From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 1 00:14:59 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 01:14:59 -0400 Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> I was messing around with my Amiga 2000HD today (installing a 2.04 Kickstart Rom to replace the 1.3 Kickstart among other things) and now my internal floppy is dead. The drive worked fine after I changed the rom and the HD and installed workbench 2.04, it was when I reassembled the system and rebooted I noticed the floppy was no longer working. I took the drive out and didn't notice any smell or burnt traces (as if I had the power connected backwards and it fried), any way to troubleshoot one of these things (Chinon FB-354)? Anybody happen to have one of these drives laying around they don't need? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 00:30:57 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 00:30:57 -0500 Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem In-Reply-To: <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On 7/1/05, Teo Zenios wrote: > I was messing around with my Amiga 2000HD today (installing a 2.04 Kickstart > Rom to replace the 1.3 Kickstart among other things) and now my internal > floppy is dead. The drive worked fine after I changed the rom and the HD and > installed workbench 2.04, it was when I reassembled the system and rebooted > I noticed the floppy was no longer working. I took the drive out and didn't > notice any smell or burnt traces (as if I had the power connected backwards > and it fried), any way to troubleshoot one of these things (Chinon FB-354)? Hmm... given that there isn't _one_ FDC chip - perhaps you could check your 8520s? Those control the floppy digital signals (presuming your problem is that the drive doesn't light up, as opposed to a spinning floppy that won't read - that can be analog electronics or Paula). You could remove the drive, check carefully for shorts so you don't fry another machine, and try it on another machine (as DF1, to be most helpful). I'd also make sure you didn't dislodge the DF1 jumper on the motherboard - the A2000 is quirky in how it supports drive selects and internal/external drive numbers. This shouldn't affect DF0, but it _will_ affect DF1. I guess I should have asked first - you do have the schematics, don't you? They are at the back of the Tech Ref manual if nowhere else (for pre-v6 mobos - not sure where to find late-model schematics). I guess the point is - determine if it's the Amiga or the floppy drive first. As for troubleshooting the drive itself, I don't know that a) there's enough information to successfully poke around in the innards, or b) you'd be able to find parts to fix if it you could. From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 1 00:45:25 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 01:45:25 -0400 Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <012e01c57e00$149d2570$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 1:30 AM Subject: Re: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem > On 7/1/05, Teo Zenios wrote: > > I was messing around with my Amiga 2000HD today (installing a 2.04 Kickstart > > Rom to replace the 1.3 Kickstart among other things) and now my internal > > floppy is dead. The drive worked fine after I changed the rom and the HD and > > installed workbench 2.04, it was when I reassembled the system and rebooted > > I noticed the floppy was no longer working. I took the drive out and didn't > > notice any smell or burnt traces (as if I had the power connected backwards > > and it fried), any way to troubleshoot one of these things (Chinon FB-354)? > > Hmm... given that there isn't _one_ FDC chip - perhaps you could check > your 8520s? Those control the floppy digital signals (presuming your > problem is that the drive doesn't light up, as opposed to a spinning > floppy that won't read - that can be analog electronics or Paula). > > You could remove the drive, check carefully for shorts so you don't > fry another machine, and try it on another machine (as DF1, to be most > helpful). > > I'd also make sure you didn't dislodge the DF1 jumper on the > motherboard - the A2000 is quirky in how it supports drive selects and > internal/external drive numbers. This shouldn't affect DF0, but it > _will_ affect DF1. > > I guess I should have asked first - you do have the schematics, don't > you? They are at the back of the Tech Ref manual if nowhere else (for > pre-v6 mobos - not sure where to find late-model schematics). > > I guess the point is - determine if it's the Amiga or the floppy drive > first. As for troubleshooting the drive itself, I don't know that a) > there's enough information to successfully poke around in the innards, > or b) you'd be able to find parts to fix if it you could. > The floppy does not spin up or light up, workbench shows a DF0:??? on the screen. I have an external 1011 drive that belongs with my A500 and I can boot from that drive fine. I will check the 8520's in the morning. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Jul 1 04:24:03 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:24:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem In-Reply-To: <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <39292.135.196.233.27.1120209843.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > I noticed the floppy was no longer working. I took the drive out and > didn't > notice any smell or burnt traces (as if I had the power connected > backwards > and it fried), any way to troubleshoot one of these things (Chinon > FB-354)? Last time I had that problem with my A1000 I'd managed to put the floppy cable on offset by 1 pair of pins so it couldn't be seen. Easy mistake to make :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 1 05:52:35 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 10:52:35 +0000 Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem In-Reply-To: <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <1120215155.5030.2.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 01:14 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > I noticed the floppy was no longer working. I took the drive out and didn't > notice any smell or burnt traces (as if I had the power connected backwards > and it fried), any way to troubleshoot one of these things (Chinon FB-354)? 3.5" drive presumably... Check solder joints for the power connector - the power connectors on most 3.5" drives are really badly designed with only the solder joints securing them; it's easy for them to break. Been there a few times... cheers Jules From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jul 1 09:17:51 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 09:17:51 -0500 Subject: Storage Module Device (SMD) interface spec? In-Reply-To: <42C4A2FA.8090807@hachti.de> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050701091645.0239ee80@mail.ubanproductions.com> Hello, Does anyone have a good SMD interface specification document? --tnx --tom From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 1 10:11:37 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:11:37 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120230697.5030.54.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-06-30 at 20:50 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > Since the 380Z seems to be popular at the moment, does anyone have info > on 2 bits that are not properly described in the Information File? > > The first is the dual cassette controller. The pinout of the 7 pin > cassette socket is given, as of course is the schematic of the VDU board > that contains the cassette circuitry. The controller seems to contain a > couple of relays to control the recorders (were these powered from the > system 5V line or a separate power supply?) and switching to allow either > one recorder to be used, or two with one used for recording the other for > playback. It's possible to make some guesses as to how it was wired, but > some real details would be nice Hmm... the couple of references I've seen to it in RML documentation suggest that it was a 3rd party thing, rather than an RML part. They talk as though it was some standardised thing built into dual cassette drives, or possibly that there was some magic box that sat between the 380Z and a pair of standard tape drives. Either way, the impression is that it was nothing to do with RML... RML documentation is all over the darn place though - they're not particularly consistent in a lot of cases, so snippets of info tend to be splattered right across their documentation. > The second is the SIO-2 board. This was a bit-banged serial port using, > IIRC, 3 lines of the user port. 2 ouput lines for TxD and thr reader > control relay, one input for RxD. At least knowing what port bits were > used would be a help... According to the COS 3.4 Reference Manual: "Example programs for driving a 20mA or RS232 serial device via the RML SIO-2 and SIO-2B interfaces connected to the user I/O port can be found in the Option ROM listing" So that might help - if you can find it! I've just checked my pile of RML docs and I haven't got a copy of the option ROM listing :( Mind you, according to Paul Williams' site I have a few docs that aren't in this pile in front of me - so I'll go hunting in the loft in a sec as I must have some more somewhere! ;) cheers Jules From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 1 10:29:12 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:29:12 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? Message-ID: I have not have to time to look at ebay recently. I just did and saw this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5213140640 &rd=1 Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days and nobody has mentioned it here??? Is everybody on vacation??? Bill From allain at panix.com Fri Jul 1 10:41:50 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:41:50 -0400 Subject: Storage Module Device (SMD) interface spec? References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050701091645.0239ee80@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <03a601c57e53$6678b820$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> The Fujitsu Eagle Engineering Manual, Chapter 7, Interface spec., always seemed rather usable to me anyway: http://www.spies.com/aek/pdf/fujitsu/B03P-4655-0001A_2351_Dec84.pdf here, rather: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fujitsu/B03P-4655-0001A_2351_Dec84.pdf ... in case you don't find more... This area looks promising... http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/ THX again to Al. John A. From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Fri Jul 1 10:55:14 2005 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:55:14 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I have not have to time to look at ebay recently. I just did and >saw this: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5213140640 >&rd=1 > >Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days and >nobody has mentioned it here??? There's no guarantee it's an Apple 1. The seller says only he can see "wires and cards" inside. Perhaps it is an Apple ][ in a wooden case? Nobody knows, and without pictures, nobody will know. My take is that the seller knows full well what it is, and is hoping people will think it is an Apple 1 (and judging by the questions at the bottom, they do). People will then drive up the price to some outrageous level. When they get it and realize it's just a //e that someone threw in a wooden case (or maybe not even anything in the Apple line), they'll get mad, but there's nothing they can do because he described it accurately ..... Cynical, yes, but most likely true :-) Rich B. From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jul 1 11:00:55 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:00:55 -0500 Subject: Storage Module Device (SMD) interface spec? In-Reply-To: <03a601c57e53$6678b820$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050701091645.0239ee80@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050701110018.024839d8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Thanks much John! I knew there would be something good on Al's site, but wasn't sure which doc to choose from:-) --tom At 11:41 AM 7/1/2005 -0400, you wrote: >The Fujitsu Eagle Engineering Manual, Chapter 7, Interface spec., >always seemed rather usable to me anyway: >http://www.spies.com/aek/pdf/fujitsu/B03P-4655-0001A_2351_Dec84.pdf >here, rather: >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fujitsu/B03P-4655-0001A_2351_Dec84.pdf >... in case you don't find more... > >This area looks promising... http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/ >THX again to Al. > >John A. From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 1 11:01:36 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:01:36 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507011607.j61G76AC022334@keith.ezwind.net> It could be one of Vince Briel's replicas. He has sold a few in wooden cases via eBay. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Beaudry Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 11:55 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Apple _1_ on ebay??? >I have not have to time to look at ebay recently. I just did and saw >this: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=52131 >40640 >&rd=1 > >Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days and >nobody has mentioned it here??? There's no guarantee it's an Apple 1. The seller says only he can see "wires and cards" inside. Perhaps it is an Apple ][ in a wooden case? Nobody knows, and without pictures, nobody will know. My take is that the seller knows full well what it is, and is hoping people will think it is an Apple 1 (and judging by the questions at the bottom, they do). People will then drive up the price to some outrageous level. When they get it and realize it's just a //e that someone threw in a wooden case (or maybe not even anything in the Apple line), they'll get mad, but there's nothing they can do because he described it accurately ..... Cynical, yes, but most likely true :-) Rich B. From allain at panix.com Fri Jul 1 10:58:00 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:58:00 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? References: Message-ID: <03b301c57e55$b4ffa560$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Two great reasons to not mention it: o The depressed price (now, anyway) makes eBay look fantastic for a collector, and half the list would have to vehemently disagree with that conclusion. o Every last person discovering this listing (except you ) would keep it a secret so as to hold the price down. It's in AZ for those listers willing to go take a look... John A. From nerdware at ctgonline.org Fri Jul 1 11:04:06 2005 From: nerdware at ctgonline.org (nerdware at ctgonline.org) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:04:06 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? Message-ID: <200507011604.j61G46U6008867@cerebus.winsite.com> If you read his answers, he's being very evasive as well. All it would take is to open the thing up and see if the mobo says "Apple Computer" on it. Unless the case is completely glued together, this is a 4-minute task. He's deliberately sidestepping the issue, probably because, as you suspect, he knows it's really nothing special. If he would verify that it's an Apple I, then there's no way he'd sell it as cheap as it's going. However, if it's just a ][e, monitor, and some homebrew breadboard thing, then his evasiveness is driving the price right up to "stupid". paul ORIGINAL MESSAGE FOLLOWS: >I have not have to time to look at ebay recently. I just did and >saw this: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5213140640 >&rd=1 > >Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days and >nobody has mentioned it here??? There's no guarantee it's an Apple 1. The seller says only he can see "wires and cards" inside. Perhaps it is an Apple ][ in a wooden case? Nobody knows, and without pictures, nobody will know. My take is that the seller knows full well what it is, and is hoping people will think it is an Apple 1 (and judging by the questions at the bottom, they do). People will then drive up the price to some outrageous level. When they get it and realize it's just a //e that someone threw in a wooden case (or maybe not even anything in the Apple line), they'll get mad, but there's nothing they can do because he described it accurately ..... Cynical, yes, but most likely true :-) Rich B. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jul 1 11:05:23 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:05:23 -0500 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050701110341.0524ba00@mail> At 10:29 AM 7/1/2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5213140640 >Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days and >nobody has mentioned it here??? Several visitors asked questions, and his answers continue to play coy. If someone told him that part of the auction was an Apple I worth $5,000, don't you think he'd bother to halt the auction, take a picture to show the inside of the homemade keyboard, and settle the question? - John From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 1 11:13:17 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:13:17 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507011618.j61GIfjZ022492@keith.ezwind.net> Yeah, something smells fishy... I am looking at the seller's other auctions... one is for a old (early/mid-1990s) NEC tablet computer, and he says it's "a great way to try out and play with a tablet PC" -- implying that it's a modern "Tablet PC" with the up-to-date Windows apps, etc. -- and also that in order to "not disturb the original packing, I did not test this item. I have every reason to believe it works." His other auction is for a TRS-80 Model 3, and he emphasizes that "I understand how important this item is to history." Geez, it's not an Apple 1, it's a TRS-80, ya know? :) So either he's really stupid or really a scammer. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard Beaudry Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 11:55 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Apple _1_ on ebay??? >I have not have to time to look at ebay recently. I just did and saw >this: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=52131 >40640 >&rd=1 > >Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days and >nobody has mentioned it here??? There's no guarantee it's an Apple 1. The seller says only he can see "wires and cards" inside. Perhaps it is an Apple ][ in a wooden case? Nobody knows, and without pictures, nobody will know. My take is that the seller knows full well what it is, and is hoping people will think it is an Apple 1 (and judging by the questions at the bottom, they do). People will then drive up the price to some outrageous level. When they get it and realize it's just a //e that someone threw in a wooden case (or maybe not even anything in the Apple line), they'll get mad, but there's nothing they can do because he described it accurately ..... Cynical, yes, but most likely true :-) Rich B. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 1 11:17:00 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 12:17:00 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <03b301c57e55$b4ffa560$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: > Two great reasons to not mention it: > o The depressed price (now, anyway) makes eBay > look fantastic for a collector, and half the list would have > to vehemently disagree with that conclusion. > o Every last person discovering this listing (except you ) > would keep it a secret so as to hold the price down. Believe me, I considered #2 (above). However: 1) It has been in a banner ad for five days. and 2) It has 20 bids on it including a couple of known ebay "deep pocket" bidders. My real question was whether anybody really thought it was a _1_ and what the bidding would go to if it was. For the record, I'm pretty sure that it is NOT an OSI product. The keyboard is not right for OSI. Bill From cb at mythtech.net Fri Jul 1 11:18:34 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:18:34 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? Message-ID: >My take is that the seller knows full well what it is, and is hoping >people will think it is an Apple 1 (and judging by the questions at >the bottom, they do). People will then drive up the price to some >outrageous level. When they get it and realize it's just a //e that >someone threw in a wooden case (or maybe not even anything in the >Apple line), they'll get mad, but there's nothing they can do because >he described it accurately ..... I was just writing up the exact same comment. You just type faster then me. If the guy is selling computers on ebay, he knows enough to do some googling on the items. An Apple 1 would be pretty obvious if he spent just a few minutes looking for info about the stuff in the box. Also, he mentions he looked in the box, but then didn't post pictures. He plays it up as "I just don't know what this is", and still doesn't post internal pictures. About the only reason I see for that is he knows it isn't an Apple 1, and like you said, is hoping people will bid it way up thinking they are getting a steal. Which depending on what is in that box, has already happened. $300 for an Apple IIe, even with drives and monitor is pretty high. -chris From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 1 11:48:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I have not have to time to look at ebay recently. I just did and > saw this: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5213140640 > &rd=1 > > Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days and > nobody has mentioned it here??? > > Is everybody on vacation??? There is absolutely no evidence this is an Apple-1. If you'll notice, the seller is being unusually vague about it, neither confirming nor denying that this is an Apple-1. This is most likely on purpose. If it was an Apple-1, he'd have made the effort to check. No one is as naive and stupid as the seller makes himself out to be, especially someone with 255 feedback. The feedback responses only fuel the excitement, but if you notice, all the responses are based on completely unsubstantiated assumptions. Here's the most telling exchange: Q: STOP THIS AUCTION IMMEDIATELY!!!!! i can't let you throw away a perfect specimen such as that wooden computer. It is an original apple computer. A: I pride myself in great packing. I have great feedback from my packing. I pack with care. Whoever wins this auction will get items packed with care. WTF? Seems like a shill comment to me to further the speculation. This is a mystery grab bag auction, but the bag has a turd in it. Beware. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 1 11:55:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 09:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Two great reasons to not mention it: > > o The depressed price (now, anyway) makes eBay > > look fantastic for a collector, and half the list would have > > to vehemently disagree with that conclusion. > > o Every last person discovering this listing (except you ) > > would keep it a secret so as to hold the price down. > > Believe me, I considered #2 (above). However: > > 1) It has been in a banner ad for five days. ? > 2) It has 20 bids on it including a couple of known ebay "deep pocket" > bidders. So? It's been shown time and again that some of these deep pockets have more money than brains, so why should their interest in it be any indicator of authenticity? > My real question was whether anybody really thought it was a _1_ and > what the bidding would go to if it was. For the record, I'm pretty > sure that it is NOT an OSI product. The keyboard is not right for OSI. It has what looks to be holes drilled in a circular arrangement on the upper right-hand side, probably for a speaker mounted underneath. I've never, ever, ever seen any Apple-1 with a speaker. There are three knobs along the left side that look like potentiometers. I'm sure everyone bidding thinks it's a 1. Otherwise, why the hell would anyone pay $305 (so far) for an Apple //e unless they're stupid? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Jul 1 12:14:16 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:14:16 -0700 Subject: Any IBM POWER/AIX fans out there In-Reply-To: <200507010114.j611DsGQ065979@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507010114.j611DsGQ065979@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Even if you don't note down the order, it's fairly easy to determine by trial and erorr if yoyu have the right key -- try each pin in the first hole until you find one that's level with the top of the plug (inner cylinder), repeat for all the other holes. -tony Not so easy with the Medeco locks used on RS/6000- they need both the height of the cut and the angle of the cut to match the key. Not sure how many keys IBM used, but there are definitely more than 1. standard key ^-^^__^>, from the top | || | | Medico from the top / | \ \ / Scott Quinn From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 1 12:13:15 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 13:13:15 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > o Every last person discovering this listing (except you ) > > > would keep it a secret so as to hold the price down. > > > > Believe me, I considered #2 (above). However: > > > > 1) It has been in a banner ad for five days. > > ? > > > 2) It has 20 bids on it including a couple of known ebay "deep pocket" > > bidders. > > So? It's been shown time and again that some of these deep pockets have > more money than brains, so why should their interest in it be any > indicator of authenticity? No, no. you misunderstand me. My reply was in response to the don't let the "secret" out aspect of the message I quoted. I was asserting that it was not a secret and there was no potential for a bargain. Bill From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 1 12:18:25 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:18:25 +0000 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120238305.5030.91.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 09:48 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > I have not have to time to look at ebay recently. I just did and > > saw this: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5213140640 > > &rd=1 > > > > Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days and > > nobody has mentioned it here??? > > > > Is everybody on vacation??? > > There is absolutely no evidence this is an Apple-1. Far as I can tell, there's not even any evidence that it's an Apple at all. Lots of keyboards from the era of wooden-cased machines look very similar, and that photo's too small to really make anything out. I've seen some *really* bad wooden-cased computers before... :) > This is a mystery grab bag auction, but the bag has a turd in it. A wooden turd... From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 1 12:34:54 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:34:54 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <1120238305.5030.91.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200507011739.j61Hdwuw023322@keith.ezwind.net> We should start the "Darwin Pool" -- bet on how high it'll go for -- then find a real pool, and throw the buyer and seller in it. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 1:18 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Apple _1_ on ebay??? On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 09:48 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > I have not have to time to look at ebay recently. I just did and > > saw this: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=52 > > 13140640 > > &rd=1 > > > > Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days and > > nobody has mentioned it here??? > > > > Is everybody on vacation??? > > There is absolutely no evidence this is an Apple-1. Far as I can tell, there's not even any evidence that it's an Apple at all. Lots of keyboards from the era of wooden-cased machines look very similar, and that photo's too small to really make anything out. I've seen some *really* bad wooden-cased computers before... :) > This is a mystery grab bag auction, but the bag has a turd in it. A wooden turd... From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jul 1 12:47:31 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:47:31 -0700 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <200507011739.j61Hdwuw023322@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507011739.j61Hdwuw023322@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200507011047.31669.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 01 July 2005 10:34, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > We should start the "Darwin Pool" -- bet on how high it'll go for -- then > find a real pool, and throw the buyer and seller in it. > I sent the seller an email asking him to "clarify" what the board(s) looked like in the wooden box - size, shape, number, etc. As I suspected would happen, he didn't answer me. I'm in agreement with what has been stated previously - this guy is betting on folks assuming him to be ignorant - and that they'll get an Apple 1 for a song. Fat chance - this guy is a con. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 1 13:21:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 11:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > > o Every last person discovering this listing (except you ) > > > > would keep it a secret so as to hold the price down. > > > > > > Believe me, I considered #2 (above). However: > > > > > > 1) It has been in a banner ad for five days. > > > > ? > > > > > 2) It has 20 bids on it including a couple of known ebay "deep pocket" > > > bidders. > > > > So? It's been shown time and again that some of these deep pockets have > > more money than brains, so why should their interest in it be any > > indicator of authenticity? > > No, no. you misunderstand me. My reply was in response to the > don't let the "secret" out aspect of the message I quoted. I was > asserting that it was not a secret and there was no potential for > a bargain. Oh, sorry :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Jul 1 14:08:00 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 20:08:00 +0100 Subject: Anyone want any LaserJet II/III parts? Message-ID: <8a72c7834d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Hi folks, I've got a pair of Laserjet IIIs here I'm parting out - anyone want any bits? Not sure what works and what doesn't yet - I'm fairly sure that the laser assembly, fiber cable and most of the mechanics are in working order, but I need to power up and test them. Basically, tell me what part you want - bonus points if you can tell me whereabouts in the machine it fits (or which page of the Service Manual it's covered in). Yours for cost of postage, plus a few quid to cover my time. Whatever doesn't sell gets put on ebay, and whatever doesn't sell gets thrown in a skip with the next batch of electrical crap I dispose of. It's probably worth pointing out that the formatter board (and most of the other bits) will IIRC also work in a Laserjet II and most other Canon SX-engine printers. The advantage being that the LJ3 formatter will enable RET (resolution enhancement) on an LJ2. There's a big list of SX-engine machines on fixyourownprinter.com - can't remember the exact URL off hand though. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI From rcini at optonline.net Fri Jul 1 14:37:20 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:37:20 -0400 Subject: Problems using VG PROM/RAM in 8800b Message-ID: <002c01c57e74$4bd69f70$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: I want to get the Turnkey Monitor running on my 8800b. I have a VG PROM/RAM board (which has 1k of RAM and an EPROM programmer) and some 2716 EPROMS. I made an adapter so I can use 2716 chips in the 2708 sockets. So far, so good. I configured the board for $C000, no RAM and all other jumpers per the default for the board with the following exceptions: (1) "Use PRESET or POC for power-on/reset jump" The defaultis for the POC signal to be connected to the reset circuitry on the VG PROM board. The other jumper option is to connect PRESET to the reset circuit on the VG PROM board. This is now set for the PRESET line to be connected to the board's POR circuit. I don't have a schematic so I don't know what this is doing exactly. (2) "Phantom generated if power-on/reset" This disables other memory boards on reset so it can respond to the CPU reset jump to location 0 (making the board an auto-start board). I cut this jumper. (3) "Jump to PROM/RAM board if power-on/reset" This causes the board to respond to the CPU jump to location 0 on RESET. I set this jumper to the equivalent of disable. With this configuration, I can't EXAMINE or DEPOSIT to/from any location. When I remove the board, the Altair responds normally, so it definitely is this board. Does anyone have any experience using this board in an Altair (or other non-Vector) system? What's a working configuration for this? Does anyone have a spare generic ROM board I can buy/trade for? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 1 14:52:04 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 15:52:04 -0400 Subject: VCF East 3.0 announcement In-Reply-To: <42C36854.8020804@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200507011957.j61Jvhdx024449@keith.ezwind.net> Given the comments below, now's a good a time to announce * tentative * plans for VCF East 3.0 next spring. As some cctalk'ers know, we've got a club here in the mid-Atlantic region called MARCH -- Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists. Yes, we know it's dorky name, but it's easy to speak and explain. We are temporarily based in a Yahoo group at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ and we've got a real site under construction. Our club's first event was a kick-ass exhibit at the Trenton Computer Festival's 30th anniversary show in April. We emerged from TCF with enough confidence to ask Sellam for the right to host VCF East 3.0, and he consented. We're planning it as a one-day show sometime in March 2006. We haven't discussed an exact date, but I imagine we'll aim for the end of the month, to hopefully avoid snowfall. The venue will probably be the InfoAge Learning Center, located in Wall, N.J., by the shore. Wall is located about one hour east of Trenton, one hour north of Atlantic City, and 90 minutes south of Manhattan. By train, you can take the Amtrak from Trenton to AC, and then rent a car, or take NJ Transit from Manhattan directly to Wall. You can also fly into Newark or Philadelphia, or get a smaller plane to Trenton or AC. By car, Wall is right off of two majors highways (I-195 and the Garden State Parkway). It's the red star on the map at http://tinyurl.com/cj8kp Our club is currently forming a computer museum at InfoAge's facility. For details about InfoAge, which is extremely "under construction", see http://www.infoage.org -- we're inheriting their existing computer collection which even includes a small part of the ENIAC. Side events to our edition of VCF could include a tour of Camp Evans (the former Army radio research center which is where InfoAge is based) and a Nerd Trivia Contest. At http://www.visitmonmouth.com/tourism/attractions.asp you can find general tourist information about the region. Comments / suggestions are welcome. Better yet, if you live in the mid-Atlantic region, check out MARCH. - Evan K. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Chomko Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2005 11:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Washington Post article on Classic Computers Yeah, the article was great! It was well taken here. Someone who knows me asked about it. I was proud to mention that I sent it to the list, and knew a few folks mentioned. We had a nice walk down memory lane. When is VCF East coming to DC?!?! Eric Michael Nadeau wrote: >>Sweet plug!! :) >> >> >>>How much would his Apple sell for? He isn't sure. >>> >>>Ismail estimates no more than $300, if Ballos has all the original >>>materials; author Nadeau puts it at a more modest $200. > > > I haven't seen the article, but the interview made me nervous. I had > to keep correcting him, and he was obviously angling for me to give him high prices. > I'm glad the article seems to have turned out OK. > > >>Oh well, I still have to learn that the caveats never get through the >>noise when you're talking to a reporter. I told him $300 if it's >>brand new, in the box, all the manuals, original system disks etc. >> >> >>>For now, it seems, the Apple IIc that Ballos got for Christmas in >>>1986 is still a tad too young to be worth real money. >> >>Yeah, keep waiting. >> >>Anyway, one of the better articles on the subject I've read. Not too >>many errors and they were very minor at that. >> >>-- >> >>Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > > Festival > >>---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>---- > > ---- > >>International Man of Intrigue and Danger > > http://www.vintage.org > >>[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > > mputers ] > >>[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > >> > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jul 1 14:57:42 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:57:42 -0400 Subject: Picked up some core memory today! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050701155742.00a50640@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I went back to Melbourne today and looked through two pallets that have been packed up for a LONG time. On one of them I found a couple of MJ11-BY chassis. Both chassis were crammed full of core memory!! The core is a set of three cards cabled together; a G236, a G116 and a H224C. I've searched the net for information about these and one site says that it's for the PDP-8!! (I WISH!) But I don't think so. None of the cards are listed in Megans DEC Field Guide. Can someone tell me what I have here? Joe From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Jul 1 15:12:36 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 15:12:36 -0500 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <1120238305.5030.91.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1120238305.5030.91.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050701151236.5cec4bb5.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:18:25 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 09:48 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > > > I have not have to time to look at ebay recently. I just did and > > > saw this: > > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5213140640 > > > &rd=1 > > > > > > Somebody has put an Apple 1 up, it has been there for five days > > > and nobody has mentioned it here??? > > > > > > Is everybody on vacation??? > > > > There is absolutely no evidence this is an Apple-1. > > Far as I can tell, there's not even any evidence that it's an Apple at > all. Lots of keyboards from the era of wooden-cased machines look very > similar, and that photo's too small to really make anything out. > Plus the fact that the 'wooden case' on an Apple I would be whatever the original owner had installed the Apple I in. The Apple 1 was sold from Apple as a bare circuit board, and you attached whatever keyboard you wanted in whatever enclosure you wanted. You could have installed it in a brushed aluminum or Bondi Blue case if you chose. Or in a gutted Lear-Siegler ADM3a case if you wanted 'prior art' on 'trade dress' for the iMac. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Jul 1 15:15:52 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 15:15:52 -0500 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <200507011618.j61GIfjZ022492@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507011618.j61GIfjZ022492@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050701151552.5cc9ba50.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 12:13:17 -0400 "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" wrote: > Yeah, something smells fishy... I am looking at the seller's other > auctions... one is for a old (early/mid-1990s) NEC tablet computer, > and he says it's "a great way to try out and play with a tablet PC" -- > implying that it's a modern "Tablet PC" with the up-to-date Windows > apps, etc. -- and also that in order to "not disturb the original > packing, I did not test this item. I have every reason to believe it > works." His other auction is for a TRS-80 Model 3, and he emphasizes > that "I understand how important this item is to history." Geez, it's > not an Apple 1, it's a TRS-80, ya know? :) > Well, a TRS-80, if it's a model 1, and not a model 3, arguably is more important to history than an Apple 1 (though far, far more common). The Apple 1 was just one of a number of hobby circuit-board-only computers on the market at the time. The TRS-80 was one of the first big _successful_ computers people really used. From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jul 1 15:19:40 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 15:19:40 -0500 Subject: Picked up some core memory today! In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050701155742.00a50640@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050701151806.02403fe8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Those were likely used with an 11/70. Each set of three cards yields 32KW of 18bit memory. --tom At 03:57 PM 7/1/2005 -0400, you wrote: > I went back to Melbourne today and looked through two pallets that have >been packed up for a LONG time. On one of them I found a couple of MJ11-BY >chassis. Both chassis were crammed full of core memory!! The core is a set >of three cards cabled together; a G236, a G116 and a H224C. I've searched >the net for information about these and one site says that it's for the >PDP-8!! (I WISH!) But I don't think so. None of the cards are listed in >Megans DEC Field Guide. Can someone tell me what I have here? > > Joe From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 1 15:45:51 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:45:51 -0700 Subject: Picked up some core memory today! Message-ID: <73417ec9f98bed427d6a4a028c506f69@bitsavers.org> I found a couple of MJ11-BY chassis. Can someone tell me what I have here? -- 11/70 core memory boxes From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 1 15:46:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 13:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <20050701151552.5cc9ba50.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Well, a TRS-80, if it's a model 1, and not a model 3, arguably is more > important to history than an Apple 1 (though far, far more common). The > Apple 1 was just one of a number of hobby circuit-board-only computers > on the market at the time. The TRS-80 was one of the first big > _successful_ computers people really used. Arguably, being the key. The Apple-1 is the predecessor to the Apple ][. which was far more successful than the TRS-80 line, though it was successful in its own right. The significance of the Apple-1 in April 1976 was that, nothwithstanding the Sol-20, it was pretty much everything you needed to get going with a computer. It integrated the CPU, video interface, and had BASIC in ROM. You did have to add the other half of the power supply (transformers) and a keyboard, but otherwise it was a complete computer on a single board. This was significant for the day. Most other computers of the era required you to buy a whole bunch of pieces of hardware and somehow figure out how to put it all together and make it work. The Apple ][ was really just a refined Apple 1 but with important enhancements (graphics being one) and everything that a consumer computer should've been. The Apple ][ came to market in the spring of 1977. The TRS-80 came out later in the fall of that year. There was nothing the first TRS-80 was that the Apple ][ wasn't. In terms of capability, the TRS-80 was somewhere between the Apple-1 and ][. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 1 16:01:17 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:01:17 -0400 Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> <1120215155.5030.2.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <011c01c57e80$06801c60$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 6:52 AM Subject: Re: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem > On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 01:14 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > > I noticed the floppy was no longer working. I took the drive out and didn't > > notice any smell or burnt traces (as if I had the power connected backwards > > and it fried), any way to troubleshoot one of these things (Chinon FB-354)? > > 3.5" drive presumably... > > Check solder joints for the power connector - the power connectors on > most 3.5" drives are really badly designed with only the solder joints > securing them; it's easy for them to break. Been there a few times... > > cheers > > Jules > I will try that next From ICS at Core.com Fri Jul 1 16:13:17 2005 From: ICS at Core.com (George Wiegand) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:13:17 -0400 Subject: 14" harddrive and it's controller References: <42C4A2FA.8090807@hachti.de> Message-ID: <010201c57e81$b4298cb0$8a84efd1@ics63szde1vn50> Well, what ever happens, don't scrap the drive, someone should appreciate it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philipp Hachtmann" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 9:57 PM Subject: 14" harddrive and it's controller > Hi folks, > > I have made some photos of my Ampex drive and the Emulex SC02/c. > > They can be found here: > http://pdp8.hachti.de/gallery/pdp11/ > > I urgently need help. Nothing works well at the moment. And I don't get > the hardware format routine of the controller to work. > > Who has experience? Who has documentation? Original Emulex software? If > I don't find anything I will have to scrap disk and controller - because > I am very tight in space and won't store big and heavy things if they > are not working... > > > Best regards, > > Philipp :-) > > > > > > _____________________________________________________ > This message scanned for viruses by CoreComm > From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 1 16:14:08 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:14:08 -0400 Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <012901c57e81$d245fc10$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 1:30 AM Subject: Re: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem > On 7/1/05, Teo Zenios wrote: > > I was messing around with my Amiga 2000HD today (installing a 2.04 Kickstart > > Rom to replace the 1.3 Kickstart among other things) and now my internal > > floppy is dead. The drive worked fine after I changed the rom and the HD and > > installed workbench 2.04, it was when I reassembled the system and rebooted > > I noticed the floppy was no longer working. I took the drive out and didn't > > notice any smell or burnt traces (as if I had the power connected backwards > > and it fried), any way to troubleshoot one of these things (Chinon FB-354)? > > Hmm... given that there isn't _one_ FDC chip - perhaps you could check > your 8520s? Those control the floppy digital signals (presuming your > problem is that the drive doesn't light up, as opposed to a spinning > floppy that won't read - that can be analog electronics or Paula). > > You could remove the drive, check carefully for shorts so you don't > fry another machine, and try it on another machine (as DF1, to be most > helpful). > > I'd also make sure you didn't dislodge the DF1 jumper on the > motherboard - the A2000 is quirky in how it supports drive selects and > internal/external drive numbers. This shouldn't affect DF0, but it > _will_ affect DF1. > > I guess I should have asked first - you do have the schematics, don't > you? They are at the back of the Tech Ref manual if nowhere else (for > pre-v6 mobos - not sure where to find late-model schematics). > > I guess the point is - determine if it's the Amiga or the floppy drive > first. As for troubleshooting the drive itself, I don't know that a) > there's enough information to successfully poke around in the innards, > or b) you'd be able to find parts to fix if it you could. > Jumper 301 is still in the open position (for a single drive). The two 8520's looked ok (nothing shorting pins together or stuff like that, no signs of overheating). I swapped the 2 chips around and still have the same result (external Df2: works while the internal DF0: is dead). I checked the floppy cable and didn't see anything out of the ordinary (except a pin in what looks like position 2 of the cable but I think that is a key, since the motherboard does not look like it has a broken pin on it). At this point I think it either the floppy cable has a bad line, or the drive is just dead. Since the amiga cable does not look like a standard floppy cable I think I will try setting the drive for Df1: and shorting Jumper 301 to see if its recognized at all. I did some research and quite a few older DD 3.5" PC drives can be jumpered to Amiga mode (ofcourse I don't have any on the list). From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Jul 1 16:21:04 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 22:21:04 +0100 Subject: Any IBM Power / AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C5B3C0.6030202@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>And furthermore, if you strip the pins out carefully, making notes and >>measuring them, then you will be able to put them back in exactly as they >>came out. Useful, if you ever get the real key. > > > Even if you don't note down the order, it's fairly easy to determine by > trial and erorr if yoyu have the right key -- try each pin in the first > hole until you find one that's level with the top of the plug (inner > cylinder), repeat for all the other holes. > > -tony > And if you're really hardcore (Tony) then you could probably get any key that physically fitted into the lock, then make your own pins from brazing rod. Gordon. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 1 16:31:11 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:31:11 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > > > o Every last person discovering this listing (except you ) > > > > > would keep it a secret so as to hold the price down. > > > > > > > > Believe me, I considered #2 (above). However: > > > > > > > > 1) It has been in a banner ad for five days. > > > > > > ? > > > > > > > 2) It has 20 bids on it including a couple of known ebay > "deep pocket" > > > > bidders. > > > > > > So? It's been shown time and again that some of these deep > pockets have > > > more money than brains, so why should their interest in it be any > > > indicator of authenticity? > > > > No, no. you misunderstand me. My reply was in response to the > > don't let the "secret" out aspect of the message I quoted. I was > > asserting that it was not a secret and there was no potential for > > a bargain. > > Oh, sorry :) > Well, $2550! No bargain and I don't think anyone on the list was a big bidder on it. I must say that pooh-kie36 let me down... I bet that he/she would bid it to at least $5000. Now I do find myself curious as to just what's in the box. Anybody know collectrhc? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 1 16:47:56 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 14:47:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Medeco lock on IBM computer (was: Any IBM Power/AIX fans out there? In-Reply-To: <42C5B3C0.6030202@gjcp.net> References: <42C5B3C0.6030202@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20050701143808.Q19564@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > And if you're really hardcore (Tony) then you could probably get any key > that physically fitted into the lock, then make your own pins from > brazing rod. Tony is hardcore enough to mill his own key to fit the keyway; and turn pins on a lathe. Medeco locks are very difficult to pick. If you turn spool pins, with "false gates" both vertically and rotationally, they would be way harder to pick than would be reasonable for the use. Somewhere at the bottom of my biggest pile of junk, I have a Medeco lock from a front panel. It yousta be on the table behind tha Amiga; NO idea where it is now. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 1 17:14:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 15:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Well, $2550! No bargain and I don't think anyone on the list was a big > bidder on it. I must say that pooh-kie36 let me down... I bet that > he/she would bid it to at least $5000. Now I do find myself curious as > to just what's in the box. Anybody know collectrhc? I sent the "winning" bidder an e-mail asking him/her to contact me once they receive the unit so I can add their "Apple-1" to my registry. I also asked them what compelled them to bid on it. Hahahaha. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 1 17:32:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:32:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120230697.5030.54.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 1, 5 03:11:37 pm Message-ID: > > The first is the dual cassette controller. The pinout of the 7 pin [...] > Hmm... the couple of references I've seen to it in RML documentation > suggest that it was a 3rd party thing, rather than an RML part. They I didn;'t get that impression at all.... > talk as though it was some standardised thing built into dual cassette > drives, or possibly that there was some magic box that sat between the > 380Z and a pair of standard tape drives. It's certainly a box that goes between the 380Z's cassette socket and a pair of normal recorders. It also would appear (from re-reading the minimal instructions I have) that it took power from the 5V output on the cassette socket. It clearly contains a couple of relays and drivers for them (the 'motor' lines on the 7 pin DIN socket are outputs from a TTL latch chip). I assume it also cnntained switching for the audio signals depending on whether one or two recorders were used. But I don't know the details. Even a list of the front panel controls and connectors would be a start... > > Either way, the impression is that it was nothing to do with RML... I've never seen any other machine with this sort of cassette connector (in particular audio I/O and TTL level motor control lines). [Bit-banged SIO-2] > According to the COS 3.4 Reference Manual: "Example programs for driving > a 20mA or RS232 serial device via the RML SIO-2 and SIO-2B interfaces > connected to the user I/O port can be found in the Option ROM listing" > > So that might help - if you can find it! I've just checked my pile of > RML docs and I haven't got a copy of the option ROM listing :( Incidentally, do you have the COS (monitor ROM) source listings? They were available from RML, but I didn't get them with my machine, alas. There is an example program for reading a tape from an ASR33 in the Information File. It would appear that the reader relay is controlled by output bit 1, and that RxD comes in on input bit 0. It would be logical if output bit 0 was TzD, therefore, but I wouldn't put money on it :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 1 17:37:04 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:37:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Any IBM POWER/AIX fans out there In-Reply-To: from "Scott Quinn" at Jul 1, 5 10:14:16 am Message-ID: > > Even if you don't note down the order, it's fairly easy to determine by > trial and erorr if yoyu have the right key -- try each pin in the first > hole until you find one that's level with the top of the plug (inner > cylinder), repeat for all the other holes. > > -tony > > Not so easy with the Medeco locks used on RS/6000- they need both the > height of the cut and the angle of the cut to match the key. Not sure > how many keys IBM used, but there are definitely more than 1. > > standard key ^-^^__^>, from the top | || | | Medico from the top > / | \ \ / Oh, it's one of those... OK... It doesn't make it much harder to put the pins back. If you have a key that you _know_ should work with that set of pins, you can try the pins in the first hole in the plug until you find a pin that is (a) flush with the top of the plug and (b) rotated to the right position too. Then repeat for all the other holes. -tony From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Jul 1 18:27:38 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <200507011607.j61G76AC022334@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050701232738.19648.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> > There's no guarantee it's an Apple 1. The seller > says only he can see > "wires and cards" inside. Perhaps it is an Apple ][ > in a wooden case? > Nobody knows, and without pictures, nobody will > know. I asked the seller for some pictures "under the hood" of that machine, and was told that it had already been boxed up for shipment. I'd imagine that if the really thought it was an Apple I, he'd oblige, so it seems clear that he expected to gain more from the uninformed speculation of the potential buyers. --Bill From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 1 18:37:07 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 19:37:07 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? References: <20050701232738.19648.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000c01c57e95$cbccf140$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Maddox" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 7:27 PM Subject: RE: Apple _1_ on ebay??? > > There's no guarantee it's an Apple 1. The seller > > says only he can see > > "wires and cards" inside. Perhaps it is an Apple ][ > > in a wooden case? > > Nobody knows, and without pictures, nobody will > > know. > > I asked the seller for some pictures "under the hood" > of that machine, and was told that it had already been > boxed up for shipment. I'd imagine that if the really > thought it was an Apple I, he'd oblige, so it seems > clear that he expected to gain more from the > uninformed speculation of the potential buyers. > > --Bill > There is a sucker born every minute. Did you see the other things the winner has bid on, he must have deep pockets (Alonzo Mourning used Nikes $399, Deon Sanders sweaty Jersey $1800, NRI 832 $1713.88). I don't think this guy in Texas is going to be short on the rent if this wooden box is holding an Apple II board. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 1 18:51:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <20050701232738.19648.qmail@web81305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, William Maddox wrote: > > There's no guarantee it's an Apple 1. The seller says only he can see > > "wires and cards" inside. Perhaps it is an Apple ][ in a wooden case? > > Nobody knows, and without pictures, nobody will know. > > I asked the seller for some pictures "under the hood" of that machine, > and was told that it had already been boxed up for shipment. I'd imagine > that if the really thought it was an Apple I, he'd oblige, so it seems > clear that he expected to gain more from the uninformed speculation of > the potential buyers. Me too, but I didn't get the courtesy of a reply. But wow, he's fast. Already has it boxed up for shipping, does he? Right. What a dick. But I gotta say, the buyer is an even bigger dick. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 1 18:57:45 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 16:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <000c01c57e95$cbccf140$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > There is a sucker born every minute. Did you see the other things the winner > has bid on, he must have deep pockets (Alonzo Mourning used Nikes $399, Deon > Sanders sweaty Jersey $1800, NRI 832 $1713.88). Maybe he just likes to smell things that were worn by big athletic black men. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Fri Jul 1 19:13:26 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:13:26 -0700 Subject: PI/old IRIX questions Message-ID: Got my 4D/25 TG running (Thanks, Robert) with a new 3010 FPU. I have IRIX 5.3, but even in 32MB it's somewhat slow and a bit unstable. Has anyone on the list used 4.0.5 or 3.3? I have talked with someone in the area who has a set of 3.3 tapes, but I don't want to bother him if there are usability issues, and I haven't talked with anyone about 4.0.5. Is there anyone who has used these? All i've seen are screenshots and the fact that 3.3 is SysVr3+NeWS(?) and 4 is SysVr3(+some r4)+X11, and that the IDO is needed for any practical work. I have v5.3 & v6.5 Indigo2s, so I don't need it for 'serious' work, just looking for recommendations & pointers. -Scott Quinn From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Jul 1 19:15:03 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 01:15:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: References: <000c01c57e95$cbccf140$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <1260.82.152.112.73.1120263303.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > On Fri, 1 Jul 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> There is a sucker born every minute. Did you see the other things the >> winner >> has bid on, he must have deep pockets (Alonzo Mourning used Nikes $399, >> Deon >> Sanders sweaty Jersey $1800, NRI 832 $1713.88). > > Maybe he just likes to smell things that were worn by big athletic black > men. hahaha, I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that! Also, has has been previously mentioned that wooden thing can't be an apple 1 given that the apple 1 cases I've seen have had the keyboard at the end of the board which is lengthways, and that case isn't as deep as the keyboard is wide if you see what I mean :) Also, 'cards and wires?' Congrats to the man for duping the foolish..... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jul 1 19:22:34 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 19:22:34 -0500 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C5DE4A.9090102@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Me too, but I didn't get the courtesy of a reply. But wow, he's fast. > Already has it boxed up for shipping, does he? Right. What a dick. But > I gotta say, the buyer is an even bigger dick. Umm, when I put stuff up for non-local sale, I usually pack it *before* I list it. That lets me give exact quotes on shipping. Of course, I'm usually a lot more clear on what I'm selling, too, and for $2500, I think I'd cut some tape. Doc From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jul 1 19:31:20 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 20:31:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <42C5DE4A.9090102@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: > Umm, when I put stuff up for non-local sale, I usually pack it > *before* I list it. That lets me give exact quotes on shipping. This is actually quite common amongst Ebay sellers. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jul 1 19:24:59 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2005 20:24:59 -0400 Subject: Netcom HV1148 chassis for DEC? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050701202459.00a722e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I found one of these today. Nice chassis, it's obvioulsly made for DEC cards and has 12 Quad width card slots. However I don't know if it's Omnibus or what. Anybody know? Joe From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 1 19:55:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:55:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <1260.82.152.112.73.1120263303.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jul 2005, Witchy wrote: > hahaha, I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that! Also, has has been > previously mentioned that wooden thing can't be an apple 1 given that the > apple 1 cases I've seen have had the keyboard at the end of the board > which is lengthways, and that case isn't as deep as the keyboard is wide > if you see what I mean :) Also, 'cards and wires?' Congrats to the man for > duping the foolish..... Eh. I looked at that too, but I think the case has the right dimensions to accomodate the Apple-1 motherboard. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Jul 1 20:09:58 2005 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 21:09:58 EDT Subject: Old PS/2 Hard Drives Message-ID: In a message dated 6/30/2005 12:22:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, chenmel at earthlink.net writes: This past weekend I picked up an old PS/2 machine. It's a Microchannel system, a Model 65sx (I think). The only thing missing in it is the hard drive. It has one of those 3-1/2" drives with the full-length card-edge connectors on it, I think 50 pins wide or so, that provides all connections including power. I would like to get it up and running just to have around as another working system (also got a Compaq Portable III at the same auction for $10 in a leather case!). Any suggestions where I could find such a drive easily? Is this machine's HD interface an ST-506 variant, EISA, or what? --------- 8565 is a 386DX-25 I think with a SCSI controller instead of ESDI that the model 60 used. Take note of what adaptor cards are installed. This machine is a floppy based reference disk instead of using an IML partition so you will need to build a reference disk with all the adf files on it. If parts are needed, I can help with whatever is needed. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 1 20:48:59 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 18:48:59 -0700 Subject: CS/80 disc gceometry In-Reply-To: <200506292118.j5TLIRAo027194@lots.reanimators.org> References: <200506291719.j5THJo9m022933@lots.reanimators.org> <0f16317bad3d6d502021f0c461bef900@bitsavers.org> <200506291913.j5TJDFWp025059@lots.reanimators.org> <200506292009.j5TK9tg7026100@lots.reanimators.org> <3d412679c56bf40d3f266a5c0e7d0621@bitsavers.org> <200506292118.j5TLIRAo027194@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <8643ddf68913cd66ec0a256c16be8a44@bitsavers.org> David Bryan pointed me to page 6-5 of www.hp.com/products1/rte/tech_support/documentation/documentation4/ 92084-90025.pdf which has the following table: model mbytes xfrRat(kbytes) #surf #cyl #secs(256by) # blocks acc time(ms) 7907A 41 600 2/unit 627 64 80,256/unit 44 7908A 16 561 5 370 35 64,750 58 7911A 27 835 3 572 64 109,824 43 7912A 64 835 7 572 64 256,256 43 7914A 132 1000 7 1152 64 516,096 41 7933/35 404 1000 13 1321 92 1,579,916 35 7936 307 1000 7 1396 123 1,202,956 31 7937 571 1000 13 1396 123 2,232,204 31 7941/42 24 625 3 968 32 92,928 48 7945/46 55 625 7 968 32 216,832 48 7957A 81 853 5 1013 63 319,095 42 7957B 81 875 4 1269 63 319,788 28 7958A 130 853 8 1013 63 510,552 42 7958B 152 875 6 1572 63 594,216 28 C2200 335 1840 8 1449 113 1,309,840 27 C2203 670 1840 16 1449 113 2,619,792 27 From drb at msu.edu Fri Jul 1 23:57:43 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 00:57:43 -0400 Subject: VT-131 prints? Message-ID: <200507020457.j624vhZa024559@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> I have a VT-131 suffering from video circuit problems. The logic seems to be ok -- does a self test, led dance, emits a normal beep, and ends with the on-line led lit. The crt filament is glowing. Key click happens when keys are pressed. No screen display. I've turned up brightness in set-up, flying blind. Haven't twiddled the pot yet. So far, I've just taken the lid off, and am looking into the still-assembled chassis. The video board has some very charred-looking spots around the solder pads of one component (cap? spherical white ceramic-like device with two stout leads) down and to the right of the brightness adjustment. The tech manuals from bitsavers and vt100.net don't give me enough info to identify the component in question. Anyone have prints they'd be willing to scan bits of for me? Or read off to me by e-mail? Or have "replace this, kid" or "you're screwed" specific knowledge of this scenario? TIA, De From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Jul 2 02:50:37 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 09:50:37 +0200 Subject: PI/old IRIX questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050702095037.0f91bb08.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 17:13:26 -0700 Scott Quinn wrote: > Got my 4D/25 TG running (Thanks, Robert) with a new 3010 FPU. I have > IRIX 5.3, but even in 32MB it's somewhat slow and a bit unstable. Has > anyone on the list used 4.0.5 or 3.3? I instaled 3.3, 4.0.5 and 5.3 on different disks in my PI 4D35. Everything runs fine and stable. But I must admit I haven't used this machine much. Getting 3.3 on it was a bit cumbersome as I had only tape images... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Jul 2 04:22:35 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 10:22:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: References: <1260.82.152.112.73.1120263303.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <49275.82.152.112.73.1120296155.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > On Sat, 2 Jul 2005, Witchy wrote: > >> hahaha, I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that! Also, has has been >> previously mentioned that wooden thing can't be an apple 1 given that >> the > > Eh. I looked at that too, but I think the case has the right dimensions > to accomodate the Apple-1 motherboard. Hm, actually you could be right, it's smaller than I thought: http://torzewski.tripod.com/apple1computer/id1.html The whole thing still smacks of bogus though. If it isn't then someone's got themselves a hell of a bargain :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 04:56:37 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 05:56:37 -0400 Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem In-Reply-To: <012901c57e81$d245fc10$0500fea9@game> References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> <012901c57e81$d245fc10$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On 7/1/05, Teo Zenios wrote: > Jumper 301 is still in the open position (for a single drive). Perfect. > The two 8520's looked ok (nothing shorting pins together or stuff like that, > no signs of overheating). I swapped the 2 chips around and still have the > same result (external Df2: works while the internal DF0: is dead). OK... swapping the 8520s and watching the symptoms was a pretty standard method back in the day - it's easy and it works, so that _probably_ shows your 8520s are OK. > I checked the floppy cable and didn't see anything out of the ordinary > (except a pin in what looks like position 2 of the cable but I think that is > a key, since the motherboard does not look like it has a broken pin on it). That _is_ a key (and needs to be in any Amiga hardware FAQ - I can't remember how many times we had to tell people that in our Amiga club - every novice who added an internal floppy use to call us up and ask how to "replace a broken pin"... they thought that the pin had become stuck, and they must have pulled it out when they messed with the cable. > At this point I think it either the floppy cable has a bad line, or the > drive is just dead. Since the amiga cable does not look like a standard > floppy cable I think I will try setting the drive for Df1: and shorting > Jumper 301 to see if its recognized at all. > I did some research and quite a few older DD 3.5" PC drives can be jumpered > to Amiga mode (ofcourse I don't have any on the list). And they support the /DISK-EXCHANGE signal (p 34?) That was what always hosed frugal early-adopters of the Amiga - they'd try to use a cheap floppy, and the OS wouldn't be able to step the drive in and out one track to get the drive to assert the /DISK-EXCHAGE (or whichever one it was) so that the drive could 'tell' the OS that the diskette that used to be there isn't there any more. You _can_ hook up a floppy drive that won't assert that signal, but that places a burden on the user's head to have to type an AmigaDOS command to flush the previous diskette's particulars and to cache the new diskette. -ethan From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sat Jul 2 05:30:03 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 12:30:03 +0200 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? References: <1260.82.152.112.73.1120263303.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <49275.82.152.112.73.1120296155.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <000e01c57ef1$0267c3a0$2101a8c0@finans> > > > On Sat, 2 Jul 2005, Witchy wrote: > > > >> hahaha, I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that! Also, has has been > >> previously mentioned that wooden thing can't be an apple 1 given that > >> the > > > > > Eh. I looked at that too, but I think the case has the right dimensions > > to accomodate the Apple-1 motherboard. > It could just as well be a morse sounder. That would explain the loudspeaker, and the 3 potmeters for speed, volume and ditdah relation. I guess we'll never know Nico From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jul 2 05:58:44 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 06:58:44 -0400 Subject: VT-131 prints? In-Reply-To: <200507020457.j624vhZa024559@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200507020457.j624vhZa024559@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <42C67364.nailK2H11LEW8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > The video board has some very charred-looking spots around the > solder pads of one component (cap? spherical white ceramic-like > device with two stout leads) That's the diode in the flyback. Just about every VT1xx terminal has that blackened PCB. (And has probably gone through several flyback transformers...) If you've got any other VT1xx terminal, swapping out the flyback/video stuff that's in common will verify that you're lacking HV for the CRT. Tim. From rcini at optonline.net Sat Jul 2 06:13:42 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 07:13:42 -0400 Subject: SSM V1B Manual request Message-ID: <005001c57ef7$1b309dc0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: Does anyone have a copy of the Solid State Music V1B video board manual that they'd be willing to make a scan of (or make a copy of so I can scan it)? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 2 06:56:01 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 12:56:01 +0100 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001701c57efd$05b01a60$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >Incidentally, do you have the COS (monitor ROM) source listings? They >were available from RML, but I didn't get them with my machine, alas. I'm sure I have some listings, and my vague recollection is that they were for COS. I scanned everything I have and sent it to Manx so you should be able to find it there. If none of the titles make it obvious what you want, let me know and I'll find the paper version and confirm which document you need. Antonio From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Jul 2 08:01:32 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 09:01:32 -0400 Subject: SSM V1B Manual request Message-ID: <20050702130131.VLFN5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> At 07:13 02/07/2005 -0400, you wrote: >All: > > Does anyone have a copy of the Solid State Music V1B video board >manual that they'd be willing to make a scan of (or make a copy of so I can >scan it)? Hi Rich, If by chance you are referring to the SSM VB1B video board... I have the manual available on my site. Go to "S100 cards" near the bottom of my main page, then scroll down to the SSM section, and click the "1.4M PDF" link beside the listing for the VB1B. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Jul 2 08:06:03 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 09:06:03 -0400 Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info Message-ID: <20050702130602.PLCM16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Anyone have service information on the Epson HX-20? Specifically looking for information on the LCD driver. I have an HX-20 in which the LCD has grown very dim ... appears blank from normal viewing angle, but is barely readable at very low angle... Also, anyone on the list with a working HX-20 who would be willing to open it up and take some voltage/waveform readings for me (you will need an oscilloscope)? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sat Jul 2 08:36:09 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 08:36:09 -0500 Subject: SASI vs. SCSI In-Reply-To: <200507020011.j620B53Q075696@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507020011.j620B53Q075696@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42C69849.8040209@brutman.com> I almost hate to ask the obvious, but does something have specifications for the SASI protocol? That would go a long way to answering some of the questions. There was a SASI adapter for a PCjr that went in the modem slot from a company called RIM. It had a bridge board that connected it to a Seagate MFM drive. The chipset name escapes me at the moment, but I thought it was either NCR or Zilog doing second source for NCR. It smells awfully like SCSI. (I don't have the beast - I've just seen pictures of it. But I'd love to know what makes it tick.) Mike From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jul 2 09:26:50 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 10:26:50 -0400 Subject: VT-131 prints? Message-ID: <0IJ0001WP83IDNIA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: VT-131 prints? > From: Dennis Boone > Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 00:57:43 -0400 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >I have a VT-131 suffering from video circuit problems. The logic >seems to be ok -- does a self test, led dance, emits a normal beep, >and ends with the on-line led lit. The crt filament is glowing. >Key click happens when keys are pressed. No screen display. >I've turned up brightness in set-up, flying blind. Haven't twiddled >the pot yet. So far, I've just taken the lid off, and am looking >into the still-assembled chassis. > >The video board has some very charred-looking spots around the solder >pads of one component (cap? spherical white ceramic-like device with >two stout leads) down and to the right of the brightness adjustment. > >The tech manuals from bitsavers and vt100.net don't give me enough >info to identify the component in question. > >Anyone have prints they'd be willing to scan bits of for me? Or read >off to me by e-mail? Or have "replace this, kid" or "you're screwed" >specific knowledge of this scenario? > >TIA, > >De Common VT1xx part failure. Seemed they made the video board with a 50V cap where a 100V cap should be. Huge numbers of them were made and failed but amazingly there are still many in use that havent.. Yet. It is repairable as it cooks a cap, diode and resistor. The Video board is common to most VT1xx. Mine are deeply burried. Allison From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jul 2 13:16:03 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 14:16:03 -0400 Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem References: <1120149023.3791.8.camel@weka.localdomain> <004b01c57dfb$dce1dc60$0500fea9@game> <012901c57e81$d245fc10$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <003501c57f32$1b904820$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 5:56 AM Subject: Re: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem > On 7/1/05, Teo Zenios wrote: > > Jumper 301 is still in the open position (for a single drive). > > Perfect. > > > The two 8520's looked ok (nothing shorting pins together or stuff like that, > > no signs of overheating). I swapped the 2 chips around and still have the > > same result (external Df2: works while the internal DF0: is dead). > > OK... swapping the 8520s and watching the symptoms was a pretty > standard method back in the day - it's easy and it works, so that > _probably_ shows your 8520s are OK. > > > I checked the floppy cable and didn't see anything out of the ordinary > > (except a pin in what looks like position 2 of the cable but I think that is > > a key, since the motherboard does not look like it has a broken pin on it). > > That _is_ a key (and needs to be in any Amiga hardware FAQ - I can't > remember how many times we had to tell people that in our Amiga club - > every novice who added an internal floppy use to call us up and ask > how to "replace a broken pin"... they thought that the > pin had become stuck, and they must have pulled it out when they > messed with the cable. > > > At this point I think it either the floppy cable has a bad line, or the > > drive is just dead. Since the amiga cable does not look like a standard > > floppy cable I think I will try setting the drive for Df1: and shorting > > Jumper 301 to see if its recognized at all. > > > > I did some research and quite a few older DD 3.5" PC drives can be jumpered > > to Amiga mode (ofcourse I don't have any on the list). > > And they support the /DISK-EXCHANGE signal (p 34?) That was what > always hosed frugal early-adopters of the Amiga - they'd try to use a > cheap floppy, and the OS wouldn't be able to step the drive in and out > one track to get the drive to assert the /DISK-EXCHAGE (or whichever > one it was) so that the drive could 'tell' the OS that the diskette > that used to be there isn't there any more. > > You _can_ hook up a floppy drive that won't assert that signal, but > that places a burden on the user's head to have to type an AmigaDOS > command to flush the previous diskette's particulars and to cache the > new diskette. > > -ethan > This link shows how to modify a specific PC floppy to work perfectly on an Amiga (pin 34 goes to pin 2) http://www.caps-project.org/articles.php?id=a_v9drivemod Anyway while checking for Amiga compatible PC drives in my piles of stuff I came across a HD to floppy power connector (was stuck on a floppy drive) I decided to try it out on the Amiga. The drive works! I then checked the voltage at the old amiga power connection and it does show 5V and 12V (using a multimeter). So either there is a loose connection inside the power cable or its pinched somewhere so that under load the voltage drops enough so that the drive wont work. Anyway I kept the power adapter in place (along with a Y cable so I can power my 2GB HD) and everything works just fine for now (even with the case back on) so I am happy. I must say that with a 2.x kickstart and Workbench 2.1 this GVP 030/40 boots up one hell of allot faster then it did in its Kickstart 1.3 days. Too bad all my other machines can't go from power on to desktop in under 15 seconds (from a HD boot about 10 seconds for my A1200). Thanks for the help Ethan. From cannings at earthlink.net Sat Jul 2 13:33:25 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 11:33:25 -0700 Subject: Does anyone have a Radio Shack Electronics Learning Lab? References: Message-ID: <000401c57f34$88819db0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Ethan, Yes, I do. Here is the parts list you requested. Hope this helps. Best regards, Steven Canning ELL (RS 28-280) Loose Parts List Resistors: 2 - 100 Ohm 8 - 470 Ohm 12 - 1.0 K 2 - 1.5 K 2 - 2,2 K 2 - 3.3 K 5 - 4.7 K 2 - 5.6 K 2 - 6.8 K 2 - 8.2 K 2 - 9.1 K 8 - 10 K 2 - 22 K 2 - 33 K 4 - 47 K 2 - 68 K 5 - 100 K 2 - 330 K 3 - 470 K 3 - 1.0 M 3 - 10 M Caps Ceramic: 1- 33 pF 2 - 470 pF 3 - 0.001 uF 2- 0.0047 uF 5- 0.01 uF 2- 0.047 uF 3 - 0.1 uF Caps Electrolytic: 2- o.047 uF 2- 1.0 uF 2- 4.7 uF 2- 10 uF 2- 100 uF 1- 470 uF Semiconductors / ICs: 4- 1N4148 Diode 1- Zener Diode 1- Red LED 1- Green LED 1- 324 Quad Compar 2- 4011 2 In NAND 2- 4001 2 In NOR 1- 4013 FFlop 1- 4017 Dec Cntr / Decoder 1- 4046 PLLoop 1- 4049 6 Invert Buffer 1- 4046 4 Bilat Switches 1- 4029 Up / Down Cntr 1- 4511 BCD 7 Segment 1- 4070 XOR 1- 272 Dual Op Amp 1- 386 Power Amp 2- 555 Timer 1- 7805 Volt Reg 2- NPN Xsistors 2- PNP Xsistors 2- IRF630 Power MOSFETs Misc: 1 - Ceramic Earphone 40 - 5 cm White Wires 20 - 10 cm Red Wires 10 - 20 cm Blue Wires 5 - 30 cm Yellow Wires 1- 24.5 cm Red Bare Wire > Hi, > > I picked up an ELL (RS 28-280) at the outlet store. It was cheap > because all of the loose parts were missing. I have the base and the > books. The PDF file on the RS web site doesn't list things in enough > detail to be able to build a list of missing parts. I'm going through > the books and trying to tally the required parts, but it's taking > hours and I'm likely to make mistakes. > > Does anyone have one of these and might they have enough time to make > a physical inventory? Even a digital picture of the parts spread out > on a tabletop would be really helpful. > > Thanks, > > -ethan > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 2 15:04:22 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 20:04:22 +0000 Subject: SASI vs. SCSI In-Reply-To: <42C69849.8040209@brutman.com> References: <200507020011.j620B53Q075696@dewey.classiccmp.org> <42C69849.8040209@brutman.com> Message-ID: <1120334662.7101.20.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-07-02 at 08:36 -0500, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I almost hate to ask the obvious, but does something have specifications > for the SASI protocol? That would go a long way to answering some of > the questions. I'd quite like to see those too. I remember that one of the manuals for one of the bridge boards I have gives a really nice description of early SCSI (including timing diagrams etc.). I'll have to dig it out as it might just go into details about SASI/SCSI differences too. Most of my knowledge of SASI has been picked up from fragments here and there though (often from this list) - I've never seen a proper spec or anything (unlike for SCSI) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jul 2 15:17:51 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 20:17:51 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120335471.7101.31.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-01 at 23:32 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The first is the dual cassette controller. The pinout of the 7 pin > > [...] > > > Hmm... the couple of references I've seen to it in RML documentation > > suggest that it was a 3rd party thing, rather than an RML part. They > > I didn;'t get that impression at all.... I don't have any kind of docs for a tape-only system though; only ones for disk systems - which happen to describe tape procedures too. Maybe you have some different ones. It was more that I'm surprised they didn't say in the docs that it was an RML part, or avaialble from RML or whatever. The Disk Information File does mention a "Firmware reference manual" as having more info on the COS tape routines and a description of the interface - maybe that one has more details in it about the dual tape controller. It's not a document I've seen. > Incidentally, do you have the COS (monitor ROM) source listings? They > were available from RML, but I didn't get them with my machine, alas. If you can stand a PDF I think this is the one :-) http://vt100.net/rm/docs/RML_380Z_cassette_operating_system.pdf 489KB, so not too huge either :) I've brought a bunch of RML floppies home for the week from the museum, so I'll see what's on those and at least make a few backup copies. Might well be something interesting (I don't believe we've got any RML stuff on tape though) cheers Jules From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Jul 2 15:18:41 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 15:18:41 -0500 Subject: Testing PC controller for FM disk capability Message-ID: <42C6F6A1.3070302@mdrconsult.com> I'm setting up a YE-data 8" drive (YD-180) to use with a PC. I have a couple of candidates, as far as which computer I use, but I need to make sure that the onboard FDC will read and write FM disks. I'm assuming that if I can write an RX01 image to floppy on the PC and boot it on the PDP-11 (RX02 drive), I'm good to go? Is there a list of FDC chips known to support FM? Doc From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 15:25:41 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 15:25:41 -0500 Subject: VT-131 prints? In-Reply-To: <0IJ0001WP83IDNIA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IJ0001WP83IDNIA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 7/2/05, Allison wrote: > Common VT1xx part failure. Seemed they made the video board with a > 50V cap where a 100V cap should be. Huge numbers of them were made > and failed but amazingly there are still many in use that havent.. Yet. > It is repairable as it cooks a cap, diode and resistor. That sounds like once someone traces down the problem, it belongs in a FAQ somewhere. I haven't had any failures like that, so I guess I'd like to know more, especially to buy a bag of 100V caps and preemptively fix some of my terminals (I have stuff ranging from gen-u-ine VT100s, to VT102s, a VT103, a VT105, a DECmate I, etc., and I don't recall if I have a VT125 or VT131 or not. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 15:30:49 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 15:30:49 -0500 Subject: Netcom HV1148 chassis for DEC? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050701202459.00a722e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050701202459.00a722e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 7/1/05, Joe R. wrote: > I found one of these today. Nice chassis, it's obvioulsly made for DEC > cards and has 12 Quad width card slots. However I don't know if it's > Omnibus or what. Anybody know? A couple of minutes with a continuity tester should establish that - OMNIBUS is AA1 to AA1 on all slots, AB1 to AB1 on all slots, etc. No serpentine, no grant lines, no CD slots. It should be clear what to test if you look at an OMNIBUS pinout and compare it to a Qbus serpentine and a Qbus CD pinout. In the case of a 12-slot Qbus CD backplane, don't bother with A and B slots - except for grant pins, they are going to somewhat resemble OMNIBUS - it's the CD pins you should focus on. If AA1 is tied to CA1, that suggests Qbus sinusoidal (if AA1 - slot 1 is tied to AA1 - slot 2, that doesn't tell you much). Repeat until the nature of the backplane is revealed - probably 3-5 scientifically-selected tests should be conclusive. -ethan From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jul 2 15:31:04 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:31:04 -0400 Subject: VT-131 prints? In-Reply-To: References: <0IJ0001WP83IDNIA@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <42C6F988.nailOE011CMWH@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > buy a bag of 100V caps That white-ball with wires is supposed to be a fast-recovery diode. It gets hot, as you can tell by the charred PC board around it. Replacing it with something beefier (but it has to be fast-recovery!) never hurts. Tim. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jul 2 15:33:29 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:33:29 -0400 Subject: VT-131 prints? Message-ID: <0IJ000KK5P3S4JM0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VT-131 prints? > From: Ethan Dicks > Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 15:25:41 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 7/2/05, Allison wrote: >> Common VT1xx part failure. Seemed they made the video board with a >> 50V cap where a 100V cap should be. Huge numbers of them were made >> and failed but amazingly there are still many in use that havent.. Yet. >> It is repairable as it cooks a cap, diode and resistor. > >That sounds like once someone traces down the problem, it belongs in a >FAQ somewhere. > >I haven't had any failures like that, so I guess I'd like to know >more, especially to buy a bag of 100V caps and preemptively fix some >of my terminals (I have stuff ranging from gen-u-ine VT100s, to >VT102s, a VT103, a VT105, a DECmate I, etc., and I don't recall if I >have a VT125 or VT131 or not. > >-ethan All qualify. It's the board in the monitor (display) that is in question. There is a (memory test) 100mf 50V cap and it's subject to more than that (about 70V). It was fixed in production and who knows how many field repairs by board replacement, I once saw a crate of dead boards 4x4x6ft full, and that was a sample. If the cap is replaced with suitable the failure is unlikely. I have several VT1xx and all have been fixed over 10 years ago. Failing boards display height and linearity problems before they fry. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jul 2 15:48:18 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:48:18 -0400 Subject: VT-131 prints? Message-ID: <0IJ00010QPSHDCMB@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VT-131 prints? > From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) > Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 16:31:04 -0400 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org, cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> buy a bag of 100V caps > >That white-ball with wires is supposed to be a fast-recovery diode. >It gets hot, as you can tell by the charred PC board around it. Replacing >it with something beefier (but it has to be fast-recovery!) never >hurts. Actually it gets hot due to the cap shorting or going leaky. Then the diode and an associated resistor start heating excessively till the cap shorts completely or the heat causes the diode to short. It's a single point failure that was due to a underrated part (cap). I was with TSG (Terminal Systems Group) when they discovered they were getting killed by field failures of 1.7 years in service (average age) VT1xx video modules. All because someone wrote 50V not 100V for the electrolytic used. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 2 16:29:35 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 14:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Testing PC controller for FM disk capability In-Reply-To: <42C6F6A1.3070302@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jul 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > I'm setting up a YE-data 8" drive (YD-180) to use with a PC. I have > a couple of candidates, as far as which computer I use, but I need to > make sure that the onboard FDC will read and write FM disks. The best way to do this is to just try it (on a known good FM disk) and see if it works. > I'm assuming that if I can write an RX01 image to floppy on the PC > and boot it on the PDP-11 (RX02 drive), I'm good to go? Probably. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 2 16:37:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 14:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux Message-ID: Ok, it seems everytime I try to do something, there has to be about 96 unproductive hours filled with failed attempts to do even the simplest things, like installing Linux for example. I'll spare everyone the lame details, suffice it to say that, now that everything is hooked up, I have been unable to successfully read a 9-track tape. I can certainly get the tape to do stuff like forward through files, rewind, get the status, etc. using mt. That much works. However, if I try to READ a file, and I've tried this with dd and Eric Smith's tapedump utility and whatnot, it always returns with 0 files read. It apparently sees the file marks as it will say its reading file 1, file 2, etc., but it never actually dumps anything. I've tried the multiple tapes at multiple densities and they are tapes I've read before on another system. WTF??? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Jul 2 17:23:37 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 15:23:37 -0700 Subject: Testing PC controller for FM disk capability In-Reply-To: <42C6F6A1.3070302@mdrconsult.com> (Doc Shipley's message of "Sat, 02 Jul 2005 15:18:41 -0500") References: <42C6F6A1.3070302@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200507022223.j62MNbfd074286@lots.reanimators.org> Doc Shipley wrote: > Is there a list of FDC chips known to support FM? Once upon a time Amardeep Chana (I think) set out to find out what worked. I'm thinking this was over in comp.os.cpm. Um, yes, take a look at: It may be worthwhile to look at the entire thread. He and others have mentioned that the floppy-disk controller portion of the Adaptec 1542CF and 1542CP ISA cards worked well. -Frank McConnell From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 2 16:42:36 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 22:42:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT-131 prints? In-Reply-To: <200507020457.j624vhZa024559@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> from "Dennis Boone" at Jul 2, 5 00:57:43 am Message-ID: > > I have a VT-131 suffering from video circuit problems. The logic I think all the VT1xx terminals use much the same video board, but there are at least 3 versions of it that were essentially randomly used in all models. The VT100 prints that I have show one version, I traced out the schemaitc of the one used in my VT100s. > seems to be ok -- does a self test, led dance, emits a normal beep, > and ends with the on-line led lit. The crt filament is glowing. > Key click happens when keys are pressed. No screen display. > I've turned up brightness in set-up, flying blind. Haven't twiddled > the pot yet. So far, I've just taken the lid off, and am looking > into the still-assembled chassis. I would start by measuring the CRT voltages. If you have an EHT meter, start with the anode connector on the side of the CRT (expect about 10-12 kV here I think). Expect a few hundred volts on pins 6 and 7 of the CRT (g2 and g3, to use the US names). > > The video board has some very charred-looking spots around the solder > pads of one component (cap? spherical white ceramic-like device with > two stout leads) down and to the right of the brightness adjustment. That sounds like one of the many diodes that produce supplies from the flyback transformer. > > The tech manuals from bitsavers and vt100.net don't give me enough > info to identify the component in question. > > Anyone have prints they'd be willing to scan bits of for me? Or read > off to me by e-mail? Or have "replace this, kid" or "you're screwed" > specific knowledge of this scenario? Alas most of the time the problem is the flyback transformer. Be warned that a shorted diode on the video board can kill flybacks, and that a defective flyback transformer can kill the horizontal output transistor on the video board. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 2 16:46:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 22:46:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT-131 prints? In-Reply-To: <42C67364.nailK2H11LEW8@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jul 2, 5 06:58:44 am Message-ID: > If you've got any other VT1xx terminal, swapping out the flyback/video > stuff that's in common will verify that you're lacking HV for the CRT. Be careful if you do this. As I mentioned earlier, a bad flyback can damage the PCB, a bad PCB can damage the flyback. The problem could be the CRT. Yes, I know that the heater is glowing, but it's not unheard-of for the cathode connection to break away inside. Result : No beam current, and thus no illumnination on the screen. I had this happen on a Volker-Craig terminal. It is much better to measure the CRT electrode voltages and then work out what's wrong than to guess and start replacing parts before you have any clue as to the problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 2 16:47:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 22:47:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <001701c57efd$05b01a60$5b01a8c0@flexpc> from "Antonio Carlini" at Jul 2, 5 12:56:01 pm Message-ID: > > >Incidentally, do you have the COS (monitor ROM) source listings? They > >were available from RML, but I didn't get them with my machine, alas. > > I'm sure I have some listings, and my vague recollection is that they > were for COS. I scanned everything I have and sent it to Manx Can somebody remind me of the URL, and I'll take a look... Thanks -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 2 17:03:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 23:03:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info In-Reply-To: <20050702130602.PLCM16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jul 2, 5 09:06:03 am Message-ID: > > Anyone have service information on the Epson HX-20? > > Specifically looking for information on the LCD driver. > I have an HX-20 in which the LCD has grown very dim ... > appears blank from normal viewing angle, but is barely > readable at very low angle... I have the hardware technical manual... Firstly, a pinout of the tapewire to the LCD module (it plugs into the keyboard PCB). 1 Gnd 2 CS0/ These are the chip select lines for the 3 CS4/ 6 LCD driver chips (7227) 4 CS2/ 5 CS1/ 6 CS3/ 7 CS5/ 8 Reset 9 Clk 10 C/D (Command/Data select) 11 SI (Serial In) 12 SCK/ (Shift clock) 13 SO/Busy (serial output/busy line) 14 Vcc (LCD supply voltage) The LCD driver chip is actually a standard, not custom, part. NEC uPD7227. I have a data sheet on it I think. Now, I would start by checking that LCD supply voltage signal. It starts on the main board where IC 2C (4049) acts as an oscillator and driver to operate a voltage doubler, You should see about 7V (I think) on the +ve end of C1 or C6. This then goes up to the keyboard, to a 2 transistor voltage controller circuit there. Check for an adjustable voltage (set with the thumbwheel on the side of the machine) at the emitter of Q2 on the keyboard. This voltage, BTW, is fed back to the mainboard to power some of the ICs that connect to the LCD driver chips. > > Also, anyone on the list with a working HX-20 who would > be willing to open it up and take some voltage/waveform > readings for me (you will need an oscilloscope)? Setting it up near a 'scope would be a pain, but I can do voltage readings or logic analyster traces if you think that would help. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 2 17:10:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 23:10:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120335471.7101.31.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 2, 5 08:17:51 pm Message-ID: > I don't have any kind of docs for a tape-only system though; only ones Nor do I. I've never actually seen a system without disk drives either, although I am pretty sure they existed. > for disk systems - which happen to describe tape procedures too. Maybe > you have some different ones. It was more that I'm surprised they didn't > say in the docs that it was an RML part, or avaialble from RML or > whatever. > > The Disk Information File does mention a "Firmware reference manual" as > having more info on the COS tape routines and a description of the > interface - maybe that one has more details in it about the dual tape > controller. It's not a document I've seen. I think I do have a COS firmware manual somewhere, but it will take some finding... > > > Incidentally, do you have the COS (monitor ROM) source listings? They > > were available from RML, but I didn't get them with my machine, alas. > > If you can stand a PDF I think this is the one :-) > > http://vt100.net/rm/docs/RML_380Z_cassette_operating_system.pdf OK, thnaks... > > 489KB, so not too huge either :) > > I've brought a bunch of RML floppies home for the week from the museum, > so I'll see what's on those and at least make a few backup copies. Might > well be something interesting (I don't believe we've got any RML stuff > on tape though) Pity. I'd hoped at least one original RML cassette esisted somewhere. >From reading the manual, it appers that the phase of the replay signal is critical (it was with some other tape interfaces too) and I was hoping I could get an original tape to set up against. Oh well.... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 2 17:37:25 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 15:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Testing PC controller for FM disk capability In-Reply-To: <42C6F6A1.3070302@mdrconsult.com> References: <42C6F6A1.3070302@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20050702152446.Y36719@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 2 Jul 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > I'm assuming that if I can write an RX01 image to floppy on the PC > and boot it on the PDP-11 (RX02 drive), I'm good to go? 'twould seem likely > Is there a list of FDC chips known to support FM? Actually, just about all of the FDC chips support FM! Unfortunately, some FDC BOARDS require some trivial additional circuitry that may or may not be there. For example, the NEC 765 supports FM, but the circuitry on the 5150 FDC board hardwires it to MFM. With some trivial mods, the FM can be enabled. BTW, some additional [not quite so trivial] mods are required to the 5150 if you want the 8" data transfer rates. Boards that use the 37C65 disk controller chip can usually handle FM (at least for reading) without modification. Just about any AT disk controller can handle 8" (at least MFM), since the 1.2M drive was originally intended as a replacement for 8" drives. But there are SOME PCs that will choke on 8" during P.O.S.T. (Power On Self Test) due to having 77 instead of 80 tracks, and/or not having a "360K mode". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 2 17:56:16 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 15:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info In-Reply-To: <20050702130602.PLCM16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050702130602.PLCM16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20050702155142.H36719@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 2 Jul 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Anyone have service information on the Epson HX-20? Check with Uncle Roger, if he's still around. I sold him two HC-20s (the Japanese model (different color, katakana on the keyboard, and different ROMs)), and gave him a tote of docs that included schematics. All the text is in Japanese, but a schematic is a schematic. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rmeenaks at olf.com Sat Jul 2 19:30:39 2005 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 20:30:39 -0400 Subject: Help setting up a SBS/Bit3 PCI-to-VMEBus cards Message-ID: <0IJ000LFEZFGZJ60@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Hi, Does anyone know how to set these boards up? I have a SBS 616 PCI adapter and its corresponding VMEBus adapter. I also have a VME Chassis and I want to install some transputer boards on the chassis and access it via Windows. Anyone have experience in using these??? Thanks, Ram From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 2 20:00:18 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 18:00:18 -0700 Subject: SASI vs. SCSI Message-ID: <7e71cccee2fa172653da6c5b0715edf5@bitsavers.org> I've never seen a proper spec or anything (unlike for SCSI) -- Because the standardization process is what created SCSI. Look in the Xebec, Shugart, and DTC manuals on bitsavers. There will be another batch of Shugart 14xx manuals up soon. The big difference is SASI has no notion of deconnect/reconnect. Once a transaction starts on SASI, no other device has bus access. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Jul 2 22:31:35 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 23:31:35 -0400 Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C75C17.1000002@atarimuseum.com> Sallem, What kind of backups are they? Are they perhaps BSD Linux using the level0 backup method? What version of Linux are you currently running to do tape backup/restores? If it is a level0 (I'm rusting, so someone correct me if I'm mistaken) restore -i should put you into interactive mode there you can do a directory of contents of the tape and if you are looking to restore all the contents I think its restore -r * (make sure you are in the destination directory before running that as all contents will be copied into the directory you are in when you run that command) Depending on your linux, you may have to patch it to include the restore command as some instances of linux are no longer including it which I've seen with Mandrake and Turbo Linux. Last time I checked version 8 and think 9 of Redhat still had the command included. Curt Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Ok, it seems everytime I try to do something, there has to be about 96 >unproductive hours filled with failed attempts to do even the simplest >things, like installing Linux for example. > >I'll spare everyone the lame details, suffice it to say that, now that >everything is hooked up, I have been unable to successfully read a 9-track >tape. > >I can certainly get the tape to do stuff like forward through files, >rewind, get the status, etc. using mt. That much works. > >However, if I try to READ a file, and I've tried this with dd and Eric >Smith's tapedump utility and whatnot, it always returns with 0 files read. >It apparently sees the file marks as it will say its reading file 1, file >2, etc., but it never actually dumps anything. > >I've tried the multiple tapes at multiple densities and they are tapes >I've read before on another system. > >WTF??? > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.8/37 - Release Date: 7/1/2005 From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jul 2 23:03:32 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2005 23:03:32 -0500 Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: <42C75C17.1000002@atarimuseum.com> References: <42C75C17.1000002@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <200507022303.32579.pat@computer-refuge.org> Curt @ Atari Museum declared on Saturday 02 July 2005 10:31 pm: > Sallem, > > What kind of backups are they? Are they perhaps BSD Linux > using the level0 backup method? What version of Linux are you > currently running to do tape backup/restores? If it is a level0 (I'm > rusting, so someone correct me if I'm mistaken) Uhm, I really doubt that Sellam is trying to do backups from his Linux system to 9-track tapes... I'm sure that he's trying to read tapes written on something else (like maybe a PDP11 or something) on the Linux box. Sellam, are you sure that your tape drive works, and that the SCSI chain is properly terminated? An unterminated SCSI chain may be good enough to pass forward/rewind commands, but have problems with data transfers long enough to pass data to/from the tape. If the SCSI chain is intact and terminated properly (you could stick another device, maybe a SCSI HDD, on the chain to test that), then i'd suspect the drive as being bad. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From drb at msu.edu Sat Jul 2 23:37:47 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 00:37:47 -0400 Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux Message-ID: <200507030437.j634bl3b019953@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > However, if I try to READ a file, and I've tried this with dd and > Eric Smith's tapedump utility and whatnot, it always returns with > 0 files read. It apparently sees the file marks as it will say its > reading file 1, file 2, etc., but it never actually dumps anything. > > I've tried the multiple tapes at multiple densities and they are > tapes I've read before on another system. Any idea what block size was used to write the tapes? Any relevant messages in the kernel log (i.e. output of "dmesg")? Which /dev/device are you using to access the drive? What's the dd command you're using? > WTF??? Sounds like _my_ life. :-) De From unibus at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 02:23:39 2005 From: unibus at gmail.com (Unibus) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 17:23:39 +1000 Subject: SASI vs. SCSI In-Reply-To: <200507021700.j62H03qr082930@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507021700.j62H03qr082930@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > I almost hate to ask the obvious, but does something have specifications > for the SASI protocol? That would go a long way to answering some of > the questions. Try http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/shugart as there are controllers in there. Also some information in the '1984 Storage Management Products Handbook' Western Digital. Board WD1002-SMD. Regards, Garry From news at computercollector.com Sun Jul 3 04:14:52 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 05:14:52 -0400 Subject: Psion 1 manual online Message-ID: <200507030920.j639KHLM038389@keith.ezwind.net> A few people asked me for copies of the original Psion Organiser manual. I finally got around to scanning it and posted a copy at http://www.snarc.net/psion1.pdf for open perusal. - Evan ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 750 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jul 3 07:30:02 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 08:30:02 -0400 Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info Message-ID: <20050703123001.MQOO5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Tony, >Now, I would start by checking that LCD supply voltage signal. It starts >on the main board where IC 2C (4049) acts as an oscillator and driver to >operate a voltage doubler, You should see about 7V (I think) on the +ve >end of C1 or C6. This then goes up to the keyboard, to a 2 transistor >voltage controller circuit there. Check for an adjustable voltage (set >with the thumbwheel on the side of the machine) at the emitter of Q2 on >the keyboard. This voltage, BTW, is fed back to the mainboard to power >some of the ICs that connect to the LCD driver chips. Thanks for the useful information. I am seeing only about 3.5v on C1/C6 ... and it has about a 1v DC square(ish) wave superimposed on it. I see the same voltage/waveform at the transistors, and on the voltage input to the LCD. The thumbwheel does not affect it a whole lot - it mostly clips the tops of the square wave. Unplugging the LCD module makes little difference, so it's not a loading issue (at least not from the module). I see lots of very healty looking 5v square waves coming out of IC2C, however I am having a great deal of difficulty trying to trace the circuit on the board. Can you give me a bit more of the circuit? Which pins coming out of IC2C are driving the power supply, and what is the circuit between these and C1? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jul 3 07:31:32 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 08:31:32 -0400 Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info Message-ID: <20050703123132.MRDY5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Fred, >Check with Uncle Roger, if he's still around. >I sold him two HC-20s (the Japanese model (different color, katakana >on the keyboard, and different ROMs)), and gave him a tote of docs >that included schematics. All the text is in Japanese, but a schematic >is a schematic. Um... who is "Uncle Roger"? Is he a participant in this list? How to contact him? Regards and thanks for responding. Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 3 08:23:50 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 13:23:50 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120397030.8144.16.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-07-02 at 23:10 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > I don't have any kind of docs for a tape-only system though; only ones > > Nor do I. I've never actually seen a system without disk drives either, > although I am pretty sure they existed. We've got several 380Z's (well, two or three) that have no drives in them - I expect those are tape-only systems. Unfortunately I've never had time to look inside them as there's always been something more important to do! I know we've got one of the 8" drive setups too which are rather rare, plus we've got one 380Z-FD machine which should have the "full disk" controller in it (on-board RAM, ROM, its own Z80 cpu etc.). (Said disk controller also has the SIO-4 on board, and the on-board firmware should allow communication direct between the disks and the serial port - I believe it's the same board as used for the 480Z shared disk system) What we don't have is keyboards. In some cases that's not such a big deal as with the later serial boards they could run from a terminal rather than system keyboard & display. > > The Disk Information File does mention a "Firmware reference manual" as > > having more info on the COS tape routines and a description of the > > interface - maybe that one has more details in it about the dual tape > > controller. It's not a document I've seen. > > I think I do have a COS firmware manual somewhere, but it will take some > finding... Good - RML documentation seems to be *very* thin on the ground! (Not like the machines are common either!) > > I've brought a bunch of RML floppies home for the week from the museum, > > so I'll see what's on those and at least make a few backup copies. Might > > well be something interesting (I don't believe we've got any RML stuff > > on tape though) > > Pity. I'd hoped at least one original RML cassette esisted somewhere. > >From reading the manual, it appers that the phase of the replay signal is > critical (it was with some other tape interfaces too) and I was hoping I > could get an original tape to set up against. Oh well.... Presumably saving some data on one (or more) tape-based system(s) would be enough to you to read it one yours and setup against that. Not as ideal as going from an original manufacturer tape maybe, but probably the best that can be hoped for. Aside - ever seen a 480Z ROM cartridge? I only found out that they existed (according to the documentation) the other day. Never heard of anyone owning or seeing one before though... cheers Jules From david_comley at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 09:08:46 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 07:08:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050703140846.36122.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Could this be a driver issue ? I would verify that the tape drive you're using is set up in the SCSI tape subsystem. I went through a similar exercise for Solaris with an Overland tape drive and I had to edit and recompile st.c in order to correctly deal with the drive. What type of tape drive is it - and which version/flavor of Linux ? Dave --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > However, if I try to READ a file, and I've tried > this with dd and Eric > Smith's tapedump utility and whatnot, it always > returns with 0 files read. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 3 09:09:08 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 10:09:08 -0400 Subject: My PDP-8 Cards Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I spent a big part of yesterday sorting out the DEC cards that I've been picking up the last couple of weeks. This morning I photographed SOME of the PDP-8 cards. Take a look there's definitely some odd stuff there! This is just a small part of the ones that I got. I'll add more photos and (hopefully) descriptions later. If anyone wants to take a stab at identifing some of the third party cards and/or writing a description I'll be glad to post it. Joe From david_comley at yahoo.com Sun Jul 3 09:21:36 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 07:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Psion 1 manual online In-Reply-To: <200507030920.j639KHLM038389@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050703142136.97494.qmail@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> On a related note, I have the owner's manual and the Comms Option manual for the Organizer II. I still use the Psion today - it has an autobaud feature that is handy for checking serial port setups on other machines. Dave --- 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > A few people asked me for copies of the original > Psion Organiser manual. I > finally got around to scanning it and posted a copy > at > http://www.snarc.net/psion1.pdf for open perusal. __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel and more fun for the weekend. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/weekend.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jul 3 11:35:48 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 09:35:48 -0700 Subject: My PDP-8 Cards In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: At 10:09 AM -0400 7/3/05, Joe R. wrote: >more photos and (hopefully) descriptions later. If anyone wants to take a >stab at identifing some of the third party cards and/or writing a >description I'll be glad to post it. I'll pass on trying to ID anything, however, you might find this old project of my interesting. It's a list of non-Q-Bus and non-Unibus modules. ftp://192.168.1.41/pub/ModuleList.txt Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jul 3 11:40:25 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 11:40:25 -0500 Subject: My PDP-8 Cards References: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <006101c57fed$eb7cd290$57406b43@66067007> I could link to the list? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 11:35 AM Subject: Re: My PDP-8 Cards > At 10:09 AM -0400 7/3/05, Joe R. wrote: >>more photos and (hopefully) descriptions later. If anyone wants to take a >>stab at identifing some of the third party cards and/or writing a >>description I'll be glad to post it. > > I'll pass on trying to ID anything, however, you might find this old > project of my interesting. It's a list of non-Q-Bus and non-Unibus > modules. > > ftp://192.168.1.41/pub/ModuleList.txt > > Zane > > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 3 11:42:43 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 12:42:43 -0400 Subject: My PDP-8 Cards In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050703124243.00a56380@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi Zane, I found it. It's been pretty useful. I have enough DEC docs that id'ing the DEC stuff isn't a problem. It's the 3rd party stuff that's a problem. For example I know what the Plessey 700643, 700645 and 700647 are but I've never even heard of a Plessey memory card and I have no idea what the other Plessey card is for. I'd love to find docs for stuff like the Mostek memory cards, not only are they capable of holding 64k of memory but I also have several of them so they could be real handy. Joe At 09:35 AM 7/3/05 -0700, you wrote: >At 10:09 AM -0400 7/3/05, Joe R. wrote: >>more photos and (hopefully) descriptions later. If anyone wants to take a >>stab at identifing some of the third party cards and/or writing a >>description I'll be glad to post it. > >I'll pass on trying to ID anything, however, you might find this old >project of my interesting. It's a list of non-Q-Bus and non-Unibus >modules. > >ftp://192.168.1.41/pub/ModuleList.txt > > Zane > > >-- >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun Jul 3 11:45:46 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 18:45:46 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Free: Commodore 8024 printer Message-ID: <20355.62.177.191.201.1120409146.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Available (in the Netherlands), a Commodore 8024 printer with 3 unused ink ribbons. Shipping is possible, but due to weight (+/- 15Kg) local pickup is preferred. Ed From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jul 3 12:01:36 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 10:01:36 -0700 Subject: My PDP-8 Cards In-Reply-To: <006101c57fed$eb7cd290$57406b43@66067007> References: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <006101c57fed$eb7cd290$57406b43@66067007> Message-ID: At 11:40 AM -0500 7/3/05, Keys wrote: >I could link to the list? Yes, but you'll want to use ftp://ftp.avanthar.com/pub/ModuleList.txt Obviously not enough caffeine yet this morning. Guess that's what I get for posting when I first get up. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 12:16:41 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 12:16:41 -0500 Subject: My PDP-8 Cards In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 7/3/05, Joe R. wrote: > If anyone wants to take a stab at identifing some of the third party cards and/or writing a > description I'll be glad to post it. I don't know _what_ it is, but the card you have marked "SSS" is a Systems Industries card - so you might consider renaming it to "SI Unknown" or something similar. I wish there were more information running around about SI products - I have a Qbus SCSI controller that I'm still searching for more info on - it was strapped to a non-standard address, plus I'm not sure if it is TMSCP only or if it does MSCP. It's a model CS-21, IIRC. -ethan From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sun Jul 3 12:16:46 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 13:16:46 -0400 Subject: TI Modulators & cassette cables available Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050703131644.02593b10@pop-server> I have a number of these and will make them available to members of this list for for the price shown TI-99/4A Modulator UM1381-1 NEW $6 TI Home Computer 99/4A Cassette Cable NEW $4 Model # PHA 2622 TI Home Computer 99/4A Dual Cassette Cable NEW one w/2 leads other with 3 PHA 2000 $6 plus shipping of course ================================= Gene Ehrich gehrich at tampabay.rr.com From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sun Jul 3 12:23:12 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 13:23:12 -0400 Subject: almost Free Commodore 1541 801 802 6100 In-Reply-To: <20355.62.177.191.201.1120409146.squirrel@62.177.191.201> References: <20355.62.177.191.201.1120409146.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050703132030.025a0010@pop-server> Commodore 1541 Disk Drive $3.00 Commodore MPS 801 Printer $3.00 Commodore MPS 802 Printer $3.00 Juki 6100 printer for Commodore $3.00 local pickup only - Spring Hill Florida From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jul 3 13:03:17 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:03:17 -0500 Subject: My PDP-8 Cards References: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><006101c57fed$eb7cd290$57406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <008c01c57ff9$7ec79340$57406b43@66067007> Thanks not thinking this morning myself. The list is great. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 12:01 PM Subject: Re: My PDP-8 Cards > At 11:40 AM -0500 7/3/05, Keys wrote: >>I could link to the list? > > Yes, but you'll want to use ftp://ftp.avanthar.com/pub/ModuleList.txt > > Obviously not enough caffeine yet this morning. Guess that's what I get > for posting when I first get up. > > Zane > > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From marvin at rain.org Sun Jul 3 14:06:26 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 12:06:26 -0700 Subject: 8" Apple Disks? Message-ID: <42C83732.51B2CFD4@rain.org> A friend of mine showed me some 8" disks labeled "Apple" written on the label but did not have an Apple logo on them. Did Apple ever issue software on 8" disks and/or support 8" drives? From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jul 3 14:37:39 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 15:37:39 -0400 Subject: 8" Apple Disks? In-Reply-To: <42C83732.51B2CFD4@rain.org> References: <42C83732.51B2CFD4@rain.org> Message-ID: <42C83E83.nail7K31TPMMO@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Did Apple ever [...] support 8" drives? There were a couple of aftermarket outfits that sold 8" drives, controllers, and software for Apple II's. These were available through Apple dealers but weren't really products of Apple Computer. (Typically they were used for interchange with CP/M systems, although I know of a few used to exchange RT-11 and UCSD stuff.) The brands I remember are Vista and Lobo. I think Lobo had patches for 8" drive access via Microsoft Softcard and CP/M. Tim. From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 3 14:57:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 12:57:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: <200507022303.32579.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jul 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum declared on Saturday 02 July 2005 10:31 pm: > > Sallem, > > > > What kind of backups are they? Are they perhaps BSD Linux > > using the level0 backup method? What version of Linux are you > > currently running to do tape backup/restores? If it is a level0 (I'm > > rusting, so someone correct me if I'm mistaken) > > Uhm, I really doubt that Sellam is trying to do backups from his Linux > system to 9-track tapes... I'm sure that he's trying to read tapes > written on something else (like maybe a PDP11 or something) on the Linux > box. Correct. > Sellam, are you sure that your tape drive works, and that the SCSI chain > is properly terminated? An unterminated SCSI chain may be good enough > to pass forward/rewind commands, but have problems with data transfers > long enough to pass data to/from the tape. The tape drive was known to be working (I borrowed it from a Howard Harte who used it previously to read some tapes for me). However, the termination is something that I've been concerned with. Howard used it with a short (~3ft) SCSI cable. I'm using it with a longer (~6ft) cable. The tape drive has two 50-pin IDC connectors on the back. There's a ribbon cable coming out of one of the connectors with two amphenol connectors on the end. One amphenol connector is terminated, and the other is connected to my SCSI cable, which is then connected to my SCSI interface on the PC. The other 50-pin IDC connector is just open. I mentioned to Howard that this didn't look right but he said it always worked for him. I have (or at least I think I have) a terminator that will plug into a 50-pin IDC type connector, but I can't find it. I'm hoping that fixing this cabling mess will solve the problem. > If the SCSI chain is intact and terminated properly (you could stick > another device, maybe a SCSI HDD, on the chain to test that), then i'd > suspect the drive as being bad. Hmm, good idea. I hadn't thought to extend the chain to something that I can reliably terminate. I'll try again, though at this point I'd rather be shot in the head. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 3 14:59:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 12:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: <200507030437.j634bl3b019953@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Dennis Boone wrote: > > However, if I try to READ a file, and I've tried this with dd and > > Eric Smith's tapedump utility and whatnot, it always returns with > > 0 files read. It apparently sees the file marks as it will say its > > reading file 1, file 2, etc., but it never actually dumps anything. > > > > I've tried the multiple tapes at multiple densities and they are > > tapes I've read before on another system. > > Any idea what block size was used to write the tapes? Any relevant > messages in the kernel log (i.e. output of "dmesg")? Which /dev/device > are you using to access the drive? What's the dd command you're using? The block and record sizes are written on the tape label: 80 and 3200 respectively. However, adding these to the command line options don't fix anything. The dd command I used is simple: dd if=/dev/st0 of=tape.img I've since learned that I want to use the /dev/nrst0 device handle so that the tape does not rewind after every file operation. That's handy, but doesn't solve the problem. > > WTF??? > > Sounds like _my_ life. :-) I tell ya, I can understand that complicated shit will take time, but when something that should be easy gives me more grief than the most difficult things I've ever worked on, it makes you wonder. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 3 15:00:57 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:00:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info In-Reply-To: <20050703123132.MRDY5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Fred, > > >Check with Uncle Roger, if he's still around. > >I sold him two HC-20s (the Japanese model (different color, katakana > >on the keyboard, and different ROMs)), and gave him a tote of docs > >that included schematics. All the text is in Japanese, but a schematic > >is a schematic. > > Um... who is "Uncle Roger"? Is he a participant in this list? How to > contact him? Roger Sinasohn, all around cool dude and friend to everyone. http://www.sinasohn.com -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 3 15:07:29 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" Apple Disks? In-Reply-To: <42C83732.51B2CFD4@rain.org> References: <42C83732.51B2CFD4@rain.org> Message-ID: <20050703130232.Y48654@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > A friend of mine showed me some 8" disks labeled "Apple" written on the > label but did not have an Apple logo on them. Did Apple ever issue > software on 8" disks and/or support 8" drives? Sorrento Valley Associates (SVA) used to make a controller for Apple][ that did 8". Dick (who is now long gone) used to be quite enamored with them. There were a few others. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 3 15:02:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:02:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: <20050703140846.36122.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, David Comley wrote: > Could this be a driver issue ? I would verify that the > tape drive you're using is set up in the SCSI tape > subsystem. I went through a similar exercise for > Solaris with an Overland tape drive and I had to edit > and recompile st.c in order to correctly deal with the > drive. > > What type of tape drive is it - and which > version/flavor of Linux ? It's a Kennedy 9610: pretty common. I'm running under Knoppix. Perhaps not the best choice for this sort of thing, but then all the right device handles are there, as well as all the same tools you'd use on any flavor of Linux. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 3 15:05:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" Apple Disks? In-Reply-To: <42C83732.51B2CFD4@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > A friend of mine showed me some 8" disks labeled "Apple" written on the > label but did not have an Apple logo on them. Did Apple ever issue > software on 8" disks and/or support 8" drives? As far as I know, Apple did not, but there were third party 8" drives made for the Apple ][ (I have a subsystem). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jul 3 15:12:29 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 15:12:29 -0500 Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C846AD.3070903@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 2 Jul 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > >>Curt @ Atari Museum declared on Saturday 02 July 2005 10:31 pm: >> >>Uhm, I really doubt that Sellam is trying to do backups from his Linux >>system to 9-track tapes... I'm sure that he's trying to read tapes >>written on something else (like maybe a PDP11 or something) on the Linux >>box. > > > Correct. > > I'll try again, though at this point I'd rather be shot in the head. Sellam, if you have a scratch tape, the best way to validate your hardware is to write and then read a backup. tar, cpio or whatever. Obviously that won't address questions like head alignment, but it will tell you whether your SCSI chain is right and you're talking to the tape drive correctly. And in the unimaginable case that you don't have a scratch tape, contact me off-list. :) Doc From spc at conman.org Sun Jul 3 15:13:49 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:13:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PI/old IRIX questions In-Reply-To: from "Scott Quinn" at Jul 01, 2005 05:13:26 PM Message-ID: <20050703201350.5F11173029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great Scott Quinn once stated: > > Got my 4D/25 TG running (Thanks, Robert) with a new 3010 FPU. I have > IRIX 5.3, but even in 32MB it's somewhat slow and a bit unstable. Has > anyone on the list used 4.0.5 or 3.3? I have talked with someone in the > area who has a set of 3.3 tapes, but I don't want to bother him if > there are usability issues, and I haven't talked with anyone about > 4.0.5. Is there anyone who has used these? All i've seen are > screenshots and the fact that 3.3 is SysVr3+NeWS(?) and 4 is > SysVr3(+some r4)+X11, and that the IDO is needed for any practical > work. I have v5.3 & v6.5 Indigo2s, so I don't need it for 'serious' > work, just looking for recommendations & pointers. I used both 3.3 and 4.0.5 on an Iris 4D/35 back in college (10+ years ago). I *loved* 3.3 but it was rather difficult to compile anything using X under that system. The switch to 4.0.5 meant I could then compile and use X applications, but lost NeWS (which is an incredible windowing system---but then again, my machine was one of a handful on campus that actually *ran* NeWS, so I never got the change to really use it to its potential). Both worked well with the 16M RAM I had in the machine. -spc (Both should run winderfully on a 32M system ...) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 15:16:06 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:16:06 -0400 Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: References: <200507030437.j634bl3b019953@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 7/3/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I tell ya, I can understand that complicated shit will take time, but when > something that should be easy gives me more grief than the most difficult > things I've ever worked on, it makes you wonder. Well... termination and cable issues aside, I don't have any obvious things to recommend. I know that in my case, I got a DEC TSZ07, pulled out an Adaptec 1640 PCMCIA SCSI card, plugged it all together and was instantly dumping tapes onto my RH9 laptop. I think others have suggested some good things - test the SCSI chain with a hard disk, then add the tape drive. Perhaps try a different external cable. I've had those go bad on me every once in a long while. If you can get bits at all, it's no longer a pass/fail problem - it's one of those harder-to-track down problems upon which some wierd variable (phase of the moon, etc) is influencing. Not talking at all is much easier to solve. SCSI voodoo... remember, it _used to_ be hard to get some things working. Tape drives never got the same attention as disk drives, and it's less unexpected to fall into a pit trying something new. -ethan From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jul 3 15:20:25 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 15:20:25 -0500 Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C84889.9090204@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > The dd command I used is simple: > > dd if=/dev/st0 of=tape.img > > I've since learned that I want to use the /dev/nrst0 device handle so that > the tape does not rewind after every file operation. That's handy, but > doesn't solve the problem. That also only reads 1 record from the tape. I've had good luck with Michael Sokolov's tape utilities (mktape?), and not-wonderful luck in general extracting non-Unix tapes in Linux. NetBSD or FreeBSD tend to be a little less idiosyncratic about the tape devices themselves. You may also, depending on your SCSI adapter and the tape drive, need to tell the drive either the block size explicitly (each time it changes) or set it to variable. If I'm having trouble reading a stacked tape (multiple files), that's usually the problem. And in Linux, YMMV with the variable setting. > I tell ya, I can understand that complicated shit will take time, but when > something that should be easy gives me more grief than the most difficult > things I've ever worked on, it makes you wonder. I think the "should be easy" part was the crucial mistake. ;) Doc From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Jul 3 15:23:15 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 22:23:15 +0200 Subject: My PDP-8 Cards In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <494216E0-EC00-11D9-8363-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Am zondag, 03.07.05, um 16:09 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Joe R.: > I spent a big part of yesterday sorting out the DEC cards that I've > been > picking up the last couple of weeks. This morning I photographed SOME > of > the PDP-8 cards. Take a look > there's definitely > some > odd stuff there! This is just a small part of the ones that I got. > I'll add > more photos and (hopefully) descriptions later. If anyone wants to > take a > stab at identifing some of the third party cards and/or writing a > description I'll be glad to post it. > The ECRM cards you've got are hardware speedups for OCR scanning. Yes PDP8's were used for OCR ! Some ECRM cards are very usefull, but those aren't. Nevertheless I have all info on those boards should you want do do something with them. ECRM has a two card 24x80 VDU option and a multi-io ( RS232, PPT, printer) all one one omnibus card. That are the truly usefull ones. btw ECRM is still in business... Jos Dreesen From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 3 15:23:18 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info In-Reply-To: <20050703123132.MRDY5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050703123132.MRDY5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <20050703131250.P48654@shell.lmi.net> > >Check with Uncle Roger, if he's still around. > >I sold him two HC-20s (the Japanese model (different color, katakana > >on the keyboard, and different ROMs)), and gave him a tote of docs > >that included schematics. All the text is in Japanese, but a schematic > >is a schematic. On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Fred, > Um... who is "Uncle Roger"? Is he a participant in this list? How to > contact him? Roger Sinasohn? (aka "Uncle Roger") is/was a collector in San Francisco who specialized in laptops. He got half a dozen totes of Gavilan and Epson HC20 stuff from me when I had to clear out of my office. There was a lot of Epson docs in Japanese. I haven't heard anything from or about him in a few years; I hope that he is OK. Sellam might know of a current address for him; the most recent ones that I have are: Roger Sinasohn Uncle Roger Good luck, -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 3 15:24:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" Message-ID: Here's the response I got from the seller who listed that plywood box with keyboard mounted to it: "I am so sorry for the late response. I did not even know about this ebay messages, I have 53 messages now to go through. I thought they all went to my email account. But I guess only some do. Again, I was not trying to dodge your question. I have missed many about 90%. I was not aware of this change in yahoo email." That's his "answer", which I really appreciate because, you know, I would really be bothered if the guy tried to dodge my question. Of course, this doesn't explain how he somehow didn't miss the 5 questions he did respond to which are displayed on the auction page (see for yourself: item #5213140640). BTW, I received this same exact message twice in response to the two inquiries I submitted to him, so I'm sure the other 53 questions got "answered" in a similar fashion. Another fine example of why I can't stand eBay. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From marvin at rain.org Sun Jul 3 15:51:00 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 13:51:00 -0700 Subject: 8" Apple Disks? Message-ID: <42C84FB4.EA0A2B4A@rain.org> This makes sense since he also has quite a bit of Lobo Drives stuff including two Lobo HD/8" Floppy units and a dual Lobo 8" floppy unit. One of the floppies had "CP/M" in the description, so it sounds like I need to take care to keep stuff together. And I will certainly keep my open for SVA and other Apple II controllers ... now that I know they exist :). Thanks for the responses! > > Did Apple ever [...] support 8" drives? > (Typically they were used for interchange with CP/M systems, although > I know of a few used to exchange RT-11 and UCSD stuff.) > > The brands I remember are Vista and Lobo. I think Lobo had patches > for 8" drive access via Microsoft Softcard and CP/M. > > Tim. From shirsch at adelphia.net Sun Jul 3 15:59:07 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:59:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 8" Apple Disks? In-Reply-To: <20050703130232.Y48654@shell.lmi.net> References: <42C83732.51B2CFD4@rain.org> <20050703130232.Y48654@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > A friend of mine showed me some 8" disks labeled "Apple" written on the > > label but did not have an Apple logo on them. Did Apple ever issue > > software on 8" disks and/or support 8" drives? > > Sorrento Valley Associates (SVA) used to make a controller for Apple][ > that did 8". > Dick (who is now long gone) used to be quite enamored with them. > > There were a few others. I think I own one of each: SVA Megaflex Vista A1000 Taurus Corvus and one or two others whose names escape me. Steve From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 3 13:17:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 19:17:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120397030.8144.16.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 3, 5 01:23:50 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 2005-07-02 at 23:10 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I don't have any kind of docs for a tape-only system though; only ones > > > > Nor do I. I've never actually seen a system without disk drives either, > > although I am pretty sure they existed. > > We've got several 380Z's (well, two or three) that have no drives in > them - I expect those are tape-only systems. Unfortunately I've never Thay may have been used with external floppy units. The only way to be sure is to see what PCBs are inside. > had time to look inside them as there's always been something more > important to do! I know we've got one of the 8" drive setups too which > are rather rare, plus we've got one 380Z-FD machine which should have > the "full disk" controller in it (on-board RAM, ROM, its own Z80 cpu > etc.). I was readign the 380Z service manual on vt100.net this morning. It was the first time I'd come across this board, it looks rather fun. I thought the 'full disk' controller was the 8" one (which was essentially the same as the normal 380Z controller), and that the one with the on-board Z80 was the Intellegent Disk Controller. But I could well be wrong. > > (Said disk controller also has the SIO-4 on board, and the on-board FWIW, the normal, non-intellegent disk controller has a SIO-4 on the same PCB, but it's nothing to do with the disk controller function. Obviously on that board you can go from serial port to disk without using the rest of the machine. I believe the SIO-4 board (also SIO-5, SIO-6) was just a disk controller board with the serial chips fitted and the disk controller chips not fitted. Much as the RAM expansion board is the same PCB as the CPU board, but you leave off the CPU and buffers, etc. > firmware should allow communication direct between the disks and the > serial port - I believe it's the same board as used for the 480Z shared > disk system) That's what the service manual implied. I have a 480Z (one of the older metal-cased ones), but no disk unit for it. > > What we don't have is keyboards. In some cases that's not such a big > deal as with the later serial boards they could run from a terminal > rather than system keyboard & display. The keyboard interface spec is in the Information File and service manual. The latter also contains a scheamtic of _a_ keyboard, but from what I rmemeber the one I have is very different. Not that said schematic is a lot of use for making one, since the contents of the microcontroller firmware ROM are not know. The keyboard I have (and from what I remember we had at school) has a single 40 pin custom chip in it, nothing more. It would eb a fairly simple microcontroller project to make an interface from a PC keyboard (the old XT, AT, PS/2 ones) to the RML keyboard connector. > > Pity. I'd hoped at least one original RML cassette esisted somewhere. > > >From reading the manual, it appers that the phase of the replay signal is > > critical (it was with some other tape interfaces too) and I was hoping I > > could get an original tape to set up against. Oh well.... > > Presumably saving some data on one (or more) tape-based system(s) would > be enough to you to read it one yours and setup against that. Not as No. What you need is the original (or known-to-be standard) cassette recorder. The point is that if the signal is inverted at any point, the system will not read high-speed (1200 baud) tapes reliably. I think it assumes a cycle starts with a rising edge, and if the signal is inverted, transistions between 1 and 0 bits on the tape and vice versa as seen by the system as odd-length cycles. This is explained (badly) in the information file. Years ago I made an RS232-CUTS tape interface unit. It suffered from much the same problem, I included switches to invert the record and replay phase. I found that you could _not_ depend on cheap cassette recorded getting the phase right, or even being consistent between record and replay. In other words, to load a 'standard' tape (in my case I used a commercially-produced BasicCode tape), you would have to invert the replay signal with some recorders and not others. And once you'd got that right, you would have to invert the record signal with some recorders and not others to get it to record a tape that would load with the same setting as the BasicCode tape. In the xase of the 380Z, what I want to do is to try to load a real RML tape, sort out the replay phase using that, then sort out the recording phase so I can load my own recordings. Oh well... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 3 15:41:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 21:41:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info In-Reply-To: <20050703123001.MQOO5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jul 3, 5 08:30:02 am Message-ID: > > Hi Tony, > > >Now, I would start by checking that LCD supply voltage signal. It starts > >on the main board where IC 2C (4049) acts as an oscillator and driver to > >operate a voltage doubler, You should see about 7V (I think) on the +ve > >end of C1 or C6. This then goes up to the keyboard, to a 2 transistor > >voltage controller circuit there. Check for an adjustable voltage (set > >with the thumbwheel on the side of the machine) at the emitter of Q2 on > >the keyboard. This voltage, BTW, is fed back to the mainboard to power > >some of the ICs that connect to the LCD driver chips. > > Thanks for the useful information. > > I am seeing only about 3.5v on C1/C6 ... and it has about a 1v DC > square(ish) wave superimposed on it. I see the same voltage/waveform at I suspect thost capacitors have dried up. There's no way there should be that sort of ripple on the +ve side of those capacitors. > I see lots of very healty looking 5v square waves coming out of IC2C, > however I am having a great deal of difficulty trying to trace the circuit > on the board. Can you give me a bit more of the circuit? Which pins > coming out of IC2C are driving the power supply, and what is the circuit > between these and C1? 1000pF VL 820k C31 --- R78 || | +--\/\/\---+--||----+ |\ +----------------+ | | || | +--| >o-----+ | | | / | | |/ 2C/c | | C12 === | \ R74 | | | | 47uF --- | / 390k | | |\ | V D6 | | \ | +-=| >o-----+ --- 1S2075 --- | | | | |/ 2C/b | 10u | /// | |\ | |\ | | | C2 | +--| >o----+-| >o---+------+ |\ | | [] | +---VLD |/ |/ +--| >o-----+--| []---+--->|----+--------+ 2C/d 2C/e | |/ 2C/a | | [] D7 | | | | 1S2075 | | | |\ | | | +--| >o-----+ C1 === C6 === |/ 2C/f | 10uF --- 10uF --- | | | D5 --- --- --- 1S2705 ^ /// /// | --- /// That's an ASCII-art version of the appropriate bit of the schematic. Section d )Input on 10, output on 10) and e (input on 11, output on 12) of IC 2C form the oscillator, the other 4 inverters are paralleled up as the driver. Hope that helps. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 3 16:08:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 14:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: <42C846AD.3070903@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > Sellam, if you have a scratch tape, the best way to validate your > hardware is to write and then read a backup. tar, cpio or whatever. Indeed. I thought of doing this last night so I'll attempt this when I next try to get this stuff working. :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 3 16:11:51 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 14:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info In-Reply-To: <20050703131250.P48654@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > I haven't heard anything from or about him in a few years; I hope > that he is OK. Sellam might know of a current address for him; > the most recent ones that I have are: > Roger Sinasohn > Uncle Roger Well, Ricochet is long dead (sigh) but his sinasohn.com domain and e-mail address are still quite active. Roger is doing fine. He now mainly devotes his time to his two beautiful kids (a boy and a girl). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 3 17:02:25 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 22:02:25 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120428145.9274.26.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-07-03 at 19:17 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > We've got several 380Z's (well, two or three) that have no drives in > > them - I expect those are tape-only systems. Unfortunately I've never > > Thay may have been used with external floppy units. The only way to be > sure is to see what PCBs are inside. It's on my to-do list... it's just been there for about a year now :-) > > important to do! I know we've got one of the 8" drive setups too which > > are rather rare, plus we've got one 380Z-FD machine which should have > > the "full disk" controller in it (on-board RAM, ROM, its own Z80 cpu > > etc.). > > I was readign the 380Z service manual on vt100.net this morning. It was > the first time I'd come across this board, it looks rather fun. > > I thought the 'full disk' controller was the 8" one (which was > essentially the same as the normal 380Z controller), and that the one > with the on-board Z80 was the Intellegent Disk Controller. But I could > well be wrong. Hmm... I've only seen schematics for two different disk controllers - the simple one (still with an SIO-4 on board) with an FD1771 IC on board, and the one that I thought was the 'full disk' controller with the on-board CPU etc. Far as I know, the former board is FM only and can put about 70KB on a disk, whilst the latter one can do MFM and gets about 240KB on a disk. I'll have to have a look inside our FD machine and see what disk board it has... > FWIW, the normal, non-intellegent disk controller has a SIO-4 on the same > PCB, but it's nothing to do with the disk controller function. Obviously > on that board you can go from serial port to disk without using the rest > of the machine. Yep. :-) > I believe the SIO-4 board (also SIO-5, SIO-6) was just a disk controller > board with the serial chips fitted and the disk controller chips not > fitted. Ahhh, that's an SIO-4C according to the disk system info file - the board for the SIO-4 always has the disk controller circuitry with it according to that doc. RML didn't half make things confusing. > Much as the RAM expansion board is the same PCB as the CPU board, > but you leave off the CPU and buffers, etc. Actually, info on the various PAL chips would be handy; RML didn't half like stuffing PAL chips with different colour codings into all their stuff, and I'm not aware that the equations are documented anywhere. (Your mention of the RAM board made me think of that, as the PAL is different for a RAM board versus the equivalent on the CPU board) > > firmware should allow communication direct between the disks and the > > serial port - I believe it's the same board as used for the 480Z shared > > disk system) > > That's what the service manual implied. I have a 480Z (one of the older > metal-cased ones), but no disk unit for it. Aha, I've got a 480Z disk unit here - never tried it as I need to sit down and figure out the cable wiring which puts a bit of extra time on the task. > > What we don't have is keyboards. In some cases that's not such a big > > deal as with the later serial boards they could run from a terminal > > rather than system keyboard & display. > > The keyboard interface spec is in the Information File and service > manual. The latter also contains a scheamtic of _a_ keyboard, but from > what I rmemeber the one I have is very different. It does seem that there were a few different keyboards, but I'm not sure how they differed internally. Far as I know, they all talked the same protocol to the CPU though. I think hacking a PC keyboard to work with a 380Z would spoil the machine though :-) I'd rather use a period terminal and drive things that way. Hitting a key on the terminal at system start should be enough to wake things up and tell the 380Z to use the terminal as input rather than the usual keyboard. Can't remember if there's a way of telling it what device to use as output, though... > In the xase of the 380Z, what I want to do is to try to load a real RML > tape, sort out the replay phase using that, then sort out the recording > phase so I can load my own recordings. I'll double check regarding tapes. I've got about half of Bletchley's RML software here, and one of the other guys has the rest - so it may be that he has one or more tapes... cheers Jules From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 3 17:01:02 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 18:01:02 -0400 Subject: My PDP-8 Cards In-Reply-To: <494216E0-EC00-11D9-8363-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> References: <3.0.6.32.20050703100908.009c9a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050703180102.00a70100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Jos, Thanks for the info. Can you tell me what the cards that I have do? I'd like to be able to tell something about them. As far as OCR is concerned, at least part of this stuff came from a "DECStation 310" that was used for word processing. I have the Engineering Drawings for the DECStation 310 (I THINK that is the correct name) and a plastic rack panel marked "WPS-8". Joe At 10:23 PM 7/3/05 +0200, you wrote: > >Am zondag, 03.07.05, um 16:09 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Joe R.: > >> I spent a big part of yesterday sorting out the DEC cards that I've >> been >> picking up the last couple of weeks. This morning I photographed SOME >> of >> the PDP-8 cards. Take a look >> there's definitely >> some >> odd stuff there! This is just a small part of the ones that I got. >> I'll add >> more photos and (hopefully) descriptions later. If anyone wants to >> take a >> stab at identifing some of the third party cards and/or writing a >> description I'll be glad to post it. >> > >The ECRM cards you've got are hardware speedups for OCR scanning. >Yes PDP8's were used for OCR ! > Some ECRM cards are very usefull, but those aren't. >Nevertheless I have all info on those boards should you want do do >something with them. > > >ECRM has a two card 24x80 VDU option and a multi-io ( RS232, PPT, >printer) all one one omnibus card. >That are the truly usefull ones. > >btw ECRM is still in business... > > > Jos Dreesen > > From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jul 3 17:32:00 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 17:32:00 -0500 Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: References: <200507022303.32579.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050703172719.051e4b60@mail> At 02:57 PM 7/3/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >However, the termination is something that I've been concerned with. >Howard used it with a short (~3ft) SCSI cable. I'm using it with a longer >(~6ft) cable. The tape drive has two 50-pin IDC connectors on the back. >There's a ribbon cable coming out of one of the connectors with two >amphenol connectors on the end. One amphenol connector is terminated, and >the other is connected to my SCSI cable, which is then connected to my >SCSI interface on the PC. The other 50-pin IDC connector is just open. I >mentioned to Howard that this didn't look right but he said it always >worked for him. > >I have (or at least I think I have) a terminator that will plug into a >50-pin IDC type connector, but I can't find it. I'm hoping that fixing >this cabling mess will solve the problem. Ah, termination. I never believed it was right until I took apart every device and confirmed the wiring. I've seen commercial external SCSI boxes wired the wrong way inside (making illegal 'T's instead of daisy-chain), making proper termination impossible. Good cables can make a difference. Your 6-foot versus Howard's 3-foot could make a difference. Try swapping cables. >I'll try again, though at this point I'd rather be shot in the head. Obviously it's not going to work without the SCSI blood sacrifice. - John From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jul 3 17:36:23 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 18:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Here's the response I got from the seller who listed that plywood box with > keyboard mounted to it: I should mentioned (a bit late, maybe) that I had an "issue" with the seller of the wooden Apple thing some time ago. Basically, I do not trust him one bit. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sun Jul 3 17:42:04 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 17:42:04 -0500 Subject: Swapping Hi density drives for low density drives Message-ID: <42C869BC.4080601@brutman.com> I thought I had this mastered but apparently I don't, and it's driving me nuts. Background: The PCjr, PC and XT use floppy controllers that support double density data rates. High density drives (1.2MB & 1.44MB) obviously support faster data rates, but also support the slower data rates for compatibility with double density media. A nice upgrade for an old machine is to add a 3.5" floppy drive. Genuine 720K double density drives are pretty hard to find now, but of course 1.44MB drives are all over the place. The 1.44 MB drives have nearly the same pinout as a classic 5.25 double density drive, and they usually have a media sensor switch which forces them to use a slower data rate when using double density media. So I swapped the 5.25 double density drive from a PCjr and replaced it with a 1.44MB drive. The Jr can't tell the difference electrically - it wil just use 40 of the 80 tracks. Everything else will be the same. It ran diagnosics and made all of the right noises, then failed. Hmm. So I took the double density media I was using and cut a copy of DOS 3.3 onto it and tried again. Disk boot failure. Hmm.. bad media. Tried again, different diskette. Hmm.. consistent. To make a long story short: - Original IBM DOS 3.3 diskette: boots and runs fine in any drive. - DOS 3.3 copied onto a diskette by Windows or Linux using a 1.44MB drive and booted in a Jr with a 1.44MB drive: boot failure, but disk is readable. Just parts of track 0 are unreadable. - DOS 3.3 copied onto a diskette by the PCjr using a 1.44MB drive. (Booted first with the genuine DOS 3.3, tried to format /s.) Formatting failed - bad media. (Media is good on other machines.) So I found a genuine 720K drive, put it in the Jr, booted DOS and copied DOS again. Then I put the 1.44MB drive back in and booted from the new diskette. It worked! Basically, it's behaving like the 1.44MB drives in both the bigger PCs and on the Jr can't format the 720K media correctly. And I tried several drives (Sony and Teac) and it failed consistently. A real 720 drive can create a diskette that the other drives can boot from. (The bigger PCs with the 1.44MB drives *dont* have a problem with the copied diskette.) Just whipped out the multimeter. The 1.44MB drive definitely sees double density media - pin 2 is being driven high for double density media where normally it would be low. The controller ignores it either way, has pin 2 was unused back then. Does anybody have experience with doing something like this? I thought that the 1.44MB drives had a media sensor that would slow down the recording rate when using double density media. There should have been no problem coping/formatting double density media. And yet, here I am ... Mike From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 3 17:51:55 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 15:51:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Swapping Hi density drives for low density drives In-Reply-To: <42C869BC.4080601@brutman.com> References: <42C869BC.4080601@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20050703154415.A48899@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Jul 2005, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Does anybody have experience with doing something like this? I thought > that the 1.44MB drives had a media sensor that would slow down the > recording rate when using double density media. There should have been > no problem coping/formatting double density media. And yet, here I am ... The media sensor does NOT control the data transfer rate. It only controls the write current level. For READing and WRITEing, the BIOS will try both rates to "find" what works. When FORMATing, the software selects the rate, based on what YOU specify. When you formatted on the other machines, did you do /F:2 or /F:720 or /T:80/N:9 ? If not, then you probably ended up with 1.4M, which the JR cannot read. BTW, FORMAT, particularly the ones in 3.20 and 3.30 will often fail and falsely report media problems if the transfer buffer happens to straddle a 64K boundary. Adding or removing TSRs will move it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 3 17:55:13 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 22:55:13 +0000 Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120431313.9274.48.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-07-03 at 12:57 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > However, the termination is something that I've been concerned with. > Howard used it with a short (~3ft) SCSI cable. I'm using it with a longer > (~6ft) cable. The tape drive has two 50-pin IDC connectors on the back. > There's a ribbon cable coming out of one of the connectors with two > amphenol connectors on the end. One amphenol connector is terminated, and > the other is connected to my SCSI cable, which is then connected to my > SCSI interface on the PC. Umm, that's plain wrong. SCSI's just a single bus which needs to be terminated at each end, nowhere inbetween. The controller can be anywhere physically on the bus so long as termination rules are observed. It really is that simple. Sounds like what you have is something where one end of the bus is terminated *before* the last device (the tape drive). That *might* just work (often with the odd data error during use) on a short cable or at a low speed, but it's still wrong. Not sure what controller you're using, but you might need to drop the transfer rate in the BIOS too for that particular device if it's a bit old and clunky. I've never worked out why people think SCSI's so complex - it's always seemed easy to me; the only hassle is tracing oddball data faults when running close to the limit of performance and with a fully loaded bus. > I have (or at least I think I have) a terminator that will plug into a > 50-pin IDC type connector, but I can't find it. I'm hoping that fixing > this cabling mess will solve the problem. Does the drive not have termination built-in that's activated by a jumper? That's reasonably common, even on really old drives. Worst case, grab any old SCSI disk that can also do termination and put *that* at the end of the bus 'past' the tape drive; power it from an old PC PSU or something. (as someone else has suggested) > I'll try again, though at this point I'd rather be shot in the head. it's easy :) Seriously, I've always had more trouble with IDE setups than I have with SCSI (usually because the drives / cables / controllers tend to be cheap crap) have fun! Jules From dave04a at dunfield.com Sun Jul 3 18:26:32 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 19:26:32 -0400 Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info Message-ID: <20050703232627.NXTE16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Fred, Sellam : Thanks for the info on "Uncle Roger", I'll keep it on file as a reference. Tony sez: > 1000pF VL > 820k C31 --- > R78 || | > +--\/\/\---+--||----+ |\ +----------------+ > | | || | +--| >o-----+ | | > | / | | |/ 2C/c | | C12 === > | \ R74 | | | | 47uF --- > | / 390k | | |\ | V D6 | > | \ | +-=| >o-----+ --- 1S2075 --- > | | | | |/ 2C/b | 10u | /// > | |\ | |\ | | | C2 | > +--| >o----+-| >o---+------+ |\ | | [] | +---VLD > |/ |/ +--| >o-----+--| []---+--->|----+--------+ > 2C/d 2C/e | |/ 2C/a | | [] D7 | | > | | 1S2075 | | > | |\ | | | > +--| >o-----+ C1 === C6 === > |/ 2C/f | 10uF --- 10uF --- > | | | > D5 --- --- --- > 1S2705 ^ /// /// > | > --- > /// > >That's an ASCII-art version of the appropriate bit of the schematic. Section >d )Input on 10, output on 10) and e (input on 11, output on 12) of IC 2C form >the oscillator, the other 4 inverters are paralleled up as the driver. > >Hope that helps. Thanks - it did. I followed the "AC" through, and could see a nice waveform coming out of the 2C driver, however from there it degraded to what I described before at the C1 cap - on a hunch I replaced C1, and the voltage rose to about 7v, and the display was readable, however it was also flickering, and I could see the voltage rising and falling by a couple of volts - I replaced C6 and now it's rock solid, and the display is perfect. C1 and C6 were identical 10uf 16v caps, and that fact that both appeared to have failed gives me concern for the other electrolitics in the machine, which I will check out shortly... but notwithstanding that the machine is functioning perfectly. Next problem is that the microcassette drive appears to be "stuck" with the heads and capstan forward - not really stuck, as you can push them back on their spring, however they are not retained back as they should be - prevents inserting and removing tapes - I haven't opened it yet, but will shortly ... is there any useful info about the drive machanics in the service manual? I assume there must be some kind of solinoid and latch to hold them back and release them? Once again: THANKS! for taking the time to "ascii art" the LCD power supply schematic ... VERY much appreciated! Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From KParker at workcover.com Sun Jul 3 19:00:51 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 09:30:51 +0930 Subject: KVM Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4C1EF@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Apologies if this is OT I've been amassing bits and pieces to build my own little data centre at home (all rack mount stuff - some of which is probably approaching classic anyway). All I'm missing at the moment are two racks (an integral part of a rack mount system :-) but I think I've sourced a couple locally (they're to expensive to ship from interstate) and a KVM switch (8 port minimum). Everyone wants a truck load of $ for KVM switches and I figure for the price it might be more fun to build one but I've been struggling to locate a circuit diagram. I figure they're just a fancy switch of some type. Anyone have any pointers please? TIA!!! ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From news at computercollector.com Sun Jul 3 19:19:18 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 20:19:18 -0400 Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507040025.j640PAuO043604@keith.ezwind.net> I got that too. What an asshole. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Sunday, July 03, 2005 4:25 PM To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" Here's the response I got from the seller who listed that plywood box with keyboard mounted to it: "I am so sorry for the late response. I did not even know about this ebay messages, I have 53 messages now to go through. I thought they all went to my email account. But I guess only some do. Again, I was not trying to dodge your question. I have missed many about 90%. I was not aware of this change in yahoo email." That's his "answer", which I really appreciate because, you know, I would really be bothered if the guy tried to dodge my question. Of course, this doesn't explain how he somehow didn't miss the 5 questions he did respond to which are displayed on the auction page (see for yourself: item #5213140640). BTW, I received this same exact message twice in response to the two inquiries I submitted to him, so I'm sure the other 53 questions got "answered" in a similar fashion. Another fine example of why I can't stand eBay. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cb at mythtech.net Sun Jul 3 19:24:24 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 20:24:24 -0400 Subject: KVM Message-ID: >Everyone wants a truck load of $ for KVM switches and I figure for the >price it might be more fun to build one but I've been struggling to >locate a circuit diagram. I figure they're just a fancy switch of some >type. I found an 8 port KVM on ebay with a BIN price of $70 and something like $15 shipping. It was some generic brand, but it was rack mountable and came will all neccessary cables. I know at the time (a few months ago now), the guy had a bunch of them available. They were all listed as new (and mine certainly showed no signs of ever having been opened before). It has worked perfectly for me since I installed it. The only complaint I had about it was the size was a hair too wide for proper rack mounting. It fit inside standard 19" rack rails, but needed to be jammed into place, and then the holes to mount it to the rack didn't line up with the holes in the rails. Less then a milimeter off, but it was enough to keep the screws from going in. (I got around it by first mounting the ears, and then forcing the KVM into place between the ears, and then screwing the ears to the KVM... its in, and works fine, it just took a little effort) The unit only supports PS/2 devices, however I am successfully using it with PS/2 -> AT keyboard adaptors on a few machines. I have no idea if using an auto sensing PS/2/Serial mouse and adaptors at the computer would work thru it or not (I've not tried to do that). If I need another 8, I'd probably buy another one of them without question (it is also daisy chainable, so if I need another 8, I can tie them together and still use just one Key/Mouse/CRT for all 16 devices). Alas, I don't recall the brand name, but if you can't turn it up on ebay just by looking at descriptions, let me know and I'll check the name on Tuesday when I am back in the office. -chris From medavidson at mac.com Sun Jul 3 19:33:12 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 17:33:12 -0700 Subject: Surplus in Silicon Valley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you go to Weird Stuff, see if you can get a tour of the back warehouse... that's where the real fun stuff can be found... Of course, if you are in the market for an Onyx (BIG SGI machine), they have 2 out in the warehouse. All you need is a big truck and 3-phase power. :) Mark Davidson medavidson at mac.com On Jun 24, 2005, at 6:23 AM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > I'm headed out to the San Francisco area at the end of July: > area there any worthwhile surplus outfits to visit? I'm already > planning to hit Halted and Weird Stuff, just for the hell of it. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html > The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/ > ~mloewen/B9/ > Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > From spc at conman.org Sun Jul 3 19:57:03 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 20:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KVM In-Reply-To: from "chris" at Jul 03, 2005 08:24:24 PM Message-ID: <20050704005704.003FB73029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great chris once stated: > > The unit only supports PS/2 devices, however I am successfully using it > with PS/2 -> AT keyboard adaptors on a few machines. I have no idea if > using an auto sensing PS/2/Serial mouse and adaptors at the computer > would work thru it or not (I've not tried to do that). > > If I need another 8, I'd probably buy another one of them without > question (it is also daisy chainable, so if I need another 8, I can tie > them together and still use just one Key/Mouse/CRT for all 16 devices). > > Alas, I don't recall the brand name, but if you can't turn it up on ebay > just by looking at descriptions, let me know and I'll check the name on > Tuesday when I am back in the office. Sounds similar to the Belkin Omniview (which I use---it was given to me by someone that no longer needed it). I too am using a PS/2->AT adaptor for a few of the units with no problem, but the PS/2->serial mouse adaptors won't work through it---I've tried. Well rather, what didn't work was: PS/2 mouse -> KVM -> PS/2 cable -> serial adaptor -> computer The unit I have also supports serial ports, so I suppose the following *may* work: PS/2 mouse -> serial adaptor -> KVM -> serial cable -> computer but I haven't tried that. -spc (You can daisy-chain up to 8 Belkin units ... ) From cb at mythtech.net Sun Jul 3 20:31:40 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 21:31:40 -0400 Subject: KVM Message-ID: > Sounds similar to the Belkin Omniview (which I use---it was given to me by >someone that no longer needed it). I too am using a PS/2->AT adaptor for a >few of the units with no problem, but the PS/2->serial mouse adaptors won't >work through it---I've tried. Well rather, what didn't work was: > > PS/2 mouse -> KVM -> PS/2 cable -> serial adaptor -> computer > > The unit I have also supports serial ports, so I suppose the following >*may* work: > > PS/2 mouse -> serial adaptor -> KVM -> serial cable -> computer > > but I haven't tried that. I have a 4 port one of those as well (in fact, the 8 port no name brand one was replacing my 4 port Belkin). My Belkin supported PS/2 for Mouse/Keyboard and AT Keyboard and Serial Mouse. I could hook up any combination and it passed or adapted all the signals. Very nice unit. Worked pretty well, although I had some problems with it syncing to Windows NT 4 (I would have to wait about 30 seconds after switching to an NT machine before I could use the mouse, if I tried before waiting, it would just randomly bounce all over the screen clicking... I got myself into a couple of bad situations that way as it decided to click on the wrong thing). I originally was looking on ebay for another of the 4 Port Belkin OmniView units I have, but all the used ones were going for close to, or even over the price of the 8 port no name one I got. And none of the Belkin ones had cables or the rack mount frame, which meant the final price would be even higher. So I gave the no name brand a try, and I've been very happy with it. The other nice thing is the Belkin took up 2.5 rack spaces, which means if I got a 2nd one, I'd have lost a total of 5 spaces to run 8 items. The no name brand is a 1u device so I saved quite a bit of rack space. -chris From computer at officereach.net Sun Jul 3 20:52:37 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 18:52:37 -0700 Subject: Surplus in Silicon Valley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's a place that I love called Mike Quinn's , in Oakland, on Adams Street; which basically is 1/4 mile East of Hegenberger & Adams. To be precise, it's exactly 1 1/2 miles south-east of the Oakland Airport. Basically, it's a graveyard for everything - and there's not a price tag in the place - so everything is negotiatable; Don't spend time asking for what the prices are - this makes them mad. And don't call - even if they have a part, they'll tell you no. BUT it's a goldmine for EVERYTHING you can imagine, from old 40XX and 74XX logic components, to MFM drives, power supplies, PCs, RS-232 terminals, and testing equipment. Last time I was there, they just received about 80 machines Silicon Graphics machines from the folks at (un-named local graphics shop for movie industry). The drives were flashed with the OS only. Okay, so there's a lot of stuff there. I have very often brought them stuff, and only gone back to re-purchase it later on (heh...) or in the case that I picked up some nice parts from Quinn's, and put on ebay, they were bought by a Rusiian Aerospace Company, which they responded quite frustratingly when they discovered that I had written out a "Materials Manifest" when sending them to Russia via U.S. Postal Service on the Customs Declarations. "High Quality Milled Aluminum Parts for ??? Purpose". Now, a lot of people won't tell you about Quinn's electronics , because it's sort of a secret place that people like to go - and because it's reasonable, but it's really the most awesome place I have ever gone to in the bay area for electronics. Aaron -----Original Message----- From: Mark Davidson To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 17:33:12 -0700 Subject: Re: Surplus in Silicon Valley > If you go to Weird Stuff, see if you can get a tour of the back > warehouse... that's where the real fun stuff can be found... Of > course, if you are in the market for an Onyx (BIG SGI machine), they > have 2 out in the warehouse. All you need is a big truck and 3-phase > power. :) > > Mark Davidson > medavidson at mac.com > > On Jun 24, 2005, at 6:23 AM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > > > > I'm headed out to the San Francisco area at the end of July: > > area there any worthwhile surplus outfits to visit? I'm already > > planning to hit Halted and Weird Stuff, just for the hell of it. > > > > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > > The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html > > The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/ > > ~mloewen/B9/ > > Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 3 21:00:40 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 19:00:40 -0700 Subject: Help setting up a SBS/Bit3 PCI-to-VMEBus cards Message-ID: <42C89848.3000504@bitsavers.org> Does anyone know how to set these boards up? I have a SBS 616 PCI adapter and its corresponding VMEBus adapter. -- pdfs of manuals for both boards were up on the bit3 web site. If you can't find them there any more i'll put them on bitsavers. does your VME card have the shared memory daughter card? From rcini at optonline.net Sun Jul 3 22:15:18 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 23:15:18 -0400 Subject: Another S100 manual request Message-ID: <009501c58046$9b7fd7c0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: As I slog through the S100 card collection I got with the IMSAI a few weeks ago, I keep finding RAM cards from different manufacturers. I now need a manual for a Solid State Music MB7 16k board. If anyone has it, please let me know. Of course, the offer stands for me to scan it for the group. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 3 22:13:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 04:13:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120428145.9274.26.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 3, 5 10:02:25 pm Message-ID: > > I thought the 'full disk' controller was the 8" one (which was > > essentially the same as the normal 380Z controller), and that the one > > with the on-board Z80 was the Intellegent Disk Controller. But I could > > well be wrong. > > Hmm... I've only seen schematics for two different disk controllers - There are only 2 boards. The 8" controller is the same as the non-intellegent 5.25" one. There are notes on the schematic for the link settings for the FDS (== 8") and MDS (== 5.25") versions. > Far as I know, the former board is FM only and can put about 70KB on a The 1771 is certainly FM (single density) only. > disk, whilst the latter one can do MFM and gets about 240KB on a disk. I've not seriously looked at those schematics yet... > > Much as the RAM expansion board is the same PCB as the CPU board, > > but you leave off the CPU and buffers, etc. > > Actually, info on the various PAL chips would be handy; RML didn't half THere were no PALs in the original set of boards (CPU, VDU, hi-res, disk, etc). WHat there were -- and were to excess -- were small bipolar PROMs. Those were often colour-coded. I will have to check, but I may well have dumps of some of those somewhere. > > That's what the service manual implied. I have a 480Z (one of the older > > metal-cased ones), but no disk unit for it. > > Aha, I've got a 480Z disk unit here - never tried it as I need to sit > down and figure out the cable wiring which puts a bit of extra time on > the task. It would be useful to know the protocol that the 480Z uses to talk to the disk unit. From what I remember, though,, it uses the serial chips in synchronous mode, which means finding another machine that could act as a disk server would not be totally trivial. > It does seem that there were a few different keyboards, but I'm not sure > how they differed internally. Far as I know, they all talked the same > protocol to the CPU though. They did. 7 bit ASCII code and a strobe line. That much is documented in the Infroation File. > > I think hacking a PC keyboard to work with a 380Z would spoil the > machine though :-) I'd rather use a period terminal and drive things COnsidering my Infromation File is dated November 1981, a PC keyboard _is_ period :-) > that way. Hitting a key on the terminal at system start should be enough > to wake things up and tell the 380Z to use the terminal as input rather > than the usual keyboard. Can't remember if there's a way of telling it Are you sure about that? I've never seen it documented anywhere. > what device to use as output, though... > I'll double check regarding tapes. I've got about half of Bletchley's Thanks. But absoutely no hurry -- this is very much a 'to do sometime' project, and it's been on the list for many years! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 3 22:20:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 04:20:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info In-Reply-To: <20050703232627.NXTE16497.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jul 3, 5 07:26:32 pm Message-ID: > Thanks - it did. I followed the "AC" through, and could see a nice waveform > coming out of the 2C driver, however from there it degraded to what I described > before at the C1 cap - on a hunch I replaced C1, and the voltage rose to about That was my first guess too... Basically there shouldn't be significant ripple here. > 7v, and the display was readable, however it was also flickering, and I could > see the voltage rising and falling by a couple of volts - I replaced C6 and > now it's rock solid, and the display is perfect. Exvellent! > > Next problem is that the microcassette drive appears to be "stuck" with the heads > and capstan forward - not really stuck, as you can push them back on their spring, > however they are not retained back as they should be - prevents inserting and > removing tapes - I haven't opened it yet, but will shortly ... is there any useful > info about the drive machanics in the service manual? I assume there must be some > kind of solinoid and latch to hold them back and release them? There's a little motor/gearbox to move the head, and I think a position detelction swtich. I will check the manual for you. The technical manual I have gives schematics for the cassette option, exploded views, dismantling instructions, etc. > > Once again: THANKS! for taking the time to "ascii art" the LCD power supply > schematic ... VERY much appreciated! I'm pleased the machine is working again. -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jul 4 00:52:42 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 01:52:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200507040558.BAA17454@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > However, the termination is something that I've been concerned with. > Howard used it with a short (~3ft) SCSI cable. I'm using it with a > longer (~6ft) cable. The tape drive has two 50-pin IDC connectors on > the back. There's a ribbon cable coming out of one of the connectors > with two amphenol connectors on the end. One amphenol connector is > terminated, and the other is connected to my SCSI cable, which is > then connected to my SCSI interface on the PC. The other 50-pin IDC > connector is just open. I mentioned to Howard that this didn't look > right but he said it always worked for him. ...on what hardware? It's not right. You might be able to get away with the exceptions for stubs to devices if the wires from the terminator to the device and the open connector are short enough, but that seems unlikely to me, especially since I think the maximum stub length for that exception is something like three inches. I would, though, suggest using an old slow host interface to drive it. A modern peecee SCSI card will probably try to run it at fairly high speeds, at which rates the transmission-line effects of the wiring botch can cause trouble; at slow data rates such as are typical of pre-sync SCSI, it may well work fine. And, yes, as whoever it was (Curt, I think?) said, terminate it, even if it means hooking up another device. Oh, and-- use an active terminator, if you can. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Jul 4 04:22:16 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 10:22:16 +0100 Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2b541d854d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Another fine example of why I can't stand eBay. Here's a fine example of why I can't stand it. On Sunday morning I added an item to my watchlist - a Microprofessor MPF-1, complete, boxed, with manuals. Supposedly perfect condition too. Also checked that it was still pointed at my Gmail address. It was. The auction was due to end at 4PM on Sunday (ie. yesterday). When did I get the "Item is ending within 5 hours" message? That's right. 5 minutes ago. Followed by an "Item has ended, YOU LOSE!" message. Fecking stupid thing. And people wonder why I hate ebay. What really pisses me off is that it's done this to me THREE TIMES this week, to three different email addresses. Bleagh. I wanted that MPF, too - it only went for ?16 - my max was way higher than that :( :( :( Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... As I said before, I never repeat myself. From James at jdfogg.com Mon Jul 4 07:05:21 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 08:05:21 -0400 Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BA7@sbs.jdfogg.com> > -----Original Message----- > Another fine example of why I can't stand eBay. It's not Ebay, it's humans. Ebay is just an excellent vehicle for the worst human traits. I can't stand humans. ---- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 4 07:37:45 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:37:45 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120480665.10023.36.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-04 at 04:13 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > There are only 2 boards. The 8" controller is the same as the > non-intellegent 5.25" one. There are notes on the schematic for the link > settings for the FDS (== 8") and MDS (== 5.25") versions. > > > Far as I know, the former board is FM only and can put about 70KB on a > > The 1771 is certainly FM (single density) only. > > > disk, whilst the latter one can do MFM and gets about 240KB on a disk. > > I've not seriously looked at those schematics yet... Not me yet... more interested in their SASI controller at this stage to be honest as I really need a way of getting the 380Z fileserver backed up! > > Actually, info on the various PAL chips would be handy; RML didn't half > > THere were no PALs in the original set of boards (CPU, VDU, hi-res, disk, > etc). WHat there were -- and were to excess -- were small bipolar PROMs. > Those were often colour-coded. That's what I'm thinking of :) I haven't seen their contents noted down anywhere. My programmer here might well handle them, I just don't want to risk toasting one out of a running machine! > > Aha, I've got a 480Z disk unit here - never tried it as I need to sit > > down and figure out the cable wiring which puts a bit of extra time on > > the task. > > It would be useful to know the protocol that the 480Z uses to talk to the > disk unit. From what I remember, though,, it uses the serial chips in > synchronous mode, which means finding another machine that could act as a > disk server would not be totally trivial. Indeed. I suppose given a dump of the ROM out of my 480Z disk unit, plus the schematics for the board, and the 480Z details it would be possible to figure it out - but somewhat time-consuming. I just pulled the lid on my disk unit and it definitely has all the right bits to be the intelligent disk controller; it's just missing all the circuitry to interface to the 380Z bus (it just has all the serial side of things present + the Z80 part of everything) > > that way. Hitting a key on the terminal at system start should be enough > > to wake things up and tell the 380Z to use the terminal as input rather > > than the usual keyboard. Can't remember if there's a way of telling it > > Are you sure about that? I've never seen it documented anywhere. It's in the COS 3.4 Information File - under misc functions (reset and initialisation): "COS checks to see if there is a VDU plugged into the SIO-4 socket. If there is, all subsequent output via the scroller output EMTs is sent to this VDU. Graphical output, such as the front panel, or low or high resolution graphics, still appear on the RML screen. If a character is received from the VDU at 9600 baud, COS also switches the keyboard EMTs to take all subsequent input from the VDU ignoring the RML keyboard." So it should work with an SIO-4 (or presumably 4C). Indeed, we've actually got some Cifer terminals doing nothing which have nice black keyboards very similar in looks to the 380Z ones... The text implies that it's not possible to have a terminal as input-only though; it'll always redirect text output if a terminal's present. How much RML software actually uses the COS routines is another matter - there must be at least some bits and pieces out there that talk to the keyboard / display directly rather than through COS, and those then wouldn't work... > > I'll double check regarding tapes. I've got about half of Bletchley's > > Thanks. But absoutely no hurry -- this is very much a 'to do sometime' > project, and it's been on the list for many years! Heh, I know what you mean! In the case of RML stuff I like to try and keep track of who has what anyway as it's reasonably uncommon stuff. cheers Jules From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Jul 4 08:18:08 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 09:18:08 -0400 Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BA7@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BA7@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <42C93710.6070306@atarimuseum.com> James, You just hit the nail on the hit. when the internet caught on, every scumbag in the universe saw a fresh new piece of territory just begging to be used, abused, manipulated and destroyed. The internet, more and more each day becomes more annoyance and less useful due to this pieces of human sh*t that seek to profit from it in the worst possible ways. Curt James Fogg wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>Another fine example of why I can't stand eBay. >> >> > >It's not Ebay, it's humans. Ebay is just an excellent vehicle for the >worst human traits. > >I can't stand humans. > >---- >There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand >binary and those who don't. > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.8/37 - Release Date: 7/1/2005 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 4 09:11:50 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 10:11:50 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <2b541d854d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:22 AM 7/4/05 +0100, Phil wrote: > >Here's a fine example of why I can't stand it. >On Sunday morning I added an item to my watchlist - a Microprofessor MPF-1, >complete, boxed, with manuals. Supposedly perfect condition too. Also checked >that it was still pointed at my Gmail address. It was. The auction was due to >end at 4PM on Sunday (ie. yesterday). > >When did I get the "Item is ending within 5 hours" message? That's right. 5 >minutes ago. Followed by an "Item has ended, YOU LOSE!" message. Fecking >stupid thing. > >And people wonder why I hate ebay. What really pisses me off is that it's >done this to me THREE TIMES this week, to three different email addresses. >Bleagh. I wanted that MPF, too - it only went for ?16 - my max was way higher >than that :( :( :( Don't take this personally BUT: Why didn't you bid your max bid the first time??????? If you had you would have won the item. What is it with all you people that want to wait till the last second to bid and then you whine when don't win. Late messages aren't necessarily E-bays fault. The InterNET is a network of servers, relays, etc and messages can be delayed for many reasons. That's one of the good things about E-bay's system, you don't have to be there or even on-line when the auction nears it's end, the system will do the bidding for you. I NEVER get outbid on things that I really want. I'm sure Al and others can tell you the same thing. You lost because you wanted to play stupid games with E-bay's system! I don't understand why some of ypeople on this list are always complaining about E-bay. Where else do you think you're going to find a complete Microprofessor MPF-1 for ?16 and never leave your desk? If you want bargains you have to go hunt for them or take the occasional one, like this one, that show up on E-bay. If you don't like E-bay's high prices then get off the computer and go start looking in the surplus stores, scrap yards, flea markets, etc etc etc. There are still PLENTY of bargains to be had. I have a LOT of great computers (3x SB-180s, 2x Rubicons, 2x Altairs, 10x Intels, 13x AIM-65s, HP-9100, 4x HP-35 Red Dots, 5x HP-1000s, PDP-8, etc etc etc etc) and NONE of them came from E-bay. I got ALL of them the hard way, by LOOKING! my 2 cents worth, Joe From jim.isbell at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 09:29:14 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 09:29:14 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <2b541d854d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: Amen and Amen. I sell a lot on E Bay (and buy also) but I have a policy that if there is no bid on my item 6 hours before closing, I pull the item. I will NOT sell it to a sniper who wants to get it for 1 cent over the minimum bid. If there is a bid on it then its a fair auction, but if you watch a real life auction the auctioneer does not say "going, going, oopes theres a bid, gone." After a lat minute bit he will open it up again for more bids. E Bay used to do that back in the beginning. If there was a late bit it automatically extended the time for 5 or 10 minutes. But they dont do that now, so I pull the item if its not getting bids. Another tactic I use is to raise the starting bid at 6 hours till end if there are no bide. This will get some of them off the pot. Now, do I snipe? Yes I do, but I dont bitch when the auction ends early or if someone outbids me or if I forget to come back to the auction and miss the ending. On 7/4/05, Joe R. wrote: > At 10:22 AM 7/4/05 +0100, Phil wrote: > > > > >Here's a fine example of why I can't stand it. > >On Sunday morning I added an item to my watchlist - a Microprofessor MPF-1, > >complete, boxed, with manuals. Supposedly perfect condition too. Also checked > >that it was still pointed at my Gmail address. It was. The auction was due to > >end at 4PM on Sunday (ie. yesterday). > > > >When did I get the "Item is ending within 5 hours" message? That's right. 5 > >minutes ago. Followed by an "Item has ended, YOU LOSE!" message. Fecking > >stupid thing. > > > >And people wonder why I hate ebay. What really pisses me off is that it's > >done this to me THREE TIMES this week, to three different email addresses. > >Bleagh. I wanted that MPF, too - it only went for ?16 - my max was way higher > >than that :( :( :( > > Don't take this personally BUT: Why didn't you bid your max bid the > first time??????? If you had you would have won the item. > > What is it with all you people that want to wait till the last second to > bid and then you whine when don't win. Late messages aren't necessarily > E-bays fault. The InterNET is a network of servers, relays, etc and > messages can be delayed for many reasons. That's one of the good things > about E-bay's system, you don't have to be there or even on-line when the > auction nears it's end, the system will do the bidding for you. I NEVER get > outbid on things that I really want. I'm sure Al and others can tell you > the same thing. You lost because you wanted to play stupid games with > E-bay's system! > > I don't understand why some of ypeople on this list are always > complaining about E-bay. Where else do you think you're going to find a > complete Microprofessor MPF-1 for ?16 and never leave your desk? If you > want bargains you have to go hunt for them or take the occasional one, like > this one, that show up on E-bay. If you don't like E-bay's high prices > then get off the computer and go start looking in the surplus stores, scrap > yards, flea markets, etc etc etc. There are still PLENTY of bargains to be > had. I have a LOT of great computers (3x SB-180s, 2x Rubicons, 2x Altairs, > 10x Intels, 13x AIM-65s, HP-9100, 4x HP-35 Red Dots, 5x HP-1000s, PDP-8, > etc etc etc etc) and NONE of them came from E-bay. I got ALL of them the > hard way, by LOOKING! > > my 2 cents worth, > Joe > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Jul 4 10:50:49 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 16:50:49 +0100 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: In message <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> "Joe R." wrote: > What is it with all you people that want to wait till the last second to > bid and then you whine when don't win. I don't wait until the last second. I place a bid about four hours before the auction ends. If it's over my max, I don't bother bidding at all. What's the problem with that?! Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... You can make it foolproof. But you can't make it damn foolproof! From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Jul 4 10:53:17 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 08:53:17 -0700 Subject: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200507040853.17442.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 04 July 2005 07:11, Joe R. wrote: > What is it with all you people that want to wait till the last second to > bid and then you whine when don't win. Late messages aren't necessarily > E-bays fault. The InterNET is a network of servers, relays, etc and > messages can be delayed for many reasons. That's one of the good things > about E-bay's system, you don't have to be there or even on-line when the > auction nears it's end, the system will do the bidding for you. I NEVER get > outbid on things that I really want. I'm sure Al and others can tell you > the same thing. You lost because you wanted to play stupid games with > E-bay's system! > > I don't understand why some of ypeople on this list are always > complaining about E-bay. Where else do you think you're going to find a > complete Microprofessor MPF-1 for ?16 and never leave your desk? If you > want bargains you have to go hunt for them or take the occasional one, like > this one, that show up on E-bay. If you don't like E-bay's high prices > then get off the computer and go start looking in the surplus stores, scrap > yards, flea markets, etc etc etc. There are still PLENTY of bargains to be > had. I have a LOT of great computers (3x SB-180s, 2x Rubicons, 2x Altairs, > 10x Intels, 13x AIM-65s, HP-9100, 4x HP-35 Red Dots, 5x HP-1000s, PDP-8, > etc etc etc etc) and NONE of them came from E-bay. I got ALL of them the > hard way, by LOOKING! > > my 2 cents worth, > Joe I'm with Joe on this. I'm a huge fan of eBay - it has enabled me to contact and purchase/sell items all over the world. It is a fair system - and certainly equal in "fairness" to any sealed bid auctions that I also participate in. It's also a mystery to me why anyone complains about not getting an Email from eBay. I never count on Emails for anything that is time sensitive. We are dealing with a huge network that does not have any SLA (Service Level Agreement) for response time or latency guarantees. There are lots of ways to "play" eBay as a buyer - and if you really want something you merely bid the maximum amount you're willing to pay for an item - and the only way anyone will beat you is by bidding more - whether by "standard" bidding or sniping. I also practice sniping in addition to "regular" bidding - because it feels more to me like a sealed bid auction - and I've worked sealed bid auctions for more years than eBay has been around! Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jim.isbell at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 11:04:32 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:04:32 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: One problem.....I have gotten so irritated by last minute bids.... when after all I paid for 7 days of bids....that I now pull any item that does NOT have a bid at 6 Hours before the end (that misses you). I will also sometimes up the ante rather than pull the item, sometimes by 5X. This is to discourage last minute bidders. This really works if you put the bidders on notice in your description that you plan on doing this. They, then, will decide wheather to "S*** or get off the pot" as we used to say at the poker table in the old days. On 7/4/05, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> > "Joe R." wrote: > > > What is it with all you people that want to wait till the last second to > > bid and then you whine when don't win. > > I don't wait until the last second. I place a bid about four hours before the > auction ends. If it's over my max, I don't bother bidding at all. > What's the problem with that?! > > Later. > -- > Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, > philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI > ... You can make it foolproof. But you can't make it damn foolproof! > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From mbbrutman at brutman.com Mon Jul 4 11:29:10 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 11:29:10 -0500 Subject: Swapping Hi density drives for low density drives In-Reply-To: <200507041607.j64G56Aq004839@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507041607.j64G56Aq004839@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42C963D6.5050700@brutman.com> Hi Grumpy :-) On the Windows 2K machine I used /F:720 to get a 720K format. On the Linux machine I used /dev/fd0D720, which should be equivalent. It was definitely a 720K format, as other parts of the copied DOS 3.3 diskette were readable. Only parts of track zero were consistently bad across the multiple diskettes, and they were not flagged as bad on the other machines. Even when formatting on the Jr (booted with the original DOS diskette and trying to format double density) the format fails. I wasn't aware of DOS 3.2 and 3.3 falsely reporting media problems when straddling a 64K boundary. I wasn't running with TSRs, but the Jr has timing problems of it's own. I don't think this was the problem though - DOS 3.3 was fine. So it still looks like a double density diskette prepared in a 1.44MB drive works fine on modern machines, but isn't quite right when the 1.44MB drive is running on an old controller. Like a timing issue. Double density diskettes cut on genuine 720K drives work fine. I'm thinking of getting a special breed of Teac 1.44MB. It has a different model number, and it has jumpers and a modification procedure published by Teac to make it a substitute for an original 720K drive. That would be an interesting experiment. From marvin at rain.org Mon Jul 4 11:32:19 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 09:32:19 -0700 Subject: E-bay complaints Message-ID: <42C96493.1C70AEA5@rain.org> What I don't understand is why most people don't take a look at the Vintage Computer Marketplace on a regular basis. I just sold an MPF-1 on VCM (http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/) for $20.00. Sure, I could have probably gotten more for it on Ebay, but why not list stuff *FIRST* on VCM with a reasonable price that sellers can live with????? And once the ad copy and photo(s) are taken, it is trivial to move the listing over to Ebay if it doesn't sell on VCM. And FWIW Ebay does not always bring the best pricing. An example would be an Altair 8800 that I needed to sell for expenses that sold for $1500 a year or so ago. Considering that I had gone through it and made sure everything worked, and the unit was in excellent condition cosmetically and had the original manual, it probably was worth closer to $2000. Ebay is the lazy way of retail selling without doing research on what something is worth. And taking advantage (in some cases) of people with more money than brains. And I couldn't agree more with Joe's comments; there is a LOT of stuff out there for anyone who takes the time to develop a network and sources. As one example, I would have never gotten the worlds largest supply of existing Polymorphic software, documentations, equipment, etc. without the network I have in place. Nor would I (in years past) have aquired some 50 coinop arcade games at no charge (most are now gone.) > I don't understand why some of ypeople on this list are always > complaining about E-bay. Where else do you think you're going to find a > complete Microprofessor MPF-1 for ?16 and never leave your desk? If you > want bargains you have to go hunt for them or take the occasional one, like > this one, that show up on E-bay. If you don't like E-bay's high prices > then get off the computer and go start looking in the surplus stores, scrap > yards, flea markets, etc etc etc. There are still PLENTY of bargains to be > had. I have a LOT of great computers (3x SB-180s, 2x Rubicons, 2x Altairs, > 10x Intels, 13x AIM-65s, HP-9100, 4x HP-35 Red Dots, 5x HP-1000s, PDP-8, > etc etc etc etc) and NONE of them came from E-bay. I got ALL of them the > hard way, by LOOKING! > > my 2 cents worth, > Joe > From melamy at earthlink.net Mon Jul 4 11:31:34 2005 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:31:34 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> if you would set the starting price to what you wanted instead of trying to save money on listing fees, then you would not have to play games. You have decided to make life more difficult for you on eBay. It is not the late bidders or eBay that has the problem. I have gone on eBay, done a new type of search, found and then bid on items that were down to their last minutes. You technique keeps people from finding the item at the last minute. At 12:04 PM 07/04/2005, you wrote: >One problem.....I have gotten so irritated by last minute bids.... >when after all I paid for 7 days of bids....that I now pull any item >that does NOT have a bid at 6 Hours before the end (that misses you). >I will also sometimes up the ante rather than pull the item, sometimes >by 5X. This is to discourage last minute bidders. This really works >if you put the bidders on notice in your description that you plan on >doing this. They, then, will decide wheather to "S*** or get off the >pot" as we used to say at the poker table in the old days. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 4 11:48:34 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:48:34 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050704124834.00a5ebf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:50 PM 7/4/05 +0100, Phil wrote: >In message <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> > "Joe R." wrote: > >> What is it with all you people that want to wait till the last second to >> bid and then you whine when don't win. > >I don't wait until the last second. I place a bid about four hours before the >auction ends. If it's over my max, I don't bother bidding at all. >What's the problem with that?! The problem is that it's too easy to forget to bid! What's the point in waiting till four hours (or four days, or four minutes or four seconds) before the end? If its not over your max then bid ANYTIME. If you bid early, *friends* will see your bid and not bid against you AND you don't have to worry about forgetting to bid. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 4 12:03:47 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:03:47 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050704130347.00a5d710@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:31 PM 7/4/05 -0400, you wrote: >if you would set the starting price to what you wanted instead of trying to >save money on listing fees, then you would not have to play games. What does the starting price have to do with people bidding at the last minute?? I don't see any connection. I always start my auctions cheap. First I don't see any reason to enrich E-bay any more than necessary but also I frequently don't know the value of an item and it's simple to start it cheap and let the market place set the price. I've used E-bay for almost ten years and I've watched the prices of certain items closely and I've frequently found tht people will not bid on items that start high even though the same item will bring more than the same high starting price when started at a lower price and allowed to escalate naturally. You have >decided to make life more difficult for you on eBay. It is not the late >bidders or eBay that has the problem. It IS the late bidding that was the problem in this case!!!! He waited too long and forgot to bid! Explain how the starting price had any bearing on that if you can. > >I have gone on eBay, done a new type of search, found and then bid on items >that were down to their last minutes. You technique keeps people from >finding the item at the last minute. You said "done a new type of search,". If you had done the same search earlier you would have found exactly the same items! Joe > >At 12:04 PM 07/04/2005, you wrote: >>One problem.....I have gotten so irritated by last minute bids.... >>when after all I paid for 7 days of bids....that I now pull any item >>that does NOT have a bid at 6 Hours before the end (that misses you). >>I will also sometimes up the ante rather than pull the item, sometimes >>by 5X. This is to discourage last minute bidders. This really works >>if you put the bidders on notice in your description that you plan on >>doing this. They, then, will decide wheather to "S*** or get off the >>pot" as we used to say at the poker table in the old days. > > > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Jul 4 12:13:06 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 18:13:06 +0100 Subject: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: <200507040853.17442.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200507040853.17442.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <7a6f48854d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <200507040853.17442.lbickley at bickleywest.com> Lyle Bickley wrote: > - and the only way anyone will beat you is by bidding more - whether by > "standard" bidding or sniping. What really - and I mean REALLY - annoys me are the prats that snipe items for some stupid price, then never pay. I've had to deal with one of them before. NPB'd him and got a wonderful email back - "You f*ing scammed me, i paid, i paid, scammer, f*er, your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberries", et cetera. Last I heard he was looking for a new ISP. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Give your child mental blocks for Christmas. From jim.isbell at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 12:25:10 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:25:10 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: The starting price does not affect the cost of the auction to the seller, its the selling price that determines the cost. So, its not a matter of saving money, its a matter of scaring off bidders. I like to keep the starting bid at $1 to encourage people to bid but when it doesnt encourage them to bid I say f*** you and pull it. No, it doent keep them from finding them at the last minute, they are just not there to find. With 7 days to look, I dont think I miss very many because they are late to the party. If you are a dollar short and 6 hours late, tough luck. Do you think a real auction house would hold the bidding while someone ran from the parking lot to try to get in a bid at the last minute? I have had items with 30 or more people "watching" them. If you have never sold items you may not know that the seller can see how many people are "watching" the item. When you have 30 people just watching for 5 days and no one bidding I have no sympathy for them when I snatch the item back. It costs me the 35 cent listing fee but thats better than spending 30 minutes packing something for some A**H*** that bid $1 with 10 seconds to go. NOW, "Do I snipe?", sure, but I sure dont bitch when it doesnt work! On 7/4/05, Steve Thatcher wrote: > if you would set the starting price to what you wanted instead of trying to > save money on listing fees, then you would not have to play games. You have > decided to make life more difficult for you on eBay. It is not the late > bidders or eBay that has the problem. > > I have gone on eBay, done a new type of search, found and then bid on items > that were down to their last minutes. You technique keeps people from > finding the item at the last minute. > > At 12:04 PM 07/04/2005, you wrote: > >One problem.....I have gotten so irritated by last minute bids.... > >when after all I paid for 7 days of bids....that I now pull any item > >that does NOT have a bid at 6 Hours before the end (that misses you). > >I will also sometimes up the ante rather than pull the item, sometimes > >by 5X. This is to discourage last minute bidders. This really works > >if you put the bidders on notice in your description that you plan on > >doing this. They, then, will decide wheather to "S*** or get off the > >pot" as we used to say at the poker table in the old days. > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From jhoger at pobox.com Mon Jul 4 12:26:44 2005 From: jhoger at pobox.com (John R. Hogerhuis) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 10:26:44 -0700 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050704124834.00a5ebf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050704124834.00a5ebf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1120498004.25189.63.camel@aragorn> On Mon, 2005-07-04 at 12:48 -0400, Joe R. wrote: > What's the point in waiting till four hours (or four days, or four > minutes or four seconds) before the end? If its not over your max then bid > ANYTIME. If you bid early, *friends* will see your bid and not bid against > you AND you don't have to worry about forgetting to bid. > > Joe > > > BOBW: make min bid early marking auction to your friends, thereby prevent pulling item, changing the ad, changing the price by seller. Then snipe bid it last 10 seconds. -- John. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Jul 4 12:23:13 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 18:23:13 +0100 Subject: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: <42C96493.1C70AEA5@rain.org> References: <42C96493.1C70AEA5@rain.org> Message-ID: In message <42C96493.1C70AEA5 at rain.org> Marvin Johnston wrote: > I just sold an MPF-1 on VCM (http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/) > for $20.00. Sure, I could have probably gotten more for it on Ebay, but > why not list stuff *FIRST* on VCM with a reasonable price that sellers > can live with????? And once the ad copy and photo(s) are taken, it is > trivial to move the listing over to Ebay if it doesn't sell on VCM. I actually saw that one first - then spotted the "SOLD" tag next to it. I would have paid that in a heartbeat... > And I couldn't agree more with Joe's comments; there is a LOT of stuff > out there for anyone who takes the time to develop a network and > sources. As one example, I would have never gotten the worlds largest > supply of existing Polymorphic software, documentations, equipment, etc. > without the network I have in place. Nor would I (in years past) have > aquired some 50 coinop arcade games at no charge (most are now gone.) I've tried looking around here - talked to friends, mentioned a few of my hobbies, and all I ended up with was 10 useless 486-class PCs. Someone literally drove a pickup truck up to the garage door while I was out and dumped the whole lot on the drive. Soaked, mangled and basically useless. Very annoying, especially when I said "if it runs DOS or Windows, I'm not interested, call me and ask first." *sigh* I did thank them for the gesture, found two working hard drives (the rest were either gone or dead) and stole the SIMMs, but the machines ended up in a skip. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Get 'em by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow. From jim.isbell at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 12:32:37 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:32:37 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <1120498004.25189.63.camel@aragorn> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050704124834.00a5ebf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1120498004.25189.63.camel@aragorn> Message-ID: On 7/4/05, John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > BOBW: make min bid early marking auction to your friends, thereby > prevent pulling item, changing the ad, changing the price by seller. > Then snipe bid it last 10 seconds. > > -- John. Yep, thats the way to do it. That would foil me completely, thats the way I do it. But as far as I am concerned, as a seller, if I get a bid early I dont cvare if it is small, it still puts everyone else on notice that someone else wants it and the bidding then will be "fair and ballanced." -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jul 4 13:00:38 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:00:38 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42C97946.2080006@mdrconsult.com> Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > The starting price does not affect the cost of the auction to the > seller, its the selling price that determines the cost. So, its not a > matter of saving money, its a matter of scaring off bidders. I like > to keep the starting bid at $1 to encourage people to bid but when it > doesnt encourage them to bid I say f*** you and pull it. And what was your eBay ID again? Doc From jim.isbell at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 13:01:52 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:01:52 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <42C97946.2080006@mdrconsult.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> <42C97946.2080006@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: Why? On 7/4/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > > The starting price does not affect the cost of the auction to the > > seller, its the selling price that determines the cost. So, its not a > > matter of saving money, its a matter of scaring off bidders. I like > > to keep the starting bid at $1 to encourage people to bid but when it > > doesnt encourage them to bid I say f*** you and pull it. > > And what was your eBay ID again? > > > Doc > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 4 13:04:44 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:04:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050704124834.00a5ebf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > What's the point in waiting till four hours (or four days, or four > minutes or four seconds) before the end? If its not over your max then bid > ANYTIME. If you bid early, *friends* will see your bid and not bid against > you AND you don't have to worry about forgetting to bid. Don't worry about friends, worry about the competition. Yes, I check the bids of the competition, to see what they found and I missed. I think I have some pretty good, well refined searches on Ebay, but I am always spotting things the searches missed that the competition did not. By sniping, I can somewhat reduce my chances of having the competition do the same to me. I have snuck thru a few awesome deals for things on Ebay, perhaps due to not being spotted by others. Yes, competition - the collecting world has always had it. Always will. Live with it, it is part of the game. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From news at computercollector.com Mon Jul 4 13:13:08 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:13:08 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507041818.j64IIvcL052728@keith.ezwind.net> There are certainly some big problems with eBay's system. But overall, I agree with the prior posting (I forget whose) noting that no place else can we find so much stuff without leaving our desks. That is one heck of a good deal. There are several hundred to maybe a thousand of us here on classiccmp. There could easily be twice or ten times as many collectors who have no idea classiccmp, vcf, etc. exist. I'd bet there are also thousands of people who just desire one particular item for some particular reason (technical, sentiment, etc.), and they just go on eBay, get that item, and then walk away. Those people aren't any less human - or less collector - than the rest of us. Now, eventually, those people will Google for some help on their new vintage machine. When they do, they'll promptly find our resources, like classiccmp, vcf, old-computers.com, and countless machine-specific sites. So while it's absolutely true that some big parts of eBay do suck, I'd argue that some parts of ALL large systems suck, but that we just happen to be a group affected by these parts rather acutely. And I'd argue that eBay probably brings just as many new collectors into our hobby and to our preferred resources, than it could turn away. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jul 4 13:04:04 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:04:04 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: <200507040853.17442.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200507040853.17442.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050704130313.05544928@mail> At 10:53 AM 7/4/2005, Lyle Bickley wrote: >I also practice sniping in addition to "regular" bidding - because it feels >more to me like a sealed bid auction - and I've worked sealed bid auctions >for more years than eBay has been around! I'd appreciate some pointers on auction technique for sealed bids. eBay theory has been worked to death here. - John From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 4 13:17:17 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:17:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <200507041818.j64IIvcL052728@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > I'd bet there are also thousands of people who > just desire one particular item for some particular reason (technical, > sentiment, etc.), and they just go on eBay, get that item, and then walk > away. Those people aren't any less human - or less collector - than the > rest of us. There is also the "cross collecting" effect, well known in the antiques business. An item may "fall into" two or more completely unrelated classes equally well. For example, the Hello Kitty laptop would appeal to vintage computer collectors AND Hello Kitty collectors equally. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jul 4 13:20:56 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 13:20:56 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> <42C97946.2080006@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <42C97E08.50404@mdrconsult.com> Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > Why? I typically have 15-20 watched items on my list. I *might* buy 2 items a month, so you can see that I don't bid on everything that I track. I very often have 2 or 3 items that end within a few hours, and either can use or can afford only one of them. Duplicate items, short toy budget, whatever. In those cases, I *can't* enter a bid till I know I want that particular item, and that's often in the last 20 minutes of the auction. I asked about your ID primarily because in the above scenario, your items wouldn't be worth watching. Partly out of pure curiosity. Sniping *can* benefit the buyer, price-wise. However, your assumption that late bids are always about the money just doesn't hold water. Doc > On 7/4/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > >>Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: >> >> >>>The starting price does not affect the cost of the auction to the >>>seller, its the selling price that determines the cost. So, its not a >>>matter of saving money, its a matter of scaring off bidders. I like >>>to keep the starting bid at $1 to encourage people to bid but when it >>>doesnt encourage them to bid I say f*** you and pull it. >> >> And what was your eBay ID again? From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Jul 4 13:20:07 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:20:07 +0100 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c580c5$0309be50$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >The starting price does not affect the cost of the auction >to the seller, its the selling price that determines the cost. On ebay.co.uk the listing fee *does* depend on the starting price. IIRC ?0.99 and below is ?0.15, ?1-?4.99 is ?0.20 etc. >If you have never sold items you may not know that the seller >can see how many people are "watching" the item. Although not who is watching .... I add anything interesting that I come across to my watch list. It might be because I wish to bid, it might be because I'm interested in seeing what it goes for, it might be because I need this particular type of widget and I find the watch list a convenient way to keep track of multiple items before deciding which one to bid on (and which one to bid on next if I lose ...). If I'm really going to bid, I'll probably line something up in a bidding tool and just "let it ride" without ever bothering to "watch" the item. Antonio From jim.isbell at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 13:32:08 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:32:08 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <200507041818.j64IIvcL052728@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507041818.j64IIvcL052728@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Well, as a collector I am not happy that everyone knows what something is worth. Cummon, who among us would not buy omething below market if we could? And E Bay has done a lot to teach the world the value of items that were once thought to be trash. This causes my collecting costs to go up. I dont like that. BUT.................... As a seller, I like having a huge market to sell to intead of just the local market (Which is tinny here in south Texas where they think Hi Tech is refering to the Model T automobile) I also like a market that is educated in the value of my items so I dont have to convince them. Thee two views are conflicting, but as both a buyer and a seller I have to ballance both views, and I think in the long run, because of the exposure , E-Bay helps both. I have some issues with them, such a their ban on Nazi paraphenalia, which I could understand if it was just "modern" or Just reproductions they were against, but something like a genuine item from the Third Reich, is a true collectable even if you dont agree with the politics. Yet they ban them based on the philosophy. Why not ban Christian paraphenalia baed on philosophy...etc. etc., who is next??? On 7/4/05, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > There are certainly some big problems with eBay's system. > > But overall, I agree with the prior posting (I forget whose) noting that no > place else can we find so much stuff without leaving our desks. That is one > heck of a good deal. > > There are several hundred to maybe a thousand of us here on classiccmp. > There could easily be twice or ten times as many collectors who have no idea > classiccmp, vcf, etc. exist. I'd bet there are also thousands of people who > just desire one particular item for some particular reason (technical, > sentiment, etc.), and they just go on eBay, get that item, and then walk > away. Those people aren't any less human - or less collector - than the > rest of us. > > Now, eventually, those people will Google for some help on their new vintage > machine. When they do, they'll promptly find our resources, like > classiccmp, vcf, old-computers.com, and countless machine-specific sites. > > So while it's absolutely true that some big parts of eBay do suck, I'd argue > that some parts of ALL large systems suck, but that we just happen to be a > group affected by these parts rather acutely. And I'd argue that eBay > probably brings just as many new collectors into our hobby and to our > preferred resources, than it could turn away. > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 4 13:36:20 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 18:36:20 +0000 Subject: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: References: <42C96493.1C70AEA5@rain.org> Message-ID: <1120502180.10023.68.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-04 at 18:23 +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message <42C96493.1C70AEA5 at rain.org> > Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > I just sold an MPF-1 on VCM (http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/) > > for $20.00. Sure, I could have probably gotten more for it on Ebay, but > > why not list stuff *FIRST* on VCM with a reasonable price that sellers > > can live with????? And once the ad copy and photo(s) are taken, it is > > trivial to move the listing over to Ebay if it doesn't sell on VCM. > > I actually saw that one first - then spotted the "SOLD" tag next to it. I > would have paid that in a heartbeat... > > > And I couldn't agree more with Joe's comments; there is a LOT of stuff > > out there for anyone who takes the time to develop a network and > > sources. As one example, I would have never gotten the worlds largest > > supply of existing Polymorphic software, documentations, equipment, etc. > > without the network I have in place. Nor would I (in years past) have > > aquired some 50 coinop arcade games at no charge (most are now gone.) > > I've tried looking around here - talked to friends, mentioned a few of my > hobbies, and all I ended up with was 10 useless 486-class PCs. Most of the stuff I get (albeit for the museum, not personally) comes from local usenet groups, or the university - it's at the stage now where the local population seem to know to chuck things this way. I've only recently joined the local freecycle group, so I'm not sure how good that'll be in terms of stuff yet. Landfill / scrapyards in the UK don't seem to be anything like their US counterparts according to what I've seen on this list - there just aren't items there for the taking. I suspect a *lot* of smaller machines are tucked away in lofts, but the big stuff's reasonably hard to come by over here - although we'll usually get offered one 19" rack-sized machine a month on average, sometimes from companies and sometimes from collectors (or former collectors) who want the space back. There is stuff out there anyway - you just need to give people a prod every once in a while and get yourself noticed as someone who can give this stuff a home. cheers Jules From jim.isbell at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 13:43:54 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:43:54 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <42C97E08.50404@mdrconsult.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> <42C97946.2080006@mdrconsult.com> <42C97E08.50404@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: As I said, loosing one bid out of millions is not my worry. I might just as likely lose a bid because someone was looking 10 minutes BEFORE I got it listed. But I cant worry over that one either!!!! Its just a matter of sliding the window one way or the other. I wont spend my time trying to satisfy one bidder in millions. As to how you would recognise my auction, a I said earlier, I tell you up front that I will do that. Its no surprise. If you see my ad you will be able to bid on it and you will see that I plan on changing it if no one bids. Also, if you dont know enough to know you are interested to the extent of the value of a minimum bid of $1, then I surely dont think you will change your mind 20 minutes before the auction ends. So I wont miss you. Go ahead and bit $1 and if you end up with it you rot a bargain...or at least if you dont want the item you can send me the $1 and I wont ship it to save you the shipping cost. In a real auction you would have to register, give a credit card number or deposit check and get a number before you were allowed to place the first bid!!! And if you were running in from the parking lot they would not hold things while you put up the deposit or credit card. Please tell me how sniping helps the seller????? On 7/4/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > > Why? > > I typically have 15-20 watched items on my list. I *might* buy 2 > items a month, so you can see that I don't bid on everything that I > track. I very often have 2 or 3 items that end within a few hours, and > either can use or can afford only one of them. Duplicate items, short > toy budget, whatever. In those cases, I *can't* enter a bid till I know > I want that particular item, and that's often in the last 20 minutes of > the auction. > > I asked about your ID primarily because in the above scenario, your > items wouldn't be worth watching. Partly out of pure curiosity. > > Sniping *can* benefit the buyer, price-wise. However, your > assumption that late bids are always about the money just doesn't hold > water. > > > Doc > > > On 7/4/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > >>Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > >> > >> > >>>The starting price does not affect the cost of the auction to the > >>>seller, its the selling price that determines the cost. So, its not a > >>>matter of saving money, its a matter of scaring off bidders. I like > >>>to keep the starting bid at $1 to encourage people to bid but when it > >>>doesnt encourage them to bid I say f*** you and pull it. > >> > >> And what was your eBay ID again? > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 4 13:49:09 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 12:49:09 -0600 Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BA7@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <42C984A5.1080507@jetnet.ab.ca> James Fogg wrote: > ---- > There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand > binary and those who don't. You forgot unary??? 11 :) From redodd at comcast.net Mon Jul 4 14:04:23 2005 From: redodd at comcast.net (Ralph E. Dodd) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:04:23 -0400 Subject: TRS80 Model 1, monitor, expansion interface, 2 Percom drives, & system desk avail in N.J. Message-ID: <011f01c580cb$37d48c40$6401a8c0@mainpc> Hello, I have obtained a TRS80 Model 1 setup that needs some work. The computer has video problems and a broken 24pin cable that connects from the component side of the mobo to the little board that sits under the numeric keypad. I broke 2 pins off the connector when I reseated all the chips & connectors. This is a well used system with the plastic case showing lots of wear around the keyboard. I didn't do anything with the expansion interface. The 2 drives are single sided because I can see pressure pads. The Tandy system desk is in nice shape. It is located in Fairfield, N.J. Also included are some cassettes, original TRSDOS 2.1-2.3 manual (poor shape) & 2.3 disk, copy of NewDos80 manual, copies of Visicalc dics & disk, copies of terminal control program & electric pencil docs, original NewDos+ docs in good shape, original DosPlus 3.4D manual & disk, and many TRS80 Monthly Magazines. A lot of the documentation is wavy from moisture and the disks are similar. If anyone is interested in restoring this system, "Lets make a deal". Thanks a lot. Ralph From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Jul 4 14:19:37 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:19:37 -0700 Subject: any NeWS software still around? In-Reply-To: <200507041607.j64G56As004839@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507041607.j64G56As004839@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <538992fb7389bea4fd2367d859104301@valleyimplants.com> I've been doing some poking around to find software that runs on the NeWS window system, without much luck (most of what I found was confined to Sun demo binaries) Does anyone know of any archives of NeWS sources? I heard reference to something called GreatNeWS/HyperNeWS but wasn't able to find it either. I know NeWS is somewhat out of favor, but it would be nice to have my IRIS do something other than text-mode apps on 4Sight. Scott Quinn From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jul 4 15:07:21 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 16:07:21 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> <42C97946.2080006@mdrconsult.com> <42C97E08.50404@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <009601c580d3$fdeeaf20$5b7da418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 2:43 PM Subject: Re: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" > As I said, loosing one bid out of millions is not my worry. I might > just as likely lose a bid because someone was looking 10 minutes > BEFORE I got it listed. But I cant worry over that one either!!!! > Its just a matter of sliding the window one way or the other. I wont > spend my time trying to satisfy one bidder in millions. > > As to how you would recognise my auction, a I said earlier, I tell you > up front that I will do that. Its no surprise. If you see my ad you > will be able to bid on it and you will see that I plan on changing it > if no one bids. > > Also, if you dont know enough to know you are interested to the extent > of the value of a minimum bid of $1, then I surely dont think you > will change your mind 20 minutes before the auction ends. So I wont > miss you. Go ahead and bit $1 and if you end up with it you rot a > bargain...or at least if you dont want the item you can send me the $1 > and I wont ship it to save you the shipping cost. > > In a real auction you would have to register, give a credit card > number or deposit check and get a number before you were allowed to > place the first bid!!! And if you were running in from the parking > lot they would not hold things while you put up the deposit or credit > card. > > Please tell me how sniping helps the seller????? > > On 7/4/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > > Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > > > > Why? > > > > I typically have 15-20 watched items on my list. I *might* buy 2 > > items a month, so you can see that I don't bid on everything that I > > track. I very often have 2 or 3 items that end within a few hours, and > > either can use or can afford only one of them. Duplicate items, short > > toy budget, whatever. In those cases, I *can't* enter a bid till I know > > I want that particular item, and that's often in the last 20 minutes of > > the auction. > > > > I asked about your ID primarily because in the above scenario, your > > items wouldn't be worth watching. Partly out of pure curiosity. > > > > Sniping *can* benefit the buyer, price-wise. However, your > > assumption that late bids are always about the money just doesn't hold > > water. > > > > > > Doc > > > > > On 7/4/05, Doc Shipley wrote: > > > > > >>Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>>The starting price does not affect the cost of the auction to the > > >>>seller, its the selling price that determines the cost. So, its not a > > >>>matter of saving money, its a matter of scaring off bidders. I like > > >>>to keep the starting bid at $1 to encourage people to bid but when it > > >>>doesnt encourage them to bid I say f*** you and pull it. > > >> > > >> And what was your eBay ID again? > > > > > > > > > -- > Jim Isbell Some of you people crack me up with the ebay games you play. I track quite a few auctions that I may or may not bid on, it is called research. You have to technically know about the item you bid on so that if the item is misrepresented or incomplete you know about it. It is also nice to have some kind of background as to what that particular item goes for on average. Sometimes I bid early and sometimes I wait for the last 5 minutes depending on the popularity of the item and on what else I am bidding on. There is no point putting an early minimum bid of lets say $1 on an item you know will go for $200. To be honest early bidding is stupid just for the fact that shills like jacking the price up to see what your maximum bid is (and if don't get into a bidding war they just relist the same item again). The people selling bulk items have a good strategy, they have reasonable buy it now pricing and people snap those up as needed. Anyway for the sellers who think they have something rare, there are very few items that will not pop up again every 5-6 months (hell could be the same item for all I know). I spend what an item is worth to ME, I could care less what the seller thinks it is worth. If an item goes for the minimum bid (I have won quite a few that way) I expect the seller to ship it. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Jul 4 15:25:02 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 16:25:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <200507041818.j64IIvcL052728@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507041818.j64IIvcL052728@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > So while it's absolutely true that some big parts of eBay do suck, I'd argue > that some parts of ALL large systems suck, but that we just happen to be a > group affected by these parts rather acutely. And I'd argue that eBay > probably brings just as many new collectors into our hobby and to our > preferred resources, than it could turn away. I live in a relatively isolated area of Pennsylvania, smack dab in the center of the state, equally inconvenient from everywhere else. There are no major computer recyclers in the area, no high tech junkyards, and relatively few big businesses that might be getting rid of "big iron". The only resources available to me as a (amateur) collector are mailing lists such as this, Freecycle and MARCH, and the surplus and salvage center at the university. And Ebay, of course. I have picked up a couple of 8-bit systems on Ebay, by biding my time and waiting for the right system/price to come along. I don't get crazy with my maximum bid and if it goes over, something else will come along. The prices are going up, though. Big iron fascinates me, particularly the control and maintenance panels from the old systems. It used to be that you'd see these panels going on Ebay for what I consider to be reasonable prices, considering that I have no other access to such items. These days, the prices are completely out of the ballpark for my price cap, primarily due to one or two buyers who seem to have unlimited budgets for such things, and who buy everything in sight. Yes, there's a lot we can complain about Ebay, but for people in the sticks (like me), it's one of the few resources available. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From jim.isbell at gmail.com Mon Jul 4 15:39:21 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:39:21 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <009601c580d3$fdeeaf20$5b7da418@game> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> <42C97946.2080006@mdrconsult.com> <42C97E08.50404@mdrconsult.com> <009601c580d3$fdeeaf20$5b7da418@game> Message-ID: Sometimes it really cracks me up that people dont read what is written...I assume that is the case since I give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they are intelegent and can understand it if they had read it. On 7/4/05, Teo Zenios wrote: > If an item goes for the minimum bid (I have won quite a > few that way) I expect the seller to ship it. You completely missed the point!! I said, that you could bid the nimimum bid of $1 (to insure that the item would not be withdrawn) and if you got it it was a bargain. BUT...if you got a 3 ton albatros and decided it wasnt a bargain becaue of the shipping cost, then you could send the seller a $1 bill and say, "Dont ship it" and you are only out a buck. If you dont think you want it worth a buck, please dont bug me with your bids or complaints when I withdraw the item. I have never listed anything worth less than a buck...and never will. -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From david_comley at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 15:41:08 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:41:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <009601c580d3$fdeeaf20$5b7da418@game> Message-ID: <20050704204108.86490.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Teo Zenios wrote: > I spend what an item is worth to ME, I could care > less what the seller > thinks it is worth. If an item goes for the minimum > bid (I have won quite a > few that way) I expect the seller to ship it. > > Agreed. To avoid disappointment I have two basic rules for ebay purchases: i) I bid what I am willing to pay. If the bidding exceeds that value, then I walk away. I gave up sniping a long time ago. Complete waste of rations and frequently disappoints. ii) I never bid on anything that has 'Rare', 'Ultra rare', 'GOLD' or exclamation marks in the title. Who gives a monkey's if something has gold in it ? I'm going to plug the thing in and run it, not wear it round my neck. Anything else falls under the general rule of caveat emptor. I have an obligation as a buyer to adequately research anything I bid on before I start the process. Dave __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 4 16:33:27 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:33:27 -0700 Subject: LGP-30 Message-ID: John Bohner got it.. I know he's a big fan of the G-15 and friends. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5784697941 I'll have to put the pics up for it, it was REALLY nice, full docs, and software. Hopefully I can get copies from John at some point. From cannings at earthlink.net Mon Jul 4 16:39:29 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:39:29 -0700 Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BA7@sbs.jdfogg.com> <42C984A5.1080507@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <000901c580e0$dba1f0a0$6401a8c0@hal9000> And you must not forget "urinary" which is people who like to "piss" and moan ... regards, Steven C > James Fogg wrote: > > > ---- > > There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand > > binary and those who don't. > > You forgot unary??? > 11 > :) > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 4 16:38:52 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Swapping Hi density drives for low density drives In-Reply-To: <42C963D6.5050700@brutman.com> References: <200507041607.j64G56Aq004839@dewey.classiccmp.org> <42C963D6.5050700@brutman.com> Message-ID: <20050704140954.Y64497@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Hi Grumpy :-) > On the Windows 2K machine I used /F:720 to get a 720K format. Good On XP, you'll have to switch to /T:80/N:9 (incomplete support of /F: ) Also, of course, be sure to include /U in your FORMAT command line, or it will leave existing [wrong?] format on the disk. For the Jr to properly recognize/handle 720K, you'll need to include DEVICE = DRIVER.SYS /F:2 in CONFIG.SYS when booting the Jr.. On machines with NON-IBM BIOS, you can usually get away with DRIVPARM instead. > I wasn't aware of DOS 3.2 and 3.3 falsely reporting media problems when > straddling a 64K boundary. I wasn't running with TSRs, but the Jr has > timing problems of it's own. I don't think this was the problem though > - DOS 3.3 was fine. FORMAT doesn't properly handle errcode 9 from Int13h. Although DMA can not straddle a 64K boundary, FORMAT makes no effort to check/move the buffer. (As Tony says, "They did WHAT??") If you are getting "bad media" messages CONSISTENTLY from FORMAT, load or remove a TSR or a device driver, to move the buffer. > So it still looks like a double density diskette prepared in a 1.44MB > drive works fine on modern machines, but isn't quite right when the > 1.44MB drive is running on an old controller. Like a timing issue. > Double density diskettes cut on genuine 720K drives work fine. Are you bulk erasing the diskettes? FORMAT often fails to wipe out all residual formatting, particularly on track 0. HOWZBOUT: If you FORMAT on a real 720K drive, does read/write work OK? > I'm thinking of getting a special breed of Teac 1.44MB. It has a > different model number, and it has jumpers and a modification procedure > published by Teac to make it a substitute for an original 720K drive. > That would be an interesting experiment. Aren't there any 720K drives around? The Jr works very nicely with SA465, Teac55F, etc. drives to give 5.25" 720K (like the JX model!) using DOS 3.20, 3.3x, or SOME OEM versions of MS-DOS 2.11. If you are using the original godawful Qume 142 drives, then you may need to mess with Int1Eh, or run DOS 2.10. (Those POS drives have timing problems - they take so long to step that most OS's will time-out waiting for them) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Mon Jul 4 16:40:13 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:40:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050704214013.93656.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" wrote: > Amen and Amen. > > I sell a lot on E Bay (and buy also) but I have a > policy that if there > is no bid on my item 6 hours before closing, I pull > the item. I will > NOT sell it to a sniper who wants to get it for 1 > cent over the > minimum bid. If there is a bid on it then its a > fair auction, but if > you watch a real life auction the auctioneer does > not say "going, > going, oopes theres a bid, gone." After a lat > minute bit he will > open it up again for more bids. E Bay used to do > that back in the > beginning. If there was a late bit it automatically > extended the time > for 5 or 10 minutes. But they dont do that now, so > I pull the item if > its not getting bids. Another tactic I use is to > raise the starting > bid at 6 hours till end if there are no bide. This > will get some of > them off the pot. > Wow, that's quite a bizarre policy, you seem to be jumping through hoops with no obvious gain, but to each his own I guess. The ebay auction system, for all practical purposes, is like a sealed bid auction. In this type of auction bidders view the auction item for, say a week, and then submit a written sealed bid which is opened at the end of the auction. For an ebay auction, a sealed bid auction is effectively created when everyone snipes at the last second (with no time left to rebid). More specifically an ebay auction is like a Vickrey auction, where the winning bidder pays the seconds highest bid(that is a second-price sealed-bid auction). So it seems you are trying to alter ebay auction system into a traditional open auction, fine, but studies have shown that the final auction price is about the same in either type of auction, that is, you are doing alot of work for nothing, other then satisfying some perceived emotional gain, which I guess maybe is something. I think if look at an ebay auction as a vickrey auction, and just accept it as it is, you won't feel cheated that no one is bidding on your auctions till the last minute. Then you can save yourself a tremendous amount of grief and time by not altering the ending of your auctions. __________________________________ Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/stayintouch.html From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 4 16:37:17 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 17:37:17 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050704173717.00a78100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Wow! Somebody really wanted that one! <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <008001c580e6$09a3f2a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I see this thread, I see it has many answers, perhaps this one, but, at this point I am surprised that there was such a response. Please don't discuss eBay problems on this list. The archive space for this topic has long ago been exceeded. Thank You. John A. From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 4 17:30:47 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:30:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050704173717.00a78100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > Wow! Somebody really wanted that one! I, for one, am not shocked by this high number. I would have been if the number was less than $10K. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 4 17:32:12 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 18:32:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > There are > no major computer recyclers in the area, no high tech junkyards Look harder. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 4 17:32:59 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:32:59 -0700 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 Message-ID: <969721fe3533b381eebbdf3a5c13647f@bitsavers.org> > Wow! Somebody really wanted that one! Straight 8 CPUs go for over 5K, so a clean complete system with TC01/TU55's and DF32's in original mid 60's cabinets is about right at 10-15k. I assume Bill is going to prep/ship it himself (making sure to REMOVE the glass front panel and packing it separately) So... is he going to sell the OTHER Straight 8 CPU that he has now? :-) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 4 18:19:08 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 17:19:08 -0600 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" References: <20050704204108.86490.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42C9C3EC.1050107@jetnet.ab.ca> David Comley wrote: > ii) I never bid on anything that has 'Rare', 'Ultra > rare', 'GOLD' or exclamation marks in the title. Who > gives a monkey's if something has gold in it ? I'm > going to plug the thing in and run it, not wear it > round my neck. And gold is cheap compared to the price they sell stuff on ebay. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Jul 4 18:44:42 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 00:44:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <42C9C3EC.1050107@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20050704204108.86490.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <42C9C3EC.1050107@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2241.82.152.112.73.1120520682.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > And gold is cheap compared to the price they sell > stuff on ebay. http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/museum-wow.php - this page has been in existence ever since I wrote it :) 2000 or 2001 or thereabouts. It's as true now as it was then, though it's a bit UK-centric. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jul 4 19:09:31 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:09:31 -0500 Subject: Old Bond Movie with Apple IIc Message-ID: <013001c580f5$d4f18cb0$1d406b43@66067007> Just watching A View to Kill (Roger Moore as Bond) on SPIKE Cable TV and in the bedroom scene were they talk about the earthquakes the female actress goes to her dresser to check the computer. It's a Apple IIc with a green IIc monitor and shows graphics of the oil field were the quakes are happing. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jul 4 19:27:44 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 20:27:44 -0400 Subject: Free 8" floppy drives, Washington DC area Message-ID: <42C9D400.nailIRJ1YCK3B@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> I've still got many 8" floppy drives available for free right outside Washington DC. Will not ship, you must pick up. Some full-height, some half-height, some in desktop enclosures with power supplies and some in rack mount enclosures with power supplies. If interested, drop me an e-mail at my non-list address, shoppa at trailing-edge.com. Also some misc ST506-type (MFM) hard drives, and an 8" hard drive with 50pin+20 pin interface (ST??? can't remember) in an enclosure with power supply. I think that 8" hard drive worked with a Compupro Disk2 controller when I last tried it (like a decade ago) but I no longer have the Disk2. Tim. From cb at mythtech.net Mon Jul 4 19:35:44 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 20:35:44 -0400 Subject: Old Bond Movie with Apple IIc Message-ID: >Just watching A View to Kill (Roger Moore as Bond) on SPIKE Cable TV and in >the bedroom scene were they talk about the earthquakes the female actress >goes to her dresser to check the computer. It's a Apple IIc with a green >IIc monitor and shows graphics of the oil field were the quakes are happing. Wow, what a sad bunch we are when we stare at the computers and not Tanya Roberts. (yes, I noticed it was an Apple as well) -chris From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 4 18:45:05 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 00:45:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jul 4, 5 04:20:16 am Message-ID: > > Next problem is that the microcassette drive appears to be "stuck" with the heads > > and capstan forward - not really stuck, as you can push them back on their spring, > > however they are not retained back as they should be - prevents inserting and > > removing tapes - I haven't opened it yet, but will shortly ... is there any useful > > info about the drive machanics in the service manual? I assume there must be some > > kind of solinoid and latch to hold them back and release them? > > There's a little motor/gearbox to move the head, and I think a position > detelction swtich. I will check the manual for you. The technical manual > I have gives schematics for the cassette option, exploded views, > dismantling instructions, etc. HEre's a little information on how this works. The cassette drive interface is not too simple, with several signals doing multiple jobs (!). But anyway... There's an 8 bit shift register, IC2 (4015) on the cassette drive PCB. It takes clock and data from P44 and P43 of the slave CPU respectively. Bit 5 ((pin 12) and pint 6 (pin 11) of this shift register are the run and brake lines for the HP motor (HP = Head/Pinch = the motor that moves the head bracket). Bit 5 drives Q11 (2SC2532) which then drives Q6 (2SA1204). This applies voltage to thye HP motor. Bit 6 drives Q12 (2SC2532) which short-circuits the HP motor to brake it. But there's a bit more. The power to the mechanical side of the tape drive is regulated by Q3, Q14, ZD1 and associated components. The input to this is controlled by Q2, which is driven by Q8, which in turn is driven by P42 of the slave CPU. The idea is that a command is clocked into the shift register, then the power is turned on and the motors run, etc. To detect whether the head is loaded or not, there's a leaf switch called HSW. One side goes to chassis, the other is pulled up to VL by R38. It then goes into a 4066 chip, IC3, which is used as a dual 2-input multiplexer controlled by the same line that's used to clock the command shift register. Q17 acts as an inverter, 2 of the switches in IC3 are controlled by the clock line, the other 2 by the inverted clock line in the obvious way. Anyway, the head position switch is multiplexed with the tape counter optoswtich signal, and goes to P46 on the slave CPU. Now back to the mechanical side of things. The first problem is getting inside. The bottom cover of the cassette unit comes off with the obvious screws. The manual then says to peel off the trim on the cassette 'pocket', undo the 3 screws holding the chassis to the case and take the mechanism/PCB out. I seem to rememebr it's possible to get it out without removing said trim, but that it's a right fiddle!. Th manual also says that to remove the PCB you unsolder all the wires, take out the screws, and take off the PCB. Again, I seem to remember you have to desolder at least the write-protect switch, this is a leaf contact on the chassis, the tab of which is soldered into a hole on the PCB without a wire if you see what I mean. But you can leave the other wires connected. The HSW (HP switch) is fixed on top of the HP motor bracket with one small screw. This is the cylindrical motor at the front of the unit, not the flat motor at the back with the belt drive to the capstan flywheel. When refitting it, the manaul gives the adjustment as : Whit the switch removed from the HP motor : a) The moving contact (nearest the mounting hole) should be at right angles to the plastic block where the terminals go through. b) The gap between the the 2 contacts should be 0.35 +/- 0.1 (mm?) Then fit the swtich and c) The moving contact should be on the surface of the cam (cam positioned so it is on the low point od the cam) d) The plastci block on the fixed contact must be in contact with the boss on the HP motor bracket. With the swtich remobed, the HP motor assembly comes out with 2 more screws, one on top, the other underneath. Be careful when removing this not to disturb the 'P lever' (the lever that actually carries the head, etc). Your problem could be electronic or mechanical. I would start by disconnecting the HP motor wires and running the motor from a 3V battery. See if the head moves backwards and forwards correctly. And see that the HSW contacts are closing as they should do. Then we can go into troubleshoorting the electronics. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 4 18:48:36 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 00:48:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reading 9-track tapes in Linux In-Reply-To: <200507040558.BAA17454@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jul 4, 5 01:52:42 am Message-ID: > It's not right. You might be able to get away with the exceptions for > stubs to devices if the wires from the terminator to the device and the > open connector are short enough, but that seems unlikely to me, > especially since I think the maximum stub length for that exception is > something like three inches. As a general point you should never try to 'get away with things' like this. This applies IMHO to all areas of hardware -- if you do things like this they will come back to 'bite' you when you least want problems. I would put everything right (e.g. not have stubs on a SCSI bus) and then try to sort out remaining problems, knowing that they're genuine problems, not caused by misuse of hardware. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 4 18:56:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 00:56:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <2b541d854d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jul 4, 5 10:22:16 am Message-ID: > Bleagh. I wanted that MPF, too - it only went for =A316 - my max was way = > higher > than that :( :( :( YEs, but you don't know how high the winning bidder was prepared to go either. He might have gone way higher than you were prepared to pay. I remember once at a physical auction I picked up some bit of hardware for the opening bid of \pounds 1.00. Mentioning this to a friend who came in later, he said that he would have outbid me on that. I then pointed out that I would have gone to something like \pounds 100 if necessary.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jul 4 19:09:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 01:09:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120480665.10023.36.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 4, 5 12:37:45 pm Message-ID: > Not me yet... more interested in their SASI controller at this stage to > be honest as I really need a way of getting the 380Z fileserver backed > up! What about hacking around with the Acorn SASI controller, e.g. the one in your ACW? I assume you have schematics, etc for that. > > > > Actually, info on the various PAL chips would be handy; RML didn't half > > > > THere were no PALs in the original set of boards (CPU, VDU, hi-res, disk, > > etc). WHat there were -- and were to excess -- were small bipolar PROMs. > > Those were often colour-coded. > > That's what I'm thinking of :) I haven't seen their contents noted down > anywhere. My programmer here might well handle them, I just don't want > to risk toasting one out of a running machine! I'll send you a uuencoded tar.gz file of the ones in my machine (CPU, RAM expansion, 40 column video, hi-res). May be a start. > "COS checks to see if there is a VDU plugged into the SIO-4 socket. If What does it look for? One of the handshake lines being asseted? > there is, all subsequent output via the scroller output EMTs is sent to > this VDU. Graphical output, such as the front panel, or low or high > resolution graphics, still appear on the RML screen. If a character is Argh!. While twin monitor setups are useful in some cases, this sounds like something of a kludge. > received from the VDU at 9600 baud, COS also switches the keyboard EMTs > to take all subsequent input from the VDU ignoring the RML keyboard." > > So it should work with an SIO-4 (or presumably 4C). Indeed, we've > actually got some Cifer terminals doing nothing which have nice black > keyboards very similar in looks to the 380Z ones... > > The text implies that it's not possible to have a terminal as input-only > though; it'll always redirect text output if a terminal's present. How > much RML software actually uses the COS routines is another matter - The EMTs (one of the Z80 RSTs followed by a function code byte) are certainly used in the CP/M CBIOS. I suspect a lot of software uses them. > there must be at least some bits and pieces out there that talk to the > keyboard / display directly rather than through COS, and those then > wouldn't work... Anything doing graphics, for a start... Personally, I'd try to use the RML's video card for everything, which means kludging up a keyboard. It can't be that hard, the interface is as simple as it gets. > Heh, I know what you mean! In the case of RML stuff I like to try and > keep track of who has what anyway as it's reasonably uncommon stuff. By my standards they're fairly common.... -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 4 19:48:20 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 20:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <42C9C3EC.1050107@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > And gold is cheap compared to the price they sell > stuff on ebay. Actually not...I have been tracking how scrap does on Ebay, and it does not do well. Perhaps the market needs to evolve a bit more. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From rcini at optonline.net Mon Jul 4 20:09:18 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 21:09:18 -0400 Subject: Old Bond Movie with Apple IIc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00c401c580fe$2b7c1d90$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> That was an absolutely great movie. Roger Moore's last I think. Also a decent computer game (from Mindscape...I played it on the Mac). Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of chris Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 8:36 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Old Bond Movie with Apple IIc >Just watching A View to Kill (Roger Moore as Bond) on SPIKE Cable TV >and in >the bedroom scene were they talk about the earthquakes the female actress >goes to her dresser to check the computer. It's a Apple IIc with a green >IIc monitor and shows graphics of the oil field were the quakes are happing. Wow, what a sad bunch we are when we stare at the computers and not Tanya Roberts. (yes, I noticed it was an Apple as well) -chris From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 4 20:19:54 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 01:19:54 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120526394.10917.18.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 01:09 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Not me yet... more interested in their SASI controller at this stage to > > be honest as I really need a way of getting the 380Z fileserver backed > > up! > > What about hacking around with the Acorn SASI controller, e.g. the one in > your ACW? I assume you have schematics, etc for that. Yep, could do - plus I've got the schematics for the Torch one somewhere. Just wanted to check that there wasn't anything funny about the RML one (there shouldn't be) - SASI should be SASI no matter what. > [PROMS] > I'll send you a uuencoded tar.gz file of the ones in my machine (CPU, RAM > expansion, 40 column video, hi-res). May be a start. Brilliant - ta muchly for that. I'll see if I can work my programmer out and read the others that I have... > > "COS checks to see if there is a VDU plugged into the SIO-4 socket. If > > What does it look for? One of the handshake lines being asseted? Doesn't say, unfortunately. I actually think that RML started out with the best intentions when producing their documents and wanted to document everything - with the result being that time constraints meant things were somewhat patchy! Related stuff seems to be spread over lots of docs seemingly randomly in places, plus there are some big holes... > > there is, all subsequent output via the scroller output EMTs is sent to > > this VDU. Graphical output, such as the front panel, or low or high > > resolution graphics, still appear on the RML screen. If a character is > > Argh!. While twin monitor setups are useful in some cases, this sounds > like something of a kludge. Yep I agree - still, it's nice that the functionality's sort of there. I'll have to try it sometime - just got my own 380Z up and running again. > The EMTs (one of the Z80 RSTs followed by a function code byte) are > certainly used in the CP/M CBIOS. I suspect a lot of software uses them. Well that's a good thing in this case :) > Personally, I'd try to use the RML's video card for everything, which > means kludging up a keyboard. It can't be that hard, the interface is as > simple as it gets. Yep, true. I'll have to have a look inside one of the Cifer keyboards sometime as they look the part - maybe one of those can be hooked up via an interface... > > Heh, I know what you mean! In the case of RML stuff I like to try and > > keep track of who has what anyway as it's reasonably uncommon stuff. > > By my standards they're fairly common.... Oh sure, not super-rare - but it's much easier to pick up an S100 system (say) than a 380Z or other systems of similar age / performance / flexibility. I seem to have been pretty lucky with RML finds over the years. seeya Jules From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jul 4 20:30:11 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 03:30:11 +0200 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42C9E2A3.1060901@hachti.de> Oh :-( I am already shocked about the price being higher than $1000 !!! How should students like me be able to play with old computers if some people thing that these machines have the value of their weight in gold....!?! From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 4 20:36:35 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 21:36:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <42C9E2A3.1060901@hachti.de> Message-ID: > I am already shocked about the price being higher than $1000 !!! > How should students like me be able to play with old computers if some > people thing that these machines have the value of their weight in > gold....!?! Get a Data General or an Interdata - they tend to be cheaper by a good stretch. I was actually thinking about starting an informal pool on the Straight-8 sale, but did not get around to it. When the next awesome machine hits email, lets set one up. Anyone want to venture what a PDP-1 would fetch? S/360? William Donzelli aw299 at osfn.org From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 4 21:09:26 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 19:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old Bond Movie with Apple IIc In-Reply-To: <00c401c580fe$2b7c1d90$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> from "Richard A. Cini" at "Jul 4, 5 09:09:18 pm" Message-ID: <200507050209.TAA15030@floodgap.com> > That was an absolutely great movie. Roger Moore's last I think. Also a > decent computer game (from Mindscape...I played it on the Mac). I wouldn't have called it terrible, but it definitely wasn't on my top ten list of Bonds. My favourite, simply because it's weird, is still Diamonds Are Forever, but of the Roger Moore movies, I think The Spy Who Loved Me, Moonraker (except for the bad effect scenes) and For Your Eyes Only were much better. View To A Kill was not an auspicious ending for Moore's tour of duty. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Well done is better than well said. -- Benjamin Franklin ------------------- From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Jul 4 23:22:36 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 06:22:36 +0200 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <42C9E2A3.1060901@hachti.de> Message-ID: <6A9B04EA-ED0C-11D9-8363-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Am dinsdag, 05.07.05, um 03:30 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Philipp Hachtmann: > Oh :-( > > I am already shocked about the price being higher than $1000 !!! > How should students like me be able to play with old computers if some > people thing that these machines have the value of their weight in > gold....!?! By swapping of course. You have 3 8/L's, you could easily swap one or two for other interesting machines. Ebay is not the only means to get machines. Jos From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 5 00:07:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 22:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050704173717.00a78100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, Joe R. wrote: > Wow! Somebody really wanted that one! > me=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1? Somebody got a smoking good deal. Something like that is not likely to come around again anytime soon. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 5 00:15:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 22:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > I am already shocked about the price being higher than $1000 !!! > > How should students like me be able to play with old computers if some > > people thing that these machines have the value of their weight in > > gold....!?! > > Get a Data General or an Interdata - they tend to be cheaper by a good > stretch. > > I was actually thinking about starting an informal pool on the Straight-8 > sale, but did not get around to it. When the next awesome machine hits > email, lets set one up. > > Anyone want to venture what a PDP-1 would fetch? S/360? $50K. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jul 5 01:14:07 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 01:14:07 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200507050114.07320.pat@computer-refuge.org> Vintage Computer Festival declared on Tuesday 05 July 2005 12:15 am: > On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > > I am already shocked about the price being higher than $1000 !!! > > > How should students like me be able to play with old computers if > > > some people thing that these machines have the value of their > > > weight in gold....!?! > > > > Get a Data General or an Interdata - they tend to be cheaper by a > > good stretch. > > > > I was actually thinking about starting an informal pool on the > > Straight-8 sale, but did not get around to it. When the next awesome > > machine hits email, lets set one up. > > > > Anyone want to venture what a PDP-1 would fetch? S/360? > > $50K. $1M! Wait, are we supposed to give realistic numbers? $50k for a -1 seems high but not totally unreasonable for a machine that is in excellent (running) condition, if it were sold through a 'real' auction house, like Christie's, under the best possible circumstances. $50k for an S/360 does seem too high, though, because the S/360 has a lower 'collectability' (interest, and more of them were produced). Price on the S/360 would probably also follow what CPU model (among other factors). A Model 30 would likely produce nowhere near as much interest as a Model 91, and peripherals would likely make a bigger difference with the S/360 than they would with the -1. At best, I'd give a number in the $10k-$20k range for a relatively complete, working, and scratch-free S/360 setup (with the most desirable CPU and peripherals) under the 'best conditions'. Bear in mind, I've never actually seen a S/360 setup sell anywhere and these are #s I've just pulled out of my ass. Your mileage may vary. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cc at corti-net.de Tue Jul 5 03:54:19 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:54:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: LGP-30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > John Bohner got it.. I know he's a big fan of the G-15 and friends. > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5784697941 > I'll have to put the pics up for it, it was REALLY nice, full > docs, and software. Hopefully I can get copies from John at > some point. Hopefully it will be working again some day... Until now there's only one working LGP-30 in the world, only some rooms away :-) I really hope getting copies from all the paper tapes. We do have a large collection of software, too, but there might be some paper tapes we don't have. We also have nearly all printsets for the (European) LGP-30 and LGP-21, blueprints, maintenance manuals etc. Christian From news at computercollector.com Tue Jul 5 04:54:57 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 05:54:57 -0400 Subject: Restoration of the HP garage Message-ID: <200507051000.j65A0Pj5058985@keith.ezwind.net> http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/12034644.htm ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 750 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 5 07:35:38 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 08:35:38 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/34 Programmer's Panel, Bubble Memory, DEC Rack Panel on E-bay Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050705083538.00a66880@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Joe From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jul 5 08:02:12 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 08:02:12 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: In-Reply-To: <2241.82.152.112.73.1120520682.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <20050704204108.86490.qmail@web30611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <42C9C3EC.1050107@jetnet.ab.ca> <2241.82.152.112.73.1120520682.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050705065129.051e46f0@mail> It also occurs to me that if someone is willing to engage in this hobby - and especially if it's something closer to a career - that spending a little money here and there to get what you desire shouldn't be that much of a problem, especially dealing with a place as risky as eBay. You can do a lot with very little cash. Think something's valuable to you? Think your top bid is $100? Then risk a little more - take possession of it, scan the manuals or examine the insides, then put it back on eBay. You're out the cost of shipping plus auctioning it again. So what? Maybe you could even send a note to the seller, asking him to send a note to the next two lower bidders, offering the item to them outside of eBay after you're done. Frugality is great, but if you don't have the spare cash to spend, don't spend your last bit on computer junk. - John From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 5 10:01:22 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507050114.07320.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > Anyone want to venture what a PDP-1 would fetch? S/360? > > > > $50K. > > $1M! > > Wait, are we supposed to give realistic numbers? > > $50k for a -1 seems high but not totally unreasonable for a machine that > is in excellent (running) condition, if it were sold through a 'real' > auction house, like Christie's, under the best possible circumstances. It's a high number but as you say, not unreasonable. > $50k for an S/360 does seem too high, though, because the S/360 has a > lower 'collectability' (interest, and more of them were produced). How many PDP-1's have you seen around? How many IBM 360's? There are way more PDP-1's known to still exist than IBM 360's, and there's only a handful of PDP-1's left. The 360 also has a huge following of historical nuts. > Price on the S/360 would probably also follow what CPU model (among > other factors). A Model 30 would likely produce nowhere near as much > interest as a Model 91, and peripherals would likely make a bigger > difference with the S/360 than they would with the -1. At best, I'd > give a number in the $10k-$20k range for a relatively complete, working, > and scratch-free S/360 setup (with the most desirable CPU and > peripherals) under the 'best conditions'. You may be right. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Jul 5 12:13:31 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:13:31 -0400 Subject: Help setting up a SBS/Bit3 PCI-to-VMEBus cards In-Reply-To: <0IJ000LFEZFGZJ60@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> References: <0IJ000LFEZFGZJ60@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050704114228.07421d58@mail.netsync.net> Hi Ram, I've had experience using the Bit3 Model 973 adapter set at the company I once worked at. It was back in 1997 when the project was constructed and my memory has suffered quite a lot of bit-rot since then (sound familiar to some of you? :-) You do need windoze drivers for the PCI side, but I don't have an installable set in the project software files I kept that used the product. I do have some files I could email to you to pick apart if you cannot find an original windoze95 driver disk. The application was written in Delphi 2.x while the custom-designed VMEbus controller used homespun firmware -which I do not have. I should note that the homespun files are commented in mostly English but there's some German interspersed -depending upon which engineer wrote them. I recall it was a pita to get the windoze95 machine and the VMEbus system communicating well. My German colleagues (at our parent company) designed/built the VMEbus hardware did the software integration. They reported that they used the right magic incantations and German cuss words. I just did the English translations of the user interface for us and the Chicago plant. Wish I had kept a copy of the drivers package and manual in case I or someone else ran into a 973 :-/ Oh well . . . Let me know, Ram, if you want the installed driver files (LESS the .dll and other files that were not placed in the user directory). Regards, Chris F. NNNN Upon the date 20:30 02-07-05, Ram Meenakshisundaram said something like: >Hi, > >Does anyone know how to set these boards up? I have a SBS 616 PCI adapter >and its corresponding VMEBus adapter. I also have a VME Chassis and I want >to install some transputer boards on the chassis and access it via Windows. >Anyone have experience in using these??? > >Thanks, > >Ram Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Jul 5 12:27:38 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:27:38 -0400 Subject: Help setting up a SBS/Bit3 PCI-to-VMEBus cards Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE3BB@exchange.olf.com> Hi Chris, I was able to get the drivers from SBS. They have the manuals, etc online and anyone can download them. Better than other companies where it is a pain to get them. Since I am quite a newbie when it comes to VME, I am not sure if I installed everything correctly. I got the chassis hooked up and everything and the showrevs utility does seem to pick up both the PCI and VMEBus cards. I really want to get this working under Linux, but I want the windows version up and running first. Here is what I have so far: 1) A VME Chassis with the SBS board connected to slot #0 (System controller) 2) Several transputer VME slave boards on the other slots. I want just the 1st transputer board to be recognized by the VME bus while the others are there just for power and J2 connections. 3) The drivers I have for the transputer boards are UNIX source files which I need to convert over to Windows XP/SBS style. I could surely use some help here (any software that illustrates how to communicate when be helpful). 4) There seems to be terminators? on both the J1 and J2 on slot #0. What are they used for? Should I remove them? They are on the back of the VME Chassis. 5) This is a VERO chassis (if that has any relevance). Thanks a lot, Ram From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Jul 5 12:34:11 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:34:11 -0400 Subject: Help setting up a SBS/Bit3 PCI-to-VMEBus cards Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE3BC@exchange.olf.com> This chassis once held a FORCE SPARC VME controller. It has long since been removed by the previous owner. Hence, those terminators are probably from that board.... Thanks, Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: Ram Meenakshisundaram [mailto:RMeenaks at OLF.COM] > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 1:28 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Cc: cfandt at netsync.net > Subject: RE: Help setting up a SBS/Bit3 PCI-to-VMEBus cards > > > Hi Chris, > > I was able to get the drivers from SBS. They have the > manuals, etc online and anyone can download them. Better > than other companies where it is a pain to get them. Since I > am quite a newbie when it comes to VME, I am not sure if I > installed everything correctly. I got the chassis hooked up > and everything and the showrevs utility does seem to pick up > both the PCI and VMEBus cards. I really want to get this > working under Linux, but I want the windows version up and > running first. Here is what I have so far: > > 1) A VME Chassis with the SBS board connected to slot #0 > (System controller) > > 2) Several transputer VME slave boards on the other slots. I > want just the 1st transputer board to be recognized by the > VME bus while the others are there just for power and J2 > connections. > > 3) The drivers I have for the transputer boards are UNIX > source files which I need to convert over to Windows XP/SBS > style. I could surely use some help here (any software that > illustrates how to communicate when be helpful). > > 4) There seems to be terminators? on both the J1 and J2 on > slot #0. What are they used for? Should I remove them? > They are on the back of the VME Chassis. > > 5) This is a VERO chassis (if that has any relevance). > > Thanks a lot, > > > Ram > From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 12:41:13 2005 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:41:13 -0400 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types Message-ID: Hello all, Believe it or not, I couldn't find this on google, so I humbly submit it here.... Does anyone have a list of the built-in drive types from the original IBM AT? I'd like the drive number, heads, cyls, and capacity if you have the list. The setup program on the diagnostics disk only lets you pick a type, but it does not tell you what the choices are... Of course, I know that later computers came along with BIOSes that let you see the drive types instead of picking one out of thin air, but I don't know if these followed the AT choices... Thanks! Rich B. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jul 5 13:06:36 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:06:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Richard Beaudry wrote: > Does anyone have a list of the built-in drive types from the original > IBM AT? I'd like the drive number, heads, cyls, and capacity if you > have the list. The setup program on the diagnostics disk only lets > you pick a type, but it does not tell you what the choices are... http://www.msclub.ce.cctpu.edu.ru/bibl/PCB/ch23.htm#Heading18 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Jul 5 13:19:25 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 14:19:25 -0400 Subject: Help setting up a SBS/Bit3 PCI-to-VMEBus cards In-Reply-To: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE3BB@exchange.olf.com> References: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE3BB@exchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050705135830.0752b888@mail.netsync.net> Upon the date 13:27 05-07-05, Ram Meenakshisundaram said something like: >Hi Chris, > >I was able to get the drivers from SBS. They have the manuals, etc online >and anyone can download them. Better than other companies where it is a That's great that SBS has them available on their website now. Back in 97/98, Bit3 themselves were a right pain to deal with and wanted much money for various software, manuals, etc. This was maybe 'cuz the 973 was new product, but still, don't abuse your customers! Anyway, during development, we ran the application in a mode that did not require the windoze PC to be lashed-up to the VMEbus equipment. However, the Bit 3 drivers HAD to be installed for the homespun hardware emulator to work. This is great in that I can download and install the Bit3 drivers and once again perhaps play with this application, an old friend :-) Seems the compiled application was around 1 meg in size, large for those days with minimal GUI requirements. >pain to get them. Since I am quite a newbie when it comes to VME, I am not >sure if I installed everything correctly. I got the chassis hooked up and >everything and the showrevs utility does seem to pick up both the PCI and >VMEBus cards. I really want to get this working under Linux, but I want the >windows version up and running first. Here is what I have so far: Well, with some of the Delphi files written in Pascal, you may be able to extract enough to get an idea on writing C drivers both for windoze and for Linux. >1) A VME Chassis with the SBS board connected to slot #0 (System controller) Correct location. See termination comment below . . . >2) Several transputer VME slave boards on the other slots. I want just the >1st transputer board to be recognized by the VME bus while the others are >there just for power and J2 connections. > >3) The drivers I have for the transputer boards are UNIX source files which >I need to convert over to Windows XP/SBS style. I could surely use some >help here (any software that illustrates how to communicate when be >helpful). Well, I'll rummage around in the directory where I have the project stored an email them to you. Are you indicating that SBS/Bit3 has updated drivers for windoze xp? >4) There seems to be terminators? on both the J1 and J2 on slot #0. What >are they used for? Should I remove them? They are on the back of the VME >Chassis. Both ends of the VMEbus need to be terminated, so slot #0 having terminators is fine. Look at the last slot at the other end and see if there are terms there. Also, and this is where my memory fails me, there *may* have been provisions to terminate the bus on the SBS VME board. The manual should discuss that. >5) This is a VERO chassis (if that has any relevance). I believe VERO was a good VMEbus chassis/motherboard mfgr., so it should be a good, quiet design. Never had personal hands-on experience with VERO though. Now, with all this said, I'm very interested in getting a 973 board set, and cable, for myself so that I may experiment with lashing up PCs and to of my VMEbus systems! Anybody have any PCI/VME Bit3 interface card sets available?? >Thanks a lot, > > >Ram Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Jul 5 13:54:18 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:54:18 -0400 Subject: Help setting up a SBS/Bit3 PCI-to-VMEBus cards Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE3D0@exchange.olf.com> Hi Chris, Drivers for the SBS 616 are available for Windows XP/Linux/Solaris here: http://www.sbs.com/products/software/280 I picked mine up on ebay. I also picked up a SBUS-to-VME one as well, but its from Performance Tech SBS915 as well. There is currently one on ebay for a relatively cheap price (picked mine from the same guy): http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=51239&item=3983996787 &rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW And its New in Box condition like mines. Now, if my board needs to use J2 connectors, do I need to install that on top of the terminators as well? The transputer boards has its own J2 plug which I installed on all the slots. Why do you need terminators if the chassis is limited to only 5 slots and all the slots are occupied??? Thanks, Ram From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 5 14:08:43 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 12:08:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga 2000 Floppy Drive problem Message-ID: <200507051908.MAA23345@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Has anyone mentioned measuring the voltages on the control pins. It would be good to know if it was the controls or the drive. Dwight >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >On 7/1/05, Teo Zenios wrote: >> Jumper 301 is still in the open position (for a single drive). > >Perfect. > >> The two 8520's looked ok (nothing shorting pins together or stuff like that, >> no signs of overheating). I swapped the 2 chips around and still have the >> same result (external Df2: works while the internal DF0: is dead). > >OK... swapping the 8520s and watching the symptoms was a pretty >standard method back in the day - it's easy and it works, so that >_probably_ shows your 8520s are OK. > >> I checked the floppy cable and didn't see anything out of the ordinary >> (except a pin in what looks like position 2 of the cable but I think that is >> a key, since the motherboard does not look like it has a broken pin on it). > >That _is_ a key (and needs to be in any Amiga hardware FAQ - I can't >remember how many times we had to tell people that in our Amiga club - >every novice who added an internal floppy use to call us up and ask >how to "replace a broken pin"... they thought that the >pin had become stuck, and they must have pulled it out when they >messed with the cable. > >> At this point I think it either the floppy cable has a bad line, or the >> drive is just dead. Since the amiga cable does not look like a standard >> floppy cable I think I will try setting the drive for Df1: and shorting >> Jumper 301 to see if its recognized at all. > > >> I did some research and quite a few older DD 3.5" PC drives can be jumpered >> to Amiga mode (ofcourse I don't have any on the list). > >And they support the /DISK-EXCHANGE signal (p 34?) That was what >always hosed frugal early-adopters of the Amiga - they'd try to use a >cheap floppy, and the OS wouldn't be able to step the drive in and out >one track to get the drive to assert the /DISK-EXCHAGE (or whichever >one it was) so that the drive could 'tell' the OS that the diskette >that used to be there isn't there any more. > >You _can_ hook up a floppy drive that won't assert that signal, but >that places a burden on the user's head to have to type an AmigaDOS >command to flush the previous diskette's particulars and to cache the >new diskette. > >-ethan > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 5 14:13:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:13:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120526394.10917.18.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 5, 5 01:19:54 am Message-ID: > > On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 01:09 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Not me yet... more interested in their SASI controller at this stage to > > > be honest as I really need a way of getting the 380Z fileserver backed > > > up! > > > > What about hacking around with the Acorn SASI controller, e.g. the one in > > your ACW? I assume you have schematics, etc for that. > > Yep, could do - plus I've got the schematics for the Torch one > somewhere. Just wanted to check that there wasn't anything funny about IIRC Torch made a SCSI controller for the Beeb, it was used with a ROM called SCISFS. If you've found one of those you're very lucky, I am told that fewer than 100 were made. > the RML one (there shouldn't be) - SASI should be SASI no matter what. IIRC the RML hard disk unit used a standard ST506-interfaced drive and a standard bridgeboard to SASI (Xebec?) In which case the host adapter is going to be pretty normal too. > > > [PROMS] > > I'll send you a uuencoded tar.gz file of the ones in my machine (CPU, RAM > > expansion, 40 column video, hi-res). May be a start. > > Brilliant - ta muchly for that. I'll see if I can work my programmer out > and read the others that I have... >From what I remember there are no PROMs on the standard (non-intellegent) disk controller or on the PIO card that I have somewhere. The latter is a board with an address decoder, 3 Z80-PIOs and a Z80-CTC on it, along with a wire-wrap area. I don't have schematics, but it would be trivial to work out. > > > > "COS checks to see if there is a VDU plugged into the SIO-4 socket. If > > > > What does it look for? One of the handshake lines being asseted? > > Doesn't say, unfortunately. I actually think that RML started out with > the best intentions when producing their documents and wanted to > document everything - with the result being that time constraints meant To be fair, the RML docs are an order-of-magnitude about the crap you get with modern computer products. It should be piossible to work out what COS looks for from the source listings. I am not sure, though, if the version on vt100.net is recent enough to support this. It's a pity nobody has the COS 3.4 or COS 4.0 listings. > > Personally, I'd try to use the RML's video card for everything, which > > means kludging up a keyboard. It can't be that hard, the interface is as > > simple as it gets. > > Yep, true. I'll have to have a look inside one of the Cifer keyboards > sometime as they look the part - maybe one of those can be hooked up via > an interface... I still wonder if the PC keyboard interface would be a good idea. It would have an adantage to you that the public at Bletchley could bash away on a PC keyboard without risking anything too rare. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 5 14:39:24 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:39:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: from "Richard Beaudry" at Jul 5, 5 01:41:13 pm Message-ID: > > Hello all, > > Believe it or not, I couldn't find this on google, so I humbly submit > it here.... > > Does anyone have a list of the built-in drive types from the original > IBM AT? I'd like the drive number, heads, cyls, and capacity if you I have a BIOS source listing that gives the hard disk parameter tables. It's not the _original_ BIOS (it's the 1985 one), but I think earlier ones just defined fewer drive types. Anyway : No Cylinders Heads Write Precomp Landing Zone Sectors/track 1 306 4 128 306 17 2 615 4 300 615 17 3 615 6 300 615 17 4 940 8 512 940 17 5 940 6 512 940 17 6 615 4 none 615 17 7 462 8 256 511 17 8 733 5 none 733 17 9 900 15 none 901 17 10 820 3 none 820 17 11 855 5 none 855 17 12 855 7 none 855 17 13 306 8 128 319 17 14 733 7 none 733 17 15 ------- RESERVED -- Do not use ---------------------------- 16 612 4 all 663 17 17 977 5 300 977 17 18 977 7 none 977 17 19 1024 7 512 1023 17 20 733 5 300 732 17 21 733 7 300 732 17 22 733 5 300 733 17 23 306 4 all 336 17 Guessing what the various drives were is left as an exercise for the reader :-) -tony From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jul 5 15:26:09 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:26:09 -0400 Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info Message-ID: <20050705202608.IQA17632.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Tony, >> There's a little motor/gearbox to move the head, and I think a position >> detelction swtich. I will check the manual for you. The technical manual >> I have gives schematics for the cassette option, exploded views, >> dismantling instructions, etc. > >HEre's a little information on how this works. > > ... lots of useful info ... Thanks! - that was very helpful. When you said "quite a fiddle" you weren't kidding ... but on the + side, it gets easier after about the third time... Problem turned out to be mechanical, a combination of dirt/aging lubricants in the mechanics which slide the head/capstan in and out, and dirty contacts in the position detector leaf switch. After cleaning and lubricating the mechanical parts, and cleaning and adjusting the switch (which is quite finicy - hence the "several times" - it's more fun to take apart with a tape stuck in it) ... the drive is working fine now, and the HX-20 is saving and loading programs like it was new! Thanks again & regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From g-wright at worldnet.att.net Tue Jul 5 12:28:44 2005 From: g-wright at worldnet.att.net (g-wright) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:28:44 -0400 Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost Message-ID: <42CAC34C.4000502@worldnet.att.net> Hi, I'm trying to get one of my 11-23's going and finally got around to setting up a TU58 emulator. got it to boot RT-11 and now trying to get a RX-02 working. I have 3 controllers and 3 sets of RX-02's. All do the same thing. The just seems to not be able to find track 1 or Home or ??? The heads just keep going from home to maybe the first tack and back. The heads do load and the system tries quit a few times then pauses and tries again. It then errors on drive failure or read error directory not found, size function failed depends what I ask it to do. I have tried all of the boards and drives. all or them seem to do the same thing. I do not know how good the drives are but can't believe there all bad. I have recheck the switches in the RX-02 and the Jumpers on the cards. Cleaned the drives. tried different disks. Is there some kind of compatibility issue that i do not know about. Or do I have 6 dead drives. The system is a Micro PDP 11, 8 slot Rack mount, with 1 M8189 11-23+ 1 M8067 KB 256k Memory 1 M8639 YA MFM rx50 controller 1 M8029 RX-02 controller - in this order. Everything else seems to work. I added the floppy card but the rest is original. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 5 15:50:13 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:50:13 +0100 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c581a3$25234d10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >It should be piossible to work out what COS looks for from the source >listings. I am not sure, though, if the version on vt100.net is recent >enough to support this. It's a pity nobody has the COS 3.4 or COS 4.0 >listings. I cannot find the COS listings in there at all. I must have missed a manual somewhere. I'll traipse up into the attic in the next day or two and see if I can find the right box. Antonio From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 5 15:56:22 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:56:22 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120596982.11893.45.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 20:13 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > What about hacking around with the Acorn SASI controller, e.g. the one in > > > your ACW? I assume you have schematics, etc for that. > > > > Yep, could do - plus I've got the schematics for the Torch one > > somewhere. Just wanted to check that there wasn't anything funny about > > IIRC Torch made a SCSI controller for the Beeb, it was used with a ROM > called SCISFS. If you've found one of those you're very lucky, I am told > that fewer than 100 were made. Hmm... my Torch 725 has a Torch SCSI board in it - although I recall that it's not a complex board at all, just a handful of TTL chips. Whether that's the same board as available from them for the BBC I don't know, but as the 725 uses a BBC as the I/O processor it's reasonable to suggest that it is. I'll have to check what ROMs it has... (it's got one of the Torch 68000 coprocessors in it and should run Unix - *but* I have a feeling that the hard drive's toast and I don't think it's something I have media for) The big brown-cased C-series machines that had hard disks in used a Torch SASI board; I expect those are somewhat more common... > > the RML one (there shouldn't be) - SASI should be SASI no matter what. > > IIRC the RML hard disk unit used a standard ST506-interfaced drive and a > standard bridgeboard to SASI (Xebec?) In which case the host adapter is > going to be pretty normal too. Can't remember what make the bridge board is now, but yep, it's one of the common ones. The controller shouldn't be doing anything funny with signal lines or the data, but I thought I'd check! > >From what I remember there are no PROMs on the standard (non-intellegent) > disk controller or on the PIO card that I have somewhere. The latter is a > board with an address decoder, 3 Z80-PIOs and a Z80-CTC on it, along with > a wire-wrap area. I don't have schematics, but it would be trivial to > work out. Nice - I've not seen one of the PIO boards before. And agreed, I don't think there's a PROM on the standard FDC either. > It should be piossible to work out what COS looks for from the source > listings. I am not sure, though, if the version on vt100.net is recent > enough to support this. It's a pity nobody has the COS 3.4 or COS 4.0 > listings. Hmm yep, that is a shame. I think a lot changed between COS 3.0 and 3.4... > I still wonder if the PC keyboard interface would be a good idea. It > would have an adantage to you that the public at Bletchley could bash > away on a PC keyboard without risking anything too rare. Yep, that is a good point. Mind you, we've got a couple of VT220s with dead LOPTs - they'd make nice input-only devices! cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 5 15:58:13 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:58:13 +0000 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120597093.11910.47.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 20:39 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > I have a BIOS source listing that gives the hard disk parameter tables. > It's not the _original_ BIOS (it's the 1985 one), but I think earlier > ones just defined fewer drive types. Anyway : Home come entry 15 was reserved? (and why pick 15?) cheers J. From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Jul 5 16:04:39 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 17:04:39 -0400 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE3DF@exchange.olf.com> See Mike's link for an explanation... http://www.msclub.ce.cctpu.edu.ru/bibl/PCB/ch23.htm#Heading18 Cheers, Ram > -----Original Message----- > From: Jules Richardson [mailto:julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk] > Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 4:58 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: IBM AT Drive Types > > Home come entry 15 was reserved? (and why pick 15?) > > cheers > > J. > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jul 5 16:30:04 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 17:30:04 -0400 Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost Message-ID: <0IJ6002K8BPT8RK4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost > From: g-wright > Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 13:28:44 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Hi, > >I'm trying to get one of my 11-23's going and finally >got around to setting up a TU58 emulator. got it >to boot RT-11 and now trying to get a RX-02 working. > >I have 3 controllers and 3 sets of RX-02's. All do the same >thing. The just seems to not be able to find track 1 or Home >or ??? The heads just keep going from home to maybe the >first tack and back. The heads do load and the system tries >quit a few times then pauses and tries again. It then errors >on drive failure or read error directory not found, size >function failed depends what I ask it to do. I have tried all >of the boards and drives. all or them seem to do the same > thing. I do not know how good the drives are but can't > believe there all bad. > >I have recheck the switches in the RX-02 and the Jumpers on >the cards. Cleaned the drives. tried different disks. > >Is there some kind of compatibility issue that i do not know >about. Or do I have 6 dead drives. > >The system is a Micro PDP 11, 8 slot Rack mount, with >1 M8189 11-23+ >1 M8067 KB 256k Memory >1 M8639 YA MFM rx50 controller >1 M8029 RX-02 controller >- in this order. > >Everything else seems to work. I added the floppy card >but the rest is original. > > >Thanks, Jerry > >Jerry Wright >JLC inc > Either you blew the interrupt grant chain (the 8639 should be last!) or you didn't put a bootable system on the disks. The boot behavour suggests that the boot track is bare or worse. You should have done a copy/boot to get the system bootable off floppy. since you can boot RT via TU58 you should make sure you have the DY device loaded and do a DUP /bad DY0:. A tu58 system (or emulator) is big enough to carry all the needed devices and drivers. As far as compatability, I've used RX02 with every Qbus I have successfully. Allison From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 5 16:32:22 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:32:22 +0100 Subject: DEC stuff on ebay (UK) In-Reply-To: <1120597093.11910.47.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <000001c581a9$0887c9a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> A PDP-11/03 chassis (same one as before I think, but cheaper): http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5214 435231&rd=1 A DECserver 200 (personally I'd like a 100 ...): http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5214 781703&rd=1 A MicroVAX 3100 of some sort, comes with tapes, some of which could do with imaging: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5786946507&rd=1&ssp agename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 And finally, tonight's star prize, four VAX 6000-600s, fully loaded and, as a special bonus, a bunch of HSJs and cables: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5216108968&rd=1&ssp agename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 I know someone was interested in a VAX 6000 .... Antonio From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Jul 5 16:37:28 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:37:28 +0100 Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost References: <42CAC34C.4000502@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <008701c581a9$bef7e3a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> > I'm trying to get one of my 11-23's going and finally > got around to setting up a TU58 emulator. got it > to boot RT-11 and now trying to get a RX-02 working. > Are you booting RT11 off of the TU58 emulator? (if so, where did you get the disk image?) > > Is there some kind of compatibility issue that i do not know > about. Or do I have 6 dead drives. > > The system is a Micro PDP 11, 8 slot Rack mount, with > 1 M8189 11-23+ > 1 M8067 KB 256k Memory > 1 M8639 YA MFM rx50 controller > 1 M8029 RX-02 controller > - in this order. > > Everything else seems to work. I added the floppy card > but the rest is original. > I would be tempted to try the machine without the RX50 controller - move the RX02 up one slot. There are a couple of XXDP images available on the web, so you could build an XXDP test that will boot from the TU58 emulator, and test the RX02 that way. Jim. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 5 16:43:13 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" Message-ID: <200507052143.OAA23393@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I rarely bid on an item before the last day. This is mostly because there are so many items that one doesn't have time to stay more than a day or so ahead. Also, some people seem to like to have shorter time auctions. If I look to far ahead, I might miss one of these quickies. I usually do last minute bidding if I'm around a computer but I also like to put in what I call a place holder bid. People can then look at my previous bidding and deside if they want to waste time bidding against me. I get pissed when someone pulls an item early. It has only happened a couple of times. One the really ticked me was that someone had a mod-8 board populated with 1702A's. I'd just placed my place holder bid and they pulled the auction. What is worse is that I suspect that they later pulled the EPROMs from the board to sell separately. Now the program data that was in the EPROMs are surely lost :( Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 5 16:51:22 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" Message-ID: <200507052151.OAA23398@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" > >No, it doent keep them from finding them at the last minute, they are >just not there to find. With 7 days to look, I dont think I miss very >many because they are late to the party. If you are a dollar short >and 6 hours late, tough luck. Do you think a real auction house would >hold the bidding while someone ran from the parking lot to try to get >in a bid at the last minute? > Hi You seem to assume that we all have time to watch earlier items. I find that I can just keep up with one or two days ahead. Even so, I have to skip maybe 1 or 2 days a week. Some how, you seem to think that people are just watching for 7 days. Most are only looking one or two days ahead. If it is an item that has already gone past my max, I don't waste time on it. If it is still in my price range, I'll bid on it. Usually the first bid is just a place holder below what I expect to make as my final bid. Dwight From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Jul 5 17:02:06 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 23:02:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC stuff on ebay (UK) In-Reply-To: <000001c581a9$0887c9a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <1120597093.11910.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <000001c581a9$0887c9a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <1717.82.152.112.73.1120600926.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > And finally, tonight's star prize, four VAX 6000-600s, fully loaded and, > as > a special bonus, a bunch of HSJs and cables: Meltie's going to explode :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 5 17:12:44 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 Message-ID: <200507052212.PAA23422@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >How many PDP-1's have you seen around? How many IBM 360's? There are way >more PDP-1's known to still exist than IBM 360's, and there's only a >handful of PDP-1's left. The 360 also has a huge following of historical >nuts. > Hi Sellam You have to remember, that machine was in the lease days of IBM. They took back their old machines and flattened them in a wreaking yard down at Santa Maria. I used to look for things like blocks of core memory there. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 5 17:19:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507052212.PAA23422@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > > > >How many PDP-1's have you seen around? How many IBM 360's? There are way > >more PDP-1's known to still exist than IBM 360's, and there's only a > >handful of PDP-1's left. The 360 also has a huge following of historical > >nuts. > > > > Hi Sellam > You have to remember, that machine was in the lease > days of IBM. They took back their old machines and > flattened them in a wreaking yard down at Santa Maria. > I used to look for things like blocks of core memory > there. This is my point. Pat doesn't think an IBM 360 would sell for, say, as much as $50K. I agree with him that it may not attract the same sort of frenzy that a PDP-1 would (it's a different dynamic with IBM old iron collectors) but considering that they are probably more rare than PDP-1's (which is ironic considering the IBM 360 sold in the thousands(?) and the PDP-1 had a run of 50) if one did show up, and it was as complete the recent PDP-8 sale, then there would be a bidding frenzy like you wouldn't believe. I suspected the PDP-8 could fetch as high as $25K, and I still think this is a valid number. Bill Maddox actually got one hell of a deal. A PDP-1 equipped in an equivalent manner would surely fetch at least $25K, and so would the equivalent IBM 360 system (maybe a decked out 360/20). I'd be interested in knowing of any complete IBM 360's out in the wild (i.e. not already in museums). From what I know, there aren't many, if any (at least as yet undiscovered) so I'd like to be corrected if I'm ignorant. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 5 17:28:41 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 22:28:41 +0000 Subject: DEC stuff on ebay (UK) In-Reply-To: <1717.82.152.112.73.1120600926.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <1120597093.11910.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <000001c581a9$0887c9a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <1717.82.152.112.73.1120600926.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <1120602521.11910.55.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 23:02 +0100, Witchy wrote: > > And finally, tonight's star prize, four VAX 6000-600s, fully loaded and, > > as > > a special bonus, a bunch of HSJs and cables: > > Meltie's going to explode :) I dunno, you could just about live inside four of those :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 5 17:23:39 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:23:39 -0600 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507050114.07320.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200507050114.07320.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <42CB086B.2090201@jetnet.ab.ca> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival declared on Tuesday 05 July 2005 12:15 am: > Bear in mind, I've never actually seen a S/360 setup sell anywhere and > these are #s I've just pulled out of my ass. Your mileage may vary. > > Pat Let one not forget shipping costs on items. You can't just send a S/360 thru the US POST. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 5 17:27:56 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 16:27:56 -0600 Subject: DEC stuff on ebay (UK) In-Reply-To: <1120602521.11910.55.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1120597093.11910.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <000001c581a9$0887c9a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <1717.82.152.112.73.1120600926.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <1120602521.11910.55.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42CB096C.2090807@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 23:02 +0100, Witchy wrote: > >>>And finally, tonight's star prize, four VAX 6000-600s, fully loaded and, >>>as >>>a special bonus, a bunch of HSJs and cables: >> >>Meltie's going to explode :) > > > I dunno, you could just about live inside four of those :) With the docs you could make a nice roof for you new home. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 5 17:38:18 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 15:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: upp 103 on ebay Message-ID: <200507052238.PAA23428@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Wow! there is a UPP103 on ebay that is already over $400. It doesn't even have any personality cards in it. I hope that the people bidding on it realize that it won't program anything, listed by the seller, without the right personality card! Being that these have 4001's on them, not many could make such a card. Dwight From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 5 17:54:56 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 23:54:56 +0100 Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2e91eb854d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > YEs, but you don't know how high the winning bidder was prepared to go > either. He might have gone way higher than you were prepared to pay. Point taken. I have had fairly good luck in physical auctions - snagged a near-complete# Jupiter Ace for ?2. Then I went and knocked the PSU cable and blew up nearly every chip on the mainboard (Lesson #1: Buy a PSU with interchangeable connectors, instead of those "spiderplug" things)... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI "I'll take your 20kV and raise you 200kV. Go on, step off that plate. I dare you." From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jul 5 18:08:18 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 18:08:18 -0500 Subject: 11/45, sick or not? Message-ID: <004101c581b6$6ecce580$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I finally allocated another day to spend on the 11/45. Unfortunately, I must say I'm not sure if it's sick or not, hopefully someone can help. First, none of the blinking lights programs I've seen blink the lights. I can store and retrieve the program correctly, but when I put 1000 on the switches and hit load address then run, it goes into run mode but no lights blink (with any display switch setting). Halt makes the processor halt. Here's what I did: 1000 005000 start: clr r0 1002 005200 inc r0 1004 006100 loop: rol r0 1006 000005 reset 1010 000775 br loop On this program I put 1000 in the switches, hit load address, then run. Address lights constantly show 1010, Data lights are blank, and the Run light is on. Data Paths setting shows 0, bus register setting shows 5, uaddr shows 177774. Another test... if I store a 5007 (clr pc) in location 0 and start the processor at location 0, the address lights show all 0's, the data lights show 2, and the following lights are lit - pause, master, kernel. I also tried this with location 0 set to 777 (br .) and get the exact same results. More info... just after power up, the address lights show 20, the data lights show 21043 (data paths). Master & Kernel are on. The uaddress setting shows 177570. So... I decided to go back to basics and check all the power points at the pins on the backplane. Here's what I found: A02A2 0 A06A2 4.931 A10A1 4.931 A26A2 4.931 A19A2 0 A16A2 0 A21A2 0 E02B2 -15 A17V2 0 A22V2 0 A17U2 0 A22U2 0 F17C1 0 E15A1 16 E01B1 9 Since my machine only has regulators at B, C, D, E, and F, I suspect the 0 volt readings above are ok. All the 5 volt test points have a very clear .2v sawtooth pattern (which looks fairly smooth at 5v). Since one manual says the ripple limit is .15, and another manual says the ripple limit is .20, I suspect I'm ok there. The ripple on -15, 16, and 9 I can't see any noticeable. And by the way... the cpu cardset was borrowed from another listmember and tested before I received it so I don't think it's something wrong with the cpu cardset itself. Any thoughts? Jay West From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jul 5 18:11:50 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 16:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" Message-ID: <200507052311.QAA23435@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Philip Pemberton" > >In message > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >> YEs, but you don't know how high the winning bidder was prepared to go >> either. He might have gone way higher than you were prepared to pay. > >Point taken. >I have had fairly good luck in physical auctions - snagged a near-complete# >Jupiter Ace for ?2. Then I went and knocked the PSU cable and blew up nearly >every chip on the mainboard (Lesson #1: Buy a PSU with interchangeable >connectors, instead of those "spiderplug" things)... Better still, get one with the right connector or just buy the one plug and attach it to another PS. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 5 18:21:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 00:21:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: LF: Epson HX-20 service info In-Reply-To: <20050705202608.IQA17632.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jul 5, 5 04:26:09 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Tony, > > >> There's a little motor/gearbox to move the head, and I think a position > >> detelction swtich. I will check the manual for you. The technical manual > >> I have gives schematics for the cassette option, exploded views, > >> dismantling instructions, etc. > > > >HEre's a little information on how this works. > > > > ... lots of useful info ... > > Thanks! - that was very helpful. > When you said "quite a fiddle" you weren't kidding ... but on the + side, > it gets easier after about the third time... Indeed. It's been about 10 years since I took mine apart, and I still remember trying to get the darn thing out of the case without damaging it. > > Problem turned out to be mechanical, a combination of dirt/aging lubricants > in the mechanics which slide the head/capstan in and out, and dirty contacts Right. I am not altogether suprised. > in the position detector leaf switch. After cleaning and lubricating the > mechanical parts, and cleaning and adjusting the switch (which is quite > finicy - hence the "several times" - it's more fun to take apart with a tape > stuck in it) ... the drive is working fine now, and the HX-20 is saving and Can't you energise the HP motor from an external supply with the drive still in the top part of the case and get it to retract the head? > loading programs like it was new! Excellent! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 5 18:23:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 00:23:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <000001c581a3$25234d10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> from "Antonio Carlini" at Jul 5, 5 09:50:13 pm Message-ID: > > >It should be piossible to work out what COS looks for from the source > >listings. I am not sure, though, if the version on vt100.net is recent > >enough to support this. It's a pity nobody has the COS 3.4 or COS 4.0 > >listings. > > I cannot find the COS listings in there at all. I must have missed > a manual somewhere. I'll traipse up into the attic in the next day > or two and see if I can find the right box. IIRC you go to http://www,vt100.net/rm/ and follow the obvious link for documentation. Near (at?) the top of the list is a source listing for an early version of the COS monitor. It's about half a megabyte, pdf. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jul 5 18:31:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 00:31:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120596982.11893.45.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 5, 5 08:56:22 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 20:13 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > What about hacking around with the Acorn SASI controller, e.g. the one in > > > > your ACW? I assume you have schematics, etc for that. > > > > > > Yep, could do - plus I've got the schematics for the Torch one > > > somewhere. Just wanted to check that there wasn't anything funny about > > > > IIRC Torch made a SCSI controller for the Beeb, it was used with a ROM > > called SCISFS. If you've found one of those you're very lucky, I am told > > that fewer than 100 were made. > > Hmm... my Torch 725 has a Torch SCSI board in it - although I recall > that it's not a complex board at all, just a handful of TTL chips. That sounds like the Beeb one. Maybe it's Torch Beeb SCSI systems that are rare -- there's a plinth to go under the monitor that contains a floppy drive, hard drive, SCSI interface, etc. > Nice - I've not seen one of the PIO boards before. And agreed, I don't > think there's a PROM on the standard FDC either. Mine is not currently in my 380Z, in fact it's never been in my 380Z. It turned up in a box of Apple ][ cards I was given (and FWIW, some of those Apple boards are not common -- things like speech input boards, etc). I must find time to trace out the schematic, wire-wrap the PIOs to connectors in the prottyping area, and stick it in the 380Z. The PIOs and CTC are in wire-wrap DIL sockets. The bus side is wired up by traces on the PCB, the user is intended to wire-wrap to the appropriate pins on the sockets. There's space on the PCB for a few more ICs if you need to fiddle around with signals, and space for at least one IDC connector to bring your I/O signals off-board to connectors on the back of the 380Z. > > > It should be piossible to work out what COS looks for from the source > > listings. I am not sure, though, if the version on vt100.net is recent > > enough to support this. It's a pity nobody has the COS 3.4 or COS 4.0 > > listings. > > Hmm yep, that is a shame. I think a lot changed between COS 3.0 and > 3.4... One day I muast disassemnle COS 3.4,,, > > > I still wonder if the PC keyboard interface would be a good idea. It > > would have an adantage to you that the public at Bletchley could bash > > away on a PC keyboard without risking anything too rare. > > Yep, that is a good point. Mind you, we've got a couple of VT220s with > dead LOPTs - they'd make nice input-only devices! I would suggest an LM201-RML interface, except that the LK201 needs +12V, which is not available on the 380Z keyboard connector (+5V and -12V are). Using that keyboard would be more work, therefore. -tony From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 5 19:27:05 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:27:05 -0400 Subject: 11/45, sick or not? In-Reply-To: <004101c581b6$6ecce580$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050705202705.00a69100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Are you sure that the lights aren't blinking too fast to see? Perhaps you can hang a logic probe (with a pulse extender) on one of the lights to be sure. Joe At 06:08 PM 7/5/05 -0500, you wrote: >I finally allocated another day to spend on the 11/45. Unfortunately, I must >say I'm not sure if it's sick or not, hopefully someone can help. > >First, none of the blinking lights programs I've seen blink the lights. I >can store and retrieve the program correctly, but when I put 1000 on the >switches and hit load address then run, it goes into run mode but no lights >blink (with any display switch setting). Halt makes the processor halt. >Here's what I did: > >1000 005000 start: clr r0 >1002 005200 inc r0 >1004 006100 loop: rol r0 >1006 000005 reset >1010 000775 br loop > >On this program I put 1000 in the switches, hit load address, then run. >Address lights constantly show 1010, Data lights are blank, and the Run >light is on. Data Paths setting shows 0, bus register setting shows 5, uaddr >shows 177774. > >Another test... if I store a 5007 (clr pc) in location 0 and start the >processor at location 0, the address lights show all 0's, the data lights >show 2, and the following lights are lit - pause, master, kernel. I also >tried this with location 0 set to 777 (br .) and get the exact same results. > >More info... just after power up, the address lights show 20, the data >lights show 21043 (data paths). Master & Kernel are on. The uaddress setting >shows 177570. > >So... I decided to go back to basics and check all the power points at the >pins on the backplane. Here's what I found: >A02A2 0 >A06A2 4.931 >A10A1 4.931 >A26A2 4.931 >A19A2 0 >A16A2 0 >A21A2 0 >E02B2 -15 >A17V2 0 >A22V2 0 >A17U2 0 >A22U2 0 >F17C1 0 >E15A1 16 >E01B1 9 > >Since my machine only has regulators at B, C, D, E, and F, I suspect the 0 >volt readings above are ok. All the 5 volt test points have a very clear .2v >sawtooth pattern (which looks fairly smooth at 5v). Since one manual says >the ripple limit is .15, and another manual says the ripple limit is .20, I >suspect I'm ok there. The ripple on -15, 16, and 9 I can't see any >noticeable. > >And by the way... the cpu cardset was borrowed from another listmember and >tested before I received it so I don't think it's something wrong with the >cpu cardset itself. > >Any thoughts? > >Jay West > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 5 19:30:22 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:30:22 -0400 Subject: upp 103 on ebay In-Reply-To: <200507052238.PAA23428@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050705203022.00a6da70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Things like Prolog 900s and iUPP103s with i4040s in them have really taken off on E-bay lately. Joe At 03:38 PM 7/5/05 -0700, you wrote: >Hi > Wow! there is a UPP103 on ebay that is already >over $400. It doesn't even have any personality >cards in it. I hope that the people bidding on >it realize that it won't program anything, listed >by the seller, without the right personality card! >Being that these have 4001's on them, not many >could make such a card. >Dwight > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jul 5 19:34:14 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 20:34:14 -0400 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050705203414.00a692c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:41 PM 7/5/05 -0400, you wrote: >Hello all, > >Believe it or not, I couldn't find this on google, so I humbly submit >it here.... > >Does anyone have a list of the built-in drive types from the original >IBM AT? I'd like the drive number, heads, cyls, and capacity if you >have the list. The setup program on the diagnostics disk only lets >you pick a type, but it does not tell you what the choices are... > >Of course, I know that later computers came along with BIOSes that let >you see the drive types instead of picking one out of thin air, but I >don't know if these followed the AT choices... They don't! They usually follow the AT types for the first ten or fifteen or so but after that they differ AND the added settings are all different in different clone BIOSs. Joe > >Thanks! >Rich B. > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jul 5 19:45:08 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 19:45:08 -0500 Subject: 11/45, sick or not? References: <3.0.6.32.20050705202705.00a69100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <001001c581c3$f596e540$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Joe wrote... > Are you sure that the lights aren't blinking too fast to see? Perhaps you > can hang a logic probe (with a pulse extender) on one of the lights to be > sure. I'll try that tomorrow... but I wouldn't think that is what is happening. Also, pardon my lack of knowledge, but... shouldn't I be seeing the .2v ripple as an AC component (ie. a sine wave)? It's a very clear perfect sawtooth. And it's exactly the same on all the 5V regulators, which strikes me as odd. Jay From mbbrutman at brutman.com Tue Jul 5 19:53:01 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 19:53:01 -0500 Subject: Swapping Hi density drives for low density drives In-Reply-To: <200507051700.j65H04f8016514@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507051700.j65H04f8016514@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42CB2B6D.4050206@brutman.com> The format bug is new to me, but I'm on DOS 3.3 anyway and DOS 3.3 does not have any problems if I used a genuine 720K drive on the Jr. It does have problems if I use a 1.44MB drive instead. Here it is in table format. DOS 3.3 with no device drivers is always used and double density diskettes are always used. Real 720K drive on Jr: Boots DOS 3.3 from original IBM DOS 3.3 diskette Formats other diskettes with no problems Boots DOS 3.3 from a double density copy of the original. Passes diagnostics 1.44MB drive on Jr: Boots DOS 3.3 from original IBM DOS 3.3 diskette Will not format other diskettes: gets invalid media error Diags runs but reports error. (Probably related to above error) Diskette is readable - just track 0 has errors A double density diskette prepared on a 'bigger' machine, whether it be by disk copy or diskette imaging program fails on the Jr when using the 1.44MB drive. These other machines all have 1.44MB drives. Even though it fails on the Jr, it boots the other machines, so the diskette is fine. I suspect some sort of timing error when the 1.44MB drives talk to the Jr controller. I know I've used an ancient 1.44MB drive before .. all of the drives I tried this time around are newer. I'm wondering if something has changed in the manufacturing/design of the more modern drives that make them less tolerant or more error prone when using double density media. It's not like people test double density media often anymore. :-) I'm not bulk erasing .. I'd better go find a bulk eraser to be sure. 720K drives are tough to find. I'm going to try the strange Teac model and dumb it down to a 720. Explain the drives on the JX - I thought those were 720 3.5 inch drives. Are the SA465 and Teac 55F 5.25 or 3.5" drives? Yes, the Qume 142s suck. Besides being slow mechanically they are not much better than the old full height Tandons - just different glitches. The drive rails always seem to get sticky, and they are noisy little A#@$@.. :-) Mike From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jul 5 20:00:26 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:00:26 -0400 Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Jul 2005 22:37:28 BST." <008701c581a9$bef7e3a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <200507060100.j6610QHx002445@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jim Beacon" wrote: >There are a couple of XXDP images available on the web, so you could build >an XXDP test that will boot from the TU58 emulator, and test the RX02 that >way. Just curious, are there any XXDP images of rx50 floppies? (go ahead, laugh) I thought it would a short path to formatting an ST-2xx drive as an RD31 via ZRQCH0.BIN... -brad From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Jul 5 20:17:35 2005 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:17:35 -0400 Subject: Stock IBM XT low level format program wanted [solution] Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050705211111.03246d48@mail.degnanco.net> >I am currently in the process of doing the low level format on an IBM XT with all original parts. This is the middle era >version with a Xebec/IBM harddrive controller (no dip switches), newer diskette drive, and an IBM 20 MB hard drive. . This worked: A:>Debug c/r - -I 322 c/r -I 321 c/r -O 322 0 c/r -I 321 c/r -O 320 04 c/r -O 320 00 c/r Note: This is the value for Drive C. Substitute 20 if formatting Drive D. -O 320 00 c/r -O 320 00 c/r -O 320 05 c/r -O 320 07 c/r Note: Before you hit this carriage return, be sure you have typed the correct value shown in the previous note for drive C or D. Drive light should come on at this point and the controller will begin doing a low-level format on the drive. [It takes quite a while, a good time to re-watch Lord of the Rings...] When the drive has been formatted, the drive select light will go out and you will be returned to the - prompt. -I 321 c/r -I 320 c/r -Q And you should now be back at the DOS prompt. At this point you should enter FDISK, set the partition, and perform your high level format. [thanks Marvin Johnson and http://www.uncreativelabs.net/textfiles/drives/XEBEC.DOC From news at computercollector.com Tue Jul 5 21:19:10 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:19:10 -0400 Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BA7@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200507060224.j662OIGq067327@keith.ezwind.net> In reply to the seller's form letter, which didn't address any of the concerns about the computer, I asked the seller WHY he didn't address the concerns or send personal replies. His reply to that: "Yes, I sent the same for reply to all the messages I missed here in the ebay box. I am not sure I see the need to send different ones to each person." Oh, how nice of him! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James Fogg Sent: Monday, July 04, 2005 8:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" > -----Original Message----- > Another fine example of why I can't stand eBay. It's not Ebay, it's humans. Ebay is just an excellent vehicle for the worst human traits. I can't stand humans. ---- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't. From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jul 5 21:17:27 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:17:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > This is my point. Pat doesn't think an IBM 360 would sell for, say, as > much as $50K. I do not think an S/360 processor would hit $10K, personally. On Ebay a few years back, an IBM 650 only hit $5K. IBM stuff just doesn't have the prestige. > I agree with him that it may not attract the same sort of > frenzy that a PDP-1 would (it's a different dynamic with IBM old iron > collectors) but considering that they are probably more rare than PDP-1's You must know of many PDP-1s that we do not, because I can think of roughly ten S/360 processors still around. All but one are in museums. And of course, S/370s are rarer that S/360s for some dumb reason. And S/370 clones are rarer than Blue S/370s. > (which is ironic considering the IBM 360 sold in the thousands(?) and the > PDP-1 had a run of 50) I do not have the figures handy, but I think about 2400 S/360 processors were made. Over 1000 were model 30s. > if one did show up, and it was as complete the > recent PDP-8 sale, then there would be a bidding frenzy like you wouldn't > believe. I doubt a complete S/360 system would pop up (but who knows!). By their nature, pieces were upgraded over time, resulting in systems with parts spanning 20 years of production. DASDs (disks) were some of the first things to go. I would venture to say that old IBM disks (1311/2311, 2316, 3330 and the like) are probably rarer than the processors. Also, a complete S/360 installation, even a small one, would still be quite large compared to a PDP-1. An S/360 mod 20 is the smallest, but it isn't a real machine anyway. > I suspected the PDP-8 could fetch as high as $25K, and I still think this > is a valid number. Bill Maddox actually got one hell of a deal. A PDP-1 > equipped in an equivalent manner would surely fetch at least $25K, and so > would the equivalent IBM 360 system (maybe a decked out 360/20). I do not think 20s were common, because they were bastards replaced by S/3s very shortly after introduced (there are still S/3s out there - one still in production). The 30s were the common model. 20s also do not have very nice panels - nearly nothing, actually. Odd machine. > I'd be interested in knowing of any complete IBM 360's out in the wild > (i.e. not already in museums). The only one I know of is the ex-Stumf model 22 processor, and I do not know where that went. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jul 5 21:19:22 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:19:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507052212.PAA23422@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > You have to remember, that machine was in the lease > days of IBM. They took back their old machines and > flattened them in a wreaking yard down at Santa Maria. > I used to look for things like blocks of core memory > there. Many died here as well. The scrapyard I throw my metal in Po city junked oodles of IBMs over the years. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jul 5 21:24:38 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:24:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507050114.07320.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > A Model 30 would likely produce nowhere near as much > interest as a Model 91 I doubt that. A model 91 would be too much of a handfull for even most museums. A 30 or 40 would probably be THE machine to have. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Jul 5 21:40:43 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 19:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050706024043.62322.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> --- William Donzelli wrote: > On Ebay a few years back, an IBM 650 only hit $5K. > IBM stuff just doesn't > have the prestige. Wow! Was it complete? Did anyone save any pictures from the listing? > You must know of many PDP-1s that we do not, because > I can think of > roughly ten S/360 processors still around. All but > one are in museums. To the best of my knowledge, there are only three PDP-1s still in existence, all of which are in the collection of the Computer History Museum, although one is on loan elsewhere. That would indeed make the PDP-1 more rare, though it is amazing that so few S/360s survive. There are probably bits and pieces of them still rotting in scrapyards, however. Apparently, a bunch of them running the FAA ATC system were retired in recent memory -- as I recall, William Donzelli knows more about this and may have something to add. --Bill From fernande at internet1.net Tue Jul 5 22:22:53 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 23:22:53 -0400 Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <200507060224.j662OIGq067327@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507060224.j662OIGq067327@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <42CB4E8D.5040609@internet1.net> He's replying after the auction. I wouldn't send individual replies to a bunch of people after the auction either. Most people ask questions so they know if they want to bid, or how much too bid..... after the auction it's a moot point. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > In reply to the seller's form letter, which didn't address any of the > concerns about the computer, I asked the seller WHY he didn't address the > concerns or send personal replies. His reply to that: "Yes, I sent the same > for reply to all the messages I missed here in the ebay box. I am not sure I > see the need to send different ones to each person." > > Oh, how nice of him! From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jul 5 22:24:01 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 22:24:01 -0500 Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost In-Reply-To: <200507060100.j6610QHx002445@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200507060100.j6610QHx002445@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <42CB4ED1.1070403@mdrconsult.com> Brad Parker wrote: > Just curious, are there any XXDP images of rx50 floppies? > > (go ahead, laugh) Not laughing. As a matter of fact, I have some RX02 floppy disks with DEC labels, indicating that they were XXDP distribution disks. Until the company that gave them to me bulk-erased them.... > I thought it would a short path to formatting an ST-2xx drive as an RD31 > via ZRQCH0.BIN... There's a web page that details using SIMH and the available RL02 XXPD images to extract an RX50-based ZRQCH0. I'm not at the computer where it's bookmarked, but I will be later tonight. Or, I also have a standalone ZRQCH0 that boots from VTserver, if you wanted to go that route. By the way, I haven't been able to get in touch with Jonathan Engdahl, but if he's reading this, "Thanks!" For the XXDP directions *and* the DS500-to-PDP-11/53 howto. They both work wonderfully! Doc From mcesari at comcast.net Tue Jul 5 22:31:11 2005 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:31:11 -0600 Subject: 11/45, sick or not? In-Reply-To: <001001c581c3$f596e540$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <3.0.6.32.20050705202705.00a69100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <001001c581c3$f596e540$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <7C779B64-3E5C-4477-BCF0-4576205BFAEE@comcast.net> On Jul 5, 2005, at 6:45 PM, Jay West wrote: > Joe wrote... > >> Are you sure that the lights aren't blinking too fast to see? >> Perhaps you >> can hang a logic probe (with a pulse extender) on one of the >> lights to be >> sure. >> > > I'll try that tomorrow... but I wouldn't think that is what is > happening. Also, pardon my lack of knowledge, but... shouldn't I be > seeing the .2v ripple as an AC component (ie. a sine wave)? It's a > very clear perfect sawtooth. And it's exactly the same on all the > 5V regulators, which strikes me as odd. > > Jay > The sawtooth is correct for h744's. 0.2v is a bit much, but shouldn't be a show-stopper. The 11/70 maint. manual has a decent description of the h744 on pages 4-59 thru 4-62 (EK-11070- MM-002_May79.pdf on bitsavers). It says the voltage should range from 4.95v - 5.05v. (The description in the 11/45 manual isn't as good.) Also check for high frequency spikes at the valleys of the sawtooth, for example: 5v_ /\ /\ ... If these are more than 2 volts (go below 3v), you will have "issues". / \/ \/ Welcome to the wonderful world of aged DEC switching supplies =:O | | 3v_ | | Ascii art, feh. Put up some pics of the `scope display. :-) Mike From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Jul 5 22:37:21 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:37:21 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> <42C97946.2080006@mdrconsult.com> <42C97E08.50404@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20050705223721.2f08d50e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 4 Jul 2005 13:43:54 -0500 "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" wrote: > As I said, loosing one bid out of millions is not my worry. I might > just as likely lose a bid because someone was looking 10 minutes > BEFORE I got it listed. But I cant worry over that one either!!!! > Its just a matter of sliding the window one way or the other. I wont > spend my time trying to satisfy one bidder in millions. > > As to how you would recognise my auction, a I said earlier, I tell you > up front that I will do that. Its no surprise. If you see my ad you > will be able to bid on it and you will see that I plan on changing it > if no one bids. > > Also, if you dont know enough to know you are interested to the extent > of the value of a minimum bid of $1, then I surely dont think you > will change your mind 20 minutes before the auction ends. So I wont > miss you. Go ahead and bit $1 and if you end up with it you rot a > bargain...or at least if you dont want the item you can send me the $1 > and I wont ship it to save you the shipping cost. > > In a real auction you would have to register, give a credit card > number or deposit check and get a number before you were allowed to > place the first bid!!! *BZZZT!!! I go to a LOT of real auctions. Usually I find I am able to register, bid on items, and carry them to my car and load them without paying or leaving anything but an address up front. I pay at the end, usually after everything is loaded in the car. This is at 'for real' auctions, often enough out in the country, which I assume is what you're talking about. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 5 22:34:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > On Ebay a few years back, an IBM 650 only hit $5K. IBM stuff just doesn't > have the prestige. An IBM 650 showed up on eBay? And it sold for only $5K?? Wow. > You must know of many PDP-1s that we do not, because I can think of > roughly ten S/360 processors still around. All but one are in museums. The Computer History Museum has three PDP-1's (including the original prototype). I thought there was one at a university in the Netherlands, but I can't find a reference currently. > > I'd be interested in knowing of any complete IBM 360's out in the wild > > (i.e. not already in museums). > > The only one I know of is the ex-Stumf model 22 processor, and I do not > know where that went. Thanks for the info. I think you're more right than me about the 360s. For some reason, people tend to pay more attention to DEC stuff. And I think the size issue, as you explained, is probably the key reason why. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 5 22:38:14 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 20:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <42CB4E8D.5040609@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, C Fernandez wrote: > He's replying after the auction. I wouldn't send individual replies to > a bunch of people after the auction either. Most people ask questions > so they know if they want to bid, or how much too bid..... after the > auction it's a moot point. A lot of people asked some good questions, like, "Why didn't you open up the box to find out if it really was an Apple-1?" No sane person who knows anything about the Apple 1 and Apple ][ would've passed up the opportunity to find out this information. Even the most dim-witted person would've had an inkling that he ought to check. This guy just skirted around the issue, and not cleverly I might add. I think the reason why this pisses me off is because I (and I'm sure I'm not alone here) hate idiot hucksters like this guy. I guess I should be more angry with the idiot sucker who fell for this and bid $2,550 on a plywood box with a keyboard. It's bad for the hobby on both ends. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rsnats at bellsouth.net Tue Jul 5 22:48:11 2005 From: rsnats at bellsouth.net (xyz) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 22:48:11 -0500 Subject: upp 103 on ebay References: <200507052238.PAA23428@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <00b401c581dd$a2e29140$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> I have a UPP103, Does anyone have the 1702A personality card (or others) that they would be willing to part with? Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 5:38 PM Subject: upp 103 on ebay > Hi > Wow! there is a UPP103 on ebay that is already > over $400. It doesn't even have any personality > cards in it. I hope that the people bidding on > it realize that it won't program anything, listed > by the seller, without the right personality card! > Being that these have 4001's on them, not many > could make such a card. > Dwight > > > From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 5 23:12:41 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > Ouch. The normal method of dismantling is to undo the screws, then filp > the catridge over (metal plate on the bottom) and lift off the cover. > > To reassemble, the easiest way I've found is as follows : > > Put the full spool on its spindle > > Add the drive 'puck' (that's the term I've seen in all the manuals), the > belt and the 2 idler rollers at the front of the cartridige > > Put the empty spool on its spindle, then bring the belt round it with > something like a cocktail stick. > > Run the tape round the guids and put the end between the belt and the > empty spool. Now start turning the drive puck by hand to run the tape > onto the spool (it is gripped by the belt). Give it about 5 turns round > the spool, then turn the 2 spools in opposite directions to tension the > tape. > > Fit the door and its spring. IIRC you can put the spring into the door, > hook it into a little slot to hold it tenssioned, then drop the assembly > over the pivot pin and then flick the end of the spring to release it. Well, I finally got around to attempting to re-spool this stupidly designed tape. Your description sounds like a different tape than what I was dealing with. The tape did not come off of either spool but was instead attached onto both spools. At any rate, the stupid tensioning belt (whatever its called) broke on me. Oh well, fuck that tape. I'll try to read it anyway (is the tensioning belt necessary?) I also noticed numerous spots on the the tape where the oxide had flaked off, so any re-attempt may well be futile. Whoever designed these tapes is a moron. I can't imagine how impossibly expensive it must've been to manufacture them. I hate computers. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 5 23:27:30 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > At any rate, the stupid tensioning belt (whatever its called) broke on me. > Oh well, fuck that tape. I'll try to read it anyway (is the tensioning > belt necessary?) Answer: yes, the belt is necessary, because otherwise the tape cannot move in either direction. Wow, what a great design! Kudos to the idiot that invented it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Jul 5 23:33:57 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > For some reason, people tend to pay more attention > to DEC stuff. And I > think the size issue, as you explained, is probably > the key reason why. Size is probably a big issue, but DEC made some big machines and IBM made some small ones, and the DEC boxes still seem to get more attention from collectors. I think that the relative availability of DEC hardware, software, and documentation simply makes the DEC machines more practical if one's interest is in restoring and running them. That would explain the 8's and 11's anyway. It's frustrating how little of the older non-DEC minicomputer material seems to be available. --Bill From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jul 5 23:44:20 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 23:44:20 -0500 Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost In-Reply-To: <200507060100.j6610QHx002445@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200507060100.j6610QHx002445@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <42CB61A4.8020409@mdrconsult.com> Brad Parker wrote: > "Jim Beacon" wrote: > >>There are a couple of XXDP images available on the web, so you could build >>an XXDP test that will boot from the TU58 emulator, and test the RX02 that >>way. > > > Just curious, are there any XXDP images of rx50 floppies? Here's that link: http://www.ba23.org//page0204.html#xxdprx50 I haven't tried this yet, but it looks sound. I will be trying it out "next chance I get", but the phone call I just got means that may be several weeks. :( Doc From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jul 5 23:42:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, William Maddox wrote: > Size is probably a big issue, but DEC made some big machines and IBM > made some small ones, and the DEC boxes still seem to get more attention > from collectors. I think that the relative availability of DEC hardware, > software, and documentation simply makes the DEC machines more practical > if one's interest is in restoring and running them. That would explain > the 8's and 11's anyway. It's frustrating how little of the older > non-DEC minicomputer material seems to be available. Well, actually, the reason is clear. In the old days, IBM was stupid and didn't want anyone to learn about their computers. They kept them locked up behind glass walls where one could only drool over them, and only let priveleged people touch them. So in general, most IBM computers (i.e. not the 1620 or 1130) were off-limits, and thus there is relatively little hacking experience for people today who are older and richer and want to reiminisce to draw upon and drive interest in IBM machines. DEC, on the other hand, fully understood the hacking instinct. They made machines that were meant to be touched, programmed, and hacked. From their very first models they made them open and friendly and approachable and PERSONAL. Most people today who went to college from the early 1960s onwards probably had access to DEC machines and learned to love them as they touched and prodded them and flipped their switches and hacked on them all night. So that experience remains with them and today that is what they seek. So that's why a DEC PDP-1 will always have much more appeal than a gray thing that IBM created. IBM wanted to keep computers away from the masses, to keep them in the hands of the "priveleged", and their reward was to be able to continue to dominate the market to this day. DEC wanted computers to be free and for people to use them. Their reward was to be sucked up, torn apart and destroyed by a lesser company whose origins was in making clones of IBM's computers. How ironic. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Jul 5 23:56:56 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:56:56 +0800 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 7/6/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > IBM wanted to keep computers away from the masses, to keep them in the > hands of the "priveleged", and their reward was to be able to continue to > dominate the market to this day. DEC wanted computers to be free and for > people to use them. Their reward was to be sucked up, torn apart and > destroyed by a lesser company whose origins was in making clones of IBM's > computers. *Damn* you're making me all teary eyed.. *sob* /wai-sun From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jul 6 00:24:05 2005 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 01:24:05 -0400 Subject: any NeWS software still around? In-Reply-To: <538992fb7389bea4fd2367d859104301@valleyimplants.com> (Scott Quinn's message of "Mon, 4 Jul 2005 12:19:37 -0700") References: <200507041607.j64G56As004839@dewey.classiccmp.org> <538992fb7389bea4fd2367d859104301@valleyimplants.com> Message-ID: <0qekacbj7u.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Scott Quinn writes: > I've been doing some poking around to find software that runs on the > NeWS window system, without much luck (most of what I found was > confined to Sun demo binaries) Does anyone know of any archives of > NeWS sources? I heard reference to something called > GreatNeWS/HyperNeWS but wasn't able to find it either. I know NeWS is > somewhat out of favor, but it would be nice to have my IRIS do > something other than text-mode apps on 4Sight. You could try to find and ask the fabulous Don Hopkins. I think he's involved with http://www.connected.tv/ so you could try phoning/emailing them and asking to have a message passed on. He was part of the NeWS dev team at Sun. (He also invented the pie menu, did the UI for The Sims, and lots of other cool and noteworthy things. ) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 00:51:07 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 00:51:07 -0500 Subject: Trying to identify a Motorola part from a grab bag Message-ID: I have a small handful of these parts with a Motorola 'M' on them. They are 3-legged, seeming to be a transistor or similar device (I don't think they are voltage regulators). The case is plastic, smaller than a 78M05 (T220?), especially since the metal thermal transfer patch is integral to the body (not sticking up above the epoxy like on a 78M05). The markings are... R927 S AC823 I can't seem to find anything reasonable by googling Motorola and either R927 or AC823. Does this sound familiar to anyone here? Thanks, -ethan From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jul 6 01:24:14 2005 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 02:24:14 -0400 Subject: second call, storage cleanup in boston Message-ID: <0q8y0kbgfl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Hi All-- an update on my storage cleanup. I have a lot of CRTs set for recycling pickup come friday; speak now or never... items on the pile: # 3 DEC 21" mono monitor fixed frequency, for a decstation 5000/120 (PMAG-A, I think). # 1 RasterOps 21" Monitor fixed frequency, 1024x768. connector: 5 bnc. sony made trinitron tube. slightly fuzzy focus, sometimes loses horizontal hold; probably loose connection/solder joint. good to fix up or for gaming. # 1 Hitachi 19" fixed freq color monitor, BNC's on the back, this model was commonly used on Sun-3 systems. # 1 IBM 15" color vga monitor # 1 15" mono vga monitor # 1 Canon Canofile 250 document management station # 1 Sun SparcStation ELC I also may dump most of the remaining DEC VR-262 monitors, and the remaining pair of big fixed freq trinitrons, since I don't know how much longer my town will take crt's, and I could really use the space. I'd love a few more takers for decstation 2100's, vaxstation 3100's, and sparcstation 1's. Full list at http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~bressen/2005-05-too-much-stuff/stuff.html Der Mouse, your MTA doesn't like my identd. It looks 1413 compliant to me... Keith Boston, waiting to hear back from you. John Allain, haven't heard back in a while, I'm assuming you are no longer interested. Other folks, don't worry, I haven't forgotton you. --cheers --akb From GOOI at oce.nl Wed Jul 6 01:56:02 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 08:56:02 +0200 Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D5F@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi Jerry, swap the M8639-YA and the M8029 for starters! The M8639-YA is the RQDX1 and is the famous board that does NOT pass NPR/grant. It is even stated in the Field Guide that the RQDX1 must be the last board in the chain... gd luck, - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of g-wright Sent: dinsdag 5 juli 2005 19:29 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost Hi, I'm trying to get one of my 11-23's going and finally got around to setting up a TU58 emulator. got it to boot RT-11 and now trying to get a RX-02 working. I have 3 controllers and 3 sets of RX-02's. All do the same thing. The just seems to not be able to find track 1 or Home or ??? The heads just keep going from home to maybe the first tack and back. The heads do load and the system tries quit a few times then pauses and tries again. It then errors on drive failure or read error directory not found, size function failed depends what I ask it to do. I have tried all of the boards and drives. all or them seem to do the same thing. I do not know how good the drives are but can't believe there all bad. I have recheck the switches in the RX-02 and the Jumpers on the cards. Cleaned the drives. tried different disks. Is there some kind of compatibility issue that i do not know about. Or do I have 6 dead drives. The system is a Micro PDP 11, 8 slot Rack mount, with 1 M8189 11-23+ 1 M8067 KB 256k Memory 1 M8639 YA MFM rx50 controller 1 M8029 RX-02 controller - in this order. Everything else seems to work. I added the floppy card but the rest is original. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jul 6 03:05:23 2005 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 04:05:23 -0400 Subject: Wang paper tape format? In-Reply-To: <20050625164300.0FCAF97C6B@pail.bensene.com> (Rick Bensene's message of "Sat, 25 Jun 2005 09:47:02 -0700") References: <20050625164300.0FCAF97C6B@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <0q3bqsbbr0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Sellam, if you are still working that Wang tape, and think it had something to do with a Flexo, check YahooGroups for the Fridenites group; it's a Friden alums list. The inestimable Stan Kelly-Bootle turned me on to it. Flexos could be set up with pretty much any encoding desired within the limit of the number of channels supported by the model. Some of the custom hacks for various OEM's got pretty elaborate; the EDSAC I Friden reportedly managed to encode double-case with 5 channels, an awful lot of state for a mechanical device to keep track of. Does the tape in question have enough bits to be a document of substantial size? I find myself thinking about IBM's printer control paper tapes, and wondering if what you have is not so much a document as the control instructions for printing a certain document, or the numbers or other info that were supposed to be merged into a document when printed... From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 6 05:04:20 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 03:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF Midwest 1.0 and VCF 8.0 exhibitors - sign up now! Message-ID: We've got the first two registered exhibitors for VCF 8.0: http://www.vintage.org/2005/main/exhibit.php But in the meantime, we still need plenty more exhibitors for VCF Midwest 1.0. You midwesterners are letting Pat down in a serious way! Pat has poured his heart and soul into this event and so far you folks aren't responding in kind. Let's see at least half a dozen people sign up as exhibitors this week! Time is running out... http://www.vintage.org/2005/midwest/exhibit.php Do it for the children! ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 05:18:00 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 11:18:00 +0100 Subject: DEC stuff on ebay (UK) In-Reply-To: <000001c581a9$0887c9a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <1120597093.11910.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <000001c581a9$0887c9a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <26c11a6405070603185d40bad1@mail.gmail.com> > > A MicroVAX 3100 of some sort, comes with tapes, some of which could do > with imaging: > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5786946507&rd=1&ssp > agename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 > > I've put a bid on these, they are located in the next street down from me, I am going to take a look at them this week. I'll let you know what's there, I was only really looking at the software and backup tapes. Dan From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Jul 6 05:18:03 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 06:18:03 -0400 Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Jul 2005 23:44:20 CDT." <42CB61A4.8020409@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200507061018.j66AI38G023652@mwave.heeltoe.com> Doc Shipley wrote: >> >> Just curious, are there any XXDP images of rx50 floppies? > > Here's that link: > >http://www.ba23.org//page0204.html#xxdprx50 > Thanks. That web site is a good recipe, but i'm lazy and was hoping for the actual rx50 image files. I'll try it too - someone should post the resulting image files... (it would also be nice to see the "bin/simhxxdp" script, showing how *completely* lazy I am) -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Jul 6 05:26:01 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 06:26:01 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Jul 2005 21:42:28 PDT." Message-ID: <200507061026.j66AQ11B023960@mwave.heeltoe.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >In the old days, IBM was stupid and didn't want anyone to learn about >their computers. They kept them locked up behind glass walls where one >could only drool over them, and only let priveleged people touch them. So My experience is the S/360 & 370's machines ran 24x7 and there was little time left over for hacking. But if you got to be friends with the operators and read all the manuals and what source code you could find, you could do some pretty fun hacks. I used to submit jobs into the dos/vs job queue and view source code on cics terminals long before I saw commercial support for the such things. I did it by hacking during nights and weekends when the operator would let me try a few experimental things (and didn't mind if it brought the whole thing down). The DEC machines (in my experience) were often not in a 24x7 enviroment and often in educational settings where bringing down the system was not such a huge deal. Obviously there are exceptions to both sides of this. it's just my experience... (I remember seeing a lonely pdp-8 with a DF-32 sitting in the corner of a CAD lab and someone said - "yea, have at it - see if you can get it to boot". no one ever said that about a S/360 :-) -brad From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jul 6 07:44:35 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 07:44:35 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050706074209.05723d08@mail> At 11:33 PM 7/5/2005, William Maddox wrote: >I think that the relative availability of >DEC hardware, software, and documentation simply makes >the DEC machines more practical if one's interest is >in restoring and running them. I think it's because more people were exposed to DEC equipment early in their educational life - high school and college - and therefore imprinted affectionate memories. Baby duck syndrome. You might as well ask which album is their favorite. - John From hachti at hachti.de Wed Jul 6 07:54:59 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:54:59 +0200 Subject: Need help with a 11-23+ and a RX-02 , Repost In-Reply-To: <200507060100.j6610QHx002445@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200507060100.j6610QHx002445@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <42CBD4A3.4070700@hachti.de> >>There are a couple of XXDP images available on the web, so you could build >>an XXDP test that will boot from the TU58 emulator, and test the RX02 that >>way. > > Just curious, are there any XXDP images of rx50 floppies? I used E11 and simh to run the xxdp images I found somewhere on the net (bitsavers?). Then I first made a virtual RX02 diskette and made it bootable. Then I made a second virtual RX02 diskette with the programs I wanted. After having the images ready I transferred them to the original diskette using vtserver. The same way I made my RT11 floppies.... From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jul 6 08:08:16 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:08:16 -0400 Subject: 11/45, sick or not? References: <004101c581b6$6ecce580$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.32.20050705202705.00a69100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <17099.55232.941857.305235@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: Joe> Are you sure that the lights aren't blinking too fast to see? Joe> Perhaps you can hang a logic probe (with a pulse extender) on Joe> one of the lights to be sure. An easy way to check that out: replace the "rol r0" by an "inc r0". That way r0 will cycle through all 65536 values, and you should easily see that in the lights. If that doesn't help, try replacing the reset with a "mov r0, @#177570" (010037 177570, and of course the branch becomes 000774). Then the incrementing pattern should show when the Display register is selected. paul From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jul 6 08:02:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 09:02:04 -0400 Subject: upp 103 on ebay In-Reply-To: <00b401c581dd$a2e29140$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> References: <200507052238.PAA23428@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050706090204.00959ab0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Yes and No. Joe At 10:48 PM 7/5/05 -0500, you wrote: >I have a UPP103, Does anyone have the 1702A personality card (or others) >that they would be willing to part with? > >Bob >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 5:38 PM >Subject: upp 103 on ebay > > >> Hi >> Wow! there is a UPP103 on ebay that is already >> over $400. It doesn't even have any personality >> cards in it. I hope that the people bidding on >> it realize that it won't program anything, listed >> by the seller, without the right personality card! >> Being that these have 4001's on them, not many >> could make such a card. >> Dwight >> >> >> > > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jul 6 08:23:01 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:23:01 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: <200507061026.j66AQ11B023960@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <17099.56117.644891.682526@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Brad" == Brad Parker writes: Brad> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> In the old days, IBM was stupid and didn't want anyone to learn >> about their computers. They kept them locked up behind glass >> walls where one could only drool over them, and only let >> priveleged people touch them. So Brad> My experience is the S/360 & 370's machines ran 24x7 and there Brad> was little time left over for hacking. But if you got to be Brad> friends with the operators and read all the manuals and what Brad> source code you could find, you could do some pretty fun hacks. I've had some operator time in college on a 360 model 44 (running OS/PCP, which was unusual since most 44s ran an OS specific to that machine -- it didn't normally have a full 360 instruction set). It belonged to a nearby grad school, and didn't run anywhere near 24x7. So powering it on and off was part of the experience. I had some fun hacks on it. The console wasn't considered a normal I/O device (it had no name so programs couldn't reference it in the usual way). But if you constructed a few of the relevant data structures "by hand" you could read/write it just fine. So I messed up all the UI conventions by doing exactly that. The other hack was a switch into supervisor mode from my application (the WATFOR compiler, actually...) to install a patch into the kernel to capture an interrupt (some operator panel button). It was really easy, quite obvious from reading the manuals. I found out later in grad school that the same security bug was still around in OS/MVS 21.x. Didn't use it there (verified it existed but resisted the temptation to exploit it). Lastly, there was the 360 program for reading and printing PDP-11 DOS formatted tapes... including search by name, something OS/360 could not do even for native tapes... I wish I still had that program, but no such luck, not even a listing. So yes, you could hack those machines if they weren't too large and you were in the right spot. But I'll agree that I'd grab a PDP-11 way before I'd be tempted by a 360. paul From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jul 6 08:40:35 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > An IBM 650 showed up on eBay? And it sold for only $5K?? > > Wow. Two bidders. It ended up on a well known collection. > Thanks for the info. I think you're more right than me about the 360s. > For some reason, people tend to pay more attention to DEC stuff. And I > think the size issue, as you explained, is probably the key reason why. Size matters when collecting anything. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jul 6 08:45:06 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 09:45:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706024043.62322.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Wow! Was it complete? Did anyone save any pictures > from the listing? No, but the machine is in a well known collection (he may lurk here). > There are probably bits and pieces of > them still rotting in scrapyards, however. Apparently, > a bunch of them running the FAA ATC system were > retired in recent memory Quite a few years ago, now. They are long gone. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Jul 6 09:19:01 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 09:19:01 -0500 Subject: 11/45, sick or not? In-Reply-To: <004101c581b6$6ecce580$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050706091831.0245d718@mail.ubanproductions.com> Jay, Have you single stepped through the program to see if it is doing what you expect it to? --tom At 06:08 PM 7/5/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I finally allocated another day to spend on the 11/45. Unfortunately, I >must say I'm not sure if it's sick or not, hopefully someone can help. > >First, none of the blinking lights programs I've seen blink the lights. I >can store and retrieve the program correctly, but when I put 1000 on the >switches and hit load address then run, it goes into run mode but no >lights blink (with any display switch setting). Halt makes the processor >halt. Here's what I did: > >1000 005000 start: clr r0 >1002 005200 inc r0 >1004 006100 loop: rol r0 >1006 000005 reset >1010 000775 br loop > >On this program I put 1000 in the switches, hit load address, then run. >Address lights constantly show 1010, Data lights are blank, and the Run >light is on. Data Paths setting shows 0, bus register setting shows 5, >uaddr shows 177774. > >Another test... if I store a 5007 (clr pc) in location 0 and start the >processor at location 0, the address lights show all 0's, the data lights >show 2, and the following lights are lit - pause, master, kernel. I also >tried this with location 0 set to 777 (br .) and get the exact same results. > >More info... just after power up, the address lights show 20, the data >lights show 21043 (data paths). Master & Kernel are on. The uaddress >setting shows 177570. > >So... I decided to go back to basics and check all the power points at the >pins on the backplane. Here's what I found: >A02A2 0 >A06A2 4.931 >A10A1 4.931 >A26A2 4.931 >A19A2 0 >A16A2 0 >A21A2 0 >E02B2 -15 >A17V2 0 >A22V2 0 >A17U2 0 >A22U2 0 >F17C1 0 >E15A1 16 >E01B1 9 > >Since my machine only has regulators at B, C, D, E, and F, I suspect the 0 >volt readings above are ok. All the 5 volt test points have a very clear >.2v sawtooth pattern (which looks fairly smooth at 5v). Since one manual >says the ripple limit is .15, and another manual says the ripple limit is >.20, I suspect I'm ok there. The ripple on -15, 16, and 9 I can't see any >noticeable. > >And by the way... the cpu cardset was borrowed from another listmember and >tested before I received it so I don't think it's something wrong with the >cpu cardset itself. > >Any thoughts? > >Jay West > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jul 6 09:22:46 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 10:22:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: second call, storage cleanup in boston In-Reply-To: <0q8y0kbgfl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0q8y0kbgfl.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <200507061433.KAA25186@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Der Mouse, your MTA doesn't like my identd. > It looks 1413 compliant to me... You don't include details. I looked at the headers of your list message, and saw > Received: from keith.ezwind.net (keith.ezwind.net [209.145.140.15]) > by dewey.classiccmp.org (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j666ODxC024100 > for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 01:24:13 -0500 (CDT) > (envelope-from akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to) > Received: from lanconius.mirror.to (ident5 at lanconius.mirror.to [66.92.72.194]) > by keith.ezwind.net (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id j666XSHg068962 > for ; Wed, 6 Jul 2005 01:33:29 -0500 (CDT) > (envelope-from akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to) > Received: from lanconius.mirror.to (bressen at localhost [127.0.0.1]) > From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) I searched my logs (yesterday's, and today's so far) for 209.145.140.15, 66.92.72.194, akb, ident5, and bressen. None of these turned up any hits at all. Without more information I can't say much. What IP would I have seen the connection come from? When did the connection occur (please include timezone, or specify UTC, or some such)? What was the identd response? Something like that - enough for me to dig up the relevant log entries and find out what happened. Most often, the error I assume you got ("perhaps you're still using [an identd] written to RFC 931 syntax even though RFC 1413 obsoleted 931 over a decade ago?") means the identd returns a response that claims to be a UNIX username but which includes a space in the username (a real example from today's log: "12902 , 25 : USERID : UNIX : fwuser"). Under 931, that would be the username "fwuser"; under 1413, " fwuser". /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Fri Jul 1 23:03:17 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:03:17 -0500 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050701110341.0524ba00@mail> Message-ID: <200507020412.j624C3t0027947@keith.ezwind.net> For a while I did some buying of stuff on eBay to jump-start our museum. One thing I learned is to look at the feedback score of a seller. Anything less than 99% should be a huge red flag unless the seller has only a few deals, in which case one misunderstanding can kill the number. 255 transactions is enough to get a good picture. < 98%. Run, don't walk, to the nearest exit. At the very least this guy is going to be argumentative. Also note that not a single one of those negatives was resolved satisfactorily. HTH, Gil Please note changed email address: gcarrick at uta.edu A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE Coach - ICPC Programming Team University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Fri Jul 1 23:12:50 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2005 23:12:50 -0500 Subject: Problems using VG PROM/RAM in 8800b In-Reply-To: <002c01c57e74$4bd69f70$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <200507020421.j624LZxg027993@keith.ezwind.net> I have two 8800b's and a smattering of S-100 boards. Let me know if you don't get any feedback & we will see if we can work something out. For some reason we have a pile of S-100 machines. We are in Arlington, TX if you or any others are in the neighborhood, please drop by. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE Coach - ICPC Programming Team University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini > Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 2:37 PM > To: CCTalk > Subject: Problems using VG PROM/RAM in 8800b > > All: > > I want to get the Turnkey Monitor running on my 8800b. > I have a VG PROM/RAM board (which has 1k of RAM and an EPROM > programmer) and some 2716 EPROMS. I made an adapter so I can > use 2716 chips in the 2708 sockets. So far, so good. > > I configured the board for $C000, no RAM and all other > jumpers per the default for the board with the following exceptions: > > (1) "Use PRESET or POC for power-on/reset jump" The > defaultis for the POC signal to be connected to the reset > circuitry on the VG PROM board. > The other jumper option is to connect PRESET to the reset > circuit on the VG PROM board. This is now set for the PRESET > line to be connected to the board's POR circuit. I don't have > a schematic so I don't know what this is doing exactly. > > (2) "Phantom generated if power-on/reset" This disables > other memory boards on reset so it can respond to the CPU > reset jump to location 0 (making the board an auto-start > board). I cut this jumper. > > (3) "Jump to PROM/RAM board if power-on/reset" This > causes the board to respond to the CPU jump to location 0 on > RESET. I set this jumper to the equivalent of disable. > > With this configuration, I can't EXAMINE or DEPOSIT > to/from any location. When I remove the board, the Altair > responds normally, so it definitely is this board. > > Does anyone have any experience using this board in an > Altair (or other non-Vector) system? What's a working > configuration for this? Does anyone have a spare generic ROM > board I can buy/trade for? > > Thanks. > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: > http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ > > > From RCamarda at aol.com Sun Jul 3 00:16:28 2005 From: RCamarda at aol.com (RCamarda at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 01:16:28 EDT Subject: CCS 2422 Floppy Disk Controller Message-ID: Hi, I know this was an old posting I saw on the web. I just wondered if you still have the CCS 2422 controller. I have one and am in need of the U22 and U23 IC's or what is programmed into them I am also looking to buy another card in any condition. If you can be of help, I would really appreciate it! Thanks! Rich From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jul 4 05:28:35 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 11:28:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: KVM In-Reply-To: <20050704005704.003FB73029@linus.groomlake.area51> References: from "chris" at Jul 03, 2005 08:24:24 PM <20050704005704.003FB73029@linus.groomlake.area51> Message-ID: <12631.195.212.29.91.1120472915.squirrel@195.212.29.91> > It was thus said that the Great chris once stated: > few of the units with no problem, but the PS/2->serial mouse adaptors > won't > work through it---I've tried. Well rather, what didn't work was: > > PS/2 mouse -> KVM -> PS/2 cable -> serial adaptor -> computer > You must use a PS/2 mouse that actually came with a serial adaptor. Just any PS/2 mouse won't work. What happens is that the mouse detects on power-up whether or not it's plugged into a PS/2 port or a serial adaptor, and then starts sending stuff out in the appropriate mode. Gordon. From g-wright at att.net Mon Jul 4 16:45:56 2005 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Mon, 04 Jul 2005 21:45:56 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/23+ and rx-02 drives, need help!!! Message-ID: <070420052145.5217.42C9AE1300023A4F0000146121603760219B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi, I'm trying to get one of my 11-23's going and finally got around to setting up a TU58 emulator. got it to boot RT-11 and now trying to get a RX-02 working. I have 3 controllers and 3 sets of RX-02's. All do the same thing. The just seems to not be able to find track 1 or Home or ??? The heads just keep going from home to maybe the first tack and back. The heads do load and the system tries quit a few times then pauses and tries again. It then errors on drive failure or read error directory not found, size function failed depends what I ask it to do. I have tried all of the boards and drives. all or them seem to do the same thing. I do not know how good the drives are but can't believe there all bad. I have recheck the switches in the RX-02 and the Jumpers on the cards. Cleaned the drives. tried different disks. Is there some kind of compatibility issue that i do not know about. Or do I have 6 dead drives. The system is a Micro PDP 11, 8 slot Rack mount, with 1 M8189 1123+ 1 M8067 KB 256k Memory 1 M8639 YA MFM rx50 controller 1 M8029 RX-02 controller in this order. Everything else seems to work. I added the floppy card but the rest original. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc. From vrs at email.msn.com Mon Jul 4 16:59:47 2005 From: vrs at email.msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:59:47 -0700 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: <3.0.6.32.20050704173717.00a78100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: From: "Joe R." > Wow! Somebody really wanted that one! > me=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1? Seems reasonable to me. Wish I had the kind of money and room that would let me collect stuff like that. Vince From aek at spies.com Tue Jul 5 09:32:08 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 07:32:08 -0700 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 Message-ID: <378a99212423645222298d7788e6151d@spies.com> > $50k for an S/360 does seem too high, though Time to start looking.. I know a couple of people who would pay that for a 360/50 system, if one could be found. Most were chopped up when the price of gold was high in the '70s. From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Tue Jul 5 13:31:57 2005 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 19:31:57 +0100 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120588317.21300.3.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 08:01 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > How many PDP-1's have you seen around? How many IBM 360's? There are way > more PDP-1's known to still exist than IBM 360's, and there's only a > handful of PDP-1's left. The 360 also has a huge following of historical > nuts. I'm not sure I like being called historical. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From websupport at degnanco.com Tue Jul 5 13:46:01 2005 From: websupport at degnanco.com (Degnan Co.) Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:46:01 -0400 Subject: Stock IBM XT low level format program wanted Message-ID: I have an IBM XT with all original parts. This is the middle era version with a Xebec/IBM harddrive controller (no dip switches), newer diskette drive, and an IBM 20 MB hard drive. The computer boots with no errors. It looks like the computer was never used, it's pristine. Might anyone have a link to a program that I can use to run a low level format specific to this controller card and hard drive? I have had trouble locating the low level format program via DEBUG. I have found a number of Debug commands on the Internet for other drives and controllers, but none for this. I have searched the segement offsets between C000:0000 and EC00:0000 in 0400 increments. .Maybe I am blind! Is there an IBM official low level format diskette image out there? That would be preferred. Thanks...Bill -- E N D -- From thalunil at kallisti.de Tue Jul 5 17:43:00 2005 From: thalunil at kallisti.de (Alex Bihlmaier) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:43:00 +0200 Subject: Altair 8800 Layout Message-ID: <42CB0CF4.7000605@kallisti.de> Hi! I am searching for the layout of an old Altair 8800 home computer. A friend of mine is reading Steven Levys "Hackers" and is fascinated about the Altair 880 homebrew computer. I searched the net with google about this computer but i cannot find sth. useful. Anyone here with infos about the Altair 8800? grtx from germany, thalunil From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 6 02:00:41 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 00:00:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free 8" floppy drives, Washington DC area In-Reply-To: <42C9D400.nailIRJ1YCK3B@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <20050706070041.88511.qmail@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> if I wind up coming down there, it might be a good idea to forward me your telephone number. I can't swear I'll be able to, but it seems a shame if they all got chucked. Thanks. --- Tim Shoppa wrote: > I've still got many 8" floppy drives available for > free right > outside Washington DC. Will not ship, you must pick > up. Some > full-height, some half-height, some in desktop > enclosures with > power supplies and some in rack mount enclosures > with power supplies. > > If interested, drop me an e-mail at my non-list > address, > shoppa at trailing-edge.com. > > Also some misc ST506-type (MFM) hard drives, and an > 8" hard drive > with 50pin+20 pin interface (ST??? can't remember) > in an enclosure > with power supply. I think that 8" hard drive > worked with a Compupro > Disk2 controller when I last tried it (like a decade > ago) but I no longer > have the Disk2. > > Tim. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From news at computercollector.com Wed Jul 6 11:26:17 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:26:17 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: <200507020412.j624C3t0027947@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <200507061631.j66GVSsg074027@keith.ezwind.net> >>> 255 transactions is enough to get a good picture Good point. For example, I've got 29 transactions, with one negative. But in that user's feedback, anyone can see that he's just a big moron. (To my amusement, he even wrote in all caps, "SELLERS BEWARE!") Alas, my ranking is 96.7 percent. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Director Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2005 12:03 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' Subject: RE: Apple _1_ on ebay??? For a while I did some buying of stuff on eBay to jump-start our museum. One thing I learned is to look at the feedback score of a seller. Anything less than 99% should be a huge red flag unless the seller has only a few deals, in which case one misunderstanding can kill the number. 255 transactions is enough to get a good picture. < 98%. Run, don't walk, to the nearest exit. At the very least this guy is going to be argumentative. Also note that not a single one of those negatives was resolved satisfactorily. HTH, Gil Please note changed email address: gcarrick at uta.edu A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE Coach - ICPC Programming Team University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jul 6 12:02:09 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 10:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 11/45, sick or not? Message-ID: <200507061702.KAA23880@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jay West" > >Joe wrote... >> Are you sure that the lights aren't blinking too fast to see? Perhaps you >> can hang a logic probe (with a pulse extender) on one of the lights to be >> sure. > >I'll try that tomorrow... but I wouldn't think that is what is happening. >Also, pardon my lack of knowledge, but... shouldn't I be seeing the .2v >ripple as an AC component (ie. a sine wave)? It's a very clear perfect >sawtooth. And it's exactly the same on all the 5V regulators, which strikes >me as odd. > >Jay > > Hi Jay No, the ripple on a rectified filter will look like a saw tooth. If you look carefully, you'll see that the leading edge follows the AC while the trailing has a slight dip. This is normal. Dwight From roosmcd at dds.nl Wed Jul 6 12:05:34 2005 From: roosmcd at dds.nl (roosmcd at dds.nl) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:05:34 +0200 Subject: Fs/ft. Motorola Powerstack, the good-looking version (+ 8" floppydrive) In-Reply-To: <200507061623.j66GNNma031292@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507061623.j66GNNma031292@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1120669534.42cc0f5ed677a@webmail.dds.nl> Hello, No idea if it will really fit into the old category, but I'd consider this a classic computer. I've always wanted to have one for the case, but now I simply have too many :). The machine I'm talking about is a Motorola E-series, which looks like this machine (I found the picture via Google, it's not from mine): http://www.hudat.com/~florit/20030624-MotorolaPowerstack/Powerstack-ThreeQuartersView.JPG what I want to sell/trade, are two of the bottom units, with some memory (I think 32Mb, 72-pin) and a sled with cd-rom drive. No Hd's, but I have the OS (AIX 4.1.4 motorola verison, but it also runs NT, linux and solaris). Looking to trade for SGI stuff, Philips CD-i, laserdisc, 100V speakers or ??!?!. greetings, Michiel ps. I also have a nice 8" floppydrive in black external as/400 housing I'd be willing to trade for stuff. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jul 6 12:15:39 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 12:15:39 -0500 Subject: Fs/ft. Motorola Powerstack, the good-looking version (+ 8" floppydrive) In-Reply-To: <1120669534.42cc0f5ed677a@webmail.dds.nl> References: <200507061623.j66GNNma031292@dewey.classiccmp.org> <1120669534.42cc0f5ed677a@webmail.dds.nl> Message-ID: <42CC11BB.7090805@mdrconsult.com> roosmcd at dds.nl wrote: > Hello, > > No idea if it will really fit into the old category, but I'd consider this a > classic computer. I've always wanted to have one for the case, but now I simply > have too many :). The machine I'm talking about is a Motorola E-series, which > looks like this machine (I found the picture via Google, it's not from mine): > > http://www.hudat.com/~florit/20030624-MotorolaPowerstack/Powerstack-ThreeQuartersView.JPG > > what I want to sell/trade, are two of the bottom units, with some memory (I > think 32Mb, 72-pin) and a sled with cd-rom drive. No Hd's, but I have the OS > (AIX 4.1.4 motorola verison, but it also runs NT, linux and solaris). Looking to > trade for SGI stuff, Philips CD-i, laserdisc, 100V speakers or ??!?!. I'm guessing you're in the Netherlands? I'd love to have a copy of the Motorola AIX. I have a PowerStack that needs it. Any chance you could post a CD image somewhere, or upload it to my ftp server? Doc Shipley From spc at conman.org Wed Jul 6 12:22:21 2005 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 13:22:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KVM In-Reply-To: <12631.195.212.29.91.1120472915.squirrel@195.212.29.91> from "gordonjcp@gjcp.net" at Jul 04, 2005 11:28:35 AM Message-ID: <20050706172222.AFA6373029@linus.groomlake.area51> It was thus said that the Great gordonjcp at gjcp.net once stated: > > > It was thus said that the Great chris once stated: > > > few of the units with no problem, but the PS/2->serial mouse adaptors > > won't > > work through it---I've tried. Well rather, what didn't work was: > > > > PS/2 mouse -> KVM -> PS/2 cable -> serial adaptor -> computer > > > > You must use a PS/2 mouse that actually came with a serial adaptor. Just > any PS/2 mouse won't work. What happens is that the mouse detects on > power-up whether or not it's plugged into a PS/2 port or a serial adaptor, > and then starts sending stuff out in the appropriate mode. I used one of those. In fact, it's still in use, just plugged directly into the computer instead of through the KVM. -spc (Are Cobalt RaQs on topic yet?) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jul 6 13:04:18 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:04:18 -0400 Subject: Altair 8800 Layout Message-ID: <0IJ7006D6WUMK7O6@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Altair 8800 Layout > From: Alex Bihlmaier > Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:43:00 +0200 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > >Hi! > > > >I am searching for the layout of an old Altair 8800 home computer. >A friend of mine is reading Steven Levys "Hackers" and is fascinated >about the Altair 880 homebrew computer. > >I searched the net with google about this computer but i cannot find >sth. useful. > > >Anyone here with infos about the Altair 8800? I have two. A very early 8800 and a later 8800b-t. There is a huge amount of info on the internet at many sites that would be a good start. Several also include simulators of the machine. Then if you have specific questions it will be easier. Allison From tomj at wps.com Wed Jul 6 13:18:11 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 11:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LGP-30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050706111621.A964@localhost> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Christian Corti wrote: > Hopefully it will be working again some day... Until now there's only one > working LGP-30 in the world, only some rooms away :-) I really hope getting > copies from all the paper tapes. We do have a large collection of software, > too, but there might be some paper tapes we don't have. We also have nearly > all printsets for the (European) LGP-30 and LGP-21, blueprints, maintenance > manuals etc. If you ever find ANY software specific to the LGP-21 I would love to have a copy of it. I have found zero in two years of looking. I have the subroutine library that's in the LGP-21 Programmer's Manual only. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jul 6 13:25:10 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 11:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair 8800 Layout Message-ID: <200507061825.LAA23898@clulw009.amd.com> Hi You might send directly to this fellow. I suspect that he is not a regular classiccmp( although he should be ). Dwight >From: "Allison" > >> >>Subject: Altair 8800 Layout >> From: Alex Bihlmaier >> Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 00:43:00 +0200 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >> >>Hi! >> >> >> >>I am searching for the layout of an old Altair 8800 home computer. >>A friend of mine is reading Steven Levys "Hackers" and is fascinated >>about the Altair 880 homebrew computer. >> >>I searched the net with google about this computer but i cannot find >>sth. useful. >> >> >>Anyone here with infos about the Altair 8800? > >I have two. A very early 8800 and a later 8800b-t. >There is a huge amount of info on the internet at many sites that >would be a good start. Several also include simulators of the machine. >Then if you have specific questions it will be easier. > > > >Allison > From computer at officereach.net Wed Jul 6 13:36:29 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 11:36:29 -0700 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? Message-ID: I'm in possession of a mighty fine collection of commodore equipment that I will be finishing the restoration stuff on (you know, replacing some broken keys, etc.) and one mighty fine Commodore64sx "Portable"; is there anyone on here who has a particular fondness for commodore equipment? From tomj at wps.com Wed Jul 6 13:34:16 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 11:34:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang paper tape format? In-Reply-To: <0q3bqsbbr0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <20050625164300.0FCAF97C6B@pail.bensene.com> <0q3bqsbbr0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <20050706112619.S964@localhost> How about just slurping the tape in, and playing with trivial transformations (various code set --> ASCII) to see if any intelligence pops up? If you had recognizable sentences, for example, followed by bursts of nonsense, likely that's end-of-line gunk. And so on. I recognize it's likely to not be voluminous free prose like this email, easy to detect. It might be very difficult to decode. It seems unlikely (though possible) that a WP document was punched onto tape; it is more likely to be a software patch, bootstrap, diagnostic, diag or error dump, random utility, or non-of-the-above. Imbibe the hallucinogen of choice, and stare at the tape; you can usually see binary-loader record patterns (often where they actually exist). Human eyes & brain are VERY good at spotting visual patterns. Once I get in sync with a tape I can usually spot ITA2 cr, lf, nul etc sequences, it's not hard. Slurp to disk, leader and trailer and all, would probably be a good start. On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > Sellam, if you are still working that Wang tape, and think it had > something to do with a Flexo, check YahooGroups for the Fridenites > group; it's a Friden alums list. The inestimable Stan Kelly-Bootle > turned me on to it. > > Flexos could be set up with pretty much any encoding desired > within the limit of the number of channels supported by the model. > > Some of the custom hacks for various OEM's got pretty elaborate; > the EDSAC I Friden reportedly managed to encode double-case with 5 > channels, an awful lot of state for a mechanical device to keep track of. > > Does the tape in question have enough bits to be a document > of substantial size? > > I find myself thinking about IBM's printer control paper tapes, and > wondering if what you have is not so much a document as the control > instructions for printing a certain document, or the numbers or > other info that were supposed to be merged into a document when printed... > > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Jul 6 13:46:16 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 11:46:16 -0700 Subject: SASI vs. SCSI References: <200507020011.j620B53Q075696@dewey.classiccmp.org> <42C69849.8040209@brutman.com> Message-ID: <42CC26F8.1F1FD8D7@msm.umr.edu> Gateway Electronics in San Diego had some about 6 months or a year ago and have had them forever (sasi adapters for pc-jr's). I think they had some others as well. I don't recall any software in evidence, and I don't know if it was standard to include that on a floppy, or if it was in the adapter in a rom. The RIM rings a bell. You might call them and see if they have any left, as there were several there when i was browsing last. we may go down for a weekend, and I'll try to remember to look. Please email me offlist so I can find your address if you are interested, as it will be several weeks before such a trip. Also there are junk shops in El Cajon calling for me to check them... Jim "Michael B. Brutman" wrote: > I almost hate to ask the obvious, but does something have specifications > for the SASI protocol? That would go a long way to answering some of > the questions. > > There was a SASI adapter for a PCjr that went in the modem slot from a > company called RIM. It had a bridge board that connected it to a > Seagate MFM drive. The chipset name escapes me at the moment, but I > thought it was either NCR or Zilog doing second source for NCR. It > smells awfully like SCSI. > > (I don't have the beast - I've just seen pictures of it. But I'd love > to know what makes it tick.) > > Mike From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Jul 6 13:46:19 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:46:19 +0100 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c5825b$008d1d10$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >IIRC you go to http://www,vt100.net/rm/ and follow the obvious link for >documentation. Near (at?) the top of the list is a source listing for an >early version of the COS monitor. It's about half a megabyte, pdf. My mistake is assuming I was the source for the manuals there - obviously some others snuck in that's one of them! But I'm sure I've seen a listing in paper form, so I still need to go hunting in the attic. Antonio From tomj at wps.com Wed Jul 6 13:52:25 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 11:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "DEC vs IBM vs ...": vintage availability, was WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050706113449.O964@localhost> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, William Maddox wrote: > It's frustrating how little > of the older non-DEC minicomputer material seems to be > available. I always figured it was you conspiratorial DEC people, buying up other-make stuff and destroying it to make a one-DEC-world. Most of the comments in this thread seem correct; the leasing arrangements; the stuff went back to the factory or was upgraded in-place. A lot of DEC stuff went to universities, where there was a lot of hands-on in the guts (how many 360's were moded by students and faculty?), departmental hand-me-down leading to surplus. Lots of students had direct access to DEC software and hardware; that breeds familiarity (baby-duck syndrome), actual knowledge, archived (ahem) softare and docs, and clearly drives nostalgia. unix. Even when that sucked, you could see source, docs, and improve it. The box was open. IBM was far more straightforwardly business/industrial oriented, and throughout my computer work history (1975 - 1990's) I never heard of ANYONE EVER having the ability to hack non-PC IBM hardware and sofware at the OS level. OS/360. TSO. The box was terribly, terribly closed. Many manu's like DG appealed to industrial purchasers, who having less connection to computer culture than university stoonts, upgraded, scrapped, returned, etc. It's legally/financially problematic for corporations to let employees have old gear (it can be done, but most don't make the effort or fear IP leakage). DEC had large industrial entre, obviously, more or less the same as other manu's (at whatever scale) but I think university culture overrode it as far as retro goes. Most of DECs products are in the SSI-up integration era; you can actually make them work. Same true for DG et al, but sheer numbers means that when 90% of (DEC, DG, etc) product got crushed, that 10% was 100,000 units, not 1000 units. The LGP-30, as an example of a 2nd-gen machine that is well-known and loved, is (today) a balky, large, delicate and hard to manage system of hot, fragile, wildly organic and analog components, far out side most technologists experience (eg. vacuum tubes and practice involving first-principle physics). It's closer to a damned radio than it is to an SN7400. And only some 500 were made, and at 800+ lbs they weren't exactly forgotten in closets, like stacks of DEC boards can be. [Lest anyone think I hate IBM -- I don't. I really love the 360 architecture, and would have loved writing assembly for it. It's just that their business practices weren't conducive to non-business cultural uses of their systems, until the peecee.] From tomj at wps.com Wed Jul 6 14:00:02 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:00:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050706115303.I964@localhost> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Well, actually, the reason is clear. > > In the old days, IBM was stupid and didn't want anyone to learn about > their computers. I wouldn't call it stupid, the goal was profit, but I get your drift :-) I'll let the IBM fans rip you up. Bandaids are in the cabinet. A similar but much more richly-deserved fate awaits the miserable SOB f*cks like Disney et al; in 5, 10, 20, 50 years much of their content will be utterly and completely inaccessible to the world due to their proprietary DRM lockdown mentality. The increasing use of little security engines running inside your peecee (that you have no legal access to) that have dynamic relationships with the software-distribution website do the same thing. I am definitely an open-source fan, but not fanatic, I do think there's plenty of space for proprietary works and DRM in general, but there still is some justice in the fact that the more-open stuff will be more likely to be historically accessible. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 14:19:03 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:19:03 -0500 Subject: "DEC vs IBM vs ...": vintage availability, was WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706113449.O964@localhost> References: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> <20050706113449.O964@localhost> Message-ID: On 7/6/05, Tom Jennings wrote: > A lot of DEC stuff went to universities, where there was a lot of > hands-on in the guts (how many 360's were moded by students and > faculty?), departmental hand-me-down leading to surplus. I myself have picked up a DECmate I, a PDP-8/a, a PDP-11/34, and several PDP-11/03s from Ohio State surplus over the years. VAXen and other PDP-11s I've gotten from scrap from local and not-so-local businesses. My experience of what's on the street is that I see 20+ DEC machines for each IBM machine, and even then, it's always the smaller IBM boxes like S/34s, S/36s and AS/400s. I'm sure lease vs purchase, aided by a once-robust DEC third-party reseller community have a lot to do with the state of things. -ethan From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Jul 6 14:21:20 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 12:21:20 -0700 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types References: <1120597093.11910.47.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42CC2F30.1954A8B5@msm.umr.edu> Entry 15 was set special, so if a setup program wanted to scan the table, and it could be a different size, it had a marker to search for. Everyone skipped it so that you could either use bios format programs, the IBM AT prep program for a geometry from 0-14, or a program that was loaded from a floppy with the disk controller to format the drive. The explanation claims that the table entry was used to indicate special parameters, but I recall some bios programs that used this, and the disks were not very happy to be moved to other controller types. Extended tables went from 16-40 usually. Int 41 is the pointer to the table. It can be dumped using dos debug if the machine is booted in real mode. I found a nice reference for the old dos stuff here: http://www.clipx.net/ng/ Jules Richardson wrote: > On Tue, 2005-07-05 at 20:39 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > I have a BIOS source listing that gives the hard disk parameter tables. > > It's not the _original_ BIOS (it's the 1985 one), but I think earlier > > ones just defined fewer drive types. Anyway : > > Home come entry 15 was reserved? (and why pick 15?) > > cheers > > J. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Jul 6 14:56:09 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:56:09 +0100 Subject: Emulex DM01 cables Message-ID: <42CC3759.1070108@gjcp.net> Currently looking at buying one of these from eBay to replace my fried RQD11B. Does anyone have a manual, including the cable pinouts? Gordon. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 14:58:01 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:58:01 -0500 Subject: source of blank 82S123s? Message-ID: I'm in search of a couple of blank 82S123s for my recently-aquired SuperElf boards. Who still carries such things? Googling on 'blank 82s123' did not turn up anything promising. Thanks, -ethan From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Wed Jul 6 15:13:10 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:13:10 -0400 Subject: IMSB300 Ethernet Box or IMSB431 Ethernet TRAM Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478089FE40E@exchange.olf.com> Hi, Does anyone know the voltage requirements are for the ethernet transiever on these parts? Is it 12V or is it 5V? The specs do not mention this. I know that the Coral HPT02 uses 5V and the IMSB407 also uses 5V, but what about the IMSB300 and/or IMSB431? Note that the IMSB300 actually contains an IMSB431 Ethernet TRAM underneath the hood.. I have an idle IMSB300 which I want to start using... Thanks, Ram From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 6 15:20:09 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 13:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stock IBM XT low level format program wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050706131332.B23128@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, Degnan Co. wrote: > I have an IBM XT with all original parts. This is the middle era > version with a Xebec/IBM harddrive controller (no dip switches), On almost all of the Xebec/IBM bouards, near the center of the board there are 8 solder pads for holding 4 switches. That provides for four possibilities for each of two drives. All open is normally 10M, so you probably have at least one jumper in that area. > .Maybe I am blind! Is there an IBM official low level format diskette > image out there? That would be preferred. The IBM "official" low level format routine is on the "Advanced Diagnostics" diskette. The stock XT is one configuration that Speedstor handles reasonably well. From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Jul 6 15:38:17 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 15:38:17 -0500 Subject: source of blank 82S123s? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050706153104.02354d10@mail.ubanproductions.com> Hi Ethan, I bought some 82S23, which is the open collector version of the tristate 82S123, from Halpin a while back. If you only need a couple I could sell/trade you some. Alternatively, based on this cross reference: http://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/spies.cgi?action=url&type=info&page=PromRef.txt These are all equivalent: Fujitsu SIG AMD MMI NAT TI HAR 7112 32x8 TS == 82S123, 27S19, 6331, 74S288, 18S030, 7603 You might be able to find some NTE74S288 parts or the AMD27S19. In fact a search at jameco.com for 27s19 brings up 82S123 parts for $8.89 each in the AMD variety. You have to be careful about the differences in programming on the different vendors... --tom At 02:58 PM 7/6/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I'm in search of a couple of blank 82S123s for my recently-aquired >SuperElf boards. Who still carries such things? > >Googling on 'blank 82s123' did not turn up anything promising. > >Thanks, > >-ethan From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Jul 6 15:40:35 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:40:35 +0100 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c5826a$f7381840$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >IIRC you go to http://www,vt100.net/rm/ and follow the obvious link for >documentation. Near (at?) the top of the list is a source listing for an >early version of the COS monitor. It's about half a megabyte, pdf. A quick trip to the attic restored my faith in my sanity (not a good measure of anything, but it's all I have to go on :-)). I found "Resaerch Machines COS 4.0 Assembly Listing" for Release 4.0B from October 1981. The reason I've not scanned it is that it is a perfect bound book (I think that's the term, pages glued into the spine). So I can and will scan it, but it will take a little time since I cannot spend hours at the office scanner :-) There are other similarly unscanned RML manuals up there, so I'll make a proper list at the weekend. Antonio From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jul 6 16:16:36 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 14:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: source of blank 82S123s? Message-ID: <200507062116.OAA23954@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >I'm in search of a couple of blank 82S123s for my recently-aquired >SuperElf boards. Who still carries such things? > >Googling on 'blank 82s123' did not turn up anything promising. > >Thanks, > >-ethan Hi Ethan Jameco list them, using the AMD number AM27S19. The are suppose to be the same but most likely program a little different. Most data i/o 19's can handle them with the unipack. I've had good luck with Jameco on PROMs but I've had bad luck on RAMs. They gladly replace them with some more U-TEST-UMs ( 2114's ). Later Dwight Oh!, http://www.jameco.com From jim.isbell at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 16:25:03 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:25:03 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have one SX64 and love it. I have it rigged with a ham interface so that I can send digital and receive digital on my HT 2meter rig. On 7/6/05, plato computer wrote: > I'm in possession of a mighty fine collection of commodore equipment that > I will be finishing the restoration stuff on (you know, replacing some > broken keys, etc.) and one mighty fine Commodore64sx "Portable"; is there > anyone on here who has a particular fondness for commodore equipment? > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jul 6 17:35:05 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 17:35:05 Subject: Computer Museum Message-ID: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I got this today from a from a guy that says that he's planning on setting up a computer museum in the Orlando area. Interested parties should contact him directly. Joe >Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:18:49 -0400 >From: Vince Custodio >Subject: Re: Computer Museum >X-Originating-IP: [68.205.53.38] >X-Sender: vincemba1 at hotmail.com >To: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com >X-Originating-Email: [vincemba1 at hotmail.com] >X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine >Original-recipient: rfc822;rigdonj at cfl.rr.com >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Jul 2005 20:18:49.0714 (UTC) > FILETIME=[EBACCD20:01C58267] > >Hi, Joe > >Thank you for your quick response. >We are only in the initial planning stage, thus we need to know what >equipment is available. Locating, and subsequently gathering, the collection >is the longest process, so we are starting it first. >Any possible contributors should email me a list of equipment. This list is >forwarded to our Artifact Collection Committee. They decide which pieces >have historical value and thus contact the contributor to determine the >condition of the equipment as well the terms of donation/loan to the museum. >We have a million things to do before the museum even opens. Thus,the museum >building's location and whether it will be constructed or will be an >existing structure is much further down the road. > >Do you have other collector's email addresses? or would you prefer to >forward my emails? > >Thank you > >Sincerely, >Vince Custodio > > > > >>From: "Joe R." >>To: Vince Custodio >>Subject: Re: Computer Museum >>Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 15:48:04 >> >>Hi Vince, >> >> I have several items that I would consider loaning to your museum. Mike >>Haas, dogas at bellsouth.net, is a collector in Savanna Ga. He may consider >>loaning you some equipment. I think there is another collector in the >>Miami area and I think there are a couple in Tampa area but I don't know >>them. There's another guy near me the used to collect computers but he's >>inactive now. He may loan you some stuff though. >> >> What kind of computers are you looking for? >> >> Any idea when you plan on opening your museum? >> >> Joe >> >>At 02:43 PM 7/6/05 -0400, you wrote: >> >Hi, >> >My name is Vince Custodio. I am an Orlando entrepreneur with an interest >>in >> >old computers and their history. I will be opening a Computer Museum in >>the >> >Orlando, FL area. This project is in collaboration with ITT Technical >> >Institute, Lake Mary, FL. >> >I saw your posting at: >> >http://www.cs.unc.edu/~yakowenk/classiccmp/ccrs_list.html. >> >We are currently seeking computer equipment donations or loans to our >> >museum. As a donor, you will receive credit in the respective exhibit as >> >well as having a lifetime membership to the museum. You will also be >>invited >> >to our ribbon-cutting ceremony and grand opening. >> >We will not physically need equipment right now but I am compiling a list >>of >> >potential contributors. >> > >> >Do you have anything that you would consider contributing? >> >Do you know other collectors in Florida? >> > >> >If you have any questions and prefer to call me, you may do so at: 321 >> >377-3412 (my company is Pro Detailz so that is how I answer my cell >>phone) >> > >> >Thank you. >> > >> >Vince Custodio >> >1122 Brantley Estates Dr >> >Altamonte Springs, FL >> > >> > >> > >> > > > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 6 17:00:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: <42C96493.1C70AEA5@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > What I don't understand is why most people don't take a look at the > Vintage Computer Marketplace on a regular basis. Here here! :) > I just sold an MPF-1 on VCM (http://www.vintagecomputermarketplace.com/) > for $20.00. Sure, I could have probably gotten more for it on Ebay, but > why not list stuff *FIRST* on VCM with a reasonable price that sellers > can live with????? And once the ad copy and photo(s) are taken, it is > trivial to move the listing over to Ebay if it doesn't sell on VCM. This is very true. I find deals all the time on the VCM that go unnoticed because people don't take it seriously. Well, I'll admit that Patrick and I haven't had any time to put into it for about a year now, but it runs itself and it runs well. And at some point in the not too far off future, we will be finally rolling out all the promised enhancements and be engaging in a HUGE marketing push, so the early adopters will be the ones who will come out on top when this happens (i.e. when we start charging to use it...the people using it now are actually accumulating free service credits). > And I couldn't agree more with Joe's comments; there is a LOT of stuff > out there for anyone who takes the time to develop a network and > sources. As one example, I would have never gotten the worlds largest > supply of existing Polymorphic software, documentations, equipment, etc. > without the network I have in place. Nor would I (in years past) have > aquired some 50 coinop arcade games at no charge (most are now gone.) I'll have to add my voice (again) to this. I've always advocated actually going out into "the wild" and finding your collection there. Not only is it much more fun (you actually get to leave your computer and get some sun and fresh air for a change), but you find better deals, you actually get to inspect what you buy beforehand (no mystery "Apple 1" deals), when you do find something its a great rush, and you get to MEET REAL LIVE PEOPLE and interact with them and (gasp!) develop relationships. Also, a lot of times you end up getting more than you bargained for. You inevitably meet up with someone at a swap meet who has just a sampling of the crap in their garage sitting in the parking lot. You get invited to come over to their place and clean out their garage, and that's where they offer you that "old Altair computer that they were going to throw away in the next spring cleaning". You get to hear great first hand stories from people who lived in the past that you are so enamored with, and you get to pass along those stories to others, plus tell ones of your own making as you recount the details of that amazing haul of S-100 or PDP-8 hardware that filled you trunk for which you paid $50. And please don't whine to me about how we have it easy in the Silicon Valley over . The SV is one of the most picked over places on the planet. People from all over come here to raid the shelves at Weirdstuff and HSC and all the other surplus places here, so it's not like we have it easy (at least not like it was in the 1990s :) EVERYPLACE has old computers waiting to be found. Some of you just have to look harder than others, but they are there. The way you find them is by getting off your ass (and getting some air and sun) and meeting people and developing relationships. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 6 17:06:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > It costs me the 35 cent listing fee but thats better than spending 30 > minutes packing something for some A**H*** that bid $1 with 10 seconds > to go. So why not start your auction at a price which you would be happy to get for that item? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 6 17:21:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 15:21:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LGP-30 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > John Bohner got it.. I know he's a big fan of the G-15 and friends. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5784697941 > > I'll have to put the pics up for it, it was REALLY nice, full > docs, and software. Hopefully I can get copies from John at > some point. Holy crap. This slipped under my radar. Not that I would've bid on it (already have too much big stuff taking up space and waiting for restoration) but these just do not come around often. And $2,250 is a great deal. That's what a typical Altair sells for, and this thing is *-=MUCH=-* cooler than an Altair. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Jul 6 17:50:45 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 18:50:45 -0400 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? In-Reply-To: References: <20050701151552.5cc9ba50.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050706184935.03b7c448@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >There was nothing the first TRS-80 was that the Apple ][ wasn't. Grey? ;-) Still clawing my way back from the edge of the earth... Damn near fell off! :-O Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From computer at officereach.net Wed Jul 6 18:29:23 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:29:23 -0700 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: wow, that's super cool! I always thought the SX64 was one of the coolest things that I have ever seen, and it was way ahead of its' time. I gotta laugh on the box where it says "business or office"... beacuse, um, that 40 columns sure makes spreadsheets a pain. if someone would like it, I am going to be dis-engaging myself from it - $100.00 plus shipping and it's yours. -----Original Message----- From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:25:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? > I have one SX64 and love it. I have it rigged with a ham interface so > that I can send digital and receive digital on my HT 2meter rig. > > On 7/6/05, plato computer wrote: > > I'm in possession of a mighty fine collection of commodore equipment > that > > I will be finishing the restoration stuff on (you know, replacing > some > > broken keys, etc.) and one mighty fine Commodore64sx "Portable"; is > there > > anyone on here who has a particular fondness for commodore equipment? > > > > > > > > > -- > Jim Isbell > "If you are not living on the edge, well then, > you are just taking up too much space." > W5JAI > 1967 UltraVan #257 > 1936 SS-100 (replica) > 1970 E-Type > 1982 XJ6 > 1985 XJS > 1988 XJ40 > From computer at officereach.net Wed Jul 6 18:29:29 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 16:29:29 -0700 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? Message-ID: wow, that's super cool! I always thought the SX64 was one of the coolest things that I have ever seen, and it was way ahead of its' time. I gotta laugh on the box where it says "business or office"... beacuse, um, that 40 columns sure makes spreadsheets a pain. if someone would like it, I am going to be dis-engaging myself from it - $100.00 plus shipping and it's yours. -----Original Message----- From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:25:03 -0500 Subject: Re: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? > I have one SX64 and love it. I have it rigged with a ham interface so > that I can send digital and receive digital on my HT 2meter rig. > > On 7/6/05, plato computer wrote: > > I'm in possession of a mighty fine collection of commodore equipment > that > > I will be finishing the restoration stuff on (you know, replacing > some > > broken keys, etc.) and one mighty fine Commodore64sx "Portable"; is > there > > anyone on here who has a particular fondness for commodore equipment? > > > > > > > > > -- > Jim Isbell > "If you are not living on the edge, well then, > you are just taking up too much space." > W5JAI > 1967 UltraVan #257 > 1936 SS-100 (replica) > 1970 E-Type > 1982 XJ6 > 1985 XJS > 1988 XJ40 > From jim.isbell at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 18:25:46 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 18:25:46 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Remember when that was made, 40 columns wasnt so bad AND its in full color!!! Thats a good price if it is fully operational. I dont need two enough to pay $100 for a econd one, but I am sure someone will want it. On 7/6/05, plato computer wrote: > wow, that's super cool! I always thought the SX64 was one of the coolest > things that I have ever seen, and it was way ahead of its' time. I gotta > laugh on the box where it says "business or office"... beacuse, um, that > 40 columns sure makes spreadsheets a pain. > > if someone would like it, I am going to be dis-engaging myself from it - > $100.00 plus shipping and it's yours. > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:25:03 -0500 > Subject: Re: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? > > > I have one SX64 and love it. I have it rigged with a ham interface so > > that I can send digital and receive digital on my HT 2meter rig. > > > > On 7/6/05, plato computer wrote: > > > I'm in possession of a mighty fine collection of commodore equipment > > that > > > I will be finishing the restoration stuff on (you know, replacing > > some > > > broken keys, etc.) and one mighty fine Commodore64sx "Portable"; is > > there > > > anyone on here who has a particular fondness for commodore equipment? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Jim Isbell > > "If you are not living on the edge, well then, > > you are just taking up too much space." > > W5JAI > > 1967 UltraVan #257 > > 1936 SS-100 (replica) > > 1970 E-Type > > 1982 XJ6 > > 1985 XJS > > 1988 XJ40 > > > > > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI 1967 UltraVan #257 1936 SS-100 (replica) 1970 E-Type 1982 XJ6 1985 XJS 1988 XJ40 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 6 17:49:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:49:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/23+ and rx-02 drives, need help!!! In-Reply-To: <070420052145.5217.42C9AE1300023A4F0000146121603760219B0809079D99D309@att.net> from "g-wright@att.net" at Jul 4, 5 09:45:56 pm Message-ID: > The system is a Micro PDP 11, 8 slot Rack mount, with > 1 M8189 1123+ > 1 M8067 KB 256k Memory > 1 M8639 YA MFM rx50 controller > 1 M8029 RX-02 controller in this order. > > Everything else seems to work. I added the floppy card > but the rest original. I'm not a 'Qbus person', much prefering Unibus machines, but IIRC one of the ST506/RX50 controllers (RQDX1 I think) had to be the last device on the bus since it didn't pass on grants. If that's the controller you have, then the RXV21 would mever get BGs or NPGs and woul;d probably do what you're seeing. Try putting the RXV21 first... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 6 17:55:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 23:55:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45, sick or not? In-Reply-To: <001001c581c3$f596e540$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jul 5, 5 07:45:08 pm Message-ID: > > Joe wrote... > > Are you sure that the lights aren't blinking too fast to see? Perhaps you > > can hang a logic probe (with a pulse extender) on one of the lights to be > > sure. > > I'll try that tomorrow... but I wouldn't think that is what is happening. Have you tried single-stepping the program from the frontpanel? Be warned, though, that I had a particularly nasty fault on my 11/45. It would mess up branch instructions (and some others IIRC) but when I single-stepped it at the microcode level (I have a KM11 card), it all seemed fine. It turned out to be a chip that was 'going slow'.... > Also, pardon my lack of knowledge, but... shouldn't I be seeing the .2v > ripple as an AC component (ie. a sine wave)? It's a very clear perfect > sawtooth. And it's exactly the same on all the 5V regulators, which strikes > me as odd. No, that sounds right. Even on a linear supply, the ripple is not sinusoidal -- it's an almost-linear ramp down as the smoothing capacitor discharges follwed by a little bit of a sinusoid as the capacitor is recharged. On a switching regulator (which this is), the ripple is likely to look even more like a sawtooth. You might like to replace the output capacitors in your regulator bricks, but I really don't think this is the problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 6 18:10:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:10:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jul 5, 5 09:12:41 pm Message-ID: > > Well, I finally got around to attempting to re-spool this stupidly > designed tape. It's actually avery ingenious design (it's the same design, basically, as QIC tape cartridges). Remember you want a constant tape speed past the head. By driving the outside of the tape spools at a constant speed (that's what the belt and drive puck do), rather than turning the spools themselves by their axles, that's exactly what you get. It avoids the capstan, pinch roller, slipping clutches, etc, used in audio tape and cassette recorders. > > Your description sounds like a different tape than what I was dealing > with. The tape did not come off of either spool but was instead attached > onto both spools. THere were several designs, sure... > > At any rate, the stupid tensioning belt (whatever its called) broke on me. > Oh well, fuck that tape. I'll try to read it anyway (is the tensioning > belt necessary?) I also noticed numerous spots on the the tape where the Of course the belt is necessary. It's how the tape is driven. You can borrow one from another tape cartridge. > oxide had flaked off, so any re-attempt may well be futile. Whoever Obviously you've lost data where that oxide is missing. You'll also have problems becuase these drives use optincal BOT/EOT detection (there's a small hole in the tape, a mirror as part of the cartridge housing, and a bulb/photodetector in the drive). The system will think it's got to the end of the tape if it finds a clear spot. > designed these tapes is a moron. I can't imagine how impossibly expensive > it must've been to manufacture them. See above. Tell you what, you see if you can come up with a better design. > > I hate computers. Feel free to send me all your collection. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 6 18:13:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:13:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> from "William Maddox" at Jul 5, 5 09:33:57 pm Message-ID: > Size is probably a big issue, but DEC made some big > machines and IBM made some small ones, and the DEC > boxes still seem to get more attention from > collectors. I think that the relative availability of > DEC hardware, software, and documentation simply makes I suspect is is partly the doucmentation. DEC machines of this period tended to come with schematics rather than board-swapper guides (which is what the IBM service manuals I've seen were). There are thus plenty of PDP8, PDP11, etc shematics around. And IBM used custom parts a lot earlier than DEC. I've not seen a 370, but I'd be suprised if it was all off-the-shelf components. Unibus PDP11s PDP8s, etc tended to be. -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jul 6 19:09:35 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "DEC vs IBM vs ...": vintage availability, was WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706113449.O964@localhost> Message-ID: > A lot of DEC stuff went to universities, where there was a lot of > hands-on in the guts (how many 360's were moded by students and > faculty?), departmental hand-me-down leading to surplus. IBM stuff tends to be VERY hard to mod because of the design philosophy - everything is done very properly and checked. Attempting a mod will result in modifying the circuit that checks the modded circuit, then the circuit that checks the checker... IBM docs are amongst the best out there, once the system is understood. Usually these docs were pretty much available in the computer room, so a bribe (beer works at a university) would get the Big Blue Binders. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jul 6 19:20:42 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 01:20:42 +0100 Subject: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: <1120502180.10023.68.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <42C96493.1C70AEA5@rain.org> <1120502180.10023.68.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <754177864d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <1120502180.10023.68.camel at weka.localdomain> Jules Richardson wrote: > Most of the stuff I get (albeit for the museum, not personally) comes > from local usenet groups, Tried that one - most of the uk.leeds.*.forsale type NGs seem to be full of asshat spammers and such. Oh how I miss my spam-filtered cis-dfn newsfeed :( > or the university - it's at the stage now I think I mentioned the "destroy everything" attitude the local universities and colleges share. > where the local population seem to know to chuck things this way. I've > only recently joined the local freecycle group, so I'm not sure how good > that'll be in terms of stuff yet. I'm on the Leeds freecycle group - haven't seen anything interesting yet. > Landfill / scrapyards in the UK don't seem to be anything like their US > counterparts according to what I've seen on this list - there just > aren't items there for the taking. I've noticed that too :-/ > There is stuff out there anyway - you just need to give people a prod > every once in a while and get yourself noticed as someone who can give > this stuff a home. Time to put something of a virtual classiccmp museum on my website then, I guess. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn now and again. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 6 19:16:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > I hate computers. > > Feel free to send me all your collection. Come get it. It's yours. Bring along six 40' shipping containers and a crew of 7. I'll give you 24 hours and you have to take all or nothing. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 19:39:03 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:39:03 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507050114.07320.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200507050114.07320.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050706193903.65dfeb27.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 01:14:07 -0500 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival declared on Tuesday 05 July 2005 12:15 am: > > On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > I am already shocked about the price being higher than $1000 !!! > > > > How should students like me be able to play with old computers > > > > if some people thing that these machines have the value of their > > > > weight in gold....!?! > > > > > > Get a Data General or an Interdata - they tend to be cheaper by a > > > good stretch. > > > > > > I was actually thinking about starting an informal pool on the > > > Straight-8 sale, but did not get around to it. When the next > > > awesome machine hits email, lets set one up. > > > > > > Anyone want to venture what a PDP-1 would fetch? S/360? > > > > $50K. > > $1M! > > Wait, are we supposed to give realistic numbers? > > $50k for a -1 seems high but not totally unreasonable for a machine > that is in excellent (running) condition, if it were sold through a > 'real' auction house, like Christie's, under the best possible > circumstances. > > $50k for an S/360 does seem too high, though, because the S/360 has a > lower 'collectability' (interest, and more of them were produced). > Price on the S/360 would probably also follow what CPU model (among > other factors). A Model 30 would likely produce nowhere near as much > interest as a Model 91, and peripherals would likely make a bigger > difference with the S/360 than they would with the -1. At best, I'd > give a number in the $10k-$20k range for a relatively complete, > working, and scratch-free S/360 setup (with the most desirable CPU and > > peripherals) under the 'best conditions'. > How about an IBM 650? Are there people out there with them still operable? I still have one loose-leaf binder for the 650. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 19:44:15 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:44:15 -0500 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050706194415.0cd68265.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 13:41:13 -0400 Richard Beaudry wrote: > Hello all, > > Believe it or not, I couldn't find this on google, so I humbly submit > it here.... > > Does anyone have a list of the built-in drive types from the original > IBM AT? I'd like the drive number, heads, cyls, and capacity if you > have the list. The setup program on the diagnostics disk only lets > you pick a type, but it does not tell you what the choices are... > > Of course, I know that later computers came along with BIOSes that let > you see the drive types instead of picking one out of thin air, but I > don't know if these followed the AT choices... > As one suggestion, you do not need to use the original IBM Setup disk. There are plenty of third-party MS-DOS utilties to do the AT Setup, and I'm pretty certain some of them are more user friendly and include drive topologies. On this topic, I recently located an original IBM Monochrome monitor, so for me it's now just a matter of pulling out the EGA Techref and jumpering the IBM EGA card in my AT for EGA monochrome and plugging the monitor and an original PC-AT 84 key keyboard in, and I can fire up the AT I've been wanting to check out for over a year. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 20:00:25 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:00:25 -0500 Subject: Stock IBM XT low level format program wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050706200025.6338cdc1.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 14:46:01 -0400 "Degnan Co." wrote: > I have an IBM XT with all original parts. This is the middle era > version with a Xebec/IBM harddrive controller (no dip switches), > newer diskette drive, and an IBM 20 MB hard drive. The computer > boots with no errors. It looks like the computer was never used, > it's pristine. Might anyone have a link to a program that I can > use to run a low level format specific to this controller card and > hard drive? I have had trouble locating the low level format program > via DEBUG. I have found a number of Debug commands on the Internet > for other drives and controllers, but none for this. I have searched > the segement offsets between C000:0000 and EC00:0000 in 0400 > increments..Maybe I am blind! Is there an IBM official low level > format diskette image out there? That would be preferred. > Thanks...Bill > -- E N D -- > Low level formatting a drive on a Xebec card doesn't involve using Debug to 'jump into' a textmode utility as it does for Western Digital 8 bit cards and many other PC-XT cards. For the Xebec card, there are specific I/O registers to write values into and read values back from. You can do this using the 'in' and 'out' commands in debug to read and write to those ports manually, or you can use the aformentioned IBM utility. {You could probably work up something 'spiffy' using Basic if you wanted.) I've never used the IBM utility, and used to have the write/read details. It's a nerve-wracking procedure, because you have to blindly do a bunch of in and out commands with debug, then after a few, the hard drive light comes on and it runs the format. Then after awhile, the drive light goes out and there's a register you can read to verify it worked. I remember that the tech ref for the Xebec card should list the I/O instruction set (i.e. the config registers, and what 'commands' are issued by issuing I/O commands to where,) and at one point I remember 'reverse engineering' the Debug In/Out sequence I had and figuring out exactly what each write accomplished. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jul 6 20:08:52 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:08:52 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/23+ and rx-02 drives, need help!!! In-Reply-To: References: <070420052145.5217.42C9AE1300023A4F0000146121603760219B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: On 7/6/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > The system is a Micro PDP 11, 8 slot Rack mount, with > > 1 M8189 1123+ > > 1 M8067 KB 256k Memory > > 1 M8639 YA MFM rx50 controller > > 1 M8029 RX-02 controller in this order. > > I'm not a 'Qbus person', much prefering Unibus machines, but IIRC one of > the ST506/RX50 controllers (RQDX1 I think) had to be the last device on > the bus since it didn't pass on grants. If that's the controller you > have, then the RXV21 would mever get BGs or NPGs and woul;d probably do > what you're seeing. Try putting the RXV21 first... Especially since the boot ROMs pull the boot sector off the floppy without interrupts. You should see some activity, hear heads, something, but no OS prompt. You could always check the contents of low memory to see if the boot routine was able to pull the first sector off the diskette. In any case, you can't put the RVX21 behind the RQDX1. -ethan From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 20:10:14 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:10:14 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050706201014.3e790a6a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 5 Jul 2005 21:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, William Maddox wrote: > > > Size is probably a big issue, but DEC made some big machines and IBM > > made some small ones, and the DEC boxes still seem to get more > > attention from collectors. I think that the relative availability of > > DEC hardware, software, and documentation simply makes the DEC > > machines more practical if one's interest is in restoring and > > running them. That would explain the 8's and 11's anyway. It's > > frustrating how little of the older non-DEC minicomputer material > > seems to be available. > > Well, actually, the reason is clear. > > In the old days, IBM was stupid and didn't want anyone to learn about > their computers. They kept them locked up behind glass walls where > one could only drool over them, and only let priveleged people touch > them. So in general, most IBM computers (i.e. not the 1620 or 1130) > were off-limits, and thus there is relatively little hacking > experience for people today who are older and richer and want to > reiminisce to draw upon and drive interest in IBM machines. > > DEC, on the other hand, fully understood the hacking instinct. It could be reasonably argued that DEC just couldn't make it into the 'First Tier' market so had to make do with the hacker/low-end market. IBM pretty much OWNED the first tier in that era. > They made > machines that were meant to be touched, programmed, and hacked. From > their very first models they made them open and friendly and > approachable and PERSONAL. Most people today who went to college from > the early 1960s onwards probably had access to DEC machines and > learned to love them as they touched and prodded them and flipped > their switches and hacked on them all night. So that experience > remains with them and today that is what they seek. > > So that's why a DEC PDP-1 will always have much more appeal than a > gray thing that IBM created. > > IBM wanted to keep computers away from the masses, to keep them in the > hands of the "priveleged", and their reward was to be able to continue > to dominate the market to this day. DEC wanted computers to be free > and for people to use them. Their reward was to be sucked up, torn > apart and destroyed by a lesser company whose origins was in making > clones of IBM's computers. I'd hardly say that said 'clones' that you refer to come from the same heritage as the IBM mainframes you mentioned in the first part of your posting. The IBM Clone market was open, far more open, in fact, than any other computer architecutre in history. Open, in fact, to the point where it has been completely comodified and collectors and enthusiasts 'can't get their arms around it' and tend to scorn the clone machines. Believe me, a day will probably come when people who are in their twenties now will wax nostalgic on that old Leading Edge or Packard Bell clone they started out on as a little kid, and want one just like it. And most of them will have been melted down. > > How ironic. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------- International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ][ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 20:14:24 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:14:24 -0500 Subject: "DEC vs IBM vs ...": vintage availability, was WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706113449.O964@localhost> References: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> <20050706113449.O964@localhost> Message-ID: <20050706201424.1d71da13.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 11:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Tom Jennings wrote: > On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, William Maddox wrote: > > [Lest anyone think I hate IBM -- I don't. I really love the 360 > architecture, and would have loved writing assembly for it. It's > just that their business practices weren't conducive to > non-business cultural uses of their systems, until the peecee.] > They were open enough, at least, that people like my dad were able to 'check out' and bring home an IBM 5100 on the weekend for us to fool with. I remember loading and playing Star Trek on the 5100 at home. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 20:17:13 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:17:13 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050706201713.363f8c94.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:13:47 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Size is probably a big issue, but DEC made some big > > machines and IBM made some small ones, and the DEC > > boxes still seem to get more attention from > > collectors. I think that the relative availability of > > DEC hardware, software, and documentation simply makes > > I suspect is is partly the doucmentation. DEC machines of this period > tended to come with schematics rather than board-swapper guides (which > is what the IBM service manuals I've seen were). There are thus plenty > of PDP8, PDP11, etc shematics around. > > And IBM used custom parts a lot earlier than DEC. I've not seen a 370, > > but I'd be suprised if it was all off-the-shelf components. Unibus > PDP11s PDP8s, etc tended to be. > Even where IBM cards of that era used 'commodity' components, they were usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere mortal to figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor networks and resistors/capacitors (except those few that have color-code bands.) IBM was an empire unto itself. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 20:23:26 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:23:26 -0500 Subject: Trying to identify a Motorola part from a grab bag In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050706202326.757d2a94.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 00:51:07 -0500 Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have a small handful of these parts with a Motorola 'M' on them. > They are 3-legged, seeming to be a transistor or similar device (I > don't think they are voltage regulators). The case is plastic, > smaller than a 78M05 (T220?), especially since the metal thermal > transfer patch is integral to the body (not sticking up above the > epoxy like on a 78M05). > > The markings are... > > R927 > S > AC823 > > I can't seem to find anything reasonable by googling Motorola and > either R927 or AC823. Does this sound familiar to anyone here? > To figure out if they're simple transistors, use the diode function on a VOM to find the 'diode' junctions between pins. If they're simple transistors, you can then use the crude 'transistor tester' function on many VOMs to figure out Emitter, Base, Collector (by hooking it up until you get a reasonable 'Beta' reading on the VOM). If you have enough of them, you can make wire up a bunch of flip flops and make your own discrete digital computer. (this last paragraph included to bring this comment back on-topic). From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jul 6 20:27:18 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:27:18 -0500 Subject: "DECnet isn't dead" in Datamation and on Slashdot Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050706202656.0aaed2d0@mail> http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/06/1823205&tid=230&tid=218 - John From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 20:28:49 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:28:49 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050706202849.2455b3d6.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 16:25:03 -0500 "Jim Isbell, W5JAI" wrote: > I have one SX64 and love it. I have it rigged with a ham interface so > that I can send digital and receive digital on my HT 2meter rig. > > On 7/6/05, plato computer wrote: > > I'm in possession of a mighty fine collection of commodore equipment > > that I will be finishing the restoration stuff on (you know, > > replacing some broken keys, etc.) and one mighty fine Commodore64sx > > "Portable"; is there anyone on here who has a particular fondness > > for commodore equipment? > > > > > > > I am now working in a deparment where there is an SX64 still 'in production' hooked up to a test fixture and occasionally used. I am keeping a close eye on it and hope one day when it gets 'obsoleted' it'll head my way. (in fact it'll probably be my job to rig up it's replacement) I received a complete regular Commodore 64 system with 1571 drive a few weeks ago, all boxed up, with the custom data aquisition card for the test fixture application it was used for. Yep. There's at least ONE SX-64 out there still IN USE that I hope to acquire when it's retired. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Jul 6 20:35:42 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:35:42 -0500 Subject: "DECnet isn't dead" in Datamation and on Slashdot In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050706202656.0aaed2d0@mail> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050706202656.0aaed2d0@mail> Message-ID: <20050706203542.4676ca3d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:27:18 -0500 John Foust wrote: > > http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/06/1823205&tid=230&tid=218 > > - John > Yes, but C-Net is probably dead. C-Net was a popular Commodore-based BBS package. I was active on a few boards that ran it years back- amazing to think now that we'd all auto-dial like mad to get access to a C64 machine with two (or three) 1541 drives and a 300 baud modem. (sorry for the topic drift) From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jul 6 21:17:28 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 22:17:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706193903.65dfeb27.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > How about an IBM 650? Are there people out there with them still > operable? There are at least two in private hands. One showed up right around me, but I did not get it. Being in IBM land, I have to think there are more great machines sitting just within my reach. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 6 21:21:02 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: <20050706202849.2455b3d6.chenmel@earthlink.net> from Scott Stevens at "Jul 6, 5 08:28:49 pm" Message-ID: <200507070221.TAA13070@floodgap.com> > I am now working in a deparment where there is an SX64 still 'in > production' hooked up to a test fixture and occasionally used. I am > keeping a close eye on it and hope one day when it gets 'obsoleted' > it'll head my way. (in fact it'll probably be my job to rig up it's > replacement) I received a complete regular Commodore 64 system with > 1571 drive a few weeks ago, all boxed up, with the custom data > aquisition card for the test fixture application it was used for. > > Yep. There's at least ONE SX-64 out there still IN USE that I hope to > acquire when it's retired. Could a photograph be taken? I think the Commodore masses would love it. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Quote for the day: " ------------------------------------------------------- From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jul 6 21:24:55 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 22:24:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706201713.363f8c94.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > Even where IBM cards of that era used 'commodity' components, they were > usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere mortal to > figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor networks and > resistors/capacitors (except those few that have color-code bands.) Unless you get the cross reference... For the pre-1978 (or so) machines, you can pretty much debug down to the chip level. With the right Blue Binders, pretty much every last part is detailed to a silly extent. WAY more detailed than DEC docs. A number of the logic families are also really quite close to off the shelf items, just in weird packages. Of course, some would say the reason why IBM stuff is cool is BECAUSE it is so alien! William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From computer at officereach.net Wed Jul 6 21:33:51 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 19:33:51 -0700 Subject: Scott Steven's c-NET bbs In-Reply-To: <20050706202849.2455b3d6.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050706202849.2455b3d6.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Scott, if you have a copy of c-NET BBS still in existence, or know of where I can get a copy of it to put on line, I would love to put up a telnet-based BBS running it. I can assign an IP address to a serial port and simply use a TTL -> RS232 level shifting circuit to hook up a 1200- baud emulated modem. Then, we've got ourselves a C-net bbs. Anyone ? >Yes, but C-Net is probably dead. C-Net was a popular Commodore-based >BBS package. I was active on a few boards that ran it years back- >C64 machine with two (or three) 1541 drives and a 300 baud modem. >(sorry for the topic drift) From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jul 6 22:28:24 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:28:24 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CCA158.7000300@jbrain.com> plato computer wrote: >I'm in possession of a mighty fine collection of commodore equipment that >I will be finishing the restoration stuff on (you know, replacing some >broken keys, etc.) and one mighty fine Commodore64sx "Portable"; is there >anyone on here who has a particular fondness for commodore equipment? > > > To be blunt, there is much fondness here for CBM stuff. However, of all the machines, the SX holds a special place in my heart. I remember them for sale at K-Mart when I was 12-13 or so, but there was no way I could pay $595.00 for one. So, I drooled over it and left the store each time without it. Many years later, after I had mostly resigned myself to never owning one, two people offered me free units. One was in prisine condition, the other in good condition. Both ran (and run). That was in '95 or so. Last year, I eBayed (yes, the evil one) 2 more (one working in good condition for $50 and another not working for $25). The last one needed only a PLA. So, I'm hoarding them, I guess. They make great demo machines for EXPOs, and there are cool to boot. The best two are considered my museum pieces, while the other 2 go to shows. I even took a SX-64 with me on a business trip to work on some C-64 code last Fall. The bellhop gave some strange looks. I've got a spare keyboard missuing some keys here, so if someone needs keyboard parts for an SX, let me know. Oh, and anyone have a line on a user manual and the cute SX-64 bag? I would love to get one of each. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From computer at officereach.net Wed Jul 6 22:49:15 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:49:15 -0700 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: <42CCA158.7000300@jbrain.com> References: <42CCA158.7000300@jbrain.com> Message-ID: jim if you want a computer (mostly together, missing some keys), I would be happy to send you the one that I have designated as "parts"... that way, I bet you can have two complete sx64's. I think that commodore went wrong in three areas. 1. they never put a standart rs232 port on their stuff. sure you could use 1488's , but that was not the point. There was no real rs232. 2. The disk drives were basically computers to themselves; 3. 40 columns just ain't cool. 80 is the way to go. So..... what else? Is Anyone here who was integrally involved in the design of the machine? -----Original Message----- From: Jim Brain To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:28:24 -0500 Subject: Re: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? > plato computer wrote: > > >I'm in possession of a mighty fine collection of commodore equipment > that > >I will be finishing the restoration stuff on (you know, replacing some > >broken keys, etc.) and one mighty fine Commodore64sx "Portable"; is > there > >anyone on here who has a particular fondness for commodore equipment? > > > > > > > To be blunt, there is much fondness here for CBM stuff. However, of > all > the machines, the SX holds a special place in my heart. I remember > them > for sale at K-Mart when I was 12-13 or so, but there was no way I could > pay $595.00 for one. So, I drooled over it and left the store each > time > without it. > > Many years later, after I had mostly resigned myself to never owning > one, two people offered me free units. One was in prisine condition, > the other in good condition. Both ran (and run). That was in '95 or > so. > > Last year, I eBayed (yes, the evil one) 2 more (one working in good > condition for $50 and another not working for $25). The last one > needed > only a PLA. > > So, I'm hoarding them, I guess. They make great demo machines for > EXPOs, and there are cool to boot. The best two are considered my > museum pieces, while the other 2 go to shows. > > I even took a SX-64 with me on a business trip to work on some C-64 > code > last Fall. The bellhop gave some strange looks. > > I've got a spare keyboard missuing some keys here, so if someone needs > keyboard parts for an SX, let me know. > > Oh, and anyone have a line on a user manual and the cute SX-64 bag? I > would love to get one of each. > > Jim > > -- > Jim Brain, Brain Innovations > brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com > Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! > From computer at officereach.net Wed Jul 6 22:51:58 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:51:58 -0700 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: References: <42CCA158.7000300@jbrain.com> Message-ID: jim, just simply pay for the shipping and I'll send you the "99% complete sx64" ... -----Original Message----- From: "plato computer" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , "Jim Brain" Cc: Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:49:15 -0700 Subject: Re: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? > jim if you want a computer (mostly together, missing some keys), I > would > be happy to send you the one that I have designated as "parts"... that > way, I bet you can have two complete sx64's. > > I think that commodore went wrong in three areas. > > 1. they never put a standart rs232 port on their stuff. sure you could > use 1488's , but that was not the point. There was no real rs232. > > 2. The disk drives were basically computers to themselves; > > 3. 40 columns just ain't cool. 80 is the way to go. > > So..... what else? Is Anyone here who was integrally involved in the > design of the machine? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Brain > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:28:24 -0500 > Subject: Re: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? > > > plato computer wrote: > > > > >I'm in possession of a mighty fine collection of commodore equipment > > that > > >I will be finishing the restoration stuff on (you know, replacing > some > > >broken keys, etc.) and one mighty fine Commodore64sx "Portable"; is > > there > > >anyone on here who has a particular fondness for commodore > equipment? > > > > > > > > > > > To be blunt, there is much fondness here for CBM stuff. However, of > > all > > the machines, the SX holds a special place in my heart. I remember > > them > > for sale at K-Mart when I was 12-13 or so, but there was no way I > could > > pay $595.00 for one. So, I drooled over it and left the store each > > time > > without it. > > > > Many years later, after I had mostly resigned myself to never owning > > one, two people offered me free units. One was in prisine condition, > > the other in good condition. Both ran (and run). That was in '95 or > > so. > > > > Last year, I eBayed (yes, the evil one) 2 more (one working in good > > condition for $50 and another not working for $25). The last one > > needed > > only a PLA. > > > > So, I'm hoarding them, I guess. They make great demo machines for > > EXPOs, and there are cool to boot. The best two are considered my > > museum pieces, while the other 2 go to shows. > > > > I even took a SX-64 with me on a business trip to work on some C-64 > > code > > last Fall. The bellhop gave some strange looks. > > > > I've got a spare keyboard missuing some keys here, so if someone > needs > > keyboard parts for an SX, let me know. > > > > Oh, and anyone have a line on a user manual and the cute SX-64 bag? > I > > would love to get one of each. > > > > Jim > > > > -- > > Jim Brain, Brain Innovations > > brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com > > Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! > > > > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Wed Jul 6 22:44:23 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 20:44:23 -0700 Subject: source of blank 82S123s? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200507062044230992.06492F0C@192.168.42.129> Very hard to find in anything less than large (and very expensive) quantities. It may not be original equipment, but you could probably cobble up an adapter to let a UV-EPROM replace the OTP PROM device. Happy hunting. *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 06-Jul-05 at 14:58 Ethan Dicks wrote: >I'm in search of a couple of blank 82S123s for my recently-aquired >SuperElf boards. Who still carries such things? > >Googling on 'blank 82s123' did not turn up anything promising. > >Thanks, > >-ethan -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jul 6 22:55:16 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:55:16 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: References: <42CCA158.7000300@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <42CCA7A4.10101@jbrain.com> >1. they never put a standart rs232 port on their stuff. sure you could >use 1488's , but that was not the point. There was no real rs232. > > They did later with the B series machines and the Plus/4, but it was too late by then. >2. The disk drives were basically computers to themselves; > > I dunno. I think the drive was fine with it's own CPU. What was a bear was the slow IEC protocol. Search for Commodore Trivia and IEC to find Jim Butterfield's information on why the IEC protocol ended up so slow. If you can;t find it, let me know, and I will post it here. It's a good read. >3. 40 columns just ain't cool. 80 is the way to go. > > Again, fixed with the B series and the C128, but again, too late. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 6 23:00:29 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706201014.3e790a6a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Believe me, a day will probably come when people who are in their > twenties now will wax nostalgic on that old Leading Edge or Packard Bell > clone they started out on as a little kid, and want one just like it. > And most of them will have been melted down. I've got each in my collection ;) I'm not saying they're rare or anything, but I've hardly seen any 286 or 386 computers come through my warehouse in the past few months. The trickle has definitely slowed down. If you think you might have a need for a 286 or 386 in the future, you should probably be wanting to find a nice representative system right around now. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 6 23:09:11 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: <42CCA158.7000300@jbrain.com> from Jim Brain at "Jul 6, 5 10:28:24 pm" Message-ID: <200507070409.VAA16226@floodgap.com> > Oh, and anyone have a line on a user manual and the cute SX-64 bag? I > would love to get one of each. I've got a complete kit with the original cable, bag and manual, along with the "blue hubs" on the handles. That's pretty much the only way I'll buy them now, and it took me buying three of them in various states of completeness to cobble together a fully original set of equipment. However, I will buy another complete SX-64 kit if I find one. I *am* looking for another SX keyboard (cable nice, but I really want the keyboard -- I can build the cable if needed), so if anyone (the original poster?) is getting rid of one, let me know. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- No good deed goes unpunished. -- Clare Boothe Luce ------------------------- From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 6 23:02:30 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:02:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706201713.363f8c94.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Even where IBM cards of that era used 'commodity' components, they were > usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere mortal to > figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor networks and > resistors/capacitors (except those few that have color-code bands.) DEC used standard components. Hmm, another example of the more open nature of DEC vs. IBM? ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jul 6 23:05:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > How about an IBM 650? Are there people out there with them still > > operable? > > There are at least two in private hands. One showed up right around me, > but I did not get it. Being in IBM land, I have to think there are more > great machines sitting just within my reach. For certain. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jul 6 23:56:08 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:56:08 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: Message-ID: <00bc01c582b0$307ef9d0$5b7da418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 12:00 AM Subject: Re: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 > On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > Believe me, a day will probably come when people who are in their > > twenties now will wax nostalgic on that old Leading Edge or Packard Bell > > clone they started out on as a little kid, and want one just like it. > > And most of them will have been melted down. > > I've got each in my collection ;) > > I'm not saying they're rare or anything, but I've hardly seen any 286 or > 386 computers come through my warehouse in the past few months. The > trickle has definitely slowed down. If you think you might have a need > for a 286 or 386 in the future, you should probably be wanting to find a > nice representative system right around now. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] Leading Edge and Packard Bells always sucked (my first PC was a new 286 Packard Bell). I did always want a 386 Gateway desktop case, those looked nice. The high end Northgates and Everex machines looked nice (could be 486 era). > From news at computercollector.com Thu Jul 7 00:07:21 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 01:07:21 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <00bc01c582b0$307ef9d0$5b7da418@game> Message-ID: <200507070512.j675Cu1W080779@keith.ezwind.net> So, what from today will be collectible in 2015 or 2020? I suppose anything that's not a beige box: iMac, Internet appliances, smartphones, tablets, early NAS boxes, etc.... I can't think of much on the server side... perhaps the last models from companies that died or were acquired! > > I'm not saying they're rare or anything, but I've hardly seen any 286 or > 386 computers come through my warehouse in the past few months. The > trickle has definitely slowed down. If you think you might have a need > for a 286 or 386 in the future, you should probably be wanting to find a > nice representative system right around now. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail From tomj at wps.com Thu Jul 7 00:33:32 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 22:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050706223008.P13138@localhost> >> Well, I finally got around to attempting to re-spool this stupidly >> designed tape. On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > By driving the outside of the tape spools at a constant speed > (that's what the belt and drive puck do), rather than turning the spools > themselves by their axles, that's exactly what you get. I agree with Tony. It's a brilliant design in fact. If the belts are dying at 1 to 5 years, OK, blame the manufacturer. But if we're talking about 10+ year old tapes, please -- replace them with new ones (tapes have a limited life) or accept that they are vintage and stop whining. You're using them well past their design life. From tomj at wps.com Thu Jul 7 00:36:18 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 22:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LGP30 pictures In-Reply-To: <53df2bd8b679a8e4065639752f65fe57@spies.com> References: <53df2bd8b679a8e4065639752f65fe57@spies.com> Message-ID: <20050706223538.B13138@localhost> On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Al Kossow wrote: > I just put the pics from the auction at > www.bitsavers.org/pdf/generalPrecision/LGP30pics Good pix! The drum was refurbed in 1967!!! Lucky bastard. I'm glad that John finally got a complete '30! From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 7 00:53:17 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 22:53:17 -0700 Subject: New Finds Thanks to Networking Message-ID: <42CCC34D.52535449@rain.org> I got a call tonight and picked up an Eagle IIe computer, Lisa 2 (3 1/2" drive), Vic 20, Bunker Ramo micro/mini with the possibility of picking up a couple of Polymorphic Toasters (the orange S-100 machine.) I will be picking up two more Bunker Ramo computers on Monday. These Bunker Ramo computers were apparently used in a brokerage house and the possibility exists that he has the docs for them. I don't have a model number right now, but is anyone familiar with Bunker-Ramo and the computers they made? From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Thu Jul 7 01:37:05 2005 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 07:37:05 +0100 Subject: IBM 650 (was WOW!!!! ...) In-Reply-To: <20050706193903.65dfeb27.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200507050114.07320.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20050706193903.65dfeb27.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1120718225.24097.6.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 19:39 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > How about an IBM 650? Are there people out there with them still > operable? > > I still have one loose-leaf binder for the 650. I think the 'first electronic computer in New Zealand' ( http://www.ibm.com/ibm/nz/ ) still exists in NZ. I am pretty sure that this was operating at Motat ( http://www.motat.org.nz ) in the '70s but was subsequently reclaimed by IBM. I might be totally wrong on this - it's on my list of things to check up on next time I'm in NZ. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 7 06:22:34 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:22:34 +0000 Subject: IBM 650 (was WOW!!!! ...) In-Reply-To: <1120718225.24097.6.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <200507050114.07320.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20050706193903.65dfeb27.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1120718225.24097.6.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <1120735354.15438.8.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 07:37 +0100, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 19:39 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > > How about an IBM 650? Are there people out there with them still > > operable? > > > > I still have one loose-leaf binder for the 650. > > I think the 'first electronic computer in New Zealand' > ( http://www.ibm.com/ibm/nz/ ) still exists in NZ. I am pretty sure > that this was operating at Motat ( http://www.motat.org.nz ) in the '70s > but was subsequently reclaimed by IBM. I might be totally wrong on this > - it's on my list of things to check up on next time I'm in NZ. It certainly wasn't on public display at MOTAT when I last went there a couple of years ago, and that'd be the most likely place for it if it was viewable by the public. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 7 06:28:34 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 11:28:34 +0000 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: <200507070409.VAA16226@floodgap.com> References: <200507070409.VAA16226@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1120735714.15420.15.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-07-06 at 21:09 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Oh, and anyone have a line on a user manual and the cute SX-64 bag? I > > would love to get one of each. > > I've got a complete kit with the original cable, bag and manual, along with > the "blue hubs" on the handles. OK, what's the deal with the blue hubs? Both our working and spares SX- 64 have them; were they prone to falling off, or only some were made with them or something? Someone dropped our two off to us one day having found them on the tip. (both with half the ICs dead, one with an analogue display fault, one with a PSU fault, and only one keyboard cable between the pair - took me a fair bit of messing around to make a nice usable machine!) > I *am* looking for another SX keyboard That's my big gripe about them; the keyboard feels permanently on the verge of breaking. I wish they'd made the thing slightly bulkier/heavier and not quite so flimsy. cheers Jules From bqt at Update.UU.SE Thu Jul 7 07:14:42 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:14:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507070407.j6746idd038910@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507070407.j6746idd038910@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 William Donzelli wrote: > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > Even where IBM cards of that era used 'commodity' components, they were > > usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere mortal to > > figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor networks and > > resistors/capacitors (except those few that have color-code bands.) > > Unless you get the cross reference... > > For the pre-1978 (or so) machines, you can pretty much debug down to the > chip level. With the right Blue Binders, pretty much every last part is > detailed to a silly extent. WAY more detailed than DEC docs. I don't see how anything could be more documented than having the complete engineering drawings of the whole machine. And that's what you normally got on old DEC machines. That's what I have of the PDP-11/70. Full drawings of every curcuit in the machine. And then I have all the technical manuals for all subsystems that document things in a more text-like manner as well. But as usual: when in doubt, the drawings are the definitive authority. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 7 07:18:03 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 05:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: <1120735714.15420.15.camel@weka.localdomain> from Jules Richardson at "Jul 7, 5 11:28:34 am" Message-ID: <200507071218.FAA13028@floodgap.com> > > > Oh, and anyone have a line on a user manual and the cute SX-64 bag? I > > > would love to get one of each. > > > > I've got a complete kit with the original cable, bag and manual, along with > > the "blue hubs" on the handles. > > OK, what's the deal with the blue hubs? Both our working and spares SX- > 64 have them; were they prone to falling off, or only some were made > with them or something? The glue on the hubs is weak and comes off easily. Also, people pry off the hubs to fix the handle, find out that they were only attached with glue, decide not to bother in case the handle needs to get fixed again, and then lose the hubs. Of the three I've bought and the probably hundred-odd I've run into, maybe 20% still have the hubs on. I just need another keyboard, is all. SX #3 totally lacks one. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Flat text is just *never* what you want. -- stephen p spackman ------------- From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jul 7 07:43:08 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:43:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507070512.j675Cu1W080779@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > I suppose anything that's not a beige box: iMac, Internet appliances, > smartphones, tablets, early NAS boxes, etc.... I can't think of much on the > server side... perhaps the last models from companies that died or were > acquired! I think Suns will always be collectable, as they are now. There are some weird things they have made over the years that people seek. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Jul 7 07:49:03 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (birs23 at zeelandnet.nl) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:49:03 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Wanted : IBM PS/2 Model 50 or 80 In-Reply-To: References: <200507070512.j675Cu1W080779@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <53487.127.0.0.1.1120740543.squirrel@127.0.0.1> I am looking for an IBM PS/2 Model 50 or 80 Has to be cheap and preferably in the Netherlands. Anybody got a working one that they dont want anymore ? Stefan. From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jul 7 07:53:47 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I don't see how anything could be more documented than having the complete > engineering drawings of the whole machine. And that's what you normally > got on old DEC machines. > That's what I have of the PDP-11/70. Full drawings of every curcuit in the > machine. And then I have all the technical manuals for all subsystems that > document things in a more text-like manner as well. With IBM stuff, you get multiple drawings of every circuit of the machine. The basics are the ALDs (Automated Logic Drawings) - these are the printer generated, hard to read things that are the most detailed (all gates, all connections, all pins labelled). Then, to make thing easy, IBM had more traditional drawings, using nice art - still IBM specific, but much easier to read. Then there are (many) flow charts, timing diagrams, sometimes scope shots, and of course, warnings on where not to stick your tie. By volume, I would say IBM docs are two to three times larger than DECs. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From bill at timeguy.com Thu Jul 7 08:24:52 2005 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:24:52 -0500 Subject: Altair 680 switch style? In-Reply-To: <200507070406.j6746idY038910@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507070406.j6746idY038910@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050707132452.GB82724@outpost.timeguy.com> I recently bought an Altair 680 case on eBay, and am planning on trying to build some kind of 6800-based board to go in it. I'd like the front panel to be authentic-looking, and have been digging through my old Byte magazines and some web sites to try to figure out the switches they used. I've seen mostly bat-handled mini-toggles, but a few pictures have shown flattened bat-handles. I would also need to know the switch configuration (i.e. double-throw, single-throw, momentary, etc.) for the various switches. It seems like there's a lot less info around on the 680 than there is on the 8800, although I did find a pretty good article about the "new" Altair 680 in one of my "Best of Byte" volumes. Can anybody supply some switch info? Dimensions would be good; manufacturer and part number might be better. I wasn't really planning on building a 680, but I did my usual semi-annual search of eBay for the keyword "Altair" and there was this pretty (but empty) 680 case, and in a classic illustration of Pavlovian response, I clicked "bid"... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 7 08:31:30 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:31:30 +0000 Subject: FAQ? Message-ID: <1120743090.15438.82.camel@weka.localdomain> Where's the online FAQ that contains useful contributions by individuals? I've gone and lost the address and it doesn't seem to be reachable via www.classiccmp.org :-( ta J. From news at computercollector.com Thu Jul 7 08:41:03 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:41:03 -0400 Subject: FAQ? In-Reply-To: <1120743090.15438.82.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200507071346.j67DkXsa085979@keith.ezwind.net> http://www.classiccmp.org/kb/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 9:32 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: FAQ? Where's the online FAQ that contains useful contributions by individuals? I've gone and lost the address and it doesn't seem to be reachable via www.classiccmp.org :-( ta J. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jul 7 08:49:05 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:49:05 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <17101.13009.299465.672486@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> Size is probably a big issue, but DEC made some big machines and >> IBM made some small ones, and the DEC boxes still seem to get more >> attention from collectors. I think that the relative availability >> of DEC hardware, software, and documentation simply makes Tony> I suspect is is partly the doucmentation. DEC machines of this Tony> period tended to come with schematics rather than board-swapper Tony> guides (which is what the IBM service manuals I've seen Tony> were). There are thus plenty of PDP8, PDP11, etc shematics Tony> around. Tony> And IBM used custom parts a lot earlier than DEC. I've not seen Tony> a 370, but I'd be suprised if it was all off-the-shelf Tony> components. Unibus PDP11s PDP8s, etc tended to be. Judging by the mainframes section of the IBM history pages (http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/index.html) custom components arrived with the 360. That may also when schematics stopped appearing, which makes sense. On the other hand, I know we had schematics for our college 1620. Very hard to read schematics since they were printed on a line printer (an early version of "ASCII graphics"), but they were there nevertheless. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jul 7 08:56:13 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:56:13 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: <20050706201713.363f8c94.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <17101.13437.17742.668895@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: >> Even where IBM cards of that era used 'commodity' components, they >> were usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere >> mortal to figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor >> networks and resistors/capacitors (except those few that have >> color-code bands.) Vintage> DEC used standard components. Sort of -- if you ignore the bus transceivers. And of course the ASICs starting around 1980 or so. paul From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jul 7 09:04:21 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 10:04:21 -0400 Subject: Xerox 6085's In-Reply-To: <17101.13009.299465.672486@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20050706043357.20731.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> <17101.13009.299465.672486@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42CD3665.6060402@atarimuseum.com> I recently acquired a pair of 6085's, 1 keyboard/mouse. I have spoken with the guys over at Digibarn and they've been very helpful with info. The systems don't have monitors so getting them tested, and running again is at a standstill. I am looking for 1 or more monitors, any manuals and/or documents on the 6085's, Mesa and Viewpoint. If anyone has any spare boards, keyboards, basically anything that they may be interested in selling/trading, please let me know. I'm also still looking for a Star8010 as well. Thanks, Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.10/43 - Release Date: 7/6/2005 From news at computercollector.com Thu Jul 7 09:06:58 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:06:58 -0400 Subject: Almost on-topic: "legacy" computing Message-ID: <200507071412.j67ECNCp086671@keith.ezwind.net> Feature article in Computerworld magazine. http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/mainframes/story/0,1080 1,102863,00.html ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net Also see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 750 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jul 7 09:06:07 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:06:07 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: <200507070512.j675Cu1W080779@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <17101.14031.998115.374194@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> I suppose anything that's not a beige box: iMac, Internet >> appliances, smartphones, tablets, early NAS boxes, etc.... I can't >> think of much on the server side... perhaps the last models from >> companies that died or were acquired! William> I think Suns will always be collectable, as they are William> now. There are some weird things they have made over the William> years that people seek. One fun thing you could do with the right Sun guts is building a replica of the EFF DES cracker. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 09:29:25 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:29:25 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: <20050706201014.3e790a6a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 7/6/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I'm not saying they're rare or anything, but I've hardly seen any 286 or > 386 computers come through my warehouse in the past few months. The > trickle has definitely slowed down. If you think you might have a need > for a 286 or 386 in the future, you should probably be wanting to find a > nice representative system right around now. I was just using my Compaq SLT/286 the other night... -ethan From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 7 08:28:39 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 09:28:39 -0400 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <20050706223008.P13138@localhost> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050707092839.00989430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:33 PM 7/6/05 -0700, you wrote: >>> Well, I finally got around to attempting to re-spool this stupidly >>> designed tape. > >On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > >> By driving the outside of the tape spools at a constant speed >> (that's what the belt and drive puck do), rather than turning the spools >> themselves by their axles, that's exactly what you get. > >I agree with Tony. It's a brilliant design in fact. > >If the belts are dying at 1 to 5 years, OK, blame the >manufacturer. But if we're talking about 10+ year old tapes, >please -- replace them with new ones (tapes have a limited life) >or accept that they are vintage and stop whining. You're using >them well past their design life. I agreee but the problem is that a lot of us would like to recover the original HP software from the tapes since a lot of it virtually never appeared on anything but the tapes. In addition, the programs on tape could be "protected" and could not be copied. I know companies that run their entire operation off of such commercailly produced protected tapes and are willing to pay ANYTHING to keep them working since a failed tape will put them out of business. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 7 08:33:23 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 09:33:23 -0400 Subject: source of blank 82S123s? In-Reply-To: <200507062044230992.06492F0C@192.168.42.129> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050707093323.00a17430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:44 PM 7/6/05 -0700, you wrote: > Very hard to find in anything less than large (and very expensive) quantities. > > It may not be original equipment, but you could probably cobble up an adapter to let a UV-EPROM replace the OTP PROM device. Er, no. EPROMs won't work. These are the same Bi-Polar PROMs used in the HP 1000s and I thought of trying to use EPROMS too but EPROMS are too large and much too slow and have an entirely different pinout. I'm also finding that the PDP-8s use the same (or VERY similar) BiPolar PROMs. Perhaps we should consider a group purchase of a batch of blank BiPolar PROMS? Joe > > Happy hunting. > >*********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > >On 06-Jul-05 at 14:58 Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>I'm in search of a couple of blank 82S123s for my recently-aquired >>SuperElf boards. Who still carries such things? >> >>Googling on 'blank 82s123' did not turn up anything promising. >> >>Thanks, >> >>-ethan > > >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, >Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com >kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m >"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 7 08:39:55 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 09:39:55 -0400 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050707093955.00799100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:10 AM 7/7/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Well, I finally got around to attempting to re-spool this stupidly >> designed tape. > >It's actually avery ingenious design (it's the same design, basically, as >QIC tape cartridges). Remember you want a constant tape speed past the >head. By driving the outside of the tape spools at a constant speed >(that's what the belt and drive puck do), rather than turning the spools >themselves by their axles, that's exactly what you get. It avoids the >capstan, pinch roller, slipping clutches, etc, used in audio tape and >cassette recorders. The really ingenous part is that the belt attempts to rotate the take up spool about 10% faster then the other spool. That's what tightens up the tape if it ever gets slack. > >> >> Your description sounds like a different tape than what I was dealing >> with. The tape did not come off of either spool but was instead attached >> onto both spools. > >THere were several designs, sure... > >> >> At any rate, the stupid tensioning belt (whatever its called) broke on me. >> Oh well, fuck that tape. I'll try to read it anyway (is the tensioning >> belt necessary?) I also noticed numerous spots on the the tape where the > >Of course the belt is necessary. It's how the tape is driven. You can >borrow one from another tape cartridge. Good luck! I could never replace a belt and make it work :=/ > >> oxide had flaked off, so any re-attempt may well be futile. Whoever > >Obviously you've lost data where that oxide is missing. You'll also have >problems becuase these drives use optincal BOT/EOT detection (there's a >small hole in the tape, a mirror as part of the cartridge housing, and a >bulb/photodetector in the drive). The system will think it's got to the >end of the tape if it finds a clear spot. > >> designed these tapes is a moron. I can't imagine how impossibly expensive >> it must've been to manufacture them. > >See above. Tell you what, you see if you can come up with a better design. Better yes, cheaper - no. > >> >> I hate computers. > >Feel free to send me all your collection. Sellam would need a container ship to move all of his collection! He should ship it all here to Florida and avoid that nasty Atlantic crossing :-) Joe > >-tony > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 7 09:25:16 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 10:25:16 -0400 Subject: Time to change the Subject Line! Re: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: <754177864d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <1120502180.10023.68.camel@weka.localdomain> <42C96493.1C70AEA5@rain.org> <1120502180.10023.68.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050707102516.00799360@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:20 AM 7/7/05 +0100, you wrote: >In message <1120502180.10023.68.camel at weka.localdomain> > Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Most of the stuff I get (albeit for the museum, not personally) comes >> from local usenet groups, > >Tried that one - most of the uk.leeds.*.forsale type NGs seem to be full of >asshat spammers and such. Oh how I miss my spam-filtered cis-dfn newsfeed :( You're right. The asshole SPAMMERS have virtually kiiled the news groups! But I've had some luck getting items for specific systems by posting on news-groups. I got a lot of offers for systems, manuals, etc when I posted on the Z-100 news groups. Blanket request for "old computers" or Ebay-able Altairs are meet with distain but if you show a real interest in a particular system you'll usually find someone willing to help or donate items. The other thing that helps is to set up a website and ask for unwanted systems on it. Again, blanket request for everything old are generaly ignored but if you show a strong interest in something and ask for specific systems you'll get offers. I got three of my Intel MDSs that way. Also I offer to BUY the things that I'm interested and didn't pretend to be museum and ask for the stuff for free. I'm amazed at the gall that some people display when they ask for valuable systems and not only want me to give it to them but also expect me to pay to ship it to them!!! A good example is the guy in Hawaii that bugged me for months wanting me to GIVE him my IBM 5100 and pay the shipping (by air!) from Florida to Hawaii! > >> or the university - it's at the stage now > >I think I mentioned the "destroy everything" attitude the local universities >and colleges share. Recycling is a big thing here in the US. You should push that aspect to the businesses and universities. But you need to do it on large batches and not just on the one or two computers that you may want. My buddy that owns the surplus store in Melbourne gets a LOT of his stuff for free from companies and individuals that want to see the stuff recycled instead of filling up landfills. He's just gotten a deal to get TONS of computers from KSC for FREE for exactly that reason. FWIW Most of the stuff that he gets is modernish PC but I've gotten a LOT of goodies from him. He's the one that turned me onto the PDP-8 stuff that Thom had. He's also the one that I got the 20 or so Intel 830s with bubble memory from. And just last Tuesday I found a boxfull of DEC cards and a pile of Cromemco S-100 cards in his board scrap. I wasn't there to save the Cromemco but the cards are certainly worth getting. The important thing to keep in mind about places like his is that they don't keep the stuff around any longer than possible. It's common for stuff to come off the delivery trucks and go directly to tear down. Particularly the OLD stuff (the kind of stuff that we want!) So you have to check them FREQUENTLY. When it gets really busy (like it has been for the last three weeks) I go there everyday if at all possible. Even then things come in and get torn down before I find them! BTW this brings up an important point. I've gone out with a lot of different computer hunters and I was shocked to find out that most of you fail to look through the baskets of cables and old boards. I ALWAYS find lots of goodies in them! For example, I went with Gary Hildebrand to computer recycling place in Topeka Kansas and he had just been asking me for some 1Mb ICs for the Commodore Amiga computers. When we got the the recycler's we looked through all the computers (I found a black B&H Apple), then I went and looked through their board scrap and found not just the ICs that he wanted but they were also on original Amiga boards! Gary was shocked! He said that he'd been to this same place many times before but never thought to look in the board scrap! Besides computer cables, cable scrap almost always includes hings like logic analyzer pods and oscilloscope probes that make good trading material. > >> where the local population seem to know to chuck things this way. I've >> only recently joined the local freecycle group, so I'm not sure how good >> that'll be in terms of stuff yet. > >I'm on the Leeds freecycle group - haven't seen anything interesting yet. > >> Landfill / scrapyards in the UK don't seem to be anything like their US >> counterparts according to what I've seen on this list - there just >> aren't items there for the taking. In most places in the US you are NOT allowed to hunt for anything in the landfills and will be arrested if you take anything out. Yes they are VERY strict! The key to sucessful computer hunting is to find the companies that buy or are given old electronics for recycling (not the get-rich-quick 3rd party resellers, although you can OCCASIONALLY get a good deal from them). The recyclers tear the stuff down for the aluminium and other materials and they only get pennies per pound for scrap so they're frequently willing to sell the intact stuff for a reasonable price as long as it doesn't contain any **GOLD**. They get real protective over things like the old HP and Tektronics that contain very much visible gold or heavy aluminium. Joe > >I've noticed that too :-/ > >> There is stuff out there anyway - you just need to give people a prod >> every once in a while and get yourself noticed as someone who can give >> this stuff a home. > >Time to put something of a virtual classiccmp museum on my website then, I >guess. > >Later. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI >... Even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn now and again. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 09:38:44 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:38:44 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <17101.13437.17742.668895@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20050706201713.363f8c94.chenmel@earthlink.net> <17101.13437.17742.668895@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 7/7/05, Paul Koning wrote: > Vintage> DEC used standard components. > > Sort of -- if you ignore the bus transceivers. Some were proprietary DEC (DC003, DC004, DC005, DC013...), but some were somewhat standard (Nat'l Semi 8640, 8641...) Unfortunately, even some of the "standard" chips that they used (7438, 7401?) were graded for leakage current (not that someone couldn't do it now, but it adds to the complexity and expense). Of course, one _can_ take risks and violate the letter of the bus specs and try some other sort of part, and it will probably work for a small system, but it also has a chance of not working in the larger multi-backplane kinds of systems. -ethan From mmaginnis at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 09:48:42 2005 From: mmaginnis at gmail.com (Michael Maginnis) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 08:48:42 -0600 Subject: Altair 8800 Layout In-Reply-To: <42CB0CF4.7000605@kallisti.de> References: <42CB0CF4.7000605@kallisti.de> Message-ID: On 7/5/05, Alex Bihlmaier wrote: > Hi! > > > > I am searching for the layout of an old Altair 8800 home computer. > A friend of mine is reading Steven Levys "Hackers" and is fascinated > about the Altair 880 homebrew computer. > > I searched the net with google about this computer but i cannot find > sth. useful. > > > Anyone here with infos about the Altair 8800? > > > grtx from germany, > thalunil > A googe search for "altair 8800" turned up more than 60,000 hits... - Mike From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 10:13:17 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:13:17 -0500 Subject: source of blank 82S123s? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050707093323.00a17430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200507062044230992.06492F0C@192.168.42.129> <3.0.6.32.20050707093323.00a17430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 7/7/05, Joe R. wrote: > > It may not be original equipment, but you could probably cobble up an > adapter to let a UV-EPROM replace the OTP PROM device. > > Er, no. EPROMs won't work. These are the same Bi-Polar PROMs used in the > HP 1000s and I thought of trying to use EPROMS too but EPROMS are too large > and much too slow and have an entirely different pinout. I'm also finding > that the PDP-8s use the same (or VERY similar) BiPolar PROMs. In _this_ case, an EPROM would work fine - a 1.7MHz 1802 will in no way flake out if an EPROM appears at address $0000 rather than a bi-polar PROM. These designs used 82S123s because a) in 1977, 1702As were somewhat expensive, b) 82S123s use less board real estate, c) 32 bytes is enough for an 1802 ROM Monitor program, etc. What I'd thought of making, though, since it's not something that I'm going to be doing massive software development on, is a _GAL_ replacement - perhaps an 8-bit tri-state buffer and a 16V8 with the various bits (256) encoded as logic equations. Yes, an EPROM would work, but I happen to have a tub of GALs, and the daughter card wouldn't be any larger. It's the trick Commodore used with AUTOCONFIG on the Amiga - a PAL to simulate a 4-bit ROM that held the manufacturer/device codes requested of each board at power-on. I know it would be tedious, but it should work. > Perhaps we should consider a group purchase of a batch of blank BiPolar > PROMS? Perhaps. I myself wouldn't need more than about 10 82S123s, and a similar number of whatever PROMs are on the OMNIBUS KM8AA (if I ever wanted to write a custom bootstrap for some as-yet-unbuilt OMNIBUS SCSI card). Other than that, I'm not a big consumer of PROMs. The last time I burned one was probably 1985. -ethan From bqt at Update.UU.SE Thu Jul 7 10:24:24 2005 From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:24:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: DEC documentation In-Reply-To: <200507071440.j67EdZQr045240@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507071440.j67EdZQr045240@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 William Donzelli wrote: > > I don't see how anything could be more documented than having the complete > > engineering drawings of the whole machine. And that's what you normally > > got on old DEC machines. > > That's what I have of the PDP-11/70. Full drawings of every curcuit in the > > machine. And then I have all the technical manuals for all subsystems that > > document things in a more text-like manner as well. > > With IBM stuff, you get multiple drawings of every circuit of the machine. > The basics are the ALDs (Automated Logic Drawings) - these are the printer > generated, hard to read things that are the most detailed (all gates, all > connections, all pins labelled). Then, to make thing easy, IBM had more > traditional drawings, using nice art - still IBM specific, but much easier > to read. Then there are (many) flow charts, timing diagrams, sometimes > scope shots, and of course, warnings on where not to stick your tie. Hmm. I don't have any printer generated drawings, true. Not sure I'd want to. The normal drawings are pretty big, and lots of paper. They contain every wrire, every pin, and every connection. Also photographic layouts of PCBs. There are also flow charts and timing diagrams in there. In the service and maintenance manuals you have more descriptions, including scope shots and other kind of service information. Lots of trobule shooting information as well. So I still can't see what more documentation there could exist. But I admit that I don't have any experience of IBM hardware. I just can't imagine what more information there could be than what I have. And that was what was delivered with the machine. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 10:29:03 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:29:03 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: References: <42CCA158.7000300@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 7/6/05, plato computer wrote: > I think that commodore went wrong in three areas. > > 1. they never put a standart rs232 port on their stuff. sure you could > use 1488's , but that was not the point. There was no real rs232. They sold a cartridge for a reasonable amount ($30? $40?) that hung on the userport fingers that had reasonable level shifters. I used it extensively for machine-to-machine transfers. > 2. The disk drives were basically computers to themselves; That made things somewhat expensive, but it also made them standard. I don't know why they chose to go that route with the 2040 dual disk drives, but once they got on that train, they stayed with it all the way to the end. I don't see how they went "wrong" with this, unless you mean that it priced the drives out of most people's hands. This was certainly the case for the PET, where a dual disk drive cost over twice what a 32K computer cost. My first floppy drive was a 1540 - free to me (through my job), but it was $595 on the street, same as a C-64 when it first came out. Now what _was_ a mistake was how slow the serial drives were. True IEEE-488 wasn't a speed demon, but it wasn't awful - 8-bit parallel transfers about as fast as a 1MHz CPU can make them - hard to do better without fast DMA hardware. The problem came about through a series of management decisions (orders not to be held hostage to a cable vendor) and technical problems (the 6522 VIA was supposed to do the serial/parallel conversion but there were problems with the chip), but the end result was one of the slowest mass-storage peripherals on record. With the right chips, though, it would have worked much better. > 3. 40 columns just ain't cool. 80 is the way to go. In the case of the C-64, 40 columns makes perfect sense - it was marketed to be attached to a TV, and a TV can't resolve 80 columns. Even when the Amiga came out, it had a 64 column mode (preferences button) for TV use to compliment the 80 column mode for monitor use. > So..... what else? Is Anyone here who was integrally involved in the > design of the machine? I was not involved with Commodore in any way except as a third-party developer for the C-64 in early 1982 (we had S/N S00002007 (with the "lightpen interrupt bug" in the VIC-II chip) that was traded in on S/N S00002345 that I still have). I have done extensive hacking over the years, though. -ethan From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jul 7 10:43:31 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <17101.13009.299465.672486@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > Judging by the mainframes section of the IBM history pages > (http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/index.html) custom components > arrived with the 360. That may also when schematics stopped > appearing, which makes sense. For the mainframes, I am not sure when chip level schematics stopped appearing. They were available in the late 1970s, with the 3031 (a TRUELY huge stack of paperwork). S/360s and S/370s had very full maintenance sets, as did S/3s, and pretty much all of the tapes, disks, punches, readers, control units, and so forth. So, no, schematics definitely did not stop appearing at the advent of the S/360. I suspect they went away with the 308x line (which makes sense). I do not think S/1s had full chip level schematics, as it was a board swapper family, but the internals were very open. That was the point of the family - finally IBM agreed (and encouraged) 3rd party support. They actually managed to get some, as well (CDC under the Cambex name, for example) before the line died. The smaller machines (S/36 and such) were board swappers, I think. I have never seen full maintenance docs on them. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 7 10:48:36 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:48:36 +0000 Subject: FAQ? In-Reply-To: <200507071346.j67DkXsa085979@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507071346.j67DkXsa085979@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1120751316.15420.122.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 09:41 -0400, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > http://www.classiccmp.org/kb/ Thanks :) Next question - how do I add comments? Nowhere does it say I need to be logged in, but at the moment I'm getting "submission failed" with no useful error message. Anyone else had any luck? cheers Jules From alanp at snowmoose.com Thu Jul 7 11:02:07 2005 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 09:02:07 -0700 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507071530.j67FTtLd045794@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507071530.j67FTtLd045794@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42CD51FF.3070409@snowmoose.com> Tom Jennings wrote: >On Tue, 5 Jul 2005, William Maddox wrote: > >> It's frustrating how little >>of the older non-DEC minicomputer material seems to be >>available. >> >> > >I always figured it was you conspiratorial DEC people, buying up >other-make stuff and destroying it to make a one-DEC-world. > > I knew it was something like that! I have been looking for a Burroughs B1000 machine for maybe seven years. I missed a local one that went into surplus about a year after started collecting. I heard of another one in Ohio that I think a museum got. (The museum queried me to see if I had found one.) Other than that, I haven't heard of any. I have a bunch of Burroughs B20 workstations that I bought a couple of years ago, mostly to save from the scrap heap. Haven't been able to find any more or any software for them. (Someone is Colorado offered to send me some software, then disappeared, so, obviously, it is a conspiracy.) I also collect Sun shoebox systems (IPCs, IPXs, Classics). Since I work for Sun, I will make sure that I have software and documentation on those systems. alan From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 11:02:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <200507070512.j675Cu1W080779@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > So, what from today will be collectible in 2015 or 2020? > > I suppose anything that's not a beige box: iMac, Internet appliances, > smartphones, tablets, early NAS boxes, etc.... I can't think of much on the > server side... perhaps the last models from companies that died or were > acquired! You forgot: HANDHELDS!!! My, my, for the guy who wrote up the best history on PDAs ever, I'm surprised you left this out ;) Also: digital cameras, all the stupid doodads that long defunct internet bubble companies came up with in the late 1990s, network computers, MP3 players, etc. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 11:03:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:03:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Programming Language Inventor or Serial Killer? Message-ID: http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 7 11:15:02 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Programming Language Inventor or Serial Killer? In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Jul 7, 5 09:03:05 am" Message-ID: <200507071615.JAA16098@floodgap.com> > http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/ w00t, I got 7/10! Ha ha! I will slaughter you all, I mean, I did well. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Everyone is entitled to my opinion. -- James Carpenter --------------------- From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 11:18:10 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Finds Thanks to Networking In-Reply-To: <42CCC34D.52535449@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I got a call tonight and picked up an Eagle IIe computer, Lisa 2 (3 1/2" > drive), Vic 20, Bunker Ramo micro/mini with the possibility of picking > up a couple of Polymorphic Toasters (the orange S-100 machine.) I will > be picking up two more Bunker Ramo computers on Monday. Marvin, What do the Bunker Ramo computers look like? I have a mini that is rather large (about 20" cubed) and heavy. The front panel has pushbuttons instead of switches. An odd beast. > These Bunker Ramo computers were apparently used in a brokerage house > and the possibility exists that he has the docs for them. I don't have a > model number right now, but is anyone familiar with Bunker-Ramo and the > computers they made? I know nothing about it. I got it in a trade years ago. I'm told it was used in a banking environment. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Jul 7 11:28:43 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:28:43 -0700 Subject: cables Message-ID: I have some cables that might be interesting to CCers: Tek ERGO cable (X-term cable with keyboard/mouse plugs on it and 3BNC) DECstation/VAXstation/[?VAX3100?] SCSI -> Cent50 cable IBM PS/2 (narrow) SCSI terminator (micro-ribbon?) Looking for DSSI ((?)VAX 4000 series -> HSD50) cable and HSD50 (microribbon) terminator smallish DG AViiON (Moto 88k) (one of the desktops or smaller tower models) No, I don't expect to trade a cable for an AViiON, but I will do partial trades or just take the free advertising (same goes for the DSSI stuff) Scott Quinn From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Jul 7 11:30:14 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:30:14 -0700 Subject: seeking the California gentleman with the ex-FAA Apollos Message-ID: <52885b511d9ca0082fe211342db53432@valleyimplants.com> I know I've talked with you about DOMAIN/OS, but I've misplaced your e-mail. Scott Quinn From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 11:34:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:34:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Time to change the Subject Line! Re: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050707102516.00799360@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Joe R. wrote: > BTW this brings up an important point. I've gone out with a lot of > different computer hunters and I was shocked to find out that most of you > fail to look through the baskets of cables and old boards. I ALWAYS find I'm not surprised. It's a lot of work, and most people are lazy. The random crap bins are where I find some of my best stuff. > lots of goodies in them! For example, I went with Gary Hildebrand to > computer recycling place in Topeka Kansas and he had just been asking me > for some 1Mb ICs for the Commodore Amiga computers. When we got the the > recycler's we looked through all the computers (I found a black B&H Apple), > then I went and looked through their board scrap and found not just the ICs > that he wanted but they were also on original Amiga boards! Gary was > shocked! He said that he'd been to this same place many times before but > never thought to look in the board scrap! Besides computer cables, cable > scrap almost always includes hings like logic analyzer pods and > oscilloscope probes that make good trading material. One of these days I'll find that Apple 1 board in the scrap boards bin :) > strict! The key to sucessful computer hunting is to find the companies > that buy or are given old electronics for recycling (not the get-rich-quick Or you can start your own... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 11:46:29 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:46:29 -0500 Subject: Time to change the Subject Line! Re: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050707102516.00799360@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 7/7/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > One of these days I'll find that Apple 1 board in the scrap boards bin :) Isn't there a list member who worked for HP or some other (non-Apple) Bay-area employer that passed up an Apple I, unassembled, in a baggie, for like $5 at a garage sale many years ago? the "non-Apple" is part of the story, because, ISTR, they passed it up _because_ it was an Apple and they worked for "the other guys". Ring any bells? -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 11:54:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FAQ? In-Reply-To: <1120751316.15420.122.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 09:41 -0400, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' > wrote: > > http://www.classiccmp.org/kb/ > > Thanks :) > > Next question - how do I add comments? Nowhere does it say I need to be > logged in, but at the moment I'm getting "submission failed" with no > useful error message. Anyone else had any luck? I submit articles regularly. I never have problems. I just submitted two articles and it worked fine. Might've been a temporary glitch. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 11:57:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Time to change the Subject Line! Re: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/7/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > One of these days I'll find that Apple 1 board in the scrap boards bin :) > > Isn't there a list member who worked for HP or some other (non-Apple) > Bay-area employer that passed up an Apple I, unassembled, in a baggie, > for like $5 at a garage sale many years ago? the "non-Apple" is part > of the story, because, ISTR, they passed it up _because_ it was an > Apple and they worked for "the other guys". > > Ring any bells? That was me. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 11:57:25 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Time to change the Subject Line! Re: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 7/7/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > One of these days I'll find that Apple 1 board in the scrap boards bin :) > > Isn't there a list member who worked for HP or some other (non-Apple) > Bay-area employer that passed up an Apple I, unassembled, in a baggie, > for like $5 at a garage sale many years ago? the "non-Apple" is part > of the story, because, ISTR, they passed it up _because_ it was an > Apple and they worked for "the other guys". > > Ring any bells? Just kidding. Never heard this story. Sounds apocryphal. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 7 12:08:39 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 13:08:39 -0400 Subject: Time to change the Subject Line! Re: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050707102516.00799360@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050707130839.009bd310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:46 AM 7/7/05 -0500, you wrote: >On 7/7/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> One of these days I'll find that Apple 1 board in the scrap boards bin :) > >Isn't there a list member who worked for HP or some other (non-Apple) >Bay-area employer that passed up an Apple I, unassembled, in a baggie, >for like $5 at a garage sale many years ago? the "non-Apple" is part >of the story, because, ISTR, they passed it up _because_ it was an >Apple and they worked for "the other guys". > >Ring any bells? > That wasn't me but about 15 or 20 years ago I saw an ad in a local newspaper (IIRC) for an Apple 1 for something like $75. I remember thinking that it was a real part of computer history and someone should buy it and save it. Now I wish I'd done it! Joe From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 12:11:20 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:11:20 -0500 Subject: Time to change the Subject Line! Re: E-bay complaints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/7/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Isn't there a list member who... passed up an Apple I... > > That was me. Ow! -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 7 12:21:18 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 10:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: B1000 Message-ID: <20050707172118.5089617D0A4@bitsavers.org> Alan Perry Wrote: > I have been looking for a Burroughs B1000 machine for maybe seven years. Have you ever posted this fact to the list? Two years ago, I made a cross-country trip, and one of the stops was to one of the last people who was doing third party service on 19xx's in Louisville. I took all of the maint docs, some of the packs and all of the boards from a 19xx because they were cleaning out a storage unit. I had several more stops to make, and had no room for the complete 1900 that he had. The 1900 CHM has came from a hospital in Kentucky and was picked up by someone who was interested in the machine and drove there and back to pick it up. > I have a bunch of Burroughs B20 workstations Aren't these rebadged Convergent NGENs ? Marvin Johnson has a bunch of docs on these. I didn't realize how sophisticated the OS was on these, probably should see about getting the docs scanned, if he still has the stuff. From kfergason at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 12:23:05 2005 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:23:05 -0500 Subject: Programming Language Inventor or Serial Killer? In-Reply-To: <200507071615.JAA16098@floodgap.com> References: <200507071615.JAA16098@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <78ff9a21050707102340b3b089@mail.gmail.com> On 7/7/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/ > > w00t, I got 7/10! Ha ha! I will slaughter you all, I mean, I did well. > 8/10. but i have a book on the top 100 criminals of the century at home... kelly From tomj at wps.com Thu Jul 7 13:50:58 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Joe R. wrote: > Subject: Re: Computer Museum > > I got this today from a from a guy that says that he's planning on > setting up a computer museum in the Orlando area. Interested parties > should contact him directly. >> We are only in the initial planning stage, thus we need to know what >> equipment is available. Locating, and subsequently gathering, the collection >> is the longest process, so we are starting it first. Umm, not to be cynical, but I think the first, the longest, the most difficult task, would be securing funding in order to continue existing. Sorry, but this sounds like a personal wet dream. Those are fine, but as they say, keep it in your pants. Even the San Diego museum had a hard go at it, and they are pros. A pile of stuff does not a museum make. The Maslin collection is a good example. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 7 13:53:35 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: source of blank 82S123s? Message-ID: <200507071853.LAA24496@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I doubt that the SuperElf requires high speed as needed by the HP. For the SuperElf, I'd suspect that EPROMs would be fine. Dwight >From: "Joe R." > >At 08:44 PM 7/6/05 -0700, you wrote: >> Very hard to find in anything less than large (and very expensive) >quantities. >> >> It may not be original equipment, but you could probably cobble up an >adapter to let a UV-EPROM replace the OTP PROM device. > > Er, no. EPROMs won't work. These are the same Bi-Polar PROMs used in the >HP 1000s and I thought of trying to use EPROMS too but EPROMS are too large >and much too slow and have an entirely different pinout. I'm also finding >that the PDP-8s use the same (or VERY similar) BiPolar PROMs. > > Perhaps we should consider a group purchase of a batch of blank BiPolar >PROMS? > > Joe > > > >> >> Happy hunting. >> >>*********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** >> >>On 06-Jul-05 at 14:58 Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>>I'm in search of a couple of blank 82S123s for my recently-aquired >>>SuperElf boards. Who still carries such things? >>> >>>Googling on 'blank 82s123' did not turn up anything promising. >>> >>>Thanks, >>> >>>-ethan >> >> >>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >>Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, >>Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com >>kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m >>"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with >surreal ports?" >> >> >> > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 7 13:59:04 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 11:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive Message-ID: <200507071859.LAA24500@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > >At 12:10 AM 7/7/05 +0100, you wrote: >>> >>> Well, I finally got around to attempting to re-spool this stupidly >>> designed tape. >> >>It's actually avery ingenious design (it's the same design, basically, as >>QIC tape cartridges). Remember you want a constant tape speed past the >>head. By driving the outside of the tape spools at a constant speed >>(that's what the belt and drive puck do), rather than turning the spools >>themselves by their axles, that's exactly what you get. It avoids the >>capstan, pinch roller, slipping clutches, etc, used in audio tape and >>cassette recorders. > > The really ingenous part is that the belt attempts to rotate the take up >spool about 10% faster then the other spool. That's what tightens up the >tape if it ever gets slack. > > >> >>> >>> Your description sounds like a different tape than what I was dealing >>> with. The tape did not come off of either spool but was instead attached >>> onto both spools. >> >>THere were several designs, sure... >> >>> >>> At any rate, the stupid tensioning belt (whatever its called) broke on me. >>> Oh well, fuck that tape. I'll try to read it anyway (is the tensioning >>> belt necessary?) I also noticed numerous spots on the the tape where the >> >>Of course the belt is necessary. It's how the tape is driven. You can >>borrow one from another tape cartridge. > > Good luck! I could never replace a belt and make it work :=/ Hi Joe I have but I'll admit it was not easy. It is real easy to get the tape mangled. I've also repaired the roller at the corners on one. I don't know how it is done at the factory but they must have a special jig to get it all done right. Dwight ---snip--- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:27:24 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 19:27:24 +0000 Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> Message-ID: <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 11:50 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Joe R. wrote: > > > Subject: Re: Computer Museum > > > > I got this today from a from a guy that says that he's planning on > > setting up a computer museum in the Orlando area. Interested parties > > should contact him directly. > > > >> We are only in the initial planning stage, thus we need to know what > >> equipment is available. Locating, and subsequently gathering, the collection > >> is the longest process, so we are starting it first. > > Umm, not to be cynical, but I think the first, the longest, the > most difficult task, would be securing funding in order to > continue existing. Depends on what their situation is with storage / display space I suppose. Public liability insurance is apparently cheap (at least over here), so getting something up and running isn't that difficult *if there's space available*. If they have some space in mind, very little cash would be needed at least for the first year or so - surviving beyond that might be harder without some decent sponsorship. Problem over here is that we're on a crowded island and the Government place use of buildings for museum space pretty much at the bottom of the ladder; I imagine that isn't so much of a problem in much of the US. Personally I wouldn't give anything to anyone who didn't have space for it already though - they should be able to amass enough of a collection first to know if it's viable, get some display space, and then put out an appeal to enthusiasts. cheers Jules From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Thu Jul 7 14:31:25 2005 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:31:25 -0400 Subject: Programming Language Inventor or Serial Killer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52DB8200-9ACA-489A-9B72-D138E5797B8A@mind-to-mind.com> On Jul 7, 2005, at 12:03 PM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/ Grrr. Only 8 out of 10 right... 2 false positives... From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 7 14:21:33 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:21:33 -0400 Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050707152133.009ceb90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:50 AM 7/7/05 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Joe R. wrote: > >> Subject: Re: Computer Museum >> >> I got this today from a from a guy that says that he's planning on >> setting up a computer museum in the Orlando area. Interested parties >> should contact him directly. > > >>> We are only in the initial planning stage, thus we need to know what >>> equipment is available. Locating, and subsequently gathering, the collection >>> is the longest process, so we are starting it first. > >Umm, not to be cynical, but I think the first, the longest, the >most difficult task, would be securing funding in order to >continue existing. I agree and I'm waiting to see what happens with this attempt. Supposedly he has the backing of ITT Institute. Or it may just be another attempt to see what some guy can get people to give him. He keeps asking about donations and wants a list of what I have but I've told him that I'd be willing to LOAN him computers and asked what kind of stuff he's looking for and I haven't gotten a satisfactory reply yet. Time will tell. Joe > >Sorry, but this sounds like a personal wet dream. Those are fine, >but as they say, keep it in your pants. > >Even the San Diego museum had a hard go at it, and they are pros. > >A pile of stuff does not a museum make. The Maslin collection is a >good example. > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 7 14:30:28 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:30:28 -0400 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <200507071859.LAA24500@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050707153028.009c3990@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:59 AM 7/7/05 -0700, Dwight wrote: >>From: "Joe R." >> >>At 12:10 AM 7/7/05 +0100, you wrote: >>>> >>>> Well, I finally got around to attempting to re-spool this stupidly >>>> designed tape. >>> >>>It's actually avery ingenious design (it's the same design, basically, as >>>QIC tape cartridges). Remember you want a constant tape speed past the >>>head. By driving the outside of the tape spools at a constant speed >>>(that's what the belt and drive puck do), rather than turning the spools >>>themselves by their axles, that's exactly what you get. It avoids the >>>capstan, pinch roller, slipping clutches, etc, used in audio tape and >>>cassette recorders. >> >> The really ingenous part is that the belt attempts to rotate the take up >>spool about 10% faster then the other spool. That's what tightens up the >>tape if it ever gets slack. >> >> >>> >>>> >>>> Your description sounds like a different tape than what I was dealing >>>> with. The tape did not come off of either spool but was instead attached >>>> onto both spools. That really wouldn't make any difference as long as the drive stops when it sees the BOT/EOT hole and doesn't run the tape off the spool. >>> >>>THere were several designs, sure... >>> >>>> >>>> At any rate, the stupid tensioning belt (whatever its called) broke on me. >>>> Oh well, fuck that tape. I'll try to read it anyway (is the tensioning >>>> belt necessary?) I also noticed numerous spots on the the tape where the >>> >>>Of course the belt is necessary. It's how the tape is driven. You can >>>borrow one from another tape cartridge. >> >> Good luck! I could never replace a belt and make it work :=/ > >Hi Joe > I have but I'll admit it was not easy. It is real easy to get >the tape mangled. I've also repaired the roller at the corners >on one. > I don't know how it is done at the factory but they must have >a special jig to get it all done right. Oh, I've gotten them back together (but you need about six hands to do it)! But even though they're back together exactly like an original they would never tighten up the slack. They'd run (till the slack got caught and wrapped under the tape on the take-up spool) but simply never take the slack out of the tape. Perhaps if I could run them at a slow speed the slack would eventually work it self out without getting caught and they'd be ok. But to tell the truth I've never had much luck with tape drives and I dispise the things! Joe From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 14:58:50 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:58:50 -0500 Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050707152133.009ceb90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <3.0.6.32.20050707152133.009ceb90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 7/7/05, Joe R. wrote: > I agree and I'm waiting to see what happens with this attempt. > Supposedly he has the backing of ITT Institute. Or it may just be another > attempt to see what some guy can get people to give him. He keeps asking > about donations and wants a list of what I have but I've told him that I'd > be willing to LOAN him computers and asked what kind of stuff he's looking > for and I haven't gotten a satisfactory reply yet. Time will tell. Indeed... getting (most) stuff is the easy part. Space/money is always the kicker. -ethan From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu Jul 7 15:16:19 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 13:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050707201619.80557.qmail@web30613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Oddly enough I recently had to try to come up with a (theoretical) business case for building a Museum of Computer Technology. Thinking about it I settled on location as being as key a driver as anything else. It's hard to imagine the Computer Museum of East Spit, PA (which is where I live) attracting donations or funding, or even state grants for preservation projects, but if you can tie into an area that has a direct connection to technology or to well-know technologists I think you'd be in a better position to convince benefactors or donors to contribute. Dave. --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > Indeed... getting (most) stuff is the easy part. > Space/money is > always the kicker. > > -ethan > > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:15:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:15:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jul 6, 5 05:16:15 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I hate computers. > > > > Feel free to send me all your collection. > > Come get it. It's yours. Bring along six 40' shipping containers and a > crew of 7. I'll give you 24 hours and you have to take all or nothing. Which part of 'send' do you not understand :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:17:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:17:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: <20050706194415.0cd68265.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jul 6, 5 07:44:15 pm Message-ID: > On this topic, I recently located an original IBM Monochrome monitor, so > for me it's now just a matter of pulling out the EGA Techref and > jumpering the IBM EGA card in my AT for EGA monochrome and plugging the One thing a lot of people forget : There's a jumper on the board near the DE9 connector which selects where pin 2 of said DE9 goes (LSB of one of the colours for an EGA monitor, ground for an MDA or CGA monitor). If you set that to the EGA position and then connect an MDA (or for that matter CGA) monitor, you're shorting an output line to ground via the monitor cable. It probably won't do any harm, but why risk it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:19:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:19:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP-11/23+ and rx-02 drives, need help!!! In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jul 6, 5 08:08:52 pm Message-ID: > > I'm not a 'Qbus person', much prefering Unibus machines, but IIRC one of > > the ST506/RX50 controllers (RQDX1 I think) had to be the last device on > > the bus since it didn't pass on grants. If that's the controller you > > have, then the RXV21 would mever get BGs or NPGs and woul;d probably do > > what you're seeing. Try putting the RXV21 first... > > Especially since the boot ROMs pull the boot sector off the floppy > without interrupts. You should see some activity, hear heads, Err, yes, but data transfer on the RXV21 always used DMA (NPR/NPG signals). If the RXV21 never sees a non-processor grant, it'll never transfer any data. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:23:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:23:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050706201713.363f8c94.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jul 6, 5 08:17:13 pm Message-ID: > Even where IBM cards of that era used 'commodity' components, they were > usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere mortal to > figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor networks and > resistors/capacitors (except those few that have color-code bands.) Yes, but it's easy to measure the value of a resistor or capacitor, and even resistor networks can generally be figured out. HP used custom house-coded resistor netowrks in some of their products and it didn't stop me... In the case of semiconductors, both HP and DEC (only transistors and diodes AFAIK) used house-coded parts. But DEC printed the equivalents in the printset (which is generally not too hard to find) and HP equivalents lists have got out.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:29:33 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:29:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: from "plato computer" at Jul 6, 5 08:49:15 pm Message-ID: > I think that commodore went wrong in three areas. > > 1. they never put a standart rs232 port on their stuff. sure you could > use 1488's , but that was not the point. There was no real rs232. True... I have much the same moan about certain HP machines where the HPIB port is built-in (or an easy-to-find module), but the RS232 port is almost impossible to find now. > > 2. The disk drives were basically computers to themselves; Have you ever opened an HP91xx drive box? There's normally a 68B09 inside... > > 3. 40 columns just ain't cool. 80 is the way to go. Yes, but rememebr that Commodore were going for the home market, and wanted to be able to use a normal TV set as a monitor. I've not found a TV that can legibly display 80 columns if you feed the signal in to the aerial input (composite video inputs were not at all common then). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:38:36 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:38:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: from "Johnny Billquist" at Jul 7, 5 02:14:42 pm Message-ID: > > For the pre-1978 (or so) machines, you can pretty much debug down to the > > chip level. With the right Blue Binders, pretty much every last part is > > detailed to a silly extent. WAY more detailed than DEC docs. > > I don't see how anything could be more documented than having the complete > engineering drawings of the whole machine. And that's what you normally Err, what about ROM dumps, microcode sources, component layouts, PCB track patterns, and the like. To be fair, DEC printsets normally included that sort of information too... > got on old DEC machines. > That's what I have of the PDP-11/70. Full drawings of every curcuit in the > machine. And then I have all the technical manuals for all subsystems that > document things in a more text-like manner as well. You may be clever enough to be able to work everything out from the schematics alone, but I find the technical manuals useful too. If you want an interesting puzzle, try figuring out the floating point processor (at least the 11/45 one, I guess the 11/70 is similar) from the ROM dumps and schematics alone. It will take you quite a while I suspect. I think that's what was meant by 'more detailed'. The DEC docs are in one sense complete, but you may have to think quite hard to udnerstand them. IBM docs, from what I've heard, explain things really well, but they are non-trivial to find. > > But as usual: when in doubt, the drawings are the definitive authority. Err, the _machine_ is the ultimate authority. There may be ECOs and FCOs done to your PCB that are not in the docs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:43:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:43:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050707092839.00989430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jul 7, 5 09:28:39 am Message-ID: > I agreee but the problem is that a lot of us would like to recover the > original HP software from the tapes since a lot of it virtually never Agreed. Of course the belt failing is really a media issue, and is not strictly the same problem as being able to make a copy of the tape. > appeared on anything but the tapes. In addition, the programs on tape could > be "protected" and could not be copied. I know companies that run their > entire operation off of such commercailly produced protected tapes and are > willing to pay ANYTHING to keep them working since a failed tape will put > them out of business. Since the hardware details of the 9825, etc, tape drive and controller are known, it should be not too hard to link the bus interface side of that controller to another computer and read the tape at the bit level (rememebr the controller is a very simple device that does little to the bits coming off the tape). At which point it should be possible to copy _anything_. Of course this depends on the tape being still readable... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:46:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:46:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050707093955.00799100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jul 7, 5 09:39:55 am Message-ID: > > The really ingenous part is that the belt attempts to rotate the take up > spool about 10% faster then the other spool. That's what tightens up the > tape if it ever gets slack. How does that work? All points on the belt move with the same speed, the belt drives the outside of the 2 spools, so the surface speed of the spools must be the same. That's the tape speed. I don't see how it can move the tape faster on the takeup side. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 14:49:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:49:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Xerox 6085's In-Reply-To: <42CD3665.6060402@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at Jul 7, 5 10:04:21 am Message-ID: > > I recently acquired a pair of 6085's, 1 keyboard/mouse. I have spoken > with the guys over at Digibarn and they've been very helpful with > info. The systems don't have monitors so getting them tested, and > running again is at a standstill. > > I am looking for 1 or more monitors, any manuals and/or documents on the > 6085's, Mesa and Viewpoint. If anyone has any spare boards, > keyboards, basically anything that they may be interested in > selling/trading, please let me know. I'm also still looking for a > Star8010 as well. I won't have time to work on mine for quite a bit, but just a heads-up to say that I have a Daybreak with monitor but no keyboard or mouse. I figured out the keyboard protocol by borrowing a keyboard and attacking it with logic analyser, etc, and I have some schematics for the boards. _If_ I ever get time, I'll take a look at the monitor and see what I can work out... -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 7 15:42:32 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 20:42:32 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120768952.15420.168.camel@weka.localdomain> I've just found that there are at least two case variants for the 380Z too; they have exactly the same connectors and panel blanking plates / cut-outs, but in a totally different arrangement, which seems a strange thing to do. (One styles does have the stencils for RGBS video signals on the back, but both types have the blanking plate / hole for the BNC video signals, so it doesn't seem to be the case that one type was never intended to have a colour board) I'm still hoping to find out one day why at least one of RML's adverts shows a white-cased 380Z; I've never heard of anyone who owns such a thing. I think at least one of my manuals mentions Tony's prototyping board in passing, but I've not seen any details on it though. cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 15:49:29 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:49:29 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/23+ and rx-02 drives, need help!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/7/05, Tony Duell wrote: > Err, yes, but data transfer on the RXV21 always used DMA (NPR/NPG > signals). If the RXV21 never sees a non-processor grant, it'll never > transfer any data. Ah, yes... I was thinking about the Heathkit H27 interface. Different critical details. Mea culpa. -ethan From news at computercollector.com Thu Jul 7 16:07:17 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:07:17 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507072112.j67LCDd6094128@keith.ezwind.net> LOL, I learned that lesson recently while trying to connect my Apple //c to a 31-inch television. It works for BASIC, but not in AppleWorks, where the manual 40/80 column switch doesn't help. Guess it's time for me to acquire an Apple monitor. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 3:30 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? > I think that commodore went wrong in three areas. > > 1. they never put a standart rs232 port on their stuff. sure you could > use 1488's , but that was not the point. There was no real rs232. True... I have much the same moan about certain HP machines where the HPIB port is built-in (or an easy-to-find module), but the RS232 port is almost impossible to find now. > > 2. The disk drives were basically computers to themselves; Have you ever opened an HP91xx drive box? There's normally a 68B09 inside... > > 3. 40 columns just ain't cool. 80 is the way to go. Yes, but rememebr that Commodore were going for the home market, and wanted to be able to use a normal TV set as a monitor. I've not found a TV that can legibly display 80 columns if you feed the signal in to the aerial input (composite video inputs were not at all common then). -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jul 7 16:39:43 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:39:43 -0500 Subject: FAQ? References: <200507071346.j67DkXsa085979@keith.ezwind.net> <1120751316.15420.122.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <00ea01c5833c$63697820$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jules wrote... > Next question - how do I add comments? Nowhere does it say I need to be > logged in, but at the moment I'm getting "submission failed" with no > useful error message. Anyone else had any luck? The comment feature was working fine until I upgraded to the latest release of the KB software a few weeks ago. Now the comment feature is broken, but you can post new articles. I emailed the author, he emailed me back a patch a few days ago to fix it. I just haven't applied that patch yet. Will get to it soon! Jay From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 16:34:53 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > I hate computers. > > > > > > Feel free to send me all your collection. > > > > Come get it. It's yours. Bring along six 40' shipping containers and a > > crew of 7. I'll give you 24 hours and you have to take all or nothing. > > Which part of 'send' do you not understand :-) Oops, sorry, didn't see that. Give me your address then. Make sure you have 800 square feet of space in your backyard cleared out. I figure we can stack the containers three high side by side. Expect delivery in about 6 weeks. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jul 7 16:42:17 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:42:17 -0500 Subject: Programming Language Inventor or Serial Killer? References: Message-ID: <00f101c5833c$bf5a4dd0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I did 10/10, but I must admit totally guessing on about 1/2 of them. Jay From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 16:39:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 14:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: <200507072112.j67LCDd6094128@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > LOL, I learned that lesson recently while trying to connect my Apple //c to > a 31-inch television. It works for BASIC, but not in AppleWorks, where the > manual 40/80 column switch doesn't help. Guess it's time for me to acquire > an Apple monitor. The 40/80 column switch on the //c does not activate anything. It's just a switch that can be read by software, and it's up to the software to decide what to do with the setting. As far as I know, it's like the human appendix. No software I ever came across referenced that switch for anything. The //c+ later replaced that switch with an audio volume slider. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 16:46:33 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 22:46:33 +0100 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120768952.15420.168.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1120768952.15420.168.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <26c11a6405070714466f944ae2@mail.gmail.com> On 7/7/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I've just found that there are at least two case variants for the 380Z > too; they have exactly the same connectors and panel blanking plates / > cut-outs, but in a totally different arrangement, which seems a strange > thing to do. (One styles does have the stencils for RGBS video signals > on the back, but both types have the blanking plate / hole for the BNC > video signals, so it doesn't seem to be the case that one type was never > intended to have a colour board) > > I'm still hoping to find out one day why at least one of RML's adverts > shows a white-cased 380Z; I've never heard of anyone who owns such a > thing. > > I think at least one of my manuals mentions Tony's prototyping board in > passing, but I've not seen any details on it though. > > cheers > > Jules > > We had some external harddrives for the 380Z server we had at the school I went to. They where in the same case as a 380Z but they where white (same cream colour as the newer 480Z) and the reset button was just a power light. Inside was 2 ST225N's with 2 xebec boards. I'm not sure if this was an original spec though. The drives could of been upgraded, they where the same as they used in the Nimbus. Dan From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jul 7 16:55:27 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:55:27 -0500 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") Message-ID: <010701c5833e$95edd550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> The /45 lives, got a console up with the console emulator today. I never did get a blinking lights program to show up right, but I'm too embarassed to admit what likely caused that. But I got a lot of other few instruction programs to work correctly so I moved on to the DL11 and 9312 setup and got it all working. Only have 8K of core, but hey, it's a start. Once I get it to boot from a peripheral I'll take out the loaned cpu set and move mine back in and see where it chokes. So now I have a few peripheral questions. I was going to put in an RL02 drive, but I've been advised against putting one in the same cabinet as the cpu cab is top cooling intake :\ Now I'm moving on instead to hooking up and testing a LincTape II and a DSD440 drive. I found the docs for the DSD440 drive on bitsavers; my drive is missing the controller to drive cable. From those docs it appears to be a straight through 2x13 pin berg connector at each end. Can anyone confirm this? Also, If the DSD440 drive is set for RX01, will it work with the standard dec boot rom (DX) on the 9312? Likewise, if it's set for RX02 emulation will it work with the DY boot room on the 9312? Or does the DSD440 need a unique bootrom? I also have the LincTape II & controller (&cable), model CO-3000D. However, I don't see any docs for it on bitsavers and my googling gives tons of stuff on the Linc, not the LincTape II. Does anyone have docs for the LincTape II in electronic format? Or better yet... a boot rom for it :> I have spare boot roms (DP, RP02/03 and DM, RK06/07) that I doubt I'll ever use and would be available for trade. Thanks! Jay West From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jul 7 16:59:58 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:59:58 -0400 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") References: <010701c5833e$95edd550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <17101.42462.358266.28294@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jay" == Jay West writes: Jay> The /45 lives, got a console up with the console emulator Jay> today. I never did get a blinking lights program to show up Jay> right, but I'm too embarassed to admit what likely caused Jay> that. But I got a lot of other few instruction programs to work Jay> correctly so I moved on to the DL11 and 9312 setup and got it Jay> all working. Only have 8K of core, but hey, it's a start. Congratulations. 8kW is enough for RT, at least for the older SJ versions. That's all I had on our physics department 11/20 in college... paul From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 7 17:06:23 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:06:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive Message-ID: <200507072206.PAA24578@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > >At 11:59 AM 7/7/05 -0700, Dwight wrote: >>>From: "Joe R." >>> >>>At 12:10 AM 7/7/05 +0100, you wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Well, I finally got around to attempting to re-spool this stupidly >>>>> designed tape. >>>> >>>>It's actually avery ingenious design (it's the same design, basically, as >>>>QIC tape cartridges). Remember you want a constant tape speed past the >>>>head. By driving the outside of the tape spools at a constant speed >>>>(that's what the belt and drive puck do), rather than turning the spools >>>>themselves by their axles, that's exactly what you get. It avoids the >>>>capstan, pinch roller, slipping clutches, etc, used in audio tape and >>>>cassette recorders. >>> >>> The really ingenous part is that the belt attempts to rotate the take up >>>spool about 10% faster then the other spool. That's what tightens up the >>>tape if it ever gets slack. >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Your description sounds like a different tape than what I was dealing >>>>> with. The tape did not come off of either spool but was instead attached >>>>> onto both spools. > > That really wouldn't make any difference as long as the drive stops when >it sees the BOT/EOT hole and doesn't run the tape off the spool. > >>>> >>>>THere were several designs, sure... >>>> >>>>> >>>>> At any rate, the stupid tensioning belt (whatever its called) broke on >me. >>>>> Oh well, fuck that tape. I'll try to read it anyway (is the tensioning >>>>> belt necessary?) I also noticed numerous spots on the the tape where the >>>> >>>>Of course the belt is necessary. It's how the tape is driven. You can >>>>borrow one from another tape cartridge. >>> >>> Good luck! I could never replace a belt and make it work :=/ >> >>Hi Joe >> I have but I'll admit it was not easy. It is real easy to get >>the tape mangled. I've also repaired the roller at the corners >>on one. >> I don't know how it is done at the factory but they must have >>a special jig to get it all done right. > > Oh, I've gotten them back together (but you need about six hands to do >it)! But even though they're back together exactly like an original they >would never tighten up the slack. They'd run (till the slack got caught and >wrapped under the tape on the take-up spool) but simply never take the >slack out of the tape. Perhaps if I could run them at a slow speed the >slack would eventually work it self out without getting caught and they'd >be ok. But to tell the truth I've never had much luck with tape drives and >I dispise the things! > > Joe Hi Joe I had a trick to get the slack out but it was a long time ago and I've forgotten. I think I just ran is slowly by hand and it took the slack up but I just don't recall. Getting all the pins lined up at the same time was more of an issue. Like you said, it takes six or so hands. I was wondering if one completely unwound it onto a single spool that one could get it to take up the slack by threading it through on its own? It seems like they must have done something like this when they assembled them the first time. The design is such that it always pulls slightly more on the takeup reel. It isn't much but enough to take up the slack if it is only a little. Dwight From marvin at rain.org Thu Jul 7 17:07:16 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 15:07:16 -0700 Subject: B20, was Re: B1000 References: <200507072145.j67LjaMY056614@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42CDA794.FF718B7C@rain.org> Yes, I still have Docs and software (BTOS?) for the B20 machine. I also have the CPU and HD modules along with the monitor with at least one power supply. The HD module died (it uses a Seagate ST-225 HD) when I accidentally shorted something out. If the schematics are available (preferably online), I would love to get a copy! Al, I have a friend of mine coming down from Pleasanton on Saturday, July 16, and I could give the stuff to him to bring up your way. IIRC, there is probably between one and two bankers box full of docs and software. >> Alan Perry Wrote: > Al Kossow Wrote: > > I have a bunch of Burroughs B20 workstations > > Aren't these rebadged Convergent NGENs ? > > Marvin Johnson has a bunch of docs on these. I didn't realize how sophisticated the > OS was on these, probably should see about getting the docs scanned, if he still has > the stuff. From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jul 7 17:13:15 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 17:13:15 -0500 Subject: B20, was Re: B1000 In-Reply-To: <42CDA794.FF718B7C@rain.org> References: <200507072145.j67LjaMY056614@dewey.classiccmp.org> <42CDA794.FF718B7C@rain.org> Message-ID: <42CDA8FB.5030100@mdrconsult.com> Marvin Johnston wrote: > Yes, I still have Docs and software (BTOS?) for the B20 machine. I also > have the CPU and HD modules along with the monitor with at least one > power supply. The HD module died (it uses a Seagate ST-225 HD) when I > accidentally shorted something out. If the schematics are available > (preferably online), I would love to get a copy! Oooh, OOOH! Mister Kottaire! :^) I have a working NGEN system with OS intact. Unfortunately it also has intact login protection. Docs and maybe a boot floppy would go a long way toward remedy of that problem. I think mine runs CTOS, not BTOS, but I'm not sure that would prevent editing the system files. Real disks, images, whatever, if it's possible. Reasonable compensation, of course. Doc From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 7 17:15:11 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:15:11 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <26c11a6405070714466f944ae2@mail.gmail.com> References: <1120768952.15420.168.camel@weka.localdomain> <26c11a6405070714466f944ae2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1120774511.15420.183.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 22:46 +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > We had some external harddrives for the 380Z server we had at the > school I went to. They where in the same case as a 380Z but they where > white (same cream colour as the newer 480Z) and the reset button was > just a power light. Inside was 2 ST225N's with 2 xebec boards. I'm not > sure if this was an original spec though. The drives could of been > upgraded, they where the same as they used in the Nimbus. Hmm, now that's interesting. My 380Z fileserver has the same black case to it for the hard disk as the normal 380Z. As with the ones you remember, there's no reset button, just a power light, and there's a Xebec board inside. Can't recall what drive mine has inside, but it's a full-height unit so definitely not a '225. I suppose it makes more sense for them to be white/cream rather than black, given that they were supposed to be used with the cream 480Z systems - in which case maybe my black one's something of the odd one out! One day I'll bump into an ex-RML employee who has all the definite answers to everything (I hope :) I don't *think* the fileservers were meant to be used with a network of 380Z machines - but that's only going by the fact that I've never seen a 380Z with a network interface in it, except for my fileserver controller. Maybe they did exist as a standard network shipped by RML and that's why my fileserver unit is black... (mine was certainly used with 480Z's though as I got both fileserver and 480Z machines in the same pile from a school) At least that's confirmation that the cream/white machines did actually exist though! cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jul 7 17:25:18 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive Message-ID: <200507072225.PAA24583@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >> The really ingenous part is that the belt attempts to rotate the take up >> spool about 10% faster then the other spool. That's what tightens up the >> tape if it ever gets slack. > >How does that work? All points on the belt move with the same speed, the >belt drives the outside of the 2 spools, so the surface speed of the >spools must be the same. That's the tape speed. I don't see how it can >move the tape faster on the takeup side. > >-tony > Hi I'm not sure how it works. The 10% number is not even close. It is more like 0.5% or so. It does take up slack over time. I think it has to do with the stretch of the belt. There is more tention on one spool than the other, making one side move a little faster than the other. The one spool getting the more stretched belt would tend to move a little faster than the side without stretch on it since it would see more effective belt movement. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 7 18:33:05 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 16:33:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050707162858.B63681@shell.lmi.net> > > > > > I hate computers. > > > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Feel free to send me all your collection. > > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > Come get it. It's yours. Bring along six 40' shipping containers and a > > > crew of 7. I'll give you 24 hours and you have to take all or nothing. > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Which part of 'send' do you not understand :-) On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Oops, sorry, didn't see that. Give me your address then. Make sure you > have 800 square feet of space in your backyard cleared out. I figure we > can stack the containers three high side by side. > Expect delivery in about 6 weeks. SIX 40' containers, ??????? That sounds suspiciously like the culled duplicates from Sellam's collection, not the whole thing. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Jul 7 19:17:23 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:17:23 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: Message-ID: <002e01c58352$6ae310f0$0100a8c0@screamer> So what would be a good guess at the value of a working Imlac PDS-1 'alpha' machine? From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 19:28:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <010701c5833e$95edd550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Jay West wrote: > testing a LincTape II and a DSD440 drive. I found the docs for the DSD440 > drive on bitsavers; my drive is missing the controller to drive cable. From > those docs it appears to be a straight through 2x13 pin berg connector at > each end. Can anyone confirm this? Yes, it is. > Also, If the DSD440 drive is set for > RX01, will it work with the standard dec boot rom (DX) on the 9312? > Likewise, if it's set for RX02 emulation will it work with the DY boot room > on the 9312? Or does the DSD440 need a unique bootrom? As far as I know, it emulates DX or DY. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 19:30:43 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <200507072225.PAA24583@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I'm not sure how it works. The 10% number is not even > close. It is more like 0.5% or so. It does take up slack > over time. I think it has to do with the stretch of the > belt. There is more tention on one spool than the other, > making one side move a little faster than the other. > The one spool getting the more stretched belt would tend > to move a little faster than the side without stretch on > it since it would see more effective belt movement. I would think that the faster spindle has a smaller diameter than the slower one. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 19:31:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:31:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: <20050707162858.B63681@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > SIX 40' containers, ??????? > That sounds suspiciously like the culled duplicates > from Sellam's collection, > not the whole thing. SHHHHHHHHH! You're giving it away!! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jul 7 19:32:25 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 17:32:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <002e01c58352$6ae310f0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > So what would be a good guess at the value of a working Imlac PDS-1 'alpha' > machine? I'd say it would fetch at least an IMSAI. Possibly more. If you advertised pictures of it playing Spacewar! then it'd definitely sell for more ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Jul 7 19:41:28 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:41:28 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line References: Message-ID: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> Several people have asked if photos of some of my HP's were on-line. A handfull of new photos can be seen at: http://www.infionline.net/~wtnewton/oldcomp/hp2100/HP_photos.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 19:27:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 01:27:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120768952.15420.168.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 7, 5 08:42:32 pm Message-ID: > > > I've just found that there are at least two case variants for the 380Z > too; they have exactly the same connectors and panel blanking plates / > cut-outs, but in a totally different arrangement, which seems a strange > thing to do. (One styles does have the stencils for RGBS video signals > on the back, but both types have the blanking plate / hole for the BNC > video signals, so it doesn't seem to be the case that one type was never > intended to have a colour board) I don't think I've seen one with the RGB sockets labelled on the back panel. My RGB board, and the one I fitted to a machine back at school, had coloured dots stuck on the bracket hodling the BNCs to label them. The intallation notes for the RGB board in my machine mention at least 3 case variants : 'For most black case 380Zs : facing the rear panel, remove the rectangular blanking plate on the lower right of the rear panel (behind the drives on an MDS-2). There may be one or two blanking plates, if two use the one nearest the righthand side. On a few black case machines a horizontally alighend rectangular hole was provided; this will need slightly enlarging by the user before an RGB board can be fitted For blue-case (early model) 380Zs : consult Research Machines' There were also at least 3 different front panels : no drives, 2 horizontally-mounted full-height drives, and 2 vertically mounted 2/3rd height drivwa. > > I'm still hoping to find out one day why at least one of RML's adverts > shows a white-cased 380Z; I've never heard of anyone who owns such a > thing. I've seen a hard disk unit in much the same case as at 380Z but white-ish in colour. > > I think at least one of my manuals mentions Tony's prototyping board in > passing, but I've not seen any details on it though. It's mentioned in the Information File IIRC... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jul 7 19:42:40 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 01:42:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jul 7, 5 05:30:43 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > > I'm not sure how it works. The 10% number is not even > > close. It is more like 0.5% or so. It does take up slack > > over time. I think it has to do with the stretch of the > > belt. There is more tention on one spool than the other, > > making one side move a little faster than the other. > > The one spool getting the more stretched belt would tend > > to move a little faster than the side without stretch on > > it since it would see more effective belt movement. > > I would think that the faster spindle has a smaller diameter than the > slower one. Yes, but remember the belt drives the outide of the tape on the 2 spools. Yes, the smaller spindle will turn quicker (more revs per second), but to tension the tape you need to move the tape faster (more inches per second) on the takeup side. And I still don't see why this happens. -tony From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Thu Jul 7 20:30:15 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 18:30:15 -0700 Subject: Cables, part II Message-ID: <6b728ad4cb31b763af1f57bacf3b2d3b@valleyimplants.com> bit rushed on the first post, it seems. 1 ERGO (Tektronix X-terminal cable) 1 DECstation/VAXstation 3100/x SCSI -> Centronics 50 Of course, trades will be considered, but if not they are available for shipping+a bit for bother. Seattle area. Scott Quinn From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Jul 7 21:32:15 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 22:32:15 -0400 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") References: <010701c5833e$95edd550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <00a201c58365$41c25ec0$0100a8c0@screamer> My recollections and recommendations... The boot rom for the DSD drive is already on the 9312 from the 11/34 system. It is a standard DEC rom, I think RX02. Also, use the MOS memory from the 11/34 to boot. I'd recommend you boot from the DSD drives, or one of the RL01's. You have several bootable RL01 packs, but there are still two or three left here. One of the packs that's still here is the one that has the driver source for the LincTape drive. I never had a boot rom for the Linc, and its not really a practical boot device for RT-11. No cable for the DSD setup eh? Hmmm, must still be in the garage.... It is a normal ribbon cable just as you suspect. As best I recall, the LincTape II supports both DecTape and LincTape formats (they are not the same). Way back in the Eli Heffron days I used to get requests to transfer data from Linc or DecTape and copy it onto RX02's, but this became painful and we stopped doing this 'service'. The drives you have (LincTape II and DSD) are the very drives I used for this. I have a bunch of media for the LincTape II drive. Al K. 'borrowed' several tapes that had something of interest when he picked up the MIT CADR as well. But there are still many tapes here you need to get. As for mounting the RL01, there is still an H-960 sitting here! I think I also have a box of floppy disks for the DSD setup. You did get the OMSI Pascal packs, right? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 5:55 PM Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") > The /45 lives, got a console up with the console emulator today. I never > did get a blinking lights program to show up right, but I'm too embarassed > to admit what likely caused that. But I got a lot of other few instruction > programs to work correctly so I moved on to the DL11 and 9312 setup and > got it all working. Only have 8K of core, but hey, it's a start. Once I > get it to boot from a peripheral I'll take out the loaned cpu set and move > mine back in and see where it chokes. > > So now I have a few peripheral questions. I was going to put in an RL02 > drive, but I've been advised against putting one in the same cabinet as > the cpu cab is top cooling intake :\ Now I'm moving on instead to hooking > up and testing a LincTape II and a DSD440 drive. I found the docs for the > DSD440 drive on bitsavers; my drive is missing the controller to drive > cable. From those docs it appears to be a straight through 2x13 pin berg > connector at each end. Can anyone confirm this? Also, If the DSD440 drive > is set for RX01, will it work with the standard dec boot rom (DX) on the > 9312? Likewise, if it's set for RX02 emulation will it work with the DY > boot room on the 9312? Or does the DSD440 need a unique bootrom? > > I also have the LincTape II & controller (&cable), model CO-3000D. > However, I don't see any docs for it on bitsavers and my googling gives > tons of stuff on the Linc, not the LincTape II. Does anyone have docs for > the LincTape II in electronic format? Or better yet... a boot rom for it > :> > > I have spare boot roms (DP, RP02/03 and DM, RK06/07) that I doubt I'll > ever use and would be available for trade. > > Thanks! > > Jay West > From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jul 7 21:40:26 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:40:26 -0500 Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: References: <20050706194415.0cd68265.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050707214026.4ac19cf7.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:17:59 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > On this topic, I recently located an original IBM Monochrome > > monitor, so for me it's now just a matter of pulling out the EGA > > Techref and jumpering the IBM EGA card in my AT for EGA monochrome > > and plugging the > > One thing a lot of people forget : There's a jumper on the board near > the DE9 connector which selects where pin 2 of said DE9 goes (LSB of > one of the colours for an EGA monitor, ground for an MDA or CGA > monitor). If you set that to the EGA position and then connect an MDA > (or for that matter CGA) monitor, you're shorting an output line to > ground via the monitor cable. It probably won't do any harm, but why > risk it... > > Yes, if I remember correctly, there are two jumper areas on the original EGA card that need to be moved. I bought an EGA card years ago from a second hand dealer and it came with the techref suppliment, which I still have. Thanks for reminding me to be careful and doublecheck when I get going on that AT. I was probably one of the few people who ran EGA-Monochrome on an XT, back when an XT was all I could afford. EGA-Monochrome was very well supported in a few essential apps like Microsoft Word for DOS, and it also gave a MUCH better video resolution for Windows 3.0 on a 9-pin mono monitor than a Hercules card. Back in the days when I was too cheap to buy an expensive EGA monitor and ran Windows on an 8088 machine... Running EGA-monochrome kept me from wasting my time playing games, since there was none, nadda, no support at all for gameplaying type graphics on EGA-mono. > -tony > From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Jul 7 21:43:27 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 22:43:27 -0400 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 References: Message-ID: <00b101c58366$d2bfdfa0$0100a8c0@screamer> Is there a short vector version of SpaceWar? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 8:32 PM Subject: Re: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > >> So what would be a good guess at the value of a working Imlac PDS-1 >> 'alpha' >> machine? > > I'd say it would fetch at least an IMSAI. Possibly more. If you > advertised pictures of it playing Spacewar! then it'd definitely sell for > more ;) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jul 7 21:45:15 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:45:15 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: <20050706201014.3e790a6a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050707214515.18aa1d91.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 21:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 6 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > Believe me, a day will probably come when people who are in their > > twenties now will wax nostalgic on that old Leading Edge or Packard > > Bell clone they started out on as a little kid, and want one just > > like it. And most of them will have been melted down. > > I've got each in my collection ;) > > I'm not saying they're rare or anything, but I've hardly seen any 286 > or 386 computers come through my warehouse in the past few months. > The trickle has definitely slowed down. If you think you might have a > need for a 286 or 386 in the future, you should probably be wanting to > find a nice representative system right around now. > An important thing to keep a 'representative example' of in a 286 machine is one of the early 'full AT' motherboards from before the 'chipsets' hit the market. An original IBM-AT motherboard, or one of the first cloners, will have the same Intel 8xxx series LSI chips as the PC-XT machines and tons of TTL gates, and no 'custom' chips at all (aside from PALs). Also worth getting ahold of are the early 'full-AT' 386 motherboards which have aprox the same design. Better yet if you can get one that has a matching proprietary 'RAM Expansion' card. Those early AT systems are eminently repairable, and 'understandable' on the chip-level, since there aren't the 'mystery' chipset conglomeration parts that came into fashion when the 'Baby-AT' boards hit the market. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jul 7 21:51:06 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:51:06 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <00bc01c582b0$307ef9d0$5b7da418@game> References: <00bc01c582b0$307ef9d0$5b7da418@game> Message-ID: <20050707215106.0f4d6c80.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 00:56:08 -0400 "Teo Zenios" wrote: > > Leading Edge and Packard Bells always sucked (my first PC was a new > 286 Packard Bell). I did always want a 386 Gateway desktop case, those > looked nice. The high end Northgates and Everex machines looked nice > (could be 486 era). > > My first 'PC' used an early non-turbo XT-clone motherboard I bought at a swapmeet. At the same swapmeet I bought an original 63.5 watt IBM supply, a used 'Leading Edge, model D' case (just the sheet metal bits), and an IBM MDA card. I already had an IBM keyboard that had no case on it. When I got the whole mess home, the only way to fit the XT motherboard in the case was to cut away all but one of the 'card edge slots' in the LE case as it used different card connector spacing. The only way to fit the power supply was to strip it entirely out of it's original IBM case and mount the circuit board on standoffs in the Leading Edge case. So that's what I did. Add two 360K floppy drives and an original IBM MDA card and you've got my first PC. What a conglomeration that system was. It lasted for years and years. It makes the 'case modding' that enthusiasts dabble in today look like childsplay. > > > > From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jul 7 21:55:48 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 21:55:48 -0500 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: <20050706201713.363f8c94.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050707215548.06c8346a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:23:16 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Even where IBM cards of that era used 'commodity' components, they > > were usually completely house-marked and impossible for a mere > > mortal to figure out. This goes all the way down to resistor > > networks and resistors/capacitors (except those few that have > > color-code bands.) > > Yes, but it's easy to measure the value of a resistor or capacitor, > and even resistor networks can generally be figured out. HP used > custom house-coded resistor netowrks in some of their products and it > didn't stop me... > Figuring out alien unmarked and complex resistor networks is a nerds treat. It's a mathematical puzzle in physical form. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Jul 7 22:00:53 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 22:00:53 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64, Commodore 64sx enthusiasts? In-Reply-To: <200507070221.TAA13070@floodgap.com> References: <20050706202849.2455b3d6.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200507070221.TAA13070@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20050707220053.506d7ebb.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 19:21:02 -0700 (PDT) Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I am now working in a deparment where there is an SX64 still 'in > > production' hooked up to a test fixture and occasionally used. I am > > keeping a close eye on it and hope one day when it gets 'obsoleted' > > it'll head my way. (in fact it'll probably be my job to rig up it's > > replacement) I received a complete regular Commodore 64 system with > > 1571 drive a few weeks ago, all boxed up, with the custom data > > aquisition card for the test fixture application it was used for. > > > > Yep. There's at least ONE SX-64 out there still IN USE that I hope > > to acquire when it's retired. > > Could a photograph be taken? I think the Commodore masses would love > it. > > -- I should look into that. I have access to digital cameras in that particular lab, and no super-secret proprietary stuff would be revealed... Got another commie today on the way home at a garage sale. A 'classic' C64, a 1541 and a 1541-II, plus two third-party printers and all the cables and rigging. It also included a whole TON of what appeared to be commercial boxed software, except there was not a SINGLE floppy diskette in the batch, just all the fancy color-printed boxes. Some dastardly soul probably snatched and put MS-DOS stuff on those disks fifteen years ago... From mokuba at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 22:08:20 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 23:08:20 -0400 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Oops, sorry, didn't see that. Give me your address then. Make sure you > have 800 square feet of space in your backyard cleared out. I figure we > can stack the containers three high side by side. > > Expect delivery in about 6 weeks. I can take the delivery, empty farmland behind - Let's get started! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 7 22:09:44 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 22:09:44 -0500 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <17101.42462.358266.28294@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <010701c5833e$95edd550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <17101.42462.358266.28294@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 7/7/05, Paul Koning wrote: > 8kW is enough for RT, at least for the older SJ versions. That's all > I had on our physics department 11/20 in college... It'll boot, but wow... that'd be tight. I'm used to RT-11 v2.x and 4.x w/32Kw. Plenty of room to knock around. -ethan From computer at officereach.net Fri Jul 8 00:08:09 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:08:09 -0700 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line In-Reply-To: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: Bob, I'll let this be a source of inspiration for my own projects, to show what you can do when you put your time to get something done. Thanks not only for the great pics, but apparently having an amazing computer for display. Thanks again. -----Original Message----- From: "Bob Shannon" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 20:41:28 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line > Several people have asked if photos of some of my HP's were on-line. > > A handfull of new photos can be seen at: > > http://www.infionline.net/~wtnewton/oldcomp/hp2100/HP_photos.html > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 8 00:30:30 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 22:30:30 -0700 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") Message-ID: <42CE0F76.1030703@bitsavers.org> Also, use the MOS memory from the 11/34 to boot. -- Doesn't this require a DD11 backplane with Modified Unibus Device (MUD) slots? === Al K. 'borrowed' several tapes that had something of interest when he picked up the MIT CADR as well. -- They were finally read last year when I got a TC11 working again, along with some that I 'borrowed' from Jay on the same trip. Should all of them be sent to Jay? From tomj at wps.com Fri Jul 8 01:04:59 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 23:04:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intercept (6100) PDP-8 compatibility? Message-ID: <20050707230302.R1403@fiche.wps.com> I know the base instruction set is right but I'm fairly sure the IO structure is radically different, but -- What peripgherals and OS software is available for, or runs on, the Intercept? (Not the Jr board, the rack-mount job). I'm thinking it might make a comfortably modern old machine... From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jul 8 01:14:24 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 01:14:24 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42CE19C0.4050605@oldskool.org> Joe R. wrote: > Don't take this personally BUT: Why didn't you bid your max bid the > first time??????? If you had you would have won the item. I take this one step further and use a service (esnipe) to snipe all of my auctions. That way, I bid one price and walk away -- AND, because I bid 10 seconds before the end of the auction, nobody can see what I'm bidding on until it's too late. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jul 8 01:18:12 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 01:18:12 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42CE1AA4.9050206@oldskool.org> Jim Isbell, W5JAI wrote: > The starting price does not affect the cost of the auction to the > seller, its the selling price that determines the cost. So, its not a > matter of saving money, its a matter of scaring off bidders. I thought the whole point of listing something on ebay was to **SELL** it. But you actively take measures to scare bidders away? Why, that's pure genius! I must try this "piss off any potential customers" technique you speak of. I am sure to triple my income! (ducking) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Jul 8 01:19:59 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 01:19:59 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <42C97E08.50404@mdrconsult.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050704101150.0095d4e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050704122740.024bad60@mail.earthlink.net> <42C97946.2080006@mdrconsult.com> <42C97E08.50404@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <42CE1B0F.7050702@oldskool.org> Doc Shipley wrote: > Sniping *can* benefit the buyer, price-wise. However, your assumption > that late bids are always about the money just doesn't hold water. Agreed. I snipe auctions because I specifically don't want other people to monitor my ID and see what I'm bidding on. It has nothing to do with being a cheapskate; I always think about a price for a minute, then set up the snipe with my maximum bid (MAXIMUM, not $1 or something), then walk away. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 8 05:14:03 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 06:14:03 -0400 Subject: 50 Hz Shugart SA-851s... Message-ID: In the process of getting Dave Dunfield a door button for his Seimens 8 incher, I went through my whole stack of 8 inch drives and parts. I "found" a couple of SA-851s that, while the serial number plate says they are 115 volt, 60 Hz, are in fact built with the 50Hz drive pulley. You can put them next to a "normal" SA-851 and see that the pulley is a different size and I just confirmed it by putting a diskette in one, powering it up, putting a scope on the index signal and seeing that (on 60 Hz power) it is turning at 432 RPM a 20 percent increase over the 360 rpm it should be turning at. Other than that little problem, the drives seem to mostly function, that is, they seek, report track zero, etc. They appear to have seen very little use (probably because they don't fully work). Anyway, they weigh a ton (like most 8 inch drives) but is there anyone within reasonable shipping charges of Washington, DC that could use them and would want to work out a trade? Alternatively, it just occurred to me that maybe I could just exchange pulley wheels with someone? Bill S. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 8 06:25:06 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 11:25:06 +0000 Subject: Free: CBM PETs, disk unit, Sinclair QL (Abingdon UK) Message-ID: <1120821906.17516.2.camel@weka.localdomain> Got this one the other day - we don't need any more PET or QL stuff, and he's given me permission to post here. Contact him directly if interested - he's got a couple of weeks before he moves apparently. cheers Jules -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: Chris Jones Reply-To: member at chilemonster.freeserve.co.uk To: donations at retrobeep.org Subject: Donation offer Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 08:43:53 +0200 (CEST) Hi Jules, I have two commodore CBM computers from the 80s which still work (an 8032 and 4032 upgraded from and labelled 3008). There is also a 5.25" disk drive (working) plus manuals/books/software etc. Would you be interested in adding them to your collection, or know someone that would? I am moving house and will readily donate them - I dont really want them to end up in land fill! There is also a sinclair QL and memory expansion/manuals etc. Thanks Chris Jones Abingdon From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 8 06:38:33 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 11:38:33 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1120822713.17516.12.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-08 at 01:27 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > For blue-case (early model) 380Zs : consult Research Machines' > > There were also at least 3 different front panels : no drives, 2 > horizontally-mounted full-height drives, and 2 vertically mounted 2/3rd > height drivwa. Yep - plus front panels that say 380Z-FD rather than just 380Z, and of course one that says Winchester Disk rather than 380Z. Plus it sounds like there are at least five different rear case panels - two variants with the same holes, one with two RGB-type holes, one with a horizontal RGB-type hole, and the one for the Winchester unit. Then there are white-cased and blue-cased machines on top of that. Actually, I'd not heard of the blue-cased machines before. Maybe they're in standard off-the-shelf instrument cases rather than with RML logos, panel cut-outs etc.? I don't know of anyone with anything other than a black-cased machine (albeit there are a few variants out there) - shows how much RML hardware and knowledge has been lost I suppose :-( Oh, Xebec board in my fileserver is an S1410, for which I have a manual and a couple of spare boards, so I can do some messing around with a PC parallel port driver. There's even a sample Z80 interface schematic in the back of the manual that's probably adaptable... Still concerned about timings though as some of the timing diagrams do have upper constraints on signal changes (a lot of them only specify a minimum limit). Time will tell if the PC's port is quick enough... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 8 06:45:17 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 11:45:17 +0000 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line In-Reply-To: References: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <1120823117.17516.17.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-07-07 at 22:08 -0700, plato computer wrote: > Bob, I'll let this be a source of inspiration for my own projects, to > show what you can do when you put your time to get something done. > Thanks not only for the great pics, but apparently having an amazing > computer for display. Thanks again. I love photo 4 with the flare around the panel lamps! Lifting that 2116 into the top of that cabinet must have been a nightmare; those things weigh a *lot*. One day we might be able to get our HP stuff sorted like this! (we've got a nice HP polar display that's crying out to have something interesting done with it) cheers Jules From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Jul 8 07:00:09 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 08:00:09 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line In-Reply-To: <1120823117.17516.17.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> <1120823117.17516.17.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42CE6AC9.nailCT118URJ@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > we've got a nice HP polar display that's crying out to have something > interesting done with it Can it be used in "pure" X-Y? Even if it cannot, making an analog computer that integrates the Lorenz equations and allowing some knobs to vary the parameters produces really pretty displays. Takes a couple of analog multipliers. See my usenet posts on the subject from early this year. Tim. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jul 8 07:09:15 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 08:09:15 -0400 Subject: Intercept (6100) PDP-8 compatibility? Message-ID: <0IJB00HY45Q6BBK6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Intercept (6100) PDP-8 compatibility? > From: Tom Jennings > Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 23:04:59 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >I know the base instruction set is right but I'm fairly sure the >IO structure is radically different, but -- > >What peripgherals and OS software is available for, or runs on, >the Intercept? (Not the Jr board, the rack-mount job). > >I'm thinking it might make a comfortably modern old machine... > You can run most base PDP-8 software. The small difference is the console IOTs are differently assigned but easily fixed in the code. Its the side effect of their IO devices. Allison From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 09:36:27 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:36:27 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line References: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> <1120823117.17516.17.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <008501c583ca$6cbfaaa0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> VERY nice setup Bob!! I really should get some pictures of my HP bays online too, it'd be a good contrast to Bob's setup. His seems to have more of a test & measurement bent, while mine is more of a general computing bent. However, to do that, I'd have to dump the digital camera of mine that has started taking icky pictures and buy a new one :) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 09:38:31 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:38:31 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line References: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <009001c583ca$b7813d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> To me, what is especially outstanding about Bob's setup is the IDE hard drive interface, and the homebrew paper tape reader & punch to/from EEprom. Talk about an incredible application of new technology to old technology!!! Outstanding!! Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 09:56:32 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:56:32 -0500 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") References: <010701c5833e$95edd550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <00a201c58365$41c25ec0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <00a001c583cd$3aa0d3c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bob wrote... > The boot rom for the DSD drive is already on the 9312 from the 11/34 > system. It is a standard DEC rom, I think RX02. I found a DX & DY boot rom on that 9312, which I assumed was the right one but I didn't know if the DSD required a non-standard (ie. non-DEC) boot rom. It appears that it uses a standard boot rom, so I'm all set there. I really wish the DSD440 I got from you had the rails, but I'm going to dig around here and see if I have some rails that will fit it. > Also, use the MOS memory from the 11/34 to boot. Yes, but.... if I pull the memory from the /34 I won't have any memory for the /34 which I DO plan to restore in the near future. Plus, there's been some discussion about that memory needing a MUD slot. I'll sort it out before too long. > One of the packs that's still here is the one that has the driver source > for the LincTape drive. Ug... I definitely would like to get that! > No cable for the DSD setup eh? Hmmm, must still be in the garage.... > It is a normal ribbon cable just as you suspect. I bought a 26 conductor 10 foot rainbow ribbon cable yesterday, along with a few 2x13 IDC connectors. So, I'll just make my own connector. As I recall, rainbow ribbon cables normally use brown for pin 1. I also bit the bullet and bought an IDC crimp tool, I've used a bench vise in the past and it just doesn't work well - too many broken connectors ;) > I have a bunch of media for the LincTape II drive. Al K. 'borrowed' > several tapes that had something of interest when he picked up the > MIT CADR as well. But there are still many tapes here you need to > get. I'd love to get those tapes Bob! But as a side note... dare I ask... is new media for linctape II available anywhere? The stuff is old enough I'm concerned about tape decay... > As for mounting the RL01, there is still an H-960 sitting here! > I think I also have a box of floppy disks for the DSD setup. I have an H-960 spare. I was REALLY hoping to make the 11/45 a single bay setup, but it doesn't seem that is really possible. I'll have to hunt up a "tie together" kit to bolt my two racks together if I wind up going the dual bay route :| > You did get the OMSI Pascal packs, right? I am 99% sure that one or more of the packs I got from you was labled OMSI Pascal. I think I already have a 3rd party pascal compiler on RX02 media, not positive about that. I do know I have the Saturn Word Processing system distribution on RX02 if anyone needs that. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 09:59:19 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:59:19 -0500 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") References: <42CE0F76.1030703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <00ab01c583cd$9e6b3e90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Bob had written... > Also, use the MOS memory from the 11/34 to boot. To which Al replied... > Doesn't this require a DD11 backplane with Modified Unibus Device (MUD) > slots? Yes, it does. I have a BA11 with DD11 (9 slot I think). I've got several options here, I'll post that in a separate post momentarily soliciting advice :) Al wrote (re: LincTape media) > Should all of them be sent to Jay? I believe that was Bob's intent, but I don't want to speak for Bob. Jay From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 7 19:53:56 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 20:53:56 -0400 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050707093955.00799100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050707205356.009ca570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:46 PM 7/7/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> The really ingenous part is that the belt attempts to rotate the take up >> spool about 10% faster then the other spool. That's what tightens up the >> tape if it ever gets slack. > >How does that work? All points on the belt move with the same speed, the >belt drives the outside of the 2 spools, so the surface speed of the >spools must be the same. That's the tape speed. I don't see how it can >move the tape faster on the takeup side. I don't know but that's what HP claims in one of the computer manuals. Maybe it doesn't work. That would match my experience! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jul 7 20:04:13 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2005 21:04:13 -0400 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <010701c5833e$95edd550$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050707210413.009cbb20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:55 PM 7/7/05 -0500, you wrote: >The /45 lives, got a console up with the console emulator today. I never did >get a blinking lights program to show up right, but I'm too embarassed to >admit what likely caused that. But I got a lot of other few instruction >programs to work correctly so I moved on to the DL11 and 9312 setup and got >it all working. Only have 8K of core, but hey, it's a start. Once I get it >to boot from a peripheral I'll take out the loaned cpu set and move mine >back in and see where it chokes. > >So now I have a few peripheral questions. I was going to put in an RL02 >drive, but I've been advised against putting one in the same cabinet as the >cpu cab is top cooling intake :\ Now I'm moving on instead to hooking up and >testing a LincTape II and a DSD440 drive. I found the docs for the DSD440 >drive on bitsavers; my drive is missing the controller to drive cable. From >those docs it appears to be a straight through 2x13 pin berg connector at >each end. Can anyone confirm this? Yeap. it's a straight through 26 pin ribbon cable. That's what the manual says and I have an original cable and I've checked it. One hole is plugged on each connector so that they can't be installed backwards. I don't remember which one it is but you should be able to tell by looking at the mating connectors. If you're not sure I'll go look. FWIW I've been working on my DSD drives. One is acting very weird but I got one working perfectly. I have one more that's missing a drive and it occasionally gives CRC errors but I have more drives that may work. Also, If the DSD440 drive is set for >RX01, will it work with the standard dec boot rom (DX) on the 9312? >Likewise, if it's set for RX02 emulation will it work with the DY boot room >on the 9312? Or does the DSD440 need a unique bootrom? According to the manual it should act exactly like a RX01 or RX02 depending on the jumper setting. I think I remember the manual saying that the standard boot ROMs would work with it but I'm not certain. BTW I have an extra DSD manual if you need one. Joe > >I also have the LincTape II & controller (&cable), model CO-3000D. However, >I don't see any docs for it on bitsavers and my googling gives tons of stuff >on the Linc, not the LincTape II. Does anyone have docs for the LincTape II >in electronic format? Or better yet... a boot rom for it :> > >I have spare boot roms (DP, RP02/03 and DM, RK06/07) that I doubt I'll ever >use and would be available for trade. > >Thanks! > >Jay West > > From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Jul 8 10:39:52 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 08:39:52 -0700 Subject: [hercules-390] Vintage IBM Mainframe Stuff References: Message-ID: <42CE9E48.DFE1D136@msm.umr.edu> Roy Carlson is the seller. I recently purchased a service device for DASD, and Storage Directors, which reads 8" floppies, which was much more in line with collector prices. The prices he is asking for the drek is in line with curio and display junk listings, not for vintage computer groups. That market will pay a lot just for punch cards, and such, just to frame and hang on the wall. He has a nice set of Telex manuals at the end of the listing which I hope maybe Al Kossow gets for Bitsavers, as an example of how the vintage and old computer stuff he sells is. He is just trying to clear out the end result of a repair and refurb business, he is as far as I know, not one of the gold scrap assassins, but is actually very knowlegable about the systems, etc. I rated my transaction for the tester, and then before that for a 3420 test stunt box to be excellent. BTW, he has a lot of 3420 parts he hasn't listed and may be forced to dump if there are 3420 owners out there. Light bulbs and plastic tubing, and cables and belts don't sell well for curios, they look just about like the ones on fans and cars... Jim Gary Green wrote: > At least if the items are overpriced, and the shipping is actual, or > real > close, you know what you're getting into before you bid. > > I've been looking for an older 1U rack-mount machine. I've found a > number > of units for a reasonable price, considering most of it is 6-8 years > old. > However, the shipping charges are about 2-3 times what they should > be. So, > I wait. :( > > > > > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZredwooddr > > > > > > The usual yada, yada, yada; no interest, no affiliation, etc... > > I bought my 9348 tape drive from him a few years ago. No big problem, > though > the picture in the listing was of another, less banged-up drive. It > arrived, > it works, and the shipping charge was only the actual Fedex cost - no > "packaging and handling" markup that so many eBay sellers like to > apply. > However many of his current items do look severely overpriced to me. > > Tony H. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 11:02:12 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:02:12 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. Message-ID: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ok, so I have a working processor, and a basement full of peripherals. I'm not sure which way to go with the rest of the build. I'm not really up on DEC stuff I admit, so maybe others here can offer me some advice as to what is the best way to proceed. Background: My 11/45 (11/45-CA actually) has the KB11-A processor, no FP. It's the older style with the power distribution board on the back wall of the cpu cabinet rather than on top. However, it's also got the newer 861A power control in the bottom rather than the dual 860's in the top. There is the two H742A's as well. I have one system unit installed - MF-11L in which is installed 8K of core. In the cpu backplane there are three unibus slots which I believe will take three quad? (C-F) boards. A&B in two of those slots are used for the unibus A to unibus B jumper, and A&B of the last slot is the connector to A&B of the MF-11L. The MF-11L has a 9312 in the last A&B slot. The SPC? boards currently installed are two DL11's and a M7228. The ONLY board in slot one is a 930C terminator in A&B. I have no MMU, so slot 13 is empty and slot 14 has the M8116. Separately, I have a lot of peripherals to choose from. Scads of RL02's, DSD440, LincTape II, RX01's, RX02's, RA81's, etc. I also have a BA11-KU with a DD11-DK backplane in it. Problem: The unibus space on the cpu backplane is quite limited. At the VERY least I have to keep one of the DL11's there, so that leaves me with two more unibus slots for peripherals. I *THINK* that that standard controller for an RX02 or RL02 takes all 6 rows (Hex cards?). However, the DSD440 controller only takes slots C-F (quad?). The linctape II controller also only takes C-F. So, I think I could have a reasonable system by putting the DSD440 controller, LincTape controller, and a DL11 and be done with it. However, I then am limited to using core memory in the MF11. At the very best, I can get... what... 32K in a MF11? I think I can get the additional core boards. But correct me if I'm wrong but isn't sticking with core (max 32K) going to make my operating system choices extremely limited? I'm guessing I can't run RSTS or Unix on it with that kinda memory. vtserver I think requires a full load of 128KW. On top of it all, the DSD440 takes most of the rack depth, as does an RL02, so I've been advised against mounting anything above the /45 except maybe the linctape. Possible solutions: 1) I just got a M7891 (64KW) off Ebay. I could yank out the MF-11L system unit, yank out the DD11-DK from the spare BA11, and install the DD11 in the cpu cabinet. I'd use the unibus memory M7891, ditch the core, and have a fair number of slots left over in the DD11. However, there's problems with this approach. I'd still be mounting stuff above the /45 (DSD440 & Linctape at the least), and maybe an RL02. In other words, this would fix the memory and unibus slot availability, but I believe I'd still be restricting the airflow/cooling too much :\ Plus I'd need to find some of those rare Mate & Lock connectors to get the DD11 into the /45 cabinet and do some power harness building. I guess I might need one or more regulators for this approach as well. Then I'd have to find/buy a KT11-C to USE the M7891 I think.... I'm probably talking about unobtanium stuff aren't I :| 2) Take another H960 rack, bolt it to the 11/45 rack, and install the entire extra BA11 in there. Now it's a dual bay system, but I could use core still if I wanted, and I think also use the M7891 in the BA11. Then I'd have room in the 2nd rack for the peripherals. However, I'd really like to keep this in a single bay rack :\ I'm sure there's other solutions. Can someone advise me on what is likely to be the best route to go? I don't want this to be a really huge /45 setup. I'd like to run RT11 v5 with TSX+ on it. Temporarily, I'd also like to try loading up RSTS and some form of Unix. Thoughts anyone? Jay West From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 11:35:31 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > > > Oops, sorry, didn't see that. Give me your address then. Make sure you > > have 800 square feet of space in your backyard cleared out. I figure we > > can stack the containers three high side by side. > > > > Expect delivery in about 6 weeks. > > I can take the delivery, empty farmland behind - Let's get started! Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had an open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave Tony a break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has the energy and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the offer, open to anyone who thinks they can pull it off: You have 24 hours to unload every last IC and piece of paper in my warehouse. You are allowed one (and only one) helper of your choosing. You must take it all. Shelving is optional. If you are unable to have everything removed from my warehouse by the time the 24 hours is up, you must put everything back where you found it. You will also have to pay for anything you broke. I'm quite serious. Now, who's up for it? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 11:40:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:40:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <42CE19C0.4050605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Jim Leonard wrote: > Joe R. wrote: > > Don't take this personally BUT: Why didn't you bid your max bid the > > first time??????? If you had you would have won the item. > > I take this one step further and use a service (esnipe) to snipe all of my > auctions. That way, I bid one price and walk away -- AND, because I bid 10 > seconds before the end of the auction, nobody can see what I'm bidding on until > it's too late. StealthBid usually hits with 3-4 seconds to go ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jul 8 11:53:49 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive Message-ID: <200507081653.JAA25060@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> I'm not sure how it works. The 10% number is not even >> close. It is more like 0.5% or so. It does take up slack >> over time. I think it has to do with the stretch of the >> belt. There is more tention on one spool than the other, >> making one side move a little faster than the other. >> The one spool getting the more stretched belt would tend >> to move a little faster than the side without stretch on >> it since it would see more effective belt movement. > >I would think that the faster spindle has a smaller diameter than the >slower one. > Hi The belt drives over the surface of the tape so the tape speed is independent of the spindle speed ( as Tony mentioned ). The smaller spindle would revolve faster but that doesn't explain how it maintains tension. As Tony said, the belt runs over the surface of the tape at both spools. If every thing was equal, the tape would never have any tension on it and any slack would never be taken up. As one knows that has taken one apart, the belt is a little elastic and is stretched on. The place that the belt is stretched the most when moving would need to have a higher surface speed ( kind of like the Bernoulli principle ). This would cause that spool to turn a little faster than it would if the belt were non-elastic. Of course, the end of the belt that is close to the drive would have the most tension and that spool should have a tape speed slightly greater than the other spool until the tension of the tape brought the other spool to the same amount of stretch on the belt. It seems like I remember something about holding some tension on the tape when I was taking up the slack. As I recall, it seemed counter intuitive at the time but thinking about how the belt speed up the take-up spool, it makes sense. Joe, the next time you have to take up slack, maintain a little tension on the feeding spool and you should notice an increase in the rate that the take-up spool pulls the slack in. Dwight From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 8 11:56:59 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:56:59 +0000 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line In-Reply-To: <42CE6AC9.nailCT118URJ@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> <1120823117.17516.17.camel@weka.localdomain> <42CE6AC9.nailCT118URJ@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <1120841819.17498.23.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-08 at 08:00 -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > we've got a nice HP polar display that's crying out to have something > > interesting done with it > > Can it be used in "pure" X-Y? Even if it cannot, making an analog > computer that integrates the Lorenz equations and allowing some knobs > to vary the parameters produces really pretty displays. Can't remember if it has an X-Y mode or not. I have a feeling the answer's no... I'll have a look tomorrow though. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 8 11:59:30 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:59:30 +0000 Subject: Xebec S1410 bridge board Message-ID: <1120841970.17516.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Anyone have a later manual than mine, which only covers up to revision E of the firmware? All the actual boards I have are revision F or G, and it'd be nice to know if anything drastic changed in terms of programming... ta Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 11:59:37 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 11:59:37 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On 7/8/05, Jay West wrote: > Problem: > The unibus space on the cpu backplane is quite limited. At the VERY least I > have to keep one of the DL11's there, so that leaves me with two more unibus > slots for peripherals. I *THINK* that that standard controller for an RX02 > or RL02 takes all 6 rows (Hex cards?). However, the DSD440 controller only > takes slots C-F (quad?). The linctape II controller also only takes C-F. So, > I think I could have a reasonable system by putting the DSD440 controller, > LincTape controller, and a DL11 and be done with it. The RL11 is a hex card. The RX11 is a quad card. I understand wanting to keep to a single rack, but to be honest, back in the day, a single-rack 11/34 was pretty common, but the larger machines tended to have multiple racks, a BA-11 in addition to the CPU, etc. A BA-11K holds up to 3 DD11DK backplanes, *lots* of space. You can also mount RK11D backplanes in there, or an RK611 for RK06/RK07... all commonly done on machines in the 1970s and 1980s. > I'm sure there's other solutions. Can someone advise me on what is likely to > be the best route to go? I don't want this to be a really huge /45 setup. > I'd like to run RT11 v5 with TSX+ on it. Temporarily, I'd also like to try > loading up RSTS and some form of Unix. Thoughts anyone? Hmm... starting from small to large (memory), I'd say that RT-11 v5 should have 32Kw, a bit more for TSX+ to make sense (why try to cram multiple "users" into 32K?), a bit more for RSTS (128K?) and as much memory as the processor can address for most UNIX versions you are likely to want to run. In terms of disk, RT11 can live just fine on floppies, but a disk is nice, even an RL01 or RL02 (5MB or 10MB). Older versions of RSTS are OK on an RL02 or two; newer ones (v9, v10) may not fit on a system with a single RL02. 2.9BSD doesn't really fit in 10MB - you can load it, but there's no room for kernel sources. Not sure about disk requirements for v6, v7, etc., but 10MB might be OK. With leaving the top of the rack empty for cooling (probably not a bad idea in a non-machine-room environment), your options are severely limited. If it were my system, I don't think I'd even consider trying to fit in a single rack, but I have a) empty H960 racks and b) space to set them up. Still... sounds like a cool system. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 8 12:04:36 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:04:36 -0700 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. Message-ID: You will need a KT11-C if you don't have one to adr anything over 60kb. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 12:01:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had an > open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave Tony a > break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has the energy > and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the offer, open to > anyone who thinks they can pull it off: > > You have 24 hours to unload every last IC and piece of paper in my > warehouse. You are allowed one (and only one) helper of your choosing. > You must take it all. Shelving is optional. > > If you are unable to have everything removed from my warehouse by the time > the 24 hours is up, you must put everything back where you found it. You > will also have to pay for anything you broke. > > I'm quite serious. > > Now, who's up for it? And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jul 8 12:10:05 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 50 Hz Shugart SA-851s... Message-ID: <200507081710.KAA25084@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Bill When I was helping a friend bring up a MDS800 system, years ago, the only cheap drives we could find were the ones for the 50Hz ( surplus ). We just took a file to the motor spindle and ground it down until is was the right speed. Do note that you need to keep a little crown on the pulley to keep the belt centered. I do think that the belts are slightly different. As I recall we also had to elongate the mounting holes for the motor to keep the belt tight. It may be that the flywheel pulley is slightly different to use the same belt size but I'd think a different belt makes more sense. We didn't have a 60Hz drive to compare to at the time. Dwight >From: "Bill Sudbrink" > >In the process of getting Dave Dunfield a door button for >his Seimens 8 incher, I went through my whole stack of 8 >inch drives and parts. I "found" a couple of SA-851s that, >while the serial number plate says they are 115 volt, 60 Hz, >are in fact built with the 50Hz drive pulley. You can put >them next to a "normal" SA-851 and see that the pulley is a >different size and I just confirmed it by putting a diskette >in one, powering it up, putting a scope on the index signal >and seeing that (on 60 Hz power) it is turning at 432 RPM a >20 percent increase over the 360 rpm it should be turning at. >Other than that little problem, the drives seem to mostly >function, that is, they seek, report track zero, etc. They >appear to have seen very little use (probably because they >don't fully work). Anyway, they weigh a ton (like most 8 >inch drives) but is there anyone within reasonable shipping >charges of Washington, DC that could use them and would want >to work out a trade? Alternatively, it just occurred to me >that maybe I could just exchange pulley wheels with someone? > >Bill S. > > From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 12:09:46 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:09:46 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <42CE19C0.4050605@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 7/8/05 2:14 AM, "Jim Leonard" wrote:. > > I take this one step further and use a service (esnipe) to snipe all of my > auctions. That way, I bid one price and walk away -- AND, because I bid 10 > seconds before the end of the auction, nobody can see what I'm bidding on > until > it's too late. I don't rely on snipe services - unless they jack you to your max *instantly* instead of in incriments, nailing your highest at the last minute and having the snipe program check and raise and check and raise takes time, and it most likely won't hit your max during that last single minute, heh From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 12:11:23 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:11:23 -0400 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/8/05 12:35 PM, "Vintage Computer Festival" wrote: > Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had an > open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave Tony a > break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has the energy > and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the offer, open to > anyone who thinks they can pull it off: > > You have 24 hours to unload every last IC and piece of paper in my > warehouse. You are allowed one (and only one) helper of your choosing. > You must take it all. Shelving is optional. > > If you are unable to have everything removed from my warehouse by the time > the 24 hours is up, you must put everything back where you found it. You > will also have to pay for anything you broke. > > I'm quite serious. > > Now, who's up for it? Nonononono! You ship to *us* :) From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jul 8 12:15:41 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 12:15:41 -0500 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050708121236.054d6c48@mail> At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ Ah, thank you. I will rub these pictures like cool smooth stones against my temples when I need to reassure myself that "I may think I have a lot of junk, but at least I'm not as crazy as Xxxx." - John From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jul 8 12:17:12 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:17:12 -0400 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <17102.46360.889492.697943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> Hmm... starting from small to large (memory), I'd say that Ethan> RT-11 v5 should have 32Kw, a bit more for TSX+ to make sense Ethan> (why try to cram multiple "users" into 32K?), a bit more for Ethan> RSTS (128K?) and as much memory as the processor can address Ethan> for most UNIX versions you are likely to want to run. RSTS/E would like max memory (124 kW on an 11/45), though less will work -- depending on version; for example V5A runs fine with 48 kW. And RSTS V4 uses 28kW (no MMU support -- no RL support either, though). 32 kW for RT? Wow. Early on it didn't need anywhere near that much; V2-SJ runs perfectly well in 8 kW. DOS (earlier versions anyway) can run in 4 kW. paul From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jul 8 12:24:24 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050708121236.054d6c48@mail> from "John Foust" at Jul 08, 2005 12:15:41 PM Message-ID: <200507081724.j68HOOxh005381@onyx.spiritone.com> > At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > > >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ > > Ah, thank you. I will rub these pictures like cool smooth stones > against my temples when I need to reassure myself that > "I may think I have a lot of junk, but at least I'm not as crazy as Xxxx." > > - John Agreed, overall I feel more pity than anything else, though #8 does make me green with envy, I wish I had that much space for my collection of books! Of course things like this remind me that I actually need to put more effort into shrinking my collection. Zane From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 8 12:33:43 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:33:43 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: <200507081724.j68HOOxh005381@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200507081741.j68Hfd4m004414@keith.ezwind.net> Truly amazing: when I visited during VCF 6, I asked Sellam where I could a specific Atari 2600 cartridge, and he instantly directed me to a specific box. LOL, of course, I had to use a GPS, snorkeling and rappeling gear, a sledgehammer, and two remote-control reconnaissance planes. Also, I had to hire a Sherpa and perform weeks of high-altitude training first. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 1:24 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Take My Warehouse, Please! > At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > > >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ > > Ah, thank you. I will rub these pictures like cool smooth stones > against my temples when I need to reassure myself that "I may think I > have a lot of junk, but at least I'm not as crazy as Xxxx." > > - John Agreed, overall I feel more pity than anything else, though #8 does make me green with envy, I wish I had that much space for my collection of books! Of course things like this remind me that I actually need to put more effort into shrinking my collection. Zane From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 12:28:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > Nonononono! You ship to *us* :) Nonononono! You come and take it away. One helper; 24 hours. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 12:31:39 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:31:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > I don't rely on snipe services - unless they jack you to your max > *instantly* instead of in incriments, nailing your highest at the last > minute and having the snipe program check and raise and check and raise > takes time, and it most likely won't hit your max during that last single > minute, heh If a sniper service works like that then it's foolish and retarded. The main reason I use a sniping service is to manage my bids for me. First of all, for all the obvious reasons, bidding anytime before the imminent end of an eBay auction is pointless. Second, I submit what I'm willing to pay, and the sniper gets my bid in at the last possible reasonable second. If I win, great. If I win for less than what I was willing to pay, even better. If I don't, terrific! I saved my money for a rainy day. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jul 8 12:42:51 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:42:51 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050708121236.054d6c48@mail> <200507081724.j68HOOxh005381@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <17102.47899.333128.297928@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >> At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >And here >> are photos so you can see what you're up against: >> > >> >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ Wow. Is that a VT05 in picture 4? paul From javickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Jul 8 12:42:54 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:42:54 +0100 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507081752.j68HpxhR004523@keith.ezwind.net> > > > Nonononono! You ship to *us* :) > > Nonononono! You come and take it away. One helper; 24 hours. > Do you have a fork-lift truck available - or does the challenger have to bring their own? Cheers, Ade. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.10/43 - Release Date: 06/07/2005 From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 8 12:44:17 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:44:17 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507081752.j68Hq8RQ004528@keith.ezwind.net> Do these services have any kind of monetary buffer built-in? For example, let's say you are willing to pay $100 for something. Your sniping service enters that amount at the last possible second, and you lose to someone whose bid was $101. You'd feel pretty dumb about losing the item because of one dollar. How do you know that winner's bid wasn't $101 maximum? I know that's an easy trap because, in reality, you can keep going back and forth in small increments, and the next thing you know, you've bid $120, which is really more than you allotted for the item. Still, though, it's a legitimate problem with sniping services as I understand them -- you have no chance at all to say "okay, I'll bid just a little bit more." -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 1:32 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > I don't rely on snipe services - unless they jack you to your max > *instantly* instead of in incriments, nailing your highest at the last > minute and having the snipe program check and raise and check and > raise takes time, and it most likely won't hit your max during that > last single minute, heh If a sniper service works like that then it's foolish and retarded. The main reason I use a sniping service is to manage my bids for me. First of all, for all the obvious reasons, bidding anytime before the imminent end of an eBay auction is pointless. Second, I submit what I'm willing to pay, and the sniper gets my bid in at the last possible reasonable second. If I win, great. If I win for less than what I was willing to pay, even better. If I don't, terrific! I saved my money for a rainy day. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From computer at officereach.net Fri Jul 8 12:56:09 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:56:09 -0700 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: <17102.47899.333128.297928@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050708121236.054d6c48@mail> <200507081724.j68HOOxh005381@onyx.spiritone.com> <17102.47899.333128.297928@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Paul Koning! Paul Koning! There's a name that I recognize! Paul! Has anyone checked out cyber1.org, which is Paul's reanimation of the old CDC Plato Network; amazingly cool stuff. Amazing. You've got to check it out - Paul is seriously such an inspiration. Contrary to my wife's ideas about his project, I think it's pretty damn cool! -----Original Message----- From: Paul Koning To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:42:51 -0400 Subject: Re: Take My Warehouse, Please! > > >> At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >And here > >> are photos so you can see what you're up against: > >> > > >> >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ > > Wow. > > Is that a VT05 in picture 4? > > paul > From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 12:49:31 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: <200507081752.j68HpxhR004523@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Ade Vickers wrote: > > > > > Nonononono! You ship to *us* :) > > > > Nonononono! You come and take it away. One helper; 24 hours. > > > > Do you have a fork-lift truck available - or does the challenger have to > bring their own? You can rent mine for $1,000/hr ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jul 8 12:54:03 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 12:54:03 -0500 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: <200507081741.j68Hfd4m004414@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507081724.j68HOOxh005381@onyx.spiritone.com> <200507081741.j68Hfd4m004414@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050708125209.055a6a50@mail> At 12:33 PM 7/8/2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: >LOL, of course, I had to use a GPS, snorkeling and rappeling gear, a >sledgehammer, and two remote-control reconnaissance planes. Also, I had to >hire a Sherpa and perform weeks of high-altitude training first. But the sickness inside me looks at all the wasted space... Why, with those high ceilings, he could put in almost an entire second level, if not a floor then various types of cargo nets and around-the-wall upper-level shelving to consume even more space. - John From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 12:54:07 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <200507081752.j68Hq8RQ004528@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Do these services have any kind of monetary buffer built-in? For example, > let's say you are willing to pay $100 for something. Your sniping service > enters that amount at the last possible second, and you lose to someone > whose bid was $101. You'd feel pretty dumb about losing the item because of > one dollar. Why should I feel dumb? I already thought about what I was willing to pay at a maximum, so if someone gets it for $1 more than me then more power to them. And in 99 times out of 100, if someone does get it for $1 more than you, they probably put in a bid that is several dollars more than what your maximum was. So even if you did bid $2 more, their max will still be larger than yours. And this also negates the point of the sniping service and starts to get into the silly psychological games that drive up prices well beyond what's reasonable and sane. How do you know that winner's bid wasn't $101 maximum? I know > that's an easy trap because, in reality, you can keep going back and forth > in small increments, and the next thing you know, you've bid $120, which is > really more than you allotted for the item. Still, though, it's a > legitimate problem with sniping services as I understand them -- you have no > chance at all to say "okay, I'll bid just a little bit more." Again, you don't want to bid "just a little more". You set your maximum and you are content whatever the outcome. If not, well, you have problems. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 12:54:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 10:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: <17102.47899.333128.297928@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > >> At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >And here > >> are photos so you can see what you're up against: > >> > > >> >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ > > Wow. > > Is that a VT05 in picture 4? Yes. Ok, stop downloading now, please. You're killing my server ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jul 8 13:13:36 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200507081814.OAA17800@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > First of all, for all the obvious reasons, bidding anytime before the > imminent end of an eBay auction is pointless. Hm. The reasons you refer to certainly aren't obvious to me. Is that just an artifact of my inexperience with ebay, or am I missing something more obvious? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Jul 8 13:06:54 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:06:54 -0400 (edt) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jul 8, 05 10:54:47 am Message-ID: <200507081806.OAA05298@wordstock.com> And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake: > > On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >> At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >And here > > >> are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > >> > > > >> >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ > > > > Wow. > > > > Is that a VT05 in picture 4? > > Yes. > > Ok, stop downloading now, please. You're killing my server ;) > Hmm.... I am sure the fine people at SlashDot would love to view your warehouse! Cheers, Bryan From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jul 8 13:21:12 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 14:21:12 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: <200507081806.OAA05298@wordstock.com> References: <200507081806.OAA05298@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <42CEC418.3030807@atarimuseum.com> Is this Sellam's warehouse or Weirdstuff.... damn dude, I thought I had a lot of stuff, wow!!! You are just outright scary!!! So what time can I show up to pick it all up ;-) Curt Bryan Pope wrote: >And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake: > > >>On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >> >>> >> At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >And here >>> >> are photos so you can see what you're up against: >>> >> > >>> >> >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ >>> >>>Wow. >>> >>>Is that a VT05 in picture 4? >>> >>> >>Yes. >> >>Ok, stop downloading now, please. You're killing my server ;) >> >> >> > >Hmm.... I am sure the fine people at SlashDot would love to view your >warehouse! > >Cheers, > >Bryan > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.10/43 - Release Date: 7/6/2005 From computer at officereach.net Fri Jul 8 13:30:35 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 11:30:35 -0700 Subject: FREE MACINTOSH PLUS. In-Reply-To: <200507081814.OAA17800@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200507081814.OAA17800@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: I have the following Hardware that would love to find itself a good home. Hardware: Machintosh Macintosh Plus Macintosh Keyboard Macintosh Mouse serial number F847HHMM0001A (have no idea what this means) ...and... CMS External Hard Disk Drive F00590 3D30U Serial number 1034213 Send me an address, and I'll let you know cost of mailing via UPS or USPS or something. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 13:23:01 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:23:01 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <17102.46360.889492.697943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <17102.46360.889492.697943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On 7/8/05, Paul Koning wrote: > 32 kW for RT? Wow. Early on it didn't need anywhere near that much; > V2-SJ runs perfectly well in 8 kW. Sure... early versions. Jay did say v5. Now... even v5 SJ will run in a lot less than 32kW, but the applications I remember running (and writing) wanted the full 16-bits of memory (minus the I/O page, of course). You can probably play around fine in 16kW. The memory isn't just for the OS... you need some space for the apps (compilers, games, whatever). -ethan From Tim at Rikers.org Fri Jul 8 13:56:56 2005 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 12:56:56 -0600 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CECC78.8020507@Rikers.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Ok, stop downloading now, please. You're killing my server ;) Mirrored here (in gallery with slideshow, etc): http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware-sellam Sellam: holler if you want me to take 'em down. or, register on the gallery and I'll let you add comments and more pictures. ;-) -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jul 8 13:59:32 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:59:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: The scary thing is that I have seen a team of two guys actually clean up a warehouse pile like that in 24 hours. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jul 8 14:08:06 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:08:06 -0400 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <17102.46360.889492.697943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17102.53014.517275.983555@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> On 7/8/05, Paul Koning wrote: >> 32 kW for RT? Wow. Early on it didn't need anywhere near that >> much; V2-SJ runs perfectly well in 8 kW. Ethan> Sure... early versions. Jay did say v5. Now... even v5 SJ Ethan> will run in a lot less than 32kW, but the applications I Ethan> remember running (and writing) wanted the full 16-bits of Ethan> memory (minus the I/O page, of course). You can probably play Ethan> around fine in 16kW. Ethan> The memory isn't just for the OS... you need some space for Ethan> the apps (compilers, games, whatever). True. But I did assemblies, Fortran, TECO, Basic all in an 8 kW machine, with RT V2-SJ. paul From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 8 14:14:23 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:14:23 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507081922.j68JMt0O005572@keith.ezwind.net> I do think it's possible. Highly improbable, but possible. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 3:00 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) > And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: The scary thing is that I have seen a team of two guys actually clean up a warehouse pile like that in 24 hours. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From computer at officereach.net Fri Jul 8 14:25:58 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 12:25:58 -0700 Subject: Take My Wife, Please! (was Re: Will trade for warehouse) In-Reply-To: <200507081922.j68JMt0O005572@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507081922.j68JMt0O005572@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Heh. -----Original Message----- From: "'Computer Collector Newsletter'" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:14:23 -0400 Subject: RE: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) > I do think it's possible. Highly improbable, but possible. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of William Donzelli > Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 3:00 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber > on HP > 9825 tape drive) > > > And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > The scary thing is that I have seen a team of two guys actually clean > up a > warehouse pile like that in 24 hours. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 8 14:28:57 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:28:57 -0400 Subject: 50 Hz Shugart SA-851s... In-Reply-To: <200507081710.KAA25084@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > Hi Bill > When I was helping a friend bring up a MDS800 system, > years ago, the only cheap drives we could find were > the ones for the 50Hz ( surplus ). > We just took a file to the motor spindle and ground > it down until is was the right speed. Do note that you > need to keep a little crown on the pulley to keep > the belt centered. Thanks for the advice but I have about ten more spare SA-851s, five or six 850s, five or six 801s and a dozen or so Seimens. I was actually looking for someone who might be in need of 50Hz operation. Is there anyplace in North America that runs 50Hz? BTW, it's actually the motor side pulley that is different. The flywheel seems to be the same size. Bill S. From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Jul 8 14:21:08 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:21:08 -0400 (edt) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jul 8, 05 02:59:32 pm Message-ID: <200507081921.PAA21921@wordstock.com> And thusly William Donzelli spake: > > > And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > The scary thing is that I have seen a team of two guys actually clean up a > warehouse pile like that in 24 hours. > I have seen this too - not the warehouse cleanup part, but two guys who could easily make a serious dent in his pile.. Stuff that I used a hand truck to move, they carried it like it was styrofoam (boxes that each contained about a dozen 1541's)! Cheers, Bryan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jul 8 14:30:54 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive Message-ID: <200507081930.MAA25133@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >> On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> >> > I'm not sure how it works. The 10% number is not even >> > close. It is more like 0.5% or so. It does take up slack >> > over time. I think it has to do with the stretch of the >> > belt. There is more tention on one spool than the other, >> > making one side move a little faster than the other. >> > The one spool getting the more stretched belt would tend >> > to move a little faster than the side without stretch on >> > it since it would see more effective belt movement. >> >> I would think that the faster spindle has a smaller diameter than the >> slower one. > >Yes, but remember the belt drives the outide of the tape on the 2 spools. >Yes, the smaller spindle will turn quicker (more revs per second), but >to tension the tape you need to move the tape faster (more inches per >second) on the takeup side. And I still don't see why this happens. > >-tony > Hi Tony I'm proposing an experiment for you since I know that you are the type that would actually try it. Get two pulley or spools ( like from thread ) that are the same diameter. Place these on shafts that give you a few inches between outer edges. Get a rubber band that is large enough to go around the two spools, with some tension. Mark the spools with an arrow so that you can see how fast each rotates. For convenience, spools should be left and right. Now place a little drag on the left spool while pulling the rubber band from the lower span of the rubber band, towards the left. This would correspond to how the tapes are in the cassette. Although, the spools are the same size, I've only done this so that the surface speeds of the spools would match if a rigid belt were used, similar to the tape surfaces. As you pull the rubber band, you'll notice that the right spool rotates noticeably faster than the left spool, even though the rubber band is not slipping on the left spool. This demonstrates the principle of the way the cassette works ( or at least should ). I do hope you try it. Dwight From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jul 8 14:33:47 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:33:47 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050708121236.054d6c48@mail> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050708121236.054d6c48@mail> Message-ID: <42CED51B.70902@atarimuseum.com> If you gotta be THAT crazy, at least Sellam is doing it in style! ;-) Curt John Foust wrote: >At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >>And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: >> >>http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ >> >> > >Ah, thank you. I will rub these pictures like cool smooth stones >against my temples when I need to reassure myself that >"I may think I have a lot of junk, but at least I'm not as crazy as Xxxx." > >- John > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.10/43 - Release Date: 7/6/2005 From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 8 14:34:45 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 20:34:45 +0100 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c583f4$19e5da00$c901a8c0@flexpc> >I don't rely on snipe services - unless they jack >you to your max *instantly* instead of in incriments, >nailing your highest at the last minute and having >the snipe program check and raise and check and raise >takes time, and it most likely won't hit your max >during that last single minute, heh By definition sniping is bidding at the very last minute - i.e. so close to the end of the auction that noone else gets to reply after seeing your bid. So you must bid your maximum as, almost by definition, you'll not get another chance. The advantages of sniping are its "fire and forget" nature (which saves time, no need to follow the auction) and the lack of emotion (you won't be tempted to try bidding a few extra pennies "just in case he's only just beaten my bid"). A third advantage is that you won't have your bid nibbled up towards your max by newbies who like to bid in minimum increments. If you like the emotional side of things, then you need to place your own bids. Personally I almost always use a sniping program, unless I see something crop up that I want when I'm away from my machine. In that case, I bid near the end and take my chances. Antonio From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 8 14:37:45 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 15:37:45 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: <42CECC78.8020507@Rikers.org> Message-ID: Hmmm... Where are the ones you play with? It's a shame to have that many toys and not play with them. If I had that kind of space I'd keep a corner clear with a couple of big tables and lots of available power so I could haul stuff over to the "play area" and run it now and then. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 8 14:39:24 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 20:39:24 +0100 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the"Apple-1" In-Reply-To: <200507081752.j68Hq8RQ004528@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <000101c583f4$c0109be0$c901a8c0@flexpc> >Do these services have any kind of monetary buffer >built-in? For example, let's say you are willing >to pay $100 for something. Your sniping service enters >that amount at the last possible second, and you lose >to someone whose bid was $101. I have a feeling I need to point you at my auctions :-) If you were only willing to bid $100, why are you now willing to bid $102? I can understand that in a live auction room you can get carried away, but with an online auction you usually have plenty of time to see how often the "L@@K RARE" stuff crops up and what it usually sells for (allowing for shipping). Then you decide where in the range you want to be and how badly you want it and come up with a number. If you want to you can then ask yourself "but what if he bids $1 more" and increase your bid until you come round :-) Then feed that into the snipe tool. If there was noone willing to go over $50, you get it for $51 and all you lost was some time talking to yourself. If there was someone willing to chat to themselves a little longer than you were, you move on to any of the other five "L@@K RARE" items available in the next 24 hours. Antonio From news at computercollector.com Fri Jul 8 14:54:24 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:54:24 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507082002.j68K2sfS006070@keith.ezwind.net> I believe that's called his house. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Sudbrink Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 3:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Take My Warehouse, Please! Hmmm... Where are the ones you play with? It's a shame to have that many toys and not play with them. If I had that kind of space I'd keep a corner clear with a couple of big tables and lots of available power so I could haul stuff over to the "play area" and run it now and then. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 14:51:19 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:51:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: <42CED51B.70902@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > If you gotta be THAT crazy, at least Sellam is doing it in style! ;-) That's right, baby. All bow to my superior insanity :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 14:56:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 12:56:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Where are the ones you play with? It's a shame to have that > many toys and not play with them. If I had that kind of space > I'd keep a corner clear with a couple of big tables and lots > of available power so I could haul stuff over to the "play area" > and run it now and then. When I really need space I make it. For example, I built the PDP-1 replica in the space at the back near the loading dock. But as with all vacuums, stuff found a way to fill it back in. A more permanent arrangement that includes ample play space is in the works. What are you seeing now is the mess that still remains from my last move. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Jul 8 15:10:44 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:10:44 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050708160416.03bb1a28@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > You have 24 hours to unload every last IC and piece of paper in my > > warehouse. You are allowed one (and only one) helper of your choosing. > > You must take it all. Shelving is optional. > > > > If you are unable to have everything removed from my warehouse by the time > > the 24 hours is up, you must put everything back where you found it. You > > will also have to pay for anything you broke. > > > > I'm quite serious. > > > > Now, who's up for it? I've been exercising as of late... Lost 5 lbs so far, and lowered my blood pressure 15 points. (and now once in a great while, if my wife feels my forearms, I might get a little... ummm... happyness, too!) That said, I'd not be up to it, but gimme a year (and a forklift, and my dad's 18-wheeler, and... and... and... and I'm still dreaming!!! ;-) ) >And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ Thanks for those! Now my cow-orkers don't think I'm *nearly* as crazy as they used to think... and it explains why you never found that Amiga keyboard... ;-) [[ Still battling a couple of Dragons at the edge of the world, but at least I'm not dangling by 1 hand anymore... ;-) ]] Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 8 15:11:25 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:11:25 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" References: Message-ID: <005e01c583f9$3821c600$5b7da418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 1:54 PM Subject: RE: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" > Again, you don't want to bid "just a little more". You set your maximum > and you are content whatever the outcome. If not, well, you have > problems. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival I tend to make my highest bid something like $10.04 for example so somebody would have to hit the next did increment $.50 or whatever to outbid me. If I bid $10 and somebody won it for $10.01 I would feel silly, let them pay $10.50. Generally if I get outbid its by a large amount anyway, since I am cheep and look for good deals and not for average prices on ebay. From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jul 8 15:11:12 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 16:11:12 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CEDDE0.9060000@atarimuseum.com> >All bow to my superior insanity > > Wait!!!! I love that, I think I'm gonna make that my signature! :-) Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.10/43 - Release Date: 7/6/2005 From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jul 8 15:16:47 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:16:47 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) References: Message-ID: <008101c583f9$f7f6f720$5b7da418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 2:59 PM Subject: Re: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) > > And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > The scary thing is that I have seen a team of two guys actually clean up a > warehouse pile like that in 24 hours. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > I would assume its easy if you are just throwing the contents into a few trash bins out back. Moving the contents in an organized fashion without breaking anything would be a bit impossible (hence the bet, and the break it you bought it clause). From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Jul 8 15:21:53 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:21:53 -0500 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) References: Message-ID: <015e01c583fa$afe0dfe0$54406b43@66067007> I would love to have that warehouse space right now and to have the book collection out like you have it would be great!!! Had someone break into one of my trailers (4-45 footers on lease) and they tossed books and computer items all over the ground around the trailer. A warehouse would be better. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 12:01 PM Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) > On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had an >> open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave Tony a >> break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has the energy >> and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the offer, open to >> anyone who thinks they can pull it off: >> >> You have 24 hours to unload every last IC and piece of paper in my >> warehouse. You are allowed one (and only one) helper of your choosing. >> You must take it all. Shelving is optional. >> >> If you are unable to have everything removed from my warehouse by the >> time >> the 24 hours is up, you must put everything back where you found it. You >> will also have to pay for anything you broke. >> >> I'm quite serious. >> >> Now, who's up for it? > > And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jul 8 16:49:23 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:49:23 -0500 Subject: New addition to the family. Message-ID: <200507081649.23967.pat@computer-refuge.org> I realize that it's a couple years shy of the 10-year rule, but I figure that the "coolness" factor of the machine makes up for it. So, I moved my new Gen 5 S/390 into my garage (and my non-working Gen3 out...long story) last night. Pics and details of the find: http://www.computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/s390/ All I can say it "w00t"! :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 8 16:50:06 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 14:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050708143803.E88038@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Hmmm... > Where are the ones you play with? In the "BIG ROOM". The pictures of what Sellam is offering must be one of the smallest of his warehouses. He's obviously trying to do everyone a favor, and only offering what COULD BE moved in 24 hours. Where are the printers? ...the piles of extra disk drives? ... the wall of 5150s? ... the rest of the monitors? ... the wall of Macintoshes? I'm sure that he has a lot more Apple ][s than are in #6. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 17:04:36 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:04:36 -0500 Subject: HP 7980SR option question? Message-ID: <007d01c58409$08178b60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I've located a 7980SR in excellent condition. I do recall my days of selling HP that the S meant SCSI and the R meant refurbished. However, this one has a tag stating it includes options -100 and -200. I do not have sufficient memory to know what those options were, and I don't believe I have my HP config/sales guides from that era :\ Does anyone know what options -100 and -200 are for the 7980S drives? If one of them is 800bpi option, I'm gonna snag the thing! (otherwise I'll pass). Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 17:06:15 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:06:15 -0500 Subject: DEC RDxx drives (compatability)? Message-ID: <008101c58409$42a2e130$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I came across a large pile of Micropolis 1558 ESDI drives today. No clue what the owner wants for them. I was wondering if these might be compatible with an 11/23's RQDX3 controller? Jay From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jul 8 17:10:39 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:10:39 -0500 Subject: New addition to the family. In-Reply-To: <200507081649.23967.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050708170913.0a824d20@mail.ubanproductions.com> Cool stuff Pat! How much power does that baby draw? Did it come with and disk drives? Will we be seeing that at VCF Midwest 1.0? --tom At 04:49 PM 7/8/2005 -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >I realize that it's a couple years shy of the 10-year rule, but I figure >that the "coolness" factor of the machine makes up for it. > >So, I moved my new Gen 5 S/390 into my garage (and my non-working Gen3 >out...long story) last night. > >Pics and details of the find: > >http://www.computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/s390/ > >All I can say it "w00t"! :) > >Pat >-- >Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ >The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 17:10:58 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:10:58 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <008601c58409$ebbecf90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ethan wrote.... > I understand wanting to keep to a single rack, but to be honest, back > in the day, a single-rack 11/34 was pretty common, but the larger > machines tended to have multiple racks, a BA-11 in addition to the > CPU, etc. A BA-11K holds up to 3 DD11DK backplanes, *lots* of space. > You can also mount RK11D backplanes in there, or an RK611 for > RK06/RK07... all commonly done on machines in the 1970s and 1980s. I only have one RK05, and it's destined for my PDP-8E, and I'm unlikely to ever find more. Many list members have scads of them, but to me RK05's are pretty much unobtanium in my area. > In terms of disk, RT11 can live just fine on floppies, but a disk is > nice, even an RL01 or RL02 (5MB or 10MB). Older versions of RSTS are > OK on an RL02 or two; newer ones (v9, v10) may not fit on a system > with a single RL02. 2.9BSD doesn't really fit in 10MB - you can load > it, but there's no room for kernel sources. Not sure about disk > requirements for v6, v7, etc., but 10MB might be OK. I'll go with either an RL02 or RA81. > With leaving the top of the rack empty for cooling (probably not a bad > idea in a non-machine-room environment), your options are severely > limited. If it were my system, I don't think I'd even consider trying > to fit in a single rack, but I have a) empty H960 racks and b) space > to set them up. I have two other H960 racks, guess I'll have to add one to the /45 and make it a dual bay system. The other H960 will probably go to the 11/34 restoration. Thanks for the input! Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 17:12:22 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:12:22 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. References: Message-ID: <008d01c5840a$1d5f4750$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Al wrote.. > You will need a KT11-C if you don't have one to adr anything over 60kb. Yeah, I'm aware of that... I think I mentioned it in my previous post. I seem to recall M8107 and M8108 or somesuch. I *THINK* I've located those, but they are gonna cost a decent chunk of change. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 17:14:11 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:14:11 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <17102.46360.889492.697943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <009601c5840a$5ebed030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Paul wrote... > 32 kW for RT? Wow. Early on it didn't need anywhere near that much; > V2-SJ runs perfectly well in 8 kW. I am not sure if TSX+ will run on the SJ monitor... don't recall. But I do know it's memory requirement was higher than 8K. I'll have to go look that up in my TSX+ manuals :) Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 17:17:43 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:17:43 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><17102.46360.889492.697943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17102.53014.517275.983555@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <00a901c5840a$dcfd89f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ok, so the obvious question is... If I add a 2nd bay..... 1) How unobtanium are the parts necessary to bolt the two H960 racks together? 2) Can the MF11-L be present in the machine along with the M7891 in the BA11 (in the 2nd rack)? Can both the core and the semiconductor be used at the same time? Or do I need to pull the core boards out of the MF11 to use the M7891 in the BA11? Jay From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jul 8 17:25:23 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:25:23 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 08 Jul 2005 10:01:16 PDT." Message-ID: <200507082225.j68MPNNa011614@mwave.heeltoe.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ I was actually pondering it until I noticed the coin-op cabinet on *top* tier of the warehouse shelving :-) It's more than even I could do. At least a week!!! -brad From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jul 8 17:32:58 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:32:58 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <008601c58409$ebbecf90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050708172331.022bdec0@mail.ubanproductions.com> >>In terms of disk, RT11 can live just fine on floppies, but a disk is >>nice, even an RL01 or RL02 (5MB or 10MB). Older versions of RSTS are >>OK on an RL02 or two; newer ones (v9, v10) may not fit on a system >>with a single RL02. 2.9BSD doesn't really fit in 10MB - you can load >>it, but there's no room for kernel sources. Not sure about disk >>requirements for v6, v7, etc., but 10MB might be OK. >I'll go with either an RL02 or RA81. You can fit v6 onto a single RK05 with just barely enough room for the kernel source and enough space to compile it. It is tight but doable. In order to run most Unix varieties, you will likely need a KW11 (M787) line frequency clock, a full box of memory, the memory management (as noted by Al), etc. The later BSD releases require a rather large amount of disk space, depending on what all you install. They also become pretty slow on the machines which do not support more than 128KW of memory. >>With leaving the top of the rack empty for cooling (probably not a bad >>idea in a non-machine-room environment), your options are severely >>limited. If it were my system, I don't think I'd even consider trying >>to fit in a single rack, but I have a) empty H960 racks and b) space >>to set them up. >I have two other H960 racks, guess I'll have to add one to the /45 and >make it a dual bay system. The other H960 will probably go to the 11/34 >restoration. As long as you leave enough room for air to enter the top of the BA11-F, you should be able to mount peripherals above the CPU bay. You will likely need to leave the back, sides, or front panels off in order to allow a space for the air to enter. DEC specified that no peripherals should be mounted above the CPU because with the sides, back, and front panels in place, there isn't enough remaining space to channel cooling air when a full size (e.g. RK05) box is mounted in the space above. If you do mount a peripheral above the CPU, be sure to space it up enough (perhaps 6") to allow room for air to enter... It won't be as neatly dressed as with the sides/back/etcetera on the rack, but it takes up half the space. --tom From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jul 8 17:32:17 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:32:17 -0400 Subject: DEC RDxx drives (compatability)? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:06:15 CDT." <008101c58409$42a2e130$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200507082232.j68MWHMi013983@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: >I came across a large pile of Micropolis 1558 ESDI drives today. No clue >what the owner wants for them. I was wondering if these might be compatible >with an 11/23's RQDX3 controller? nope. RQDX3 is MFM. Think ST-225. You'd need an ESDI controller for those. (and if anyone has one for qbus they don't need, let me know! :-) -brad From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jul 8 17:37:02 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:37:02 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <00a901c5840a$dcfd89f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <17102.46360.889492.697943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17102.53014.517275.983555@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050708173355.0a8d0ec0@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 05:17 PM 7/8/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Ok, so the obvious question is... > >If I add a 2nd bay..... > >1) How unobtanium are the parts necessary to bolt the two H960 racks together? Just a few regular bolts, nothing special. >2) Can the MF11-L be present in the machine along with the M7891 in the >BA11 (in the 2nd rack)? Can both the core and the semiconductor be used at >the same time? Or do I need to pull the core boards out of the MF11 to use >the M7891 in the BA11? You are better off placing the memory as close to the CPU as possible. You should be able to jumper the memories to work together. There is no reason that I know of that you cannot use a mixture of core and MOS memory. Of course MOS memory requires considerably less power to run, but doesn't retain its memory when power is lost (unless it is the battery backed variety). --tom From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jul 8 17:36:10 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:36:10 -0400 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:10:58 CDT." <008601c58409$ebbecf90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200507082236.j68MaAoa014287@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Jay West" wrote: >I'll go with either an RL02 or RA81. My advise would be to start with the RL11 controller since it's only 1 card. The UDA-50 is 2 cards and the cabling can be a pain. Plus, if you've got a bunch of RL02's around you can probably boot RT11 or XXDP right off the bat from a cart you already have. When I started my 11/34a hacking I used vtserver to load up a test RL02 cart with RT11. It was simple and worked great. It took 2-3 hours to load but I was not in a hurry. Now days I use 9-track since I have a SCSI drive I can make takes using my linux boxes. -brad From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 17:41:03 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:41:03 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <008601c58409$ebbecf90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <008601c58409$ebbecf90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On 7/8/05, Jay West wrote: > I only have one RK05, and it's destined for my PDP-8E, and I'm unlikely to > ever find more. Many list members have scads of them, but to me RK05's are > pretty much unobtanium in my area. I have a few drives and a few controllers (Unibus, Qbus, OMNIBUS), but I realize that they aren't easy to find anymore. Years ago, they were available in stacks for the hauling, but like most stuff, they are rarer now. > I'll go with either an RL02 or RA81. That limits you in terms of UNIX - smaller Unices don't have MSCP support (not even unpatched 2.9BSD), and newer ones need lots of core (1MB?) UNIX from the early 1980s should fit on an RL02 as long as it's a new enough version for RL support (not an impossible requirement). With v5 RT11 or semi-recent versions of RSTS, you'll be able to use your RA81 or your RL02. I find RT-11 on an RL02 is a really nice fit. I did a contract in the late 1980s on an 11/23 w/RL01 for OS/application development and the RL02 was solely to hold an 8MB data file. Plenty of room. > Thanks for the input! You bet. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 17:45:48 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:45:48 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <00a901c5840a$dcfd89f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <17102.46360.889492.697943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <17102.53014.517275.983555@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <00a901c5840a$dcfd89f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On 7/8/05, Jay West wrote: > Ok, so the obvious question is... > > If I add a 2nd bay..... > > 1) How unobtanium are the parts necessary to bolt the two H960 racks > together? I don't remember ever afixing H960s together - just cranking down the feet so they didn't move. Newer racks (like the 42" corporate-style cabs) _did_ have panels to lock racks together, but I think that was a new thing in the early 1980s. > 2) Can the MF11-L be present in the machine along with the M7891 in the BA11 > (in the 2nd rack)? Can both the core and the semiconductor be used at the > same time? Or do I need to pull the core boards out of the MF11 to use the > M7891 in the BA11? Ooh... can't help with something that processor specific, sorry. If I had to guess, it'd be easier to have one or the other, not both. In the case of semi-modern OSes, I wouldn't worry about core - it's really nice when you are loading things from papertape and when you are toggling bootstraps, but when you can press a switch to load fresh from the boot disk, the non-volatility of core is less important. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 17:58:01 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:58:01 -0500 Subject: DEC RDxx drives (compatability)? In-Reply-To: <200507082232.j68MWHMi013983@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <008101c58409$42a2e130$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <200507082232.j68MWHMi013983@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On 7/8/05, Brad Parker wrote: > nope. RQDX3 is MFM. Think ST-225. or ST-251 - 40MB is quite a bit for some applications. -ethan From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Jul 8 18:02:58 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:02:58 -0500 Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050708180258.344aaf59.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 09:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > > > > > > Oops, sorry, didn't see that. Give me your address then. Make > > > sure you have 800 square feet of space in your backyard cleared > > > out. I figure we can stack the containers three high side by > > > side. > > > > > > Expect delivery in about 6 weeks. > > > > I can take the delivery, empty farmland behind - Let's get started! > > Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had > an open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave > Tony a break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has > the energy and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the > offer, open to anyone who thinks they can pull it off: > > You have 24 hours to unload every last IC and piece of paper in my > warehouse. You are allowed one (and only one) helper of your > choosing. You must take it all. Shelving is optional. > > If you are unable to have everything removed from my warehouse by the > time the 24 hours is up, you must put everything back where you found > it. You will also have to pay for anything you broke. > > I'm quite serious. > > Now, who's up for it? > Be careful, there may be a gold recycler lurking. Those sorts could probably fit it all in TWO containers. And pack it all in VERY fast. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jul 8 18:03:04 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:03:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC RDxx drives (compatability)? In-Reply-To: <008101c58409$42a2e130$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jul 08, 2005 05:06:15 PM Message-ID: <200507082303.j68N34cB020453@onyx.spiritone.com> > I came across a large pile of Micropolis 1558 ESDI drives today. No clue > what the owner wants for them. I was wondering if these might be compatible > with an 11/23's RQDX3 controller? > > Jay > The RQDX3 is a MFM controller, so they won't work. However, if you get ahold of something like a WQESD/04, then you'll have something much better than the RQDX3 ever was (though you might want to keep it installed to drive a floppy). Zane From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Jul 8 18:08:09 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:08:09 -0500 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive) In-Reply-To: <008101c583f9$f7f6f720$5b7da418@game> References: <008101c583f9$f7f6f720$5b7da418@game> Message-ID: <20050708180809.44ad42cb.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:16:47 -0400 "Teo Zenios" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Donzelli" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 2:59 PM > Subject: Re: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber > on HP 9825 tape drive) > > > > > And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > > > The scary thing is that I have seen a team of two guys actually > > clean up a warehouse pile like that in 24 hours. > > > > William Donzelli > > aw288 at osfn.org > > > > I would assume its easy if you are just throwing the contents into a > few trash bins out back. Moving the contents in an organized fashion > without breaking anything would be a bit impossible (hence the bet, > and the break it you bought it clause). > The roughnecks wouldn't care if they broke it. The rules were that they just had to have it all out by the time limit. heh It's dangerous to post this kind of challange. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jul 8 18:08:18 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:08:18 -0500 Subject: New addition to the family. In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050708170913.0a824d20@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050708170913.0a824d20@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <200507081808.18499.pat@computer-refuge.org> Tom Uban declared on Friday 08 July 2005 05:10 pm: > Cool stuff Pat! > > How much power does that baby draw? When I measured it, about 4A of 240V single phase. I didn't measure it when it was fully up, but it probably doesn't draw more than another couple amps when running. > Did it come with and disk drives? No, but if I decide to get it running something besides Linux, I've got an IBM 9343 with 12GB (IIRC) of disk space, which came with the ES/9000 I got a few months ago from St. Louis. > Will we be seeing that at VCF Midwest 1.0? Unfortunately, probably not... the machine requires at least 200V, and I dont think i'll have much luck convincing people to help me move it again unless I buy/rent a forklift or lift-gate for my truck... I will have *something* interesting there, though. I just need to figure out what that'll be. Pat > At 04:49 PM 7/8/2005 -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >I realize that it's a couple years shy of the 10-year rule, but I > > figure that the "coolness" factor of the machine makes up for it. > > > >So, I moved my new Gen 5 S/390 into my garage (and my non-working > > Gen3 out...long story) last night. > > > >Pics and details of the find: > > > >http://www.computer-refuge.org/compcollect/ibm/s390/ > > > >All I can say it "w00t"! :) > > > >Pat > >-- > >Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > >The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 8 18:14:51 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 16:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP 7980SR option question? Message-ID: <20050708231451.B250817D477@bitsavers.org> the 800bpi option is option "-800" From florit at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 18:20:51 2005 From: florit at gmail.com (Louis Florit) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 19:20:51 -0400 Subject: Latindata computers? Message-ID: <46e70d0505070816202cb5387a@mail.gmail.com> This is a shot in the dark, but I figure here is a good place to start. In the 1983-1985 time frame, my father had an accounting firm in Argentina, Buenos Aires. He had bought an Osborne 1 and got it hooked up to an old black and white tv that had been converted to monitor usage, and used it for processing invoices. I learned how to play with CP/M and some Basic programming in the evenings when I was 10-12 years old with that Osborne. After a while, he acquired a second computer to offload some of the printing tasks (no printer buffer back then, which would cause the computer to wait a long time while printing hundreds of invoices- he did get a printer buffer at some point to speed things up). I played with this other computer for a bit; 12" green screen, and I recall it being called a Latindata. I am sure the Osborne 1 programs did not run on it, but *I believe* it ran some version of CP/M. I remember modifying a config file for a game called 'Viborita' [little snake in spanish] and changing the sprite characters for the items in the game. Viborita is your typical snake eating asterisk objects while steering the snake around without eating itself or hitting a wall. Has anyone heard of the Latindata brand and have any history on it/them? I'm curious to find out a bit more of them. Old-computers.com doesn't seem to have any entries on it. Kind regards, Louis -- Louis Florit AIM: lflorit MSN:louis_florit at hotmail.com Y!: indygolunaria From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 17:45:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:45:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050707215548.06c8346a.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jul 7, 5 09:55:48 pm Message-ID: > Figuring out alien unmarked and complex resistor networks is a nerds > treat. It's a mathematical puzzle in physical form. I am not sure exactly what a 'nerd' is, but on the grounds that I enjoyed working this out, I guess it makes me one. [If you assume that all resistors are pin-to-pin, with no internal junctions, which seems to he good for the HP DIP networks, then you can deduce the resistors and connections by : 1) Measuring the resistance from each pin to all the other pins shorted togetner 2) Shorting all but 2 of the pins together (and call that 'ground'), then apply a known voltage to one of the leftover pins and measure the votlage on the other odd pin. Calculate the voltage division ratio. The first gives you the effective resistance of all the resistors to a given pin connected in parallel. The second gives you the ratio of one of the resistors to all the others in parallel. From that you can calculate that resistor.) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 17:47:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:47:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <42CE0F76.1030703@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jul 7, 5 10:30:30 pm Message-ID: > > Also, use the MOS memory from the 11/34 to boot. > > -- > > Doesn't this require a DD11 backplane with Modified Unibus Device (MUD) > slots? Yes, but if you don't have one, it's not hard to wire-wrap. I did this before I even knew what a MUD device was... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 17:49:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:49:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: 50 Hz Shugart SA-851s... In-Reply-To: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Jul 8, 5 06:14:03 am Message-ID: > to work out a trade? Alternatively, it just occurred to me > that maybe I could just exchange pulley wheels with someone? Or skim them down a bit in a lathe. Remember the pulley should be slightly barrel-shaped (or the belt will fly off). And that IIRC the 60Hz drives take a shorter drive belt than the 50Hz ones (becuase of the smaller motor pulley), but you could problably move the motor out far enough to deal with that. AFAIK the spindle pulley is the same in all drives. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 17:51:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:51:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: <1120822713.17516.12.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jul 8, 5 11:38:33 am Message-ID: > Actually, I'd not heard of the blue-cased machines before. Maybe they're > in standard off-the-shelf instrument cases rather than with RML logos, > panel cut-outs etc.? The black case is a standard (Vero iIRC) case. It was designed to take a 19" rack chassis, but RML just mounted the PSU and card guides inside. OK, the cutouts and logos are custom, but that's all. > Oh, Xebec board in my fileserver is an S1410, for which I have a manual > and a couple of spare boards, so I can do some messing around with a PC > parallel port driver. There's even a sample Z80 interface schematic in > the back of the manual that's probably adaptable... > > Still concerned about timings though as some of the timing diagrams do > have upper constraints on signal changes (a lot of them only specify a > minimum limit). Time will tell if the PC's port is quick enough... I think (wihtout trying it), you can go as slowly as you like. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 17:27:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:27:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050707214515.18aa1d91.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jul 7, 5 09:45:15 pm Message-ID: > Those early AT systems are eminently repairable, and 'understandable' on > the chip-level, since there aren't the 'mystery' chipset conglomeration Now why do you think I am using one (admittedly much-hacked, kludgewires and extra chips on some of the boards) right now.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 17:58:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:58:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <00a001c583cd$3aa0d3c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jul 8, 5 09:56:32 am Message-ID: > > No cable for the DSD setup eh? Hmmm, must still be in the garage.... > > It is a normal ribbon cable just as you suspect. > I bought a 26 conductor 10 foot rainbow ribbon cable yesterday, along with a > few 2x13 IDC connectors. So, I'll just make my own connector. As I recall, > rainbow ribbon cables normally use brown for pin 1. I also bit the bullet Yes. Just follow the normal colour code. You know : 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Better Buy Resistor Or Your Grid Bias May Go West L R E R E R L A R H A O D A L E U G E I C W N L E E E Y T K N G O N N E E W T A > and bought an IDC crimp tool, I've used a bench vise in the past and it just > doesn't work well - too many broken connectors ;) Odd... I've crimped dozens of connectors in the vice and had no problems. If it's a connector with exposed pins, like those DIL transition headers, I put the pins into a pluigblock type of 'breadboard' first. It's about all seid breadboards are useful for... > > As for mounting the RL01, there is still an H-960 sitting here! > > I think I also have a box of floppy disks for the DSD setup. > I have an H-960 spare. I was REALLY hoping to make the 11/45 a single bay > setup, but it doesn't seem that is really possible. I'll have to hunt up a Why not? In one of my H960s, I have the 11/45 CPU with it's PSUs (bottom 3 bays). Then an RX02 -- that doesn't obstruct the cooling to the CPU from what I've found. Then an RK05, but you could put an RL there. On top is the RK11-C controller at the front and its H720 PSU at the back. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 17:38:49 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:38:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: <20050707215106.0f4d6c80.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jul 7, 5 09:51:06 pm Message-ID: > My first 'PC' used an early non-turbo XT-clone motherboard I bought at a > swapmeet. At the same swapmeet I bought an original 63.5 watt IBM > supply, a used 'Leading Edge, model D' case (just the sheet metal bits), > and an IBM MDA card. I already had an IBM keyboard that had no case on > it. When I got the whole mess home, the only way to fit the XT > motherboard in the case was to cut away all but one of the 'card edge > slots' in the LE case as it used different card connector spacing. The > only way to fit the power supply was to strip it entirely out of it's > original IBM case and mount the circuit board on standoffs in the > Leading Edge case. So that's what I did. Add two 360K floppy drives > and an original IBM MDA card and you've got my first PC. What a > conglomeration that system was. It lasted for years and years. It > makes the 'case modding' that enthusiasts dabble in today look like > childsplay. If we're having those sort of tales... This machine started out as an IBM PC/AT (8MHz version. It's got a 486 kludgeboard in place of the 286, but said kludgeboard was designed to fit the PLCC type of socket, not the PGA one. You were supposed to plug a PLCC socket into the PGA one if neccessary, but doing that made the board sit so high up that it blocked one of the expansion slots. Out with a soldering iron, off with the PGA socket, and in with a PLCC one. Then there was the drive table. I wanted to use a large hard disk than IBM had an entry for. I found out that the last 8K of the ROMs contained the various data tables. Programmed a couple of 2764s with the new tables, pluged them into the 'spare' ROM sockets on the motherboard, added a couple od TTL chips and kludgewires to do the address decoding. Clone MDA card. It got the timing of the wait signal wrong. More kludgewires and an unused gate in one of the chips fixed that. Early IDE card. TTL, a couple of PALs, and a floppy controller chip (I forget which one). A bit of stripboard as a daughterboard, fitted under a couple of the ICs, and carrying a couple more TTL chips to stretch the read and write signals to the IDE port, to drive the 'in use' LED. Only RC delays I'm afraid, but good enough for this. Fortunately this card can go in the slot next to the PSU, so the overhanging daughterboard doesn't waste a slot. One of the RAM cards started out life as an IBM 128K card. I reverse-engineered the bits IBM didn't document and worked out that it could take 2 rows of 256K chips (1M byte), not just 1 row of 64K chips (128K). So that's what I did. And the real time clock battery. I am not paying ridiculous amounts for the right lithium battery. In went a battery holder, a series diode, and 4 AA cells. They last about 3 years, and they're cheap to replace. Easy to get too. There must be more I've forgotten about.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 18:11:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 00:11:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jul 8, 5 11:02:12 am Message-ID: > > Ok, so I have a working processor, and a basement full of peripherals. I'm > not sure which way to go with the rest of the build. I'm not really up on > DEC stuff I admit, so maybe others here can offer me some advice as to what > is the best way to proceed. > > Background: > My 11/45 (11/45-CA actually) has the KB11-A processor, no FP. It's the older > style with the power distribution board on the back wall of the cpu cabinet OK, mine is like that. I rebuilt the power harness to give me an extra 5V feed from another regulator block to the expansion backplanes. The stock system is a bit current-limited there. > rather than on top. However, it's also got the newer 861A power control in > the bottom rather than the dual 860's in the top. There is the two H742A's > as well. I have one system unit installed - MF-11L in which is installed 8K > of core. In the cpu backplane there are three unibus slots which I believe > will take three quad? (C-F) boards. A&B in two of those slots are used for Yes, they are standard SPC slots. Don't forget you'll have to play around with the NPG jumper on the wire-side of the backplane if you put a DMA device -- like an RX211 -- in one of those slots. > the unibus A to unibus B jumper, and A&B of the last slot is the connector > to A&B of the MF-11L. The MF-11L has a 9312 in the last A&B slot. The SPC? > boards currently installed are two DL11's and a M7228. The ONLY board in > slot one is a 930C terminator in A&B. I have no MMU, so slot 13 is empty and > slot 14 has the M8116. Pity. You really need that MMU. You are limited to 28kW of memory without it. > > Separately, I have a lot of peripherals to choose from. Scads of RL02's, > DSD440, LincTape II, RX01's, RX02's, RA81's, etc. I also have a BA11-KU with > a DD11-DK backplane in it. > > Problem: > The unibus space on the cpu backplane is quite limited. At the VERY least I > have to keep one of the DL11's there, so that leaves me with two more unibus > slots for peripherals. I *THINK* that that standard controller for an RX02 > or RL02 takes all 6 rows (Hex cards?). However, the DSD440 controller only The RX02 controller (RX211) is a quad card and can go in the CPU backplane. The RL11 is a hex card though. > takes slots C-F (quad?). The linctape II controller also only takes C-F. So, > I think I could have a reasonable system by putting the DSD440 controller, > LincTape controller, and a DL11 and be done with it. However, I then am > limited to using core memory in the MF11. At the very best, I can get... YOu have space for 3 'system units' behind the CPU backplane. The MF11, IIRC, takes up 2 of them. You can fit a 4-slot backplane in as well. If you are mildly eccentric, you can wire-wrap said backplane to be 2 quad SPC slots, 2 hex SPC slots with MUD wiring on the top 2 connectors. That might be enough for you. > what... 32K in a MF11? I think I can get the additional core boards. But > correct me if I'm wrong but isn't sticking with core (max 32K) going to make > my operating system choices extremely limited? I'm guessing I can't run RSTS > or Unix on it with that kinda memory. vtserver I think requires a full load > of 128KW. On top of it all, the DSD440 takes most of the rack depth, as does > an RL02, so I've been advised against mounting anything above the /45 except > maybe the linctape. I would only put a 'short' unit immediately above the 11/45 CPU, but above that you can put an RL or something. > > Possible solutions: > 1) I just got a M7891 (64KW) off Ebay. I could yank out the MF-11L system > unit, yank out the DD11-DK from the spare BA11, and install the DD11 in the > cpu cabinet. I'd use the unibus memory M7891, ditch the core, and have a > fair number of slots left over in the DD11. However, there's problems with > this approach. I'd still be mounting stuff above the /45 (DSD440 & Linctape > at the least), and maybe an RL02. In other words, this would fix the memory > and unibus slot availability, but I believe I'd still be restricting the > airflow/cooling too much :\ Plus I'd need to find some of those rare Mate & > Lock connectors to get the DD11 into the /45 cabinet and do some power The easiest place to find those connectors is to raid current-loop serial cables.... > harness building. I guess I might need one or more regulators for this > approach as well. Then I'd have to find/buy a KT11-C to USE the M7891 I > think.... I'm probably talking about unobtanium stuff aren't I :| -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 18:12:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 00:12:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jul 8, 5 09:35:31 am Message-ID: > Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had an > open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave Tony a > break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has the energy > and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the offer, open to As you've never met me, what leads you to that conclusion? -tony From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Jul 8 18:49:08 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 19:49:08 -0400 Subject: DEC RDxx drives (compatability)? In-Reply-To: <008101c58409$42a2e130$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <008101c58409$42a2e130$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42CF10F4.nail58M11JV03@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Micropolis 1558 ESDI + RQDX3 ? No. The cabling looks similar (one wide and one narrow cable) but they do not work with each other. If you can find a Webster/Sigma Q-bus ESDI controller, though, you are in fat city. When I moved off a RQDX3 and onto the ESDI controller circa 1990, I was so happy. Emulex ESDI controllers aren't too shabby either. (Although I far prefer the Websters.) Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 18:20:20 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 00:20:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: <200507081930.MAA25133@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at Jul 8, 5 12:30:54 pm Message-ID: > Hi Tony > I'm proposing an experiment for you since I know that > you are the type that would actually try it. I am going to try this, although probably not tonight... However, even if it does bahave as you suggest, it still doesn't explain _why_... I will have to think about this some more... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jul 8 18:27:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 00:27:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <00a901c5840a$dcfd89f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jul 8, 5 05:17:43 pm Message-ID: > > Ok, so the obvious question is... > > If I add a 2nd bay..... > > 1) How unobtanium are the parts necessary to bolt the two H960 racks > together? IIRC, it's just 8 nuts and bolts. Or at least that's what I used to fix the 2 racks of my 11/45 system together. > 2) Can the MF11-L be present in the machine along with the M7891 in the BA11 > (in the 2nd rack)? Can both the core and the semiconductor be used at the > same time? Or do I need to pull the core boards out of the MF11 to use the > M7891 in the BA11? You can have any mix of memory up to the maximum amount your processor can address. If you have the KT11-C boards, you could, for example, have 32kW card and 92kW MOS (remember 4kW of the address space goes to the I/O page). Provided you give all the boards the right power, it'll work fine. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 8 19:03:21 2005 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 17:03:21 -0700 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. Message-ID: <42CF1449.4050201@bitsavers.org> > 1) How unobtanium are the parts necessary to bolt the two H960 racks > together? IIRC, it's just 8 nuts and bolts. Or at least that's what I used to fix the 2 racks of my 11/45 system together. -- There are supposed to be two black filler strips, orig metal and later of plastic, roughly .5" x 2 " x 6 ft between each rack. The one that goes on the front has a slot to allow space for the magenta/wild rose top panels. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Fri Jul 8 19:34:49 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 20:34:49 -0400 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <42CF1449.4050201@bitsavers.org> References: <42CF1449.4050201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <42CF1BA9.nail5HY11E4V7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > 1) How unobtanium are the parts necessary to bolt the two H960 > racks together? I always used 1/4-20 bolts, washers, and nuts. If you're in Europe maybe M6 hardware would be appropriate. Tim. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jul 8 19:30:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 17:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had an > > open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave Tony a > > break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has the energy > > and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the offer, open to > > As you've never met me, what leads you to that conclusion? Ok, feel free to try then. The gauntlet has been thrown down. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jul 8 20:06:27 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 18:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Jul 8, 5 05:30:54 pm" Message-ID: <200507090106.SAA16732@floodgap.com> > > > Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had an > > > open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave Tony a > > > break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has the energy > > > and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the offer, open to > > > > As you've never met me, what leads you to that conclusion? > > Ok, feel free to try then. The gauntlet has been thrown down. I wouldn't do that. What if he were a mass murderer instead of a computer programmer? A throw-down just gets you an axe in the head. ;) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Eeny, Meeny, Jelly Beanie, the spirits are about to speak! -- Bullwinkle --- From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jul 8 20:36:33 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200507090140.VAA20581@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [If you assume that all resistors are pin-to-pin, with no internal > junctions, which seems to he good for the HP DIP networks, then you > can deduce the resistors and connections by : [...]] I haven't thought about it enough to be sure, but I have a feeling that any resistor network is equivalent to some such pin-to-pin network. Anybody know enough theory to confirm this, or explain why it's false? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 21:05:02 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:05:02 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <5.2.0.9.0.20050708172331.022bdec0@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <005a01c5842a$9e14e6f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I had written.... >>I have two other H960 racks, guess I'll have to add one to the /45 and >>make it a dual bay system. The other H960 will probably go to the 11/34 >>restoration. And..... I was wrong. Just checked and I only have one other H960 rack. That means if I go with a dual bay /45, I have no H960 to mount the /34 in. Bummer. I'll just have to find a way to mount the /34 in one of those lowboy white corporate cabinets. Not as common of a setup as the H960's, but I'm not really up for freighting another H960, trying to find more side panels... etc. So choosing between the two, I'll use my only other H960 to make the /45 dualbay. > As long as you leave enough room for air to enter the top of the BA11-F, > you > should be able to mount peripherals above the CPU bay. You will likely > need > to leave the back, sides, or front panels off in order to allow a space > for > the air to enter. Ohhhhh no! I went to WAY too much trouble to locate side panels for my two H960's. Ain't no way I'm gonna leave them off to the side. A dual bay /45 it shall be :) I had exactly enough of those "two black post snap-on bracket thingies" that hold the front cover panels on.... for 1 bay. Now that it's going to be a dual bay setup, I'm short those black post snap-on bracket thingies. Maybe it's time for me to re-read that article on the classiccmp knowledgebase about casting plastic parts :). Worse, the rack I have the /45 in has a "Digital" masthead. The other H960 doesn't. That especially sucks, seeing as they are apparently worth 4 times their weight in gold on ebay for someone who wants to hang one on a wall :\ Jay From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jul 8 21:12:05 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 21:12:05 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <42CF1449.4050201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050708211059.02334730@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 05:03 PM 7/8/2005 -0700, you wrote: > > 1) How unobtanium are the parts necessary to bolt the two H960 racks > > together? > >IIRC, it's just 8 nuts and bolts. Or at least that's what I used to fix >the 2 racks of my 11/45 system together. > > >-- > >There are supposed to be two black filler strips, orig metal and later of >plastic, roughly .5" x 2 " x 6 ft between each rack. The one that goes on >the front has a slot to allow space for the magenta/wild rose top panels. Yes. Those strips would be nice to have, but they do not provide any actual functionality that is necessary. --tom From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jul 8 21:14:13 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 21:14:13 -0500 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") References: Message-ID: <008501c5842b$e7093e50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote (re: DD11-DK) > Yes, but if you don't have one, it's not hard to wire-wrap. I did this > before I even knew what a MUD device was... Stupid question.... Does a DD11-DK backplane have these "MUD" slots by default? Jay From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 22:36:58 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 23:36:58 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah, all the sniping services I've seen just jack the bid up by a set incriment On 7/8/05 1:31 PM, "Vintage Computer Festival" wrote: > On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > >> I don't rely on snipe services - unless they jack you to your max >> *instantly* instead of in incriments, nailing your highest at the last >> minute and having the snipe program check and raise and check and raise >> takes time, and it most likely won't hit your max during that last single >> minute, heh > > If a sniper service works like that then it's foolish and retarded. The > main reason I use a sniping service is to manage my bids for me. First of > all, for all the obvious reasons, bidding anytime before the imminent end > of an eBay auction is pointless. Second, I submit what I'm willing to > pay, and the sniper gets my bid in at the last possible reasonable second. > If I win, great. If I win for less than what I was willing to pay, even > better. If I don't, terrific! I saved my money for a rainy day. From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Jul 8 22:57:55 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:57:55 -0400 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sniping is good. I bid on an item *without* sniping and I bid my max bid of $20. At the last minute, a guy bid $5, then $8, then $16. I ended up with paying $16.5. If I sniped it, I would have paid $5.5. On 7/8/05, Gary Sparkes wrote: > Ah, all the sniping services I've seen just jack the bid up by a set > incriment > > > On 7/8/05 1:31 PM, "Vintage Computer Festival" wrote: > > > On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > > > >> I don't rely on snipe services - unless they jack you to your max > >> *instantly* instead of in incriments, nailing your highest at the last > >> minute and having the snipe program check and raise and check and raise > >> takes time, and it most likely won't hit your max during that last single > >> minute, heh > > > > If a sniper service works like that then it's foolish and retarded. The > > main reason I use a sniping service is to manage my bids for me. First of > > all, for all the obvious reasons, bidding anytime before the imminent end > > of an eBay auction is pointless. Second, I submit what I'm willing to > > pay, and the sniper gets my bid in at the last possible reasonable second. > > If I win, great. If I win for less than what I was willing to pay, even > > better. If I don't, terrific! I saved my money for a rainy day. > > > From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 9 00:18:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 22:18:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Gary Sparkes wrote: > Ah, all the sniping services I've seen just jack the bid up by a set > incriment If they do then they are foolish and retarded. The whole point of a "sniping" "service" is to actually submit a "snipe" for you, not play high bid tag with some other sniping service's dumb bot. With what I use--StealthBid--you tell it what item you want to bid on and how much you're willing to pay. At the last second (almost literally) it submits your bid. If you win, great! If you win for a price lower than your high offer, even better. If not, you save your pennies for the better one coming up tomorrow. A sniping service as you describe completely defeats the purpose and is not really "sniping" (in the eBay sense*) at all. It opens you up to paying MORE than you would with a true snipe. * what a stupid euphemism to use for this...who's the idiot that came up with that? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Jul 9 01:11:55 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 01:11:55 -0500 Subject: E-bay complaints: was Re: "Response" from seller with the "Apple-1" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42CF6AAB.9060904@mdrconsult.com> Gary Sparkes wrote: > Ah, all the sniping services I've seen just jack the bid up by a set > incriment Never heard of a sniping tool doing that. Which ones are you looking at? Doc From cc at corti-net.de Sat Jul 9 04:50:48 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 11:50:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 11/45 is alive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: >> I have an H-960 spare. I was REALLY hoping to make the 11/45 a single bay >> setup, but it doesn't seem that is really possible. I'll have to hunt up a > Why not? In one of my H960s, I have the 11/45 CPU with it's PSUs (bottom > 3 bays). Then an RX02 -- that doesn't obstruct the cooling to the CPU > from what I've found. Then an RK05, but you could put an RL there. On top > is the RK11-C controller at the front and its H720 PSU at the back. I have a single rack 11/45 system with one RK05 on top, then a RL02, a RK02 and then the CPU. All controller cards are in the CPU box itself, the RK11-D has its own backplane and fits into the CPU box, and there's an additional 4-slot DD11. In total, I have the CPU boards including FPP, two DL11-W cards (one for the console, one for auxiliary stuff), a 128kW MOS memory board, the RL11 controller (hex board), the RX211 controller (quad board) and the RX11-D controller at the end (with terminator card on the Unibus out slot). There's still space for another 4-slot backplane in the box. And all the stuff runs happily together and consumes only about 1300 watts (it's standard to have 230V outlets with 16A fusing here, a washing machines takes 2000W and the condensing dryer over 3000W). BTW I run RT11 or 2.9BSD on a RK05 disk. Yes, I have a small single RK05 disk 2.9BSD system (including a 256kB swap space!) with stuff like kermit etc. which I mainly use for playing around or data transfers. I think there's even the compiler on the disk. Christian From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 9 06:01:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 04:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wildly OT Message-ID: Just off-hand, does anyone in London know what's at 75 Tottenham Court Road? I'm playing with one of those silly little cashier's check scammers and that's the address he gave me. He's sending his "check" to the White House. Heheh :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From javickers at solutionengineers.com Sat Jul 9 06:28:02 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Ade Vickers) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 12:28:02 +0100 Subject: Wildly OT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507091137.j69Bb8mv012494@keith.ezwind.net> Goodge Street Tube station.... Sounds like a dodgy bore to me! ;) Cheers, Ade -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: 09 July 2005 12:01 To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: Wildly OT Just off-hand, does anyone in London know what's at 75 Tottenham Court Road? I'm playing with one of those silly little cashier's check scammers and that's the address he gave me. He's sending his "check" to the White House. Heheh :) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/44 - Release Date: 08/07/2005 From dieymir at yahoo.es Sat Jul 9 06:30:31 2005 From: dieymir at yahoo.es (Diego Rodriguez) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 13:30:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Programming Language Inventor or Serial Killer? In-Reply-To: <200507071700.j67H03Cl051189@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050709113031.41900.qmail@web26408.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > > Message: 9 > Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:03:05 -0700 (PDT) > From: Vintage Computer Festival > Subject: Programming Language Inventor or Serial Killer? > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/ > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:15:02 -0700 (PDT) > From: Cameron Kaiser > Subject: Re: Programming Language Inventor or Serial Killer? > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <200507071615.JAA16098 at floodgap.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > > http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz/ > > w00t, I got 7/10! Ha ha! I will slaughter you all, I mean, I did > well. > > LOL I got 9/10. I though that John W. Mauchly was a serial killer... ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, m?s seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From pechter at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 11:31:56 2005 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 12:31:56 -0400 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <008501c5842b$e7093e50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <008501c5842b$e7093e50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42CFFBFC.5060501@gmail.com> Jay West wrote: > Tony wrote (re: DD11-DK) > >> Yes, but if you don't have one, it's not hard to wire-wrap. I did this >> before I even knew what a MUD device was... > > > Stupid question.... Does a DD11-DK backplane have these "MUD" slots by > default? > > Jay > Yes... Bill From mross666 at hotmail.com Sat Jul 9 12:13:21 2005 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 17:13:21 +0000 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 23, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: <200507091700.j69H03TM083379@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Subject: Re: Take My Warehouse, Please! >At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > > >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ > >Ah, thank you. I will rub these pictures like cool smooth stones >against my temples when I need to reassure myself that >"I may think I have a lot of junk, but at least I'm not as crazy as Xxxx." I have to say, I thought that was a piss-poor collection. Seriously unimpressed. A warehouse full of 'stuff', but there wasn't a single machine that I couldn't *pick up*... :-) Mike http://www.corestore.org From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jul 9 12:23:29 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 13:23:29 -0400 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 23, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D00811.nailFTN1LY2K7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Seriously unimpressed. A warehouse full of 'stuff', but there wasn't > a single machine that I couldn't *pick up*... I get the impression that there are other warehouses filled with racks of the big iron stuff. I think the pictures we saw were just of the "little bits". Sort of like the glove compartment of a semi :-). Tim. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sat Jul 9 13:03:01 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:03:01 +0200 Subject: DEC VR319 anyone ? Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050709200158.04116f98@pop.xs4all.nl> Is anyone here interested in a DEC VR319 for free to pickup or postage ? Otherwise it'll go into the dumpster. Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 9 13:04:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 11:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 23, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, Mike Ross wrote: > Subject: Re: Take My Warehouse, Please! > > >At 12:01 PM 7/8/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > > > > >http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ > > > >Ah, thank you. I will rub these pictures like cool smooth stones > >against my temples when I need to reassure myself that > >"I may think I have a lot of junk, but at least I'm not as crazy as Xxxx." > > I have to say, I thought that was a piss-poor collection. Seriously > unimpressed. A warehouse full of 'stuff', but there wasn't a single machine > that I couldn't *pick up*... You just couldn't see them ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From technobug at comcast.net Sat Jul 9 13:25:23 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 11:25:23 -0700 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <200507091633.j69GXU3R083199@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507091633.j69GXU3R083199@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3959FB42-C465-4A08-9CA6-9EBF6DAD5254@comcast.net> On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:58:52 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) recalled: > Yes. Just follow the normal colour code. You know : > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 > Better Buy Resistor Or Your Grid Bias May Go West > L R E R E R L A R H > A O D A L E U G E I > C W N L E E E Y T > K N G O N N E > E W T > A Egads! One of the most sanitized versions of the mnemonic I have heard. CRC From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sat Jul 9 14:00:22 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 21:00:22 +0200 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") References: <200507091633.j69GXU3R083199@dewey.classiccmp.org> <3959FB42-C465-4A08-9CA6-9EBF6DAD5254@comcast.net> Message-ID: <001101c584b8$758f1f50$2101a8c0@finans> From: "CRC" > > Yes. Just follow the normal colour code. You know : > > > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 > > Better Buy Resistor Or Your Grid Bias May Go West > > L R E R E R L A R H > > A O D A L E U G E I > > C W N L E E E Y T > > K N G O N N E > > E W T > > A > > Egads! One of the most sanitized versions of the mnemonic I have heard. Might one ask for an unsanitzed version ? If this is against "company rules", you might want to mail them directly :-) Nico From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jul 9 15:09:45 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 14:09:45 -0600 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <3959FB42-C465-4A08-9CA6-9EBF6DAD5254@comcast.net> References: <200507091633.j69GXU3R083199@dewey.classiccmp.org> <3959FB42-C465-4A08-9CA6-9EBF6DAD5254@comcast.net> Message-ID: <42D02F09.4030601@jetnet.ab.ca> CRC wrote: > > On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:58:52 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony > Duell) recalled: > > >> Yes. Just follow the normal colour code. You know : >> >> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >> Better Buy Resistor Or Your Grid Bias May Go West >> L R E R E R L A R H >> A O D A L E U G E I >> C W N L E E E Y T >> K N G O N N E >> E W T >> A > > > Egads! One of the most sanitized versions of the mnemonic I have heard. Now what is GRID BIAS ... :) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 9 14:49:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 20:49:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jul 9, 5 00:20:20 am Message-ID: > > > Hi Tony > > I'm proposing an experiment for you since I know that > > you are the type that would actually try it. > > I am going to try this, although probably not tonight... > > However, even if it does bahave as you suggest, it still doesn't explain > _why_... I will have to think about this some more... Sorry to follow up my own message, but I spent last night thinking about it, and I think I now understand it. The things that are important are (a) the belt is elastic and therefore stretches, and (b) the drage from the spools means that the tension in the belt is not the same all the way round. There is more tension in the belt on the takeup side than on the supply side. Supppos that a certain length of belt has gone past the supply spool (and thus wound off that length of tape). As it goes round the takeup spool the belt will be stretched a little more, so it will move the surface of that spool by more than the amount that the surface of the supply spool was moved. It will try to wind more tape onto the takeup spool, thus tensioning the tape. For obvious reasons this effect is small. It helps to have the tape fairly well tensioned before using the cartridge. If you're reassembling a defective one, I'd tension the tape as much as possible by hand. If you could make a cartridge with the belt round the outside, and with the drive roller possitioned far enough forward to let the bead get in contact with the tape (inside the loop formed by the belt), it wouldn't work. There'd be more movement on the supply side, the tape would get ever more slack. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 9 14:51:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 20:51:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC 11/45 build - advice sought, parts requested possibly. In-Reply-To: <42CF1449.4050201@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jul 8, 5 05:03:21 pm Message-ID: > > > 1) How unobtanium are the parts necessary to bolt the two H960 racks > > together? > > IIRC, it's just 8 nuts and bolts. Or at least that's what I used to fix > the 2 racks of my 11/45 system together. > > > -- > > There are supposed to be two black filler strips, orig metal and later of > plastic, roughly .5" x 2 " x 6 ft between each rack. The one that goes on > the front has a slot to allow space for the magenta/wild rose top panels. > You don't actually need those, though. You can just bolt the racks together through the obvious holes, and the top panels, etc, all fit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 9 14:51:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 20:51:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jul 8, 5 05:30:54 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had an > > > open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave Tony a > > > break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has the energy > > > and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the offer, open to > > > > As you've never met me, what leads you to that conclusion? > > Ok, feel free to try then. The gauntlet has been thrown down. I didn't say it wasn't true, I asked why you came to that conclusion. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 9 14:55:36 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 20:55:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC 11/45 build In-Reply-To: <005a01c5842a$9e14e6f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jul 8, 5 09:05:02 pm Message-ID: > I had exactly enough of those "two black post snap-on bracket thingies" that > hold the front cover panels on.... for 1 bay. Now that it's going to be a Those things are a right pain, and break if you look at them wrongly. I try to avoid empty space in my racks anyway... > dual bay setup, I'm short those black post snap-on bracket thingies. Maybe > it's time for me to re-read that article on the classiccmp knowledgebase > about casting plastic parts :). Worse, the rack I have the /45 in has a > "Digital" masthead. The other H960 doesn't. That especially sucks, seeing as IIRC the first cabinet -- the one coantining hte CPU, should have a top panel with 'Digital PDP11' on it. All other racks have one that is the same colours, but with no writing on it. Alas I've not got one of the second type. Both cabinets of my 11/45 system have the 'Digitial PDP11' top panels. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 9 15:04:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 21:04:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <3959FB42-C465-4A08-9CA6-9EBF6DAD5254@comcast.net> from "CRC" at Jul 9, 5 11:25:23 am Message-ID: > > > On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:58:52 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > (Tony Duell) recalled: > > > > Yes. Just follow the normal colour code. You know : > > > > 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 > > Better Buy Resistor Or Your Grid Bias May Go West > > L R E R E R L A R H > > A O D A L E U G E I > > C W N L E E E Y T > > K N G O N N E > > E W T > > A > > Egads! One of the most sanitized versions of the mnemonic I have heard. Well you can have 'Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly -- Get Some Now' if you prefer (the last 3 words being Gold, Sliver, None, for 5%, 10%, 20% tolerance). Or you can replace the first word by the colour it stands for for a very politically-incorrect version. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jul 9 15:20:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 21:20:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <42D02F09.4030601@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Jul 9, 5 02:09:45 pm Message-ID: > > CRC wrote: > > > > On Fri, 8 Jul 2005 23:58:52 +0100 (BST), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony > > Duell) recalled: > > > > > >> Yes. Just follow the normal colour code. You know : > >> > >> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 > >> Better Buy Resistor Or Your Grid Bias May Go West > >> L R E R E R L A R H > >> A O D A L E U G E I > >> C W N L E E E Y T > >> K N G O N N E > >> E W T > >> A > > > > > > Egads! One of the most sanitized versions of the mnemonic I have heard. > > Now what is GRID BIAS ... :) OK, make it 'Gate Bias' if you insist on these new-fangled FET things... -tony From kth at srv.net Sat Jul 9 16:33:26 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 15:33:26 -0600 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D042A6.3010509@srv.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>>No cable for the DSD setup eh? Hmmm, must still be in the garage.... >>>It is a normal ribbon cable just as you suspect. >>> >>> >>I bought a 26 conductor 10 foot rainbow ribbon cable yesterday, along with a >>few 2x13 IDC connectors. So, I'll just make my own connector. As I recall, >>rainbow ribbon cables normally use brown for pin 1. I also bit the bullet >> >> > >Yes. Just follow the normal colour code. You know : > >0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >Better Buy Resistor Or Your Grid Bias May Go West >L R E R E R L A R H >A O D A L E U G E I >C W N L E E E Y T >K N G O N N E > E W T > A > > > Magenta? Shouldn't that be violet. Bad Beer Rots Our Young Guts, But Vodka Goes Well Black Boys Rape Our Young Girls, But Violet Goes Willingly >>and bought an IDC crimp tool, I've used a bench vise in the past and it just >>doesn't work well - too many broken connectors ;) >> >> > >Odd... I've crimped dozens of connectors in the vice and had no problems. >If it's a connector with exposed pins, like those DIL transition headers, >I put the pins into a pluigblock type of 'breadboard' first. It's about >all seid breadboards are useful for... > > > >>>As for mounting the RL01, there is still an H-960 sitting here! >>>I think I also have a box of floppy disks for the DSD setup. >>> >>> >>I have an H-960 spare. I was REALLY hoping to make the 11/45 a single bay >>setup, but it doesn't seem that is really possible. I'll have to hunt up a >> >> > >Why not? In one of my H960s, I have the 11/45 CPU with it's PSUs (bottom >3 bays). Then an RX02 -- that doesn't obstruct the cooling to the CPU >from what I've found. Then an RK05, but you could put an RL there. On top >is the RK11-C controller at the front and its H720 PSU at the back. > >-tony > > > > From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sat Jul 9 17:01:32 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 00:01:32 +0200 Subject: Teleprint 390 Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710000000.02d5cb10@pop.xs4all.nl> Hi, Can anyone give me some more information about a Teleprint 390 ? I have one now and I think its pretty cool, works just fine but it would be nice to know some background information. Anyone by any chance have any docs they would like to part with ? Thanks! Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jul 9 16:55:05 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 17:55:05 -0400 Subject: FA: Lots of DEC (&Plessy and MDB) manuals and core memory Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050709175505.009c3c00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I just finished putting a bunch of DEC manuals and a complete core memory sub-system on E-bay. I have LOTs more to add as time permits. Joe From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 9 17:05:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 15:05:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drivet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Ok, several people have expressed interest in this "deal". I've had an > > > > open offering of this deal to Hans for a few years now. I gave Tony a > > > > break by allowing him 7 helpers, because I don't think he has the energy > > > > and stamina that Hans does. At any rate, here is the offer, open to > > > > > > As you've never met me, what leads you to that conclusion? > > > > Ok, feel free to try then. The gauntlet has been thrown down. > > I didn't say it wasn't true, I asked why you came to that conclusion. Well, you know, Hans is a virile German lad, and as such he's got quite the stamina, or so he tells me (and so he says the ladies tell him). Hans has expressed interest in my bargain several times, and even he thinks it would be quite a challenge for him. So if you think you are more fit than Hans then I apologize for question your energy output capability. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jul 9 18:08:48 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 18:08:48 -0500 Subject: RA81 slides??!##@$ Message-ID: <000f01c584db$2a619670$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> If someone knows the magic to pull a RA81 out of a rack and off the slides completely, I'd love to know it! I have two in the other H960 that someone mounted backwards in the rack :\ I pull the drive about halfway out and to get it further, flip up the "rocker" catches under the rail. Then it comes all the way out and clicks to a stop. Most rails I've seen... you have to get them about 3/4 of the way out and then a screw will appear in a hole that you have to take out. These slides have that hole but the screws are already out. What obvious trick am I missing? Jay From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Jul 9 18:28:03 2005 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 16:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? Message-ID: <20050709232803.42977.qmail@web40913.mail.yahoo.com> Did anyone find out if that really was an Apple 1 on ebay? ____________________________________________________ Sell on Yahoo! Auctions ? no fees. Bid on great items. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Jul 9 18:30:29 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 19:30:29 -0400 Subject: RA81 slides??!##@$ In-Reply-To: <000f01c584db$2a619670$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000f01c584db$2a619670$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42D05E15.nailITJ1155R9@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > What obvious trick am I missing? Maybe I'm confusing it with the RL02 rails, but on at least one there's a little metal tine on the top of the rail with a rubber "shoe". Lift that up, and you can slide the drive forward about another half inch, which gets it past the lock. If the rack has been shipped with the drive in place but with no screws, it's very likely that a piece of sheet metal is wedged under or into the rubber shoe. Some judicious prying with a long screwdriver usually straightens that out. The tine/shoe keeps the drive interlocked to the rail until you lift it and slide things about half an inch. Tim. From msell at vectorgames.org Sat Jul 9 18:37:08 2005 From: msell at vectorgames.org (Matthew Sell) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 16:37:08 -0700 Subject: OpenVMS 6.2 VAX CDs wanted In-Reply-To: <008501c583ca$6cbfaaa0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> <1120823117.17516.17.camel@weka.localdomain> <008501c583ca$6cbfaaa0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42D05FA4.4000507@vectorgames.org> Hello all, I am looking for a set of OpenVMS 6.2 CDs for VAX - does anyone here have a set for sale? (for hobbyist purposes....) Thanks! From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jul 9 18:40:15 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 18:40:15 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build References: Message-ID: <001801c584df$8f02b560$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote... > IIRC the first cabinet -- the one coantining hte CPU, should have a top > panel with 'Digital PDP11' on it. All other racks have one that is the > same colours, but with no writing on it. Yup, a listmember sold one or two on ebay a few weeks ago, I didn't bother cause I didn't think I'd need it. Of course, NOW, I do :) The ones he sold didn't have writing on them. Jay From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 9 18:42:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 16:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <20050709232803.42977.qmail@web40913.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, steven stengel wrote: > Did anyone find out if that really was an Apple 1 on ebay? I put in a message to the buyer to inform me when he gets it but I never got a reply. I can assume it has either already arrived or will be arriving at the buyer's locale soon, so I'll ping him in a day or two to see if he'll respond. hehe. moron.... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From uban at ubanproductions.com Sat Jul 9 18:56:15 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 18:56:15 -0500 Subject: DEC 11/45 build In-Reply-To: <001801c584df$8f02b560$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050709185508.02372800@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 06:40 PM 7/9/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Tony wrote... >>IIRC the first cabinet -- the one coantining hte CPU, should have a top >>panel with 'Digital PDP11' on it. All other racks have one that is the >>same colours, but with no writing on it. >Yup, a listmember sold one or two on ebay a few weeks ago, I didn't bother >cause I didn't think I'd need it. Of course, NOW, I do :) The ones he sold >didn't have writing on them. I think that I have a spare one (without writing) that you may have if you like, and if you intend to keep your machine vs. sell it on eBay... --tom From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jul 9 19:19:20 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 19:19:20 -0500 Subject: IBM Punch Cards Message-ID: <010601c584e5$067b5390$1f406b43@66067007> Well pulling out my Hero-Jr robot for some photos I noticed the two card sample booklets I go a few weeks ago. There seems to be over 300 different card stock samples in the two salesman booklets. One is called "general Purpose Card Sample IBM Data Processing Cards" form # 570-0275 9-67 and the other is "IBM Standard stock card formats" form # 570-0440 from around 1970. I had no idea of all the many card formats IBM had. From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sat Jul 9 19:23:23 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:23:23 +0100 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <42D042A6.3010509@srv.net> References: <42D042A6.3010509@srv.net> Message-ID: On 7/9/05, Kevin Handy wrote: > Magenta? Shouldn't that be violet. It's always been violet wherever I've seen/been taught it. > Bad Beer Rots Our Young Guts, But Vodka Goes Well > Black Boys Rape Our Young Girls, But Violet Goes Willingly " " " But Virgins Go Without From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sat Jul 9 21:22:49 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 22:22:49 -0400 Subject: IBM Punch Cards In-Reply-To: <010601c584e5$067b5390$1f406b43@66067007> References: <010601c584e5$067b5390$1f406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050709222202.027ded60@pop-server> At 08:19 PM 7/9/2005, you wrote: >Well pulling out my Hero-Jr robot for some photos I noticed the two >card sample booklets I go a few weeks ago. There seems to be over >300 different card stock samples in the two salesman booklets. One >is called "general Purpose Card Sample IBM Data Processing Cards" >form # 570-0275 9-67 and the other is "IBM Standard stock card >formats" form # 570-0440 from around 1970. I had no idea of all the >many card formats IBM had. The standard cards that we used were 5081 cards. We later used the smaller cards in System 3 etc. From hachti at hachti.de Sat Jul 9 22:13:55 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 05:13:55 +0200 Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710000000.02d5cb10@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710000000.02d5cb10@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <42D09273.90809@hachti.de> Hi Stefan, > Can anyone give me some more information about a Teleprint 390 ? Teleprint 390 is an original Teletype ASR 33 in another cover. That's all. There is NO (!!) other difference. The Teleprint cover is made of metal and has a light. That makes the machine more comfortable and more quiet. > I have one now and I think its pretty cool, works just fine but it would > be nice to know some background information. See above. You don't need any more info. Or do you need service manuals for the cover??? > Anyone by any chance have any docs they would like to part with ? Look out for ASR33 manuals. They're not really rare. Best regards, Philipp :-) From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jul 9 22:17:39 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 23:17:39 -0400 Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? References: Message-ID: <003f01c584fd$f6fe2410$5b7da418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:42 PM Subject: Re: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, steven stengel wrote: > > > Did anyone find out if that really was an Apple 1 on ebay? > > I put in a message to the buyer to inform me when he gets it but I never > got a reply. I can assume it has either already arrived or will be > arriving at the buyer's locale soon, so I'll ping him in a day or two to > see if he'll respond. > > hehe. moron.... > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival You know the guy might be a member of this list, so watch the name calling. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Jul 9 22:47:19 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 23:47:19 -0400 Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <003f01c584fd$f6fe2410$5b7da418@game> References: <003f01c584fd$f6fe2410$5b7da418@game> Message-ID: <42D09A47.10007@atarimuseum.com> If the person is a member of the list, they should've known better and NOT have bid. Teo Zenios wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:42 PM >Subject: Re: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? > > > > >>On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, steven stengel wrote: >> >> >> >>>Did anyone find out if that really was an Apple 1 on ebay? >>> >>> >>I put in a message to the buyer to inform me when he gets it but I never >>got a reply. I can assume it has either already arrived or will be >>arriving at the buyer's locale soon, so I'll ping him in a day or two to >>see if he'll respond. >> >>hehe. moron.... >> >>-- >> >>Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >> >> >Festival > >You know the guy might be a member of this list, so watch the name calling. > > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/44 - Release Date: 7/8/2005 From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jul 9 23:38:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 21:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <003f01c584fd$f6fe2410$5b7da418@game> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, steven stengel wrote: > > > > > Did anyone find out if that really was an Apple 1 on ebay? > > > > I put in a message to the buyer to inform me when he gets it but I never > > got a reply. I can assume it has either already arrived or will be > > arriving at the buyer's locale soon, so I'll ping him in a day or two to > > see if he'll respond. > > > > hehe. moron.... > > You know the guy might be a member of this list, so watch the name calling. Sorry, I prefer to be brutally honest here. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From marvin at rain.org Sun Jul 10 00:11:38 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 22:11:38 -0700 Subject: Discrete Component FlipFlop Message-ID: <42D0AE0A.303CFB40@rain.org> Our annual Bazaar was held today with all the leftover stuff now at my house ... briefly! In searching through the stuff this afternoon, I found several boards that I couldn't identify. One is labeled "FlipFlop" and the other "Inverter". I put up a picture of both sides of the FlipFlop at: http://www.rain.org/~marvin/flipflop.jpg While not obvious from the photo, it does look like the board has gold plated traces. Does anyone know what these things might have been a part of? From napier at waste.org Sun Jul 10 01:18:25 2005 From: napier at waste.org (John Napier) Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 23:18:25 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D0BDB1.3040407@waste.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Sorry, I prefer to be brutally honest here. But, I mean, just in terms of getting a response at all, it's harder for someone to speak up if they are already judged a "moron". I'd love to hear what they actually got, without calling them names if it turns out to be an apple //e or whatever. - Joe (we've all fucked up at least once. I bought a Bentley for 20K that I sold for 6K. e.g.) From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Sun Jul 10 02:38:21 2005 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 09:38:21 +0200 Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710000000.02d5cb10@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710000000.02d5cb10@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <42D0D06D.20709@gmx.net> If you want to see some pictures of a Teleprint 390 take a look at http://pdp8.de/frames/set_teletype.html or http://pdp8.de/en/frames/set_teletype.html Gerold Stefan wrote: > Hi, > > Can anyone give me some more information about a Teleprint 390 ? > I have one now and I think its pretty cool, works just fine but it > would be nice to know some background information. > > Anyone by any chance have any docs they would like to part with ? > > Thanks! > > Stefan. > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > From tomj at wps.com Sun Jul 10 03:28:08 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:28:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050710011909.G1403@fiche.wps.com> On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > Problem over here is that we're on a crowded island and the Government > place use of buildings for museum space pretty much at the bottom of the > ladder; I imagine that isn't so much of a problem in much of the US. Here in the US, there is essentially zero (0) chance of any public involvement in a museum that won't make a lot of money. A side-effect of the corporatization of everything. Even the Smithsonian is hosting a "creation science" exhibit with corporate sponsorship. (the current euphemism is 'intelligent design', similar to the use of the phrase 'depleted uranium'.) Public funding for the arts has been reduced to a practical zero by right-wing corporate goons, sicko christian loonies, and the dwindling resources that remain go to fewer and fewer recipients. But I digress. Any group seriously starting a museum will know that longevity is the key, and that serious donors and lenders of goods know it, and they know they know it, so a new, legitimate museum startup would likely forefront their stability -- if they had any -- in outreach efforts. The implication is, if they don't, they aren't. From tomj at wps.com Sun Jul 10 03:32:11 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 01:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intercept (6100) PDP-8 compatibility? In-Reply-To: <0IJB00HY45Q6BBK6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IJB00HY45Q6BBK6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050710012825.T1403@fiche.wps.com> >> What peripgherals and OS software is available for, or runs on, >> the Intercept? (Not the Jr board, the rack-mount job). >> >> I'm thinking it might make a comfortably modern old machine... On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Allison wrote: > You can run most base PDP-8 software. The small difference is the > console IOTs are differently assigned but easily fixed in the code. > Its the side effect of their IO devices. Cool! So in what way is it electrically I/O compatible? Did the Intercept have it's own peripherals (disk, tape, etc)? Or can it connect to some DEC buss? All I'm thinking of is a small disk (<= 10 MB), serial stuff (paper tape, tty) and enough memory to run really old OS stuff. At this point I'm not very serious, certianly not acquisitive yet. Just stockpiling ideas. From cc at corti-net.de Sun Jul 10 04:11:57 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:11:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: IBM card punch Message-ID: Hi everyone, I am still looking for information about an IBM card punch which I thought was some variant of an IBM 029. I've found out that this must be an "IBM 545 input output card punch". So, has anyone any information about this punch? (Pictures are on http://computermuseum-stuttgart.de/dev/tmp/ibm029.html) Christian From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Jul 10 05:36:48 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:36:48 +0100 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <001101c584b8$758f1f50$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200507091633.j69GXU3R083199@dewey.classiccmp.org> <3959FB42-C465-4A08-9CA6-9EBF6DAD5254@comcast.net> <001101c584b8$758f1f50$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <42D0FA40.5050403@gjcp.net> Nico de Jong wrote: > From: "CRC" > >>>Yes. Just follow the normal colour code. You know : >>> >>>0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >>>Better Buy Resistor Or Your Grid Bias May Go West >>>L R E R E R L A R H >>>A O D A L E U G E I >>>C W N L E E E Y T >>>K N G O N N E >>> E W T >>> A >> >>Egads! One of the most sanitized versions of the mnemonic I have heard. > > > Might one ask for an unsanitzed version ? If this is against "company > rules", you might want to mail them directly :-) > > Nico > > 0 Botty 1 Burpers 2 Recently 3 Offended 4 Your 5 Grandmother 6 By 7 Violently 8 Guffing 9 While G Granny S Served P Pudding G, S, and P are, of course, Gold == 5%, Silver == 10% and Plain == unspecified tolerance Gordon From James at jdfogg.com Sun Jul 10 06:09:45 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 07:09:45 -0400 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BD4@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > Might one ask for an unsanitzed version ? If this is > against "company > > rules", you might want to mail them directly :-) I know it as... (value) Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly (tolerance) Get Some Now ---- There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sun Jul 10 07:55:50 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:55:50 +0200 Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: <42D0D06D.20709@gmx.net> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710000000.02d5cb10@pop.xs4all.nl> <42D0D06D.20709@gmx.net> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710145436.02dde5d0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Thanks Gerold, know the site. But than again, I have one myself so ;-) and mine is a real Teleprint 390 hehe Well that one is too but mine also says Teleprint 390 where the one on the pictures says Data Plan But never mind At 09:38 10-7-2005, you wrote: >If you want to see some pictures of a Teleprint 390 take a look at > >http://pdp8.de/frames/set_teletype.html >or >http://pdp8.de/en/frames/set_teletype.html > >Gerold > > > >Stefan wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>Can anyone give me some more information about a Teleprint 390 ? >>I have one now and I think its pretty cool, works just fine but it >>would be nice to know some background information. >> >>Anyone by any chance have any docs they would like to part with ? >> >>Thanks! >> >>Stefan. >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------- >>http://www.oldcomputercollection.com >> ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Jul 10 08:05:46 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 09:05:46 -0400 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") References: <42CE0F76.1030703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <000501c58550$18820820$0100a8c0@screamer> Yes, all the DecTapes and Linctapes belong to Jay. I have a pair of TK-50's here with your name on them, I need to get those sent out to you.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 1:30 AM Subject: Re: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") > Also, use the MOS memory from the 11/34 to boot. > > -- > > Doesn't this require a DD11 backplane with Modified Unibus Device (MUD) > slots? > > > === > > > Al K. 'borrowed' > several tapes that had something of interest when he picked up the > MIT CADR as well. > > -- > > They were finally read last year when I got a TC11 working again, > along with some that I 'borrowed' from Jay on the same trip. > > Should all of them be sent to Jay? > From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Jul 10 08:14:36 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 09:14:36 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line References: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer><1120823117.17516.17.camel@weka.localdomain> <008501c583ca$6cbfaaa0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <002701c58551$52b7a760$0100a8c0@screamer> I'm using a Casio Exilim EX-Z50, and I highly recommend it! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 10:36 AM Subject: Re: HP 1000 System photos on-line > VERY nice setup Bob!! > > I really should get some pictures of my HP bays online too, it'd be a good > contrast to Bob's setup. His seems to have more of a test & measurement > bent, while mine is more of a general computing bent. However, to do that, > I'd have to dump the digital camera of mine that has started taking icky > pictures and buy a new one :) > > Jay > From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Jul 10 08:15:31 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 09:15:31 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 System photos on-line References: <008e01c58355$c8504610$0100a8c0@screamer> <009001c583ca$b7813d60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <002d01c58551$773e8b80$0100a8c0@screamer> Too bad they did not think about it that way as VCF East. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 10:38 AM Subject: Re: HP 1000 System photos on-line > To me, what is especially outstanding about Bob's setup is the IDE hard > drive interface, and the homebrew paper tape reader & punch to/from > EEprom. Talk about an incredible application of new technology to old > technology!!! Outstanding!! > > Jay > From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Jul 10 08:37:04 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 09:37:04 -0400 Subject: IBM Punch Cards (Free Samples) In-Reply-To: <200507100757.j6A7vYoG090579@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200507101337.j6ADaxHI008457@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> This guy: http://www.acme.com/jef/punch_cards/ Has a site devoted to old IBM 80-column punch cards, and if you send him an empty pre-addressed envelope with postage (about 3 ounces, I think), he will send you free samples, a stack about one-quarter inch thick (a couple dozen cards). From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Jul 10 09:35:29 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 07:35:29 -0700 Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <20050710011909.G1403@fiche.wps.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050710011909.G1403@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <200507100735.30041.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 10 July 2005 01:28, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: --snip-- > Public funding for the arts has been reduced to a practical zero > by right-wing corporate goons, sicko christian loonies, and the > dwindling resources that remain go to fewer and fewer recipients. There are some of us "corporate goons, sicko christian loonies" who do a lot of volunteer work for and have donated generously to the Computer History Museum (the largest museum of it's kind in the world). We (speaking as a charter member) have a huge collection of artifacts and have restored an IBM 1620 and PDP-1 to working condition and are in the process of restoring an IBM 1401 (more to follow). These are projects well beyond the scope of most collectors. It might be wise to revisit your thoughts before you lash out with your broad, baseless, unfounded assumptions. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jul 10 10:00:09 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:00:09 -0400 Subject: Public funding for the "Arts" Re: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <20050710011909.G1403@fiche.wps.com> References: <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050710110009.00a1b890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:28 AM 7/10/05 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: > >Public funding for the arts has been reduced to a practical zero >by right-wing corporate goons, sicko christian loonies, and the >dwindling resources that remain go to fewer and fewer recipients. I couldn't disagree more! It wasn't the right-wing goons, christian loonies, etc that killed public funding for the arts, it was the sicko, perverted, frequently pornographic and always ugly work of the "artists" that killed public funding. The public was fed up with no-talent artists feeding at the public trough! Remember the photograph of the crucifix in a glass of urine? How much talent did that take? Yet that "artist" was paid several hundred thousand dollars every year to produce "art". I for one hope we've seen the last of "art" produced for the public! There are thousands of good artists in this country but public funding was nothing but a haven for no-talent punks that wanted to make a "statement" and screamed "freedom of the arts" everytime they offended the same public that they expected to fund them! Joe From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jul 10 10:30:20 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:30:20 -0500 Subject: Public funding for the "Arts" Re: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050710110009.00a1b890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050710110009.00a1b890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42D13F0C.3070901@mdrconsult.com> Joe R. wrote: > At 01:28 AM 7/10/05 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: No good can come of this. $ cat $thread > /dev/null 2>&1 Doc From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 10 11:02:08 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:02:08 +0000 Subject: Public funding for the "Arts" Re: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050710110009.00a1b890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050710110009.00a1b890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1121011328.20260.51.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-07-10 at 11:00 -0400, Joe R. wrote: > At 01:28 AM 7/10/05 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: > > > >Public funding for the arts has been reduced to a practical zero > >by right-wing corporate goons, sicko christian loonies, and the > >dwindling resources that remain go to fewer and fewer recipients. > > I couldn't disagree more! It wasn't the right-wing goons, christian > loonies, etc that killed public funding for the arts, it was the sicko, > perverted, frequently pornographic and always ugly work of the "artists" > that killed public funding. Neither IMHO. Modern Governments don't appear to care about the population (did they ever?) - they only care about getting re-elected and being seen to be better than other Governments of the world. That tends to lead to public-funded entertainment in any form taking a back seat to things that will result in more profit. Over here it seems to be getting worse fast, too. Plus we've now got the Olympics in 2012 which means public funding for anything else is likely to get cut even further. Self-sufficiency or private sponsorship are the only way forward for most projects - but of course private sponsorship is almost impossible to get for any kind of start-up operation; businesses are only going to throw money at something that's already achieving a certain amount. cheers Jules From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jul 10 11:00:58 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:00:58 -0500 Subject: IBM Punch Cards (Free Samples) References: <200507101337.j6ADaxHI008457@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <007601c58568$90e7a3c0$16406b43@66067007> Thanks for the tip, very cool site. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Watzman" To: Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 8:37 AM Subject: Re: IBM Punch Cards (Free Samples) > This guy: > > http://www.acme.com/jef/punch_cards/ > > Has a site devoted to old IBM 80-column punch cards, and if you send him > an > empty pre-addressed envelope with postage (about 3 ounces, I think), he > will > send you free samples, a stack about one-quarter inch thick (a couple > dozen > cards). > > > > From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jul 10 11:18:58 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:18:58 -0500 Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <003f01c584fd$f6fe2410$5b7da418@game> References: <003f01c584fd$f6fe2410$5b7da418@game> Message-ID: <20050710111858.1cc188b2.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 9 Jul 2005 23:17:39 -0400 "Teo Zenios" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 7:42 PM > Subject: Re: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? > > > > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, steven stengel wrote: > > > > > Did anyone find out if that really was an Apple 1 on ebay? > > > > I put in a message to the buyer to inform me when he gets it but I > > never got a reply. I can assume it has either already arrived or > > will be arriving at the buyer's locale soon, so I'll ping him in a > > day or two to see if he'll respond. > > > > hehe. moron.... > > > > -- > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > > Computer > Festival > > You know the guy might be a member of this list, so watch the name > calling. > > Even if s/he isn't a member of the list, that kind of tone repels people. We need to strive not to come off as a superior elite. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jul 10 11:24:25 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:24:25 -0500 Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <42D0BDB1.3040407@waste.org> References: <42D0BDB1.3040407@waste.org> Message-ID: <20050710112425.11d4160b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 23:18:25 -0700 John Napier wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > Sorry, I prefer to be brutally honest here. > > But, I mean, just in terms of getting a response at all, it's harder > for someone to speak up if they are already judged a "moron". > I'd love to hear what they actually got, without calling them names > if it turns out to be an apple //e or whatever. > > - Joe > > (we've all fucked up at least once. I bought a Bentley for 20K that I > sold for 6K. e.g.) > It might be a big board, or somesuch equally interesting early system somebody put together out of a magazine article 'in their own style.' It's likely not a 'real' Apple I. But for those of us interested in early tech, the datecodes on the chip and the novelty of whatever it is and however it is constructed matters more than being the first product from a rather popular hardware brand. I'm sorry, but when 'scarcity' becomes the deciding factor in how 'interesting' a piece of equipment is to the community, this hobby is close to becoming another room full of stamp collectors, or worse, Star Wars 'collectable' fanatics. From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Jul 10 11:28:39 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:28:39 -0500 Subject: Computer Museum References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <00a401c5856c$770c8ac0$16406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:27 PM Subject: Re: Computer Museum > > Personally I wouldn't give anything to anyone who didn't have space for > it already though - they should be able to amass enough of a collection > first to know if it's viable, get some display space, and then put out > an appeal to enthusiasts. > > cheers > > Jules > This helps me understand why there is very little reponse to my JUST A BUCK campaign asking for $1 from each person that visit's the museum website. There seems to be very little(if any) help for start-ups in the museum sector. I have seem two computer museum starts-ups get large funding help but the people starting them were already rich and their friends gave big bucks ( 1 million or more). > From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jul 10 11:39:44 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 11:39:44 -0500 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BD4@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045BD4@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <20050710113944.5f48ddeb.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 07:09:45 -0400 "James Fogg" wrote: > > > Might one ask for an unsanitzed version ? If this is > > against "company > > > rules", you might want to mail them directly :-) > > > > I know it as... > > (value) > Bad > Boys > R*** > Our > Young > Girls > But > Violet > Gives > Willingly > > (tolerance) > Get > Some > Now > In the Boy Scout merit badge pamphlet it was: Better Be Right Or Your Great Big Venture Goes Wrong > ---- > There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand > binary and those who don't. > From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jul 10 11:47:13 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:47:13 -0400 Subject: Computer Museum References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <00a401c5856c$770c8ac0$16406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <004301c5856f$0ed96740$5b7da418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keys" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 12:28 PM Subject: Re: Computer Museum > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jules Richardson" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:27 PM > Subject: Re: Computer Museum > > > > > Personally I wouldn't give anything to anyone who didn't have space for > > it already though - they should be able to amass enough of a collection > > first to know if it's viable, get some display space, and then put out > > an appeal to enthusiasts. > > > > cheers > > > > Jules > > > This helps me understand why there is very little reponse to my JUST A BUCK > campaign asking for $1 from each person that visit's the museum website. > There seems to be very little(if any) help for start-ups in the museum > sector. I have seem two computer museum starts-ups get large funding help > but the people starting them were already rich and their friends gave big > bucks ( 1 million or more). > > > People have been burned too many times by others collecting for a cause that does not exist. If somebody asked you to contribute money to a museum that did not have a large collection, a building, and some visiting hours already you might be thinking this guy just wants you to help pay for his collecting needs and the machines (if that is even where the money goes) are never seen by anybody. For most people a cheap to maintain website is preferable to a real computer museum showing static unpowered machines anyway. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sun Jul 10 12:29:49 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:29:49 +0200 Subject: Apple cable ? Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710192944.02decc90@pop.xs4all.nl> Can anyone tell me what kind of Apple cables these are ? http://www.oldcomputercollection.com/applekabel.jpg Thanks! Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 10 12:20:38 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <42D0BDB1.3040407@waste.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, John Napier wrote: > But, I mean, just in terms of getting a response at all, it's harder > for someone to speak up if they are already judged a "moron". > I'd love to hear what they actually got, without calling them names > if it turns out to be an apple //e or whatever. > > - Joe > > (we've all fucked up at least once. I bought a Bentley for 20K that I > sold for 6K. e.g.) That's not a fuck-up, that's reality. You made the choice knowing everything. There's no analogy whatsoever to what happened here, which is someone buying a wooden box with a keyboard on speculation (driven by the seller's fraud through omission) that it was something else. If it does end up being an Apple-1 I will eat my first born. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jul 10 12:29:19 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 12:29:19 -0500 Subject: Apple cable ? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710192944.02decc90@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710192944.02decc90@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050710122706.0574d040@mail> At 12:29 PM 7/10/2005, Stefan wrote: >Can anyone tell me what kind of Apple cables these are ? >http://www.oldcomputercollection.com/applekabel.jpg LocalTalk as used on the original Mac. Early networking, using the serial port: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LocalTalk - John From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 10 12:31:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <20050710111858.1cc188b2.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, steven stengel wrote: > > > > > > > Did anyone find out if that really was an Apple 1 on ebay? > > > > > > I put in a message to the buyer to inform me when he gets it but I > > > never got a reply. I can assume it has either already arrived or > > > will be arriving at the buyer's locale soon, so I'll ping him in a > > > day or two to see if he'll respond. > > > > > > hehe. moron.... > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > > > Computer > > Festival > > > > You know the guy might be a member of this list, so watch the name > > calling. > > > > > Even if s/he isn't a member of the list, that kind of tone repels > people. We need to strive not to come off as a superior elite. I'm a "superior elite" because I pointed out what an idiot someone is for doing something superiorly idiotic? How does that work? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From g-wright at worldnet.att.net Sun Jul 10 09:45:03 2005 From: g-wright at worldnet.att.net (g-wright) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:45:03 -0400 Subject: WAS .... PDP-11/23+ and rx-02 drives, need help!!! Message-ID: <42D1346F.9010803@worldnet.att.net> Thanks to everyone that took the time to respond. As the story goes Henk (My 11/60 buddy) was right on the money with the the board location. I started out there a Year ago but in time made the mistake of not following my notes and installing the board below the disk controller. The other problems where, none of the Blank "DEC labeled" disks will Format even now, but will work on a CPM machine. The drive looks for something very quickly and errors even in single density mode. I did get some new "DEC labeled" disks to work now. The other issues where that 2 out of the 3 sets of RK-02's where Bad and only 1 of my RT11 disks will boot. So I had a large hole to dig myself out of. All are working now. I just went through 10 sets of RK-02s and only got 4 going. Most have bad boards. It seems that the lower board is the worst with 5 bad. Most of these came from a Damp location. Someone else had them stored in a barn. I have tested these by swapping the boards into the working machines and using the boards from the working machines in the test machines. On the Hardware side, after cleaning and lubing all seemed to be OK. At least they could boot from either drive. Anyone had any luck repairing the boards ???? What effect does the moisture have on the boards ???? They where not outside just damp air. I have cleaned them with board cleaner and checked the switches for operation. Some of the IC pins are getting rusty. Are the IC's sealed very well or can moisture get in the chips Just think, I still have TE-11/16's and RL-01/02's to get going. Before MY 11/60's. Thanks again Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc. ....>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, I'm trying to get one of my 11-23's going and finally got around to setting up a TU58 emulator. got it to boot RT-11 and now trying to get a RX-02 working. I have 3 controllers and 3 sets of RX-02's. All do the same thing. The just seems to not be able to find track 1 or Home or ??? The heads just keep going from home to maybe the first tack and back. The heads do load and the system tries quit a few times then pauses and tries again. It then errors on drive failure or read error directory not found, size function failed depends what I ask it to do. I have tried all of the boards and drives. all or them seem to do the same thing. I do not know how good the drives are but can't believe there all bad. I have recheck the switches in the RX-02 and the Jumpers on the cards. Cleaned the drives. tried different disks. Is there some kind of compatibility issue that i do not know about. Or do I have 6 dead drives. The system is a Micro PDP 11, 8 slot Rack mount, with 1 M8189 1123+ 1 M8067 KB 256k Memory 1 M8639 YA MFM rx50 controller 1 M8029 RX-02 controller in this order. Everything else seems to work. I added the floppy card but the rest original. Thanks, Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc. ------------------------------ M From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Jul 10 13:12:12 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:12:12 -0500 Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: References: <20050710111858.1cc188b2.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050710131212.3fe9944a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 10:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > > > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, steven stengel wrote: > > > > > > > > > Did anyone find out if that really was an Apple 1 on ebay? > > > > > > > > I put in a message to the buyer to inform me when he gets it but > > > > I never got a reply. I can assume it has either already arrived > > > > or will be arriving at the buyer's locale soon, so I'll ping him > > > > in a day or two to see if he'll respond. > > > > > > > > hehe. moron.... > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > > > > Computer > > > Festival > > > > > > You know the guy might be a member of this list, so watch the name > > > calling. > > > > > > > > Even if s/he isn't a member of the list, that kind of tone repels > > people. We need to strive not to come off as a superior elite. > > I'm a "superior elite" because I pointed out what an idiot someone is > for doing something superiorly idiotic? How does that work? > You spoke of that individual in the manner in which one who is in a clique speaks to other members about outsiders. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jul 10 13:15:49 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:15:49 -0400 Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? References: Message-ID: <008201c5857b$66e4f600$5b7da418@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 1:31 PM Subject: Re: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? > On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > > > On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, steven stengel wrote: > > > > > > > > > Did anyone find out if that really was an Apple 1 on ebay? > > > > > > > > I put in a message to the buyer to inform me when he gets it but I > > > > never got a reply. I can assume it has either already arrived or > > > > will be arriving at the buyer's locale soon, so I'll ping him in a > > > > day or two to see if he'll respond. > > > > > > > > hehe. moron.... > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > > > > Computer > > > Festival > > > > > > You know the guy might be a member of this list, so watch the name > > > calling. > > > > > > > > Even if s/he isn't a member of the list, that kind of tone repels > > people. We need to strive not to come off as a superior elite. > > I'm a "superior elite" because I pointed out what an idiot someone is for > doing something superiorly idiotic? How does that work? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- It is in the attitude and presentation. Lots of people have great knowledge of a specific small niche and general knowledge of everything else. When you start calling people names and making fun of them because they do not have the vast knowledge of some particular niche that you do you come off as elitist and a jerk. How would you feel if you went to the doctor because you think you had some disease and the doctor called his other medical buddies into the room and started calling you an idiot because you misdiagnosed the "simple" condition and they all pointed and laughed at you? There are many people in this world not thick skinned as I am and apparently you are Sellam. If you make comments on a public list ridiculing somebody for their lack of knowledge many people will simply stay lurkers and never post anything meaningful to this list (or simple quit). Some of those people might even run into a part you actually need but will never know about. In many areas you can accomplish more with good people skills then you can with an attitude and vast amounts of knowledge and ability. Why scare people away from the hobby when you could bring more people in with the knowledge you accumulate? Of course if you really are an elitist then you could care less about anybody that does not posses the "valuable" knowledge you have, and I am wasting my time typing this up. The person in question must be good at something marketable to be able to afford the things he buys on ebay (unless of course he has hit the lottery or rich deceased relatives). From news at computercollector.com Sun Jul 10 13:42:40 2005 From: news at computercollector.com ('Computer Collector Newsletter') Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 14:42:40 -0400 Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <00a401c5856c$770c8ac0$16406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <200507101851.j6AIpPhn024463@keith.ezwind.net> Out here in NJ, we've been extremely lucky with the new-ish local club, MARCH (Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists). There's a new science musuem being built at a former army base, they already have official non-profit status, and they even inherited an existing computer collection. They found our group, and we found them, via mutual contacts at the Trenton Computer Festival. Turns out they wanted to find a group of people who could manage their collection. So basically they are "giving" us a museum to run. A few of us already toured the base and they've got dozens and dozens of acres of land and empty buildings. At one point they took us to a building called "the library" (the base was also a college at one point) and they said, oh, that building's yours! We also learned that part of the collection we're getting includes an actual ENIAC card. Cool! Our club isn't listed yet, but the facility itself is at infoage.org (our club is temporarily at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ ) ... I guess the moral of all this is that it's helpful to make computer museums part of existing, related facilities, rather than trying to start from scratch. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Keys Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 12:29 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Computer Museum ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:27 PM Subject: Re: Computer Museum > > Personally I wouldn't give anything to anyone who didn't have space > for it already though - they should be able to amass enough of a > collection first to know if it's viable, get some display space, and > then put out an appeal to enthusiasts. > > cheers > > Jules > This helps me understand why there is very little reponse to my JUST A BUCK campaign asking for $1 from each person that visit's the museum website. There seems to be very little(if any) help for start-ups in the museum sector. I have seem two computer museum starts-ups get large funding help but the people starting them were already rich and their friends gave big bucks ( 1 million or more). > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 10 14:18:15 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:18:15 -0600 Subject: Discrete Component FlipFlop In-Reply-To: <42D0AE0A.303CFB40@rain.org> References: <42D0AE0A.303CFB40@rain.org> Message-ID: <42D17477.7000700@jetnet.ab.ca> Marvin Johnston wrote: > Our annual Bazaar was held today with all the leftover stuff now at my > house ... briefly! In searching through the stuff this afternoon, I > found several boards that I couldn't identify. One is labeled "FlipFlop" > and the other "Inverter". I put up a picture of both sides of the > FlipFlop at: > It will only take another 2513 more years to collect the whole computer. Off Hand the logo on the Flip/flop is you best bet to find who made it. That is not dec and IBM. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 10 14:24:08 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:24:08 -0600 Subject: Public funding for the "Arts" Re: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <42D13F0C.3070901@mdrconsult.com> References: <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050710110009.00a1b890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <42D13F0C.3070901@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <42D175D8.1020508@jetnet.ab.ca> Doc Shipley wrote: > Joe R. wrote: > $ cat $thread > /dev/null 2>&1 > Bit bucket full -- redirecting output to console. Computers are not art but science ... History however is needed in all forms however. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 10 14:59:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:59:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: WAS .... PDP-11/23+ and rx-02 drives, need help!!! In-Reply-To: <42D1346F.9010803@worldnet.att.net> from "g-wright" at Jul 10, 5 10:45:03 am Message-ID: > I just went through 10 sets of RK-02s and only got 4 going. Most > have bad boards. It seems that the lower board is the worst with > 5 bad. Most of these came from a Damp location. Someone else had > them stored in a barn. I have tested these by swapping the boards > into the working machines and using the boards from the working > machines in the test machines. On the Hardware side, after cleaning I will refrain from flaming _again_ about that... > and lubing all seemed to be OK. At least they could boot from either > drive. > > Anyone had any luck repairing the boards ???? Sure. They're not particulalrly complicated. The lower board contains several different functions. The read/write chain, index and track 0 sensor circuits, the head load solenoid driver, the stepper driver, etc. The first job is to determine which function(s) has failed. Then you know which bit of circuitry to dive into. Most of those sections are simple. The upper board is more difficult to debug. It's actually a processor built using a couple of 2901 ALU slices and 3 2909 (or is it 2911) sequencer slices. A listing of the firmware is useful (DEC, AFAIK, never supplied this, I had to disassemble and hand-comment it from one of my drives), as is a logic anaylser. Then you can check to see (a) what routine is being executed and (b) if the sequence of instructions is at all sane. > > What effect does the moisture have on the boards ???? They where not > outside just damp air. > > I have cleaned them with board cleaner and checked the switches for > operation. Some of the IC pins are getting rusty. Are the IC's sealed > very well or can moisture get in the chips In theory they're hermetically sealed, in practice it is possible for contaminants to get into plastic packages (particularly). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 10 14:34:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:34:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: <42D09273.90809@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Jul 10, 5 05:13:55 am Message-ID: > > Hi Stefan, > > > Can anyone give me some more information about a Teleprint 390 ? > Teleprint 390 is an original Teletype ASR 33 in another cover. That's > all. There is NO (!!) other difference. The Teleprint cover is made of Is the 'call control unit' -- the electronics chassis on the right hand side -- the same? I have a Data Dynamics machine (and I think it's a model 390) where the mechaical bits are normal Teletype ones, but the call control unit is very different. It's built on a couple of PCBs (!) and can handle both RS232 and current loop interfaces. > metal and has a light. That makes the machine more comfortable and more > quiet. > > > I have one now and I think its pretty cool, works just fine but it would > > be nice to know some background information. > See above. You don't need any more info. Or do you need service manuals > for the cover??? Believe it or not, the Teletype manuals for the Model 33 do have cleaning and lubrication charts for the cover... -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 10 15:51:41 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:51:41 +0000 Subject: Talking of the 380Z... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1121028701.20260.65.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-07-08 at 23:51 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Actually, I'd not heard of the blue-cased machines before. Maybe they're > > in standard off-the-shelf instrument cases rather than with RML logos, > > panel cut-outs etc.? > > The black case is a standard (Vero iIRC) case. It was designed to take a > 19" rack chassis, but RML just mounted the PSU and card guides inside. > OK, the cutouts and logos are custom, but that's all. Yep, that's certainly what it looks like anyway... > > Oh, Xebec board in my fileserver is an S1410, for which I have a manual > > and a couple of spare boards, so I can do some messing around with a PC > > parallel port driver. There's even a sample Z80 interface schematic in > > the back of the manual that's probably adaptable... > > > > Still concerned about timings though as some of the timing diagrams do > > have upper constraints on signal changes (a lot of them only specify a > > minimum limit). Time will tell if the PC's port is quick enough... > > I think (wihtout trying it), you can go as slowly as you like. Having had a better read of the timing diagrams, that looks to be the case. The critical one is the time between the target asserting REQ and the controller asserting ACK - but in all 'simple' SASI/SCSI interfaces that bit's done in hardware via a flipflop, so time taken for the software-driven part doesn't actually matter. Time to throw a few chips together and have a play around I think... cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 10 15:57:53 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:57:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <20050710131212.3fe9944a.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050710111858.1cc188b2.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050710131212.3fe9944a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050710135051.H50937@shell.lmi.net> > I'm a "superior elite" because I pointed out what an idiot someone is > for doing something superiorly idiotic? How does that work? Hmmmm. Howzbout: find the two highest bidders from that auction; pick cardboard boxes at random from the warehouse, . . . "it has cards and wires in it, and SOMEWHERE there might be an Apple 1, or Altair prototypes,...." From hachti at hachti.de Sun Jul 10 16:03:13 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:03:13 +0200 Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D18D11.5030004@hachti.de> Hi, > Is the 'call control unit' -- the electronics chassis on the right hand > side -- the same? On *my* 390 there is a slightly different "call control unit". But I have several 33s and nearly each has a different ccu. Normally you don't have to worry about that if you have a current loop device in working condition. There are also a lot of different wiring options for the machine..... > where the mechaical bits are normal Teletype ones, but the > call control unit is very different. It's built on a couple of PCBs (!) > and can handle both RS232 and current loop interfaces. Hey, that's cool. PCBs are normal in all CCUs. It will be hard to find schmematics for that. > Believe it or not, the Teletype manuals for the Model 33 do have cleaning > and lubrication charts for the cover... :-) ... but there's no information about glueing together broken pieces of grey plastic.... :-) -- Philipp From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Jul 10 17:02:33 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 18:02:33 -0400 Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: <42D18D11.5030004@hachti.de> References: <42D18D11.5030004@hachti.de> Message-ID: <42D19AF9.nail46A11G7CC@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > There are also a lot of different wiring options for the machine..... That's what has always baffled me. There's a magnet driver, for the printing mechanism. There's an open/close switch, for the keyboard. There are analogous things for the punch too. But... there are literally hundreds of contacts spread out between a dozen or so Molex connectors inside the machine. I realize that these handle every option under the sun, and probably a couple other suns that I've never seen too. But turning such a simple electomecahical machine into such a maze of plugs must've taken a couple of committees. Tim. From allain at panix.com Sun Jul 10 17:17:15 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 18:17:15 -0400 Subject: Computer Museum References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><20050707114802.M5021@localhost><1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050710011909.G1403@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <007e01c5859d$212a30e0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> re: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 1:28 AM (PDT) {Paraphrasing} Popular hobbyist support for the Classiccmp list can been reduced to practically zero by allowing extremist goons, and sicko loonies to comment freely. The dwindling contributorship that remains will lead to fewer and fewer interesting threads. John A. or ...has led to... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jul 10 17:35:24 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:35:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: <42D18D11.5030004@hachti.de> from "Philipp Hachtmann" at Jul 10, 5 11:03:13 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > > Is the 'call control unit' -- the electronics chassis on the right hand > > side -- the same? > On *my* 390 there is a slightly different "call control unit". But I > have several 33s and nearly each has a different ccu. Normally you don't There is one Teletype call control unit that was used in the version that had a built-in 20mA loop interface and no modem. This is the version that was supposed to be directly connected to the computer's interface, and it's the version most commonly found. > have to worry about that if you have a current loop device in working > condition. There are also a lot of different wiring options for the No, but it certainly matters if you have to repair it... > machine..... > > > where the mechaical bits are normal Teletype ones, but the > > call control unit is very different. It's built on a couple of PCBs (!) > > and can handle both RS232 and current loop interfaces. > Hey, that's cool. PCBs are normal in all CCUs. The Teletype one I menitoned has one little PCB in the selector magnet driver (the reader PSU, also on a PCB, is not strictly part of the CCU, even). There's a lot of hard-wiring too. The Data Dynamics one, IIRC, has 3 PCBs in it. One carries all the Molex connectors at the back, which the mechanical parts plug into. The others contain the reader PSU, singalling PSU, selector magnet driver, etc. Almost no components no on the PSU. > It will be hard to find schmematics for that. Yes, but probably not too hard to trace out by hand if need be. > > > Believe it or not, the Teletype manuals for the Model 33 do have cleaning > > and lubrication charts for the cover... > :-) > ... but there's no information about glueing together broken pieces of > grey plastic.... :-) The best way to do this IMHO is to put the bits together and run a brush dipped in dichloromethane along the cracks. This will disolve the plastic and weld the parts together. Now take some cotton fabric, put it over the repair on the inside of the case, and brush it over with the dichloromethane. When the plastic has softened, force the fabric into it. The result is a fairly strong repair... -tony From marvin at rain.org Sun Jul 10 18:08:17 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:08:17 -0700 Subject: Berkeley Softworks IRQ Manager Board Message-ID: <42D1AA61.6B20F647@rain.org> I found a couple of these in the dregs of the bazaar remains, and am curious what they do. Google showed they were used in the Apple IIe, but that is all I've been able to find. Anyone have more information about how they were used? Thanks! From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jul 10 20:30:32 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 20:30:32 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest Message-ID: <00cd01c585b8$213671a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> So, anyone else from the St. Louis area going to VCF Midwest? I'll likely be driving up friday, driving back sunday. Riders welcome. Jay From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 10 21:03:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <008201c5857b$66e4f600$5b7da418@game> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > It is in the attitude and presentation. Lots of people have great > knowledge of a specific small niche and general knowledge of everything > else. When you start calling people names and making fun of them because > they do not have the vast knowledge of some particular niche that you do > you come off as elitist and a jerk. How would you feel if you went to > the doctor because you think you had some disease and the doctor called > his other medical buddies into the room and started calling you an idiot > because you misdiagnosed the "simple" condition and they all pointed and > laughed at you? What the fuck are you talking about now? If I have to spell this out for you then you're as big an idiot as the guy you're trying to defend. > I am wasting my time typing this up. You sure did. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 10 21:07:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <20050710131212.3fe9944a.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > I'm a "superior elite" because I pointed out what an idiot someone is > > for doing something superiorly idiotic? How does that work? > > You spoke of that individual in the manner in which one who is in a > clique speaks to other members about outsiders. I'm wrong for I ridiculing someone for being a complete moron? Again, how does that work? Look, this is the last time I'll explain this: these guys (buyer and seller) are fucking idiots, and if by ridiculing them it means they will go away then I can't think of a better thing that could happen. I absolutely do not want people that stupid coming into my favorite pastime and screwing it up because they are incapable of smelling what was obviously a scam. Get it? Good. Shut up. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 10 21:10:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:10:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: <20050710135051.H50937@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I'm a "superior elite" because I pointed out what an idiot someone is > > for doing something superiorly idiotic? How does that work? > > Hmmmm. > Howzbout: find the two highest bidders from that auction; > pick cardboard boxes at random from the warehouse, . . . > "it has cards and wires in it, and SOMEWHERE there might be an Apple 1, > or Altair prototypes,...." That's really not a half bad idea. Is it legal to take advantage of stupid people? If so, it shouldn't be. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jul 10 21:14:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Berkeley Softworks IRQ Manager Board In-Reply-To: <42D1AA61.6B20F647@rain.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I found a couple of these in the dregs of the bazaar remains, and am > curious what they do. Google showed they were used in the Apple IIe, but > that is all I've been able to find. Anyone have more information about > how they were used? Thanks! These sound vaguely familiar. I am pretty sure they were used in conjunction with GEOS (a Berkeley Softworks product) on the Apple ][ to give it the IRQ support needed for that OS to run properly. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jul 10 21:24:09 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:24:09 -0500 Subject: Apple et. all Message-ID: <00eb01c585bf$9e819f70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> C'mon folks, let's all tone down the politics and rhetoric and attendant attitudes. Things have been going quite well, let's not get into this kind of diversion. Move along... nothing to see here... Jay From tomj at wps.com Sun Jul 10 21:26:20 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public funding for the "Arts" Re: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <42D175D8.1020508@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050710110009.00a1b890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <42D13F0C.3070901@mdrconsult.com> <42D175D8.1020508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050710192534.T1082@fiche.wps.com> On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, woodelf wrote: > Bit bucket full -- redirecting output to console. > Computers are not art but science ... History however > is needed in all forms however. We're talking about history, which is culture, not products. There mere fact that some arbitrarily old machine (say: LGP-30) would have to be contextualized in its 1950's context clearly shows that. Second, computers -- as products -- are not science. Science is not technology, and technology isn't science (the subsuming of science *into* technological production is another story). Computers are products, not made by 'scientists' but produced in factories by the lowest-skilled label it's possible to get away with. Third, most museums try to appeal to a broad swath of humanity, not just nerds. Computers exist in culture, for purposes of all kinds (which has clearly changed; from 40's hydrodynamics to 00's Grand Theft Auto -- a good museum will contextualize all this. I am fairly high nerd -- yet I care a lot about the culture in which this crap exists, who made them, why, ramifications of use, etc. It's art, and history, and historiography, with a bit of science and a tinier bit of technology. Nerds like us can get a doc set and pore over the schematics; most people will want more. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jul 10 21:33:04 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:33:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Berkeley Softworks IRQ Manager Board In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Jul 10, 5 07:14:49 pm" Message-ID: <200507110233.TAA18370@floodgap.com> > > I found a couple of these in the dregs of the bazaar remains, and am > > curious what they do. Google showed they were used in the Apple IIe, but > > that is all I've been able to find. Anyone have more information about > > how they were used? Thanks! > > These sound vaguely familiar. I am pretty sure they were used in > conjunction with GEOS (a Berkeley Softworks product) on the Apple ][ to > give it the IRQ support needed for that OS to run properly. Yup, that's exactly what they are for. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- /etc/motd: /earth is 98% full. please delete anyone you can. --------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 10 22:10:03 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 21:10:03 -0600 Subject: Public funding for the "Arts" Re: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <20050710192534.T1082@fiche.wps.com> References: <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050710110009.00a1b890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <42D13F0C.3070901@mdrconsult.com> <42D175D8.1020508@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050710192534.T1082@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <42D1E30B.5020900@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Jennings wrote: > On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, woodelf wrote: > Second, computers -- as products -- are not science. Science is > not technology, and technology isn't science (the subsuming of > science *into* technological production is another story). > Computers are products, not made by 'scientists' but produced in > factories by the lowest-skilled label it's possible to get away > with. That sounds just like the underware I just bought. Made in India,USA or some other third world country. Where is the made in Canada label? It is sad to say computer development is in the hands of bean counters. Now how about using nice slow organic plastic transitors and make vacuum tube speed computers. Now that would be 3rd world techology. The real advancement for the future is to recycle our envorment and that is not about making $$$$ sadly. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Jul 10 22:20:44 2005 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 23:20:44 EDT Subject: Berkeley Softworks IRQ Manager Board Message-ID: <8d.2abf1a80.30033f8c@aol.com> >>In a message dated 7/10/2005 10:22:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vcf at siconic.com >>writes: >>On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: >>> I found a couple of these in the dregs of the bazaar remains, and am >>> curious what they do. Google showed they were used in the Apple IIe, but >>> that is all I've been able to find. Anyone have more information about >>> how they were used? Thanks! >>These sound vaguely familiar. I am pretty sure they were used in >>conjunction with GEOS (a Berkeley Softworks product) on the Apple ][ to >>give it the IRQ support needed for that OS to run properly. Hmmm, now that sounds familiar to me. Is it a tiny little card? If so, it did indeed come with GEOS and you had to put it in the //e to get the mouse to work. The copy of GEOS I got at the time had a mouse included and had an option to get 3.5 disks which I did even though I only had 5.25 drives at the time. My copy of GEOS is around here somewhere and I got several other BS applications for it as well. From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 11 01:08:46 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:08:46 -0500 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? Message-ID: <42D20CEE.7080304@jbrain.com> This weekend, while picking up a large donation of Commodore equipment (~2000 pounds, the truck springs bottomed out :-), I also secured a 3B2/310. Alas, I'm not at all up on this type of machine. Google brought up some information, but I'd appreciate any personal anecdotes or information. Jim P.S. In other news, the CBM donation was well worth picking up. A prototype Commodore 65 was included. -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From bernd at kopriva.de Mon Jul 11 02:52:29 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:52:29 +0200 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <42D20CEE.7080304@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20050711063008.C627F39541@linux.local> Hi Jim, was there a "C 900" included ? .... ... i'm still looking for such a beast ! Ciao Bernd On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:08:46 -0500, Jim Brain wrote: >This weekend, while picking up a large donation of Commodore equipment >(~2000 pounds, the truck springs bottomed out :-), I also secured a >3B2/310. Alas, I'm not at all up on this type of machine. Google >brought up some information, but I'd appreciate any personal anecdotes >or information. > >Jim > >P.S. In other news, the CBM donation was well worth picking up. A >prototype Commodore 65 was included. > > >-- >Jim Brain, Brain Innovations >brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com >Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! > > > > Bernd Kopriva Phone: ++49-7195-179452 Weilerstr. 24 E-Mail: bernd at kopriva.de D-71397 Leutenbach Germany From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jul 11 04:29:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 02:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <42D20CEE.7080304@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, Jim Brain wrote: > P.S. In other news, the CBM donation was well worth picking up. A > prototype Commodore 65 was included. Do tell. How did you score this load? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 11 05:24:32 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:24:32 +0000 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <42D20CEE.7080304@jbrain.com> References: <42D20CEE.7080304@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <1121077472.21744.11.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-11 at 01:08 -0500, Jim Brain wrote: > This weekend, while picking up a large donation of Commodore equipment > (~2000 pounds, the truck springs bottomed out :-), I also secured a > 3B2/310. Alas, I'm not at all up on this type of machine. Google > brought up some information, but I'd appreciate any personal anecdotes > or information. I picked up a 3B2/400 a while ago for the museum - one of the same family as the 310 (IIRC they're the same machine, but the 400 has more expansion slots and drive bays). In case you haven't discovered this, AT&T sold the same line of machines (I'm not sure who actually invented it) - a Google for "ATT 3B2" turns up a lot more hits than the Olivetti route, including a FAQ. I imagine that if you're in the US then your machine's badged as an AT&T anyway :) I get the impression the whole line was pretty popular back in the day, at least on this side of the pond - why the machines aren't more common I don't know (just as DEC are so much more common in the bigger machine class, Sun hardware seems to have drowned out the likes of machines such as the 3B2) We don't have any installation media for our 3B2, or manuals - it did come with a SCSI board and a nice external SCSI QIC tape drive though. cheers Jules From pechter at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 06:00:41 2005 From: pechter at gmail.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:00:41 -0400 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <20050711063008.C627F39541@linux.local> References: <20050711063008.C627F39541@linux.local> Message-ID: <42D25159.8030109@gmail.com> This was the box System V Release 4 Unix was ported on. The Amiga Unix was based on the AT&T SVR4 code -- an old colleague of mine worked on both at AT&T and Commodore. My wife owned one as well... it was AT&T's attempt to (pre-NCR) go intot the commercial computer business against DEC and Sun and the early office automation/mini/workstation folks. It had an AT&T designed 32 bit microcomputer. The 3b product line ran from 3b20 (ex-telephone-switch brains) through the 3b2/310 up through at least a 3b2/1000. They all ran SysVRel 3.2 and later SVR4 Unix. TCP was an expensive add-on product. Bill Bernd Kopriva wrote: >Hi Jim, >was there a "C 900" included ? .... >... i'm still looking for such a beast ! > >Ciao Bernd > >On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:08:46 -0500, Jim Brain wrote: > > > >>This weekend, while picking up a large donation of Commodore equipment >>(~2000 pounds, the truck springs bottomed out :-), I also secured a >>3B2/310. Alas, I'm not at all up on this type of machine. Google >>brought up some information, but I'd appreciate any personal anecdotes >>or information. >> >>Jim >> >>P.S. In other news, the CBM donation was well worth picking up. A >>prototype Commodore 65 was included. >> >> >>-- >>Jim Brain, Brain Innovations >>brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com >>Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >Bernd Kopriva Phone: ++49-7195-179452 >Weilerstr. 24 E-Mail: bernd at kopriva.de >D-71397 Leutenbach >Germany > > > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 11 07:14:37 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 05:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <42D20CEE.7080304@jbrain.com> from Jim Brain at "Jul 11, 5 01:08:46 am" Message-ID: <200507111214.FAA16954@floodgap.com> > P.S. In other news, the CBM donation was well worth picking up. A > prototype Commodore 65 was included. *grumble and want to know how I can score such deals ...* -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's not illogical to believe in God. -------------------------------------- From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 11 07:33:26 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:33:26 +0000 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <200507111214.FAA16954@floodgap.com> References: <200507111214.FAA16954@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1121085206.21763.19.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-07-11 at 05:14 -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > P.S. In other news, the CBM donation was well worth picking up. A > > prototype Commodore 65 was included. > > *grumble and want to know how I can score such deals ...* Luck and a bit of hard work :) It's also just as important to have contacts who *want* stuff as it is having good contacts for getting hold of things, otherwise you end up drowning in items that are of no interest to you. It's always worth picking up carloads of stuff that people are getting rid of though as occasionally there's something really good in there that's worth keeping. I hate to think how many plain old BBC micros and the like have passed through my hands over the years, but every once in a while there's some real gems in there. Providing I find homes for the things I don't want (rather than throwing them out!) I'm happy making the effort to pick up and sort out this stuff... cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jul 11 07:50:19 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:50:19 -0400 Subject: WAS .... PDP-11/23+ and rx-02 drives, need help!!! References: <42D1346F.9010803@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <17106.27403.39733.354643@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> I have cleaned them with board cleaner and checked the switches >> for operation. Some of the IC pins are getting rusty. Are the IC's >> sealed very well or can moisture get in the chips Tony> In theory they're hermetically sealed, in practice it is Tony> possible for contaminants to get into plastic packages Tony> (particularly). Plastic packages are NOT hermetically sealed, which is why metal/ceramic packages are the traditional package for Milspec applications. I'm not sure if they still are always used there, but certainly you're unlikely to find plastic packages in, say, spaceflight applications. Plastic keeps crud out quite well, and casual exposure to moisture shouldn't be any problem. After all, PCBs are washed after assembly to take off the flux. But hermetic -- no. paul From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 11 08:56:49 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:56:49 -0500 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <20050711063008.C627F39541@linux.local> References: <20050711063008.C627F39541@linux.local> Message-ID: <42D27AA1.6050808@jbrain.com> Bernd Kopriva wrote: >Hi Jim, >was there a "C 900" included ? .... >... i'm still looking for such a beast ! > > Could you give a little more detail? Is it SW or HW? What should I look for? I am swimming in obscure parts today. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From bernd at kopriva.de Mon Jul 11 09:16:50 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:16:50 +0200 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? => Commodore C900 In-Reply-To: <42D27AA1.6050808@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20050711125434.F2B1539541@linux.local> Hi Jim, the "C 900" is a Z-8001 based computer, that never got into production ... ... but some hundred machines were delivered to developers. You can find more on that machine on http://www.homecomputer.de/pages/f_commodore.html?Commodore_C900.html or http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/900.html Ciao Bernd On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:56:49 -0500, Jim Brain wrote: >Bernd Kopriva wrote: > >>Hi Jim, >>was there a "C 900" included ? .... >>... i'm still looking for such a beast ! >> >> >Could you give a little more detail? Is it SW or HW? What should I >look for? I am swimming in obscure parts today. > >Jim > > >-- >Jim Brain, Brain Innovations >brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com >Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! > > > > From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 11 09:20:50 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:20:50 -0500 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42D28042.8050205@jbrain.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, Jim Brain wrote: > > > >>P.S. In other news, the CBM donation was well worth picking up. A >>prototype Commodore 65 was included. >> >> > >Do tell. How did you score this load? > > > Anticlimactically, it dropped in my lap. About February, an email came in asking a few of us if we wanted equipment. The 77 year old owner had not touched the equipment in years, and decided it needed to go (taking up room). I responded affirmatively. Further details emerged, that the man had been given 3 or 4 other collections as friends departed the scene. I also inferred the owner was a packrat. After some scheduling conflicts, I was able to hike over to Kenosha, WI last weekend. I had originally planned to take a small (4x8) trailer, but decided the owner must be exaggerating the amount of equipment, so I just took a small platform bike rack and some moving boxes. I arrived to find the "mother of all packrats". I rather wished I had brought the trailer. For various reasons, the owner had not started packing, so we spent 8 years packing and loading. I managed to get it all in the shortbed quad cab truck (with topper), but not a square foot to spare. Among the pieces I saw in passing as I stuffed the truck: 2 Extended Density CMD FD-4000 3.5" drives 10 boxes of the ED media for them. 4 FD-2000 drives 3 C128s 1 C128D 1 CMD HD 1 RAMLink 2 SuperCPU units (1 128, 1 64) 1 C65 (including 220 PS brick and step up transformer) The 3B2 A500 A1000 2 collections of Fred Fish disks 4 or 5 collections of Commodore magazines, including Creative Computing, early Compute!, Ahoy!, Compute's Gazette, Commodore Power/Play, Commodore Microcomputing, etc. I left some UNIX Review, C User's Journal, Dr. Dobb's, etc. If someone is close to WI and interested in those mags, let me know. An Apple //c complete system A TRS-80 Coco3 system Tons of 5.25" disks Lots of commercial software, including disk masters, boxes, manuals, registration cards, etc. To give an idea of the breadth of collecting, the man gave me a sack of freebie ISP disks/CDs (AOL, Earthlink, Compuserve, etc.) Some are from the start of that fad. I started unpacking last night, and quickly realized I am woefully not equipped for this amount of stuff. It's going to take me a month to sort. I'm putting my 7 year old in charge of cataloguing the magazines. At least I unloaded enough so the overload bumpers aren't mashed against the axle now. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 11 09:22:18 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:22:18 -0500 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <1121077472.21744.11.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <42D20CEE.7080304@jbrain.com> <1121077472.21744.11.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <42D2809A.9070105@jbrain.com> Jules Richardson wrote: >We don't have any installation media for our 3B2, or manuals - it did >come with a SCSI board and a nice external SCSI QIC tape drive though. > > As I was leaving, the owner gave me the boot disks and a tape (OS load?) for the unit. They may have writing on them, let me know if that might help. -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Jul 11 09:25:31 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:25:31 -0400 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? => Commodore C900 In-Reply-To: <20050711125434.F2B1539541@linux.local> References: <20050711125434.F2B1539541@linux.local> Message-ID: <42D2815B.7040100@atarimuseum.com> Pretty cool sounding machine.... this was the machine in development at Commodore before they bought Amiga, right? Curt Bernd Kopriva wrote: >Hi Jim, >the "C 900" is a Z-8001 based computer, that never got into production ... >... but some hundred machines were delivered to developers. > >You can find more on that machine on >http://www.homecomputer.de/pages/f_commodore.html?Commodore_C900.html or >http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/900.html > >Ciao Bernd > >On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:56:49 -0500, Jim Brain wrote: > > > >>Bernd Kopriva wrote: >> >> >> >>>Hi Jim, >>>was there a "C 900" included ? .... >>>... i'm still looking for such a beast ! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Could you give a little more detail? Is it SW or HW? What should I >>look for? I am swimming in obscure parts today. >> >>Jim >> >> >>-- >>Jim Brain, Brain Innovations >>brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com >>Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/45 - Release Date: 7/9/2005 From bernd at kopriva.de Mon Jul 11 09:48:03 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:48:03 +0200 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? => Commodore C900 In-Reply-To: <42D2815B.7040100@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20050711132548.1574639541@linux.local> On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:25:31 -0400, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >Pretty cool sounding machine.... this was the machine in development at >Commodore before they bought Amiga, right? > yes, the Amiga deal killed the development of that machine ... ... and maybe a wider usage of the Z8000 processor family :( > >Curt > > >Bernd Kopriva wrote: > >>Hi Jim, >>the "C 900" is a Z-8001 based computer, that never got into production ... >>... but some hundred machines were delivered to developers. >> >>You can find more on that machine on >>http://www.homecomputer.de/pages/f_commodore.html?Commodore_C900.html or >>http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/900.html >> >>Ciao Bernd >> >>On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:56:49 -0500, Jim Brain wrote: >> From nick at computer-history.org Wed Jul 6 18:25:42 2005 From: nick at computer-history.org (computer-history.org) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 18:25:42 -0500 Subject: Apple _1_ on ebay??? References: <20050701151552.5cc9ba50.chenmel@earthlink.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050706184935.03b7c448@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <001601c58282$07a96af0$7a00a8c0@Millers> > Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these > words: > >>There was nothing the first TRS-80 was that the Apple ][ wasn't. > > Grey? Affordable? From aek at spies.com Wed Jul 6 19:40:45 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 17:40:45 -0700 Subject: LGP30 pictures Message-ID: <53df2bd8b679a8e4065639752f65fe57@spies.com> I just put the pics from the auction at www.bitsavers.org/pdf/generalPrecision/LGP30pics From aek at spies.com Thu Jul 7 11:34:11 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 09:34:11 -0700 Subject: WOW!!!! $15k DEC PDP-8 CLASSIC MINICOMPUTER SYSTEM DIGITAL PDP8 Message-ID: > I think Suns will always be collectable, as they are now. There are some > weird things they have made over the years that people seek. Early machines from the 'workstation wars', Apollo and Tektronix come to mind, may be of interest in the future. There doesn't appear to be much on the technical doc or software side around for these. I tried contacting they guy who was working on the Apollo port for NetBSD to get the tech info he was able to collect, but got nowhere. People seem to have saved the later SGI IRIS (3xxx series) though, probably because of the neat graphics demos. From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Thu Jul 7 15:24:00 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:24:00 -0500 Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507072038.j67KcIlw093750@keith.ezwind.net> I would have to agree. I have been building our collection for about two years now and I have had to move everything twice. I spend a lot of time negotiating space wherever I can find it. Fortunately we are planning a new Engineering Building and my endeavors have spiked the interest of the Dean, so the plans now call for a 10K square foot Engineering museum. Since we have a running start we may get the lion's share of the space. Right now I have about 500 Sq. Ft. for storage. We have various displays in different kinds of cases around the building. Sometime in the next week I will be getting 9 vitrines from a museum project here in Arlington that the voters turned down twice. We will spot them about the building. Well, that is probably not of general interest to the list, but I just wanted to show how much of my time and energy this occupies. We have had no trouble filling the space we have with donations. We have a Sys/36 for example, some PDP/11 peripherals, a complete Four-Phase Systems IV/90 (two racks and two washtubs). I spent about $1K on eBay over a year or so getting small systems and bits and pieces such as some tab cards from WW II. We have a really interesting S-100 collection - two Altair 8800b's, an IMSAI or 2, a slug of Cromemcos and a slug of Vectors. Anyway, yes, space and $ are by far my larger concerns. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE Coach - ICPC Programming Team University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:59 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Computer Museum > > On 7/7/05, Joe R. wrote: > > I agree and I'm waiting to see what happens with this attempt. > > Supposedly he has the backing of ITT Institute. Or it may just be > > another attempt to see what some guy can get people to give him. He > > keeps asking about donations and wants a list of what I > have but I've > > told him that I'd be willing to LOAN him computers and > asked what kind > > of stuff he's looking for and I haven't gotten a > satisfactory reply yet. Time will tell. > > Indeed... getting (most) stuff is the easy part. Space/money > is always the kicker. > > -ethan > > From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Thu Jul 7 15:57:57 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 15:57:57 -0500 Subject: Scott Steven's c-NET bbs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200507072148.j67Lm0Is094453@keith.ezwind.net> You most likely know about it, but this looks promising: http://www.cnetbbs.net/ Gil > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of plato computer > Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 9:34 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; Scott Stevens > Subject: Scott Steven's c-NET bbs > > Scott, if you have a copy of c-NET BBS still in existence, or > know of where I can get a copy of it to put on line, I would > love to put up a telnet-based BBS running it. I can assign > an IP address to a serial port and simply use a TTL -> RS232 > level shifting circuit to hook up a 1200- baud emulated > modem. Then, we've got ourselves a C-net bbs. > > Anyone ? > > >Yes, but C-Net is probably dead. C-Net was a popular > Commodore-based > >BBS package. I was active on a few boards that ran it years back- > > get access to > >a > >C64 machine with two (or three) 1541 drives and a 300 baud modem. > > >(sorry for the topic drift) > > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 08:34:04 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 06:34:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM AT Drive Types In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050708133404.3563.qmail@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> The scanning frequencies of the EGA and MDA cards should be real close (MDA outputs 348 lines of res, the EGA 350). You shouldn't have a problem there (I won't comment about the jumpering/shorting though), but keep in mind the original IBM mono monitor was very very touchy. If you plugged it into a CGA card, it was known to...ummm...explode... I won't swear to it, but I had thought there was a way of configuring it specifically for a mono monitor. Don't hold me to it though. Tony Duell wrote: > On this topic, I recently located an original IBM Monochrome monitor, so > for me it's now just a matter of pulling out the EGA Techref and > jumpering the IBM EGA card in my AT for EGA monochrome and plugging the One thing a lot of people forget : There's a jumper on the board near the DE9 connector which selects where pin 2 of said DE9 goes (LSB of one of the colours for an EGA monitor, ground for an MDA or CGA monitor). If you set that to the EGA position and then connect an MDA (or for that matter CGA) monitor, you're shorting an output line to ground via the monitor cable. It probably won't do any harm, but why risk it... -tony --------------------------------- Sell on Yahoo! Auctions - No fees. Bid on great items. From cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co Fri Jul 8 12:21:51 2005 From: cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:21:51 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825tape drive) References: Message-ID: <42CEB62F.5B6F30A1@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ Nah, with my luck there would be an earthquake precisely when I was moving all that; there's enough stuff there to kill/bury every single classiccmp'er. And that is California, right? -- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia ---- "I don't know a lot necessarily about the business or the industry, but I know how to kick butt. That's what I do." Jeffrey R. Immelt, General Electric's CEO, to executives of GE's daughter company MSNBC. From hatfield at bellsouth.net Fri Jul 8 15:03:55 2005 From: hatfield at bellsouth.net (hatfield at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 15:03:55 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 23, Issue 14 References: <200507072024.j67KOU6E055671@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <007f01c583f8$2bce5e00$6101a8c0@DigitalCottage> > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 12:11:20 -0500 > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Re: Time to change the Subject Line! Re: E-bay complaints > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On 7/7/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> On Thu, 7 Jul 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > Isn't there a list member who... passed up an Apple I... >> >> That was me. > > Ow! > > -ethan Still have mine!! Even got my name in the index to the Apple I Replica book... Fred. hatfield at bellsouth.net From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jul 8 15:08:38 2005 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 13:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: international shipping Message-ID: <20050708200838.6138.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Can anyone tell me the best way to have something shipped from say England or the Netherlands (or Germany). Or even Brazil/Argentina. Or even Australia. I know it's not ever going to be cheap, but when you calculate 20 or so pounds from S.America - $300+, I figure there must be a better way. For those of you who already don't know it, FedEx usually beats UPS by a mile at domestic postage. Perhaps half in alot of cases. But they don't cover as many areas as it seems UPS does. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vrs at email.msn.com Sat Jul 9 10:01:31 2005 From: vrs at email.msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 08:01:31 -0700 Subject: DEC 11/45 build References: <00ca01c583d6$67775140$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><5.2.0.9.0.20050708172331.022bdec0@mail.ubanproductions.com> <005a01c5842a$9e14e6f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: From: "Jay West" > I had written.... > >>I have two other H960 racks, guess I'll have to add one to the /45 and > >>make it a dual bay system. The other H960 will probably go to the 11/34 > >>restoration. > And..... I was wrong. Just checked and I only have one other H960 rack. That > means if I go with a dual bay /45, I have no H960 to mount the /34 in. > Bummer. I'll just have to find a way to mount the /34 in one of those lowboy > white corporate cabinets. Not as common of a setup as the H960's, but I'm > not really up for freighting another H960, trying to find more side > panels... etc. So choosing between the two, I'll use my only other H960 to > make the /45 dualbay. Won't that leave you with another set of side panels -- The ones that would have gone on the 11/34? Vince From gcarrick at cse.uta.edu Sat Jul 9 17:06:04 2005 From: gcarrick at cse.uta.edu (A. G. Carrick) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 17:06:04 -0500 Subject: 11/45 is alive (I'm singing "who's johnny") In-Reply-To: <42D02F09.4030601@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200507092214.j69MExI5016270@keith.ezwind.net> > > Now what is GRID BIAS ... :) > LOL! newbies! ;) From ed at groenenberg.net Sun Jul 10 01:55:22 2005 From: ed at groenenberg.net (Ed) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 08:55:22 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VAX 3400 available in Alabama Message-ID: <65503.192.168.1.1.1120978522.squirrel@192.168.1.1> Available in near/in Huntsville Alabama, a VAX 3400 + extra's. Please contact him using the email address below. ====== >On Fri, 8 juli, 2005 10:12 pm, wcrouch at cwcinc.net said: > > > > ... Interested in a MicroVax 3400 system > > (multiple drive towers, BA 11/K unibus chassis - > > with interface cards for connecting with the > > MicroVax, multiple xterms, line printer, tape > > drives, documentation, ...)? > > It was the control computer for a multi-gigabit > > per sec Aptec crossbar I/O system. > > > > I also have the aptec. It uses ECL logic, so the > > power supply is 2v at around 1000 amps. 'Makes a > > nice spot-welder! > > From dan.howard at adelphia.net Sun Jul 10 05:51:39 2005 From: dan.howard at adelphia.net (Dan Howard) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 03:51:39 -0700 Subject: Old computers Message-ID: <001d01c5853d$5a313240$07e2a944@ventca.adelphia.net> I have two AT&T unix pc 7300 systems, with manuals, books on unix, and lots of software and an extra monitor plus some upgrades, looking for a good home. If interested e-mail me at dan.howard at adelphia.net with offer. From rimmer at xs4all.nl Sun Jul 10 12:19:51 2005 From: rimmer at xs4all.nl (Stefan) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 19:19:51 +0200 Subject: Apple cable ? Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710191928.02dc5408@pop.xs4all.nl> Can anyone tell me what kind of Apple cables these are ? http://www.oldcomputercollection.com/applekabel.jpg Thanks! Stefan. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jul 11 10:25:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:25:04 -0400 Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? In-Reply-To: References: <20050710135051.H50937@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050711112504.00a22100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:10 PM 7/10/05 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >That's really not a half bad idea. Is it legal to take advantage of >stupid people? Sure it is. What do you think lotterys are all about? Joe From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jul 11 10:51:02 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple cable ? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050710191928.02dc5408@pop.xs4all.nl> from Stefan at "Jul 10, 5 07:19:51 pm" Message-ID: <200507111551.IAA13284@floodgap.com> > Can anyone tell me what kind of Apple cables these are ? > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com/applekabel.jpg They're *still* LocalTalk cables. :) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- :wq! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jul 11 10:44:22 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <42D28042.8050205@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, Jim Brain wrote: > I arrived to find the "mother of all packrats". I rather wished I had > brought the trailer. For various reasons, the owner had not started > packing, so we spent 8 years packing and loading. I managed to get it > all in the shortbed quad cab truck (with topper), but not a square foot > to spare. 8 years! My gawd, that is epic! ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jul 11 10:48:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:48:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825tape drive) In-Reply-To: <42CEB62F.5B6F30A1@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Carlos Murillo-Sanchez wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > And here are photos so you can see what you're up against: > > > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/Warehouse/ > > Nah, with my luck there would be an earthquake precisely when > I was moving all that; there's enough stuff there > to kill/bury every single classiccmp'er. And that is California, right? I do worry about that. The current arrangement is definitely not earthquake safe. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vax9000 at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 11:03:02 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:03:02 -0400 Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825tape drive) In-Reply-To: References: <42CEB62F.5B6F30A1@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: How do you make a use of this huge collection? From compoobah at valleyimplants.com Mon Jul 11 11:11:10 2005 From: compoobah at valleyimplants.com (Scott Quinn) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:11:10 -0700 Subject: repairing cracked plastic In-Reply-To: <200507110937.j6B9b0ke005444@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200507110937.j6B9b0ke005444@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20195b80ff63dc76a9c1fd77331e9bb2@valleyimplants.com> I have had good luck (depends on plastic-see below) with MEK (Methyl-Ethyl-Ketone), works the same way as the dichloromethane, can be acquired in most hardware shops. It doesn't work very well on some of the "alloy" plastics (GE Cyclolloy? mix of polycarbonate and ABS. Superglue doesn't even work here-the plastic disintegrates into a mealy mush). Fortunately, that seems to be only used in newer Suns and PCs. Drywaller's Fiberglass tape might be a good strong inorganic reinforcer, or I sometimes use interfacing (a semi-fabric thing) when I repair books- might work for computers too. In books, it seems to grab the glue better than standard woven fabric. -Scott Quinn From fireflyst at earthlink.net Mon Jul 11 11:48:31 2005 From: fireflyst at earthlink.net (Julian Wolfe) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:48:31 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 Message-ID: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> My DEC dealer has a RA82 he wants $200 for, and I was thinking of trading him one of my RL02s for it. That's what actually came in this chassis, but I'm really concerned about the power requirements of the disk and controller - I know the KDA50 is a pig, but I do have a separate expansion box for it. My real concern is blowing a breaker in my apartment building. Now, I've read the current surge draw on a RA81 (in the RA81 user guide) is 35A in 110V mode. Is this correct? Also, what are my power bills going to look like running this thing 24/7? A already run one RL02 and the CPU 24/7, and I'm talking about adding an expansion box to it with the KDA50...will I be OK on one 15A circuit? Logic with these numbers says no, but I saw somewhere on the web where a guy said he was running an 11/750, RA82, and some other stuff all off 1 15A circuit. The only way I can see this working is if the drive spins up somehow by trickle charging a cap(or more than just 1) and then spinning up the drive. Can anyone shed any light on this? Will I blow something with this RA disk on my setup? Thanks Julian From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 11 11:51:57 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on ebay - Well, WAS it an Apple 1?? Message-ID: <200507111651.JAA26986@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Sat, 9 Jul 2005, John Napier wrote: > >> But, I mean, just in terms of getting a response at all, it's harder >> for someone to speak up if they are already judged a "moron". >> I'd love to hear what they actually got, without calling them names >> if it turns out to be an apple //e or whatever. >> >> - Joe >> >> (we've all fucked up at least once. I bought a Bentley for 20K that I >> sold for 6K. e.g.) > >That's not a fuck-up, that's reality. You made the choice knowing >everything. There's no analogy whatsoever to what happened here, which is >someone buying a wooden box with a keyboard on speculation (driven by the >seller's fraud through omission) that it was something else. > >If it does end up being an Apple-1 I will eat my first born. > Hi There is a real good chance that the wood box computer wasn't even found in the same collection as the Apple. the seller just put the two together for effect. Dwight From bdwheele at indiana.edu Mon Jul 11 11:54:13 2005 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:54:13 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> References: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> Message-ID: <1121100853.9089.3.camel@wombat.dlib.indiana.edu> I used to run a MVII with an RA82 all plugged in to a cheapie powerstrip without tripping it. Of course, you had to turn on the drive, wait for it to settle and then power up everything else. As far as power costs go...beats me, I kept it at work and let them pay for it :) Brian On Mon, 2005-07-11 at 11:48 -0500, Julian Wolfe wrote: > My DEC dealer has a RA82 he wants $200 for, and I was thinking of trading > him one of my RL02s for it. That's what actually came in this chassis, but > I'm really concerned about the power requirements of the disk and > controller - I know the KDA50 is a pig, but I do have a separate expansion > box for it. My real concern is blowing a breaker in my apartment building. > Now, I've read the current surge draw on a RA81 (in the RA81 user guide) is > 35A in 110V mode. Is this correct? > Also, what are my power bills going to look like running this thing 24/7? A > already run one RL02 and the CPU 24/7, and I'm talking about adding an > expansion box to it with the KDA50...will I be OK on one 15A circuit? Logic > with these numbers says no, but I saw somewhere on the web where a guy said > he was running an 11/750, RA82, and some other stuff all off 1 15A circuit. > The only way I can see this working is if the drive spins up somehow by > trickle charging a cap(or more than just 1) and then spinning up the drive. > > Can anyone shed any light on this? Will I blow something with this RA disk > on my setup? > > Thanks > Julian > > From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jul 11 11:49:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Take My Warehouse, Please! (was Re: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825tape drive) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, 9000 VAX wrote: > How do you make a use of this huge collection? www.vintage.org www.vintagetech.com -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 11 11:56:12 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 09:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Discrete Component FlipFlop Message-ID: <200507111656.JAA26990@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "woodelf" > >Marvin Johnston wrote: >> Our annual Bazaar was held today with all the leftover stuff now at my >> house ... briefly! In searching through the stuff this afternoon, I >> found several boards that I couldn't identify. One is labeled "FlipFlop" >> and the other "Inverter". I put up a picture of both sides of the >> FlipFlop at: >> >It will only take another 2513 more years to collect the whole computer. >Off Hand the logo on the Flip/flop is you best bet to find who made it. >That is not dec and IBM. > Hi I also noted that I don't see any 3 lead devices? I doubt it was for tubes so where are the transistors? Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 11 12:08:28 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:08:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? Message-ID: <200507111708.KAA27014@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Bernd If you should find one, I'd be willing to help you get CP/M-8000 running on it. Dwight >From: "Bernd Kopriva" > >Hi Jim, >was there a "C 900" included ? .... >... i'm still looking for such a beast ! > >Ciao Bernd > >On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:08:46 -0500, Jim Brain wrote: > >>This weekend, while picking up a large donation of Commodore equipment >>(~2000 pounds, the truck springs bottomed out :-), I also secured a >>3B2/310. Alas, I'm not at all up on this type of machine. Google >>brought up some information, but I'd appreciate any personal anecdotes >>or information. >> >>Jim >> >>P.S. In other news, the CBM donation was well worth picking up. A >>prototype Commodore 65 was included. >> >> >>-- >>Jim Brain, Brain Innovations >>brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com >>Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! >> >> >> >> > > >Bernd Kopriva Phone: ++49-7195-179452 >Weilerstr. 24 E-Mail: bernd at kopriva.de >D-71397 Leutenbach >Germany > > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Jul 11 12:12:50 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 13:12:50 -0400 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> References: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> Message-ID: <42D2A892.2070504@atarimuseum.com> For the sake of your home, I would recommend getting another additional circuit into your computer room, most homes (unless you request and pay for) have 15a rated circuit wiring and can carry 20a loads if you upgrade the breaker, but if you go above that you are now risking overheat on your wiring and outlets and you could be risking a fire. Curt Julian Wolfe wrote: > My DEC dealer has a RA82 he wants $200 for, and I was thinking of > trading him one of my RL02s for it. That's what actually came in this > chassis, but I'm really concerned about the power requirements of the > disk and controller - I know the KDA50 is a pig, but I do have a > separate expansion box for it. My real concern is blowing a breaker > in my apartment building. Now, I've read the current surge draw on a > RA81 (in the RA81 user guide) is 35A in 110V mode. Is this correct? > Also, what are my power bills going to look like running this thing > 24/7? A already run one RL02 and the CPU 24/7, and I'm talking about > adding an expansion box to it with the KDA50...will I be OK on one 15A > circuit? Logic with these numbers says no, but I saw somewhere on > the web where a guy said he was running an 11/750, RA82, and some > other stuff all off 1 15A circuit. The only way I can see this working > is if the drive spins up somehow by trickle charging a cap(or more > than just 1) and then spinning up the drive. > > Can anyone shed any light on this? Will I blow something with this RA > disk on my setup? > > Thanks > Julian > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/45 - Release Date: 7/9/2005 From marvin at rain.org Mon Jul 11 12:13:37 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:13:37 -0700 Subject: Discrete Component FlipFlop References: <200507111700.j6BH03fS010781@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42D2A8C1.FAABC426@rain.org> > >Marvin Johnston wrote: > >> Our annual Bazaar was held today with all the leftover stuff now at my > >> house ... briefly! In searching through the stuff this afternoon, I > >> found several boards that I couldn't identify. One is labeled "FlipFlop" > >> and the other "Inverter". I put up a picture of both sides of the > >> FlipFlop at: http://www.rain.org/~marvin/flipflop.jpg > I also noted that I don't see any 3 lead devices? I doubt > it was for tubes so where are the transistors? > Dwight The transistors are inside the plastic pieces at each end of the board. The flipflop board has one on each side, and the inverter has two on each side. The plastic pieces are riveted to the board, so I can't easily see the transistor ID. I think I've checked almost everything now, and there are three flipflop boards and two inverters. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Mon Jul 11 12:33:11 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:33:11 +0200 Subject: international shipping In-Reply-To: <20050708200838.6138.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050708200838.6138.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050711193008.02ddaff8@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Hmm my experience with destinations is that Fedex beats UPS with that too! I am talking exotic destinations though. Anyway, up to 20 kilo's from the Netherlands to outside europe its best to ship via the Dutch postal office. They dont send anything heavier than 20 kilo's so you'll need to turn to FedEx or some other company. Stefan. At 22:08 8-7-2005, you wrote: >Can anyone tell me the best way to have something shipped from say >England or the Netherlands (or Germany). Or even Brazil/Argentina. >Or even Australia. I know it's not ever going to be cheap, but when >you calculate 20 or so pounds from S.America - $300+, I figure there >must be a better way. > For those of you who already don't know it, FedEx usually beats > UPS by a mile at domestic postage. Perhaps half in alot of cases. > But they don't cover as many areas as it seems UPS does. > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 12:25:25 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:25:25 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> References: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> Message-ID: On 7/11/05, Julian Wolfe wrote: > My DEC dealer has a RA82 he wants $200 for, and I was thinking of trading > him one of my RL02s for it. That's what actually came in this chassis, but > I'm really concerned about the power requirements of the disk and > controller - I know the KDA50 is a pig, but I do have a separate expansion > box for it. My real concern is blowing a breaker in my apartment building. > Now, I've read the current surge draw on a RA81 (in the RA81 user guide) is > 35A in 110V mode. Is this correct? The surge _is_ over 30A, but it seems to be brief enough that you _should_ be OK re: tripping breakers, but my experience is in a house where I _knew_ it was on its own circuit. Steady-state draw is about 8A, so to avoid problems, power up the drive, wait 30 sec to stabilize (should go faster than that, but better safe than sorry), _then_ power up the rest of the system. Unfortunately, in an apartment setting, it's possible you don't have a) 12 ga wiring, and b) breakers feeding small numbers of outlets. What if your neighbor (or you) fire up the microwave that's on the same circuit... > Also, what are my power bills going to look like running this thing 24/7? A > already run one RL02 and the CPU 24/7, and I'm talking about adding an > expansion box to it with the KDA50...will I be OK on one 15A circuit? Power bills? An RA81 (similar draw to RA82) is about a 1000W device. So just the drive alone is going to cost 24kWH per day to run - if your rate is abour $0.11/kWH, that's $2.64/day for just the drive. I have an 8300 in the basement with an RA81 and MBA 2.4GB SDI disk box. I use the RA81 only as required (i.e., not much), and run things off of the dual 5.25" ESDI drives in the MBA box. Much cheaper. I also tend to run a uVAX-II more than the 8300 - same amount of RAM, and with an RD54, not _too_ bad in terms of power/performance, but the disk size limits me to VMS 6.1 (I think that's what's on it - haven't used it in over a year with my travels). I could throw a KDA50 in there, but as you point out, it would need its own expansion BA23 for power (I have it, but haven't attached it). So... figure on at least $3/day for the CPU and disks, more or less, depending on your rates. You can see that after a couple of months, you might as well drop the $200 or so on a Qbus SCSI controller... you'll pay more than that in power plus the cost of the RA82. Options include a smaller SDI drive (RA90, or a smaller still RA7x), or an ESDI/SMD controller and a smaller drive than an RA82. If you already _had_ the RA82, it might not be too bad, or if the RA82 were free. To have to _pay_ $200 plus S&H, you might as well put that money towards a Qbus SCSI controller and use an old 4GB SCSI drive. Cheaper in the long run, and unless you have a thing for 100% DEC end-to-end, still a period solution (and it will fit in the BA23!) -ethan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 11 12:32:10 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Replace roller rubber on HP 9825 tape drive Message-ID: <200507111732.KAA27038@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >> > Hi Tony >> > I'm proposing an experiment for you since I know that >> > you are the type that would actually try it. >> >> I am going to try this, although probably not tonight... >> >> However, even if it does bahave as you suggest, it still doesn't explain >> _why_... I will have to think about this some more... > >Sorry to follow up my own message, but I spent last night thinking about >it, and I think I now understand it. > >The things that are important are (a) the belt is elastic and therefore >stretches, and (b) the drage from the spools means that the tension in >the belt is not the same all the way round. There is more tension in the >belt on the takeup side than on the supply side. > >Supppos that a certain length of belt has gone past the supply spool (and >thus wound off that length of tape). As it goes round the takeup spool the >belt will be stretched a little more, so it will move the surface of that >spool by more than the amount that the surface of the supply spool was >moved. It will try to wind more tape onto the takeup spool, thus >tensioning the tape. > >For obvious reasons this effect is small. It helps to have the tape >fairly well tensioned before using the cartridge. If you're reassembling >a defective one, I'd tension the tape as much as possible by hand. > >If you could make a cartridge with the belt round the outside, and with >the drive roller possitioned far enough forward to let the bead get in >contact with the tape (inside the loop formed by the belt), it wouldn't >work. There'd be more movement on the supply side, the tape would get >ever more slack. > >-tony > Hi That is why I mentioned to Joe that you need to pull on the supply side tape a little to get it to take up the slack. That is what I recall doing when I replaced the bad roller. I don't recall how I got the last little bit of slack out of the tape. I remember holding onto it with a ChemWipe to keep my finger oils off the tape but that only works until is gets close. One still needs to suck in the last bit of slack before putting it into a machine. Like I said, it was counter intuitive to pull on the supply side to get the take-up side to suck in the tape but that is what I recall. It wasn't until now, years later, that I thought about how it could work. Thinking about how the Bernoulli's principle worked with a elastic band helped to figure it out. The more stretched band at the take-up has to have a higher surface speed. It should be fun to confirm by the spool experiment :) It was a fun thought experiment anyway. Dwight From computer at officereach.net Mon Jul 11 13:11:50 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:11:50 -0700 Subject: international shipping In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.0.20050711193008.02ddaff8@mail.zeelandnet.nl> References: <20050708200838.6138.qmail@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> <6.2.3.4.0.20050711193008.02ddaff8@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Message-ID: By far, call up DHL and tell them taht you are doing international shipping, and they will put together a price schedule for you that will beat anything, hands off. As part of the pricing schedule, they will automatically give you extra-special domestic shipping as well. it's way worth it. Only problem with domestic shipping is that DHL doesn't require signatures, but other than that, it saves a load. -----Original Message----- From: Stefan To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:33:11 +0200 Subject: Re: international shipping > Hmm my experience with destinations is that Fedex beats UPS with that > too! > I am talking exotic destinations though. Anyway, up to 20 kilo's from > the Netherlands to outside europe its best to ship via the Dutch > postal office. They dont send anything heavier than 20 kilo's so > you'll need to turn to FedEx or some other company. > > Stefan. > > At 22:08 8-7-2005, you wrote: > >Can anyone tell me the best way to have something shipped from say > >England or the Netherlands (or Germany). Or even Brazil/Argentina. > >Or even Australia. I know it's not ever going to be cheap, but when > >you calculate 20 or so pounds from S.America - $300+, I figure there > >must be a better way. > > For those of you who already don't know it, FedEx usually beats > > UPS by a mile at domestic postage. Perhaps half in alot of cases. > > But they don't cover as many areas as it seems UPS does. > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >http://mail.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------------------------------- > http://www.oldcomputercollection.com > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 11 13:09:11 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: international shipping Message-ID: <200507111809.LAA27046@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "plato computer" > >By far, call up DHL and tell them taht you are doing international ---snip--- Hi But how does one ship a rack mounted machine that weighs about 80 lbs and is 15 inches tall?? Dwight From brian at quarterbyte.com Mon Jul 11 13:27:55 2005 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:27:55 -0700 Subject: univac something or other Message-ID: <42D257BB.18809.2D5759B0@localhost> Anyone know what this is? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7335084988 It appears too be a CRT terminal of some sort, but the box is pretty large, which is odd. Key to disk maybe? From the styling it looks like late 70's, early 80's? This is the item's second time up. I've written to the seller twice for more info but he's not bothered to respond. I'm curious to know if anyone recognizes this. Google didn't turn anything up. Brian From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jul 11 13:47:18 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 11:47:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <42D2A892.2070504@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > For the sake of your home, I would recommend getting another additional > circuit into your computer room, most homes (unless you request and pay > for) have 15a rated circuit wiring and can carry 20a loads if you > upgrade the breaker, but if you go above that you are now risking > overheat on your wiring and outlets and you could be risking a fire. NO! NO! NO! BAD ADVICE! One should never replace a breaker with a higher rated one unless they are sure the wiring can accomodate the increased amperage. A 15A breaker requires 14 guage wire. A 20A breaker requires 12 guage wire. Putting a 20A breaker on 14 guage wire is flirting with disaster. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From computer at officereach.net Mon Jul 11 14:05:37 2005 From: computer at officereach.net (plato computer) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:05:37 -0700 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: References: <42D2A892.2070504@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Every time I open up the back of a monitor or computer power supply, I'm flirting with Disaster! I'm a good flirt, I've been told. I dunno - it seems a miracle to me that I'm still alive, in fact. ;-) Good advice , tho; if not the fact that it's probably not smart to re-wire the breaker, it will certainly invalidate your insurance if anything ever happens in your home, even if it's unrelated; the insurance company will find a way to make it as such. > > NO! NO! NO! BAD ADVICE! > > One should never replace a breaker with a higher rated one unless they > are > sure the wiring can accomodate the increased amperage. A 15A breaker > requires 14 guage wire. A 20A breaker requires 12 guage wire. Putting > a > 20A breaker on 14 guage wire is flirting with disaster. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From tomj at wps.com Mon Jul 11 14:13:30 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <200507101851.j6AIpPhn024463@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200507101851.j6AIpPhn024463@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20050711121251.Q1150@fiche.wps.com> This sounds really great, a good match of ponderous resources and local talent. On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, 'Computer Collector Newsletter' wrote: > Out here in NJ, we've been extremely lucky with the new-ish local club, > MARCH (Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists). There's a new science > musuem being built at a former army base, they already have official > non-profit status, and they even inherited an existing computer collection. > They found our group, and we found them, via mutual contacts at the Trenton > Computer Festival. Turns out they wanted to find a group of people who > could manage their collection. So basically they are "giving" us a museum > to run. A few of us already toured the base and they've got dozens and > dozens of acres of land and empty buildings. At one point they took us to a > building called "the library" (the base was also a college at one point) and > they said, oh, that building's yours! We also learned that part of the > collection we're getting includes an actual ENIAC card. Cool! > > Our club isn't listed yet, but the facility itself is at infoage.org (our > club is temporarily at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ ) ... > I guess the moral of all this is that it's helpful to make computer museums > part of existing, related facilities, rather than trying to start from > scratch. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Keys > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2005 12:29 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Computer Museum > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jules Richardson" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:27 PM > Subject: Re: Computer Museum > >> >> Personally I wouldn't give anything to anyone who didn't have space >> for it already though - they should be able to amass enough of a >> collection first to know if it's viable, get some display space, and >> then put out an appeal to enthusiasts. >> >> cheers >> >> Jules >> > This helps me understand why there is very little reponse to my JUST A BUCK > campaign asking for $1 from each person that visit's the museum website. > There seems to be very little(if any) help for start-ups in the museum > sector. I have seem two computer museum starts-ups get large funding help > but the people starting them were already rich and their friends gave big > bucks ( 1 million or more). >> > From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 11 14:23:41 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:23:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: univac something or other In-Reply-To: <42D257BB.18809.2D5759B0@localhost> Message-ID: > It appears too be a CRT terminal of some sort, but the box is pretty > large, which is odd. Key to disk maybe? From the styling it looks > like late 70's, early 80's? Yes, I would agree. The 60s and early 70s stuff has the orange strip thru everything. > This is the item's second time up. I've written to the seller > twice for more info but he's not bothered to respond. > I'm curious to know if anyone recognizes this. Google didn't > turn anything up. The tape drive he had up is older. It is way too expensive at $1250 or whatever, but it would be nice to have (my 9300 is a disk machine, but all the software is for a tape machine). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From tomj at wps.com Mon Jul 11 14:25:54 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <200507100735.30041.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050710011909.G1403@fiche.wps.com> <200507100735.30041.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <20050711121408.V1150@fiche.wps.com> On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Lyle Bickley wrote: >> Public funding for the arts has been reduced to a practical zero >> by right-wing corporate goons, sicko christian loonies, and the >> dwindling resources that remain go to fewer and fewer recipients. > > There are some of us "corporate goons, sicko christian loonies" who do a lot > of volunteer work for and have donated generously to the Computer History > Museum Clearly then you're not one of them. I refer to an enumerable list of virulent reactionary activists working hard and often extra-legally to push the U.S. (particularly) in a specific and narrow direction. There are plenty of responsible businesses. There are clearly plenty of christian-persuasion people doing wonderful things in all realms; vast numbers of the civil-rights movement, for example, it goes without saying. My emphasis was on right-wing extremists, and sicko loonies; those that want to control other peoples behaviours for their own gains. However the corporate- and christian- subcategories are particularly virulent at the moment, and pointful to their behavior. You have my apologies if it sounded like I meant otherwise. Anyways my point was that largely, the funding of open and ideologically-untethered arts is not valued highly by the powers-that-be at the moment. From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 11 14:29:45 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 15:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > NO! NO! NO! BAD ADVICE! > > One should never replace a breaker with a higher rated one unless they are > sure the wiring can accomodate the increased amperage. A 15A breaker > requires 14 guage wire. A 20A breaker requires 12 guage wire. Putting a > 20A breaker on 14 guage wire is flirting with disaster. I would not call it "flirting with disaster", but it is not a good idea. The chances of a fire breaking out under this circumstance is damn small, but it is there. On the flip side, many homes are wired with 12 anyway, so the replacement breakers are OK. Some codes require 12 wire for everyday household circuits. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From tomj at wps.com Mon Jul 11 14:32:03 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:32:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Public funding for the "Arts" Re: Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <42D13F0C.3070901@mdrconsult.com> References: <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.16.20050706173505.4c3f90da@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20050707114802.M5021@localhost> <1120764444.15420.141.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050710110009.00a1b890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <42D13F0C.3070901@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20050711123108.A1150@fiche.wps.com> On Sun, 10 Jul 2005, Doc Shipley wrote: > No good can come of this. > > $ cat $thread > /dev/null 2>&1 You're right. I'll drop it. Someone else can have the last word. Sorry I mentioned it. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 11 14:44:36 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 12:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Discrete Component FlipFlop Message-ID: <200507111944.MAA27093@clulw009.amd.com> Hi If they are JK's, you could make a divider connected to some LED's and use a 555 to run them. That symbol on them must be from some manufacture. These might have been fro some embedded system, such as an elevator and not necessarily from a computer. A machine I worked on in the service had a number of flop boards and other logic boards ( different form factor than yours ) but was not a computer. Dwight >X-Server-Uuid: 5FC0E2DF-CD44-48CD-883A-0ED95B391E89 >Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:13:37 -0700 >From: "Marvin Johnston" >X-Accept-Language: en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.81, clamav-milter version 0.81b on keith.ezwind.net >X-Virus-Status: Clean >X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=4.0 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=failed version=3.0.2 >X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.2 (2004-11-16) on keith.ezwind.net >Subject: Re: Discrete Component FlipFlop >X-BeenThere: cctalk at classiccmp.org >X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 >List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >List-Unsubscribe: , >List-Archive: >List-Post: >List-Help: >List-Subscribe: , >X-MMS-Spam-Confidence: moderate >X-MMS-Content-Rating: broadcast >X-MMS-Spam-Filter-ID: A2005071105_IBF_2.0.0 >X-WSS-ID: 6ECC76BE2CC1743744-01-01 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > >> >Marvin Johnston wrote: >> >> Our annual Bazaar was held today with all the leftover stuff now at my >> >> house ... briefly! In searching through the stuff this afternoon, I >> >> found several boards that I couldn't identify. One is labeled "FlipFlop" >> >> and the other "Inverter". I put up a picture of both sides of the >> >> FlipFlop at: http://www.rain.org/~marvin/flipflop.jpg > >> I also noted that I don't see any 3 lead devices? I doubt >> it was for tubes so where are the transistors? >> Dwight > >The transistors are inside the plastic pieces at each end of the board. >The flipflop board has one on each side, and the inverter has two on >each side. The plastic pieces are riveted to the board, so I can't >easily see the transistor ID. I think I've checked almost everything >now, and there are three flipflop boards and two inverters. > From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jul 11 15:30:55 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:30:55 -0400 Subject: Power and the RA82 References: Message-ID: <17106.55039.24674.563853@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> NO! NO! NO! BAD ADVICE! >> >> One should never replace a breaker with a higher rated one unless >> they are sure the wiring can accomodate the increased amperage. A >> 15A breaker requires 14 guage wire. A 20A breaker requires 12 >> guage wire. Putting a 20A breaker on 14 guage wire is flirting >> with disaster. William> I would not call it "flirting with disaster", but it is not William> a good idea. The chances of a fire breaking out under this William> circumstance is damn small, but it is there. William> On the flip side, many homes are wired with 12 anyway, so William> the replacement breakers are OK. So I've heard. I've seen it rarely if ever. Note that 20 amp requires 12 gauge copper. In homes of the right (wrong?) age, you may find 12 gauge aluminum -- that's legal only for 15 amps. If you want aluminum and 20 amps, you'll need 10 gauge -- plus components rated for aluminum wire, which are generally somewhere between rare and nonexistent, and often very expensive. paul From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Mon Jul 11 15:47:06 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:47:06 +0200 Subject: Teleprint 390 In-Reply-To: References: <42D18D11.5030004@hachti.de> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.0.20050711224431.02b45ed0@mail.zeelandnet.nl> I just hooked up my Teleprint 390 to my laptop and it works like a charm, almost 100%. I can type on my laptop and the output appears on both the papertape as typed. And what I type on the Teleprint appears on my laptop but what it doesn't do is when I feed it a papertape output it on the laptop (only parts). It does output it correctly on the Teleprint itself. Any idea's what might be wrong here ? I am not a real technical person but willing to give anything a try :-) Stefan. At 00:35 11-7-2005, you wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > Is the 'call control unit' -- the electronics chassis on the right hand > > > side -- the same? > > On *my* 390 there is a slightly different "call control unit". But I > > have several 33s and nearly each has a different ccu. Normally you don't > >There is one Teletype call control unit that was used in the version that >had a built-in 20mA loop interface and no modem. This is the version >that was supposed to be directly connected to the computer's interface, >and it's the version most commonly found. > > > > have to worry about that if you have a current loop device in working > > condition. There are also a lot of different wiring options for the > >No, but it certainly matters if you have to repair it... > > > machine..... > > > > > where the mechaical bits are normal Teletype ones, but the > > > call control unit is very different. It's built on a couple of PCBs (!) > > > and can handle both RS232 and current loop interfaces. > > Hey, that's cool. PCBs are normal in all CCUs. > >The Teletype one I menitoned has one little PCB in the selector magnet >driver (the reader PSU, also on a PCB, is not strictly part of the CCU, >even). There's a lot of hard-wiring too. > >The Data Dynamics one, IIRC, has 3 PCBs in it. One carries all the Molex >connectors at the back, which the mechanical parts plug into. The others >contain the reader PSU, singalling PSU, selector magnet driver, etc. >Almost no components no on the PSU. > > > It will be hard to find schmematics for that. > >Yes, but probably not too hard to trace out by hand if need be. > > > > > > Believe it or not, the Teletype manuals for the Model 33 do > have cleaning > > > and lubrication charts for the cover... > > :-) > > ... but there's no information about glueing together broken pieces of > > grey plastic.... :-) > >The best way to do this IMHO is to put the bits together and run a brush >dipped in dichloromethane along the cracks. This will disolve the plastic >and weld the parts together. Now take some cotton fabric, put it over the >repair on the inside of the case, and brush it over with the >dichloromethane. When the plastic has softened, force the fabric into it. >The result is a fairly strong repair... > >-tony ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Jul 11 15:39:51 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:39:51 -0400 Subject: FW: [FreecycleRockville] Offer: VAX VMS manuals Message-ID: Available in Maryland. I can't get or store them. > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas Sudbrink [mailto:TSudbrink at omhrc.gov] > Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 3:55 PM > To: Bill Sudbrink > Subject: FW: [FreecycleRockville] Offer: VAX VMS manuals > > > Hey Bill, > Not sure if this is something that would interest you but I thought I'd > pass it along. > Todd > > > > Subject: [FreecycleRockville] Offer: VAX VMS manuals > > Free 30+ VAX VMS manuals in original DEC Grey Binders. Most have never > been used. > > Pick up in Olney near Mont Gen Hosp. From GOOI at oce.nl Mon Jul 11 15:43:59 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:43:59 +0200 Subject: international shipping Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D85@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi Chris, well, from The Netherlands to other countries *inside* Europe the Dutch Postal Service accepts packages upto 30 kilo, and then the max shipping costs are 39 Euro. *Outside* Europe the max weight is only 20 kilo, and economy shipping is 53 Euro, and priority shipping is 108 Euro. 100 Euro is approx 130 US$, so asking $300 is a rip off I would say! - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: cctech at classiccmp.org Sent: 8-7-2005 22:08 Subject: international shipping Can anyone tell me the best way to have something shipped from say England or the Netherlands (or Germany). Or even Brazil/Argentina. Or even Australia. I know it's not ever going to be cheap, but when you calculate 20 or so pounds from S.America - $300+, I figure there must be a better way. For those of you who already don't know it, FedEx usually beats UPS by a mile at domestic postage. Perhaps half in alot of cases. But they don't cover as many areas as it seems UPS does. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jul 11 16:10:02 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:10:02 -0400 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: References: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> Message-ID: <42D2E02A.nailD4K11VHCA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > Steady-state draw is about 8A [RA81] Even that's an over-estimate. I'd say a few hundred watts after spin-up. That'd be 2-3A (modulo the power factor... there's a big motor but the power factor cannot be all that bad could it?) Tim. From csmuseum at cse.uta.edu Mon Jul 11 10:43:56 2005 From: csmuseum at cse.uta.edu (Director) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 10:43:56 -0500 Subject: Sigh! In-Reply-To: <20050711132548.1574639541@linux.local> Message-ID: <200507111552.j6BFqpZ6033959@keith.ezwind.net> I don't quite know what to say about this: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/6241/univac.html Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE Coach - ICPC Programming Team University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From GOOI at oce.nl Mon Jul 11 16:19:12 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen, Henk) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 23:19:12 +0200 Subject: univac something or other Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D87@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi Brian, for a moment I thought it was an SSP, but the SSP would have some 8 inch floppy drives. IIRC the SSP (System Support Processor?) was needed to startup the 1100 series before you could mount a tape with a sysgen'ed bootable system. Unisus (Sperry) machines required a sysgen for every disk or tape drive or whatever. Very unlike PDP-11's which recognize what options are connected to the bus. But then again, an 1100 is quite a different league, as is EXEC, the Operating System. This is all very vague to me. Anybody, please feel free to correct me. So, I am not sure Brian. The SSP's I ever saw where alike, but then different :~) my 2c, - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: 11-7-2005 20:27 Subject: univac something or other Anyone know what this is? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7335084988 It appears too be a CRT terminal of some sort, but the box is pretty large, which is odd. Key to disk maybe? From the styling it looks like late 70's, early 80's? This is the item's second time up. I've written to the seller twice for more info but he's not bothered to respond. I'm curious to know if anyone recognizes this. Google didn't turn anything up. Brian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 16:31:58 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:31:58 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <42D2E02A.nailD4K11VHCA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> <42D2E02A.nailD4K11VHCA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: On 7/11/05, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Steady-state draw is about 8A [RA81] > > Even that's an over-estimate. I'd say a few hundred watts after > spin-up. That'd be 2-3A (modulo the power factor... there's a big > motor but the power factor cannot be all that bad could it?) I will admit that I haven't measured it myself. Don't forget there are several square feet of layered circuits in an RA81 - it's not just the motor, but I'm willing to concede that the drive might not draw the stated 8A @ 120VAC. -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jul 11 16:39:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jul 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > NO! NO! NO! BAD ADVICE! > > > > One should never replace a breaker with a higher rated one unless they are > > sure the wiring can accomodate the increased amperage. A 15A breaker > > requires 14 guage wire. A 20A breaker requires 12 guage wire. Putting a > > 20A breaker on 14 guage wire is flirting with disaster. > > I would not call it "flirting with disaster", but it is not a good > idea. The chances of a fire breaking out under this circumstance is damn > small, but it is there. I would not take the chance, personally. Maybe it's because I own my home and I happen to like living in it and all the stuff I've accumulated thus far in my life ;) It's not that much work to run the correct wiring. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 16:51:03 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:51:03 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/11/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I would not take the chance, personally. Maybe it's because I own my home > and I happen to like living in it and all the stuff I've accumulated thus > far in my life ;) It's not that much work to run the correct wiring. Agreed. I installed a 30A breaker, and a Hubbel Twist-n-Lock 30A receptacle in my basement to power the 8300. No short cuts there. -ethan From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Jul 11 16:58:25 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:58:25 -0500 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050711165551.0251f230@mail.ubanproductions.com> On 7/11/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I would not take the chance, personally. Maybe it's because I own my home > and I happen to like living in it and all the stuff I've accumulated thus > far in my life ;) It's not that much work to run the correct wiring. Not to mention that if there were a problem, the insurance company might not pay the claim, indicating the person who replaced the breaker with the incorrect value as liable... --tom From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jul 11 17:04:33 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:04:33 -0400 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: References: <000701c58638$5f6a74f0$6501a8c0@dementium> <42D2E02A.nailD4K11VHCA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <42D2ECF1.nailDI41Y9JC7@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > might not draw the stated 8A @ 120VAC. That's a "max" rating. Most DEC stuff from that era overstates power consumption/cooling required by a factor of 2 or 3 for site installation purposes. > Don't forget there are several square feet of layered circuits Oh, yeah, certainly. Some of it is VLSI, other (read channel) is ECL-like, and it does draw power. But look at the little exhaust fan on the back of the drive - it is not dissipating a kilowatt, but a few hundred watts. I got rid of all my RA8x stuff around about 1996 or so. But I had no problem running 4 drives simultaneously on a 20A kitchen circuit. (Sequenced spin-up, of course.) Along with a 11/730. Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jul 11 17:07:24 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:07:24 -0400 Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050711165551.0251f230@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050711165551.0251f230@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <42D2ED9C.nailDJK1AGRTA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > indicating the person who replaced the breaker with the incorrect > value as liable... On a tangential note, is it possible to "lean" on a typical household breaker to stop it from tripping? Sort-of-like "battle override" on a Navy ship... Or is the lever only good for resetting, and holding it will not stop it from tripping? I think the latter but I've never tried it for real. Tim. From florit at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 17:09:55 2005 From: florit at gmail.com (Louis Florit) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:09:55 -0400 Subject: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? Message-ID: <46e70d050507111509710d6a3c@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I pulled out my 64-sx out of the box it's been stored with in anticipation of getting my JiffyDos upgrade installed into it. To my dismay, when I plugged it all in and powered it on, the keyboard wouldn't work properly. Any of the keys have to be pressed multiple times (3 to 10 times) in order to get the character to show up on screen. Any suggested remedies? I'm wondering if the keyboard contacts are just a little dirty and need a little cleaning, but I wanted to check with the gurus before prying it apart. Thanks, Louis -- Louis Florit AIM: lflorit MSN:louis_florit at hotmail.com Y!: indygolunaria From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Jul 11 17:15:07 2005 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:15:07 -0400 Subject: LAXXR Ribbons In-Reply-To: References: <42D257BB.18809.2D5759B0@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20050711181318.01f001e8@mail.itm-inst.com> Whist digging around looking for something else, I ran across a box in my junk collection that has 6 new LAXXR ribbons (these are for the LA120 and LA180 printers.) They're still sealed in the original packaging so they're probably OK. Before I dump 'em on eBay is anyone interested in them? -Rick From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 17:17:50 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 23:17:50 +0100 Subject: international shipping In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D85@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D85@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Sent: 8-7-2005 22:08 > Subject: international shipping > > Can anyone tell me the best way to have something shipped from say > England or the Netherlands (or Germany). Or even Brazil/Argentina. Or > even Australia. I know it's not ever going to be cheap, but when you > calculate 20 or so pounds from S.America - $300+, I figure there must be > a better way. > For those of you who already don't know it, FedEx usually beats UPS by > a mile at domestic postage. Perhaps half in alot of cases. But they > don't cover as many areas as it seems UPS does. >From the UK, apparnetly BAX Global have good prices. http://www.baxglobal.com Never used them myself, but I have a friend who ships 100lb+ equipment all over the world regularly, who speaks highly of them. Ed. From dhbarr at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 17:27:05 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:27:05 -0500 Subject: Any 3B2/310 owners in here? In-Reply-To: <42D20CEE.7080304@jbrain.com> References: <42D20CEE.7080304@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 7/11/05, Jim Brain wrote: [snip] I also secured a > 3B2/310. Alas, I'm not at all up on this type of machine. Google > brought up some information, but I'd appreciate any personal anecdotes > or information. http://dhbarr.freeshell.org/booklist.html is the list of docs that came with my 3b2/300 from a retired AT&T engineer. Let me know if you need something in particular looked up or scanned. I believe there's also a free TCP/IP setup available via google, or you can put NetBSD on these things if you have no other choice. SDF ran on just such a setup for several years. -dhbarr. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Mon Jul 11 17:32:17 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 18:32:17 -0400 Subject: international shipping In-Reply-To: References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1D85@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <42D2F371.nailDP911SMN4@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > FedEx usually beats UPS by a mile at domestic postage. Things are complicated by the discounts offered to corporate shippers, especially if they consolidate their shipments or co-locate at a FedEx/UPS hub. But for the average schmoe, these are non-factors. Up until a year or two ago I got 10% discounts on FedEx non-international shipments because I had a corporate AmEx card, but I think this has either been eliminated or scaled back to the point where it doesn't count. If you're a small business and you want to ship via UPS, you have to pay for the privilege of having an account and then more for a daily pick-up. Tim. From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jul 11 17:37:01 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:37:01 -0500 Subject: Sigh! References: <200507111552.j6BFqpZ6033959@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <022b01c58669$0f516dd0$3e406b43@66067007> I already had his site bookmarked and I purchased some items from a few years back. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Director" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 10:43 AM Subject: Sigh! >I don't quite know what to say about this: > > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/6241/univac.html > > Gil > > A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director > The Museum at CSE > Coach - ICPC Programming Team > University of Texas at Arlington > Department of Computer Science & Engineering > Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street > Arlington, TX 76019 > 817-272-3620 > http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ > > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jul 11 17:27:22 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 23:27:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: shoppa_classiccmp@trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) "Re: Power and the RA82" (Jul 11, 18:07) References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050711165551.0251f230@mail.ubanproductions.com> <42D2ED9C.nailDJK1AGRTA@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <10507112327.ZM11677@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jul 11 2005, 18:07, Tim Shoppa wrote: > On a tangential note, is it possible to "lean" on a typical household > breaker to stop it from tripping? Sort-of-like "battle override" on > a Navy ship... Or is the lever only good for resetting, and holding > it will not stop it from tripping? I think the latter but I've never > tried it for real. It may depend on the breaker. Some of our domestic RCD breakers can't be held in, but the normal MCBs on domestic mains distribution panels can. I used to hold in the 20A breaker on the circuit to my 19A UPS for a second or two whenever it was switched back on, because otherwise the switch-on surge tripped the breaker (class D breakers like we have in machine rooms at work don't have that trip problem). Oh, and if you don't think a 19A UPS is very big, remember it's 240VAC in the UK. That's 4.5KW, enough to keep quite a few RA82s running. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 11 17:43:24 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 17:43:24 -0500 Subject: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? In-Reply-To: <46e70d050507111509710d6a3c@mail.gmail.com> References: <46e70d050507111509710d6a3c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/11/05, Louis Florit wrote: > Hi, I pulled out my 64-sx out of the box it's been stored with in > anticipation of getting my JiffyDos upgrade installed into it. To my > dismay, when I plugged it all in and powered it on, the keyboard > wouldn't work properly. Any of the keys have to be pressed multiple > times (3 to 10 times) in order to get the character to show up on > screen. > > Any suggested remedies? I'm wondering if the keyboard contacts are > just a little dirty and need a little cleaning, but I wanted to check > with the gurus before prying it apart. Unfortunately, the SX-64 keyboard is made entirely differently than PET and C-64 keyboards... the SX keyboard is layers of mylar with printed traces. The traces have been known to oxidize over time, rendering the keyboard inert. You can try to be as careful as you can, but I have seen plenty of dead keyboards from attempts to repair, and have never seen a successfully repaired keyboard. If you manage to work out a successful technique, please share it with us. I myself have two SX-64s, two good keyboards and two dead keyboards (neither by my hand). One possible solution would be to wire up an appropriate switch matrix to a the correct DB25 pinout and completely replace the native SX-64 keyboard. It would be functional, but not as portable. I don't want to say there's zero chance of repairing the original keyboard, but it would be an accomplishment to do so. -ethan From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jul 11 18:10:58 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 19:10:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Power and the RA82 In-Reply-To: <17106.55039.24674.563853@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > Note that 20 amp requires 12 gauge copper. In homes of the right > (wrong?) age, you may find 12 gauge aluminum -- that's legal only for > 15 amps. If you want aluminum and 20 amps, you'll need 10 gauge -- > plus components rated for aluminum wire, which are generally somewhere > between rare and nonexistent, and often very expensive. Anyone living in a house with Al wiring should either move out or replace it all with copper. Awful stuff. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jul 11 18:13:36 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Commodore 64-sx Keyboard getting stuck? Message-ID: <200507112313.QAA27188@clulw009.amd.com> Hi That sounds similar to the keyboard on my Sun at work ( the one I'm typing on now ). About 3 years ago, I spilt Dr. Pepper on it. It immediately stopped working. I took it apart and washed the layers one at a time and dried them. It is still working today. I can imagine that replacing missing traces would be a little more difficult. I'd think that the current through most of the wires is quite low and one might try using some of the repair stuff for windshield heaters. If that didn't work, a last resort might be to use some small wire wrap wire and melt a channel into the plastic layer to keep from deforming the stack of sheets to much. Just some thoughts. Dwight >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >On 7/11/05, Louis Florit wrote: >> Hi, I pulled out my 64-sx out of the box it's been stored with in >> anticipation of getting my JiffyDos upgrade installed into it. To my >> dismay, when I plugged it all in and powered it on, the keyboard >> wouldn't work properly. Any of the keys have to be pressed multiple >> times (3 to 10 times) in order to get the character to show up on >> screen. >> >> Any suggested remedies? I'm wondering if the keyboard contacts are >> just a little dirty and need a little cleaning, but I wanted to check >> with the gurus before prying it apart. > >Unfortunately, the SX-64 keyboard is made entirely differently than >PET and C-64 keyboards... the SX keyboard is layers of mylar with >printed traces. The traces have been known to oxidize over time, >rendering the keyboard inert. You can try to be as careful as you >can, but I have seen plenty of dead keyboards from attempts to repair, >and have never seen a successfully repaired keyboard. If you manage >to work out a successful technique, please share it with us. I myself >have two SX-64s, two good keyboards and two dead keyboards (neither by >my hand). > >One possible solution would be to wire up an appropriate switch matrix >to a the correct DB25 pinout and completely replace the native SX-64 >keyboard. It would be functional, but not as portable. I don't want >to say there's zero chance of repairing the original keyboard, but it >would be a