and look inside. Still if you have the PC it a good use for it, since it too new to be a classic computer. :) > > Allison PS. I consider state of the art for personal computers to a GOOD 6809 OS/9 system but not a with a COCO. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 24 02:18:25 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 00:18:25 -0700 Subject: Orbis In-Reply-To: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> References: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <200509240018250221.033CBE81@10.0.0.252> On 9/23/2005, jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: >Look for Epson 3.5" drives, they are plastic, have to remove the >metal sleeve to see this black plastic chassis, also the head sevro >is stepper with tiny, tiny fine toothed rack (thin bronze) & prinion >(also tiny dia). Not suitable for heavy use. It's actually pretty amazing, to see what lengths vendors would go to do cost-reduce components. Portable Smith Corona word processors used a 2.8" drive that worked the heads via a follower than ran in a spiral groove molded into a plastic disk that was driven by the spindle motor through a clutch. Basically, pulsing the clutch caused the head to move in a continuous spiral pattern from the beginning of the diskette to the end. Sort of a windshield-wiper auto-completion mechanism. You could read or write the entire diskette (about 60K (MFM), if memory serves), but nothing less than that. A gutless wonder if there ever was one. It was actually pretty robust. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 24 02:27:29 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 00:27:29 -0700 Subject: State of the art In-Reply-To: <17204.914.506893.698958@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200509220636240100.12167E5F@192.168.42.129> <4332B879.8040802@yahoo.co.uk> <200509221445160125.011F1B33@10.0.0.252> <17204.914.506893.698958@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200509240027290666.03450D28@10.0.0.252> On 9/23/2005, Paul Koning wrote: >20 GFlops with a 3 GHz processor? How can that be -- that would >require 3 FP functional units per core, each issuing one instruction >per clock cycle. Did you mean 2 GFlops? Could be smoke-and-mirror type of benchmarking, but here's the quote: "However, said University of Virginia assistant professor David Luebke, a 3-GHz, dual-core Pentium 4 Extreme Edition's arithmetic units will theoretically run as much as 24.6 Gflops." Admittedly, there are some weasel words there like "theoretically" and "as much as", but it might also be that University of Virginia assistant professor David Luebke moved a decimal point somewhere. Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Sep 24 04:40:38 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 10:40:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Assembling PDF's from images In-Reply-To: <20050924023403.91107188D8D@bitsavers.org> References: <20050924023403.91107188D8D@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <44554.195.212.29.67.1127554838.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > > tumble (tumble.brouhaha.com) should do what you need > tiff or jpg input work fine. > > I just used convert to turn a stack of .jpg files into a .ps, and then ps2pdf. Seems to work ok. Gordon. From bert at brothom.nl Sat Sep 24 06:26:37 2005 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 12:26:37 +0100 Subject: history of homedirs on unices Message-ID: <433537ED.6010506@brothom.nl> Hi, I wonder: nowadays most unices have their homedirectories in /home. Minix however used to have its homedirectories in /usr. Did "real" unices used to have the homedirectories their as well? Can someone tell something about how that evolved? I'm probably to young to know (31). Bert From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Sep 24 07:19:12 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 08:19:12 -0400 Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 23 Sep 2005 22:53:23 CDT." <200509240403.j8O4317f029900@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200509241219.j8OCJCFi014435@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Gil Carrick" wrote: >... >> There are many many good products for rubber and vinyl on >> cars. Black again, Sonax and Meguiar products are all really good. >> >> Read this: http://www.carcareonline.com/viewarticle.aspx?art=13 >> >> Go to Car Care Specialties www.carecareonline.com and read >> his "howto's". >> >... > >I would be a little less skeptical if this site were not selling all these >other products. That's a reasonable thought, but if you read his "how to's" you quickly find out he's a total (and I mean *total*) fanatic who just happens to have found a way to make a living from his obsession. All I can say is I've used a number of things from his sight and I've been really, really pleased. He's never steered me wrong. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Sep 24 07:23:36 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 08:23:36 -0400 Subject: history of homedirs on unices In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 24 Sep 2005 12:26:37 BST." <433537ED.6010506@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <200509241223.j8OCNbDJ014641@mwave.heeltoe.com> Bert Thomas wrote: >Hi, > >I wonder: nowadays most unices have their homedirectories in /home. >Minix however used to have its homedirectories in /usr. Did "real" >unices used to have the homedirectories their as well? Can someone tell >something about how that evolved? I'm probably to young to know (31). as I recall, all unix's up through bsd would default to putting users in /usr. I think when sun went diskless with nfs they started moving user dirs out of /usr. certainly when things like automounter became popular (mostly on suns as I remember) alternate pathnames for user dir popped up. I would claim that all bsd and pre-bsd's used /usr for home dirs. -brad From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 24 07:55:28 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 08:55:28 -0400 Subject: history of homedirs on unices In-Reply-To: <433537ED.6010506@brothom.nl> References: <433537ED.6010506@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <43354CC0.nailGY2110Z2L@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Minix however used to have its homedirectories in /usr. Did "real" > unices used to have the homedirectories their as well? This is actually a matter mostly of partitioning. On a system with a small number of spindles, "/usr" was usually the largest disk/partition, and most users had their home directories there (this tradition continues with many commercial Unices). On a system with a large number of users and spindles, very often there were multiple root directories used for home directories. For example there would be a disk mounted as /users1 and it would have user's home directories of /users1/aaron and /users1/able and /users1/acton etc., and then there would be a disk mounted as /users2 and it would have a bunch of home directories on it, etc. Other places would mount these as /usr/users1/aaron, /usr/users1/able, etc., keeping up the tradition of having them under the "/usr" umbrella. Sometimes all the disparate spindles were hidden by making links from a common /usr/users or /users directory to the spindle/directory where the home directory really resided. This is much nicer if you're gonna be migrating to larger disks someday. Many of the inconvenient things of spindles and mount points we no longer do if not necessary. I suppose /home is a good point to start at and then if necessary use link to the actually partition where the user's home directory resides. For some reason, the old way of partitioning unix systems still lives on although the need for multiple mount points and spindles doesn't matter much in a world of multi-hundred-Gbyte disks. I suppose it's like "always make your swap partition twice the size of physical memory" even though the rationale behind that recommendation was stale 15 years ago and is much more stale today! Partitions do come in handy for many reasons of convenience, but most of the stale recommendations are more of an inconvenience now. Tim. From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Sep 24 08:15:29 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 08:15:29 -0500 Subject: history of homedirs on unices In-Reply-To: <43354CC0.nailGY2110Z2L@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <433537ED.6010506@brothom.nl> <43354CC0.nailGY2110Z2L@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050924081044.04e37b38@mail> At 07:55 AM 9/24/2005, Tim Shoppa wrote: >Partitions do come in handy for many reasons of convenience, but >most of the stale recommendations are more of an inconvenience now. But the concept of putting all the user's data in a single place and not all over the drive and mixed-in with executables, that's still relevant. Just yesterday, like many times before, I was helping a client try to grasp all the subtle info we'd need to know to back-up and restore a home Windows PC. Where does every app put its data and settings? In a file? In the registry? Quickbooks defaults to putting company files in its Program Files directory, Outlook hides its files under the user's My Documents tree, you can't drag My Documents to WinXP's CD-writing window because it puts all its temp files there, too, and gets confused because you're asking to recurse, so you curse, etc. - John From allain at panix.com Sat Sep 24 07:38:35 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 08:38:35 -0400 Subject: some Tek and apollo in PDX References: Message-ID: <004b01c5c104$e2278d40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> (Paxton) > I have a bunch of Tektronix 4115 to 4128 circuit cards in > my container but no systems left. I hope that means that you sent them off to happy homes. If someone said they had a working 4115 going out within 200 miles of me I'd have to take it. John A. From allain at panix.com Sat Sep 24 07:41:34 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 08:41:34 -0400 Subject: Pay-Pal (was: Don't use "BidPay"!!!!) References: <200509231702.j8NH2BXk014156@dewey.classiccmp.org><20050924004418.LLCH1799.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard><4334A433.BCB894EF@guntersville.net><200509240254.WAA04972@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4334C88A.90FC4ECF@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <006301c5c105$4caf95e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Phishing Consider yourself lucky the ones who are so naiive on this subject. I have received over 200 such messages in the last year and a half, just PayPal. Watch the mouseover resolutions of links to quickly verify that they are baddies. If that fails, then move your mouse to the extreme right margin and drag select back to the left to see if the link text is actually an image. Just two tricks that are used. Viewing HTML source for HREF's is just about the only absolute proof. Oh yeah, and if you view these emails while offline only, IMG='s that are generated from server CGI's can't get your IP address for their hitcounters. Lets raise Jon Postel from the dead, IETF: Immediate Action Required. John A. sorry for the crypticism From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Sep 24 09:06:59 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 10:06:59 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 25, Issue 42 In-Reply-To: <200509240658.j8O6wPLW022340@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200509241406.j8OE6uHI015756@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> > Paypal just blasted me warning that "my" paypal account is closed! > What? Closing a pretend account? I don't open paypal with them, for > that reason of this idiocity. I still have this silly "scary" email > from paypal for anyone to check. That E-Mail did not come from Pay-Pal. This was a "phishing" attack. The E-mail is completely phony, from a 3rd party who is trying to get your Pay-Pal user ID and password. If you click on the link (supposedly a link to pay-pal), you will go to a completely phony web site that looks EXACTLY like the real Pay-Pal site, and when you attempt to "log-in", you will have given your Pay-Pal user ID and password to a thief, who will then use it to access your real Pay-Pal site and clean you out, possibly to the tune of thousands, tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. Anyone who is "on the net" will get these "notices" from Pay-Pal, E-Bay and dozens of banks (with which they may not even have accounts). They are phony, and they do not actually come from the institutions. You ***MUST*** be aware of this and learn to understand that ALL of these a fraudulent attempts to commit theft of your identity. If you ever fall for even just one of these, you will be paying for and going through a living hell for a LONG time, perhaps years. The bottom line here is that if you get an E-Mail from an institution with a link, you just have to assume it's phony. If you are not sure, do not use the link, but rather long into the site's HOME PAGE (not the link) manually, and see if there seems to be a problem. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Sep 24 09:08:38 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 07:08:38 -0700 Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic In-Reply-To: References: <200509231959.j8NJxd1d000570@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200509240403.j8O4317f029900@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200509240708380965.1C80CC78@192.168.42.129> Hi, Paxton, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 23-Sep-05 at 21:13 Paxton Hoag wrote: >I had friends that refinished telephones and they actually buffed the >imperfections with an abrasive wheel and then a polishing wheel. It took >off yellowing color of the plastic and then repolished them. This is exactly the kind of technique I want to find out about. More specifically, I need to know if polishing compounds are involved and, if so, what to use. From your description, it already sounds like I need to start shopping for a bench grinder. Perhaps you can put me in contact with one of the restorers? Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Sep 24 09:11:39 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 07:11:39 -0700 Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic In-Reply-To: <322C3B0D-9B38-4B48-8DF8-0A7654FFEEC8@mind-to-mind.com> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616230483D545@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <322C3B0D-9B38-4B48-8DF8-0A7654FFEEC8@mind-to-mind.com> Message-ID: <200509240711390289.1C838CE0@192.168.42.129> Hi, Kevin & Tom, *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 23-Sep-05 at 08:58 Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote: >On Sep 22, 2005, at 7:34 PM, Parker, Kevin wrote: > >> Have you tried Armour All (that's what its called here) - its used >> for >> revitalising Vinyl and other plastic type stuff > >FWIW. I used to use Armour All, but I found that for some things >(Vinyl on seats in particular), Armour All + Sun = Dried and Cracked. That's a factor for sure, but I'm also dealing with HDPE, not vinyl. The surface is very different from anything I've seen in a car. Also, as I mentioned: These are going to need more than just rubbing with a cleaner or polish (I've already tried that, with some stuff made especially for high-density plastics). I actually need to take off the surface layer, as in smoothing it down, and then polish it. Armour All is simply not up to a task like that (I know 'cause I've used it myself on other things). Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Sep 24 09:19:09 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 07:19:09 -0700 Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic In-Reply-To: <200509240403.j8O4317f029900@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200509240403.j8O4317f029900@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200509240719090423.1C8A6B4C@192.168.42.130> Folks, I appreciate the suggestions, BUT... Please remember -- I'm NOT working with a car here. This is a quest to restore HDPE -- High-Density Polyethylene. I can't recall any vehicle I've driven in the last decade or so having anything but vinyl or polystyrene in it. So far, Paxton has had the best suggestion in the form of getting in touch with someone who restores old telephone equipment. I'm still open for others, especially if someone has actually done such restoration. Thanks much. *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 23-Sep-05 at 22:53 Gil Carrick wrote: >... >> There are many many good products for rubber and vinyl on >> cars. Black again, Sonax and Meguiar products are all really good. >> >> Read this: http://www.carcareonline.com/viewarticle.aspx?art=13 >> >> Go to Car Care Specialties www.carecareonline.com and read >> his "howto's". >> >... > >I would be a little less skeptical if this site were not selling all these >other products. > >Gil -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Sep 24 09:19:40 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 10:19:40 -0400 Subject: history of homedirs on unices In-Reply-To: <43354CC0.nailGY2110Z2L@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <433537ED.6010506@brothom.nl> <433537ED.6010506@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050924100032.03b057c0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tim Shoppa may have mentioned these words: > > Minix however used to have its homedirectories in /usr. Did "real" > > unices used to have the homedirectories their as well? [[ snippety ]] [[ Oh, waitaminit - maybe I should have just put 'snip' in there as 'snippety' isn't really a word, like stuph really isn't a word, and now someone's going to gig (as in military gig, as in point out my errors, not the computer gig) my spelling and whine about the fact that I'm not using 100% perfect grammar 100% of the time. Next, the non-words 'automagically' and 'frobnicate' will get me kicked off the list too!!! :-O ]] Get over it, willya? Sheesh. If you don't care for a particular person's grammar (or lack thereof) that's why you have a delete key. 'Nuff said. >For some reason, the old way of partitioning unix systems still lives >on although the need for multiple mount points and spindles doesn't >matter much in a world of multi-hundred-Gbyte disks.... That's a blanket statement that's *just plain wrong.* There are still a *lot* of reasons to divvy up spindles, and the primary one off the top of my head is a *nix mailserver. If the home directories are on the same spindle as the queue directory is on the same spindle as the SQL data, the hard drive spends all it's time seeking and very little time actually finding, and the server will grind to a halt with a relatively few users, and the CPU just twiddling it's thumbs. Multiple spindles on a technology where each spindle can be communicated with separately (read: SCSI) makes much more efficient use of rotational memory. It depends on where your bottlenecks are. > I suppose >it's like "always make your swap partition twice the size of physical >memory" even though the rationale behind that recommendation was >stale 15 years ago and is much more stale today! 10 years ago, I used to set my swap to 3x my RAM, and quite often used it. Albeit more slowly, but I did have a genuine need for that. I have more money now than 10 years ago, so I generally only set swap equal to available RAM, but even now I've been known to run out of swap on (rare) occasion. Again, it depends on the individual users' needs. >Partitions do come in handy for many reasons of convenience, but >most of the stale recommendations are more of an inconvenience now. Admin a few mailservers, and then call me when you change your mind. I'll happily buy you a beer then. (Hell, I'll get you ripped! [UK: pissed!] Sometimes alcohol is the only way I can keep my sanity with all the phishing / scams / spams / etc. I deal with on a daily basis.) But it pays the bills... mostly. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Sep 24 09:30:16 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 09:30:16 -0500 Subject: Altos 586 system sold on eBay In-Reply-To: <4334653C.1070007@gjcp.net> References: <20050919222552.508122be.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43300E06.7000908@gjcp.net> <20050921195516.425601e5.chenmel@earthlink.net> <4334653C.1070007@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20050924093016.00000a8e@brass> On Fri, 23 Sep 2005 21:27:40 +0100 Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Scott Stevens wrote: > > > Is your Altos a 386-processor system? Those are much newer than the 586 > > which is a five-user 8086 system. > > Yes, it is. It has a 386 and a 186 on the main board, and a 286 for the > network and additional serial port board. > > Gordon. Sounds a little like the Sun 386i, being a non-commodity 386 machine that runs a 'proprietary' OS. Does anybody know what an Altos 386 was designed to run? From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Sep 24 09:42:09 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 09:42:09 -0500 Subject: Pay-Pal (was: Don't use "BidPay"!!!!) In-Reply-To: <006301c5c105$4caf95e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <200509231702.j8NH2BXk014156@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050924004418.LLCH1799.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <4334A433.BCB894EF@guntersville.net> <200509240254.WAA04972@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <4334C88A.90FC4ECF@guntersville.net> <006301c5c105$4caf95e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20050924094209.0000792d@brass> On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 08:41:34 -0400 "John Allain" wrote: > > Phishing > > Consider yourself lucky the ones who are so naiive on this subject. I have > received over 200 such messages in the last year and a half, just PayPal. > Watch the mouseover resolutions of links to quickly verify that they are > baddies. If that fails, then move your mouse to the extreme right margin > and drag select back to the left to see if the link text is actually an > image. Just two tricks that are used. Viewing HTML source for HREF's > is just about the only absolute proof. That, or specifically using a mail client that 'breaks' HTML Mail. I get 'spam' all the time that consists of the babble nonsense they put in the 'plaintext' section to foil anti-spam mechanisms. Then there's a 'graphic attachment' that I *could* view if I wanted to bother. With a client like Lookout Express, Microsoft decides that for the user. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Sep 24 09:48:41 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 09:48:41 -0500 Subject: history of homedirs on unices In-Reply-To: <43354CC0.nailGY2110Z2L@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <433537ED.6010506@brothom.nl> <43354CC0.nailGY2110Z2L@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20050924094841.00000793@brass> On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 08:55:28 -0400 shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) wrote: > > Minix however used to have its homedirectories in /usr. Did "real" > > unices used to have the homedirectories their as well? > > This is actually a matter mostly of partitioning. On a system with > a small number of spindles, "/usr" was usually the largest disk/partition, > and most users had their home directories there (this tradition continues > with many commercial Unices). > > On a system with a large number of users and spindles, very often > there were multiple root directories used for home directories. For > example there would be a disk mounted as /users1 and it would > have user's home directories of /users1/aaron and /users1/able and > /users1/acton etc., and then there would be a disk mounted as /users2 > and it would have a bunch of home directories on it, etc. > > Other places would mount these as /usr/users1/aaron, /usr/users1/able, > etc., keeping up the tradition of having them under the "/usr" umbrella. > > Sometimes all the disparate spindles were hidden by making links > from a common /usr/users or /users directory to the spindle/directory > where the home directory really resided. This is much nicer if you're > gonna be migrating to larger disks someday. > > Many of the inconvenient things of spindles and mount points we no > longer do if not necessary. I suppose /home is a good point to start > at and then if necessary use link to the actually partition where the > user's home directory resides. > > For some reason, the old way of partitioning unix systems still lives > on although the need for multiple mount points and spindles doesn't > matter much in a world of multi-hundred-Gbyte disks. I suppose > it's like "always make your swap partition twice the size of physical > memory" even though the rationale behind that recommendation was > stale 15 years ago and is much more stale today! > It is actually a reliability/security mechanism to split the system's filesystems over multiple partitions. If you put the user-writable directories in the same spot as critical system things, a runaway user-level process (or just a drive space hog user) that fills the drive is less likely to crash the system by using up space the system needs. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 24 10:12:17 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 08:12:17 -0700 Subject: history of homedirs on unices In-Reply-To: <43354CC0.nailGY2110Z2L@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <433537ED.6010506@brothom.nl> <43354CC0.nailGY2110Z2L@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: At 8:55 AM -0400 9/24/05, Tim Shoppa wrote: >On a system with a large number of users and spindles, very often >there were multiple root directories used for home directories. For >example there would be a disk mounted as /users1 and it would >have user's home directories of /users1/aaron and /users1/able and >/users1/acton etc., and then there would be a disk mounted as /users2 >and it would have a bunch of home directories on it, etc. In large Unix environments this can still be the case. Sure most users have their own Unix box, or share one with a few others, but the home directories are out in NFS. That way people can access their home directory from any system. We typically use /foo/bar/username, and have dozens of home directory disks, spread over dozens of multi-terabyte fileservers. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Sep 24 10:42:37 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 11:42:37 -0400 Subject: Pay-Pal (was: Don't use "BidPay"!!!!) References: <200509231702.j8NH2BXk014156@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050924004418.LLCH1799.tomts40-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> Message-ID: <17205.29677.565000.624289@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "jpero" == jpero writes: >> That said, I have had problems with Pay-Pal transactions, and so >> have people who I know (one whose entire account was "stolen" to >> the tune of thousands of dollars), and, in the end, after some >> hassle and some time, it was all resolved "satisfactorily". jpero> Just in: jpero> Paypal just blasted me warning that "my" paypal account is jpero> closed! What? Closing a pretend account? I don't open paypal jpero> with them, for that reason of this idiocity. I still have jpero> this silly "scary" email from paypal for anyone to check. That wasn't Paypal, that was a phishing attack. paul From vcf at siconic.com Sat Sep 24 10:48:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 08:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OFF-TOPIC DUH!!!! Re: State of the art In-Reply-To: <43348D27.8090207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Sep 2005, woodelf wrote: > Call me a old fart but I still like Analog Radio and real music rather <...> Why the hell did you start a thread on radios on the CLASSIC COMPUTERS mailing list? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Sep 24 11:03:13 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 12:03:13 -0400 Subject: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation References: <4334CDE7.1A27DA12@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <17205.30913.464000.769579@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John C Ellingboe writes: John> Also the following related documentation would be nice to have John> but not all that necessary. John> Postscript Language Tutorial and Cookbook AA-HL86A-TE John> Postscript Language Reference Manual AA-HL87A-TE I don't remember those as DEC publications or DEC part numbers. But those titles sounds like Adobe books from that era, which may still be available for all I know. Oversized paperbacks; the tutorial is blue, the reference manual is red. Very nice books, crucial to have if you want to write your own PostScript. (Then again, you could just learn Forth first, then PostScript can almost be picked up by inspection.) paul From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Sep 24 11:08:20 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 05 16:08:20 GMT Subject: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation Message-ID: <0509241608.AA05234@ivan.Harhan.ORG> John C. Ellingboe wrote: > Postscript Language Tutorial > and Cookbook AA-HL86A-TE > > Postscript Language Reference Manual AA-HL87A-TE These two are about PostScript, not about DEC's specific implementation thereof in the LPS40. They were written by Adobe and published by Addison-Wesley, and are still readily available from places like Amazon Marketplace. In fact I have just ordered my copy of PS LRM 1st ed. last week and received it this week. (I have had the 2nd ed. all my life or at least so it feels, since I've been using PS as my one and only true page description language for longer than I can remember, but I wanted to have the 1st ed. too for completeness - it's been a long time since I've held it in my hands, and PostScript Level 1 brings back nostalgia.) MS From vcf at siconic.com Sat Sep 24 11:09:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 09:09:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Orbis In-Reply-To: <200509240018250221.033CBE81@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Portable Smith Corona word processors used a 2.8" drive that worked the > heads via a follower than ran in a spiral groove molded into a plastic > disk that was driven by the spindle motor through a clutch. Basically, > pulsing the clutch caused the head to move in a continuous spiral > pattern from the beginning of the diskette to the end. Sort of a > windshield-wiper auto-completion mechanism. You could read or write the > entire diskette (about 60K (MFM), if memory serves), but nothing less > than that. A gutless wonder if there ever was one. It was actually pretty > robust. Apple Disk ][ drives used a similar mechanism. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 24 11:24:01 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 09:24:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Head positioners (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050924091233.J8545@shell.lmi.net> > On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Portable Smith Corona word processors used a 2.8" drive that worked the > > heads via a follower than ran in a spiral groove molded into a plastic > > disk that was driven by the spindle motor through a clutch. Basically, > > pulsing the clutch caused the head to move in a continuous spiral > > pattern from the beginning of the diskette to the end. Sort of a > > windshield-wiper auto-completion mechanism. You could read or write the > > entire diskette (about 60K (MFM), if memory serves), but nothing less > > than that. A gutless wonder if there ever was one. It was actually pretty > > robust. On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Apple Disk ][ drives used a similar mechanism. Yes, and no. Shugart SA390 (used for Apple ][ disk drives), and the Shugart SA400 (used in TRS-80 and others) used a spiral groove on a disc for head positioning. (definitiely NOT a helical lead screw as Dick used to claim - only helical lead screw that I saw on 5.25" was Micropolis). It was a real joy when the MPI B51 came out with a split band positioner, and later the Tandons. The Shugart was with a separate stepper turning the cam. I believe that Chuck is referring to a a similar mechanism connected to the SPINDLE motor, resulting in a spiral track! instead of the usual series of concentric circles for tracks. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 24 11:52:11 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 09:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: <200509240018250221.033CBE81@10.0.0.252> References: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <200509240018250221.033CBE81@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20050924092855.E8545@shell.lmi.net> On 9/23/2005, jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > Look for Epson 3.5" drives, they are plastic, have to remove the > metal sleeve to see this black plastic chassis, also the head sevro > is stepper with tiny, tiny fine toothed rack (thin bronze) & prinion > (also tiny dia). Not suitable for heavy use. Although not very solid, Epson was the only 67.5 TPI 3.5" drive that I could ever find. (disk format of Geneva PX-8) On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Portable Smith Corona word processors used a 2.8" drive that worked the > heads via a follower than ran in a spiral groove molded into a plastic > disk that was driven by the spindle motor through a clutch. Basically, > pulsing the clutch caused the head to move in a continuous spiral > pattern from the beginning of the diskette to the end. Sort of a > windshield-wiper auto-completion mechanism. You could read or write the > entire diskette (about 60K (MFM), if memory serves), but nothing less > than that. A gutless wonder if there ever was one. It was actually > pretty robust. I remember about 20 years ago that TEC (NOT TeAc) announced a 2.9" drive with a spiral track. (as well as some 720K 2.9" ones) Is that what they were using? There was also a Weltec 5.25" drive that ran at 180 RPM, in order to do 1.2M with XT at 250K data transfer rate. The Dysan 3.25" was kinda neat. Dysan bet the company that the "shirt pocket" disk (3", 3.25", 3.5", 3.9") that would succeed would be the one with software availability. So, they overextended themselves creating a software publishing/distribution company providing MOST of the big popular software titles on 3.25". 'Course George Morrow said that the solution was to cut a deal with the clothing industry to enlarge shirt pockets to 5.25" or even 8". My favorite weird drive was the Amlyn. It was before the AT came out. It used a "proprietary" 8 bit ISA controller that had a 500K data transfer rate (could also be used for 8"). It used a cartridge that held 5 600 Oersted disks (total of 6M), with a few extra holes punched in corners of the jackets, and could change disks from the cartridge under software control. One of mine is now in Sellam's collection; NO idea where the other one is. And, of course, there was always the Lisa "twiggy". 600 oersted 5.25", with an extra read/write access oval to make sure that EVERY disk got thumbprints on it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Sep 24 11:57:57 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 11:57:57 -0500 Subject: IRIS 3120 Message-ID: <660d096cb5644bb18ca240358c053f02@valleyimplants.com> I can go down and talk to them, but I will probably need to know how to wipe the disk- and I've never used anything older than a 4D SGI. Anybody know what the value of one of these things is? sometimes they want slightly absurd prices ($20 for a stripped 4D/20 Entry), and sometimes it is reasonable- need to know if it fits in the budget From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 24 12:11:59 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 18:11:59 +0100 Subject: Assembling PDF's from images In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20050923091455.49b79bb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20050923112845.331f3e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <433588DF.7090301@yahoo.co.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I know several people here use tools to take a directory of images and > turn them into a PDF. I'm looking for some advice on how to do this. > Ideas on how to do this using either free or commercial software is > fine. I gather that the images will be JPEG (I don't know they are > planning on capturing the images yet, and will try to convince them to > use a loss less format, an option might be TIFF or Nikon RAW). I've always used ImageMagick's convert utility to do this - with a flat directory of images it'd be a single command from the shell. Hooks are provided from all sorts of programming languages if you want to do something much more complicated (as well as providing logging output, which might be important given the context) cheers Jules From tomj at wps.com Sat Sep 24 12:53:39 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 10:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron) In-Reply-To: <20050924092855.E8545@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <200509240018250221.033CBE81@10.0.0.252> <20050924092855.E8545@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050924104154.E965@fiche.wps.com> The oddest floppy drive I ever saw was a Helitron drive, at Helitron Inc, in Boston, when I worked for this little company CSSN, Inc. Helitron was making the wiring harness for a computer CSSN (attempted to) sell. I can't recall the guy's name, but I chatted with him about the drive. He claims that he was the inventor of the basic floppy mechanism (circular media in an envelope mounted temporarily in a frame, etc) and that IBM stole it from him after meeting with them. The drive I saw of his had a knob on front that selected the track! Apparently the drive only read/wrote within a track, and did not electrically select tracks. While I clearly remember the knob, I know or recall nothing else about it. I think it was in a cabinet, more-or-less 8" full size, vertically. Gold anodized? or painted a similar light color. Just a bunch of them sitting on the shelf. This was around 1980, maybe 1979. No idea whatever happened to them. After making the CSSN box (s100, z80, BASF 6172 3-platter disk, Konan controller, DEI tape, Alloy Eng. interface, PDOS, etc), and schlepping the unreliable thing to the first COMDEX (1980?) I never saw them again. tomj Various google searches were weak, but found this address: HELITRON inc. 560 harrison ave boston 02i 18 >From a PDF containing a little ad for them, apparently reduced to calculator sales/repair? I know they had fallen far, the shop was small, a mess, and the guy was sharp, knowledgable, and resentful of how he feels he was treated. www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_095/TECH_V095_S0401_P002.pdf - (Lower left corner, a small ad) From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Sep 24 13:31:15 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 13:31:15 -0500 Subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron) In-Reply-To: <20050924104154.E965@fiche.wps.com> References: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <200509240018250221.033CBE81@10.0.0.252> <20050924092855.E8545@shell.lmi.net> <20050924104154.E965@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <20050924133115.00002319@brass> On Sat, 24 Sep 2005 10:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Tom Jennings wrote: > The oddest floppy drive I ever saw was a Helitron drive, at > Helitron Inc, in Boston, when I worked for this little company > CSSN, Inc. Helitron was making the wiring harness for a computer > CSSN (attempted to) sell. > > I can't recall the guy's name, but I chatted with him about the > drive. He claims that he was the inventor of the basic floppy > mechanism (circular media in an envelope mounted temporarily in a > frame, etc) and that IBM stole it from him after meeting with > them. The drive I saw of his had a knob on front that selected > the track! Apparently the drive only read/wrote within a track, > and did not electrically select tracks. > > While I clearly remember the knob, I know or recall nothing else > about it. I think it was in a cabinet, more-or-less 8" full size, > vertically. Gold anodized? or painted a similar light color. Just > a bunch of them sitting on the shelf. > > This was around 1980, maybe 1979. No idea whatever happened to > them. After making the CSSN box (s100, z80, BASF 6172 3-platter > disk, Konan controller, DEI tape, Alloy Eng. interface, PDOS, > etc), and schlepping the unreliable thing to the first COMDEX > (1980?) I never saw them again. > > tomj > The oddest 'floppy' drive that I ever saw was a dictaphone machine that recorded by cutting helical audio tracks like a phonograph record on a thin 'floppy' plastic disk. Ooops, it wasn't digital (unless you held it in your fingers). > > > Various google searches were weak, but found this address: > > HELITRON inc. > 560 harrison ave > boston 02i 18 > > >From a PDF containing a little ad for them, apparently reduced to > calculator sales/repair? I know they had fallen far, the shop was > small, a mess, and the guy was sharp, knowledgable, and resentful > of how he feels he was treated. > > www-tech.mit.edu/archives/VOL_095/TECH_V095_S0401_P002.pdf - > > (Lower left corner, a small ad) > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 24 13:36:41 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 12:36:41 -0600 Subject: history of homedirs on unices In-Reply-To: <433537ED.6010506@brothom.nl> References: <433537ED.6010506@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <43359CB9.7080500@jetnet.ab.ca> Bert Thomas wrote: > Hi, > > I wonder: nowadays most unices have their homedirectories in /home. > Minix however used to have its homedirectories in /usr. Did "real" > unices used to have the homedirectories their as well? Can someone tell > something about how that evolved? I'm probably to young to know (31). I suspect /home /usr and other large directories were on seperate hard drives on real unix. Minix started from just floppy disks if I remember right. > Bert Ben alias woodelf From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 24 13:45:15 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 11:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron) In-Reply-To: <20050924133115.00002319@brass> References: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <200509240018250221.033CBE81@10.0.0.252> <20050924092855.E8545@shell.lmi.net> <20050924104154.E965@fiche.wps.com> <20050924133115.00002319@brass> Message-ID: <20050924114111.G8545@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > The oddest 'floppy' drive that I ever saw was a dictaphone machine that > recorded by cutting helical audio tracks like a phonograph record on a > thin 'floppy' plastic disk. Ooops, it wasn't digital (unless you held > it in your fingers). grooves "like a phonograph record" would be "SPIRAL", NOT "helical". "Helical" would be like a spiral stair case, or threads on a bolt. Some of the early (Edison?) sound recorders DID cut helical threads on the outside of a cylinder. From vcf at siconic.com Sat Sep 24 14:39:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 12:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SGI 17E21 monitor Message-ID: I have an SGI 17E21 monitor. Unknown working condition, but if it's possible to test it with a PC I'll do so. If it works I'll want $35 plus shipping. Otherwise, it goes for recycling shortly. Please reply direckly. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bpope at wordstock.com Sat Sep 24 16:34:20 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 17:34:20 -0400 (edt) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 25, Issue 42 In-Reply-To: <200509241406.j8OE6uHI015756@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> from "Barry Watzman" at Sep 24, 05 10:06:59 am Message-ID: <200509242134.RAA04172@wordstock.com> And thusly Barry Watzman spake: > > The bottom line here is that if you get an E-Mail from an institution with a > link, you just have to assume it's phony. If you are not sure, do not use > the link, but rather long into the site's HOME PAGE (not the link) manually, > and see if there seems to be a problem. The X-Files said it best... "Trust no one"! Cheers, Bryan From tponsford at theriver.com Sat Sep 24 18:56:33 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 16:56:33 -0700 Subject: HP85 sticky keyboard Message-ID: <4335E7B1.4030407@theriver.com> I just got around to checking out a pretty clean HP-85 I picked up at auction last month. So far it powers up and runs a simple basic program I typed in. I haven't checked out the cassette, although it doesn't look too bad either. The only real issue so far is a sticking keyboard. Before I crack the case and check it out, are there any pointers on fixing the sticky keys, any caveats. Cheers Tom From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 24 17:56:24 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:56:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Orbis In-Reply-To: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Sep 23, 5 09:02:46 pm Message-ID: > Look for Epson 3.5" drives, they are plastic, have to remove the Remind me to keep well away from them... On the other hand I do like the Epson 1/3rd height 5.25" drives, as used in the QX10, etc. They have a voice coil postioner and an optical feedback transducer, like a miniature RK05 :-). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 24 18:08:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 00:08:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation In-Reply-To: <17205.30913.464000.769579@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Sep 24, 5 12:03:13 pm Message-ID: > > >>>>> "John" == John C Ellingboe writes: > > John> Also the following related documentation would be nice to have > John> but not all that necessary. > > John> Postscript Language Tutorial and Cookbook AA-HL86A-TE > > John> Postscript Language Reference Manual AA-HL87A-TE > > I don't remember those as DEC publications or DEC part numbers. But > those titles sounds like Adobe books from that era, which may still be > available for all I know. Oversized paperbacks; the tutorial is blue, > the reference manual is red. Very nice books, crucial to have if you > want to write your own PostScript. There's also 'Postcript Language Program Design', which is green. The first 2 were certainly available a few years ago when I got my first Postscript printer. I found the last one in a second-hand bookshop, I've never seen it new. > > (Then again, you could just learn Forth first, then PostScript can > almost be picked up by inspection.) Well, they're both stack-based languages, but there are significant differences. In general, Forth only lets you push integers onto the stack, Postscript (and RPL) allow you to push various data types. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 24 18:11:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 00:11:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Orbis In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Sep 24, 5 09:09:28 am Message-ID: > > On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Portable Smith Corona word processors used a 2.8" drive that worked the > > heads via a follower than ran in a spiral groove molded into a plastic > > disk that was driven by the spindle motor through a clutch. Basically, > > pulsing the clutch caused the head to move in a continuous spiral > > pattern from the beginning of the diskette to the end. Sort of a > > windshield-wiper auto-completion mechanism. You could read or write the > > entire diskette (about 60K (MFM), if memory serves), but nothing less > > than that. A gutless wonder if there ever was one. It was actually pretty > > robust. > > Apple Disk ][ drives used a similar mechanism. Not really.. The Apple ][ head positioner (which, IIRC, was actually a Shugart design, certainly I've seen it in a non-Apple drive, I think it was a Shugart) had its own stepper motor. You could move the head between tracks under program control. The Smith Corona drive had one motor. It drove the spindle, and moved the head. After each revolution of the disk, the head moved to the next track inwards, when it got to the innermost track, it moved (automatically) back to the outermost one and the sequence started again. The disk was essentially a sequential-access thing, like a tape. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 24 18:16:58 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 00:16:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: <20050924092855.E8545@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 24, 5 09:52:11 am Message-ID: > The Dysan 3.25" was kinda neat. Dysan bet the company that the > "shirt pocket" disk (3", 3.25", 3.5", 3.9") that would succeed I've always felt that the 3" (Hitachi) disk, as used by Amstrad, was mechanically superior to the 3.5" disk... > would be the one with software availability. So, they overextended > themselves creating a software publishing/distribution company > providing MOST of the big popular software titles on 3.25". > 'Course George Morrow said that the solution was to cut a deal with > the clothing industry to enlarge shirt pockets to 5.25" or even 8". FWIW, some Barbour raincoats have inside pockets large enough to take 8" floppies (unfolded, of course). > > > My favorite weird drive was the Amlyn. It was before the AT came out. > It used a "proprietary" 8 bit ISA controller that had a 500K data > transfer rate (could also be used for 8"). It used a cartridge that held > 5 600 Oersted disks (total of 6M), with a few extra holes punched in > corners of the jackets, and could change disks from the cartridge under > software control. One of mine is now in Sellam's collection; NO idea > where the other one is. Somewhere I have another Epson 5.25" drive. It's odd. It's got 2 logic-level cables going to it (i.e. not counting the power cable, which looks conventional), one 34 pin, the other 20 pin. It's in a case about the same size as the Epson TF20 with a controller board and a PSU. The controller has what seems to be an MFM _hard disk_ conteoller chip on it. the interface to the drive looks very much like ST506. I have no idea what it was designed to be used with, I've never seen a disk for it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 24 18:27:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 00:27:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP85 sticky keyboard In-Reply-To: <4335E7B1.4030407@theriver.com> from "tom ponsford" at Sep 24, 5 04:56:33 pm Message-ID: > > I just got around to checking out a pretty clean HP-85 I picked up at > auction last month. So far it powers up and runs a simple basic program > I typed in. > > I haven't checked out the cassette, although it doesn't look too bad > either. The only real issue so far is a sticking keyboard. > Before I crack the case and check it out, are there any pointers on > fixing the sticky keys, any caveats. A handful of points, in no particular order. Firstly, there's a minor 'trap for the unwary' in pulling the cover. Pull off the tape drive eject button first, then remove the screws on the bottom and lift off the case. It's almost impossible to do it with the eject button still in place. When you've got the cover off, you'll see 2 screws behind the keyboard. Remove those, the keyboard then hinges up at the front. Unplug the 2 tapewires from the CPU board (under the keyboard), then unclip the hinges from the base and remove it. The tapewires and hinge brackets come off the keyboard PCB in the obvious way. The keyboard is similar to the one in the original TRS-80 Model 1, the VT100, some other HP stuff, etc. The keycaps pull off easily, the plungers and springs come out (well, the caps-lock one is more of a fiddle...). HP say you shouldn't refit plungers that you've removed, you should fit new ones. I've never had any problems. There is a particularly nasty problem with these keyboards. The plungers split after a time, due to the fact there's the stem of a keyvcap forced into them. They then stick. I hope that's not what's happened to yours... The 'assembly level service manual' for the HP85A is on the MoHPC CD-ROM set. This is acutally not a bad manual, it does include schematics. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 24 19:19:14 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 17:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050924171427.A28392@shell.lmi.net> > > The Dysan 3.25" was kinda neat. Dysan bet the company that the > > "shirt pocket" disk (3", 3.25", 3.5", 3.9") that would succeed > > would be the one with software availability. On Sun, 25 Sep 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > I've always felt that the 3" (Hitachi) disk, as used by Amstrad, was > mechanically superior to the 3.5" disk... Between the 3", 3.25", and 3.5", the 3" does seem to be the best. BUT, THAT isn't what decides what becomes the defacto standard. Dysan thought that it was software availability. Tony seems to think that quality is a factor. But it all finally comes down to what do the BIG companies choose. > FWIW, some Barbour raincoats have inside pockets large enough to take 8" > floppies (unfolded, of course). > Somewhere I have another Epson 5.25" drive. It's odd. It's got 2 > logic-level cables going to it (i.e. not counting the power cable, which > looks conventional), one 34 pin, the other 20 pin. It's in a case about > the same size as the Epson TF20 with a controller board and a PSU. The > controller has what seems to be an MFM _hard disk_ conteoller chip on it. > the interface to the drive looks very much like ST506. From john at guntersville.net Sat Sep 24 19:43:04 2005 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 19:43:04 -0500 Subject: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation References: <4334CDE7.1A27DA12@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <4335F298.216B5D82@guntersville.net> I'm not all that interested in the postscript books except it would be nice to have a full set of applicable docs. The service repair guide is the main one that I need to locate. The host installation and management guides are probably superseded by the newer software provided with the layered products for VMS 7.x so they aren't quite as important. The client installation and management guides could contain information that is hardware specific and would be useful. Since I have never had the privilege to install and set up one of these printers I would rather have plenty of information. I also don't try to maintain a strict museum quality collection but I do like to obtain the applicable documents to go with the equipment that I have. > Printserver 40 Service Repair Guide EK-LPS40-SV > > VAX/VMS Installation Guide: > Printserver 40 Client AA-HL83A-TE > > VAX/VMS Installation Guide: > Printserver 40 Supporting Host AA-HL90A-TE > > VAX/VMS Management/Users Guide: > Printserver 40 Client AA-FP19A-TE > > VAX/VMS Management Guide: > Printserver 40 Supporting Host AA-FP24A-TE From CCTalk at catcorner.org Sat Sep 24 19:58:08 2005 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 20:58:08 -0400 Subject: Looking for a Mac plus keyboard Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799A3366F@mail.catcorner.org> Picked up the main unit (with a 68030 upgrade, 4 meg ram, external SCSI drive) at a local self-store sale. If anyone has a keyboard for these that they're willing to part with let me know. I am willing to pay for it (just not a lot ;-) Shipping would be to New Jersey, USA. Kelly From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 24 20:58:39 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 21:58:39 -0400 Subject: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation Message-ID: <0INC00B8WO4OD7M3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation > From: "John C. Ellingboe" > Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 19:43:04 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >I'm not all that interested in the postscript books except it >would be nice to have a full set of applicable docs. The >service repair guide is the main one that I need to locate. The >host installation and management guides are probably superseded >by the newer software provided with the layered products for VMS >7.x so they aren't quite as important. The client installation >and management guides could contain information that is hardware >specific and would be useful. I have the red green and blue AW postscript books. They were bought under DEC cost center when I began that project. Still refer to them. There were a few of the DOCs on system as help files and readable docs in bookreader format. I'm sure some made it to CD. Also the LPS20 used the same host system software package with the difference for the load image for the printer. The LPS40, 20 and later 32 used a MOP loaded system image for the printer which was uVAX based. >Since I have never had the privilege to install and set up one >of these printers I would rather have plenty of information. I >also don't try to maintain a strict museum quality collection >but I do like to obtain the applicable documents to go with the >equipment that I have. Likely I still remember all of it. I've trained the FS trainers and at one time could rip a LPS40 down the bones and reassemble it. Still have part of the IGRP and HeNe laser from the print engine. My MVII is really an ex MV from an LPS40. I spent from 1983 to 1990 as part of that project along with LN01S LA75, LN03 and a few other printing bits. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 24 11:57:25 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 09:57:25 -0700 Subject: Head positioners (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: <20050924091233.J8545@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050924091233.J8545@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200509240957250339.054ED478@10.0.0.252> On 9/24/2005 at 9:24 AM Fred Cisin wrote: >The Shugart was with a separate stepper turning the cam. >I believe that Chuck is referring to a a similar mechanism connected >to the SPINDLE motor, resulting in a spiral track! instead of the >usual series of concentric circles for tracks. Exactly--once the head was started in motion, it traced a spiral and then returned to home position, all as one single operation--there was no way to stop or pause the positioning--or move the positioner independently of the spindle Very much like a tape drive, if you can visualize a strip of tape laid flat and coiled in a helical shape. Reminds me a bit of those "stringy floppy" units from the 70's with a continuous loop of tape crammed in a housing. The encoding was very simple--MFM with with sync patterns between sectors and 16 bit CRC summing. A contract entailed looking for latent data on a pile of these things, so we worked up an ISA card with a WD9216 data separator and a 2651 USART with some TTL "glue", using the 2651 facility to look for a SYNC double-byte value to find the lead-in to each sector. The bit clock rate was pretty low--perhaps 125 KHz. It was much easier to work up a board than trying to figure out how to use the hardware on the word processor itself to do the work (I think the SCM WP used an 8051-family chip). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 24 12:32:59 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 10:32:59 -0700 Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: <20050924092855.E8545@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <200509240018250221.033CBE81@10.0.0.252> <20050924092855.E8545@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200509241032590929.056F66B5@10.0.0.252> On 9/24/2005 at 9:52 AM Fred Cisin wrote: >Although not very solid, Epson was the only 67.5 TPI 3.5" drive that I >could ever find. (disk format of Geneva PX-8) I believe I still have an original Sony OAD-1 drive (single-sided with head-load solenoid) that was only 40 tracks. And I know I still have a couple of the competing 3.25" floppy drives. >I remember about 20 years ago that TEC (NOT TeAc) announced a >2.9" drive with a spiral track. (as well as some 720K 2.9" ones) >Is that what they were using? Well, I'm holding one of the diskettes in my hand right now--it's labeled 2.8" and has no shutter over the access holes. The hub is a hunk of white plastic (nylon?) about 3/4" in diameter with about a 1/4" center hole and a very small hole for an indexing pin. These are "flippies"--each side has its own write-protect punchout tab. Does this sound like your 2.9" jobs? >There was also a Weltec 5.25" drive that ran at 180 RPM, >in order to do 1.2M with XT at 250K data transfer rate. Ah yes--when it was cheaper to change the drive than the controller! AFAIK, almost all 5.25' 1.2M drives had some sort of dual-speed 300/360 RPM capability under the hood, even if it wasn't publicized. Much like some 3.5" 1.44MB drives today. The NEC approach always appealed to me--the same recording format and data rate across the whole range 8"-5.25"-3.5". >The Dysan 3.25" was kinda neat. Dysan bet the company that the >"shirt pocket" disk (3", 3.25", 3.5", 3.9") that would succeed >would be the one with software availability. So, they overextended >themselves creating a software publishing/distribution company >providing MOST of the big popular software titles on 3.25". >'Course George Morrow said that the solution was to cut a deal with >the clothing industry to enlarge shirt pockets to 5.25" or even 8". I've still got a couple of those drives--labeled "Shugart Venture" when there were two Shugarts--one in the valley and one in the Santa Cruz mountains. Still have a box of Dysan diskettes for them, too--but given the poor protection of the recording medium, the LAST place I'd ever want to put on is in a shirt pocket! >My favorite weird drive was the Amlyn. It was before the AT came out. >It used a "proprietary" 8 bit ISA controller that had a 500K data >transfer rate (could also be used for 8"). It used a cartridge that held >5 600 Oersted disks (total of 6M), with a few extra holes punched in >corners of the jackets, and could change disks from the cartridge under >software control. One of mine is now in Sellam's collection; NO idea >where the other one is. I've only seen one of those--and it may have been at a WCCF--reminded me a bit of the old NCR CRAM. I've got a couple of the Drivetec drives with the dual-motor embedded servo positioning system. One is the original 2.88MB model that was in the Kaypro boxes; the other bears a Kodak nameplate and is a 6MB model. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 24 14:39:53 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 12:39:53 -0700 Subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron) In-Reply-To: <20050924114111.G8545@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <200509240018250221.033CBE81@10.0.0.252> <20050924092855.E8545@shell.lmi.net> <20050924104154.E965@fiche.wps.com> <20050924133115.00002319@brass> <20050924114111.G8545@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200509241239530427.05E395C0@10.0.0.252> On 9/24/2005 at 11:45 AM Fred Cisin wrote: > >grooves "like a phonograph record" would be "SPIRAL", NOT "helical". >"Helical" would be like a spiral stair case, or threads on a bolt. >Some of the early (Edison?) sound recorders DID cut helical threads on the >outside of a cylinder. > I think a little leeway can be granted here--after all, the common garden snail, helix hortensis (whence comes our word "helix") is actually more of a spiral than a helix: http://www.weichtiere.at/Schnecken/galerie/galerie_1024.html And the species of tuba known as a helicon has a distinctly spiral shape: http://www.horncollector.com/Low%20Brass/Helicon/Helicon%201.jpg Perhaps an easy way to remember the difference is that a helix is the shape of a spiral staircase! :) Cheers, Chuck From gcarrick at cse.uta.edu Fri Sep 23 13:10:14 2005 From: gcarrick at cse.uta.edu (A. G. Carrick) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 13:10:14 -0500 Subject: Way Off Topic - was RE: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200509231819.j8NIJpwW025250@keith.ezwind.net> ... > I think I'm going to have to agree with Joe on this, and my > spelling is probably notorious! At least I attempt to use > proper spelling, grammar, and punctuation. I find email from > those that don't bother, or worse, purposefully mangle it, to > be rather painful to read. Actually, I kind of like it in a warped sort of way. When I am asking for applications for a Teaching Assistant who would like to work on the department web site it gives me a very easy way to reject out of hand over half the applicants who can't be bothered to put their best foot forward. Some of the emails read like they were IMing a buddy. No class at al. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From mwelch at redwoodalliance.org Fri Sep 23 13:47:13 2005 From: mwelch at redwoodalliance.org (Michael Welch) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:47:13 -0700 Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.16.20050923091455.49b79bb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20050923112845.331f3e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.2.20050923114125.05cab7a0@mail.redwoodalliance.org> >>>>OK, what is "stuph"? This is the second message that I've seen from you using that term. >>> >>>Say it out loud. :) >> >>I know what it sounds like. I was trying to be tackful but I guess I'll just go ahead and say what I was thinking. It makes the original poster look lazy/immature/ignorant or possible all three. It's not just his repeated use of the (non)word "stuph" but also his grammer, lack of punctuation and capitalization as well as other distorted spellings. Irony abounds. The word you meant is "tactful." Unless, of course, you meant lots of horse harnesses. Yours in Peace, the guy still looking for HP Touchscreen error code explanations From ruszler at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 24 13:21:42 2005 From: ruszler at sbcglobal.net (ruszler at sbcglobal.net) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 11:21:42 -0700 Subject: need drivers/manual for M-Systems PC-FD card Message-ID: <000901c5c134$d1499dd0$0300a8c0@FAMILY> I just ran into your posting on a forum from feb of last year. I do have the manuals you are looking for. With the default settings, you can just pop them into an ISA slot, boot the computer and they will appear as the last HD in your system (under Dos, I've never tried them under windows). format D: /s will make them a bootable drive. I had 6 of them but only 2 are still functional - still using them in some old obsolete Emerald flat touchscreen operator interface systems. They seem to die with age. If you have any that are still alive I'd be interested $$. If you are still interested, I'll send you a pfd copy of the manual - no charge. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 24 21:08:39 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:08:39 -0400 Subject: State of the art -radio Message-ID: <0INC00ARMOLBCRA1@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: State of the art -radio > From: woodelf > Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 00:25:05 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Well add another Crystal -- Filter that is -- :) >I agree that DSP is great for brick wall filters but you might want >to check up on Crystal Sets on the internet because I read a >few people saying that the design of the radios in the past >are based on incorrect theory. Still wouldn't help. there are limits, Good, Fast, Cheap, Pick any two. >> Non-linearity it's bad design for some things but useful where >> efficientcy counts. Look at Class E trannsmitters and switchmode >> power supplies for efficientcy. > >That is only because you need a sine wave out of the transmiter >something that is easy to restore with a tuned circuit. You had better >not look at what I consider a state of the art HI-Fi amp to be, the >one I built from plans I found on the web. A whole 1.25? watts RMS >per channel. I consider it state of the art because 1) It has a >regulated power supply ( Zener diode - 800 volt 6.5 amp FET pass >tranistor ) 2) Single ended ultra-linear ( 50%) operation. >A 6SL7 driver and 6V6GT for the power amp. State of the art in 1969. Pushpull Triode connected 813s, negative feedback to cathode, Zener bias regulation, stiff 1200V ps. Oh flat from 15hz to 20khz -3db to 25khz at a mere 300w. THD was down in the sub 0.05% range. Only weighed in at 80 pounds. In 1974 I worked on a 1KW solidstate that was 40 pounds and could easily beat the specs and overall sound of those 813s and stand shorts or overloads better! >> What you should check out is Softrock, uses the soundard and CPU >> to do the back end stuff and it's frontend is a 29$ kit. >> >> www.amqrp.org/kits/softrock40/index.html (it's sold out but the >> details are there). >> > >But is it open source? I don't like CLOSED equipment or ideas. Did you look, you would not have asked then. > >Some day I might want to break the glass and look inside. >Still if you have the PC it a good use for it, since it >too new to be a classic computer. :) Maybe, today. Then again I was working with 16bit DSP back in '81. Allison From allain at panix.com Sat Sep 24 21:30:15 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:30:15 -0400 Subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron) References: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard><200509240018250221.033CBE81@10.0.0.252><20050924092855.E8545@shell.lmi.net> <20050924104154.E965@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <06c601c5c179$10dc3e00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > He claims that he was the inventor of the basic > floppy mechanism ... This was around 1980, maybe 1979. 69 ~ 70? I mean, by 1980 floppies were down to 5.25" and the 8" had been out well over 5 years. Maybe the guy with the knob drive was lying even harder than you suspected. John A. From john at guntersville.net Sat Sep 24 21:41:42 2005 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 21:41:42 -0500 Subject: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation References: <0INC00B8WO4OD7M3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43360E66.4651178@guntersville.net> Allison wrote: > > > > >Subject: Re: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation > > From: "John C. Ellingboe" > > Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 19:43:04 -0500 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > >I'm not all that interested in the postscript books except it > >would be nice to have a full set of applicable docs. The > >service repair guide is the main one that I need to locate. The > >host installation and management guides are probably superseded > >by the newer software provided with the layered products for VMS > >7.x so they aren't quite as important. The client installation > >and management guides could contain information that is hardware > >specific and would be useful. > > I have the red green and blue AW postscript books. They were > bought under DEC cost center when I began that project. Still > refer to them. > > There were a few of the DOCs on system as help files and readable > docs in bookreader format. I'm sure some made it to CD. Also > the LPS20 used the same host system software package with the > difference for the load image for the printer. The LPS40, 20 > and later 32 used a MOP loaded system image for the printer > which was uVAX based. > > >Since I have never had the privilege to install and set up one > >of these printers I would rather have plenty of information. I > >also don't try to maintain a strict museum quality collection > >but I do like to obtain the applicable documents to go with the > >equipment that I have. > > Likely I still remember all of it. I've trained the FS trainers > and at one time could rip a LPS40 down the bones and reassemble > it. Still have part of the IGRP and HeNe laser from the print > engine. My MVII is really an ex MV from an LPS40. > > I spent from 1983 to 1990 as part of that project along with LN01S > LA75, LN03 and a few other printing bits. > > Allison It sounds like I might have to harass/pester you a bit when I get started setting this beast up. :-) I have used them before and was quite impressed with the speed, quality and dependability. I finally located this one and it didn't get away like some others had so hopefully I can get rid of the little desktop junkers that give me so much trouble. I figured that the help and bookreader files might get me through the host parts but the only thing I have otherwise is the installation and operators guides that were in the pocket inside the door. I would expect to have to do some minor print engine maintenance since it hasn't been used for a while. From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sat Sep 24 21:43:01 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 21:43:01 -0500 Subject: State of the art In-Reply-To: <200509231610570215.017E77EC@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <200509250252.j8P2qYof039268@keith.ezwind.net> For several years Don Lancaster wrote a column in Computer Shopper extolling the virtues of PostScript as a programming language. I didn't have the impression that he was touting the printer as a coprocessor as much as he was pointing out that since ps qualified as a general purpose programming language you could do some amazing things with it inside the printer. Not being heavily into graphics I didn't follow it closely. He was one of the last people I knew of who was an extreme Mac bigot who finally threw in the towel quite a few years back. He had gotten a honking PC of some sort and said somewhat wistfully that his beloved Macs could no longer do anything the PC couldn't. Gil > -----Original Message----- ... > It wasn't just for Macs, was it? Didn't Don Lancaster have > some sort of scheme for running math on any > Postscript-capable printer? > > Cheers, > Chuck ... From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Sep 24 21:54:24 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 19:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: State of the art In-Reply-To: <200509250252.j8P2qYof039268@keith.ezwind.net> from Gil Carrick at "Sep 24, 5 09:43:01 pm" Message-ID: <200509250254.TAA03146@floodgap.com> > He was one of the last people I knew of who was an extreme Mac bigot who > finally threw in the towel quite a few years back. He had gotten a honking > PC of some sort and said somewhat wistfully that his beloved Macs could no > longer do anything the PC couldn't. Inevitably, even inferior technologies catch up at some point. :) *scnr* -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's the car, right? Chicks dig the car. -- "Batman Forever" --------------- From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Sep 24 22:17:11 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:17:11 Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: <6.0.0.22.2.20050923114125.05cab7a0@mail.redwoodalliance.or g> References: <3.0.6.16.20050923091455.49b79bb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20050923112845.331f3e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050924221711.3e8729aa@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:47 AM 9/23/05 -0700, you wrote: > >>>>>OK, what is "stuph"? This is the second message that I've seen from you using that term. >>>> >>>>Say it out loud. :) >>> >>>I know what it sounds like. I was trying to be tackful but I guess I'll just go ahead and say what I was thinking. It makes the original poster look lazy/immature/ignorant or possible all three. It's not just his repeated use of the (non)word "stuph" but also his grammer, lack of punctuation and capitalization as well as other distorted spellings. > >Irony abounds. > >The word you meant is "tactful." Unless, of course, you meant lots of horse harnesses. Like Zane said, my spelling is lousy but I at least make an attempt. Joe From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Sep 24 22:24:57 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:24:57 -0400 Subject: interested in obtaining early workstations In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050924221711.3e8729aa@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050923091455.49b79bb4@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20050923112845.331f3e60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20050924221711.3e8729aa@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <43361889.60502@gmail.com> Joe R. wrote: > At 11:47 AM 9/23/05 -0700, you wrote: > >>>>>>OK, what is "stuph"? This is the second message that I've seen from > > you using that term. > >>>>>Say it out loud. :) >>>> >>>>I know what it sounds like. I was trying to be tackful but I guess I'll > > just go ahead and say what I was thinking. It makes the original poster > look lazy/immature/ignorant or possible all three. It's not just his > repeated use of the (non)word "stuph" but also his grammer, lack of > punctuation and capitalization as well as other distorted spellings. Whenever I look at "stuph", I see "staph". LOL Peace... Sridhar From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Sep 24 22:51:35 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 20:51:35 -0700 Subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron) References: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <200509240018250221.033CBE81@10.0.0.252> <20050924092855.E8545@shell.lmi.net> <20050924104154.E965@fiche.wps.com> <20050924133115.00002319@brass> <20050924114111.G8545@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <43361EC7.3A36A502@cs.ubc.ca> > On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > The oddest 'floppy' drive that I ever saw was a dictaphone machine that > > recorded by cutting helical audio tracks like a phonograph record on a > > thin 'floppy' plastic disk. Ooops, it wasn't digital (unless you held > > it in your fingers). > ... that would be (or describes) the Gray 'Audograph', made by Northern Electric (at least in Canada, perhaps by Western Electric in the US). Circa mid-1940s. The disc is 6.5 in. diameter, holding one reminds one very much of a bare floppy removed from it's envelope: similar weight (floppiness), except it's a translucent deep-blue. (Yes, I do have one (the recorder/player and several blank discs)). Fred Cisin wrote: > > grooves "like a phonograph record" would be "SPIRAL", NOT "helical". > "Helical" would be like a spiral stair case, or threads on a bolt. > Some of the early (Edison?) sound recorders DID cut helical threads on the > outside of a cylinder. > Well, the tracking is performed by a helical-thread drive mechanism :) Actually it's a little unusual in that (in contrast to record players and disc drives) the head/needle is stationary and the disc is moved 'radially' (as well as rotating of course). From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Sep 24 22:56:22 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:56:22 -0400 Subject: State of the art References: <200509250254.TAA03146@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <004201c5c185$17e67ec0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2005 10:54 PM Subject: Re: State of the art > > He was one of the last people I knew of who was an extreme Mac bigot who > > finally threw in the towel quite a few years back. He had gotten a honking > > PC of some sort and said somewhat wistfully that his beloved Macs could no > > longer do anything the PC couldn't. > > Inevitably, even inferior technologies catch up at some point. :) > > *scnr* > What is innovative and special one day is common and cheap the next. Many companies have come up with good ideas and milked them to death before the inevitable market forces make their idea a commodity and force the original company to make another innovation or go out of business. Apple was lucky to have both the Apple II and the Mac line, but they are now known more for an OS and a music player. Commodore was lucky to have both the C64 and the Amiga, but could not come out with anything better and died. To me the Mac lineup pretty much went to hell when they killed off the 68K processors. I honestly only like the era from the Mac II to the 840AV anyway (expansion, large memory capacity, SCSI, multiple monitor support, great sound and AV hardware add-ons, decent OS for the time, etc). From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Sep 24 23:10:09 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:10:09 -0500 Subject: IRIS 3120 (impostor) in Renton (Seattle area) Message-ID: <402a20ecaf2b46b0878bb62b267a2df2@valleyimplants.com> I went down and wound up walking out with the IRIS. It has keyboard, buttons, monitor, cables and appears complete (including Winchester), but is not a 3120, and under intensive interrogation we obtained a signed confession to this and many other unsolved crimes. It's a 2000 of some sort, but in a 3120 case and with a 3000 series keyboard. I'm not sure what the provenance is (some gunk on in, pretty clean and no beasties lurking), or whether the drive is set up fora Turbo 2k/3k system or a 2k (or nothing). ST-506 full-ht. drive but haven't gotten that far inside it yet. It's loaded with bitplanes (8x BP3 boards), but 2 of them do not have the blue interconnect cable attached. Is this correct (are there any members skilled in IRIS lore?) From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Sat Sep 24 23:13:00 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 23:13:00 -0500 Subject: keeping old Winchesters happy Message-ID: This might be a good one for the KB/FAQ (can't remember how to get in, though- no links on the home page) What should be done to keep older drives, especially sealed Winchester-types, happy? I've been spinning up mine every once and a while, but is there anything else? -Scott Quinn From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sun Sep 25 00:35:35 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 07:35:35 +0200 Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis References: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard><200509240018250221.033CBE81@10.0.0.252><20050924092855.E8545@shell.lmi.net> <200509241032590929.056F66B5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <002a01c5c192$f409b4f0$2101a8c0@finans> > AFAIK, almost all 5.25' 1.2M drives had some sort of dual-speed 300/360 RPM capability under the hood, even if it wasn't publicized. Yeah, this "feature" has given me quite some headaches. I use the TEAC FD-235 as the standard in my conversions systems. From new, there were no problems reading PC and AS/400 disks on the same drive, but suddenly it could stop reading PC or AS/400 disks. At last, we found out that the error always occurred on drives assembled or Malaysia or whereever, while the Japanese drives never had that error. A closer inspection showed that the malayan motor was to blame, as it couldnt keep up with the speed changes cheers Nico From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sun Sep 25 00:36:55 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:36:55 -0700 Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic In-Reply-To: <200509240719090423.1C8A6B4C@192.168.42.130> References: <200509240403.j8O4317f029900@keith.ezwind.net> <200509240719090423.1C8A6B4C@192.168.42.130> Message-ID: Bruce, They did use a dual grinder set up with, I think, 8 inch wheels, one a fabric buffer and the other felt? It was about 12 years ago and the people went on to LA to do AT&Ts surplus. Mechanical polishing is common with plastics. It was a quick and dirty process for them. They were refurbing slightly yellowed desk sets cheaply, not sure what plastic it was. I will see if I can chase them down. I sold them lots of telephone stuff in the 90s. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From Tim at Rikers.org Sun Sep 25 00:51:15 2005 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 00:51:15 -0500 Subject: HP TV adapter of some sort In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e9050923184328b2ab6b@mail.gmail.com> References: <007a01c5beb9$a4633740$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4334851B.46C8E0F3@msm.umr.edu> <017b01c5c0a6$e024a810$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <1e1fc3e9050923184328b2ab6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43363AD3.8070604@Rikers.org> Looks like you need 2 cards to get grey scale or limited color and 3 cards to get multi colors. -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Sep 25 02:19:03 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 08:19:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: <200509241032590929.056F66B5@10.0.0.252> References: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <200509240018250221.033CBE81@10.0.0.252> <20050924092855.E8545@shell.lmi.net> <200509241032590929.056F66B5@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <13537.195.212.29.67.1127632743.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > On 9/24/2005 at 9:52 AM Fred Cisin wrote: > Well, I'm holding one of the diskettes in my hand right now--it's labeled > 2.8" and has no shutter over the access holes. The hub is a hunk of white > plastic (nylon?) about 3/4" in diameter with about a 1/4" center hole and > a very small hole for an indexing pin. These are "flippies"--each side > has its own write-protect punchout tab. If I remember correcty, these were used in some musical equipment too - the Korg SQD-1 sequencer and the Akai MD280 disk drive for the S612 sampler. I believe they used more conventional head positioning, but I could easily be wrong. Stupidly I passed up the chance to buy an S612 and MD280 a few years ago, when a music shop near me had one for ?100. They're not fantastic samplers but they were very unusual. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Sep 25 02:25:35 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 08:25:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: References: <20050924092855.E8545@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 24, 5 09:52:11 am Message-ID: <19662.195.212.29.67.1127633135.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> >> The Dysan 3.25" was kinda neat. Dysan bet the company that the >> "shirt pocket" disk (3", 3.25", 3.5", 3.9") that would succeed > > I've always felt that the 3" (Hitachi) disk, as used by Amstrad, was > mechanically superior to the 3.5" disk... ... except when the rubber band wore out. You could often get away with adjusting the tension, but when the belt was gone, it was new drive time. Or was it? Digging through a pile of scrap bought from another shop that had gone bankrupt, I discovered that one of the belts in a Ferguson 3V24 belt kit fitted pretty much perfectly, but was made of slightly thicker rubber. This was in the dim distant mists of 1991, when I used to get about half-a-dozen PCWs with dying floppy drives through the shop every week. Nothing else ever went wrong with them. Ever. After WWIII when we have all perished in nuclear flames, the only living things on Earth will be the cockroaches, and they will be typing up their stories on Amstrad PCW8512s. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Sep 25 02:41:59 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 08:41:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: <13537.195.212.29.67.1127632743.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> References: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <200509240018250221.033CBE81@10.0.0.252> <20050924092855.E8545@shell.lmi.net> <200509241032590929.056F66B5@10.0.0.252> <13537.195.212.29.67.1127632743.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> Message-ID: <31365.195.212.29.83.1127634119.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > If I remember correcty, these were used in some musical equipment too - > the Korg SQD-1 sequencer and the Akai MD280 disk drive for the S612 > sampler. I believe they used more conventional head positioning, but I > could easily be wrong. No, I'm wrong. It seems all the QuickDisk drives used this spiral thing. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Sep 25 02:46:43 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 08:46:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Altos 586 system sold on eBay In-Reply-To: <20050924093016.00000a8e@brass> References: <20050919222552.508122be.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43300E06.7000908@gjcp.net> <20050921195516.425601e5.chenmel@earthlink.net> <4334653C.1070007@gjcp.net> <20050924093016.00000a8e@brass> Message-ID: <35896.195.212.29.83.1127634403.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> > Sounds a little like the Sun 386i, being a non-commodity 386 machine > that runs a 'proprietary' OS. Does anybody know what an Altos 386 was > designed to run? Well, it seems to run some sort of SysV-ish Unix. Unfortunately I can't seem to get the C compiler to, well, compile stuff. I can't remember the exact error because I haven't played for a while. Gordon. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Sep 25 02:56:54 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 03:56:54 -0400 Subject: 11/750 power requirements... In-Reply-To: <13537.195.212.29.67.1127632743.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> References: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <200509240018250221.033CBE81@10.0.0.252> <20050924092855.E8545@shell.lmi.net> <200509241032590929.056F66B5@10.0.0.252> <13537.195.212.29.67.1127632743.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> Message-ID: <43365846.7010401@atarimuseum.com> Hi, I have an 11/750 on its way to my home to be installed in my home office. Just wanted to start site prep'ing. Can the beastie run on 120V @ 20A standard circuit, or will I need to have a 240V circuit run to power it??? Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.6/111 - Release Date: 9/23/2005 From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Sep 25 03:21:27 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 03:21:27 -0500 Subject: 11/750 power requirements... In-Reply-To: <43365846.7010401@atarimuseum.com> References: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <13537.195.212.29.67.1127632743.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> <43365846.7010401@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200509250321.27790.pat@computer-refuge.org> Curt @ Atari Museum declared on Sunday 25 September 2005 02:56 am: > Hi, > > I have an 11/750 on its way to my home to be installed in my home > office. Just wanted to start site prep'ing. Can the beastie run > on 120V @ 20A standard circuit, or will I need to have a 240V circuit > run to power it??? http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/dec/vax/11750/index.html See the section labelled "hardware checkout". Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Sep 25 03:25:59 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 04:25:59 -0400 Subject: 11/750 power requirements... In-Reply-To: <200509250321.27790.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <13537.195.212.29.67.1127632743.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> <43365846.7010401@atarimuseum.com> <200509250321.27790.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <43365F17.1010000@atarimuseum.com> Thanks Patrick! :-) Curt Patrick Finnegan wrote: >Curt @ Atari Museum declared on Sunday 25 September 2005 02:56 am: > > >>Hi, >> >> I have an 11/750 on its way to my home to be installed in my home >>office. Just wanted to start site prep'ing. Can the beastie run >>on 120V @ 20A standard circuit, or will I need to have a 240V circuit >>run to power it??? >> >> > >http://computer-refuge.org/compcollect/dec/vax/11750/index.html > >See the section labelled "hardware checkout". > >Pat > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.6/111 - Release Date: 9/23/2005 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 25 03:19:23 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 01:19:23 -0700 Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: <002a01c5c192$f409b4f0$2101a8c0@finans> References: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> <200509240018250221.033CBE81@10.0.0.252> <20050924092855.E8545@shell.lmi.net> <200509241032590929.056F66B5@10.0.0.252> <002a01c5c192$f409b4f0$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <200509250119230762.089AE9AD@10.0.0.252> On 9/25/2005 at 7:35 AM Nico de Jong wrote: >Yeah, this "feature" has given me quite some headaches. >I use the TEAC FD-235 as the standard in my conversions systems. From new, >there >were no problems reading PC and AS/400 disks on the same drive, but >suddenly it >could stop reading PC or AS/400 disks. >At last, we found out that the error always occurred on drives assembled or >Malaysia or whereever, while the Japanese drives never had that error. A >closer >inspection showed that the malayan motor was to blame, as it couldnt keep >up >with the speed changes I just keep a couple of 235HF's around--one is jumpered to always do 360 rpm and the other isn't. :) I used to think that the HG's were magic, but pretty much the same motor control circuitry is present in both types. So, to get 360 rpm, just remove the 0-ohm resistor at W4 and ground the side that isn't connected to +5. Cheers, Chuck From James at jdfogg.com Sun Sep 25 07:04:23 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 08:04:23 -0400 Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0E57C8@sbs.jdfogg.com> > From your description, it already sounds like I need to > start shopping for a bench grinder. A grinder is way too fast for polishing plastic (unless you mind divots and burns). Though it would be hand-held, you might want to try a buffer first (much slower). From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 25 08:36:18 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 09:36:18 -0400 Subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron) Message-ID: <0IND00A2ZKF8MRW4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Odd floppy drives (Helitron) > From: "John Allain" > Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 22:30:15 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> He claims that he was the inventor of the basic >> floppy mechanism ... This was around 1980, maybe 1979. > >69 ~ 70? >I mean, by 1980 floppies were down to 5.25" and the 8" >had been out well over 5 years. Maybe the guy with the >knob drive was lying even harder than you suspected. > >John A. Definately older than 1974. The oddest I'd seen was Ionovex The mech was about 8" high and about as wide but the media was a web of mylar with oxide and the head spun under it with a variable radius. Strange affair. I got to see it as bare drive but never as part of a system. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 25 08:42:46 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 09:42:46 -0400 Subject: State of the art Message-ID: <0IND001MPKQ0FQC5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: State of the art > From: "Gil Carrick" > Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 21:43:01 -0500 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >For several years Don Lancaster wrote a column in Computer Shopper extolling >the virtues of PostScript as a programming language. I didn't have the >impression that he was touting the printer as a coprocessor as much as he >was pointing out that since ps qualified as a general purpose programming >language you could do some amazing things with it inside the printer. Not >being heavily into graphics I didn't follow it closely. Being close or atleast based on Forth stack language it was fun to use the uVAX in the laps 40 to do things like process and print calculated results. My favorite was a print job that stayed resident and printed pages as 2up as a paper saver. Another like that counted pages used since loading. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 25 08:51:29 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 09:51:29 -0400 Subject: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation Message-ID: <0IND00A1LL4JCN92@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation > From: "John C. Ellingboe" > Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 21:41:42 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >It sounds like I might have to harass/pester you a bit when I >get started setting this beast up. :-) You may just have to. ;) >I have used them before >and was quite impressed with the speed, quality and >dependability. I finally located this one and it didn't get >away like some others had so hopefully I can get rid of the >little desktop junkers that give me so much trouble. I was highly disappointed with the reliability. Anything that could print at 40ppm was likely to see 100-250,000 page month and that machine was good for maybe 100-150k pages between mech failures. >I figured that the help and bookreader files might get me >through the host parts but the only thing I have otherwise is >the installation and operators guides that were in the pocket >inside the door. I would expect to have to do some minor print >engine maintenance since it hasn't been used for a while. You may need to do a bit to get it working if it's been sitting for a long while. One the toner tends to pack or harden if cooked at 110F or higher. The selenium drum may be ok, tough to find if damaged. The worst part is wearout parts such as feed rollers and a few other bits. It would help you to find a few for parts. The other part is my memory os 15years old so there may be some I forgots. I didn't keep much in the way of docs. Allison From john at guntersville.net Sun Sep 25 10:11:14 2005 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 10:11:14 -0500 Subject: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation References: <0IND00A1LL4JCN92@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4336BE12.E0F127C3@guntersville.net> Allison wrote: > > > > >Subject: Re: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation > > From: "John C. Ellingboe" > > Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 21:41:42 -0500 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > >It sounds like I might have to harass/pester you a bit when I > >get started setting this beast up. :-) > > You may just have to. ;) > snip > > I was highly disappointed with the reliability. Anything that > could print at 40ppm was likely to see 100-250,000 page month > and that machine was good for maybe 100-150k pages between mech > failures. > The one I used and was around most was always spewing paper and I didn't see any signs of trouble. I seem to remember them having to have tech service come out one time. It still beats the little junkers all to pieces and it can actually be serviced. I haven't had much luck from the newer laser or ink jet desk top printers so I have been considering an office type color laser even though they are a little bit expensive. > > You may need to do a bit to get it working if it's been sitting for > a long while. One the toner tends to pack or harden if cooked > at 110F or higher. The selenium drum may be ok, tough to find > if damaged. > > The worst part is wearout parts such as feed rollers and a few > other bits. It would help you to find a few for parts. > > The other part is my memory os 15years old so there may be > some I forgots. I didn't keep much in the way of docs. > > Allison It has been in a office environment instead of a warehouse so it shouldn't be too bad. There was a roof leak close by at one time but I see no effects of moisture. I will keep my fingers crossed, rub on my lucky buckeye and hope for the best. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 25 10:53:34 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:53:34 -0400 Subject: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation Message-ID: <0IND0022EQRZCUJ3@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation > From: "John C. Ellingboe" > Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 10:11:14 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >The one I used and was around most was always spewing paper and >I didn't see any signs of trouble. I seem to remember them >having to have tech service come out one time. It still beats >the little junkers all to pieces and it can actually be >serviced. I haven't had much luck from the newer laser or ink >jet desk top printers so I have been considering an office type >color laser even though they are a little bit expensive. I got to monitor the service the performance of all 1500 sold. Most were used at the 200,000 page per month and higher level and FS weren't making money off them. A few machines set records at over 800,000 pages a month and FS were visiting them every two weeks for major work. It's true it was much better than the little ones but when that thing hit around 2 million pages it really wanted a lot of work. At the other extreme it tended to perform poorly if it didn't run regular and the running joke was 45days or 150k page whichever came first. The problem being simple, it was fast was not enough as people wanted/expected print volume to replace Xerox9700s, the other extreme wanted only a few pages but 11x17 printing was appealing. The uVAX however, check the fans and keeps on truckin. A DELQA gives better service but many had DEQNAs that works just fine. >It has been in a office environment instead of a warehouse so it >shouldn't be too bad. There was a roof leak close by at one >time but I see no effects of moisture. I will keep my fingers >crossed, rub on my lucky buckeye and hope for the best. That will help. Allison From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Sep 25 10:55:08 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:55:08 -0400 Subject: State of the art In-Reply-To: <0IND001MPKQ0FQC5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IND001MPKQ0FQC5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4336C85C.nailBG71N7BC9@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > For several years Don Lancaster wrote a column in Computer Shopper > extolling the virtues of PostScript as a programming langauge. In the 80's there were several computer systems that used postscript as the visual display medium. Much nicer than any raster-based description. PDF is superior in drawing/font primitives but it does not qualify as a general purpose programming language at all. SVG (Scalable Vector Graphics) is very interesting right now. It's sort-of like graphics in SGML/XML. And you can embed Javascript to add general-purpose programming. Combined with the web (a couple browsers like Mozilla can be built with native support for SVG and there are plug-ins for browsers that aren't as technically advanced) it's a powerful tool. Tim. From john at guntersville.net Sun Sep 25 11:16:54 2005 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:16:54 -0500 Subject: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation References: <0IND0022EQRZCUJ3@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4336CD76.55FC35B0@guntersville.net> Allison wrote: > > > > >Subject: Re: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation > > From: "John C. Ellingboe" > > Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 10:11:14 -0500 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > >The one I used and was around most was always spewing paper and > >I didn't see any signs of trouble. I seem to remember them > >having to have tech service come out one time. It still beats > >the little junkers all to pieces and it can actually be > >serviced. I haven't had much luck from the newer laser or ink > >jet desk top printers so I have been considering an office type > >color laser even though they are a little bit expensive. > > I got to monitor the service the performance of all 1500 sold. Most > were used at the 200,000 page per month and higher level and FS > weren't making money off them. A few machines set records at over > 800,000 pages a month and FS were visiting them every two weeks > for major work. It's true it was much better than the little > ones but when that thing hit around 2 million pages it really > wanted a lot of work. At the other extreme it tended to perform > poorly if it didn't run regular and the running joke was 45days > or 150k page whichever came first. The problem being simple, > it was fast was not enough as people wanted/expected print volume > to replace Xerox9700s, the other extreme wanted only a few pages > but 11x17 printing was appealing. > I may be in real trouble volume wise then. :-) What kind of service was required on the 45 day schedule? That still equals or beats the modern desk top things after they have been in service a short time though. > > The uVAX however, check the fans and keeps on truckin. A DELQA > gives better service but many had DEQNAs that works just fine. > > >It has been in a office environment instead of a warehouse so it > >shouldn't be too bad. There was a roof leak close by at one > >time but I see no effects of moisture. I will keep my fingers > >crossed, rub on my lucky buckeye and hope for the best. > > That will help. > > Allison From vcf at siconic.com Sun Sep 25 11:48:46 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 09:48:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Orbis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Sep 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Apple Disk ][ drives used a similar mechanism. > > Not really.. The Apple ][ head positioner (which, IIRC, was actually a > Shugart design, certainly I've seen it in a non-Apple drive, I think it > was a Shugart) had its own stepper motor. You could move the head between > tracks under program control. > > The Smith Corona drive had one motor. It drove the spindle, and moved the > head. After each revolution of the disk, the head moved to the next track > inwards, when it got to the innermost track, it moved (automatically) > back to the outermost one and the sequence started again. The disk was > essentially a sequential-access thing, like a tape. The distinction is correct. I should've noted that the head positioning disk with the spiral groove in the Disk ][ mechanism is not driven by the main motor and a clutch, but by its own stepper as you've pointed out. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Sep 25 12:18:25 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 10:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron) In-Reply-To: <0IND00A2ZKF8MRW4@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Sep 2005, Allison wrote: > >> He claims that he was the inventor of the basic > >> floppy mechanism ... This was around 1980, maybe 1979. > > > >69 ~ 70? > >I mean, by 1980 floppies were down to 5.25" and the 8" > >had been out well over 5 years. Maybe the guy with the > >knob drive was lying even harder than you suspected. > > > >John A. > > Definately older than 1974. > > The oddest I'd seen was Ionovex The mech was about 8" high and about as wide > but the media was a web of mylar with oxide and the head spun under it with > a variable radius. Strange affair. I got to see it as bare drive but never > as part of a system. Alan Shugart is regarded as the inventor of the "floppy" disk in 1971 at IBM. So unless Al comes forward with a confession, this guy's story will need a lot more details than just off-hand ramblings. I've seen this kind of thing a lot: one person claims that they invented somesuch and that some company came by, checked it out, wished them well, then went off and stole the technology. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Sep 25 12:45:23 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 12:45:23 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 Software Boxes Message-ID: <20050925124523.000060ac@brass> At a garage sale recently I bought what I thought was a 'complete with software' Commodore 64 system. When I got it home (two printers, two disk drives, C64 system, cables, etc.) I discovered that all the colorful printed software boxes were EMPTY. Well, some have inserts and what-not, but there was not a SINGLE diskette with software in any of it. Someone obviously grabbed the disks to use for some other purpose, or they were all in a case that was lost or thrown away. Anyhow, I am going on the notion that there are probably Commodore collectors who would like to get these boxes anyways. There are a mixture of different boxes for various things, games and what-not. It will be relatively inexpensive to ship them since it's all empty boxes. First respondent who shows interested in these gets them for the cost of shipping. Scott From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sun Sep 25 12:51:40 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (birs23 at zeelandnet.nl) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 19:51:40 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Manuals 3 + some other stuff Message-ID: <35057.127.0.0.1.1127670700.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Some more stuff dug up :-) Everything will go for best offer starting at shipping costs only Manuals : - Atari 520ST Owner's Manual 1985 (has some parts marked) - Canon BJ-130e Programmer's Manual 1989 - Canon BJ-130e User's Manual 1989 - Commodore 1531 Datassette User's Guide 1984 - Commodore 1541 Disk Drive User's Guide 1982 - Commodore 64 MicroComputer User Manual (binder version with blue and white stripes and various colours 64) 1984 - Dataproducts B-Series 300LPM/600LPM Operator's Guide (wang used these) - Dataproducts SPG8020-1/2 Owner's Manual 1985 - Mannesmann Tally MT93/94 Applications Manual 1991 - Mannesmann Tally MT93/94 Operator's manual 1990 (has some writing on the first page) - Philips PP 402 Owner's Manual 1990 (has some writing on the cover) - Sinclair ZX Spectrum 128 Introduction 1986 - Sinclair ZX Spectrum Microdrive and Interface 1 Manual 1983 (has some writing on the last, blank, page) - Sinclair ZX Spectrum+ User Guide - Various Auto-trol Technology Series 7000 manuals Other stuff : - Digital CDD/REP V/V V5.0 UPD 16MT9 (includes everything except the "VAX CDD/PLUS INSTL GDE") - Digital CDD/REPOS V5.1 V/V UPD 16MT9 - Novell Advanced Netware 296 Operating System Kit (opened box but otherwise very little touched, everything including keycard (hardware) is included) Thats all folks for now :-) Stefan. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 25 13:30:21 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 14:30:21 -0400 Subject: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation Message-ID: <0IND009WEY18G9Y5@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Quest for DEC LPS-40 Documentation > From: "John C. Ellingboe" > Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 11:16:54 -0500 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >I may be in real trouble volume wise then. :-) What kind of >service was required on the 45 day schedule? That still equals >or beats the modern desk top things after they have been in >service a short time though. Toner system clogs, sticking cleaning blade, developer unit problems, drum(photoreceptor) issues, paper handling. But the bulk issues were print quality related. At a bare minimum before using I'd pull the cleaning unit and developer unit and thoughly clean both, inspect the drum for surface damage and make sure the cleaning blade is good condition. Then I'd inspect the corona assemblies and lamps for operation. Allison From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Sep 25 13:29:46 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 14:29:46 -0400 Subject: HP TV adapter of some sort References: <007a01c5beb9$a4633740$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP><4334851B.46C8E0F3@msm.umr.edu><017b01c5c0a6$e024a810$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <1e1fc3e9050923184328b2ab6b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001d01c5c1ff$1c632cd0$0100a8c0@screamer> These boards are very easy to drive from a software perspective. They even take the same X/Y point-plot data format that is used by the 12555A dual D/A converter boards. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 9:43 PM Subject: Re: HP TV adapter of some sort > On 9/23/05, Jay West wrote: >> >> I had a fair number (maybe around 8) of these tv interface cards for the >> 21MX machines. I think I gave most if not all of them to Bob Shannon, >> didn't >> figure I'd ever want one. I have the datasheet on them somewhere.... >> > > Seems like it would be an interesting interface. I wouldn't mind > having one to add a bitmap display to my HP 1000. Might try to grab > one of these. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/interfaces/91200-90001_TVintfSvc_Nov76.pdf > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/interfaces/91200-90005_TVintfDvr_Nov79.pdf > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/interfaces/91200-90006_TVintfPgm_Apr77.pdf > > From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Sep 25 13:32:03 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 14:32:03 -0400 Subject: HP TV adapter of some sort References: <007a01c5beb9$a4633740$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4334851B.46C8E0F3@msm.umr.edu> <017b01c5c0a6$e024a810$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP><1e1fc3e9050923184328b2ab6b@mail.gmail.com> <43363AD3.8070604@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <002301c5c1ff$6dba8a10$0100a8c0@screamer> Correct, but a single card will give you a black and white bit-map. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Riker" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2005 1:51 AM Subject: Re: HP TV adapter of some sort > Looks like you need 2 cards to get grey scale or limited color and 3 cards > to get multi colors. > -- > Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org > Embedded Linux Technologist > BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! > From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Sep 25 13:55:53 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 13:55:53 -0500 Subject: Misc Apple Drive Sleds- free for shipping. Message-ID: <20050925135553.00007fe5@brass> It's cleaning-up weekend here. I have a medium-sized box of Apple drive sleds to give away. These are the slide-in plastic parts under the drive, that I've salvaved over the years. I'm not doing much anymore with 'beige box' Macintoshes but thought maybe somebody else could put them to use. There are 3-1/2" and 5-1/4" (CDROM) sleds included, from a variety of Macs. Mostly 7200/7300/7500 desktop cases. They're in a USPS Priority Mail shipping box right now and anybody who wants them can have them for the cost of Priority Mail (so I don't have to rebox them) shipping from zipcode 46131. The box weighs aprox. 8.5 pounds. As always, first serious respondent gets them. Scott From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Sep 25 13:57:32 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 13:57:32 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64 Software Boxes In-Reply-To: <20050925124523.000060ac@brass> References: <20050925124523.000060ac@brass> Message-ID: <20050925135732.00002cdc@brass> *whoosh* The software boxes appear to be claimed. From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Sep 25 16:24:07 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 22:24:07 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebay Message-ID: <26c11a64050925142436174447@mail.gmail.com> Anyone interested in this ? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5270170547 Nothing to do with me . Dan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Sep 25 17:00:41 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 23:00:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: 480z system disk on ebay In-Reply-To: <26c11a64050925142436174447@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a64050925142436174447@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49211.82.152.112.73.1127685641.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Anyone interested in this ? > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5270170547 I would be if a) my 480z worked and b) I had a floppy drive for it :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 25 16:22:50 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 22:22:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: <20050924171427.A28392@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 24, 5 05:19:14 pm Message-ID: > Between the 3", 3.25", and 3.5", the 3" does seem to be the best. > BUT, THAT isn't what decides what becomes the defacto standard. > Dysan thought that it was software availability. > Tony seems to think that quality is a factor. I think you misunderstood me. What matters _to me_ is the (design) quality. I've long since realised that's generally a reason for something to be non-successful. After all, the IBM PC caught on, as did VHS (in the latter case, the Philips V2000 system was better designed and better built). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 25 16:31:30 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 22:31:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron) In-Reply-To: <43361EC7.3A36A502@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Sep 24, 5 08:51:35 pm Message-ID: > > > > On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > The oddest 'floppy' drive that I ever saw was a dictaphone machine that > > > recorded by cutting helical audio tracks like a phonograph record on a > > > thin 'floppy' plastic disk. Ooops, it wasn't digital (unless you held > > > it in your fingers). > > > > ... that would be (or describes) the Gray 'Audograph', made by Northern > Electric (at least in Canada, perhaps by Western Electric in the US). Somewhere I have a similar dictating machine made by (badged?) Olympia IIRC. I've not got any disks for it, but it's obviuos from the design, that the disk had a groove in it to guide the magnetic head. There's a slot in the front where you slide the disk in. It goes onto a turntable. There's an arm, a bit like the tone arm of a record player that carries the head, and which can be moved by a lever on the front. When it's locked in the rest position, it lifts the disk clamp off the turntable so that the disk can be inserted or removed. A couple of solenoids engagee either a slow forward drive (record/play) or a fast reverse drive ('rewind'). A button on the front engages the fast drive and lowers a magnet onto the disk for 'bulk erase'. Most of the functions are remote cotnroller. The microphone has a 4 postion slide switch (record, stop, play, rewind in that order IIRC). Playback is either through the (moving coil) microphone transducer or via a little speaker in the unit. There was also a footswitch that had pedals for rewind and play, presumably for transcribing the recoridng on a typewriter. You could also obviously connect headphones, I don't have them. One odd feature is that the 2-valve amplifier has a tone control. I can't really see the point... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 25 16:34:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 22:34:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: <200509241032590929.056F66B5@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 24, 5 10:32:59 am Message-ID: > Ah yes--when it was cheaper to change the drive than the controller! > AFAIK, almost all 5.25' 1.2M drives had some sort of dual-speed 300/360 > RPM capability under the hood, even if it wasn't publicized. Much like > some 3.5" 1.44MB drives today. > Since both 720K and 1.44M 3.5" disks (on a PC) rotate at 300 rpm, I am trying to figure out why you'd want a 360rpm 3.5" drive. I've never seen one... (600 rpm is another matter...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 25 16:39:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 22:39:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: <19662.195.212.29.67.1127633135.squirrel@mail.gjcp.net> from "gordonjcp@gjcp.net" at Sep 25, 5 08:25:35 am Message-ID: > > >> The Dysan 3.25" was kinda neat. Dysan bet the company that the > >> "shirt pocket" disk (3", 3.25", 3.5", 3.9") that would succeed > > > > I've always felt that the 3" (Hitachi) disk, as used by Amstrad, was > > mechanically superior to the 3.5" disk... I was refering to the disk design, bot the drive here. The 3.5" disk shutter is a very poor design IMHO and one that's caused me a fair amount of dismantling over the years to remove shutters stuck in drives. > > ... except when the rubber band wore out. You could often get away with I don't know who made the Amstrad 3" drives, but the Hitachi ones I have (and have the service manual for) have a direct-drive spindle motor. No rubber driver beld. > adjusting the tension, but when the belt was gone, it was new drive time. > Or was it? Digging through a pile of scrap bought from another shop that I thought at least one of the Amstrad service manuals gave a part number for the belt. > Nothing else ever went wrong with them. Ever. After WWIII when we have > all perished in nuclear flames, the only living things on Earth will be > the cockroaches, and they will be typing up their stories on Amstrad > PCW8512s. ALthough the later daisywheel printer version suffers from a cracked print hammer armature quite often. The printer seems to work, but nothing appears on the paper. I still have the service manuals for the 3 main types of PCWs. But I suspect most, if not all, spares are now unobtainium -tony From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Sep 25 18:30:00 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 00:30:00 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebay In-Reply-To: <49211.82.152.112.73.1127685641.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <26c11a64050925142436174447@mail.gmail.com> <49211.82.152.112.73.1127685641.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <26c11a640509251630b893394@mail.gmail.com> On 25/09/05, Witchy wrote: > > > Anyone interested in this ? > > > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5270170547 > > I would be if a) my 480z worked and b) I had a floppy drive for it :) > > -- > adrian/witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? > I've been trying to get hold of one of these and a 380z for ages, they seem to be quite scarce now. Unless I'm looking in the wrong places. Dan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Sep 25 19:37:17 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 01:37:17 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebay In-Reply-To: <26c11a640509251630b893394@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a64050925142436174447@mail.gmail.com> <49211.82.152.112.73.1127685641.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <26c11a640509251630b893394@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <433742BD.3010902@yahoo.co.uk> Dan Williams wrote: > On 25/09/05, Witchy wrote: > >>>Anyone interested in this ? >>> >>>http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5270170547 >> >>I would be if a) my 480z worked and b) I had a floppy drive for it :) >> >>-- >>adrian/witchy >>Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator >>www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? >> > > I've been trying to get hold of one of these and a 380z for ages, they > seem to be quite scarce now. Unless I'm looking in the wrong places. Disk hardware for a 480Z seems to be extremely rare. It appaears that RML wanted people to really use the 480Z with cassette units, and floppy was really only for a shared disk system on a network - so whilst finding a 380Z is pretty difficult, finding a disk unit for a 480Z is an order of magnitude harder. Having said that, I haven't heard of any available 480Z's for a few years now - they seem to have vanished (surprising, given that they must have been *reasonably* common in schools at one point - did RML offer trade-ins for Nimbus hardware and then crush all the 480Zs or something?) I've put a message out to the museum folks to see if they can rescue this disk; I don't think we have the welcome one... cheers Jules From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Sep 25 21:01:40 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 21:01:40 Subject: Paravant RLT-88 computer? Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050925210140.0fa7d084@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Anyone have any information about this computer? It's a small RUGGED laptop. It's even beefier than the Grids. Here's a bit of general info about them but I'd like more specific info on the model RLT-88. Joe From gilcarrick at comcast.net Sun Sep 25 20:33:11 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:33:11 -0500 Subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200509260142.j8Q1gibE048704@keith.ezwind.net> > I've seen this kind of thing a lot: one person claims that > they invented somesuch and that some company came by, checked > it out, wished them well, then went off and stole the technology. > ... > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival ... I suspect that it happened in some cases. The problem is that the claimant needs to provide some evidence to back up the claim. Gil From spc at conman.org Sun Sep 25 23:57:25 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 00:57:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Sep 25, 2005 10:22:50 PM Message-ID: <20050926045725.CA39B73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > Between the 3", 3.25", and 3.5", the 3" does seem to be the best. > > BUT, THAT isn't what decides what becomes the defacto standard. > > Dysan thought that it was software availability. > > Tony seems to think that quality is a factor. > > I think you misunderstood me. What matters _to me_ is the (design) > quality. I've long since realised that's generally a reason for something > to be non-successful. After all, the IBM PC caught on, as did VHS (in the > latter case, the Philips V2000 system was better designed and better built). If you're talking about VHS and Beta, I suspect that VHS won because the licensor allowed the adult movie industry (read: porn) to make VHS tapes while Sony (holders of the Beta format) did not license their technology to the adult movie industry (read: porn). Now, in reguards to that, the PC had four things going for it: 1) I 2) B 3) M 4) cheap to license. I also seem to recall that IBM wanted too much money to license MCA so the industry just ignored that. -spc (Now, had IBM licenced MCA to the adult industry (read: porn) it might still be a viable contender today 8-P From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 25 03:39:27 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 01:39:27 -0700 Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic In-Reply-To: References: <200509240403.j8O4317f029900@keith.ezwind.net> <200509240719090423.1C8A6B4C@192.168.42.130> Message-ID: <200509250139270523.08AD47A2@10.0.0.252> On 9/24/2005 at 10:36 PM Paxton Hoag wrote: >They did use a dual grinder set up with, I think, 8 inch wheels, one a >fabric buffer and the other felt? It was about 12 years ago and the people >went on to LA to do AT&Ts surplus. > >Mechanical polishing is common with plastics. > >It was a quick and dirty process for them. They were refurbing slightly >yellowed desk sets cheaply, not sure what plastic it was. When you find out how to polish HDPE, please post the method ot the list. Most telephone desk sets are made of a very different polymer (ABS? polycarbonate? ). For a good example of HDPE, you need go no further than your wastebasket or garbage can--or the liner bag in a box of corn flakes. I've tried to mechanically polish the stuff, but it's soft and any abrasive is easily embedded in the surface and it tends to get "stringy" if it gets warm under the buffing wheel. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 25 19:19:12 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 17:19:12 -0700 Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200509251719120031.0C099F9F@10.0.0.252> On 9/25/2005 at 10:34 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Since both 720K and 1.44M 3.5" disks (on a PC) rotate at 300 rpm, I am >trying to figure out why you'd want a 360rpm 3.5" drive. I've never seen >one... > >(600 rpm is another matter...) You've obviously never run into a NEC 9800 PC (or just about any other version of Japanese MS-DOS) diskette. 77 cylinders of 5x1024 sectors, spinning at 360 RPM, just like an 8" drive. Most USB drives understand this format automatically. Cheers, Chuck From trag at io.com Sun Sep 25 20:59:02 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 20:59:02 -0500 Subject: SIMM, Address Lines Order? In-Reply-To: <200509250619.j8P6JpHp035015@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509250619.j8P6JpHp035015@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: When connecting DRAM chips to the pins of a SIMM (i.e. laying out the traces) does it matter if the order of the address and data lines is preserved? In other words, does A0 on the SIMM need to connect to A0 on the chip, and A0 on all the other chips as well? These are old DRAM, such as FPM or EDO, used in 30 pin SIMMs. Nothing new and fancy like SDRAM. I believe the answer is no. But I know from experience that there are sometimes odd scenarios that are easily overlooked, so I figured I'd access the shared experience and knowledge here. It's a lot easier to layout the PCB for the SIMMs, if I don't preserve order. And it shouldn't matter, because anything that gets stored at address X should come back out on a read to address X. The only circumstance I can think of that could cause a problem is if the RAM has some kind of sequential read mode where consequeutive addresses are expected. Reading the datasheet, I don't see a mode like that. The closest thing is a burst mode where the Row address stays constant and a series of Column addresses are supplied, but that should work just fine, I think. So, any gotchas to disordering the address and data pins between the SIMM, and the chips and from chip to chip? Jeff Walther From vcf at siconic.com Mon Sep 26 01:16:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2005 23:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron) In-Reply-To: <200509260142.j8Q1gibE048704@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Sep 2005, Gil Carrick wrote: > > I've seen this kind of thing a lot: one person claims that > > they invented somesuch and that some company came by, checked > > it out, wished them well, then went off and stole the technology. > > > ... > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > > Computer Festival > ... > > I suspect that it happened in some cases. The problem is that the claimant > needs to provide some evidence to back up the claim. For certain. I've heard plenty of stories of people getting screwed out of their ideas. In most cases it's their fault, either for being naive or for being careless. The problem usually is that they don't have anything other than their recollection to back up their claim. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From GOOI at oce.nl Mon Sep 26 01:40:23 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 08:40:23 +0200 Subject: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1EC6@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi, I cleaned the dust out of a small 4 slot card cage with the power supply at the right side. I was never good at naming the BA box types, so here is the description. When you look at the front side, the 4 slots are at the left side, and the PSU is at the right side and has at the front 3 switches (DC on/off, enable/halt, and LTC on/off) and 2 LEDs (DC on and run). The following cards are installed (I have not yet powered up this unit). <------ M7270 ------> <------ M8044 ------> ================== <------ empty ------> <------ M7940 ------> | o o __ __ __ | <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> | ~~ ~~ ~~ | <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> ================== I have 2 questions from this system. 1) As I am not that familiar with QBUS, are the cards in the correct slot? 2) The M8044 says on the handle "M8044-DK" but on the board is in the etch "M8045" and "16KW x 18 BIT" (IIRC that last part). Strange or common ? An other thing is the following. I also have a M7264. This board is quad sized, but has 4 kW memory on the CPU board. The M7270 is dual sized (with no RAM). Can I remove the M7270 and M8044 and put the M7264 instead in the above rack? The reason for this swap is that I hoipe one day to add a M8018 (WCS), and as far as I know, the WCS option does not work with the M7270, but only with the M7264. Is this correct? And *if* the M7264 is installed, can I then move the M7940 to the left in the same slot and put in the open space the M8044? A lot of questions ... I am really into UNIBUS machines, but this small system is too cute to put away! thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Sep 26 01:41:32 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 02:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SIMM, Address Lines Order? In-Reply-To: References: <200509250619.j8P6JpHp035015@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200509260642.CAA18718@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > When connecting DRAM chips to the pins of a SIMM (i.e. laying out the > traces) does it matter if the order of the address and data lines is > preserved? [...] What about refreshes? (This is a question, not a challenge; I do not know enough about how dynamic RAM refresh works to know whether this really is relevant. But it seems to me that it might be.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Sep 26 05:58:38 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 11:58:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 In-Reply-To: "Gooijen, Henk" "difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270" (Sep 26, 8:40) References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1EC6@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <10509261158.ZM17586@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 26 2005, 8:40, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > I cleaned the dust out of a small 4 slot card cage with the power supply > at the right side. I was never good at naming the BA box types, so here is > the description. When you look at the front side, the 4 slots are at the > left side, and the PSU is at the right side and has at the front 3 switches > (DC on/off, enable/halt, and LTC on/off) and 2 LEDs (DC on and run). > The following cards are installed (I have not yet powered up this unit). Sounds like the innards of a BA11-M, especially given the boards you have. Check the number on the backplane, it should be a H9270, which is an 18-bit serpentine backplane. > <------ M7270 ------> <------ M8044 ------> ================== > <------ empty ------> <------ M7940 ------> | o o __ __ __ | > <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> | ~~ ~~ ~~ | > <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> ================== > > I have 2 questions from this system. > 1) As I am not that familiar with QBUS, are the cards in the correct slot? Usually you draw the boards positions as seen from the rear (from the handles). Is the M7270 to the left of the M8044 when seen from that direction? It should be. What you've drawn is correct for the view from the handles. > 2) The M8044 says on the handle "M8044-DK" but on the board is in the etch > "M8045" and "16KW x 18 BIT" (IIRC that last part). Strange or common ? M8045 and M8044 are the same board but the 8045 has extra RAM for parity and a few extra components fitted to enable it. 8044 is MSV11-D (non-parity) and 8045 is MSV11-E (parity). What you have is not at all unusual. > An other thing is the following. I also have a M7264. This board is quad > sized, > but has 4 kW memory on the CPU board. The M7270 is dual sized (with no RAM). > Can I remove the M7270 and M8044 and put the M7264 instead in the above > rack? Yes, but you may need to alter a few things, starting with the memory. If your M7264 has 4KW/8KB memory on it, you'll either need to change the start address of the MSV11-D, to be at 020000(8) (= 8192 decimal), or disable the memory on the M7264. These processors can only address 64KB of memory, so if your MSV11 has much memory on it, you might want to disable the 8KB on the processor. If you do, you'll need to disable some other things to do with refresh and BRPLY -- the M7264 produces a refresh signal which you don't want on the bus, and responds to refreshes and memory accesses on the bus. The MSV11-D/E are available with 4K or 16K DRAMs, and either half- or fully-populated, hence they can be any of 8KB, 16KB, 32KB, or 64KB, known as MSV11-DA, -DB, DC, DD. The second letter on the handle, however, is different -- it tells you where the chips came from, not the size. > The reason for this swap is that I hoipe one day to add a M8018 (WCS), and > as far as I know, the WCS option does not work with the M7270, but only with > the M7264. Is this correct? Dunno. As far as I know, it just plugs into one of the MICROM sockets, where the KEV11 (EIS/FIS upgrade would go), so it may work on any version of the 11/03. If it's specific to one, it may be that it works on a KD11-J (M7264-YA, without memory) but not a KD11-F (M7264, with 4KW memory) because they are different board layouts. Or, more likely, vice versa. > And *if* the M7264 is installed, can I then move the M7940 to the left in > the > same slot and put in the open space the M8044? Yes, that would be best. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From GOOI at oce.nl Mon Sep 26 06:42:48 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:42:48 +0200 Subject: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1ECA@gd-mail03.oce.nl> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: maandag 26 september 2005 12:59 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 > > On Sep 26 2005, 8:40, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > > I cleaned the dust out of a small 4 slot card cage with the power > > supply at the right side. I was never good at naming the BA box types, so > > here is the description. When you look at the front side, the 4 slots are > > at the left side, and the PSU is at the right side and has at the front 3 > > switches (DC on/off, enable/halt, and LTC on/off) and 2 LEDs (DC on and run). > > The following cards are installed (I have not yet powered up this unit). > > Sounds like the innards of a BA11-M, especially given the > boards you have. Check the number on the backplane, it > should be a H9270, which is an 18-bit serpentine backplane. > > > <------ M7270 ------> <------ M8044 ------> ================== > > <------ empty ------> <------ M7940 ------> | o o __ __ __ | > > <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> | ~~ ~~ ~~ | > > <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> ================== > > > > I have 2 questions from this system. > > 1) As I am not that familiar with QBUS, are the cards in the correct > > slot? > > Usually you draw the boards positions as seen from the rear > (from the handles). Is the M7270 to the left of the M8044 > when seen from that direction? It should be. What you've > drawn is correct for the view from the handles. > > > 2) The M8044 says on the handle "M8044-DK" but on the board > > is in the etch "M8045" and "16KW x 18 BIT" (IIRC that last part). > > Strange or common ? > > M8045 and M8044 are the same board but the 8045 has extra RAM > for parity and a few extra components fitted to enable it. > 8044 is MSV11-D (non-parity) and 8045 is MSV11-E (parity). > What you have is not at all unusual. > > > An other thing is the following. I also have a M7264. This board is > > quad sized, but has 4 kW memory on the CPU board. The M7270 is dual > > sized (with no RAM). > > Can I remove the M7270 and M8044 and put the M7264 instead in the > > above rack? > > Yes, but you may need to alter a few things, starting with the memory. > If your M7264 has 4KW/8KB memory on it, you'll either need to change > the start address of the MSV11-D, to be at 020000(8) (= 8192 decimal), > or disable the memory on the M7264. These processors can only address > 64KB of memory, so if your MSV11 has much memory on it, you might want > to disable the 8KB on the processor. If you do, you'll need to disable > some other things to do with refresh and BRPLY -- the M7264 produces > a refresh signal which you don't want on the bus, and responds to > refreshes and memory accesses on the bus. > > The MSV11-D/E are available with 4K or 16K DRAMs, and either > half- or fully-populated, hence they can be any of 8KB, 16KB, > 32KB, or 64KB, known as MSV11-DA, -DB, DC, DD. The second > letter on the handle, however, is different -- it tells you > where the chips came from, not the size. > > > The reason for this swap is that I hoipe one day to add a M8018 > > (WCS), and as far as I know, the WCS option does not work with the > > M7270, but only with the M7264. Is this correct? > > Dunno. As far as I know, it just plugs into one of the MICROM > sockets, where the KEV11 (EIS/FIS upgrade would go), so it may work > on any version of the 11/03. If it's specific to one, it may be > that it works on a KD11-J (M7264-YA, without memory) but not a > KD11-F (M7264, with 4KW memory) because they are different board > layouts. Or, more likely, vice versa. > > > And *if* the M7264 is installed, can I then move the M7940 to the > > left in the same slot and put in the open space the M8044? > > Yes, that would be best. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York Thanks Pete. I had a look at the backplane yesterday, but did not see an Hxxxx number. There was a xx-yyyyy (?) digit number, but I will check again this evening. <------ M7270 ------> <------ M8044 ------> ================== <------ empty ------> <------ M7940 ------> | o o __ __ __ | <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> | ~~ ~~ ~~ | <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> ================== The figure is as seen from the front side when the front cover is removed. The "art work" shows the panel with the switches and LEDs at the right. To remove a board from the cage you must pull the board "out of the screen", so the magenta handles are at the front side. The FieldGuide says that a few lines are used for something else, but I expect (hope) that the M7270 and the M7264 usage of all connections is identical. It makes perfect sense that I will have to adjust the base address of the memory on the M8044 if I install the M7264. I will take an other look at the memory board with the new information from you. I will dig up the MicroNotes! It will be interesting to see what the system does when I power it up. The console is connected to the M7940 ... I hope to see a prompt! Regarding the M8018 WCS option: is this "just" a chip, like FIS or the big CIS one? I thought it was a board (module) as the M number suggests. Anybody here has a M8018 WCS and can tell more about it? thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP. From GOOI at oce.nl Mon Sep 26 06:54:01 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:54:01 +0200 Subject: seeking connection cable for RK07 drive Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1ECB@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi all, I finally got to set up my PDP-11/34C with TU80 and two RK07 drives. Given the space in my "museum", the RK07 drives are not immediately next to the 11/34 rack. I am looking for an RK07 cable, part number 70-12292-25 or 70-12292-40 (25 or 40 foot length). The cable *looks* like the RL01/RL02 cable, but is not identical ! You can use the RK06/RK07 cable with RL01/RL02 drives, but not the other way around, because the RK06/RK07 cable has a few extra pins actually connected (which the RL drives does not need). That's what I've heard long ago ... If you have a 70-12292-25 or 70-12292-40 and no longer need it, I will gladly pay or trade for it. See my website (www.pdp-11.nl) for the "spare boards" list, although it is not up-to-date / correct. TIA, - Henk, PA8PDP. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 26 07:59:12 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 08:59:12 -0400 Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: <20050926045725.CA39B73029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050926045725.CA39B73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <4337F0A0.6030804@gmail.com> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > -spc (Now, had IBM licenced MCA to the adult industry (read: porn) it > might still be a viable contender today 8-P Microchannel porn... interesting. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 26 07:59:58 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 08:59:58 -0400 Subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4337F0CE.5090905@gmail.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sun, 25 Sep 2005, Gil Carrick wrote: > > >>>I've seen this kind of thing a lot: one person claims that >>>they invented somesuch and that some company came by, checked >>>it out, wished them well, then went off and stole the technology. >>> >> >>... >> >>>Sellam Ismail Vintage >>>Computer Festival >> >>... >> >>I suspect that it happened in some cases. The problem is that the claimant >>needs to provide some evidence to back up the claim. > > > For certain. I've heard plenty of stories of people getting screwed out > of their ideas. In most cases it's their fault, either for being naive or > for being careless. > > The problem usually is that they don't have anything other than their > recollection to back up their claim. That's why you need an NDA before you show anyone anything. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 26 08:19:49 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 09:19:49 -0400 Subject: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 Message-ID: <0INF0023CEBECPE7@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 > From: "Gooijen, Henk" > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:42:48 +0200 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >Thanks Pete. >I had a look at the backplane yesterday, but did not see an Hxxxx number. >There was a xx-yyyyy (?) digit number, but I will check again this evening. That number may be cross referenced to a Mxxxx number. Most likely M9270 as that was common use for the BA11M based LSI-11/03 system package with H780 PS. The H780 carries two fans and is known to sing (high pitch whistle) and that is most recognizable! > > <------ M7270 ------> <------ M8044 ------> ================== > <------ empty ------> <------ M7940 ------> | o o __ __ __ | > <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> | ~~ ~~ ~~ | > <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> ================== usual config is: M7264 (quad) option2|option1 option3|option4 option5|option6 Others: M7270 |M8044 option2|option1 option3|option4 option5|option6 Option1 is typically DLV11 (SLU) option2 is typcailly DLV11 (SLU#2) option3 is typically RXV11 (floppy) option4 is typcically REV11 (floppy boot prom) It is also possible to use core (MMV11-A) in this system but it leaves limited space for serial or disk interfaces. >The figure is as seen from the front side when the front cover is removed. >The "art work" shows the panel with the switches and LEDs at the right. >To remove a board from the cage you must pull the board "out of the >screen", so the magenta handles are at the front side. > >The FieldGuide says that a few lines are used for something else, but >I expect (hope) that the M7270 and the M7264 usage of all connections >is identical. M7264 and M7270 are identical CPUs (LSI-11 chipset aka KD-11F) with the differnce that the M7264 has 0 to 4k of local ram on the card. Bus usage is identical and they are 16bit address (Q16). >It makes perfect sense that I will have to adjust the base address of >the memory on the M8044 if I install the M7264. I will take an other >look at the memory board with the new information from you. >I will dig up the MicroNotes! Correct. Note: M8044 can have variable population of ram and there are varients for sizes from 4KW (W is 16bit word) to 32KW. the board also carried parity is some versions. M8044-AA 4k no parity MSV11-DA M8044-BA 8K no parity MSV-11DC M8044-CA 16K no parity MSV11-CA M8044-DA 32K no parity MSV11-DD M8045-DA 32k Parity MSV11-ED >It will be interesting to see what the system does when I power it up. >The console is connected to the M7940 ... I hope to see a prompt! Base DLV-11 SLU, make sure the addresses and vectors are setup as console. (177560rx, 177564 tx, v60rx,V64tx) nominal baud rate could be anything from 110-9600. Common baud used was 300, 1200 and 9600. >Regarding the M8018 WCS option: is this "just" a chip, like FIS or the >big CIS one? I thought it was a board (module) as the M number suggests. >Anybody here has a M8018 WCS and can tell more about it? It'a a board of quad width. Power for the board comes off the bus but it's signals are a cable to one of the LSI-11 microm sockets (40 pin). Besides acting as programable microcode store there are IO registers to allow writing and reading the ram content as well as mapping where the code store appears in CPU microcode address map. Allison From GOOI at oce.nl Mon Sep 26 08:37:11 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:37:11 +0200 Subject: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1ECD@gd-mail03.oce.nl> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison > Sent: maandag 26 september 2005 15:20 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 > > > > >Subject: RE: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 > > From: "Gooijen, Henk" > > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:42:48 +0200 > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts'" > > > >Thanks Pete. > >I had a look at the backplane yesterday, but did not see an > >Hxxxx number. > >There was a xx-yyyyy (?) digit number, but I will check > >again this evening. > > That number may be cross referenced to a Mxxxx number. Most > likely M9270 as that was common use for the BA11M based > LSI-11/03 system package with H780 PS. The H780 carries two > fans and is known to sing (high pitch > whistle) and that is most recognizable! > > > > > <------ M7270 ------> <------ M8044 ------> ================== > > <------ empty ------> <------ M7940 ------> | o o __ __ __ | > > <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> | ~~ ~~ ~~ | > > <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> ================== > > usual config is: > M7264 (quad) > option2|option1 > option3|option4 > option5|option6 > > Others: > M7270 |M8044 > option2|option1 > option3|option4 > option5|option6 > > Option1 is typically DLV11 (SLU) > option2 is typcailly DLV11 (SLU#2) > option3 is typically RXV11 (floppy) > option4 is typcically REV11 (floppy boot prom) > > It is also possible to use core (MMV11-A) in this system but > it leaves limited space for serial or disk interfaces. > > >The figure is as seen from the front side when the front > cover is removed. > >The "art work" shows the panel with the switches and LEDs at > the right. > >To remove a board from the cage you must pull the board "out of the > >screen", so the magenta handles are at the front side. > > > >The FieldGuide says that a few lines are used for something else, but > >I expect (hope) that the M7270 and the M7264 usage of all connections > >is identical. > > M7264 and M7270 are identical CPUs (LSI-11 chipset aka > KD-11F) with the differnce > that the M7264 has 0 to 4k of local ram on the card. Bus > usage is identical and > they are 16bit address (Q16). > > >It makes perfect sense that I will have to adjust the base address of > >the memory on the M8044 if I install the M7264. I will take an other > >look at the memory board with the new information from you. > >I will dig up the MicroNotes! > > Correct. Note: M8044 can have variable population of ram and there > are varients for sizes from 4KW (W is 16bit word) to 32KW. the board > also carried parity is some versions. > > M8044-AA 4k no parity MSV11-DA > M8044-BA 8K no parity MSV-11DC > M8044-CA 16K no parity MSV11-CA > M8044-DA 32K no parity MSV11-DD > M8045-DA 32k Parity MSV11-ED > > >It will be interesting to see what the system does when I > power it up. > >The console is connected to the M7940 ... I hope to see a prompt! > > Base DLV-11 SLU, make sure the addresses and vectors are > setup as console. > (177560rx, 177564 tx, v60rx,V64tx) nominal baud rate could > be anything > from 110-9600. Common baud used was 300, 1200 and 9600. > > >Regarding the M8018 WCS option: is this "just" a chip, like > FIS or the > >big CIS one? I thought it was a board (module) as the M > number suggests. > >Anybody here has a M8018 WCS and can tell more about it? > > It'a a board of quad width. Power for the board comes off the bus but > it's signals are a cable to one of the LSI-11 microm sockets (40 pin). > Besides acting as programable microcode store there are IO registers > to allow writing and reading the ram content as well as mapping where > the code store appears in CPU microcode address map. > > > Allison Thanks Allison! Together with the info from Pete I am on the safe side to turn on power. BTW, I assume that you made a typo in the serpentine: > option2|option1 > option3|option4 > option5|option6 That last line should be option6|option5, or ......? 73, - Henk, PA8PDP. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 26 09:12:49 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:12:49 -0400 Subject: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 Message-ID: <0INF0017QGRPJET6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 > From: "Gooijen, Henk" > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:37:11 +0200 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >> usual config is: >> M7264 (quad) >> option2|option1 >> option3|option4 >> option5|option6 >> >> Others: >> M7270 |M8044 >> option2|option1 >> option3|option4 >> option5|option6 >> >> Option1 is typically DLV11 (SLU) >> option2 is typcailly DLV11 (SLU#2) >> option3 is typically RXV11 (floppy) >> option4 is typcically REV11 (floppy boot prom) >> >> Allison > >Thanks Allison! >Together with the info from Pete I am on the safe side to turn on power. >BTW, I assume that you made a typo in the serpentine: >> option2|option1 >> option3|option4 >> option5|option6 >That last line should be option6|option5, or ......? > As shown it is correct. 2,3,5 on the left: 1,4,6 on the right. it's one of the odder -11 backplanes. I believe the reson for that odd layout is when cascading multiple boxes (BA11M) the cables orient easier as option 5 to next box topleft is the shown configuration and the REV-11 prom boot is nominally in option6 as bus grant continuity is not required for most memories. My source was the Microcomputer handbook 1976/77. I also have one with core in it. Allison From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Mon Sep 26 09:17:05 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:17:05 -0400 Subject: INMOS B004 Transputer boards on ebay... Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557830C17@cpexchange.olf.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Transputer-IMS-B004-Evaluation-Board-von-INMOS_W0QQitemZ 5812899907QQcategoryZ12949QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem and http://cgi.ebay.com/Transputer-IMS-B004-Evaluation-Board-von-INMOS_W0QQitemZ 5812900103QQcategoryZ12949QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Cheers, Ram From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 26 09:18:24 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 08:18:24 -0600 Subject: SIMM, Address Lines Order? In-Reply-To: <200509260642.CAA18718@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200509250619.j8P6JpHp035015@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200509260642.CAA18718@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <43380330.4050401@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: >>When connecting DRAM chips to the pins of a SIMM (i.e. laying out the >>traces) does it matter if the order of the address and data lines is >>preserved? [...] > > > What about refreshes? (This is a question, not a challenge; I do not > know enough about how dynamic RAM refresh works to know whether this > really is relevant. But it seems to me that it might be.) > Just that all of them gets refeshed in the alloted time. Note they just have to be read for refesh. Still you better check the data sheets if you got them for the fine print. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 26 09:35:16 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:35:16 -0400 Subject: SIMM, Address Lines Order? Message-ID: <0INF001BLHT4FUN8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: SIMM, Address Lines Order? > From: woodelf > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 08:18:24 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >der Mouse wrote: >>>When connecting DRAM chips to the pins of a SIMM (i.e. laying out the >>>traces) does it matter if the order of the address and data lines is >>>preserved? [...] >> >> >> What about refreshes? (This is a question, not a challenge; I do not >> know enough about how dynamic RAM refresh works to know whether this >> really is relevant. But it seems to me that it might be.) >> > >Just that all of them gets refeshed in the alloted time. >Note they just have to be read for refesh. Still you better >check the data sheets if you got them for the fine print. If your using cas\ only refresh then the data lines are not used as that is done with internal refresh counter. Tim Olmstead wrote a Z80 Dram interfacing manual thats around the net and cover simms as well as the ram on them. Very useful. I have an electronic copy locally if needed. Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 26 09:59:54 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:59:54 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebay In-Reply-To: <433742BD.3010902@yahoo.co.uk> References: <26c11a64050925142436174447@mail.gmail.com> <49211.82.152.112.73.1127685641.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <26c11a640509251630b893394@mail.gmail.com> <433742BD.3010902@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <43380CEA.4080407@yahoo.co.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > Dan Williams wrote: > >> On 25/09/05, Witchy wrote: >> >>>> Anyone interested in this ? >>>> >>>> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5270170547 Anyone else on this list bidding on this? One of our museum guys stuck a bid on it but says someone else seems pretty keen to snag it. We don't really need an original disk, but a copy of the image would sure be nice... cheers Jules From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Sep 26 10:04:27 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:04:27 -0500 Subject: SIMM, Address Lines Order? In-Reply-To: References: <200509250619.j8P6JpHp035015@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <43380DFB.9080008@pacbell.net> Jeff Walther wrote: > When connecting DRAM chips to the pins of a SIMM (i.e. laying out the > traces) does it matter if the order of the address and data lines is > preserved? In other words, does A0 on the SIMM need to connect to A0 on > the chip, and A0 on all the other chips as well? These are old DRAM, > such as FPM or EDO, used in 30 pin SIMMs. Nothing new and fancy like > SDRAM. > > I believe the answer is no. But I know from experience that there are > sometimes odd scenarios that are easily overlooked, so I figured I'd > access the shared experience and knowledge here. > > It's a lot easier to layout the PCB for the SIMMs, if I don't preserve > order. And it shouldn't matter, because anything that gets stored at > address X should come back out on a read to address X. > > The only circumstance I can think of that could cause a problem is if > the RAM has some kind of sequential read mode where consequeutive > addresses are expected. Reading the datasheet, I don't see a mode like > that. The closest thing is a burst mode where the Row address stays > constant and a series of Column addresses are supplied, but that should > work just fine, I think. Static column mode DRAMs don't care about the mapping. Burst mode DRAMs could be a problem. IIRC, the burst length for older DRAMs was two to four sequential addresses, obtained by internally accessesing consecutive DRAM locations without having to wiggle the address lines. This mode was typically used for filling an x86 cache line. Thus you should at least ensure that A0 and A1 of the SIMM get wired to A0 and A1 of the DRAM. The others are free to remap. If you know your application doesn't use this mode of operation, then remap any/all of the addresses. One last thing. There were DRAMs that used a different number of address lines for RAS than for CAS. For instance, say you have a 128K bit DRAM (for instance, often sorted out from failing 256Kb DRAMs) arranged as 256 rows by 512 bits per row. There would be 9 address lines on the DRAM, but one of the address lines (probably A8) would need to be distinguished and mapped consistently. As a disclaimer, I have designed, implemented and shipped a number (10?) of DRAM controllers, both in TTL and in ASIC forms, but the most recent to ship was about 1991, so some details might have faded. From GOOI at oce.nl Mon Sep 26 10:29:38 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 17:29:38 +0200 Subject: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1ECE@gd-mail03.oce.nl> > >Together with the info from Pete I am on the safe side to > >turn on power. > >BTW, I assume that you made a typo in the serpentine: > >> option2|option1 > >> option3|option4 > >> option5|option6 > >That last line should be option6|option5, or ......? > > > > As shown it is correct. 2,3,5 on the left: 1,4,6 on the right. > it's one of the odder -11 backplanes. I believe the reson > for that odd layout is when cascading multiple boxes (BA11M) > the cables orient easier as option 5 to next box topleft is > the shown configuration and the REV-11 prom boot is nominally > in option6 as bus grant continuity is not required for most memories. > > My source was the Microcomputer handbook 1976/77. > I also have one with core in it. > > Allison Allison, thanks again! Indeed odd, as that is not the "serpentine rule" ! I am sure that I would have made that mistake ... 73, - Henk, PA8PDP. From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Mon Sep 26 11:24:16 2005 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:24:16 +0200 Subject: Micro-fiche to PDF Message-ID: <002701c5c2b6$bd9f5760$8101a8c0@dordt.nl> Hi, Does anyone has any experience in transfering IBM Micro-fiche images to PDF ? I have several old IBM manuals on micro-fiche. Regards Henk From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Sep 26 11:40:37 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 12:40:37 -0400 Subject: Micro-fiche to PDF In-Reply-To: <002701c5c2b6$bd9f5760$8101a8c0@dordt.nl> References: <002701c5c2b6$bd9f5760$8101a8c0@dordt.nl> Message-ID: <43382485.7090605@atarimuseum.com> You can use Adobe Exchange and install the Adobe PDFwriter. All you do is using your scanning software, place the microfiche onto a scanner with a blank white heavy stock sheet of paper behind the film, and scan the film to the pdfwriter and save it. There are some PD versions of the PDFwriter out on the net as well if you don't want to purchase the Adobe Exchange package. I have an HP Scanjet and I use its Copier program and I just tell it to copy my files to an adobe pdfwriter file. Curt Henk Stegeman wrote: >Hi, > >Does anyone has any experience in transfering IBM Micro-fiche images to PDF ? > >I have several old IBM manuals on micro-fiche. > >Regards Henk > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.6/111 - Release Date: 9/23/2005 From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 26 11:58:22 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 09:58:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SIMM, Address Lines Order? Message-ID: <200509261658.JAA03987@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "der Mouse" > >> When connecting DRAM chips to the pins of a SIMM (i.e. laying out the >> traces) does it matter if the order of the address and data lines is >> preserved? [...] > >What about refreshes? (This is a question, not a challenge; I do not >know enough about how dynamic RAM refresh works to know whether this >really is relevant. But it seems to me that it might be.) Hi Only that the first address lines that are used for refresh need to be grouped. As example for a 128 cycle refresh, that would be that one could mix any of the A0-A6 lines. This is because of how the blocks of RAM are accessed and then selected by a mux to the output. If you took a 128 cycle refresh and swapped A0 with A7, only half the arrays would get refresh. It still might not be an issue, depending on software and other hardware. One can do refresh by just reading the array, such as a DMA for video out might do. Dwight > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Sep 26 11:56:44 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 17:56:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 In-Reply-To: "Gooijen, Henk" "RE: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270" (Sep 26, 17:29) References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1ECE@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <10509261756.ZM18164@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 26 2005, 17:29, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > > >BTW, I assume that you made a typo in the serpentine: > > >> option2|option1 > > >> option3|option4 > > >> option5|option6 > > >That last line should be option6|option5, or ......? > > > > > As shown it is correct. 2,3,5 on the left: 1,4,6 on the right. > > it's one of the odder -11 backplanes. > > My source was the Microcomputer handbook 1976/77. > > I also have one with core in it. > thanks again! Indeed odd, as that is not the "serpentine rule" ! > I am sure that I would have made that mistake ... No, that's not right. It's ordinary serpentine. I don't have one, but I just checked the Microcomputer Handbook myself, and it's definitely like this: A B C D processor option 2 option 1 option 3 option 4 option 6 option 5 It's on page 6-3, and the expansion options, with the cable coming from where I've shown "option 6", are shown on 6-19. It's also shown in the same arrangement on page 426 of the Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Sep 26 12:24:20 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:24:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC H605E Message-ID: OK, what does a DEC H605E Motor Drive Amplifier go in? It is a six by eight board with four TO-3 transistors, heatsinked, plus a few diodes and stuff. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 26 12:34:16 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:34:16 -0400 Subject: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 In-Reply-To: <10509261756.ZM18164@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1ECE@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <10509261756.ZM18164@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <43383118.9060908@bellatlantic.net> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Sep 26 2005, 17:29, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > >>>>BTW, I assume that you made a typo in the serpentine: >>>> >>>>> option2|option1 >>>>> option3|option4 >>>>> option5|option6 >>>> >>>>That last line should be option6|option5, or ......? >>>> >>> >>>As shown it is correct. 2,3,5 on the left: 1,4,6 on the right. >>>it's one of the odder -11 backplanes. > > >>>My source was the Microcomputer handbook 1976/77. >>>I also have one with core in it. > > >>thanks again! Indeed odd, as that is not the "serpentine rule" ! >>I am sure that I would have made that mistake ... > > > No, that's not right. It's ordinary serpentine. I don't have one, but > I just checked the Microcomputer Handbook myself, and it's definitely > like this: > > A B C D > processor > option 2 option 1 > option 3 option 4 > option 6 option 5 > > It's on page 6-3, and the expansion options, with the cable coming from > where I've shown "option 6", are shown on 6-19. It's also shown in the > same arrangement on page 426 of the Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook. > Explain the drawings on pages 6-19 and 6-20 of the 76/77 microcomputer handbook. I do have Two. One bare backplane and the other configured 11/2 system. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 26 12:57:35 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:57:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Micro-fiche to PDF In-Reply-To: <43382485.7090605@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at Sep 26, 2005 12:40:37 PM Message-ID: <200509261757.j8QHvZIY008777@onyx.spiritone.com> > You can use Adobe Exchange and install the Adobe PDFwriter. All you > do is using your scanning software, place the microfiche onto a scanner > with a blank white heavy stock sheet of paper behind the film, and scan > the film to the pdfwriter and save it. There are some PD versions of > the PDFwriter out on the net as well if you don't want to purchase the > Adobe Exchange package. I have an HP Scanjet and I use its Copier > program and I just tell it to copy my files to an adobe pdfwriter file. Just what resolution scanner are you using? I'm not aware of any standard scanner that is high enough resolution to scan Microfiche, and have it be readable. Zane From vrs at msn.com Mon Sep 26 13:29:33 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 11:29:33 -0700 Subject: DEC H605E References: Message-ID: > OK, what does a DEC H605E Motor Drive Amplifier go in? > > It is a six by eight board with four TO-3 transistors, heatsinked, plus a > few diodes and stuff. An LA30. I looked it up in the "Edited Option Modules List, 1991.06.13. The description there says, "Motor Drive Amp,LA30". Vince From GOOI at oce.nl Mon Sep 26 13:20:39 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 20:20:39 +0200 Subject: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 Message-ID: <0456A13F7932824EB47FE10CCDB8DECD46AD17@gd-mail04.oce.nl> Ok, back home, and thanks to all suggestions, I found the following. Barely visible is the writing H9270, so that clears up what backplane is installed in the card cage. The power supply is indeed an H780. I have a copy of "microcomputer handbook" 1976-77, and on page 2-4 at the bottom is figure 2-2 which shows (literally, table and text): A B C D ------------------+------------------ 1 | position 1 | position 2 | <--- positions 1 & 2 are ------------------+------------------ normally used for 2 | position 4 | position 3 | the processor module ------------------+------------------ in single backplane 3 | position 5 | position 6 | systems and the first ------------------+------------------ backplane in multiple 4 | position 8 | position 7 | backplane systems ------------------+------------------ Anyway, I was enough assured to apply power. Double joy, because the fans do not make an awful high pitched sound, just "normal" blowing, and I got on the terminal the output 173002 @ So, that looks like one more system in my collection :-) Lucky for me it is a small system. I need something more to make it usable. The RXV11 from Pete Collum crossed my mind ... thanks for all good info! - Henk, PA8PDP. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 26 13:59:28 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 11:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Early adopters (was: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: <20050926045725.CA39B73029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050926045725.CA39B73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <20050926115701.Y94169@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > If you're talking about VHS and Beta, I suspect that VHS won because the > licensor allowed the adult movie industry (read: porn) to make VHS tapes > while Sony (holders of the Beta format) did not license their technology to > the adult movie industry (read: porn). . . . > -spc (Now, had IBM licenced MCA to the adult industry (read: porn) it > might still be a viable contender today 8-P It seems that the early adopters of any technology, necessary to insure success, tend to be: pornographers, religious fanatics, and geeks. Without any of those three, most technologies won't survive long enough to become dominant. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From Ladyelec at aol.com Mon Sep 26 14:31:01 2005 From: Ladyelec at aol.com (Ladyelec at aol.com) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:31:01 EDT Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic Message-ID: <27.7ab24c84.3069a675@aol.com> In a message dated 9/26/05 8:02:30 AM Central Daylight Time, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org writes: > For a good example of HDPE, you need go no further than your wastebasket or > garbage can--or the liner bag in a box of corn flakes. I've tried to > mechanically polish the stuff, but it's soft and any abrasive is easily embedded in > the surface and it tends to get "stringy" if it gets warm under the buffing > wheel. Have you tried Dow Scrubbing bubbles bathroom cleaner and a scotch pad? Spray the cleaner on and let it set a few minutes , spray again then use scotch pad. Isa From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 26 14:37:20 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:37:20 -0400 Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic In-Reply-To: <27.7ab24c84.3069a675@aol.com> References: <27.7ab24c84.3069a675@aol.com> Message-ID: <43384DF0.6010705@gmail.com> Ladyelec at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/26/05 8:02:30 AM Central Daylight Time, > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org writes: > > >>For a good example of HDPE, you need go no further than your wastebasket or >>garbage can--or the liner bag in a box of corn flakes. I've tried to >>mechanically polish the stuff, but it's soft and any abrasive is easily embedded in >>the surface and it tends to get "stringy" if it gets warm under the buffing >>wheel. > > > Have you tried Dow Scrubbing bubbles bathroom cleaner and a scotch pad? Spray > the cleaner on and let it set a few minutes , spray again then use scotch > pad. I've found that Soft Scrub works great on a lot of stuff. Same scotchbrite pad. Takes off everything from old tape residue and yellowing/discoloration to old permanent marker. Peace... Sridhar From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Sep 26 14:44:38 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:44:38 -0400 Subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 26 Sep 2005 08:59:58 EDT." <4337F0CE.5090905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200509261944.j8QJicfg021794@mwave.heeltoe.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >That's why you need an NDA before you show anyone anything. [warning - seriously off topic] I disagree. An NDA won't usually do squat in that case. You need to document your invention *in pen* in a good engineering note book and do things like make patent applications to show beyond a shadow of a doubt you had the idea and reduced it to practice... [I've spent some time with the attorney who defended the guy who invented the hot air popcorn maker and the guy who invented stereo tv. Not proud about that, but sometimes attorneys can be helpful.] ps: for the record I hate software patents. -brad From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Sep 26 15:52:59 2005 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:52:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 In-Reply-To: Allison "Re: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270" (Sep 26, 13:34) References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1ECE@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <10509261756.ZM18164@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <43383118.9060908@bellatlantic.net> Message-ID: <10509262152.ZM18669@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 26 2005, 13:34, Allison wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > No, that's not right. It's ordinary serpentine. I don't have one, but > > I just checked the Microcomputer Handbook myself, and it's definitely > > like this: > > > > A B C D > > processor > > option 2 option 1 > > option 3 option 4 > > option 6 option 5 > > > > It's on page 6-3, and the expansion options, with the cable coming from > > where I've shown "option 6", are shown on 6-19. It's also shown in the > > same arrangement on page 426 of the Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook. > > > Explain the drawings on pages 6-19 and 6-20 of the 76/77 microcomputer > handbook. The drawings on 6-19 and 6-20 in my copy show standard serpentine, as I drew above, ie with the last option (or, in those drawings, the terminator/cable connector) in the bottom left. This also matches my handouts from the DEC QBus training course I went on in the early 80s, the diagram on page 2-4 of the 1976 Microcomputer Handbook, Fig.3-16 "Daisy-Chain Priority" on page 3-27 of the 1983 edition of the BA11-M Technical Manual, Fig.1-9 on page 1-12 of the LSI-11 Processor Handbook, Fig.4-2 "H9270 Option Positions" on page 4-4 of the 1978-79 Memories And Peripherals Handbook, Fig.4 "BA11-M Expansion Box Interconnections" and Fig.5 on pages 93 and 94 (chapter on BA11-M) of the 1983-84 Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook, Fig.2 "H9270 Option Positions" on page 367 of the same 1983-84 handbook, ditto pages 72, 73, and 426 of the 1980 edition. Of course many of these are copies of each other, but I'm sure if there were an error, DEC would have corrected it at some time between 1975 and 1983 :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Sep 26 16:10:59 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 17:10:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC H605E In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > An LA30. I looked it up in the "Edited Option Modules List, 1991.06.13. > The > description there says, "Motor Drive Amp,LA30". SO that is the original DECwriter then. I do not know if anyone on the list has an LA30 (they are pretty rare, apparently), but does anyone need this card cheap? William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Sep 26 16:18:25 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 17:18:25 -0400 Subject: DEC H605E References: Message-ID: <17208.26017.284759.630178@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> An LA30. I looked it up in the "Edited Option Modules List, >> 1991.06.13. The description there says, "Motor Drive Amp,LA30". William> SO that is the original DECwriter then. I do not know if William> anyone on the list has an LA30 (they are pretty rare, William> apparently), ... Probably because they tended to jam a lot. I remember we had one in college and scrapped it as soon as we could. All subsequent DECwriters were excellent. paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 26 17:38:15 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:38:15 -0400 Subject: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 Message-ID: <0ING0016T45YJ1I8@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 > From: Pete Turnbull > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:52:59 +0100 (BST) >Of course many of these are copies of each other, but I'm sure if there >were an error, DEC would have corrected it at some time between 1975 >and 1983 :-) > ;) my 81 and 83 copies do not agree with the 76/77 copy. considering its was obtained internal to DEC it may have been a first printing. I had to use my lsi-11 system service manual as the arbiter as its later than 83. If I were actually working on the system I'd just pull the cage and look before grabbing the book. Then again I do have a assortment of Qbus and a few have non standard backplanes that were never supplied in the boxes I have them in. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 26 17:42:52 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:42:52 -0400 Subject: Available for pickup. Message-ID: <0ING002OY4DNCU88@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> I do not hold these but I've been asked if I want them. Allison >I sent this earlier to arrl.org, but I thought I would also try here. These >are free to the first taker, but that may be the rubbish man ! >Apollo 400 >Apollo 715s/50 >Apollo 715t/50 >(2) Apollo 715/64 >Apollo 400 From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Sep 26 18:24:22 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:24:22 -0500 Subject: SIMM, Address Lines Order? In-Reply-To: <0INF001BLHT4FUN8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0INF001BLHT4FUN8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050926182422.00006f88@brass> On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:35:16 -0400 Allison wrote: > > > >Subject: Re: SIMM, Address Lines Order? > > From: woodelf > > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 08:18:24 -0600 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > >der Mouse wrote: > >>>When connecting DRAM chips to the pins of a SIMM (i.e. laying out the > >>>traces) does it matter if the order of the address and data lines is > >>>preserved? [...] > >> > >> > >> What about refreshes? (This is a question, not a challenge; I do not > >> know enough about how dynamic RAM refresh works to know whether this > >> really is relevant. But it seems to me that it might be.) > >> > > > >Just that all of them gets refeshed in the alloted time. > >Note they just have to be read for refesh. Still you better > >check the data sheets if you got them for the fine print. > > If your using cas\ only refresh then the data lines are not used > as that is done with internal refresh counter. > > Tim Olmstead wrote a Z80 Dram interfacing manual thats around the net > and cover simms as well as the ram on them. Very useful. I have an > electronic copy locally if needed. > The Z80 has DRAM refresh functionality built right into the processor, if I'm remembering right. From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Sep 26 18:33:18 2005 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:33:18 -0500 Subject: SIMM, Address Lines Order? In-Reply-To: <20050926182422.00006f88@brass> References: <0INF001BLHT4FUN8@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <20050926182422.00006f88@brass> Message-ID: <4338853E.80707@pacbell.net> Scott Stevens wrote: ... > The Z80 has DRAM refresh functionality built right into the processor, > if I'm remembering right. Except I think it only ran through 128 addresses, which was OK for 16K bit DRAMs. I believe somebody made 64K bit DRAMs that were arranged with 128 rows so that Z80 refresh would still work. And has been pointed out, systems that use CAS before RAS refresh don't care about this. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 26 17:37:20 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 23:37:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: <200509251719120031.0C099F9F@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 25, 5 05:19:12 pm Message-ID: > > > On 9/25/2005 at 10:34 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > > >Since both 720K and 1.44M 3.5" disks (on a PC) rotate at 300 rpm, I am > >trying to figure out why you'd want a 360rpm 3.5" drive. I've never seen > >one... > > > >(600 rpm is another matter...) > > You've obviously never run into a NEC 9800 PC (or just about any other Indeed I haven't. > version of Japanese MS-DOS) diskette. 77 cylinders of 5x1024 sectors, > spinning at 360 RPM, just like an 8" drive. I am puzzled as to why that would spin at 360rpm. The format would be possible on a '720K' drive turning at 300 rpm using the normal 250kbps double-density data rate. If you double the data rate to 500kbps, you should be able to get more that 5 sectors, even at the faster spindle speed. What was the data rate at the interface connector of these Japanese machines? > > Most USB drives understand this format automatically. Not having got anything that supports the useless serial botch interface, I've not looked at such drives. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 26 17:43:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 23:43:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: SIMM, Address Lines Order? In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Walther" at Sep 25, 5 08:59:02 pm Message-ID: > > When connecting DRAM chips to the pins of a SIMM (i.e. laying out the > traces) does it matter if the order of the address and data lines is > preserved? In other words, does A0 on the SIMM need to connect to A0 > on the chip, and A0 on all the other chips as well? These are old > DRAM, such as FPM or EDO, used in 30 pin SIMMs. Nothing new and > fancy like SDRAM. Well, obviously for plain read and write, you can scramble the address and data lines any way you like (provided, if there are separate DIn and Dout, that you keep those consistent). There are a few possible problmes. 1) Refresh. If you use CAS-only refresh, then it doesn't matter at all, because the DRAM chip generates the refresh addrees. If you use RAS-only refresh, then it shouldn't matter as to the order uless only some of the address lines are used for refresh. For example, some 64K DRAMs (8 address lines) only used the lower 7 for refresh, then you would have to keep A0-A6 on the system going to A0-A6 on the RAM _in some order_, and keep A7 linked to A7. 2) If there are any clever multiple read modes, it may well be that you can do things change the bottom 2 address bits without doing a full memory cycle and effectively read 4 locations per full memory cycle. If the RAMs support something like that _and your machine uses it_, you'd have to keep A0 and A1 wired to A0 and A1 of the DRAMs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 26 17:52:30 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 23:52:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: <20050926045725.CA39B73029@linus.groomlake.area51> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Sep 26, 5 00:57:25 am Message-ID: > > to be non-successful. After all, the IBM PC caught on, as did VHS (in the > > latter case, the Philips V2000 system was better designed and better built). > > If you're talking about VHS and Beta, I suspect that VHS won because the Not at all. V2000 is not Beta. It was a Philips-designed system that used flip-over tapes and recorder up to 4 hours each side. What makes it interesting IMHO is that the heads are not fixed firmly to the drum, but are on piezo actuators, fed by slip rings and brush contacts on top of the drum. The heads follow the recorded tracks on the tape, there's fairly complex servo system for this, whcih means you can get noise-free slow motion, fast motion, and freeze-frame (on other VCR systems, the heads can't perfectly follow the tracks under these conditions). The Philips machines (but not the Grundig ones) were very simple mechanically. They had 5 motors, with direct drive to the capstan, both spools, and the head drum. The fifth motor operated the loading mechanism to bring the tape round the drum. The only rubber part was the pinch roller, no belts, no idlers. Not even a back-tension band, back tension was provided by passing a small, controlled, current through the supply spool motor. Electronically, the machine was full of plug-in boards. I can't remember all the funtions, but there was an IF strip, luminance, audio, chromanance, about 5 servo boards, system controm PSU, etc The system control was based on a mask-porgrammed 8048-series microcontroller. There was a diagnostic tool, which I'd love to find, that cosnsited ofa box containg an EPROM and address latch linked to a DIL clip. You clipped it onto the system cotnrol processor, it changed the state of the EA pin, causing said processor to execute the code in the diagnostic tool, not its internal ROM. I have one of these machiens for UK PAL complete with the service manual, and a similar one for (French) SECAM. I am not sure there ever was an NTSC version. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 26 17:58:18 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 23:58:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: seeking connection cable for RK07 drive In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1ECB@gd-mail03.oce.nl> from "Gooijen, Henk" at Sep 26, 5 01:54:01 pm Message-ID: > > Hi all, > > I finally got to set up my PDP-11/34C with TU80 and two RK07 drives. > Given the space in my "museum", the RK07 drives are not immediately > next to the 11/34 rack. I am looking for an RK07 cable, part number > 70-12292-25 or 70-12292-40 (25 or 40 foot length). > The cable *looks* like the RL01/RL02 cable, but is not identical ! > You can use the RK06/RK07 cable with RL01/RL02 drives, but not the > other way around, because the RK06/RK07 cable has a few extra pins > actually connected (which the RL drives does not need). > That's what I've heard long ago ... That is correct. The RK06/07 cable has, IIRC, all 40 pins wired (maybe one is left black that would be used for termination power). The RL cable has about 26 pins wired. The terminators, BTW, are the same. DEC would not aprove of this, but I have a DW11-B (Unibus-Qbus translator) in my 11/45, with the Q-bus end in a MINC chassis (to get the nice MINC modules, and an IBV11 GPIB interfave, on a Unibus machine). The official ink between the 2 halves of the DW11-B is a pair of 40 way ribbon cables. In my machine, the cables go from the Unibus board to a couple of RK07-like bulkhead connectors, then through a couple of RK07 cables to the MINC rack where they go onto a couple more bulkhead connectors, back to 40 way ribbon cable, then into the other half of the DW11-B. Works fine... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 26 17:33:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 23:33:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: <26c11a640509251630b893394@mail.gmail.com> from "Dan Williams" at Sep 26, 5 00:30:00 am Message-ID: > I've been trying to get hold of one of these and a 380z for ages, they > seem to be quite scarce now. Unless I'm looking in the wrong places. I've never seen the floppy drive for the 480Z. From what I can tell, it linked to one of the serial ports on the 480Z, and used a synchronous protocol (both ends of the link were Z80-SIO chips). IIRC it's the same PCB as was used for ther intellegent disk controller in the 380Z, which contained a Z80, RAM, and the serial chip. I suspect the ROM was different though. 480Z machines are hard to find now, although there' a plastic-cased one on E-bay at the momnet, I think. The older metal-cased version (black painted, like a 380Z keyboard) is, I am told. rarer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 26 18:12:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 00:12:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC H605E In-Reply-To: <17208.26017.284759.630178@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Sep 26, 5 05:18:25 pm Message-ID: > William> SO that is the original DECwriter then. I do not know if > William> anyone on the list has an LA30 (they are pretty rare, > William> apparently), ... > > Probably because they tended to jam a lot. I remember we had one in > college and scrapped it as soon as we could. All subsequent > DECwriters were excellent. That is not the adjective I'd use to describe the LA36 :-) The LA36 has a really nasty bit of design. There's no home switch for the carriage. Instead, it rams the carriage into the end stop and detects that the motor is not turning (no pulses from the position encoder). Fine until the plastic key moulded into the sprocket breaks. The motor keeps on turning with the sproket slipping on the spindle and draws enough current to burn the enamel off the windings. It then goes short-circuit and blows the motor fuse. About 10 years ago, this happend at the place where I was studying. DEC could still supply the motor, but at the ridiculous price of \pounds 130+ (this is a simple permanent-magnet motor). On the ground that research student's time is not worth that much, a friend and I stripped it down and rewound it. It ran find for another 2 years. We finally scrapped that machine. I didn't want it, but I saved most of the useful bits, including all the PCBs, the printhead, etc. I still have that motor with the handwritten label 'rewound by ARD and AMG' somewhere. -tony From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Sep 26 19:31:17 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 17:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SIMM, Address Lines Order? Message-ID: <200509270031.RAA04082@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Scott Stevens" > >On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:35:16 -0400 >Allison wrote: > >> > >> >Subject: Re: SIMM, Address Lines Order? >> > From: woodelf >> > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 08:18:24 -0600 >> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > >> >der Mouse wrote: >> >>>When connecting DRAM chips to the pins of a SIMM (i.e. laying out >the >> >>>traces) does it matter if the order of the address and data lines >is >> >>>preserved? [...] >> >> >> >> >> >> What about refreshes? (This is a question, not a challenge; I do >not >> >> know enough about how dynamic RAM refresh works to know whether >this >> >> really is relevant. But it seems to me that it might be.) >> >> >> > >> >Just that all of them gets refeshed in the alloted time. >> >Note they just have to be read for refesh. Still you better >> >check the data sheets if you got them for the fine print. >> >> If your using cas\ only refresh then the data lines are not used >> as that is done with internal refresh counter. >> >> Tim Olmstead wrote a Z80 Dram interfacing manual thats around the net >> and cover simms as well as the ram on them. Very useful. I have an >> electronic copy locally if needed. >> > >The Z80 has DRAM refresh functionality built right into the processor, >if I'm remembering right. > Hi Only 128 cycle. Be careful. Some RAMs are 256 cycle. Dwight From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 26 19:59:23 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 17:59:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron) In-Reply-To: <06c601c5c179$10dc3e00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <20050924005606.KQJ16985.tomts36-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard><200509240018250221.033CBE81@10.0.0.252><20050924092855.E8545@shell.lmi.net> <20050924104154.E965@fiche.wps.com> <06c601c5c179$10dc3e00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20050926175833.E1226@fiche.wps.com> On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, John Allain wrote: > Subject: Re: Odd floppy drives (Helitron) > >> He claims that he was the inventor of the basic >> floppy mechanism ... This was around 1980, maybe 1979. > > 69 ~ 70? > I mean, by 1980 floppies were down to 5.25" and the 8" > had been out well over 5 years. Maybe the guy with the > knob drive was lying even harder than you suspected. Sorry, I was unclear -- I meant I *saw* all this stuff in 1980 or so, and yes, it was quite old then, but I'd guess (flat out guess) that it was "new" in the 1960's. From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 26 20:03:48 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Odd floppy drives (Helitron) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050926180000.P1226@fiche.wps.com> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Alan Shugart is regarded as the inventor of the "floppy" disk in 1971 at > IBM. So unless Al comes forward with a confession, this guy's story will > need a lot more details than just off-hand ramblings. > > I've seen this kind of thing a lot: one person claims that they invented > somesuch and that some company came by, checked it out, wished them well, > then went off and stole the technology. I tried to present the story only as my personal experience of visiting Helitron, Inc around 1980, what I saw, and no more. I don't support or deny the man's claims, as I have no further facts than what I presented. It's entirely possible he got ripped off, or he's nuts, both, or neither, or got burned in a deal, or made unreasonable demands, or it wasn't unique enough, ad nauseum. We'll likely never know unless someone decides it's worth chasing it all down. That someone is not me! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 26 20:48:19 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:48:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050926182738.K4439@shell.lmi.net> > > You've obviously never run into a NEC 9800 PC (or just about any other On Mon, 26 Sep 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > Indeed I haven't. > > version of Japanese MS-DOS) diskette. 77 cylinders of 5x1024 sectors, > > spinning at 360 RPM, just like an 8" drive. > > I am puzzled as to why that would spin at 360rpm. Maybe the engineers just REALLY preferred 8" drives? > The format would be > possible on a '720K' drive turning at 300 rpm using the normal 250kbps > double-density data rate. If you double the data rate to 500kbps, you > should be able to get more that 5 sectors, even at the faster spindle > speed. > What was the data rate at the interface connector of these Japanese machines? NEC is probably NOT using a WD FDC :-) The index gap has to be larger for the basic 765 setup than with WD. The rest of the gaps are similar between NEC and WD. At 300K bits per second with 360 RPM, the format would be similar to 250K bits per second at 300 RPM, which is what we are used to. 5 * 1024 is a good format for that. Getting 5 * 1024 with 250K bits per second at 360RPM would require some very tight sector gaps. 500K bits per second at 360 RPM can handle 8 * 1024, or 9 * 1024 with tight gaps. > Not having got anything that supports the useless serial botch interface, > I've not looked at such drives. I've seen an LED map light that plugs into and gets its power from USB. It seemed to work OK. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 26 20:54:53 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 21:54:53 -0400 Subject: SIMM, Address Lines Order? Message-ID: <0ING00BWWD9NA6L2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: SIMM, Address Lines Order? > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:24:22 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Mon, 26 Sep 2005 10:35:16 -0400 >Allison wrote: > >> Tim Olmstead wrote a Z80 Dram interfacing manual thats around the net >> and cover simms as well as the ram on them. Very useful. I have an >> electronic copy locally if needed. >> > >The Z80 has DRAM refresh functionality built right into the processor, >if I'm remembering right. You remember right but there was a gotcha. the Z80 refresh was only 7bits and about half the 64k drams requried a 256 (8bit) refresh. the solution was with later parts you could do cas/ only refresh and that used the Drams (later parts and those used for simms) internal counter for refresh address. Allison From tomj at wps.com Mon Sep 26 20:57:36 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: State of the art In-Reply-To: <200509250111090967.089360E3@10.0.0.252> References: <200509250252.j8P2qYof039268@keith.ezwind.net> <200509250111090967.089360E3@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20050926185236.W1226@fiche.wps.com> On Sun, 25 Sep 2005, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I did locate his website and he apparently is still flogging postscript along with a fw other of his pet projects: > > http://www.tinaja.com > > And, yes, he's advocating Postscript for general math usage (now using Acrobat Distiller). Here's a sample: > > http://www.tinaja.com/text/onesword.html Umm yeah, Don does tend towards enthusiasm for his ideas. I did use his PostScript stuff in a project; PostScript to "turtle graphics" (motion eg. N N N PENDOWN E E E PENUP S S S... where N, S, E are compass directions) followed by simple run-length compression, subsequent data blocked and punched on paper tape and a simple PIC-based box drove an analog plotter, and my favorite, a Tek 565? storage scope. "Real Soon Now" (to quote another crusty SOB) I will finish my microdisintegrator, a surplus stepper-drive XY table (some 30 microinch resolution) for engraving metal with arbitrary text and images. It'll use the same tech to drive the XY table and disintegrator "pen" from postscript. Illustrator to metal! From bretblack at verizon.net Mon Sep 26 12:09:59 2005 From: bretblack at verizon.net (KELLI BLACK) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:09:59 -0400 Subject: IBM Aptiva for parts Message-ID: <000601c5c2bd$25543410$2f01a8c0@bretc8abbntyf6> DO YOU STILL HAVE THE APTIVA YOU FOUND AND WHERE ARE YOU LOCATED,BRET-(pcman45 at verizon.net) From trag at io.com Mon Sep 26 14:37:03 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 14:37:03 -0500 Subject: SIMM, Address Lines Order? In-Reply-To: <200509261700.j8QH0V1W050426@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509261700.j8QH0V1W050426@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 08:18:24 -0600 >From: woodelf >Subject: Re: SIMM, Address Lines Order? >der Mouse wrote: >>>When connecting DRAM chips to the pins of a SIMM (i.e. laying out the >>>traces) does it matter if the order of the address and data lines is >>>preserved? [...] >> >> >> What about refreshes? (This is a question, not a challenge; I do not >> know enough about how dynamic RAM refresh works to know whether this >> really is relevant. But it seems to me that it might be.) >> > >Just that all of them gets refeshed in the alloted time. >Note they just have to be read for refesh. Still you better >check the data sheets if you got them for the fine print. I do have the data sheets. I am planning to use the KM44C16100 from Samsung. Looking at the various refresh options in the datasheet: 1) The RAS only, and Hidden Refresh cycles involve a Row address supplied on the address lines. So, unless there's some undocumented requirement that these address be supplied in a particular order, I don't think that will cause a problem. However, I recognize that sometimes datasheets (and documentation in general) assume general knowledge about the topic. So if there is some implicit assumption about the addresses supplied during a refresh, I'd appreciate someone explaining it to me. 2) During CAS before RAS refresh, the address lines are listed as 'don't cares'. In other weirdness, I never saw the "der Mouse" reply to my posting, so I checked the cctalk archives, on a hunch. There are several replies to my posting in cctalk which never appeared in the cctech digest or archive. Is this normal? How are the two lists organized wrt each other? Does cctalk see all the cctech postings, but not vice versa? It creates difficulties if folks on cctalk reply to cctech postings by emailing to cctalk. Is it assumed that everyone is subscribed to both? I am happy to adjust as necessary. I just don't understand the arrangement, yet. * Jim Battle frustum at pacbell.net writes: > Burst mode DRAMs could be a problem. I mis-wrote. These DRAMs have a Fast Page mode--not a burst mode. I was mislead by discussion of burst reads in "The Guide to the Macintosh Family Hardware" but I believe those burst reads are between the CPU and the memory controller chip in the IIfx. I should have written Fast Page mode, during which a Row address is supplied with the RAS, then a series of Column address is supplied while strobing the CAS for each change in Column address. Because the addresses are explicitly supplied, I don't think that reordering the address pins should cause any problems. A FP read will still stay within the same page (row address) for a given DRAM chip. > One last thing. There were DRAMs that used a different number of >address lines > for RAS than for CAS. Good point. These are 12 X 12, 16M X 4 chips, so that should not be an issue. If they were 13 X 11, I'd need to make sure that the upper two address line orders were preserved? > As a disclaimer, I have designed, implemented and shipped a number (10?) of > DRAM controllers, both in TTL and in ASIC forms, but the most recent to ship > was about 1991, so some details might have faded. The computer for which I'm building the SIMMs was released around 1991, so there's a nice symmetry there. * Allison ajp166 at bellatlantic.net writes: > Tim Olmstead wrote a Z80 Dram interfacing manual Google turned it up. Thank you for pointing it out. * Dwight K. Elvey dwight.elvey at amd.com writes: > Only that the first address lines that are used for refresh > need to be grouped. As example for a 128 cycle refresh, that would > be that one could mix any of the A0-A6 lines. This is because > of how the blocks of RAM are accessed and then selected by > a mux to the output. Can you elaborate on this. I must be missing some key bit of information about refresh. I get that 7 address lines are 128 addresses or blocks of RAM if one is just talking about Row addresses. But how does that mean that some address lines can be mixed and others not? Is there a refresh mode where multiple blocks are chosen at one time--where the upper address bits are defined, but the lower bits are don't cares? That's not mentioned in the datasheet, but just because it isn't mentioned, doesn't mean it isn't assumed. I've been trying to find out which refresh scheme the IIfx uses, but haven't found it in the limited documentation I have here. I have a feeling I've read it somewhere...darn it. Thank you for all the comments and help folks, Jeff From trag at io.com Mon Sep 26 18:09:54 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:09:54 -0500 Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? Message-ID: If a tristate buffer is enabled by its control line, but the input to the buffer is at high-Z is there a typical output? I checked the relevant datasheet, but this situation isn't covered. There's timing for when the buffer is enabled and the input switches from L to H or H to L, but nothing about the input at high-Z. The truth table as written in the datasheet: 2OE 2A 2Y H H H H L L L X Z I need another row for 2OE 2A 2Y H Z ? Where OE is the control, A is the input and Y is the output. I'm still futzing about with this IIfx SIMM idea. I plan to use a pair of SN74ABT241A octal buffers to make the 16M X 4 chips look as if they have separate Din and Dout pins. And I planned to use the WE_ signal as the control to the buffers. However, it occurred to me that the computer might hold WE high at all times except during writes. This would leave the Dout path enabled almost all the time, which might interfere with other activity on the data bus. Once CAS goes high, the Dout of the DRAM chips would go back to high-Z, so the computer designers would figure, leaving WE_ high most times is fine. DRAM output is high-Z unless one just did a read with a CAS signal. But if I'm feeding the DRAM output into a tristate buffer this might not work. The high-Z from the DRAM goes to the buffer as input. The WE_ signal enables the buffer. What comes out the other end of the tristate buffer onto the data bus? If the buffer drives the data bus in this situation, then this won't work. I really don't want to add an AND gate and an inverter so I can change OE for the tristate buffer to WE*CAS'. Of course, if WE_ is floating most of the time, it's not a problem. I just lightly tie OE to GND and when WE floats, the buffer outputs go to high-Z. But I can't count on that. Run off a set with spaces for all the possible control signals I can imagine and experiment? Jeff Walther From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 26 19:51:48 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 17:51:48 -0700 Subject: Odd floppy drives (was: Orbis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200509261751480728.114DD81D@10.0.0.252> On 9/26/2005 at 11:37 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >I am puzzled as to why that would spin at 360rpm. The format would be >possible on a '720K' drive turning at 300 rpm using the normal 250kbps >double-density data rate. If you double the data rate to 500kbps, you >should be able to get more that 5 sectors, even at the faster spindle >speed. Sorry--I tried to answer two emails at the same time and got my wires crossed. It's 8x1024. Data rate is 500K at 360RPM, just like the 8" drives. The NECs even aped the 8" drives, in using "drive ready" lines instead of the silly "try the operation and see if the 765 hangs" nonsense of the PC. I can't remember if DOS-J used the polling feature of the 765,however. Legend has it that the uPD 765 originated at Intel. When Intel couldn't get it working right, the design was swapped to NEC for the fancy 1024x1024 CRT controller chip used on the later APCs. NEC later relicensed the updated design back to Intel and Intel called it the 8272. Anyone know if this is accurate? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 26 22:14:56 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 20:14:56 -0700 Subject: USB Power (was Odd Floppy Drives) In-Reply-To: <20050926182738.K4439@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050926182738.K4439@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200509262014560209.11D0DF9F@10.0.0.252> On 9/26/2005 at 6:48 PM Fred Cisin wrote: >I've seen an LED map light that plugs into and gets its power >from USB. It seemed to work OK. USB is downright handy for stealing power--and easier than stealing it from the keyboard port. I run a script on the server here that has the audio card hooked to a cheap FM transmitter. The transmitter took 3 AA cells, but grabbing +5 from a spare USB port works just fine. 106.7 on any radio in the house gets BBC World Service in the morning, BBC Radio 3 in the afternoon and BBC 7 in the evening. Much better than the commercial-laden garbage that passes for commercial radio here. Broadband has to be good for something, even when you're not sitting in front of the screen. I discovered a carton of Toshiba InTouch modules in the garage--these are USB devices that are basically an LCD display with a bunch of buttons, a volume control and an IR sensor on two boards in a plastic case that was supposed to fit under the monitor of the Infinia. I don't have Windows drivers for the things, so they're pretty useless as-is, but they've got a nice Toshiba 5343DGYTN LCD display board in them. I have the pinout of the display board and how to drive it from a PC parallel port (the controller is an OKI M5260). The USB part of the board is all SMT with an Intel USB controller (basically an 8051 with USB support on it); code seems to be in a 27C256 OTP PROM...shrug. All in original shrink-wrap boxes. If anyone wants one, I'll let them go for my cost--$5 each + whatever it costs to mail. The flotsam keeps washing up on the beach and I'm just trying to keep it out of the landfill or from poisoning some Chinese peasant. Cheers, Chuck From wenz.martin at provac-gmbh.de Tue Sep 27 00:32:35 2005 From: wenz.martin at provac-gmbh.de (Wenz,Martin) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:32:35 +0200 Subject: PDP 11 floppy disk question. Message-ID: Hi, I?ve bought an TEAC FD55GFR184U floppy, but it?s still not working with an MXV22 or RQDX3 controller. I think it must be jumpered to DD, but can?nt find a manual or othes docs. Do you have some hints for configuration? Thanks for answering. Martin wenz.m at web.de From wenz.martin at provac-gmbh.de Tue Sep 27 00:32:37 2005 From: wenz.martin at provac-gmbh.de (Wenz,Martin) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:32:37 +0200 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question Message-ID: Hi Randy, I found your mail to tony Duell were you talked about configuration-problems with an FD55-floppy. I also have the problem to connect an FD55GFR184-drive with an RQDX3 or MXV21 controller and no manual. I tried some jumpers, but it?s not working. Can you help? Martin wenz.m at web.de From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Tue Sep 27 01:15:49 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 08:15:49 +0200 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question References: Message-ID: <001401c5c32a$e7d02db0$2101a8c0@finans> >Fra: "Wenz,Martin" >Til: >Sendt: 27. september 2005 07:32 >Emne: Wild-hair floppy drive question > >I found your mail to tony Duell were you talked about configuration->problems >with an FD55-floppy. I also have the problem to connect an FD55GFR184-drive >with an RQDX3 or MXV21 controller and no manual. I tried some jumpers, but >it?s not working. Can you help? I have the manual for the FD255GFR140. If your drive has the following jumpers : FG E2 U0 U1 D0-D3 LG IS I IU ML RY/DC, it will probably be compatible, in which case I can mail you the relevant pages of the manual Nico From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Sep 27 01:19:29 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 02:19:29 -0400 Subject: Wild-hair floppy drive question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4338E471.3060204@mdrconsult.com> Wenz,Martin wrote: > Hi Randy, > > I found your mail to tony Duell were you talked about configuration-problems > with an FD55-floppy. I also have the problem to connect an FD55GFR184-drive > with an RQDX3 or MXV21 controller and no manual. I tried some jumpers, but > it?s not working. Can you help? Believe it or not, TEAC still makes at least some of the relevant information available on their FTP site. I don't have a link handy, but Google ought to get you there. Doc From Tim at Rikers.org Tue Sep 27 01:24:47 2005 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 00:24:47 -0600 Subject: USB Power In-Reply-To: <200509262014560209.11D0DF9F@10.0.0.252> References: <20050926182738.K4439@shell.lmi.net> <200509262014560209.11D0DF9F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <4338E5AF.3040502@Rikers.org> The driver is still available from Toshiba, but only for windows 95: http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/tais/su/su_sc_modSel.jsp enter desktop/infinia/7200 (for example) then grab the InTouch module driver for windows 95. Course then the fun begins. I recommend Win95 in a VMWare session under Linux and dumping the protocol from there. ;-) -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Sep 27 03:36:09 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:36:09 +0200 Subject: PDP 11 floppy disk question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050927103609.747e2996.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:32:35 +0200 "Wenz,Martin" wrote: > Hi, I?ve bought an TEAC FD55GFR184U floppy, but it?s still not working with > an MXV22 or RQDX3 controller. I think it must be jumpered to DD, but can?nt > find a manual or othes docs. Do you have some hints for configuration? A cite from: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/third-party-disks.txt TEAC FD-55GFR-540-U Jumpers in: I (Roman numeral 1) U0 U1 DC2 FG D0 (for first RX33) D1 (for second RX33) Jumpers out: (all others) Install the terminator, RA1, on the last (or only) drive -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Sep 27 05:23:25 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 11:23:25 +0100 Subject: USB Power (was Odd Floppy Drives) In-Reply-To: <200509262014560209.11D0DF9F@10.0.0.252> References: <20050926182738.K4439@shell.lmi.net> <200509262014560209.11D0DF9F@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <43391D9D.8000303@gjcp.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I discovered a carton of Toshiba InTouch modules in the garage--these are USB devices that are basically an LCD display with a bunch of buttons, a volume control and an IR sensor on two boards in a plastic case that was supposed to fit under the monitor of the Infinia. I don't have Windows drivers for the things, so they're pretty useless as-is, but they've got a nice Toshiba 5343DGYTN LCD display board in them. I have the pinout of the display board and how to drive it from a PC parallel port (the controller is an OKI M5260). The USB part of the board is all SMT with an Intel USB controller (basically an 8051 with USB support on it); code seems to be in a 27C256 OTP PROM...shrug. All in original shrink-wrap boxes. If anyone wants one, I'll let them go for my cost--$5 each + whatever it costs to mail. The flotsam keeps washing up on the beach and I'm just trying to keep it out of the landfill or from poisoning some Chinese peasant. I'll have one. Do you take paypal (and let's not have that big long discussion again. If you fancy working out how to pay someone $5 from the UK, I'd love to hear about it.) Gordon. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 27 06:04:41 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:04:41 -0400 Subject: seeking connection cable for RK07 drive In-Reply-To: References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1ECB@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: On 9/26/05, Tony Duell wrote: > That is correct. The RK06/07 cable has, IIRC, all 40 pins wired (maybe > one is left black that would be used for termination power). The RL cable > has about 26 pins wired. Ah... good to know. I knew from my time in the old days that the cables were not the same, but I never scoped them out. > DEC would not aprove of this, but I have a DW11-B... > to a couple of RK07-like bulkhead connectors, then through a couple of RK07 > cables... into the other half of the DW11-B. Nice. I may have to steal that idea. -ethan From robo58 at optonline.net Tue Sep 27 07:47:53 2005 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 08:47:53 -0400 Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? References: Message-ID: <000901c5c361$ada0fca0$6401a8c0@P43200> Most TTL (74xxx) series parts have pull up resistors on their inputs so they will typically interpret a High-Z condition as a "1" or high input. I'm not sure what you're trying to do with the separate Din/Dout configuration. Are you trying to interface the 16Mx4 chip onto an existing motherboard or memory card or design a new add in card? That info would help with the advice. Robo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Walther" To: Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? > If a tristate buffer is enabled by its control line, but the input to the > buffer is at high-Z is there a typical output? > > I checked the relevant datasheet, but this situation isn't covered. > There's timing for when the buffer is enabled and the input switches from > L to H or H to L, but nothing about the input at high-Z. > > The truth table as written in the datasheet: > > 2OE 2A 2Y > H H H > H L L > L X Z > > I need another row for > > 2OE 2A 2Y > H Z ? > > Where OE is the control, A is the input and Y is the output. > > I'm still futzing about with this IIfx SIMM idea. I plan to use a pair > of SN74ABT241A octal buffers to make the 16M X 4 chips look as if they > have separate Din and Dout pins. And I planned to use the WE_ signal as > the control to the buffers. > > However, it occurred to me that the computer might hold WE high at all > times except during writes. This would leave the Dout path enabled almost > all the time, which might interfere with other activity on the data bus. > > Once CAS goes high, the Dout of the DRAM chips would go back to high-Z, so > the computer designers would figure, leaving WE_ high most times is fine. > DRAM output is high-Z unless one just did a read with a CAS signal. > > But if I'm feeding the DRAM output into a tristate buffer this might not > work. The high-Z from the DRAM goes to the buffer as input. The WE_ > signal enables the buffer. What comes out the other end of the tristate > buffer onto the data bus? If the buffer drives the data bus in this > situation, then this won't work. > > I really don't want to add an AND gate and an inverter so I can change OE > for the tristate buffer to WE*CAS'. > > Of course, if WE_ is floating most of the time, it's not a problem. I just > lightly tie OE to GND and when WE floats, the buffer outputs go to high-Z. > But I can't count on that. > > Run off a set with spaces for all the possible control signals I can > imagine and experiment? > > Jeff Walther > From fm.arnold at gmx.net Tue Sep 27 09:24:06 2005 From: fm.arnold at gmx.net (Frank Arnold) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:24:06 +0100 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: > >Message: 28 >Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:42:48 +0200 >From: "Gooijen, Henk" >Subject: RE: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 > >> -----Original Message----- >> On Sep 26 2005, 8:40, Gooijen, Henk wrote: >> >> >> > <-- M7270 -LSI11/2--> <--- M8044 MSV11----> ================== >> > <------ empty ------> <--- M7940 DLV11----> | o o __ __ __ | >> > <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> | ~~ ~~ ~~ | >> > <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> ================== >> > Henk, there is no bootstrap in this system.... > >The FieldGuide says that a few lines are used for something else, but >I expect (hope) that the M7270 and the M7264 usage of all connections >is identical. No, I think only the LSI11 suplies refresh to the bus, LSI11/02 does not. They use some of the sspare lines for that, that much later got used for Adressbits 19-21 once Q-bus got Q22 > >Regarding the M8018 WCS option: is this "just" a chip, like FIS or the >big CIS one? Those are LSI11/23 options... >I thought it was a board (module) as the M number suggests. >Anybody here has a M8018 WCS and can tell more about it? > Unfortunately I dont have this (still hunting), but yes, I is a board. It takes only the power from the Q-bus and connects with a flatcable to the microm socket on the LSI-11 module. I also heard the fact that this works (or was DEC-supported) only on the quad LSI11, but can't see a good reason for this, as the chipset is identical. It even has the empty socket to connect the WCS-option. Maybe the engineering drawings will tell more. Frank From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 27 09:05:30 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:05:30 +0100 Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <433951AA.9090004@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >>I've been trying to get hold of one of these and a 380z for ages, they >>seem to be quite scarce now. Unless I'm looking in the wrong places. > > > I've never seen the floppy drive for the 480Z. From what I can tell, it > linked to one of the serial ports on the 480Z, and used a synchronous > protocol (both ends of the link were Z80-SIO chips). IIRC it's the same > PCB as was used for ther intellegent disk controller in the 380Z, which > contained a Z80, RAM, and the serial chip. I think we've been here before :-) Yep, you're absolutely correct - it does use the same controller in the drive. I've got one of the (museum-owned) drives back in the UK, along with the Shared Disc software so that the drive could be made visible across a network (one step down from the full CHAIN network fileserver that I have). One day when I have time I'll try and make it Do Something... I'm lacking the connecting cable, but as there are SIOs at either end that shouldn't be a problem to figure out. I believe that the 480Z hosting the drive then becomes a decicated fileserver in this setup; it can't be used to run normal programs. The software on EBay would sure be nice though as it seems that's designed to allow a single user to boot CP/M from a 480Z, without futzing around setting up a full network (not all 480Zs come with the analogue side of the network hardware fitted anyway) > I suspect the ROM was different though. Hmm, can't check from here - I left all the ROM dumps at home. Actually, it could well be the same. I think the stock 380Z controller ROM supports both bussed and serial transfer modes - so it just needs the board fitted in the 480Z drive to notice that it's hooked up to a serial link and everything should just work (assuming the 480Z talks the same protocol) > 480Z machines are hard to find now, although there' a plastic-cased one > on E-bay at the momnet, I think. The older metal-cased version (black > painted, like a 380Z keyboard) is, I am told. rarer. That's certainly been my (limited) experience. Shame really, as they were pretty good machines - a lot better than much of the other 8-bit stuff floating around at the time IMHO. Somewhat let down in the graphics department though, even with the hi-res hardware fitted - plus of course they don't have all the nice expansion options of a BBC micro. (I've got a plastic-cased 480Z set aside for you btw, just in case you'd forgotten!) Lack of software's the main problem with the machines though - they never really hit the home market, and much of the educational software that was produced for them seems to have vanished :-( cheers Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 27 09:18:23 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:18:23 -0400 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <0INH00HWMBOMUQ30@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: (no subject) > From: Frank Arnold > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:24:06 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >>Message: 28 >>Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:42:48 +0200 >>From: "Gooijen, Henk" >>Subject: RE: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> On Sep 26 2005, 8:40, Gooijen, Henk wrote: >>> >>> >>> > <-- M7270 -LSI11/2--> <--- M8044 MSV11----> ================== >>> > <------ empty ------> <--- M7940 DLV11----> | o o __ __ __ | >>> > <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> | ~~ ~~ ~~ | >>> > <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> ================== >>> > > >Henk, there is no bootstrap in this system.... > >> >>The FieldGuide says that a few lines are used for something else, but >>I expect (hope) that the M7270 and the M7264 usage of all connections >>is identical. > >No, I think only the LSI11 suplies refresh to the bus, LSI11/02 does not. >They use some of the sspare lines for that, that much later got used for >Adressbits 19-21 once Q-bus got Q22 Correct on refresh, the 7270 does not provide it (not needed for 8044 memory). However, the unused microcode lines are not used for refresh. Those are use for special (unimplmented) microcode. >>Regarding the M8018 WCS option: is this "just" a chip, like FIS or the >>big CIS one? > >Those are LSI11/23 options... The M8018 KUV11-AA is for the M7264 (LSI-11, KD11-f), I have also tested it with M7270 (LSI11/2)(sort of a hack). There was a microcode WCS option for the 11/23. It is also a board. I don't think it was ever sold. There was a FPU option M8188 (FPF11) a quad width board for the 11/23 that was sold. >Unfortunately I dont have this (still hunting), but yes, I is a board. It >takes only the power from the Q-bus and connects with a flatcable to the >microm socket on the LSI-11 module. >I also heard the fact that this works (or was DEC-supported) only on the >quad LSI11, but can't see a good reason for this, as the chipset is >identical. It even has the empty socket to connect the WCS-option. >Maybe the engineering drawings will tell more. It was design specific for the M7264-YC though it seemed to work with any of the M7264 or M7270 modules (microcode address specific caveat). The DEC supported config was on the M7264-YC. The difference is that each microm socket has a unique microcode address and is diagnostic specific. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 27 09:20:42 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:20:42 -0400 Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? Message-ID: <0INH00FWPBSHJQ60@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> I think his issue is trying to seperate the common data bus to Din and Dout for the chips. However with most drams that can be handled with WE/and Ras/ timing if memory serves thus avoiding that tristate buffer. Allison > >Subject: Re: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? > From: "ROBO5.8" > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 08:47:53 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >Most TTL (74xxx) series parts have pull up resistors on their inputs so they >will typically interpret a High-Z condition as a "1" or high input. > >I'm not sure what you're trying to do with the separate Din/Dout >configuration. Are you trying to interface the 16Mx4 chip onto an existing >motherboard or memory card or design a new add in card? That info would >help with the advice. > >Robo > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jeff Walther" >To: >Sent: Monday, September 26, 2005 7:09 PM >Subject: Re: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? > > >> If a tristate buffer is enabled by its control line, but the input to the >> buffer is at high-Z is there a typical output? >> >> I checked the relevant datasheet, but this situation isn't covered. >> There's timing for when the buffer is enabled and the input switches from >> L to H or H to L, but nothing about the input at high-Z. >> >> The truth table as written in the datasheet: >> >> 2OE 2A 2Y >> H H H >> H L L >> L X Z >> >> I need another row for >> >> 2OE 2A 2Y >> H Z ? >> >> Where OE is the control, A is the input and Y is the output. >> >> I'm still futzing about with this IIfx SIMM idea. I plan to use a pair >> of SN74ABT241A octal buffers to make the 16M X 4 chips look as if they >> have separate Din and Dout pins. And I planned to use the WE_ signal as >> the control to the buffers. >> >> However, it occurred to me that the computer might hold WE high at all >> times except during writes. This would leave the Dout path enabled almost >> all the time, which might interfere with other activity on the data bus. >> >> Once CAS goes high, the Dout of the DRAM chips would go back to high-Z, so >> the computer designers would figure, leaving WE_ high most times is fine. >> DRAM output is high-Z unless one just did a read with a CAS signal. >> >> But if I'm feeding the DRAM output into a tristate buffer this might not >> work. The high-Z from the DRAM goes to the buffer as input. The WE_ >> signal enables the buffer. What comes out the other end of the tristate >> buffer onto the data bus? If the buffer drives the data bus in this >> situation, then this won't work. >> >> I really don't want to add an AND gate and an inverter so I can change OE >> for the tristate buffer to WE*CAS'. >> >> Of course, if WE_ is floating most of the time, it's not a problem. I just >> lightly tie OE to GND and when WE floats, the buffer outputs go to high-Z. >> But I can't count on that. >> >> Run off a set with spaces for all the possible control signals I can >> imagine and experiment? >> >> Jeff Walther >> > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 27 09:23:26 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:23:26 -0400 Subject: Available for pickup. Message-ID: <0INH00FUMBX0JG70@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> I take it that I can notify the owner that these systems are of no interest to anyone here. I cant take them, too much and too big. Allison > >Subject: Available for pickup. > From: Allison > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:42:52 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >I do not hold these but I've been asked if I want them. > >Allison > > >>I sent this earlier to arrl.org, but I thought I would also try here. These >>are free to the first taker, but that may be the rubbish man ! >>Apollo 400 >>Apollo 715s/50 >>Apollo 715t/50 >>(2) Apollo 715/64 >>Apollo 400 > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 27 09:53:14 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:53:14 -0400 Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? References: Message-ID: <17209.23770.83763.483352@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Walther writes: Jeff> If a tristate buffer is enabled by its control line, but the Jeff> input to the buffer is at high-Z is there a typical output? Not necessarily. Hi-Z means the source of your input is not driving it. That means it is equivalent to an unconnected input. Does your device have an internal pull-up or pull-down? If yes, then an unconnected input is equivalent to a high input, or low input, respectively. If it doesn't have a pull-up or pull-down, then you have a floating input, which means the behavior is undefined. It may be bouncing on and off due to noise; it may end up behaving like low in one chip and high in another of the same type, based on process variations; it may change from one to the other as temperature changes. Oh yes, and if it's CMOS it will probably draw more current than you expect because you're not driving it to a well defined high or low state. You should always have a defined input signal for all inputs. That can be an internal pull-up/down; it can be an external one; or it can be that you arrange for it always to be explicitly driven (always exactly one source *not* in high-Z mode). paul From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Sep 27 09:54:24 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:54:24 -0700 Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/26/05, Jeff Walther wrote: > > If a tristate buffer is enabled by its control line, but the input to > the buffer is at high-Z is there a typical output? If there is it probably varies between parts. If you need a defined output for tristated inputs you should pull the inputs up or down. Eric From GOOI at oce.nl Tue Sep 27 10:18:41 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 17:18:41 +0200 Subject: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 Message-ID: <0456A13F7932824EB47FE10CCDB8DECD46AD1E@gd-mail04.oce.nl> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison > Sent: dinsdag 27 september 2005 16:18 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: (no subject) > > > > >Subject: (no subject) > > From: Frank Arnold > > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:24:06 +0100 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >> > >>Message: 28 > >>Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:42:48 +0200 > >>From: "Gooijen, Henk" > >>Subject: RE: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> On Sep 26 2005, 8:40, Gooijen, Henk wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> <-- M7270 -LSI11/2--> <--- M8044 MSV11----> > >>> <------ empty ------> <--- M7940 DLV11----> > >>> <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> > >>> <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> > > > > >Henk, there is no bootstrap in this system.... > > > >> > >>The FieldGuide says that a few lines are used for something > >>else, but I expect (hope) that the M7270 and the M7264 usage > >>of all connections is identical. > > > >No, I think only the LSI11 suplies refresh to the bus, > >LSI11/02 does not. > >They use some of the sspare lines for that, that much later got > >used for Adressbits 19-21 once Q-bus got Q22 > > Correct on refresh, the 7270 does not provide it (not needed > for 8044 memory). > However, the unused microcode lines are not used for refresh. > Those are use for special (unimplmented) microcode. > > >>Regarding the M8018 WCS option: is this "just" a chip, like > >>FIS or the big CIS one? > > > >Those are LSI11/23 options... > > The M8018 KUV11-AA is for the M7264 (LSI-11, KD11-f), I have > also tested it with M7270 (LSI11/2)(sort of a hack). > > There was a microcode WCS option for the 11/23. It is also a > board. I don't think it was ever sold. There was a FPU option > M8188 (FPF11) a quad width board for the 11/23 that was sold. > > >Unfortunately I dont have this (still hunting), but yes, it > >is a board. It takes only the power from the Q-bus and connects > >with a flatcable to the microm socket on the LSI-11 module. > >I also heard the fact that this works (or was DEC-supported) only > >on the quad LSI11, but can't see a good reason for this, as the > >chipset is identical. It even has the empty socket to connect the > >WCS-option. Maybe the engineering drawings will tell more. > > It was design specific for the M7264-YC though it seemed to > work with any of the M7264 or M7270 modules (microcode > address specific caveat). > The DEC supported config was on the M7264-YC. The difference > is that each microm socket has a unique microcode address and > is diagnostic specific. > > Allison Thanks, Frank and Allison. I guess, now is a good moment to start reading the LSI-11 handbook and to look out for a bootstrap kind of module ! Is there a specific module to look for, or are there several possibilities? Remember, this system only has 4 slots (almost 2 occupied), and I want to add at least modules to get some parallel I/O (TTL) lines, and to boot the system from (Pete Collum's RXV11) ... The idea that I have for this system is the following. I want to use a small 486 system as terminal and mass storage. The parallel I/O will interface to a filter-based RTTY demodulator. Software (to be written) will turn this setup to a telex reception station (transmitting RTTY will follow!) I know that many programs already exist for this (not on PDP-11), but I want to learn MACRO-11 and learning a language goes best if you have an application idea. I expect it will not be difficult, after I learned the way MACRO-11 wants its assembly text, because it looks quite like M68000 mnemonics. That will probably cause some pitfalls, but I must look up all the PDP-11 mnemonics in the beginning anyway. Fun job for this winter! 73, - Henk, PA8PDP. From vp at cs.drexel.edu Tue Sep 27 10:37:19 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 11:37:19 -0400 Subject: EMS ROMs for the HP-87 Message-ID: <20050927153719.0A847200CFB8@mail.cs.drexel.edu> Some people have asked me for such ROMs (which allow an HP87 or HP86 computer to access newer disc drives such as the HP-9122) in the past. There is an eBay auction at http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-87-ROMS-5-Each_W0QQitemZ6806475882QQcategoryZ172QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem for three EMS ROMs. Note that the auction is NOT run by me, nor do I know the seller. **vp From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 27 11:12:20 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 12:12:20 -0400 Subject: Available for pickup. In-Reply-To: <0INH00FUMBX0JG70@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0INH00FUMBX0JG70@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <43396F64.5000507@internet1.net> Allison, You didn't post any location, but specified pickup. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Allison wrote: > I take it that I can notify the owner that these systems are of no interest > to anyone here. I cant take them, too much and too big. > > Allison From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Tue Sep 27 11:14:05 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 09:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050927161405.25881.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Walther wrote: > If a tristate buffer is enabled by its control line, > but the input to > the buffer is at high-Z is there a typical output? > High, but with less noise immunity then if you tied the input high. The immunity could vary with the TTL family, but leaving unused inputs floating was standard practice with "standard" TTL, for instance. __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Sep 27 11:14:15 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 12:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SIMM, Address Lines Order? In-Reply-To: References: <200509261700.j8QH0V1W050426@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200509271618.MAA09282@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > In other weirdness, I never saw the "der Mouse" reply to my posting, > so I checked the cctalk archives, on a hunch. There are several > replies to my posting in cctalk which never appeared in the cctech > digest or archive. Is this normal? Relatively. > How are the two lists organized wrt each other? Does cctalk see all > the cctech postings, but not vice versa? Right. Or at least that's how I understand it. It's been a while, and in any case I'm not authoritative wrt how the lists are set up, but my understanding is that cctech is automatically gated to cctalk; cctalk is human-filtered, with approved stuff (ie, stuff that a human thinks is on-topic enough) being gated to cctech. > It creates difficulties if folks on cctalk reply to cctech postings > by emailing to cctalk. Yes, if the (human) filter mentioned above doesn't think the reply is on-topic enough for cctech. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From Tim at Rikers.org Tue Sep 27 11:18:34 2005 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:18:34 -0600 Subject: Available for pickup. In-Reply-To: <0INH00FUMBX0JG70@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0INH00FUMBX0JG70@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <433970DA.40707@Rikers.org> They are not that big, are they? Are they the same as these systems? http://www.schrotthal.de/apollo/ They look like normal workstations. There was just someone on the list asking for oddball workstations, no? Looks like they will run pa-risc Linux. And many came with color 1024x768 displays. Where are they located? Perhaps they are just not old enough? Allison wrote: > I take it that I can notify the owner that these systems are of no interest > to anyone here. I cant take them, too much and too big. > > Allison > > > >>Subject: Available for pickup. >> From: Allison >> Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:42:52 -0400 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> >>I do not hold these but I've been asked if I want them. >> >>Allison >> >> >> >>>I sent this earlier to arrl.org, but I thought I would also try here. These >>>are free to the first taker, but that may be the rubbish man ! >>>Apollo 400 >>>Apollo 715s/50 >>>Apollo 715t/50 >>>(2) Apollo 715/64 >>>Apollo 400 >> >> -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From fryers at gmail.com Tue Sep 27 11:32:02 2005 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 17:32:02 +0100 Subject: Available for pickup. In-Reply-To: <433970DA.40707@Rikers.org> References: <0INH00FUMBX0JG70@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <433970DA.40707@Rikers.org> Message-ID: All, On 9/27/05, Tim Riker wrote: > They are not that big, are they? Are they the same as these systems? > > http://www.schrotthal.de/apollo/ > > They look like normal workstations. There was just someone on the list > asking for oddball workstations, no? Yes. These are the more recent HP - Apollo workstations. The older Apollo workstations people are interested in are the workstations prior to the DN3000. Although even the DN3000's are becoming scarce now. > Looks like they will run pa-risc Linux. And many came with color > 1024x768 displays. The 400's are 68040 (or was it 68050) based. They will run NetBSD, DomainOS and probably some version of HPUX. I ran one as a glorified X-Term for a couple of years using OpenBSD as the underlying OS. Seemed to work quite well but X tunnelled through ssh was rather painful! AFAIK the 700's are PA Risk. I seem to remember a friend installing NextSTEP on one at some stage in the past. I guess there is also a NetBSD port and a version of HPUX. They will not run DomainOS and hence are not true Apollos (not that I am biased or anything). > Where are they located? On a different land mass to me? > Perhaps they are just not old enough? They are old enough, well over 10 years by now. [...] Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Sep 27 11:35:02 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 12:35:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? In-Reply-To: <20050927161405.25881.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050927161405.25881.qmail@web51614.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200509271640.MAA09448@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> If a tristate buffer is enabled by its control line, but the input >> to the buffer is at high-Z is there a typical output? > High, but with less noise immunity then if you tied the input high. > The immunity could vary with the TTL family, but leaving unused > inputs floating was standard practice with "standard" TTL, for > instance. Yes - but note that the chip may not be TTL. The message said SN74ABT241As, and I think ABT is one of the recent "TTL-compatible" families, logic that can be connected directly to TTL power and signals but not actually TTL. Thus, while TTL inputs do generally float high, that may not be relevant to 74ABTxxx chips. (It also may; I don't know enough details of the 74ABT input structure.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Sep 27 11:45:25 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 09:45:25 -0700 Subject: Micro-fiche to PDF In-Reply-To: <200509261757.j8QHvZIY008777@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200509261757.j8QHvZIY008777@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <43397725.9000801@msm.umr.edu> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>You can use Adobe Exchange and install the Adobe PDFwriter. All you >>do is using your scanning software, place the microfiche onto a scanner >>with a blank white heavy stock sheet of paper behind the film, and scan >>the film to the pdfwriter and save it. There are some PD versions of >>the PDFwriter out on the net as well if you don't want to purchase the >>Adobe Exchange package. I have an HP Scanjet and I use its Copier >>program and I just tell it to copy my files to an adobe pdfwriter file. >> >> > >Just what resolution scanner are you using? I'm not aware of any standard >scanner that is high enough resolution to scan Microfiche, and have it be >readable. > > Zane > > > > I agree with the above comments about the software. I just scanned two fiche with an Epson transparency scanner. The above will probably not work, unless you have the correct scanner. I have never had any luck scanning transparencies, or slides with just backing with white. The normal backing of a scanner is usually the best white that can be delivered, and my experience with transparencies is usually a black blot. I bought one of the higher end Epson scanners to scan some 4x5 negatives, and several 5 x 7 glass negatives that my parents had. I figured that even at a ridiculous cost, it was cheaper than my experiences with custom photo processing labs overall, and if I scaned them, I could do whatever I wished then. I scanned the fiche at 3200bpi real, and was able to just move the reference box over each image on the preview page, and scan all the page images. Each one was scanned at about 1200 x 1500 jpegs in my case, as I didn't go to adobe. I plan to have mine on a web page soon, and could send you the url when I get permission to get them online. I believe the result is as good as I would have gotten if I had scanned the original documents at 200 dpi in the original. Epson's suite includes an OCR package, and it worked at > 50% but not at 100% efficiency. It would take some considerable work to get the OCR to 100% because it did not seem to be that good with the typewrite font used, not due to the quality of the scanning. the only places I had any problem was where the original fiche didn't result in an image having uniform contrast because it would not lay down completely on the original fiche. This is only a problem for the OCR software, not for a human reader. Also, my scanning didnt include any cleanup of the orientation problems in the original scanning. I had aligned the fiche very carefully to be square with the bed of the scanner, but the original transfer to fiche was not uniform, so there was some rotation of the document images that could be cleaned up to make them all square as well. Jim From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Sep 27 11:58:41 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 12:58:41 -0400 Subject: Micro-fiche to PDF References: <200509261757.j8QHvZIY008777@onyx.spiritone.com> <43397725.9000801@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <17209.31297.892106.302240@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "jim" == jim stephens writes: jim> I agree with the above comments about the software. I just jim> scanned two fiche with an Epson transparency scanner. The above jim> will probably not work, unless you have the correct scanner. I jim> have never had any luck scanning transparencies, or slides with jim> just backing with white. The normal backing of a scanner is jim> usually the best white that can be delivered, and my experience jim> with transparencies is usually a black blot. I've had the same experience. jim> I bought one of the higher end Epson scanners to scan some 4x5 jim> negatives, and several 5 x 7 glass negatives that my parents jim> had. I figured that even at a ridiculous cost, ... FWIW, I now use a Umax 4550 which has a transparency handler and was rather inexpensive among scanners with that feature. Driver support is not the greatest (in particular, none for Mac though third party drivers are available and excellent). But it works and is fast thanks to Firewire. On the other hand, even its max resolution would be marginal at beast for fiche. paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 27 12:08:36 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:08:36 -0400 Subject: Available for pickup. Message-ID: <0INH005I5JK9OXF9@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> These are local to me, eastern MA area. I'll contanct the owner to be more definitive. Allison > >Subject: Re: Available for pickup. > From: Allison > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:23:26 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >I take it that I can notify the owner that these systems are of no interest >to anyone here. I cant take them, too much and too big. > >Allison > > >> >>Subject: Available for pickup. >> From: Allison >> Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:42:52 -0400 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> >> >>I do not hold these but I've been asked if I want them. >> >>Allison >> >> >>>I sent this earlier to arrl.org, but I thought I would also try here. These >>>are free to the first taker, but that may be the rubbish man ! >>>Apollo 400 >>>Apollo 715s/50 >>>Apollo 715t/50 >>>(2) Apollo 715/64 >>>Apollo 400 >> >> From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 27 12:57:55 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:57:55 -0400 Subject: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 Message-ID: <0INH005UNLUGOXL9@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270 > From: "Gooijen, Henk" > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 17:18:41 +0200 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > >Thanks, Frank and Allison. >I guess, now is a good moment to start reading the LSI-11 handbook >and to look out for a bootstrap kind of module ! Is there a specific >module to look for, or are there several possibilities? Remember, >this system only has 4 slots (almost 2 occupied), and I want to add >at least modules to get some parallel I/O (TTL) lines, and to boot >the system from (Pete Collum's RXV11) ... Rev11 is available most commonly with RXV11/21 floppy boot and others that exist for paper tape boot and maybe other disks. It's not essential as a boot prom as most boots are small and uODT can be used to hand load them. >The idea that I have for this system is the following. >I want to use a small 486 system as terminal and mass storage. >The parallel I/O will interface to a filter-based RTTY demodulator. >Software (to be written) will turn this setup to a telex reception >station (transmitting RTTY will follow!) I know that many programs >already exist for this (not on PDP-11), but I want to learn MACRO-11 >and learning a language goes best if you have an application idea. >I expect it will not be difficult, after I learned the way MACRO-11 >wants its assembly text, because it looks quite like M68000 mnemonics. >That will probably cause some pitfalls, but I must look up all the >PDP-11 mnemonics in the beginning anyway. RTTY can also be done with a serial line card. The only thing is baud rate setting (external switch) for multiple rates. If you can find a DLV11J (thats 4 serial ports on one dual width card) or MXV11 (2 serial ports +ram +rom) that would save slots. One thought, a M7270(KD-11F) OR M8186(KDF-11A) and M8047(mxv11) will be a complete system on two dual width cards (cpu, 2 serial, ram and eprom). It will need about 4A of +5 and under 1A of +12 power. An alternate CPU is the falcon card M8063 (Kxt11 SBC11/21) which also has ram, Eprom, two serial lines and parallel io with a Qbus interface. Common as can be but rarely seen as they are often embedded in larger systems (like a NC milling machine). The above was typical of how LSI-11 series componenets were used in embedded systems. The instruction set for PDP11 is more regular than 68k and very orthoginal CISC. Do read the various dec PDP-11 programming books as it's a flexible machine and relocatable code is easy to do. Allison From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Sep 27 12:59:14 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:59:14 -0400 (edt) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( Message-ID: <200509271759.NAA15495@wordstock.com> http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/ptech/09/27/palm.microsoft.ap/index.html From news at computercollector.com Tue Sep 27 13:09:22 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:09:22 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <200509271759.NAA15495@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200509271817.j8RIHb0s002697@keith.ezwind.net> I guess the original Pilot is becoming increasingly vintage. :) Hopefully my Treo 650 won't be! Palm's CEO insists the Windows version is additive to, not replacing, their current platform. I sincerely hope he means that -- but I'm skeptical. LOL, but if people starting tossing around their PalmOS devices as "collectible", then maybe I'll benefit from the newfound interest in vintage handhelds. (Shamless self-promotion: http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm) - Evan "Oh how Newton fans hate me" Koblentz -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Pope Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 1:59 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: PalmOS no more? :( http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/ptech/09/27/palm.microsoft.ap/index.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 27 13:51:35 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 11:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <200509271759.NAA15495@wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at Sep 27, 2005 01:59:14 PM Message-ID: <200509271851.j8RIpZFe006528@onyx.spiritone.com> > http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/ptech/09/27/palm.microsoft.ap/index.html > I've got to admit, this concerns me. I've got software that requires PalmOS, and I don't really want to have to go out and buy a WinCE version, as that will require upgrading far more expensive software that works with it. :^( Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 27 12:53:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:53:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: SIMM, Address Lines Order? In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Walther" at Sep 26, 5 02:37:03 pm Message-ID: > 1) The RAS only, and Hidden Refresh cycles involve a Row address > supplied on the address lines. So, unless there's some undocumented > requirement that these address be supplied in a particular order, I > don't think that will cause a problem. However, I recognize that > sometimes datasheets (and documentation in general) assume general > knowledge about the topic. So if there is some implicit assumption > about the addresses supplied during a refresh, I'd appreciate someone > explaining it to me. I've never head of such a requirement, only that all 2^n states of the address lines are used within a certain time. The only issue is if only some of the address lines to the RAM are used for refresh, then you have to make sure those are kept together (but you can scramble their order, just as you can scramble the order of the ones not used in the refresh operation). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 27 12:57:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:57:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Walther" at Sep 26, 5 06:09:54 pm Message-ID: > > If a tristate buffer is enabled by its control line, but the input to > the buffer is at high-Z is there a typical output? No, the input will float. _Most_ TTL buffers have inputs that should float high (so the output will be whatever you should get for a high input), CMOS ones will pick up random noise. A very few buffers will float low, I think. If you require the output to be at a known state under such condtions, you need to ensure the input is at a known state too, e.g. by adding a pull-up resistor. One thing you can be sure of is that the output will not be high-impedance if the buffer is enabled. The bit of your message that I deleted seems to suggest you were hoping it would be. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 27 13:01:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 19:01:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: USB stuff In-Reply-To: <20050926182738.K4439@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 26, 5 06:48:19 pm Message-ID: > > I've seen an LED map light that plugs into and gets its power > from USB. It seemed to work OK. I am wonderign why you'd want that. Personally, I find a PSU easier to move around than a computer. If it's for use in a car, I'll either use the cigar lighter, or add a power output socket somewhere sane. I do curse IBM for not providing a +5V output on the printer port, though :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 27 13:08:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 19:08:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: 480z system disk on ebayu In-Reply-To: <433951AA.9090004@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 27, 5 03:05:30 pm Message-ID: > > I've never seen the floppy drive for the 480Z. From what I can tell, it > > linked to one of the serial ports on the 480Z, and used a synchronous > > protocol (both ends of the link were Z80-SIO chips). IIRC it's the same > > PCB as was used for ther intellegent disk controller in the 380Z, which > > contained a Z80, RAM, and the serial chip. > > I think we've been here before :-) Yep, you're absolutely correct - it > does use the same controller in the drive. I've got one of the > (museum-owned) drives back in the UK, along with the Shared Disc > software so that the drive could be made visible across a network (one > step down from the full CHAIN network fileserver that I have). One day > when I have time I'll try and make it Do Something... > > I'm lacking the connecting cable, but as there are SIOs at either end > that shouldn't be a problem to figure out. The pinout of the 480Z port is known, I think it's on the web somewhere, if not I have the manual. There's a 380Z service manual on the web somwehre which has a schematic of the intellegent disk controller board. I assume it's just a matter of matching up signals, or doing the obvious null-modem swap. > > I believe that the 480Z hosting the drive then becomes a decicated > fileserver in this setup; it can't be used to run normal programs. I can't see why it should. There's enough intellegence on the disk controller board to act as a simple fileserver, I can't see why it would need the 480Z's processor as well. 2 Z80's just to run a floppy drive is excessive! > > The software on EBay would sure be nice though as it seems that's > designed to allow a single user to boot CP/M from a 480Z, without > futzing around setting up a full network (not all 480Zs come with the > analogue side of the network hardware fitted anyway) Mine didn't.... > > > 480Z machines are hard to find now, although there' a plastic-cased one > > on E-bay at the momnet, I think. The older metal-cased version (black > > painted, like a 380Z keyboard) is, I am told. rarer. > > That's certainly been my (limited) experience. Shame really, as they > were pretty good machines - a lot better than much of the other 8-bit > stuff floating around at the time IMHO. Somewhat let down in the I don't think they were exactly cheap, though.... > graphics department though, even with the hi-res hardware fitted - plus > of course they don't have all the nice expansion options of a BBC micro. No, no second processors, for example. But there was a user port (not as good as the Beeb one), and an optional GPIB port. > > (I've got a plastic-cased 480Z set aside for you btw, just in case you'd > forgotten!) When you get back here, I'll have to find time to visit... -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 27 14:01:09 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:01:09 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <200509271851.j8RIpZFe006528@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200509271851.j8RIpZFe006528@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <433996F5.2040307@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/ptech/09/27/palm.microsoft.ap/index.html >> > > > I've got to admit, this concerns me. I've got software that requires > PalmOS, and I don't really want to have to go out and buy a WinCE version, > as that will require upgrading far more expensive software that works with > it. :^( Against my better judgement, I tried Windows Mobile. Never again. I'd rather use an old worn-out piece-of-shit PalmOS machine than a WindowsCE machine. Peace... Sridhar From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Sep 27 14:18:08 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:18:08 -0500 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <4331E633.9050505@bellsouth.net> References: <200509210718390296.04F53DC8@smtp.comcast.net> <3.0.6.16.20050921113149.3317a39e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <4331E633.9050505@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <43399AF0.2080900@oldskool.org> Glen Goodwin wrote: > > Months later E-bay pulled $800 from > > the seller's account for the transaction with no explaination. > > Solution: don't keep funds in your PayPal account. This doesn't work -- A seller friend of mine had his bank account go from $0 to $80 overdrawn (ie. -$80) thanks to Paypal. Bank fees mounted daily and he just had to sit there and eat it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 27 14:18:36 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 12:18:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USB stuff In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Sep 27, 2005 07:01:06 PM Message-ID: <200509271918.j8RJIaJx007191@onyx.spiritone.com> > > I've seen an LED map light that plugs into and gets its power > > from USB. It seemed to work OK. > > I am wonderign why you'd want that. Personally, I find a PSU easier to > move around than a computer. If it's for use in a car, I'll either use > the cigar lighter, or add a power output socket somewhere sane. > > I do curse IBM for not providing a +5V output on the printer port, though :-) > > -tony > I was about to provide a couple examples of why one might want this, only to realize that they're both pretty silly. Good question :^) Of course I've also seen USB fans... The old saying about a fool and their money comes to mind :^) Zane From mmaginnis at gmail.com Tue Sep 27 14:19:36 2005 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Mike Maginnis) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:19:36 -0600 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <200509271817.j8RIHb0s002697@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200509271759.NAA15495@wordstock.com> <200509271817.j8RIHb0s002697@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 9/27/05, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > I guess the original Pilot is becoming increasingly vintage. :) > > Hopefully my Treo 650 won't be! Palm's CEO insists the Windows version is > additive to, not replacing, their current platform. I sincerely hope he > means that -- but I'm skeptical. > > LOL, but if people starting tossing around their PalmOS devices as > "collectible", then maybe I'll benefit from the newfound interest in vintage > handhelds. (Shamless self-promotion: > http://www.snarc.net/pda/pda-treatise.htm) > > - Evan "Oh how Newton fans hate me" Koblentz > > I saw no mention of Palm's PDA line (Tungsten, Lifedrive, etc). Judging from Palm's reasons given in the article, they wanted Wince's improved voice and call management features. I doubt very seriously that Wince will be "appearing on a Lifedrive near you." - Mike From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 27 14:20:43 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 12:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <433996F5.2040307@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Sep 27, 2005 03:01:09 PM Message-ID: <200509271920.j8RJKhgG007240@onyx.spiritone.com> > Against my better judgement, I tried Windows Mobile. Never again. I'd > rather use an old worn-out piece-of-shit PalmOS machine than a WindowsCE > machine. > > Peace... Sridhar Unfortunately my Sony Clie is reaching the "old worn-out" point. I need to try buying a replacement battery and installing it. I've come to realize that gadgets with batteries that aren't meant to be replaced are a *BAD* idea. Zane From lcourtney at mvista.com Tue Sep 27 14:22:20 2005 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 12:22:20 -0700 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <200509271759.NAA15495@wordstock.com> Message-ID: PalmSource was already moving towards Linux in a big way (e.g. acquisition of China Mobilesoft, Linux staffing, API migration). WinCE/Windows Mobile has gotten very traction in the handset (e.g. cell phone) space. For both technical and business reasons. [Yes - I work at a company in this space. Not that it would bias me in any way! ;-)] Lee Courtney > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bryan Pope > Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 10:59 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: PalmOS no more? :( > > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/ptech/09/27/palm.microsoft.ap/index.html > From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Sep 27 14:32:00 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:32:00 -0500 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: References: <43276999.A056B9F0@msm.umr.edu> <20050913215917.0c1e8744.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <43399E30.3050407@oldskool.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > required." They felt it was necessary to tell the potential customer > that they'd need a disk drive to use software distributed on disk. Or, somewhat ironically, a word processor probably wouldn't be useful if you couldn't save your work quickly and often. Then again, could you do useful word-processing work on a cassette-based machine? Anyone who use Atari 8-bit, C64, etc. -- was this common? I assume that you'd load the wordprocessor via tape, then run the machine without powering down and save your work(s) to a blank tape... but I don't remember that as being common; I remember disks being much more common and practical. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Sep 27 14:34:06 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:34:06 -0500 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43399EAE.4030001@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > Yes it does. AFAIK all IBM PC, PC/XT, PortablePC (which is the same > mainboard as the PC/XT) and PC/AT machines have ROM BASIC. I am typing > this on a much hacked 8MHz IBM PC/AT, and it has BASIC in ROM. IIRC, a PS/2 model 25 and 30 also have BASIC in ROM. And a PCjr most certainly does (along with a full diagnostic program and "keyboard tutorial" -- the diags were impressive for the time). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Sep 27 14:42:13 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:42:13 -0500 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <20050914231913.67074.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050914231913.67074.qmail@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4339A095.7030609@oldskool.org> Chris M wrote: > > I find the 400 line graphic cards the most > interesting. Sigma 400, STB, Tecmar, Taxan, and others My AT&T PC 6300 (Olivetti M24 clone) had this but it wasn't as exotic as the hardware mentioned above: The stock Motorola 6845 character generator (MC6845) was used, but it just pointed to an 8x16 character table so you got nicer characters in 400-line mode. 200-line modes were just scanline-doubled. Pro? a true 640x400-line high-res mode. Con? Games that used text character "graphics" (that took the stock IBM 8x8 font into account when they were created) didn't look right. Oh, another favorite feature: The card had a signal line that could activate the degaussing circuit on the bundled AT&T monitor. I almost fell out of my chair when I ran diagnostic software that printed something like "Degaussing..." and then was quickly followed by a loud noise and the familiar "twisty pix" distortion of a monitor in its degaussing cycle... scared the crap out of me. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Sep 27 14:47:34 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:47:34 -0500 Subject: Looking for IBM PC/XT/AT technical references In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4339A1D6.3090603@oldskool.org> GManuel (GMC) wrote: > > and such. I believe it was a CGA only program even with the "full" 4 color > pallette. lol Later version supported EGA :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Sep 27 14:48:40 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:48:40 -0500 Subject: Looking for IBM PC/XT/AT technical references In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4339A218.5090708@oldskool.org> Richard Beaudry wrote: > I also just picked up ImagEdit, which could hook up to one of IBM's > scanners, and scan pictures in. It was also a general-purpose image > editor, although not as complete as today's :-) I have their Handwriting Assistant -- I believe it hooked up to said scanner and attempted to OCR handwriting. Still shrinkwrapped. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 27 14:51:05 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:51:05 +0100 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <433996F5.2040307@gmail.com> References: <200509271851.j8RIpZFe006528@onyx.spiritone.com> <433996F5.2040307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4339A2A9.5020102@yahoo.co.uk> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Against my better judgement, I tried Windows Mobile. Never again. I'd > rather use an old worn-out piece-of-shit PalmOS machine than a WindowsCE > machine. Wince: The facial expression of sudden pain. I never did figure out quite how that one got past Microsoft's marketing department! Out of interest (here I go OT *again*), presumably MS OS software is finding its way into various handheld devices these days. How good is it? MS always struck me as a company who were incapable of thinking on a small, efficient scale so it'd be interesting to hear how well they are coping... cheers J. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Sep 27 15:07:50 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: from Mike Maginnis at "Sep 27, 5 01:19:36 pm" Message-ID: <200509272007.NAA09302@floodgap.com> > I saw no mention of Palm's PDA line (Tungsten, Lifedrive, etc). > Judging from Palm's reasons given in the article, they wanted Wince's > improved voice and call management features. I doubt very seriously > that Wince will be "appearing on a Lifedrive near you." My issue is the motivation. Palm said they were doing this in order to extend the Treo's marketshare to people who would otherwise bought a WinPhone, but I think all this will do is fraction the Treo market so that neither the PalmOS nor the new WinCE handsets will benefit. I found Windows Mobile very hard to navigate in, even though (and I speak as a Mac bigot, so grain of salt where needed) I did try to give Microsoft a fair shake when I was in the market for a PDA. I found the interface clunky, busy and tried to do too much. The m505 was much simpler to navigate and operate, and I went with Palm. I have seen little improvement in Win Mobile's usability. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Ignorance, always loud in argument. -- Charlie Chan ------------------------ From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Sep 27 15:10:54 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 21:10:54 +0100 Subject: USB stuff In-Reply-To: <200509271918.j8RJIaJx007191@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200509271918.j8RJIaJx007191@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: In message <200509271918.j8RJIaJx007191 at onyx.spiritone.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Of course I've also seen USB fans... The old saying about a fool and their > money comes to mind :^) Have you seen those USB coffee-cup warmers? Geez, there's a useless invention if there ever was one. If you don't know why, go work out how much power you can squeeze out of a USB port's 500mA current-limited 5V line :) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... When I get a better mouse trap built, mice will be an endangered species. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Sep 27 15:28:29 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SIMM, Address Lines Order? Message-ID: <200509272028.NAA04602@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> 1) The RAS only, and Hidden Refresh cycles involve a Row address >> supplied on the address lines. So, unless there's some undocumented >> requirement that these address be supplied in a particular order, I >> don't think that will cause a problem. However, I recognize that >> sometimes datasheets (and documentation in general) assume general >> knowledge about the topic. So if there is some implicit assumption >> about the addresses supplied during a refresh, I'd appreciate someone >> explaining it to me. > >I've never head of such a requirement, only that all 2^n states of the >address lines are used within a certain time. > >The only issue is if only some of the address lines to the RAM are used >for refresh, then you have to make sure those are kept together (but you >can scramble their order, just as you can scramble the order of the ones >not used in the refresh operation). > >-tony Hi This is what I was talking about with the A0-A6. You need to see how many cycles are needed for refresh. This should be in the spec. You need to determine how many address lines are needed to complete that cycle. As an example. If it is a 128 cycle refresh A0-A6 need to be grouped as Tony states. If it is 256 cycle, A0-A7 need to be grouped and so on. The cycles tells you how many addresses need to be cycled through on a refresh to get all of the internal banks. They always assume starting with A0 on to figure. Between what Tony and I are saying, does it make sense?? Dwight From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Sep 27 15:53:34 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 13:53:34 -0700 Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I'm still futzing about with this IIfx SIMM idea. I plan to use a > pair of SN74ABT241A octal buffers to make the 16M X 4 chips look as > if they have separate Din and Dout pins. And I planned to use the > WE_ signal as the control to the buffers. > > However, it occurred to me that the computer might hold WE high at > all times except during writes. This would leave the Dout path > enabled almost all the time, which might interfere with other > activity on the data bus. It finally sunk into my brain what you are trying to do. Since I'm reading this on cctech with its day or two delay, this has probably been covered, but I'm sending it anyway. The purpose of the separate Din and Dout is that the IIfx SIMMs latched the write data so it could start the next read cycle before the write cycle was complete, saving a cycle or two at 40 MHz. I'm not sure that your idea will work for that. I think you'll need a tristate latch on the Din, maybe latched with WE# and enabled by WE# | CAS#. Dout could be tristated to ~(WE# | CAS#) | OE#. (if there is a separate OE#) There are a lot of caveats, though. I'm assuming that there is never a R/W cycle. I'm also assuming your DRAM outputs remain at high Z throughout a write only (aka "early write") cycle regardless of the state of OE#. If your DRAMS support this you can just ground the DRAM OE# and forget about it and just worry about when to tristate your buffers. Also watch out for systems that use WE# and OE# interchangably or mix them in funky ways. Your best bet is to study your DRAM datasheets carefully. It would be nice to have a IIfx timing diagram. I certainly don't have a logic analyzer fast enough for this task.... Eric From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Sep 27 15:57:18 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 16:57:18 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <4339A2A9.5020102@yahoo.co.uk> References: <433996F5.2040307@gmail.com> <200509271851.j8RIpZFe006528@onyx.spiritone.com> <433996F5.2040307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050927164124.05148d80@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jules Richardson may have mentioned these words: >Out of interest (here I go OT *again*), presumably MS OS software is >finding its way into various handheld devices these days. How good is it? >MS always struck me as a company who were incapable of thinking on a >small, efficient scale so it'd be interesting to hear how well they are >coping... At the risk of 1) dragging this weird topic back *on* topic, and 2) pizzing off people by being pro-M$[1] -- M$ has made several useful minimalistic OSs - just look at the Tandy 100/102/200, M$'s HH/OS in the Tandy 600, and other examples out there in classicland... And it's not *all* M$'s fault, either! I feel that XP would be about 1/2 size, if it wasn't for all the dancing dogs & wizards that those of us who can actually run a computer don't need - they put it in there for all the lusers... Granted, M$ hasn't considered OS efficiency in a long, long time... but they used to be able to do quite a bit in 32K or less. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] and yet, I have a really, *really* sour taste in my mouth after the multi-attempt, multi-hour legal WinXP activation SNAFU I just had earlier today - my first install - and they say it's easier than Linux... Sheesh! -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 27 15:51:54 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:51:54 -0600 Subject: USB stuff In-Reply-To: References: <200509271918.j8RJIaJx007191@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <4339B0EA.2010601@jetnet.ab.ca> Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Have you seen those USB coffee-cup warmers? Geez, there's a useless invention > if there ever was one. No... > If you don't know why, go work out how much power you can squeeze out of a > USB port's 500mA current-limited 5V line :) Wait ... Let's give it internet access too ... You do want to know when your coffee is hot. :) From jdrcpeterson at graceba.net Tue Sep 27 16:09:21 2005 From: jdrcpeterson at graceba.net (J. Darren Peterson) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 16:09:21 -0500 Subject: MVME 712/M Message-ID: <007501c5c3a7$bbd4fe20$6ed1939b@nase.ds.army.mil> Anyone interested in Motorola MVME 712/M network boards for sale? jdp From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 27 16:13:28 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <43399E30.3050407@oldskool.org> References: <43276999.A056B9F0@msm.umr.edu> <20050913215917.0c1e8744.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43399E30.3050407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050927141044.R48490@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 27 Sep 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Then again, could you do useful word-processing work on a cassette-based > machine? Anyone who use Atari 8-bit, C64, etc. -- was this common? I assume > that you'd load the wordprocessor via tape, then run the machine without > powering down and save your work(s) to a blank tape... but I don't remember > that as being common; I remember disks being much more common and practical. On TRS-80, I ran Electric Pencil and Scripsit. Both had had some trivial mods to also support TRS-232 serial printer interface and Exatron Stringy Floppy. The hardware had the Elcompco mods to support Ctrl key, lower case, and reverse video. Overall: NOT RECOMMENDED to use tape. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 27 16:20:22 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 14:20:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <200509272007.NAA09302@floodgap.com> References: <200509272007.NAA09302@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20050927141925.M48490@shell.lmi.net> I just got a Palm OS 4.1 wrist watch (Fossil). OF COURSE it will be discontinued! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jpero at sympatico.ca Tue Sep 27 13:26:01 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:26:01 +0000 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <43399EAE.4030001@oldskool.org> References: Message-ID: <20050927221910.UPAP26102.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > Tony Duell wrote: > > Yes it does. AFAIK all IBM PC, PC/XT, PortablePC (which is the same > > mainboard as the PC/XT) and PC/AT machines have ROM BASIC. I am typing > > this on a much hacked 8MHz IBM PC/AT, and it has BASIC in ROM. > > IIRC, a PS/2 model 25 and 30 also have BASIC in ROM. And a PCjr most certainly > does (along with a full diagnostic program and "keyboard tutorial" -- the diags > were impressive for the time). > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Add this to this list of basic in ROM. L40SX, an 386sx mono LCD semi-notebook. Cheers, Wizard From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Tue Sep 27 17:20:46 2005 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick/VCM SysOp) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:20:46 -0700 Subject: FA: Imsai 8080 on VCM... going... going... In-Reply-To: <20050927141925.M48490@shell.lmi.net> References: <200509272007.NAA09302@floodgap.com> <20050927141925.M48490@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4339C5BE.7030104@vintagecomputermarketplace.com> The Imsai 8080 system on the Vintage Computer Marketplace is in the last two hours of bidding, currently at $461.99 (there is a reserve, and of course, I can't tell you what it is, but I can tell you that the seller is reasonable). http://marketplace.vintage.org/view.cfm?ad=2014 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Sep 27 17:50:14 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:50:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hobbyist VMS Message-ID: <51512.82.152.112.73.1127861414.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Hi folks, Anyone here with the hobbyist VMS CDs able to stick the C compiler up on some webspace for me to download please? I'm on the program myself but didn't get the CDs because I've got 2001-era layered products CDs that would normally do fine, but as I've discovered in setting up an Alpha 3000-300LX as a webserver said CDs are 250 miles away and I don't fancy talking my missus through setting up my MicroVAX 3100-90 and sticking it on the network (I know, I know, why isn't it already online :o)) I've googled my arse off for an up-to-date version of GNU C that will work with VMS 7.3-2 and have downloaded v2.7.1 in various flavours, v2.8.0 and v4.0.1 but the only VMS specific stuff is 2.7.1 and it's not behaving correctly when I'm trying to compile apps. I could hack the 2.7.1 .CLD file so it works with later versions but it's nearly midnight in the UK and I'm tired :) Anyone? An e-beer or iBeer is available. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 27 18:11:29 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 19:11:29 -0400 Subject: Available for pickup. Message-ID: <0INI00LQX0CZ1EB4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Available for pickup. > From: C Fernandez > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 12:12:20 -0400 > To: General at internet1.net, "Discussion at internet1.net":On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > >Allison, > >You didn't post any location, but specified pickup. Ok, Billerica MA. No shipping possible. Enough to fill a small car and very heavy. I do not wish to be a shipping broker. Allison > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA > >Allison wrote: >> I take it that I can notify the owner that these systems are of no interest >> to anyone here. I cant take them, too much and too big. >> >> Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 27 17:28:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:28:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <43399E30.3050407@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Sep 27, 5 02:32:00 pm Message-ID: > Then again, could you do useful word-processing work on a cassette-based > machine? Anyone who use Atari 8-bit, C64, etc. -- was this common? I assume Scripsit (for the TRS-80 Model 1 and 3) was certainly available on a cassette, with load/save of your text to cassette. It worked, but it wasn't that practical :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 27 17:29:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:29:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <43399EAE.4030001@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Sep 27, 5 02:34:06 pm Message-ID: > IIRC, a PS/2 model 25 and 30 also have BASIC in ROM. And a PCjr most certainly > does (along with a full diagnostic program and "keyboard tutorial" -- the diags > were impressive for the time). The problem with those diagnostics (and most built-in diagnostics) is that a fairly large part of the machine has to be operational (at least the CPU, some memory, ROM, video) for them to be at all useful. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 27 17:32:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:32:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <4339A095.7030609@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Sep 27, 5 02:42:13 pm Message-ID: > Oh, another favorite feature: The card had a signal line that could activate > the degaussing circuit on the bundled AT&T monitor. I almost fell out of my > chair when I ran diagnostic software that printed something like > "Degaussing..." and then was quickly followed by a loud noise and the familiar > "twisty pix" distortion of a monitor in its degaussing cycle... scared the > crap out of me. I beleive the HP9845C (colour monitor) had a DEGAUSS command in the BASIC that would energise the degausing coil. And a CONVERGE command that would display the appropriate patterns for doing convergeance adjustments. Alas I only have a 9845B (with the enhanced mono monitor) so I cna't try them out. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Sep 27 18:19:40 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 18:19:40 -0500 Subject: PDP stuff & location sought for movie Message-ID: <013f01c5c3b9$ff7e23b0$6500a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Someone wants to film a short (~10 minutes) section of film for a non-profit movie in the central florida area. They are looking for someone who has 70's vintage PDP machines with mag tapes & such. Semi-operating condition preferred. I'm under the impression they'd film where the gear is, so it wouldn't have to be moved. If anyone can help please email me off-list. Jay >---------------------------------------------------------------------- I am doing prop research for an upcoming student short film which aims to recreate a minicomputer laboratory setting from 1970 and include some close-up shots on various minicomputer gear of the era, such as the large reel tape based memory storage units and monochrome consoles. I happened upon the PDP-11 in course of my research and I thought I'd just go ahead and ask if there is anywhere in the state of Florida where we could accomplish this goal of using authentic 1970's minicomputer hardware in the film. The runtime will only be 5-10 minutes and the crew and set should be relatively compact. I'd appreciate any information or pointers you can help us with. Thank you! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 27 17:38:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:38:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <433996F5.2040307@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Sep 27, 5 03:01:09 pm Message-ID: > Against my better judgement, I tried Windows Mobile. Never again. I'd > rather use an old worn-out piece-of-shit PalmOS machine than a WindowsCE > machine. I very quickly realised that 'CE' stood for 'Complete Excrement' :-). And that WInCE was what you did if you had to use said system. My aging HP41 and HP71 systems do all I need... They can link to an RS232 port, an HPIB interface, Disk drive, data logger, etc. And they have nice, easy-to-use software. -tony From allain at panix.com Tue Sep 27 11:20:42 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 12:20:42 -0400 Subject: Available for pickup. References: <0INH00FUMBX0JG70@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <002901c5c3c4$3a2903e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> >> Apollo 400, 715s/50, 715t/50, (2) 715/64, 400 > I take it that I can notify the owner that these systems are of > no interest to anyone here. I cant take them, too much and too > big. I could use some words as to size,location, and condition. Boot floppies are not likely easy to find, even *rare* on eBay. John A. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 27 19:46:23 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:46:23 -0400 Subject: Available for pickup. Message-ID: <0INI00H4J4R4UOH2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Available for pickup. > From: "John Allain" > Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 12:20:42 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>> Apollo 400, 715s/50, 715t/50, (2) 715/64, 400 > >> I take it that I can notify the owner that these systems are of >> no interest to anyone here. I cant take them, too much and too >> big. > >I could use some words as to size,location, and condition. >Boot floppies are not likely easy to find, even *rare* on eBay. > >John A. If you know what they are then the size is obvious. I believe they are deskside to desktop and heavy. I have no data and the current holder is planning a dump run with them. I already posted where they are. Allison From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Sep 27 23:55:59 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:55:59 -0500 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <433A225F.5020005@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >>IIRC, a PS/2 model 25 and 30 also have BASIC in ROM. And a PCjr most certainly >>does (along with a full diagnostic program and "keyboard tutorial" -- the diags >>were impressive for the time). > > The problem with those diagnostics (and most built-in diagnostics) is > that a fairly large part of the machine has to be operational (at least > the CPU, some memory, ROM, video) for them to be at all useful. While it is rare that a minor error will surface in, say, the CPU (I have NEVER seen a CPU go gradually, like "whoops, now I can't ADD or SHL" -- it's all or nothing), the diagnostics run in something like 1K of ROM with no memory use other than video so they are helpful in diagnosing RAM problems. And the sound, joystick, video, and floppy drive tests are helpful in determining if the machine is functional on a basic level -- I always run them on any new PCjr I come across to determine if it's worth hauling away or not :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 28 00:53:28 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 22:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <433A225F.5020005@oldskool.org> from Jim Leonard at "Sep 27, 5 11:55:59 pm" Message-ID: <200509280553.WAA08452@floodgap.com> > other than video so they are helpful in diagnosing RAM problems. And the > sound, joystick, video, and floppy drive tests are helpful in determining if > the machine is functional on a basic level -- I always run them on any new > PCjr I come across to determine if it's worth hauling away or not :-) I have to admit, even though I'm not a PC fan by any means, I found the PCjr fascinating. It didn't deserve the fate it got (though it *did* deserve a better price point than it was saddled with). -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups. ------------ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 27 11:39:12 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 09:39:12 -0700 Subject: USB Power In-Reply-To: <4338E5AF.3040502@Rikers.org> References: <20050926182738.K4439@shell.lmi.net> <200509262014560209.11D0DF9F@10.0.0.252> <4338E5AF.3040502@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <200509270939120633.14B1343E@10.0.0.252> On 9/27/2005 at 12:24 AM Tim Riker wrote: >The driver is still available from Toshiba, but only for windows 95: > >http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/tais/su/su_sc_modSel.jsp > >enter desktop/infinia/7200 (for example) then grab the InTouch module >driver for windows 95. > >Course then the fun begins. I recommend Win95 in a VMWare session under >Linux and dumping the protocol from there. ;-) Tim, I'm familiar with the available drivers, but there are several types of InTouch modules, all mutually incompatible. Toshiba had their own mods to the BIOS (and apparently some peculiar USB hacks). I've got a 7202 and a 7230 Infinia here and can tell you that the 7200 driver software doesn't work on them or any other PC that I've tried it on--and that the 7200 InTouch (which I have the bunch of) is substantially different from the InTouch modules that came with the two above-mentioned systems (they don't have an LCD display, for example, and the chipset is completely different internally). I suppose I could take a lot of time disassembling the 7200 drivers and try to figure out what's going on, but can't find a reason why I'd want to do it. I bought the carton because a client needed a couple of these and purchasing the carton was cheaper than buying them individually. The Infinia was a love-hate thing for many people, like the IBM multimedia PC that came out at about the same time. To me, they're just another couple of systems hanging around that occasionally come in useful for testing. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 27 11:49:44 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 09:49:44 -0700 Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200509270949440672.14BAD925@10.0.0.252> On 9/26/2005 at 6:09 PM Jeff Walther wrote: >If a tristate buffer is enabled by its control line, but the input to >the buffer is at high-Z is there a typical output? I think I understand what you're asking, but I'm not sure. If it's straight bipolar TTL, the high-Z input is usually at a "high" level. But iwith CMOS, you're in terra incognita. Stray charges can linger on lines a lot longer than on bipolar. Better to add some pullups--it shouldn't take much to clamp the inputs at a "high" state--100K should be fine. 10K will work fine on LSTTL. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 27 12:31:29 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:31:29 -0700 Subject: Restoring (and I do mean 'Restoring!') Plastic In-Reply-To: <27.7ab24c84.3069a675@aol.com> References: <27.7ab24c84.3069a675@aol.com> Message-ID: <200509271031290163.14E11050@10.0.0.252> On 9/26/2005 at 3:31 PM Ladyelec at aol.com wrote: >Have you tried Dow Scrubbing bubbles bathroom cleaner and a scotch pad? >Spray >the cleaner on and let it set a few minutes , spray again then use scotch >pad. Lisa, that may work to bring the surface to a matte finish, but what I'm looking for is a way to bring HDPE back to a glossy mirror finish. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 27 17:07:04 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:07:04 -0700 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <20050927141044.R48490@shell.lmi.net> References: <43276999.A056B9F0@msm.umr.edu> <20050913215917.0c1e8744.chenmel@earthlink.net> <43399E30.3050407@oldskool.org> <20050927141044.R48490@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200509271507040871.15DD652E@10.0.0.252> >On Tue, 27 Sep 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: >> Then again, could you do useful word-processing work on a cassette-based >> machine? Anyone who use Atari 8-bit, C64, etc. -- was this common? I >assume >> that you'd load the wordprocessor via tape, then run the machine without >> powering down and save your work(s) to a blank tape... but I don't >remember >> that as being common; I remember disks being much more common and >practical. Way back when I still was using an Imsai 8080 with Diablo daisywheel (directly driven by a dual-parallel port interface--not a serial one) and a Beehive Superbee editing terminal, I stored my data on a digital cassette tape drive (it allowed for speeds of up to 2400 bps and was block-addressable). It wasn't a disk, but it did allow me to edit documents on a page-by-page basis. You loaded a page into the Superbee, did your editing and then hit "transmit" to send the edited data back to the CPU. I suspect I could have done away with the CPU entirely! WYSWYG and no WordStar. Seems to me that, although they had floppy drives, the old CPT word processors worked exactly like this. The disks were organized by document number and page; you edited things page by page. It worked and was a lot faster to use than the punched-card setup I used on the mainframe. Cheers, Chuck From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Tue Sep 27 19:45:51 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:45:51 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <433996F5.2040307@gmail.com> References: <200509271851.j8RIpZFe006528@onyx.spiritone.com> <433996F5.2040307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.4.2.20050927203318.03340148@boff-net.dhs.org> Sridhar: I could always sell you my incredibly flawed and limited Palm m130 with partially defective color display (Palm had a recall on them that really didn't give you a working m130 back without paying out the ass for the value of 2 of them... and it would still have the same somewhat flawed display of 50-something thousand colors instead of the proper 64k, amazing what those marketing idiots did). Sorry, had to have a laugh. Also, there used to be a joke/image out there about M$: The next new future: "Windows CE_Me_NT: dumb as a brick and goes about as fast." My younger brother got bored one day and did research on reducing the size of Win98 (he does naughty things like program and reverse engineer when he gets bored). He found that if you remove a good chink of the B.S. in Win98SE, you could have a working graphical OS in the footprint of about 48MB, full installation. Obviously, after he tinkered with the research and all, the drive was immediately blanked entirely for legality sake, etc. Just shows how much garbage there really is in there if the newer XP takes about what- 1GB for fully loaded installation? It probably only truly needs (estimating fairly) about 256MB for something that much more complex and graphical. Final thing: looking online for replacement Palm batteries confirms the poor planning and intent on selling those damned things. $30-40.00 US plus shipping for a replacement m130 battery via 3rd party (Palm doesn't even offer it and their tech-help confirmed that)! For a unit only 3-4 years old, that is about double what the unit goes for used, in good to excellent condition, on ebay. -John At 03:01 PM 9/27/2005, you wrote: >Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/ptech/09/27/palm.microsoft.ap/index.html >> >>I've got to admit, this concerns me. I've got software that requires >>PalmOS, and I don't really want to have to go out and buy a WinCE version, >>as that will require upgrading far more expensive software that >>works with it. :^( > >Against my better judgement, I tried Windows Mobile. Never >again. I'd rather use an old worn-out piece-of-shit PalmOS machine >than a WindowsCE machine. > >Peace... Sridhar > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.7/112 - Release Date: 9/26/2005 > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.7/112 - Release Date: 9/26/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.7/112 - Release Date: 9/26/2005 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 27 22:24:03 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:24:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MSX software was Re: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050928032403.72616.qmail@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> > > Then again, could you do useful word-processing > work on a cassette-based > > machine? Speaking of cassette based software and whatnot, in the absence of a floppy drive, and my understanding is there was one available, not that I'm likely to find it anytime soon, what are my options for running (any) software for the Yamaha CX5M I just appropriated? It does have a cassette port and cartridge port. Are images of stuph available anywhere? I suppose I could build a generic cartridge and dump images onto an eprom or something like that. What about adapting a drive from some other z80 based puter? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jhoger at pobox.com Wed Sep 28 02:29:25 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 00:29:25 -0700 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.4.2.20050927203318.03340148@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <200509271851.j8RIpZFe006528@onyx.spiritone.com> <433996F5.2040307@gmail.com> <6.2.5.4.2.20050927203318.03340148@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <1127892565.13853.17.camel@aragorn> On Tue, 2005-09-27 at 20:45 -0400, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Final thing: looking online for replacement Palm batteries confirms > the poor planning and intent on selling those damned things. > $30-40.00 US plus shipping for a replacement m130 battery via 3rd > party (Palm doesn't even offer it and their tech-help confirmed > that)! For a unit only 3-4 years old, that is about double what the > unit goes for used, in good to excellent condition, on ebay. > For me the "classic" Palm is the IIIxe. Still used standard AAA batteries, but has 8Meg of RAM. Standard serial port for interfacing with vintage equipment. The negative part is that it has no card reader, but 8Meg is still a lot of space on these units. My IIIxe is in service as a portable disk drive emulator for my Tandy Model 102 and WP-2 laptops. Refurbs of this model pop up at Fry's once in a while. Similarly, the most interesting vintage laptops for me are those that run on standard batteries. the Kyocerish laptops like TRS-80 Model 100/102/200, NEC 8300, Cambridge Z88, the NEC 8500. -- John. From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 28 02:30:11 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 03:30:11 -0400 Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <200509280615.j8S6F1iB076581@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200509280730.j8S7U2XW026673@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: "I've seen an LED map light that plugs into and gets its power from USB. It seemed to work OK." That's nothing. Computer Geeks is selling a motorized USB "Aquarium" .... a clear plastic "tank" in which motorized fish (or perhaps just a mural of fish) move, powered from a USB port. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 28 05:56:06 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 06:56:06 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <200509271920.j8RJKhgG007240@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200509271920.j8RJKhgG007240@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <433A76C6.4080102@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>Against my better judgement, I tried Windows Mobile. Never again. I'd >>rather use an old worn-out piece-of-shit PalmOS machine than a WindowsCE >>machine. > > Unfortunately my Sony Clie is reaching the "old worn-out" point. I need to > try buying a replacement battery and installing it. I've come to realize > that gadgets with batteries that aren't meant to be replaced are a *BAD* > idea. That's one of the reasons I like my Kyocera 7135 so much. I'll be sorry to see it go when my Treo 650 arrives. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 28 05:57:36 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 06:57:36 -0400 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <43399EAE.4030001@oldskool.org> References: <43399EAE.4030001@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <433A7720.9010805@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Yes it does. AFAIK all IBM PC, PC/XT, PortablePC (which is the same >> mainboard as the PC/XT) and PC/AT machines have ROM BASIC. I am typing >> this on a much hacked 8MHz IBM PC/AT, and it has BASIC in ROM. > > > IIRC, a PS/2 model 25 and 30 also have BASIC in ROM. And a PCjr most > certainly does (along with a full diagnostic program and "keyboard > tutorial" -- the diags were impressive for the time). AFAIK, all IBM PS/2's have BASIC in ROM. My Model 50, 80, 90 and 95 all do. Maybe some of the executive series machines don't, but all the ones I've seen do. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 28 05:58:46 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 06:58:46 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <4339A2A9.5020102@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200509271851.j8RIpZFe006528@onyx.spiritone.com> <433996F5.2040307@gmail.com> <4339A2A9.5020102@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <433A7766.1040107@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Against my better judgement, I tried Windows Mobile. Never again. >> I'd rather use an old worn-out piece-of-shit PalmOS machine than a >> WindowsCE machine. > > > Wince: The facial expression of sudden pain. > > I never did figure out quite how that one got past Microsoft's marketing > department! > > Out of interest (here I go OT *again*), presumably MS OS software is > finding its way into various handheld devices these days. How good is > it? MS always struck me as a company who were incapable of thinking on a > small, efficient scale so it'd be interesting to hear how well they are > coping... There's always this: http://internet.ls-la.net/pictures/Windows-Cement.html Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 28 06:01:17 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 07:01:17 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050927141925.M48490@shell.lmi.net> References: <200509272007.NAA09302@floodgap.com> <20050927141925.M48490@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <433A77FD.1030104@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > I just got a Palm OS 4.1 wrist watch (Fossil). > > OF COURSE it will be discontinued! I saw one of those when they first came out. How's it in regards to usability as a Palm? Peace... Sridhar From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Sep 28 07:42:10 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 13:42:10 +0100 Subject: Hobbyist VMS In-Reply-To: <51512.82.152.112.73.1127861414.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <51512.82.152.112.73.1127861414.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <26c11a640509280542354bdc73@mail.gmail.com> On 27/09/05, Witchy wrote: > Hi folks, > > Anyone here with the hobbyist VMS CDs able to stick the C compiler up on > some webspace for me to download please? I'm on the program myself but > didn't get the CDs because I've got 2001-era layered products CDs that > would normally do fine, but as I've discovered in setting up an Alpha > 3000-300LX as a webserver said CDs are 250 miles away and I don't fancy > talking my missus through setting up my MicroVAX 3100-90 and sticking it > on the network (I know, I know, why isn't it already online :o)) > > I've googled my arse off for an up-to-date version of GNU C that will work > with VMS 7.3-2 and have downloaded v2.7.1 in various flavours, v2.8.0 and > v4.0.1 but the only VMS specific stuff is 2.7.1 and it's not behaving > correctly when I'm trying to compile apps. I could hack the 2.7.1 .CLD > file so it works with later versions but it's nearly midnight in the UK > and I'm tired :) > > Anyone? > > An e-beer or iBeer is available. > > -- > adrian/witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? > You want Alpha ?. Dan From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Wed Sep 28 08:44:29 2005 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:44:29 -0400 Subject: Available for pickup. In-Reply-To: <0INI00LQX0CZ1EB4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0INI00LQX0CZ1EB4@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <0FF27155-8A09-46F4-8901-17852E36930A@mind-to-mind.com> I work in Burlington... I wouldn't mind picking up one or more machines (I'm personally interested in a 400). From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Sep 28 08:54:54 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:54:54 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.4.2.20050927203318.03340148@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <433996F5.2040307@gmail.com> <200509271851.j8RIpZFe006528@onyx.spiritone.com> <433996F5.2040307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050928094421.03a8fe48@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Boffemmyer IV may have mentioned these words: >Sridhar: I could always sell you my incredibly flawed and limited Palm m130... Altho I hate how Sony has to "Sonyfy" things, my NR70 is one schweet Palm computer. People keep asking me why I don't upgrade, and I keep telling 'em "because there's no other unit as nice as this yet." Sounds just like my Tandy 200... ;-) Now if only MicroWare/Radisys would port OS-9 to 68K-based Palms, we'd all be set -- Mmmm... portable Dynacalc... ;-) >Also, there used to be a joke/image out there about M$: The next new >future: "Windows CE_Me_NT: dumb as a brick and goes about as fast." I like that... Altho I must say that NT is a lot more useful if you know what your doing with it than the other two... >[Win98 Trim] in the footprint of about 48MB, full installation. Yea, there's a lot of cruft. >if the newer XP takes about what- 1GB If you don't know where to clean the crap -- 3.3G. Just installed it on "zFudge" -- my Fujitsu laptop. And on boot, nearly 200Meg RAM used! Well, I have it (without *that* much tuning) using 81Meg on boot.... not too bad, methinks... After some cleaning and juicing the swapfile - 1.3G. I have more to clean yet... but... > for fully loaded installation? It probably only truly needs (estimating > fairly) about 256MB About 350Meg. Found this site yesterday: http://www.litepc.com/ They also have RAM utilization to around 44Meg on boot. $40USD for the "Pro" version, there's a lite version for free. > $30-40.00 US plus shipping for a replacement m130 battery via 3rd party > (Palm doesn't even offer it and their tech-help confirmed that)! For a > unit only 3-4 years old, that is about double what the unit goes for > used, in good to excellent condition, on ebay. Didja check ePay for the batteries? I got 2 cheap chinese replacement batteries for my Sonys for about $30 shipped; and in the Sonys they're not *that* hard to replace. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com What do you do when Life gives you lemons, and you don't *like* lemonade????????????? From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Sep 28 10:06:00 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:06:00 -0400 Subject: New Images: Altos/Kaypro/MicroMint/Grid Message-ID: <200509281506.j8SF5wH4024713@mail1.magma.ca> Hi Guys, I've updated the archive with several new images that have been recently submitted: Altos 586 developer disks (also has MPM & some other goodies) Kaypro 3*83 and Kaypro 10 MicroMint SB-180 Grid Compass 1101 (Original Grid) I've also posted a minor update to ImageDisk (1.06) - no major fixes or functionality change - just cosmecics and minor enhancementws. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Sep 28 10:52:50 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:52:50 -0400 Subject: Looking for: BCC180 schematics and.. Message-ID: <0INJ00K67APN9Q75@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> I'm looking for schematics for MicroMint BCC180 rev1. Also Imagewise V2.0 reciever (ca1987) the earlier with DB25 connector. Any docs or schematic would help. Allison From news at computercollector.com Wed Sep 28 10:58:02 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:58:02 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <433A76C6.4080102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200509281606.j8SG6kBJ016847@keith.ezwind.net> Actually, the Treo 650 does have a removeable battery. But we're going too far off-topic. >>>> I've come to realize that gadgets with batteries that aren't meant to be > replaced are a *BAD* idea. >>>>>>>That's one of the reasons I like my Kyocera 7135 so much. I'll be sorry to see it go when my Treo 650 arrives. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 6:56 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PalmOS no more? :( Zane H. Healy wrote: >>Against my better judgement, I tried Windows Mobile. Never again. >>I'd rather use an old worn-out piece-of-shit PalmOS machine than a >>WindowsCE machine. > > Unfortunately my Sony Clie is reaching the "old worn-out" point. I > need to try buying a replacement battery and installing it. I've come > to realize that gadgets with batteries that aren't meant to be > replaced are a *BAD* idea. That's one of the reasons I like my Kyocera 7135 so much. I'll be sorry to see it go when my Treo 650 arrives. Peace... Sridhar From news at computercollector.com Wed Sep 28 10:58:52 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:58:52 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <433A77FD.1030104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200509281607.j8SG7aUT016858@keith.ezwind.net> Terrible! I tried one and the screen is like a satire of miniaturization. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 7:01 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PalmOS no more? :( Fred Cisin wrote: > I just got a Palm OS 4.1 wrist watch (Fossil). > > OF COURSE it will be discontinued! I saw one of those when they first came out. How's it in regards to usability as a Palm? Peace... Sridhar From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Sep 28 11:15:50 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 17:15:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hobbyist VMS In-Reply-To: <26c11a640509280542354bdc73@mail.gmail.com> References: <51512.82.152.112.73.1127861414.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <26c11a640509280542354bdc73@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <14294.195.92.106.69.1127924150.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> >> v4.0.1 but the only VMS specific stuff is 2.7.1 and it's not behaving >> correctly when I'm trying to compile apps. I could hack the 2.7.1 .CLD >> file so it works with later versions but it's nearly midnight in the UK >> and I'm tired :) >> >> Anyone? >> >> An e-beer or iBeer is available. >> > > You want Alpha ?. Yep, I'm using an Alpha 3000-300LX. The reason I mentioned setting the VAX up was it's the fastest ethernet-ready bit of DEC kit that has a built-in CD so I could copy the savesets across the web, but it's currently in bits and possibly a bit beyond my missus to set up :) cheers -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From jhoger at pobox.com Wed Sep 28 12:08:00 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:08:00 -0700 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <200509281607.j8SG7aUT016858@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200509281607.j8SG7aUT016858@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1127927280.13853.30.camel@aragorn> On Wed, 2005-09-28 at 11:58 -0400, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Terrible! I tried one and the screen is like a satire of miniaturization. I can only imagine... 1/4 of an icon and two scrollbars... From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 28 14:09:39 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 12:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <433A225F.5020005@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Sep 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > While it is rare that a minor error will surface in, say, the CPU (I have NEVER > seen a CPU go gradually, like "whoops, now I can't ADD or SHL" -- it's all or > nothing), the diagnostics run in something like 1K of ROM with no memory use > other than video so they are helpful in diagnosing RAM problems. And the > sound, joystick, video, and floppy drive tests are helpful in determining if > the machine is functional on a basic level -- I always run them on any new PCjr > I come across to determine if it's worth hauling away or not :-) Hey Jim. How do you access the diagnostics? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 28 14:19:19 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 12:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <1127892565.13853.17.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > For me the "classic" Palm is the IIIxe. Still used standard AAA > batteries, but has 8Meg of RAM. Standard serial port for interfacing > with vintage equipment. The negative part is that it has no card reader, > but 8Meg is still a lot of space on these units. As I've stated before, the Psion Series 5 trumps everything: full keyboard, standard memory card slot, touchscreen, backlighting, works on two standard AAs for about 40 hours (normal use, no backlighting), serial port adapter cable, etc. Standard software includes web browser and TCP/IP suite. I was able to find a freeware telnet client and, in combination with my now defunct wireless internet modem, used to be able to read e-mail off my server while driving down the highway (literally). Your Palms are silly toys. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 28 14:22:52 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 12:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > > > For me the "classic" Palm is the IIIxe. Still used standard AAA > > batteries, but has 8Meg of RAM. Standard serial port for interfacing > > with vintage equipment. The negative part is that it has no card reader, > > but 8Meg is still a lot of space on these units. > > As I've stated before, the Psion Series 5 trumps everything: full > keyboard, standard memory card slot, touchscreen, backlighting, works on > two standard AAs for about 40 hours (normal use, no backlighting), serial > port adapter cable, etc. Standard software includes web browser and > TCP/IP suite. I was able to find a freeware telnet client and, in > combination with my now defunct wireless internet modem, used to be able > to read e-mail off my server while driving down the highway (literally). Oh, and it runs Linux: http://linux-7110.sourceforge.net/ > Your Palms are silly toys. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 28 14:43:40 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:43:40 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > > >>For me the "classic" Palm is the IIIxe. Still used standard AAA >>batteries, but has 8Meg of RAM. Standard serial port for interfacing >>with vintage equipment. The negative part is that it has no card reader, >>but 8Meg is still a lot of space on these units. > > > As I've stated before, the Psion Series 5 trumps everything: full > keyboard, standard memory card slot, touchscreen, backlighting, works on > two standard AAs for about 40 hours (normal use, no backlighting), serial > port adapter cable, etc. Standard software includes web browser and > TCP/IP suite. I was able to find a freeware telnet client and, in > combination with my now defunct wireless internet modem, used to be able > to read e-mail off my server while driving down the highway (literally). > > Your Palms are silly toys. My Kyocera 7135 has all the features you listed, except the ability to use AA batteries. And it has high-speed internet access and can act as uplink to a laptop. Peace... Sridhar From news at computercollector.com Wed Sep 28 15:06:35 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 16:06:35 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003e01c5c468$213dfa80$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Silly toys? But I can watch TV on my Treo! http://mobitv.com/treo.html -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:19 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PalmOS no more? :( On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > For me the "classic" Palm is the IIIxe. Still used standard AAA > batteries, but has 8Meg of RAM. Standard serial port for interfacing > with vintage equipment. The negative part is that it has no card > reader, but 8Meg is still a lot of space on these units. As I've stated before, the Psion Series 5 trumps everything: full keyboard, standard memory card slot, touchscreen, backlighting, works on two standard AAs for about 40 hours (normal use, no backlighting), serial port adapter cable, etc. Standard software includes web browser and TCP/IP suite. I was able to find a freeware telnet client and, in combination with my now defunct wireless internet modem, used to be able to read e-mail off my server while driving down the highway (literally). Your Palms are silly toys. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Sep 28 16:12:40 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 16:12:40 Subject: FA: Interdata computer boards, 1970s Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050928161240.3bffbd1a@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I just finished listing a pile of early 70s Interdata computer boards on E-bay. Most seem to be for the 8/16 but the core memory (32k) is also used in the 8/32. Joe From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 28 16:05:46 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Fossil Palm OS 4.1 watch (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <1127927280.13853.30.camel@aragorn> References: <200509281607.j8SG7aUT016858@keith.ezwind.net> <1127927280.13853.30.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <20050928134414.B97802@shell.lmi.net> > On Wed, 2005-09-28 at 11:58 -0400, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' > wrote: > > Terrible! I tried one and the screen is like a satire of miniaturization. On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > I can only imagine... 1/4 of an icon and two scrollbars... FOUR icons. but they ARE small. The screen resolution IS adequate (that was s'posedly what delayed it), but the size is tiny. It is pretty much the maximum acceptable size for a watch. A regular stylus works a lot better than the tiny folding one hidden in the band buckle. It has some larger fonts available, and it helps a lot to switch to the largest ones. Before prebyopia, it would have been WONDERFUL! I created a "fiche" font for HPLJ, with 7 by 9 and 9 by 12 pixel characters, and used to use it a LOT to print half a dozen pages on a sheet of paper. Now I can't read it, or even a newspaper without at least +2 diopters. :-( I now use 3.50 reading glasses with the Fossil watch. It'll s'posedly run MOST Palm software. The built-in software is a lot more useful to me than that of the Epson RC-20, which was awkward for me to use because I never adequately learned to read Japanese. But it is a lot harder to program Palm than it was to program the Z80 in the RC-20. The Fossil palm watch is also available with crappier case and band under the Abacus brand name. On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Your Palms are silly toys. OF COURSE! Your computers are NOT silly toys???!?? Why do you collect them, if not as silly toys? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 28 16:15:50 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > My Kyocera 7135 has all the features you listed, except the ability to > use AA batteries. And it has high-speed internet access and can act as > uplink to a laptop. Could it do all this 8 years ago? I.E. it has the distinction of being only a couple years away from being on-topic ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From news at computercollector.com Wed Sep 28 16:18:52 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 17:18:52 -0400 Subject: OT: Ham radio news Message-ID: <004001c5c472$3c260e50$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> http://www.connpost.com/news/ci_3068326 Helping hurricane victims. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 28 16:18:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Fossil Palm OS 4.1 watch (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050928134414.B97802@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Your Palms are silly toys. > > OF COURSE! > Your computers are NOT silly toys???!?? > Why do you collect them, if not as silly toys? Well, compared to doing *useful* work, of course ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From news at computercollector.com Wed Sep 28 16:26:38 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 17:26:38 -0400 Subject: Fossil Palm OS 4.1 watch (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050928134414.B97802@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <004101c5c473$500fe7f0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> There's a company called PConHand. They made a PDA-wristwatch that debuted at the Jan. 2000 CES in Las Vegas. I was a beta tester. Unlike the current PalmOS watch, this one actually was useful! http://www.pconhand.com/onhandpc.asp The web site liberally uses the word "Palm" but they probably shouldn't... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 5:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: OT: Fossil Palm OS 4.1 watch (was: PalmOS no more? :( > On Wed, 2005-09-28 at 11:58 -0400, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' > wrote: > > Terrible! I tried one and the screen is like a satire of miniaturization. On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > I can only imagine... 1/4 of an icon and two scrollbars... FOUR icons. but they ARE small. The screen resolution IS adequate (that was s'posedly what delayed it), but the size is tiny. It is pretty much the maximum acceptable size for a watch. A regular stylus works a lot better than the tiny folding one hidden in the band buckle. It has some larger fonts available, and it helps a lot to switch to the largest ones. Before prebyopia, it would have been WONDERFUL! I created a "fiche" font for HPLJ, with 7 by 9 and 9 by 12 pixel characters, and used to use it a LOT to print half a dozen pages on a sheet of paper. Now I can't read it, or even a newspaper without at least +2 diopters. :-( I now use 3.50 reading glasses with the Fossil watch. It'll s'posedly run MOST Palm software. The built-in software is a lot more useful to me than that of the Epson RC-20, which was awkward for me to use because I never adequately learned to read Japanese. But it is a lot harder to program Palm than it was to program the Z80 in the RC-20. The Fossil palm watch is also available with crappier case and band under the Abacus brand name. On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Your Palms are silly toys. OF COURSE! Your computers are NOT silly toys???!?? Why do you collect them, if not as silly toys? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jhoger at pobox.com Wed Sep 28 16:28:26 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:28:26 -0700 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1127942907.20410.10.camel@aragorn> On Wed, 2005-09-28 at 12:19 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > As I've stated before, the Psion Series 5 trumps everything: full > keyboard, standard memory card slot, touchscreen, backlighting, works on > two standard AAs for about 40 hours (normal use, no backlighting), serial > port adapter cable, etc. Standard software includes web browser and > TCP/IP suite. I was able to find a freeware telnet client and, in > combination with my now defunct wireless internet modem, used to be able > to read e-mail off my server while driving down the highway (literally). > Looks pretty cool on the specs. Do you find the keyboard usable? General reliability? Proprietary connectors, probably... is the serial lead easily available? These seems to be going for about 30-100 pounds on ebay. Then add the shipping cost from GB. Genuine questions, not trying to make a comparison. My ideal compromise between a PDA and a notebook would be something like the TRS-80 Model 100 but with a faster CPU, flash port, modern connectivity. But the Psion leans too much toward the PDA end for me. > Your Palms are silly toys. > What list am I reading? -- John. From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Sep 28 17:26:58 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 17:26:58 -0500 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <433B18B2.8090101@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > How do you access the diagnostics? CTRL-ALT-INS, which I find strangely appropriate :-) The "BASIC Adventure", however, was stupid and misguided. Boot with no disk in the drive and no hard drive, and you'll go into BASIC. Hit ESC as the very first key and you'll go into this... game-thing-whatever it is. http://www.eeggs.com/items/40624.html has documentation. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Sep 28 17:34:46 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 17:34:46 -0500 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <200509280553.WAA08452@floodgap.com> References: <200509280553.WAA08452@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <433B1A86.5050101@oldskool.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>other than video so they are helpful in diagnosing RAM problems. And the >>sound, joystick, video, and floppy drive tests are helpful in determining if >>the machine is functional on a basic level -- I always run them on any new >>PCjr I come across to determine if it's worth hauling away or not :-) > > I have to admit, even though I'm not a PC fan by any means, I found the PCjr > fascinating. It didn't deserve the fate it got (though it *did* deserve a > better price point than it was saddled with). I have several, as I've always found them fascinating: - They had diagnostics, BASIC, a "game" and other stuff in ROM - They introduced 16-color graphics and 3-voice sound to the world of PC games, however it was Tandy's CLONE of those graphics and sound that became popular and advanced the industry - To reduce costs, the case of the PCjr is not metal but plastic coated in metal -- IBM patented a new process to do this (I'm not sure if they sprayed it on or if it was dipped) - The system is so small and light, it is more portable than the original Compaq deskpro :-) - built-in modem (albeit 300 baud) In short, a radical departure from the model 5150. If it cost half of what it debuted at, and came with a floppy drive standard, it easily would have taken over. A fascinating little machine. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 28 17:43:28 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <1127942907.20410.10.camel@aragorn> from "John R. Hogerhuis" at "Sep 28, 5 02:28:26 pm" Message-ID: <200509282243.PAA09014@floodgap.com> > > Your Palms are silly toys. > What list am I reading? Duh, the silly toys list. Silly. ;-) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The older a man gets, the farther he had to walk to school as a boy. ------- From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Sep 28 18:11:24 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:11:24 -0500 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <433B1A86.5050101@oldskool.org> References: <200509280553.WAA08452@floodgap.com> <433B1A86.5050101@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050928181124.00004feb@brass> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 17:34:46 -0500 Jim Leonard wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>other than video so they are helpful in diagnosing RAM problems. And the > >>sound, joystick, video, and floppy drive tests are helpful in determining if > >>the machine is functional on a basic level -- I always run them on any new > >>PCjr I come across to determine if it's worth hauling away or not :-) > > > > I have to admit, even though I'm not a PC fan by any means, I found the PCjr > > fascinating. It didn't deserve the fate it got (though it *did* deserve a > > better price point than it was saddled with). > > I have several, as I've always found them fascinating: > > - They had diagnostics, BASIC, a "game" and other stuff in ROM > > - They introduced 16-color graphics and 3-voice sound to the world of PC games, > however it was Tandy's CLONE of those graphics and sound that became popular > and advanced the industry > > - To reduce costs, the case of the PCjr is not metal but plastic coated in > metal -- IBM patented a new process to do this (I'm not sure if they sprayed it > on or if it was dipped) > The PCjr also lacked a DMA controller. So all diskette data has to pass through the CPU's accumulator, which makes it significantly slower than a PC-XT. I remember running a Norton SI on my Junior. It had a SI of .7 which was actually 'inflated' since that rating didn't benchmark the abcence of DMA. I used to enjoy playing '3-Demon' on the Junior. 3-Demon was a 'wireframe' 3-D version of Pacman. If you turned down a row that was the full legnth of the maze, the machine markedly slowed down as it struggled to render the deeper wireframe graphics. 3-Demon was a truly advanced graphic application to run on a first-generation PC. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Sep 28 18:16:34 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:16:34 -0500 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <1127927280.13853.30.camel@aragorn> References: <200509281607.j8SG7aUT016858@keith.ezwind.net> <1127927280.13853.30.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: <20050928181634.00006e64@brass> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:08:00 -0700 "John R. Hogerhuis" wrote: > On Wed, 2005-09-28 at 11:58 -0400, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' > wrote: > > Terrible! I tried one and the screen is like a satire of miniaturization. > > I can only imagine... 1/4 of an icon and two scrollbars... > Sounds like running X11 under NetBSD on my SE/30 (it works, but many X Window programs are pretty unforgiving of a 512x342 1-bit display) From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Sep 28 18:26:00 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:26:00 -0500 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.4.2.20050927203318.03340148@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <200509271851.j8RIpZFe006528@onyx.spiritone.com> <433996F5.2040307@gmail.com> <6.2.5.4.2.20050927203318.03340148@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <20050928182600.00007949@brass> On Tue, 27 Sep 2005 20:45:51 -0400 John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Sridhar: I could always sell you my incredibly flawed and limited > Palm m130 with partially defective color display (Palm had a recall > on them that really didn't give you a working m130 back without > paying out the ass for the value of 2 of them... and it would still > have the same somewhat flawed display of 50-something thousand colors > instead of the proper 64k, amazing what those marketing idiots did). > Sorry, had to have a laugh. Also, there used to be a joke/image out > there about M$: The next new future: "Windows CE_Me_NT: dumb as a > brick and goes about as fast." > > My younger brother got bored one day and did research on reducing the > size of Win98 (he does naughty things like program and reverse > engineer when he gets bored). He found that if you remove a good > chink of the B.S. in Win98SE, you could have a working graphical OS > in the footprint of about 48MB, full installation. Obviously, after > he tinkered with the research and all, the drive was immediately > blanked entirely for legality sake, etc. Just shows how much garbage > there really is in there if the newer XP takes about what- 1GB for > fully loaded installation? It probably only truly needs (estimating > fairly) about 256MB for something that much more complex and graphical. > > Final thing: looking online for replacement Palm batteries confirms > the poor planning and intent on selling those damned things. > $30-40.00 US plus shipping for a replacement m130 battery via 3rd > party (Palm doesn't even offer it and their tech-help confirmed > that)! For a unit only 3-4 years old, that is about double what the > unit goes for used, in good to excellent condition, on ebay. > > -John > Yes, but the 'good to excellent condition' unit that is 3-4 years old probably is also due for a battery replacement. I recently bought a Tungsten E and am happy except I do anticipate needing a new battery before the unit has served it's useful life (I try to wring a lot longer life out of expensive gear than the manufacturer plans). To drag things back on topic, battery replacement for portable 'vintage' machines is always an issue. My Powerbook 165c (which is _quite_ on topic here now, I hope) needs a battery that would cost quite a bit. My PC Convertable needs a battery, but last time I cracked a Convertible battery pack, it was just C-size Nicads spot welded together. I've now started using a fairly nice 386sx Zenith laptop for assembly language programming and it's close to time to look into batteries for it (the brick powerpack is pretty cumbersome.) The Model 100 is the king of vintage portables, though, and it just slowly eats regular batteries. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Sep 28 18:29:26 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:29:26 -0500 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 14:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > My Kyocera 7135 has all the features you listed, except the ability to > > use AA batteries. And it has high-speed internet access and can act as > > uplink to a laptop. > > Could it do all this 8 years ago? I.E. it has the distinction of being > only a couple years away from being on-topic ;) > Step careful, now. By that criterion, it's time for long technical threads about getting obscure graphics adapters to work under Windows 3.1. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Sep 28 18:39:28 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:39:28 -0500 Subject: Looking for: BCC180 schematics and.. In-Reply-To: <0INJ00K67APN9Q75@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0INJ00K67APN9Q75@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050928183928.00000845@brass> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:52:50 -0400 Allison wrote: > I'm looking for schematics for MicroMint BCC180 rev1. > I am too. But MicroMint still sells the Technical Reference and people here frown on even suggesting anybody share a copy. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Sep 28 18:53:21 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:53:21 -0400 Subject: Looking for: BCC180 schematics and.. Message-ID: <0INJ002DNWYDEQC2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Looking for: BCC180 schematics and.. > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:39:28 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:52:50 -0400 >Allison wrote: > >> I'm looking for schematics for MicroMint BCC180 rev1. >> > >I am too. But MicroMint still sells the Technical Reference and people >here frown on even suggesting anybody share a copy. I'll have to sell something and go buy it then. I am concerned their tech reference is not for Rev1. Allison From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Sep 28 07:18:59 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 08:18:59 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050927164124.05148d80@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 9/27/05 4:57 PM, "Roger Merchberger" wrote: > At the risk of 1) dragging this weird topic back *on* topic, and 2) pizzing > off people by being pro-M$[1] -- M$ has made several useful minimalistic > OSs - just look at the Tandy 100/102/200, M$'s HH/OS in the Tandy 600, and > other examples out there in classicland... > > And it's not *all* M$'s fault, either! I feel that XP would be about 1/2 > size, if it wasn't for all the dancing dogs & wizards that those of us who > can actually run a computer don't need - they put it in there for all the > lusers... XP can be reduced to 1/2 the size - without removing *any* functionality. Drivers, wizards, etc. Remvoing services and stuff, you can go even further down! The core OS, however, will still be intact. The core of XP isn't as big as you'd think, it's really fun to chop it up and still have it work =] From mbbrutman at brutman.com Wed Sep 28 19:09:11 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:09:11 -0500 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <200509281620.j8SGKXKh081531@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509281620.j8SGKXKh081531@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <433B30A7.2020002@brutman.com> > The problem with those diagnostics (and most built-in diagnostics) is > that a fairly large part of the machine has to be operational (at > least the CPU, some memory, ROM, video) for them to be at all useful. > -tony One of the lesser known features of the PCjr was the manufacturing test mode. I think output was via the ports on the back. (Not the famous 'L' port though, which appears to have no use.) The manufacturing test mode required a lot less of the machine to be functional than the user level diagnostics or the advanced diagnostics. Even for machines that run diagnostics from disk, assuming that the memory or CPU is ok is a big leap. To do diagnostics correctly you really need an external processor or an onboard service processor like midrange machines do, and the appropriate debug ports on the parts you are going to test. Mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 28 17:59:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:59:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <433A225F.5020005@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Sep 27, 5 11:55:59 pm Message-ID: > > The problem with those diagnostics (and most built-in diagnostics) is > > that a fairly large part of the machine has to be operational (at least > > the CPU, some memory, ROM, video) for them to be at all useful. > > While it is rare that a minor error will surface in, say, the CPU (I have NEVER > seen a CPU go gradually, like "whoops, now I can't ADD or SHL" -- it's all or I've never had a CPU do that, actually, but I have had other LSI devices fail in really odd ways, so I could well believe it could happen. > nothing), the diagnostics run in something like 1K of ROM with no memory use > other than video so they are helpful in diagnosing RAM problems. And the IIRC, there is no separate video RAM on the PCjr, the video circuit just takes some of the main RAM. And while you can have random bit failures in RAM, I've found that either complete chips failing or address inputs failing (so that locations appear to repeat) is much more common. > sound, joystick, video, and floppy drive tests are helpful in determining if > the machine is functional on a basic level -- I always run them on any new PCjr > I come across to determine if it's worth hauling away or not :-) Over here, PCjr machines are sufficiently rare that just about any is worth grabbing. Apart from a defective gate array chip, I think just about any problem is repairable. -tony From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Sep 28 19:14:07 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:14:07 -0500 Subject: Looking for: BCC180 schematics and.. In-Reply-To: <0INJ002DNWYDEQC2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0INJ002DNWYDEQC2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050928191407.00001145@brass> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:53:21 -0400 Allison wrote: > > > >Subject: Re: Looking for: BCC180 schematics and.. > > From: Scott Stevens > > Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:39:28 -0500 > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > >On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:52:50 -0400 > >Allison wrote: > > > >> I'm looking for schematics for MicroMint BCC180 rev1. > >> > > > >I am too. But MicroMint still sells the Technical Reference and people > >here frown on even suggesting anybody share a copy. > > I'll have to sell something and go buy it then. I am concerned their > tech reference is not for Rev1. > > A helpful suggestion is that I found this place: http://www.maxipub.com/electro/microcontrollers.html They're selling BCC-180 boards used for $90 and say " Each board comes with instruction manual and software (if needed)". If it comes with the entire manual, that's a better deal than $25 for the manual alone. This appears to be the kind of 'controller' board where there is a legacy market and the vendor takes the long-term approach of keeping it commercial for a LONG time. MicroMint still wants $499 for a new BCC-180. > Allison > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 28 18:01:50 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 00:01:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <200509280730.j8S7U2XW026673@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> from "Barry Watzman" at Sep 28, 5 03:30:11 am Message-ID: > > Re: "I've seen an LED map light that plugs into and gets its power from USB. > It seemed to work OK." > > That's nothing. Computer Geeks is selling a motorized USB "Aquarium" .... a > clear plastic "tank" in which motorized fish (or perhaps just a mural of > fish) move, powered from a USB port. Whule I can see the point of taking power from the computer for an interface converter, keyboard, mouse, something like that, wouldn't it be simpler if devices like the aquarium, light, etc had their own mains adapters? Or is a computer now regarded as simpler than a 5V PSU? -tony From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Sep 28 19:23:41 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:23:41 -0500 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <20050928181124.00004feb@brass> References: <200509280553.WAA08452@floodgap.com> <433B1A86.5050101@oldskool.org> <20050928181124.00004feb@brass> Message-ID: <433B340D.5000402@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > 3-Demon was a truly > advanced graphic application to run on a first-generation PC. You haven't tried Flight Simulator on a PCjr, evidently :-) THAT was advanced. (And aware -- if you had version 2.0, it could detect if you had extra memory and offered to move the program into that extra RAM so it could run faster) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Sep 28 19:24:43 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:24:43 -0500 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <433B30A7.2020002@brutman.com> References: <200509281620.j8SGKXKh081531@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433B30A7.2020002@brutman.com> Message-ID: <433B344B.4080307@oldskool.org> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > One of the lesser known features of the PCjr was the manufacturing test > mode. I think output was via the ports on the back. (Not the famous > 'L' port though, which appears to have no use.) The manufacturing test > mode required a lot less of the machine to be functional than the user > level diagnostics or the advanced diagnostics. I have the hardware reference with all of the dongles, but I've never actually had a reason to use them (all my PCjrs still function). But that is good to know, thanks. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 28 19:25:10 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 17:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <1127942907.20410.10.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > Looks pretty cool on the specs. Do you find the keyboard usable? General > reliability? Proprietary connectors, probably... is the serial lead > easily available? These seems to be going for about 30-100 pounds on > ebay. Then add the shipping cost from GB. One could just about touch type on the keyboard, which is somewhat remarkable given the not quite 7 inch length of the keyboard. They tend to be very reliable, but start to have problems once they are dropped too often (as was the case with mine). The serial lead is standard, and easy to get if missing from one you might purchase second-hand. A complete setup can be had for under US$100 on eBay. They still have a rather large following and so don't expect to get one for cheap unless it's very broken or you get very lucky. > Genuine questions, not trying to make a comparison. My ideal compromise > between a PDA and a notebook would be something like the TRS-80 Model > 100 but with a faster CPU, flash port, modern connectivity. But the > Psion leans too much toward the PDA end for me. Then perhaps you want the Series 7? At any rate, the EPOC32 OS that comes with the Psion is a true 32-bit multitasking OS, and puts to absolute shame anything that MS can come up with. And quite frankly it's better than anything Palm has for that matter. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 28 19:28:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 17:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <433B18B2.8090101@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > The "BASIC Adventure", however, was stupid and misguided. Boot with no disk in > the drive and no hard drive, and you'll go into BASIC. Hit ESC as the very > first key and you'll go into this... game-thing-whatever it is. > http://www.eeggs.com/items/40624.html has documentation. Cool! I love hardware easter eggs. There's a few I know of in the Mac and in Apple ]['s, including the //c and the //gs. Here's the Apple //c one: Apple //c (Original) Entering the following program from BASIC will produce the names of three people on the Apple //c programming team: 10 IN#5 20 INPUT A$ 30 PRINT A$ This is an excerpt from a file I put out years ago: http://siconic.com/files/dsgskeehm Please excuse the lame rhetoric...I was way uptight back then. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 28 18:49:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 00:49:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <433B30A7.2020002@brutman.com> from "Michael B. Brutman" at Sep 28, 5 07:09:11 pm Message-ID: > > > > > The problem with those diagnostics (and most built-in diagnostics) is > > that a fairly large part of the machine has to be operational (at > > least the CPU, some memory, ROM, video) for them to be at all useful. > > > -tony > > > One of the lesser known features of the PCjr was the manufacturing test > mode. I think output was via the ports on the back. (Not the famous Accroding to the BIOS source listings, some test outputs are written to ports of the 8255 chip on the mainboard. I think the only way to get to them is with a text clip on that IC. These tests are basically the same as the POST tests in a PC, etc. I've not had time to properly read the BIOS source, but it appears there was a burn-in test mode which you got by grounding all 4 joystick button lines and powering the machine up. > 'L' port though, which appears to have no use.) The manufacturing test According to the schematiocs, there are 5 pins on the L connector. 1 is ground, the other 4 are not connected 'spares'. -tony From news at computercollector.com Wed Sep 28 19:37:20 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 20:37:20 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004f01c5c48d$f4d12ff0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> >>> Then perhaps you want the Series 7? At any rate, the EPOC32 OS that comes with the Psion is a true 32-bit multitasking OS, and puts to absolute shame anything that MS can come up with. And quite frankly it's better than anything Palm has for that matter. LOL, I traded a Series 7 for the original Psion Organiser (1984)... How's that for bringing this back on-topic? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 8:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PalmOS no more? :( On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > Looks pretty cool on the specs. Do you find the keyboard usable? > General reliability? Proprietary connectors, probably... is the serial > lead easily available? These seems to be going for about 30-100 pounds > on ebay. Then add the shipping cost from GB. One could just about touch type on the keyboard, which is somewhat remarkable given the not quite 7 inch length of the keyboard. They tend to be very reliable, but start to have problems once they are dropped too often (as was the case with mine). The serial lead is standard, and easy to get if missing from one you might purchase second-hand. A complete setup can be had for under US$100 on eBay. They still have a rather large following and so don't expect to get one for cheap unless it's very broken or you get very lucky. > Genuine questions, not trying to make a comparison. My ideal > compromise between a PDA and a notebook would be something like the > TRS-80 Model 100 but with a faster CPU, flash port, modern > connectivity. But the Psion leans too much toward the PDA end for me. Then perhaps you want the Series 7? At any rate, the EPOC32 OS that comes with the Psion is a true 32-bit multitasking OS, and puts to absolute shame anything that MS can come up with. And quite frankly it's better than anything Palm has for that matter. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From lproven at gmail.com Wed Sep 28 19:51:44 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 01:51:44 +0100 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> On 28/09/05, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > My Kyocera 7135 has all the features you listed, Never heard of it. [Googles] No it bloody well doesn't. The Psion 5/5mx & Ericsson MC218 weren't phones, they were PDAs. The best PDA made so far. Your phone doesn't have a keyboard at all; it has a key*pad*. The Psion has a three-quarter size full-travel QWERTY keyboard upon which it's possible to touchtype. Your phone has a stamp-sized screen, albeit in colour. But who /needs/ colour? The Psion has a 640x240, half-VGA mono LCD. Kinda green by today's standards but excellent for 1998. 40h use? I flat-out don't believe you. That's /use/ - not standby time, which is many *months*. We're talking 2 *days* of *continuous* operation. A proper, smooth, very fast, well-integrated multitasking OS with basic memory protection. Accepts up to a gig of storage on CF. Doesn't sync well to a PC, but you never needed to. The Psion /was/ your PIM. You could both file-transfer and simply cut&paste between Psion and Windows. Multitasked with all PC apps and OSs, and Mac and Linux too. They were wonderful little machines. Never really took off in the US, like so much non-US tech. But then, I wondered around Colorado with my Newton 2100 in '99 or so and all the Murricans were amazed by my cool foreign toy. :?( I miss my Psion. I've moved to a Nokia 7710 smartphone - 640x350 colour touchscreen, same processor but 10x faster, 10x as much storage, and same OS but in a newer version (v7 instead of v5), Bluetooth instead of IRDA, MMC instead of CF, stereo sound, plays MP3 & MP4, FM radio... It's vastly slower, crashes regularly, I can't run my old apps 'cos the newer OS uses Unicode, the screen is cramped because of hyuuuge fonts and widgets, made garish by ugle themes (I hate display themes in software) and i want my sodding keyboard back. I have a Bluetooth one but it's not the same. Technology sometimes moves backwards. Yes, the Nokia is a phone, camera & music player too, but it's a vastly inferior, slower, less stable, more feature-poor PDA. I'd give good money like a shot for a modern Psion. Same size, make the CF slot CF2, add in SDIO/MMC & Bluetooth and a headphone socket. Link via USB instead of RS232. Like the Nokia, 10x the RAM, 10x the speed - tho' 40x the speed is now doable. I don't even really need a colour screen - I'd rather have good battery life. -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Sep 28 20:01:32 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:01:32 -0700 Subject: Some interesting boards by another seller on Ebay (sanyo, godbout, etc) Message-ID: <433B3CEC.506@msm.umr.edu> I would not bother with ebay and have all have to search, but i found boards by several vendors that should be of interest to people on this list. The list of boards looks like one of us died, and all our boards went to this guy. Sanyo ICON Smile Host Interface Board (Used) Sanyo ICON PCP/16 16 Port Serial Board (Used) Sanyo ICON MDCP/3 Interface Board (Used) Sanyo ICON CPU / RISC Board w/ 24MB RAM (Used) Sanyo ICON MPS020-2 MultiBus Adapter w/ Systech Card Konan MFM drive / controller / cables, no software Lots of Godbout boards (counted maybe 5, before I quit) Lots of Atari Stuff (Curt, you interested in older stuff, 400 / 800, etc). INtel Above board. this is interesting if anyone here is running Intel ICE. the support software would not run unless you also had an above board, not an EMS board of generic type, in your 286 or 386 system. 3b2, though I recall someone giving one of those away recently The vendor name is repc_auctions. If this was discussed here and I missed it, I'm still running days behind in getting all emails of the discussion group. Jim From jhoger at pobox.com Wed Sep 28 20:16:36 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:16:36 -0700 Subject: model 100 backup nicad In-Reply-To: <20050928182600.00007949@brass> References: <200509271851.j8RIpZFe006528@onyx.spiritone.com> <433996F5.2040307@gmail.com> <6.2.5.4.2.20050927203318.03340148@boff-net.dhs.org> <20050928182600.00007949@brass> Message-ID: <1127956597.20410.42.camel@aragorn> On Wed, 2005-09-28 at 18:26 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > The Model 100 is the king of > vintage portables, though, and it just slowly eats regular batteries. As you probably know there is a rechargeable nicad on the M100 board that backs up the RAM. These unfortunately do conk out eventually barfing battery acid onto the board. Better to replace it before that happens. -- John. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 28 20:26:45 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> Message-ID: <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> Yet Another Ten Year Rule Discussion) On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Step careful, now. By that criterion, it's time for long technical > threads about getting obscure graphics adapters to work under Windows > 3.1. It's WAY worse than that. Under the simplistic 10 year rule, Windoze 95 is now "ON-TOPIC"! Under the "coolness" principle, it might NEVER be on-topic. OB_OT: Yesterday, I saw a Packard Bell running 95. I didn't know that they would last this long. From mbbrutman at brutman.com Wed Sep 28 20:28:21 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 20:28:21 -0500 Subject: PCjr (Was Re: IBM PC hacking) In-Reply-To: <200509290040.j8T0dQT3086863@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509290040.j8T0dQT3086863@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <433B4335.2030503@brutman.com> I don't think that the lack of a DMA controller on the PCjr really slowed it down any. The old double density drives have a data rate of 250,000 bps. If the data is presented one byte at a time, that is just 31250 bytes per second. Even with multiple I/O clock cycles per byte to get it to the processor and then to memory, a 4.77Mhz processor can keep up with that easily. Where the lack of DMA would hurt you is on a much faster interface, such as a hard disk. Then you wouldn't have any cycles to spare, the the difference would show up. On a PCjr the lack of DMA shows up most when doing something time critical, such as servicing the serial port. The damn things can not access the floppy drive and run the serial port at the same time. As for the speed of a Jr, it's glacial compared to a PC because the first 128K of memory was shared with the video subsystem. It wasn't dual ported RAM, so the CPU had to wait while the VGA (Video Gate Array) chip refreshed the screen. The system was flexible in that almost 128K of RAM could be allocated to the video buffers, but that feature probably wasn't worth the performance hit. The best speed modification you can make to a Jr is to add more memory, and run your programs and data from there. Leave the first 128K for video and RAM disk. Unfortunately, DOS and the BIOS like to keep a lot of vital data down low, so you can't avoid that memory entirely. One of the Tandy 1000s was similar to the Jr, but they did the memory allocation correctly. They borrowed from the top of memory, not the bottom. That generally hid the performance problem and let DOS use more than 128K of memory without loading a device driver. Yes, a strange machine ... Mike From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Sep 28 20:31:20 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:31:20 -0400 Subject: Looking for: BCC180 schematics and.. Message-ID: <0INK00BSI1HNMH40@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Looking for: BCC180 schematics and.. > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:14:07 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 11:52:50 -0400 >> >Allison wrote: >> > >> >> I'm looking for schematics for MicroMint BCC180 rev1. >> >> >> > >> >I am too. But MicroMint still sells the Technical Reference and >people >> >here frown on even suggesting anybody share a copy. >> >> I'll have to sell something and go buy it then. I am concerned their >> tech reference is not for Rev1. >> >> >A helpful suggestion is that I found this place: > >http://www.maxipub.com/electro/microcontrollers.html > >They're selling BCC-180 boards used for $90 and say " Each board comes >with instruction manual and software (if needed)". If it comes with the >entire manual, that's a better deal than $25 for the manual alone. > >This appears to be the kind of 'controller' board where there is a >legacy market and the vendor takes the long-term approach of keeping it >commercial for a LONG time. MicroMint still wants $499 for a new >BCC-180. Basic Z80 thing. OK, this case a Z180 but that cpu is one of the legends of the controls industry. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 28 20:33:20 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050928183134.X9790@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > Whule I can see the point of taking power from the computer for an > interface converter, keyboard, mouse, something like that, wouldn't it be > simpler if devices like the aquarium, light, etc had their own mains > adapters? Or is a computer now regarded as simpler than a 5V PSU? Are modern machines good for anything ELSE? How well do they do that? I'm not sure that I'd trust modern machines with anything that needed precise regulated voltage. From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Sep 28 20:38:21 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > XP can be reduced to 1/2 the size - without removing *any* functionality. > Drivers, wizards, etc. Remvoing services and stuff, you can go even further > down! The core OS, however, will still be intact. The core of XP isn't as > big as you'd think, it's really fun to chop it up and still have it work =] Windows Muntzing. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Sep 28 20:40:36 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:40:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <433B1A86.5050101@oldskool.org> Message-ID: > > I have to admit, even though I'm not a PC fan by any means, I found the PCjr > > fascinating. It didn't deserve the fate it got (though it *did* deserve a > > better price point than it was saddled with). > > I have several, as I've always found them fascinating: > > - They had diagnostics, BASIC, a "game" and other stuff in ROM I am trying to find a reason to keep my PCjr, so it comes down to this - were there any mainframe communications developed for the thing? Hey, even the 5100 could talk to an S/3. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 28 20:41:33 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:41:33 -0700 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: At 6:26 PM -0700 9/28/05, Fred Cisin wrote: >Yet Another Ten Year Rule Discussion) >It's WAY worse than that. Under the simplistic 10 year rule, Windoze 95 >is now "ON-TOPIC"! > >Under the "coolness" principle, it might NEVER be on-topic. I don't know about that, I've seen a couple of systems that might squeak in under the "coolness" rule. One is those really tiny Toshiba palm/lap-tops, the other was a model of IBM desktop. >OB_OT: Yesterday, I saw a Packard Bell running 95. I didn't know that >they would last this long. It's got to be a fluke. You know if you make enough of something, a few have to have lasted this long. Another possible answer is that it fell through a time warp :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 28 20:51:16 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:51:16 -0400 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <00ec01c5c498$48181ca0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:26 PM Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( > Yet Another Ten Year Rule Discussion) > On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > Step careful, now. By that criterion, it's time for long technical > > threads about getting obscure graphics adapters to work under Windows > > 3.1. > > It's WAY worse than that. Under the simplistic 10 year rule, Windoze 95 > is now "ON-TOPIC"! > > Under the "coolness" principle, it might NEVER be on-topic. > > > OB_OT: Yesterday, I saw a Packard Bell running 95. I didn't know that > they would last this long. While Windows 3.1 and 95 might not be "cool" these days, I predict it will be in 10 or more years to quite a few people. I have machines dedicated to Windows 3.1 and Win 95 now to run old apps I have (Win 3.11) or to play retro games (Win 95). Every collector has an era of machines they are interested in for various reasons, what is cool to you might not be cool to me. Do people just have issues with mainstream OS's and hardware? If IBM owned the desktop market today with OS/2 would Win 3.1 and 95 be cool to talk about? From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Sep 28 20:54:06 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <003e01c5c468$213dfa80$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: > Silly toys? In trying to turn this tide of the list lately a little more to the heavy side, I would like announce my new machine, an IBM 5340 System/34. I got a full set of diagnostics and manuals, so I can get a real idea of how the thing works. Very interesting, to say the least. S/34s are dual processored 16 bit minis, with one processor running the OS and the other running user tasks. There is a great deal of fault tolerance built in, all the way to checking the results on the ALUs against predicting circuits. Apparently IBM tried to aim at more than just the RPG and COBOL markets, as BASIC and FORTRAN were also available. This should be a plug and play machine - no three phase needed, and the thing is in pretty darn nice condition. I hope it does not need work, as I have other machines that have been in storage too long. So send me all of your palms and other PDAs, so I can study how fast I need to get the S/34 rolling to completely crush each model under the casters. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From news at computercollector.com Wed Sep 28 20:57:36 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:57:36 -0400 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <00ec01c5c498$48181ca0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <007401c5c499$2aa8e7c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Vintage is very simple: it must be architecturally obsolete. Windows 95 isn't. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Teo Zenios Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:51 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:26 PM Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( > Yet Another Ten Year Rule Discussion) > On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > Step careful, now. By that criterion, it's time for long technical > > threads about getting obscure graphics adapters to work under Windows > > 3.1. > > It's WAY worse than that. Under the simplistic 10 year rule, Windoze 95 > is now "ON-TOPIC"! > > Under the "coolness" principle, it might NEVER be on-topic. > > > OB_OT: Yesterday, I saw a Packard Bell running 95. I didn't know that > they would last this long. While Windows 3.1 and 95 might not be "cool" these days, I predict it will be in 10 or more years to quite a few people. I have machines dedicated to Windows 3.1 and Win 95 now to run old apps I have (Win 3.11) or to play retro games (Win 95). Every collector has an era of machines they are interested in for various reasons, what is cool to you might not be cool to me. Do people just have issues with mainstream OS's and hardware? If IBM owned the desktop market today with OS/2 would Win 3.1 and 95 be cool to talk about? From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Sep 28 20:59:34 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:59:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <007401c5c499$2aa8e7c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: > Vintage is very simple: it must be architecturally obsolete. Windows 95 > isn't. Neither is the S/360 then. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 28 21:01:57 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <007401c5c499$2aa8e7c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> References: <007401c5c499$2aa8e7c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <20050928190114.P9790@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Vintage is very simple: it must be architecturally obsolete. Windows 95 > isn't. I contend that Windoze95 was obsolete several years before it was released. From news at computercollector.com Wed Sep 28 21:13:39 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:13:39 -0400 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050928190114.P9790@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <008301c5c49b$6908da50$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> >>> Windoze95 was obsolete several years before it was released. No, I don't mean in the sense of whether we like it or not, I mean whether the world still uses the same basic design. So whether we like Windows or not, there's the reality of Microsoft's market share. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 10:02 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Vintage is very simple: it must be architecturally obsolete. Windows > 95 isn't. I contend that Windoze95 was obsolete several years before it was released. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 28 21:25:01 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <008301c5c49b$6908da50$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> References: <008301c5c49b$6908da50$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <20050928192112.U9790@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > >>> Windoze95 was obsolete several years before it was released. > > No, I don't mean in the sense of whether we like it or not, I mean whether > the world still uses the same basic design. So whether we like Windows or > not, there's the reality of Microsoft's market share. OK. not "obsolete" but "discontinued" 95, 98, ME were windoze ~4 running as a task on DOS ~7 But NT, 2K, XP have MAJOR internal changes, and are based more on Microsoft OS/2 (by Gordon Letwin), and code provided by Dave Cutler? (presumably "stolen" from DEC) Therefore, it COULD be argued that much (not all) of the internal structures of 95/98/ME IS discontinued. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 28 21:23:27 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 20:23:27 -0600 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <20050928190114.P9790@shell.lmi.net> References: <007401c5c499$2aa8e7c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> <20050928190114.P9790@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <433B501F.4010005@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > >>Vintage is very simple: it must be architecturally obsolete. Windows 95 >>isn't. > > > I contend that Windoze95 was obsolete several years before it was > released. > But what choice did we ( users ) have in the matter? The PC was the only affordable while crappy system we had if I remember what systems I got to use in the 80's and 90's. Sadly only this list here still talks about *other* machines. Upgrading your PC does seem to a) What cool neon color your case. b) What USB feature of the day. c) Red Hat is the only other OS for your computer other than M$. Since a lot of people seem to have used better? if not bigger systems what should we be really running? From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 28 21:46:20 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:46:20 -0400 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( References: <007401c5c499$2aa8e7c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <010b01c5c49f$f97166d0$0500fea9@game> Well Windows 3.1 IS obsolete on many levels, yet still not "vintage" to people here. ----- Original Message ----- From: "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:57 PM Subject: RE: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( > Vintage is very simple: it must be architecturally obsolete. Windows 95 > isn't. > From gilcarrick at comcast.net Wed Sep 28 22:01:05 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:01:05 -0500 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050928192112.U9790@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200509290310.j8T3AcjZ043764@keith.ezwind.net> ... > But NT, 2K, XP have MAJOR internal changes, and are based > more on Microsoft OS/2 (by Gordon Letwin), and code provided > by Dave Cutler? > (presumably "stolen" from DEC) NT does not have "major changes" from 95 et al. It was a ground up rewrite. You could argue that the NT design is greatly influenced by VMS, which Cutler directed, but I doubt that there is any code in it from VMS. What programmer ever existed who did not think he could do it better given the chance to do it again? > Therefore, it COULD be argued that much (not all) of the > internal structures of 95/98/ME IS discontinued. Name something that isn't. ... Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE Coach - ICPC Programming Team University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From news at computercollector.com Wed Sep 28 22:02:45 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:02:45 -0400 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <010b01c5c49f$f97166d0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <008401c5c4a2$44c5ffe0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Well then, it's not obsolete ** enough **. But we can keep trying to make it so. :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Teo Zenios Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 10:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( Well Windows 3.1 IS obsolete on many levels, yet still not "vintage" to people here. ----- Original Message ----- From: "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:57 PM Subject: RE: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( > Vintage is very simple: it must be architecturally obsolete. Windows 95 > isn't. > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 28 22:03:00 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 20:03:00 -0700 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <010b01c5c49f$f97166d0$0500fea9@game> References: <007401c5c499$2aa8e7c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> <010b01c5c49f$f97166d0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: >Well Windows 3.1 IS obsolete on many levels, yet still not "vintage" to >people here. More importantly, it's not very interesting, but then it never was! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mbg at world.std.com Wed Sep 28 22:05:57 2005 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan Gentry) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:05:57 -0400 Subject: Where can I get DECmail-11? In-Reply-To: References: <3D86D46B6D24D642AC9BB09DD8CF335F0F55B805@hermes.CLCILLINOIS.EDU> <17108.15169.491574.74268@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <433B5A15.9030100@world.std.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > On Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > > >>>>>>>"Julian" == Julian Wolfe writes: >> >> Julian> Hey I was just curious, because I don't see DECmail-11 listed >> Julian> on Mentec's or HP's website, does that mean that they don't >> Julian> care about DECmail-11 anymore? If so, does anyone know where >> Julian> I can get a copy? >> >>It's a PDP11 program so it should belong to Mentec now, since they got >>all DEC PDP11 software as far as I know. It may be that they haven't >>bothered listing it. Email might help. > > > No, they didn't get all PDP-11 software. As far as I know, XXDP is still > with DEC, as is IAS. > So it was not a general and complete transfer of all software, but rather > one of specific things... Hi there... I'm catching up with old mail... I have been looking for DECMail-11 for years... the closest I got was some header files for the BasicPlus source... I've used them to try to write some Linux code which at least reads and converts DECMail-11 files to something readable by unix... If you find more, please let me know... megan From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Sep 28 22:07:57 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:07:57 -0500 Subject: Hobbyist VMS Message-ID: <6c1ade3402914a1b82dad9113a58b09c@valleyimplants.com> check out http://vmsone.com- looks to have all the layered products up under webpages:OpenVMS Kits. Haven't got my VMS skills to where I have tried them, yet, but it looks like the read deal. This is John Wisniewski's site, and I'm not sure who has custody of it or how long it will be up now that he's gone, so possibly someone with a high-speed connection could look at mirroring the VMS stuff. -Scott Quinn From news at computercollector.com Wed Sep 28 22:10:01 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:10:01 -0400 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008501c5c4a3$486aa870$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Good point. I usually say that to be vintage, it has to be obsolete and "unique when it was new" -- but then we'd be excluding a lot of the follow-ups / clones of vintage stuff. But it we allow that technicality, the two-part definition pretty much works. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:03 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( >Well Windows 3.1 IS obsolete on many levels, yet still not "vintage" to >people here. More importantly, it's not very interesting, but then it never was! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Wed Sep 28 22:22:07 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:22:07 -0500 Subject: conserving paper stick-on IC labels Message-ID: <8d4581f5f57a4010830d271e16f2d9b5@valleyimplants.com> What is the best practice for conserving the stick-on custom labels on programmed logic (PALs, EPROMS, etc.)? I have a number in the IRIS that are falling off because of dried glue, and I'm debating the best way to reattach, or should new ones be made? From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 28 22:47:27 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:47:27 -0400 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( References: <007401c5c499$2aa8e7c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> <010b01c5c49f$f97166d0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <013401c5c4a8$831a5ce0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:03 PM Subject: Re: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( > >Well Windows 3.1 IS obsolete on many levels, yet still not "vintage" to > >people here. > > More importantly, it's not very interesting, but then it never was! > > Zane > > Maybe if you look at the OS itself, but the hardware and software built to run on Windows 3.1 is what interests me (complete package). From ikvsabre at comcast.net Wed Sep 28 22:53:00 2005 From: ikvsabre at comcast.net (Joe Stevenson) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:53:00 -0400 Subject: identifying PC Simms In-Reply-To: References: <007401c5c499$2aa8e7c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> <010b01c5c49f$f97166d0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <200509282353000765.2C901E64@smtp.comcast.net> Hi all, I have 16 30-pin simms left over from various past incarnations of my PCs, and I'm trying to figure out what I've got. I no longer have a motherboard to test them, so I have no idea what is what. Is there any not-to-painless way to figure out what I've got? Joe From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Sep 28 23:00:39 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:00:39 -0500 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050928230039.000040cb@brass> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Fred Cisin wrote: > Yet Another Ten Year Rule Discussion) > On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > Step careful, now. By that criterion, it's time for long technical > > threads about getting obscure graphics adapters to work under Windows > > 3.1. > > It's WAY worse than that. Under the simplistic 10 year rule, Windoze 95 > is now "ON-TOPIC"! > > Under the "coolness" principle, it might NEVER be on-topic. > > There are 'aspects' of Windows 95 that are interesting. Did you know that there is a 5-1/4" floppy version of Windows 95? It's for HD floppies, but it does exist. I ordered it using the coupon in the back of my 'CD' version of Windows 95. It has the unique feature of being the OLDEST and SMALLEST version of Windows 95. Copy all the diskettes into one big directory and you have an aprox 30 meg cluster of files. Install it on a system and it is an extremely no-frills version. No Internet nothin' for example. And it doesn't prompt for a CD key to install, and it doesn't 'fingerprint' the diskettes like the 3-1/2" diskette version. It's the version of Windows 95 to install on a machine that just needs the bare minimum install, i.e. a workbench system that you have some 32 bit emulator tool or what-not that you need working. Even scarier, one time I was digging through the bins at some surplus outfit, and I came up with, like diskette #54 for an install of Microsoft Word for Windows, the 5-1/4" DSDD version. Not sure where the other 53 diskettes were, or if there were 60 or 80 total. But someone, somewhere, has that. Being an 'original software media' collector, I ALWAYS order the alternative media unless it's prohibitively expensive. So I have Windows 98 on 3-1/2" floppies. Windows NT 3.51 on 3-1/2" floppies. Tons and tons of diskettes. Usually for close to what blank diskettes would have cost (Microsoft for some odd reason sent me two sets of Windows 98 diskettes and charged me only for the one). Sorry. A bit of blather about the Redmonders, I guess. From vp at cs.drexel.edu Wed Sep 28 23:00:37 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 00:00:37 -0400 Subject: IBM PC hacking Message-ID: <20050929040037.4A70D200D04D@mail.cs.drexel.edu> > > Then again, could you do useful word-processing work on a cassette-based > > machine? Anyone who use Atari 8-bit, C64, etc. -- was this common? I assume > > Scripsit (for the TRS-80 Model 1 and 3) was certainly available on a > cassette, with load/save of your text to cassette. It worked, but it > wasn't that practical :-) The BBC micro was cassette-based, but had a word processor in ROM (View). I remember using cassettes to save letters etc. Eventually I saved enough money to buy a single 720K floppy drive by Cumana (sp?). **vp From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Sep 28 23:02:40 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:02:40 -0500 Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <433B6760.6040502@mdrconsult.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>Re: "I've seen an LED map light that plugs into and gets its power from USB. >>It seemed to work OK." >> >>That's nothing. Computer Geeks is selling a motorized USB "Aquarium" .... a >>clear plastic "tank" in which motorized fish (or perhaps just a mural of >>fish) move, powered from a USB port. > > > Whule I can see the point of taking power from the computer for an > interface converter, keyboard, mouse, something like that, wouldn't it be > simpler if devices like the aquarium, light, etc had their own mains > adapters? Or is a computer now regarded as simpler than a 5V PSU? Haven't you guys seen the USB-powered "personal massager"? I guess it's intended for those late-night surfing sessions, when your, uhh, _neck_ gets really stiff. Doc From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Sep 28 23:05:40 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:05:40 -0500 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <00ec01c5c498$48181ca0$0500fea9@game> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <00ec01c5c498$48181ca0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20050928230540.00006447@brass> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:51:16 -0400 "Teo Zenios" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fred Cisin" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 9:26 PM > Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( > > > > Yet Another Ten Year Rule Discussion) > > On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > Step careful, now. By that criterion, it's time for long technical > > > threads about getting obscure graphics adapters to work under Windows > > > 3.1. > > > > It's WAY worse than that. Under the simplistic 10 year rule, Windoze 95 > > is now "ON-TOPIC"! > > > > Under the "coolness" principle, it might NEVER be on-topic. > > > > > > OB_OT: Yesterday, I saw a Packard Bell running 95. I didn't know that > > they would last this long. > > While Windows 3.1 and 95 might not be "cool" these days, I predict it will > be in 10 or more years to quite a few people. I have machines dedicated to > Windows 3.1 and Win 95 now to run old apps I have (Win 3.11) or to play > retro games (Win 95). Every collector has an era of machines they are > interested in for various reasons, what is cool to you might not be cool to > me. Do people just have issues with mainstream OS's and hardware? If IBM > owned the desktop market today with OS/2 would Win 3.1 and 95 be cool to > talk about? > Right now I am trawling around the net on a Quadra 650, to see what is possible and what's not. Some interesting surprises I am finding. The 'Low End Mac' website crashes when you try to go there on a Quadra 650 using Netscape 4. Huh? Internet Explorer 4.01 is still available for Mac 68k if you trawl around enough looking for it. (don't bother looking at Microsoft) Not as interesting as the time I installed Windows NT for PowerPC on an RS/6000 box and trawled around trying to find anything AT ALL on the net that it would run. (You're stuck with the Internet Explorer 2.0 that comes built into NT, which _won't_ _even_ _load_ _www.microsoft.com_ _anymore._ From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Sep 28 23:06:59 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:06:59 -0500 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <20050928190114.P9790@shell.lmi.net> References: <007401c5c499$2aa8e7c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> <20050928190114.P9790@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <433B6863.5060300@mdrconsult.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > >>Vintage is very simple: it must be architecturally obsolete. Windows 95 >>isn't. > > > I contend that Windoze95 was obsolete several years before it was > released. Dammit Fred, you beat me to it. Doc From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Sep 28 23:09:21 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:09:21 -0500 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <007401c5c499$2aa8e7c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> References: <00ec01c5c498$48181ca0$0500fea9@game> <007401c5c499$2aa8e7c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <20050928230921.00001472@brass> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:57:36 -0400 "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" wrote: > Vintage is very simple: it must be architecturally obsolete. Windows 95 > isn't. > The Zenith SuperSport 386sx laptop that I am using to explore Assembly Language is thus vintage. I'm running Windows 3.1 without a mouse simply to give me a crude task-switching environment between MASM, my editor, linker, etc. You have to FORCE Windows 3.1 to run in 386 enhanced mode on a machine like the Zenith with only 2M of RAM. I should probably use DesqView instead. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Sep 28 23:15:32 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:15:32 -0500 Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <20050928183134.X9790@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050928183134.X9790@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050928231532.00004793@brass> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Whule I can see the point of taking power from the computer for an > > interface converter, keyboard, mouse, something like that, wouldn't it be > > simpler if devices like the aquarium, light, etc had their own mains > > adapters? Or is a computer now regarded as simpler than a 5V PSU? > > Are modern machines good for anything ELSE? > How well do they do that? > I'm not sure that I'd trust modern machines with anything that > needed precise regulated voltage. > There are Middle-era PC Clone machines that are pretty much only useful as power supplies. A few times when I've needed quick-and-dirty 12 volts I have taken an old clone supply and tapped into the yellow and black of a drive cable connector. The only thing is, the PC switchers won't start up and regulate properly without a nominal load on the 5 volt line. So you plug in and duct tape an old 3-1/2" hard drive to the power supply and use it as a 'dummy load.' I've used such contrivances for example, as the power source for an old '286 laptop that I didn't have the power adaptor for. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 28 23:16:26 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:16:26 -0700 Subject: Hobbyist VMS In-Reply-To: <6c1ade3402914a1b82dad9113a58b09c@valleyimplants.com> References: <6c1ade3402914a1b82dad9113a58b09c@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: > This is John Wisniewski's site, and I'm not sure who has custody of >it or how long it will be up now that he's gone, so possibly someone >with a high-speed connection could look at mirroring the VMS stuff. Are you sure it's John's site? The date/time stamps on the stuff I've looked at are about 8 1/2 months after his death. Personally what interests me is the collection of DECUS tapes! Wow!!! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 28 23:27:34 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:27:34 -0700 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050928230540.00006447@brass> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <00ec01c5c498$48181ca0$0500fea9@game> <20050928230540.00006447@brass> Message-ID: At 11:05 PM -0500 9/28/05, Scott Stevens wrote: >Right now I am trawling around the net on a Quadra 650, to see what is >possible and what's not. Some interesting surprises I am finding. The >'Low End Mac' website crashes when you try to go there on a Quadra 650 >using Netscape 4. Huh? Internet Explorer 4.01 is still available for >Mac 68k if you trawl around enough looking for it. (don't bother >looking at Microsoft) 68030 and 68040 based Mac's are still very usable with the right software for Office type apps, or kids apps. However, going surfing on the web pretty much requires modern software. >Not as interesting as the time I installed Windows NT for PowerPC on an >RS/6000 box and trawled around trying to find anything AT ALL on the net >that it would run. (You're stuck with the Internet Explorer 2.0 that >comes built into NT, which _won't_ _even_ _load_ _www.microsoft.com_ >_anymore._ The sad thing is, I have an AlphaStation 500/333 with a puny 96MB RAM, and since it has so little RAM, WinNT runs better on it than OpenVMS or Tru64 :^( Needless to say, it's sitting on a shelf, rather than being used. One of these days I hope to find an affordable 128MB or 256MB RAM kit for it. I bought it from Compaq, and it's the system that taught me to check RAM prices before choosing an older system! It was cheaper to buy a PWS 433au, than to try and get more RAM. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gilcarrick at comcast.net Wed Sep 28 23:34:15 2005 From: gilcarrick at comcast.net (Gil Carrick) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:34:15 -0500 Subject: Hobbyist VMS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200509290443.j8T4hmRM045250@keith.ezwind.net> I've got the space & the bandwidth. Two things: 1) what is a good package to download in bulk under XP? 2) The site does not load very fast. Is it on a high speed link? Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 11:16 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Hobbyist VMS > > > This is John Wisniewski's site, and I'm not sure who has > custody of > >it or how long it will be up now that he's gone, so possibly someone > >with a high-speed connection could look at mirroring the VMS stuff. > > Are you sure it's John's site? The date/time stamps on the > stuff I've looked at are about 8 1/2 months after his death. > > Personally what interests me is the collection of DECUS tapes! Wow!!! > > Zane > > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From news at computercollector.com Wed Sep 28 23:39:59 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 00:39:59 -0400 Subject: VCF 8 lodging Message-ID: <008d01c5c4af$da5bfe30$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Hi all ... Re: VCF 8 lodging ... Sellam didn't book an official hotel this year. But I just checked with the Residence Inn Palo Alto (last year's official hotel) and they want about 160 per night. Also checked with the Hampton Inn and it's 130 per night. Best yet, the Quality Inn ( http://www.qualityinnmountainview.com ) is just 100 per night during the week, and 64 on weekends! (Granted, I'm staying for five days, and using a AAA discount.) They have hot breakfast, Ethernet in every room, wireless in the business lounge, a free fitness center, and even free laundry facilities. LOL, sounds better than my apartment! I'll be in town by Wed. night if anyone wants to get together pre-VCF. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Computer Collector Newsletter: http://news.computercollector.com Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists & Museum: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 28 23:42:36 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 00:42:36 -0400 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <00ec01c5c498$48181ca0$0500fea9@game> <20050928230540.00006447@brass> Message-ID: <017101c5c4b0$3773c7b0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Stevens" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 12:05 AM Subject: Re: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( > Right now I am trawling around the net on a Quadra 650, to see what is > possible and what's not. Some interesting surprises I am finding. The > 'Low End Mac' website crashes when you try to go there on a Quadra 650 > using Netscape 4. Huh? Internet Explorer 4.01 is still available for > Mac 68k if you trawl around enough looking for it. (don't bother > looking at Microsoft) > > Not as interesting as the time I installed Windows NT for PowerPC on an > RS/6000 box and trawled around trying to find anything AT ALL on the net > that it would run. (You're stuck with the Internet Explorer 2.0 that > comes built into NT, which _won't_ _even_ _load_ _www.microsoft.com_ > _anymore._ Low End Mac went from talking about the virtues of 68K Macs one day to drooling over OSX and G4/G5 era machines the next, I rarely bother visiting the site anymore and I used to check it out every week a few years ago. Anyway the fastest 68K Mac I have is a Quadra 950 with a NewerTech 68040/50 CPU upgrade (has built in 128K cache also) and browsing the newer websites is still fairly slow (but much faster then the stock 33Mhz chip) and prone to crashing (probably a browser issue causing crashing). Even with the issues you can still get on the net for drivers, reviews, ebay, etc on that machine which is all I need it to do on the internet. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 28 23:44:45 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <00ec01c5c498$48181ca0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > While Windows 3.1 and 95 might not be "cool" these days, I predict it will > be in 10 or more years to quite a few people. I have machines dedicated to > Windows 3.1 and Win 95 now to run old apps I have (Win 3.11) or to play > retro games (Win 95). Every collector has an era of machines they are > interested in for various reasons, what is cool to you might not be cool to > me. Do people just have issues with mainstream OS's and hardware? If IBM > owned the desktop market today with OS/2 would Win 3.1 and 95 be cool to > talk about? It certainly remainds to be seen. Today, we like an old OS because we used it back in the day and now it's basically gone and considered quaint (RT11 for instance). We use others that are old because even though they are old they are still viable (i.e. PC-DOS) or are still evolving (Unix). How viable (or dead) will Win95 be in 10-20 years? And will we feel the same about it as we do with, say, PC-DOS? I doubt it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 28 23:51:30 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <010b01c5c49f$f97166d0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > Well Windows 3.1 IS obsolete on many levels, yet still not "vintage" to > people here. Not yet. Maybe in another 5-10 years. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 28 23:52:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:52:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Well Windows 3.1 IS obsolete on many levels, yet still not "vintage" to > >people here. > > More importantly, it's not very interesting, but then it never was! And thus we have the dividing line between "vintage" and just simply "obsolete" ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Sep 28 23:57:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 21:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <008501c5c4a3$486aa870$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Good point. I usually say that to be vintage, it has to be obsolete and > "unique when it was new" -- but then we'd be excluding a lot of the > follow-ups / clones of vintage stuff. But it we allow that technicality, > the two-part definition pretty much works. In many respects, "vintage" is in the eye of the beholder. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 29 00:28:28 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 01:28:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200509290530.BAA12723@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [...] a motorized USB "Aquarium" [...] > Whule I can see the point of taking power from the computer for an > interface converter, keyboard, mouse, something like that, wouldn't > it be simpler if devices like the aquarium, light, etc had their own > mains adapters? Yes, but it would tie them to the mains. > Or is a computer now regarded as simpler than a 5V PSU? Not simpler, but in a lot of cases more portable. You may not use laptops enough to think of them, but there are a lot of people who border on attached at the hip to theirs. They may not have a mains outlet handy, but they *always* have a powered USB port handy. That doesn't describe you, I assume; it doesn't describe me either. We aren't part of the target market for that thing.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 29 00:35:45 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 01:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: identifying PC Simms In-Reply-To: <200509282353000765.2C901E64@smtp.comcast.net> References: <007401c5c499$2aa8e7c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> <010b01c5c49f$f97166d0$0500fea9@game> <200509282353000765.2C901E64@smtp.comcast.net> Message-ID: <200509290541.BAA12783@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I have 16 30-pin simms left over from various past incarnations of my > PCs, and I'm trying to figure out what I've got. I no longer have a > motherboard to test them, so I have no idea what is what. > Is there any not-to-painless way to figure out what I've got? Don't bother, they're totally worthless - I'll take 'em off your hands for you. :-) Seriously, I don't have much left that uses 30-pin memory, but I do have a few - including one board my only reason for keeping is that it's got lots of ISA slots.... I don't know how to ID them, short of something that uses them. Aren't there a few pins dedicated to describing the SIMM's size? Or did that not show up until 72-pin RAM? I have an adapter board; it has four 30-pin sockets and its edge fits a 72-pin socket, and as far as I can tell it's completely passive. I've used it in SPARCstation SLC/ELC machines to test 30-pin SIMMs. It turns out the memory subsystem in those machines is bog-stupid; if you have a broken stick of memory, it still appears in physical address space, even if the ROMs don't report it to the kernel, and you can access it that way if you can convince the kernel to map those physical addresses. I found if I partially populated my adapter board I got memory in which only some of the bytes out of each (32-bit) word respond.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From trag at io.com Wed Sep 28 02:56:31 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 02:56:31 -0500 Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? In-Reply-To: <200509280615.j8S6F1iB076581@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509280615.j8S6F1iB076581@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:54:24 -0700 >From: Eric J Korpela >Subject: Re: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? >On 9/26/05, Jeff Walther wrote: >> >> If a tristate buffer is enabled by its control line, but the input to >> the buffer is at high-Z is there a typical output? > > >If there is it probably varies between parts. If you need a defined output >for tristated inputs you should pull the inputs up or down. Thanks to everyone for all the replies. It sounds like the tristate buffers don't do exactly what I would like, although I think I can make it work with more logic in front of the control line for the buffer. However, doing a bit more research, it looks like what I really need is a Transmission Gate. The important difference is that a transmission gate will pass the input regardless of its state, so L passes L, H passes H and Z passes as Z. The disadvantage is that if you have a noisy signal, the TG doesn't clean it up at all the way a TB will. The catch is that I cannot find one listed anywhere as a part that one can actually buy. Are transmission gates purchasable parts? Or are they just something they discussed in my VLSI textbook? If they are real parts, would someone please suggest a part number? Preferably an octal transmission gate (eight on a chip) divided into two sets of four with separate control lines (OE) and one OE active low and the other active high. That's how the SN74ABT241A tristate buffer is configured and it's perfect for my application, other than the little detail that a tristate buffer doesn't quite meet my needs. :-) Since someone asked, a quick synopsys of my project (for those who missed the earlier threads) is that I'm trying to build 16 MB SIMMs for the Mac IIfx (1991) using 16M X 4 parts (Samsung KM44C16100). The IIfx used unusual 64 pin SIMMs which are 8 bits wide, but keep the Data In and Data Out pins separate. This is fine, when one is using X 1 DRAM chips, as X 1 chips have separate Din and Dout (D & Q) pins. I've checked the IIfx motherboard and it actually does make use of the divided data pins to allow it to buffer writes, so I can't just tie the pins together. If I tie the pins together, the data for buffered writes will go out on the machine's data bus, when it should just stay between the buffers and the SIMMs. Using a (one per memory chip) SN74ABT241A, I can buffer the DRAM chip data pins and make them look like separate in and out pins. The SN74ABT241A is an octal tristate buffer with two OE lines. Each OE controls four of the buffers, and one is active high, the other active low. So, using WE to control both OE lines of the SN74ABT241A means that the buffers will only conduct data from the Din SIMM pins to the DRAM data pins, when WE is low, and will only conduct data from the DRAM data pins to the Dout SIMM pins when WE is high. There's no way for data from the SIMM's Din pins to feed back onto the SIMM's Dout pins. This looks beautiful until one considers what happens when the computer is trying to use the data bus for other things. If the computer leaves WE high, then the buffers will be driving some signal onto the Dout pins of the SIMMs. With normal SIMMs this would be okay, because the Dout of the DRAM chips should go to High-Z after CAS goes high at the end of the Read, even if WE is still high (according to DRAM datasheets). But in my situation, CAS goes high, the DRAM chip data pins go high-Z, and if WE stays high, then the buffer takes that high-Z input and tries to make it into some deterministic H or L output. I need that high-Z output from the DRAM chips to propagate through the buffer. Or I can shut the buffer output down after CAS goes high. So an alternative is to use an inverter and AND gate to deliver (CAS' AND WE) to the buffer control line for Data_Out. This will probably work--barring timing issues--but involves two more components (or four if I don't want to run a trace cross-board), and the associated additional layout headaches. I've actually already laid out the board (in software) with the inverter and AND gate added, but a transmission gate would be more elegant and keep the component count down. But if there aren't actual transmission gate components available, I'll just produce a set of boards with traces and positions for the AND gate and inverter, and Vias in close proximity so I can do a bit of wire wrap modification and experimentation on the first set to see what control to the tristate buffer works--or doesn't work. Jeff Walther From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 28 06:47:52 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 04:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Available for pickup. In-Reply-To: <0INH00FUMBX0JG70@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050928114752.70476.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> I'm interested, but it would be at least a couple of weeks before I could conceivably drive up there. --- Allison wrote: > I take it that I can notify the owner that these > systems are of no interest > to anyone here. I cant take them, too much and too > big. > > Allison > > > > > >Subject: Available for pickup. > > From: Allison > > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:42:52 -0400 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > > > >I do not hold these but I've been asked if I want > them. > > > >Allison > > > > > >>I sent this earlier to arrl.org, but I thought I > would also try here. These > >>are free to the first taker, but that may be the > rubbish man ! > >>Apollo 400 > >>Apollo 715s/50 > >>Apollo 715t/50 > >>(2) Apollo 715/64 > >>Apollo 400 > > > > > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From h.otten at chello.nl Wed Sep 28 12:08:12 2005 From: h.otten at chello.nl (Hans Otten) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:08:12 +0200 Subject: MSX software was Re: IBM PC hacking Message-ID: <000b01c5c44f$356725e0$0b01a8c0@aldipress.nl> > Speaking of cassette based software and whatnot, in > the absence of a floppy drive, and my understanding is > there was one available, not that I'm likely to find > it anytime soon, what are my options for running (any) > software for the Yamaha CX5M I just appropriated? It >does have a cassette port and cartridge port. Are >images of stuph available anywhere? I suppose I could >build a generic cartridge and dump images onto an >eprom or something like that. What about adapting a >drive from some other z80 based puter? There are programs to load cassete based programs from the PC soundcard to the cassette port of a MSX like your CX5M. Look for http://www.faq.msxnet.org/suffix.html#CAS http://home.kabelfoon.nl/~vincentd/ and www.funet.fi/pub/msx for msx cassette files External floppy drives for MSX are rare. But an external IDE interface is easy to construct, lookt at the Beer interface on my webpage and generic CX5M hardware information. Hans. http://www.hansotten,com From garrstim at hotmail.com Wed Sep 28 17:44:01 2005 From: garrstim at hotmail.com (garrett stimson) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 15:44:01 -0700 Subject: Tek Microlab I Message-ID: Joe, Do you still have the Tektronix Microlab I? Thanks, Barry H. From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Wed Sep 28 20:53:05 2005 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 20:53:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Apple II on Lost In-Reply-To: <20050928183134.X9790@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 28, 2005 06:33:20 PM Message-ID: <200509290153.j8T1r5C4009080@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Just a heads up, for those who haven't watched last week's or this week's episode of Lost. They made it down in to the strange bunker and it appears to be a fallout shelter of sorts. Looks to be done in a late 70's motif. There's a full Apple II setup (two disk II drives) though they never show the name. Wierdly they have some reel to reel stuff in the background. Marty From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 28 21:05:35 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 19:05:35 -0700 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200509281905350542.1BDE1917@10.0.0.252> On 9/28/2005 at 9:40 PM William Donzelli wrote: >> > I have to admit, even though I'm not a PC fan by any means, I found >the PCjr >> > fascinating. It didn't deserve the fate it got (though it *did* >deserve a >> > better price point than it was saddled with). >> >> I have several, as I've always found them fascinating: Okay, I don't get it. What's so special about a plastic box with a wimpy power supply (what was it, 32 watts?) that can't even do DMA, for the love of Mike? A friend who should've known better bought one and upgraded it, bit by bit, to include a hard disk and, I believe, an external ISA card cage. He spent more on getting that poor thing to some sort of usefulness than he would have had he purchased a regular PC/XT (much less a clone). Even so, he kept running into the "Sorry, this doesn't work on a PC Jr." situation. I think it's pretty clear that IBM intended the PC Jr. as a teaser to eventually get you to upgrade to a standard XT. Did IBM dealers offer trade-in deals? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 29 00:36:14 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 22:36:14 -0700 Subject: Air "Purifier" Warning In-Reply-To: References: <6c1ade3402914a1b82dad9113a58b09c@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <200509282236140249.1C9EF112@10.0.0.252> For those of you who get Electronic Design, check out Bob Pease's column in the current (September 29, 2005) issue. It deals with the mayhem that retail "air purifiers" can wreak on rubber hoses, drive belts, pinch rollers, seals, etc. Basically, these things are high-voltage corona generators whose "activated oxygen" output is nothing more or less than ozone. Yup, the same rubber-rotting ozone that's death to rubber. Maybe it's a good idea to steer clear of the things. Cheers, Chuck From cannings at earthlink.net Thu Sep 29 01:12:39 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:12:39 -0700 Subject: Hero-Jr Parts Needed References: <00c301c5bd90$70803d80$39406b43@66067007><000501c5bf48$33d5b040$6401a8c0@hal9000> <003f01c5bf76$a11548e0$3d406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <000401c5c4bc$cc1dfbe0$0000fea9@hal9000> I can get you a rear cover. By " pins " are you refering to the tapered / threaded ones that push through the grommets on the panels ? No help on the remote. The manuals are available from multiple sources on the net. Heathkit still sells manuals for non-Hero products. I have some duplicate cartridges, do you know which ones you need ( i.e. BASIC, Games, HPL ? ) ? regards, Steven C. ( I'm in Southern California, on the " left " coast )... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keys" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 6:07 AM Subject: Re: Hero-Jr Parts Needed > Right now I need the back cover panel, a set of the pins that hold the > covers, a remote, copy of a manual, and cartridges. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steven Canning" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 2:35 AM > Subject: Re: Hero-Jr Parts Needed > > > > Yes. What do you need ? > > > > regards, Steven C. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Keys" > > To: "cctalk at classiccmp" > > Sent: Monday, September 19, 2005 8:07 PM > > Subject: Hero-Jr Parts Needed > > > > > >> Does anyone on the list have some spare Hero-Jr parts? > >> > > > > From news at computercollector.com Thu Sep 29 01:15:04 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 02:15:04 -0400 Subject: Air "Purifier" Warning In-Reply-To: <200509282236140249.1C9EF112@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <009301c5c4bd$224f90f0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> It's here: http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/ArticleID/11084/11084.html -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 1:36 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Air "Purifier" Warning For those of you who get Electronic Design, check out Bob Pease's column in the current (September 29, 2005) issue. It deals with the mayhem that retail "air purifiers" can wreak on rubber hoses, drive belts, pinch rollers, seals, etc. Basically, these things are high-voltage corona generators whose "activated oxygen" output is nothing more or less than ozone. Yup, the same rubber-rotting ozone that's death to rubber. Maybe it's a good idea to steer clear of the things. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 29 01:40:37 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:40:37 -0700 Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? In-Reply-To: References: <200509280615.j8S6F1iB076581@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200509282340370478.1CD9E334@10.0.0.252> On 9/28/2005 at 2:56 AM Jeff Walther wrote: >If they are real parts, would someone please suggest a part number? >Preferably an octal transmission gate (eight on a chip) divided into >two sets of four with separate control lines (OE) and one OE active >low and the other active high. That's how the SN74ABT241A tristate >buffer is configured and it's perfect for my application, other than >the little detail that a tristate buffer doesn't quite meet my needs. Well, the old 4000-series CMOS has several transmission gates in the series; they call them "bilateral switches". For instance see 4066. Another type is the analogue mux/demux ICs, e.g. 4067. All probably far too slow for your applicatoin. Cheers, Chuck From tomj at wps.com Thu Sep 29 02:29:16 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 00:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050929002447.L640@fiche.wps.com> Eh. Dump the 10 year rule and cut off at 1994. I'm serious. The computer world is not a flat, linear space from 1948 to present. Somewhere after the beginning of the pc/appliance age, computers are qualitatively different. The culture and tech is different too. You could more easily lump the mini and mainframe people together than the mini and pc people. When the computer-user count became in the millions it's simply not the same. At some point post-1990 computers became near-pure commodity. It's like collecting toasters. There are intersting models, but not in the way that say 1960s or even 1970s are -- pretty much ANY computer from the 70s and even 80s is "interesting". Pretty much anything post-MSDOS is deadly dull -- with exceptions of course. Consistency is for machinery. On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:26:45 -0700 (PDT) > From: Fred Cisin > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( > > Yet Another Ten Year Rule Discussion) > On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: >> Step careful, now. By that criterion, it's time for long technical >> threads about getting obscure graphics adapters to work under Windows >> 3.1. > > It's WAY worse than that. Under the simplistic 10 year rule, Windoze 95 > is now "ON-TOPIC"! > > Under the "coolness" principle, it might NEVER be on-topic. > > > OB_OT: Yesterday, I saw a Packard Bell running 95. I didn't know that > they would last this long. > From tomj at wps.com Thu Sep 29 02:30:32 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 00:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050928192112.U9790@shell.lmi.net> References: <008301c5c49b$6908da50$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> <20050928192112.U9790@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050929003003.K640@fiche.wps.com> >> No, I don't mean in the sense of whether we like it or not, I mean whether >> the world still uses the same basic design. So whether we like Windows or >> not, there's the reality of Microsoft's market share. > > OK. not "obsolete" but "discontinued" ad nauseum Looking for consistency here is a fool's errand. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 29 02:25:41 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 03:25:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? In-Reply-To: References: <200509280615.j8S6F1iB076581@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200509290745.DAA13944@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > However, doing a bit more research, it looks like what I really need > is a Transmission Gate. The important difference is that a > transmission gate will pass the input regardless of its state, so L > passes L, H passes H and Z passes as Z. Beware that for such a device, "input" and "output" are ill-defined; what they really do is connect two pins together, without regard for which is driving and which is being driven - as must be, if it is to pass Z "correctly". This may, of course, be no problem for you, but it should be kept in mind when designing with them. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Sep 29 03:52:29 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:52:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hobbyist VMS In-Reply-To: <6c1ade3402914a1b82dad9113a58b09c@valleyimplants.com> References: <6c1ade3402914a1b82dad9113a58b09c@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <1343.135.196.233.27.1127983949.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Thu, September 29, 2005 4:07 am, compoobah at valleyimplants.com said: > This is John Wisniewski's site, and I'm not sure who has custody of it or > how long it will be up now that he's gone, so possibly someone with a > high-speed connection could look at mirroring the VMS stuff. Gone as in no longer at HP or gone as in this mortal coil? If I had a high speed connection I'd mirror it but I think the man for the task is Fred van K if he's still about? -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Sep 29 04:02:39 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 10:02:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hobbyist VMS In-Reply-To: <200509290443.j8T4hmRM045250@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200509290443.j8T4hmRM045250@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1366.135.196.233.27.1127984559.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Thu, September 29, 2005 5:34 am, Gil Carrick said: > I've got the space & the bandwidth. Two things: 1) what is a good package > to > download in bulk under XP? 2) The site does not load very fast. Is it on a > high speed link? Several spring to mind but probably the most well known one is WGET, though some sites actively block it because it can be such a bandwidth hog. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 29 06:39:17 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 07:39:17 -0400 Subject: Available for pickup. Message-ID: <0INK00D73TMQQ0J0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> I dont have these and the person that has them was talking dump real soon. > >Subject: Re: Available for pickup. > From: Chris M > Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 04:47:52 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >I'm interested, but it would be at least a couple of >weeks before I could conceivably drive up there. > >--- Allison wrote: > >> I take it that I can notify the owner that these >> systems are of no interest >> to anyone here. I cant take them, too much and too >> big. >> >> Allison >> >> >> > >> >Subject: Available for pickup. >> > From: Allison >> > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 18:42:52 -0400 >> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> > >> > >> >I do not hold these but I've been asked if I want >> them. >> > >> >Allison >> > >> > >> >>I sent this earlier to arrl.org, but I thought I >> would also try here. These >> >>are free to the first taker, but that may be the >> rubbish man ! >> >>Apollo 400 >> >>Apollo 715s/50 >> >>Apollo 715t/50 >> >>(2) Apollo 715/64 >> >>Apollo 400 >> > >> > >> >> > > > > >__________________________________ >Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 >http://mail.yahoo.com From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 29 07:19:47 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 08:19:47 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <433BDBE3.3000508@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: >>My Kyocera 7135 has all the features you listed, > > Never heard of it. > > [Googles] > > No it bloody well doesn't. > > The Psion 5/5mx & Ericsson MC218 weren't phones, they were PDAs. The > best PDA made so far. The Kyocera is a PDA and a phone. It runs PalmOS. > Your phone doesn't have a keyboard at all; it has a key*pad*. The > Psion has a three-quarter size full-travel QWERTY keyboard upon which > it's possible to touchtype. No, my palmtop has a *keyboard*. It's external, but it has one. And it's full size with full travel and tactile feedback. Folds out. Folds down to the same size as the palmtop. > Your phone has a stamp-sized screen, albeit in colour. But who /needs/ > colour? The Psion has a 640x240, half-VGA mono LCD. Kinda green by > today's standards but excellent for 1998. The screen is small, but it's nowhere near "stamp-sized". It's 160x160 3" or thereabouts. I can read it at arm's length without any difficulty. > A proper, smooth, very fast, well-integrated multitasking OS with > basic memory protection. This, it doesn't have. Doesn't really have memory protection. > Accepts up to a gig of storage on CF. I have *2GB* in it right now. SD card. > Doesn't sync well to a PC, but you never needed to. The Psion /was/ > your PIM. You could both file-transfer and simply cut&paste between > Psion and Windows. Multitasked with all PC apps and OSs, and Mac and > Linux too. I sync mine to a PC and a Mac. Works fine on both. Plus mine has an MP3 player with decent sound. > They were wonderful little machines. Never really took off in the US, > like so much non-US tech. But then, I wondered around Colorado with my > Newton 2100 in '99 or so and all the Murricans were amazed by my cool > foreign toy. :?( Calm down. I never said I didn't like EPOC. I do. I'm just saying my Palm is quite featureful. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 29 07:22:14 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 08:22:14 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <433BDC76.7090600@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > 40h use? I flat-out don't believe you. That's /use/ - not standby > time, which is many *months*. We're talking 2 *days* of *continuous* > operation. And as far as this one, as long as I don't talk on the phone part and don't use the internet uplink, I sometimes get *48* hours *real use*. It has a Li-Ion battery the size of some phones. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 29 07:22:54 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 08:22:54 -0400 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <433BDC9E.3060008@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >>Vintage is very simple: it must be architecturally obsolete. Windows 95 >>isn't. > > > Neither is the S/360 then. You have a point there. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 29 07:39:54 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 08:39:54 -0400 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <20050929002447.L640@fiche.wps.com> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <20050929002447.L640@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <433BE09A.1030609@gmail.com> Tom Jennings wrote: > Eh. Dump the 10 year rule and cut off at 1994. > > I'm serious. The computer world is not a flat, linear space from > 1948 to present. Somewhere after the beginning of the > pc/appliance age, computers are qualitatively different. > > The culture and tech is different too. You could more easily lump > the mini and mainframe people together than the mini and pc > people. When the computer-user count became in the millions it's > simply not the same. > > At some point post-1990 computers became near-pure commodity. It's > like collecting toasters. There are intersting models, but not in > the way that say 1960s or even 1970s are -- pretty much ANY > computer from the 70s and even 80s is "interesting". Pretty much > anything post-MSDOS is deadly dull -- with exceptions of course. > > Consistency is for machinery. My ES/9021 has a manufacture date sometime after 1990, I believe. I think that still qualifies as "interesting enough". Peace... Sridhar From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Sep 29 09:30:18 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 07:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? In-Reply-To: References: <200509280615.j8S6F1iB076581@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Jeff Walther wrote: >> Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 07:54:24 -0700 >> From: Eric J Korpela >> Subject: Re: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? > >> On 9/26/05, Jeff Walther wrote: >>> >>> If a tristate buffer is enabled by its control line, but the input to >>> the buffer is at high-Z is there a typical output? >> >> >> If there is it probably varies between parts. If you need a defined output >> for tristated inputs you should pull the inputs up or down. > > Thanks to everyone for all the replies. > > It sounds like the tristate buffers don't do exactly what I would like, > although I think I can make it work with more logic in front of the control > line for the buffer. > > However, doing a bit more research, it looks like what I really need is a > Transmission Gate. The important difference is that a transmission gate > will pass the input regardless of its state, so L passes L, H passes H and Z > passes as Z. The disadvantage is that if you have a noisy signal, the TG > doesn't clean it up at all the way a TB will. > > The catch is that I cannot find one listed anywhere as a part that one can > actually buy. Are transmission gates purchasable parts? Or are they just > something they discussed in my VLSI textbook? Google for something called a quick-switch, It is basically a single NMOS transistor transmission gate. Pericom ( and others) make them. Peter Wallace From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 29 09:46:38 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 10:46:38 -0400 Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? References: <200509280615.j8S6F1iB076581@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <17211.65102.84000.886895@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Walther writes: Jeff> However, doing a bit more research, it looks like what I really Jeff> need is a Transmission Gate. The important difference is that Jeff> a transmission gate will pass the input regardless of its Jeff> state, so L passes L, H passes H and Z passes as Z. The Jeff> disadvantage is that if you have a noisy signal, the TG doesn't Jeff> clean it up at all the way a TB will. Jeff> The catch is that I cannot find one listed anywhere as a part Jeff> that one can actually buy. Are transmission gates purchasable Jeff> parts? Or are they just something they discussed in my VLSI Jeff> textbook? I have never heard that term, but what you describe is a common device. One term is "bilateral switch; you can find one in 4000 series logic. There is also the brand name "QuickSwitch", the same thing but substantially higher speed ratings. Basically, these are just FET switches. You can think of a FET as a voltage controlled resistor, and in these switches input and output are pretty much interchangeable (that's why it's called "bilateral"). You can make your own out of discrete FETs if you prefer, but the packaged ones should serve. You might check the data sheet to see if the 4000 series switch is fast enough; it may well be, and it should be readily available. paul From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 29 09:49:15 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:49:15 -0500 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050929094844.047f21e8@mail> At 08:38 PM 9/28/2005, William Donzelli wrote: >Windows Muntzing. I hadn't heard the term, but it's an interesting story: http://www.national.com/rap/Story/0,1562,17,00.html - John From dittman at dittman.net Thu Sep 29 10:00:47 2005 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 10:00:47 -0500 Subject: Hobbyist VMS In-Reply-To: <200509290443.j8T4hmRM045250@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200509290443.j8T4hmRM045250@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <433C019F.8040509@dittman.net> Gil Carrick wrote: > I've got the space & the bandwidth. Two things: 1) what is a good package to > download in bulk under XP? 2) The site does not load very fast. Is it on a > high speed link? If you try to download in bulk you are likely to find the system gone in short order. I know the guy that is currently maintaining the system. -- Eric Dittman dittman at dittman.net From dittman at dittman.net Thu Sep 29 10:02:05 2005 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 10:02:05 -0500 Subject: Hobbyist VMS In-Reply-To: <1343.135.196.233.27.1127983949.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <6c1ade3402914a1b82dad9113a58b09c@valleyimplants.com> <1343.135.196.233.27.1127983949.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <433C01ED.7070303@dittman.net> Witchy wrote: > On Thu, September 29, 2005 4:07 am, compoobah at valleyimplants.com said: > > >> This is John Wisniewski's site, and I'm not sure who has custody of it or >>how long it will be up now that he's gone, so possibly someone with a >>high-speed connection could look at mirroring the VMS stuff. > > > Gone as in no longer at HP or gone as in this mortal coil? If I had a high > speed connection I'd mirror it but I think the man for the task is Fred > van K if he's still about? John Wisniewski passed away: http://wiz.openvms.org/ -- Eric Dittman dittman at dittman.net From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Sep 29 10:13:12 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:13:12 -0400 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050929002447.L640@fiche.wps.com> References: <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050929102720.03a99b68@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tom Jennings may have mentioned these words: >Eh. Dump the 10 year rule and cut off at 1994. Sure, but then my Amiga wouldn't be classic anymore. It was built in '98. Oh, wait, then it still isn't, even *with* the 10-year rule. :-/ >When the computer-user count became in the millions it's >simply not the same. OK, then that would rule out Commodore 64 (several million sold) the Tandy Model 100's (several million sold) and even Ataris & Tandy CoCos. We were *well into* millions of users by '84, not '94. >pretty much ANY >computer from the 70s and even 80s is "interesting". But what about the 90's? Seriously - let's look at this: When I joined the list, CoCo 3s weren't technically ontopic yet, as they'd been sold until '92. (Disco'ed in '91, I think I saw one (still in a RS store) in '93. When I joined the list, Macintoshes *still couldn't* multitask; 8-bitters could do that since '81-82 (whenever OS-9 was released). Yet lots of people are still waxing poetic about 68K Macs - I found them udderly[1] pitiful... much less useful for the power available than my NT4 workstation. Granted, I wasn't doing photo editing or typesetting; just the basics. [[ dons flameproof knickers... I'm not saying that Macs sucked, but I was rather disheartened when I finally had access to a Mac, that every other sentence I said started with "whaddya mean it can't..." What it could do, it did very well; but as a general-purpose computing platform, the OS was rather lacking. ]] > Pretty much >anything post-MSDOS is deadly dull -- with exceptions of course. And *who* gets to choose which exceptions are acceptable? That's the "slippery slope" we must climb, and why these "ten-year-rule" arguments come up every 6 months or so... >Consistency is for machinery. And yet, it's the human inconsistency that keeps us rehashing the subject ad nauseum... :-/ Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] Not a typo - I rather thought they were "suckin' hind teat" if you catch my drift. ;-) After using OS-9 Level 2, with multiple hardware & software windows, and being able to recalculate a spreadsheet, spellcheck a document and play Rogue (albeit somewhat slowly) at the same time - I really missed that ability when I started working with MacOS. (And yes, to be fair - MS-DOS & it's ilk as well.) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 29 10:36:06 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:36:06 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( Message-ID: <0INL007MB4LD7BM0@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PalmOS no more? :( > From: John Foust > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:49:15 -0500 > To: > >At 08:38 PM 9/28/2005, William Donzelli wrote: >>Windows Muntzing. > >I hadn't heard the term, but it's an interesting story: > >http://www.national.com/rap/Story/0,1562,17,00.html I've been doing this to winders since dos and V3.1 on an XT clone with a small hard disk. Before that with RT-11 and VAX/VMS 5.x. Seriously, if you take say W95b and pare out all the junk it's both small and surprizingly robust, this appied especially to MS IE and OE. How small? For W95 with Ip networking it was under 29mb of on disk stuff! I may add that putting Office97 on a W95b/98 system was by far the fastest way to bloat it and destabilize it. The real trick is not pruning it out but changing the install scripts to not put all that cruft in! Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 29 10:42:58 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 08:42:58 -0700 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050929002447.L640@fiche.wps.com> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <20050929002447.L640@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: >Eh. Dump the 10 year rule and cut off at 1994. > >I'm serious. The computer world is not a flat, linear space from >1948 to present. Somewhere after the beginning of the >pc/appliance age, computers are qualitatively different. > >The culture and tech is different too. You could more easily lump >the mini and mainframe people together than the mini and pc >people. When the computer-user count became in the millions it's >simply not the same. > >At some point post-1990 computers became near-pure commodity. It's >like collecting toasters. There are intersting models, but not in >the way that say 1960s or even 1970s are -- pretty much ANY >computer from the 70s and even 80s is "interesting". Pretty much >anything post-MSDOS is deadly dull -- with exceptions of course. > >Consistency is for machinery. The problem with dumping the 10 year rule, and putting the cut off at 1994 is that you miss out on some really cool, and classic hardware. Systems that even if they don't meet the 10 year rule fall into the classic category in my mind would be the BeBox (and BeOS itself), any SGI IRIX Workstation, any Alpha capable of running VMS, and any UltraSparc based Sun box. I'd also include any Amiga HW, including the new Mini-ITX boards, and the MorphOS boxes. I'm also inclined to include specific pieces of Apple HW, such as the original G4's running Mac OS 8.6 (yes, they exist) or the original G5 duals. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 29 10:53:36 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:53:36 -0600 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050929102720.03a99b68@mail.30below.com> References: <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050929102720.03a99b68@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <433C0E00.8030009@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > When I joined the list, CoCo 3s weren't technically ontopic yet, as > they'd been sold until '92. (Disco'ed in '91, I think I saw one (still > in a RS store) in '93. > I think you can buy CoCo 3's still. What I want is a REAL OS/9 machine but I never could afford more than a Coco. NOW a SWTP 6809 box with a nice HD would almost be on topic. Also OS/9 (6809) had 3 nice programing languages too - C, Pascal and Basic 09? Too bad 'games' machines are the way they marketed home computers back then. Ben. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 29 10:59:51 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 08:59:51 -0700 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050929102720.03a99b68@mail.30below.com> References: <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050929102720.03a99b68@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: At 11:13 AM -0400 9/29/05, Roger Merchberger wrote: >Rumor has it that Tom Jennings may have mentioned these words: >>Eh. Dump the 10 year rule and cut off at 1994. > >Sure, but then my Amiga wouldn't be classic anymore. It was built in >'98. Oh, wait, then it still isn't, even *with* the 10-year rule. :-/ It's an Amiga 4000, and as such I suspect it is within the 10-year rule, though it does make for an interesting question. Realistically, I don't think anyone will object to you talking about it here. Besides, even though it was "built" in '98, when were the boards manufactured? I thought they were using NOS boards that Commodore made. >But what about the 90's? > >Seriously - let's look at this: > >When I joined the list, CoCo 3s weren't technically ontopic yet, as >they'd been sold until '92. (Disco'ed in '91, I think I saw one >(still in a RS store) in '93. > >When I joined the list, Macintoshes *still couldn't* multitask; >8-bitters could do that since '81-82 (whenever OS-9 was released). >Yet lots of people are still waxing poetic about 68K Macs - I found >them udderly[1] pitiful... much less useful for the power available >than my NT4 workstation. Granted, I wasn't doing photo editing or >typesetting; just the basics. When you joined the list, Mac's *COULD* multitask (I can't remember if it would have been System 7.5, 7.6, or 8.0), they simply did cooperative multitasking, rather than preemptive multitasking. Furthermore, a 68k Mac was outdated when you joined this list, and Apple was on either it's 2nd or 3rd model of PowerMac. >[[ dons flameproof knickers... I'm not saying that Macs sucked, but >I was rather disheartened when I finally had access to a Mac, that >every other sentence I said started with "whaddya mean it can't..." >What it could do, it did very well; but as a general-purpose >computing platform, the OS was rather lacking. ]] Actually that "lacking" was part of it's beauty, I was always more productive on a classic Mac because of that "lacking". As you might guess, I'm typing this on a Mac (a dual 2Ghz G5 running Mac OS X 10.3.9 to be exact), and I for one long for the days of Mac OS 9. Unfortunately all the new software requires Mac OS X, the only other advantage for me is that it has Unix underneath, so I no longer need both a Mac and a Unix box running at the same time. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Thu Sep 29 11:04:52 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:04:52 +0200 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> Message-ID: <433C2CC4.6370.D4A51CB2@localhost> Am 28 Sep 2005 18:26 meinte Fred Cisin: > Yet Another Ten Year Rule Discussion) > On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > Step careful, now. By that criterion, it's time for long technical > > threads about getting obscure graphics adapters to work under Windows > > 3.1. > It's WAY worse than that. Under the simplistic 10 year rule, Windoze 95 > is now "ON-TOPIC"! Which is a good thing, 'cause finaly some cool unique machines that came with 95 can be on topic. > Under the "coolness" principle, it might NEVER be on-topic. Wait a few years. right now, XP still looks tway to much like a spoofed up 95. But when it changes it startes looking old fashioned - like Win 2.x looked orld after 3.1 and 3.x looks today. Also, there are still interesting developments in the PC area, that needs to be documented to make a point thst there was more than the Dell/Taiwan class of computers. The argument, that there was nothing interesting after '90 would for example exclude such intereting machines as the Acorn where. After all, ir comes down as with cars. For a simple perspective, there was no real development and no noteworthy car after 1970, so better just scrap everything made thereafter. Right? Well, it would include to scrap little GEMs like the Dutch Daf cars, a quite interesting development, or even today Smart cars. There has been no real invention on cars since the 1930s. Everything today has been there already before 1930. From electric and hybrid to turbo charged (until short before WW1, electric cas have been the fastest), from manual, electric and semimanual to atomatic transmission, from convertible to station, all already done back then, so no no need to collect any car after 1930. Right? Just get on your beat armor when tryin to tell this to a Ford Edsel owner... Well, ther is a difference to be seen: in vintage cars they have room for different qualifications, and maybe we get there also in a few years. As for example, over here, if a car gets older than 20 years, you may apply for a 'historic' licence plate, giving a tax break, since, while this car might still offer some value and usability in daily life, it's assumed that driving a 20 year old car might realy need dedication :) Now, while this 20 year rule is already fine to draw a first line between 'actual' cars an vintage, most of us will agree that a 1984 Rabbit (VW Golf) isn't exactly a car anyone would considere special. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't have any problem with using it on a stock car race ... or just sell it as scrap metal. Realy, not worth any tear ... but, going 20 years before that, a 1965 VW Beatle does already make me think. After all, the bug was as omnipresent as the Golf later on, and as anoying, and I remember that we crashed more than one during the 1980s, just for the fun of it. But it is, no doubt, a classic car by now. So, coming back to my hope about the future, I think we will eventualy come to similar regulations, where the 10 year rule is just the basic front line that keeps all non cool modern stuff out of the picture, while other lienes will be drawn to separate them even further. I think, like with cars, these lines may be drawn to certain fixed dates, like pre 1975, 1975-1980, 1980-1993 and so on... Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 29 11:03:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Request to mailing list cctech rejected (fwd) Message-ID: Is anyone else getting these? I'm not posting to CCTECH. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 01:14:55 -0500 From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org To: vcf at siconic.com Subject: Request to mailing list cctech rejected Your request to the cctech mailing list Posting of your message titled "Re: PalmOS no more? :(" has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the following reason for rejecting your request: "Non-members are not allowed to post messages to this list." Any questions or comments should be directed to the list administrator at: cctech-owner at classiccmp.org From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Sep 29 11:13:33 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:13:33 -0400 (edt) Subject: Request to mailing list cctech rejected (fwd) In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Sep 29, 05 09:03:09 am Message-ID: <200509291613.MAA26928@wordstock.com> And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake: > > > Is anyone else getting these? I'm not posting to CCTECH. > I have received this twice... But at least you got a reason for your rejection - I only got "No reason". Cheers, Bryan > > Your request to the cctech mailing list > > Posting of your message titled "Re: PalmOS no more? :(" > > has been rejected by the list moderator. The moderator gave the > following reason for rejecting your request: > > "Non-members are not allowed to post messages to this list." From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 29 11:15:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050929002447.L640@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > Eh. Dump the 10 year rule and cut off at 1994. > > I'm serious. The computer world is not a flat, linear space from > 1948 to present. Somewhere after the beginning of the > pc/appliance age, computers are qualitatively different. Yeah, but at some point computers from the post-1994 period will be interesting, or in the very least, certain ones. Most everything from Apple post iMac (including the iMac itself) is interesting already. Even boring as shit 286 clones from the mid-1980s are starting to look interesting to me, just because they aren't around anymore, and some designs were actually quite innovative, stuffing a lot of different things onto the motherboard long before I thought this all-in-one integration was taking place, including SCSI controllers even. > At some point post-1990 computers became near-pure commodity. It's > like collecting toasters. Yes, people collect those too: http://www.joeyharrison.com/2004/10/toaster-collector-association-held-its.htm They even have an association by gawd. Why, I'd gather they're even more organized than those nerds we hear about who collect old computers. > Consistency is for machinery. And for well prepared oatmeal, which this bowl I am currently eating is not. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 29 11:23:50 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:23:50 -0400 Subject: Request to mailing list cctech rejected (fwd) References: Message-ID: <17212.5398.781350.47157@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> Is anyone else getting these? I'm not posting to CCTECH. Yes, I got a couple. I think it comes from doing a "reply all" to posts that appear on cctalk but were originally posted to cctech. (cctalk gets all the cctech posts, plus others.) paul From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Sep 29 11:26:40 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:26:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hobbyist VMS In-Reply-To: <433C01ED.7070303@dittman.net> References: <6c1ade3402914a1b82dad9113a58b09c@valleyimplants.com> <1343.135.196.233.27.1127983949.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <433C01ED.7070303@dittman.net> Message-ID: <4616.135.196.233.27.1128011200.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Thu, September 29, 2005 4:02 pm, Eric Dittman said: >> Gone as in no longer at HP or gone as in this mortal coil? If I had a >> high >> speed connection I'd mirror it but I think the man for the task is Fred >> van K if he's still about? > > John Wisniewski passed away: That must've been a big loss to the community, and I notice the message originator was the oft-missed Terry Shannon :o| -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From news at computercollector.com Thu Sep 29 11:28:03 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:28:03 -0400 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002801c5c512$c5434310$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> You're saying the Apple G4/G5 are vintage? Get real... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 11:43 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( >Eh. Dump the 10 year rule and cut off at 1994. > >I'm serious. The computer world is not a flat, linear space from >1948 to present. Somewhere after the beginning of the pc/appliance >age, computers are qualitatively different. > >The culture and tech is different too. You could more easily lump the >mini and mainframe people together than the mini and pc people. When >the computer-user count became in the millions it's simply not the >same. > >At some point post-1990 computers became near-pure commodity. It's like >collecting toasters. There are intersting models, but not in the way >that say 1960s or even 1970s are -- pretty much ANY computer from the >70s and even 80s is "interesting". Pretty much anything post-MSDOS is >deadly dull -- with exceptions of course. > >Consistency is for machinery. The problem with dumping the 10 year rule, and putting the cut off at 1994 is that you miss out on some really cool, and classic hardware. Systems that even if they don't meet the 10 year rule fall into the classic category in my mind would be the BeBox (and BeOS itself), any SGI IRIX Workstation, any Alpha capable of running VMS, and any UltraSparc based Sun box. I'd also include any Amiga HW, including the new Mini-ITX boards, and the MorphOS boxes. I'm also inclined to include specific pieces of Apple HW, such as the original G4's running Mac OS 8.6 (yes, they exist) or the original G5 duals. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 29 11:33:32 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PCjr (Was Re: IBM PC hacking) Message-ID: <200509291633.JAA05390@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Michael B. Brutman" > > >I don't think that the lack of a DMA controller on the PCjr really >slowed it down any. The old double density drives have a data rate of >250,000 bps. If the data is presented one byte at a time, that is just >31250 bytes per second. Even with multiple I/O clock cycles per byte to >get it to the processor and then to memory, a 4.77Mhz processor can keep >up with that easily. > >Where the lack of DMA would hurt you is on a much faster interface, such >as a hard disk. Then you wouldn't have any cycles to spare, the the >difference would show up. Hi I don't think the early PC's used DMA for the hard disk. The HD controllers usually had sector or track buffers. The program would wait until the buffer was full and then just move it by software to memory. The floppies needed DMA because the controllers didn't buffer more than one byte. The processor would have had to dedicate it self to the one task without interrupts. Dwight From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 29 11:39:39 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:39:39 -0400 Subject: Request to mailing list cctech rejected (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <433C18CB.5000500@gmail.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Is anyone else getting these? I'm not posting to CCTECH. > I get them all the time. I think it might be because I reply to all and one of the destinations is cctech at classiccmp.org. Peace... Sridhar From dittman at dittman.net Thu Sep 29 12:11:27 2005 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:11:27 -0500 Subject: Hobbyist VMS In-Reply-To: <4616.135.196.233.27.1128011200.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <6c1ade3402914a1b82dad9113a58b09c@valleyimplants.com> <1343.135.196.233.27.1127983949.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <433C01ED.7070303@dittman.net> <4616.135.196.233.27.1128011200.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <433C203F.5050509@dittman.net> Witchy wrote: > On Thu, September 29, 2005 4:02 pm, Eric Dittman said: > > >>>Gone as in no longer at HP or gone as in this mortal coil? If I had a >>>high >>>speed connection I'd mirror it but I think the man for the task is Fred >>>van K if he's still about? >> >>John Wisniewski passed away: > > > That must've been a big loss to the community, and I notice the message > originator was the oft-missed Terry Shannon :o| It was. -- Eric Dittman dittman at dittman.net From allain at panix.com Thu Sep 29 12:22:15 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 13:22:15 -0400 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( References: Message-ID: <00a201c5c51a$56d2bc00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Long, so won't burden you with this again for quite some time into the future. I come to this list looking for cleverness, and find it sometimes, and within that subset of messages sometimes find something great to try. It's just like any subscription service, sometimes worthless, sometimes repetitive, and what's left could be called worth the effort to look (and don't forget, to add to... try to add to the wisdom of this service, not the worthlessness of it). I think something clever can be done with just about anything, like just a piece of paper can become so much Oragami. And I expect that cleverness here, on topic cleverness too BTW. Problem 1: the flood Two problems that float to the top is that after 1981 (PC) and 1991 (Win) computers just kept getting more poopular and selling more, so we're saddled with a humongous list of things to talk about (and collect). Wait about 8 years and any neat computer is free it seems (recent free additions here: HP 2CPU Netserver/native SCSI2; Mac G4 tower, loaded; numerous 1998 laptops etc.), so if you have any interest, you get a Tsunami. Problem 2: dumbing down Another problem is that post 1991 Microsoft mainly gave up on focussing on neat tech and went to things that would grab the Non tech's attention... just basic mass marketing. I could post a list 80 KB llist of personal MS disappointments, but won't. This shift created the Linux market. This shift also creates opportunities for others to add the neatness that MS likes to ignore. Bottomline for me on this issue: MS turned it's back on me, the tech market, it's convenient to ignore them back, but besides the BS their software had to in the least exist and can be made clever. We've seen some dumb questions on the list but for 99% of the posters one or two intercessions and they get it afterwards. The ten year rule is pretty good, but doesn't fight the flood problem, for that we got a lazy democracy. Just try to stay smart and you won't get flamed out. John A. ClassicQuote "Television is called a medium because it is neither rare nor well done." the clever Ernie Kovacs, probably around 1950 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 29 12:37:48 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:37:48 -0500 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <00a201c5c51a$56d2bc00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <00a201c5c51a$56d2bc00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050929123227.04a779e8@mail> At 12:22 PM 9/29/2005, John Allain wrote: >Wait about 8 years and any neat computer is free it seems (recent free >additions here: HP 2CPU Netserver/native SCSI2; Mac G4 tower, loaded; >numerous 1998 laptops etc.), so if you have any interest, you get a Tsunami. It's an interesting flip side to the popular instantiations of Moore's Law, no? When the price of any used computer undergoes five halvings, it's sub-$100 soon enough no matter what the starting price, particularly if it's selling on the surplus market where the price might be based on weight alone. - John From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 29 13:03:10 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050929123227.04a779e8@mail> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, John Foust wrote: > At 12:22 PM 9/29/2005, John Allain wrote: > >Wait about 8 years and any neat computer is free it seems (recent free > >additions here: HP 2CPU Netserver/native SCSI2; Mac G4 tower, loaded; > >numerous 1998 laptops etc.), so if you have any interest, you get a Tsunami. > > It's an interesting flip side to the popular instantiations of > Moore's Law, no? When the price of any used computer undergoes > five halvings, it's sub-$100 soon enough no matter what the > starting price, particularly if it's selling on the surplus market > where the price might be based on weight alone. What's more interesting (and relevant for us) is the cusp at which it becomes "collectable" and therefore "desirable" and henceforth "valuable" once more (and if not, why not?) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Thu Sep 29 13:17:12 2005 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:17:12 +0100 Subject: Request to mailing list cctech rejected (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1128017832.17478.2.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Thu, 2005-09-29 at 09:03 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Is anyone else getting these? I'm not posting to CCTECH. It will be a hiccup on the part of an assistant moderator - all the postings to cctalk are vetted before being passed to cctech, and if you select 'reject' rather than 'discard' I guess this is what happens. In other words, it wasn't deemed on-topic enough for cctech, but you should not have received an explicit rejection. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Thu Sep 29 09:20:46 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 10:20:46 -0400 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.2.5.4.2.20050929101159.03327de8@boff-net.dhs.org> Unfortunately, Packard Bells were still sold in France and sometimes exported to other countries as late as 2002. I worked on one with Windows 2000 on it and it was a P.O.S. another had Windows Me as standard and no support for other OS'es because of the insistence to still use proprietary parts. Both clients were pissed because the machines got hosed (drive failures, power supply failures, a chip on a motherboard went, etc.) while under warranty and it was almost impossible to get P.B. on the phone (let alone in English), to RMA the systems back to France or Mexico for repairs (plus shipping costs via customer). They went out and bought H.P. computers for 1/4 the price and about the same equipment in them. Neither of them have failed yet. It seems P.B.'s had semi-decent hardware in them the older you get. They closer to now, the shittier the equipment and more chances you just gave them $2,000.00 US for nothing. -John Boffemmyer IV PS: P.B. graphics adapters are far from obscure. They used quite common Trident, S3 and Cirrus Logic graphics adapters, often built into the motherboards. Reference drivers from various sources (including S3, Trident, Cirrus Logic) worked every time (for most of the Windblows OS'es - newer versions of 2k, XP, etc, often already had driver support for them). The newer P.B.'s that I last saw used el cheapo no-name brand nVidia TNT2 vanta's and m64's. Those have reference drivers right on the nVidia web site for just about all the Winblows OS'es and even Linux. At 09:26 PM 9/28/2005, you wrote: >Yet Another Ten Year Rule Discussion) >On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > Step careful, now. By that criterion, it's time for long technical > > threads about getting obscure graphics adapters to work under Windows > > 3.1. > >It's WAY worse than that. Under the simplistic 10 year rule, Windoze 95 >is now "ON-TOPIC"! > >Under the "coolness" principle, it might NEVER be on-topic. > > >OB_OT: Yesterday, I saw a Packard Bell running 95. I didn't know that >they would last this long. > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.8/113 - Release Date: 9/27/2005 > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.8/113 - Release Date: 9/27/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.8/113 - Release Date: 9/27/2005 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 29 09:44:44 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 07:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <200509281905350542.1BDE1917@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20050929144445.7103.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> the eccentricity of some of these early machines is what makes them so interesting. At least a Peanut could run some PC software, alot actually! Not so on the Tandy 2000...or TI PC...or NEC APC/III...or Victor 9000...or DEC Rainbow... Ok ok, some of them had "compatibility options". My NEC APC III has that. Haven't played with it much. I reckon it'll be just shy of dissappointing. I reckon most people don't collect this stuph becuase they can't find anything better to work on LOL LOL. --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9/28/2005 at 9:40 PM William Donzelli wrote: > > >> > I have to admit, even though I'm not a PC fan > by any means, I found > >the PCjr > >> > fascinating. It didn't deserve the fate it got > (though it *did* > >deserve a > >> > better price point than it was saddled with). > >> > >> I have several, as I've always found them > fascinating: > > Okay, I don't get it. What's so special about a > plastic box with a wimpy power supply (what was it, > 32 watts?) that can't even do DMA, for the love of > Mike? A friend who should've known better bought > one and upgraded it, bit by bit, to include a hard > disk and, I believe, an external ISA card cage. He > spent more on getting that poor thing to some sort > of usefulness than he would have had he purchased a > regular PC/XT (much less a clone). Even so, he kept > running into the "Sorry, this doesn't work on a PC > Jr." situation. > > I think it's pretty clear that IBM intended the PC > Jr. as a teaser to eventually get you to upgrade to > a standard XT. Did IBM dealers offer trade-in > deals? > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 29 10:03:50 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 08:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <433A7720.9010805@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050929150350.10878.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> >I am trying to find a reason to keep my PCjr, so it >comes down to this - >were there any mainframe communications developed for >the thing? >Hey, even the 5100 could talk to an S/3. I'm sure I'll wind up with egg on my face here, but I can't imagine the setting in which a Peanut is communicating with a mainframe. Maybe a former CEO of Planter's had one on his desk? I know, I shouldn't quit my day job. A friend is looking for some weird networking option/cart for his Jr. Anybody know of one? __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 29 10:05:45 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 08:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: offlist Re: Looking for: BCC180 schematics and.. In-Reply-To: <0INJ00K67APN9Q75@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050929150545.11520.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> That sounds like something that was published in Byte years ago. As a matter of fact I'm pretty positive. Mostly definate. 99% anyway. Provided I have it, would that solve your problem? --- Allison wrote: > I'm looking for schematics for MicroMint BCC180 > rev1. > > Also Imagewise V2.0 reciever (ca1987) the earlier > with DB25 > connector. Any docs or schematic would help. > > Allison > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Thu Sep 29 10:29:22 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:29:22 -0400 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050929102720.03a99b68@mail.30below.com> References: <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050929102720.03a99b68@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.4.2.20050929112453.0331ea48@boff-net.dhs.org> Thank you, finally. Someone allowed to point that out without getting the post pulled... A number of technologies are unique or interesting to some people, even if others want to be pompous and claim because it doesn't meet an arbitrary rule they set, it isn't good enough to be classic, etc. I still use MCA based IBM PS/2's and decommissioned Bay Networks networking hardware well over 10 years old. Some of it VERY unique. But, some of it was mass marketed, so a few people here call it garbage and not meeting the criteria. Amigas, certain PS/2's, etc- should be allowed as many of these are VERY reasonably inside the classic and unique factors of interest to a bunch of us who make up this group. ClassicCmp is for most classic computer collectors, not just the snobbish from the "beverly hills" class of collectors. Remember that. -John Boffemmyer IV At 11:13 AM 9/29/2005, you wrote: >Rumor has it that Tom Jennings may have mentioned these words: >>Eh. Dump the 10 year rule and cut off at 1994. > >Sure, but then my Amiga wouldn't be classic anymore. It was built in >'98. Oh, wait, then it still isn't, even *with* the 10-year rule. :-/ > >>When the computer-user count became in the millions it's >>simply not the same. > >OK, then that would rule out Commodore 64 (several million sold) the >Tandy Model 100's (several million sold) and even Ataris & Tandy CoCos. > >We were *well into* millions of users by '84, not '94. > >>pretty much ANY >>computer from the 70s and even 80s is "interesting". > >But what about the 90's? > >Seriously - let's look at this: > >When I joined the list, CoCo 3s weren't technically ontopic yet, as >they'd been sold until '92. (Disco'ed in '91, I think I saw one >(still in a RS store) in '93. > >When I joined the list, Macintoshes *still couldn't* multitask; >8-bitters could do that since '81-82 (whenever OS-9 was released). >Yet lots of people are still waxing poetic about 68K Macs - I found >them udderly[1] pitiful... much less useful for the power available >than my NT4 workstation. Granted, I wasn't doing photo editing or >typesetting; just the basics. > >[[ dons flameproof knickers... I'm not saying that Macs sucked, but >I was rather disheartened when I finally had access to a Mac, that >every other sentence I said started with "whaddya mean it can't..." >What it could do, it did very well; but as a general-purpose >computing platform, the OS was rather lacking. ]] > >> Pretty much >>anything post-MSDOS is deadly dull -- with exceptions of course. > >And *who* gets to choose which exceptions are acceptable? That's the >"slippery slope" we must climb, and why these "ten-year-rule" >arguments come up every 6 months or so... > >>Consistency is for machinery. > >And yet, it's the human inconsistency that keeps us rehashing the >subject ad nauseum... :-/ > >Laterz, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger > >[1] Not a typo - I rather thought they were "suckin' hind teat" if >you catch my drift. ;-) After using OS-9 Level 2, with multiple >hardware & software windows, and being able to recalculate a >spreadsheet, spellcheck a document and play Rogue (albeit somewhat >slowly) at the same time - I really missed that ability when I >started working with MacOS. (And yes, to be fair - MS-DOS & it's ilk as well.) > >-- >Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." >SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein >zmerch at 30below.com | > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.8/113 - Release Date: 9/27/2005 > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.8/113 - Release Date: 9/27/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.8/113 - Release Date: 9/27/2005 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 29 13:12:07 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 13:12:07 -0500 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050929123227.04a779e8@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050929131013.04bff768@mail> At 01:03 PM 9/29/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >What's more interesting (and relevant for us) is the cusp at which it >becomes "collectable" and therefore "desirable" and henceforth "valuable" >once more (and if not, why not?) As I'm sure someone else will step forward to argue, "value" is only of a concern for those with warehouses full of computers they hope to sell someday. There's plenty of classic computer owners who love their favorite for baby-duck reasons. Price is set between a buyer and a seller. Value can be personal. - John From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Sep 29 13:27:13 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:27:13 -0400 Subject: TMOTFCE: Oatmeal!!! (was: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: <20050929002447.L640@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050929141629.03aa47b0@mail.30below.com> [[ The Most Off Topic F'ing Crap Ever!!! ]] ;-) Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: > > Consistency is for machinery. > >And for well prepared oatmeal, which this bowl I am currently eating is >not. Step 1: Go down to the local mega-mart, and pick yerself up a bag of "Steel Cut Oats" or it may be labeled "Scottish Oatmeal." Step 2: Follow this recipe: http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/recipes/recipe/0,1977,FOOD_9936_17138,00.html [[ Personally, I'd replace the dried cranberries with dried cherries, but that's just me. ]] Recipe above brought to by the ?bergeek of food, Alton Brown. At least this is more fun than rehashing the damn 10-year rule, gubbermint, guns, carburetors, or what-have-you... Laterz, "Merch" P.S. if you don't have a slowcooker or wanna wait 8 hours for the best oatmeal ever, try this one: http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/recipes/recipe/0,1977,FOOD_9936_17140,00.html It's still a lot better than that Quaker crap... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 29 13:38:28 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:38:28 -0600 Subject: TMOTFCE: Oatmeal!!! (was: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050929141629.03aa47b0@mail.30below.com> References: <20050929002447.L640@fiche.wps.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050929141629.03aa47b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <433C34A4.2050003@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Step 1: Go down to the local mega-mart, and pick yerself up a bag of > "Steel Cut Oats" or it may be labeled "Scottish Oatmeal." Hmm a BIG bag of Oats for feeding your horse is dirt cheap. :) > Step 2: Follow this recipe: > http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/recipes/recipe/0,1977,FOOD_9936_17138,00.html And of course it wants some NON html feature to work. > [[ Personally, I'd replace the dried cranberries with dried cherries, > but that's just me. ]] > P.S. if you don't have a slowcooker or wanna wait 8 hours for the best > oatmeal ever, try this one: > http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/recipes/recipe/0,1977,FOOD_9936_17140,00.html > > It's still a lot better than that Quaker crap... That reminds to pick up a box of crushed grains and rasins for breakfast. :) From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Sep 29 13:55:18 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:55:18 -0700 Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? In-Reply-To: <200509290745.DAA13944@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200509280615.j8S6F1iB076581@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200509290745.DAA13944@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: Anyone have a datasheet for Hitachi HM511000AJP8 DRAMs? It's used in at least some IIfx SIMMS. What's the deal with parity on the IIfx? Is the parity bit stored off the SIMM? The technote http://developer.apple.com/technotes/hw/pdf/hw_25.pdfmentions parity, are there 9-chip SIMMS on the IIfx? Or is the parity stored on a separate RAM on the mainboard? Since your max memory is 8x(4Mx8bit bit SIMMS) accessed 32 bits at a time (I assume) you'd only need 1 Mbit of parity RAM if you do parity across 32 bits.) Eric From allain at panix.com Thu Sep 29 13:57:51 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:57:51 -0400 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( References: <00a201c5c51a$56d2bc00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <6.2.1.2.2.20050929123227.04a779e8@mail> Message-ID: <024801c5c527$b1dd6480$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > It's an interesting flip side to the popular instantiations of > Moore's Law, ...where the price might be based on weight alone. I follow Moore's Law all the time in time/value comparisons. I think you have the essence of it. Value follows a neat curve down to the value of scrap, which is the essential 0 point, then rebounds as true collectible, following some other curve altogether. John A. From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Sep 29 14:07:05 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:07:05 -0400 Subject: TMOTFCE: Oatmeal!!! (was: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <433C34A4.2050003@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050929141629.03aa47b0@mail.30below.com> <20050929002447.L640@fiche.wps.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050929141629.03aa47b0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050929145529.03aac278@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that woodelf may have mentioned these words: >Roger Merchberger wrote: > >>Step 1: Go down to the local mega-mart, and pick yerself up a bag of >>"Steel Cut Oats" or it may be labeled "Scottish Oatmeal." > >Hmm a BIG bag of Oats for feeding your horse is dirt cheap. :) Yes, but not that many people have hammermills available... mind you, I just happen to have one... ;-) Otherwise, you'd prolly end up with 'grain soup' which just isn't good eats. [[ Sorry! ;-) ]] >And of course it wants some NON html feature to work. Dunno why yer havin' a problem... I just tried it in lynx and it worked fine. Bring up the page & hit the spacebar twice. (well, that's with a 100x42 character screen... maybe 3 or 4 spacebars at 80x25. ;-) (Oh, and it works just fine in Firefox, too... ;-) Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 29 14:14:32 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 13:14:32 -0600 Subject: TMOTFCE: Oatmeal!!! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050929145529.03aac278@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050929141629.03aa47b0@mail.30below.com> <20050929002447.L640@fiche.wps.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050929141629.03aa47b0@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050929145529.03aac278@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <433C3D18.6010007@jetnet.ab.ca> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Yes, but not that many people have hammermills available... mind you, I > just happen to have one... ;-) Now would be a good time to find a copy of "Mother Earth News". :) > Otherwise, you'd prolly end up with 'grain soup' which just isn't good > eats. [[ Sorry! ;-) ]] > Dunno why yer havin' a problem... I just tried it in lynx and it worked > fine. Bring up the page & hit the spacebar twice. (well, that's with a > 100x42 character screen... maybe 3 or 4 spacebars at 80x25. ;-) I got it a second time here. The first time it got stuck on between a pop-up and 'download flash' box. > Laterz, > "Merch" > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers > zmerch at 30below.com > > Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! > > . > From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 29 14:22:24 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:22:24 +0100 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050928230039.000040cb@brass> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <20050928230039.000040cb@brass> Message-ID: <575131af050929122268dd0fd9@mail.gmail.com> On 29/09/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > There are 'aspects' of Windows 95 that are interesting. Did you know > that there is a 5-1/4" floppy version of Windows 95? It's for HD > floppies, but it does exist. I ordered it using the coupon in the back > of my 'CD' version of Windows 95. It has the unique feature of being > the OLDEST and SMALLEST version of Windows 95. Copy all the diskettes > into one big directory and you have an aprox 30 meg cluster of files. > Install it on a system and it is an extremely no-frills version. No > Internet nothin' for example. And it doesn't prompt for a CD key to > install, and it doesn't 'fingerprint' the diskettes like the 3-1/2" > diskette version. Hmmm. I'm dubious. I'm not aware of any differing editions of Win95 in each individual version. Original Win95 - not 95a, not OSR 2 or 2.1 or 2.5 but the plain release version - *was* very basic by today's standards. No web browser - IE came in the Plus Pack, a paid-for optional extra. No CD key & I'm not aware of 95 doing anything to fingerprint diskettes. Sounds like a standard copy of the 1st version to me, on different media. -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Sep 29 14:40:36 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:40:36 -0400 Subject: transputers Message-ID: <200509291940.j8TJebxA021138@mwave.heeltoe.com> Hi, I find myself, in real work, for money and everything, working on an ST20 micro. Little did I know it was a transputer :-) I recall seeing some messages here from people who seemed to be interested in transputers. I'm curious - is there any nice "hints & kinks" on the web for transputers, or a good book or tutorial? It's not that complex but I am curious to hear from anyone "in the know" as it where about ways to make them go fast... (it's so rare when my hobbies cross my day gig. note to self... :-) -brad From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Sep 29 14:43:12 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:43:12 -0400 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <575131af050929122268dd0fd9@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050928230039.000040cb@brass> <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <20050928230039.000040cb@brass> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050929153346.04cb4d30@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Liam Proven may have mentioned these words: >On 29/09/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > > ... And it doesn't prompt for a CD key to > > install, and it doesn't 'fingerprint' the diskettes like the 3-1/2" > > diskette version. > >Hmmm. I'm dubious. Not sure why... Micro$oft is rarely compatible with itself, even on the best of days... ;-) > I'm not aware of any differing editions of Win95 in >each individual version. Original Win95 - not 95a, not OSR 2 or 2.1 or >2.5 but the plain release version - *was* very basic by today's >standards. True. > No web browser - IE came in the Plus Pack, a paid-for >optional extra. Which not many people paid for... ;-) > No CD key Bzzt. Wrong. Original Win95, at least the [very early] CD-ROM versions that I worked with, did require a CD key... and you had to be careful to type in the capital -OEM- by hand; most people typed it in lowercase, and it would not pass the checksum test. Win95A (and up) changed this to 'assume' uppercase. I'm not saying there *weren't* Win95 versions (read: corporate) that didn't need a CD-Key, but *every* one I ever worked with did, and I worked with a lot of copies of Win95 very early on, from a lot of OEMs and copies purchased straight from M$. Yes, that job drove me to drink. Often. In copious quantities. ;-) > & I'm not aware of 95 doing anything to fingerprint diskettes. This I cannot speak for - I never worked with the floppy version of Win95. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Sep 29 14:50:36 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:50:36 +0100 Subject: Air "Purifier" Warning In-Reply-To: <009301c5c4bd$224f90f0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> References: <009301c5c4bd$224f90f0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: <0d9524b24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <009301c5c4bd$224f90f0$d153f945 at owneriywbc5o7y> "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" wrote: > It's here: http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/ArticleID/11084/11084.html Electric air cleaner? What a joke. 'Round here we just open a window :) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Don't blame me! I just test the thing! From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Sep 29 14:50:21 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:50:21 +0100 Subject: Apple II on Lost In-Reply-To: <200509290153.j8T1r5C4009080@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> References: <200509290153.j8T1r5C4009080@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: In message <200509290153.j8T1r5C4009080 at alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: > Just a heads up, for those who haven't watched last week's or this week's > episode of Lost. They made it down in to the strange bunker and it > appears to be a fallout shelter of sorts. Looks to be done in a late 70's > motif. There's a full Apple II setup (two disk II drives) though they > never show the name. Wierdly they have some reel to reel stuff in the > background. Looks like the UK is running a bit behind you - just saw the ep where Sayid gets kidnapped by the infamous "French lady" from the radio transmission. "Sixteen years, has it really been that long?" Later. -- Phil. | Acorn RiscPC600 SA220 64MB+6GB 100baseT philpem at philpem.me.uk | Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxe R2 512MB+100GB http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Panasonic CF-25 Mk.2 Toughbook ... Today is cancelled due to lack of interest! From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Sep 29 14:48:41 2005 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:48:41 -0400 Subject: Don't use "BidPay"!!!! In-Reply-To: <43399AF0.2080900@oldskool.org> References: <200509210718390296.04F53DC8@smtp.comcast.net> <3.0.6.16.20050921113149.3317a39e@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <4331E633.9050505@bellsouth.net> <43399AF0.2080900@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <433C4519.3000305@bellsouth.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Glen Goodwin wrote: >> Solution: don't keep funds in your PayPal account. > > > This doesn't work -- A seller friend of mine had his bank account go > from $0 to $80 overdrawn (ie. -$80) thanks to Paypal. Bank fees mounted > daily and he just had to sit there and eat it. Hmm. My banker has told me otherwise. I hope I never have to find out. Glen 0/0 From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Thu Sep 29 14:57:24 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:57:24 -0400 Subject: transputers Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557830D30@cpexchange.olf.com> Come to my website at http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer. I havent set up a ST20 site yet, but what are you looking for? Datasheets, etc, etc.. Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: Brad Parker [mailto:brad at heeltoe.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 3:41 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: transputers > > > > Hi, > > I find myself, in real work, for money and everything, > working on an ST20 micro. > > Little did I know it was a transputer :-) > > I recall seeing some messages here from people who seemed to > be interested in transputers. > > I'm curious - is there any nice "hints & kinks" on the web > for transputers, or a good book or tutorial? It's not that > complex but I am curious to hear from anyone "in the know" as > it where about ways to make them go fast... > > (it's so rare when my hobbies cross my day gig. note to self... :-) > > -brad > From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 29 15:17:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 13:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.4.2.20050929112453.0331ea48@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > A number of technologies are unique or interesting to some people, > even if others want to be pompous and claim because it doesn't meet > an arbitrary rule they set, it isn't good enough to be classic, etc. > I still use MCA based IBM PS/2's and decommissioned Bay Networks > networking hardware well over 10 years old. Some of it VERY unique. > But, some of it was mass marketed, so a few people here call it > garbage and not meeting the criteria. Amigas, certain PS/2's, etc- > should be allowed as many of these are VERY reasonably inside the > classic and unique factors of interest to a bunch of us who make up > this group. ClassicCmp is for most classic computer collectors, not > just the snobbish from the "beverly hills" class of collectors. Remember that. Hmm, I don't recall anyone ever claiming that PS/2's or Amigas were not classic, let alone being dickish about it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 29 15:20:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 13:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050929131013.04bff768@mail> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, John Foust wrote: > At 01:03 PM 9/29/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >What's more interesting (and relevant for us) is the cusp at which it > >becomes "collectable" and therefore "desirable" and henceforth "valuable" > >once more (and if not, why not?) > > As I'm sure someone else will step forward to argue, > "value" is only of a concern for those with warehouses full > of computers they hope to sell someday. There's plenty of > classic computer owners who love their favorite for baby-duck reasons. > > Price is set between a buyer and a seller. Value can be personal. Well, your Foustian philosophy aside, the fact is that there is another interesting "bath tub" curve when it comes to computers. They start high (generally), then dip substantially, flatline for a while, then they start to climb again. eBay prices and horders notwithstanding, this concept of value resurrection is interesting to me. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 29 15:25:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 13:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050929153346.04cb4d30@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > & I'm not aware of 95 doing anything to fingerprint diskettes. > > This I cannot speak for - I never worked with the floppy version of Win95. Well, it's technically on-topic, so WTF: The first install of W95 I had was a bootleg of their beta on something like 15 3.5" diskettes. In fact...yep, weird, still sitting on my printer desk. It's been there for, gosh, I guess 10 years now :) 13 disks actually. Wow, that brings back bad memories (and I'm not just talking about W95 ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 29 15:29:07 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:29:07 -0400 Subject: offlist Re: Looking for: BCC180 schematics and.. Message-ID: <0INL00GM4I5N6FT0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: offlist Re: Looking for: BCC180 schematics and.. > From: Chris M > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 08:05:45 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >That sounds like something that was published in Byte >years ago. As a matter of fact I'm pretty positive. >Mostly definate. 99% anyway. Provided I have it, would >that solve your problem? Yes. I just need the schematic. I know the SB180 was published in Byte (september '85) as I have the article and the SB180. The BCC180 was a few years later and by then I getting Byte as it had become a PC rag. I've been in the process of moving a small mountain of stuff and this weekend I hope to assess the multibus boards I have. Allison From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 29 15:35:29 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:35:29 +0100 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050929153346.04cb4d30@mail.30below.com> References: <20050928230039.000040cb@brass> <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <20050928230039.000040cb@brass> <5.1.0.14.2.20050929153346.04cb4d30@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <433C5011.60201@yahoo.co.uk> Roger Merchberger wrote: > I'm not saying there *weren't* Win95 versions (read: corporate) that > didn't need a CD-Key, but *every* one I ever worked with did, and I > worked with a lot of copies of Win95 very early on, from a lot of OEMs > and copies purchased straight from M$. Indeed - ISTR the numbers being somewhat interchangeable though. One CD key would happily work with a Win95 CD that was shipped with a different key, which always seemed a little pointless. Hmm actually, was it Win95 where the entry of the key was optional and hitting escape just let you skip past it (with all the legal issues that created)? Maybe that was a different bit of MS software with a CD key at around the same time though... From starmaster at gmail.com Thu Sep 29 15:41:44 2005 From: starmaster at gmail.com (Star Master) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:41:44 -0600 Subject: PET help Message-ID: <5736e825050929134112dcdb91@mail.gmail.com> I recently acquired through the generous efforts of a member here, a Commodore PET 2001-32B. It boots up to just garbage characters on the screen. Any quick things I can check or a 'suspect' part? Also if anyone knows where I can obtain a schematic for this beauty, please let me know! Thanks From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 29 14:13:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:13:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Walther" at Sep 28, 5 02:56:31 am Message-ID: > It sounds like the tristate buffers don't do exactly what I would > like, although I think I can make it work with more logic in front of > the control line for the buffer. > > However, doing a bit more research, it looks like what I really need > is a Transmission Gate. The important difference is that a > transmission gate will pass the input regardless of its state, so L > passes L, H passes H and Z passes as Z. The disadvantage is that if > you have a noisy signal, the TG doesn't clean it up at all the way a > TB will. > > The catch is that I cannot find one listed anywhere as a part that > one can actually buy. Are transmission gates purchasable parts? Or > are they just something they discussed in my VLSI textbook? An analogue switch IC is a similar device, and those do exist. The problem is finding one that will switch quickly enough (I would guess in a few nanoseconds) for this application. Also remmeber that analogue switches don't buffer the signal, you don't get an increased drive current if you use one. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 29 15:43:20 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 13:43:20 -0700 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <002801c5c512$c5434310$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> References: <002801c5c512$c5434310$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> Message-ID: At 12:28 PM -0400 9/29/05, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >You're saying the Apple G4/G5 are vintage? Get real... No, I'm saying that the original G4 and G5 towers will be classics. Both are very important systems in the line. Granted a better argument could probably be made for the B&W G3's than the original G4's, but I prefer the "business" look they went for with the original G4's. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 29 14:14:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:14:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: model 100 backup nicad In-Reply-To: <1127956597.20410.42.camel@aragorn> from "John R. Hogerhuis" at Sep 28, 5 06:16:36 pm Message-ID: > As you probably know there is a rechargeable nicad on the M100 board > that backs up the RAM. These unfortunately do conk out eventually > barfing battery acid onto the board. \begin{pedant} It's a NiCd, it therefore leak battery _alkali_ \end{pedant} -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 29 14:21:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:21:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <433B6760.6040502@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Sep 28, 5 11:02:40 pm Message-ID: > Haven't you guys seen the USB-powered "personal massager"? Not having got anything with a USB port, or even the option of a USB port, I tend not to look at anything that claims to be USB compatible. > > I guess it's intended for those late-night surfing sessions, when > your, uhh, _neck_ gets really stiff. Presumably if you use it a bit lower down, then a certain organ _gets_ really stiff :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 29 14:24:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:24:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <20050928231532.00004793@brass> from "Scott Stevens" at Sep 28, 5 11:15:32 pm Message-ID: > There are Middle-era PC Clone machines that are pretty much only useful > as power supplies. A few times when I've needed quick-and-dirty 12 > volts I have taken an old clone supply and tapped into the yellow and > black of a drive cable connector. The only thing is, the PC switchers > won't start up and regulate properly without a nominal load on the 5 > volt line. So you plug in and duct tape an old 3-1/2" hard drive to > the power supply and use it as a 'dummy load.' In other words it's a kludge. Most, if not all, PC power supplies take the reguation feedback loop from the 5V output (after all, that's the important one in the intended application), the 12V line tracks along. And I doubt there's a crowbar on the 12V line. And then something fails, you don't have schematics, the parts are unobtainable, so you grab another old PC power supply and kludge that one to work... Personally, I value my toys enough to give them a properly designed power supply. One that I know is regulated from the output I am using, with a crowbar, and with proper docuemntation. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 29 14:29:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:29:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <200509290530.BAA12723@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Sep 29, 5 01:28:28 am Message-ID: > > >> [...] a motorized USB "Aquarium" [...] > > Whule I can see the point of taking power from the computer for an > > interface converter, keyboard, mouse, something like that, wouldn't > > it be simpler if devices like the aquarium, light, etc had their own > > mains adapters? > > Yes, but it would tie them to the mains. You are seriously suggestingthat the fake aquarium is a portable device? Why would anyone want to carry one around with them? > > > Or is a computer now regarded as simpler than a 5V PSU? > > Not simpler, but in a lot of cases more portable. As regards a light, I use this simple devic containg 4 components. A couple of AA-size primary cells, a tungsten filament lamp, and a swtich. Even I can keep one of those going :-). Should I need a portable 5V power supply, I am quite sure I can design one using whatever rechargeable battery is around, and it would be a lot simpler than a computer... > You may not use laptops enough to think of them, but there are a lot of > people who border on attached at the hip to theirs. They may not have > a mains outlet handy, but they *always* have a powered USB port handy. Oh, I do use laptops. Just not PC compatible ones, and certainly not ones with a USB port. I'll even admit to using the 5V line on the barcode reader port of my M100 to power a little hardware hack... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 29 14:38:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:38:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050929002447.L640@fiche.wps.com> from "Tom Jennings" at Sep 29, 5 00:29:16 am Message-ID: > > Eh. Dump the 10 year rule and cut off at 1994. > > I'm serious. The computer world is not a flat, linear space from > 1948 to present. Somewhere after the beginning of the > pc/appliance age, computers are qualitatively different. > > The culture and tech is different too. You could more easily lump > the mini and mainframe people together than the mini and pc > people. When the computer-user count became in the millions it's > simply not the same. > > At some point post-1990 computers became near-pure commodity. It's > like collecting toasters. There are intersting models, but not in > the way that say 1960s or even 1970s are -- pretty much ANY > computer from the 70s and even 80s is "interesting". Pretty much > anything post-MSDOS is deadly dull -- with exceptions of course. I think you've 'hit the nail on the head'. Before the 'everything's a Wintel Box' time, there were all sorts of ideas being tried. Some were good. Some were frankly awful. But most were certainly interesting. I will be the first to admit that many of the classic computers that I don't persoanally care for are at least interesting. But there really is nothing special about 99% of Wintel boxes. And since repair/upgrad consists of swapping parts for parts that are not generally identical, what does define what machine you've got? It may say %clone-maker on the fronat panel, but the hard disk, motherboard, PSU, etc may now be ones that said maker never put in at the factory. So what do you actually have. I certainly have no interest in collecting cases with particular names on them :-) To give a stupid example, an IBM-badged Wintel box is pretty similar to an HP-bardged Wintel box. But 30 years ago, the IBM 'personal' machine (5100) was very different to its HP competitor (9830). -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 29 15:40:02 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:40:02 +0100 Subject: Apple II on Lost In-Reply-To: References: <200509290153.j8T1r5C4009080@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <433C5122.4090106@yahoo.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <200509290153.j8T1r5C4009080 at alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> > Martin Scott Goldberg wrote: > > >>Just a heads up, for those who haven't watched last week's or this week's >>episode of Lost. They made it down in to the strange bunker and it >>appears to be a fallout shelter of sorts. Looks to be done in a late 70's >>motif. There's a full Apple II setup (two disk II drives) though they >>never show the name. Wierdly they have some reel to reel stuff in the >>background. > > > Looks like the UK is running a bit behind you I think series two's just started here... which is annoying as I saw only two episodes of series one when I left the UK, and they don't seem to be doing repeats here yet. Hopefully they'll run them again in the UK on terrestrial TV sometime so I can catch up :) From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Sep 29 16:01:37 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:01:37 -0700 Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? In-Reply-To: References: <200509280615.j8S6F1iB076581@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200509290745.DAA13944@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: I also notice that the table on page 2 of the technote contradicts the IIfx section. The table says you can put up to 128MB in a IIfx, but the IIfx section says the biggest SIMM allowed is 256kx8. Eric On 9/29/05, Eric J Korpela wrote: > > Anyone have a datasheet for Hitachi HM511000AJP8 DRAMs? It's used in at > least some IIfx SIMMS. > > What's the deal with parity on the IIfx? Is the parity bit stored off the > SIMM? The technote http://developer.apple.com/technotes/hw/pdf/hw_25.pdfmentions parity, are there 9-chip SIMMS on the IIfx? Or is the parity stored > on a separate RAM on the mainboard? Since your max memory is 8x(4Mx8bit bit > SIMMS) accessed 32 bits at a time (I assume) you'd only need 1 Mbit of > parity RAM if you do parity across 32 bits.) > > Eric > > > > > > From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Sep 29 16:06:54 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:06:54 -0500 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <433C5011.60201@yahoo.co.uk> References: <20050928230039.000040cb@brass> <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <20050928230039.000040cb@brass> <5.1.0.14.2.20050929153346.04cb4d30@mail.30below.com> <433C5011.60201@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <433C576E.2080106@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Roger Merchberger wrote: > >> I'm not saying there *weren't* Win95 versions (read: corporate) that >> didn't need a CD-Key, but *every* one I ever worked with did, and I >> worked with a lot of copies of Win95 very early on, from a lot of OEMs >> and copies purchased straight from M$. > > > Indeed - ISTR the numbers being somewhat interchangeable though. One CD > key would happily work with a Win95 CD that was shipped with a different > key, which always seemed a little pointless. > > Hmm actually, was it Win95 where the entry of the key was optional and > hitting escape just let you skip past it (with all the legal issues that > created)? Maybe that was a different bit of MS software with a CD key at > around the same time though... I think that was WFW3.11. If you could do it with W95 I never figured out how. Not that I ever tried, or anything.... ;^) Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Sep 29 16:10:23 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:10:23 -0500 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <433C583F.4020508@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Roger Merchberger wrote: > The first install of W95 I had was a bootleg of their beta on something > like 15 3.5" diskettes. In fact...yep, weird, still sitting on my > printer desk. It's been there for, gosh, I guess 10 years now :) 13 > disks actually. Wow, that brings back bad memories (and I'm not just > talking about W95 ;) The full OEM 3.5" floppy version of W95b is 29 disks. I have it somewhere. The installation was excruciating, on par with SCO OpenDesktop v2.x. Doc From pechter at gmail.com Thu Sep 29 16:12:33 2005 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:12:33 -0400 Subject: WPS All in One files... In-Reply-To: <431DA277.5010008@atarimuseum.com> References: <0IM2009L5EQL37Z2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <431525F9.6000806@atarimuseum.com> <43152A44.1040707@atarimuseum.com> <431D9F34.3010305@gmail.com> <431DA277.5010008@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <433C58C1.5000606@gmail.com> I'm not sure... If I ever find another set of WPS-PC I'll take a look. I know I have WPS-80 (the CP/M version) and I'm not sure if the format's different. There was some support of DEC/dx file transfer with WPS-11... and IIRC DECmates. Bill Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Hi Bill, > > Thats for the info. Is WPS also formatted the same as Word 11 ? > > > > Curt > > > > Bill Pechter wrote: > >> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> >>> Is there any PC/Win based app that can import in WPS All in One files? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Curt >>> >>> >>> >>> >> WPS-80, WPS-PC (a non-DEC implementation) did document transfer and >> maybe import from DECmates >> and ran on Rainbows and PCs. I don't know if the All-in-One WPS >> format was the same as the >> PDP8 based stuff -- but it may be. >> >> The company Exceptional Business Solutions seems to have dropped from >> sight. >> >> I don't know if there's any way to legally get a copy of the software. >> >> Bill >> >> >> > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Sep 29 16:15:02 2005 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:15:02 -0500 (CDT) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200509292115.QAA14920@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > > > >> [...] a motorized USB "Aquarium" [...] > > > Whule I can see the point of taking power from the computer for an > > > interface converter, keyboard, mouse, something like that, wouldn't > > > it be simpler if devices like the aquarium, light, etc had their own > > > mains adapters? > > > > Yes, but it would tie them to the mains. > > You are seriously suggesting that the fake aquarium is a portable device? > Why would anyone want to carry one around with them? I think the fake USB aquarium is designed to be ON only when the computer is on, in other words its only on when someone is 'working' at their desk. > > As regards a light, I use this simple device containg 4 components. A > couple of AA-size primary cells, a tungsten filament lamp, and a swtich. > Even I can keep one of those going :-). > WOW, you really cling to the obsolete technology! Filament Lamps! AA batteries, and alkaline too no doubt... Its all Lithium power cells and Xenon or LED bulbs these days ;) I bet you're still using some version of Edisons carbon filament incandescent bulbs in your home too, even though compact fluorescents cost less than $2, last 10 - 15 times longer than your 60 cent incandescent bulbs, and use 1/4 the electricity (soon to be obsolete, though, when the cold cathode bulbs start appearing in higher wattages). -Larry (a funny pink bunny commercial? Why I'll buy that battery...) LeMay From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 29 16:16:41 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Air "Purifier" Warning In-Reply-To: <0d9524b24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <009301c5c4bd$224f90f0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> <0d9524b24d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <20050929141610.X48076@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <009301c5c4bd$224f90f0$d153f945 at owneriywbc5o7y> > "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" wrote: > > It's here: http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/ArticleID/11084/11084.html > Electric air cleaner? What a joke. 'Round here we just open a window :) Yeah. But SOME people want to plug it into their USB port. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Sep 29 16:16:42 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:16:42 -0400 Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? References: <200509280615.j8S6F1iB076581@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200509290745.DAA13944@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <006901c5c53b$1707b2d0$0500fea9@game> All the IIfx ram I have and have seen were 9 chip (1MB and 4MB SIMMs). I think the 16MB SIMMs were very tall and had more then 9 chips on them like the ones in the picture below. http://www.mathdittos2.com/columns/bh/bh990511.html The machine pictured has 68MB of ram (4x16MB plus 4x1MB). 128MB is the maximum ram available. It looks like the 16MB SIMMs in the picture have 36 chips on them (probably the same chips that make up the 4MB part just 4 times as many). I Hope this helps. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric J Korpela" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 5:01 PM Subject: Re: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? I also notice that the table on page 2 of the technote contradicts the IIfx section. The table says you can put up to 128MB in a IIfx, but the IIfx section says the biggest SIMM allowed is 256kx8. Eric On 9/29/05, Eric J Korpela wrote: > > Anyone have a datasheet for Hitachi HM511000AJP8 DRAMs? It's used in at > least some IIfx SIMMS. > > What's the deal with parity on the IIfx? Is the parity bit stored off the > SIMM? The technote http://developer.apple.com/technotes/hw/pdf/hw_25.pdfmentions parity, are there 9-chip SIMMS on the IIfx? Or is the parity stored > on a separate RAM on the mainboard? Since your max memory is 8x(4Mx8bit bit > SIMMS) accessed 32 bits at a time (I assume) you'd only need 1 Mbit of > parity RAM if you do parity across 32 bits.) > > Eric > > > > > > From spc at conman.org Thu Sep 29 16:19:17 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Sep 29, 2005 08:29:51 PM Message-ID: <20050929211918.5F15773029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > > > >> [...] a motorized USB "Aquarium" [...] > > > Whule I can see the point of taking power from the computer for an > > > interface converter, keyboard, mouse, something like that, wouldn't > > > it be simpler if devices like the aquarium, light, etc had their own > > > mains adapters? > > > > Yes, but it would tie them to the mains. > > You are seriously suggestingthat the fake aquarium is a portable device? > Why would anyone want to carry one around with them? Tony, Tony, Tony. This is *America!* You can get a device that attaches to your vacuum (the one you clean carpets with) to cut your hair [1] (and the fact that the company that makes it can afford *television* advertising means there are people here that *buy* this thing). A fake aquarium powered by a USB port seems tame by comparrison. -spc (And don't forget---P. T. Barnum sold tickets to the Great Egress ... ) [1] http://www.flowbee.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 29 16:22:26 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:22:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <433C583F.4020508@mdrconsult.com> References: <433C583F.4020508@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20050929142106.F48076@shell.lmi.net> > > The first install of W95 I had was a bootleg of their beta on something > > like 15 3.5" diskettes. In fact...yep, weird, still sitting on my > > printer desk. It's been there for, gosh, I guess 10 years now :) 13 > > disks actually. Wow, that brings back bad memories (and I'm not just > > talking about W95 ;) > The full OEM 3.5" floppy version of W95b is 29 disks. I have it > somewhere. The 3.5" 720K was more disks than the 3.5" 1.4M. 'Course the 360K 5.25" edition had the most disks. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 29 16:31:42 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 22:31:42 +0100 Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <20050929211918.5F15773029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: <20050929211918.5F15773029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <433C5D3E.2050603@yahoo.co.uk> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: >>You are seriously suggestingthat the fake aquarium is a portable device? >>Why would anyone want to carry one around with them? > > > Tony, Tony, Tony. This is *America!* You can get a device that attaches > to your vacuum (the one you clean carpets with) to cut your hair I did see an advert yesterday for a toothbrush with a computer in it, which was somewhat disturbing... From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Sep 29 16:49:06 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:49:06 -0400 Subject: PET help In-Reply-To: <5736e825050929134112dcdb91@mail.gmail.com> References: <5736e825050929134112dcdb91@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <433C6152.60203@atarimuseum.com> Sounds like possibly some bad memory... I would recommend pulling the mainboard out, reseating all chips that are socketed and remove and reseat all connectors and try powering up again, many times it can simply be some oxidation build up. Curt Star Master wrote: >I recently acquired through the generous efforts of a member here, a >Commodore PET 2001-32B. It boots up to just garbage characters on the >screen. Any quick things I can check or a 'suspect' part? Also if anyone >knows where I can obtain a schematic for this beauty, please let me know! >Thanks > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.8/114 - Release Date: 9/28/2005 From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Sep 29 16:51:13 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:51:13 -0400 Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? References: Message-ID: <17212.25041.893436.276853@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> It sounds like the tristate buffers don't do exactly what I would >> like, although I think I can make it work with more logic in front >> of the control line for the buffer. >> >> However, doing a bit more research, it looks like what I really >> need is a Transmission Gate. The important difference is that a >> transmission gate will pass the input regardless of its state, so >> L passes L, H passes H and Z passes as Z. The disadvantage is >> that if you have a noisy signal, the TG doesn't clean it up at all >> the way a TB will. >> >> The catch is that I cannot find one listed anywhere as a part that >> one can actually buy. Are transmission gates purchasable parts? >> Or are they just something they discussed in my VLSI textbook? Tony> An analogue switch IC is a similar device, and those do Tony> exist. The problem is finding one that will switch quickly Tony> enough (I would guess in a few nanoseconds) for this Tony> application. No problem. Quickswitches are rated to several hundred Megahertz. If that isn't good enough, you can use microwave switch transistors. I don't know the max switch rate of either, but presumably any transistor capable of carrying microwave frequencies can switch on/off in a nanosecond or better. paul From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Sep 29 17:16:46 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? Message-ID: <200509292216.PAA05523@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Paul Koning" > >>>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: > > >> It sounds like the tristate buffers don't do exactly what I would > >> like, although I think I can make it work with more logic in front > >> of the control line for the buffer. > >> > >> However, doing a bit more research, it looks like what I really > >> need is a Transmission Gate. The important difference is that a > >> transmission gate will pass the input regardless of its state, so > >> L passes L, H passes H and Z passes as Z. The disadvantage is > >> that if you have a noisy signal, the TG doesn't clean it up at all > >> the way a TB will. > >> > >> The catch is that I cannot find one listed anywhere as a part that > >> one can actually buy. Are transmission gates purchasable parts? > >> Or are they just something they discussed in my VLSI textbook? > > Tony> An analogue switch IC is a similar device, and those do > Tony> exist. The problem is finding one that will switch quickly > Tony> enough (I would guess in a few nanoseconds) for this > Tony> application. > >No problem. > >Quickswitches are rated to several hundred Megahertz. If that isn't >good enough, you can use microwave switch transistors. I don't know >the max switch rate of either, but presumably any transistor capable >of carrying microwave frequencies can switch on/off in a nanosecond or >better. > > paul Hi The problem is as Tony mentioned, you get no buffering. This means you can't expect to put the mux too far from the inputs on either side. You are really better off using something like '245's. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 29 17:07:30 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:07:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <200509292115.QAA14920@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Sep 29, 5 04:15:02 pm Message-ID: > > You are seriously suggesting that the fake aquarium is a portable device? > > Why would anyone want to carry one around with them? > > I think the fake USB aquarium is designed to be ON only when the computer is > on, in other words its only on when someone is 'working' at their desk. There is little correllation between the times my computer is on, and the times that I'm at the desk/workbanch. But I guess that's unusual... > > > > > As regards a light, I use this simple device containg 4 components. A > > couple of AA-size primary cells, a tungsten filament lamp, and a swtich. > > Even I can keep one of those going :-). > > > > WOW, you really cling to the obsolete technology! Filament Lamps! AA Well, if it works, I haev no intention of replacing it... > batteries, and alkaline too no doubt... Its all Lithium power cells and > Xenon or LED bulbs these days ;) I bet you're still using some version Do you mean xenon discharge (as in a camera 'electronic flash' or xenon filled filaments lamps. Marketroids often (delibarately?) confuse the two. I am quite sure the bulbs in my hand torch (flashlight to you) are gas-filled, I thought krypton, but maybe xenon. > of Edisons carbon filament incandescent bulbs in your home too, even though > compact fluorescents cost less than $2, last 10 - 15 times longer than your > 60 cent incandescent bulbs, and use 1/4 the electricity (soon to be obsolete, > though, when the cold cathode bulbs start appearing in higher wattages). Actually, I use compact fluorescents almost everywhere (I prefer the higher apparent colour temperature). There are 2 specific places I don't use them -- one is over the lathe (I am worried about a possible stroboscopic effect making the machine appear stationary when it's not) and the second is in the darkroom (they have a significantly long afterglow after being turned off -- several minutes -- which is a right pain there). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 29 17:11:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:11:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <20050929211918.5F15773029@linus.groomlake.area51> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Sep 29, 5 05:19:17 pm Message-ID: > > You are seriously suggestingthat the fake aquarium is a portable device? > > Why would anyone want to carry one around with them? > > Tony, Tony, Tony. This is *America!* You can get a device that attaches Last time I checked _this_ is England... > to your vacuum (the one you clean carpets with) to cut your hair [1] (and Yes, I heard about that... I find a pair of tinsnips just as effective (for cutting hair, not cleaning carpets...) > the fact that the company that makes it can afford *television* advertising > means there are people here that *buy* this thing). A fake aquarium powered > by a USB port seems tame by comparrison. > > -spc (And don't forget---P. T. Barnum sold tickets to the Great > Egress ... ) I actually thought he had a door labelled 'To the Egress, children not admitted'. Adults went through it, then had to pay re-admission to his fair to collect their children :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 29 17:12:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:12:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Air "Purifier" Warning In-Reply-To: <20050929141610.X48076@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 29, 5 02:16:41 pm Message-ID: > > Electric air cleaner? What a joke. 'Round here we just open a window :) How do you open a window on a VT100? > > Yeah. > But SOME people want to plug it into their USB port. I am sure there's some joke in there about Windows drivers for the USB interface... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 29 17:15:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:15:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: PET help In-Reply-To: <5736e825050929134112dcdb91@mail.gmail.com> from "Star Master" at Sep 29, 5 02:41:44 pm Message-ID: > > I recently acquired through the generous efforts of a member here, a > Commodore PET 2001-32B. It boots up to just garbage characters on the There are 2 stock faults on old PETs. Firstly, the power harness connector (IIRC a 0.156" header) is rather under-ratted. It tends to oxidise, get even hot, oxidise some more, get hotter, etc. If the plastic has turned brown, replace it. Clean it anyway. The second is that I've fixed several PETs by replacing the cheap-n-nasty IC sockets with turned-pin ones. > screen. Any quick things I can check or a 'suspect' part? Also if anyone > knows where I can obtain a schematic for this beauty, please let me know! There used to be a lot of Commodore schematics (and other info) on ftp://ftp.funet.fi/ . I hope it's all still there or somebody has mirrored it. I don't know if your machine is specifically there, but you might find something close enough to help. > Thanks > From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 29 18:07:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > I guess it's intended for those late-night surfing sessions, when > > your, uhh, _neck_ gets really stiff. > > Presumably if you use it a bit lower down, then a certain organ _gets_ > really stiff :-) Oh, so you've used one? ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 29 18:11:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:11:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <20050929211918.5F15773029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > [1] http://www.flowbee.com/ Holy shit, they're still selling that stupid thing??? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Sep 29 18:40:05 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:40:05 -0500 Subject: identifying PC Simms In-Reply-To: <200509290541.BAA12783@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <007401c5c499$2aa8e7c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> <010b01c5c49f$f97166d0$0500fea9@game> <200509282353000765.2C901E64@smtp.comcast.net> <200509290541.BAA12783@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20050929184005.000000ce@brass> On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 01:35:45 -0400 (EDT) der Mouse wrote: > > I have 16 30-pin simms left over from various past incarnations of my > > PCs, and I'm trying to figure out what I've got. I no longer have a > > motherboard to test them, so I have no idea what is what. > > > Is there any not-to-painless way to figure out what I've got? > > Don't bother, they're totally worthless - I'll take 'em off your hands > for you. :-) > > Seriously, I don't have much left that uses 30-pin memory, but I do > have a few - including one board my only reason for keeping is that > it's got lots of ISA slots.... > I have enough Lunchbox Sparcs (IPC) that use 30 pin simms. Also a few SparcStation 2's that use them. And my SE/30's and several other Mac IIs. But I have a relatively large supply of 4 meg 30 pin simms to meet my needs. I have one 486 motherboard all mounted on a fixture that I use to test RAM for size and functionality. I chose that particular board because it has both 30 and 72 pin sockets. Sad, the 'mere' uses that a '486 motherboard is put to today. I remember when I was the only person I knew with a '486 system at home. A few times in the past I've googled the part number on individual chips on a SIMM to multiply out what the total memory on the SIMM would be. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Sep 29 18:49:48 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:49:48 -0500 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <575131af050929122268dd0fd9@mail.gmail.com> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <20050928230039.000040cb@brass> <575131af050929122268dd0fd9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050929184948.00002c3a@brass> On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:22:24 +0100 Liam Proven wrote: > On 29/09/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > There are 'aspects' of Windows 95 that are interesting. Did you know > > that there is a 5-1/4" floppy version of Windows 95? It's for HD > > floppies, but it does exist. I ordered it using the coupon in the back > > of my 'CD' version of Windows 95. It has the unique feature of being > > the OLDEST and SMALLEST version of Windows 95. Copy all the diskettes > > into one big directory and you have an aprox 30 meg cluster of files. > > Install it on a system and it is an extremely no-frills version. No > > Internet nothin' for example. And it doesn't prompt for a CD key to > > install, and it doesn't 'fingerprint' the diskettes like the 3-1/2" > > diskette version. > > Hmmm. I'm dubious. I'm not aware of any differing editions of Win95 in > each individual version. Original Win95 - not 95a, not OSR 2 or 2.1 or > 2.5 but the plain release version - *was* very basic by today's > standards. No web browser - IE came in the Plus Pack, a paid-for > optional extra. No CD key & I'm not aware of 95 doing anything to > fingerprint diskettes. > The 3-1/2" version of Windows 95 fingerprinted the first diskette when you installed it for the first time. The 'work around' was to always install from a dupe of the first disk and copy-protect the original. Otherwise, any subsequent install didn't prompt for username and would just imprint your name in it (preventing widespread piracy). Windows 95 on 5-1/4" disks did not implement this. Further, Windows 95 on the bigger diskettes is significantly pared down, it appears on fewer 5-1/4" diskettes than the 3-1/2" version, yet the disks are of lower capacity. Lots of the bloat and junk are missing. It's possible the kernel and binaries are identical. Copying all the 3-1/2" diskettes to a single directory and burning to a CD produces a copy that has the 'imprinted' user data and/or insists on writing to the CD after prompting for the user data during install. The install mechanism for the three media releases of Windows 95 (3-1/2" or 5-1/4" floppy, or the CD release) is thus obviously different. The 5-1/4" version is the only one where you can copy all files from the diskettes to a folder, burn to CD, and get an unimprinted install binary set that doesn't prompt for a CD key. I.e. a 'pirate' version of Windows 95 that leaves no traces. Anyways, it's just one of the few interesting 'twists' in an otherwise rather banal product from Microsoft. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Sep 29 18:52:54 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:52:54 -0500 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <433C583F.4020508@mdrconsult.com> References: <433C583F.4020508@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20050929185254.0000047a@brass> On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:10:23 -0500 Doc Shipley wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > The first install of W95 I had was a bootleg of their beta on something > > like 15 3.5" diskettes. In fact...yep, weird, still sitting on my > > printer desk. It's been there for, gosh, I guess 10 years now :) 13 > > disks actually. Wow, that brings back bad memories (and I'm not just > > talking about W95 ;) > > The full OEM 3.5" floppy version of W95b is 29 disks. I have it > somewhere. > > The installation was excruciating, on par with SCO OpenDesktop v2.x. Yep. My install set for a time had a defective diskette #23 that was a rather hammering experience, that far into the install. It only mattered if you selected certain 'options' during the install, otherwise you could avoid certain 'multimedia' features I believe, and it would install properly. Those of us who ever installed Slackware Linux from floppy diskettes know a somewhat similar experience. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Sep 29 18:57:45 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:57:45 -0500 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.4.2.20050929112453.0331ea48@boff-net.dhs.org> References: <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050929102720.03a99b68@mail.30below.com> <6.2.5.4.2.20050929112453.0331ea48@boff-net.dhs.org> Message-ID: <20050929185745.00001654@brass> On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:29:22 -0400 John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > ClassicCmp is for most classic computer collectors, not > just the snobbish from the "beverly hills" class of collectors. Remember that. I read that and it translated '"beverly hillbillies" class' for some reason. Then I started trying to visual a butter churn peripheral, or anything 'possum related. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Sep 29 18:58:47 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:58:47 -0500 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <433C0E00.8030009@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050929102720.03a99b68@mail.30below.com> <433C0E00.8030009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050929185847.000059e1@brass> On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:53:36 -0600 woodelf wrote: > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > When I joined the list, CoCo 3s weren't technically ontopic yet, as > > they'd been sold until '92. (Disco'ed in '91, I think I saw one (still > > in a RS store) in '93. > > > I think you can buy CoCo 3's still. What I want is a REAL OS/9 > machine but I never could afford more than a Coco. Wire-wrap one. That's probably the coolest OS/9 machine you could ever have. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Sep 29 19:04:57 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:04:57 -0500 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: <20050929002447.L640@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <20050929190457.00005641@brass> On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > > > Eh. Dump the 10 year rule and cut off at 1994. > > > > I'm serious. The computer world is not a flat, linear space from > > 1948 to present. Somewhere after the beginning of the > > pc/appliance age, computers are qualitatively different. > > Yeah, but at some point computers from the post-1994 period will be > interesting, or in the very least, certain ones. Most everything from > Apple post iMac (including the iMac itself) is interesting already. I would argue that anything pre iMac from Apple is also quite interesting. There are lots of quirks and nightmarish in some of the middle year Macs that keep the architecture interesting. There's also a rich heritage of third party add-ins and upgrades to explore. Heck, I remember (don't still have) a kludge that was a 'glomper clip' that clamped right over the whole 68000 DIP chip to provide a hard drive interface. I remember third party $300 cooling fans that people would stick into their Mac Plus (which Jobs insisted not sport a cooling fan) to keep it from overheating and crashing. Even the really ugly years in the middle when there were some truly awful Macs produced is very interesting. It would be cool to try to build a complete collection of ALL the Macs in their original configurations. (I have kept one of my SE/30's 'stock' for that purpose.) From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Sep 29 19:12:40 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:12:40 -0500 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 01:51:44 +0100 Liam Proven wrote: > On 28/09/05, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > 40h use? I flat-out don't believe you. That's /use/ - not standby > time, which is many *months*. We're talking 2 *days* of *continuous* > operation. > My Tandy Pocket Computer (a PC-8) still has the same battery in it that it did when I bought it used. Granted, I don't hammer away at it extensively, but I've coded in BASIC programs to factor numbrers to their primes and various other tasks and fooled with it enough. I am talking about a machine as thin as a light-duty calculator which uses a coin battery. I've owned it personally for more than four years now and it STILL has the same battery. And it has retained my BASIC programs that long. From dj.taylor at starpower.net Thu Sep 29 19:14:44 2005 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:14:44 -0400 Subject: FPGA PDP-11 Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20050929201244.01bde3b0@pop.starpower.net> I found this interesting bit of work on the web, it is a college project to create a PDP-11 on a chip; look at the link: http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/pop11.html Why did he pick PDP-11/40 model? Doug From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Sep 29 19:18:53 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:18:53 -0500 Subject: Air "Purifier" Warning In-Reply-To: References: <20050929141610.X48076@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050929191853.0000038d@brass> On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:12:06 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Electric air cleaner? What a joke. 'Round here we just open a window :) > > How do you open a window on a VT100? > You log into a UNIX system on it, bring up Emacs and type "x 2" and it pops up two windows. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Sep 29 19:22:43 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:22:43 -0500 Subject: PCjr (Was Re: IBM PC hacking) In-Reply-To: <200509291633.JAA05390@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200509291633.JAA05390@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050929192243.0000086e@brass> On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:33:32 -0700 (PDT) "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > >From: "Michael B. Brutman" > > > > > >I don't think that the lack of a DMA controller on the PCjr really > >slowed it down any. The old double density drives have a data rate of > >250,000 bps. If the data is presented one byte at a time, that is just > >31250 bytes per second. Even with multiple I/O clock cycles per byte to > >get it to the processor and then to memory, a 4.77Mhz processor can keep > >up with that easily. > > > >Where the lack of DMA would hurt you is on a much faster interface, such > >as a hard disk. Then you wouldn't have any cycles to spare, the the > >difference would show up. > > Hi > I don't think the early PC's used DMA for the hard disk. > The HD controllers usually had sector or track buffers. > The program would wait until the buffer was full and > then just move it by software to memory. The floppies > needed DMA because the controllers didn't buffer more > than one byte. The processor would have had to dedicate > it self to the one task without interrupts. > Dwight > Yep. The floppy disk interface on the PC Junior is painfully slow because all data has to pass through the CPUs accumulator. > From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Sep 29 19:21:10 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:21:10 -0500 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <20050929185254.0000047a@brass> References: <433C583F.4020508@mdrconsult.com> <20050929185254.0000047a@brass> Message-ID: <433C84F6.4020506@mdrconsult.com> Scott Stevens wrote: > On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:10:23 -0500 > Doc Shipley wrote: > > >>Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> >>>On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Roger Merchberger wrote: >> >>>The first install of W95 I had was a bootleg of their beta on > > something > >>>like 15 3.5" diskettes. In fact...yep, weird, still sitting on my >>>printer desk. It's been there for, gosh, I guess 10 years now :) > > 13 > >>>disks actually. Wow, that brings back bad memories (and I'm not > > just > >>>talking about W95 ;) >> >> The full OEM 3.5" floppy version of W95b is 29 disks. I have it >>somewhere. >> >> The installation was excruciating, on par with SCO OpenDesktop > > v2.x. > > Yep. My install set for a time had a defective diskette #23 that was a > rather hammering experience, that far into the install. It only > mattered if you selected certain 'options' during the install, otherwise > you could avoid certain 'multimedia' features I believe, and it would > install properly. > > Those of us who ever installed Slackware Linux from floppy diskettes > know a somewhat similar experience. Yeah, but there was much more pleasurable anticipation in the Slackware install. :) IIRC, Slack v3.3 took 54 1.44MB disks. Doc From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 29 19:22:37 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:22:37 -0600 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <20050929185745.00001654@brass> References: <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050929102720.03a99b68@mail.30below.com> <6.2.5.4.2.20050929112453.0331ea48@boff-net.dhs.org> <20050929185745.00001654@brass> Message-ID: <433C854D.7080502@jetnet.ab.ca> Scott Stevens wrote: > I read that and it translated '"beverly hillbillies" class' for some > reason. Then I started trying to visual a butter churn peripheral, or > anything 'possum related. Hmm a Possum powered puter ... no worse than the USB stuff sold. :) From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 29 19:29:12 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 01:29:12 +0100 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> Message-ID: <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> On 30/09/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > My Tandy Pocket Computer (a PC-8) still has the same battery in it that > it did when I bought it used. Granted, I don't hammer away at it > extensively, but I've coded in BASIC programs to factor numbrers to > their primes and various other tasks and fooled with it enough. I am > talking about a machine as thin as a light-duty calculator which uses a > coin battery. I've owned it personally for more than four years now and > it STILL has the same battery. And it has retained my BASIC programs > that long. OK, I'm impressed, I have to admit it. It's hardly a 32-bit mutitasking GUI-based RISC machine, though, is it? :-) -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From spc at conman.org Thu Sep 29 19:29:36 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:29:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Sep 29, 2005 04:11:15 PM Message-ID: <20050930002936.829D873029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Vintage Computer Festival once stated: > > On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > > [1] http://www.flowbee.com/ > > Holy shit, they're still selling that stupid thing??? Yup, something has to replace the Ronco bottle top cutter. -spc (Never saw either device in person ... ) From spc at conman.org Thu Sep 29 19:30:45 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:30:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Sep 29, 2005 11:11:14 PM Message-ID: <20050930003046.39FB673029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > > You are seriously suggestingthat the fake aquarium is a portable device? > > > Why would anyone want to carry one around with them? > > > > Tony, Tony, Tony. This is *America!* You can get a device that attaches > > Last time I checked _this_ is England... I would be surprised if the portable fake aquarium came from anywhere *other* than America. > > -spc (And don't forget---P. T. Barnum sold tickets to the Great > > Egress ... ) > > I actually thought he had a door labelled 'To the Egress, children not > admitted'. Adults went through it, then had to pay re-admission to his > fair to collect their children :-) Heh. I wonder if either story is actually true ... -spc (But the sad thing is ... I can believe either one ... ) From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 29 19:32:52 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 01:32:52 +0100 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050929153346.04cb4d30@mail.30below.com> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <20050928230039.000040cb@brass> <575131af050929122268dd0fd9@mail.gmail.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050929153346.04cb4d30@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <575131af05092917325a284d99@mail.gmail.com> On 29/09/05, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >Hmmm. I'm dubious. > > Not sure why... Micro$oft is rarely compatible with itself, even on the > best of days... ;-) Good point, well made! > > No web browser - IE came in the Plus Pack, a paid-for > >optional extra. > > Which not many people paid for... ;-) [G] > > No CD key > > Bzzt. Wrong. Original Win95, at least the [very early] CD-ROM versions that > I worked with, did require a CD key... and you had to be careful to type in > the capital -OEM- by hand; most people typed it in lowercase, and it would > not pass the checksum test. > > Win95A (and up) changed this to 'assume' uppercase. [Casts mind back a decade] I do believe you're right. My apologies. Didn't it take the standard MS 11111-111-11111 code, tho'? Or 11112-111-11111 if the 1st didn't work? That worked on most things. -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Sep 29 19:34:07 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:34:07 -0500 Subject: IIfx SIMMS Message-ID: Not sure about the FX, but the CI had a parity option available for the feds, because they demanded it. Almost every CI you see (commercial stock), though, doesn't have parity checking and ignores parity. Possibly same thing with the FX. Scott Quinn From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 29 19:41:51 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050929190457.00005641@brass> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > Yeah, but at some point computers from the post-1994 period will be > > interesting, or in the very least, certain ones. Most everything from > > Apple post iMac (including the iMac itself) is interesting already. > > I would argue that anything pre iMac from Apple is also quite > interesting. There are lots of quirks and nightmarish in some of the > middle year Macs that keep the architecture interesting. There's also a I don't agree that crap makes something classic, vintage, or worth preserving. > interesting. It would be cool to try to build a complete collection of > ALL the Macs in their original configurations. (I have kept one of my > SE/30's 'stock' for that purpose.) Where shall I send the pallet to? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 29 19:42:51 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FPGA PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20050929201244.01bde3b0@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Douglas Taylor wrote: > I found this interesting bit of work on the web, it is a college project to > create a PDP-11 on a chip; look at the link: > > > http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/pop11.html > > > Why did he pick PDP-11/40 model? Maybe because that's what they had in their lab? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 29 19:39:29 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:39:29 -0600 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <433C8941.2070805@jetnet.ab.ca> Liam Proven wrote: > It's hardly a 32-bit mutitasking GUI-based RISC machine, though, is it? :-) Well I've never heard of any RISC machines with built in GUI logic. Who made it? Ben alias woodelf From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Sep 29 19:53:37 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (compoobah at valleyimplants.com) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:53:37 -0500 Subject: Hobbyist VMS Message-ID: >>Gil Carrick wrote: >>I've got the space & the bandwidth. Two things: 1) what is a good package to >>download in bulk under XP? 2) The site does not load very fast. Is it on a >>high speed link? >If you try to download in bulk you are likely to >find the system gone in short order. I know the >guy that is currently maintaining the system. >-- >Eric Dittman >dittman at dittman.net I never suggested a blind mirror, I just didn't talk to the site operator because a "mirror" to a dialup computer is completely pointless except for archival purposes (I do have Jagubox archived because it's so hard to find now). Perhaps an arrangement could be worked out to mirror it over a period of time or PostOfficeNet DVDs - who knows? There was a time after Wisniewski's death that it wasn't around, and it would be a shame if it went down for good without any mirrors. From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Sep 29 19:58:08 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:58:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <20050930003046.39FB673029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: > I would be surprised if the portable fake aquarium came from anywhere > *other* than America. Japan? They are masters at making useless crap. To be honest, I do not have a problem with USB. It has always worked properly for me. Plus, it is much easier to plug USB in blindly than a D shell. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Sep 29 19:59:11 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:59:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <20050929150350.10878.qmail@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I'm sure I'll wind up with egg on my face here, but I > can't imagine the setting in which a Peanut is > communicating with a mainframe. Maybe a former CEO of > Planter's had one on his desk? I know, I shouldn't > quit my day job. Ulikely, yes, but I a desperate for a reason. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 29 20:04:01 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:04:01 -0700 Subject: FPGA PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20050929201244.01bde3b0@pop.starpower.net> References: <6.0.1.1.0.20050929201244.01bde3b0@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: At 8:14 PM -0400 9/29/05, Douglas Taylor wrote: >I found this interesting bit of work on the web, it is a college >project to create a PDP-11 on a chip; look at the link: > >http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/pop11.html > > >Why did he pick PDP-11/40 model? > >Doug It's worth noting that they're also working on a VAX-11/780 implementation. http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/ It's interesting to note, based on the pictures, they might be emulating RK05's using the IDE HD. As such it might possible to run something other than Unix on this. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Sep 29 20:18:25 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:18:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200509300136.VAA18148@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > There are 2 specific places I don't use [compact fluorescent lights] > -- one is over the lathe (I am worried about a possible stroboscopic > effect making the machine appear stationary when it's not) I actually wouldn't worry about that, for two reasons: (1) they have a relatively long "on" time (partly the long-persistence phosphor, partly the width of the mains voltage peak), and thus a rotating lathe, even if rotating at a multiple of the strobe rate, will look blurred rather than stationary, and (2) anyone who depends solely on the appearance of the moving parts to tell whether a lathe is on is so stupid as to have no business near power machinery in the first place (look at the power switch, listen for the motor, find a smooth rotating part and touch it lightly, the ways to tell are legion). I even went so far as to try this. I turned out everything but one compact fluorescent and got out my (variable-speed) electric drill. The chuck has three holes for the chuck key and thus should "appear stationary" when spinning at 20 rps (1200rpm, the drill's rated top end) - remember I'm on 60Hz mains power. :) No matter how I fiddled with it, I couldn't see any trace of the strobe effect, not even the sort I'd expect if it were spinning at half speed and I'd thus see two ghosts instead of one steady copy. Just blur. I also can usually see strobe effects when I wave my hand fast in front of flickering lights like large areas of white on a CRT. I was unable to produce more than the barest trace of that effect with the compact fluorescent. Still, if it makes you more comfortable.... :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Sep 29 20:55:04 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:55:04 -0500 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: <20050929190457.00005641@brass> Message-ID: <20050929205504.00001f17@brass> On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > > Yeah, but at some point computers from the post-1994 period will be > > > interesting, or in the very least, certain ones. Most everything from > > > Apple post iMac (including the iMac itself) is interesting already. > > > > I would argue that anything pre iMac from Apple is also quite > > interesting. There are lots of quirks and nightmarish in some of the > > middle year Macs that keep the architecture interesting. There's also a > > I don't agree that crap makes something classic, vintage, or worth > preserving. > 'Classic' and 'vintage' are marketing weasel words. A serious computer conservator wants to preserve all the warts and bugs of the original. > > interesting. It would be cool to try to build a complete collection of > > ALL the Macs in their original configurations. (I have kept one of my > > SE/30's 'stock' for that purpose.) > > Where shall I send the pallet to? If you have a time machine, load it into that. There will be somebody eagerly waiting at the other end fourty years from now. I guarantee it. All that will have been 'preserved' are what were perceived as the 'good' bits by the casual hobbyists. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Sep 29 20:58:43 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:58:43 -0500 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050929205843.00003299@brass> On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 01:29:12 +0100 Liam Proven wrote: > On 30/09/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > My Tandy Pocket Computer (a PC-8) still has the same battery in it that > > it did when I bought it used. Granted, I don't hammer away at it > > extensively, but I've coded in BASIC programs to factor numbrers to > > their primes and various other tasks and fooled with it enough. I am > > talking about a machine as thin as a light-duty calculator which uses a > > coin battery. I've owned it personally for more than four years now and > > it STILL has the same battery. And it has retained my BASIC programs > > that long. > > OK, I'm impressed, I have to admit it. > > It's hardly a 32-bit mutitasking GUI-based RISC machine, though, is it? :-) > Nope. It's a Tandy Pocket Computer. It has a one line LCD display. It's highly non-buzzword compliant. I mean, you program it in BASIC for God's sake. I think it has 4K of memory. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 29 21:01:30 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 22:01:30 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( Message-ID: <0INL00F7VXJJ5HE2@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: PalmOS no more? :( > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:12:40 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 01:51:44 +0100 >Liam Proven wrote: > >> On 28/09/05, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> >> 40h use? I flat-out don't believe you. That's /use/ - not standby >> time, which is many *months*. We're talking 2 *days* of *continuous* >> operation. My PX8 killed the last two set of batteries from use and all. With a good set I expect something like 14-16 hours of continous use. The best use of it was some data logging where it would take a few reading via serial port every few minutes for as long as the batteries lasted. With the sleep function that was just over three weeks of data. They had planned to use at the time a fairly decent laptop and two marine batteries for that. >My Tandy Pocket Computer (a PC-8) still has the same battery in it that >it did when I bought it used. Granted, I don't hammer away at it >extensively, but I've coded in BASIC programs to factor numbrers to >their primes and various other tasks and fooled with it enough. I am >talking about a machine as thin as a light-duty calculator which uses a >coin battery. I've owned it personally for more than four years now and >it STILL has the same battery. And it has retained my BASIC programs >that long. I have the proto for a PC8 or similar only it's not pretty package but still after 23 years its functional and all it needs for power is a few AA cells. However the portable on batteries death match goes to the Tandy M100 and friends. It's both good on batteries and uses cells available anywhere. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 29 21:04:45 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 22:04:45 -0400 Subject: FPGA PDP-11 Message-ID: <0INL0011FXOYKNC1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: FPGA PDP-11 > From: Douglas Taylor > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:14:44 -0400 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >I found this interesting bit of work on the web, it is a college project to >create a PDP-11 on a chip; look at the link: > > >http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/pop11.html > > >Why did he pick PDP-11/40 model? It was one of the higher performing models. whats significant is the IDE, serial as well as MMU were included. However I prefer my DEC310s (40pin dip LSI-11). Allison From wacarder at earthlink.net Thu Sep 29 21:07:28 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 22:07:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ASR-33 Restoration Message-ID: <32667285.1128046048345.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I recently acquired three ASR-33 teletypes in various conditions. It looks like two of them are complete and one has been scavenged slightly for parts, but appears to be mostly there. I would like to restore at least one and hopefully two of them. I have the technical manual, which I have started reading. I've also googled and found various sites with info, including previous discussions here on CCTALK. Does anyone have any pointers or good reference sites on testing and bringing one of these things back to life? I want to start at ground zero. One of the TTYs seems to power up fine and the motors run, but I can't get the keyboard to type in local mode. The keys don't press down all the way. The shipping bolt was not in place when these were shipped, and I know they were picked up and tilted and moved around, so things inside may be out of alignment. All three have the phone dialer options installed on the right hand side. I don't intend to use the phone dialers, but it would be interesting to have one cleaned up for show. I have another good ASR-33 working and hooked up to my PDP-11/40 on a 20mA DZ11 connection. Any advice is appreciated. In the meantime, I am going to continue surfing for information and reading the technical manual. Thanks, Ashley From vcf at siconic.com Thu Sep 29 21:18:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:18:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050929205504.00001f17@brass> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > I don't agree that crap makes something classic, vintage, or worth > > preserving. > > 'Classic' and 'vintage' are marketing weasel words. They also happen to describe the charter of this mailing list. Go figure, eh? > A serious computer conservator wants to preserve all the warts and bugs > of the original. Sure, but only if the original is worth preserving in the first place. > If you have a time machine, load it into that. There will be somebody > eagerly waiting at the other end fourty years from now. I guarantee it. > All that will have been 'preserved' are what were perceived as the > 'good' bits by the casual hobbyists. My "time machine" costs me $.80/sqft. I can't afford that for the next 40 years ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Sep 29 21:27:31 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 22:27:31 -0400 Subject: transputers In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:57:24 EDT." <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557830D30@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <200509300227.j8U2RViv006158@mwave.heeltoe.com> Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: >Come to my website at http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer. I havent set up >a ST20 site yet, but what are you looking for? Datasheets, etc, etc.. Mostly just experiences with writing asm code for them... speed tips, etc... -brad From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Sep 29 21:33:03 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:33:03 -0700 Subject: DEC Flip Chip book Message-ID: I am surprised no one has bid on my 1966-67 DEC Flip Chip Logic Handbook on eBay, item 5295648822, about 15 hours to go. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Sep 29 21:42:47 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:42:47 -0500 Subject: DEC Flip Chip book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050929214051.0ad5e680@localhost> I have one too. You'll have to tell me if it sells. Mine is the digitial Logic handbook, with "Flip Chip(tm) modules" printed across the photo on the front cover, 1966-67 edition. Been wondering what to do with it. At 07:33 PM 9/29/2005 -0700, you wrote: >I am surprised no one has bid on my 1966-67 DEC Flip Chip Logic Handbook on >eBay, item 5295648822, about 15 hours to go. > >Paxton >-- >Paxton Hoag >Astoria, OR >USA [Criticism] On an occasion of this kind it becomes more than a moral duty to speak one's mind. It becomes a pleasure. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 29 22:10:45 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:10:45 -0700 Subject: DEC Flip Chip book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:33 PM -0700 9/29/05, Paxton Hoag wrote: >I am surprised no one has bid on my 1966-67 DEC Flip Chip Logic Handbook on >eBay, item 5295648822, about 15 hours to go. Well, if I didn't already have a copy... Somehow I'll be surprised if you don't get at least a couple bids in the last 60 seconds. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From tponsford at theriver.com Thu Sep 29 22:17:29 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:17:29 -0700 Subject: DEC Flip Chip book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <433CAE49.1040508@theriver.com> Hi All, I realize that this is NOT the proper venue for pursuing this, and I apologize to the list before hand, however as this has to do with a persons credibility, and doing business with people on this list, it is definitely on-topic. Last March I had a fairly large lot of IBM XT and AT parts from some 5150's and clones picked up at an auction. I had no use for them but looked for a good home for them. Several of the items were somewhat rare and maybe even semi-valuable, as I received quite a few responses from people on the list that were looking for these same parts! I decided to cut down the hassle factor by giving away the stuff to the person who would take the whole kit and caboodle! There only cost would be re-reimbursing me for the UPS shipping cost, approximately $30.00. The person who agreed to this, received the shipment, and then complained to me about the rough handling by UPS, then totally reneged on the shipping costs, despite several polite reminders. I decided not to pursue this as it is not worth my time and effort. I have given away for free, various items using this list and off-list. About 98 percent of the people I have dealt with have no problem sending me the money promptly after I have paid the shipping upfront. Unfortunately this person IS NOT one of them. Just a word of caution. Credibility on this list is, IMHO, worth more than any Ebay sales effort. Respectfully, Tom ++++++++++++++++++++ Paxton Hoag wrote: >I am surprised no one has bid on my 1966-67 DEC Flip Chip Logic Handbook on >eBay, item 5295648822, about 15 hours to go. > >Paxton >-- >Paxton Hoag >Astoria, OR >USA > > > > From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Sep 29 22:25:32 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:25:32 -0400 Subject: FPGA PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <6.0.1.1.0.20050929201244.01bde3b0@pop.starpower.net> References: <6.0.1.1.0.20050929201244.01bde3b0@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: On 9/29/05, Douglas Taylor wrote: > I found this interesting bit of work on the web, it is a college project to > create a PDP-11 on a chip; look at the link: > > > http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/pop11.html > > > Why did he pick PDP-11/40 model? I probably know why they chose PDP-11/40, because I chose PDP-11/40 before I found their work. The reason why I chose PDP-11/40 is because UNIX V6 runs on PDP-11/40 and there is a very good book about the UNIX V6 source code hacking (written by an Australian I believe). Sure, I abandoned the plan to create a PDP-11/40 to focus on other projects. vax, 9000 > > Doug > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 29 23:39:50 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050929213901.R7056@shell.lmi.net> > > > I guess it's intended for those late-night surfing sessions, when > > > your, uhh, _neck_ gets really stiff. > > > > Presumably if you use it a bit lower down, then a certain organ _gets_ > > really stiff :-) > On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Oh, so you've used one? > ;) A USB powered massager is a sillier toy than using your Palm. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Sep 30 00:18:07 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 22:18:07 -0700 Subject: DEC Flip Chip book In-Reply-To: <433CAE49.1040508@theriver.com> References: <433CAE49.1040508@theriver.com> Message-ID: Sorry Tom you are right, I am behind in my payment. When the box was delivered by UPS it was highly damaged, missing packing materials and with boards and chips falling out. I communicated with you, filed a claim with UPS and decided to wait and see what they said. Reviewing my records it looks like UPS never got back to me and I never followed up. Unfortunatly out of site was out of mind. Tis my fault. I offered paypal at the time, but you said no. I can offer that again or will get a MO out as planned. Please contact me privately with what I should do. My credability is important to me too. I have supplied a lot of equipment to this group at very reasonable prices. Paxton Astoria, Oregon -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 29 14:06:59 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:06:59 -0700 Subject: PCjr (Was Re: IBM PC hacking) In-Reply-To: <200509291633.JAA05390@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200509291633.JAA05390@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200509291206590232.1F8539C1@10.0.0.252> On 9/29/2005 at 9:33 AM Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I don't think the early PC's used DMA for the hard disk. >The HD controllers usually had sector or track buffers. >The program would wait until the buffer was full and >then just move it by software to memory. The floppies >needed DMA because the controllers didn't buffer more >than one byte. The processor would have had to dedicate >it self to the one task without interrupts. PC's went away from DMA in the AT, but the XT used DMA channel 3. The XT implemented only a two-sector buffer, so DMA for multiple sector reads made sense (on the controller board itself, double-buffering was used). The XT controllers were (the 10 MB controller was different from the 20MB one) a peculiar beast with a bunch of proprietary LSI. When the AT version was implemented, the Western Digital type (WD1000) of controller design was used, with (faster than DMA) programmed I/O transfers. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 29 14:14:41 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:14:41 -0700 Subject: identifying PC Simms In-Reply-To: <200509290541.BAA12783@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <007401c5c499$2aa8e7c0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> <010b01c5c49f$f97166d0$0500fea9@game> <200509282353000765.2C901E64@smtp.comcast.net> <200509290541.BAA12783@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200509291214410206.1F8C4658@10.0.0.252> On 9/29/2005 at 1:35 AM der Mouse wrote: >> Is there any not-to-painless way to figure out what I've got? Take a look at the individual DRAM chips and see if you can figure the size of the SIMM from those--these SIMMs were either 8 or 9 bits wide, BTW. I beliee that most PCs could make use of the added parity bit, while Macs didn't care if it was present. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 29 18:40:05 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:40:05 -0700 Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200509291640050460.207F3EE0@10.0.0.252> >Actually, I use compact fluorescents almost everywhere (I prefer the >higher apparent colour temperature). There are 2 specific places I don't >use them -- one is over the lathe (I am worried about a possible >stroboscopic effect making the machine appear stationary when it's not) >and the second is in the darkroom (they have a significantly long >afterglow after being turned off -- several minutes -- which is a right >pain there). Many compact fluorescents use a 30-40Khz AC power source, so stroboscopic effects may not be a problem unless your lathe's chuck rotates at a VERY high speed. You can also make use of standard bi-pin fluorescent lamps with a fixture that uses an active (high-frequency) ballast. For your darkroom, you might want to look into the multiple-white-LED mains-powered spotlights. Ebay is full of sellers eager to unload them. I constructed a music stand lamp using three 14" CCFLs (surplus LCD backlight parts). While not as bright as the 150w halogen lamp it replaces, the quality of illumination is far superior--and I don't worry about burning my sheet music, although some of it might well benefit from such a treatment... Cheers, Chuck From trag at io.com Thu Sep 29 21:19:49 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 21:19:49 -0500 Subject: identifying PC Simms In-Reply-To: <200509291700.j8TH0cVt099376@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509291700.j8TH0cVt099376@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 23:53:00 -0400 >From: "Joe Stevenson" >I have 16 30-pin simms left over from various past incarnations of >my PCs, and I'm > trying to figure out what I've got. > I no longer have a motherboard to test them, so I have no idea what is what. > >Is there any not-to-painless way to figure out what I've got? Not all that painless, but the only way I know that works... Take a SIMM. Count the number of chips. Find the model markings on one of the chips. There are usually two or three lines of writing on a chip. One of these will be a date or batch code and is irrelevant. The line you want will start with a one, two or three (usually two) character manufacturer code (e.g., K or KM for Samsung, TC for Toshiba, M(numeral)M for Mitsubishi, HM or HN for Hitachi, etc.), followed by some longish, about four to eight, alphanumeric code which is mostly numerals, then a dash or space and a speed number in nanoseconds, which may or may not have the trailing zero truncated. For example: HM5116400BS-8, MSM511000C-7, KM44C16100B-5, TC514400AJ-6. Then go to a datasheet archive such as and enter the part number in the search field. It often helps to truncate the trailing characters back to the first number in the body. E.g. HM5116400, MSM511000, KM44C16100, etc. The datasheet will tell you the capacity and organization of the chip. For example, a 1 MB 30 pin SIMM with eight chips on it will be composed of 1M X 1 chips. These have one million addresses with 1 bit at each address. Eight of them working in parallel provide 1 million addresses with eight bits at each address or 1 megabyte. Multiply the total capacity of the chip by the number of chips on the SIMM. Remember that you're working with bits here, not bytes. Divide by 8 and you've got the capacity in megabytes--except... Some SIMMs are parity SIMM and they are based on 9 bits of data rather than 8 bits of data, so you'll need to divide that capacity by 9, not by eight for a parity SIMM. A 30 pin parity SIMM will have nine or three chips instead of eight or two, so they're fairly easy to identify. However, a three chip 30 pin SIMM will have two chips with a certain capacity and a third chip with 1/4 the capacity or either of the other two. In this case, calculate the total capacity of the two larger chips and divide by eight. Or find the capacity in bits of one big chip and divide by four. In most cases, if the SIMM has eight or nine chips, then the capacity in bytes is equal to the number of addresses any of the chips supports (see the datasheet). If the SIMM has three chips, then the capacity in bytes is still equal to the number of address which any of the three chips supports. For example, you find a three chip SIMM with two 4M X 4 chips and one 4M X 1 chip on board. The capacity of this SIMM is 4MB or 4 Megabytes. You find a SIMM with eight or nine 4M X 1 chips on board, its capacity is also 4MB. The real trick is figureing out the capacity of the chips from the markings on them. Google searches sometimes help, but often (almost always) just lead you to chip distributers spamming the search engine space with part numbers to lead part searches to their sites. They often don't even have the chip in question, and rarely have any useful information available on their website. SIMMs that can steer you wrong are composite SIMMs where groups of smaller capacity chips are used to build a higher capacity SIMM. For example, building a 16 MB 30 pin SIMM out of eight 4M X 4 chips. These are rare and should be easily identified because there should be a non-memory chip on board to handle the address translations. Jeff Walther From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Thu Sep 29 22:03:14 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:03:14 -0400 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <433C854D.7080502@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050929102720.03a99b68@mail.30below.com> <6.2.5.4.2.20050929112453.0331ea48@boff-net.dhs.org> <20050929185745.00001654@brass> <433C854D.7080502@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6.2.5.4.2.20050929225902.032e81c0@boff-net.dhs.org> bloody hell, the input and output ports are very dangerous and thus rarely used/ill advised. the possum computer will be/was short lived and had a life span of about a yugo. existing and working models are as rare as finding an apple lisa, serial number 1. supposedly supports USB devices with a port of the Windows 95C OS. bwahahahahaha... ...grin, good comeback from my comments though. =) -John Boffemmyer IV At 08:22 PM 9/29/2005, you wrote: >Scott Stevens wrote: > >>I read that and it translated '"beverly hillbillies" class' for some >>reason. Then I started trying to visual a butter churn peripheral, or >>anything 'possum related. >Hmm a Possum powered puter ... no worse than the USB stuff sold. :) > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.8/113 - Release Date: 9/27/2005 > > > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.8/113 - Release Date: 9/27/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.8/113 - Release Date: 9/27/2005 From jhoger at pobox.com Fri Sep 30 01:12:56 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:12:56 -0700 Subject: model 100 backup nicad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1128060776.20410.69.camel@aragorn> On Thu, 2005-09-29 at 20:14 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > As you probably know there is a rechargeable nicad on the M100 board > > that backs up the RAM. These unfortunately do conk out eventually > > barfing battery acid onto the board. > > \begin{pedant} > > It's a NiCd, it therefore leak battery _alkali_ > > \end{pedant} > > -tony > > Yes, thanks next time I'll just say corrosive juice :-) -- John. From alexeyt at freeshell.org Fri Sep 30 01:19:48 2005 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 06:19:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: transputers In-Reply-To: <200509300227.j8U2RViv006158@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200509300227.j8U2RViv006158@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Brad Parker wrote: > Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: >> Come to my website at http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer. I havent set up >> a ST20 site yet, but what are you looking for? Datasheets, etc, etc.. > > Mostly just experiences with writing asm code for them... speed tips, etc... Speaking of transputers, I've been wanting to get something of this architecture for a long time. Unfortunately they don't seem to come up too often on ebay, and when they do it's usually single chips or single chip interface boards. Do you guys have any idea where I should look to get at least a 4 transputer board? Alexey From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Sep 30 04:26:05 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 11:26:05 +0200 Subject: YATYRD (was: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: <20050929002447.L640@fiche.wps.com> from "Tom Jennings" at Sep 29, 5 00:29:16 am Message-ID: <433D20CD.21400.D85E6170@localhost> Am 29 Sep 2005 20:38 meinte Tony Duell: > > Eh. Dump the 10 year rule and cut off at 1994. > > At some point post-1990 computers became near-pure commodity. It's > > like collecting toasters. There are intersting models, but not in > > the way that say 1960s or even 1970s are -- pretty much ANY > > computer from the 70s and even 80s is "interesting". Pretty much > > anything post-MSDOS is deadly dull -- with exceptions of course. > I think you've 'hit the nail on the head'. > But there really is nothing special about 99% of Wintel boxes. See, but the remaining 1% is what I realy like. And as tighter the 'Standard' became, as more interesting are the ways designer tried to add something that would make their work worthwhile. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at siemens.com Fri Sep 30 04:31:30 2005 From: Hans.Franke at siemens.com (Hans Franke) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 11:31:30 +0200 Subject: PET help In-Reply-To: <5736e825050929134112dcdb91@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <433D2212.3629.D863569A@localhost> Am 29 Sep 2005 14:41 meinte Star Master: > I recently acquired through the generous efforts of a member here, a > Commodore PET 2001-32B. It boots up to just garbage characters on the > screen. Any quick things I can check or a 'suspect' part? It's a PET, so first thing is just to press back all chips firm into their sockets. Solves 98% of all Commodore problems. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 7.0 am 29/30.April und 01.Mai 2006 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From fryers at gmail.com Fri Sep 30 05:13:48 2005 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 11:13:48 +0100 Subject: Fluke 702 Calibrator Schematic Message-ID: All, Does anyone have or have access to a schematic for a Fluke 702 Calibrator? One has come my way that has emitted smoke from a couple of power supply components. The offending board has the details: Power Supply Assy 938279 Fluke - 700 - 3001 Rev G According to the power supply board, this is 1994 vintage - so just on topic. For those that are interested, the CPU appears to be a XC68306FC16. Thanks. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From bqt at Update.UU.SE Fri Sep 30 05:58:03 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:58:03 +0200 (CEST) Subject: FPGA PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200509300329.j8U3Sci1010006@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509300329.j8U3Sci1010006@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:14:44 -0400 > From: Douglas Taylor > Subject: FPGA PDP-11 > Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20050929201244.01bde3b0 at pop.starpower.net> > > I found this interesting bit of work on the web, it is a college project to > create a PDP-11 on a chip; look at the link: > > > http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/pop11.html > > > Why did he pick PDP-11/40 model? Probably because it's a fairly simple and straight PDP-11, having more or less the clean original design combined with an MMU, without any of the later tricky stuff that would cause lots of more problems. > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:42:51 -0700 (PDT) > From: Vintage Computer Festival > Subject: Re: FPGA PDP-11 > Message-ID: > > On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Douglas Taylor wrote: > > > I found this interesting bit of work on the web, it is a college project to > > create a PDP-11 on a chip; look at the link: > > > > > > http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/pop11.html > > > > > > Why did he pick PDP-11/40 model? > > Maybe because that's what they had in their lab? Could be. > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:04:01 -0700 > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Subject: Re: FPGA PDP-11 > Message-ID: > > At 8:14 PM -0400 9/29/05, Douglas Taylor wrote: > >I found this interesting bit of work on the web, it is a college > >project to create a PDP-11 on a chip; look at the link: > > > >http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/pop11.html > > > > > >Why did he pick PDP-11/40 model? > > > >Doug > > It's worth noting that they're also working on a VAX-11/780 implementation. > > http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/ Yikes! If they would pull that off, it would be interesting... I wonder how feasible it is, though. > It's interesting to note, based on the pictures, they might be > emulating RK05's using the IDE HD. As such it might possible to run > something other than Unix on this. Hmm... 11/40 and RK05... The theory about 6ed Unix don't sound that far fetched... > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 22:04:45 -0400 > From: Allison > Subject: Re: FPGA PDP-11 > Message-ID: <0INL0011FXOYKNC1 at vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > > > > >Subject: FPGA PDP-11 > > From: Douglas Taylor > > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 20:14:44 -0400 > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > > >I found this interesting bit of work on the web, it is a college project to > >create a PDP-11 on a chip; look at the link: > > > > > >http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/pop11.html > > > > > >Why did he pick PDP-11/40 model? > > It was one of the higher performing models. whats significant is the > IDE, serial as well as MMU were included. Um. No, actually the 11/40 is pretty low performance. It's basically a 2nd generation PDP-11. EIS was still very optional, and usually not included. You have 18-bit mode, but no split I&D space, no supervisor mode or anything else fancy. Also, no FPP available. You did have the FIS option, though. Might you be thinking of the 11/45 with variations? > However I prefer my DEC310s (40pin dip LSI-11). :-) > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:25:32 -0400 > From: 9000 VAX > Subject: Re: FPGA PDP-11 > Message-ID: > > > On 9/29/05, Douglas Taylor wrote: > > I found this interesting bit of work on the web, it is a college project to > > create a PDP-11 on a chip; look at the link: > > > > > > http://shimizu-lab.dt.u-tokai.ac.jp/pop11.html > > > > > > Why did he pick PDP-11/40 model? > > I probably know why they chose PDP-11/40, because I chose PDP-11/40 > before I found their work. The reason why I chose PDP-11/40 is because > UNIX V6 runs on PDP-11/40 and there is a very good book about the UNIX > V6 source code hacking (written by an Australian I believe). Sure, I > abandoned the plan to create a PDP-11/40 to focus on other projects. Good point. Having something to run on the hardware is desireable. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Sep 30 07:15:01 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 08:15:01 -0400 Subject: PET help Message-ID: <20050930121459.JBZS10461.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 14:41 29/09/2005 -0600, you wrote: >I recently acquired through the generous efforts of a member here, a >Commodore PET 2001-32B. It boots up to just garbage characters on the >screen. Any quick things I can check or a 'suspect' part? Also if anyone >knows where I can obtain a schematic for this beauty, please let me know! "Most everything" about the PET is at: http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm "Garbage" characters at startup usually mean the machine isn't clearing the screen, which is part of it's startup initialization. Possible causes - The processor isn't running... Look for apropriate 6502 clocks. You should see a fetch to the top of memory (FFFC-FFFD) as the first access (CPU fetches reset vector), and then fetches at whatever address is stored there. - The code is invalid... See notes on PET ROMs below. Could also be a bad buffer etc. If the ROMs are correct, then look at each data line to insure that it is making it all the way back to the processor. - The processor is "crashing" before it gets there. Most likely cause bad-RAM (stack failure). - The code is getting "hung up" waiting for something --- not much happens before the screen clear, but it might be this ... if so, you should be able to scope the address lines and see the code sitting in a tight loop - you should also be able to figure out what it's polling (read address) and using the schematics, memory maps, listing etc (avail from funet) you can figure out what is wrong. (I had one unit which hung polling a bad 6521). I've repaired about 1/2 dozen different PETs over the last couple of years, and here's what I found (in rough order of most common to least common): #1 - Bad connections, ROM sockets and power connector to mainboard (some level of this in almost all the machines I worked on) #2 - Bad 2114 SRAMs (3-4 instances of this - also in 2040/4040s) #3 - Bad 4116 DRAMs (3-4 instances of this) #4 - Bad ROMs (2 instances of this) ** #5 - Bad 6521 (1 instance of this) ** ROMS: You can get the ROM images from funet - Exact compatible EPROM devices to the commodore ROMs are tough to find - If you are lucky (as I was in one instance), and the bad ROM is the Edit ROM, which is only a 2K device, you can actually replace it with a 2116 (It doesn't quite line up - (IIRC it gets SELECT on OE, and SELECT gets driven by an address line which is low for the 2K "bottom half" of the socket range where the Edit ROM lives) but it's "good enough" to work). For the 4K device I replaced, I had to make a little daughter card (see photo in my PET section). I checked the ROMs by making an adapter to read them in my homebuilt programmer as 2732s, and compared the results to the ROMs from another PET (you can use the images from funet). Depending on which version of the ROMs you have, you may be able to get into an internal monitor by pulling down the DIAG line - but I think the screen clears before it is checked - again, you can find the pinouts on funet. I also have complete scans of the 2001 manuals posted on my site which shows the I/O ports and pinouts. Good luck! Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From CPUMECH at aol.com Fri Sep 30 08:02:49 2005 From: CPUMECH at aol.com (CPUMECH at aol.com) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 09:02:49 EDT Subject: ASR-33 Restoration Message-ID: <1d4.457df741.306e9179@aol.com> HI Ashley, the 33ASR you mentioned is actually a TWX machine if it has a phone dialer option & it has 4 rows of keys on the keybd. The "H" lever is probably out of it's slot, causing the keybd. not to reset. I would start there. Larry From lproven at gmail.com Fri Sep 30 08:28:08 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:28:08 +0100 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <433C8941.2070805@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> <433C8941.2070805@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <575131af0509300628j1ce2d7d3k@mail.gmail.com> On 30/09/05, woodelf wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > > It's hardly a 32-bit mutitasking GUI-based RISC machine, though, is it? :-) > Well I've never heard of any RISC machines with built in GUI logic. > Who made it? Ben alias woodelf OK, then, since you are determined to mis-parse my sentence, "a 32-bit RISC-based GUI machine". :?) The processor is a 16MHz ARM710T. -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Fri Sep 30 08:27:53 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 09:27:53 -0400 Subject: transputers Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557830D47@cpexchange.olf.com> Well, it would also help if you told us what version (model) of the ST20 it is? Is it the ST20450 (a true transputer model) or the later stripped down sequential versions. What tools are you using (compilers, etc)... Thanks, Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: Brad Parker [mailto:brad at heeltoe.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 10:28 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: transputers > > > > Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > >Come to my website at http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer. > I havent > >set up a ST20 site yet, but what are you looking for? > Datasheets, etc, > >etc.. > > Mostly just experiences with writing asm code for them... > speed tips, etc... > > -brad > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 30 08:46:58 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 08:46:58 Subject: DEC Flip Chip book In-Reply-To: <433CAE49.1040508@theriver.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050930084658.3e270456@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:17 PM 9/29/05 -0700, Tom wrote: >Hi All, > >I realize that this is NOT the proper venue for pursuing this, and I >apologize to the list before hand, however >as this has to do with a persons credibility, and doing business with >people on this list, it is definitely on-topic. > >Last March I had a fairly large lot of IBM XT and AT parts from some >5150's and clones picked up at an auction. >I had no use for them but looked for a good home for them. Several of >the items were somewhat rare and maybe even >semi-valuable, as I received quite a few responses from people on the >list that were looking for these same parts! > >I decided to cut down the hassle factor by giving away the stuff to the >person who would take the whole kit and caboodle! >There only cost would be re-reimbursing me for the UPS shipping cost, >approximately $30.00. The person who agreed to this, >received the shipment, and then complained to me about the rough >handling by UPS, then totally reneged on the shipping costs, >despite several polite reminders. I decided not to pursue this as it is >not worth my time and effort. > >I have given away for free, various items using this list and off-list. >About 98 percent of the people I have dealt with have no problem >sending me the money promptly after I have paid the shipping upfront. >Unfortunately this person IS NOT one of them. > >Just a word of caution. Credibility on this list is, IMHO, worth more >than any Ebay sales effort. This is one reason that it's more effective to just sell the stuff on E-bay. If there's any problems then you can use E-bay's procedures to handle them. If you sell privately, you're own your own. I hate to say it but I've sold stuff to several people on this list that have never paid for it. I've also held stuff for people on this list that never made arrangements to pick it. AND I've loaned stuff to people on this list and never seen it again. If some of you wonder why I haven't replied to your "I'd like to have this" messages that's why (plus I just get too busy sometimes). If I have something that I don't want and someone else wants it and sends me a SERIOUS "I'd like to buy this" message then I'll take it seriously but all too many of the messages fall into the "I won't mind having this but I'm not serious about it and you can send it to me for free" or the "Maybe I'll get around to paying you one day" catagory. Joe From lproven at gmail.com Fri Sep 30 08:32:10 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:32:10 +0100 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050929205843.00003299@brass> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> <20050929205843.00003299@brass> Message-ID: <575131af0509300632od34dbc0s@mail.gmail.com> On 30/09/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > > OK, I'm impressed, I have to admit it. > > > > It's hardly a 32-bit mutitasking GUI-based RISC machine, though, is > it? :-) > > > > Nope. It's a Tandy Pocket Computer. It has a one line LCD display. > It's highly non-buzzword compliant. I mean, you program it in BASIC for > God's sake. I think it has 4K of memory. Not familiar with that one, I'm afraid. May be one of the many machines that didn't really catch on over here. Until the rise of the PC, European microcomputers and American ones evolved in quite different directions - mainly because American ones were too damned expensive for us in the Old World so we used cheaper, more efficient machines. I bought train tickets in Amsterdam in 1990 from a woman using an Atari ST workstation; they were the kit of the whole Centraal station, as far as I could see. I knew labs and businesses as well as schools in Britain entirely based on Acorn 32-bit RISC micros running RISC OS - even the Acorn licensed Unix, RISC-IX, was too expensive. I believe Amigas as well as STs were very widespread in Germany. Serious (& rich, back then) British DTP types used Macs and still do. -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Sep 30 08:45:24 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:45:24 +0100 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050929205843.00003299@brass> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> <20050929205843.00003299@brass> Message-ID: <575131af0509300645x7b5cf19ah@mail.gmail.com> On 30/09/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > Nope. It's a Tandy Pocket Computer. It has a one line LCD display. One of these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandy_Pocket_Computer "Clone" of one of these, it says... http://pocket.free.fr/html/sharp/pc-1246_e.html -- Liam Proven ? http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 30 09:18:29 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:18:29 +0100 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <20050929185254.0000047a@brass> References: <433C583F.4020508@mdrconsult.com> <20050929185254.0000047a@brass> Message-ID: <433D4935.9080407@yahoo.co.uk> Scott Stevens wrote: > On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:10:23 -0500 > [Win95 on floppy] > > Those of us who ever installed Slackware Linux from floppy diskettes > know a somewhat similar experience. Ahh yes, I remember those days with SLS Linux well... except that at least it was easy to download a replacement disk image. Not sure what the situation was with Win95, but I bet it required MS to mail a physical floppy to you to replace a corrupt one... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 30 09:24:05 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:24:05 +0100 Subject: identifying PC Simms In-Reply-To: References: <200509291700.j8TH0cVt099376@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <433D4A85.2000508@yahoo.co.uk> Jeff Walther wrote: > The real trick is figureing out the capacity of the chips from the > markings on them. Google searches sometimes help, but often (almost > always) just lead you to chip distributers spamming the search engine > space with part numbers to lead part searches to their sites. They > often don't even have the chip in question, and rarely have any useful > information available on their website. Usenet archives tend to be better when finding out memory chip capacities IME - luckily the spammers only seem to concentrate on the web side of things. > I beliee that most PCs could make use of the added parity bit, while > Macs didn't care if it was present. (ignoring attributions here I know) Isn't that the other way around? Nearly all PCs I've come across don't care about parity, but the rest of the world always seemed to make use of it. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 30 09:28:01 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:28:01 +0100 Subject: transputers In-Reply-To: References: <200509300227.j8U2RViv006158@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <433D4B71.2080301@yahoo.co.uk> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > Speaking of transputers, I've been wanting to get something of this > architecture for a long time. Unfortunately they don't seem to come up > too often on ebay, and when they do it's usually single chips or single > chip interface boards. Do you guys have any idea where I should look to > get at least a 4 transputer board? Local universities are worth a try - many would have had transputer equipment back in the day, and it may well still be lurking in a cupboard... cheers Jules From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Fri Sep 30 10:19:34 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 11:19:34 -0400 Subject: transputers Message-ID: <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557830D56@cpexchange.olf.com> It also doesn't help when there are about 5 people who are vigourous collectors of transputer stuff (that includes me). This drives the prices up into un-precedented levels. 3 out of the 5 collectors are unbelievably ruthless (that excludes me) when it comes to acquisition on ebay. This makes it difficult for anyone else to obtain one. The large transputer equipments (that are found in universities) is a good place to look, but also a bit difficult at times unless you know someone there. Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: Jules Richardson [mailto:julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk] > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 10:28 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: transputers > > Local universities are worth a try - many would have had transputer > equipment back in the day, and it may well still be lurking > in a cupboard... > > cheers > > Jules > From wacarder at earthlink.net Fri Sep 30 10:34:01 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 11:34:01 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: ASR-33 Restoration Message-ID: <20764748.1128094441431.JavaMail.root@elwamui-wigeon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > HI Ashley, the 33ASR you mentioned is actually a TWX machine if it has a > phone dialer option & it has 4 rows of keys on the keybd. The "H" lever is > probably out of it's slot, causing the keybd. not to reset. I would start there. > Larry Larry, I think these ASR-33s were set up as TWX machines. They can also be set up as computer terminals, can't they? Aren't all the mechanics, etc., the same except for the telephone stuff and the modem stuff that's in the stand? Thanks for the info. I'll take a look at the H Lever. Ashley From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 30 10:37:22 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 08:37:22 -0700 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <575131af0509300632od34dbc0s@mail.gmail.com> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> <20050929205843.00003299@brass> <575131af0509300632od34dbc0s@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 2:32 PM +0100 9/30/05, Liam Proven wrote: >Until the rise of the PC, European microcomputers and American ones >evolved in quite different directions - mainly because American ones >were too damned expensive for us in the Old World so we used cheaper, >more efficient machines. I bought train tickets in Amsterdam in 1990 >from a woman using an Atari ST workstation; they were the kit of the >whole Centraal station, as far as I could see. I knew labs and >businesses as well as schools in Britain entirely based on Acorn >32-bit RISC micros running RISC OS - even the Acorn licensed Unix, >RISC-IX, was too expensive. I believe Amigas as well as STs were very >widespread in Germany. Serious (& rich, back then) British DTP types >used Macs and still do. The interesting thing here is, both the Amiga and the Atari were US computers. Yet, if anything, they were more popular in Europe, especially in the UK and Germany (today most anything for either platform tends to come out of one of these two countries). As for the Acorn, did it ever get exported anywhere? I know they never really made it here to the US. Another good example would be the Sinclair, except for the little Timex-Sinclair system that was out at about the same time as the VIC-20, or a little before, I don't think any Sinclair models made it to the US (I have one, but it came from a list member a few years ago). Sadly for way to long, the US has been either PC or Mac, and this tended to be true, even when the Atari and Amiga were available. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 30 10:37:40 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 08:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Locking ASR32 for transport Message-ID: Grrr, I hate bringing up old topics, but I can't find anything in the archives or on Googl.e I'll be shipping an ASR32 and want to lock the typing unit. I've seen a message from Tony mentioning a "transit screw" that secures the typing unit to the base. Can anyone elaborate? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From fryers at gmail.com Fri Sep 30 10:50:16 2005 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:50:16 +0100 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> <20050929205843.00003299@brass> <575131af0509300632od34dbc0s@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: All, On 9/30/05, Zane H. Healy wrote: [...] > As for the Acorn, did it ever get exported anywhere? The Acorn made it to Australia in small numbers. It was not hugely visible. I only really know about them through a friend. I think he gained his knowledge through his school. Most schools had BBC Micros or Micro Bees before digressing into Wintel territory. It is a shame as I am lead to believe that the Acorn architecture and OS where well engineered. [...] Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Sep 30 11:00:01 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 09:00:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 30, 5 08:37:22 am" Message-ID: <200509301600.JAA14032@floodgap.com> > As for the Acorn, did it ever get exported anywhere? I know they > never really made it here to the US. Another good example would be > the Sinclair, except for the little Timex-Sinclair system that was > out at about the same time as the VIC-20, or a little before, I don't > think any Sinclair models made it to the US (I have one, but it came > from a list member a few years ago). The Beebs did make it here -- there are NTSC BBC units. I've seen one, but the guy wouldn't sell it. (Darn.) As far as T/S units, there's the 1000 (ZX-81), the 1500 (81 on roids), the 2048, basically a 48K ZX Spectrum with better video, and the beautiful but incompatible 2068 which is Spectrum-like but dissimilar from any specific model. So, as I'm sure Glen Goodwin will add, there were more T/S innovations than we give them credit for. Btw, anyone getting rid of a 2068? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I need to clean my toilet brush." -------- From news at computercollector.com Fri Sep 30 11:23:54 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:23:54 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <575131af0509300645x7b5cf19ah@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000d01c5c5db$5a607df0$d153f945@owneriywbc5o7y> That's interesting. Tandy's PC-x series started with the Sharp PC-1211 (PC-1), and they continued OEMing from Sharp until the PC-3. They switched to Casio as the supplier for the PC-4 to PC-7. But I didn't realized until now that they switched back to Sharp for the PC-8. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 9:45 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PalmOS no more? :( On 30/09/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > Nope. It's a Tandy Pocket Computer. It has a one line LCD display. One of these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandy_Pocket_Computer "Clone" of one of these, it says... http://pocket.free.fr/html/sharp/pc-1246_e.html -- Liam Proven . http://livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=lproven AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com . MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk . Skype: liamproven . ICQ: 73187508 From wacarder at earthlink.net Fri Sep 30 11:32:32 2005 From: wacarder at earthlink.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:32:32 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: Locking ASR32 for transport Message-ID: <22581661.1128097952586.JavaMail.root@elwamui-little.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > Sellam said: > > Grrr, I hate bringing up old topics, but I can't find anything in the > archives or on Google > > I'll be shipping an ASR32 and want to lock the typing unit. I've seen a > message from Tony mentioning a "transit screw" that secures the typing > unit to the base. > > Can anyone elaborate? If you look on the outside of the case under the bottom of the keyboard, you will see a hole. You can put a bolt of the correct length and thread size through the hole and it will screw into a hole on a metal part of the tty inside the case. I had an ASR33 shipped with the shipping bolt in place and it worked fine when it arrived at my place. I have had another one that was shipped without the shipping bolt and something inside seems to be out of alignment and the keyboard isn't working. Ashley From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 30 11:34:44 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 17:34:44 +0100 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> <20050929205843.00003299@brass> <575131af0509300632od34dbc0s@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <433D6924.8000402@yahoo.co.uk> Zane H. Healy wrote: > As for the Acorn, did it ever get exported anywhere? I know they never > really made it here to the US. Quite a few models, both 8 and 32 bit (Acorn moved to 32 bit at the time when everyone else was still making 16 bit machines) went to Australia and New Zealand. I'm not sure about "closer to home" though in terms of what was exported to the rest of Europe. The Acorn Atom seems to have had reasonable success in Holland in the form of the Prophet 2. Far as I know, only the Acorn BBC B ever made it to the US though (http://www.nostalgia8.nl/banks/machinelst.htm is a good place to go for an idea of how many Acorn machines *other* than the familiar BBC B were made). I believe the only reason it wasn't successful in the US was down to the following that the Apple 2 had, rather than there being any direct competition in terms of technical merit, performance, available software etc. (it was a fantastic machine, just rather expensive for home users where the educational discounts weren't available) > Another good example would be the > Sinclair, except for the little Timex-Sinclair system that was out at > about the same time as the VIC-20, or a little before, I don't think any > Sinclair models made it to the US (I have one, but it came from a list > member a few years ago). Didn't the ZX81 and the Spectrum make it to the US (both in the form of Timex-badged machines, model numbers of which I forget). You're right though, far as I know the Spectrum +, Spectrum 128, +2, +2A, +3, and the QL were never sold in the States. I'm trying to think of other (reasonably) widespread (within the UK) UK-built machines of the time. I don't think the Dragon machines ever made it out to the US, nor did the Jupiter Ace, or any of Research Machines stuff. As I remember it, pretty much all the home computers owned by people in the UK were either the Sinclair Spectrum, C64, or the BBC B. Later on, people moved to either the Atari ST or the Amiga (Macs and PCs were far too expensive here to justify purchase). On the business scene, both Macs and Amiga hardware did well in the DTP / broadcast industries I suppose, whilst PCs ruled in the larger companies. Smaller businesses were certainly happy doing their accounts and the like on some of the smaller micros though - maybe that's less true of the US? I remember the train timetable / announcement systems still using BBC micros in the UK up until 5 years or so ago, and AFAIK the same was true in some areas of the telephone industry. Perhaps there was more of an attitude of "if it does the job, use it" in the UK compared to the US (where I get the impression that the philosophy was that you're nothing unless you have a Mac or a PC) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 30 11:41:39 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 17:41:39 +0100 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> <20050929205843.00003299@brass> <575131af0509300632od34dbc0s@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <433D6AC3.1040705@yahoo.co.uk> Simon Fryer wrote: > Most schools had BBC Micros > or Micro Bees before digressing into Wintel territory. It is a shame > as I am lead to believe that the Acorn architecture and OS where well > engineered. Acorn were always extremely good on the hardware front, and they certainly got the OS / ROM routines right for the machines up until the ARM-based hardware running RISCOS; after that though personally I feel they lost the plot a little on the software side of it (even though the hardware was still way better than what was going on in the PC world at the time) From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Sep 30 11:48:25 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 11:48:25 -0500 Subject: RS/6000 reference sheet Message-ID: <433D6C59.1000507@mdrconsult.com> We (my company) do a lot of business with an IBM dealer/reseller in San Antonio, TX. Their systems guy sent me this spreadsheet the other day listing *all* the RS6k/pSeries models, basic system info, supported AIX versions, etc. It's not very detailed, but it's the first really complete and coherent listing of models I've ever seen (yes, including the telco variants and switches). He told me this morning I can share it. Sorry about the Excel format. I didn't make it and I haven't had time to export it to something more universal. http://www.docsbox.net/RS6000_Ref.xls Doc From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Sep 30 11:46:53 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 11:46:53 -0500 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> <20050929205843.00003299@brass> <575131af0509300632od34dbc0s@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050930114438.050697b8@mail> At 10:37 AM 9/30/2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: >The interesting thing here is, both the Amiga and the Atari were US computers. Yet, if anything, they were more popular in Europe, especially in the UK and Germany (today most anything for either platform tends to come out of one of these two countries). But CBM and Atari share some history, CBM had strong sales and development ties in Germany, and both machines were trying to appeal to the lower-priced end of the market. - John From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Sep 30 11:52:45 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:52:45 -0400 Subject: transputers In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 30 Sep 2005 09:27:53 EDT." <9A6FF2537AEA484296A3EE4990D18557830D47@cpexchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <200509301652.j8UGqjKg026099@mwave.heeltoe.com> Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: >Well, it would also help if you told us what version (model) of the ST20 it >is? >Is it the ST20450 (a true transputer model) or the later stripped down >sequential versions. What tools are you using (compilers, etc)... Sorry, it's an ST20 C2, which I believe translates to a 5517. I'm using ST's tool chain. -brad From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 30 13:17:22 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 13:17:22 -0500 Subject: RS/6000 reference sheet In-Reply-To: <433D6C59.1000507@mdrconsult.com> References: <433D6C59.1000507@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200509301317.22409.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 30 September 2005 11:48, Doc Shipley wrote: > We (my company) do a lot of business with an IBM dealer/reseller > in San Antonio, TX. Their systems guy sent me this spreadsheet the > other day listing *all* the RS6k/pSeries models, basic system info, > supported AIX versions, etc. It's not very detailed, but it's the > first really complete and coherent listing of models I've ever seen > (yes, including the telco variants and switches). He told me this > morning I can share it. > > Sorry about the Excel format. I didn't make it and I haven't had > time to export it to something more universal. > > http://www.docsbox.net/RS6000_Ref.xls > > > Doc A nice tabellized html version is now available at: http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/ibm/rs6000/RS6000_Ref.html Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Sep 30 14:29:10 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:29:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PET help Message-ID: <200509301929.MAA06014@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Hans Franke" > >Am 29 Sep 2005 14:41 meinte Star Master: > >> I recently acquired through the generous efforts of a member here, a >> Commodore PET 2001-32B. It boots up to just garbage characters on the >> screen. Any quick things I can check or a 'suspect' part? > >It's a PET, so first thing is just to press back all chips >firm into their sockets. Solves 98% of all Commodore problems. > >Gruss >H. > Hi I'll make my standard comment here. Putting DC#4 or similar materials onto pins before putting things back together will make a difference. This is especially true for the power pins that would otherwise tend to over heat because of contact resistance. Dwight From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 30 14:44:45 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:44:45 -0400 Subject: offlist Re: Looking for: BCC180 schematics and.. Message-ID: <0INN00KC4AT1JYO3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Chris, Checked out the multibus cards. I have: 4 IAPX86 cards (8086-2, 512k ram, 8255, serial 8251 and timer.) 1 512k parity ram These were from a MDS 800 someone did a disassembly and scrap on. 1 backplane from MDS800 spare 1 Monitor board from same 1 frontpannel board from same. Allison > >Subject: offlist Re: Looking for: BCC180 schematics and.. > From: Chris M > Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 08:05:45 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >That sounds like something that was published in Byte >years ago. As a matter of fact I'm pretty positive. >Mostly definate. 99% anyway. Provided I have it, would >that solve your problem? > >--- Allison wrote: > >> I'm looking for schematics for MicroMint BCC180 >> rev1. >> >> Also Imagewise V2.0 reciever (ca1987) the earlier >> with DB25 >> connector. Any docs or schematic would help. >> >> Allison >> > > > > >__________________________________ >Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 >http://mail.yahoo.com From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Sep 30 14:50:17 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:50:17 -0400 (edt) Subject: PET help In-Reply-To: <200509301929.MAA06014@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at Sep 30, 05 12:29:10 pm Message-ID: <200509301950.PAA28211@wordstock.com> And thusly Dwight K. Elvey spake: > > Hi > I'll make my standard comment here. Putting > DC#4 or similar materials onto pins before DC#4? What is that? Some sort of contact cleaner? Cheers, Bryan > putting things back together will make a difference. > This is especially true for the power pins that > would otherwise tend to over heat because of > contact resistance. > Dwight > > > From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 30 15:03:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 13:03:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <433D6924.8000402@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Sep 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm trying to think of other (reasonably) widespread (within the UK) > UK-built machines of the time. I don't think the Dragon machines ever > made it out to the US, nor did the Jupiter Ace, or any of Research > Machines stuff. As far as I can tell, the Dragon 32 was sold here (in the U.S.) in normal retail outlets for a while, though on a very limited basis. I got mine from California Digital several years back before they ran out of the rather largish stock they had. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From blarson at blars.org Fri Sep 30 04:55:42 2005 From: blarson at blars.org (Blars Blarson) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 02:55:42 -0700 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <433C0E00.8030009@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050929102720.03a99b68@mail.30below.com> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050929102720.03a99b68@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200509300955.j8U9tg8M006903@renig.nat.blars.org> In article <433C0E00.8030009 at jetnet.ab.ca> you write: >What I want is a REAL OS/9 >machine but I never could afford more than a Coco. Are you interested in a couple of Frank Hogg Labs systems os9/68k systems? One 68000, one 68020. Located in Los Angeles. -- Blars Blarson blarson at blars.org http://www.blars.org/blars.html With Microsoft, failure is not an option. It is a standard feature. From rayplett at mts.net Fri Sep 23 10:13:19 2005 From: rayplett at mts.net (Ray Plett) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:13:19 -0500 Subject: blank paper tape reels wanted Message-ID: <000601c5c051$55d34400$6400a8c0@prclzf8fgo1unu> Just noticed your file on google. Are you still in need of paper tape or more to the point for me , do you still have fan-fold paper tape to get rid of? Ray Plett at mts.net From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Sep 30 15:15:31 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:15:31 -0400 (edt) Subject: blank paper tape reels wanted In-Reply-To: <000601c5c051$55d34400$6400a8c0@prclzf8fgo1unu> from "Ray Plett" at Sep 23, 05 10:13:19 am Message-ID: <200509302015.QAA27285@wordstock.com> And thusly Ray Plett spake: > > Just noticed your file on google. Are you still in need of paper tape or = > more to the point for me , do you still have fan-fold paper tape to get = > rid of?=20 > Ray Plett at mts.net > Why is the date on this message a week old? Cheers, Bryan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Sep 30 15:47:43 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 13:47:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PET help Message-ID: <200509302047.NAA06023@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Bryan It is a type of silicon grease ( NOT heat sink grease ). It is not really a cleaner but unlike petroleum grease, it has vary low film strength. In other words, it is a poor lubricant. When the contacts scrape together, surface oxides are scraped off and the grease protects the new surface from degrading because of air contact. There are similar products sold through hi-fi shops but I've been using DC#4 ( Dow Corning #4 ) for a long time and trust it. You can get it at many electric shops ( you know lighting and wiring ) as well as mail order, like McMaster-Carr. In a pinch I've had good luck with automotive products like SilGlyde grease and other dielectric greases. It is good for most any electrical connector since it is non-conductive. It works best on connection that carry High current, like power supply connectors. It also works well on connectors that have vibration issues, like the RAM pack connected to the back of a Sinclair ZX81. It does lubricate slightly so one should make pins on things like EPROMs at 90 degrees relative to the package, so they don't have spring tension that tend to pop them out of the sockets. This is probably a good idea to do with plastic ROM packages as well for reliability reasons. Stressed pins, from automatic insertion methods, tend to increase the likelihood of pin to chip failure. Dwight >From: "Bryan Pope" > >And thusly Dwight K. Elvey spake: >> >> Hi >> I'll make my standard comment here. Putting >> DC#4 or similar materials onto pins before > >DC#4? What is that? Some sort of contact cleaner? > >Cheers, > >Bryan > > >> putting things back together will make a difference. >> This is especially true for the power pins that >> would otherwise tend to over heat because of >> contact resistance. >> Dwight >> >> >> > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 30 15:48:52 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 13:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PET help In-Reply-To: <200509301950.PAA28211@wordstock.com> References: <200509301950.PAA28211@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20050930134538.F33366@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 30 Sep 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > > I'll make my standard comment here. Putting > > DC#4 or similar materials onto pins before > > DC#4? What is that? Some sort of contact cleaner? DC-4 was a significant airplane in the 1930's and 1940's. It provided the base design and inspiration for the DC-6, DC-7, and Japanese long range bombers. http://www.ruudleeuw.com/dc4_tec.htm From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Sep 30 16:09:29 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 17:09:29 -0400 Subject: Tano Dragons still available??? In-Reply-To: References: <433D6924.8000402@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050930170744.046d2418@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Fri, 30 Sep 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > I'm trying to think of other (reasonably) widespread (within the UK) > > UK-built machines of the time. I don't think the Dragon machines ever > > made it out to the US, nor did the Jupiter Ace, or any of Research > > Machines stuff. > >As far as I can tell, the Dragon 32 was sold here (in the U.S.) in normal >retail outlets for a while, though on a very limited basis. I got mine >from California Digital several years back before they ran out of the >rather largish stock they had. You mean this one? http://www.cadigital.com/computer.htm According to their website, they still have 'em... but I dunno how often they update that rascal. Always been meaning to get one, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Maybe I'm SOL now??? :-/ Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 30 16:22:47 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:22:47 -0500 Subject: blank paper tape reels wanted In-Reply-To: <200509302015.QAA27285@wordstock.com> References: <200509302015.QAA27285@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200509301622.47683.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 30 September 2005 15:15, Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly Ray Plett spake: > > Just noticed your file on google. Are you still in need of paper > > tape or = more to the point for me , do you still have fan-fold > > paper tape to get = rid of?=20 > > Ray Plett at mts.net > > Why is the date on this message a week old? Looking at the headers: ... Received: from wnpgmb11dc1-45-168-53.dynamic.mts.net (HELO prclzf8fgo1unu) ([206.45.168.53]) by wnpgmb02-c600c.mts.net with SMTP; 30 Sep 2005 10:13:22 -0500 It's either because he has his date set wrong, or the message sat in the "outbox" on his mail client (aparently Lookout Express) for a week. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Sep 30 16:28:44 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASR-33 Restoration Message-ID: <200509302128.OAA06032@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ashley Carder" ---snip--- > but I can't get the keyboard to type in local mode. The keys don't press down all the way. Hi As another mentioned, it most likely has a keyboard reset problem. If it still has the H shaped coupling between the keyboard and the printer, remove this and see if you can reset the keyboard by actuating the crank manually. Also, look to see if the printer assembly is actuating the reset by manually turning the motor and watching where the H coupling goes. This is driven by ( as I recall ) a clutch near the distributor. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Sep 30 16:59:51 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Locking ASR32 for transport Message-ID: <200509302159.OAA06038@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I believe there are 4 holes that you can see in the bottom plate that go to empty threaded holes in the frame of the printer. You need to put these screws in and it will clamp the printer unit to the frame so it doesn't wobble around on the rubber mounts. I'd tell you what thread but my unit came without them :( Dwight >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > >Grrr, I hate bringing up old topics, but I can't find anything in the >archives or on Googl.e > >I'll be shipping an ASR32 and want to lock the typing unit. I've seen a >message from Tony mentioning a "transit screw" that secures the typing >unit to the base. > >Can anyone elaborate? > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From ken at seefried.com Fri Sep 30 17:08:32 2005 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 18:08:32 -0400 Subject: Linux Floppy Install (Re: YATYRD) In-Reply-To: <200509300328.j8U3Scht010006@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509300328.j8U3Scht010006@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <433DB760.2040900@seefried.com> From: Doc Shipley > IIRC, Slack v3.3 took 54 1.44MB disks. Interesting. I recall installing something I think was slack with a 0.99 kernel around 1993-4. The i386 with 5M ram and a 40MB HD that ran it was a sporty box back then. I remember bitching 'cause it was something more than a dozen floppies or so. But it had a C compiler, so I could do my homework (and not dial into an AT&T 3b20 or drive in to campus and use a Sun 3). And it was my UUCP node: ...!ucbvax!gatech!weasel!ken. Good times...good times... 54 floppies? Wow...you've got more patience than me. Ken From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Sep 30 17:16:14 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:16:14 -0700 Subject: Zilog Development System available... Message-ID: <200509301516.15214.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I just examined a "Zilog Z80 Microcomputer System", Model 05-6002-05 (MCZ 1/80 60K), Serial Number 744 and an associated terminal, Dentronix Systems SCS200, Serial Number 395. The Z80 development system looks in good shape (but needs exterior cleaning). It has two built-in 8" FDD and it has both a terminal port and a serial or parallel port. The matching Dentronix terminal is so clean, it looks brand new. The system comes with a complete set of manuals, which includes schematics of the "mainframe" and plug-in boards. Unfortunately, there is no software available. The system and terminal are located in Mountain View, California and I'm guessing a total weight of 50 lbs. If this is of interest to you, make an offer for it directly to me - and I'll pass that information on to it's owner. If there are no takers, I'll likely buy it myself to keep it from going to a scrapper (in about a week). Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 30 17:13:20 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 23:13:20 +0100 Subject: Tano Dragons still available??? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050930170744.046d2418@mail.30below.com> References: <433D6924.8000402@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20050930170744.046d2418@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <433DB880.7040808@yahoo.co.uk> Roger Merchberger wrote: [Dragons] > Always been meaning to get one, but haven't gotten around to it yet. > Maybe I'm SOL now??? :-/ They're very light weight machines by the way, and still turn up in the UK pretty often. Shipping one across the pond would likely not be that expensive if you *really* wanted one (comparable to shipping a Commodore 64 I'd say). Rich Harding who runs the Dragondata website might be worth a prod in case he has a spare machine: http://www.dndata.com/dragond/frames.htm Jules (with a dead D32 and a GEC-built D64) From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Sep 30 17:22:22 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 18:22:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Documation M1000-L manual In-Reply-To: References: <200509291700.j8TH0cVt099376@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Does anyone have a tech manual for the M1000-L? I've seen the docs for the M200 and M300 on Bitsavers, but the M1000 has an extra card in (two card board) and there are adjustment pots on it. Thanks for any pointers. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 30 17:22:12 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 23:22:12 +0100 Subject: Linux Floppy Install (Re: YATYRD) In-Reply-To: <433DB760.2040900@seefried.com> References: <200509300328.j8U3Scht010006@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433DB760.2040900@seefried.com> Message-ID: <433DBA94.1030607@yahoo.co.uk> Ken Seefried wrote: > From: Doc Shipley > >> IIRC, Slack v3.3 took 54 1.44MB disks. > > > Interesting. > I recall installing something I think was slack with a 0.99 kernel > around 1993-4. Probably still SLS then, although I could be wrong. My memory is of around 50 floppies for a full install too, although only a fraction of that was needed to get a networked box up and running and then install stuff without the need for floppies. > The i386 with 5M ram and a 40MB HD that ran it was a > sporty box back then. I remember bitching 'cause it was something more > than a dozen floppies or so. But it had a C compiler, so I could do my > homework (and not dial into an AT&T 3b20 or drive in to campus and use a > Sun 3). Same deal for me; I could do pretty much all my uni assignments on my own PC then armed with beer and music, rather than go find a terminal on campus in order to talk to a Sun box. I was running off an 89MB drive (and was fortunate enough to have a 486/33 with a whopping 8MB of memory), but I used to boot DOS from that disk as well as SLS Linux (using OS/2's Boot Manager IIRC). Ahh, fond memories of the days when PCs, software, and the 'net were actually fun.. cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 30 17:50:18 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:50:18 -0600 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <200509300955.j8U9tg8M006903@renig.nat.blars.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050929102720.03a99b68@mail.30below.com> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050929102720.03a99b68@mail.30below.com> <200509300955.j8U9tg8M006903@renig.nat.blars.org> Message-ID: <433DC12A.2010405@jetnet.ab.ca> Blars Blarson wrote: > Are you interested in a couple of Frank Hogg Labs systems os9/68k > systems? One 68000, one 68020. Located in Los Angeles. The lack of software is what prevents me from even considering a 68k system. A 6809 software can still be found or pirated from the web. Ben alias woodelf. PS. Shipping to Canada is the other factor. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 30 17:57:24 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:57:24 -0600 Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <20050929185847.000059e1@brass> References: <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <20050928182926.0000638a@brass> <20050928182348.M9790@shell.lmi.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050929102720.03a99b68@mail.30below.com> <433C0E00.8030009@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050929185847.000059e1@brass> Message-ID: <433DC2D4.8050605@jetnet.ab.ca> Scott Stevens wrote: >>I think you can buy CoCo 3's still. What I want is a REAL OS/9 >>machine but I never could afford more than a Coco. > > > Wire-wrap one. That's probably the coolest OS/9 machine you could ever > have. If I could wire wrap I'd have serveral TTL homebrew computers now. :) Now if I did build a system it would would be os/9 after the homebrew design I working on. 200 SSI LS chips and still counting for the alu. :) From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Sep 30 18:21:49 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 18:21:49 -0500 Subject: Linux Floppy Install (Re: YATYRD) In-Reply-To: <433DB760.2040900@seefried.com> References: <200509300328.j8U3Scht010006@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433DB760.2040900@seefried.com> Message-ID: <433DC88D.2070007@mdrconsult.com> Ken Seefried wrote: > From: Doc Shipley > >> IIRC, Slack v3.3 took 54 1.44MB disks. > > > Interesting. > I recall installing something I think was slack with a 0.99 kernel > around 1993-4. The i386 with 5M ram and a 40MB HD that ran it was a > sporty box back then. I remember bitching 'cause it was something more > than a dozen floppies or so. But it had a C compiler, so I could do my > homework (and not dial into an AT&T 3b20 or drive in to campus and use a > Sun 3). > And it was my UUCP node: ...!ucbvax!gatech!weasel!ken. > Good times...good times... > > 54 floppies? Wow...you've got more patience than me. Yep. The .99 kernel wo9uld have been SLS or a very early slackware - v3.3 had a v2.0 kernel. The base OS was only 15-20 disks, but I had no UNIX experience at all, and I had no clue how to make the box dial up amnd mount the Slackware archive as an NFS filesystem to do the rest of the install online. It took me some six weeks to learn enough bash (and learn how to read HOWTOs and man pages) to write a dialup script and actually connect to an FTP site. My wife thought I had gone totally over the edge when I started whooping, then jumped up and danced her around the living room. It *was* good times. And the challenges are still there, when I bother to look. Doc From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 30 18:44:31 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 18:44:31 Subject: Zilog Development System available... In-Reply-To: <200509301516.15214.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050930184431.18cf0f84@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Lyle, By all means grab it! They're very rare. I used to have one but gave it to Mike Haas. I think there's still one more buried now at the warehouse. I think I have a brochure for one somewhere to. Also I think one of the old IC Masters that I have has an article about them. Joe At 03:16 PM 9/30/05 -0700, you wrote: >I just examined a "Zilog Z80 Microcomputer System", Model 05-6002-05 (MCZ 1/80 >60K), Serial Number 744 and an associated terminal, Dentronix Systems SCS200, >Serial Number 395. The Z80 development system looks in good shape (but needs >exterior cleaning). It has two built-in 8" FDD and it has both a terminal >port and a serial or parallel port. The matching Dentronix terminal is so >clean, it looks brand new. > >The system comes with a complete set of manuals, which includes schematics of >the "mainframe" and plug-in boards. Unfortunately, there is no software >available. > >The system and terminal are located in Mountain View, California and I'm >guessing a total weight of 50 lbs. > >If this is of interest to you, make an offer for it directly to me - and I'll >pass that information on to it's owner. > >If there are no takers, I'll likely buy it myself to keep it from going to a >scrapper (in about a week). > >Cheers, >Lyle >-- >Lyle Bickley >Bickley Consulting West Inc. >Mountain View, CA >http://bickleywest.com > >"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Sep 30 19:32:06 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:32:06 Subject: Paravant RLT-88 computer? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050925210140.0fa7d084@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050930193206.332f0c10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I didn't get any responses to my question about the Paravant computers. However I decided to post some pictures and see if that sparks any response so here we go. This is what it looks like. The charger is in front of it. The charging cord uses a "Cannon" plug as do all the I/O cables. This is a picture of the right hand end showing the charging port, 2 serial ports and another unknown port. At the top right corner is the knob that locks the tilt screen in position. This is a picture of the left end showing the removable cover and one of the RAM disk memory cards. The way the system is currently configured these cards act as the A and D drives. (The main drive is drive C.) Does anyone know anything about these cards?? This is a picture of the left end with the cover removed. It shows the two memory cards as well as slots for two more. Surprisingly the main battery in the computer is still good. Unfortunately the batteries in the memory cards seem to have died since I can't read the cards (they report General Drive failure). I would like to have seen what the program that was loaded the machine did. It was something called Navy EO. The good bit is that the program to reformat the cards is in the main computer so the cards can still be used. This is what it looks like when opened up. The keys all work fine but there's no touch typing on this keyboard! The keys all require a deliberate press. This is a screen show showing the operating system (MS-DOS 3.21f) and a directory listing. This thing is built like the proverbial brick S***house! Anybody ever seen anything like this before? Joe At 09:01 PM 9/25/05 +0000, you wrote: > Anyone have any information about this computer? It's a small RUGGED >laptop. It's even beefier than the Grids. Here's a bit of general info >about them but I'd like more specific info on the model RLT-88. > > Joe > > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Sep 30 18:48:08 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 00:48:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Tano Dragons still available??? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050930170744.046d2418@mail.30below.com> References: <433D6924.8000402@yahoo.co.uk> <5.1.0.14.2.20050930170744.046d2418@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <1381.192.168.0.5.1128124088.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> On Fri, September 30, 2005 10:09 pm, Roger Merchberger said: > You mean this one? > > http://www.cadigital.com/computer.htm > > According to their website, they still have 'em... but I dunno how often > they update that rascal. > > Always been meaning to get one, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Maybe > I'm SOL now??? :-/ Given California Digital's last catalogue I got they're still reliving the dark ages of computer technology and still expecting to be able to charge ridiculous amounts of money for a 5 1/4" floppy drive. When I got my Tanos a few years ago they shipped over in a Tano box for $35 each. You have the advantage of already being in the US - give them a poke and they'll probably ship you 5 for $50 :) cheers, -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Sep 30 18:53:22 2005 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:53:22 -0700 Subject: identifying PC Simms In-Reply-To: <433D4A85.2000508@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200509291700.j8TH0cVt099376@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433D4A85.2000508@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 9/30/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > I beliee that most PCs could make use of the added parity bit, while > > Macs didn't care if it was present. > > Isn't that the other way around? Nearly all PCs I've come across don't > care about parity, but the rest of the world always seemed to make use > of it. > It's one of those things that has changed. Prior to around the Penitum introduction, the vast majority of PC's (and most serious machines) used parity by default. Parity could be switched off (usually by DIP switch or mobo jumper.) As memories got bigger, parity errors due to random events (cosmic ray, decay of radio active potassium in the chip ceramic) went from being a once a year thing, to being a once a day thing. Of course, the users whose computers crashed with a "parity error" message on the screen got annoyed and blamed the motherboard manufacturers. The manufacturers came up with two solutions. The first was ECC/EDAC support, which could correct most of the errors. The second (and cheaper) method was to not use parity at all. After all, 11% of parity errors aren't actually a problem in the RAM the computer sees. Of the rest, a significant fraction affect memory areas that won't be saved to disk. If you corrupt code in memory a program will probably crash (rather than the computer), at which point the code will be reloaded from memory. Other likely places for memory errors are big images. Chances are that the errors won't make to disk. I've often wondered if any operating systems wash their pages. Having the idle loop perform a quick checksum on pages that aren't dirty to see if they are intact (and reload them from disk if they aren't) would seem like a good idea on non-ECC systems. Eric From vcf at siconic.com Fri Sep 30 19:11:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 17:11:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tano Dragons still available??? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050930170744.046d2418@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Sep 2005, Roger Merchberger wrote: > You mean this one? > > http://www.cadigital.com/computer.htm Yarp. > According to their website, they still have 'em... but I dunno how often > they update that rascal. > > Always been meaning to get one, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Maybe > I'm SOL now??? :-/ I think you're SOL. Last I heard someone tried to order one and was told they done sold out. I had the same thing happen with a lot of unusual Xerox laptops they had: waited too long to order and they sold out :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Sep 30 19:23:04 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 20:23:04 -0400 Subject: Tano Dragons still available??? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050930170744.046d2418@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050930202116.01f1fd20@mail.earthlink.net> California Digital sold most of their stuff a year ago March. They haven't bothered to take the website down or put any money into "fixing" it. At 08:11 PM 9/30/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Fri, 30 Sep 2005, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > You mean this one? > > > > http://www.cadigital.com/computer.htm > >Yarp. > > > According to their website, they still have 'em... but I dunno how often > > they update that rascal. > > > > Always been meaning to get one, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Maybe > > I'm SOL now??? :-/ > >I think you're SOL. Last I heard someone tried to order one and was told >they done sold out. I had the same thing happen with a lot of unusual >Xerox laptops they had: waited too long to order and they sold out :( > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Sep 30 19:35:34 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:35:34 -0500 Subject: identifying PC Simms In-Reply-To: <433D4A85.2000508@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200509291700.j8TH0cVt099376@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433D4A85.2000508@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050930193534.00001d1c@brass> On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:24:05 +0100 Jules Richardson wrote: > Jeff Walther wrote: > > The real trick is figureing out the capacity of the chips from the > > markings on them. Google searches sometimes help, but often (almost > > always) just lead you to chip distributers spamming the search engine > > space with part numbers to lead part searches to their sites. They > > often don't even have the chip in question, and rarely have any useful > > information available on their website. > > Usenet archives tend to be better when finding out memory chip > capacities IME - luckily the spammers only seem to concentrate on the > web side of things. > > > I beliee that most PCs could make use of the added parity bit, while > > Macs didn't care if it was present. > > (ignoring attributions here I know) > > Isn't that the other way around? Nearly all PCs I've come across don't > care about parity, but the rest of the world always seemed to make use > of it. > No, my experience, in the 486 era and earlier, was that on the PC all the clone motherboards required 9-bit memory. The Macintosh ignored parity, and I used to know a few Mac enthusiasts who ridiculed the very idea of parity (spending an extra 1/8 of the price, etc etc) Pentium and newer systems don't require memory modules. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Sep 30 19:39:16 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:39:16 -0500 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> <20050929205843.00003299@brass> <575131af0509300632od34dbc0s@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050930193916.00002dbf@brass> On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 08:37:22 -0700 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 2:32 PM +0100 9/30/05, Liam Proven wrote: > >Until the rise of the PC, European microcomputers and American ones > >evolved in quite different directions - mainly because American ones > >were too damned expensive for us in the Old World so we used cheaper, > >more efficient machines. I bought train tickets in Amsterdam in 1990 > >from a woman using an Atari ST workstation; they were the kit of the > >whole Centraal station, as far as I could see. I knew labs and > >businesses as well as schools in Britain entirely based on Acorn > >32-bit RISC micros running RISC OS - even the Acorn licensed Unix, > >RISC-IX, was too expensive. I believe Amigas as well as STs were very > >widespread in Germany. Serious (& rich, back then) British DTP types > >used Macs and still do. > > The interesting thing here is, both the Amiga and the Atari were US > computers. Yet, if anything, they were more popular in Europe, > especially in the UK and Germany (today most anything for either > platform tends to come out of one of these two countries). > > As for the Acorn, did it ever get exported anywhere? I know they > never really made it here to the US. Another good example would be > the Sinclair, except for the little Timex-Sinclair system that was > out at about the same time as the VIC-20, or a little before, I don't > think any Sinclair models made it to the US (I have one, but it came > from a list member a few years ago). > I had a Sinclair 2068 machine, and it was one I bought at retail in Minneapolis, Minnesota, when they were current hardware. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Sep 30 19:43:19 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:43:19 -0500 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <575131af0509300645x7b5cf19ah@mail.gmail.com> References: <433AF26C.4020604@gmail.com> <575131af05092817517f49bb91@mail.gmail.com> <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> <575131af05092917292601af86@mail.gmail.com> <20050929205843.00003299@brass> <575131af0509300645x7b5cf19ah@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050930194319.000042d2@brass> On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:45:24 +0100 Liam Proven wrote: > On 30/09/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > > Nope. It's a Tandy Pocket Computer. It has a one line LCD display. > > One of these? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tandy_Pocket_Computer > > "Clone" of one of these, it says... > > http://pocket.free.fr/html/sharp/pc-1246_e.html > Yep. That's it. The 'highest end' Tandy Pocket, if I'm not mistaken. It goes on.. and on.. and on.. I wonder if I will _ever_ have to change the battery, or if I'll one day discover it's been 'upgraded' by Roswell aliens and has a permanent power source. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Sep 30 19:42:01 2005 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 20:42:01 -0400 Subject: PET help In-Reply-To: <20050930134538.F33366@shell.lmi.net> References: <200509301950.PAA28211@wordstock.com> <20050930134538.F33366@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <433DDB59.7090301@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 30 Sep 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > >>> I'll make my standard comment here. Putting >>>DC#4 or similar materials onto pins before >> >>DC#4? What is that? Some sort of contact cleaner? > > > DC-4 was a significant airplane in the 1930's and 1940's. > It provided the base design and inspiration for the DC-6, DC-7, and > Japanese long range bombers. > > http://www.ruudleeuw.com/dc4_tec.htm Blong Blong blong blong. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 30 17:51:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 23:51:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: PCjr (Was Re: IBM PC hacking) In-Reply-To: <200509291206590232.1F8539C1@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 29, 5 12:06:59 pm Message-ID: > > The XT controllers were (the 10 MB controller was different from the > 20MB one) a peculiar beast with a bunch of proprietary LSI. When the IIRC, the TechRef for the 10MByte controller contains a schematic with 3 chips simply labelled LSI A, LSI B and LSI C. It was fairly obvious from the piuout that one of this was nothing other than a Z80 processor. I think one of the others was something standard too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 30 17:58:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 23:58:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <200509291640050460.207F3EE0@10.0.0.252> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 29, 5 04:40:05 pm Message-ID: > Many compact fluorescents use a 30-40Khz AC power source, so > stroboscopic effects may not be a problem unless your lathe's chuck But if the input to that inverter is not well smoothed (and the output not well regulated) there could still be significant mains-fequenct ripple on the output. However, my second point (of the afterglow in the darkroom) rather suggests these lamps have long enough persistance phosphors for there not to be a significant strobe effect. > rotates at a VERY high speed. You can also make use of standard bi-pin > fluorescent lamps with a fixture that uses an active (high-frequency) > ballast. > > For your darkroom, you might want to look into the multiple-white-LED > mains-powered spotlights. Ebay is full of sellers eager to unload them. Hmmm.. Fromt what I rememeber, white LEDs depend on a phosphor in the package to get the white light (LED's being naturally a narrow-band device). I would worry about the persistance of that phosphor, I think. I also can't see the point in changing. The energy wasted by keeping filament lamps in those positions is minimal IMHO (they're not on for that long or that often). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 29 18:01:30 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 00:01:30 +2500 (BST) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> from "Scott Stevens" at Sep 29, 5 07:12:40 pm Message-ID: > My Tandy Pocket Computer (a PC-8) still has the same battery in it that > it did when I bought it used. Granted, I don't hammer away at it I've heard stories of HP Voyager series calculators (10C, 11C, 12C, 15C, 16C) running for 15 years or more on the same set of 3 LR44 button cells. And being used fairly hard in that time. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 29 18:10:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 00:10:17 +2500 (BST) Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: <200509300136.VAA18148@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Sep 29, 5 09:18:25 pm Message-ID: > > > There are 2 specific places I don't use [compact fluorescent lights] > > -- one is over the lathe (I am worried about a possible stroboscopic > > effect making the machine appear stationary when it's not) > > I actually wouldn't worry about that, for two reasons: (1) they have a > relatively long "on" time (partly the long-persistence phosphor, partly > the width of the mains voltage peak), and thus a rotating lathe, even > if rotating at a multiple of the strobe rate, will look blurred rather > than stationary, and (2) anyone who depends solely on the appearance of > the moving parts to tell whether a lathe is on is so stupid as to have > no business near power machinery in the first place (look at the power > switch, listen for the motor, find a smooth rotating part and touch it > lightly, the ways to tell are legion). Most lathes (including mine) have a clutch between the motor and the chuck. The idea is you keep the motor running most of the time, engage the clutch when you actually want to do something ;-). So the part could be stationary even if the motor is running. OK, that's fail-safe (if the motor is silent, the machine certainly isn't turning), but a lot of the time you throw the clutch out, measure something with a micrometer, then let the clutch in again, so you tend not to notice the motor sound. And of course you test by touching a smooth part first. And then one day you forget and get caught by one of the chuck jaws or something. Yes, it _is_ stupid. I admit it's stupid. But I like to have all the clues I can have. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 29 18:23:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 00:23:22 +2500 (BST) Subject: ASR-33 Restoration In-Reply-To: <32667285.1128046048345.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> from "Ashley Carder" at Sep 29, 5 10:07:28 pm Message-ID: > Does anyone have any pointers or good reference sites on testing and > bringing one of these things back to life? I want to start at ground > zero. One of the TTYs seems to power up fine and the motors run, but I > can't get the keyboard to type in local mode. The keys don't press down > all the way. The shipping bolt was not in place when these were > shipped, and I know they were picked up and tilted and moved around, so > things inside may be out of alignment. The big problem with shipping Model 32 and 33 Teletypes (and this will hopefully help with Sellam's question a few messages later one) is that the typing unit -- the diecast frame with the motor, platten, all the printing mechanism and even the punch -- is not fixed down. It rests on 4 rubber mounts in the base pan. The only mechanical linkage to the rest of the machine is the infamous H-plate. This is at the rear right of the keyboard and connects a linkage on the keyboard to a linkage on the typing unit. When you press a key, the linkage on the keyboard rotates (front edge moves up IIRC). This twists the H-plate, opertating the linkage on the typing unit. This then releases a clutch at the rear left of the typing unit, causing the transmitter shaft to spin and to serialise the character from the keyboard (that's what the distributor disk is for). At the end of that cycle, the same link on the typing unit is forced back again by a cam on the transmitter shaft. That forces the keyboard linkage down (it latches), reseting the keyboard. There is one other sort-of link. A white plastic tab at the same corner of the typing unit fits under the stem of the run-out key. Pressing that key operates the linkage, causing the machine to transmit repeated NULs. There is a hole in the base pan under the typing unit, which lines up with a hole in the typing unit chassis. You should insert a self-tapping screw there to lock the typing unit in place for shipping. If you can't. I'd remove the typing unit and pack it sperately. Removing the H-plate would help a bit, but if the typing unit breaks free, it will damage the plastic run-out linkage. OK, in this case, I'd start by making sure the typing unit is correctly seated. If necessary remove it -- remove the H-plate first, unplug the wiring, and lift the typing unit up at the rear first and slide it out. You can then see how it should seat and refit it correctly. The linkage the couples to the H-plate on typing unit is spring-loaded, and the H-plate has a deep notch on that side to clear the pivot pin. You can use a screwdriver in the obvious slot in the H-plate to force it to the left and then unhook it from the keyboard linkage. Then remove it altogehter. Refitting it is a bit of a fiddle, but it gets easier with a bit of practice... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 29 18:50:40 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 00:50:40 +2500 (BST) Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: <575131af0509300632od34dbc0s@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Sep 30, 5 02:32:10 pm Message-ID: [Tandy PC8] > Not familiar with that one, I'm afraid. May be one of the many > machines that didn't really catch on over here. The Tandy / Radio Shack Pocket Computers were actually made by either Sharp or Casio, and were prety close to standard machines of those manufactuerers. The PC1 was almost identical to the Sharp PC1211 (IIRC, the difference was that the former didn't have a Yen sign on the keyboard, but the appropriate keystrokes still generated it). The PC2 was similar to the Sharp PC1500. Similar but not identical. The circuitry was the same, the ROM was the same (or at least close enough that the peripherals -- printer and RS232 interface -- for one would work on the other). But the keyboard layout was different. This would have meant a new top case moulding and new upper PCB, so no idea why they did it, but they did. I found this out the hard way, I have the Radio Shack RS232 module. In the ROM is a dumb terminal emulator program. It rusn fine on the Sharp, but the supplied overlay (to indicate the functions of some of the keys) doesn't fit. I think the PC3 was also a Sharp. The PC4 was a Casio PB410. AFAIK it was identical The PC5, 6, 7 were also Casio, but I can't remember the details. And I've never seen a PC8 -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 29 18:43:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 00:43:03 +2500 (BST) Subject: transputers In-Reply-To: from "Alexey Toptygin" at Sep 30, 5 06:19:48 am Message-ID: > > Speaking of transputers, I've been wanting to get something of this > architecture for a long time. Unfortunately they don't seem to come up too > often on ebay, and when they do it's usually single chips or single chip > interface boards. Do you guys have any idea where I should look to get at > least a 4 transputer board? Important fact : A transputer chip has 4 high-speed (for the time) serial links on it. It can boot from one of those links, you don't need to provide a boot ROM in the transputer's address space. Unless you are doing something seriously odd, you will need at least one board with some kind of host interface on it. Typically this board will have a C011 or C012 chip on it, which is a serial chip for transputer links. One side is a normal 8 bit bus interface, the other is the transputer link. Typically, that sort of host board has 1 transputer and some RAM on it too. The standard use (but not required) is to link one of the links of that transputer to the link interface chip, and use the other 3 links to connect to other transputers. A typical such board would be the B004. which is a full-length 8 bit ISA card. There are also VME-based cards (but watch out, there's at least one VME transputer board where the board expects to be the VME master, _it_ controls other board in the VME crate, and is booted over the transputer link). Connecting up transputers is really easy given the databook. Even working with the bare chip is fairly simple. So personally, I'd try tp get a B004 or clone (and there were many), and a few transputers and get soldering... The other possibily is to use TRAMs. TRAM == TRAnsputer Module, and in the simplest case consists of a transputer chip and some memory. Brought off the module are the links, the control pins (reset, etc) and a clock input (5MHz). There were TRAM motherboards, some of which contained a C004 link swtich IC (which lets you connect the transputer links together as yoy linke -- _It_ is controlled by a further transputer link -- and often a host interface. There was certainly an ISA-bus TRAM mothterboard (B008 IIRC). Finding this stuff is not going to be easy now, alas. -tony From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Sep 30 19:58:06 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:58:06 -0500 Subject: identifying PC Simms In-Reply-To: <20050930193534.00001d1c@brass> References: <200509291700.j8TH0cVt099376@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433D4A85.2000508@yahoo.co.uk> <20050930193534.00001d1c@brass> Message-ID: <20050930195806.00006b7e@brass> On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:35:34 -0500 Scott Stevens wrote: > On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:24:05 +0100 > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Jeff Walther wrote: > > > The real trick is figureing out the capacity of the chips from the > > > markings on them. Google searches sometimes help, but often (almost > > > > always) just lead you to chip distributers spamming the search > engine > > > space with part numbers to lead part searches to their sites. They > > > often don't even have the chip in question, and rarely have any > useful > > > information available on their website. > > > > Usenet archives tend to be better when finding out memory chip > > capacities IME - luckily the spammers only seem to concentrate on the > > web side of things. > > > > > I beliee that most PCs could make use of the added parity bit, while > > > > Macs didn't care if it was present. > > > > (ignoring attributions here I know) > > > > Isn't that the other way around? Nearly all PCs I've come across don't > > > care about parity, but the rest of the world always seemed to make use > > > of it. > > > No, my experience, in the 486 era and earlier, was that on the PC all > the clone motherboards required 9-bit memory. The Macintosh ignored > parity, and I used to know a few Mac enthusiasts who ridiculed the very > idea of parity (spending an extra 1/8 of the price, etc etc) > > Pentium and newer systems don't require memory modules. Yikes. They don't require _parity_ memory modules. (at least, _consumer-grade_ Pentium systems. My IBM quad PPro Server is fussier.) From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Sep 30 19:57:44 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 20:57:44 -0400 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 01 Oct 2005 00:01:30." Message-ID: <200510010057.j910vink011597@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tony Duell wrote: > >I've heard stories of HP Voyager series calculators (10C, 11C, 12C, 15C, >16C) running for 15 years or more on the same set of 3 LR44 button cells. >And being used fairly hard in that time. I never get more than 2-3 year out of my 16C... Maybe I'm using the wrong batteries? :-) (if the damn thing ever dies I may freak out and need detox. I just can't live without my 11c and 16c. I use them *every* day.) -brad From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Sep 30 20:01:21 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 20:01:21 -0500 Subject: PalmOS no more? :( In-Reply-To: References: <20050929191240.00002c00@brass> Message-ID: <20050930200121.000072a8@brass> On Sat, 1 Oct 2005 00:01:30 +2500 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > My Tandy Pocket Computer (a PC-8) still has the same battery in it that > > it did when I bought it used. Granted, I don't hammer away at it > > I've heard stories of HP Voyager series calculators (10C, 11C, 12C, 15C, > 16C) running for 15 years or more on the same set of 3 LR44 button cells. > And being used fairly hard in that time. > > -tony I used my HP-11C calculator for years at work. Then some hearing aid company (for some reason) sent me a sample kit of hearing aid batteries. They were a smaller radius but the same thickness. I put them in the HP11C and wedged a little of that 'pink ESD supressant' foam to hold them in place, and used it for quite a while that way. Yesterday at work someone found an HP-45 Owners Handbook and two Quick Reference Guides stuck in a cabinet that was being cleaned out, and handed them to me. I have succeeded in getting the folks at work well trained. ;) From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Sep 30 20:02:58 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 20:02:58 -0500 Subject: PCjr (Was Re: IBM PC hacking) In-Reply-To: References: <200509291206590232.1F8539C1@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <20050930200258.00004860@brass> On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 23:51:10 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > The XT controllers were (the 10 MB controller was different from the > > 20MB one) a peculiar beast with a bunch of proprietary LSI. When the > > IIRC, the TechRef for the 10MByte controller contains a schematic with 3 > chips simply labelled LSI A, LSI B and LSI C. It was fairly obvious from > the piuout that one of this was nothing other than a Z80 processor. I > think one of the others was something standard too. > Is that the Xebec controller? (can't remember if that's who IBM got the original controller for the XT from or not) > -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Sep 30 20:07:13 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 21:07:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: identifying PC Simms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I've often wondered if any operating systems wash their pages. Having the > idle loop perform a quick checksum on pages that aren't dirty to see if they > are intact (and reload them from disk if they aren't) would seem like a good > idea on non-ECC systems. Most mainframes have done this since the 1980s. RS/6000s do this as well (probably not AIX doing the work, but the memory controller). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Sep 30 20:55:07 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 20:55:07 -0500 Subject: Zilog Development System available... In-Reply-To: <200509301516.15214.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200509301516.15214.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050930200858.04e07098@mail> At 05:16 PM 9/30/2005, you wrote: >I just examined a "Zilog Z80 Microcomputer System", Model 05-6002-05 (MCZ 1/80 >60K), Serial Number 744 and an associated terminal, Mine's a model 05-1014-00. Back in 1997 and 2000, I think they were mentioned on the list. Fritz Chwolka, Christian Fandt and Joe Rigdon might still have one. I've got the RIO operating system disks for mine. I've rarely used it. If someone else wants one, we can work something out. Do these have a place in history? - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 30 21:27:56 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 22:27:56 -0400 Subject: PET help In-Reply-To: <433D2212.3629.D863569A@localhost> References: <5736e825050929134112dcdb91@mail.gmail.com> <433D2212.3629.D863569A@localhost> Message-ID: On 9/30/05, Hans Franke wrote: > It's a PET, so first thing is just to press back all chips > firm into their sockets. Solves 98% of all Commodore problems. I had a 2001-8 (static PET) that needed a v-shaped cardboard brace under the middle of the motherboard - I sold the machine about 10 years ago, but I always suspected the problem was dodgy SRAM sockets. If reseating doesn't work, socket replacement may be called for. -ethan From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Sep 30 21:53:16 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 21:53:16 -0500 Subject: IBM PC hacking In-Reply-To: <200509281905350542.1BDE1917@10.0.0.252> References: <200509281905350542.1BDE1917@10.0.0.252> Message-ID: <433DFA1C.9020002@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Okay, I don't get it. What's so special about a plastic box with a wimpy power supply (what was it, 32 watts?) that can't even do DMA, for the love of Mike? A friend who should've known better bought one and upgraded it, bit by bit, to include a hard disk and, I believe, an external ISA card cage. He spent more on getting that poor thing to some sort of usefulness than he would have had he purchased a regular PC/XT (much less a clone). Even so, he kept running into the "Sorry, this doesn't work on a PC Jr." situation. What was special about it wasn't necessarily what it was, but what it was trying to be. Very interesting design choices and direction for IBM. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trag at io.com Fri Sep 30 15:41:00 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:41:00 -0500 Subject: IIfx SIMMs; Was: Re: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? In-Reply-To: <200509301700.j8UH0DsZ022668@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509301700.j8UH0DsZ022668@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 11:55:18 -0700 >From: Eric J Korpela >Subject: Re: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? >Anyone have a datasheet for Hitachi HM511000AJP8 DRAMs? It's used in at >least some IIfx SIMMS. > >What's the deal with parity on the IIfx? Is the parity bit stored off the >SIMM? The technote >http://developer.apple.com/technotes/hw/pdf/hw_25.pdfmentions parity, >are there 9-chip SIMMS on the IIfx? Or is the parity stored >on a separate RAM on the mainboard? Since your max memory is 8x(4Mx8bit bit >SIMMS) accessed 32 bits at a time (I assume) you'd only need 1 Mbit of >parity RAM if you do parity across 32 bits. You are unlikely to ever see a IIfx that actually implements parity. It was an option for the IIfx but was very rare in practice. In virtually all cases the IIfx uses an 8 bit 64 pin SIMM with no parity. The presence of parity on the SIMM will not affect operation, because on a non-parity IIfx, the SIMM pins for parity connections are NC. A IIfx SIMM built for parity will have 1/8 more capacity. The extra storage for parity is on each individual SIMM. The pinout for the SIMMs is in "The Guide to the Macintosh Family Hardware". It's one of those Addison Wesley books. I don't have that particular datasheet on hand. But if you get one, I'd like a copy as well. I imagine it's a pretty standard 1M X 1 DRAM chip. >Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 14:01:37 -0700 >From: Eric J Korpela >I also notice that the table on page 2 of the technote contradicts the IIfx >section. The table says you can put up to 128MB in a IIfx, but the IIfx >section says the biggest SIMM allowed is 256kx8. I think you misread that somehow. The tech note states that the IIfx does not support 256KB SIMMs. It gives examples of memory configurations up to 32 MB, using 4 MB SIMMs, although there's a consistent typo in the example where megabit is written instead of megabyte. But the maximum memory capacity is 128 MB, using eight 16 MB SIMMs. That was/is the maximum capacity for most of the Mac II family. The exceptions are the original Mac II (68020 based), the Mac IIsi (supports 16 MB SIMMs, but only has 4 slots) and the abomination with variations known as the IIvi and IIvx. As far as I know, there can't be 30 pin SIMMs with capacities larger than 16 MB, because there are only 12 address pins available and 12 X 2 = 24 and 24 address bits yields 16M addresses. There aren't any NC pins left to convert to additional address lines, unless one steals the parity pins. Jeff Walther From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 30 15:30:37 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 13:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: YATYRD In-Reply-To: <200509300955.j8U9tg8M006903@renig.nat.blars.org> Message-ID: <20050930203038.47153.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone remember the 68000 based systems that were described in Radio Electronics in the late 80's? One was simply that - a description, of a project that had been popular in Europe. I guess sort of a set of plans that were developed by someone, and meant as a do it yourself project (or maybe was available in kit form). The other was an actual set of plans in RE, with, IIRC, circuit artwork, and all the rest. You could actually plug a cga card in, as well as other pc cards and whatnot, and of course drives. If anyone has any info/experience with either of these, please comment or e-mail me. I'll try and dig up the specific issues one of these days. --- Blars Blarson wrote: > In article <433C0E00.8030009 at jetnet.ab.ca> you > write: > >What I want is a REAL OS/9 > >machine but I never could afford more than a Coco. > > Are you interested in a couple of Frank Hogg Labs > systems os9/68k > systems? One 68000, one 68020. Located in Los > Angeles. > > -- > Blars Blarson blarson at blars.org > http://www.blars.org/blars.html > With Microsoft, failure is not an option. It is a > standard feature. > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From trag at io.com Fri Sep 30 16:15:21 2005 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:15:21 -0500 Subject: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? In-Reply-To: <200509301700.j8UH0DsZ022668@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200509301700.j8UH0DsZ022668@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 17:51:13 -0400 >From: Paul Koning >Subject: Re: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? > Tony> An analogue switch IC is a similar device, and those do > Tony> exist. The problem is finding one that will switch quickly > Tony> enough (I would guess in a few nanoseconds) for this > Tony> application. > >No problem. > >Quickswitches are rated to several hundred Megahertz. If that isn't >good enough, you can use microwave switch transistors. I don't know >the max switch rate of either, but presumably any transistor capable >of carrying microwave frequencies can switch on/off in a nanosecond or >better. >Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 15:16:46 -0700 (PDT) >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >Subject: Re: Tristate Buffer Output if Input is High-Z? >>No problem. > The problem is as Tony mentioned, you get no buffering. >This means you can't expect to put the mux too far from >the inputs on either side. You are really better off >using something like '245's. Thank you, gentlemen, and that includes the respondents I did not quote above (previous digest). I really appreciate all the great information and leads. I started with Pericom (as one person suggested) as I am familiar with some of their products and worked backwards from there. It appears that they are calling the product which I want "Bus Switch". Once I knew that, there's a nice selection available on Digi-Key, although I'll check Mouser later for better pricing. The selection is not quite as nice as I'd like, because there's nothing analogous to the SN74ABT241A. The nice thing about the 241 is that it divides its eight buffers into two groups of four with independent enables for the two groups of four. Okay, that's like a 244. However, the 241 has one active high enable, and one active low enable, while both enables on the 244 are active low. So I'll need an inverter in line with one of the OE pins on the bus switches, which isn't the end of the world, but its not as elegant as the SN74ABT241A would have been. The candidates are the Pericom PI5C3244 or the TI SN74CBT3244. The speeds on these components look fast enough, the time to switch from high-Z to conducting has a maximum value of about 6 ns on the Pericom and 8 ns on the TI. I'm not certain they used the same test conditions. Minimum times are 1 ns. Both have a propagation time of .25 ns from A to B or B to A once the switch is enabled. Dwight, can you elaborate on why I'd be better off with something like '245s? I either don't understand your point, or I have not explained my intent clearly enough. I am trying to emulate the SIMM on a IIfx. The only difficulty is getting X 4 DRAM chips to look as if they have separate D and Q pins. On stock IIfx SIMMs, the data signals are not buffered on the SIMM, they come directly from the DRAM chip to the SIMM connector. On my SIMM, they will go from the DRAM chip, through a bus switch (or tristate buffer) and then to the SIMM connector. So, unless too much signal strength is lost going through the bus switch, I do not understand why I'd need a buffer there to strengthen or clean up the signal. Or are you saying that I should have a latch there to hold the signal for some time after my switch control signal goes inactive to make sure that hold times are supported? The pinout on the SN74ABT241A (buffer) and the SN74CBT3244 (switch) are the same (the PI5C3244 is also the same but comes in a smaller package) and the same packages are available. I jumped the gun and already have some SN74ABT241A on hand. So I think what I'll do is design my first set of SIMMs with the posibility of taking the OE signal for the Data Out side of the buffer/switch either directly from WE, from WE run through an inverter (WE'), or from WE AND CAS'. The inverters and AND gates are available in tiny SC70 packages (similar to SOT23). Then I can test the Buffer with WE (OE is active high) as control for Din and Dout. The Buffer with WE AND CAS' (OE is active high) as control for Dout. And the Bus Switch with WE' (OE is active low) as control for Dout. Jeff Walther From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 30 16:57:51 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:57:51 -0700 Subject: identifying PC Simms In-Reply-To: <433D4A85.2000508@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200509291700.j8TH0cVt099376@dewey.classiccmp.org> <433D4A85.2000508@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200509301457510366.25480160@10.0.0.252> On 9/30/2005 at 3:24 PM Jules Richardson wrote: >> I beliee that most PCs could make use of the added parity bit, while > > Macs didn't care if it was present. > >(ignoring attributions here I know) > >Isn't that the other way around? Nearly all PCs I've come across don't >care about parity, but the rest of the world always seemed to make use >of it. Nope, PC's right up through the PS/2 used NMI (int 2) to diagnose memory parity and bus errors, as well as 80x87 exceptions. PS/2's also had a watchdog timer that could be activated (int 15h, ah=C3) to trip if the timer interrupt went un-serviced. The NMI could be selectively masked, of course (port 61h). There were a fiew BIOSes out there ("were" is operative, isn't it? No one actulaly makes new PC's using 30-pin SIMMs.) that would note the lack of the parity bit and simply mask it at POST time. I can recall that 30 pin non-parity SIMMs were specifically called out by some retailers as being for "Macintosh only). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 30 22:55:07 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 20:55:07 -0700 Subject: PCjr (Was Re: IBM PC hacking) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200509302055070351.268F14A3@10.0.0.252> On 9/30/2005 at 11:51 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >IIRC, the TechRef for the 10MByte controller contains a schematic with 3 >chips simply labelled LSI A, LSI B and LSI C. It was fairly obvious from >the piuout that one of this was nothing other than a Z80 processor. I >think one of the others was something standard too. Probably so, but I never substituted a "stock" Z80 to see if there was something different about the IBM version. OTOH, the "clone" controllers like Xebec certainly used the Z80. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 30 22:59:50 2005 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 20:59:50 -0700 Subject: USB Stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200509302059500833.269367EE@10.0.0.252> On 9/30/2005 at 11:58 PM ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >Hmmm.. Fromt what I rememeber, white LEDs depend on a phosphor in the >package to get the white light (LED's being naturally a narrow-band >device). I would worry about the persistance of that phosphor, I think. They do indeed--they're basically blue with a phosphor. But the persistence is measured in nsec, so you'd have to be pretty fast to notice it: http://www.knt.vein.hu/staff/schandaj/SJCV-Publ-2005/473.pdf OTOH, changing for the sake of changing is silly. Bob Pease did an article some time ago about replacement CFLs only made sense on applications where they're frequently used. Otherwise, the power savings doesn't yeild a sufficient return on investment. Cheers, Chuck